Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider

From: [email-masked] (Werner J. Lilie)
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 1995 03:35:54 +0100

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Mary E. Bowen) wrote:

> According to the doctor, my husband has received a nasty bite from a brown
> recluse spider.  The only info we have been able to find indicates that skin
> cells begin to die at the point of injection of toxin and continues to grow.
> The doctor will measure growth within a week to determine if surgery is 
> required to remove the lump that has resulted.
> 
> Any information about the spider, bite symptoms, treatments would be
> greatly appreciated.

Im into spiders a bit, whats the latin name of that guy (the spider :-) ?
What size ? How does the doctor know it was that spider ?

Tschuess.....
            WL

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From: [email-masked] (Melissa N. Matusevich)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:07:57 GMT

Aren't the brown recluse and the black widow the only two
poisonous spiders found in the United States?

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From: [email-masked] (James Aldridge)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 03:19:47 GMT

To my knowledge, all spiders are venomous. The two you 
mention are the only ones generally associated with 
significant morbidity and mortality in the U.S.

>poisonous spiders found in the United States?  

James Aldridge
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

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From: Christopher Wood <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 02:31:35 -0800

Please ignore name in header.  This message is from Rod Crawford, Curator 
of Arachnids, Burke Museum, University of Washington.

Which newsgroup did this thread originate on, anyway??  If it can be 
identified, further discussion should be limited to that one.  
Otherwise, please everyone limit followups to sci.med and sci.bio 
in the interests of saving bandwidth.  My response to the original 

> > Any information about the spider, bite symptoms, treatments would be

There are several things you should know regarding "necrotic spider bites."

1) This is a "grab-bag" designation for conditions where there is an open 
sore of unknown origin and the root cause is not obvious.  In nearly all 
such cases, no spider was seen and the MD has no basis for asserting that 
any spider was involved, let alone what *species* of spider is 
responsible.  Approximately 80% of "spider bite cases" referred to 
specialists prove to derive from other causes such as fungus infections, 
insect bites, poison ivy, etc.

2) the Brown Recluse Spider (Latin name Loxosceles reclusa) occurs in the 
south central USA, basically from Louisiana north through Kansas, west to 
Nebraska and east as far as the Florida panhandle.  There have been 
isolated findings outside this area but nearly all genuine bite cases are 
within the area noted.  Unfortunately, few MDs are aware of this fact; 
when they find a "necrotic spider bite" they automatically blame it 
on the only spider they've ever heard of.  Outside its primary area of 
distribution, essentially 100% of "brown recluse spider bite" cases are 
cases of *mis-diagnosis* by the MD.

3) The local symptoms of recluse bite (as well as of several other spider 
species) result from a hemotoxin that damages capillaries, cutting off 
blood supply to an area of tissue and causing that tissue to die.  The 
venom acts very rapidly although the effects may not be complete for 
weeks.  Thus, no subsequent treatment can reverse the tissue 
desctruction.  Antibiotics do not help, except in preventing secondary 
infections.  In the vast majority of cases, the bite-caused necrosis will 
heal in 4-6 weeks.  A few unlucky victims have a protracted response, 
lose a larger amount of tissue, and require corrective surgery.  Bites of 
this type are almost never fatal.

4) Spiders found in the USA whose bites are clinically significant 
include at least the following (there are probably a few others not 
yet discovered):
Eastern Black Widow, Latrodectus mactans
Northern Widow, Latrodectus variolus
Western Black Widow, Latrodectus hesperus (only widow west of Texas)
Brown Recluse, Loxosceles reclusa (south central USA)
Chilean Recluse, Loxosceles laeta (So. Calif. cities)
Several other recluse species which rarely contact humans
Hobo Spider, Tegenaria agrestis (Pacific Northwest, bites generally mis-
   diagnosed as brown recluse with resulting incorrect treatment)
(no common name) Cheiracanthium mildei (northern U.S. cities)

Most of these are unknown to reference books, which are typically 20 
years behind the primary literature, at least where spiders are concerned.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but you've got me onto my hobby horse 
(and the subject of a large percentage of the public phone calls I receive).
------  Rod Crawford <[email-masked]>

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From: "David B. Richman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:21:15 -0700

The brown recluse spider is a specific member of the spider genus
Loxosceles-  Loxosceles reclusa.  It ranges from eastern New Mexico to
northern Georgia and from Texas to Illinois, with occasional records (no
doubt transported) from most of the continental United States.  The venom
of the members of this genus is tissue-destroying and the bite usually
results in a lesion from the size of a nickel to a quarter.  Occasional
the venom is transported to the liver or other internal organs and
systematic poisoning results.  The usual danger is from infection of the
open wound, which takes a long time to heal.  Early treatment with
cortizone is often helpful, if the victim is not allergic to steroids.
Several other species of Loxosceles are found in the United States, mostly
in the Southwest.  These include L. deserta (California, Arizona), L.
apachea (New Mexico and West Texas), L. blanda (Pecos River Valley New
Mexico and Texas), L. arizonica (Arizona), and L. devia (Texas).  Two
other species have been introduced, including the more dangerous South
American L. laeta (Cambridge, Mass. <apparently eradicated> and California).
 As people move into wilder areas in the west they will be encountering
the local species more and more.  The brown recluse is well adapted to
living in the dry environment of people's houses and will build webs
(rather fungus-like productions) in drawers and in any clutter left
around for any length of time,

David B. Richman
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM

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From: Jim Herndon <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 11:07:20 -0600

Concerning the spider bite which was asked about by Mary Bowen,  there is
a method of treating spider and also snake bites which I believe was developed
here in Ada, Ok. by a Dr. Osborne.  I have never had the treatment, but have
talked with several people who have and they all say it works great.  I also
understand that it has been used in hundreds of cases, and I believe that it
always works.

     The method involves the use of a "stun gun" on the area.  After the patient
recieves the electrical shock,then the area heals up rather quickly. It probably
depends on how long you waited before receiving the treatment. That is all I
know, but if your doctor is unable to find out about the treatment, please
let me know and I will try to get you the name and phone number of a doctor
who can tell you about it.  Dr Osborne has now died (not from a spider bite),
and I'm not sure who is the local doctor who knows about it, but feel sure
I could track one down.

Good Luck,
Jim Herndon   [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Alan Harder)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:30:29 GMT

>>>>> " " == Melissa N Matusevich <[email-masked]> writes:
In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Melissa N. Matusevich) writes:

 > Aren't the brown recluse and the black widow the only two poisonous
 > spiders found in the United States?

It depends on what you mean by poisonous.  There are lots of spiders
out there that can raise a big mean nasty welt.  I personally consider
that poisonous.  The Black Widow and Brown Recluse do have the
nastiest poisons, though.  Of course, they pale in comparison to the
funnel web spider in Australia.

-Alan Harder                
 [email-masked]

The above commentary, which does not *even* represent the opinion of
the American Mathematical Society, is sold by weight, not by volume.
Some settling of the contents may have occurred during shipping.

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From: [email-masked] (Donna Sullivan)
Date: 7 Mar 1995 14:55:06 -0500

Any more info on the Brown Recluse spider? I have only heard of them recently.
Have they just gotten to Mass.? What do they look like? What happens if you get
bitten? (I don't want to go around worrying every time I see a spider and I don't want to
kill one without a good reason.)

Donna Sullivan

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Cash)
Date: 10 Mar 1995 13:42:25 -0600

>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]

	 According to the doctor, my husband has received a nasty bite from
	a brown recluse spider.  The only info we have been able to find
	indicates that skin cells begin to die at the point of injection of
	toxin and continues to grow.

	 The doctor will measure growth within a week to determine if
	surgery is required to remove the lump that has resulted.

These bites can be quite nasty. I remember reading about a case in Oregon
about 15 years ago. The victim had severe problems for _years_ afterward--a
large open sore that would not heal. I trust that this was an unusually
severe reaction, and that your husband's bite will be cured quickly. 

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      [email-masked]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: [email-masked] (Pierre A Plauzoles)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 00:35:54 GMT

In a previous article, [email-masked] (Christopher Wood) says:

>Which newsgroup did this thread originate on, anyway??

I think you should know the origin of this post: here on s.b.e.l.

>insect bites, poison ivy, etc.

This may in fact be true to some extent, but I think you should go to 
Silverton, Colorado.  Before you, arm yourself with sufficient antivenom 
to cover any incident that might occur.  A friend of mine, John Petros 
(ex-President of the Pacific Railroad Society), was bitten by a spider 
whose bite caused symptoms **very similar** to those you described, 
apparently while standing in the vicinity of the town's train station 
platform.  His doctor not knowing what was going on, he decided to 
investigate himself.  It was then that he found spiders under the edge of 
the platform.  I believe these were subsequently identified as Loxosceles 
reclusa.  Incidentally, L reclusa has been identified from the edge of 
the San Gabriel Mountains in Sierra Madre, California (Los Angeles 
County, northeast of Los Angeles).  Whether this has since been revised 
or not I do not know.
-- 
Pierre Plauzoles   [email-masked]
Canoga Park, California

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 12:06:51 PDT

In article <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]> writes:
> Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.physics,sci.bio,sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera
> Path: 
news.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!concert!hear
st.acc.Virginia.EDU!pen.k12.va.us!mmatusev
> From: [email-masked] (Melissa N. Matusevich)
> Subject: Re: Brown Recluse Spider
> Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 00:07:57 GMT
> References: <[email-masked]>
> Organization: Virginia's Public Education Network
> Lines: 4
> Xref: news.primenet.com sci.med:119303 sci.med.physics:3375 sci.bio:25709 
sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera:662
> All spiders in the U.S. contain venom, and, therefore, are venomous.  More 
than 13 species are able to produce human toxicity after a bite.

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From: [email-masked] (Alan M. Horowitz)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 01:46:49 GMT

What exactly is the difference between poison and venom?

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From: [email-masked] (Samuel Sun)
Date: 20 Mar 1995 07:32:53 GMT

> What exactly is the difference between poison and venom?

Venom is poison inflicted by bug and snake bites.

Seriously, venom is generally used to describe the poisonous or paralytic
"liquids" with which various animals subdue prey or protect themselves
i.e. snake venom, bee sting venom, etc.  

Sam Sun

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From: [email-masked] (Julie "Mudgie" Stahlhut)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 13:07 est

> > poisonous spiders found in the United States?  

It's a matter of interpretation, really; spiders paralyze and digest their
prey by injecting a combination of enyzmes and other nasty organics into
them.  Any spider bite, for this reason, will be painful; it's full of
antigens and chemical irritants, just like a bee sting.  (Bee venom is
different from spider venoms, but a spider bite hurts, and causes a
local reaction, for the same reason.)

Some spiders, like the black widow (Latrodectus mactans) and the brown
recluse (Loxosceles sp., and I forget which sp.) can deliver venoms which
are especially toxic to humans.  Deaths are rare, but the experience
of being bitten by one of these spiders would be thoroughly unpleasant
to a human.  

For what it's worth, the leading cause of arthropod-inflicted human 
deaths in the U.S. is anaphylaxis (severe generalized allergic reaction)
as the result of stings by bees and wasps.  Spiders aren't in the same
league, nor are insect-borne diseases like eastern equine encephalitis.

Julie K. Stahlhut, Hellgrammite Tamer   [email-masked]
     "My love, she's like a severed bug head in the morning."
             -- Richard W. Stahlhut, thoroughly out of context.