Subject: Re: Buying a Mill - advice needed

From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Feb 94 11:35:50 PST

In article <[email-masked]>, 
[email-masked] (Paul Jones) writes:

> I am currently working at buying a floor standing knee mill from Enco
> (model 100-5201) which is the same type as Grizzly A1SA(?) and is also
> sold by Toolcrib of the North.  While Grizzly's price is the best, Enco
> will match it.  This mill has almost all of the desired features
> mentioned in the HSM series on buying a mill, especially the knee,
> daylight, fine-feed, adjustable gibs, and central lubrication.  I have
> personally examined the mill in their showroom and it seems to be a very
> well-made mill, although I didn't indicate any of the alignments. 

This same (basically) mill is also sold by Jet.   The difference
between the three seems to be in the "fit and finish", manuals, and
customer support.

I would place Grizzly a small step above Enco and Jet another step
above Grizzly (but at a big increase in price).   I have no direct
experience with Jet, but they have a very good reputation.   Grizzly is
very good with customer support and their manuals are much better
than Enco's.   The local Enco people are little more than sales
clerks, so getting technical answers is almost impossible.

> My problem is that the only place I have to put the mill is in the basement,
> which means that it will have to be disassembled which, understandably,
> Enco says will void the warranty.
> Does anyone have any experience of this kind with this particular mill
> or with disassembling/reassembling any mill?

> I am not as much worried about the warranty as I am messing up the
> front/back alignment between the head and the table (the head does tilt
> right/left by design and so can be trammed in that direction)

I own an Enco 100-5200, the made-in-Taiwan version of the one
you are thinking of (made in China, I believe).   The front/back
alignment is off by several thousandths between the front and back
of the table.   There is no way (that I can see) to adjust it without
removing the head from the column and shimming it -- not something
casually done.   However, if you are going to be removing the head
anyway, you have a golden opportunity to set things right!
I, also, would appreciate advice from anyone who has done this.

I bought the machine used (for $1500) and got two friends to
help bring it home.   We rented an auto engine hoist and a
small U-Haul trailer with tall sides.   We put a sling around 
the head/ram just fore and aft of the column.   The hoist was
just barely tall enough to lift it high enough to get it
into the trailer, and was right at (or beyond) its weight limit.
We got it home and unloaded without incident.   Final 
positioning was done using pieces of water pipe as rollers.

I strongly urge you to purchase the adjustable feet and install
them before you set it down.   Don't bother trying to get 
touch-up paint from Enco.   I wrote to them and only received 
a list of mechanical parts (with no prices) in return.

My main objections to the mill (besides the above gripes) are
vibration (especially at higher speeds) and the lack of a really
slow speed (290 RPM is the lowest).   The quill gets very warm
after running for any length of time.   I don't know if this
indicates any kind of a problem or not.   The lamp is a piece of
crap which you will want to replace the first time you use it.
Other than that, it seems to be a decent machine for non-precision
use.

If anyone has any ideas on how to improve the vibration in
this mill, please let us know.   I am enough of a beginner
to be afraid of disassembling that area of the machine
without words of encouragement from someone who has done it.

--  Alan E. Frisbie               [email-masked]
--  Flying Disk Systems, Inc.
--  4759 Round Top Drive          (213) 256-2575 (voice)
--  Los Angeles, CA 90065         (213) 258-3585 (FAX)

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From: [email-masked] (Greg Lewis)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 01:38:45 GMT

Two thoughts:
1. You should consider hiring a commercial machinery mover to get that
sucker down the stairs. A mistake in judgement could be fatal.

2. There was a two-part article in two recent issued of the Home Shop
Machinist on buying a mill. There were some good pointers in there. 

Bonus thought: I have heard many complaints about the imported
machines and have been unimpressed with what I have seen in showrooms.
A pro machinist once told me he and his friends consider them
consumable items, bought for the jobs at hand and scrapped when they
wear out.  I decided to take my time and buy a good used but not
abused American-made machine. I looked for about a year and found a
good one at a reasonable price. It is accurate and I am very happy. If
your need is a hobby one and time is not an issue, you might consider
that route.

___________________________________________________________________
[email-masked]
Photojournalism sequence, Department of Mass Communication and Journalism
CSU Fresno, Fresno, CA 93740-0010

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From: [email-masked] (Paul Jones)
Date: 10 Feb 1994 04:37:02 GMT

>I am currently working at buying a floor standing knee mill from Enco
[...]
>My problem is that the only place I have to put the mill is in the basement,
[...]
>or with disassembling/reassembling any mill?

This is a great newsgroup!  I'm glad I found it.
And a big thanks to all who have posted responses and sent e-mail.

I have subsequently spoken to Enco and they say that the column cannot
be separated from the base and together they weigh about 700 lbs.
The head and table will come off and they offered to let me be present
so they could show me how to take it apart.

Among my options are:

	1) Give up (haha!)
	2) Buy a new house (hahahaha!)
	3) Buy a small mill ( :-( )
	4) Remodel the garage (rather long term)
	5) Get professional help

#5 looks to be the best bet.  A local mover here has a lot of experience
with machine tools and heavy stuff and says as long as the stairs will
hold it and it fits through the door, they can get it down there.  I
would have to make very careful measurements and even maybe build a wood
frame mockup.  The stairs can be easily reinforced from beneath with
4x4s.  Even though the hall is narrow and there is a tight turn at the
bottom, I think it will go.  The drawback is the expense, especially if
the mover goes to Chicago to pick it up...but if they get it here
safely, it'll be worth it. 

If I put the mill in the garage, I can have it shipped whole and hire
a forklift to come out and take it off...but I'll have to remodel the garage.

Anyway, I have a lot of thinking to do...and thanks for all the suggestions.
I will post my results if I do something.

------
Paul Jones,  Motorola MCG                           [email-masked]
1101 E. University Ave.                             Voice: (217) 384-8529
Urbana, IL 61801, USA                               FAX:   (217) 384-8550

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From: [email-masked] (Paul Jones)
Date: 10 Feb 1994 12:43:23 GMT

[email-masked] (f.w.kerfoot..iii) writes:

>From article <[email-masked]>, by [email-masked] (Paul Jones):
>> ...
>I disassembled a Series 1 Bridgeport to get it down a set of wooden steps
>into my basement. I can't see anything about the disassembly process
>which should change the basic accuracy of the machine. Both the side-side
>and the fore-aft head tilts (I am assuming the mill you want to buy is

This mill, unfortunately tilts only left/right...there is another
recent post stating that this mill is off by a few thou front/back...
but I'm sure that varies per unit.

>Removing the bed, saddle and knee involve removing the adjustable gibbs.
>Incorrect adjustment on assembly could lead to slop (if loose), or
>premature wear (if too tight). This may be where Enco sees the warranty
>problem. Just for curiosity, what do they warrant it against? (do they
>warrant a level of accuracy, or a service life? I would be surprised.)
[...]

I will have to ask them what that means...

>By the way, how does Enco deal with the situation when a professional
>rigger does a partial disassembly to install one of their mills?
>I would expect that removing the bed to fit through a doorway would
>be relatively common, even in an industrial environment.

Don't know...they didn't say anything about it so perhaps they
don't do it that often. I think they expect to ship this model whole.

Thanks

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From: [email-masked] (Paul Jones)
Date: 10 Feb 1994 12:57:49 GMT

[...]

>clerks, so getting technical answers is almost impossible.

This is largely true. There is one guy in the Chicago show room (Greg)
that really knows his stuff and, if he's still there, Bob at the Tempe, AZ
showroom is actually a machinist.  One of the girls in Chicago just
recently completed a shop course.  Another one there can answer no technical
questions at all.  Their one and only overworked engineer seems impatient...
I would imagine especially with amateurs.  The answers I received
from the actual person who would disassemble the mill (relayed by
showroom staff) were the most informative.

The manual I saw with this mill was *awful*...could hardly even be
called a manual. If I were a professional, I would probably not
bother with this one.  As an amateur this is probably the most bang/buck
I can get, all things considered.

[...]

[...]

[...]

Thanks for your good information.  Actually, this is the very mill I'm
looking at.  The slightly different number denotes a package.  If I go
through with this I'll report my results....but it sounds like I'll have
to shim it with gold leaf... 

Paul Jones

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