Subject: [permaculture] Does Permaculture have to be so expensive???

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:49:13 EDT

at certain times I have answered this question by replying that courses are 
not nearly expensive enough!

some observations from new mexico and 7 years teaching permaculture design 
courses privately and for a local community college:

1) to echo much of what has been said previously, no one is making much 
money, or being adequetely compensated for their time in the courses we teach.

2) we charge US$450 for a complete 72 hour design course. 

3) we cut costs by hosting the course at one of the participant's homesites. 
this has distinct disadvantages from my point of view: sites are not pc sites 
so have little to demonstrate, sites are not learning centers so lack so much 
in the way of really supportive learning environments, sometimes people's 
houses are not clean (very bad for those of us with allergies!) or toxic to 
some of the participants (once got driven out of a place because of the smell 
of moth balls).

4) my experience has been that no matter what the cost of the course is, 
somebody will complain that it's too expensive. some will argue that it 
should be free, this violates my understanding of the law of return: the user 
must pay.

5) one point that has not been mentioned is the inevitable process of burnout 
that accompanies volunteer work. this does not lead to good courses, 
improving teachers, or the furtherance of permaculture, as far as I can see. 
it also violates our ethic of care for people. 

6) according to marketing research, price is pretty low on the list of 
considerations for making a purchase. perceived benefit is at the top. if 
people value what we're offering, price is much less of an issue.

someone once asked me in a course why people say "penny for your thoughts," 
but when you offer your opinion you say "my two cents worth." supply and 
demand, perceived benefits versus need. this is at the core of what we're 
discussing. so, that's my $.02 worth. (US, by the way)

with regards,
christopher peck
santa fe, new mexico USA

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:28:04 EDT

Hi,

In a message dated 5/13/99 3:46:52 PM, [email-masked] writes:

<<It would behoove those of use who cannot afford such resources to
rely more on our own libraries (hardcopy and electronic), glean
information from the Web and pursue greater information exchange 
between us.>>   Yup...there seem to be quite a few folk who espouse this 
method of exchange:) But not enough of the leaders seem to want to give or 
comment at length in such discussions.  There are a few who do...and those 
inputs are always well considered, and I'm sure are appreciated and perhaps 
even implemented by other less experienced folk.

Just my .02 cents. No criticisms intended.  Frank

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From: Xavier Dequaire <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:32:39 +0200

>The more expensive PC courses have certainly come into their own and
>made it into the mainstream. They are probably well worth the expense;
>whether one can afford them is another matter.

If permaculture training might be expensive, is expensive for some body,
applying what you learn is definitly opening for a much less expensive
lifestyle, and most people will be fast paid back their little investment
in training.
Living ignoring permaculture and generally sustainability is usually very
expensive.
This is at least true in expensive industrial and/or cold countries like
Norway where I live.

Travel costs are artificially low in the world today-
One major reason to the environmental problems
IMHO, sustainability and Permaculture it self would invite to move the
PC-teachers rather than the students
Otherwise April's solution to pay by work is nice for those who have time
(students can usually use more time to travel cheap- the travel cost being
a less important issue)

Some special courses in Norway are buildt up so that a real project is done
by the students for some body, making the course cheaper since someone gets
a "product" out of it. Many Strawballs buidings have been set up that way.

Xavier

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From: "Uwe Bruenjes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 May 99 10:05:50 PDT

Hi Frank,

you are also or have been on the aquaponics list, so we both know that in other circles people are quite willing to share valuable experience and knowledge for free, though they definitely could put forward good reasons for charging money for their counselling activities...

Uwe

----------
   Yup...there seem to be quite a few folk who espouse this
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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 08:03:34 EDT

Greetings Uwe,

So good to hear from you.

Hope things are going well.

<<so we both know that in other circles people are quite willing to share 
valuable experience and knowledge for free>>  Yes...indeed I'm on quite a few 
list and the generosity, willingness to help is most impressive.

For some reason though Permaculture help is much tougher to come by, and I 
believe it is hindering the movement. Devotees need to spread the gospel more 
"freely"(BG)

This is not meant as a universal criticism there are quite a few PC folk who 
have been quite helpful with generic info...but when it comes to details, 
specifics much harder to get help, and advice. The standard refrain is that 
we need to come out to the place, and evaluate and of course be paid. Well of 
course each place is unique but it seems to me that people within the same 
climactic areas could profer some good general stuff.  Oh well.

Bright wishes.   Frank

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From: "Uwe Bruenjes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 May 99 04:46:23 PDT

Hallo Frank,

how are things going with your new farm? If I recall correctly, you unsubscribed from
aquaponics (or are just lurking) because you have too little time for all the things you have
nd like to do.

Anyway, sometimes I have the feeling that permaculture is some kind of multilevel marketing
ystem. You see, first you have to take a course and pay for it. After that you are a certified
ermaculture instructor, can also give courses and charge for them. These people again can
ive courses... How does that sound? So my believe is that for these professional
ermaculturists the list is just a place to promote themselves with tiny bits of info. Getting such
recise, complete and many times even quite scientifical info like on the other lists, is
omething we can only dream of. Now I only wonder why nobody here in Chihuahua, Mexico
as even heared about permaculture...

Tell me a little about your farm; it's always good to know what others are doing, have
chieved and which mistakes they commited, if any. Enjoy your weekend!

Uwe

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From: Toby Hemenway <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:29:24 -0700

I've been enjoying the many thoughtful comments on this thread. The one
strand I'm in disagreement with is the notion that charging money for Pc
teaching or consulting is unethical. So, as someone who has taught
permaculture, I'd like to address this question. What I'm asking for here
is for us to question and assess our assumptions.
  Part of the problem is that we alternative types equate money with
something evil. Most of us need a certain amount of money to survive. I'll
take that as a given, and sidestep the whole huge issue of the ethics of
money. So the question is, why are we willing to pay a doctor or mechanic,
yet balk when someone wants to charge for teaching permaculture? Is it
because most of us on this listserv are trained in permaculture, and resent
someone from our community charging for knowledge that we could gain with a
little effort? This doesn't seem logical; I can grow my own food, but I
willingly pay a farmer to buy what I don't grow myself.
 I want to dismiss the idea that teachers earn a high hourly wage. You may
say, hey, 10  students for a day at $35 is $350, that's a lot. No, it
isn't. To prepare one of my two-hour workshops took reading 4 textbooks,
countless hours on the internet and out observing, and in teaching it 6
times, 4  were for free.  I've earned $80 for the workshop, or about $1.50
an hour. If I teach it 15 more times I'll earn the US minimum wage. That's
typical.
  Others resent Pc teachers charging for info that is available in books
and elsewhere. Teachers are reaching people with a particular learning
style. Some people learn by reading, others by solo trial and error. That's
great! But some-the audience for courses-learn best by being with someone
with experience. (I might add that you can gain wisdom from a good teacher
that a book or internet will never teach you. Knowledge isn't wisdom)
   Or it may be that there is a glut of teachers and designers trying to
reach too small an audience: a hothouse effect. The glut, I think, is
because most of us in Pc (in the US, at least) are from middle- and
upper-middle class backgrounds and thus want intellectual work. For most of
us, farming, though a noble profession, isn't a real option. That leaves
design, teaching, land development, and planning. Development takes money,
and planning means dealing with bureaucracy. Ergo, we teach and design.
  Are teachers and designers trying to, as has been suggested, restrict the
flow of information and thus charge for it? My own experience is that
teachers love to share knowledge: that's why we do it. All the Pc teachers
and designers I know spend far more time working for free than for pay. But
we are trying to make a living that combines our love of Pc with our love
of teaching. I can't agree with the person who found fault with designers
who offer free "generic" Pc advice, but beyond that, want to charge for a
site visit. Once you're past the generic point, a site visit is essential,
or you risk improper advice. Would you trust a doctor who never saw a
patient? Again, that viewpoint assumes that it's unethical to charge for
permaculture design work. Why is Pc design different from, say, carpentry
or teaching English? How much work should someone do with no compensation?
  Perhaps the problem is because much of Pc knowledge is intuitive and
homespun, almost obvious in a sense, and comes largely from observation.
Anyone can do it. So we may resent paying someone for telling us something
that, in hindsight, seems obvious.The problem here is the incestuous nature
of Pc. Teachers and designers have got to expand to an audience that hasn't
taken a Pc course, and we're not doing that.
   Maybe as Holmgren suggests, we don't need professional permaculturists,
just architects, teachers, farmers, etc. with a Pc perspective. But in this
very young field, the niches are still in flux, and I believe that for the
time being, there's a real value-even one worth money-in promoting
permaculture by teaching and design.

Toby

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:52:38 EDT

Hello Uwe,

Good day to you.

<<how are things going with your new farm?>>  great ...just wish I were down 
there full time. It really energizes me, and I want to throw myself into the 
"Doing". So much to do though. he he. I may have just bought some cattle 
...to help keep the grass down and hopefully ,make a few bucks. I belive a 
mix of animals is important to the type of farm I hope to have.

<<If I recall correctly, you unsubscribed from aquaponics...>> Yup...but 
eventually I'll try it.

Have you perhaps read Louis Bromfield's Malabar Farm...great book and one of 
my inspirations.

Right now I'm trying to get a house designed and built. No easy 
task...especially since I'm trying to use systems that offer long term energy 
savings, and efficiencies...passive solar, daylighting, heat exchangers, 
SIPS, insulated concrete etc etc.

It's taking much longer than "wished". he he

Funny....I have spent years thinking, dreaming, designing such a home in my 
head..but real world costs may put a real crimp in some of my "program".

I've read a lot about alternative building...strawbale. cob, adobe...but I am 
just not convinced I can do it on a timely basis, or in as expert a manner as 
needed...especially in humid south east. Besides can't afford to be a guinea 
pig and later run into problems.

How do you like Chihuahua? Been there long?

Got to go!  Bye...  Frank

<<Anyway, sometimes I have the feeling that permaculture is some kind of 
multilevel marketing
ystem.>> LOL!   I know what tou mean:)

But the difference is that most of the practioners are really sincere , 
dedicated folk who can really help make a difference. Too bad there's not 
some subsidized institute that could spread the gospel without the fees and 
costs. Many of the people who seem to adopt the systems are back to the 
landers on low budgets(BG). 

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:29:23 EDT

Thanks Toby for bringing out that perspective. Two things I'll reiterate from 
my previous post:

1) Law of return. the user must pay. there is no free lunch.

2) burnout. people who do work for free must be compensated in some other 
way, and significantly. if not, they burnout. seen it too many times.

I mentioned this weekend to some folks who also work in the sustainable ag, 
holistic thinking realm about our conversation regarding the expense of 
permacluture classes. they laughed. they couldn't understand how people could 
expect a quality course for so little money as $1000 for two weeks that 
included food and lodging. their thought was even that was absurdly cheap. 
different perspective.

with regards,
christopher peck
santa fe, new mexico USA

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From: eric + michiko <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:11:31 -0700

There seem to be two points of views in this discussion, if I may be so
bold as to simplify things.

One is that Pc courses and events are too expensive for the average person
to participate in, except perhaps as a rare treat or by special effort or
sacrifice.  The descriptions of the courses are enticing, but are not
priced low enough to allow many people to attend.

The other is that Pc teachers deserve what little money they make from
their efforts to put on courses and events.  By comparison with other
similar events and jobs, the price and the pay are not high.

I think both are correct, and that each side needs to look at the other
point to go any further toward  possible solutions.  From the comments made
so far, here are some of the points to notice:

There are many potential students who would like to attend the events.
They want information about Pc and related subjects.
They can not afford, or are not willing to pay, the price.
They may not feel the prices reflect what they will get out of the event.

Teachers (Designers?) are not able to make a living at teaching (designing?).
They do no feel fairly compensated for their time and effort.
Pc courses are expensive to put on.
Teaching is demanding and can not be done every day like most other jobs.

There might be less expensive methods of learning about Pc.
There might be less expensive ways to teach / put on a course.

Some comments:
*Writing off potential students who do not want to pay the prices asked
misses the question of how can these people be included in Permaculture.
*Something might be wrong with the way courses are run, if they are
exhausting and expensive for the teachers and few people are interested in
attending.
*There must be a large variety of ways of making the information and
experiences available to a larger number of people.

I'd also like to address the issue of "money as evil" / "charging for
services is unethical" vs "charging $1000 doesn't fit Pc ethics."  Although
I agree that many "of us alternative types" feel that money is a dirty
thing, I think the point made originally was different.  One of Pc's ethics
is "share the surplus."  An objective of Pc is to spread the word, so that
more people will incorporate it into their lives.  The $1000 price tag is
seen as a barrier to spreading the word.  The question was how best to
spread the word in a way that reflects the ethics of Pc, not is it ethical
to charge for Pc services (or what is the best way to make a living as a Pc
teacher or are they being paid enough).  

Justifying the prices of courses using the ethics of business (market
value, supply and demand, hourly wage, etc.) does not respond to the
question of Pc ethics.  Yes, there are other expensive courses.  Yes, there
will always be some people who can afford a course at any price, but this
thinking may restrict the flow of information, possibly making Pc elitist
as someone mentioned.  And, yes, there is nothing wrong with being fairly
compensated for your effort and skills.  But there is an assumption here
that there must be professional teachers who make (most of) their income
from teaching (something that doesn't seem to be a reality).  Perhaps as
has been suggested, we need people in different occupations that have a Pc
perspective.  

Or perhaps, we need venues that are less intensive, allowing the teacher to
work more often with less intense output of energy.  I taught English a few
hours a day and understand the hours and effort involved in teaching, but
school teachers teach everyday for several hours.  There must be something
to learn in the difference.  This would allow a teacher to make the same
amount of money, or more, from a larger number of lower paying students.
Obviously, I am not talking about residential Pc courses.  As has been
suggested, by Thilo and others, there could be other formats that expose
people to the ideas of Pc or give them useful experiences.  Or the funding
could come from by-products of the event or some other source to allow the
prices of attending to drop even further.  Or, as has also been mentioned,
some of the effort and costs of putting on the event could come directly
from the participants.  I think there is a lot of need for creativity and
exploration here.

The point that people won't value what is cheap had been brought up.  This
again is coming from business ethics.  I think people recognize value when
they see it, and it may take a sample to allow them to judge.   Some of
most valuable experiences that influenced me personally were free: local
library books, hiking, visiting with friends, etc.  The comments on this
list show a desire for the information and experiences, and therefore show
they consider it valuable.  They just don't feel it's worth the asking
price or they don't have the ability to pay it.  Either show them how
valuable it is or bring the price down (see above suggestions).  The
efforts toward the former doesn't seem to be working.

Toby had an interesting point, among many: 
> The glut, I think, is

There are some meaty issues here.  Can Pc grow beyond a marginal
intellectual activity if everyone wants intellectual work?  This factor may
be why it has been difficult to get away from (professional)
teacher-designer / (paying) student-client, lecture / workshop patterns.
Perhaps to shed its academic skin, Pc needs to find more connections to
other occupations and methods of spreading information.

This is getting long and starting to ramble, so I'll stop.  Instead of more
points to support the two views I started with, or just letting it fade
away until someone brings it up again, should we discuss ways of spreading
the ideas in Pc and ways to make teaching more economical?

My one cent worth ; )

Eric Storm

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:18:27 EDT

Eric,

Nice , well done post on PC. I tend to agree with you...both the PC teachers, 
and "wannabe" students are correct.he he

<<should we discuss ways of spreading the ideas in Pc>>  My vote is strongly 
in favor of this approach. he he. later   Frank

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From: Kelley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:39:29 -0400

I don't think that teaching Pc for money is unethical.  But, one of the reasons that I
feel courses are so high in cost is that for me, I would have to travel quite a
distance for a course.  As far as I know, the closest courses are in Nova Scotia,
Maryland and Tennessee (except for exceptionally rare courses offered a bit closer).
Not only is the money a factor, but the time is very difficult for me as well.  It's
hard to be gone for a week or more and leave DH with all the home responsibilities (ie
sheep, chickens, housework, etc.).  We are not yet in a position to have a good
animal-sitter that we can trust will keep things running fine while we're both gone for
that length, either.  So, for me, the added cost of time and travel (travel alone
between $300-$500, plus course fees) made the correspondence route much more appealing
as I can learn at my own pace and taylor the program to my own specific needs.  I would
think that these are concerns for many folks who would otherwise be interested in the
topic.

Has anyone started an interest group in their area for PC?  I'm wondering how one would
go over in this area.  I spoke with a bookseller in town one day who said that the
Mollison book "Intro to PC" sells quite well.  It's a very small bookstore in a small
town, so that should say something.  I've also thought about the possibility of
offering mini-workshops through the local adult ed program.  Has anyone tried this
route of disseminating info?

Kelley

Toby Hemenway wrote:

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From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT)

At 10:39 AM 5/18/99 -0400, Kelley wrote:
>distance for a course.  

I have been teaching courses in the U.S. and in some twenty other countries
for the past 13 years and my best financial year teaching couldn't have been
over $15,000.  This obviously means that I live below the poverty line or I
have other sources if income, which I do.  Most of my income is from design
work which keeps me busy during the summer months in this temperate area of
New Mexico.  For five of those years teaching I have co-taught with Bill
Mollison and he never made any more than I did!, Bill had his books to fall
back on.

Though teaching in the U.S. and other developed countries would bring in
$800. to $1,000 per student approximately two-thirds of that money is spent
on food, convenors fees, advertising and travel for the teachers.  The
one-third left is taxed at the rate of 25%.  On average our courses were
attended by twenty participants giving us, at $1000 tuition, approximately
$6,666.66 to split; that amount represents 150 hours of teaching and
hands-on demonstration which is 44.44 per hour.  Add the time traveling and
preparing for the course and you can easily halve that amount to 22.22 per
hour.  A good teaching year is three to four courses in a developed country
then add two or three courses in the developing world and you are very lucky
to break even.  This is not a "get rich quick" profession.  I spend an
inordinate amount of time writing grants to support the developing world
projects and educational programs for which I am paid nothing.

I learned more in two weeks of the Permaculture Design Certification course
than in 8 years at the University and it was knowledge that could be put to
work to improve my own living situation as well as gave me positive tools
for improving the total health and sustainability of the planet.  I became a
member of a very unusual international group of caring and hard working
folks whose efforts are making a difference in tens of thousands of peoples
lives and that is the primary pay back for all of the time, money, weird
tropical deseases, close calls, interminable hours with bureaucrats, and
listening without going ballistic to belly-aching whingers.

I am convinced that permaculture is the most important work being done
globally and that what has been done and is being done in the realm of
teaching, designing, and project development has been very successful by
paying teachers and designers for honest and groundbreaking work.  Every
teacher I know has struggled with the problem of how do we reach more folks
cheaper and faster - we are all aware of the urgency of reversing the
rapaciousness that is destroying our planetary base.  The only things I have
come up with are to be born rich or write grants so that you can give the
courses free and still survive as a teacher.  I only have the latter option
and have had little success except in the developing world.  The granting
organizations find nothing "sexy" in giving courses for free in the U.S.
except for a very few targeted groups like Native Americans.

Most of the teachers I know are living way below their economic potential
because they are deeply committed to creating alternatives for all of us.  I
don't know about the efficacy of correspondance courses because I havn't met
or seen the work of those students.  I do know that a very magical and life
changing events occurs at residential permaculture courses that are well
taught and that the students who graduate from those courses never look at
the world in quite the same way, becoming themselves part of the solution
rather than the problem.

As far as travel costs are concerned all that is needed is for a group of
people in a bioregion to get together and organize a course with enough
participants to pay for the teachers transportation and an agreed upon fee
and then find a teacher to come to you - it's done all the time.  Bill had a
rule that you never go anywhere unless you have been invited, particularly
in developing countries. We always found some way to go once we received the
invitation.

This letter is starting to feel like a ramble when what I really wanted to
say was I have known only a couple of teachers of permaculture who weren't
worth ten times what they were paid, expecially when you see the final
results as expressed by their students and their students students and
their... etc.

Scott Pittman

Permaculture Institute, USA
PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
phone 505.455.0270

*********
Ingenio Patet Campus

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From: Kelley <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:03:05 -0400

Scott (and others)

Many teachers that I know, NOT PC teachers mind you and NOT public school teachers
either, are living well below the average American wage or poverty line.  One does not
go into teaching or any sort of environmental work with the delusion of making a
fortune, or a decent wage either.  At this point in societal development, neither is
happening.

Kelley

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:33:53 EDT

Hey,

In a message dated 5/18/99 10:45:43 AM, [email-masked]( Kelley) writes:

<<I don't think that teaching Pc for money is unethical.  But, one of the 
reasons that I feel courses are so high in cost is that for me, I would have 
to travel quite a
distance for a course.  As far as I know, the closest courses are in Nova 
Scotia,
Maryland and Tennessee (except for exceptionally rare courses offered a bit 
closer).
Not only is the money a factor, but the time is very difficult for me as 
well.  It's
hard to be gone for a week or more and leave DH with all the home 
responsibilities >>

Very well said Kelley:)  

 I too have similar problems, and concerns. I had planned to attend a Course 
in Ohio...but had to cancel at the last permitted  date due to farm 
plans/obligations. I was really looking forward to that weekend, and the cost 
was much lower than others. I think it was around $250 since the teachers 
were not well known, and the Center is obviously trying to entice like minded 
folk to visit.

Any PC courses coming up in Kentucky?  Best to all.   Frank

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From: Xavier Dequaire <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:45:56 +0200

Kelley wrote:
>... I would have to travel quite a
>hard to be gone for a week ...

Then find the students from your area (all the "Intro to PC" readers are
potential students) ,
get a teacher and organize with that teacher the course at your place.

you get all the advantage you miss, on the top may be ideas for your farm
and some work done, and you start a network of PC-concerned people in your
district-

Make it happen locally!
remember "think global, handle local" is also a good idea

Xavier

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From: EFMonaco <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:20:40 -0400

Scott & company,
I thought I'd dodge this thread because it comes around every couple of
quarters or so, and the responses are always the same.  I agree with Scott
but there's more to say.  I too got more out of a two-week design course
than I had gotten from any other prior experience.  It's an
awareness-raising process and the price is worth whatever you have to pay. 
When one is ready for the experience one will find a way to attend.  As for
starving teachers.... its true, there's no money in permaculture education.
  While others have admirably survived at the poverty level, personally, I
quit trying to teach formal courses due to my personal needs not being met.
 Now I do gorilla teaching.  Pernmaculture has many forms, and can be
practiced in a number of ways over a wide variety of disciplines and areas
of influence.  The notion that its just for farmers is just the first
phase.  Permaculture is for everybody.  Bill always said that the bad
teachers weed themselves out becuase they won't attract enough students to
survive.  If we're all starving, it might be time to question the format. 
This too has been debated; some feeling the 2-week format is inadequate and
we should be doing the old 3-week format.  Its kinda like planting
something that doesn't grow well in an area.  Does it make sense to sit
there and complain about structural problems, and poor soil conditions, and
how farmers just can't make it anymore?  I'm here to tell you that even 3
weeks isn't enough.  It takes the rest of one's life.  So how much is
enough? and how much should it cost?  Lets keep experimenting, but lets not
get discouraged by measuring our success with yesterday's yardstick.  Can
you find a way to make a difference?  Have you learned something new today?
 These are the measures of success.
My two-rants worth,
Gene Monaco
Knoxville, TN

Message text written by Scott Pittman

<

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From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:35:35 +1000

good on ya Scott!
April
Permaculture Visions International
Students and graduates in 15 countries
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Pittman [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 1999 6:34
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: Does Permaculture have to be so
> expensive???
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From: Kelley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:48:03 -0400

In reply to Xavier's comment about why not scheduling one here, for me right now it
would be way too much work to organize something like that.  I've  just come off of a
one-year process organizing an ecopsychology conference (which was only a weekend!) and
have to catch up on farm work because of it.  Even though I could get some farm labor
out of the deal, I have to think whether the time, energy, planning, missing of chores
is worth it.

Kelley

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