Subject: Re: Patterns

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:20:48 -0000

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: From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
: To: [email-masked]
: Subject: Re: Patterns
: Date: 24 March 1998 23:47
: 
: hi UTE, do you want to be known as an elder then?? 

Certainly not - I'm only 33! 
Been dealing with pc for 15 years but all I know is that I know very
little, still, when it comes down to it...
I've never taught others, for example.

:  when you are one of course, not I, I like the freedom as a small female
to ask silly questions!!!  

I hope you noticed my reply was a bit "tongue in cheek" ...
And I would also want to reserve that freedom! 

: but Rene's right, I have met with a number of truly challengingly
repulsing, scorning and scathing attacks on us less learned
: students of permaculture.
: I have been accused of living under a rock - and quite frankly, it is a
: happy rock.
Same here.

: But that is not why I am writing this morning, David Holmgren is why.
[snip]
: I can tell right now how the grumpiness starts - EVERY TIME we open our
: garden just a few people manage to get me grumpy,

I always thought it was only German people who manage to wind people up
very quickly (tongue in cheek again - I'm a German living in Ireland and
working i.a. in
tourism I'm very much aware of "national traits". Sorry - off-topic.)
: 
: 1. the MEN indirectly insult me by speaking to Paul and not believing
: that I do the bulk of the work on my own, [I have occassional
: friends and our children help a little]
Yeah, I've often come across that syndrom here. The guys develop the ideas
(or so it seems from the way they are talking,
the women modify them to suit reality and  implement them, and then the men
get the credit for the whole thing!

[major snip]
: Permaculture is threatening to many people, we all have a good dose of
guilt and few know how to challenge this energy.

: April

Again, I have (we probably all have) got that reaction. "People have been
farming here for 6000 years. Who do you think *you are* thinking that you
can contribute something *new*?
The thing we can do is *do it* and then let people see and decide for
themselves.
 
Cheers,
Ute Ch 
from Clogher (Irish for Rock!)
Kilfenora
Co. Clare
Ireland

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From: Lee Flier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:50:22 -0500

>The thing we can do is *do it* and then let people see and decide for

Yes.  Also, I don't know how many of you are familiar with the novels of
Daniel Quinn ("Ishmael", "The Story of B", and recently "My Ishmael"), but
I think they go a long way toward explaining how agriculture is not the
cultural blessing that we have all been led to believe it is.  I really
feel that Quinn's work dovetails nicely with Permaculture although Quinn
does not seem to be familiar with Permaculture.  He mainly sets out to
debunk the current context in which our culture operates, and I have found
that I can recommend his work to even the most hardheaded Americans, who
seem to need everything neatly packaged into soundbites and would not be
inclined to wade through a Permaculture text or design course without
understanding why they should bother.

However, Quinn's works have been bestsellers, and the general reaction of
people who've read them and had their brains turned inside out, is to ask
"What can I DO about this?"  At that point I tend to start talking about
Permaculture and all of a sudden they are receptive to what I'm talking
about.  It really is a nice juxtaposition.  There are some gaping holes in
Quinn's philosophies that are nicely addressed by Permaculture concepts,
and likewise Quinn's books seem to do a good job of getting people to break
down some culturally ingrained (and destructive) ideas that are thousands
of years old.

Check it out, if you haven't already.

= Lee =

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From: Lee Flier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:50:22 -0500

= Lee =