Subject: Re: Is "Roundup" Safe Way To Kill A Lawn

From: [email-masked] (Allyn Weaks)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 19:01:34 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (John Tusciuk)
wrote:

> Bill Dill ([email-masked]) wrote:
[...snip...]
> : Can anyone tell me anything about Roundup?  Is there any truly safe way to
> : kill off a lawn?
> 
> I've never heard of Roundup causing any problems, but if you are
> worried about it, ask the landscaper for the chemical data sheets
> (there's some acronym for these, but I can't remember it).  These list
> all of the possible hazards associated with use of a given chemical
> and employers (at least in Michigan) have to have these someplace
> accessible to any employees that may be exposed to the chemical, so
> I'm sure he's at least got a copy.

Material Safety Data Sheet.  Indeed, you should obtain and read these for
any herbicide/pesticide etc before you use it.  But be aware that it
doesn't tell the whole story; only the 'active' ingredients need to be
disclosed in the ingredients list.  Many companies manage to hide
hazardous materials as 'inert' ingredients.  Roundup is one of the (many)
offenders.   Glyphosate is fairly safe to animals - it quickly binds
tightly to many soils (n.b. it may take months or years to actually
degrade, and it doesn't bind well to sands and coarse silt, where it can
remain active to retard new plant growth until it does degrade), and is
not very toxic if you get it on your skin, or even breathe it.  But one of
the 'inert' ingredients is a surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine (POEA) which
often contains 1,4-dioxane (a carcinogen) as a contaminent.  POEA is
easily absorbed through the skin and has caused acute poisoning on its own
- it is much more toxic than glyphosate.  This surfactant is one of the
main reasons that Roundup sometimes works better than its clones with the
same active ingredients; it causes more of the glyphosate to be absorbed
by the plant.  Of course, a lack of POEA in a clone doesn't necessarily
make a clone safer - depends on what _they_ hide in their 'inert'
ingredients...

So use Roundup (or clone) where non-toxic solutions are impractical (I'll
be attacking my bindweed with it this year) but make sure you don't
breathe it or get it on your skin, and keep it away from kids and pets. 
Gloves and long sleeves are a good idea, as is painting it on instead of
spraying when possible (hard to do to a lawn...).  And if you lack clay in
your soil, you should probably wait a while before you replant.  But don't
be too paranoid; drinking the stuff outright will only kill you about 10%
of the time... and if you do spill a bit of the stuff on you, most will
wash off with *soap* and water.

Meanwhile, complain to your congress critters about the appalling laxity
in labelling requirements.

A reference:

Author:        Martinez-T-T.  Brown-K.
Author Affil.: Department of Pharmacology, St. Louis College of Pharmacy,
               Missouri 63110.
Title:         Oral and pulmonary toxicology of the surfactant used in
               roundup herbicide.
Source:        Proc-West-Pharmacol-Soc.  1991.  34.  P 43-6.
Journal Title: PROCEEDINGS-OF-THE-WESTERN-PHARMACOLOGY-SOCIETY.
-- 
Allyn Weaks
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Mar 95 14:48:26 -0600

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Martha Frost) writes:
>
> The name of the "right-to-know" list of exposure hazard is "Material Safety 
> Data Sheet" which is provided by the manufacturer upon request. "MSDS" is 
> probably the common acronym. Incidentally, Glyphosate is the active 
> ingredient, I believe, and is one of the compounds that water purveyors (ie, 
> public utilities) must test the drinking water supply for.

Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, is strongly bound to soil
particles.  It degrades there fairly quickly (days to a few weeks), and
does not pose much of a threat to water supplies.

I think you're confusing Lasso and Roundup (*where* do they get these
names??)  Lasso has atrazine as a main ingredient, and it does indeed
get into groundwater (and the drinking water system).

I'm willing to use glyphosate on a controlled basis.  I'm not willing
to use atrazine at all.

Kay Klier  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 11 Mar 1995 22:35:12 GMT

In <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bill Dill) writes:
>I got an estimate from a a landscaper for replacing my lawn.  I was
>surprised to learn that the major part of the job was killing and removing
>the old lawn.  He said that he would use a product called "Roundup".  I
>have 2 children so I'm concerned about the possible health problems I've
>heard associated with using herbicides and pesticides.  
>
>Can anyone tell me anything about Roundup?  Is there any truly safe way to
>kill off a lawn?
>
Glyphosate is the active ingredient in Roundup. It is supposed to be a relatively
safe herbicide since it does not leach. It does, however, kill anything it touches
and because it is systemic, it can cause alot of damage from drift. I have had alot
of questions about glyphosate's supposed safety. Lots of farmers use it in their
veggie gardens to kill quackgrass, etc., prior to seeding. I used it in a couple of
very small flower beds that had nothing in them, and noticed the next few years
that seed germination seemed to be reduced. I have talked to other people who
have felt their gardens didn't perform as well after having used glyphosate. 
The experts say because it binds so tightly to the soil it is safe, but I wonder... 
In any case, the dead plant matter killled with glyphosate should not be tilled into
your soil. It is this plant matter that contains the highest residue. 

So in summary I would watch out. While it doesn't leech, it is a potent chemical
and there are some serious unanswered questions about it. It has some very good
uses, but, why does he have to kill off your lawn first? Usually, tilling the old
lawn is more than sufficient. Oftentimes, the soil needs amending. There will be
a significant hazard to any trees or plants in your yard as well as those of any
neighbours. I would get quotes from a few other landscapers. The proposal you
have received sounds unduly drastic.

Good luck!

Dawn Campbell, Edmonton, AB

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From: [email-masked] (Margaret M. Steinbugler)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 21:15:18 GMT

Someone (sorry, I lost the name) wrote:
>
>I have used Round Up and have never had a problem with it.  It becomes  
>inactive when it comes into contact with soil and leaves no residue.  It  
>can, however, kill any plant that it comes in contact with and should  
>never be used around streams and ponds.  I am not sure how long the  
>chemical stays active on the leaves after application.
>
>In general its a fairly safe chemical.
>sdb

Question:  Is Roundup good as a spot week killer, say, for spraying
dandelions as they come up in the lawn?  Would it kill too much
of the surrounding grass?  Is there a better way to get rid of
dandelions than pulling (which keeps me from weeding the garden) (-: ?

Margaret Steinbugler
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Steven Moore)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:12:46 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bruce
Gregory) wrote:

> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (John
Tusciuk) says:
> >: I got an estimate from a a landscaper for replacing my lawn.  I was
> >: surprised to learn that the major part of the job was killing and removing
> >: the old lawn.  He said that he would use a product called "Roundup".  I
> >: have 2 children so I'm concerned about the possible health problems I've
> >: heard associated with using herbicides and pesticides.  
> >
> >: Thanks for the info.
> >John Tusciuk

OK. I've been lurking on this thread for some time now and though I would
wade in with another perspective. The active ingredient in Roundup is
called glyphosate. The Environmental Protection Agency reports that it
persists in the soil for 1-6 months, in water for 10-100 days. It has a
possibility to cause cancer (only proven so far in lab animals), and is
highly toxic to fish and aquatic invertebrates.

The "inert" ingredients such as POEA are three times as toxic as
glyphosate, but the manufacturer does not have to put this on the label
because of a legal loophole. 

There are lots of problems with Roundup, too many to list here. Contact
The Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, P.O. Box 1393,
Eugene, Oregon 97440, Ph. (503) 344-5044 for complete information. Ask for
their glyphosate information package. I would never use gluphosate where
children or pets might walk in the next 6 months.

You might consider killing existing turfgrass with a heavy mulch or black
plastic.
> >[email-masked]
> From all the sources I have gathered Roundup is very safe, it breaks
> down in the root structures in ten to fourteen days, can be used and 
> applied with minimal protection, rubber gloves.
-- 
Cheers...

Steven Moore - [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 13 Mar 95 13:46:57 -0600

>>chemical stays active on the leaves after application.
There is a formulation of glyphosate designed for use on stream
and lake margins, etc.  I think Pondmaster is the name, but DO check
the label and whether or not special permits are needed before using
glyphosate near bodies of water.  The difference is not in the
glyphosate, but in the "inert ingredients".

> dandelions than pulling (which keeps me from weeding the garden) (-: ?

If you apply it strictly to the dandelion foliage (a "stamp licker"
is a good way to do this), it will get the dandelions without
nailing the adjacent grass.  Roundup is non-selective, and will
essentially kill any green plant, given sufficient dosages and repetitions.
Glyphosate is the only herbicide that I consider safe enough to use;
I will NOT use 2,4-D, trimec, and other commonly available "home
weed killers".

Personally, I find that a session digging dandelions EXCELLENT therapy
for dealing with faculty meetings, etc...  And it seems to work
better for me than weeding the veggies!  BTW, one of the best
dandelion diggers I know of is a good strong slot screwdriver...

Another advantage of digging dandelions is that if the plant is
quite large, it may have shaded out the grass underneath it.  It's
quite easy to put a pinch of grass seed in the newly denuded area
as you're digging.

---

From: [email-masked] (Steven M. Begley)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 06:08:33 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>From: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: Is "Roundup" Good for Ind. Weeds? (Was: Lawn)
>Date: 13 Mar 95 13:46:57 -0600

>Kay Klier  [email-masked]

What's wrong with 2,4-D? Chemical companies have been combining 2,4-D and 
Sylvex for years. Ortho calls it: Weed-B-Gone, Amchem calls it: 3-D Weedone... 
The US Army used to use the SAME combination for all sorts of things. Of 
course, they called it: Agent Orange!!!!!!!!!
Steven

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From: [email-masked] (CAPalmer)
Date: 20 Mar 1995 18:20:46 -0500

Why is using Scotts a mistake?  

[I am not affiliated with Scotts, but I do intend to sue their "4-step"
this season.]

- Chris

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From: PATTIBELLE <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 23:59:54 -0500

>for dealing with faculty meetings, etc...  And it seems to work
 
I remember coming home from school and weeding some type of bindweed with
a vengence!  Got the bindweed all under control that way.  Even though
I'm now retired, whenever I see this particular weed I think of the
particular person who used to drive me to a frenzy of weed digging after
school!
 
Pat in Napa, CA

---

From: gracie!agrawal (Nisheeth Agrawal)
Date: 20 Mar 1995 15:18:07 GMT

>   I've read all of the responses to my original question but I've got to
>tell you, I'm still confused.  Where my children are concerned it doesn't
>matter to me which portion of the bell-shaped curve they might be on. I
>know that my children will be playing on this lawn, falling on this lawn,
>rolling on this lawn, then putting their hands in their mouths.  I'm clear
>that living in the real world has its risks and I know that I can't
>hermetically seal them off from all of the possible hazards of life (dog
>poop on the lawn probably poses as great a risk as this "Roundup" would). 
>But then again, nothing would be more stupid than hurting my kids so that
>my lawn will look better.
>
>   I'm usually such a pragmatic fellow.  This has thrown me for a loop.  I
>have read and appreciate everything everyone has written.  This diversity
>of valid opinions is what I like most about the Net.  I'll have to reread
>all of the posts and try to synthesize some course of action out of this.
>
>   At present my lawn looks really lousy because I've been vacillating on
>this for months now.  Last year I overseeded with rye to avoid having to
>make a decision.  This looked pretty good for a while until the heat hit
>it.  Now I've got a real bumper crow of dandelions out there. This is not
>how I want my house to look.  My neighbors lawns all look great (mostly). 
>So the pressures on.  Thanks for the info and any further thoughts are
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Bill Dill
>
>
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Bill,
	I had the same problem when I moved into my house 3 yrs ago. The lawn
had no grass all weeds. Here is what I did:

	1. Put black plastic on my yard (most of it) what I couldn't cover I
used roundup.
	2. I did 1. during the summer (I'm in zone 7). In the fall I tilled my
yard. I piled up leaves that I gathered from my neighbors on my yard which
helped kill the rest of the weeds. I tilled it again (tilling the leaves under)
I later realized that I should have used composted leaves. Then I planted the
seed. I kept the children off the yard (I only did the front so kids could play
in the back).
	3. I had great results come spring but in the summer fungus got my
grass (don't know if using leaves had anything to do with it.
	4. This time I rented a dethacher in Sept. dethached my yard (used
roundup to spot kill the problem weeds). Overseeded my yard. Good results but
last spring I used scotts to keep weeds out (maybe a mistake) so I am not doing
that this year. Last fall I overseeded again (grubs had gotten parts of my
lawn) I have fescue which should be overseeded every fall. Right now my grass
looks fairly good. I am not using any chemicals this yr and now kids are
allowed to play in it. I feel pretty good about it right now. But I am going to
have to get rid of some weeds. I haven't figured out how yet. I am thinking
about using cotton seed meal for fertilizer (anyone out there please give me
suggestions about cotton sead meal).

	I garden organically and I use black plastic to clear areas for my
garden. It is a long process (takes almost a whole summer).

	Good luck with your project. Yes we should be concerned about what we
use when we have kids. Every little bit helps.

Nisheeth
[email-masked]
All opinions are mine and not my employer or anybody else!!

---

From: [email-masked] (Don Bonner)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:53:27 GMT

>What is the best way to replace an existing lawn?  We live in Boulder, CO
>and have a backyard lawn which is atrocious.  There is so little top soil
>that I think the grass roots have nowhere to go.  So much thistle, dandelions
>and other "unknown non-grass entities".   We've tried to get the grass to
>respond to aeration and fertilization but doesn't.  So, what would be the
>best way to deal with this lawn?

>It sounds like the "Roundup solution" is a bit drastic and one would have
>to strip the dead grass before doing anything (ie. adding organic matter and
>topsoil as a good foundation for the new grass).  The rototilling everything
>and turning it under sounds like a good solution, but can someone expand on
>the whole process?  How long do I wait before seeding (or sodding if we go
>that route)?  Can I add organic matter and rototill it into the turned grass?
>Would it be OK to do this in the Spring?  Or better to wait until Fall?

Your want to hear what a Landscaper would do in your situation?

I would recomment that you kill your entire back lawn with Round-up.  Then you 
can deside how much work you want to do.
You can strip off the old lawn, rototill it and level it and bring in top soil 
and then either seed or sod.  THIS IS A LOT OF WORK FOR NOTHING.

I would kill the lawn and then cut the dead lawn as close to the ground as 
possible.  If you want to add some soil to fill in the low spots or build up 
the level of the lawn do so with sifted topsoil. (it's easier to work with)  
This throw on the new sod.  You don't have to strip off the old lawn or 
rototill the soil.  Most lawn are usually fairly level so why mess it up witha 
rototiller.  If your lawn is level and you dont' want to add any topsoil then 
just put the sod on the dead lawn.  It will grow just fine.  It's important 
that you cut the old lawn VERY close to the ground because the sod must be in 
contact with the soil in order to grow.  

If you want to seed your new lawn then spread a thin layer of topsoil over the 
area and through down your grass seed.  If you have anyother question give a 
shout.
*****************************************************************************
>From each according to their abilities.
To each according to their needs.
                                          [email-masked]
*****************************************************************************

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From: PATTIBELLE <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 23:59:54 -0500

Pat in Napa, CA

---

From: gracie!agrawal (Nisheeth Agrawal)
Date: 20 Mar 1995 15:18:07 GMT

Bill,

Nisheeth

---

From: [email-masked] (Don Bonner)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:53:27 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan K Poulsen)
Date: 25 Mar 1995 19:51:48 GMT

good advice from the contractor :-)

: >Would it be OK to do this in the Spring?  Or better to wait until Fall?

It would be better to wait until the fall, but we always have to work 
with what we have. Spring is better than summer.
By leaving the old lawn in place (cut very short), you will need less 
water, the ground will be more stable, and you will do less work (always 
a key goal)

		good luck

					Jonathan

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From: [email-masked] (Ed Griffin)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 10:26:32 -0500 (EST)

>my lawn will look better.

IF you still vacillate, note that I've used Roundup for about 15 years
(available from local farm suppliers long before general
availability), and I am happily asymptomatic, and not given to every
kind of raving paranoia about the dangers of ....everything....!

Use the damn stuff, wait 'til a good rain or sprinkling has washed it
off the surface, and forget it! (Be EXTREMELY careful of drift - it
will sicken or kill anything GREEN it touches (ONLY GREEN! I spray it
all over tree trunks, with naught a problem.).