Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?

From: [email-masked] (Frank Lofaro)
Date: 6 Mar 1995 22:36:48 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harry H Conover) writes:
>Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
>perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
>fantasy.
>
>Damn that education!!!!   :-)

In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
plain and simple.

Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.

---

From: [email-masked] (Harry H Conover)
Date: 7 Mar 1995 12:50:04 GMT

Frank Lofaro ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harry H Conover) writes:
: >Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
: >perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
: >fantasy.
: >
: >Damn that education!!!!   :-)

: In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
: plain and simple.

: Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.

There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.
Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
category.

Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.  As I've 
said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
themselves a fool.  If it isn't immediately clear to you why this is so, 
you need to do more homework. 

                                      Harry C.

---

From: [email-masked] (William Beaty)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:51:40 GMT

To: [email-masked] (Harry H Conover)
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever

In article <[email-masked]> you wrote:
<delete>

: There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.
: Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
: energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
: category.

I think you are making a basic error here.  There are two phenomena you 
are lumping together: perpetual motion and free energy.  Perpetual motion 
is in the same class as Maxwell's Demon devices: foolish to pursue.

But there's evidence here and there for devices which RECEIVE energy from 
an unknown source.  The ones I'm thinking of are not scams or hoaxes (the 
inventors had their lives wrecked by announcing their discoveries.)

It is entirely within the bounds of conventional physics that there could 
be undiscovered mechanisms for converting matter to energy, for changing 
neutrino flux into electric power, for building "tame spacewarps" to 
extract power, etc.  A working "perpetual motion" machine is not very 
likely, but it is not impossible.  And if anyone ever comes up with one, 
it will quickly be renamed "energy receiver" or some such.  After all,
everyone knows that "perpetual motion" machines are impossible.

: Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
: being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.

This sounds like a cliche', but its true: those that pursued powered 
flight, spacecraft, etc., were accused of the same thing.  A few decades 
ago, planes and spacecraft were foolish dreams, and any who worked 
towards them were ridiculed.  Only in hindsight are the true fools obvious.

: As I've 
: said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
: contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
: however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
: themselves a fool.

...No, anyone who believes such devices could be real, risks BEING labled
a fool by people who are ready to heap ridicule on others whose beliefs
about what might be possible differ from their own. 

I think of it this way: in five hundred years, will mankind be using 
power generators which extract energy directly from the vacuum?  If so, 
will such generators be based on discoveries that the researchers of 
today could have made, had they just known where to look?  Maybe.  And 
it's possible that someone today is looking right at the effects that 
lead to these generators, yet discounts them as being measurement 
mistakes, since energy cannot just come from nowhere!

-- 
....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  [email-masked]           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page

---

From: [email-masked] (DaveHatunen)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:24:21 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Bryan Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:

[...]

>Where does one draw the line on the definition of free energy?
>How do we label energy created by wind or water motion?  How
>does this vary from the earth's magnetic fields (if I have 
>been following this thread correctly...)?
>
>I have no connection with these fellows nor their research.
>However, making blanket statements such as there is no
>free energy is a bit bold.  Yes, yes I know.  The laws of
>physics.  If you read Penrose or Hawking you'll discover that
>it ain't all been figured out yet...

In fact, it is to the contrary. All energy is free. It is the cost of
extracting, converting and distributing it for our uses that costs
money.

Only 50 years ago, nuclear energy was thought to be free...

-- 

    ********** DAVE HATUNEN ([email-masked]) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (Bryan Miller)
Date: 7 Mar 1995 21:03:27 GMT

Harry H Conover ([email-masked]) appears to have written:

[snip snip]

cheers,
Bryan
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein

---

From: [email-masked] (Frank Lofaro)
Date: 9 Mar 1995 01:21:23 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harry H Conover) writes:
%Frank Lofaro ([email-masked]) wrote:
%# In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harry H Conover) writes:
%# >Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
%# >perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
%# >fantasy.
%# >
%# >Damn that education!!!!   :-)
%
%# In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
%# plain and simple.
%
%
%# Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.
%
%There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.

If one has a closed mind, one will be FOREVER empty-headed, or just
have a head full of GARBAGE! Old, stale, false, stinking garbage and
lies, many of which are perpetrated by those in the Establishment to
save face!

Open-minded and empty-headed at the same time usually means not
empty-headed for long.

Closed-minded means empty-headed (or worse!) before long.

%Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
%energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
%category.

Bull! These are not myths. Ever hear about and TRULY try to understand
concepts of the new physics and the new world-views? Like scalar
waves, Whittaker's theories, zero-point energy, virtual particle
harvesting, "extra"-dimensions, resonance, negative entropy,
relativity's flaws and internal inconsistencies, Tesla's work,
Bearden's work, and the various other developments in innovations in
the new science and technology?

Or are you so closed minded that these ideas are HERESY and threaten
your world-view, which has attained the standing of a RELIGION for
which you must fight a HOLY WAR against I and the other free thinking
people here on the Net?!

%Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
%being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.  As I've 

Rejection of man's accumulated _prejudices_ IS being open-minded.

Labeling those courageous enough to challenge assumptions and question
authority as being "ignorant, stupid, or both" (in your words) shows a
narrow-mindedness and bigotry which is appalling in any event, but
much more so considering it is coming from "scientists" (or what
passes for them nowadays) and their supporters, whose mission is to be
open-minded and expand knowledge and develop new technologies.

That's why, as a society, our world views have solidified, we no
longer look towards or question what is out there, and why we have had
less and less fundamental breakthroughs (lately, none) and the fact
that more and more of what we do is ever decreasing rehashing of what
has already been discovered and developed. We are living a lie, a
collective hallucination of unprecedented magnitude and we need to
stop. People must open their eyes, keep an open mind, keep searching
for the truth, and stop trying to save face, stop trying to get ahead
at the expense of others and at the expense of science, technology,
and society, and stop trying to protect our "investment" in wrong and
limiting ideas and theories. A rational person does not throw good
money after bad. During the early years of the AIDS crisis, Dr. Gallo
decided ego and credit were more important than lives! That is
unethical and immoral, and so is the approach of many of today's
"scientific" elite.

We have to stop cowering in the corner and hoarding our current stock
of scientific knowlege, which is getting really stale, and instead
seek out new knowlege.

%said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
%contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
%however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
%themselves a fool.  If it isn't immediately clear to you why this is so, 

Labeling themselves a fool, no. Being labeled a fool, yes
indeed. There are a lot of bigoted people out there, for sure.

%you need to do more homework. 

I guess I got to go submit to more brainwashing.

I have read a lot more about these new technologies I dare say, and
thus are better qualified to judge.

So many of use free thinkers get flamed because we won't don the
scientific equivalent of a white hood and go riding into the night.

Progress won't be held back forever. Your obstructionism is hurting
many by restricting the flow of information and the growth of new
technology. These new sciences and technologies are so crucial, they
will forge ahead.

And you will be left BEHIND.

I don't place all the blame on you and everyone else that thinks the
way you do about new ideas. I know a lot of you are subjected to
brainwashing, and also that the old mindset offers "security". Many of
you are more victims than perpetrators (although there are many of the
latter, for sure!). You do need to open your eyes and take charge,
however.

P.S. Check out http://www.protree.com/KeelyNet/ and
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ there is a lot of gold in them hills!

These are many more sites out there like that too.

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl J Lydick)
Date: 9 Mar 1995 04:18:32 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Frank Lofaro) writes:
=In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Harry H Conover) writes:
=>Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
=>perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
=>fantasy.
=>
=>Damn that education!!!!   :-)
=
=In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
=plain and simple.
=
=
=Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.

There's a difference between being open-minded and having lost one's brain. 
Provide actual evidence, and not merely the moronic bullshit of jackasses too
stupid even to understand the importance of phase angle, and then some folks
might listen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [email-masked] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.