Subject: Propane vs. Natural Gas

From: [email-masked] (George Katele)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 22:26:00 -0600

I recently purchased a home in Wisconsin that has a 1000 gal propane tank
on the property. The home is primarily a weekend/vacation house, though it
is usable year-round. I have been told that the local natural gas company
has an offer to pipe natural gas to the house for a nominal fee, and
change all the burner nozzles to natural gas. 

Does anyone have an idea of the relative costs of propane vs. natural gas
and the advantages/disadvantages of either system? 

Since I don't visit here too often, I'd appreciate the favor of an e-mail reply.

Thanks in advance,

George

-- 
-----------------
"Does pasta explode if it comes into contact with anti-pasta?"
                --Allen Sherzer
-----------------

George Katele
[email-masked]

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From: "John Galbreath Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:23:06 -0600

> Since I don't visit here too often, I'd appreciate the favor of an e-mail reply.

Here locally Natural Gas is half that of propane.  You never have to 
worry about it running out.  However, their "nominal" fee depending on 
how much it is and how much you use the gas.  It may not pay to change.
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From: [email-masked] (Allen Parks)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:00:05 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (George Katele) wrote:

(snip)

>Since I don't visit here too often, I'd appreciate the favor of an e-mail
reply.

George...

It's always been my experience that natural gas is considerably cheaper
than propane. NG is piped in; propane has to be trucked in and delivered
into your tank. Check with your neighbors and/or the gas company for a
comparison, why don't you?

About the relative advantages, I'd say the two are pretty comparable. I
don't think you would notice any difference. I've used both, and have
always been happy with either of them. NG is much more convenient, since
you don't have to worry about running out... ;-)

-- 
=============================================
"Don't pinch your course. Sail full and bye!"
<<Allen [Graybyrd] - Boise & Whidbey Island>>

---

From: "Duane C. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 20:16:38 -0800

> Since I don't visit here too often, I'd appreciate the favor of an e-mail reply.

This is a no brainer. The cost of natural gas is half that of
propane here also, (approxamatly).

The initial cost of conversion and instalation is peanuts
compared the continued future savings.

-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever
Ignorance can be Fixed

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Cartmel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:04:07 GMT

The specs I've seen for ovens, etc. show that propane doesn't generate
as much BTU as natural gas.

>[email-masked]

---------------------
Tom Cartmel, N9WOX
[email-masked]
http://www.cris.com
---------------------

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From: Mark Sprague <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:46:28 -0800

> Since I don't visit here too often, I'd appreciate the favor of an e-mail reply.

I'm not sure how cold it gets there, or how your tank is protected. But 
you might want to consider that propane tanks tend to lose pressure at 
subzero temperatures. If your water heater is propane, and you are 
leaving the house closed up without draining the water system, you might 
want to think about this.

Also, what happens in the above scenario if your propane tanks simply 
runs out of propane?

I don't know either your plans or your specific conditions, so I've had 
to dance around this a bit, but I think that you get the idea.

Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (John D. Muccigrosso)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 01:40:58 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Allen Parks) wrote:

| 
| Propane in tanks works just fine in Stanley, Idaho,  at 40 below zero, and
| worse. How much colder should it get before one really <worries>? <g>

Actually, not much colder. I got this from Monique Gordon's wob site at
<http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Owlink/Lessons/Hydro/monalkynes.html>

number  hydrocarbon    boiling       melting
of                      point         point
carbons                     C           C
1       methane          -164.0        -182.5
2       ethane            -88.6        -183.3
3       propane           -42.1        -189.7
4       isobutane         -11.7        -159.4
4       butane             -0.5        -138.3
5       neopentane         19.5        - 16.5
5       isopentane         27.85       -159.9
5       pentane            36.1        -129.7
6       hexane             68.9        - 95.0
7       heptane            98.4        - 90.6
8       octane            125.7        - 56.8
9       nonane            150.8        - 51.0
10      decane            174.1        - 29.7

As you can see, propane boils (or condenses from the gas phase) at just
around -40 F (-43.8 F, actually), so that if it got much colder Allen
would be in trouble as the propane in the lines would liquify. Vapor
pressure is also an issue here of course, but my CRC handbook is buried in
a closet, so I can't say offhand.

See this industry page for more info:

<http://www.propanegas.com/framed/concorn/c%26i/c%26iguide/intro.html>

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
[email-masked]                            University of Michigan

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From: [email-masked] (Allen Parks)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:35:28 -0800

>to dance around this a bit, but I think that you get the idea.

Propane in tanks works just fine in Stanley, Idaho,  at 40 below zero, and
worse. How much colder should it get before one really <worries>? <g>

Allen

P.S. Folks who let their propane tanks run empty in sub-zero weather are
also not to be trusted to drive to town .. they may run out of gas and
freeze to death.

---

From: [email-masked] (Allen Parks)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:30:50 -0800

><http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Owlink/Lessons/Hydro/monalkynes.html>

<snip long table>

><http://www.propanegas.com/framed/concorn/c%26i/c%26iguide/intro.html>

I won't argue with your science, as I'm accept for purposes of this
discussion that the figures are correct.

HOWEVER, for all _practical_ purposes, folks in the sub-zero climates of
central Idaho get along just fine with propane heat. Also, most have
woodstove backup just in case (most of them left over from earlier times)

It's a lot like the case of the bumblebee, which hasn't read that
aeronautical engineers can prove he cannot fly... folks in Stanley enjoy
the cozy comfort from their convenient gas heaters.. 

Theory needs to be tempered with a touch of empirical experience.

---

From: [email-masked] (John D. Muccigrosso)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 23:56:32 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Allen Parks) wrote:

| In article <[email-masked]>,
| [email-masked] (John D. Muccigrosso) wrote:
| 
| >In article <[email-masked]>,
| >[email-masked] (Allen Parks) wrote:
| >
| >| 
| >| Propane in tanks works just fine in Stanley, Idaho,  at 40 below zero, and
| >| worse. How much colder should it get before one really <worries>? <g>
| >
| >Actually, not much colder. I got this from Monique Gordon's wob site at
| ><http://riceinfo.rice.edu/armadillo/Owlink/Lessons/Hydro/monalkynes.html>
| 
| <snip long table>
| 
| >As you can see, propane boils (or condenses from the gas phase) at just
| >around -40 F (-43.8 F, actually), so that if it got much colder Allen
| >would be in trouble as the propane in the lines would liquify. Vapor
| >pressure is also an issue here of course, but my CRC handbook is buried in
| >a closet, so I can't say offhand.
| >
| >See this industry page for more info:
| >
| ><http://www.propanegas.com/framed/concorn/c%26i/c%26iguide/intro.html>

<snip>
 
| I won't argue with your science, as I'm accept for purposes of this
| discussion that the figures are correct.
| 
| HOWEVER, for all _practical_ purposes, folks in the sub-zero climates of
| central Idaho get along just fine with propane heat. Also, most have
| woodstove backup just in case (most of them left over from earlier times)
| 
| It's a lot like the case of the bumblebee, which hasn't read that
| aeronautical engineers can prove he cannot fly... folks in Stanley enjoy
| the cozy comfort from their convenient gas heaters.. 
| 
| Theory needs to be tempered with a touch of empirical experience.

Allen, try reading more closely before getting out that soapbox. Where do
I say that your propane tanks don't work? You asked how much colder, I
said not much, and then said that I wasn't sure how much colder. Sub-zero
is one thing, sub-40-below another and as you can see from the data
(sorry) below, the average minimum temp in several ID locations (pick the
one closest to your propane tank) isn't anywhere near -40 (which of course
is not to say that it neven gets that cold), so it's unlikely that your
tank would reach -40 too often or stay there too long if it did. The
average daily highs are also below for comparison.

(from <http://www.met.utah.edu/html/mintemp.html>)
Normal Daily Minimum Temperature, Deg F

NORMALS 1961-90  YRS    JAN    FEB    MAR   OCT    NOV    DEC
B BOISE, ID      30     21.6   27.5   31.9  39.0   31.1   22.5
LEWISTON, ID     30     27.6   31.5   34.7  41.4   34.4   28.7
POCATELLO, ID    30     14.4   19.8   25.9  33.5   26.0   15.8

(from <http://www.met.utah.edu/html/maxtemp.html>)
Normal Daily Maximum Temperature, Deg F

BOISE, ID        30     36.4   44.2   52.9  64.6   48.7   37.7
LEWISTON, ID     30     39.6   46.6   53.5  63.2   48.1   40.2
POCATELLO, ID    30     32.2   38.4   46.7  62.5   45.2   33.7

---

From: Jim Haselmaier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 08:28:23 -0700

I've used both, as well.  As has been said, NG is more convenient.
With Propane you do have to worry about having it collect in low
areas.  In our county Propane installations below grade require
a propane detector.  Since Propane is heavier than air, when a 
leak occurs it will accumulate (like in a basement) to a level where
it reaches an ignition point. Then kablam.

Jim

---

From: [email-masked] (Dan Muller)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:27:46 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
> it reaches an ignition point. Then kablam.

Just a quick informational post relevant to this thread, which I haven't 
really been following, provided without commentary -- 

This week on a National Public Radio news report, I heard that propane 
prices are up 50% this year in some areas of the United States. Propane 
suppliers claim that it's partly due to delayed effects of last year's 
severe winter.

-- 
Dan Muller   [email-masked]
http://www.ziplink.net/~danm

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Shepherd)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 15:25:01 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
John D. Muccigrosso <[email-masked]> wrote:
:In article <[email-masked]>,
:[email-masked] (Allen Parks) wrote:

:| I won't argue with your science, as I'm accept for purposes of this
:| discussion that the figures are correct.
:| 
:| HOWEVER, for all _practical_ purposes, folks in the sub-zero climates of
:| central Idaho get along just fine with propane heat. Also, most have
:| woodstove backup just in case (most of them left over from earlier times)
:| 

In northern Minnesota the temp dips below -40 now and then.  Propane does
stop working.  During these *extremely* cold conditions, people have to heat
up their tanks (usually with a propane torch) to get them working.

Bob Shepherd

---

From: The Leatherman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 21:42:43 -0800

> suppliers claim that it's partly due to delayed effects of last year's

Our local paper in southern WI had an article that explained there is 
plenty of propane gas. We aren't about to run out. It's just that 
suppliers started out low on inventory going into the heating season. 
When this news hit the puplic, panic buying set in and made the shortage 
seem severe. Not so. 

I usaully paid about $.71 per gallon and this last fill I got hit with 
$1.05. Now it is up to $1.25 I hear. I am setting the thermostat lower in 
hopes that when I need my 2nd (and last tank) of the season, it will have 
come down. Wish me luck!

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 17 Dec 1996 04:19:37 GMT

>suppliers claim that it's partly due to delayed effects of last year's 

  I can't comment on this, but I know here LP is about twice the cost of
  oil and NG is silghtly less than oil (actually more than slightly with
  the unusually high oil prices this year).  The local gas company just
  ran the pipes by my house this week.  As soon as my oil tank runs low,
  I'm on gas.  I can fix the yard in the spring (which they've promissed
  to do).

  BTW, the installation costs me nothing.  If I rent their burner for
  $12/mo I get the installation plus full service.  After a year I can
  either buy it, or put in another.
----
  Keith R. Williams
  [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Shepherd)
Date: 17 Dec 1996 16:57:41 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Josh Dubnick  <[email-masked]> wrote:
:Bob Shepherd wrote:

:> In northern Minnesota the temp dips below -40 now and then.  Propane does
:> stop working.  During these *extremely* cold conditions, people have to heat
:> up their tanks (usually with a propane torch) to get them working.

:Heat a tank with a torch!?!  Isn't that asking for trouble? Don't they
:make electric tank heaters that don't spark or use an open flame?  This
:sounds awful dangerous!

That's also what I thought.  However, I was told that when it's *really*
cold, there isn't "as much" danger because there are essentially no fumes.
I also wouldn't doubt that people use propane torches because that's all
they have and they need to do something quickly before all their pipes
freeze.  Remember, < -40 doesn't happen that often.  I doubt that everyone
has heaters just for this purpose.

Disclaimer:  I haven't had to do this (yet).  I'm just reporting what I've
been told.  

Bob Shepherd