Subject: Fiberglass Replacement

From: Ken Loomis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:14:30 -0700

After reviewing this newgroup for sometime, I think I may have a product 
to offer that fits the needs of the group's members.

It is called Radiant Barrier and is an insulating material that was 
developed by NASA for use in the space program.  It is paper thin, 
clean, and as effective as traditional mass insulation rated at R-34.

We have used this product in a variety of applications to reduce energy 
consumption in residential, commercial, and industrial applications.  I 
first became interested in this product when I lined an ice chest with 
Radiant Barrier and doubled the time until the ice melted. 

If you desire further information, please visit our web site at:

     http://U-B-Kool.com/

I have long thought that Radiant Barrier could play a significant role 
in improving the effectiveness of alternative energy systems and would 
appreciate any comments or questions this group's members have.

Thanks,
Ken Loomis

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From: [email-masked](James di Paulo )
Date: 16 Aug 1996 12:43:50 GMT

In <[email-masked]> Ken Loomis <[email-masked]> writes:

>After reviewing this newgroup for sometime, I think I may have a
>product to offer that fits the needs of the group's members.
>
I will check out your web site. Are you saying that a layer of this
material in a wall will be the same as R-34 insulation? 

James

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From: [email-masked] (Mike Barney)
Date: 16 Aug 1996 17:03:02 -0700

> material in a wall will be the same as R-34 insulation? 

It appears the apples are mixing with the oranges...
Radiant Barriers help to primairly reduce *radiant* energy, and are quite
effective in high radiant environments, like hot deserts.  Conducted and
Convective heat deltas' still require more conventional insulation, like
"that pink stuff".

Regards,

[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked](James di Paulo )
Date: 17 Aug 1996 13:58:00 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Mike
Barney) writes: 

>Radiant Barriers help to primairly reduce *radiant* energy, and are
>quite effective in high radiant environments, like hot deserts. 
>Conducted and Convective heat deltas' still require more conventional
>insulation, like "that pink stuff".

Not only pink, but itchy too. <smile> Is it possible to use something
like this radient barrier along with insulation to keep the heat in a
house? I remember seeing alunimum foil (I think) used in the attics of
houses in Tucson to reflect the solar heat, hopefully helping to keep
the house cooler. Can this kind of material be helpful in other areas
also? 

It seems to me that if one can keep the heat in a house, the cost of
heating could be substantially reduced.

James

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From: [email-masked] (Dave Wood)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 23:22:24 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
   [email-masked](James di Paulo ) wrote:
-snip-
>heating could be substantially reduced.

Some conventional fiberglass insulation batting already has 
an aluminized backing.

-Dave

---

From: Ken Loomis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:55:40 -0700

Dave Wood wrote:
- snip - 
> Some conventional fiberglass insulation batting already has

A significant part of the comfort experienced in any climate is the 
result of the radiant transfer of heat.

In colder climates it is the radiant heat that your body is losing to 
cold walls and ceilings.  By insualting with Radiant Barrier, the loss 
of body heat is slowed because 97% of the radiant energy that strikes 
the surface of the Radiant Barrier is reflected back.  The furniture, 
interior walls, and YOU hold the heat in the building.  Remember, 
everything above absolute zero is always radiating heat energy.

This principle also applies in warmer, sunny weather and is most easily 
demonstarted when one walks under a shade tree on a hot day.  The 
ambient temperature is not significatly lower under that shade tree, but 
the reduced absorption of radiant energy results in a higher comfort 
level.

In regards to the aluminum used on traditional mass insulation (yes, 
that itchy stuff), it is not a radiant barrier (just a single layer) and 
does not provide the thermal protection of Radiant Barrier.  In 
addition, it still incorporates the itchy stuff, which, as the warning 
label on that material clearly states, is not a very healthy product.

One other note, with as little as 1 1/2% moisture content, those 
traditional mass insulation materials lose as much as 34% of their 
effectiveness.  Radiant Barrier works underwater and does not suffer 
>from  compaction problems.

Ken Loomis

---

From: Ken Loomis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 07:41:48 -0700

Mike Barney wrote:
- snip -
> Convective heat deltas' still require more conventional insulation, like

Actually, that is a misunderstanding that has been perpetuated by a 
number of companies with an interest in tradiational mass insulation 
products.  The concept of Radiant Barrier is based upon the theories of 
a 19th century physicist by the name of Dewar.  Thus the Dewar flask.

Radiant Barrier works just like the Dewar flask that we all would 
recognize as a "Thermos" bottle.  A glass bottle with a layer of silver 
on both sides.  These bottles don't know whether the contents were hot 
or cold, they just keep the heat from escaping from hot coffee, or 
entering cold milk.

NASA found that the fragile glass layer could be replaced with a modern 
plastic, thus making mordern Radiant Barriers more durable and flexible.

Ken Loomis

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From: "Sam Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: 21 Aug 1996 03:24:25 GMT

Ken Loomis <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
> > Radiant Barriers help to primairly reduce *radiant* energy, and are
quite
> plastic, thus making mordern Radiant Barriers more durable and flexible.

A Dewar Flask or a "Thermos" bottle has a lot more than that. There are two
bottles with a vacuum in between. The bottles only touch at the neck and a
support at the base. It is the vacuum that provides the insulation. NASA 's
Radiant Barriers work just fine in space or on the Moon, but they sure
don't use them in an atmosphere.

---

From: Ken Loomis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:55:22 -0700

Sam Hall wrote:
- snip -
> don't use them in an atmosphere.

That's an interesting comment, and would seem to imply that Radiant 
Barriers do not work on earth.  If that were the case, I would suspect 
that NASA would not feature 'earthbound' uses of Radiant Barrier in 
their annual "Spinoff" magazine, which they have.  I would also suspect 
that would not award achievement awards to people who are promoting and 
educating the public about Radiant Barrier, which they have.  And, I 
also suspect that the engineering departments of large corporations like 
GM, Ford, and IBM, wouldn't be recommending the installation of Radiant 
Barrier for energy savings.

The effectiveness of retro-fitting Radiant Barrier into a commercial 
building is fairly easy to document.  With rising energy costs, 
commercial building owners are open to anything that can lower their 
utility bills by as little as 5%.  When their energy usage has been 
tracked for several years and they suddenly realize a reduction of 
10-15% the month after installing Radiant Barrier, they tend to believe 
it was the Radiant barrier that caused it.  It may be completely 
illusional, but this type of savings continues month after month and has 
been repeated and duplicated over and over.

Ken Loomis

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From: [email-masked] (JSprawls)
Date: 22 Aug 1996 04:40:33 -0400

Along these lines, anyone here familiar with the bubble wrap type
insulation I've seen around lately? Looks like the bubble stuff you use
for packing, but has a silver reflective sheet on each side.

Anyone know it or have any comments?

JR

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From: Albrecht Kadlec <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 Aug 1996 15:48:47 +0200

Ken Loomis <[email-masked]> writes:
> Barriers do not work on earth. 

well in space there's almost vacuum, so conduction & convection are
out of the equation.

At high temperature differences, radiation is the strongest term.
At low temperature differences, convection & conduction are stronger.

That's why I would paint my weekend orbital station with the NASA
paint (I don't like night time temps of -100 C much). delta T > 100 C

I sure would use rockwool/cellulose first for my hut in the Alps with
night time temps of -5 ( -> delta T < 30 C) and high windspeeds.

The Radiant Barrier does work on earth, but Radiation is probably much
less than 10% of heat losses.

	air leakage > convection > conduction > radiation 

is the ordering here on earth

> If that were the case, I would suspect 

> been repeated and duplicated over and over.

well, I won't comment on the tone of these two paragraphs.

I can imagine the homeowner looking at his elec. bill for year.
Then her decides to do sth. And this is usiually the point, where 100
parameters around the house are changed, the behaviour of the people
is changed, .... and the NASA paint is used.
And it's of course the Hi Tech Stuff from Good Old NASA, that save the
poor homeowner, since everybody knows, that nothing comes from
conservation/isolation/keeping windows shut and so on.

Well any way. as long as he's saved some 5%, he's welcome.
But I wouldn't count on any measurable effect, if I just painted my
house with that NASA paint.

well the tone around here is highly infective.
sorry,
albrecht

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From: "Sam Hall" <[email-masked]>
Date: 25 Aug 1996 00:09:52 GMT

Ken Loomis <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
> been repeated and duplicated over and over.
Please read what I said.
 1) I was correcting your error on how a Dewar Flask works.

 2) You did not mention a single use that NASA has for the
product on Earth. That was my comment.

 3) You did not mention any tests comparing a building with only Radiant
Barrier and one with the "pink stuff." That's what you were proposing.

by the way, I have no business involvement in any of these products, how 
about you?

---

From: Albrecht Kadlec <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Aug 1996 01:06:28 +0200

> > Some conventional fiberglass insulation batting already has

But that aluminium is used as vapor and wind barrier.
There is also paper-backed fiberglass to shield against wind only, if
water vapor is no problem (or desired to be vented).

> everything above absolute zero is always radiating heat energy.

But then you'd have to use the radiant barrier on the inside of the
walls.

You'd lose all thermal mass of the outside walls, probably creating
big temperature swings, which are considered uncomfortable, too.

For radiant heating, the inside of the outer walls of your house
should ideally have higher temp as the air in the room, for you to
feel comfortable. The idea is that all walls radiate on you and keep
you equally warm on all sides, so you can lower the air temperature,
which minimizes conduction/convection losses.

Also I still doubt the radiant barrier is also a conduction barrier.
If the radiant barrier is on the inner side of the walls, the wall
surface doesn't gain much heat from the room through radiation, but
still through conduction. 

So if it's cold outside, the room looses heat to the outside through
conduction & convection. 
This should still be blocked using mass insulation.

Unless of course you want the room air temp to follow outside air temp
and use a radiant only heat to keep you comfy. ;^)

albrecht

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From: [email-masked] (Andy Blucher)
Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:24:47 GMT

Ken Loomis ([email-masked]) wrote:

[lots snipped]

: This principle also applies in warmer, sunny weather and is most easily 
: demonstarted when one walks under a shade tree on a hot day.  The 
: ambient temperature is not significatly lower under that shade tree, but 
: the reduced absorption of radiant energy results in a higher comfort 
: level.

[more snipped]

: Ken Loomis

The air is cooler under a tree due to evaporative cooling; so there are
two effects: less direct radiation and cooler air.  This is easily 
observed by getting under a tree where the sun is on you.  It is cooler
than being away from the tree.  Check it out with a thermometer!

Andy.
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Department of Software Development, | Phone: +61 3 9903 2187
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