Subject: Wasp Question

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:49:59 GMT

I realize this probably isn't the correct place for this question but
I can't think of another one.  I live in San Diego, Ca.  and own a
swimming pool.  The last two years (I've been here 18) wasps have
decided to use our (and neighbor's too) pool to get water for building
nests.  We have NO IDEA where these nests may be.  Is there any way to
keep the wasps away from the pool or diswade them?  They are very
terratorial and, every time we go to get in the water, they show up,
landing on it and being aggresive.  ANY suggestions helpful.  It's
almost as if I should move as we really can't enjoy the pool at all.
Thanks in advance for ANY suggestions.

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From: [email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein)
Date: 28 Apr 1996 02:43:43 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, P. & E. Withey <[email-masked]> wrote:
>nests.  

Hello. Can you describe what they look like?
Adam
-- 
_________________
Adam Finkelstein                    
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 15:43:02 GMT

>Hello. Can you describe what they look like?
Adam:
   Not sure what you mean.  I guess I'm assuming that they are using
the water to help build nests with as I haven't seen them.  If you
mean what to the wasps look like they look like the normal mean wasps
which, oddly enough, are light enough to be able to "float" on the
water to drink or collect the water or whatever they're doing.  At any
rate, they seem to feel that they own the pool.  There are never more
than 2-3 around and sometimes none to be seen until we get into the
pool.  However, they do make using the pool difficult as they show up
when we get in (2-3 of them sometimes a few more).

---

From: [email-masked] (Rita Pirone Noak)
Date: 29 Apr 1996 02:21:52 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey) says:
We had the same problem with my dad's pool on his ranch.  The red wasps 
would land on the pool and drink.  When my parents were away, my brother
and I would get our 22 cal. rifles and have target practice, till my dad
found a slug in the pool while cleaning it.

Chris

---

From: [email-masked] (Andy Nachbaur)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 21:41:00 GMT

P>From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
 >Subject: Re: Wasp Question

P>[email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein) wrote:

P>>In article <[email-masked]>, P. & E. Withey <[email-masked]> wrote

 >when we get in (2-3 of them sometimes a few more).

OK, now I understand more about the problem. There are several things
you can try.

1st. Bee's and I presume wasps, or mud dabbers need water, and mud if
you have mud daubers. So provide a alternative site for water if you
can even the bees would rather gather water for a small muddy pond
then drown in your pool trying to get a drink.

2nd. The chlorine stinks does it not, if you can smell it the bees can
and they are attracted to the chlorine in the water. Use the
non-chlorine stuff that does not smell or burn your eyes.

And yes when you get into the pool more bees will come because you
stir up the odors and they can smell it from farther away. The less
use the less bees, but of course one is one too many in some cases.

The mud daubers should not be a year around problem, but not knowing
your area I can not say how long they will be around. Here it is just
a few weeks most years.

                       Hope that helps. ttul Andy-

---
 þ QMPro 1.53 þ I am not young enough to know everything anymore

---

From: Steve Bambara <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Apr 1996 16:24:20 GMT

This is a fun topic so I'd like to add a comment or two.

> >the water to help build nests with as I haven't seen them.
 
Not a safe assumption.  Could they just be collecting water?

> If you

I think Adam is trying to determine if they are dark blue metallic
mud daubers which don't (normally) sting.  If they were in the pool
it would probably be to collect water to mix with soil to make mud.
 Wasps are not normally mean.  Most are not defensive.  The social wasps
will defend a nest, but I doubt would actively sting if just collecting
water.
	You know, you never said whether anyone has ever been stung.  Also,
have you ever thought of scooping them out and crushing them?  After
a while, it is bound to make a difference.

> >, they seem to feel that they own the pool.
 
You may have given them the pool, but I'm sure they don't own it.

> There are never more

What time of year is this a problem?  All year long in San Diego?

I also like Andy's suggestions below.
>                       Hope that helps. ttul Andy-

Lastly,
	Enjoy your pool.  Don't be afraid of it!

***************************************************************
Steve Bambara  Dept. of Entomology, Box 7626, Raleigh, NC 27695
[email-masked]    (919) 515-1661    fax (919) 515-7273

---

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:49:27 GMT

>Not a safe assumption.  Could they just be collecting water?

Don't really know but it doesn't really matter why they're there, they
just are.

>mud daubers which don't (normally) sting. 

No, they're not dark blue but a brownish-red sort-of color.
>a while, it is bound to make a difference.

Yes, one person stung in my pool, one in a neighbor's.  Possibly more
that I don't know of.  I have tried holding them under water with a
net.  It takes  over 6 minutes for them to drown!!!  have also crushed
them.  They just send back 2-3 more it seems.

>You may have given them the pool, but I'm sure they don't own it.

True.  But with their potential sting, they're more likely to win a
battle and, unfortunately they are also winning the war.

>What time of year is this a problem?  All year long in San Diego?

No, just in the Spring and Summer.  They started about 1-2 weeks ago
and it will continue through September (unfortunately most of the
swimming season for an unheated pool).

>>then drown in your pool trying to get a drink.

I've tried this too.  However, they still land in the pool to drink
instead of the other supply for some reason.  They don't drown is the
odd thing.  They are quite capable of "sitting" on top of the water to
drink and than fly away.  They don't sink!
>>non-chlorine stuff that does not smell or burn your eyes.

Doesn't seem to matter.  I have puposly let the cholrine get very low
but they still came back.  My guess is that they see the water
disturbed when we get in. Also, not sure I know of a non-chlorine
which doesn't have a odor except a VERY expensive process which
generates Ozone.

>	Enjoy your pool.  Don't be afraid of it!

Not afraid of the pool.  Just the %^&#$@!! wasps.

---

From: [email-masked] (Andy Nachbaur)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:52:00 GMT

>Subject: Wasp Question

P>I realize this probably isn't the correct place for this question but
 >Thanks in advance for ANY suggestions.

Now here is some help and if it does not work or you need more
information please write the author as he is almost in your area
and a real nice guy.
                        ttul Andy-

YELLOW JACKET CONTROL

Yellow jackets (Vespula spp. - colonial wasps), can pose a severe problem
for people when these wasps aggressively seek food.  (Remember, though,
yellow jackets do pollinate plants, such as squash, and dispose of waste
matter and thus are not all bad.)

Early in the season meat is preferred; later they focus more on sweets.
Normally, they are an annual species, with colonies started in the spring
of each year by a single mated and overwintered queen.  As the season
progresses, nest sizes grow and can contain thousands of individuals by
late summer or fall.  In mild climates colonies can even overwinter.
Effective control measures vary according to the circumstances.

1)  At eating areas

In a backyard, wasps can be kept under control by diligent use of traps
(next section).  Public picnic areas, however, have wasps already locked
into the readily available food supply (messy previous picnickers).  Bring
along a fly swatter and eliminate the early arrivals - other wasps are then
not recruited.  Fortunately, individuals of many yellow jacket species are
not aggressive when not near their nest.

Wasps do not hesitate to go into soft drink cans or bottles, posing a
problem for anyone not paying sufficient attention to their activities
before taking another swallow.  Neither do they hesitate to ride along on a
meat sandwich as it is put into one's mouth.  Watch out, also, for wasps
attracted to meat covered hands, fingers, or utensils.

If one places an effective trap (next section) 20-30 feet upwind from the
picnic table, the foraging wasps, when shooed away by picnickers, continue
to go upwind past the picnic table and end up in the trap .

2)  Remote treatment

Yellow jacket bait traps have been used more than a century, with one basic
characteristic in design:  Wasps will fly into a funnel (sometimes quite
small) to get at the bait provided and then cannot get out of the
transparent or translucent enclosure that incorporates the funnel.

One can buy any variety of ready-made traps with a wide range of
effectiveness.  The following two companies (among others) have produced
successful traps:  Seabright Laboratories, 4026 Harlan Street, Emeryville,
CA  94608, (800) 284-7363 or (415) 655-3126;  Sterling International, Inc.,
P.O. Box 220, Liberty Lake, WA  99019, (800) 666-6766 [FAX: (509)
928-7313].

These commercial traps can become clogged with yellow jackets in a
relatively short time during severe infestations, and then one must remove
them.  The problem then arises that live wasps may still be inside and pose
a threat.  In that case, one can place the trap in a freezer or an ice
chest, wait until the cold immobilizes them, and then empty the trap.
Alternatively, the trap can be placed in a paper or plastic bag just large
enough to contain it.  One can then spray a very small amount of electronic
parts cleaner (e.g., Electric Parts Cleaner, CRC, Warminster, PA 18974;
(215) 674-4300; Electric Motor Cleaner, Berryman, Arlington, TX  76011),
one that contains 1-1-1 Trichloroethane, into the bag and close tightly for
a few minutes.

One can also construct a simple and safe trap at virtually no cost - an
example follows.  Start with a one gallon translucent milk bottle.  With a
razor blade, cut a couple of small slits downward from one point (three
quarter inch across at the bottom), a little more than halfway up the
sides.  Bend the point so formed inward.  Fashion part of a wire coat
hanger into a hook at the bottom and thread it through a small hole
punctured into the cap so that the hook will be down about halfway to the
bottom of the bottle when inserted.  Bend the top of the coat hanger piece
so that it can be suspended from the lid.

Fill the bottle about one-third full of soapy water.  Then pierce a small
piece of turkey ham, salami, or ham (small enough to go through the bottle
opening) with the hook and put the lid, hook, and meat in place in the
bottle's neck.  Hang the bottle in a tree or bush upwind from the area
where wasps are not wanted.

You might also dig a hole and place the bottle in the ground so the
dowiwind opening is at ground level (wasps often search along the ground
for food).  If no gallon bottles are available, a one-liter transparent
soft drink bottle should suffice.

3)  Nest location known (perhaps with more than one entrance)

If one knows the location of a ground nesting colony (e.g., Vespula
pennsylvanica), the entire colony can be exterminated quite easily by using
nothing more than soapy water.  Take care, though, because these wasps are
highly defensive of their nest, usually allowing one to get no closer than
about 10 feet before attacking.  Some people prefer to treat the colony at
dawn or late evening, when activity at the entrance is less than in
mid-day.

Fill an adjustable nozzle spray bottle with water, add one level tablespoon
of liquid detergent, and shake.  Set the spray nozzle on stream, approach
>from  downwind (also from downslope or protected by bushes, if possible),
and spray wasps (guards as well as departing and returning individuals) at
the nest entrance as fast as possible from a distance of 10-15 feet
(practice at a target first to improve aim).  Wear full protection,
including a beekeeper hat and veil, if possible.

Once all activity at the entrance has ceased, pour a bucket of soapy water
into the ground through one of the entrances and block all entrances with a
shovelful or two of dirt.

4)  A take home poison

When wasp infestations become severe, you may wish to use stronger
measures.  To reduce their numbers, one can lace a desired food with poison
after yellow jackets become committed to that source of food.  With this
method, timing and procedure are somewhat critical.

Expose marauding wasps to canned cat food, such as a shrimp and tuna
mixture.  Allow the number of foragers to build up into a "feeding frenzy."
Then provide a second dish alongside the first, but one laced with a take
home poison.  Orthene (20 drops per small can of cat food)  or KNOX OUT
(trade name for a micro-encapsulated diazinon product; one-half teaspoon
per can).  Don't attempt to use straight diazinon, or the laced food will
be rejected).

Adrian M. Wenner
Prof. Emeritus (Natural History)
Univ. of Calif., Santa Barbara
Santa Barbara, CA  93106
[email-masked]

***************************************************************
* Adrian Wenner        E-Mail   [email-masked]  *
* Department of Biology        Office Phone    (805) 893-2838 *
* University of California     Lab Phone       (805) 893-2838 *
* Santa Barbara, CA  93106     FAX             (805) 893-4724 *
***************************************************************

---
 þ QMPro 1.53 þ Essaim de Mai, Vache a Lait<A Swarm in May, a Milking Cow

---

From: Larry Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:35:42 -0400

Andy Nachbaur wrote:

> and they are attracted to the chlorine in the water.

I think this is unlikely - more probably there is not _enough_ chlorine
in the water.  The recommended level of chlorine for a swimming pool
should be enough to do in any bee inclined to drink it, thereby quickly
removing _that_ gene from the pool, so to speak.  However, it is very
likely that if you don't have _enough_ chlorine in the pool, then not
only will the water be potable for bees, but you will get a powerful
odor of "chlorine" - which is actually choramines formed by the reaction
of chlorine and pollutants in the water, it smells dreadful and provides
absolutely no protection in the pool.  A properly chlorinated pool has
no detectable odor.  You need at least 1 ppm of _free_ chlorine.  I
think that will solve the bee problem.  If the water is cloudly at all,
use a clarifier, and try to keep a cover on the pool during the day and
at whenever you run the circulator - dirt in the water, sunlight, and
agitation will all tend to eliminate the free chlorine, and will form
smelly chloramines.

---

From: Graham & Annie Law <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:50:33 +0100

>drink and than fly away.  They don't sink!

Is is practical to add a little liquid soap to your pool?, this should 
break the surface tension and the litle buggers should drown.  Presumbly
wasps are like bees and the returning wasp passes the location of your
pool on to other wasps.  Once you have drowned the insects that like
your pool the problem should deminish.
        Tip.. don't swim with your mouth open.

Graham Law
[email-masked]

Winning the rat race still makes you a rat.

---

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 01:21:39 GMT

>agitation will all tend to eliminate the free chlorine, and will form

Wish you were right on this too, but experience shows otherwise.  I
have tried normal chlorination and super chlorination (when normally
called for anyway to shock the pool).  Wassps don't seem to care one
bit either way!

---

From: [email-masked] (CAMILLIUS LAY 19870601)
Date: 30 Apr 1996 17:50:02 GMT

A few more points about the wasps-in-the-pool thread:

1) Traps are likely to be your best bet.  Grenadine syrup is 
highly attractive to wasps and yellowjackets.  I'd bet, BTW,
that your wasps are some variety of Polistes, the ones that 
build paper nests under eaves, under picnic tables, and
in my personal experience, inside one's boat, leading to 
some interesting decision-making once one is upon the water...
Use lots of traps, clean them out frequently, and realize
that you're going to be managing the population to minimize
the risk; you're probably not going to be able to eliminate
the problem.  Also, check around your property and see if 
there are any nests that could be the source of the pool-
invaders.

2) Mixing pesticides with food to make your own bait is a 
bad BAD _BAD_ idea.  It's also illegal.  There are several 
possible less-than-desireable outcomes (and yes, I know that USDA 
has a special use registration to use Orthene in sugar water
to control feral Africanized bees.  That's not what we're talking
about, here.)  You could poison the neighbor's cat, the neighbor's
dog, animals or birds of various kinds with the cat-food stunt.
The Orthene-in-sugar-water trick is highly effective on bees, and
may get anything else that drinks the water.  If I were an attorney
I'd love to have someone bring me a beloved-family-pet-dead-from-an-
illegal-use-of-deadly-pesticides case.  I've seen a couple of these
>from  my perspective as a pesticide regulator, and it's plumb amazing
how the value of an animal increases as it approaches room temperature.
The orthene trick will clean your neighborhood out of bees, also.
It's hard to prove enough to be able to prosecute, but it sure makes
for some ugly scenes.

Try the bait.  And scout for the nests and get rid of them.  Good
luck!
Regards,
Cam Lay
Sr. Pesticide Regulatory Specialist
Clemson University Dept. of Pesticide Regulation
Credentials provided only to establish credibility; I am not speaking
for Clemson University or the DPR.

---

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 15:05:52 GMT

A little additional information may help in this discussion: I just
used the CD-Rom encyclopedia to try to determine the type of Wasp
here.  I'm pretty sure it's a "Paper Wasp" from the color and shape.
Does this help any?  Do we know if the habits of the Yellow Jacket
(mentioned in the previous post) are at all similiar to the Paper Wasp
(or, if you will vice versa)?  Thx.  I really appreciate all of the
helpfuul comments here.

---

From: Steve Bambara <[email-masked]>
Date: 1 May 1996 12:38:50 GMT

More on wasps:

	I think Cam had a good reply about trying the grenadine bait and 
searching for nearby nests.  This may make a dent in the population.
Baits works better on the West Coast.
Stay away from the poison baits.

Andy made some good comments about Chlorine, but just because we
can't smell something, doesn't mean the insects can't either.

There was a nice thought about adding surfactant.  It might be a good
idea in a bird bath, but can one place it in a pool?  I was wondering
the same thing.  

One reason this discussion has probably gone on this long is that
we are all speculating like crazy.  We still don't have enough facts.
It is important to know why the insects are visiting the water.  We
still don't even know what the insect is!  Peter, my advice here is:

COLLECT ONE OR TWO WASPS AND TAKE THEM TO AN ENTOMOLOGIST, OR YOUR
COUNTY COOPERATIVE EXTENSION AGENT AND FIND OUT EXACTLY WHICH INSECT
YOU HAVE.  Then you might have better suggestions.  Eric Mussen is
at UC Davis.  If you want his address and number email me 'cause I'd
rather not post someone else's address on the net.  
Let us know what you find out.

---

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:50:06 GMT

[email-masked] (Andy Nachbaur) wrote:

--- stuff deleted ---

>for people when these wasps aggressively seek food.  

--- etc ---

Question however: From my description of what I have in the back yard
(color is mostly brownish red with NO yellow) are they yellow jackets
or something else?  And, if something else, do their habits probably
parallel the colonial wasp?

---

From: [email-masked] (Karl Altenburg)
Date: 1 May 1996 13:12:55 GMT

Graham & Annie Law ([email-masked]) wrote:
: >drink and than fly away.  They don't sink!

: Is is practical to add a little liquid soap to your pool?, this should 
: break the surface tension and the litle buggers should drown.  Presumbly
: wasps are like bees and the returning wasp passes the location of your
: pool on to other wasps.  Once you have drowned the insects that like
: your pool the problem should deminish.

There's little evidence that social wasps such as paper wasps (Polistes 
spp.) or yellowjackets (Vespula/Dolichovespula spp.) conduct 
recruitment.  Each wasp seeks out food/water/wood on its own.

BTW, a wasp that floats on water doesn't sound like a yellowjacket, maybe 
a paper wasp?

--
Karl R Altenburg				[email-masked]
North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND  58105

All things are artificial, for nature is the art of God.  SIR THOMAS BROWNE

---

From: [email-masked] (P. & E. Withey)
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 00:51:43 GMT

>still don't even know what the insect is!  Peter, my advice here is:

Thanks.  After looking at all kinds of pictures I'm 99% sure these are
what is generically called "Paper Wasps".  They're the only ones which
come even close to what they look like.  However, I will follow your
suggestion when I can.  I REALLY appreciate the response and interest
on this.  I really didn't think I stood a ghost of a chance getting
any replies at all even though the NET is always (or usually anywya0
friendly with support.

---

From: Ben Syversen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 14:39:50 -0700

I don't know much about wasps, but maybe you should try tracking a 
beeline, like it says in other articles in this newsgroup, and then 
kiling the nests.