Subject: Re:

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:46:06 -0800 (PST)

At 02:29 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Jeff Owens wrote:
>I encountered several discussions of Permaculture recently.  Many
>on the net, some in magazines, and also mention in newspapers.
>Each one was different and I found it pretty confusing.  My
>attempts to define Pc also resulted in some confusion and I
>wondered if others run into these same problems.

>Ideas, corrections?
>
> ----------
>Jeff Owens ([email-masked])  Zone 6-7  Permaculture
> Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV
>
Hi Jeff,

The most important description relating to permaculture is that it is a
*design* system.  I use the following definition for a quick opener:

"Permaculture is an *ethical* design system based on information derived
from the study and observation of natural, or wild systems that is then used
to inform the design of domestic systems.  The subject of permaculture is
all aspects of the human living situation with a goal of sustainable human
settlement in harmony with the wild environment."

Of course this simple definition then leads to a discussion of permaculture
ethics, and what is sustainable etc.  But I have found that there is no
avoiding the long conversation, nor do I try if someone is truely interested.

What makes permaculture unique and not just another gardening system, or
forestry system or building system is that it is a design system.
Permaculture practicioners are designers first and foremost - I hope.  At
least this is what I learned and now teach.

My greatest fear is that permaculturists are taking the easy bits of
permaculture such as gardening, animal husbandry, water harvesting,
construction and land forming and leaving out the hard stuff like ethics,
pattern, and invisible structures.  When this happens permaculture is
eviserated of its power and wonder. 
*************************************************************************
<[email-masked]>
Permaculture Institute
Scott & Arina Pittman 
PO Box 3702
Pojoaque, NM 87501

Ingenio Patet Campus

---

From: [email-masked] (j a white)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:01:27 -0800

Does anyone have any experience in successfully removing Bermuda grass?

Someone had once suggested to layer cardboard down on top of it to block
the sunlight, and even punch holes through the cardboard and plant
mangles or the like.  Obviously, this particular type of grass is very
tenacious and the roots can go very deep into the soil and will travel a
great distance to search for and seek out light.  

Any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated.

Jenifer White
Central Valley, California

(it is raining quite heavily now, so the ground is very soft, if not
saturated.)

---

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:36:15 -0500 (EST)

http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html   
[email-masked]   [email-masked]

On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, j a white wrote:

> the sunlight, 

This is the best mulch to smother it with.

> and even punch holes through the cardboard and plant

Don't do that or it will get through and spread.

> great distance to search for and seek out light.  

Absoultely. Dig it up and compost it or cover it with a considerable
amount of clean dirt. You can try interplanting with it the following:

rye grain
grain sorghum
fescue (tall)
lambs quarters
pigweed
Johnson Grass (less a problem weed than Bermuda)

---

From: [email-masked] (j a white)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:01:27 -0800

Jenifer White

---

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:36:15 -0500 (EST)

rye grain
grain sorghum
fescue (tall)
lambs quarters
pigweed