Subject: Re: 7th gr.sci.( insects)

From: [email-masked] (Rob King)
Date: 13 May 95 14:52:00 GMT

[email-masked] (loopy)  replied:

L>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
 >(MrMendelev) wrote:

 >>      We  are a group of students doing a research project.
 >> We would like to find some information about butterflies.
 >>      We  know there are 6 families of butterflies.
 >> They are Hespriide, Pipilonide, Pieridae, Nyphalde, Riodinidae,
 >> and Lycaendae. We would like to know how butterflies get there color?
 >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For readers that have not had experience with this before... there are
QUITE often students on the net that try to get people to "do their
homework for them" ... I've seen LISTS of simple questions posted to
many technically-oriented newsgroups that could be answered by little
effort just by looking in a general reference book.  My teaching
experience has given me somewhat ambivalent feelings toward this, but I
feel too many students rely on computers to do work for them, and many
don't even know how to use library resources... even BOOKS, for that
matter. No offense to "MR BEDELL" et al... but this belongs in the .k12
newsgroups..!!... that's what they are for... I'm sorry if I sound
unsympathetic... and I realize that *THIS* discussion is off-topic of
leps per se... but if 'certain' posts are not just IGNORED... groups
like this will become inundated with rudimentary babble.

Rob.

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From: "Sharon J. Collman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 21:30:37 GMT

The debate on whether to answer such posts has raged on Entomo-l, and 
Butnet (as well as here before I believe).  

1.  The research these students are doing may have more to do with 
preparing them for how to get information in the future than with 
butterflies or with both.  In other words, querying a list may be the 
assignment.

2.  In previous debates the discussion split between not wanting to do 
homework for students to seeing it as an opportunity to turn students 
into people interested in insects by capitalizing on the "teachable 
moment".  Most felt that the delete button was an easy option if you 
didn't want to reply.  Others wanted to be able to reply.

3.  Several people related that they were intensely interested in insects 
as a kid, but lived where no library was adequate for the task.  These 
youngsters also may not have a library available for finding information 
quickly.  One answer for these students would be to suggest a good 
reference that is easily availble for purchase.  One that gives more than 
six families and spells them correctly.

4.  Some interest was expressed in forming a mechanism for those 
interested in teaching and providing info and those seeking info to 
connect, perhaps via a list.  A suggested name was "grubnet".  

5.  Having been the recipient of such class assignments as an extension 
agent, I know the frustration and volume that it could grow to.  However, 
the possibility of turning a generally entomophobic society into one 
fascinated by insects is tantalizing.  And with many people helping as is 
possible on an internet connection, the work for any individual would not 
be overwhelming.  

6.  If you are interested in helping with such a place to handle 
inquiries, email me directly and I'll keep the names and explore set up a 
discussion among willing partners.  (or if anyone else wants to do this 
I'm happy to defer).

Sharon J. Collman
c/o Center For Urban Horticulture
University of Washington  GF-15
Seattle, WA  98195

Phone:  206-543-8616 
Fax:    206-685-2692
EMail:  [email-masked]

NOTE NEW ADDRESS

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From: [email-masked] (Brian Mcewen)
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 05:01:08 GMT

Rob King ([email-masked]) wrote:

: For readers that have not had experience with this before... there are
: QUITE often students on the net that try to get people to "do their
: homework for them" ... I've seen LISTS of simple questions posted to
: many technically-oriented newsgroups that could be answered by little
: effort just by looking in a general reference book.  My teaching
			<deletia>
	yes, those pesky students post occasionally, don't they.
 If we could get rid of them, let's follow it with those scientists 
who actually ask other people for help with their RESEARCH.

	As if tenure isn't stagnating enough, these scientists ask other 
people to produce material for THEIR OWN PERSONAL research efforts and 
gain.

	The Nerve!
 
: don't even know how to use library resources... even BOOKS, for that
: matter. No offense to "MR BEDELL" et al... but this belongs in the .k12

	And the "scientists" even have public funds to buy their books 
with, if the publisher doesn't send them a copy _gratis_.  Any they 
evidently can't even be bothered to read them or current journals.

	sheesh.  no wonder kids today have the idea these requests are ok.

-------------------------------------
	
	Schools today are making use of multimedia capabilities wherever 
possible.  Network packages are part of this approach. This use puts 
students in contact with people actually in the field, and helps bring a
sense of immediacy to the subject at hand.

"Yes, people can really make a living studying insects" "Insects have
important effects on things humans do" are a couple concepts that I 
personally feel are worthwhile, and likely to be learned ( if only by 
osmosis) thru use of the newsgroups.

	I feel your comment about books being readily available
 ( especially for insects ) is not accurate.  Not every city is a 
university town, I've lived places where the "public library" was 
woefully deficient in science texts, let alone entomology in particular.  
For example, most general biology texts will not answer the question you 
cited above.

	If it really irritates you, give them your favorite text as a 
reference for them to look up.

	Don't worry about whether or not they can actually access it.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+  
| " Information is pretty thin                          Brian McEwen       |
|       stuff, unless mixed with experience.                               |
|                        -Clarence Day                  [email-masked]   |
|                                                       [email-masked]    |
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