Subject: Staining/finishing cherry kitchen cabinets

From: [email-masked] (jcw)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 16:51:17 GMT

I need some recommendations for (staining?) finishing cherry kitchen 
cabinets.  I'd like to keep the kitchen on the light side so my thought is to 
leave them natural with no stain.  How will this look (or is it recommended to 
at least apply a light stain to help bring out the grain)?  In terms of the 
finish, I don't own expensive spraying equipment so my options seem limited.  
Is it advisable to go with a polyurethane (water based) product such as Minwax 
which I can get in a spray can or are there better choices?  I'm making the 
cabinets myself so I'm inclined to spend a little more $$ if the end product 
is that much nicer.

As always, thanks for the help.

Jeff

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From: Chuck Knight <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:10:33 -0600

jcw wrote:
> leave them natural with no stain.  

Sounds good so far...in this group, staining cherry is almost considered
a 
sin.  While a very light wash of color can enhance the grain, it can be
hard 
to get it even...unstained is beautiful.

> In terms of the

Why?  Chippendale didn't have a spraying rig, either...neither did Adam, 
Hepplewhite, or any of the other famous frniture makers of the last few 
centuries.  It didn't ruin *their* work...

> which I can get in a spray can or are there better choices?  

NO!  No spray cans...

Here are some tips for a successful finish.  First, cherry has a
wonderful, 
deep beautiful grain...we don't want to cover it up.  A penetrating
finish 
would probably mess it up.  Ordinarily, I would use something like
shellac,
but as this is a kitchen you need something tougher.

An oil finish is quite beautiful.  Hand rubbed tung oil can be a
magnificent
finish...it's the finish on the chair I'm sitting in right now, and it's
held
up beautifully over the years.  However, while it will really show off
the
figure of the grain, there is an even better choice.

A linseed oil finish will show off the grain in cherry best of all the
finishes
that I'm aware of.  Hand rubbed, it can create a mirror smooth surface,
and the
grain looks almost like stained glass...you look *into* the wood, rather
than
*at* its surface.  But, it's a lot of work...and it takes a long time to
dry.

There's a "new" product that's been mentioned in the newsgroup
lately...a
"diamond" finish varathane which is said to have the same kinds of
qualities
I'm talking about for the oil finishes...fantastically deep finish. 
I've not
tried it...it seems to also be a lot of work, but also worth the
trouble.

> As always, thanks for the help.

Well, remember that cherry is photosensitive...it will darken on
exposure to
light.  Specifically UV...a UV blocking finish will help prevent this,
but
the gorgeous darkened tones of naturally aged cherry is something that I
cherish.  *I* wouldn't *want* to prevent the darkening.

To keep the kitchen "light" I would carefully choose my accessories. 
For
example, while beautiful, many people choose a dark black marble or
granite
for countertops, for use with cherry cabinets.  This lends an overall
"darker"
look than something lighter.  Even something like a white solid surface 
material can look quite nice, and significantly "lightens" the
room...the
cherry can stand on its own.  Similarly, instead of black appliances,
steel
or white can also look quite nice, and also lighten the room.

Just trying to make you aware that, while the cabinets are the bulk of
the 
visual mass of the room...the accessories are what can really "make" it.

     -- Chuck Knight

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:19:32 UNDEFINED

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (jcw) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (jcw)
>Subject: Staining/finishing cherry kitchen cabinets
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 16:51:17 GMT

>at least apply a light stain to help bring out the grain)?

Cherry looks by far the best with a plain oil finish.  Legislators are 
currently considering a bill sponsored by O'Deen and myself to outlaw staining 
cherry.

Stain does NOT 'bring out the grain' - it only hides the natural color.  BTW, 
it's called 'figure'.

  In terms of the 
>which I can get in a spray can or are there better choices? 

I've tried water-based products on cherry.  I thought it was pretty, until I 
made several items from cherry, and finished them with oil.  No contest.

Because of the abuse kitchen cabinets get (from wet and dirty hands all day, 
every day), using PU is certainly tempting.  If you do, though, stick with 
oil-based, for beauty's sake.

Rich

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From: [email-masked] (John Paquay)
Date: 31 Mar 1997 19:21:14 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>at least apply a light stain to help bring out the grain)?

Cherry is beautiful without any stain at all -- in fact, I think it
looks much better when finished without a stain.  Any clear
finish will bring out the grain -- some better than others, of course.

Try wetting it down with mineral spirits just to see what the grain
and color will look like (it will be considerably darker than it is
now, even with only clear finish applied...).   If you want to prevent
the cherry from darkening further, which it will do quickly if left to its
own devices, you need to protect it from UV light.  Check Dejanews
for recent discussions about the topic in this NG.

-- 
John Paquay
Dept. of Physics, Purdue University
[email-masked],  [email-masked]
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~jep/cshop.html
--------------------------------------------------------

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From: Jack Juhola <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:03:18 -0800

I have to agree with the other posts . . . oil is the way to go to bring
out the true beauty of cherry.  I just completed a cherry sofa table and
when considering the finish, thought it might need a little more
protection than straight oil (tung or boiled linseed) might offer.  So,
I opted for a combination finish of BLO/Tung oil/Varnish. There have
been several articles in recent issues of WW magazines (see FWW Feb. '97
#122) that discuss similar mixtures, e.g. oil/turpentine/varnish, etc.
and their application. I didn't mix mine myself, but rather opted to buy
Sam Maloof's oil/varnish blend (available from The Woodworker's Store).
Absolutely foolproof to apply -- just wipe it on and wipe it off. The
oils bring out the character of the cherry, plus they thin the varnish,
allowing easy application and a glass-smooth finish without dust specks.
And the varnish provides added moisture protection. 

If you do go this direction, just one note of advice (from experience):
after applying a oil/varnish mixture, let it soak in for 10-15 minutes,
keeping the surface wet, the wipe if off dry . . . really dry. I was
tempted to leave just a bit on the surface to help build the finish more
quickly -- DON'T DO IT!!! If you don't wipe off the excess, you wind up
with a really gooey mess that's too gummy to sand and is generally a
real pain to clean off. Wipe off the excess, let it dry overnight, then
do it again. Three or four coats should do the trick. Good luck!

Jack J.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:34:11 -0500

> Stain does NOT 'bring out the grain' - it only hides the natural color.  BTW,
 
"Cherry looks best . . ." What a canard! Natural, unstained cherry has
its place, as does stained cherry as does painted cherry. It depends on
the tastes of the designor. The notion that the wood cannot be
beautified and that coloring it is somehow blasphemous is as silly as
you get.

Let us take it one or two steps further: nevermind coloring the wood. If
you mill and machine the wood and change its natural state, or if you
slice the trunk of the tree, or if you do even cut down the tree you
have commited an atrocity (what George Washington did). Silly!

Staining cherry is not tar and feathering the wood (and what if THAT is
how I like my cherry?). Stained vs. unstained cherry are apples and
oranges, if you know what I mean. 

I just took a pair of cherry doors and toned them darker. When one
speaks of "hiding" in the world of finishing, one is referring to a
tendancy to "paint out" or opacify a wood by the application of so much
of a pigmented stain, that it almosts looks as though you painted the
wood (the difference between a stain and a paint is the ability for the
stain to be translucent and for the paint to be opaque).

The figure of the wood is its grain pattern. Since stains color the
grain differently than they color the "meat" of the wood (I do not know
the biological terminology, so you will have to bear with my vulgarisms
here), they can enhance the figure, i.e., "bring out the grain". Too
much of the wrong kind, and the finish starts to look muddy. That is
hiding. 

And, hiding has its place. In 1986 when the prices of cherry
skyrocketed, Sumter Cabinet Company made the decision not to introduce
"selected solids" (a/k/a maple, alder, tulipwood or birch) into ther
all-cherry casegoods. The only way to keep production costs in check and
still sell furniture with a consistent coloring was to apply the stain
dark enough and opaque enough so that the finish was muddied, but not so
"hidden" or opaque that you still could not distinguish the beautiful
wood as cherry. (They make Queen Anne 18th Century genre suites, that
TYPICALLY are dark maroonish browns.) This was their method of buying
the lumber that they could afford from different mills and lumber yards,
and this is how they "equalized" the woods so that they could produce
furniture that had some consistency to it. To me, that spells integrity
(since, also with the difficulties of obtaining cabinet grade wood for
their all solid-wood construction, production slowed and shipping times
were as long as one year until supplies and prices stabilized. They were
not willing to change woods, even if it meant a reduction in business!)

When it comes to finishing woods, there are so many variables involved
that to be dogmatic in tastes, especially on the phoney issue of
staining this wood, leaving that wood unstained, or what type of finish
to build on top of the wood and what sheen, etc., that is the real
atrocity. And, to compund this doctrinaire foolishness by leading others
astray without a caveat that such an aesthetic is your own humble
opinion, that is truely aggregious.

Personally, I like formica, but only if it is put on a particle board
substrate cut from old-growth trees. Let the stupid owls find some
different spots in other trees.
-- 
(To reply, change "webspam" to "webspan" in my e-mail address.)
-------
 Daniel

    / `-' )        ,,,
   | IU U||||||||[:::]
    \_.-.(         '''

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From: [email-masked] (stev)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 08:16:50 GMT

>And the varnish provides added moisture protection. 

Im intrigued by this Sam Maloof mixture. Truly a wipe on finish? No 
brushes?  No runs? Does it build a decent shine? Im in the process of
making a dresser for the female crittur, and want to get away from the
watco/poly topcoat Ive been using cause its a pain in the butt to get
it real smooth with no streaks.

stev

-- 
stev_ix_netcom_com
Add the @ and the dots, the auto reply address
is a fake. Sorry, Im tired of all the crap I
get in the mail.     
************************************

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From: [email-masked] (stev)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 08:19:31 GMT

>As always, thanks for the help.

First of all, ignore the other cherry finishing thread going and pay
attention to the guys responding here that believe staining cherry is 
a sin. Others will try to mislead you and have you mixing up paint and
other substances to apply to your cherry. 
Ive been putting on watco oil, which darkens the cherry a bit and brings 
out the grain real good. Then I topcoat it with that water based poly
made by varathane. I have tried varathane only on some test stock, and 
it was lighter, but I like the way the oil brings out the grain more.
I think for the lightest tone, water based poly with uv inhibitors is
probably the way to go. 

stev

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From: [email-masked] (jcw)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 13:29:31 GMT

Thanks for the responses so far.  To follow up:

What about a product like Waterlox?  Won't this provide a nice "hand-rubbed" 
look with some added protection from kitchen abuse such as water, oils & 
grease, etc?  I'm not too keen on applying a poly coat (eventhough I 
understand it may help minimize wood darkening due to UV exposure).

Jeff

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:31:51 UNDEFINED

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>From: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: Staining/finishing cherry kitchen cabinets
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:34:11 -0500

> 
>"Cherry looks best . . ." What a canard!

No, it is called an opinion - as is your long-winded reply.  A canard it is 
not.

 Natural, unstained cherry has
>its place, as does stained cherry as does painted cherry

Yeah, right.  911 has been called.

The notion that the wood cannot be
>beautified and that coloring it is somehow blasphemous is as silly as

No, I get much sillier than that at times!  That particular belief is barely 
on the 'silly' scale.

>have commited an atrocity (what George Washington did). Silly!

Yes, that is silly.  But most will agree that the wood is prettier than the 
bark, and that furniture is more useful than logs.  So your point is 
completely irrelevant.

>oranges, if you know what I mean. 

I'm afraid I don't.  One takes max. advantage of one of the most beautiful 
woods on the planet, and one covers it up.  Not much to compare, I'm afraid.

>I just took a pair of cherry doors and toned them darker.

No, you stained them.

>the difference between a stain and a paint is the ability for the 

Thanks for the lesson in the obvious.

>. Too

Any stain is hiding.  As you pointed out, stain is simply thinned paint.

>not willing to change woods, even if it meant a reduction in business!)

Sumter?  What, do you have stock in them or something.  I am just so thrilled 
that they chose to continue to waste solid cherry in their virtually-painted 
'furniture'.  What a classy company!  Your notion that making a business 
decision is more noble than saving cherry for those who like it's looks is 
absurd.

Unfortunately, the average person will never accept that wood is a natural 
material.  The whole POINT is that one board looks different from any other.  
To 'equalize' them all is not my idea of integrity.

>When it comes to finishing woods, there are so many variables 
involved>that to be dogmatic in tastes, especially on the phoney issue of
>atrocity.

So now it's atrocious to have taste? Has the cruiser arrived at your home yet?

 And, to compund this doctrinaire foolishness by leading others
>opinion, that is truely aggregious.

Ooh, big words.  Now I'm REALLY impressed.  OTOH, if you really write like 
that to everyone, I can see how you might be someone who would paint cherry.

>substrate cut from old-growth trees.

Nah, formica should never be put on a solid wood platform.

Rich
Just say this guy must be an architect

---

From: Patrick Olguin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:54:09 -0500

> > currently considering a bill sponsored by O'Deen and myself to outlaw staining
[snip] 
> beautified and that coloring it is somehow blasphemous is as silly as

[some spectacular rationalizations - clear evidence that there are indeed
notions which are sillier - snipped] 

And I thought I was the best rationalizer.

It's much simpler than you think. While there may be bizarre documented
cases of the world being made a better place, and revered institutions
being saved, cherry is a wood which stands on its own. That is, with
exposure to light, it darkens, giving it a wonderful patina. What Rich,
myself, and other so-called purveyors of dogma are trying to get across is
that one not need to stain cherry. The use of hyperbole gets attention.

Despite the yarns...errr anecdotes you supplied, I believe that painting
cherry is a waste of a scarce resource. Poplar takes paint quite well.
Tints and other effects are better used on woods that don't look as
beautiful as cherry (when finished with a simple oil or oil/varnish
coating). There is no wood which looks like cherry, so why make cherry
look like something else?

As for someone else's argument that to make things match perfectly, Ethan
Allen bleaches, then tints/stains their furniture, if that's what someone
wants, then they should buy it, and leave the available cherry lumber to
those of us who appreciate its subtleties. I shudder at the millions of bd
ft of wood ruined by "designers" and their tastes. 

I visted a fellow woodworker's home last fall, and admired the simple
cherry table he made. I believe it had an oil finish. The glued-up panel
had boards of several slightly different hues. It added character to the
piece; made it look more like wood, than stamped Formica on top of
old-growth particleboard. That is a swell table, TB. I wish I'd taken a
picture of it home with me.

Death before staining....

---

From: Joann & David Harms <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:48:30 -0500

> As always, thanks for the help.
If light is what you want, use no stain. The cherry will darken  some
even after finish is applied.