Subject: Re: Septic Helpers

From: [email-masked] (Geoffrey Leach)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:30:48 GMT

: I got talked into buying Septic Helper 2000 from Krane Products INc.
: It is supposed to prevent septic tank pumping and prevent 
: clogging up of the whole septic system.
: 3 year supply costs $109. 

A suggestion, if I may.  If the product comes with an iron-clad
guarantee that if the solids in your un-pumped septic system ever find
their way into your leach field and clog it, requiring you to build
a new leach field, Krane Products will pick up the entire cost, then
fine.  Otherwise, I think you've been had.

In any case, please explain why $109 the year is preferable to having
the tank pumped every few years.  Can't cost more than that for the
pumping.

-- 
Geoffrey Leach          C/C++/X11/Motif/OpenLook Implementation
[email-masked]        Mountain Ranch Software
                        P.O. Box 336
                        Mountain Ranch CA  95246
                        209-754-1869

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From: [email-masked] (Tropical Steve)
Date: 2 Mar 1995 21:42:43 GMT

19A752100-M.SZELA(HOV018)NONE ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Does anyone use it ??
: Is it worth buying ??
: Do I need it ???

    Septic systems get a build up after while(called a bio-mass) that 
tends to clog the system.  However the way to slow it down and be earth 
friendly is to use "real" bio-degradable products...low flush 
toilets..low flow fixtures...and be conscious of water usage. When the 
anerobic action is allowed to do its job  the system will work indefinitely.
But when the system is screwed up with all sorts of non-bio stuff and 
toxic chemicals.....and then overloaded to boot...for get it. Try writing 
a company in Ukiah Calif. called REAL GOODS they have  the technical data 
to improve any rural system.

--

[email-masked]            "Don't hate nuthin at all
[email-masked]                           'cept hatred"
[email-masked]

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From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 3 Mar 1995 18:02:20 GMT

[email-masked] (Tropical Steve) wrote:

> toxic chemicals.....and then overloaded to boot...for get it. 

Steve

I'm confused.  Why would you want low flow toilets and fixtures on 
a sepic system?  Unless your system is badly undersized, or all
ready full to the point that you are getting a back up when you flush,
I would think that you would want a high flow rate (what the sanitary 
engineers refer to as a high delution factor.)  The more water that 
flows through, the more oxygen it drags in with it, and the faster the
bio mass breaks down.  Water does not have any "bio mass" of its own 
so reducing the amount you use will not reduce the bio mass in your 
septic tank.

		Bryce Grevemeyer

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From: [email-masked] (Tropical Steve)
Date: 4 Mar 1995 17:16:35 GMT

Bryce Grevemeyer ([email-masked]) wrote:
: [email-masked] (Tropical Steve) wrote:

: > 
: >     Septic systems get a build up after while(called a bio-mass) that 
: > tends to clog the system.  However the way to slow it down and be earth 
: > friendly is to use "real" bio-degradable products...low flush 
: > toilets..low flow fixtures...and be conscious of water usage. When the 
: > anerobic action is allowed to do its job  the system will work indefinitely.
: > But when the system is screwed up with all sorts of non-bio stuff and 
: > toxic chemicals.....and then overloaded to boot...for get it. 

: I'm confused.  Why would you want low flow toilets and fixtures on 
: a sepic system?  Unless your system is badly undersized, or all
: ready full to the point that you are getting a back up when you flush,
: I would think that you would want a high flow rate (what the sanitary 
: engineers refer to as a high delution factor.)  The more water that 
: flows through, the more oxygen it drags in with it, and the faster the
: bio mass breaks down.  Water does not have any "bio mass" of its own 
: so reducing the amount you use will not reduce the bio mass in your 
: septic tank.

  I would think the biomass would only develope because of using certain 
household chemicals that make it impossible for the anerobic digestion to 
completely fulfill its duty.  The septic tank is always full of water and 
to put massive amounts of water into the tank stops the contact time 
needed for the organisms to do their job.  Its obvious something is wrong 
because so many systems that were designed according to specs are not 
working.  We are injecting all sorts of stuff that doesnt break down.  
Such as toilet paper with dyes, laundry soaps with bleaching agents and 
odorizers, and other household chemistry. I am not sure about your 
reference to oxygen, but i suspect that if your system is ventilated 
properly there would not be an oxygen problem.

-- 
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 steve immel                    The world's fate hangs by a thread of
 [email-masked]                verbs and nouns.
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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From: [email-masked] (Jeff Dotterer)
Date: 5 Mar 1995 17:13:04 GMT

While we're on the subject I have a couple of questions.

1)  I use Rid-X (sp) once a month just like the box says to.  This is
supposed to break everything down, therefore the tank doesn't have to be
pumped for a few years.  How many years, anybody have any experience with
this stuff?  Does it really work?  Dad said when he was growing up (rural
Ok.) that they would put yeast in the septic, and that some people would
even throw a dead chicken in sometimes?  Dad could be pulling my leg about
the chicken, you never know with him he loves to kid.

2)  I've also been told not to have a garbage disposal hooked-up.  The
bacteria cannot break down the garbage and that you'll have to have it
pumped 2 or 3 times as much as normal?  Any ideas, comments?

3)  My septic system is 7 years old, how long will it last?  I don't know
that it's ever been pumped (probably hasn't) and the lid is not exposed so
I'll have to dig to check it.  How often should it be pumped?  There's my
wife and I and we have lived here for 18 months, before that it was vacant
for a year.  The previous family lived there for 4 1/2 years, husband and
wife and three small boys.

Any response would be greatly appreciated!

________________________________________________________________________________

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain
a little safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety."    -- Benjamin Franklin

The opinions are mine and may not be that of my employer

________________________________________________________________________________

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From: [email-masked] (Geoffrey Leach)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 23:29:33 GMT

Country Plumbing -- Living with a Septic System
Gerry Hartigan
Alan C. Hood & Co., Inc.
28 Birge St.
Brattleboro VT 05301
ISBN 0-911469-02-8 $7.95 or $8.95 ppd from publisher

Author installed and serviced tanks for 25 years, so he ought to know.

"Things to keep out of your septic tank.

Grease
Colored toiled paper
Drain cleaners
Toilet bowl cleaners
Bleach
Coffee Grounds
Chemicals"

He says (much to _my_ supprise) that disposals are OK. He used to
sell "activators", but those that bought them didn't use them, so 
he stopped.

He says that you can tell from the contents of the tank both how well
it is working and whether it was time to pump. So his advice for new
buyers of an existing system is to pump the tank and get some
advice from the pumper on how its working.

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From: [email-masked] (Jeff Dotterer)
Date: 5 Mar 1995 17:13:04 GMT

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From: [email-masked] (Geoffrey Leach)
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 23:29:33 GMT

Grease
Colored toiled paper
Drain cleaners
Toilet bowl cleaners
Bleach
Coffee Grounds
Chemicals"

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From: [email-masked] (Roger Vortman)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 00:42:47 GMT

The lower flow the fixtures that drain into your septic system
are, the longer your leach field will last.  Saturation is a real
problem with leach fields, and this is lessened with water 
conservation. 

-Roger

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From: [email-masked] ()
Date: 7 Mar 95 08:56:50 CST

This maybe a bit off this thread but if the problem is keeping
the system active would it be a good thing to add oxygen to the
system via some form of an air pump.  I see how the water will
bring oxygen into the system which is good on one hand but adds
to the saturation problem...why not simply add the oxygen supply
via a pipe/pump much like a fish tank?  Any thoughts?

Scott

Roger Vortman ([email-masked]) wrote:

: The lower flow the fixtures that drain into your septic system
: are, the longer your leach field will last.  Saturation is a real
: problem with leach fields, and this is lessened with water 
: conservation. 

: -Roger

: >>     Septic systems get a build up after while(called a bio-mass) that 
: >> tends to clog the system.  However the way to slow it down and be earth 
: >> friendly is to use "real" bio-degradable products...low flush 
: >> toilets..low flow fixtures...and be conscious of water usage. When the 
: >> anerobic action is allowed to do its job  the system will work indefinitely.
: >> But when the system is screwed up with all sorts of non-bio stuff and 
: >> toxic chemicals.....and then overloaded to boot...for get it. 
: >
: >I'm confused.  Why would you want low flow toilets and fixtures on 
: >a sepic system?  Unless your system is badly undersized, or all
: >ready full to the point that you are getting a back up when you flush,
: >I would think that you would want a high flow rate (what the sanitary 
: >engineers refer to as a high delution factor.)  The more water that 
: >flows through, the more oxygen it drags in with it, and the faster the
: >bio mass breaks down.  Water does not have any "bio mass" of its own 
: >so reducing the amount you use will not reduce the bio mass in your 
: >septic tank.

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From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 8 Mar 1995 16:30:03 GMT

Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]> wrote:
My appolgies for the preceding duplicated postings.

Does anyone know how to get rid of them?  I'm using netscape.

	Sorry again
		Bryce

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From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 7 Mar 1995 14:50:13 GMT

[email-masked] (Jeff Dotterer) wrote:
>
> 
> 1)  I use Rid-X (sp) once a month just like the box says to.  
> 
> 2)  I've also been told not to have a garbage disposal hooked-up.  
> 

The bio mass build up is part of a normally functioning system.
Organic material comes in, settles out of the flow of water and 
decomposes.  There will always be a certain transit time.  
Hopefully, the rate at which your bio mass decomposes will 
be equally to the rate at which you put stuff in.  Even it
it were perfect though, there is a certain amount of inorganic 
"sand?" that enters with the other stuff, and eventually it will
have to be cleaned out.

Garbage disposals.  Yes, you can hook them up, but remember that
it does also present an EXTRA load on your system.  Also, the 
material that comes from your toilet is, as it were, "pre digested".  
It will break down a whole lot faster than those ground up celery 
stalks.  This will cause an increase in the average bio mass.  If your 
system is large enough, you may not notice.  It WILL however bring 
the day that you need to have the tank pumped closer.  For you, the 
convenience MAY out weigh the cost.  (If you have a septic system 
you should at least consider composting your garbage.)

Toilet paper with perfume, dye and bleach.  I always understood
that the problem with these things in TP was the nasty pollution
problems at the plants that were producing it.  

When considering the effect of TP, on your septic system, look 
at what its made up of.  WOOD FIBER.  While the paper may 
fall apart in water, (the bio degradable ones do this quickly) the 
individual fibers are VERY slow to decompose.  :-(

As to the additives, I tend to be a bit leery of these products.
I believe that most of the bacteria you need are already present,
and a fresh supply arrives every time you flush the toilet.
If they are there, and food is present, they will multiply, even if 
they have to divide to do it. :-)     Unless of course, you have 
managed to completely poison your system with chemicals.  
Higher flow rates will help mitigate the effects of the chemicals.  

But then, what can the additives hurt, (except your wallet).

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From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 7 Mar 1995 14:51:08 GMT

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From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 7 Mar 1995 14:50:29 GMT

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From: [email-masked] (John A. Stanley)
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 23:45:09 GMT

>via a pipe/pump much like a fish tank?  Any thoughts?

Septic tanks are primarily anaerobic. But there are aerobic septic
systems that do use an air pump to keep the contents aerated. I
use one for my house in Iowa. The cost is _much_ less because it
only needs a 4' x 4' x 25' sand filter, and they say that wastes
are so completely broken down that they never need pumping.

--
John A. Stanley                    [email-masked]