Subject: Re: (permaculture) Hello

From: Linda Felch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:49 -0400 (EDT)

you wrote:
Then, about two years
ago we began trying to follow Permaculture principles and this has
worked out fairly well.  Unfortunatly, there does not seem to be many
others on this path.  Most people on the net seem interested in
teaching or are part of intentional communities.  I had hoped to find
people talking about how they work with their site.  Specifically,
ponds, forest gardens, guilds, cover crops, ducks, and mental
attitudes are of interest.

end quote

Well, I'm afraid that I live at an intentional community that does 
permaculture education. However, we are also a permaculture demonstration 
site. There is a pond on property that we are about to purchase, so we 
look forward to incorporating that into our design. We recently expanded 
out forest garden area with the addition of elderberries, gooseberries, 
high-bush blue berries. We're also looking to do more with this area -- 
we're expecting a shipment from Edible Landscaping in another week 
that'll have some bush cherries and a cold hardy plant that's supposed to 
be similar to a date (don't remember the name). We've also done some work 
with guilds, although our favorite example got wiped out by a flood, 
which has prompted us to put more perennials on that side of the garden! 
We're experiementing with buckwheat as a cover crop this year. Our newest 
member brought 4 ducks and 2 goats with her, which we are also workingon 
incorporating. So far we've been using the animals to provide us with 
enriched straw for sheet mulching (old bedding) and the animals have been 
getting most of our kitchen scraps, which cuts down on rodents and dogs 
in the compost pile.

Mental attitudes -- we got 'em. Which kind are you interested in?

Linda Felch
[email-masked]
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

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From: [email-masked] (jeff owens)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:37:02 -0700

Linda wrote:
>There is a pond on property that we are about to purchase, so we 
>look forward to incorporating that into our design.

We have a bog that I am converting into a pond gradually.  The plan
is to use timber bamboo on one side, then rotate ducks and sheep
through the area.  We are now growing Indian potatoes (arrow head
plant) and plan to try chufa nuts along the bank.  This combination
looks sustainable if we are careful about how many ducks and sheep
are near the pond.  Everything is planted except for the chufa
nuts and appears complimentary.  I would be interested in hearing
if anyone has experience with chufa nuts along a pond bank.

> We recently expanded 
>be similar to a date (don't remember the name).

The date like plant might be a Jujube?  We didn't have much luck
with them here (Oregon, foothills of Mt Hood).  The blackberries
are rampant along the edge of clearings, so we use them extensively
as food, fences, and targets for abusive language.  It would be
nice to integrate them in with other plants, but so far our domestic
thornless transplants have not been able to compete.  When our trees
get larger we are planning to try the thornless blackberries between
them along with summer vine crops and cover crops.  Last year
we grew clover between the trees and mounded it up to compost and grow
melons/squash.  The mounds covered with IRT did quite well.

>We're experimenting with buckwheat as a cover crop this year.

We grew buckwheat last summer and expected it to reseed this spring.
Instead the clovers and other plants have moved in with a vengeance.
This tells me that the buckwheat prepares a good seedbed for spring
and our soil is now more fertile.  My guess is that buckwheat is ideal
for preparing areas with poor soil and has to be harvested in the
fall, then planted somewhere else next summer.

>Our newest 

Ducks!  I love ducks.  Last year we could see that our ecology was
out of balance and needed something.  After listing all the problems
(slugs, bugs, hauling compost, etc.) the answer we came up with was
ducks.  Nature must have come to the same conclusion, because soon
after that a duck moved in and set up housekeeping.  The impact on the
local ecology has been outstanding.  The slugs are in full retreat and
the soil looks much improved where it spends time.  Sometimes I wish
it wouldn't roost on the porch and watch us in the window, but that
is a minor problem.

>Mental attitudes -- we got 'em. Which kind are you interested in?

I suspect those in intentional communities have different perspective
on attitudes.  For myself the biggest problem is society and its
constant programming.  The message seems to be one of consume and
buy solutions.  If you have a problem go find a specialists and pay
them to recommend a product.  Thinking like this ties one to the
money economy and thwarts some aspects of Permaculture.  I would
be interested in how others deal with this.

 ----------
Jeff Owens ([email-masked])  Zone 6-7  Permaculture
 Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:36:04 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Linda Felch wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Linda Felch <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: (permaculture) Hello
[text deleted]
> be similar to a date (don't remember the name). We've also done some work 

You might want to plant several varieties of eleagnus. Many of these bear
profuse quantities of edible fruit. See the Plants For A Future plant 
database for background on eleagnus and its relatives.

http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/index.html
or
http://www.axis-net.com/pfaf/

Or specifically:

To quote R.J. Morris:

"http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/elaeagns.html
Plants For A Future
R.J. Morris

Elaeagnus x ebbingei - A Plant for all Reasons. 
                                                                            
Some plants are so exciting and have so much potential for the 
permaculture grower, that I really cannot understand why they are
not better known. Just one such plant is Elaeagnus x ebbingei. This 
hybrid species of garden origin, the result of a cross between E.
macrophylla and E. pungens (or perhaps E. x reflexa), is commonly grown 
as a garden ornamental - in the future I hope it will be
extensively grown as a multi-purpose plant in many permaculture systems."
-

In North Carolina landscape nurseries offer several varieties of
eleagnus: pungens, fruitlandi, angustifolia and possibly others.
The wild variety is called Russian Olive. All are very hardy and some
offer wonderfully fragrant blooms in Autumn, others sweet/sour 
small fruit in Summer. They are exceptional for wildlife habitat and food
and as windbreaks, shelter for shade-loving plants and for incorporating 
into edge zones in permaculture systems.

Other wild plants worth considering are:

lowbush blueberry
wild black raspberry
wild black cherry
white mulberry
fig
wild strawberries
wild plums

ground nuts (nutsedge?)
daylillies
cattails
lotus
burdock
Jerusalem artichoke
wild spearmint 
violets
plantain (greater & lesser)
comfrey

walnut
pecan
hickory
butternut

LL

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From: [email-masked] (jeff owens)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:00:23 -0700

>database for background on eleagnus and its relatives.

I've read that some eleagnus are difficult to contain and thorny, so
it might be wise to use some caution here (think kudzu).  We are
growing Eleagnus multiflora (goumi) which does not have thorns and I
can confirm that it is easy to grow and productive.  The berries are a
small and useful for making jams.  One question which is still puzzling
me about eleagnus is how different animals react to the leaves.  We
have noticed that so far the deer have not grazed on it and our sheep
ignore it.  Not sure if this is significant, but it is good to be
cautions with unfamiliar plants.

 ----------