From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Mar 13 10:50:08 1999 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:50:08 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0915414884 0000000111 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 8 14:52:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08209 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA27022 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03131; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:37:22 -0400 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA02443; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:32:14 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id OAA20104; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710081426_MC2-2338-3B77@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:26:44 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: guilds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA08209 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 I think a useful starting "answer" to the guilds/standard-designs thing might be the eternally-useful "Both"... There are, doubtless, some useful basic designs -- very basic, at the present level of development of this idea -- that can be passed around as starting points for local elaboration. At the same time, knowledge of plants in general, and of locally-adapted plants specifically, is very helpful. Much of that knowledge may need to be gotten by experimentation, but a lot of valuable time can be saved by a little study, and by sharing of ideas. A couple design functions might distinguish a guild from simple companion planting. The plants used might serve complementary PURPOSES as well as complementing each other's growth biochemically. The complementary spatial relationships -- both under- and above-ground -- of guilded plants goes beyond the traditional companion-planting framework. The idea of guilds as groupings of mutually-supportive plants for placement into brittle environments as pioneers for reforrestation also goes beyond companion-planting. All this is complicated by the fact of succession -- natural environments are rarely static -- and by the unnatural state of the average garden, wherein stability is usually enforced by violence. And many permaculural ideas come from the tropics, where perennial starchy plants abound, and where there is plenty light to grow these under extensive tree cover. Where do we start? The idea of throwing out as many species as possible -- hopefully locally-adapted -- is perfectly valid, and admits the wisdom of Nature, and our own beginners' status (side note: in research by the Land Institute, the greater the number of legume species in an initial prairie mix, the greater the total number of species -- legume and non-legume -- in the resulting stabilized community). Any known case of happy association -- as in the companion-planting literature, or with the apple-Rubus mixes Dan mentioned, etc. -- is another good starting point for further elaboration. A combination of these two approaches -- basic framework with a handful of seed thrown in for good measure -- would cover the "both" aspect nicely. Don't forget some N-fixers. Few of us have the time, space or financial resources ("space-time-cash" continuum?) to design numerous combinations and try them out in practice, which is too bad. Sharing successful ideas (or even hypothetical ones) is thus very valuable, as is knowing plants well enough to be able to apply those ideas locally -- though if you don't know plants well, you can try them anyway, and will learn... perhaps discovering something an expert would have missed, in the process! As someone -- Lee, Lawrence? -- suggested, unless we monocrop or apply pavement, we'll probably come out ahead of the game. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Oct 14 13:00:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10788 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA10265 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06835; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:45:12 -0400 Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA05535; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:36:04 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09537 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA08046 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:27:24 -0400 From: Dori Green To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale! Turnkey 20-acre farm five miles from New York State's #3 tourist destination. 12-room 3-bedroom house, garage, two-story horse barn, orchards, perennial herb gardens, and pasture on five acres, $80,000. Sorry, no land contract on this parcel. Includes many pieces of farming equipment, a commercial-size freezer, woodstove (also has central heat), all major appliances, even an Aracauna chicken flock and a good start toward your dairy goat herd if you want them and can convince me you'd take excellent care of them! Adjoining 15 acres includes 5 acres of wild strawberries, 3 acres of wild rasp- and blackberries, a bog full of cattails and Joe-Pye Weed, and a 2-acre market garden limed and seeded to winter rye for next year's harvest -- $10,000, will consider a five-year land contract with 50% down. Country auction house and 3D archery range next door, about 200 people visit there every Saturday night and many buy vegetables. New farmer's market in town. Reason for sale: I've accepted a CSA facilitator position in Puget Sound and will be relocating before Christmas. My marriage dissolved at this farm, it holds as many bad memories as good ones and I'm ready for new beginnings. It's too much for one person, but a team could do very well here. I'll be glad to include a list of past CSA members and other market contacts. Dori Green: Writer, Farmer, Facilitator Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living http://www.servtech.com/public/funfarm/index.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 16 15:55:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29312 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12696 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24126; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2.sprynet.com (m2.sprynet.com [165.121.2.99]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23140 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.149.184] (dd32-184.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.149.184]) by m2.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08270 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:41:35 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:41:35 -0700 Reply-To: allixes@sprynet.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: allixes@sprynet.com (Allixandria Sherral) To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Early Winter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: allixes@m2.sprynet.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 I just saw the first wave of sandhill cranes to fly over at least 2 to 4 weeks earlier than usual plus the Lubbock area had its first threat of frost this week also two weeks ahead of schedule. Does anyone else have other signs to report about an early winter and possible a hard one? El Nino is at it again. Allixandria Sherral allixes@sprnet.com Wolfforth, Texas From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Nov 25 03:17:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA20465 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA24331 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA21413; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (F1.hotmail.com [207.82.250.12]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13633 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1492 invoked by uid 0); 25 Nov 1997 06:02:46 -0000 Received: from 207.175.144.247 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:02:45 PST Message-Id: <19971125060246.1491.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:02:45 PST Reply-To: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "john valenzuela" To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Agroforestry workshops Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: [207.175.144.247] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Announcing a presentation and two workshops on the Big Island of Hawai'i: Making a Living from Agroforestry December 19 (Fri) 6 pm 'til closing At the Na'alehu theater, no charge Presentation by Michael Pilarski, including a slide show on agroforestry systems from around the world. December 20 (Sat) 10:00 am to 5:00 pm workshop At the Na'alehu theater Presenters: Michael Pilarski, John Valenzuela, Douglas Bullock DRY climates on Hawai'i will the focus Sponsored by the Ka'u Agro-Forestry Association Contact: Bob Jacobson, KAFA PO Box 727, Na'alehu, Hawai'i 96772 Tel:(808)966-8831 Email: jacobs@hgea.org December 21 (Sun) 10:00 am to 5:00 pm workshop At Kalopa State Park (near Paauilo, Hamakua) Presenters: Michael Pilarski, Joseph Dalrymple, John Valenzuela, and Douglas Bullock WET climates on Hawai'i will be the focus Directions: Look for the signs just north of Paauilo. Kalopa Park is 3 miles above the main highway. We will meet at the pavilion. Sponsored by the Hamakua Guild of Agroforesters Contact: Howard Wright PO Box 11414, 106 Wainaku St. Hilo, Hawai'i 96721 Tel:(808)982-7133 Both full day workshops will provide an introduction to agroforestry and permaculture, and report on the recommendations from our Moloka'i permaculture course. Information will be presented on establishment, planting patterns, species selection and water management for each focus climate. Be prepared for a field trip or walk to look at trees and local landscapes. We will discuss many different kinds of agroforestry crops including: high-value timber, bamboo, mushrooms, medicinal herbs, seeds, lei material, essential oils, ornamentals, fiber, craftwood and more... Each workshop is $25, bring a lunch. John Valenzuela Permaculture Services PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778 USA message phone: (808)331-3049 e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Nov 27 20:43:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA14493 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03763 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20405; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mordred.castle.net.au (root@mordred.castle.net.au [203.29.23.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19920 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mark.castle.net.au (ppp-1.ncl.castle.net.au [203.29.23.129]) by mordred.castle.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27867 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:36:34 +1100 Message-Id: <199711280136.MAA27867@mordred.castle.net.au> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:35:14 +1100 Reply-To: mark@castle.net.au Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "mark" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 please please please somebody tell me how to UNSUBSCRIBE. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Dec 2 11:54:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29677 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12785 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22220; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from scheherazade.devnull.net (root@[207.201.56.225]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20412 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.196.120.147] (sf-ip-2-209.ziplink.net [208.196.121.209]) by scheherazade.devnull.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04292 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:11 -0800 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:49:52 -0600 Reply-To: rachel@devnull.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: rachel@devnull.net (Rachel Freifelder) To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: garden internship at Dancing Rabbit Village Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 ECOVILLAGE GARDEN INTERNSHIPS Wanted: An intern, for a period of three to six months during the calendar year 1998, to assist in farming and food production at Dancing Rabbit in Rutledge, Missouri. The Project Dancing Rabbit is a new ecovillage in northeast Missouri. As a demonstration project, it will coalesce many threads of ecological design and technology in order to build a truly sustainable human settlement on the scale of a small town (approximately 1000 residents). Its purpose is to be a model for future development and retrofits along ecologically sustainable lines in North America. Dancing Rabbit will research and develop social, economic, and technological systems that enable humans to live comfortably while integrating with rather than degrading the ecosystems of which they are a part. The Land and the Farm At present, the Dancing Rabbit Land Trust (site of future Dancing Rabbit town) owns 280 acres of beautiful rolling hills 50 miles west of the Mississippi River. Intensive design of the ecovillage is occurring during the fall and winter of 1997, with building to commence in the spring of 1998. As part of the ecological demonstration project, Dancing Rabbit plans to grow all its own food in a manner that is sustainable for our land and our bioregion, without petrochemical inputs and minimizing inputs from other regions. Farm and garden work will be done by hand or by draft animals, with possible occasional uses of a biofuel-powered tractor. In our first growing season, with hand labor only, we grew all the vegetables we needed for 8 residents and many short-term visitors, and canned over 500 quarts of fruit and vegetables to get us through the winter. With season extension structures and dry fruit storage, we had fresh tomatoes in November and greens all winter. We also grew some staples (potatoes and beans) though not enough to last all winter. Our only input was composted green waste from the nearby town of Memphis. Our gardening fits into our overall living system according to ecological and permacultural principles. We use a variety of methods, including biointensive raised beds, no-till/no-weed beds, living mulches, polycultural mixes. We recycle greywater into the garden, as well as kitchen scraps, livestock manure and composted human wastes. In the next year we plan to grow more staples, learn to work with our draft horse, establish an herb garden, and add fruit trees to the edible landscape around our houses. Intern Work Requirements An intern would be expected to participate in all aspects of food production at Dancing Rabbit, from bed preparation to composting to harvest and processing, and possibly including research, either experimental or literature-based, into methods to optimize the sustainability and productivity of our food system. We value and honor whatever knowledge and experience the intern brings. Work will often be side-by side with residents of Dancing Rabbit. Work hours will be arranged with the garden coordinator, and will probably average 20-30 hours per week over the course of an intern's stay at Dancing Rabbit. The intern will be welcome to join the community in other activities, such as studies of local ecology, foraging for wild plants, construction of our first straw bale cabin, and work for neighbor farmers. Alternately, the intern could conduct other projects of his or her choice or simply take time to swim in the ponds and otherwise enjoy what the land has to offer. This should be considered an opportunity to practice whatever skills one has, and to participate in a mutual learning process within Dancing Rabbit's development. Supervision The intern will work with and be supervised by the garden coordinator, Rachel Freifelder, and by the animal manager, Jennifer Ray. Rachel has a master's degree in Ecology from Stanford University in Stanford, CA, studied Agroecology and Soil Science for two years at the University of California at Davis, and has experience in organic farming and gardening. Jennifer has extensive experience training, driving and caring for horses, and is Secretary of the Missouri Organic Crop Improvement Association. Other Dancing Rabbit members also do considerable garden or farm work. The intern can expect ample advice and assistance where needed, and can also expect his/her ideas to be taken seriously. Other Housing will be free of charge and provided by Dancing Rabbit. It may be a group housing situation in which the intern would receive a private bedroom and shared bathrooms and kitchens. Alternately, attractive camping sites are available during months of fair weather (May - September). Organic, vegan food will be provided by Dancing Rabbit and will also be in a cooperative situation. The intern may be asked to help with cooking and cleaning during his or her stay at Dancing Rabbit. Details may be discussed on an ad hoc basis. Unfortunately, Dancing Rabbit is not able to offer interns a stipend at this point. However, interns will have access to the same benefits as other Dancing Rabbit members, including tools, building materials, computer and Internet resources, travel to nearby cities, our extensive ecologically oriented library, and so forth. In addition, Dancing Rabbit may be able to assist interns with travel to and from the site. Procedure Contact Rachel Freifelder at 3936 Clarke St., Oakland CA 94609 before Jan 25, or at Dancing Rabbit thereafter (info in the letterhead). Questions or requests for more information are welcomed. If more convenient, prospective interns may arrange an interview to take place in Chicago, IL or Berkeley, CA that will help the intern and Dancing Rabbit assure that this position is right for both parties concerned. If this is desired, contact Jacob Stevens at 847-328-1187 or jasper@nwu.edu (Chicago) or Rachel Freifelder at 510-655-2936 or rachel@devnull.net (Berkeley). For detailed information on Dancing Rabbit, see http://www.dancingrabbit.org. From pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk Mon Dec 8 07:43:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27872; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:43:27 -0500 (EST) From: pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk Received: from csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (csunb0.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.2]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA19554; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from csirisa.leeds.ac.uk (csirisa.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.129]) by csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07050; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Received: from csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk by csirisa.leeds.ac.uk; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Message-Id: <17464.199712081212@csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk> To: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Plants For A Future Database Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 Hi, The Plants For A Future Database is now back online. The database has details of the Edible, Medicinal and Other uses of nearly 7000 useful plants. And contains details of growing conditions, scents, habitats and cultivars. As well as Latin and Common Names. You can find the database at two sites: http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html (UK) and http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/pfaf/D_search.html (US) You may have encountered this database before as the Plant-Tracker which unfortunately had to be withdrawn. Hope you enjoy using it Rich -- Plants For A Future http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Dec 8 11:37:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00764 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7] (may be forged)) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17473 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16471; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from csunb0.leeds.ac.uk ([129.11.144.2]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17873 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from csirisa.leeds.ac.uk (csirisa.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.129]) by csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07050; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Received: from csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk by csirisa.leeds.ac.uk; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Message-Id: <17464.199712081212@csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:12:26 GMT Reply-To: pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk To: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Plants For A Future Database X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Hi, The Plants For A Future Database is now back online. The database has details of the Edible, Medicinal and Other uses of nearly 7000 useful plants. And contains details of growing conditions, scents, habitats and cultivars. As well as Latin and Common Names. You can find the database at two sites: http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html (UK) and http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/pfaf/D_search.html (US) You may have encountered this database before as the Plant-Tracker which unfortunately had to be withdrawn. Hope you enjoy using it Rich -- Plants For A Future http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Dec 11 00:19:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA02898 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA16607 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08709; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07882 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA07302 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:09:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712110509.WAA07302@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:09:57 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Subscription instructions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7299.881816996.1@csf.Colorado.EDU> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 Hi everyone, A few people have had difficulty signing off this list. In brief, To unsubscribe, send a message to listproc@envirolink.org with the line unsub permaculture in the message body. To subscribe, send a message to the same address containing sub permaculture Your Name in the message body. Questions, requests for help, etc. can be sent to yount@csf.colorado.edu I use this account intermittently, so it may take a few days for me to respond. Thanks, Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Jan 4 03:04:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA05954 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA07738 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:03:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25649; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.magnet.at (mail.magnet.at [193.80.248.11]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25512 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [195.3.65.199] (WP12PORT07.highway.telekom.at [195.3.65.199]) by mail.magnet.at (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00462 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:59:27 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:28:36 +0100 Reply-To: lav@magnet.at Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Thilo Pfennig To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Fwd: Royal Paulownia Supply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: lav@pop.magnet.at X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 ------- Begin Forwarded Message ------- > >Subject: Royal Paulownia Supply >From: Jostnix >Newsgroups: bionet.agroforestry >Date: 1 Dec 1997 00:14:25 GMT > >I received a note from Robert Charles in New Zealand about Royal Paulownia. >This is the first request for marketing the tree I have seen. Looks like he >needs a source for buying the tree for packaging his product. > >He needs a high quality paulownia tree and can't find it in New Zeland. >He is >looking in the United States. His premium quality clothing products are all >packaged in paulownia wood boxes. > >He needs a relationship with a grower that can produce wood under these >requirements: > >1. Ongoing supply of Paulownia >2. Board dimentions: 500-2000mmX200-600mmX20-100cm >3. Ten years old >4. Knot free >5. Tight rings >6. Quantities of 50 cubic meters...... > >Contact at robert@robertcharles.co.nz > >More on Royal Paulownia at >http://forestry.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa081797.htm > > >Steve Nix, forestry guide >The Mining Company > > )( > ))}{(( > ))))}{(((( >))))))}{(((((( >``````) (_________John Stephen Nix >"Everybodys ignorant 'cept on different things" Will Rogers >Alabama Forestry Link...http://members.aol.com/jostnix/index.htm >http://forestry.miningco.com > -------- End Forwarded Message -------- Thilo Pfennig @ Projekt Leben, Art und Vielfalt ------------------------------------------------ Email: [PGP-key available!] Home: From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Jan 7 12:19:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25503 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19248 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19545; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from send1a.yahoomail.com (send1a.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.22]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18343 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [138.250.130.102] by send1a; Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:06:43 PST Message-Id: <19980107170643.19936.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:06:43 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: orizel3@yahoo.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: zoe little To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Is there anybody out there? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 Hello all, I am currently studying Environmental Management at Silsoe College near Bedford and am doing my treatise on Permaculture. I have my design and advanced design certificate which I obtained in Australia and so although I am versed in the principles I don't know many people to discuss/enthuse over them with. If there is anyone in the area who is either interested in Permaculture or has a permaculture plot that I could visit I would love to chat with them. I am also helping with the permaculture course at the college and so if at one point I could bring a small class(5-6 people)to visit as well that would be fab. I am also finding out about starting a local group. My treatise will be on 'Plant selection for a permaculture design' which will illustrate the importance of selection and how plant interactions affect all aspects of a design. Any help will be greatly appreciated and anyone who lives near here - please write, I'm drowning in a sea of agricultural madness!!!! Thanks lots zoe :-) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 10 13:52:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12369 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18654 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22673; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21703 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA11714 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:34:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801101834.LAA11714@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:34:01 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Mosquitoes and Bats In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 22:28:55 EST." <34B6EAF7.1D85@crest.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <11710.884457241.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Their web site says, "A single little brown bat can catch 600 mosquitoes in just one hour." Given that some bats act as pollinators, I wonder if anyone, in the vein of butterfly gardens, is keen on bat gardens. :) Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu :}Bat Conservation International: :} :}http://www.batcon.org/ :} :}michael totten :} From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 10 19:22:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20012 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11304 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26447; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from igcb.igc.org (igcb.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.46]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26312 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc3.igc.apc.org (igc3.igc.org [192.82.108.33]) by igcb.igc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23656; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp37.igc.org (sol3az@ppp37.igc.org) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16000; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:10:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980103214144.31afe12c@pop.igc.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:10:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: sol3az@igc.apc.org Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: David Fuller To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Mosquitoes and Bats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: sol3az@igc.org X-Sender: sol3az@pop.igc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 Just to further the mosquito discussion a little - I believe that humming birds also supplement their nectar diet by a little nutritional supplement of protein-rich gnats and such. So perhaps the mosquito-proof garden should be planted with attractors for these small wonders, as well as the bat-boxes, and possibly some eave-nest boxes for swallows. Sigh! What a nice place to enjoy a cool evening! At 11:34 AM 1/10/98 -0700, Michael Yount wrote: >Their web site says, >"A single little brown bat can catch 600 mosquitoes in just one hour." > >Given that some bats act as pollinators, I wonder if anyone, in >the vein of butterfly gardens, is keen on bat gardens. :) > >Michael >yount@csf.colorado.edu > > > :}Bat Conservation International: > :} > :}http://www.batcon.org/ > :} > :}michael totten > :} > > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Jan 11 11:39:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22330 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07221 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21270; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21162 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:22:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <26085796.34b8f373@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:29:38 EST Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Mosquitoes and Bats Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 In a message dated 1/10/98 1:50:31 PM, yount@csf.Colorado.EDU wrote: <> Hi Michael: I don't think that the pollinator bats and fruit bats eat mosquitoes. But maybe the pollinators are eating insects attracted to their diet or maybe they are strangely specialized "omni"vores. Anyone know for sure? Dan From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Jan 13 01:22:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22006 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA20564 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00976; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00159 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id XAA11898 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:08:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801130608.XAA11898@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:08:54 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Mosquitos and Bats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <11894.884671733.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 This wonderful message from Maddy Harland apparently didn't reach the list... Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:05:04 +0100 From: maddy@permaculture.co.uk (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine) Subject: Re: Mosquitoes and Bats >In a message dated 1/10/98 1:50:31 PM, yount@csf.Colorado.EDU wrote: > ><"A single little brown bat can catch 600 mosquitoes in just one hour." > >Given that some bats act as pollinators, I wonder if anyone, in >the vein of butterfly gardens, is keen on bat gardens. :) > >Michael >yount@csf.colorado.edu >>> Hi Michael We have a bat garden! (pippertrelles and horseshoes). It is a small microclimate. A square area, large native hedge to north (mostly beech and hawthorn), large flint sided buildings to east and south and and large evergreen tree and other shrubs to the west. It is a small front garden with a pond. The bats like the still shelter and the heat from the walls and roost in the eaves of both houses. They swoop in circles around the garden and pick insects out of the air (mostly midges around the tress and shrubs). We are about the change the garden, take out two tree, plant others, and grow mushrooms in the dark corner on logs, move the pond andmake it larger and plant more insect attracting plants for the bats (and martins who also like it there). Does anyone have any suggestions for plants? Obvious ones are sedums, golden rod and other temerate plants that are common in companion planting to attract insects. I would also think expanding the pond and having fairly shallow inlets would help (crenellated edges). Being plagued by cow-eating mosquitos is not a consideration in Britain as it is in the US where everything is supposedly bigger and better (!) and the midges are not a problem in southern England (unlike Scotland where midges can fly up a Scotman's kilt and lift him clean off the ground, as they digest unmentionable appendages). Enough, I am genuinely seeking suggestions for bat enhanced planting. Would love a few humming bird attractant plants but that isn't possible. Any offers, Ladies and gentleman? Maddy Maddy Harland, Editor, Permaculture Magazine Permanent Publications, Hyden House Ltd. The Sustainability Centre, East Meon, Hampshire GU32 1HR, England maddy@permaculture.co.uk Tel:+44(0)1730 823311. Fax:+44(0)1730 823322 The Permaculture Information Site & The Earth Repair Catalogue http://www.permaculture.co.uk "Permaculture - the Magazine that is planting seeds..." ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 17 14:22:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06214 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12064 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10561; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net (sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net [204.71.76.243]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10254 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from Garland (s16-pm33.snwestsac.campus.mci.net [208.155.133.95]) by sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12104 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801171853.KAA12104@sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: OFMA and some other issues and opinions (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 >Hello all... > >How about getting ourselves just organized enough that we can get a ball rolling?...not necessarily to 'fight' what is happening (they're going to do what they will for their own reasons no matter how ridiculous it is to us)... rather, to initiate a big educational push. Already this information is getting out to ever-increasing numbers of people. With Neptune soon moving into Aquarius to stay for 13 years, we have a wonderful opportunity to 'link up' our ideas and do things with joint intention and energy, utilizing this cyber-space we share and out-reaching to 'humanity' to make a difference in awareness. > >If some one of us will write a single page explanation of the threat to Organic food and we coin a new phrase that will carry us through to indicate what was formerly 'Organic', we can each take responsibility to send e-mails like crazy and get hard-copy printed information sheets to CSA's, health food stores, food co-ops, book stores, health clubs...LET PEOPLE KNOW and organize ourselves, new nomenclature and all. > >If we continue doing what we always have and call it something else agreed-upon it will still be what it is. A rose by any other name... Not sure how the certification for this new standard would be set-up..hhmm.. >Seems there should still be standards to insure we are getting GreenFood (or whatever it's called) > >And YES, a comprehensive letter we all could send, as Liz suggested, and have available for others concerned to use as well..Power in numbers?? Who feels equipped and ready to write it? > >Vicki > > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 17 15:53:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08709 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04510 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21738; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21128 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA21056 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:29:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801172029.NAA21056@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:29:52 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Details, details In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:33:04 EST." <199801171234_MC2-2F9E-F934@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <21053.885068991.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Leo Lionni wrote _Parallel Botany_, about two families of flora distinguished by their nonexistence. Perhaps it could provide insights into the proposed organic rules. Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu :} :}Ah, David, perhaps you are unaware of recent, great strides in political :}and scientific technique which have enabled our greatest scientists and :}leaders to manufacture entire conceptual structures from nothing more than :}thin air. As these techniques are refined, more and more useful (to :}Commerce) ideas can be produced from air far thinner than many of we :}lowlier life forms would even be able to survive in, much less retain our :}sanity. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Jan 20 23:44:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13094 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA04652 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23983; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.st.rim.or.jp (root@mail.st.rim.or.jp [202.255.181.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23457 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from rome (ppp506.st.rim.or.jp [202.247.132.106]) by mail.st.rim.or.jp (8.8.5/3.5Wpl7-rim2.0) with SMTP id NAA27043; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:27:04 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199801210427.NAA27043@mail.st.rim.or.jp> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:26:53 +0900 Reply-To: masa@toshikobo.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Masahiro Horiuchi To: Envirolink Perm List Subject: How can I join this list? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" X-Sender: masa@mail.st.rim.or.jp X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2-Jr1 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Please let me know how to join Permaculture list. Masahiro Horiuchi From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Jan 22 17:58:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15140 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA23946 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19336; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (root@batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.226]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18588 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (kateknol@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.203]) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id QAA31063 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:40:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (kateknol@localhost) by alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id QAA02930 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:40:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:40:32 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: kateknol@csd.uwm.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Kathryn A Knoll To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Pc design cert courses and work/internships in '98 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Hello, my name is Tom Knoll. I'm writing from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where I have been developing an organic-gardening program for inner-city kids in the past year. In the coming year, however, I hope to be certified in permaculture design and work or intern in the field imediately thereafter. I was hoping you might be able to provide a list of Pc design courses being offered in the US in '98, along with any information you might have regarding work or interships in the field. I hope to hear from you soon, thanks. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Jan 22 18:58:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15895 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA13932 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00984; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29947 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.205.131.38] (Pool-207-205-130-91.ATLN.grid.net [207.205.130.91]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26353 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:47:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:47:29 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: pcactivist@mindspring.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: pcactivist@mindspring.com (Peter Bane) To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Pc Design Courses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: pcactivist@pop.mindspring.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Tom Knoll wrote: >I have been developing an organic-gardening program for inner-city kids in >the past year. In the coming year, however, I hope to be certified in >permaculture design and work or intern in the field imediately thereafter. >I was hoping you might be able to provide a list of Pc design courses >being offered in the US in '98, along with any information you might have >regarding work or interships in the field. I hope to hear from you soon, >thanks. Permaculture Design Courses being offered in North America are listed in the pages of The Permaculture Activist magazine. While we are working on setting up a web site where calendar listings can be browsed, at present this information is only available in hard copy. You can obtain a copy of current event listings by sending $2 and SASE to: Permaculture Activist PO Box 1209 Black Mountain NC 28711 Please don't ask us to provide this information by email. We're not set up for it yet and as a small operation, demands of that kind unaccompanied by money would have to be ignored. Peter Bane Publisher From askpv@ozemail.com.au Fri Jan 23 20:56:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05215 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20380 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from passion (slwol2p33.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.121]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27414; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:53:39 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: "April Sampson-Kelly" From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: , , "permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu" , Subject: de-worming chemical in domestic animal manure Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:53:44 +1100 Message-ID: <01bd286a$e6d67260$LocalHost@passion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Can anyone offer qualified advice on breakdown rates and methods for manures that contain agricultural de-worming chemicals. Some permaculture students have access to the manure but want to ensure its safety. The manure is a vital addition for students in arid lands where organic matter is as rare as gold. April ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC LC Permaculture Visions leaders in permaculture learning by correspondence askpv@ozemail.com.au sampsms@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Jan 23 21:07:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05299 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24027 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24694; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24223; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from passion (slwol2p33.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.121]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27414; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:53:39 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <01bd286a$e6d67260$LocalHost@passion> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:53:44 +1100 Reply-To: "April Sampson-Kelly" Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: , , "permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu" , Subject: de-worming chemical in domestic animal manure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 Can anyone offer qualified advice on breakdown rates and methods for manures that contain agricultural de-worming chemicals. Some permaculture students have access to the manure but want to ensure its safety. The manure is a vital addition for students in arid lands where organic matter is as rare as gold. April ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC LC Permaculture Visions leaders in permaculture learning by correspondence askpv@ozemail.com.au sampsms@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 24 09:01:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13587 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08963 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07045; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail2.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.193]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06597 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialup-013.ennis.iol.ie [194.125.45.77]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26188; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:51:31 GMT Message-Id: <199801241351.NAA26188@mail.iol.ie> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:38:56 -0000 Reply-To: burrenag@iol.ie Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" To: "April Sampson-Kelly" , , "permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu" Subject: Re: de-worming chemical in domestic animal manure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 April, The agri-environmental specifications for management in Special Areas of Conservation (i.e. protected sites) under the Irish Rural Environment Protection Scheme (voluntary EU scheme) state that it is prohibited to graze livestock treated within the previous week with pesticides which leave persistent residues in the dung. On what type of consideration this is exactly based and whether a safety margin is included I don't know. Sorry that I can't be of more help. Ute ---------- > From: April Sampson-Kelly > To: permaculture@envirolink.org; permanet@sunsite.unc.edu; permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu ; owner-permaculture@envirolink.org > Subject: de-worming chemical in domestic animal manure > Date: 24 January 1998 01:53 > > Can anyone offer qualified advice on breakdown rates and methods > for manures that contain agricultural de-worming chemicals. > Some permaculture students have access to the manure but want to ensure its > safety. > The manure is a vital addition for students in arid lands where organic > matter > is as rare as gold. > April > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > April Sampson-Kelly ADPA,BCA,MCA,GradSci,PDC > LC Permaculture Visions > leaders in permaculture learning by correspondence > askpv@ozemail.com.au > sampsms@ozemail.com.au > http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv > GOOD PLANETS ARE HARD TO FIND > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 3 08:53:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19325 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25990 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07897; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:36:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from correos.seker.es (qmailr@correos.seker.es [194.179.87.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06900 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3953 invoked from network); 3 Feb 1998 14:15:27 -0000 Received: from seker.es (194.179.87.2) by correos.seker.es with SMTP; 3 Feb 1998 14:15:27 -0000 Received: from inf113.seker.es [194.179.87.176] by seker.es with ESMTP (Mail Server 5.6); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:17:28 +0100 Message-Id: <34D70B2B.674@seker.es> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:18:51 +0200 Reply-To: torrents@seker.es Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Tomas Torrents To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: sub permacultures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-URL: http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/Links.html#NEWS X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA06904 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 helo: Visiting the permacultures magazine (UK) web, I find your adress of a permaculture mailing list. We are working on Spain on natural treatment for waste water, and we satrts o spring 96 to publish a little magazin about permaculture from Sinergia (association for the study and diffusion of PC). We will be thanksfull to recive braint new informations abot waht is cominig on this cicles on the world. (Do you know if it is any mail list on spanish? or in your maillist iare contactng sapnishspeakers people, that will relly facilitate owr work) Thanks for your attention, we wish to hear about you soon Sincerelly Albert Torrents Associació Sinèrgia From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 3 21:52:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05101 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA27171 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16974; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15830 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04828 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA05023 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:36:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:36:05 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: USDA-CREES Small Farm Resource Guide (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:42:13 GMT From: Small Farm Owner We have nearly completed compiling the 1998 "Small Farm Resource Guide." This guide will augment the resources available to small farmers and people that work with the small farm community. We need your To: Multiple Recipients of the List ORGANIZATIONS, SMALL FARM RELATED WEBSITES, PUBLICATIONS, VIDEOTAPES, with information relevant to small farms and other materials that can enhance the economic viability and quality of life within the small farm community. If you have any information you would like to submit, please send it by e-mail to: sfp@reeusda.gov or fax it to 202-401-5179 on or before FEBRUARY 13, 1998. If you have already sent your information to us, you do not need to resubmit. We have already compiled about 160 pages of information, but we can expand the guide if you have any additional information, you would like us to consider. We especially need to make sure our list of small farm organizations is complete. Some examples of the kinds of organizations that we want to include are: Land Loss Prevention Project, New England Small Farm Institute, Small Farm Today, Federation of Southern Cooperatives, Rural Coalition, Arkansas Land and Farm Dev. Corp, the Small Farm Programs at the land grant institutions, other universities, and other public and private sectors. If you have suggestions, please let us know. We also want to list organizations that are not specifically small farm organizations but have grants/beginning farmer programs or information to offer the small farm community. Examples include: Center for Rural Affairs, Farm Foundation, W. K. Kellogg Foundation, SARE, the National Agricultural Library, Pennsylvania Farm Link, ATTRA, Missouri Alternatives Center, The Leopold Center, Metro-Farm, Organic Associations, State Departments of Agriculture, and others. When the guide is completed in late February, it will be posted on our website at: http://www.reeusda.gov/smallfarm. It will also be available in hardcopy. If you would like to receive a hardcopy at no cost, please send your name and mailing address to: sfp@reeusda.gov Example of format to be submitted: PROGRAM DESCRIPTION: Please send name, address, fax, e-mail, and website address of the organization. Write a description of 100 words or less of the types of programs and services that are available through this organization-- i.e. farm management modules, marketing strategies, grants available, beginning farmer programs and others. PUBLICATIONS: Please send name of publication, order number, price, and where it can be obtained. VIDEOTAPES: Please send name of video, order number, price, and where it can be obtained. SMALL FARM WEBSITES: Please send the website addresses of small farm organizations, small acreage, vegetable garden, etc to: sfp@reeusda.gov or by fax to 202-401-5179 Please accept my apology for this lengthy message. If you have any questions, I can be reached by calling: 202-401-4385 Thanks! Denis Ebodaghe National Program Leader Small Farms USDA-CSREES Phone:202-401-4385 Fax: 202-401-5179 E-mail: debodaghe@reeusda.gov -- To Subscribe Send a message to -- majordomo@reeusda.gov In the body, type -- subscribe smallfarm To Unsubscribe Send a message to -- majordomo@reeusda.gov In the body, type -- unsubscribe smallfarm From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 11 16:17:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02348 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12446 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21780; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.cc.ukans.edu (carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20849 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by eagle.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id PAA0000005888; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:03:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:03:26 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: HARTER To: permaculture list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Hello Can anyone explain to me how permaculture differs from sustainable agriculture. Are they the same thing? I know there are ag. scientists and horticulture scientists in universities researching sustainability of crops and the success of sustainable farm systems, how does permaculture fit into academia and current research? Carly From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 11 23:41:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09077 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA23864 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24723; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mail.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24206 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from Milogic@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id BBIKa17132; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:28:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6f46dff3.34e27a74@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:28:34 EST Reply-To: Milogic@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Milogic@aol.com To: carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: "sustainable" v. permaculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 Carly, Sure, got a few weeks? "Sustainable agriculture," as taught by any educational institution that I have yet to hear about, is a present day oxymoron or two buzzwords linked together. Any monocropped system run by machinery, sustained by chemicals and worked by fewer and fewer people is, by definition, unsustainable if the fossil fuels, pertrochemicals and transportation economics are factored in. Monocropping, per se, devalues land and soil and people. We are hooked on it. It is sort of like a junkie who has gone off heroin and onto crack or speed. "Permaculture" which is locally focused, polyculture emphasizing ordering of natural systems organized to meet the needs of all creation within it, may be sustainable or at least come nearer to approximations thereof. Probably not as profitable to corporations, though, unless they succeed in irradiating permaculture, co-opting and pre-empting it as "sustainable" has been. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Feb 16 11:43:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29369 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23559 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12691; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.nwlink.com (alabama.nwlink.com [209.20.130.40]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12215 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.20.140.58] ([209.20.140.58]) by mail.nwlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12273 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:34:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:34:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: bentley@nwlink.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: annette bentley To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: PERMACULTURE digest 147 In-Reply-To: <199802140503.AAA28752@envirolink.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: bentley@mail.nwlink.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 Could I please get an address or phone # for Chase Organic Seeds? annette bentley bentley@nwlink.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Feb 16 15:59:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10029 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09734 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27923; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27160 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialup-005.ennis.iol.ie [194.125.45.69]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03042; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:46:22 GMT Message-Id: <199802162046.UAA03042@mail.iol.ie> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:45:45 -0000 Reply-To: burrenag@iol.ie Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" To: , Subject: Re: Chase Organics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 Chase Organics The Organic Gardening Catalogue River Dene Estate Molesey Rd Hersham Surrey KT12 4RG Tel. 01932-253666 Spring is in the air... ---------- > From: annette bentley > To: permaculture@envirolink.org > Subject: Re: PERMACULTURE digest 147 > Date: 16 February 1998 16:34 > > Could I please get an address or phone # for Chase Organic Seeds? > > annette bentley > bentley@nwlink.com > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 17 02:20:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28621 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA03182 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA14801; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13823 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA26280 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:05:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802170705.AAA26280@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:05:24 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: owner apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <26277.887699124.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 Hi all, The potato spam we all received today was due to ignorance on my part. This discussion group was configured to allow people who aren't subscribed to send messages to everyone here. I've changed that, so now only subscribed people can contribute. This may not stop the unsolicited mail, but we do have other options if it continues. Please accept my apology for this annoyance. Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 17 03:01:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA29901 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 03:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA10665 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21481; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20568 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA27035 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:51:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802170751.AAA27035@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:51:32 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <27032.887701891.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:40:20 -0800 To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org From: Michael Murphy Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides As everyone knows, Noorthern California is Mudslideville. Here's my question: will swales reduce/prevent mudslides? Obviously, they stop erosion by slowing water and putting it into the dirt - but when the dirt is saturated, we get mudslides. If I could make a coherent argument to FEMA/SBA, I think we could get a major loan program (4%, 30 years) to build swales everywhere. I was in this program after the '82 floods and they are very loose about flood damage/damage prevention IF the landowner can make a coherent argument. So - any evidence to support the hypothesis? Thanks. ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 17 12:54:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01245 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25046 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28724; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26171; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id GKWNa16668; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:35:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6cbe05e9.34e9ca73@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:35:44 EST Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Advanced Permaculture Design Training in August Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA26229 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 ADVANCED PERMACULTURE DESIGN TRAINING IN PARAGUAY Permaculture design course graduates have an opportunity for advanced permaculture design experience in Paraguay this August. Dan and Cynthia Hemenway, editors and publishers of The International Permaculture Solutions Journal, will produce a permaculture predesign Aug. 10 through 20, 1998, near Guarambarè. We have openings for up to three advanced design students to serve as design apprentices. Apprentices will participate in site evaluation, research, and design formulation. The predesign is expected to form the basis of a certificate design course at the site in 1999. The design site is a medium-sized farm operated by a couple in a remote part of the country. The design will address both subsistence production to meet the immediate needs of the family and cash income production. Applicants for this program should have a valid permaculture design course certificate. Proficiency in Spanish, and/or Guarani, will be an advantage. For information on tuition and the program design, contact Dan Hemenway at the address below. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com Internships available. We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 17 13:58:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04465 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13996 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12899; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc7.igc.org (igc7.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11132 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc3.igc.apc.org (igc3.igc.org [192.82.108.33]) by igc7.igc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16668; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp24.igc.org (sol3az@ppp24.igc.org) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12746; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:01:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980123153515.0937853c@pop.igc.org> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:01:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: sol3az@igc.apc.org Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: David Fuller To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: sol3az@pop.igc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Great idea.. I have questions, though, based on my confessed ignorance of the issue! What is the relationship between slope angle and the effectiveness of swales? (Of course they become dams at the extreme end of the continuum). Is there a confirmed relationship between slope and frequency/ spacing of swales and the sheet water flow? David Fuller. At 12:51 AM 2/17/98 -0700, Michael Yount wrote: >------- Forwarded Message >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:40:20 -0800 >To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org >From: Michael Murphy >Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides > >As everyone knows, Noorthern California is Mudslideville. Here's my >question: will swales reduce/prevent mudslides? Obviously, they stop >erosion by slowing water and putting it into the dirt - but when the dirt >is saturated, we get mudslides. If I could make a coherent argument to >FEMA/SBA, I think we could get a major loan program (4%, 30 years) to build >swales everywhere. I was in this program after the '82 floods and they are >very loose about flood damage/damage prevention IF the landowner can make a >coherent argument. So - any evidence to support the hypothesis? Thanks. > > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 17 16:29:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12534 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17807 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15040; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipgate.dbc.com (IP9-201.DBC.COM [199.217.9.201]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14665 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from lmdavidson (199.217.10.10) by ipgate.dbc.com (MX V5.0) with SMTP; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:17:27 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980217211818.008f92dc@pop.batnet.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:18:18 -0800 Reply-To: loren@wombat.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Loren Davidson To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: beauty@pop.batnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 At 10:01 AM 2/17/98 -0800, David Fuller wrote: >What is the relationship between slope angle and the effectiveness of >swales? (Of course they become dams at the extreme end of the continuum). I think a lot depends on how one defines "effectiveness". A lot also depends on the vegetation on the slope in question and the underlying soil type. Undisturbed forests don't need swales, really, regardless of the slope. Introducing swales under these circumstances can increase erosion rather than decreasing it. The interval between swales will depend on slope, rainfall totals and soil types, and will be different for different locations. One good way to figure out where a second or third swale in a series should go is to go stand out in the rain during a heavy downpour and see where the water starts sheeting across your land below the first swale. >At 12:51 AM 2/17/98 -0700, Michael Yount wrote: >>------- Forwarded Message >>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:40:20 -0800 >>To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org >>From: Michael Murphy >>Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides >> >>As everyone knows, Noorthern California is Mudslideville. Here's my >>question: will swales reduce/prevent mudslides? Again, it depends on the slope and on the composition of the underlying soil. If your soil is relatively undisturbed and hasn't been regraded to something steeper than the natural angle of repose (which is the angle at which it will stop sliding, usually), I don't believe you'll have additional problems by adding swales. The "angle of repose" is different for different types of soils. Personally, I wouldn't try much in the way of swales at ground angles above 30%, but others may know circumstances under which this could be done successfully. IMO, the place to implement swales is well above where you might need them. In other words, if you have a potentially unstable slope near the bottom of your property, go well uphill of it to build your swales. Also, my understanding is that swales should almost *never* be implemented without also planting trees along them. The trees serve multiple functions, of course: The roots help stabilize the slope, lowering the chance of slippage, they eventually shade the swale, reducing evapotranspiration from it, and they use the water that the swale has stored, lowering the water table and water content of the soil again. So if you implement swales with trees, bushes and other appropriate plantings, you should be able to minimize the effects of additional soil saturation. >> If I could make a coherent argument to >>FEMA/SBA, I think we could get a major loan program (4%, 30 years) to build >>swales everywhere. I was in this program after the '82 floods and they are >>very loose about flood damage/damage prevention IF the landowner can make a >>coherent argument. So - any evidence to support the hypothesis? Thanks. In some parts of Northern California, including the Russian River watershed, there are funds available through the soil conservation folks for anything that can reduce erosion and flooding in those areas. My source tells me that you can get up to 75% of your actual costs paid for for a good project, including the cost(s) of planting the swales after you cut them. Look up the local office of the Soil Conservation Service in the phone book. You might also consider a full Keyline project including a series of ponds as a way of storing some of this water for use during the dry seasons, with the same justification. You will not only get erosion control, you'll get irrigation water for the dry months. Loren -- Loren Davidson loren@wombat.net http://www.batnet.com/beauty/ "Follow your dreams. Make your wishes. Create the future. And above all, believe in yourself." -- J. Michael Straczynski From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 18 01:47:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA14134 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA19477 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13855; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13673 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id XAA11468 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:42:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802180642.XAA11468@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:42:00 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <11465.887784120.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 ------- Forwarded Message - --------- From: YankeePerm@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:39:27 EST To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU In a message dated 2/17/98 7:59:57 AM, you wrote: <> It depends. If the swales enable deep rooted plants to establish because they retain moisture, they should reduce mudslides. However if they become extra- concentrated zones of water and water-saturated soil, they could hasten mudslides. Swales are often regarded as a panacea which they are not. As a major change in the surface of the Earth, they require careful design integrated with all other design factors. Repeat, integrated with all other design factors. Swales by themselves have potential for harm that is amplified by the extent of the swale, the steepness of grade, and the amount of catchment above them. Swales are obviously not an end, but one tool. We need to look, on a site- specific basis, at the SOURCE of the water, getting as high on the landscape as possible, and then evaluate the best means of control. If we control water working from the top down, we don't end up with more water than we can handle at any point on the slope. Because swales represent a great deal of disturbance, we restrict their use on sensitive sites where little disturbance of other kinds is anticipated. Where major disturbance is anticipated, such as a housing project or a road, then swales may be one of the compensatory measures attempted. At some point we have to say, we can't help you because you have chosen to live where you will slide away no matter what we do. Basically, the definition of a type 1 error is that expenditure of reasonable amounts of energy can't fix it and the situation constitutes persistent danger or continuous work. In general, I would look to stablising subsidance prone slopes with appropriate vegitation. In the philippines, for example, they have a pine tree with a extremely long tap root that pins the soil to the mountain, with very strong lateral roots radiating out ever half meter or so improving the hold. They cut these trees and they get subsidance. So I would start studying root structure of native trees, come up with a good mix of those adapted to the site, and lay in bands on contours. These can be watered with very small "swales" or catchment diversions on contour which feed a basin where the tree is planted. The "mix" may be in time, with accelerated succession to more fire resistant species coming up through the original planting as understory. While this would work in most cases, you will find that real estate people will resist to the deaththe idea of "wasting" all that space with forested bands. However if done, not only would the soil be anchored as well as is possible, but the bands of trees if covering a large enough area, would soften weather to some extent by pulling in more moisture during dry periods and reducing the severity of many (but probably not all) "bad" storms. Anyone who has practiced permaculture for any length of time knows, however, that biological solutions are known. The problem is always land ownership/tenure patterns and territorial irrationality. California mud slides are evidence for natural selection. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA. Internships available. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 18 02:05:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA15858 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22774 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15151; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14086 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id XAA11658 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:44:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802180644.XAA11658@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:44:06 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@envirolink.org Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <11654.887784245.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 ------- Forwarded Message - --------- From: Jeff Jacobsen Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:23:22 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Yount Michael, I would think the swales would need to capture the water away from the slopes. For example, you would probably never think to put a swale at the edge of a bluff. But if a swale could catch the water before it got near the edge of the bluff it could reduce the amount of water weight at the edge of the bluff were it could do damage. To be effective the swales must capture the water and hold it where it won't do any damage. Cheers, Jeff J jjj@otter.wsipc.wednet.edu On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Michael Yount wrote: > ------- Forwarded Message > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:40:20 -0800 > To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org > From: Michael Murphy > Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides > > As everyone knows, Noorthern California is Mudslideville. Here's my > question: will swales reduce/prevent mudslides? Obviously, they stop > erosion by slowing water and putting it into the dirt - but when the dirt > is saturated, we get mudslides. If I could make a coherent argument to > FEMA/SBA, I think we could get a major loan program (4%, 30 years) to build > swales everywhere. I was in this program after the '82 floods and they are > very loose about flood damage/damage prevention IF the landowner can make a > coherent argument. So - any evidence to support the hypothesis? Thanks. > > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 18 02:06:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA15868 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22797 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15186; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA15006 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id XAA12267 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:51:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802180651.XAA12267@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:51:22 -0700 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Do you LOVE forwarding other people's messages... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-unknown" Content-ID: <12261.887784682.1@csf> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id BAA15007 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 ------- Forwarded Message - --------- From: Andy Richker Subject: Re: Re: Do you LOVE gardening and cant wait to... (UPDATED) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:01:23 -0600 To: Michael Yount Huh?? Does anybody have a problem with this post or is it just me? >Do you LOVE gardening and canÌt wait to get outside and mess around in the >dirt? . . >. If so, do you plant potatoes? >Chances are you do. Then why not pay a visit to a brand new website >dedicated to our >many of your oldtime favorites as well as the latest in technological >spuds >. Technological doesn't sound too appealing or appropriate to this list. >from disease free potato plant tissue which is multiplied in our state of >the art laboratory. >This process is called micropropagation Ç and involves growing the plants >:}>in test tubes. >These plants are then transplanted into our modern greenhouses for the >production >of mini-tubers. Watering, fertilizing, and pest control are monitored >closely throughout >the growing season to give you, the customer, the premium product you >want >and >deserve. I don't know too much about potatoe growing but this doesn't sound so kosher to me. Available to the public for the first time - the patented NewLeaf potatoes from NatureMark. These potatoes are like any other potato; but they have a built-in protein from nature built in protein?? Is this so smart? to protect themselves from the dreaded potato beetle. This eliminates the need to apply insecticides Ç a concern every American has about the foods they eat. This is a product of biotechnology. And the good news is it has no effect on the environment. OH this is sounding like a sales job now, biotechnology and environment. Everything affects the environment. Any other comments or please tell me if I am out of line here. Maybe these folks took a biotechnology Permaculture Course??! I don't know?? Andy ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 18 13:20:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15503 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA27489 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21625; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20636 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14069 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA26609 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:01:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:01:48 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: naturemark potatoes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org [They SPAMMED this list too] It was typical SPAM, in fact about 15 of them. Their loss. I wouldn't buy their products if potatoes were going extinct. Looks like they would know better than to compile commercial mailing lists with subscribers in credible discussion forums they lurk in. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Feb 19 09:15:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09242 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20499 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03595; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mail.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02906; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id CTNEa04925; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:04:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6ebab31f.34ec3beb@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:04:25 EST Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: sol3az@igc.apc.org, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Swales & Mudslides (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 In a message dated 2/17/98 1:52:33 PM, sol3az@igc.apc.org wrote: <> In a message dated 2/17/98 1:52:33 PM, you wrote: <> this would also depend on soil type, rainfall (particularly extreme rainfall), and vegetation type. In short, you have to figure it out from working on the site, starting at the top and working down. The original land form with original vegetation must have handled most of the runoff previous to settlement by environmentally destructive peoples or the soil would be gone already (except maybe in recent uplifts and volcanic mountains/islands). For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Advanced training in Paraguay this August. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA. Internships available. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 24 10:41:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12181 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12313 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15472; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cube.ice.net (root@cube.ice.net [206.102.146.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13866 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from nehring.ice.net (slip219.ice.net [206.102.146.219]) by cube.ice.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20129 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:23:41 -0600 Message-Id: <34F2E5CA.B3B4104E@ice.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:22:50 -0600 Reply-To: nehring@ice.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: curtis & nanny nehring bliss To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: source for comfrey seeds? References: <199802180644.XAA11658@csf.Colorado.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 hi all....... just wondering if anyone knows where i might get hold of some comfrey seeds... comfrey is referenced many times in permaculture/biodynamic literature as making a great mulch & fertilizer tea, but i'm amazed at how difficult it's been for me to track down. any suggestions? thanks muchos ....nanny nehring@ice.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 25 06:08:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA23588 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA01081 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08485; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (teapot06.bigpond.com [139.134.5.237]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA07572 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ME-A02-pool-163.tmns.net.au (ME-A02-pool-163.tmns.net.au [139.134.57.163]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id xa253341 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:54:50 +1100 Message-Id: <11545009383020@onaustralia.com.au> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:01:46 +1100 Reply-To: mandmkau@bigpond.com.au Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "MAX KAU" To: Subject: Fw: source for comfrey seeds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 ---------- > From: MAX KAU > To: nehring@ice.net > Subject: Re: source for comfrey seeds? > Date: Tuesday, 24 February 1998 5:56 > > Dear Nanny > > I have been in contact with a fellow member of the seed curator's > association in Australia who tells me that comfrey seeds are a very rare > animal indeed. In fact he has not seen a comfrey seed for a long time. He > says that comfrey grows from roots and cuttings. If you want more > information, how about you contact Neil Padbury of RMB 6471 Wodonga > Victoria Australia 3691. He is not on E-mail but is on the telephone in > Australia at (02) 6027 1824. He suggest that you write and he will tell you > all he knows about comfrey. > > Good luck > > Max Kau > mandmkau@bigpond.com.au > > ---------- > > From: curtis & nanny nehring bliss > > To: permaculture@envirolink.org > > Subject: source for comfrey seeds? > > Date: Wednesday, 25 February 1998 2:22 > > > > hi all....... > > > > just wondering if anyone knows where i might get hold of some comfrey > > seeds... > > comfrey is referenced many times in permaculture/biodynamic literature > > as making a great mulch & fertilizer tea, but i'm amazed at how > > difficult it's been for me to track down. > > > > any suggestions? > > > > thanks muchos > > ....nanny > > > > nehring@ice.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 25 09:21:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01068 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06128 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25439; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24756; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 8LCLa29902; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:10:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:10:45 EST Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: mandmkau@bigpond.com.au, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Fw: source for comfrey seeds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 In a message dated 2/25/98 6:03:17 AM, mandmkau@bigpond.com.au wrote: <<> Dear Nanny > > I have been in contact with a fellow member of the seed curator's > association in Australia who tells me that comfrey seeds are a very rare > animal indeed. In fact he has not seen a comfrey seed for a long time. He > says that comfrey grows from roots and cuttings. If you want more > information, how about you contact Neil Padbury of RMB 6471 Wodonga > Victoria Australia 3691. He is not on E-mail but is on the telephone in > Australia at (02) 6027 1824. He suggest that you write and he will tell you > all he knows about comfrey. > > Good luck > > Max Kau > mandmkau@bigpond.com.au > >> Richters carries them in their widely distributed catalog. They can't be that rare. Dan Hemenway From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 25 13:50:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11568 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16083 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09827; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail2.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.193]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09241 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialup-011.ennis.iol.ie [194.125.45.75]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20007 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:40:15 GMT Message-Id: <199802251840.SAA20007@mail.iol.ie> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:42:35 -0000 Reply-To: burrenag@iol.ie Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael Miller & Ute Bohnsack" To: Subject: Re: source for comfrey seeds? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 Dear all, Cuttings seem a bit odd but in any case it is *very* easy to grow comfrey from pieces of roots. You can divide a big plant into many small ones in the winter or spring. Growing them from seed is an option but takes a lot longer. I'd try to find someone who has comfrey plants and ask for some roots, plant those in rich ground and divide the plants further in the next year and the next and the next........ It's a wonderful plant, alright. I recycle chicken dung onto their ground during the winter and have huge plants all summer which I cut 2-3 times for mulch and comfrey water and also give young shoots to our goats. UteB ---------- > From: MAX KAU > To: permaculture@envirolink.org > Subject: Fw: source for comfrey seeds? > Date: 24 February 1998 07:01 > > > > ---------- > > From: MAX KAU > > To: nehring@ice.net > > Subject: Re: source for comfrey seeds? > > Date: Tuesday, 24 February 1998 5:56 > > > > Dear Nanny > > > > I have been in contact with a fellow member of the seed curator's > > association in Australia who tells me that comfrey seeds are a very rare > > animal indeed. In fact he has not seen a comfrey seed for a long time. He > > says that comfrey grows from roots and cuttings. If you want more > > information, how about you contact Neil Padbury of RMB 6471 Wodonga > > Victoria Australia 3691. He is not on E-mail but is on the telephone in > > Australia at (02) 6027 1824. He suggest that you write and he will tell > you > > all he knows about comfrey. > > > > Good luck > > > > Max Kau > > mandmkau@bigpond.com.au > > > > ---------- > > > From: curtis & nanny nehring bliss > > > To: permaculture@envirolink.org > > > Subject: source for comfrey seeds? > > > Date: Wednesday, 25 February 1998 2:22 > > > > > > hi all....... > > > > > > just wondering if anyone knows where i might get hold of some comfrey > > > seeds... > > > comfrey is referenced many times in permaculture/biodynamic literature > > > as making a great mulch & fertilizer tea, but i'm amazed at how > > > difficult it's been for me to track down. > > > > > > any suggestions? > > > > > > thanks muchos > > > ....nanny > > > > > > nehring@ice.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Feb 26 11:22:25 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25140 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12118; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11772; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id TQYRa27488; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:08:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:08:31 EST Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: burrenag@iol.ie, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: source for comfrey seeds? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 In a message dated 2/25/98 1:45:27 PM, burrenag@iol.ie wrote: <> Yes, the standard way to propagate comfrey is to run over it a few times with a rototiller. You will get thousands of plants from one medium-sized comfrey. Cuttings DO work, by the way, if you use the stem that carries the flowers. The leaf petioles do not work. And every piece of root tries to become a new clone, as noted. It is a great bumble bee plant. We like to plant it 6 - 8 inches outside the poultry netting so the chickens can reach through and grab a bit while 3/4 of the plant is unaffected and available for use in other ways. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next live program: Advanced Design Training in Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA. Internships available. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Feb 28 10:02:33 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09411 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05246; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cube.ice.net (root@cube.ice.net [206.102.146.5]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03386 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from nehring.ice.net (slip191.ice.net [206.102.146.191]) by cube.ice.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00482 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:43:36 -0600 Message-Id: <34F8225F.855CC67D@ice.net> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:42:39 -0600 Reply-To: nehring@ice.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: curtis & nanny nehring bliss To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: thanks.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 thanks everybody for the [prompt!] information and ensuing conversation surrounding the nature of the comfrey plant... i've learned much [as surely others have] n'will establish a patch soon .........nanny From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Mar 15 00:09:36 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08831 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03134; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:54:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02592 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 23:18:10 +0000 Message-Id: <5100229.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 98 23:15:03 CDT Reply-To: XINCLXpermaculture-mg@txinfinet.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: XINCLXpermaculture-mg@txinfinet.com (permaculture-mg Conference @ txinfinet.com) To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re(2): Roundup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 jackrowe@compuserve.com writes: In accordance with a general trend of the last 10 - 15 years, Monsanto Chemical Co. (maker of Roundup herbicide) is a major owner of seed companies and breeding programs. Monsanto came out in the last year or so with a cotton variety which is designed to work in conjunction with Roundup. Weeds are becoming immune to herbicides at current application rates, just as pests are becoming immune to pesticides. Roundup proudly advertises that its new cotton can be dosed with twice the previously-tolerated levels of Roundup, so that instead of using your head to deal with herbicide-tolerant weeds, you can just use twice as much Roundup! Interesting thing that I've heard about Roundup-Ready cotton: growers have been experiencing major losses in the form of cotton bolls falling off before they're ready for picking. Of course, this cotton was one of their genetically engineered "wonder products". I don't have the reference handy on the problems farmers have had with it, but try Steve Sprinkel at sprinkraft@aol.com or Judy Kew at judy_kew@greenbuilder.com. They're both quite involved in the anti-genetic engineered foods world. I'm sure they'd be able to point you at a reference or five. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Mar 29 23:55:05 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19199 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08047; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07074 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from SueCasson@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 2DDMa04939 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:42:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <8c186cf6.351f22c1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:42:39 EST Reply-To: SueCasson@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Sue Casson To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: help on this one too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 I would like help getting off this list for a while. I will be out of town for a month. Also would like to know how to get back on again. Sue suecasson@aol.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat May 2 14:10:48 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22316 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 14:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24959; Sat, 2 May 1998 14:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.cc.ukans.edu (carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24573 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by eagle.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id MAA0000026993; Sat, 2 May 1998 12:58:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:58:26 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: HARTER To: Fiction List , Bill Mccowatt , permaculture list , sehgargen@aol.com Subject: Don't Eat Orange Roughy (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:32:35 -0700 From: Keith Johnson Subject: Don't Eat Orange Roughy Hi, I'm sending this note to everyone on my mailing list. I was stunned when I read it. I got the news from SANET, the Sustainable Ag Mailing list. Their address for subscribing follows this article. Keith Johnson Saturday night, April 25, 1998, while attending the National Ocean Sciences Bowl (see http://core.cast.msstate.edu/NOSBtop.html ) I heard Dr. Clyde Roper, world famous oceanographer (you may have seen him on National Geographic - Search for Giant Squid). He told of something that was blood-freezing. If you have ever eaten the fish called Orange Roughy, READ THIS. Orange Roughy are found in very pure populations within forests of certain types of tree coral. The exact age of the coral isn't known, but comparisons with related species of similar size put the ages of the coral where the orange roughy dwell at around 1,200 to 2,000 years. In order to catch the fish, fishermen first have to drag the nets through to clear-cut the coral trees. Once done, nearly pure catches of orange roughy can be taken - THE FIRST YEAR. The second year, the catch is smaller, but still cost-effective. After that, there aren't enough Roughy left to be worth catching and the process has to be repeated elsewhere. Oh yes, it is believed that the Roughy are a very slow maturing, long-lived fish and may take 100 to 130 YEARS to reach REPRODUCTIVE age!!!!. PLEASE PASS THIS INFORMATION ALONG TO ANY PLACE THAT MIGHT BUY OR USE ORANGE ROUGHY, AND TO ANY POSTING SITE THAT WILL HELP ALERT MORE PEOPLE. If EVER there was a case of NON-sustainable agriculture (aquaculture, in this case), This is IT. To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with "unsubscribe sanet-mg". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". In addition: I confirmed this information with Dr. Daphne Fautine, marine biologist at KU. Orange Roughy are deep sea and like many deep sea animals, reproductive maturity is not reached untill an average of 30 years, making them extemely vulnerable and sensitive to commercial fishing. In addition the size difference between a fish of reproductive and non-reproductive age is so small that there is no means of distinquishing between the two when net fishing. Carly From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun May 3 22:38:56 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16297 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28494; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.it.luc.edu (root@orion.it.luc.edu [147.126.240.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27057 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsdiala05.ls.luc.edu (lsdiala05.ls.luc.edu [147.126.8.105]) by orion.it.luc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA74206 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:19:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199805040219.VAA74206@orion.it.luc.edu> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Biodiversity and Permaculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 (I apologize if you are receiving this message a second time, but I am not sure it made it through the first time I sent it.) Hello! I am a radical organizer in Chicago, and I am interested in finding information on the relationship of biodiversity/conservation biology to the practice and theory of permaculture. Of particular interest are the aspects of biodiversity that are valued or disvalued in permaculture. Do you know of any electronic or print media that I could access? Also, do you have any Chicago area contacts or resources on this issue? Where would I go to get permaculture literature locally? Thanks! Any leads that you could provide would be helpful. James Mumm jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon May 4 17:22:39 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16668 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21382; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19112; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id DHXLa02448; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:51:45 EDT Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl To: jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Biodiversity and Permaculture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 In a message dated 5/3/98 10:32:35 PM, you wrote: <<(I apologize if you are receiving this message a second time, but I am not sure it made it through the first time I sent it.) Hello! I am a radical organizer in Chicago, and I am interested in finding information on the relationship of biodiversity/conservation biology to the practice and theory of permaculture. Of particular interest are the aspects of biodiversity that are valued or disvalued in permaculture. Do you know of any electronic or print media that I could access? Also, do you have any Chicago area contacts or resources on this issue? Where would I go to get permaculture literature locally? Thanks! Any leads that you could provide would be helpful. James Mumm jmumm#@orion.it.luc.edu>> Hi James: The answer to your question is more complex than simple affirmation. Of course nobody is againts biodiversity per se, though in some (non permacultural) quarters it is views as less important than other factors, e.g. money and other media of control At issue is what you mean by biodiversity. If you mean numerical diversity of biotypes, permaculture is neutral except when the numbers are very low or very high. If you me functional diversity, that is to say the number of functional (useful, productive, plug in your own buzz word) CONNECTIONS between biological types and the non-biological and quasi-biological components of ab ecosystem, permaculture seeks to maximize this always. In other words, if there are sixty ways in which a hummingbird functionally interacts with a bottle brush vine, that is more biodiversity than 50 non-interacting or competitive interacting species in the same locale. Generally the humming bird will not get everything it needs from the bottle brush, which also needs services from other organisms than the humming bird. However FUNCTIONAL diversity is the number of TOTAL connections (functional interactions). Note that a functional interaction may be superficially negative, as in the effect of a predator on a prey population, however co-evolved predator/prey combinations tend to preserve stable, healthy populations of the species involved. The problem permaculture addresses is based on the virtually ubiquitous species Homo sap, present in almost every ecosystem and felt in the others, even when not materially present. Permaculture strives to integrate Homo sap with ambient ecosystems with as many functional connections as required for sustainance of the sap, and probably a bit more to account for non-material dimensions of the species (spirituality, aesthetics, need for social interaction, peculiar dependence on economic transactions, luxuriating, recreational proclivities, etc.) This makes for happy campers among the humans and a lot more life, including numerical AND functional diversity, in general. Add to that a strong interest in preserving indigenous ecological patterns, though not slavishly. (We may seek NOT to optimize the interactions that allow mosquito species to prosper, for example, particularly vectors of such diseases as malaria, typhoid, and enchephalitis, though these perform balancing and culling functions similar to predator-prey relationships. In this regard, we tend to be slightly sentimental in favor of individual members of our own species. To that extent, we are hostile to biodiversity.) Having noted that indiginous ecological patterns are favored in permaculture, it is important to note that they are largely absent where people have been mucking around for a while. For example, in a permaculture teaching trip to Catalonia, I noticed that there was no indiginous ecosystem. All that remained were pioneer species, particularly those involved with frequent fire cycles. The original humid conditions that presumably produced a temperate rainforest had been eliminated by human activity. It is particularly bad luck that rainy winds come from the south to this North Temperate Zone region, so that terraces built on the rainy sides of mountains to catch rain create high- mass solar absorbers. These have successfully for at least a thousand years of known history have repelled rain clouds from the sea and dried the air (decreased RH, more precisely.) All rain forest species except the fire pioneers have been extinguished beyond the collective memory of residents. We don't know what the hell belongs there. So we have to make it up as we go, perhaps finding species assemblies elsewhere that will work, more likely creating them in an effort to tailor to the environment as it becomes when we restore the humid rainforest. (This is possible with a tiny fraction of the region's available resoruces, but will not be done due to land tenure patterns, the same problem that we encounter virtually everywhere.) If you care to refine your question a bit further, I'm sure we can find some better answers among the permaculture experts who monitor this list. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue May 5 23:20:44 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05598 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08505; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.cc.ukans.edu (carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06533 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by eagle.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000015045; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:56:12 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: carlyh@eagle.cc.ukans.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: HARTER To: Fiction List , permaculture list , sehgarden@aol.com Subject: NPR PBS funding (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:01:16 -1000 (HST) From: Bill&Sarah McCowatt Subject: NPR PBS funding >Please keep this petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Please sign and >forward to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign please send to the >e-mail address indicated. Thanks. > >This petition is being passed around the Internet. Please add your name to >it so that funding can be maintained for the NEA, NPR & PBS. Here goes: > >This is being forwarded to several people at once to add their names to the >petition. It won't matter if many people receive the same list as the >names are being managed. > >This is for anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure of >$1.12/year of their taxes, a petition follows. If you sign, please forward >on to others (not back to me). If not, please don't kill it - send it to >the email address listed here: >>> wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu> > >PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major cutbacks in >funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs >and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the >funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of funding >for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, taxes from the >general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and the National >Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year. > >A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans >wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law >enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. Each year, >the Senate and House Appropriations committees each have 13 subcommittees >with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each subcommittee passes >its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to have each bill signed >by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1. > >The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support >for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices >heard. > >Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends if you believe >in what we stand for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the >United States, the Vice President of the United States, and Representative >Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these >worthwhile programs. > >*If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc. signer of this petition, >please forward a copy to: . > >This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to >everyone you know, and help us to keep these programs alive. Thank you. > >NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT the entirety of this letter and >then COPY it into a new outgoing message rather than simply forwarding it >(in order to avoid an accumulation of excessive >>>'s and other formatting >problems.) > >(this is Harry, I cut off all but the end of the long name list at 550 to save space. Apparently every 50th. person sends the list to the originator so this shouldn't matter. But I think the names between 550 and 600 need to stay on and #600 will forward the list back to the originator.) > >>> 550. Kumar Patel, Union, NJ 07083 >>> 551. Matt Culligan, New York, NY 10009 >>> 552. Bronwen Tawse, New York, NY 10016 >>> 553. Alicia Kelley, New York, NY 10006 >>> 554. Justin St. John, Makawao, HI 96768 >555. K.C. Miller, Makawao, HI 96768 >556. Harry M. Pritikin, Kailua-Kona HI 96745 557 Bill & Sarah McCowatt, Honoka'a Hi 96727 558 Carly Harter, Lawrence, KS 66044 From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue May 19 11:43:09 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20646 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12524; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from comp.uark.edu (root@comp.uark.edu [130.184.252.197]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08241 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00965 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:09:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id KAA02889 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805191513.KAA02889@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:05:50 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Permaculture FAQ update X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 The Permaculture FAQ has just been greatly revised and updated, however the title and url location has changed. Old locations: http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3 http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/faq1.3.html New location: Introduction to Permaculture: Concepts and Resources (May 1998) http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html The PC FAQ Story: The Permaculture FAQ grew out of the author's efforts to include permaculture education in his work as a sustainable ag farm advisor at ATTRA, the national sustainable farming information center located at the University of Arkansas. Larry London and Lee Barnes on the old permaculture-mg mailing list suggested I reformat some of the material I'd already compiled and publish it as a FAQ. In 1995, the author published The Permaculture FAQ 1.0 in September of 1995. The FAQ was written as an information leaflet rather than a series of "Frequently Asked Questions." Two updates in the FAQ series followed. Larry London at Sunsite and Michael Yount at Communications for a Sustainable Future maintained the FAQ in text and html formats. The switch to the ATTRA web site will enable the author to make regular updates and address corrections. The publication is available from ATTRA as both a print publication as well as a web publication. The title was altered to serve both print and web versions, and because many people associate FAQ's with a series of questions rather than a fact sheet format. Take a look at the new version on the ATTRA web site at http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html and let me know if you have any comments or suggestions. Steve Diver ATTRA http://www.attra.org -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From Elfpermacl@aol.com Sun May 31 23:01:57 1998 Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11717 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 23:01:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Elfpermacl@aol.com Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1XUHa29071; Sun, 31 May 1998 22:57:16 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:57:16 EDT To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, london@sunsite.unc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Permaculture and Food Security Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 We will be talking about Permaculture in a food security conference in Miami this week. Sorry for the late notice, but this is when I have got the info myself. Permaculturists who attend will probably make a difference. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html *** From: earthweaver Full-Name: Carol F. Mosley X-Status: New FOOD SECURITY CONFERENCE:RECOVERING OUR RIGHTS TO BASIC SUSTENANCE AND UNCOVERING THE CORPORATE AND MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL QUEST FOR FOOD MONOPOLY CONFERENCE AGENDA St. Thomas University Miami, Florida June 6, 19989am - 10am Registration/ Coffee & Tea10am - 10:30 Introduction by Carol Mosley, State Co-coordinator of Florida Coalition for Peace & Justice Musical introduction by Dan Kauffman10:30 - noon Panel Discussion I: Rebecca Schleifer, Esq. (Migrant Farmworker Justice Project, Florida Legal Services) Cathy Gilbert (Radiation and Public Health Project) Gerrie DeVoe ("Food Irradiation Consequences")noon - 12:30 Initiation of "Triumph of the Commons" food tree planting12:30 - 1:30pm Realities check luncheon1:30 - 2:15pm Keynote Speaker: Delia Quigley (Host of environmental and alternative health radio show in New Jersey; founder and president of Women for a Safe Future; author of two vegetarian cookbooks)2:15 - 2:30pm Break2:30 - 4pm Panel Discussion II: Marty Mesh (Director, Florida Certified Organic Growers Association, Inc.) Cynthia Cowen (Chairperson for Miami chapter of Earth Save International) Dan Hemenway, (Founder of Elfin Permaculture/Yankee Permaculture Publications)4 -5pm Plenary discussion/ Wrap-up ABOUT THE PARTICIPANTSDelia Quigley: Delia is author of two acclaimed vegetarian cookbooks and host of "Food For Thought" on WNTI in New Jersey. She is founder and president of Women For a Safe Future. Delia is a Kushi certified Macrobiotic chef, Jin Shin Jyutsu therapist and Yoga instructor. She also worked closely with Dr. Wally Burnstein, founder of Food and Water, Inc., on numerous environmental issues from 1993 to 1996.Rebecca Schleifer: Rebecca is staff attorney with the Migrant Farmworker Justice Project in Belle Glade and has membership in the California, Florida and Washington state bars and the American Public Health Association. She is co-author of a March 1998 report on "Indifference to Safety: Florida Investigation into Pesticide Poisoning of Farmworkers.Cathy Gilbert: Most recently, Cathy has been working with Dr. Jerry Brown of the Radiation and Public Health Project studying the effects of low-level nuclear radiation which makes its way into our food and water supply. Gerrie DeVoe: Gerrie is a longtime activist and concerned citizen opposing food irradiation for many years. She has done extensive research on this issue and will address her findings on the information that has not been publicized.Marty Mesh: Marty is the Executive Director for the Florida Certified Organic Growers and Consumers, Inc. (FOG). The goal of FOG is to assist organic growers to become certified and to distribute information to farmers and consumers about organic and sustainable agricultural practices.Cynthia Cowen: Cynthia is chairperson for the Miami chapter of EarthSave International and former co-ordinator of the Vegetarian Studies program at Miami Dade Community College Environmental CenterDan Hemenway: Dan is founder of Elfin Permaculture outreach and educational program and Yankee Permaculture publications. He is recognized as among the most innovative teachers of Permaculture design and concept. Dan is also founder, editor and publisher of The International Permaculture Solutions Journal and PROD (Permaculture Review Overview and Digest). He is program director of APT (Advanced Permaculture Training), founder of FERN (Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network) and active in related movements, such as remineralization. PROGRAM CO-SPONSORSSt. Thomas University Center for Justice and Peace; Miami Chapter of EarthSave International; NALITH Foundation; Wild Oats Market, Pinecrest; Florida Green Party; Food Not Bombs, Gainesville & St. Petersburg; Florida Certified Organic Growers, Inc.; Grandparents For Peace, St. Agustine; Jerry Bosworth; Metanoia Community, Jacksonville; Brevardians for Peace and JusticeFlorida Coalition for Peace & Justice, P.O. Box 90035, Gainesville, Florida 32607; (352)468-3295; fcpj@afn.org; www.afn.org/~fcpj/ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from relay13.mx.aol.com (relay13.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.13]) by air18.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:05:48 -0400 Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by relay13.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA27837 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from earthweaver@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LQP06380; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:05:20 EDT To: YankeePerm@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:08:06 -0400 Subject: Food Security Conf agenda Message-ID: <19980601.110807.10118.0.earthweaver@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,66 From: earthweaver@juno.com (Carol F. Mosley) *** From: earthweaverFull-Name: Carol F. MosleyX-Status: NewDear Friends, Please assist with this very important topic. If you can help organize this food security campaign and conference, please let us know. Thanks in advance for your help!Peace/love,Carol MosleyFCPJ Coordinatorearthweaver@juno.com FLORIDA COALITION FOR PEACE & JUSTICE FOOD SECURITY: RECOVERING OUR RIGHTS TO BASIC SUSTENANCE & UNCOVERING THE CORPORATE AND MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL QUEST FOR FOOD MONOPOLY A STATEWIDE CONFERENCE JUNE 6, 1998 St. Thomas University Miami, Florida What in the world is going on?While we were trying to reduce our consumption of pesticides and eat lower on the food chain, the corporate food giants were lobbying congress to weaken the standards for organic food so that they could grab control of the market. While we did our best to avoid buying irradiated foods, the nuclear industry was pushing to do away with the labeling that would let us know we are eating toxic sludge.While "Mad Cow's Disease" became an epidemic in England, the cattle industry and other food oligopolies were enacting "food disparagement laws" that would silence the media from exposing the horrors of our food industries.While we were looking in disbelief at "Dolly," the test-tube sheep, W.R. Grace Company of Boca Raton was diligently applying for worldwide species patents on soybeans and Monsanto was compiling a "consolidation of the entire food chain." (Robert Fraley, Monsanto)While we were watching the "Rover" map out Mars, Lockheed Martin (the world's largest arms-producing company) and Rockwell International were securing their share of the food control industry by promoting "precision farming" through satellite monitoring. ISSUESWeakened Organic Standards Food Irradiation Food Disparagement LawsCorporate Food Monopolies Genetic Seed Patenting Third World "Bio-serfdom"Water Contamination Topsoil Loss Rainforest DevastationFarmworkers' Rights Pesticide Exposure Malnutrition and StarvationLoss of Species Diversity Animal Rights Mad Cows and Manufactured SheepCancer, Heart Attack and Stroke Osteoporosis High Blood Pressure SOLUTIONS Don't get frustrated, get informed and then get busy!!Panelists will share their expertise on the issues and together we will examine ways in which we can individually and collectively recover our rights to healthful food and a healthy planet for ourselves and future generations.Plan to attend and plan to take action when you leave . Our empowerment lies in our unified voices and personal commitment to initiate change. Join the Florida Coalition for Peace & Justice in an ongoing Food Security Campaign!! CONFERENCE REGISTRATIONEnclosed is my check for $__________ (sliding scale $10-$20). Please include me/us as a sponsor $_________I can't attend but here is my donation to the Food Security Campaign $__________.Name__________________________________ Address____________________________________________City, State, Zip ___________________________ Phone__________________ email______________________Return to:Florida Coalition For Peace & Justice, P.O. Box 90035, Gainesville, Florida 32607(352) 468-3295e-mail: fcpj@afn.org _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:15:32 -0400 Received: from m1.boston.juno.com (m1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.199]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA00173 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from earthweaver@juno.com) by m1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LVJ06380; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:15:28 EDT To: YankeePerm@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:12:12 -0400 Subject: Food Sec conf flyer Message-ID: <19980601.111805.10118.1.earthweaver@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0 From: earthweaver@juno.com (Carol F. Mosley) From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Jun 21 15:10:39 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08980 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09551; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from always.got.net (root@gotnet.znet.net [207.167.86.126]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09266 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.133.20.14 (SantaCruz-x2-14.got.net [209.133.20.14]) by always.got.net (8.8.8/8.8.7/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id MAA17467 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:03:09 -0700 Message-Id: <358D5C6B.64B5@got.net> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 12:17:54 -0700 Reply-To: dotcalm@got.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Larry Santoyo To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Permaculture Design Workshops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 “STEWARDING THE EARTH & NURTURING OUR SOULS” Permaculture Design Training at Harbin Hot Springs with Larry Santoyo Learn Stewardship Skills, Home and Garden Design, Natural Building, Community Strategies and more at: Harbin Hot Springs, a healing retreat center located two hours from the Bay Area. Its thousand acres of natural beauty and mineral springs have long been treasured by Native Americans. Tap our intuitive knowledge as we discover how to “read the landscape” and learn the ancient arts that nurture and celebrate the Earth. Larry Santoyo is one of the nation's premier Permaculture consultants, whose unique insight and humor embodies the finest of the oral teaching tradition. • Day workshop: July 18. $85 • Weekend intensives: July 24-26, August 14-16. $195. • Permaculture Design Certification: November 29-Dec. 13. $1050. Includes facilities use and camping. Couples and group discounts available. For details contact: Santoyo & Associates 309 Cedar St. #85 Santa Cruz, California 95060 e-mail dotcalm@got.net phone 1.800.469.5857 web www.permaearth.org From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Jul 6 19:43:07 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18347 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15723; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08023 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.152.167.206 (pm4-206.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.206]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17721; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <35A14518.4FFA@lancnews.infi.net> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:43:52 -0500 Reply-To: pcdirect@lancnews.infi.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: John W Irwin To: OA EC , Pc Inst of N Cal , Greg Peterson , Permaculture Mailing List , Planet Drum , The Last Straw Journal Subject: revised dates for PA Pc Practicum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 PERMACULTURE DESIGN PRACTICUM in Pennsylvania Dutch Country Mt. Nebo, Southern Lancaster County, SE Pennsylvania Saturday, October 17 - Saturday, October 24, 1998 Join us in designing a Permaculture Education & Demonstration Centre. This one week Design Practicum will introduce Permaculture and focus on Design, including landuse planning, water catchment, cleaning, and reuse, sustainable building technologies, alternative energy sources, organic food production, and community economics. This course, combined with a previously taken PC Fundamentals Course, will qualify participants for a Permaculture Design Apprentice Certificate. If you have no previous Permaculture experience, we will recommend a list of required readings. Instructors: Monica Kuhn, Darrell Frey, John Irwin, and Guests Costs: $490*, including meals, tuition, & camping on site; indoor accomodation per arrangment [*10% discount with application received by 9/23, Vernal Equinox] Host & Contact: John Irwin, Editor of the North American Permaculture Directory 130 Creamery Road, Pequea PA 17565-9712 Ph: (717) 284-6318; Fax: -4425 Email: pcdirect@lancnews.infi.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Jul 17 10:57:07 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29605 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22663; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (Kz9+Qn+xMtkYoLr7CsTF/QWsXZhgFeKN@panix2.panix.com [166.84.1.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09227 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from davidb@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id IAA11822; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807171247.IAA11822@panix2.panix.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: davidb@panix.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: David Besonen To: permaculture@envirolink.org Cc: davidb@panix.com Subject: Permaculture Design Certification Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 Permaculture Design Certification Course Location: Opal Creek, Oregon The Opal Creek Education Center is located at the historic mining camp of Jawbone Flats in the heart of the 35,000 acre Opal Creek Wilderness area. Opal Creek is nationally known for it's biologically diverse forest, clear cascading streams, and crystalline emerald colored aqua pools. When: August 17 - 29, 1998 Tuition fee for the two-week course is $800. This includes meals, shared rooms in the lodge or bunkhouse, field trip, curriculum material, and a subscription to The Permaculture Activist. For more information contact: Friends of Opal Creek voice: (503) 897-2921 email: hobbsj@efn.org From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Aug 23 11:05:52 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24065 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08904; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03210 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23348 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:15:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip34-018.boi.primenet.com(206.165.34.18), claiming to be "default" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd023334; Sun Aug 23 06:15:40 1998 Message-Id: <35E017C9.19CA@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:23:21 -0600 Reply-To: pinenut@primenet.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: george & penny frazier To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Pinyon Pinenuts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Ely, Nevada, August 21, 1998 . Pickers bid on 8 of the 80 available wilderness units open for pinenut harvest today .A total projected harvest of 89,000 lbs were bid upon. Although actual harvest usually greatly exceeds the poundage bid upon.. The revenues from the sale will net the U. S. Government in excess of $20,000. in this region alone.. A pinyon tree reaches seed producing maturity sometime between 50 and 75 years of age These trees can live for more than 600 years. Depending upon the species of pinyon, trees may produce between 9.1 kg and 5 kg per tree, with fruiting or coning every 3 - 5 years. The nuts contain all 20 amino acids and have 11.570 grams of protein per 100 grams of nut meat.. Using the most recent study data available, (1972, Barger and Ffolliott) the potential protein yield from this sustainable ,wild resource, maybe very conservatively estimated at 90,000 lbs of pure protien content. any given year. It is interesting to note that until recently little attention has been paid to the food potential of this tree. America annually imports most of its pinenuts from China, Turkey and Korea. Forest managers here have considered pinyon an invasive weed, bulldozing and chaining millions of acres to produce grazing land for cattle. Most recently, management empahsis has been placed upon using these woodlands for fuel in wood and pellet stoves. Conservation of these trees for thier nutiritional value has not yet been identified as a land management goal. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Sep 16 21:47:48 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24502 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19458; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (root@csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17825 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA10870 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:11:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199809170111.TAA10870@csf.Colorado.EDU> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:11:03 -0600 Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Yount To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Course at Arcosanti, starting 18 October 98 (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <10864.905994663.1@csf> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 Apologies if you've seen this already. Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:48:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Shannon C. Dealy" To: coblist@deatech.com Subject: Cob Permaculture course (fwd) From: Belle Starr Hi! Could you help us get the word out on this course? Please forward to all who might be interested. Thanks. Belle Starr The visionary architectural development site, Arcosanti, in Central Arizona, is hosting a a two week course on PERMACULTURE from October 18- Nov. 1st. International and local permaculture peachers will cover renewable energy systems, alternative building technologies including straw bale, how to grow permanent crops (food forests) and set up water harvesting systems among other topics. The course is a must for architects, students, planners, farmers, ranchers, homeowners, educators, and anyone else interested in learning how to create sustainable systems that are profitable and offer all kinds of solutions to many of our modern day challenges. Course leaders include Ernest Callenbach, author of the underground classic, Ecotopia and a new book, Ecology, a Pocket Guide. Also presenting will be Larry Korn, who in addition to working with Japanese author and ecologist, Masanobu Fukuoka, translated and edited Fukuoka's, The One-Straw Revolution. Bay Area architect Bob Theis will lead a hands-on workshop on straw bale. A pristine desert environment serves as the backdrop for this two week-"ecological camp for adults." The course is sponsored by the non-profit International Institute for Ecological Agriculture. For information, cost and to register, call 1-888-PERMACULTURE. - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 7 15:35:58 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06530 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26108; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10165 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.214.110.183] [204.214.110.185] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0zQufw-0002QR-00; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:34:49 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sustag@tinet.ie From: bambugib@harborside.com (Gib Cooper) Subject: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: bambugib@harborside.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 In Oregon we have a similar scenario but I have never heard of a tick problem. One scheme has been to plant harvestable timber bamboo on private lands between the fence and the waterway. On the Coquille River, landowner Barney Amdahl, purchased 3 bamboo species and using the State of Oregon's program for riparian improvement had the fence and bamboo planted with the state crew. This was 3 years ago. We are monitoring the progrees of this planting. Perhaps the planting of bamboo or willow on the otherside of the fence would ease this stockman's fears. Perhaps he will appreciate another marketable crop? Sincerely, Gib Cooper Secretary, Oregon Bamboo Association >Dear all, >at a recent farm visit a cattle farmer pointed out that his obligation to fence >off watercourses as part of an agri-environmental scheme presented him with a >new problem. He claimed that the rank, old grass behind the fence would lead to >increased numbers of ticks which in turn increases the risk of Redwater >(Clostridium novyi Type D infection) occuring in his herd. > >Does anyone on these lists have any evidence (incidental/scientific) for an >increase in tick populations in rank, old grass or any general >information/recommendations on how to avoid Redwater infection? > >Many thanks in advance. >Ute > >-- >Ute Bohnsack >Sailchearnach >Clogher >Kilfenora >Co. Clare >Ireland >mailto:sustag@tinet.ie From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 9 00:33:06 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA28775 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06812; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22497; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:04:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Permacltur@aol.com Received: from Permacltur@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id UADTa10656; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5f4c985d.361cc6de@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:06:22 EDT To: bambugib@harborside.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, sustag@tinet.ie, permaculture@envirolink.org, Permacltur@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_907855583_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Permacltur@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_907855583_boundary Content-ID: <0_907855583@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_907855583_boundary Content-ID: <0_907855583@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Permacltur@aol.com Return-path: To: bambugib@harborside.com Subject: Re: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:05:24 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/7/98 2:36:54 PM, you wrote: <> Nice suggestin, Gib: Much of the best work in hybrid willow was done in Ireland. I don't know what species of bamboo they would use--Maybe Phyllostachys congesta? Bamboo is less tolerant of seasonal flooding than willow, particularly Phyllostachys spp which is about the only genus they can grow in Ireland, I'd think. Both plants are suitable as emergency or supplemental fodder, though willow produces more and is more resiliant. Basket willows can be a nice touch. Geese will keep the grass mowed without breaking down the banks. Hawthorns can be used as a partial barrier to cattle and the fruit used as fruit or medicine. Possibly some species of Mayhaw, the large fruited hawthorns, will grow there (I don't recall the part of ireland we are talking about.) Some of the chinese species also might suit and might be better climatically adapted, though in any case I'd use local wetlands species as rootstock. (I've seen them in ireland, as well as a crab apple growing in standing water that would make a dynamite root stock for apples in that sodden place.) For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html --part0_907855583_boundary-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 9 18:06:54 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA12592 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00148; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spock.tinet.ie (spock.tinet.ie [159.134.237.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00078; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tinet.ie (p135.ennis1.tinet.ie [159.134.245.135]) by spock.tinet.ie (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA32418; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:45:01 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <361E8461.2281E15B@tinet.ie> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 22:47:13 +0100 From: Ute Bohnsack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Permacltur@aol.com CC: bambugib@harborside.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] References: <5f4c985d.361cc6de@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: sustag@tinet.ie Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 Thank you, Gib & Dan! That bamboo idea sure is inspirational. I have been contemplating bamboo for my own [little] site. Which species did you plant in Oregon, Gib? As to the average West of Ireland farmer [major big sigh]: tell them about Guinea fowl and they think you are away with the fairies altogether (I did a wee test run, Dan, on an enlightened fella). If you tell them to plant willows or hawthorn they reply that they've been trying to get rid of the stuff for years - sure why would they go and plant it? The current cattle culture here is a classic monoculture in a way. At present I am working on a small study about grazing management on calcareous grassland in the Burren karstic region in the West of Ireland. Most of the farms used to have a flock of goats, until about 30-50 years ago, which kept scrub encroachment at bay (hawthorn, sloe, brambles but mostly hazel). The goats were milked and the kids were eaten. Now the dispersed goat populations have become big feral herds which do not do a good job on the scrub due to their sporadic browsing. They have become a pest to the farmers as they compete with the cattle for grass (even though goats browse more than they graze, 200 of them can quickly nibble down a couple of acres of nice grass). In the entire region of about 700 sqkm there is but one commercial dairy goat herd! The equilibrium is gone. The farmers cry out that the scrub is taking over their land and what can they about it (bulldozing has recently been outlawed in certain designated areas under EU conservation legislation). Farms have become much larger and there is less manpower around, most farmers have gone part-time. What used to be one holding is now just part of a bigger dispersed holding, so herding of goats is mostly out. What do you do? I should also mention that from the conservation point of view a mosaic of scrub + limestone grassland/heathland + limestone pavement is the most valuable. Neither the goats or the scrub are seen as a ressource. It's a classic case of: "I want to do this. How can I do it at all costs?" instead of "What has nature to offer in this area and how can I make the most of the ressources that are here." Not that the EU agricultural policy is helpful in changing those attitudes... Any furniture makers out there? Does anybody need blackberries, hazelnuts, sloe, yarrow, St. Johnswort, marjoram, thyme, hawberries? Kid meat? Hazel coppice? Come to the Burren, it's here for the taking... Greetings from the sodden place. Ute ps: nice site about the Burren by Ms Comber: http://www.hooked.net/~comber/ and if you got hooked like she did also check out http://www.iol.ie/~burrenag/ > > Subject: Re: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:05:24 EDT > From: Permacltur@aol.com > To: bambugib@harborside.com > > In a message dated 10/7/98 2:36:54 PM, you wrote: > > < problem. One scheme has been to plant harvestable timber bamboo on private > lands between the fence and the waterway. On the Coquille River, landowner > Barney Amdahl, purchased 3 bamboo species and using the State of Oregon's > program for riparian improvement had the fence and bamboo planted with the > state crew. This was 3 years ago. We are monitoring the progrees of this > planting. > > Perhaps the planting of bamboo or willow on the otherside of the fence > would ease this stockman's fears. Perhaps he will appreciate another > marketable crop? > > Sincerely, > > Gib Cooper > Secretary, Oregon Bamboo Association>> > > Nice suggestin, Gib: > > Much of the best work in hybrid willow was done in Ireland. I don't know what > species of bamboo they would use--Maybe Phyllostachys congesta? Bamboo is > less tolerant of seasonal flooding than willow, particularly Phyllostachys spp > which is about the only genus they can grow in Ireland, I'd think. Both > plants are suitable as emergency or supplemental fodder, though willow > produces more and is more resiliant. Basket willows can be a nice touch. > Geese will keep the grass mowed without breaking down the banks. Hawthorns > can be used as a partial barrier to cattle and the fruit used as fruit or > medicine. Possibly some species of Mayhaw, the large fruited hawthorns, will > grow there (I don't recall the part of ireland we are talking about.) Some of > the chinese species also might suit and might be better climatically adapted, > though in any case I'd use local wetlands species as rootstock. (I've seen > them in ireland, as well as a crab apple growing in standing water that would > make a dynamite root stock for apples in that sodden place.) > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), > Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence > courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, > Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at > http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html > Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers > assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html -- Ute Bohnsack Sailchearnach Clogher Kilfenora Co. Clare Ireland mailto:sustag@tinet.ie From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 9 22:26:50 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14982 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26986; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26677; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:58:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Permacltur@aol.com Received: from Permacltur@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id IILHa02317; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:56:46 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:56:46 EDT To: sustag@tinet.ie Cc: bambugib@harborside.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Permacltur@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 In a message dated 10/9/98 5:45:28 PM, sustag@tinet.ie wrote: << If you tell them to plant willows or hawthorn they reply that they've been trying to get rid of the stuff for years - sure why would they go and plant it? The current cattle culture here is a classic monoculture in a way. At present I am working on a small study about grazing management on calcareous grassland in the Burren karstic region in the West of Ireland. Most of the farms used to have a flock of goats, until about 30-50 years ago, which kept scrub encroachment at bay (hawthorn, sloe, brambles but mostly hazel). The goats were milked and the kids were eaten. Now the dispersed goat populations have become big feral herds which do not do a good job on the scrub due to their sporadic browsing. They have become a pest to the farmers as they compete with the cattle for grass (even though goats browse more than they graze, 200 of them can quickly nibble down a couple of acres of nice grass). In the entire region of about 700 sqkm there is but one commercial dairy goat herd! The equilibrium is gone. The farmers cry out that the scrub is taking over their land and what can they about it (bulldozing has recently been outlawed in certain designated areas under EU conservation legislation). Farms have become much larger and there is less manpower around, most farmers have gone part-time. What used to be one holding is now just part of a bigger dispersed holding, so herding of goats is mostly out. What do you do? I should also mention that from the conservation point of view a mosaic of scrub + limestone grassland/heathland + limestone pavement is the most valuable. Neither the goats or the scrub are seen as a ressource. It's a classic case of: "I want to do this. How can I do it at all costs?" instead of "What has nature to offer in this area and how can I make the most of the ressources that are here." Not that the EU agricultural policy is helpful in changing those attitudes... Any furniture makers out there? Does anybody need blackberries, hazelnuts, sloe, yarrow, St. Johnswort, marjoram, thyme, hawberries? Kid meat? Hazel coppice? Come to the Burren, it's here for the taking... Greetings from the sodden place. Ute>> Hey Ute: The only reason for growing hawthorne is to make shitloads of money--well really one of a zillion reasons but the only reason for people with only two or three values. One you wouldn't want to undertake in hawthorn and the other is threatened when you explain that you first soak the berries in perfectly good alcohol. Been there, done that (try to explain wealth vs. debt to people). Speaking of getting rich, if you can breed goats to eat gorse (instead of cultivate it, amost efficiently as pyromanical people do), you'd own ireland in a week, and could then move to annex New Zealand. We see it in Georgia, USA, where I lived a short while back, around kudzu. Probably one of the three or four most useful plants int he world--lets see there's also neem, coconut, sweet potato, and of course gorse. That's 5. Gorse isn't quite as useful as the others, though, unless you live in a cold, raw, rainy climate where firewood would be desirable. It is a phenomenal fuel. Smart, since fire favors it. People wouldn't use kudzu because they hated it. Kind of like not taking a present from hitler or somethng. It was real personal, that hate, and they couldn't see a plant just having its own nature and being something that could fill their bellies and their wallets. I gave up on the Kudzu utilization project, though I still have the info if anyone wants to revitalize some rural economies and fatten his/her own bank account at the same time. Probably you don't charge enough for your advice. I'm beginning to believe that the more one charges the more effective one is because the payers take the advice seriously. it costs too much to ignore. Never mind if it is right or wrong! Have fun. I don't try to convince anyone of anything unless they ask my advice or mislead people I'm in discussion with. There are enough people looking for actual solutions to keep us all busy. But hey, maybe you can find a way to help people get rid of that pesky peat. I understand there is 3 or 4 percent left you haven't been able to eradicate! Folks will listen to advice on how to get the very last bet, you can bet on it. Best regards Dan From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Oct 10 00:07:30 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15757 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03762; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU (csf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.195]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03620 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csf (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA12521 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199810100331.VAA12521@csf.Colorado.EDU> To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: autumn conferences, western US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12518.907990311.1@csf> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 21:31:51 -0600 From: Michael Yount Reply-To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 I've received several conference announcements during the past week. Following are summaries... Making Change in the Marketplace A National Conference on Eco-Labels October 22-23, 1998 Portland, Oregon Call 503-493-1066 or e-mail conference@thefoodalliance.org for details. Western Regional Land Trust Conference November 12-13, 1998 Albuquerque, New Mexico Contact Julie Orvis at 413-746-8660 or jorvisice@aol.com Farming for Our Future: Supporting Local Organic Agriculture Washington Tilth Producers 1998 Conference November 13-15, 1998 Ellensburg, Washington Call 206-892-3952 with questions I greatly enjoyed the Tilth Producers conference in 1996. Anyone who'd like more details from the announcements is welcome to contact me privately. Michael yount@csf.colorado.edu From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Oct 13 04:04:28 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA18140 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 04:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA10282; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from online.no (pilt-s.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10161 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [130.67.68.219] (ti34a22-0091.dialup.online.no [130.67.68.219]) by online.no (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA19793 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:38:14 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:38:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: xavierd@mail.online.no Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: permaculture@envirolink.org From: Xavier Dequaire Subject: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id DAA10162 Reply-To: xavierd@online.no Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 >That bamboo idea sure is inspirational. a nice source of Bamboos and bamboo-information is La Bambouseraie Prafrance 30140 ANDUZE France phone: + 33 4 66 61 70 47 fax: +33 4 66 61 64 15 they have a very nice and instructive catalogue, in several languages. It is worth to get it. with info about size, climate tolerance (down bellow -20 oC!), edible sprouts etc. it will confirm you that Phyllostachys ssp. can grow in Ireland, Phyllostachys congesta is especially tolerant for water. They is a large enough choice in the catalogue, probably more if you ask them: they send all over the world. yours Xavier ========================================== XDi, X a v i e r D E Q U A I R E i n t e r a k t i v CBT/Multimedia, Digital Video, MPEG, interaktiv opplæring Developper-programmer-Instructional designer phone: (+47) 6684 7983 utvikler/forhandler < xavierd@online.no >--< http://home.sol.no/~xavierd > XX XDDDD X X I D X . D X I D X I D X X I D XX XXIDD From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Oct 13 12:32:21 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22807 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02611; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02277 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.214.110.17] [204.214.110.162] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0zT72H-00037W-00; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:10:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: permaculture@envirolink.org From: bambugib@harborside.com (Gib Cooper) Subject: Re: Redwater, ticks and old grass [Ireland] Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: bambugib@harborside.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 >Thank you, Gib & Dan! >That bamboo idea sure is inspirational. I have been contemplating bamboo for my >own [little] site. Which species did you plant in Oregon, Gib? At Barney Amdahl's riparian planting on the Coquille River in Oregon there are 3 species he selected. Phyllostachys heterocycla pubescens - MOSO BAMBOO Sasa kurielensis Pseudosasa japonica - ARROW BAMBOO It was planted in 1994-1995. He told me a few months ago that the plants are finally beginning to make leaps in growth. We hope to write an article about this for the Oregon Bamboo Association. This is to show there are several bamboo books available for Bamboo Identification/Photo Books: ( domestic prices are from Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery, ask for the full email list of books and plants) A Compendium of Chinese Bamboo $90 Bamboos of the Chitou Forest Recreation Area $25 Bamboos of Bhutan $12 The Bamboos of Nepal $12 Catalog of the Bambouseraie de Prafrance (in English) $12 Another book from Tradewinds is: "Bamboo on the Farm" by Daphne Lewis $20 Daphne's new booklet is available: "Hardy Bamboos for Shoots & Poles - Thirty Varieties of Bamboo for Farms in USDA Zones 7, 8, 9." is ready. It is intended to enable farmers to decide which species to plant. It is not an ID book. It has 28 pages and no illustrations except the drawing on the cover, by John Bettman. It describes species of Phyllostachys in chart form to make comparisons easier. The headings are: Northwest height in feet [Max U.S. height], Maximum diameter inches [Max US. diam.], Minimum temp Fahrenheit, Quality of poles & wood, Quality of shoot, Shoot season, Forage quality [August measurement] % protein, % fat, Previous flowering dates, Flowering cycle in years, first introduced to U.S. Plant Introduction #, and Comments. The Comments column takes up a whole page whereas the other columns all fit on one page. Synonyms are given and the meaning of the scientific name. The text was edited by Gib Cooper, Richard Haubrich, Adam Turtle, and Rick Valley. One page is headed "Why Plant Bamboo on the Farm?" Six pages are devoted to "Explanation of Headings". James Clever is handling the sales and marketing of this book.The book mail orders in the United States for $12 and sells retail for $10.00. The minimum wholesale order is 12 books. Wholesale price is $6.00. To order send a check to James Clever, the Bamboo Gardener, (206-782-3490) 2609 NW 86th Street, Seattle Washington 98117 USA. I will post costs of shipping outside the US. Contact Daphne at ----------------- Gib Cooper Gib Cooper TRADEWINDS BAMBOO NURSERY 28446 Hunter Creek Loop Gold Beach, OR 97444 Tel & FAX: 541/247-0835 http://www.harborside.com/bamboo/ From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 14 17:50:59 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20047 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13092; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13008 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00840 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:30:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip34-084.boi.primenet.com(206.165.34.84), claiming to be "default" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd000817; Wed Oct 14 14:30:09 1998 Message-ID: <36251992.23B@primenet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:37:22 -0600 From: george & penny frazier Reply-To: pinenut@primenet.com Organization: GOODS FROM THE WOODS X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Pinyon Pinenuts and WIlderness Land Management and input requests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 A pinyon pinenut has all 20 amino acids and was the staple food of the Native American Peoples of the Southwest. It was to their culture, what the buffalo was to the plains people. An acre of pinyon pine forest can create up to 250 pounds of pinenuts. I have read varying figures on protein percentages, anywhere from 13% to 30% of the shelled nut meat. The pinenut has also been documented to be 28 times more efficient in its use of land for the creation of protein. Starting in the early 1950's public land managers declared the pinyon and inverse weed and aggressively worked to eradicate it in areas suitable for conversion for cattle grazing. It takes 50 to 75 years for a pinyon to mature into its seed producing capacity, and pinyons live up to 600 years. I took the pinyon on as my issue about 20 months ago. We thought that we could change land management policies if we could create a demand for the pinenut. Create a demand for a wild product, create a economic demand for wilderness. To that end, I have peddled nuts all over the country. I have a couple of problems in that the outer casing scares people into thinking shelling is labor intensive. (The species is pinus monophylla (soft shell, Great Basin) and not pinus edulis (double leaf hard shell). I have devised several ways to shell at home, including, putting the nuts in a cotton sock with a rock, then tumbling in the dryer on fluff. If one includes dry clean clothes, the clothes smell wonderful. I found that the discussion on the self closing chicken coop doors was most creative and informative. Maybe someone has an idea about shelling pinenuts. Also, the environmental issues are pretty complex and I am working on creating an on-line forum for the purpose of some serious discussion about the food value of the pinyon juniper range. Any ideas, comments or feed back on this message is welcome and appreciated. From Dragon@arashi.com Wed Oct 21 21:58:34 1998 Received: from kokoro.enso-company.com ([192.243.33.85] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17153 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sabrina (ip50.pm3-2.eli.du.nwlink.com [209.20.135.50]) by kokoro.enso-company.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA04172; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981021185101.00a8a3b0@pop.arashi.com> X-Sender: Dragon@pop.arashi.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:58:00 -0700 To: london@sunsite.unc.edu From: John Howe Subject: Looking for Permaculture, Sustainable Ag, Regenerative Design Contatcs in Ireland Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Hey All, I am travelling to Ireland next month and am looking for Pemaculture contacts there. We are part of an international volunteer exchange program @ urban forestry issues. I would appreciate any links or e-mails to appropriate parties ( @ Dublin 2 Killarney ). TIA. I am not subscibed to these listservs, so please direct responses to my address above/below. Thanks again! John Howe http://www.arashi.com/ John Howe Un*x SA, Permaculture, and other systemic design practices PGP Sig on Request >;}~ From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 22 03:10:59 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA21045 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA07827; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 02:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zeus.tds.edu (root@zeus.tds.edu [38.149.131.15]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06596 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 02:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from prosh@localhost) by zeus.tds.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id CAA05109 for permaculture@envirolink.org; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 02:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 02:33:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Maddoc Message-Id: <199810220633.CAA05109@zeus.tds.edu> To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Earthwatch Festival in Cambridge, MA, USA on Oct 24, 1998 Reply-To: prosh@zeus.tds.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Saturday, October 24, Cambridge, MA 1998 Earthwatch Festival of Science & Culture E.O. Wilson of Harvard once described Earthwatch's annual affair "like jogging through the Louvre". Fascinating slide talks on recent expeditions to explore biological and cultural diversity worldwide. Meet over 60 prominent scientists from around the world who will give slide talks or poster sessions on their research. Among the presentors, Roger Fouts, author of Next of Kin, famed teacher of ASL to Washoe the chimp; Dr. Lee Dyer, National Geographic funded expert on caterpillars of La Selva, Costa Rica; Barb St. John, Koalas of Kangaroo Island; British archaelogist Nick Hodgeson, Arbeia Roman Fort on Tyne; Icelandic geographer Dr. Andrew Russell on glaciers and climate change; sea turtle expert Dr. Tundi Agardy of Conservation International. Learn about carnivores of Madagascar, dolphins off Spain, Black Bears in North Carolina, early photographic archives in Peru. Open to the public. Location: Harvard University Science Center One Oxford St. at Kirkland St., Cambridge, MA (just a short walk from Harvard Square T Stop on the red line) 9 am registration; 10:30 - 5:30 talks; 5:30-7 reception; posters up all day Fees: $25 members, $30 non-members, $15 students ($5 student special - seminars only) Call (800) 776-0188 or visit http://www.earthwatch.org/t/Tconf98.html. Earthwatch Institute is a non-profit organization. Proceeds will go toward supporting scientific research around the globe. Please share with anyone interested in learning about volunteering on research expedition teams worldwide that help find solutions for a sustainable future. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 22 20:27:49 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05721 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from server@localhost) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28910; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28792 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17867 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:20:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip34-036.boi.primenet.com(206.165.34.36), claiming to be "default" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017838; Thu Oct 22 17:20:28 1998 Message-ID: <362FCD7A.661D@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:27:38 -0600 From: george & penny frazier Reply-To: pinenut@primenet.com Organization: GOODS FROM THE WOODS X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Substainable Guidelines - Development Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 When I work with multi-dementionally with pinyons and pinenuts. In Spirtual spaces, as well as tangible ones this is my life's work. Deep heart space, there is much love and respect for the pinyon. The biggest issue considered: 47 million acres of public lands. Target to shift focus from grazing, to substaining and reforesting pinyon range, The tree needs 75 - 200 years to grow up! It live 6oo years, The best way I thought, market pinyon nuts. (This part is moving okay, some issues - but my concern is that it won't happen soon enough. ( Gee, how many of us share that one?) Now, it has occurred to me that I know nothing about substainable yields and to my knowlege, and research, there are no guidelines. I am working to put together a online forum on pinyon issue, and this hard question appeared: "how does one go about determining such guidelines, then work to get them implemented. This is a very valid question and there is much to be considered.. Again, this very deep respect for the work and am reaching to do my best with it. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Nov 20 12:51:47 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06927 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24043; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from apollo.hccs.cc.tx.us ([198.64.31.21]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22623 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from oracle@localhost) by apollo.hccs.cc.tx.us (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA13813 for permaculture@envirolink.org; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:38:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199811201738.LAA13813@apollo.hccs.cc.tx.us> Date: 20 Nov 98 11:37:00 -0600 From: "David Wilcox" To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Oracle InterOffice (version 4.1.1.3.40) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA22626 Reply-To: WILCOX_D@hccs.cc.tx.us Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Nov 21 09:21:52 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20725 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05883; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05661 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:10:25 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1TTHa02731; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:14:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5995a28a.3656cab3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:14:11 EST To: permaculture@envirolink.org, cneurath@tds.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: unrelated to maple syrup or roofs Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_911657652_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_911657652_boundary Content-ID: <0_911657652@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I've asked this poster to be a bit more specific regarding the locality. Meanwhile, I'm sending this along in case anyone on this list is doing landscaping in the area. I've already prosposed a workshop to design a long- term solution that's more sustainable, and I've already sugested sheep, so those bases are covered. Please do not reply to me (I'll delete the email pro forma) but to the original poster: cneurath@tds.net Dan Hemenway For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html --part0_911657652_boundary Content-ID: <0_911657652@inet_out.mail.tds.net.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay30.mx.aol.com (relay30.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.30]) by air07.mail.aol.com (v51.29) with SMTP; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:29:08 1900 Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by relay30.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA03843 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.121] (henyusr0-a57.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.121]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA12978 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:29:05 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <79ae3f12.36559b4c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:31:57 -0500 To: YankeePerm@aol.com From: CN Subject: unrelated to maple syrup or roofs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dan, I've been meaning to post this question to the whole list, but since your business in called Yankee Permaculture I'm going to try you first. A local college that I am vaguely affiliated with, St.Lawrence University, in Northern New York State, has a student group which is trying very hard to get the grounds department to stop using pesticides and herbicides on campus. Of course, the University wants the place to look "good" for alumni so they regularly douse all the lawns, trees, and walkways. I think if there was a commercial outfit, or consultant who could "guarantee" the grounds department that they could have nice green lawns etc. without chemicals, that they might try it. They are not going to believe a bunch of their own students. Do you know of such landscaping/lawn care companies that would be willing to take on such a client? Do you know whether it would cost a lot more than they are spending right now? Perhaps if the students presented a list of qualified companies, the University would actually look into hiring one of them. I think the University would want to use it's own employees for the actual implementation, so the company would be more an advisory or consulting relationship than actually going out and spreading the compost and mulch. By the way, the university has a large horse riding stable which generates mountains of wonderful compost-ready manure. They also own a 18 hole golf course, which might have to be a 2md stage. waiting for success with organic campus landscaping before they would be ready to give up poisons. Chris Neurath --part0_911657652_boundary-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Dec 2 05:16:48 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA04286 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10573; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from newsgate.dircon.co.uk (newsgate.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.81]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10394 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 05:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from midnet.com (uucp@localhost) by newsgate.dircon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id KAA05913 for permaculture@envirolink.org; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:07:33 GMT From: perma@midnet.com (perma) Reply-To: perma@midnet.com To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Unsubscribe Date: 02 Dec 1998 09:56:49 GMT Message-Id: <1703934.200292527@midnet.com> Organization: MidNet, Coventry UK Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 unsubscribe From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Dec 3 12:16:13 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09804 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29368; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (jalee@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28956 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jalee@localhost) by wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA00022 for permaculture@envirolink.org; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:04:56 -0500 (EST) From: jennifer lee Message-Id: <199812031704.MAA00022@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Subject: Permaculture Education To: permaculture@envirolink.org Date: Thu, 3 Dec 98 12:04:55 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Reply-To: jalee@chat.carleton.ca Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 > :} > :}Hi All! > :} > :}I have been reading quite a bit about permaculture and I am very > :}interested in taking some courses so that I may learn more. Can anyone > :}help me out with suggestions for good schools/education centers? Thanks in > :}advance for your time! > :} > :}Jennifer > :} > :}P.S. I am located in Canada so Australian schools are not my first choice. > :}However, please include info about American/European institutes. > :} > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Dec 3 23:54:08 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27717 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20157; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19664 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mindspring.com (pool-207-205-238-113.atln.grid.net [207.205.238.113]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA30858; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:46:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <366764FB.64AFB211@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:28:43 -0500 From: Keith Johnson Organization: The Permaculture Activist: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pc-activist X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jalee@chat.carleton.ca, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Permaculture Education References: <199812031704.MAA00022@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: keithdj@mindspring.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 jennifer lee wrote: > > :} > > :}Hi All! > > :} > > :}I have been reading quite a bit about permaculture and I am very > > :}interested in taking some courses. Can anyone > > :}help me out with suggestions for good schools/education centers? > > :}Jennifer Hi Jennifer, The Permaculture Activist maintains a website with detailed listings of Permaculture Institutes and organizations. Look on the resources page at: http://metalab.unc.edu/pc-activist (this is the new address, though the old one, http://sunsite.unc.edu/pc-activist seems to still work) You can also find course offerings listed on the Eastern Permaculture Teachers Assoc webpage. It includes Canadian events, too.: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html Keith JohnsonThe Permaculture Activist From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 4 14:24:51 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11037 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13507; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13121; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:10:42 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id QLCa017656; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:15:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10bd2939.366834d2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:15:30 EST To: keithdj@mindspring.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, jalee@chat.carleton.ca, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Permaculture Education Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA13125 Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 Elfin Permaculture News Our Annual Permaculture Design Courses by Email Began November 29. Late registrations extended. The Third annual Elfin Permaculture Design Course Online began November 29, 1998. Due to a flurry of last-minute interest, we have extended the time to register under the lower "advanced payment" fee to Dec. 12. Later registrations will be accepted at the regular fee. Students can register for the course at any time, however once a section is 1/3 complete, the instructor will require certificate students to take the section over the next time we offer the course. (There is no extra charge for this.) The course runs 5 to 6 months, depending on the needs of the class. The course combines readings in conventional books and papers with online discussion and a number of student reports. These include practice teaching of what they have learned and a comprehensive permaculture design report that serves as a final examination. Like the in-person three-week course, this five to six month online program confers a Permaculture Design Certificate on students who successfully complete all requirements. Some students take the course to obtain professional guidance in developing their permaculture designs without the need to pay consulting rates. Non certificate students may, of course, waive any requirements. Enrollment is limited to 20 students. However, anyone can monitor the course for a nominal fee. Monitors do not take place in course discussion, although of course they are free to conduct private communications with any of the students. For more information, email us at ElfPermacl@aol.com We will send you the course protocol and the course reading list. Students may enroll in the entire program at one time or in any of three course sections in any order. The course follows the outline below: SECTION 1: Introduction and Basic Principles a) World ecological problems and interrelationships. b) Principles of natural design. c) Permaculture design concepts. d) Classical landscapes. e) Patterning, edges, edge effects. f) The Permaculture Design Report g) Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much as we have worked out at the moment--this is not part of ordinary permaculture design courses). SECTION 2: Appropriate Technologies in Permaculture Design a) Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc. b) Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods, perennials, tree crops, food parks, composting toilets, livestock, "pest" management, food storage, seed saving, cultivated systems, forests, etc. c) Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc. d) Buildings. SECTION 3: Social permaculture. Design Report. a) Design for catastrophe. b) Urban permaculture. c) Bioregionalism. d) Alternative economics. e) Village development. f) Final design reports and critiques. g) Final evaluation. DESIGN SECTION. (Requires Section 1.) Students complete a permaculture design Students follow a set reading schedule supplemented by notes from the instructor. They discuss reading assignments in an email classroom. The instructor also supplements course materials with resources drawn from varied components of the internet. Students practice explaining or teaching permaculture basics, give special reports, and prepare a complete permaculture design. The course runs 20-26 weeks, depending on the time needed to complete discussion of various topics. Students completing all course requirements receive a Permaculture Design Course certificate. Students may arrange to enroll individual sections of the course in any sequence, depending on their financial and schedule requirements. People may also arrange to monitor the course at nominal cost. Instructor Dan Hemenway has taught permaculture worldwide in Europe, Asia, the Pacific and North America. Dan is also founder, editor and publisher of The International Permaculture Solutions Journal, highly regarded among permaculturists, and PROD (Permaculture Review Overview and Digest). He is program director of APT (Advanced Permaculture Training), founder of the Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network (FERN), and active in related movements such as remineralization. He contributes to the development of permaculture with ongoing work on principles of transformation. Dan holds five diplomas in various aspects of permaculture from the International Permaculture Institute. He received the annual Conservation Award from Friends of Nature in 1983 and the Community Service Award from the International Permaculture Institute in 1984. In 1991, he was named as a delegate to "Roots of the Future," a conference of NGOs in Paris, France, to prepare input to the UN "Earth Summit" held in June, 1992. More recently, Dan was cited in Swathmore's Who’s Who in America for 1996-97, and from 1995 to 1996 was named permanent Honorary Chairman, Permaculture Foundation - Net_Work - Kenya, Homa Bay, Kenya. For details, email Elfin Permaculture at elfpermacl@aol.com Correspondence courses by mail continue to be available. Contact us if you would like to host a live course or workshop at your site. PREP--Permaculture/Remineralization Education Program Studies Chinampas In concert with Remineralize the Earth Foundation, Elfin Permaculture has founded PREP--Permaculture/Remineralization Education Project. PREP was created initially to support a Kenyan permaculture project in which Elfin Permaculture has been instrumental. Now PREP seeks support for a study trip to Mexico to document Chinampas. Dan has experimented with the chinampas concept in the past, and presently is developing a permaculture design with chinampas at Barking Frogs Farm. To make the techniques we use compatible with areas where expanded food production is most needed, we are doing all work by hand. Volunteers are welcome and we have room for 2 interns. The Barking Frogs Farm chinampas build on the Mexican technique by applying permaculture design to integrate them to a total permaculture design. Financial contributions are badly needed to document the last remaining traditional chinampas in Xochomilco, Mexico. INTERNSHIPS AT BARKING FROGS PERMACULTURE CENTER We have two internships available for people who wish to gain experience and contribute to the development and outreach of permaculture design. Each of our internships is designed in response to goals of the interns as well as to current needs of the center. Work includes both indoor tasks (office, publications, design documentation, etc.) and physical tasks (construction, chinampas building, agroforestry development, gardening, animal care, harvest, etc.) and may include outreach activities. Internships have the potential to develop into profit-sharing businesses and/or commonworks projects where the intern develops a sustainable means of self-support. Paraguay Project Report We have completed our initial consultation report for Maralá, our collaborating project in Paraguay, and now look to see more development there. The people at Maralá are open to interns, volunteers, and potential new members of the community. Maralá goals include personal self-support, development and implementation of a permaculture design, outreach to others in Paraguay with sustainable practices, an education center, a biological reserve, and preservation and restoration of Paraguayan forest ecosystems. Contact Stelvio and Brigitt at stelvio@hotmail.com and CC us at Parmacltur@aol.com PERMACULTURE CONSULTATION SERVICES Elfin Permaculture offers consultation services including full permaculture designs, consultation reports, and a special client survey with feedback. (See the regular order form.) While we feel that for most people, training to design their own place is more useful, there has proven to be a valid place for some consultation. In addition to designs for people who have not received permaculture training, we find that we help people with some experience to design difficult or delicate parts of their site. We will accept no more than two design or consulting jobs concurrently in order to have time to work on our own place. For details, contact Dan Hemenway, Barking Frogs Permaculture Center, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192-0052 USA or email Dan at Permacltur@aol.com Yankee Permaculture Publication News Second Edition of Cornucopia Expected Soon A new, updated edition of Cornucopia - A Source Book of Edible Plants by Stephen Facciola is expected to be in print very soon. The original 676 large- format page edition lists about 3,000 plant species useful as food and provides detailed cultivar listings for more than 110 cultivated crops. It furnishes botanical listings by family of vascular plants, fungi, algae, and bacteria, a special section of cultivar listings, a cross-referenced list of sources where materials described can be obtained, an index of species native or naturalized to North America, an Index of species not listed in Kunkeel, a general index of families and genera, and appendices of abbreviations, for type of product offered, bibliographical citations, and descriptions for plant sources. Fascinating reading in its own right, Cornucopia is an invaluable tool for permaculturists for such purposes as finding sources of "obscure" species, identifying food uses of plants on site, and determining additional uses for food plants. We regard this as an essential book for every permaculture library. The new edition will be especially helpful in updating where each listed species and variety may be purchased. Contact us to be on the list to receive notice when the new edition is in stock. TRIP VII Is Off the Press! Vol. VII of TRIP, The Resources of International Permaculture, was back from the printer around Dec. 1, 1998. TRIP VII is a directory of about 2,000 groups worldwide working for some aspect of sustainable habitation. Each entry is listed by global region, country, city and so forth in the main directory. Then entries are indexed both by alphabetical name of every group and publication and by a set of 16 categories. TRIP VII costs $25 + P&H and includes a subscription to our update service. Typically, we publish three updates of changes, deletions and additions between entirely new volumes. TRIP is updated continually, on a nearly daily basis. Yankee Permaculture also offers TRIP-on-Disk. There are no volume numbers because each 3.5-inch computer disk we ship is copied from our master database on the day that we process your order. TRIP-on-Disk starts at $50 + P&H depending on the format that you need. Send $1.00 +a #10 SASE or 2 International Return Mail Coupons for an instruction sheet on ordering disks from Yankee Permaculture. Presently, TRIP-on- Disk lists about 2,000 groups and publications. Updates are available at 1/2 the cost of a new disk. TRIP VI Clearance at 80% OFF! We printed too many copies of Volume VI of TRIP. In order to get more copies into people's hands, we are reducing the price to $5 + P&H now for the print version with no frills. We will also supply updates as long as they are in stock. TRIP is our international directory of groups working on issues directly related to permaculture, such as the environment, greens, water, forests, alternative economics, appropriate technology, genetic resources, bioregionalism, sustainable cities, herbalism, sustainable food systems, Earth spirituality, alternative education and of course permaculture itself. Each listing includes the full address and comments, where pertinent, arranged by region. Cross indices by group and publication name, as well as by category of activity (e.g. permaculture publications, forests, etc.) assure that you can find pertinent groups from a variety of starting points. Kourik's Edible Landscaping Book Goes Out of Print, But Damaged Copies Are Available Robert Kourik's outstanding volume, *Designing and Maintaining Your Edible Landscape, Naturally* has gone out of print. However Yankee Permaculture was able to buy Bob's remaining inventory of slightly damaged copies. These are available at $20 while they last. Bob tells us that he expects a new edition to be available in 2 or 3 years, though a publisher was not yet secured the last we heard. We can also provide hardcover copies at $40 each while they last. Both prices require additional P&H as usual. This is one of the books in our extensive permaculture library that we consult the most. I would not be without it. SPECIAL ORDER NEWS Yankee Permaculture publishes a special order catalog, paper #27, that lists all manner of resources for which there is little market,, but which are invaluable to some individuals seeking translations, databases, permaculture designs, permaculture consultation reports, out-of-print public domain publications, and so forth. Elfin Permaculture designs and consultation reports are often listed at 10% of the original fee (always plus P&H) and we have a number of student reports as well, generally priced to cover some of the labor of stocking and order processing. The next addition will be more than 200 pages of report for Maralá, a Paraguayan project with which we collaborate. Appendices including data bases, are offered separately as usual. Send $5.00 if you wish to see a the table of contents, directory of appendices, and list of figures, via email, $10 for us to print them out and send them by physical mail. •YPC TITLES ARE LISTED BY TOPIC ON THE WEB http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html • Ask for Clearance List of Discounted Publications. We have a small number of used, damaged and discontinued publications available at great discounts from our clearance list. Ask for the latest version. Ordering Yankee Permaculture Publications from This Sheet. Some of the publications listed on this sheet may have not yet been added to the Yankee Permaculture Order Form as of this writing. To compute the cost, add the total of publications that you seek, then compute Postage & Handling. P&H costs 10% of purchase price in the US and 20% elsewhere. However there is a minimum of $3.00 P&H on small orders. Pay P&H only for the first $150 of each order. You may combine purchases from this sheet with those from the order form to get the best deal on shipping. If at all possible, please use the order form, even if you only order from this sheet. Simply attach the list of new publications to the order form. The regular YPC order form lists all conditions and procedures. Items ordered from this sheet Item Cost $ $ $ $ $ Postage & Handling* ($3 minimum, pay only on first $150 of order) $ Total Order (US funds only, checks must be drawn on a US Bank.) $ Contribution to meet requests from "Third World" groups, elementary school students, etc. $ TOTAL ENCLOSED. $ _____ This order is not combined with an order on the regular Yankee Permaculture Order Form. I have attached my name and address. Yankee Permaculture, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192-0052 USA. email: * 10 percent of the order to USA addresses, 20 percent to addresses elsewhere. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Dec 10 02:55:33 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA23911 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA05425; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from hades.med.uni-muenchen.de (styx.med.uni-muenchen.de [138.245.1.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05239 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by hades.med.uni-muenchen.de (8.7.4/8.6.12) id IAA29053 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:37:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from medmail.med.uni-muenchen.de(138.244.16.249) by hades.med.uni-muenchen.de via smap (V1.3) id sma029046; Thu Dec 10 08:37:51 1998 Received: from gchf8n (gchf8n.gch.med.uni-muenchen.de [138.244.36.18]) by medmail.Med.UNI-Muenchen.DE (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17831 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:37:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <366F7A4C.8B2231A7@gch.med.uni-muenchen.de> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:37:48 +0100 From: Inge Wilberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [de] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Practical training X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reply-To: Inge.Wilberg@gch.med.uni-muenchen.de Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Hello, I would like to study horticulture in two years. But before I can start I need a three monthes practicalt training. I think I want to do an one year one in a foreighn country to get enough practise in that kind of work and in English or Spanish. I´m a German and would like a practical training place in South America, Great Britain, America, Canada or New Zealand. I´m very interested in organic horticulture and permaculture. Maybe there is someone who can help me. I would like to start October 1999. At moment I work in a university clinic as documentation assistent. Thanks, Inge -- ÐÏࡱá From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Dec 10 09:03:25 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26936 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24324; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:50:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24105; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:48:16 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur@aol.com Received: from Permacltur@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 0IEKa19904; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:52:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4dfe4fc5.366fd21a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:52:26 EST To: Inge.Wilberg@gch.med.uni-muenchen.de, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Practical training Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id IAA24106 Reply-To: Permacltur@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 In a message dated 12/10/98 7:42:03 AM, you wrote: <> Greetings Inge: The first place that comes to mind is our cooperating permaculture center in Paraguay, Maralá. It is operated by a Swiss couple who speak German as their native tongue, as well as a number of other European languages and some Guraní. I have just sent them an extensive permaculture consulting report of more than 230 pages based on a visit in August that I made and they are on the verge of taking action. To contact them, email stelvio@hotmail.com Their email address has been quiet lately, so if you don't get results contact me privately and I will give you a mail address. Bear in mind that the nearest city with email services is 50 km away over very poor roads at first and then very congested roads (for which they do not have a car or truck), so they get to read their email no oftener than once a week, and sometimes far less often. Here at Barking Frogs Permaculture Center in Florida we also have internships. We can discuss those privately with you if you wish, however I think that the Paraguayan situation might be even better. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 11 02:51:49 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA14419 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24302; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f163.hotmail.com [207.82.251.49]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23264 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2874 invoked by uid 0); 11 Dec 1998 07:33:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19981211073350.2873.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.26.202.107 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:33:47 PST X-Originating-IP: [207.26.202.107] From: "john valenzuela" To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Hawai'i Island Permaculture Design and Deep Ecology Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:33:47 PST Reply-To: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 Permaculture Design and Deep Ecology at La'a Kea Permaculture Gardens on the Big Island of Hawai'i January 3 to 24, 1999 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The course: This three week basic permaculture design course and skills intensive will balance classroom presentation with field demonstrations and "hands in the dirt" practice. It is a great opportunity to experience first hand one of the best examples of permaculture in Hawai'i, while learning from some of the most experienced permaculture teachers and designers from both Hawai'i and the U.S. mainland. Our Deep Ecology program facilitated by Dr. Beatrix Pfleiderer, is a process oriented exploration of our individual and collective connection to Earth. The site: La'a Kea Permaculture Gardens is a 25 acre demonstration farm and education center. We are located in the rain forest on the slopes of the most active volcano in the world, Kilauea. Active lava flows enter the ocean 10 miles from the farm. This area is also well known for its agricultural abundance since ancient times, which evolved from the traditional Hawaiian sustainable land use system, known as the ahupua'a. We are growing many traditional hawaiian crops including food plants, medicinal and fiber plants. Additionally we have plantings of many other species from around the world, including over seventy fruit varieties, and sixteen bamboo sp. Integrated systems on the ground include intensive annual and perennial gardens, green manure hedgerow alley cropping, orchard and agroforestry plantings, animal forage systems, ponds for aquaculture and fertility, "off the grid" power systems, and more. Instructors: Ken Boche M.A., the owner and operator of a diversified nursery, an experienced permaculture consultant and teacher, and community organizer who specializes on the "invisible structures" of permaculture. With a degree in biogeography, Ken has taught environmental field studies through U.C. Santa Cruz. Doug Bullock, a landscape and homestead designer, nurseryman and world traveler with extensive experience in all aspects of permaculture design and installation. Doug, with his brothers, have created one of the best examples of permaculture in North America on Orcas Island, Washington state. Lonnie Gamble, the president of Hydroelectric Power Development Co. specializing in wind, solar thermal, biomass, and photovoltaic energy systems. Don May, the manager of La'a Kea Gardens and a permaculture design consultant and teacher with over 15 years of practical farming and landscaping experience, including market gardening and integrated orchard design and management. Beatrix Pfleiderer, Ph.D. a medical anthropologist and transpersonal psychotherapist who specializes in deep ecology, ecopsychology, and group consciousness work. She has traveled through out the world studying healing cults and ritual, and now calls Hawai'i home. John Valenzuela, a horticulturist and educator based in Hawai'i who works with adults and youth in Hawai'i and California. His specialties are home gardens, trees, ethnobotany, plant collecting and propagation, with experience in California doing reforestation, growing and marketing organic produce, and urban gardening. In addition, we will have many guest presenters from around the state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For registration and transportation information contact: La'a Kea Permaculture Gardens Phone number: (808)965-0178 Email: laakea@ilhawaii.net Or visit our web site at: Http://www.permaculture-hawaii.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Dec 16 09:53:48 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07132 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06876; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:38:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06420 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbag.com (msn-1-16.x2.binc.net [198.70.31.16]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA23997 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:41:19 -0600 Message-ID: <3677C632.9B0CF8EE@mailbag.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:39:47 -0600 From: Mark and Kelly Ludwig Organization: McFarland, WI X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Permaculture for farms - input for workshop Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5B1C70D9BCCD6B8A4F61D5AF" Reply-To: mnkludwig@mailbag.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5B1C70D9BCCD6B8A4F61D5AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, My name is Mark Ludwig, I manage a small grass based dairy in southern Wisconsin (USA). I am giving an all day workshop on PC in March with another fellow to a group of 50 (or so) organic farmers from the upper midwest. We gave a shorter version of this last year and it seemed to go well. I have joined this list mostly to stimulate my thinking for the development of this workshop. Along those lines, I am open to suggestions of resources to list for these folks, topics you may want me to consider etc. etc. My primary contribution to the workshop is my background in ecosystem restoration, grass based farming and medium scale organic/biological production of grain. The other guy (Mark Shepard) has a background in agroforestry and vegetable production. We will of course touch on all aspects of PC and try to place them in a practical farm context. All comments public and private are welcome. Thanks Mark Ludwig McFarland WI --------------5B1C70D9BCCD6B8A4F61D5AF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mnkludwig.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Mark and Kelly Ludwig Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mnkludwig.vcf" begin:vcard n:Ludwig;Mark & Kelly tel;home:(608) 835-0332 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Junck Family Farm;Grass-based dairy/Jerseys & crossbreds adr:;;4256 County Hwy B;McFarland;WI;53558-9751;USA version:2.1 email;internet:mnkludwig@mailbag.com title:Operator x-mozilla-cpt:;-22064 fn:Mark & Kelly Ludwig end:vcard --------------5B1C70D9BCCD6B8A4F61D5AF-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Dec 16 12:01:48 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10009 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25955; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25415 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 156.46.73.209 (ppp81.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.209]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA00655 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:51:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <367791E9.3BEF@mwt.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:56:46 +0000 From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: Permaculture for farms - input for workshop References: <3677C632.9B0CF8EE@mailbag.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 Mark, Im hoping that you are thinking of integrating your knowledge about tall grass prairie restoration into the model of the new farm. After spending much of the fall collecting 75 odd species that grow in the area Im amazed at how easily this seed is come by, & also what great possibilities it has for supplemental income. & some of these species have medicinal, food & economic potentials. Dreamtime is discussing the possibility of having a day long gathering on prairies & permaculture in the summer of 99 & it would be great if you could help out on this one. One additional thought to your query is that Im fascinated by solar barns that integrate a polyculture of animals with a greenhouse system of perennials, trees & fish. Do you know of anyone in the upper midwest trying out these ideas. Ive seen a number of designs but have yet to visit a functioning system. Miekal And Dreamtime Village From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 18 10:17:31 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14585 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06152; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05635 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbag.com (msn-1-17.x2.binc.net [198.70.31.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16441 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:08:08 -0600 Message-ID: <367A6F77.5D7E1F6A@mailbag.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:06:31 -0600 From: Mark and Kelly Ludwig Organization: McFarland, WI X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: permaculture list Subject: IS anyone out there? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D709AB14EA0B732E854AF0D7" Reply-To: mnkludwig@mailbag.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D709AB14EA0B732E854AF0D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELLO! is this an active list or what? No one wants to tell me anything to say to 50 farmers? The news ain't worth watching, lets get back to saving the world here. Mark Ludwig --------------D709AB14EA0B732E854AF0D7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mnkludwig.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Mark and Kelly Ludwig Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mnkludwig.vcf" begin:vcard n:Ludwig;Mark & Kelly tel;home:(608) 835-0332 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Junck Family Farm;Grass-based dairy/Jerseys & crossbreds adr:;;4256 County Hwy B;McFarland;WI;53558-9751;USA version:2.1 email;internet:mnkludwig@mailbag.com title:Operator x-mozilla-cpt:;-22064 fn:Mark & Kelly Ludwig end:vcard --------------D709AB14EA0B732E854AF0D7-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 18 12:51:33 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17371 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28174; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail2.greenbuilder.com [206.160.220.154]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27734 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([206.160.220.151] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000059807 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:40:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 11:56:04 CDT From: XINCLXpermaculture-mg@txinfinet.com (permaculture-mg Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? To: permaculture@envirolink.org Message-ID: <5861206.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Priority: normal X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: XINCLXpermaculture-mg@txinfinet.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 mnkludwig@mailbag.com writes: >HELLO! is this an active list or what? No one wants to tell me anything >to say to 50 farmers? The news ain't worth watching, lets get back to >saving the world here. It's not super-active... and things tend to slow down online around christmas anyway. Permies are not well known for being particularly active online to begin with, so give it a week or so before you get impatient. I am not personally familiar with dairy production, so I don't feel particularly qualified to address your original questions. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 18 14:42:51 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19996 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14390; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from send106.yahoomail.com (send106.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.43]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14215 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:30:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19981218193644.1051.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Received: from [199.6.60.65] by send106.yahoomail.com; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:36:44 PST Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Emily St.Clair -olive-" Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? To: permaculture@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: oliveemily@yahoo.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 Hi, i also did not want to reply to your post either, because i do not have any interest in dairy, since i am vegan. anyway, i have been listening to what everyone has to post for a while, and have not contributed anything, because i was just trying to find out stuff about permaculture. But, i want to see if i can get some help here. This spring, my parents are giving me 1/4 of their garden (which will be about 500 sq. ft.) to plant whatever i like and however i like. i am a college student and will be in school over the summer, so will not have a tremendous amount of time to spend in the garden, but nevertheless, i am planning on having raised beds and following permaculture guidelines. I have a book that i am reading right now, called "how to grow more vegetables... on less land than you ever thought possible" (or something like that). Anyway, i would like to get some suggestions on how to start. this book says that compost is a very important step, but since i am just starting this year, i have no compost, and my parents are not being helpful, it is really up to me. Also, i want to record my progress and problems here to see if anyone has any advice, i need a lot of help! well, hope to hear from anyone soon. ...olive :) ---"permaculture-mg Conference @ txinfinet.com" wrote: > > mnkludwig@mailbag.com writes: > > >HELLO! is this an active list or what? No one wants to tell me anything > >to say to 50 farmers? The news ain't worth watching, lets get back to > >saving the world here. > > It's not super-active... and things tend to slow down online around christmas > anyway. Permies are not well known for being particularly active online to > begin with, so give it a week or so before you get impatient. > > I am not personally familiar with dairy production, so I don't feel > particularly qualified to address your original questions. > > BC > > > -- > > Bill Christensen > billc@greenbuilder.com > Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective > Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 > WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 18 14:47:29 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20065 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15088; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from crilling.telmex.net.mx (crilling.telmex.net.mx [200.33.150.130]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14931 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [148.233.186.169] ("port 2048"@[148.233.186.169]) by sims01.telmex.net.mx (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F4600A96D0PS3@sims01.telmex.net.mx> for permaculture@envirolink.org; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:05:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:09:47 -0600 From: Guillermo Romero Subject: Re: Fw: Johnny's Selected (Genetically Engineered) Seeds? No Way! To: permaculture@envirolink.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id OAA14933 Reply-To: romerog@col1.telmex.net.mx Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 Dear Permaculturists: Here is more info on the Johnny's and Biotech issue. (the bellow info comes from my postings to the BD-Now list). >The only additional info I have is the parragraph on the subjec that is on page 3 of Johnny's Selected Seeds 1999 Commercial Catalog, here is the transcript: > >"Biothechnology and Johnny's > >We will inform you in a variety's description if it was bred with the assistance of the controversial technique of gene splicing. >At present, in this catalog, we offer no such varieties. Every variety in this catalog was developed using the traditional breeding methods of controlled mating and selection, as well as new methods of tissue and cell culture. We are open minded about the new gene splicing science, where a person moves DNA mechanically from one cell to another. We intend to consider the resulting new varieties one at the time, and to present them to you in a fashion that lets you decide for yourself." > > > >From this it seems that Johnny's will have GA seed for sale avail in their catalog no sooner than the year 2000. > >I wrote to them for more information on the subject, and here is what Rob J. Reply: > >Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:25:53 -0500 >From: robjohnston@johnnyseeds.com >Subject: Re: Fw: Johnny's Selected (Genetically Engineered) Seeds? No Way! >X-Sender: staff@johnnyseeds.com (Unverified) >To: Guillermo Romero >MIME-version: 1.0 > >Dear Gardener: > >Thank you for your e-mail this week about biotechnology and seeds. > >You are not alone in your concern. At Johnny's we have received many >dozens of letters this week. We will be writing you a proper answer within >two weeks. Until then, know that we have heard you and that your comments >are useful to our learning about this complex subject. > >Truly yours, >Robert L. Johnston, Jr. >Johnny's Selected Seeds >Founder and Chairman Guillermo Romero I. Comala, Colima, MEXICO From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Dec 18 22:48:28 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26424 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27626; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27511 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbag.com (msn-1-33.x2.binc.net [198.70.31.33]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA02546; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:38:34 -0600 Message-ID: <367B1F57.A135F37D@mailbag.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:36:55 -0600 From: Mark and Kelly Ludwig Organization: McFarland, WI X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: oliveemily@yahoo.com, permaculture list Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? References: <19981218193644.1051.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1240B9F96071A7AB8F5BEF74" Reply-To: mnkludwig@mailbag.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1240B9F96071A7AB8F5BEF74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emily et.al. Perhaps I'm not being clear, I know how to run a dairy, I'm fishing for ideas, examples and resources beyond my expertise for a workshop to be given to a broad range of organic farmers, not just dairy folks. As to what to do with Emily's garden space, I gather you won't have much time to invest in this space this year. For this reason most typical veggies will fail to thrive due to weeds. I would cover crop your area, maybe in buckwheat or hairy vetch and get it prepped for next year. The only veggies that come to mind that will make it relatively untended are winter squashes, jerusalem artichokes or possibly tomatoes or other transplanted crops if you mulch um and cage um before you abandon them. You could consider growing grain crops in this space if you are willing to thrash them next fall. Mark Ludwig "Emily St.Clair -olive-" wrote: > Hi, i also did not want to reply to your post either, because i do not > have any interest in dairy, since i am vegan. > > anyway, i have been listening to what everyone has to post for a > while, and have not contributed anything, because i was just trying to > find out stuff about permaculture. > > But, i want to see if i can get some help here. This spring, my > parents are giving me 1/4 of their garden (which will be about 500 sq. > ft.) to plant whatever i like and however i like. i am a college > student and will be in school over the summer, so will not have a > tremendous amount of time to spend in the garden, but nevertheless, i > am planning on having raised beds and following permaculture > guidelines. I have a book that i am reading right now, called "how to > grow more vegetables... on less land than you ever thought possible" > (or something like that). Anyway, i would like to get some suggestions > on how to start. this book says that compost is a very important step, > but since i am just starting this year, i have no compost, and my > parents are not being helpful, it is really up to me. Also, i want to > record my progress and problems here to see if anyone has any advice, > i need a lot of help! > > well, hope to hear from anyone soon. > > ...olive :) > > ---"permaculture-mg Conference @ txinfinet.com" > wrote: > > > > mnkludwig@mailbag.com writes: > > > > >HELLO! is this an active list or what? No one wants to tell me > anything > > >to say to 50 farmers? The news ain't worth watching, lets get back to > > >saving the world here. > > > > It's not super-active... and things tend to slow down online around > christmas > > anyway. Permies are not well known for being particularly active > online to > > begin with, so give it a week or so before you get impatient. > > > > I am not personally familiar with dairy production, so I don't feel > > particularly qualified to address your original questions. > > > > BC > > > > > > -- > > > > Bill Christensen > > billc@greenbuilder.com > > Sustainable Building Sourcebook at > http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental > Perspective > > Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 > > WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com --------------1240B9F96071A7AB8F5BEF74 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mnkludwig.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Mark and Kelly Ludwig Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mnkludwig.vcf" begin:vcard n:Ludwig;Mark & Kelly tel;home:(608) 835-0332 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Junck Family Farm;Grass-based dairy/Jerseys & crossbreds adr:;;4256 County Hwy B;McFarland;WI;53558-9751;USA version:2.1 email;internet:mnkludwig@mailbag.com title:Operator x-mozilla-cpt:;-22064 fn:Mark & Kelly Ludwig end:vcard --------------1240B9F96071A7AB8F5BEF74-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Dec 19 09:51:03 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00231 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:51:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27865; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27795; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:37:14 -0500 (EST) From: Elfpermacl@aol.com Received: from Elfpermacl@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SKAAa23517; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:42:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:42:24 EST To: mnkludwig@mailbag.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, oliveemily@yahoo.com, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 In a message dated 12/19/98 3:42:18 AM, mnkludwig@mailbag.com wrote: <> OK Mark: Looks Iike it is up to me. I paste our one-day workshop outline below and then explain. I've never liked events shorter than a weekend for presenting permaculture because a weekend is the smallest period in which I can get a group some solid experience in working on a design. Since permaculture requires thinking in another way, it is important for people to at least experience that way of thinking to communicate what we are talking about. Here's the outline: One Day Workshop Time Event 9-9:30 am Introductions. Discuss format. 9:30-11:30 Introductory slides. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Dec 21 09:28:10 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21762 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07762; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from tkc.att.ne.jp (tkc.att.ne.jp [165.76.16.7]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09460 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (92.pool3.tokyo.att.ne.jp [165.76.20.107]) by tkc.att.ne.jp (8.8.8+Spin/3.6Wbeta7-CONS(11/18/98)) id NAA03581; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:20 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <003c01be2c99$15ee26a0$6b144ca5@default> From: "Paul and Sandra" To: "Permaculture Listserve Posting" , Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:18:21 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Reply-To: crows@tkc.att.ne.jp Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Questions (more given > more received) What are you hoping to offer these people? What are they expecting? What are the problems that are at the forefront of their minds? Can you have a follow up event that allows people to do some reflecting/research and then get back together? What setting will the workshop take place in? How long is the workshop? sound like the student/PCist ration is 25:1, and one day to boot. The real challange may well be in peoples intentions. Are these people thinking "what can Pc do for the margins of my organic farming business?" There is the difference between what you want to teach and what the individual experiences. What are these people going to be doing with their gray matter for the 6-16 hours you are together. Start by telling what you what to do, how you want to do it, why your way is important and what difference you want to make in their way of thinking, then see if the format suits the students. Democratic education does not mean lack of leadership, but it does mean that the process is as important as the content. Morning: Have pictures, slides, topos of your site, lots of pens and a role of low impact paper (roll ends from newspaper presses work great) present theory through applied examples. Give a condensed pack of printed information with large margins and let people break into smaller groups and analyse your theory, rip it apart and put it back together. Most people rely on lecture format to much. I can read faster and with greater clarity then you can talk. Get to know why these people are there. Deconstruct the kinds of systems they are living in. Brainstorm the problems they percieve and use them for part II. Eat together Afternoon Evening: A series of design problems and reveiw sessions. One excercise in group process i have used is assigning roles, people can sort themselves based on percieved dispositions, so as to have diverse design teams. (1 person finds everything wrong, one person thinks up new ideas, one person records and asks questions...) Or give each person a principle that they are responsible for advocating in the small group design session. Run it fast, and have the same problem attacked by several groups, then give presentations, make sure every participant has a chance to play every role. Finish with social (music and food) contra dance? Good Luck Paul Cereghino - crows@tkc.att.ne.jp - Tokyo -----Original Message----- From: Mark and Kelly Ludwig To: oliveemily@yahoo.com ; permaculture list Date: Saturday, December 19, 1998 12:45 PM Subject: Re: IS anyone out there? >Emily et.al. >Perhaps I'm not being clear, I know how to run a dairy, I'm fishing for ideas, >examples and resources beyond my expertise for a workshop to be given to a broad >range of organic farmers, not just dairy folks. >As to what to do with Emily's garden space, I gather you won't have much time to >invest in this space this year. For this reason most typical veggies will fail to >thrive due to weeds. I would cover crop your area, >maybe in buckwheat or hairy vetch and get it prepped for next year. The only >veggies that come to mind that will make it relatively untended are winter >squashes, jerusalem artichokes or possibly tomatoes or other transplanted crops if >you mulch um and cage um before you abandon them. You could consider growing >grain crops in this space if you are willing to thrash them next fall. >Mark Ludwig > >"Emily St.Clair -olive-" wrote: > >> Hi, i also did not want to reply to your post either, because i do not >> have any interest in dairy, since i am vegan. >> >> anyway, i have been listening to what everyone has to post for a >> while, and have not contributed anything, because i was just trying to >> find out stuff about permaculture. >> >> But, i want to see if i can get some help here. This spring, my >> parents are giving me 1/4 of their garden (which will be about 500 sq. >> ft.) to plant whatever i like and however i like. i am a college >> student and will be in school over the summer, so will not have a >> tremendous amount of time to spend in the garden, but nevertheless, i >> am planning on having raised beds and following permaculture >> guidelines. I have a book that i am reading right now, called "how to >> grow more vegetables... on less land than you ever thought possible" >> (or something like that). Anyway, i would like to get some suggestions >> on how to start. this book says that compost is a very important step, >> but since i am just starting this year, i have no compost, and my >> parents are not being helpful, it is really up to me. Also, i want to >> record my progress and problems here to see if anyone has any advice, >> i need a lot of help! >> >> well, hope to hear from anyone soon. >> >> ...olive :) >> >> ---"permaculture-mg Conference @ txinfinet.com" >> wrote: >> > >> > mnkludwig@mailbag.com writes: >> > >> > >HELLO! is this an active list or what? No one wants to tell me >> anything >> > >to say to 50 farmers? The news ain't worth watching, lets get back to >> > >saving the world here. >> > >> > It's not super-active... and things tend to slow down online around >> christmas >> > anyway. Permies are not well known for being particularly active >> online to >> > begin with, so give it a week or so before you get impatient. >> > >> > I am not personally familiar with dairy production, so I don't feel >> > particularly qualified to address your original questions. >> > >> > BC >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Bill Christensen >> > billc@greenbuilder.com >> > Sustainable Building Sourcebook at >> http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ >> > >> ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- >> > Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental >> Perspective >> > Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 >> > WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com >> > >> > >> >> __________________________________________________ _______ >> DO YOU YAHOO!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Dec 21 10:37:29 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23062 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14793; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from send104.yahoomail.com (send104.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.122]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09972 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:42:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19981221144902.6958.rocketmail@send104.yahoomail.com> Received: from [199.6.60.65] by send104.yahoomail.com; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:49:02 PST Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:49:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Emily St.Clair -olive-" Subject: Replies: To: permaculture@envirolink.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reply-To: oliveemily@yahoo.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Thank you everyone for replying, i will surely consider everyone's advice. I have gotten alot of good advice, and i think I have more to go on now: -From John: >I edit the Pc Directory - Tell me where you live & >I'll >give you info >on what Pc folks live near you... I live in southern Ohio, one hour south-east of Cincinnati. -From Jeff: >"double-digging", which is an intensive way of raising >up a bed, and >makes esp. root crops very happy. yes, i read about this in the book i have, and have considered this, although i will have to probably do more research, and see if my parents have the tools specified. >mulch/"lasagna" beds, putting newspaper and mulch >where you want your >beds, planting into small holes and furrows (great for >tomatoes, >peppers, except you might wait till the soil is pretty >warmed up) and >building up beds by mulching each year. this i can probably do, since my parents already use plenty of newspaper for tomatoes. This past year, my parents got the garden planted really late because it was very rainy, will this have any effect on the yeild of the crops? >The permaculture part comes in the design, knowing >where the sun, the >wind, your water supply, where you'll be the most, >etc, and using those >and inter-relationships among the plants to design >your garden. I will have to learn more about this too. -From Victoria: >Where do you live? What kind of soil will you be >working with? Southern Ohio, the soil is good, so my dad says, they have been using this garden for about 18 years, and the soil in the beginning was clayey, but it is now good. >I have had excellent success creating raised beds >using Mollison's >sheet >mulching technique. i will have to see if i can find some information about this. -From Loren: >Would you object to using things like animal manures >in your compost? >I compost with fair quantities of horse manure, which >the local >stables are happy to let me haul away at no charge. >There are >alternatives, mostly involving things like grass >clippings and clover >and alfalfa meal to get your nitrogen for the compost, >if you don't >want to use animal manures. I could nmaybe have access to horse manure, but i am not sure. Someone also said that i could just buy compost from gardening stores, if i do not have enough for this season. >Applying Permaculture principles to a small garden is >challenging. >You can do things like companion plant, succession >plant (grow clover >in your garden beds now, then turn it under in the >spring for nitrogen >before you plant the next thing), and create or take >advantage of >microclimates of sun and shadow to grow things that >need either heat >or coolth. Yes, and i should find more info on that, but maybe the clover thing could be done... -From Mark: >I gather you won't have >much time to >invest in this space this year. For this reason most >typical veggies >will fail to >thrive due to weeds. My parents have been growing plenty of vegetables for 18 years, so there is no problem with growing anything, i just want to use permaculture techniques with my space from now on. I want to try, that is the least i can do. Well, i will be posting more, and still give suggestions, PLEASE! Thank You everyone!!! ...olive :) (Emily) http://members.tripod.com/environmentwl _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Dec 28 17:51:52 1998 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04654 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09750; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f73.hotmail.com [207.82.250.159]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09555 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 24436 invoked by uid 0); 28 Dec 1998 22:41:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19981228224127.24435.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.26.202.122 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:41:26 PST X-Originating-IP: [207.26.202.122] From: "john valenzuela" To: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Kaua'i Island Permaculture Design Course Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:41:26 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 (Please excuse any duplicate messages) Permaculture Design Course on the Island of Kaua'i, Hawai'i A two week intensive in sustainable systems design February 28 to March 14, 1999 --------------------------------------------------------------------- This year we are in Kaua'i, known as the Garden Isle, which has a rich tradition of native agriculture and the sustainable land use system known as the ahupua'a. It is also the home of the first organic farmers organization in the state, the National Tropical Botanical Gardens and some very innovative aquaculture, agroforestry and tropical hard wood plantings. The island has recovered well from hurricane Iniki, with many lessons in planning for disaster. We will have many hands on projects and field trips to turn theory into practical application. Instructors: This same teaching team led a very successful design course last year on the island of Moloka'i. Michael Pilarski- founder Friends of the Trees Society, permaculture educator writer and networker, editor of "Agroforestry Guide to Hawai'i" and "Restoration Forestry: An International Guide to Sustainable Forestry Practices" He is also an avid wildcrafter of medicinal herbs. Doug Bullock- horticulturist and world traveler, along with his two brothers, Doug has developed on of the best permaculture model properties in the U.S., located on Orcas Island in north west Washington state (as seen in 'The Global Gardener' video) Bruce Hill- raised in Argentina, has lived and travelled in other South American countries. He currently lives in Maui where he has been instrumental in the development of the Kanahena Farm and propagates a wide variety of useful plants. John Valenzuela- horticulturist and educator based on the Big Island of Hawai'i where he specializes in home gardens, trees, ethnobotany, and plant propagation. He also has experience in California with reforestation, growing and marketing organic produce, and urban gardening. In addition, there will be many guest speakers participating. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For registration contact: Eden Hurlston, PO Box 1026, Kilauea HI, 96754 Phone numbers: 808-822-1725 or 800-767-3393 ext 5026 For site questions contact: Ray Maki, Permaculture Kaua'i Farm, PO Box 498, Kilauea HI, 96754 Phone number: 808-634-5412, email: unipacifica@hawaiian.net For curriculum questions contact: Michael Pilarski, Friends of the Trees Society, PO Box 4469, Bellingham WA, 98227 Phone number:360-724-0503 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Jan 7 18:42:50 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17701 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00403; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.triax.com (postoffice@mail.triax.com [209.222.164.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00020 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyrix-166 ([209.222.163.77]) by mail.triax.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-41958U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAC7379 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990107151710.007db470@pop.igc.apc.org> X-Sender: bcarter@pop.igc.apc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 15:17:10 -0800 To: permaculture@envirolink.org From: Barry Carter Subject: Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bcarter@igc.apc.org Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Dear Friends, I am new to this forum and I would like to introduce myself and introduce some new information on soil and biological systems. I work as a forest activist. I have always been concerned about the damage that logging does to soils. Some of my writing on this subject can be found on our web page at: http://www.triax.com/bmnfa/soil.htm Many of the problems with forest soils are also problems with agricultural soils. I have also been an organic gardener for about half of my 50 years and I understand the necessity of providing trace elements and other nutrients which are not provided by chemical fertilizers. In 1995 I learned about some materials which are difficult to identify using conventional methods but which appear to be essential to many biological systems. We call these materials ORMUS or m-state elements at the suggestion of a couple of their modern discoverers. One of these modern discoverers, a gentleman named David Hudson, has patented some of the ORMUS elements and one process for obtaining them. Transcripts of several of Hudson's lectures on this subject are available on the web at: http://209.17.143.141/ormus/presentations/present.htm When he discovered these elements, Hudson was a cotton farmer using conventional agricultural methods but his discovery promises to revolutionize agriculture and biological sciences in general. Recently, I heard about Dr. Philip S. Callahan and his discoveries regarding paramagnetic soils. Though most folks on this forum are probably familiar with Dr. Callahan, I will briefly recapitulate some of the high spots of his discoveries. About thirty years ago Dr. Callahan discovered that the best soils for growing things were paramagnetic. He developed an inexpensive instrument for measuring paramagnetism in soil and tested soils extensively for this property. He postulates that paramagnetic soils facilitate the flow of atmospheric electromagnetic forces from the atmosphere to plants. He has done many scientific demonstrations of this phenomenon. According to Dr. Callahan, certain geometric structures can also enhance this energy flow.(1) The biggest problem with Dr. Callahan's theory is that he has been unable to positively identify all of the elements in the soil which are paramagnetic. I believe that the ORMUS elements are the key to understanding paramagnetic soils. Like the paramagnetic elements in soil the ORMUS elements are difficult to identify using conventional spectroscopic or chemical analysis. In order to explain more of the correlations between paramagnetic soil and the ORMUS elements, it would be helpful for me to explain more about these elements. This explanation is a bit technical but I will try to keep it simple. Certain metallic elements have a non-metallic state with the following characteristics. Their electrons are paired up into what are called "Cooper pairs". These Cooper paired electrons are not available as valence electrons and therefore do not form molecular bonds. An atom must be able to bond to other atoms of the same element in order to be metallic. Cooper pairing is one of the prerequisites of superconductivity and the ORMUS form, of these elements, is generally superconductive. Though physicists have been searching in vain for high temperature superconductors, i.e. materials which are superconductive at room temperature and above, biologists have known for a long time that superconductive effects can be observed in living organisms. Cooper pairing and superconductivity are generally considered to be properties associated with Bose-Einstein Condensates or (BECs). BECs are substances which are constituted of many atoms but which behave as a single atom. The common current belief among physicists is that BECs are not stable much above absolute zero or in a superconductive matrix structure. We think that our observations disprove this belief. The Cooper-pairing of the electrons in these atoms or diatoms appears to create a Meissner effect around each atom/diatom unit. This Meissner field provides a non-local quantum connection between other nearby ORMUS units so that together they exhibit behavior which follows the rules of quantum mechanics. If you have great piles of these monatom/diatom units you can observe quantum physical behavior at classical physics scales. This postulated behavior would account for the observed properties of superconductivity, tunneling, superfluidity and difficulty of spectroscopic identification. Superconductors can exhibit paramagnetic or diamagnetic properties depending on how much energy they are storing. The Meissner effect and another phenomenon connected with superconductivity, called Josephson tunneling, have been observed in biological systems by various scientists over the years. Hudson cites the following papers in his lectures: Evidence from Activation Energies for Superconductive Tunneling in Biological Systems at Physiological Temperatures Physiological Chemistry and Physics 3 1971 Bio-chemistry laboratory U.S. Naval Air Development Center, Pennsylvania. Reference: pp. 403-410 "For several biological systems involving nerve or growth processes the square of the activation energy is a linear function of temperature over a moderate range of physiological temperatures. This behavior may be predicted from the hypothesis that the rate of biological process is controlled by single electron tunneling between micro-regions of superconductivity. Superconductivity has been observed. It's responsible for nerve and growth processes." Magnetic Flux Quantization and Josephson Behavior in Living Systems Physica Scripta Vol. 40, 1989 E. Del Giudice, S. Doglia, M. Milani, C. W. Smith, G. Vitiello Reference: pp. 786-791 "Abstract: The proposal of coherent electromagnetic processes as the engine of biological dynamics suggests that Josephson effects could be present in living cells. Positive experimental evidence is reported and discussed." Biological Sensitivity to Weak Magnetic Fields Due to Biological Superconductive Josephson Junctions Physiological Chemistry and Physics 5, 1973 Reference: pp. 173-176 "Summary: Various species of organisms can detect weak magnetic fields from .1 to 5 gauss. Indirect evidence suggests that electron tunneling may occur across junctions between superconducting micro regions in living systems. Man made superconducting Josephson junctions have been fabricated with magnetic sensitivity as high as 10-11 gauss. It is suggested that superconducting Josephson junctions in living systems may provide a physical mechanism with more than enough sensitivity to explain the observed responses of organisms to weak magnetic fields." There is evidence that the ORMUS elements are present in living cells. Hudson has assayed brain tissue for these elements and found that the ORMUS iridium and rhodium are both present at about 2.5% each (by dry matter weight). The ORMUS elements have been found in most of the plant and animal tissues which have been examined.(2) We hypothesize that the ORMUS elements determine some of the properties of the water or "tubulin" inside the microtubules in every cell. Hameroff and Penrose have proposed that microtubules are the site of a "quantum collapse" in which information from multiple universes is "collapsed" into a "conscious selection" or decision.(3) Sequences of these decisions makes up the consciousness of the cell and interactions between many cells makes up the consciousness of an organism. In this way problems which would require as many decisions as there are atoms in the known universe can be solved using "calculations" performed in an infinite number of other universes.(4) We also hypothesize that the ORMUS elements in the tubulin inside microtubules create resonance connections between the cells of all living organisms. Some of my colleagues have developed experimental processes which conclusively demonstrate that non-physical information (what Rupert Sheldrake calls the morphogenic field and David Bohm called the implicate order) can determine the color of an ORMUS solution. The following elements have been positively identified as having an ORMUS or m-state: Magnesium Calcium Iron Cobalt Nickel Copper Ruthenium Rhodium Palladium Silver Rhenium Osmium Iridium Platinum Gold Mercury Many of these elements are called precious metals because in their metallic state they are quite rare. Early research on these elements indicates that they are over 7000 times more common in the m-state than in the metallic state. So, how well do these properties match up with Dr. Callahan's paramagnetic soils? Dr. Callahan claims that the paramagnetic soils are best built from volcanic or limestone materials. The m-state elements are most common in volcanic and limestone rock. Paramagnetic soils exhibit paramagnetic properties. The ORMUS elements also exhibit paramagnetic properties. Dr. Callahan claims that the paramagnetic soils help to couple plants to at atmospheric electromagnetic energy. The ORMUS elements provide a superconductive resonance coupling effect inside biological systems. The paramagnetic substances in soil have not been definitely identified. The ORMUS elements cannot be identified using conventional spectroscopic and chemical assay methods. Mining companies have determined that paramagnetic properties are associated with the precious metals.(5) They are also familiar with the ORMUS elements and ORMUS theory.(6) They are using this knowledge to find and extract precious metals from unassayable desert dirts.(7) There are several other properties that the paramagnetic soils have in common with the m-state elements. As we explore these correlations we will be able to make more definitive statements about a unified understanding of the relationship between these two classes of materials. It is possible to isolate the m-state elements from rock or sea water using some very simple techniques.(8) I believe that as we integrate the knowledge that has been gained by people who are testing Dr. Callihan's ideas with the knowledge that we are gaining from our study of the ORMUS elements, we will see a revolution in our understanding of agriculture and biological systems in general. I recently spoke with Dr. Callahan and he is quite supportive of the idea that paramagnetic soils get many of their properties from the presence of the ORMUS elements. (1) Paramagnetism: Rediscovering nature's secret force of growth - http://members.tripod.com/~poetpiet/guest_appearances/paramagnetism.htm (2) Natural Sources of ORMUS Materials - http://209.17.143.141/ormus/Health/sources.htm (3) Orchestrated Objective Reduction of Quantum Coherence in Brain Microtubules: The "Orch OR" Model for Consciousness - http://www.u.arizona.edu/~hameroff/penrose1.html (4) Brain Tennis - http://www.hotwired.com/synapse/braintennis/97/41/index0a.html (5) http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8889/research.html (6) Profit Technologies - http://profit-technologies.zq.com/ (7) SW Desert Gold Rush, Platinum Desert Dirts - http://www.sentex.net/~resource/swdesert.html (8) ORMUS Production Methods - http://209.17.143.141/ormus/ORMUS/ormus2.htm -- With kindest regards, Barry Carter Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance WEB Page: http://www.triax.com/bmnfa/index.htm Voice: 541-523-3357 Fax: 541-523-9438 Stupidity got us into this mess -- why can't it get us out? From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Jan 12 22:25:59 1999 Received: from envirolink.org ([208.195.208.7] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10324 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:25:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14104; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from x17.boston.juno.com (x17.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.29]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13279 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:11:14 -0500 (EST) From: michaellockman@juno.com Received: (from michaellockman@juno.com) by x17.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DYTGM8MU; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:10:43 EST To: permaculture@envirolink.org Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <19990112.190617.-133013.13.michaellockman@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,8-12,20-24,29-31,33-38 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: michaellockman@juno.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 1999 Hands-On Workshops on Orcas Island At the Bullock Brothers' Homestead Horticulture for Permaculture Landscapes April 23-26; Fee: $350 ($335 if paid in full by March 1st) This 4-day course is for people looking to sharpen their plant skills with useful, edible, & medicinal plants. Students will need to have some plant experience. Topics include: propagation; grafting; useful plant ID; guild plantings; greenhouse & nursery protocols; and fertilizers. Permaculture Skills Intensive July 10-August 6; Fee: $1750 ($1575 if paid in full by May 1st) Month-Long Ecological Design & Sustainable Living Apprenticeship. Using examples on the Bullock Brothers' 16-yeard old working permaculture farm, participants will learn to apply ecological design and permaculture while living it. Course will cover the permaculture curriculum and participants will receive design certification. This residential course will focus on hands-on skills, including: design principles, mapping, water systems, greenhouse operation, plant propagation, orcharding, wetland restoration, solar electricity, and more. Water Harvesting September 17-20; Fee: $350 ($335 if paid in full by July 15th) This 4-day course will introduce techniques for harvesting and storing rain water including roof and broadscale catchment. Topics include: garden, landscape and orchard; swales; gabions; French drains; rooftop collection; filters; cisterns; Ferro-cement; greywater; drip, and other irrigation; and heating water with the sun and wood; etc. All workshops are instructed by Doug, Joe & Sam Bullock, Michael Lockman, and Guests. For More information please send a SASE to: Bullock Workshops, c/o WE-Design PO Box 45472, Seattle, WA 98145 Or email to michaellockman@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Jan 17 10:22:17 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04085 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23072; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22764 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.173 (pm4-173.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.173]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15241 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:09:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A1FDF8.75E4@permaculture.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:12:56 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network List Env Subject: [Fwd: Urban Farming Event] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------640632816F4F" Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------640632816F4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI --------------640632816F4F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15108 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from almawynne@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DY46P2QX; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:29:21 EST To: pcdirect@lancnews.infi.net Subject: Urban Farming Event Message-ID: <19990116.162604.17695.10.AlmaWynne@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-18,22-27,30-31,33-34,37-38,41-42,47-48,52-53, 59-61,65-67,69,72,74,76-77,80-92 From: almawynne@juno.com (Alma Wynne) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:29:21 EST X-UIDL: 90ee08f7839c821ad2ed9cd74096f50b X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Please send out on any Permaculture listserves to which you belong. Also, please confirm mission accomplished. Thanks City Farming - Slide Presentation and Discussion Michael Ableman California urban farmer, community organizer, and author Slide talk on the life of his community farm and discussion on urban agriculture Tuesday, February 2, 1999, 3:00 p.m. Auditorium of The Pennsylvania Horticultural Society, 100 North 20th Street, 5th Floor, Philadelphia Admission is free. Ableman is the author of a recent book, On Good Land - The Autobiography of on Urban Farm. Philadelphia community gardens were featured in his earlier work, From the Good Earth, A Celebration of Growing Food Around the World. Michael will sign books at the end of his talk. Benefit Reception Meet Michael Ableman, Help City Farming Also February 2, from 6:00 to 7:30 p.m., Michael Ableman will be the honored guest at an hors d’oeuvre and cash bar reception to benefit the Inner City Growers Association at Jack’s Firehouse, 2130 Fairmount Avenue, Philadelphia. Tickets are $15 reserved in advance. For reception reservations or information contact Suzanne Milshaw at 215-569-4129. These events are sponsored by the Inner City Growers Association, a new Philadelphia-based organization working on practical ways to further commercial urban agriculture. The members of ICGA would like to thank The Pennsylvania Horticultural Society and Jack’s Firehouse for generously providing space, personnel, and delectables in this effort to grow urban agriculture. Michael Ableman is the founder of the Center for Urban Agriculture at Fairview Gardens, in Goleta, CA, a suburb of Santa Barbara. This 12 1/2 acre organic farm is surrounded by tract houses and strip malls, raises over 100 varieties of fruits & vegetables, employs more than a dozen people, and feeds 500 families. Over the past decade, through tours, classes, a community supported agriculture program, an on site farm stand, a summer concert series, and other events and projects, the farm has become an important community/education center and national model for urban agriculture. Ableman's many and varied other projects include his first book, From the Good Earth (in which Philadelphia community gardens are featured); establishing food gardens at an AIDS hospice, a school, and a housing project in Watts; appearing on Victory Garden, on All Things Considered, and in National Geographic. He has also held numerous speaking engagements throughout North America and Europe. The Inner City Growers Association organized during the summer of l998. Among the group's members are representatives of two North Philadelphia farms: Philaberry Farms and Sea Change, also the Farmers' Market Trust, The Oley Institute, and others interested in urban agriculture. ICGA has begun connecting potential urban farmers with - avenues to land and warehouse space for projects such as mushroom and fish farming. - these new entrepreneurs with what each might need for best success: business and technical skills, government agencies, financial assistance, and marketing assistance. - individuals with meaningful, profitable livelihoods while creating jobs for others. - communities to lush, productive greenspace, more financial and food security, and to the healing power of connection to one's food source. ICGA is a project of The Oley Institute whose mission is to develop human environments which foster personal independence, community, spirituality and respect for the Earth. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --------------640632816F4F-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Jan 17 18:16:53 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11982 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05472; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.triax.com (postoffice@mail.triax.com [209.222.164.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27489 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyrix-166 ([209.222.163.88]) by mail.triax.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-41958U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA28602 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:29:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990117133744.03a24c20@pop.igc.apc.org> X-Sender: bcarter@pop.igc.apc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:37:44 -0800 To: permaculture@envirolink.org From: Barry Carter Subject: Re: Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: bcarter@igc.apc.org Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Dear Friends, At 03:17 PM 1/7/99 -0800, I wrote: >Recently, I heard about Dr. Philip S. Callahan and his discoveries >regarding paramagnetic soils. Though most folks on this forum are probably >familiar with Dr. Callahan, I will briefly recapitulate some of the high >spots of his discoveries. > >About thirty years ago Dr. Callahan discovered that the best soils for >growing things were paramagnetic. He developed an inexpensive instrument >for measuring paramagnetism in soil and tested soils extensively for this >property. He postulates that paramagnetic soils facilitate the flow of >atmospheric electromagnetic forces from the atmosphere to plants. He has >done many scientific demonstrations of this phenomenon. According to Dr. >Callahan, certain geometric structures can also enhance this energy flow.(1) > >The biggest problem with Dr. Callahan's theory is that he has been unable >to positively identify all of the elements in the soil which are >paramagnetic. I believe that the ORMUS elements are the key to >understanding paramagnetic soils. Like the paramagnetic elements in soil >the ORMUS elements are difficult to identify using conventional >spectroscopic or chemical analysis. It has been brought to my attention that in the last paragraph above it sounds like I am criticizing Dr. Callahan and his theories. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have the greatest respect for Dr. Callahan and his theories. Since this written medium does not convey tone of voice and other non-verbal elements of communication it is much easier to make statements with ambiguous meaning. What I intended to imply is that there are connections between Dr. Callahan's paramagnetic soil observations/theories and the ORMUS observations/theories which tend to close up some of the gaps in each. -- With kindest regards, Barry Carter Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance WEB Page: http://www.triax.com/bmnfa/index.htm Voice: 541-523-3357 Fax: 541-523-9438 Stupidity got us into this mess -- why can't it get us out? From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Jan 20 22:19:43 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28446 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01480; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01250 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.161 (pm4-181.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.181]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA25701; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:08:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A69AE7.F9B@permaculture.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:11:35 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network UNC , Pc Network List Env Subject: URBAN Pc - Time to put it together Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 Kirry wrote the Directory: Hello, my name is Kirry. I attended the pc course at Occidental Arts & Ecology in Sept. 98, and just got back home to Kansas City a month ago. I am seeking those who are active in URBAN Permaculture. I am eager to change things here, but feel all alone! A great challenge! And networking is vital, so I'm so thankful for this resource [American Permaculture Directory]. I'd also love to find out about anyone active in this area. Thank you! -Kirry Nelson I decided to put together everything I had on URBAN Pc. Using the Directory & it database, I came up with one book, 2 special issues of the Pc Activist & some articles, and approximately 40 names & 15 organizations in the US & Canada: Please contact me if 1) you want to be sure you are on this list 2) you have more information OR 3) you are interested in Urban Pc & would like the list Perhaps its time for someone to organize Urban Pc Resources (beyond the list being gathered).... TIA (thanks in advance) ... John John Irwin, Editor American Permaculture Directory jwirwin@permaculture.net http://www.permaculture.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Jan 20 23:47:56 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29661 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10360; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10000; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:34:49 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JJSGa20555; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:33:51 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <6df94dc5.36a6ae2f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:33:51 EST To: jwirwin@permaculture.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: URBAN Pc - Time to put it together Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 In a message dated 1/21/99 3:09:52 AM, jwirwin@permaculture.net wrote: <> John: We have a published number of articles in back issues of our TIPSY journal (since renamed) and we have an excellent section on urban permaculture in our design course, both the online and the live versions. Also there is some Urban PC stuff in one of Permaculture Design Course Pamphlet series that we have published and placed in public domain for unfettered replication. (Obviously, it is not practical for us to do that with all our materials.) Yankee Permaculture Paper #35, reprinted on the web-page cited below, has an urban section. Also, our directory (TRIP) of about 2,000 organizations related in some way to permaculture has a category called Urban Sustainability. (Yes, I know, an oxymoron.) We append the current US selection from TRIP to each update of the urban pamphlet in the designer's manual. Also, there was an excellent treatment of a urban permaculture design done on Roxbury, Massachusetts, around 1983 +/- a few years, to which I was an advisor. I have a copy of that report here somewhere. I can't remember the name of the guy who put the project to gether--I think he eventually took a design course, so he should be on your list of graduates from Massachusetts. It's also on the book they turned out. An interesting resource for permaculturists interested in urban settings could be Mark Winne's Hartford Food System. Mark was my boss for a while at the Natick Community Farm, a youth farm in an urban/suburban setting that he founded. I was head of the farm for a few years. It was something like the British City Farms, except that it was a stand alone--no supporting movement behind it. I think it is still going. Anyway, though I do not know if Mark even knows the word permaculture, he reportedly has done great things in Heartford--got some sort of spiffy award for same a while back. In my experience, having had projects at one prison (using the grounds with non-inmate participants) and been a permaculture/horticulture teacher of inmates at another prison, the prison setting is sort of the urban setting distilled to its essence. (Im not going to discus this with respondees who have not had intimate experience with prisons.) Urban permaculture is permaculture. Any person who has received proper training in permaculture should be able to do urban permaculture at the same level s/he can do any other. People do try to bend the principles because they are hard to follow. It is difficult to use the zone system of placement when the community garden, that you would like to manage as a zone 1 garden, is 8 blocks away. Nonetheless, it IS a zone 3 or 4 for you and you will be more successful if you use middle or outer zone strategies (or move into the garden, which I have seen done!) Everything we discuss in permaculture can workin cities. The problems in cities are not problems of opportunity and possibility, they are problems of people, generally disempowered people. You can't control your water system and stop ripping off the water from communities upstate (thinking of NYC) if you don't own City Hall. So permaculture, inherently an arnachist philosophy, has to bite hard on something (for the pain) and work with community organizers and politicians. (Anyone who runs for office is a politician.) If you walk around a city with a permaculture class, you here a hundred or maybe many more reasons why something can't be done (something that obviously CAN be done) than you hear people proposing ways to do it. That's disempowerment. Well, I've lived in cities, though before permaculture was so named, and I've been involved in various movements in cities, and the one rule that I've never seen an exception to is that the impetus has to come from the people stuck there. I remember that my hippy-dippy friends started a "free store" on the Lower East Side (this was the 60s) and so the local kids broke into it at night and stole everything. If the message of THAT gesture is not clear, avoid urban permaculture. So a bright and bushy-tailed graduate of a permaculture design course, aflame with THE WORD, can get hosed down to ambient temperature and below pretty quickly in the neighborhoods. The strategy that works is to move into a neighborhood, keep your mouth shut and pitch in when community projects come along. Get to know the organizers, sound them out on permaculture, and if they aren't interested, you may have wasted a lot of time. (Interestingly, the same strategy is what works best in "third world" situations.) Well, the woman you quote, John, is doing her homework, so we can be comforted that she appears NOT to be one of the misdirected zealots. That's all I've come up with. I teach in cities on invitation, but I don't go looking for work in such places, especially as I get older and have even less patience with the defeatism and cinicism. It seems likely that Mark has found a way around those problems, and again I would spend some time with him and his programs if I were interested in making permaculture in urban settings a major part of my work. I just have to say it again--permaculture is permaculture, and doesn't suddenly change because there are too many people around. There is the human temptation to change permaculture because the people don't want to change, but if one does, I devoutely hope they then call it something else. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 23 14:11:26 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05836 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25892; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from x17.boston.juno.com (x17.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.29]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25607 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:04:13 -0500 (EST) From: michaellockman@juno.com Received: (from michaellockman@juno.com) by x17.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DZNW744Y; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:04:39 EST To: permaculture@envirolink.org Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:52:39 -0800 Subject: Call For Articles Message-ID: <19990123.105913.-149169.4.michaellockman@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,6-7,15-16,18-20,29-31,36-38,41-43,47-48,51-52,54-55,59-61,68-69 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: michaellockman@juno.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 Calling All Guilds: The Sustainable Living News* Becomes Reader-Written! To paraphrase Rick Valley, We, all of us practitioners of permaculture, natural building, and ecological design are way behind in reporting to each other what we're doing, trying, and most importantly, learning. It is time to share our fieldwork. So, to correspond to this need the Sustainable Living News is becoming a reader-written forum for sustainable designers, permaculture practitioners, homeowners, , , and whoever to share their experiences designing and implementing sustainable living systems. Which means that we need you to write in and tell us about what you have done, or to interview somebody else about his or her adventures in sustainability. If we print your article you will receive either 4 copies of the issue you were published in or 1 copy and a one-year subscription. To keep it simple, we have come up with four general areas that we invite you to share your experiences or interview people in: 1. Planting and Observing Guilds: What have you planted? What worked? Failed? What guilds have you seen evolve? Have you planted orchard systems; native systems; or...? Include a drawing and/or a photograph. We want to hear and see about your adventures with beneficial associations of plants, animals and fungi and how this system eventually evolved (or not) into an entire ecosystem that provides you and your family with food, fiber, housing, or enjoyment. Please include what USDA Hardiness Zone you are in and whenever possible include both the common and Latin plant names. Companion planting welcome! 2. Building with Natural or Alternative Materials: What materials did you use for the foundation, walls, and roof? Would you use them again? Show us your design with pictures of the finished building (s). We also want to hear about benches, walls, gazebos, saunas etc. made from natural materials. We are especially interested in owner-built, community-built and innovative buildings. 3. Designing and Implementing Ecological Design & Permaculture Systems: We want to hear about your food forest, agroforestry, herb spiral, alternative technology, water catchment, greywater, aquaculture, or land reclamation project. 4. Developing a Sustainable Home Ecosystem: This is for someone who has designed and developed a home system and, preferably, who lives on the site. If you are interested in doing a design report for your site, please send an e-mail requesting an outline for documenting Sustainable Home Ecosystems. For any article, please include relevant information about site conditions & characteristics like climate, microclimate, geology, and land systems; materials; yourself; and/or the community. Feel free to contact us by e-mail at michaellockman@juno.com if you have any questions or want to talk about an article idea. Our preferred format to receive writing is via the above email address. PLEASE DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS. SEND AS TEXT BODY OF MESSAGE. You can also send it to PO Box 45472, Seattle, WA 98145 on a PC disc in Microsoft Word format with a printed copy. * If you have not heard of the Sustainable Living News (SLN): Our primary goal is to provide timely and useful information and resources to people working tin the fields of environmental & ecological design, permaculture, sustainability, natural building, & community development. the SLN is published as a regional insert of the Permaculture Activist. #19 of the SLN went out to 1100 combined subscribers of the Activist and SLN. An additional 300 were printed unbound. For more information and to see the latest issue visit our web site at www.sustainablelivingnews.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Jan 23 20:37:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12655 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15775; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15437 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailbag.com (msn-1-28.x2.binc.net [198.70.31.28]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24018; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:31:16 -0600 Message-ID: <36AA7704.43F7BA40@mailbag.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:27:33 -0600 From: Mark and Kelly Ludwig Organization: McFarland, WI X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bcarter@igc.apc.org, permaculture list Subject: Re: paramagnatisim - who cares? References: <3.0.6.32.19990107151710.007db470@pop.igc.apc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: mnkludwig@mailbag.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 Folks, Sorry I'm late reading and replying to this immense post on paramagnatisim etc. I have been to Acres USA and seen Dr. Calahan present his views. I was working at an alternative type (biological and organic) farm at the time, and we purchased one of his meters. Some of the stuff we tested was "high" some was "low", but all of it grew better plants. I find much of this field of inquiry utterly irrelevant for the vast majority of producers; farmers, gardeners, permaculturists etc. We have much better knowledge of the elements we know plants need to grow, macro, secondary and micro. We know what they do and how much to apply (though we debate rates and forms constantly). Most farms and gardeners in this country do a poor job of balancing these minerals and getting diverted away from a more complete focus here in favor of paramagnatisim seems to be folly to me. Paramagnatisim and the rest of the dubious "superconductivity" and "tunneling" etc. in Mr. Carters post has plenty of claims, but vast gray areas and omissions. Furthermore, I find it maddening to hear all these claims while I have seen few successful demonstrations in the real world. I'm not here to say there's nothing to this, but I am saying that most of it remains unproved and a distraction if you haven't addressed the basic issues in soil mineralization and other areas of soil management. Mark Ludwig Junck Farms Grass Based Dairy Jerseys and cousins Mc Farland WI Barry Carter wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am new to this forum and I would like to introduce myself and introduce > some new information on soil and biological systems. In 1995 I learned about some > materials which are difficult to identify > using conventional methods but which appear to be essential to many > biological systems. We call these materials ORMUS or m-state elements at > the suggestion of a couple of their modern discoverers. One of these > modern discoverers, a gentleman named David Hudson, has patented some of > the ORMUS elements and one process for obtaining them. Transcripts of > several of Hudson's lectures on this subject are available on the web at: > > > > Stupidity got us into this mess -- > why can't it get us out? Give me a break From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Jan 26 13:46:37 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16554 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12799; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12540 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:30 -0500 (EST) From: EWerb@aol.com Received: from EWerb@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XCKEa20089; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:37:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <46488447.36ae0b69@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:37:29 EST To: ccpg@arashi.com, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: New So Cal List - zoning in Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: EWerb@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 Hey Guilders The California South Coast Perma Guild is using a new list for specialized local info. We will still post many general topics on ccpg, the central coast guild list, but for more southerly requests and discussion, we will begin to use the new list too. The subscription process is very simple: send to: Majordomo@arashi.com no subject needed, message text: subscribe permascg thanks to our cyber hero John Howe for making this possible http://www.arashi.com/ eric w From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Jan 26 14:01:47 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16880 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15637; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15135; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:53:54 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur@aol.com Received: from Permacltur@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JPGVa04317; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:54:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5d3b03b4.36ae0f57@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:54:15 EST To: EWerb@aol.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, ccpg@arashi.com, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: New So Cal List - zoning in Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Permacltur@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Please post and/or forward: PERMACULTURE DESIGN WORKSHOP TO BE HELD IN CALIFORNIA Dan and Cynthia Hemenway, editors of The International Permaculture Solutions Journal, will lead an intensive 10-day permaculture design workshop Aug. 6-15, 1999, near Allengany, in Northern California. The initial weekend is a stand-alone workshop where participants produce a rough draft permacualture design. Starting monday, particpants flesh out and refine their design, delivering a report to the residents the following Saturday. Instruction during the week is confined to topics needed to produce this specific design. The design will integrate human activity with the contour, soil, solar energy, and water flows of the site to provide water, food, shelter, energy, and other patterns supportive of the residents. Creating a joyous and enjoyable setting is central to the design goals. Sunday afternoon, Dan will conclude the workshop with a clinic to discuss permaculture-related problems that participants bring from their own situations. Participants can register for the full workshop or just the initial weekend. There is a limit on enrollment. The workshop is designed to meet the needs of a variety of participants including: people wishing to learn to design their own homes; people seeking strong preparation for the certificate Permaculture Design Course, certified permaclturists seeking advanced work, and present or future students of the Online Permaculture Design Course who will use the workshop to meet their design project requirement. Child care can be arranged with advance notice. Send SASE for a complete flyer. Inquire also if you wish to host permaculture or forest workshops in your area. Limited scholarships for Native Americans, women, minorities, and others are available. For details about the workshop fee, scholarships, housing, meals and similar matters, contact Birdsong Sundstrom, Forest City, via Alleghany CA 95910. To arrange for advanced work or online course credit, or to book another workshop, contact: Elfin Permaculture, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192-0052 USA. From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Jan 26 13:11:52 1999 -0500 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14437 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06103; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05364; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:02:02 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur@aol.com Received: from Permacltur@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XJKYa20555; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:58:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:58:51 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Permaculture Design Intensive in Northern California Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Permacltur@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 Please post and/or announce: PERMACULTURE DESIGN WORKSHOP TO BE HELD IN CALIFORNIA Dan and Cynthia Hemenway, editors of The International Permaculture Solutions Journal, will lead an intensive 10-day permaculture design workshop Aug. 6-15, 1999, near Forest City, in Northern California. The initial weekend is a stand-alone workshop where participants produce a rough draft permacualture design. Starting monday, particpants flesh out and refine the design, delivering a report to the residents the following Saturday. Instruction during the week is confined to topics needed to produce this specific design. The design will integrate human activity with the contour, soil, solar energy, and water flows of the site to provide water, food, shelter, energy, and other patterns supportive of the residents. Creating a joyous and enjoyable setting is central to the design goals. Sunday afternoon, Dan will conclude the workshop with a clinic to discuss permaculture-related problems that participants bring from their own situations. Participants can register for the full workshop or just the initial weekend. There is a limit on enrollment. The workshop is designed to meet the needs of a variety of participants including: people wishing to learn to design their own homes; people seeking strong preparation for the certificate Permaculture Design Course; certified permaclturists seeking advanced training; and present or future students of the Online Permaculture Design Course who will use the workshop to meet their design project requirement. Child care can be arranged with advance notice. Send SASE for a complete flyer. Inquire also if you wish to host permaculture or forest workshops in your area. Limited scholarships for Native Americans, women, minorities, and others are available. For details about the workshop fee, scholarships, housing, meals and similar matters, contact Birdsong Sundstrom, Forest City, via Alleghany CA 95910. To arrange for advanced work or online course credit, contact: Elfin Permaculture, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192-0052 USA. ------- For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Feb 1 12:41:02 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09935 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24107; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from quetelet.agro.ucl.ac.be (quetelet.agro.ucl.ac.be [130.104.7.4]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23373 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1j2h (hera [130.104.51.223]) by quetelet.agro.ucl.ac.be (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA10478 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:31:37 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:31:37 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902011731.SAA10478@quetelet.agro.ucl.ac.be> X-Sender: bertaglm@pops2.agro.ucl.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: permaculture@envirolink.org From: Marco.Bertaglia@student.agro.ucl.ac.be (Marco BERTAGLIA) Subject: INTRO: Marco Bertaglia Reply-To: Marco.Bertaglia@student.agro.ucl.ac.be Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 Hello, My name's Marco Bertaglia, I've just subscribed and wish to introduce myself I'm Italian, 28, live in Belgium where I work. I'm a forestry and environment graduate student, doing a Master course on Environment and Developpement. My Aim in Life is find a Way to change things. Gonna leave for a Round-the-World Tour of EcoVillages & other interisting projets by the end of year 2000. I've just discovered EcoVillages, Gaia and related stuff, and I am amazed. I am somewhat new to the Internet Community and particularly new to Mailing Lists. Unfortunately, I ain't got all the time I wish I had to write and read and discuss, and I can only use Internet at University, so during opening hours (and sometimes at work at night). That's way I usually stay behind and reply to mails some time after they've been written. I sincerely hope this won't bother anyone. Anyway, I think discussion topics are all ideas in continuing evolution and I believe there's no such thing as "old" discussion topics. Feel free to contact me personally if you think you need to. I'm glad to join you all!!! Marco Bertaglia cours Charles Gheude 6/101 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgique 32 10 455852 Marco.Bertaglia@student.agro.ucl.ac.be From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Feb 3 14:56:42 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01741 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24221; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh105.infi.net (fh105.infi.net [209.97.16.35]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23394 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.198 (pm4-198.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.198]) by fh105.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24003 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:45:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B8A85F.326F@permaculture.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:49:51 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network List Env Subject: Monsanto Terminating Again: Aspartame References: <36B8A624.7038@permaculture.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 Pc Friends: This post has probably made the rounds, but I don't recall seeing it on this list - too important not to take the chance its a repeat.... john I received this from a friend in Lancaster: Fw: warning that seems to be of merit > juneo4@juno.com (June O LANG) > > Dear all, I cannot think of anything more important to pass on to your > friends. I wish I could edit it so it is not so long, but the message is clear. > love jo* > > Friends, this is important. Please distribute as widely as possible. As the > daughter of one of CDC's (Center for Disease Control) top researchers (now > deceased), I can tell you that my dad believed that aspartame (Nutri-sweet, > Equal, diet sodas, etc.) was deadly.... the evidence is now coming in.... > > In a message dated 98-12-20 03:43:11 EST, dalem@lava.net writes: > > WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE and the MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS FOUNDATION > FDA ISSUING FOR COLLUSION WITH MONSANTO > Article written by Nancy Markle (1120197) > > I have spent several days lecturing at the WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL > CONFERENCE on "ASPARTAME marketed as 'NutraSweet', 'Equal', and > 'Spoonful"'. In the keynote address by the EPA, they announced that there was > an epidemic of multiple sclerosis and systemic lupus, and they did not understand > what toxin was causing this to be rampant across the United States. > I explained that I was there to lecture on exactly that subject. When > the temperature of Aspartame exceeds 86 degrees F, the wood alcohol in > ASPARTAME coverts to formaldehyde and then to formic acid, which in turn > causes metabolic acidosis. (Formic acid is the poison found in the sting of fire > ants). The methanol toxicity mimics multiple sclerosis; thus people were being > diagnosed with having multiple sclerosis in error. > The multiple sclerosis is not a death sentence, where methanol toxicity > is. In the case of systemic lupus, we are finding it has become almost as > rampant as multiple sclerosis, especially Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi drinkers. > Also, with methanol toxicity, the victims usually drink three to four 12 oz Cans > of them per day, some even more. In the cases of systemic lupus, which is > triggered by ASPARTAME, the victim usually does not know that the aspartame > is the culprit > The victim continues its use aggravating the lupus to such a degree, > that sometimes it becomes life threatening. When we get people off the > aspartame, those with systemic lupus usually become asymptomatic. > Unfortunately, we can not reverse this disease. > On the other hand, in the case of those diagnosed with Multiple > Sclerosis, (when in reality, the disease is methanol toxicity), most of the > symptoms disappear. We have seen cases where their vision has returned and > even their hearing has returned. This also applies to cases of tinnitus. > During a lecture I said "If you are using ASPARTAME (NutraSweet, > Equal,Spoonful, etc.) and you suffer from fibromyalgia symptoms, spasms, > shooting pains, numbness in your legs, cramps, vertigo, dizziness, headaches, > tinnitus, joint pain, depression, anxiety attacks, slurred speech, blurred vision, > or memory loss -- you probably have ASPARTAME DISEASE!" People were > jumping up during the lecture saying, "I've got this, is it reversible?" It is > rampant. Some of the speakers at my lecture even were suffering from these > symptoms. In one lecture attended by the Ambassador of Uganda, he told us > that their sugar industry is adding aspartame! He continued by saying that one > of the industry leader's son could no longer walk - due in part by product usage! > We have a very serious problem. Even a stranger came up to Dr. > Espisto (one of my speakers) and myself and said, Could you tell me why so > many people seem to be coming down with MS?11 During a visit to a hospice, a > nurse > said that six of her friends, who were heavy Diet Coke addicts, had all been > diagnosed with MS. > This is beyond coincidence. Here is the problem. There were > Congressional Hearings when aspartame was included in 100 different products. > Since this initial hearing, there have been two subsequent hearings, but to no > avail. Nothing as been done. The drug and chemical lobbies have very deep > pockets. Now there are over 5,000 products containing this chemical, and the > PATENT HAS EXPIRED!!!!! At the time of this first hearing, people were going > blind. > The methanol in the aspartame converts to formaldehyde in the retina > of the eye. Formaldehyde is grouped in the same class of dmgs as cyanide and > arsenic-- DEADLY POISONS!!! Unfortunately, it just takes longer to quietly kill, > but it is killing people and causing all kinds of neurological problems. > Aspartame changes the brain's chemistry. It is the reason for severe > seizures. This drug changes the dopamine level in the brain. Imagine what this > drug does to patients suffering from Parkinson's Disease. This drug also causes > Birth Defects. > There is absolutely no reason to take this product. It is NOT A DIET > PRODUCT!!! The Congressional record said, "It makes you crave carbohydrates > and will make you FAT". Dr. Roberts stated that when he got patientsoff > aspartame, their average weight loss was 19 pounds per person. > The formaldehyde stores in the fat cells, particularly in the hips and > thighs. Aspartame is especially deadly for diabetics. All physicians know what > wood alcohol will do to a diabetic. > We find that physicians believe that they have patients with retinopathy, > when in fact, it is caused by the aspartame. The aspartame keeps the blood sugar > level out of control, causing many patients to go into a coma. > Unfortunately, many have died. > People were telling us at the Conference of the American College of > Physicians, that they had relatives that switched from saccharin to an > aspartame product and how that relative had eventually gone into a coma. Their > physicians could not get the blood sugar levels under control. Thus, the patients > suffered acute memory loss and eventually coma and death. > Memory loss is due to the fact that aspartic acid and phenylalanine are > neurotoxic without the other amino acids found in protein. Thus it goes past the > blood brain barrier and deteriorates the neurons of the brain. > Dr. Russell Blaylock, neurosurgeon, said, "The ingredients stimulates the > neurons of the brain to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees. Dr. > Blaylock has written a book entitled "EXCITOTOXINS: THE TASTE THAT KILLS" > (Health Press 1-800-643-2665). Dr. H.J. Roberts, diabetic specialist and world > expert on aspartame poisoning, has also written a book entitled "DEFENSE > AGAINST ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE" (1-800-814-9800). Dr. Roberts tells how > aspartame poisoning is escalating Alzheimer's Disease, and indeed it is. As the > hospice nurse told me, women are being admitted at 30 years of age with > Alzheimer's Disease. Dr. Blaylock and Dr. Roberts will be writing a position > paper with some case histories and will post it on the Internet. According to the > Conference of the American College of Physicians, 'We are talking about a plague > of neurological diseases caused by this deadly poison". > Dr. Roberts realized what was happening when aspartame was first > marketed. He said "his diabetic patients presented memory loss, confusion, and > severe vision loss". At the Conference of the American College of Physicians, > doctors admitted that they did not know. They had wondered why seizures were > rampant (the phenylalanine in aspartame breaks down the seizure threshold and > depletes serotonin, which causes manic depression, panic attacks, rage and > violence). > Just before the Conference, I received a FAX from Norway, asking for a > possible antidote for this poison because they are experiencing so many > problems in their country. This "poison" is now available in 90 PLUS countries > worldwide. Fortunately, we had speakers and ambassadors at the Conference > from different nations who have pledged their help. We ask that you help too. > Print this article out and warn everyone you know. Take anything that contains > aspartame black to the > store. Take the "NO ASPARTAME TEST" and send us your case history. > I assure you that MONSANTO, the creator of aspartame, knows how > deadly it is. They fund the American Diabetes Association, American Dietetic > Association, Congress, and the Conference of the American College of > Physicians. > The New York Times, on November 15, 1996, ran an article on how > the American Dietetic Association takes money from the food industry to > endorse their products. Therefore, they can not criticize any additives or tell > about their link to MONSANTO. How bad is this? > We told a mother who had a child on NutraSweet to get off the product. > The child was having grand mal seizures every day. The mother called her > physician, who called the ADA, who told the doctor not to take the child off the > NutraSweet. We are still trying to convince the mother that the aspartame is > causing the seizures. Every time we get someone off of aspartame, the seizures > stop. If the baby dies, you know whose fault it is, and what we are up against. > There are 92 documented symptoms of aspartame, from coma to > death. The majority of them are all neurological, because the aspartame > destroys the nervous system. > Aspartame Disease is partially the cause to what is behind some of the > mystery of the Dessert Storm health problems. The burning tongue and other > problems discussed in over 60 cases can bedirectly related to the consumption > of an aspartame product. Several thousand pallets of diet drinks were shipped to > the Dessert Storm troops. (Remember heat can liberate the methanol from the > aspartame at 86 degrees F). Diet drinks sat in the 120 degree F. Arabian sun > for weeks at a time on pallets. The service men and women drank them all day > long. All of their symptoms are identical to aspartame poisoning. Dr. Roberts > says "consuming aspartame at the time of conception can cause birth defects". > The phenylalanine concentrates in the placenta, causing mental > retardation, according to Dr. Louis Elsas, Pediatrician Professor - Genetics, at > Emory University in his testimony before Congress. In the original lab tests, > animals developed brain tumors (phenylalanine breaks down into DXP, a brain > tumor agent). When Dr. Espisto was lecturing > on aspartame , one physician in the audience, a neurosurgeon, said, "when > they remove brain tumors, they have found high levels of aspartame in them". > Stevia, a sweet food, NOT AN ADDITIVE, which helps in the metabolism > of sugar, which would be ideal for diabetics, has now been approved as a dietary > supplement by the FDA. For years, the FDA has outlawed this sweet food > because of their loyalty to MONSANTO. > If it says "SUGAR FREE" on the label-- DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT > IT!!!!!l! Senator Howard Metzenbaum wrote a bill that would have warned all > infants, pregnant mothers and children of the dangers of aspartame. The bill > would have also instituted independent studies on the problems existing in the > population (seizures, changes in brain chemistry, changes in neurological and > behavioral symptoms). It was killed by the powerful drug and chemical lobbies, > letting loose the hounds > of disease and death on an unsuspecting public. > Since the Conference of the American College of Physicians, we hope to > have the help of some world leaders. Again, please help us too. There are a lot of > people out there who must be warned, *please* let them know this information. > ============================================================ > ============= > For info on subscribing/unsubscribing to AnticareerList, and how to switch to a > once-a-day Digest, send an email to: > listserv@network.anticareer.com and write INFO AntiCareerList in the Body. > ============================================================ > ============= From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Feb 5 11:14:04 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19968 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21531; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh102.infi.net (fh102.infi.net [208.131.160.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20892 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.169 (pm4-169.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.169]) by fh102.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17327 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:04:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BB178F.305A@permaculture.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:08:47 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network List Env Subject: FYI: New Website for Permaculture Drylands Institute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA20900 Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 From: Branching Out Newsletter of the Permaculture Drylands Institute January 1999, page 8: ³PDI Web Site Has New Address² ³The Institute [Permaculture Drylands Institute] has recently changed its web page address from to a shorter address . Thank you to Phoenix resident Greg Peterson for volunteering to host and maintain our web site at his preexisting address. Now PDI will be able to provide on-line, quarterly, updated information on courses, workshops, events, and publications at a site that will be easy to locate on the World Wide Web.² John Irwin, Editor American Permaculture Directory jwirwin@permaculture.net http://www.permaculture.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Feb 7 22:13:19 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03849 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15874; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15356 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mindspring.com (pool-207-205-242-49.atln.grid.net [207.205.242.49]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09127; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:04:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BE3ED8.518D6857@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:33:13 -0500 From: Keith Johnson Organization: The Permaculture Activist: http://metalab.unc.edu/pc-activist X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BAPG/Andrea Taylor , Permaculture Mailing list , Permaculture Mailing List Subject: [Fwd: ] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------11CCC25FBD01AE93A4DE499C" Reply-To: keithdj@mindspring.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------11CCC25FBD01AE93A4DE499C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------11CCC25FBD01AE93A4DE499C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.22.4]) by mx9.mindspring.com (Mindspring Mail Service) with ESMTP id rbcvi2.5qi.37kbi17 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23160 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.214.149.175] (ppp-207-214-149-111.snrf01.pacbell.net [207.214.149.111]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id UAA17723 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:23:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:23:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: pcactiv@metalab.unc.edu From: Gordon Feller We are setting up a facility in Healdsburg (California), Sonoma County, where a wide variety of locally-grown and authentic/organic farm products will be sold. We would like to have on site (on the second floor) one or two national or regional non-profit organizations who are deeply committed -- as we are -- to sustainable agriculture research-education programs. (There will be a large working "experimental" garden on site where we can take advantage of the estimated 2000 visitors per day to the facility's indoor markets and outdoor vintage railroad excursions.) Can you recommend (and mayeb even provide contacts for) a strong non-profit already working in Northern California whose work we might find of interest? Gordon Feller Integrated Strategies San Rafael, CA 94903 --------------11CCC25FBD01AE93A4DE499C-- From bounce-permaculture-75156@franklin.oit.unc.edu Mon Feb 8 20:18:43 1999 Received: from franklin.oit.unc.edu (franklin.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.59]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with SMTP id UAA25419 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:18:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:19:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "permaculture" From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net To: "permaculture" Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: [permaculture] change of e-mail address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campuscwix.net (Unverified) X-Orcpt: rfc822;permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 My e-mail address has been changed. Please note: blissv@nmhu.campuscwix.net thanks! Vicki --- You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: london@metalab.unc.edu To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-permaculture-75156P@franklin.oit.unc.edu From bounce-permaculture-75156@franklin.oit.unc.edu Mon Feb 8 20:23:27 1999 Received: from franklin.oit.unc.edu (franklin.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.59]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with SMTP id UAA25486 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:23:26 -0500 (EST) From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:19:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campuscwix.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "permaculture" Subject: [permaculture] change of e-mail address Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org Reply-To: "permaculture" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 My e-mail address has been changed. Please note: blissv@nmhu.campuscwix.net thanks! Vicki --- You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: london@metalab.unc.edu To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-permaculture-75156P@franklin.oit.unc.edu From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Tue Feb 9 00:45:52 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA29196 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02468; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02172 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.211.141.207] (wt-d6-207.wt.net [208.211.141.207]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA07707; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:08 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: lamu@pop3.wt.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36bcc7d6.daena@daena.eepo.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Permaculture WA From: Andy Richker Subject: Permaculture sites near/in LA, Ca Cc: Permaculture Mailing list , Permaculture Mailing List Reply-To: lamu@wt.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 Hey guys, I'm headed to LA, Ca and want to check some permaculture sites or centers. Any help would be extremely appreciated asap as I am leaving on thursday 2-8. Thanks in Advance or TIA. Cheers, andy lamu@wt.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Feb 18 16:59:23 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27989 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05572; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh102.infi.net (fh102.infi.net [208.131.160.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04370 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.171 (pm4-171.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.171]) by fh102.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18421; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:42:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CC8A4C.7337@permaculture.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:46:52 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network List UNC , Pc Network List Env Subject: Worm wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 Hello all - I am ready to build a vermicomposting bin. Since I don't want to buy a plastic bin or build with wood which will rot one day, I had thought about using some leftover scrap pieces of plastic lumber from an outdoor porch floor - which would not rot or warp. The recycled plastic in them is very compact & one of these boards is much heavier than a normal wood board. But does plastic lumber outgas? Too much for worms? TIA - john From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Feb 18 17:16:01 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28379 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08762; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07958; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:58:36 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JPLGa20295; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:57:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <64f8fed7.36cc8cb6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:57:10 EST To: jwirwin@permaculture.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org, YankeePerm@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Worm wood Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 In a message dated 2/18/99 9:46:05 PM, you wrote: <> Hey John, What is wrong with a pile. Compost does not need resources diverted to make a container inorder to rot. Compost happens! For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sun Feb 21 00:52:36 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11952 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21248; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21130 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mindspring.com (pool-207-205-129-117.atln.grid.net [207.205.129.117]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27792; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:45:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CF8448.B932ED7C@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:58:00 -0500 From: Keith Johnson Organization: The Permaculture Activist/Culture's Edge/Patterns for Abundance: http://metalab.unc.edu/pc-activist X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirk Hanson , Permaculture Mailing list , Permaculture Mailing List Subject: [Fwd: Peninsula Peoples' Farmers Market] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------764C324AC36634B92B13884C" Reply-To: keithdj@mindspring.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------764C324AC36634B92B13884C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------764C324AC36634B92B13884C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.22.4]) by mx8.mindspring.com (Mindspring Mail Service) with ESMTP id rcjkeq.rf3.37kbi16.1 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from palladium.nextlink.net (palladium.nextlink.net [208.234.218.66]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02195 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:20:13 -0500 (EST) From: ehall@nextlink.net Received: from nlmail.internal.nextlink.net (formal.nextlink.net [208.234.219.192]) by palladium.nextlink.net (Pro-8.9.2/Pro-8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA14274; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:08:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by nlmail.internal.nextlink.net(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 8625671A.006F0B9B ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:12:54 -0600 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NEXTLINK To: pcactiv@metalab.unc.edu, JWIrwin@Permaculture.net Message-ID: <8625671A.006F0964.00@nlmail.internal.nextlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:10:21 -0800 Subject: Peninsula Peoples' Farmers Market Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hello... I am involved with the creation of a new farmer's market in the Portland, Oregon north inner city. The plans for our market include an emphasis on the small home grower, the ethnic diversity of our urban area, and the organic production of food. As coordinator for the committee dedicated to locating vendors, I am looking for ways to contact local non-commercial growers. I am a subscriber to the Permaculture Activist and have sent for my copy of the American Permaculture Directory, which seems the best source of information to help me find local permaculture enthusiasts who might be interested in selling produce at our new market. However, I'm wondering if you have any further information that could help me in this quest. Is there any possibility of mailing lists or contact names to help me locate the permaculture community? I would greatly appreciate any help, information, or direction you could give me. Thank you in advance for any assistance you are able to provide. It is much appreciated!! Erica Hall ehall@nextlink.net (503) 286-0277 9314 N. Tioga Ave. Portland, OR 97203 --------------764C324AC36634B92B13884C-- From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Feb 25 12:11:34 1999 Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [208.195.208.7]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10359 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04796; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from fh102.infi.net (fh102.infi.net [208.131.160.101]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04239 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.152.167.195 (pm4-195.lns.infi.net [206.152.167.195]) by fh102.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17203; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:56:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36D581B4.B0C@permaculture.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:00:36 -0500 From: John W Irwin Reply-To: jwirwin@permaculture.net Organization: American Permaculture Directory X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pc Network List UNC , Pc Network List Env Subject: Re: Worm bin material References: <36CC8A4C.7337@permaculture.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 Last week I wrote: > > Hello all - > I am ready to build a vermicomposting bin. Since I don't want to buy a > plastic bin or build with wood which will rot one day, I had thought about using > some leftover scrap pieces of plastic lumber from an outdoor porch floor - > which would not rot or warp. The recycled plastic in them is very compact & > one of these boards is much heavier than a normal wood board. But does plastic lumber outgas? Too much for worms? > TIA - john When I looked more carefully at my pile, I realized I didn't have enough plastic lumber to use anyway, so I just used wood. Thanks for your replies. john