Subject: To MIG or Not

From: [email-masked] (Gary Johnsey)
Date: 8 Nov 1993 21:20:50 GMT

I have always wanted (not needed, but wanted) a welding outfit. I now have
one and have been studying and practicing. I am told that a MIG outfit can
produce a nice weld. I would not mind having one of these too. When I
bought the Victor regulators the salesman told me about a "great deal" on a
last-years model Hobart MIG machine. It was bought by a local body shop who
did not like it and traded it back for a bigger machine. It originally cost
about $600 but I (and probably the dog crossing the street in front of me
this morning) could have it for $350. They used it for 6 months to a year.
This is a small machine and is rated near 90 amps (120v primary). Checking
the tables in my books I see that 90 amps (actually 95) is appropriate for
.060 inches of steel. This machine sounds too small for the
dink-around/make-a-table/make-a-trailor/make-a-blob type of fun I have in
mind. 

My gas welding is coming along and my last practice produced welds close to
the pictures in the book. However, I could use any edge I could get and the
idea of  MIG is appealing. I also understand that MIG is good for working
with aluminum.

So, the question I am trying to answer for myself is: how big a MIG
welder does a guy need if he wants to morph metal into useful shapes for
the fun of it? Say 1/8 to 1/4 inch steel (book says 150 amps).  I may also
break a few things just to repair them. 

And, the question for the group: Is the $350 a good price (assuming proper
operation)? Close? Way out of line?

Thanks in advance for comments.

Gary Johnsey           My opinions are like my children.
Univ of So Ms           No one else will claim them.
[email-masked]
[email-masked] (but not often)

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From: [email-masked] (John Cooper)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 05:40:43 GMT

>[email-masked] (but not often)

I think have seen the welder you describe.  $350 probably is not bad if it
includes the shielding gas conversion kit to allow the welder to use solid
wire.  Steel 'flux-core' wire is common which produces a weld comparable to
solid wire without the hassle of lugging a bottle of gas around.  This is
a smaller but portable welder that should be able to make a single pass
weld in up to 3/16" mild steel.  At 90A it can be plugged into a standard
20A 120VAC receptacle so you aren't limited by the location of a special
high current/voltage outlet.  Actually if I recall correctly the plug on
most of these boxes is a 15A plug, so they cheat a bit here.

You will need the gas conversion kit if you plan to do any welding of
aluminum or stainless steel since only solid wire is available for these
metals -- at least I haven't found any that are self-shielding.  Al typically
needs straight CO2 and SS uses a mixture of He/Ar/CO2.  You will have to
rent or buy these tanks.  The small ones are cheaper to buy/rent and the
larger bombs are more economical to fill.

Check out the wire feed rollers for wear/slippage.  Ideally the roller(s)
will be able to drive .024, .030, .035, and .045" wire.  Also check out the
gun/nozzle/hose for wear and abuse.  The nozzle tips are consumable so plan
to have a source of supply for them.  There will minimally be two controls;
one for wire speed feed and one for current (heat).  The duty cycle for this
type of welder is ~20% which may or may not be a limitation for you.  The
intended use of these boxes is 'plug in and fix it' applications and maybe
some light fabrication work.  They are pretty versatile though.

If you have MIG welded before give it a test drive.  If not get a demo of this
welder by someone who has so you can see what this machine is capable of
doing.  If you are only gas welding now you will need a full face shield
with a #10 filter.  Get the salesman to give you a GOOD helmet!  Don't
underestimate the importance of this.  Get one with a ratchet headband that
snugs securely to your noggin.  The last thing you want to worry about
is the helmet coming loose or swinging loose while you're running a bead.
If you get one where the shaded lens itself can flip up away from a second
clear lens then you will have protection already for chipping and grinding
as well.

If you will be doing a sizable amount of work in 1/4-1/2" steel then you will
have to make multiple passed with this welder.  Easy to do when setup for
shielding gas -- just run another bead.  If you use flux core wire you should
chip or descale the previous bead to prevent slag inclusions in your weld.

If you really want to do occasional heavier work check the 'want-ads' for used
200-225A stick welders.  These commonly go for $75-$100 around here and are in
reasonably good condition.  These aren't generally capable of as clean a weld
as a properly operating and 'tuned-in' MIG and are less versatile/portable.
I find a MIG easier to use and control since once you have the feed/heat
tuned in for the workpiece, you just pull the trigger and weld.  No stuck
electrodes, no arc to maintain, no stopping for another rod.  A MIG nozzle
rides on the work surface so it's easier to learn to use.  You will have to 
keep the inside of the nozzle clear of weld spatter or it will electrically
short to the tip and you will lose 'heat'.

Being a Hobart you shouldn't worry to much about the availability of spare
parts, but they may cost a bit extra $$.  Get them to give you a day or so
to play with it at home. :)  At least get some sort of a warranty as issues
may turn up only with some use.

I hope this helps.

-john

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From: [email-masked] (Ken Moonitz)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:16:52 GMT

>>dink-around/make-a-table/make-a-trailor/make-a-blob type of fun I have in
This sounds like the Hobart Handler to me.  I bought one a few years ago
and have been very happy with it.  The basic machine sells for $500.00
plus the regulator and the bottle.  This machine (assuming we're talking
about the Hobart Handler) will weld up to 3/16" all day and will even do
1/4".

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From: Jim Jaskie <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:30:32 GMT

Subject: Re: To MIG or Not
From: John Cooper, [email-masked]
In article <[email-masked]> John Cooper,
[email-masked] writes:
>In article <[email-masked]>
[email-masked] 
>(Gary Johnsey) writes:
>>produce a nice weld. I would not mind having one of these too.

 [Lot's of Good Stuff Deleted]

>may turn up only with some use.

Just a quick comment.  I have the Lincoln version of this Hobart 90 amp
MIG welder and love it.  If you're learning to weld with a torch, you are
in for a wonderful surprise.  The MIG is MUCH, MUCH nicer.  It's far
easier, and you can do a far better job.  The heat is very localized
(much hotter "flame") so warpage is much less.  This means you can weld
much more delicate stuff, much better.  I could never master welding a
nut (even 1/2" nuts) onto something with a torch.  I often needed to do
this for aligning a bolt or threaded rod, but the torch heated the nut so
that it would deform out of round.  Easy task with the MIG.

A caution.  The numbers in most books for how much current is needed to
weld a thickness of steel is usually calculated for rod welding (stick
welding).  a MIG welder is much more current efficient, because in a
stick welder, the length of the stick presents a resistive loss and
cooling path.  In a MIG torch (squirt gun) the current is delivered by
cable to about 1/4" from the arc, instead of about 12" away.  Hence, you
can weld 1/4" steel with 90 - 100 amps in a MIG.  I do it all the time
and am happy with the results.  You can do multiple pass for thicker
material, or buy a cheap sputter box.  Sputter boxes are miserable for
the thinner stuff.  Almost all of my welding is done using square tubing
or angle iron (OK, a few horeshoes too) and so I almost never get to 1/4"
or thicker steel.

Test the welder as suggested by John, and enjoy!

-jim