Subject: RE: Vegan Pc - again

From: CK Valois/B Brummitt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:05:24 -0500 (CDT)

We used to raise goats, chickens, a couple of pigs here and there, geese and
ducks.  About 10 years ago we made a conscious decision to not keep animals.
 We still eat meat, but it is definitely in abundance around here...mostly
due to the inbalance of nature caused to a great extent by humans.  This
area historically was north of most deer populations, and instead was home
to woodland bison, elk and caribou.  When the area was logged around the
turn of the last century, and homesteaders put the plow to the land while
trapping and/or shooting the native large predators, a grave situation was
created, ie your example of, "there are way more deer than the area can
handle"...

We eat deer, grouse, fish etc.  I personally will not eat migratory
waterfowl, preferring species that stay in my immediate area, rather than
grazing in the delta of the (grossly polluted) Mississippi River.

We utilise other natives, such as wild rice, currants, gooseberries,
highbush cranberries, wild plums, wild cherries, etc.  We use alfalfa and
clovers that we've planted (and cut) to aid in our composting and mulching
of gardens.  We do find folks that have an abundance of animal fecal
material they want cleaned out of outbuildings and utilise that as well.  We
also compost our own fecal matter.

By not keeping animals we've been able to travel when we'd like (especially
winters).  We've worked in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, and
Mexico...learning a great deal from the experiences.  

If you are a part of a community (such as Lee describes) then this is all a
moot point.  There would be someone available to care for stock while other
folks take periodic sabbaticals.

My (inflated) nickel.

Bruce

  Cheryl Valois and Bruce Brummitt
           <[email-masked]> 
             46N56' 95W20'
   Visit the Natural Building Gallery
   <http://www.zianet.com/blackrange>

********
Well that's just it - once you start encouraging wildlife around where
you're growing your food (or the wildlife show up anyway because you do
such a good job of restoring their habitat), the trouble is they are going
to EAT your food.  If you've done your job well and planted a lot of nuts
and fruiting shrubs and so on, you won't mind that the wildlife get some of
course.  But all that food will eventually cause their populations to rise
to the point where it's a problem.  So unless there are other predators in
the area it seems to ultimately become unavoidable that you have to kill
some animals, if you live in an abundant area.

I have already run up against this problem here in the southeastern US...
there are way more deer than the area can handle.  Personally I'm
vegetarian and don't want to kill any - but I'm glad there are other people
around who eat meat and like to hunt!  So I guess what I'm saying is that a
community can support some number of vegans or vegetarians, but trying to
form a whole community around veganism would, IMO, be ultimately a problem.
 Just the amount of land that would have to be used up to grow enough
grains and legumes to support a lot of vegetarians, could be a problem.
Whereas eating ruminants who graze on native grasses or tree browse doesn't
pose the same problem.  So again there is something of an impasse when you
try to incorporate veganism into PC... 

= Lee =

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From: "Steve Diver" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:24:47 +0000

The PC tribe is so damn adamant about animals, yes?  

Where are all the urban animals supposed to exist?  

Maybe PC is over blown as a solution to world problems, 
if the 75% of the population living in urban places are 
excluded from practicing PC because landlords don't allow 
chooks and cows to live in apartments.  Of course, in a cool town 
like Fayetteville or Berkeley or Asheville, we have progressive 
landlords and they understand we need these animals to practice
sustainable living.  Thus, weird sounds sometimes echo through the 
hip neighborhoods starting in the early morning.  By day--off to our
income destinations to pay for the feed--we tie the single cow to the 
shower faucet and place hay in the bathtub.  We have created a special 
micro-barrel composting method, mixing in-situ wheatgrass sprouts with 
kitchen scraps and cow poop.  The compost makes a fine potting mix for 
container-grown veggies and houseplants.  The latest appropriate 
technology craze is really an old indigenous solution, strap a poop sack
underneath the cow so it collects in one easy-to-retrieve bag ....instead of 
the labor-intensive pooper scooper.  Sort of like sheet mulching instead of 
hoeing.  There is an ethical debate here in Fayetteville though.  Some PC'ers 
have adopted high intensity discharge lights to raise indoor veggies, while 
others askew the electrical inputs.  Invariablly the naysayers are the lucky 
ones with south-facing windows though.  It's always easier when you're 
sitting on a goldmine of sunlight in a town with beautiful trees but 
concommittment shade, to be ethical on the electricity issue. 

Oh, were we still visualizing the ideallic PC homestead on 0.5 to 5.0 
acres?   

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas 

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