Subject: Hydraulic Forging Press (fwd)

From: Ralph Gustafson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:29:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ralph Gustafson <[email-masked]>
To: James Batson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hydraulic Forging Press

James Batson;

Someone in the Vancouver Island Blacksmiths Ass'n. got some info from the 
'Net on your book on Hydraulic Forging Presses. I called the phone number 
but couldn't get an answer.

Could you please email me with the ordering information for a copy of 
"The Hydraulic Forging Press".

I have a problem like you talk about. I live in a residential subdivision 
and have to not get on the bad side of my neighbours. Anything that will 
move metal without making noise sure sounds attractive.

Thanks for now

Ralph Gustafson
2567 Wilcox Terrace
Victoria B. C.
V8Z 7G5

---

From: Raymond Coon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:17:35 -0700

Ralph Gustafson wrote:
>Jim,

Could you also send me information???

Raymond Coon

[email-masked]

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From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 19:36:34 -0700

I showed the 50 Ton Sculpture Press at the Intl Sculpture Conference at 
Providence,RI in June. I had hoped to go to ABANA, but the customer, 
while gracious enough to let me keep it for the first conference was 
anxious to start work using it in his own studio. I know that some of 
the Blacksmiths attending the conf. were going on to ABANA, and could 
supply some commentary on  the unit.

The unit that I make is two presses in one frame. The ram pushes up on 
one set of 8"x12" platens with 8" of daylight between them. This is the 
'H' frame portion of the press and allows slide-in ironworker dies to be 
fitted (angle shears & rod parters, for example).

Cantilevered off of the main upright, is the lower arm of a 'C' frame 
press. This raises and lowers at the same time as the other platen. The 
'C' frame portion is 18" deep with 16" between the platens. Treadle 
hammer tooling adaptors, 8" across spherical domes, etc. are just some 
of the tooling available.

The hydraulic power unit drives the ram at 1-1/2" per second and has 
been found to be fast enough to do significant work before chilling the 
piece, but not so fast as to be dangerous, (or noisy).

This may not be what you have in mind, but I thought that I would take 
the liberty of responding to your request for information.

Pic's and pricing available by snail mail.

Web page by the end of July at    

http://www.bonnydoonengineering.com

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering, Inc.
250 Tassett Court
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
408-423-1023
408-423-1605 fax

Lee Marshall

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From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 11:05:40 MDT

> move metal without making noise sure sounds attractive.

Dear Ralph,

There are ways to quiet down your anvil for hand work. I assume what
you are after is more power than a hand hammer without additional noise.

Two other possibilities:

	Treadle hammer -- not as noisy as a power hammer
	Flypress -- quieter than hand hammering

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Frost, Jerry)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:15:48 -0800

>         Flypress -- quieter than hand hammering

Steven:

Would you mind describing the flypress please, I haven't heard the term. 
Is it similar to a flywheel type punch press?

Thanks,
	Frosty
-- 
If it ain't forged
It ain't real
wrought iron is
The FROSTWORKS

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 17:24:51 MDT

> Is it similar to a flywheel type punch press?

Here's what I wrote when I was selling a flypress:

This flypress is a 29" tall machine tool. It is used a lot in England
for limited production stamping and forming operations. Picture a
large arbor press. In place of the rack and pinion drive on an arbor
press, the flypress has a multiple start, fast acting lead screw to
drive the tool into the work. The screw is driven via an overhead arm
which drops down to a handle for the operator to pull on. The overhead
arm has a weight on it to provide momentum. Pulling the handle through
about 12" of arc results in about 5/16" of tool travel. Think of it as
a great big sledge, with the screw giving a 40:1 mechanical advantage.
If you just pull on the handle with 50 pounds of force, the tool puts
1 ton of force on the work.

The flypress is a precision tool for two reasons. First, the tool
holder rides in a dovetailed slide, so it always hits in the same
place, at the same orientation. Second, the screw has an adjustable
depth stop on it, allowing a coarse tool such as a fuller to produce
an even, consistent surface.

This press has a capacity of 5 3/8" tall and will hit to the center of
a 7 1/2" wide piece (3 3/4" from tool to column). The height dimension
is fully useable--there is room for a tool above the 5 3/8".

The base of the flypress is flattened on top to form a table for your
work. The table has "T" slots in it (like a mill table) to attach
tooling to. The table also has a hole in it right under the tool so
that if you are punching holes with it, the waste has somewhere to go. 

I don't know how heavy the press is, but two of us lifted it with a
piece of 2x4 through the "C" with no problem. One person can carry it
and wrestle it around, but the shape is very awkward for one person.

-----------------------
The press above was a #2. The one I kept is a #3 and weighs around 300
pounds. Yet another way to smash hot metal. 

Flypresses are quite common in England, pretty unusual over here in
the U.S. 

Write if you have more questions.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

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From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:37:05 -0500

>         Flypress -- quieter than hand hammering

Also try a cast steel anvil like a Fisher -- much quieter than your 
Trenton or Hay Budden (but send me your noisy anvils and I will keep 
them for you, no charge!)
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

³Foolish consistencies are the hobgoblins of little minds³

---

From: Jim McCarty <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:04:47 -0500

> This flypress is a 29" tall machine tool. It is used a lot in England
...
They come a lot taller than this -- one sold at the Ozark Conference 
that was about 6 feet tall, weighed about a ton. There is a lot of 
work being done under these lately.
-- 
Jim McCarty
Father Helias Forge
Taos, MO
Editor Rural Missouri Magazine
Newsletter editor, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

---

From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:07:42 -0700

I was in England recently (the Cotswolds) and had the opportunity to go 
through the Morgan Automobile Factory. You notice that I didn't say 
"tour the factory". If any of you have the chance, seeing this place is 
being able to step back in time to the 1920's and see how cars were made 
(not assembled) in that era. I walked into the lobby and rang a bell, a 
secretary came to a window, asked what I wanted, and handed me a xeroxed 
copy of the floor layout that covered some 8 to 12 buildings and ran the 
gamut from parts inventory to upholstery. 
There were no yellow aisle markers, no rope barriers, no guides, no 
plexiglas barriers, etc.  You were literally in the middle of the 
production process and at one point, I held up the end of a fender while 
the assembler was screwing the other end to the body buck. (his mate had 
gone on a tea break).
Anyhow, the point of all this is that they were using flypresses on a 
daily basis to punch holes in steel baffles that were used in gas tanks.

Flypresses were used for minting of coins at the Philadelphia mint early 
on. These were set-up with large lead filled balls at the ends of the 
cross arm that was at the top of the screw. They were wound up to their 
full clearance and then rotated around as fast as possible (actually 
flung) to get the mass and inertia moving as rapidly as they could and 
when the punch hit the coin blank, the mass of the rotating balls really 
jammed the punch down into the coin. Benvenuto Cellini (sp) described 
one of his making for commerative medallions for the pope during the 
1400's. Some early woodcuts that I have show 2 to 4 men standing on 
elevated platforms pulling on ropes (like a windlass) to get maximum 
rotational speed. Neat pieces of gear.

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering
Making a Good Impression

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From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 16:00:46 MDT

> jammed the punch down into the coin. 

This is how I was told flypresses got their name, the action being to
"let fly" on the handle. I don't think that this is the right way to
use a flypress.

The minute the handle leaves your hand, no more energy is going into
the press except any slight pull from gravity acting through the
screw. I think I get more effective blows by holding onto the handle
and pulling hard until the press is completely stopped. I think the
follow through is important; consider that with a 40:1 mechanical
advantage, 50 pounds of pull from your hand gives you another ton of
pressure on the work.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:12:50 -0700

Just thought of something else. Use the analagy of an elephant pushing 
on something, versus a high speed bullet hitting the same thing. I get 
into discussions all of the time when people try to equate punch presses 
with slow speed hydraulic presses. A 20 ton punch press does much more 
work that a 20 ton slow speed hydraulic press. The speed of the impact 
has more to do with the equation than anything else. I usually describe 
it as termites holding hands and keeping the house together. If they are 
hit hard enough they are momentarily startled and let go of each other 
and the metal flows into the crevices of the die. To achieve the same 
thing with a slow squeeze requires significantly more tonnage.

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering

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From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:03:59 -0700

While it is true that no more energy is going into the screw as soon as 
you let loose of the handle, and that you lose control of the "hit", it 
is also true that you can impart a rotational force to the screw that 
would not be easily maintained because of the jarring that occurs at the 
"hit". Many of the flypresses did not even have handles on them for the 
operator. For example, the one that I have, which is in excellent to 
mint condition and made in Boston in 1850 has no provision for a handle 
at all. Different strokes for differnt folks.

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering

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From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 13:18:52 MDT

Dear Lee,

> Benvenuto Cellini (sp) described 

Could you send me references for the woodcuts? I can find Cellini ok.
There is a rather large flypress pictured on the cover of one of the
two Dover volumes of Diederot's Encyclopedia. Looks like several men
and a dog pushing the press.

--
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Lee Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:13:04 -0700

Steve,

Try the book:
	The Art & Craft of Coinmaking
	A History of Minting Technology
		by:
	Dennis R.Cooper
	ISBN 0907 605 27 3
	Printed 1988 by:

	Spink & Son Ltd
	5-7 King Street
	Saint James
	London SW1Y 6QS

This book was given to me by a numiast (sp) that I had made a 100 ton 
press for and I just fell in love with it. It covers the entire field of 
coinmaking from it's earliest days up to current usage. Spends quite a 
bit of time discussing and showing the machinery involved. Many 
woodcuts, paintings, etc. Truely a marvelous sourcebook.

Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering
Making a Good Impression