Subject: railroad spikes

From: "Young, Steve" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 11:04:00 PDT

Hello

I am a new subscriber and relatively new to the art of blacksmithing.  I 
picked up a hammer for the first time at Augusta in WV two years ago and 
have been practicing and practicing ever since.  I have recently tried 
forging art knives from railroad spikes and have several that I'm ready to 
harden and temper.  Unfortunately I am uncertain how to handle the heat 
treating process since I don't know what kind of steel I'm dealing with. 
 Can anyone offer some advice??

Thanks in advance

Steve Young

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From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:03:20 -0400 (EDT)

Just for clarification:  Don stated he thought high carbon RR spikes 
were 40% carbon.  I believe he meant 0.40% (40 points of carbon), which 
would be a medium carbon steel.

D.C. Hufford

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:22:53 -0400

Regarding my missing period...David is absolutely correct.  I am guessing
that rr spikes contain about 4 tenths of one percent carbon. or .4.  I would
really like to know for sure.  

I probably should not admit to this because the use of rr iron by someone not
wearing a blue and white striped cap can get you into trouble... but I like
the stuff for forging.  The added magnesium (I think) for corrosion retention
seems to give it just enough added qualities.  For example, I like to make
the large colonial meat forks and handles for ladles, etc, out of this stuff.
They have the added strength that prevents bending and do not easily rust up.
You can jab those tines into a roast pig and lift a whole ham without them
bending.

I fuller out the spikes on my power hammer to about 1/8 or so and keep their
standard 3/4 width.  You end up with about two feet of 1/8 x 1/4 and you can
make a lot of ladles, forks and spatulas from that one spike. 

Generally speaking, the acquisition of rr spikes is very economical.  But
that is another discussion.  Anyway, if anyone has any details on rr spike
composition, I would be seriously interested.

Also, I will contend until proven wrong, that you cannot seriously harden rr
spikes. But I would really like to be proven wrong on this.  

regards, again,    Don Plummer

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:50:52 -0400

To All,
Most regular track type hardware is made from 1080 or similar steel. Rails
are very close to 1080 for sure. Recent main line rail is hardened and may
contain some boron that really raises its hardenability. Unhardened rails
could be cut with a band saw but if you get a hardened one it will take the
teeth off a blade in short order. Anneal before cutting and you will be ok.
Switch gear like frogs and the like are made from a high (12%) manganese
steel that is not hardenable but is very wear resistant because it work
hardens.
Spikes are made in at least two grades, low and high carbon. High carbon
spikes are marked with "HC" on the head. They are hardenable and makes a
reasonable blade. I make then into "letter openers" with fully hardened
blades but with a rounded edge. I quench from a light orange heat in a 10%
brine solution and a fresh file just slides off. I temper at 400*F for an
hour in the oven.
Spikes are ok to use if you pick them up but no pulling.

Hochewa

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From: "Bodin, Jim" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 9:39:42 -0400

Don,

The reason the HC spikes are stronger than the low carbon ones - as the 
carbon content of steel goes up,  the tensile strength increases.  AISI 
1020  annealed TS =57000psi   AISI 1040 annealed TS = 75000psi  AISI 1080 
annealed 89000psi  As you draw these spikes out you are adding cold work 
to them at some point so the TS is going to go up more than these 
annealed tensile strengths.   Some day when our carbon analizer is 
running I'll test a HC spike and post the results.

Jim Bodin

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From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:52:02 +0000

On  4 Sep 96 at 13:23, [email-masked] wrote <snip-snip>

> My guess is that the high carbon spikes are around 40%.  I have
> tried hardening them in everything, including the Gunter Goop, with
> little success.

Railroad spike knives are a staple item in my shop, and I would agree 
that they are around .04% carbon (1040 or there-abouts).  I don't 
understand why you are having so many problens hardening them, 
though.  Perhaps you are not bringing the temperature up high enough 
before you quench them.  Here is my approach:

After forging, I allow them to cool to room temperature.  Lately I 
have been burying them in vermiculite to cool very slowly.  I then 
grind to suit and use my trusty torch to heat treat.  Using the flame 
like a "paint brush,"  I "paint" the heat along the cutting edge in 
slow even strokes.  Frequently check with the magnet, when the magnet 
no longer sticks you are just about there.  Bring the temperature up 
a little above the non-magnetic point and then quench it in room temp 
water.  Really swish that baby around to rapidly cool it, and then 
test with a file.  A "dullish" file should just scate off the cutting 
edge.  Haven't had one fail yet.  I then power-wire brush them clean 
and sharpen.  Then I wax em as a finish to keep them shiny.

I did some break tests on a few of these and was really fairly 
suprised.  If you bake them in an oven at 350-400 degrees F for
30-60 minutes they get very tough.

Give it a try..............

=================================================
Franklyn D. Garland                         
The Celtic Knot Forge                       
[email-masked]                                 
http://www.mcs.net/~frnklyn/homepage/
For Public PGP key, finger [email-masked]
=================================================

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From: Dave <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:48:16 -0500

At 06:26 AM 9/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Regarding the hardening of rr spikes I have found the results of the
>hardening to be somewhat disappointing.  In actual use the edge deteriorates
>very rapidly.  I have tried them as small finishing hatchets for green wood
>working,  for small adzes and  quite a few knives.  In all cases a few
>whacks, hacks and slices seemed to quickly take the edge off.
>
>Perhaps I have not been hardening and tempering correctly and will try again
>today. I have been only hardening and not tempering.  Perhaps I am also
>expecting too much from them.  I think the manganese and chromium in the
>spikes imparts some excellent qualities that contribute to workability and
>corrosion prevention.  But...re edged items, I still feel they are best for
>decoration and show.  
>
>Based on the feedback, however, I will try hardening and tempering again.
> But, if as George Ezell indicated, they are but 1045 I dont think we can
>expect a decent, lasting edge.  If you folks are getting good edges that
>really work I am anxious to make that happen and welcome any thoughts.  I
>greatly enjoy working with the things.
>
>Regards,  Don Plummer
>
>
>
>
>

Don - 

On thing you may also want to check is the angle of your edge.  If your edge
angle is to sharp, then the metal will have a tendancy to break and chip,
regardless of the quality of the hardening and tempering.  I believe that
the angle of the edge is supposed to be around 30 degrees, or so.  Anything
sharper will tend to chip away real fast.

Dave Brown
Heritage 'Smithing
Heritage Hill State Historical Park
Green Bay, WI

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:03:12 -0600

>A word of waning!!

>
>If the track is no longer in use, than it might be a different story, but
>in any case I would be very careful about beeing seen along any railroad
>lines.
>
>Albin Drzewianowski
>Editor, Blacksmith Guild of Central Maryland
>Westminster, MD
>
>

A safer plan would be to go to your local scrap yard for used spikes. There
is always a pile at mine.

Bob

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From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:35:47 +0000

> 
> A safer plan would be to go to your local scrap yard for used
> spikes. There is always a pile at mine.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 

If you ever decide to produce spike knives in any quantity (or spike 
anything for that matter)  they are available, brand-shiny new, from 
McMaster Carr for about $1.50@ (last I checked)  You can specify the 
HC type as well.

Sometimes it is nicer to have a consistant source than a "free" 
source if you have to make a bunch of em'.

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From: [email-masked] (George Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:12:02 -0500

That's pretty much what I have found Jim. Although I am not the blacksmith,
I leave that to my son, I am a railroad enthusiast. Walking up and down
railroad R-O-W has been second nature to me since I was a kid. Unfortunately
(in my opinion) there are too many abandoned R-O-W's around here. Most have
had their rails and ties pulled up, but there is always an ample supply of
old spikes laying around. I prefer those spikes that belonged to the MONON
Railroad. The Monon ran the length of Indiana from Louisville to Chicago
with many miles lof switches and spurs in between. Most of the old Monon is
now history. And what remains is owned by CSX---dont get caught messing
around main line operations. When I first wrote my comment on this a couple
of weeks ago it never occurred to me that anyonw would go out and try to
pull up spikes from an active railroad. Common sense and would dictate
otherwise. As I said, my son George, is an active blacksmith (recoving from
a broken arm right now (not blacksmith related) and has made a beautiful
letter opener for me from a Monon railroad spike taken from abandoned
roadbed south of Bloomington, Indiana. He heated the shank of the spike and
made two full twists in the handle, then beat out the rough shape of a blade
then finished it of on a large belt sander. Someday I would like to try my
hand at some of your art. I am particularly interested in the thread of
articles and ideas on etching steel. I think it would be neat to acid etch a
logo from your favorite railroad onto one side of the blade and maybe a
generic train scene on the other. At any rate, I think that spikes from a
particular railroad made into a knife or letter opener have more sentimental
value. I will be attending a Monon Railroad Society meeting the end of this
month. Im sure that if anyone had Monon spikes and had them forged into
knives--they could sell them. The only problem is--how do you prove it is a
spike from a particular road??? Beats me!!! They do all look alike. One
thing you all should be on the lookout for. Some railroads used much smaller
spikes for switchmachine anchors and for other light weight railroad work.
the are about one fourth (¼) the size of a regular spike. I havent seen any
of these in a long time, but they could make some excellent letter openers.
The only fault with the one my son made is that it can be used as a letter
opener or to commit HARI KARI with. It is a little too large for a letter
opener, but since he made it and I dote excessively on my children, I will
cherish it always.

Warmest regards

George I. Carpenter III

George I. Carpenter III

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From: Russell McCrackin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 01:08:11 -0700 (PDT)

At 08:29 AM 9/13/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>George Carpenter wrote:
>>> Im not encouraging anything here, but if casual jaunt down an old railroad
>>> track..... I leave the rest to your imagination. BTW--you can easily fit 3
>>> spikes in a hip pocket.
>
>Speaking of Railroads,the Texas State Railroad is a wonderful vacation
>spot. It's near Palestine.
>
>I use a railroad spike for my No.1 nailset, can't miss! A store bought
>nailset is my No. 0000 size. Also the No.1 grit sandpaper is, guess what? A
>medium sized rock. I'm not exactly the nuckle dragging type, but railroad
>spikes are a handy thing to have around. Like a No.1 "tuit".
>
>
>David
>http://www.flash.net/~dwwilson/
>[email-masked]
>
>
Hey David! I like the way you recycle rocks.  I recycle some of them
by chipping them into knives and other blades.  A good stone blade
does a better job of cleaning fat from a dear skin before tanning than
any steel blade I've found.  They do a pretty fair job of stripping
bark from poles, too.

Rusty

Get it hot and hit it hard.

Never use force, get a bigger hammer

 [email-masked]