Subject: Coming Courses in Mexico

From: Skye <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:26:33 -0600

Permaculture and related courses coming up in Mexico, this year!!!!

Please pass on this information to friends or other organisations

July 31/Aug 7 
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Condensed Format)

 with GRUPEDSAC, Piedra Grande, Edo Mexico (GRUPEDSAC is an excellent
demonstartion site of ecotechnics, such as water treatment systems,
biodigestors, ferrocement...)
 Contact Arturo Farias, Tel. (Mex) 558704429, or 044 54376228 
         Email     [email-masked]
                   [email-masked]
                   [email-masked]

July 28/Sept 11  
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Full Format)

   for Instituto de Permacultura de Mexico AC
  (note that this course will have an emphasis on working with
local       rural communities, and will especially suit promotors and
staff of    NGOs working in rural or development areas)
   Contact Gina Bisaillon - (Mex) 415 22719
           [email-masked]
           [email-masked]

Sept 21, 22  
Introduction to Permaculture

   for  CICEANA (Environmnetal Education Facility), Los Viveros,      
Coayacan, Mexico City
   Contact Ana Rosa Moreno (Mex) 56598355
           [email-masked]
           [email-masked]

October 12,13  
Introduction to Permaculture

    for  CICEANA, Los Viveros, Coayacan, Mexico City
    Contact Ana Rosa Moreno (Mex) 56598355
            [email-masked]
            [email-masked]

Oct 15 to 17 
Introduction to EcoVillage Design

   at Huehuecoyotl Community, Tepotzlan, Morelos
   Contact Skye, Fax 434 24176,  [email-masked]
        or Dora Romero, (Mex) 56774292, [email-masked]

Oct 19 to 24 
Advanced Teachers Training Course

     with GRUPEDSAC, Piedra Grande, Edo Mexico
    Contact Arturo Farias, Tel. (Mex) 558704429, or 044 54376228 
            [email-masked]
            [email-masked]
            [email-masked]

Nov 6 to 13   
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Condensed Format)

      with GRUPEDSAC, Piedra Grande, Edo Mexico
      Contact Arturo Farias, Tel. (Mex) 558704429, or 044 54376228 
              [email-masked]
              [email-masked]
              [email-masked]

Nov 20 to Dec 4   
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Full format, with option of     
extended work exchange experience at Tamu Tariaticha Community)

     Tamu Tariaticha, Patzcuaro, Michoacan, Mexico
     Contact Skye Fax (Mex) 434 24176, [email-masked]

Feb 20 to 27, 2000     
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Condensed Format)

     with GRUPEDSAC, Piedra Grande, Edo Mexico
     Contact Arturo Farias, Tel. (Mex) 558704429, or 044 54376228 
             [email-masked]
             [email-masked]
             [email-masked]
-- 
Skye - Apdo # 391,  Patzcuaro, Michoacan, CP. 61600 México. 
fax  (52) 01 (434) 24743
Profesor y diseñador en Permacultura
Director del Instituto de Permacultura de México A.C.
Talleres de desarrollo humano, planeación participativa y 
economía comunitaria.

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From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:34:01 -0700 (PDT)

>Permaculture Design Certificate Course (Condensed Format)

Could you please explain a condensed format?  According to the Foundation
Yearbook of The Permaculture Academy, 1993 edition.  Certification only
comes after 72 hours of instruction, traditionally this takes thirteen days
because you also need time for design exercise, talent show, hands on
demonstration, etc.  With thirteen days at 8 hours per day you get an
additional 32 hours for the stuff outside the purview of the course outline.

IN order to get in a full "certification course" you will have to teach 13
hours a day to get equivalent of 104 hours.  Or 9 hours a day to reach 72
hour of just course outline which I feel really short changes the students.

I personally find it a real challenge to cover all the material in two weeks
and understand why the course was originally three weeks.

I don't think you should call it a "certification course" unless you are
meeting the criteria established by Bill Mollison and the Permaculture
Institute.  That is the criteria by which all of us received our
certification and any thing less than that diminishes the value of all of
our certificates.

I realize it is a trend to modify and change those things in permaculture
that are inconvenient or difficult but if one changes too much then it is no
longer permaculture and shouldn't be called such.

Scott Pittman

Scott Pittman

Permaculture Institute, USA
PO Box 3702, Pojoaque, NM 87501  US
phone 505.455.0270

*********
Ingenio Patet Campus

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From: Scott Pittman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:39:11 -0700 (PDT)

I hope the resounding silence to my question is a glitch in your computer or
server and not a "ignore him and he'll go away" response.  I would greatly
appreciate an answer.

At 04:34 PM 7/27/99 -0700, Scott Pittman wrote:

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Scott Pittman

*********
Ingenio Patet Campus

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From: Skye <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 20:30:50 -0600

In response to Scott Pitmans concerns

First, let me apologise for the delay in responding. Unfortunately there
was no telephone access high in the mountains where the last course was
held. But I'm back in contact again - for a while at least. You'll have
to be patient if my responses are occassionally delayed - sometimes the
reality of working in a country like this interfers with the best of
intentions.

Since I often find it wasteful of my time to re-read, and sometimes
re-read what I have re-read the messages on some listservors, I
obviously did not repeat my earlier message about the condensed format
approach, when I emailed the list of course dates. Maybe I erred on the
side of breivity. Sorry if this caused confusion. I note that  John
Schinnerer realised the connection and has already reposted my earlier
message. I hope that clears the issue. I'd rather not repost the repost
yet again!!!

I do make it clear to students in this course that a design certificate
cannot be issued unless I receive and verify the design excercise. At
the end of the course they are given instructions on the design process,
they are given written instructions to support that information and I
offer to supply any further advice/information that they may need during
the process.

Obviously it is a little early to make a general assessment of how this
approach is working. However the few design projects I have received to
date show a good understanding of the concepts of Permacaulture. Their
standard of work is definitey much superior to the repesentations I
recall after the 4 hour design excercise that was included in my course
with Bill 15 years ago. I have not asked the students to list the
quantity of hours they spend on this part of the course, but from what I
have seen, I am sure that their total involvement (course and design
work) would well exceed 100 hours (I can't see how they could produce
such quality reports in less time than that).

By the same token, those people that know me and have worked with me,
know that I am not inflexible. If this approach does not produce the
quality that I have come to expect after 8 years of teaching, then I
assure you, I will be the first person to change the whole approach. As
I have said before (in this forum) I don't beleive in the
anit-ecological, Americanism "if it ain't broke don't fix fix it".
Personally I'm into constant improovement, where appropriate - just like
Nature is.

Talking of appropriate, yes there are some parts of a course that I do
not cover.

In my course with Bill, he spent many hours explaining the Trombe method
of generating compressed air. Since I have never heard of any
Permaculturist building such a system, and since the people I am working
with could not afford to buy a compressed-air drill (or grain thresher -
if such a thing exists) even if some well-meaning NGO built one for them
- then I find that information irrelevant. Its not that this technologgy
is "inconvenient or difficult" to teach, just irrelevant to these
people.

Even more obvious technologies like solar panels are not covered in
detail. For a campesino who would really struggle to save the $40 needed
to self-build a ferro-cement water tank, the $800 or more for a
photovoltaic system is simply pie-in-the-sky stuff. I give them the
address of the best solar designer (a PC person) in Mexico, but I doubt
if any have ever had the slightest possibility of even dreaming of such
a system (the low, obviously subsidised price of electricity in Mexico
makes such systems uneconomic even for those with money!).

Bill also likes talking and encouraging the use of Trusts as legal
structures. Since such a legal concept does not exist in Mexican law, I
don't teach it. Its irrelevant. The legal alternative to a for-profit
company here is an "asociaccion civil"  - used by NGOs and
not-for-profit legal entities, like the Permaculture Institute of
Mexico. Again, the $1000 legal price tag for such a legal structure is
irrelevant to 99% of my students (for those that are interested I am
better off recommending a competant and trustworthy lawyer (if there is
such a thing), rather than me trying to explain the Mexican legal
structure).

So, slap me over the knuckles - but I am into making the courses
relevant to life of the people I am working with. Sorry, I don't know
any other way!!!!

But, overall, I'm with you Scott, we must maintain the level and
standard of Permaculture. Much of my work here is to that very end. But,
I insist on the right to make what I teach relevant to the people I am
working with.

Skye

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From: Marsha Hanzi <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 16:11:12 -0300

Hello Skye!
    I'm going to get my show together to do a course with you one of these days!  I am
really attracted to being your student... You give the kind of course I like to take!
(OK to give, too, but at the moment I would LOVE being a student again!)
    My doctor, who is clairvoyant ( see s the aura, past lives, and such), told me that
I have "unfinished business"in Machu Picchu, MExico, and near the Great Lakes in the US
of A...
    I plan  to go to Machu Pichu in November, and then  Mexico, who knows?  maybe in
February or so...  As soon as I get my show together..
    Things here are flowing with much greater fluidity since the eclipse.  Are you
feeling the same?  As if barriers have fallen.
    We have started a 5-month training course in urban permaulture for a group of 25
young unemployed  people, and it is promising.  They are quite interested, although in
fact would prefer to sing and dance "pagode" rather than plant.  But even so I am
managing to go quite deep with them in terms of vision and creative vizualization  ( we
started last Wednesday.)  The  process will be: personal vision - community vision -
mapping ( to see what already exists):physical, human resources, institutions -
mobilization of these resources. Accompanied by a basic PC course  with the skills  (
planning a rpoperty, planting a garden, etc.) With a strong medicinal herbs component.
At the same time a friend wil give them training in entrepreneurial skills (
management, planning, budgeting, etc.)
    We have them five hours a day for five months.  Have never had the opportunity to
work so long with a group of people!
    After end-October  they will be expected to have a project designed.  The last
three months will be dedicated to acompanying the project...Whatever they choose.
    As you can imagine, there is a wild variety of interests, talents, and educational
levels, from one illiterate young man, to a girl who is preparing for university...
    I think this is going to be "forte"...
    I bet you would be great with a group like this...

Robina arrives on the 29th of this month.  Am a  bit anxious because I have not yet got
firm replies from sponsors, schools,e tc.  I know there is a lot of interest out there,
but nothing confirmed yet.  It is always like this, but it is a bit hair-raising when
you have   money and precious time of other people  on the table...

Well, that's it for now!

Good luck on all your projects!  And enjoy my favorite country!

Marsha
Skye escreveu:

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