Subject: Re: Pressure treated wood for raised beds?

From: [email-masked] (Vince Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 18:17:31 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]> writes:
>From: J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: Pressure treated wood for raised beds?
>Date: 22 Mar 1995 03:35:00 GMT

>In article <[email-masked]> Carol Alvin,
>[email-masked] writes:
>>When I mentioned this to a friend who is an experienced 
>>gardener, she said that whe wouldn't use pressure-treated
>>wood because of the chemicals used in treating the wood.
>>
>>AcK!  Does anyone have any facts about this?  
>>
>>Carol
>>-- 

>I just noticed the "Jared's Mommy" part.  No way should you use pressure
>treated wood.  A recent issue of OG mentions a product for building
>raised beds that is made out of recycled plastic.   If you're interested
>in finding it, e-mail me and I'll see if I can locate the product name
>for you.

Yep, Gardeners Supply sells em. 802-863-1700.  You can get 6 connectors and 
6 planks to make a 4'x8' bed for $79.95.  IMHO you could replace a lot of 
untreated, rotted lumber for that price.

BTW, the Organic Gardening article is considered to tend toward fear 
mongering by some in the rec.ww group.  As I said, supposedly the metal 
salts are tightly bound to the wood.  Nevertheless, I still don't think 
using arsenic salts indescriminately is a good idea.

Vince

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From: [email-masked] (Vince Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:25:56 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Carol Alvin) writes:

>We moved into a new house recently, and are busily building
>raised beds and preparing to plan  vegetable garden.  We
>bought a bunch of railroad ties to build the raised beds with.

There is often discussion about this over in rec.ww.  Many people caution 
against panic, saying that the metal salts (some heavy like arsenic) are 
bound very tightly to the wood.  The problem comes when the wood breaks 
down.  Personally, I don't think they are worth the risk.  Your railroad 
ties might be treated with creosote (tarry stuff) which is a different 
monster and probably bad as well.  There is also a new brown pressure 
treatement which they are touting now.  I just fiqure if its bad for bugs, 
its bad for us too.

I'd return the ties if I could and try something else.  

Vince

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From: [email-masked] (HollyTW)
Date: 21 Mar 1995 21:27:05 -0500

Cuprous arsenate is one of the chemicals used in the pressure treating
process.  It's not my favorite of compounds, but probably won't cause
severe damage.  It may, over time, leach into the soil, but shouldn't pose
immediate danger.  You might want to try one of the recycled plastic
products like NovaWood.  I bought some last year for a raised bed and have
been very please with it.  The only drawback I've found is the cost - 2.5
times that of landscaping timbers.

Happy gardening!
Holly

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From: J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Mar 1995 03:30:40 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> Vince Miller,
[email-masked] writes:
> Personally, I don't think they are worth the risk.  Your railroad 
>monster and probably bad as well. 

Organic Gardening magazine had an article about pressure treated wood
about a year ago that convinced me I wouldn't want it around any garden I
was growing food in, and I wouldn't want it around my small children if I
had any.  You might look for the article in your local library.  It left
me with no qualms against using an old sandbox (made of the
arsenic-treated wood, not creosote) left by the former owners of my house
as a raised bed for ornamentals.  The plants  seem very happy there. 
(They ought to.  They're sitting in 10 inches of topsoil.)

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From: J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Mar 1995 03:35:00 GMT

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From: [email-masked] (David Kolasa)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:53:14 GMT

>Vince

I spoke with our Environmental Health Engineer about this last summer and she 
said that migration of the treatment from the treated wood would be 
non-existant for all intents and purposes. She saw no problem in using treated 
wood for raised beds - their family does. 

It is so difficult to guage the REAL dangers in our world. To me, anyone who 
rides a bike on the highway is suicidal but often these are the same people 
cautioning us NOT to eat any food that has ever been treated with any 
pesticide (as if one REALLY knows unless you grow it yourself) or screech the 
loudest when it comes time for the Dept. of Environmental Resources to spray 
BT for Gypsy Moths. The people with the knee jerk scream 'WOLF' reaction with 
no scientific evidence are the ones who make society at large doubt the wisdom 
of consuming organically.

That ought to give fodder to a few flamers . . . . not my intent, by the way.

Dave Kolasa

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From: [email-masked] (Carol Alvin)
Date: 14 Mar 1995 09:33:18 -0700

Carol
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carol Alvin 	[email-masked] or [email-masked]
Jared's mommy, born 4-13-94
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: [email-masked] (Vince Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 18:17:31 GMT

Vince

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From: [email-masked] (Vince Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:25:56 GMT

Vince

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From: [email-masked] (HollyTW)
Date: 21 Mar 1995 21:27:05 -0500

Happy gardening!
Holly

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From: J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Mar 1995 03:30:40 GMT

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From: J. A. Stiller <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Mar 1995 03:35:00 GMT

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From: [email-masked] (David Kolasa)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:53:14 GMT

Dave Kolasa

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From: [email-masked] (Carol Alvin)
Date: 14 Mar 1995 09:33:18 -0700

Carol

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From: [email-masked] (Martha Clouse)
Date: 1 Apr 1995 01:54:09 GMT

I'd rather err on the side of caution.  I have beds made of regular 
lumber that are going on 9 years old. A kids sandbox made of regular 
lumber and painted will outlast the child's toddler and young childhood.  
When it finally disintegrates, your kids will be to old to want to play 
in it anyhow.  If you read the OG articles, they had data which showed 
migration.  The lumber companies would like you to believe that nothing 
bad will happen, but you are not supposed to burn it in your woodstove or 
put the sawdust in your compost so take your choice. Happy Gardening, 
Martha Clouse

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From: [email-masked] (Brad Andrews)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:00:57 GMT

Martha Clouse ([email-masked]) wrote:
: I'd rather err on the side of caution.  I have beds made of regular 
: lumber that are going on 9 years old. A kids sandbox made of regular 
: lumber and painted will outlast the child's toddler and young childhood.  
: When it finally disintegrates, your kids will be to old to want to play 
: in it anyhow.

Is this really true?

I am about to build a large outdoor sandbox and I was going to go with
cedar for its supposed lasting capabilities, but if I can just buy normal
wood, and paint it (with what?), I might go that route.

---

Brad Andrews
[email-masked]
All opinions are strictly mine

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From: [email-masked] (Brad Andrews)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:00:57 GMT

Is this really true?

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Brad Andrews
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Brad Andrews)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:00:57 GMT

Is this really true?

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Brad Andrews
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Chad James Segura)
Date: 6 Apr 1995 17:42:23 GMT

Not in the southeastern U.S.  Other wood in ground contact will only last
a year or two.  Sure there are alternatives, even here.  However, they are
either more expensive or it takes time to find cheap, good-looking rubble
that will work.  Most people are too lazy to look for cheap stone rubble,
etc.

  If you read the OG articles, they had data which showed 
: migration.

This is probably the biggest area of disagreement.  I don't know what
to believe about migration (and even if it migrates, will the plant uptake
it?) so I guess if I feel if it's important I'll test for migration with
my soil under the weather my soil gets.

  The lumber companies would like you to believe that nothing 
: bad will happen, but you are not supposed to burn it in your woodstove or 
: put the sawdust in your compost so take your choice.

So what?  What's that have to do with whether it's safe in the garden or not?

 Happy Gardening, 
: Martha Clouse

Some things seem to be pretty well-known.  Don't touch fresh PTW with the
naked skin.  Don't saw it without a respirator.  Some day it will decompose,
making for hazardous landfill.  PTW is not necessary outside of warm, humid
climes.

Chad

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From: [email-masked] (The Net Ranger)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:03:38 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Brad
Andrews) wrote:

(stuff deleted)

>From the land of perennial wetness (Seattle):

Stick with the treated wood.  Installed properly, most of it has a 20 year
guarantee (check the label stapled to the butt end of each piece).  The
problem with untreated, untreated/painted, and even cedar materials is that
rot will progress exponentially into the wood from even the smallest area
that lacks protection.  In the case of cedar, it's OK, but its
rot-prevention qualities may vary from timber to timber since this quality
is related to natural oil/volatile content of the wood.  In other words,
different tree (or different location in a single tree from which a board
was cut, different ability to resist rot.

Good Luck!

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From: [email-masked] (Awung)
Date: 14 Apr 1995 23:07:41 -0400

There's been issues raised about using PTL for your planting beds 
especially veggies since some sources say that the chemicals used to treat
the lumber leaches out into the soil.  It's not an issue if you are
planting flowers but whether you might want to chance have them taken up
by your veggies,  it's not clear what the true fact is.  I had a friend
who used Sunwood and it leached out massive amounts of chemical that the
soil was consider above toxic level...
Good luck

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From: [email-masked] (Awung)
Date: 14 Apr 1995 23:07:41 -0400