Subject: Naturally Occurring Carcinogens

From: [email-masked] (David de Vries)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:39:58 +1100

Dear All

Looking at the recent archives, I was interested in the natural carcinogen
thread.  I can lay some claims to expertise on this subject in a previous
life, including working at the National Cancer Institute in the US and pubs
like-

Blumberg, P.M., Pettit, G.R., Warren, B.S., Szallasi, A., Schuman, L.D.,
Sharkey, N.A., Nakakuma, H., Dell'Aquila, M.L. and de Vries, D.J.  The
protein kinase C pathway in tumor promotion.  In Skin Carcinogenesis:
Mechanisms and Human Relevance.  New York, Alan R. Liss (1989) 201-212.

de Vries, D.J., Herald, C.L., Pettit, G.R. and Blumberg, P.M. Demonstration
of sub-nanomolar affinity of bryostatin 1 for the phorbol ester receptor in
rat brain.  Biochemical  Pharmacology  37:4069-4073 (1988).

de Vries, D.J., McCauley, R. and Walker, F. Identification of acutely
active compounds within extracts of marine organisms using the EGF binding
site of human A431 cells. Toxicon  32:553-559 (1994).

The phorbols above are the active, irritant component of the Euphorbiaceae
and are v. potent tumor promoters.  I have always been sceptical of their
use in Pc e.g. living fences.

Dan Hemenway stated:
"Maybe a useful outcome of this discussion, if there is to be one, would be to
list known species (ege poke weed) and conditions (e.g. granite bedrock) that
create significant carcinogens.  I think we can readily get lists of known
plant and animal toxins and that this would be an excercise in reguritation
not worth the electrons.  A bibliography on plant toxins would be more
useful."

I am not sure a list or bibl. would be much use. In some agreement with
Ames, I generalise "everything causes cancer in the lab".  Curiously,
another  generalisation also applies "all life forms contain
anti-carcinogens".  A bibliography of the large number of plants and
animals that have been tested (and found positive) for carcinogens would be
a bit overwhelming.  Sorting through to identify the real environmental
threats (synthetic or organic) is the trick. The simplest course of action
is to apply a diversity approach to your lifestyle i.e. don't sit in the
same building breathing the same air and eating the same food grown and
prepared in the same manner.

To expand the discussion further, I recall the strongest epidemiological
evidence points to methods of food preparation being the most significant
causes of cancer esp. some pickling, BBQing and smoking techniques.

To expand further.. In Australia, my observation is that the incidence of
smoking tobacco (+commercial additives) amongst permies is higher than the
general population.  This, plus their penchant for sitting around
camp-fires is a bit suicidal...
The least they could do is vary the plant smoke they inhale!

Apologies for a long, wandering first post!

David

---

From: YankeePerm <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:15:43 EST

In a message dated 12/31/97 2:40:04 AM, [email-masked] wrote:

<<To expand the discussion further, I recall the strongest epidemiological
evidence points to methods of food preparation being the most significant
causes of cancer esp. some pickling, BBQing and smoking techniques.

David>>

Nice post, David.  Well, I agree that many plants may not make much
difference.  However there is also the fact that the more kinds of carcinogens
you ingest, the more you amplify the possibility of the correct mutation
pathway (to create a cancer) being achieved.  I try not to touch poke on the
advice of someone who researched it, whereas I minimize use of comfrey, rather
than totally avoid it.  Plants such as Sasafras can be avoided with not much
of a loss so why not.  On the other hand I've not heard carcinogenic claims
against dandilion, stellaria (chick weed), or such.   One can use information
plus intelligence in getting a diet that rational.  Diversity of course has
its merits, but in permaculture we are looking, I heard, for FUNCTIONAL
DIVERSITY.  So we don't include known carcinogens unless there is a functional
reason, eat everything in sight that is ok so far as we can tell, and hope to
get more anti-carcinogens than carcinogens, again functionall, by the process.

Well, with one of my three children (grown) still smoking, I have a hard time
being tough on smokers for satisfying their addiction.  (I still do not allow
smoking on my place, anywhere, and make people walk to the public road.)  The
permies that smoke tend to smoke two species, actually, and I'm not taking any
bets as to which is worse.  As you suggest, it could depend on additiives.  I
know some (permacutlure!) people who used to, at least, harvest tobacco in
Kentucky, USA, as cash income at the harvest season.  There was damn little
cash income to be had.  It was sprayed previously with something that turned
it yellow so it would cure faster.  Pickers got abcesses on thier skin, inside
their mouths, and in other recesses, and the most susceptable had to give it
up after earning as much as they could.  (Aint money grand!)  After curing,
then the additives come.  I've since STRONGLY recommended to people who can't
or don't want to shed the tobacco habit that at least they grow their own.
Organic would be nice, but even unsprayed with chemical fertilizer would be a
vast improvement.  They still can't carry their makin's onto my place--carries
too many plant diseases!

I'm not so sure about other smoking plants being better.  I'd say opium is a
definite mistake for most people (thinking of folks with terminal diseases
causing great pain as exceptions).  I'm not even sure about mullein and
coltsfoot having net positive benefit, though I could believe that a low
combustion temperature could release volatiles that might have temporary
benefits while the ring compounds work to engender cancer.  However you could
smoke those outdoors at least 50 feet from the house at my place, except in
dry weather.

Years ago, responding to both nitrate and smoke content in processed items
such as bacon, I switched to salt-cured bacon and uncured sausage (kept in the
freezer) as safer.  But then I don't have many anti-cancer credits left,
having had a landscape gardening business as a teenager (in the 1950s) and
sprayed with no protection everything recommended by the Cooperative Extension
Service.  Yum.  Well I've made it to 58, including some starvation periods
when I lost much of the tissue in which that crap might be stored, so maybe I
lucked out.  Of course the starvation made me old before my time, but hey!...

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982),
Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  One is now underway.  Next Live program:  Paraguay,
8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway,
P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html