Subject: Permaculture Webspace

From: "Mike Smith P00297 - HICNET" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 19:00:08 EDT

Hi guys,

Lawrence tells us:
--quote--
We already have the following stable, permanent Internet permaculture
resources:

ftp site:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/
permaculture/

gopher site:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/
permaculture/

World Wide Web site:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html

e-mail ID at sunSITE, accessable from the webpage:
[email-masked]

Internet mailing-list:
[email-masked] (subscribe via [email-masked])
(Archives of this list are accessable via the webpage, ftp & gopher).
--end quote--

MIKE'S COMMENTS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is really great!!!!!!!!!!!!  I thought it would be months before we got
to this point.  Now I want to get clarification on a couple of things:

     Do the administrators of this server give "official" approval for us
     to set up a significant site on their equipment?

     Are they likely to change their mind and want money from us in the
     future?

     Can we get guest login authority so that a few of us can do the
     maintenance regardless of our global location?

     Can we obtain a location in the server which is lower down the file
     structure so that we arn't seen as a sub-set of sustainable agriculture
     or just under the London wing (no offence intended Lawrence)?

     Lawrence, are you willing to subordinate your current page to become
     a component in the prime permaculture web presence?

It may also be possible to establish Dwayne's site as a mirror so that we
can reduce bandwith concerns accross continental links.  What do you think
Dwayne.  Also Dwayne, do you still have the offer of space on the machine

at Sydney Uni with the 10meg Aus-US link.

I had a look at the web space but it still needs content.  I am envisioning a
space where we have an main web page with a "map" of links which is depicted
below (arrows are intended to indicate links to other pages, small points their
content and asters "*" the maintainer.

MAP
~~~
PermaNet Home Page
.  Preamble/Intro
.  Short description of the content of each link
*  PermaNet Administration Collective (us)
->   PC FAQ
     *
->   General Resources Page
     .  Download web browser of choice
     .  Link to search engines
     .  Some of what Lawrence has on existing page
     *  Lawrence
->   Global Directory
     .  Permaculture groups/orgs by country, state, region with contact
        details.
     *  Maintained by Permaculture International Journal.
->   Permaculture Institute
     .  Course structure
     .  Policies & procedures
     .  Sylabuses for courses - Intro, Design, Advanced, Degree, etc.
     .  Local degree course moderators
     .  Contact details - postal address, location, phone, fax, etc.
     *  Permacuture Institute
->   Making Permaculture Work (Case studies)
     .  David Holmgren's Place at Hepburn Springs, Victoria, Australia.
     .  Village Homes, California, United States.
     .  Cuban Outreach project by Permaculture Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
     .  Malaney Community Credit Union.
     *  Mike Smith
->   Permaculture Shopfront
     .  Standard resources and merchandise for sale.
     NOTE WELL:  This should not be a centralised "mail order" type of system.
     It should refer people to their LOCAL supplier.
     *  Us
->   Course Resource Material as FTP site
     .  Standard Course notes for people who want to run Intro and Design
        courses as well as workshops.
     .  Scanned bitmaps for people to use in their material.
     *  Mike Smith
->   Reference Bookshelf
     .  Permaculture One
     .  Permaculture Two
     .  Bits of the Designer's Manual (Index, Intro and other teasers)
     .  Bits of Intro to Permaculture    "       "             "
     .  Bits of Teaching Permaculture Creatively     "     "    "
     *  Publishers, Authors and Us
->   Events and Convergences
     .  International Convergence 1996
     .  Continental Convergences
     *  Us
->   Archive of Permaculture-MG
     .  As seen on Lawrence's web page.

     *  Lawrence
->   Links to Affiliate Organisations
     .  Sustainable Agriculture
     .  Organics
     .  Bio-dynamics
     *  We do links they do pages
->   Publications
     .  Permaculture International Journal
     .  Permaculture Drylands Journal
     .  Permaculture Activist
     .  Regional "Group" publications
     *  We do links and provide space for them to do pages
->   Administrivia
     .  PermaNet Collective Mail List (how to contact us)
     .  Proposals
     .  Priorities
     .  Scope of Webspace
     .  To-Do List
     .  Volunteer List
     .  Project assignments
     .  Change Management
     *  Us
     ->    Tools
           .  HTML Jump Space
           .  Graphics Manipulation
           .  Society for the Preservation of bandwith graphics management
              home page.
           .  Browsers
           .  Lotus Document Viewer
->   Testing Space
     .  Test web pages
     .  Test FTP stuff
     .  Test graphics
     *  Us

This is not an exhaustive list, but it is intended to indicate the scope of
the sort of thing I'm thinking about.  Sort of a One-Stop-Shop for people
who have an on-going (or passing) interest in Permaculture.

Regards

Mike D. Smith, Canberra, Australia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
       PermaNet--->  HTTP://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Convenor, Permaculture ACT (Australian Capital Territory, Canberra)  - PACT
Treasurer, Australian Centre for Environentally Sustainable Systems  - ACESS
Chief Editor, The Mulch, Journal of Permaculture ACT                 - MULCH
E-mail Administrator, Health Insurance Commission, Aust. Fed. Gov.   - HIC

[email-masked]
X.400.............g=mike; s=smith; p=ausgovhic; a=ibmx400; c=au
PACT Address......PO Box 886, Civic Square  ACT  2608, Australia
Home Address......10 / 12 Blackett Cres, Greenway  ACT  2900, Australia
HIC Address.......PO Box 1001, Tuggeranong  ACT  2900, Australia
ACESS Address.....49 Wentworth Avenue, Kingston  ACT  2604, Australia
Phone (work)......+ 61 6 203 6040
Fax (work)........+ 61 6 203 6186
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" - Mollison
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "Mike Smith P00297 - HICNET" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 00:47:10 EDT

Reference: Your note of 18/10/95 06:53
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rachel Frifelder said
--quote--
Two questions:
Is Mike Corbett a "Permaculture" (capital P for brand name Pc) designer?
If not I think it is wrong for brand name Permaculture with all its
exclusiveness to lay claim to Village Homes.

Second, why do you ascribe the saying "If you're not part of the
solution, you're part of the problem" to Mollison?  I think it massively
predates his debut in the public eye. (not to mention the fact that from
what I know about his lifestyle he is part of the problem himself)
--end quote--

Rachel,

It is my understanding that at the time Mike was involved in the design and
construction of village homes he was not involved in the Permaculture movement
although I could be wrong.  So, when I refer to Village Homes in a Permaculture
context I do not in any way feel that I am making a claim that Village Homes
was developed as a "Permaculture Development".  However, I do feel that in
attempting to explain to lay people what Permaculture is about in an urban
context it is very helpful to refer to a development like Village Homes as an
ideal that we could aspire to.  There is no doubt in my mind that it embodies
many Permaculture principles.

I do not believe that Mike objects to us refering to Village Homes in this
way.  In fact, the ABC documentary series on Permaculture featured Village
Homes as a significant landmark urban development.  The segment gave the
development an extremely good exposure with an intelligent discussion of the
social and urban ecology aspects of the design.

Although I may be misinterpreting the tone of your message, I get the
impression that you have had your toes trodden on by one or more Pc people.
That is really unfortunate :-(.  Back here in Australia we are a bit more
laid-back about the whole thing and there is no intention that Pc become
exclusive.  In fact, there is a significant amount of effort on the part of
many people to include many diverse dispilines, making Pc inclusive rather
than exclusive.

I don't think that anybody could rightly say that Permaculture has all the
answers.  However, it is a vehicle that we can use for some significant
change in the developed world and tangible assistance to less developed
countries.  It's not just the gurus of the Permaculture movement who do
good work (and although Bill is not perfect he has had a major impact on
the involvement of your average person in the long-term paradigm shift
to environmental sustainability).  Many people inside and independant of
Permaculture do real, valuable and tangible work to make life better for
all and get the message "out there".

Having a non-academic basis for research and a grass-roots context for
action, the Permaculture movement often finds and places significant value
on traditional social structures and land management regimes.  The gathering

of this information and these techniques into a palatable and digestable
package MUST occur for any real significant change to happen.  And although
Permaculturists are not the only people doing this stuff, we do approach it
from a viewpoint which is more relevant to many rural and urban people.  One
thing that we are often applauded for is that we actually involve ourselves in
the implementation wherever possible with the objective that people end up
understanding the reasoning and techniques rather than just changing their
habits.

At this point I'm starting to sound like an apologist for the Permaculture
movement.  That is not my intention.  What I would like to achieve is a spirit
of co-operative effort between the many diverse groups who work for long-term
environmental sustainability and a more benign impact for our species.  If a
particular person with a Permaculture bent has "spat-the-dummy" at you and
caused you to downgrade your opinion of Permaculture then they have done an
unfortunate thing.  Any group of people who is striving for co-operative
effort with other groups should also strive for some social oiling to make
things go smoothly.

In relation to me ascribing the quote to Bill Mollison, my only defense is
that I am not infalibile (far from it).  In the pre-Internet environment
where many of us come from there is often a "chinese whispers" syndrome.
I have heard so many other people ascribe the quote to Bill that I came to
believe it and start to propagate it.  I will, in future, paraphrase the
message in the quote and attribute it to myself unless I can find the correct
person to attribute it to (if you know, that would be a great help).  After
all it is the message in the quote that is the most important thing; the
sense that abdicating your responsibility to sustain the world's environment
is tantamount to complicity in the destruction of our planet.

I appreciate your feedback.  I hope that in responding to your questions in
this way I have not only answered them but also stressed to all the people
who subscribe to these lists the importance of working together co-operatively.
The way we perceive each other is very important, particularly if these
perceptions are voiced over a medium with such wide reach as the Internet.
The common wisdom is that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything
at all.  That philosopy does not really help people find the common ground
between their differing viewpoints.

Finding our common ground; that space amongst all our understandings and our
expectations is something we MUST do otherwise we can not communicate.

If we can't even speak with each other; we will perish.

Regards

HIC Address.......PO Box 1001, Tuggeranong  ACT  2900, Australia
ACESS Address.....49 Wentworth Avenue, Kingston  ACT  2604, Australia
Phone (work)......+ 61 6 203 6040
Fax (work)........+ 61 6 203 6186
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Abdicating your responsibility to sustain the world's environment
 is tantamount to complicity in the destruction of our planet" - Mike Smith
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "Mike Smith P00297 - HICNET" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 00:47:09 EDT

Rachel,

Regards