Subject: RE: [Permaculture] African Deserts; distance PDC

From: John Schinnerer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:35:30 -0700

Aloha,

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Hemenway [mailto:[email-masked]]
>...This is the site assessment phase as taught in the PDC: know your client
>and site. Scott (I believe) and I assume that you've already done this,
>have the backing of the client, and now you're at the implementation phase,
>asking whether digging stick or dozer is a more effective and appropriate
>technology. 

Right on...my take is that since most "well-meaning foreigners" (such as the
IMF, USAID, Peace Corps, etc.) do not engage adequately (or at all) with
clients/stakeholders, and that is what people are "used to," it is really
important to make that aspect of designing always explicit in permaculture
practice...including on permaculture list discussions, since anyone can join
the list and lurk and I for one don't want 'em assuming permaculture also
"barges in."

>...if you
>haven't done a good site assessment and if you don't know your client, any
>design, large or small, will fail....
<snip>
>...These issues are at the heart
>of permaculture every bit as much as the techniques (and why no designer
>wants to work without seeing the site and client), and we ignore them at
>our own peril.

...which leads me to questions about online and distance learning PC design
courses, where student's designs may be evaluated sight (and site, and
client(s)) unseen...thoughts, anyone?

John Schinnerer

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:41:49 EDT

In a message dated 7/15/99 8:36:46 PM, [email-masked] 
writes:

<<...which leads me to questions about online and distance learning PC design
courses, where student's designs may be evaluated sight (and site, and
client(s)) unseen...thoughts, anyone?

John Schinnerer>>

Well , John, as a teacher of one of the two online permaculture courses, I 
have some thoughts.  First, it is a concern that we do not get to walk the 
land with students.  I have set up hybrid options where we can do that part 
of the program at a workshop, but not every one has the time or money to do 
that extra work.  Since my course runs five to six months, I have far more 
time to work with students on their designs and as an experienced 
permaculturist, teaching since 1981, I have a pretty good idea of what 
questions to ask when I see certain features in the design.  Ultimate, I am 
about dead positive there are no type 1 errors in a design that I approave.  
I can't be so sure that t here are not missed opportunities, but when you 
have been doing this for nearly 20 years, you get to know when something is 
missing.  I am pretty sure that the designs I approve do not have any major 
missed opportunities.  I have had in one case passed a design with 
reservations--dwelling on the highest point but supposedly necessary for 
various reasons.  This was a South African (Natal) design site and I am in 
the USA and I am damn sure neither the student nor I were prepared for the 
expense of getting out there.  On the other hand, I think our certification 
standards are among the most stringent, if not THE most stringent.  When I 
think of the superficial design work that sailed through in the course I took 
with Mollison in 1981, I'm pretty sure we are making progress in the right 
direction.
	Now it one thing to review a design by distance, and quite another to 
attempt to design by maps and so forth.  I have known permaculturists who 
claimed to be able to do this, and I have told them straight out that I wish 
they would call what they do something else.  The person doing the design has 
to be there, and if it is a beginner, s/he has to have frequent access to the 
site because s/he will need to recheck things and go back for another look 
because somethng was missed or forgotten.   We can all need that second look, 
of course, but for me I find that spending time on the site and documenting 
everything from every angle with photographs has, up to now, avoided hitting 
the client with the expense of a second field visit.  
	Online permaculture courses aren't for everyone, of course, aside 
from the fact that most people on planet Earth do not have computer access.  
For some people, the person walking the site with them, pointing out the 
relevant factors, and checking in with them when they get that telltale 
glazed-eye look --all those things are needed.  Others, people who can read a 
book and make it work in the garden or shop or kitchen right off, they have 
no problems at all with "distance" learning.
	Generally, I'd say that our online students are far better prepared 
to practice permaculture and far less to lose interest after the program is 
over than those who take our three-week certificate course.  I think going to 
TWO weeks was a big mistake--we should be moving in the opposit direction.  
I've designed several programs for people who don't need or care about 
certificates, but for people who are looking at a activist sort of role in 
permaculture, much more foundation is needed, not less and less.  

Having said this, I don't think most teachers should try to teach this way.  
They haven't the experience, for one thing.  And frankly the market is pretty 
thin--people who want a quick and easy certificate will go to a two-week 
quickie and be done with it.  That is most people.  Personally I enjoy 
working with small groups of extremely motivated people and I will stack 
their designs not agains other student designs but against the designs of 
other teachers, any day.  (I should note that if I am not satisfied with a 
design I don't "flunk" the student, I give them instructions on how to fix it 
and they present it in the next course--no extra charge.  So they may have as 
much as 18 months to get it right.  And they do.)

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, 
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence 
courses via email.  Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, 
Sparr FL 32192 USA  Internships. [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at 
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers 
assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html

PS  We have a live design intensive in Northern CA next month which is also a 
dynamite program for producing outstanding student designs.  It is not a 
certificate program, but it is great for homeowners who want to do their own 
designs, and gives a lot better design experience than is possible in any 
live permacutlure design course I know of.  So it is a good program also to 
take before, or after, a certificate coruse.  Some of our online students do 
their paracticum  in the live workshop, and so they get the best of both 
worlds.

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