Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:31:03 +-1000

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From: 	[email-masked][SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 0:43
To: 	[email-masked]
Cc: 	[email-masked]
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

I think its interesting and useful to look at the social aspects as just 
another permaculture problem. Channel those visitors and make them 
contributors to your system (and obviously you are to theirs!). And just 
be direct and honest with visitors at unwanted times--few people really 
think the world should revolve around them... But mostly, congratulations 
on having this problem/resource! Lots of us are dreaming and working 
towards being where you're at!
Its easy - just set up a site that is highly accessible and easiily viewed
we are next to a pub and the pub overlooks the site, so does the street.
People look, the chooks or ducks calls them over and - it snowballs.

---
Jeff Hall	
[email-masked]

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:36:49 +-1000

Greetings,
	I spent a few years working as a period gardener at a historic 
site, and understand the distractions you are experiencing.  Part of my job 
involved interpretation (basically tours).  I found that a simple "hello" 
So true - so true - I always say hello to people - We always nod to people passing, 
and NOW I know I'm behaving like a city person - hiding my face - fearful that a raving
lunatic my pass - in the cities you're treated like a raving lunatic when you say
hello to strangers!!!  so True - thank you!
was plenty for most visitors, as they often preferred to muck about on 
their own -- if they had questions or displayed any confusion I'd spend as 
much time with them as they wanted, otherwise I'd continue with my work.  I 
think those visiting your site will have some understanding of 
permaculture, and will perhaps not need much explained -- they may offer 
helpful suggestions, too!

Well permaculture is huge field - and eternally complex - I'll never know enough.
I think you're advantage is that you were working in a public space so people felt
free to wander and quietly absorb.
I'll try to incorporate that in my system I think.
When kids ask to come and explore the back part which is wild - I say fine, just look out for 
snakes I call as they start mucking about, and the're off like rockets!!!
Regards, j
Thankyou, April

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:28:40 +-1000

I think I'll ask the universe for more sites like mine and then I will become
commonplace, happy and the whole worlds peoples richer!!
the amazing thing is - I DONT advertise the site - not yet anyway!!
I need get a system but I hate being locked in to systems.

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From: 	carmela leone[SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 19:10
To: 	April Sampson-Kelly
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

Poor April!  It must be a very cool place you have!  I might pop in one day!
(just kidding - although I will pop in ONE day...)

My place is not as big or as well advertised as yours!  I am fairly private
too and I give off the vibe that makes people feel like they are intruding -
this is when I don't want them to visit me, that is...  Otherwise, I'm
generous like you, but as I said, not as well advertised...  

Ask the Universe for more time to do the things you have to do!

Good luck and Blessings

Carmela
              
              ************************************************************
               'The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, 
                   but the cultivation and perfection of human beings'.   
                    Masanobu Fukuoka - 'The One-Straw Revolution'
                                ***************
                                 Carmela Leone
                          Email: [email-masked]
         Home Page: http://www.ozonline.com.au/permaculture/index.html

                          ******************************

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:56:38 +-1000

Hi  April
I am in a similar Boat I run a small Blacksmiths forge and the whole world
loves to wander in to have a look.
I used to let this happen until I read the book (temporarily forgotton the
title)about the couple who built and flew the nonstop aircraft" Voyager"
around the world. In the book Ms Jaeger relates the same problem of
interested well wishers and how they stated that every new visitor was
allowed 5minutes to hear of the planes contruction progress and then If
they wanted to hear more they where expected to pitch in and help. 
It soon helps dampen the timewasters enthusiasm when they are asked to
sweep a floor etc.
This may sound a little mercinary and it can be rather difficult to say
these things to enthusiastic people but you have to eat.
The other suggestion that I have is (and I have thought ofdoing 
similarly) is putting up a sign saying  visitors welcome On a certain time
Ie two hours on Sat or guided tours Between say 3 -5 $10.00 each . David
Holmgren  charges $40 a visit I'm told.  I'd like not a turn people away -on the grounds
of not being able to afford a visit, also  I get greatest satisfaction from 
the aspect of permaculture where we empower people to take better control of
their needs and seek more earth friendly supplies.
conducting tours is fine if I want to do that for the rest of my life - I am convinced now that
even selling the surplus fruit is not what I come to earth for - picking thousands of fruit
in summer is tedious, potting up plants year after year  kills your back.  I'll stick to
sharing the fruit with helpers I think.  and then I don't have to pray for a good harvest to
maintain reliable supply.

recently someone even suggested I could earn good money 
with high quality garden based childcare!! WOW
1.  as if I can't earn good money with my profession
 (women with small children 
are often mistaken for morons I think) 
OR 
2.  as though I should be compelled to sell everything I can do lovingly!!!
3.  I don't believe that everything has a price/monetary value.
4.  People's expectations change when they start paying money.

I agree tours for a fee is sensible as it helps restrict the numer of tours per
enquiror but I have a problem already steming from turning a hobby into a
small successful business,  I need less MONEY and more quality time.
I
believe that if you advertise your need for privacy and be firm in
enforcing it you should be OK
Let me know how you get on
REGARDS
COLIN MORTON. Permaculture fan
Thank you Colin - you have helped me formulate ideas and hope you don't
think me rude in relating my recent experiences of people a lot less understanding
than you and others on the mailing list.

Why not grow from being a fan into and fantastic activist Colin??

---

From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:08:55 +-1000

One thing I have
had to learn is how to create a boundary and communicate it. At first, I
figured that people would stop coming by since I was so rude:-)  Not the
case..Usually, I find simply saying that I am involved in weeding, beading,
seeding, whatever it is allows for the visitor to stay if they choose while
I continue what I am doing! Sometimes they may even lend a hand!
REcently I has looping a thick branch with a bow saw and two guys who live up
the road and know me through a friend of a friend starting talking about the 
cut, the speed of my saw etc, then they decided to help and discovered I had been 
much faster even though I am small!
So they left after me politely fighting them and the tree.

 The gardens you have to show, obvious to most, would not be what they are
if you were not working with them ALOT!  So, keep on with whatever task you
are doing..possibly modifying your scheduling so that it allows for talking
while doing..saving efforts that require more focus and silence for when
they leave!  Your choosing to stay to the task at hand is a statement in
itself and if the people want more time to tour, etc, perhaps setting an
appointment to do that would work better for you.  In fact, possibly set a
few folks coming at the some time.  Not exactly an OPEN day, but a privately
arranged appointment.  This could be alot of fun and set the stage for your
own variety of disseminating information...AND in your own time.  
Yes I like that idea and will try it.  I shall gather names and call them back when
I have time to get them together.
Actually, I am still working with tempering this one..it's never an easy
situation..always calls for a certain kind of diplomacy.  When I would be
frustrated and feeling "put upon" I wasn't exactly the best of company..now
I can be kind to them while I take care of myself. I suspect this is one we
all need to master as mainstream is becoming very intrigued by what we are
doing.  Good luck! 

Vicki

At 11:23 AM 8/12/96 +-1000, you wrote:
>Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
>We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
>share many of the ups and downs with our students - Most
>live far away and unfortunately for them haven't seen the site
>- it is not complete and most will be for ever evolving
>The dilema is that people are so enthused by our work
> they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
>chat and I just can't get anything done.
>I'm getting to the point where I am afraid to go into the garden
>in case some one sees me, and wants to talk permaculture!!
>I like to be generous - that's why I like permaculture
>I like the sharing side of this way of life.
>I thought of running an open day but I don't feel ready - and anyway
>that might just attract MORE sightseers on the off days.
>I realise there is a shortage of permaculture sites - but permaculture
>isn't a collective business - or some kind of religion - for me
>it is about modifying our behaviour until is seems a normal way of life.
>And being a spectacle isn't part of normal for me. 
>Any suggestions - any one else in the same boat?
>
>
>

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:28:06 +-1000

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From: 	Loren Davidson[SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 2:49
To: 	April Sampson-Kelly
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

At 11:23 AM 8/12/96 +-1000, you wrote:
>share many of the ups and downs with our students - (...)

I have a couple of thoughts, from other situations where I've tried to get
something done with people hanging around me:

1)  Establish "official" visiting hours, when you (or your helpers -- HINT)
will be available to give tours and answer questions.  During non-visiting
hours, you may be able to "teach by doing" -- do the stuff you were planning
to do anyway, but be willing to explain (with any free breaths you have)
exactly what you're doing and how it fits with the whole.  

2)  Hand things like shovels, spading forks, etc. to the bystanders and tell
them how *they* can help (during non-visiting hours at the very least).  If
people are *that* interested in Permaculture, then it's only fair you share
*all* the experience with them.  It's a bit subversive, but it will cause
the "looky loos" to vanish and will help you get the job done with the
people who are *really* interested...
a lot of my visitors are those who are part of the system from time to time
I must admit, they are giving me mulch or plants or office stuff - so I have to 
give them TLC for want of a better term.
Even so - our garden gives them something and they never leave empty handed.

3)  Have a sign made up and posted at the entrance to your gardens,
answering the most commonly asked questions, listing official visiting
hours, the reasons for same, and the risk of being asked to help if a person
wanders in at an otherwise inconvenient time.  
I like that !!!- "enter at own risk - risk
of being given a job that get your hands dirty"

4)  Similarly, make up a flyer for a "self-guided tour" of your garden and
have copies in a sheltered kiosk at the entrance to the gardens.  Yes -
I will do this seeing I already have that stuff on the home page and have 
full colour poster size designs for lots of other people!! should do it for 
ourselves.

5)  Learn how to talk with people and work at the same time.  I almost
didn't put this in, but this may be part of what you need to work on.
Permaculture is about sharing the surplus...but it's also, I believe, about
taking care of your own.  
This is really the hardest part - I didn't want to turn others off permaculture sites
being open to visitors BUT THIS CAUSES GREATEST SORROW - when people
come to visit and the children talk to them and they respond to the children to 
get them to be quiet or go away!!!  This is their home and they helped build all the gardens
this is their work and they are now - copying us and pointing things out here and there!!
I'm a great gabber myself, and will take any
opportunity to stop what I'm doing and chat with folks.  One of the things
*I'm* working on is the discipline to stop talking and start working after a
certain set time.  
Go with the flow Loren - we don't fight nature so why fight your own nature?
And I think you really *can* teach as much, if not more,
by letting people watch as you're actually working on things...
True - and you can teach what people are ready to learn
Good luck...sounds like your main problem is that of too much success!
Thanks for your time, April
Loren
Loren Davidson
[email-masked]
http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
make no law".

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:45:02 +-1000

Thank you for replying,You posed the question Why not grow from being a fan into
 and fantastic activist Colin??
Well thats a very good question.I just went and pulled Permaculture 1 from
the bookshelf and to my shock/horror the date inside Feb 84.And the only
thing I hhave done is set up a Productive apiary.
The single biggest problem I face Is lack of money. I have to make some
drastic changes myself
I am interested to know how many responses your enquiry elicited
Regards Colin Morton
Well an aviary is quite a lot more than many of us started out with, Is it planted inside
with things that require protection from larger birds?  Have you covered the structure
with vines?  does the Birds water come off the structure?  Do you use the manure?
Do you grow their seed?  Do you grow worms for the birds too?  Have you put some
egg layer in there for yummy breakfast E.g. Hens, bantams, Quail?

It could be loads of fun,
April

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From: [email-masked] (Thilo Pfennig)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:51:05 +0200

>BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the
>Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a
>standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few
>newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future.

Lawrence I still have my hierarchy own.* with own.eco.permaculture and
own.eco.lets that should be available via UUnet. Maybe we can use that? I
had many problems distributing this and it is now really *empty*.

(OWN <URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/own.html>
means One World Net, a project of my own, which I use to help people in
networking and communication (BODHI = Buddhist Organsization in Australia,
AFRONETZ = German Africans , my buddhist friends anyway,etc.) Until now
there are only a view things happening (including some contacts to
Cambodia) - I do this all on my own (Mac ;) ). But I see that one man can
do many things to provide information and to help taht things get going.

>I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
>Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers
>and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.

Maybe we can make a link from your newsserver to one here in Germany - and
than from sunsite to an university of interest in Australia (and so on)?

What is own.* now:

own.admin               One World Net News-Administration
own.eco.lets            Local Exchange Trading Systems
own.eco.permaculture    Permanent (Agri)culture
own.general             general discussion about the "One World Net"
own.health.bach_flowers Dr.Edward Bachs Flower
own.health.homoeopathy  Samuel Hahnemann's System
own.health.reiki        Dr.Usui's System
own.test                Just testing
own.tibet.wtn           World Tibet News <[email-masked]>

(Eco stands for economy *and* ecology, which I found best as a
sub-hierarchy for Permaculture and LETS)

What do you think?

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:[email-masked]>

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From: [email-masked] (Thilo Pfennig)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:51:05 +0200

What is own.* now:

What do you think?

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:30:14 +-1000

It getting late in the morning - 
that's a joke
I will really need to study this server stuff when Its not
so hot in the office-
the office is pretty solar senstive - only Australia doesn't 
run on a strict 4 seasons timetable this is the month 
when the european species start getting warmed up
and concentrate on flowers not shading the office.
It is also the month of winds and mood swings in the population
I think- no not me, never
I am off to Perth - driving - it is 4000 ks - quite a haul.
but I need to get away, I need quiet. 
I need the expansive desolate desert
Sounds like you've got a good plan - hope it doesn't
cost anymore as we pay by the minute to access the mailing list
and only sometimes surf the net.
I don't know if I handled the abuse well - maybe next time
I should ask the mailing list what they want in a discussion
and maybe I should only offer a summary of the letters that I recieved 
but I thought that to have an ongoing input the concepts should be 
thrashed out over time.  
I can handle bottom-feeders - we need a respect for diversity
and we would be nothing without those micro-organisms, don't
you reckon?
April

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From: 	Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent: 	Saturday, 14 September 1996 8:57
To: 	[email-masked]
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
mailto:[email-masked] - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:[email-masked] - 
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html 
:
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> On the whole, I have been really heartened by the depth of 
> understanding by most of the respondents
> to my search for others with experience of loss of 
> peace in the field of permaculture promotion
> [Obviously some people have not yet understood that
> permaculture is about culture and not a series of gardening
> tips - this resulted in some rude messages about my filling
> cyberspace with personal dilema's!!!  They have threatened to
> leave the mailing list - what luck.]

Years ago I had this mailing list, permaculture-mg, started by
the good folks at North Carolina Cooperative Extension at NCSU;
It was my intenion and hope that permies around the globe would use it
any way they saw fit and felt comfortable with. I see that you have.
Carry On!
Those who have a problem with that can unsubscribe or start their own 
list or newsgroup.

BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the 
Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a 
standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few 
newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future. 
You will be able to access it from my permaculture homepage (the URL for
that newsgroup will force your news reader to access our server) or simply
point your news reader software to our server & pick it up there.
I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers 
and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.

---

From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:30:14 +-1000

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From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:30:14 +-1000

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