/pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills/food/sourdough/faqs/others breadcrust.faq clay.baking.pans corn cornbred.log kimchee kraut krautfaq.ftp krautpec.log krautrec.log muffins nixtamal proofbox rfs rfs.books rfs.breadmakers-mailing-list rfs.dutch-oven.sourdough rfs.faq-ftpsite rfs.gluten.definition rfs.grain-mill rfs.pure-rye.sourdough rfs.sourdough.w-o.gluten rye sauerkraut.making sauerkrt.faq sdryestr.rec sourd-cb sourd-cb.rye sourdogh sourdogh.log sourdough-gluten sourdough.cb sourdough.rye.starter starter-recipes.info tabasco.home-brew.faq waffiron wheatfre yogurt-faq yogurt-making.info /pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/newsgroups/rec.food.sourdough/misc Retrieve the INDEX file for a description of contents Article 1118 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail From: HF.MMX@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marilee Marshall) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Re: Bad Crust Date: 25 May 1993 07:58:51 -0700 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 24 Sender: news@morrow.stanford.edu Distribution: usa Message-ID: <1ttc7b$3oa@morrow.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu >My father wanted me to ask for some advice on how to duplicate a San >Francisco-type sourdough loaf. He has been unable to get quite the right >flavor and is far from satisfied with the texture of the crust. He is >using a Bulgarian yogurt culture. > There are several things needed to have the right crust... 1. Use a baking stone (pizza stone). This is a porous preheated surface that draws away moisture from the dough, adds additional baking from its preheated surface. 2. Instead of greasing the pan surface, sprinkle the surface with dry corn-meal or dry bread crumbs. 3. Periodically, during baking, throw some water on the bottom of the oven, or spray the bread with water to create steam. This helps create the characteristic tough chewy surface. Some people spray with salted water. 4. When done baking, be sure to cool on a rack so the moisture in the bread doesn't condensate on the bottom of the loaf. marilee at stanford From london@calypso Thu Mar 3 11:49:19 1994 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 17:30:05 -0500 From: Larry London To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!hermes.chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: Brick ovens (was Re: New book: "Bread A Message-ID: <1993Dec15.125249.26986@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 110 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2elcoc$s23@hpscit.sc.hp.com> Date: 15 Dec 93 12:52:49 CST In article s23@hpscit.sc.hp.com, chrisb@sc.hp.com (Chris Bostak) writes: | |That's right. Instead of buying a >$20 baking stone, I went down to Home |Depot and bought some fired clay (like brick) tiles for $0.52 each costing a |grand total of $2.08. I was originally a doubter that tiles would make a |difference, but they do. The bottom crust of my bread is thicker and harder |than ever before. Nice and chewy too! You know those gigantic clay pots you see sometimes at the garden store? The kind that look like small garbage cans? They have clay overflow trays that go underneath? Large as a pizza pan some of them are. One bread book I read recomended using these instead of baking stone. Nice Idea I thought. They come in one large piece and just the right shape. Price usually isn't that bad either. snip, snip,... |I still haven't figured out a way to get a top crust hard enough that when |it cools, it cracks. I've seen it happen in professional bakeries and I |won't rest until I can do it. My eternal gratitude to anyone that can tell |me how to do it. | |Chris Well I have never tried a clay stone because I have had such wonderful results with the Dutch ovens. I really love them. The basic Idea is that they recycle steam. The heavy lid keeps steam from the baking bread in the Dutch oven. The crust is the most like fancy store bought French bread I have ever had. In fact I think it is better! Cracks? Yes! Really try it! Borrow beg or steal a Dutch oven from someone today. Make up a nice batch of dough with only sourdough culture, water, flour, and salt. Ok here is more specifically how I do it: Saturday night about 10:00 pm: I remove the culture jar from the fridge. It has about 2 cups of culture in it. I pour it all out into a large tupperware bowl or old ice cream bucket. I scrape the bottle out and let it soak in hot water for easier cleaning later. I add 2 cups tepid water to the culture and 2 cups of high quality bread flour. This I stir for about 30 seconds. I wipe the knife I used to stir the brew on the side of the bowl to scrape any culture off. I rest the lid on the bowl and set it in the back of the oven to brew over night. I turn the oven light on to keep things warm. Then I go to bed. Sometimes I wash the jar out first. ;^) Sunday morning 6:00 am: I remove the bowl from the oven. I stir the contents. I use a small measuring cup and scoop one cup of culture into the culture jar which I have just cleaned. I add 1/2 cup of tepid water to the culture jar and 1/2 cup of flour and stir and set it on the back of the stove until much later. Now turning my attention to the bowl, I add a small palmful (about 1 tsp) of salt, and 3 cups of quality bread flour, and stir it well. I fill up the 1 cup measure to use to keep the kneading surface and my hands floured. I scoup the batter onto a floured surface and begin to knead. I work in a little of the flour at a time to keep my hands and the kneading surface clean and to firm up the dough a bit. I count out at least 600 heavy strokes. Sometimes I let it go to 1000 just for good measure. I get out my 12" Dutch oven and grease it thinly. Thin I form the dough into a ball and drop it into the Dutch oven. I let this sit in a cold spot (Ok room temperature or slightly cooler. At least 60 deg. F.) I go take a shower and help get the family ready for church. Sunday afternoon 1:00 pm. We get home from church. I turn the oven on to 400 deg. F. and warm it up for a couple of minutes. I move the Dutch oven into the oven and set the timer for 40 minutes. I take the culture jar from the back of the stove and put it in the fridge. Sunday afternoon 1:40 pm. The timer rings. I check the bread. If it has a light yellow golden color to the top crust I take it out. If it is still white I let it go another 5 or 10 min. Then using hot pads I tip the Dutch oven on it's side and let the loaf start to fall out. I catch it as it starts to move and with a quick twist help it to land right side up on the bread board. All souls present gather around immediately for slices of hot bread and fresh butter. It has basically become a Sunday tradition. If you really like clay maybe you could try a clay cooker? I have heard someone in the group uses that? I would like to hear a report. --- Sourdough and Ham KG0IO --David C. Adams internet: dadams@cray.com Statistician uunet: uunet!cray!dadams Cray Research Inc. packet: kg0io@tcman.#msp.mn.usa.noam Experience --> Identify --> Analyze --> Generalize 795 Article 795 (7 more) in rec.food.historic: From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) Date: 23 Nov 92 03:06:36 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900 Lines: 51 In article <1ekisoINNb0a@moe.ksu.ksu.edu> jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sande rs) writes: . . . > "Cole" flour was made in this way: common ashes were sifted into > a pot or kettle and heated until the ashes boiled like plaster of > paris; shelled corn was poured into the boiling ashes, and stirred > until the grain could be broken between the fingers. It was then > poured out into a sheet and sifted to separate the ashes from the > corn. The corn was then ground (we used steel mills) into meal, > and it was ready for use. It was eaten dry or stirred in water > or made into mush, and its use was very common in the early days > of Texas. > >Since the ashes are a source of lye, the meal produced by this method --MORE--(44%) >why go to all this trouble? Why not simply grind the plain corn? Is >there some advantage to corn treated in this way? . . . Yes. It's prophylaxis against pellagra. It's a long and interesting story, one you should be able to pursue yourself by looking up "pellagra". The outline is something like this: corn can be so inexpensive that the impoverished in some areas eat little else (current problem centers include parts of South Africa, lower Egypt, and southwestern India). Such people don't receive sufficient niacin, and they experience diarrhea, mental degeneration, and skin lesions. However, an alkaline environment mobilizes the niacin that is otherwise indigestibly bound in corn. Pel- lagra hasn't been a problem, apparently, among Native Americans for some thousands of years, because they share the cultural practice of ash-washing. --MORE--(80%) I've simplified the story. There are co-factors in the absorption of niacin, there's a sub-plot about the protein quality of corn, there is research on the chemistry that remains to be done, and there's plenty of social history. If we decide to discuss this more, we probably should cross-post to sci.bio or some other appropriate groups. -- Cameron Laird claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net) +1 713 267 7966 claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net) +1 713 996 8546 End of article 795 (of 795)--what next? [npq] 2266 Article 2266 (1 more) in misc.rural: From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu Message-ID: <1991Dec21.212937.1108@desire.wright.edu> Date: 22 Dec 91 02:29:37 GMT Organization: Wright State University Lines: 23 How to make Perfect Corn Bread 1 c sifted all-purpose flour 1/4 c sugar 4 teas. baking powder 3/4 teas. salt 1 c yellow cornmeal 2 eggs 1 c milk 1/4 c shortning (I always use melted butter) Sift flour with sugar, baking powder, and salt; stir in cornmeal. Add eggs, milk and shortning. Beat with rotary or electric beater or spoon --MORE--(71%) skillet (or if you have no iron skillet, use a greased 9x9x2 inch pan). It is much better cooked in cast iron! Bake at 425 degrees for 18 to 20 minutes, do not over bake, it will be too dry. ENJOY!! Sue End of article 2266 (of 2268)--what next? [npq] Article 301 (74 more) in rec.food.historic: From: adams@pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de (Adams) Sender: news@news.th-darmstadt.de (The Usenet-News System) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: martin@adpgate.UUCP's message of 13 Aug 92 20: 33:36 GMT Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:01:55 GMT References: <1992Aug12.170736.16583@hemlock.cray.com> <1490@adpplz.UUCP> Nntp-Posting-Host: pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de Organization: TH-Darmstadt Lines: 17 In article <1490@adpplz.UUCP> martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) writes: > the vegetables have aged. I'd like to have some dependable references on: German tradition and cook book: > Adding vinegar to a salt pickle Salted pickles (cocumbers, sliced beans, cabbage) ferment and produce lactic acid. If setup properly, no addition of vine or vinegar is necessary, neither to start fermantation nor afterwards. --MORE--(85%) Type h for help. End of article 301 (of 305)--what next? [npq] Article 301 (74 more) in rec.food.historic: From: adams@pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de (Adams) Sender: news@news.th-darmstadt.de (The Usenet-News System) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: martin@adpgate.UUCP's message of 13 Aug 92 20: 33:36 GMT Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:01:55 GMT References: <1992Aug12.170736.16583@hemlock.cray.com> <1490@adpplz.UUCP> Nntp-Posting-Host: pdv2.fmr.maschinenbau.th-darmstadt.de Organization: TH-Darmstadt Lines: 17 In article <1490@adpplz.UUCP> martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) writes: > the vegetables have aged. I'd like to have some dependable references on: German tradition and cook book: > Adding vinegar to a salt pickle Salted pickles (cocumbers, sliced beans, cabbage) ferment and produce lactic acid. If setup properly, no addition of vine or vinegar is necessary, neither to start fermantation nor afterwards. --MORE--(85%) Vinegar, salt and sugar shall prevent any fermantation. Some rely on some chemicals, most evaporate these kind of pickles. best adams End of article 301 (of 305)--what next? [npq] dadams@cherry10.cray.com (David Adams) writes: > The fermentation process started putting the vinegar in. ;^) Well, yes. (Interestingly, this is also the source of vinegar in sushi, 285 Article 285 (73 more) in rec.food.historic: From: martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) Message-ID: <1490@adpplz.UUCP> Date: 13 Aug 92 20:33:36 GMT References: <1992Aug12.170736.16583@hemlock.cray.com> Organization: ADP Dealer Services R&D, Portland, OR Lines: 50 >> And as long as we're on the subject, I've been looking into pickles, >> trying to figure out where they came from, and who started putting vinegar >> in them. dadams@cherry10.cray.com (David Adams) writes: > The fermentation process started putting the vinegar in. ;^) Well, yes. (Interestingly, this is also the source of vinegar in sushi, which was originally a fish preserved by pickling on rice; people in a hurry skipped the process and just vinegared the rice.) But: --MORE--(34%) > canning (or bottleing). This allowed the homemaker to > skip the brine curing or fermentation process. That's what _I_ thought originally, which was what started the project. I'd just helped a friend make eight dozen quarts of brined dills from an old family (Czech) recipe. _All_ the current US cookbooks I could find pickled primarily, or partially, with vinegar. I figured "Aha, part of the great home economics disaster" when most US food and cooking went to hell (those of you whose families preserved the real recipes, this is a thank you, not a flame). Except that canning was invented under the patronage of Napolean, and I've read an ancient Roman recipe that added vinegar to salted things. (It was the English translation of Apicius, I'll recheck it this evening). So, Cheerfully admitting that the predominance of vinegar in the US is due to the overofficiousness of the Ag. and home ec. people (who are the government, and here to _help_ you), some of the recipes I have seem to be old, and still use vinegar either as part of the brine, or to replace the brine once --MORE--(80%) Adding vinegar to a salt pickle no salt (vinegar based) pickle and Were there, or were there not, salt and/or vinegar cured vegetables in use in the Americas before the Europeans? And as long as we're on the subject, does kim chee _always_ include some kind of seafood, or just usually? Martin Golding | If there were a God, DoD #236 | cocoa butter would be monounsaturated. [motcsd!]mcspdx!adpgate!martin End of article 285 (of 305)--what next? [npq] Article 306 (47 more) in rec.food.historic: From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) Message-ID: <2921@voodoo.UUCP> Date: 14 Aug 92 22:42:37 GMT References: <1992Aug12.170736.16583@hemlock.cray.com> <1490@adpplz.UUCP> Sender: news@voodoo.UUCP Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA Lines: 12 In article <1490@adpplz.UUCP> martin@adpgate.UUCP (Martin Golding) writes: > >And as long as we're on the subject, does kim chee _always_ include some >kind of seafood, or just usually? > > Some do, some don't. There are a bazillion different kinds of kimchee, and I think each family has it's own favorite recipes. I lived in Korea for a year, and do remember small dried shrimp in a lot of the cabbage kimchees. Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.boeing.com // or uunet!bcstec!voodoo!das End of article 306 (of 306)--what next? [npq] 55 Article 55 (34 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug3.165729.24802@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 3 Aug 92 21:57:29 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 149 Sometimes the subject matter in the mailing list wandered off to other culture food making items like yogurt, kefir, brine cured pickles. So we had and FAQ about sauerkraut. ;^) --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. note: In the list, I was the editor. ;^) ________________________________________________________________________________ Subject: Re: borsch is not pickled beets :-) --MORE--(11%) From: Beverly Erlebacher The Editor writes: > Brine pickles are often canned after they are fermented or > partially fermented, since the low-salt brining is not > considered sufficient for long term storage. There is also > a heavy brine where the vegtables do not need to be canned > for long term storage. Here the salt is the preservative, but > the vegtables need to be de-salted before they can be used. If you don't want to screw around with canning, you can freeze your sauerkraut. It will lose crispness, but this doesn't matter if you are planning to cook it. In the old days, people just kept their sauerkraut in a big crock in a cold cellar. If you keep eating the part on top, it will keep until spring. once the weather warms up, you eat fresh veggies and give the remaining kraut to the pigs. You can keep sauerkraut for months in the fridge using the following method. After fermentation is complete, pack it tightly in plastic --MORE--(24%) containers right to the top so that when you put the cover on you can press out all the air bubbles and have the liquid in contact with the entire surface of the cover. Don't bother with heavy brining. Getting the salt out washes out most of the nutrition too. I think heavy brining prevents fermentation of all kinds, but I've never tried it myself, although I have eaten salt-packed vegetables and they are pretty bad. > The process involved here is not a yeast, as I understand it, > but a bacteria. Is it a lactobacilli? Does anybody know? It's a lactobacillus, converting sugar to lactic acid. The scum on top is some other type of microbe, converting the lactic acid to carbon dioxide and water, which is why you have to skim it off. This latter microbe needs plenty of air, so will only grow on an exposed liquid surface, hence my suggestion above to keep air out of the plastic containers. Why don't you go ahead and experiment with a small batch of sauerkraut right now? Buy a head of cabbage and make a few quarts. Some tips: --MORE--(38%) of the pretty colour, but because most people are used to the bright white colour of commercial sauerkraut (which may not even be fermented, as far as I can tell by the taste and texture). Home made sauerkraut tends to be somewhat brownish, the darker the more you let it oxidize. Using red cabbage, the kraut stays red. - Don't use anything but cabbage and salt, never add water. The brine may take a few hours to rise over the cabbage, under the weight. Be patient, and use a heavy enough weight. - An aside to the above: you can throw in some shredded apples to get a bit more sugar and flavour in the kraut. Some people like to add caraway or dill seeds for extra flavour. Just make plain cabbage-and-salt kraut for your first go. - A lot of recipes tell you to use a stone for a weight. Stones of suitable size and shape are scarce in the city. I use a gallon glass jug filled with varying amounts of water depending on how much weight I want. I make kraut and brined pickles in a food- grade plastic bucket. You can get buckets like this from bulk food stores, bakeries, etc., since they are used to ship things like peanut butter and pie filling. The diameters of the jug --MORE--(54%) to the air. I don't use a cloth under the plate, I just wipe the scum from the surface around the jug. If the plate is a good fit for the bucket, you can slowly lift the weight, the plate will rise with all the scum sticking to it, rinse the plate and outside of the jug, and put them back. - Don't use a plate that you care about under the weight. It's amazing the way an acid brine can etch a china surface. Similarly, don't let metal stay in contact with the brine. I've found that even the small amount of brine that overflows the jars during canning will corrode the rings on the canning jars. - During the early stages of fermentation, sauerkraut smells rather unpleasant. There's almost an ozone or chlorine character to the smell. So you might want to isolate your project away from living areas for the first week or so, especially in winter when windows are closed. - You can make small batches of sauerkraut in quart jars. Fill the jars to the brim, cover them and keep them in a plastic dishpan because the brine will overflow. I've never tried this, but have read about it. It might work well using quart plastic containers --MORE--(69%) develops. At some stage you are supposed to pack n containers of kraut into n-1 jars, n is probably 4 or 5. - I've been making kraut and brined pickles for about 20 years now. I learned how from a book I think by Evelyn Loveday, called something like "Home Preservation of Fruits and Vegetables", published by Garden Way Publishing. It's quite a classic, I often see it in libraries. I can get the exact title for you if you like (I'm not at home now). Anyhow, all these fermenting processes have been used for thousands of years by people who knew nothing about the science involved. I think people should try to stay relaxed about all this. Things usually work out, you really don't need to keep a herd of pigs or flock of poultry to eat your mistakes. Experiment and have fun, try to come up with methods that give you the taste and texture you like, but don't sweat it if your bread or whatever doesn't match your ideal at first. You might inadvertently discover something you like better. A lot of the very meticulous methods are necessary for repeatably getting a standardized product, which is important if you are a commercial producer needing to induce brand loyalty in your customers. When you are doing it for yourself and family and friends, you can be more lax or more free. You'll soon --MORE--(87%) an oven full of overflowing jars of gassy non-yogourt to make you reconsider the quality of your sterile technique or your economy in propagating from your last batch instead of springing 59 cents for some fresh commercial yogourt!). A last tip: start small, and do only a small batch when trying something new. It's a lot easier to pitch a couple of quarts of mushy pickles in the compost than to try to dump a 50 gallon barrel. I can tell you lots of funny-only-in-retrospect stories of friends' adventures in zymotechnics, and a few of my own! :-) yrs, b. Btw, I've got a good method for making yogourt from powdered milk. It was particularly attractive for its cheapness when I started doing this as a student in ancient times, now it is even more attractive for its zero-fat property! I can write it up for the list if people are interested. I can also write up my sauerkraut and delicatessen-style brined pickle recipes, but not all at once... :-) End of article 55 (of 72)--what next? [npq] Date: 18 Aug 92 19:38:04 GMT References: <1992Aug18.165326.8648@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 39 mgraham@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Maggie Graham) writes: > > When I lived in Finland, I was able to buy very black bread that > was wonderful. I don't think it was pumpernickel alone, tho that > may have been a constituent. It tasted a little sweet (molasses?) > and I think it may have had some rye in it also. I also remember > being told that the recipe was orignally Russian, tho I can't > be positive that is correct. > Iknow this description is vague but Are there any Scandinavian or > Russian people out there who know what I am talking about and > could post or email a recipe to me? > > Thanks in advance, > maggie. > --MORE--(72%) It looks like what you want, but I have not tried it, maybe David Adams has. They can be had by anonymous FTP from ftp.ils.nwu.edu the files are in the pub/sourdough directory. (user: anonymous pw: your id) the files are: FAQ.basic_bread FAQ.brine.cure FAQ.culture.bank FAQ.recipes FAQ.sauerkraut FAQ.sourdough FAQ.starter.doctor black.bread (and various mail archives). -Rebecca (zola@u.washington.edu) End of article 215 (of 239)--what next? [npq] (4860) Sat 4 Apr 92 19:44 Rcvd: Sun 5 Apr 20:17 By: Sheryl Moore To: Lawrence London Re: Re: Ye Olde Folk Foods St: Rcvd 4746<>4864 ------------------------------------------------------------------ @MSGID: 1:147/24 29de5192 @PID: Telegard 2.7 ** In a message on 03 Apr 92 01:41:02 to Sheryl Moore, ** Lawrence London said: LL> Impressive. I'd like to find out how to make the turnip kraut. LL> Can the sourdough bread be made without wheat, substituting LL> rye/millet/oat/corn. etc.? the turnip kraut is easy...grate coarsely the turnip,and follow a regular kraut recipe.i have only made the sourdough with regg. flour,so i really don't know, but i imagine a substitution could be made,as in other types of breads.gluten content or rising time or kneading might be different,so you would have to experiment.let me know if you need the recipe,and i wwill dig it out. --- * Origin: ModemLink BBS =: Yukon, OK := HST/V32 (1:147/24) @PATH: 147/24 4000 1000 209/209 13/13 151/1003 3641/1 (4847) Fri 3 Apr 92 15:54 By: Joyce Monschein To: Lawrence London Re: turnip kraut St: Rcvd 4852> ------------------------------------------------------------------ LL> Impressive. I'd like to find out how to make the turnip kraut. -Begin Recipe Export- Title: TURNIP KRAUT (Sauerruben) Keywords: preserving, vegetables 10 lb. turnips, shredded 6 oz. pickling salt Mix together shredded turnips and salt and let stand in large bowls until the juices begin to appear. Then, pack it intoo a 2-gallon stoneware crock or jar (you can use glass), pressing down hard to release more juice. To hold the turnip under the brine, cover with a sterilized plate that just fits into the crock, and weigh down with a 5-pound weight. (An easy way is a double plastic bag filled with water and tied off.) The turnip juices will form a brine which should cover the turnip slices completely. If it is necessary to add more liquid, make a brine of 3 Tbls. salt for each quart of water. Loosely cover the crock with cheesecloth to prevent particless from falling into the brine (I put another plate on top and then cover with a plastic bag held on by a rubber band to keep out fruit flies). Store in a room with a temperature between 60 and 70 F. Skim the brine DAILY. Fermentation is over when the brine stops bubbling - approximately 2-3 weeks. At this point, the turnip kraut is ready to eat, and should be stored in a cooler area where the temperature does not exceed 38 F. It will keep for up to 3 months without canning. If you want to keep the turnip kraut indefinately, pack in sterilized jars and process in a water bath for 25 minutes. Makes approximately 3 quarts. Note: Turnip kraut will darken with age. Limited exposure to light will slow darkening. As always check before eating any home pickled product for sliminess, discoloration, or strange odor. If in doubt, don't eat it. Variations: Substitute carrots, cabbage, or bok choy and make your own carrot kraut, sauerkraut, or kim chee (to make real kim chee you need to add hot peppers, garlic, ginger root, and scallions) <> -End Recipe Export- --- Via Silver Xpress V2.28 * Origin: The Homestead, Nashville TN (615)385-9421 HST (1:116/3000) @PATH: 116/3000 2000 151/1000 1003 3641/1 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (4860) Sat 4 Apr 92 19:44 Rcvd: Sun 5 Apr 20:17 By: Sheryl Moore To: Lawrence London Re: Re: Ye Olde Folk Foods St: Rcvd 4746<>4864 ------------------------------------------------------------------ @MSGID: 1:147/24 29de5192 @PID: Telegard 2.7 ** In a message on 03 Apr 92 01:41:02 to Sheryl Moore, ** Lawrence London said: LL> Impressive. I'd like to find out how to make the turnip kraut. LL> Can the sourdough bread be made without wheat, substituting LL> rye/millet/oat/corn. etc.? the turnip kraut is easy...grate coarsely the turnip,and follow a regular kraut recipe.i have only made the sourdough with regg. flour,so i really don't know, but i imagine a substitution could be made,as in other types of breads.gluten content or rising time or kneading might be different,so you would have to experiment.let me know if you need the recipe,and i wwill dig it out. --- * Origin: ModemLink BBS =: Yukon, OK := HST/V32 (1:147/24) @PATH: 147/24 4000 1000 209/209 13/13 151/1003 3641/1 Article 171 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) Date: 14 Aug 92 13:48:19 GMT Subject: recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. Julie #include "std_disclaimer.h" Article 171 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) Message-ID: <1992Aug14.134819.11400@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> Date: 14 Aug 92 13:48:19 GMT Sender: news@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA Lines: 51 hank@westford.ccur.com (Hank Cohen) asks about 100% rye bread. >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use --MORE--(50%) Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) --MORE--(78%) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. Julie #include "std_disclaimer.h" End of article 171 (of 211)--what next? [npq] From: Tara McDermott Date: Thu Aug 13 15:17:55 1992 Organization: University of Maryland University College Lines: 28 From: The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book 1 1/4 cup whole wheat pastry flour 1/2 tsp. salt 2 tsp. baking powder 1/2 tsp. baking soda 1/2 cup chopped dates 1/2 cup chopped nuts 1/2 cup wheat germ, or bran 3 Tbsp. light molasses 2 Tbsp. oil 1 cup apple juice 1 tsp. grated lemon rind 1/2 tsp. allspice --MORE--(55%) Preheat oven to 375 degrees. Grease a 12-tin muffin tin. Sift flour, salt, baking powder, soda. Stir in the nuts, dates, and wheat germ. Beat the remaining ingredients together until smooth, then combine all, stirring just enough to mix. Spoon into muffin cups and bake about 15 - 20 minutes. Tara -- Tara McDermott "We suggest people take their Food Pyramids, cut off the top and make a Healthy Eating tara@socrates.umd.edu Trapezoid." -Neal Barnard, M.D. End of article 14608 (of 14668)--what next? [npq] rec.food.veg #14610 (3 + 15 more) [1] From: Tara McDermott Date: Thu Aug 13 15:18:35 1992 Organization: University of Maryland University College Lines: 27 From: The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book Ingredients: 3/4 cup whole wheat flour 1 tsp. baking powder 1/4 tsp. baking soda 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 cup cornmeal 1/4 cup roasted peanuts, finely chopped 1 Tbsp. oil 1/4 cup unsalted peanut butter (crunchy is best) 2 Tbsp. fruitsource (or any thick liquid sweetener) 1 1/2 cup buttermilk (curdle 1 1/2 cup soymilk with lemon juice) 1 "egg" --MORE--(55%) Preheat oven to 375 degrees. Grease a 12-cup muffin tin. Sift flour, baking powder, soda, and salt, and stir in the cornmeal and peanuts. Beat together oil, PNB, and add sweetener. Add soymilk and "egg". Stir dry ingredients into wet, mixing until barely smooth. Spoon into muffin tins, and if you like, sprinkle more chopped peanuts on top. Bake in hot oven 12 - 15 minutes. -- Tara McDermott "We suggest people take their Food Pyramids, cut off the top and make a Healthy Eating tara@socrates.umd.edu Trapezoid." -Neal Barnard, M.D. End of article 14610 (of 14668)--what next? [npq] From: Tara McDermott Date: Thu Aug 13 15:19:17 1992 Organization: University of Maryland University College Lines: 21 From: The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book Ingredients: I cup whole wheat flour 1 tsp. baking soda 1/2 tsp salt 1 1/2 cups bran (oat or wheat I guess) 3 Tbsp. marg. or oil 2 Tbsp. sucanat (or brown sugar) 2 Tbsp. molasses 1 "egg" 1 1/2 cup buttermilk (take 1 1/2 cup soymilk, and add some lemon juice to curdle it. This SHOULD work, though I've never tried it) Preheat oven to 375 degrees. Grease pan. Mix dry ingredients. Add --MORE--(73%) -- Tara McDermott "We suggest people take their Food Pyramids, cut off the top and make a Healthy Eating tara@socrates.umd.edu Trapezoid." -Neal Barnard, M.D. End of article 14609 (of 14668)--what next? [npq] Article 853 (25 more) in rec.food.historic: From: iqan0@cc.uab.es Date: 1 Dec 92 06:49:35 GMT Organization: Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona Lines: 11 Razatzin, Mexican indians treating corn with lime water to make the dough for tortillas, and for a long list of other "pasties" (sopes, huaraches, totopos, tamales, pambazos, etc) is not a thing of the past. Nixtamal, the maize dough is still prepared in this fashion all over Mexico. Tarra, Francisco Valdes Sensors and Biosensors Group Autonomous University of Barcelona iqan0@cc.uab.es End of article 853 (of 855)--what next? [npq] From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Message-ID: <1992Aug13.153736.23124@acd4.acd.com> Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:37:36 GMT Lines: 58 As requested, here is the information on the egg incubator I bought. It consists of a molded styrofoam container that is approximately 16 inches square by eight inches tall. It is formed from cupped top and bottom halves that fit together using a stepped lip around the top edge of the bottom half. The bottom half has concentric raised ridges on the inside bottom that are meant to hold water to raise the humidity. These ridges are heavy enough and close enough together to support a bowl containing bread dough. The top half contains a viewing window (plastic), the thermostat assembly, and the heater assembly. The thermostat is centrally mounted and hangs down about four or five inches inside the box. The heating element is contained inside a thin metal tube (1/8 inch diameter) that is shaped in a rounded square about 12 inches wide. It is mounted about one inch in from the --MORE--(42%) it seems to be a safe method. Since it is too short, I plan on extending the box by constructing a four sided sleeve of styrofoam sheeting and duct tape. It seems like the simplest way to get exactly what I need for a proofing box. As Mr. Dixon pointed out, you can just mount the thermostat and heating assemblies on a board and use your oven or cooler as well. I understand that they may be purchased separately from the manufacturer. The product name is the "Little Giant" incubator. The manufacturer's name, address, and phone # are: Miller Mfg. Co. 494 Villaume Ave. So. St. Paul, MN 55075 (612)451-1761 Telex 29-7033 If I mangled the description, I'm sorry. You might want to find a retail outlet that carries them and examine it to determine what parts you wish to order. The local stores that carry them are Tractor Supply Co (TSC) --MORE--(73%) I personally found it simpler to just buy the complete unit rather than try to assemble my own. The price difference for the parts I needed, when you include shipping, was less than five dollars. The parts numbers for the thermostat and heating element assemblies are as follows: 5201 - Element Clip 5202 - Element 5204 - Adjustment screw and wing nut 5205 - 5 ft. Power cord 5206 - Indicator light (on when element is heating) 5207 - Thermostat switch assembly (includes thermostat switch, bracket, and insulator shield). 5208 - Thermostat wafer (the gas filled disk that actuates the switch) The whole incubator (including thermostat, etc.) is kit number 5200. -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) End of article 174 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 89 (40 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: blake@milton.u.washington.edu (Blake Hannaford) Summary: Can one get a good starter from grapes? Keywords: Grapes Starter Message-ID: Date: 6 Aug 92 15:27:59 GMT Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington Lines: 12 THe Chez Panisse cookbook suggests that a good starter can be made using crushed grapes. Has anyone tried this method? I would like to make the move to sourdough from yeast bread, and I thought I would try this when our backyard grapes ripen this October. Do you "pro's" out there recommend this or should I start with some of my neighbor's starter inherited from her mother in Vermont? Blake Hannaford blake@ee.washington.edu End of article 89 (of 112)--what next? [npq] 103 Article 103 (39 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: lordj@aix.rpi.edu (Joel Patrick Lord) Message-ID: Date: 7 Aug 92 18:24:55 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY Lines: 47 Nntp-Posting-Host: aix.rpi.edu I'm posting this for my mother, who was reading over my shoulder the other day. The opinions expressed herein are hers and hers alone. -- Joel Lord Regarding proofing temperature and recipe sources. There seems to be a misconception running through this news group regarding proofing temperature. I didn't notice it until someone asked about what kind of thermometer to use, "since so many recipes insist the starter be proofed at 85 degrees." Lighten up, people. Until sometime in this century, nobody checked their starter with a little thermometer -- they followed common sense. For today's baker, common sense is room temperature, assuming --MORE--(36%) degrees, and a standard wall thermometer will tell you that. Eighty-five may be optimal, but the margin for error is much greater than some recipes indicate. At cooler temperatures, it takes more time; at warmer temperatures, it takes less. In colder climates, a proofing box or other special warming set-up is a good idea, however. The rigid view of proofing temperatures seems to me to be the result of too many scientists in the kitchen. They've analyzed the process and "optimized" it, which -- stated as absolutes in a recipe -- is going to scare off people who haven't done much baking. I've been baking bread for twenty-five years, with baker's yeast and with sourdough, and have never taken its temperature. I've never had a failure, either. There are two books I recommend for beginning sourdough bakers. "Baking with Sourdough" by Sara Pitzer (a couple of bucks -- write to Storey/Garden Way Publishing, Dept. 9100, Schoolhouse Road, Pownal, VT 05261 for a list of their Country Wisdom Bulletins, or call 1-800-827-8673) has solid, basic information and several recipes for bread, biscuits, pancakes, muffins, sweet breads, cookies, and cake, all without additional baker's yeast. The classic "Tassajara Bread Book" by Edward Espe Brown (Shambala Pub. -- try your bookstore or --MORE--(85%) the proper approach to breadmaking, which is, after all, not a laboratory experiment, but rather a non-rigid cooperative, creative effort. "It's just you and the dough," Brown writes. It's fascinating to learn from scientists how sourdough works, but when it comes down to baking, learn from bakers like Pitzer and Brown. Kathryn J. Lord End of article 103 (of 112)--what next? [npq] Article 229 (44 more) in rec.food.historic: From: styri@hal.nta.no (YuNoHoo) Message-ID: <1992Aug7.092923.14172@nntp.nta.no> Lines: 17 Sender: styri@hal.nta.no (Haakon Styri) Nntp-Posting-Host: balder.nta.no Reply-To: styri@nta.no Organization: Bohemians and Globetrotters, Unlimited Date: Fri, 7 Aug 92 09:29:23 GMT Hey, I like this group. Guess we should get a FAQ file organized before it's too late. In the meantime, I'd like to point out a book that'll be fun to read for some ouf you guys: Marvin Harris: "The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig: Ridles of Food and Culture" Touchstone, ISBN 0-671-63308-2 The book was first published as "Good to Eat", but the author changed the name bacause libraries and bookstores believed it was a cookbook. The --MORE--(91%) --- YuNoHoo End of article 229 (of 244)--what next? [npq] Article 1321 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!iat.holonet.net!molemac!don Message-ID: <1993Aug25.201637.16956@molemac.org> Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Distribution: world From: don@molemac.org (Don Moses) Return-Receipt-To: don@molemac.org Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 20:16:37 PST Subject: Sourdough Books Lines: 14 If anyone has a copy of either of the following books, in good condition, that they would be willing to part with for the right price, please send email. Give me a price that will make you happy and you think is fair. "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" by Ed Wood; Sinclair Publishing. "Jake O'Shaughnessy's Sourdough Book" by Timothy Firnstahl; San Francisco Book Co. ************************************************** Don Moses Sharing good food with good Internet: don@molemac.org friends is the essence of life. Incline Village, NV ************************************************** Article 1716 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: Bread Machines? Message-ID: <1994Jan4.125029.15489@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 85 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2g4fha$3lo@mailhost.interaccess.com> Date: 4 Jan 94 12:50:29 CST In article 3lo@mailhost.interaccess.com, datamike@home.interaccess.com. (datamike) writes: |Is there a newsgroup or list that deals exclusively with bread |machines? I take it this really isn't the place. |Thanks! We do enjoy some discussion about bread machines, but there is a mailing list which is (or at least was some time in the past) dedicated to a discussion of the use of bread machines. (On the other hand there are several sourdough-types who have the notion that they themselves *are* the bread machine. ;^) Below, I include some information about the mailing list. --- Sourdough and Ham AA0PV --David C. Adams internet: dadams@cray.com Statistician uunet: uunet!cray!dadams Cray Research Inc. packet: kg0io@tcman.#msp.mn.usa.noam Here's the information you are looking for: Host of Breadmakers Mailing List is: -Jeff Beadles To get a file from the netlib archives, send email to "netlib@onion.rain.com" In the body of the message, enter something like; send index from bread send volume02/issue01 from bread send volume01/issue01-25 from bread Questions? Send mail to me at jeff@onion.rain.com They are also available via anonymous ftp on onion.rain.com [147.28.0.161] in /pub/bread -- Patricia Ann Bromberger, System Manager - patt@tram.com Tramway Unix Systems "Every child smiles in the same language." -- Anonymous The correct address for submitting articles is bread@onion.rain.com. To join the breadmaker's mailing list, just send a note to "bread-request@onion.rain.com" You'll get an acknowledgement back, saying that you have been added to the list. The list is primarily for people who use automated breadmakers (Like the DAK R2D2) From obrien@netcom.com (No parking EXCEPT FOR BOB) Subject: Re: Sourdough in the Bread-Machine Organization: Devil's Playground, Campbell, California Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 19:20:08 GMT Since I posted, several readers have emailed for more data about the bread machine list, so here's the contact info: Send digest submissions to. . . . . . . Bread@cykick.infores.com Send add/unsubscribe requests to . . . bread-digest-request@cykick.infores.com (send HELP for more information) Send problems about the list to. . . . .Bread-Mgr@cykick.infores.com Archives for the Bread list are only available by mail-server. Send a message containing HELP in the body of the message to bread-archive@cykick.infores.com Bob O'Bob -- Article 1605 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!hermes.chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: Brick ovens (was Re: New book: "Bread A Message-ID: <1993Dec15.125249.26986@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 110 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2elcoc$s23@hpscit.sc.hp.com> Date: 15 Dec 93 12:52:49 CST In article s23@hpscit.sc.hp.com, chrisb@sc.hp.com (Chris Bostak) writes: | |That's right. Instead of buying a >$20 baking stone, I went down to Home |Depot and bought some fired clay (like brick) tiles for $0.52 each costing a |grand total of $2.08. I was originally a doubter that tiles would make a |difference, but they do. The bottom crust of my bread is thicker and harder |than ever before. Nice and chewy too! You know those gigantic clay pots you see sometimes at the garden store? The kind that look like small garbage cans? They have clay overflow trays that go underneath? Large as a pizza pan some of them are. One bread book I read recomended using these instead of baking stone. Nice Idea I thought. They come in one large piece and just the right shape. Price usually isn't that bad either. snip, snip,... |I still haven't figured out a way to get a top crust hard enough that when |it cools, it cracks. I've seen it happen in professional bakeries and I |won't rest until I can do it. My eternal gratitude to anyone that can tell |me how to do it. | |Chris Well I have never tried a clay stone because I have had such wonderful results with the Dutch ovens. I really love them. The basic Idea is that they recycle steam. The heavy lid keeps steam from the baking bread in the Dutch oven. The crust is the most like fancy store bought French bread I have ever had. In fact I think it is better! Cracks? Yes! Really try it! Borrow beg or steal a Dutch oven from someone today. Make up a nice batch of dough with only sourdough culture, water, flour, and salt. Ok here is more specifically how I do it: Saturday night about 10:00 pm: I remove the culture jar from the fridge. It has about 2 cups of culture in it. I pour it all out into a large tupperware bowl or old ice cream bucket. I scrape the bottle out and let it soak in hot water for easier cleaning later. I add 2 cups tepid water to the culture and 2 cups of high quality bread flour. This I stir for about 30 seconds. I wipe the knife I used to stir the brew on the side of the bowl to scrape any culture off. I rest the lid on the bowl and set it in the back of the oven to brew over night. I turn the oven light on to keep things warm. Then I go to bed. Sometimes I wash the jar out first. ;^) Sunday morning 6:00 am: I remove the bowl from the oven. I stir the contents. I use a small measuring cup and scoop one cup of culture into the culture jar which I have just cleaned. I add 1/2 cup of tepid water to the culture jar and 1/2 cup of flour and stir and set it on the back of the stove until much later. Now turning my attention to the bowl, I add a small palmful (about 1 tsp) of salt, and 3 cups of quality bread flour, and stir it well. I fill up the 1 cup measure to use to keep the kneading surface and my hands floured. I scoup the batter onto a floured surface and begin to knead. I work in a little of the flour at a time to keep my hands and the kneading surface clean and to firm up the dough a bit. I count out at least 600 heavy strokes. Sometimes I let it go to 1000 just for good measure. I get out my 12" Dutch oven and grease it thinly. Thin I form the dough into a ball and drop it into the Dutch oven. I let this sit in a cold spot (Ok room temperature or slightly cooler. At least 60 deg. F.) I go take a shower and help get the family ready for church. Sunday afternoon 1:00 pm. We get home from church. I turn the oven on to 400 deg. F. and warm it up for a couple of minutes. I move the Dutch oven into the oven and set the timer for 40 minutes. I take the culture jar from the back of the stove and put it in the fridge. Sunday afternoon 1:40 pm. The timer rings. I check the bread. If it has a light yellow golden color to the top crust I take it out. If it is still white I let it go another 5 or 10 min. Then using hot pads I tip the Dutch oven on it's side and let the loaf start to fall out. I catch it as it starts to move and with a quick twist help it to land right side up on the bread board. All souls present gather around immediately for slices of hot bread and fresh butter. It has basically become a Sunday tradition. If you really like clay maybe you could try a clay cooker? I have heard someone in the group uses that? I would like to hear a report. --- Sourdough and Ham KG0IO --David C. Adams internet: dadams@cray.com Statistician uunet: uunet!cray!dadams Cray Research Inc. packet: kg0io@tcman.#msp.mn.usa.noam Experience --> Identify --> Analyze --> Generalize Article 1614 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!CC.UMontreal.CA!IRO.UMontreal.CA!clouso.crim.ca!comback!neb!fc!Barry_J._Lazar Message-ID: <1993Dec16.154158.626225@fc.babylon.montreal.qc.ca> Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Distribution: world From: Barry_J._Lazar@fc.babylon.montreal.qc.ca Organization: Babylon Communications, Montreal, Canada Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 15:41:58 EST Subject: Re: Brick ovens (was Re: New book: "Bread A Lines: 12 Just a note regarding your dutch oven technique. I also find that it works very well. Nice snappy crust. I occasionally cook at different temperatures just to see what will happen. My favourite is to fire the oven to about 500 with the oven the Dutch oven in it (I let the bread rise in a flat collander or metal pie pan which is first lightly oiled and then sprinkled with dry oatmeal). Caution, the oven will be really hot.This way, the oven is really hot. When the temperature is reached, I take the dutch oven out, quickly put in the bread, still in its pan). I shoot a few hits of water over it with a psray bottle and put on the cover. Everything goes back in the oven (the entire operation takes less than five seconds). I turn the heat down to 375 for about 45 minutes. Article 1701 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!news.csos.orst.edu!CSOS.ORST.EDU!todda From: todda@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Allen Todd) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Re: FAQ Please Date: 4 Jan 1994 06:23:20 GMT Organization: CS Outreach Services, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR, USA Lines: 11 Message-ID: <2gb20o$ef1@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU> References: <2g4ct1$dnf@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: csos.orst.edu A nice library of FAQ files can be found on: ftp.cc.utexas.edu /pub/sourdough rec.food.sourdough FAQ Library I hope this helps.... -- |----- Allen W. Todd E-Mail: todda@csos.orst.edu -----| |----- A-Tek Data Systems -----| |----- US Mail: 2711 N.W. Gibson Hill Road -----| |----- (503) 926-2986 Albany, Oregon 97321 -----| Article 1706 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!boulder!cnsnews!spot.Colorado.EDU!dixon From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: what is gluten? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@cnsnews.Colorado.EDU (Net News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1994Jan3.184227.13357@msuvx1.memst.edu> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 17:07:18 GMT Lines: 32 In article <1994Jan3.184227.13357@msuvx1.memst.edu>, wrote: >I am new at cooking with sour dough. I stupid question. What >is gluten flour? Is it something to do with the sugar content? White flour is made up of (primarily) starches and proteins, while whole flour is made up of (primarily) fiber, starches, and proteins. Gluten is the type of proten found in grains and flours. If you look very closely at a thin slice of white bread, you'll see the little bubbles in the bread are translucent with specks of white stuff mixed in...like tiny speckly umbrellas. The translucent part is the gluten. The gluten is quite stretchy, similar to rubber. It is the gluten that allows gases to be trapped when bread is allowed to rise, like tiny balloons in the bread. Kneading moist or wet flour causes the gluten to separate out and 'form', i.e. to prepare the bread for raising. The additional fiber in whole flours is why whole grain breads may not rise as high and light as white varieties...the fiber tends to break up the gluten structure a bit, making it less able to carry gas. Same thing goes for oils, sugars or sweeteners, and other non-flour ingredients. Salt tends to help the gluten though. Bread made with salt added tends to have better and stronger gluten structure than bread without. If you're really curious about the stuff, make a plain flour and water dough and then boil it until the starches all come out. What you'll have left will look like a blob of rubber cement...that's the gluten! Does that about cover it? Brian Dixon -- Computer/Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon) 503-750-3143 (wk), briand@cv.hp.com (email). "Opinions & attitudes are mine!" Article 1714 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: Grain mills Question Message-ID: <1994Jan4.115521.12391@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 179 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2g2vga$rpt@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU> Date: 4 Jan 94 11:55:21 CST In article rpt@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU, todda@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Allen Todd) writes: |I am interested in hearing more about the K-TEC mills. Where can you get |them & about how much do they cost? K-TEC has a toll free number 1-800-748-5400. They will deal with mail order. I paid pennies less than $200 for mine a few years ago. That was on sale. Since then design improvements include a deeper bowl which means that you can mill more flour in one run without stoping to empty the bowl. In my bowl I can mill about 8 cups of flour, I think, before I need to stop and empty the bowl and shake the filter and the cup. Then I can keep going. It is not a big deal, but If I were using this mill in a comercial application, which I think it could handle very well BTW, I would cut the bottom out of the lexan bowl and permanetly glue it to the lid of a 5 gallon plastic bucket. Then I could mill nearly 4 or 5 gallons in one shot. | |The low temperature grinding is particularly interesting. How do the |achieve low temperatures & high speed. Those are mutually exclusive |with older milling techniques. I kept some old mail on the subject. I will append it below. I have had mine for two years now. It gets frequent use and holds up to it very solidly. It still seems like new. I love mine. |-- ||----- Allen W. Todd E-Mail: todda@csos.orst.edu -----| ||----- A-Tek Data Systems -----| ||----- US Mail: 2711 N.W. Gibson Hill Road -----| ||----- (503) 926-2986 Albany, Oregon 97321 -----| --- Sourdough and Ham AA0PV --David C. Adams internet: dadams@cray.com Statistician uunet: uunet!cray!dadams Cray Research Inc. packet: kg0io@tcman.#msp.mn.usa.noam "Who hath believed our report?" (Isaiah 53:1.) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 91 11:15:26 CDT From: jbyrd@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu To: dadams (David Adams) Subject: Re: Home Grain Mills In article <1991Sep23.170013.17311@hemlock.cray.com> you write: |> |> |> |> Some months ago I posted a request for information about home |> grain grinders or mills. I finally found one that I like, so |> I thought I would share information about it. |> |> |> I decided to buy the Kitchen Mill from K-TEC (Kitchen Technologies). |> |> I got it for $199.00 They also sell used stone grinders. Aparently |> they take trade-ins. They sold me a used hand grinder for $25. This |> was a discounted price they gave me for buying the other. I wanted the |> hand grinder for the rare ocassion when I might be without power. |> |> K-TEC is the company responsible for the development and patenting |> of a new non stone based small grain mill. The basic idea is |> that they designed a stainless steel milling chamber that works |> like a small jet engine. Interlacing steel teeth revolve at 28,000 |> rpm. Grain is funneled into this *jet engine* and as the grain |> hits the steel blades or teeth the beads of grain shatter. Only |> drawback, it sounds like a small jet engine. |> |> I wanted to quote from their brochure, but first let me emphasize that |> I am not a K-TEC employee, and in no way am I connected with K-TEC, |> other than being an over zealous customer. (I figure that if I |> convince someone else that I found a good deal, then maybe I have |> really found a good deal.) |> |> "It's the first high speed stoneless flour mill small enough to |> easily store, big enough to do the job. |> |> "It's a better way to make flour. Instead of stones, the Kitchen Mill |> uses a computer balanced Micronetic Chamber to Mill grain into flour. |> This type chamber is used in the pharmaceutical industry to create exact |> uniform particles for medicnes.... |> |> "The trouble with stones: |> Stone mills often gum up, crack, chip or glaze. They can leave grit in |> your flour. Stone mills are generally hard to clean, and can harbor |> bacteria which contaminates flour.... |> |> "The milling chamber consists of two stainless steel parts with concentric |> rows of stainless steel teeth. These teeth spin within each other at high |> speed. Grain enters in the center of the chamber and by centrifugal force |> hits the several rows of milling teeth. These teeth burst the grain into |> the best flour you've ever used in baking.... |> |> "None of the moving metal parts actually touch so there is no excessive heat. |> Since the mill has no rubbing surfaces to wear out, cause friction, or get |> hot, the flour stays cooler. This means the valuable nutrients are not |> destroyed... |> |> "The Kitchen Mill comes with a full 5 year limited warranty and Life Time |> warranty on the milling chamber." |> |> |> |> K-TEC has a toll free number 1-800-748-5400. |> |> |> -- |> David C. Adams E-mail: dadams@cray.com |> Statistical Analyst uunet!cray!daadams |> Cray Research, Inc. Phone: (612) 683-5332 |> FAX: (612) 683-5599 David, I didn't see your original post or I probably would have replied at that time. For the last 9 years I've been milling my own wheat in a machine made by "Magic Mill" (out of Salt Lake City). It sounds like about the same technology as you've described for your Kitchen Mill, so mine ALSO sounds like a jet engine. I used it commercially in a baking business I ran from home a few years back, so I'm sure it's well made; I have never had a problem with it. It costs about twice as much, though, as your Kitchen Mill (closer to $400, maybe more now), and I've never liked the ergonomics of mine very much. Besides being noisy, it's messy and hard to clean - lots of little holes that clog up with flour, requiring special brushes (which I kept losing) to clean out. It also, I think, didn't have a large enough capacity. In order to mill the wheat for 6 to 7 loaves of bread (the capacity of my Bosch mixer), I had to mill half the wheat, dump the flour, then mill the other half of the wheat. Anyway, my point is it does sound like you got a good deal on yours, and I hope you enjoy using it. If mine ever poops out on me, I'll probably go check out the Kitchen Mill. Jan Byrd From: hardin@dino.cad.mcc.com (John Hardin) Subject: Re: Wheat grinder info wanted Date: Mon, 9 Dec 91 16:46:01 CST In-reply-to: dadams@cherry10.cray.com's message of 5 Dec 91 19:39:18 GMT David Adams writes: +> +> The other manufacturer is K-TEC. +> +> K-TEC has a toll free number 1-800-748-5400. I would second this recommendation for K-TEC. I just recently bought their grain mill, and am VERY pleased with it. They claim to be the originators of the "micronizers" - also used by Magic Mill. K-TEC also warrants the milling of ALL hard grains (e.g., corn, beans, etc.). Their unit carries a lifetime warranty on the micronizers and the lexan bowl (which I prefer to Magic Mill's stainless steel bowl because you can see the level of milled grain withOUT having to stop the mill and open it up - it's lighter, too). The rest of the mill carries a 5 year warranty. They were just recently selling it for a special price of $199 (normally $249). (Note: I have NO affiliation with K-TEC other than as a satisfied customer.) -jwh -- John W. Hardin phone: (512)338-3535 MCC email: hardin@mcc.com 3500 W. Balcones Center Dr fax: (512)338-3897 Austin, TX 78759-6509 uucp: ...!cs.utexas.edu!milano!cadillac!hardin Article 1610 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!boulder!cnsnews!spot.Colorado.EDU!dixon From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: Barley flour sourdough Message-ID: Sender: usenet@cnsnews.Colorado.EDU (Net News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1993Dec3.213758.19998@bnr.ca> <1993Dec7.153055.27057@hemlock.cray.com> <2e4s7v$j13@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 17:51:41 GMT Lines: 39 In article , Ronald F. Feldstein wrote: >A high percentage of wheat flour is not a necessity. Many of the best >Russian breads, for example, are made with high percentages of rye flour, >up to 100%. According to a Russian bread manual I have, flour can be >categorized on the basis of its "gas-retentive capacity." On this basis, >both wheat and rye can retain gas. And while this is due to gluten in >the case of wheat, rye can retain gas thanks to the viscosity and surface >tension of the dough. > >R. Feldstein > One thing I've notice when making pure or near-pure rye breads is that they require a different technique than wheat flour breads...and that they can work ok. They'll never get as light as wheat breads, but they will still get light enough to be a good bread, i.e. like pumpernickel or a bit lighter. Anyway, it always requires 2 tries for me to make a good 100% rye loaf...I don't make it often enough to be a good judge of the dough. The technique that I've found works well is: don't add more flour than is needed, typically this means the dough will still be pretty sticky when you've added enough flour, and use lots of patience in the kneading. I have found that even though the dough is sticky, if you keep kneading it long enough the stickiness will go away. You shouldn't quit kneading until the stickiness does go away. I find it helps sometimes to allow an 'intermediate rise' part way through the kneading process. For example, if I feel I've added enough flour and have been kneading for awhile and the stickiness doesn't seem to be diminishing very quickly, it usually helps to just lay a bit of wax paper over the dough and let it rest for about 20 to 30 minutes, then come back and resume kneading. Usually after that the stickiness seems to go away more quickly...or if it doesn't I assume it actually does need a bit more flour so I go ahead an add some more. 100% rye bread that I've made this way has turned out pretty good. Brian -- Computer/Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon) 503-750-3143 (wk), briand@cv.hp.com (email). "Opinions & attitudes are mine!" Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough From: nadine@solstice.ucs.ualberta.ca (Nadine Leenders) Subject: Sourdough without gluten/for allergies Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 17:32:37 GMT I'm quite interested in both whole grain baking and in baking for those with allergies (due to the problems of a good friend) and have just got Ralph to raise some brown rice (3/4) and millet flour (1/4). For those who are interested, this is some of the information I've gathered, along with my bit of experience. Flours with gluten: wheat, spelt, barley, kamut, rye Flours without gluten: brown rice, millet, corn, soy Hidden problems with sourdough for those with allergies: - minute quantities of mold growth because of the length of time sourdoughs are proofed for - problems with the culture, (I've been assured that lactobacilli do not produce anything lactose-like, and there is the yeast too, of course and maybe other possibilities?) - we still haven't tested sourdough with the allergetic child in question, still more work to be done Raising non-gluten flours: - cannot make a kneaded bread with a non-gluten flour, there is no gluten to bring out by kneading - you must replace the gluten, which normally holds in the gas, with another binder(correct term?) - Laurel's Kitchen suggests Methylcellulose(sp?) as a binder - rice-millet works with Ralph to make good pancakes, used gelatin as a binder, result reminded me of eating a cracker, and I wasn't tempted to gorge like I usually do with pancakes. - try baking at a high temperature, then lower it to prevent gas from escaping -- Nadine Leenders | nadine@solstice.ucs.ualberta.ca Computing and Network Services | (403) 492-9349 University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta Canada T6G 2H1 Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough From: klingham@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kirsten Klinghammer) Organization: Purdue University Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 06:16:04 GMT I wish I had a good gluten-free sourdough recipe to share, but I'm afraid I'm just starting to experiment. I have had pretty good luck using a gluten-free flour mix that I make at home, however. It consists of 2 parts rice flour (white or brown rice), 2/3 part potato starch flour, and 1/3 part tapioca flour. I got that "recipe" from The Gluten-free Gourmet by Bette Hagman. That's an excellent book, by the way, and apparently she has another one out too, but I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive so I can't tell you much about it. Her first book, at least, does not discuss sourdough at all. I'm just starting to play with recipes, and I've been planning to post any successful combinations when I get them. I thought I'd post a possible flour combination in case some- one else has more time to experiment now than I do - it does give one possible place to start. Good luck! Kirsten Klinghammer klingham@mentor.cc.purdue.edu Article 811 (3 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: mcerreto@bbn.com (Michael Cerreto) Date: 28 Dec 92 14:15:34 GMT Organization: Bolt, Beranek, and Newman, Systems and Technologies Corp. Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com I finally had a little time this weekend to do some sourdough baking, and while I was at it, I tried the waffle recipe on page 76 of Dr. Wood's book. I used the San Francisco culture, and they were just great! I was pleasantly surprised at how good the sour taste was in a waffle. I also baked my favorite dill and caraway rye, used whole rye flour and baked on my pizza stone. Best results yet. Mike End of article 811 (of 814)--what next? [npq] Article 20791 of rec.gardens: Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!niwot.scd.ucar.edu!shan From: shan@niwot.scd.ucar.edu (Val Shanahan) Subject: Re: Sauerkraut, how to make.... Message-ID: <1993Aug5.194706.15330@ncar.ucar.edu> Keywords: how long does it keep ? Sender: news@ncar.ucar.edu (USENET Maintenance) Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO References: Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 19:47:06 GMT Lines: 13 I made sauerkraut once, it was a lot of work, it was also some of the best kraut I've ever had, IMHO. After shredding the cabbage, I wrapped it in a dish towel and used a rolling pin on it to bruise the cabbage. I'm not sure what the reason behind the bruising is, my recipe book said to do it, so I did. I then put the cabbage in a crock, alternating layers with salt. I don't remember the exact recipe now, but I added caraway seeds to some, apples to some and white wine to some. They were all good and it was a lot of fun to serve "my kraut" to company. Personally, I don't think I'd do it again, but I'm glad I did it at least once. Val Article 20794 of rec.gardens: Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utgpu!bae From: bae@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca (Beverly Erlebacher) Subject: Re: Sauerkraut, how to make.... Message-ID: Keywords: how long does it keep ? Organization: UTCC Public Access References: Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 20:02:05 GMT Lines: 91 In article elel@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (eric.edberg) writes: >I have many cabagges ready for processing. I have pickled >red cabbages in the past using a butter pickle formula which >tasted and kept well. > >I would like to make Sauerkraut this year. > >My books describe two methods: > > 1) fermenting in a crock with salt before canning > 2) direct packing/processing in jar (w or w/out salt) > >Which is the best method to use ? I remember the older folks >talking about using the fermenting method. I suspect that this >method will keep as good as any canned product. If you can keep the crock (I use a food-grade plastic pail, you can get these free or cheap from bakeries or donut shops - fillings and icings are shipped in them) cool, i.e. not much above freezing, you can keep finished sauerkraut for a long time (months). Last year I made just a small batch in a gallon jar and packed it in plastic yogourt cartons and stored them in the fridge. I filled them to the brim and tried to squeeze out all the air and the last one left is still in prime condition. This is easier than canning after fermenting if you have room in the fridge. You could also freeze it, this used to happen by default to my 'kraut when I lived out in the bush without central heating, and it didn't break down the structure as much as canning did. It's important that finished kraut be covered in a way that excludes air from the surface of the brine, or that you continue to skim the scum off whenever it forms. The scum consists of microbes that need air contact and break down the lactic acid that preserves the kraut. The (2) method above involves fermenting in the jar. This can be pretty messy, and you need an extra jar per about 5 others to top them up before canning since the level falls after fermentation. It rises during fermentation due to the gas bubbles, and the brine spills over out of the jar. >Has anyone just directly canned cabbage (Sauerkraut) w/out salt ? >Did it work ok ? How long would it keep in jars ? Did it taste >like commerical Sauerkraut ? You cannot just pack fresh cabbage into a jar "w or w/out salt" and process it in a water bath. Well, actually you can, but it is a good recipe for suicide by botulism. :-) The salt is necessary for the fermentation. It prevents the growth of most microbes, but not the bacteria (Lactobacterium plantarum and Leuconostoc spp et al) that produce the lactic acid that makes the cabbage into sauerkraut and preserves it. Be sure to measure both salt and cabbage accurately, since too much or too little salt (or unevenly distributed salt) may result in inedible kraut. Your homemade sauerkraut will not taste like the commercial stuff, which usually has alum and preservatives added which I think gives it an unpleasant harsh chemical taste. Also, it will not be as bright white as commercial kraut, it will be more brown. You may find that after you've tried the real thing, you can't eat commercial kraut any more. All you need to make sauerkraut is cabbage and salt. Don't add any water or brine, the juice will come out of the cabbage over a period of hours. You can add some shredded apple for taste and its extra sugar, which will help produce more lactic acid, if you like. Some people like to add dill or caraway seeds, too. Germans sometimes pack whole cabbages in the barrel with the shredded cabbage. They use the large leaves for making cabbage rolls (stuffed cabbage). >Any other suggestions or possibilities for cabbage ? (dont want to know >about that Korean hot stuff either....) I've seen recipes for pickled red cabbage, basically vinegar, cabbage, pickling spice, maybe sugar, process in a hot water bath. I've seen relishes using cabbage too. I suppose you could blanch and freeze it. It's too early in the season (too warm) to be able to store it in a root cellar - usually cabbage for keeping is planted late enough to mature in cold weather. Check out the cookbook section in your local public library for more ideas. Once you get into this fermentation thing, you may want to try making delicatessen style brined cucumber pickles. These are a big hit at our house. I also make a gallon of brine fermented odds and ends with the immature green tomatoes, peppers, eggplants and other garden bits and pieces around the time of the first big frost. Write to me if you need more help making sauerkraut. Beverly Erlebacher Toronto, Ontario Canada Article 1120 of rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: FAQ.sauerkraut Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Date: 26 May 93 14:23:51 CDT Subject: Re: borsch is not pickled beets :-) From: Beverly Erlebacher The Editor writes: > Brine pickles are often canned after they are fermented or > partially fermented, since the low-salt brining is not > considered sufficient for long term storage. There is also > a heavy brine where the vegtables do not need to be canned > for long term storage. Here the salt is the preservative, but > the vegtables need to be de-salted before they can be used. If you don't want to screw around with canning, you can freeze your sauerkraut. It will lose crispness, but this doesn't matter if you are planning to cook it. In the old days, people just kept their sauerkraut in a big crock in a cold cellar. If you keep eating the part on top, it will keep until spring. once the weather warms up, you eat fresh veggies and give the remaining kraut to the pigs. You can keep sauerkraut for months in the fridge using the following method. After fermentation is complete, pack it tightly in plastic containers (like yogurt or cottage cheese containers). Fill the containers right to the top so that when you put the cover on you can press out all the air bubbles and have the liquid in contact with the entire surface of the cover. Don't bother with heavy brining. Getting the salt out washes out most of the nutrition too. I think heavy brining prevents fermentation of all kinds, but I've never tried it myself, although I have eaten salt-packed vegetables and they are pretty bad. > The process involved here is not a yeast, as I understand it, > but a bacteria. Is it a lactobacilli? Does anybody know? It's a lactobacillus, converting sugar to lactic acid. The scum on top is some other type of microbe, converting the lactic acid to carbon dioxide and water, which is why you have to skim it off. This latter microbe needs plenty of air, so will only grow on an exposed liquid surface, hence my suggestion above to keep air out of the plastic containers. Why don't you go ahead and experiment with a small batch of sauerkraut right now? Buy a head of cabbage and make a few quarts. Some tips: - Red cabbage makes especially nice sauerkraut, not only because of the pretty colour, but because most people are used to the bright white colour of commercial sauerkraut (which may not even be fermented, as far as I can tell by the taste and texture). Home made sauerkraut tends to be somewhat brownish, the darker the more you let it oxidize. Using red cabbage, the kraut stays red. - Don't use anything but cabbage and salt, never add water. The brine may take a few hours to rise over the cabbage, under the weight. Be patient, and use a heavy enough weight. - An aside to the above: you can throw in some shredded apples to get a bit more sugar and flavour in the kraut. Some people like to add caraway or dill seeds for extra flavour. Just make plain cabbage-and-salt kraut for your first go. - A lot of recipes tell you to use a stone for a weight. Stones of suitable size and shape are scarce in the city. I use a gallon glass jug filled with varying amounts of water depending on how much weight I want. I make kraut and brined pickles in a food- grade plastic bucket. You can get buckets like this from bulk food stores, bakeries, etc., since they are used to ship things like peanut butter and pie filling. The diameters of the jug and bucket are such that little surface area of brine is exposed to the air. I don't use a cloth under the plate, I just wipe the scum from the surface around the jug. If the plate is a good fit for the bucket, you can slowly lift the weight, the plate will rise with all the scum sticking to it, rinse the plate and outside of the jug, and put them back. - Don't use a plate that you care about under the weight. It's amazing the way an acid brine can etch a china surface. Similarly, don't let metal stay in contact with the brine. I've found that even the small amount of brine that overflows the jars during canning will corrode the rings on the canning jars. - During the early stages of fermentation, sauerkraut smells rather unpleasant. There's almost an ozone or chlorine character to the smell. So you might want to isolate your project away from living areas for the first week or so, especially in winter when windows are closed. - You can make small batches of sauerkraut in quart jars. Fill the jars to the brim, cover them and keep them in a plastic dishpan because the brine will overflow. I've never tried this, but have read about it. It might work well using quart plastic containers instead of jars with corrodable rings. The kraut shrinks as it develops. At some stage you are supposed to pack n containers of kraut into n-1 jars, n is probably 4 or 5. - I've been making kraut and brined pickles for about 20 years now. I learned how from a book I think by Evelyn Loveday, called something like "Home Preservation of Fruits and Vegetables", published by Garden Way Publishing. It's quite a classic, I often see it in libraries. I can get the exact title for you if you like (I'm not at home now). Anyhow, all these fermenting processes have been used for thousands of years by people who knew nothing about the science involved. I think people should try to stay relaxed about all this. Things usually work out, you really don't need to keep a herd of pigs or flock of poultry to eat your mistakes. Experiment and have fun, try to come up with methods that give you the taste and texture you like, but don't sweat it if your bread or whatever doesn't match your ideal at first. You might inadvertently discover something you like better. A lot of the very meticulous methods are necessary for repeatably getting a standardized product, which is important if you are a commercial producer needing to induce brand loyalty in your customers. When you are doing it for yourself and family and friends, you can be more lax or more free. You'll soon learn when you've gone too far in the laxness direction (nothing like an oven full of overflowing jars of gassy non-yogourt to make you reconsider the quality of your sterile technique or your economy in propagating from your last batch instead of springing 59 cents for some fresh commercial yogourt!). A last tip: start small, and do only a small batch when trying something new. It's a lot easier to pitch a couple of quarts of mushy pickles in the compost than to try to dump a 50 gallon barrel. I can tell you lots of funny-only-in-retrospect stories of friends' adventures in zymotechnics, and a few of my own! :-) yrs, b. Btw, I've got a good method for making yogourt from powdered milk. It was particularly attractive for its cheapness when I started doing this as a student in ancient times, now it is even more attractive for its zero-fat property! I can write it up for the list if people are interested. I can also write up my sauerkraut and delicatessen-style brined pickle recipes, but not all at once... :-) 1219 Article 1219 (41 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: hans@iris.mincom.oz.au (Hans Plambeck) Date: 22 Jun 93 04:22:04 GMT Organization: Mincom, Brisbane, Australia Lines: 40 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Being idle for a while I was reading through this; probably never going to read this newsgroup again. But here is my suggestion to make bread - as I do it for many years. To start: 50g rye flour + 50ml water -> at room temp covered up 36-48 hours (48 hours for 20C) add 50g + 50ml and mix -> wait 24 hrs add 200g + 200ml -> wait 24 hrs There is a high success rate, if it is too hot (>28C) you have to shift it between Fridge and outside. It should smell sour; but it might not be bubbly. Take away around 50g of this mixture and store in fridge (half a cup, --MORE--(45%) take away around 30g and mix with rye till not moist anymore. The next time around: Use the leftover and mix with 375g + 375ml and wait for 24hours. Then again, store about 50g for the next time. The quality of the sourdough is getting better from time to time! After around 4-6 times it is real good stuff and all bubbly. In a hot climate it might then only need 6 day-hours to mature. Well now you have around 750g of sourdough. add 300g of white flour, 300ml of warm water 30g of salt and some yeast (half a block, 3 spoons,..) mix and wait for half an hour. You might want to add peppercorns, onions,... go for it. knead into your favourite form. wait for an hour. Bake for 50 minutes or for 30 if you just do bread-rolls. Its an old receipe collected about 12 years back in Germany; its been published in a book by Jean Pfuetz(?) together with other things you can do yourself eg make wine from honey... good stuff...-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --MORE--(93%) Mincom Pty Ltd. | Juliette St. || P.O.Box 72 | Stones Corner 4120 Qld (Mail) End of article 1219 (of 1221)--what next? [npq] 147 Article 147 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: kenr@cruise.cc.rochester.edu (Kenneth C. Rich) Summary: yes Message-ID: <1992Aug12.184057.22697@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Date: 12 Aug 92 18:40:57 GMT References: Sender: kenr@cc.rochester.edu Distribution: na Organization: Me of (Rochester, NY) Lines: 34 Nntp-Posting-Host: cruise.cc.rochester.edu In article swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes: >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >shannon tmprb CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and --MORE--(43%) white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: And a note to (wasn't it) Julie out there, I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, but since my trip i have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe from people who might get even if i don't follow thru. So RSN... --MORE--(96%) -ken rich hmmmmm... kenr@cc.rochester.edu End of article 147 (of 211)--what next? [npq] 193 Article 193 (61 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Karl Leikam) Message-ID: Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven References: Distribution: na Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:23:31 GMT Lines: 37 In article swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes: >maybe this is a stupid question, but i *did* read all the FAQ files >first, so shoot me. :-P > (Bang!) >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. > (jealous sigh) --MORE--(42%) >the air is clean, and the altitude is 7500 feet, and it gets >fairly warm during the daytime. > >soo...any ideas, advice, experienced people who think i should >forget it, encouragement? i expect it's worth a try, anyway. > Well....what were you gonna do with it, exactly? I mean, sourdough cornbread? Heck, try it, why not? For tortillas you don't use any kind of leaven, of course. What's left? Well, and anent a previous thread, what's left is pizza -- southwestern style. For this, I use about 1/3rd cornmeal in place of flour, and mix normally. It takes a bit longer to rise (this is with baker's yeast) but otherwise acts normally. (Toppings have to include green chilies, ideally Numex or Sandia, more normally Anaheims (sigh), and NO jalapenos. I may have to live in Texas, but I don't have to eat like it.)) This works well enough that it's definitely worth trying with sourdough. It is virtually certain to work SOMEWHAT, and will give you a good idea as to whether the cornmeal/sourdough mix is a flavor worth pursuing further. BTW, you might keep notes of your personal experiences and think about --MORE--(96%) End of article 193 (of 211)--what next? [npq] Article 147 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: kenr@cruise.cc.rochester.edu (Kenneth C. Rich) Date: 12 Aug 92 18:40:57 GMT >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: And a note to (wasn't it) Julie out there, I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, but since my trip i have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe from people who might get even if i don't follow thru. So RSN... -ken rich hmmmmm... kenr@cc.rochester.edu Article 193 (61 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Karl Leikam) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:23:31 GMT >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >the air is clean, and the altitude is 7500 feet, and it gets >fairly warm during the daytime. Well....what were you gonna do with it, exactly? I mean, sourdough cornbread? Heck, try it, why not? For tortillas you don't use any kind of leaven, of course. What's left? Well, and anent a previous thread, what's left is pizza -- southwestern style. For this, I use about 1/3rd cornmeal in place of flour, and mix normally. It takes a bit longer to rise (this is with baker's yeast) but otherwise acts normally. (Toppings have to include green chilies, ideally Numex or Sandia, more normally Anaheims (sigh), and NO jalapenos. I may have to live in Texas, but I don't have to eat like it.)) This works well enough that it's definitely worth trying with sourdough. It is virtually certain to work SOMEWHAT, and will give you a good idea as to whether the cornmeal/sourdough mix is a flavor worth pursuing further. BTW, you might keep notes of your personal experiences and think about Article 912 of rec.food.sourdough: From: HF.MMX@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marilee Marshall) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Sourdough Corn Bread Recipe Date: 18 Feb 1993 09:13:41 -0800 Thought some of you 'ol Sourdough's would like my cornbread recipe. It's a super one. Doesn't keep well, but is reminescent of campfires and hearty soup suppers. SOURDOUGH CORN BREAD 1 cup starter 1 1/2 cup corn meal 1 1/2 cup evaporated milk 2 eggs, beaten Mix together and add: 1/4 cup melted butter 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 tsp. soda Pour batter into 10" greased frying pan (iron skillet is best). Bake for 25-30 minutes at 450*. (Does not require proofing). Serve hot with lots of butter and honey. Yum. Article 171 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) Date: 14 Aug 92 13:48:19 GMT >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. Julie Article 1275 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!hawk!shea Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: who ate the gluten? Message-ID: From: shea@hawk.cs.ukans.edu (Gary Shea) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 21:10:53 GMT Organization: University of Kansas Computer Science Dept Lines: 29 Gary's Microbiological Lab, Experiment 47b: A month or two ago I mentioned that as far as I know, the gluten-eating part of a healthy sourdough culture is the lactobacilli. Someone else said "the yeast eat it too" and I said I'd do an experiment to find out. I took a couple tablespoons of regular bought-in-bulk bread yeast, a cup of water, and the necessary organically grown whole wheat flour to make an extremely yeasty dough, and let it grow on my counter for 24 hours. The ambient temp varied from about 85 to 70, the majority of the time in the high 70's I'd guess. Under these circumstances my sourdough culture (home started, ambient flora, used commercially for a year) will eat all the gluten and leave nothing but a paste which will dissolve completely in water. The yeast-eaten dough still contained significant amounts of gluten, but not as much as at the outset, so it appears that yeast eat gluten. However, they don't eat it anywhere near as efficiently as lactobacilli. By the way, since all I really know about is making bread with sourdough, I call everything in a culture that's not yeast "lactobacilli". I have gotten the impression that this is generally right, but I don't want to give the impression that I am a microbiological expert or anything like that :) Gary -- Gary Shea (shea@cs.ukans.edu) Department of Computer Science University of Kansas, Lawrence >aquarium thermometer be accurate enough? > Yes. You can also estimate by using your candy thermometer...that's what I do. Figure on adding 85 degree +- 5 degrees to your starter. It's not a big deal because your refrigerated starter is going to cool it off anyway. It'll warm back up to the temperature of your proofing area in an hour or two anyway. >2. How do you maintain a jar at 85 degrees for several days? I notice that I bought a thermometer from Ace Hardware that has blue and red 'hand's that you can adjust to be very close to the temperature indicating 'hand'... it's a round thermometer with numbers on the face...not one of those mercury or alcohol ones. Anyway, this thermometer allows me to see not only the temperature of an area, but also the colded and hottest temperatures over a period of time. Most people use some type of thermometer to check areas that could be possible proofing areas. For example, when I want a 75 degree proof, I put my bowl of starter on the kitchen table and set the air conditioning to 72 degrees for a day. When I want an 81 degree proof, I place my bowl of starter on the top shelf of my coat closet...which happens to be right next to the furnace/water heater closet. The temperature is very stable there. When I want an 85 degree proof, I place the bowl of --MORE--(68%) open...closing the door gives me a 98 degree proof (for pancake batter). The best thing to do is to invest in a good thermometer and experimentally find locations in your place of living that seem to stay at stable temperatures for long periods of time. >3. What is hooch? I was picturing a jar of starter with a tiny Vietnamese >village on top (cluster of hooches), but I don't suppose that's it. Having >not seen hooch, I don't find the term self-explanatory. > "Hooch" is a commonly used term for the water and alcohol mixture that forms on top of the starter if it's proofed or aged long enough. Alcohol is a byproduct of yeast as it digests starches. Rumor has it that old sourdoughs (people) would collect the hooch and drink it for something to do during those long cold winters in the great white north...yummy! BTW, hooch is a yellowy or clear liquid, and it quite often doesn't appear until the starter has been refrigerated for awhile. Brian D. dixon@spot.colorado.edu End of article 109 (of 113)--what next? [npq] From: grady@fraser.sfu.ca (A. Brian Grady) Message-ID: Keywords: clay, baking Sender: news@sfu.ca Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 20:11:51 GMT Lines: 14 Thought I'd pass on this discovery. I recently went down to a store that sells floor tiles and picked up 9 unglazed clay quarry tiles (5 1/2" square). (At 50 cents each, this compares favourably with a $30 clay pizza stone). I lined the oven rack with these and baked freeform loaves on them after having put a pan of boiling water on a rack directly underneath. I don't know why, but my freeform loaves love this: I get lots of oven spring and a nice crust. On a metal tray, they would tend to spread rather than rising high. Does anyone else find this too? -- Brian Grady --MORE--(93%) End of article 125 (of 133)--what next? [npq] From: grady@fraser.sfu.ca (A. Brian Grady) Message-ID: Keywords: clay, baking Sender: news@sfu.ca Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada References: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 01:38:24 GMT Lines: 34 More on baking on clay tiles: Details were requested. I've only done it a few times, but the results have been consistent. The quarry tiles were from a large tile store that sells tiles for flooring. They knew immediately what quarry tiles were, which was good, since I had only read about them. They are 5 1/2" square and about 3/8" thick (14 cm square by 7mm thick). 9 of them line my oven rack completely; this prevents air from circulating, so I use 6. In a slightly larger oven, 9 would be ok. The tiles have little nubs on the bottom so that they don't slide around on the rack and are very smooth on top. --MORE--(49%) boiling water on the rack directly under the tiles. Meanwhile, the freeform loaf is rising. I've tried greasing a cookie sheet, the flouring it and covering it with corn meal to make sure that the dough does not stick, and then sliding the loaf onto the hot tiles. I've also let the dough rise in a floured basket (the french call this a banneton) and turned it upside down onto the tiles. Either way works. I wish I had one of those wooden pizza peels. Then just bake the bread as usual. I havn't had it stick to the tiles at all. Apparently one benefit of using tiles in a conventional electric oven is that they store the heat and make for a much more even baking temperature. That is, when the oven door is opened, little heat is lost, and so the elements do not have to blast the oven and create large occilations of heat. This apparently is good for bread. Another benefit is that the tiles are quite porous, and they draw moisture out of the bottom crust, making it crisper than it gets on a metal sheet. -- Brian Grady grady@sfu.ca -- Psychology Dept, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC. End of article 133 (of 133)--what next? [npq] From: kenr@cruise.cc.rochester.edu (Kenneth C. Rich) Summary: yes Message-ID: <1992Aug12.184057.22697@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Date: 12 Aug 92 18:40:57 GMT References: Sender: kenr@cc.rochester.edu Distribution: na Organization: Me of (Rochester, NY) Lines: 34 Nntp-Posting-Host: cruise.cc.rochester.edu In article swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes: >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >shannon tmprb CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and --MORE--(43%) white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: And a note to (wasn't it) Julie out there, I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, but since my trip i have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe from people who might get even if i don't follow thru. So RSN... --MORE--(96%) -ken rich hmmmmm... kenr@cc.rochester.edu End of article 147 (of 211)--what next? [npq] Type h for help. End of article 147 (of 211)--what next? [npq] Article 175 (72 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Message-ID: <1992Aug13.154123.23215@acd4.acd.com> Summary: how do starter ingredients affect culture Keywords: starter,culture Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN References: <1992Aug13.153736.23124@acd4.acd.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:41:23 GMT Lines: 26 I recently purchased a book by Ada Lou Roberts titled "Sourdough Breads and Coffee Cakes" (Dover, $4.95 ISBN 0-486-24529-2) that seems pretty good. She gives recipes for several starters that don't even use commercial yeast! What seems especially interesting to me is that the recipes have some initial ingredients that are not used when doing subsequent proofs. Some examples are peach tree leaves and hops. The ingredients are steeped in water at the boiling point. I assume that this will kill anything that might be on them that could contaminate a starter. --MORE--(55%) certain strains of yeast and lactobacilli over others? I am also curious about the effect of the salt in the starter recipes. I thought that it tended to inhibit culture growth. If anyone has experimented with these starter recipes, I would appreciate hearing about the results. Do the cultures appear different? If so, how do they differ? The author indicates that they do but gives no details. -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) P.S. I have gotten an active culture going based on just all-purpose flour and water from whatever critters are floating around my home. I will post the results when I find time to cook up something. For those of you wondering, I am smack dab in the middle of the midwest. It IS possible to start your own cultures there! End of article 175 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 174 (72 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Message-ID: <1992Aug13.153736.23124@acd4.acd.com> Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:37:36 GMT Lines: 58 As requested, here is the information on the egg incubator I bought. It consists of a molded styrofoam container that is approximately 16 inches square by eight inches tall. It is formed from cupped top and bottom halves that fit together using a stepped lip around the top edge of the bottom half. The bottom half has concentric raised ridges on the inside bottom that are meant to hold water to raise the humidity. These ridges are heavy enough and close enough together to support a bowl containing bread dough. The top half contains a viewing window (plastic), the thermostat assembly, and the heater assembly. The thermostat is centrally mounted and hangs down about four or five inches inside the box. The heating element is contained inside a thin metal tube (1/8 inch diameter) that is shaped in a rounded square about 12 inches wide. It is mounted about one inch in from the --MORE--(42%) it seems to be a safe method. Since it is too short, I plan on extending the box by constructing a four sided sleeve of styrofoam sheeting and duct tape. It seems like the simplest way to get exactly what I need for a proofing box. As Mr. Dixon pointed out, you can just mount the thermostat and heating assemblies on a board and use your oven or cooler as well. I understand that they may be purchased separately from the manufacturer. The product name is the "Little Giant" incubator. The manufacturer's name, address, and phone # are: Miller Mfg. Co. 494 Villaume Ave. So. St. Paul, MN 55075 (612)451-1761 Telex 29-7033 If I mangled the description, I'm sorry. You might want to find a retail outlet that carries them and examine it to determine what parts you wish to order. The local stores that carry them are Tractor Supply Co (TSC) --MORE--(73%) I personally found it simpler to just buy the complete unit rather than try to assemble my own. The price difference for the parts I needed, when you include shipping, was less than five dollars. The parts numbers for the thermostat and heating element assemblies are as follows: 5201 - Element Clip 5202 - Element 5204 - Adjustment screw and wing nut 5205 - 5 ft. Power cord 5206 - Indicator light (on when element is heating) 5207 - Thermostat switch assembly (includes thermostat switch, bracket, and insulator shield). 5208 - Thermostat wafer (the gas filled disk that actuates the switch) The whole incubator (including thermostat, etc.) is kit number 5200. -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) End of article 174 (of 239)--what next? [npq] From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug14.125655.14041@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 14 Aug 92 17:56:55 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 54 Here is a discovery I made this very morning before comming in to work: In "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" a test is given to determine whether or not you are done kneading dough. That is you stretch the dough and if it will stretch paper thin you are done. This worked fine for me when I was following her instructions for a whole wheat bread, but when I tried it with my white bread I had problems. I usually make the white dough not nearly as wet as she recomended for the whole wheat. After all it usually rises ok, and I am trying to avoid the difficult sticky knead. --MORE--(37%) rubbry in this not so wet state, and when I try to stretch it thin it just won't take it. I can get it to the thickness of cardboard and then it rips, no matter how long I knead it. Then this morning I discovered the secret. I just need to handle the stretch test a little differently. Instead of grabbing a corner and trying to pull I need to take it very slowly. Grab the whole dough wad, and grabbing it in two hands slowly and gently squese a flat spot in the center like I am beginning to stretch the dough out to make a pizza crust. After the first squeze-tug let the dough relax a bit. It will recoil and try to assume its original shape. Then give another gentle tug-squeze just like when you are shaping the pizza dough, and let it relax. Repeat this, carefully and slowly just like for stretching the pizza dough, only you don't stop when you get to the thickness of the pizza dough and you don't stretch the whole wad out flat, just an area. It will keep going until it is indeed paper thin. I discovered that I could quit kneading after about 1/3 of the --MORE--(80%) instead of the 30-45 min I was doing and never meeting the test before.) Needless to say this makes it much easier to make a loaf. The effort to knead a loaf is much less than I had suppossed. It sure took alot of words to say something so simple. :-( --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 176 (of 239)--what next? [npq] --MORE--(96%) Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking,rec.food.sourdough Message-ID: <1992Aug18.193804.10429@u.washington.edu> Date: 18 Aug 92 19:38:04 GMT References: <1992Aug18.165326.8648@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 39 mgraham@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Maggie Graham) writes: > > When I lived in Finland, I was able to buy very black bread that > was wonderful. I don't think it was pumpernickel alone, tho that > may have been a constituent. It tasted a little sweet (molasses?) > and I think it may have had some rye in it also. I also remember > being told that the recipe was orignally Russian, tho I can't > be positive that is correct. > Iknow this description is vague but Are there any Scandinavian or > Russian people out there who know what I am talking about and > could post or email a recipe to me? > --MORE--(70%) > maggie. > Maggie - there is a black bread recipe in the FAQ files. It looks like what you want, but I have not tried it, maybe David Adams has. They can be had by anonymous FTP from ftp.ils.nwu.edu the files are in the pub/sourdough directory. (user: anonymous pw: your id) the files are: FAQ.basic_bread FAQ.brine.cure FAQ.culture.bank FAQ.recipes FAQ.sauerkraut FAQ.sourdough FAQ.starter.doctor black.bread (and various mail archives). --MORE--(97%) -Rebecca (zola@u.washington.edu) End of article 215 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 216 (65 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands) Message-ID: <1992Aug18.195955.11823@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: zola@u.washington.edu Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:59:55 GMT More on quarry tiles for baking: I set my tiles directly on the oven rack, and have been making mostly pizza since I purchased them. It works FINE to do it this way. If you use cornmeal under bread or pizza you can dust it out when the oven is cool, or you can just put a cookie sheet on the next rack down to catch any cornmeal or excess bits and pieces. I have had no problem doing this at all, and I like the results. If a bread can stand alone on a cook ie sheet I would think that there is no reason that it would not bake as well directly on the bricks. The trick with pizza is getting it onto the bricks. (tiles) I use an upside-down cookie sheet (or round baking sheet) with cornmeal or flour to get from point a to b. The dough slides right off the cookie sheet and onto the tiles. Once it has cooked, the pizza is easily removed from the oven with a large spatula (or really just anything that will allow you to --MORE--(59%) crisp enough to just push. I have found it easiest to get the dough onto the tiles first, then add toppings after about 3-5 minutes in the oven. I save the cheese for the last thing, about 3 minutes before it is done. I priced round pizza bricks at $29 this weekend. And the Williams-Sonoma catalogue says about the same for thinner tiles that fit into a cookie sheet. I bought enough tile for $5.46. These are unglazed, and as has been said before, it is the glaze that is the problem with leads, not the clay. Clay that is used now is lead-free. If anyone wants any more gory detail on this mail me. I got my starter in the mail yesterday! Yipee! I am so excited, my other starter got tossed, so I am ready for more. If it is complete failure or raging success I will post some note about it. -Rebecca zola@u.washington.edu End of article 216 (of 239)--what next? [npq] From: dvw@trumpet.att.com Message-ID: <1992Aug19.141759.13903@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 19 Aug 92 19:17:59 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 23 Hello After lurking for awhile I now need help with a bit of a dilemna. After getting a couple of starters going slooowly from whole wheat, and finding "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" looking lonesome in Waldenbooks, I now have been taken off of wheat (not just gluten, wheat) due to suspected allergies. Most (if not all) of the recipies in LKBB have some kind of wheat in them. Does anyone have recipies or knowledge of a good book for making bread WITHOUT wheat? Alternately, has anyone substituted another grain (spelt, amaranth, buckwheat, etc.) for wheat in any of the "Laurel's" recipies? (Something besides rye, I like rye, but can't fathom eating it forever and ever.) What was the --MORE--(90%) Thanks. --- Diane Wilkerson | AT&T Bell Labs | Me for President. dvw@violin.att.com | (908) 615-2704 | End of article 232 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 233 (63 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dvw@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (diane.v.wilkerson) Message-ID: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Date: 19 Aug 92 21:06:42 GMT Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Lines: 24 (I posted this to the mailing list also...) Hello After lurking for awhile I now need help with a bit of a dilemna. After getting a couple of starters going slooowly from whole wheat, and finding "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" looking lonesome in Waldenbooks, I now have been taken off of wheat (not just gluten, wheat) due to suspected allergies. Most (if not all) of the recipies in LKBB have some kind of wheat in them. Does anyone have recipies or knowledge of a good book for making bread WITHOUT wheat? Preferably sourdough, but at this point any bread will do. Alternately, has anyone substituted another grain (spelt, amaranth, buckwheat, etc.) for wheat in any of the "Laurel's" recipies? (Something besides --MORE--(82%) result? Thanks. -- Diane Wilkerson | AT&T Bell Labs | Honk if you hate all of the presidential candidates... ..!att!cbnewsh!dvw | (908) 615-2704 | End of article 233 (of 239)--what next? [npq] From: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Stan England) Message-ID: <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> Date: 20 Aug 92 18:30:20 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Sender: news@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM Reply-To: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com Distribution: na Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 18 Diane asked if anyone knew of recipes for bread made from something other than wheat. I recall seeing an article in The Oregonian, (Portland paper) about a woman who has written a book about cooking without wheat. Seems she also has an allergy to wheat and that it is quite common. She became so frustrated at the difficulty in finding recipes, that she compiled her own cookbook of various wheat-free recipes she had found. I don't recall the authors name, but the title was something like "Wheat Free" Perhaps another newsreader might recall who this was and post a --MORE--(76%) a fairly recent publication. -- Stan England | Tektronix Customer Support Center thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com | BBS (503) 627-5658 Voice (503) 627-2400 Searching: England,Doss,Lang,Moody,Davies,Butler in AL,TN & GA End of article 237 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 238 (58 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: pamhall@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Pamela Hall) Message-ID: <1992Aug20.211958.28484@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 92 21:19:58 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM > Distribution: na Organization: Western Washington University Lines: 6 There's a book entitled "Wheat-free, milk-free, egg-free cooking" by Rita Greer. However, I certainly don't think all the recipes are geared to bread-making! Anyway, it's in paperback for $3.95 with an ISBN of: 0-7225-0832-8 and the publisher is Thorsons Publisher Pamela End of article 238 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 248 (54 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug21.150803.22903@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 21 Aug 92 20:08:02 GMT References: <16849B599.M23231@mwvm.mitre.org> Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 73 In article M23231@mwvm.mitre.org, M23231@mwvm.mitre.org () writes: |In article <1992Aug17.175357.13756@acd4.acd.com> |cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) writes: | |> |>Well, I got my copy of "Sourdoughs from Antiquity" by Dr. Wood on Friday. |>As I said in an earlier post, his company was selling "seconds" for $15. |>They were supposed to have minor defects that made them unsuitable for |>regular sale. |> |************** |Would someone please e-mail me the address for ordering this book? | --MORE--(25%) In FAQ.sourdough we have the following: >From: wilkins@scubed.SCUBED.COM (Darin Wilkins) Recently a local newspaper's food section had an article about sourdough bread starters that might be of general interest. My summary follows: In the mid 80's a pathologist, Dr. Ed Wood, held a position in Saudi Arabia. Wood is an avid bread maker and, realizing he was in the birthplace of bread, explored local bakeries in his spare time. In particular, he searched for sourdough cultures that had been passed down from the beginning of civilization. He persuaded local bakers to part with some of their historical starters and took them home to Cascade, Idaho. There he dried the starters to a form that allows them to be reconstituted with the addition of warm water and flour. He also subjected sourdough starters from other parts of the world to the same treatment. His collection now includes bread starters from 8 regions: --MORE--(52%) Arabia, and Russia. Each starter imparts a unique flavor or texture to bread. French sourdough is mild, but rises well. Bahrain sourdough is one of the most sour, while Yukon sourdough is moderately sour. He says the Saudi sourdough has the most distinctive flavor and the most overrated is from San Francisco (!). He calls the Russian starter his most aggressive starter, able to handle heavy doughs. He has started a business selling the starters, which may be ordered by credit card at 208-382-4828. They cost US $10.50 each. Also, they can be ordered by sending check or money order to: Sourdoughs International PO Box 1440 Cascade, ID 83611. In addition Wood wrote a cookbook, _World Sourdoughs From Antiquity_ (Sinclair Publishing, $23.50), which includes 137 recipes for sourdough baked goods. The book, which comes with a free starter of your choice, may be ordered with a credit card at 800-888-9567. (or at the previous number. This is the number for Sinclair Publishing. The previous number --MORE--(84%) Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle References: <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:19:25 GMT In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) w rites: >Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all. >I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles >started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite >vigerous. > >In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the >new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature >enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?), > >I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ? > >RYE --MORE--(34%) >r.senjen@trl.oz.au Bread takes practice, but you should be able to start making sourdough pancakes now. Here's a simple recipe I use -- The night before, mix one cup starter, one cup flour, a bit less than one cup warm water in a medium to large bowl. Cover loosely (I just place a plate on top of the bowl), and let sit in a warm place overnight. (Don't forget to replenish your starter by adding flour & water to it too.) In the morning, about 1 & 1/2 hours before breakfast, mix in one egg, 1/4 cup milk, roughly 2 tablespoons cooking oil (to keep the pancakes from sticking to the griddle), 2 tablespoons sugar or oil, and one teaspoon salt. Now let this sit for an hour to an hour and a half. It will become foamy. Heat up the griddle until it's hot. To test for proper temperature of the griddle, throw a few drops of water on it. The drops should dance frantically before evaporating. --MORE--(66%) Now spoon out the batter onto the grill. I make my pancakes roughly sand-dollar sized (maybe 4 inches diameter). If you can't afford the extra hour & a half rise-time in the morning, add a teaspoon of baking powder with the other ingredients, and cook right away. Now eat up. Try a few without syrup, butter, or anything, just to see how your starter is doing. I don't think you need to wait 6 weeks to make bread. After years of using my commercial-yeast-based sourdough starter, I just began a starter using flour, potatoe water, and honey (2 cups, 2 cups, 2 tablespoons). Now on the third day, it's settling down to a good sourdough aroma. I plan to use it for bread-making within the week. The only reason I can think of waiting 6 weeks (or 6 months, or a year) is that the flavor develops over a long period of time. That gives you something to look forward to. Ken Pollard, Seattle pollard@u.washington.edu --MORE--(99%) End of article 249 (of 250)--what next? [npq] 249 Article 249 (53 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: pollard@milton.u.washington.edu (Ken Pollard) Message-ID: <1992Aug21.211925.24830@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle References: <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:19:25 GMT In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) w rites: >Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all. >I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles >started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite >vigerous. > >In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the >new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature >enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?), > >I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ? > >RYE --MORE--(34%) >r.senjen@trl.oz.au Bread takes practice, but you should be able to start making sourdough pancakes now. Here's a simple recipe I use -- The night before, mix one cup starter, one cup flour, a bit less than one cup warm water in a medium to large bowl. Cover loosely (I just place a plate on top of the bowl), and let sit in a warm place overnight. (Don't forget to replenish your starter by adding flour & water to it too.) In the morning, about 1 & 1/2 hours before breakfast, mix in one egg, 1/4 cup milk, roughly 2 tablespoons cooking oil (to keep the pancakes from sticking to the griddle), 2 tablespoons sugar or oil, and one teaspoon salt. Now let this sit for an hour to an hour and a half. It will become foamy. Heat up the griddle until it's hot. To test for proper temperature of the griddle, throw a few drops of water on it. The drops should dance frantically before evaporating. --MORE--(66%) Now spoon out the batter onto the grill. I make my pancakes roughly sand-dollar sized (maybe 4 inches diameter). If you can't afford the extra hour & a half rise-time in the morning, add a teaspoon of baking powder with the other ingredients, and cook right away. Now eat up. Try a few without syrup, butter, or anything, just to see how your starter is doing. I don't think you need to wait 6 weeks to make bread. After years of using my commercial-yeast-based sourdough starter, I just began a starter using flour, potatoe water, and honey (2 cups, 2 cups, 2 tablespoons). Now on the third day, it's settling down to a good sourdough aroma. I plan to use it for bread-making within the week. The only reason I can think of waiting 6 weeks (or 6 months, or a year) is that the flavor develops over a long period of time. That gives you something to look forward to. Ken Pollard, Seattle pollard@u.washington.edu --MORE--(99%) End of article 249 (of 250)--what next? [npq] Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough,rec.food.cooking From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands) Message-ID: <1992Aug22.003359.774@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: zola@u.washington.edu Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:33:59 GMT Well, since David said that the ftp file did not have coffee in it ( and I didn't look at it before I posted that note about the archives) here is another recipe from _Bon Appetit_ October 1978. Have fun baking- Rebecca cut here :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- **Russian Black Bread** Try this bread warm from the oven, thickly buttered and --MORE--(33%) Makes 2 1-pound loaves -- 4 cups rye flour 2 cups whole bran cereal 2 envelopes dry yeast 2 tablespoons caraway seeds, crushed 2 teaspoons instant coffee 2 teaspoons salt 1 teaspoon sugar 1/2 teaspoon fennel seeds, crushed 2 1/2 cups water 1/4 cup (1/2 stick) butter 1/4 cup white vinegar 1/4 cup dark molasses 1 ounce (1 square) unsweetened chocolate 2 1/2 to 3 cups unbleached all purpose flour 1/2 cup water 1 teaspoon cornstarch -- --MORE--(50%) Lightly grease large bowl and 2 8-inch layer cake pans. Set aside. Combine first 8 ingredients in mixing bowl. Combine 2 1/2 cups water, butter, vinegar, molasses, and chocolate in 2-quart saucepan. Place over medium heat and cook, stirring frequently, until chocolate is almost melted but mixture is still lukewarm. Turn into mixing bowl and begin beating. Gradually add flour, 1/2 cup at a time, to make a soft dough, and beat about 3 minutes. Turn dough onto lightly floured board. Cover with bowl and allow dough to rest 10 to 15 minutes. Knead dough until smooth and elastic, about 10 to 15 minutes, adding additional flour as needed. Place in greased bowl, turning to coat entire surface. Cover with plastic wrap and hot, damp towel and leave in warm place until doubled in volume. Punch dough down and turn onto lightly floured board. Shape into two balls and place in prepared pans. Cover with plastic wrap and leave in warm place until doubled. Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Bake breads 40 minutes. Combine water and cornstarch in saucepan and bring to boil over high heat; boil one minute (1 minute). Brush lightly over bread and return bread to oven --MORE--(92%) when tapped. Remove from pans and allow to cool on racks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of article 250 (of 250)--what next? [npq] yogurt (I used yogurt with active culture). Cover and let stand for 18-24 hours until curds have formed. Mix in 1 cup flour, let stand in warm place f Message-ID: <1992Aug24.105019.18409@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 24 Aug 92 15:50:18 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 75 # From: schatz@void.rtsg.mot.com (Steve Schatz) # Subject: yogurt starter All this talk about yogurt, I though I'd mention the sourdough starter that I use which was started from store bought yogurt. Before joining this list, and not really knowing much about sourdough, I started making sourdough bread from the recipes in the Sunset Bread Book. The starter recipe (as I remember it) is as follows: Heat a cup of lowfat milk to about 90 deg. Mix into this 3 Tbsp plain --MORE--(26%) 18-24 hours until curds have formed. Mix in 1 cup flour, let stand in warm place for 2-5 days until bubbly. Store in the refrigerator. The starter is used by adding equal parts of warm milk and flour, proofing, and returning 1-2 cups back to the refrigerator. This starter is called for in all of the sourdough recipes, but only 1 or 2 cups. This book also calls for yeast in every single recipe - I have left it out and adjusted the rise times. I make a 3 flour (whole wheat, white and rye) brown sourdough bread with it. The final rise takes about 2-3 hours. The starter is very active. When proofing for a recipe, this starter will add about 25-30% in volume when going from cold to warm, so I have to be real careful to put it in a large enough bowl for the amount I am making. I have been using it for about 6 months and have probably made 3 dozen loaves. About a month ago I started a goldrush starter and got my first decent bread from it last Saturday. At this point, the yogurt starter is about as sour as the Goldrush, but the flavors are different. --MORE--(63%) might want to try it. The bread turns out real well. Steve Schatz Phone: +1-708-632-7090 FAX: +1-708-632-2431 Motorola INC. schatz@rtsg.mot.com # Subject: Sourdough # From: jackson@src.honeywell.com (Mike Jackson) David, My first loaf turned out great! I put about 2 Tbs starter into 1 cup of water and 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour when I got home friday night. I stirred it saturday morning. I compared the descriptions of classes of starter from the starter.doctor file and I decided it was healthy. --MORE--(82%) Sunday morning, I mixed up a 1/3 batch of the "World" Bread recipe and kneaded it in my automatic bread maker for about 15 minutes. I removed it and put in in a buttered bread pan in the oven with the light on and a pan of hot water. Let rise for 3 hours. It rose more than double into a nice loaf. I baked for 10 minutes at 375 and 30 minutes at 350. It tastes great! Even my wife was impressed. Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know if I try any experimenting. Mike Jackson End of article 255 (of 263)--what next? [npq] From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Summary: sourdoughs are biologically complex, but some things are known Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 92 00:08:53 GMT References: <1992Aug10.155325.6097@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: delwiche@bio.indiana.edu Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 105 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu I've been slow to respond, but we were having a bit of a discussion about the biology of sourdoughs, and in particular the place of San Francisco sourdough in the context of other sourdoughs. One key question was whether or not there was solid evidence for a relationship between where (geographically) the dough is made and the microflora of the dough. It turns out that there has been a fair bit of research done on the microbiology of sourdough, and I have been trying to catch up on that. I'll try to write what I have to say in a way that people who are --MORE--(18%) interested, but I'm going to include some references, so forgive me if this gets a little dry for the non biologists. In article <1992Aug10.155325.6097@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article 3Iu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Char les Delwiche) writes: >|It seems to me to be fairly well demonstrated that there ARE different >|kinds of sourdough, and that the pacific coast sourdoughs are >|distinctive. > > >I am not so sure that this is well demonstrated. Specifically whether or >not there is more variation in culture characteristics from place to place >on the west coast, or from region to region across the country, or from >continent to continent. (No argument at all about whether or not there are >different kinds of sourdough.) [deleted text] >I really wish we had some people in this group who were able to contribute >any additional information, but as far as I am aware there is not >a whole lot of study done beyond this. I'm still working on the core question as to the relationship between the San Francisco microflora and San Francisco sourdough. I can --MORE--(36%) the opinion that there _is_ a relationship between the two. There is, however, good evidence that wild taxa can and do invade sourdough starters. For example Loenner et al. (Current Microbiology 20: 201 1990) found that "during fermentation of bakery sour dough, strains other than the inoculated starter gradually became dominant in the microflora". This article is also of interest because it studied the plasmid content of bacteria in sourdough starter (if you know what that means, you might want to look at the paper). Other studies have looked at fair numbers of starters, and compared their microfloras. Galli et al. (Microbiologie-Aliments-Nutrition 6:345 1988) looked at 20 starters and found a pretty wide variety of lactobacilli and yeast. In all the cultures they looked at, lactobacilli outnumbered the yeast. Sourdough is like most other microbiologically produced foods in that the fermentation is complex, with each batch going through an ecological succession of different taxa. In other words some critters start early, but get wiped out later on by other more slowly growing critters. (There is a lot of literature which is aimed at getting a good sourdough starter into continuous culture, which is what you want if you are going to mass-produce sourdough). This means that just counting species present isn't really going to tell you what is going on, but a culture --MORE--(58%) yeast) is going to be quite different from one with _S. exiguus_, because those two species don't do the same thing biochemically. Most importantly _S. exiguus_ can't ferment maltose (a sugar), which is essential for _Lactobacillus san francisco_. What is important for sourdough is what combinations of taxa are present. The yeasts and lactobacilli live in loose symbiotic associations, where they depend upon other taxa to digest foods that they can't digest themselves, but they also have to live with taxa that don't compete for the same basic food (for example maltose). In the context of european sourdoughs, the microbiology of the San Francisco sourdoughs is rather unusual. I'm waiting for more information on the work done by L. Kline, M. Miller, T. Sugihara and others at the USDA in Albany, CA, (the "San Francisco study" referred to previously), and will post more when I know more about those studies. For those of you who read German (not me), there is a lot out there for you to read. There is a book that sounds great: Handbuch Sauerteig. Biologie, Biochemie, Technologie [Sourdough Handbook. Biology, biochemistry, technology], by G. Spicher and H. Stephan (1984), ISBN 3-922528-37-6. If anyone finds that in English (or --MORE--(78%) I have done a partial literature search, and have two or three hundred references on academic studies of sourdough, but I hate to post such a thing to the net. It wasn't at all hard to find these references; I basically just went to a CD ROM and typed "sourdough" and "sour dough", and up popped enough references to keep me busy. If you don't have access to the appropriate databases, and you want to get serious about the sourdough scientific literature, send me direct email, and I will upload and email what I have to you. One practical thing I gleaned from the literature: be really careful with the salt concentration in your starter and dough. The salt concentration can have an enormous influence on the leavening capabilities of your sourdough (see Galal et al., _Cereal Chemistry_ 55:683 1978). If you are trying to cut down on your salt, better not do it by leaving the salt out of your dough. At least that is what the literature says, and it is consistent with my own baking experience. What have other people found? I hope I wasn't too boring... -- --MORE--(95%) Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 263 (of 263)--what next? [npq] 315 Article 315 (64 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:23:58 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 41 One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage. This should have some strong implications for the debate that has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough cultures. 1) There is no yeast involved in the villi culture so there is no question about whether just the "yeast alone survived". 2) The villi culture responded and made villi. Villi is --MORE--(41%) this was not just yogurt. The probability that I just happened to have a local strain of villi on my fingers at the time I tried to revive the villi culture seems to be extremely remote. The most likely explaination is that the villi culture came in the mail from Seismo Malm and that it did indeed survive the drying process. 3) After arriving in the mail the packet with the dried villi culture from Seismo remained in my freezer for a period of three months before I made any atempt to revive it. This seems to prove that the lactobacilli can survive long periods of dormancy in frozen conditions. (This seems so reasonable--It would have to in order to survive winters in the wild before being domesticated.) On the otherhand, if you follow the "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" you might propose the theory that the infinite improbability drive caused the Heart of Gold to pass through every point in the Universe, picking up a villi culture in Finland and depositing it in my culture jar just to satisfy my wishes. ;^) --MORE--(91%) --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 315 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 327 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.171653.3709@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 21 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: Date: 28 Aug 92 17:16:52 CDT uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu (Christina Callihan) writes: |A plasmid, once it's in a bacterium, is duplicated, expressed and generally |treated the same way the cell's own chromosome is. For those of you who |weren't forced to study bacterial genetics ( :) ), bacteria have a loop of |DNA for their chromosome, instead of long strands that glom up into |several chromosomes during cell division, like we have. So plasmids can |be thought of as "mini-chromosomes", since they provide a template for |protein production, just like the "normal" chromosome. They are much |smaller than the main chromosome though. | I can see now that I misunderstood the description of a plasmid, or that --MORE--(77%) Not a sub-micro-organism but a loop of DNA. Thanks. --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 327 (of 336)--what next? [npq] From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm) Message-ID: <1992Aug29.112433.20739@jyu.fi> Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 11:24:33 GMT Lines: 27 (bread) Yeast can ferment starch, if conditions are right. For example, some moonshiners make their stuff from (boiled) potatoes, witch are practically 100 % starch. The recipe goes something like that: take 10 kg of old potatoes, boil em and peel. Mush with water and add juice of two lemons. Dilute to 30 l and add yeast. It will take forever to ferment (2-3 months) and taste awfull. Distillation will produce a vodka like drink, not surprisingly because most vodkas are made from potatoes. In some parts of Finland, it was customary to bake bread only two times a year. Bread was dried and eat as a lunch box. The culture was just left to dry on the wooden dough tub. Before making the bread, water was added several days ahead and flour added gradually. The bread was of course 100% rye. --MORE--(79%) This speaks for lactobasilli surviving drying for about half a year and freecing too. In those days, as little of things as could be kept on the warm part of house were kept there and non-used dough tub was often stored in the cold part. seismo -- ------- sm@tukki.jyu.fi (seismo malm) End of article 329 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 330 (60 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Message-ID: <1992Aug29.164706.25462@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:47:06 GMT Lines: 31 In article <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: > > >One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli >do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage. >This should have some strong implications for the debate that >has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive >the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough >cultures. > > [reasoning deleted for space] > --MORE--(57%) I agree 100%! In the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Quite obvious my dear Watson!" Didn't one of those brilliant microbioligist types on the net explain one time about how yeast sporulate and bacteria like lactobacilli form some type of shell or casing when living conditions get worse? Hey you out there! Could we get a re-run on what bacteria do when the environment worsens? Like when it gets too cold or too dry? Oh yeah, I'll be restarting my design-of-experiments (DOE) samples, all 8 of them, this week and will be posting my subjective findings on what appears to be the best way to dry starter. Larry Z. is still working on the offical microorgnanism counts in the sample I sent him (duplicate of my 8 samples). Brian D. End of article 330 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Message-ID: <1992Aug29.163852.24688@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Date: 29 Aug 92 16:38:52 GMT References: <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.c b.att.com> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Distribution: na Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 37 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> ccbjr@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (charles.c.bahr..jr) writes: >In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: >>Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >>line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >>breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one >>malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. >>The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would --MORE--(52%) >>normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and >>add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are >>produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and >>lactobacilli. >> >>Sorry if I confused anyone. >> >Well, now I'm really confused. Why is it that bread can be made without >added sugars? Is there any way yeasts can eat starch, albeit slowly? >Thanks for any info. > 1) Bread is made from ground up grain...with water added, so the amylase in the flour results in a partial digestion of the starch, resulting in sugar. 2) The yeast in the starter (which has been added to the bread) digests the sugars from the grain-provided amylase, thereby producing more amylase from the yeast. 3) The yeast-provided amylase results in more sugars from the starch getting digested by the yeast-provided amylase. 4) The yeast digests the new sugars making more yeast-provided amylase. 5) Go to step 3... --MORE--(95%) BD PS: Note that in the above cycle, no sugar or sweeteners were added, just starter, flour, and water. End of article 331 (of 336)--what next? [npq] >|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are >|produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and >|lactobacilli. >| >|Sorry if I confused anyone. >| >| >|-- >|---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more ca333 Article 333 (57 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Message-ID: <1992Aug29.165223.25858@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Date: 29 Aug 92 16:52:23 GMT References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 54 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charl es Delwiche) writes: >|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >|breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one >|malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. >|The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, >|but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would >|normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and >|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are --MORE--(38%) >|lactobacilli. >| >|Sorry if I confused anyone. >| >| >|-- >|---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... >|Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true >| |and sufficient." I. Newton > > > >Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, >which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >amylase until the process of germination begins. (I think I picked up this >idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.) When the seed begins to germinate >amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from >storage. Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form. >Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase. >Anyway I would like more information on the subject. (Not that you don't >have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.) --MORE--(70%) >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > I guess the question I would have is whether or not amylase is released chemically from the components of the grain when it gets wet, or if the grain needs to be in its original, unadulterated seed-form for the amylase to be released, i.e. for germination. For example, if whole grain dried wheat berries release amylase to 'unlock' the thing so it'll germinate, is it a chemical reaction with water in a part of the berry? Maybe if the thing is ground up, then mixed with water, the amylase is released anyway even though the berry is not whole anymore. This would then imply that since we do not live in a 0% relative humidity environment that flour would always have some, albeit small, amount of released amylase in it. More would be released when it gets wet, thereby providing the sugars that yeast need to feed on. BD End of article 333 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 2 334 Article 334 (56 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Message-ID: <1992Aug29.170447.26694@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:04:47 GMT Lines: 67 In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: >In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >>In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Char les Delwiche) writes: >>|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >>|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >>|breaks it down into sugars. > >>|Sorry if I confused anyone. > --MORE--(26%) >> >>Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, >>which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >>amylase until the process of germination begins. > >I probably should have just stuck with my original argument, but now >that I have gotten everyone, including myself confused, I went and >looked it up. The enzyme in question, alpha-amylase, is apparently >indeed not produced by _Saccharomyces_, either by _S. exiguus_ or _S. >cerevisiae_. David Adams is right; the amylases in grains are not >generally released until germination has begun. At least this is what >one is always taught. One makes malt by taking barley, moistening it, > > [stuff deleted] > >None the less, in the San Francisco sourdough process, amylase becomes >active without germination of the grain (Saunders, Ng, and Kline, >_Cereal Chem._ 49:86. 1972). They incubated an *acidified* >flour/water mixture (pH 5.0) and found a marked increase in maltose >content. I wonder if the acidification is essential? It helps, >because it inhibits the microorganisms already present in the flour, >but it *might* also help activate the enzyme (I just don't know). If --MORE--(56%) >with a big fungal mycelium, or with a nice sourdough starter, depending >upon how lucky you were. I think that the total amount of maltose >released is small compared to what you get in malted barley, where >almost the entire endosperm (what we eat) is converted to sugar. > >So you can make sourdough without adding sugar because sugar is >produced during the development of the starter. The lactobacilli >don't use up all of the maltose produced, so there is enough to add >flavor to the bread, and also help the crust brown nicely. There are >also enough sugars other than maltose produced that _S. exiguus_ can >grow. > >I don't know to what extent this applies to other kinds of sourdough. >I'll be looking into that when I have some time. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... >Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true > |and sufficient." I. Newton Well, now I'm confused again...Is there or isn't there an active sugar- producing enzyme in flour? Can yeast utilize starch at all, or can --MORE--(88%) it's acidic, but commercial yeast isn't (is it?) and it feeds on flour just fine. If yeast can only utilize sugar and there *is* an active sugar-producing enzyme in flour, then where did the enzyme come from if not from germination? Or are there other sugars in flour that exist in the wheat berry *before* germination, thereby allowing the yeast feeding cycle to begin? Brian D. dixon@spot.colorado.edu End of article 334 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 335 Article 335 (55 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Message-ID: <1992Aug29.171240.27561@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.191910.3807@ecst.csuchico.edu> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:12:40 GMT Lines: 28 In article <1992Aug28.191910.3807@ecst.csuchico.edu> mgum@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU wri tes: >Sourdough Friends; > I have been feeding my starter potato water, flour and sugar. The other day >it was real active and overflowed my container. I put the starter in >the fridge in hopes to slow down the reaction. I finally got a chance to >make some bread the other day. I took the starter and let it warm to room >temp before proceding. The bread tastes pretty good. My starter is now >bubbling away again and tastes *SOUR* . My question is: > Is the starter still good?? After spending a week in the refrigerator?? > What is the proper way to slow down the bubbling, raising that occurs in >the starter (other than get a larger container)?? --MORE--(55%) To prevent the overflow, you can do one of three things: 1) Larger container (huk yuk yuk!), 2) keep an eye on it and give the bowl a good THUMP on the counter to release the gases, 3) mix your starter a little thinner for proofing so the gases can pass through it easier. I think a combination of making the starter the right consistency (thick pancake batter/thin mud) and using a large enough bowl is the best answer. Something else that works, i.e if you don't have a large enough bowl, is to use plastic wrap that really grips your bowl well so the sides won't leak, then poke a couple of holes with a fork near the center of the plastic on top of the bowl (further distance from the edge) then place the bowl on a paper plate during proofing. The holes in the center mean that oozing starter has to go further before spilling off the side, and since it generally will cling and run down the side of the bowl, the paper plate will catch the overflow. BD End of article 335 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 311 Article 311 (52 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: sak@geosc.psu.edu (Sridhar Anandakrishnan) Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 15:30:11 GMT Sender: news@ems.psu.edu Distribution: rec.food.sourdough Organization: Geosciences Dept., Penn State Univ., University Park, PA, USA Lines: 22 Has anybody tried the "Flemish Desem Bread" in Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book? It sounds like a type of sourdough. At least there is no yeast involved, and a starter made from flour and water alone. The curioous thing about the desem (as I understand the description, not having done it yet) is that the starter is _buried_ in your crock of flour, and every day you take out this little ball of starter, cut off a crust that forms around it, add some water and flour, knead, and rebury it in the flour. After 2weeks it is ready, and you use part of this starter to make the desem. It doesn't sound as if the starter has any exposure to the air to allow any lactobacilli to land in it?? --MORE--(74%) will probably try it soon, but if anybody has any input... Incidentally, Laurel's Kitchen is a good book of whole-wheat recipes, including a few Indian ones -- dosa, chapati, and idli. There is a sourdough recipe or two in there (other than desem) but they use yeast to begin the starter (boo,hiss :-) ). Sridhar. End of article 311 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Message-ID: <1992Aug28.133108.10755@jyu.fi> Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland References: <1992Aug27.101417.15231@cs.joensuu.fi> <1992Aug27.145157.25259@hemlo ck.cray.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:31:08 GMT Lines: 39 In article <1992Aug27.145157.25259@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article 15231@cs.joensuu.fi, jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi (Jussi Salonen) writes: >| >|In Finland I think viili is one alternative to yogurt. You can make >|more viili from viili and milk as David C. Adams did, but you shouldn't >|use it as a saladsauce. >| >|I used to eat viili with sugar and fresh berries. For foodmaking we have >|an other kind of viili. It is called kermaviili (cream viili). >| >|rgds Jussi >| >|Dept. of computer science >|University of Joensuu, Finland --MORE--(61%) >|jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi >| > >Do you make kermaviili by feeding the viili culture fresh cream? > >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > Fresh cream has got a bit too much milk fat to my taste, but mixing milk and fresh cream works fine. I think that commercial kermaviili one has fat content of about 10%. If you are planning to use it for cooking something like 10%-20% sould be ok. seismo -- ------- --MORE--(97%) End of article 312 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 313 (50 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.134929.11284@jyu.fi> Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough Sender: sm@jyu.fi Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland References: <1992Aug26.144049.2560@hemlock.cray.com> <1992Aug27.151255.26320@hem lock.cray.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:49:29 GMT Lines: 67 In article <1992Aug27.151255.26320@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >I wrote: > >| >|This time it came out like a thick and slimy yogurt. I suppose >|this is more like what the viili was supposed to be like. I >|haven't tasted it yet. >| > >This morning I had a chance to tase the viili. This was an >experience. I can hardly describe it. --MORE--(35%) >It supprised me that it has a very mild taste, almost tasteless. >(How do you describe a new taste? How do you describe the taste >of tofu?) > >I discovered there was a whole new dimension to "slimy". Fun part of article removed. >This batch was raised on powdered milk. (No fat) Siesmo >indicated that the villi wasn't so slimy like when >whole milk was used so I will have to try that. > > >For you fellow Estado Unodenses (US citizens) I will >have viili culture available just like the sourdough >cultures. Send SASE and a SMALL ziplock bag to > >David Adams >1625 Dixon Dr. >St. Paul Park, MN 55071. > >Please email me first. --MORE--(63%) >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > David got it just right. That is how no fat viili should be. Adding more milk powder will make it more firmer and viili from whole milk is considerrably firmer. The starter I send to David was from Valio viili (Valio is a co-operative dairy, the biggest producer of milk products in Finland.) There is a other co-op that produces viili too. their product is a bit firmer, but not so tasty IMHO. Taste of viili can't be described, it is very mild and smooth, but it still has a taste of its own. Especially kids, who don't like other soured foods generally, like viili. seismo --MORE--(97%) -- ------- sm@tukki.jyu.fi (seismo malm) End of article 313 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 316 Article 316 (48 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:30:31 GMT References: Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 37 In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charle s Delwiche) writes: |Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the |line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and |breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one |malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. |The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, |but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would |normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and |add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are |produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and |lactobacilli. | --MORE--(49%) | | |-- |---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... |Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true | |and sufficient." I. Newton Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release amylase until the process of germination begins. (I think I picked up this idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.) When the seed begins to germinate amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from storage. Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form. Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase. Anyway I would like more information on the subject. (Not that you don't have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.) --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com --MORE--(95%) member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 316 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 317 Article 317 (47 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.113350.15339@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:33:49 GMT References: <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 31 In article 24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com, ccbjr@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (charles.c.bahr..j r) writes: |In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: |>Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the |>line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and |>breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one |>malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. |>The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, |>but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would |>normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and |>add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are |>produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and --MORE--(68%) |> |>Sorry if I confused anyone. |> |Well, now I'm really confused. Why is it that bread can be made without |added sugars? Is there any way yeasts can eat starch, albeit slowly? |Thanks for any info. | |-charlie bahr |..disclaimer "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" indicates that Baker's yeast, at least, does produce amylase. Can we check this out anyway? BTW, how is barley malted? --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 317 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 319 Article 319 (45 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu (Christina Callihan) Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 17:11:45 GMT References: <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> Sender: root@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu Lines: 72 In <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com (David Adams) write s: >Charles> == Charles Delwiche >| == Christina Callihan >Charles> This article is also of interest because it studied the >Charles> plasmid content of bacteria in sourdough starter (if you know what >Charles> that means, you might want to look at the paper). >| >|Plasmids are little loops of DNA (genetic material) that are separate from >|the main bacterial chromosome. They are interesting because bacteria can >|trade genetic information in a process called conjugation. So you can >|trace plasmids through different strains to see which ones have the same --MORE--(25%) >|antibiotics) by receiving the right plasmids. >So if I understand this, (let's see if I do) plasmids kind of relate >to bacteria the way that mitochondria do to animal cells, or chloroplasts >do to plant cells? >Is the idea you mention that conjugation leaves the DNA in the plasmid >unafected, hence allowing researchers to to trace the source of different >strains of bacteria? >What function do the plasmids serve? How do they benefit the bacteria. >(Ie. It seems that chloroplasts and mitochondria have mirror roles. >Chloroplasts are responsible for photosynthesis--the process that changes >light energy into sugar. Mitochondria are responsible for changing sugar >(or other fuel?) and converting it into ATP. Did I get that right? >Does the plasmid have some mirror role?) A plasmid, once it's in a bacterium, is duplicated, expressed and generally treated the same way the cell's own chromosome is. For those of you who weren't forced to study bacterial genetics ( :) ), bacteria have a loop of DNA for their chromosome, instead of long strands that glom up into several chromosomes during cell division, like we have. So plasmids can --MORE--(55%) protein production, just like the "normal" chromosome. They are much smaller than the main chromosome though. (By the way, if Charles or anyone else catches mistakes in what I'm passing along here, please correct me. It has been a while since my Modern Genetics courses. :) In conjugation, a tube forms between a bacterium that has a particular plasmid, and one that doesn't. The plasmid is duplicated and fed through the tube to the other cell. I've forgotten whether or not this process ever happens with the main chromosome. As for what "purpose", plasmids serve, it all depends on what kind of proteins it codes for. Scientists can even put together their own plasmids, introduce them into a bacterial culture, and then use them as markers for tracing mutations and mapping the chromosome. I think I'm getting to the limits of what I can explain without resorting to my textbook. :) Geneticists are doing so much with plasmid research these days, there are probably tons of applications that I never studied. --MORE--(81%) ____________________________________________________________________________ If You Know What | Christina M. Callihan | Doing STRANGE THINGS You're Doing, | AKA C-chan, Bwee, Chrystal- | in the name of Art, It's Not | Elf & Who Knows What Else | and STRANGER THINGS Research! | (I sure don't) | in the name of => => => => => | uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu | CHOCOLATE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- When life gets weird, the weird get a life. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The opinions in this post are not endorsed by the University of California at Santa Barbara....THANK GOODNESS!!!!!!!!! ;^} ) End of article 319 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 322 Article 322 (42 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.175945.10435@acd4.acd.com> Summary: anyone used one? Keywords: hybrid,culture,starter Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:59:45 GMT Lines: 35 Please bear with me a little. Someone sent me email requesting my experience with hybrid cultures. He had requested that I post it if I didn't have an answer as he was having difficulty doing so himself. Unfortunately, I promptly lost the message and cannot remember his address. Sorry about that! Anyway, he had run across a catalog for whole and milled grains that also offered a culture that was supposed to be a hybrid of a 250 year old east coast culture, one that had ridden by plane to an earlier World's Fair, and one other culture - possibly a Yukon type. --MORE--(47%) answers. Have any of you had actual experience with such a culture? From what has been posted about the organisms and their life-cycles, I would guess that the resulting culture would be about as predictable as one started by direct exposure to the environment. I would think that cross-breeding between the strains would not be likely unless the culture had its temperature cycled repeatedly before the ecology stabilized with the new dominant strains. Wouldn't it be more likely that the faster growing yeasts and lactobacilli would end up dominating? This brings up another interesting question that I have posted before. I am trying to keep multiple active cultures in the same kitchen and refrigerator and am really concerned about cross-contamination. How easy is it for yeasts and lacto-bacilli to invade other cultures if basic kitchen procedures are followed? By this, I mean that I thoroughly wash and scald all containers and implements before using them with a particular culture. If anyone has other methods they use, please post! -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) End of article 322 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 323 Article 323 (41 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 19:59:58 GMT References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 67 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charl es Delwiche) writes: >|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >|breaks it down into sugars. >|Sorry if I confused anyone. To this David Adams wrote: > --MORE--(27%) >which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >amylase until the process of germination begins. I probably should have just stuck with my original argument, but now that I have gotten everyone, including myself confused, I went and looked it up. The enzyme in question, alpha-amylase, is apparently indeed not produced by _Saccharomyces_, either by _S. exiguus_ or _S. cerevisiae_. David Adams is right; the amylases in grains are not generally released until germination has begun. At least this is what one is always taught. One makes malt by taking barley, moistening it, letting it go about three days into the germination process (until the root it just beginning to emerge), then killing the sucker by roasting it in an oven. Grind the malt up with a rolling pin or a food processor and you are ready to make beer (don't forget to do the sparging and all that, and you might want to plant your hop plants a bit before you start germinating the barley). None the less, in the San Francisco sourdough process, amylase becomes active without germination of the grain (Saunders, Ng, and Kline, _Cereal Chem._ 49:86. 1972). They incubated an *acidified* flour/water mixture (pH 5.0) and found a marked increase in maltose content. I wonder if the acidification is essential? It helps, --MORE--(65%) but it *might* also help activate the enzyme (I just don't know). If you tried to do this without acidifying the mixture you would end up with a big fungal mycelium, or with a nice sourdough starter, depending upon how lucky you were. I think that the total amount of maltose released is small compared to what you get in malted barley, where almost the entire endosperm (what we eat) is converted to sugar. So you can make sourdough without adding sugar because sugar is produced during the development of the starter. The lactobacilli don't use up all of the maltose produced, so there is enough to add flavor to the bread, and also help the crust brown nicely. There are also enough sugars other than maltose produced that _S. exiguus_ can grow. I don't know to what extent this applies to other kinds of sourdough. I'll be looking into that when I have some time. --MORE--(91%) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 323 (of 336)--what next? [npq] From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 20:09:54 GMT References: <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 23 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu Thank you Christina for your explanation of plasmids. Sounded right to me. I can't remember if the main bacterial chromosome participates in conjugation or not. I certainly associate conjugation with the exchange of *plasmids*, not the main chromosome. I originally had a mini essay on plasmids in one of my postings, but it was getting too long and involved, so I just axed it. Plasmids in sourdough bacteria do _not_ seem to contain genes to allow fermentation of particular sugars. Which sugars the bacterium is able to utilize seems to be encoded on its main chromosome. Plasmids _do_ --MORE--(65%) presumably for resistance to these toxins as well. If you put a plasmid free strain of the "right" bacterium into a sourdough starter it gets eliminated by strains that do have plasmids. I don't know what else (of importance to sourdough) might be encoded on plasmids. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 324 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 3577 Article 3577 (8 more) in sci.bio: From: dadams@cherry10.cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Jan3.171611.25599@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 3 Jan 92 23:16:11 GMT Sender: dadams@cherry10 (David Adams) Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 19 Originator: dadams@cherry10 I have created a little mailing list for people who are interested in sourdough cooking. This is a fourm for exchanging information about sourdough cultures, recipes, the care and feeding of cultures etc. I have wished from time to time that I had some biologist type readers who whould be able to field questions that arrise at times about the nature of yeasts and lactobacilli. If there are any takers, meaning any biologists or biology students, who are interested in sourdough cooking, and would like to be on --MORE--(72%) David C. Adams E-mail: dadams@cray.com Statistical Analyst uunet!cray!daadams Cray Research, Inc. Phone: (612) 683-5332 Fax: (612) 683-5599 If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs. End of article 3577 (of 3585)--what next? [npq] Article 912 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba!concert!gatech!udel!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail From: HF.MMX@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marilee Marshall) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Sourdough Corn Bread Recipe Date: 18 Feb 1993 09:13:41 -0800 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 21 Sender: news@morrow.stanford.edu Message-ID: <1m0g45INN86d@morrow.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu Thought some of you 'ol Sourdough's would like my cornbread recipe. It's a super one. Doesn't keep well, but is reminescent of campfires and hearty soup suppers. SOURDOUGH CORN BREAD 1 cup starter 1 1/2 cup corn meal 1 1/2 cup evaporated milk 2 eggs, beaten Mix together and add: 1/4 cup melted butter 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 tsp. soda Pour batter into 10" greased frying pan (iron skillet is best). Bake for 25-30 minutes at 450*. (Does not require proofing). Serve hot with lots of butter and honey. Yum. Article 1219 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!iris.mincom.oz.au!hans From: hans@iris.mincom.oz.au (Hans Plambeck) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Another way to make bread Message-ID: <6607@iris.mincom.oz.au> Date: 22 Jun 93 04:22:04 GMT Organization: Mincom, Brisbane, Australia Lines: 40 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9] Being idle for a while I was reading through this; probably never going to read this newsgroup again. But here is my suggestion to make bread - as I do it for many years. To start: 50g rye flour + 50ml water -> at room temp covered up 36-48 hours (48 hours for 20C) add 50g + 50ml and mix -> wait 24 hrs add 200g + 200ml -> wait 24 hrs There is a high success rate, if it is too hot (>28C) you have to shift it between Fridge and outside. It should smell sour; but it might not be bubbly. Take away around 50g of this mixture and store in fridge (half a cup, have a lit). Good for at least 1-2 weeks. If you want to keep it longer, take away around 30g and mix with rye till not moist anymore. The next time around: Use the leftover and mix with 375g + 375ml and wait for 24hours. Then again, store about 50g for the next time. The quality of the sourdough is getting better from time to time! After around 4-6 times it is real good stuff and all bubbly. In a hot climate it might then only need 6 day-hours to mature. Well now you have around 750g of sourdough. add 300g of white flour, 300ml of warm water 30g of salt and some yeast (half a block, 3 spoons,..) mix and wait for half an hour. You might want to add peppercorns, onions,... go for it. knead into your favourite form. wait for an hour. Bake for 50 minutes or for 30 if you just do bread-rolls. Its an old receipe collected about 12 years back in Germany; its been published in a book by Jean Pfuetz(?) together with other things you can do yourself eg make wine from honey... good stuff...-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans-J Plambeck | hans@mincom.oz.au | +61 (7) 364 9999, Fax 394 2844 Mincom Pty Ltd. | Juliette St. || P.O.Box 72 | Stones Corner 4120 Qld Article 1378 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: coyote@crl.com (Sean Gould) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: More sources for starter recipies Date: 19 Sep 1993 12:36:15 -0700 Organization: CRL Internet Dialup Access 415-705-6060 (guest) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <27icbf$90l@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] Hi - this is in response to the person who was looking for ways to make starters from scratch. The best source I have found for making a starter (especialy if you've never done it before like me at the time) is The Garden Way Bread Book on pages 28 and 29. I don't know if its still in print, but if you can find it get this book! Its my favorite bread book for all kinds of breads not just sour dough and its very easy to read and follow. My book says it was published in 1979 by Garden Way Associates and lists the auther as Ellen Foscue Johson. Hope this helps - Melodi Article 1267 of rec.food.sourdough: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uwvax!uchinews!raistlin!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Subject: Re: Louisiana Hot Sauce = Tabasco Message-ID: <1993Aug4.150741.13027@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 4 Aug 93 20:07:41 GMT References: Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 218 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 I have had several requests for more information. I don't remember who I replied to in what follows, but here is more info: > Sounds like a great idea. I have three types of hot peppers growing in my garden >and I am looking for different things to do with them. What do you need and how >do you brine cure peppers? Is it a long proccess? etc. > Thanks for any help >..greg I used a 5 gal plastic bucket instead of a pickle crock. I suppose if you want to look authentic you will use a pickle crock or maybe one of those wooden barels? I get the idea that tabasco is brine cured in wooden casks. I used a 10% brine solution. This is pretty salty. When I do dills I only use 2.5%. Otherwise I think the dills are too salty. However when I use peppers I usually use then like a spice. I don't tend to sit down and eat them like pickles, so if they are salty that is ok. I just don't add as much salt to the recipe that I am using them in. You can brine cure them with a 2.5% brine solution as well. The only advantage you get from the higher salt content is that you can store them that way nearly permanently. Well not permantently but I kept mine in brine for a year with out canning and had no problems at all. If you use 2.5% brine, you will need to can them after a few months. If you are going to use them with in a few months they will probably be ok anyway. I used 2.5% bine on my dills in September and they were ok through December. In January they went bad and I composted the whole lot. You won't have to worry about botullism with the brine curing since it is an areobic process, also acidic. To make the brine for the 10% solution I mixed one quart of vinegar to each quart of water. I boiled this so the salt would disolve more readily. I added 1 cup of pickling salt for each repitition of the above. (One quart H20, One quart vinegar, and one cup salt.) to this and stired it to let it disolve. (This should be close to 10%.) I let it cool so that when I apply it the brine will not kill any of the lactobacilli that may be on the peppers. I wash the peppers and leave the stems on. I experimented with cutting the stems off and with poking each pepper with a pin to allow brine in. I found no advantage to either practice. Peppers with the stems on and no pin holes were full of brine after curing just as the others. Fill the bucket/crock/cask with peppers. Leave a couple of inches at the top. Cover these with cool brine (room temp.) Place an upside down plate over the peppers and place a weight on top to force them all under the surface of the brine. Cover the top somehow to keep dust from falling in. (I put the lid on the 5 gal bucket. This was not air tight. There was a small object between the lid and the dish like a small cup. The lid pushed down on the cup and this kept the plate under water. Store it in a cool dry place for 2 or 3 months. Each day, or at least every other day open the crock and scrape off any scum that forms. Sometime along about the first week you should notice some small bubbles begin to form. This indicates that the fermentation is underway. This is actually alot more vinegar than any recipe I have ever seen call for. You may want to try less or none at all. Many recipes call for salt only. The lactobacilli should produce lactic acid anyway, and that is responsible for the sour in brine cure pickles. I used vinegar because I liked how it worked and tasted. You do what you find tastes good. The lable on the tabasco indicates that they do use vinegar. Of course they don't say how much. I have seen recipes that use only 1 cup of vinegar for several quarts. I like a vinegary salty pickled pepper. Note also that tabasco is aged for a long long time (years?) in wooden casks. Fermentation has ended, but the flavoring continues to develop this way. I asume they use special wooden casks for this. The choice of wood will affect the flavor. Balsamic vinegar is processed in wooden casks in much the same way. Also many wines? Any way one point is that they must be using the higher salt concentration (10%?) so that they can cure the sauce for a long time like this with out it growing some mold etc. When I make a sauce a la tabasco etc. I take peppers that I have already brine cured and toss them in the blender seeds and all. Ok I remove the stems first. Then I blend them to a fine texture. I might add a little of the brine sauce to give it the right texture. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh! I try to save fancy old bottles with narrow necks to serve it in. ;^) Here is some information I once sent someone else on brine curing vegies: I get this information from "Pickles & Relishes", by Andrea Chesman, A Garden Way Publishing Book, 1983. ISBN 0-88266-321-6 see pp. 28-39, 68-71, 113. The rest of the book is dedicated to conventional pickle making. (Or I should say non-zymo or non-cultured pickle making.) I am using the outline from p. 30-32, but it is almost all my own words and commentary. I recomend the book. 1 First wash the *vegtables*. Do not use HOT water, as we don't want to kill micro-organisms. Warm water is fine. 2 Weigh the *vegtables*. (Used to calculate how much salt to use. The book says this is important, but I don't see how as none of the recipes use the calculation.) (Note: none of the recipes actually called for this. Most of them dealt with volume, vs. volume of brine.) 3 Wash the crock (it can be a 5 gal plastic bucket) with hot soapy water. Rinse and scald with boiling water. Dry. (If you are using a wooden cask, it is often assumed that the pickles are inoculated with the lactobacilli that are residing in the wood from the last batch of pickles to be cured in the cask, hence hot boiling water would not be recomended.) 4 Prepare the brine. (this will vary by the recipe. You want the brine to be 2.5% salt. The book doesn't say % by weight or what, but in another place it indicates that 1 1/2 tablespoons of granulated pickling salt to each quart of water should do the job. p. 38.) Table salt might color the pickles. (Ok no worry with olives.) In some recipes this will include vinegar. The recipes for sauerkraut don't call for any vinegar, does the lactobacilli provide all that sourness? The recipe on p. 68 for fermented dills does not call for any vinegar. The recipe on p. 71 for cured dills calls for 2 cups white vinegar for 2 gallons of water. The recipe on p. 113 for green tomato crock pickles calls for 2 cups of vinegar for 2 gallons of water. Most recipes, but not all, recomend bringing the water to a boil to add the salt. (and vinegar? I would want to avoid boiling off the vinegar, so I might add it after the brine cools?) They say to do this to kill any micro-organisms in the water to give the lactobacilli on the *vegetables* a better chance at taking over. We must note that curing in not a steril process like canning, but one where we are trying to use a live culture like in sourdough. Mix the salt into the hot water. The brine must cool before use or it will kill any lactobacilli on the *vegtables*. With the sauerkraut recipes you don't add any brine, but just mix salt with the sliced cabbage and weigh it down. Beverly Erlebacher has recently submitted an excelent recipe/directions for making sauerkraut, so I won't go into that. PACK THE CROCK 5 Loading the crock varies according to the recipe. Dill pickles are often packed in layers with layers of dill and spices between the rows of cucumbers. One recipe calls for laying the small cucumbers on the bottom so that they don't float as easily to the top. 6 Pour (cooled) brine over the *vegetables*. Use enough brine to cover the *vegetables*. 7 Place a large inverted plate over the vegetables and put a weight on it to hold the vegetables under the water. CURING THE PICKLES 8 The curing process (lacto-bacterial fermentation) should begin in a few days. If you want the pickles to be half sour, or not as sour as fully cured pickles you can taste them every so often, and decide to stop the process. 9 Every day you should remove the scum that forms on the top of the brine. 10 Every day you should tap the sides of the crock gently to see if bubbles rise. This indicates that fermentation continues. Fermentation will stop sometime between two and four weeks. 11 Pickles should be stored in the fridge, or in some place just as cold. For long term storage they should be canned. Pack the pickles into freshly cleaned canning jars. The brine should be strained and boiled. (You might use fresh brine, but then there are reasons for not doing this. I would think that the brine has leached some of the flavor out of the pickles and you don't want to do it again. If you are pickling jalepen~os you will lose alot of the hot it you pour the brine down the drain.) Pour the brine over the pickles in the jars, and seal the jars. You can process them in a steam canner for 15 minutes. The advantage of 10% brine is supposed to be that you don't have to can the pickles. They may be stored that way for up to a year or so. Here are some of the spices indicated in some of the recipes for two gallons of brine Fermented Dills p. 70 8 teaspoons mustard seeds 40 cloves garlic 8 tablespoons dill seeds This recipe indicates that these spices can be added if you wish at the canning stage. I think I would pickle the spices. Cured Dills p. 71 Line the bottom of the crock with grape leaves and dill leaves and sprinkle it with mixed pickling spices. Repeat this between the layers of cucumbers. Green Tomato Crock Pickles p. 113 Same as above, but without the grape leaves. David, N0WWN/AA November Zero Wiskey Wiskey November --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com -Sourdough and Ham- - Minnesotans for Global Warming! - (&gardner) Article 287 (66 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu Message-ID: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Date: 27 Aug 92 05:45:19 GMT Sender: news@raven.alaska.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks Lines: 10 Nntp-Posting-Host: acad3.alaska.edu Thanks for all the help with my starter, it's working great now! I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned, non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though I oil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricks or hints that you can pass on? Thanks! Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu End of article 287 (of 328)--what next? [npq] 290 Article 290 (65 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dudley.chi@xerox.com (Tim Dudley) Message-ID: <1992Aug27.133844.3416@bnr.ca> Date: 27 Aug 92 13:38:44 GMT Sender: news@bnr.ca (usenet) Organization: bnr Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: bcarm91 X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3 You could add slightly more oil or butter to your batter, but it sounds to me like your iron isn't well seasoned. My experience is that if you ever wash the iron, you have to re-season it. Try seasoning it again, the make sure you never never never never wash it. You can clean it either with a brush, or with salt, but if you let soap onto it, it'll take the seasoning off and make stuff stick. Good luck! Tim End of article 290 (of 328)--what next? [npq] Article 290 (65 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dudley.chi@xerox.com (Tim Dudley) Message-ID: <1992Aug27.133844.3416@bnr.ca> Date: 27 Aug 92 13:38:44 GMT Sender: news@bnr.ca (usenet) Organization: bnr Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: bcarm91 X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3 You could add slightly more oil or butter to your batter, but it sounds to me like your iron isn't well seasoned. My experience is that if you ever wash the iron, you have to re-season it. Try seasoning it again, the make sure you never never never never wash it. You can clean it either with a brush, or with salt, but if you let soap onto it, it'll take the seasoning off and make stuff stick. Good luck! Tim End of article 290 (of 328)--what next? [npq] Article 291 (64 more) in rec.food.sourdough: Nntp-Posting-Host: wombat.ee.byu.edu Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 09:48:34 MDT From: earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early) Distribution: world References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA Also, I found that you need to heat the iron, then put the oil on, then let oil heat up before you put the batter in. Most impoirtant is heating the oil. Someone told me once that putting the cold oil on a hot griddle wasn't good, that the cold gridle and oil should be heated together. I have found, however, that puttng cold oil on my hot griddle works much better. Again, you have to let the oil heat up before applying the batter. Dave Early End of article 291 (of 328)--what next? [npq] 295 Article 295 (63 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski) Message-ID: <2251@bigfoot.first.gmd.de> Date: 27 Aug 92 20:07:18 GMT References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Sender: news@bigfoot.first.gmd.de Organization: GMD Berlin (FIRST) Lines: 34 In article , earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early) writes: |> |> Also, I found that you need to heat the iron, then put the oil on, then let |> oil heat up before you put the batter in. Most impoirtant is heating the |> oil. Someone told me once that putting the cold oil on a hot griddle |> wasn't good, that the cold gridle and oil should be heated together. |> |> I have found, however, that puttng cold oil on my hot griddle works |> much better. Again, you have to let the oil heat up before applying |> the batter. I don't much about waffle irons but I have a wonderful iron wok. There I have found the same and think this has some physical background. --MORE--(54%) You can heat the wok up to 250 - 280 degress (right spelling?) Celsius. If you put oil in, it will go to (memories, memories) 180 degress, then it start smoking. So you are in a hurry to put the chicken in. Now the wok cools down, but there is enough energy to heat the chicken up, i.e the soup (I put it into a soy - chilli soup) remains into the chicken. On the other way - cold wok and oil - you can only get 180 degrees until the oil starts smoking. If you now put the chicken in, there is not enough energy and the soup is leaking out. This water cools the wok down too. At last you have only cooked chicken. I think the same happens with waffles. They are hanging at the iron. By the way, did any body have a american - german list with food specific words. I find it heavy to guess always, when I try my english cook-book. |> |> |> Dave Early Hope it helps /gT/ End of article 295 (of 328)--what next? [npq] 299 Article 299 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Message-ID: <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 40 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Date: 27 Aug 92 14:49:58 CDT In article 1@acad3.alaska.edu, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu () writes: |Thanks for all the help with my starter, it's working great now! | |I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned, |non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my |gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though I |oil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone |have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricks |or hints that you can pass on? Thanks! | | Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu --MORE--(46%) (I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talked about it before. I thought it was a real find. Congrads. Where did you get it? How much did you pay?) It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned. Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin coat of peanut oil. I heated in a 400 deg. oven for a long time. (30 min? I don't remember) I repeated this until I had at least 6 coats. When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to the batter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided that that only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to the batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a basting brush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brush well. --- --MORE--(91%) (Be sure to double-check the attribution against the signature, and trim the quoted article down as much as possible.) (leaving cbreak mode; cwd=/bbs/usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London) Invoking command: /usr/bbsfiles/bin/Pnews Lawrence London -h /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.rnhead This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure that you want to do this? [ny] y PICO 1.4 New Buffer ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ [ Reading file ][ Read 54 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughSubject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsSummary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlo$Sender:Followup-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:>In article 1@acad3.alaska.edu, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu () writes:>|Thanks for all the help with my starter, it's working great now!>|>|I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned,>|non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my>|gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though I>|oil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article Modified I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned,non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though Ioil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksI have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned,non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though Ioil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though Ioil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 dif ferent recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though Ioil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduoil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduhave any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricksor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduor hints that you can pass on? Thanks!Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduI'ts hopeless. You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me. ;^)Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduI'ts hopeless. You'll just have to se ll that waffle iron to me. ;^)Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.eduI'ts hopeless. You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me. ;^)(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talkedI'ts hopeless. You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me. ;^)(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talkedabout it before. I thought it was a real find. Congrads. Where diI'ts hopeless. You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me. ;^)(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talkedabout it before. I thought it was a real find. Congrads. Where diyou get it? How much did you pay?)I'ts hopeless. You'll just have to sell that waffle iron to me. ;^)(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talkedabout it before. I thought it was a real find. Congrads. Where diyou get it? How much did you pay?)(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons. I believe I have talkedabout it before. I thought it was a real find. Congrads. Where diyou get it? How much did you pay?)It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.you get it? How much did you pay?)It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atIt helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinIt helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atTheyappearoccasionallyintheantiquemalls/collectiblesempo riumsIt helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.aroundthispartofNorthCarolina.In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:>In article 1@acad3.alaska.edu, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu () writes:>>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin>coat of peanut oil. I heated in a 400 deg. oven for a long time.(30 min? I don't remember) I repeated this until I had at least6 coats.>When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to the>batter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil tothe batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingBefore seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, ( after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thincoat of peanut oil. I heated in a 400 deg. oven for a long time.(30 min? I don't remember) I repeated this until I had at least 6 coats.When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to thebatter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make (30 min? I don't remember) I repeated this until I had at least 6 coats.When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to thebatter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use short ening. It sticks to the brush6 coats.When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to thebatter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to thebatter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.When I cook I thought I could get away with adding extra oil to thebatter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worke d. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---batter and not greasing the iron at all. I eventually decided thatthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.comthat only partially worked. I now prefer not to add extra oil to e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com_____ ______________________________________________________________e batter, but to brush it on the iron between waffles with a bastingbrush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.brush. I repeat this brushing before each new waffle. I try to make the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.the oil coating very thin. I use shortening. It sticks to the brushwell.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Glo bal Warming. well.---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. ---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. ---David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. (I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaroun d this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinThey appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.It helps to have it pr operly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinIt helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbouttherust....ho what'sthebestwaytodealwithitoncastironcookingutensils,esp.waff.irons leirons,cornstickpans,muffinpans?About the rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, esp. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW,asteelWOKisagreatpanformakingmfb+VH2! !?C Cancel Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughSubject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsSummary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlo$Sender:Followup-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bull etin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina. >It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.acad3.alaska.eduEdit a replacement: acad3.alaska.edunZ&acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hearound this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbout the rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, esp. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making mfb+VH2 ~S!-LK!VRM~BTWEdit a replacement: BTWBTWNewsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughSubject: R e: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsSummary:Expires:$59@hemlock.cray.com>Sender:Followup-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:n article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes:>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.cray.comEdit a replacement: cray.com97YH)9 }7V&d|TgI O2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)P7PdP@PP>PeP:Pcray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P>References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@he$cray.comReplace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? 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[y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : cray.com$Qmseq+)7d@>e:P> dadams@cray.com writes:cray.comReplace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cr ay.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace cray.com with cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y ] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P writes:dadamsEdit a replacement: dadamsK/ z {) { dadams@cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq+)7d@>e:P writes:They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbout the rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, esp. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making mfb+VH2 ~S!-LK!VRIM~espEdit a replacement: esp esp. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans? Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughSubject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsSummary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214 519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@he$Sender:Followup-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.FollowupEdit a replacement: Followup Followup-To:hemEdit a replacement: hemlock.cray.com $hem97$hemlock.cray.comReplace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : Replace hemlock.cray.com with ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : ? [y] : hemlock.cray.comaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbout the rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, . waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making mfb+VH2 ~S!-LK!VRM~mfbEdit a replacement: mfb mfb+VH2 ~S! Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughSubject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsSummary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:n article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.NewsgroupsEdit a replacement: Newsgroups Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdoughrec.food.sourdoughEdit a replacement: rec.food.sourdough rec.food.sourdough>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbout the rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, . waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making +VH2 ~S!-LK!VRIM~rust....what'sEdit a replacement: rust....what's rust....what's the best way to deal with it on cast iron[ Done checking spelling ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article Modified ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com 97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina. >It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin:Subject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsummary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Subject: Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problemsmmary:ExpiresReferences: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To: Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atmmary:ExpiresReferences: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To: Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin>(I hav e one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinAbout the the best way to deal with it on cast ironcooking utensils, . waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making +VH2 ~S!-LK!VRIM~ the best way to deal with it on cast ironr the best way to deal with it on cast ironu the best way to deal with it on cast irons the best way to deal with it on cast iront the best way to deal with it on cast iron. the best way to deal with it on cast iron. the best way to deal with it on cast iron. the best way to deal with it on cast iron. the best way to deal with it on cast ironw the best way to deal with it on cast ironh the best way to deal with it on cast irona the best way to deal with it on cast iront the best way to deal with it on cast iron' the best way to deal with it on cast irons the best way to deal with it on cast ironthe best way to deal with it on cast iron i. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?e waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?. waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans?: waffle irons, corn st ick pans, muffin pans? waffle irons, corn stick pans, muffin pans? BTW, a steel WOK is a great pan for making +VH2 ~S!-LK!VRIM~ -LK!VRIM~ IM~ C Cancel [ Writing... ][ Wrote 22 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ Send, abort, edit, or list? s Malformed Newsgroups line. PICO 1.4 New Buffer ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ [ Reading file ][ Read 23 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article From: Lawrence.London@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Lawrence London)Summary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:-To:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article Modified Distribution:Organizat ion: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinrec.food.sourdough>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinC Cancel [ Writing... ][ Wrote 21 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usen et/Lawrence/London/.article ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ Send, abort, edit, or list? s Malformed Newsgroups line. PICO 1.4 New Buffer ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ [ Reading file ][ Read 21 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article From: Lawrence.London@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Lawrence London)Summary:Expires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:Distribution: rec.food.sourdoughOrganization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.>Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thin PICO 1.4 File: / usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article Modified SummaryExpires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts at>rust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinNewsgroups:rec.food.historic sourdoughSummaryExpires:References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasion ally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atSummary:ExpiresReferences: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edunZ&> <1992Aug27.144958.25159@97$Sender:Distribution:Organization: Extended Bulletin Board ServiceKeywords:In article <1992Aug27.144958.25159@hemlock.cray.com97YH}7V&d|TgO2beSA6HdxgQmseq$>(I have one of those cast iron waffle irons.They appear occasionally in the antique malls/collectibles emporiumsaround this part of North Carolina.>It helps to have it properly cleaned and well seasoned.Before seasoning I scrubbed mine hard, (after some misguided efforts atrust removal) and then I seasoned it by coating with a very thinC Cancel [ Writing... ][ Wrote 22 lines ] PICO 1.4 File: /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.arti cle ^G Get Help ^O WriteOut ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify ^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell ^ Send, abort, edit, or list? s Article not accepted by server; not posted. defhdrs.awk: no Subject: header!sh: /usr/spool/news/usenet/dead.article: cannot createArticle appended to /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/dead.article A copy may be temporarily found in /usr/bbsfiles/usenet/Lawrence/London/.article (re-entering cbreak mode) End of article 299 (of 328)--what next? [npq] 251 Re: Bread machines 252 Re: bread machines 264 Re: Wondering about milk... 265 Beginner's question and FAQ request 266 Re: What you get when you get the Wood book 267 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 268 Re: Bread machines 269 Flour Mill 270 Going to San Franciso! 271 Re: Culture Problems 272 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 273 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 274 viili 275 Re: Flour Mill 276 Re: made my own starter yeah ! 277 Re: Culture Problems 278 Re: Culture Problems 279 Re: Culture Problems 280 sourdough starter ecology (was Re: more on the biology of sourdough) 281 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 282 Balsamic Vinegar 283 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 284 Re: Culture Problems [Type space to continue] 286 Requests for starters filled 288 Re: viili 289 Re: viili 292 Sourdough Jack pancakes 293 another FAQ request... 294 Re: Sourdough Jack pancakes 296 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 297 Re: Requests for starters filled 298 Re: viili 299 Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problems 300 Re: viili update 301 Re: Culture Problems 302 Re: viili 303 sourdough ecology clarification 304 in search of the perfect loaf 305 Re: Cast Iron waffle iron problems 306 Requests for starters not yet filled 307 Re: viili 308 Re: Requests for starters filled 309 Re: sourdough ecology clarification 310 Re: viili update 311 Flemish Desem bread from Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book [Type space to continue] 313 Re: viili update 314 Re: Going to San Francisco 315 villi, lactobacilli & dormancy 316 Re: sourdough ecology clarification 317 Re: sourdough ecology clarification 318 Re: Requests for starters filled 319 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 320 Sourdough on a diet 321 New Sinclair Publishing number? 322 Hybrid Cultures 323 Re: sourdough ecology clarification 324 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 325 Starter Overflow 326 Re: sourdough ecology clarification 327 Re: more on the biology of sourdough 328 Re: Bread machines End of article 299 (of 328)--what next? [npq] 305 Article 305 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Message-ID: <1992Aug28.015701.24067@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:57:01 GMT Lines: 46 In article <1992Aug26.214519.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu writes: >Thanks for all the help with my starter, it's working great now! > >I have been trying to make sourdough waffles on an old-fashioned, >non-electric waffle iron, a cast-iron one that sits on top of my >gas stove burner. The problem is that it ALWAYS sticks, even though I >oil it well (and I've tried 3 or 4 different recipies. Does anyone >have any experience with this kind of waffle iron? Are there any tricks >or hints that you can pass on? Thanks! > > Sandra Chaffin, fnsjc@acad3.alaska.edu --MORE--(34%) on waffle irons...very frustrating. This'll even happen on the teflon ones. This is of course also why these oils are good for seasoning iron. The oil starts out slick, then when it's heated to a high temperature, it gets stickier and stickier and finally hardens into black/brown stuff. The key to making the waffle irons work ok, is to use BUTTER (not margarine) to oil the thing. Once my iron waffle iron was seasoned, I started the habit of washing it immediately after each use (yes, with detergent), then I heat it up to dry out any water. Each time I use it, I preheat it really well, i.e. put it on the fire before you mix up the waffles, then I melt some butter in a cup (microwave). Just before putting in waffle batter, I use a 2" camel hair paintbrush to quickly apply a thin coat of butter. The soft brush gets to all the nooks and crannies, but it'll burn if you take too much time at it. Every since I figured out this trick, the waffle iron has been working great. I actually only butter after each third waffle...the others don't stick. Even better than butter, if you have it or wish to make it, is clarified butter. You just melt a bunch of butter (salt free is better) in a sauce pan, then simmer it for about an hour, skimming off any residue which will keep appearing on top of the melted butter. The butter should have teensy bubbles appearing in it (simmering bubbles) during the process. Heat it up hotter if no little bubbles are appearing. You're done when no more of --MORE--(85%) wish to keep it in. Once cooled, it'll last for ages at room temp, or in the frige. In India, they call this stuff Ghee, which is just their word for clarified butter (my wife's from India). Clarified butter is even more nonstick than regular butter. It's also good in any recipe that calls for butter, i.e. bread or anything fried in butter. Good luck! Brian D. End of article 305 (of 328)--what next? [npq] Article 237 (59 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Stan England) Message-ID: <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> Date: 20 Aug 92 18:30:20 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Sender: news@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM Reply-To: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com Distribution: na Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 18 Diane asked if anyone knew of recipes for bread made from something other than wheat. I recall seeing an article in The Oregonian, (Portland paper) about a woman who has written a book about cooking without wheat. Seems she also has an allergy to wheat and that it is quite common. She became so frustrated at the difficulty in finding recipes, that she compiled her own cookbook of various wheat-free recipes she had found. I don't recall the authors name, but the title was something like "Wheat Free" Perhaps another newsreader might recall who this was and post a --MORE--(76%) a fairly recent publication. -- Stan England | Tektronix Customer Support Center thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com | BBS (503) 627-5658 Voice (503) 627-2400 Searching: England,Doss,Lang,Moody,Davies,Butler in AL,TN & GA End of article 237 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 238 (58 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: pamhall@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Pamela Hall) Message-ID: <1992Aug20.211958.28484@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 92 21:19:58 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM > Distribution: na Organization: Western Washington University Lines: 6 There's a book entitled "Wheat-free, milk-free, egg-free cooking" by Rita Greer. However, I certainly don't think all the recipes are geared to bread-making! Anyway, it's in paperback for $3.95 with an ISBN of: 0-7225-0832-8 and the publisher is Thorsons Publisher Pamela End of article 238 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 1128 of rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!uchinews!raistlin!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry10!dadams From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: FAQ.yogurt Message-ID: <1993May27.113401.2077@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 170 Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry10 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Date: 27 May 93 11:34:01 CDT I keep saying FAQ, when in reality, at least the last few of these have just been ideas for FAQs or notes or FAQs in the makings. Sorry, but enjoy. --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com -Sourdough and Ham- N0WWN Old Cowboys never die. They just smell that way! Subject: ZYMO: yogurt From: Beverly Erlebacher A few weeks ago: > In article <1992Jan30.130147.26652@hemlock.cray.com>, dadams@cherry10.cray.com (David Adams) writes: > > > > I would like to see some uses for plain yogurt. You can replace buttermilk with yogurt in any recipe. You can often replace sour cream with yogurt in a recipe, especially if the sour cream is more of a garnish than a structural component. If you aren't sure, replace the sour cream with a mixture of sour cream and yogurt and see how much difference it makes. I like cornbread made with yogurt. You can easily make a good salad dressing by mixing yogurt with finely chopped fresh herbs, notably dill and garlic. Mix it up in advance to let the flavours diffuse out of the herbs. This is super on sliced cucumbers. It grades into the East Indian dish called "raita" which is yogurt mixed with a bit of spice and an assortment of fresh veggies like chopped cucumber, scallions, tomatoes, etc. If you prefer a richer salad dressing, try half and half yogurt and (real) mayonnaise with finely crumbled blue cheese and garlic. You can make "lassi", an East Indian drink. Mix 1 part yogurt and 1 part ice water in the blender with some sugar or honey to taste. Very refreshing in hot weather. You can also add fruit or fruit juice, mango is traditional. It can also be made with salt instead of sweetening. A western alternative is the "smoothie", consisting of half and half yogurt and milk with banana and other fruit added, mixed up in the blender. Some people add coconut, raw egg, honey, etc. This is a lot more filling than a lassi! You can make frozen yogurt: mix yogurt, honey and fruit. Bananas are good for giving a good texture. I usually use bananas plus some other kind of fruit. Experiment with different ratios. It helps if the fruit is pre-frozen. I don't have proper equipment, so my frozen yogurt is usually full of ice crystals, alas. You can imitate the fruit yogurt in the store by mixing some canned fruit or jam into your homemade yogurt just before you eat it. > From: "Ruckstuhl, Keith E." > > For cheesecake-type yogourt, I have been told to suspend (an unknown quantit > y) in a cheesecloth or maybe even coffee filter with large surface area in the > fridge so that extra moisture will drip out into the bowl you so convieniently > placed beneath. After a few days, it should have lost enough moisture to be the > consistancy of cream cheese and can be used as a substitute for such. > Oh yeah- open up the cheesecloth bag every 8-12 hours and stir so no moistur > e is trapped in the middle away from the edges :) > Disclaimer- I tried this once but didn't layer my cheesecloth, so too much d > ripped out in the beginning and I gave up. > Kruck I make this stuff, it is easier than it sounds, and very good too. My method: Put a colander in a bowl. Take a clean cotton cloth such as a bandanna or handkerchief or a cloth napkin, wet it, squeeze it out, and line the colander with it. Pour in one or two quarts of yogurt. Carefully pick up the four corners of the cloth, bind them together with a strong rubber band, and suspend the cloth from a knob on a kitchen cabinet or other suitable projection. Whey will drain out in a stream at first, then a fast drip, then a slow drip... I pour the whey into one of the jars I used to make the yogurt so as to measure how much as drained out. (I leave the setup dripping into the jar on the countertop.) You want to reduce the volume by one-half to three quarters. I.e. if you start with 2 quarts of yogurt, you want to collect 1 to 1 1/2 quarts of whey. This takes several hours. I often leave it dripping into a jar on the countertop overnight. Most of the whey comes out in the first hour or two. I don't refrigerate it until it is finished draining. The part nearest the cloth will be drier than the center, but it will equilibrate. I try to sort of roll it off the cloth into a bowl, most of it will come away cleanly if you started with a wet cloth. This stuff is used in greek and mideastern cooking, where it is called "strained yogurt" or "labnah". It is not as sour as the original yogurt because much of the lactic acid goes into the whey. I like it spread thickly on whole-wheat toast with lotsa raspberry jam! You can make a good dip for veggies by mixing it (especially the wetter form) with one or more of: finely chopped fresh herbs, garlic, chives, fresh ground black pepper, etc. You can use the drier form for recipes that call for ricotta or dry cottage cheese (== farmer's cheese) or quark. It's a reasonable thing to put in lasagna. At this point you have the whey to deal with. I hate to throw it out because it has a lot of nutrition in it (the bright yellow colour is due to the B vitamin riboflavin). I've never had much luck using it as soup stock. It's a good thing to use when making bread, however. Some people like to drink it - you might want to sweeten it a bit first. If it is too acid for throwing into your soup or bread recipe, carefully stir in some baking soda, about 1/4 tsp at a time - it foams a lot. Before you resolve to pour it down the sink, pour it on your garden or compost instead. I sometimes feed the whey to my sourdough culture, first neutralizing it with some soda. It's more nutritious than water, at any rate! :-) If you are planning to make strained yogurt like this, it helps to use extra milk powder when you make the yogurt in the first place. I usually make yogurt from instant powdered milk by filling jars half full of milk powder before adding the water. This makes a nice thick creamy yogurt, but is essentially devoid of fat (a big win for me!). I can give a detailed description of how to make yogurt from powdered milk if people are interested. yrs, b. Editor: >I sometimes feed the whey to my sourdough culture, first neutralizing it >with some soda. It's more nutritious than water, at any rate! :-) I wonder if that would have a tendency to introduce a new strain of lactobacilli to your sourdough culture? OTOH maybe that is where you got your culture? >I can give a detailed description of how to make yogurt from powdered milk >if people are interested. I would like to see your technique. I also use powdered milk. I don't do anything fancy. I mix the milk a little thicker than normal. I use warm water. I let about a cup of old yogurt warm up to room temperature. I mix the milk in the yogurt and proof it for about 8 hours at 80 deg. F. It always comes out very nicely. Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From feldstei@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (ronald f. feldstein) Path:hemlock.cray.com!timbuk.cray.com!mmc.mmmg.com!mmm.serc.3m.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!silver.ucs.indiana.edu!feldstei Subject: how to make yogurt Message-ID: Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: silver.ucs.indiana.edu Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1992 03:33:33 GMT Lines: 14 Several comments have been made about the temperature required to make yogurt. In the book All About Yogurt (by Helferich and Westhoff), the point is made that while yogurt can be made at various temperatures, the best results require optimum heat levels. The recommendation is to first heat the milk to 176 F. to produce the firmest possible curd and best coagulation. (More or less heat produces a weaker curd.) Next, cool to the incubating temperature of 102-104 F. to encourage the growth of the less sour Streptococcus thermophilus, instead of Lactobacillus bulgaricus, which likes a higher temperature. The above comments apply to yogurt. Kefir, which I make more frequently, requires a temperature in the 70+F. range. Ronald Feldstein Article 24602 of rec.food.veg: Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!cc-server4.massey.ac.nz!RSharma Newsgroups: rec.food.veg Subject: YOGHURT - BASIC THEORY Message-ID: <1993Jun4.020713.549@massey.ac.nz> From: RSharma@massey.ac.nz (R. Sharma) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 93 02:07:13 GMT Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c Lines: 28 There seems to be lots of talk on yoghurt making. Here is some theory which might help in making a good yoghurt. First thing to have is milk with enough milk solids (to make a thick consistency). This can be achieved by adding skim milk powder to fresh milk or alternatively boiling off some of the water. Next step is to heat milk (if you have not already heated it in the previous step). The purpose of heating is to destroy all bacteria which are not desired (the idea is to make the environment suitable for the culture). Boiling milk for few minutes is a good idea (ideal temperature/time combination is 90-95C for 5-10 min). Heating milk for yoghurt making has another function; it helps in denaturing whey proteins in milk which combine with major milk protein `casein' and provide a thicker and richer consistency. Final step is to add starter or culture which will ferment lactose in milk to lactic acid. The production of the acid helps in lowering the pH of proteins in milk and results in formation of the gel known as yoghurt. The temperature at which the culture is added is important since the bacteria in the culture grow best at a specific temperature. For normal yoghurt culture 42C is appropriate. This temperature is then required to be maintained for 4-5 hours to attain the final product. Very higher temperature may destroy the culture whereas low temperature will slow their growth.