Subject: Re: Stolen electricity isn't free

From: [email-masked] (Andy Blucher)
Date: 1 Aug 1996 03:51:50 GMT

Donald Kulha ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Dlehmicke ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : Maybe no one cares but me, but I can think of no faster way to discredit
: : this important Usegroup, and maybe more importantly, damage the
: : "homepower" movement than to have a bunch of (your insult here) post
: : methods and ideas for breaking the law.  
: : 
: : Perhaps you hardy frontiersman and tough individualists can start your own
: : newgroup and call it "alt.fringe" or "alt.we're.nobody's.fool" or
: : something complimentary like that.
: : 
: : I will consider, and I hope the administrators of this Newsgroup consider,
: : further postings on this thread to be attempts by vested, established
: : business, energy, and political interests to subvert a concept they fear
: : to the bottom of their $300 shoes.

:     Indeed the person who started this group is unhappy about the crud
: that's getting posted on this thread. I've posted numerous notes to these
: folks to stop including the charter of the group. Fortunatly or
: unfortunatly (choose one) we live in a free society and this being an open
: discussion It's almost impossible to control the content. I'm hoping that
: folks will see our example and avoid sleezing out the discussion.
:     Other than that, well, we're kinda stuck with 'em. Sigh. 

: Don Kulha, Founder

Or start a moderated newsgroup.  Means someone has to take on a position
of some responsibility and requiring quite an investment of time and 
effort.  I wonder if it's possible to "automoderate" a group?

Andy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Blucher,                     | Email: [email-masked]
Department of Software Development, | Phone: +61 3 9903 2187
Monash University, PO Box 197,      |   Fax: +61 3 9903 1077
Caulfield East, Victoria 3145,      |
AUSTRALIA                           |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Joe Lowe)
Date: 1 Aug 1996 15:58:34 GMT

James di Paulo ([email-masked]) wrote:  : In
<[email-masked]> Q Myers <[email-masked]> writes: : > :
>Are there any other off griders out there reading this news group :
>besides myself? 

I have just finished my first month off the grid. I use solar elect. from
a set of surplus Carrizo panels (200 watts). All lighting is 120VAC
compact flourecent. I am able to use a 286 floppy disk based computer to
access the net.  

Propane powers the new Servel refer, Paloma water heater, and cooking
stove. 

An old one cylinder Onan diesel generator is used to bring water to the
surface from a deep well, where it is pumped into the house with solar. I
also use it for high load stuff like vacuum cleaner ect...

We use a Maytag from the 1930's that I converted to gasoline to wash
clothes. 

I use more fossil fuel than I would like, but the solar alternatives are
very expensive and will be added slowly as I am able.

We would like to contact others off the grid or interested in geting off.
We live near Huntsville, Alabama.

---

From: [email-masked] (Alan Crabtree)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 23:16:26 -0700

> >Are there any other off griders out there reading this news group :

I just installed a PV system on my property north of Seattle as I get
ready to build a house. It will be nice to have clean, quiet power to
build with. I also have a hydro that will get installed after the house
goes up and when the creek has more water.

System is 24 BP275 75-watt panels, a Trace 3624, an Exeltech 500W for
sinewave, 16 L-16 batteries wired as 24V and a few other goodies like a
Batterylite and an E-Meter.

I figure all this will cost me less than $20,000 when all is done, less
than the $22-25,000 to be on the grid.

I would love to see a continuing discussion of new ideas, problem solving
and general support here (and especially NOT how to steal electricity).
Anyone else out there?

-- 
Alan Crabtree  ([email-masked])
Visit The Gorby Files
Newton, Snohomish County (WA), renewable energy and Gorby!
http://www.halcyon.com/alancrab/gorby.files.html

---

From: [email-masked] (Joe Lowe)
Date: 1 Aug 1996 15:58:34 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Thomas E. Seal)
Date: 1 Aug 1996 17:28:07 GMT

I live in a totally solar powered house in the mountains outside of
Ashland, Oregon.  I'm planning on adding a small hydro (little Otto
sp?) to the system since we have abundant water resources.  I am
interested in 12V refrigeration since I'm toting propane tanks back and
forth every few weeks to run my refrigerator(s), cooking, and instant
on hot water.

Tom Seal
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Norman Goetz)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 21:52:02 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>forth every few weeks to run my refrigerator(s), cooking, and instant

Be aware that the absorption-type refrigerators which are "multi-fuel"
and run on propane or electricity (12VDC, 110VAC, or either) just have
an electric heating coil to do the work in place of the propane.  This
can be a big electric load.  With hydro you still may be OK, but check
it out.  A comparable sized 12V unit with a compressor will use less
amps, but then you have no alternative in case of electrical down time.
Depends partly on what size refrigerator you want.  Real Goods sells
full-sized 12V compressor models.  I'd invest in an ample-sized hydro
installation regardless.
--
Norman Goetz		Network Technician		Reed College
audio: (503) 771-1112 X 7646	superhighway: [email-masked]
This has been a test life.  This was only a test.  If this had been an actual
life you would have been given instructions on where to go and what to do.

---

From: Q Myers <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:24:25 -0700

Brian Duke wrote:
> 
> That's a great idea for a refrigerater you came up with.  I was
> wondering how many amps a Sanyo refrigerator would draw running off an
> inverter.  I realize the inverter takes power as well, so if you
> hooked the inverter to the refrigerator's thermostat, then it would
> only be on when the compressor was on.
> 
> That do you think?
> 
> - Brian.

You can of course run a small Sanyo refer with an inverter, and with
added insulation, achieve very good efficiency. Actually a good, cheap
way to go. The small 1.7 CF Sanyo refer can be powered with an
inexpensive Statpower 250 watt inverter. Before I changed the compressor
to the Danfoss unit, I tested the unit with inverter power, and if I
remember right, it drew about 80 watts as opposed to 48 watts with the
Danfoss unit.

A standard refrigerator thermostat is actually a mechanical device and
requires no electrical power to operate.

Many of you have requested more information on building a similar refer.
I plan to post all the info including JPEG photos before the end of
August.
-- 
Q Myers
http://www.teleport.com/~qmyers
Solar Powered in Central Oregon

---

From: [email-masked] (Brian Duke)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:11:52 GMT

Thanks for the test info.  It sounds like the Danfoss compressor is
very efficient.

- Brian

---

From: [email-masked] (Donald Kulha)
Date: 14 Aug 1996 00:38:03 GMT

Q Myers ([email-masked]) wrote:

: You can of course run a small Sanyo refer with an inverter, and with
: added insulation, achieve very good efficiency. Actually a good, cheap
: way to go. The small 1.7 CF Sanyo refer can be powered with an
: inexpensive Statpower 250 watt inverter. Before I changed the compressor
: to the Danfoss unit, I tested the unit with inverter power, and if I
: remember right, it drew about 80 watts as opposed to 48 watts with the
: Danfoss unit.
: 
: Many of you have requested more information on building a similar refer.
: I plan to post all the info including JPEG photos before the end of
: August.

     Last night I was .PDF-ing Home Power Issue #32 and while trying to
resolve some font-dementia was reading the letter to them describing this
refer you built. That was late '92 as I recall, nearly 4 years ago. Guess
it's still working great eh? Do you know if the price of the Danfoss
compressor you used is still in the ballpark of what you paid before
and/or still available? I ask because I need a refer for my van (pg.16, HP
#54) and your approach sounds better than anything I've run across to
date. Thanks in advance.....DCK

P.S.-I think you ought to consider taking some photos, making a sketch or
two and writing an article for HP. If your refer has stood the test of
time this would be a great service to many of the readers. Not all of us
can afford sunfrosts and *most* of us prefer our beer cold!

---

From: Q Myers <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:31:03 -0700

> can afford sunfrosts and *most* of us prefer our beer cold!

Yes, I think it was about August 92 when I put the refer together. Still
working fine.

Don't know for sure about the price of the Danfoss compressor and
controller in 96 but would imagine it's not too much more. Seems like
most companies add a few bucks when they put in oil for C134a.

I've been working on an article to post to this news group whenever I
have a spare minute. Was trying to make it descriptive enough so my 8
year old daughter could build one, but decided that is impossible. Now
writing it with the semiskilled tinkerer in mind. I am really a lousy
writer.

Still plan on having an article ready before the end of the month. Took
some photos the other day and will post them separately, as JPEGs in a
few minutes so you can get an idea what it looks like. If there is
anything in particular you want a closer look at, just let me know.

If HP wants to publish any of this, they are welcome to take and use
what ever they want, but I really don't want to take the time, nor do I
have the skill to write a first class article for publication.

PS: Your van looks great.

---

From: [email-masked] (Raul Almquist)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 15:27:52 GMT

Q Myers ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Are there any other off griders out there reading this news group
: besides myself? Lets have a show of hands!!!

  My property is on Solar (with some propane for cooking and the like), 
but due to the problems with a long driveway which crosses a protected 
waterway, I do not live on it fulltime.

---

From: [email-masked] (Norman Goetz)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 22:05:55 GMT

>: besides myself? Lets have a show of hands!!!

Have a summer home on Mt. Hood in Oregon, in an unlikely location for
solar, in an old growth forest. A river south of the cabin provides an
opening for sunlight for about 6 hours/day. Two self-regulating panels,
no charge controller, one battery, no inverter. Heat, cooking, and hot
water from wood. The electricity runs a portable piezo-electric cooler,
flourescent and halogen lights, stereo, and cell phone. Kerosene lights
for backup. Since we don't live there we can run the battery down on
weekends and it will recharge during the week. The grid is available
but the cabin was built before it arrived and we "coasted through" the
time before solar without hooking up.
--
Norman Goetz		Network Technician		Reed College
audio: (503) 771-1112 X 7646	superhighway: [email-masked]
This has been a test life.  This was only a test.  If this had been an actual
life you would have been given instructions on where to go and what to do.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Shepherd)
Date: 6 Aug 1996 19:28:41 GMT

>: besides myself? Lets have a show of hands!!!

My wife and I currently live in a 1 bedroom condo (apartment) during the
week, and spend weekends etc. "up north" in what will hopefully become our
"real" home.  Friday eves we typically go north.  Monday morning we go back
to work.  We hope to eventually transition to tele-commuting for most of our
work week.  What I'm describing is our "up north" home.

Although we've got grid power available about 200 ft away, we chose to go
completely solar.  It may not quite be cost effective, but it's a nice
hobby, and a lot of fun being energy independent.  

One high point was when our neighbor came over complaining after the third
time his power had gone out, causing him to lose all of his refrigerated
food.  It seems that lightning had taken out his power twice, and a fried
squirrel in a transformer took it out the third time.  Anyway, the neighbor
came over to see if our power was also out.  When he looked up at our
panels, we both got a chuckle.  

We started out small about 5 years ago, with a couple of marine batteries,
a $79.00 inverter, and a set of Arco Quad Lams, running only lights and a
radio.  We've been slowly adding to the system ever since.

Our current system consists of a Trace 4024 inverter, a Heliotrope CC-60
charge controller, 8 220ah golf cart batteries, two marine batteries (for hot
standby and fishing), 12 Arco M-52's (three sets of quad lams), a cruising
systems E-Meter, and a Homelite 4400 watt generator (which we almost never
need to run).  I also added hydro-caps to the golf cart batteries to keep
them from gassing and losing water.  Most everything else is home-made.

In the cooler Minnesota climate, we were able to wire the quad-lams in sets
of three rather than four, giving us about 11 amps @ 26 volts when the sun
is shining and the temp isn't too hot.  During the week, the system only
powers a Sunfrost RF-12 (120v ac) fridge.  All excess power charges up the
battery bank for the next weekend.

For inside light we are using 20 watt fluorescent lights (cheapos, not
compacts).  They work well, and do not hum like I've heard some will.
Outside, we use 35 watt sodium floodlights and a halogen spot light.  Our
floodlights are all on wind-up timers so that we don't forget to turn them
off.  We have an efficient Surflow pump for water, and a small microwave.
Everything runs off of 120 volt inverter power.  We have a propane stove and
a woodstove for heat.  

One nice feature of the Trace 4024 inverter is that it has three
programmable 5 amp relays.  I configured our inverter so that at 28.0 volts,
just before the charge controller begins tapering, the marine batteries get
connected up to the main bank.  This keeps the older marine batteries from
bringing down the rest of the bank, but keeps them topped off when sunshine
permits.

In the near future, I hope to add a windmill, probably a Whisper 600.  We've
got a nice location where the wind is almost always blowing.  I may also add
a couple more panels.

So far the system has worked well.  The only problem that I've had is that I
noticed a couple of the junction boxes pulling away from the panels.  (No
loss of power.)  This was my own fault.  I had decided to use flexible
conduit to run my power from the panels.  Unfortunately some of the junction
boxes could not take the strain of the sharp bend in the conduit.  A couple
of cable ties and some silicon sealant solved this problem.  Otherwise, no
problems.  

If I don't go too heavy using power tools and my wife takes it easy on the
microwave, the batteries can handle about a 2 week stay without sunshine.
Most of the time the batteries don't go below about 75 percent full.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably do the same thing (and probably
make the same mistakes).

Bob Shepherd

--- FOR SALE:  ---

Since I am at my keyboard, I'd like to put in a plug for some of my old
equipment.  It is in good condition and would be good for someone just
getting into alternative energy.  Since I've upgraded my system, I have no
use for it other than as emergency backup.

Trace DR-1500 inverter (modified wave):  12 volt, 1500 watts continuous,
3500 watts surge.  Includes 70 amp battery charger, and Temp compensation
probe.  (About 2 years old, good condition.)  
Price:  $600.00 (or 25 percent off the best new price you can find.  Let me
know where to find the price.)

ASC 12 volt, 16 amp charge controller.  With temp compensation probe. (about
4 years old)
Price:  $50.00 (or 25 percent off the best new price you can find)

Thanks,  
Bob Shepherd -- [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Raul Almquist)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 15:25:05 GMT

John L. Freiler ([email-masked]) wrote:
: This is not intended as a flame, but if you replaced the whinning about
: off topic posts with content, this NG would be much more infomative.

  Alt.Energy.Homepower is for the discussion of ALTERNATIVE forms of 
GENERATING and USING energy (NOT STEALING IT (which is extremely lame in 
the 1st and last place)), as in that which relates to the HOME POWER 
MAGAZINE!!!  IE the NAME OF THE GROUP!!!

  Idiots, asses and no-brainers who assume that a groupname containing 
homepower is a place for discussing how to STEAL can just go elsewhere.  
Not to mention that most people who try stealing power more often than 
not end up 6 feet under as they find out what it is like to be the short 
between power and the ground (and lacking a cartoons ability to just get 
back up again).

---

From: [email-masked](James di Paulo )
Date: 1 Aug 1996 13:42:27 GMT

In <[email-masked]> Q Myers <[email-masked]> writes: 
>
>Are there any other off griders out there reading this news group
>besides myself? Lets have a show of hands!!!
>
Hand up! Not off grid yet, still in the city, but should be by spring.
<smile>

>Solar energy works for me, provides all the electrical power I need.
>If you use solar, wind, hydro power, etc... please let me and all the
>other readers know you are there.
>
>Anyone interested in such things as building a super efficient 12 VDC
>refrigerator, peddle powered battery charger, 12VDC ceiling fan, or
>other off the grid devices, let me know and I will be glad to post the
>info including jpgs on how to do it.

That would be welcome information indeed! Our house/farmstead is being
designed around solar and wind power, super insulation, greenhouses,
etc. We have been talking about dual wiring in the house to take
advantage of the possibly lower power consumption of such things as
ceiling fans, the computers, and so on. While we are far from beginning
to dig footings or drive nails, everything has to begin somewhere.

Any ideas are appreciated.

James