Subject: Re: Stinging/poisonous insects
From: Michael Waldvogel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 08:32:45 -0400
Newsgroups: triangle.gardens

Centipedes and hellgrammites are very different critters.  
Hellgrammites are the immature stage of what are commonly called
dobsonflies.  They are aquatic and encounters with people are most 
likely going to be fisherman who handle them as bait.  The adults are 
usually grey-brown and are attracted to lights near lakes and ponds.

Centipedes are common everywhere; they look like millipedes, but 
only have one pair of legs on each body segment (millipedes have 
two pairs) and their legs are usually longer than those of millipedes
and they move much quicker.  They are predators, but bites are
rare.  You can see pictures of the two most common types of 
centipedes at:

http://www.ianr.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/images/centipedes/centipedes.htm

On the topic of spiders, a point of note:  with a few exceptions,
virtually all spiders are *venomous* and they use that venom to
subdue prey.  The widow spiders and recluse spiders are considered
*poisonous* because of their effect on people.  People that are
sensitive to arthropod bites/stings may react to an "ordinary"
spider bite to various degrees; the same way that reaction to
bee/wasp stings varies from minor pain (and major cussing!) to shock 
and hospitalization.  This doesn't mean you have to worry about every
spider you see, but if you are the type of person that tends to
sensitive to bites/stings, you just need to be extra cautious.
We have a lot of spiders sent to us for identification (under the
assumption that it's a brown recluse).  We probably get 1-2 recluses
every year out of the hundreds of spiders sent in.  If you have 
lots of spiders around your house, then you probably have lots of
other things on which they're feeding.  The spiders are just doing
you a favor.   :)

Also, there are several online pubs about biting/stinging pests 
(including ticks) available at:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/Insects/Urban/biting.htm

-- 
============================================================
Mike Waldvogel
Dept. of Entomology, NCSU-Box 7613, Raleigh, NC 27695-7613
Ph: (919) 515-8881     Fax: (919) 515-7746
Internet: [email-masked]    
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/DIRECTORY/waldvoge.html
============================================================

From: 'BurkeZoology' C Wood <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: sci.bio.entomology.misc
Subject: Re: Biggest Spider?
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 23:25:38 -0700
       On your last question:  there are few dangerously venomous spiders 
in the world, and most of these, such as the black widow group, are not 
gratuitously aggressive toward people.  The Australian "funnel web 
spider" _Atrax_ (not related to Northern Hemisphere funnel web builders) 
is reputed to be more aggressive than most and may be a candidate for 
your question.
    -----------Rod Crawford
              Curator of Arachnids, Burke Museum, University of Washington
              [email-masked]

From: [email-masked] (Burgess Howell)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned?
Date: 24 May 1994 17:22:21 GMT

I hate to come in so late on a thread (lousy newsfeed!), but there is
something I thought needed to be pointed out...

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Steve Daukas) writes:
|> Steve Daukas ([email-masked]) wrote:
|> 
|> : As far as "Balck Widow" bites/habitats, etc., I have seen some information
|> : posted that I am not so sure is accurate.  I will post a follow-up after I
|> : dig out my medical references on insects bites and the like.
|> 

[lots of good info deleted]

Obviously, the best thing to do about spider bites is to avoid being
bitten. :^)  But seriously, although there are many antivenins out there
for spider bites, you may not want to take the one for Black Widows if
you live in a high risk area (like down here in the Southeast).  The
reason is that Black Widow antivenin, unlike most antivenins, can be
administered only *once* in a lifetime.  A doctor will point this out to
you before administering the drug (unless, of course, you are
unconscious from a severe reaction).

BTW, most bites occur on the fingertips and toes (the little buggers
love to snuggle into pockets or the toes of your shoes).

Burgess F. Howell                                     Intergraph Corporation
Image Processing Applications                               Mail Stop IW17D1
Product Certification, Support, Training           Huntsville, Al 35894-0001
EMAIL: [email-masked]        VOICE: 205-730-1226        FAX: 205-730-9550

From: [email-masked] (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Black Widow Bites and Their Treatment
Date: 19 May 1994 22:35:42 GMT

I just checked a couple of basic emergency medicine texts for the treatment
of Black Widow spider bites.  Here is a brief version of what they say

1. The only first aid is the application of an ice-pack to the bite. This
is only to relieve the pain. The bite may not hurt at first, but within
15 minutes severe pain will appear and spread.

2. The bite may cause a large number of sypmtoms characteristic of neurotoxin
poisoning including--headache, vomiting, dizziness, profuse sweating, 
debilitating muscle cramps and spasms that may be confined to the bitten 
limb or may occur in any or all of the large muscle groups.  The victim may
alternate profuse salivation with extreme dryness of the mouth.  

3. Abdominal cramps and muscle spasms that produce pain comparable to
acute appendicitis are classic symptoms.

4. Hypertension is a serious problem that may require immediate 
treatment (diastolic pressure may exceed 130)

5. Treatment consists of injections of a specific Black Widow antivenin
and calcium gluconate for the muscle cramps.

6. Both sources agree that a healthy adult is unlikely to die from a Black
Widow bite, but people with high blood pressure, heart disease or breathing
problems could be in serious trouble if not treated quickly.

7  FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANT!!!  Black Widow bites are VERY dangerous
to children.  One source sums it up this way "A bite that may cause an
adult several hours of severe pain and 2-3 days of serious discomfort can
easily produce complete caridac decompensation and respiratory failure
in a child."

J. Del Col
-- 
Jeff Del Col   * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics.
A-B College    *  Be there."
Philippi, WV   * 
               * ----Charles Simic----

Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: [email-masked] (Steve Daukas)
Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 12:24:11 GMT

Steve Daukas ([email-masked]) wrote:

: As far as "Balck Widow" bites/habitats, etc., I have seen some information
: posted that I am not so sure is accurate.  I will post a follow-up after I
: dig out my medical references on insects bites and the like.

As promised - the follow-up gleaned from a few different texts.  Only the most
generally excepted prehospital treatments are presented below - some texts 
advocate other treatments (some of which I previosuly described), but I 
felt it better to stick with the basics as all texts stated that little 
can be done...

Habitat background:

The female black widow spider is characterized by a shiny black body, 
thin legs, and a crimson red marking on its abdomen, usually in the 
shape of an hourglass or two red triangles.  Do not be confused by 
appearances, however.  Of the five species in the US, only three are 
black, and not all have the characteristic red marking.

The female is one of the largest spiders in the US.  Males generally do 
not bite; females bite only when hungry, agitated, or protecting the egg 
sack.  Contrary to folklore, the black widow spider is not aggressive.  
In fact, many bites occur when a finger or hand enters the web and is 
mistaken as prey.

Black widow spiders, as is true for most spiders, are usually found in 
dry, secluded dimly lit areas.  The spider is known for its extremely 
strong, funnel-shaped web.
More than 80% of all bite victims are adult men.

Venom:

Black Widow Spider bites are among the leading cause of death from 
_spider_ bites in the US.  The venom - 14 times more toxic than 
rattlesnake venom, is a neurotoxin that causes little pronounced local 
reaction, bts results in pain and spasm in the large muscle groups 
(which are the abdomen, upper leg, buttocks, etc.) within thirty 
minutes to three hours.  Severe bites will affect the respiratory system 
and can result in respiratory failure, coma, and death.

Those at the highest risk for developing severe bites are children under 
16, the elderly over 60, and people with chronic illness and anyone with 
hypertension.

Signs and Symptoms (Sx):

The most common sign of a Black Widow Spider bite is high blood pressure.
The most common symptoms are flushing, sweating, and grimacing of the 
face within ten minutes to two hours.  Other Sx include:

	A pinprick sensation at the bite site, becomming a dull ache within
	30 to 40 minutes

	Pain and spasms in the shoulders, back, chest, and abdominal muscles
	within 30 minutes to 3 hours

	Rigid, boardlike abdomen

	Restlessness and anxiety
	
	Fever

	Rash

	Headache

	Nausea or vomiting

The symptoms generally last from 24 to 48 hours.  The headache and general
weakness, however, may last for several months.

Treatment (Tx):

Prehospital care is generally not effective in the long-term treatment of
the bite.  The goal is general wound care and transport.  General treatment 
consists of:

	Administer care for shock

	Apply a cold compress to the bite area - do not use ice!

	Do not allow scratching of the wound and do not clean the
	wound, simply cover it with a loose dressing. 

	Transport as quickly as possible

Black Widow anitvenoms are risky and are reserved for high risk patients.
Nevertheless, you should try to find the spider and bring it with you so
that positive identification can be made.  ID can be made even if the
spider is crushed.

If you don't know what kind of bite it is:

	Wash the wound thoroughly with soap and tepid water ONLY!  Using
	cold or hot water will aggrivate certain toxins and also dialate
	the capillary bed.

	Cover the wound with a loose dressing to discourage scratching

	Keep the affected area below the level of the heart and in a
	position of function.

	Don't use constriction bands unless you are sure its a snake bite
	from a poisonous snake (two distinct puncture wounds for land,
	or a series of scrape marks for the ocean) AND you are more than
	30 minutes from a hospital.  Constriction bands are not Tourniquets!

	Apply a cold compress to the wound - NEVER place ice on the wound.

Anyone developing Sx of an allergic reaction should be transported to an 
ER ASAP!
Those who are allergic and don't know (and won't know until bit/stung) can
actually die in under 10 minutes!  Don't screw around if any of the following
present themselves!

Sx of an allergic reaction include:

	Burning pain and itching at the bite site

	Itching on the palms of the hands and soles of the feet

	Itching on the neck and the groin

	General body swelling

	A nettlelike rash over the entire body

	Breathing difficulties

A severe reaction (Anaphylactic shock) includes:

	Weakness and/or fainting

	Nausea

	Shock

	Unconsciousness

	Death, usually in less than 30 minutes

Hope this was useful!

Regards,
Steve
--

Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From:  (S.L.Compton)
Subject: Black Widows...
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:27:06 GMT

Thanks so much to all who gave me some VERY valuable insight into these nasty
little creatures.  To sum up, over the past few weeks since my original 
posting, I have been on a personal extermination mission.  Some of the first
reponses told of how serious a bite can be a truly life-threatening (not 
to mention "the worst pain" or "pain so bad I'd rather died" responses 
from those who knew first-hand).

IDENTIFICATION:
Getting close enough to positively ID the Black Widow is not quite as hard
as it sounds.  You do not have to turn them over and find their bright red
hour-glass shaped mark on the underside of their abdomen.  Most of the 
time, they will sit up-side down in their webs.  Also, the female is 
slightly larger and has the brightest markings and color (or lack of - 
since they are black).  Their bodies are a jet-black which is a very 
shiny black with very little 'fur' or hair giving a slick/satin 
appearance.  The males tend to be not quite as intensely colored.  
These spiders are recognizeable also by their body shape.  They
have a very small head and upper 'torso' region, followed by a 
well-rounded (pea to marble sized) anterior.

Habitat also helps to identify, but most spiders to tend to like the same
type of hang outs.  A funnel shaped web with thick webbing is common to the
widows, but also of turantulas, wolf and other 'garden' variety spiders.  
The best indications of a Black Widow's web is the style, the location 
(dark, dank, slightly moist) and maintained.  The widows will quickly 
clean out their webs and tend to anything which may prevent catching more 
food.  A tear, foreign objects (grass, twigs, leaves) may stay in the web 
for a day or two, and sometimes hide the spider.  These arachnids also 
like to be able to retreat, as well.  Their funnel shaped web will 
usually flow back into a recess, a corner or a covered/hidden area.  In 
general, watch from a distance and look at night to see if you can 
positively add up the above signs.

NEUTRALIZATION:
I have found several Ortho products which are intented for household/garden
use which are effective on a large variety of insects - including the Black
Widow. The rock retaining walls in my garden harbor mice, garter snakes 
and these lovely ladies.  The webs of the spiders are obvious in their 
funnel shape and thick webbing.  At nightime with a flashlight and the 
formula II Ortho House and Garden Insect spray, I have sprayed the webs 
several times, every other night. Chemicals shuch as Diaznon and 
Malthion are recommended for outdoor use, but my local garden store 
suggested the formula II because of its quick dissipation and is not 
highly toxic to animal life (i.e. me, pets, children).  Ortho formula III
insect and the stronger chemicals are NOT to be used around any garden
areas where they may come in contact with food products.  By finding the 
spiders and directly spraying them with the formula II, most say there is 
a very good success rate - this seems true as the webs have been in a 
state of disrepair for several days and I have not seen any spiders in 
my hunting.

EXTERMINATION:
I also agree that there is a real concern in actively hunting these beasts.
The only reason I undertook this task myself was that most exterminators I
talked to were quite honest in saying that the Ortho formula II would be 
the same or close to what they would use for the garden areas.  They did 
also offer to do a thorough inspection in and around the house for a 
resonable fee (and also provide a full estimate).  I have a relatively 
new home and have seen no signs of them around the house (lack of 
grown-up shrubs & habbitat) nor inside the house.  YET...
  __
 /  \          ____  _____  ______         | | |     Be  afraid,
/    \_       |     |      |        |  /   | | |         Be VERY afraid;
\    /_\0,    |___  |____  |_____   | /    | | |
 \__/ /|\\    |     |      |        |/ \             These 'guys' deserve
your
              |____ |_____ |______  |   \  | | |         full respect...

Date: Sat, 21 May 94 20:08 MDT
From: [email-masked]
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Black Widows...

Hello.  I can help you a bit with the brown recluse question, and with 
the wasp sting question.
Brown recluse spiders are also known as fiddler spiders.  They look like 
fat daddy-longlegs, with a distinctive violin shape on their heads.  
Their bite is horrifying:  the caustic venom eats away the flesh and if 
untreated, its possible for it to eat to the bone.  I had seen such a 
bite on the forearm of a man -- it was the diameter of a quarter and had 
exposed the muscle immediately overlying the ulna.  It was 90 minutes 
old. 
Fortunately, the buggers are pretty mellow.  They mosey along and are 
thus easy to smash, and they usually bite only if provoked.  They like 
coolish dampish places like garages and sheds, and they seem to like each 
other's company, so usually where you find one, there are several more 
nearby.  The only treatment I know of is to get the person to the 
emergency ward right away, as they usually have a neutralizing 
anti-toxin.  If you hear of any at-home first aid for this spider's bite, 
please email it to me.
For wasp and bee stings, etc, my husband has found the "old wives tale" 
of putting a cut onion on the wound to be true.  Reading several books on 
the matter, I think I know why.  Onion releases sulfer, which is 
antiseptic and anodyne, thus calming the inflammation and pain.  It also 
seems to slow the toxin.  For bee stings, the usual advice is to scrape 
away the stinger and venom sac with a credit card, never fingers or 
tweezers, since the sac can be easily squeezed.  For wasp, hornet and 
yellowjacket stings all you can do is try to ease the pain.  Aloe vera 
gel seems to help here also. 
With all bees, once you get stung, get the hell out of there!  A stinging 
bee, wasp, etc puts out a scent that calls the rest of the hive to war.  
Since wasps, yellowjackets and hornets have much vicious natures than 
honey bees (and much more dangerous venom), getting out of town is even 
more important. 
Keeping wasps, yellowjackets and hornets away from picnics and such is 
relatively easy once you understand that they're carnivorous.  Set a 
piece of meat or fish away from the picnic site for them and they'll 
generally converge on that and leave you alone.   In terms of temper, 
honeybees require a fair bit of provocation to sting, wasps somewhat 
less, yellowjackets get irate if you swat at them, and I've found that 
the less said about hornets, the better ;)  Bumble bee workers don't have 
stingers (and aren't generally inclined to use them anyways), but the 
drones do and they resemble wasps both in manner and appearance.
Never mess with queens of any kind :)
The only colours that most bees-etc seem to disdain are white and beige.  
Anything else might grab attention and no one seems to be able to say for 
sure which colours attract the most.  Perfumes attract bees-etc, but they 
dont seem to like coriander (Tom's of Maine deodorant gets another 
star)   I'm not certain how they feel about lavender or cedar, but at 
least they keep mosquitos away.
Not much help, Im afraid, but thats what I know about them.. I haven't 
been stung.
Oh, and a note about brown widows.  They look like small brown black 
widows with an indistinct hourglass.  Their bites are less dangerous, but 
no less painful, and they like the same sort of habitat as the black 
widows.  I've also heard that there are white widows, particularly in the 
Kelowna area and Okanagan valley.  They look exactly like black widows, 
being silvery white, and their bite is often fatal to the adult human. 
Never tell an arachnophobe "Its just a spider, it cant hurt you" ;)
-==- Ennien
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Ennein & Robin Ashbrook               |                             |
| Internet: [email-masked]   |   " To each, their own. "   |
| UUCP: calgary!debug!galatia.9         |                             |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From [email-masked] Mon May 23 10:14:28 1994
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 09:23:00 -0400 
From: "david (d.c.) cromwell" <[email-masked]>

Newsgroups: sci.med
From: [email-masked] (Dale Clark)
Subject: Re: Please send me the brown recluse bite notes
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:58:02 GMT
Lines: 259

I tried to mail this to you, but as it has been doing to everyone
these days - it bounced back.  So, here is the original posting -
I just happened to have it on file.

Dale

BROWN RECLUSE - THE ENTIRE STORY
--------------------------------

[Memorial Day Weekend] Friday, May 28th, 1993.  An amusing side to this
story is the fact that the reason I ever went into the basement closet
was to find a book to use as reference material for an article I was going
to post to another group on this network!  Well, anyway, I knew it had to
be in a box in a closet under the stairs we use for storage.  There
are also a bunch of old coats and clothes hanging on a rack.  The boxes
I was going through were underneath this rack of clothes and I
moved them with my body as I bent over to look for this book.  I can't
remember, but I either had no shirt on at all, or a short sleaved
shirt.  It was warm here in Utah that weekend.  We live in Bountiful,
Utah, approximately 15 miles north of Salt Lake City, along the
mountainside called the 'east bench.'  Prior to this time, I had
never heard of the brown recluse in my life.  Growing up, we were only
told of the black widow.  You see them around once in a while, but
generally they just stay in a corner by themself and you only rarely
hear of someone getting bit.  Anyway, I had got in the closet about
8-9PM.  

Saturday, May 29th, 1993, 11:32 AM (Sounds like Dragnet don't it?) I
had finished mowing the lawn and came in and took my shirt off to cool
down. I was sitting in front of the TV and I was just rubbing my hands
along my arms when I felt puffy skin on my right arm, near the shoulder.
I looked and saw an area about the size of a quarter that appeared as
though it was burned!  It shocked me because I couldn't figure out what
could have happened.  My immediate thought was that I did it just
minutes before while I was outside, but I couldn't possibly see how.
The skin was wrinkled and thin.  It appeared to have 'pus' under it
so I grabbed a kleenex and just hardly touched it.  The skin came away
easily and a yellowish-brown fluid discharged.  I'd never seen anything
like this.  At this point it looked harmless, like a blister or
floor-burn.  The area left after the skin came off was just light
red or pink and seemed as though it would heal-up and be gone in
a day or so.  I didn't put anything on it or even give it much
thought the rest of the day.  By 8PM the area had increased
to about the size of a half-dollar and looked bad.  I had taken a 
shower and was getting ready to go out when I looked at it.  It was
weaping clear, light-yellow fluid and the skin had strange spots and
was appearing to turn to a dark red color.  I showed it to my Dad and
he thought 'it looks like impetigo.'  My mother didn't think so, she
said then that 'it looks like you've been bit by something.'  I
decided to put 'Gentian Violet' on it. 
   (Now, this was a mistake in the fact that the dark violet 
    color hinders diagnosis because color is an important 
    part of identifying problems on the skin.  Doing this
    did cause a slight delay in diagnosis.  However, of all 
    the things I tried, viz., Hydrogen Peroxide, Burn Cream, 
    Hydrocortisone, and Neomycin, it was the Gentian Violet 
    that seemed to work the best.  If I were bitten again, 
    and knew I was bitten, I would use Gentian Violet for at 
    least the first 6-7 days.  Anyway, back to the story...)

Sunday, May 30th, 1993, 7:45 AM.  Get out of bed and --- YEECH!
What have I got on my arm?  It was weaping something fearce and
there were 3 spots on the sheets where it had weaped yellow fluid
but they were also stained blue from the damn Gentian Violet which
drained out along with the fluid.  Now, I had a thin piece of gauze
taped over the wound, but it had drained to the point that it had
become saturated and oozed through to the sheets.  That's how much
it was leaking.  Gross.  I shower and before I had put more stuff
on it that day I noticed that our neighbor, a Pediatrician, was
walking by the house.  As I picked-up the morning paper I asked
him to take a quick look at the ulcer on my arm to see if he had
any idea what it was.  (I'm sure doctor's are constantly asked about
things by neighbors, but no more so I guess than I'm asked about
computers).  He looked at it and said, "You need to have this looked
at, today if you can."  Today?  It's Sunday on Memorial Day Weekend -
What's the sense of urgency?  "That might be a brown recluse bite and
I would really have it seen today." he said, and added, "Don't put
any more of that violet crap on it."  It kind of shook me up that
he had a sense of 'do it now' to his voice.  At 11 AM I went to
the Bountiful "Instacare" (An 'always open' chain of medical
clinics in the Salt Lake City area).  The doctor said she was
sending me to Salt Lake City LDS Hospital Emergency room right
away.  That she felt it was indeed a spider bite, but needed it
confirmed and the clinic couldn't handle 'surgery' there if it
was required.  This really scared me to death.  Especially when
she told me about some people needing 'amputation' in extreme
cases, etc.  Went to ER and the doc there wasn't sure because of
the 'violet shit' I put on it.  (Those are the words he used).
So, I got a painful shot of antibiotics in the rear.  (Don't
know what or how much unfortunately.  I usually ask about everything
I'm getting but in this one case I forgot).  I was started on
Prednisone (20mg - 4/day for 4 days, 3/day for 4 days, 2/day for
4 days, then 1/day for 4 days), and basically told to see my
personal physician on Tuesday.  Topically, I was to put bacitracin
on twice daily when I changed the 2 x 2 guaze. 

Monday, May 31st, pain begins.  I have diarrhea, stomach cramps,
hot/cold flashes but didn't even once consider it was in any way
related to my possible spider bite.  I went to the store and bought
several cans of Ortho Indoor Insecticide, making sure that the
brown recluse was listed on the back of the can.  Apparently, lindane
is a necessary ingredient to kill them.  I went to the basement and
sprayed like crazy.  We have no children nor pets so I really went
wild.  No one sleeps down there either.  I had been asked the previous
day by the doctors if I had been in any attics or dark closets,etc.
At first I had said no.  It didn't even hit me until sometime later
when I remembered going into the closet for that book.  That was the
only 'dark unfrequented' room I had been in in the last several days.
I gave the closet under the stairs a double-dose.  Then I closed
the doors to all of the basement rooms and made sure the windows were
shut.  I left it that way for hours, then went it and sprayed again.
I wasn't messing around.

Tuesday, Jun 1st, I see my doctor in the morning.  I was lucky to get
in - there had just been a cancelation and apparently he was booked
solid from the long weekend.  By now, most of the violet stain had
disappeared.  It was the size of a dollar and looked terrible.  I hurt
terribly and didn't feel well.  He didn't know what it was but wanted
me to see a dermatologist in the same building.  He set up the
appointment himself as he didn't want me waiting more than a day at
most to get in to someone.  The appt. was for Wednesday.  He told
me to stop putting ANYTHING on it.  Just leave it completely alone
except for the guaze to soak up the drainage.  He wanted the dermatologist
to be able to see it without it having been affected by anything.
At this point, the pain wasn't bad enough that I needed anything and
I didn't even ask.  When I got home that night, my Dad and I carefully
removed everything from the closet under the stairs.  We found 2 dead
spiders.  One was a small common black house spider, the other was
strange.  We had never quite seen a spider like this in Utah.  It's
legs were smooth and light brown.  It's body was definitely brown
and the fangs on its head were huge.  On the cephalothorax was a
little brown 'line' that on inspection with a magnifying glass
looked like a small upsidedown violin.  Bingo.  The violin spider.
It was so damn tiny!  "Oh, come on.", my Dad said, "How could this
little thing do that to your arm?"  I doubted that it did also.
My Dad thought about it, then said, "Hmmmm.  It's so small it makes
me wonder if there isn't others around here.  Maybe this is just a
baby one."  The entire breadth of it was no more than the size of
a nickel.  

Wednesday, June 2nd, the dermatologist just happened to be from
North Carolina and had treated 2 bites in the past.  As soon as she
removed the gauze she said, "Yup.  Brown recluse."  The wound was
disgusting.  It was huge and had a light brown/clear center with
a dark/purpleish-red ring around it, then another thin ring of red
skin.  She called it a 'bulls-eye' and it did in fact resemble the
eye of a bull.  Pain was getting bad.  I didn't like to do anything
that put any torsion on the skin of my right arm at all.  Even having
a shirt on which rubbed the gauze hurt.  When you put your hand lightly
over the gauze you could feel 'warmth' from the wound - it was hot.
Well, she wanted me to change the bandage twice daily and apply
bacitracin again.  Whenever I applied it, the wound would 'bubble'
up with little pustules and drain crud out of it.  This was not
a fun wound.  I showed the doctor the spider in the bottle and she
said, "Well, I'm almost 100% sure that's was bit you.  From your
description of what happened, the fact you found a brown recluse,
and the bull's eye wound, I just feel sure about it."  She recommended
a professional spraying and agreed that the fact that it was small
may indicate there may be more.  We called Orkin that day.  I
went back to my personal internal medicine physician and got a
prescription for Mepergan Fortis (Demerol for pain, Phenegran
ingredient for the frustrating itching).

I saw the dermatologist and my regular physician each Wednesday for
the next 3 weeks.  I watched with dismay as the wound increased
in size and swelling began in my right arm.  After about 2 weeks,
it began to 'separate' into 2 circles.  At first they were hooked
together like a figure eight (8), but gradually they separated into
2 distinct circles (OO) about the size of a half-dollar each.
Pain would wax and wain.  The wound looked awful, after 2 1/2
weeks it turned a honey-brown color and looked disgusting. The
purple part came off and I had 2 nice 'holes' in my arm, the pieces
that came off were almost 'corroded' looking, not like a scab or
skin or anything else, but like tissue that was destroyed.  It was
kind of scary.  Each day you think, "This has got to be as bad as
it's going to get, I'll be improving soon."  But it goes on and on.
And you can't hardly believe that it's expanding.  I took good care
of the wound and changed the bandages and took my medication
religiously.  Finally, the color of it concerned the dematologist.
The honey/color suggested to her that staph might be in it.
On Tuesday, June 22nd, she had me go in for a biopsy and possible
surgery.  Here's the posting I made to the news when I returned to
work 2 days later:

GAK!  I'm back!

Well, for those interested, here's what happened...

Biopsy confirmed presence of staph infection and deep areas of
necrosis so they laid-on surgery for 11:30 AM.

Went in and stripped.  Was given Valsed (not sure how much) and
150 mg Demerol.  20 minutes later I felt wonderful and scared to death.
They put iodine on the arm (felt cold), then told me the numbing
injection would be painful.  Boy they weren't kidding.  One nurse
actually held me down on the table with both hands on my chest. 
Apparently it is an involuntary reaction to 'jump' and I did.
The doc said, "OK you're going to feel the needle." And I certainly
did, but it didn't hurt anything like the Xylocaine (or was it
Marcaine?) going in.  Good Grief that hurt like nobody's business.

Well after just a few seconds the pain went away.  They used a
'burning needle' to cut away and I remember seeing smoke drift
up towards the ceiling.  I was starting to enter la-la land and
my memory gets foggy here.  I do remember a LOT of honey-colored
crap being taken out.  I felt them 'tugging' and heard 'noises'
but felt nothing.  Anyway, the doc told my Dad that he was
'suprised' at how much tissue was involved and just 'mascerated.'
Dad said I had a 'hole' in my arm that was pretty deep. Approximately
6-inches long roughly the shape of a banana or diamond.  It
was sewn up and it <HURTS>.  I don't even use my arm to try
to open a door as it invokes pain.  I drive with my left hand.
To sit here and use the computer - I push the keyboard to the
back of the desk and rest my arms on the desk so that no
muscles are needed to support my arm.

The docs say, "Now, if we were to remove tissue from your left
arm it would heal nicely.  But this area here in your right arm
is *not normal tissue* and it also has staph in it.  Therefore,
I'm on Cephalexin (250mg 4/day), Prednisone again (same dosage
regimen as before), Dapsone (which required blood tests and
crap), and my old friend that has helped me combat the pain:
Mepergan Fortis.

Ladies and Gentlemen, if you have these things in your area I
implore you to call Orkin.  We spent $125 for inside and outside
spraying by them and they found 2 more down behind a deep freezer
we have in a darkened room not frequented.  I don't know how much
all of this is going to cost me but I'm sure it won't be cheap.
The surgery I had will probably reach $2000.00.

Well, Today is June 28, 1993, 32 days since I was bitten and
6 days after surgery.  Finally, finally on Sunday I could tell I
was not only feeling better, but my arm is getting better.  I can
see absolute signs of healing going on.  I'm sure now, that this
thing will be healed up soon.  I'll have a scar, but it will be
a long thin one, instead of 2 huge round ones.  The skins is
red around the scar and there is a kind of scab there but I'm
not worried about it anymore.  I'm getting good use now out of my
arm (it doesn't hurt nearly as bad - I can even open a door now)
and I'm well on my way to recovery. I've only taken 1 pain pill
all day and I wonder if I'll need one tonight.  Thanks for all
of your concern and thoughtful letters.  If anything else
happens - except for normal healing - I'll let you know!

Dale W. Clark

--      O
  ____ /|\o_______________________________________________________^
 /     / \ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////^/ 7-10
|`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````| split
| Dale W. Clark                                    (801) 594-4982 | again!
| [email-masked]                   UNISYS Corporation |
|_________________________________________________________________|

From [email-masked] Thu Jun 16 22:33:43 EDT 1994
From: <[email-masked]> (The honey bunny)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: spiders,
Date: 15 Jun 1994 16:32:47 GMT

>I found a big black widow spider near the house this weekend, 
>which I prompty had my partner kill.  
>If I've found one, does that mean there are probebly more?

>>    She was probably guarding an eggsack. Did you look for one?

>What does one do for a bite?

    You are going to be soooooo sorry for about 3 days. BW's
    poison is a neuro-toxin and gets into the muscles. You are
    going to be sore. Really sore. If you are healthy you won't
    die, but for 3 days you're gonna wish you did!  :-) 

    To get fully accurate information, call your local hospital
    or Poison Control Center, let them know THIS IS *>NOT<* I REPEAT
    *>NOT<* AN EMERGENCY, and talk to one of the people there.

    If you have any other poisonous creatures in your area you might
    ask for "what to do" if you engage one of them.

[story mode ON]

When I moved to Valley Center (up in the mountains of San Diego) I
called Poison Control to talk about rattle snakes and BWs and Tarantulas.
While talking about the rattlers the PC guy told me that 90% of all
rattle snake bites (they get) are on the hand, and 100% of the victims
have a "high" blood-alcohol content. Seems that alot of people see
these things and say "wow - what a great BELT that would make!"   :-) 

They strike with lightening speed. A mongoose can take on a Cobra,
but wouldn't stand a chance against a rattler.

--
Tony J. Podrasky    I have a fox fur coat: It's beautiful! -  It's warm, it's 
[email-masked]    soft,  it's cuddly.  If you stroke it  -  it gets playful
San Diego , Ca      and nips at you. You see, it's being worn by the original
QSL? QRU? QRZ?      owner - which is the way it should be. - tony j. podrasky

From [email-masked] Thu Jun 16 22:36:21 EDT 1994
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: [email-masked] (kevin wilhite)
Subject: Re: spiders,
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 17:28:58 GMT

>I found a big black widow spider near the house this weekend, 
>which I prompty had my partner kill.  

Good for you. Kill everyone of the little blighters you see.

>Does anyone know:

>If I've found one, does that mean there are probebly more?

Most likely.

>What does one do for a bite?

The results of a personal experience with a particular type of spider 
has prompted me to kill all but 2 or 3 varieties- REGARDLESS of how
"beneficial" they are supposed to be.
I was bitten on the inside of my knee by a brown recluse aka fiddleback.
The fiddleback has 6 toxins to the black widow's 1.  I was bitten
about 6:30 in the morning but thought little of it.  By 9am there was
a purplish bruise the size of a goose egg around the bite.
That night I could nnot get to sleep as the toxin cut off blood flow to the 
area of the bite.  The result of the ordeal was 3 surgeries, severe pain,
and a cancelled trip to OZ.  There is a chunk the size of a hamburger 
missing from my leg now.

Wendy, kill all the spiders you see in and around your house. Toxic
or not the little bastards deserve it.

-- 
The advance of civilization is nothing
but an exercise in limiting privacy.
                              -Pelorat

From [email-masked] Thu Jun 16 22:38:52 EDT 1994
From: [email-masked] (Anna Haynes)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: spiders
Date: 16 Jun 1994 00:48:52 GMT

In article [email-masked], [email-masked] (Scott Currier) 
writes: (of black widows)

> They are in fact very shy spiders, and do eat lots of other
> pests...
 
Alas, some are extroverts.  Remember the Gary Larson "web across the kiddie
slide" comic captioned "If we pull this off, we'll eat like kings!"?  I had a
megalomaniac widow ( small, either juvenile or male--though I guess adult males
are fairly rare...) spin a web across the front doorway one night, a couple of 
years ago.  Fortunately the part of the web I walked through was not the part 
he was sitting on.

Anna K. Haynes  The Grass Valley Group, Inc. Grass Valley, CA  (916) 478-3691
   <[email-masked]>  

From [email-masked] Wed Jun 22 00:07:54 EDT 1994
From: [email-masked]
Newsgroups: misc.rural,sci.med
Subject: Re: spiders,
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 94 13:57:58 EDT
Organization: The University of Kentucky

In article <[email-masked]>
<[email-masked]> (The honey bunny) writes:
 
>Can anyone offer up explanations to my questions [below]?

>  hi dale;
>  I read the account of your tangle with a brown recluse.
>  I don't doubt you, but I find it unbelievable that one little
>  bite continues to attack "you" for days afterwards. I mean,
>  I got bit by a red ant. It stung for quite a while, and by
>  night time was damn irritating. A six-pack of Coors refocused
>  my mind, and the next morning it was all forgotten about.
>
>  Do you know what is in the toxin that allows it to continuously
>  attack your body?
>
>  Why isn't it "neutralized" in a day or two?
 
I'm not sure why it is so unbelieveable that the effects of a bite by the most
dangerous spider in North America could last more than a couple of days...
The venom secreted by the Brown Recluse (Loxosceles reclusa) contains a number
of toxic peptides that act as enzymes to degrade the tissue it comes into
contact with, often resulting in necrosis locally and occasionally in more seve
re systemic effects. It is capable of inducing death, usually in children, and
kills a few people in the US each year. Gee, I can't remember the last time I
heard of a red ant causing such problems. Maybe for a Brown Recluse, a CASE of
Coors will do the trick...
 
JD VanHoose

From [email-masked] Wed Dec  7 19:36:14 EST 1994
From: [email-masked] (Melvin McDowell)
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Subject: Need an expert on Brown Recluse Spider
Date: 2 Dec 1994 04:10:05 GMT
Organization: DSC/Voicenet - BBS/Unix Shells/SLIP/NEWS - (215)443-7390

	I am looking for an expert for use in litigation. The case 
concerns allegations that a brown recluse spider in a box of bananas bit 
someone causing injury.  Any information concerning the habitat, 
behavior, toxcity, etc. of the brown recluse spider would be appreciated.

					Melvin C. McDowell, Esq.
					[email-masked]

From [email-masked] Wed Dec  7 19:36:48 EST 1994
From: [email-masked] (Pollinator)
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Subject: Re: Need an expert on Brown Recluse Spider
Date: 5 Dec 1994 00:20:11 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Melvin McDowell) writes:

>I am looking for an expert for use in litigation. 
[text deleted]

   I am no expert, but I do see them here in South Carolina now and then;
not as often as black widow spiders, though. They like to keep in hidden,
out of the way places, and banana boxes would be ideal habitat. How could
anyone prove however, where the spider came from, whether it was imported
with the bananas, or entered afterwards, etc.  Seems to me to be a kind of
"act of God," that you couldn't hold against anyone.
   They are extremely toxic, and I fear them more than snakes. A neighbor
was bitten by one in a box, in a warehouse. He spent a month in the
hospital, and came within a hair of losing his arm.   Nine months later
there was still swelling and an open, draining, hole at the site of the
bite.
   I am a commercial beekeeper, and I find them in empty bee boxes,
though, as I said, the less toxic black widow is far more common. 
Sometimes I see three or four black widows in a day.  I've seen only a
dozen or so brown recluse in the past ten years.

[email-masked]
Eastern Pollinator Newsletter, PO Box 1215, Hemingway, SC  29554  -Dave
Green, Editor

From [email-masked] Wed Dec  7 19:37:22 EST 1994
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Reply-To: [email-masked] (Joseph M. Sarti)
From: [email-masked] (Joseph M. Sarti)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 1994 02:29:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Need an expert on Brown Recluse Spider

In article <[email-masked]>, Pollinator 
([email-masked]) writes:
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
>(Melvin McDowell) writes:

>>I am looking for an expert for use in litigation. [text deleted] 

>   They are extremely toxic, and I fear them more than snakes. A neighbor
[text deleted]
>[email-masked]

My father was bitten on the instep by one in Tampa. He spent 3 
weeks in the hospital, nearly died, almost lost his foot and had
the same type of draining wound as Pollinator's friend. He concurs
that they are the nastiest of the nasties.

Joe 

---

---

From [email-masked] Sat Dec 17 01:14:12 EST 1994
Article: 2447 of sci.agriculture
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!serval.net.wsu.edu!wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu!MYHR
E
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Need an expert on Brown Recluse Spider
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked] (News)
Organization: Washington State University
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 01:55:26 GMT
Lines: 60

>
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
>(Melvin McDowell) writes:
>
>        >I am looking for an expert for use in litigation. The case
>concerns allegations that a brown recluse spider in a box of bananas bit
>someone causing injury.  Any information concerning the habitat,
>behavior, toxcity, etc. of the brown recluse spider would be appreciated.
>
 
I am not a recluse person, but depending on what REALLY bit the person, I
can help somewhat.
 
1. Most people think the recluse exists were IT DOES NOT.  Here in the
Pacific Northwest, I always hear "Yeah I just saw one."  NO THEY DID NOT!
 
2. I have constructed a flyer for our local grocery stores re toxic spiders
that have been coming in a lot more frequently from Ecuador:  Giant crab
spiders, and wandering spider - I have 2 specimens from our local stores
that are from banana boxes (from Ecuador).  They are genus Phoneutria,
species unknown.  Note that Phoneutria nigriventor is THE MOST TOXIC
beastie in S. America.   This banana spider problem has increased a lot
 the past couple of years.
 
3. I work on the aggressive house spider, Tegenaria agrestis. It's bites
cause necrotic lesions similar to the recluse.  Distribution is PNW, MT, UT.
You may have seen an article in Good Housekeeping/Reader's Digest last yr.
It said "Recluse bit the lady"  Well, after the article came out there was
mass panic and people sending in spiders for ID.  Guess what...many T. agrestis
Not a single recluse.
 
4. Unless the spider who did the biting is acutally caught in the act, you'll
have a tough case.  Most people do not know what bit them-don't even feel the
bites or see the spider.  Then,"Oh, I have a big hole in my leg...."
 
Didn't catch the originator of this message, but can send a few snail-mail
items if he/she wants.  I have done no expert witnessing, but my late
employer did so for a couple of T. agrestis lawsuits.
#################################################################
LIZ MYHRE                    ##ENTOMOLOGIST/TECHNICIAN LOOKING ##
DEPT ENTOMOLOGY              ##FOR JOB, ESP. PACIFIC NORTHWEST ##
WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY  ##EXPERIENCE: URBAN ENTOMOLOGY,   ##
PULLMAN, WA  99164-6382      ##CHEMICAL TESTING, CARPENTER ANTS##
PHONE: 509-335-3681          ##YELLOWJACKETS, TOXIC SPIDERS    ##
FAX: 509-335-1009            ##SCIENTIFIC ILLUSTRATION, SLIDE  ##
                             ##GRAPHICS, PHOTOGRAPHY, MACINTOSH##
#################################################################
E-MAIL: [email-masked]
#################################
#    ___    ___                 #
#       ›__/  ___   _______     #
#       |@@|_/   ›^/› › › ››    #
#       ›--/-^ ^ ^ ›/_/_/_//    #
#           /  |  ›             #
#          /   |   ›            #
#                               #
#################################

From [email-masked] Wed Feb 15 23:35:32 EST 1995
Article: 15144 of misc.rural
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: [email-masked] (Scott Currier)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Black Widows
Date: 14 Feb 1995 11:13:12 -0700
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organi[sz]ation
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.cs.du.edu

In article <[email-masked]>,  <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>Hi everybody,
>We live in the country and have in this location for 5 years. My problem
>is that each winter we get black widows in our garage. The first couple
>of years we had 10 to 15 of them that I killed. Recently I kill about 4
>to 5 a winter. The problem doesn't exist in the summer. I hate these
>pests and am concerned about a family member getting bit. Does anyone
>know how prevent them from coming in.  Thanks, ahead of time.
>
>
>Bodean
>e-mail [email-masked]

In the fall, around august/september, I place pieces of
plywood around my yard, flat down on the ground.

After about 2 to 4 weeks, flip the boards over
and kill all of the adolescent widows that have
taken up residence.  Be aware that the widows
will not be black, but a moetled brown
color.  They do not turn black until adulthood.

Having been biten by a widow, I can heartily agree
with your decision to kill them off.

scurrier
--
[email-masked]
Elizabeth, Colorado

From [email-masked] Fri Feb 17 22:44:53 EST 1995
Article: 5425 of alt.sustainable.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!gmi!msunews!caen!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: [email-masked] (GPIGG)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Black Widow Spiders-Safe Handling?
Date: 14 Feb 1995 22:46:04 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 1
Sender: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked] (GPIGG)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Obtain some Banty hens.  They will search them out for food.  Good luck.

From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 15:37:29 EST 1995
Article: 638 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.mathworks.com!newshost.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!uunet!nntp.cac.washington.edu!carson.u.washington.edu!puffinus
From: Christopher Wood <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.physics,sci.bio,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 02:31:35 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]> 
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.med:100494 sci.med.physics:3068 sci.bio:21778 sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera:638

Please ignore name in header.  This message is from Rod Crawford, Curator 
of Arachnids, Burke Museum, University of Washington.

Which newsgroup did this thread originate on, anyway??  If it can be 
identified, further discussion should be limited to that one.  
Otherwise, please everyone limit followups to sci.med and sci.bio 
in the interests of saving bandwidth.  My response to the original 
message appears below:

> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
> (Mary E. Bowen) wrote:
> 
> > According to the doctor, my husband has received a nasty bite from a brown
> > recluse spider.  The only info we have been able to find indicates that skin
> > cells begin to die at the point of injection of toxin and continues to grow.
> > The doctor will measure growth within a week to determine if surgery is 
> > required to remove the lump that has resulted.
> > 
> > Any information about the spider, bite symptoms, treatments would be
> > greatly appreciated.
> 

There are several things you should know regarding "necrotic spider bites."

1) This is a "grab-bag" designation for conditions where there is an open 
sore of unknown origin and the root cause is not obvious.  In nearly all 
such cases, no spider was seen and the MD has no basis for asserting that 
any spider was involved, let alone what *species* of spider is 
responsible.  Approximately 80% of "spider bite cases" referred to 
specialists prove to derive from other causes such as fungus infections, 
insect bites, poison ivy, etc.

2) the Brown Recluse Spider (Latin name Loxosceles reclusa) occurs in the 
south central USA, basically from Louisiana north through Kansas, west to 
Nebraska and east as far as the Florida panhandle.  There have been 
isolated findings outside this area but nearly all genuine bite cases are 
within the area noted.  Unfortunately, few MDs are aware of this fact; 
when they find a "necrotic spider bite" they automatically blame it 
on the only spider they've ever heard of.  Outside its primary area of 
distribution, essentially 100% of "brown recluse spider bite" cases are 
cases of *mis-diagnosis* by the MD.

3) The local symptoms of recluse bite (as well as of several other spider 
species) result from a hemotoxin that damages capillaries, cutting off 
blood supply to an area of tissue and causing that tissue to die.  The 
venom acts very rapidly although the effects may not be complete for 
weeks.  Thus, no subsequent treatment can reverse the tissue 
desctruction.  Antibiotics do not help, except in preventing secondary 
infections.  In the vast majority of cases, the bite-caused necrosis will 
heal in 4-6 weeks.  A few unlucky victims have a protracted response, 
lose a larger amount of tissue, and require corrective surgery.  Bites of 
this type are almost never fatal.

4) Spiders found in the USA whose bites are clinically significant 
include at least the following (there are probably a few others not 
yet discovered):
Eastern Black Widow, Latrodectus mactans
Northern Widow, Latrodectus variolus
Western Black Widow, Latrodectus hesperus (only widow west of Texas)
Brown Recluse, Loxosceles reclusa (south central USA)
Chilean Recluse, Loxosceles laeta (So. Calif. cities)
Several other recluse species which rarely contact humans
Hobo Spider, Tegenaria agrestis (Pacific Northwest, bites generally mis-
   diagnosed as brown recluse with resulting incorrect treatment)
(no common name) Cheiracanthium mildei (northern U.S. cities)

Most of these are unknown to reference books, which are typically 20 
years behind the primary literature, at least where spiders are concerned.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but you've got me onto my hobby horse 
(and the subject of a large percentage of the public phone calls I receive).
------  Rod Crawford <[email-masked]>

From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 15:41:03 EST 1995
Article: 641 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!paladin.american.edu!auvm!NMSU.EDU!drichman
Comments: Gated by [email-masked]
Newsgroups: sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <Pine.3.07.9503060809.C4224-b100000@dante>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:21:15 -0700
Sender: "Lepidoptera List (LEPS-L)" <[email-masked]>
From: "David B. Richman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Lines: 24

The brown recluse spider is a specific member of the spider genus
Loxosceles-  Loxosceles reclusa.  It ranges from eastern New Mexico to
northern Georgia and from Texas to Illinois, with occasional records (no
doubt transported) from most of the continental United States.  The venom
of the members of this genus is tissue-destroying and the bite usually
results in a lesion from the size of a nickel to a quarter.  Occasional
the venom is transported to the liver or other internal organs and
systematic poisoning results.  The usual danger is from infection of the
open wound, which takes a long time to heal.  Early treatment with
cortizone is often helpful, if the victim is not allergic to steroids.
Several other species of Loxosceles are found in the United States, mostly
in the Southwest.  These include L. deserta (California, Arizona), L.
apachea (New Mexico and West Texas), L. blanda (Pecos River Valley New
Mexico and Texas), L. arizonica (Arizona), and L. devia (Texas).  Two
other species have been introduced, including the more dangerous South
American L. laeta (Cambridge, Mass. <apparently eradicated> and California).
 As people move into wilder areas in the west they will be encountering
the local species more and more.  The brown recluse is well adapted to
living in the dry environment of people's houses and will build webs
(rather fungus-like productions) in drawers and in any clutter left
around for any length of time,

David B. Richman
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM

From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 15:43:31 EST 1995
Article: 643 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: Jim Herndon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]> from
              "Werner J. Lilie" at Mar 5, 95 03:35:54 am
Lines: 17

     Concerning the spider bite which was asked about by Mary Bowen,  there is
a method of treating spider and also snake bites which I believe was developed
here in Ada, Ok. by a Dr. Osborne.  I have never had the treatment, but have
talked with several people who have and they all say it works great.  I also
understand that it has been used in hundreds of cases, and I believe that it
always works.

     The method involves the use of a "stun gun" on the area.  After the patient
recieves the electrical shock,then the area heals up rather quickly. It probably
depends on how long you waited before receiving the treatment. That is all I
know, but if your doctor is unable to find out about the treatment, please
let me know and I will try to get you the name and phone number of a doctor
who can tell you about it.  Dr Osborne has now died (not from a spider bite),
and I'm not sure who is the local doctor who knows about it, but feel sure
I could track one down.

Good Luck,
Jim Herndon   [email-masked]

From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 15:45:00 EST 1995
Article: 642 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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Lines: 23

Research by Darwin K. Vest, Washington State University, has shown that
_Tegenaria agrestis_ (a.k.a. Hobo Spider) bites can cause necrotic lesions
identical to those of _Loxosceles reclusa_, the Brown Recluse.   There are
many reports of "Brown Recluse Spider bites" every year in Washington State
- despite the fact that the only specimen ever collected in that state was
from a trailer from Kansas  in 1978.

_T. agrestis_ is a European member of the Funnel web spider family first
reported in the northwest U.S. in 1936.  By the mid-sixties the spider had
become established in several larger cities of Washington, Oregon and Idaho.
It is now a prevalent species in basements and in window wells of houses in
many parts of Washington.

Cheers,
Dave Pehling

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From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 15:46:26 EST 1995
Article: 644 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: Gaden Robinson <[email-masked]>
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Lines: 13

As an antidote to spider-bite correspondence, read "Redback" by Howard
Jacobson. Hardback was first published ca. 1986 and I think it's now
available in paperback. Wicked stuff!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gaden S. Robinson, Biodiversity Division, Department of Entomology,
The Natural History Museum, Cromwell Road, LONDON SW7 5BD, UK.
Tel.: +44-(0)171-938-9494. Fax: +44-(0)171-938-8937.
INTERNET: [email-masked] [or] [email-masked]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE that all UK telephone codes except for those of five cities
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work NOW. Codes for Sheffield, Leeds, Nottingham, Leicester and Bristol
will be changed completely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From [email-masked] Wed Mar  8 16:20:18 EST 1995
Article: 21781 of sci.bio
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From: [email-masked] (Wolfgang Wuster)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider (fwd)
Date: 6 Mar 1995 07:40:53 -0600
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Melissa N. Matusevich wrote
Newgroups: sci.med, sci.med.physics, sci.bio, sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider 

> Aren't the brown recluse and the black widow the only two
> poisonous spiders found in the United States?  

They are the only ones capable of causing serious or life-threatening 
damage. Some other species can probably give you a painful bite.
Strictly speaking, practically all spiders are venomous (poisonous means 
toxic to eat, venomous means capable of injecting toxins), in that they 
have a venom apparatus. However, most either aren't able to penetrate 
human skin, or have very weak venom which has no effect on humans.

Wolfgang Wuster
       
Thought for the day:
If you see a light at the end of the tunnel, it is probably a train.

From [email-masked] Fri Mar 10 00:36:32 EST 1995
Article: 656 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: [email-masked] (Alan Harder)
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
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>>>>> " " == Melissa N Matusevich <[email-masked]> writes:
In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Melissa N. Matusevich) writes:

 > Aren't the brown recluse and the black widow the only two poisonous
 > spiders found in the United States?

It depends on what you mean by poisonous.  There are lots of spiders
out there that can raise a big mean nasty welt.  I personally consider
that poisonous.  The Black Widow and Brown Recluse do have the
nastiest poisons, though.  Of course, they pale in comparison to the
funnel web spider in Australia.

-Alan Harder                
 [email-masked]

The above commentary, which does not *even* represent the opinion of
the American Mathematical Society, is sold by weight, not by volume.
Some settling of the contents may have occurred during shipping.

From [email-masked] Sun Mar 12 12:37:40 EST 1995
Article: 682 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: [email-masked] (Pierre A Plauzoles)
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
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In a previous article, [email-masked] (Christopher Wood) says:

>Which newsgroup did this thread originate on, anyway??

I think you should know the origin of this post: here on s.b.e.l.

>1) This is a "grab-bag" designation for conditions where there is an open 
>sore of unknown origin and the root cause is not obvious.  In nearly all 
>such cases, no spider was seen and the MD has no basis for asserting that 
>any spider was involved, let alone what *species* of spider is 
>responsible.  Approximately 80% of "spider bite cases" referred to 
>specialists prove to derive from other causes such as fungus infections, 
>insect bites, poison ivy, etc.

This may in fact be true to some extent, but I think you should go to 
Silverton, Colorado.  Before you, arm yourself with sufficient antivenom 
to cover any incident that might occur.  A friend of mine, John Petros 
(ex-President of the Pacific Railroad Society), was bitten by a spider 
whose bite caused symptoms **very similar** to those you described, 
apparently while standing in the vicinity of the town's train station 
platform.  His doctor not knowing what was going on, he decided to 
investigate himself.  It was then that he found spiders under the edge of 
the platform.  I believe these were subsequently identified as Loxosceles 
reclusa.  Incidentally, L reclusa has been identified from the edge of 
the San Gabriel Mountains in Sierra Madre, California (Los Angeles 
County, northeast of Los Angeles).  Whether this has since been revised 
or not I do not know.
-- 
Pierre Plauzoles   [email-masked]
Canoga Park, California

From [email-masked] Sat Mar 25 10:34:07 EST 1995
Article: 775 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: [email-masked]  (Julie "Mudgie" Stahlhut)
Newsgroups: sci.med.physics,sci.med,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995  13:07 est
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In Article <[email-masked]> "[email-masked]" says:
> 
> In article <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]> writes:
> 
> > All spiders in the U.S. contain venom, and, therefore, are venomous.  More 
> than 13 species are able to produce human toxicity after a bite.
> 
> 
> > Aren't the brown recluse and the black widow the only two
> > poisonous spiders found in the United States?  
> 

It's a matter of interpretation, really; spiders paralyze and digest their
prey by injecting a combination of enyzmes and other nasty organics into
them.  Any spider bite, for this reason, will be painful; it's full of
antigens and chemical irritants, just like a bee sting.  (Bee venom is
different from spider venoms, but a spider bite hurts, and causes a
local reaction, for the same reason.)

Some spiders, like the black widow (Latrodectus mactans) and the brown
recluse (Loxosceles sp., and I forget which sp.) can deliver venoms which
are especially toxic to humans.  Deaths are rare, but the experience
of being bitten by one of these spiders would be thoroughly unpleasant
to a human.  

For what it's worth, the leading cause of arthropod-inflicted human 
deaths in the U.S. is anaphylaxis (severe generalized allergic reaction)
as the result of stings by bees and wasps.  Spiders aren't in the same
league, nor are insect-borne diseases like eastern equine encephalitis.

Julie K. Stahlhut, Hellgrammite Tamer   [email-masked]
     "My love, she's like a severed bug head in the morning."
             -- Richard W. Stahlhut, thoroughly out of context.

From [email-masked] Thu Mar 30 23:11:25 EST 1995
Article: 22336 of sci.bio
Newsgroups: sci.med.physics,sci.med,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera,sci.bio
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From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
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In article <[email-masked]>
[email-masked]  (Julie "Mudgie" Stahlhut) writes:
>> > All spiders in the U.S. contain venom, and, therefore, are venomous.  More
 
Not all spiders have venom.  Some don't (rare tho).  I can't say where these
non-venomous spiders are tho (US vs rest of world).
>
>
>It's a matter of interpretation, really; spiders paralyze and digest their
>prey by injecting a combination of enyzmes and other nasty organics into
>them.  Any spider bite, for this reason, will be painful; it's full of
>antigens and chemical irritants, just like a bee sting.  (Bee venom is
>different from spider venoms, but a spider bite hurts, and causes a
>local reaction, for the same reason.)
>
>
No, spider bites do not especially hurt.  I deal with MANY people who have
been bitten by toxic spiders (in most cases the hobo spider, Tegenaria
agrestis, which causes nasty necrotic lesions, NW US, Utah).  The most any
ever felt was a pin-prick, which is what one would expect from the
physical action of the fangs.  That's why so many people get nasty lesions
from this spider...they figure, oh, didn't hurt, it doesn't matter, or they
are bitten in bed, and never felt the bite.  By the time it necroses, it's
too late to treat!
 
The part of the venom that causes pain is VERY expensive for a species to
produce.  Yellowjackets, bees, others use it just about only for defense from
larger predators raiding their honey/larva stock.  They rarely, if ever, use
the sting/venom for prey capture. Sometimes against other conspecifics/pred.
insects.  Spiders just don't have enough to defend for them to invest in
a pain-causing venom constituent. (Tho I will not say that all spiders don't
have painful bites...always exceptions, but prob. very rare).
 
Later symptoms resulting from spider bites can be quite painful, especially
those spiders that have neurotoxic venoms like the black widow.
 
Spiders know to cause problems (so many aren't studied, so who really knows?)
          (in U.S.)
black and brown widows - Latrodectus spp.
recluse spiders (var. species) - Loxosceles spp.
Cheiracanthium spp. (inclusum, mildei) - golden house spider, golden sac spider
     (sometimes Chiracanthium spp spelling)
hobo spider (use to be aggressive house spider) - Tegenaria agrestis
Tarantulas - not venom, but hairs on body can cause anaphylactic shock
(Phoneutria spp. - occas. found on bananas from S. America in U.S. grocery
   stores, not know to be native, but is dangerous).
 
ANY OTHERS??
 
Liz Myhre
*****************************************************************
DEPT ENTOMOLOGY              **                                **
WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY  **ENTOMOLOGIST IN URBAN ENTOMOLOGY**
PULLMAN, WA  99164-6382      **CHEMICAL TESTING, CARPENTER ANTS**
PHONE: 509-335-3681          **YELLOWJACKETS, TOXIC SPIDERS    **
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From [email-masked] Thu Mar 30 23:19:10 EST 1995
Article: 22444 of sci.bio
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From: [email-masked] (Daniel Heald)
Newsgroups: sci.med.physics,sci.med,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera,sci.bio
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:05:15 +0700
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In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Louis M. Pecora) wrote:

> I believe there is a very deadly spider in Australia, one that will attack
> people (and other animals, too), especially in its mating season. I forget
> the name, but the Smithsonian had a special exhibit on spiders this last
> year and made special mention of this nasty character.

Please excuse the ignorance of an amatuer, but I believe you're refering to the The Sydney funnelweb, the most dangerous spider in the world, and one of a number of megalomorph (?) spiders of the genus Atrax (?). 

They're quite common - I found a large female under a stump while looking for xylovorous caterpillars last Saturday - and can survive underwater in swimming pools for several days

Alternatively there's the redback (closely related to the black widow and a similarly dangerous New Zealand spider), any number of trapdoors and bird-eaters, the white-tailed spider that causes necrotic lesions, the mouse spider, similar to the funnelweb 
but which prefers the house, large huntsmans also known as triantelopes or "tarantulas" and probably a few others that likewise probably wouldn't kill you, or even cause much pain, but which are large and hairy enough to send people into screaming hysteri
c

s (the stars in Arachnophobia were an Australian species....) Most of these will reside in gumboots and bite off your leg if you're not careful. 
>
-- 
Daniel Heald

Shaffer's Law - the length of the thread is proportional to the distance from the topic

From [email-masked] Thu Mar 30 23:21:11 EST 1995
Article: 22435 of sci.bio
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.mathworks.com!news.alpha.net!uwm.edu!msunews!ms148slab.prl.msu.edu
From: [email-masked]  (Julie "Mudgie" Stahlhut)
Newsgroups: sci.med.physics,sci.med,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera,sci.bio
Subject: Spider bites (was: Brown Recluse)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995  12:08 est
Organization: Michigan State University
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In Article <[email-masked]> "[email-masked] (Louis M. Pecora)" says:
> 
> I believe there is a very deadly spider in Australia, one that will attack
> people (and other animals, too), especially in its mating season. I forget
> the name, but the Smithsonian had a special exhibit on spiders this last
> year and made special mention of this nasty character.
 
It's the Sydney funnel-web, and it's reputed to be quite deadly to humans
and other primates.  I don't know its scientific name.  Males supposedly
become aggressive during mating season, and are likely to enter houses.
I've heard they're not particularly dangerous to other animals; they'll 
bite your curious cat or dog, but the bite won't be fatal to a non-primate.

Thanks to everyone who clarified my comment about spider bites;
indeed, they do not always hurt, at least not right away.  Some of the 
spider venoms which cause tissue damage take a while to take effect.
The spiders which have bitten me, however, hurt me as much as a bee sting,
and the effect was immediate.

Julie K. Stahlhut, Hellgrammite Tamer   [email-masked]
 "Morons serve a very useful evolutionary purpose.  Who do you think
   first discovered that saber-tooth tigers do not make good housepets,
    vital information for everybody else?"
   
   -- Matthew P. "Here, kitty, kitty, kit --- AARRGGGHH!" Wiener, 
           on talk.origins

 hurt.  I deal with MANY people who have
> : been bitten by toxic spiders (in most cases the hobo spider, Tegenaria
> :
st cases the hobo spider, Tegenaria
> : agrestis, which causes nasty necrotic lesions, NW US, Utah).  The most
sions, NW US, Utah).  The most any
> : ever felt was a pin-prick, which is what one would expect fro
one would expect from the
> : p
people get nasty lesions
> : fr
 doesn't matter, or they
> : are bitten in bed, and never felt the bite.  By the time it necroses, it's
> : too la
 time it necroses, it's
> : too late to treat!
> 
>     I know of only one spider that has a painf
der that has a painful bite...the sun spider of
> England.  It is not poisonous, though.

I believe th

From [email-masked] Thu Mar 30 23:37:20 EST 1995
Article: 22431 of sci.bio
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nntp.cac.washington.edu!carson.u.washington.edu!puffinus
From: Christopher Wood <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: spiders......black widow.......help!!!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 01:09:21 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news.u.washington.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]> 

Please ignore name in header.
This message is from Rod Crawford, Burke Museum, University of Washington,
Seattle, WA, USA.

I can't write your report for you over the 'net, but I can refer you to
the best references (assuming you have access to a university-level
library or at least a good interlibrary loan department).

The basic reference on black widow biology is:
Kaston, B.J.  1970.  Comparative biology of American black widow
spiders.  Transactions of the San Diego Society of Natural History,
16(3): 33-82.
    Kaston's reclassification of the American black widows into 3
distinct species made most things written about them before this
obsolete.  Many reference books, encyclopedias, etc. STILL haven't caught
onto this, and it's 25 years later!!  Kaston also gives about all the
info about black widow biology that you can find out in a lab.

For their place in the food web, see:
Exline, Harriet, and Melville H. Hatch.  1934.  Note on the food of the
black widow spider.  Journal of the New York Entomological Society 42:
449-450.
Pratt, Robert Y. and Melville H. Hatch.  1938.  The food of the black
widow spider on Whidbey Island, Washington.  Journal of the New York
Entomological Society 46: 191-193.
   Basically, black widows are generalist predators on ground crawling
insects etc. but specialize to some extent on darkling (tenebrionid) beetles.

Hope this helps.

Rod Crawford
<[email-masked]>

On 29 Mar 1995, Mark Bozek wrote:

> I am doing a report on spiders, the black widow actually...
> i will be studying its place on the food web, fecundity, carrying capacity,
> its biome and much more...
> If anyone has any info on the black widow, or spiders in general
> please e mail me at
>
> [email-masked]
>
> thank you....your help is appreciated
>

From [email-masked] Fri Apr  7 11:33:13 EDT 1995
Article: 841 of sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
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From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked] (News)
Organization: Washington State University
References:  <Pine.SUN.3.91.950328103457.14521A-100000@dante>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 23:04:04 GMT
Lines: 26

In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950328103457.14521A-100000@dante>
"David B. Richman" <[email-masked]> writes:
  <snip>
>mildly toxic venom.  There may be others, but I would not panic.  Even
>black widows, which we have by the billions in the Southwest, cause only
>a handfull of bites over a year.  You are much more likely to be struck
>by lightning, or even more likely to be in an auto accident, than to be
>bitten by any spider!
 
Yes, not too many bites occur.  I do note that Tegenaria agrestis is much
more likely to encounter humans than some of these other spiders though.  They
are very abundant in their range, and we get some people with 1-2 dozen
males entering their homes in the fall looking for females.  While giving
talks in the PNW on the spider, usually 1-2 people come up and say "hey, that's
what bit me last year."  Usually it's the horror cases that cause general panic
among the public. You should see the photos on my desk of some poor lady's
leg...a 1/4 inch deep hole ca 1.5 x 2 inches in diameter.   This is from
Washington, suspected T. agrestis, remote posibility of recluse as her mom
came back from Florida the previous day.
 
Liz Myhre
Dept. Entomology
Washington St. Univ.
Pullman, WA.   99164-6382
[email-masked]

From [email-masked] Sat Sep 28 22:21:02 EDT 1996
Article: 38063 of triangle.general
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From: [email-masked] (Bob Michael)
Newsgroups: triangle.general
Subject: Re: Spider Dangerous?
Followup-To: triangle.general
Date: 25 Sep 1996 16:52:01 GMT
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Since we're talking about spiders, the daddy longlegs spider, universally
tolerated and loved, is actually one of the most venomous spiders around. 
Catch is, they can't bite deeply enough to harm a human.  

From [email-masked] Sat Sep 28 22:29:03 EDT 1996
Article: 38031 of triangle.general
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!capella
From: Camille Klein <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: triangle.general
Subject: Re: Spider Dangerous?
Date: 25 Sep 1996 00:53:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
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Seth Fehrs ([email-masked]) murdered some electrons to write:

# There are two types of poisionous spiders around here, black widows and
# violin spiders.  The black widows really aren't that bad for most people,
# like a bad bee sting.  If you are allergic to bees and bug bites in 
# general, the black widow can be a problem.  

People can and do die from black widow bites--usually small children, the
elderly, and people of poor constitutions.

# Violin spiders are supposed to be more more toxic than black widows.  

Wrong.  It is rare--extremely rare--that one will die from a bite from the
Brown Recluse (and its cousins).  

HOWEVER--the toxin in the venom of the Brown Recluse does cause some
rather unpleasant symptoms, as detailed in the following quote from a
document by the Ohio State University Extension Service:

"The severity of a person's reaction to the bite depends on the amount of
venom injected and individual's sensitivity to it. Bite effects may be
immediate or delayed. Some may not be aware of the bite for 2-8 hours,
whereas others feel a stinging sensation usually followed by intense pain.
A small white blister usually rises at the bite site surrounded by a large
congested and swollen area. Within 24-36 hours a systemic reaction
may occur with the victim characterized by restlessness, fever, chills,
nausea, weakness and joint pain. The affected area enlarges, becomes
inflamed and the tissue is hard to the touch. The spider's venom contains
an enzyme that destroys cell membranes in the wound area with affected
tissue gradually sloughing away, exposing underlying tissues. Within 24
hours, the bite site can erupt into a "volcano lesion" (a hole in the
flesh due to damaged, gangrenous tissue). 

The open wound may range from the size of an adult's thumbnail to the span
of a hand. The sunken, ulcerating sore may heal slowly in up to 6-8 weeks.
Full recovery may take several months and scarring may remain. Plastic
surgery and skin grafts are sometimes required."

In either case (black widow or brown recluse), I think an exterminator
would be helpful.

--Camille.  Yes, I do study spiders in my spare time.

--
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