Subject: Re: Hedgerow plants

From: FionaNyx <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:37:52 EDT

In a message dated 98-04-08 17:20:20 EDT, you write:

<< I'm looking for suggestions on good trees/shrubs for a hedgerow in mid-
Atlantic
 USA (Maryland).  Plant hardiness zone is 6.   I'm needing some non-invasive
 species that are nitrogen-fixing, and/or good bee forage, and/or good animal
 forage or mast (chickens, sheep, cattle), and/or good wildlife forage, and/or
 human food value.  Plants on the western edge of the property are also going
to
 need to stand up to a good bit of wind.  Soil is mainly clay, with a fairly
 shallow water table, and some marshy areas.
 
 Any help appreciated! >>
Stacy H. Charland
[email-masked]

Hi, I'm from PA, about 1/2 hour from Baltimore.  Also, I grew up in Lancaster
County & so am familiar with a lot of trees in our region.

Please tell us a little more:
1) How many feet long & wide can your hedgerows potentially be?  (This helps
us decide how many layers may be used-- which is recommended, esp. where you
want a windbreak).

2)What's happening in the fields (what type of growing or forage or whatever)?
Or if not feilds, what is landuse beside hedgerows?

3)Are there water courses, pipes, roads or dwellings within several hundred
feet of them?  If so, describe in relation to the hedgerow.

4)Are there any native species already there that you want to keep or that
you'd like to put there?  

5)Are you already growing any fruit trees elsewhere?

6)Do you keep or plan to keep bees?

~~Sherry/ aka [email-masked]

---

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:32:25 +0100

I'm not too familiar with all the plants you can grow in the US, there'd be
better advisers then myself but try a search on the Plants for a Future
database using your various descriptors.

http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html

UteB
----------
: From: Charland, Stacy <[email-masked]>
: To: 'perm-l' <[email-masked]'>
: Subject: Hedgerow plants
: Date: 08 April 1998 22:08
: 
: I'm looking for suggestions on good trees/shrubs for a hedgerow in
mid-Atlantic
: USA (Maryland).  Plant hardiness zone is 6.   I'm needing some
non-invasive
: species that are nitrogen-fixing, and/or good bee forage, and/or good
animal
: forage or mast (chickens, sheep, cattle), and/or good wildlife forage,
and/or
: human food value.  Plants on the western edge of the property are also
going to
: need to stand up to a good bit of wind.  Soil is mainly clay, with a
fairly
: shallow water table, and some marshy areas.
: 
: Any help appreciated!
: 
: 
: Stacy H. Charland
: [email-masked]
: 
: "A fool and his money are soon partying."   -unknown
:

---

From: "Charland, Stacy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:56:44 -0400

Hi, I'm from PA, about 1/2 hour from Baltimore.  Also, I grew up in
Lancaster
	County & so am familiar with a lot of trees in our region.
	[Charland, Stacy]  Hi Sherry!  Nice to meet you...

	Please tell us a little more:
	1) How many feet long & wide can your hedgerows potentially be?  (This
helps
	us decide how many layers may be used-- which is recommended, esp. where
you
	want a windbreak).
	[Charland, Stacy]  The land we are purchasing is 56 acres, basically a
rectangle, 14 wooded acres on the North (non-sunward) side, the rest cleared.
There is already some trees/scrub around the perimeter of the property, but in
some spots pretty sparse. With 40 acres of cleared area, we have a lot of
options on design! 

	2)What's happening in the fields (what type of growing or forage or
whatever)?
	Or if not feilds, what is landuse beside hedgerows?
	[Charland, Stacy] The cleared land has been traditional, mono-cropped
farmland for quite some time.  Clay soil, very little organic matter.  Although
we may put some in hay/pasture, I expect that a good bit should be converted
back to forest.  The hedge areas I am thinking would be set up to surround our
house, orchard, and animal pastures (all yet to be designed and constructed!).  

	3)Are there water courses, pipes, roads or dwellings within several
hundred
	feet of them?  If so, describe in relation to the hedgerow.
	[Charland, Stacy]  We would like to put in some catchment ponds in some
of the lower areas,  but most of these are not close to existing property lines.
There are springheads just inside the existing woods, but no other running
water.  Topography is very slightly rolling, highest points to the east side,
and mostly sloping down to north, west, and south.

	4)Are there any native species already there that you want to keep or
that
	you'd like to put there?  
	[Charland, Stacy]  around the perimeter, there is what looks like wild
cherry (my identification books are somewhere in storage!) and osage orange,
plus poplar, some blackberry, and the ever present wild roses.  I wouldn't mind
keeping some blackberry patches, but closer to home I'd prefer less invasive
beasties.  This property is poor on the diversity side, which I would like to
improve.  I'm looking now for appropiate species, so I can start setting up a
plant nursery.

	 5)Are you already growing any fruit trees elsewhere?
	[Charland, Stacy]  No, but plan for an orchard to be planted after the
house is built.

	6)Do you keep or plan to keep bees?
	[Charland, Stacy]  Yes! (plan to). 

	 If anybody would like to come out and have a design spree, let me know!
	Stacy Charland
	[email-masked]

---

From: "Permaculture West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:39:23 -0700

> do you have the botanical names for Autumn Olive and Cornus mas?
> thanks,
> April

Autumn Olive: Eleagnus umbellata
Cornus mas: Cornus mas (Cornelian Cherry)

Kirk Hanson
C/O Permaculture West
72 Mattson Rd.
Oakville, WA 98568
ph./fx. (360) 273-7117
e-mail: [email-masked]

---

From: "Guy Clark" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:10:00 -0500

April-
Cornus mas is the botanical name for the Corneliancherry Dogwood which is a
beautiful tree/shrub that can achieve 20-25 ft high by 15-20 ft wide.  It
is hardy to -30 degrees F (Zone 4 in the U.S. to Zone 8), but it does not
do well in the deep south.  It is a large multi-stemmed shrub or small tree
of oval-rounded outline that often branches to the ground making grass
culture impossible (always a plus in my book.)  You can prune it to make a
tree and it can sucker profusely.  It has a medium growth rate and medium
texture.  The bark is a flaky, exfoliating grey to cinnamon which is quite
nice.  It has dark green summer foliage and rarely good fall color
(purplish to red).  Yellow flowers open in late winter/early spring which
are effective for about three weeks on last year's wood.  They are yellow
in umbels about 3/4 inch across with individual flowers about 1/6 inch
across.  The real show are the bracts which surround the umbels before they
open.  They are quite spectacular considering how early they flower.  The
fruit is a drupe about 5/8 inch long and 1/2 inch wide, bright cherry red
in July (midsummer).  They are used for syrup & preserves.  The tree
transplants well when young (balled and burlapped) and is adaptable
regarding soil and pH.  They prefer rich, well-drained soil in sun to
partial shade.  They have no real disease or pest problems and are sadly
underutilized in landscapes.

Autumn Olive is Elaeagnus umbellata.  I would warn you up front that this
plant is considered to be a pest itself just a step below Kudzu,
Loosestrife and Crown Vetch.  Produces abundant fruit which bird spread
with abandon.  Its virtue is its ability to fix nitrogen and withstand
salt.  In fact you can pour salt directly on the ground around the plant
and it will grow on unfazed.  The foliage is a nice green with grey
undersides and the flowers are wonderfully fragrant in May.  I would advise
you stay away from this plant unless you want it all over your, hopefully
large, property and your neighbors.

	I took much of this information from Michael Dirr's Manual of Woody
Landscape Plants:  Their Identification, Ornamental Characteristics,
Culture, Propagation and Uses which is the Bible for trees.  Along with
fellow University of Georgia professor, Dr. Armitage's perennial guide
which is equally exceptional.
Namaste',
Guy Clark
Fertile Crescent Farm
310 Hartley Court
Columbia, MO  65201
573.449.GROW
[email-masked]

---

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:39:37 +0100

Autumn olive = Eleganus spec.
Dog wood = Cornus mas

----------
| From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
| To: [email-masked]
| Subject: RE: hedgerow plants
| Date: 27 May 1998 04:44
| 
| do you have the botanical names for Autumn Olive and Cornus mas?
| thanks,
| April
[snip] 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| >

---

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:22:43 +0100

Hi!
Sorry to contradict you but in my experience Hippophae - under the right
conditions - is quite invasive as it suckers. It's a classic pioneer of
sandy coastal habitats in Europe. I haven't seen it being spread by birds
(seeds) outside its natural habitat, though. Personally I love it and have
planted a few and hope they *will* invade my place because of their beauty
and invaluable properties. If there's too much I can always cut it back or
dig it up.

Ute

[snip| 
| Seabuckthorn - or sea berry (Hippophae rhamnoides L.)
| 
| NOT invasive 
| Nitrogen fixing
| Erosion control (surface root system)
| Tolerates poor slightly alkaline soils
| Edible berries rich with vitamin C, A and bioflavonoid (juices, jellies)
| Very valuable medicinal oil in berries
| Light shade provider
| Very hardy, probably drought tolerant, 6-12 feet tall 
| 
| Scott & Arina Pittman
| 
| Permaculture Institute
| PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
| *********
| Ingenio Patet Campus

---

From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:23:03 -0700 (PDT)

>and invaluable properties. If there's too much I can always cut it back or

Don't want to argue, but I have not seen a single sucker for 16 years in
none of seabuckthorn orchards in my homecountry (but it is not sandy nor
coastal). I read about root suckers as one of the propagation techniks for
sea berry. So far we were able to find only three nurseries in USA which
carry seabuckthorn in very limited numbers and varieties. So at some point
even if in your particular enviroment it will tend to spread by suckers you
can always pot it, so more people can enjoy this nice plant.

Arina
Scott & Arina Pittman

Permaculture Institute
PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
*********
Ingenio Patet Campus

---

From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 20:23:07 -0700 (PDT)

At 12:49 PM 5/28/98 -0500, Guy Clark wrote:
>Michael-
>	According to Dirr's Manual of Woody Landscape Plants, Common Seabuckthorn
>(Hippophae rhamnoides) is hardy to Zone 3 (-40).  He says it does tend to
>form large colonies by suckering profusely, but he does not curse it by
>calling it invasive.  It is supposed to have a bright orange fruit which is
>drupe-like.  He says that it is one of the best plants for winter fruit
>color.  It is nitrogen fixing; in fact, it is in the same family as the
>Autumn Olive.  He says that it can be a bit difficult to get started.  It
>prefers an infertile, sandy soil with a moist subsoil.  It is salt tolerant
>and should be planted in a ratio of 6 females to one male for proper
>pollination (much like Ilex verticillata).  It is apparently hard to sex
>the plants so you may end up with all non-fruiting plants.
>Namaste',
>Guy Clark
>Fertile Crescent Farm
>310 Hartley Court
>Columbia, MO  65201
>573.449.GROW
>[email-masked]
>

It can be propageted by both greenwood and hardwood cuttings, wich will have
the same sex as parent plant.

Arina
Scott & Arina Pittman

Permaculture Institute

---

From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:13:46 +0100

Hi Arina,
I guess it all comes down to site condition. My brother-in-law has planted
some in a loamy soil in northern Germany and they sucker profusely. As for
here (Ireland / brown earth) I'll have to see and wait as they were only
planted this spring. I also took some ripe berries around Christmas 96 from
Germany and managed to grow some plants. I hope there'll be a male amongst
them. You are right, of course, about giving away surplus plants. There's
not much of a garden culture in this neck of the woods and most people here
have never seen sea buckthorn but I guess I could convince some folks of
the plants value. 
Another anecdote: In the post WWII years sea buckthorn was protected by law
in Germany as it was pretty much the only source of Vitamin C left in the
country (apart from apples)!

Ute

----------
| From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
| To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
| Subject: Re: hedgerow plants
| Date: 31 May 1998 04:23
| 
| At 02:22 PM 5/28/98 +0100, Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack wrote:
| >Hi!
| >Sorry to contradict you but in my experience Hippophae - under the right
| >conditions - is quite invasive as it suckers. It's a classic pioneer of
| >sandy coastal habitats in Europe. I haven't seen it being spread by
birds
| >(seeds) outside its natural habitat, though. Personally I love it and
have
| >planted a few and hope they *will* invade my place because of their
beauty
| >and invaluable properties. If there's too much I can always cut it back
or
| >dig it up.
| >
| >Ute
| 
| Don't want to argue, but I have not seen a single sucker for 16 years in
| none of seabuckthorn orchards in my homecountry (but it is not sandy nor
| coastal). I read about root suckers as one of the propagation techniks
for
| sea berry. So far we were able to find only three nurseries in USA which
| carry seabuckthorn in very limited numbers and varieties. So at some
point
| even if in your particular enviroment it will tend to spread by suckers
you
| can always pot it, so more people can enjoy this nice plant.
| 
| Arina
| Scott & Arina Pittman
| 
| Permaculture Institute
| PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
| *********
| Ingenio Patet Campus