Subject: Re: Fatality after consuming hallucingenic mushrooms

From: Richard Kahn and Tiffany Winne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 10:05:55 +0000

Nice Joe-
I was going to say the same thing yesterday; but then thought it was so 
obvious that this guy who ate the 50 mushrooms was acting irresponsibly, 
I decided not to comment.  My mind changed overnight, however; and I was 
glad to see your post this morning.  I've said it before- while I would in no 
way look to constrain the freedom of the posters to the newsgroups, as I 
feel that in sharing any and all info. lies the chance at Truth, Honesty, and 
ultimately, Wisdom, I am often saddened that alt.drugs groups (which I 
think so interesting and important) are often dominated by tales of 
ignorance and irresponsibility.  It is all our duty to point out cases where 
peoples irresponsiblity, because when we do not, time has shown us that 
drastic measures are almost always taken against the 
thing-in-question-used, rather than the person (so much) his/herself.
Again- we all have made and will make stupid decisions, but the Beauty of 
our species is that we can learn from them, and so prescribe caution.
peace, 
RIchard   
-- 
______________________________________________
Richard and Tiffany (richard @user1.channel1.com)
HTTP://www.channel1.com/users/richard
"The Truth is not always beautiful, nor Beauty truthful."---Lao Tze
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
  some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the 
time."---Abraham Lincoln
"Pass the Gin..."---I said that.
_____________________________________________

---

From: Thomas O'Dell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:30:25 -0700

Most fatalities allegedly due to Psilocybe species are actually from other
mushrooms that are mis-identified. Who identified the mushrooms in
question and how confident are they that only one species was consumed?
Were stomach contents examined, etc...
There is absolutely no reason to beleive that P. semilanceata could cause
death in a human, unless perhaps from some sort of allergic reaction.
Contrary to other posts on this thread 50 specimens of P. semilanceata is
probably not an unreasonable dose particularly if dried. Since this is a
fall fruiting species I presume that they must have been dried, which
causes a reduction in potentcy.

On 3 Jun 1996, Alain Gerault wrote:

> WARNING !
> A young man died from an overdose after consuming Psilocybe semilanceata. With
DELETED...

Dr. Thomas E. O'Dell
[email-masked]
Dept. of Botany, Box 355325
University of Washington
Seattle, WA, 98195-5325

---

From: [email-masked] (morled)
Date: 4 Jun 1996 21:26:29 GMT

[email-masked] (Alain Gerault) wrote:

> a group of friends,he had consumed more than 50 of these mushrooms in three 
> intakes on the same day. 
> Left unattended, he died on the very evening after a few-hour-long coma.

Semilanceata are relatively weak psilocybes. It takes 20 to 40 mushrooms
to produce a hallucinogenic effect. More likely, this man accidentally
ingested a few poisonous non-psilocybe specimens.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tryggvi Emilsson)
Date: 4 Jun 1996 16:31:22 -0700

> ingested a few poisonous non-psilocybe specimens.

Also, what was the source to the mushrooms??? Did the victim pick them
himself, or did he buy "mushrooms" form some slimy pusher??? In that
case,they could easily have been any "LBM's" (even including P.Semilan-
ceata...),laced with any witch's brew of chemicals(eg.strychnine,
phencyclidine,etc.).

T.Emilsson

---

From: [email-masked] (Mycos)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:37:11 GMT

>our species is that we can learn from them, and so prescribe caution.

Irresponsible or not misses the point. Ingesting 50+ mushrooms isn't
THAT uncommon. Dying from it is extremely uncommon.

---

From: [email-masked] (Mycos)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 13:34:17 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

>Joe Yandle wrote:
>> Alain Gerault wrote:
>> > : email :
>> > [email-masked]
>> if i drink a gallon of water in a day, it is harmless.  yet if i drank
>> 50 gallons, i would probably die a painful death.  does this mean that
>> water can now be considered deadly?  i think that it means that if
>> you're stupid enough to eat 50 psychedelic mushrooms in a day, you've
>> reaped what you've sown.  what a way to die.
>> 

>How big are the mushrooms of this species anyway?  I've eaten way over 
>100 stunzii at a time, but they are tiny.  If this "fatal" species is 
>anything near in size to cubensis, this frog musta been fuckin' nuts!!!

P. semilanceata is much smaller than stuntzii but it is quite strong.
However 50 isn't a "terminal" dose. On Vancouver Island, where they
grow seemingly everywhere, there's a "Mushroom King" tradition
where the idea is to beat the record for most eaten. Eating more than
50 has surely happened often in pursuit of the "crown". I myself have
eaten numbers approaching that. 
   Alain sent me a medical report on the poisoning in question and it
is quite complete. An autopsy and gastric contents analysis was done.
Other drugs were absent. Spores of semilanceata were present.Spores of
other fungi were absent.The conclusion was is that he collapsed , went
into a coma, and died after eating the mushrooms.
   However, in my opinion, the response still  must have been an
idiosyncratic one owing to the many instances of people eating as many
or more. My conclusion; Don't worry about it!

---

From: [email-masked] (Beat Kuert)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 00:00:20 GMT

>anything near in size to cubensis, this frog musta been fuckin' nuts!!!

Actually this death report looks highly suspect to me, I know many
people who have eaten way more than 100 Psilocybe semilanceata...
While this is quite stupid it isn't anywhere near the LD-50...
P. semilanceata is a tiny mushroom too, so 50 aren't really  a lot!

Lucius Kuert

---

From: [email-masked] (David N. Gaines)
Date: 5 Jun 1996 14:51:40 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>Left unattended, he died on the very evening after a few-hour-long coma.

Lapsing into coma for a few hours and dying? The symptoms of his death do 
not sound like any I have heard of from typical mushroom poisoning. Thus, 
if he had ingested some other toxic species along with his original dose 
there would have been a characteristic reaction to that toxin.  
Psilocibe semilanceata are quite small and 50 does not sound like a huge 
ammount.  Could he have eaten something else which greatly synergized the 
psilocibin or some other component?  Was it an alergic reaction?  Did 
this happen in France, and does that region have a subspecies of P. 
semilanceata which contains additional neurotoxic substances not found in 
the North American species?   A more complete pathology report would shed 
light on this issue.
David Gaines (dgaines @vt.edu)

---

From: [email-masked] (David N. Gaines)
Date: 5 Jun 1996 15:23:45 GMT

Lapsing into coma for a few hours and dying? The symptoms of his death do 
not sound like any I have heard of from typical mushroom poisoning. Thus, 
if he had ingested some other toxic species along with his original dose 
there would have been a characteristic reaction to that toxin.  Psilocybe 
semilanceata are quite small and 50 does not sound like a massively huge 
ammount.  Could he have eaten something else which greatly synergized the 
psilocybin or some other component?  Was it an alergic reaction?  Did 
this happen in France, and does that region have a subspecies of  P. 
semilanceata which contains additional neurotoxic substances not found in 
the North American species?   A more complete pathology report would shed 
light on this issue.

---

From: Joseph Zorzin <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 11:57:18 -0400

Alain Gerault wrote:

> Summary :
> The authors report the fatality of a 22-year-old man after he and a group of
> friends voluntarily consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms, in this case Psilocybe
> semilanceata (Fr. : Fr.) Kummer. According to the best of our knowledge, this
> cosmopolitan species had never caused any fatality, this is the first
> observation of this type ever made in the world, so the so-called inocuousness
> of halluninogenic muhrooms is now questionned.
> 
> : email :
> [email-masked]

Yuh, but he took 50? That many asperin would surely kill you too.

---

From: [email-masked] (David Pinero)
Date: 6 Jun 1996 01:44:12 GMT

Psilocybe cubensis is a highly allergenic mushroom. It is considered one 
of the best sources for Basidiomycete allergy studies. Patient sera 
reacts frequently. I wouldn't be surprised by deaths caused by 
anaphylactic shocks after consuming PC.

David

---

From: Richard Kahn and Tiffany Winne <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:36:05 +0000

After my post, I would like to thank the posters who offered correction on 
P. semilanceata, and apologize as well.  In fact, while I hold by what I said- 
and 50 still sounds like a lot to me, I am unfamiliar with this species.  I 
suppose I was going on the idea that is was similar to P. cubensis.  Again, 
my apologies and thanks...this is what makes this newsgroup great in my 
opinion- the information available.
Finally, however, the point was brought up that 50 was not "terminal"; 
suppossedly to defend the dosage.  But this is exactly what I am against- 
people, especially young people, should not be risking anywhere's near a 
"terminal" dosage.  If the term even crosses one's mind, one should slow 
way down and think long and hard about what they are up to.  Classically 
speaking, such "terminal" or near-"terminal" doses are for Shamans 
alone, or suicides.  I see little of the former these days as  I look around 
me, but sadly, all too many of the latter.   Peace,  Richard
-- 
______________________________________________
Richard and Tiffany (richard @user1.channel1.com)
HTTP://www.channel1.com/users/richard
"The Truth is not always beautiful, nor Beauty truthful."---Lao Tze
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
  some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the 
time."---Abraham Lincoln
"Pass the Gin..."---I said that.
_____________________________________________

---

From: [email-masked] (Claude de Contrecoeur)
Date: 7 Jun 1996 22:51:54 GMT

>David Gaines (dgaines @vt.edu)
I know people who ate Psilocybé semilanceata for YEARS in France with No poisoning.
Claude

---

From: [email-masked] (Claude de Contrecoeur)
Date: 7 Jun 1996 22:54:33 GMT

>P. semilanceata is a tiny mushroom too, so 50 aren't really  a lot!
Tchao Lucius!
Could you send me psilocybe semilanceata to grow here?
How many are needed to have a hallucinogenic effect?
I am growing now Salvia divinorum.
Claude
PS:More people are reporting about the ad effects of G-OH!

---

From: [email-masked] (Beat Kuert)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:16:20 GMT

>me, but sadly, all too many of the latter.   Peace,  Richard

Well this is a decision we have to make for ourselves...
The point is that 50 P. semilanceates is NO WHERE NEAR THE lethal
dosage, I already stated that I know people who have eaten about 150
FRESH (thus more powerful) P.semilanceatas....

I also think this is stupid because increasing the dosage after a
certain point makes no difference but USUALLY it isn't fatal. What I
mean: I believe that someone died but I think:

a) The death cause was not P.semilanceata but something else.
b) This person had an extreme reaction to the mushroom, this
definitively isn't common.

Lucius Kuert

---

From: [email-masked] (Mycos)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:26:21 GMT

>Yuh, but he took 50? That many asperin would surely kill you too.

Just some useless info for ya. The LD50 (Lethal Dose ) rate for
aspirin is 1000 mg./kg. The math works out to : for a 175lb. man
eating aspirin at 325mg./tablet=approx. 240 tablets. I know your going
to want to file that away for future reference somewhere!

---

From: [email-masked] (Mycos)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 17:57:20 GMT

>"Pass the Gin..."---I said that.

Dear Folks, 

I didn't mean to defend the mindset of the individual who took the 50
but only the fact that eating that many was highly unlikely to result
in death. The rest of your points are well taken though and because of
that I wish to apologize for my curt response to your posting. 

                                       Gary Williams (Mycos)

---

From: [email-masked] (Weasel Tracks)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:31:47 -0500

I just read more details concerning this case in another post by Alain. It
answers most of my questions.

   ---Weasel Tracks

-- 
Telling the truth when    | "I'm just a sucker for recursive logic."
   I say that I am lying, |
no one believes me.       | http://home.earthlink.net/~weaseltrax

--pseudohaiku by Vincent Grzybowski

---

From: [email-masked] (Weasel Tracks)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 19:16:46 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>, Richard Kahn and Tiffany

> me, but sadly, all too many of the latter.   Peace,  Richard

Richard‹‹
   I also find it doubtful that a psilocybe species would cause death at
that dosage. More information would be welcome. I would like to know if I
am wrong.
   That the person would ingest it in three stages in one day says
something. On the one hand, it makes it less likely that the dosage was at
or near terminal, as the previous doses would have been at least partially
metabolized at each ingestion. On the other hand, it seems like a pattern
of reckless "getting high," which may have been accompanied by other
substances. Any information on this?
   Another question: Was he the only one eating this many? Did anyone else
have any adverse effects?

   ---Weasel Tracks

---

From: [email-masked] (H.R. Coyle)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:45:13 +0100 (BST)

> Left unattended, he died on the very evening after a few-hour-long coma.

I'm new to this group, but felt I had to just say hello here and add to the 
alarmingly small number of people posting with some idea of the huge 
distortions implied in the above report.

I live in the UK and Psilocybe Semilanceata is very common here, and is as 
synonymous with hallucinogenic mushrooms as Stropharia Cubensis seems to be 
in the states. They are *tiny*. My regular dose for a light trip (or going to 
a rave) is 40 dried P. sem. I have taken up to 100, and have friends who have 
taken around 500 dried specimens. It's an intense trip, but obviously not 
lethal. Obviously, the above tragedy was due to some other factor.

I hope some more information is forthcoming from Alain on this matter, 
because it's a highly irresponsible piece of misinformation to proclaim this 
event as a "warning" to users of P. sem. It could give someone a nasty trip 
if they had the above info floating around their mind as they do a perfectly 
reasonable dose of mushrooms.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bradley B. Woods)
Date: 12 Jun 1996 23:41:30 GMT

Joseph Zorzin ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Alain Gerault wrote:

: > Summary :
: > The authors report the fatality of a 22-year-old man after he and a group of
: > friends voluntarily consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms, in this case Psilocybe
: > semilanceata (Fr. : Fr.) Kummer. According to the best of our knowledge, this
: > cosmopolitan species had never caused any fatality, this is the first
: > observation of this type ever made in the world, so the so-called inocuousness
: > of halluninogenic muhrooms is now questionned.
: > 
: > : email :
: > [email-masked]

: Yuh, but he took 50? That many asperin would surely kill you too.

No, it's more like 75 aspirin is approaching a lethal dose.

---

From: [email-masked] (Matthew McGrath)
Date: 13 Jun 1996 13:18:18 GMT

Bradley B. Woods ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Joseph Zorzin ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : Alain Gerault wrote:

: : > Summary :
: : > The authors report the fatality of a 22-year-old man after he and a group of
: : > friends voluntarily consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms, in this case Psilocybe
: : > semilanceata (Fr. : Fr.) Kummer. According to the best of our knowledge, this
: : > cosmopolitan species had never caused any fatality, this is the first
: : > observation of this type ever made in the world, so the so-called inocuousness
: : > of halluninogenic muhrooms is now questionned.
: : > 
: : > : email :
: : > [email-masked]

: : Yuh, but he took 50? That many asperin would surely kill you too.

: No, it's more like 75 aspirin is approaching a lethal dose.

any higher amount could kill you.  aspirin works very differently in 
different people, making one person's safe high dose lethal in another.  
the mathematical representation is polynomial bifurcation.

---

From: [email-masked] (Psilocin12)
Date: 14 Jun 1996 14:06:56 -0400

Just read your reply to the "Fatality" post! I'm still laughing! Great
post!

What types of people subsribe to this newsgroup? Are they all professional
myco types?

Thanks for any help you can offer!

Dude, You should have been here yesterday, it was double
overhead!-Psilocin12

---

From: [email-masked] (Mycos)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:06:57 GMT

>the mathematical representation is polynomial bifurcation.
LD50 of aspirin: 250 / 175 lb. man