Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: sci.agriculture.fruit

From: [email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein)
Date: 20 Jul 1996 12:32:52 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Dave Cornejo <[email-masked]> wrote:
>                      LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
>               unmoderated group sci.agriculture.fruit
>
>Newsgroups line:
>sci.agriculture.fruit	Agricultural techniques for fruit, berries & nuts.
>
>Proponent: Joel Clark <[email-masked]>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <[email-masked]>
>
>RATIONALE: sci.agriculture.fruit

Although this group proposal has good intentions and a good topic, not
enough thought has gone into the charter and the discussion of the group
was scant, at best. The proponent never entered the discussion, and suggestions
were not acknowledged. 

For example: what is the definition of fruit? Are both tomatoes and
apples (both botanically fruit) appropriate in this group's discussion?
Seemingly minute, this is but one of many loose ends that this proposal
never addressed.

For this group to be in the sci.agriculture.* hierarchy,
more work is necessary in planning the charter and more input, albeit
discussion, is needed.

I recommend a NO vote.

Adam
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_________________
Adam Finkelstein                    
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Joel Clark)
Date: 22 Jul 1996 20:17:11 GMT

>apples (both botanically fruit) appropriate in this group's discussion?

As proponent I did respond to several discussion items and incorporated
a couple of suggested changes into the Charter.  As to whether or not
apples and tomatoes are appropriate subjects, I would much rather see 
discussion of growing tomatoes or anything else than the flood of HOT SEX
and MAKE MONEY FAST posts we are currently subject to in alt.agriculture.fruit.

joel clark

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From: [email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein)
Date: 23 Jul 1996 11:14:16 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Joel Clark <[email-masked]> wrote:

>As to whether or not

Yes I would agree with you, although what's to stop these off topic posts in
sci.agriculture.fruit, if created?  But, my point is fairly clear. You have
rushed this proposal through, and the way the charter is now will only
cause problems later on. A newsgroup in the sci.* hierarchy should be well
thought through-- not only the rationale, but also the charter. The need
for this group is apparent. Making the group with a durable charter is as
important--otherwise you just have another "alt" style group within the
sci.* hierarchy.

This group is a good idea, but again, the proposed charter has problems
that need to be resolved. Why not do it right the first time?

Again, I recommend a NO vote.

Adam
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_________________
Adam Finkelstein                    
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Joel Clark)
Date: 24 Jul 1996 15:24:16 GMT

>that need to be resolved. Why not do it right the first time?

Since the discussion started around the 1st of May it hardly seems like 
this is being "rushed" through.  I believed I had responded to and 
or incorporated the discussion input.  I would have been happy to 
incorporate any reasonable suggestions from Adam on what the Charter
should have read during the discussion period (and I have no reason to 
believe his suggestions would not be reasonable).  I saw none. If as Adam 
hopes the vote fails, I hope Adam will propose a new Charter (and group)
that he considers acceptable.

As to what stops off-topic posts, as I said in the Rationale, there is
nothing that can entirely eliminate off-topic posts from Usenet newsgroups.
Even moderation is not 100% successful.  My experience indicates groups
in any of the big seven newsgroups are subject to considerable less
off-topic posts than the alt newsgroups.  alt.agriculture.fruit is 
generally around 50% trash.  Other newsgroups I read are less than 10%
totally off-topic.

joel clark

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From: [email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein)
Date: 27 Jul 1996 01:55:41 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Joel Clark <[email-masked]> wrote:
>If as Adam 

I'd be glad to help in anyway to get this group in the groove.
Adam
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_________________
Adam Finkelstein                    
[email-masked]