Subject: Fw: invasive non natives

From: "Bareis, Santa Cruz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:18:29 -0700

Please when posting, if you would add the location of your perspective;
As "from where I'm sitting"  adds a dimension to the discussion.
Here is a recent  response to the discussion on introduction of 
"productive" species into the  environment.

Non-native plants and the loss of natural diversity...

> Where I work, in the 100th of 1% of what's left of the great
> Willamette Valley wet prairie, all of it is contaminated by non native
> plants and animals...some very aggressive...and some introduced by our
> well meaning government many years ago.  A dozen non native pasture
> grasses compete with native grasses.  Pears, crabapples, regular apples,
> and many other plants grown as ornamentals threaten wetlands..we have
> cotoneaster, rowan, juniper spp., hawthornes (which hybridize with our
> native Crataegus douglasii), pyracantha, and of coarse scotch
> broom...which lumberjacks in the early 20th century noticed invading the
> first regrowth after the old growth was cut here in OR.  The Nature
> Conservancy is dedicated to eradicating these pests wherever possible.
> Some will never be completely eradicated and we must live with them.  For
> some there is no known method to eliminate them and the best policy is to
> just leave them alone and prevent disturbing the soil.  We practice fire
> management here, much the same as the indiginous Kalapooya, before the
> coming of non native settlers.  Gil- Willamette Valley Oregon
> 
> .-

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From: Carl Jeffry Goebel <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:19:52 -0700

The discussion about non-natives always amuses me.  As an European originated descendent who works with Native Americans, I am always amused how the discussion of "those" invasive weeds, etc. seems to forget how much mixing of the globe has gone on over the last couple of hundred years, as well as over millions of years.

Is there such a thing as "good" and "bad" species?  Is eradication realistic, or is it just another way to divert resources (money, time, fossil energy, chemicals) from more important work?

Good day.

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From: "Eugene F. Monaco" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:54:00 -0400

Message text written by INTERNET:[email-masked]
>The discussion about non-natives always amuses me.  As an European
originated descendent who works with Native Americans, I am always amused
how the discussion of "those" invasive weeds, etc. seems to forget how much
mixing of the globe has gone on over the last couple of hundred years, as
well as over millions of years.
Is there such a thing as "good" and "bad" species?  Is eradication
realistic, or is it just another way to divert resources (money, time,
fossil energy, chemicals) from more important work?<

I don't think it's so much a question of eradication vs. letting invasive
species wreak havoc as it is a question of balance.  Mother nature has her
ways of balance as we all know: the predators of rabbits, for example, are
balanced by the population of the rabbits; and the fox catches the weakest
rabbit keeping the species strong.  My understanding is that wehuman
animals have our role to play in the forest ecosystems--that of the
caretaker.  We harvest the weakest deer to strenghten the herd, and we beat
back invasive species when they threaten to take over.  I wouldn't go so
far as to eradicate--that has a gestapo sound to it IMO--but balance is
what it's all about; that's our reason for being here, at least on one
major level.

In permaculture, we're seeking to recreate the forest ecosystems in our
little abandoned parking lots, using species that we are familiar with as a
starting point.  As we tune in more and more with the way of nature, those
species we choose will evolve toward what mother nature naturally puts in a
forest.  As our understanding of the forest grows, so too will our
understanding of invasive species and how best to balance things in our
role as the caretaker, or more accurately, the caregiver.

Gene Monaco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
East Tennessee Permaculture  ([email-masked])
Herbs, consultations, & training for total health and environmental
sustainability
PO Box 11851, Knoxville, TN  37939      (423) 457-4354
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Carl:

In general, I agree.  However there are really serious errors that have been
made, such as introduction to goats and blackberries to various Hawaiian
Islands, Introduction of Europeans, Sheep, and Cattle to New Zealand, etc.
 I've seen ordinary nasturiums in New Zealand smothering trees.  Why?  You
tell me.  We've all seen the landscapes destroyed by cattle, goats & sheep.

On the other hand, some rampant plant species in particular are useful.
 Again, gorse in New Zealand is on the side of the land.  Kudzu can hold soil
when other human-induced degradations have been severe.  In Ireland, people
were blaming rhodendron for the decline of the oaks because the former were
growing more as the latter declined.  Actually, so far as I could tell, the
oaks were going to acid rain as oaks do across the North Temperate Zone.
 This opened the canopy and the acid-loving rhododendrons took off, probably
enjoying the slight nitrate boost as well as the additional light.  

As one who is among native peoples, you might discuss with them the role of
elders in such matters.  In any sustainable society, the elders, usually
specifically chosen elders, rule on these matters.  No, that species would
not do here.  Yes, this one would be ok.  This is the way it works in tribal
peoples I know, to the extent that their tribal culture persists.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 [email-masked]  

If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking.