Subject: Getting Together

From: Andrew Evans <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:00:19 -0500 (EST)

Did any of you catch the Real Goods Remote Homes Tour last October?  If 
you missed it, they may be doing another one this year.  Basically, Real 
Goods signed up a bunch of people who own off-grid homes and had them 
hold an open house.  You could call Real Goods and get a list of the 
participant homes in your region, and then on the Tour day, you could 
arrange to visit them.  I went to three homes in Maryland, and it was a 
fantastic experience.  For people considering building an off-grid home, 
there is no substitute for going and seeing real working off-grid homes 
and having a chance to grill the owners for the gory details of how they 
built their systems, how well they run, what they would do differently, etc.

Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on 
me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general.  
Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - 
active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders.  Why not try to get 
them together?  How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of 
us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it?  I'd be 
willing to act as a coordinator, if need be.  What do you think?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Andrew Evans                      | Compu$erve: 70711,745         |
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From: Sal Schettino <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:11:13 -0800 (PST)

I got cats that eat mice.  I get them on the hungry side and never ever 
pet them .  Their job is eatting rats mice gophers and that what they 
do.  The ones they don't eat they scare the heck out of.  ever notice how 
most poison has a cat looking at a mouse on the package . thats because 
they eat mice.  most people have pet cats and would never think of their 
cat eatting a dirty old mice but these cats eat mice or rats or chipmunks 
whatever or go skinny.  the best thing that ever happen to me was when 
mom cat show up a phro cat.  it had babys and they are wild also . I keep 
them that way. yeah they got flees yeah their breath smells like dead 
mice still I'm glad i got um.  
ofcourse you can't use poison because you will kill the cats and barn 
owls which also have to eat a rat or gopher eevery night or starve. 

On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Jeff Owens wrote:

>   Sounds like an outstanding idea.  This would be an
>   educational experience for everyone involved.  Count us in.
> 
>   Also, does anyone have a solution to vole and mice eating
>   root crops.  They keep going after our sun chokes and
>   carrots.  We have tried traps and cats so far.  Someone
>   said scatter ashes around the crops, but have not tried
>   that yet.  Any other ideas.
> 
>   Here is an idea for controlling moles and gophers that
>   works fairly well.  Many burrowing rodents have very
>   sensitive noses and do not like burnt sulphur.  So every
>   spring we drive them out with simple home make sulphur
>   smoke bombs.  Just put them in the holes every few months,
>   light and cover with dirt.
> 
>   The bombs are make out of potassium nitrate fertilizer,
>   sugar, and sulphur.  Add a little water, mix into a dough.
>   Then roll up in newspaper tubes and bake in the sun.  If
>   you have kids, they go crazy running around and plugging up
>   all the holes with smoke coming out.  Good for half a day
>   of fun.
> 
> Jeff (vote with your lifestyle)
> 

Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,[email-masked]
or check out my homepage:            http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html

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From: Andrew Hulse <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:07:50 -0800 (PST)

> do.  The ones they don't eat they scare the heck out of.  ever notice how 
[...]

I grew up on a farm like this, but I have read quite a number of articles 
in recent years about the damage that cats do to songbird populations.  
Apparently it's gotten so bad in Great Britain that they're in danger of 
losing entire species.  It sort of gave me a new perspective on my 
father's lament about the disappearance of bluebirds and barn swallows 
over the past thirty years.

There are other factors as well, namely destruction of habitat in North 
and Central America, but as a cat person I wonder if I should put a bell 
on my cat when she leaves the barn...

Does anyone else consider this?

--Andy

Andrew Hulse                  |  Opinions are mine, not the Regents'
graduate student, EECS        |  University of California
[email-masked]         |  Davis, CA  95616

Antique Mechanics URL: http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/~hulse/collection.html

---

From: Sal Schettino <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 22:29:21 -0800 (PST)

> Does anyone else consider this?
You may be right but I have less rats and mice and still see lots of 
songbirds around here.  yeah they get a few .  guess I just hate rats and 
mice and poison and beleave me they were thick around here before the 
cats showed up.  If you leave a little brush around and maybe a hegerow 
or two I 
think the birds will be ok.  If someone comes up with a better organic 
way to get rid of rats and mice and gophers I may change my mind. >

---

From: Andrew Evans <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:42:05 -0500 (EST)

I went to three homes in Maryland - 
* One was an owner-built log house built with hand-peeled logs from the 
homesite.  They have a large organic garden which provides most of their 
food, and a 12-panel PV array that provides all of their electricity.  
This was an interesting case, because the solar array, batteries, and 
inverter were located several hundred feet from the house, out in the 
field with the garden.  The owner walked us through the whole system, and 
it was really instructional to see it all up close like that.  Makes it a 
lot less scary, especially when you talk to the owner and see what's 
really involved in building and maintaining the system.  Also, we talked 
about the building codes and inspection hassles he had, and how he would 
handle it all if he had it to do over again.  There is just nothing like 
bending the ear of an old pro!
* The next house I went to was my favorite.  These folks are doing just 
about exactly what I would want to do.  They built (themselves, with some 
contractor assistance) a passive solar, superinsulated house with a 
high-thermal-mass (soapstone) wood stove for additional heating.  They 
have a 6-panel array (if I remember correctly) for all their 
electricity.  Both this house and the previous house use electric water 
pumps - the first house had to pump 270 feet of head.  The solar arrays 
handle it all.  On this house, the PV array (but not the 
batteries/inverter) were also located about a hundred feet from the 
house, in the clearing by their pond.  They did this because the passive 
solar design of their house requires shading in the summer, so the house 
is at the edge and just inside the woods.  Thus, the panels have to be 
located away from the house to get sunlight year-round.  They have a huge 
organic garden which provides most of their food, and a great root cellar 
built partially under the kitchen for inside access.  The house is 
designed with alot of north-facing skylights, and is very bright during the 
day, virtually eliminating the need for electric lighting during the day 
(look sometime at the amount of electric lighting you use during the day 
- it may surprise you!).  Both they and the previous house use some 
propane - for refrigeration, water heating, and backup electric 
generator.  Their generator rarely kicks in - maybe once a year for a few 
hours or so.
* The last house I went to was along the Chesapeake Bay.  It was a 
timber-frame passive-solar house designed by the owner (an architect).  
This was a multi-million-dollar house, way out of my league, and not a 
homestead by any stretch.  Nice house though.  The others were 
owner-built from site-harvested materials (I forgot to mention that on 
the second house they had the local Amish community help them mill lumber 
from the timber cleared for their house, garden, and pond, and they built 
their house for about 10 cents a board foot.

All-in-all, it was an inspirational experience, and I look forward to 
doing it again, and also to getting my own homestead going and on the 
tour.  Also, I was surprised by the number of people who took part - some 
there were thirty or forty people at the second house in the brief period 
I was there, with people coming and going all the time.

On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Karl Henning wrote:

> Yeah sounds great,  what did you see at the tour?
> what did you like? didn't like?  
[snip]

---

From: Mike Mayer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:18:56 -0600 (CST)

Also, I think a well-fed cat is more likely to have more time and energy 
to spend hunting around the barn for mice. They hunt out of instinct - 
not just to eat. We have two barn cats that are kept well-fed and 
healthy. They still go prowling around inside and outsode the barn 
looking for mice. I would say it's always better to have a healthy 
well-fed cat around.
==============================================================================
 Mike Mayer                     (414) 751-3557           [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Jeff Owens)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 17:00:02 -0500

I may have found the solution to our mice and vole problem.
Did a little research and found that the number one factor
in mice and vole problems is having a food supply nearby.  So I
looked around a found two things.

  1. Our compost pile was too close to the garden.
  2. We have been tilling unused crops into the garden, 
     causing the rodents to dig in the garden areas.
     
We have been keeping our animal feed in metal drums, so that
is not a problem.  Our hay is open though, and that is definitely
attracting a few.  At least the cats seem to think that is a
good place to spend time.  But, the big problem seems to
be tilling in old crops.  Guess we will try composting
plants which are attracting the rodents.

Thanks to everyone who made suggestions.

---

From: [email-masked] (Karl Henning)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:14:44 EST

> graduate student, EECS        |  University of California

Absolutley thats a good idea.  We also have a mouser and he is good about it
in the basement 
but when we let him out he also good about getting things that help the soil.
In one case the moles are bad if they eat the roots in the garden but they
also eat grubs, small white worm like critters.  the cat also eats small
garden snakes which I want cause they eat other bugs.  So I am in a little
bit of a dilema with the cat outside.  He just kills and does not always 
eat it.  I don't want him starving and i don't want him getting parasites and 
worms cause he eats dead things.  I certainly do not want him eating birds.
 However, we also have a Malmute and anyone who knows this breed knows they
 dig.  She has been a contributer to the declining mole family in out 
 backyard and and perimeter of the garden ans she does not eat song birds.

---

From: MICHAEL BRZEZOWSKI <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:31:57 -0500 (EST)

> willing to act as a coordinator, if need be.  What do you think?
    As a prospective Homesteader, I would LOVE to come see some homes.  I 
live in the Philly area over summers and vacations, and Go to school at
State COllege, PA.

- Mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Jeff Owens)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 09:56:28 -0500

---

From: [email-masked] (Karl Henning)
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 95 13:06:18 EST

Luddite, what is the definition of this?  It sounds like anti-tech people
but can someone elaborate?  I see this in env. groups also.

---

From: Paul Girouard <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:31:07 -0500

In message <[email-masked]>you write:

=>> 
=>> Thinking about how valuable I found that experience to be, it dawned on 
=>> me that we could do something similar here, for homesteading in general.  
=>> Our readership seems to be made up (predictably) of two kinds of folks - 
=>> active homesteaders and prospective homesteaders.  Why not try to get 
=>> them together?  How about it - any homesteaders willing to let a few of 
=>> us dreamers bug you for a few hours and see how you do it?  I'd be 
=>> willing to act as a coordinator, if need be.  What do you think?
=>> 
=>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
=>> |  Andrew Evans                      | Compu$erve: 70711,745         |
=>> |  Compass Point Software, Inc.      | Internet:   [email-masked]   |
=>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
=>> |         Home Page: http://www.cais.com/aevans/homepage.html        |
=>> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
=>> 
=>> 
=>Yeah sounds great,  what did you see at the tour?
=>what did you like? didn't like?  
=>
=>Luddite, what is the definition of this?  It sounds like anti-tech people
=>but can someone elaborate?  I see this in env. groups also.  
=>
=>

Ludd-ite \'led-,[0xF5]^-t\ n
[Ned Ludd supposed Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery]
(1811)
:one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving
     machinery as a protest; broadly
:one who is opposed to esp. technological change 

   -Paul

---

From: [email-masked] (Dwayne)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 06:15:09 +1100 (EST)

I peeled a grape, and found that Paul Girouard had written upon it:
 
: Ludd-ite \'led-,[0xF5]^-t\ n
: [Ned Ludd supposed Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery]
: (1811)
: :one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving
:      machinery as a protest; broadly
: :one who is opposed to esp. technological change 

The thing is, though, they weren't mindless fools railing against
technology, they were a group of people who realised that the industrial
revolution was destroying their traditional way of life, and took steps to
prevent it. It's a shame that their movement became trivialised, but that's
the way of history, I guess.

Dwayne.

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