Subject: Small Torches for Silversmithing

From: [email-masked] (Neil R. Marsh)
Date: 16 Nov 1993 18:02:03 -0800

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:

> 
> I am just getting into silversmithing and am trying to do it on a 
> tight budget.  The other day I was in a Radio Shack store where I
> saw a very small butane torch.  It was about 4 inches tall 
> and took a cartridge refil.
> 
> My question is, are these torches suitable for soldering small
> items, like jewelry?  

        I haven't tried one, but the short answer I'll give you is no.
I see two problems with them.  They don't sound too versatile and I'd 
guess they're expensive to operate.

        They may work fine on a very small piece, but silver soaks up 
heat like a sponge soaks up water.  The work itself is going to be 
drawing heat from the joint as fast as that little flame can pour it
in and you'll play hell trying to get it hot enough.  Probably work for 
attaching a bail or soldering jump-rings, but I doubt it would be much 
good if you wanted to sweat something down to a backing piece.  

        Also, those little CO2 cartridge-sized gas bottles have got to
be expensive.  If you only use it once in a while it might be okay, but
silver work ain't like that.  :)

        I use a Bernz-O-Matic propane-torch-on-a-hose with a "pencil 
flame" tip (which is still pretty coarse) that cost about $40 a couple 
of years ago.  Atmosphere-acetylene works well too but it's messy (black 
soot) and you have to buy or lease a tank.  Since my shop is inside my 
house, I'm not sure I want that much bottled gas in there.  I stock up 
on propane bottles when they go on sale (and store them away from where 
I use 'em), that helps keep fuel prices down.  

        One of these days I'm going to shell out for a "Little Torch" oxy-
propane setup.  If you want the names of a few suppliers, let me know.

Cheers!
Neil
Proprietor, Some Sort of Silversmith

--
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Neil Marsh  [email-masked] -or- [email-masked]  Chehalis, WA USA

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From: [email-masked] (Mark Forbes)
Date: 17 Nov 1993 07:35:42 GMT

Well, I just got my 'Little Torch', and it's *great*!!! The #1 tip is a 3mil
hole in a sapphire, and you can't light it with a spark lighter because it's
so small. At full throttle it puts out a flame about 1/8 inch long. The neat
thing is that the flame is perfectly formed, and hot as a regular welding
torch flame. When I put on the large tip (#5), I get a flame about the same
size as the #00 (smallest) tip produces on my big torch.

It's only about $80 from Rio Grande Albuquerque, and you get the torch
and five tips. If you've already got oxyacetlyene, it's a great addition.

Mark G. Forbes | [email-masked]
Corvallis, OR  | 503 754 3104 home phone    | Hardware R & D
"Never ascribe to malice that which can be blamed on the engineer."

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From: [email-masked] (Eric R. Hugo)
Date: 17 Nov 1993 12:56:49 GMT

Dear Metalworkers,
     I've done a fair amt of silversmithing and for this work
I've found that a micro butane/micronox (nitrous oxide, I think)
torch can be very useful albiet expensive to operate.  For most of
my hard soldering operations (with EZ flow solder (mp around 1150 ))
I use a std propane torch and MAPP gas with the work supported
on a magnesia block (very heat reflective).  For very fine
work like attaching pin findings and soldering jump rings I
break out the Radio Shack microtorch.  Since I went to the smaller
torch I've stopped burning up clasps and thin wire work.
                                             Eric
--
  Eric R. Hugo, Postdoctoral Research Associate [email-masked]
  Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biophysics|finger above for            
  Washington University School of Medicine      |public key <-- 
  Box 8231, St. Louis, MO 63110_________________| (314) 362-3342

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From: [email-masked] (boris)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 19:52:43 +0000

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:

>Greetings,
**Sounds a bit on the small side to me,i use a variety of flame sizes for all
  types of size work,you need some device for heat retention such as a wig or
  a charcoal block ,so build a little stove to maintain your heat,also dont
  forget that solders come in different melting temperatures,you have 
  extra easy,easy,medium,hard,enameling ,extra easy is the lowest temp.
- 

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From: [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth)
Date: 18 Nov 1993 14:00:08 GMT

>My question is, are these torches suitable for soldering small

If it's one of those that takes a little butane cartridge, I'd stay
away from it.  The shut off valves never work very well on those so
you end up having all the butane leak out before you get around to using
it again.  They also don't put out a lot of heat.

For $20-$30 you can get a nice piezo ignitor refillable butane torch that
puts out enough heat for silver soldering jewelry sized items.  You use
can of butane designed for cigarette lighters to refill it.  Burns about
40 minutes on a charge.  The one I have has been extremely useful for 
small stuff.  A lot of places carry these now, although when they first
came out only places like Brookstone had them.

Someday I'll get one of those oxy-acetylene micro torches; those look
like the ultimate small torch.

-- 
Paul Amaranth  Manager User Services - office: (313) 370 4541 (also voicemail)
(internet)     [email-masked]  | Amaranth's Law of Economics:
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From: [email-masked] (Soren LaForce)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 16:39:00 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth) writes...
>>and took a cartridge refil.

I'd avoid it.  I had one many years ago.  Not enough heat.

Several years ago I bought a MAPP gas torch from sears for about $20.
It came with a large and small "tip."  It gets hot enough to braze 
a wing nut onto a 3/8" bolt.  Just barely hot enough.  Takes a looong 
time.

On the other hand, it is noticably better than propane/butane.  With
the small tip, I think it would do well for your application.

It's also a **far** cry from oxy-accetalene.

One thing to be careful of is thinking that for soldering small things
you don't need a lot of heat.  You don't want to melt your work, but 
you also want to heat the work area quickly.  With a low heat torch,
you will heat a lot more of your piece.  This is a problem if there 
is another solder joint nearby, as it will melt.  The best setup
is probably an aircraft welding rig (oxy-accetalene).

--Soren            [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Howard Rebel)
Date: 19 Nov 1993 14:20:59 GMT

I suggest that you use oxy-propane.  The propane is much cleaner burning then
accetalene.  Another advantage is that you do not need the as much eye protection
when viewing the propane flame.  Most any welding supply can adapt a regulator
to a 20 lb propane tank.

Howard

Soren LaForce ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth) writes...
: >In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Marc Edgar) writes:
: >>I am just getting into silversmithing and am trying to do it on a 
: >>tight budget.  The other day I was in a Radio Shack store where I
: >>saw a very small butane torch.  It was about 4 inches tall 
: >>and took a cartridge refil.

: I'd avoid it.  I had one many years ago.  Not enough heat.

: Several years ago I bought a MAPP gas torch from sears for about $20.
: It came with a large and small "tip."  It gets hot enough to braze 
: a wing nut onto a 3/8" bolt.  Just barely hot enough.  Takes a looong 
: time.

: On the other hand, it is noticably better than propane/butane.  With
: the small tip, I think it would do well for your application.

: It's also a **far** cry from oxy-accetalene.

: One thing to be careful of is thinking that for soldering small things
: you don't need a lot of heat.  You don't want to melt your work, but 
: you also want to heat the work area quickly.  With a low heat torch,
: you will heat a lot more of your piece.  This is a problem if there 
: is another solder joint nearby, as it will melt.  The best setup
: is probably an aircraft welding rig (oxy-accetalene).

: --Soren            [email-masked]

--
Howard Rebel [email-masked]
FAX: 719-590-5701

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From: [email-masked] (Neil R. Marsh)
Date: 19 Nov 1993 09:36:37 -0800

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:

> is another solder joint nearby, as it will melt.  

        A MAJOR pain.  Another is discoloration of the metal if you 
have to keep it hot too long.  A big pink copper-splotch on the back
of an otherwise nice piece is real discouraging.  Again, you need a
torch that can dump heat into the joint faster than the sterling can
soak it off.

        Going back over these threads, related e-mail, and my own 
experiences, I'm going to say that your torch is probably your single
most important tool.  You can make up for deficiencies in others, but
an inadequate torch will prevent you turning out professional results
(or at least make it require a lot more finish work).

        I'm tired of polishing out big pink copper-splotches.  My 
checkbook and I are gonna take my own advice and go get a Little Torch 
today.

Cheers!
Neil

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From: [email-masked] (Paul Wallich)
Date: 19 Nov 1993 17:07:20 -0500

>it again.  They also don't put out a lot of heat.

I've found (sample of two, of course) that the valves on teeny microtorch
gizmos don't seem to stand up, and that losing your fuel is among the
nicer things that can happen. More worrisome is that a leak around the
valve stem, coupled with a spark (or stray flame/heat), can start a
small but very dangerous fire.

paul

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From: [email-masked] (R.C. Jones)
Date: 22 Nov 93 16:41:27 GMT

It dosen't work well for anything greater than jump rings. It's
not expensive though; $2.00 of butane lasts ~ 20. hours.
I don't recommend the butane/oxygen rig at ~ $40. as the oxygen
lasts about 7 minutes and tends to leak empty over a short time.
ie. can be expensive. If you can get a set of secondhand bottles,
the little torch from Smith is wizard good.     

-- 
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From: Jim Jaskie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 19:11:53 GMT

Since I haven't seen anyone comment on a type of torch that I think is
the absolute best, I'll throw my three cents in (inflation).

We have a small torch that uses Hydrogen and Oxygen for the fuel.  These 
gases are supplied by a small box with a water tank and some electrodes
that electrolyze the water.

The flame, while small, puts out an astonishing amount of heat.  And it
is very, very, clean.  It is clear that in a normal Carbon based (Butane,
Propane, Acetylene, ...)  gas there is some contamination, however
slight, that hinders the wetting of silver solder and other brazes.  With
the Hydrogen/Oxygen torch, the wetting is much nicer, smoother, and
easier.  We have brazed many things with the torch that were almost
impossible with a MAPP gas/Oxygen torch from the local home center.  The
flame is almost invisible.  It has none of the bright yellow (from Sodium
impurities) that makes working in regular flames almost impossible (at
least without duodymium glasses) or any of the Carbon soot incandescence
that also lights up most flames.  There are also no pollutants formed to
stink up the lab, as the combustion products are just water, not those
dreadful black angels from acethylene/air, or less visible ones from
other gases.

The frosting, if you will, is that we don't have gas cylinders sitting
around leaking away.  Those things always bother me a little, because
they seem to be waiting to turn a small disaster like a fire into a large
catastrophe like an explosion.  With this H2/O2 torch, you just flip off
the power (it uses 110v out of an ordinary outlet).  You also never run
out, as long as there is water near by and you've paid the electric bill.
 At any rate, highly recommended, the right way to do a small torch.

-jim

Labor disgraces no man, but occasionally men disgrace labor.
- Ulysses S. Grant

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From: [email-masked] (Neil R. Marsh)
Date: 23 Nov 1993 04:55:11 -0800

> that electrolyze the water.

        I'd love to have one, but at $900 a pop it's gonna be a while.
--
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Neil Marsh  [email-masked] -or- [email-masked]  Chehalis, WA USA
-- 
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Neil Marsh  [email-masked] -or- [email-masked]  Chehalis, WA USA