Subject: Re: acorns as food

From: [email-masked]
Date: 31 Aug 1996 12:44:56 GMT

[email-masked] (Ellen Smith) wrote:
>[email-masked] (Joe A. Koesler) wrote:
>
>Poisonous? You sure? I feed them to my mother-in-law for snacks
>and she's never gonna die. Blows that little theory doesn't it?
>

my boyfriend (avid outdoors guys whos eaten just about 
everything....havent asked about grubs yet - <smirk>) says that acorns 
have tons of tanic <sp> acid.  if you ARE going to use them, he says they 
have to go through multiple soakings in order to draw this acid out.  he 
says the tast isnt worth the effort

----  mary, city girl learning about back woods things...

---

From: [email-masked] (Ellen Smith)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:54:00 GMT

>>>>and she's never gonna die. Blows that little theory doesn't it?
Actually, mary, i wrote that. but luckily due to lots of e-mail and my
new friend Madeline <waves, hi maddie :)> I figured out how to post.
Sorta.
Your boyfriend sounds neat. I suggest you explore the backwoods
together, and if you do :), I'm sure you'll be very happy.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jay Mann)
Date: 2 Sep 1996 04:15:41 GMT

Joe A. Koesler ([email-masked]) wrote:
: First you have to leach out the tannic acid or it will be too bitter.
: Place the pulp in a jelly bag and in a collander, rinse with cold
: water untill the pulp is slightly sweet to the taste with no
: bitterness. Then spread on a cookie sheet and dry in a low oven untill
: the moisture is evaporated. Then use as an additive to flour or as a
: porrage. If you don't leach the nuts they are POISONOUS.....if you
: could stand to eat the bitter things. I'l look for the issue of Mother
[snip]

Consider the remarkable fact that so many poisonous chemicals made by
plants taste bitter to us. Why?  Are the tastebuds early-warning systems
that react biochemically to poisonous chemicals? Or (my preference) is it
a "choice" by plants to select for easily detectable poisons?  There is no
shortage of undetectable plant-made toxins, but the trouble is that the
ultimately dead or ill animal will already have consumed the plant. 
Whereas a bitter chemical gives a warning to the animal, and eventually
many animals will learn to associate a bad taste with a subsequent bout 
of illness.

Jay D Mann  <[email-masked]>
Christchurch, New Zealand

---

From: [email-masked] (Mark J. Cintala)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 06:33:45 GMT

george erdosh <[email-masked]> wrote:

>[email-masked] (jordi juan-tresserras) wrote:
>>I am working in a study about the acorn use as human food in the
>>Iberian Peninsula and the Maghreb area. If anyone know some
>>bibliographic references or some recipes (porridge, stews, cakes,
>>..), please let me know.
>>Thanks in advance for your collaboration,
>>Yours,
>>
>>Jordi
>>

- snip -

Well, gee.  I never really thought about using acorns for food
(seriously, anyway), but this is pretty interesting.  I just checked
my copy of "Edible Wild Plants" by Lee Allen Peterson (one of the
Peterson Field Guides), and here's what it says:

"Although a few white oaks have acorns sweet enough to be eaten raw or
roasted, most oaks have extremely bitter acorns.  Happily, the
bitterness is due to an abundance of tannin which is readily soluble
in water.  Whole kernels, stripped of their shells and boiled in
repeated changes of water until the water no longer turns brown, can
be roasted and eaten as nuts or dipped in sugar syrup and eaten as
candy.  Dried and crushed acorns can be placed in porous bags and put
through [the] same boiling process to remove the tannin.  They can
then be redried, ground into meal, and used to make excellent breads
and muffins.  Rich in protein and fat."

So there, I guess.  I have to add that my *own* experience with
wild-plant types is that their taste buds have been won over by the
Dark Side, and one has to consider this when "tasty," "excellent,"
"really good," and similar terms are used to describe various
"edibles."  (Please note: I have eaten stuff on a pseudosurvival trip
that I'd rather not talk about, so I *have* tried weird stuff.)  For
example, a Ewell Gibbons disciple says "it's pretty good."  My take on
things: This person thinks a root canal is a neat way to spend leisure
time.

I believe Marcy.

Mark

Mark J. Cintala        | I speak for myself, I guess.
[email-masked]     | Wait a minute -- lemme check...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 20:02:23 GMT

>[email-masked]     | Wait a minute -- lemme check...

well out here in california the native americans used them as a food
source and if memory servers me right there are some books on native
american cooking I know that they used to crush them into a meal and
make a tortia (hope i spelled that right) out of them

happy trails robert

---

From: [email-masked] (CarloG1106)
Date: 2 Sep 1996 18:29:52 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Jay
Mann) writes:

> There is no

To take this behaviorism subject a little further.  A cousin might have
observed this unfortunate incident and remove this undesirable plant from
its list of edibles and start a trend.  Thereby, this eccentric would
training the neuro-net.

Black Jacobin
Timbuktu, Mali

---

From: "Arthur A. Simon, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 19:20:17 -0500

David J. Gillen wrote:
>>>>>snips<<<<<<<<<<<<

Acorns, as I recall were not usually the starch of choice.
However, on the left coast, there were NA tribes whose primary
starch sources were oaks. (I'm going back some years here). Yes,
acord meat is loaded wtih tannin and is therefore bitter. Yet,
this can be leached out and a (hey, it won't kill ya!) suitable
[read survival] flour or meal produced. Our science fairs almost
always produce at least one display on acorn flour (with muffins)
or, almost as popular, cattail tubers. (complete with sand...the 
kids *never* wash them completely.)

As to white oaks:

They're the ones with the rounded leaves rather than pointed;
the latter are "black oaks". Look at the emblem of the Nature
Conservency. Those are whites.

But why punish yourself? Having discovered wheat and corn, who
makes acorn meal except as a dietary hair-shirt? Or maybe for
cultural or ritual reasons?

<please, no flames, just trying to cut through the *fog*>

Art, (as amateur cultural [food] anthropologist.)

>**************************************************************************
> > >
> > There was an excellent article on acorn in Discover, Aug/96, p.45-50. No
> > references given but you could contact the author.
> >
> >

---

From: [email-masked] (B. Keith Ryder)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:09:50 GMT

Jay Mann ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Consider the remarkable fact that so many poisonous chemicals made by
: plants taste bitter to us. Why?  Are the tastebuds early-warning systems
: that react biochemically to poisonous chemicals? Or (my preference) is it
: a "choice" by plants to select for easily detectable poisons?  There is no
: shortage of undetectable plant-made toxins, but the trouble is that the
: ultimately dead or ill animal will already have consumed the plant. 
: Whereas a bitter chemical gives a warning to the animal, and eventually
: many animals will learn to associate a bad taste with a subsequent bout 
: of illness.

Doubt it -- very little of nature is so altruistic.  Consider that when
an animal eats, for example, a strawberry, most of the seeds pass
through the digestive tract unharmed, thereby potentially spreading
the seed around.  Therefore, a good-tasting strawberry entices the animal
to eat more and spread the seed.  A good thing.

Conversely, eating an acorn destroys the seed, stopping any chance that
seed might have to make a new tree.  A bad thing.  Therefore, oak trees
with good-tasting acorns would have fewer chances of successful propogation,
and may, in the extreme, become extinct (and would at least not have
as many "offspring" as a bad-tasting variety).

The tree cares far more about self-preservation than it does about
protecting animals from poisoning themselves.

-- 

BKeith
------
B. Keith Ryder        |   Outside of the killings, Washington has one of
[email-masked]     |   the lowest crime rates in the country.
                      |       -- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC

---

From: [email-masked] (Depree, Jonathan A)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:16:45

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Jay Mann) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (Jay Mann)
>Subject: Re: acorns as food
>Date: 2 Sep 1996 04:15:41 GMT

>many animals will learn to associate a bad taste with a subsequent bout 

A little of both I suspect, bitter poison will stop an animal before it has 
eaten too much of the plant, and well adapted taste buds allow us to detect 
when a plant is poisonous. Consider that potatoes are good food unless they 
are green, whereupon they turn bitter.
It's a long time since I looked at that stuff, but I believe that the 
edibility test for plants includes checking for bitter taste or 
peppery/burning sensation. Either of these indicate that the plant is 
probably poisonous (Note: Dont try this at home!). It doesn't work with fungi.

Bitterness isn't necessary to identify poison. Rats, and many other animals 
experiment with a new food source by eating a very small amount of it. If it 
makes them sick they leave it alone in future. This is called 'becoming bait 
-shy'.

Regards,

Jonathan Depree

---

From: [email-masked] (Mrs. Latricia Fahringer)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:01:27 GMT

>: a "choice" by plants to select for easily detectable poisons?  

Does anyone on this Thread have the word tealology in thier
Vocabulary? I would like to suggest that niether plants, nor any other
portion of Evolution, Makes "Choices". It simply occurs, those things
which are more condussive to sucess at reproduction get naturally
selected.

---

From: Mary Elizabeth <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:41:45 -0400

> which are more condussive to sucess at reproduction get naturally

No, but I have the word "teleology", if you mean the one that isn't
deontology.  It's been a long time since I had Intro to Philosophy.

MEB

---

From: [email-masked] (Jay Mann)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 02:05:31 GMT

Distribution: 

Mrs. Latricia Fahringer ([email-masked]) wrote:
[spelling corrected]
: Does anyone on this Thread have the word telology in thier
: Vocabulary? I would like to suggest that neither plants, nor any other
: portion of Evolution, Makes "Choices". It simply occurs, those things
: which are more conducive to sucess at reproduction get naturally
: selected.

sorry, I do know about teleology, but use the term "choices" as a 
shorthand way of stating that plants doing such-and-such are more 
successful than (now extinct) relatives that did it a different way.  But 
I still ask why some plants (e.g. leguminous seeds) survive with what 
would seem to be indetectable toxins.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jay Mann)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 01:54:27 GMT

B. Keith Ryder ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Jay Mann ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : Consider the remarkable fact that so many poisonous chemicals made by
: : plants taste bitter to us. Why?  Are the tastebuds early-warning systems
: : that react biochemically to poisonous chemicals? Or (my preference) is it
: : a "choice" by plants to select for easily detectable poisons?  There is no
: : shortage of undetectable plant-made toxins, but the trouble is that the
: : ultimately dead or ill animal will already have consumed the plant. 
: : Whereas a bitter chemical gives a warning to the animal, and eventually
: : many animals will learn to associate a bad taste with a subsequent bout 
: : of illness.
: 
: Doubt it -- very little of nature is so altruistic.  Consider that when
: an animal eats, for example, a strawberry, most of the seeds pass
: through the digestive tract unharmed, thereby potentially spreading
: the seed around.  Therefore, a good-tasting strawberry entices the animal
: to eat more and spread the seed.  A good thing.
: 
: Conversely, eating an acorn destroys the seed, stopping any chance that
: seed might have to make a new tree.  A bad thing.  Therefore, oak trees
: with good-tasting acorns would have fewer chances of successful propogation,
: and may, in the extreme, become extinct (and would at least not have
: as many "offspring" as a bad-tasting variety).
: 
: The tree cares far more about self-preservation than it does about
: protecting animals from poisoning themselves.

I never implied any altruistic motivation on the part of plants, merely 
the observation that bitterness usually is associated with toxicity.  
There are lots of acorns on an oak tree, so even a nondetectable but 
lethal poison might suffice to reduce the local population of 
acorn-eaters.  Perhaps the "choice" between detectable and indetectable 
poison is dictated by the size of the seed-eating population.  If there 
is in effect an inexhaustible supply of seed-eaters, then a bitter toxin 
is far better for the tree than an indetectable one.  

Contrast this with the lectins of dried common beans, which are quite 
indetectable (at least to humans).  They seem to be entirely satisfactory 
in reducing the number of bean-eating insects to a tolerable level.

---

From: [email-masked] (Madelin Holtkamp)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:53:26 +0100

Acorns have been used extensively for food.  Here in California they were
a staple food of the Pomo Indians and other California native American
tribes.  It is one of the ways that the whites starved and conquered
them--by releasing their pigs to forage in the woods for acorns and
decimating the supply.  

Mostly the nuts were shelled and leached, then roasted or ground into
meal.  There is a cookbook written by a local person within the last few
years that has both processing and instructions for different
preparations.  The title escapes me right now, but a search of books in
print might turn it up.

I do not know much about the Iberian peninsula, but I imagine that they
used acorns in similar ways.  Around here, white oaks are still called
bread oaks.

---

From: [email-masked] (jordi juan-tresserras)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:58:01 GMT

Thanks everybody for the references, mainly about USA acorn
processing. I send some traditional acorn recipes from my
ethnobotanical work in Spain. All of them are in Spanish, and they are
specially from Extremadura. In this area of Spain they also prepara a
sweet acorn wine named LICOR DE BELLOTA.

CREMA DE BELLOTAS

150 gr de bellotas hervidas
4 cucharadas de miel o 6 de azucar
6 huevos
1 litro de leche

Se ponen a cocer las bellotas en agua. Se pelan y se pasan por el
pasapuerés. Se añade la leche, los huevos y la miel. Se revuelve y se
pone al fuego sin dejar de revolver, y se retira antes de quea
arranque a hervir.

----------------------------

GACHAS (de lo mas simple)

150 gr de harina de bellotas
1 poco de agua

Se tostaba la harina y se añadia poco o poco el agua para consolidar
las gachas revolviendo continuamente la preparacion. Se podian hacer
recias o en forma de gachas claras como sopas. En este ultimo caso se
añadian trozos de pan seco cortados en trozos.

Se podian preparar tambien con aliño que podia ser desde un poco de
grasa (de cerdo, oveja o cabra) a un sofrito de verduras y/o carne
magra o tocino.

Tambien se podian hacer dulces añadiendo miel de caldera, azucar,...
acompañandose a veces con torreznos de pan frito.

-----------------------

BELLOTAS ASADAS
(especialmente con bellotas secas almacenadas en hoyos, cestas, cajas)

Se procede a hacer un pequeño corte en la piel de la bellota (como
tambien se hace para las castañas) y se colocan en el tamboril o una
sarten agujereada.

-------------------------------

TORTITAS DE BELLOTA (festiva)

1 tazon de harina de bellota
1/2 tazon de harina de trigo
levadura 
sal
1 tazon y medio de leche
aceite o grasa

Mezclar las harinas, la levadura y la sal. Añadir un huevo y la leche.
Batir y preparar una especie de crema. Dejar reposar. Freir formando
hojuelas (como crepes) y servir con miel o azucar.
----------------

GUISAO BELLOTERO

1/2 kg de bellotas
1kg de costilla de cerdo
1 trozo de morro
1 chorizos
1 cebolla, 
1 tomate
grasa
caldo

Se poden a cocer las castañas. Se pelan. En una cazuela se pone un
poco de grasa y se sofrien un poco. Se reservan. En la misma cazuela
se friend la costilla de cerdo cortada a trozos, el morro y el
chorizo. A continuación se añaden las bellotas, la cebolla y el tomate
cortados, asi como un poco de caldo (o agua) y se dejan cocer a fuego
bajo junto al hogar.

Jordi

---

From: "Arthur A. Simon, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 20:04:09 -0500

Jay Mann wrote:

========================

Jay, please consider::

Perhaps:

The tree's don't *know" what's attacking them. BUT!!!
Certain strains will produce *stuff* that tastes bad.
Hey, How about prickly pear! Spines are more physical,
but otherwise no more genetically different. Animals stop
eating you, you get to beget!

That simple.

It's called evolutionary pressure! It also works in anthropology.

Anyone out there *EVER* heard of Le Chatelier's Principle?

It's the next best rule to Occam's "you-know-what"!

Can we talk?

Art

(apologia! I thought I was Re:NG. So, you and I, for the mo')

Your thoughts?

---

From: [email-masked] (Shankar Bhattacharyya)
Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:04:35 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,

>the observation that bitterness usually is associated with toxicity.  

Perhaps the evolution is on the acorn-eater side? Let's say the oak
develops a toxin that harms likely attackers. The attackers that
develop an ability to detect the toxin survive, the others croak, as
they say in evolutionary biology. Then the oak hasn't evolved to be
distasteful. The attacking community has evolved to be able to detect
the toxin. Ultimately, of course, these arguments are related by a
certain kind of symmetry.

>  If there 

I won't argue with that.

>in reducing the number of bean-eating insects to a tolerable level.

Maybe the insects find them objectionable? Presumably there is
evolutionary advantage in that to the bugs.

Actually, I assume this is known. As long as you can extract the
lectins in reasonably intact form, it should be easy to check that
theory.

- Shankar

---

From: [email-masked] (Keith Rickert)
Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:09:20 GMT

>certain kind of symmetry.

For another kind of argument, remember that toxins dont evolve out of
thin air.  Probably most toxins started as either byproducts or
metabolic substances created by a plants biochemistry.
Substances which had either a bad taste or an ability to make the
eater ill gave some plants a selective advantage, but this has to be 
balanced against the energy cost of making compounds that may not
be directly useful.
In this context, there is little to be gained by continuing to
refine a toxin until it reaches lethal levels.

Also note that most of these compounds taste bitter because they
share common elements (a great many are alkaloids).  This may also
reflect the ease with which various pathways are co-opted to
produce toxins.

Keith
--
Keith Rickert                 | "It was the least I could do - a quantity
[email-masked]  |  I specialize in."
[email-masked]           |                   Major Dennis Bloodnok,
                              |                   Third Underwater Artillery

---

From: [email-masked] (Knut F{gri)
Date: 5 Sep 1996 13:37:08 GMT

Keith

There is another sideline to this related, to pollination ecology or dispersion
of seeds. Acorns tend to just drop straight down. If they all sprout there,
you are going to have some sort of oakish shrubbery with rather poor growing 
conditions. So the oak, like many other trees, is dependent on its seeds 
being spread by some sort of agent. Quite frequently this is an animal that 
eats some of the seeds and then ultimately passes some of them out at the other
end, undigested. Or it might be a squirrel who gathers acorns for winter feed
and the forgets where he put them. So you want to strike a fine balance 
here in many respects: Toxic enough to keep some organisms away, but still 
attractive to others. Digestible, but with a fair chance of some acorns 
escaping unharmed.

Isn't Mother nature wonderful the way she works things?

knutf

---

From: [email-masked] (Depree, Jonathan A)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:06:44

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Keith Rickert) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (Keith Rickert)
>Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:09:20 GMT

>refine a toxin until it reaches lethal levels.

Actually there is, a very potent toxin will kill an insect pest before it does 
significant damage to the plant. Some plant toxins are extremely 
poisonous, such as ricin (from castor bean seeds) which wasd used in an 
assassination some years ago. A lethal dose was contained in two holes 
drilled into a pellet about the size of the ball in the tip of a 
ball-point pen.
How the toxins evolved in the first place is an interesting question. I 
suspect that most are general purpose toxins able to defend against animals, 
insects and microorganisms. Plants have no immune system and they can't run 
away. They have to have some way of defending themselves.

>Also note that most of these compounds taste bitter because 
they>share common elements (a great many are alkaloids).  This may 
also>reflect the ease with which various pathways are co-opted to>produce 
toxins.

True.

Regards,

Jonathan Depree

---

From: "Arthur A. Simon, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:46:06 -0500

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
> I have been cooking with acorns for years now. It is much easier to
> use the acorns from the white oak but the red oak can be used. You
> just have to do couple of extra steps. I use them in muffins, breads,
> pankakes, ect...just about anywhere where you can use flour.
> 
> Of course, you have to be able to dry them and grind your own
> flour...unless you know someone who has  their own grinding mill and
> is willing to do it for you.
> 
> Elaine
> 
> [email-masked] (Nancy Dooley) wrote:
> 
> >In article <[email-masked]> "David J. Gillen" <[email-masked]> writes:
> >>From: "David J. Gillen" <[email-masked]>
> >>Date: 27 Aug 1996 23:44:41 GMT
> 
> >>I've read that acorns from the white oak are the preferred acorn by Native
> >>Americans and native deer.
> >>When you find out what to do with them let me know, I would like to try
> >>them out.  All I need to
> >>do is find a white oak!  Cheers
> 
> >>Dave Gillen
> >>[email-masked]
> 
> >The acorns from the oaks around here have little white worms in them.  My
> >neighbor's kid brought home a whole bunch from a number of trees by the
> >elementary school across the street and threw them in a dresser drawer.  A
> >week later, the drawer was full of white worms.  Ick.
> 
> >Nancy Dooley
> 
> >"Celebrate our State."  Iowa's Sesquicentennial year, 1846-1996.

===============\\

Right on, witch...

Forgot about the reds!

Well spoken.

Art