Subject: Re: Mollison bashing

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT)

Regardin the Activist letters, I think that the authors took an unfortunate
route to express what some people to perceive to be a problem.  I suggest
that perhaps more harm than good will come of making this a topic of
discussion on the internet.  

My personal approach with Bill, when I have had problems with his personal
role as opposed to his written positions, has been to take the matter to him
directly.  In any case, we need a more secure arrangement, strictly for
permaculture teachers, for this discussion in my opinion.  I don't notice
Bill participating in this forum, so how can we discuss what he does
personally, except to gossip?  Since we surely can't presume to require him
to be on the list, I suggest that the people who are really
affected--permaculture teachers and Bill--try to set up a more direct forum.

There are actual public matters that no one has commented on, e.g. arbitrary
creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, once again, is
this the fourth for fifth time?, with no consultation of the permaculture
community, meaning design course graduates.  Do we want a national
organization.  Is the design consistent with permaculture?  How do officers
get selected?  If we want one, what do we want it to do?  (Here we get back
to the point.)  Should it not promote American permaculturists as any other
professional organization does?  Etc.  From that discussion, we might also
clarify some of the pros and cons of Bill's role as a teacher in North
America and maybe, depending on how we define ourselves, Hawaii too. 

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT)

---

From: Loren Davidson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:14:33 -0700

>discussion on the internet.

Perhaps.  And perhaps the discussion will give list.members an opportunity
to really think about what they believe, examine their own self-picture with
respect to how they choose to relate to the greater Permaculture
movement/community/aggregate.  Observing and clarifying one's sense of self
and purpose is to me an important activity...perhaps the ultimate in "Zone
0" design.

I'm one of those Californians who had to choose this year:  Which course do
I take?  And I believe that the choice I made, to take the course from
local/bioregional instructors rather than from Bill and Scott, was the best
choice *for me*.  But I can see where others, with different goals and
needs, would have been better served by the Mollinson course(s).

>creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, (...), with
no consultation of the permaculture
>community, meaning design course graduates. 

If this is true, it doesn't sound entirely consistent with principles of
local/bioregional control and grassroots organization...which while not
necessarily "100% Permaculture", are to me at least consonant with
ecological principles.  This may not have occurred to the organizers...yet.

 Do we want a national
>professional organization does?

All excellent questions, worthy of thought and reflection.

It's my understanding that a directory of *all* design course grads is being
prepared, to be made available to all design course grads.  I think this is
a Good Thing, as it will enable organization, communication, and networking
to occur on whatever scale the participants want:  locally, regionally,
nationally.  Personally, I'd like to be in better touch with folks in my
bioregion, and don't currently see much benefit to me in a national
organization.  But I realize again that others may see differently than I.

The idea of an organization imposed "from above" sounds to me a lot like
saying, "I want to grow ginseng, so I'll just plant it on this hot, sunny,
sun-facing slope".

If this is the case, I anticipate that the results will become obvious,
sooner or later, and perhaps some of the good Permaculturists involved will
observe these results and adjust their design accordingly. :)

Just another data point,

Loren,
learning to observe patterns...
--
Loren Davidson      
[email-masked]         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind" - seen on a bumper sticker

---

From: "Eugene F. Monaco" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:49:36 -0400

Message text written by INTERNET:[email-masked]

>There are actual public matters that no one has commented on, e.g.
arbitrary
creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, once again,
is
this the fourth for fifth time?, with no consultation of the permaculture
community, meaning design course graduates. <

I share Dan's feeling of isolation on this one; they could have called a
national conference if the intent was to create a professional association.
 My understaning is that the reason for the association was/is
multifaceted, of course.  On one level, Pittman is reported as complaining
that there are some, well, less than perfect permaculture teachers floating
around, issuing design certificates.  But Mollison always stated that the
louzy teachers would weed themselves out because they will not acquire a
good reputation: a self-limiting system.  Pittman reportedly does not share
this view.  Personally, I can see how the indiscriminite issuing of design
certificates flames this problem, but in the end it doesn't matter (see
below).  Mollison spends a lot of time covering drylands strategies which
are not covered by the permaculture courses at The Farm.  But having
co-taught at The Farm, I can say that there are bioregional strategies for
eastern woodlands covered that Mollison doesn't cover.  Those classes may
in fact be better suited for local residents; after all, a farmer in my
area, East Tennessee, should damn well understand the forest systems.  I've
seen too many so-called permaculturists move to a wooded area and start
clearing so they can build a permaculture garden.  This is not good
permaculture but folks still miss the boat.  After 2 weeks of hearing about
the salting of lands, net-and-pan strategies, and tropical paradise
gardens, one can ignorantly come back to the eastern woods and start to
make a mess of things.

Personally, I've supplemented my permaculture education with eight weeks at
the Tracker School which is eastern-woods based (despite Tom Brown's claim
that survival and caretaking skills are universal, another topic and
discussion group).  Mollison also covers earthworks and pond-building.  If
you want to go broke in a hurry, go out and build a bunch of fish ponds
after a 2-week design course.   Having a civil engineering degree I can
tell you that he gives you just enough rope to hang yourself on all that.  

And so what?  Should we require certificate holders to all have engineering
degrees and go to Tracker school?  Absolutely not.  I have a certain sphere
of influence in which I can apply permaculture.  Others have spheres much
different and much larger than mine.  Some are writers, others lawyers,
others are savvy on the internet and can set up pages of reference
information, etc.  It's all part of the puzzle.

The attempt to "own" the concepts of permaculture and to put a tax on it is
one of those humanalities out of which we will just have to evolve.  Folks
are going to try.  I've just about given up on the 2-week course, issuing
certificates and all that.  The certificates aren't worth the paper they're
written on IMO.  If we start creating a professional society of
permaculturists, then we're falling in to the same old trap that every
other wave of enlightenment has fallen into (the churches come to mind) --
existing so as to perpetuate ourselves.  Permaculture is a lifestyle as
much as anything, and it doesn't work unless EVERYONE on the planet
participates.  Do we have a professional society of air breathers, or water
drinkers, or space taker-upers?  What good is a bachelors degree in
psychology anyway?  Would you like fries with that?

So let them set up their professiona society if they can.  In case you
haven't noticed, the other groups on the planet that already own their
titles, don't use the word permaculture; but in many many ways they are
slowlynevolving to the same thing.  Example:  the architects and "green
architecture"; sustainable development; deep ecology, organic gardening,
etc.   In many ways the permaculture community is already being scoffed at
by the "professional" communities as being amateur.  Personally, I don't
care, it's their problem.

Now having rambled on about that (sorry) I want to get to the other main
reason for this American Permaculture Institute that I do see as being
worthy, and that is for a collection point for project funding.

Mollison told us at an advanced course in May, 1996 that when he first
conceived of permaculture, he thought that it was going to take an army to
pull it off.  Well we have that army, he says.  (I don't agree but that's
off the point).  Now he wants to take it to the next step and set up a
permaculture development bank, like the world bank, that will fund
projects.  Well if you want money on this planet, where do you go?  If they
could pull that off and I could go and get $10 million for a project, then
we'd be on to semething.  So on that note I say, go for it guys.  I'll help
any way I can.

Gene

---

From: Rebbry <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:28:48 EDT

We've learned alot in the past 10-20 years about how men and women mature.
Men individuate by attempting to establish their uniqueness; women mature
through relationship.  Bashing Mollison is an example of what my friend David
Kramer calls "killing the father"--getting the father figure out of the way in
order make room for oneself.  Rebecca Bryant

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:07 -0400 (EDT)

I personally like my teachers to be alittle on the human (i.e. erring ) side.
it makes their level of knowledge seem more attainable.
Heck, Jesus didn't necessarily choose well in the friendship department  and
Buddah definitely was no fungi expert. I figure Mr. Bill and company are
behaving true to species.
I see filtering through teachers, apostles, and seed catalogs without the
benefit of an official designation , certificate, seal of approval ..... as a
major part of the lesson.
I want to make up my own mind..... permaculture may end up like
Protestants.....
with many denominations....It's diversity. many paths to God/Gaia/Perma...
it'll get the job done, I hope.
But I'm an optimist ( must be, I'm a fulltime musician!)
As this old joke says....... with 
all this horse sh.....t there must be a pony in here somewhere!
Hokahey!          Kiya Heartwood

On the post about perma - banking.......
A community loan fund where four or five people get together as a circle and
pool their resources to lend one member enough to buy 100 chicks say.....
When the first person pays this back ... the next can borrow. Each circle
decides who gets the money first and meets together for imput , advice, and
support. I heard about it through the Lakota Loan Fund on Rosebud where most
of the money was going to craft artists but I think the idea originated in
India. It's a way to start small and get things done.... but requires trust
and mutual support....What's that nice sentence about we will cooperate , not
compete?  I'm sure there's folks out there who have better details on this
circle banking but it's brain food nonetheless.