Subject: Re: Am I the only one using LPG??

From: [email-masked] (steven bronstein)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:39:03 -0400 (EDT)

I use a mankel three burner for all of my work. I use my coal fire for the 
rare occasions that i need a forge weld and when i open my studio to 
tourists.I have 3 full time employees and couldn't imagine doing it any 
other way.I used coal for my first ten years in business and lpg works so 
much better for production.Also i live in Vermont and the heat is welcome in 
the shop.

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From: [email-masked] (Clay Spencer)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 00:03:19 -0400

At 12:17 PM 9/2/96, Donnie Fulwood wrote:
> Natural gas is
>much less expensive than LP but don't have the BTU that LP provides,
>therefore my gas forge won't quite get up to welding temperatures. I
>have to use the coal forge for welding.

Donnie,
Hoss Haley says he uses natural gas in his forge and he forge welds in it
in New Mexico. I believe he has a blower on the forge and may have
industrial pressure regulator which is higher pressure than residential NG.
Clay

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From: "Marrin T. Fleet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:06:07 CST6CDT

Ya'll wrote (variously):

> > I was wonderring due to all this coal discussion going on...Am I the only one
> > using LPG as a heat source??  Just curious..
> SNIP
> > 
> > JP Hrisoulas
> 
> Jim-
>  I wouldn't use anything else(but LPG). I believe that the problem you 
> ran into with the EPA concerns will have to be addressed by all the coal 
> forgers at some time in the future.  <SNIP>
> Bill Roberts

While I *strongly* believe we should act responsibly toward the 
environment, I also, and in some variance, believe it would be a 
great loss if we all were to switch immediately to gas to fire our 
forges.  To do so would be to risk losing a body of information that 
survives only through continued use.  What I think would be a 
responsible action would be to use the more environmentally friendly 
gas most of the time, but keep a coal forge also.  Use it when 
appropriate for the task at hand.  It would be nice if the EPA would 
recognise limited use of the coal forge would result in reduced 
pollution, but without carelessly discarding a tradition.  One day, I 
would also like to experience forging with charcoal, just to look 
into the past.

BTW - I saw the exhibit of "Recent American Blades" this weekend 
(for the second time!).  Among the finest is one by one Jim 
Hrisoulas.  I really enjoyed the exhibit, and having you on the net 
increased my enjoyment of your blade.  Thanks!
Marrin T. Fleet
[email-masked]
Admin. Computing Services
The University of Memphis
Memphis, Tennessee  38152
901-678-3604

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From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:21:27 +0000

On  2 Sep 96 at 9:02, [email-masked] wrote <snip-snip>

> I was wonderring due to all this coal discussion going on...Am I the
> only one using LPG as a heat source??  Just curious..
> 

I started out with coal, moved to coke and am now doing 95% of my 
work with gas.  I find that you really need more than one 
kind/configuration of gas forge in order to accommidate the vast 
difference in work piece size and shape.

BTW  Butning coal is illegal in Chicago.  Burning Coke kind of 
"skirted" the law.  But LPG doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

And that is the story from my neck of the woods.

=================================================
Franklyn D. Garland                         
The Celtic Knot Forge                       
[email-masked]                                 
http://www.mcs.net/~frnklyn/homepage/
For Public PGP key, finger [email-masked]
=================================================

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From: [email-masked] (Elton O Grubbs)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:05:28 -0700

You wrote: 
>
>Larry,
>  My uncle was a machinist aboard the U.S.S. Bunker Hill during WW II 
and 
>he said the forges aboard that ship were oil fired, took their fuel
>from the same tanks the boilers did, and he watched them forge weld in 

>them all the time, but never got close enough to see how they were 
built.
>At least, I am certain it is possible, if it worked fifty years ago, 
we 
>should be able to devise something better today!
>  Bob
>

We have a large furnace at work that cooks the brightness into the 
kaolin called a calaciner. They also use these to burn garbage in the 
cities. We change from LP to natural to fuel oil with the same burners. 
We only change the mixture of fuel and air(forced air from compresser). 
This is a very large burner though. Maybe I could get an old burner 
that they take out so someone who understands what makes them work 
better than me could figure out how to make our small systems do the 
same thing.Maybe???????????????????

Buster

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:13:10 -0400

A friend of mine who is a plumber told me there is a natural gas compressor
on the market which will raise the pressure of residential gas.  He said it
is fairly expensive (several thousand $) but might be the ticket for the
larger users.  I'll see if I can get more info and post it.  I personally use
LPG in the 100 lb tanks on my two atmospheric forges and it works well for me
for 90% of my work.  I fire up the coal forge when I have an odd piece that
won't fit the gas units.

I tried charcoal once and it worked but it burns up very fast and "floats",
which means don't turn the blast up too high or it comes out of the pot.  In
addition, don't work around a fire hazard because sparks tend to fly
everywhere.  I made the charcoal inside a barrel using ash and mesquite.  It
was a lot of work just to make fuel but at least I can say I did it once.

Regarding the waste oil, "The Machinist's Bedside Reader" by Guy Lautard has
an article on making a large blowtorch using gasoline(!?!?!) as a fuel.  I'll
look it up and see if there are any details on the burner, but I recall that
fairly high flame temperatures are possible.

hollis

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From: [email-masked] (David Hoopes)
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:21:12 -0500

>Peter Beky wrote:
>> 
>> [email-masked] wrote:
>> >
only one
>> With all this talk of coal, coke, natural gas and LPG, am I the only one
that uses *recycled
>> oil*?
>> 
>> Peter.
>That brings up an interesting question that I've pondered for a long
>time.  How feasible would a heating oil fired forge be?  Does anybody
>out there have any experience or comments?  Just curious.
>Larry
>
>
I took a class in bronze casting awhile back.  The instructor had a furnace that
ran off of diesel.  The burner on it was almost exactly like the propane burner
that I use.  This same setup should work for a forge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Hoopes
[email-masked]
Lenexa, Kansas (Near Kansas City, Mo)

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From: "Paul C. Sperbeck" <[email-masked]>
Date: 05 Sep 96 20:44:40 EDT

hollis
>for 90% of my work.  I fire up the coal forge when I have an odd piece that

I to am a plumber and thought that I'd toss in my two cents worth gas systems.I
may not have been following this train of thought to well, but if you are trying
to compress the natural gas so that you can use an atmospheric burner, you will
have much more success with the power blower burner. The limiting factor in most
natural gas installations is not the pressure available, but rather the amount
of gas (read as CFH or cubic feet per hour ) that most residential meters are
capable of delivering.
The typical residential gas meter passes on the order of 425 CFH, which
translates in average heat value of most natural gas to about 425,000 BTU/Hour.
Once you deduct the heating furnace, gas range and other appliances, and take
into account the length of the supply pipe and it's diameter, you more than
likely have only 100 to 150 CFH or 100,000 to 150,000 BTU/H at the end of an
open pipe without any back pressure, much less though an orifice. Look at the
Johnson 'slot' forges, if supplied with enough gas, you can damn near melt steel
in one of them. The internal temperature of a furnace is more closely related to
the BTU/H input per cubic foot of internal furnace volume than it is to the type
of fuel that you are using. One other advantage of using a powered burner in a
furnace with a door or similar variable size access ( fire brick piled up to
accommodate various sizes of stock as required),is that the mixture of the
furnace does not change with every attendant variation of back pressure that
results when you open the door or change the brick placement with out adjusting
the atmospheric burner, which has a very limited ratio of input level for a
given orifice size and venturi throat. One bright note... your local gas company
is in the business of selling GAS, and they would more than likely be willing to
explain the various methods of delivering more gas to you shop... just don't
mention that you are using a home brew forge, borrow someone's Johnson slot
forge or tell them that is what you want to install. Get the info from Johnson
in Iowa... drop me a note if any one needs specific help on pipe sizing or the
like.

Paul Sperbeck  

My grandfather WAS a blacksmith and it didn't do me one damn bit of good...

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From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:52:02 +0000

On  3 Sep 96 at 9:06, Marrin T. Fleet wrote <snip-snip>

> One day, I would also like to experience forging
> with charcoal, just to look into the past.
> 

It's Hot stuff!!!  It spreads out very quickly and burns quickly.  
But it is a joy to use and I can understand why some folks use it 
exclusively (like Tom Latane').  It is expensive though, a 40lbs bag 
really doesnt' last very long at all.

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From: "Marrin T. Fleet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:12:13 CST6CDT

You wrote:

> Date:          Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:52:02 +0000
> From:          Franklyn Garland <[email-masked]>
> Subject:       Re: Am I the only one using LPG??

> really doesnt' last very long at all.
Sounds interesting!  As I am not proposing a permanent switch, just 
the experience, the cost of a couple of 40# bags shouldn't be too 
prohibitive.

Thanks!

Marrin T. Fleet

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:32:41 -0400

My gas company said they could for a hundred bucks or so change my gas from
 approx. 1/2 pound to 2 pounds.  Not sure if that's enough but might help..

Dick