Subject: Re: Women Blacksmiths

From: "Marrin T. Fleet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:30:33 CST6CDT

In reply to the below, I can think of at least three working today, although I 
don't remember the particulars of all of them.

1) There is Elizibeth Brim, now at Penlands in North Carolina.  
2)There is Alice (I don't remember her last name), who is now Japh Howard's 
partner in Washington State.  Alice was previously the assistant to 
Jerry cougan, at the center for Applilatchian Crafts, near 
Smithville, Tennessee.  
3) Roberta Elliot, who operates The Velvet Hammer, I think in 
Colombia, Missouri.  If not Colombia, then some other town close.
4) There are other women, though probably not working as professional 
smiths, who have taken the blacksmithing course at the National 
Ornamental Metals Museum, here in Memphis.  I would bet there are 
other female blacksmithing students out there at other schools, as 
well.
All three of these ladies mentioned, by the way, are LADIES!  All three are 
attractive, and none matches the implied description you gave!  
While all three of these are wotking today, I would bet that this 
subject is of interest to all three!  If there were any female 
smith's of yore, I would bet that one of them might have a reference. 
(Elizibeth Brim is perhaps the most scholarly of the three.)

 If I were going to look at an area other than the frontier or 
battlefield support for a crisis-motivated woman, I would look at the 
Shakers.  After all, it was a Shaker woman who was one of the 
independent inventors of the circular sawmill.  That implies at least 
a working knowledge of mechanics and other things old smiths 
concerned themselves with! 

Thanks for letting me put my two cent's worth in!

Marrin Fleet

> Date:          Tue, 28 May 1996 09:07:59 -0400
> From:          "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
> Subject:       Re: Women Blacksmiths
> To:            [email-masked]
> Reply-to:      [email-masked]

> On May 28,  7:03am, Dave B wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Women Blacksmiths
> > At 21:53 5/27/96 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Hi all...we're the Editors of The Rivet, which is the newsletter of the
> > >Western Canadian Blacksmiths Guild and we received a query from one of
> > >our members as follows:
> > >
> > >"...Do you have any information on women blacksmiths?  I want to volunteer
> > >with a gentleman at in the old Forge at Fort Edmonton Park this summer
> > >but the volunteer co-ordinator said I couldn't because I was a woman...No
> > >kidding!!!  She wasn't sure if women did such things back in those
> > >days...from what I know, wives and daughters did whatever was required to
> > >keep the business going..but she won't just take my word for it, so I
> > >need some hard facts on blacksmithing and women."
> > >
> > >Anybody got anything to quote from that we can pass on to help her out?
> > >
> > >Thanks in advance for your help.  This may not be of interest to all so
> > >you  can  e-mail us directly if you like instead of listing to the forge.
> > >
> > >
> > >Rick and Joan Dixon
> > >Dixon Forge
> > >G.S. 303, Box 18, R.R. #3
> > >Saskatoon, Sask.
> > >S7K 3J6
> > >
> > >(306)931-0813
> > >
> > >
> > A good question.  I have a similar predicament at the Historical Park where
> > I 'smith (Heritage Hill Park, Green Bay, WI).  There is a young woman with
> > similar interests, and I think she would be good at it.  But the director of
> > interpretation says you wouldn't find a woman working in a blacksmith's
> > shop.  I tell her, Women weren't teamsters either, but I wouldn't want to
> > tell that to Calamity Jane.
> >
> > Please post to the group, or copy me on any information in this direction.
> > Reference sources would be a great help.
> >
> > Dave B
> 
> As far as I have been able to find out (all of this info was anecdotal), there
> were very few female blacksmiths prior to WW I. When child labor laws were
> non-existent and eight-year olds were apprenticed to learn a trade, the bulk of
> the blacksmiths were male. The only exceptions may have been (1) the blacksmith
> had a daughter who was interested (especially if the blacksmith had no sons),
> or (2) A good friend of the blacksmith had a daughter who hung around the
> forge. In any case, female blacksmiths were rare.
> 
> The Furnace Town Historic site attempts to display life 1825 to 1850 when the
> blast furnace was working. We do not discourage anyone from demonstrating
> because we've found it difficult to find persons willing to demonstrate. It's
> good that you have enough demonstrators to not be in this sort of bind.
> 
> I'll ask the museum curator for references of female blacksmiths. When or if I
> get them, I'll post to the server.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Mark E. Williams
> Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
> NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
> Wallops Island, VA 23337
> 804-824-1744
> [email-masked]
> 
> I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.
> Grouch Marx

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From: [email-masked] (Gene Olson and Chris Wilson)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:08:00 -0400 (EDT)

>In a book on blacksmithing history in the southern part of Sweden there's a
>chapter on smed-Olga, a professional woman blacksmith. I guess she's still
>alive but retired by now. So on this side of the Atlantic they exist.
>
>An other example: the daughter of a very talented blacksmith a bit north of
>where I live is currently (last I heard, but may be ready by now) taking an
>education in art and blacksmithing. I've seen her at a demo with her dad, and
>some of the stuff she had at an exposition, including a wedding dress she'd
>forged, and a bed she'd made as a journeyman piece.
>Just for the record: this is a slender and pretty girl that would look great
>in bathing suit, not like smed-Olga, who probably weighed double the weight
>of this girl... :)

Well, I still hope to find the guy's card but we had an anthropologist from
the U of M speak at a meeting once. His research appeared put women on the
job smelting iron at the beginning of the iron age in central europe.

I'll pass along the address if I can ever find the $#&* card.

Gene

 The Studios of Gene Olson and Chris Wilson
   Working in Metals, Stone, Mixed Media
    URL: http://www.cris.com/~mettlewk/

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From: [email-masked] (W Thomas Powers)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:13:47 -0400

I don't know about your time period/place; but I can provide some
information on women doing blacksmithing in medieval times.

Thomas; AKA wilelm the smith
Columbus, OH

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From: "daryl (d.a.) bender" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:52:00 -0400 [/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars520.b.719:28.04.96.14.52.53]

If I were a woman (Oooo boy I can see the comments now) I would have fun 
with it and say I was the blacksmith's wife and the silly bugger took 
off fishin' and left no one to tend the "store". 8^) I think most people 
would chuckle then move in to see what it was you were making. 

I'm surprised anybody has a problem with it. Now an air hammer....that 
would be a problem. 

Daryl

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From: "Marrin T. Fleet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:12:19 CST6CDT

> job smelting iron at the beginning of the iron age in central europe.

One of the primary sources about midaeval smelting, etc., that 
survives is "De Re Metalica" by Georgius Agricola, from about 1550,
toward the end or just outside the midaeval period.  Agricola 
discusses the history and development of metal smelting, which means 
he is talking about the midaeval period. 
  
Many metropolitan public libraries or college libraries have copies.  
Unfortunately, the jobs mentioned as performed by "women and 
boys" are the menial, unskilled tasks of cleaning and concentrating 
ore, and not the relatively skilled job of the smelter. 

Thanks ... Marrin Fleet
The University of Memphis
(also known as the U of M)

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From: "Marrin T. Fleet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:23:21 CST6CDT

> Date:          Tue, 28 May 1996 09:53:22 -0500
> From:          [email-masked] (Bill Fiorini)

> 
> ( all the other stuff snipped)   >All three of these ladies mentioned, by
> the way, are LADIES!  All three are
> ----Although the info is helpful, I don't think we need to include a female
> blacksmiths ladylike, attractive, or  ugly  qualities in a description of
> their capabilities.     Unless you want to include a description of those
> qualities for both male and female smiths.
> -kirsten skiles ( on fiorini's computer)
> 

I was responding to the original post, which I felt had some 
negative elements of this type.  I agree.  Sorry to offend.

Say Hi to Bill.  He taught a class I took at NOMM here in Memphis.

Thanks ... Marrin

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From: [email-masked] (Dan Hughes)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:52:05 -0400

>-kirsten skiles ( on fiorini's computer)

I agree with that!

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From: Cynthia Hull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:46:02 -0500 (CDT)

>>-kirsten skiles ( on fiorini's computer)

I think it's ok.  It breaks a sterotype image of a blacksmith being a
big*burly*butch kind of GUY, a message which might discourage others with a
more delicate constitution from exploring the media.  It's ok to be
beautiful*feminine and a blacksmith.  Anyway.... it didn't offend me.

Cynthia Hull

---

From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:52:29 -0500

>-kirsten skiles ( on fiorini's computer)
I'm still trying to figure out "What description?".  I mentioned Calamity
Jane as an example of a female in a typically 'male' job.  Any 'description'
here is solely at the reader's discretion.

If anyone wishes to assume that I was making a physical descriptive, go
ahead.  But, please note that I made no such comparisson, nor was one intended.

End of discussion.
Dave B

---

From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:55:01 -0500

>Thomas; AKA wilelm the smith

'twould be interesting to learn of this.  However, I work in Wisconsin, 1871.

Dave B

---

From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:59:12 -0500

>>-kirsten skiles ( on fiorini's computer)
Why is it that because I mention Calamity Jane I get taken to task for
disparaging women.  Did my post to this group include something that I
didn't write?

Dave B

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From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:02:41 -0500

>At 12:52 PM 5/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
SNIP
>. . .It's ok to be
Thank you, Cynthia, for realizing that I was looking for a way to include a
woman in my shop, not trying to knock them.

Dave B

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From: [email-masked] (fred clark)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:38:20 -0400

>woman in my shop, not trying to knock them.

If I'm not mistaken, there was a lady blacksmith who was president of ABANA
some time back...was it Dorothy Steigler? I remember seeing pictures of
some of her work and she was a pro.

Fred

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From: [email-masked] (Thomas Boudreau)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:26:16 -0300 (ADT)

>days...

   Hello Rick and Joan:

 I think we all agree, women did their share in all types of work, including
smithing. A little research would verify that. Although I now, only teach
boys in our historic park, (1700's) shop, I can see girls joining soon, and
if left to me, they will be welcomed! Besides the fact they did the
work...this is the 90's, if you want to try it, go for it!!
 
  We are training girls, (ladies) in our military for the first time this
year and have no doubt that they can do it. Good luck!!  :o)

«»Thomas B.
«»N.S. Can.
«»[email-masked]
«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»

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From: "Bruce M. Freeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:28:33 -0400

>G.S. 303, Box 18, R.R. #3

Well, it's safe to say there weren't MANY women blacksmiths.  On the other
hand, women certainly made nails, and I've seen photographs of an
Englishwoman chainsmith.  In Renaissance Germany, there was at least one
documented case of a widow running her late husbands shop, but I don't
recall if she worked there hereself.

This issue came up at Allaire Village, NJ.  My wife is an inactive volunteer
there - her other projects just took up too much time for her to remain
active.  I could probably provide more detail, but don't have time now.

Bruce

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:41:53 -0400

Of course I can't find the book, but there is a great book on chainmaking,
period from early 1600's to early 1900's.  It seems that chainmaking was such
grunt work that no self-respecting male blacksmith would do it, so there were
whole towns set up (mostly in England) employing women&children making light
to medium chain.  All hand-forged, forge welded links, etc. Piecework.   Just
about slave labor.  The only chains that men made were the really heavy ones
that needed serious sledging.  The manula chainmaking by women and children
reached its height in the mid 1800's, so that should place it pretty close to
your period.  If I run across the title, I'll repost.

Pete Engle

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 01:47:37 -0400

Rick & Joan...

I guess I'd better throw in two cents worth here too..

I guess I can comiserate with the park brass that want to keep everything in
exact historical perspective.  If they don't they are lying to the public
saying that this was the way things were, when it wasn't.  

I've gone through everything I have and can't find a single reference to a
woman working as a full time smith.  But, you have to remember in Victorian
times women didn't do things like that as a profession-- "publicly"-- (or
anything else for that matter.)  Everything they did publicly (other than
certain stated professions like milliners, baxters, spinsters, etc.) were
done under the aliases of men.  Even women writers either disguised
themselves as written "by a Lady" or took on the pen name of a man.  There
were even documented women soldiers in the Civil War.  All of these dressed
as men. 

Someone addressed the fact that women did all kinds of men's work when the
need arose, and it was certainly true. But these were the exceptions, not the
rule.   In your case, it appears that you have two choices to be historically
correct.  1.  Put on a man's costume and tie your hair back and "interpret" a
man doing the job, or   2. Agree with the brass that there probably weren't
any women smiths there at the time and do something else constructive.
  Either way it appears to be an avoidance-avoidance choice.  Pits!

Good Luck, either way

Kent Reeves  :o)
[email-masked]

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From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 05:48:43 -0500

>your period.  If I run across the title, I'll repost.
Thank you.  Much appreciated.
Dave B

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From: [email-masked] (piesner)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:16:22 -0400 (EDT)

>hi, please send me info on this
Eilleen Yorysh
Forge & Anvil Metal Studio
30 King Street
St. Jacobs, Ontario
N0B 2N0
 (519) 664-3622
fax (519) 664-1828
 e mail address
[email-masked]