Subject: Re: Growth of Pc

From: YankeePerm <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:24:26 EST

I don't think that playing numbers games and thinking success/failure is the
way to go.  Of course we have to look at what works and what doesn't work.
Quickie mass courses don't turn out qualified people, in my view.  There are a
number of designs for short programs, not for certification, that suit people
who just want to design for themselves.  We need longer, more customized,
courses for people who will teach others.  Professional designers, well we
don't need many designers at all or we have failed.  Only when everyone can
design for him/her self have we taken permaculture as far as it can go.  

Manwhile it is more important to do our best than to think we understand if we
have succeeded or failed.  The only real failure is failing to do our best.
If the world goes down the tubes anyway, well that is the final lesson in
humility.  We REALLY are not in charge, except that we have the power and
responsibility to use our personal gifts as effectively and appropriately and
consistently as possible.

Who knows who is teaching out there and how?  How many of my 30 extension
agent students from the Philippines are teaching permaculture.  One, maybe.
Twenty, as likely.  Even people I think won't do anything with the material
surprise me by suddently blooming forth, a decade or more after the course.
Nothing done as well as we can from our deepest convictions is done wrong.

As far as Bill's mass permaculture baptism experience in California is
concerned, well it is done.  It isn't anything that should be repeated, but
we've got to live with the results, and we'll find out over the next few years
what the more conspicuous results are.  Personally, I'm glad it was California
and not Florida.  

What permaculture needs, in my opinion, is not better numbers but better
teaching.  This goes for Bill as much as anyone.  We need longer programs
where people have more shared experience, longer times to integrate new
experiences, longer times to form questions and protestations and extend
discussions, and longer times to do at least one really good design as part of
the certification process.  We also require our students to practice
explaining permaculture a few times during the course and then we discuss how
it when, techniques, etc.

In general, I'd like to see someone organize a program some of us with long-
term and diverse experience to come and teach--a workshop or series of
workshops for teachers.  And I'd like to see everyone in permaculture, form
Bill on down, take the spirit of the non-competition ethic a little more
seriously.  This includes cutting back, at least, on the behind the scenes
backbiting that is in fact an aspect of competition in this movement.  While I
have come to learn not to be surprised that we bring the flawed behaviors from
the mainstream society into permaculature, I think it is very useful to
identify these behaviors and start to eliminate them from our own behaviors.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982),
Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  One is now underway.  Next Live program:  Paraguay,
8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway,
P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html

---

From: Geoff King <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:47:13 -0600

> http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html

Sirs,
	If growth of pc is a goal, why not put a pc course on the internet or
web, so people located throughout the world, dealing with their own
environments, markets, economies, strengths, and social situations,
could learn and impliment the principles... isn't implimentation of pc
more important than charging money, and setting up hierarchies for the
transfer of such knowledge and principles?  I have been on this
listserve, and am operating in a situation that surely could benefit
from such principles, but cannot afford to travel, or pay to learn; yet
what I learn and impliment, and share with others in the local
community, could further the goals of pc, moreso than the positioning of
titles or accredations next to my name, and the econmomic and
environmental benefits of implimenting such knowledge should be my
reward for pursuing and learning pc, not my expectation of financial
gain by charging others for such wisdom.  Granted information and the
dissemination of info has value, but with technologies available like
this, and the imminent problems we as a global community face without
implimentation of pc, isn't it a small upfront investment to be made by
the pc community that presently exists?  Further,  isn't it reasonable
to expect that the pc movement would see significant return to that
investment as the feedback from new practitioners validates or refines
certain practices or principles, so as to increase the underlying value
of its theories and concepts?

---

From: Michael Yount <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:07:50 -0700

I concur with Geoff.  A related question is how to share 
permacultural knowledge in a way that's accessible to anyone
who might be sympathetic, but who can't reasonably assimilate
the whole cultural attitude.

This group in Colorado with whom I work specializes in electronic
mailing lists on "progressive" subjects.  I maintain a WWW archive
of a list called frugal-ed, which includes discussions of garage
sales, "once a month cooking," and getting out of debt.  Occasionally,
some messages on sustainability or environmental politics appear,
to which a few people have responded, "we don't participate in these
discussions to have our lifestyles judged."  How could I (or those
of you more knowledgeable) address these folks' questions without
overwhelming them?

As an advocate of "free" software, I have to exercise the same 
caution in promoting a culture which has clear parallels with
what you all have taught me about permaculture.  Software
engineering folks have popularized "design patterns," based on
the work of architect Christopher Alexander.  The hundreds of
people who have contributed to the linux operating system
as volunteers is a marvel.  Some people like the design problems;
others like defying <Well-Known Software Company>.  All right,
now if I said to you, "you needn't ever pay another penny to <W-K S C>
or its competitors again.  Free alternatives exist.  You'll be
wiser and happier in the long run, and you'll have a chance to
contribute your ideas to the common pool of computer knowledge.
My more knowledgeable colleagues will walk you through the transition.
There's one hitch, though...it will take months, maybe years
before you achieve even basic competence,"  would you jump?
Who except devotees would choose this path?

Thanks,

Michael
[email-masked]

 :}
 :}Sirs,
 :}	If growth of pc is a goal, why not put a pc course on the internet or
 :}web, so people located throughout the world, dealing with their own
 :}environments, markets, economies, strengths, and social situations,
 :}could learn and impliment the principles... isn't implimentation of pc
 :}more important than charging money, and setting up hierarchies for the
 :}transfer of such knowledge and principles?  I have been on this
 :}listserve, and am operating in a situation that surely could benefit
 :}from such principles, but cannot afford to travel, or pay to learn; yet
 :}what I learn and impliment, and share with others in the local
 :}community, could further the goals of pc, moreso than the positioning of
 :}titles or accredations next to my name, and the econmomic and
 :}environmental benefits of implimenting such knowledge should be my
 :}reward for pursuing and learning pc, not my expectation of financial
 :}gain by charging others for such wisdom.  Granted information and the
 :}dissemination of info has value, but with technologies available like
 :}this, and the imminent problems we as a global community face without
 :}implimentation of pc, isn't it a small upfront investment to be made by
 :}the pc community that presently exists?  Further,  isn't it reasonable
 :}to expect that the pc movement would see significant return to that
 :}investment as the feedback from new practitioners validates or refines
 :}certain practices or principles, so as to increase the underlying value
 :}of its theories and concepts?
 :}

---

From: Geoff King <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:47:13 -0600

Sirs,

---

From: Michael Yount <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:07:50 -0700

Thanks,

Michael
[email-masked]

 :}
 :}Sirs,