Subject: Iron Availability?

From: [email-masked] (Phillip Jackson)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 07:52:56 GMT

Does anyone out there know of a source of wrought iron?  I understand it's
almost impossible to find in the states.

Lacking that, what type of steel would be most suitable to use when I am
making an object that does not require hardness or spring.  Easy working is
more important.  

I'm using a propane fired gas forge.

Phill
-- 
                                             [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (John Kopf, X6305)
Date: 5 Jan 1994 20:19:13 GMT

The only time that wrought iron is an advantage is in forge-welding (or if
you need corrosion resistance -- such as for an anchor).  For general forging,
"hot-rolled" (black) iron/steel is cheaper than "cold-rolled" (bright) steel,
and works jsut as well unless you need special alloys.

Real wrought iron probably became unavailable in the '20s, but you **MIGHT**
be able to find some as "scrap" (although in the last 70 years a lot of that
has already been scavangered) -- old barrel and tub (water tanks) were often
WI, as were architectural WI and some construction uses (do you know of a
100 year old bridge you can "salvage"?)

JK

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From: [email-masked] (Dale Gee)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 06:49:42 GMT

>100 year old bridge you can "salvage"?)

One source I was told of was pre WI farm machinery.  I have not personally
checked this out. But while deer hunting this fall I came across the
mother lode of junked pre WI farm machinery.  Maybe I will go back 
and see what I can scrap out:)

Dale

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 6 Jan 94 07:47:51 -0500

> and see what I can scrap out:)
Wrought Iron (prehaps due to the higher working temperatures) also 
shapes a bit better than mild steel.  Take a look at Yellin's stuff
sometime.  I acquired 0.5 tons of wrought iron from an old jail that
was being scrapped.  Convenient bars of 1.5" diameter and 6' long -
convenient, of course, it you have a power hammer. :-)

Steve Bloom (IronFlower Forge)

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 00:42:17 GMT

>100 year old bridge you can "salvage"?)

Back in the summer of 1991 when I visited the museum at Iron Bridge
in England they a a museum "mill" where they were going to try to
make wrought iron again and then only on a museum scale.

Don't know if they did or not and if they are still trying.

This is a great museum to visit if your are interested in the history
of the metals industry.

Dave Smucker, ALCOA

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From: [email-masked] (Ralph Snel)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:38:04 GMT

Inform me: what _exactly_ are the differences that make wrought iron
so much better for forge-welding than ordinary mild steel?
Is it (the lack of) some strange ingredient or is it plainly the way
the iron was produced?
How would you recognize a piece of WI? I've heard it has a fibrous
structure, and I've seen an old and rusty bit that showed this very
well. How would you tell if you just had a 'clean' piece? Are there
any 'standard tests'?
If I happen to run into on old farming machine for a few bucks (it
actually happens quite often), how would I be able to tell if it's
WI (of course I carry my swiss army knife and a file... :)?

Ralph
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (william thomas powers)
Date: 7 Jan 1994 08:57:49 -0500

When I visited IronBridge at Coalbrookdale in the early '80s they were just
setting the steam hammers. Sorry to hear that it isn't in production yet.

For my birthday my wife gave me a copy of _Wrought Iron_, Its Manufacture,
Characteristics and Applications; by James Aston and Edward B. Story;
published by A.M.Byers Company; Pittsburgh, Pennslyvania. Copyright 1939-1941;
seventh printing 1950.

In the back under "Applications" are several good sources(?) of wrought iron:
"....The North Side Sewage Disposal Plant in Chicago where several hundred tons
of wrought iron pipe is in use....The Grand Coulee Dam....Brooklyn's Huge New 
Marine Parkway Bridge (uses) wrought iron pier protection plates....West
Texas Oil Well tubing...

Personally I have found wrought iron: wagon tyres, punches, fences, railroad
spikes(OLD), farm equipment, bridge parts.  Once you learn how to recognize
it, it turns up all over. Unfortunatly the most common, (easiest to recognize),
are the lower grades--muck bar & singly refined. Yellin always specified
triply refined wrought iron, much easier to work!

They are tearing down a couple of old bridges around here and I am trying
to get some of wrought. Also the old state Pennitentary was built in 1840
and they are thinking about demolishing it as well. At the local flea
market I have been buying old wrought iron wood chisels with the ends
steeled for under $2 a piece.

Lastly; a group of people in our historical recreation group built a furnace
and made very LOW grade wrought iron using the direct reduction method!
(A lot of fun but the results make me think very fond thoughts of muck bar.)

Thomas Powers
Columbus, Ohio

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From: [email-masked] (william thomas powers)
Date: 7 Jan 1994 09:22:43 -0500

How to identify wrought iron: cut part of the way through a piece and then
"break it" the break will look like a broken piece of hickory wood.
  
Learn to see the "grain" in rusty pieces---step back and look at a piece,
if there seems to be "striations" in the rusting or pitting it may be wrought.
                            
>From _Formulas for Profit_, H.Bennett, 1939: To identify iron from steel:
mix 5 drops nitric acid with 10 drops water, (ALWAYS ACID INTO WATER, NEVER
WATER INTO ACID!!!!!!).  File a clean spot and place a drop on it. If it
is steel, it will turn black immediatly. If it is wrought or malleable iron
it will stay bright for a considerable length of time.

Follow the above at your own risk. 

Thomas Powers
Columbus Ohio

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From: [email-masked] (John Kopf, X6305)
Date: 7 Jan 1994 20:29:43 GMT

> Is it (the lack of) some strange ingredient or is it plainly the way

Wrought Iron ("WI") was the common form of iron UNTIL high-volume production
methods were developed (e.g., open-hearth, bessemer).

WHen smelting the ore, they didn't have the heat to completely liquify the
iron -- what they got was a "sponge" of iron with a lot of included slag.

This was removed from the furnace, and forged ("Wrought") into bars.  This
process caused a lot of the included slag to be squeezed out and lost;  the
remainder was in the form of inclusive "threads" (with the iron threads forge
welded together).  The result was a "composite" material containing both iron
AND slag.  If reforged, more slag was squeezed out (e.g., "triple-refined").

The included slag protects the iron from corrosion (when the surface rusts,
the rusting stops at the slag fibers -- hence the "wood-grain").  It also
allows higher temperatures to be reached in the forge, so the hot iron is
more maliable and more readily welded (the slag acts like a flux).

Moder iron is "pure" (no slag inclusions),

Hope this helps.

JK

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From: okunewck@pds16 (Phil OKunewick)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 22:18:28 GMT

> [ Much talk about wrought iron ]

   Central Pennsylvania had a big iron industry in the 1700's to
1800's.  All the necessary materials were readily available, iron ore,
limestone (for a reduction catalyst) and trees for charcoal.  Streams
were dammed and modified for hydro power, and canals were built
alongside streams for transportation.

   I believe the industry was killed by the steel industry of
Southwest PA, where water transportation is better and coal is
available.  (Isn't it ironic that the Southwest PA industry is
itself now dying out due to cheaper production elsewhere?)

   The ruins of this industry are all over central PA, slowly being
reclaimed by nature or overrun by civilization.  But you can still go
out to the ruins and see the furnace stacks, the foundations of the
refining hammer mills, and what's left of the canals.  A little
digging will turn up charcoal, slag, and occasional bits of iron.

   A few locations have been reconstructed by historical preservation
societies; Curtin Village (the old Eagle Iron Works) is restored
enough to get a very good idea of what the industry was like.
Greenwood Furnace has been turned into a park; the furnace itself has
been reconstructed to vaguely resemble its original self - more like a
monument than a furnace now.

   So if you find yourself in the neighborhood and are interested, a
visit to Curtin Village may be worth your while.  It's located about
20 miles northeast of Penn State University.

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From: [email-masked] (Andy Dingley)
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 10:48:12 +0000

It's important to remember how grades of wrought iron are classified. Using
the wrong grade is worse than trying to use black mild steel.

Wrought iron is initially produced as "merchant bar". This is the "pig iron"
of wrought iron, a very raw form of metal that's not much use for anything
except trading to metal refiners for further processing. It has a huge great
fibrous structure, with big slag intrusions.

To improve the quality of the iron, the bars are cut in half lengthways and
welded/rolled together again side-by-side. This makes the fibre structure
thinner and more regular. After one cycle of this it's called "single cut" or
"single shear". The process is usually done 1, 2 or 3 times, making a better
quality grade each time. For hand-forging sizes, triple shear is what you
need.

Merchant bar is thoroughly nasty stuff to work. Avoid. Wrought iron piping is
also a pretty nasty grade thats not much good for forgework.

   _                              Andy Dingley
 /  ) ' ,_  _,  /   _ ) _/_       Codesmiths of Newcastle
/_ / / / / (_) /_) (_)  /_        [email-masked]
          (_)                     +44 091 230 1695

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From: okunewck@pds16 (Phil OKunewick)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 19:06:13 GMT

>fibrous structure, with big slag intrusions.

Trivia:
   I was told that the term "pig iron" dates back to the iron furnace days.

   When the newly-refined iron was ready to be taken from the furnace,
pouring areas were dug in the sand around the furnace.  The furnace
was then opened and the molten iron flowed out of the furnace into
these molds.

   The flows and molds resembled piglets suckling on a mother pig,
hence the name "pig iron".  This would be the rawest form of iron,
full of all sorts or impurities and in need of further refinement.

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From: [email-masked] (John Kopf, X6305)
Date: 14 Jan 1994 20:14:09 GMT

> full of all sorts or impurities and in need of further refinement.

FOr an example, find an old "sash weight" the iron weight used to make sash
windows go up and down).  These are usually the cheapest form of iron, with
all sorts of inclusions and inhomogeuities -- miserable to work into anything
else  (say, that describes re-bar, doesn't it).

JK