Subject: industry "high carbon steel"

From: [email-masked] (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey)
Date: 5 Oct 1994 20:57:16 GMT

This is, I hope, a trivial quetion.  What does a company generaly mean
when they say "high carbon steel" in the desxcription of a knife?  I'm 
assuming 10-something (10-50 maybe?) but I don't know.  I figure it might
just be used as a generic word to mask generic steel.  If anyone knows, or 
has good examples, I'd like to hear about it.  The company I'm currently
questioning is "Museum Replicas Limited", sometimes they give a steel
description, sometimes the don't (allthough the woman on their 800 line said
they are hardened to between 53-63 (? if I recall correctly) rc. 

-- 
		   Roy "[email-masked]" Corey

	"Communication is the staple of an advanced society"

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From: [email-masked] (Bob DeMers)
Date: 6 Oct 1994 09:03:10 CDT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Roy "Gary

> they are hardened to between 53-63 (? if I recall correctly) rc. 
The steel in a "Museum Replicas" blade probably varies from blade type to
blade type and maybe from blade to blade.  They obtain their stock from a
variety of sources:  Pakistan, Spain, etc.  A local company, "Arms and
Armor" made some blades for them a year or two ago.  I know these guys. 
They certainly know how to make excellent blades, but for this type of
deal, they are not too particular about what material they use.  Also,
they tend to just grind their blades from blanks either cut from barstock
or stamped from sheets.  They don't have the time to forge blades.  They
make more money by keeping the price down and selling in volume.  

Bob

-- 
Bob DeMers 
Honeywell Technology Center
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (David Falk)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:44:51 GMT

Tim Nye ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey) writes:

: >   This is, I hope, a trivial quetion.  What does a company generaly mean
: >when they say "high carbon steel" in the desxcription of a knife?  I'm 
: >assuming 10-something (10-50 maybe?) but I don't know.  I figure it might
: >just be used as a generic word to mask generic steel.  
:
: Usually that term is applied to something like an AISI (or SAE) 1080 plain 
: carbon steel (which is approx. 0.80% carbon).  Mild steel usually refers to 
: something like a 1020 (0.20% C) and medium carbon is in-between.

"High carbon" is a generic term used for steels with 0.05% Carbon or greater.
It can refer to simple carbon steel, but I have seen it used to describe
a variety of alloy steels that also have a high carbon content.

: If there were any significant alloys besides carbon, they would refer to it 
: as an alloy steel rather than carbon steel because alloy steel is, in 
: general, better and more expensive.

Well, they might call it "alloy" steel.  Where I live, simple carbon tool
steel costs more than alloy steel.  However, it is safer for a company to
use "high carbon" steel rather than "alloy" steel.  Simply put, any high
carbon steel will make a decent blade whereas not all alloy steels make 
good blade (e.g. 5160).

: For a marketer, just calling it 'high carbon steel' is probably makes life 
: easier because they can then use whatever crap comes in at the cheapest 
: price as long as the carbon content is, say, 0.6% or more.

This is true enough.

: A 1080 steel can be hardened to Rockwell 50-60 C, but it tends to be 
: brittle and won't tolerate much shock loading.  I believe files are just 
: plain high carbon steel, for instance.  Alloys can be used to increase the 
: toughness of a steel.

This is not quite true.  1080 can bear a great amount of shock depending
on how the blade is made.  The closest modern alloy to that used in
Japanese swords was 1090.  And very few blades have to withstand more
shock than a sword.  As for files, some are simple carbon steel, others
are merely case hardened.  However, I do recommend alloys.  I, personally, 
use O-1 tool steel almost exclusively in my blades.  

As for museum replicas, I should think that unless you happen to be a
museum curator, you should avoid replicas.  Replicas are made to look
like weapons but will not perform as the originals.  This is especially
true with high impact weapons.  A sword for example is not just a long
blade with a handle.  There are special construction features that 
must be adhered to in order for the weapon to behave as it is supposed 
to.  For example, you can make a short sword by hollow-cutting bar stock 
and get away with it provided that you use a proper steel.  However, a 
longer sword will probably snap if it was constructed like this.  Also,
many museum replicas are improperly heat treated or not hardened at all.
And, many replicas are chromed to cover the shoddy metal they're using
as well as save time and labor on polishing.  However, real swords are 
expensive.  Real swords will start at about $400 and can go up to tens
of thousands.

Hope it helps...

Dave.
-- 
David Falk, Technical Specialist, SoftQuad Inc.  <[email-masked]>  
<!ENTITY Subliminal_Message    "Do a Nice Thing for Someone Today"  >
*My opinions do not represent those of SoftQuad Inc.*            IRC: Sutekh 
****KIMAGURE ORANGE ROAD... FOREVER*****when in Rome, act like a Romulan****

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From: [email-masked] (Tim Nye)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:14:25 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Roy "Gary Seven" Corey) writes:

>just be used as a generic word to mask generic steel.  

Usually that term is applied to something like an AISI (or SAE) 1080 plain 
carbon steel (which is approx. 0.80% carbon).  Mild steel usually refers to 
something like a 1020 (0.20% C) and medium carbon is in-between.

If there were any significant alloys besides carbon, they would refer to it 
as an alloy steel rather than carbon steel because alloy steel is, in 
general, better and more expensive.

For a marketer, just calling it 'high carbon steel' is probably makes life 
easier because they can then use whatever crap comes in at the cheapest 
price as long as the carbon content is, say, 0.6% or more.

A 1080 steel can be hardened to Rockwell 50-60 C, but it tends to be 
brittle and won't tolerate much shock loading.  I believe files are just 
plain high carbon steel, for instance.  Alloys can be used to increase the 
toughness of a steel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Nye                            "Duct Tape: The handyman's secret weapon"
University of Waterloo                          - Steve Smith, aka Red Green

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From: [email-masked] (Barry Workman)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 23:05:53 GMT

>	"Communication is the staple of an advanced society"

High carbon steel has a high carbon content.  This allows for proper
hardening and tempering of the steel.  Mild steel does not harden well.
The numbers they gave you, 53-63 are probably Rockwell hardness index
numbers.
-- 
    - Barry Workman