Subject: Central Coast/Cal Poly Potent Info

From: "Akiva Werbalowsky" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:23:58 PST

Please excuse cross-postings of this message.

The first part of this message is about the Central Coast Permaculture 
Guild listserve and has been forwarded so you can have a chance to 
subscribe if interested.

The list is a collaborative effort, mostly by coastal residents of 
Turtle Island (American continent) exploring the ecological design 
process known as Permaculture. 

Please refer to the explanatory website:

http://arashi.seattleantioch.edu/hypermail/aboutccpg.html

or to an intro announcement at the end of this message.

At some near date, I'll write an extended welcome/introduction, as well
as technical descriptions of this email/brodcast-list process. I am
humbly learning myself, so please help if you can and be patient.

And until next message, a short...

Cal Poly PermaReport:

Organic strawberries now being rained in (beds act as mini swales on
contour), a Permaculture planting of three thousand plants at the Cal
Poly Food Forestry Unit section of the Student Farm. Intercropped trees
are now being sourced with help from the local California Rare Fruit
Growers chapter (Thanks for the impromptu gift of two cherimoyas, our
first new trees for the site!) Any donation or recommendation of
particularly vigorous, adapted, and beneficial trees/plants are welcome
and appreciated. It's especially the cultural know-how which we invite
and encourage, a true bioregional wealth. 

Mulching and seeding plans continue: native grasses, favas, and
something special: CCOF Green Swiss Chard Seed (Survivor plants now
yielding mature seed)

a quick announcement that 
everyone is welcome to participate in the seeding/cover cropping of the 
Cal Poly Permaculture site as the weather allows over the next few 
weeks.  Friday the 14th could be an all day project if dry, if not, the 
first good dry spell.

Contact me or Julian (phone#528-0497).

Julian is also the contact person for the
important planning weekend 
with Larry Santoyo Nov. 22-23.  This gathering will cultivate a focused 
design for our collaborative efforts for seasons to come.

Anyone wishing to do an educational growout of the chard seed that
remains from this week's harvest can pick it up from me, or send a large
self addressed-stamped envelope to the address below to receive a packet
of seed. If you send seed of your own which is particularly suited to
Central coastal CA permaculture approaches we will be happy to continue
the cycle. 

Swales holding beautifully in first big rain today. Seedsman Julian
Kayne developing timing for flaming weeds from bunds prior to native
grass seed sowing. 

I'm headed back to the field-

Enjoy the heaven water,
Akiva

***********************************

Invitation to join the Central Coast Permaculture Guild Mailing List

          This list is a community service extension of Cal Poly San
Luis Obispo's newly forming Permaculture Certificate program. To find
out more information about this program, or to become involved, you can
e-mail Akiva. 

This listserv is free and open for new subscriptions, and we welcome any

folks, especially those in the Central Coast area of California to 
become members. 

Joining is simple. Send a message to [email-masked]
with the message in the body "subscribe ccpg". 

To send a message to the entire subscribed base of the listserv, 
address your message to [email-masked] 

If you need more information about how majordomo works, send a 
message containing the word "help" to majordomo. 

Enjoy! We welcome any feedback that you may have. Please feel free to
forward this message.

***************************************
Akiva Werbalowsky
California Polytechnic State University
College of Agriculture 
Bioresource Department
San Luis Obispo, CA  93407

email: [email-masked]

phone: (805) 756-6153
Fax             -2626

"Cultivating Bioregional Stewardship" 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:10:41 -0500 (EST)

I hate to mention it but I made several attempts to get through to the CCCP
list and got back more garbage and nonsense than I have ever encountered from
any automated robotic system. No swales holding there.

I gave up.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:55:13 +1100

The "Weeds and What They Tell", by Ehrenfried Phieffer.
has few pictures, SO unless you
know your weeds well by the same common name you too
may find this frustrating.
Also, what weeds tell in one place may mean something different in another,
E.g. Dock in USA is touted to be indicative of hardpan, increasing acidity
and previous cultivation, [Phieffer]
in Australia the dock you see may be the native variety that has grown as
big as the introduced one [cribb and cribb]
because it has had a lot nitrogen directed to it and indicates waterlogging.
Which to the permaculturalist is a gold mine of opportunity.

Natural pockets of rainforest,  Acid soil here
may give same results as
distrubed soils in other, lower rainfall areas.
Stinging nettle is prized in Europeand biodynamics rely on its healthy
interaction with their soil.
Whereas the different Australian soils have reliance on different plant
species and micro-organisms (although this too evolves with plant changes).

Too me, kikuyu is my most persitant "weed" (not respecting diversity) and it
indicates too much
sun (not good for any plants here with high UV) and not enough water
catchment. Other plants get a chance
such as the native grasses and native violets when I close the canopy a
little and hold more water in the soil.

April

April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC
LC permaculture Visions
[email-masked]
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND
-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: Friday, 14 November 1997 7:31
Subject: Re: Central Coast/Cal Poly Potent Info

>Hi,
>
>Just wondered if there is some sort of publication/research available that
>contains a list of "indicator" plants and what they indicate.
>I've seen lots of scattered references, but wonder if there's not something
>fairly comprehensive out there.
>
>Thanks. frank
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:21:29 -0500 (EST)

April:

Are your native violets in genus Viola?

Dan

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  One is now underway.  Next Live program:  Paraguay, 9/98.
Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52,
Sparr FL 32192 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:48:29 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 11/21/97 10:34:42 AM, you wrote:

>Hi, April
>
>Seems like the more we learn the more we realize we don't know.
>
>Here I was looking for common denominators/signs that could be applied to my
>farm. 
>
>I value your knowledge and experience and your logic here seems persuasive
>about  weeds having different indicator values depending on soil, locality
>and a host of possible other factors.
>
>After a while a lot of this becomes so complex that it becomes frustrating.
>I'd like fairly clear cut proven ideas and systems to emulate on the farm I
>hope to purchase real soon. I'd like to utilize best thinking , design it
>into a system that takes into account  soil, climate, natural patterns, and
a
>host of other local factors, and human preferences etc.
>
>Appreciate your thoughts on such a system...is there a system that is
adapted
>especially for given bioregions etc. that work with nature rather than
>against it, but still allows us to produce food, utilize pasture etc.
>
>I know this is very, very broad and subject to all sorts of qualifications,
>and outside factors.
>
>My dream is to have an old fashioned small scale farm with a variety of farm
>fitted enterprises that work with nature, and is sustainable, and
>economically feasible.
>
>Whew...anybody care to expand or comment on this.  frank

Frank:

Permaculture is site specific.  Good permaculture does not substitute recipes
for experience and careful design.  It is not engineering.

Dan

---

From: "Steve Diver" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:35:40 +0000

Frank, 

OK, let's make it simple.  Call your NRCS office (used to be 
SCS), call your UC Extension office, AND call your local 
FFA instructor at the local high school. 

Land evaluation is a regularly feature of these USDA/land-grant
system agencies.  

Future Farmers of America and 4-H have contests where KIDS
perform expert evaluations of land based on plant type, terrain, 
water features, and soils.  

The grownups in Extension and NRCS and FFA teach these kids
how to do it.  They also publish manuals on land evaluation.  Some of
the local offices can probably provide them for cheap.  If not, 
you can get photocopies from a university library through 
Inter-Library Loan. 

Thus, get with your local folks and learn from them.  They can 
point to grasses and wetland plants and brushy plants and tree
types and all kinds of plants that tell you so much about your
land.  

For example, I can walk onto a piece of land here in the Ozarks 
and say a whole lot about land:

* broomsedge grass (locals here call it "sage" grass) is an indicator 
of low pH (almost always below 6.0), poor grazing management,
and poor soil aeration
* oak species and trunk diameter tells a lot about soil type and soil depth
* vegetation type and height and spread of tree cover says alot about slope
*slope says alot about vegetation type and height and spread of tree cover 
* pennsylvania smartweed is an indicator of wet soils 
* and so on.....

At the basic level, you want to get a feel for your land.  This will
help you understand the proper location of a garden, outhouse, 
pond, orchard, the sacred spot, and all that.  

Evaluation of soil for production of garden plants is best done
through soil tests.  Regardless, you will need compost and 
rock minerals.  Cover crops are essential.  Worms eat garbage.  

One day in the future, after several years of learning and observing, 
when you are working in your garden or raising a market crop....you 
will look down and see a weed species and....poof!...you will realize 
that you need more calcium in your soil, or that you are compacting the 
hell out of your soil with that stupid roto-tiller (hmmm, better go ahead 
and invest in that mechanical spader you think to yourself, or try some of 
that no-till stuff I keep hearing about).  

But, do not get hung up on the minutia before you even get started. 

In other words, "get the engine running first, then adjust the 
carbeurator."

Wormly, 
Steve Diver

> Date:          Fri, 21 Nov 1997 06:14:08 -0500 (EST)
> Reply-to:      [email-masked]
> From:          [email-masked]
> To:            [email-masked]

> into a system that takes into account  soil, climate, natural patterns, and a
> Appreciate your thoughts on such a system...is there a system that is adapted

--
[email-masked]

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:08:13 +1100

Well I am no engineer although I am married to one.
Frank, your headed in the right direction.  My answer is to talk to a lot of
people,
let them ramble, let them show you their property, try and access as many
permaculture
sites as you can AND look at what is doing well in the area you choose to
set up camp in.
Be careful of major pitfalls 'though - like starting out in a toxic region
or highly conservative
as these can be forces against you.
Having a sense of community is just as valuable as a good
rainfall and good soil site.
Check out my homepage - there are lot of permaculture tools you can toy
with,
there are links to some really great homepages closer to you.
If there were no formulas for permaculture we couldn't teach it- there would
be no common language
to discuss concepts and no building on previous generations of experience.
I DO agree that every site is different, but I could probably find a lot
looking very similar and to
the (self-professed) novice - this is something you should seek.
April

P.S.  no shame it not knowing -
we all know we could never know enough,
when I forget this I fill my brain with gallons of information
and forget my friend's birthdays.