Subject: Blacksmithing again

From: "D. M. Dickie" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 07:42 PST

To all:

The discussion on "what is blacksmithing" has been great, and I have enjoyed
tremendously all the various thoughts and ideas expressed.  A lot of us seem
to be on the same wavelength, and some of us aren't.  That's ok, and it
means things are the way they should be.  We wouldn't all want to produce
the same work either.  The main thing is that we can present our differing
opinions in a civilized and polite manner, and that we can accept and
tolerate one-another's differing approaches and still be "brothers in iron".

As I have stated in the past, I come from the traditional camp.  I try to do
things without the use of strictly modern tooling.  I do however, use modern
tools in some areas, and though perhaps it's my way of justifying my
position, I use only those modern tools that have a historical precedent.
For instance, I use a drill press.  I don't use a torch.  Why?  Because
drilling as a technology goes back a long way into the history of
blacksmithing.  Though my drill press is electric, and uses modern twist
drills, various types of drilling technology have been around for a long
time, so I am using the current version.  The same applies to my 25# Little
Giant.  Power hammers in various configurations have also been around for
centuries.  Most were not rotary hammers powered by electricity, but there
were water/people and maybe animal powered hammers long ago - I use the
modern version.  I can't find the historical connection for torches or
plasma cutters, or hydraulics, so I avoid them.  I use a shop saw to cut
material off the bar for forging, because it doesn't in any way influence or
affect the way the piece looks after it's forged.  A customer is not getting
a different end product because the raw material was cut with a chop saw
rather than a hand-held hacksaw or a hot cut hardie.  I might, if I had one
in my shop, use an arc welder to tack the ends of rod bundles together for
forge welding to make basket handles, to be forge welded again onto the
finished poker or whatever.  I stop however at the kind of so-called basket
handles on items in many "hand forged iron" catalogs that are done with
pieces of rod bent in some kind of bending jig and arc welded onto the end
of the curtain rod, with a cast arrowhead finial arc welded on to the end.   

Of course, as has been stated by many of you, the great unwashed masses
don't know the difference, and in most cases couldn't care less, but WE do
know, and I believe it is our responsibility to try to help the rest to
know, so that the old technology is preserved, and that the distinction
between "hand forged" and "fabricated" is clear.  I guess what I'm really
after is that we as metalworkers represent our work honestly.  Whether a
piece is created entirely by traditional means, or is a combination of
forging and fabrication, or is entirely done with modern tooling and
involves no forging at all, really is not what matters.  What matters is
whether the piece is being represented as what it is to the public.  It
bothers me when I see modern made reproduction oak, or distressed pine
furniture sold at "antique auctions", if it is sold as antique.  If it is
presented as reproduction, then that's a different matter.  In the same way,
if a metal piece is a combination piece, or is entirely fabricated, and is
sold or displayed or presented as a fabricated piece, that's ok too.  It's
when someone sets him/herself up as a "blacksmith", advertises blacksmithing
and then proceeds to display or sell fabricated work as though it were
hand-forged that the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.    

I quote from a very professional, multi-page color catalog of iron work that
I have.  To quote - " The craft of the blacksmith harkens to the time before
machines and mass production. "  and  " All the furniture and accessories we
produce are authentically created by hand ".  The catalog is then filled
with items that in truth do have a lot of forged components, which are very
nicely done, I might add, but the lamps often have pressed steel bases, or
tripod legs that look traditional to the untrained eye, but are arc welded
on. Various items are arc welded together in an assembly that would be
impossible any other way, and often the welds are hidden by a wire wrap or
some such device.  Basket finials on the curtain rods and/or chandeliers are
made of individual jig-bent rods arc-welded onto the main rod with what
looks like a cast or perhaps die-forged knob arc welded on to the end of
that.  Most of the bends seem to have been cold bent (though I may be wrong
about that) and at the least are jig bent in order to be that uniform and
precise, and show no hammer marks.  Just recently I have seen some of these
items, and the stuff is very nice, and is of high quality, and will last
forever, but what about the quote about "authentic", and "before mass
production".  Doesn't that lead the consumer to believe that the product is
entirely traditional, and that he or she is getting a truly hand-forged,
blacksmithed item?

A walk through the furniture dept. of your local Sears store and an
examination of the candle holders, coffee tables and beds on display will
soon show you items similar to what I'm talking about.  That kind of stuff
is being represented in stores of all kinds all over North America as forged
ironware, and is that what we want people to think of what we do?   What are
we leading the masses to think that blacksmithing is/was when we present
them with this kind of work, and no accurate description of how it was made,
or worse yet, a misleading one, that would have them believe it is traditional?

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From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 21:42:30 EST

>> In a similiar vein: much of the great ironwork I have seen from
>> earlier times shows *no* hammer marks and flatteners are still a...

> I have always found it ironic that yesteryears "faults" become
> todays sought after traits.

I got a government commission once for a repro jail door for the
Halifax Citadel. Blueprints had shading and lots of boxed notes
emphasizing that all exposed surfaces should have "hammered texture
all over" and the engineers were at great pains to repeat it verbally
in case I didn't read so well. :-)

So I made the thing with hammer marks all over it. Eighteen-foot piece
of ca 1x1 tended to corkscrew and was a great pain to keep
aligned. They picked it up and were back in two days because the
archaeology guys told them that, in the period in question, (1860s
maybe? I forget) it wouldn't have had hammer marks. So would I please
grind all the hammer marks off. So now they've got anachronistinc
grinder marks instead of anachronistic hammer marks.

Feh.

- Mike

-- 

Michael Spencer               (902) 543-8375
[email-masked]
URL: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/mspencer/home.html
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From: [email-masked] (W Thomas Powers)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 23:12:31 EST

>I have always found it ironic that yesteryears "faults" become todays sought
>after traits.  A hundred years ago, smiths worked hard to avoid scale, hammer
>marks, etc.
>Modern machine tools were developed to perform work to a precision undreamed
>of back then... and now the "high dollar" stuff is *expected* to show the
>mark of hand-work, because the machinery performs that precision work so well
>and inexpensively, that the machine-made stuff is the "common" and hand work
>is considered more "upscale" (no pun intended).
>Lee Catlow

What I wanted to point out is that our perception of "traditional" hand work
is heavily coloured by the Arts&Crafts movement that made a virtue of doing
things by hand and leaving the tool marks visible to show that it wasn't
a machine made, industrial, "souless" object.  BTW at the time this occured
industrialism was already quite advanced and many of the tools we look
askance at existed.  So it is a fairly recent "tradition" as far as
traditional blacksmithing goes.

I don't think Tijou followed its dictates yet he did Awesome work.

(It was toward the 15th century that "benchwork" and cut and paste"
had a peak in fashion---a bit before the wire welder and the chop saw)

How do I work?  I don't have power to my shop yet so my triphammer is silent.
I use anything from wrought iron to D2 and charcoal or coal.  My welder
was made by Champion with assistance from the Pocahantus mine, Peter Wright
and a old hammer made from a truck axle.  Thank God I don't have to make
a living from it!  (as a hobby I can afford to waste the time to make
wrought iron from ore and blister steel from wrought and do a few blades
without using any power tools or even abrasive paper---but shop throughput
is glacially slow.)

Perhaps Ayrton and Silcock say it best: "It is the part of every good workman
to produce what is required of him in the best possible manner--to do
otherwise is merely to stultify himself and eventually to lose his place
among the craftsmen of other trades."

Each Pennsic there is a blade makers confab; we sit around passing blades
trading tips and telling stupid human tricks.  Everyone who participates
adds a bit to the whole from the people who have made only 1 knife in
their life to the gentlman who made 1000 swords in 1 year, (No that is not
a typo).  Each method fits a niche.  Now what we need to do is to get
a larger sub group of ironmongery buyers to appreciate the work we do
on its own merits.

Thomas  long and windy---too cold & dark to be out in the shop
Columbus, OH

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:03:43 -0500

>I got a government commission once for a repro jail door for the
Halifax Citadel... all exposed surfaces should have "hammered texture
all over"... so I  made the thing with hammer marks all over it.... They
picked it up and were back in two days because the archaeology guys told them
that, in the period in question, (1860s maybe? I forget) it wouldn't have had
hammer marks. So would I please grind all the hammer marks off. So now
they've got anachronistinc
grinder marks instead of anachronistic hammer marks.<

We did an interior woodworking job remodeling a modern, luxury hotel once;
they were going for the trendy "Southwestern" look.  We were instructed to
sandblast perfectly good wood to get the weathered look, and to mis-cut our
mitre joints, put hammer marks around the nail heads (after installing with
an air gun!!), etc.  Some of the carpenters were having a helluva (difficult)
time adjusting to the new spec.s, and it was a real brain-twist to hear the
architect ask to have a run of molding re-done because it "wasn't sloppy
enough." !!

In a book called "Structures, or Why Things Don't Fall Down",  author J.E.
Gordon talks about "skiamorphs" (shadow forms), and uses classical Greek
architecture as an example.  The beautiful temples with the classic stone
columns (which went on to become the models for lots of western civilizations
greatest works) are,from an engineering point of view,  entirely wrong, being
copies of earlier wood columns and beams.  The Greek architects must've felt
like they had to copy earlier works for the structures to "look right".

What the hell does any of this have to do with the Forge??  I would suggest
that all the recent discussion about traditional vs. modern technique is
really a moot point; if the piece "looks" and "feels" right, the customer
likes it, and the maker has been honest about it's manufacture, then there
really is no issue at all.  Skiamorphs have been part of our technology since
the first metalworkers pounded spearheads out of copper/bronze/whatever.  I'm
sure that the flint knappers got their noses out of joint, as this new
material was not "traditional".

Lee Catlow

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 19:09:11 -0500

Why didn't you remind them that in 1850 they didn't have "grinders"per se.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 06:21:26 CST

On Thu, 21 Mar 96 23:12:31 EST  W Thomas Powers wrote:

>a machine made, industrial, "souless" object.

I have often had people confuse "crude" for "period."  I instruct them to 
visit the Chicago Art Museum and look at the display of arms and armor 
there.  NOTHING about that display is crude or rustic!!!

-----------------------------------------------------
Name: Franklyn D. Garland        A Hobby Is Hard work
E-mail: [email-masked]          You wouldn't Do For
Date: 03/23/96                     A Living.

http://www.mcs.net/~frnklyn/homepage/

For PGP Public Key finger [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------

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From: [email-masked] (Thomas Boudreau)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:06:35 -0400

>there.  NOTHING about that display is crude or rustic!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good point:
       Historicly speaking, there is a difference between a *practical*
smith and a *artistical smith*. Only an artist has the time to perfect his
work and hope the customer appreciates it (and can afford it). A pratical
smith gets the work done, if it serves the purpose its finished, hammer
marks and all..
       We have an old chain (hand forged) in our shop, not only with hammer
marks, but the links are different sizes and some round, etc. Truly a work
of art!!

-->Thomas B.
-->N.S. Can.
-->[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (W Thomas Powers)
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:23:12 -0500

>Armouring was a very specialized trade in those days. A piece of armour could
>be forged by one smithy, sent to a different place for grinding and polishing,
>assembled in yet another place, and finally even sent abroad for guilding
>and engraving. I have seen hundreds of suits of armour, and not a single one
>that had hammer marks on the outside. I'm pretty sure that that the person who
>ordered the suit had his own grinder/polisher to make the suit look decent...
>Ralph Snel
>[email-masked]
>Sweden

The point I wanted folk to think about is that neither you nor I have ever
seen a medieval piece that has not spent several centuries between the time
it was made and the time we saw it!  We must be very carefull not to include
changes due to long spans of time as part of the original state.  If this
suit was sent to a polisher it should be recorded on the rolls; it was
the curator that stated that the change in state was due to centuries of
"up-keep"

Remember the art historian who made his career pontificating on the "gray
and stoney--sculptural" images Michangelo used on the ceiling of the Sistine
Chapel?  He's still mad as blazes that the restoration showed that the
originals were brightly coloured and it was 400 years of soot and dirt
that turned them into his "statues".  (from the LIFE and Newsweek articles
on the restoration.)

I was at a local museum yesterday and got to handle some 19th century
fireplace cooking stuff:  one of the two cranes showed hammer blows, one
was very clean.  The number of twists on trivit legs were not consistent
in a single piece and some trivets had welds where others had rivits.
As the old smith told me "Anyway that works is the right way"

I also got them to turn their kettle tilter right side up--it was hanging
from the crane with the kettle hooks!  (I have a fondness for kettle tilters
ever since I saw one in "Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" by
Seymour and Lindsay and said "I gotta make one of those!")

Thomas 
Columbus

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 17:58:14 CST

>As the old smith told me "Anyway that works is the right way"

Perhaps in this setting, my "Art Museum" analogy was poorly choosen.  I 
hope my point did get across, however, that many fine pieces were 
produced using methods we would now consider "crude."

On the same note, In front of Northwestern Memorial Hospital, facing Lake 
Shore Drive, is a memorial gate made by none other that Yellin.  I have 
spent many and hour studying every inch of that beastie.  Although the 
work is masterful (if poorly maintained by the University) it is not 
perfect either.  Just like the afore mentioned trivit and crane there are 
occaisional hammer marks and the twists aren't all alike.  But it is 
still, by NO means, crude.  I still can't imagine the size of the forge 
used to heat and twist some of the larger parts.  Must have been HUGE!!!!

Date: 03/27/96                     A Living.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:49:59 -0500

some books that i have found useful about the old ways: medieval to pre
industrial are

in the meantime  have fun
S sweebe