Subject: Fly press

From: "D. M. Dickie" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 08:26 PST

Hi Again!

Am really enjoying the discussion on the list, and have learned some things.
This is a great way for smiths to get together, though it would be nice to
be able to see some pictures.  It would be easier to clarify one's thoughts
sometimes by seeing a diagram.  No doubt that will come soon enough, unless
it's already here, and as usual, I just don't know about it!

About 3 or 4 yrs. ago, I had the priveledge of visiting Bill Callaway's shop
in Phoenix where besides seeing some very fine blacksmithing and
fabricating, I got my first look at a fly press.  I have often thought since
that it would be a fun thing to have, but I know I wouldn't be able to find
one anywhere around here, or be able to afford it if I did.  It seems that
most 'smiths prefer the treadle hammer for veining and stamping, but I
wonder if anyone has any thoughts or perhaps even plans for a home built fly
press?  I have only been close to one once, but it seems to me that a small
scale version shouldn't be all that hard to do.  Any thoughts out there?

D. M. (Mike) Dickie
Flatlander Forge

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:06:21 -0500

On Jan 28,  8:26am, D. M. Dickie wrote:
> Subject: Fly press
>-- End of excerpt from D. M. Dickie

I'm not sure where you are located but Jim Bomba had several fly presses for
sale. He is located in North East, MD  Red Pepper Forge, b ut I'm at work and
don't have a phone number.

-- 
Dr. Mark E. Williams

Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
Wallops Island, VA 23337
804-824-1744

[email-masked]

Self-confidence is walking barefoot through a cowpasture at midnight on a moonless night.

---

From: [email-masked] (George Dixon)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:33:11 -0500

Other than heating a threaded rod to remove the plating (dangerous fumes)
does anyone know a good way to remove the plating on bolts and threaded
rods?
Thanks,
George Dixon

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:43:57 -0500

> does anyone know a good way to remove the plating on bolts and threaded

	Have them stripped, which is the inverse process to eletroplating.
	It's a common enough thing and you should be able to have it done
	at any plating shop.

	-Andy V.

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:18:23 -0500

About 18 months ago I was down on the farm and Butthole (that's me best friend)
had to go take the garbage out to the dump.  So I piled into the truck and
off we went.

We got there and dumped the trash and were about to leave then I noticed a
HUGE area of old appliances, so I sniffed around a for a minute or so.  As I
got back into the truck and turned to take a last peek at the pile, I noticed
what looked like a barbeque grill on top of the mountain.  But there was
something different about this grill and I wondered if it could possibly be
an old Champion coal forge.  I was doubtful but said what the hell and walked
over.  Sure enough, it was an old Champion.  After composing myself, I loaded
it into the truck.

Anyhow, it/s been 18 or so months and I've not done anythign with it yet, but
would like to bring it back into working order.  I'm not real familiar with
these contraptions, thought they seem easy enough to figger out, but I would
like to kmnow if there's anything special I need to know about rebuilding one
of these things.  I have a few questions in specific.

The blower works fine, though the bearings seem to be shot.  How much lateral
play is acceptable (seems to be about 1/32 to 1/16 inch).  I can easily turn
new bearings if it is called for.

The forge (fire pot?) is cracked on the bottom and had been repaired via flitch
plate and bolts.  Can/should it be welded or brazed?

I trust the forge must be lined with refractory clay before use?  What about
the grate?

Is there anything else I need to be aware of?  I'd hate to ruin it any further.
I've never worked a coal forge and thought this would be a pretty cool way to
get my feet wet.  Any opinions on this?

Thanks very much.

	-Andy V.

---

From: Ralph Snel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 16:50:36 MET

> new bearings if it is called for.
If it blows fine, and doesn't sound too much, there's no need to fix it.

> plate and bolts.  Can/should it be welded or brazed?
Not if you think it will hold together. Make sure it doesn't crack further.

> I trust the forge must be lined with refractory clay before use?  What about
I am not fimiliar with this brand, but the Swedish one I have works just fine
without a lining. When I get up to welding temperature the bottom gets red
hot after a while, but it works just fine.
The grate will be cooled by the airflow. My forge doesn't have a grate, just
a hole with a metal egg-sized stopper in it. Lower the stoper and blow away...

> get my feet wet.  Any opinions on this?
By all means, give it a try! As I said before, I don't know the brand. I assume
it's foot-powered, belt driven (mine is).
If so, make sure you get a good belt, that won't slip. You want the thing to
go on blowing after you stop tramping, so try to minimize the friction in
all parts. Make sure everything stands stable (rather obvious). The main
problem with the Swedish ones is that the table comes loose from the fire pot,
and the entire fire pot/blower part comes off.
DON'T pour water over the fire when you're ready. This will crack the pot
even more.
Give it a try with charcoal first, or have someone who knows light it up with
coal or cokes for you the first time.

Have fun!

Ralph Snel
[email-masked]
Sweden

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 96 17:34:46 -0700

My recommendation is to buy them unplated. Talk to your local 
     industrial fastener supply.
     McMaster-Carr sells plain steel threaded rod, almost any size you 
     might want, up the twelve feet long. Also Grade 2 Plain Steel Hex Head 
     bolts with hex nuts.
     
     Dan Nibbelink
     RedHawk Forge

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Plated bolts
Author:  Non-HP-owner-theforge ([email-masked]) at 
HP-Boise,mimegw3
Date:    2/8/96 8:33 PM

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 9:06:34 MST

Warren Fasteners not only sells unplated hardware, but they make it.
Their price is significantly cheaper than hardware stores or
industrial supply houses. They are happy to deal with individuals.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 9:23:35 MST

Warren Fasteners again--I forgot to tell you where to contact them!

Their address and phone info is listed in the suppliers section of the
ArtMetal web page. Here it is for those who don't have web:

122.Warren Fasteners and Steel
     201 Morgan Avenue
     Brooklyn, NY 11237
     (718)417-4010
     Maker of UNPLATED (and plated) hardware - nuts, bolts, washers
     Minimum purchase $25, they are happy to sell to individuals.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:19:01 -0500

On Feb 12,  9:06am, Steve Smith wrote:
> Subject: Re: Plated bolts
>-- End of excerpt from Steve Smith

You might try calling
(718)417-4010

Warren Fasteners and Steel, 201 Morgan Avenue, Brooklyn, NY 11237.

-- 
Dr. Mark E. Williams

Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
Wallops Island, VA 23337
804-824-1744

---

From: "D. M. Dickie" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 07:58 PST

To All:

Though it's not strictly related to blacksmithing, I hope it's ok as a
subject for theforge.  I am looking for a source of old-time tinplate and/or
ternplate.  Because of cross-border hassles, I would prefer a domestic
source, if there are any fellow Canadians on the list that could help out,
but I will welcome any info that leads me to some in the US.  

Thanks in advance!
D. M. (Mike) Dickie
Flatlander Forge
Box 85
Pennant, SK
Canada S0N 1X0

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:11:22 -0500

On Feb 22,  7:58am, D. M. Dickie wrote:
> Subject: Tinplate
I went to Thomas Register and found the following Canadian companies. Please
let us know how all this works out.

Western Canadian Screens, Ltd.
New Westminster, BC V3M 5P7 Canada
604-520-3073
 604-522-5949  fax

Western Canadian Edmonton
Edmonton, AB T6E 5L1 Canada
403-469-2800
 403-469-2893  fax

-- 
Dr. Mark E. Williams

Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
Wallops Island, VA 23337
804-824-1744

---

From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 14:05:53 -0500 (EST)

The suggestion for the urban smith to use coke to avoid coal smoke, 
which may perturb the neighbors, is worth considering.  However, I have 
no idea where to look for coke.  Any suggestions for sources, and which 
type(s) are suitable?

David C. Hufford

---

From: Peter Goering <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:20:14 -0700 (MST)

> no idea where to look for coke.  Any suggestions for sources, and which 
This may be a little too Rube Goldberg in nature, but I have often 
wondered if there was a simple way to scrub the exhaust from my stack.  
Maybe CaO in solution in a water curtain, but not a complete 
countercurrent tower setup. 
Something simple to build and maintain.  Then use the CaSO4 for soil 
amendment material.  Although I'm a strong proponent of resource 
exploitation (re: mining, logging and grazing), I still strive to 
minimize my impact. (Good God, this is liable to raise the hackles on a 
few folks, but I'm a product of the West. Oh well, let the flames begin!)

Pete Goering

Earth First!
We'll mine the other planets later.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Frost)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 17:36:04 -0900

> no idea where to look for coke.  Any suggestions for sources, and which

HI all:

We coke our own coal in the forge. We break the coal up and seive it 
-1.5"  +.25", start a fire in the forge and make a pile of about 5gl 
worth, containing the coal with bricks on three sides. Of course it's 
pretty smokey until the pile flares, I poke a hole down through the 
middle to hasten this. Another thing that works is a propane torch 
burning over the pile to burn off the smoke. Steve mentioned a smoke 
catcher I'll try next time I coke up a batch. Burn the pile until the 
smoke starts to abate then use a shovel to cut the pile off even with 
the fire pot and turn it over. The coke oozes like hot asphault and it's 
easy to knock off the green coal and scoop out the coke. Put it out with 
a watering can, rake the un-coked coal in the forge back into a pile, 
add some more and repeat the process. make sure the coke is out and 
store it in plain steel, or plastic drums, galvy will react and 
contaminate the coke for fine work. We break the hot coke up when we 
extinguish it, or it will stay in one big lump and continue to burn in 
the center. We end up with lumps from walnut to grapefruit size. It 
lights easy, caves very well and burns without odor. 

I like to light the forge with rolled cardboard, I tear a strip 3-4" 
wide and a foot or so long, roll it into a tight coil, pile the coke 
around and over it, squirt on a dribble of lighter fluid and light it 
off. I can have forging heat in about 5 min with coke and 15 with coal.

That's my 8 buttons worth,
	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 8:33:45 MST

I have heard (such as Jerry today) and read that coke starts easier
than coal. I have not found this to be true.

I start my fire with a double sheet of newspaper tightly twisted. Once
it is burning nicely, I start turning the blower and cover with some
coal. I add coke from previous fires after the coal is started. I have
found straight coke hard to get lit.

So what's the deal? All I can figure is that when people say that coke
starts better they mean you get a useable fire faster.

-- 
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:48:56 -0500

On Apr 2,  8:33am, Steve Smith wrote:
> Subject: Fire Starting

>From what Jerry wrote, the coke he is using has been converted in his forge
fire. It is what I call breeze. Indeed, it is easier to get a fire started with
breeze than with the green coal from which it (the breeze) was made. However,
if the coke of which you write is metalurgic coke from a commercial supplier,
then that coke fire is both harder to start and trickier to keep going
especially when using a hand-driven air source. Metalurgic coke has been
compressed during its production.

It appears that both you and Jerry use coke produced in the forge.

Just my opinion.

Mark

-- 
Dr. Mark E. Williams

Bldg N-159, Rm E-215
NASA/GSFC/WFF/EG&G
Wallops Island, VA 23337
804-824-1744

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 13:12:35 MST

Dear Dr. Mark,

> breeze than with the green coal from which it (the breeze) was made.
> 

So how do you start fires? The coke I'm using is breeze, made in
previous fires, and I find it is harder to ignite than green coal.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Frost)
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 15:48:07 -0900

> previous fires, and I find it is harder to ignite than green coal.

Steve:

I've never had much luck starting coal or coke with paper. The tendency 
is for the blast to flow around the paper and coal/coke burns best with 
air blowing through it. I use cardboard coils on end, as it channels the 
air through the coal/coke and burns very hot. Finger sized sticks work 
pretty well too, just build it so the fire and air have free passage 
through the coal/coke.

Breeze, huh. Learning all the time,
		Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:28:40 -0500

On Apr 2,  1:12pm, Steve Smith wrote:
> Subject: Re: Fire Starting
> Dear Dr. Mark,
>

Let's assume you have an amount of coke from a previous fire. Look the remains
over, before the next fire, and remove most of the clinker. Close the ash dump
on the firepot(mine is a sliding gate). Take 4 to 6 full sheets of dry
newspaper, one at a time crumple together to make a ball the size of a cabbage.
In the empty firepot, put the paper and light one or two spots. When the paper
has caught fire, begin to crank the blower. The flames should increase. Begin
to put coke from previous fire on the burning paper being careful not to
smother the fire and keeping the blower going. As you put more coke on the
fire, increase the amount of air from the blower. There needs to be a balance
between amount of air and amount of fuel. This takes experience. Finally start
adding green coal to the edges of the fire. Sometimes I add green coal to the
spot where flames shoot out from the burning paper through the coke.

Use water sparingly. After the fire is burning, I will pack the fire with wet
green coal(usually fines and up to the size of pea gravel). Depending on what
I'm going to work on, I will use water to contain the fire so all of the fuel
doesn't burn at once.

After some time, the paper will have burned out and the coke/coal will be
burning. There will be a hollow spot because of the paper not being there.
Using either poker or shovel, collapse that hollow so that you will have a
solid fire. The blower should not be stopped during this process. You may get
some thick smoke. When the smoke thins, you can stop cranking the blower.

One thing further, this method works for me in the forges I use regularly. Your
firepot may be different and your blower may be different. You will develop
your own style of fire starting. You may need to use scrap wood on the paper
before adding coke/coal. You may find that fewer sheets of newspaper work
better. Experience will be the best teacher. Stick with it.

Mark

I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.
Grouch Marx

---

From: Ralph Snel <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 15:19:00 METDST

I almost exclusively burn coke, and it _is_ hard to light. What works fine
for me is to start a fire in the previously described ways, but add charcoal
instead of cokes. Once the charcoal is burning properly, rake over the cokes.
Works like a charm, and doesn't take more than a few minutes to get up to
forging heat.

BTW: a hot air gun (for paint stripping) can do wonders!

Ralph Snel
[email-masked]
Sweden

---

From: "D. M. Dickie" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 96 06:26 PST

Hi To all:

I have encountered a puzzling (at least to me ) situation a couple of times,
and I thought someone out there might suggest a cause and a remedy.  

I have been making a few candle drip pans from salvaged door kick-plate
brass/bronze?  I anneal them by heating in the forge and dunking in the
slack tub in order to raise them cold.  When I quench them, they come out of
the tub copper plated.  I have encountered this when pickling Sterling
Silver in Sparex using steel tongs to hold the material, but I wasn't
expecting it from using steel tongs to hold brass in the slack tub.  Any
suggestions?

=============================================================================
D. M. (Mike) Dickie 
FLATLANDER FORGE
Box 85
Pennant, SK
Canada S0N 1X0

[email-masked]

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:11:29 -0500

On Apr 3,  6:26am, D. M. Dickie wrote:
> the tub copper plated.

	This is not a plate as you might think of it.  What has happened is
	that the zinc (and perhaps other metals) has burned off from the
	surface of the material, leaving the copper behind.  This happens,
	e.g., when hard soldering sterling silver.  The copper oxidizes away,
	leaving a very thin layer of fine silver behind.  To me this indicates
	you have used too high a heat.  The dullest red should anneal your
	brass just fine.  in any case you always stand to have some degree
	of this effect manifest itself with brasses.  Buffing should take care
	of it.

> I have encountered this when pickling Sterling
> Silver in Sparex using steel tongs to hold the material,

	You are breaking a cardinal rule of pickling.  NEVER use anything
	but copper tongs.  Steel will contaminate the sparex.  And the acid
	is hard on steel tongs.  Spend the $10 on a pair of copper tongs and
	that particular problem will go away instantly.

	Good luck.

	-Andy V.

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 96 9:12:06 MST

Dear People,

Thanks for all your answers. My original confustion was not over
getting a fire lit; I can almost always get it lit immediately with
two sheets of newspaper and _green_coal_. The only times I have a
problem is if I try to light the breeze coke.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 96 9:47:38 MST

> 	of this effect manifest itself with brasses.  Buffing should take care

I disagree. I think that this is indeed a plating situation. Caveat:
I'm riding on my high school chemistry, which was awhile back.

Plating occurs due to dissimilar metals being in a common electrolyte.
In this case, the metals are iron and zinc. 

When the brass goes into the quench tub, there are three metals
present, copper and zinc from the brass, and iron (scale in the bottom
of the tub). The electromotive series puts copper the most positive of
the three, iron in the middle, and zinc as most negative. This means
(I think) that when the brass goes into the quench tub, some of the
zinc plates itself onto the iron. This leaves behind a surface layer
depleted of zinc--i.e. a thin copper surface. 

> > Silver in Sparex using steel tongs to hold the material,

This is a similar plating problem.

I wrote up some info on the electromotive series for ArtMetal. The
article is in the resources section. If you don't have web access,
write me off the list and I will post you a copy.

You can find ArtMetal at the address below:
wuarchive.wustl.edu/edu/arts/metal/ArtMetal.html

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "D. M. Dickie" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 06:04 PST

Thanks to all who responded to my earlier posting re. what I assumed was
copper plating on my candle cups from the slack tub.  I guess the consensus
is that it is zinc removal from too high a temperature, rather than plating
as such, and I will attempt to lower the annealing temp and see what
happens.  I know I have read that the silver version of the problem is
plating, by Sparex that has been contaminated by iron in some manner, eg
using steel tongs rather than copper ones, which by the way, I do know
better!  I assumed the copper-to-brass thing was a similar error in some way.

Now for another probably dumb question:
How does one determine whether the material at hand is brass or bronze?

[email-masked]

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 9:27:17 MST

Keep an open mind on plating--if lowering anealing temp doesn't do the
trick, I bet it's plating. 

Plating in this case means plating the scale in the bottom of the tub,
with the brass as the source of metal (zinc).

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:13:14 -0500

> with the brass as the source of metal (zinc).

	Steve, you could well be right, but my limited knowledge of this
	suggests otherwise.  I don't believe there is anywhere near enough
	current generated to do what you suggest.

	I do electroplate work here and there (precious metals) and know
	that the process uses low voltage (about 19v) and relatively
	stiff current.  I'd honestly be surprised if what you are suggesting
	would actually be happening.  Also, there's not really enough time
	to do what your explanation suggests.

	Also please remember that copper will plate as well.  Steel can be
	plated in brass by using a brass electrode.  Why, if you are using
	such an electrode, would only the zinc migrate?  If you have an
	explanation for this I'd sure like to hear it as a matter of pure
	interest.

	-Andy V.

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:30:58 -0500

> How does one determine whether the material at hand is brass or bronze?

	Boy oh boy, talk about a FAQ!  BTW, do we *have* a FAQ file??

	Anyhow, the terms "brass" and "bronze" are very loosely defined.
	Most folks take brass to be defined as an alloy of copper and
	zinc, while bronze is taken to be copper and tin.  This, however,
	is by no means universally true.  There are several brasses that
	contain no zinc and bronzes with no tin in them.  There are brasses
	and bronzes that have both alloying elements in them.

	To answer your question, short of spectrosopy, assaying, or
	having a label you feel you can trust attached to the piece
	of metal in question, there is usually no way to tell what kind
	of alloy you are dealing with, though sometimes you can get a
	general idea.  E.g., very yellow alloys define one loos category
	usually referred to as "brass".   But this could be 660 or cartridge
	brass or any one of many other alloys.

	Reddish metals could be naval brass, or perhaps a type of bronze.

	Sorry there isn't a more precise answer to give.

	-Andy V.

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 11:26:29 MST

> 	to do what your explanation suggests.

Good point about the time. Silver in pickle with iron takes a little
while to plate; it is not instantaneous. Pickle is also a whole lot
more conductive than the slack tub.

> 	explanation for this I'd sure like to hear it as a matter of pure

I'm out on a limb here. I'm claiming that the zinc would move rather
than the copper because the zinc has a more negative half cell
potential than iron, while copper has a more positive potential than
iron. I'm thinking of the 'plating' as corrosion of three metals in an
electrolyte. The most negative metal corrodes. I'm not sure if this is
applicable, but that's what I was thinking.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Peter Goering <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:28:40 -0700 (MST)

Hi All,

I've spent a lot time around copper mines and I thought I'd share
something we like to show new students.  We take our rock hammers/picks 
and dunk them into the leach liquor (it's a dilute sulfuric acid solution 
with dissolved copper).  They come out beautifully plated with a thin 
veneer of bright copper.  It's a great way to demonstrate an interesting 
facet of solution chemistry.

Pete Goering
Polvadera NM

---

From: [email-masked] (Thomas Boudreau)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:02 -0300

>Neat!  Congratulations Mike.
>
>Joe
>
------------------------------------->

        Hey! Hey! Good luck to the family!! 

«»Thomas B.
«»N.S. Can.
«»[email-masked]
«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»-«»

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:21:07 -0400

There's been a lot of talk about anvils, which of course should be no surprise,
but I have noted that many folks find them unaffordable.  So what about rolling
yer own?

Besides metal working, I've spent considerable time in cabinet shops and
have also done some wood pattern making way back in my college days.  Would
there be any $$ advantage in having an anvil cast from your own pattern?

>From a design standpoint, you could, in principle, have anything you want.
Single bick... double... NO bick, a la Japanese style anvils... 200# or
2000#... the possibilities are very broad.

Just out of curiosity, if someone were to do this, what would be a good
material?  4140?  What about an ultimate material?  S5? (is S5 castable?)

Would there be any significant disadvantages to a cast anvil vis a vis a
forged specimen?

Am I nuts?

	-Andy V.

---

From: Ralph Snel <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:51:52 METDST

> ... unaffordable ...
[...] 
> Am I nuts?
You think you can do cheaper then around $1/lb ?
:)

Ralph Snel
[email-masked]
Sweden

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:05:07 -0400

On Apr 19, 11:21am, Szucs wrote:
> Subject: Rolling yer own?
Not knowing your shrink, I can't answer the last question. One difficulty
between a cast anvil and a forged one would be heat treating to get the face
hard. As for the ultimate material, ask Hochewa or some other metallurgist.

Just my opinion. BTW When are you going to do this?

Mark

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 11:14:34 MDT

In my area of the U.S. (Colorado), I think you would get lots of
interest in the $2/pound region. That's as cheap as we see useable
anvils anymore. Some folks would pay more.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:04:13 -0400

Just got off the horn with one of my casters.  The anvil is very doable.

Can anyone tell me what a good material would be?  I was quoted a price of
about $2.50/lb. - $3.00 for 4140 in single quantities, which is a bit
high.  Is there anything else that would be as good, but cheaper?

Of course that quote goes down with quantity.

Also, what size hardy and pritchel holes?  Face dimensions?  Single or
double bick?

I suppose it's not unobvious that I *really* like making tools.

	-Andy V.

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 16:23:35 MDT

Dear Andy,

This sounds like a great project. Would it be better to make a popular
pattern and buy the price down with volume, or to make something
special that had a more limited appeal? Does volume pricing depend on
the number of duplicates of a pattern, or total poundage purchased? If
the latter, then a bunch of custom designs could be done. I'll have to
think on this a while.

--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:19:49 -0800

> I suppose it's not unobvious that I *really* like making tools.

Andy:

I have an anvil with a steel face and horn, and a mallable cast iron 
body. The seperate pieces were welded during the casting process. The 
face and horn were placed in the mold and brought up to welding heat, 
then the Iron was poured. After the proper cooling period, the mold was 
broken open and the anvil was placed under a water tower and a metered 
quantity of water at a specific temperature was poured over the face, 
over a given period of time. The water hardened the face and horn while 
the heat of the body controlled the chill. It produced a superior 
quality anvil and may be a method worth considering. I'm vague about 
times, temps, etc, as I don't know what they were. Establishing the 
specifics of the method would be the tricky part.

There is another method of quenching this type of anvil by suspending it 
upside down with the face in a pond or creek. The only problem with this 
method would be the lack of temperature control for the water, though 
this could be done today by using a large tank instead of the local mill 
pond.

This method, tricky as it is, produces a good quality product without 
some of the problems associated with other methods. With a cast, one 
piece anvil it is difficult to get the face hard enough. Casting, 
hardening and tempering such a large piece of high carbon steel produces 
enourmous internal stresses that are likely to make it self destruct. 
Materials that can be cast in anvil sizes, such as 4140 just won't get 
hard enough on the face. How many of you can cold forge on a modern cast 
anvil without marking it? Mine will flatten a cold chisel without 
leaving a mark, a new file will barely cut it and is dulled in the 
process.

Forged anvils are high quality products but they have their own problems 
inherent in such large forgings and their hardening and tempering.

Hardy and pritchel holes, would be a matter of anvil size, shape, horns, 
etc, would be a matter of preference.

This is one of the things I've always wanted to do but without the 
specifics of the process it would be costly in time and materials to 
develope them through trial and error. Still, one of the things I plan 
on having in my yard when I retire from my "regular" job, is a small 
foundry and cupola for the quest.

My 2cwt worth,
	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: Ralph Snel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 9:14:13 METDST

> leaving a mark, a new file will barely cut it and is dulled in the 
I have a Dutch 53 kg anvil from 1913, in cast steel. No way you can mark
the surface of this one. A bit brittle on the edges though. But I have no
idea what steel was used.

Ralph Snel
[email-masked]
Sweden

---

From: Kayne Hardware <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:41:06 +0000

I may be slanted by the fact that i am a dealer for peddinhaus.  We 
also own and use every working day three kohlslau anvils 126 to 325 
lbs. our k's are fine but I know of alot of soft ones  mostly in the 
larger sizes .I also had the opportunity to use a Rifflinghaus and a p 
on the same station both were new , the owner agreed with me that the 
p had a better feel and seemed to move metal better . The r is far the 
prettier as is the k but the p does the job better as it is designed 
better in proportion and material.I usually donot respond ,steve kayne

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:27:07 -0400

> Just my opinion. BTW When are you going to do this?

	Once I get all the information I need, decide that is it indeed worth
	doing, and make the match plate.

	-Andy V.

---

From: "Szucs" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:05:38 -0400

> the latter, then a bunch of custom designs could be done. I'll have to

	Seems to me it is poundage sensitive as well as to the number of
	pieces.  However, I did not gather that the uniformnity of
	type is in any way a consideration.  I don't think the casters
	care whether they ram up one type or twenty different types of
	molds, assuming of course that there's no major differences in
	the labor required between them.

	The cost factor for many different types will be felt in pattern
	making.  If I decide to do this, I plan on initially making a
	single match plate for something in the 200 to 250 pound range.
	If that works out, then perhaps I'll graduate to bigger and
	even better specimens.

	For me the biggest hassle is doing the pattern as I don't have
	a wood working shop at my disposal.  HOWEVER, my girlfriends father
	owns a machine shop.  I might be able to avail myself of his
	facilities :).

	I'd really like to do this, if for nothing else than to supply myself
	with something a bit larger than a 124 pounder.  Well, that and the
	satisfaction of making something I feel is useful.

	OOooo.. question about the horn profile...  what profile should
	I use, the classical  horn shaped horn found on most anvils I've
	ever seen or the conical section horn that I've seen on the
	Peddinghaus anvils?

	-Andy V.

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:39:34 MDT

In mid February of this year, the following message went out on TheForge:

>I am developing a documentary about a master Californian 
>blacksmith. In the process, I am taking a lot of detailed video
>footage of his style and technique.
>
>It occured to me that the raw, unedited material could be
>very useful for beginning blacksmiths.  There's a lot to be
>learned by simply watching a master go about his work,
>from start to finish. The more opportunities like this you
>can find, the more finer points of the craft you can pick up .
>
>If you know of anyone who would like to have a copy of this
>footage, please have them contact me.  It would be a shame
>to let this valuable information collect dust, when it can provide
>a genuine service.
>
>--Jim Walker, Director, Institute of Metal Repair.
>> [email-masked]

Has anyone received a video? I haven't yet. I wrote to Jim recently
and had my mail returned due to Jim's mailbox being full. Does anyone
have a street address or telephone number for Jim?

Thanks,
--
Steve Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:09:36 -0400

On May 20,  1:39pm, Steve Smith wrote:
> Subject: blacksmithing video

Steve,

Try this info:

Jim Walker, Director, Institute of Metal Repair,
1558 S. Redwood, Escondido, CA 92025
619/432-8942

Take care.

Mark

---

From: Steve Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 9:43:50 MDT

I need some sheet pewter, about .035" (not critical). Rio Grande in
Albuquerque does not have any. Atlas Metals in Denver has a piece that
they hold very dear; they want $37 per pound, which I figure is about
5 times the ingot price!!

Does anyone know of a source?

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Dr. Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:45:04 -0400

On May 24,  9:43am, Steve Smith wrote:
> Subject: sheet pewter

I don't know the price but try Belmont Metals, 800-654-2152

They are located at:
337 Belmont Ave.
Brooklyn NY 11207
718 342 4900
718-342-0175  fax

If they don't have what you need, they may be able to give you a source.

Mark

---

From: Tom Vincent <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:43:21 -0500 (CDT)

We talked with George D Hassel Master Founder (I also asked him where my 
keys were, but he didn't know. Master indeed) of Colonial Williamsburg 
(804) 229-1000 x 2482 about this subject. He refered us to White Metal 
Rolling and Stamping Co. (Call him for the address) or Hagstaz and Son, 
709 Sandston St, Philadelphia PA. He seemed to think it very important 
that we purchase lead free pewter, even though we were working outside on 
top of a hill, so we did. Tom

---

From: "Dave B." <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:42:39 -0600

At 11:07 PM 1/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave,
>What are you paying for 1/2 1018cold rolled. 
>It would be nice to see what everyone4 across the country and locally are
>paying.
>I'll look up what I am paying and post it soon.
>
>Thanks 
>
>marc3
>Marc of the Hammer
>
>

The last time I bought 1/2" (and other sizes) 1018CR I paid $1.00/lb.  But,
this was for 5/16" and under.  At the same time I did buy some hot rolled
in sizes 5/16" to 1/2" and paid $0.49/lb for that.  Please note that I am a
small quantity buyer (this order was for only about 150# total weight).

Dave Brown
Heritage 'Smithing
Heritage Hill State Historical Park
Green Bay, WI

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 97 9:12:29 MST

> Heritage Hill State Historical Park

In Fort Collins, Colorado, I pay $0.65/lb for steel with no cutting
charge, both hot and cold rolled, all sizes same price. That's the
expensive place. In Greeley I buy hot rolled steel for $0.30 to $0.35
per pound in 20' sticks. I'm a small quantity buyer. 

Usually I buy scrap for $0.15/lb.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 12:00:20 -0500

On Jan 15,  9:12am, Steven O. Smith wrote:
> Subject: Re: metal site

In November, I bought several smaller sizes 1/4 to 7/16, square & round,
cold-rolled at about $0.75/lb. Hot rolled is usually cheaper. Scrap is
$0.15/lb.
Eastern Shore Maryland & Lower Delaware

Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Bruce Conner)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:08:30 -0500

>  Bruce:
>        I like the way you think. If you where to heat coal in this
>thing would you end up with coal gas and coke. This is reminiecent of
>the methane collection business using a oil barrel full of manure with
>an inner tube. I suppose it is only the organic stuff that gasses off
>and you would be left with pure carbon, or not? Sounds like a cottage
>industry in the making if you live close to a coal mine( I do ) and if
>coke is expensive (it is). I know some guys that used to work in a coal
>mine that had a charcoal plant, maybe they have an idea on how this
>works.
>       Wouldn't my nieghbors faces light up when I tell them that the
>new Bounce-a-rama
>that their kids are playing on in my back yard doubles as a coal gas
>storage facility.
>       I wounder what would be involved in compressing it?
>
>       Ross Holden

I have a feeling OSHA and other interested government helpfuls might have a
bad turn if you tried compressing the stuff.  But for heating your house
(if you have gas heat) it might work OK.  Not surer if you would have to
compress it to use it right away, I think not.  Just a matter of having
enough vapor coming off.

Beats me what is left after the thing is done "gassing".  It might vaporize
quite a bit of the carbon as well and just leave refractories.  I make
something called "char cloth" for starting fires with flint and steel and
it is essentially carbonized cloth or cotton.  If you leave it on the heat
too long, it just kinda goes away.  Of course, it could be that my
container isn't sealed well enough to prevent some O2 from getting in and
I'm just burning it away.  Looks like I'll have to check into the details
of this.

Bruce Conner -Locket QA team

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 14:12:16 MST

> Bruce Conner -Locket QA team

When you heat wood, the flammeable gas given off has a lot of alcohol
in it (I think this is where the term 'wood alcohol' comes from). So
it is flammeable, and useful as a fuel, but if it cools it will
condense into a liquid. I would think that the same was true of coal,
that when you heat it you are driving off liquids by evaporation
rather than releasing petroleum gas. Just a guess on the coal.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Mark E. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:12:05 -0500

On Jan 16,  2:12pm, Steven O. Smith wrote:
> Subject: Re: A forge idea
> >
> > >  Bruce:

When you heat coal in an enclosed vessel, destructive distillation occurs.
Gases and liquids boil off leaving the solid in the reaction vessel. The gases
are called coal gas and, at one time in our history, were used for street and
home lighting. The liquid will condense upon cooling into coal tar which was
investigated strongly by the Germans in the mid to late 19th century. Coal tar
has given us saccarin and many dyes among other things. The solid is primarily
carbon which is then compacted to form the coke that is used in blast furnaces.

One may find more information on this topic by looking at the history of
organic chemistry.

Mark

Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, lest ye deceive yourselves.
James 1:22

---

From: Ed Fasula <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:31:58 -0600 (CST)

> quite a bit of the carbon as well and just leave refractories.  I make

Our design of a gassifier uses a charcoal bed which serves as a bed (red 
hot) to convert oil to gas, the the carbon that is left just replaces 
charcoal that burns off.

---

From: Ed Fasula <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:09:48 -0600 (CST)

I have just picked up a 25# and 50#.  I used a 25# once (the only time 
I used a power hammer before) and it seemed wimpy.  He had it set up to 
hit about twice a second.  I don't know if that was fast enough, but the 
guy I got these hammers from said I needed to have them at "6 to 8 hits a 
minute, no, second."

Does anyone know what the right speed is?  Also, he ran a 1hp motor, is 
that ok?  Where do I find these answers?  I have a million questions, 
like, here's another, how are the dies SUPPOSED to go in?  Mine are all 
gunked with weld and paint (I haven't gotten them unloaded to take a 
closer look yet).

How does the 50 perform?  I'd like to do some stamping, say 2" rosetts.  
I may get a 100 pounder too.  It's a long story.

---

From: mark sperry <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:29:16 -0500

> I may get a 100 pounder too.  It's a long story.

ed you might want to order the book called "The little giant 
powerhammer"by richard kern 
this book cost around 30 dollors and tell all about the little giant