Subject: Re: Hundredth Monkey (was NGO Accountability) (fwd)

From: Victor Guest <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:43:04 WST

I think we may have forgotten the distinction between things that are
accurate but not true and those that are not accurate, but are true. There
are levels "correctness" up to the level of the sublime, which is
inexpressible in words anyway. Words are always approximations, being of
human origin, they are of necessity, limited and imperfect.

If "true" means anything, the Hundredth Monkey story is "true." Whether it
is accurate or not, I wouldn't know nor probably care. The debunking in
Camilla's website reference seems to circle around the debunking
researcher's belief that such behavior could not spread beyond a particular
island without some "mysterious intervention." It is filled with
generalities and is not scientific nor based upon any research on the
question. It is more of a "bah-humbug" on the notion of some spiritual
intervention than a coming-to-grips with the notion that behaviors once
learned are easier for species members to replicate than they were for the
originator(s) of the behavior.

Anyone interested in the "truth" of the phenomena described in HM -- hmmm,
Hundredth Monkey has the same initials as Holistic Management -- might want
to check into the work of Rupert Sheldrake. He tries to pry us loose from
our mechanistic world view (the debunker's world view, by the way) and
propel us into a holistic one in which we are connected through "morphic
fields."His books include The Rebirth of Nature and A New Science of Life.
In one of the most readable of his works, The Presence of the Past, he writes:

"This book explores the possibility that memory is inherent in nature. It
suggests that natural systems, such as termine colonies, or pigeons, or
orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all
previous things of their kind, however far away they were and however long
ago they existed." 

He gives many examples of behavior shifts in both plants and animals that
illustrate the application of the Hundredth Monkey principle, including the
difficulty of replicating mouse/maze experiments, because no subsequent sets
of mice have as many errors as the original set.. 

He has a recent book out called something like "7 Experiments That Can
Change the World," -- I loaned it out, so don't have the title quite right. 

The H. Monkey story seems to me to reside in the company of  the "Story of
the Man Who Planted Trees," though I suspect it is more "accurate" than that
mythic, life-changing story. This has been an interesting topic.

Barbara

At 08:33 AM 1/8/98, you wrote:
>Okay, folks, if you are so inclined, check out this website for some
>1996 responses from one of the senior Japanese researchers who was
>involved in the project that led to the legend of The Hundredth Monkey:
>
>http://www.csicop.org/si/9605/monkey.html
>
>I can't tell you how disappointed I was to read about this...but I'm all
>for truth.
>
>Camilla in Arkansas
>
>
Barbara Ashley Phillips
American West Institute for Conflict Resolution
P.O. Box 676
Halfway, Oregon 97834
(541) 742-6790 (Phone)  (541) 742-5175 (Fax)
http://www.mediate.com/baphillips
Email: [email-masked]

---

From: Victor Guest <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:02:58 WST

Hi, Vic

I don't think the Hundredth Monkey MUST be relegated to myth or legend. But
it is "mythic" in the sense that it is a story that explains some phenomenon
of nature (Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd College ed.) -- namely, the
ability of very small numbers of individuals to influence the behaviors of
very large numbers of individuals and (my own meaning) the seamlessness of
our relationship to others of our kind. To such meaning, the debunkers are
merely irrelevant.

To me, myths are transcendent stories, filled with meaning. So I would say
this story might "rise" to the mythic level, rather than be relegated to it. 

Glad you pitched in on this one. 

Barbara

At 04:17 PM 1/12/98, you wrote:
>>
>>Thank you all for this incredibly rich discussion!  The discussion of
>>Sheldrake's ideas makes me think instantly of another great holographic
>>thinker, Dr. Lewis Thomas, whose book, The Lives of a Cell: Notes of a
>>Biology Watcher, I read back in 1974 (still have it).  The Medusa and the
>>Snail is yet another of his books that I love. 
>> Camilla
>
>Hi, I want to ask whether the story of the hundred momkeys, which inspires
>much positive cameraderie, must be relegated to a myth or legend, with it's 
>own truth untoucheable by the debunkers.
>
>Call it faith or whatever, the fact that we can improve ourselves, by prayer
>or collective thought is constantly being proven to me within the thinking
>of and within our list. That someone saw and chose to claim this with 
>monkeys doesn't alter it's truth or reality. (simply because someone choses
>to claim it wasn't true) true or not it is a wonderful anology.
>
>Wonderful things happen when we love our neigbhour as ourselves. What about
>loving ? (God) with all our heart , soul and might. I must confess my love
>for all that HM stands for. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could step back and 
>let the African plains just "be".
>
>>
>>On 8 Jan 1998 [email-masked] wrote:
>>
>>> At 04:00 PM 1/8/98, [email-masked] wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> >In one of the most readable of his works, The Presence of the Past, he
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                       Perth, Western Australia
>[email-masked]                  11 Carew Place Greenwood 6024 
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 2464674
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>               Permaculture Convergence on line
>
>
Barbara Ashley Phillips
Clear Creek Gardens & Game, Inc.
Rt. 1 Box 138
Post Office Box 676
Halfway, Oregon 97834
Phone office: (541) 742-6558  ranch operations: (541) 742-2238 Fax: (541)
742-5175 
Email  [email-masked]  http://www.neoregon.com/ccgg
Website: http://www.neoregon.com/ccgg (B&B Inn) and 
                 http://www.neoregon.com/hcbison.html (Hells Canyon Bison)