Subject: Re: Descaling steel - vinegar

From: [email-masked] (Dan Hughes)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:47:43 -0400

>At 07:15 5/31/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Bill:
>>
>>I've mostly used vinegar for descaling steel.  If you soak a piece
>>overnight, the scale falls off and a light wire brushing will yield a
>>bright, clean surface.  Sparex No 1 is for ferrous metals, Sparex No 2
>>is for non-ferrous.  I've not used Sparex, but reportedly it works very
>>well.
>>
>>D.C. Hufford
>>
>>
>>
>
>I tried the vinegar bath and it certainly does work.  I used Heinz distilled
>white vinegar.  But, I did have a couple of pieces that I inadvertantly left
>soaking over the weekend.  It's quite pitted, but not ruined.  Actually the
>effect was sort of interesting.
>
>Dave B

I have heard that Coke (the soft drink) is acidic enough to remove rust and
scale. It is probably more expensive than vinegar though.

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 15:55:55 EDT

> I have heard that Coke (the soft drink) is acidic enough to remove
> rust and scale. It is probably more expensive than vinegar though.

Various kinds of carbonated drinks used to have phosphoric acid in
them. (You may have heard someone's Granny refer to them as
"phosphates".) I'm pretty sure that this ingredient was abandoned 60
or so years ago, possibly because of the tendency of the acid to
dissolve your teeth. But I've noticed that some recent macho entries
to the soda pop lineup list phosphoric acid as an ingredient again. 

Kinda expensive way to buy yer phosphoric acid, though. :-)

I've found phosphoric acid both easier to handle and better for
cleaning ironwork than either HCl (aka hydrochloric aka muriatic acid)
or nitric acid. Less dangerous and, if you fail to get it all off,
what it leaves behind (iron phosphate) is protective rather than
potentially corrosive. I was never more upset with a cleaning attempt
than when I put a somewhat intricate sculprural piece into muriatic
acid and got it really nice and clean, only to have it develop
unremoveable rust streaks and blotches all over before I could get it
dry.

Never tried vinegar. Sure beats everything alse for safety!

- Mike

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 14:45:44 MDT

Can anyone explain why the iron phosphate residue from phosphoric acid
cleaning resists corrosion?

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:36:59 -0800

> Never tried vinegar. Sure beats everything alse for safety!

Carbonated beverages still have phosphates, they're just not listed. 
It's one of the health hazards of sodas. The phosphate leaches the 
calcium from bone.

I use phosphoric acid in about a 3-4% solution for restoring rusty 
tools, equipment, etc.

To answer Steve's question. The phosphoric acid works as a reducing 
agent because it has a greater affinity for oxygen than iron. I believe 
the iron phosphate coating traps oxygen before it can get to the iron 
underneath.

Hoping I'm right,
	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:10:23 -0400

Just a comment about phosphoric acid. Bob Patrick recommended using phosphoric
acid as a way of removing excess borax after forge welding. I use Oakite 31 in
a 5% by volume (roughly) solution. It does a nice job. I'm sure other chemical
companies would have similar products.

I've also heard of using buffered phosphoric acid, but when I checked on its
availability, I found it came in 55 gal. drum minimum. I didn't need that much
help.

Even though phosphoric is not as corrosive as HCl (muratic), remember to pour
acid into water, wear goggles, and don't stick your arm in the bucket to get
the parts out.

Mark

-- 
Dr. Mark E. Williams
Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
Wallops Island, VA 23337
804-824-1744
[email-masked]

I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.
Grouch Marx

---

From: Tom Alexander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:19:27 -0400 (EDT)

While on the subject of cracking while knife-making, recently I have pounded
out several from 3/4' W-1, gotten them ground down to a near-finished state,
then tried to harden them by heating to a cherry red and quenching in water,
at which point all of them have cracked in thin portions of the blade. What
am I doing wrong?

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:27:02 -0700

Two questions Tom, Did you anneal between forging and grinding?  Also, 
my experience showed me that hammering both sides equally, number and 
relative strength of each blow, helped to keep stresses from entering the 
steel, but the anneal step is critical.  It serves to ease those 
stresses.  Annealing can be done in wood ashes.  The little bit of 
charcoal in the ashes will prolong the cooling process by quite a bit, 
and the slower the cool-off, the more stress relieved.  If it's still too 
hot to touch 24 hours later...that's great!
   Bob

---

From: "[email-masked] 415.855.5707" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 10:34:24 -0800 (PST)

Vermiculite works great for annealing too.  I like it because it is available
at any garden supply store.  Before placing blades (or whatever hot metal you
want to anneal) in the box of vermiculite I put a red-hot block of steel in to
warm things up, slow the cooling and make sure there isn't any moisture in the
vermiculite.

Just my two cents.

Joe McGlynn

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:12:12 -0400

On Jul 10,  9:58am, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: Re: Tool Steel
>
> [ plain text
>   Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] :
Tom Alexander wrote:
> You might try quenching in used motor oil or transmission fluid if the
> water is causing cracks. Be sure you have a metal container and a lid
> and be ready for the oil to burst into flame (that's what the lid is
> for.) I have some commercial quenching oil that I used, it won't flare
> like oil. You might also try quenching in brine.
> --
> Jim McCarty

Jim usually has good advice, however, if plain water caused cracking then brine
will be worse for the metal. Brine is a more severe quench than water.

Mark

Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, lest ye deceive yourselves.
New Testament, the Bible

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:58:26 -0500

You might try quenching in used motor oil or transmission fluid if the 
water is causing cracks. Be sure you have a metal container and a lid 
and be ready for the oil to burst into flame (that's what the lid is 
for.) I have some commercial quenching oil that I used, it won't flare 
like oil. You might also try quenching in brine.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

³Foolish consistencies are the hobgoblins of little minds³

---

From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:13:17 -0700

Please don't quench anything in used motor oil!!!

The metals held in suspension from an engine contain cadmium, lead, and 
who knows what else. The additives that are now in use should not be put 
under the heat used at quenching temps. The fumes given off are not only 
noxius, but potentially carcenogenic. Spend the pennies and buy 
commercial quench oil that is specifically formulated for this process.

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering
Making a Good Impression

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 14:15:02 EDT

Jim McCarthy wrote:
> This guy made a gig from a piece of leaf spring using nothing but
> single hammer and a chisel...

Enlighten me (or all of us on TheForge). What's a gig?
Do you mean some kind of multi-point fish spear? By local usage here in
Nova Scotia, a "jig" is a lead weight with several fishhooks on
it that is dragged or jerked up and down where fish are thick (these
days, mostly limited to squid) so's to just grab them out of the
water. There's also a traditional eel spear (so-called, with no
special name) with 8 symmetrical barbed tines and a central blade,
used to snag eels from muddy bottoms. The hand-forged ones are lovely
items with the 8 tines made as four pieces and wedged into a mortise
in the shank of the blade. In New England, I've seen
somthing called a  "sucker spear", similar to our eel spears but
considerably smaller and lighter. I don't know what a "sucker" is
exactly, but I think it some kind of alewife (called a "kayack" here.)

Regards,
- Mike

-- 
Michael Spencer               (902) 543-8375
[email-masked]
URL: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/mspencer/home.html
---

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:29:52 -0400

On Jul 12,  2:15pm, Michael Spencer wrote:
> Subject: gig?

I assume a gig is for spearing frogs.

Mark

---

From: Chris Kilpatrick <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 07:31:55 -0700

Just because you can water quench doesn't mean you should.  Try oil 
quenching.

---

From: [email-masked] (Roger V. Petrella Jr.)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:45:00 -0700

You wrote: 

>Someone posted this info yesterday, but I must have deleted it. Bet we 
>can get a repost ont he tool group. As for Rural Missouri, I am teh 
>editor of that publication. It is put out by Missouri's electric 
>co-ops, you have a similar publication called Colorado Country in  
>your state.
>
>You can subscribe cheap -- $11.70 for three years or $4.43 per year. 
>It's a tabloid format magazine, strong on photo feature stories, 
>recipes, personalities, cooepratives in general, very little company 
>line. Would be glad to send you a sample copy -- just send me your 
>mailing address.
>
>I run an ad in the publication seeking blacksmith tools. Have had 
>great luck -- it reaches 385,000 rural people and there are lots of 
>tools out there. Been buying complete shops when I have the money.
>
>Take care, Jim
>-- 
>Jim McCarty
>Father Helias Forge
>Taos, MO
Jim,

Never even heard of "Colorado Country".  Do you know how to get a copy 
of it?  Don't have a clue as to where to start looking.  The local 
library never heard of it.

I would appreciate a sample copy of Rural Missouri.  Please send it to:

    Roger Petrella
    3218 W. 11th Ave. Place
    Broomfield, CO  80020

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 09:32:39 -0500

Roger V. Petrella Jr. wrote:
> >3Foolish consistencies are the hobgoblins of little minds3
> >
> >
> >
> Jim,
> 

Hi Roger,
Colorado Country Life can be reached at the following adress and phone 
numbers:

1313 W. 46th Avenue
Denver, CO 80211
(303) 455-2807

This one has a classified section, price is 72 cents per word. Try an 
ad looking for blacksmith tools, it will pay off! Will send you a 
Rural Missouri. Tell me what you think.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:13:36 -0400

I was too quick on the delete key. Would someone please post/repost the address
for the Midwest Tool Collectors organization.

Thanx in advance.

Mark

---

From: Dave <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:09:50 -0500

At 12:55 PM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Yo, Master Frost, I too would like an explanation of the cable twist.
>
>D.C. Hufford
>
>
>

And maybe a drawing, if deemed helpful.

Dave Brown
Heritage 'Smithing
Heritage Hill State Historical Park
Green Bay, WI

---

From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:51:47 -0800

> And maybe a drawing, if deemed helpful.

Sorry, I can't draw something like this worth spit. :(~ I'm afraid I'd 
create more confusion than the straight description and giving it a try.

I just tagged my description onto Bob's, "Cable Twists" Cause I'm lazy.

Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:25:16 -0500

> Heritage Hill State Historical Park

Dave raises an interesting point -- is there some way to post drawings 
along with our e-mail? I know we can attact files to e-mail but I have 
had trouble turning them into something I can use and with all the 
different formats for graphics and different levels of understanding 
it would be a mess (not to mention the download times). Wonder if 
there is some way we can post images to the ABANA site and tag the 
e-mail with a reference to that file for viewing via the web? Or does 
something like this have to wait until the next generation of 
software? Would love to have been able to see a picture of Frosty's 
Dragon as I read about it.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:45:50 -0400

On Aug 6,  9:25am, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: Re: demonstrations
>
> [ plain text
> Dragon as I read about it.

A possibility would be to have a ftp site on the web page (ABANA). People could
upload images to the site and you could download them without attaching them to
email. Then, as part of the email message, one could say get file XXX at the
anonymous ftp site .

Mark

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 09:15:26 -0500

Dr. Mark E. Williams wrote:

> email. Then, as part of the email message, one could say get file XXX at the

This sounds like it might work. How about it George, is this a 
possibility??

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:58:18 -0500

To all:

After what seems like two years of waiting I have a daughter -- Emily 
Eileen McCarty, born Aug. 13. Mom and child are doing quite well, dad 
is a little tense...
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:47:34 -0400

On Aug 19,  9:58am, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: New arrival
> Eileen McCarty, born Aug. 13. Mom and child are doing quite well, dad

Jim, Congratulations! Just remember, pay the bills now and, sooner than you
think, you'll be the fater of the bride.

Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:57:09 -0800

> Eileen McCarty, born Aug. 13. Mom and child are doing quite well, dad

Congratulations Jim and Mom!

Let me know if you have trouble finding leathers in her size, my 
sister's a seamstress and I think I can pressure her into making the 
appropriate gear for your new helper.

I'm smiling for you,
	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: Bill Roberts <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:07:39 -0400

Jim-
 
What wonderful news! Congrats to you and yours.
Life's fixin' to get alot more interesting.
Bill

---

From: Steve Herrick <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:51:32 -0700 (PDT)

Oh that's just great, just what the world needs is another blacksmith....

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

Hrolthgar -   [email-masked]
           Steve Herrick

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:36:24 -0400

Dick & others,

I talked with a gentleman named Steve Young who works for the Consolidated Coal
Company, Inc. He said that Pocahantes was originally from West Virginia but is
currently being mined in Buchanan county, Virginia. I assume that the vein runs
that way as the county borders on West Virginia and on Kentucky. In any case,
he said that they usually make shipments to Norfolk by the unit train 100 - 100
ton cars at a time and shipped millions of tons of coal last year. The price at
the mine is roughly $30 per ton. He said he will ask around for marketers
willing to sell in smaller than 100 T loads and get back to me.

Where in Nebraska are you (Dick) located?

I'll keep you all posted.

Mark

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:23:23 -0500

> I'll keep you all posted.

BAM is buying coal by the tractor trailer load from this vein. It is 
shipped in 50 lb bags and we resell to members for $7.50 per bag. I 
think we have some kind of deal with a guy who drives a truck that way 
where he is picking it up when he has an empty trailer. Perhaps other 
chapters might consider doing this. The bags make it pretty easy to 
handle. It's good coal.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 08:06:06 -0400

Since last I wrote, I've been in contact with Classic Coals located in western
Virginia. Contact Rick Taylor at 540-322-4066

He said the cost at the mine is $40-$45 per ton for a truck load fo 20 to 30
Tons. Once shipping is included the price will be around $60/T bulk. This is
3/8" - 3/4" nuggets of Pocahantes coal. He needs 2 day notice minimum. He's
located about 8 hours from DC and his normal shipment is by the trainload.

Take care.

Mark

---

From: Scott Stager <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 16:17:51 CDT

Over the last few days:

Clay Spencer wrote:
 >Hey BAMmers,
 >Is it true that about 10 lbs. of the anvil you were going to replate=
 >melted and ran down to the bottom of the forge?

To which Bill Roberts replied:
 >Clay-
 >What are you stirrin' up? Was this one of those " I thought YOU were
 >watchin' the fire" things?

Which prompted Clay Spencer to say:
 >That's what I'm trying to find out. I hear that about 10 lbs. of anvil was
 >melted in a gas forge while they were preheating it to weld a plate on.
 >I reckon McCarty's fingers are broke and he can't type anymore.

To which Jim McCarty broke his silence with:

>Now there you go with the negative vibes...everyone knows you can't
>melt an anvil in  a gas forge. Now if you were to take the same
>preheated anvil outside, for example, and maybe dig a trench in the
>ground, and maybe put a piece of pipe in the ground and atttach it to
>one of those Centaur blowers that don't work very well with rheostats,
>
.... clipped ....
     Jim's excellent flowing and lyrical essay on the possibilities of a
     purely hypothetical experiment to forge a new plate on an old anvil.
.... clipped ....

To which I just have to comment:

I just knew that Jim could do a much better job at describing the
flow and ebb of the numerous theoretical possibilities of such an
experiment.

The purpose of an experiment is to learn something, right??   All
experiments are successful at gathering knowledge; some just have more
desirable results than others.  ;.) ;.)

So, let me add the spin (I mean comments) of a very rank amatuer
beginning blacksmith who has enjoyed the comaraderie and knowledge
sharing of the BAM and ABANA organizations for the past 5 years.  In
particular a number of things that I COULD learn or previous lesson's
which COULD be re-enforced by such an experiment.

- A gas forge is definitely more controllable than a coal fire.  A large
  piece of iron can be kept at a cherry red for HOURS without being
  tended.

- On the other hand!! A coal fire can get REALLY HOT.  I.E.  Don't walk
  away with the blower on.

- Don't place (let drop) the iron two deep into the firepot.
  Wild and crazy things can happen down deep in the fire.

- Light levels REALLY DO affect the visual perception of the
  temperature of a piece of iron.  Red is only red in the shade.

- Hand cranked forges probably are better for beginners (and anyone
  whose attention wanders :^)  ).

- Iron really CAN burn up.

- Massive pieces of hot iron stay hot for a LONG time.  All iron
  is hot until you know absolutely otherwise.

As I said, all experiments are learning experiences, and I learned a
lot!!  ;,) ;.)  Plus had a great time, and will have tales (fiction of
course) to relate around the campfire (I mean forge fire) for years to
come.

Anybody have some anvils they want to contribute so this theoretical
experiment can be pursued?  I am sure Jim would volunteer to stack
them out back behind his forge until the next round of experiments.
(Jim - I get first dibs!!)

Didn't Thomas Edison have to try around 20,000 substances before he
created a light bulb that burned for more than a few seconds?

-- You blacksmiths/metalworkers are a GREAT bunch of folks.

-- Scott

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:56:02 -0500

> -- You blacksmiths/metalworkers are a GREAT bunch of folks.

Scott -- these are some excellent theoretical points. Think I have 
just enough room out back to store 100 anvils. An experiment of this 
nature would require at least that many.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:00:06 -0500

I've got one of those cast ladle swages that you see for sale at most 
of the regional conferences. I've used it a few times for steel but 
last night I tried sinking a copper ladel. It worked real well until I 
tired to get it out. I had to just about destory it to remove it. 
Anyone else had this problem and solved it? I annealed the copper and 
then worked it cold to the form. Perhaps that's the problem -- the 
steel probably shrinks a lot as it cools.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

Simplify, simplify, simplify
--H.D. Thoreau

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:41:52 -0400

On Oct 10,  9:00am, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: Ladle sinking

Jim,

The first copper ladle I ever made had the same mishap you describe. What I did
was make a wooden mold for the initial sinking, then the steel mold for final
sinking, and a planishing stake to give some smoothness to the final product.
 When you anneal copper, it's the heat that anneals it. The cooling time
doesn't affect the outcome. So I dunk it in the slack tub after heating the
copper to a black or very dull red heat. This has the advantage of throwing off
all the scale formed in the forge.

You could contact Doug Hendrickson as I understand he's made a ladle or two out
of copper. BTW I was in Doug's Kitchen Smithing class at JC Campbell School
when I made my first ladle.

Mark

James 1:22

---

From: "[email-masked] 415.855.5707" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:42:57 -0800 (PST)

Jim's question about ladle sinking reminds me of a question I've been wondering
about:

I want to make some kitchen utensils and I'm wondering what materials are
food-safe?  I've heard that copper pans can cause some kind of poisining if
they aren't coated with tin.  I also know that real chefs like to beat egg
whites in a bare copper bowl because it makes them fluff better.  And then
there are those copper jello molds.

What gives?  Can I safely make copper and brass ladles and spoons for use as
cooking/serving utensils?

Thanks for your input,
Joe McGlynn

---

From: Hays/Cash <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:14:22 -0400

A friend of mine who imports copper work from turkey said that they
tinned copper by smearing tin powder on the hot copper with an asbestos glove.
        Anyone know who supplies tin powder, or any methods of tinning copper?

--Doug Hays & Penny Cash
  [email-masked]
  http://hayscash.com

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 22:00:23 EDT

> Anyone know who supplies tin powder, or any methods of tinning copper?

I use a product called TinRite, made by The Canada Metal Company.

It's a mixture of tin powder and a bodacious powerful flux. Heat the
copper, dump on some TinRite, heat some more and when the tin begins
to bead, swab it around with a leather swab or steel wool. (The latter
risks leaving bits of steel wool in the tinned finish.) Makes quite a
bit of acrid smoke.

You can do it over a coal fire but it's not a good idea. Bits of coke
and flyash adhere to the copper and make nasty little pits. A charcoal
fire is ok, as is a big propane torch.

I once called the mfgr and spoke to someone in the lab who assured me
that the metal in the product was pure tin, no lead. (If anyone has
reason to believe that this is false, I'd really like to know it. On
the other hand,  I recently had a complete heavy/toxic metals blood
workup and I was clean after cooking in a TinRite-plated pot for a
decade.)

> ...smearing tin powder on the hot copper with an asbestos glove.

Why didn't I think of that? Both the leather swab and the steel wool
are messy.

- Mike

---

From: Morgan Hall <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT)

>         Anyone know who supplies tin powder, or any methods of tinning copper?

OK, as a retreaded coppersmith I can help here.  To tin copper, take
some good old block tin, some flux (soft solder flux or sal ammoniac, or
killed salts), a wad of cotton cloth, a hunk of stiff wire, and some
plain old thick gloves.  Pour the flux into a dish, make a dauber with
the cotton cloth and wire (wad of rag on a handle).  Soak the dauber in
flux till it's wet (just shy of dripping).  Heat the copper to about
boiling and swab it good with the flux.  The flux should give you a nice
red color.  If not, clean it all up and try again.  When you have the
area you want to tin all nicely fluxed, increase the heat and rub the
stick of block tin on the heated surface.  Increase the heat till it
just melts.  Use the flux-saturated swab to evenly coat the copper.

If you heat things up too much, you're gonna burn the flux, oxidize the
tin, and have a general mess on your hands that you'll have to clean up
before you try again.  Try to keep the temperature just a tad above the
melting temperature of the tin.

The biggest thing going here is practice.  If you get too much tin on,
you won't have a nice clean coat.  Not enough, you won't get the
coverage.  Too much heat burns things.  Not enough and the tin doesn't
melt.

That's about it.  Enjoy!

Morgan

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 16:11:37 MDT

>         Anyone know who supplies tin powder, or any methods of tinning copper?

At a conference Rob Gunter told how he does it. He melts tin in the
ladle and then smears it around with a wadded up T shirt (wear heat
proof gloves!). Copper must be clean! This works because tin melts at
a lower temp than T shirts. I would be tempted to use a 100% cotton
rag, rather than a T shirt.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:30:33 -0500

> Why didn't I think of that? Both the leather swab and the steel wool

Do you have an address for ordering Tin Rite?
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:55:18 -0400

Jim & others,

TinRite's maker

The Canada Metal Company, LTD.
721 Eastern Avenue
Toronto, ON, CA
M4M 1E6
416-465-4684
416-465-8053  fax

Mark

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 12:45:19 EDT

> Do you have an address for ordering Tin Rite?

No. I bought it from an industrial hardware/supply shop in Halifax,
NS. I learned about it from a repair shop in a paper mill.
You can turn up an address with a search on one of the major web
search services. And you might try phone information in Toronto -- I
think that was where I called them. Try area codes 416 (Toronto) or
519 (south-west Ontario).

- Mike

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:29:29 -0500

>Anyone know who supplies tin powder, or any methods of tinning copper?
 
Tin oxide is a common ingredient in ceramic glazes and can be readily
obtained from a clay company type ceramic supply store.  It comes as a
white powder for about $12.00 per pound.  I don't know if it would work
but it might be worth a try.  Let me know if you need the name of a
supplier.
 
Cynthia
TX

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 17:01:29 EDT

Mark Williams waved his magic wand and wrote:

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    M4M 1E6
    416-465-4684
    416-465-8053  fax

To which I'll add:

  1-800-268-6702

I just talked to someone at Canada Metal and he assured me that the
800 number was good for the U.S. (It's not valid here in the Canadian
Maritimes, which Ontario regards in the same way that New Yorkers
regard, oh, say...Little Rock. ;-)

He also said that TinRite contains only pure tin (aside from the flux,
which can be washed off.)

- Mike

---

From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 06:35:55 +0000

On 23 Oct 96 at 16:48, daryl (d.a.) bender wrote <snip-snip>

> snip...
> >believe that they are listed in the FAQ. If you decide to build
> >one,
> 
>  FAQ?! FAQ!? There's a FAQ list somewhere!? 
> 

Well, Sort of................

I am pleased to announce that the UMBA Website is now hosting a feature 
called "The Blacksmiths Compendium."  As it's name suggests, the 
Compendium is a gathering of the threads of discussion from this
and other sources.  The threads have been edited together into a 
series of "articles" arranged or grouped according to topic.

The majority of material was gleaned from this list.  So,
while this is not a "Traditional FAQ", it should serve that purpose 
well.  

The current offerings are on Anvils, Aircompressors,and Blacksmiths 
Elbow.  We are working on nearly a dozen additional topics currently, 
and we will be adding to the compendium on an on-going basis.  If 
anyone has any old threads they have saved and feel they want 
included in the compendium, please send them to the Editor of the 
Compendium (Joseph Urbano) or to Myself.

The URL is:   http://www.mcs.net/~umba

Just select the "Blacksmith's Compendium" from the main menu.

Thank You, and your feedback on our efforts is always welcome.

=================================================
Franklyn D. Garland                         
The Celtic Knot Forge                       
[email-masked]                                 
http://www.mcs.net/~frnklyn/homepage/
For Public PGP key, finger [email-masked]
=================================================

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 96 13:46:46 EST

A year or so ago there was a FAQ for trial.rec.metalworking. I just
looked on ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/ and it isn't there
nor is in the current batch of 1000 posts on my NNTP server. Anybody
know where it went? Who the FAQ maintatainer is or was?

- Mike

---

From: George Montee <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:15:54 -0800

Actually, I have two questions.
#1 I have a hand cranked blower for my forge. How do I care for it? It 
has an oil port on the top with a hinged cover (at least that's what I 
think it is). Do I have to tightened anything? How often does it get 
oiled? What kind?

Question #2 (yes, I realize it's really question #5 or 6.) I have a small 
shop for the winter (okay, it's really a converted shed, but my wife 
wanted the garage back to park her vehicle), would I benefit from having 
a carbon monoxide detecter mounted on the wall?

This blacksmithing stuff is harder then it looks,
George Montee
Fort Fairfield, Maine

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:31:55 -0500

On Nov 9,  1:46pm, Michael Spencer wrote:
> Subject: Re: FAQ?!

Try rec.crafts.metalworking

The FAQ maintainer is James Kirkpatrick at the University of Wyoming

Try http://PLAINS.UWYO.EDU/~metal/index.html

Mark

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:56:16 -0500

On Nov 11,  7:15am, George Montee wrote:
> Subject: Blower Care

I don't know if there is any "best" oil. I tend to use whatever is at hand.
Usually that is a straight, non-detergent oil like sae 30. Don't use old engine
oil.
> a carbon monoxide detecter mounted on the wall?

Depends on how drafty your forge/shed/shop is. Also, do you have a chimney for
your coal-fired forge? Must get nippy in your shop about now.

Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Noller, Joyce)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:27:35 -0900

> This blacksmithing stuff is harder then it looks,
  Beyond filling the gearbox with 90 weight gear lube you should put oil
or grease, as appropriate, in any oil holes or grease fittings you find
(some of the better blowers have them on the crank bearing for example).
If the blower blade is turning freely and the handle is tight there
isn't much to be done in the way of adjustment.  Oh yeah, if the gearbox
has a petcock at the bottom of the case it should be closed before
filling the gearbox with oil.  
2.  Now that CO detectors are reasonably priced there's no reason not to
have one.  A clean fire (even in a gas forge) puts out a lot more carbon
monoxide than you'd think and small imperfections in your ventilation
system (or even a change in the weather) can cause CO to back up into
your shop without warning. 
Larry Noller

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:33:25 -0500

Hello all,

At the ABANA Board meeting held last week the board considered putting 
together a book composed of the best articles from the Anvil's Ring. 
It would probably be around 60 pages, same stock as the magazine and 
include all the drawings etc. from the original. Sounds like a good 
idea, as the back issues of the Ring are becoming scarce but I would 
like some input on how much interest there is out there for this 
project.

Would you guys buy one? Price depends on printing costs but I would 
guess no more than $10.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:05:42 -0500

On Nov 19,  9:33am, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: Best of the Ring
> Hello all,
>
Jim,

Sounds good to me. I'll buy one.

Mark

---

From: "[email-masked] 415.855.5707" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:35:16 -0800 (PST)

>Would you guys buy one? Price depends on printing costs but I would 

Yes, please.  I'll take two.

What would be the content?  Gallery pictures?  How-to stuff?  A mix?

I think a book of just the "best" of the gallery pics would be great to have
too.

Why doesn't ABANA publish a series of smithing books?  Hmmm, I might have some
other ideas brewing, you'll be sorry you asked before it is all through.

Joe McGlynn

---

From: Diver <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:43:23 -0500

Absolutely! Anything that helps me learn I would buy. I always can use
reference material.

---

From: [email-masked] (Doug Taylor)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:22:00 +1100

> Would you guys buy one? Price depends on printing costs but I would

OK, you've seen my previous message?? I would like one.
I would pay up to $US 20 (not including postage)

---

From: "John P. Husvar" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:33:08 -0800

Count me in for one copy--at least.

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 15:33:44 MST

> other ideas brewing, you'll be sorry you asked before it is all through.

Good point. It's starting to sound like at least two books--gallery
and howto. Or else the book grew past 60 pages.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: hubbard chris j <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:30:50 -0600 (CST)

I would buy it

---

From: [email-masked] (Bryan Jones)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:52:09 +0000 (GMT)

Jim -

> Would you guys buy one? Price depends on printing costs but I would 

I'm interested, and I've never applied hammer to anvil.  Would
you by any chance know if it's apt to contain any articles or
photos by Don Hawley?

(I'd have sent this backchannel, but your EMail address isn't in
your .sig, and I can't find it in the List subscriber info.)

Best,

- brYan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
STRATOS                   |       Bryan       |               Seattle, WA
Product                   |         H         |      Live, on Elliott Bay
Development               |       Jones       |          ph: 206-448-1388
Group                     |  [email-masked]  |         fax: 206-448-7830

---

From: Ed Kreyling <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:04:44 -0600

Jim McCarty wrote:
> --H.D. ThoreauI would love one, please keep us informed.

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:12:05 -0500

Anyone have the address and phone number for Carolina Glove?
-- 
Jim McCarty
[email-masked]
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:06:01 -0500

On Dec 9,  3:12pm, Jim McCarty wrote:
> Subject: Carolina Glove

Try

Carolina Glove Company
P.O.Box 820
 Newton, NC 28658
800-438-6888

I understand they will sell you pairs of gloves or singles only. I guess they
have a lot of lefts left.
Mark

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 03:22:11 EST

At an ABANA conference in '82 or '84 I saw a glove made from some
hi-tech stuff -- ceramic matt maybe? -- that was quight light, not
extremely bulky like asbestos gloves and would let you touch or even
hold a red hot bar without getting burned.

Anybody know where these can be had? What's special about Carolina
Glove Company?

- Mike

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 08:41:05 -0500

On Dec 11,  3:22am, Michael Spencer wrote:
> Subject: Re: Carolina Glove

No doubt that what you saw was a Kevlar glove. I've used them and they work
quite well. Carolina Glove is one of the producers of Kevlar gloves. In
addition, they will sell you pairs or just single hands, like a dozen left
gloves.

What I like about Kevlar is, unlike leather gloves, when a Kevlar glove gets
hot and you remove the heat source, the glove gets cold quickly. A leather
glove retains the heat.

Mark

---

From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 00:42:06 EST

> What I like about Kevlar is, unlike leather gloves, when a Kevlar
> glove gets hot and you remove the heat source, the glove gets cold
> quickly.

Sounds like what I need. I've actually raised blisters through a
gauntleted workglove doing hot carving on faces and gargoyles. My
solution has been a light cotton workglove. I slather contact cement
over the affected area -- mostly the back of the forefinger and thumb
-- and apply aluminum foil. Of course the foil cracks and tears, so I
a[ply multiple layers, flexing and cracking each one before the next
is applied. The result is ugly, clunky and not very durable but it
does refelct most of the heat and allows pretty good dexterity.

Gotta call Carolina Glove. I jes' only need lefties anyhow. Thanks to
Mark and whoever brought this up for the tip.

- Mike

---

From: Tom Vincent <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:55:00 -0600 (CST)

In regards Kevlar gloves, I once had a student who could not get the hang
of tongs. Some welder told him about Kevlar gloves and he wore his pair
for the final 5 weeks of class. Made the hair on my neck stand up to see
him fishing around the fire with those gloves, grabbing 700-900 degree
metal. He finally burned them out about the end of class

On the subject of classes, we have begun teaching 11-14 year old men and
women blacksmithing in short three week courses through a local museum.
Has any one taught kids this young on a regular basis? We would like to
get more ideas about what kind of projects were successful, and which
weren't, as this has never been done here. We are limited to the shop
equipment we can use, only what can be stored at neighborhood centers,
with pretty much no power supply. Any advice would be appreciated, Thanks,
Tom

---

From: George Montee <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:23:52 -0800

I know people out there have the answer I'm looking for. I've been doing 
blacksmith welds with 20 mule team Borax. It's okay I guess. A local 
welding place has "Anti-Borax Flux". Is that any better or easier to use? 
It sounds like it would do exactly opposite of what you would want it to 
do.
Thanks in advance,
George

---

From: [email-masked] (Noller, Joyce)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 18:35:41 -0900

> It sounds like it would do exactly opposite of what you would want it to

  I've used Antiborax brazing flux for forge welding with great success
but sometimes it leaves a hard black deposit on the iron that's tough to
get off.
Larry Noller

---

From: Bill Wyant <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 07:56:57 -0500

> It sounds like it would do exactly opposite of what you would want it to

George, Anti-Borax flux was made here in town years ago, but no longer.
Apparently everyone around the country still has loads of it though. It
is basically anhydrous borax (the water's out of it so it doesn't "snow"
when you apply it to a hot piece). In the days it was made you didn't
have to list the ingredients on the side of the can, so mine doesn't say
what's in it, so I don't know wether or not it has any other things
besides borax in it. I have used it for forge welding and for welding
nickel damscus, and I like it. It is very small "crystals" and it just
takes a tiny amount to really "wet" the piece before welding. I have
also used 20 mule team (still have same box I bought 7 years ago) borax,
and it "snows" when you apply it, minorly annoying.

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:02:10 -0500

On Dec 15,  5:23pm, George Montee wrote:
> Subject: Anti-Borax flux

We had a discussion of fluxes this summer. I've attached a file of the stuff
discussed.

Mark

Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, lest ye deceive yourselves.
James 1:22
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 00:53:28 EDT
From: Michael Spencer <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

> I have read, but not tried myself, that you can heat laundry borax
> over an ordinary stove and drive off the water.

I make anhydrous borax by melting the ordinary, hydrated kind in a
home-made iron ladle in the forge fire. I don't know the temp but it
glows dull red in a dark room when it's hot enough to pour.

Poured out into an iron bowl or onto a steel slab, it hardens up into
a glassy black-green blob that can be ground as fine as you like with
whatever you've got -- I use an ad hoc steel mortar and pestle. Makes
a slightly greenish powder that doesn't foam when used as a flux.

- Mike

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:22:14 -0800
From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

Dave B wrote:
> 
> At 22:36 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 08:15 PM 6/6/96 -0400, David C. Hufford wrote:
> >
> >>As for forge welding flux, I've used anhydrous borax.  The 20 Mule Team
> >>laundry borax is hydrated and "foams" when applied to hot iron due to
> >>release of water; anhydrous will not.  Anhydrous is available from
> >>chemical supply companies, but more expensive than the grocery store
> >>stuff.
> >>
> >>D.C. Hufford
> >>
> >>
> >I have read, but not tried myself, that you can heat laundry borax over an
> >ordinary stove and drive off the water.  I think you have to grind up the
> >resulting mass.  I'll look  it up if anyone's really interested.
> >
> >Bruce Freeman
> >
> >
> >
> I've done this.  What you end up with is a fluffy powder.  There may be some
> clinging together, but grinding isn't necessary, unless you cook it to hot
> and turn it into glass.
> 
> Dave B

I don't know about borax specifically but 240f is the standard 
temperature used in the materials lab to drive off hygroscopic moisture 
in virtually all tested materials. A toaster oven should work fine for 
producing small batches. As with any anhydrous material it absorbs any 
available moisture so has a limited shelf life, keeping it in the 
welding rod dryer should extend the shelf life.

Another thing I heard a guy talking about was keeping a pot of borax 
molten in the forge while welding. I don't know about this, I just 
caught the tail end of the conversation and didn't get to talk to him. 
Might work though.

	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:10:01 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Bill Fiorini)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: L.L. $ B. Co. Anvle and welding flux

>I have two questions for the experts out there.  Has anyone heard of a cast
>steel anvel marked L.L. & B. Co.?
>     Second, I would like to hear some discussion on the kinds of flux
>people use for forge welding.  I have heard of borax and borax + sand, also
>borax + sand and iron filings.  I have been forging for about two years and
>getting consistantly good forge welds seems to be a problem.  I know alot of
>it probably has to do with experience and practice but I wanted to hear some
>comments on the process particularly the use of flux.  Chris Hubbard,
>Dekalb, IL 60115

Chris,
I have been using my own formula for the several years since Crescent Weld
was screwed up by the new manufacturer.  I weld daily on Pattern-Welded
Steel of a variety of alloys and carbon contents.  My formula is 4 parts
borax / 1 part boric acid powder or crystal.  The boric acid can be
purchased locally at any pharmacy or you can order in bulk from a chemical
supply.
Bill Fiorini

Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Forge welding flux

Chris:

Don't suppose that L.L & B could be L.L. Bean?  They have just about 
everything else, why not anvils?  (For the slower smiths, the preceding
was a joke - of sorts.)

As for forge welding flux, I've used anhydrous borax.  The 20 Mule Team 
laundry borax is hydrated and "foams" when applied to hot iron due to 
release of water; anhydrous will not.  Anhydrous is available from 
chemical supply companies, but more expensive than the grocery store 
stuff.  Among commercial fluxes, I've had very good results with Crecent 
Forge Compound (Superior Flux & Mfg Co).  Crescent is what I use on a 
regular basis.  Don Ferdinand of Wyvern Industries sells a flux called 
Draconite which is touted as formulated for use as a liquid for welding 
pattern-welded steel, but will work in the powder form for regular forge 
welding.

D.C. Hufford

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:47:49 -0500
From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

At 23:22 6/6/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Dave B wrote:
>> 
>> At 22:36 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> >At 08:15 PM 6/6/96 -0400, David C. Hufford wrote:
>> >
>> >>As for forge welding flux, I've used anhydrous borax.  The 20 Mule Team
>> >>laundry borax is hydrated and "foams" when applied to hot iron due to
>> >>release of water; anhydrous will not.  Anhydrous is available from
>> >>chemical supply companies, but more expensive than the grocery store
>> >>stuff.
>> >>
>> >>D.C. Hufford
>> >>
>> >>
>> >I have read, but not tried myself, that you can heat laundry borax over an
>> >ordinary stove and drive off the water.  I think you have to grind up the
>> >resulting mass.  I'll look  it up if anyone's really interested.
>> >
>> >Bruce Freeman
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I've done this.  What you end up with is a fluffy powder.  There may be some
>> clinging together, but grinding isn't necessary, unless you cook it to hot
>> and turn it into glass.
>> 
>> Dave B
>
>I don't know about borax specifically but 240f is the standard 
>temperature used in the materials lab to drive off hygroscopic moisture 
>in virtually all tested materials. A toaster oven should work fine for 
>producing small batches. As with any anhydrous material it absorbs any 
>available moisture so has a limited shelf life, keeping it in the 
>welding rod dryer should extend the shelf life.
>
>Another thing I heard a guy talking about was keeping a pot of borax 
>molten in the forge while welding. I don't know about this, I just 
>caught the tail end of the conversation and didn't get to talk to him. 
>Might work though.
>
>	Frosty
>-- 
>If it ain't forged
>It ain't real
>wrought iron is
>The FROSTWORKS
>
>

Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:55:28 -0500
From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: L.L. $ B. Co. Anvle and welding flux

chris Hubbard wrote:
> 
> I have two questions for the experts out there.  Has anyone heard of a cast
> steel anvel marked L.L. & B. Co.?
>      Second, I would like to hear some discussion on the kinds of flux
> people use for forge welding.  I have heard of borax and borax + sand, also
> borax + sand and iron filings.  I have been forging for about two years and
> getting consistantly good forge welds seems to be a problem.  I know alot of
> it probably has to do with experience and practice but I wanted to hear some
> comments on the process particularly the use of flux.  Chris Hubbard,
> Dekalb, IL 60115

If I really want it to weld I use EZ Weld. The new stuff available 
from Centaur Forge works. I have less success with 20 Mule team Borax 
but I still use it especially with round stock as I have much success 
welding round. To test your skill try welding with no flux. I took a 
Bob Patrick welding class once and that was the first thing we did. 
Don't think anyone missed this weld, think Bob carries some magic with 
him as he forge welds anything, even after he has dropped it twice!

Also just for fun try Kenny Valdejo's "Nature's own" flux, ground up 
mud dauber nests. Just make sure the residents are done with it first.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri
Foolish consistencies are the hobgoblins of little minds

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:38:01 -0500
From: "K. E. Valdejo" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

At 09:46 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Some people think that borax fumes are poisonous.
>Can some one who knows their chemistry verify this?
>Clay
>
Clay  I can't quote chapter and verse but I have read in several books that
the fumes are toxic. How much, over how long a period, I have never read.
Supposedly, that was the advantage of EZ Weld over plain old borax, hence,
Anti-Borax. 
Kenny Valdejo
Bittersweet Forge
Millstadt, IL
[email-masked]
There has been an alarming increase in things that I know absolutely nothing
about!

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:33:30 -0400
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

To All,
The water in borax is chemically bound. Heating to 240*f will drive off water
from hydroscopic materials but it is not hot enough to make the compound
decompose.

Hochewa

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:26:37 -0400
From: "Bruce M. Freeman" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

At 09:46 PM 6/7/96 -0400, Clay Spencer wrote:
>Some people think that borax fumes are poisonous.
>Can some one who knows their chemistry verify this?
>Clay
>
>

I'm a chemist, not a toxicologist, so take what I say accordingly.  My
question is whether in ordinary use (i.e., as a flux) one would get enough
exposure to "boric acid" to worry about it.  Someone  has pointed out that
it is in Visine, so there must be some low level that is non toxic.  

Unfortunately I left my Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook at work.  In it
is information on volatility vs. temperature.  Question:  What is the vapor
pressure of boric acid or its decompsition product at red heat?  If anyone
knows the answer, let him post it.  If anyone wants me to estimate it (very
roughly, at best), email me directly at:

[email-masked]

Bruce Freeman

Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:17:38 -0400
From: "Bruce M. Freeman" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: L.L. $ B. Co. Anvle and welding flux

At 06:07 PM 6/7/96 -0500, Tom Vincent wrote:
>Boric acid is fairly toxic. Should one be concerned re: the fumes? Tom
>

I'm not going to attempt to answer that question, merely to point out one
source of further information.  If you can use gophers, here's an address
for you:

gopher://gopher.chem.utah.edu:70/11/MSDS

>From there you can easily find your way to boric acid.  Or go directly:

gopher://gopher.chem.utah.edu:70/00/MSDS/B/BORIC%20ACID

Below is one small piece of the MSDS (material safety data sheet).  This is
not the full information.

Hope this  helps,

Bruce Freeman

================================================================================

(BORIC ACID)

   5 - HEALTH HAZARD DATA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOXICITY:   LD50 (ORAL-RAT)(MG/KG)          -  2660
            LD50 (SCU-RAT)(MG/KG)           -  1400
            LD50 (IV-RAT) (MG/KG)           -  1330

CARCINOGENICITY:  NTP: NO     IARC: NO     Z LIST: NO     OSHA REG: NO

EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE
  INGESTION IS HARMFUL AND MAY BE FATAL.
  DUST INHALATION MAY CAUSE TIGHTNESS AND PAIN IN CHEST, COUGHING, AND
  DIFFICULTY IN BREATHING.
  CONTACT WITH SKIN OR EYES MAY CAUSE IRRITATION.
  PROLONGED EXPOSURE MAY CAUSE DERMATITIS.
  INGESTION MAY CAUSE NAUSEA, VOMITING, HEADACHES, DIZZINESS,
  GASTROINTESTINAL IRRITATION.
  CHRONIC EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE MAY INCLUDE KIDNEY AND/OR LIVER DAMAGE.

TARGET ORGANS
  NONE IDENTIFIED

MEDICAL CONDITIONS GENERALLY AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE
  DAMAGED SKIN

ROUTES OF ENTRY
  INGESTION, INHALATION, SKIN CONTACT, EYE CONTACT

Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 09:14:57 -0700
From: [email-masked] (jeramo)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Boric acid toxicity (was: L.L. $ B. Co...)

>> Check your visine bottle, boric is an ingredient, you'll have to
>> prove toxicity to me.

I decided to try boric acid/a. borax mix.  Went down to the pharmacy.  The
pharmacist said the health risk was mostly from ingestion and that he
doubted that inhalation was a real problem.  I think I'll be careful about
inhalation anyway.

Ray Coon
Damascus, OR

Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:40:45 -0700
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Boric acid toxicity (was: L.L. $ B. Co...)

I too was told the hazard of borax as flux was due to inhalation, much 
like the hazard of asbestos.  Also, I think Boric Acid, and Borax are 
different animals.  Borax is mined, as a mineral, but I don't know for 
sure.  We usually flux with borax first, then with ez weld or crescent.  
The molten borax helps keep the heavier duty stuff attached to the iron, 
where it belongs, we also found out you can use much less ez weld or 
crescent and get fine results.  I use borax close to the chimney opening 
so the draft will suck the fine floating particles up and out of my shop.

Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:47:46 -0400
From: [email-masked]
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

To All,
Melting it into a glass is the best way to make sure that the water is gone.
Use an iron ladle or pot. All you need is a dull red heat. Then pour it out
onto an iron or steel plate. This makes the grinding part a lot easier. Keep
in a sealed bottle or can or it will pick up the water again.

Hochewa

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:12:03 +0000
From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Forge welding flux

> Another ingredient often mixed with borax for use as forge welding flux 
> is sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride).  Anyone had experience with the 
> borax/ammonium chloride mixture?  What advantage does the ammonium 
> chloride provide?
> 

Various acids and bases, or their salts, are added to fluxes to help 
them "clean" the metal as they metal and flow.  This is one such 
case.

Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:59:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Vincent <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Boric acid toxicity (was: L.L. $ B. Co...)

Yes, Borax and Boric Acid are two fifferent animals. Actually, in High 
Alloy number 17 the ingredients are borax, boric acid, sodium chloride 
(salt!) and sodium carbonate (not to be confused with baking soda). 
Actually, I got my idea that boric acid might be a little toxic from the 
Merck Index (not to be confused with the Merck manual) where, apart from 
describing such things as circulatory collapse, tachycardia, cyanosis, 
delirium, convulsions and coma. Death in infants at less than 5g and so 
on, it also mentios that it is used in hardening steel. Tom

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996 [email-masked] wrote:

> I too was told the hazard of borax as flux was due to inhalation, much 
> like the hazard of asbestos.  Also, I think Boric Acid, and Borax are 
> different animals.  Borax is mined, as a mineral, but I don't know for 
> sure.  We usually flux with borax first, then with ez weld or crescent.  
> The molten borax helps keep the heavier duty stuff attached to the iron, 
> where it belongs, we also found out you can use much less ez weld or 
> crescent and get fine results.  I use borax close to the chimney opening 
> so the draft will suck the fine floating particles up and out of my shop.
> 

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 07:05:07 -0500
From: [email-masked] (Bill Fiorini)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Flux

>Awhile back, during the thread on fluxes for forge welding, someone
>mentioned using a mixture of borax (sodium tetraborate) and boric acid.
>Was the mixture 4 parts borax to 1 part boric acid, or some other
>proportion?  I thought I had saved the post, but can't find it.
>
>D.C. Hufford
You got it right.
Bill

Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 18:35:41 -0900
From: [email-masked] (Noller, Joyce)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Anti-Borax flux

---

From: Ed Kreyling <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:48:16 -0600

Noller, Joyce wrote:

> but sometimes it leaves a hard black deposit on the iron that's tough to

Is there a way to keep regular 20muleteam borax from foamming up so
badly when welding?

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:26:01 -0500

> Is there a way to keep regular 20muleteam borax from foamming up so

I've never seen this as a problem. Perhaps you are fluxing at too hot 
a temperature? I do it at red heat.

My problem comes weeks or months after the project is completed when 
the white stuff starts growing out of the weld. I learned that if you 
soak your piece in water overnight after it is finished the borax will 
go away and this won't happen.
-- 
Jim McCarty
[email-masked]
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:06:38 -0500

> go away and this won't happen.

I, too, have had the problem of "the white stuff". I talked with Bob Patrick
who said to use phosphoric acid solution to get rid of borax residue and
welding scale. I use about a 10% solution and soak the stuff for 30 minutes to
an hour. Seems to work well.

Mark

---

From: "Roger W. Schmitt" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:01:39 -0500

I got lucky today, I think, and acquired a used No. 2 Hossfeld bender
mounted on a cabinet. Unfortunatly little or no tooling/dies came with it.
Does anyone know of a source of used dies etc.? Will the dies/tooling for
the benders made by American Bending Inc. work with the No. 2? Has anyone
made or seen articles on how to make your own dies for this bender? Any
help, suggestions, ideas etc. will be greatly appreciated.

Take care,

Roger W. Schmitt
Alliance, OH

---

From: Fulwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 23:07:55 -0800

> help, suggestions, ideas etc. will be greatly appreciated.

Roger, 
 One of our members had one for sale a while back with a bunch of dies if 
my feeble ol' memory serves me correctly. This fella has a great tool 
collection. He likely has some around or knows where to find them. He is:
Langston,Randy.............404-241-1212 (Thats an Atlanta, Georgia area 
number)
-- 
Donnie Fulwood Mailto:[email-masked] 
Editor Ocmulgee Blacksmith Guild Chapter of ABANA Newsletter

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 10:05:25 -0500

> help, suggestions, ideas etc. will be greatly appreciated.

Roger,
Find someone who has one and use their dies as patterns to turn new ones 
on a metal lathe. As you will find out, the dies cost a bundle and 
really run the cost of the machine up. dies for the No.1 bender start at 
$30 each and keep going, usually you need two or three dies for each 
procedure.
-- 
Jim McCarty
[email-masked]
Father Helias Forge
Taos, Missouri
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Anvil's Ring
Blacksmiths Association of Missouri Newsletter

Someone's poisoned the waterhole
--Woody, Toy Story

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:24:42 -0500

Roger,

Get hold of the user's/owner's manual for your bender if you don't have one.
Hossfeld will send you one for less than $10.00. Try to get the current price
list, too.

Hossfeld Mfg. Co.
P.O.Box 557
Winona, MN 55987
507-452-2182
507-454-1194 fax

Mark