Subject: Keeping up with the Norms's

From: [email-masked] (Alan)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:27:04 GMT

Ya know  I used to like Norm... back in the days when he had the same
tools as I had.

When he used to show us how to build cool things with tools, not cool
tools to build things with.  

Remember the Craftsmanship of Norm Abrams?  Not the Commercialism of
Norm Abrams....

I know it's partly jelousy.  But man if I bought every gadget Norm has
I wouldn't be able to afford any lumber..(not to mention "Antique
Pine").

Common Norm build something the old fashiion way... Make a mortis and
tennon with a drill and a chisel... like I have to.  If nothing else
use NEW Pine for something.

I guess I could save up my PBS donation money and buy a "Dedicated
Mortising Tool"
but then how could my local station buy your show....

I used to think it was so neat that you used a spindel sander on your
drill press, Just like me... now the 5 hp super boss is bumped another
coommonality we used to have.

Okay use your Laser guided miter saw your 30in planer and 60in
jointer... glue away with your 'Moistier Activated Glue" before you
cordless biscut it and pnuematicly nail everything together or screw
it together with a different screw gun for each type of screw... but
let me ask you two questions.....

Why do you wear a tool belt?  There aren't any tools on it

Do yoy even own a Hammer?  Ya know the real non fiberglass reinforced
non night vision type hammer.

Norm.... don't get so tool happy you forget the Tricks o' the
Trade.... those are what us commoners watch to see....give us a tip on
making the tools we HAVE work better for us..... 

Those antiques you copy, got built  without all the fancy gadgets and
dedicated this and that... I'm not saying go back to the WoodWright
days....but be a tradesman .... not a tradeshow....

I miss you Norm.... I LOVE your old shows....

Just my thoughts....

Alan
********************************************
Jesus is My Favorite Carpenter, 
  and he doesn't use a blade
         guard either.

Alan Murphy
Las Vegas, NV

********************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (Stev)
Date: 12 Feb 1997 00:16:25 GMT

>tools to build things with.  
[snipped]

>I miss you Norm.... I LOVE your old shows....

You are right. I actually watched this show the other day. I learned
some. If I ever buy some of the tools he was using, I could apply
what I learned.

stev

-- 
Send any Email to [email-masked]
The auto reply address is a fake.
************************************
Spammers READ:
Dont waste your time sending unwanted solicitations
to my address. There is no way I will buy anything
you have to offer.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 11 Feb 1997 22:23:01 -0700

Well said - well put.

I wonder sometimes if I can build anything I see since I don't have
all those tools, especially the projects Norm builds.

Norm is good - but what about projects for people without corporate
sponsors?

On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 05:27:04 GMT, [email-masked] (Alan)

>I miss you Norm.... I LOVE your old shows....

C-130 Trashhauler

---

From: Chuck Riccardo <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Feb 1997 02:11:32 GMT

>making the tools we HAVE work better for us..... 

<snip>

Sorry Alan ..... Norm built that half million dollar house he lives in by 
selling Delta planers and jointers to the great American 'Haves'. Indeed 
that is how he became one of them. It is they that suport the show that 
Delta "advertizes" on. ('public' television - give me a break). If you 
can't afford Delta - go watch Dean Johnson or something. Chuck Riccardo

---

From: [email-masked] (Kevin W. Tucker)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 14:03:31 GMT

>can't afford Delta - go watch Dean Johnson or something. Chuck Riccardo

A bit defensive there?  Perhap we have one to many Delta machines in our shop 
or maybe some Jet models too?  I am sure that WGBH and Delta get their cash 
>from  the "haves", but I can't call it advertising on PUBLIC TV (yes, I am a 
bit defensive here) when he uses a variety of tools and has never pointed out 
that "Delta makes the very best" or some other 1950's sales-pitch slogan.  All 
of the (expensive) power tools he uses are available from a variety of 
manufacturers.

That said, I do agree with the original post about getting back to a realistic 
level of power tool ownership/use relative to weekend warriors.  Has anyone on 
this group ever actually written/talked to Norm about this subject?  It would 
be interesting to see his reaction...

Kevin W. Tucker
[email-masked]

(remove the "*" from my address to reply)

---

From: [email-masked] (remove the _ before and after the @ to De-spam) (Keith)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:30:28 GMT

>when he uses a variety of tools and has never pointed out 
<<snip>>

"The Very Best" is a relative term.  Most professional shops consider Delta Base
line equipment, with bare minimal or less than satisfactory result.

Talk to the Germans, Austrians, or even the Italians and Spaniards and get their
opinion of "Delta: The Very Best".  Most Americans would be run off with their
tail between their legs.  Even from the European "hobbyist" 

If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing right. If a tool is worth purchasing,
purchase the right tool, once, one time.  With that said, there would be no
"Junk" out there in the market place, because no one would be buying it.

Sincerely,

Keith

Keith Hill, Project Manager, Forbes & Company
1002 Investment Blvd., Apex, NC. 27502-1954
(919)362-4277/387-7997(Fax)/303-0240(alt-Fax)
 
keithhill @ mindspring.com
www.mindspring.com/~keithhill/

---

From: "Eric A. Mercer" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:01:58 -0500

> some. If I ever buy some of the tools he was using, I could apply

Can't really say that I blame him.  If we could afford it, how many of
us could resist getting a nuclear powered, laser guided table saw with
radar tracking attachments and computer controlled alignment (accurate
down to 0.0000001 inch).  Add in the kevlar helmet & body armor
(remember: shop safety), and you really have something neat.  Who cares
if anyone can afford it.  It's not meant to be practical, it's meant to
be cool.  If I had money to blow, I'd be getting that crap, too.  Norm's
just trying to blur the line between his show & Tim Allen's.  I'm
waiting for the day when Norm gets a CAD/CAM shop.  

"This week we'll be copying this beautiful cabinet which some poor slob
spent 6 months building by hand over 200 years ago.  All I have to do is
push this button on the new Delta CAD/CAM woodworker 2000, and it pops
out this chute over here.  Of course, a measured drawring is available."

---

From: [email-masked] (Hodcarry)
Date: 12 Feb 1997 19:33:23 GMT

I think part of the fun is seeing all of the toys.  a lot of folks go to
woodworking shows for the same reason knowing they will never buy alll
sorts of ded. machines.  an idea for PBS is there a British Norm?

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Lemmond)
Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:03:28 GMT

>waiting for the day when Norm gets a CAD/CAM shop.  
...snip...

Hate to get sucked into Norm-threads, but I think many are being pretty
unfair to the guy. His shop tools are really not that impressive.
Setting aside the Hitachi resawing band saw recently added, nearly all
of his tools are only medium-to-high end consumer-grade only stuff. Do
you really think the Delta 14" Band Saw is the ultimate band saw on the
market?  Even Delta make a couple of bigger/nicer units, not to mention
the serious, commercial grade saws out there. He seemed to get
alot of miles out of his Delta 12" Planar. Outside of some imported
clones, this is about the smallest, cheapest planar available. Having
multiple, handheld routers, each pre-loaded with a favorite router bit
may seem extravagent, but it is common practice in commercial shop. You
can get 3 Porter Cable 690's for less than $500. Sure, that's a hunk of
money, but these will last at long time in a one-man shop. For many of
us weekend and/or evening amateurs, would probably last a lifetime.

Off the top of my head, I'd bet Norm's power tool collection is
probably worth only $10,000 to $12,000. I know this is more than I can
spend this weekend/month/year, and that very few folks here in r.ww
could affford this either. But purchased over a 5 to 10 year period, it
is not really out of line. Just compare that 12 grand to the amount of
money you might have spent over the last ten years on computer junk:
that old $3,000 Apple II and $4,000 IBM-PC AT and $3,000 Toshiba 386
LapTop, not to mention the dot-matrix printers and 2400 baud modems --
all that stuff is now sitting in your closet, gathering dust, and
probably is not worth even 1/10th of what you paid of it.

Could Norm build the stuff he does with a significantly smaller (and
cheaper) tool collection? Of course. But he has been at this a long
time now. Do you think you'll be using the same tools 10 years from now
as you do now?

For me, there is really only one "tool" that Norm has that I really
drool over, one that I think of as being almost unattainalbe for me --
the shop building itself! A dedicated building, with storage space, an
office, separate finishing room, and windows and skylights sure beats
the heck out of my dark, dreary basement.

-Peter

---

From: Steve Wallace <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:02:10 -0800

> >Ya know  I used to like Norm... back in the days when he had the same

So buy more tools!  ;^>

But seriously, there is only one tool in his shop that I think is rediculous
tooling for a serious hobbyist...not gonna say what it is, but it has 
a 3" blade.  ;^>  Even my buddies who are pros think that's a silly tool.
But what else is in his shop that is a goofy tool?  Table Saw?  Drill press?
Planer?  Jointer?  Powah mitah saw?  What?  granted, you may not need a
Unisaw, 16" DP, 15" planer, 8" jointer, and laser guided chop saw...a lower
end tool would prolly suit you fine.  But they are all useful tools...and
some of the folks (who are serious hobyists) here have every single one of 
them.  *I* don't, but I bet there are at least three well know names here 
that have all of these tools.  (and there's at least one of us who thinks
that the only tools that should be plugged into the wall are a bandsaw and 
a Skill 77 circular saw... ;^> )

It's just different levels of woodworking.  Not worse, not better, just 
different.

> >tools to build things with.

And he has just evolved a little.  He has shown you a gazillion ways to
cut a stopped dado.  he now just uses the easiest way that he has.  He
has shown you a gazillion ways to cut mortises.  He now just uses the
easiest way that he has.  That's how I look at it, anyhow.

> >Trade.... those are what us commoners watch to see....

I'm not sure of that.  There may be a large segment of the population
that watches just to see Norm use his new fancy tool (sort of a NYWS
drinking game crowd), but I don't really know.  You may not be part
of that crowd, so your POV may be out of phase from the average
person (*I* for one *hope* that my POV is not aligned with the average
fella...I've met the average fella...*wow*!)

> >give us a tip on

Like I said above, he *has* done that.  You may have missed the show, but
he has shown many different ways to perform many operations.

> >days....

Yes, you are.  that *exactly* what I was thinking as I read this...all those
antiques were built with blah...that's what Roy's show is for. (entertaining
as all get out, BTW).

> >but be a tradesman .... not a tradeshow....

Oh, I suspect he is one heckuva good *carpenter*. There are fellas (and gals)
here that are better furniture builders, cabinet makers, carvers, turners,
etc than he is...but that doesn't mean he's not a tradesman.  And he's 
getting better as the years go by.  He recently has been acknowledging that
wood moves, for example.

> some. If I ever buy some of the tools he was using, I could apply

Or you could apply what you learned to tools that you *do* own, I suppose.
Just a thought.  When I am faced with a task that would be easier with
a tool that I don't own, sometimes I buy the tool, and sometimes I do it
a different way, with the tools that I *do* own (or could borrow)...depends
on the value of the tool and several other parameters.  But I don't just
pout that I don't have a 3" resaw (dang!... I said I wasn't gonna say what
it was...)

Different folks have different financial resources and different priorities.
To some folks, Norm's shop is completely filled with worthless, silly tools.
To others, however, it is spartan, and don't see how he can get along without
the blurfl that he *doesn't* have!  Different POV, different ways of doing the
job at hand, different priorities.  And to that I only say "Vive le differance!"

And now for something completely different...

> to my address. There is no way I will buy anything

Spammers suck.  What is is with this crap lately?  Is it the AOL
mentality and the fact that everybody has internet access?  Not
that I'm trying to be elitist, but this crapola is getting really
annoying...I second your comment.  I am not interested in your web
page, your dating service, your garlic breath pills, your tweezers,
your get rich quick scheme, or anything else you fill my virtual
mail box with.

Later.
Steve. (kerfer on IRC)
-- 
"Buy the best, and only cry once."

---

From: "plathrop" <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Feb 1997 23:58:03 GMT

Oh just quit wining,  If someone gave or offered you one of those tools
would you turn them down,  what is interesting is to see what tools he will
 continue to use,  He has had the lazer miter saw for over 4 years now, I
think you cannot even get one now. 

Alan <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
>snipe

---

From: [email-masked] (David Roseman)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:44:54 GMT

>I wouldn't be able to afford any lumber..(not to mention "Antique

FWIW, the shop you see on NYW isn't Norm's.  It's a set located at, I
believe, Russell Morash's home.  dcr

---

From: Ken Stovesand <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:41:59 -0500

Kevin W. Tucker wrote:
> but I can't call it advertising on PUBLIC TV (yes, I am a
> that "Delta makes the very best" or some other 1950's sales-pitch slogan. 

I disagree that using tools on PBS is not advertising just because they
avoid a certain form of slogan. Do you really think that anyone would be
swayed to go buy a Unisaw if only they mentioned something like "it's
great"? Regardless, at the beginning they have a pretty good facsimile
of a commercial message for insurance, local woodworking stores, Delta,
etc.  Why don't these shows just go on a commercial station and give up
this PBS sham?

Regards,

Ken S.

---

From: Paul Tackowiak <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:50:28 -0800

Can you imagine the bickering and fighting that goes on between Norm's
"sponsors"? How hard is Delta pushing for Norm to dump that Porter Cable
(?) laser, miter saw? (Especially since it seems to have been pulled of
the market.) I wonder if these guys ever try to sneak on the set and
switch tools. I also wonder how poor Norm balances his appreciation for
a good tool with his sponsership obligations. How many sales people do
you think have probably sent Norm free tools to try out? Might we see
Norm suddenly pick up a cordless Impulse hammer instead of his
pneumatic? The behind-the-scenes intrigue is probably more interesting
than the actual projects.

---

From: [email-masked] (michael buening)
Date: 13 Feb 1997 13:47:15 GMT

Ken Stovesand ([email-masked]) wrote:
: I disagree that using tools on PBS is not advertising just because they
: avoid a certain form of slogan. Do you really think that anyone would be
: swayed to go buy a Unisaw if only they mentioned something like "it's
: great"? Regardless, at the beginning they have a pretty good facsimile
: of a commercial message for insurance, local woodworking stores, Delta,
: etc.  Why don't these shows just go on a commercial station and give up
: this PBS sham?

How do people suppose these shows get produced and displayed on PBS?
They money the average joe sends into the stations isn't going to cover
this.  If we restrict PBS to only those shows the general public is
going to pay for then we'll have 24hours of the Red Green Show (I'm not
slamming the show...no flames please...but duct tape doesn't cost that
much).  Yes when I watch NYWS before it starts I see an ad for Johnson's
Workbench (local woodworkers store) and Delta and Porter Cable power tools.
But, as was mentioned, Norm doesn't spend one bit of his time telling you
to buy the Delta brand bandsaw because that's the only one that works for
him and he doesn't tell me I have to use a PC router to get the perfect
round over.  As a matter of fact he doesn't spend much time talking
about the tools at all.  He shows you how he's using them.  

Now when you watch the Frugal Gourmet he will often tell you what specific
brand of something or other you should use.  This isn't from advertising
pressure (at least not obviously) but from a genuine need for a recipie.

Mike

-- 
Mike Buening 
Dept. of Chemistry and Biochemistry
University of Notre Dame
[email-masked]        http://www.nd.edu/~mbuening

---

From: [email-masked] (Steve Knight)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:26:16 GMT

Steve Wallace <[email-masked]> wrote:

 (who are serious hobyists) here have every single one of 
>a Skill 77 circular saw... ;^> )
There is the resaw bandsaw the 5 or so biscuit jointers 40.00 glue
applicator. 450.00 edge banding tool. Several planers. statinary
Buiscut jointer and I am sure there are a few other things I am
missing. Metal detector lots of old pine.

Doggie~ on Irc

---

From: Ken Stovesand <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:27:58 -0500

michael buening wrote:
> this. 

I contend that NYWS and Woodwright are the "cash cows" of PBS and
trigger the lion's share of the pledges.  These shows could most
certainly be commercial hits and stand on their own.  PBS would not be
able to produce the specials such as "Genesis - The Living Conversation"
without NYWS and its defacto Delta sponsorship.  I'm not criticizing the
PBS environment - just recognize it for what it is and don't portray it
as without commercialism.

Regards,

Ken S.

---

From: [email-masked]@biomed.med.yale.edu (Rick Beebe)
Date: 14 Feb 1997 06:10:52 GMT

>missing. Metal detector lots of old pine.

Watched over time, I find NYWS useful as a gauge of just which tools are 
actually useful. He has had truckloads of tools over the years, but which 
ones is he still using? Norm builds a hellava lot more furniture than I do 
in a year. 13 episodes of NYWS and he builds at least two of each project. 
The project books indicate that he often builds a third one for still 
photography.  So he's building at least 26 pieces of furniture a year
(subtract the occasional shed or gazebo) plus doing 26 episodes of This Old
House.  I gotta figure the guy is busy and he wants, needs, and is going to
use the best and fastest tools he can get.  Something thats cool and flashy
but doesn't save time or increase accuracy is going to get dumped.

Biscuit jointers:  he started out with a Porter-Cable (a version which I've
NEVER seen anywhere else) then he went through a couple of other brands but
has used the Elu for the past 3 or 4 seasons.  Now he's got this cordless
one.  Let's see if it stays around.  He had a Makita chop saw for the first
couple of years but that PC Laser-lok has stayed around for a long time.  I
don't think it's because it's a PC, I think it's because it does the job.

The $450.00 edge banding tool I saw exactly once. Since then I've seen him 
glue hardwood edge strips on several projects. That tells me I don't need 
one. Same with the stationary biscuit jointer.

He used a combination planer/jointer on a couple of shows but quickly 
went back to dedicated tools. Heck he didn't even keep the workbench that 
he built in the first season for more than two shows.

I've seen bunches of glue applicators, but not many of them have lasted. 
Several of the ones he's kept around I've gone out and bought and I haven't
been unhappy yet.

I noticed on the first show of this season that he was using one of those
replacement miter gauges that can only be set to 90 or 45 (but are supposed
to be extremely accurate at those settings).  He wasn't using it on the
show I saw last night though.  A gimmick? I want to see if it returns.

Having said that (and relating this back to the original thread) I do think
that they went overboard a bit in the 'season of recycled pine.' The 
projects were nice, but they made too big a deal out of the pine and stock 
preparation. He stepped too far away from the 'hey you can do this too' 
with that resaw and the 15 (20?) inch planer. That side of the shop has 
trekked into the realm of commercial shops.

Alternatively, the could move away from "let's watch Norm build something" 
to a much more 'showbiz' type show. Ie, have Norm joint two boards by hand 
while a crew of people in the back room run the rest of the stock through 
the jointer. Yeah, but then we'll have people complaining that they can't 
possibly afford that new $300 Lie Neilson jack plane...

   _____________________________________________________________________

     Rick Beebe                                           (203) 785-4566
     Data Network Operations
     Biomedical Computing Unit                    
     Yale University School of Medicine            
     333 Cedar Street, New Haven, CT 06510	  [email-masked]
    _____________________________________________________________________

---

From: [email-masked] (Kevin W. Tucker)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 14:46:07 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] wrote:
{snip}
  PBS would not be
>as without commercialism.

This is a bit off the group, but, I think you need to be a little more 
objective before dropping the commercial label.  In a related matter, museum's 
and other non-profits have received similar criticism of their programs or 
exhibitions as being "commercially biased" in nature due to a relationship 
with a certain sponsor.  Educational programming often has to rely on the 
private sector (just as certain congressmen insist) for support (after all, 
who wants to pay for education? ;D), and it is difficult if not impossible to 
say "you can't put your label/product" here even though you have handed us a 
chunk of change in sponsorship.  

That said, when Norm starts saying, "Get out your Delta Supergismo, now 
available through your local retailer", I think I'll quit watching.  Until 
then, give the guys a break.

Kevin W. Tucker
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Reid )
Date: 14 Feb 1997 14:42:58 GMT

You're right to say that it is advetising but it's no different than most
shows on PBS. e.g.  Mystery sponsored by the Mobile Corporation or Wall
Street Week sponsored by A.G. Edwards, et. al.

--
Mike Reid ([email-masked])

---

From: [email-masked] (Gregg Germain)
Date: 14 Feb 97 16:33:07 GMT

I use Norm's tool list as a sure indicator of the direction for me to
go:

180 degrees opposite.

--- Gregg
                                      Saville
[email-masked]                #29 Genie
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics   #1762 CRIS
Phone: (617) 496-7713                 "A Mig at your six is better than
                                       no Mig at all."

---

From: "Phil Anderson" <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Feb 97 16:15:27 GMT

Just one question...why?

Gregg Germain <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

---

From: "Dan Hamill" <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Feb 1997 03:41:36 GMT

We have to face it, the world now relies on sponsorship.

I own my own sporting goods agency, and the number of requests I get a year
>from  schools, teams, associations, etc is mind boggling.  It's unfair, but
when making the decision one ultimately has to decide how much exposure my
money, time, product donation, etc will provide.

PBS needs the cash, from Delta or from us.  I don't foresee much of an
actual endorsement coming from Norm on either show, that'd be like watching
Home Again with Bob Villa.  It probably won't have to get much different
either; with the TOH magazine now available, larger advertising revenues
can be generated there.

Norm's no Tiger Woods, and I doubt Delta's giving him $50 million like
Nike, but I'm sure he's doing ok with the print ads and show appearances. 
I hope so, because I still thoroughly enjoy his show, and the motivation to
buy more tools continues to work.

Safe and happy hobbying,

Dan Hamill
-- 
Dan Hamill
Atlantic Canada

Michael Reid  <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
: Ken Stovesand ([email-masked]) wrote:
: 
: : I disagree that using tools on PBS is not advertising just because they
: : avoid a certain form of slogan. Do you really think that anyone would
be
: : swayed to go buy a Unisaw if only they mentioned something like "it's
: : great"? Regardless, at the beginning they have a pretty good facsimile
: : of a commercial message for insurance, local woodworking stores, Delta,
: : etc.  Why don't these shows just go on a commercial station and give up
: : this PBS sham?
: 
: You're right to say that it is advetising but it's no different than most
: shows on PBS. e.g.  Mystery sponsored by the Mobile Corporation or Wall
: Street Week sponsored by A.G. Edwards, et. al.
: 
: --
: Mike Reid ([email-masked])
: