Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w?
From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
To: [email-masked] (Richard Chapman)
Cc: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 08:59:09 -0500

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w?
To: [email-masked] (Richard Chapman)
Date: 	Wed, 1 Apr 1992 08:59:09 -0500
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from "Richard Chapman" at Mar 30, 92 2:51 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Richard Chapman writes:
> I have the RIM loader. Can someone send me a file with the BIN loader
> in RIM format (in any format you like [...]
 
I can send you the BIN loader as a uuencoded PKZIP'ed file (or compress'ed
if you prefer).

But this brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed here:  what is
the copyright status of ancient, but originally DEC-owned (like BIN)
PDP-8 s/w?  Can I legally post (or receive from a friend) FOCAL-8 and
BASIC-8?  What about EDIT or the assembler?  Are they so old now that
they've become like Charley Chaplin movies and fallen into the public
domain?

I have a small handful of such programs that I'd gladly share with
needy 8'ers but for this fear that the DEC police might descend on me!

> 1) What about a cross-assembler I can run on my unix workstation or
> PC?  (any cross-compilers out there?).

Neil Gray's PDP-8 simulator package contains a cross assembler.  Minus
a couple of bugs and hard-coded paths, it works fine on several
machines I've compiled it on.  I can supply my diffs (or maybe the
whole asm source?) to interested parties.

> Maybe even patch gcc itself to output pdp-8 code
 
Oh, oh; don't let CL hear you say this! :-)

-- 
 "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR"
[email-masked]   [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ]  Bruce Walker

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:41:02 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: DEC copyrights

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:41:02 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: DEC copyrights

For what it's worth, DEC's official policy on software -documentation-
is that if DEC isn't selling it any more, then it's OK to copy it.
I believe it says so in the preface to the Documentation Product Directory
or whatever it's called, anyway a DECdirect person told me so on the phone too.
 
Obviously this doesn't mention the software itself, but maybe it's a good
clue as to whether they care enough to sue you.  Note that the diagnostics
are listed in the Digital Assisted Services price list to this day, so those
are probably off limits, although they used to come free with the system (right?).
 
Re:  C for the PDP-8 -- WHY would someone want to use a language whose
whole purpose is to hide the PDP-8 from you, just use some unix box for that!
 
[email-masked]

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 10:50:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] (Richard Chapman)
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 10:50:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked] (Richard Chapman)
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>

>I have a small handful of such programs that I'd gladly share with
>needy 8'ers but for this fear that the DEC police might descend on me!

DEC stopped existing when the 11/780 came out; they mutated into Digital
then.  They're notorious for having short memories.

Me:  "I've got a GIGI".
DEC: "Who makes that?"

I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8.

======================================================8--<

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:03 EST
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Response to bmw (Bruce M. Walker)

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:03 EST
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Response to bmw (Bruce M. Walker)

Re: Older DEC programs, etc.

    RIM never gets sent because you toggle it in by hand to in turn get
other things in, so there's no issue.  In fact, if you write a document
on the history of computers, you can include a nice, neat,
well-commented DEC-compatible RIM loader that just happens to be
binary-compatible with DEC's code, and call it your own, perhaps just
giving copyright notice to DEC within the document.

    There is also an alternative that avoids the issue entirely:

    Don't even use RIM, which is an inefficient, albeit standard format.
There is a user program called the HELP loader, which was distributed by
DECUS, which in turn was used to load in both the BIN and RIM loaders in
HELP format.  DEC didn't seem to mind even then that RIM and also BIN
straight from their paper tapes transformed to this alternate encoding
was being distributed through DECUS, so I think that they lose their
copyright because of it.

    There is even a more efficient technique called the SLIM loader.  It
was described in DECUSCOPE quite a number of years ago, including the
technique for punching SLIM tapes ala HELP.  I don't think it was
distributed, but I don't see a problem with it.

    As to BIN loaders themselves:

    DEC has three BIN loaders:  a short-lived standard one that was
replaced by the stable one, and a third called the "self-starting"
binary loader.

    The self-starting loader has a bug in it in that whenever there is a
field change, it causes the last word in the old field to be mistakenly
loaded into the new field instead :-(.  To ward this off, all newer
diagnostics, etc, have superficial origin settings in them before a
field setting, as well as after.

    All of these loaders are inefficient versions of what they are
trying to accomplish.  I have written an "ultimate" replacement for
them, and it's a standard feature of P?S/8.

    Invoking the P?S/8 command:

    .BIN/P

    or

    .BIN/P/F

gets the loader, and a system bootstrap into 07600-07777, including a
standard RIM loader.  The P?S/8 bootstrap occupies 07600-07642, RIM
occupies 07756-07777, so BIN is the stuff in the middle.

    There is one feature removed from DEC's BIN which slightly helps
make it shorter, which is that DEC's loader includes a dynamic choice of
low-speed or high-speed loading by reading the console switches to
determine the loading device.  The P?S/8 version uses the /F switch to
make BIN and RIM both high-speed or both low-speed if it's absent from
the original command.  The only "feature" lost is that you have to have
a switch register to determine where to load from in case you are
vacillating.

    Note that some machines lack a front panel, so it's possible to run
without one this way.  (8/M and 8/a systems use front panel options, not
givens.  In any case, when was the last time anyone changed their mind
about the load device in the middle of a multiple load? :-))

    So, the shorter P?S/8 version of the BIN loader minus the I/O switch
is a better candidate for this purpose, and has no DEC copyright at all.

    Note that RIM has no options; DEC published two versions, a
high-speed and low-speed RIM.  (BTW, P?S/8 can also punch RIM and BIN
tapes from binary files, or convert one to the other, etc.)

    By "the" assembler, I assume you mean either PAL III or paper-tape
MACRO-8.  Neither are acceptable for serious use as an assembler; just
too many features missing.  Also, the Neil Gray thing as an assembler is
just a toy as well.

    The only "real" assemblers for the -8 run on OS/8 or P?S/8.  (A
close attempt is TOPS-10's PAL10 cross-assembler, but it also has a few,
likely correctable, problems as well.  See the Kermit-12 documentation
for a detailed comparison of the three environments.)  Most of these
aren't suitable for paper-tape usage because they are heavily dependent
on their environment, including pass-specific overlays, etc., and the
fact that they create system-dependent binary files from
system-dependent input files, etc.

    Focal-8 isn't really wanted by anyone, since it is a poor derivative
work upon Focal, 1969.  Focal, 1969 has many derivatives, some published
by DEC, and some by others who distributed them to DECUS.  I personally
distributed MS/8 FOCAL, and there was at least FOCAL, 1973, and TAFT
FOCAL.  For OS/8 there is OMSI FOCAL later updated (but the sources held
proprietary) as I believe U/W-FOCAL.  The binary of that has made the
rounds without complaint by the author even in its heyday.

    I currently support P?S/8 FOCAL, which is the most compatibile with
the original, so the prevailing documentation on how to customize it is
mostly accurate information.  The work of many other people is salvaged
this way, whereas the others have taken so many "liberties" with the
source that most of the info doesn't apply any more.  Except for certain
"excised" areas taken for system interface, most of the listing many
bought from DEC is still valid, so their innovations are still
applicable.

    Focal-8 incorporates a minor fix that was first corrected in
FOCAL-12, having to do with the nuances of one command.  I incorporated
the one-word change in a different way to prevent obsolescence of the
original.  The problem is that FOCAL-12 and Focal-8's method is to make
the code one word longer.  My soultion is to patch about 35 words to
incorporate the same effective change in no extra space.

    Focal-8 has no other positive features, only negative ones:

    Removes the code that checks for machine type, and can only run on
8/e,f,m,a, yet doesn't take advantage of them.  Later DEC sells
separately an overlay file that allows it to run on the older machines
as a subset of what FOCAL, 1969 just does as distributed.  (The only
thing wrong with FOCAL, 1969 as distributed is that the hack machine
identification calls an 8/e-class machine an -8, because the tests
pre-date the 8/e :-).)  Why pay more for less in a more tedious form?
:-)

    The other "feature" of Focal-8 is that it insidiously self-destructs
if run on DCC-112 machines, which at the time was considered competition
by DEC.  One of the darker chapters of DEC history is that they bothered
to sabatoge their own software to not run on competitor's products.
Anyone looking at various OS/8 sources will see the curious edit history
note referring to "removal of DCC check" which refers to when the
programmers balked and insisted upon removing it.  During this time
period, DEC did various "legal" things that weren't very pretty :-).

    I sold a limited license to Intersil for the use of P?S/8 on the
Intercept series of IM6100-based -8 compatibles.  (This was before the
VT-78.)  Up until then, Intersil was buying copies of the paper-tape
stuff and reselling it to their customers.  DEC's legal department was
actually considering legal action against Intersil, and later me as
well, but fortunately they concluded, in convoluted legalese, that:

1)  Since DEC made no claims that Intersil's machines were compatible,
it didn't matter.  Since they purchases copyrighted material, they could
sell it to others, not copy it.  Since there was no evidence of Intersil
selling "illegal" copies, there was no problem.  (Note that at the time,
Intersil was guaranteeing the software would run on their machines, yet
because DEC doesn't back this claim, it doesn't matter?  The second
point is clear regarding copyright, but what is the point of whose claim
it is?  Any would-be lawyers willing to render an opinion here?)

2)  Intervention on my behalf was made by friends of mine who worked for
DEC at the time, who explained to various managers, who in turn informed
the lawyers, that

    a)  Not all software for the -8 is created in-house by DEC.
        Sometimes it seems that way, but in reality, there are
        programmers in the real world who are actually not DEC's
        employees :-).

    b)  The system in question was demoed to various managers and
        rejected for various reasons, so it wasn't purchased by DEC.
        Yes, I demoed P?S/8 to a DEC manager once.  He rejected it
        because since it could run in only 4K, whereas OS/8 required 8K,
        support of it would "discourage memory sales".  I guess this is
        a case of making a program too efficient :-) :-).

    DEC never bothered me, and Intersil made good on their royalty
agreement, which was limited to their hardware use only, so I am still
in control of P?S/8 today.

    As far as any OS/8 stuff is concerned, I think that since the DECUS
submission of DM-101 and DM-111 of all of the sources they could scrape
up, and more recently a binary copy of OS/78 V4, any copyright worries
here are non-existant.  I distribute PAL8 and CREF as part of the
Kermit-12 package.

    Re the transmission of the paper-tape stuff:

    You still have to get the stuff to the -8, which is apparently a CPU
only, so how does uuencoded PKZIP'Ed stuff get there?  You still need a
means to transmit it at the end, etc.

    As far as C-compiler output -8 code?  Go right ahead.  When you get
-8 code that actually works without either assembly or logic error, and
also is less than an order of magnitude longer than typical assembler,
some of it might actually fit on a 32K machine, even though I can run my
assembler version on a 4K machine. :-).  A good start is to make the
C-compiler output PDP-9 code, or it too "pristine" to run on the
original unix machine? :-).  (unix started on 18-bit machines, NOT the
-11.)

    As someone else mentioned, the most error-free part of any program
is the part you totally removed by making it more efficient :-).

cjl

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 PST
From: Windows 3.0: the Mac interface done in crayon...  01-Apr-1992 1248 <[email-masked]>
To: asimov::decwrl::"[email-masked]"@ranger.enet.dec.com
Cc: [email-masked]
Apparently-To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 PST
From: Windows 3.0: the Mac interface done in crayon...  01-Apr-1992 1248 <[email-masked]>
To: asimov::decwrl::"[email-masked]"@ranger.enet.dec.com
Cc: [email-masked]
Apparently-To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?

>I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8.

Not quite true.

Some of us still remember the 8 quite fondly.  I first cut my teeth on a PDP-8/E
running TSS/8 when I was in high school.  It started me on the search for a
school that used its big-brother OS, TOPS-10.  From there I got into Digital and
was with the TOPS-10 group until it was disbanded in 1990-91.  

Several former TOPS-10/20 hackers are also members of this list, I bet.

The people who "forgot" the 8 most likely came up through the PDP-11 path and
had most of their experience on machines with eight-bit multiple architectures
(11, VAX, PCs) intead of six-bit (PDP-1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, "20").

John Francini
Personal Computer Integration Engineering
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:06:08 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: DEC's poor memory

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:06:08 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: DEC's poor memory

People inside DEC may remember the -8, but the biggest problem I've always
had with DEC is that anyone who has a phone number accessible from the
outside is uniformly clueless about almost everything.  The only thing that
works with any consistency is calling Field Circus and getting juggled from
person to person until you get to someone who actually DOES something.
I called DECdirect a couple of years ago while OS/8 V3D was still listed
in the price list (as an upgrade only, not the whole package) and tried to
find out what was missing from the upgrade package, and all they could say
was "now wait, which model of VAX are you running?".
 
[email-masked]

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <QdqSb7u2e4NhQ8FYFq@concave>
References: <[email-masked]>
	<QdqSb7u2e4NhQ8FYFq@concave>

> me: I have a GIGI
> DEC: what VAX do you have?....

Don't blame sales people....if they knew about computers, they would be
engineers.  You must be remembering the DEC of OLD, a company of
engineers, for engineers.  Moral of any technically oriented quest:
Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget
sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil.

John Hudak
~

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:37 EST
From: Have you NASed someone today? <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Apparently-To: [email-masked]
Subject: Status of PDP-8 Software

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:37 EST
From: Have you NASed someone today? <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Apparently-To: [email-masked]
Subject: Status of PDP-8 Software

	Never really being a true '8 guy I don't know about the
	actual status of PDP-8 software, although I have followed
	much of the PDP-11 stuff and assume the story is probably
	analagous.

	Digital has donated tons of retired software products to
	DECUS as binaries or source (or both).  Probably the best
	official channel which could accomplish what you seek is
	to work it through the appropriate DECUS groups, who can
	post it to their respective Digital liaisons.  Perhaps
	you could get a legal status that way.

	Specifically to the PDP-8, I know stuff like OS/278 was
	carried in the DECUS catalog... so that ought to be
	fair game and might be derived onto lots of platforms.
	There is probably a lot of other neat stuff in there too.
	Only problem is DECUS probably doesn't even LIST PDP-8
	stuff in the catalog anymore -- they've cut more than
	half of the less popular or technologically dated PDP-11 
	and VAX	software already (although there is still
	probably a DECmate section, I'd have to look).

	Anyway, that's probably the most effective approach.
	Find a champion through DECUS who has PDP-8 space
	mapped into his working set and you'll win.

	Regards,
	rcs

	Digital Equipment Corp., 
	Digital Services/EIS (once "software services"), Knoxville, TN USA

	Disclaimer: opinions expressed are my own.

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:29:30 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Sales people

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:29:30 EST
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Sales people

>Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget
>sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil.
 
Most of the time, schematics, source software, or technical help
is what I'm looking for in the first place!  If only there were a
hardware documentation version of the DECUS library...
 
[email-masked]

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 18:45:28 +0200
From: [email-masked] (P{r Emanuelsson)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? (DEC memory wipeout)

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 18:45:28 +0200
From: [email-masked] (P{r Emanuelsson)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? (DEC memory wipeout)

This probably isn't the right forum, but making people laugh could perhaps
be an excuse.

>I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8.

A couple of years ago I phoned the person @ DEC responsible for software
licensing.

"Hi, I'd like a source code license for TOPS-20."
"Ok..."
<Discussion going on for 10 minutes>
"Ok, I'll check it up for you and get back to you as soon as possible."
"Great, thanks."
"By the way, this TOPS-20, is that a third-party product?"
"<GASP> <CHOKE>"

A day later he calls me back and triumphantly exclaims
"Hey, I called Geneva and you were right! There was something called TOPS-20!"

To his defense I must say that he actually did get me the license.

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Wed,  1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], "Anthony A. Datri" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w?
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <QdqSb7u2e4NhQ8FYFq@concave>
References: <[email-masked]>
	<QdqSb7u2e4NhQ8FYFq@concave>

> me: I have a GIGI
> DEC: what VAX do you have?....

Don't blame sales people....if they knew about computers, they would be
engineers.  You must be remembering the DEC of OLD, a company of
engineers, for engineers.  Moral of any technically oriented quest:
Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget
sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil.

John Hudak
~

Date: Thu,  2 Apr 1992 09:55:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Sales people
Cc: 

Date: Thu,  2 Apr 1992 09:55:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Sales people
Cc: 
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]>

Hear, Hear on the HW version of DECUS!!!!!!!!

John Hudak
~

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:37:38 EDT
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: 93L415 SRAM chip

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:37:38 EDT
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: 93L415 SRAM chip

Does anyone have or know where I can get 93L415 static RAM chips?
They're 1Kx1 and very fast (don't know exactly, but they're used in
the microcode store on the KS10).

Many different parts of DEC have told me to screw off, and Ham/Av
and JDR don't have it, couldn't find it in Newark's catalog.

Thanks,   [email-masked]

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: 93L415 SRAM chip
To: [email-masked]
Date: 	Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:04:33 -0400
Cc: [email-masked]

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: 93L415 SRAM chip
To: [email-masked]
Date: 	Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:04:33 -0400
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from "[email-masked]" at Apr 7, 92 4:37 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

[email-masked] writes:
> Does anyone have or know where I can get 93L415 static RAM chips?
> They're 1Kx1 and very fast (don't know exactly, but they're used in
> the microcode store on the KS10).

I find both the 93L415 and 93L415A listed in the 1986 National Semi
"Memory Databook".  The A-part is listed (pg 6-24) as "Advance
Information".  This part has a 25nS (max) access time.  It looks like
the 93L415 was originally a Fairchild part, 2nd-sourced by NatSemi.

One of these *must* be still available.  Is the problem that you can't
find a NatSemi disti?  There are more National disti's than just H-A.
Or is it that NatSemi disclaims knowledge of this part now?

-- 
 "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR"
[email-masked]   [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ]  Bruce Walker

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:07:54 -0500
From: Jeff Russ <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Misc DEC Equipment available

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:07:54 -0500
From: Jeff Russ <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Misc DEC Equipment available

The following equipment is available immediately.

	FPP-12
	DECMate I
	LA180
	RK05 disk controller
	Several Diablo disk drives (RK05 compatible)

For more information contact:

		Gary Coleman, Uclid, Ohio, (216) 531-4661

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Russ				[email-masked]
University Computing Services		PHONE: (812) 855-2733
Indiana University, Bloomington, IN     I want to buy old PDP[4-9] systems.

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:58:32 EDT
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: FREE LA36

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:58:32 EDT
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: FREE LA36

I have an LA36 which is blocking the way into my storage locker.
Although I was psyched that getting this thing completed my collection
of the entire DECwriter series, I honestly have no need for it, so
I'm offering it to anyone who wants it.
I got it for free (from DEC!), you can have it for free.

I'm willing to deliver it, within reason, if you pay for gas;
I'm going to Boston anyway this coming weekend, so if someone in Boston
wants it, then forget the gas.

[email-masked]   (Troy, NY)

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: CPU diagnostics anyone?
To: [email-masked]
Date: 	Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:10:09 -0400

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: CPU diagnostics anyone?
To: [email-masked]
Date: 	Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:10:09 -0400
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Does anyone have some PDP-8 CPU diagnostics around?  It'd be nice if they
were "on-line" so you could email or I could FTP them.  But if you've only
got paper-tape and can spare it, I'd arrange something.

Thanks muchly!

-- 
 "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR"
[email-masked]   [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ]  Bruce Walker

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Sender: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Subject: last living example of WAITS (Foonly CPU) needs a new home
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email-masked]>,
        PDP-8 Lovers <[email-masked]>
Cc: Peter Lothberg <[email-masked]>,
        Pat Tressel <[email-masked]>,
        Hobroken Gang <[email-masked]>

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Sender: Mark Crispin <[email-masked]>
Subject: last living example of WAITS (Foonly CPU) needs a new home
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email-masked]>,
        PDP-8 Lovers <[email-masked]>
Cc: Peter Lothberg <[email-masked]>,
        Pat Tressel <[email-masked]>,
        Hobroken Gang <[email-masked]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Maximum distribution requestion.

     I have just been informed that the CCRMA Foonly F4, the last functioning
example of the WAITS PDP-10 operating system on the planet, has been retired.
It was powered down a week ago last Friday.  WAITS was the innovative
operating system developed at the Stanford AI Laboratory from a very old
version of TOPS-10 (back when they called it 10/50) -- the last merges were
from 3.54 days.  It had a fantastic display environment which has to date
remained unequalled by `modern' operating systems.

     Unless some kind soul interested in rescuing this piece of history speaks
up soon, it may end up being taken for scrap, perhaps as soon as Thursday.  It
was working as of the time it was powered down, although there were known to
be some glitches in its TTY and Ethernet interfaces.

     This machine and its software properly belongs in a museum, but until the
world realizes what valuable gems they are allowing to be casually trashed, it
is incumbant upon us to save this noble beast.  I would volunteer myself,
except I'm too busy with my myriad projects (including two 2020's) to give the
F4 the loving nurture it so badly needs.  It would probably end up in my
garage, which would destroy it.

     The person to contact for more information is Tovar (that's his complete
name).  He can be reached by e-mail at [email-masked] or by telephone
at +1 (415) 328-0573.

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone?
To: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: 	Mon, 20 Apr 1992 11:40:08 -0400
Cc: [email-masked]

From: [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone?
To: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: 	Mon, 20 Apr 1992 11:40:08 -0400
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>; from "Charles Lasner" at Apr 15, 92 10:49 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Charles Lasner writes:
> Several of us can help with the stuff itself, but I would like to here
> all of the scheme whereby you get the code into core, and what will
> then be hooked up to it, etc.
 
OK, but sit down first :-)  The 'core' is an array of unsigned short
ints in my Sun4 CPU. To get the code into core (assuming the code is in
RIM format), I say:

    hobbes% interp code.rim
    . 7756g

and the RIM loader will load it in.  As you may have guessed by now,
the 'cpu' that I need the diagnostics for is a simulated PDP-8.

> PDP-8 diagnostics can be read into OS/8 which packs the files as "3 for
> 2" of the original tapes, only with fore-shortened leader/trailer, and
> a deliberate ^Z afterwards.  These files can be used with my Kermit-12
> utility K12ENB to create .BOO format of the tapes.  I was careful to
> use the implied encoding sequence so the 8-bit bytes will transfer into
> sequential 8-bit files when de-.BOO'ed on PC's using PC MSBPCT
> programs.  Thus, you can have PC versions of files that ought to be
> directly sendable to the -8 running the binary loader.
> 
> Hope this helps :-).

That would be fine, except that I'd need a copy of the bin loader then,
because I have recently discovered that my alleged copy of BIN turns
out to be some random garbage that I accidentally punched on papertape
about 20 years ago.

Now the reason I need some diagnostics:  my PDP-8 interpreter project
is coming along swimmingly, but I have a problem.  I don't have much
s/w in RIM format, just a copy of 4K BASIC, so that is my de-facto test
suite.  The simulator runs the opening dialogue of BASIC, but it then
loops ad nauseum spewing out line-feeds.  So I either have a bad copy
of BASIC as well (possible), or my simulator is buggy (much more
likely).  I have tested it a fair amount, but some of the more obscure
possibilities (like "jms 177") are possibly done wrong since I have no
real PDP-8 to compare against.

To (possibly) whet your appetite, here is a transcript that I get:

-- begin transcript --
hobbes% interp ptape/basic.rim
. 7756g

SELECT THE SMALLEST SET OF FUNCTIONS NEEDED FROM THE FOLLOWING CHOICES 
ATN         ! !X! ! ! ! ! !
LOG+EXP     ! !X!X! ! ! ! !
SIN+COS+TAN ! !X!X!X! ! ! !
DEF(FN)     ! !X!X!X!X! ! !
SQR         ! !X!X!X!X!X! !
RND         ! !X!X!X!X!X!X!

OPTION       A B C D E F G

TYPE OPTION LETTER?B
DO SUBSCRIPTS START AT 0 OR 1?0
STOP.
READY.

[...lots of nl's elided...]
^C
EMA: 0  MA: 2403  BUS: 4535  LINK: 1  ACC: 7442  MQ: 0000  jms i 0135 [2576]
. 
-- end transcript --

What this is, is basically a simulation of a PDP-8 with extensions: a
built-in ODT console and RIM loader.  ODT is pretty plain, but I've
extended it to include a single-step command and it dissassembles the
current instruction location for you.  The hooks are in, but I haven't
finished: full -8/e (MQ, etc); EMA; more IOT's like high-speed
papertape, etc.

Anyone silly enough to be interested in alpha testing it (it is known
to run under SunOS and MSDOS but it should be easily ported) can drop
me a line.  I can ship you a PC executable if you'd like to just play.

Of course, when this is done, I'll release it to the public domain
(assuming the 'public' doesn't reject it :-).

[As to the ultimate question, "why?", you don't want to know.]

-- 
 "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR"
[email-masked]   [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ]  Bruce Walker

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone?
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Hudak <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked], [email-masked] (Bruce M. Walker)
Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone?
Cc: [email-masked]
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>

PDP-8 simulations?  I am not quite sure what you all are doing, but,
the following information may be helpful.  Here at Carnegie Mellon (CMU)
around the late 70's early 80's there was a cpu and system simulation
language developed called ISPS (Instruction set processor simulator)
or phonetically called "ispis."  As one of its benchmark, standard
architectures simulated was the PDP 8 E (I believe).  The simulator was
used extensively by some companies developing and comparing various
architectures. You would feed it an input instruction string, it would
chunk away and you could display various internal register sets, watch
memory change, etc.  It was ported to lots of machines, including
vaxes and suns.  It ran kinda slow, but was accurate. Many a grad student
found a masters project with ISPS and many a grad student ended up teaching
it to undergrads.  

If there is any real interest in this helping you do what you want, contact
me and I'll see if we have a tape around somewhere.  The last know version
of VMS that it worked under was 3. something.  

John Hudak

Summary-line: 21-Apr          [email-masked]  #someone is selling a PDP-8/E
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 12:16:48 EST
Organization: gnat - Dunellen, NJ
From: [email-masked] (Andreas Meyer)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: someone is selling a PDP-8/E

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 12:16:48 EST
Organization: gnat - Dunellen, NJ
From: [email-masked] (Andreas Meyer)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: someone is selling a PDP-8/E

In case anyone missed it, or doesn't get misc.forsale.computers...

-----cut-here-----
From: [email-masked] (Scott Silverstein MD)
Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers
Subject: PDP-8/E for sale
Keywords: Digital, PDP, PDP-8
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Apr 92 12:53:38 GMT
Sender: [email-masked]
Distribution: misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

Digital PDP-8/E, working, mint condition, for sale.

Complete set of spare boards including
front panel board, various interface boards, software on paper tape.  
Sitting in an air-conditioned den since 1982 after removal from service.

4K core installed, 2 extra 4K core sets included.  Full docs.

Make offer.

I can list boards by part # if interested.

-----cut-here-----

Reply to the address in the message.
I have no connection to this fellow, other than providing this FYI.

Thanks,
Andy

Summary-line: 23-Apr  [email-masked]  #
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 92 0:12:16 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 92 0:12:16 EDT
From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]

From: Charles Lasner <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: USEFUL Simulators of PDP-8's

    A USEFUL simulator of an -8 is not merely a CPU with a few register
dumps, etc., as might be implied in some recent postings.  A simulator
wants to be a complete system, including a device 03/04 console
interface, preferably to a decent terminal emulation such as VT-100,
etc., as well as a disk device, preferably one that exists on a REAL -8
so we can get a running system up from a real machine where it
pre-exists.  Niceties include comm ports and a device 66 lpt:, etc., as
well as native OS hooks such as a file where a device 01/02 reader/punch
does i/o to, etc.

    An optimal device for the purpose is the MDC8 from CESI which is the
PDP-8 SCSI interface to various HD's and high-density floppies.  I have
supplied/can supply working copies of P?S/8, OS/8, KERMIT-12, etc. to
various emulator authors on floppies that can boot from a suitably
configured -8, and hopefully from a completed emulator as well.  Work is
being done on PC and MAC versions I am aware of.