From IkerdJ@missouri.edu Tue Aug 31 12:46:10 1999 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:16:50 -0500 From: "Ikerd, John E." To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: "Unrelated" discussions?? Defintely related. [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] Sanet; I agree with Anita - even it that only makes two of us. I don't think you can have a meaningful discussing of sustainability that excludes spirituality. Spirituality and religion are not the same things - although we are not likely to have a discussion of one without the other. To me, spirituality simply means a felt need to be in harmony with some higher order of things. With regard to spirituality, I don't think it really matters whether one refers to this higher order as God, nature, or something else. Spirituality is simply a belief that we can't just do whatever we please here on earth, that we can't necessarily fix anything that we might mess up, that we won't necessarily find a substitute for every resource that we use up, that human technology is not the answer to every human ill, and that the market is not God. We have to conform to some higher order of things rather than bend and twist nature to things to fit every whim. Sustainability ultimately is about intergenerational equity - to meet the needs of the present while leaving equal or better opportunities for the future. Most seem to agree that sustainable systems must be economically viable, ecologically sound, and socially responsible. Economic viability is about self interest - meeting our own needs today and tomorrow. Social responsibility is mostly about shared interest - meeting needs which we share with others within families, communities, nations, society, today and tomorrow. Ecological sustainability in mostly about altruistic interests - meeting the needs of others, needs which go beyond our own selfish interests or interests that we share with others. Certainly, we may gain personally from a healthy environment today, as does the rest of society. But we have no narrow self interest, nor do we have a shared societal interest, in protecting and conserving resources for all future generations. We won't be here, no one we know will be here, we may not even have any descendents here on earth when those resources are used. Spirituality is interconnected with self interests and with shared interests, but it is the central issue in altruistic interests, which in turn is central to ecological sustainability. We are concerned about ecological "sustainability" only if we have some felt need to live in harmony with some higher order of things - if we are spiritual. If we do not believe in a higher order, or do not feel a need to find harmony with it, there is no logical reason to be concerned about whether or not people thousands of years from now will have opportunities equal to or better than we have today. They can take care of themselves. We have to clean up messes left by people in the past, so they can clean up ours. They can find a replacement for anything we use up. Future technology will take care of any problem that arises. And, the market is perfectly capable of allocating scarce resources over time. If we exclude spirituality from our discussion of sustainability, we exclude ecological "sustainability" from our discussion as well. We could still talk about individual and societal environmental risks of the present, but conserving and protecting resources for the indefinite future would make no sense. Any discussion of spirituality should be thoughtful and considerate - respectful of the opinions and beliefs of all. After all we are not talking about anything we can prove. A higher order, by definition, is something above and beyond us. We can't contain and subject it to us, because we are contained within it are subject to it. Spirituality will always be about belief, -- not fact. Hopefully, the inevitable discussions of religion that will accompany discussions of spirituality can be thoughtful and considerate as well - respectful not only of all opinions and beliefs but also of the "feelings" of others. But, I sincerely hope that we will not prohibit the discussion of spirituality, and therefore the discussion of sustainability, on the sustainable agriculture network, simply because discussions of religion oftentimes become uncomfortable. John Ikerd -----Original Message----- From: Anita Graf (Staff) [mailto:agraf@agecon.uga.edu] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:46 AM To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: "unrelated" discussions > Man, I can't believe the arrogance of some people. > > Really guys, this isn't a religious forum, its about agriculture. > Wouldn't it be more polite if you were to exchange personal email to > talk about religion, or go to a group dedicated to that subject? Why > clutter up this forum with unrelated discussion? > > Son of Richard Man, I can't believe how narrow minded some people can be, SOR! This "agriculture" forum is about a lot more than giving recomendations about proper cover crops or where to buy a grain thresher. It's about agriculture in the context of the whole human being and in the context of nature. It requires a lot of "outside the box" thinking. It also requires decision-making that might not always make sense given current market signals. Clearly, there are a lot of people who can see how a discussion of ethics and spirituality fits with sustainable ag. We're not discussing how many angels fit on the top of a pin, we're looking at the very motivation and moral impetus that leads people to support and carry out sustainable farming even in times of adversity and social disdain. Anita To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". 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