Subject: Help needed extracting WPS/8 files from RX50

From: [email-masked] (Ethan Dicks)
Date: 8 Apr 1993 15:07:28 -0400

I was approached for help this week by a user who has a DecMate II and
about 100 RX50 floppies with years of his work on them.  He has decided 
that the time has come to enter the MS-LOSS world and be compatible with
everyone else at his office.  He likes the DecMates but he hates not
being able to exchange data with any of his coworkers.  So, does anyone
have any advice for how to accomplish this?

I do not presently have access to a VAX with DECdx and/or WPS/plus.  I
should be able to lay my hands on a copy of 22DISK; I do have RX50.ARC,
an old MSDOS driver for (I think) RT-11 RX50 disks.  I do not presently
have a copy of OS/278 for his DecMate II.

Thanks,
-ethan

-- 
[email-masked] -or- [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 20:37:20 GMT

>have a copy of OS/278 for his DecMate II.

Several paths to go here:

1)	Easy way:

Convert the WPS documents to ASCII TEXT files and lose all WPS "isms" in the
process such as soft returns, underlining, bolding, etc.  Then attempt to
put it back somehow at the PC end.  For example, PC WordPerfect 5.0 has a
feature that guesses at what a paragraph is - it's a series of sentences
delimited by double-spaced CR/LF/CR/LF.  Within this "horizontal zone" region
hard returns can optionally be replaced by soft returns.  (Warning: there is
a bug in WordPerfect 5.1 that makes the feature not work :-(.)

To turn it into text, use either OS/278 WPFLOP to make OS/278 text files, or
use (if APU available) WPSCONV to make CP/M text files or (if XPU available)
make CP/M or MS-DOS text files using CONVERT.EXE.  Each of the three systems
then has ways to get the file elsewhere.

OS/278 supports Kermit-12 to send the text to another machine.  CP/M and
MS-DOS can do the same.  Additionally, 22DISK can be run on a PC to recover 
the CP/M files and convert to MS-DOS files, and RX50 or RAINDOS or MULTIDRV
can be used on PC's with MS-DOS to directly access the MS-DOS RX50 diskettes
containing the text files, etc.

2)	Harder:

Start from the original WPS documents and attempt to get them through to
another format, such as WPS-80 or WPS-DOS.  Some of DEC's WPS-like systems
on other DEC machines may or may not like the WPS RX50 format, and/or may not
run on the DECmate.  (WPS-80 is non-DEC and there is a version for the
DECmate with APU and also for the Rainbow.  WPS-DOS is for PC's.)

Once on a PC is PC-WPS format (or in WPS-80 CP/M format moved with 22DISK
to a PC) you then need to use Software Bridge to convert the PC-based WPS
documents to something like WordPerfect.  (There is some other package besides
Software Bridge that is for WordPerfect only; I think it's called Perfect
Exchange, while Software Bridge is more generic and expensive.)  This should
get you where you want to be, since WordPerfect format is recognized by lots
of packages/conversion programs, etc.

3)	Hardest:

There is a package of hardware and software for PC's marketed by Shaftstall
that can do the job directly.  It is out of the budget for virtually everyone
and is only affordable by the large data conversion houses, etc.  They will
charge you by the character to convert your file, but this way will have the
least lossage.  However, it is likely prohibitely expensive.

BTW, I am available as a consultant for the middle solution :-).  In all 
probability, the first one will be deemed adequate.

cj (Have WPS, will travel) l

---

From: [email-masked] us048503 (Art Hurst)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 93 04:26:04 GMT

Ethan Dicks ([email-masked]) wrote:
: 
: I was approached for help this week by a user who has a DecMate II and
: about 100 RX50 floppies with years of his work on them.  He has decided 
: that the time has come to enter the MS-LOSS world and be compatible with
: everyone else at his office.  He likes the DecMates but he hates not
: being able to exchange data with any of his coworkers.  So, does anyone
: have any advice for how to accomplish this?
	
	I would recommed using Kermit to transmit them from one system
	to the other. By far the easiest method. You can ftp anon to
	watsun.cc.columbia.edu for Kermit sources and binaries. I'm not
	sure WPS files would translate into any other machine. You might
	have to convert to ASCII before sending to another machine, but
	there go the fancies! :-( .: 

--
Art Hurst                                         Email: [email-masked]
3M Company                                        Phone: (805)388-4170
Digital Storage Products Division                 FAX:   (805)388-4804
Camarillo CA 93012

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Apr 93 10:19:15 MDT

> have a copy of OS/278 for his DecMate II.

If the documents don't have too much wierd stuff (underlining, etc.; you know
what I mean), you can transfer them using the CX communications package built
into WPS to just about anything. It takes a bit of fiddling with the setup
of CX (it took us about a week or so to get it talking reliably to our VAX)
to get good transfers, but it will talk to just about anything.

We used to get files between a WPS DECmate and the PC by echoing them through
the VAX with CX. The routine was:

	$ CREATE filename.ext
	[tell WPS to send the file]
	^Z
	$

then go to another port and use KERMIT to suck them down to a PC.

It's been a long time, so the details are a bit fuzzy. I seem to recall that
the magic of the CX setup was figuring out how to get it to correctly 
recognize when the VAX had echoed a line it just sent; something about the
end-of-line sequence. Since then, the secretary that liked WPS left and I've
taken over the DECmate as my own person in-office CP/M and OS/278 playground.

Roger Ivie
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Ethan Dicks)
Date: 10 Apr 1993 21:30:19 -0400

>to get good transfers, but it will talk to just about anything.

If I don't have WPS on the VAX or the DECdx document exchange software (as
I mentioned in my original request for help), is there a way to use CX?

Thanks,
-ethan

---

From: [email-masked] (Ethan Dicks)
Date: 10 Apr 1993 21:35:09 -0400

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>about 100 RX50 floppies with years of his work on them.

>process [...]
>To turn it into text, use either OS/278 WPFLOP to make OS/278 text files

I don't have OS/278, as I said.  How can I get a copy?  How many RX50
flops does it take?

>DECmate with APU and also for the Rainbow.  WPS-DOS is for PC's.)

Until informed otherwise, as far as I know, the DECMateII in question is
bare bones - no hard disk, no APU, no XPU.

Where is WPS-DOS available?  I have never heard of it and would have no
idea where to order it from.

Thanks again for the help,
-ethan

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1993 14:41:29 GMT

>>>about 100 RX50 floppies with years of his work on them.

It would seem that what follows is based on the user not wanting to spend any
money whatsoever since I offered to act as a consultant, etc.  (Others exist
who could also help out, etc.)  Thus, the response is tailored to a total
do-it-yourself approach, even though this will perhaps be false economy, etc.

>I don't have OS/278, as I said.  How can I get a copy?  How many RX50

This path requires OS/278 which can be purchased from DECUS or it can be
acquired as a disk image using PC's.  There are various programs available
to accomplish this.  The currently most popular one is a former shareware
program called TELEDISK.  Unfortunately, the program has known bugs in it
and flakey disk handling.  The authors have withdrawn the shareware version
so the only way to get a current version is to pay a fairly steep ($150)
license fee.  (They claim abuse of shareware by some commercial operators
so they are taking a dead-head approach that all must suffer equally because
of the abuse of a few, etc. :-( )

To use TELEDISK, you have to have a PC with a good quality 1.2 Meg floppy disk
preferably a TEAC FD55GFR.  The procedure is to first format a floppy on the
PC using 22DISK or RAINDOS or the RT-11 program or TELEDISK itself using an
MS-DOS file of any arbitrary RX50 format disk archived to that file, etc., or
even the ex-Soviet Union software for RSX-11.  What all these programs do
is to format the floppy on the drive to be used later.  This is necessary
because RX50's tend to be out of alignment slightly, and a weakness of
TELEDISK is that it doesn't retry enough.  This in turn is because TELEDISK
is attempting to copy the disk with little regard to the actual format, thus
often it interprets the errors it encounters as merely aberations in the disk
format.  The copy won't be correct.  (Someone is working on a PD version of
a replacement program that is RX50-specific.  This will eliminate all of the
major hassles of TELEDISK.  The authors of TELEDISK won't care either way
because the main thrust of TELEDISK has to do with its many other features,
which are useless to RX50 people.)

The freshly formatted diskette now in RX50 low-level format (aligned as best
as possible to the drive needed later) now can be brought to a DECmate where
a copy of an OS/278 or other diskette is.  Using any available diskette
copying program, make a descendent copy of the diskette in question.  Then
bring the diskette back to the PC.  Using TELEDISK, the entire diskette can
be turned into an MS-DOS file.  While compression is available, it's best
not to use it.  Then the resultant MS-DOS file can be compressed separately
with an available program such as PKZIP.  The resultant file will be smaller
than using TELEDISK's compression option, which incidentally is implemented
in a way that runs quite poorly (real slow).  This binary file can then
be dealt with as any other binary file, such as uuencode and then mailed to
the user who then reverses the process and uses TELEDISK to create an RX50
copy ready to be run on the DECmate.  

OS/278 consists of three binary diskettes and also five source diskettes
(optional).  The release refers you to some obscure DEC documentation of
OS/78 Version 4 and only provides a modicum of documentation on the
differences between OS/278 V2 and OS/78 V4.  It's really geared towards
oldtimers already familiar with the syntax of OS/8, etc. or someone with
access to the older manuals.  (Although it's not really that hard since
OS/8 is the basis for RT-11, etc.)  Also, you have to slightly read between
the lines to properly install OS/278 on the hard disk beyond what you
obviously have to do with what's provided, etc. since it is provided in a
crude form.  (Again, no big deal for oldtimers, etc. :-))

Once OS/278 is in place, you need a copy of my Kermit-12 to transfer the
files, since all OS/278 can do is to convert the WPS documents into OS/278
ASCII text files with all of the WPS' "isms" removed (using WPFLOP).

Kermit-12 is available from watsun.cc.columbia.edu via anonymous ftp in the
/kermit/d area as the 30-odd files that match k12* or k12*.* (since they all
have the "." to form an extension, etc.).  The best place to put them in on
a PC that can be hooked to the DECmate using the DECmate's printer cable.

Within the Kermit-12 release there is a description of a direct download
procedure that assumes a local error-free connection (such as connecting a
serial port to the DECmate's printer port).  Again, an experienced -8
person can make the small changes suggested to customize the download to
the DECmate printer port (it's slightly incompatible with the PDP-8 equivalent
so there is a small amount of documentation about what to do to accomodate the
difference, etc.).  Also, the .BWR files have to be read to realize just what
exact commands must be used on the DECmate due to bugs in OS/278 specifically
that have been found when this sort of thing was actually attempted.  It turns
out that it can be done, but not in a way intuitively obvious to an -8 user!
Fortunately, some of the alternate and seemingly equivalent commands actually
do work, so reading the *entire* .bwr file will solve this problem.  We still
haven't determined exactly *why* these bugs are present, just confirmed that
they *are* present :-(.  (Were this OS/8 V3D, all of the obvious command forms
just work fine.  As the system has been worked over by various ever less
qualified individuals, bugs have crept in.  Part of the work of creating
OS/8 Version 5 will be to restore lost features :-)..)

So, after all of this is accomplished, the user will have OS/278 on his
DECmate, with the ability to create (using WPFLOP) descendants of his WPS
documents reduced down to hard-return ASCII text files, and then send these
files to any other system via KERMIT.  Presumably the connection would be
made to the PC required earlier.  Once the files are MS-DOS ASCII text files,
they can then be processed with WordPerfect 5.0 (not 5.1 - it has the TextIn
feature bug!) or some other PC WP package, etc.

>bare bones - no hard disk, no APU, no XPU.

You are placing an unfair burden on us, since the more options in the machine,
the more the "rules" change regarding what you are requesting.  Please make an
effort to find out!  OS/278 on hard disk is something quite different from
OS/278 on floppy.  The effort required for any of these methods is severely
increased if only a floppy system can be run :-(.  (However, albeit in "slow
motion", all of the described methods do work :-).)

>idea where to order it from.

It is not a DEC product, and it's not known if it directly likes WPS-8
RX50 diskettes.  (It is entirely conceivable that it merely supports DX
protocol, which would allow the documents to be transmitted to the PC
in DX protocol directly, presumably without loss, since allegedly WPS-DOS
internally supports most if not all of the WPS-isms, etc.)  Further, this
would mean that the user is then "married" to WPS-DOS, so all that has
happened is they are now using a different "orphan" system, etc.  It hasn't
been determined yet if Software Bridge "likes" WPS-DOS files, since it was
designed for DEC's ill-fated WPS+/PC.

Moreover, the cost of WPS-DOS and Software PC exceeds the reasonable cost
of a consulting fee towards this marginal project :-(.

>Thanks again for the help,

cj "Will even convert WPS documents for food :-)" l

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew C. Stoffel)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 02:09:29 GMT

[Sorry... I cut out all the attrib. lines.. coulnd't figure out who
wrote what...]
>>>2)	Harder:

I find this to be the easiest way...... (& yes, I have done it....)

>>>on other DEC machines may or may not like the WPS RX50 format,

DEC's ALL-IN-1 with the WPS-PLUS option can communicate with a DECmate
..... I've even written some scripts for it to make life much
easier..... just need to know what version of ALL-IN-1 you have
(apparently, the most recent version of ALL-IN-1 (3.0-1) can't
communicate with older versions of the DECMate software.....)...

>>idea where to order it from.
It WAS available from DEC for a while......
>RX50 diskettes.  (It is entirely conceivable that it merely supports DX

Actually.... speaking from personal experience..... earlier versions
(3.something-beta) could actually read DECmate RX50's.... I don't
think that capability is in the newer (4.+) versions.... & I
discourage any but the most desparate person from using this method.
The only format you can convert from WPS-DOS to is ASCII text....
while the method I mentioned above will let you convert it to any
format that you have available in ALL-IN-1 (I've been able to convert
from DECmate to Wordperfect 5.1 using the ALL-IN-1/Wordperfect
Integration product though KeyPak should do the same if you have it......

>cj "Will even convert WPS documents for food :-)" l

-AndyS-

-- 
|E-mail  --> un*x: [email-masked] |vms: [email-masked] |
|Disclaimer > Any "end-user" software that provides NO avenue for user |
|of the week> modification or programmability is NOT user friendly.    |

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 06:02:25 GMT

>I find this to be the easiest way...... (& yes, I have done it....)
Well, you have done *something* like it :-).

>It WAS available from DEC for a while......
But this is EBS's WPS-DOS, not to be confused with WPS-PLUS/PC.

>discourage any but the most desparate person from using this method.

Version of *what* are you talking about?  ALL-IN-I, WPS-PLUS/PC or WPS-DOS?

>The only format you can convert from WPS-DOS to is ASCII text....

Irrelevant as I described.  Software Bridge is designed to convert "WPS"
documents to WordPerfect format.  The problem is that we still don't quite
know what they mean by "WPS" format.  What *is* known is that they mean files
that already are part of an MS-DOS file structure, thus the only possible
candidates for this are files created by:

1)	WPS-PLUS (for the Rainbow) since the files are created as MS-DOS files
on the Rainbow, which can of course be moved to MS-DOS RX50 diskettes.  Using
either RX50DRVR, MULTIDRV, or RAINDOS, these diskettes can in turn be read on
a PC/MS-DOS system.

2)	WPS-PLUS/PC (for the PC) which is the most likely candidate.  Files
are created directly on PC devices.

3)	WPS-DOS which is the EBS product that makes PC/MS-DOS files directly
also.

The problem is that there are multiple "translations" of what constitutes
a WPS document's innards.  Apparently, DX protocol is an implied conversion
that is undone at the receiving site if the receiver happens to be a DECmate.
But, other implementations of WPS-like systems use alternate conversions,
some likely based more on the actual DX image protocol format than on the
underlying WPS format.  (An analogy would be where a system stores binary
files, but another system stores the same file in uuencode format, as
opposed to restoring the underlying information back into the original binary.
Thus, while equivalent in content, the files are hardly identical as stored on
their respective systems, etc.  In this way, some "DX" file formats tend to
exist.  WPS documents can be read as a stream of 8-bit bytes directly, and
that would be an acceptable translation off of the original WPS diskettes, 
but instead, these systems are storing one-off translations that use the
DX protocol designed for comm port transmission as the basis for the stored
data, etc.)  In any case, it has not yet been determined which "DX" or "WPS"
variant Software Bridge (and perhaps also Perfect Exchange, which could be
looking for something different from SB) is expecting to be the internal
format of the MS-DOS files you pass into it to be converted to MS-DOS files
whose innards are WordPerfect format, etc.

BTW, it is also possible to create additional fodder for this problem:

Using WPS-80, which has a version for either DECmate with APU/XPU or Rainbow,
and runs under CP/M, it is possible to convert WPS-8 documents from the
RX50 into WPS-80's format.  Again, this implies both the fact that the
resultant file is now in a CP/M directory format, and also that the innards
are in some format that is "equivalent" to WPS-8 document format, but in an
unknown state of possible translation, etc.

These files can be moved, using 22DISK, to a PC/MS-DOS machine, and could
also possibly be valid input to Software Bridge and/or Perfect Exchange, etc.

>Integration product though KeyPak should do the same if you have it......

Is the Wordperfect format as described there, identical to the Wordperfect
format needed on PC/MS-DOS?  Indeed, if one of these files is Kermit-ed to
a PC, is it *exactly* what PC WP wants?

cjl "Will format RX50 diskettes for food :-)" l

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew C. Stoffel)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 13:48:12 GMT

>Well, you have done *something* like it :-).
I'll admit to the something :-)....
>But this is EBS's WPS-DOS, not to be confused with WPS-PLUS/PC.

How do you tell what it is ?? (I just checked the version of WPS-PLUS
I had on floppy.... I was wrong.... I haev a copy of something called
WPS-PLUS/DOS T3.0

>Version of *what* are you talking about?  ALL-IN-I, WPS-PLUS/PC or WPS-DOS?
The PC version of WPS-PLUS/DOS I have in my hands... sorry..... I
don't think you can get ALL-IN-1 to read an RX50 EVEN if you were able
to run it on a workstation that had an RX50 attached....

Also, this version seems to be built around the same "model" as
WPS-PLUS for VMS & ALL-IN-1. All of the files are kept in a structure
called a "File cabinet" which keeps track of file names (usually
something very obnoxious starting with a Z.) and document titles....

>a PC, is it *exactly* what PC WP wants?

I didn't exactly kermit it over (The PC was on a Pathworks network so
I just copied it over.....) but yes.... the file that was converted to
Wordperfect from WPS-PLUS from the DECMate was in a format that was
readable by Wordperfect on a PC (I was even able to import it into
Ami-pro as a Wordperfect 5.1 document....)

What you have to realize though is that the conversion from DECMate
WPS-8 to WPS-PLUS 4.0 in ALL-IN-1 was done by software written by
Digital so they know what the formats are they are converting from/to.
and the WOrdperfect conversions were done by software supplied by
Wordperfect which can be bought from Digital.

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul Repacholi)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 16:03:17 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Charles Lasner) writes:

[trails and tribulations of file xfer flushed]

Is there a Kermit FOR WPS-8? Or alternatly, where can I FTP OS/278 from?

~Paul

Who quite like the relaxing speed of a DMII

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 03:15:17 GMT

>[trails and tribulations of file xfer flushed]
  ^^^^^^

Trails may be happy to you; trials may not be :-).

>Who quite like the relaxing speed of a DMII

WPS-8 is a closed system, so not so directly.  All of the other methods
mentioned have to do with some form of conversion.  I assume that using the
WPFLOP program on OS/278 is acceptable since it makes an ASCII text file out
of what the WPS document loaded with WPS-isms used to be, etc.

As to acquiring OS/278, this is a totally different problem/situation:

1)	Get it by buying a copy from DECUS.  The (almost accurate, incomplete)
sources are available as DM-111.  The running binary and hard disk install are
available as DM-101.  They refer you to a possibly available document set from
DEC, complete with part number.  It's the last known documentation for OS/78
Version 4.  The release notes are an attempt to augment that prior document set
with about 70% accuracy.

2)	The disks themselves are RX50's.  There are ways to get RX50's copied
using programs that run on PC's.  The requirements are that you have a PC-AT
or other compatible with a good quality 5.25" HD drive, such as a TEAC
FD55GFR.  Some drives have been observed to be too poor to be used, etc.
The relevant set of stuff currently available is:

a)	TELEDISK.  This program can be used to create an MS-DOS file that
contains all info needed for another copy of TELEDISK to recreate the original
disk.  There are several problems with TELEDISK:

i)	It is proprietary.  Formerly it was shareware, but the author is
griping that certain commercial BBS sysops are ripping him off by heavily
using it without registering it.  He also claims that he has helped some
end lusers over the phone with some minimal support that better lusers
wouldn't require.  He did this with the knowledge that they were not yet
registered users, instead of forcing them to register first, etc.  Thus,
he wants to punish all of his potential customer base over the wrong-doings
of a few individuals, etc.

There may be an old version of TELEDISK floating around the net that still
claims to be shareware.  This version is known to have bugs, although it is
possible that the bugs do not pertain to RX50 usage, just to attempts to
copy certain 1.44 Meg 3.5" disks in PC format or related, etc.  Newer versions
or the program certainly do still have some of these bugs, which the author
claims to have fixed (at least in part).  Apparently, he really ought to
work harder on his product since the problems are still being observed.

ii)	The program has a major design weakness: it assumes that anything
it finds is a valid interpretation of the actual disk format.  The program
is designed to find all sorts of "odd" variations on disk formats, and thus
"believes" just about anything it can read.  It is difficult to determine
just what an actual error is, but clearly the program fails to retry any
questionable reads, to determine if the read data is repeatable, etc.

Thus, to successfully use TELEDISK on any particular machine, it is
recommended that an RX50 diskette first be formatted on the drive which will
be used to read the data for the MS-DOS file, then the disk should be copied
on an RX50-based machine, such as a DECmate II, and then brought back to
the PC where TELEDISK will then be used.  At the other end, a good drive
on a PC-AT should be able to recover the disk data effectively.  If desired,
it can then be read and copied on the DECmate at that end, etc.  Since the
DECmate will complain if the disk is not a valid RX50 diskette, this should
be a good confidence check on the validity of the data.  (An aside: note that
WPS does not provide any disk copying facility; the menu items claiming this
are only able to create WPS-specific disks, they are not general-purpose
copying programs, etc.  However, the WPS hard disk install floppy includes
a diskette copying routine that is actually general-purpose, so a WPS user
can use this routine to copy an arbitrary RX50, such as an OS/278 diskette.)

b)	A replacement program is being written by someone that is RX50-only
and thus avoids most of the TELEDISK problems.  Since it knows already what
the disk format is, it can reread questionable sectors until a read error
clears.  Also, this program will be able to format RX50 disks.  (This is
not a unique idea.  Indeed, TELEDISK is formatting the disk as it copies
the data out of the MS-DOS file.  There are several other PC-based utilities
that deal with other data structures on RX50, and all of them can low-level
physically format RX50's.)  The program will likely include a few extensions
that are useful to OS/278 specifically, such as the ability to access the
directory of the disk should it be a valid OS/278 diskette.  In any case,
the handling of RX50 diskette will be quite generic for all other functions.
Most importantly, this program will be PD and likely available in source form.

c)	Of course you need all of the more "standard" stuff related to file
transfer, such as .BOO encoders/decoders or uuencoders/uudecoders to actually
get the binary MS-DOS files from the far end, etc.  I distribute PDP-8 ENCODE
and DECODE programs, but these aren't useful for this purpose because the only
known versions of utilities for the format only run on OS/278 you already
must have (catch-22).  It would be nice if someone wrote a PC utility that
used ENCODE format as an intermediary, and produced RX50 diskettes as the
OS/278 programs would, etc.  (Any takers?  Specs on the ENCODE format itself
are available; it includes 12-bit-oriented compression, etc.)

3)	Certain of our readers may be able to send you copied of the relevant
diskettes.  Once you have the basics (OS/278, Kermit-12, DECODE) you can
acquire copies of all of the other diskettes for OS/278, etc.  (Note, due to
current limitations of OS/278, ENCODE/DECODE can only transmit either OS/278
files or images of OS/278 diskettes, *not* other RX50 formats such as
CP/M, MS-DOS, WPS.  I believe that COS-310 diskettes can be accomodated,
as well as certain install disks for some of the DECmate systems, which are
actually OS/278 systems stripped down, etc., but the "slushware" tracks will
not be copied by this method, etc.  Thus, it's also necessary to have a copy
of the System Test Diskette (Version 4.5 is the latest) to complete the
diskette copying process currently by this method.  I am working on some
convoluted upgrades to OS/278 that will get around this problem, which is
actually a limitation of OS/278 handlers, not the O/S in general or any aspect
of ENCODE/DECODE, etc.  ENCODE is designed to deal with OS/8 data, either
whole disk images or individual files.  The definition of a whole disk image
is controlled entirely by the OS/8 handlers used, not the program.  Current
OS/278 handlers can only address the non-slushware tracks, and only in current
OS/278 format.  Replacement handlers can obviate this problem, etc.)

There are a few PDP-8 oriented sites now.  They should be reachable by
anonymous ftp, etc.  Copies of OS/278 disk images will be placed there in
at least TELEDISK format for the present, and later in the format of the
PD program for PC's now currently being developed, etc.  (PDP-8 ENCODE format
will also be used for certain additional diskettes.)

(As an aside, OS/278 with ENBOO and DEBOO, which are available as part of
the Kermit-12 package, can interchange binary files with MS-DOS systems and
other systems that can run the MSBPCT and MSBMKB programs.  This has so far
been used to exchange TECO macros on these systems, since TECO macro files
aren't quite "ASCII" to certain systems, and TECO exists on both the PDP-8
and MS-DOS among other systems, etc.  While not useful for acquiring an
initial copy of OS/278, this represents another alternative way to acquire
PDP-8/DECmate-relevant files using formats more "native" to other systems.)

cjl

---

From: [email-masked] (Ethan Dicks)
Date: 15 Apr 1993 02:21:15 -0400

>do-it-yourself approach, even though this will perhaps be false economy, etc.

False economy or not, Univerity users are unwilling to spend money on
just about anything.  I was approached in the first place (even though I
do not work for Ohio State) because no one who does work here knows what
a DecMate is, let alone knows how to extract data from it.  

BTW, the destination of the data is Microsoft WORD for Macintosh.

>program called TELEDISK.
>preferably a TEAC FD55GFR.

I can remove the FD55GFR from my uVAX 2000 (RX33 clone)...

>                                  Using TELEDISK, the entire diskette can
>be turned into an MS-DOS file.

Do copies of OS/278 exist as TELEDISK archives?

>(optional).

I have a .tar.Z archive of OS/287 source.  Is this the same stuff as the
5 diskettes?

>documents reduced down to hard-return ASCII text files...

Where is WPFLOP available?  OS/278?  watsun.cc.columbia.edu?  DECUS?

>OS/278 on floppy. 

Unfair or not, what pecentage of DecMates were sold with hard drives?  I
find out that the DecMate in question is as vanilla as the day it was
made: no extra options of any kind.  The user is checking for the existence
of self-test or utility diskettes.

I will have a DecMate on loan for a while.  As a result, I myself wouldn't
mind having a copy of OS/278 around.  Also, the HamFest in Dayton, OH is
coming up in about a week and I might be able to pick up a DecMate of my
own there for ($10 < x < $50), then I really would need OS/278.

Thanks,
-ethan

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew C. Stoffel)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 14:02:31 GMT

>Unfair or not, what pecentage of DecMates were sold with hard drives?  I

Based on marketing info or empiricle evidence ? I have a hard drive on
the DECMate III+ in my office & one on the II I have at home and 70%
of the ones still in use around here (15 or so) have hard drives....

>own there for ($10 < x < $50), then I really would need OS/278.

Way too much for a DECmate... the II I have at home cost me $8 US
dollars while I was able to pick up one with a dead monitor (for
parts) for free...

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:38:09 GMT

>a DecMate is, let alone knows how to extract data from it.  

So, then they have to do more legwork.  It's just that even at "college student
rates" it may still be false economy :-).  In any case, the path is viable,
although arduous.

>BTW, the destination of the data is Microsoft WORD for Macintosh.

A minor bump in the road.  Read on for the whole path.

>I can remove the FD55GFR from my uVAX 2000 (RX33 clone)...

RX33 clone?  DEC uses real TEAC FD55GFR/GFV drives, not clones.  A good
choice indeed.  Note: there is a one-jumper change required sometimes; perhaps
two jumpers:

All PC's select on DS1  (note DS is origin zero; there have been sloppy
discussions that would say this is select jumper "#2", but the point is
that they are labeled DS0-DS3.)

The TEAC drives have a semi-unique feature in that the speed they run at
can be defaulted to either 360 RPM or 300 RPM, and additionally, the default
can be overridden by a suitable controller.  DECmate III+ usage demands 300 RPM
and PC's demand 360 RPM.  Neither attempt to change the speed, so the drive
has to be configured so that the no-connection to pin 2 default is appropriate
to the system.  (Compaticard controllers *do* adjust the speed this way!)

A question about the RX33:  Can anyone confirm/deny whether RX33 *always* has
the locking option?  Everyone I have ever seen (all 4 of them) has the optional
TEAC locking feature where the handle cannot be turned unless the media is
present, and turning the handle unlocks the drive, but also ejects the media
using some spring, etc.  This is a standard option of TEAC, but mostly obscure
outside of the DEC version.  (BTW, someone else claims to have seen an 
alternate TEAC option using a release button like some earlier designs, which
lacked the locking function.  Anyone ever seen that one either?)

>Do copies of OS/278 exist as TELEDISK archives?

There are two PDP-8 archives (at least :-)) I am currently semi-maintaining
one of them.  (I am not part of the group that actually maintains the machine,
just the PDP-8 archive itself.  It's up to them to provide the overall
anonymous ftp access, but it's definitely intended.)

The ultimate goal is to not use TELEDISK images because of the problems with
TELEDISK's author, and the fact that the thing is commercial, not shareware
currently, due to the author's (perhaps somewhat misguided) problems with
some commercial operators, etc.  (Note that RX50 handling is actually a
frill of what TELEDISK does.  Most of the actual TELEDISK problems revolve
around problems with 1.44 MByte standard or semi-standard PC diskettes.  It
appears that the shareware version is fine for RX50 usage, but that version is
no longer being supported, etc.  However, there are copies floating around the
net.  Moreover, no one can stop users from copying clearly marked shareware
merely because it is no longer supported by the original author who now
sells an undesirable high-ticket commercial version differing from the
old shareware version merely in bug fixes, etc.

There is a wrinkle about TELEDISK that should be noted:  Someone observed in
the last shareware version that 1.44 Meg disk images with the compression
enabled generates corrupted useless image files, i.e., the program fails
miserably but only sometimes, presumably in a data-dependent way.  The next
version of TELEDISK, which is the first of the "commercial" ones seems to
be virtually the same program, but has a companion utility that can check
to see if an image file actually is valid without having to go through the
motions to see if it's actually writing a descendent disk without error, etc.
The author seems to have released this verification utility as shareware to
at least contain this problem, so it's perfectly OK to have the last
unsupported shareware version, and also the TDCHECK program, as long as you
acquire it in the intended way.

I can personally report that that version that is one level into being 
commercial does have the bug, and also can't properly handle certain 3.5"
formats at all.  (Writing FDFORMAT-created diskettes with 1.72 MBytes
capacity, TELEDISK creates a disk in the proper format, but every sector
has the wrong data in it.  Apparently, the bug has to do with losing track of
the correct track/sector where to write the data to, etc.  Also, the direct
copy function seems to flunk often, regardless of disk type/format, etc.

The function we need is RX50 support without compression.  Compression
utilities such as PKZIP are more suited to the task.  There doesn't seem
to be any problems with the function of RX50 -> uncompressed file and
uncompressed file -> RX50 regardless of version.  The TDCHECK program can
confirm that the data file is valid, etc.  (The direct copy of RX50 is best
done on another machine; it may not work in TELEDISK anyway.)

>I have a .tar.Z archive of OS/287 source.  Is this the same stuff as the

By definition not quite.  I don't think there is anything important on 
the "slushware" portion of these five diskettes, and I don't believe there's
a system on any of them either.  Thus, it's a collection of files.  However,
OS/278 files on the three binary diskettes are *not* translateable; the
disks must be in image format (the second disk is files-only; the first
and third are systems, and the third has a kludged 8-bit file that OS/278
is incapable of moving).

In any case, the sources don't match the binaries exactly, and without a
running system, you can't recreate it anyway.

>Where is WPFLOP available?  OS/278?  watsun.cc.columbia.edu?  DECUS?

WPFLOP is standard part of OS/278 in the release.  The only documentation
is the HELP WPFLOP command in OS/278 itself as well.

>of self-test or utility diskettes.

The utility diskettes are as available as OS/278 disks, and also have to
be TELEDISK'ed for the present.  

A lot of machines did have options.  Generally you find APU boards where
hard disks are all ready present, though there are no rules of any option
interdependency, etc.  (Just can't have the RX78 or extra RX50 options with
a hard disk present.)

In any case, the more options, the more needed diskettes.

>own there for ($10 < x < $50), then I really would need OS/278.

Good luck.  The basic machine can do some things; the more options the better,
especially the hard disk.

cjl

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 19 Apr 93 16:06:53 MDT

> lacked the locking function.  Anyone ever seen that one either?)

Every one that I have seen also has this feature. DEC also seems to like to
omit the eject spring; none of the drives that I have here will kick the 
disk out.

> a system on any of them either.

There is no system on the five diskettes, so there should be nothing in the
slushware area (what's the point of putting slushware on non-bootable disks?).

> running system, you can't recreate it anyway.

Ya gotta love DEC. On the other hand, at least we got _something_ out of
them...

Roger Ivie
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 18:03:56 GMT

>omit the eject spring; none of the drives that I have here will kick the 

Yes, each of these is an option, and is why there is a sub-option to the
TEAC model number, such as 149-U.  The locking mechanism demands an alternate
bezel, and the DM III+ front panel accomodates this larger bezel cutout.  You
can use the standard disk, but then it looks a little funny as to why the
strange shaped cutout.

BTW, the DM III+ requires the use of the drive skids with the 8 holes so
that you can move the drives slightly to the rear of the case.  That way
the "PLUS" nameplate bezel can go over the TEAC drive front.  The Seagate
drive is used without a front as often happens in PC's as well.  I put together
a "quick change" version of a III+ from a former III:

You start with a stock III, and then throw away the motherboard, keeping the
little buss board.  You replace it with a two-layer DM III+ motherboard and
hard disk daughterboard.  You have to ensure there is insulation on the
metalwork above the boards to prevent shorts.  The real III+ chassis has a
piece of that same insulation that is found on the inside surface of the
chassis top cover glued on it.

The III+ needs a dual power connector, so you just add a Y-cable to the
single connector.  (Why does DEC bother with all of these power-supply 
variants:

1)	78W 110 volts one connector

2)	78W 220 volts one connector

3)	150W 110 volts one connector

4)	150W 220 volts one connector

5)	160W 110 volts two connectors

6)	160W 220 volts two connectors

Can't they get it right?  The DM II didn't have any of this grief!)

Anyway, a Y-cable solves most of the problem :-).

Then you eliminate the RX50 and cable.  You replace it with the metalwork that
stacks the TEAC drive atop the Seagate hard disk.  The 8-hole skid is placed
on the bottom of the Seagate drive.  Actually, the Y-cable is more convenient
than the original to pull out the power plugs from, and additionally, you
get more cable length than the two plugs in the stock DM III+ where all
cables are short, including the floppy and hard disk cables.

If you put on a Seagate bezel on the drive and use the 4-hole skid pattern
you can have a machine that was appearing this way, but looks fine since
this is PC-normal, or you can use the rear holes in the 8-hole skid, and
then attach the "PLUS" plate over the TEAC bezel on top, and over nothing
on the bottom (where the HD is) and achieve a case that is identical to
the original III+.  I was even given the III+ stick-on label, so you can't
even tell it from the original :-).

>slushware area (what's the point of putting slushware on non-bootable disks?).

Besides, OS/278 uses obsolete slushware.  As is always the case, just upgrade
to newer slushware, such as is found on newer versions of MM, test diskette,
or WPS.  This is a requirement to boot these disks to a DM III or III+
anyway.

>Ya gotta love DEC. On the other hand, at least we got _something_ out of

Yes, but not enough :-(.  I have already confirmed an interesting difference
between the system handler source and binary for the hard disk:

The binary depends on the fact that the device is already mounted.  This
is the case if OS/278 is the startup volume or if Master Menu loads it.  The
handler is designed to have once-only code within it to ensure that sacred
named volumes are being attempted to be mounted.  After successful mounting,
the handler self-modifies so subsequent calls don't attempt the mount, etc.
There is a lot of overhead in the handler to deal with this, etc.  Yet,
the running copy has the status flags patched so that this mount operation
never occurs.  (A good thing, since the sacred names of the volumes that
apply to RD50: and RD51: are obsolete names we never use, certainly not
anything like OS278SYS or whatever that default installation volume is
named.)

Thus, the sources are for the version before they patched out this defective
conceptual feature.  To access RD51, you have to first mount it with a
MOUNT command, or have Master Menu do it for you before loading OS/278.  This
is far preferable to sacred fixed names because it allows you to change the
mount settings.  But the sources are still wrong, and worse, the handler
design suffers from having to support an unnecessary tradeoff.  A possible
issue:

There is a "penalty" within OS/8 for two-page system handlers (and also
two-page non-system handlers) in that certain programs have to deal with
the two-page kludge (such as BASIC and FORTRAN 4, etc.)  This also means that
programs can never quite be sure as to the disposition of X7600-X7777 where
X is 2 or 3 and up to 7, since under some circumstances, the handler code
will be moved there, etc.  Thus, the "clean" environment of 8K isn't used.
It is conceivable that by downsizing the functionality of this handler, it
could be made to fit in one page without the unneeded mounting code, etc.

cjl