Subject: FW: Re: Bill Mollison copyright statement

From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:31:44 +0200 (MEST)

-----FW: <LYR90206-8204-1999.05.27-14.58.04--vinci#linda.swin.de@franklin-----

Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bill Mollison copyright statement

Cover letter to Permaculture and other associated Journals

RE: The following press release

11 May 1999

Dear Editor:

We frequently receive notifications from teachers and students of their
intention to alter or change the Permaculture curriculum or to restrict
teachers or students in their pursuits to teach or study and also laying
claim to the material. This material is vested in the Institutes and the
graduates of courses and to that extent in common ownership. But the
material itself was solely evolved by the author and the original curriculum
taught in 1979 was devised by the author alone. People tend to loose sight
of this and claim ownership by adoption. (For some reason this is happening
most recently in Australia). Thus we need to periodically re assert
ownership and to legally update copyright. At my death copyright shall
remain with the Permaculture Institute in Australia and Permaculture
Institute Inc. in USA and their directors and the same laws shall apply,
that is teachers can not claim personal ownership of the curriculum or sell
it or give it way without infringing copyright law.

We would very much appreciate you printing our reasserting as you are a
vehicle for information on Permaculture. Thank you in advance for your kind
attention to this matter.

Most Sincerely,

Bill Mollison

Director

RESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLICATION

>From Bill Mollison, Author, Permaculture: A Designer's Manual

For further information, contact Lisa Mollison

Phone: 61 3 6445 0945 Fax:61 3 6445 0944 email: [email-masked]

11 May 1999

RE: Ownership of Permaculture Curriculum

Periodically, it is necessary to reassert my ownership of the original
Permaculture curriculum, which is also legally asserted by publication of
the Permaculture Manual in 1988 of which the contents of the book and the
word Permaculture are copyrighted to the author and that any use of said
curriculum must be by application to the author, that is not to secretaries
or other directors, but to the author only. The Permaculture Design Course
handbook issued by the Permaculture Institute to students for many years now
is simply a concise outline of said curriculum, and subject to the same
laws. If any person writes a text book, in particular a foundation text book
for a subject, no other person can assert ownership of that text, lay out or
illustrations nor can any group of people substantially alter or assert
ownership of the text. We have always specifically guarded ownership of the
PC curriculum so that all students have much the same experience in common
no matter what their cultural or financial backgrounds are, they would have
a common and equal education experience. 

Both this Institute and our American Institute in Santa Fe, Permaculture
Institute, Incorporated, are attempting to establish an academy that will be
legally able to issue higher degrees this is a long process and will not be
running smoothly for some time to come.. The Permaculture Institute began
issuing diplomas to students after two years practical work following their
certificate course in about 1988. It is and shall remain the registrar of
all diploma holders globally. This diploma is widely recognized through
other institutions and some universities, like Humboldt State University and
Slippery Rock University, etc...

.

In the past re-assertions of copyright have appeared in the Academy
Yearbook, p. 17 and have been reproduced in the 1998 American Permaculture
Directory, p. 6. Students publishing curriculum which often contain word for
word copies of copyrighted material from the manual and course handbook
cannot sell that curriculum nor can institutions purchase said curriculum or
teach it, even if presented under other names, such as Sustainable
Agriculture or Sustainable Designs. All such people need to write their own
curriculum and textbooks and not plagiarize my work nor my illustrations. It
would be refreshing if people wanting to publish would create their own
material and did not plagiarise mine.

This note is to restate the current position so there can be no
misunderstandings about ownership of the material. 

Thank you,

Bill Mollison

Director, Permaculture Institute

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-- 
Thilo Pfennig 
<http://Alternativ.Net/>

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From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:31:32 +0200 (MEST)

On 27-May-99 Scott Pittman wrote:

(Bill Mollison:)
> curriculum and textbooks and not plagiarize my work nor my illustrations.

If it is free information, people do not give respect to the roots of the
information, but if they produce material themselves they only think about
"their" ownership. It is clearly that Bill has nothing against using his
material if he gets payed for it. So what he is bothering about is, that he gets
not enough money.

I know that our current laws are protecting personal rights very much. On the
other hand people like Bill Mollison were heavily influenced by the natives,
who seldom get payed for the know-how they have worked for many thousands or
tenthousands of years.

I think copyright is just not natural.

-- 
Thilo Pfennig 
<http://Alternativ.Net/>

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From: Paul Osmond <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:43:53 PDT

Here, in
>Sydney, in the city, we have an analogous situation.
>
>First of all, there's a need in permaculture courses for an understanding 
>of urban
>environments and landscapes and their modifications by the process of 
>urbanisation,
>such as the heat island effect etc, as well as for an understanding of the 
>landscape
>the city is situated in, it's climate and landforms.
>
>Second, stuff about zones three and four, while still important to teach, 
>are of less
>value in the city because all that people have in their homes is zones one 
>and,
>sometimes, zone two. In Sydney, there are a few remnant market gardens 
>which represent
>zone three systems.
>
>Sydney is at present undergoing a building boom in apartment construction, 
>many more
>people are opting to live in medium density units, so this means that many 
>will have
>no zone one, or that their zone one will be a balcony garden, if their 
>balconies face
>sunward (north).
>
>What we say in our courses is that zone one may be some kilometres from 
>zone zero, the
>home, if it is an apartment or if, as is often the case, the person is 
>renting and is
>not permitted to build a garden in their rented premises. In these 
>circumstances, zone
>one becomes the nearest community garden. Now, I'm aware that some folk 
>will say that
>there is an energy cost in travelling to a community garden to obtain fresh 
>food, but
>that's rather small compared to the energy, road congestion and pollution 
>cost of
>railing or trucking the food in from the country.
>
>I wonder how this modification to the permaculture zonal orthodoxy is 
>impacted by our
>supposedly having to teach permaculture as per the syllabus provided by the
>Permaculture Institute Australia and, as explained in his recent mailing, 
>which is the
>intellectual property of Bill Mollison?
>
>There is a valid argument, I believe, for developing an adapted 
>permaculture design
>course for urban areas. The fact in Australia, as elsewhere, is that more 
>and more
>people are living in cities and, if the cities canot be made sustainable, 
>then it is
>questionable that the rest of the country can be made sustainable.
>An urban permaculture course content would retain all the ethics and 
>principles as, I
>believe, they are universally applicable. However, there would be less 
>focus on rural
>material and its replacement by material pertinent to the sustainable 
>development of
>cities and on how to adopt sustainable lifestyles in urban areas.
>
>A number of PDC students have told me that the existing course is too rural 
>in outlook
>and content and, as they have no intention of moving to the country, more 
>content on
>urban living would make the course more relevant.
>
>Skye, this gets to the final statement in your email, above, about 'growing 
>and
>evolving'. Yes, I agree - permaculture has to take a clue from nature and 
>grow and
>evolve in an analogous way. What we need, maybe, are bioregionally adapted
>permaculture coursee (we already have some, I believe) - some for different 
>parts of
>the country, some adapted to life in the cities.
>
>What I'm talking about is not wholesale change of the design curse 
>curriculum, but
>adaption to local circumstances and needs.
>
>....Russ Grayson
>

Valuable comments, Russ, and they suggest exactly the sort of issues we need 
to explore in the University of New South Wales Ecoliving Project.

Three areas come to mind straight away (and I am sure others will arise in 
the course of the Ecoliving Project!)

1. The conventional zonal approach focusses on the individual property, or 
perhaps the village, as the core. In the city, perhaps we should also pay 
attention to the pre-existing links, nodes and connections *between* 
properties and "villages" (or suburbs) - and indeed creating new links. 
There has been a lot of work done on habitat corridors, greenways, street 
tree strategies etc. in the urban context as part of a "greener" approach to 
urban design. To give just one example, reuse of stormwater via detention 
basins in urban parks is now becoming almost commonplace. Just as Mollison 
drew on ecology, horticulture, morphology and many other fields of knowledge 
in developing the permaculture design system, so we can draw on the growing 
field of sustainable urban design theory as expounded by authors such as 
Hough, Spirn, Thayer, to help inform urban permaculture.

2. A whole new suite of "sustainability tools" has emerged over the past few 
years - life cycle analysis (LCA), material flux analysis (MFA), ecological 
accounting, environmental auditing etc. Again, these need to be adapted and 
brought into urban permaculture curriculum  and practice. For instance, the 
issue of the energy cost of travelling to a community garden for fresh food 
vs. obtaining food trucked in from outside is not always necessarily clear 
cut - if (say) 100 people in 50 cars travel "x" kilometres to their nearest 
community garden, how does this equate to 2 trucks travelling "y" kilometres 
from a rural area with the same amount of produce? And what is the impact of 
those same 100 people driving their cars to the supermarket to buy the 
produce which has been trucked in? Not to mention the issue of the 
fertilisers, pesticides etc. etc. used in production? This sort of complex 
flow of materials and energy is well suited to the LCA/MFA approach, which 
can provide *real* data - for example to back up the case put to a local 
council for provision of additional community gardens closer to where people 
live ;-)

3. At the same time, we should not fall into the trap of the "economic 
rationalists" that everything has to be measured and quantified before it 
can have a value. Technical methods have their place, but as the servant 
(which is why I used the word "tools" above) and not the master. Hence the 
core principles in the permaculture curriculum remain as valid as ever, and 
highlight the importance of culture change to achive sustainability 
(permanent+culture).

Cheers, Paul Osmond

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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---

From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:42:51 -0700 (PDT)

Following this line of thought American aborigines should be given back all
that was taken from them by the Europeans.  And people who earn income
shouldn't be paid because they learned their skill, craft, profession from
someone else.

All of us are beholden to someone who preceeded us for our knowledge and
ability to survive - Bill certainly gives lots of credit to the aboriginal
knowledge he has been taught and does so in his writings, if one bothers to
read them.  He also gives scholarships to any aboriginal  who desires to
take his classes.   He also did the first geneology of the Tasmanian
aborigines, whose existence had been denied by the Australian government,
thereby giving them the right to claim Tasmanian tribal land and government
benefits which had heretofore been refused.

I think it good to remember that getting on high horses leaves one a long
distance to the ground.

At 11:31 PM 5/27/99 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
>You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
[email-masked]
Scott Pittman

Permaculture Institute, USA
PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
phone 505.455.0270

*********
Ingenio Patet Campus

---

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From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:00:01 +0200 (MEST)

> benefits which had heretofore been refused.

That has nothing to do with the sources of information. The ones who
earning the money are people like Bill, who took this know-how, made
it their own and then want to forbid others to use it!

He can teach the aboriginal for free as much a s he likes. Also no
book written about them will ever give back the land or their living
culture.

Also nature provides us all with food, fresh air and know-how that we
need to survive for free. Copyright is a very unnatural thing. I am
not saying everybody who uses copyrights is bad, but what we see is
that genetic companies are currently stealing genes and copyrighting
them. Copyright is like a virus that is hindering us from distributing 
information freely. THAT would be natural. This kind of permaculture
is Un-natural.

And I am sure, if more good information was free, the world would
look much better. There are many people who do not know much about
permaculture, because of the costs (copyright for books / courses).

If you want to change things, give your knowledge for free. If you
want to earn money, copyright your know-how, let everybody pay for the 
know-how you yourself got cheaper other how.

I don´t say those people make A LOT of money. But maybe it is the
question "from what" you make your money.

Our systems supports copyright and modern culture. Our culture is
stealing from everything (musically,culturally,scientifically ) since
many hundred years. By stealing I mean: Using it, publishing it,
claiming to own it and for instance forbid others to use or to
distribute it without permission.

Who pays for that? Why do you think southern countries are poor? Who
stole the gold? In Europe we now have laws that forbid to exchange
seeds from neighbor to neighbor. You must have a license. They want
to control, what seeds are distribute it. But the seeds should be be
"property" of nature - and nobody should tell me with whom or what I
exchange seeds (and information) with.

Forget about permaculture-ideas, if sou do not want the free
distribution of the ideas.

---

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From: Russ Grayson + Fiona Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:22:15 +1000

> Thanks for your letter Paul... my comments are embedded within your text......

> perhaps the village, as the core.

Yes, it does. Yet, as I pointed out in my original email, fewer
Australian urban
dwellers have access to their own property although, per capita,
Australia still has
one of the highest retes of home ownership in the western world. An
increasing number
of those homes, as I said, are, in fact, apartments and this has
implications about
the permaculture zone system and the proximity of the zone one system to
the dwelling.

Sydney home costs have skyrocketed over the past decade, in comparison
to home prices
in other states. That has put them out of reach for many people - it is
linked to the
growing wealth divide in Australian society so well described by social researcher
Hugh Mackay. What this means is that home ownership is less accessible
to more people
and this situation is likely to worsen if present trends continue.

My question is how should permaculture address this trend when, as you
say, it is
focused on individual property and has not generally addressed the issue
of lack of
access to property on which to do permaculture developments such as food production
and resource efficient housing design?

Of course, there have been the intentional communities, most of which predate
permaculture and which, under the NSW Multiple Occupancy Act, provided
cheap access to
land. These, however, have been developed in rural areas. Most people
now live in
cities because that is where the economic activity of concentrated, work
can be found,
education obtained and a cultural life enjoyed.

> In the city, perhaps we should also pay
> urban design.

That's right. There is a growing body of knowledge and practice in urban
greening. The
work of Sydney landscape architect and one-time local government environmetnal
planner, Birgit Seidlich, provides a visionary but achievable example.
When I worked
with Greening Australia some years ago, the concept of green corridors
was actually
being enacted through plantings.

> To give just one example, reuse of stormwater via detention
> brought into urban permaculture curriculum  and practice.

These are important tools and, as you say, would well benefit
permaculture education.
When we taught permaculture design courses in Sydney, we introduced life cycle
analysis to the students through John Denlay, one of the people who
developed the
EarthWorks waste reduction community education program and who is now
working in waste
management with Darwin City Council in the Northern Territory. John
introduced the
course's waste minimisation component.

> For instance, the
> from a rural area with the same amount of produce?

You would have to add on the additional energy, pollution and road 
costs  of
distributing the food from Flemington markets to supermarkets or other shops.

Comparative energy use is an interesting question in Sydney. Here, most
of our fresh
food (vegetables, many fruits) come from the urban fringe where they are
produced by
numerous small, family-based farmers, many of non-English speaking
background, many
hydroponic.

I was astounded to find, when NSW Agriculture was preoducing its
sustainable farming
strategy for the Sydney region, that something like 80percent of NSW's
fresh food is
produced on Sydney's Cumberland Plain region. Urban development is
eating into this
incredible agricultural resource - so there's another issue for lobbying
- protective
state and local government zoning for Sydney's food basket!

> And what is the impact of

Another aspect of this question regarding locally grown food and the
costs of trucking
food into the city from rural areas which I am interested in, but have
had no time to
properly explore, is the potential for organic hydroponic market gardens
and community
gardens on the flat rooftops of urban commercial buildings.

> highlight the importance of culture change to achive sustainability

Agreed. The permaculture principles, I believe, are universal in
application. To be
that, however, requires adaption to local conditions ie. the principles
would be
applied in many circumstances but adaption to those conditions would
result in many
different solutions, looking different and, at times, resulting in the seeming
contradiction of a problem in on circumstance  being a solution in another.

This requires the input of what I believe is probably the most critical
component of
permaculture design - imagination.

Maybe that's what we chould teach in permaculture.

Regards...

...Russ Grayson

PACIFIC EDGE PERMACULTURE
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone/ fax   02-9588 6931   (IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Email: [email-masked]

PERMACULTURE/ COMMUNITY BASED ESD: permaculture education + Australian
City Farms and
Community Gardens Network (NSW contact) + organic gardening training + EarthWorks
training (community waste minimisation) + overseas development
assistance project
management services.

MEDIA: journalism/ photojournalism (global development; environment and society;
social change; sustainable community development) + publication design + desktop
publishing services.

> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

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From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:02:03 -0700

gracias syke my experience has been the same in many parts of mexico and the
third world   have you tryed clay sandwich cisterns ?  everything can be had
locally  mike collins  sonoma permaculture   if you can't even afford bus
fare to sell what you have  mouth to mouth   que mas  pero tiene una pala y
una asadone este es todo de la realidad.   sigue por lo puro earthworks and
large leaves amigo  sientido en la vida ellos antes de demonstracion  come
la realidad  ellos  abrir una puerta super limitado pero muy abierto de la
spiritualidad y poco de la materialisma  reentra de la
psychodelicointelligenciopermaculturismo como de las viejos y bajamos en una
mundo con sus soluciones en este mundo  ahora    ciao
----------
>From: Skye <[email-masked]>
>To: "permaculture" <[email-masked]>
>Date: Sun, Jun 6, 1999, 9:03 PM
>

>Hola Thilo Pfennig
>
>"I think everybody can have access to the internet"  -- wow!!!
>
>Let me tell another story.
>
>Yesterday I was in a course with people from isolated Mayan villages.
>The theme of the workshop was water harvesting and conservation. We
>stood in the 42deg (C) heat while I demonstrated sheet mulching around 
>a fruit tree as a way to reduce evaporation. At the end, they said they
>thought it was a good idea (in saying so they were challenging and
>breaking many strong cultural patterns) but asked me if I knew where
>they could get the newspaper. 
>
>In asking further I realised that most of these people had never had the
>opportunity to learn to read or write (although all were totally fluent
>in at least two languages!). There is no newspaper in their village.
>
>I guess because their disposable income is effectively nothing,
>globalisation has not yet exploited their village. Some have only
>recently received connection to the electricity grib (which inevitably
>brings with it the Coca Cola truck!!!).
>
>In the workship we also built a type of ferro-cement tank of 2000litres,
>at a cost of $40 - but for most of them that was simply far too
>expensive - although a few expressed an indication that they would try
>to save their money in the hope that they could build one next year.
>
>Access to internet????? They have no money. Few phones exist in the
>community. Most cannot read. And more importantly the very concept is
>totally foreign to them. Even if my spanish was good enough to translate
>it, 99% of what is written in this listservor would be utter giggerish
>and their comprehension - although if we cared to listern they could
>teach us a great deal.
>
>Its fine for some of us to be connected into the global economy,
>especially if we use it constructively. But don't get caught into
>believing the corporate propaganda about a better world for all. The
>rich are getting richer (and better connected) - the poor are still poor
>- and getting more so.
>
>Stay connected, but also try to remember what the reality is in this
>world. Some have, most do not.
>
>Skye   
>
>-- 
>Skye - Apdo # 391,  Patzcuaro, Michoacan, CP. 61600 México. 
>fax  (52) 01 (434) 24743
>Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura
>Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C.
>Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y 
>economía comunitaria.
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email-masked]
>
>

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From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:08:06 -0700

bravo you folks are have a standing invite from us at  Sonoma  Permaculture
----------
>From: "Kent Jared" <[email-masked]>
>Date: Fri, Jun 4, 1999, 5:07 AM
>

>Hi Russ
>                Could you tell me if I could find present texts that cover
>the extremes of this argument?
>Would you know of any Permaculture books that talk closer to the side of
>cities and how they suggest to integrate the process of Permaculture in the
>large city areas.
>
>                Reason why? I have a real time situation at hand that is in
>need of a book of this nature. I have shared the book of PERMACULTURE with a
>native rain forest person and after teaching her English. She comes to me
>with hours of debate about the differences in the book. Note she only has a
>English education, no sciences what so ever! So I am married to this girl
>now and brought her to several different places in the world. Only to find
>that due to her ability to see nature as she does so easily,  seems to give
>her an advantage in the rural planing of the concept of Permaculture. So now
>she has seen a huge city and her main desire is to show and tell me of what
>she thinks is missing in the link between permaculture and the city! there
>has been some good input here. Also when I took her to Bermuda the island so
>sensitive to all around it. She offered endless suggestions to the locals
>there which surprised many . Then continued to question about what the
>people on such a little island have done to manage to control there
>environment. Bermuda is very small and there is an average of sixty thousand
>people living there. Not including the mad tourist season too! I see Bermuda
>quite advanced in city permaculture have you ever been there to see there
>balance. I must admit this is like seeing a micro EARTH on earth. Even their
>housing is very complex for fresh water collection, to add!
>
>                Just a thought to share Bermuda with you. It has a lot of
>examples of Permaculture and the city. The history of the islands records
>are great and the plants and animals that were tested there are well
>recorded too. Even the Queen and several others used this island for this
>purpose. And to accent the history the Americans used the island as a war
>vessel too and it survived that too. It is a virtual nutshell of
>permaculture. I believe that I could offer more contacts if needed since I
>have a extreme knowledge of the area and the events that have taken place
>there. It was the source of my desire to see the study of Permaculture. But
>I never new what the term ment prior to being in Bermuda. But then I
>transfered to Brazil and found a text called PERMACULTURE.  Then I saw a
>path, Hence forth to Ahoy!
>
>
>Reverend Dr. Kent Jared
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Russ Grayson + Fiona Campbell <[email-masked]>
>Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 4:30 AM
>Good to hear from you again Skye.
>
>Skye wrote:
>
>> Hola a todos
>>
>> Obviously the section of the standard sylabus on clasical landscapes,
>> specifically the part on coral island atolls is not only irrelevant to
>> these mountain people, but more so, is so totally outside their realm of
>> experience that the very concept of an ocean island is incomprehensible.
>>
>> So, can I work with these people in the name of Permaculture or not?? I
>> am certainly not about to waste their time with coral atoll
>> strategies!!!!
>>
>> If not, then the previous comments about Pc being elitist are starting
>> to sound very real. Can we only teach Pc to those with sufficient
>> education, access to information (and maybe internet) and a wide
>> experience of concepts???
>
>> I have heard and read many Pc people claim Pc takes many of its
>> concepts/inspiration from nature - has anyone ever noticed that nature
>> changes and evolves???? Are we prepared to also grow and evolve -
>> Natural Succession is a basic premise of PC for me - lets try doing in
>> our organisation as well as our gardens!!
>>
>> Skye
>
>I understand your concern regarding the classical landscape stuff Skye.
>Here, in
>First of all, there's a need in permaculture courses for an understanding of
>urban
>sometimes, zone two. In Sydney, there are a few remnant market gardens which
>represent
>zone three systems.
>
>What we say in our courses is that zone one may be some kilometres from zone
>zero, the
>one becomes the nearest community garden. Now, I'm aware that some folk will
>say that
>There is a valid argument, I believe, for developing an adapted permaculture
>design
>believe, they are universally applicable. However, there would be less focus
>on rural
>PERMACULTURE/ COMMUNITY BASED ESD: permaculture education + Australian City
>Farms and
>training (community waste minimisation training) + overseas development
>assistance
>project management services.
>
>You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

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From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:17:20 -0700

----------
>Date: Wed, Jun 2, 1999, 12:52 PM
>

>Hola a todos
>
>A few weeks ago I was working in the mountain area near Nevado Toluca
>(the major volcano in the State of Mexico, Mexico). One of the
>agronomists I was working with, told of how, a few years ago he had
>taken four of the campesinos from this area on an eductional tour/field
>trip. After crossing the state of Michoacan they eventually stopped at a
>beach on the Pacific Ocean. The four men stood on the beach for an hour,
>staring in amazement, mouths slightly open, arms hanging loose. After an
>hour of studying this amazing sight, they returned to Alejandro and
>quite seriously asked, "but what does it look like in the dry season?". 
>
>experience of concepts????
>

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From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:18:29 -0700

get your swaling hoe and go folks  if your poor you dont care about the
semantics   SonoPerm
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From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:23:20 -0700

bills covering his butt for you  rich folks  he wants the poor to get the
info any way they can  get to work
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>From: ForestHaven <[email-masked]>
>Date: Thu, May 27, 1999, 10:13 PM
>

>I've never met Bill Mollison, but I have learned much from his books.  I
>agree that he has a perfect right to the fruits of his creativity and
>labor.  However, his copyright statement really turns me off and I'm not
>sure why.  Maybe it's because it sounds more like something that would
>be issued by a multi-national corporation than by a man who  supposedly
>is trying to change the world for the better.  When I first became
>interested in pc, less than a year ago, I inquired of a friend whom I
>thought should know something about it.  He told me it was "elitist" and
>for "rich people."   I'm beginning to see what he meant.  It's not my
>intention to offend anyone here and I'm sorry if I have.
>
>Doug Fields
>
>---

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From: [email-masked] (Eva Vesovnik)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 03:33:01 +0200

[email-masked] writes:

Dear Editor:
> by the Permaculture Institute t  
>
>Institute, Incorporated

I would highly appreciate a list of Permaculture Institutes - worldwide,
(adresses,phone nrs, e-mail -adresses...or even better short 
portraits....) if there is such one.
Thank you very much ib
eva vesovnik
permaculture austria

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From: [email-masked] (Eva Vesovnik)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:50:32 +0200