Subject: Re: Growth of PC

From: Jack Rowe <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:00:24 -0500

I think a couple very good points have been raised concerning growth of
PC/sustainability:

Sherry Levi pointed to the important fact that, though change does not
occur in apparently-regular progressions, this does not mean it is not
taking place. Bona fide cognitive-framework changes (paradigm shifts,
'cracks in the cosmic egg') must at a certain point pass through a process
of gestation during which some of the deepest changes are happening on a
non-visible level. After we are exposed to a new cognitive framework --
even, or especially, after we intellectually 'believe' it -- time is needed
for our brains/thought structures/paradigms to absorb the new ideas
thoroughly into new, functioning thought pathways. This is because most of
our thoughts take place along established pathways, even when our
intellectual knowledge supasses the limits of those pathways. 

Time is always needed for new ideas to be absorbed in a 'real' way, on both
personal and social levels. Do we have this time? Yes and no. But the fact
is that the necessary cognitive changes ARE occurring, on the level of
gestation, and on a global scale. These changes in our reality-structures
are converging from a variety of sources (permaculture, addiction
therapies, 'New Age' attitudes, etc) into a fairly unified structure of
sustainability. We need only to remember how recently what we now take for
granted was not even concieved, to take heart that changes are in fact
proceeding apace (sadly, there is simultaneously another evolutionary
branch of thought which is acting to solidify thinking along the old lines,
and these two global systems will eventually have to be reconciled).

Dan Hemenway raised another good point, which is that all of us, as
teachers, are underqualified. This is not because we are inadequate, but
simply because the new ways are not even known yet and must still be
formulated. In fact, I believe that as teachers and students (as humans!)
we owe it to ourselves to always retain the consciousness that we are
always underqualified. This attitude is what enables us to remain
perpetually young and receptive, to continue learning from all around us. 

This is one important reason I support a Permaculture Academy (another
invisible structure) where basics would be taught in a systematic fashion.
I see too great a dearth of basic information about plants, about
sustainable financial and social structures, about teaching methods, about
energy study, etc, etc. In addtion to formalized learning structures, I
further believe it is time for each person with specialized knowledge about
any subject of sustainability to undertake the discipline of putting that
information into circulation by publishing through any of the available
means (this is fundamentally what we are doing on this list). All of us
without a particular specialty can pick one, learn about it, and share
through direct teaching, or through print or electronic publications. I
really feel we have to become as well educated, or better, than the
mainstream scientists, agronomists, businesspersons, systems designers, etc
who are working to maintain the present structure of death and destruction.

Jack Rowe

---

From: Elfpermacl <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:46:04 EST

Jack:

My guess is that Sherry was alluding to the normal progress of succession
(missed the post somehow) in which apparent change is followed by apparent
quiet periods.  This is observable and results, if graphed conceptually, as a
set of ascending stairs.  As the ecosystem comes closer to utilizing 100
percent of available resources (sun, water, minerals, whatever), the vertical
rise shortens and the horizontal rest period lengthens.  This is, in fact, a
log scale, when averaged and looked at from afar.  (Getting into the math will
be distracting--suffice that this happens.)

In permaculture, then, being subject to all natural laws, even those we'd like
to evade, we can expect that after the first flush of growth there will be a
stagnation period, then a smaller flush of growth, etc.  Centralization of the
effort will sap energy, of course, and probably stall out the processs.  We
must avoid the forms of the mainstream society or be sucked back into their
patterns.  It remains to be seen whether the centralists, as they form their
institutes, etc., 
will take the rest of us with them when they sink.  I guess it depends on how
big they get before it happens.

Meanwhile, back to the patterns of transformation and succession, another
factor is critical mass.   Here Mollison's Tea Spoons and Butter Knives story
pertains.  What is required, of course, is critical mass of the correct
assembly of elements.  I think Bill was on the right track in encouraging
people to fill many kinds of niches, not just teaching.  

Finally, I don't think I said that none of us is qualified to teach
permaculture, though maybe I mispoke.  If I did, I said a dangerous thing, for
it would be an excellent excuse for the widespread poor quality of
permaculture teaching we see.  I think permaculture itself is still evolving,
so none of us is qualified in that sense, we are talking about an unfinished
concept.  I don't think it will ever be finished, but we still have some large
steps left before the change tapers to a gradual pace.  We need to better
understand, for starters, the importance of decentralization, elders,
principles of transformation, participatory decision making, consensus, and
self-regulating networks.  

It seems that we have this conversation from time to time and nothing comes of
it.  So I guess I'll move on to other topics.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982),
Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  One is now underway.  Next Live program:  Paraguay,
8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway,
P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html

---

From: YankeePerm <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:20:51 EST

In a message dated 1/10/98 12:54:15 PM, you wrote:

<<Sirs,
	If growth of pc is a goal, why not put a pc course on the internet or
web, so people located throughout the world, dealing with their own
environments, markets, economies, strengths, and social situations,
could learn and impliment the principles... isn't implimentation of pc
more important than charging money, and setting up hierarchies for the
transfer of such knowledge and principles?  I have been on this
listserve, and am operating in a situation that surely could benefit
from such principles, but cannot afford to travel, or pay to learn; yet
what I learn and impliment, and share with others in the local
community, could further the goals of pc, moreso than the positioning of
titles or accredations next to my name, and the econmomic and
environmental benefits of implimenting such knowledge should be my
reward for pursuing and learning pc, not my expectation of financial
gain by charging others for such wisdom.  Granted information and the
dissemination of info has value, but with technologies available like
this, and the imminent problems we as a global community face without
implimentation of pc, isn't it a small upfront investment to be made by
the pc community that presently exists?  Further,  isn't it reasonable
to expect that the pc movement would see significant return to that
investment as the feedback from new practitioners validates or refines
certain practices or principles, so as to increase the underlying value
of its theories and concepts?

Sir:

Of course I HAVE put a PC course on the internet.  However, people DO have to
pay to participate, as there is no other way as yet for me to be compensated
for my time.  Also, I'm not sure that "free" would work anywhere the cash
economy has taken over.  We did programs in New Zealand on the basis of koha,
about 20 programs in 5 weeks it turned out.  Very intensive.  Koha is a Maori
word meaning, roughly in a language not equiped to convey the concept, a gift
returned for a gift received.   It is the way most sustainable cultures
sustain people on paths of service such as leaders, healers, teachers, etc.
With koha, you put in what is right for you, considering what you have
received and what you can afford.  Generally, parkehas (whites, the
priveledged groups) paid the minimum they could get away with, so that at some
presentations to parkehas, we did not even get gas money back.  OK, not
sustainable, I'd say.  And about what I'd expect in the USA, and inother
industrialized countries.  When we presented to Maori groups, the koha was
significant, whether given by individuals, or whether given by an association
and determined by komatura (recognized Elders, note the caps.)  In the latter
case, where the money came from the common pot, it was not uncommon for
individual students to proffer a small gift.  For example I still have and
cherish the first basket of New Zealand flax made by one woman.  While I came
to NZ prepared to work for nothing for the Maori, it turned out that without
their kohas, the trip would have been a financial disaster for the local
(parkeha) organizers.  

Free sounds nice.  However people have to be sustained and to sustain the
systems and resources they use to provide service.  I like the koha system and
use it wherever I work with people who are close to their traditional roots.
It is the basis of all scholarships to our programs, and we offer substantial
scholarships in terms of percentages.  In my experience, doing this work since
1981, you need to be independently wealthy to work on the basic of koha, or
the cruder "sliding scale," with Westerners and people whose economic
consciousness has become Western.  In the 17 years I have taught permaculture,
I have had just 1 student volunteer something like a koha, and one student
when given the chance to pay later actually paid.  

I think, also, that there are a number of people who have perhaps put
themselves out on a limb in the economic extremes to which they have gone to
be able to teach permaculture.  If we come up with yet another way to clear
cut the market for these people, I don't think permacutlure is served.  I
would be affected only in that I would have less work to do, though it might
be a shame that all the slides and outlines I've developed get tossed, but
everything returns to the one sooner or later and letting go is as imprtant a
lesson as any in permaculture.  I'd certainly not contribute to something
which was so avidly in competition with permaculture teachers worldwide as to
contribute to an effort which offers for nothing something they need to be
paid to do.  The result, if done, will be a further reduction in the number of
permaculture teachers and a boost to the anti-permaculture effort to
centralize and control permaculture as a movement.

---

From: FranksFarm <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:08:30 EST

In a message dated 1/10/98 4:12:20 PM, you wrote:

<<I concur with Geoff.  A related question is how to share 
permacultural knowledge in a way that's accessible to anyone
who might be sympathetic, but who can't reasonably assimilate
the whole cultural attitude.>>

Hi, All

Well spoken Michael!

I feel the same way. far too much mystery surrounds PC. I'm very sympathetic,
but need to find tools,principles, discoveries to assimilate on my homestead
farm etc. frank

---

From: [email-masked] (David de Vries)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:37:31 +1100

My post encouraged a wealth of permaphilosophising.  Noone appeared to
share my initial premise that Pc was still drastically understaffed.
Before touching on some of the excellent points made, I would like to try
and establish the premise that we are too thin on the ground and rapid
growth is a priority.  Maybe not _the_ priority - but still a priority.

~~Sherry Levi stated:
"..The thought system has to become fairly well articulated in a process of
intensive development by a few pioneers before it develops sufficient
explanatory power to become appealing as a better representation of reality to
be widespread.  It is tested for functionality by use-- which is what all of
us permacultivating our living spaces are doing-- and in the more varied
circumstances, the better."

How many pioneers in how many circumstances are required?

Jack Rowe stated:
"We can operate to sow as many seed nuclei on as many levels as we can,
trusting them to grow if they are viable and placed in fertile ground (if
all the seeds grow like magic beans, great -- but remember to sow even the
little ones because the growing medium and conditions are changing, and
there is strength in diversity)."

How many diverse levels with how many seeds?

Pick an average size continent, say North America.  How many regions need
to be researched for each to become sustainable?  How many different
combinations of local cultures (indigenous/imported), climate, catastrophe
susceptibility, soils, unique biodiversity, degradation etc need to be
characterised and sustainable solutions identified.  100? 1000?

How many people need to be in each region to effectively characterise it.
10? 100?

I suggest that without 100,000 NA enthusiasts spread very evenly, we are
set to lose a significant proportion of NA's diversity (cultural and
biological).  This would be a rotten shame.  The question I am interested
in is, how does Pc get to sufficient numbers (100's of thousands in each
continent)?

I thought everyones' comments about adopting paradigm shifts and critical
mass were spot on.  I wasn't looking that far in the future. Within the
research phase of identifying solutions there is still a lot of territory
without any researchers.

David

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:32:20 +1100

I started the first Internet teaching project, writing the course for 3
years.
I attended the PC convergence and contributed a little to the internet
discussion group,
Bill and his partner at the time were really hopeful for this media.  I was
surprised by the
gap sometimes between the potential and the limitations for internet
learning.
I work six days and week now, have students from Alaska to Remote Northern
Territory Australia,
what I plan to do with the rest of my energies in this field is to let go.
not to build any expectations, not to expect and dictate directions and
funding,
just to let the technology and more important the particular type of
students (now graduates)
dictate the growth and direction,
I'm just in for the ride now.
I've been asked to do video link and other ideas come by,
but the bottome line is flexibility and staying in touch with real life
people and
real life practice.
I have written about some of the projects ethics on competition in my paper
for Perth Conference '96
this is on my homepage links.

April

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC
LC Permaculture Visions
leaders in permaculture learning by correspondence
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff King <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: Sunday, 11 January 1998 4:53
Subject: Re: Growth of Pc

>YankeePerm wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that playing numbers games and thinking success/failure is
the
>> way to go.  Of course we have to look at what works and what doesn't
work.
>> Quickie mass courses don't turn out qualified people, in my view.  There
are a
>> number of designs for short programs, not for certification, that suit
people
>> who just want to design for themselves.  We need longer, more customized,
>> courses for people who will teach others.  Professional designers, well
we
>> don't need many designers at all or we have failed.  Only when everyone
can
>> design for him/her self have we taken permaculture as far as it can go.
>>
>> Manwhile it is more important to do our best than to think we understand
if we
>> have succeeded or failed.  The only real failure is failing to do our
best.
>> If the world goes down the tubes anyway, well that is the final lesson in
>> humility.  We REALLY are not in charge, except that we have the power and
>> responsibility to use our personal gifts as effectively and appropriately
and
>> consistently as possible.
>>
>> Who knows who is teaching out there and how?  How many of my 30 extension
>> agent students from the Philippines are teaching permaculture.  One,
maybe.
>> Twenty, as likely.  Even people I think won't do anything with the
material
>> surprise me by suddently blooming forth, a decade or more after the
course.
>> Nothing done as well as we can from our deepest convictions is done
wrong.
>>
>> As far as Bill's mass permaculture baptism experience in California is
>> concerned, well it is done.  It isn't anything that should be repeated,
but
>> we've got to live with the results, and we'll find out over the next few
years
>> what the more conspicuous results are.  Personally, I'm glad it was
California
>> and not Florida.
>>
>> What permaculture needs, in my opinion, is not better numbers but better
>> teaching.  This goes for Bill as much as anyone.  We need longer programs
>> where people have more shared experience, longer times to integrate new
>> experiences, longer times to form questions and protestations and extend
>> discussions, and longer times to do at least one really good design as
part of
>> the certification process.  We also require our students to practice
>> explaining permaculture a few times during the course and then we discuss
how
>> it when, techniques, etc.
>>
>> In general, I'd like to see someone organize a program some of us with
long-
>> term and diverse experience to come and teach--a workshop or series of
>> workshops for teachers.  And I'd like to see everyone in permaculture,
form
>> Bill on down, take the spirit of the non-competition ethic a little more
>> seriously.  This includes cutting back, at least, on the behind the
scenes
>> backbiting that is in fact an aspect of competition in this movement.
While I
>> have come to learn not to be surprised that we bring the flawed behaviors
from
>> the mainstream society into permaculature, I think it is very useful to
>> identify these behaviors and start to eliminate them from our own
behaviors.
>Sirs,