Subject: Re: Build Cabinets using all Hardwood

From: Colin Montoya-Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:53:15 -0700

bcompton wrote:
> 
> It seems particle board (various types) and plywood is the predominate
> building material for cabinet boxes. Does anyone use hardwood for the
> boxes.
> 
> Other than expense why use plywood or particle board if you can use the
> real stuff?
> 
> I'm an amateur woodworker and would appreciate all comments.

Hi Bill,
For kitchen cabinet grade stuff, I doubt anyone is using hardwood
because, as you mentioned the expense would be too great, and the labor
would be prohibitive.  

As far as the other reasons, plywood and other sheet goods are more
stable, more uniform, and make better substrates for things like counter
tops.  I guess the other thing that comes to mind is that the carcasses
are mostly hidden behind doors and drawers, so it seems like an awful
waste of precious hardwoods.  Kind of like framing your house in walnut,
nice to know you used good stuff, but what's the point if fir works just
as well, and no one will ever see it?
-Colin

---

From: [email-masked] (James DuPrie)
Date: 27 Mar 1997 19:48:06 GMT

the expense is the big reason. there is the expense of materials
(solid wood costs a lot more than ply or compsites), and the cost
of labour. Its a lot cheaper to cut a 8'4' panel to size than it is
to edgejoint, glue and trim a bunch of planks.
	Personally, all I ever use ply or composites for is to
put under my bench (concrete floor, and the "wood" is better for
standing on). On the other hand, I do 'way top end custom work.
Most of the work I do is 100% hand work (including stock dimensioning).
This pretty much eliminates the cost factor - folks that can't afford to pay 
the stock and labour costs can't afford my work anyway.......
			JD

In article <[email-masked]>, 
[email-masked] says...
 >Bill Compton
 >[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Perigrin)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:23:53 GMT

> I'm an amateur woodworker and would appreciate all comments.

What type of cabinets?   Kitchen cabinets?  Or free standing trophy
cabinets?  The answers will be different depending on the type...

Tom

------

Due to the increasing prevelance of bulk mail senders that automatically
extract names from newsgroup postings, I have had to "bugger" my e-mail
address.   To send email directly to me, please remove the "*" in my e-mail
address.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tim)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 01:57:19 GMT

>as well, and no one will ever see it?

As a side note to this, I've heard guys talk about how crummy it is to
use particle board as a substrate for laminate countertops and how
they "do it right" and use ACX ply....harharhar.   Laminate
manufacturer's recommend particle board (the good stuff, not "big
flake" stuff)  under their products.  A rep once showed me a graph of
how particle board reacts to moisture and temp changes overlayed with
the same info for p-lam, they were very close.  Material moves
together, less problems down the road.  Right material for the job,
less problems for the customer who paid to have it done right.
Composite materials may not have the appeal of solid wood but I use
them whenever called for and save the solids for furniture.

Tim

---

From: [email-masked] (#10 Ox)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 14:21:48 GMT

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 01:57:19 GMT "[email-masked] (Tim)" posted to
"rec.woodworking" on the subject "Re: Build Cabinets using all Hardwood" :

You may be in love mdf, but should realise that unless you're using medite
or some other reduced formaldehyde material you are installing a known
carcinogen.  The urea formaldehyde that typically composes ~%50 of the
actual material does not fully cure, (versus phenol formaldehyde resin
which comes much closer to a full cure), and the material will give off
formaldehyde in significant and dangerous quantities for at least 5 to 10
years.  Say what you want, but personally I don't want to install a cancer
causing material in the microenvironment of my house!  If it doesn't matter
to you, tho, I have heard that carbon tetrachloride is a GREAT cleaner, and
Tertiary butyl amine borane is reputed to be quite tasty.  I recommend
hardwood plywood over mdf or other particle type boards any day.  Less
resin, and more stability when exposed to moisture.  Doh, have you ever
seen a particle product that didn't fall apart on exposure to moisture?
Excepting of course Marine grade mat, which would probably be too expensive
to use for regular cabinets.    Enjoy, TS

-->>Hi Bill,
-->>For kitchen cabinet grade stuff, I doubt anyone is using hardwood
-->>because, as you mentioned the expense would be too great, and the labor
-->>would be prohibitive.  
-->
-->>As far as the other reasons, plywood and other sheet goods are more
-->>stable, more uniform, and make better substrates for things like
counter
-->>tops.  I guess the other thing that comes to mind is that the carcasses
-->>are mostly hidden behind doors and drawers, so it seems like an awful
-->>waste of precious hardwoods.  Kind of like framing your house in
walnut,
-->>nice to know you used good stuff, but what's the point if fir works
just
-->>as well, and no one will ever see it?
-->>-Colin
-->
-->
-->As a side note to this, I've heard guys talk about how crummy it is to
-->use particle board as a substrate for laminate countertops and how
-->they "do it right" and use ACX ply....harharhar.   Laminate
-->manufacturer's recommend particle board (the good stuff, not "big
-->flake" stuff)  under their products.  A rep once showed me a graph of
-->how particle board reacts to moisture and temp changes overlayed with
-->the same info for p-lam, they were very close.  Material moves
-->together, less problems down the road.  Right material for the job,
-->less problems for the customer who paid to have it done right.
-->Composite materials may not have the appeal of solid wood but I use
-->them whenever called for and save the solids for furniture.
-->
-->Tim
-->

---

From: Colin Montoya-Lewis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:39:47 -0700

> to use for regular cabinets.    Enjoy, TS

Hi,
Actually, you raise a valid point, despite your lack of graciousness. 
Since you quoted me in your post, I feel compelled to respond.

New homes, in particular, are a problem because they lack the
"cleansing" breezes of draftier older homes.  Carpets, flooring, paints,
wallcovering......just about everything in a new home contains some sort
of chemical that continues to out-gas for some time.  Many people are
oblivious, many can have severe reactions.

I don't build cabinets, so I don't typically use much sheet material.  I
work primarily with solid stock, but have occasionally used veneer over
MDF in my furniture when the design called for it.  I prefer medite. 
But it is possible to seal urea-formaldehyde based MDF and particle
board by simply spraying a coating on all exposed surfaces, like the
underside of a kitchen counter.

And, lastly (I suppose I saved the best for last) as to your
recommendation to use hardwood plywood to avoid urea-formaldehyde, most
plywood today (yes, even non-marine grade) is manufactured with
waterproof adhesive...Guess which one....

-Colin