Subject: Roundup in Schools

From: "Rene and Lorraine van Raders" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:52:33 -0800

Hi all - we've  been busy teaching a course, with it's inevitable backlog
of work to wade through - hence our quiet.....

People often ask us if it's dangerous living in our open walled house here
in the tropics - well the other day it was - a possum knocked a glass jar
from the pantry and Rene came out at first light and didn't see it
(although we do remember the crash during the night now that we think about
it....).  He did a very good job of slicing up his foot and has only been
running on 5 cyclinders for the past week....but he's back to doing the
chores already  :)

We live in a dairy farming area (in Far North Queensland, Australia) and
have been getting very involved in our local school which includes gently
introducing the area to permaculture.  The roundup barrel was empty and
when asked for agreement on buying the next one, we've been the fly in the
ointment so to speak.  Most parents readily use roundup on their farms and
see no reason not to use it at the school.  When we gave them some reasons
for our hesitancy (i.e. residual effects, killing/depressing of non-target
species, threat to other species, possible harm to chemically sensitive
people) these didn't hit the mark.   The general consensus was "we've used
it on our farms for years, it's easy, and don't have any complaints about
it."   Roundup is used at the moment on all fencelines and garden edgings,
as well as in the playground sandpit....Apparently it has been applied
every six months but the general feeling of the group was that that wasn't
enough to stop the weeds, and one parent recommended on a fortnightly (or
at least monthly) basis.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY NEW OR PERSONAL INFORMATION ON ROUNDUP THAT MAY
INTEREST OUR PARENTS & CITIZENS COMMITTEE???  ANY INTERESTING FACTS AND
FIGURES?

They have been good enough to give us a three month trial without roundup
(during the peak growth time in the tropics)....We have our work cut out
for us, as cattle graze on most sides of the school boundaries, making
plant selection even more challenging!!! 

I should point out that we have the support of the headmaster - that counts
for something.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING ON THE NEW 'FROG-FRIENDLY' ROUNDUP?

Thanks for any insights you can share on this one.

Cheers
Lorraine 

Rene and Lorraine van Raders
The Green Piece Permaculture Garden
PO Box 389
Malanda, Beautiful Far North Queensland
4885 Australia
Int.  61 740 965138
Australia 07 40 965138
email  [email-masked]
"If enough people knock there heads against a brick wall it will fall
down."
Ashleigh Brilliant

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From: Marsha Hanzi <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:04:39 -0800

I would like to second the request.  Herbicides are just arriving in
Northeast Brazil, and  as they are not yet well-established,  there is
still time to make a "counter proposal"...

Marsha Hanzi
Instituto de Permacultura da Bahia

---

From: [email-masked] (Jeff Owens)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:54:39 -0800

Here are some old posts regarding Roundup that may have something
useful.

For good information on Roundup and court cases go to Pesticide Action
Network North America.  Web site
http://www.gks.com/library/pesticide/panna.html

Then go down to PESTIS Database and do a search for roundup.  ( Submit
query to PESTIS now) you will find things such as this:

Gopher Menu

    Score: 100  Pages:  18  Glyphosate, Part 1: Toxicology. Caroline
    Score:  64  Pages:  19  Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and 
    Score:  53  Pages:   2  SECOND ROUNDUP BEAUTIFICATION EFFORT,
    Score:  53  Pages:   2  Walter Epp is Wrong on Roundup. Thomas
    Score:  28  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Weeds Could Develop Resistance
    Score:  23  Pages:   2  PANUPS: Monsanto and Biotech Company
    Score:  23  Pages:   2  Monsanto and Biotech Company Join
    Score:  20  Pages:   2  Proposed Glyphosate Plant Could Become
    Score:  20  Pages:   4  Opposition Grows to Genetically
    Score:  20  Pages:  27  Federal Register, Volume 62, Number 70,
    Score:  17  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Australian Ryegrass Resists 
    Score:  17  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Monsanto Agrees to Change Ads
    Score:  15  Pages:   8  Farming In Good Taste. Mark Arax. Farmer
    Score:  15  Pages:   9  Lodi's Dynamic Duo Cuts Chemicals by
    Score:  15  Pages:   1  Substantial Reductions in Glyphosate.
    Score:  15  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Latin American Pesticide Market 
    Score:  15  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Opposition Grows to Genetically 
    Score:  15  Pages:   3  PANUPS: U.S. Court Rules Inert
    Score:  12  Pages:   2  More Pesticide Study Fraud? Global
    Score:  12  Pages:   1  Spraying Damages Crops in Brazil. 
    Score:  12  Pages:   3  South African Police Spray Paraquat In
    Score:  12  Pages:   9  Government Pesticide Policy in Nicaragua
    Score:  12  Pages:   4  Deadly Deceit: Secret Pesticide
    Score:  12  Pages:   3  Beyond Banning Paraquat. Angus Wright
    Score:  12  Pages:   2  Pesticide-Testing Lab Investigated for
    Score:  12  Pages:   1  Headlines, Michelle Thom,
    Score:  12  Pages:   2  Europeans Commercialize Genetically
    Score:  12  Pages:   3  Pesticides Cause Massive Bird Kills.
    Score:  12  Pages:   1  Monsanto Sued Over Herbicide Resistance
    Score:  12  Pages:   8  Biological Farming in Hilmar. Mark Arax.
    Score:  12  Pages:   7  Leafhoppers in Retreat at Savage Island
    Score:  12  Pages:   5  Organic Cotton Monitor, Volume 1, Number
    Score:  12  Pages:   2  PANUPS: EPA Approves Bromoxynil on
    Score:  12  Pages:   2  MORE GENETICALLY ENGINEERED CROPS
    Score:  12  Pages:   3  PANUPS: Worldwide Pesticide Sales
-- 

Ten reasons to "NOT" use roundup.

Compiled by Caroline Cox, Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to
Pesticides- (NCAP)

	Roundup, and related herbicides with glyphosate as an active
ingredient, are advertised as products that can "eradicate weeds and
unwanted grasses effectively with a high level of environmental safety."
However, an independent, accurate evaluation of their health and
environmental hazards can draw conclusions very different from those
presented in the ads.  Consider these facts:

1.    Glyphosate can be persistent.  In tests conducted by Monsanto,
manufacturer of
glyphosate-containing herbicides, up to 140 days were required for half
of the applied glyphosate to break down or disappear from agricultural
soils.  At harvest, residues of glyphosate were found in lettuce,
carrots, and barley planted one year after glyphosate treatment.
2.     Glyphosate can drift.  Test conducted by the University of
California, Davis, found that glyphosate drifted up to 400 meters (1300
feet) during ground applications and 800 meters 12600 feet) during
aerial applications.
3.     Glyphosate is acutely toxic to humans.  Ingesting about 3/4 of a
cup can be lethal.  Symptoms include eye and skin irritation, lung
congestion, and erosion of the intestinal tract.  Between 1984 and 1990
in California, glyphosate was the third most frequently reported cause
of illness elated to agricultural pesticide use.

4.     Glyphosate has shown a wide spectrum of chronic toxicity in
laboratory tests.  The National Toxicology Program found that chronic
feeding of glyphosate caused salivary gland lesions, reduced sperm
counts, and a lengthened estrous cycle (how often an individual comes
into heat).  Other chronic effects found in laboratory tests include an
increase in the frequency of lethal mutations in fruit flies, an
increase in frequency of pancreas and liver tumors in male rats along
with an increase in the frequency of thyroid tumors in females, and
cataracts. (ne fruit fly study used Roundup; the other studies used
glyphosate.)

5.     Roundup contains toxic trade secret ingredients.  These include
polyethoxylated tallowamines, causing nausea and diarrhea, and
isopropylamine, causing chemical pneumonia, laryngitis, headache, and
bums.

6.     Roundup kills beneficial insects.  Tests conducted by !he
International Organization for Biological Control showed that Roundup
caused mortality of live beneficial species: a Thrichgramma, a predatory
mite, a lacewing, a ladybug, and a predatory beetle.

7.     Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand's
most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as 1/20
of standard application rates, reduced it- growth and slowed its
development.

8.     Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi.  Canadian studies have shown
that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth or
colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.

9.     Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation.  Amounts as small as 2
parts per million have had significant effects, and effects have been
measured up to 120 days after treatment.  Nitrogen- fixing bacteria
shown to be impacted by glyphosate include a species found on soybeans
and several species found on clover.

10.     Roundup can increase the spread or seventy of plant diseases. 
Treatment with roundup  increased the severity of Rhizoctonia root rot
in barley, increased the amount and growth of take-all fungus, a wheat
disease), and reduced the ability of bean plants to defend themselves
against anthracnose.

	These facts about Roundup are taken From a two-part article about the
health and environmental hazards of glyphosate published in NCAP's
Journal of Pesticide Reform.  Copies of the article, with complete
references for all of .the information presented, are available from
NCAP for $2.00. NCAP,  PO Box 1391; Eugene, OR 97440; (541) 344-5044.

  ------------------------------------------
A farmer responds to the above list.
> 
> Support organic farmers!!!!
> 
> Ten reasons to "NOT" use roundup.
> 
> Compiled by Caroline Cox, Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to
> Pesticides- (NCAP)
> 

Sorry John but its time for a little balanced scientific reasoning (of
which you appear to have very little).
<snip>
> 
> 1.    Glyphosate can be persistent.  

You quote residues....parts per million or billion are harmless. 

> 2.     Glyphosate can drift.  

Again...but in what concentration?

> 3.     Glyphosate is acutely toxic to humans.  Ingesting about 3/4 of a
> cup can be lethal. 

So is 3/4 cup of table salt but should we ban it too?
 
> 4.     Glyphosate has shown a wide spectrum of chronic toxicity in
> laboratory tests.  

again....out of context and irrelevant
> 
> 5.     Roundup contains toxic trade secret ingredients.  

The dose makes the poison...see above
> 
> 6.     Roundup kills beneficial insects.  

Don't confuse lab tests with field studies...lab tests are notoriously
impractical.

<snip>

I have no experience with your other points, thus am unqualified to
comment.  However, I would like to point out that glyphosate will
probably  go down in history as  modern farming's safest and most
effective single product.  End of story.  Why do you people have such a
problem with organic chemicals, but will happily use seaweed extract etc
which is usually untested and occasionally full of arsenic, selenium
etc?

---

From: Avalon Bruce <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:31:03 -0800

well, if Roundup contributes to leukemia in dogs, what about in cats?  i
KNOW
that feline leukemia is on the increase!
[email-masked]
-- 
The Earth is not given to us by our parents.
It is loaned to us by our children.

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:28:02 -0500 (EST)

http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london   InterGarden   
[email-masked]   [email-masked]

On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jeff Owens wrote:

> Then go down to PESTIS Database and do a search for roundup.

See also:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/pesticide-education/faqs/roundup.faq

---

From: Marsha Hanzi <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:04:39 -0800

Marsha Hanzi

---

From: [email-masked] (Jeff Owens)
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:54:39 -0800

Gopher Menu

 

<snip>

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From: Avalon Bruce <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:31:03 -0800

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:28:02 -0500 (EST)

See also: