Subject: Forge welding flux

From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:15:46 -0400 (EDT)

Chris:

Don't suppose that L.L & B could be L.L. Bean?  They have just about 
everything else, why not anvils?  (For the slower smiths, the preceding
was a joke - of sorts.)

As for forge welding flux, I've used anhydrous borax.  The 20 Mule Team 
laundry borax is hydrated and "foams" when applied to hot iron due to 
release of water; anhydrous will not.  Anhydrous is available from 
chemical supply companies, but more expensive than the grocery store 
stuff.  Among commercial fluxes, I've had very good results with Crecent 
Forge Compound (Superior Flux & Mfg Co).  Crescent is what I use on a 
regular basis.  Don Ferdinand of Wyvern Industries sells a flux called 
Draconite which is touted as formulated for use as a liquid for welding 
pattern-welded steel, but will work in the powder form for regular forge 
welding.

D.C. Hufford

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From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 07:34:58 -0400 (EDT)

Awhile back, someone mentioned saving the stubs of 7014 arc welding rods 
and grinding up the coating for use as flux for forge welding.  Did I 
remember this right?  If so, has anyone else tried this?  

D.C. Hufford

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From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:39:50 -0500

At 00:53 6/7/96 EDT, you wrote:
>> I have read, but not tried myself, that you can heat laundry borax
>> over an ordinary stove and drive off the water.
>
>I make anhydrous borax by melting the ordinary, hydrated kind in a
>home-made iron ladle in the forge fire. I don't know the temp but it
>glows dull red in a dark room when it's hot enough to pour.
>
>Poured out into an iron bowl or onto a steel slab, it hardens up into
>a glassy black-green blob that can be ground as fine as you like with
>whatever you've got -- I use an ad hoc steel mortar and pestle. Makes
>a slightly greenish powder that doesn't foam when used as a flux.
>
>- Mike
>-- 
>Michael Spencer               (902) 543-8375
>[email-masked]
>URL: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/mspencer/home.html
>---
>
>
When I dehydrated borax I didn't take it past the 'foamy' step down to the
'glass' stage.  Did I not go far enough?  It seemed to work fine when I used
it for fluxing.

Dave B

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From: Dave B <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:47:49 -0500

At 23:22 6/6/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Dave B wrote:
>> 
>> At 22:36 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> >At 08:15 PM 6/6/96 -0400, David C. Hufford wrote:
>> >
>> >>stuff.
>> >I have read, but not tried myself, that you can heat laundry borax over an
>> >ordinary stove and drive off the water.  I think you have to grind up the
>> >resulting mass.  I'll look  it up if anyone's really interested.
>> >
>> >Bruce Freeman
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I've done this.  What you end up with is a fluffy powder.  There may be some
>> clinging together, but grinding isn't necessary, unless you cook it to hot
>> and turn it into glass.
>> 
>> Dave B
>
>I don't know about borax specifically but 240f is the standard 
>temperature used in the materials lab to drive off hygroscopic moisture 
>in virtually all tested materials. A toaster oven should work fine for 
>producing small batches. As with any anhydrous material it absorbs any 
>available moisture so has a limited shelf life, keeping it in the 
>welding rod dryer should extend the shelf life.
>
>Another thing I heard a guy talking about was keeping a pot of borax 
>molten in the forge while welding. I don't know about this, I just 
>caught the tail end of the conversation and didn't get to talk to him. 
>Might work though.
>
>	Frosty
>-- 
>If it ain't forged
>It ain't real
>wrought iron is
>The FROSTWORKS
>
>

Thanx, Frosty.

Dave B

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From: [email-masked] (Clay Spencer)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:46:49 -0400

Some people think that borax fumes are poisonous.
Can some one who knows their chemistry verify this?
Clay

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From: "K. E. Valdejo" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:38:01 -0500

>Can some one who knows their chemistry verify this?
Clay  I can't quote chapter and verse but I have read in several books that
the fumes are toxic. How much, over how long a period, I have never read.
Supposedly, that was the advantage of EZ Weld over plain old borax, hence,
Anti-Borax. 
Kenny Valdejo
Bittersweet Forge
Millstadt, IL
[email-masked]
There has been an alarming increase in things that I know absolutely nothing
about!

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:33:30 -0400

To All,
The water in borax is chemically bound. Heating to 240*f will drive off water
from hydroscopic materials but it is not hot enough to make the compound
decompose.

Hochewa

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From: "Bruce M. Freeman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:26:37 -0400

>Can some one who knows their chemistry verify this?

I'm a chemist, not a toxicologist, so take what I say accordingly.  My
question is whether in ordinary use (i.e., as a flux) one would get enough
exposure to "boric acid" to worry about it.  Someone  has pointed out that
it is in Visine, so there must be some low level that is non toxic.  

Unfortunately I left my Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook at work.  In it
is information on volatility vs. temperature.  Question:  What is the vapor
pressure of boric acid or its decompsition product at red heat?  If anyone
knows the answer, let him post it.  If anyone wants me to estimate it (very
roughly, at best), email me directly at:

[email-masked]

Bruce Freeman

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From: "David C. Hufford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 08:05:47 -0400 (EDT)

In Jim Hrisoulas' book, The Complete Bladesmith, he mentions making 
anhydrous borax by melting it down and "cooking" it into a "dark glassy 
substance".  I tried this once by melting some borax in a ladle over the 
forge fire.  The resulting "dark glassy substance" was resistant to any 
attempts to remove it from the ladle, including attack with a cold 
chisel and hammer, so grinding it into a powder was not possible.  After 
that experience, I decided to purchase anhydrous borax.

Another ingredient often mixed with borax for use as forge welding flux 
is sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride).  Anyone had experience with the 
borax/ammonium chloride mixture?  What advantage does the ammonium 
chloride provide?

D.C. Hufford

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:47:46 -0400

To All,
Melting it into a glass is the best way to make sure that the water is gone.
Use an iron ladle or pot. All you need is a dull red heat. Then pour it out
onto an iron or steel plate. This makes the grinding part a lot easier. Keep
in a sealed bottle or can or it will pick up the water again.

Hochewa

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From: "Franklyn Garland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:12:03 +0000

> borax/ammonium chloride mixture?  What advantage does the ammonium 

Various acids and bases, or their salts, are added to fluxes to help 
them "clean" the metal as they metal and flow.  This is one such 
case.

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The Celtic Knot Forge                       
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