Subject: Wasp statistics

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:24:19 -0400 (EDT)

This isn't necessarily permaculture related but it is so beautifully
written I thought I'd share it with you all.  LL.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 26 Sep 1997 23:12:54 -0400
From: Jack Dingler <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Wasp statistics and Re: generalizations

I've only recently discovered this newsgroup.  It was suggested on
rec.gardens.edibles as an organic ng.  After reading a weeks worth of
articles from it, I don't think so.  I have also seen very little
reference to ecosystems.  I am interested in both of these topics and
was hoping for some new information.

Like Mr. Hulet, I've seen many requests and responses for information on
quick fixes.  Though this isn't counter to organic gardening, it does
tend to sidetrack the ecosystem side a bit.  In my limited understanding
of ecosystems, checks and balances are paramount to a healthy
ecosystem.  By using a quick fix, these balances are distorted and the
system can be expected to take some time to recover to a new balance. 
This new balance may or may not have desirable consequences.

I had hoped that this ng would address the issues as they relate to
gardening, so far I haven't seen much that relates to this.  Certainly
these quick fixes, like using pesticides and radical changes in soil
chemistry, have little to do with establishing a garden with a healthy
ecosystem.

Most of what I used to know about gardening, I learned from my
grandfather.  He always had a few acres planted somewhere and gave away
countless bushels of produce to everyone he knew.  From him I learned
the proper proportions of high strength fertilizers to use.  I learned
to cover everything but the flowers with chlordane dust.  I learned to
diagnose plant illness.  I learned to kill everything near the garden
that moved under it's own power, except his bees of course.

Two decades later, I'm learning a different approach.  I've gardened for
two years now in small plots around my house.  I've used no artificial
fertilizers and no pesticides.  I've lost crops and learned lessons.  As
my gardens have grown and my perennials have begun to flourish, I've
noticed changes in my local ecosystem.  There is a balance coming into
play.  As a result, I have more insects and arachnids in my yard than
I've seen anywhere in the city.  I'm also getting more out of my
gardens.  I'm getting bigger and better vegetables and more of them.  I
lose some vegetables but gardeners who believe in pesticides do to. 
What has surprised me, is that my losses are small and short term, while
pesticide approach tends to incur larger losses more often.  I don't
believe this is an accident.  I believe anyone can have similar
results.  But our phobias of bugs tend to get in the way.

I'm running out of time to write this post so there isn't much more
rambling room, so I'd like to spawn an ecosystem discussion. :)

Anyone have any good data on the number of paper wasps needed to keep an
area essentially caterpillar free?  I have three large nests with two
species near my yard.  With a total of approximately 50 wasps.  Since
the nests became well established, I have not seen but a few
caterpillars and the damage to my lettuce and cabbage has been
negligible.  I am also interested in information on how I might increase
their numbers earlier in the season so that my spring losses are
smaller.

Thanks in advance...

-- 
*    Jack Dingler     * Zone 8
* [email-masked] * 
*    Probably not     * 
*    your opinion     *

---

From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:59:46 +1000

In permaculture we look for several elements to meet the needs of another,
we would design to use more than just one species of wasp.  And indeed more
than just wasps.
We would consider several approaches (bacillus, attracting small birds to
eat the caterpillars,
planting distractants for the caterpillars and then simply feeding the lot
to our chickens - the distractant plants
we use here are mono cropped cabbage in the open as opposed to camouflaged
cabbages with insect repellent plants 
around them.  I also keep some weeds that they adore and some weeds that
the predatory insects adore. 
In permaculture we also recognise that elements work at least two ways, you
are
controlling caterpillars  but what is controlling the wasp?  Do your wasps
also kill
bees that are essential pollinators for many human-food plants.

we try to seek more than one solution and even though it may appear a quick
fix, we never
forget the power of observation, we watch that quick fix to monitor the
long term effects,
the new balance, as you mentioned.

For building up the wasps, observe their habitat and habits, what are they
drinking, what do they
like to grow on etc.  They may even be territorial (?)

you wrote: I've seen many requests and responses for information on
> tend to sidetrack the ecosystem side a bit. 

When we are aiming to work with the nature of things and not against them
(another principle of permacultre)
then we have to recognise that the nature of human beings is to cry for
help, to seek quick fix solutions 
from our peers, this keeps us talking to each other.  and the mailing list
would die if it weren't for daily problems,
Yes, we all recognise the big picture - but there is much credit to those
who are struggling with little pieces.  
Every little effort counts.  
I am grateful not to have to learn all the little things myself.  I am
grateful for the shower of 
tiny pieces of information that fall my way which  sometimes turn out to be
vital piece in a giant jigsaw.

April Sampson-Kelly  [email-masked]
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make this world a better place

----------
> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Wasp statistics
> Date: Saturday, September 27, 1997 2:24 PM
>