Subject: pesticide background info
From: [email-masked] (Ken Toews)
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 16:39:28 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture

BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON PESTICIDES.
 BY FAX PHONE 825-4034
 EMAIL CONTACT [email-masked]

DISTRIBUTED BY P.A.A.L.S.
People Against Addicted Lawns
For this and more information in a booklet form please 
contact: P.O.Box 29093 3500 Fallowfield road Nepean Ontario
K2J 4A9

WHAT IS AN ADDICTED LAWN?

     An addicted lawn is a lawn without a healty biologically
active soil. Pesticides like 2,4-D and MCPA destroy the life giving
property of soils making harmful fertilizers like urea necessary.
This leads to further degridation of the soil that inevitablly
attracts non desirable insects, then insecticides are needed. It is
a viscous and very profitable circle. Your lawn has become addicted
to drugs.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:
1: Commonly used lawn care products contain products that are known
to cause cancers of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon, prostate
and liver. Also disorders of the skin and liver, reproductive and
developmental disorders, low sperm counts, increased birth defects,
phycological effects, immune system disorders, gastrointestinal
ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism are known to occur in people
who use pesticides.
2: Pesticides have been linked to childhood brain tumours and
leukaemia.
3: Pesticides mimic natural estrogens, because of this they are
associated with breast cancer and testicular cancer.
4: Dogs of home owners who spray pesticides are more likely to get
one of the fastest growing types of cancers in humans.
5: Pesticide use is growing, especially in the lawn care industry.
Its growth is paralleled by a steady increase in cancer deaths in
humans.
6: Humans are in the process of becoming immune to pesticides, like
any population where this has occurred a majority of the population
must die or fail to reproduce. Human sperm counts are down 50% over
the last 50 years.
7: Pesticides pose a serious threat to ground water, birds, bees,
fish.
8: Most pesticides have NOT been tested for safety. They are
regulated. There is no safe pesticide. 
9: The process to determine if a pesticide is safe is called risk
assessment. This process is used to calculate how many people it is 
acceptable to kill with a product. 
10: Evidence indicates that the pesticide industry can not be
trusted. In the past they have shipped banned products to the third
world, used dangerous manufacturing processes that have killed
thousands of people and they have falsified product safety data.
11: Lawn care companies regularly misrepresent their products as
safe. No government agency has ever labelled any pesticide as safe.
12: Workers with at least one year of exposure are more likely to
get cancers of the lung and suffer unexplained premature death.
There is a dramatic increase in soft tissue sarcomas among
pesticide workers.
13:You can stop pesticide spraying in your community. On Aug 19
1993 a superior court judge ruled that the municipality of Hudson
was legal in passing a bylaw outlawing the spraying of pesticides
around homes.
     Although pesticide regulations are a matter of provincial
jurisdiction the Judge decided the town council acted in response
to a PUBLIC HEALTH MENACE under Quebec's Cities and Towns Act.
Ontario has a similarly worded act that allows municipalities to
rule on matters that are of concern to the health and well being of
residents. COMMON WEED KILLERS ARE LINKED TO HEALTH PROBLEMS
     There have been over 200 independent studies that link 2,4-D
with various diseases. 2,4-D is found in 1,500 over the counter
weed killers.  The National Cancer Institute has linked pesticide
exposures to lymphatic cancers. Their study was based on 948
farmers who had cancer and an equal number who did not. Exposed
individuals were 600% more likely to contract cancer than people
who did not contact the pesticide. Farmers who used protective
equipment, such as respirators, gloves, and a change of clothing
after contact were able to reduce the risk by only 20%.
     Hazleton laboratories found that 10% of rats exposed to 2,4-D
developed brain tumours. 2,4-D is contaminated with dioxins during
manufacture. Dioxins are the most potent poison known to man. 
     The Veterans Legal Services Project of Washington D.C.
reviewed 285 different published studies of human exposure to
phenoxy herbicides and dioxins. They found that they caused
specific cancers, skin and liver disorders, reproductive and
developmental disorders, low sperm counts, spontaneous abortions in
the wives of the affected individuals, increased birth defects,
including skin, nerve, heart, kidney, and cleft lips and palate.
The study went on to say there was "sound scientific evidence" of
an association between the 2-4,D and a whole host of other diseases
including cancer of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon,
prostate, liver, psychological effects, immune system disorders,
gastrointestinal ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism.
     Another common chemical used for lawn care is M.C.P.A. (4-
CHLOR-2METHYLPHENOXY ACIDIC ACID). This is an organic acid that is
closely related to 2,4-D. The chemical industry will create a
compound similar to a pesticide that is found to be dangerous. It
takes years for the new chemical to be proven as dangerous as the
old chemical.  
     The two most common weed killers used around the home are 2,4-
D and diazanon. Diazanon is known to be a hazard to songbirds.
SOURCES: 

A. Blair, " Herbicides and non-Hodgkins lymphoma New evidence from
a study of Saskatchewan farmers" Journal of the National Cancer
Institute Volume 82 1990 Pages 544-545

Olav Axelson and others, " Herbicide Exposure and Tumour Mortality"
Scandinavian Journal of Work, Environment, and Health Volume 6
March 1980 pages 73-79

Mikael Eriksson and others," Exposure to Dioxins as a risk factor
for Soft Tissue Sarcoma: A Population based case control study"
Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 March 22 1991
pages 486-490

National Veterans Legal Services Project "Human Health Effects
Associated with exposure to Herbicides and or their associated
Contaminants - Chlorinated Dioxins" (Washington D.C. National
Veterans Legal Services Project, 2001 S Street N.W. Washington D.C.PESTICIDES HARM CHILDREN
LEUKAEMIA
     A parents use of pesticides around the home can increase a
childs' risk of developing leukaemia.  A 1993 study looked at 123
pairs of families, one family with a child less than 10 year old
with leukaemia matched with a healthy child of identical age, race,
socioeconomic status and sex.
     Parental exposure to pesticides inside the home, or in the
garden increased the children's risk of leukaemia. Previous studies
have linked pesticides to leukaemia in farmers.  This is the first
study showing a link between household pesticides and leukaemia in
children.
BRAIN CANCERS
     The incidence of childhood brain cancers has increased 47%
between 1973 and 1988. The cause of brain cancer is unknown. It is
usually fatal. The average time between diagnosis and death is nine
months. 
     A 1993 study of brain cancer in Missouri children shows an
associations between brain cancer and pesticides. The products
included flea strips, collars, spray bombs, and the spraying of
yards for weeds.    This study examined 45 Missouri children with
brain cancer plus 2 control groups. Control group 1 was 85 healthy
friends of the cancer stricken children and Control group 2 was 108
children with other types of cancers.
     What distinguished the families with brain cancer was their
pesticide use. They used pesticides in their homes more often than
did families whose children did not develop brain tumours. The
study found 15 statistically significant associations between
pesticide use and childhood brain cancer. 
METABOLIC DISORDERS
     Pesticides can be eaten on food or absorbed through the skin.
Some interfere with the body's ability to use vitamin B-6. Vitamin
B-6 deficiency interferes with essential fatty acid metabolism. It
also has neurological effects ranging from epileptic seizures to a
feeling of pins and needles in the extremities.
MENTAL DISORDERS
     The American Journal of Psychiatry has reported three clinical
studies of patients who suffer from panic attacks as a result of
exposure to pesticides.
     Panic attacks are a medically defined condition involving:
confusion, disorientation, cold sweats, palpitations of the heart,
difficulty breathing, tremors, fatigue, muscular cramps, and chest
tightness. 
     The panic attacks became debilitating. These attacks were
brought on by the organic solvents in pesticides and were not dose
related. These are examples of ecological illness, like an allergic
reaction, to the presence of exotic synthetic chemicals in the
environment. If exposure to synthetic chemicals increases, more
such medical problems must be anticipated.
CHEMICAL SENSITIVITY
     15% of North Americans experience some form of increased
allergic sensitivity to chemicals or the environment. This
phenomena is increasing in occurrence and severity. Chemically
sensitive individuals are victims of the modern Industrial
environment. The best treatment is avoiding the use of unnatural
chemical agents in and around your home. Fortunately allergic
reactions to dandelion pollen are extremely rare. The size of the
dandelion pollen makes it unlikely to be a source of allergic
reaction.
IMMUNE SYSTEM DISORDERS
     There is a large and convincing body of evidence showing that
pesticides harm the immune system. Pesticide exposure is linked to
a variety of immune system disorders including suppressed T cell
activity, T cells are a particular kind of cell that circulates in
the blood and fights off bacteria,viruses, and cancer cells. The
incidence of immune system disorders is increasing in the general
public.
     It is noteworthy that the same rare cancers affect three
divergent groups; Farmers who have been exposed to pesticides,
patients with AIDS, and people who have had organ transplants who
are then given drugs to suppress their immune system. 
Sources:
Devra Lee Davis and Joel Schwartz, "Trends in Cancer Mortality:
U.S. White Males and Females, 1968-1973." The Lancet Vol 1 march 19
1988 pages 633-636.
Devra Lee Davis and Others "Is Brain Cancer Mortality Increasing in
Industrial countries?"  American Journal of Industrial Medicine
Volume  19 1991 pages 421-431
Tim Beardsley "Childhood Leukaemia" July 1987 
Journal of the National Cancer Institute Pages 39-46.
J.M. Peters; Brain tumours in children.... Science Vol 213
(1981) Pg. 235 237 
James R. Davis and others " Family Pesticide use in the home,
Garden,
Orchard and Yard" Archives of Environmental Contamination and
Toxicology. Volume 22 1992 pages 260 to 266
Leo Galland M.D. Diane Dincin Buchman P.H.D. "Super immunity for
Kids
the scientific guide to nutrition for children" page 13
D. Toth "Actual New Cancer-Causing Hydrazines, Hydrazides, and
Hydrazones" Cancer Research and Clinical Oncology 97 (1980):97-108
D Toth and J Erickson, "Reversal of the Toxicity of Hydrazine
Analogues 
by Pyridoxine Hydrochloride," Toxicology 7 ( 1977):31-36
Stephen R Dager and others, "Panic disorders Precipitated...."
American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 144 August 1987 Pages 1056-1058
Reprints available from Dr Dager ZA-99 Harborview Medical Center 
325 9th Avenue, Seattle WA 98104National Center for Environmental Health "Chemical Sensitivity" 
1100 Rural Avenue, Voorhees, N.J. 08043; 1-609-429-5358 
Ashford and Miller, "Chemical exposure: Low Levels and High Stakes"
NY Van Nostrand Reinhold 1990
P.T. Thomas and others, "Immunological Effects of Pesticides" in 
Scott R Baker and Chris Wilkinson, editors "The Effects of
Pesticides
 on Human Health" Prinecton N.J. Princeton Scientific Publishing,
1990

PESTICIDE USE RELATED TO BREAST CANCER
     Scientists first found DDT in human breast milk in 1951. DDT
like many pesticides are more fat soluble than water soluble. 
Because of this they enter the body and build up in the fatty
tissues. In 1975 the Environmental protection Agency tested human
milk for pesticides. 100% of the samples contained DDT, 99%
contained PCBs and 83% contained dieldrins. All three of these
substances are carcinogens in humans.
     A 1982 study of human milk found that 75% contained the
following man made chemicals; methylene chloride, 1,1,1-
trichloroethane, carbon tetrachloride, benzaldehyde, and acetone. 
     Is it surprising then that one in nine women now gets breast
cancer? Breast cancer appears to be caused by environmental causes
more than genetics. Women in Japan have one quarter the incidence
of breast cancer until they move to North America, then the levels
rise to North American levels. Cancer experts claim that 30% of
breast cancers can be attributed to social conditions. Birth order
(younger is better), exercise (more is better), animal fats (less
is better), green vegetable (more is better). But what of the other
70% of Breast Cancers?
     Recent conditions in Israel have shown that pesticides may be
an important cause of breast cancer.    Measurement of three
pesticides in  human milk in Israel in the 1970's revealed levels
of contamination of Lindane, alpha-B.H.C. and DDE in concentrations
1000 times higher than in Canada. (DDE is formed when DDT breaks
down and is more dangerous than DDT.) 
     In 1978 public protests brought about a ban of these
pesticides. There was a rapid reduction in all these contaminants.
By 1980 breast milk contamination had dropped by 90% or more among
Israeli women.
     During this unusual rise and fall of pesticide residue in
human milk there was a corresponding rise and fall of breast cancer
in young Israeli women. The scientists who studied pesticides and
breast cancer in Israel made the important observation that
pesticides mimic or interfere with estrogen metabolism.
Corroborating this view is a study of American women that shows
that women with elevated levels of pesticides have a higher levels
of breast cancer than a control group without elevated level of
these toxins. Research is showing that many synthetic pesticides,
mimic or interfere  with estrogen and other sex hormones in
wildlife and humans.
Sources:
Jerome B. Westin and Elihu Richter, " The Israeli Breast Cancer
anomaly"  as cited in Cancer statistics review 1973-1988 National
Institute of Health publications No 91-2789 Journal of the National
Cancer Institute.

Frank Falck Jr., and others "Pesticides and Polychlorinated
Biphenyl Residues in Human Breast Lipids and their Relation to
Breast Cancer." Archives of Environmental Health Volume 47 No 2
March 1992 pages 143-146

Edo D Pellizzari and others, "Purgable Organic compounds in Mothers
milk", Bulletin of Environmental contamination and Toxicology Vol
28
1982 pages 322-328

E.P. Laug, "Occurrence of DDT in Human Milk" Archives of Industrial
Hygiene, Volume 3 1951 pages 245-246PETS ARE AT RISK FROM PESTICIDES
     According to the Journal of the National Cancer Institute dog
owners who spray or dust their lawns with weed killers containing
2,4-D are getting cancer at twice the rate of other dogs. Dogs walk
across or roll in herbicide treated lawns and then ingest toxic
chemicals when they lick their coats and paws. Naturally, children
who play on treated lawns will also come in contact with the
chemicals. Dogs and children will also track chemicals indoors
where prolonged exposure will occur. 
     People spread 2,4-D around homes and gardens to kill broad
leaf weeds, crabgrass, and dandelions. Farmers use it on tomatoes
to cause all fruit to ripen at the same time for machine
harvesting, and utility companies use it to clear brush around
roads and under hydro lines. It is used heavily on lawns, corn, and
rice to kill weeds. From 1962 to 1971 it was spread as Agent Orange
by U.S. Airmen. Thousands have filed lawsuits against the U.S.
government and companies that supplied Agent Orange because of
cancers and birth defects in their children. Vets who handled Agent
Orange are 70% more likely to father children with birth defects
than vets who did not handle Agent Orange. 
     Farmers who use this dangerous substance are getting the same
type of cancer ( Non Hodgkin's Lymphomas ) as dogs who roll around
on herbicide treated lawns. The occurrence of such cancers has been
slowly rising  for several decades tracking the emergence of the
modern lifestyle in which the dandelion free lawn has come to
symbolize the good life.
Sources:
Howard M. Haynes and others " Case control Study of Canine
Malignant Lymphoma: Positive Association with Dog Owners use of
2,4-D"Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 83
September 4 1991 Pages 1226-1231

Sheila K. and others " Agriculture Herbicide use and Risk of
Lymphoma
and Soft Tissue Sarcoma," Journal of the American Medical
Association.
Vol 256 Sept 5 1986 Pages 1141 - 1147

Ann Aschengrau and others " Paternal Military service in Vietnam
and
the risk of Late Adverse Pregnancy Outcomes" American Journal of
Public Health Vol 80 October 1990 Pages 1218-1224

A. Blair "Herbicides and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma: New evidence from
a study of Saskatchewan farmers" Journal of the National Cancer
Institute Volume 82 1990 pages 544-545

Lennart Hardell and Mikael Eriksson "The association between soft
tissue Sarcomas and Exposure to Phenoxyacetic acids" Cancer
Volume 62 August 1 1988 pages 652-656

Kenneth Cantor and others "Distribution of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphomas
in the Untied States Between 1950 and 1975," Cancer Research
Volume 40 August 1980 pages 2645-2652.PESTICIDE USE IS GROWING
     Between 1950 and 1980 there has been a twelve fold increase in
the use of pesticides. On corn the increase in the use of
insecticides has been a thousand fold. Today the fastest growing
area of pesticide use is lawn care. North Americans spend almost
800 million dollars spreading 75,000,000 pounds of pesticide on
their lawns every year. The industry is growing at 9% a year,
doubling in size every 8 years.
     The growth of pesticide use has not reduced crop losses.
Between 1950 and 1980 with a twelve fold increase in pesticide use
crop losses to insects have increased from 7% to 13%. Clearly
insecticides are not effective. Scientific evidence only indicates
that wide spread use of any insecticide leads to an eventual
increase in the population of the target population. This is
probably due to the fact that pesticides kill the predators and
after an initial population decrease, the target population become
immune.
     Despite proof that in the long term pesticides do not work
more than one billion pounds of pesticides, 660 million pounds of
herbicides, 132 million pounds of fungicides, 268 million pounds of
insecticides, and 70 million pounds of related chemicals are used
each year in North America alone. There are roughly four pounds of
pesticides spread for each man women and child in North America
each year.
     The effect these chemicals have on our population is becoming
apparent. We must keep in mind that before 1950 there was no
significant use of pesticides. Since that time the increased
incidence of cancer has occurred as outlined in the following
chart. 
CANCER TYPE         PERCENTAGE CHANGE IN INCIDENCE
1950-1987
Colon                    +24.9%
Larynx                   +57.3%
Testicles                +97.3%
Bladder                  +52.5%
Childhood (all types)    +28.4%
Leukaemia                +2.6%
Lung                     +257%  
Skin                     +283%  
Breast                   +258%  
Prostate                 +97%
Kidney                   +101%  
lymphoma                 +153%  
Average                  +42%
Sources: 
U.S. National Cancer Institute ; Tyler Miller Environmental Science
Third Edition Belmont Ca. Wadsworth 1991 Pages 313-317
"Lawn care pesticides. Risks remain uncertain while prohibited
safety claims continue". U.S. Accounting office Free Upon request
phone orders accepted 1-202-512-6000 Ask for document # RCED-90-134
Devra Lee Davis and others "Agricultural Exposures and Cancer
trends in Developed countries," Environmental Health Perspecives
Vol 100 1992 pages 39-44PESTICIDES AND IMMUNITY
     Between 1950 and 1980 nearly 500 important insect pests have
developed genetic resistance to common pesticides. It is estimated
that by the year 2000 virtually all major insect pests will show
some form of genetic resistance. In addition to insects, genetic
resistance has developed in 80 species of weeds treated with weed
killers, 70 species of fungus treated with fungicide, and 10
species of rats treated with rat poisons. Genetic resistance cannot
be stopped, it is the nature of all species. Unfortunately this is
a double edged sword. A fundamental requirement of genetic change
is the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the
population.
     A recent study in the British Medical Journal concluded that
men in western countries today have sperm counts less than half as
high as their grandfathers had at the same age. In addition the
increase in cancer of the testicles has increased 4 fold in the
last 40 years; and various birth defects to the male reproductive
system have increased 4 fold during the same time period. As we
pointed out earlier a fundamental requirement of genetic change is
the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the population.
This process is clearly under way. The only question is what is
causing this change?
CHEMICALS THAT MIMIC NATURAL ESTROGENS
     Evidence is mounting that these changes are caused by exposure
of males very early in life to chemicals that act like estrogens.
Synthetic chemicals that mimic estrogens include contraceptives,
D.E.S. which was fed to beef cattle from the 50's to the 70's, and
pesticides.  We now live in an environment that can be viewed as a
virtual sea of estrogens. 
     Chlorinated hydrocarbons, ie pesticides, mimic hormones and
interfere with the endocrine system of wildlife and humans. Studies
link them to breast cancer in women and testicular cancer in their
sons. Thus breast cancer, testicular cancer, and defects in the
male reproductive system including diminished sperm count all seem
linked.
     Diminished sperm count is a serious matter. Many animals
produce up to 1,400 times as much sperm as is needed for fertility.
In contrast the average human produces only 2 to 4 times as much
sperm as is needed to fertilize a human egg.
Sources:
E Carlsen and others, "Evidence for decreasing quality of semen
during past 50 years." British Medical Journal Vol 305 1992 pages
609-613
A.Giwercman and others "The human testis-an organ at risk?"
International Journal of Andrology? Vol 15 1992 pages 373-375.
R Sharpe and others "Are Estrogens involved in falling sperm counts
and disorders of the male reproductive tract" The Lancet Vol 341
May 1993 pages 1392-1395.
R.Sharpe "Are oestrogens involved in falling sperm counts..." The
Lancet Volume 341 May 29 1993.
"Estrogen chemicals lower sperm count"  Chemical and Engineering
News June 7 1993 pages 28.
Plus 12 other research paper on the same topic indicating the same
conclusion.PESTICIDES POSE A THREAT TO OUR WATER
     Since 1980 researchers have found agricultural chemicals in
ground water supplies that serve hundreds of millions of people.
Recent studies in Eastern Ontario have shown that over 75% of wells
are polluted with a herbicide used on corn. Residents in Iowa; 27%
of which drink water contaminated with pesticides have a higher
than normal risk of developing leukaemia, lymphoma and other
cancers. 
     Water quality in our rivers is increasing on a number of
fronts, for instance bacterial and lead levels are decreasing
because of a ban on leaded gasoline and improved sewage treatment.
Unfortunately increased usage of fertilizer on suburban lawns is
causing other problems.  One study looked at 24 measures of water
quality taken at 380 water sampling stations across the country
from 1974-1981. 
     Of the 34 chemicals widely used by the lawn care industry 35%
were detected in ground water. Of these:
62% are toxic to fish.                       35% are toxic to bees.
29% cause cancer.                            35% Cause birth
defects.
21% interfere with reproduction.             39% cause liver
damage.
59% are toxic to the nervous System.         42% cause kidney
damage
85% lead to sensitivity in individuals.      32% are toxic to
birds.THE LAWN CARE INDUSTRY IS UNREGULATED
     The business is largely unregulated. Investigations have found
that the lawn care industry regularly makes false claims such as:
*Our products are non toxic
*The only way to get sick from 2,4-D would be to lay in it for a
few days
*The safety issue is blown out of proportion. Such a small amount
of chemicals is not dangerous.
*It is safe to use, will not harm bees, birds, or other beneficial
insects.
*lawn care products are safe for the environment.
     Of the 34 major lawn care chemicals now in use, not one has
been fully tested.  Lawn care companies in Ontario are required by
law to tell employees what they are spraying. You can ask to see
these documents. In all commercial lawn poisons there is an active
ingredient and an inert ingredient. The inert ingredients can be a
variety of carcinogenic substances. Often these substances are more
dangerous than the active ingredient used to kill weeds. 
     Companies that treat hazardous waste are allowed to "recycle"
hazardous waste into lawn care products. It is unclear which is
more dangerous the active pesticide ingredient or the "recycled"
hazardous waste.
Source:
New York office of the Attorney General. Ask for "The secret
Hazards of Pesticides Inert Ingredients" by Susan Jaffe, Free
copies of report from  the Office of Public Information NY State
Department of Law, 120 Broadway N.Y. N.Y. 10271."Lawn care
pesticides. Risks remain uncertain while prohibited safety claims
continue". U.S. Accounting office Free Upon request phone orders
accepted 1-202-512-6000 Ask for document # RCED-90-134
IS THERE ANY GOOD NEWS?

     On Aug 19 1993 a superior court judge opened the door for
municipalities to outlaw pesticide spraying, ruling that the
municipality of Hudson was legal in passing a bylaw to that effect.
Lawn care companies argued that pesticide regulations were a matter
of provincial jurisdiction and in the absence of a provincial code
restricting pesticide use Hudson could not introduce it's own law.

      In an 11 page decision delivered in Valleyfield Quebec the
Judge decided the town council acted in response to a
PUBLIC HEALTH MENACE under Quebec's Cities and Towns
Act. The mayor of the town was concerned about the towns water
supply and he noted the pesticide applicators rarely "went by the
book" in applying pesticides. Ontario has a similarly worded act
that allows municipalities to rule on matters that are of concern
to the health and well being of residents. Force their hand.

Source:
      The Montreal Gazette Friday August 20 1993 Page 1

-- 
           0    >:<   Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, 
        _ /=_        9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really
......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth.
Hah he's probably a vegatarian.