Subject: Re: DECmate diskettes (ARRGGG!!)

From: [email-masked] (Charles Lasner)
Date: 11 Jan 1995 14:36:06 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
David Huddleson <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I hate when this happens...
>
>Out of someone's deep deep archives in the company, I have been presented
>with a box of RX50 diskettes once used on a DECmate (I have books for
>DECmate II as well as DECmate III, if it matters!!).
>
>We "unloaded" the last of our DECmates probably 2 years ago, so what
>to do??

There are many different ways to get partial recovery of the data.  How 
much you want to pay for how much of it is a factor.

>
>We still have a Rainbow or two around, but trying to read the diskettes 
>in the Rainbow failed (with both MS-DOS and CP/M). I don't know if
>the Rainbow actually can read the DECmate disks anyway, but I tried!

Wrong path to the wrong place.

>
>Can anyone suggest if or how I might be able to see what's on these diskettes,
>because of course the user feels there may be important info on the old
>diskettes (yeah!)
>
>Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>David Huddleson		Gandalf Technologies Inc., Nepean, Ontario
>			[email-masked]

First of all, the disks clearly are *NOT* CP/M disks because all Rainbow 
and DECmate CP/M disks are in the same format.  MS-DOS disks for the 
DECmate are obscure and also compatible with Rainbow MS-DOS thus the same 
proof applies that they aren't MS-DOS RX50 disks either.

By and large WPS was what people used on DECmates.  Many of our readers 
would think otherwise, but I am talking about the original sold purpose 
of the hardware, not our collective thoughts on doing it differently, etc.

On the Rainbow itself there is a DEC package called WPS+.  Allegedly it 
can convert WPS/DM disks into its format, which are at the least files 
that live in the Rainbow (and thus DECmate!) MS-DOS file structure with 
innards of a presumably similar nature.  Some people have attempted to 
run parts of WPS+ on the DECmate MS-DOS only to find that the conversion 
part doesn't work there :-(.

On the DECmate there are three ways to get WPS files to somewhere else 
using DEC-suppled utilities, and at least one additional from a non-DEC 
source.

1)	Use DECmate MS-DOS CONVERT to move files between MS-DOS, CP/M-80 
and WPS format.

2)	Use DECmate CP/M-80 WPSCONV to move files between CP/M-80 and WPS format.

3)	Use DECmate OS/278 WPFLOP to move files between OS/278 and WPS format.

The first two can give document directory listings directly.  The third 
can indirectly because in WPS, document #1 *IS* the directory of all of 
the other documents.  All three methods suffer from the fact that the 
converted result is ASCII text sans WP-isms, etc.

The non-DEC method is to run WPS80 from EBS.  There is a version of it 
for both the Rainbow and DECmate w/CPM-80.  The result is converted files 
that live in a CP/M file structure whose innards are presumably similar 
to the original WPS innards.  Such CP/M diskettes can then be read 
wherever RX50 CP/M diskettes can be so read (22DISK on PC's, DECmate 
CP/M-80, Rainbow CP/M-86/80, etc.) but only WPS80 knows what to do with 
the file innards, etc.

Moving to a PC may or may not help.  While 22DISK can certainly move 
files from CP/M-80 RX50 per se, this does not help to deal with the 
actual file contents taken from any of the intermediary systems (such as 
WPS80).  DEC sold a package called WPS+PC that presumably can convert 
WPS+ (Rainbow) files.  The source are the WPS+ innards RX50 MS-DOS and 
the destination is WPS+PC MS-DOS PC files.  In any case you would have to 
deal with the PC-DOS files in WPS+PC innards format to move them to 
somewhere else.

An available somewhere else is to use Software Bridge for Windows.  As a 
source it likes so-called "DX" files (what WPS+PC normally creates) and 
as destination it likes things like WordPerfect, etc.

(Also I believe the same (different?) vendor sells a lesser product that
can only read a few different input formats, while the lone output format
is WordPerfect. The word "Perfect" is part of this product's name?  In 
any case, the so-called "DX" format is the relevant input format, etc.)

There also may be another way to get the files in that direction: use EBS'
WPS-DOS, which reportedly can convert the original WPS-DM disks directly. 
Presumably, WPS-DOS is also "DX" compatible, and seems to be a competing
compatible product with DEC's WPS+PC, but better in certain ways. 
(Questions: Does WPS-DOS and WPS+PC freely like each other's primary
format directly, or do you need some additional form of file import/export
conversion between them?  Even if so, it would still make DX files so
Software Bridge could move them to WordPerfect, etc. Does WPS-DOS like
WPS+ files? Does WPS-DOS like WPS80 files? Does WPS+PC and/or WPS-DOS
write any of the older formats (WPS/DM, WPS+, WPS80/CP/M) or just read
them?)

Finally, there is a sure-fire way to do it.  For likely far more money 
than its worth, there exists an "anything-to-anything" convertor 
subsystem for PC's from Shaftstall.  This consists of a hardware and 
software kit that adds various forms of flopy support to a PC including 
hard-sectored floppies and 8" drives, etc.  The programs themselves are 
written in the hard-sectored format so forget about copying them!  And of 
course it can't run without the supplied hardware, etc.

I have seen the Shaftstall helpout Video, and it uses as the primary 
example the conversion of WPS/DM documents directly to Wordperfect in one 
step.

If the person involved has a spare $15,000 to devote to this project, 
then it's real easy to get done :-).  Additionally, there are companies 
in the conversion business that charge similar rates to use their 
Shaftstall machines.  (Apparently they want about 1% of the cost of the 
hardware per diskette :-(.)

Lastly, all WPS-type systems support communications in "DX" format (not 
to be confused with that notion of what the file format for WPs+PC is 
called!) which means in theory that the files could be sent from where 
they are already loaded to another site with a different WPS-type system, 
etc.  Over the years, there have been various -11, -10/20, VAX, etc. 
systems that are compatible with this, as well as virtually all of the 
aforementioned, etc.  (However, this does not necessarily represent 
forward progress in the conversion process!  Just moving the problem 
around a little :-).)

OR of course you could scan the printouts (if available) and then have it 
in yet another system, etc. :-).

cjl