Subject: home-made driftwood & homebrewing blackwater, thoughts & ideas

From: popabear <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:39:22 -0500

Greetings to all !

In response to a post I made a couple of days ago I got about a dozen
replies w/ ideas & thoughts about making driftwood for use in the home
freshwater aquaruim.

Thank you everybody for your input ... please keep posting & EMailing
those comments !

I am now expanding the discussion to include "homebrewing" blackwater
extract since that very interesting idea sprung up as a by-product of
soaking hardwoods to waterlog them enough to sink naturally in a tank.

I've also expanded the cross-posting of this thread to try to include
all ng's with interest & expertise to try and troll out as much folklore
& experience on the subject as possible.  If you've got comments, please
add them, especially if you're aware of any WWWeb links that deal with
these subjects.

Current consensus is that boiling may be the best solution.  I'm
probably gonna do the salt soak anyway & then boil the pieces that I can
stuff into a pot.  It was also suggested that a bleach solution be used,
which is undesireable in my case for two reasons :  I want my wood to
remain as dark as possible and I'm not sure how long I'd have to soak my
waterlogged roots in a dechlorinator to prevent any chlorine release
later on.

The current unanswered questions are :

--  what tree species are potentially toxic (and should therefore be
avoided or require special treatment)

--  what tree species have been used successfully (please specify the
parts used & the condition they were in when introduced to your tank)

--  what tree species may potentially be beneficial (look for another
cross-post on this subject in the near future to include other ng's that
tap herbal & agricultural experience)

--  how aged must wood for this use be (how long should it be dead,
sun-dried, soaked, etc. before it is safe for use in the severely
restricted ecosystem of the home aquarium)

--  has anyone attempted to manufacture blackwater extract from tree
parts (or anything else, for that matter)

--  if so, please post your recipe, name materiels & species, parts
used, notes on effects on your tanks/fish, and any references that
you're aware of

I intend to periodically post results on these experiments as
significant results develop.  Being a scientist (of sorts) I am taking
notes and will attempt to condense them into a FAQ-style document.

Again, I'd like to encourage many responses to this thread to make the
information as complete as possible (AND in a manner timely to my needs
!   :)

Thanks again everybody !  Be seeing you around the 'Net,  and have a
very Merry Holidays .

popabear

Following is a post of some private EMail exchanged w/ Sinthia (or is it
Ray ?  ;%)   that was generated by my original post.  It has been
lightly edited & digested by a spellchecker for public display.

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 11:30:32 -0800
From: Ray or Sinthia Fagan <[email-masked]>
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

popabear <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>  When the pet stores are charging $15-20 US for an ~12" 
>piece of "driftwood," well, it's time to improvise.  Especially 
>since I need a fair supply for two tanks (a 90 and a 44 pent).

>  Would any of you kind souls out there please relate 
>_experiences_ you have had manufacturing your own driftwood for 
>use in a freshwater aquarium (it will be soft, acid water w/ 
>live plants).

>  Problem :  I have noticed some green lichen (possibly a 
>fungus ?) growing on the root bark.  If I can determine it's 
>harmless, it would actually look pretty cool in the tank.

>  However, it brings to mind that I probably want to sterilize 
>these somehow.  Severe chemistry/herbicides/fungicides are not 
>desired and are generally more expensive than I have resources 
>for.

We found a nice log at a local park about 2 feet long which is in our 30
gallon tank.  To sterilize it we boiled it in a large pot on the stove. 
We had to turn it over to make sure the water reached all surface
areas.  Boiling water is excellent for sterilizing most additions to the
aquarium as it will kill most everything except, even spores if you boil
it long enough.  This is a cheap method that will not introduce
chemicals into your tank.  Another method we use for sterilizing
aquarium equipment is running nets, etc. through the dishwasher. They
make good sterilizers. This would work for small pieces of roots or
wood. 

>  What I'm thinking about doing is to soak these root segments 
>in a very strong rock salt solution for, oh, a week or three and 
>then soak them for a couple days in fresh water again to rinse 
>out the worst of the salt.  I figure any residual salt will 
>release slowly in the tank, and be trace & harmless for what time 
>it is present.

This seems like it would work to remove any bacteria, etc., but residual
salt might leach out into the water. I don't know how you would check
the salt content-- maybe a specific gravity tester? (Medical or
scientific supply house) 

>  One of my primary questions is :  what is the best/safest 
>species of tree(s) to be using ?  Will an oak (or others) 
>release toxins into the water ?  Would something like hickory, 
>dogwood, or pecan be more (or less) desirable ?

Most trees have tannic acid which is what is desired to acidify the
water, oak is particularly good at this. Possible bad choices: Willow
probably should be avoided because it might release salycic acid (this
may be spelled wrong, but it is the active ingredient in historical
aspirin) [sis -- seems to be spelled ‘silicic'].  Pine and evergreens
have a lot of oil resin which could get in the water. It seems like I
remember that dogwood contains some chemical that has medicinal use. 
Hickory may be too hard for rasping fish like Farlowellas.  

The large log we used really made the tank water DARK, almost the color
of tea, but it did induce our mated pair of angels to spawn for the
first time!  After the first month or so the very dark color went away,
with water changes, and it now is the color a regular peat-filtered
tank.  

Hope this helps,   Ray and Sinthia  

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From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: making driftwood
To: [email-masked] (Ray or Sinthia Fagan)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:09:50 -0500 (EST)

Thanks much for the reply !

I had actually considered boiling, but I just don't have a pot at the
moment that most of the pieces would fit in ... although an  interesting
thought to boil one half and then turn it over for the other.  Hmmmmmm 
...

Some questions/thoughts :

======================================

Ray or Sinthia Fagan wrote:
> 
>  We found a nice log at a local park about 2 feet long which 
>is in our 30 gallon tank.  To sterilize it we boiled it in a 
>large pot on the stove.  

What kind did you use ?  I'm currently running the experiment with oak.

> Another method we use for sterilizing aquarium equipment is 
>running nets, etc. through the dishwasher. They make good 
>sterilizers.  This would work for small pieces of roots or 
>wood. 

I love this idea.  I assume without soap, yah (for wood) ?  My only
concern with some types of wood would be pieces of it falling off and
blocking the drain, but that can be a judgement call case by case.

> This seems like it would work to remove any bacteria, etc., 
>but residual salt might leach out into the water. I don't 
>know how you would check the salt content-- maybe a specific 
>gravity tester? (Medical or scientific supply house) 

Yes, but I think that this will be of little concern.  One, I already
use some amounts of rock salt in my tanks (concentration varies
depending on species present), and two, I will soak these pieces in
fresh water for a couple of days before they go in the tanks.  Now, I'll
probably boil them also.  Residual salt should be almost beyond
detection, and certainly below the levels I already use.

I'm planning on going forward with the salt idea for another reason now,
too :  I think that it will help to season & toughen the wood.  It's
only a theory at this point, but I suspect that a saline soak will help
to draw out some of the green sap chemistry and will have an effect
similar to tanning.

> Most trees have tannic acid which is what is desired to 
>acidify the water, oak is particularly good at this. 

Yes, this I was aware of.  My greater concern was other things that
might come out of relatively green wood.  I haven't found anything to
worry about, yet ...

> Possible bad choices: Willow probably should be avoided 
>because it might release silicic acid 

Very interesting.  I probably wouldn't have tried willow for other
reasons, but this is exactly the type of info I was "fishing" for.

> Pine and evergreens have a lot of oil resin which could 
>get in  the water. 

Also, yes.  Didn't like the idea of introducing terpentines [sic --
appears to be ‘turpentines'] into my tanks at all !  I'm not at all sure
that anybody in the tank would appreciate munching on little sap
globules, either (let alone cleaning them out of my filters !).

> It seems like I remember that dogwood contains some 
>chemical  that has medicinal use.  

This intrigues me in that it may actually be beneficial like, say, it is
a bactericide or fungus inhibitor.  But, again, thanks.  I'll put
dogwood on my "approach with caution" list.

> Hickory may be too hard for rasping fish like Farlowellas.  

Naw ... they'll just consider it a challenge   ;)   :)

> The large log we used really made the tank water DARK, 
>almost the color  of tea, but it did induce our mated pair 
>of angels to spawn for the first  time!  

This is exactly one of the reasons I'm interested in trying this
experiment.  The root pieces I've already got have soaked for a couple
of weeks with a water change & a couple of scrubbing sessions to get rid
of loose stuff & mud.  The "clean" roots have turned the water almost
blood red/black.  I've actually been concerned that I'll lose the
beneficial "blackwater" component.  

I couldn't do it this time around, but later on I'm thinking of saving
the water from the first two soaks and distilling it down to make a
homebrewed blackwater extract.  This is another reason I'm looking at
several tree types ... wondering what combination will give me a good
recipe.  When I go to Pennsylvania to visit my folks for Christmas, I
know where I can get some black walnut roots & branches.  *That* should
make some black water !

Hmmm .. now that I consider it, I think I may just collect a bunch of
wood chips from a several hardwoods and soak them for the extract.  Very
interesting thought ...

> Hope this helps, 

Yes -- thank you very much for your time and comments.  I'm planning on
posting the results of this experiment to the same ng's I asked this
question in, but I'll make sure you get an EMail copy of them too.  In
fact, do you mind if I post this publicly ?  I'm trying to generate as
much interest as possible and maybe drag a few other folks into
commenting on this idea.

If anything else comes to mind, please don't hesitate to write, &/or
post it to the aquaria groups.

Thanks again, & Happy Holidays to ya'll ...

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:20:59 -0600 (CST)
To: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked] (Ray or Sinthia Fagan)
Subject: Re: making driftwood

Hi Gardner!

>  What kind did you use ?  I'm currently running the experiment 
>with oak.

We really have no idea.  Maybe sycamore.  We visited the park often and
it had been in the water for a several months so we assumed that
anything "bad" would have leached out by this time.  We were really
interested in this particular piece of wood for the shape.  Part of both
sides had been hollowed out so that when it was placed in the aquarium
it made an underwater "bridge".  It is an ideal hiding place for shy
fish like our pleco.   

>  I love this idea.  I assume without soap, yah (for wood) ?  
>My only concern with some types of wood would be pieces of it 
>falling off and blocking the drain, but that can be a 
>judgement call case by case.

Absolutely no soap!  (I once worked in an office where someone cleaned
the outside of an aquarium with soap, the fish died horribly.) Small
pieces of wood could fall into the heating element also.  We use the
dishwasher for nets, hoses, and any containers with no problem.  If the
piece of wood is questionable you could use the boiling method instead. 

>>  It seems like I remember that dogwood contains some 
>>chemical that has medicinal use.  
>
>  This intrigues me in that it may actually be beneficial like, 
>say, it is a bactericide or fungus inhibitor.  But, again, 
>thanks.  I'll put dogwood on my "approach with caution" list.

The beneficial qualities are very interesting.  If I come across any
more noteworthy facts on tree wood I'll let you know.

>  This is exactly one of the reasons I'm interested in trying 
>this experiment.  The root pieces I've already got have soaked 
>for a couple of weeks with a water change & a couple of 
>scrubbing sessions to get rid of loose stuff & mud.  The "clean" 
>roots have turned the water almost blood red/black.  I've actually 
>been concerned that I'll lose the beneficial "blackwater" 
>component.  

You may be right about losing some of the "blackwater" stuff.  Our log
has been in the tank for over six months and it still will change the
color of the water, but the amount of color change has gone down
drastically.

>  I couldn't do it this time around, but later on I'm thinking 
>of saving the water from the first two soaks and distilling it 
>down to make a homebrewed blackwater extract.  This is another 
>reason I'm looking at several tree types ... wondering what 
>combination will give me a good recipe.  When I go to Pennsylvania 
>to visit my folks for Christmas, I know where I can get some black 
>walnut roots & branches.  *That* should make some black water !

If it works let us know.  The  current blackwater extract that is sold
in stores gets pulled out by filters and is a bit expensive for us
college students.  However, blackwater tablets, which are more difficult
to find work better.  We would be interested in the homemade recipe.  we
already use garden peat in our filters instead of the expensive packaged
stuff.

Right now we have over angel 300 fry in our living room.  We have set up
two paring tanks for our some of our larger angels (7 mo. old) and some
other varieties, like blacklace, we want to try cross breeding with
them. In a few months we are going to try to "murk" up the water with
peat, etc. so they will pair off.  Really dark blackwater is the best
way to induce spawning I've seen, thought elevated temp helps.

> Yes -- thank you very much for your time and comments.  I'm 
>planning on posting the results of this experiment to the same 
>ng's I asked this question in, but I'll make sure you get an EMail 
>copy of them too.  In fact, do you mind if I post this publicly ?  
>I'm trying to generate as much interest as possible and maybe drag 
>a few other folks into commenting on this idea.

Don't mind at all. And please send any info you come across.

>Thanks again, & Happy Holidays to ya'll ...
>
Happy Holidays to you and yours,   Ray and Sinthia Fagan

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From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: making driftwood
To: [email-masked] (Ray or Sinthia Fagan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:42:05 -0500 (EST)

Hey, and thanks again for your time.

When I sent this out last night, your post hadn't yet appeared in the
ng's, so I'll be reposting most of these last two exchanges shortly to
try & troll out some more comments from other readers.

===========================

Ray or Sinthia Fagan wrote:
> 
> We really have no idea.  Maybe sycamore.  We visited the 
>park often and it had been in the water for a several months 
>so we assumed that anything "bad" would have leached out by 
>this time.  

Very interesting.  From my experiences landscaping, I would have
considered sycamore to be too 'soft' & to deteriorate rapidly ... and I
sure wouldn't have expected it to darken up the water as severely as
you've indicated.  Good to know you're having satisfactory experiences
with it.

> The beneficial qualities are very interesting.  If I come 
>across any more noteworthy facts on tree wood I'll let you 
>know. 

I'm gonna see if I can troll up a response on this subject in
alt.folklore.herbs, and maybe another relevant group or two if I can
locate them rapidly.  Seems to me that hawthorn & sassafras may be other
likely candidates.

> You may be right about losing some of the "blackwater" stuff.  
>Our log has been in the tank for over six months and it still 
>will change the color of the water, but the amount of color 
>change has gone down drastically. 

yuh ... but I'm wondering just how long that log was soaking in the park
before you picked it up ?  Seems that a fresh piece of tree/root may
have a productive lifespan of up to a year.  I am taking notes.

> If it works let us know.  

As I'd mentioned, I'll post to ng's & copy to you as I come across
'interesting' results.

> The  current blackwater extract that is sold in stores gets 
>pulled out by filters and is a bit expensive for us college 
>students.  

Hmmmm .. do you know what filter component is pulling the extract ?  The
carbon ? or something else ?  

I can RELATE to being a broke college student addicted to this hobby !!

> In a few months we are going to try to "murk" up the water 
>with peat, etc. so they will pair off.  Really dark blackwater 
>is the best way to induce spawning

Seems you may want to consider finding a small branch of the same wood
you're already using & plop it in the tank.  If you're getting
reproducible results this would be welcome information in the ng's ...
would also seem a good bet this works well for discus & other
hard-to-spawn blackwater species.

Peace, folks.

  --  gardner  ____________________^____________________
                 _________________/ \_________________
Gardner  L.  Prabel               | |            Mental Aberration is
[email-masked]           | |                    a State of
Grace.
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/   \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            --=-==-+-==-=--
           Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 01:01:35 GMT

Hello all,
	My recipe for blackwater. Buy some peat from the garden store (any
brand). Place about an inch deep in a glass bowl and boil until the water
turns blackish-brown. I then mix this extract with store bought
demineralized water (I do not own an RO unit) or melted snow. Try to sift
out as much of the remaining peat moss after boiling as you can as it
clogs up filters horribly. Then do a water change and replace the old
water with the extract. The biggest problem with this method is storing
the blackwater extract because my water is very hard and alkaline so I
have to use snow or demineralized water. If you have soft water already
you may be able to just add the extract during a water change.
	Hope this helps,
			-Shane

Courage is the complement of fear.
A man who is fearless cannot be courageous.
(He is also a fool)

---

From: popabear <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:44:11 -0500

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
>         My recipe for blackwater. Buy some peat from the garden 
> store (any brand). Place about an inch deep in a glass bowl and 
> boil until the water turns blackish-brown. 

I've tried similar before, but rather than a hard boil, I bring 
the water to a boil and then turn it down to a simmer & then place 
the peat in it for something like thirty minutes with a lid on it.  
I use about a cup of peat in about a gallon (US) of water.

I later decided to just use peat filtration in my tanks, but have 
kept this on "the back burner," so to speak, for if I ever wanted 
to spike the blackwater componant.

> Try to sift
> out as much of the remaining peat moss after boiling as you can 
> as it clogs up filters horribly. 

By Gawd, this *is* a necessary step !  I've an untried theory on 
this :  take out your window screen and sift off the fines before 
boiling &/or introducing the peat into a tank as a filter media.  
May not eliminate the problem, but it sure should cut it back 
drastically.

Experiment #217 to evaluate.  Look for the post (eventually  :)  ;)

> The biggest problem with this method is storing
> the blackwater extract because my water is very hard and alkaline 
> so I have to use snow or demineralized water. 

Interesting comment.  I'm not sure hard, alkaline water is a 
storage problem in and of itself.  Do you mean that storage of your 
excess extract from a 'homebrewing' event with snowmelt has been a 
problem ?  What exact problem(s) are you seeing ?  Bacterial growth, 
etc. ?  I might be able to suggest some ways to preserve a batch of 
extract, such as a canning-like method with mason jars.

Curiosity :  have you tried to concentrate the extract, like 
boiling or evaporating off 50% or 70% of the water ?  This might 
have a preservative effect (or enhance another method) on stored 
solution.

Also, why did you make your own blackwater extract ?  What did you 
have a need for it for ?  Were you happy with the results ?

Peace, folks.

[email-masked]           | |                  a State of Grace.

---

From: popabear <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:04:54 -0500

This is a response I posted to a suggestion in 
rec.aquaria.tech.  Has anyone ever used a microwave to 
sterilize any of their aquarium equipment or tank 
ornaments ?

===================================================================
Subject: Re: uWave sterilize driftwood?
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:57:56 -0500
From: popabear <[email-masked]>
To: Woody Brison <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.tech

Woody Brison wrote:
> 
> A friend of mine just dropped an idee into my ear.  He
> said that microwave ovens will sterilize anything.  That
> they were first used in hospitals because they were the
> only way to sterilize wood, such as tongue depressors,
> etc.  I wonder if one could just chuck the likely looking
> bit of wood in the microwave and nuke for a minute or
> something and have it come out completely ready for the
> aquarium, could it be that simple.

This is a fascinating thought for smaller peices of wood.  I imagine
that it will work most effectively if the wood is well-saturated with
water, and that you pay cloase attention to it so that you don't
actually ignite it in your micro-wave  (should be very difficult, but is
theoretically possible).

Didn't know if you were responding to my post about making driftwood or
not, but this ties in nicely.

My cautions would be :

1)  that care still be taken with green or partially green wood -- I've
still not determined what toxins may exist in the sap of different tree
species (dead or green).

2)  that soaking the wood for a couple of days in freshwater is still a
good idea.  I've been running this experiment for about three weeks now
in three changes of water, and the water has become _very_ dark.  Looks
black/bloody.  I would have hated to do this to my tank right off !

I suspect that soaking through several water changes & then microwaving
it may be an excellent approach to getting sterile wood in the tank that
isn't gonna make it look like effluent from a mulch pile.

To be continued ....

Peace,

---

From: Sam Beavin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 07:42:42 -0800

How 'bout this idea.  Go to a thrift shop and buy an old Mr. Coffee for
about 3.00.  Brew up you peat like a pot of coffee.  No filtering and if
it isn't strong enough run it through again or multiple agains.  Should
work.
-- 
Sam Beavin
[email-masked]
PO Box 2249
Bothell,  WA  98041