Subject: Re: Norm's Technique

From: G Potter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:55:40 -0800

Bob D. wrote:
>
> In article <[email-masked]>,
> Tom Perigrin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> >
> >No,  but the urge does rise when Norm takes an Antique Pine board, and
> >extolls the saw marks on it.  "See these saw mahks? They run up and down,
> >and that means they are from a beam saw and not a circulah saw.   That puts
> >them at least 150 years old.".   And then he runs both faces through his
> >planer.
>
> Ah yes, but if it a rust stained indent from a bent over nail or
> assorted chew marks of dubious origin, those are carefully preserved
> for the exposed face(s) because they "add charactah" to the finished
> product. :-)
>
I heard that in a future program, Norm is going to throw shoes (made of
antique pine, of course) at the camera.

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:50:58 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

;In article <[email-masked]>
[email-masked] writes:
;>From: [email-masked]
;>Subject: Norm's Technique
;>Date: 23 Mar 1997 14:20:48 GMT

;>e a good place to toss in a couple biscuits, but he didn't.

;Tom, PLEASE hit return once in awhile!

;>Would anyone really shoot holes in the front of a nice furniture
piece?

;Well, yes!  Actually, Norm USUALLY uses an 18g brad nailer that makes
pretty 
;little holes, that most people wouldn't notice.  This is the 'norm'
for 
;installing trim, also.

;Although I personally would never do that, it's common.  Older stuff,
for 
;example, tended to use a LOT of nails.

;>How would they be filled to make them blend in?

;They wouldn't.  The holes are little.  Using some sort of filler
would 
;probably make them stand out more.

;Rich

Rich I took a look at the artical in  FWW ,the one with the sliding
dovetail edge molding ,that is .
One the whole dont you think it was a little strange ? The top was
constructed more like a carcase base ,ie through dove tails .To me
personally to treat the carcase top in this manner seemed
strange,through dovetails with a xgrain molding outboard of that .As
far as fine woodworking goes this approach is not standard ,normal
construction would either be with the dovetails veneered over and the
molding glued and or nailed to the side [this technique of attaching
the could be used to advantage in this case]or preferably a solid
overlapping top with molded edges attached mechanically.
mjh

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:12:29 GMT

Snip
> overlapping top with molded edges attached mechanically.

Michael,
         Thomas Moser(Shaker/Mission Style Furniture) has been using 
this method for years.  Since they have a gallery/store in Portland
Maine I'm able to periodically visit and drool over their stuff.
This through dovetail joinery in the case construction with the dovetail
held on molding looks great on this style of furniture.  

  I haven't read the FWW article yet, but from seeing the Moser Furniture
they take short dovetail shaped blocks(~ 2 or 3 inches long) and screw 
them into the side of the cabinet varying amount of blocks depending on
how wide or deep the cabinet is, then the slide the molding onto the
dovetail blocks.  They then take and put a screw in from the inside of 
the cabinet to the front of the molding or near the miter.  Since they 
I believe oil and wax their furniture, you can see the top about an 
1/8 of an inch shorter than the molding in winter and the same length 
as the molding in summer.

    - Jon

---

From: "Thomas Paul Karrmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Mar 1997 20:50:36 GMT

The article in FWW referenced earlier in this thread is really very good. 
What is done is that the side molding is attached firmly at the front of
the case so that the miter does not come apart.  This does mean that the
molding will move at the back of the case which must be accounted for.  It
is still preferable to having the side of the cabinet split.

-- 
Tom Karrmann
Coming to you from beautiful Fond du Lac, WI

"Nothing can possibly go wrong!"
Opinions expressed are mine alone.

Mike McDonald <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
> In article <[email-masked]>,
> 	[email-masked] (Tom Perigrin) writes:
> > In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] wrote:
> 
<<< snip >>>
> 
>   This got me to thinking again (bad sign!). If you attach the molding on
a
> sliding mount so it can expand, won't it either gap or pressure the end
pieces?
> I'm think of something like on a table. (I'm building a desk, so it's
relevant
> to me.) Seems like where the two molding pieces meet at the mitre would
be a
> problem area.
>   Mike McDonald
>   [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds)
Date: 27 Mar 1997 19:03:02 GMT

Tom Perigrin writes
>... So we will see a whole bunch of
> people making mediochre cabinetry which will fall apart in a few years.  

It's been more than "a few years" since Norm's first shows were aired. 

Anyone built one of Norm's designs and have it "fall apart?"

- Bennett Leeds
[email-masked]

Just say Just wondering.

Opinions are mine alone.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Jones)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:41:44 GMT

>Michael,
snip
>as the molding in summer.

I have run into a similar cross grain situation with wooden drawer
glides in jewelry boxes.  I am using maple glides dove tailed into a
walnut box with a sliding dovetail.  I glue the front of the glide and
let the back run.  The box is only about 8 or 9 inches deep.  The 
grain in the side of the box is vertical.

Is this over kill?  I would rather glue the glide front and back but
am worried about expansion.

Jim

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:14:32 GMT

[email-masked] (Jim Jones) wrote:

;On Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:12:29 GMT, [email-masked] wrote:

;>
;>Michael,
;snip
;>  I haven't read the FWW article yet, but from seeing the Moser
Furniture
;>they take short dovetail shaped blocks(~ 2 or 3 inches long) and
screw 
;>them into the side of the cabinet varying amount of blocks depending
on
;>how wide or deep the cabinet is, then the slide the molding onto the
;>dovetail blocks.  They then take and put a screw in from the inside
of 
;>the cabinet to the front of the molding or near the miter.  Since
they 
;>I believe oil and wax their furniture, you can see the top about an 
;>1/8 of an inch shorter than the molding in winter and the same
length 
;>as the molding in summer.
;>
;>    - Jon

;I have run into a similar cross grain situation with wooden drawer
;glides in jewelry boxes.  I am using maple glides dove tailed into a
;walnut box with a sliding dovetail.  I glue the front of the glide
and
;let the back run.  The box is only about 8 or 9 inches deep.  The 
;grain in the side of the box is vertical.

;Is this over kill?  I would rather glue the glide front and back but
;am worried about expansion.

;Jim
I had totally forgotten the obvious joint for the top/side ,of a
carcase which is the secret dovetail .
Many English carcase pieces that are cracked  are a result of bad
repair techniques .
The top ,bottom ,and sides are generally dovetailed together,which
allows everything to move together .the drawers are designed similarly
The drawer runners are usually housed in dados and kept in plce by
"dustboards" [and not glued in ].In many instances the dustboard warp
so the repairman often cuts them out and glues the runners in which
usually ends up cracking the sides o the carcase.
mjh

---

From: "Richard J. Asarisi" <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Mar 1997 14:34:41 GMT

Lets see I made the Corner Cabinet and the Hutch too.  The corner about 5
years ago, still looks and works great, certainly hasn't fallen apart.  The
Hutch about 3 1/2 years go and it looks more beautiful everyday, again
certainly not falling apart.

Bennett Leeds <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

---

From: Philip Roybal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:51:47 -0800

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
> As a newbie to "fine" woodworking I toss out this question.  Norm built a chest of drawers (see how I resisted poking fun at his accent) a couple shows ago.  He attached the front edges to the carcass with his infamous brad gun and glue.  Looked to me like a good place to toss in a couple biscuits, but he didn't.
> 
> Would anyone really shoot holes in the front of a nice furniture piece?
> 
> How would they be filled to make them blend in?

I didn't see the show, but if the brads were just there to hold wood in
place while the glue dried, they might be an acceptable approach. It
depends upon whether you think it will take less time to cover up the
damage later than it would to put in a spline or biscuits to hold
things. 

When the piece is ready, the holes could be filled with a mixture of
wood dust and glue, or you could finish the piece and then fill the
holes with melted shellac stick, just as you might fill dings in any
finished piece.

Phil

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Perigrin)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:48:46 GMT

> certainly not falling apart.

About 20 years ago I made a plum and rosewood box for my sister.   I didn't
understand about wood movement then, and so I built it using the same type
of techniques that Norm used in his early shows.  The box looked lovely for
about 10 years, and then it had the misfortune of being moved from dry
Southern California to Oregon.  The expansion caused several joints to
fail.

I recently moved from Arizona to Ohio...  To top it off, I bought an old
Civil War era farmhouse that is low on the insulation department.  So we
wore a lot of sweaters and didn't heat it a lot.  AND, until we installed
French drains this last few months there was standing water in the
basement.  Needless to say the humidty was VERY HIGH this winter.   Going
>from  arrid Arizona to DAMP Ohio caused a lot of modern furniture built
using cross grain construction to fail.  However, most of the older
antiques that had been constructed with an eye to wood movement survived
the move.

My purpose for posting about wood movement is NOT to rag on Norm, per se'. 
Norm seems like a nice guy.  And it certainly isn't to give Bennett an
opportunity to make racist and anti-semitic remarks.  I am simply trying to
help other people learn from my mistakes. 

Failure due to wood movement doesn't generally happen in minutes.  Nor will
it neccesarily happen in a year or two, especially if the furniture is in
an environment with stable conditions.   But it will happen.

Let's retake this poll in 10, 20 and 50 years and see the results.

Tom

------

Due to the increasing prevelance of bulk mail senders that automatically
extract names from newsgroup postings, I have had to "bugger" my e-mail
address.   To send email directly to me, please remove the "*" in my e-mail
address.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Perigrin)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:36:10 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Bennett
> It's been more than "a few years" since Norm's first shows were aired. 

Bennet,

As you should know, I tend to look at things in the 20 - 300 year range. 
Your definition of a "few years" seems to be different from my definition
of a "few years".

Tom

------

---

From: [email-masked] (Hodcarry)
Date: 29 Mar 1997 13:50:55 GMT

An effective way to hide the nail holes (regardless if the nails are
removed after the glue dries)  is to raise a chip with a chisel ( leaving
one end still attached to the work) and drive the nail under the chip then
glue the chip back down.

---

From: [email-masked] (JaneAustin)
Date: 29 Mar 1997 17:24:44 GMT

WOW! Have I missed something here? Where did 'Bennett' say anything racist
or anti-Semitic in any of his posts?

JA

Subject: Re: Norm's Technique
From: [email-masked] (Tom Perigrin)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:48:46 GMT
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

<snip>

And it certainly isn't to give Bennett an
opportunity to make racist and anti-semitic remarks.

---

From: [email-masked] (Robert Galloway)
Date: 31 Mar 1997 06:56:14 -0700

On a cabinet, the top usually has the grain running the long way and no 
trim in back right?  The piece of trim in the front, with its grain also 
running the long way will change dimension exactly the same as the 
material of the top so at the two miters, there's no discrepancy.  The sides 
will probably have their grain at right angles to the trim so that's 
where the problem occures.  By anchoring the trim in front at the miter 
and letting it "sleep" on the dovetails, the discrepancy in dimensional 
change between the sides and the side trim will show up as a projection 
of the trim past the back of the cabinet when the sides shrink.  This 
approach should put NO strain on the miters.

rhg

In article <[email-masked]>,
Mike McDonald <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>> Well, I'm curious.  How did they do it?
>> 
>> Molding generally implies cross grain...   The horizontal molding has the
>> grain running the long way, attached to boards with the grain running "up
>> and down" at 90 degrees.  If you jsut nail it, the changes in the width of
>> the carcass will cause problems.  So, you attach the molding using sliding
>> dovetails, with buttons on the carcass and the slots in the molding.  Thus,
>> when the carcass changes dimension, it doesn't rip the nails out... it just
>> slides along.
>> 
>> Tom
>
>  This got me to thinking again (bad sign!). If you attach the molding on a
>sliding mount so it can expand, won't it either gap or pressure the end pieces?
>I'm think of something like on a table. (I'm building a desk, so it's relevant
>to me.) Seems like where the two molding pieces meet at the mitre would be a
>problem area.
>
>  Mike McDonald
>  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (pwcnva2)
Date: 31 Mar 1997 14:15:36 GMT

>one end still attached to the work) and drive the nail under the chip then

If you are gadget intensive, I believe I saw a Fingernail Chisel in the 
WoodCraft or Garrett Wade catalogue that performs this function.  You strike 
the head of this contraption and it lifts out a "perfect" chip every time 
(according to the caption).  I won't get into the "why would I buy one of 
these when I have a perfectly good chisel already" argument.

Brad W.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:28:14 UNDEFINED

>basement.  Needless to say the humidty was VERY HIGH this winter. 

Well, actually, that was far from needless-to-say.  You've got conflicting 
interests, there.  The humidity in the winter in a northern climate will be 
LOW, not high.  Obviously standing water will raise it, but the furnace, and 
the warming process, will really dry it out.

It's the summer in the great midwest that's humid.  We'll see what happens 
then!

>Let's retake this poll in 10, 20 and 50 years and see the results.

I have to agree with Bennett on this one.  : )  A few years, to me, means 3 to 
5.   The humidity is about the same every year, and even a polyurinated piece 
will completely adjust to surrounding humity in a couple months.  Thus, if the 
piece is not damaged within a few years, it shouldn't be in many years, UNLESS 
those few years are spent in an environment that's stable yearround.  Arizona, 
and most of CA qualify as such.   In a true four season state, it's a 
different story.

Rich

---

From: [email-masked] (Mike McDonald)
Date: 31 Mar 1997 21:27:59 GMT

> approach should put NO strain on the miters.

  This all makes sense provided the top is made out of the same material that
the molding is made out of. In my case, that's not true. The molding is solid
oak. The top is oak veneered plywood. I'd expect them to expand differently.
(I'm a newbie so I have no idea if what I'm saying makes sense or not. It's
just my educated guess.)

  Does anyone have a table of expansion factors for various woods and
composites? I'd guess it'd have to specify what temperature and humidity range
it was for.

  Mike McDonald
  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:32:10 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

;and most of CA qualify as such.   In a true four season state, it's a

;different story.

;Rich
If they play baseball in the snow I suppose that is then considered a
4 season state?
mjh

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Jones)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 03:05:18 GMT

On 31 Mar 1997 21:27:59 GMT, [email-masked] (Mike McDonald)
wrote:
snip
snip
>  [email-masked]

Mike, on a cabinet the molding should be attached to the carcase of
the cabinet, not the top.  If the top is solid, it must be attached so
the top can expand and contract.  If you are using veneered plywood
top and solid carcase, the top still has to be attached so the carcase
can expand and contract. 

Plywood has almost no movement with normal changes in humudity.
Solid wood has very little movement with the grain....lots of movement
across the grain.  In your case if the carcase and top of the cabinet 
are plywood you don't have to worry about movement

Jim

---

From: [email-masked] (Garrett Lambert)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 09:14:04 GMT

Serious question: what's a "French drain"?

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:57:55 UNDEFINED

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Michael John Hide) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:32:10 GMT

>If they play baseball in the snow I suppose that is then considered a

Yeah, something like that!

Rich

---

From: [email-masked] (Samrocky)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 16:11:07 GMT

Some time ago I read that Norm got his start in a very honest manner.  He
was working as a contractor, putting on an addition to a house, when a
friend of the owner came by.  This friend happened to be Morasch, who just
happened to be in need of a contractor/carpenter for his new show "This
Old House".  One thing led to another and Norm and Bob Vila were on TV. 
At the time TOH was the only show of its kind on air, certainly by todays
standards TOH cannot compare, but TOH certainly set the standard.  Norm
has learned a lot about building furniture since those early days.  We
must also remember that experienced wood workers are not his target
audience, except for entertainment purposes only.  Now one might respond
that the SHOP is not one of a beginner, agreed but Porter-Cable and Delta
feel a need for Norm to use the latest and greatest tools.  Do I watch New
Yankee Workshop, sure it gives me idea's .  Do I use all of Norms
techniques, no. As for the nail gun, recent incident comes to mind.  I was
taking a wood working seminar given by Frank Klausz, while cutting a
mortise and tenon by hand (about 5 minutes to finish)some one asked him if
he owns a nail gun, the response "a what?"

---

From: Dave Druckerman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 12:25:19 -0700

> Serious question: what's a "French drain"?

Garrett,

A french drain is a trench around the perimeter of a home to remove
subterrainean water.  The trench is normally made one to two feet below
the depth of the footings.  Note that it is important that the trench
not cut into the soil in the cone of compression under the
foundation/footing.  The zone of compression is an area beneath the
footing that extends downward at a 45 degree angle.   I digress.  

The trench is lined with a permeable cloth (I think it's called
landscaper's cloth, or something like that).  Then a layer of gravel,
then perforated drainage pipe (with the holes down), then more gravel
added until the gravel is, say, a foot below grade.  Then the cloth is
closed over the gravel, then dirt added to get back up to grade. 
Reseed, and you are done.  Note that the drainage pipe should slope 1/4"
per foot or so to insure drainage.  Drain to an appropriate reservoir or
sump pump.  Properly installed, they're supposed to last about 30
years.  

Also,  according to the paperwork I got on installing french drains, you
shouldn't have the roof drain lines go directly into the drain pipe, but
rather should be run into seperate, non-perforated pipe, not joining the
lines until you are at least 10 feet from the foundation.  This
eliminates the chance that the roof drains might saturate or overflow
the french drainage system. 

Why do I know all of this?  Let's just say that I'm in the process of
buying a new house and, as a result of the mechanical inspection, I'll
be renting a trencher and killing my back before winter comes again,
putting in about 200 feet of these critters.  At least no permits are
required.  (:-(

Dave Druckerman

P.S. Why is it called a french drain?  I haven't a clue, only
politically incorrect snide remarks.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 2 Apr 1997 01:03:45 GMT

>Serious question: what's a "French drain"?

Serious answer:  This is simply drain tile placed around an underground foundation (basement) either running to a sump where water can be pumped out or piped to a lower location (ravine).  This
provides an easy path for excess ground water keeping the basement dry.

Boy!  Has this thread ever strayed.

Regards,

Tom D

---

From: "James T. Curtis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 21:00:55 -0600

> Serious question: what's a "French drain"?

Garrett, I believe that a French Drain is a ditch filled with coarse
gravel and covered lightly with soil. It is used to carry surface water
away from a foundation. The bottom of the ditch needs to be piched away
>from  the structure. Sometimes, the water is dumped into a covered
cistern also filled with crushed stone.
Hope this helps,
Jim

---

From: Paul Worth <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 09:50:38 -0500

> one end still attached to the work) and drive the nail under the chip then

You're right about that but how does Norm fit the pneumatic nailer
under that sliver of wood?  He doesn't have a hammer, you know...

-=Paul Worth=-
[email-masked]

ob.rec.ww:  Do spindle sanders work as well on inside curves as
            stationary disk sanders work on outside curves?  If
            so, I gotta start saving my nickels.  My new Grizzly
            6" belt/9" disk sander works great!  It was an early
            birthday present...

---

From: Paul Worth <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:23:01 -0500

Mike McDonald wrote:
Discussion of wood movement and trim application deleted...

> composites? I'd guess it'd have to specify what temperature and humidity range
I'm sure there must be such tables available somewhere.  For many
composites, the expansion factor is near zero.  Check out the site
    http://www.apawood.org
for info on lots of engineered wood products.  They don't have a 
lot online but they have pointers to brochures and manufacturers.
Does Hoadley's book have these tables for solid woods.  I don't
recall....

-=Paul Worth=-
[email-masked]