Subject: Soldering Ball Valves

From: [email-masked] (Joe Sestrich)
Date: 23 Aug 93 09:28:47

OK, so misc.consumers.house might be a better place for this, 
	but I trust you fellows' answers...

	I was about to replace the shut-off valves for my outdoor
	sillcocks, but after purchasing new ball valves (to replace
	the old non-functional, leaky stemmed stop-wastes), I started
	having doubts about how to proceed with soldering in the new
	valves.

	There is an obvious plastic part that the ball rides in between
	the ball and the valve body.  Should I dis-assemble the valves
	before soldering?  FWIW I'll be using the old home-owner's special
	Bernz-o-matic propane torch. This works fine for the odd joint
	here and there, but it does take a bit longer to heat a joint.
	I was concerned that I'd get the valve hot enough to destroy the
	seal....

--

	Joe Sestrich				BBN Communications
	[email-masked]			Cambridge, MA

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From: [email-masked] (James W. Swonger)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1993 17:10:54 GMT

You could use threaded fittings - sweat on a threaded end, screw on the 
ball valve. The gate type valves could probably be made to stop leaking at
the stem by replacing the packing or retightening the retainer nut. I have
not had the best of luck with ball valves - several of mine weep a little
bit. 
-- 
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons  #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#

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From: [email-masked] (John Porter)
Date: 30 Aug 1993 22:31:19 GMT

Joe Sestrich ([email-masked]) wrote:

: 	There is an obvious plastic part that the ball rides in between
: 	the ball and the valve body.  Should I dis-assemble the valves
: 	before soldering?  FWIW I'll be using the old home-owner's special
: 	Bernz-o-matic propane torch. This works fine for the odd joint
: 	here and there, but it does take a bit longer to heat a joint.
: 	I was concerned that I'd get the valve hot enough to destroy the
: 	seal....

I've soldered at least a few dozen of them and never had a problem.
Turn the valve to the closed position (to avoid getting solder in
the ball if you over-feed) and remove the handle (to avoid scorching
it accidentally) and just solder away. I use acetylene, which you would
probably need for larger sizes, but if you're just doing 1/2" valves
the propane torch should be ok. Sometimes they weep at the stem packing,
which is separate from the ball seal, but this is usually fixed by just
tightening up the packing nut. I have had the wastes on some Watts valves
drip until I smoothed up the end of the threaded stub, but I've never
had that happen with Apollo, which is the only brand I use now. I believe
the ball seals are Teflon, which can take quite a bit of heat.

--
John Porter
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (David Jenkins)
Date: 31 Aug 1993 12:15:09 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (John Porter) writes:

|> deletia...

|> had that happen with Apollo, which is the only brand I use now. I believe
|> the ball seals are Teflon, which can take quite a bit of heat.
|> 

Teflon, if I'm not mistaken, is a variant of PTFE which is *very
dangerous* when overheated (the temperature 400 C comes to mind, tho'
I could be wrong).

It decomposes into various forms of fluorine, which can do horrible
things to tissue (things which doctors find very hard to fix).

...but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... (What, me? never!)

-- 

David Jenkins

* All incorrect spelling and faulty grammar is intentional.   *  
* Corrections are superfluous and will be ignored.  So there. *         
*

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From: [email-masked] (Volker Borchert)
Date: 31 Aug 1993 13:05:58 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (David Jenkins) writes:
|> Teflon, if I'm not mistaken, is a variant of PTFE which is *very
|> dangerous* when overheated (the temperature 400 C comes to mind, tho'
|> I could be wrong).
|> 
|> It decomposes into various forms of fluorine, which can do horrible
|> things to tissue (things which doctors find very hard to fix).
|> 
|> ...but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... (What, me? never!)

Well, Teflon is DuPont's (I think) trademark for PTFE. The danger of the
decomposition products is IMHO usually over-estimated. Imagine a Teflon
coated frying pan left without fat on a cooker plate... for those things
you even have FDA approvement (term?)... so it can't be THAT dangerous.
Continuous exposure to high concentrations is another thing, though.

-- 

* "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic." Dr Leonard McCoy <[email-masked]> *
* "I'm a mechanic, not a doctor." Volker Borchert <[email-masked]>          *

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From: [email-masked] (David Jenkins)
Date: 31 Aug 1993 14:08:59 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Volker Borchert) writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]>,
|> [email-masked] (David Jenkins) writes:
|> |> Teflon, if I'm not mistaken, is a variant of PTFE which is *very
|> |> dangerous* when overheated (the temperature 400 C comes to mind,
|> tho'
|> |> I could be wrong).
|> |> 
|> |> It decomposes into various forms of fluorine, which can do
|> horrible
|> |> things to tissue (things which doctors find very hard to fix).
|> |> 
|> |> ...but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... (What, me? never!)
|> 
|> Well, Teflon is DuPont's (I think) trademark for PTFE. The danger of
|> the
|> decomposition products is IMHO usually over-estimated. Imagine a
|> Teflon
|> coated frying pan left without fat on a cooker plate... for those
|> things
|> you even have FDA approvement (term?)... so it can't be THAT
|> dangerous.
|> Continuous exposure to high concentrations is another thing, though.
|> 
|> -- 

I think it comes down to the form of PTFE we're talking about.  You're
probably right about the coating on pans - this is some form of hard
enamel-like PTFE which probably wouldn't generate any nasties on top of
a normal stove.  If this is what's on the ball valve then there's
probably no danger at the 300 - 400 C soldering temperature. 

However, it does get nasty when you start talking about PTFE in bulk
(as used to form bearings and seals).  Having heard what fluorine
compounds can do to flesh and bone, I think I'll err on the very
cautious side.  As far as the ball valve is concerned, if the teflon
is used as a seating and thus is cut from a lump (rather than a hard
coating) then I'd take great care not to overheat it.

The danger isn't from breathing a gas (although I'm sure this doesn't
do you any good) but by contact - some compounds can be absorbed 
through the skin very easily.

The punch line is, if you can heat the joint just enough to melt the
solder then you shouldn't experience any problems.  If you overheat it
then, apart from a suspect joint, you might get a dangerous substance. 
If you are a bit slow with acetylene (which someone was using) then 
you could cook any form of PTFE way past the danger point.

-- 

David Jenkins

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From: [email-masked] (John Porter)
Date: 31 Aug 1993 14:17:59 GMT

David Jenkins ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Teflon, if I'm not mistaken, is a variant of PTFE which is *very
: dangerous* when overheated (the temperature 400 C comes to mind, tho'
: I could be wrong).

I don't know what temperature it decomposes at, but its maximum
continuous service temperature is 260 C, which is already quite a
bit higher than the melting point of solder (e.g. 50/50 melts at
about 220 C). Brazing might be ill-advised.

--
John Porter
[email-masked]

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From: "Thomas W. Strong, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 14:47:17 -0400

> the ball seals are Teflon, which can take quite a bit of heat.

I was curuious, so here's what I got as a semi-official response from an
Apollo rep:

"Apollo 70-200 solder end ball valve is designed to be sof soldered into
lines without disassembly.  This allows a tested valve to be installed
without disturbing the seats and seals in any way.  Soldering
temperature not to exceed 500 degrees F.

"If silver soldering required use Apollo 3-piece bronze valve series
82-200 which is disassembled for silver soldering into the line.  

"Per Apollo ball valve catalog BVC592."

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
  Tom Strong              N3NBB              [email-masked]

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From: "Thomas W. Strong, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 14:47:17 -0400