Subject: Re: What finish for hardwood floors?

From: "eugene kulinek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:48:10 GMT

> >Lately, I've been wondering whether having the floors sealed and waxed
> >wouldn't be better.  The maintenance is higher and is ongoing with waxed
> >floors but scratches are easily repaired.
> 

I also want to apply seal + wax or maybe some other type of finish instead
of wax (e.g. Dura seal has something that is not wax hence can be easier
repaired). I phoned some floor manufacturers, Bruce and Mirrage, and yes
you have to explain a lot as most of their business is in urethane floors.
Urathane is a nusance when someone has kids playing with car toys and dogs.
It will scratch for sure so why bother.

So you are not alone in this. I talked to some builders and some agreed
that seal+finish solvent (ala wax) is a better approach when you have lot
of wear on the floor. 

I have applied urethanne (2 coats) on pine stairs 8 y ago and now it wears
off on the edges a lot. Urethane is not any harder if base (pine) is soft. 

Let me know if you found a good seal/wax manufacturer. I want to find a
manufacturer that actually targets this type of finish in his product
family (e.g. there would be not only seal but also something for finishing,
etc).
Eugene

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:33:57 UNDEFINED

In article <01bc3b9e$760d83c0$c5ade1cc@kulinek> "eugene kulinek" <[email-masked]> writes:
>From: "eugene kulinek" <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: What finish for hardwood floors?
>Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:48:10 GMT

>It will scratch for sure so why bother.

An interesting comment, and I wonder why you would write that.  The vast 
majority of hardwood floors are finished with PU.  The reason is lack of 
maintenance required.

>that seal+finish solvent (ala wax) is a better approach when you have lot

But most didn't, I'd wager.  On  the contrary, I would not use wax unless I 
DIDN'T have much wear.  Wax scratches real easily, and the frequent stripping 
and rewaxing is too much trouble for most folks.

When I grew up, every house had a 3/4" red oak floor standard.  This was an 
era when oak was recognized for what it was, and is: a utility wood - well 
before it got fashionable.  An oak floor, then, was considered a basic element 
of a house, not the trendy luxury that it usually considered today.

Varnishes that stood up well to floor use didn't exist, so the floors were 
waxed.  I remember my mom hated the chore of stripping and rewaxing (who 
wouldn't?), and her (like most people) used large rugs.  Wall-to-wall carpet 
was not yet common, but once it was, everyone had to have it - no more waxing!

It's interesting that some have come full circle - actually preferring (or 
thinking that they will) the maintenance to the PU look.  I try to use a 
finish that's appropriate for the use.  Although I greatly prefer the look of 
an oil finish to PU on furniture, jewelry boxes, and even trim, I varnish my 
floors with PU.

 Why?  Once completely dry (allow a couple weeks, at least), 
it's very durable.  My floors were finished 10 years ago, and still look good. 
And then there's resistance to spills, and moisture.  I finished my window 
sills with PU, since they get wet often, and they're horizontal.  Standing 
water on a plain oil finish is real bad news.

If I had no kids, I might be inclined to favor pure aesthetics and tradition 
over function.  But I do, and I prefer to play with them, than doing floor 
finish maintenance.

>off on the edges a lot. Urethane is not any harder if base (pine) is soft. 

Pine is not a good choice for stairs, or even floors - unless you don't mind 
lots of dents and fast wear.  And, 2 coats of PU isn't enough for stair edges, 
especially pine.  But despite these flaws, you got 8 years out of it, and yet 
you're complaining?  Hmmm.  Wax would start to wear off of stair edges in a 
matter of weeks.

The look of PU also depends on the varnish used, and how it is applied.  
Certainly it's easier to apply to horizontal surfaces, just as oil is.  It's 
not difficult to get a very smooth, glob free application on a floor, even 
with oil-based.  

Water-based PU is highly self-leveling, so it's a breeze to get a smooth coat, 
as long as you keep a wet edge, which can get tricky, given the short set-up 
time.  OTOH, water-based is clear, so you don't get that 'golden oak' look 
that so many people like.  It's personal preference.

As for odor, any oil-based finish smells bad, and can make some people dizzy 
and nauseous.  Water-based still smells, but much less, and it goes away 
quicker.

I wouldn't finish my floors in the winter, because I consider ventilation a 
must.  I open strategic windows, and use a box fan to pull fresh air in.  
Basically, two days or so of odors is a small price for ten years of use.

Rich

From [email-masked], [email-masked] Wed Apr  2 12:02:56 EST 1997
Article: 193131 of rec.woodworking
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From: Mitch Berkson <[email-masked]>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Subject: How to mount on/off switch box on Unisaw?
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:46:02 -0500
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It seems like this should be pretty obvious, but it's not to me.  On a
new Unisaw with a Unifence, where is the switch box with the on/off
buttons mounted?  In some pictures it is shown mounted on the saw
enclosure, which would be fine, but there are no holes for that.  

It could be mounted with the same screw that holds the Unifence on, but
that wouldn't be too structurally great since the sort of flimsy switch
box mounting bracket would be sandwiched onto the same screw holding the
Unifence to the saw table.

Thanks for any help.

Mitch

---

From: "eugene kulinek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:27:31 GMT

Can you tell me the title of this book. I am also looking for info on this
topic. Thanks for advice. I need some literature to back up use of
non-urethane finish.
Eugene

> 
> Allow me to quote from a Chemical Publishing book on shellac.  
> 
> <begin quote>
> 
> The traditional use of shellac on floors goes back to the historic
> buildings of England where the wooden surfaces have been shellacked
> for many years.  This process was carried to America where shellacked
> floors of the fine drawing rooms of the oldest homes have stood for
> many years and appeared neither white nor cracked.  In order to better
> style the homes of today, it is often necessary to stain and finish
> the wood to complement the rest of the decoration.  A well finished
> shellac floor is a soft textured addition to any scheme of decoration,
> as the use of white shellac does not cover but rather enhance the
> beauty of natural patterns.
> 
> One of the many reasons why shellac is preferred for floor finishing
> is the sealing action inherent in this natural resin.  A thin coat of
> shellac actually penetrates the surface of the wood, becoming part of
> the upper layer of interlaced cells, and after drying, it bonds with
> the wood to a surface this is hard nad yet pliable.  Furthermore, this
> ability, is proof against chipping and turning white.  The durability
> of shellac, properly applied, is excellent.  Shellac should be applied
> in the proper cut, generally a 2 pound cut for the first coat and
> allowed to dry for at least and hour.  The second coat should dry
> longer, and even longer for the remaining coats.
> 
> Waxed floors that have had the wax applied directly to the raw wood
> will arken steadily with age since the soft wax finsh permits the dirt
> to penetrate through it into the wood pores.
> 
> Therefore, all floors that are to be waxed should first be sealed with
> shellac before wax is applied.  This prevents dirt from pnetrating
> into the wood.  From time to time the soiled wax coating can be
> removed as readily as old polish is removed from shoes by sponging
> with mineral spirits.  Rewaxed, the floor should regain its new
> appearance.  Thus when a wax finish is desired, the floor should first
> receive at least one thin coat of shellac and probably two.
> 
> <end of quote>
> 
> I have more if you need.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
>

---

From: [email-masked] (Kevin W. Tucker)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 97 19:05:29 GMT

>and rewaxing is too much trouble for most folks.

Somewhat labor intensive (althought with a motorized buffer, certainly no more 
than running a vacuum across rugs), but the results are worth it - even in 
high-traffic areas.  Our museum has 90 year-old oak (and heart pine) floors 
that have not been varnished in 47 years - just monthly applications of wax 
with a buffer.  They look great, though certainly not as glossy and pristine 
as a sanded and polyed surface...

Kevin W. Tucker
[email-masked]

(remove the "*" from my address to reply)

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 02:25:20 GMT

My favorite is "Original Fabulon". It's a specialized floor lacquer
containing a synthetic wax and a synthetic oil. IMHO you should have
lots of ventilation and a wear a respirator when applying it. I have a
33 year old red oak floor with the original finish that looks very
good. I have touched up a few worn areas. Being a lacquer,  new
applications melt into the dried finish and blend in very well. Looks
better than polyureathane as far as I'm concerned. You can order it
>from  a Pratt & Lambert dealer.

---

From: "Charles (Joe) Stahelin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:12:42 +0100

snip
In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] writes
>majority of hardwood floors are finished with PU.  The reason is lack of 
snip

I think the author of the above snippet must be engaged in selling
rather than in practical maintenance.   

Although I retired some time ago and may be out of touch with the latest
products I have yet to find a floor seal which is impervious to the
effects of grit, dust and other abrasive materials that get carried into
buildings on peoples' feet.   

The sanding and resealing of a worn or damaged floor is not only a time
consuming inconvenient process, it is also an expensive process.

The reason for applying a dressing on top of polyurethane and other
floor seals is to provide a wearing surface which both protects the
basic seal and which can  be refinished, easily, to provide a good
looking floor.   Note that I do not use the term polish as there is a
choice of floor finishes with differing wear properties and differing
degrees of shine.

In my experience the buffable, metalised, water-based floor finishes are
practical products for most situations.   If they are properly applied
and maintained they are not demanding and never need stripping off
provided that the floor is always cleaned properly before more polish is
applied.  Machine burnishing is recommended.

Golden rules: 
1.  Clean thoroughly before re-application.
2.  Apply in THIN coats.  Three thin are better than two thick.

DO NOT FORGET:  The most important thing is to concentrate on the
prevention of the entry into premises of dirt and abrasives carried on
footwear and clothing.   Doormats and things "spoil" appearances and are
very rarely big enough to be effective.   The real requirement is for
each foot to hit a mat twice.
-- 
Charles (Joe) Stahelin
Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK

---

From: "Keith R. Williams" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:31:41 -0500

Since the topic of wood floors has been brought up an I'm in the
process
  of planning an upgrade to half of our first floor, I have some
questions.

  My plans are to install ceramic tile to the central hallway (no it's
not
  a mansion, only a cape), downstairs bathroom, and laundry.  The
hallway
  is about 18ft long, between the garage, bathroom, laundry, and guest
  room.  I guess with a runner, I pass the two step rule here. I want
  ceramic here for the ease of cleaning and durability.  We live in 
  Vermont, so there is no shortage of sand, salt, and mud that enters
the
  house.
  
  I'm a DYIer in long standing, so I'm not too afraid of such projects.  
  My question now becomes what to do about the kitchen/dining room area
  at the end of this.  I was thinking of tile, but this would be too 
  sterile.  I want bright (capes are very dark inside) to make it look
  larger.  My thinking is now coming around to wood.  Again, I want
  something light.  We got a sample of a natural maple, but it was too 
  featureless (our kitchen cabnets are the the dark stained cherry).
  I'm leaning t'wards natural red oak.  Bruce makes a pre-finished
product
  that's tempting.  

  This is only in the planning stage (in fact it is likely that the wood
  won't get done this year) so all comments are welcome.  Thanks.
----
  Keith R. Williams
  [email-masked]

---

From: jason Steward <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:47:56 +0000

Lou was wondering about what finish to use on a hardwood floor, and 
seemed to be leaning towards wax.

Lou:

I do hand rubbed finishes on floors.  I use a mixture of natural 
Polymer(boiled linseed, or tung oil), polyurethane varnish (paint 
thinner based, not water based), and mineral spirits.  I substitute 
the mineral spirits with partially or all stain (thinner not water 
based) if added color is desired.  The exact mixture of these is 
dependant on the floor itself.  Drier wood with spaces between boards 
require more thinner and oil to penetrate the wood, and close up the 
gaps as well as remoisturize the wood.  I really like the first few 
applications to penetrate deeply to condition the wood.  This also has 
the added benefit of making the wood unpalitable to insects 
(especially termites).  The first few coats (3-4) need to be done with 
less time between coats because you don't want the wood to seal before 
you apply the next coat.  The oil takes longer to cure, so I coat it 
twice a day by applying to the floor with a very wet rag, then taking 
a drier one and continue to rub the floor until it is completely dry 
to the touch with this same rag.  That may require rubbing the floor 
3-4 times.  My later applications have a higher share of the poly, and 
less oil and thinner.  The applications are the same, but 16-24 hours 
between coats are required, but no longer than 24.  When I have 
achieved the desired build up of finish, the floor is left to cure for 
2-3 days.  Top dressing with wax can be done but is not required.  

The advantages of such a floor is that in a few years time when it 
gets scuffed up, you only have to wet sand it lightly with 400 grit 
and mineral spirits, rinse (clean off sanding residue), and reapply 
some of the mixture above to completely restore the finish.  This 
finish is not a plastic coating like floating poly, so it does not 
delaminate.  It chemically alters the composition of the wood making 
it stronger and more dent resistant.  It can be easily repaired, and 
never needs to be stripped again.

for more info e-mail me

jhs

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From: [email-masked] (Roger B Grinde)
Date: 31 Mar 1997 18:06:12 GMT

In our shopping around for wood floors, we read about the Bruce solid,
pre-finished products.  They have two finishes:  a urethane-based
finished, and a wax-based finished (forgot the trade names).  They
recommend the urethane-based finish for most residential applications
(*especially* kitchens), and the wax-based finished for extremely
high-traffic areas (e.g., commercial).  They specifically recommend
*against* putting the wax-based finish in places like kitchens, due to
moisture issues. 

-- 
Roger B. Grinde, Ph.D.                                [email-masked]
Decision Sciences Dept./WSBE/McConnell Hall   http://pubpages.unh.edu/~rbg 
The University of New Hampshire                               603-862-3368
Durham, NH  03824                                        fax: 603-862-4468

---

From: [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 17:47:24 GMT

[email-masked] writes
> Standing water on a plain oil finish is real bad news.

Depends on the "plain oil finish." I've had standing water on pure tung oil 
and polymerized tung oil finishes without ANY damage.

> and nauseous. 

Actually, pure tung oil smells very nice. Polymerized tung oil usually
smells like the thinner, which in the case of at least one "low-toxic"
brand is a citrus based thinner that smeels pretty good - I've not noticed
any side effects from using it in an unventilated area.

- Bennett Leeds
[email-masked]

Just say But Rich is right about PU's durability.

Opinions are mine alone.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 17:56:32 GMT

"eugene kulinek" <[email-masked]> writes
>...

You're confusing things. You start by talking about scratch resistance,
and end up talking about wear resistance.

Scratch resistance is NOT dependent on the base material. PU on pine will
not scratch more easily than PU on oak. The wear-resistance property of
PU you then mention is harder to characterize. Depending on how the PU
has weared, it could be related to pine's softness (if the finish wasn't
flexible enough and lost its bond to the wood), but it could also be
completely independent of the wood and totall dependent on the quality
of the PU you applied, it's own abrasion resistance, and the type of 
wear your stairs have received.

- Bennett Leeds
[email-masked]

Just say There's more than hardness at issue here.

Opinions are mine alone.

---

From: [email-masked] (Robert Klein)
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 19:28:37 GMT

Sure.  I sent it to you by email.

=================================================

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:27:31 GMT, "eugene kulinek"
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>Can you tell me the title of this book.  

Regards,

Robert Klein
Robert's Antiques and Restoration
Pensacola, FL  32505  USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
If you can't find time to do it right the first time,
how are you going to find time to do it over?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:54:30 UNDEFINED

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (Bennett Leeds)
>Date: 1 Apr 1997 17:47:24 GMT

>and polymerized tung oil finishes without ANY damage.

I'm really interested in this, Bennett.  What polymerized tung oil finishes do 
you recommend, and how long did the water sit on them?  For my purposes, a 
puddle SHOULD be able to sit there long enough to evaporate on its own without 
any damage to the finish - if not, one needs to constantly police the 
horizontal surfaces.

Another issue is moisture in the air.  I just installed a bunch of 
oil-finished trim in my bathroom, and I'm a bit nervous about the long-term 
hold-up-ability.  Time will tell.

>Actually, pure tung oil smells very nice.

Bennett, how long does pure tung oil take to dry?  When I've read catalogs 
selling the stuff, they say things like 'pure tung oil is usually not used by 
itself'.

 Polymerized tung oil usually
>any side effects from using it in an unventilated area.

Do you consider polymerized tung oil varnish more durable or easier to use 
than pure?

Inquiring minds want to know!

>Just say But Rich is right about PU's durability.

Garsh!

Rich
Just say I really DO want to know, B!