Subject: organic farming

From: Andrew Erb <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:13:40 -0600 (CST)

Hi my name is Andrew Erb I live in Jefferson City, Missouri and want to
start growing organic produce. Can anyone reccommend specific vegtables,
herbs, or dwarf fruit trees, especially those native to or suited to
Missouri, to start growing organically so that I can get started without
going in the red my first year.  I am determined to grow organically and
would appreciate any advice.  Also I would like to help low income
families and communities start growing organiclly so they can eat
healthier food, and improve their self esteem by providing for themselves. 
If any one has knowladge of Missouri specific.  I would also like
info/advice on building and sustainable communities development.  I would
like to at least partially support my family, I am currently working and
want to supplement my income in the next year by grow ing and selling
vegtables, herbs, etc. I would like to concentrate only on growing
organically for my sole income in the next 2-5 years.  My question is how
do I get started with very little capital and can I make a profit my first
year.  I have access to 5 acres of pasture My brother in law has 5 acres
of pasture with a slight slope and a lot of sun.  I don't know the soil pH
but will have that tested.  He has agreed to partner with me in this
business which could be a good way for both of us to supplement our
incomes

Thanks for your time and help!  

Andrew Erb
2119 B Millbrook Ct. 
Jefferson City, MO USA 65101
573-636-8732

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:27:44 -0500

>Thanks for your time and help!  

Hi Andrew:

This really depends on your market and your marketing.  Most folks can grow
enough food to make a living, organic or otherwise.  The problem is selling
it for enough money.  If you sell retail, that is a lot of your time when it
is really most needed in the field.  If you sell wholesale, you get a buck or
two for bushel of squash.

If you are near a population center that you think wants organic food enough
to go out of their way for it, you have a shot of making it.  Look into a CSA
or similar marketing agreement directly with consumers.  One youth project
that I worked on sold futures on the open market.  That is, the kids went
around in late winter and sold people little slips of paper.  Give us $5 and
we give you a slip worth $6 in vegetables, redeemable in a matter of months.
 (Pretty good return.)  A CSA works something like that except you get the
people more involved.  Don't get hung up on how "Official" CSA (stands for
community supported agriculture) formats go--work out what is best for you.
 Please try NOT to have people drive to your place individually.  This makes
your farm much more polluting than a conventional farm using chemicals that
wholesales.  There are various solutions--get some of the more vocal
consumers you meet in charge of solving the problem of transport for your
area.  

As for the crop, the members tell you what they like to eat.  You can grow
more for other markets, of course.  With consumers, you can be a little early
or late with a crop of string beans and they don't care.  When you are really
experienced, and providing you have affordable irrigation, you can eventually
get into marketing contracts where you get a premium for guaranteeing your
high quality produce at certain times (will deliver 50 cases of organic snap
beans--maybe even variety specified--July 7--that specific.  July 8 won't do.
July 5 won't do.  They had better be perfect for picking the afternoon of
July 6.)

Without subsidy of your risk from the community,  it is pure shit luck if you
run in the black the first year.  It just isn't a reasonable request,
regardless of whether or not it is necessary in your case.  it takes time to
get good at growing commercially (not like having a nice garden) and to
develop markets and a reputation for quality.  It also takes time with a
piece of land for your produce to DESERVE a repuation for quality.  I've
taught this sort of stuff for 20+ years and moving to a new place in Florida,
we do not expect to make money the first year.  

A few final tips, if it fits your philosophy, have at least a few beef or
pigs--beef are cheaper to feed overall--to sop up your surplus.  Stuff that
gets overmature or ugly squash that nobody wants.  If you can keep the feed
organic, you can have organic beef, pork, eggs, etc.  Since most grass is
organic anyway, beef is a good start and you can run forage crops on land
that is in excess of what you can market.  Second, take a GOOD permaculture
design course and learn how to use the Keyline method of cultivation and
particularly of water storage.  This can really mean bucks to you if ;you are
serious about making it in farming.  Third, plan for work flow.  Regardless
of how much money you can get for them, you can only pick so many
raspberries, cut so much asperagus.  They may be high value crops per acre,
but you need to keep working at a steady pace, not in fits and starts.  You
won't get this right the first year so go light on perennial crops that are
labor intensive until you build experience.  This becomes more important if
you hire help.  You want one hired person for a year rather than 50 people
hired for a week.  You just get better help that way.  

Good luck.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  [email-masked]  

We don't have time to rush.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 07:27:44 -0500

Hi Andrew:

Good luck.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:21:02 -0500

Hello, Dan 

Thanks for sharing your post to Andrew with the list.
i can sense from your posts that we share many of the same ideas.
I've been a long time reader of OG, Countryside, and a have read widely on
organic farming, biodynamic farming, and what I can find on permaculture.
I agree with Bill Mollison's concepts , and also the need for holistic
planning.

I'm trying to turn my farm into a showcase/education center for sustainable
ag, permaculture.

Though I may be better versed than Andrew in the methods..your sage, and
sobering advice is well noted. I, too, have come to the conclusion that
unless you can market directly to the customer, and achieve a reasonable
return on your labor ala Joel Salatin it's hard to make a go of it.

I'd like to start a small CSA for approximately 50 people initially at $500
per share. My farm is near Greenwood , South carolina. I've got two large
ponds of over3acres and a mix of pasture and cut over pine. I'd also like to
include livestock to better utilize farm produce, and improve soil etc.

My problem is trying to work out some sort of continuous production schedule
that can be handled by two people, and that will produce sufficient high
quality produce for shareholders that represent a good value to them.

I could really use some advice on the laying out of the intensiv e raised
beds, and the selections, and amounts of seed or transplants to put in.

I tend to be quite conservative and would probably estimate my initial yields
at 50% of what proven local results are.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on the above. I realize that certain of
your conditions may not be the same, but that certain principles, and tips
that you and others have found work, may also work in my area.

I'd appreciate comments on any of the above from other experienced gardeners,
CSA'ers etc.  

Best wishes to all.   Frank

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:14:05 -0500

Oops, you did say where your farm is.  Sorry.  Unfortunately, I'm not
familiar with the elevation, and therefore the climate, of Greenwood.

DH

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:27:58 -0500

Hi Frank:

Well, work flow and yield flow are related.  They are indeed quite variable
from region to region and place to place, subject to just about every force
that affects a farm from market prices to labor costs to soil conditons to
farmer skill.  You shouldn't accept any SPECIFIC advice you get on these
issues over the net.  Not knowing even what part of the world your farm is
in, I can't even generalize.  

Given that these are very site-sensitive issues, the only way for me to give
sound advice would be to visit you on a consuting basis, which, frankly,
doesn't sound reasonable given limited cash flow.  Not that it wouldn't be
worth it in the long run, but it sounds like cash flow in the short run is
also vital. In any case, bearing in mind that you probably won't get someone
sympathetic with all your views on growing, nonetheless the way to go is to
get as much as you can from cooperative extension service, if you are in the
USA, and whatever your government offers for on-farm help if elsewhere. 

With permaculture, in such a circumstance I usually offer to host a worshop
or course on site.  I'm not sure that I would call this a permaculture design
question, except in a very transitional sort of way.  It could be treated as
a permaculture problem, invloving a much more wholistic view of the land and
the people on it than we have gotten into.  Anyway, I can discuss this
further with you offline if you are interested.  

Two general references on yields are John Jeavons How to Grow More..., which
is outstanding as it gives exact planting instructions and a range of yields,
unless it has changed a lot in recent editions.  This is probably the best
book on growing food in raised beds in the English language.  There is also
Knotts Handbook for Vegetable Growers, published by Wiley-Interscience, if
they still put it out.  (My copy is a 1980 edition.)  They give a lot of
information an organic gardener doesn't want to know, a bit of information
that you need to interpret for it to be useful (even essential), and stuff
like yield data that is essential.  

Without experience, you don't know if the main picking of Commodore string
bean (tops for yield and flavor in my opinion) will be ready in the nominal
60 days or maybe as early as 55 days or as late as 75 days, depending on a)
when you plant, b) your farm soil conditions which will change over time, c)
the climate that year, and d) how much attention you give them.  If you have
been farming regularly, you know that some years you are always playing
catchup and other years you feel like a wizard because you have been on top
of every task from day of germination of the first seed.  (If all your years
feel like catch up, cut back on the area you manage intensively and you will
experience a total increase in yields.)  Its an art, and if you don't have
the soul of an artist, sell to the bulk market at the going rate when the
stuff is ready.  

Finally, let me restate one concern and make one additional suggestion.  

My concern is that you want a lot of people driving back and forth to your
farm.  This sounds like economic good sense, the American way (with
apologizes if you are from elsewhere), etc.  But it is damn unsustainable.
 As it stands with the present system of food production in North America,
for example, the largest energy input into the family meal, aside from
cooking, is not the tractor or the fertilizer, or the transport 1300 miles
from farm to supermarket, it is the transport of the little bag of groceries
in a large car.  If one were only able to address one area of sustainability
in the food system, that would be it.  It really is a serious matter if you
are really serious about sustainability.

Secondly, I recommend managing only the land that you are sure you can manage
well and giving the rest over to animals.  Laying hens are particularly nice
as they can be turned into the garden where you have finished with a crop to
clean it up for you.  People really like fresh, free range eggs.  And
chickens lay most during the growing season so your marketing is made more
efficient.

Well, I could go on all morning, but I have a place to run.  This is as far
as I want to go on this thread, right now, unless you want to email me about
a workshop, etc.  We also have a driectory, TRIP (The Resources of
International Permaculture) that has about 2070 groups listed, many of which
might have answers to some of your questions.

>I've been a long time reader of OG, Countryside, and a have read widely on
organic
>farming, biodynamic farming, and what I can find on permaculture.
planning.
>I'm trying to turn my farm into a showcase/education center for sustainable
ag,
>permaculture.
sobering
>advice is well noted. I, too, have come to the conclusion that unless you
can market
>directly to the customer, and achieve a reasonable return on your labor ala
Joel
>Salatin it's hard to make a go of it.
>
per
>share. My farm is near Greenwood , South carolina. I've got two large ponds
of
>over3acres and a mix of pasture and cut over pine. I'd also like to include
livestock
>to better utilize farm produce, and improve soil etc.
>
that
>can be handled by two people, and that will produce sufficient high quality
produce
>for shareholders that represent a good value to them.
>
beds,
>and the selections, and amounts of seed or transplants to put in.
>
>I tend to be quite conservative and would probably estimate my initial
yields at
>50% of what proven local results are.
>
your
>conditions may not be the same, but that certain principles, and tips that
you
>and others have found work, may also work in my area.
>
>I'd appreciate comments on any of the above from other experienced
gardeners, CSA'ers
>etc.

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From: "Philip Stranex" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:02:34 +0000

> From:          [email-masked]
> Date:          Tue, 7 Jan 1997 10:27:58 -0500
> To:            [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
>                [email-masked]
> Cc:            [email-masked], [email-masked], [email-masked],
>                [email-masked], [email-masked]
> Subject:       Re: organic farming