Subject: Re: Group for old computers (was: RFD: alt.sys.obsolete (Was: Re: Proposal for PDP-10 group))

From: [email-masked] (Magnus Olsson)
Date: 16 Aug 1994 11:24:57 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Timothy D. Shoppa x4256 <[email-masked]> wrote:
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Magnus Olsson) writes...

[about vmsnet.pdp11]

>Yes, there exists a good amount of opposition to the vmsnet hierarchy
>at many sites.  

IMHO the vmsnet hierarchy may have made sense when it was created (since
Usnete used to be much more Unix-dominated than it is today) but I have 
some difficulty understanding the need for a top-level hierarchy for
a specific operating system.(I'm of course referring to the hierarchy as
such, *not* to the discussions going on which I'm sure make very much
sense indeed). Let's at least be grateful there's not a special
msdos-net hierarchy... :-)

>Still, it is more widely distributed than alt.sys.pdp11,
>and carries substantially more traffic.
[...]

>I am all for the creation of newsgroups that will broaden the
>access of readres to older-hardware-related issues.  However, alt.*
>newsgroups that are viewed as duplicates of already well-established
>groups often have substantially poorer distribution than
>the established groups; this is reflected in the stats above.

I agree with you, and can only lament the fact that vmsnet isn't considered
"interesting", "politically correct" or whatever by many sysadmins :-(.

>I strongly the believe the best route to take would be creation
>of a comp.sys.dec.pdp (or similarly-named) newsgroup, which would
>cover all older DEC hardware.

I don't really think so. A PDP-8 doesn't have very much in common with
a DEC-20. IMHO it's important for psychological reasons to 
have separate groups for machines that are so different - if nothing else,
otherwise ther might be a feeling that a hypothetical comp.sys.pdp would
be "taken over" by, say, PDP-11 discussion, and that PDP-10 discussion
wouldn't be appropriate (even though it would be expressly within charter).

Witness the situation on alt.sys.pdp8: It has repeatedly been stated
that discussion of _all_ PDP systems is welcome there, yet the
discussion is exclusively about 8's. Newcomers see that, and of course
they refrain from asking about 10's. 

I do think that there's sufficient traffic and interest both for
comp.sys.pdp11 and comp.sys.pdp8. If anybody wants to go through the
hassle of going through the RFD/CFV/vote proecdure for them I'd be
happy, but I'm not going to do it myself (not right now, anyway). As
for comp.sys.pdp10, well, I don't know. Let's try alt.sys.pdp10 first,
shall we, and se how much interest it generates. 

>>2) A feeling that vmsnet isn't the right place for a pdp11 group
>>   (after all, you can't run VMS on a PDP-11).
>
>Not exactly true.  Early versions of VMS were tested on a 11/70 emulating
>the VAX instruction set.  A friend of mine who was a DEC field service
>engineer at the time is promising to deliver more details of this setup.

I heard it the other way round: that VMS 1.0 was written in PDP-11 code,
and that it ran using the VAX 11's compatibility mode. Only for version 2.0
did they move up to native 32-bit code. (Of course, it was only the OS
itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code
for applications).

              Magnus Olsson                | \e+      /_
 yacc - the Computer Society at LU and LTH |  \  Z   / q
              Lund, Sweden                 |   >----<           
  [email-masked] / [email-masked]    |  /      \===== g
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---

From: [email-masked] (Huw Davies)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 02:58:14 GMT

>itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code

My understanding was that some/most? of the development of VAX/VMS was done
on pair of 11/70s with the second 11/70 doing most of the VAX code
emultation.

V1 of VMS was native - most applications software was emulated however.

I'm off to DECUS Australia and I'll find out some more about the original
VMS development - one of the original VAX architects will be there - perhaps
he'll answer a few questions.....

-- 
  Huw Davies           | [email-masked]
  Computing Services   | Phone: +61 3 479 1500   Fax: +61 3 479 1999
  La Trobe University  | I own an Alfa to keep me poor in a monetary
  Melbourne Australia  | sense, but rich in so many other ways

---

From: [email-masked] (Mike McCrohan)
Date: 18 Aug 1994 10:14:52 +0100

> itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code

I think that the truth is somewhere between the two comments. VMS was
designed/written by the same man (Dave Cutler) that wrote much of
RSX-11/mumble. Many of the RSX utilities were used on VMS V1.n
initially, running in compatability mode, but over time got re-written
in native mode. It was about VMS V3.0 that all of VMS ran in native
mode, finally. [Thoughts of deja vu wrt Alpha. Vax ported from the
11-base via HW compatability; Alpha is porting from VAX but with SW
emulators. The speed of the successful migration of OS, tools, etc to
alpha is all the more impressive when you look back at how long it took
for VMS to go completely native and not be merely an RSX extension.]

Dave C is, of course, the man heading up the Windows-NT effort. Ever
wonder how come NT sounds so much like a VMS rewrite?

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Leslie)
Date: 18 Aug 1994 09:51:47 GMT

Mike McCrohan ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Magnus Olsson) wrote:
: > In article <[email-masked]>,
: > Timothy D. Shoppa x4256 <[email-masked]> wrote:
: > >In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Magnus Olsson) writes...

: Dave C is, of course, the man heading up the Windows-NT effort. Ever
: wonder how come NT sounds so much like a VMS rewrite?

And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the
acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ?  This was done 
for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which
is "IBM" transposed down by one letter.

--Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie
  Staff Engineer
  Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation    (my opinions are my own)
  P.O. Box 721648                       9896 Bissonnet
  Houston, Texas 77272                  Houston, Texas, 77036
  713/272-5065                          713/272-5200 (fax)
  [email-masked]
  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael J. Edelman)
Date: 18 Aug 1994 12:04:48 GMT

In article [email-masked],  [email-masked] (Jerry Leslie) writes:
..
>is "IBM" transposed down by one letter.
 
Both Kubrick and Clark claim this was just a lucky coincidence, and that the name
HAL was chosen indepedantly of such considerations.

--mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Williams Kastner Gibbs)
Date: 19 Aug 1994 04:48:31 GMT

Jerry Leslie ([email-masked]) wrote:

: And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the
: acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ?  This was done 
: for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which
: is "IBM" transposed down by one letter.

Arthur C. Clarke has debunked the IBM/HAL myth. He claims that if he'd
though of that angle, he would have changed the name, wanting nothing to
do with IBM. HAL stands for Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

That doesn't mean, of course, that someone at Mickeysoft doesn't believe
that's true, and did indeed try the rot-1 transpostion of VMS...

Lee

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter da Silva)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 12:44:50 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
> that's true, and did indeed try the rot-1 transpostion of VMS...

Dave Cutler's response to a question about the VMS/WNT naming connection was
along the lines of "it took you THIS long to notice?"...
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Network Management Technology Incorporated                 'U`
1601 Industrial Blvd.     Sugar Land, TX  77478  USA
+1 713 274 5180                       "Hast Du heute schon Deinen Wolf umarmt?"

---

From: [email-masked] (Shannon Hendrix)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 14:12:01 GMT

That is NOT the reason for the name HAL.  This is just a stupid rumor
that has been thoroughly dismissed by Arthur C. Clarke.

: --Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie
:   Staff Engineer
:   Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation    (my opinions are my own)
:   P.O. Box 721648                       9896 Bissonnet
:   Houston, Texas 77272                  Houston, Texas, 77036
:   713/272-5065                          713/272-5200 (fax)
:   [email-masked]
:   [email-masked]
-- 
csh
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[email-masked] (UUCP)     | Amd486/40 Linux system
[email-masked] (Internet)          | Christopher Newport University

---

From: [email-masked] (Ian Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 02:58:21 GMT

>:   [email-masked]

Heuristic ALgorithmic
H +       AL = HAL (but the IBM rumour sounds better)
-- 
Ian, barely speaking even for himsel  | "Riding a Harley Hog with Uma |     /
[email-masked]               | Thurman: That's heaven"       |
"the guy who tries to be funny, but   | -K. D. Lang-                  |  
everybody laughs at."
-- 
+============+==================+==========================+================
Ian, barely speaking even for himself | "Riding a Harley Hog with Uma      /
[email-masked]               | Thurman: That's heaven" ........../
"the guy who tries to be funny, but   | -K. D. Lang-           /

---

From: [email-masked] (Mr Andrew John Kale)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:42:47 GMT

>is "IBM" transposed down by one letter.

In his defence, it must be noted that Arthur C. Clarke has always denied all 
knowledge of this at the time; he puts it down to serendipity. Wouldn't
you - after all, particularly in this day and age, who wants to admit that
they're one step behind Big Blue?

                                Cheers
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						              [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Super-User)
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 12:05:34 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Mr Andrew John Kale) writes:

   In his defence, it must be noted that Arthur C. Clarke has always denied all 
   knowledge of this at the time; he puts it down to serendipity.
                                                     -----------

That's presumably why he lives in Sri Lanka -- a ready-made excuse.
  
--
 Kit Powell
  [email-masked] +44 117 9287864 (fax +44 117 9291576)
  Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, GB