Subject: Re: Entry level welding rig

From: [email-masked] (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 09:28:53 CST

In article <[email-masked]>
[email-masked] (ErnieLeim) writes:
 
<lots of good stuff deleted>
 
>Buy your tanks if possible , if you rent them you will pay for them many
>times over . Also gas tanks don't realy lose value over time.
 
Around here, its difficult to get a tank filled by a supplier unless
its one of the supplier's tanks.  So, they offer a middle ground
betweem renting and buying; they call it "leasing."  For $160 plus
$18 for the argon, I got a 20 cu ft tank.  When the tank is empty, I
return the tank, get my $160 back...and start all over.  Financially,
it looks like I have bought a tank for $160, with refills at $18...
AND a guarentee that I can sell the tank back to them at anytime for
$160; I figure that the cost of having $160 tied up in a tank is
something like $8 per year in lost (after tax) investment income,
and, I agree, this is MUCH less than renting the tank.  Technically
though, the supplier owns the tank, and this is important to them.
 
Richard

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From: [email-masked] (ErnieLeim)
Date: 24 Mar 1995 23:23:40 -0500

I'm curious as to how the gas supplier you refer to justifies that system.
According to DOT regulations , rental tanks and ownership cylinders are
required to be handled completely seperatly. A new 20 cu ft tank should
cost  about 50 bucks.
I have bought tanks in Indiana traded them in to a supplier in California
and taken the california tanks and traded them in in Seattle without any
problem. An ownership cylinder is a universal commodity. I've never heard
of any gas company refusing an ownership cylinder from some other
supplier. Rental tanks are a completly different deal and I know that 
suppliers won't touch anyone else's rental tanks with a ten foot pole.
However if you can find military tanks they might take them.
In other words I don't understand the deal you have and why you pay so
much for such a small tank.
***********************************************************
*                    Ernie Leimkuhler                     *
*                 Stagesmith Productions                  *              *
               Custom Metal Fabrication                 *                 
   
*    ABANA   SCA     AWS    USITT   IATSE local 15, 488   *
*                      Renton, WA                         *
*"Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind" the bard  *
***********************************************************

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:06:22 GMT

I'm thinking of getting into metal working as a sidelight to woodworking, but
one of several questions that I have is about welding.  The last time I tried 
to weld anyghing, LBJ was president, and TIG wasn't available at my
highschool.  I've *seen* TIG welding, but we didn't have a rig in my basic
shop class.  I did a bit of gas welding, brazing, and made a botch at
arc welding.  However, I think I could do the latter, now...

The rig it's be looking for would be an entry level/general purpose welder.
I'd like it to be able to handle 1/4" steel at a minimum, though thicker
might be OK.  The ability to weld aluminum would be nice, though it's not
critical.  I haven't (yet) had the urge to build a bicycle, so I don't
need brazing ability, though I couldn't count that out.

So, a few questions:

1)  Is gas welding kind of obsolete for general purposes?
2)  If I go with MIG, I'd probably want to go with a gas shield, rather than
    flux core wire.  What's a practical amount of power to have for the
    1/4" stock?
3)  If I do want to braze, is gas still the only way to go?
4)  I get the idea that RF is necessary for aluminum welding.  Is this correct?

Thanks in advance for the answers.  

Pete Brooks

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From: [email-masked] (ErnieLeim)
Date: 24 Mar 1995 01:48:24 -0500

Entry level welding rig

Okay first , Gas( Oxy- Fuel) welding is dead as the dodo as far as
industrial use goes . It is still very useful for custom fabrication in
small shops because it does so many things in a fairly elegant manner . It
just isn't fast enough for industrial purposes. However this can work to
your advantage since used rigs are readily available and gas is still the
cheapest . It is still the best way to braze or solder. They still use gas
to sweat bike frames together. Also only consider flux core wire for
occassional  use where a tank is just too hard to carry. 
 If you want to weld steel up to 1/4 inch but not a lot of 1/4 inch, go
for a small mig gun. A hobart handler 120 or miller 130 are both good
units for thin wall tube steel. I've had a handler for 2 years and love it
for small work and on site welding since it runs on 120 v house current.
You do need a clear 20 amp circuit or you'll pop a breaker.
They cost between $600 and $900 according to what package you get.
Don't bother with a cheap unit .They are nothing but agravation.
Theoretically you can weld thin alluminum with these but don't believe it.

For heavy steel and alluminum go for either a 170 amp or 250 amp mig .
With the 250 amp units you can weld unlimited thickness steel or aluminum
with multiple passes and you can buy wire in 45 lb. spools. Hobart ,
Miller and Lincoln all make good units The 170 amp units are nice for
intermediate stuff and I once rented a Hobart 170 to weld aluminum and was
very impressed. I lean towards Hobart or Miller. I own a Hobart Betamig
250. Great welder , but some people prefer the controls on the miller. You
can push alluminum wire through a regular mig but for extensive aluminum a
spoolergun is recommended since the wire is only pushed about 6 inches
instead of 12 feet. They can either be run off a mig power supply with an
additional panel or by a seperate power supply. 
170 amp units run about $1100 and 250 amp for  $1600.Spoolers run around
$800, and require small 1 lb. spools of alum. They run on 50 amp circuits
of 220volt single phase.

As for TIG , the only real contender in the entry level field is the
Miller Econ-tig. It is the first  Tig that is affordable for small shops .
It is a 150 amp tig and a 175 amp stick welder. Great machine . I've had
mine for about a year and couldn't live without it . It can weld anything
up to 1/4 inch steel or aluminum and occassional use on up to 3/8 inch.
I've welded steel , stainless steel, titanium, aluminum, copper and
inconel. 
A new unit with air cooled torch, one tank and foot control is about
$1600. It runs on a 50 amp circuit of 220 v single phase.

If you want to learn to weld , get real good with gas. I tell my students
to hold off on learning mig until they have gas under control , since it
gives you intense training in torch control and most important
...patience. And by the way skip stick welding unless you have to use it .
It just isn't worth it any more. 

As for gases; For steel 75% argon / 25% CO2 is the best general gas for
mig. For aluminum on mig; and steel and aluminum for tig run straight
Argon . For Stainless steel on tig run helium . 
If you own a few tanks , most gas suppliers will trade a bottle of one gas
for a bottle of another . Whenever I have had to Mig stainless I go and
swap one of my tanks for a tank of helium tri-mix. When I finish I swap it
back and only pay for the gas.
Buy your tanks if possible , if you rent them you will pay for them many
times over . Also gas tanks don't realy lose value over time.
I
Tank prices                  75/25               argon              
helium
30 cu.ft.      $50                $15                  $18                
  $20
64 cu.ft.      $80                  15                    18              
     20
120 cu.ft.    $110                20                    25                
   30
240 cu.ft.     $160               32                    45                
    55

Tanks under 120 cu.ft are usually chared a flat rate while those bigger
are charged by the cubic foot.
Hope this helps and isn't too much info. If you can find used equip  at
good prices stick with big names (miller, hobart, lincoln, airco, powcon)
or you will have a hard time finding parts.
 If you want to learn to weld I would suggest an evening course at your
local Junior Tech. college. It would give you a chance to try out the
machines without buying one and most instructors are really nice guys.