Subject: Compiled responses to "How do you know" (fwd)

From: Victor Guest <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 09:19:46 WST

Compiled list of answers to "How do you know when you've learned something?"
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Hi, This has application for anyone interested in teaching Permaculture.
Or Holistic Management.
Vic.
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I never know.  Situations change, new stimuli, new contexts...
you reapply old ideas, you innovate, you relearn, you unlearn....
Learning is constant, a process.....
Jim King
************

in my opinion, i feel and know that i have learned something when i can do
it by myself with confidence.
Anne Chueh

***************
When I can use it comfortably ... and when I keep getting insights about
relationships to other things I know.
Dick
R. H. (Dick) Richardson                     (512) 471-4128 office
Zoology Dept.                                     471-9651 FAX
University of Texas                               
Austin, TX 78712	

********************
Craig talks about mastery by application. I agree with him. But prior to
mastery, I know I have learned something when I find myself mentally
kicking and screaming, and then find myself surprised into great calm. I
suppose this is an affective yardstick, but it works for me. Probably I
learn many ways, as Jim has suggested for himself, but learning that I
consciously experience sort of hits me over the head.

Here's a recent example.

While conducting my educational research project in Canada with farming
organizations, I found that people would continually correct my usage of
the phrase: 'farm leader'. I used 'farm leader' as a way to respectfully
describe a farmer who was active in service projects and who was able to
take a stand on tough issues. Apparently, to important players in Ontario,
this definition is inaccurate. People corrected me so often that I became
annoyed.

I tried applying the label only to men: maybe women were not 'farm leaders'
out of some type of sexism. But that was not it. Or, maybe only those
farmers active on the provincial level were farm leaders, and local people
were not. Nope. Wrong again.

Finally, I cornered a staffperson of a farming organization and expressed
my frustration. Well, with great surprise that quelled my mental kicking
and screaming, I learned that 'farm leader' simply indicates someone who is
ELECTED to a farm organization. Applying this term to non-elected farmers
-- no matter how service-oriented or influential the farmer --  is wrong in
this context because non-elected farmers have no direct democratic linkage
to an organizations. When I learned this fact, many other puzzles fell into
place.

For example, farmers who are not elected cannot properly speak for the
organization (agency) and they cannot be voted out (accountability).  In
Ontario, linking involvement of farmers through organizations instead of
through informally connected 'good' or 'progressive' farmers was a key to
their particular success story.

So I would say that my process of learning involves, first, an idea that
does not fit and bothers me a lot. This mess is followed by the shock of
calm when my brain finally 'gets it.'

I find that this process echoes John Dewey's idea of the progress of
scientific method, e.g., Dewey's 'unsettled' state of knowledge that spurs
one to gather data followed by a 'settled condition' when the answer is
sufficiently solid that it supports productive activity.

Well, this is no more illuminating than Craig or Jim's response, but it
certainly took more words.

 ;-)

Nancy GS
Nancy Grudens Schuck
Doctoral Candidate
******************************

I know I have learned something when I can describe it and I realize I know
what I am talking about.  When I am comfortable with discussing the subject
within a variety of situations and I am able to adapt my understanding to a
particular, unfamiliar situation.  For example, if I have studied soil
quality parameters in the temperate region of the west coast of the U.S.,
I can say I truly have learned about and understand the essense of soil
quality when I go to a new, unfamiliar region and I examine the soil and I
can comment of its texture, its fertility and its role in the local
ecosystem.  At that point I truly understand the subject of soil and am not
just 'parroting' what a professor or a book said.

'Science is understanding a thing by its parts, Art is feeling it for its
whole.'

Susan Toms Ornelas

*******************************
I was stranded on the side of the road once in Iowa. Twenty-two below zero
and my water pump quit. I fixed it myself that day, but not without the
help of an Iowa State Trooper to haul me into town and back and the kind
tutelage of my foster dad many years earlier. One clue as to when you know
you have learned something is when you know the limits of your ability and
when to call for help. One interesting thought lingers . . . honest to god,
I feel capable of fixing anything because I understand how systems work,
whether electrical, pneumatic, mechanical, internal combustion, and to some
extent, even human systems. Now granted, I know little of medicine and all
of its complexities, but some years ago, undaunted by that lack of "book
learning," I assisted in the home birth of two children. To that day, I had
not learned how to do this, and so it could be said that sometimes we may
not know that we have learned anything in particular, but we have learned
how to make a go of it nonetheless.

Best Wishes,

Douglas B. Johnson
Outreach Specialist, Quality of Life Project
Consortium for Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (CSARE)

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I have been very interested in the thoughts of the people who have 
responded, and can relate to their ideas.

The thing that comes to mind for me was learning to shear a sheep.
To watch the process and to be able to shear 150 sheep a day was a 3 year
process. This was after I had "learned" at a shearing school. What do I
have to learn to put me into world class.

I no longer know anything. Everything to me is transigent. I recently saw 
a study by a doctor which debunked the estrogen story and put margarine and
homogenised milk in the position of a killer.( I have been given other info
to support this)

The old wisdom says that the truth will set us free. 
How do I know the truth? Is marketing about distorting the truth.
Will I believe something if someone pays enough to convince me.
Will I believe something if someone can convince me they are smart and 
I am dumb.

A very interesting question.

Regards,
          Vic
--Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                       Perth, Western Australia
*********************

I recognize learning...When I (can) use that to build another different
idea or knowledge or practice.

Luis Felipe Ulloa 

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To SAEd;
Enjoying the contributions . . . .

Doug said:

". . . it could be said that sometimes we may not know that we have learned
anything in particular, but we have learned how to make a go of it
nonetheless."

Beautifully said.
***************************

>For me, part of having learned, is realizing how much I don't yet know.  But
>also something less tangible.  I haven't had any coffee yet this morning, but
>this less tangible thing has to do with being able to question what I have
>learned and then to go beyond it into a form of abstract or creative thinking
>about what it is I have learned.  In teaching others, I think this is a very
>important piece to impart - that "I may have learned this way, but there
are a
>myriad of other ways to approach thinking and learning about this one thing."
>
I think you touched on a very philosophical question Victoria.  I find this
kind of discussion full of possibilities and richness...thank you for
asking...Kim Staritzky

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I'm enjoying this line of discussion---thanks for the thoughtful insights!
I struggle with this question a lot, and I don't have a quick answer.  But
here are a few thoughts:

I don't use "being able to teach" because often I CAN'T teach what I
know---what I know comes from a body of experience, and that can't be
transferred.  For example, I tried to teach about the value of terracing
to preserve soil in Peru last week---my knowledge came from seeing the
effects of soil erosion and walking on terraces, which can't be
communicated in a classroom.  Also, I can sometimes "teach" (in the common
academic sense---i.e., transfer a superficial understanding to someone
else) something I don't really "know".  Both of us might get great scores
on an exam in this subject;  but we don't know diddly about it, in the
sense of being able to use that knowledge creatively. This is a very
familiar kind of "teaching" and "knowing" in teaching institutions, in my
experience.  It leads to some facility but little knowledge---the
parroting that one respondent disparaged. 

But encouraging people to learn by trying to teach someone else is useful,
because nothing shows us what we DON'T know as quickly as teaching.  And
that spurs us into trying to get answers, one way or another.

I think learning is perhaps a collective action, and truth is a collective
entity.  For many issues, each person has her/his own "truth", and really
KNOWING that issue requires listening to each truth and slowly building a
synthesized picture.  Some things can be learned in isolation, but issues
that concern other people and life (as most do) require those other
perspectives.  For instance, Douglas couldn't possibly help midwife a baby
without some serious interaction with his partner (I've had personal
experience with OBs who didn't know how to listen, and they are anything
but help when it comes to birthing). Maybe in some sense this idea of
"learning as successful listening and digesting so that other people's
truths become part of you too" applies to mechanical learning too.  I
remember learning to adjust the carburetors when I owned an MGA (long
ago---don't ask me to adjust your carburetor now!):  it required patience
and careful listening and adjustment until my actions brought the sound
into harmony. 

Here's where this may tie into Nancy's observation about tension/release
(which reminded me of the Kuhnian concept of how a body of scientists
"learns"). At the individual level, learning something is like tuning a
piano:  you adjust the strings until the disharmonics go away.  But you
have to be tuned into the disharmony, to even realize you don't "know" it
yet;  and you have to know how to "adjust the strings" (in this case,
seeking perspective from someone who had a different truth than Nancy's).

Molly Anderson

***********************
Dear SAED,

I'm feeling a little sheepish -- I think the question I asked WAS a good
one, but I hope no one is under the impression that I asked out of a deep
philosophical motive.  The truth is, I was curious to know what you all
thought.

I teach BIO 103 (biology for accountants and sports journalists) at the
local community college, and I wrote a multiple-choice test.  Even while I
wrote it I was snarling to myself that there had to be a better way to find
out if people learned something from class; and when the tests were graded
and the scores were depressing I snarled even more.  Not at the students,
but at myself -- why had I not come up with that better way instead of
knuckling under to the Way It's Done?  

I talked about the experience with a wise and supportive colleague of mine,
who just in the course of our casual conversation said in passing, "How do
we know when we've learned something?"  

The more I thought about it the more I liked the question, so before I
returned those tests to my students, I asked them to write down their
answers to the question.  I wanted to know so that maybe I could find a
better way of assigning grades or if I have to give tests I can at least
make decent tests.  (Then I told them that if they didn't like their scores
this time they could retrieve their grades with a little extra work.  Then
I returned the mean old tests and breathed a sigh of relief that they still
spoke to me at the end of class.)  

They were great.  They really took the question seriously; I had to pull
the papers out of their hands.  They aren't as sophisticated as you all,
but by gosh they know what happens in their minds and lives, and sometimes
hearts, when they truly have learned something.

Many people said things that boil down to, I can do a new task without
asking for help; or I can explain to someone else; or I can put the pieces
together with other things I know.  Different learning styles showed up
very clearly.

I want to share with you (edited) a couple of my most favorites, but I
could have reproduced any of their answers and been just as proud to put
them up:

"Whenever I learn something new I usually am fascinated...surprised that I
have gone 21 years without knowing...It is very rare that I am interested
enough in school work to [ask further questions] for some reason.  I guess
that I don't see daily applications in school work.  But it is the
surprised feeling letting me know I have just learned something."

"Usually something really negative or positive happens to me before I
realized I have learned something.  For example, I witnessed a close friend
giving birth to her daughter and I learned how beautiful being a woman is.
Another example -- I flunk a test, I learn that I can't do well if I don't
put in an effort to.  That applies with most everything.  In order for me
to "learn" (sic) I have to have an open mind.  I have the habit of
daydreaming...so I really have to concentrate on what I'm learning in order
to retain info."

For me, learning this time around was something like, "Wow!  ME?  You mean,
ME?  I get to be a teacher?  I get to work with students like that?  Even
the one who sleeps all period and makes me want to pour water on his head?
WOW!  What else would I ever in the world want to do?"

In other words, a return to humility and the sense of awesome wonder at
what an incredible privilege it is to be a teacher at all.  

Now if you asked me how I know when I've learned something about soil
microbiology, say, the answer is entirely different and would look a lot
more like Susan Ornelas' ideas, which I will re-post with the whole list in
a day or two.

My gratitude to all of you who have responded and continue to respond to
this question, and especially to anyone who read this whole message!  And
by the way, any ideas on how to do something besides give tests?

Many, many thanks, and happy teaching,
Victoria Mundy
**************************

Victoria Mundy
Dept. of Agronomy, University of Kentucky
606/257-2103