Subject: Re: Let's continue a global directory on-line...

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:28:42 EDT

In a message dated 7/27/99 10:53:59 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<<A directory, once printed, is  already out of date , so  an online 
directory makes more
sense..  I can  understand that maybe they don't want the extra work without 
some sort
of remuneration-- maybe the directory will have to be made somewhere else by 
someone
else...  That seems pretty much a job  in itself...
Marsha
Bahia, Brazil>>

Marsha:
    In my opinion, it is unethical for anyone to start another global 
permaculture directory without the approval of IPJ.  There is a really strong 
ethic in permaculture that we do not undercut one another and do not compete 
with one another or duplicate one another's work.   
    Furthermore, we have already been told that any online listing undercuts 
the printed product.  Therefore, people without online access, which is the 
vast majority of world population, may not get  access to ANY directory.   It 
is an obvious fact of publishing that you need a certain base level of demand 
to bother with the work and cost of producing a printed document.   
    I once heard Bill extoll the wisdom of letting the person who has taken 
on the job make the critical decisions.   I felt that it was a good policy 
then; and I feel it is a good policy in this case.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, 
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence 
courses via email.  Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, 
Sparr FL 32192 USA  Internships. [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at 
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers 
assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html

---
You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to [email-masked]

---

From: Marsha Hanzi <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:49:25 -0300

I don't think there is a real conflict here.  I understood that the IPJ is not doing
the on-line  directory probably because that is a lot of unpaid work, which is
understandable. There is certainly an argument for a printed directory for those who
have no e-mail access, which is rapidly becomeing fewer and fewer, even  here in
Brazil.  But a printed directory does not make much sense to those who DO have e-mail
access,  as, as I pointed out, they soon become outdated  .  And I agree totally with
you -- they are very expensive and time-consuming to put out, and the people who go to
the trouble have great difficulty even getting back what they put into it,  much less
earn money from it.
    And I also agree  both with you, Dan ( people should be justly paid for their
efforts by others who can do so)  and April ( that there is no danger of reducing
abundance by sharing when we can, that  we create a flow which eventually returns to
us).
    I understand that Bill meant with
"sharing" that  we would not hoard. I understand that this would mean  confidence in
the flow, but still giving each one of us  the right to be paid when that is important,
and to possess what we feel necessary for our life.But I also understand that it means
to not withhold information. Thats how I understand and apply this principle. To say
that we cannot have an on-line directory because it will be printed somewhere I
consider to be withholding information, and unethical...But I understand and hope you
are not actually saying this.
    I am not proposing to undercut the people at the journal-- I am just proposing that
continuing an on-line global directory in an organized way somewhere, since they no
longer care to do it, is a most useful tool for all of us...It makes no sense to have
to order a book, wait a month -- or three in my case-- besides all the work and expense
that that entails for all of us, for something we could have immediately on line ( an
address, a contact).

Marsha

> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:44:39 EDT

In a message dated 7/27/99 3:10:05 PM, [email-masked] writes:

<<I don't think there is a real conflict here.  I understood that the IPJ is 
not doing
the on-line  directory probably because that is a lot of unpaid work, which is
understandable. There is certainly an argument for a printed directory for 
those who
have no e-mail access, which is rapidly becomeing fewer and fewer, even  here 
in
Brazil.  But a printed directory does not make much sense to those who DO 
have e-mail
access,  as, as I pointed out, they soon become outdated  .  And I agree 
totally with
you -- they are very expensive and time-consuming to put out, and the people 
who go to
the trouble have great difficulty even getting back what they put into it,  
much less
earn money from it.>>

Marsha:
	First, you missed my main point.   It is up to IPJ, who started this, 
not you or I or April, to decide whether they want to continue it or if 
another format works better.

	Second, obviously the feel that the print sales they will lose from 
having a web page will undercut the practically of putting out the print 
edition.   So either someone pirates their work, which is so-called 
permaculturists stealing from real permaculurists, or they duplicate their 
work, which is a violation of permaculture ethics.   I am sure that if people 
want a web page badly enough to pay a royalty to IPJ every time it is used, 
the problem is solved.  I strongly suspect that we have yet another case of 
people trying to dispose of resources they didn't create and aren't willing 
to pay for themselves.   

	Frankly, if we can't get someone from IPJ in on this conversation,  I 
can see where it can produce any ethical results.   We need to know what they 
think about the matter.   And unless we have helped pay for their costs and 
labor, we have no right to any expectations whatsover about how they handle 
their resources.  

	I see this problem over and over again in the "permaculture' 
movement.  People do a great deal of work to create a resource and put it 
out.  It gets ripped off or they decide they can't afford to offer it without 
more compensation.   So they chane how it is available.   Instead of being 
grateful that it was EVER available, people get pissed off because the free 
lunch is over.   If Marsha or April or Dan have resources in excess of need, 
it is our responsibility to decide that they are surplus and to dispose of 
them.   It only our responsibility, no one elses.  Robin Hood is not a 
permaculture concept.   If IPJ has created a resource, it is their and only 
their responsibility to decide how it should be available and under what 
terms.

	Frankly, the difference between an annually updated print directory 
and a randomly updated web page is pretty small.   As one who moved about 
quite a bit for a number of years, it is my problem that people  lost track 
of me and therefore didn't buy my publications.   they don't have a RIGHT to 
know where I am and I don't have a RIGHT for someone else to tell them.   I'd 
RATHER have a print directory that I pay a fair price for than a web site.  
It is a pain in the ass to use web sites and either I have to turn on my 
computer and wait until it fires up or else interrupt what I am doing on the 
computer.  (Obviously, if it is on, I am using it for something else.)  That 
is way more disruptive to my work that reaching over and taking a directory 
from a bookshelf.   

If the ethical argument doesn't work for you, consider that you may kill the 
goose that lays the golden eggs.   If you undercut the IPJ by publishing 
their work on the web, they may well say screw it and then no one will be 
gathering that sort of information systematically.   that is about their 
least reactive option.   Rather than make enemies of them, why not find out 
what they want todo?

---

---

From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Jul 1999 02:13:44 +0200

[email-masked] writes:

> the printed product.

Are you crazy? You say permaculture-ethics mean, that all of us should
help the IPJ-directory to be sold in printed version, while we provide
them with the information? And that if we make our own listings that
would undercut their efforts? If that would be the case, there only
should be one pc-book, and we can call it the pc.bible , maybe it
would be "a designers manual" ?

>  Therefore, people without online access, which is the 

What do we bother about the income of the IPJ? Do they bother about my
income or expense? I  tell you what: If the pay my expenses, we can
talk about it....

> then; and I feel it is a good policy in this case.

It is (in my eyes) en effort against nature, if we try to let only a
view people earn money with a common good. 

I totally disagree with your statement. Sorry.

Vinci.

-- 
Thilo Pfennig 
<http://Alternativ.Net/>

---

---

From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Jul 1999 02:32:48 +0200

[email-masked] writes:

> lunch is over. 

It is a little difference if you hust put out a catalog of ressources
or addresses, which you get form the whole world - and the only thing
you do is make the layout and sort alphabetically - or if you really
invent something new - and you feel you want to get something for it.

> If IPJ has created a resource, it is their and only 

The right is on their side if we talk about the thing, the layout and
the concept. On the other hand you can buy many different catalogs or
phonebooks or addressbooks about thousands of subjects. What you are
talking about is a monopole, not the freedom of information or the
right to earn money from your own ideas.

I also see the idea of you, that it should be the task of
permaculturist to help other permaculturists to get money out of
pc-stuff. I don´t think so. I know this kind of attitude from some of
the more political-left part of society who "feed" their media, even
if they don´t like them.

If the IPJ wants to get money out of theier catalog, they must do it
on their own and hope, people will agree with their concept. I do not
see the space for a philosophic discussion about that topic. And
honestly, I do not see your point. What is it you really want?

>  I'd 
> computer.

This is your personal decision. But that doesn´t help others to
decide, or what should I do with your preferences? I do prefer
online-databases, so what? Should I tell people that they must not
work woth printed copies? 

> Rather than make enemies of them, why not find out 
> what they want todo?

Why is that important? I understand it may be helpful to organize
(especially with neighbours) and to exchange data. But I do dont
understand, why others should wait or listen to IPJ, what they
WANT. Everybody wants something different.
 
I also made my experience in Germany with what people think,
permaculture should be, or how institutes should control the flow of
information - or how all should be done. I have come to the
conclusion, that I do have more a problem with organizations who want
to present permaculture, as with people who just want to contribute

Bye,

vinci

-- 
Thilo Pfennig 
<http://Alternativ.Net/>

---

---

From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:27:22 -0700

Aloha,

There's a familiar pattern in this whole directory dispute...leave a bare
patch of soil unmulched and untended for too long, whether intentionally or
not, and something *will* grow there, fill the niche...it may be invasive
and start to take over, or it may be cooperative and symbiotic with what's
already there.  But does one blame the plant for growing there?  Or does one
observe the process and learn from it?

John Schinnerer

---

---

From: EFMonaco <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:01:03 -0400

Maybe the answer is to have those that want to be listed in the 'Directory'
pay a fee for being listed, much the same way as the Yellow Pages work in
the USA.
Gene Monaco

on their own and hope, people will agree with their concept. I do not
see the space for a philosophic discussion about that topic. And
honestly, I do not see your point. What is it you really want?<

---

---

From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:10:37 -0700

Aloha,

On further observation, there's also a lack of systemic efficiency and
function stacking here.  Ideally the laborious input work of collecting,
maintaining and frequently updating a useful global permaculture directory
database (if there is such a thing, and if it's appropriate) would serve
multiple and sometimes overlapping output functions (print, online, carrier
pigeon (also a food and fertilizer source), etc.).  If we end up with
several different groups and individuals semi-duplicating each other's
efforts, maybe we need to call in an outside consultant to help with this
issue (a permaculture designer or something like that... ;-).  Or we could
find ways to cooperate...is cooperation a permaculture ethic?

John Schinnerer

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:34:50 -0400

unsubscribe David Kibbe

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schinnerer [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 3:11 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: RE: Let's continue a global directory on-line...

Aloha,

John Schinnerer

---
You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
[email-masked]

---

From: "Sal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:04:45 -0700

http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/yankee_intro.html#terrible

----- Original Message -----
From: EFMonaco <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: Let's continue a global directory on-line...

>As I see it your statements above are a highly accurate snapshot of your
mindset. You probably need to go somewhere and take a refresher course in
permaculture.<

Now, now, boys, let's keep this civil.  We're all on the same side here,
aren't we?
Gene Monaco

---
You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
[email-masked]

---

---

From: Thilo Pfennig <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Jul 1999 23:26:51 +0200

Scott Pittman <[email-masked]> writes:

> I have to go along with Dan on this one.  I have personally been involved
> with many of the founders, editors, writers, and volunteers of IPJ and found
> all of them to be extremely devoted to producing a good magazine in an
> ethical manner. 

Sorry, but I don´t know what the ethical manner of the people of IPJ
has to do with this subject? Are you saying that people like Lawrence
are unethical and that he is trying to do a bad work? Or are you
talking about me?

> I find it extremely distastful that they have not been consulted or
> invited into this brouhaha. 

Why? Isn´t this list open to everyone? Are you saying that the IPJ,
who themselves claim to do a good work in bringing out addresses of
permaculture are not using the most important permaculture
mailinglist? How are they able to do their job without that? I´d say
they cannot. I realized: they have email, they HAD a website. And I am
shure they *knew* about the lists. 

> Lots of luck in trying to do it on your own, as far as I know only the IPJ
> and the International Permaculture Institute have maintained and encouraged
> continuing international contacts and without those you would have a very
> pallid list indeed. 

Without that... I think it is clearly a result of the international
contacts. Why encourage contacts and than, when they seeds are
growing, say that they should NOT grow?

Why shouldn´t they? Is this like a mission of the catholic church:
Spread my message, but give credit to the pope? God is great, but
nothing without your pastor?

If the worldwide permaculture community has come to the point where it
does not need the service and encouragement of the years before, I
think this should be more a reason of celebration than of blaming the
results. If that movement is wrong, the whole idea of interconnecting
permaculturist must have been wrong.

On the other hand it just looks like we have an information-monopole here?

> We are talking about bother and sister in the struggle for a liveable and
> just planet here, they are us!

What do you mean?

-- 
Thilo Pfennig 
<http://Alternativ.Net/>

---

---

From: Skye <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:02:20 -0600

Hola a todos

A long time ago, in Permacultures' once-upon-a-time time, the global
directory was the task of the Institute (there was only one, back
then!!). At one of the national conferences (Yarrahappenin, I think)
Marlyn Wade (the then secretary for the Institute) announced that they
no longer had the resources, mainly people and time, to maintain this
task. Recall that this was back when access to internet meant you had to
be very fluent in MS-DOS. The IPJ people at that conference obviously
felt that this was an important service to the newly developing PC
community, and so offered to continue the service. My impression at that
time, was that it was not seen to be a financially rewarding operation,
but rather an essential service that someone should undertake.

So much for history. Obviously we need to contact the IPJ people (if
that is possible prior to 2000) and see what they think about all this.
I suspect that the operation is still one of service, that the charges
for the hard-copy is really only a way to partially off-set the incurred
expenses, rather than a lucrative operation. I suspect they may welcome
the opportunity to off-load the task to someone else. Obviously that
part is conjecture, so, again we need to contact/communicate with them.

I personally feel an on-line service would be far more useful to me than
the hard-copy (and I can get one easily when return to Aust late each
year - unlike most of you). The inefficiency of mail here in Mexico
means a great deal of my communication is via internet - so its easier
for me to have a copy of the directory in my computer. I am also rarely
at my home office, so again I'd rather carry a copy of the directory on
the hard disk of my laptop, than have to carry yet more paper in my
backpack.

We also need to have a more up-to-date, reliable version. When I first
came to Mexico I checked the directory for Mexican contacts. With the
hindsight of experience I now know that most of the entries for Mexico
either ceased to exist years ago, have moved (so the data is useless) or
never existed in the first place. At least three times in the last three
years I have emailed the IPJ with the latest information (from my
experience), to date none of those changes have appeared in the
directory. So, for those who want to visit/communicate with Mexican PC
groups, forget the directory - its worse than useless.

In saying that, I am not being critical of the IPJ. I am only saying
that it is a task, which they took on as a service and which I believe
is a pain in the ..... to them. And therefore does not have high
priority. 

In fact, the fact that they are off-line and hard to contact worries me
for reasons more important than the directory. I know they have been
struggling a little finacially in recent years, so I hope their current
lack of communication does not indicate something more serious than just
overworked and underpaid staff. Going back to the days of Terry White,
the IPJ was about the only way for us to maintain some form of contact
and exchange of information. And, even in these days of instant internet
information,  I still eargerly look forward to each new edition (even if
it is three months in getting to me). It has always been a valuable
service and a high quality production, I hope it survives as long as
Permaculture does.

Back to the discussion at hand. With their permission/blessing/support I
would like to see an on-line version (which any of us can print out and
give to those without internet - and there are still many) which is
organised on a distributed, self-maintaining basis. A number of nodes
around the place (Marsha, April, Dan, me, IPJ...) hold a current copy in
their websites, as mirror sites. Through the IPJ, our own WEB pages,
national conferences, this listservor ...we let everyone know that it is
their responsibility to contact one of those nodes, with the current
information, if they want to be included. The node contacted, adds the
data to their copy and then emails the new version to the other mirror
sites.

We could get all heated up in a discussion about how do we control the
information, make sure it is correct etc. Personally, I'm into "out of
control" - thats how large integrated and interacting systems evolve and
grow (take ecology as an example). You want to be listed, you send the
right information. If an address ceases to exist - one of us will know
sooner or later (and in the meantime we are only wasting a kilobyte or
so in a few computers).

Thats my contibution.

Thanks for listening
Skye          
-- 
Skye - Apdo # 391,  Patzcuaro, Michoacan, CP. 61600 México. 
fax  (52) 01 (434) 24743
Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura
Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C.
Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y 
economía comunitaria.

---

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:16:39 EDT

In a message dated 7/30/99 1:56:20 PM, [email-masked] writes:

<<There is no hope that we can get this done in the next five years if
we keep it to ourselves. Therefore I have come here to break the monopoly of
the elite alternative in America. We have got to let experts loose on the
ground. We need hundreds and hundreds of them. We don't want at any time to
patent anything or to keep any information to ourselves, not even keep our
jobs to ourselves.>>

Not sure if Sal wrote this or not ...but I too certainly agree with the need 
to get the info out to the people. All this discussion about money, paid 
courses, fees seems to be in some ways counter productive.

I'm squarely with Larry and others like him on this one.  Those who want to 
implement PC often don't have the $$$, but they can make a real difference. 
But they need help, specifics , details. Not sales pitches for the next 
course.

Best to all.   Frank

---

---

From: "Sal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:27:32 -0700

I did not write this it was taken from
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/yankee_intro.html#terrible
and said by Bill Mollison, 1981

> Not sure if Sal wrote this or not ...

---