Subject: recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. Julie #include "std_disclaimer.h" Subject: Re: Barley flour sourdough >A high percentage of wheat flour is not a necessity. Many of the best >Russian breads, for example, are made with high percentages of rye flour, >up to 100%. According to a Russian bread manual I have, flour can be >categorized on the basis of its "gas-retentive capacity." On this basis, >both wheat and rye can retain gas. And while this is due to gluten in >the case of wheat, rye can retain gas thanks to the viscosity and surface >tension of the dough. One thing I've noticed when making pure or near-pure rye breads is that they require a different technique than wheat flour breads...and that they can work ok. They'll never get as light as wheat breads, but they will still get light enough to be a good bread, i.e. like pumpernickel or a bit lighter. Anyway, it always requires 2 tries for me to make a good 100% rye loaf...I don't make it often enough to be a good judge of the dough. The technique that I've found works well is: don't add more flour than is needed, typically this means the dough will still be pretty sticky when you've added enough flour, and use lots of patience in the kneading. I have found that even though the dough is sticky, if you keep kneading it long enough the stickiness will go away. You shouldn't quit kneading until the stickiness does go away. I find it helps sometimes to allow an 'intermediate rise' part way through the kneading process. For example, if I feel I've added enough flour and have been kneading for awhile and the stickiness doesn't seem to be diminishing very quickly, it usually helps to just lay a bit of wax paper over the dough and let it rest for about 20 to 30 minutes, then come back and resume kneading. Usually after that the stickiness seems to go away more quickly...or if it doesn't I assume it actually does need a bit more flour so I go ahead an add some more. 100% rye bread that I've made this way has turned out pretty good. Subject: Sourdough without gluten/for allergies I'm quite interested in both whole grain baking and in baking for those with allergies (due to the problems of a good friend) and have just got Ralph to raise some brown rice (3/4) and millet flour (1/4). For those who are interested, this is some of the information I've gathered, along with my bit of experience. Flours with gluten: wheat, spelt, barley, kamut, rye Flours without gluten: brown rice, millet, corn, soy Hidden problems with sourdough for those with allergies: - minute quantities of mold growth because of the length of time sourdoughs are proofed for - problems with the culture, (I've been assured that lactobacilli do not produce anything lactose-like, and there is the yeast too, of course and maybe other possibilities?) - we still haven't tested sourdough with the allergetic child in question, still more work to be done Raising non-gluten flours: - cannot make a kneaded bread with a non-gluten flour, there is no gluten to bring out by kneading - you must replace the gluten, which normally holds in the gas, with another binder(correct term?) - Laurel's Kitchen suggests Methylcellulose(sp?) as a binder - rice-millet works with Ralph to make good pancakes, used gelatin as a binder, result reminded me of eating a cracker, and I wasn't tempted to gorge like I usually do with pancakes. - try baking at a high temperature, then lower it to prevent gas from escaping - I wish I had a good gluten-free sourdough recipe to share, but I'm afraid I'm just starting to experiment. I have had pretty good luck using a gluten-free flour mix that I make at home, however. It consists of 2 parts rice flour (white or brown rice), 2/3 part potato starch flour, and 1/3 part tapioca flour. I got that "recipe" from The Gluten-free Gourmet by Bette Hagman. - >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: And a note. I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, but since my trip i have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe from people who might get even if i don't follow thru. >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >the air is clean, and the altitude is 7500 feet, and it gets >fairly warm during the daytime. Well....what were you gonna do with it, exactly? I mean, sourdough cornbread? Heck, try it, why not? For tortillas you don't use any kind of leaven, of course. What's left? Well, and anent a previous thread, what's left is pizza -- southwestern style. For this, I use about 1/3rd cornmeal in place of flour, and mix normally. It takes a bit longer to rise (this is with baker's yeast) but otherwise acts normally. (Toppings have to include green chilies, ideally Numex or Sandia, more normally Anaheims (sigh), and NO jalapenos. I may have to live in Texas, but I don't have to eat like it.)) This works well enough that it's definitely worth trying with sourdough. It is virtually certain to work SOMEWHAT, and will give you a good idea as to whether the cornmeal/sourdough mix is a flavor worth pursuing further. BTW, you might keep notes of your personal experiences and think about Subject: Sourdough Corn Bread Recipe Thought some of you 'ol Sourdough's would like my cornbread recipe. It's a super one. Doesn't keep well, but is reminescent of campfires and hearty soup suppers. SOURDOUGH CORN BREAD 1 cup starter 1 1/2 cup corn meal 1 1/2 cup evaporated milk 2 eggs, beaten Mix together and add: 1/4 cup melted butter 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 tsp. soda Pour batter into 10" greased frying pan (iron skillet is best). Bake for 25-30 minutes at 450*. (Does not require proofing). - >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. - Well, since David said that the ftp file did not have coffee in it ( and I didn't look at it before I posted that note about the archives) here is another recipe from _Bon Appetit_ October 1978. **Russian Black Bread** Makes 2 1-pound loaves -- 4 cups rye flour 2 cups whole bran cereal 2 envelopes dry yeast 2 tablespoons caraway seeds, crushed 2 teaspoons instant coffee 2 teaspoons salt 1 teaspoon sugar 1/2 teaspoon fennel seeds, crushed 2 1/2 cups water 1/4 cup (1/2 stick) butter 1/4 cup white vinegar 1/4 cup dark molasses 1 ounce (1 square) unsweetened chocolate 2 1/2 to 3 cups unbleached all purpose flour 1/2 cup water 1 teaspoon cornstarch Lightly grease large bowl and 2 8-inch layer cake pans. Set aside. Combine first 8 ingredients in mixing bowl. Combine 2 1/2 cups water, butter, vinegar, molasses, and chocolate in 2-quart saucepan. Place over medium heat and cook, stirring frequently, until chocolate is almost melted but mixture is still lukewarm. Turn into mixing bowl and begin beating. Gradually add flour, 1/2 cup at a time, to make a soft dough, and beat about 3 minutes. Turn dough onto lightly floured board. Cover with bowl and allow dough to rest 10 to 15 minutes. Knead dough until smooth and elastic, about 10 to 15 minutes, adding additional flour as needed. Place in greased bowl, turning to coat entire surface. Cover with plastic wrap and hot, damp towel and leave in warm place until doubled in volume. Punch dough down and turn onto lightly floured board. Shape into two balls and place in prepared pans. Cover with plastic wrap and leave in warm place until doubled. Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Bake breads 40 minutes. Combine water and cornstarch in saucepan and bring to boil over high heat; boil one minute (1 minute). Brush lightly over bread and return bread to oven when tapped. Remove from pans and allow to cool on racks. - There's a book entitled "Wheat-free, milk-free, egg-free cooking" by Rita Greer. However, I certainly don't think all the recipes are geared to bread-making! Anyway, it's in paperback for $3.95 with an ISBN of: 0-7225-0832-8 and the publisher is Thorsons Publisher Subject: German Sourdough Rye I promised you all a German bread recipe so this is the one my wife bakes for us. 1 c sourdough. Mix with 1 c warm water and 1 c rye flour and let stand 24 hours. Add another c warm water and c rye flour and let stand a 2d 24 hours. Add yet one more c warm water and rye flour and let stand for a final 24 hours. Take 1 cup out and put in the fridge for the next bread. Take the mix and add 1 Tbsp salt. If you want, add 1 Tbsp of a mix made by running fennel, caraway, and anis through a coffee grinder or similar grinder. Add enough white flour to make a stiff dough. Let stand till about double in size (2-3 hours). Spray cold oven with one of the hand spray pump misters. Use a long wooden skewer to poke 6 - 8 holes in the bread. Put in the cold oven and turn it on to 400F. Bake about 45 minutes until brown. It should sound hollow when you tap it. Let the bread cool overnight (at least 4 hours) before eating. This bread doesn't eat good right out of the oven. This will be a good, German farmers rye. Hearty but not too heavy. Back up there where you form the bread, you can put it on a cookie sheet. Form it into a long oval. My wife uses a German wicker bread form, but you can do it by hand. Good luck, good eating, and let me know if you enjoy it. (This is honest to goodness real German bread - no ersatz). - Subject: Re: German Sourdough Rye The fennel, caraway and anis bit was new to me. I'll try it. I usually take half of the rye flour for the first ansatz, stuff it into the oven (50 degrees centigrade) turn the oven off after some 2 minutes, and then approx 12 to 14 hrs. are sufficient. - 100% rye bread -------------- >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. - I just got a culture from a friend who brought it with her from Germany, and claims it has been in her family for "as long as her grandmother knows." RECIPE: German Graham/Oat Rye Bread -- a solid and substantial loaf, great with cheese or for sandwiches. 1 kg pumpernickel rye 1 l almost-hot water mix together, add starter, mix some more, let sit in a cozy spot overnight, 8-15 hrs. When it be stinking, SAVE A PIECE and then add 1 kg graham flour 0.5 kg oat flour 1 l almost-hot water (not all at once) 2-3 tsp salt (more or less to taste) 1 cup plain yoghurt (nonfat is fine) Mix well; use your hands. It should be thick mud. Add 2 handfulls of sunflower seeds and other goodies. Place in a big bowl (I use an 8 qt stock pot) and fill a sink with hot tap water. Place the bowl in the water and cover with a towel; let it rise here for 45 minutes until it doubles. (I really have great success with the sinkful of hot water trick: that way I have wash water ready! But don't let water get into the bowl.) Grease 3 or 4 bread pans, and _carefully_ scoop the risen dough into the pans. Don't punch it down! Moisten your hands and _gently_ smooth out the tops of the loaves; there's no need to press hard at all. Place in a warm oven to rise (uncovered) for 45 minutes, and then bake 1 hour on 350. Peek at it often after 50 minutes for that rich, brown crusty color. Don't take out too early; it will be too moist. Let cool for at least one hour. Meine Deutsche Nachbaren --- a very picky audience, worse than the French --- think it is "really so good!" Notice that this bread has zero added fat. Nevertheless it is moist and does not go stale. Ever, apparently! But the crust is for crust lovers and is a good workout on the old grinders. I'd love to hear some similarly detailed recipes in this group, especially different techniques. - >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, [I have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe]. - >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >the air is clean, and the altitude is 7500 feet, and it gets >fairly warm during the daytime. Well....what were you gonna do with it, exactly? I mean, sourdough cornbread? Heck, try it, why not? For tortillas you don't use any kind of leaven, of course. What's left? Well, and anent a previous thread, what's left is pizza -- southwestern style. For this, I use about 1/3rd cornmeal in place of flour, and mix normally. It takes a bit longer to rise (this is with baker's yeast) but otherwise acts normally. (Toppings have to include green chilies, ideally Numex or Sandia, more normally Anaheims (sigh), and NO jalapenos. I may have to live in Texas, but I don't have to eat like it.)) This works well enough that it's definitely worth trying with sourdough. It is virtually certain to work SOMEWHAT, and will give you a good idea as to whether the cornmeal/sourdough mix is a flavor worth pursuing further. BTW, you might keep notes of your personal experiences and think about Subject: Sourdough Corn Bread Recipe Thought some of you 'ol Sourdough's would like my cornbread recipe. It's a super one. Doesn't keep well, but is reminescent of campfires and hearty soup suppers. SOURDOUGH CORN BREAD 1 cup starter 1 1/2 cup corn meal 1 1/2 cup evaporated milk 2 eggs, beaten Mix together and add: 1/4 cup melted butter 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 tsp. soda Pour batter into 10" greased frying pan (iron skillet is best). Bake for 25-30 minutes at 450*. (Does not require proofing). Serve hot with lots of butter and honey. Yum. - >Finally on a more positive note. My brother was told in cooking >school, The San Francisco Culinary Academy, that 100% Rye bread was >only possible using sourdough levening. I have also read in Julia >Child's kitchen that it is the action of the yeast and not kneding, >as I had previously thought, that develops the gluten in flour. This >leads to the following questions: >1. Does anybody have a recipie for sourdough 100% rye bread or pumpernickel? Yes. It's from _The Art of Russian Cuisine_ by Anne Volokh. I've made a few changes to it because she uses the 'fake starter' method. That is, let a mixture of rye, water, and yeast sit out a few days, and then add more yeast later. I've modified it to use Borodinskii bread recipe I posted a while ago. This one uses all rye though) Moscow-Style Dark Rye Bread Starter: 1 tbsp active starter 2 1/2 cups warm water 2 cups dark rye flour Mix ingredients and let proof at a LOW temperature for about 12 hours (this low temperature is VERY important if you're using the russian culture as it can often smell like vomit when it's fed whole grains) Bread: All the starter 3 1/4 cup dark rye flour 1 tbsp shortening (oil is easier) 6 1/2 tbsp dark malt syrup 1/4 tsp corn syrup 1 tsp salt 1/2 tsp caraway (optional) like the monster that wants to eat the world's supply of rye flour. Knead at least 30 minutes if you're kneading vigorously. More if not. Shape into a slightly flattened ball. Be prepared. This won't rise a whole lot. Place a pan of water in the bottom of an oven heated to 425. Bake bread for 5 min then reduce heat to 375 and bake another 1 1/4 hours. Age bread 6 hours before eating. Subject: Sourdough without gluten/for allergies I'm quite interested in both whole grain baking and in baking for those with allergies (due to the problems of a good friend) and have just got Ralph to raise some brown rice (3/4) and millet flour (1/4). For those who are interested, this is some of the information I've gathered, along with my bit of experience. Flours with gluten: wheat, spelt, barley, kamut, rye Flours without gluten: brown rice, millet, corn, soy Hidden problems with sourdough for those with allergies: - minute quantities of mold growth because of the length of time sourdoughs are proofed for - problems with the culture, (I've been assured that lactobacilli do not produce anything lactose-like, and there is the yeast too, of course and maybe other possibilities?) - we still haven't tested sourdough with the allergetic child in question, still more work to be done Raising non-gluten flours: - cannot make a kneaded bread with a non-gluten flour, there is no gluten to bring out by kneading - you must replace the gluten, which normally holds in the gas, with another binder(correct term?) - Laurel's Kitchen suggests Methylcellulose(sp?) as a binder - rice-millet works with Ralph to make good pancakes, used gelatin as a binder, result reminded me of eating a cracker, and I wasn't tempted to gorge like I usually do with pancakes. - try baking at a high temperature, then lower it to prevent gas from escaping - I wish I had a good gluten-free sourdough recipe to share, but I'm afraid I'm just starting to experiment. I have had pretty good luck using a gluten-free flour mix that I make at home, however. It consists of 2 parts rice flour (white or brown rice), 2/3 part potato starch flour, and 1/3 part tapioca flour. I got that "recipe" from The Gluten-free Gourmet by Bette Hagman. That's an excellent book, by the way, and apparently she has another one out too, but I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive so I can't tell you much about it. Her first book, at least, does not discuss sourdough at all. I'm just starting to play with recipes, and I've been planning to post any successful combinations when I get them. I thought I'd post a possible flour combination in case some- one else has more time to experiment now than I do - it does give one possible place to start. - WHOLE-RYE BREAD Pour 2dl (this is all in metric) boiling water over 100g rye berries. In a separate bowl, combine 50g fresh yeast (I use about a tablespoon of dry), 2dl buttermilk and 100g rye. Cover both bowls and let stand at room temperature for a day. The next day, mix together the contents of both bowls and add, little by little, about 600g rye flour. Make sure the dough is a bit loose, because it will absorb additional water while rising. Let rise for an hour, knead out, and let rise an additional 30 min. (If you don't put it in a form, you will get something rather flat and oval.) Brush with water and bake at about 375 for 1-1/4 hours. - I just thought I would suggest another recipe for sourdough folks. If you ask me, I would appreciate even more of them. The FAQ is great, but I seek to expand my repertory of redipes. Here is an easy way to make sourdough bread. It is also the most successful way I've tried it. I use a very aggresive starter. I added organic rye flour to my San Francisco starter and though it's not really a San Francisco starter anymore, I am very pleased with the results. I first add 1/2 C. rye flour and 1/2 C warm water to my starter that I pulled fresh out of the fridge. I let this proof at room temperature for an amazing three hours. Seriously, that's all it takes! I then pour this mixture, now equalling about three cups (3/4 of a mason jar) into my intended mixing bowl. The bowl is stainless steel, for those interested, although sometimes I use my Bosch mixer which has a plastic bowl. I have noted no difference. Since I desire lots of bread, I add 3 C. flour to this mixture and 3 cups warm water, mix it up good and about 6 hours later, I have a good sponge. To this second proof, I add 1 tsp. salt and 1 Tblsp. honey for every cup of water present in the dough, (I assume a 1/1 ratio of water to dry ingredients in the sponge, which in this case is about 4 cups, I think). Of course, I have removed the 1 C. starter for the next time, added 1/2 C rye flour and 1/2 C water and let it sit for a couple hours before putting it back in the fridge. I add enough flour to make the dough barely handle-able. I must move the dough around in my hands or it will stick. It is still quite sticky at this point. I then knead it. With the machine, this takes about 5-10 minutes, by hand, about 1/2 hour. The dough is quite stretchy at this point, but also still quite sticky. Shaping a loaf is quite difficult, but I generally make a ball of dough (actually several) and place it in one of my LARGE iron dutch ovens. I let the dough rise for quite a while--about 4 to 6 hours. It will increase its size a whopping three or four times. I mean, this small softball sized dough ball increases to the size of a basketball, except that due to its fluid nature, it becomes more of a mound. I have found that I need a size 14 dutch oven to bake a loaf. The recipe described above makes three of them. I have experimented with spraying the loaves with water for a crunchy crust, but rather than making a crunchy crust, it made a leathery one. Now, I just leave it alone, and I get a cruncy chewy crust that is to live for. Trust the dough, is my advice. I use the number on the top of the dutch oven to determine the number of charcoal brickettes I use. A size 14 oven will take a total of 14 brickettes: 8 on the top and 6 on the bottom. About 45-50 minutes later, I have a large loaf of yummy bread. What is remarkable about this bread is that it stays soft and spongey for several days. It is really good bread! I have noticed that most sourdough bread (store-bought) loses its sponginess and becomes hard and dry. Not so this bread! I think it is due to the stickiness of the dough. It is difficult to shape, but well worth the somewhat flat basketball structure to me. Another fine recipe is that of sourdough pancakes. I proof my starter the same way. When the sponge is ready, I merely add 1 tsp. salt and 1 1/2 Tblsp. honey for each cup of water present, taste the batter to make sure it is twangy and the "right" flavor, and then add 1 C flour and 1 C water to this batter. I wait for about 1/2 hour and then start making them. By this time, the flour has fed the culture and bubbles have started to form in the batter, making very airy, light pancakes. I guess the key method for me is the 1 tsp. salt and 1 Tblsp. honey for every cup of water. The salt seems pretty fixed at this measurement, but the honey can be changed according to taste. I grew up tasting the batter and dough whenever my Mom made bread, so I can taste whether there is "enough" salt or honey. But that's all I ever add to my batter or dough--no soda, no butter, nothing but salt and honey.