<>

From: wagner@mala.bc.ca 
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Pond Building
Date: 8 Mar 94 12:49:03 -0700

> For quite some time now, I've been contemplating building/having a pond built.
> Is building a pond something that an individual with the proper equipment
> could do, or are there some "secrets" to building a pond.  

It goes without saying that the most important aspect to ponds is a
source of
water.  No pun intended but it goes a lot deeper than that.  I just
built a 
80 by 40, 8 feet deep pond so we are talking about recent experience.

To line or not to line, that is the question...
I couldn't line the pond as it is 100% spring fed.  To line it would
prevent
any water supply at all.  Most sources say to line it.  Personally I
believe
this depends on how much water will go through the pond.  Being spring
fed I
have considerable flow.  I also live in a wet climate.  Lining the
pond to me
would only be a factor of the inhabitants.  If I was raising Koy fish,
a liner
or some sort is desireable as the fish like to burrow in the mud and I
would 
never see them.  If you have a meager source of water and are subject
to dry
spells a liner is essential.  Don't use cheap plastic, if you are
going to 
keep water in it for the next few years, it will only be as good as
the quality
put in.  Personally I would opt for concrete (as most of the
aquaculturalists 
here at the college have done).  It is possible to have a Gunnite
spray liner
done without any work other than digging the hole.  There has been
considerable
comments on the availability of plastic materials for liners and as I
do not use
one I will leave those comments to those that do.

Safety, or what if anything falls in...
I had my pond dug by a fellow who reclaims logging sites, so any pond
he builds
are in the woods and are subject to animals falling in.  Do not build
steep 
sides and bangs.  Common sense will dictate what is too steep for any
animals to
climb out (example, mine is cut unto a hill, so the bank here is
deliberately 
steep to prevent animals from even trying to get out that way.  the
rest is 
contoured to lead any stray animals out).  Also assume that it may
become a 
water hole so make provisions.  This prevents watering in unsafe or
unwanted
areas of the pond.  Children are another problem again...

How to attact birds...
Do not put in any feeders.  I did, the  only activity is coons.  Your
pond
location will dictate if birds will be attracted to it.  A pond in
trees will 
not attract wild ducks (etc).  They do not like to be trapped on the
water.  If
the pond is out in the open it will surely attract birds.  If they
come and 
you want to feed ok.  Scatter feed only.  Remember, they will rapidly
become
"welfare cases".

Test the water...
Where your water comes from will determine its suitability for fish
and the
type.  It will also give you an indication of where it is being fed
from.  I
know of one pond that is totally useless as the neighbors septic
systemy hits
it almost directly.

To fish or not to fish, another question...
Fish of some sort are in my opinion essential.  The "invertibrate
population"
will start almost immediately.  Bird droppings transplant all sorts of
parasites
and insects.  By far the worst is mosquitos.  Fish are your best
control of this
nuisance.

Check your local fish and game regulations, you may need a permit for
some types
of fish.  In my area "hobby ponds" are licensed free, but must be
inspected. 
The major concern is the possibility of your stock escaping into local
streams.
You may have to dam the pond outflow and restrict drainage.

How hot does the water get in summer...
If you live in a hot area, you will have problems in the summer.
Algae will
thrive.  Whis will deplete the oxygen in your pond and do all sorts of
nasty
things.  Even though some fish thrive on algae aeration will be
necessary to
keep trout happy.

My biggest problem will be keeping the wife out of it.  This is a
definate no
no.  Ponds are great to look at but as healthy places to swim they are
out.

anyhoo, enuff for now...

One thing sure, they are sure fun.  I spent the whole weekend on mine
building
bank control on the outflow where we want to walk.  Sure can take up
ones time.




From: sher@bbn.com (Lawrence D. Sher)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Pond Building
Date: 8 Mar 1994 16:22:22 GMT

(I'm assuming that by "pond" you do not mean a 10' wading puddle.)

Secrets?  It depends on whether you want it done well or not.  

I'd suggest that you contact the local branch of the US Soil
Conservation Service for advice.  They may be able to point you at
good
pond builders too.

Some things to think about:
  Local and state regulations
  Seasonal ground water levels
  Pollution from surface streams or run-in
  Wind scouring of the surface
  Where to put the spoil
  Overflow provisions
  Overhanging vegetation
  Biological overgrowth 
  Liability issues

<>

From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyline
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:59:36 +1000

Hello Frank,

I hope that this greets you well....

The determination of the Keypoint is often subject to a range of
explanations. To me it is quite simple: look at a primary gully and see
where the landshape changes from being more convex than concave, at this
point drive a peg in the ground. Then get your dumpy level (bunyip, a-frame
or whatever else) and mark out a contour of this pegs elevation around
towards both adjacent ridges. Stop there. Do the other side. The contour
that you have marked out is the keyline. The next gully will have its own
keypoint, and its own keypoint.

The most economic landshape for dam construction is where the ground is dead
flat in some sort of drainage depression as you get the highest value water
storage capacity for every cubic metre of material pushed or excavated. This
is called the Storage Ratio. On steep gully sites (above a Keypoint for
example) the Storage ratio will be much less as the dam wall in many cases
will be larger than the water storage itself. Even in these cases we will
still construct a dam as they are cheaper storage's of water than say tanks.
We applied this principle a couple of weeks ago. The clients needed an
elevated storage to irrigate 1000 olive trees. Knowing that we needed around
1 Ml (megalitre = 1 million litres) of irrigation p.a. we surveyed a 1.5Ml
dam high on the slope opposite to grove. It was constructed as a contour or
hillside dam. The cost of the dam and diversion drain was about AUD$5K
(3days with a D6). If the dam had been constructed on a gentler slope it
would have only taken 1.5-2.0 days to build @ $140/hr) The cost of 100 000
litre (0.1Ml) tank was around $6.5K. The point is that even though the
storage ratio sucked, it was still the most cost effective storage
available.

Anyway post us a copy of your contour plan (scan and EMAIL)and I'll be able
to help you out as an open book exercise. I've been earthmoving now for
about 16 years, with the last 7 using keyline principles on over 700
properties so I think I may be able to help.

Cheers,

Yours and Growing,

Darren J. Doherty
www.australiafelix.com.au


From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyline
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:41:19 +1000


Hi Frank,

Thanks for the sentiments - I have been getting the mail early in the
morning before I go off to work without contributing - the keyline stuff I
can't go past though....The last discussion on imposing earthworks was
pretty interesting though, and had the thoughts of many clients echoing
through and through. I've probably built about 150 odd dams and lots of
house sites, roads etc. and I still find it difficult at times - but when
the dam's full, or the batters have grown back it all looks pretty good. As
a student of geology/geomorphology though, what I do with a dozer is nothing
compared with what the earth has done to itself and will probably continue
to long after we done our collective bit - so much for "permanent cultures"
and "permanent agricultures".......

In terms of your project though I'm interested in helping you through the
process of working out where your dams should go etc. I think we could do
this as an open book so that anyone else can put in their "two bobs worth"
and learn a bit along the way. I say this although I understand that we are
limited in the amount of information (ie. large picture files etc.) we can
put on this list - which is fair enough. I suppose if anyone was interested
a sub-forum could exist where such information could be shared. It doesn't
bother me whatever way we might go.

To work out your the location of your keypoints and therefore your keylines
you need a good topographic map as a starting point. A proper survey is even
better, although a lot of bush in the way makes that more expensive than
working on cleared land. If you can get your property and its catchments
scanned onto the pc and onto the e-mail we can get to work on locating the
keypoints quite easily.

The site planning stuff and dam design part is the easy part - the fun
begins in determining land suitability and capability for such works. This
is especially the case with soil profile surveys. We always as policy get a
cheap backhoe operator out to dig some 3m + deep pits in the dam site so
that we can check what's there and what material is available, and whether
its suited to dam construction/earthworks. Its good insurance as there is
nothing worse than getting down and not having enough good material to work
with. We do tests  that determine the soil texture, pH and Emerson readings
(dispersion/slaking test). Once we get all of that done then we peg out the
dam and get to work.

Anyway drop us a line if you want to proceed along this path as I'm more
than happy to help out.

To answer your last question, I have had a couple of sniffs, but nothing
definite - if I had I would have shook your hand by now !! No, it would be a
great experience, but one that I could only contemplate as a working study
tour thing. It would be improper to an extent for me to displace the work
opportunities of locals - however working with someone of my experience
would be another thing again. I think a few of us oz pc people have a lot of
expertise particularly on the earthworks/keyline front to offer, and I'm
sure there are skills that we could gain as part of the bargain.

In any case I have plenty on my plate.....we are just finishing ground
preparation (all chemical-free) works for the year (southern winter) in
readiness for planting in Spring/Summer planting. This year we're involved
with around 70 000 trees worth of planting. All of which are mixed species
analogue plantations. The main species we're planting are the following:

Eucalyptus tricarpa - red ironbark - 1270kg/m3
Eucalyptus leucoxylon - yellow gum - 1200kg/m3
Eucalyptus cladocalyx - sugar gum - 1300-1400kg/m3
Acacia implexa - lightwood - 850kg/m3
Acacia stenophylla - eumong
Acacia salicina - willow wattle
Casuarina cunninghamiana - river sheoak

We are also planting a few deciduous systems this year too. Robinia/Osage
Orange/Quercus/Gleditsia systems are being planted as rootlings on quite a
few sites.

Anyway enough of all that.....I hope that the stuff before the trivia makes
sense and that we can get things moving for you on that front.

Cheers,

Yours and Growing,

Darren J. Doherty
www.australiafelix.com.au



From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyline
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:26:54 +1000


Hello Frank,

Thanks for the reply. I 'll put together a list that I supply to my clients
that may be of use. In terms of timing well that's up to you - you can only
do things when you're ready.....

I'll get back to you later today/tomorrow,

Cheers

Darren

> In terms of your project though I'm interested in helping you through
> the process of working out where your dams should go etc. I think we could do
> this as an open book so that anyone else can put in their "two bobs worth"
> and learn a bit along the way.

> The last discussion on imposing earthworks was
> pretty interesting though, and had the thoughts of many clients echoing
> through and through.>> was this on the graze L list?  I have been off that
> one for a while and have only seen a few on the PC list. But nothing in
> depth.

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyline

<><><><>
Water, soil fertility/tilth, shade, shelter, etc.  
can be made more available to plants and animals 
though swaling, berming, hilling, ditching, catchment
and impoundment (ponds, pools, ditches, catch crops), 
Keyline plowing, Soil Saver tillage, rototilling and other methods 
of moving, tilling and shaping earth. Hand tools and machines with
or without different attached implements can be adapted to accomplish
a variety of construction tasks appropriate for all climatic
regions around the world.

Implements attached to heavy (or light) equipment could be
designed and fabricated to do do specific jobs. They could be made
adjustable so that the same machine could be used to do similar
jobs in different climates to reflect differences in soil type and 
tilth, residual moisture levels, depth of topsoil, size
and amount of rock in or near area to be prepared, potential for
erosion from rain, flood or wind. 

Ex. a D9-towed device following a pan excavator and dozer (with backhoe
on hand to remove rock or do other needed preparatory task) capable of
shaping a swale with a tilled herringbone-shaped array of small ridges
within, for added additional erosion control and water conservation.
This device could be adjusted so that it could build this type of swale
in different climates with different terrain, soil type, slopes
and rainfall.

For example, how would you prep a site for a massive planting of
eleagnus shrubs (the wild variety here in NC is a superb plant)
in all climates where it could survive and prosper?
What, if anything, would you plant with them? Eastern red cedar,
loblolly pine, wild muscadine grape, trumpet creeper (Campsis Radicans),
honeysuckle (Lonicera Japonica), Johnson Grass, vetch?
How would site preparation differ for each planting location?

You would need to accumulate and conserve moisture and provide
drainage or catchment (crop or impoundment) for any excess. The site
and plantings should be designed so that plant litter and silt
could easily accumulate and be recycled as plant and animal food 
and as mulch. You would need to prepare the site with the necessary earth
structures that would function to ensure the survival of your planting in
spite of extremes in weather conditions and animal predation.

This, to me is real "landscaping" and often far more beautiful
than the formalized, contrived ornamental.
<><><><><>

What I'm interested in here is "creative" swaling and berming,
and water channeling, to accomodate plantings within. For example,
maybe an olive grove could be planted within a system of
specially designed and constructed swales, as much a complete,
integrated microecosystem as possible, containing a diversity
of complementary and companion plants of all types, all growing
in a site that is protective, nourishing, self-sustaining
and capable of promoting robust growth, and food/fiber/medicine 
production.

I used to own and operate a John Deere 1020 gas tractor (40hp)
with loader, blade, Gill Rollover, disc plow, and a few other 
implements. I had dump truck and lowboy trailer to haul it around to
jobsites where I did landscaping and to horse stables where I gleaned 
lots of manure to take home and put on my fields. I quickly became 
enlightened about creative site preparation using a tractor/loader,
with the added benefit of having an abundance of manure and good 
topsoil with which to enhance any plantings. 

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:38:42 -0500
From: lbarnes <lbarnes@primeline.com>
Reply-To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Organization: Happy Trails Productions
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keyline 

Frank,
	The best way to store water is in the ground (less evaporation, most
cost effective, encourages deep rooting, etc.) Definately check into
keyline stuff which directs surface water along low angle subsoil
channels towards drier, relatively high ground where the water soaks
into the ground over a large area. Water availability is based mostly on
average rainfall, catchment area, and underground strata- if you are on
limestone, you might be able to tap into massive amounts of water
flowing thru fissures. You should consider developing small swells on
contour all over your property- so the water soaks in rather than runs
off. You might want to check with local dowsers to find out more about
the underground "veins" ("flowing aquifers") feeding your springs- there
are techniques where experienced dowsers are able to apparently change
the course of underground water to springs, etc. I'd be happy to turn
you on to water dowsing info,  references, and local contacts. Happy
Trails, Lee ( WNC, Southern Appalachian Mts.)


From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:36:56 +1000

> From: FranksFarm@aol.com
> In center of pond area is small elevated island with a few trees that
> I'd like to keep. How do you suggest we build this pond for wildlife, native
> plantings, irrigation etc.?

Its pretty difficult in my experience to do all of these things if you
intend using the dam for irrigation - that is unless you are only irrigating
a small area and have a dam that has a capacity that well exceeds this use.
What we do find however is that many native plants do establish themselves
on what is a general water level - regardless of irrigation, seepage (some
people call this leaks !!) and annual evapotranspiration (1300mm/yr in our
area).  These plants are usually brought in by upper catchment inflows and
waterfowl. Another strategy is were we instruct clients to sensitively
harvest seedheads etc. of local riparian species and then simply scatter
them on the water, where eventually wave action will bring them back to
shore where they will naturally find their niche at the appropriate
water/dampness level.

With islands you nearly always compromise dam depth. This can only be
overcome if the dam is large enough for exit and entry batters from the
island to shore to bottom out to a level close to the maximum. As most small
dams dry (or have water used for irrigation) the first thing to appear is a
landbridge between shore and island. What we prefer to do on dams less than
5 Ml is to make penisulas instead. These are easier to construct, have a
similar aesthetic quality and in some areas have the same function.


> 1) Get a copy of Mollison's A Designer's Manual

Also "Design and Construction of Small Earth Dams" by KD Nelson, Inkata
Press, Melbourne1985. ISBN 0 909605 34 3; "Farming in Ponds and Dams - An
Introduction to Freshwater Aquaculture in Australia" by Nick Romanowski,
Lothian, Melbourne, 1994, ISBN 0 85091 630 5 (this author has produced many
fine titles that are permaculture-based; "Farm Water Supplies - Planning and
Installation" by Neil Southorn, Inkata Press, Melbourne, 1995, ISBN 0 7506
8912 9; Also any of the PA Yeomans books eg. The Keyline Plan (1954), The
Challenge of Landscape (1958) - my favorite, The City Forest (1971), Water
for Every Farm (1966, 1968 & 1993).

> 2) The pond's edge should be crenelated, i.e. undulating, zigzag,
> ragged, ["lobular embayments" is a term Mollison uses on P.78 of DM]
> rather than a smooth continous curve. See pps. 481-483 of DM on
> "pond configuration and edge effects".

Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget. Also some of
those features require different machinery. Eg. We would use a dozer to make
most dams and they are capable of creating flowing linear edges. If we would
want to start cutting out different smaller shapes then we might need to
bring in either a backhoe or excavator which generally leave steepish
erodible batters, and require time consuming smoothing of excavated
overburden. If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.
(Another point is that dozers are not designed to push material around
tightish corners as it places too great a pressure on some operating parts -
they may appear invincible machines - they're not  and are damn expensive
things to repair). None of Bill's dams at the Tyalgum Institute property had
these features that I remember and I wonder whether any of his clients dams
have either - we need to speculate all options though to return back to the
what's possible - a point often missed....

> 3) Where runoff runs into pond construct a slightly graduated slope with
> different sized pebbles, rocks, gravel, sand - this could become an
> area where shellfish could breed - though usually flowing water is
> necessary - just a thought - maybe divert flow from a creek in and out of
> the pond

Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to develop
sustainable engineered widths/depths. I find it better to develop drainage
depression into forestry/wetland systems so that we don't have water running
over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment trapping, and then have rocks
then gravels and sands (especially for swimming). Freshwater
shellfish/crustaceans (mussels and yabbies (Cherax destructor) in our area
don't need much encouragement to breed - all they need is mud and detritus.
Local knowledge helps there.

> 4) Construct shallow, boggy, swampy areas for breeding grounds for aquatic
> creatures - plant reeds, cattails and other shallow water aquatic plants
> there (will provide cover for wildlife)
> 5) Make sure you construct areas where the water is shallow to semi
> shallow with rocks, sandbars, etc. for turtles and amphibians, esp. frogs

Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.

> 6) You want to be sure you have fertile ground at water's edge - so you'll
> get lush plant growth, weeds, plantings, etc. This is essential for
> wildlife feeding, breeding and cover, and shade in summer and erosion
> control, and nutrient catchment and filtering

By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.


From: FranksFarm@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:07:42 EDT
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>

Hi Darren,

In a message dated 8/2/99 11:45:28 AM, pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au writes:

<<that is unless you are only irrigating
a small area and have a dam that has a capacity that well exceeds this use.>> 
I hope that will be the case. I have too much water in spring running through 
and around pond area that I'd like to impound for other uses especially later 
in hot , dry summer months.

<<Another strategy is were we instruct clients to sensitively
harvest seedheads etc. of local riparian species and then simply scatter
them on the water, where eventually wave action will bring them back to
shore where they will naturally find their niche at the appropriate
water/dampness level.>> 

<<With islands you nearly always compromise dam depth.>>  


From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:52:27 +1000


Hi Frank,

I'm really pressed for time - I have
heaps of reports to complete and I'm in South Australia next week attending
a Neal Kinsey (Hand's on Agronomy) lecture on Advanced Albrecht Systems. It
just goes on and on. This stuff is fun though so I'll play at a few
responses before getting back to the stuff that pays the mortgage......

The batters are the excavated slopes of the dam: Batters are expressed as a
width to height ratio. A retaining wall has no batter as it is straight up
and down or has a 1:1 batter.  A slope that falls 1 metre vertically over 3m
horizontally is a 3:1 batter. Generally we prefer to restrict batters to at
least 3:1 with walls having 3:1 on the inside and 4:1 - 5:1 on the outside
to the toe. The problems associated with too steep a batters are many.
Erosion, particularly from wave action is the most significant. In addition
where you have dispersive soils the edges will tend to break away and
increase sedimentation. With your island you will find that an excavator
will be able to do the neatest job, although you'll have to make sure that
the batter from shore to bottom doesn't exceed 3:1 with the same slope
applied from bottom to top of island. Its easier to express as a diagram....

<<What we prefer to do on dams less than 5 Ml is to make penisulas
instead.>>

There are a couple fo formulae to work this out (I just get my surveyor to
work it out on his computer as a DEM) but for working it out you need to use
the prismoidal formula. Again this needs a diagram and I need more
time....1.25 Megalitres (1 250 000 litres) = 1 acre feet. 25 Ml = 20 acre
feet

> Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
> landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
> features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget.>> 

By using some of the resources I listed yesterday you can make some well
reasoned judgements as to how much dirt you will need to move. Your
earthmover should know how much his particular machine can push per
hour....To satisfy your own curiosity I would catch up with Caterpillar as
they have cubic feet/metres per hour figures for their different machines
(where operated optimally). This planning stuff is where you can save the
dough and quantify the job performance.

<....>

Sounds ok as long as he can finish the dam off as well. By that I mean can
he smooth off the batters and replace the topsoil. I'm a bit weary of
excavators though and their ability to do this. Again sometimes you need
another machine to work on finishing the same job. Very hard to say without
seeing the dam and what you want to do....

> <<If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
> usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.>>

<....>

> Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to
> develop sustainable engineered widths/depths>> How does one determine these flow
> rates which are probably contingent on rainfall off the steeply forested
> ridges at the back of the pond site? And what are sustainably engineered
> widths?

The resources listed will help as will your local soil conservation
authority. They should have flood flow rates listed regionally, and the
Meteorology people will have rainfall figures. These together with a
catchment area calculation (from the contour map) will allow you work out
the correct sized overflow and any other engineering features needing
consideration. The catchment runoff calculation is roughly as follows: (NB.
Metric is so much easier to work out all this stuff)

100 x A x R x Y litres

A= catchment area (hectares - 1ha = 2.47acres)
R= average annual rainfall (millimeters)
Y= runoff as a % of average annual rainfall

eg.  A=100ha; R=750mm; Y= 7.5%

100x100x750x7.5
=56 250 000 litres
=56.25Ml

>>>
I find it better to develop drainage depression into forestry/wetland systems 
so that we don't have water running over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment 
trapping. This is actually what is happening now as water flows through various 
drainage ways and channels to creek, wet land areas. Some areas have lots of 
crawfish...good sized. What happens when water dries up..do crawfish die out or 
can they survive in their holes?
>>>

If they're native ones like the yabbies we have here then they are likely to
be well equipped to cope with local seasonal climate fluctuations.

Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.>>  We won't need to take out
any trees in the pond area...but if it's desireable I have plenty of downed
trees, and limbs piled up nearby. Please describe how to use them
effectively

You need large trees preferably with durable timber so that they don't rot
too quick in the water. If you have a gentle enough entry slope then drag
them half in so that they are partially submerged. Again pictures would
help.

By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.

Cheers,

Yours and Growing,

Darren.


Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 19:06:36 +0930
From: "Pete@Kenton Range Tree Farm" <krtf@dove.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


Hi Frank, Darren, etc.
I'm Pete and I Lurk here a lot. Great thread. Dams (ponds) are one of the projects that
I have been extremely interested in
over the past few years here at Kenton Range Tree Farm. I have built some "Earth
Construction Water Storage Areas" here in
the Adelaide Hills South Australia, where we need to hold all the water we can (or are
allowed to by law).
Some basic stuff I've done can be found at  KRTF water pages
I would like to share some of my experiences with interested people, so In the next few
days I'll knock some things up and post
them in pdf on Lawrences upload file site if that's ok.

Just to make sure I do post some documents, I'll let you know what to expect.

     Island construction without wasting space
     Wall and bank stabilisation (with rocks and vegetation)
     Saddle dams (ponds) with drainage lines but no natural catchment

Darren, guess what you'll be doing late at night on your visit to South Australia!

Cheers, Pete
 Kenton Range Tree Farm Pages


From: "Australia Felix" <pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:03:12 +1000

Hi Pete,

Good to hear you've gone beyond lurking.....Yes we (!!) will be busy =
next won't we - not that going to bed early at Kenton Range is something =
I've ever done!! I'll be bringing over all of my Zip Discs to burn on =
your CD burner so we'll be able to sort out all of those dam and =
earthmoving files I have lurking away (Yes I have a box of CD's). When =
we catch up we'll have to upload all that stuff to Larry London's site - =
you'll probably know how to do it better than I. Also we can have a =
crack at cranking up some interactive web pc stuff for Franks Farm in =
readiness for Frank's scanning success !!=20

Also I have some timber samples to bring over. Sharn and I have been =
working up a few - including some Osage Orange (I'll get some cuttings =
tomorrow), Acacia pendula, Grevillea robusta, that weird Eucalyptus =
camaldulensis hybrid we found and a few others. I put a Stihl 038 on =
layby today so that I can get stuck right into the samples....

Talk to you tomorrow,

Cheers,

Darren.


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Lespedeza (was Re: Pond construction...)


On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Loren Davidson wrote:


> First I've heard of this one.  Besides erosion control, what's it good
> for?  What out-competes or preys on *it*, or how do you keep it in
> balance with the surrounding ecosystem?  And who carries the seed?

Shade, wildlife cover and food, biomass, hay for mulch, wind barrier for
lower-growing adjacent plants. Kudzu would probably overtake it
(literally). It needs good sun and won't do much in shade or part shade.
It takes it a long time to outcompete nearby plant communities so you can
just harvest it for compost or hay mulch to keep it in check. 
Any farm supply company or mail order seed house will carry it in small or
large quantities. You may need specific innoculant for initial plantings.
Soils that will grow pines and clover well will be most suitable for it.



Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:27:55 +0930
From: "Pete@Kenton Range Tree Farm" <krtf@dove.net.au>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


Hi Lawrence and group,
Just re-posting my url locations.
My web pages are really rough and desperately in need of a total makeover, and will get
it when time and experience permits.
Anyway they give a bit of an introduction as to what I've been doing for the last few
years.
Home page is at http://www.krtf.mtx.net
Water pages are accessible from there.

Pete Ravesteyn

Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


Lawrence F. London, Jr. -+|+- Venaura Farm
london@metalab.unc.edu   lflondon@worldnet.att.net
http://metalab.unc.edu/london, /permaculture, /ecolandtech
EcoLandTech -+|+- InterGarden -+|+- Permaculture
-
Frank asked for ideas on pond building. Maybe we can start a thread on
this, if anyone is interested. My feedback is below.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: FranksFarm@aol.com
> In center of pond area is small elevated island with a few trees that I'd 
> like to keep. How do you suggest we build this pond for wildlife, native
> plantings, irrigation etc.?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Get a copy of Mollison's A Designer's Manual
2) The pond's edge should be crenelated, i.e. undulating, zigzag,
ragged, ["lobular embayments" is a term Mollison uses on P.78 of DM] 
rather than a smooth continous curve. See pps. 481-483 of DM on
"pond configuration and edge effects".
3) Where runoff runs into pond construct a slightly graduated slope with
different sized pebbles, rocks, gravel, sand - this could become an
area where shellfish could breed - though usually flowing water is
necessary - just a thought - maybe divert flow from a creek in and out of
the pond
4) Construct shallow, boggy, swampy areas for breeding grounds for aquatic
creatures - plant reeds, cattails and other shallow water aquatic plants
there (will provide cover for wildlife) 
5) Make sure you construct areas where the water is shallow to semi
shallow with rocks, sandbars, etc. for turtles and amphibians, esp. frogs
6) You want to be sure you have fertile ground at water's edge - so you'll
get lush plant growth, weeds, plantings, etc. This is essential for
wildlife feeding, breeding and cover, and shade in summer and erosion
control, and nutrient catchment and filtering

LL


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:29:21 +1000
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

my major concerns from my pond experiences are:
1. an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed
2. not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have
proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises and
platypus)
so, i would build a small barrier that caught only large downpours and
allowed the continued flow through of daily or weekly rains.
3. trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.
our ducks are only suitable for the spring fed pond, they seem to have the
instinct to excete as soon as they get wet.


Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:37:32 EDT
From: FranksFarm@aol.com
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


G'day Darren,

Oops ...I hit the send now button before I finished the last post ...sorry!

<<This can only be
overcome if the dam is large enough for exit and entry batters from the
island to shore to bottom out to a level close to the maximum.>> Oh, oh..I'm 
afraid I'm out of my depth :) on this. Please enlighten me further.

<<What we prefer to do on dams less than 5 Ml is to make penisulas instead.>> 
What size is <<5 Ml>> ?  The total pond area is about 1 acre with a depth of 
8'3" in middle. also like gentle slopes along edges.  What do you think?

<<"pond configuration and edge effects".

Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget.>>  This has 
got to be a relatively low budget affair...or it's not going to happen.  So 
how do we control the costs?

<<We would use a dozer to make
most dams and they are capable of creating flowing linear edges.>>  Would a 
loader be better than a dozer? The xcavator would do the work...he 's done a 
lot of farm ponds. Charge is $70 an hr...claims he could dig it in a day? Is 
that possible? Seems like a lot of dirt, shaping, top soil moving etc. for an 
acre. I don't have a clue:)

<<If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.>>  ?????

<<we need to speculate all options though to return back to the
what's possible - a point often missed....>>  Agreed!

<<Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to develop
sustainable engineered widths/depths>> How does one determine these flow 
rates which are probably contingent on rainfall off the steeply forested 
ridges at the back of the pond site? And what are sustainably engineered 
widths?

<<I find it better to develop drainage
depression into forestry/wetland systems so that we don't have water running
over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment trapping,>>  This is actually what 
is happening now as water flows through various drainage ways and channels to 
creek, wet land areas. Some areas have lots of crawfish...good sized. What 
happens when water dries up..do crawfish die out or can they survive in their 
holes?

<<Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.>>  We won't need to take out any 
trees in the pond area...but if it's desireable I have plenty of downed 
trees, and limbs piled up nearby. Please describe how to use them effectively.

<<By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.>>  Yup:)

Great post, and insights Darren. Thanks. Look forward to executing this.  
When I get back to NY and learn how to use a scanner I'll scan some pictures 
for the group.

Look forward to continuing thread. Should be a great FAQ for anyone building 
a PC farm pond.  Best to all.   Cheers.  Frank




Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:03:07 EDT
From: FranksFarm@aol.com
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Hello April,

Thanks for the input.

<<an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed>>  Granted...but 
how?

<<not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises 
and
platypus)>> I'm not damming any creeks.  Just trying to catch the water off 
the ridges for multi-use at a later date.  Rather than have too much water in 
spring...not enough later.  Else it all flows out the creeks, off the 
property. 

<<trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.>>  hmm...I was contemplating a few ducks...should i skip 
'em?

Appreciate the feedback.   Cheerio  Frank


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 FranksFarm@aol.com wrote:

> Ok how about the construction of the dam and the overflow conduits?   Where 
> is the best place to put the dam...in center of lower end..or does it even 
> matter?

Regarding the outflow counduit - whatever design you use, the (possibly)
nutrient-rich overflow can be especially well utilized to irrigate and
fertilize a planting of lespedeza, through which it runs as it
dissipates over the back side of the dam. Lespedeza is an amazing plant. I
suggest it as a catchment and erosion control plant because it is very
drought resistant and will grow lavishly in hard rocky ground, the type of
fill that might be used in the dam itself. I can personally vouch for all
of the above. I have it growing (I planted it from seed a few years ago)
on a semi-steep embankment. Some of the plants are bushes, nearly 4 feet
tall with a huge spread. It benefits from nitrogen-rich runoff from the
field above which has big piles of compost. This planting has outcompeted
all nearby plants, Johnson grass, tall fescue, wild blackberries and
Japanese honeysuckle.


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 FranksFarm@aol.com wrote:

> I really don't intend the island to be very large...perhaps only 10*15' with 
> irregular gently sloping sides?  Is that size OK? would you need to make it 
> larger? for other reasons? 


Instead of the island, which Darren says might compromise the integrity
of the pond design you could build a few large floating rafts as planters
(hydroponic) for growing certain crops. Great for some wildlife wishing to
languish in the sun or have better vantage point for catching insects for
food. There is literature describing construction and maintenance of these
floating, harvestable gardens. 



Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:28:58 +0200
From: georg <georg@2012.org>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

>dissipates over the back side of the dam. Lespedeza is an amazing plant.

and if it lespedeza bicolor you can eat sprigtips, seeds and flowers, or
coppice every few years for excellent firewood


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:41:34 -0700
From: John Abdon <jabdon@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Here's where I'm brushing up. How about your links?

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/ Center for Aquatic and Invasive Plants,
University of Florida

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/database.html Aquatic, Wetland and Invasive Plant
Information Retrieval System, University of Florida

http://pclt.cis.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1992/5/92.05.07.x.html
Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute 'Pond Ecology' tutorial.

http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/biores/pond.htm Pond Ecology Resources.
(http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/intro.htm is slow loading)


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)


On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 FranksFarm@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/3/99 4:13:50 AM, london@metalab.unc.edu writes:
> 
> <<Lespedeza is an amazing plant.>>  Hmmm...is lespedeza also a nitrogen 
> fixing legume...can't recall for sure. Also can it be utilized as pasture for 
> cattle as part of a grazing mix?

It is a legume and fixes nitrogen, reseeds itself and becomes permanently
established this way and through root division. Very drought resistant,
shades ground well. Again, an amazing plant. I think the variety I planted
was Sericea Lespedeza. The farm supply companies usually have several
varieties, some shorter, for mowing and baleing.
  
> What kind od seed/variety did you plant? How much seed per acre? How did you 
> sow it? How do you plant it into existing pasture/weed ground?

Just broadcast it or drill it - make sure it gets planted at the right
depth, i.e. shallow, I think. It will take a while to become established
but will eventually outcompete nearly everything else. A very valuable
plant.
 
> With acres of ground to cover what do you feel is best way to disribute the 
> overflow to ensure good even coverage? Drip system would work for high $$ 
> market garden areas, but what about pasture and small orchards?

How about irrigation ditches and occasional flooding of areas planted to
crops or trees. I was actually thinking of having a long row of small
diameter concrete or galvanized culvert pipes embedded in the ground at
shallow depth on the top of the dam (level enough to drive over or pull
carts over) the overflow would then be distributed over a wide area to
dissipate over and irrigate/fertilize the erosion-control plantings on
the dam's slopes. Water channelling using a KeyLine plow could increase
the area the water reaches - this could be redone from time to time. Just
a thought.
  
> Any other values, benefits, products from lespedeza...also can it be 
> contained fairly easily. I wouldn't want it to over run the place like kudzu 
> or purple loose strife etc.

Nothing wrong with Kudzu. Homework for you, Frank:
How to integrate kudzu into various permaculture systems on one's
property, emphazise the maintenance aspects of kudzu plantings :-)

Here's something interesting on various cover crops used for grazing:
(I have more info on organic chicken feed and cover crops at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/cover-crops
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/livestock
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new-faqs


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:20:25 -0500
From: Greg & Lei Gunthorp <hey4hogs@kuntrynet.com>
Cc: sanet <sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: organic chicken feed recipes.

Ladino clover is a cool season pasture component that will run the highest
levels of protein and amino acid levels (protein building blocks) of any
pasture species.  It will easily bloat ruminants if it makes up too much
of a percentage of the pasture.  

I would strongly suggest you go to the University library and pick up some
old books on poultry production.  An old Morrison Feeds and Feeding, pre
1960, would be a good place to start.  I've got several old hog production
books around here.  I used to have an old poultry production book.  The
research has already been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of various
pasture species in non-ruminant animal production.  Ladino clover was
clearly the best choice.  It might be debatable now days whether alfalfa
should be the king of pastures for chickens and hogs because a lot more
money has been spent on grazing alfalfa species.

A good non-ruminant grazing program in the midwest can be built around
clovers, alfalfa, brassicas(primarily rape), and some vegetative grass. 
Percentage reduction in feed is going to depend a lot on the quality of
pasture grown.  I've got sows that I haven't fed since January.  They
gleaned corn fields all winter and are doing just fine now on pasture.  We
are getting so dry now that I'm going to have to start feeding them.

Good luck,
Greg Gunthorp
Free Range Hog Farmer


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond Construction, cont.


On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Claude Genest wrote:

> What are some ways you've found to deal with overflow?
> 
> Do you divert it to your gardens?  to a subsidiary holding area?

To small catchments (ditches where rich silt may accumulate) near or
beside your gardens, to very small ponds or pools with aquaculture
systems, to a wetland area or to s succession of smaller ponds
(see Mollison's Designer's Manual for details on this).
 
> I'm especially interested with working ducks into the mix.

See my post descibing using lespedeza for this (and many other plants, of
course). Some types of plantings in dry areas that exist as catchment and
for erosion control might be called constructed drylands for nutrient-rich
runoff or greywater remediation.

Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:51:37 -0400
From: EFMonaco <EFMonaco@compuserve.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed: more questions...

I don't know what others will say about this, but conventional wisdom says
that tree plantings will increase seepage because the roots penetrate the
dam core material.  Bamboo, however, spreads a mat laterally and isn't
supposed to penetrate deep enough to break apart the core.  No fruit for
the fish to eat; and I've never seen this actually done to know if it
works.  If it didn't, the bamboo would be tough to get out.

>I'll take advantage of this thread to ask about planting trees near pond
banks, when
making self-feed aquaculture systems ( for fruit-eating fish).  The  dam
areas get very
hot in the summer, and I wonder if one can safely plant trees on them , or
would this
increase  seepage?

<><>

I found these pages tonight in the rec.ponds newsgroup - have a look:

http://agpublications.tamu.edu/pubs/efish/srac.htm
Texas A&M University  
Southern Regional Aquaculture Center
United States Department of Agriculture
-
SRAC PUBLICATIONS 
SRAC 100 Site Selection of Levee-Type Fish Production Ponds
SRAC 101 Construction of Levee-Type Ponds for Fish Production
SRAC 102 Watershed Fish Production Ponds: Site Selection and
Construction
SRAC 103 Calculating Area and Volume of Ponds and Tanks
SRAC 104 Repairing Fish Pond Levees
SRAC 105 Renovating Leaky Ponds
SRAC 435 Water Gardens
SRAC 436 Bullfrog Culture
ribet
ribet
ribet   ribet
SRAC 460 Control of Clay Turbidity in Ponds


http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/fact.htm
Regional Aquaculture Center Fact Sheets
United States Department of Aquaculture
Cooperative State Research Education and Extension Service
Regional Aquaculture Center Program
-
# 103 - Calculating Area and Volume of Ponds and Tanks 
# 104 - Repairing Fish Pond Levees
# 105 - Renovating Leaky Ponds
# 100 - Site Selection of Levee-Type Fish Production Ponds
# 101 - Construction of Levee-Type Ponds for Fish Production





Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:07:42 EDT
From: FranksFarm@aol.com
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Hi Darren,

In a message dated 8/2/99 11:45:28 AM, pcorgbgo@bendigo.net.au writes:

<<that is unless you are only irrigating
a small area and have a dam that has a capacity that well exceeds this use.>> 
I hope that will be the case. I have too much water in spring running through 
and around pond area that I'd like to impound for other uses especially later 
in hot , dry summer months.

<<Another strategy is were we instruct clients to sensitively
harvest seedheads etc. of local riparian species and then simply scatter
them on the water, where eventually wave action will bring them back to
shore where they will naturally find their niche at the appropriate
water/dampness level.>> Good idea...what species would be recommended for 
southern KY ...USDA Zone 6?

<<With islands you nearly always compromise dam depth.>>  Not sure I follow 
this.  Please explain in detail. 

I really don't intend the island to be very large...perhaps only 10*15' with 
irregular gently sloping sides?  Is that size OK? would you need to make it 
larger? for other reasons? 


Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
To: permaculture <permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Lespedeza (was Re: Pond construction...)


On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Loren Davidson wrote:

> --- "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu> wrote:
>  
> >  Lespedeza is an amazing
> > plant. I
> > suggest it as a catchment and erosion control plant because it is
> > very
> > drought resistant and will grow lavishly in hard rocky ground, the
> > type of
> > fill that might be used in the dam itself.(...)  This planting has
> > outcompeted
> > all nearby plants, Johnson grass, tall fescue, wild blackberries and
> > Japanese honeysuckle.
> 
> First I've heard of this one.  Besides erosion control, what's it good
> for?  What out-competes or preys on *it*, or how do you keep it in
> balance with the surrounding ecosystem?  And who carries the seed?

Shade, wildlife cover and food, biomass, hay for mulch, wind barrier for
lower-growing adjacent plants. Kudzu would probably overtake it
(literally). It needs good sun and won't do much in shade or part shade.
It takes it a long time to outcompete nearby plant communities so you can
just harvest it for compost or hay mulch to keep it in check. 
Any farm supply company or mail order seed house will carry it in small or
large quantities. You may need specific innoculant for initial plantings.
Soils that will grow pines and clover well will be most suitable for it.



