Subject: copper sulfate

From: Roger Degner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:55:04 -0600

I have a question on the use of copper sulfate.  Somewhere I heard it could
be used to put a patina on metals.  Can it be used for steel, copper or
what?  I just recieved a 50# bag. It is dry blue crystals originaly made to
treat water to kill weeds.  How should it be mixed and used for a patina.
There is a warning label against breathing the dust or allowing the material
to be absorbed through the skin.  Thanks
Roger R Degner
[email-masked]
Minnesota
Roger R Degner
Minnesota

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From: Hank Kaminsky <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:50:35 -0600 (CST)

>to be absorbed through the skin.  Thanks

Ah, patinas.....what works, what is left to magic and what great results I
used to have with this or that chenical and now I forgot?

I've used copper sulfate mixed with ammonium chloride and painted it on a
bronze or copper surface and then sat back and watched it dry and get wet
again and after a long...long time, turn the surface an incredible
variegated green, blue, touch of other colors patina. I've also used
chlorides, sulfides, sulfates, and various adjustments to ph to make
something happen on the slowly aging, pitting surface of a bronze or copper.
I have no experience patining steel. 

There are formulas and all manner of hints and tips and try this direction,
that direction advise in books like The Bronzing, Patination and Coloring of
Bronzes (or some such named expensive book with pretty pictures and a lot of
certitude) 

I also recall somewhere way back that putting a nail in copper sulfate and
painting that out on lead or some lower activity metal will lay down a layer
of flash copper which could be colored.

It also works great to flush down the toilet and it chews on the roots and
stuff that invade your sewer lines. Eventually you have to get out the
backhoe but meantime copper sulfate is a stitch in time. 

In the end I have heard all kinds of theories about what works and why when
it comes to patinas and I deduce that it is the conversion of the base metal
in minute pores to salts of various colors. Copper sulfate is a salt of
copper and might perform to kick the raection in the right direction. 

In the end it's really magic.

Hank
Hank Kaminsky, Sculptor <[email-masked]>
Studio: "The Art Experience," 641 West 6th Street, Fayetteville, AR 72701
http://www.uark.edu/ALADDIN/artexp/hank/hankhome.html

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From: [email-masked] (Bradley Sanders)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:02:32 -0500

>to be absorbed through the skin.  Thanks
Hi Roger,

     We use it to put a beautiful even rust on hot rolled steel rails, etc, 
as a patina. This rust style is getting popular in the area. Then we cover 
it with a penetrol (clear) finish, 2 or 3 coats.

                                        Bradley Sanders
                                        [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:26:01 -0500

Roger..

Whatever you do, don't use copper sulphate to kill weeds in public waters.
 It works fine, but also kills off other things that makes the state Fish &
Wildlife rather upset.  They have some pretty stiff fines for such use.  It's
really a pisser if the water supply is used for drinking as well.  It's
really poisonous and works in small quantities.  If you're on a lake such as
I am, sink of bale of alfalfa hay in the area you want to free of weeds.  do
it quick before they get a good start.  

If I remember right, it works like, (or is,) Liver of Sulphate.  Used to
"age" copper.  I've used it on copper as liver of s. and it works fine to
bring on a fast really dark oxidation.

Kent   :o)

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From: Clyde Wynia <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 17:57:45 -0600

>it with a penetrol (clear) finish, 2 or 3 coats.

Mind explaining just how you do this? TIA

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From: [email-masked] (Bradley Sanders)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:37:10 -0500

>Mind explaining just how you do this? TIA

Mix it with a mild (10%) solution of sulphuric and water. Brush it on , let 
it set, brush it on several times. If you don't want to go to the trouble of 
mixing it, get Sur-Fin Green Patina for bronze and do the same technique.
I'll look up the address for Sur-Fin Co. if you want it.

                                             Bradley

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From: Clyde Wynia <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 20:39:55 -0600

>I'll look up the address for Sur-Fin Co. if you want it.

Thanks. Does the rust produced by the acid bath with the copper look any
different than the rust produced by the acid alone?

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From: [email-masked] (Bradley Sanders)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:42:40 -0500

>different than the rust produced by the acid alone?
Everything that you do in a patination situation makes a difference. 
Room temperature, liquid temperature, piece temperature (say if you bring 
your piece from chill outside), brushing technique (you should "wet" the 
surface, but allow no gathering of the liquid at the bottom edge), number of 
coats (it will turn a dark green sometimes, but I haven't been able to 
capture that).

     You can also use the copper sulfate with just water. If you want 
consistency, though, use distilled water, as the oxides in the water change 
the color.

     Mostly, experiment, experiment to get what you want. Do tests with 
different mixes and techniques. It's pretty much fun.

                                                  See you,

                                                  Bradley