Subject: Re: Routers: Freud 2000E vs. the others?

From: "Phil Bonner" <[email-masked]>
Date: 8 Feb 1997 20:10:23 GMT

Dejanews research is one of the most useful means of tool evaluation that I
know. I just purchased an Elu 3339 (from which Dewalt 625 was cloned), 
based on Deja news research and after screening hundreds of archived
rec.woodworking postings from router users about their experiences with
their routers.  

Generally, the Freud 2000E was well-liked in these postings but too many
stories of motor winding problems scared me off the Freud and caused me to
lean towards the Elu 3339 for use in router table.  I got the PC 630 for
hand held work.  I like both routers very much. The Elu 3339 is very smooth
- but - costs a lot more than the Freud.

However the best advice I can giver you is,  by all means,  check out
Dejanews.com for all rec.woodworking postings about routers and then you
can make a very informed decision.

I see that Steve, below,  offered some great router purchase advice.

Phil

Peterson <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
: Mark Kepke wrote:
: > 
: > In article <[email-masked]>,
: > [email-masked] (Randy Jones) wrote:
: > 
: > >Hi there,
: > >   I am about to buy my first router.  I'll be using it for relatively
: > >small projects around the house, but I have the dream of someday
: > >trying my hand at some raised panel cabinets, too.
: > 
: > Use the DejaNews service (www.dejanews.com).  About a billion+6 "What
: > brand of router is best ?" postings there.
: > 
: > -Mark
: > 
: > --
: > My opinions, etc.
: OK - that is far too many posts to sort through.  He wants an informed
: opinion.  If you have one, give it.  If not, shut up.
: 
: There are too many posts on this group for the totally trivial ones. 
: Say something useful, or say nothing.
: 
: Steve
:

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 14:41:17 -0600

In article <[email-masked]>,
  [email-masked] wrote:
>
> Mark Kepke wrote:
> >
> > In article <[email-masked]>,
> > [email-masked] (Randy Jones) wrote:
> >
> > >Hi there,
> > >   I am about to buy my first router.  I'll be using it for relatively
> > >small projects around the house, but I have the dream of someday
> > >trying my hand at some raised panel cabinets, too.
> >
> > Use the DejaNews service (www.dejanews.com).  About a billion+6 "What
> > brand of router is best ?" postings there.

> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > --
> > My opinions, etc.
> OK - that is far too many posts to sort through.  He wants an informed
> opinion.  If you have one, give it.  If not, shut up.
>
> There are too many posts on this group for the totally trivial ones.
> Say something useful, or say nothing.
>
> Steve

I think he made an excellent reply Steve.  If users would go
to dejanews first, they would find thousands of previous posts
covering the "What's the Best Router ?" area.  That would
eliminate the repetitive posts in this group.

Pat McInerney

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

---

From: [email-masked] (Dan Scott)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 21:34:57 -0500

> eliminate the repetitive posts in this group.

I've been reading this newsgroup off and on with various degrees of
devotion for the last 5-6 years. If you killed all the "repetitive posts"
this newsgroup would be a mighty slim read and a lot less interesting. 

FWIW, posts about other people's repetitive posts are themselves quite
repetitive and have a lot less to do with the object of "rec.woodworking"
than does any of the oft asked questions about tools, techniques,
experiences, etc.. 

Dan Scott

---

From: "Randolph M. Jones" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:37:25 -0500

> brand of router is best ?" postings there.

Did you read my post, or just the subject?

Well, I've actually been through those, and they were very informative.
They are what helped me narrow down my choices.  I never saw (or
at least didn't notice) in those posts that the Freud 2000E was actually
more HorsePower than the DeWalt 621 or the Bosch 1623EVS...I assumed
they were all the same power, since they were all about the same
price.  I was surprised to find out differently

So I didn't exactly ask "What brand of router is best?".
Let me rephrase the question I *did* ask.  Why are all the "good"
3HP routers around $280-$300 but the Freud only around $200?  If I'm
going to want 3HP someday, is there some reason I shouldn't buy the
Freud instead of paying more for the higher horsepower DeWalt and Bosch
routers?

If you know that the answer to this particular question is in DejaNews,
by all means please tell me where.

Thanks,
   Randy Jones

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Morgan)
Date: 8 Feb 1997 18:47:25 GMT

In article <01bc14b0.e3a25ec0$ca9e09ce@horizons>, [email-masked] says...
>
>Randy:
>
>Just the guy you're looking for, in my inventory I have the Bosch 1613EVS,
>the DeWalt 621 and the Freud FT2000E.
>
>Unfortunately I cannot speak to the Freud as to it's hand-held prowess as
>It was immediately mounted under the router table, and will live there
>happily forever.
>
>The only gripe I have with the FT2000E is there isn't a separate 1/4"
>collet, but instead an insert for 1/4" bits. I don't like them. 
[snip]

I agree - the 1/4" insert that comes with the Freud is a poor quality solution 
for the problem of using different bit sizes.  However, there is a 1/4" collet 
sold by B&D/DeWalt/Elu that fits the Freud router as well.  I don't whether 
this is the same as the collet that comes with the DeWalt 621, but I did buy 
mine at a B&D/DeWalt service shop for around $30.  I've also seen them in the 
Woodworker's Supply catalog.

To use: unscrew the black collet retaining nut completely and pull the silver 
collet out.  Be sure to snap the new collet completely into the nut - otherwise 
the collet will neither tighten sufficiently nor self-extract.

Jim Morgan

---

From: [email-masked] (Ron Henderson)
Date: 10 Feb 1997 20:12:54 GMT

John Hofstad-Parkhill ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Also, in spite of what Tool Crib and my local B&D service center says,
: there's no edge guide available from DeWalt that will work on the 621.
: Looking at Feb/Mar for shipment.

I just purchased a DeWalt microadjust guide for my 621 from Jerry's in
Eugene, OR.  The one I purchased was labeled for use with the 614 or
615.  I had first talked to DeWalt customer support and they said a
guide for the 615 would work with the 621, and they quoted a Mar/Apr
delivery for 621 specific accessories.  Not wanting to wait, I talked to
the people at Jerry's and they offered to take it back if it didn't work
with my 621.  It works fine with the 621.

--
Ron
remove the 'aaz' and
the '.delete' to email me

---

From: Termite <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:07:08 -0500

Ron - Cool. Tell us, does the fence have a micro adjustment on it? How
long is the fence? Are the leading edges rounded off? Is it pre-drilled
for attachment of a longer add-on fence if you would want to do this?
How long is this fence?

---

From: Termite <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:54:57 -0500

OK I saw the flames - wild stuff. I went to DejaNews this weekend and
read my brains out about routers - in particular I was interested in the
DeWalt 621 as I already had one on order. It came today !!!!!
I too love this little beast! It's a sweet thing !! Smooth and plunges
so cool, way less effort required than the big boys (Freud 2000e).
I was very disapointed finding out about the two very large short
commings of the 621. 1) no fence 2) no height adj. for use in a router
tabe - that's a BIG item.
 
So I called Tool Crib of the North. You can return anything you buy from
them any time you want - AS ONG AS IT's still NEW. (Don't flame me -
that's what the guy told me). 
 
Everything that's posted here is gloom-n-doom for availability for these
two items. And, there remains some discussion about how height
adjustment can be accomplished for this router. I spent about an hour or
so looking at it ( I really want to keep it but can't afford another
router at this time - and I want to do some table work, but mostly
mortise, rabbets, dados, etc) in an attempt to figure out how they could
or were going to make it work (height adj for table work).

So think about this. Suppose the fine adjustment bar (or a replacement)
were attached to the base or to the 3 pin stop. Say it was screwed into
one of the holes where one of the pins go. Then if you turned it the
motor would ride up/down the plunge rods. Try it - drop the fine height
adj. rod to the bottom, hold it with one hand and turn the adjustment
knob with the other - WOW, the motor moves up and down on the plungers
!!!!  
 
So, I went to the American Eagle catalog and looked at the picture of
their height knob. If you look at it you might see that it's not the
same as the router was shipped to you. I don't believe that there has to
be any type of rack and pinion (sic) (every where) type knob or drive
system built into the 621 elsewhere in order to make this thing work in
a table.
I am concerned that one might have to give up the great fine adjustment
when using the 621 out of the table - or change the height adjuster back
again. This is not real friendly. Those two adjustments are the slickist
I've seen on any router !!  Anyone seen better?

I'm still trying to decide what to do. I plan to call DeWalt in the AM
to discuss their (soon to be) height adjuster. Meaning that I would like
them to provide me with a description of how the thing will work.

Of course if anything of value comes from my discussion with them I'll
post you. I would expect that I'd get the same story that we've been
reading about here - in which case I won't post you.

---

From: [email-masked] (Ron Henderson)
Date: 11 Feb 1997 22:27:52 GMT

Termite ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Ron - Cool. Tell us, does the fence have a micro adjustment on it? How
: long is the fence? Are the leading edges rounded off? Is it pre-drilled
: for attachment of a longer add-on fence if you would want to do this?
: How long is this fence?

It's a standard DeWalt product, DW6901, a "Parallel Fence with Fine
Fence Adjuster".  The bars are 11-3/4 in.  long and 5/16 inches in
diameter.  The length of the fine adjust threaded rod is 3-1/8 inches.

The fence face is broken into two areas separated by about 1" of space
in the shape of a 'U'.  Each 'face' has black plastic held in place by
two screws.  Each plastic piece is slightly rounded.  The total fence
length is just under 8-3/4 inches.  You can remove the plastic and
attach a 'homemade' fence.

If one extends the rods to their maximum it appears as if the fence is
about 9 or 10 inches from the center of the bit (guess alert!).  The
cost was $29.95 at Jerry's in Eugene, OR.  I don't know if that is a
'good buy' or not, but it's the only place I've seen one locally since I
purchased the router last month, but I admit I haven't been looking for
one, I just happened to see it while looking for something else.

---

From: Termite <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:22:37 -0500

Ron,
Thanks for the information. I spoke with DeWalt this AM about these two
items (fence and height adj.) for the 621.
The guy told me that maybe in April they would ship!  I'm still trying
to decide if I want to wait that long - and still don't know how the
height adj. will work even then.
The guy told me that the way it'll work is that you plunge all the way
down and then lock the router down, place it in the table and then adj.
the height.  
HEY MAN - what's he been smoking??? Wonder who got the good stuff. Even
I know that once the router is locked (in any position) the adj. knob
can have no effect on the position of the motor. IF it does we're gonna
be in trouble.
Anyway, after I splained it 2 m, he said to me. It will work just like
the 625, they have sold thousands of them and everyone loves them and
they work great in tables.

I know nothing of the 625 other than what I've seen posted in the NG.
Anyone using this in a router table?
Does it in fact have a separate knob for adjusting the height when it's
in the table, as opposed to the fine adj. knob for setting the depth of
plunge?

The guy told me to take the 621 and put it in the table and try it
(????) and that I would then see how it worked. He said that when the
height adj. knob becomes available that it will attach directly onto the
existing knob on the router and that the only thing it does is make it
easier for you to reach the adjuster.

HELP !!!

---

From: Termite <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:36:14 -0500

Ron,
Please help me understand just what you got when you bought the 'DeWalt
microadjust guide for the 614/615' 
Does this item in fact allow you to adjust the height of the bit (motor
position on the plunge rods) when the router is installed in a table?
 
Did it attach directly to the adjuster knob already on the 621?
Are you now using the 621 in a table? If so what type (if any) of
success (or problems) are you having ?

---

From: [email-masked] (Ron Henderson)
Date: 12 Feb 1997 02:56:51 GMT

Termite ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Ron,
: Please help me understand just what you got when you bought the 'DeWalt
: microadjust guide for the 614/615' 
: Does this item in fact allow you to adjust the height of the bit (motor
: position on the plunge rods) when the router is installed in a table?
:  
: Did it attach directly to the adjuster knob already on the 621?
: Are you now using the 621 in a table? If so what type (if any) of
: success (or problems) are you having ?

It's an edge guide fence, i.e.  for routing a groove a set distance from
the edge of a board.  It doesn't involve the plunge height adjustment.
We'll have to wait for DeWalt to introduce that device.  Last I heard it
was Feb/Mar, then Mar/Apr and now I hear April.

---

From: StanR <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:45:09 -0800

> in the table, as opposed to the fine adj. knob for setting the depth of

I have the ELU equivalent of the 625 router. I mount it in a table on a
3/8 inch polycarbonate base. It is a quite good router, my only
complaint being the router should bottom a bit more, as the 3/8 inch
plate reduces this. The problem occurs when using the 1/4 inch collet,
many 1/4 inch bits have short shafts. Most of the larger plunge routers
seem to have this problem as I saw in a parellel thread.

I bought a long fine adjust knob and find it helps under the table, that
slipnut is hard to grab sometimes. The first, cheap knob I bought wasn't
very good, but the more expensive one from DeWalt turned more freely and
is the better knob.

The only thing I can think of that he was talking about is the fine
adjustment scale it has, in addition to the regular adjustment knob.
It's a good scale with a caliper fine adjustment. But you still adjust
the height with the knob. The scale provides a stop to calibrate
against. And to get it out of the way, you move it into the full up
position.

> easier for you to reach the adjuster.

Yes, this is true. The knob I have is about ten inches long and extends
over the head of the router. Much easier to use in the table. I could
probably remove the springs or replace them with softer springs in the
table, but havn't done this.

All-in-all, a good router. Good hand router also, but 3 HP is a big
router. I would have preferred a 2 HP version, but that was discontinued
a while ago when I bought the Elu.

Stan

---

From: [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds)
Date: 12 Feb 1997 20:48:07 GMT

"Randolph M. Jones" <[email-masked]> writes
> I assumed they were all the same power, since they were all about the same
> price.  I was surprised to find out differently.

Well, there's more to a router than brute HP. As for price, the Bosch
comes with two collets and a built-in microadjuster, and the DeWalt's got 
a nifty dust collection hook-up.

> Why are all the "good" 3HP routers around $280-$300 but the Freud only 
> around $200?

Freud's not alone: Ryobi's 3 HP plunger is in the $200 ballpark.

> If I'm going to want 3HP someday, is there some reason I shouldn't buy the

Until you need 3HP, you'll be lugging around extra weight. For handheld
use, it makes the router harder to move around. If you don't panel
raise, or don't even use the thing in a table, 3 HP is overkill.

- Bennett Leeds
[email-masked]

Opinions are mine alone.

---

From: Termite <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:50:57 -0500

> a while ago when I bought the Elu.

Stan,
Thanks for the insight.
I know some of you will be bored with this, and already know, but for
thos like me here it is.
There just is NO WAY the 621 works in a table like the ELU, F2000E,
DW625. All of these routers have a second threaded rod that is afixed to
the motor housing AND the top of the base plate. When you unlock the
pluger you are then able to adjust the motor position on the plunge rods
by turnning this threaded rod. THIS IS NOT the rod that is used to zero
out the router at the bottom of the plunge. That rod is only used to
control how far down the router will go when you plunge.
The DW621 DOES NOT have this other threaded rod that connects the motor
housing to the base plate. Without this there is no way (other than
plunge) to adjust the motor position on the plunge rods.
I called Eagle American today, they are offering a 'Height Adjuster
Knob' for the DW 621. I called their technical support line
(216-286-7429) to discuss the function of the knob. The technician told
me that it simply goes on top of the cailper adjust knob and that once
the router depth is set you keep it plunged down and put it in the
table.
So - I called Dewalt. They confirmed that the DW625 does in fact have an
adjuster for setting the router bit depth of cut when the router is in
the table (you leave the plunger unlocked, and the depth gauge moved up
all the way) and that the DW 621 does not have this feature. I suggested
that I'd head that DeWalt was comming out with a feature or after market
modification for the DW621 to provide that function. 'NEVER HEAD THAT'
was the technicians reply.

SAD TO SAY, I'll be putting my new DW621 back in the box and sending it
back to Tool Crib. Hate to be out shipping cost and no router - I guess
I'll wait 4 to 6 months and see who brings the goodies to market.

I need that DW621 (like a junkie, gotta have it !!) but it has to work
above and below the table. I just can't afford to spend the money that's
required to have a 2HP above and 3HP below. And I've used a friends
F2000E, it's heavy and requires a lot to plunge and much larger than
what I'd like to have for above the table work.

---

From: "Stephen G. Strickland" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:43:52 GMT

> Freud's not alone: Ryobi's 3 HP plunger is in the $200 ballpark.

I got my 3HP Ryobi about 7 years ago and have been very happy with it.
It has a large adjustment knob which makes it easy to set the depth
above or below the table (though occasionally it sticks briefly if I
haven't used it for a while). It also came with a pretty nice straight
guide, a circle guide, and 1/4" collet insert. And the collet has none
of the bit-release problems people were complaining about here some
years back (in old PCs, for example). I haven't seen any features on
other machines to make me regret my choice, though I haven't done a
detailed survey lately. I have a number of Ryobi tools (the 10" planer,
sliding compound saw) and I think they are have been excellent
value---perhaps a hair below the best-in-class, but much cheaper. 

It is rather heavy, which makes it hard to rout with minimal base
support, but I suppose there's no way to build a 3HP router that can
work like a laminate trimmer as well.

-Steve