Subject: RE: [permaculture] Sustainable, Non-exploitive, Space Exploration

From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:33:15 -0700

Aloha,

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	[email-masked] [SMTP:[email-masked]]
> 
>...sustainable systems of food production and
>distribution are much easier to create and manage when they are set up for
>people on vegan diets as opposed to diets with meat and/or dairy in them.

Try telling that to the tribespeople in dryland Africa whose subsistence
culture revolves primarily around domesticated goats (for just one of
countless age-old examples - there's also the Lapps, etc.).  It all depends
on where one is and what one has to work with.

Anyone have examples of ecosystems large enough to be potentially
self-sustaining that both include vertebrates (especially mammals) and are
"vegan?"

>Simply look at veganism, not as static, but as a temporary state of being
on
>a greater continuum. That, the continuum of doing as little harm to the
>universe and biosphere around you, while going about the business of
>surviving and enjoying life. All of us kill. The point is to do as little
>killing as necessary, and create as little damage in our wake as possible,
>because to -not- do so endangers our -own- survival and happiness.

So where along this continuum do we stop killing billions of innocent
plants?

>To rely, at all, on meat and dairy, is to introduce unecessary
complications
>and damage into a system. 

Damage (or not) would depend on *how* "meat" and "dairy" relate to other
systems, how they are "implemented."   
Complexity can be a very desirable characteristic for ecological systems -
makes them more robust, flexible, adaptable to changes in larger systems and
thus more likely to continue in some recognizable form.  That's a feature I
like in ecological systems that keep me alive!  It also seems to be a
fundament of permaculture, or at least of the natural systems we claim to
pattern permaculture designs after.
I would like to hear more about where animals of all types fit in to your
master plan for this planet (or some other one, as the case may be).  If
they threaten your vegan food sources (whether by trampling, grazing, using
them for habitat, or whatever), what do you do?  There are countless
essential (to life as we know it, anyhow) symbiotic/balancing/cyclical
relations between plants and animals to consider, as well, in this
interconnectedness you mention.

>Only in the most extraordinary circumstances,
>(such as those presented to one living a non-technological life in the
>arctic tundra), does such reliance make any sense.

I suspect most humans live in circumstances more closely related to the
"extraordinary" cases than to the situations of the privileged few
first-worlders who can easily and affordably live and/or advocate a vegan
lifestyle.

>It is likely that the next phase of human civilisation will eventually
>reject animal slavery, just as it did human slavery. I certainly do
already.

I can see many ways to "reject animal slavery" and still eat meat
occasionally - probably much happier and healthier meat, too.  "Free range"
fish, grandpa's venison - neither of those critters are "slaves" in any way
I can imagine; certainly no more so than domesticated crops in a
human-cultivated garden.

>I also see it as ethically imperitive that any future human civilisation in
>space, follow a rock solid doctrine of noninterference with other life
>forms, when they are discovered.

If they are "discovered" in such a way that they have any experience of your
existence, they will have been interfered with.  So not "discovering" them
is the only sure way to not interfere...

>It is much more likely that vegans would
>hold true to such an ideal. Meat and dairy eaters, because they have not
yet
>come to terms with even their -own- unecessary causation of damage and
>suffering to other living things, would be much less likely to stay true to
>that doctrine when circumstances challenged it.

Now this really starts to sound familiar.  With apologies to Pastor
Niemoller:

"First they came for the red-meat eaters, and I did not speak out because I
do not eat red meat. 
Then they came for the fish and poultry-eaters, and I did not speak out
because I do not eat poultry or fish.  
Then they came for the ovo-lacto vegetarians, and I did not speak out
because I do not eat eggs or dairy products.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me..."

;-)

John Schinnerer

---

From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:33:15 -0700

Aloha,

on

complications

already.

yet

;-)

John Schinnerer

---
You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email-masked]

---

From: Skye <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:45:18 -0600

Hola a todos

In early winter last year I gave a course in northern Germany. One
morning I listened as two women talked about their vegan/raw food diets.
They talked of how healthy and better they felt, and how more people
should eat such a great diet.

I watched as they breakfasted on bananas (probably from Costa Rica),
drank orange juice (Californian oranges?), put a little margarine
(oilseeds from USA) on their wholemeal toast (wheat from Canada). As I
watched I could see the large tracts of land destroyed in other
countries to grow their food. I could see the poverty of campesinos
trying to produce their food. I could feel the pain as cultural patterns
are destroyed as more people in "developing" countries are brought into
the global economy. I realised the ecological damage and pollution of
the whole distribution system needed to feed these two people.

I came to threee conclusions
1. The vegan diet is basically for the financially priveledged of the
"first" world.
2. That it is environmentally destructive.
3. That socially and ecologically the world cannot afford such a diet.

----------------------
> >reject animal slavery, just as it did human slavery. I certainly do

Have we rejected human slavery??? Or just shifted it off-shore!!!! Of
course now we use the more politacly accepted term "free trade zones".
Areas where the might of the US economy has been used to bully poorer
countries into setting up areas where environmental laws are not
permitted, where basic wages do not exist, where basic worker safety
considerations are irrelevant, where sexual harassment is rampant,
corruption the order of the day, where workers can be subjected to
exposure to toxic chemicals banned in USA........ I guess there is a
difference, in the old version of slavery the owners at least generally
burried the bodies of their victims, - now, when a worker starts dying
from toxic poisoning, he/she is sacked - leaving the relatives and
family to cover the pain and financial burden of a slow lingering death
and subsequent funeral.

To live in a way that minimises suffering -
1. Do not buy any food grown/processed outside your immediate bioregion.
2. Do not buy any products made by companies who have operations (or
contrived subsiduaries) in free trade zones in Latin America,
Phillipines, India etc...

Now there is a real challenge!!!

Good Luck!
Skye 
-- 
Skye - Apdo # 391,  Patzcuaro, Michoacan, CP. 61600 México. 
fax  (52) 01 (434) 24743
Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura
Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C.
Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y 
economía comunitaria.

---

---

From: eric + michiko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:32:05 -0700

Skye, I have enjoyed your recent posts.  You add a healthy diversity to the
perspectives of the list. 

"first" world.

> contrived subsiduaries) in free trade zones in Latin America,
Phillipines, India > etc...

I don't see a necessary connection between the global diet of the two
ladies you mentioned and a vegan diet.  The conclusions you wrote above are
really about a global diet.  And the solutions you offer are true whether
one eats a vegan, a vegetarian, or a meat based diet.  So, I'd drop the
vegan / non-vegan distinction and agree that we should buy local food,
products and services; and the closer to home the better.

> Now there is a real challenge!!!

Yes, thankfully in our area, it's not too hard to do with food.  Although
there are plenty of unwanted goods now at garage sales and flea markets, we
will eventually need more locally produced basic goods such as pots and
pans, clothing, tools, etc.  Could be job opportunities for the "middle-
and upper-middle class backgrounds [who] want intellectual work" (Toby
Hemenway 5/17) ; )

Eric Storm

---

---

From: georg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:28:26 +0200

>3. That socially and ecologically the world cannot afford such a diet.

i once spent about a year in a village on vanua levu, fiji's second largest
island. many people there live 9 out of 10 days on a vegan diet - on the
10th day they usually managed to catch some fish or freshwater prawns. but
basically i agree with skye that Any diet that conceptually excludes part
of the riches nature offers is out of balance - and this imbalance is
unavoidably transferred onto one's enviornment.

>Phillipines, India etc...

i wholeheartedly agree and would like to add
3. i try to educate others who didn't ask for it only through provocative
example, and Never with 'you'-sentences.

georg
******

[email-masked]
***************

follow your heart -
it's the only way to heaven on earth.....
******************************** * *  *   *     *       *  

---

---

From: georg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:26:06 +0200

>commerce never found a vegan society that had good nutrition as he measured

where did he find vegan societies at all?

*

georg

********
follow your heart -
it is the only way to heaven on earth.. .  .
******************* * * *  *   *    *      *         *

---

---

From: [email-masked] (John Knapp)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:25:17 -0700

At 8:44 AM 6/14/99, [email-masked] wrote:
>
>Dr. Weston Price (Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation) in his search of
>villages,
>tribes, etc.that ate only indiginous foods and none of the displacing foods of
>by
>good dentition (straight teeth without caries and well formed dental arches).

Steve's reply caught my attention since my cash income comes from
practicing dentistry a couple days a week in a local community clinic.

It has been a few years since I read Dr. Price's book and the information
from his foundation.  To the best of my memory he  never found a vegan
society and the point he was making was the differences in physical
development between those eating an indigenous diet and those who ate a
processed, non-indigenous diet.  The pictures are fascinating, but his
science was a little weak(although excellent for his time).

Nevertheless, his main assertions were certainly consistent with the idea
and benefits of growing and eating locally, and reinforced the role of good
nutrition in human development.

>Many people, including myself, believe in the necessity of animals in a
>sustainable
>farming system and see them as much a part of permaculture as plants.

This would be true even if they weren't domesticated(owls, bees etc. vs.
chickens, cows, etc) or being raised for human consumption, but it has no
bearing on whether eating a vegan diet is healthy or not for humans or the
planet!

Looking at human dentition versus other mammals, leads one to the
conclusion that humans are omnivores - they eat anything.  That and their
ingenuity are the reasons humans are all over the planet.  But their
primary food sources in most places have historically been vegetarian,
supplemented intermittently by available meat sources.  And over time,
surviving populations adapted and thrived with what was locally available.
>From what I can surmise, is that there are those who do well with high meat
diets(Aleuts for example) and those who do well with low meat diets.  But
not everyone does as well with the same diet due to individual differences.

"Vegan vs meat eaters" has become a mantra for those who see veganism as a
solution to world hunger or other problems.  Seems to me it's not so black
and white.  More of an issue of distribution of wealth, centralization of
food production, overprocessing and probably a number of issues I'm totally
missing.  For the yuppies that Skye first mentioned, veganism is a fad and
an unsustainable life style.  They are a symptom of the larger problems
inherent in a global economic system.  Veganism in this context is a red
herring.

Hasta mañana,

John

---

---

From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:41:59 -0700

jJGracias por su reportaje  amigos en sonoma condado
----------
>From: Skye <[email-masked]>
>To: "permaculture" <[email-masked]>
>Subject: RE: [permaculture] Sustainable, Non-exploitive, Space Exploration
>Date: Sat, Jun 12, 1999, 9:45 PM
>

>You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email-masked]
>
>

---

---

From: "Jeremy Sharp" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 04:47:19 -0700

hey john you must have enough time on your hands  come help us no dead
horses here  thanks for the bludgeon sticking  gracias
----------
>From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
>Date: Tue, Jun 8, 1999, 8:33 AM
>

---

---

From: Skye <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:52:04 -0600

Into the fray again!!!

I have no doubt that in some climates, a vegan diet is possible. And I
am sure it would be extremely energising and healthy.

My point was simply that I doubted such a diet is possible in areas such
as northern Germany. If someone could live in such a climate, and be fit
and healthy on a vegan diet, we'd have my unmost admiration.

I am not against veganism as such, as long as it doesn't involve
exploiting other peoples/ecologies. For twenty years I was a strict
vegetarian (only slightly relaxed now) so I don't know how to prepare or
cook any meat products - and have no interest to learn to do so now. A
family inherited sensitivity means I can rarely eat eggs. Having lived
in warm climates without a refrigerator for almost 15 years, my intake
of dairy products is also minimal. And I am quite healthy and manage a
fairly busy schedule.

Guess I am just saying, lets not get hung up on dogma - to be vegan or
not, its individual choice, but I try to be aware of the
implications/connctions that occur because of diet, lifestyle.....

Gracias.....abrazos a todos
Skye 

---