Subject: Re: FOCAL

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:50:04 GMT

[email-masked] (Crystobal J. Junta):

> So many people actually remember it! :-) Yay!!!

> 2. For old times' sake, would people like a comp.lang.focal newsgroup?

Given the tight historic link between FOCAL and the DEC PDP-8, why not
just discuss FOCAL in alt.sys.pdp8; that group has plenty of spare
bandwidth, and FOCAL fits right in.

                                Doug Jones
                                [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: 19 Oct 1993 05:33:37 GMT

>bandwidth, and FOCAL fits right in.

That suits me fine!  FOCAL is one of those topics that will get discussed
in conjunction with all older DEC machines.  The original PDP-8 version
spawned severall others, including some for other DEC machines under our
purview, etc.

Incidentally, FOCAL's source code carries an undeserved repuation for being
a piece of well-written PDP-8 code; it isn't really!  However, the following
*is* true about it:

1)	It has the handicap of having to be compatible with the PDP-5 and
PDP-8/s.  Thus several PDP-8 and up techniques can't be used.

2)	It was cross-developed on the TOPS-10 system to be assembled with PAL10
and listed on a line-printer during an era when PDP-8's generally had only
an ASR-33 terminal and no LPT:!  The documentation level can merely be
considered as more than minimal, and certainly less than more recent work
where an LPT: was available, etc.

3)	Some of the coding techniques are examples of how *not* to use
auto-index registers, since when used as in FOCAL, they are more trouble than
they are worth!  (Revisions of FOCAL exist which eliminate the auto-index
usage producing small faster code!)

4)	While FOCAL can run in 4K, it can be made quite a bit smaller than it
is in the original paper-tape version.  The P?S/8 version fits FOCAL including
a file system interface to P?S/8 in 4K!  It is possible under P?S/8 to
create FOCAL source files that are submitted as a batch to P?S/8 FOCAL
including any relevant data files, etc.  Additionally, FOCAL is often the
site of assembly-language patches to customize it for specific applications
and is highly documented in this regard.  The P?S/8 version is actually
highly compliant with the documentation in spite of the changes, etc., and
P?S/8 FOCAL includes a binary patch loader to allow and encourage this form
of customization, etc. (Binary patches and source files can both be passed to
P?S/8 FOCAL, etc.)  This is one language where if you don't like the lack of
a feature, just write it in!

FOCAL was once at the heart of a "great debate" within DEC.  Various people
went to bat in the FOCAL VS BASIC issues, etc.  In any case, we have both
FOCAL and BASIC in various forms; use whichever one is the most appropriate
(or FORTRAN or PASCAL or whatever you want!)

cjl (self-confessed occasional user of FOCAL)

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From: [email-masked] (gordon hlavenka)
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 01:59:33 GMT

[email-masked] (Crystobal J. Junta):
>
>For old times' sake, would people like a comp.lang.focal newsgroup?

01.00 C RESPONSE POSTING
01.01 T "Hooray!!!",!
01.02 F X=1,10; D 2
01.03 T "Again?";A A
01.04 I (A-0Y)01.05,01.01,01.05
01.05 I (A-0N)01.03,01.06,01.03
01.06 Q

02.00 C RING TTY BELL
02.01 T "^G"

(or, for systems with 4 users and only 4K of core)
1.1 T "Hooray!!!",!;F X=1,10;T "^G"

(and yes, I know the "For" is superfluous...)

My apologies for posting source to a discussion group...:-)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Gordon S. Hlavenka           [email-masked]
Proud father of Daniel Scott     born August 9, 1993

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From: [email-masked] (Kip Crosby)
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 15:39:48 GMT

>>For old times' sake, would people like a comp.lang.focal newsgroup?

  Is this an RFD?         :-)

__________________________________________
Kip Crosby                [email-masked]   
Computer History Association of California 
     "History is what you make it...."