Subject: Formic acid

From: [email-masked] (Andy Nachbaur)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:54:00 GMT

*FYI* Crossed from the BEE-List because it is interesting.
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From: "Richard C. van Ouwerkerk" <[email-masked]>
Date:         Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:35:02 +0200
Subject:      Formic acid
Organization: Planet Internet

There is certainly a lot of talk about formic acid against varroa mites.
In Holland, as probably in many other countries the use of formic acid
is officially not yet allowed, but still we want to give it a try.

On a fair we found little containers that could be mounted inside a low
frame and hung between other frames in the brood area. They will hold
some 150 ml of fluid and are manufactured in Berlin.
The principle is that of a bottle filled with water and put upside down
in in a saucer to water the birds in your garden. In the cup you stick
some kind of paper wick, so the fluid will evaporate slowly over a
couple of weeks.

Interesting, but where do you buy formic acid? Thirty years ago it could
easily be bought in any drugstore for just about peanuts (as the dutch
say for a fart and three marbles), but today it seems like it has
disappeared from the face of the earth. Nobody wants to order it for you
and nobody even knows where from. We went to the farmacy here and also
in Belgium and it turned out they could order it, but the price would be
about $100 for a gallon!

Then all of a sudden an agricultural advisor turned up and got me ten
gallons for about $75. That's better!

The datasheet that comes with the formic acid applicator references an
paper by a German entomologist on the results.

Anybody tried it and can tell us if FA is any good? It is a nasty
skin etching stuff that ants use for chemical warfare, but it still
seems a lot more natural than Apistan to me.

73's

Richard
--
Richard C. van Ouwerkerk, arts     email [email-masked]
anesthesioloog                                    PE1KFM
Geerdinkhof 529           telephone & fax +31 20 6953246
1103 RH AMSTERDAM ZUIDOOST
The Netherlands
"Das ist wirklich groszartig, Herr Kollege, was sie da
geleistet haben"                                Einstein
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 þ QMPro 1.53 þ Essaim de Mai, Vache a Lait<A Swarm in May, a Milking Cow

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From: [email-masked] (Allen Dick)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 12:52:08 GMT

>some kind of paper wick, so the fluid will evaporate slowly over a

This is a slow release method.  Some studies have shown that although 
it is effective against mites, honey production suffers.

Canadian practice is to dilute formic to 65%, then soak the absorptive 
plastic encased pads that are used here in the bottom of meat packages 
at the grocers with 30 to 40 ml of the dilte acid.  The pads are about 
4-1/2 by 5 inches as I recall.

Using the pads eliminates most of the (dangerous)liquid acid 
transporting that is necessary in other methods.  All the necessary 
pads are placed in a pail overnight with the necessary amount of acid, 
and in the morning it is pretty well all soaked up.

These pads are them placed with tongs on the centre of the top bars of 
a two story standard hive.  After 7 days or so the pads are replaced 
with another such.  This is repaeted for a total of 4 or 5 treatments.

Hives are left open at the entrance, and apparently no problem if the 
bees are flying ot not.  Temperatures should allow for loose cluster 
to no cluster.

>Interesting, but where do you buy formic acid? 

It is a commercial chemical, available at the places with Van Waters & 
Rogers in Canada.  A hazardous good certificate is required and there 
are restrictions on transport.

This is the concentrate (80%?) and must be diluted for safety for the 
bees and the humans handling it. MAke sure you know the correct 
method.  Boiling acid is no fun.

Once diluted, it is still nasty stuff, if mishandled, but no worse 
than muriatic acid IMO.  Safety precautions are required when handling 
-- you don't want it in your eyes.  A leaky glove will result in skin 
loss fairly quickly -- without any warning pain -- you get the idea?

Good luck.

Regards

Allen

W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper                                    VE6CFK
Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta  Canada  T0M 1Y0
    Honey, Bees, & Art <http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~dicka/>

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From: Robert Allen Stevens <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 96 20:41:56 -0500

>method.  Boiling acid is no fun.
 
What is the correct method for diluting the formic.  By quick release method
I assume you mean that most of the formic vaporizes within a day or so of
placing the pads on the top bars. I don't understand how a large amount of
formic released in one day impacts the honey less than a small amount over
several days. Wouldn't a small amount released in the center of the brood
cluster be the most efficacious. My second brood chambers are mostly filled
with honey
this time of year.
By placing the pads on the top of the second chamber, I'm impacting the honey
more than the brood aren't I?

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From: Bill Fernihough <[email-masked]>
Date: 9 Sep 1996 05:19:03 GMT

Be very careful with the acid, wear gloves and a facemask, work upwind 
of it.
The idea is to release it slowly over a few days, which gives it the 
chance to get to mites which are on bees just being born.  You should 
treat about 5 times, about 3 days apart if using pads, that will cover 
most of the life cycle of Varroa.

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From: [email-masked] (Allen Dick)
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 11:39:39 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
   Robert Allen Stevens <[email-masked]> wrote:
>What is the correct method for diluting the formic. 

Acid into water, not the other way.  Wear goggles, and have baking 
soda around to use in case of spills.  Pour slowly and carefully.

> By quick release method
>formic released in one day impacts the honey (production) less than a 
small amount over
>cluster be the most efficacious.

In theory, perhaps, but the *bees* are continuously exposed to FA, 
too.  Not good for them.

Besides, what I am saying about reduced yields is from experimental 
results, not theory, so I really can't say.

> My second brood chambers are mostly filled
>with honey this time of year.

>By placing the pads on the top of the second chamber, I'm impacting 
the honey more than the brood aren't I?

Beats me.

Regards

Allen

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From: hoeger <[email-masked]>
Date: 7 Sep 1996 14:10:17 GMT

The correct way of diluting acids is to put the acid in the water 
and not the water in the acid.  Why? If you put the water in the 
acid, the waterdrops react with the acid, this means they 
evaporate with a little exlosion and make the acid boiling and 
splashing around. That´s dangerous!
 
Good luck
Ulli