Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT)

Lawrence F. London, Jr. -+|+- Venaura Farm
[email-masked]   [email-masked]
http://metalab.unc.edu/london, /permaculture, /ecolandtech
EcoLandTech -+|+- InterGarden -+|+- Permaculture
-
Frank asked for ideas on pond building. Maybe we can start a thread on
this, if anyone is interested. My feedback is below.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked]
> In center of pond area is small elevated island with a few trees that I'd 
> like to keep. How do you suggest we build this pond for wildlife, native
> plantings, irrigation etc.?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Get a copy of Mollison's A Designer's Manual
2) The pond's edge should be crenelated, i.e. undulating, zigzag,
ragged, ["lobular embayments" is a term Mollison uses on P.78 of DM] 
rather than a smooth continous curve. See pps. 481-483 of DM on
"pond configuration and edge effects".
3) Where runoff runs into pond construct a slightly graduated slope with
different sized pebbles, rocks, gravel, sand - this could become an
area where shellfish could breed - though usually flowing water is
necessary - just a thought - maybe divert flow from a creek in and out of
the pond
4) Construct shallow, boggy, swampy areas for breeding grounds for aquatic
creatures - plant reeds, cattails and other shallow water aquatic plants
there (will provide cover for wildlife) 
5) Make sure you construct areas where the water is shallow to semi
shallow with rocks, sandbars, etc. for turtles and amphibians, esp. frogs
6) You want to be sure you have fertile ground at water's edge - so you'll
get lush plant growth, weeds, plantings, etc. This is essential for
wildlife feeding, breeding and cover, and shade in summer and erosion
control, and nutrient catchment and filtering

LL

'Every day the intelligent person learns something new, but every day
the wise person gives up some certainty'    The Buddha.

---
You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email-masked]

---

From: "Australia Felix" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:36:56 +1000

> > plantings, irrigation etc.?

Its pretty difficult in my experience to do all of these things if you
intend using the dam for irrigation - that is unless you are only irrigating
a small area and have a dam that has a capacity that well exceeds this use.
What we do find however is that many native plants do establish themselves
on what is a general water level - regardless of irrigation, seepage (some
people call this leaks !!) and annual evapotranspiration (1300mm/yr in our
area).  These plants are usually brought in by upper catchment inflows and
waterfowl. Another strategy is were we instruct clients to sensitively
harvest seedheads etc. of local riparian species and then simply scatter
them on the water, where eventually wave action will bring them back to
shore where they will naturally find their niche at the appropriate
water/dampness level.

With islands you nearly always compromise dam depth. This can only be
overcome if the dam is large enough for exit and entry batters from the
island to shore to bottom out to a level close to the maximum. As most small
dams dry (or have water used for irrigation) the first thing to appear is a
landbridge between shore and island. What we prefer to do on dams less than
5 Ml is to make penisulas instead. These are easier to construct, have a
similar aesthetic quality and in some areas have the same function.

Also "Design and Construction of Small Earth Dams" by KD Nelson, Inkata
Press, Melbourne1985. ISBN 0 909605 34 3; "Farming in Ponds and Dams - An
Introduction to Freshwater Aquaculture in Australia" by Nick Romanowski,
Lothian, Melbourne, 1994, ISBN 0 85091 630 5 (this author has produced many
fine titles that are permaculture-based; "Farm Water Supplies - Planning and
Installation" by Neil Southorn, Inkata Press, Melbourne, 1995, ISBN 0 7506
8912 9; Also any of the PA Yeomans books eg. The Keyline Plan (1954), The
Challenge of Landscape (1958) - my favorite, The City Forest (1971), Water
for Every Farm (1966, 1968 & 1993).

> "pond configuration and edge effects".

Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget. Also some of
those features require different machinery. Eg. We would use a dozer to make
most dams and they are capable of creating flowing linear edges. If we would
want to start cutting out different smaller shapes then we might need to
bring in either a backhoe or excavator which generally leave steepish
erodible batters, and require time consuming smoothing of excavated
overburden. If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.
(Another point is that dozers are not designed to push material around
tightish corners as it places too great a pressure on some operating parts -
they may appear invincible machines - they're not  and are damn expensive
things to repair). None of Bill's dams at the Tyalgum Institute property had
these features that I remember and I wonder whether any of his clients dams
have either - we need to speculate all options though to return back to the
what's possible - a point often missed....

> necessary - just a thought - maybe divert flow from a creek in and out of

Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to develop
sustainable engineered widths/depths. I find it better to develop drainage
depression into forestry/wetland systems so that we don't have water running
over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment trapping, and then have rocks
then gravels and sands (especially for swimming). Freshwater
shellfish/crustaceans (mussels and yabbies (Cherax destructor) in our area
don't need much encouragement to breed - all they need is mud and detritus.
Local knowledge helps there.

> shallow with rocks, sandbars, etc. for turtles and amphibians, esp. frogs

Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.

> control, and nutrient catchment and filtering

By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.
> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
[email-masked]

---

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:29:21 +1000

my major concerns from my pond experiences are:
1. an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed
2. not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have
proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises and
platypus)
so, i would build a small barrier that caught only large downpours and
allowed the continued flow through of daily or weekly rains.
3. trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.
our ducks are only suitable for the spring fed pond, they seem to have the
instinct to excete as soon as they get wet.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, 2 August 1999 1:16
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)
>
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:37:32 EDT

G'day Darren,

Oops ...I hit the send now button before I finished the last post ...sorry!

<<This can only be
overcome if the dam is large enough for exit and entry batters from the
island to shore to bottom out to a level close to the maximum.>> Oh, oh..I'm 
afraid I'm out of my depth :) on this. Please enlighten me further.

<<What we prefer to do on dams less than 5 Ml is to make penisulas instead.>> 
What size is <<5 Ml>> ?  The total pond area is about 1 acre with a depth of 
8'3" in middle. also like gentle slopes along edges.  What do you think?

<<"pond configuration and edge effects".

Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget.>>  This has 
got to be a relatively low budget affair...or it's not going to happen.  So 
how do we control the costs?

<<We would use a dozer to make
most dams and they are capable of creating flowing linear edges.>>  Would a 
loader be better than a dozer? The xcavator would do the work...he 's done a 
lot of farm ponds. Charge is $70 an hr...claims he could dig it in a day? Is 
that possible? Seems like a lot of dirt, shaping, top soil moving etc. for an 
acre. I don't have a clue:)

<<If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.>>  ?????

<<we need to speculate all options though to return back to the
what's possible - a point often missed....>>  Agreed!

<<Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to develop
sustainable engineered widths/depths>> How does one determine these flow 
rates which are probably contingent on rainfall off the steeply forested 
ridges at the back of the pond site? And what are sustainably engineered 
widths?

<<I find it better to develop drainage
depression into forestry/wetland systems so that we don't have water running
over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment trapping,>>  This is actually what 
is happening now as water flows through various drainage ways and channels to 
creek, wet land areas. Some areas have lots of crawfish...good sized. What 
happens when water dries up..do crawfish die out or can they survive in their 
holes?

<<Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.>>  We won't need to take out any 
trees in the pond area...but if it's desireable I have plenty of downed 
trees, and limbs piled up nearby. Please describe how to use them effectively.

<<By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.>>  Yup:)

Great post, and insights Darren. Thanks. Look forward to executing this.  
When I get back to NY and learn how to use a scanner I'll scan some pictures 
for the group.

Look forward to continuing thread. Should be a great FAQ for anyone building 
a PC farm pond.  Best to all.   Cheers.  Frank

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:03:07 EDT

Hello April,

Thanks for the input.

<<an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed>>  Granted...but 
how?

<<not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises 
and
platypus)>> I'm not damming any creeks.  Just trying to catch the water off 
the ridges for multi-use at a later date.  Rather than have too much water in 
spring...not enough later.  Else it all flows out the creeks, off the 
property. 

<<trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.>>  hmm...I was contemplating a few ducks...should i skip 
'em?

Appreciate the feedback.   Cheerio  Frank

---

---

From: "John Abdon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:38:28 -0700

Ponds occur everywhere on this planet where water is found in liquid form at
some time of the year. The difference between most contemporary designs and
naturally occurring ponds seems to have something to do with desire: natural
ponds dry up, usually rather quickly, and too often our implementations push
the 'wetness' envelope beyond the tolerance of various guild members
(microbial in particular).

Anyone is interested in extreme desert pond and oasis design,
implementation, and various consequences? I have first hand experience in
the creation of a number of rather large 'ponds'. Most of this was in and
around Arabia's Rub` al Khali, 1981 to 1989.

    `\\\\\\\\|||/
      (@@)            johnAbdon  [email-masked]
ooO_(_)_Ooo___________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_

----- Original Message -----
From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

---

---

From: georg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:26:00 +0200

>quality and seal.>>  hmm...I was contemplating a few ducks...should i skip

depends how you wanna use the pond.... i once planned and implemented a
small pond with carp and ducks - water also used to irrigate - ducks where
great, because they turn the water into a fertilizer/manure brew... so if
you wanna swim in it, skip'em

*

georg

********
follow your heart -
it is the only way to heaven on earth.. .  .
******************* * * *  *   *    *      *         *

---

---

From: georg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:28:58 +0200

>dissipates over the back side of the dam. Lespedeza is an amazing plant.

and if it lespedeza bicolor you can eat sprigtips, seeds and flowers, or
coppice every few years for excellent firewood

*

georg

********
follow your heart -

---

---

From: georg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:36:56 +0200

>(microbial in particular).

yep, i have read that quite often people drown in the desert.... (no,
seriously, they camp in a wadi and during the night a flood comes, caused
by rains dozends of miles upstream...)... but i am living in a climate
where there is more precipitation than evaporation, so there are lots of
ponds that never dry out.

*

georg

********
follow your heart -

---

---

From: "John Abdon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:41:34 -0700

Here's where I'm brushing up. How about your links?

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/ Center for Aquatic and Invasive Plants,
University of Florida

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/database.html Aquatic, Wetland and Invasive Plant
Information Retrieval System, University of Florida

http://pclt.cis.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1992/5/92.05.07.x.html
Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute 'Pond Ecology' tutorial.

http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/biores/pond.htm Pond Ecology Resources.
(http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/intro.htm is slow loading)

    `\\\\\\\\|||/

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 8:16 PM
Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:14:32 EDT

Hi,

I had wanted the island as a safe haven for ducks, water fowl.

peninsula would offer little protection from coons,  coyotes etc.

Floating rafts might be great for raising some catfish, or tilapia...what do 
you think?  Would water temp, quality be suitable...some fish are very 
susceptible to changes in water temp, levels of oxygen etc.  Catfish probably 
more tolerant.

BFN   Frank

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:38:19 EDT

G'day Mates

In a message dated 8/3/99 5:01:53 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<<Batters are expressed as a
width to height ratio. A retaining wall has no batter as it is straight up
and down or has a 1:1 batter.  A slope that falls 1 metre vertically over 3m
horizontally is a 3:1 batter.>>  Ah...I see.  Don't think we use the term" 
batters" in the US. I'm sure there are a few others too:)  You use "dams" for 
ponds etc.

Yes I was planning on a slope of 3:1 for the pond sides. Good to hear you 
confirm same.

<<There are a couple fo formulae to work this out (I just get my surveyor to
work it out on his computer as a DEM) but for working it out you need to use
the prismoidal formula.>>  Oh, oh...hvaen't a clue what the <<prismoidal 
formula>> is. he he

<<1.25 Megalitres (1 250 000 litres) >>  Conversion system problems again. 
OK... if I have this right one acre foot of water contains 1, 250,000 liters 
of water. Then if it were 8'deep all around( which it isn't) it would 
contain10 mega liters of water.  Am I doing that right?

OK...can anyone translate this into some useable statistics for irrigation, 
pumping etc. etc.

<<Caterpillar as
they have cubic feet/metres per hour figures for their different machines
(where operated optimally)>> Great idea!! Do you perhaps have the URL for 
that page bookmarked. It will save me some time.

<<The catchment runoff calculation is roughly as follows: (NB.
Metric is so much easier to work out all this stuff)

100 x A x R x Y litres>> Thanks for the formula...I'll call extension later 
today.

<<You need large trees preferably with durable timber so that they don't rot
too quick in the water. If you have a gentle enough entry slope then drag
them half in so that they are partially submerged. Again pictures would
help.>> Are you in effect creating snags?  will they look good, pose safety 
problems? probably good habitat/protection for some species.

Would cedars, locust work well? How about beech...I've got some hugh beeches 
that forester says I should take out of forest. Some are over 4' thick at 
DBH.  Sure wish I could find a use for that wood. Local mills don't give much 
because they say it warps and twists a lot.

Darren...appreciate your taking time from your mortgage lifter to respond. I 
know I'm grateful.  BFN

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:45:36 EDT

Hi John,

In a message dated 8/3/99 8:39:43 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<< natural ponds dry up, usually rather quickly, and too often our 
implementations push the 'wetness' envelope beyond the tolerance of various 
guild members>>  Hmmm...that's one of the reasons I'm looking to build a 
pond...to prevent loss of water on farm through evaporation , eventual 
drainage to creek. I'll only be using a relatively small portion of the 
spring abundance. Eventually I'd lie to have several small ponds 
strategically placed for watering cattle, small scale field irrigation, 
habitat etc.

How large were those ponds you constructed? Glad to have people with such 
expertise commenting. It will keep the romantics grounded in reality. he he  
BFN   Frank

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:55:34 EDT

G'day  mates

Seems like we have a few talented Aussie pond mavens on the list. Fantastic.

Just visited Peter's pages <A HREF="http://www.krtf.mtx.net/page13.html">KRTF 
water pages</A>.  Lots of good ideas. Thanks Peter...lok forward to your 
input.

I noticed though you were planting trees fairly close to the banks...is this 
primarily to stabilize the banks? or for shade, beauty etc.

I thought it was best to keep most of pond in sunlight, or dappled 
shade...and not have deciduous trees placed so that leaves do not accumulate 
at bottom of the pond?

Also if yo go with a 3:1 slope can you cut a shelf in at spots to set 
cerytain water plants in containers to get varying heights...will shelf hold?

Thanks. Best to all.   Frank 

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:00:39 EDT

Hi Georg,

In a message dated 8/3/99 9:38:22 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<< i once planned and implemented a
small pond with carp and ducks - water also used to irrigate - ducks where
great, because they turn the water into a fertilizer/manure brew>> sounds 
good...but sounds like it precludes using it for swimming too. Too bad...what 
if you simply put in a smaller # of ducks so manure wouldn't have such an 
impact.

Appreciate all the contributions.later...Frank

---

---

From: "John Abdon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:59:27 -0700

Ah, but alas, I am a hopeless romantic myself. But then, Rome is a strange
reference when pondering things arabesque... While my stay among the Arabs
was totally a pleasure (their warmth and generosity is legendary and real),
what I report here represents the worst case scenario in terms of the
'perma' in permaculture.

One of the worlds largest and most prolific aquifers, the Wasia, outcrops
all along the villages of the Al Hassa Oasis along the Arabian Gulf (that's
what it's called from that side of the gulf) and covers the Eastern region
of the Arabian Peninsula. Realize that a small error in planning hydrocarbon
exploitation results in a large aquifer issue at the least. Environmental
engineering was reverse-engineering in all cases.

The largest was created accidentally and was an environmental disaster in
its own right. An oil field had been developed in a remote region of the
Southeast Corner down near the Emirates. Some years went by before it was
discovered that the surface casing was leaking about 200,000 bbls per well
of water to the surface. There were 76 wells. The interesting thing was how
quickly:

1) subsurface salts formed an impermeable barrier
2) Africa/Eurasia bird species migration diversion developed (eagles,
flamingoes, you name it!)
3) Amphibians (frogs, toads, salamanders, newts) appeared. I think the
storks brought them, but they were there
4) The perimeter of the pond was characteristic of mature marsh (20 to 50
feet margin of cattail, very clean fragrance indicating healthy microbial
communities, etc.). More details if anyone's interested.

Total size of the 'pond' ~ 25 sq. kms. The case was laid out to the
authorities to study it for at least a few years. However, a workover barge
was moved to the location, all wells were repaired, and the lake was gone.
No oil was ever produced from the field: by the time the wells were in place
the oil was not needed on the world market.

One of the inland towns created to support the oil industry became very
large in the late 70's early 80's. Sewage and waste water were not planned
for. A number of settling ponds ~ 5 acres each were created. A strip of
trees 1/2 km by 10 km of various native (Jerusalem Thorn mainly) and
imported species (including a number of varieties of eucalyptus) were
planted utilizing drip irrigation of the partially clarified waste water.
This evaporation through the leaves solved the waste water flood threatening
the ancient village nearby.

    `\\\\\\\\|||/

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

---

---

From: "John Abdon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:02:37 -0700

http://www.fire.org/feis/plants/shrub/lesbic/value_and_use.html on
'Lespedeza bicolor'. Also 'Lespedeza thunbergii', 'Lespedeza capitata' but
don't know about nitrogen fixing, etc., for these.

    `\\\\\\\\|||/

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

> -----------------------------------------------
> Go here for upload/view/download of docs & pix:
> http://metalab.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 [email-masked] wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 8/3/99 4:13:50 AM, [email-masked] writes:
> >
> > <<Lespedeza is an amazing plant.>>  Hmmm...is lespedeza also a nitrogen
> > fixing legume...can't recall for sure. Also can it be utilized as
pasture for
> > cattle as part of a grazing mix?
>
> It is a legume and fixes nitrogen, reseeds itself and becomes permanently
> established this way and through root division. Very drought resistant,
> shades ground well. Again, an amazing plant. I think the variety I planted
> was Sericea Lespedeza. The farm supply companies usually have several
> varieties, some shorter, for mowing and baleing.
>
> > What kind od seed/variety did you plant? How much seed per acre? How did
you
> > sow it? How do you plant it into existing pasture/weed ground?
>
> Just broadcast it or drill it - make sure it gets planted at the right
> depth, i.e. shallow, I think. It will take a while to become established
> but will eventually outcompete nearly everything else. A very valuable
> plant.
>
> > With acres of ground to cover what do you feel is best way to disribute
the
> > overflow to ensure good even coverage? Drip system would work for high
$$
> > market garden areas, but what about pasture and small orchards?
>
> How about irrigation ditches and occasional flooding of areas planted to
> crops or trees. I was actually thinking of having a long row of small
> diameter concrete or galvanized culvert pipes embedded in the ground at
> shallow depth on the top of the dam (level enough to drive over or pull
> carts over) the overflow would then be distributed over a wide area to
> dissipate over and irrigate/fertilize the erosion-control plantings on
> the dam's slopes. Water channelling using a KeyLine plow could increase
> the area the water reaches - this could be redone from time to time. Just
> a thought.
>
> > Any other values, benefits, products from lespedeza...also can it be
> > contained fairly easily. I wouldn't want it to over run the place like
kudzu
> > or purple loose strife etc.
>
> Nothing wrong with Kudzu. Homework for you, Frank:
> How to integrate kudzu into various permaculture systems on one's
> property, emphazise the maintenance aspects of kudzu plantings :-)
>
> Here's something interesting on various cover crops used for grazing:
> (I have more info on organic chicken feed and cover crops at:
> http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/cover-crops
> http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/livestock
> http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new
> http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new-faqs
> I also have a copy oif the Morrison book Feeds and Feeding mentioned
> below, In case you want me to look something up.
>
> Speaking of books and libraries, who in this list is into
> collecting (hounding :-) publications on ag, landscaping, gardening,
> permaculture? I'm into it in a big way and have a huge library of books
> and mags. I know Scott is into this also, and I hear Bill Mollison is
> also. Others?
> -
> -
> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:20:25 -0500
> From: Greg & Lei Gunthorp <[email-masked]>
> Cc: sanet <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: organic chicken feed recipes.
>
> Ladino clover is a cool season pasture component that will run the highest
> levels of protein and amino acid levels (protein building blocks) of any
> pasture species.  It will easily bloat ruminants if it makes up too much
> of a percentage of the pasture.
>
> I would strongly suggest you go to the University library and pick up some
> old books on poultry production.  An old Morrison Feeds and Feeding, pre
> 1960, would be a good place to start.  I've got several old hog production
> books around here.  I used to have an old poultry production book.  The
> research has already been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of various
> pasture species in non-ruminant animal production.  Ladino clover was
> clearly the best choice.  It might be debatable now days whether alfalfa
> should be the king of pastures for chickens and hogs because a lot more
> money has been spent on grazing alfalfa species.
>
> A good non-ruminant grazing program in the midwest can be built around
> clovers, alfalfa, brassicas(primarily rape), and some vegetative grass.
> Percentage reduction in feed is going to depend a lot on the quality of
> pasture grown.  I've got sows that I haven't fed since January.  They
> gleaned corn fields all winter and are doing just fine now on pasture.  We
> are getting so dry now that I'm going to have to start feeding them.
>
> Good luck,
> Greg Gunthorp
> Free Range Hog Farmer
>
>
>
> ---

---

---

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:06:26 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Pete@Kenton Range Tree Farm wrote:

> Some basic stuff I've done can be found at  KRTF water pages
> I would like to share some of my experiences with interested people, so In the next few
> days I'll knock some things up and post
> them in pdf on Lawrences upload file site if that's ok.

Please do and encourage everyone else to also. We can make good use of
this as a way to xchange info & pix. But posting in pdf format is OK for
those with readers that can view that (I don't) so could you also 
convert these documents to plain text for the rest of us for easy reading
and incorporating into webpages (plain text only for this); we can build
some interesting interactive pages here with html.
 
> Just to make sure I do post some documents, I'll let you know what to expect.
>  Kenton Range Tree Farm Pages

Pete: You might need to set your email reader to plain text rather that
html'izing your messages. I get a lot of control codes/stray ascii
characters that confuse your message text for reading and the URL's
you listed for your pages didn't make it through.. Could you repost those,
specifically: Kenton Range Tree Farm Pages and KRTF water pages. 
Many thanks for this.

---

---

From: "John Abdon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:13:19 -0700

This goes to both this thread and the genetic engineering thread. Humans had
no business altering e.coli's genetic composition. Having been engineered to
help cows and bulls make copious quantities of fat for the gang, they now
are totally loose on the general populace, and coliform counts go up
squarely with waterfowl count... how about carved wooden decoys and a
recycled clarinet mouthpiece w/reed?

    `\\\\\\\\|||/

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

---

---

From: "Pete@Kenton Range Tree Farm" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:27:55 +0930

Hi Lawrence and group,
Just re-posting my url locations.
My web pages are really rough and desperately in need of a total makeover, and will get
it when time and experience permits.
Anyway they give a bit of an introduction as to what I've been doing for the last few
years.
Home page is at http://www.krtf.mtx.net
Water pages are accessible from there.

Pete Ravesteyn

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:01:18 EDT

In a message dated 8/3/99 5:44:39 PM, [email-masked] writes:

<<Speaking of books and libraries, who in this list is into
collecting (hounding :-) publications on ag, landscaping, gardening,
permaculture? I'm into it in a big way and have a huge library of books
and mags. I know Scott is into this also, and I hear Bill Mollison is
also. Others?>>  Ha...you have found me out. I too have quite a collection. 
Someday I might even decide to sell some:)

Many are out of print too. Lots of old OG,TMEN mags etc.  I'm a real hoarder 
too.

Ladino Clover...Greg... white ladino clover seed is real expensive down here. 
I think it was over $3 a lb...but I might be wrong...just recall it was 
expensive! I know it's lighter, and has more seed per lb.  but I'd rather 
find a substitute at lower $$. Any suggestions? 

Lawrence... watch out Kudzu is banned in many states. It can really take 
over; chokes out natives etc.

I know about it's protein content, fodder value...but I'd hate to get behind 
on controlling it. I'm told goats like it.

Lespedeza.. <<Just broadcast it or drill it - make sure it gets planted at 
the right
depth, i.e. shallow, I think>>  Now just how do you ensure that if you simply 
broadcast it. Or are you talking about broadcasting after you have a nice 
prepared field?

Right now grass has gone to seed, really weedy in some areas.  How do I best 
establish Lespedeza in such fields? Seems that you'd really need to broadcast 
heavily, and hope that it takes. Wouldn't growth be real spotty? 

Back to the pond...<<Water channelling using a KeyLine plow could increase
the area the water reaches - this could be redone from time to time.>>  
Please explain? are these plows available here? are they worth the investment?

Unfortunately some areas are above pond so water would need to be pumped up 
hill.

Got to go.  Thanks for the post and URL's.   Frank

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:39:46 EDT

In a message dated 8/4/99 4:39:20 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<< and Whole Earth Catalog, and Co-Evolution Quarterly, Horticulture,
Country Journal, Harrowsmith, Scientific American, Fine Gardening, and
more>>  LOL!  Yup and even some New Alchemy stuff:)

<<Broadcast it them mow the field. The cut weeds/grass will cover and muilch
the lespedeza seeds so it can germinate.>>  Ok..I'll give this is a try...if 
I don't till it first.  Thanks. Bye for now.   Frank

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 11:22:34 EDT

Hi ,

Well I spoke to the folk at the local extension office. They tell me I can 
make a pond well over an acre, and it should hold water real well:)

The pond site would be paralell to the farm road but about 20' back from it. 
On the other side of the raod is the edge of a 2.5 acre fenced market garden 
area...that I would like to irrigate as needed from the pond.

At the rear of the pond to the north and east are fairly steeply sloped 
forest, due east land rises slightly to a knoll with woods on other side of 
drainage way.

To the south& west  is fairly flat pasture land dotted with evergreens, and 
trees.

Pond site contains a good # of trees...about 25.

I hope to make it an acre in size.

High point was staked by extension at 0.3" the dam point at 8'6"

The run off curve is 70....don't really understand what this means???

The rain fall over evaporation differential is 8. Annual rainfall is normally 
ca 51 inches( not this droughty year) in area. This was given to me by 
extension. If I understood the fellow right..that means over 80% of rainfall 
is lost through evaporation!!! That sure seems like a hugh loss. Any comments?

Cubic Ft per Sec off hills was computed as 20 based upon a 10 yr storm of 4.5 
inches when ground is fully saturated.

25 yr storm is given as 5.3 inches when ground is fully saturated .

OK...can someone tell me the significance of all these numbers and how I use 
them to design the pond????

I want to construct this pond with as few $$$ as possible...so I'd appreciate 
any suggestions as how to do this given the anticipated size of an acre.

How do you figure out how much dirt has to be excavated from such a pond when 
land is gently sloping to south and west, a bit steeper just off woods into 
pond area.

Also I'm unclear on "core fill" concept and how to set up the dam, and 
install a drain, overflow vent, anti-seepage collar,to properly size outflow 
pipes etc.etc.

It's far more complicated than I thought:)

Look forward to your comments.   I hope this exercise will be of use to many 
of us who are building farm ponds.    Frank

---