Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:04:55 -0700 (PDT)

Gene Monaco wrote 10/24/97 and Scott Pittman replies 10/24/97
>Folks, I agree that perhaps this discussion has gotten out of hand
>emotionally, but I think there are serious issues here nevertheless.  The
>issue of accrediation has come up before.  There are many folks working in
>the kingdoms of corporatia or officia (read government) that can get
>reimbursment for courses that are accrediated.  This would help struggling
>consultants.

The PRIMARY reason for accreditation is because some of the permaculture
graduates want degrees, for whatever reason!  Some think they will have a
better crack at changing corporate practices if they carry equivalent degree
certification as the corporate people they are talking to.  Some think it
gives them more credibility in the mainstream culture, I happen to agree
that it opens doors but once in the door you have to perform and a degree is
no guarantee of performance.  Some hope that they will be able to make a
better living with an MS or PhD tacked to their names, I wish them luck.

>Everybody knows that that accrediation was created to weed out the
>charlatans, and that in that proces, some slip through the cracks and
>others get left out.  I think many of us agree that permaculturists have
>been left out.  
>
I think that the charlatans get in no matter what you do.  I don't think a
degree guarantees that one is not a charlatans.  Have a look at all the
degrees in Congress!!

>Once someone steps up and claims to be the holder of the keys to the
>standards, it will cause riffs among the other pioneers who are around. 
>And pioneers aren't likely to give up ground any more than they do in
>nature; but succession persists nevertheless.

Noone to my knowlege is claiming to hold keys to standards.  The standards
as they exist now are pretty much what they have been from the first
permaculture course, and are encapsulated in "Permaculture A Designer's
Manual".  I have attended more courses than I can recall and I have seen
very little that is new as far as standards are concerned.  New information
is added as it is made available by students, teachers, designers, other
scientists, etc. but basically we are still working from the original course
outline.  I also find this true internationally.  The few courses I have
seen that claimed to be "a new curriculum" were concerned with divas,
fairies, self help, meditation techniques, etc. the usual "new age" cop out
from doing the grunt work necessary to heal the planet and our culture.
Curriculum as we have looked at it from the point of view of the
Permaculture Academy and accreditation has been using the designer's manual
as well as trying to find comparable texts for history, math, English, and
other "required subjects".  

Given a chance we will involve as many people as want to be but first we
have to have a structure in place to receive this information and criticism.
This must be one of the most paranoid cultures anywhere - everyone is afraid
that they are somehow so critical to any process that they take potshots
before anything happens!  The Permaculture Academy is not the Permaculture
Institute is not Permaculture Drylands, etc. got it?  
  
>Perhaps its time for the P.Institute to extend an invitation to those
>previously left out of the process, kinda like they did in Philadelphia
>200-some years ago.  I think we'd all be the better off for it all.

When the Permaculture Institute is finally funded and can afford postage
stamps and has someone to man the phone, computer, and letters then we can
invite others to the party.  Until then we are a few permaculture people
with a few ideas and if they are good ideas they will grow and find people
who will participate, if they are bad ideas they will soon be forgotten.  I
have faith in this process of attrition or survival of the most well thought
out. 

I have tried to design by a committee of twenty or thirty and find out that
I never get anything done and spend a hell of a lot of time massaging egos.
No thanks!

Having said all of this I think if we, as permaculture teachers, designers,
practitioners are to be successful in the short term, which to my mind is
the only term we have, we will have to organize ourselves to work as a
national and international entity.  As Bill says we are an elephant acting
like a mouse. I am open to any help we can get in trying to set up some kind
of unified front organization/s, but I am not interested in collecting
points in a debating club.

Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Ingenio Patet Campus

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From: Andrew Erb <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:20:02 -0500 (CDT)

I have no "training"  I would like to learn more about permaculture.  
The most useful learning tool for me  would be books, are Bill Mollison's 
books a good starting point?  I'm convinced that even though permaculture 
has great ideas that could change the world it won't happen without 
unification (as you  state in a recent post).  Specifically what can 
each of us do to spread the word, get more people involved, if we don't then
all the 
effort may be in vain.  I think that I will print up some information 
sheets and start talking to people in my area, Mid Missouri, I know there 
are a few people around who share similar values.  I also think its 
important to reach those who don't have similar values, or have not yet 
considered that how we live our lives affects the health of the planet 
and the sustainability of mankind.  Without the cooperation of our 
communities we have nothing, simply walling ourselves off and saying that 
good ideas will catch on if they are good enough won't work.  People 
that I have talked to about what we can do to save the planet and 
ourselves, in general seem to be unaware that there are problems and when 
problems are pointed out they do not seem to grasp the magnitude and 
urgency of them.  I suppose unless it affects them personally or we 
educate them enough (I should include information about environmental 
problems and starvation in the info sheets I hand out) they 
will not understand.  I beleive that permaculture is a great concept and 
that it's time has come, and really want to help make the planet a safer 
more hospitable place to live.  I really need help in the Mid Missouri 
area to learn and then educate others.  If anyone knows anyone in the 
Jefferson City / Columbia Missouri area who would be helpful please let 
me know.  Person to person 
communication is one of the keys and is something I will attempt to do 
more of as I hope everyone will. I want to thank all those who have 
helped me to learn what I know about 
permaculture (which may not be volumes, but non the less has value to me 
and hopefully to others with whom I share what I have learned.  
Over the last year or so I have sampled this list and communicated with 
a few people,  thank you (speciffically to Dan H.) I want to make the next 
step and practice what I have learned.  If anyone in the Jefferson City / 
Columbia Missouri area is interested in working together and creating a 
more sustainble community please contact me.  I'm interested in starting 
organic gardens and have a tentative site at an elementary school here in 
Jefferson City, and would like to get as much volunteer help as possible 
and hopefully start or inspire more sites.  I think that growing organic 
food is a great way for kids to learn about the earth, eating healthy, and
compasion for others who are less frotunate.

Andrew Erb
[email-masked]
573-636-8731

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From: Andrew Erb <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:20:02 -0500 (CDT)

Andrew Erb
[email-masked]
573-636-8731