Subject: Re: Let's continue a global directory on-line...

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:28:16 EDT

In a message dated 7/28/99 7:17:23 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<<It is a little difference if you hust put out a catalog of ressources
or addresses, which you get form the whole world - and the only thing
you do is make the layout and sort alphabetically - or if you really
invent something new - and you feel you want to get something for it.

Frankly, either you don't know what you are talking about or you are trying 
to be argumentitive instead of reaching some sort of understanding.   

There is a considerable expense in mailing to everyone on a directory, 
especially an international directory, to validate their information.   While 
the proliferation of email reduces this expense somewhat, it increases total 
work as people and groups change email addresses very frequently, even more 
frequently (by at least an order of magnitude) than they change their 
physical addresses.  Aside from mortgage payments, postage for validation of 
such lists is the major direct overhead.  The time involved in data entry and 
corrections is formidible and there is considerable work in setting up a 
really useful database.   If I publish in a print form, as I must since most 
people int he world don't have computers, I have to format every entry as the 
formatting carries information that helps save paper.  Purchases of the 
database have never covered our postage costs, not to mention printing the 
validation forms an something to serve as an envelope and printing the 
database itself.  Not to mention overhead and the cost of the computer.  And 
I don't get any money--in effect we pay money in order to be able to provide 
this service.   Partly this is a marketing problem--I don't do it.  I figure 
I'm providing a service and people will use it if they want it.
    PIJ is providing a service.  It is up to them how they do it.  If you 
took any kind of a real permaculture design course, you would know that we 
have an ethic against competing with one another and duplicating tasks.  
    There is no room in permaculture, in my opinion (and here is one place 
where I suspect Bill and I agree), either for a welfare mentality where 
people  feel ENTITLED to something or to a competitive attitude where we cut 
at the work of others.   Bill espouses, and I agree in this particular, that 
people doing the work need to be free to decide how it is done.
    It also needs to be understood that a global directory and national 
directories have been a continuing problem for permaculture.   The 
organization that became Bill's Permaculture Institute tried for a few of the 
early years to keep a listing.   I was sent one in 1983.   They gave up on 
it.    in the past the previous  incarnations of IPJ have done a really 
dreadful job, listing really ancient data, ignoring updates, etc.  Finally 
someone takes charge of the program and gathers the info and validates it 
annually, and now people feel ENTITLED to the information and ENTITLED to 
have it in whatever form suits them.   Only when you earn something are y ou 
entitled to it.   If there were no directory, we would not be having this 
conversation.  Because someone is attempting one, and now is doing what they 
must to do a good job if it. we get bitching from the non-workers.

We don't really need the owners of the cash economy to try to undercut 
permacutlure.  We are doing a great job of cutting ourselves down with this 
sort of undermining.   

It may be that IPJ doesn't mind if someone else sets up a web page.   It may 
be that they have something to say about this.  For now, I think it is 
arrogant to second guess what the people spending the time, resources and 
money to develop the list should do or shouldn't do.

Ireally don't  have anything to add to this.   So if you want to rant on 
about this topic, you've got an open field.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, 
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence 
courses via email.  Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, 
Sparr FL 32192 USA  Internships. [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at 
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers 
assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:33:19 -0400 (EDT)

Re: Let's continue a global directory on-line...
And we will do this, just to set the matter straight.

> to be argumentitive instead of reaching some sort of understanding.   

He SAID: that the PCI folks simply solicited and collected freely donated
information, given in good faith by PC professionals, field workers,
enthusiasts, etc. - HOPING that it would be used by PCI to
help put anyone in touch with them via the alleged "directory"; and that
PCI only had to format and publish this _freely donated_ information 
for distribution and SALE at _their price_  (most probably not just cost
recovery) = PROFIT for them, NO PROFIT for those who gave them the data
that made their little enterprise possible.
Comprende? Thilo wrote this in plain English, fully comprehensible by
anyone with a reasonable command of the English language. 

A FREE often-updated (like around-the-clock) Global Permaculture Directory
that can be viewed online, downloaded and easily printed out for
distribution is the best way to manage this resource.
And we will do this.

> There is a considerable expense in mailing to everyone on a directory, 

What exactly are you trying to say here?

> especially an international directory, to validate their information.   While 

If folks send in innacurate data they lose the desired contact with
clients, others. Its in their best interest to do it correctly the first
time. Again, if the directory is online, they can make corrections in real
time, anytime. I have software ready to put in place that will make this
possible. All you need is web browser and text or html editor.

> work as people and groups change email addresses very frequently, even more 

With the online version (that, of course, can be freely published and
distributed) wishing to be in the directory do nearly all the work themselves. 

> have an ethic against competing with one another and duplicating tasks.

We aren't exactly "duplicating" tasks here since ours is free and online
and fully accessable by anyone. If PCI wants to take ours and add it to
theirs for publication, fine, all the better, we get the word out and this
benefits all.

Rest assured we will do this, if I have to do it myself for free.
One contributes to the immense pool of information on the Web and one
takes out for one's own use or on the behalf of others. Thats the way it
is and has been ever since I have been online - and that started with my
FidoNet BBS many years ago. 

> at the work of others.   Bill espouses, and I agree in this particular, that 

Putting in or taking out of a free pool of resources on the Web is not
representative of the "welfare mentality" you refer to. People may indeed
feel ENTITLED to access FREELY-GIVEN information on the Web. That's what
make the Web work and why its such an incredible resource that will
ultimately benefit all of mankind in a big way.

I knew you'd see it that way, Dan. :-)

> people doing the work need to be free to decide how it is done.

Free to decide how THEIR OWN WORK is done. A little clarification.
How their copyrighted original work is done.

> directories have been a continuing problem for permaculture.   The 

Not any longer.

> permacutlure.  We are doing a great job of cutting ourselves down with this 

That hardly describes us. Kind of an extreme declaration there, Dan. Not a
little humorous.

> money to develop the list should do or shouldn't do.

They built that list with freely donated information, without which they
would be bereft of a project and hope it will turn a nice profit for them,
ignoring the fact that it can go out of date rapidly. Compare FREE GPD
on the web with (probably) expensive GPD in hardcopy, probably
out-of-date by the time they get it in the mail; an easy decision. Those
without Web access can simply ask someone who does to download it and
print it out for them. A fine and elegant solution for putting those
needing the services of a permaculture professional with those
professionals. You too would benefit. Think $$$, Dan rather than "the
system" robbing you. 
It matters not if they have _anything_ to say about someone else
implementing a global permaculture directory, online or in print or both.
Get used to it, to put it bluntly.

> about this topic, you've got an open field.  

We won't waste time ranting, as you accuse, we will _do_ instead.
 
> assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html

I see you too make good use of this forum to promote your services and
workshops. That's fine, that's what its for. Onward.

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:49:10 -0400 (EDT)

> > must to do a good job if it. we get bitching from the non-workers.
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
            I think this is a matter of debate at this point. 
So I see you're accusing users of this list as bitching "non-workers".
Amazingly short sighted comment. I'll bet everyone on this list is a hard
worker and not prone to bitching, either.
As I see it your statements above are a highly accurate snapshot of your
mindset. You probably need to go somewhere and take a refresher course in
permaculture.

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