Subject: Woodworkerr Supply vs. Home Depot

From: [email-masked] (Tom Gauldin)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:14:40 GMT

The above subject line may be a bit misleading, but I didn't know exactly how
else to phrase it.  What I'd like to do is to explore a subject with the group
about where we buy our more ordinary tools.  I'm just using these two fine
stores as examples.

Woodworker's Supply is being used to categorize a catalog/store that
specializes in selling a wide range of tools, supplies and materials for the
woodworking hobbyist and probably also some professional woodworkers.  

Home Depot is being used to categorize all general purpose hardware stores,
lumber yards and home improvement stores.

I don't think that anybody would argue that Woodworker's Supply has a much
wider range of tools and other inventory specifically inclined to us
woodworkers, while Home Depot sells a much wider range of materials and
supplies for the building trades and general homeowners.  However, the two
retailers "OVERLAP" in some areas- particularly in their line of general
purpose handtools and power tools.  Home Depot also sells some floor tools,
but not nearly the selection that is found at Woodworker's Supply.

Now here is where I want to introduce something that may be a tad
controversial.  Simply stated,  WHENEVER POSSIBLE, I PREFER TO BUY FROM
WOODWORKER'S SUPPLY, if the price of the tool in question is even roughly
comparable to that found at Home Depot.  I've even found that they'll match
the price of Home Depot when the tools are identical.

My reason for doing this isn't because I'm mad at Home Depot.  In fact, I
really like the place and shop there a lot for building materials, electrical
supplies, plumbing supplies and all other sorts of things, including flowers
and trees.  However, the reason I favor a place like Woodworker's Supply, when
the product is available at BOTH stores, is that by buying even the most
mundane tools from Woodworker's Supply, I help keep the store in business. . .
and therefore I am assured that there will be a source in the future for the
unusual tools, supplies and materials that appeal uniquely to me as a
woodworking hobbyist. 

Its a bit selfish, but I just love the idea of having a catalog or store that
sells a wide and varied range of the tools, materails, supplies and "advice"
that fit into the buying needs of my own workshop.  By supporting this type of
enterprise, I feel that I'm helping myself in the long run.  

Another example of this is a wholesale club, such as Sam's.  There, the club
buys items from manufacturers that are the more popular items and that might
normally carry the highest profit margins for specialty retailers.  For
instance, an appliance store selling a refrigerator may rely heavily on the
profit margins from the sale to stay in business---- and thus also offer
repair parts, for not only the refrigerator, but also the stoves, ovens and
dishwashers that it sells and services.  Sam's Club then comes in and sells
just the main product line that the competing appliance store offers, while
not carrying the miscellaneous other appliances and inventory.  

In the short run, I can theoretically save a few bucks and some hassle by
buying from Sam's Club limited selection of refrigerators.  The tradeoff is
that the appliance store that I rely on for service and parts might fail
eventually.  What I do is to first obtain the Sam's Club price and then give
the appliance store the right to match that price, if I'm willing to buy the
Sam's Club item.  This at least gives the smaller profit to the appliance
store and helps to keep it in business. 

Do others of you feel this way?

Tom

Tom Gauldin           Here's to the land of the longleaf pine,
Raleigh NC             The Summerland,where the sun doth shine.
fax 919-676-1404   Where the weak grow strong,and the strong grow great,
                               Here's to Downhome,the Old North State.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:18:34 GMT

I'm just the opposite.  I will give my business to the warehouse club
(usually PriceCostco)  first as long as it is the best price for what
I'm buying.

Reasons:
1. It is the warehouse club that has proactively priced the product at
the lowest cost by following a low overhead business model.
(I generally don't like to give business to someone that matches
price.  Anyone can match price, I want the best price at the outset.)

2. I want the warehouse clubs to thrive.  I like the model of low
margins, low overhead, no advertsing, and quality name brands.

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From: [email-masked] (Tom Gauldin)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:39:40 GMT

You point is obviously well taken.  However, warehouse clubs offer a very
limited selection in things such as appliances and tools.  Our local Sam's,
for instance, sells a few Makita products and some DeWalt.  While I could walk
into Sam's and pick up a Makita drill, for instance, I can price-match at a
Woodworker's Supply and have the same product.  The difference is that the
profit goes to a store that caters to my OTHER needs- hence helping to insure
that they'll be there when I want to buy something more difficult to locate,
such as a miter gauge for a tablesaw.

Tom

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From: "Woody" <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Mar 1997 03:47:06 GMT

I've come to the conclusion that Home Depot "really" is marketed toward
the homeowner, not the professional craftsman, which is perfectly fine. 
For instance they'll sell some small planes up to a 14" Buck Brothers
plane, but you'd never find a jointer's plane there, it's too specialized. 
Another example is that they sell Bull's Eye ready make shellac, but not
shellac flakes, again too specialized.  The examples go on and on.  What I
do is when I need a specialized tool I'd order it from Woodworker's supply,
or Lee Valley tools, but anything that I need that Home Depot carries, I'll
buy it there.  It's cheaper, faster, and easier to return if it doesn't
suit my needs when I get it home.
	I wish Home Depot carried more lumber than just pine, maple, poplar and
oak, too. 
[email-masked]

..  What I'd like to do is to explore a subject with the group

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From: "Casey " <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Mar 1997 03:42:07 GMT

Tom,
I have been so utterly frustrated in mail order companies, that I'd would
never buy a tool that way again. The problem is backorders and damage in
transit. I want to see and touch what I'm buying, beforehand. Not just a
representative model, I mean the VERY thing. I can't do this by mail order.
I'd rather pay 25% more (or $100, whichever is less) for this privilege.
And it seems as if the retailers are happy to oblige, too. ;-) And I wish
there was a tool Mecca within striking distance, but I have to make do with
Home Depot, Hechingers and Lowes, and the local industrial tool seller
($$$).
Casey

Tom Gauldin <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

What I'd like to do is to explore a subject with the group
> about where we buy our more ordinary tools.  

> lumber yards and home improvement stores.

WHENEVER POSSIBLE, I PREFER TO BUY FROM
> the price of Home Depot when the tools are identical.

 the reason I favor a place like Woodworker's Supply, when

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:07:08 -0500

I think for me it depends on the tool.  If I was buying Dremel parts, 
I wouldn't care where I bought them; lots of places know to carry bits 
and whatnot for those machines. But for other items, I might try to 
buy from the specialty store.  I _do_ want those places to be around 
when I need them!

SciRhet
able to leap disciplines in a single bound

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From: DAVID MEIER <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:14:35 -0500

As a retail salesman for an electronics store who is also a
customer of both warehouse clubs and specialty stores, let me draw some
analogies and then suggest a shopping strategy.
     As  a specialty retailer in electronics we carry both common and
esoteric brands/items. We have educated and trained sales personel to
evaluate your needs and recommend appropriate products. We have a price
guarentee for the customer's protection from local marketing strategies.
Warehouse clubs only have low prices on common and many times
discontinued items and offer no trained personel.
      As a specialty retailer and commissioned salesmen I gladly match
any valid price. I make my living and stay in business  because of loyal
repeat customers.  However, my knowledge and availability to answer
questions and solve problems after the sale do not come free.
Everyday customers want the advantage of my skills, knowledge, and
customer service at the same price as a no service retailer. When you
buy that saw at a warehouse club and have a question about it who are
you going to call? The manufacturer? Maybe, but it's after 5:00 p.m. and
you have been on hold for 10 minutes. Now  you end up calling the local
retailer with the trained people and asking them the questions expecting
them to help you for free.  
     Therefore I suggest you support your specialty store with all of
your purchases in that field of interest. Find a good retailer with a
price match policy and develop a relationship with the salesman.  A
"good salesman" will notify you about sales, steer you towards better
products, and take care of you after the sale.  Then go buy your
groceries and household items at the warehouse club.
     As a consumer I find it frustrating to have a question about a
product and after consulting the salesperson realize that I know more
about the product than they do. We need to identify the quality
retailers and support them with all of our related business.
       Almost forgot, how do you find this "Good Salesman"?  That's
easy. Simply introduce yourself and explain that you are looking for a
local retailer to buy all of this type of merchandise from. Tell him the
products your interested in and ask to him to notify  you of
opportunities and sales.  If he is not already taking notes in his
personal notebook of regular customers then he's not your man. Move on.

David

The odds of a piece of bread falling to the floor butter side down are directly proportionate to the cost of the carpet.
                          Murphy's Law

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From: [email-masked] (David Anderson)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:51:27 GMT

>Do others of you feel this way?

I think that you will find the smaller specialty retail store will
thrive by meeting the competition on price BEFORE you walk into the
store.  Retailers who mark the products way up and then give large
(and varying) discounts to those who ask remind me of late night TV
used car salesmen.  If it is cash and carry, I plan to carry it out of
the competitive store.  Yes, I factor after market service into the
price (just as the small shop charges for repairs and parts based on
the cost of service and parts).

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From: [email-masked] (Wddbl)
Date: 29 Mar 1997 16:45:18 GMT

All my mail order tool purchases have been ok.

I used Seven Corners Ace Hardware (AKA "Tools on Sale")  and

International Tools in Florida

Have had no problems but I have not ordered "Large Machines")

Regards

Doug

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 06:11:59 GMT

[email-masked] (Tom Gauldin) wrote:

>lumber yards and home improvement stores.

SNIP SNIP

Neither the Home Depot type store nor the specialty catalog store is
in business out of any sense of altruism or love for its customer.
Each is in busiiness to make money and each will attempt to wring the
maximum profit out of every customer who approaches.  Nothing wrong
with this.  As a matter of fact it works great.  That is why we have
such a choice in capitalist countries and so little choice in
socialist ones.

Here is something to think about, however.

1.  Some catalog stores make a lot of money on "shipping" charges.
Some will charge 5.95 shipping on a $10.00 item.  This amounts to 60%
markup in the form of a "hidden" charge.  What does the shipping
really cost them?  And keep in mind that the catalog store does not
need to staff counters with cashiers or display their wares for
shoplifters so don't reason that they have costs that the home-depot
type store does not have.

2.  Stores like Home Depot expect to make "x" dollars per square foot
of retail space .  Their computer data bases tell them which items
turn over fastest.  These items are the items that they are going to
stock.  They don't really give a damn about service to their customer
other than to not alienate him to the degree he will not return, so
don't ever expect to find anything there that is out of the ordinary
or highly specialized.

Each of these two retailers is out to extract as much as it can from
each customer and each is acting in its own self interest.  As a
consumer you should act in your self interest.

Personally, I have one decent hardware store in my area in addition to
a home depot.  I patronize the hardware store whenever I can because I
realize that if Home Depot forces this store out of business I will no
longer have a place to buy any type of specialty item.  I also realize
that if Home Depot succeeds in eliminating what little competition
they still have then not only will I not have a store to find more
specialized items but I can be certain that Home Depot prices will
start rising and rising FAST.

There's my 2 cents on this matter.  Just act in your own self interest
and the system will keep on working.  As a consumer you don't owe any
merchandiser any loyalty whatsoever.  You can be certain the
merchandisers have no loyalty to you.  If they are nice, or if they
have an excellent return policy or if they give superb follow-up
service it is because they want to keep you as a customer.  It's not
because they have any great affection for you.  You are foolish if
allow "feelings" to direct your buying decisions.  

Also note how some--though not all--of the catalog companies
misrepresent their products in their catalog spiels.  Also, remember
most of them are planning how they can profitably break into the
retail market by opening stores in locations where they sense a
profit.  Ain't it wonderful how this capitalist system works to our
advantage in the long run!

Bye

PS Dont try to E-mail me.  I can receive no E-mail.

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From: Jay Sultan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:39:37 -0500

>lumber yards and home improvement stores.

I have seen all the awful things said about Home Depot on these pages
and I think people are either over-generalizing or expecting too much.

Home Depot makes it possibile for DIYs to access products previously
available only to contractors.  They have convenient hours and locations
to many people.  

Their structual wood has some bad pieces, but so does wood from
anywhere, and at least you can pick through it at HD.  Their hardwood is
expensive, but what do you expect?

They sell Delta, PC, DeWalt and everything else.

If I have a tool question, I come here and DejaNews.  If I go to HD for
tool help, I know from experience which one employee has experience and
knowledge to help.  I don't ask the college student at the cash
register.  

The people in the wood section now know me on-sight.  They are always
helpful.  I cannot get 12" maple burl there.  What do you expect?

If it were not for HD, I would have to travel 2 hours to Highland
Hardware in Atlanta or 90 min to Georgia Hardwoods in Duluth.

Your original question was not specific to HD, but a general call for
opinions on home improvment stores vs mail order stores. 

Price simply varies.  I have bought major tools from HD, mail order, and
speciality woodworking stores.  I keep a list of the tools I want
(someday) and keep checking price.

For example, I got the DeWalt plate joiner recently.  The price in HD
was $10 less than the price in Highland Hardware.  But I saw an add from
a mail order place that was $30 less than HD.  I had to pay S&H, but
there was no sales tax and they included biscuits and glue.  I paid
$206, including shipping.

I also recently bought a table saw.  The HD price was $50 less than any
othet price I saw, after weeks of looking.  If you want the best price,
you must do some legwork.

Be sure to consider sales tax, shipping costs, delivery charges, etc. 
If you get a 300 lb tool from mail order, they will deliver it to your
house (probably).  From HD you pick it up or pay a charge for delivery.

I have not yet bought wood from a mail order location, because I buy
small amounts (the price difference is not important) and I like to see
the wood before I buy it.

I expect to do more projects, which will require trips to hardwood
specialty stores.  Perhaps one of these people selling 1000 bf at
$0.80/bf....

There is one other, important difference between the two.  If you are a
good enough customer to a HD (and they are a good store), after enough
trips and reasonable questions, they will get to know you.  I find that
very valuable and comforting.

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From: "Database Coder" <[email-masked]>
Date: 1 Apr 1997 20:30:34 GMT

I recently purchased a Delta Power Sliding Miter Saw from toolcrib. I was
cheaper than I could find in any store in my area (San Jose CA) and there
were no shipping charges! I placed my order on Monday and on Wednesday the
saw showed up in perfect condition. I save a large sum of money.. BTW Home
Depot didn't even carry this particular saw.

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From: "Database Coder" <[email-masked]>
Date: 1 Apr 1997 20:49:12 GMT

> and I think people are either over-generalizing or expecting too much.

Expecting too much like experienced helpful sales people, or maybe
expecting that they might actually order extra quantities of items that are
popular?

> available only to contractors.  They have convenient hours and locations

Name something that I cannot get from another source.

> expensive, but what do you expect?

some bad pieces? where do you live? I  recently needed 60 2x4's after going
to HD and spending 30 minutes digging and finding only 10 that were barely
acceptable, I went to Sunnyvale Lumber where I paid only 20 cents more per
2x4 and they loaded it directly into my truck. They let me inspect the wood
as it was loaded, and I was able to reject bad pieces. I was at the Lumber
yard much less than 30 minutes. BTW this was on a Saturday.

> They sell Delta, PC, DeWalt and everything else.
they do not carry a full line of any tools. Tool Crib mail order is a much
better way to go for power tools.

> knowledge to help.  I don't ask the college student at the cash
Wow they hire college students at your HD? You have a better level of sales
person at your HD than any of the HD's in my area.

> helpful.  I cannot get 12" maple burl there.  What do you expect?
sounds like you are from a small town. Go to a major city and visit the
Home Depot there, I am sure you will have a much different experience. I
have three Home Depots' within 15 minutes of my house, they are all the
same. Bad wood, Bad service, crowded, Ignorant sales staff, lousy dying
plants, over priced garden supplies such as compost, manure, bricks etc..

> Hardware in Atlanta or 90 min to Georgia Hardwoods in Duluth.

Tuff luck! Move to a better area if it is a problem!
 
> house (probably).  From HD you pick it up or pay a charge for delivery.
Tool Crib charges no shipping for orders over $75 and if they don't have a
retail outlet in your state there is no sales tax!

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From: "Kurt Blank" <[email-masked]>
Date: 2 Apr 1997 14:46:55 GMT

snip

Comparing HD to any specialty store is futile.  It's like comparing K-mart
to Schwin to buy a hybrid bike or to The Grill Doctor for grills.  I have a
Ace hardware and a True Value hardware store in the area where I go and get
information from trained staff.  And if I can buy something at HD for
cheaper and I know what I want I go there.
Regards,
Kurt

Database Coder <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...