Subject: Re: Were potatoes and tomatoes discovered in the Americas?

From: [email-masked] (Keith F. Lynch)
Date: 28 Jan 1994 11:48:24 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
Brian W. Ogilvie <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Most true beans, except for the fava bean, are also American natives.

What was Herodotus referring to when he said the Egyptians didn't
eat beans?  Presumably this implied that Greeks did eat beans.  What
kind of beans?  Thanks.
-- 
Keith Lynch, [email-masked]

f p=2,3:2 s q=1 x "f f=3:2 q:f*f>p!'q  s q=p#f" w:q p,?$x\8+1*8

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From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 28 Jan 1994 20:46:56 -0500

>eat beans?  Presumably this implied that Greeks did eat beans.  What

The only beans I'm aware of being used in the Mediterranean basin in
the Middle Ages are favas, lentils, chickpeas, and sweet peas.  Harold
McGee, in _On Food and Cooking_, claims that "the broad bean, also
called fava or faba bean, was the only bean known to Europe until the
discovery of the New World."
However, Platina's 1475 _De Honesta Voluptate_ mentions six different
beans, which in the translation I have are "broad bean", "chick-pea",
"little chick-pea", "pea", "kidney bean", and "lentil".  I presume the
"kidney bean" is a mistranslation.  I've seen ample other evidence for
green peas in England before 1492.  Chickpeas were certainly used in
Moslem Spain, if not in Christian Europe.

Re Egypt: Platina specifically says the broad bean grows in Egypt, but
doesn't mention whether the Egyptians actually eat it.  A cookbook
from Moslem Spain refers to "Egyptian beans"; I don't know that these
are favas, but they're definitely not lentils because lentils also
appear in the same recipe.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Nick Maclaren)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 14:18:48 GMT

>eat beans?  Presumably this implied that Greeks did eat beans.  What

There was a long thread on this getting on for a year back.  The original
statement is true but misleading.  The reason that it is true is that the
current food beans are dominated by the french/red/kidney/haricot/etc.
bean, which is an American native.  The reason that is is misleading is
that there are dozens of true beans native to the old world that were,
and still are, used as food.

I am no expert, but I would have assumed that Herodotus was referring to
the fava/broad/field bean, which is still a staple article of diet in
Egypt and surrounding countries and is widely grown throughout Europe.

Curiously, it is almost unknown in the Americas, despite having several
advantages.  For example, it is one of the few that will grow when frost
is normal throughout the year; most others are killed by even light frost.
This is one reason that traditional European bean recipes are hard to
repeat in the USA - the older ones are often based on this sort of bean.

Nick Maclaren
University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street,
Cambridge CB2 3QG, England.
Email:  [email-masked]
Tel.:   +44 223 334761
Fax:    +44 223 334679

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From: [email-masked] (David Allen)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 14:23:49 +0000

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:

"What was Herodotus referring to when he said the Egyptians didn't
"eat beans?  Presumably this implied that Greeks did eat beans.  What
"kind of beans?  Thanks.

An interesting point, because today the Israelis make falafel from
chickpeas, but the Egyptians make them from dried broad (i.e. fava) beans.

Somewhere along the line the Egyptian cuisine has caught up!

-- 
David Allen, Librarian
The Horniman Museum and Gardens
LONDON SE23 3PQ
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Timothy Watson)
Date: 29 Jan 1994 19:04:52 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Nick Maclaren) writes:

I'm not sure, but I do remember seeing these labeled as "fava" beans for the
benefit of the spanish-speaking populace of a certain city (Providence). If I
am not forgetful, these seemed to be the type of bean which is often called
"Lima" beans in the US.

--
        Timothy M. Watson             |She told me I seemed a wonderful
     [email-masked]         |compassionate passionate person.
  BioEngineering Program Grad Student |I told her "person" was as far as I
       Interest: Medical Imaging      |was willing to go. - R. Cherubini

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From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 30 Jan 1994 13:27:35 -0500

>[email-masked] (Nick Maclaren) writes:
>

>am not forgetful, these seemed to be the type of bean which is often called

No, fava beans are NOT the same as lima beans.  Fava beans are the
same shape, but about half again the size of lima beans, and medium
brown in color.  Depending on your source, they may also have a tough,
inedible, dark brown outer shell around each bean (I don't know
whether limas have such a shell; I've never raised them).

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 30 Jan 94 16:25:32 -0600

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Nick Maclaren) writes:
> repeat in the USA - the older ones are often based on this sort of bean.
Part of the reason that favas are looked at a bit askance here is a fairly
high incidence of a defective gene for (? glycosylation... sorry, I've
forgotten)... in certain communities.  I grew up in a Sicilian/American
community with some families affected by favism... I also remember going
to a funeral of a little boy who died after unknowingly eating some 
"wrong bean" salad.

Kay Klier    Biology Dept   UNI

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 30 Jan 94 17:07:48 -0600

> am not forgetful, these seemed to be the type of bean which is often called

Nope.  Limas (Phaseolus lunatus) are South American natives.  Fava beans
are Vicia faba.  They do look a bit alike, though, in the shelled state.

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From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 31 Jan 1994 00:11:41 -0500

>to a funeral of a little boy who died after unknowingly eating some 

A year or two ago, while visiting my retired-physician grandfather, I
took advantage of his library to look up favism.  The word actually
describes two different genetic anomalies -- the milder one more
prevalent in people of sub-Saharan-African (i.e. negro) descent, and
the serious, life-threatening one more prevalent in people with ancestry
from the Mediterranean, e.g. Sicilians, Greeks, Sephardic Jews.  The
problem, as I recall, was "hemolysis", which I translate as "breakdown
of blood cells" (NOTE: I have no medical training, so take that for
what it's worth).  Neither genetic trait is terribly common, and the
symptoms can be treated if recognized in time, but keep it in mind if
serving favas to people of either of these ethnic groups who have
never had them.

Now, can some medical type post what the symptoms would be, and any
first aid that can be given before the ambulance arrives?

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Jane Beckman)
Date: 3 Feb 94 00:51:02 GMT

>whether limas have such a shell; I've never raised them).
Obviously, you do not get British seed catalogs!  Actually,
limas are flatter, and the pods are flattened and do not have
the internal "fuzz" that fava (broad) beans have.  Also, fava
flowers have black blotches on the white, and are placed at
the leaf-nodes, rather than in panicles on a separate stalk.

However, the size of different varieties of favas varies
greatly, and the seeds may be brown, bronze, green, buff, or
cream, depending on the cultivar.  I have seen some with heavy
seed coats, and some with thin seed coats.

Quick--how big is a lima bean?  What color is it?  Are you
*sure*?  I have the feeling that gardeners and botanists are
fairly sparse in this group... 

--
  Jilara   [[email-masked]]
That's how freedom will end: not with a bang, but with a rustle of file
folders.  If you love any of your rights, defend all of them!
-Joe Chew, on the net

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From: [email-masked] (Sandra P. Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 03:23:00 GMT

>From about half an inch to an inch long, flatish, sort of like an
oval dented on one side. Pale green when fresh, white when dried.
I enjoy eating them steamed and buttered.

sph
-- 

                     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 3 Feb 94 12:59:21 -0600

> fairly sparse in this group... 

4-18 mm x 10-25+ mm; green, tan, yellow, white, brown, speckled or nearly
black.  The ones most commonly cultivated in North America are pale green.

Kay Klier  Biology Dept  UNI  (stray plant taxonomist)

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From: [email-masked] ()
Date: 3 Feb 1994 17:35:44 GMT

There's an excellent book on the influence the
americas had on the rest of the world in terms of
foodstuffs, metals, etc; it is called 'Indian Givers'.
Can't recall the author.

In this book he discusses, among other things, the
spread of potatoes from south america to the rest
of the world.  (Also corn, tobacco, and massive
quantities of silver; the book does not however
address the export of Beavis and Butthead to 
other cultures...)

-----------------------------------------
Chuck Narad -- diver/adventurer/engineer

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From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 3 Feb 1994 18:08:51 -0500

I wrote:
>>inedible, dark brown outer shell ....

Jane Beckman <[email-masked]> replied:
>...
>*sure*?

Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa! My definition of "lima bean" (since, as I
mentioned, I've never raised them) is the things I get in the grocery store
(or would if I bought them often; the ones in the grocery store often taste
like cardboard).  They are light green, and vary from 1.5-3 cm in major
axis.  I have no doubt that there are other cultivars around.

Likewise, my experience with favas is limited; the ones I've bought have
had either (a) dark brown outer shells and medium brown seeds, or
(b) shells removed before I saw them, and cream-colored beans.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Stephen Bloch)
Date: 8 Feb 1994 19:14:28 -0500

>foodstuffs, metals, etc; it is called 'Indian Givers'.

In a bookstore the other day I ran into the book accompanying the
Smithsonian Natural History exhibit "Seeds of Change", which (for those who
missed it) was a splendid exhibit of how the biological contact between Old
World and New has affected both since 1492.  If I remember right, the museum
exhibit concentrated on potatoes, maize, sugar (hence rum, hence slavery),
horses, and diseases.  The book is, of course, much more detailed, and
lavishly illustrated for the coffee table.  It looked quite interesting,
but I couldn't find a price tag so I didn't buy it.

-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (todd d ellner)
Date: 8 Feb 1994 22:49:27 -0800

I'd like to add my votes for two wonderful books by Raymond Sokolov:
"Why We Eat What We Eat" and ""Fading Feast".

Todd

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Feb 94 20:32:32 -0600

> but I couldn't find a price tag so I didn't buy it.

A vote for this one from students in my economic botany class...  and
I found it at a Half Price Books (a chain of remaindered/used books stores)
for $4 for a paperback copy...

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From: [email-masked] (In nature is the salvation of mankind.)
Date: 12 Feb 1994 06:57:50 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>>> Have you read "The Columbian Exchange" or "Biological Imperialism" by 
>>> Crosby? They are both excellent monographs on this subject. I actually
>>> believe that "The Columbian Exchange" was a bit of a ground breaker in
>>> its time. Anyway, happy reading. :)

/sg/

-- 
***********************************************************************  ____
"There are no victories, in all our histories, without love." - Sting    \  /
	    Support Gay Rights! Human Rights NOW! Free Tibet!             \/
***********************************************************************

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From: [email-masked] (Stephanie Tai)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 21:35:19 GMT

>"Why We Eat What We Eat" and ""Fading Feast".
Waitasec!  "Fading Feast"?  Is that really new or did I just miss it or
something?  I've read _Why We Eat What We Eat_ and it was _wonderful_.
Tell me about _Fading Feast_!

					-steph, 
					who's pretty psyched and wants
					to find the book now

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From: [email-masked] (todd d ellner)
Date: 12 Feb 1994 22:28:28 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>,
>Tell me about _Fading Feast_!

_Fading Feast_ is not a new book. I think it was written in the late
70's. It is about regional U.S. cuisines, dishes, traditions, and ingredients.
At the time they things in question were disappearing. Some have been
revived, some have headed further down the road to extinction. Wonderful
if sometimes wistful book. Full of gratuitous food porn.

Todd
70's. It is a

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From: [email-masked] (Stephanie Tai)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 23:55:30 GMT

>if sometimes wistful book. Full of gratuitous food porn.

Ooh!  Gratuitous food port is fun.  ;)  Though being written in the 70's
probably explains why I didn't hear about it coming out.  (I was younger
than 7 in the seventies.)

					-steph