Subject: Re: Help design this orchard

From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:28:00 EST

Hi, Rob, Akivaw

Great topic!
I too am very interested in the replies to your question. Would you please be
kind of enough to post all responses to the list. Happy Holidays to all. frank
Requoted below:
<<I am looking for some permaculture information pertaining to deciduous
(stone) fruit trees.  We have a mix of apricots, plums, peaches, 
nectarines,
pluots, apples, and Asian pears coming soon.  I have three areas of 
inquiry:

1.  On our soil, I think we can dry farm (or nearly so) the stone fruit
orchard we have planned.  Any thoughts?

2.  I'm looking for low or no pruning methods for the culture of these
trees.  Conventional practice requires heavy, detailed pruning annually.  
Is
there a permaculture alternative to this approach?  Why is it that some
"abandoned" fruit trees bear so much nice fruit?

3.  Tree spacing and patterns.  Most orchards are set out in neat, 
straight
rows.  At home, I've always grown trees, herbs, and vegetables in 
groups, or
blocks, or other patterns to fit the landscape.  Is this feasible on a
larger scale?  Also, is there an advantage to having a "fruit forest"
pattern, with canopy cover over most of the soil, as opposed to open 
strips
between rows?>>

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:17:25 +1100

where are you Rob,
can help when I know location (in Australia??) and climate.
April

April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC
LC permaculture Visions
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND
-----Original Message-----
From: Akiva Werbalowsky <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>; [email-masked] <[email-masked]>;
[email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: Friday, 19 December 1997 6:21
Subject: Help design this orchard

>This is a message I'm posting for a friend. He has an incredible
>selection of trees ready to go in the ground in Ojai, California. Please
>contact him at:
>
>[email-masked]
>
>
>I am looking for some permaculture information pertaining to deciduous
>between rows?
>Any references or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Best wishes,
>Rob
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

---

From: "Rene and Lorraine van Raders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:00:29 -0800

Heres some thoughts.. not necessarily correct

> orchard we have planned.  Any thoughts?

We are growing them dry with 1600mm (this falls as summer rain on a very
free draining soil, and we have 3-4 months with little or no rain).   What
do you call dry?
Try it and see, with seedlings perhaps.  If they don't do well without
irrigation, then other species may be a better option for the main crop. 
(For best results, plant at the beginning of the wettest season, if other
factors such as frost are not a major consideration.)

> "abandoned" fruit trees bear so much nice fruit?

Pruning is done to preserve tree structure (cutting out dead wood, new
leaders, rubbing branches), or to increase yield.  Grafted trees often
don't survive well without some pruning for structure at least.  Seedling
trees should thrive (although quality, speed of production and yield may be
down).  What about managing some intensively (those close to house) and
letting others grow "wild".  Reduced pruning may see reduced yields but the
trees should last longer. 
> pattern, with canopy cover over most of the soil, as opposed to open 

"Global Gardener" video has a temperate forest garden featured (Robert
Hart's).
Permaculture UK has also produced a more detailed look at his garden (video
and book   "Forest Gardening")

Neat rows are convenient for harvest and maintenance, but aren't very
aesthetic, nor earth friendly.  Certainly other patterns will work, but
they will do better with careful design to ensure harvest and maintenance
are still easy.  Most trees are affected by competion (bare ground can
increase yields... however the down sides are many).  A forest garden will
usually show reduced yields of your main crop, offset by other yields. 
However a field planted with companions ( a few species selected to work
well with your main crop) should not impact negatively on the crop, and
also provide additonal yields.

Look to the pattern of nature in your area (spacings etc) and from the area
the crop originally comes from.

Cheers Rene and Lorraine
>From Far North Queensland, Australia

---

From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:30:50 EST

Hi,
In a message dated 12/23/97 7:35:03 AM, [email-masked]? wrote:

<<Neat rows are convenient for harvest and maintenance, but aren't very

the crop originally comes from.>>

My question to Rene and Lorriane and all is this. First I tend to agree with
the above comments, but just what are the patterns, and the spacings involved?
I've seen so many posts that espouse ideas like this , but few that give
actual details.
It seems that we must also keep in mind "labor" requirements in any such
operation else how can we profitably sustain it...unless we have free labor of
family , friends, and our own sweat.
Love to hear more about these patterns. 
I have been deeply influenced by Fukuoka's " The Natural Way of farming" and
would like to adapt some of his ideas on my homestead farm.
Thanks. Happy Holidays to all.  frank

---

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 21:53:03 -0000

----------
> From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re:  Fw: Help design this orchard
> Date: 24 December 1997 19:30
> 
> Hi,
> aesthetic, nor earth friendly.  [snip]
------
> the above comments, but just what are the patterns, and the spacings
involved?
[snip]
------
Seasons Greetings to you all.

Maybe this is of interest. 
We had an oddly shaped field surrounded by stone walls which we decided was
to be our goat patch. To make fencing easier we divided it into one large
(2000m2) and one small (200m2) patch. The big one for the goats, the small
one - well, it seemed to lend itself to being used as a little fruit
garden. Inspired by Hart's forest garden I made a design for the patch
involving 3 black + 5 red currants, 3 gooseberries, 3 Worcesterberries, 5
damsons, 2 filberts, a plum, a row of tummelberries + raspberries, rhubarb,
loads of comfrey for mulch + liquid manure, a couple fuchsias and a
rambling rose for colour, some perennial herbs, and flowers. We have a very
small chicken tractor for 3 birds (one of which turned out to be a cock.
God rest him, we just had him for dinner) which keep the grass down, eat
left-overs and provide eggs+manure. Most of the bushes were only planted
this spring, some had been relocated from our previous place. 
The site has dry-stone walls on the northern, eastern + western side, the
south is open to the goat field (seperated of course by a five-strand,
twelve-gage, couple-thousand-volt fence - very unpleasant to touch...). 
The patterns underlying the plantings are:
* Species in clusters (for pollination) or against the south wall for
support, shelter and heat stored and reflected from the wall (we had
raspberries 'Autumn Bliss" into early December, despite some frost - the
December frost killed the last flowers!). 
* Bigger plants and shade-tolerant plants at the back and east (full sun
for those which need it).
* Flowers and comfrey to attract pollinators and for colour.
* Spacings as indicated in relevant books for our climate + soil  (Ireland
- moderate Atlantic, mean July +15C, mean January +5C, little frost,
virtually no snow, 1000mm precipitation, brown earth on this plot). When I
drew up the plan I used a compass set to the respective spacing for each
species, i.e. if a spacing was two metres between plants of one species I
used a circle of a two centimetres (at scale 1:100) diameter for each plant
with the circles touching within a cluster of plants. Between clusters of
different species I used the largest required spacing=diameter. Obviously
height, shadows from plants and walls as well as the neighbours animals
grazing on the other side of the stonewall were also considered. 
Soiled chicken bedding from the tractor goes right onto the comfrey beds
during the winter, onto the compost in the summer (because you can't get in
between the comfrey plants in the summer). 
The fruit bushes are mulched once or twice a year with comfrey leaves
topped by a cardboard "collar", topped by leftover compost material from
sieving (for potting compost). This is done to keep weed competition at bay
during the growing season; you can't let the chickens scratch too close to
the plants as they scratch bare the roots. I'm toying with the idea (not
mine) to plant comfrey and horseradish around the bushes once they have
reached their maximum width.

The result so far (as I said most plants are only in their first year) is
grassland with bushes *seemingly* randomly scattered about the place. But
I'm fairly sure each plant will have enough space, light and nutrients as
it grows and hopefully give us back some food for the effort. Growth this
year has indeed be very good and promising. There's still space for more.
We are planning to plant some Rosa rugosa for rosehips (and as a treat for
the goats), some more herbs along the wall (have propagated sage and
rosemary this summer) and more raspberries along the wall, too. If all goes
well we'll have plenty organic fruit throughout the season, maybe a few
nuts, lots of herbs, some flowers, lots of comfrey and some eggs. 

This is a design for a home garden and for home consumption, not for a
commercial site. But it involves very little work.

For many years I used to cycle past a lovely mature standard apple orchard
(in northern Germany) with grassland which was grazed alternately by sheep
and geese. This was an old-style orchard and seemed to work very well.
There were loads of apples each autumn. The trees were pruned every winter.
The spacing was, I'd say, about 7 or 8 metres. Despite the rigid pattern it
was actually a beautiful sigth during flowering time and in the autumn. I
don't see why this (standards plus grazing animals) shouldn't work with
other fruit species. 

Hope this is of some use.
UteB

compost.

---

From: "Rene and Lorraine van Raders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:51:28 -0800

> Thanks. Happy Holidays to all.  frank

Hi Frank

Well some patterns that spring to mind are alley cropping (alternating rows
of crops), sinuous rows, circle plantings, spirals.  Perhaps you could
trial a mixture of patterns and spacings.  Our own garden is more a random
scatter pattern.   It seems to me that there is no right or wrong answer
with patterns and spacings (no magic formula).... larger spacings give more
room for growth and production per tree, while smaller spacings let you put
in more trees (presumably with less yield per tree).  The research with
regards spacings for a permaculture style orchard (stone fruit in your
region) has almost certainly not been done.  All you can do is take a stab
at what looks right and monitor it (making adjustments).  We live in
rainforest country where close spacings are the norm.  Look to see the
pattern/spacings in your natural forest and use them as a guide.   Close
spacings can easily be thinned out later, and this is the approach we've
taken here.   Our expensive trees are planted at fairly wide spacings (as
for adult trees) but the spaces in between have been heavily planted with
other tree species.  As the trees mature we'll then select those poor
performers to cull as mulch or other yields.

Hope this is of some help
Rene

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:04:17 +1100

there are two main patterns/ideas available to people who harvest
mechanically.
machines need straight lines on the whole, but even so these straight lines
can be kept on
contour, not up and down the slope so - thereby preserving soil and water.
1. plant your crops in strips with strips of companions between cash crops
2. plant in differing heights:  as the crop grows to a certain height and
you can harvest it, the next crop
can be growing in amongst it.
2a. with the introduction of sorting machines (seed sorters, human sorters)
you can harvest several crops at once
growing together
OR
2b. if you sell your crops as mixed goods (such as mixed grain or mixed
seasonal salad greens) then you
will not require sorting either and can get a good healthy mixed crop on the
market.
Patterns is a whole permaculture design course topic, it is usually the
topic that
gets least attention and yet, a students observation skills can really take
off with the
appreciation of patterns.
we look for designing with patterns so that we can predict seed dispersal,
energy
transfer (wind, water etc) and design for sucession.
in these last 3 years of writing a design course text I'd say i have spent
more mental energy
writing about patterns in a way that makes it relevant and stimulating to
students.
when i am designing I think in patterns first and then in specific elements.
your Landscape is a pattern, even if it looks totally flat, it has wind and
water and seed and
dust in patterns, the animals and people move in patterns and even the
machinery.
in permaculture we teach about main patterns including,
wave,
spiral,
cloud,
branching
scatter
lobes

April.

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:15:18 +1100

there is certainly equipment that is less damaging to the soil.
when you turn soil you expose the micro-organisms to the air,
they die and you benefit from the sudden supply of fertilizer (little 'blood
and bone's) - not
meaning to be graphic here!
some equipment that avoids this is a Ripper.  the Ripper (Yeomans Plough and
others)
cuts through the soil without actually turning it.
also, when you come to harvest lets say salad greens you could look for
equipment that is man or horse powered and runs along at a height simply
trimming off the
greens (like the old fashioned lawn mowers, along with higher set blades)
In permaculture we aim to start small, develop observation skills and search
for soft technologies and
organic solutions.
when you have small successes this leads you on with confidence.  specialise
in a highly desired crop
so that your returns per man-hour are maximised.
certified organic produce in Australia gets a much better price at the
market.
Warrigal Greens and other native food species get a very good price.
April

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC
LC Permaculture Visions
leaders in permaculture learning by correspondence
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

-----Original Message-----
From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: Thursday, 1 January 1998 4:10
Subject: Re: Re: Fw: Help design this orchard

>Hi, April
>
>Happy New Year to you. i am always impressed with your expertise, and
>willingness to share it with others.
>I have a question, or rather a dilemma that you perhaps can help me with.
>I would like to implement much of the best methods and strategies found in
OGF
>and Permaculture and Sustainable ag on a homestead farm I'm planning to
>purchase soon.
>But I am only one person and don't know if I could feasibly hanle all the
work
>without the use of some machinery, which in the ideal situation would not
be
>necessary. Then too I'm considering a  small scale Community Supported
>commercial market garden not just for my own use. So that too creates a
need
>for more labor than I could reasonably supply.
>So what's a fellow to do...are they some pieces of equipment that are less
>damaging to the soil, but that are efficient, good tools? what about
>transplanters? Of course I intend to start small and eventually ramp up to
say
>5 to 10 acres of production for produce, plus fruit and nut orcghards. I
like
>to diversify as much as possible too.
>I'd appreciate your thoughts, comments, and advice. Peace . frank
>

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:15:18 +1100

-----Original Message-----
From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: Thursday, 1 January 1998 4:10
Subject: Re: Re: Fw: Help design this orchard

OGF
work
be
need
say
like