Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.boats.building

From: [email-masked] (Brian Dixon)
Date: 12 Aug 1994 20:35:46 -0400

Hello Everyone,

  Support has really been strong for the creation of rec.boats.building,
and many people have mentioned how much they are looking forward to its
creation.  Scan down to the changes and additions section to see the
one minor addition and one minor change that was made, or if it's your
first gander at it, have fun reading it!  Oh, and thanks for the additional
newsgroups that people have suggested for cross-posting the RFD to...but
please read the comment in the cross-posting section below.

2nd Formal REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION

This is the 2nd formal Request For Discussion (RFD) of the creation of the
newsgroup of rec.boats.building.  All responses and discussion should be
directed to the newsgroup called news.groups.  Please do not cross post to
other groups.  Groups receiving this RFD are listed below in the section
entitled CROSS POSTINGS.

This is not a Call For Votes (CFV).  A call for votes will be issued
to the same groups in which this message appears in 21 to 30 days from
the date that this message first appears.  Voting will then be handled
by a neutral third party.  Predicted voting period: 9/4/94 - 10/4/94 if 
all goes well.

The goals of the Request For Discussion are three:

1) Finalize a name for the group,
2) Finalize a charter for the group,
3) Finalize a decision on whether the group is to be moderated or
   unmoderated.

Here we go...

ADDITIONS & CHANGES:

  As a result of the first RFD, here are the additions and changes that
people have asked for (changes are marked with a '*' character):

  - Add "sharing of sources for materials and supplies, and feedback from
    the usage of these supplies"
  - Add mention of alternative building techniques such as canvas & frame etc.
  - Remove "engine repair" from the "engine selection and repair" statement
    since it probably best belongs in rec.boats as a more general topic.

AGREEMENTS:

  As a result of the first RFD, here's what seems to be agreed to so far:

  - Name: rec.boats.building
  - Charter: OK as it is if the above additions and changes are made
  - Moderation: OK to keep it unmoderated

THE 2ND RFD:

                  Group Name: rec.boats.building
                      Status: unmoderated
                Distribution: worldwide
                     Summary: Discussion of all aspects of boat building,
                              restoration, and repair
         Group Proposal From: Brian Dixon, [email-masked], or
                              [email-masked]

2ND CHARTER:

  Here's the charter with the proposed changes and additions:

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.boatbuilding will be open to
discussion of all aspects of boat building and boat repair including:

 - Topics directly or closely related to the building, restoration, and
   repair of boats:
   - Building, restoration, and repair in all materials:
     - wood, 
     - metal,
     - composite,
     - fiberglass,
     - glues, epoxies and resins
     - boat finishes and finishing (including brightwork)
     - general materials issues (choices, problems, etc)
     - techniques (woodworking, cold molding, steaming, rotational molding,
       welding etc)
     * alternative building techniques (stitch & glue, glue & screw, canvas &
       frame, etc)
     * sources of materials and supplies and the associated feedback of using
       them
   - All varieties of boats being built, restored, or repaired: 
     - human powered (rowing, sculling, paddling etc)
     - powered
     - sailed
   * Engine selection
   - Sail construction and repair
   - Sail rig selection
   - Information about boat designers (sources of custom work, designs and
     plans, experiences, contact information etc)
   - Information about boat builders, restorers, and repairers (sources,
     experiences, contact information etc)
   - Announcements of launchings and get togethers etc.

RATIONALE & BACKGROUND

There is a broad based interest in boat building, restoration, and repair
that stretches across several newsgroups.  Questions and comments concerning
boat building, restoration, and repair are posted in high-traffic newsgroups
such as rec.boats, rec.boats.paddle, rec.woodworking (etc).  Much of the
building/repair discussion in a given group is of interest to readers of the
other newsgroups.  This new newsgroup would provide a forum for several
related newsgroups to interact in an area of common concern.  A forum not
unduly crowded by the many many other posts found in the above mentioned
newsgroups.  This is a normal evolution of newsgroups hierarchies, i.e. a
newsgroup becomes extremely popular to the point of becoming unwieldy in
one respect or another and then splinter groups are formed to provide needed
focus on popular subjects.

CROSS POSTINGS

This RFD is being posted to the following newsgroups for discussion.  Note
that others have been requested to be posted to, but due to the LOONG list
that I've provided already the additional newsgroups will not be given a
copy of the RFD directly.  If a Usenet reader cross-posts the RFD his/herself,
then just make sure you place news.groups (only!) as the followup newsgroup:

                     Newsgroup 
                    -----------   
                     news.announce.newgroups
                     news.groups
                     alt.fishing
                     rec.boats
                     rec.boats.paddle
                     rec.crafts.metalworking
                     rec.hunting
                     rec.outdoors.fishing
                     rec.sport.rowing
                     rec.woodworking

-- 
Brian Dixon, Machine Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon)
503-715-3143 (wk), [email-masked] (email). "Opinions & attitudes are mine!"

---

From: [email-masked] (Jay Maynard)
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:17:18 -0400

RESULT
              unmoderated group rec.boats.building passes 389:31

There were 389 YES votes and 31 NO votes, for a total of 420 valid votes.
There was 1 abstain and 22 invalid ballots.

For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.  If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of
news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter.

Newsgroups line:
rec.boats.building	Boat building, design, restoration, and repair

Voting closed  23:59:59 UTC, 28 September 1994.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting questions
only, contact the votetaker, Jay Maynard, at
[email-masked].  For questions about the proposed group,
contact the proponent, Brian Dixon, at [email-masked].

CHARTER

                  Group Name: rec.boats.building
                      Status: unmoderated
                Distribution: worldwide
                     Summary: Discussion of all aspects of boat building,
                              design, restoration, and repair
         Group Proposal From: Brian Dixon, [email-masked]

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.boatbuilding will be open to
discussion of all aspects of boat building, design, boat restoration, and
repair including:

 - Topics directly or closely related to the building, design, restoration,
   and repair of boats:
   - Design (all aspects as it pertains to building)
   - Building, restoration, and repair in all materials:
     - wood,
     - metal,
     - composite,
     - fiberglass,
     - glues, epoxies and resins
     - boat finishes and finishing (including brightwork)
     - general materials issues (choices, problems, etc)
     - techniques (woodworking, cold molding, steaming, rotational molding,
       welding etc)
     - alternative building techniques (stitch & glue, glue & screw, canvas &
       frame, etc)
     - sources of materials and supplies and the associated feedback of using
       them
   - All varieties of boats being built, restored, or repaired:
     - human powered (rowing, sculling, paddling etc)
     - powered
     - sailed
   - Engine selection
   - Sail construction and repair
   - Sail rig selection
   - Information about boat designers (sources of custom work, designs and
     plans, experiences, contact information etc)
   - Information about boat builders, restorers, and repairers (sources,
     experiences, contact information etc)
   - Announcements of launchings and get togethers etc.

RATIONALE & BACKGROUND

rec.boats.building Final Vote Ack

Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.usa.com@.usa.com                                                     Jim Cook
[email-masked]                                          Mickey Sampson
[email-masked]                                       Richard Branch
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                               Hans Valk
[email-masked]                              Brendan Dhein
[email-masked]                                            Bob Tortolano
[email-masked]                          Harald Mittermann
[email-masked]                                        Anthony DeBoer
[email-masked]                                Andrew George Morrison
[email-masked]    Arther [email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                        Seth Alberts
[email-masked]                                                 Alex Hirsekorn
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                              Perry Michael MacDonald
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                            andrew (a.d.) moizer
[email-masked]                                            Ken Toews
[email-masked]                                      Ashraf Youssef
[email-masked]                                      Don Atkinson
[email-masked]                                                    Jim Ault
[email-masked]                                        Barbara Eichberger
[email-masked]                               Molly O'Neil Baringer
[email-masked]                                          Brian Austin
[email-masked]                                 Kay McCampbell
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                   Bill Fandrick
[email-masked]                                             Bruce Haugen
[email-masked]                                           Dan Birchall
[email-masked]                                         Bjorn-Kare Nilssen
[email-masked]                                          Bjorn Kastnes
[email-masked]                                             Blecha Andre
[email-masked]                                                  Bruce.Miller
[email-masked]                                              Brian Shewchuk
[email-masked]                                              Bob Myers
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                     Gerard Bohlander
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                  Bo Engstrom
[email-masked]                                             brad ipsan
[email-masked]                                                   John Broome
[email-masked]                                                    Bruce Given
[email-masked]                                        Bruce Johnson
[email-masked]                                       Bryan Sutton
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                   Doug Burdett
[email-masked]                                           William Ward
[email-masked]                                                BRENT W. BENSON
[email-masked]                                       Thomas Calvert
[email-masked]                                                    Chuck Rice
[email-masked]                                 bernard r. carman
[email-masked]                                   Dr. Tom Carr
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                      Mike Carter
[email-masked]                                          chris r bennett
[email-masked]                                Gordon Smith
[email-masked]                                    Celiza deCarvalho
[email-masked]                                       Charles Gross
[email-masked]                                                  Greg Young
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                       Chris Laughbon
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                          Clayton Gray
[email-masked]                         Charles Nichols
[email-masked]                                        Colin Constant
[email-masked]                                                conley
[email-masked]                                      Matt Conlon
[email-masked]                                Chisheng Huang
[email-masked]                        Chris Crandall
[email-masked]                                                    Clarke Reed
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                    Russell J Pagenkopf
[email-masked]                           CHRISTOPHER P. SCHULTZ
[email-masked]                                 Chuck Stringer
[email-masked]                                               John Cullen
[email-masked]                                  Craig Van de Water Lewis
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                   Cygnus Laser Corporation
[email-masked]                                                   Peter Campbell
[email-masked]                               Daniel F. Krawiec
[email-masked]                                                        Dan Wold
[email-masked]                                    Daryl Goodnight
[email-masked]                                 David Gene King
[email-masked]                                             Dave Mills
[email-masked]                                               MARTIN David
[email-masked]                                              Doug Brouwer
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                      Dick C. Masyga
[email-masked]                                      David B. Ebenstein
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                    Dave DeFily
[email-masked]                          David Dickinson
[email-masked]                                       Dirck Carvalho
[email-masked]                   Reply to: [email-masked]
[email-masked]                                            Brian Dixon
[email-masked]                                       David Mayer
[email-masked]                                              Dave Littlejohn
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                         Donald Haines
[email-masked]                                                      Donald Bowen
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                           Don Rodgers
[email-masked]                                                 DAVID PORTER
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                     Don Simmons
[email-masked]                                        Darren S. Bush
[email-masked]                                              Tom Dugan
[email-masked]                                             David W. Levine
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                 Jonas Carlson
[email-masked]                                           Sean Eamon Kennedy
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                              KD Ellis
[email-masked]                               Eric Scott Schreiber
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                           Virgilio M Esquillo
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                   Emery Lapinski
[email-masked]                                     Mark De Araujo
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                          Johan Ekstrom
[email-masked]                                       Larry Fahnoe
[email-masked]                                                       Jon Finke
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                         Charlie Fly
[email-masked]                                             Scott Fohrman
[email-masked]                                    Steve Frampton
[email-masked]                                          Bo Garrison
[email-masked]                                          Stephane Gauvin
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                   George Dinwiddie
[email-masked]                                                 Gavin D. Watt
[email-masked]                                          George Dyson
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                       George Heretz
[email-masked]                                    Glenn D. Aguilar
[email-masked]                                   Dan Goodwin KA1JML
[email-masked]                                                 Grant Erwin
[email-masked]                                 Timothy T. Greene
[email-masked]                                         Greg Woodward
[email-masked]                                           Gregg Germain
[email-masked]                           Gregoire Jean Francois
[email-masked]                                                 Paul Grun
[email-masked]                                                Gary Boccoleri
[email-masked]                                               Gustav Melin
[email-masked]                            Charles Jonathan Huthmaker
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                     Darwin Hall
[email-masked]                                       Robert Hanners
[email-masked]                                      Tapani Mikael Heimo
[email-masked]                                          David Holmes
[email-masked]                                          Henning Holtschneider
[email-masked]                       ZEUS::HOECKLEY
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                            Harmon Seaver
[email-masked]                            H Ainsley, c/o Wizards Ltd
[email-masked]                                            martin coghlan
[email-masked]                                           Galletta Leo W
[email-masked]                                             Daniel Dane T
[email-masked]                                           Toby Roberts
[email-masked]                                             Marco A. Garcia
[email-masked]                              James Wilson
[email-masked]                                                 Jan Isley
[email-masked]                                                    John Anest
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                         Jay Sutherland
[email-masked]                                          Joseph M. Ballay
[email-masked]                                                  John Chapin
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                               John Dion
[email-masked]                                         Jeff C. Glover
[email-masked]                                                John F. Hughes
[email-masked]                          James Andrew Goldstein
[email-masked]                                             Jeff Graves
[email-masked]                                            Jim Kreuziger
[email-masked]                                              Jimbo S. Harris
[email-masked]                                                 Jim Jewett
[email-masked]                                               Jim McCorison
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                 Joe Kress
[email-masked]                                       James L. Williamson
[email-masked]                                     Judith Mary Burns
[email-masked]                                             Julian Bewick
[email-masked]                                        Helen McGough
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                    Johannes Stille
john@kiawah                                                       John Matzner
[email-masked]                                               John Gratton
[email-masked]                                                 John Simpson
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                              John Phelps
[email-masked]                                         John Trinterud
[email-masked]                                          Joy Schwarz
[email-masked]                                          John Neff
[email-masked]                                                   John Teloh
[email-masked]                                         John T. Stonick
[email-masked]                                          Judianne Ganschow
[email-masked]                                   Javier Ruiz
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                     Ken Olum
[email-masked]                                                Keith Woodworth
[email-masked]                                                 Ken Harvey
[email-masked]                                        Kent Myers
[email-masked]                                        Kenneth J Neufeld
[email-masked]                                                  Kullervo Marja-aho
[email-masked]                                         Knut Pedersen
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                             Richard M. Koolish
[email-masked]                                                   Kirk Olsen
[email-masked]                                            Bob Krezel
[email-masked]                                          Schmolesky
[email-masked]                                        Martin Schroeder
[email-masked]                                                      Larry Smith
[email-masked]                                         Bob Larson
[email-masked]                                               Anselmo Lastra
[email-masked]                                                   Larry Norman
[email-masked]                                        Lawrence W. Ellerbruch
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                   Lindsay Hughes
[email-masked]                                                 Michael Liptack
[email-masked]                                                      Larry Leone
[email-masked]                                Lyonette Louis-Jacques
[email-masked]                                               philip (p.) locker
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                      Jeffrey D. Morris
[email-masked]                                   Lungstrum Richard
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                          Ralph Mader
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                               Martin ALLE
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                               Marc Greisen
[email-masked]                                           Mark Shasby
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                Matthew McGranaghan
[email-masked]                                              Matt Pedersen
[email-masked]                                             Robert Mayer
[email-masked]                                               Gene Bagwell
[email-masked]                              Barney McCartney
[email-masked]                                          Donna McMaster
[email-masked]                                              Keith G. McRae
[email-masked]                                                  Mark Culotta
[email-masked]                                               Malcolm Binns
[email-masked]                                  Michael T. Eyre
[email-masked]                                         Marrin Fleet
[email-masked]                                   Miles Abernathy
[email-masked]                                          Paradise Cowgirl
[email-masked]                                                  Mike Godfrey
[email-masked]                                           Mark Johnson
[email-masked]                                            Michael Lester
[email-masked]                                   Mickey Sadler
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                 Mike King
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                     Nigel Allen
[email-masked]                                                   Nelson Carter
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                           Neil Smith
[email-masked]                                                   Niall Sweeny
[email-masked]                                            Nick Tonkin
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                  Norm Slothouber
[email-masked]                                           David Norton
[email-masked]                                          Neill Symons
[email-masked]        Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen TF.DT/DELAB
[email-masked]                                             Bill Owens
[email-masked]                                                   John Berg
[email-masked]                                                   phil reed
[email-masked]                                             Sue Page
[email-masked]                                             Paul Delys
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                     pbirvine
[email-masked]                                      Paul C. Dickie
[email-masked]                                 Peter Kimball
[email-masked]                                            Bob Pfeifer
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                     piranha
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                              Patrick Magee
[email-masked]                                               PATRICK M MURPHY
[email-masked]                                                     Ted Poe
[email-masked]                                        Thomas P. Dolan
[email-masked]                                     Henry Prange
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                    peter tans
[email-masked]                                             Peter W. Meek
[email-masked]                                             Robert Hettinga
[email-masked]                                                 Ralph Hedinger
[email-masked]                                            Mr. Nice Guy
[email-masked]                                           Richard Brosseau
[email-masked]                                                Richard Austin
[email-masked]                                           Richard J. Anema
[email-masked]                                            Bob Lundy
[email-masked]                                                      Jeff Phillips
[email-masked]                              Rebecca McClain Marx
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                      Robert Taylor
[email-masked]                                           Jonathan Roberts
[email-masked]                                                 Ignatowski
[email-masked]                                       Gerry Rohling
[email-masked]                                        Tim Romlein
[email-masked]                                                Eikamp, Ron
[email-masked]                                                     Roy deCarvalho
[email-masked]                                              Roger Ronald
[email-masked]                                             Bob Rusk
[email-masked]                                       Richard H. Speicher
[email-masked]                                   John Rudoff,PC-D,Cardiology
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                            Samuel Murphy
[email-masked]                                       Samuel J Mitchell
[email-masked]                                         Sandy Pittendrigh
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                              Stephen Eliason
[email-masked]                                                 Seth Boor
[email-masked]                                              Dick
[email-masked]                                                  Chris Shaker
[email-masked]                                                   Tom Shea
[email-masked]              Bob Shepherd @ Unisys Govt Systems
[email-masked]                                  Scott Hovland M
[email-masked]                                                Steve Weingart
[email-masked]                                                 Joshua Simons
[email-masked]                                               Norman Sims
[email-masked]                                                   dave sims
[email-masked]                                                 eric slosser
SN=X+p400_Originator%DDA=ID=[email-masked]    X.400 Originat
[email-masked]                                    David Sparks
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                ESSAR
[email-masked]                                  James T McGowan
[email-masked]                                          Hugo Steemers
[email-masked]                                       Stefan Lipinski
[email-masked]                                           Steve Miller
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                           Stuart F Daniels
[email-masked]                                     Susan Scott
[email-masked]                                              Susie Barber
[email-masked]                                           Steven W. Hansen
[email-masked]                                                  Thomas D. Reed
[email-masked]                                               Ted Packard
[email-masked]                                            Thomas G. McWilliams
[email-masked]                                              Ron Thompson
[email-masked]                       Peter Thompson - Thompson Designs
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                         Todd Crane
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                Tom Elrod
[email-masked]                                        Antoni Broquetas Ibars
[email-masked]                        Edi Toolbox Library Account
[email-masked]                                                    Tim Kirby
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                  Michael Turski
[email-masked]                                       Martin M|ller Pedersen
[email-masked]                                          Dave Smucker
[email-masked]                                                    Al Amet
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                         Bob Willcox
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                                  Colin Valentine
[email-masked]                                                John Carson
[email-masked]                                    Wallace Venable
[email-masked]                                               Donald Voigt
[email-masked]                                      Vince Saporito
[email-masked]                                                     Wayne Kelly
[email-masked]                                               Wayne Angevine
[email-masked]                                                  Bill Brown
[email-masked]                                          Wendell L. Craig
[email-masked]                                               Stuart Wier
[email-masked]                                           Bill Brachold
[email-masked]                                              Clayton E. Wilson
[email-masked]                                                        Windsor
[email-masked]                                        WILLIAM MORRISON
[email-masked]                                             Kate Gregory
[email-masked]                     Dave Shariff Yadallee
[email-masked]                                                      Jim Yeats
[email-masked]                                                  David Suminsby

Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email-masked]                                           Marcus Bell
[email-masked]                                         Charles_Spitzer
[email-masked]                              Kenneth P Crouch
[email-masked]                                               Christopher Ward
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                        David Robinson
[email-masked]                                               Larry DeMers
[email-masked]                    Donna L. Rader,  WCK-1335,  Phone: 544-3263
[email-masked]                                                       Ed McCrudden
[email-masked]                            Fabbian G. Dufoe, III
[email-masked]                           Marc Durnin G596642
[email-masked]                             Jerry Vaughn . . Ext. 4538
[email-masked]                                   Pete 'Happy' Thomas
[email-masked]                                          Joseph_Fortt
[email-masked]                                                John Lacey
[email-masked]                                     John R. MacWilliamson
[email-masked]                                               Hasnain Khan
[email-masked]                                         Dave Kinzer
[email-masked]                                                 Linda Hill
[email-masked]                                        Marc Andre Kura
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                             Richard H. Miller
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                  Peter Edward Sholander
[email-masked]                                         Smarasderagd
[email-masked]                                                  Dwight Brown
[email-masked]                                     Susan Welsh
[email-masked]
[email-masked]                                         John Wexler
[email-masked]                                               Bill Walker
[email-masked]                                                      zcakkp6

Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email-masked]                                         M. Mike Taksar KC6ZPS

Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email-masked]                                     John Anderson
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                          SEAN McGINN
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                                   Colin Mick
   ! Conflicting votes
[email-masked]                                            Craig Harlamoff
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                             Gerald Shultz
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                               WE DON'T NEED NO EDUCATION
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                            Jim Colten
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]
   ! Conflicting votes
[email-masked]                                              Michael Bush
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                                Michael Landeros
   ! Conflicting votes
[email-masked]
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]
   ! No vote statement in message
[email-masked]                                           David Opincarne
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[email-masked]                                         Roland Serrat
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[email-masked]                                                    Al Reuter
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[email-masked]                                 Stephen Saint-Vincent
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[email-masked]                                     Steven C. Blair
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[email-masked]
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[email-masked]                            Breckenridge Group guys
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--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
[email-masked]   | adequately be explained by stupidity.
              The US Constitution: 1789-1994. RIP.