Subject: Blade construction.

From: [email-masked] (K.D. Colagio)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 20:40:30 GMT

I am considering working my way from knife construction to sword
construction (crawl before you walk style) and have a general idea of
what steps I need to take to get there.  If you have any
idea/suggestions/comments, please let me know (as I don't have a lot of
experience...just a few ideas, about what I am doing...).

Here is what I am planning on doing:

  First, make a simple, iron or steel blade about 9 inches long.  This
will allow me to get use to working with hot things (I have done some
'cold' work already...mostly with silver and the such...).  I may do two
or three of these, depending on how they turn out.

  Next I would like to try folding the steel as they do in the
construction of (I believe) damascus blades.  I do not want to have any
carbon content (beyond what would be in it originally) so that the
working would be easier.  This would help get the folding process down
so I have some work there.

  The next step would be to try this with some sort of layers.  How to
get the layers, I am not sure of, but I think someone told me one time
that tool steel and regular steel, if welded, would be a good place to
start.  This would be the hardest part I think, and an initial blade
this way would be folded (maybe) two or three times.

  The next thing would be a finished blade about 9 inches long that
would be folded (as an idea) maybe seven times or so.  

  After that, I have no idea how to make a jump from a 9 inch blade to a
24 to 30 inch blade...so this is as far as I have gotten.

Any comments, ideas, thoughts, etc...feel free to drop me a line.  I see
this taking (just what is above) about 9 months to a year.  I do, kinda,
have access to a forge and tools, so that makes life easier.  

Again, thanks for any input...

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        Kevin Colagio aka [email-masked]   KiLar on IRC
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From: [email-masked] (bill nelson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 19:03:38 GMT

[email-masked] (K.D. Colagio) writes:
: 
:   Next I would like to try folding the steel as they do in the
: construction of (I believe) damascus blades.  I do not want to have any
: carbon content (beyond what would be in it originally) so that the
: working would be easier.  This would help get the folding process down
: so I have some work there.

I would suggest that you forget about this, until you get a fair amount
of experience with hammer-welding metals. "Damascus" is not just folded,
the layers are welded together.

This takes a lot of skill - there are only a few knifemakers in the US
who make damascus blades.

:   The next step would be to try this with some sort of layers.  How to
: get the layers, I am not sure of, but I think someone told me one time
: that tool steel and regular steel, if welded, would be a good place to
: start.  This would be the hardest part I think, and an initial blade
: this way would be folded (maybe) two or three times.

This type of blade is not folded.  You use a high carbon sheet, sandwiched
between two mild steel sheets. The layers are hammer welded. The advantage
of such a sandwich is that you get the hardness of the HC steel, with the
toughness of the mild steel reinforcement on the sides.

I suggest that you get a lot of experience with a forge and the forging
of metal. Save the hammer welding and other fancy stuff until you become
skilled at basic technique.

You should probably produce a few things a lot simpler than a knife, to
start with.  Then, after you have gained the very basic skills, you might
try something like a chisel - where you have to produce a shape that will
be sharpened. Then, make a bunch of knives - slowly making them larger.

Note that most knives and swords are made by grinding the rough blanks to
shape and then heat treating, sharpening and polishing them. 

Bill

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From: [email-masked] ()
Date: 1 Jul 1993 08:32:00 GMT

> the layers are welded together.

  Actually, the term "folded" is used by many smiths even though it may be 
just a bit missleading. But you are correct, it is not just folded over but 
forge welded. So in a way you are actually both correct.

> who make damascus blades.

  Well... for the most part I agree, it does take skill but it is actually
fairly common to see people making damascus these days. Every generation of
crafts have their ideal test of what makes you a CRAFTSMAN. Twenty years ago I
am told that it was a Claton knot. Before that it was a copper/silver and iron
rose. Damascus just happens to be the current test. I made my first billit
within my first 6 months of aprentiship. A good teacher with a *real good forge*
could teach you to make damascus in a couple of days. The big welds are tricky. 
Start small; say 1" x 2" x .25". By the time you have (what I refer to as)
128-256 lam. -- thats 7 to 8 folds (or welds) starting with only two initial
layers and only folded over once each time. I would not suggest starting with
multipul layer welds at first; your hammer controll needs to be real good or you
have a tendency to push the layers sideways...

  Go ahead and try, but do not expect immediate results. Don't get discuraged to
quickly.

> skilled at basic technique.

  Allways a good idea...

> be sharpened. Then, make a bunch of knives - slowly making them larger.

  Again, good ideas. You will find that making the tools you need such as
chisels, punches, tongs, etc. will give you some very valuable experience 
in the forge, heat-treating, and fire management too. But as I recall from the
original post this was planned for much later projects; after a grasp of the
basics was obtained.

> shape and then heat treating, sharpening and polishing them. 

  True, but many knife and sword makes do not have forges ;-)

  EBo --

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From: [email-masked] (Jeremy Porter)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 00:06:29 GMT

>experience...just a few ideas, about what I am doing...).

First off, let me say that I have done this type of thing, but I won't say
I'm "good" at it.  I've made about 8 knives, and one sword.  The sword I
made has a number of flaws and is about 24 inches long.  The knives worked
out somewhat better...

Basic tools you need: Forge, Hammer, Anvil.  Anything else is nice
but not needed.

I have some refernce books at home, send me email for titles and authors. 

>Here is what I am planning on doing:
Knives are much easier than swords, the problem comes in maintaining the
quality down the entire length of the blade.

>construction of (I believe) damascus blades.  I do not want to have any
Damascus folded steel is not something for amatures.  I've been working
on and off with forges for nearly 3 years and I still can't get a good
forge weld.  It is very tricky to do.  Damascus requires multiple "perfect"
welds.  
Your quality of a knife or sword will not really be better with a damacus
blade, modern steels eliminate the need for folded metals.  It does look
very nice however...

>this way would be folded (maybe) two or three times.
Basically you take the orginial layers, heat and fold, weld, head fold in 
half again, weld....  About 4-8 times should be pretty good...

>24 to 30 inch blade...so this is as far as I have gotten.
One of the problems I had, was been able to heat the correct portions of
the blade, but the forge I was using was kinda improvised.  (Although
it did provide a heated area about 2 inches by 16 inches).  Go, slow
and be careful to maintain a consstant size of the blade, it is very
difficult to correct if one part gets too wide or two thin.
Also the hex tools steel, and mild steel rods, and drill rod(tool steel)
I have used tends to grow in length more than in width, about 2.5 to 3 times
more in length.

>have access to a forge and tools, so that makes life easier.  

yes having the right tools makes ALL the difference.

--
Jeremy Porter  ------------- Systems Engineering --------
Dell Computer Corp.   ------ [email-masked] ----
---------------------------------------------------------

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From: [email-masked] (bill nelson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 07:21:45 GMT

[email-masked] (Jeremy Porter) writes:
: 
: Also the hex tools steel, and mild steel rods, and drill rod(tool steel)
: I have used tends to grow in length more than in width, about 2.5 to 3 times
: more in length.

Then, you are using your cross peen hammer wrong. It should be lined up
with the length of the work, not across it. That way, the work is made
wider, with very little increase in length.

Bill

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From: [email-masked] (John Kopf, X6305)
Date: 2 Jul 93 19:37:50 GMT

When you *do* finally try to make a damascus blade, you'll encounter a problem:

The range of temperature where steel can be welded *BARELY* overlaps the range
where the "iron" (low carbon, or "mild" steel) can be welded.  The steel range
is *lower*, and there is a real danger of burning the steel.

I've found that by "cladding" the steel with *TWO* pieces of iron (one on each
side) for the *first* weld thereafter protects the steel from contact with
air (which could burn it), and now, both surfaces being iron, can be welded at
the *same* temperature with much less effort required!

Good luck!

JK

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From: [email-masked] (Jeremy Porter)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 15:51:08 GMT

In reply to a query about knifemaking, I mentioned that I had some books
on bladesmithing.  I received several emails asking for the names of the
books, so I decided to post this:

There are two books that I have used in learning knifemaking:
The Complete Bladesmith, Jim Hrisoulas, Paladin Press, 1987, ISBN 0-87364-430-1
This is an excelent book on sword and knife making.  There is also another
book on bladesmithing that he has writen, I don't know the title.

And for those that don't wish to forge the blade, this next book talks
about grinding a blade from metal stock.
Step by Step Knifemaking, David Boye, 1977, ISBN 0-87857-181-7
This book is not nearly as useful as the Hrisoulas book, but it does have
some interesting parts on finishing, and etching the blade.