Subject: Re: Real apprenticeships ..Yak!!

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 00:55:05 -0500 (EST)

>>>> >	One of the biggest troubles introduced by excessive convenience
>>>> >	it the phenomena of not thinking anymore, or perhaps better stated
>>>> >	as not paying sufficient attention to what we are doing, as Thomas
>>>> >	so astutely observed.
>>>> ==========================================================>
>>>>  How many hours/days did the YOUNG aprentice spend in, (pre 19th cen.)
>and around the shop or on the bellow before he got to hammer hot iron??
>>>----------------------------------------------------------->

Has anybody else here ever talked to anyone that's come out of the French
Guild System?

The Guild owns houses all over France. If a student is accepted as an
apprentice member, s/he lives >free< in one of these houses (kind of
communal dormatories) and works in a factory or design house or other
specialty metal house for a period of time, then they play musical jobs and
work somewhere else and learn a whole different aspect of the trade. They do
this until they recieve journeyman status, then their dues and their
patience are spent on the next series of apprentices. At least that's the
best I could understand, my French is pretty bad. The fellow I spoke with,
Jean Sebastien Reicher, had in his portfolio, a very nice wrought gate, a
wrought and brazed table, a welded prototype hightech aluminum freeway
lighting fixture and pole that he had built completely, but under the
supervision of a master, a piece of heavy machinery he had helped assemble,
and some forged copper and some other stuff. That was his apprenticeship
portfolio. After that he got a job, working with the company that
refurbished the torch on the Statue of Liberty.  They sent him to New York
where he copied the copper repousee surround of an oval window in a dormer
of a historic building so they could add another dormer and make the attic
into a legal (and expensive) penthouse. He let me xerox some of of the fotos
of that process. If you want I'll try to scan them and set them up on my web
site.

Jean Sebastian, married a lady from St. Paul, and he came out to visit my
studio when they came to the states once.

Gene

 The Studios of Gene Olson and Chris Wilson - Working in Metals, Stone,
Mixed Media
    8600 NE O'Dean Ave, Elk River MN 55330
   fax:  612-441-5846  Phone:  612-441-1563
 email:  [email-masked]    URL:  http://www.cris.com/~mettlewk/

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From: Willie Calhoun <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:26:30 -0600

> email:  [email-masked]    URL:  http://www.cris.com/~mettlewk/

Please share your photos when you have the time.  I think that is a great
idea. We can see what is being done by others.

Could get a whole new thing going showing our work to others.  Even those
who don't have the high level of skill as the ones who get into the ABANA
mag. could showcase their work.

No matter how little (maybe an nice S hook) or great the project, if you
have done your best the project worthy of the highest praise.
Willie

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From: [email-masked] (Bradley Sanders)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:27:16 -0500

>patience are spent on the next series of apprentices. 

     Hi Chris, Bradley Sanders here

     My shop works like that, to an extent. Two of the guys who live here on 
the farm pay no rent. We pay them, but they haven't got big expenses. We 
feed everyone who works for us lunch everyday. (My wife is a gourmet cook, 
but sometimes it's beans and beans). A couple of the guys have done as much 
as six years before going on their way. Let's say that we have been 
performing an experiment in that direction, in the name of survival... 
     However, our system of taxation does not allow for apprenticeships to 
happen on a substantive level, unless you're a declared non-profit 501c3 
corporation. If we're not, then we have to pay taxes on what we *didn't* pay 
the apprentices, because we're essentially doing a "trade" with them. THAT'S 
why apprenticeship hasn't taken hold in this country in the form that you 
describe. You can't be high profile and do apprenticeships without running 
into this law. 
     
     This glass wall between profit and non profit entities really prevents 
a lot of training from happening. The upshot of it is that students are 
presented with an ersatz version of the workplace while in school (which is 
a non-profit entity); and are useful as employees only after they have been 
trained to exist in a shop (profit entity) which has to survive by hustling 
a profit to meet the overhead. 
 
>If you want I'll try to scan them and set them up on my web
>site.

     Your web site, and your machinations, are great! They make one want to 
immediately jump in and make one to play with. I think I saw one of your 
pieces years ago. I remember it distinctly, but I can't remember where I was 
at the time. Beautiful! 
     I found that loading on the title (first) page of your site took a long 
time. Is that because my modem (28,800), is slow, or because yours is fast?  

                                                  Nice to meetcha
                                                  [email-masked]