Subject: Re: Holding steady under fire/Harassed Permies

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 97-01-14 09:56:07 EST, Elfpermacl writes:

<< During the civil rights movement, when white people were accepted as
having an equal interest in civil rights, I was a body guard for Martin
Luther King when he came to Boston.  >>

Dan, how can you mention working for Martin Luther King, and suggest violent
retaliation in the same breath.  What made Dr. King so powerful was his
strength and courage not to lower his movement to that level.  Yes he's dead
and the maggots have had their fill, but what an inspiring legacy he left for
all of us. These "Rednecks" won't change if you throw hand granades at them,
and don't forget you end up living next to them, with an air of paranoia and
fear.  What do you do when you bump into them in the grocery store? As you
both turn away in shame for your stupid actions?
And... as for your somewhat arrogant comment that I don't know anything about
these things, I have experienced this in another way.  My wife and I bought a
house across the street from a major Crack house in Berkeley... Reverse Urban
Rednecks? We didn't know it at the time. They soon became quite hostile
towards us, swearing at us , throwing bottles at our house, smearing dog shit
on a door. These were pathetic people, I couldn't bring myself  to respond
like that. A lot of other nasty stuff was going on. And these were dangerous
people, guns, you bet.
Anyway what finally happened was the whole neighbor hood rallied together and
we let them know we weren't going to take it anymore. We raised the standard
of the neighborhood, which was happpening anyway.  One day a U-Haul showed up
and they were gone.  
My point is, I could not act like an idiot, just because they were
confronting me that way. Patience helped alot. Dan think about it. Did the
civil rights movement go right over your head so you thought you'd give
permaculture a go ?
Apologies to the list for going off subject a bit...

---

From: "Paul Gill" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:10:01 +0000

All,

I thought what Dan was saying is that one does not have to take it. 
>From the 'retalitaion' he has spoken of, it seems to be largely in 
the legal sphere and centred around just making it clear to his 
harassers that he is not going to lie back and take it.

I do not regret making the initial comments that sparked this debate, 
but I am disappointed to find it turning into a slagging off fest.

We all have to deal with the situation that presents itself. In Dan;s 
case, as in my own, we have faced considerable opposition and have 
just had to work through it.

The primary goal of my original comments was to let others know that 
everything is not peaches and cream all the time, and to let those 
out there who are suffering similar actions know they are not alone. 
>From the replies I have received, it is clear thaat this sort of 
thing does happen, but is rarely spoken about. I was impressed with 
the replies I did get to my comments, but disappointed that some 
chose to attack myself or Dan and asking what we had done to bring 
this sort of treatement down onto us.

I know what sparked this treatment of those involved in our little 
part of the world. We were running a rehabilitation and counselling 
clinic. As a result, we stumbled across paedophilia and drug running 
in the local district. While we could of then abandoned our people in 
that situation, we chose to defend them. I, and none of the others 
involved, would change that decision if given the opportunity for a 
rerun. We have stood up to those who have wronged us and those around 
us and this is the sort of retaliation we have had to endure. We have 
had stock shot, brakes on cars interfered with, police conspiring to 
defraud and jail us, and in recent weeks, we have seen the whole 
thing burnt to the ground.
Things are not always peaches and cream, but sometimes, it just gets 
too much.

And I do not know a lot about American History, and so I will not 
speak too long on Dr King, but I understand that the thing that made 
him the strong figure that he was was that he did not lie down and 
take it, but instead encouraged all around to rise up against the 
oppression that was previously being silently endured.

Paul Gill
Canberra Australia

> From:          [email-masked]
> Date:          Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:01:24 -0500 (EST)
> To:            [email-masked], [email-masked],
>                [email-masked], [email-masked],
>                [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked]
> Cc:            [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
>                [email-masked], [email-masked]
> Subject:       Re:  Holding steady under fire/Harassed Permies

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:43:35 -0500 (EST)

>Dan, how can you mention working for Martin Luther King, and suggest violent
retaliation
>in the same breath.  What made Dr. King so powerful was his strength and
courage
>not to lower his movement to that level.  Yes he's dead and the maggots have
had
>their fill, but what an inspiring legacy he left for all of us. These
"Rednecks"
>won't change if you throw hand granades at them, and don't forget you end up
living
>next to them, with an air of paranoia and fear.  What do you do when you
bump into
>them in the grocery store? As you both turn away in shame for your stupid
actions?
>And... as for your somewhat arrogant comment that I don't know anything
about these
>things, I have experienced this in another way.  My wife and I bought a
house across
>the street from a major Crack house in Berkeley... Reverse Urban Rednecks?
We didn't
>know it at the time. They soon became quite hostile towards us, swearing at
us
>, throwing bottles at our house, smearing dog shit on a door. These were
pathetic
>people, I couldn't bring myself  to respond like that. A lot of other nasty
stuff
>was going on. And these were dangerous people, guns, you bet.
>Anyway what finally happened was the whole neighbor hood rallied together
and we
>let them know we weren't going to take it anymore. We raised the standard of
the
>neighborhood, which was happpening anyway.  One day a U-Haul showed up and
they
>were gone.  
confronting
>me that way. Patience helped alot. Dan think about it. Did the civil rights
movement
>go right over your head so you thought you'd give permaculture a go ?

>Dan, how can you mention working for Martin Luther King, and suggest violent
retaliation
>in the same breath.  What made Dr. King so powerful was his strength and
courage
>not to lower his movement to that level.  Yes he's dead and the maggots have
had
>their fill, but what an inspiring legacy he left for all of us. These
"Rednecks"
>won't change if you throw hand granades at them, and don't forget you end up
living
>next to them, with an air of paranoia and fear.  What do you do when you
bump into
>them in the grocery store? As you both turn away in shame for your stupid
actions?
>And... as for your somewhat arrogant comment that I don't know anything
about these
>things, I have experienced this in another way.  My wife and I bought a
house across
>the street from a major Crack house in Berkeley... Reverse Urban Rednecks?
We didn't
>know it at the time. They soon became quite hostile towards us, swearing at
us
>, throwing bottles at our house, smearing dog shit on a door. These were
pathetic
>people, I couldn't bring myself  to respond like that. A lot of other nasty
stuff
>was going on. And these were dangerous people, guns, you bet.
>Anyway what finally happened was the whole neighbor hood rallied together
and we
>let them know we weren't going to take it anymore. We raised the standard of
the
>neighborhood, which was happpening anyway.  One day a U-Haul showed up and
they
>were gone.  
confronting
>me that way. Patience helped alot. Dan think about it. Did the civil rights
movement
>go right over your head so you thought you'd give permaculture a go ?

You have a remarkable talent for missing the point.  Or is it deliberate.
 There are many kinds of violence and yours is leaking through in your post.

My point is that there is a time to turn the other cheek and a time to defend
yourself.  I put my ass on the line to defend a nonviolent strategy.  I don't
think that should be special, everyone should be willing to share the risks
to defend our rights, but obviously everyone wasnt there beside us.  I had a
wife and a newborn and this was not a trivial decision.  I will not put up
with some idiot demeaning it.  

If you want to talk reason to people while they beat you into the ground, go
ahead. Wise people will just shake their heads and walk away muttering about
natural selection.  No go pester someone else.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.