Subject: Either... or

From: Jack Rowe <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:17:12 -0500

Re: different course formats...

In an infinite universe, there are an infinite number of 'best' ways to do
any one thing... handy, eh? 

Patterns, I think, are the very crux of permaculture -- especially in the
beginner's context. The rest is details. I think it is easy, however, to
underestimate the ability of some people to embrace the concepts... we are
beginning to absorb various permutations of the core ideas by osmosis from
many directions, nowadays. 

All said, seems there are two very different main groups we aim courses
at... 

One group is persons unfamiliar with the concepts of permaculture. A
two-week, brain-smashing design course may be hard to beat here. Some are
moved to action, some find themselves in a transformed world with almost no
footing, others I've seen -- even at Mr. Mollison's courses -- are close to
unaffected.

Speaking of details, though... another group of people have taken the
design course or have worked trying to change social or ag structures. I
think these folks need to band together and share tools oriented toward
specific tasks. Any number of days would be suitable to some one or another
level of this sort of sharing.

?

Jack Rowe

Question Reality!

---

From: Elfpermacl <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:58:10 EST

In a message dated 3/3/98 3:31:48 PM, [email-masked] wrote:

<<Re: different course formats...

at... 

unaffected.

?

Jack Rowe

Question Reality!>>

Well, when we decide to issue a certificate, the certificate should mean one
thing.  At present, it doesn't mean much at all.  It seems to me that if we
are teaching design, a entry-level competence in permaculture design should be
required for a certificate.  Since most "courses" don't have students
preparing designs, this leaves most of them out.

All our present methods of teaching permaculture are seriously flawed, mainly
for two reasons.  First, we have a hierachical teaching model for a
anarchistic design philosophy.  This internal contradiction is required if we
try to teach things quickly.  It is also required for certification, as the
certifier then has the responsibility to ensure that the certification
requirements are taught.  The second is just a surprisingly large number of
unqualified teachers--people teaching what they were taught with out gaining
solid experience practicing it.  The various teacher certification programs
come too late.  Bill started out with teacher certification and blew it wide
open himself, as with so many institutions that were in the initial
permaculture concept.  Efforts to redress the problem now amount to locking
the barn door after the horse is stolen.  The best we can do is individually
strive for high certification standards and expect that some degree of
reputation can result.  Most people won't gravitate toward quality for the
sake of quality, but those that do are worth the masses who don't and then
some.

In my experience as a teacher, the best results come from working together, if
not living together, with students over a period of a year or more.  This is a
first step toward a sustainable culture (we can throw out the perma) where
people grow up with elders and with a system in a population that embodies the
behaviorial and perceptual patterns required by place.  Most people don't want
to take the time for one-year or longer experiences.  While it is possible for
a wise and experienced person to substitute energy for time in the unfolding
of design, it is not possible to substitute speed for quality and get anything
but unpalatable hash.  This, however, is what our materialistic society
conditions us to attempt.  However there is no substitute for shared
experience.  Often the deep lessons come from the unanticipated, like an
interesting encounter with fire ants or the results of flooding on certain
crops.  From these shared experiences we see the relevance of lessons and they
stick, they strongly affect our design decisions thenceforth.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982),
Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  One is now underway.  Next live program: Advanced Design
Training in Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Only 3 openings. Copyright, 1998, Dan &
Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA. Internships available.
[email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html

---

From: Loren Davidson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:57:45 -0800

At 09:58 AM 3/4/98 EST, Elfpermacl wrote:
(on the subject of effective Pc courses)

>to take the time for one-year or longer experiences.

And, at least in our current US economic/cultural system, the invisible
structures underlying said system make it highly difficult to do such a
thing.  Because taking a year out of "society" can easily leave the person
doing so without any material resources at all, including the land/space on
which to practise Pc.  All you create is a group of "Permaculture migrant
farm workers".  So I think that what would be needed is for such long-term
programs to really give its participants the tools and support they need to
create their own "place" in a way that is not only an extension of Pc, but
can also interface with the existing economic system, including not only
creating the design for such a system, but an implementation strategy.

But you're right, Dan.  Taking a two (or three) week Design Course and then
being thrust back into one's old life without good access to such a support
structure makes it hard for that student to take more than baby steps toward
integrating Pc principles throughout their life.  I for one have been
struggling with this since my own Design Course, and "breaking the molds" is
proving to be a significant challenge for me.

What sort(s) of "invisible structures" could we create in our designs and
communities to support this sort of learning model?  In the same way that
"halfway houses" exist for retraining homeless and drug-addicted people so
that they can function on their own in "normal" society, how about creating
"Permaculture halfway houses", where in six months or a year the
student/intern is trained in skills and opened to opportunities that allow
him/her to go out at the end of their internship and be able to establish
place & design & livelihood in such a way as to limit or remove dependence
on the dominant economic system?

I realize that some of this must needs wait on a "critical mass" of Pc grads
& designers to make a stronger support network possible.  But I think the
groundwork for such a system could be laid even now.  And the graduating
interns from such a place would then be able, if they so chose, to establish
"Pc halfway houses" of their own, thus multiplying the effects geometrically
over time.

It's not "how can we convert the world to Pc", but "how can we give Pc grads
a better shot at being able to kick the 'habit' of our current
economic/social system?", at least IMHO.  And I think it's one that may be
worth pursuing, by those with the resources and inclination to do so.

Walk in balance,

Loren
--
Loren Davidson      
[email-masked]         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"Follow your dreams.  Make your wishes.  Create the future.  And above all,
believe in yourself."  -- J. Michael Straczynski

---

From: Loren Davidson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:57:45 -0800

Walk in balance,

Loren

---

From: Elfpermacl <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:55:22 EST

In a message dated 3/4/98 1:10:49 PM, [email-masked] wrote:

<<What sort(s) of "invisible structures" could we create in our designs and

Well I think it up to each person already qualified to teach permaculture in
depth to creat options.  It is then up to people who need depth in  their
permaculture training (everyone in permaculture) to do what it takes to select
and utilize an option.   We have been notably ignored in our suggestions and
options along these lines, to date, excepting our on-line course which has has
a few people sign on each time.  I'll explain how this fits in a moment.

Now, here are the ignored options.  First, I have promoted since about 1984
the idea that people with room to spare should, indeed, set up halfway houses
for people who want to become freer of control by "the system."  I don't have
time to relate the story of how I got to this place, but it was a revelation
to me that I had to be ready to do this if I am to urge people to take more
responsibility.  The idea was an empowerment interval where people have
shelter and food and work for it part time while they design a plan to become
more empowered, economically as well as emotionally and spiritually, and
implement it.  This is not a freebee for dead beats or whiners--it is for
people who feel trapped to find a way out.  Your idea of a permachulture
halfway house is a logical extension of that concept.  So far, I know of no
one who has taken up my idea and we have had no takers here.  I'm not much on
prosletizing, however.

Of course there are quite a few permaculture halfway houses.  They are called
internships.  Here at Barking Frogs Farm, one of many permaculture centers
with internships, we require interns to state goals clearly and we design a
work program that best works toward those goals within the context of what
needs to be done here.  Given we have far more work than workers, there is
quite a range of options from editorial training to beekeeping.  We allow any
time frame though if it goes beyond a year it needs to be renegotiated.  There
is option for interns to work out of the internship and develop income
sharing.  This is a way for people with no capital and only developing
expertise to ease into their own business, about as financially self-reliant
as the ambient economic system allows.  Moreover, there is the possibility,
though we don't evaluate candidates with this in mind, that people can develop
a permanent relationship with our programs and a commonworks arrangement with
the resource base which includes huge amounts of permaculture-relevant
information, a great deal of expertise in health and permaculture fields, and
a very interesting and underutilized land base.  We require people be drug-
free and respectful that this is our space.  Again, no takers. I think people
want a "job," a structured context, and they don't seem to want to define
goals.  A few times, we have terminated discussions because people did not
follow simple instructions (e.g. word limits on essays.)  There are no
requirements to this program except defined goals, interest, and effort.

Another, similar program that we have offered on a tuition basis is the APT
training program.  (Advanced Permaculture Training, our trademark for this
program.)  In this case people pay us money, design a  very rigorous program
of from one to four years, and do it.  Besides the design of their own
program, APT apprentices also produce another permaculture design, implement
it with hand tools (an electric drill is not a hand tool for these purposes),
conduct some kind of permaculture research (library or field), and some kind
of permaculture outreach.  If the program goes more than one year, the
apprentice designs specialization in one of the four areas:  design,
implementation, outreach, research.

Finally, we also have our online course.  This is an extended program of 5-6
months and, although we do not have the interpersonal connection that is one
advantage to working together in person, students do get long-term support in
working with the concepts.  You might think you understand keyline perfectly
in your two week certificate course, only to find that when you come to use it
you are confused.  This provides more time for that to happen and be
rectified.  I don't want to go into learning theory, but the longer program
has a very strong advantage in imbedding the radical of permaculture thought
in the soil of the mind.  There are advantages of convenience in the online
course, too, but they are aside the point.

I have an interest in working with a college to develop a four-year
permaculture program in which students would attend a basic permaculture
course at the beginning of their study, maybe a summer course after the first
year of getting sorted out, and then we would have set up a variety of courses
using existing teachers and courses to weave a mosaic.  Probably we need one
permaculture seminar per semester so students can take what they are learning
from specialists and integrate it in the wholistic, generalist, design
philosphy of permaculture.  Indeed, the initial intro coruse probably should
come out of the philosophy dept, but taught by a pc teacher brought in for the
purpose.  Again, I've thought this out in a lot more detail than I want to
take time for here.  Obviously, this idea is not patented.  I'm not aware of
any academic program that would meet the standard I've set, however.

Finally, for now anyway, there is the idea of teaching pc to teachers from
preschool to grad school.  There is a tremendous opportunity to get
permaculture thinking to people at an early age.  Teachers work with their
students for almost a year an our elementary schools and for at least a
semester in "higher" education.  There is another way to get continuity and
have it in the context of a more general existence together.  Moreover, the
schools often have subject matter clubs--I remember being a member of the
chemistry club, glee club, science club, math club, etc., when in high school
for example.  While good ways to spend an hour or two seated next to your
sweatie who takes the bus to the other end of town from where you live, the
clubs also do engender more in-depth knowledge and sometimes (school
administrators quake here) action.

These are just my personal ideas.  There should be this many ideas X the
number of permaculture teachers reading this list.  Lets hear them!