Subject: Re: pricing and the Antitrust Laws

From: Clyde Wynia <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:43:34 -0600

At 01:16 PM 3/23/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I hate to throw a wet towel on the "pricing" chat, but most countries
>including the U.S., have very strict laws and matching penalties for what
>could be considered as any attempt to fix prices, yes even at our level of
>business.  The Robinson-Patman Act, the Clayton Act, and the Sherman Act are
>designed to preserve "free and unfettered competition" as the rule of trade.
> This means that companies (unlike OPEC) can't discuss pricing with each
>other or they will be in violation of these laws even if they don't actually
>conspire to fix prices of  products.  As an example, if a smith whose
>business is making iron fence read an earlier e-mail post on what another
>smith in his area charges for fencing, and increased his price to that
>amount, and a customer found out, and complained that they had been harmed by
>this price fixing both smiths would go to jail.  The fine could be as much as
>$100,000 and three years in prison. I'm not sure how the "we're just artists"
>would play, but why risk it.   
>Please be careful what you put in print regarding pricing. 
>Mike Schermerhorn 

C'mon Mike. No one is going to jail or pay a fine for discussing priceing.
Our jails would be full and they would have to make every attorney a DA to
police it. I'm on several lists and all discuss pricing. Doctors do,
attorneys do, carpenters do. The feds are overworked with real problems and
arn't going to give some discusion on a list like this a second thought

---

From: "Harold E. McKinney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 14:00:02 -0500

You get in trouble when you start discussing pricing specific objects.  It's pretty easy to spot price-fixing and I haven't seen any of that sort of stuff going on.  As long as you talk in an educational or generic vein, I don't see a problem, only a benefit. 

Of course you can always be sued.  Our County Attorney put it this way once to me, "You can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy; the question is, 'can you collect?'".

Mac Esq.

----------

---

From: "Bruce M. Freeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 19:26:41 -0500

>Please be careful what you put in print regarding pricing. 

Mike, and others,
        It seems to me that the above worry is a perfect example of the
chilling effect of laws upon the citizenry.  In my humble, non-lawyer's
opinion, there is NO WAY that the discussions in this forum on pricing could
be construed as price-fixing, or anticompetitive in any way.  Consider the
following:  (1) We're not dealing here with the prices of any sort of
commodity items, but rather are dealing with the question of pricing items
that would typically be made CUSTOM for the customer. (2) The issue at hand
is really a question of wages, not prices.  If fixing wages is in the same
class as fixing prices, why aren't all union leaders in jail?  It is
perfectly legitimate to see to it that your efforts are fairly compensated,
and it had better remain so. 
        If anyone hears of a real example of a prosecution based upon such
flimsy "conspiracy" as cited above, we'd damned well better unite to
exonerate the smiths involved, lest we lose the freedoms we value so much in
this society.
        Remember:  Michael Millikan is already out of jail and on parole.
Do any of us even have a CHANCE to commit crimes on the level that he did?
        It is a crime to fix prices though.  Don't do it.  If a customer
tells you he had an estimate from another smith for some railing, DON'T CALL
that smith to find out what the estimate was, or to agree not to charge less
than such-and-such (even though this probably happens every day in some
businesses.)

        Bruce

---

From: [email-masked] (Fred Clark)
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:37:15 -0500

>Please be careful what you put in print regarding pricing.

Seems to me that this would be a tough one to prosecuteŠwhat's to keep
anyone from varying their prices to suit the market? I've noticed gas
station prices in our neighborhood that match to the penny, but if you go
across town it might be a nickel cheaper. To me, this is pretty obvious
"price fixing".

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:31:18 -0500

In a message dated 96-03-23 14:08:38 EST, you write:

>you start discussing pricing specific objects.  It's pretty easy to spot
>price-fixing and I haven't seen any of that sort of stuff going on.  As long
>as you talk in an educational or generic vein, I don't see a problem, only a
>benefit. 
>
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:45:10 -0500

Okay, okay, I may have jumped to the conclusion that the way the "pricing"
thread was going that we could be headed for potential trouble.  The one
"esquire" that commented seems to think that it doesn't apply to us, and I am
relieved.  It did seem that the direction was ultimately leading to, "so why
don't we ALL charge $100/Hr. plus materials and let the consumer select based
solely on artistic preference. 
Maybe the lawyer that was kind enough to respond would again comment on this.
Sorry if I seemed like an alarmist, but my 30 plus years in the specialty
steel business has made me very cautious in this regard.
Mike Schermerhorn

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 02:10:54 -0500

I for one just dont have any sympathy at all for the lawyers that that live
off preaching this type of garbage..     doctors openly charge more for
emergency room care, lawyers all have thier retainers   5k or 10k just to
start.   mybe the concept of a $ 30  hr. shop rate is price fixing??    Not
in this lifetime.   If you like, tell all your customers you want $100 per
 hr  then give um my # .  after the hurricains and tornatoes and floods we
are told not to "gouge" our prices.   Maybe the lawyers should show us how
well they contain cost in a divorce case.  Or the doctors could give
emergency care at the same rate as day care in their offices.  Classic
examples of price fixing.  Any proffessional group that has been given
"protected " status from others doing the same work without belonging to that
professions organization has gone from outragous to down right beyond belief
in the rates they charge.  Engineers and architechs are just as guilty. How
many permit fees are used to fund local goverment. If the unions want to
stand for something maybe they should approach this problem so that their
members can afford the services of the so called professionals. While im
venting this , i think all fines imposed by any court for any reason should
go to pay the principle on the national debt.
No more cops taking radar.  Maybe they would have time to stop a serios crime
so that we would feel safe instead of thinking of law enforcement as road
obstacles. All required insurance is organized legal raqueteering.  Insurance
can only exist if payments are greater than damages. Guess who keeps the
difference ?   Its not the one who pays !!
I dont know what you have been doing in the metal industry for thirty years
but i bet you know how much your competitors are charging and price
accordingly weather you admit it or not.  Thats the worst part of this whole
( for lack of better word ) conspiracy by the 
(also for lack of a better word ) establishment.  To comply with the law we
must all keep our mouths shut and do what we must do without admiting that we
cannot possibly be honest and not price according to what the situation
allows.  What about affirmative action ? What kind of fixing is that.  I know
that if you favor it that makes you a racist.
It is not important which race you discriminate against.  If you discriminate
based on race you are a racist. Instead of fixing prices lets have some
reasonable ideas about solving any of these problems for ourselves, our
families, our companies, our employees, ouy nieghbors, and yes even our
competitors and customers.

  How about this ?   No political contrbutions at all ?   Every person who is
Legally signed up as a candidate for an office gets one paragragh in a single
news letter issued to all who come to the polls to vote free of charge and
with no advertizing.  How to pay for this ?   Maybe with the dollars that
dont reduce our tax on the 1040 .

 I know that im venting real good here and not talking to much about art.
  but think these issues are the ones that shape what will be the world that
shapes us our shop and our work.  I keep hearing a single word excuse placed
on anything that remotely resembles good common sense and may acually do any
good,   its SIMPLISTIC  
What does that mean  ?    To me it means "  not full of things that benifit
one group or another."     If you read all of this   I should probly
apologize because im sure i said something to anger or offend just about
every one.
                                                                       OK
  IM SORRY FOR BEING HONEST ABOUT MY OPNIONS 

If you have any other good ideas to add to this list please send um to me!
I am a good listener when i here common sense at its best!

                          ps     I havn't seen even one price on a specific
product being sold by a member of this list.   Only prices that suppliers
charge for things.

james          LIFE IS UNCERTAIN        EAT DESERT FIRST!!

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:34:28 -0500

Politically speaking, I agree, and AMEN !  Now lets get back to blacksmithing
and having fun enjoying our reason for subscribeing to THE FORGE.

---

From: Russell McCrackin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:57:45 -0800

At 02:10 AM 3/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>(main message deleted)
Hi James.  I agree with the above.  But there is a "better" way of thinking
about it.

  EAT DESERT FIRST - TO BE SURE YOU HAVE ROOM - (AND GET MORE THAN YOUR SHARE)

Rusty at Rusty Forge

----
 [email-masked]