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From: lflondon@mindspring.com
To: permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: (fwd) Grey Water
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:05:23 -0500
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:38:30 +1100, in alt.permaculture "Paul"
<tnt@apex.net.au> wrote:

Hi all.

I live in Canberra Australia, and want to use sand traps, reed beds
etc to
have a large water feature in our yard.  I envisage using grey water
from
the shower, bath basin and washing machine.  I am not sure what sort
of
primary filters etc to use.  I do not  want to use toilet or dish
washing
water.

I would like several ponds cascading down our back yard with a pump to
feed
back to the top.  I will have an over flow which will allow excess to
flow
into the stormwater or sewer, when the system is replenished by water
from
the house.

Has anyone had any experience with one of these, and what problems did
they
have, especially with the authorities?  The water people here are
pretty
good but I haven't approached them yet, as I would like to go in with
some
decent plans and ideas.

Thanks,

Paul

<><><><>
<><><><>

On 11 Feb 2001 20:18:16 +1000, in alt.permaculture dmoss@mydeja.com
(David Moss) wrote:

tnt@apex.net.au (Paul) wrote in <981855363.171581@draal2.apex.net.au>:

>I would like several ponds cascading down our back yard with a pump to
>feed back to the top.  I will have an over flow which will allow excess
>to flow into the stormwater or sewer, when the system is replenished by
>water from the house.

If you are going to use wastewater of any kind I can't see them
letting you=20
connect it to stormwater.

If you are going to use rainwater of any kind I can't see them letting
you=20
connect it to sewage.

In the former case you would end up raising the biochemical oxygen
demand=20
of whatever river or stream the stormwater ends up in, even if you
just use=20
washing and showering waste.

In the second, if everyone added stormwater to the sewage the system
would=20
not cope and it would end up raising the BOD of the Molongalo and=20
Murrumbidgee Rivers.

BTW I suggest you take a geko at a tertiery treatment pond in a sewage
works before you go ahead with this idea. I did a tour as part of=20
Engineering Science at DDIAE some years back. The secondary treatment
pond=20
looked much like any lake you see around here, fairly clear water,
fish,=20
waterbirds and frogs etc. Then they filtered it into another pond and=20
bubbled air through it. What a mess! They sell the brown crap that=20
precipitates out on day 2 as feritliser and burn the gas thats given
off to=20
generate power.

I wish you luck, what you propose would probably work well with a bit
of=20
land. See that the Mt Stromlo Obsevatory do with their grey waste for
an=20
example. In the suburbs though, I don't know.

David Moss
personal opinion only




From lflondon@mindspring.com Mon Feb 12 01:16:52 2001
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From: lflondon@mindspring.com
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Subject: (fwd) Re: Grey Water
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:16:52 -0500
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:15:02 GMT, in alt.permaculture "Reedbed"
<reedbed@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:


gardenlen <gardenlen@hotmail.com> wrote

> the dimensions of the reed bed will all important, and as i see it you
> shouldn't need any prefiltering for shower and laundry water, kitchen
> water can be used you just need to run it through a grease trap first.

Hi Paul, Len's said pretty much all I'd say on the matter.
Greywater is low in BOD and pathogen content, and so you're not at
risk of
polluting anything by just playing around with whatever fits in the
space...
I'd use a vertical flow reed bed as the first stage - basically this
is a
liner, water tank or plastic barrel filled with different grades of
gravel
in layers - big stones at the base for drainage and sharp sand on the
surface. The effluent floods the surface, flows quickly downwards and
away
to the next stage, getting aerated in the process. (ammoniacal N is
converted to nitrite)
Next, a sub-surface flow horizontal bed would convert the nitrite to
nitrate, which is then easily taken up by plants. The HFRB is a
shallow
lagoon filled with gravel. Effluent entering at the inlet end
displaces
cleaned effluent at the other end, and the bed always contains water
to just
below the gravel surface.
I wouldn't worry too much about sizing the beds - it's more a case of
fitting them to whatever you have at hand for lining them. (This would
be a
different matter if you were submitting a design for Building
Regulations
Approval etc - but in that case you'd really need to pay someone, and
I
don't suppose the job would cover my travel expenses :-)
If anything, you run the risk of providing too little nutrient to the
plants, rather than too much, in a greywater system.

After that, your water will be crystal clear, and you can add any
ponds,
marsh areas etc. Water from a living pond is the best stuff for
watering
food crops, so I'd forget the idea of overflowing to sewers etc, and
put in
enough storage in the final pond to water the garden, as Len
suggested.

I won't go into planting, since some of the native plants we use here
in
Ireland are (according to other alt.pc'ers) noxious weeds downunder.
Just
look around for whatever grows wild in wet areas - the most useful
plants in

reed beds are all Graminae (grasses) - reeds, bulrushes etc.

Our website gives a little more background info -
http://surf.to/NaturalTechnology and there are loads of resources on
the web
covering reed bed construction - you can't get into trouble if you're
only
treating greywater - but of course blackwater would be another matter.

HTH
Mark

=46rom: "Haig" <haigja@optushome.com.au>
Newsgroups:
alt.hipcrime.engr.wastewater,alt.permaculture,alt.wastewater,aus.gardens,=
canb.general
Subject: Re: Grey Water
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:22:31 GMT

Paul

Len is spot on about the size of components. I suspect you would need
a
fairly big reed bed or other nutrient removal scheme to do it. Then
there
will be the nutrient imbalance problem. Lotsa phosphates in cleaning
products but no nitrogen. So the removal bed will only clean up as
much P as
the N will allow, then you will be stuck with high P in your system
just
waiting for some nutrient input to cause an unexpected bloom...
probably of
an unacceptable type like blue-green algae. Could add N I suppose but
the
bed would need to be bigger. It really is requiring monitoring and
design
beyond just a simple DIY project.

Then there are the microbiologicals. Most local authorities ban any
sprinkling of grey water due to pathogens. I suspect they will see
cascades
as having similar tho reduced problems.

As Len says, the better option seems to be to use the grey water for
soakage
watering of plants and the water you save, augmented with stormwater
could
go into your system for make-up.  If you design as impermeable a base
as
possible for your feature, make-up will only have to cope with
evaporation.

Good luck, Jim Haig






From lflondon@mindspring.com Wed Feb 14 15:26:29 2001
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Subject: (fwd) Re: Grey Water
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On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:52:26 GMT, in alt.permaculture "Reedbed"
<reedbed@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:


Haig <haigja@optushome.com.au> wrote in message

> Len is spot on about the size of components. I suspect you would need a
> fairly big reed bed or other nutrient removal scheme to do it. Then =
there
> will be the nutrient imbalance problem. Lotsa phosphates in cleaning
> products but no nitrogen. So the removal bed will only clean up as much=
 P
> as the N will allow, then you will be stuck with high P in your system =
just
> waiting for some nutrient input to cause an unexpected bloom... =
probably
> of an unacceptable type like blue-green algae. Could add N I suppose =
but the
> bed would need to be bigger.

Could you explain how N and P are dependent on each other for removal
???

TIA
Mark

<><><>

On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:28:01 GMT, in alt.permaculture "Haig"
<haigja@optushome.com.au> wrote:

Mark,

my understanding is that any biological nutrient system is dependent
on the
food requirements of the species chosen. Apart from the micro
nutrients
(trace elements), living organisms need a balance of their major
nutrients
(N, P, K, C, etc) to grow and reproduce. This introduces the concept
of a
"limiting nutrient", one which is essential to the species and despite
all
the other nutrients being present in abundance, will prevent further
expansion of the species because it is at lower than balance levels. A
typical example is diatoms and their need for silica. Diatom blooms
often
follow an influx of water after rain which has disturbed sediments and
released more dissolved silica.  Getting back to a nutrient removal
system.
Greywater in particular is extremely rich in phosphorous (phosphates
ex
cleaning products) and carbon (sugars, etc from kitchen) and silica
(also ex
cleaning products). Nitrogen is not a big constituent (unless you
include
some toilet waste) and in this type of system becomes a limiting
nutrient.
(remember, even well-treated sewerage contains high P levels even
after
optimised bio-removal through a well-controlled plant).  That is why I
suggest that a recirculating system as Paul proposed can sit there
percolating away with very high nutrient levels but little growth.
Then,
when someone fertilises the garden and excess nitrogen washes in,
bang, a
bloom, but probably of an undesirable species such as algae..... in
short
the green slimey masses you see in drains and stagnant creeks.

But, of course bio-removal can be done. But you have to design a
system with
the right species (those with high requirements for the excess
nutrients),
with the size capacity to cope with the levels (there are bulk
phosphates in
grey water!) and possibly care for the sytem with as much attention as
you
give your swimming pool  -  only NPK etc analyses aren't cheap.

Anyone who takes on such a project gets my full support for
environmental
responsibility and get up and go. Just be aware of the chemistry and
the
hazards associated with grey water aerosols and diffuse pollution
issues,
viz.  high P seeps into water table from Pauls water feature (and
someone
elses septic and someone elses weekly car washing ) and at the spring
in the
next valley to you trails a fetid mass of slime.

Good luck,  Jim


<><><><>


On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:38:25 GMT, in alt.permaculture Ellen Hrebeniuk
<ehrebeniuk@optushome.com.au> wrote:

In article <981855363.171581@draal2.apex.net.au>, "Paul"=20
<tnt@apex.net.au> asked about grey water systems.

Try looking up back issues of Earth garden and similar magazines, and=20
also read Michael Mobbs' book "Sustainable House".  He's managed to=20
dispose of his *sewerage* as well as grey water on his property in=20
Chippendale!

Ellen Hrebeniuk
Sydney

<><><><>









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I have Council approved reed bed treatment systems here at Djanbung Gardens
one is for grey water
The grey water goes through a simple grease trap then into the reed beds - ferrous
cement beds 500mm deep filled with
12-15mm gravel planted with Phragmites Australis (2m2 per person surface area is
acceptable to health authorities. The treated water goes into an open holding pond
planted with water lilies, iris and other aquatic plants
Southern Cross University, Lismore has further info

Robyn Francis


lflondon@mindspring.com wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:38:30 +1100, in alt.permaculture "Paul"
> <tnt@apex.net.au> wrote:
>
> Hi all.
>
> I live in Canberra Australia, and want to use sand traps, reed beds
> etc to
> have a large water feature in our yard.  I envisage using grey water
> from
> the shower, bath basin and washing machine.  I am not sure what sort
> of
> primary filters etc to use.  I do not  want to use toilet or dish
> washing
> water.
>
> I would like several ponds cascading down our back yard with a pump to
> feed
> back to the top.  I will have an over flow which will allow excess to
> flow
> into the stormwater or sewer, when the system is replenished by water
> from
> the house.
>
> Has anyone had any experience with one of these, and what problems did
> they
> have, especially with the authorities?  The water people here are
> pretty
> good but I haven't approached them yet, as I would like to go in with
> some
> decent plans and ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
> <><><><>
> <><><><>
>
> On 11 Feb 2001 20:18:16 +1000, in alt.permaculture dmoss@mydeja.com
> (David Moss) wrote:
>
> tnt@apex.net.au (Paul) wrote in <981855363.171581@draal2.apex.net.au>:
>
> >I would like several ponds cascading down our back yard with a pump to
> >feed back to the top.  I will have an over flow which will allow excess
> >to flow into the stormwater or sewer, when the system is replenished by
> >water from the house.
>
> If you are going to use wastewater of any kind I can't see them
> letting you
> connect it to stormwater.
>
> If you are going to use rainwater of any kind I can't see them letting
> you
> connect it to sewage.
>
> In the former case you would end up raising the biochemical oxygen
> demand
> of whatever river or stream the stormwater ends up in, even if you
> just use
> washing and showering waste.
>
> In the second, if everyone added stormwater to the sewage the system
> would
> not cope and it would end up raising the BOD of the Molongalo and
> Murrumbidgee Rivers.
>
> BTW I suggest you take a geko at a tertiery treatment pond in a sewage
> works before you go ahead with this idea. I did a tour as part of
> Engineering Science at DDIAE some years back. The secondary treatment
> pond
> looked much like any lake you see around here, fairly clear water,
> fish,
> waterbirds and frogs etc. Then they filtered it into another pond and
> bubbled air through it. What a mess! They sell the brown crap that
> precipitates out on day 2 as feritliser and burn the gas thats given
> off to
> generate power.
>
> I wish you luck, what you propose would probably work well with a bit
> of
> land. See that the Mt Stromlo Obsevatory do with their grey waste for
> an
> example. In the suburbs though, I don't know.
>
> David Moss
> personal opinion only
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: permed@nor.com.au
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu
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Subject: (fwd) Re: Grey Water
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On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:21:07 GMT, in alt.permaculture "Reedbed"
<reedbed@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:



Haig <haigja@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:5%Ai6.17847$lI2.19696@news1.rochd1.qld.optushome.com.au...
> Mark,
>
> my understanding is that any biological nutrient system is dependent on
the
> food requirements of the species chosen. Apart from the micro nutrients
> (trace elements), living organisms need a balance of their major =
nutrients
> (N, P, K, C, etc) to grow and reproduce. This introduces the concept of=
 a
> "limiting nutrient",

Thanks for that - obvious really, when you explain it that way - but I
think
I misread your original post, thinking that you meant that N and P are
_chemically_ dependant on each other.
=46rom my own reading of the situation, reed bed systems themselves are
not
great at removing P over long periods. However, the removal mechanisms
are
not _all_ biological. (Biological P removal can be in the range of 30
to
50%). Gravel-based beds are better than soil, but P removal depends on
the
iron content of the substrate, and eventually reaches saturation.
Most of the long term P removal is best carried out after the
treatment
system in a soil-based leachfield or a wet woodland, where adsorption,
complexation and precipitation are enhanced by a high clay content -
using a
mixture of plant/grass species, P removal can reach 99%.

Low-P and no-P washing powders, cleaners etc are fairly common
nowadays, and
are a Good Thing - whatever the eventual method of wastewater
treatment.

Mark







From M.S.OKeeffe@uq.net.au Fri Feb 16 08:49:12 2001
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Newsgroups: alt.hipcrime.engr.wastewater,alt.permaculture,alt.wastewater,aus.gardens,canb.general
Subject: Re: Grey Water
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:49:12 +1000
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One of the keys to making any nutrient stripping system work is a harvest.
Nobody has mentioned that.  Without a harvest, the uptake of nutrients by
reeds, or whatever, will drop off, and nutrients will build up in the
system.  You need to harvest biomass, to remove the nutrients.  So what will
you do with the harvested material?  I'm not suggesting this is a stumbling
block, just something you have to consider in your design and planning.
Having designed some of these things myself, I think your best bet might be
to reconsider.  Is your objective to have ponds or is your objective to
dispose of nutrients?  If it is the latter, I would opt for a small orchard
with a subsurface irrigation system.  Make it big enough that you can shift
where you are irrigating.  You need some good figures on quality of grey
water, and, if you use land disposal you need some good soil tests.  You
need to do a lot of work.  As for the house in Sydney...  I watched that
programme.  It was very interesting and informative.  One of the big things
it got across was just how much work is involved in maintaining a system in
working order.
Scott O'Keeffe

Reedbed wrote in message ...
>
>
>Haig <haigja@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
>news:5%Ai6.17847$lI2.19696@news1.rochd1.qld.optushome.com.au...
>> Mark,
>>
>> my understanding is that any biological nutrient system is dependent on
>the
>> food requirements of the species chosen.



