Subject: Re: NOT just farming

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:36:32 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 1/10/97 11:16:30 PM, [email-masked] (April
Sampson-Kelly) wrote:

>The only way forward is to bring the farms to the people
>and their waste containing those minerals BACK to the farm
>and the easiest way to do this is to live in FARM-like villages.
>
>When people realise that permaculture is not really about farming
>it really a threat to farmers - that's when people get upset.
>
>I do see a future for the farmer.  I see a return to caring for 
>a wider circle people - an extended family with their dwellings forming
>the neucleus of the village.  They are united in their care and love
>for each othe and their land.
>April 

Well, given the scale of change that is needed and the entrenchment of
interestes vested in the food system of dependence we call agriculture,
present day farmers have little to worry about.  We should be supporting the
family farmer, in my opinion, and the small holder while promoting
bioregional independence.  I'll eat a mango once in a while, though I don't
see any growing around here.  But I know for myself if the trucks stop
rolling with produce, I'll probably just eat a better diet because the exotic
and junk food I like won't be available.  

As I see it, the problem isn't ending farming, the problem is keeping it
working long enough to replace it with permaculutre.  If the system collapses
before we are ready, then there will be a real nasty time.  While this seems
all but inevitable, nonetheless I'm for trying to avoid it.

Meanwhile, I'm more concerned with the direction of permaculture.  I see too
many people taking short cuts because time appears to be short (and probably
is.)  The fact is that short cuts move us further from our goal.  As
designers we should know that, those of us who actually ARE designers.  We
only have time to do it right ONCE.  If we can hold the deterioriation of
global systems at bay long enough for the next generation to make some
progress toward healing them, we will have done a monumental job.  Meanwhile,
one's best is always perfect as what more could you do?

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

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From: Maddy Harland <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:46:48 GMT

You may like to check out our Web site too:
http://www.uea.ac.uk./~e415/home.html
Hope is growing everywhere.
Maddy Harland

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:17:12 -0500 (EST)

I had this conversation with Kirkpatric Sale some years ago.  Kirk wants to
distribute the population of New York City all over upstate New York.  I
opposed this on behalf of my rural upstate friends.  In my view, this would
smear the city all over the state and it would soon all resemble the less
desirable aspects of New York.  The cities, however, will not strangle in
their own waste, they will die of thirst when it becomes impossible to
maintain the supply.  Here in Florida, there is a serious movement, probably
successful in the long run, to divert the beautiful, clear, clean Homosassa
River, among others, to the city of Tampa so that they don't have to get
serious about limiting growth and conservation.  Our friend in St.
Petersburg, a sister city on the other side of some bridges, was talking
about buying waste water.  It was a US$1,000 to dispose of water for the
city--water that could not be used on food crops!  Obviously I suggested a
roof catchment.  She is a naitive of Jamaica where this is common and jumped
on the idea.  The roof is already guttered and they can buy off the shelf a
very large plastic tank for $1,000, with no further charges except
maintenance from time to time. While such approaches are ignored, cities
continue to exert political pressure on the country side.  It is time to make
them solve their own problems.  I'm happy to teach permaculture in cities;
they will not get one drop of my water.

Also related, I happened to read in a newsletter we get on exchange from Nova
Scotia that the USA (no, NS has not become part of the USA, they just take an
interest in what trouble their southern neighbors stir up)...the USA has 200
million acres of abandoned farmland.  This is probably in excess of two acres
per family.  (One hectare = 2.4 acres, so say a hectare per family at a first
guess).  what family practicing permaculture could not produce all their food
on 2 acres of abandoned farmland (the other .4 acre needed for house and
sheds)?  So there are 400 million acres of farmland that we currently farm
more or less for recreation since as a nation we do not need to.  If we could
put one percent back into forests and prairie per year, in a few years we
would have reversed a large fraction of the damage caused by the European
invasion of this continent.

The fault, dear Brutes, is not in our lack of land, but in ourselves.  The
issue isn't about what is possible, but what people are willing to do.
 Intentional communities serve a certain need, but as a solution they would
cause more damage than they would heal.  We can't afford to replace the
current housing stock--we haven't that many trees left for one thing.  And we
can't afford to set up entirely new infrastructures in new places for the
entire population.  For people seeking to prove that communities can be
sustainable, at least less destructive, they are fine.  For people who just
haven't the energy to deal with trying to fix existing cities, they have the
value of a retreat.  But if everyone who knows what to do retreats, then the
cities will continue their current trends. I'm not a city person and I don't
much like neighbors close enough to see--never have.  I was born just in
time--a little later and I would be frustrated my whole life.  Folks who are
into community, if they are truely concerned about cities, may wish to
consider living there.  As permaculturists, surely we know by now better than
trying to fix any situation from the outside.  The essence of permaculture is
participation in the forces with which we contend and cooperate.

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From: Greg Jarrett <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:50:31 -0600 (CST)

At 04:17 PM 1/23/97 -0500, [email-masked] wrote:
>desirable aspects of New York.

Greetings:

I don't know Kirkpatrick Sale's argument for wanting to redistribute New
York's population, but I sure sympathize with his goal.  The carrying
capacity of the land and the happiness of the creatures on it would both be
greater if we were more evenly distributed across the landscape.  

Our collective first attempt at living on this land we took from the natives
has been a dismal failure, and one result has been that most of the smaller
farming communities have been depopulated.  Meanwhile, our cities are
bloated sprawling beasts that devour resources far and wide.  A
redistribution of the population is in order and I hope it will happen
naturally and progressively as cities become less habitable.  Population
redistribution and new thinking are critical to survival.

For that reason, our work in the country is important for developing new
models of relating with the land and each other.  When people start coming
out of the cities--and we already see quite a few urban refugees here in the
Ozarks--there need to be a lot of permaculture farms and other progressive
enterprises there already to offer new paradigms for how we will re-inhabit
the land.  I think we would all be amazed at how many people would like to
develop a harmonious, functioning life on the land, but they don't have any
examples to show the way.

Population redistribution could definitely be ugly, and probably will be,
but I prefer to hope and work for something different.

Regards to all,

******************************************
  Greg Jarrett     [email-masked]
   P.O. Box 93
    Fox, Arkansas  72051
     USA
      501/363-4532  fax 363-4578
******************************************

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:03:01 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 1/25/97 11:48:21 PM, [email-masked] (Greg Jarrett)

>but I prefer to hope and work for something different.

If you keep the city folks in the city, when the shit hits the fan, the city
folks die.  If  you move them to the country, when the shit hits the fan,
everyone dies.  Fortunatley, you couldn't get the city people out of the city
at gunpoint, so you are just wasting your time, not also threatening the rest
of us.  the manure is in the air and closing fast on those whirling blades.
 I'm more concerned with helping people who want to be self-relaint, and have
some chance of pulling through the decades ahead, than pissing away my
effectiveness trying to save everyone.  

Kirk still lives in NYC.  He hasn't followed his own recipe for salvation.
 If he won't go, who will?

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From: "ali mixx (aka lee schnaiberg)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:30:11 -0500

[email-masked] wrote: 
>Subject: Re: NOT just farming
>at gunpoint,so you are just wasting your time, not also threatening the rest
>of us.

brother you sound like such a snob ;-(   why don't you bring the country TO
the city? there are *many* cities that are composting en masse, that are
looking into bioshelters and living machines and rooftop greenhouses,
retrofitting, ecological design.... if the wise ol' country folk write off
the city folk as too set in their ways we *both* loose.

> so you are just wasting your time, not also threatening the rest
>of us. (prophesy deleted...   you don't need a weatherman toi know which
way the wind blows!

>effectiveness trying to save everyone.  

well then you are now obliged to go and help those in the city because i can
assure you from my research (i am completing a documentary called "the Earth
changes, about global climate change, survival and human evolution), there
are many city dwellers seek self reliance, in NYC, in west Philadelphia in
brooklyn, heck, even in South Central Los Angeles. I have seen organic
remineralised-soil gardens where once there was race riots. do you talk to
many 25 year olds in the city? they want to hybridize the life systems so
that organic produce comes from arms reach as opposed to being driven across
the world in reefer trucks, they want to dome their roofs, get rid of roads,
they mostly do not drive cars, there are some who re-use vegetable oil for
their diesel engines. 

besides, brother dan, if you think for a minute that any part of Florida
will survive the Earth changes, you prove what i have believed since i began
my journey (and niether native elder, ivy league chair, permaculture guru,
has yet to disprove it) and that is, that even the most knowlegeable persons
are missing HUGE chunks of the information. you included. what about
migrating sub-tropical diseases? what about bacterias from millions of
rotting carcasses? what about nuke plants on fault-lines? what about "the
shadow government"? and if the ice age has already started (the glacier on
the western shore of greenland, Earth's magnetic north pole,  has been
growing since the 80's) then you will need underground domes for growing
food, a decades worth of alfalfa and other sprouting foods (unless you have
an extra warehouse...  and lots of guns, after they tire of killing in
miami, people will go out a looking...)

we are one. here on planet Earth we are all in the shithouse together. and
it is our COLLECTIVE will, our COLLECTIVE knowlege and application and our
COLLECTIVE intent and vision that will get us out of this jam. the 10, 000
or so bio-dynamic, bio-intensive, permaculture farmers will not be able to
conduct the changes nescesarry to survive (ie: cutting the greenhouse gas
concentrations from 360 tp 275 ppm, this takes a collective....)

sorry for crapping on you dan, and this is my first post here (i try to stay
quiet as best i can ;-) but i will not read exlusiveness from anybody and
accept it unless, they have their own planet (with water, soil, and a nice
N-O-A atmosphere).  NOW mor than ever it is our pulling together that will
bring about miracle, and that is what we need if you and i and the other
billions are to make it.

peace be with you, 
keep up the good work, but please SPREAD THE WORD AS BEST YOU CAN!
lee schnaiberg

dir, the Earth changes,
Cine Cism inc.

____________________________________________________________________________
____========================================================================
========
the Earth changes. the Earth changes like every cell in your body daily changes.
cine cism inc.        "the world is new!!!!"                              ~peace
(514) 844-1798                                 [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:41:50 -0500 (EST)

<< >Subject: Re: NOT just farming
 >of us. >>

Hey Dan, Didn't you use to live in the city? Your high White horse has
splotches.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:53:29 -0500

>Hey Dan, Didn't you use to live in the city? Your high White horse has

Yes.  And before that I lived in the country.  And before that the city, and
Before that the country.  I was born in the city of Worcester, Massachusetts,
USA, in 1939 if that helps you develop an ad hominum argument a little
better.

As you know perfectly well, I did not advocate that people should be
imprisoned in cities, but that we do not advocate wholesale redistribution.
 Look at the mess created in the USA when the hippie anti-ware folks in the
late 60s early 70s figured that since the war was over they would go and
start free communes in the country.  I think a GM assembly plant would  not
do as much damage as they did.  Then they lamented that the rural people did
not like them.  At that point I didn't like them and they were my friends.
 The issue is to avoid spreading people who will not accept the constraints
of nature and think that cheating on natural law is something like cheating
on their income taxes.  

I've sent an extensive private reply to cinecism because this tread is
getting weird and I'm not going to contribute to its continuance.  I've
always been willing to go to cities and teach urban permaculture and I've
learned to minimize expectations and just do my best wherever I am.  I'd like
to learn to eliminate expectations, but I'm far from there yet.  If I hadn't
taught and lived in cities, you would just attack my view because I lacked
those credentials.  Give it up.  People will stay in cities whether we agree
that they should or shouldn't or continue to disagree. I'd rather discuss
what is possible in cities with city people who want to do something.

Anyone who wants to see my email to cinecism (well named) should email me
privately.  I'm not interested in continuing sophmoric discussions.