Subject: Pure Lead out of Old Tire Weights?

From: [email-masked]
Date: 18 Jan 1994 14:22:29 -0600

Many bullets are cast out of old tire weights -- their Tin and Antimony
content seem pretty well suited for standard handgun/rifle bullets.  I am
trying to cast Blackpowder conicals and need to get as pure a lead as
possible.  Is there a managable way to melt out, burn off, skim away,
seperate the Tin and Antimony from tire weights to get a reasonably pure
lead????

I cast my bullets in a production pot that I have reasonable control temperaturewise.  Sometimes I cast them on the ol' stovetop if the wife is away :-)

Thanks for the help!!!

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From: [email-masked] (bill nelson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 00:13:26 GMT

[email-masked] writes:
: Many bullets are cast out of old tire weights -- their Tin and Antimony
: content seem pretty well suited for standard handgun/rifle bullets.  I am
: trying to cast Blackpowder conicals and need to get as pure a lead as
: possible.  Is there a managable way to melt out, burn off, skim away,
: seperate the Tin and Antimony from tire weights to get a reasonably pure
: lead????

I prefer the antimony in the lead - even for conical rifle bullets. The
extra hardness does not seem to hurt accuracy any.

Bill

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From: [email-masked] (Bill Webster)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 23:36:11 GMT

> I cast my bullets in a production pot that I have reasonable control temperaturewise.  Sometimes I cast them on the ol' stovetop if the wife is away :-)

Don't know about tire weights, but how pure are fishing lure weights?
Maybe you could use them instead.

Just a thought.

Bill Webster ([email-masked])

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From: [email-masked] (James W. Swonger)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 15:46:28 GMT

The only reliable source for pure lead I've found locally is one of those
stained glass craft places. I managed to pick up quite a bit of the lead
strip for cheap; it was somebody's special order that never got picked
up. My purpose is to melt it in with 60/40 solder (-very- available
as surplus at the recycling places) to end up with 30/70 bodywork-grade
solder (not available except at high prices).
-- 
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons  #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#

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From: [email-masked] (James Foster x2912)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 16:30:04 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bill Webster) writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
|> wrote:
|> > 
|> > Many bullets are cast out of old tire weights -- their Tin and Antimony
|> > content seem pretty well suited for standard handgun/rifle bullets.  I am
|> > trying to cast Blackpowder conicals and need to get as pure a lead as
|> > possible.  Is there a managable way to melt out, burn off, skim away,
|> > seperate the Tin and Antimony from tire weights to get a reasonably pure
|> > lead????
|> > 
|> > I cast my bullets in a production pot that I have reasonable control temperaturewise.  Sometimes I cast them on the ol' stovetop if the wife is away :-)
|> > 
|> > Thanks for the help!!!
|> 
|> Don't know about tire weights, but how pure are fishing lure weights?
|> Maybe you could use them instead.
|> 
|> Just a thought.
|> 
|> Bill Webster ([email-masked])

Yipes! Talk about robbing peter to pay paul! Fishing weights
aren't cheap.  I cast them in addition to bullets.  You can loose
a lot of walking sinkers fishing for walleyes in a rocky lake. As I wrote
to the original poster, if he needs the alloy to have the softness
of pure lead (around 5 BHN) then he'll have to buy some.  I was
able to get pure scrap lead for $0.30/lb.  For general bullet
casting wheel weights are almost ideal.  Since I don't shoot 
BP I don't know if they need to be much softer for some reason.

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From: [email-masked] (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Date: 20 Jan 1994 14:56:31 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] writes:
>From: [email-masked]
>Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
>Subject: Pure Lead out of Old Tire Weights?
>Date: 18 Jan 1994 14:22:29 -0600
>Organization: The University of Texas - Austin
>Lines: 12
>

 Yes.

 Melt the wheelweights as usual but do not flux the mix. Once everything is 
melted, stir lightly, fish out all the steel clips and other trash, then just 
leave the pot alone for about a half hour without stirring or otherwise 
disturbing it and the antimony and tin, being lighter than the lead, will 
rise to the top where it can be skimmed off and saved for addition to a batch 
later on when regular harder bullets are cast.

 Any left over dross will rise to the very top, the tin will be under this 
and will look like a grayish scum. The antimony will be under the tin and 
will look like a grayish powder.

 I do this regularly with no problem.

 Remember... If you do not flux the mixture you will end up with pure lead at 
the bottom of the pot.

 If you can dent (with your thumbnail) the conicals you've cast following this 
method they are soft enough to use.

-- 
	%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
        %     Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers.      %
        %                                                           %
        % The only way to ensure freedom?  Let every man be armed.  %
	%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From: [email-masked] (Basse)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 21:13:37 GMT

> solder (not available except at high prices).

This could get rather messy and/or hazardous but old auto batteries contain
a lot of lead along with sulfuric acid.  I haven't tried this but cut them 
open outdoors with lots of running water and thoroughly wash away the acid
remove the plates and melt them.  There will be lead sulfate present too but 
this will probably float as a solid on the surface of the molten lead and can 
be skimmed off.  Be sure and wear face protection when doing this and old 
clothing because it will likely be splashed by acid during this operation.
Rubber or other acid proof gloves are also advisable.  If you decide to do
this be CAREFUL!!!  I'm not responsible for accidents or injury but the lead
should be fairly pure.

--
Hank Basse      | IBM internal: basse@basse
512 838-1442    | [email-masked]
Only my opinion.| [email-masked]

 --

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From: [email-masked] (Clive Washington)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 13:20:29 +0000

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Clark
Towle Gunsmith) wrote:

> will look like a grayish powder.

I'm amazed that this works.  I thought these metals were miscible in the
melt,
so they wouldn't separate like this.  Maybe the miscibility is temperature-
dependent.  Anybody got a phase diagram?

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From: [email-masked] (bill nelson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 20:19:37 GMT

[email-masked] (Clive Washington) writes:
: > 
: >  Any left over dross will rise to the very top, the tin will be under this 
: > and will look like a grayish scum. The antimony will be under the tin and 
: > will look like a grayish powder.
: 
: I'm amazed that this works.  I thought these metals were miscible in the
: melt,
: so they wouldn't separate like this.  Maybe the miscibility is temperature-
: dependent.  Anybody got a phase diagram?

They will not separate completely, but some of the tin will oxidize. I am
not sure about the antimony.

You could distill off the lead, but even that would not be pure.

Bill

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From: [email-masked] (John De Armond)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 20:30:20 GMT

>this be CAREFUL!!!  I'm not responsible for accidents or injury but the lead

It works better just to smelt 'em in place.  Smelting reduces the lead
sulfate to lead so the recovery is much better.  Here's how I used to
do it (and may still :-)

With a small pickax or similar implement, poke holes in each cell of
the battery.  Stash it someone convenient like a ditch to drain.
The acid is corrosive but typically not terribly strong in heavily
sulfated batteries typical of dead ones.

Using firebrick, build a square box about 18" to the side and about
a foot tall.  Leave a small door on one side through which air can
be blown.  Fill this box with charcoal.  Sit a battery atop the pile.
Build a firebrick chimney around the battery so that an inch or so of charcoal
can be stacked on all sides of the battery.  Fairly heavily dust the
battery with slaked lime.  Stack anohter couple of inches of charcoal on
top of the battery.  Then repeat this process until you have 4 or 5
batteries stacked up.  Ignite the charcoal in the bottom with fluid or
whatever and apply a strong draft of air to the opening.  Ignite the
charcoal in several places around the batteries with a propane
torch stuck through the bricks.

The reducing agent is carbon monoxide which is produced as the charcoal
burns incompletely.  The pale blue flame that burns from the top
of this stack is the excess CO.  You want the fire to be fairly hot
in order to activate the reducing reaction but you also want it 
to burn oxygen starved to produce lots of CO.  The very hot fire in
the bottom provides the heat and the charcoal around and atop the 
batteries provides the reducing environment.  Lime is the flux.

When you have this thing cooking right there will be a pale yellow,
partially opaque, very choking smoke emerging from the top of the
furnace.  These are the various oxides of sulfur.  It will burn the 
lungs and defoliate trees.  Stay upwind.  Sure it's environmentally 
politically incorrect so if it bothers you, don't do it.

When this thing burns out and you unstack the firebricks you will find
a nice solid pool of lead and a bunch of scuzz.  The scuzz is moderately
toxic because it contains the residual lead sulfates and oxides.  Either
bury or bag it for disposal and wear a respirator (NOT a dustmask).
The lead will contain some cadmium and maybe some calcium if from 
maintenance-free batteries but that can be scavenged as previously
mentioned.  The lead recovery rate from this process is very high,
much higher than merely melting the plates.

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC, Marietta, GA    [email-masked] 
"Would you fire on US Citizens while in the process of confiscating their guns?"
    A question on a survey given to members of the U.S. counterterrorist 
    unit Navy SEAL Team Six by their commanders last September.

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From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 13:56:06 EST

Smelting Whole Batteries-  Hmm let's see how many potential problems
with this approach.
           1) Draining acid into groundwater
           2) Lot's of nasty sulfur fumes
           3) Most probably lots and lots of lead fumes
      I'm all for DIY projects, but this just sounds like a REAL bad idea.  I
would put this past being politcally incorrect.  I feel this would be very
environmentally unsound, pretty dangerous without the right sort of protective
gear and almost definitely illegal (both water and air pollution) in most
places.  Remember, old batteries are categorized as hazardous wastes for
good reasons.
I hate to flame anyones response, but this just seems to be a bad idea.
                                               Mike
I just don't imagine one will save all that much $$.

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Mitchell)
Date: 20 Jan 94 15:50:35 GMT

>solder (not available except at high prices).

Warning - I am posting from memory here.

One source I found for pure lead was Plumber's solder, from a plumbing	
supply house.
My best supply was old window weights from a scrap metal dealer.
When I was casting lead bullets, I found wheel weights to be way too	
high in antimony.  Very hard for black powder.
Lyman has a formula (#2) for lead mixture for casting;it seems perfect.
"Lead free" solder is about 99%+ tin, and is also available
at a plumbing supply house.

Lyman #2 is a mixture of all three, and should be described in any of 
their publications.

 - Robert Mitchell

-- 
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DDD:   408-746-8491  Fax: 408-725-8638
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From: [email-masked] (John De Armond)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 05:41:28 GMT

>           1) Draining acid into groundwater

Why do you environuts always assume that anything that hits the surface
of the ground instantly pops through 60 ft (in my area) to reach
the groundwater?  And have you ever noticed that when you pour acid
on the ground it bubbles?  That's a neutralization reaction with the 
limestone and other goodies in the soil.  Voila!  No acid.

>           2) Lot's of nasty sulfur fumes

yep.  Smells Goooood.

>           3) Most probably lots and lots of lead fumes

Unless you can trace the synthesys of some sort of organolead (think we
could make tetraethyl lead) compounds, nope.  There may be some lead
oxide aerosol.  THAT is why you don't sniff the chimney.

>places.  Remember, old batteries are categorized as hazardous wastes for

So's motor oil.  Nothing said this crap has to make sense.

>I hate to flame anyones response, but this just seems to be a bad idea.

Then don't do it.  But it sure works for me.

John

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From: [email-masked] (Michael A. Shaffer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 17:41:05 GMT

>I just don't imagine one will save all that much $$.

You may be right but it is probably good to stash away for that rainy
day when they ban ammo and reloading components. This is Joe Cool for
Channel 5 news. Police are at a loss to explain the recent rash of
thefts. Theives have been stealing batteries and wheel weights from
parked cars. Police suspect some type of Fraternaty initiation requirememnt.
 :-}

				mike