From vonk0004@gold.tc.umn.edu Fri Mar 10 21:00:31 EST 1995
Article: 5434 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
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From: vonk0004@gold.tc.umn.edu (Marc G. von Keitz)
Subject: Thank you and HERS-question
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I would like to thank everyone for the helpful responses on my request for
information sources on energy efficient buildings.  A summary of the infos
that I received is attached to the end of this message.

But, before I have another question:

I came across the Home Energy Rating System (HERS) and have been trying to
get some more detailed information about it.  I called the DoE in
Washington, they are working on a national standard based on HERS, but its
publication cannot be expected before April or May.  If somebody had more
detailed infos or has any suggestions about sources, I would greatly
appreciate it.

I am also interested, if any EPA programs are targeting energy-efficient homes.


Thank you very much for your help.


Summary of information sources on energy-efficient buildings.

National Renewable Energy Laborartory
1617 Cole Blvd, Golden, CO 80301. Ask for Doug Balcomb.

The American Solar Energy Society, 2400 Central Ave, Ste G-1,
 Boulder CO 80301 is another.

Minnesota Renewable Energy Society
2928 Fifth Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55408, (612)-529-8171
Mary Jane Heinen. 

Home Energy Magazine
6 issues for $49
(510) 524-5405

"Energy in Architecture" published by the AIA

"Energy Efficient Florida Home Building" by the Florida Solar Energy Center

Ray Bahms Homepage: http://www.rt66.com/rbahm/solar.html


I also got a detailed step by step description of building an energy
efficient home. If you are interested I can send it to you by e-mail.

thanks again everybody,

Marc

-- 
Marc v. Keitz
University of Minnesota
Civil Engineering

vonk0004@gold.tc.umn.edu


From weimer@pixel.kodak.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:33 EST 1995
Article: 5435 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: weimer@laplata.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Gary Weimer (64525))
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ECO Bulbs
Date: 3 Mar 1995 23:47:16 GMT
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In article <3j68hp$pqu@sundog.tiac.net>, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
|> 
|> Our local electric company had a special on these bulbs several years ago.
|> Unfortunately, from personal experience, they do have a down side, in fact
|> several down sides.
|> 
|> [slow lighting]

Bulbs using magnetic ballast take quite a few seconds to light, usually
flash on and off a couple times while lighting, and hum after lit.
Bulbs using electronic ballast usually light within 1-3 seconds, without
flashing and do not hum. Electronic ballast bulbs are also affected less
by cold temperatures, although temperatures below freezing may cause
problems. Placing a grounded copper strip against the bulb seems to help
it start better in colder conditions.

|> [poor light quality]

Fluorenscent lights are rated using a Color Rendition Index (CRI). A CRI
of 100 would be equivalent to sun light. A CRI of 85 is quite good.
A CRI of less than 80 is not very good. If a manufacturer does not tell
you on the packaging what the CRI is, it may be because it is less than
80.


As would be expected, you get what you pay for. Cheaper lights will have
magnetic ballasts and low CRI ratings. Do not go out and buy bulbs in
large quantities. Buy one and see how you like it. If you don't like it,
find out if it is magnetic ballast or has a low CRI. A good fluorenscent
bulb can actually look more like sunlight than incadecent bulbs.
Bulbs that you don't like can be placed in areas where their bad points
are not a problem (low CRI bulbs can be used in hallways, etc.).

Speculation:
It's probably not worth a lot of extra money to buy "full spectrum"
bulbs. Many are "full spectrum" for only the first couple hundred hours
of use (of the possible 10,000 hours).

-- 

Gary Weimer (weimer@pixel.kodak.com)


From pallen@magicnet.net Fri Mar 10 21:00:35 EST 1995
Article: 5436 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: pallen@magicnet.net (Paul Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Looking for Energy Efficient Office Building Design Info
Date: 4 Mar 1995 00:49:39 GMT
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I'm looking for information on energy efficient office building design 
information. Specifically, examples of the use of natural daylighting
to minimize interior artifical lighting would be great.

Actually, any office building that has been built recently that 
incorporates energy efficient design or systems would be great.

Thanks for the help...


From wlauzon@aol.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:37 EST 1995
Article: 5437 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: wlauzon@aol.com (WLauzon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Batteries for solar house, How do I maintain them?
Date: 3 Mar 1995 20:17:44 -0500
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You should keep a trickle charge on them at all times, either with a solar
panel or a GOOD charger (not one of those K-mart types that just feeds
about 17 volts to it) that is regulated.  Consider that a good regulated
charger costs almost as much as a small panel and controller, maybe more.
Before you buy these, try to check them out.  Get a hydrometer and make
sure that they are all up around 1.265 to 1.290.  If you find any that are
substantially lower, don't take it.
Buying used batteries can be a tricky business unless you know exactly
what you are getting.  I have seen some go for years, others crap out in a
matter of days.  See if you can find some kind of date code on the
batteries.
BTW, not all UPS batteries are good for solar systems.  Many are NOT deep
cycle - they are intended for a very occasional deep discharge, perhaps
only two or three times a year.  If you can get a model or part number, I
may be able to find out what it is before you buy it.

Warren Lauzon, Arizona Wind & Sun, Inc., Phoenix AZ.  800-964-8881


From lmwands@aol.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:38 EST 1995
Article: 5438 of alt.energy.renewable
From: lmwands@aol.com
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power Workshop in Colorado
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Ken,

Nice posting!

Mick
Re: Wind Power Workshop in Colorado                                          R


From matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 10 21:00:40 EST 1995
Article: 5439 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk (Mat)
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Subject: Re: Hemp
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In article <27858.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> AE%S
 "Randy Cox" writes:

> I think the EPA won't let you use hemp to power anything ... the combustion
> products make the  exposed populace stupid and hungry....
>
> Re: Hemp
>

I bet that by the time you'd smashed the plant up and refined it for
fuel, even drug-grade cannabis couldn't get you stoned as exhaust fumes
from a biofuel engine. Are these people having a laugh? Am I wrong?

--

       ++
      +M.+
       ++


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:00:41 EST 1995
Article: 5440 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Dwight jester <djester@RBDC.RBDC.COM>
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I have tried to unsubscribe the Alternative Engergy Discussion. However, I
have been unable to even though I have an e-mail describing how to do it. I
would appreciate help from someone as to how to go about it.

Thanks,

Dwight

Trying to Unsubscribe


From perry@imsi.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:44 EST 1995
Article: 5441 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: perry@snark.imsi.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.greens,alt.save.the.earth,bit.listserv.ecolog-l,alt.energy.renewable,alt.org.earth-first,nyc.politics
Subject: Re: Environmentalist: All Out for March 4
Date: 05 Mar 1995 20:52:34 GMT
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iac@blythe.org (Self avowed communists) write:


>                Press Advisory

>Environmental Researcher Calls For Concerned People to
>Mobilize for March 4 Cooper Union Rally in New York City

>March 4 Rally Will Oppose "Contract with America"

So, do you oppose term limits? A balanced budget?

>DeCarlo states: "The Contract with America threatens to
>dismantle the environmental work of the last 25 years.
>The contract would create 22 new analytical exercises
>that the Environmental Protection Agency would have to go
>through before it could take any actions. This would
>grind environmental protection to a halt.

And after all, its far better to throw hundreds of people out of jobs
so that bureaucrats can get their petty and utterly inane way.

The joy of the environmental protection activity is how much of it is
simply an excuse for increasing human misery. I once worked for a
fairly wealthy man who decided to do something for the environment by
buying a ruined swamp in his native North Carolina and having all the
garbage and other stuff removed from it so that it could be turned
into a wildlife preserve for waterfowl. However, not realizing that it
is evil to try to help the environment unless you are a bureaucrat, he
foolishly proceeded with his plan. He was arrested for "performing
construction on federally protected wetlands" -- for you see, his men
had temporarily built a dirt road to bring in the equipment they were
using to remove the junk from the swamp, and the removal of the
garbage also turned out to be illegal under our wonderous system.

He was, however, let off easy -- he was fined only one million dollars
and permitted to plead guilty to a misdemeanor. Had he tried to fight
it, he might have ended up in jail for many years.

Paul nearly had tears in his eyes as he announced the settlement to
his employees. He'd been born poor, worked hard, and tried to do
something for the world. Unfortunately, he thought he was living in
America. In fact, he's living in a nightmare.

When you decide that you'd like to do something for the environment --
a laudable goal -- ask yourself if your actions are actually going to
help your cause. Supporting the Environmental Protection Agency is not
a way to help keep the world green. Intentions do not count -- only
reality counts.

--
Perry Metzger		perry@imsi.com
--
So, why am I "selfish" for not wanting to pay high taxes to fund silly
government programs, but the people getting the money aren't "selfish"?


From robk@hal.COM Fri Mar 10 21:00:46 EST 1995
Article: 5442 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: robk@hal.COM (Robert Kleinschmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: generator in basement
Date: 28 Feb 1995 09:33:24 -0800
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
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In article <D4D5qK.B12@stortek.com>,
mike konshak <konshak@moorea.mcae.stortek.com> wrote:

	[A lot of pretty good advice, to which I would add ]

1)	Kohler at least publishes a very detailed installation
	manual for their generator line. (Standby units especially).
	I suspect Onan probably does the same, and suggest that this
	along with local code would guide you to a safe installation.

2)	I would consult with an experienced dealer and consider a
	professional installer at least as a consultant/inspector.

>(1) Run on propane, not gasoline or deisel (in the case of generators).
>

I seem to recall that diesel might be acceptable (perhaps not locally)
with the appropriate setup of fuel pump and small secondary tank. The
idea seemed to be that there was only a small amount of fuel in close
proximity to the generator, and any leak would cause shutdown before
much fuel could spill. Properly handled, should pose no more risk than
an oil furnace.

>(3) You must have a walkout basement if you are going to install appliances
>    in the basement area. That way any accumulation of propane (caused by an
>    unknown leak) that settles on the floor is drained out every time you open
>    the outside door (as it would on the main floor).

We actually have floor drains for the generator, hot water heater and
furnace, such that  the propane is able to settle through the drain
rather than collecting behind a closed door. (Generator is in separate shed).

>    I would recommend placing carbon monoxide detectors along with smoke 
>    detectors all over any cabin/home anyway, just for safety sake, along
>    with a liberal sprinkling of fire extinguishers.

I believe you can also get a propane detector at marine supply stores.
Generator should also control an electric shutoff on the gas line
prior to its own secondary stepdown regulator.

Generator should have its own primary regulator, separate from house
appliances.

Be especially careful of any flex lines needed for generator hookup.
Normal metal line used for dryer and water heater hookups tends to
fracture due to constant flexing as the generator moves on its shock
mounts. Best arrangement is probably a flexible (rubber ?) propane
hose between the secondary regulator and the intake manifold. This
should probably have metal sheathing to prevent mice from gnawing at
it. (From the secondary to the manifold, there is little or negative
pressure, so this is the safest point in your hookup).

Finally, I would seriously consider a separate shed, insulated if
necessary. Even for a cogen unit, the extra peace of mind might be
worth the problems you have to deal with. A shed against the side 
of the house, with some designed in ways to vent an explosion would
make me sleep better at night. This is probably paranoia, but a
generator is a lot more complicated than a standard furnace, with
more vibration and failure problems to worry about.

My two cents worth:

Rob Kleinschmidt


From wingyee@winglam.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 10 21:00:47 EST 1995
Article: 5443 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: wingyee@winglam.demon.co.uk ("D:NETDEMONWINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL")
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Subject: -->> Scrape Tyres ??
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Hello, I am looking for information on scrap tyres and especially on 
their disposal methods such as pyrolysis, incineration, recycling, 
reused, etc. Can anyone help me and give me some technological data 
about their hazards, or statistics of of their arising rate, or 
anything about scrap tyres? Many many thanks!
					Sincerely,
					Wing-yee WONG

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| EMail yee@winglam.demon.co.uk  |
|	enywyw@ccc.nottingham.ac.uk|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From billb@eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:49 EST 1995
Article: 5444 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: billb@eskimo.com (William Beaty)
Subject: Re: TMI + MRA updates, free energy devices ?
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
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MATT J. JENNER (mattjenn@STUDENT.GU.EDU.AU) wrote:
: On Sat, 25 Feb 1995, Stefan Hartmann wrote:

: > TMI + MRA updates, free energy devices ?

: Could someone please tell me what TMI and MRA stand for?
: Does "free energy" imply "perpetual motion"?
: Matt Jenner.




TMI is Theory of Magnetic Instability.  MRA is Magnetic Resonance Amplifier.

A "Free Energy" device is a perpetual motion machine which actually works.
There are a variety of possible sources of energy which could be tapped,
and there have been reports of devices which have actually done so.

Take a look at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird.html for more info
on "free energy."

-- 
....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From stevelynch@aol.com Fri Mar 10 21:00:51 EST 1995
Article: 5445 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: stevelynch@aol.com (STEVELYNCH)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: An insulated ceiling pond house
Date: 6 Mar 1995 13:23:38 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Nick,

While I find your idea interesting(as I do most of your postings!) I would
have a few concerns.  The first would be living with all that sewage
overhead.  It seems like something that eventually could cause a problem,
ie. hot nasty raw sewage & or gases leaking into living spaces.  I would
also worry about the build up of slime/mineral depostis etc.. in the
evaporation chamber and sewage pond.

While the value of using systems for dual roles is high the complexity of
of incorporating it into a system like you describe seems high as well.  I
think your design is buildable, but are you concerned that the long term
maintenance and operation would be problematic?

As for your solar hot air collection system I like what you describe.  Do
you have any drawings?  Better yet is there one like you describe actually
in operation?
Keep the ideas flowing!

Steve Lynch
"Talent, Imagination & Brainstorming are necessary for an effective group"




From hounsell@cc.joensuu.fi Fri Mar 10 21:00:52 EST 1995
Article: 5446 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: hounsell@cc.joensuu.fi (Paul Hounsell)
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Email Energy Support
Date: 7 Mar 1995 11:30:00 GMT
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In article <3ioo07$qi7@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, jwas@ix.netcom.com says...

[...]
>Don't you mean the *rate of progress*? Life expectanccy
>worldwide is growing by *several months each year*;
>other relevant indicators of progress all confirm
>that. Yet you believe, stubbornly, in *decay*. 
>
>That was my question: whatever
>makes one want to believe that, against the obvious facts?.

	Maybe because 1 in 3 babies (US and other "rich" 
countries) are born in families below the poverty line. 
Life expectancy is a measure of what was happening 3/4
of century ago or whatever the average life expectancy is.
Life expectancy should increase for the next 50 to 70
years and then it will decrease as the children being born
into poverty start dying early. Childhood health has a large 
effect on life expectancy. As the spread of wealth between 
rich and poor increase this will adversely affect your LE
(life expectancy) since rich people have fewer children
than poor and the since LE is an average then it will be 
brought down by all those poor people dying young. 
	ASIDE: Please note I am not in anyway a socialist, 
I believe that people should work for a living. I just 
think that some times they may need a hand. I am bothered 
by the rabbid capitalists who believe any interference of 
the survival of the economical fittest is either the work
of the deranged socialist or worst communist. There are 
other reasons for wanting to help those who are not as
fortunate as your self. I refer you to Aesop's fable 
about the lion and the mouse.


	Easter island is a good example of what lack of
foresight can cause. All the trees on the island was cut
down and the poepl there were much poorer off because of it.
The trouble is today, we can do the same to the whole planet.
We should stop to think about what we are doing and plan 
ahead. A little fore thought now will save us and our 
decendents a lot of trouble later. This of course 
assumes you are the type who are concerned about your 
decendents. We have been spending our future reserves to
live high on the hog. Both financially and ecologically.
If we want to stretch the margins we can ignore the problem
for a century or so but when the problems come then look out!
If we destory all non-human life on this planet then we 
are selves will die. Nature cares only about life not 
necessarily human life. We are and will continue to see more
"new" diseases as nature tries to restore the balance. I
was just reading that some people were planning to experiemnt
by putting the aids virus rna into the flu virus. Do we
really need to be able to catch aids as easy as the flu.
I think that this sort of thing needs to be thought about 
before we do it. Ooops is too late.

	We can progress to the stars but not at the rate
of destruction and waste that has been going on. We are
absolutely going to need this planet for a while to come
and long before we get off this planet we will be in deathly
trouble if we do not take a close look at what we are doing 
and why. We should ask our selves can we do this better without
as much waste or destruction. Do we really need to clear cut the
tropical forest to make chipboard for furniture? By simply
cutting areas less than 0ne square kilometer the forest can 
recover. By eating iguana instead of beef we can slow down
the sorch and burn farming practises. 

	New ecoligical slogan say it loud say it proud

	SAVE THE RAIN FOREST EAT IGUANA NOT BEEF!!!



	Later I hope
	Paul
-- 
=======================================================================
 Paul Hounsell                      |disclaimer: 
 Joensuu University Language Center |   Of course I have opinions, I am 
 Joensuu Finland                    |   just not responsible for them
 hounsell@cc.joensuu.fi             |   and neither is anybody else!
=======================================================================



From ftlofaro@unlv.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:02 EST 1995
Article: 5447 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.nevada.edu!homesick.cs.unlv.edu!ftlofaro
From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Date: 6 Mar 1995 22:36:48 GMT
Organization: University of Nevada, Las Vegas
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In article <3ittji$hnu@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
>Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
>perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
>fantasy.
>
>Damn that education!!!!   :-)

In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
plain and simple.


Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.




From conover@max.tiac.net Fri Mar 10 21:01:04 EST 1995
Article: 5448 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Followup-To: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Date: 7 Mar 1995 12:50:04 GMT
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Frank Lofaro (ftlofaro@unlv.edu) wrote:
: In article <3ittji$hnu@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
: >Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
: >perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
: >fantasy.
: >
: >Damn that education!!!!   :-)

: In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
: plain and simple.


: Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.

There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.
Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
category.

Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.  As I've 
said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
themselves a fool.  If it isn't immediately clear to you why this is so, 
you need to do more homework. 

                                      Harry C.




From jym@remarque.berkeley.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:05 EST 1995
Article: 5449 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dilute!dilute!ok!naughty-peahen
From: Jym Dyer <jym@remarque.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ECO Bulbs
Date: 6 Mar 1995 08:46:04 GMT
Organization: The Naughty Peahen Party Line (A 187-Free Zone)
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> The ones that I bought were of the electronic ballast variety,
> purchased on strong recomendation from my electric utility.

=o= What brand?  I wouldn't be surprised if someone cut a deal
to unload some obsolete junk.

>  (The bulbs went out with last month's trash.)

=o= A pity.  I put my annoying old-technology bulbs in places
like closets and the basement.
    <_Jym_>


From wlauzon@aol.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:07 EST 1995
Article: 5450 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: wlauzon@aol.com (WLauzon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Looking for a database
Date: 5 Mar 1995 20:25:18 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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On the Home Power BBS there is a database, but it is somewhat outdated.  I
have found that about 30% or so of the listing are wrong.
We are in the solar wholesale business - what kind of things are you
looking for?
There are some databases for sale, but I have not found them to be really
up to date either.
Warren Lauzon, Arizona Wind & Sun, Inc., Phoenix AZ.  800-964-8881


From tfrielin@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:08 EST 1995
Article: 5451 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: tfrielin@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu (Thomas J. Frieling)
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Subject: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:45:04 eastern
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In article <3jhg3o$8ho@cc.joensuu.fi> hounsell@cc.joensuu.fi (Paul Hounsell) writes:

>        Maybe because 1 in 3 babies (US and other "rich" 
>countries) are born in families below the poverty line. 

You miss the point here:  It's not that these babies are born into poor 
*families* that puts them below the poverty line. It's that they aren't born 
into families at all (at least in the US) . 

As Charles Murray points out, illegitamacy is the number one social problem in 
the US because it drives all the rest--unemployment, crime, low educational 
achievemnt, low labor force participation, and so on. 

Current rates:  Whites:  22% Blacks: 68%.  Total= 30% 
(source Statistical Abstract of ther US 1994, Table 100. Latest year figures 
available--1991) Trendline?  Up and up.

So what's this got to do with space?  Let's see in the federal budget you've 
got programs to attack these social problems--AFDC: $25 billion/yr, Food 
stamps, a like figure. Medicaid, HUD housing and on and on. 

Lot of big federal programs, lots of big tax dollars. And are these big bucks 
making the problems get better? 

And with so many children in poverty, can we morally spend billions on going 
back to the moon? 

This would be the moral high groud against which it would be difficult to 
argue except for the fact that the existance of these programs is actually 
exacerbating the problems they intent to correct. 

Solutions?  First, start by removing the cash incentives from the system. 

That's the conservative view.  Now back to space topics... 


From billb@eskimo.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:09 EST 1995
Article: 5452 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!billb
From: billb@eskimo.com (William Beaty)
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
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To: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever

In article <3jhkps$j3h@sundog.tiac.net> you wrote:
<delete>

: There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.
: Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
: energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
: category.

I think you are making a basic error here.  There are two phenomena you 
are lumping together: perpetual motion and free energy.  Perpetual motion 
is in the same class as Maxwell's Demon devices: foolish to pursue.

But there's evidence here and there for devices which RECEIVE energy from 
an unknown source.  The ones I'm thinking of are not scams or hoaxes (the 
inventors had their lives wrecked by announcing their discoveries.)

It is entirely within the bounds of conventional physics that there could 
be undiscovered mechanisms for converting matter to energy, for changing 
neutrino flux into electric power, for building "tame spacewarps" to 
extract power, etc.  A working "perpetual motion" machine is not very 
likely, but it is not impossible.  And if anyone ever comes up with one, 
it will quickly be renamed "energy receiver" or some such.  After all,
everyone knows that "perpetual motion" machines are impossible.

: Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
: being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.

This sounds like a cliche', but its true: those that pursued powered 
flight, spacecraft, etc., were accused of the same thing.  A few decades 
ago, planes and spacecraft were foolish dreams, and any who worked 
towards them were ridiculed.  Only in hindsight are the true fools obvious.


: As I've 
: said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
: contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
: however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
: themselves a fool.

...No, anyone who believes such devices could be real, risks BEING labled
a fool by people who are ready to heap ridicule on others whose beliefs
about what might be possible differ from their own. 

I think of it this way: in five hundred years, will mankind be using 
power generators which extract energy directly from the vacuum?  If so, 
will such generators be based on discoveries that the researchers of 
today could have made, had they just known where to look?  Maybe.  And 
it's possible that someone today is looking right at the effects that 
lead to these generators, yet discounts them as being measurement 
mistakes, since energy cannot just come from nowhere!


-- 
....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From mack2@gate.net Fri Mar 10 21:01:11 EST 1995
Article: 5453 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!tequesta.gate.net!hopi.gate.net!mack2
From: mack2@gate.net (Russell McGinnis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Alt Energy Discussion (How subscribe?)
Date: 5 Mar 1995 22:25:04 GMT
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Dear Gentle Eversowhomst:

     How does one subscribe to the Alt Energy Discussion group/list?



From conover@max.tiac.net Fri Mar 10 21:01:12 EST 1995
Article: 5454 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!spunky.RedBrick.COM!wetware!olivea!hal.COM!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!sony!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: photosynthesis
Date: 28 Feb 1995 04:05:49 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
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References: <BQ9atwd.stoneric@delphi.com>
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stoneric@delphi.com wrote:

: Just for kicking around, the effective charge on a mitochondria
: is a quarter of  million volts.

Curious, but when measured from where?  Please be a little more 
specific.

                                   Harry C.



From dnoble@magi.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:13 EST 1995
Article: 5455 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Duncan Noble <dnoble@MAGI.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!spunky.RedBrick.COM!wetware!olivea!hal.COM!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!sony!col.hp.com!simtel!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy gopher or WWW sites
Message-ID: <23406.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 18:41:28 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Duncan Noble <dnoble@magi.com>
Lines: 49
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Yves Robertson wrote:

> I am looking for gopher or WWW sites in the field of energy. If you can help
> me just send E-Mail, or Snail-mail or directly to the list.
>
> Thank You
>
> Yves Robertson
> Ministere des Ressourcees naturelles
> 5700, 4e avenue Ouest, B-406
> Charlesbourg (Quebec)
> Canada G1H 6R1
> Tel. : 418-646-9395
> Fax  : 418-643-4098
> E-Mail : Yves_Robertson@Infopuq.Uquebec.Ca
> Energy gopher or WWW sites

Here are some good WWW sites that also have good links to others:

Energy Issues   http://envirolink.org/issues/energy.html

Solstice: Sustainable Energy and Development   http://solstice.crest.org/

Energy Efficient Housing in Canada   http://web.cs.ualberta.ca/~art/house/

Rocky Mountain Institute   http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/rmi_homepage

Also, I encourage you to do some WWW searches yourself using one of the many
search engines available.  It is truely amazing what you come up with some
times.  Here is a WWW site with links to several search engines, as well as my
current favourite for user friendly searches:

Internet Search Engines  http://home.mcom.com/home/internet-search.html

Web Crawler   http://webcrawler.cs.washington.edu/WebCrawler/WebQuery.html

It would be great if you could summarize all the responses you get and post them
back to this news group/list server.


I  o  |
`
 J



   2

Re: Energy gopher or WWW sites


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:14 EST 1995
Article: 5456 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Kenneth Olson <kolson@CSN.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar Electricity Workshop in Tucson, AZ
Message-ID: <26780.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 03:04:42 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 44
Status: O
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Solar Energy International announces a Solar Electricity Workshop
for beginners, to be held in Tucson, Arizona March 27 - April 1, 1995.
A description of the workshop can be found in the e-mail flyer below.

SEI is a non-profit educational organization whose purpose is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energy through education
and technical assistance.


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

SOLAR ELECTRICITY WORKSHOP
TUCSON, ARIZONA
March 27 - April 1, 1995

* Learn the design and sizing of solar electric photovoltaic (PV)
   systems.
* Learn the basics of PV through labs and a hands-on
   installation.
* Tour residential photovoltaic systems, a utility-tied PV
   system, and the Tucson Electric Power Company's generating
   facility.

Series of four evening classes:         5:30 p.m. - 10:00 p.m.
                                        Monday thru Thursday

Hands-on workshop:                      8:30 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
                                        Friday and Saturday

$150  for all four    - OR -     $385  for all evening classes &
 evening classes                  the weekend hands-on workshop

Prices include textbook, handouts, product literature, etc.
PV tours will be held during the day on Tuesday and Wednesday.

** Evening classes are prerequisite for the weekend hands-on
workshop.  **

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For more information, contact Solar Energy International,
P.O. Box 715, Carbondale, CO  81623-0715, (303) 963-8855,
or write to kolson@csn.org.            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Solar Electricity Workshop in Tucson, AZ


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:15 EST 1995
Article: 5457 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Brendan A Niemira <niemirab@student.msu.edu>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!hsdndev!newsfeed.rice.edu!rice!news.sesqui.net!news.worldcom.com!emerald.oz.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: A vision for mankind regarding universe
Message-ID: <3963.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:22:04 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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X-Status: 

> My vision regarding reality, particularly human life:
>
> I see before me in my mind's eye stretched the vast history of the universe,
>  from beginning to
> end.  I see this as a result of many coincidences in my experience that led me
>  to seek out a true
> understanding of the world--an understanding that transcended that of those wh
>  taught me to
> understand at all. This was almost purely accidental, or at least not guided b
>  any conciousness
> that I know of, other than the universal life force, or God.

Come out from behind that curtain, Lee.  "Demosthenes", indeed.

Brendan A. Niemira
niemirab@student.msu.edu
Re: A vision for mankind regarding universe                                  R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:17 EST 1995
Article: 5459 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Kerry Miller <ASTINGSH%KSUVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: LETHAL Current in my pipes!
Message-ID: <1480.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:13:48 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Bob wrote,
> if you don't ground
> your negative, you have to put fuses/breakers on both the positive and
> negative wires.

So that if you do cross the wires, both fuses blow? Or so that if one wire is
(unbeknownst to you) already grounded somehow, it doesnt matter which?
What is being protected from what?

 - This is not to argue with you or your interpretation, but just to suggest th
at trying to deduce a definition of 'safety' from building codes is a
waste of time.

|{hm
Re: LETHAL Current in my pipes!                                              R


From travis.wheatley@amd.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:19 EST 1995
Article: 5460 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newshost.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!hal.COM!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl.com!amd!amd.com!txnews.amd.com!shasta!travis
From: travis@shasta.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Travis Wheatley)
Subject: Re: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Message-ID: <D52zqB.IG@txnews.amd.com>
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Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin, Texas
References: <3i901h$h3c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3ibj4h$sek@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3ijrds$64m@giga.bga.com> <3ioo07$qi7@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3jhg3o$8ho@cc.joensuu.fi> <tfrielin.71.0024EE2E@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:39:46 GMT
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.space.policy:10903 sci.systems:450 sci.environment:53344 sci.energy:29356 alt.energy.renewable:5460 talk.environment:24524
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In article <tfrielin.71.0024EE2E@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu>, tfrielin@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu (Thomas J. Frieling) writes:
|> In article <3jhg3o$8ho@cc.joensuu.fi> hounsell@cc.joensuu.fi (Paul Hounsell) writes:
|> 
|> >        Maybe because 1 in 3 babies (US and other "rich" 
|> >countries) are born in families below the poverty line. 
|> 
|> You miss the point here:  It's not that these babies are born into poor 
|> *families* that puts them below the poverty line. It's that they aren't born 
|> into families at all (at least in the US) . 
|> 
|> As Charles Murray points out, illegitamacy is the number one social problem in 
|> the US because it drives all the rest--unemployment, crime, low educational 
|> achievemnt, low labor force participation, and so on. 
|> 
|> Current rates:  Whites:  22% Blacks: 68%.  Total= 30% 
|> (source Statistical Abstract of ther US 1994, Table 100. Latest year figures 
|> available--1991) Trendline?  Up and up.
|> 
|> So what's this got to do with space?  Let's see in the federal budget you've 
|> got programs to attack these social problems--AFDC: $25 billion/yr, Food 
|> stamps, a like figure. Medicaid, HUD housing and on and on. 
|> 
|> Lot of big federal programs, lots of big tax dollars. And are these big bucks 
|> making the problems get better? 
|> 
|> And with so many children in poverty, can we morally spend billions on going 
|> back to the moon? 
|> 
|> This would be the moral high groud against which it would be difficult to 
|> argue except for the fact that the existance of these programs is actually 
|> exacerbating the problems they intent to correct. 
|> 
|> Solutions?  First, start by removing the cash incentives from the system. 
|> 
|> That's the conservative view.  Now back to space topics... 

I agree with your suggestion for a solution. However, I can't help but putting
in my $.02 here.

How can we justify spending big tax $$$ on space when we have an unemployment
and poverty problem? IMHO, the answer is comes in two parts.

1) Providing jobs in the space industry will serve to offset the large amount
of defense related jobs that have gone down the tubes as a result of recent
cuts in defense spending. It's true that a space program will not provide
jobs for all of the unemployed. However, it can provide a wide range of jobs
(everything from engineers to custodians) that would otherwise not be 
available. Further, at least the taxpayers get *something* for their money.

2) A large part of the unemployment/poverty problem (once again IMHO) is
due to overpopulation combined with limited resources. Space related development
may provide some answers for these problems in at least two ways. Firstly, many 
technologies developed for space related use can be applied on earth to raise 
the standard of living for us all. For example, development of a reliable,
clean, renewable energy source that is suitable for a space colony might be
able to be adapted to earth use. Secondly, the resources of this planet are 
limited and our population is increasing at an alarming rate. Laying the 
groundwork for future colinization of space would at least give us a place
to expand to when the resources on earth run out.

-- 
===========================================================================
   Travis R. Wheatley   | The opinions expressed herein are my own and do
travis.wheatley@amd.com | not represent those of anyone else in particular.
===========================================================================


From rnn@world.std.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:21 EST 1995
Article: 5461 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ross M Donald <rnn@WORLD.STD.COM>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FYI #34 - Rescissions (fwd)
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 18:44:07 GMT
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 95 16:26:24 EST

House Appropriations to Consider FY 1995 Rescissions

FYI No. 34, February 27, 1995

Republicans in the House are moving rapidly to curtail fiscal year
1995 spending.  Last week, action was taken on two measures that
rescind, or take back, funds already appropriated for the current
fiscal year.

On February 22, the House passed H.R. 889, a defense supplemental
bill providing additional money for peacekeeping missions and
enhancing military readiness.  Offsets for this supplemental
spending include a cut of $500 million from DOD's Technology
Reinvestment Program and $107 million from NIST's Advanced
Technology Program.

Also last week, the House Appropriations subcommittees worked on a
rescissions bill cutting additional amounts from the current budget
to offset federal spending on natural disasters, to fund proposed
tax cuts, and to make progress toward balancing the budget.  This
package of cuts, or rescissions, (no bill number is yet available)
will go to the full House Appropriations Committee this Thursday,
where sources say approval is likely.  The bill will then go on to
the House floor for a vote.

The proposed rescissions bill cuts nearly $17.1 billion from
current FY 1995 appropriations.  The largest reduction, of $9.4
billion, comes from the VA/HUD/Independent Agencies subcommittee.
Much of this is targeted toward President Clinton's National
Service initiative, housing, nutrition, job-training, and education
programs.  NASA's current-year budget would be cut by $66 million,
with $25 million coming from the Earth Observing System and $10
million from the Hubble Space Telescope program.  NSF would receive
a $132 million rescission, to be taken out of the Academic Research
Infrastructure program.  However, this year's NSF appropriation was
accompanied by conference report language specifying that NSF could
use the full $250 million for research infrastructure only if it
requested an equivalent amount in FY 1996.  By not requesting this
amount, NSF has already chosen to forfeit the $132 million.

Within the Commerce, Justice and State subcommittee, the Commerce
Department would take the heaviest hit, of $166 million.  A total
of $46.6 million would come from the National Institute of
Standards and Technology: the Manufacturing Extension Partnership
(MEP) would feel a $26.5 million cut, and technology research at
NIST's intramural laboratories would be cut by $19.5 million.
While NIST's cooperative programs with industry have been a
favorite target of many Republicans, a portion of this cut is aimed
at NIST laboratory programs, which develop standards, testing
methods and measurement techniques for industry.

The Energy and Water Development subcommittee proposes to rescind
$211 million.  Within DOE, reductions would be taken from
environmental research and restoration projects, solar and
renewable energy research, and technology transfer from the
national labs.  Within DOE's general science programs, the only
rescission would be $7.5 million from the Advanced Neutron Source
(ANS), a program which has been proposed for termination in the
Administration's FY 1996 budget request.


###############
Public Information Division
American Institute of Physics
Contact:  Audrey T. Leath
fyi@aip.org
(301) 209-3094
##END##########

                                ------> <RNN>

FYI #34 - Rescissions (fwd)


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:22 EST 1995
Article: 5462 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Mike Prine CIRT <mikep@CAPELLA.UNM.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: News from Marge in Abilene
Message-ID: <2490.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:29:23 GMT
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: If anyone has ever actually baked bread in a solar oven successfully,
: please talk to me at mwood@acuvax.acu.edu about it.  Thanks.

        Marge, we have baked a few loaves of bread in a solar oven and
even manage to get the top browned a little in most cases. The only trick
we have learned is to not try it unless the forcast is for clear with no
clouds all day. If you get clouds the bread will fall when the oven
cools. It still tastes ok but it looks funny.
Re: News from Marge in Abilene


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:24 EST 1995
Article: 5463 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ross Murray <rossm@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 1000 GW solar
Message-ID: <5521.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:19:35 GMT
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This looks good, but the Oceans are going to get in your way.  It's going
to be hard to get electricity to North America at night.

- Ross Murray



Re: 1000 GW solar                                                            R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:25 EST 1995
Article: 5464 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Ian D. Ritchie" <CXIR@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ECO Bulbs
Message-ID: <6422.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:34:19 GMT
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I would like to third the responses to the ECO bulbs criticisms.
I have found that most or all of the criticisms of compact fluorescent
bulbs pertain largely to the older variety that have magnetic ballasts.
The electronic ballast types usually come on within one second and don't
flicker.  They have quite an acceptable quality of light.  When placed
inside a light yellow lamp shade or amber glass shade a compact
fluorescent cannot be distinguished from incandescent light at all.
I have replaced all the incandescent lights in the sanctuary of my
church with compact fluorescents with electronic ballasts, and
after one year of use no one has at any time even noticed the difference
or commented on it one way or the other.  This is the more significant
because of the fact that aesthetics can often be a bone of contention
in churches and one can expect more resistance to the idea of putting
in "cold" looking light there than in other places.  But no, one, as I
say, has noticed the difference.
   I would say it is generally more worthwhile to go for the lights with
electronic ballasts now, for they can be used in a wider variety of
different contexts.  It ends up that the only place I would use
a magnetic ballast light would be in hallways that must be kept lit for
security reasons.

Cheers,
-Ian.

Ian D. Ritchie, Ph.D.   Protestant Chaplain, Marianopolis College.
fax: (514)-931-6786/ hm tel (514)-482-6308  email: CXIR@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
s-mail: 5709 Sherbrooke St. W. Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H4A 1W9.
Re: ECO Bulbs                                                                R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:27 EST 1995
Article: 5465 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Heather J. Scott" <scot0042@GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Energy efficient building design
Message-ID: <6460.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:34:31 GMT
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Paul Allen asked about energy efficient building designs.  The Union of
Concerned Scientists recently completed its new headquarters in Boston,
which they claim to be a state-of-the-art energy-efficient building.
Some of its features are outlined by Janet S. Wager in the fall, 1994
issue of their magazine, Nucleus (vol. 15, no.3).  Regarding lighting, it
says:

   "A central stair/atrium connects two floors to promote ease of
communication and a flow of daylight from the large overhead skylight
to both floor levels.
   "Walls made either partially or almost totally of glass provide a
sense of open space throughout all offices and allow the daylight to
penetrate deep into the interior.
   "High efficiency ceiling lights, specified for high color quality and
for reduced glare on computers, are fully daylight-controlled for
automatic energy savings.  The lights dim and become brighter in
proportion to the available daylight."

The contact info I have for the UCS public outreach staff is:  Lara
Levison at 202-332-0900 or ucsllevison@igc.apc.org.  This may be out of
date, though.  I'm sure they would be happy to send you more information.

Heather

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heather J Scott-2 at the  {}  "The dedicated life
University of Minnesota   {}              is the life worth living.
                               You must give with your whole heart."
scot0042@gold.tc.umn.edu  {}                                   -Dillard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Energy efficient building design


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:28 EST 1995
Article: 5466 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Peter Wolfs <P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 1000 GW solar
Message-ID: <11453.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 00:57:44 GMT
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>The problem with the global superconducting solar energy grid is its
>centralisation, and all the problems that this would entail. Who would control
>the grid - a huge multinational? In which country would most of it reside? It
>is OK saying 'cover the Sahara Desert' but this would involve over 8
>countries (I think), and countless nomadic and indigeneous peoples. Would
>hostile countries be subjected to 'punishment disconnections'. Paranoid stuff
>I admit, but it needs consideration.
>

I agree that this system has a range of downsides.

I can argue that a global system is not centralized. The large electricity
grids in Europe and the US are not centrally owned but belong to several
local operators. There is copper from Spain to Siberia. They interconnected
(at least in part) because of the economic advantages of selling power
across time zones. Perhaps a solar system as I describe will evolve if
utilities begin to pick up significant PV generation and interconnection
can be made over increasingly wider areas.

A nation may own its own PV systems and import and export power as
conditions dictate. In Europe it certainly happens now. The UK and France
exchange 5GW on cross channel cables to take advantage of time differences.

The internet is one other global network that is not centrally owned.

Dr Peter J. Wolfs                       [=---=]
Electrical Engineering                    \o/
Central Queensland University              X
Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
Australia
Tel +61 79 30 9599
Fax +61 79 30 9382


Re: 1000 GW solar


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:30 EST 1995
Article: 5467 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Dave Finnie <dave@insession.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Microwave consumption
Message-ID: <14803.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 01:52:08 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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The efficiency of the actual appliance is a little misleading, since we
need to consider how much energy is consumed in heating/cooking compared
to other methods.

While a microwave may waste 50% (or more) or its energy input, its method
of cooking the food is far more efficient. Rather than heating a container
(or air) which in turns cooks the food, it heats the molecules in the
food directly, and that is its big bonus.

In most cases the "efficiency" of cooking a certain lump of food is far
less with a microwave than with other cooking methods (including magnetic
induction cook tops).

Dave
Re: Microwave consumption


From perry@imsi.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:31 EST 1995
Article: 5468 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@imsi.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Environmentalist: All Out for March 4
Message-ID: <11441.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:57:28 GMT
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Kieran Roe says:
>
> Maybe the fellow in your anecdote did it the wrong way.  Maybe he intended
> to help the environment, but really made it worse.

And maybe I've made you so uncomfortable that you would prefer not to
think about the case of that fellow. His name, by the way, is Paul
T. Jones; he's a real person. Go and look up the details of his case
-- they are, after all, public record.

This individual isn't the only one. Federal wetlands legislation is
among the most thoroughly abused bits of regulation out there, but
there are others. What the EPA achieves, largely, is human misery.

> But I believe they are an awful lot of landowners out there who left to their
> own devices, would wittingly or unwittingly exacerbate environmental problems

The question is, does the EPA, left to its own devices, wittingly or
unwittingly make the U.S. a worse place, overall, to live. The answer, I
believe, is "yes".

.pm
Re: Environmentalist: All Out for March 4                                    R


From esact@selway.umt.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:32 EST 1995
Article: 5469 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: esact@selway.umt.edu (Anthony C Tweedale)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: [deleted pitch] vo-lumens
Date: 6 Mar 1995 19:04:27 GMT
Organization: University of Montana
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3jfmbr$q3t@umt.umt.edu>
References: <3j5ud9$36o@fnord.dfw.net> <3j68hp$pqu@sundog.tiac.net> <3j7asb$km7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3j7qkk$ini@insosf1.infonet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: selway.umt.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

bigdog (bigdog@netins.net) wrote:
: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
: [snip, snip]
: -{My digital light meter said I was reading in 0.4 footcandles
: -{of light, vs. the ISES recommended level of 50 footcandles. I didn't go blind.
: -{Neither did Abe Lincoln, who read in funny yellow candlelight....
: [more snip]

: The "turn on some light, or you'll go blind...." myth, is just that.
: The eye is a capable organ...and the muscle in the iris does what it does..
: Some folk just don't see as well as others, and there is the "accustomed" 
: aspect too...

in fact, i've heard that dim light is good for the eyes, it exercises the 
muscles around the eye--perhaps the ones that get flabby at middle age to 
cause shortsightedness?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
tony tweedale            |TEMPERATE BUT ENDANGERED PLANET.
recycle missoula, inc.   |ENJOYS WEATHER, NORTHERN LIGHTS,
224 e. pine st (2)       |CONTINENTAL DRIFT. SEEKS CARING
missoula mt 59802-4541   |RELATIONSHIP WITH INTELLIGENT LIFE
tel.: 406-542-1709       |FORM. (Friends of the Earth)
internet: esact@selway.umt.edu



From hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:33 EST 1995
Article: 5470 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!not-for-mail
From: hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Subject: This is not the problem  Was: Re: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Date: 9 Mar 1995 08:46:49 -0500
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
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Message-ID: <3jn0s9$999@b.stat.purdue.edu>
References: <3i901h$h3c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <tfrielin.71.0024EE2E@catfish.bbc.peachnet.edu> <D52zqB.IG@txnews.amd.com> <3jl32l$bu@gryphon.phoenix.net>
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.space.policy:10936 sci.systems:452 sci.environment:53391 sci.energy:29379 alt.energy.renewable:5470 talk.environment:24554
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In article <3jl32l$bu@gryphon.phoenix.net>,
Mike Jensen <mjensen@phoenix.phoenix.net> wrote:
>Travis Wheatley (travis@shasta.NoSubdomain.NoDomain) wrote:
>: How can we justify spending big tax $$$ on space when we have an unemployment
>: and poverty problem? IMHO, the answer is comes in two parts.

>: 1) Providing jobs in the space industry will serve to offset the large amount
>: of defense related jobs that have gone down the tubes as a result of recent
>: cuts in defense spending. It's true that a space program will not provide
>: jobs for all of the unemployed. However, it can provide a wide range of jobs
>: (everything from engineers to custodians) that would otherwise not be 
>: available. Further, at least the taxpayers get *something* for their money.

>Hey.. kinda a strange thought here.. but how's about this idea.. 

>Take all the engineers/science types on welfare.. (there ARE some
>I'm sure..).. offer them twice the normal welfare payments, in trade
>for 20 hours a week working for NASA.. :) You'd get more people to
>do the work that needs to be done, you'd have cheaper personnel
>costs for the projects, and you'd be giving those out of work
>people some practical experience with which to look for other 
>jobs..

This is not the problem.  There are more than enough engineers working
on the problem, but quite possibly not enough scientists and real 
designers.  One problem is that the best people for advancing space
research get into management, where their research abilities are lost.

The "information superhighway" is a narrow dirt road with lots of 
potholes, and these engineers will almost need to have access to 
the aerospace facilities.  And what is to be done about experimentation
which requires equipment?  Suppose an engineering genius comes up with
a possible way to get things into space cheaply, but which may or may
not work out?  Fusion energy was only 10 years away 40 years ago.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Communist China is technologically underdeveloped because they have no
>alphabet and therefore cannot use acronyms to communicate ideas at a 
>faster rate. -- Omni
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may have been a joke, but a native Chinese knowing a reasonable
amount of {English, French, German, Russian} can often figure out a
new word more easily in that language than in Chinese.

>mjensen@cpe.valpo.edu / mjensen@gp803.jsc.nasa.gov


-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!a.stat!hrubin(UUCP)


From rdsck@rmit.edu.au Fri Mar 10 21:01:35 EST 1995
Article: 5471 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!psuvax1!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU!ck.cse.rmit.EDU.AU!rdsck
From: rdsck@rmit.edu.au (Christopher Keen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cube of the wind speed??
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:20:37
Organization: RMIT Department of Computer Systems Engineering
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In article <2835.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" 
<dodeca!clyde@math.ucr.edu> writes:

>I'm not a airfoil expert but I always thought that Lift was proportional to the
>square of the airspeed.   
> Comments?  Anyone have a good reference to check?

Wind power is definitely proportional to the cube of the wind speed.
Check out ' The Generation of Electricity by Wind Power - E.W.Golding ' ,
the definitive text on the subject in my opinion.

Christopher Keen [ CKeen@rmit.edu.au ]
RMIT Melbourne Australia



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:37 EST 1995
Article: 5472 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: lattice towers
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Tom Gray writes:
[SNIP]
>Kenetech, which has been using lattice towers, is going to a modified
>tube tower with three legs or struts.  The struts make a costly
>foundation unnecessary, and Kenetech says the design can be built for a
>price comparable to a lattice tower.
________________________________________________________
Perhaps birds wouldn't try to perch on a lattice tower, if the
lattice cross pieces were placed at a very steep angle.
(i.e. as near to vertical as design would allow)

regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>
Re: lattice towers


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:39 EST 1995
Article: 5473 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Oil crisis coming up according to Barrons
Date: 6 Mar 1995 00:48:28 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
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In the current issue of Barrons (March 6, 1995), their "Up & Down Wall Street"
column (the most prominent column in the paper) deals with the coming oil 
crises. The writers see an oil shortage coming up soon, with major prices
increases to follow. Currently, oil prices are at historical lows, with very
few well being added (whioh was also the case in 1970). The difference now is
that Russia has halved its production capacity. The US has also a lower 
capacity than a few years ago. The arab countries does not have a large 
excess capacity, and they think Saudi Arabia is no longer as stable as it
was. Add to this a steady growth in glbal oil consumption, and Russia and
China likely to to have much increased demand in a few years, and problem
is brewing. 

This was just an attempt to summarize two pages, they are worth reading for
more detail. Hope some of the guys in suits would pay attention and think
a little further than their normal horizon. It is very prominently displayed
in a weekly paper for the money people. Naw, too much to ask...

Thanks

---
Steen Hansen                e-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist         (614) 292-9317 (Stores/Food: Tue/Fri)
Ohio State University       (614) 292-5174 (Dentistry: Mon/Wed/Thu)

Save a tree, use e-mail. 
#include <std_disclaimer.h> all opinions are my own, etc...


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:40 EST 1995
Article: 5474 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@atuvm.atu.edu>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Oil crisis coming up according to Barrons
Message-ID: <17624.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:38:50 GMT
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In the mid fifties a fellow by the name of King Hubbert looked and
data for discovery, production, and consumption of oil in the US and
predicted that around 1970 that in the US consunmption would outstrip
production and more importantly even discovery. (A plot of oil
availablefrom production in the US shows a peak about this time and has
fondly been refered to as King Hubbbert's Hump ever since. Continuing
expansion of demand in the US has been meet by importing oil, something
like half our total consumption.  I relate this story because Hubbert
also applied the same analysis to world supplies versus demand and
predicted the same hump for world supplies about 2000.  At which point
we ahve no where to go to find other oil.  I note in passing that the
biggest find of oil in the US in the last two decades was made in the
Gulf of Mexico- a reserve estimated to be about 700 million barrels-or
less than 2 months supply for the US at current consumption rates.
Even if we plunder the ANWR it will provide only about 2yrs supply.

Folks, the party is just about over.


================================================================
 Bob Allen                     psba@atuvm.atu.edu
 Professor of Chemistry
 Arkansas Tech University      501-968-0310
 Russellville, Ar 72801
Re: Oil crisis coming up according to Barrons                                R


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:41 EST 1995
Article: 5475 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Message-ID: <hatunenD54z8L.9wB@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <793832711snz@codesmth.demon.co.uk> <3jg2q0$l2m@homesick.cs.unlv.edu> <3jhkps$j3h@sundog.tiac.net> <3jihmv$5n0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com>
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In article <3jihmv$5n0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com>,
Bryan Miller <millerb@pt9217.ped.pto.ford.com> wrote:

[...]

>Where does one draw the line on the definition of free energy?
>How do we label energy created by wind or water motion?  How
>does this vary from the earth's magnetic fields (if I have 
>been following this thread correctly...)?
>
>I have no connection with these fellows nor their research.
>However, making blanket statements such as there is no
>free energy is a bit bold.  Yes, yes I know.  The laws of
>physics.  If you read Penrose or Hawking you'll discover that
>it ain't all been figured out yet...

In fact, it is to the contrary. All energy is free. It is the cost of
extracting, converting and distributing it for our uses that costs
money.

Only 50 years ago, nuclear energy was thought to be free...




-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From millerb@pt9217.ped.pto.ford.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:43 EST 1995
Article: 5476 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: millerb@pt9217.ped.pto.ford.com (Bryan Miller)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Date: 7 Mar 1995 21:03:27 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Co., Powertrain Electronics
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Harry H Conover (conover@max.tiac.net) appears to have written:

[snip snip]

>Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
>being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.  As I've 
>said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
>contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
>however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
>themselves a fool.  If it isn't immediately clear to you why this is so, 
>you need to do more homework. 

>                                      Harry C.


Where does one draw the line on the definition of free energy?
How do we label energy created by wind or water motion?  How
does this vary from the earth's magnetic fields (if I have 
been following this thread correctly...)?

I have no connection with these fellows nor their research.
However, making blanket statements such as there is no
free energy is a bit bold.  Yes, yes I know.  The laws of
physics.  If you read Penrose or Hawking you'll discover that
it ain't all been figured out yet...

cheers,
Bryan
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein



From swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca Fri Mar 10 21:01:44 EST 1995
Article: 5477 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Shem-Gbay M Swaray)
Subject: Stirling Engine - state of the art
Message-ID: <1995Mar7.143631.12038@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:36:31 GMT
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Can anyone tell me anything with regards the use of producer gas
to run stirling engines? Or, in fact, anything at all about developments
in general with respect to stirling engines?
I should appreciate any piece of information, including pointers to
further information resources.

Many thanks.

Mohamed
swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:01:45 EST 1995
Article: 5478 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: OPT address
Message-ID: <21051.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 07:10:13 GMT
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The address of OPT (Ocean Power Technology i.e. power from waves
using plastic) is:

 OPT
 P.O. Box 211
 Princeton, NJ 08542
 USA
 George W. Taylor, President
 Tel: 1 609 924 4455
 Fax: 1 609 924 7220

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>

Re: OPT address


From ftlofaro@unlv.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:46 EST 1995
Article: 5479 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Date: 9 Mar 1995 01:21:23 GMT
Organization: University of Nevada, Las Vegas
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In article <3jhkps$j3h@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
%Frank Lofaro (ftlofaro@unlv.edu) wrote:
%# In article <3ittji$hnu@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
%# >Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
%# >perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
%# >fantasy.
%# >
%# >Damn that education!!!!   :-)
%
%# In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
%# plain and simple.
%
%
%# Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.
%
%There's a big difference between being open minded and empty headed.

If one has a closed mind, one will be FOREVER empty-headed, or just
have a head full of GARBAGE! Old, stale, false, stinking garbage and
lies, many of which are perpetrated by those in the Establishment to
save face!

Open-minded and empty-headed at the same time usually means not
empty-headed for long.

Closed-minded means empty-headed (or worse!) before long.

%Unfortunately, those that perpetuate the myth of perpetual motion, free 
%energy, and other something from nothing devices fall into the later 
%category.

Bull! These are not myths. Ever hear about and TRULY try to understand
concepts of the new physics and the new world-views? Like scalar
waves, Whittaker's theories, zero-point energy, virtual particle
harvesting, "extra"-dimensions, resonance, negative entropy,
relativity's flaws and internal inconsistencies, Tesla's work,
Bearden's work, and the various other developments in innovations in
the new science and technology?

Or are you so closed minded that these ideas are HERESY and threaten
your world-view, which has attained the standing of a RELIGION for
which you must fight a HOLY WAR against I and the other free thinking
people here on the Net?!

%Rejection of man's accumulated body of scientific knowledge isn't 
%being 'open minded' -- It's being ignorant, stupid, or both.  As I've 

Rejection of man's accumulated _prejudices_ IS being open-minded.

Labeling those courageous enough to challenge assumptions and question
authority as being "ignorant, stupid, or both" (in your words) shows a
narrow-mindedness and bigotry which is appalling in any event, but
much more so considering it is coming from "scientists" (or what
passes for them nowadays) and their supporters, whose mission is to be
open-minded and expand knowledge and develop new technologies.

That's why, as a society, our world views have solidified, we no
longer look towards or question what is out there, and why we have had
less and less fundamental breakthroughs (lately, none) and the fact
that more and more of what we do is ever decreasing rehashing of what
has already been discovered and developed. We are living a lie, a
collective hallucination of unprecedented magnitude and we need to
stop. People must open their eyes, keep an open mind, keep searching
for the truth, and stop trying to save face, stop trying to get ahead
at the expense of others and at the expense of science, technology,
and society, and stop trying to protect our "investment" in wrong and
limiting ideas and theories. A rational person does not throw good
money after bad. During the early years of the AIDS crisis, Dr. Gallo
decided ego and credit were more important than lives! That is
unethical and immoral, and so is the approach of many of today's
"scientific" elite.

We have to stop cowering in the corner and hoarding our current stock
of scientific knowlege, which is getting really stale, and instead
seek out new knowlege.

%said before, free energy scemes, perpetual motion, et al are fun to 
%contemplate as logical puzzles or, at times, exercises in deception, 
%however, anyone that beleves such devices are real risks labeling 
%themselves a fool.  If it isn't immediately clear to you why this is so, 

Labeling themselves a fool, no. Being labeled a fool, yes
indeed. There are a lot of bigoted people out there, for sure.

%you need to do more homework. 

I guess I got to go submit to more brainwashing.

I have read a lot more about these new technologies I dare say, and
thus are better qualified to judge.

So many of use free thinkers get flamed because we won't don the
scientific equivalent of a white hood and go riding into the night.

Progress won't be held back forever. Your obstructionism is hurting
many by restricting the flow of information and the growth of new
technology. These new sciences and technologies are so crucial, they
will forge ahead.

And you will be left BEHIND.


I don't place all the blame on you and everyone else that thinks the
way you do about new ideas. I know a lot of you are subjected to
brainwashing, and also that the old mindset offers "security". Many of
you are more victims than perpetrators (although there are many of the
latter, for sure!). You do need to open your eyes and take charge,
however.



P.S. Check out http://www.protree.com/KeelyNet/ and
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ there is a lot of gold in them hills!

These are many more sites out there like that too.




From mrs@crash.cts.com Fri Mar 10 21:01:48 EST 1995
Article: 5480 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mrs@crash.cts.com (Mark Steele)
Subject: Announcing Workshop in Sustainable Development
Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 07:15:57 GMT
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           The Ecological Life System Institute 
             will present a workshop called 

"Eco-nomic Security in the San Diego - Tijuana Region"


If you are concerned about the future of the San Diego - Tijuana Region
and desire to take an active role in shaping its destiny, this four-week
workshop is your key to civic empowerment.

When:  Thursday, March 9th, 16th, 23rd & 30th 
       from 7 - 9:30pm

Where: St. Germain's Cafe
       1010 First Street
       Encinitas, CA  92024

Cost:  $50.00 per four-week session
       ($25.00 for ELSI members)


Contact for more information:

Jim Bell (founder of The Ecological Life System Institute)
2923 East Spruce Street
San Diego, CA 92104
(619) 281-1447
-- 
--------------
Mark R. Steele
mrs@cts.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:49 EST 1995
Article: 5481 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nick's lecture
Date: 8 Mar 1995 04:49:57 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
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DAN JOHNSON  <dan.johnson@contrail.com> wrote:
 
>I ... would appreciate any info you can forward [re Monolithic domes.]

The company is called Monolithic Constructors, Inc., of Italy, Texas,
which is about an hour from Dallas, I'm told. They make concrete/foam
domes, up to 400' in diameter and 200' tall, by blowing up a vinyl
balloon ("airform"), spraying an inch or so of polyurethane foam
inside that from the inside of the bubble, placing small metal plates
("skyhooks") with wires attached to them on the foam, spraying some
more foam on top of that, wiring up reinforcing rods to the skyhooks,
and then spraying 2-3" of concrete onto the rebar, all from the inside
of the bubble. They have plans for domes up to 800' in diameter.
Monolithic's phone number is (214) 483-7423.

They are having the First Annual Monolithic Domebuilder's Convention in
Dallas, TX from this Friday morning, 3/10, till Saturday afternoon, 3/11.
There should be at least 100 people there, including most of the Monolithic
staff and customers, along with some exhibitors, architects and engineers.
The convention costs $45, including a banquet and a bus ticket for a field
trip to Italy (TX :-) Saturday afternoon. Most of the conference will be at
the Dallas Holiday Inn Airport North ($65/night--(214) 929-8181.)

Monolithic is an exciting new little company with lots of spirit and a
willingness to try new things, from what I can tell. They also sell T-shirts,
slides, videos, jackets, "Nature's Perfect Shape" ball caps, and a $6/year
bi-monthly newsprint periodical called "Roundup." The number for
ordering this stuff is (800) 608-0001.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:50 EST 1995
Article: 5482 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: An insulated ceiling pond house -Reply
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: 8 Mar 1995 05:05:31 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
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Robert Sanders  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
 
>>So here's a more conventional house with an insulated pond in the ceiling...
 
>  There is a major problem with this in earthquake areas (most of the
>U.S.).  A ceiling and/or roof needs to be light weight and act as a
>membrane to hold the walls together.  Adding a pond overhead would
>make a dangerous situation as it would add to the forces trying to tear
>the walls apart and, if it fell, would crush those under it.

Thanks for the thought, Robert. I didn't think about that at all. There
is probably some solution, though, like putting the water under the floor,
thus sacrificing natural convection and heat trapping with overhead water,
or designing the building to take earthquakes, eg as a concrete/foam dome
with an integral ferro-cement lenticular diaphram tank above, or putting in
some sort of giant rip cord, like the ones in hot air balloons, that opened up
to let the water out quickly when an earthquake happened...

At the moment, I like the idea of hot water, sewage and rainwater under the
floor, in EPDM rubber/Thermo-Ply tank sandwiches, with a high-temp, low-power
fan to heat it by flowing 500 lfm air underneath... 

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:52 EST 1995
Article: 5483 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alt Energy Discussion (How subscribe?)
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: 8 Mar 1995 05:09:23 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
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Russell McGinnis <mack2@gate.net> wrote:

>Dear Gentle Eversowhomst:
>
>     How does one subscribe to the Alt Energy Discussion group/list?

One types g alt.solar.thermal in rn :-) If that does not work, one
writes one's gentle news admin to ask that the group be created
locally, so that its postings from dsinc and uunet, among other feeds,
are accepted rather than refused by one's site.

I seem to be almost the only one posting to alt.solar.thermal so far.
Let's go gang! Post, post, post to alt.solar.thermal! Or if that won't
work, crosspost to it and write your news admin...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:54 EST 1995
Article: 5484 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Oil crisis coming up according to Barrons
Date: 8 Mar 1995 05:14:39 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
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Steen H Hviid <shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

>In the current issue of Barrons (March 6, 1995), their "Up & Down Wall Street"
>column (the most prominent column in the paper) deals with the coming oil 
>crises. The writers see an oil shortage coming up soon, with major prices
>increases to follow.

Amory Lovins said in his 12/94 Atlantic article that we probably would not
have invaded Iraq had they only grown broccoli. As I recall, for years, we
shamelessly funded both Iran and Iraq in their war with each other, supplying
weapons and money to both, in an attempt to create a "balance" that would
ensure cheap oil for our wasteful energy habits and make Exxon rich. Kuwait
was more or less created entirely by Standard Oil, setting up some sheiks
to sell us oil cheap in the 50s, no? WE are the international terrorists now,
not the arabs... We walk up to the arabs and point a gun at their heads
and say "You don't REALLY want to raise the price of your oil, do you?"

In private life this would be called extortion or robbery. Imagine going down
to the supermarket with a gun and telling the checkout clerk that the oranges
are too expensive. You would like to pay a bit less... Imagine walking into
the bursar's office with a gun, and saying you don't want to pay more than
$500 for the linear systems course, because the professor is so dull. Even
before George Bush, the five previous presidents, including gentle, Christian,
blessed, peacemaking Jimmy Carter, had publicly threatened war in the middle
east if they "cut off our vital supply of oil," and I believe that included
raising the price significantly... We are addicted to oil in this country,
as well as cocaine.

It's  their  oil, not ours, and they have a basic right to sell it for any
price that they want to sell it for. We have been bullying them into selling
it to us cheaply for years. And killing them, lately, en masse. This is not
a good thing. Killing people is bad, and it cannot go on. For one thing,
there is only a finite amount of oil in the world. It WILL run out...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:01:58 EST 1995
Article: 5485 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: How much glass for solar gain?
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: 8 Mar 1995 05:34:06 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
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Ross M Donald  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

>     Guidelines for South facing glass:
>
>     Radical:  as much as possible

I agree. Well, enough to heat the house 100%, anyway, as a low-thermal-mass
sunspace, with a smaller glazed area inside in front of a high-thermal-mass
solar closet/sauna for cloudy days. And not just glass. Alternative sunspace
glazing include polycarbonate plastic (Dynaglas or Replex) or even good old
5 cent per square foot, 3-year greenhouse poly film...
 
>     Now, forget the guidelines.

Good idea...
 
>     Consider 5-20 gallons water in direct gain per
>square foot of glazing.  Too hot, too much temp flux -
>add more mass;  too cold - reduce mass, add movable
>insulation.  Get Mazria:  The Passive Solar Energy Book.

This works pretty well in the southwest, but I'm fairly convinced that
in places with a few cloudy days in a row, direct gain is bad, unless
there is movable insulation. Or at least it is much better to use passive
or low-power active air heaters on the south walls, with a good insulated
wall behind them, and a higher-than-living-space temperature heat battery,
inside the house, that can be well-insulated, vs a masonry floor behind
a big uninsulated picture window in the living room.

Nick



From ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net Fri Mar 10 21:01:59 EST 1995
Article: 5486 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net (Curt Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: [deleted pitch] vo-lumens
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:07:49
Organization: North Carolina Division of Energy
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
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In article <3j7qkk$ini@insosf1.infonet.net> bigdog@netins.net (bigdog) writes:
>From: bigdog@netins.net (bigdog)
>Subject: Re: [deleted pitch] vo-lumens
>Date: Fri, 03 Mar 95 18:28:12 GMT

>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>[snip, snip]
>-{My digital light meter said I was reading in 0.4 footcandles
>-{of light, vs. the ISES recommended level of 50 footcandles. I didn't go blind.
>-{Neither did Abe Lincoln, who read in funny yellow candlelight....
>[more snip]

>The "turn on some light, or you'll go blind...." myth, is just that.

  A large part of your need for light depends on how old you are.  The aging 
eye requires MUCH more light than younger eyes.  In some information I have 
seen, at 65 years old a person may need TWENTY TIMES as much light as a 20 
year old to achieve the same level of visual acuity.  IES sets standards based 
on average and/or worse case scenarios, so it's not surprising that a given 
individual may find they need less or more light.  In my lighting work, I've 
often found that older people need more light than the IES standard... a 
certain amount of this may be reluctance to change, but certainly part of it 
is legitimate.
  The eye IS an adaptable organ, but (as with so many things) as it gets older 
it is less so.

============ All opinions expressed are solely my own ======================== 
Curt Phillips, CEM  KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI)| "I don't want to achieve immortality
N.C. Division of Energy              | through my work.  I want to achieve
energy@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net | immortality through NOT DYING."
Energy/Recycling BBS 704-547-3114    |             -- Woody Allen


From k5bremne@sms.business.uwo.ca Fri Mar 10 21:02:00 EST 1995
Article: 5487 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Kevin Bremner <k5bremne@sms.business.uwo.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: fuel cells
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:31:25 -0500 (EST)
Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.90.950307201739.26453A-100000@sms.business.uwo.ca>
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Excuse me if I make any mistakes -- it's the first posting I am making to 
a newsgroup.

Peter:  I am also searching for information on fuel cells and would 
appreciate any info you can send my way.

I have been able to find several articles which discuss fuel cells:
	1)  Thinking Small: Onsite Power Generation May Soon Be Big which 
	    published in the periodical "Public Utilities Fortnightly" on 
	    1 July 1993.
	2)  Will Distributed Generation get its day in the sun?, 
	    published in "Electrical World" in the March 1994 edition.
	3)  PHOTOVOLTAICS, published in "Fortnightly" on 15 November 1993
	    *** this periodical may be Public Utilities Fortnightly ***
You might also try contacting the Office of Coal, Nuclear, Electric and 
Alternative Fuels (Contact:  John Geidl Voice:202/254-5570) or the 
Utility Technologies Dept? (Contact:  Robert San Martin  Voice:202/586-9275)

Could you please reply to my posting, I would like to find out what 
information we could share and if this actually works.  Thanks!!

Kevin;  k5bremne@sms.business.uwo.ca

P.S.  If anyone who reads this posting can help me, I would appreciate 
your assistance.

On 5 Mar 1995, Peter Wells wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can obtain information on "fuel cells"...
> help!!!!!
> Peter
> 
>   PETER WELLS  PXCA99A@prodigy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


From jdevenport@lanl.gov Fri Mar 10 21:02:02 EST 1995
Article: 5488 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jdevenport@lanl.gov (Jim Devenport)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ECO Bulbs
Date: 7 Mar 1995 16:25:40 GMT
Organization: LANL
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3ji1e4$np3@newshost.lanl.gov>
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In article <3j7asb$km7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) says:
<snip>
>Again, a matter of taste. And sometimes one's values influence one's taste.
>
>Nick
>
I have a running contention (aka argument) with my wife and family...
they absolutely HATE the light from tube flourescents and complain often 
about the so-called "warm" flourescents I have jammed into some of the
reading lamp fixtures.  I, on the other hand, have always LIKED the
brightness of flourescent light and ESPECIALLY like it when reading the
monthly electric bill under it.  I'm convinced it has something to do 
with who is PAYING for the bill!
By the way, I have one (Since they are SO expensive) rapid-start VHF
flourescent bulb that NO ONE has ever complained about... I think it is
because it starts instantly just like an incandescent bulb and they
don't notice any flicker and thus don't realize it is (SHUDDER)
flourescent light.
Even I get impatient with the GE "squatty-fat" screw in flourescents when
they blink, flutter, and sloooooowly come to life when I flip the switch,
but since my fam likes to leave lights on all the time, even in broad 
daylight (gripe gripe whine), I still prefer even them to incandescents.
Jim Devenport


From ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net Fri Mar 10 21:02:03 EST 1995
Article: 5489 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net (Curt Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Radical Conservation
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:24:39
Organization: North Carolina Division of Energy
Lines: 44
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In article <$bVLlS9cpMNP069yn@teleport.com> kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens) writes:
>From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens)
>Subject: Radical Conservation
>Date: 2 Mar 1995 11:40:46 -0800


>It is a little strange to think of conservation as a renewable
>energy source, but it does share some of the same characteristics.  Calling
>conservation ideas radical is also a little strange.  There are

  Most of your ideas are very good, but No. 3 here?????

>3.  Switch to battery or low power clocks.  Put appliances with
>    clocks on a switch.  Be especially wary of clock radios with
>    large time displays.  Also, put all those little cubes that
>    plug into sockets on a switch.

  First of all, batteries are VERY energy inefficient.  When they allow you 
to use solar generated energy when the sun isn't shining, or they allow you 
access to a portable energy source, etc, they are tolerable, but otherwise the 
inefficiencies of charging and discharging etc. make them a bad (and costly) 
choice.  Besides,  you'd have trouble quantifying the energy used by clocks in 
a home.  The LEDs used in most displays are not a particularly energy 
intensive source of light (to wit, many building are replacing their
incandescent lit EXIT signs with LED lit EXIT signs).
  The little "cubes" (power transformers) should be placed in switchable power 
strips or the like mainly to lengthen their service life.  They DO use a (very 
small) amount of power when plugged in, but by far them most debilitating 
thing about leaving them plugged in is that is shortens their life.


>4.  Put a notice on the clothes drier to consider drying small
>    loads in a window or outside.  Better yet put up a clothes
>    line and use it.
 
  An EXCELLENT suggestion.  You might be surprised at how many people lament 
how little WE(?) use "solar energy", yet they do not have a clothes line... a 
cheap and very cost effective way to use "solar energy".

=========== Any opinions expressed are solely my own =====================
Curt Phillips, CEM  KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI)| "People who live in glass houses...
N.C. Division of Energy              |   
energy@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net |         need lotsa curtains!"
Energy/Recycling BBS 704-547-3114    |            -- Curt-fucius


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:02:05 EST 1995
Article: 5490 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Sanders <rsanders@ALB.ASCTMD.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: --Clean Energy Letter to Clinton -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <1526.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:54:24 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 35
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>This is actually a pretty impressive example of coalition-building within
>the community of organizations who favor energy efficiency and
>renewables.

  I agree and please believe me that I do support AE and renewables.
But I've also (physically) seen a lot of R&D done in renewables, federally
funded, information published, and nothing done.  Examples ---
Savonious (sic) wind generators (they took the one that Sandia Labs
worked on here, down around '88 and built a strip mall), NASA wind
generator up in Clayton (powered 1/3 of the town), solar boiler (still
stands out at Kirtland AFB), geo-thermal well (up in Los Alamos), and a
few others --- PV test facility over near McDonald Observeratory in TX,
Tehaphi Pass in CA.

  Plus we have the work done by private companies -- Midway Labs
with their new concentrating PV system, Air Research's new little wind
generator, and the always cool stuff out of Zomeworks, among others.

>the action called for by the letter, a shift in R&D funding, may not be.

  And here we have the jist of the problem.  I state again --- do away
with the program.  But since you bring it up, and since it is my money, I
feel I must ask --- what am I going to see from this R&D funding?

  I'll provide your first answer --- educate the public in an honest manner
with facts.  (Mainly educate the women.)

  I'm not trying to pick on you specifically Tom, and please believe me if I
could get my hands on a few congress folks  I'd make life tough for them
and for Clinton.

  Bob (rsanders@alb.asctmd.com)


--Clean Energy Letter to Clinton -Reply -Reply


From ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net Fri Mar 10 21:02:06 EST 1995
Article: 5491 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ED.WCP@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net (Curt Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Radical Conservation
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:36:12
Organization: North Carolina Division of Energy
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <ED.WCP.35.00119AF6@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net>
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In article <3je22f$hvh@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
>From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
>Subject: Re: Radical Conservation
>Date: 6 Mar 1995 04:11:59 GMT

>Chris Seelig (cds@elric.cc.rl.ac.uk) wrote:

>: Anyone got any firm figures on the efficiency of a microwave? Maybe
>: this is a good next experiment for my roving electricity meter!

>While not a "firm figure", my references provide the efficiency of a
>magnetron as being in the vicinity of 50%.  Couple this with r.f. coupling 
>and power supply losses and you're probably down to something like 25% 
>efficiency.

>The bottom line appears to be: If you're interested in energy 
>efficiency, you don't even want to own a microwave oven!

  As compared to what?  The "efficiency" of a microwave oven, as you have 
expressed it, is relevant only compared to another microwave oven.  And 
certainly, you'd like to get the most efficient microwave oven you can.

   However, for a practical analysis, you must compare the energy 
required to cook a given item in a microwave oven versus the energy required 
to cook the same item in an conventional oven.  In this type of comparison, 
the microwave oven looks GREAT, because it cooks in much less time than a 
convention oven and often uses less energy even on a "per minute" basis.

================= Any opinions expressed are solely my own =================
Curt Phillips, CEM  KD4YU (ex-WB4LHI),Systems Engineer/Industrial Proj. Mgr.
North Carolina Division of Energy   |Pres., Tarheel Assn. of Energy Engineers 
energy@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net|Contributing Editor,
Energy/Recycling BBS 704-547-3114   |        Energy User News magazine




From carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:02:08 EST 1995
Article: 5492 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: TMI device, free energy device ?
Date: 9 Mar 1995 04:18:32 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3jlvio$h1i@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <793832711snz@codesmth.demon.co.uk> <3isttf$2uf@news.uncc.edu> <3ittji$hnu@sundog.tiac.net>,<3jg2q0$l2m@homesick.cs.unlv.edu>
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Status: O
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In article <3jg2q0$l2m@homesick.cs.unlv.edu>, ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro) writes:
=In article <3ittji$hnu@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
=>Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to truly believe in magic, alchemy, 
=>perpetual motion, free energy, et al?  Sure would, but it's just 
=>fantasy.
=>
=>Damn that education!!!!   :-)
=
=In too many cases, much of what passes for education is pure brainwashing, 
=plain and simple.
=
=
=Try listening to people with a different viewpoint, and be open minded.

There's a difference between being open-minded and having lost one's brain. 
Provide actual evidence, and not merely the moronic bullshit of jackasses too
stupid even to understand the importance of phase angle, and then some folks
might listen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 10 21:02:09 EST 1995
Article: 5493 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fan power (was: Cube of the wind speed??)
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: 8 Mar 1995 08:58:52 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3jkd6s$com@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <2835.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <rdsck.12.000B5852@rmit.edu.au> <ED.WCP.38.00128032@cphillips.pdial.interpath.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Status: O
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>  The power required to operate a fan varies with the cube of the amount of 
>air moved (usually in CFM, cubic feet per minute). 

I think we might add, "for a given duct size." If we make the air ducts large,
and the airspeed low, we can make the dynamic air pressure and duct friction
and fan power as low as we want, practically-speaking. For instance, 100' of
a 2' x 2' duct with a cross sectional area of 4 ft^2, carrying 2,000 CFM and
500 linear feet per minute (lfm) of air, has a back pressure of only about
0.01" of water, according to my 1993 ASHRAE HOF.

This goes well with the performance of the 16" Grainger 4C861 1600 rpm (max),
high-temp (311 F), high-priced ($359), very reliable (3 year guarantee),
low-power (240 watts, max, with no speed control) fan, which is rated to
deliver 2765 CFM in free air, and 2190 CFM at 0.20 inches of water.

And this pressure and fan power is quite low compared to many hot air heating
systems using more powerful blowers with tiny cheap ducts. One way to make big
ducts is to blow air between multiple studs or joists or rafters... So if
we want to minimize fan power, and use fans instead of more energy-consuming
blowers, we should make the ducts big and the air velocities and rpm's low.
The last two things also minimize acoustical noise.

Norman Saunders recommends that new houses have a 2' x 2' airshaft from
top to bottom, so solar heat can be stored upstairs in the winter, and
easily transported downstairs, and cool air from the basement floor can
easily be transported upstairs in the summer. He says this allows easy
air movement of 1 m^3/sec, which transfers 1 kW/degree Kelvin, or was that
10 degrees Kelvin? Let's see. One Btu can heat 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F...

Nick



From AE@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU Fri Mar 10 21:02:10 EST 1995
Article: 5494 of alt.energy.renewable
From: William Bill Kovarik <wkovarik@RUACAD.AC.RUNET.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Oil crisis
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Thanks, Tom. Just wanted to add that the oil reserve figures
you cite are "proven" reserves, that is, oil we are certain
is there because there have been investments in production
capacity.  Probable, potential and ultimately recoverable
reserve figures would be higher, but then, there is a degree
of uncertainty about them.
And while we're being complimentary, I just wanted to say
I really appreciate all the fine work you and the wind energy
assocation are doing.
Bill Kovarik
Re: Oil crisis                                                               R


From conover@max.tiac.net Fri Apr  7 11:36:43 EDT 1995
Article: 5966 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: reply to Nick Pine
Date: 2 Apr 1995 18:20:10 GMT
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Newton T. Ellison (nellison@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu) wrote:

:    We need to downsize human individuals, starting with offering large 
: size people incentives *not* to reproduce so much. It would take 
: thousands of years, but a human race with individuals, say, six inches
: tall, and individual fauna, flora and automobiles in proportion would 
: be nice, and there could be a lot more of us.

Interesting, original idea -- I like it!

Keeping "individual fauna, flora and automobiles in proportion" would
be critical, otherwise an ordinary house cat would prove an awesome and
unpleasant encounter for a 6-inch human!

Seriously though, didn't someone once analytically determine 'optimal
success' humanoid dimensions based upon physical parameters of the
environment? 

                                     Harry C.
  














From kevin.jessup@mail.mei.com Fri Apr  7 11:36:44 EDT 1995
Article: 5967 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: kevin.jessup@mail.mei.com (Kevin Jessup)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:00:46 UNDEFINED
Organization: Marquette Electronics, Inc
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In article <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de> harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann) writes:

>Well, I have worked together with the inventor and another "magnet freak"
>during this weekend on the design and we found the solution how to power a  
>motor just via using Permanent Magnets !

Not THIS again!!!!

Nice little ASCII pictures.  However, I saw NO thermodynamic or mass
to energy equations.  Care to enlighten those of us who like math as
to WHERE the energy comes from??

Nobody believes this crap.  If it really works, BUILD a product (and there
are THOUSANDS of applications if it really DOES work) and you will become
the richest man on Earth, thus proving your point.

No need to pollute the space of the SCI newsgroups.


--
Kevin Peter Jessup, Software Engineer        Marquette Electronics, Inc
kevin.jessup@mail.mei.com                  Milwaukee, WI  MarqEL NASDAQ
I prefer PGP encrypted mail.                         http://www.mei.com


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:36:45 EDT 1995
Article: 5968 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Marge Wood <mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: windy in Abilene....
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Does anyone know if the proposed vertical axis wind turbine was ever
built in the Texas Panhandle?  I know there is supposed to be some sort
of study going on up there about wind.  I've been doing a keyword search
and not finding what I'm going after.
Marge
windy in Abilene....


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:36:47 EDT 1995
Article: 5969 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Forward Thinking <0007354216@mcimail.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free Catalog Offer "AD"
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Greetings

I would like to recommend the following free catalog offer to you.
Its from ADVENTURES UNLIMITED PRESS

Its 50+ pages and filled with illustrations of some of the most
unusual books and videos available.

If you are interested in Anti-Gravity, Free Energy,
Tesla Technology, and the secrets of Ancient Science.
And much much more.
Then I feel you will really enjoy this catalog.

Just reply with your name and postal address to
forwardthinking@mcimail.com

I am affiliated with this company.
But I still feel that you still should have this catalog.

Harry G. Osoff


I apologize to anyone who this post offends.

Free Catalog Offer "AD"


From gorski@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu Fri Apr  7 11:36:49 EDT 1995
Article: 5970 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: gorski@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu (Tom Gorski)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Date: 4 Apr 1995 13:24:54 GMT
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, Univ. of WI-Madison
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In article <18$VlS6KR1lK079yn@gate.net> jstanley@gate.net (John A. Stanley) writes:
>In article <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de>,
>harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann) wrote:
>> Well, I have worked together with the inventor and another "magnet freak"
>> during this weekend on the design and we found the solution how to power a  
>> motor just via using Permanent Magnets !
>
>Oh, Jeez... not again. Ya know, some dude named Howard Johnson
>was issued a patent back in the 70's for a motor using only
>permanent magnets; nothing ever became of it. Gee, I wonder why.
>

Doesn't suprise me.  About a year ago a genuine US patent crossed my desk
for a "non-radial drive" motor.  Believe it or not, the idea was that the
rotor contained salients which had a slight dog-leg in the iron, such
that they weren't oriented radially from the shaft.  The idea was that
with this offset orientation, some of the reluctance force normal to the
air gap would be coupled into torque.  And it would work--for about 1/16 of a
turn, until the next salient goes KA-CHUNK! against the stator pole piece.

The inventor also failed to incorporate a flux return path in his stator,
and used wound coils for the stator field instead of putting the windings
into slots at the air gap.

In a way it is admirable that this particular inventor was undaunted by
an ignorance of basic machine theory, pursuing his vision to gain a US
patent.  But it also shows that the patent office is ignorant or uncaring
of the laws of physics when considering such inventions.

And no, using permanent magnets won't fix the problems here.  :-)
>--
>John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net

--Tom Gorski



From an48068@anon.penet.fi Fri Apr  7 11:36:50 EDT 1995
Article: 5971 of alt.energy.renewable
Message-ID: <154305Z03041995@anon.penet.fi>
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Subject: Reflective Surface Needed
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From: tcupp (Terry Cupp)

  I am in the process of making a 10' parabolic mirror out of an old satilite
  dish.  I have found some reflective silver plastic which works well for a
  while, however after a few months the sun fades and cracks this material. 
  Does anyone know of a flexable material that would hold up to the sun for a
  longer period of time.  I live in Las Vegas so the material will be exposed
  to alot of summer dry heat.

Aluminum foil, shiny side up?  Then you just need to worry about finding a
suitable adhesive.

Stainless Steel Auto Body 'repair'/trim tape?

Jim Baranski                     ! Note:  I use the Anon Server to Post because
Norwich, CT                      ! I don't have a Posting Host. So I include my
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From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:36:52 EDT 1995
Article: 5972 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Mike Chambers <MC4PETRO@aol.com>
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Subject: Re: Free Catalog Offer "AD"
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Please send catalog to: Mike Chambers, P.O. Box 3908, Evansville, Ind. 47737
Re: Free Catalog Offer "AD"


From harti@shb.contrib.de Fri Apr  7 11:36:53 EDT 1995
Article: 5974 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!uunet!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!netmbx.de!uropax.contrib.de!shb.contrib.de!harti
Date: 04 Apr 1995 07:29:00 +0100
From: harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,de.sci.electronics,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics.particle
Message-ID: <5jE8Di_PldB@shb.contrib.de>
Subject: TOMI and PM_Square explanation !?
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Status: O
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Hi,
I received this from an "anonymous" friend. Please read it and let me know  
what you think about this theory for the explanation of the TOMI and  
PM_Square effect !



Irreversible Processes in Fields
================================

It is well known theory that the thermodynamic potentials go to
an extremum. This is regarded as equivalent to Planck's 2nd law
although the complete equivalence between both formulations of
the second law never have been proved generally, especially if we
apply the extremum principle of the thermodynamic potentials to
electromagnetic fields. In this article we investigate this
question.

I. Irreversible Processes in Vapour-Liquid Mixtures

We begin here with a well known and quite trivial example. We
regard two cylinder volumes connected by a tap in the middle.
Both the volumes can be set by moving a piston up and down into
or out of the volume.  With this experimental setup we proceed
the following isothermic irreversible cycle, comp fig.1a):We take a fluid  
(for example water) being at the dew line of the
phase diagram. We expand both the pistons isothermically from
point 1 to point 2. So liquid condenses and is collected in the
lower cylinder. Now the tap is closed and both the volumes are
recompressed at equal pressures until the starting volume is
reached again. Now we regard the question whether Planck's law is
fulfilled. This question can be answered by writing the 2nd law
for free energy which states that the free energy F tends to be a
minimum. Therefore, if we leave the minimum in doing the cycle
          Fstart-Fend = - circle integral P dV > 0

must hold because the cycle is isothermal (dT=0)  with no matter
exchange (dn=0). The orientation of the integral shows that
Planck's second law holds, comp. fig.1b).

II. Irreversible Processes in Fields

a) General
According Landau and Lifshitz (1) the free energy of a system
including electric fields and linear dielectrics is defined by
     F'(V,T,D) = F(V,T) + 1/(8*Pi*eps) Int D^2 dV

The Legendre transform of this potential is

     F''(V,T,E) = F(V,T) - eps/(8*Pi) Int E^2 dV

Both these definitions are not useful for thermodynamics
because they are non-homologous functions regarding the molar
ratios. Therefore, the following definitions are used and
specified for constant dielectrics

f'(V,T,P) = f (V,T) + 1/(8*Pi) Int E dP = f + 1/(8*Pi*Xi) P^2
f''(V,T,E) = f(V,T) - 1/(8*Pi) Int P dE = f - Xi/(8*Pi) E^2
Regarding the 2nd derivative of the electric variable of both
these potentials we see that for a constant homogene dielectrics
f'(V,T,P) approaches a minimum and f''(V,T,E) approaches a
maximum in the equilibrium state, if Xi > 0. Similar
considerations hold for magnetic fields as well.
b) Mixing Processes
Now, similar like in section I, we investigate an isothermic and
isochoric cycle if an intense field is applied to a non ideal -
non linear binary dielectric liquid (2).
We start at the phase separation line at low field and apply a
stronger field. Then demixing of the solution occurs. We close
the tap and discharge the field. In the endpoint of the cycle at
lower field we reopen the tap and return to equilibrium. Because
we leave the equilibrium in performing the cycle the unequality

                df'' = - circle integral P dE < 0

holds according the last lines of section II a). Regarding the
orientation of this integral we realize that it is a negative
hysteresis relative to the usual ferroelectric hysteresis. Therefore, our  
consideration predicts a violation of Planck's
second law  for electrically induced irreversibilities. The
irreversibility goes the other way round according to the Gibbs
formalism contrary to Planck's 2nd law.
c) Permanent Magnet Motors
In Landau/Lifshitz (1) there exists a proof which shows that if
we introduce a para- or ferromagnetic body into a fixed magnetic
field (j=constant) the following relation holds:

                    df' = - M dH

Because df' approaches a maximum we interprete this equation that
a self accelerating perpetual motion is possible in a magnetic
field as an irreversibility.
Therefore, in order to find an example we first rule out the
conditions under which a perpetuum mobile is impossible. This is
always the case if the magnetic field can be described as a
potential field. According Jackson(3) a magnetic field of a
closed loop or the field of a hard permanent ferromagnet can
formally be decribed by a potential. This means that rot B
vanishes. This has as a consequence that a perpetuum mobile
acceleration of a magnetic charge is impossible.Therefore, the question  
arises whether there exists the
possibility to break this zero rot B - field. The question can be
answered positively.  Using by Mu metal shieldings a non zero rot
B field can be generated from a potential field by shielding off
the unwanted parts of the field . We illustrate this idea by the
following axial motor construction proposal which is derived by
us from the linear Harris TMI set up (4), comp. fig.3)+b), which
works and which has been confirmed and discussed by different
persons(4,5). We do not claim that our proposal is a perpetuum
mobile.
We use a cylindrical tube of Mu metal as housing for the motor.
In the housing tube we have a tube of lower diameter made from
conducting material having the same axis as the housing tube. A
current flows in the inner tube along the length equally
distributed across the thicknell of the wall.The common axis of both these  
cylinders consist of a wire
carrying a current flowing in the opposite direction relative to
the current tube. If we look at the configuration of the field we
have a circular non vanishing rot B field in one direction near
the wall and a circular B field in the opposite direction near
the central wire. Now we use the wire as an axis of a rotor which
carries at least two symmetrically balanced permanent magnets
rods whose north poles point radially and the south poles
axially. The north poles are standing under the influence of the
B field near the wall, the south pole feels the opposite field
near by the wire. So a permanent torque is exerted on the rotor
which begins to spin around the central wire as the axis. We see
that our motor works only with permanent fields and needs no
brushes.
Therefore, the question arises: Is it not possible to use
permanent magnets + Mu metal shields to replace the current wires
by permanent magnets generating circular non vanishing rot B
fields of opposite orientation to get the rotor spinning, comp.
fig.5a).  Similar constructions are already patented
and can be found in the literature (6), comp. fig. 5b).
Furthermore, we emphasize that until today there exist no
generally accepted magnetic force law between differential
current loops. Only for closed current loop the situation is
clear, because all the different differential form coincide in
one. Different forms have been proposed by Biot Savart (7),
Ampere (7) (includes actio and reactio and conservation of
angular momentum), Whittaker (8) (includes only action=reaction),
Aspden (7) (includes only conservation of angular momentum) , and
Marinov (9). Marinov claims that he would have proved
experimentally his form as the correct one. Therefore, there seems to be  
an interesting field where important
questions can be solved.

Bibliography:

1) Landau L.D., Lifshitz E.M.
   Electrodynamics of Continous Media
   Pergamon, Oxford, 1984

2) Wirtz D., Fuller G.G.  Phys.Rev.Lett.71, 2236, (1993)
   Debye P., Kleboth K. J.Chem.Phys.42, 3155, (1965)

3) Jackson,J.D.
   Classical Electrodynamics 2nd edition
   John Wiley, New York, 1975

4) Decker, J. BBS Keelynet PO-Box Mesquite Texas USA 75187
   Modem ..214 324 3501 Filename: TOMIBILD.ASC

   harti@shb.contrib.de    TMI device, free energy device ?
   24.2.95 in ALT.SCI.PHYSICS.NEW-THEORIES

5) anff@qvwp.demon.co.uk   TMI device, free energy device?
   26.2.95 in ALT.SCI.PHYSICS.NEW-THEORIES

   harti@shb.contrib.de    TMI + MRA updates, free energy
   25.2.95 in ALT.SCI.PHYSICS.NEW-THEORIES

   harti@shb.contrib.de    TOMI enhanced ! Free emergy device !
   31.3.95 in CL.ENERGY.ALTERNATIVEN

   prebys@puhep1.princeton.edu   TMI device, free energy device ?
   25.2.95 in SCI.ENERGY

6) Johnson, H.R. Permanent magnet motor  U.S.Patent No. 4.151.431
   Apr.24,1979

7) Aspden, Harold Physics without Einstein  Southampton 1969
   Aspden, Harold Modern Aether Physics     Southampton 1975

8) Whittaker, Edmund Sir
   A history of the theories of Aether and Electricity   Vol I  The  
classical theories
   Humanities Press  New York  1975

9) International Glasnost Journal of Fundamental Physics   Vol.3, No.11,  
Marinov, Stefan; p.18
_________________________________________________________________
Figures:

      ||                      ||                   ||
   |  ||  |                |======|             |  ||  |
   |======|                |      |             |======|
   |      |                |      |             |      |
   ---  ---                ---  ---             ---  ---
     |  |                    |  |                 |  |
     |  |---|                |--|-|               |--|-|
     |  |                    |  |                 |  |
   ---  ---                ---  ---             ---  ---
   |      |                |      |             |//////|
   |======|                |//////|             |======|
   |  ||  |                |======|             |  ||  |
      ||                      ||                   ||

      1                        2                    3


fig. 1a): Isothermal cycle of a simple fluid with irreversibility
1 starting a the dew line 1-2 expansion, condensation of liquid 2
separating volumes by closing the tap 2-3 recompression 3 opening
the tap, work has to be added to proceed the cycle

   P   ^     3 ._
   r   |       | |_
   e   |       |   |_
   s   |       |     |_ 3
   s   |     1 ._     |_
   u   |         |_     |<
   r   |           |__    |_
   e   |              |_>_  |__
       |                  |___.|
       |                        2
       |
       |
       |
       |
       |
       ----------------------------------------->
                                          Volume
fig. 1b): Isothermal cycle of a simple fluid with irreversibility
Pressure-volume diagram: 1 starting a the dew line 1-2 expansion,
condensation of liquid 2 separating volumes by closing the tap
2-3 recompression 3 opening the tap, work has to be added to
proceed the cycle

       ^
   P   |
   o   |
   l   |
   a   |
   r   |                          2
   i   |                   -------.
   s   |                __|   ____|
   a   |        1   _>_|  _<_|
   t   |        .__|   __|
   i   |        |   __|
   o   |        .__|
   n   |        3
       |
       |
       |
       ----------------------------------------->
                                   electric field




fig.2: isothermal cycle with electrically induced irreversibility
1 starting at the phase separation line with low field
1-2 applying a field 2 closing the tap 2-3 dicharging of the high
field 3 opening of the tap and returning to starting point 1A negative  
hysteresis is predicted according the Gibbs formalism.

                    _ _ _ _ _
       Top view  S |_|_|_|_|_| N   <--------moveable ROLLER magnet

 direction     S  |<--track-->|  N
 of ROLLER  ____________|____________
     |      |  ___|     |      |___  |
     |      | |___|  (start)   |___| |
     |      | |___|            |___| |        RUNNERS
     |      | |___|  incline   |___| <--------roll of magnets,positioned at
     |      | |___|            |___| |        the same angle as the slope of
     |      | |___|            |___| |        the incline
    \|/     | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|____________|___| |
            |  N  |            | S   |
            |     |   decline  |     |<-------no magnets here, but not as much
            |  S  |            | N   |        space between the rolls as shown
            |  ___|____________|___  |
            | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|  incline   |___| |
            | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|            |___| |
            | |___|____________|___| |
            |     |            |     |
            |  N  |   decline  | S   |
            |     |            |     |
            |     |____________|     |
            |        (finish)        |<-------ROLLER winds up here
            |________________________|




fig.3a) the TMI device, top view
the two magnets along the incline are stationary, the magnet in
the middle begins to roll standing under the influence of the
stationary magnets. It is drawn over the fulcrum. There it rolls
down under the influence of gravitation until it reaches the
bottom of the second hill.


Side view ! (enhanced version !)
===========


     ROLLER starts here
         \|/
          |     ----------------> direction of moveable magnetic ROLLER
          |     /\              /\
          |   /    \          /    \
          | /        \      /        \
          /            \  /            \
        /-------------- /  -------------- <--------Magnetic ROLLER ends up  
      /               /                            here



fig.3b) the TMI device, side view comp. textthe two magnets along the  
incline are stationary, the magnet in
the middle begins to roll standing under the influence of the
stationary magnets. It is drawn over the fulcrum. There it rolls
down under the influence of gravitation until it reaches the
bottom of the second hill.

                    ___________________________
                  /                             \
                /                                 \
 Mu metal     /                                     \
 housing    /                                         \
          /                                             \
        /                                                 \
      /                   _______________                   \
    /                   /    ------->     \                   \
   |       current    /      B-fields       \                  |
   |          tube  /           |             \                |
   |              /             |               \              |
   |             |    /---------|----------\     |             |
   |             |  / _______  <--  ________ \   |             |
   |             |  ||S     N| /-\ |N      S||   |             |
   |             |  ||_______| \-/ |________||   |             |
   |             |  \       axis wire        /   |             |
   |             |    \--------------------/     |             |
   |              \           rotor              /             |
   |               \                           /               |
   |                \          -->           /                 |
    \                 \ ___________________/                  /
      \                                                     /
        \                                                 /
          \                                             /
            \                                         /
              \                                     /
                \                                 /
                  \_____________________________/

fig.4 magnetic motor with no brushes; top view
the magnet charges on the rotor are spinning around the axis wire
in the stationary double circular and opposite rot B fields of
the wire and the current tube.

fig.5a) our magnetic motor proposal using only permanent magnetsthe  
central wire is replaced by an inner ring consisting of
permanent magnets and Mu metal shields generating an non
vanishing B-field; the current tube is replaced by an outer ring
of permanent magnets and Mu metal shields. the rotor is the same
as in fig. 4. The field configuration seen by the rotor is in
effect the same as in fig.4., only both the opposite non
vanishing rot B fields of the stator are generated by permanent
magnets. Unwanted parts of the field are shielded by Mu metal. It
is clear that the configuration can be multiplied to enforce the
power by taking more circles. Magnets similar as used by Johnson
are recommended for the stator fields, comp fig.5b). Using
electromagnets instead of permanent magnets would enhance power.

fig.5b) the Johnson motor, US Patent Nr. 4,151,431
permanent magnets as stator, rotor with non vanishing
rot B -field , see original patent


_________________________________________________________________
disclaimer regarding employer
Anti-Copyright  -  can be copied by everybody for nothing



From grscott@nc5.infi.net Fri Apr  7 11:36:54 EDT 1995
Article: 5975 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: grscott@nc5.infi.net
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: gravity
Date: 3 Apr 1995 03:10:21 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 79
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References: <3llj4d$542@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
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In <3llj4d$542@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>>Newtonian physics allows us to compute the mutual force between two objects
>>due to their gravitational attraction,
>
>True.
>
>>but one can also correctly speak of the energy
>>associated with an object due to its presence in a gravitational field.
>
>One can, if it has somewhere lower to go... I'd call that "gravitational
>energy," like "solar energy." But it is INcorrect to simply say "gravity 
>is energy." To most English speakers, especially those who are science-
>literate, gravity is a force, not an energy.
>
>>We're comfortable speaking of electric & magnetic fields: this is probably
>>the best way to discuss gravitation as well.
>
>Gravitational fields are useful to talk about, but neither electrical nor
>magnetic nor atomic nor gravitational fields are "energy." Energy has a very
>specific and mathematical meaning, in physics, the same as "work." Poets
>may say "energy is eternal delight." Mark Twain said "work is whatever
>a body is obliged to do," but alternate energists might usefully be more
>careful in their language. This is a technical subject, (as well as an art
>form and a peculiar expression of personal independence, in this country.)
>Such loose talk invites confusion and technical failure, and bespeaks of
>scientific ignorance.
>

I wrote because you had just lambasted someone who might have deserved it;
however, in so doing, you made a statement which I regard as incorrect as the
one he made.  In a Newtonian world, one can correctly speak of "force due to
gravitation" or "gravitational force", but to say gravity _is_ a force espouses
a position not generally held today [by English-speaking or otherwise] -- or for
that matter, not by Newton himself (as is fairly clear from his writings).

Classically, any object with mass has a gravitational field whose extent is 
infinite; therefore, any other object anywhere in the universe will acquire a 
potential energy by virtue of its presence in the field.  Clearly, this 
statement is different from saying that "gravity is energy", a position I did
not take (but see comment below).

Now life gets interesting.  Classical space and time were absolute; relativistic
space and time are not.   In fact, in the opening section of their tome simply 
entitled "Gravitation", heavyweight physicists Charles Misner, Kip Thorne, and
John Archibald Wheeler advise the reader to "forget all this talk about
'deflections' and 'force of gravitation'!"  Instead, again quoting a succinct 
passage upon which they elucidate in the the next 1200 or so pages, Einstein's
theory of relativity in a nutshell is as follows:

    (1)  Locally, geodesics appear straight.
    (2)  Over more extended regions of space and time, geodesics originally
           receding from each other begin to approach at a rate governed by 
           by the curvature of spacetime, and this effect of geometry on matter
           is what we mean by the old word, "gravitation".
    (3)   Matter in turn warps geometry.

You may be interested in reading Einstein's "The Foundation of the General 
Theory of Relativity", or perhaps just the opening sections, for further 
insight into the subject.  In particular, however, sections 14 - 18 discuss 
gravitation, matter, energy, and conservation laws thereof.   Emile Borel has
written, I believe, one of the better less mathematical treatments which covers
the essential concepts.


In closing, allow me to say that your posts have much to offer to this group; 
I'm pleased to say that I've learned from them (and hope to learn more in the 
future).   As a Ph.D-level physicist, I think I have a better grasp of physics
than the average bear; however, I'm still learning.  Your desire for precision 
in language is normally good, but your criticism of another was [I felt], off
target, on an admittedly very complex subject.  (When precision is difficult to
obtain, I sometimes fall back to mathematics.  But even in mathematics there is
jeopardy, for as Einstein also observed, "As far as the laws of mathematics 
refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do
not refer to reality.")

My limit is one post and one followup for a subject, and thus this is it!

Cheers... Richard



From ah892@detroit.freenet.org Fri Apr  7 11:36:56 EDT 1995
Article: 5976 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ah892@detroit.freenet.org (Michael A. Ketterman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: magazines on AE
Date: 3 Apr 1995 02:11:16 GMT
Organization: The Greater Detroit Free-Net
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Try 'Home Power' magazine. Published 6 times per year $15/year
subscription. P.O Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520. $20/year
international.  It is a hands on magazine with real applications
on small scale alternate energy systems and electric vehicles.

Hope this helps you out.
Mike.


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:36:57 EDT 1995
Article: 5978 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Phil Davis KD4BMQ <phil@W3EAX.UMD.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Whisper1000 tail failure
Message-ID: <29685.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 03:57:30 GMT
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Re: Whisper1000 tail failure                                                 R


From imadv8@eve.adam.com.au Fri Apr  7 11:36:58 EDT 1995
Article: 5979 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.alpha.net!uwm.edu!caen!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!eve.adam.com.au!eden.adam.com.au!eve.adam.com.au!imadv8
From: imadv8@eve.adam.com.au (jeff menzel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Bosch request
Date: 2 Apr 1995 14:48:18 GMT
Organization: ADAM Pty Ltd
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Hi,
 I'm a second year industrial design student in Adelaide South Australia 
and I am trying to research the Appliance manufacturing company Bosch. I 
have been able to get hold of some advertising brochures for some of 
their appliances soo far but I am interested in finding out much more 
about the ideals and practices of the company. As I live about 10,000 
miles away from the headquarters and I have only 3 weeks to prepare this 
report I thopught that a question posted on the 'net would probably get 
the attention of some helpful people. I am interested in researching the 
areas below, contact with anyone with experience working for the company 
would be an added bonus. 
Bosch present themselves as an environmentally responsive company - is 
this true?

Things I need to know.
Who are the major designers?
Where were they trained?
Who sets the environemtally conscious attitude?
Are there any other concessions to world best practices? Ie,
	Reduce and repair seem ok, what about reuse and recycle?
	Flexible management structure?
	Limited middle management structure?
	Enlightened manufacturing layouts?
	Employee empowerment?

Technical background..
	What sort of market share do they control?
	Turnover figures?
	Manufacturing plants? Where? How many?
	Background on the current CEO?
	Staff numbers?
	How multinational is Bosch?
	Subsidaries?
	Where do the profits go?
	How much outsourcing to SE-Asia  or 
	S.America or E.Europe does Bosch do?
	What did they produce in the past?
	What else do they produce now?

This list could probably be mostly filled by reference to one of their 
promotional brochures... Has anyone got one handy?
Rather than clutter up the newsgroup could you please E-mail me 
personally at the address below.
Thanks in advance,

Chris Hutchings

imadv8@adam.com.au

snail mail;

12 Peppermint Grove
Noarlunga Downs
South Australia
5168



From jdekock@mattek.csir.co.za Fri Apr  7 11:37:00 EDT 1995
Article: 5980 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!quagga.ru.ac.za!wabe.csir.co.za!mattek.csir.co.za!jdekock
From: jdekock@mattek.csir.co.za (Jean-Pierre de Kock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: HELP South African Rural Development
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:32:25 GMT
Organization: CSIR
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <jdekock.3.2F815879@mattek.csir.co.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.64.116.19
Summary: Internet news groups??
Keywords: Renewable, Energy, Apropriate technology.
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi
I'm new to the net so please be gentle.
I work for an R&D Organisation (CSIR) in Pretoria (Gauteng Province) South 
Africa. The programme which I work for is presently working on development 
projects based primarily in rural areas and using "green" technologies to 
address the energy and development needs of these disadvantage communities.

Our present projects include:
Photo voltaic water pumping
Wind farming
Mini and Micro hydro systems
Biomass/biogas energy
Solar stills
etc etc.

Does anyone have a list of internet news groups which deal with these or 
related subjects which could be forwarded to me. 
Your help would be much appreciated.
Thanx
Jean-Pierre de Kock


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:01 EDT 1995
Article: 5981 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "James W. Swonger" <jws@mlb.semi.harris.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar thermal panels / heat pumps
Message-ID: <19393.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:54:16 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 19
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X-Status: 

 The reason to use a heat pump in conjunction with solar thermal collectors
is to produce a higher temperature from the low grade heat obtained.
A solar panel producing 150F air in large volume could be the "cold side"
for a heat pump, that heat pump could "charge" a heat battery at 300F or
higher. Such temperatures could only be obtained by using concentrator
collector systems with attendant inefficiencies of their own.

  By storing heat at a higher temperature you would gain compactness,
the potential to use a phase change medium, and the potential to use
the heat battery for things requring high grade heat energy like steam
production/distillation or absorbtion cycle refrigeration. A heat pump
being the thermal equivalent of a transformer, you are accepting some
inefficiency in order to gain a more locally useful heat/temperature
combination.

  If the panel is a forced air ducted collector, then the long plumbing
will be relatively cheap and leak-insensitive, and the heat pump can be a
remote, physically compact and robust unit.
Solar thermal panels / heat pumps


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:02 EDT 1995
Article: 5982 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Tom Gray <tgray@IGC.APC.ORG>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jeffords-Wellstone Amendment
Message-ID: <19720.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:00:40 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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X-Status: 

JEFFORDS AND WELLSTONE WILL OFFER AMENDMENT
TO SHIFT FUNDS FROM NUCLEAR FISSION TO RENEWABLES

The U.S. Senate is currently debating a "rescission" (pronounced like
"recision") bill, which would cut current year spending (that is, funds
previously approved by Congress) for a number of government programs.

The bill proposes to cut renewable energy research and development (R&D)
funding by $35 million, while making smaller cuts in fossil and nuclear
fusion R&D and no reductions at all in nuclear fission R&D.

We expect an amendment to be offered by Senators Jeffords (R-VT) and
Wellstone (D-MN) that would shift $14 million from nuclear fission R&D
to renewable energy programs.  This would result in the final Senate
rescissions package containing the following funding levels (all numbers
in millions) for the current year, which is called Fiscal Year 1995 or
FY '95 in government lingo):

                             Proposed
                    FY'95   Rescission   Amendment     %Cut
                                                    (If Amended)
Renewable Energy    $417.8    -$35        +$14         5.0%
Energy Efficiency   $770.8    -$49                     6.4%
Fossil Energy       $441.8    -$21                     4.8%
Nuclear Fusion      $368.4    -$15                     4.1%
Nuclear Fission     $811.4    -$0         -$14         1.7%

The Jeffords-Wellstone amendment has attracted a number of cosponsors,
including Senators Campbell (R-CO), Chafee (R-RI), Daschle (D-SD),
Harkin (D-IA), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Leahy (D-VT) and Roth (R-DE).
If your Senator is among this list, please call and thank them for
cosponsoring the amendment.

Please call your Senators as soon as possible at (202) 224-3121 and urge
them to vote YES on the Jeffords-Wellstone Renewable Energy Amendment to
shift $14 million from nuclear fission to renewable energy.

Possible talking points:

- The renewable energy industries are new and very small.  Government
funding for research is more justifiable than for the nuclear industry,
which is large and mature.

- If government spending has to be reduced, the renewable energy
industries are willing to take their share of cuts along with everyone
else.  As the table above shows, even if the Jeffords-Wellstone
amendment is passed, renewables will be suffer a larger percentage
reduction than nuclear.

For more information, contact Jared Barlage at (202) 383-2507 or Michael
Marvin at (202) 383-2506.

Jeffords-Wellstone Amendment


From creator@ionet.net Fri Apr  7 11:37:03 EDT 1995
Article: 5983 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!ionews.ionet.net!news
From: creator@ionet.net (David Gaddis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SURVEY of intelligent homes, Thanks and Pardons
Date: 4 Apr 1995 15:11:32 GMT
Organization: Home Systems Network
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3lrnj4$qsq@ionews.ionet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: osip29.ionet.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.10
Status: O
X-Status: 

On April 1, we posted an article to this newsgroup which requested 
participation in a survey.  This survey was designed to identify the 
types of people which are involved or interested in the industry known
as "smart houses" or "intelligent homes".

We have experienced a good response, and we would like to thank those 
which have taken their time to participate.  The results will be posted
by the middle of April, and you are welcome to them.  The results will be 
posted on the same page beneath the survey, at:
http://www.ionet.net/hsn/hsnform.html

We also received a few Flames from individuals which confused this with
a commercial or marketing effort.  To those individuals, we would like
to extend our appologies, and provide the following information.

There is no commercial motivation for the survey.  Although some 
businesses may conduct similar surveys and sell the resulting
information, we are posting these results for free access to all Internet
users.  The survey is ananymous, and no attempt is made to identify the
respondents, nor market any goods to them.

Our only motivation is to acquire information which can be used for
educational as well as commercial uses (we do not police how the viewer
uses the results).

We choose a couple of dozen groups (out of thousands), from which we 
value the opinions and responses of the members, and our choice included
this group.

On behalf of the thousands of Internet viewers which are benefiting from
this effort, we would appreciate your understanding, and pardons if you
still don't appreciate our efforts.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:05 EDT 1995
Article: 5984 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Paul Gipe <pgipe@igc.apc.org>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: windy in Abilene....
Message-ID: <7346.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:45:15 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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X-Status: 

Marge Wood <mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU> writes

>Does anyone know if the proposed vertical axis wind turbine was ever
>built in the Texas Panhandle?  I know there is supposed to be some sort
>of study going on up there about wind.  I've been doing a keyword search
>and not finding what I'm going after.

Yes, it was installed several years ago. However, it's experimental and is
run only for tests. For reports on working wind turbines talk to Nolan
Clark at the USDA's Bushland experiment station and Vaughn Nelson at the
Alternative Energy Institute at WTSU in Canyon. Both know their stuff and
speak in plain English. Most of my knowledge about the fundamentals of wind
energy was gleaned from a term working with them.

Paul Gipe
Paul Gipe & Assoc.; 208 S. Green St., #5; Tehachapi, CA 93561;
ph: +805 822 9150; fax: +805 822 8452; pgipe@igc.apc.org/pgipe@mcimail.com

Author of "Wind Power for Home & Business" (Post Mills VT: Chelsea Green
Publishing, June, 1993), and "Wind Energy Comes of Age" (New York: John
Wiley & Sons, March, 1995).
Re: windy in Abilene....


From cvisser@math.ucr.edu Fri Apr  7 11:37:07 EDT 1995
Article: 5985 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" <dodeca!clyde@math.ucr.edu>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CEPEL solicitation (fwd)
Message-ID: <7610.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:47:24 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: "Clyde R. Visser, KD6GWN" <cvisser@math.ucr.edu>
Lines: 48
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 3 Apr 1995 08:23:35 +0000, "Mauricio Moszkowicz" <moszko@fund.cepel.br>
 wrote:

> Dear M Visser,
>
> CEPEL - Electrical Energy Research Center - is carring out several
> projects of electrification for rural and isolated areas. There are almost
> 2000 installations that will be under operation by the end of this year
> (1000 of them are already successfully operating since last year).
>
> A large program in the area of RE was launched last year in Brazil to
> provide electricity to those communities situated far from the grid.
>
> The RE are resources that can bring an important contribution for the
> sustainable development, mainly, of the Northern Regions of Brazil.
> Solar, Wind and Biomass present the major government interest, due to
> their abundance in some of the country's regions.
>
> To spread out such technologies and their applications we are preparing an
> International Seminar that will be held in Brasilia from June 6 to 9, with
> more than 500 participants including national and international industries,
> research centers, universities and utilities.
>
> The Seminar will count on an internal exposition where the industry will
> show their equipment and one open site area for practical demonstration of
> Solar, Wind and Biomass applications for energy generation. An "Off
> Grid" house will be presented including water pumping system, public
> illumination, etc. We will also have a vegetable oil motor beside an alcohol
> motor propelled bus.
>
> Besides the practical technologies presentation we will have some
> universities stands and educational group oriented for the primary and
> secondary students. The solar stoves will have the opportunities to
> be presented, demonstrating the technologies and motivating the public
> opinion in this type of application.
>
> We would appreciate in having you presenting your equipment during the
> demonstration. We also would like to know about your interest in
> participating.
>
> Best regards
>
> Mauricio
> Mauricio Moszkovics
> e-mail:moszko@fund.cepel.br

crv
CEPEL solicitation (fwd)


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:10 EDT 1995
Article: 5986 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Robert Chisick (Volt Computer)" <a-robtch@microsoft.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FW: Creating a New Civilzation
Message-ID: <8869.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:06:27 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 121
Status: O
X-Status: 

Found on the internet.

*************************************
I just finished reading "Creating a New Civilization - The Politics of the
Third Wave" by Alvin and Heidi Toffler.

I just found it in the bookstore last week and I think it just came out.

It has a foreword by Newt Gingrich and he has been waving it in front of
the U.S, Congress, insisting that everybody read it, from what I
understand, which in itself should be about enough to make it a best
seller.

I am not exactly a republican and didn't have any favourable impression of
Newt Gingrich, but this forces me to reevaluate my opinion a bit.

This is a quite subversive and revolutionary book, actually, predicting a
total change of society as we have known it, and the breakdown of most
traditional power structures, to be replaced by something new.

Toffler has written about what he calls the "Third Wave" before, and this
is for that matter merely a further elaboration. But it is putting it in a
context that makes it hit home very well.

The First Wave was the agricultural society. The Second Wave was the
industrial revolution. The Third Wave is the information society.

The Second Wave is symbolized by the factory model. Everything is
mass-produced by centralized, hierarchical, bureaucratic institutions.

Most of our known ways of manufacturing things, of education, of finance,
and of government, are based on Second Wave principles. We have centralized
governments that try to make rules for everything and run things from one
place. We send our kids to learning factories where they are all treated
the same and spit out as standardized products.

The Third Wave is unavoidably upon us. It is driven in part by the
increased speed of everything, the increased inter-connectedness, and vast
amounts of information. Information is increasingly becoming more important
than physical goods.

Second Wave institutions are failing to keep up with Third Wave society.
Governments and centralized mega-corporations and educational institutions
and mass-media are largely unable to keep up with the speed things are
developing at. And to that degree they are failing.

Third wave is represented by smaller teams, flexibility and ability to
change, reduction of overhead, just-in-time principles.

2nd Wave institutions will not voluntarily give up control, even when they
are failing to deliver what is needed. There is therefore a struggle
between 2nd and 3rd Wave institutions, which 3rd Wave will unescapably win
in the end.

In 2nd Wave politics there was the idea of the "majority". If we let the
most people choose some representatives and we let them make rules that
apply to most people, then things will stay pretty well organized and
acceptable.

In the 3rd Wave there is no longer any meaningful "majority". Society is
increasingly divided into special interest groups. There is a large number
of minorities, rather than one majority. And hardly anybody really like
what the governments are doing.

2nd Wave politicians try to undo the change and turn the clock back. If we
can just all have good, decent family values and we can protect the
production facilities of the country, and we spend more money on education,
then everything will be alright.

Mass media are increasingly unable to show what is really going on. They
will mostly give the 2nd wave story, showing us what the centralized power
figures are doing and saying. But that is no longer what matters the most.

It is no longer possible to uphold the illusion of political parties having
clear agendas you can count on. The divisions between political parties,
what is left and right and so forth no longer make much sense.

In the former Soviet Union the Communists are now called "conservatives".
We can no longer classify things in the usual simplistic ways.

2nd Wave economy was based on finite exhaustible outputs. We were talking
about physical goods that took raw materials to make and that had a
tangible permanence to them.

Information, which is the life blood of the 3rd wave, doesn't work by the
same rules. You can use one piece of information any number of times
without depreciating its value. You can not treat it the same as a tangible
product from a factory.

The 3rd Wave and the 2nd Wave are colliding right now. That creates a
considerable amount of chaos and uncertainty and trauma. But there is no
doubt that the 3rd wave will win.

Many people still operate by 2nd wave principles in their own lives. If you
expect that you can just get a good secure job, a nice middle-class house
and car, send your kids to college, and just settle back and wait for
retirement, that ain't gonna work very well anymore.

In the 3rd wave you need to be flexible, ready for change, always learning,
developing your abilities, continuously creating your own opportunities.
You can not expect that some centralized institution is going to do it for
you. You will need to keep up to date with what is going on.

It is of great value to be able to recognize the difference between 2nd and
3rd wave, to know what horse to bet on. Simply put, if it looks like a
factory it is 2nd Wave and it is on its way out. If the solutions proposed
are about the "masses", if they put all eggs in one basket, if they are
vertically, hiearchically controlled, then they are 2nd Wave and they are
going to lose out.

3rd Wave solutions are de-centralized, de-massified, diversified, virtual
organizations with distributed decision making.

Also, 3rd Wave organization re-empowers the home. The idea of us all
driving off to centralized locations to work, be educated, etc, is 2nd
wave. The 3rd Wave is more about working and learning where it makes most
sense, or where you are most comfortable or productive. There will often be
more reason to stay home than to drive off to work.

**************************
FW: Creating a New Civilzation


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:12 EDT 1995
Article: 5987 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@ATUVM.ATU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!newshost.marcam.com!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Soy oil as diesel fuel
Message-ID: <24084.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:10:46 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 1201
Status: O
X-Status: 

>I was wondering what is the current status of using soybean (or other
>vegetable oils) as diesel fuel?  There seemed to be a big push for it
>a few years ago.  Is this still going on, or have there been some
>stumbling blocks pop up lately.
>
>ross wilcoxon
>
>Soy oil as diesel fuel
=======================================================MON NOV 28, 1994 07.35.58
Hi,
  My name is Rhi-Kao Chang. I has recently done my dissertation defense.
The title of dissertation is " AN ANALYSIS OF ECONOMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACTS OF USING BIODIESEL IN THE KANSAS CITY METROPOLITAN AREA ".
 Attached message shows references of the thesis.
                                        Thank you.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Biodiesel
=======================================================MON DEC 05, 1994 11.27.24
Hi,
  My name is Rhi-Kao Chang. I has recently done my dissertation defense.
The title of dissertation is " AN ANALYSIS OF ECONOMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACTS OF USING BIODIESEL IN THE KANSAS CITY METROPOLITAN AREA ".
 Attached message shows references of the thesis.
                                        Thank you.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Biodiesel
Re: Soy oil as diesel fuel                                                   R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:15 EDT 1995
Article: 5988 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Kerry Miller <ASTINGSH%KSUVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Science, III
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:23:07 GMT
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Researchers Alarmed By Reports Of Public's Lack Of Scientific Knowledge
by Karen Young Kreeger

A recent survey by the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH)
in New York confirms what scientists across the United States have
been fearing for some time: Despite their professed interest and
confidence in science, Americans' understanding of the natural and
physical world remains disturbingly low.
 Researchers say that it is imperative to the future of the nation that this
situation be reversed. "However you cut it, you become alarmed." says
Bonnie Kalberer, director of the National Institutes of Health's office
of science education. "Every day, people are having to deal more and
more with scientific, technical, and mathematical issues. And, if they're
not prepared for that, one could say your whole democratic system is in
jeopardy."
 To counter what they perceive as a dangerous level of ignorance,
scientists interviewed for this article say, they must mobilize
themselves to make people smarter about science, especially young
people, who will be responsible for shaping society in the next century.
One of these scientists, Paul Saltman, a professor of biology at the
University of California, San Diego, who is involved in training San
Diego-area teachers in science, says: "My position is one of fighting. I
can't sit still for this."
 "The whole notion," says Saltman, "becomes: `How do we start to
create an environment for it to be cool and for it to be fun to know
science?' We have to take into account this knowledge [about scientific
ignorance] and do something about it."

========
The AMNH study -- entitled "Science and Nature Survey" and released
in late April -- consisted of telephone interviews with 1,255 adults
from across the United States. Respondents were asked a series of
multiple-choice and true-false questions to gauge how they feel about
science and to measure the level of their understanding in disciplines,
such as evolution, that coincide with the museum's mission. According
to museum officials, figures for age, sex, race, education, and number
of adults per household were weighted where necessary -- using data
from the latest U.S. Census -- to bring them into line with their actual
proportions in the overall population. The study points out, among other
things, the following statistics, which the survey designers find
particularly dismaying:

* 46 percent of respondents do not believe that humans
     evolved from earlier species of animals;

* 65 percent don't know how many planets there are in the
     solar system;

* 87 percent cannot identify the cause of the hole in the
     ozone layer.

 Other recent surveys concur with these findings.
 Science & Engineering Indicators (National Science
 Board,  NSB 93-1) revealed, for example, that:

* 41 percent of respondents do not believe that "Human
     beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier
     species of animals";

* 41 percent do not know that DNA regulates inherited
     characteristics for all plants and animals;

* 92 percent cannot correctly identify the causes of acid
     rain.

Although no observer contacted denies that such revelations are
distressing, Mary Woolley, president of Alexandria, Va.-based
Research!America -- a nonprofit medical-research advocacy
organization--says capitalizing on the public's high opinion of science
should be paramount. "The attitudes are positive, the interest is there,"
says Woolley, "but we're not exploiting it in a manner that will really
pay off for us.  "Scientists tend to be invisible in their neighborhoods as
scientists. We need to get out there. Scientists have the opportunity to
describe to the public how it is that their dollar goes to something that
we already know they value."

========
Paradoxical Findings
In a statement, Ellen V. Futter museum president, said the results of the
recent museum survey show that the public has "an acute recognition of
the importance of science and a healthy respect for the potential
negative consequences and abuse of scientific research."
 However, the science literacy portion of the AMNH study found that
the public has an almost "paradoxical" -- as Futter put it -- view of some
subjects, demonstrating misconceptions about some things and a
relatively clear understanding of others.
 "We were surprised with some of the contrasts, such as how so many
people knew that continents gradually move over millions of years. But
more than one-third believed that humans and dinosaurs lived at the
same time," says David Grimaldi, curator of entomology at AMNH and
codeveloper of its survey. Specifically, 35 percent said that the earliest
humans lived at the same time as the dinosaurs and 78 percent said they
believed that the statement that continents gradually change their
positions was true.
 Findings from the AMNH study are expected to be used primarily for
designing museum programs, but researchers and educators anticipate
they will also be helpful to people outside AMNH. Futter said the
survey results will be used for a range of activities, "from conceiving
and designing new exhibits to developing innovative educational
programs for application within and without our walls, to informing the
public about the results of the often cutting-edge research of our
scientific staff."
 Grimaldi adds: "We don't see the survey as setting an agenda for our
research, but it reveals what the populace expects or is concerned about
in science." For example, he says, there was stronger support for and
interest in environmental issues than expected (22 percent; see chart on
page 1), so he anticipates more rigorous informal science education
programs on such subjects as biodiversity as a result.
 Research!America's Woolley adds that information from the AMNH
survey will be useful in fashioning her organization's fledgling
educational outreach program -- to be conducted in partnership with
AMNH -- in New York City.
...
 According to the Science
Indicators, only one out of every 10 adults considered himself or
herself well-informed about new scientific discoveries or the use of
new inventions and technologies. The AMNH study found similar
attitudes among its interviewees: 51 percent agreed with the statement
"I understand less and less of what scientists are doing today." At the
same time, however, 68 percent agreed with the statement "Science will
solve many of the world's problems."
 "The point of all of this is that science is perceived as remote from and
inaccessible to nonscientists. Science is not for experts only," said
Futter.
 A survey sponsored by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, North
Carolina State University, and Colorado State University (T.J. Hoban,
P.A. Kendall, #91-EXCA-3-0155, 1993) found another dichotomy: 86
percent of the respondents agreed with the statement "Most problems
can be solved by applying more and better technology," whereas 58
percent agreed with the statement "Science and technology have made
the world a riskier place to live."
 Thomas J. Hoban, an associate professor of sociology and
anthropology at North Carolina State University in Raleigh and
coauthor of the USDA study, characterizes this seemingly conflicting
result as the public's "love-hate" relationship with science. "The public
recognizes many of the benefits that science and technology have given
us, but at the same time they are very fearful of environmental and
health impacts of new technologies and related ethical issues," he says.
 Some researchers, however, say that in contrast to the relatively large
body of work on people's attitudes and understanding, too little effort
has been spent on ascertaining what people know about the scientific
method. Bruce Fuchs, an assistant professor of pharmacology at the
Medical College of Virginia, Richmond, who is on a two-year
appointment with NIH's office of science education policy, says, "One
thing that does concern me -- and I don't see this survey getting at this -
- is that I think people really need to understand the process of science
rather than some of these facts." He adds that this kind of knowledge is
important so people can put what they read about scientific
controversies "into some perspective."
...

Reprinted without permission from "The Scientist," Vol:8, #13,27/6/94
Science, III


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:17 EDT 1995
Article: 5989 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Harry H Conover <conover@MAX.TIAC.NET>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alpha Lee's Latest...
Message-ID: <10625.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:36:23 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Thanks for saying this.  It's true!    :-)

                                               Harry C.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <8031.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> you wrote:
: On Sat, 1 Apr 1995, Lee Butler wrote:

: > >Lee Butler  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
: > >
: > My track record makes liers our of you and since you have no comments which
: > are worth hearing, you ignore me because tht is safe. If you discussed the
: > broader issues logically and intelligently, you would open yourself up to
: > the stupid juvenile rantings that have only been directed at me.

: Hmm, I hate leaving non-technical messages but...

: The reason people ignore you and cast scorn at you is because you TALK
: LIKE A HIPPY.

:  * HIPPIES NEED, AT BEST, NEED A REALITY CHECK *


: If you want more people to listen, cut the pseudo-Eastern hippy crap
: thing and talk like you know what day it is.


:    "Just a suggestion. "


:   Regards,

:         Mick.

: Re: Alpha Lee's Latest...                                                    R
Re: Alpha Lee's Latest...


From wilcoxon@me.umn.edu Fri Apr  7 11:37:18 EDT 1995
Article: 5990 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!mr.net!umn.edu!wilcoxon
From: wilcoxon@me.umn.edu (Ross Wilcoxon (PS))
Subject: Soy oil as diesel fuel
Message-ID: <wilcoxon.796929941@me.umn.edu>
Sender: news@news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration)
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Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:25:41 GMT
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I was wondering what is the current status of using soybean (or other
vegetable oils) as diesel fuel?  There seemed to be a big push for it
a few years ago.  Is this still going on, or have there been some 
stumbling blocks pop up lately.

ross wilcoxon


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:19 EDT 1995
Article: 5991 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Larry Lyons <advanced@IX.NETCOM.COM>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
Message-ID: <11764.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:55:05 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

You wrote:

>
>In article <3l95dr$mv@steel.interlog.com>, drmudie@interlog.com says:
>
>>I have the 1-800 number for AAA Solar, but it does not seem to be
>>set up for Canada.
>>
>>Does anybody know their regular phone number.
>
>(505) 243-3212
>
>Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
>
 AAA SOLAR INC  230 LAUREL AVE  BREA CA 92621  (714) 961-0133



Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA


From erkyrath+@CMU.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:21 EDT 1995
Article: 5992 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!newshost.marcam.com!news.kei.com!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!cornellcs!rochester!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+
From: "Andrew C. Plotkin" <erkyrath+@CMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Date: Tue,  4 Apr 1995 12:42:04 -0400
Organization: Information Technology Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <YjULPQS00gpI8Vs5Yi@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de>
	<18$VlS6KR1lK079yn@gate.net>
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> Well, I have worked together with the inventor and another "magnet freak"
> during this weekend on the design and we found the solution how to power a  
> motor just via using Permanent Magnets !

(And more description, with an exclamation point at the end of every
single paragraph.)

You're a fool too.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."


From jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu Fri Apr  7 11:37:22 EDT 1995
Article: 5993 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu (John Kondis)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Date: 4 Apr 95 22:19:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <jkondis.797033941@orion.oac.uci.edu>
References: <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de> <18$VlS6KR1lK079yn@gate.net>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

>In article <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de>,
>harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann) wrote:
>> PM_Square: The new free energy generation device !
>> ==================================================

Hey!  What was wrong with the old one!?!  :-)

...John
    .   |     . |                      .     .   | |             |  .
___oooooOOOOooooOoooooooo_____________ooooooOOOOOOOOOoo______ooooOOooooo__
John Kondis        University of California, Irvine        jkondis@uci.edu
God made the bulk; surfaces were invented by the devil.  -- Wolfgang Pauli



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:24 EDT 1995
Article: 5994 of alt.energy.renewable
From: gb52 <Gwendolyn_ANDERSEN@UMAIL.UMD.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gmi!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: HELP South African Rural Development
Message-ID: <27711.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:04:10 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 39
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>Hi
>I'm new to the net so please be gentle.
>I work for an R&D Organisation (CSIR) in Pretoria (Gauteng Province) South
>Africa. The programme which I work for is presently working on development
>projects based primarily in rural areas and using "green" technologies to
>address the energy and development needs of these disadvantage communities.
>
>Our present projects include:
>Photo voltaic water pumping
>Wind farming
>Mini and Micro hydro systems
>Biomass/biogas energy
>Solar stills
>etc etc.
>
>Does anyone have a list of internet news groups which deal with these or
>related subjects which could be forwarded to me.
>Your help would be much appreciated.
>Thanx
>Jean-Pierre de Kock
>
>HELP South African Rural Development
>
Hello.  One of my former clients is the Solar Electric Light Fund,
Washington, D.C.
They don't operate a true mailing list, but rather use the internet to send
out press releases and updates on their activities.
If you would like to be on the list, let them know by sending a message to
solarlectric@igc.apc.org
You can even let them know I sent you.
Could you send me some information about your organization?
Sincerely, Gwen Andersen
----------------
Gwendolyn S. Andersen            Specializing in Third World Development
Andersen Research & Fundraising                  Environment
PH:  301-588-2847                                Renewable Energy and
Fax: 301-588-9059                                Online Communication.
gwendolyn.andersen@glib.org>
Re: HELP South African Rural Development                                     R


From mms@aretha.jax.org Fri Apr  7 11:37:25 EDT 1995
Article: 5995 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Malcolm Sanders <malcolm@ARETHA.JAX.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Better energy conservation
Message-ID: <15404.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:55:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: mms@aretha.jax.org
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Chris Holder states:
>
> It is a waste of energy (and of course, the money you pay for
> it) to heat water only to cool it down by adding cold water. ...

I'm not sure this is strictly true.  Let's say I have one hundred
pounds of water at 50 deg. F that I want to heat to 120 deg. F.  I
could heat the whole amount by adding (120 - 50 deg F) * ( 100 lbs )
* ( 1 Btu/deg. F/lb) = 7000 Btu of energy.  On the other hand, I
could take the same 7000 Btu and heat just 50 lbs of the water to
190 deg F.  If I then mixed the 50 lbs of 190 deg F water with the
50 lbs of 50 deg F water, the result would be 100 lbs of water at
120 deg F.

( If my use of English units offends anyone, let me apologize in
advance.)

-Malcolm Sanders
mms@jax.org

Re: Better energy conservation


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:26 EDT 1995
Article: 5996 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: New Usenet group alt.energy.parascience?
Message-ID: <hatunenD6IsnD.My0@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <farntz-0304951050570001@diffract.eotc.tufts.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:02:00 GMT
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Sender: hatunen@netcom5.netcom.com
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In article <farntz-0304951050570001@diffract.eotc.tufts.edu>,
F. Arntz <farntz@pearl.tufts.edu> wrote:
>How about forming a new group alt.energy.parascience dedicated to free
>energy devices,  such as TMI, PM-motors that run without power input and
>other such things?  Then the unenlightened who solely subscribe to
>alt.energy.renewable will continue on blissfully in their ignorance until
>its too late.

Do you really think you can keep it a secret from us?



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From lmorse@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:28 EDT 1995
Article: 5997 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!lmorse
From: lmorse@netcom.com (Lee Morse)
Subject: DC to AC Inverters
Message-ID: <lmorseD6H429.Jz6@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:13:20 GMT
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Sender: lmorse@netcom19.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Can anyone class the many DC to AC inverters on the market today?

I am planning a 4 to 8 kW PV site, and I need a pure sine wave 240 Volt
output inverter.

Any specs would be great!

Thanks in advance,

Lee Morse (BD-14 virtual pilot)



From m.crawford@dcs.shef.ac.uk Fri Apr  7 11:37:29 EDT 1995
Article: 5998 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!warwick!news.shef.ac.uk!not-for-mail
From: mmalcolm Crawford <m.crawford@dcs.shef.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: max wind speed for turbines
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:33:11 GMT
Organization: Institute for Language Speech and Hearing, Sheffield University
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <950403203311.417AACUc.malc@daneel>
Reply-To: mmalcolm Crawford <m.crawford@dcs.shef.ac.uk>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Are there any turbines yet developed which will cope (i.e. generate
electricity) in wind speeds of, say, 70-100 mph?  A colleague from
California lives in an area where when they get wind, they really get
wind...

Email responses appreciated, as would be pointers to information sources
(though I've browsed many of the relevant WWW sites).

Have fun,

mmalc.

posn.	research facilitator
where	institute for language speech and hearing
	sheffield university
	c/o department of computer science
	regent court
	211 portobello street
	sheffield s1 4dp
	england

vox	(+44) 114 282 5594
fax	(+44) 114 278 0972
email	m.crawford@dcs.shef.ac.uk
	NeXTMail, SunMail, MIME welcome
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:30 EDT 1995
Article: 5999 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Chuck Marken <aaasolar@RT66.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
Message-ID: <29499.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:37:49 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <11764.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Larry Lyons <advanced@IX.N
ETCOM.COM> writes:
>From: Larry Lyons <advanced@IX.NETCOM.COM>
>Subject: Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:55:05 GMT

>You wrote:

>>
>>In article <3l95dr$mv@steel.interlog.com>, drmudie@interlog.com says:
>>
>>>I have the 1-800 number for AAA Solar, but it does not seem to be
>>>set up for Canada.
>>>
>>>Does anybody know their regular phone number.
>>
>>(505) 243-3212
>>
>>Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
>>
> AAA SOLAR INC  230 LAUREL AVE  BREA CA 92621  (714) 961-0133



>Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA
>AAA Solar Service and Supply Inc., (505) 243-3212, Publishers of the "Solar
Design Catalog" for do-it-yourselfers. builders and designers. Will send
catalog if you request at  "aaasolar@rt66.com" attn. Chuck

Re: Need non 1-800 number for AAA


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:32 EDT 1995
Article: 6000 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Marge Wood <mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Texas wind
Message-ID: <19658.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:10:09 GMT
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Hi guys. I just chatted with Ken Starcher at West Texas A&M, in Canyon,
Texas.  He and Dr. Vaughan Nelson can be reached at AEI@WTAMU.EDU for
up to date information on wind energy in Texas. He also highly recommends
the home page for solstice.crest.org--says it is full of good information
about renewables in Texas.  He says they will send out speakers laden with
brochures to the Panhandle area.  I'll take my handy little AWEA video to
the area immediately around Abilene for civic or school groups.  I'm a little
nervous about this, but if the group has a video player that works, guess
it will go okay!  We can talk about it....
Marge
Texas wind


From dewittm@cadvision.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6001 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!sunserver.insinc.net!huey.cadvision.com!cad67
From: dewittm@cadvision.com (Mark DeWitt)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Soy oil as diesel fuel
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 95 17:24:05 GMT
Organization: Lacking
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wilcoxon@me.umn.edu (Ross Wilcoxon (PS)) wrote:
>I was wondering what is the current status of using soybean (or other
>vegetable oils) as diesel fuel?  There seemed to be a big push for it
>a few years ago.  Is this still going on, or have there been some
>stumbling blocks pop up lately.
>

Was the push for a total replacement of diesel fuel with soybean
oil, or was the soybean fuel used as a supplement?  I am curous
about the cetane number of the soy fuel, ie would it ignite
properly.
  I recently did a research project on alternative fuels in diesel
 engines.  While I concentrated on gaseous fuels, I did not come
across any recent work on using liquid bio-fuels in engines.  Most
of the work tends to centre around natural gas or methanol.


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6002 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Cyberberus <Cyberberus@psl.org>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Reflective Surface Needed
Message-ID: <21656.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:41:02 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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> From: tcupp (Terry Cupp)
>
>   I am in the process of making a 10' parabolic mirror out of an old satilite
>   dish.  I have found some reflective silver plastic which works well for a
>   while, however after a few months the sun fades and cracks this material.
>   Does anyone know of a flexable material that would hold up to the sun for a
>   longer period of time.  I live in Las Vegas so the material will be exposed
>   to alot of summer dry heat.

  Check out the reflective mylar sold at indoor garden places.  It *is*
humidity sensitive but I found that if you sandwich it between 2 pieces
of plastic (I use 1/16 LEXAN on sun side and 1/16 plexiglas on back) and
seal the edges that it holds up quite nicely, at least here in Michigan.
I use a V channel of this with black plastic pipe as a passive hydroponic
solution heater in the winter.

Re: Reflective Surface Needed                                                R


From baker@nucst11.neep.wisc.edu Fri Apr  7 11:37:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6004 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!nucst11.neep.wisc.edu!baker
From: baker@nucst11.neep.wisc.edu (Mike Baker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: World Energy Demand
Date: 3 Apr 1995 22:27:18 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison; College of Engineering
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3lpso6$16na@news.doit.wisc.edu>
References: <3lpj48$ofg@maggie.austin.wireline.slb.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nucst11.neep.wisc.edu
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In article <3lpj48$ofg@maggie.austin.wireline.slb.com> Scott Guthery <guthery@slb.com> writes:
>Is there a server somewhere that carries up-to-date data
>on world energy demand?
>
>Thanks, Scott
>

I think you can get this type of information from the Energy Information
Agency (a part of the Department of Energy). Try fedworld, I think they're
are http://www.fedworld.gov/


-- 
===================================================================================
		  Michael Baker ... baker@nucst11.neep.wisc.edu
===================================================================================



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6005 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Gary Beckwith <garyb@EFN.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: DC Appliances
Message-ID: <3014.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 23:40:38 GMT
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Jenny,

Call Real Goods at 800-762-7325, or email at realgood@well.com

They publish the Solar Living Sourcebook, which contains the most
complete source of DC appliances available.  FYI, a solar house doesn't
have to be just DC, because there are now inverters which convert DC to
AC at 90+% efficiency.
Re: DC Appliances


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6006 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electrolysis as an energy source ??
Message-ID: <hatunenD6MD1o.279@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <95Apr6.095435edt.41266@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:15:24 GMT
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Sender: hatunen@netcom2.netcom.com
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:30413 alt.energy.renewable:6006
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <95Apr6.095435edt.41266@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu>,
Dave Wortman <dw@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu> wrote:
>I'm looking for pointers/references to discussions the viability of
>electrolysis as an alternative power/energy source.  Any information
>will be appreciated.

Um. Electrolysis is an energy-consuming process, not an
energy-generating process.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:41 EDT 1995
Article: 6007 of alt.energy.renewable
From: William Bill Kovarik <wkovarik@RUACAD.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Soy oil as diesel fuel
Message-ID: <17109.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:22:29 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Actually, there is quite a lot going on in the area of
soy and vegetable oils as diesel extenders and substitutes.

The organization that is doing the most in Washington
is the American Biofuels Council at 703 522 3392.
Thats based in Arlington, Va.
They have a newsletter but I dont have a copy handy.
It keeps track of all kinds of research, production and
incentive information. The ABC is partly supported by an
association that promotes soybean use.

Veggie oils (including soy, tung, rapeseed, sunflower,
cotton and many others) have excellent cetane
properties for diesel engines but they tend to be
just a little too thick for most injectors and
used at full strength cause coking and nozzle
fouling. You dont want to just pour them into
your engine. On the other hand, if you know what
you are doing, there arent a lot of major barriers
to their use except price.

There is a long history of use of veggie oils for
diesels in wartime emergencies and for air pollution
control. Unlike alcohols, which have low cetane and
high octane ratings, veggie oils require no major
engine modifications to run in diesels.

Also, there are two Oxygenated Fuels Associations
(Im not sure why we need TWO)

one at 202 296-4200 and the other at 202-414-4100

They deal mostly with ethanol, methanol, ETBE, MTBE
and related alcohols for fuel.

I wish someone from these organizations was posting
information on this list. Maybe we can encourage
them.

Bill Kovarik
wkovarik@ruacad.ac.runet.edu


Re: Soy oil as diesel fuel                                                   R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:43 EDT 1995
Article: 6008 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Lee Butler <lbutler@GATE.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: reply to Nick Pine
Message-ID: <19121.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:52:12 GMT
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>Dear Harry C......
>     Thanks for response. Maybe somebody did figure out an
>"optimum" human size. I picked 6" arbitrarily. Perhaps we
>need an interim target.  Say, four ft. David Robinson
>notwithstanding, we don't really need too many more seven
>footers, do we?
>
>   What do you think about flatplate collectors, large
>undergroundtank water storage, absorption a/c assisted by natural
>or other gas, hydronic loop space heat & water out of the same
>storage as needed. PVs for lights and small elec. Ethanol for cars.
>More mass transit. Vegetarianism. Acoustic guitars. Bicycles.
>Proportional representation.
>Newton Trey Ellison       210.227.9769
>
Excellent suggestions, however, a much more seriou problem is the mass
denial by most white male people. Consider.....Alvin Toffler explains what
is ahhpening better than I can, however,

There is a crisis of confidence in hard science in the world today.
President Clinton just announced today that the present administration
leadership is planning to cut fifty five thousand jobs (55,000) from the
space program. Good. We should not be spending money to get into space when
there is so much to do here on the ground. We are also wittnessing the end
of another respected icon of our civilization, MIT, the brain trust, which
along with Harvard, has dominated the scientific and business decisions
since the founding of America.

I think it is time to point out that this group of leaders dropped the
atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasakki near the end of world war two. We
know they will use the bomb to destory helpless citizens, in order to bring
their political leaders to their knees. We have seen them destory Kuait and
Nicaraga. They are behind the conflict in Israel, northern Ireland, Tibet,
Bosnia, and the killing which is going on in our own country.

These intellectuals, who can condemn mass populations to death, simply
because of the remarks of one man, their unfortunate leader, who has had
thecourage to speak his own mind about right and wrong in the world and
disagree with the Harvard-MIT brain trust.

 It is a known fact that all killing is wrong. Especially institutionalized
killing and yet our country continues to operate a secret covert operation,
all over the world to dominate and control everything.

alpha lee

Lee Porter Butler
620 Biscayne Drive
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
407-659-7656


Re: reply to Nick Pine


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:45 EDT 1995
Article: 6009 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Simon Webber <S.Webber@AJAX.DRA.HMG.GB>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?
Message-ID: <20013.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:15:40 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Lines: 28
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X-Status: 

>In article <213336Z03041995@anon.penet.fi>,  <an48068@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>>
>>Why don't solar heating system use a regular / traditionally high tech heat
>>pump to move the heat from the solar panels to the heat storage instead of low
>>tech air, or water?
>
>  From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
>
>  Let me get this straight. Instead of using a simple litle pump to use some
>  simple ol' water through simple pipes from the hot solar panel to the place

I agree with the original post. How about collecting the heat from
solar panels, piping the 'hot' water down to a heat store, then using
solar power in something like a peltier device, output the higher
temperature into the heat store (plus, of course, the solar energy
powering the device). The cooled water is then returned to the thermal
collector.

OK, so I haven't done the calculations. Peltier devices are around 50%
efficient, so you'd need 200% electrical power to heat source, but
there's no loss of energy since the electrical power is transferred
as heat into the store.

You'd end up with a higher temperature heat store, plus cool water
returned to the thermal collectors.

IMHO I might add. Anyone care to do the calculations?
Re: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6010 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Paul Gipe <pgipe@IGC.APC.ORG>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: max wind speed for turbines
Message-ID: <6030.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:50:21 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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mmalcolm Crawford writes

>Are there any turbines yet developed which will cope (i.e. generate
>electricity) in wind speeds of, say, 70-100 mph?  A colleague from
>California lives in an area where when they get wind, they really get
>wind...

Most wind turbines stop operating in winds above 30 m/s (65 mph). The
Carter wind turbine is the only one that I know of that does not have a
cutout wind speed. However, the Carter turbine is notoriously unreliable
and this may be one reason. Some small wind turbines use furling to control
rotor speed and thrust. Though the rotor continues to spin in high winds
the rotor is nearly parallel with the wind stream and power falls
dramatically, which is the intent. These turbines continue to operate, but
produce little power in high winds. There is little to be gained by
operating wind turbines in winds above 35 m/s.

Paul Gipe
Paul Gipe & Assoc.; 208 S. Green St., #5; Tehachapi, CA 93561;
ph: +805 822 9150; fax: +805 822 8452; pgipe@igc.apc.org/pgipe@mcimail.com

Author of "Wind Power for Home & Business" (Post Mills VT: Chelsea Green
Publishing, June, 1993), and "Wind Energy Comes of Age" (New York: John
Wiley & Sons, March, 1995).

Re: max wind speed for turbines


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:49 EDT 1995
Article: 6011 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Reflective Surface Needed
Message-ID: <16454.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:20:18 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Lines: 26
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X-Status: 

>Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:33:42 -0700
>From:    Cyberberus <Cyberberus@PSL.ORG>
>Subject: Re: Reflective Surface Needed
>
>[snip]
>Check out the reflective mylar sold at indoor garden places.  It *is*
>humidity sensitive but I found that if you sandwich it between 2 pieces
>of plastic (I use 1/16 LEXAN on sun side and 1/16 plexiglas on back) and
>seal the edges that it holds up quite nicely, at least here in Michigan.
>I use a V channel of this with black plastic pipe as a passive hydroponic
>solution heater in the winter.
>
>Re: Reflective Surface Needed

If this sandwich layer were simply suspended between two supports
that were slightly too narrow, wouldn't it form a nice curved trough
to concentrate the suns rays? (And cheap at that!). If not strong
enough, then either make it narrower, or use thicker plexiglass.
For that matter, there ought to be a market for aluminized
plexiglass, i.s.o. mylar. This should enable very cheap solar thermal
power.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>
Re: Reflective Surface Needed


From slough@halcyon.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:50 EDT 1995
Article: 6012 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!news.halcyon.com!usenet
From: slough@halcyon.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car WWW Site, Improved
Date: 5 Apr 1995 17:26:32 GMT
Organization: ECO-MOTION Electric Cars
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3lujs8$lfu@news.halcyon.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm3-ip26.halcyon.com
X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)
Status: O
X-Status: 

New Improved Electric Car WEB SITE

If it’s been a while since you visited our site,
or if you have NOT YET seen the ECO-MOTION
WEB Site.  Check it OUT.  It has more NEW
links to other cool EV sites, and not only sights
of electric cars but  ) ) )  SOUNDS ( ( (    TOO.
If your  browser can SPEAK...

http://cyberzine.org/html/Electric/ecomotion.html

Is the place to launch your  “ learning curve “   of EV’s
for today and tomorrow.


***************************************************
>From the Key Board of:
	Steven Lough, Pres
	Eco-Motion Electric Cars
	Seattle  (206) 524-1351
	E-Mail slough@halcyon.com
              Web Home Page (check it out)  http://cyberzine.org/html/Electric/ecomotion.html
"To convert a gas car to electric,
		is the highest form of re-cycling.."
***************************************************




From jstanley@gate.net Fri Apr  7 11:37:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6013 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!tequesta.gate.net!not-for-mail
From: jstanley@gate.net (John A. Stanley)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?
Date: 4 Apr 1995 17:50:43 -0400
Organization: Provided by Petra
Lines: 12
Sender: jstanley@news.gate.net
Message-ID: <T5KWlS6KRbHS079yn@gate.net>
References: <213336Z03041995@anon.penet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: seminole.gate.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <213336Z03041995@anon.penet.fi>, an48068@anon.penet.fi wrote:
> 
> Why don't solar heating system use a regular / traditionally high tech heat
> pump to move the heat from the solar panels to the heat storage instead of low
> tech air, or water?

Simplicity, and a the small pumps used consume less energy than
a compressor.

--
John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:37:53 EDT 1995
Article: 6014 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?
Message-ID: <hatunenD6LII8.1tt@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <032342Z06041995@anon.penet.fi>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 04:15:43 GMT
Lines: 27
Sender: hatunen@netcom4.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <032342Z06041995@anon.penet.fi>,  <an48068@anon.penet.fi> wrote:

>  From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)

[...]

>  How come you gotta hide behind an anonymity service to post here? Planning to
>  throw in some dirty pictures?
>
>Now I *know* you're an idiot.  Didn't you notice the sig message before? 

[...]

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
>If you reply to this message, your message WILL be *automatically* anonymized
>and you are allocated an anon id. Read the help file to prevent this.
>Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi.

Nothing in the sig message tells me why you need to hide your identity.


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Apr  7 11:37:55 EDT 1995
Article: 6015 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Proposing the creation of alt.solar.photovoltaic
Date: 6 Apr 1995 09:41:06 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3m0r1i$jdt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <6133.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3lvhbe$1m6i@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stephen Bosbach <MWVW57A@prodigy.com> wrote:

>go for it.  I'm all for a photovoltaic newsgroup.  There is so much to 
>this field it would help to have a newsgroup to share data and plans.  

Will someone **puhleeze** create this newsfroup, by placing their name
in the *** field below? I just saw a post about PVs and lizards in
alt.solar.thermal, and I'm pissed...

Nick

Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.photovoltaic.ctl,control
Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.solar.photovoltaic
Summary: newgroup for technical discussions of solar photovoltaic energy
Followup-To: alt.solar.photovoltaic
Control: newgroup alt.solar.photovoltic
Approved: ***
Distribution: world
Keywords: solar photovoltaic energy

The creation of the group alt.solar.photovoltaic was proposed in alt.config
on March 20, about two weeks ago. So far, the proposer has received only a few
positive responses to its creation by email, and mostly positive postings,
so the  group is being created with this message. alt.solar.photovoltaic is
intended to be a newsgroup for discussions of photovoltaic energy collection
and use, ie making and using electricity from the sun. This is often discussed
in alt.energy.renewable, and reading about it there tends to waste the time of
people who are interested in other forms of renewable energy, and photovoltaic
people who read that group may not wish to wade through the other discussions
that go on there. At this point, it seems useful to specialize...

alt.solar.photovoltaic is NOT intended to be a place to discuss solar
thermal energy collection and use, except as combined with photovoltaic
systems, politics, aesthetics, solar space mirrors, envelope houses,
Stirling engines, solar refrigerators or air conditioning, cool tubes,
heat pipes, wind energy, wood energy, water energy, methane generation,
sewage treatment, perpetual motion, Nikola Tesla, unseen forces,
electromagnetic pollution, capturing free energy from power lines or radio
stations, nuclear waste, decomposing dead bodies or 600 mpg cars.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6016 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Cyberberus <Cyberberus@psl.org>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Reflective Surface Needed
Message-ID: <18705.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:35:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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<original msgs follow>

  Unfortunately Lexan does not bend and still maintain its transparency,
it tends to form cloud lines and/or hairline stress fractures, for curves
you generally have to buy it pre-formed.
  Plexiglas will bend to a certain extent but its transparency value,
well .. it sucks .. the stuff eats light.

        Form                    reflective%     Note
        Reflective mylar        95%             As is, perfectly smooth.
        reflective mylar        93%             normal home installation.
        mylar backed Lexan      91%
        mylar backed plexiglas  82%

  The reason I use plexiglas as the back of the sandwich is because it's a
*cheap* way to weatherproof the mylar ... since you have to use the
ultraviolet-resistent/transparent form of Lexan (or replace it every year)
the cost of using it on both sides of the sandwich drives the total cost
up to the point where it's no longer a savings except in the *real long*
run. The only reason I could afford it at all was it was "scrap" (ie
miscut sizes) and it wasn't cheap.
  BTW: if anyone plans on using this sandwich a couple pieces of advice.
1)  Buy the 2 mil mylar, its actually more than double the cost but the
  added thickness make the surface smoother which increases reflectivity
  by 1-2% ... and its easier to handle ... less chance of wrinkles.
2)  *Don't* use adhesives except on the very edge, it *will* cause wrinkles.
3)  When you seal the edges make sure you clamp the whole piece as firmly
  as possible to exclude as much air as possible.

Have fun!

On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >Date:    Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:33:42 -0700
> >From:    Cyberberus <Cyberberus@PSL.ORG>
> >Subject: Re: Reflective Surface Needed
> >
> >[snip]
> >Check out the reflective mylar sold at indoor garden places.  It *is*
> >humidity sensitive but I found that if you sandwich it between 2 pieces
> >of plastic (I use 1/16 LEXAN on sun side and 1/16 plexiglas on back) and
> >seal the edges that it holds up quite nicely, at least here in Michigan.
> >I use a V channel of this with black plastic pipe as a passive hydroponic
> >solution heater in the winter.
> >
> >Re: Reflective Surface Needed
>
> If this sandwich layer were simply suspended between two supports
> that were slightly too narrow, wouldn't it form a nice curved trough
> to concentrate the suns rays? (And cheap at that!). If not strong
> enough, then either make it narrower, or use thicker plexiglass.
> For that matter, there ought to be a market for aluminized
> plexiglass, i.s.o. mylar. This should enable very cheap solar thermal
> power.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>
> Re: Reflective Surface Needed
>
Re: Reflective Surface Needed                                                R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:37:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6017 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Lee Butler <lbutler@GATE.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: universal energies/forces
Message-ID: <18738.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:37:10 GMT
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I love the discussion to determine if gravity is an energy of a force. Come
on boys, back to basics. What is the effective difference when it comes to
moving mass or doing work. Gravity creates the wind. Wind creates torque.
Torque can be converted to heat.
In gravity convection, we speak of loops. If you change the temperature of
a liquid or a gas, you change the denisty. In a loop, if you add or
subtract heat to one side, you will create differential density ( between
the two columns of liquid or gas) causing the colder side of the loop to
fall.

Not that you would want to do it, but you could build a solar chimney in
which you put hudge air foil blades which turned whenever the air rises. I
am simply saying that this system is superior to one which uses a crystal
to generate electricity, then uses the electricity to move air or create
torque. Building the crystal is harder than building the solar chimney.
Storage for the solar chimney system could be in the form of heat, stored
in earth mass, water or whatever. Storage for the electrical power would be
far more complicated and harder to maintain.

All of this assumes you are dealing with a client who wants something
quiet, safe, trouble free and simple to fix should anything every go wrong
with the system.

Solar electricity makes sense for providing lighting and certain electronic
applications which demand electrical power. Even up to 85 % of all lighting
could be done through well designed daylighting and ionically activated
phosphorescence surface coatings.

The other energy this board is ignoring is the thermal capacity of the
earth to influence and dominate the interior temperatures of our buildings.
The earth stays cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter, than the
temperatures at which we design our buildings. This is true virtually
anywhere in the world, meaning, we are ignoring the energy of thermal
inertia, represented by the mass of earth directly beneath our feet. Again,
this is energy which is everywhere, doesn't cost anything once a design is
created to utilize it, is quiet, pollution free. Any more questions.

Food. Food is energy. there is mounting evidence that we eat too much and
more specifically, we eat things which are known to cause deadly diseases.
In other words, we are getting our energy from corrupted and dishonest
sources which do not care if we individually, the consumers of their
products, live or die. How we cook our food and what kind of foods we
combine is very important. Without this knowledge, we suffer from many
forms of disease and die.

Without art or creative forms of self expression, the individual becomes
depressed and neurotic. The present emphasis on money and only money is
creating a society of boring lonely people. Everyone is afraid to talk
about it, however, the time is coming soon, when the pain of isolation will
become too great. People will recognize and accept theri need for artistic
expression through poetry, painting, sculpture, writing, theater,
gardening, and architecture. Our century is coming to a close with a
country overun by attorneys, bureaucrats, accountants, bean counters and
technocrats at the local, state and national levels. None of these people
make anything. All they do is sell it, account for it and print paper
subsittutes for real wealth. The unfortunate thing is, they control the
country.

The third wave describes what is happening now perfectly, just that no one
wants to accept how far it is going to go. Mindless machismo politico
police tactics are dead. Long live the revolution.

Alpha lee Rainbow Light

The Tall White men with ties

meet in their office tower board rooms
and tell each other lies
about the sizes of their portfolios
while paid cheap white trash female suckers drain their plumbing
belore the big sucker kill
waiting in the next room
 full of invited suckers listening to their lies

The tall white men with ties
Planning now  to industrialize
the next unsuspecting third world culture
sentencing the people to daily slavery
polluting the beautiful earth
felling all of the tall trees
exhausting every square inch of earth
paving over more of it with asphalt and concrete
for obscene profit and more discretionary income

the tall white men with ties
blowing up old buildings
destroying resources, buildings and effort while
allowing there brothers to go homeless and without love
sending off powerful rockets to the moon
looking for more territory to desecrate and destroy
blowing up each other in war

The tall white men with ties
telling all their lies
killing all of their wives and their children
the king white aristocrats of hate
this KKK of late
The Tall white men with ties of Wall Street
making up the wrap
legalizing con games and crap shoots
the hypnotic tunes of Madison Avenue
seducing the poor working schmuck
into beating his wife
into ignoring their children
into mortaging their life's work
for the latest consumer electronics
and cheap weekend thrills in a trendy spa resort
and a fantasy life in a country club golf course real estate development
Where will it end up?
When will it ever end?
who is responsible for the soul of man?
Who is responsible for the earth?
Who is accountable to our future generations?
Who is accountable to the cosmos?
When is enough enough
enough is enough
small is beautiful
less is more


Lee Porter Butler
620 Biscayne Drive
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
407-659-7656


universal energies/forces


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:01 EDT 1995
Article: 6018 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Lee Butler <lbutler@GATE.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Message-ID: <18991.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:43:38 GMT
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>> Well, I have worked together with the inventor and another "magnet freak"
>> during this weekend on the design and we found the solution how to power a
>> motor just via using Permanent Magnets !
>
>(And more description, with an exclamation point at the end of every
>single paragraph.)
>
>You're a fool too.
>
>--Z
>
>"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
>
>Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Egotistical male artists farts
flashing all their machismo parts
keeping women in their place
spinning illusions in your face
taking liberties with our fate

when we they act responsibly
when will they use their position to point the way
when will they ever learn
Why don't the museums hang women artists or artists of color
art, fart, male, principle
abstract shit only a few can do
give us a break
let the women through
let the people of color
express another opinion

The female point of view is open, lovely, sweet
soft, compassionate, forgiving, non-violent, reasonable
understanding, loving, caring, preserving, soft

Our present culture is brutal, violent, judgemental,
destructive, negative death defying, dominating, tyranical police nonesense,
that is what our machismo, Republican, Newt Gingrich KKK American money
monkey culture is all about

When will they ever learn?When is enough enough?
How  high is high enough? How far is far enough?
Where are we running to? What do we expect to find when we get there?
How many more attorneys, police, jails, judgement do we need?

When the male machismo artsy fartsy artists and psuedo intellectuals stop
beating women and ignoring wormen in their art, and ignoring female values
with their government and science, when these aristocrats become conscious
and aware, they find themselves happy and at peace with themselves and the
burning will stop.

Run Baby Run

See dreams forming, clouds drifting above
Hear drums pounding on distant shores
never look behind,  surrender all regrets,
the setting sun always dips below the horizon in the west

waters cover up what use to be
fears blinds to what might have been
every blade of grass has a memory
every drop of rain lives to rise again
every beam of light is a message to something
gravity attracts light
gravity attracts anything
everything attracts everything
love is gravity, matter is made up of light
light is what we use to see
see is what we long to see
run baby run
run from the setting sun
stay in the light
stay in the love
stay in the know
those who know
are not afraid
those who fear do not know
love is light, light is information
light is used by each sentient conscious entity
transformed from pure chaos into pure form through desire, love, gravity,
the weak force, the magnetic force, atraction

Elementary logic flows from the intention to communicate
Elementary harmony flows from communication
sinlight tells the plant gene to build a hydrocarbon structure, capable of
pumping water, energy and material through it self to constantly renew and
extend itself. what does sunlight tell you?

Run baby run
run from the setting sun
run for your life
run for the light
run till you drop
run till you stop
run till you see the point.

Thought you might like a break from the techno jargon.
alpha Lee

Lee Porter Butler
620 Biscayne Drive
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
407-659-7656


Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !


From mj@dmu.ac.uk Fri Apr  7 11:38:03 EDT 1995
Article: 6019 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mj@dmu.ac.uk (Mark Johnston)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: info: WECS cable model
Date: 5 Apr 1995 10:45:09 GMT
Organization: De Montfort University, Leicester, UK
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Does anyone know of historical work to model flexible steel cables
(eg tensile structures, yachts, flagpoles etc)?
Sounds like a huge area but I would be greatful for any leads.

large commercial scale wind turbines are appearing which are flexible and easier
to install and maintain but which rely on guy cables for structural support.
I'm modeling the structural response of the CARTER wind turbine (300kW rated power)
and I've got as far as the cables and I'm stuck for references and current research
interest areas.

I'll go away and look at the 'Theory' manual of ANSYS for ideas as none of the 
civil engineering books in our library have comprehensive enough bibliographies!

Thanks
Mark.






From mj@dmu.ac.uk Fri Apr  7 11:38:04 EDT 1995
Article: 6020 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mj@dmu.ac.uk (Mark Johnston)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: FW: Creating a New Civilzation
Date: 5 Apr 1995 11:28:53 GMT
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I read 'The third wave' too as part of my undergraduate course and I
can't remember all the points it made so you may have to remind me/ 
correct me.

I, too am prejudiced aboutNewt Gingrich (even from this side of 
the atlantic!) so this may all be bigotry! I guess that anything 
he is involved with will support his broad personal and 
political aims. He is a product of the present political system 
and has benefitted from centralised, simplified, (LEFT/RIGHT) 
politics. I would be cautious about jumping to conclusions that 
he is throwing it all out the window. The idea of a 
decentralised, vitual society is attractive if the basis of 
interaction of that society is anything other than pure 
currency. I would doubt Mr Gingrich would go so far as to say that!

The role of centralised government as far as I see it is to 
represent the environmental and social needs/ concerns of the 
people of the country. It has to be a majority so as to avoid 
the exesses of regional cannibalism, paedophilia, pollution of 
the environment, rampant destruction of finite resources, racism 
and other little moral fundamentals. That's way you have the 
AMerican constitution I beleive: to lay down fundamental 
principles of right and wrong and how to sustain a democracy.

Within this information has an exciting role to play in 
educating people allowing regional diversity and identity and 
decentralising decision making but power should not be devolved 
absolutely to every member of the electorate without some 
restrictions and _responsibility_ attached, I beleive.

There will always be distinctions between left and right inthe 
broadest terms which is why it is a travesty that this little 
thing called: clause 4 of the Labour party constitution 
(supporting collective ownership and distribution of wealth 
based on means and needs) is so important. LEFT will always 
stand for ensuring basic rights of shelter, income, employment 
healthcare, education (a 'WELFARE STATE'; a dirty word in some 
places, I know!) and social and environmental responsibility and 
security. RIGHT will always stand for the un-fettered rights of 
the individual to look after her/his own accrue vast power, 
influence and money and the principle that anything is available 
if you have the money to pay for it.

Finally: all information is subjective and biased so don't have 
too much confidence in any anarchic devolved information-sharing 
utopia because there are always pirates out there to spread 
discord.

Mark.


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:06 EDT 1995
Article: 6021 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Doug Heaton (448-3486)" <DYH%DYH.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.Gsu.EDU!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply
Message-ID: <25411.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:00:06 GMT
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On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Robert Sanders wrote:

>   But the real problem is that there is no evidence of global warming.
> From satellite data starting in 1979 to the present, the only measurable
> change in temperature has been 1/100 of a degree and that is being
> is more of a global problem.  But there is still no hard evidence of global
> warming.

Robert:

I am curious to know where you obtained the "1/100 of a degree"
information.  This does not fit in with the published data I have read,
specifically  -  Leggett.J., "The Threats of Climate Change: A Dozen Reasons
to Fear for the Future", Climate Action Network NGO Conference, Berlin,
March 27, 1995.

Doug

Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply                                 R


From alany@dickens.cse.tek.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:08 EDT 1995
Article: 6022 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: alany@dickens.cse.tek.com (Alan Yelvington)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrolysis as an energy source ??
Date: 6 Apr 1995 22:03:56 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.
Lines: 4
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I never considered hair removal an energy source before,
but these are amazing times.

ay


From organic@aztec.co.za Fri Apr  7 11:38:09 EDT 1995
Article: 6023 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!iafrica.com!ticsa.com!cstatd.cstat.co.za!aztec.co.za!not-for-mail
From: organic@aztec.co.za (SA Organic Fertilizer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Green groups wanted
Date: 5 Apr 1995 13:28:49 +0200
Organization: Aztec Public Access Internet
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My company is currently developing a world-wide database of environmental
and "green" organisations. We would like to cover a wide spectrum of
interest groups and angles. Anyone wishing to have themselves or their
organisations / groups listed, can contact me at the address listed in my
signature. If faxing would be more convenient, my fax number is :

+27 21 880 1140. 

-- 
 ============================================================
          S.A. Organic Fertilizer Holdings (Pty) Ltd
                   organic@aztec.co.za 
        P.O.Box 1513, Stellenbosch, 7599, South Africa 


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:11 EDT 1995
Article: 6024 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Instituto de Ciencia e Tecnologia <ict@cr-df.rnp.br>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: HELP South African Rural Developmentxx
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:09:20 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Re: HELP South African Rural Developmentxx                                   R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:13 EDT 1995
Article: 6025 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Marge Wood <mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE Digest - 3 Apr 1995 to 4 Apr 1995
Message-ID: <4494.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:25:41 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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I think these discussions are helpful, even if a certain amount is "drivel"
to quote Bob Sanders.  The long, thoughtful message about the concern of
scientists helped me realize that surveys which ask people if they believe
people descended from apes point out the distressing fact that almost half
the people in the survey don't believe that.  It really seems irrelevant,
and questions like that shut people off from more certifiable data, such as
the importance of trees and clean air and water.  It's find to exchange
our opinions, but we need to realize that lots of things can't be proved, and
don't have to be. Yes, we must find ways to help people be willing to accept
provable facts and move in a direction of cooperating with other people.
Have the senators voted yet on the amendment which would make moneey available
for renewable energy?
Marge
RE: AE Digest - 3 Apr 1995 to 4 Apr 1995


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:17 EDT 1995
Article: 6026 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@ATUVM.ATU.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply
Message-ID: <4838.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:31:44 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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X-Status: 

 Bob S. writes

>  Yes, we should (must) cut emmisions and the cutting of the rainforest
>is more of a global problem.  But there is still no hard evidence of global
>warming.
>
>  Bob (rsanders@alb.asctmd.com)
>
>Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply



I usually wait till my house catches on fire before I call my
agent about purchasing fire insurance. How come my insurance is
so costly?  How come the damage is so extensive?  Why do repairs cost
so much?  Could it be that I wait too long for evidence before
taking steps to mitigate the damage?


There is hard evidence we are changing the composition of atmosphere
at an absolutely unprecedented rate.  There is reasonably good
evidence that the climate is coupled to the comp. of the atmosphere.
Whether or not we can measure climate changes yet is irrelevant.
The RISK is there.

================================================================
 Bob Allen                     psba@atuvm.atu.edu
 Professor of Chemistry
 Arkansas Tech University      501-968-0310
 Russellville, Ar 72801
Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply                                 R


From guthery@slb.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:18 EDT 1995
Article: 6027 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Scott Guthery <guthery@slb.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: World Energy Demand
Date: 3 Apr 1995 19:43:04 GMT
Organization: Schlumberger Austin Research
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Is there a server somewhere that carries up-to-date data
on world energy demand?

Thanks, Scott



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6028 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: universal energies/forces
Message-ID: <hatunenD6KGvs.LCv@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <18738.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:43:03 GMT
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In article <18738.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Lee Butler  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>I love the discussion to determine if gravity is an energy of a force. Come
>on boys, back to basics. What is the effective difference when it comes to
>moving mass or doing work. Gravity creates the wind. Wind creates torque.

In classical terms gravity is a conservative field. ravity does not
create the wind. Solar heating creates the wind, and coriolis effects
make the weather (so to speak). Wind does not create torque unless you
blow it at a windmill.

>Torque can be converted to heat.

Torque is not a form of energy and cannot be converted to heat.

>In gravity convection, we speak of loops. If you change the temperature of
>a liquid or a gas, you change the denisty. In a loop, if you add or
>subtract heat to one side, you will create differential density ( between
>the two columns of liquid or gas) causing the colder side of the loop to
>fall.

>Not that you would want to do it, but you could build a solar chimney in
>which you put hudge air foil blades which turned whenever the air rises. I
>am simply saying that this system is superior to one which uses a crystal
>to generate electricity, then uses the electricity to move air or create
>torque. 

The use of very high chimnies, properly shaped, to create a draft which
would turn turbines, have been semi-seriously proposed in the past. They
would work, but the capital cost would probably make them impractical.
The ones I once saw sketches of would have to be thousands of feet
high.

[...]

>Solar electricity makes sense for providing lighting and certain electronic
>applications which demand electrical power. Even up to 85 % of all lighting
>could be done through well designed daylighting and ionically activated
>phosphorescence surface coatings.

You're baffling me. We need most fo our lighting at night. Whence the
"solar electricity" then?

>The other energy this board is ignoring is the thermal capacity of the
>earth to influence and dominate the interior temperatures of our buildings.
>The earth stays cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter, than the
>temperatures at which we design our buildings. This is true virtually
>anywhere in the world, meaning, we are ignoring the energy of thermal
>inertia, represented by the mass of earth directly beneath our feet. Again,
>this is energy which is everywhere, doesn't cost anything once a design is
>created to utilize it, is quiet, pollution free. Any more questions.

Dig down next summer. let me know when you hit ice. (Unless you live in
a permafrost area.)

Did you know that back in the days before refrigeration, people had ice
all year by cutting it out of ponds in the winter and storing it in
sheds and covering it with sawdust? Most of the ice would still be there
by the next autumn. You may be proposing a variant of the same thing.

[...]

>universal energies/forces

Well, not exactly.
	

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From an48068@anon.penet.fi Fri Apr  7 11:38:21 EDT 1995
Article: 6029 of alt.energy.renewable
Message-ID: <213336Z03041995@anon.penet.fi>
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From: an48068@anon.penet.fi
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Reply-To: an48068@anon.penet.fi
Date: Mon,  3 Apr 1995 21:26:10 UTC
Subject: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?
Lines: 14
Status: O
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Why don't solar heating system use a regular / traditionally high tech heat
pump to move the heat from the solar panels to the heat storage instead of low
tech air, or water?

Jim Baranski                     ! Note:  I use the Anon Server to Post because
Norwich, CT                      ! I don't have a Posting Host. So I include my
BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NL.NUWC.NAVY.MIL ! Return Address intentionally.

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Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi.


From dave@esatstyc.estec.esa.nl Fri Apr  7 11:38:22 EDT 1995
Article: 6030 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
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From: dave@esatstyc.estec.esa.nl (Dave Bass)
Subject: Re: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Message-ID: <D6M1B4.Cs9@yc.estec.esa.nl>
Sender: dave@esatst (Dave Bass)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:01:52 GMT
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Status: O
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In article <3m02rp$av5@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, jwas@ix.netcom.com (jw) writes:
[munch]

> I confess I simply can't understand people who talk of
> the survival of the human race as something hardly desirable.
> I try hard to grasp their point of view, but I fail.
> Would they save a drowning child?
> Do they disapprove of Hitler's Holocaust? 
> 

Do they have kids?

I met a man once who expressed a desire to 'write himself out of the 
gene pool' - presumably because he had a miserable life.
-- 
David Bass,  ESTEC/YCV, Postbus 299, 2200 AG Noordwijk, The Netherlands
#include std_disclaimer


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:24 EDT 1995
Article: 6031 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Allen Gordon <Gordon@COLORADO.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply
Message-ID: <9135.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:42:28 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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>
>There is hard evidence we are changing the composition of atmosphere
>at an absolutely unprecedented rate.  There is reasonably good
>evidence that the climate is coupled to the comp. of the atmosphere.
>Whether or not we can measure climate changes yet is irrelevant.
>The RISK is there.
>
>================================================================
> Bob Allen                     psba@atuvm.atu.edu


Very seldom do political decisions get made on the basis of scientific
evidence. When hard decisions have to be made and are not popular,
politician become wimps.  Furthermore, the SIGs who contribute $$ to the
politicians coffers exert
more influence than scientific or even experiential realities.  We don't
need science to tell us that the air in big cities is crappy.  Politicians
can see/feel this as well.  Yet they and we choose to ignore it 'cuz it
costs $$ to fix and will step on the toes of the SIGs.  And round and round
it goes...

Allen

Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply


From jstanley@gate.net Fri Apr  7 11:38:25 EDT 1995
Article: 6032 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jstanley@gate.net (John A. Stanley)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE Digest - 1 Apr 1995 to 2 Apr 1995
Date: 3 Apr 1995 19:14:51 -0400
Organization: Provided by Petra
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X-Status: 

In article <8257.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Marge Wood <mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU> wrote:
> How about some talk about passive solar cooling?  
[snip]
> Someone asked a few months ago
> about underground pipes for pulling in coolth; anyone know about that? and
> is mold a problem?  

I have an earth tube. Mold is only a problem if the tubes are
inaccessible. Our system uses 30" well tile going down 10' to a
concrete manhole. Heavier reinforced well tile goes horizontal
for 15' to another manhole. From that manhole the cool air
travels to the house in three 8" PVC pipes to the small basement
under the kitchen. A person can go down into the concrete part
of the system and clean it out, and since the PVC tubes are
accessible at both ends, they can be cleaned by pulling brushes
through with rope.

> Is the solar chimney the best solution so far? 

Got one of them, too. Does a dandy job of keeping the attached
greenhouse purged of hot air during the summer.


--
John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net



From young@bunyip.ap.dg.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6033 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: young@bunyip.ap.dg.com (Philip Young)
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Date: 6 Apr 1995 15:37:52 GMT
Organization: Data General Australia
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Sender: young@bunyip (Philip Young)
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3ksppu$qtt@sundog.tiac.net>,
conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) opines:

|> Len Lekx (LFLekx@Booster.Tor.HookUp.NET) wrote:
|> 
|> :     It all depends on how you define your "end".  MY end is 'The Immortality
|> : of Humanity' - thus the means are expansion into space.
|> 
|> Why do you believe that Humanity deserves immortality any more than 
|> the species that preceded it?  Frankly, if immortality is ever achieved, 
|> I'd prefer it to be done by something considerably more advanced and  
|> deserving than Man who, at this juncture, remains little more than a 
|> cunning and inventive savage.

What does "deserves" have to do with it?  The relevant factors are
perspective, ability, application and natural constraints (laws of
physics).  Your misanthropic whinings, and the implication that
there's an objective, external morality against which our species is
collectively to be judged (by whom?), would induce a severe case of
ROTFL, except that it's politically incorrect to deride mental illness.

So you would judge us all, and doom us to universal isolation and
death?  God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah for a handful of
righteous men.  Is there not such a handful today in your terms?
Even without, He spared Lot ... and the reputation of the God of
the OT is not exactly bleeding heart.  Yet you, who are (presumably)
one of us, don't even have His smidgeon of compassion for your own
people.

Now, I *know* I'm dealing in allegories here. Don't impute the 
presence or absence of any theological outlook, or use this as an
excuse to avoid the conclusion that your philosophical position is
bigoted, cruel and loveless.  Is that how you see yourself, or are
you smugly superior, the one Righteous Man, the Lot of our time?

Anyone for salt?  
 
-- 
Philip R. Young					young@bunyip.ap.dg.com

theoreticians have come up with a whole bunch of explanations, some of
them could even be true.                                -- Marc Bellon


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:28 EDT 1995
Article: 6034 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ken Docksteader <kend@mdd.comm.mot.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Septic Systems - A Waste of Waste
Message-ID: <1676.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 06:38:01 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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I'd be interested in some more information.
My address is
Ken Docksteader
15823 94th Ave
Surrey, B.C.
Canada V4N 3B8

Is it in use anywhere? Something that small must
only handle black water.
What do the health beurocrats think of it?

Ken
Re: Septic Systems - A Waste of Waste


From ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu Fri Apr  7 11:38:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6035 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Azeez Hayne <ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Poverty, Welfare reform and Space Spending (was Email Energy Support)
Date: 6 Apr 1995 06:37:16 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA, USA
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks for that entertaining post, if you hadn't done it, then I would 
have. I rather think that humanity should go for immortality because we 
are all(I think :^)) _Homo_Sapiens_Sapiens_, oh yeah, and pretty much 
because that's what all species do according to evolutionary theory.




From wlauzon@aol.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6036 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: wlauzon@aol.com (WLauzon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: DC to AC Inverters
Date: 3 Apr 1995 22:29:18 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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For that size system, you might have to go with something like a pair of
stacked Trace 4000 watt inverters.
There are not a wide range of 240 volt inverters around.
You could also use a transformer.
Warren Lauzon, Solar Electric Specialties Co, Phoenix.  800-964-8881 
602-877-2317
FAX: 602-872-9215


From mcfaddp@westminster.ac.uk Fri Apr  7 11:38:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6037 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,sci.systems,sci.environment,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,talk.environment
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From: mcfaddp@westminster.ac.uk (Pamm McFadden)
Subject: National Solar Energy Conference
Message-ID: <D6o2vD.DvJ@westminster.ac.uk>
Organization: University of Westminster
References: <3m11sg$7nt@fdcap2.ap.dg.com> <3m02rp$av5@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <D6M1B4.Cs9@yc.estec.esa.nl>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:30:48 GMT
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Hello everyone,

I though you might be interested in this announcement.

SOLAR '95   The National Solar Energy Conference

sponsored by the American Solar Energy Society


Solar '95 will celebrate the rich history of American Solar Energy Society Conferences.  This is the 20th anniversary of the first passive solar conference.
We also mark the 40th anniversary of the first solar society conference.
Solar '95 will focus on 10,000 Solutions: Paths to a Renewable Future.  In
Minnesota, the midwestern climate presents unique challenges to realizing a 
renewable energy future.  As we work toward this goal, experts from the 
midwest and around the world will share their experience in the Plenary
and Symposia Sessions.

The technical sessions include over 140 technical presentations chosen in
a rigorous review process by two program committees.  Thetechnical program will also include forums for audience participation, and hands-on demonstrations
of recently developed assessment technology.

There will also be tours and workshops.

For more information, contact:
	The American Solar  Energy Society
	2400 Cnetral, Unit G1
	(opps, I can't go back and edit - 2400 Central)
	Boulder, CO 80301
	(303) 443 3130    phone
	(303) 443 3212    fax
	ases@igc.apc.org  email

Pamm

P.S. and let them know where you found out about the conference!


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr  7 11:38:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6038 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electrolysis as an energy source ??
Message-ID: <hatunenD6o5D8.1Ep@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <95Apr6.095435edt.41266@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu> <hatunenD6MD1o.279@netcom.com> <3m20i7$7he@sundog.tiac.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:24:44 GMT
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In article <3m20i7$7he@sundog.tiac.net>,
Harry H Conover <conover@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <95Apr6.095435edt.41266@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu>,
>: Dave Wortman <dw@pdp1.sys.toronto.edu> wrote:
>: >I'm looking for pointers/references to discussions the viability of
>: >electrolysis as an alternative power/energy source.  Any information
>: >will be appreciated.
>
>: Um. Electrolysis is an energy-consuming process, not an
>: energy-generating process.
>
>Actually Dave, electrolysis can sometimes be reversed to produce
>energy, in which case science calls it a 'Battery'.

I don't believe that falls within the definition of "electrolysis",
which involves the long term dissociaton of molecules by the
application of a current, rather than a chemical reaction which
happens to produce an emf until the reaction is complete.

I believe the "-lysis" is the same "-lysis" as in "analysis".

A battery is an electrochemical reaction, though.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr  7 11:38:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6039 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Jordan Wilkerson <chille@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: World Energy Demand
Message-ID: <18835.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 04:06:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 25
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Scott Guthery wrote:

> Is there a server somewhere that carries up-to-date data
> on world energy demand?
>
> Thanks, Scott
>
>
> World Energy Demand
>
How about WRI (World Resources Institute) in Washingto DC.  I know
they are supposed to keep an unbiased account of resources, so I'll
bet they keep track of the consumption of them.  Sorry, I do not have the
number, but they are in the District.

Jordan Wilkerson

University of Maryland
Hybrid Electric Vehicle Research
Project Manager
chille@eng.umd.edu

"Ignorance Breeds Fear"

Re: World Energy Demand                                                      R


From dornsj@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Fri Apr 14 20:34:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6069 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.vanderbilt.edu!dial019.Vanderbilt.Edu!dornsj
From: dornsj@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Sherman Dorn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: solar ovens
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 20:22:44
Organization: Vanderbilt University
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <dornsj.80.001461A3@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial019.vanderbilt.edu
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X-Status: 

After asking for some assistance on building a solar oven last year on 
sci.energy , I thought I'd give a follow-up.  I tried to build two solar ovens 
last year, neither of which worked very well.  I used fiberglass insulation 
between two boxes, a lid with glass glued to it, and reflectors of cardboard 
and aluminum foil.

Unfortunately, what I built did not work.  I'm still not sure what I did 
wrong, but I also couldn't put together a working balsa racing car when I was 
in Cub Scouts.  Nothing ever got much hotter than 150 F or 200 F.  I suspect 
the problem was a combination of inappropriate dimensions, reflector 
arrangements, and not enough black coating inside the oven.

This year, I broke down and bought a solar oven.  The big Burns-Milwaukee gray 
thing, which I got direct from them.  It's 21 lbs. and an armful 
to carry, which will be difficult to store in our 750 sq. ft. house.  It also 
came with no instructions, though I could figure out how to use it pretty 
easily.  In the past few weeks, I've tried it out in a variety of situations, 
and the bottom line is:  it works.

This is not an advertisement or endorsement, though I suspect I'll be quite 
happy with it in the long term.  This is, rather, evidence that solar ovens 
work (and that you should not ask me to build one).  I've thus far cooked 
beans, quick bread, potatoes, and a few other things in it.  It *is* different 
cooking, though the hard part is not adjusting recipes.  If there is a qualm, 
it is that for some projects (such as beans or soups), you really do need 
several hours when the darned thing is focused, so you have to refocus 
it at least once.  So it's not a "leave it and go" item.  (It's also not 
something you'd want to leave around in a populated area, at least not unless 
you've got a chain to prevent someone from walking off with it.)

I have tried it when it was partly cloudy out, and it didn't work nearly as 
well.  I know, silly to expect a solar oven to work in cloudy conditions, 
but I wanted to see precisely how it affected it.  The bottom line is, while 
I could get it up to 350 F or so when the sun shines, you really can't get 
it up much past 225 or 250 when the sun is intermittent, at least in 
Nashville.  So that's a limitation, and I wouldn't advise people in Seattle to 
expect to use it regularly during the year.  And I'm not sure how often we'll 
be able to use it during a Tennessee summer (which sees lots of 
thunderstorms).  I'll post another followup in the fall.
____________
Sherman Dorn
Vanderbilt University 
dornsj@ctrvax.vanderbilt


From roo@wombat.han.de Fri Apr 14 20:34:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6089 of alt.energy.renewable
Lines: 18
Newsgroups: cl.energie.alternativen,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Message-ID: <5jPU6bNbJeB@wombat.han.de>
From: roo@wombat.han.de (Dr. Christian Boettger)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!maui.cc.odu.edu!xanth.cs.odu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.gun.de!linteuto.teuto.de!bi-node.teuto.de!bionic.zer.de!ldb.han.de!baghira.han.de!wombat.han.de!roo
Organization: Big fat Wombat
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 06:29:00 +0100
References: <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de>, <kevin.jessup.490.001FE672@mail.mei.com>
X-Gateway: ZCONNECT UB bi-node.owl.de [UNIX/Connect v0.71]
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In /cl/energie/alternativen kevin.jessup (Kevin Jessup)  uttered
on the subject "Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !":
> In article <5j67tQ49ldB@shb.contrib.de> harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan
> Hartmann) writes:
>
> Not THIS again!!!!
>
> No need to pollute the space of the SCI newsgroups.
nor cl.energie.alternativen, I'd like to add. BTW: c.e.a is a german
newsgroup, so it's the wrong language in addition....


                    Christian
--
Dr. Christian Boettger:  work: boettger@hmi.de, boettger@vax.hmi.d400.de
                        home: roo@wombat.han.de, olorin@skatebox.han.de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PGP public key available as return receipt<<<<<<<<<<<<<



From craigk@tcplink.nrel.gov Fri Apr 14 20:34:50 EDT 1995
Article: 6097 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!ncar!csn!nrel!kcraig.nrel.gov!craigk
From: craigk@tcplink.nrel.gov (Kevin Craig)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr,sci.engr.chemical,sci.environment,co.general,boulder.general,sci.systems,misc.jobs.offered
Subject: Engineering Job Opening at National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colorado
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 17:19:17
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <craigk.44.001152D5@tcplink.nrel.gov>
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Status: O
X-Status: 


POSITION TITLE: SENIOR CHEMICAL PROCESS ENGINEER

GRADE LEVEL: R15
BRANCH: 4300
REQ. NUMBER: E4300-520
STATUS: Accepting Resumes
DUTIES: Perform engineering evaluations and analysis of
ongoing and potential technologies for production of fuels, chemicals,
and electric power.  Evaluate processes, prepare original conceptual
designs, use state-of-the-art process design methods to determine
process economics, and opportunities for research to improve the
technology.  Lead task or subtask as required to perform process
evaluations and related research and development.

REQUIRED:   Advanced degree in chemical engineering or relevant
equivalent experience in process simulation using the ASPEN process
simulator and chemical engineering technologies.  Demonstrated
experience in critically evaluating chemical process systems for fuels,
chemicals, and electric power production.  Effective written and verbal
skills.

PREFERRED:  Six to eight years experience in process
engineering, simulation, and evaluation.

WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO HIRE AT A LOWER OR HIGHER LEVEL

SALARY RANGE MINIMUM:  $46,300

POSTING PERIOD FOR NREL EMPLOYEES EXPIRES 5:00 PM ON MARCH
8, 1995

For a current job listing you may call our JOB LINE: (303)
275-4300 or 1-800-398-3513 or you may access INTERNET
through Gopher at "info.nrel.gov" or World Wide Web (Mosaic)
at URL "http://info.nrel.gov ".

Send resume specifying requisition number to the following
address (ONLY! DO NOT e-mail replies to the author of this message!):

Human Resources Office
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
1617 Cole Blvd
Golden, CO  80401

You will be contacted only if selected for an interview.

NREL IS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER.
WOMEN AND MINORITIES ARE ENCOURAGED TO APPLY

Kevin

- All opinions expressed are solely those of the author -


From conover@max.tiac.net Fri Apr 14 20:34:52 EDT 1995
Article: 6105 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Caveat Emptor?
Date: 12 Apr 1995 12:44:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3mghug$oom@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <19751.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Malcolm Sanders (malcolm@ARETHA.JAX.ORG) wrote:

: If the bulb operates at 120V
: and draws 0.26A, then the power consumption would be 31.2W, would it
: not?

Perhaps not.  You're not taking power factor into account, and with 
the series ballasts that fluorescent bulbs employ, I'd expect that 
the power factor would be considerably less than unity, and lagging.
Actual power (P) should be something like:

                   P = Volts * Amps * Cos(theta)  

where theta is the phase difference in degrees between voltage and current
waveforms, and Cos(theta) is the power factor.

Even so, labeling of the bulb seems a little cryptic.

                                 Harry C.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:34:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6107 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@ATUVM.ATU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.alpha.net!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: cfc industry/ was energy industry...
Message-ID: <29994.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 22:14:01 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 30
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a previous post Harry writes

 ...To do what we have already to the CFC industry...


Response: Just what is it we have done?  Corporations which
formerly produced CFC are now producing HCFC (hydochlorofluoro-
carbons) and will eventially produce HFC (hydrofluorocarbons).

Scientists and engineers are busily reconfiguring compressors
etc. to accomadate the slightly different vapor pressure,
and other physical properties.  Yes it costs us all a little
more to "keep our cool" But compared to the risk of increased
costs for treating more cancer, more costs for food due to reduced
agracultural productivety, for incalculable costs for decreased
biodiversity, it's a bargin.  And it's working, although the conc
of cfcs in the stratophere is still increasing, the rate of increase
is slowing. Peak concentrations are projected a few decades out and
a return to pre 1990 levels around 2070, if memory serves me.

 So call me conservative, I like to hear the spring peepers here in the
Ozarks.  Maybe I would even hear them even if wee didn't do something
but to me the risk is too great and the cost reasonable.

================================================================
 Bob Allen                     psba@atuvm.atu.edu
 Professor of Chemistry
 Arkansas Tech University      501-968-0310
 Russellville, Ar 72801
cfc industry/ was energy industry...                                         R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:34:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6108 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Caroline Le Couteur <clecoute@CANDELO.DPIE.GOV.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Green groups wanted
Message-ID: <4767.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 00:43:20 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 26
Status: O
X-Status: 

>My company is currently developing a world-wide database of environmental
>and "green" organisations. We would like to cover a wide spectrum of
>interest groups and angles. Anyone wishing to have themselves or their
>organisations / groups listed, can contact me at the address listed in my
>signature. If faxing would be more convenient, my fax number is :
>
>+27 21 880 1140.
>
>--
> ============================================================
>          S.A. Organic Fertilizer Holdings (Pty) Ltd
>                   organic@aztec.co.za
>        P.O.Box 1513, Stellenbosch, 7599, South Africa
>
>Green groups wanted

This is an orgnaisation I can associated with, not where I work

Australian Conservation Foundation
340 Gore st
Fitzroy Melbourne VIC Australia
ph 03 416 1166
fax 03 416 0767


Re: Green groups wanted


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:34:58 EDT 1995
Article: 6109 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Bill Parker <bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: National Solar Energy Conference
Message-ID: <6017.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 01:17:54 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Hello everyone,
>
>I though you might be interested in this announcement.
>
>SOLAR '95   The National Solar Energy Conference
>
>sponsored by the American Solar Energy Society
>
>
>Solar '95 will celebrate the rich history of American Solar Energy Society
> Conferences.  This is the 20th anniversary of the first passive solar
> conference.

SNIP

>For more information, contact:
>        The American Solar  Energy Society
>        2400 Cnetral, Unit G1
>        (opps, I can't go back and edit - 2400 Central)
>        Boulder, CO 80301
>        (303) 443 3130    phone
>        (303) 443 3212    fax
>        ases@igc.apc.org  email

And on that note, if anyone is visiting Australia in late November this
year, you might like to know about the Aust. NZ Solar Energy Society's
conference to be held in Hobart Tasmania. When you're through talking solar
you can get out  and see the wilderness. Its a perfect time of year being
summer.

email to
mures@probitas.cs.utas.edu.au.

Bill

(dr) Bill Parker
Can we afford to go on wasting solar energy?
:bill@brenta.eepo.com.au             *OR*
:bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au
(+ 619) 328 3804 phone /fax Box 175 North Perth Australia 6006

Re: National Solar Energy Conference


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr 14 20:34:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6110 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!clpd-newsserver!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Why not use Heat Pump with solar panels?
Message-ID: <hatunenD6uAGG.4tG@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <192411Z10041995@anon.penet.fi>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:00:15 GMT
Lines: 154
Sender: hatunen@netcom7.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <192411Z10041995@anon.penet.fi>,  <an48068@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
>
>  From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
>
>  Or perhaps you're not understanding the thermodynamics involved.
>
>Perhaps...
>
>  OK. All a heat pump gains for you is the ability to store your solar heat at
>  a higher temperature. Total _solar_ heat stored will not be any greater. 
>
>Ignoring the heat lost from the solar panel to outside, yes...
>
>Ignoring the fact that without a heat pump, if the solar panel only gets up to
>80 degrees before it starts losing as much heat as it generates, and that
>without a heat pump, you're not going to be able to transfer much heat from an
>80 degree panel to an 70 degree room, yes...

That would be poor solar panel design. It's not that hard to get it
very warm, inside a panel, no matter how cloudy the day.

>Actually, I think I'm saying the same thing twice.  Basically, the heat pump
>can pump heat out of the solar panel before it would normally conduct/radiate
>out.

But so can a properly designed panel and circulating water system.

>You're right, it doesn't *add* heat (never said it did), but it *might* "save"
>heat that would be otherwise lost from the panel to the outside, by keeping the
>panel at a lower temperature.

Doubtful, due to inherent inefficiencies in the heat pump principle.

>I think what you're trying to say is that, *if* you're only getting enough
>radiation to bring the solar panel up to 80 degrees, *then* there's not enough
>heat in the panel to make it worthwhile to remove it, with a heat pump, or
>without.  If you're getting more radiation, then why not move the heat
>'naturally', instead of with a heat pump.

More or less.

>Unfortunately, you're as clear as mud!  And I don't think the problem is my
>ignorance!

It's not easy to explain. Coefficient of Performance and other stuff
has to be considered. 

>  Assume your solar collector is at y degrees, raised to that temp by the sun
>  from an ambient temp of w.
>
>  Then the hottest storage you can hope for is y degrees. But total heat (by
>  raising your storage water's temp) will be x calories. And the heat was
>  removed from the collector by water circulation lowering the collector temp
>  back to w.
>
>What this implies is that you can't heat your storage any hotter then your
>collectors.  This seems like a severe limitation to me.  Like I said, If you
>want to heat your storage water up to say 150-180 F, that means that you're
>exposing the that temperature (X) collector SF to the outside, and losing a lot
>of heat at the collector.

I don't believe any properly designed solar collection system would
have this problem in the first place.

>But you seem to feel that this is only going to be important if you're not
>collecting enough heat in marginal situations to heat the collectors hotter
>then the storage.  Well, that may be, but some of us have a *lot* of marginal
>solar days, and we need to use what we have!

And you will need a lot of "marginal" electricty from the grid to do
it.

>You are saying that I should add more storage, so that I don't need the
>(storage and collector) temperature to be so high.
>
>The other question I have, is transferring heat from the storage to the living
>space.  Isn't a low temperature storage going to make that heat transfer
>difficult as well?

Talk to people who actually do it.

>  With a heat pump you can move the same heat to the storage and cause the
>  storage water to be at a temperature higher than y. But only if you have less
>  water to raise the temperature of, so that total heat stored by raising the
>  water temp will still be x calories. That's because only x calories of solar
>  heat was available.
>
>  The part that can fool you is that the heat pump can move more heat than the
>  sun provided, by depressing the temperature of the collector below w degrees.
>  But this is _not_ solar heat. And this heat could have been put into storage
>  even if you had no solar collector at all.
>
>Well, if ambient temperature = w = 10 F, and you have a choice of heating the
>collectors to 60-80 F with a heat pump, or 100-130 F without a heat pump before
>you can begin to gain any heat, I'd obviously prefer the former!

But how much electricity will you need to do it? And remember, the
water has a large heat capacity. You will very quickly have your
collector down to -40F. 

Except heat pumps don't work very well period at temps like that. Or
people in Alaska would use them for gettin heat from the snow.

You need to calculate some real calories or BTUs in, with real temps
and real Coefficients of Performance. Throwing around stuff like the
"if you have a choice.." paragraph above isn't engineering, and what
you need is engineering. 





>
>  Obviously this is quite simplified, and I've described a batch process,
>  rather than the real-world continuous process, just so it's easier to keep
>  track of where the heat is coming from and where it is going.
>
>  Now the bad part is that it's a _lot_ cheaper to buy and run a cirulating
>  water pump than a compressor operated heat pump. And the heat pump will use
>  more electrical energy doing it. I Haven't made the calcs, but it's entirely
>  possible that you would have got more heat into storage at even a higher temp
>  if you had just put an electric heater in the storage tank and used the
>  electricity that would go to run the compressor. As far as tthe solar part
>  goes, anyway.
>
>Uh, No.  My understanding is that a heat pump can move multiple times as much
>heat as it comsumes (depending on temperature), making it much more efficient
>then simply 'burning' the energy.
>
>The question in my mind is, is the heat pump going to save more energy from
>being lost at the solar panels then it consumes.
>
>Jim.
>
>"Excuse me, did He say "Love Each Other?"
>
>"Well, actually He meant, 'try to control everyone, make them who you think they
> should be, run their lives for them, and make them miserable'."
>
>Jim Baranski                     ! Note:  I use the Anon Server to Post because
>Norwich, CT                      ! I don't have a Posting Host. So I include my
>BARANSKI@VEAMF1.NL.NUWC.NAVY.MIL ! Return Address intentionally.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
>If you reply to this message, your message WILL be *automatically* anonymized
>and you are allocated an anon id. Read the help file to prevent this.
>Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi.


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From mburns@indirect.com Fri Apr 14 20:35:01 EDT 1995
Article: 6111 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics.particle
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.indirect.com!mburns
From: mburns@indirect.com (Michael J. Burns)
Subject: Re: TMI and PM_Square explanations !
Message-ID: <D6ssn6.Kp@indirect.com>
Sender: usenet@indirect.com (Internet Direct Admin)
Organization: Internet Direct, indirect.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 02:37:53 GMT
References: <5jM8f1BeldB@shb.contrib.de>
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Followup-To: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.environment,sci.physics,sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics.particle
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:30707 alt.energy.renewable:6111 alt.paranet.science:2233 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:13091 sci.environment:56078 sci.physics:101066 sci.physics.fusion:18161 sci.physics.particle:3057
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stefan Hartmann (harti@shb.contrib.de) wrote:
: Hi,
: I received this from an "anonymous" friend. Please read it and let me know
: what you think about this theory for the explanation of the TOMI and PM_Square
: effect !


: c) Permanent Magnet Motors
:                     ___________________________
:                   /                             \
:                 /                                 \
:  Mu metal     /                                     \
:  housing    /                                         \
:           /                                             \
:         /                                                 \
:       /                   _______________                   \
:     /                   /    ------->     \                   \
:    |       current    /      B-fields       \                  |
:    |          tube  /           |             \                |
:    |              /             |               \              |
:    |             |    /---------|----------\     |             |
:    |             |  / _______  <--  ________ \   |             |
:    |             |  ||S     N| /-\ |N      S||   |             |
:    |             |  ||_______| \-/ |________||   |             |
:    |             |  \       axis wire        /   |             |
:    |             |    \--------------------/     |             |
:    |              \           rotor              /             |
:    |               \    \                      /               |
:    |                \     \-->               /                 |
:     \                 \ ___________________/                  /
:       \                                                     /
:         \                                                 /
:           \                                             /
:             \                                         /
:               \                                     /
:                 \                                 /
:                   \_____________________________/

: fig.4 magnetic motor with no brushes; top view
: the magnet charges on the rotor are spinning around the axis wire
: in the stationary double circular and opposite rot B fields of
: the wire and the current tube.

Unfortunately, there is no opposite B field inside the current tube due to
the current in the current tube.  The B field due to the tube cancels inside
but does exist outside the tube.

The Jackson text is entirely wrong if it does discuss magnetic fields 
without a potential - the electromagnetic 4-potential A always applies to 
the conservation of 4-momentum (energy and momentum) by electromagnetic 
interactions.  See GRAVITATION by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler.

The simultaneous presence of bare electric and magnetic monopole charges is
required to destroy the 4-potential and allow free energy devices.  I 
have found a design for such a device and submitted it for publication in 
the spirit of criticism of monopole theory.

--
Michael J. Burns     Contradiction resolution is the stuff of the universe.
mburns@indirect.com  Observers fulfill the apriori need for fallibility.


From econnect.snowcrest.net Fri Apr 14 20:35:03 EDT 1995
Article: 6112 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!tcsi.tcs.com!agate!overload.lbl.gov!mtshasta!ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net!user
From: econnect.snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Any Staber users?
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 13:29:34 -0800
Organization: Electron Connection
Lines: 17
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <econnect.snowcrest.net-0804951329340001@ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net>
References: <geoffD6KMDK.5vG@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net
Status: O
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In article <geoffD6KMDK.5vG@netcom.com>, geoff@netcom.com (Geoffrey Leach)
wrote:

> The Staber System 2000 is a clothes-washer made by a small US company.
> It uses DC-motor technology and claims to run at less than half the
> enegry cost of conventional machines. All this from Home Power.
> (Staber is at 800-848-6200)
> 
Geoffrey, Kathleen and I have been testing the Staber System 2000 for Home
Power. Unless something comes along to change my mind, we'll be giving it
the thumbs-up in HP#47. Electrically speaking, it uses a bit less power to
run a cycle than other machines, but the real savings is in thge energy
used to heat water. I uses a little less than 1/2 the water of a top
loader, but only a little less than a front loader. It is really well made
and yes Troy, we've run it on a number of mod-sine inverters with no
problems.
Best, Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection, econnect@snowcrest.net


From econnect.snowcrest.net Fri Apr 14 20:35:05 EDT 1995
Article: 6113 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!tcsi.tcs.com!agate!overload.lbl.gov!mtshasta!ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net!user
From: econnect.snowcrest.net (Bob-O Schultze)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Used NiCad Batteries
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 13:55:37 -0800
Organization: Electron Connection
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <econnect.snowcrest.net-0804951355370001@ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net>
References: <3m6pcf$rvr@finzi.ccinet.ab.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp1.yreka.snowcrest.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3m6pcf$rvr@finzi.ccinet.ab.ca>, jbulmer@ccinet.ab.ca (Jim
Bulmer) wrote:

I'd appreciate answers to the following:
> 
> What depth of discharge (DOD) is recommended? One book says the shallower the
> better, <30% best.The other 2 say you can fully discharge without damage.
All batteries deteriorate more rapidly when deeply discharged. Nicads
suffer from this far less than lead-acid batteries. The problem with deep
discharge is getting ALL the cells back to some semblence of
equalization.Since it takes charging to 1.6V/cell to do this properly,
it's a problem for most chargers.
What does the DOD vs. life-expectancy curve look like?
Shallower is better.NEVER take them below 80% DOD. All cells are not
equal. The chance of one or more cells reversing polarity is too great.
Less DOD than that doesn't seem to mater as much with nicads as it does
with LA. 
> What is the best charge current/voltage?
C/10 to C/20 works well. Get 'em to 1.6V/cell if you can.
> Do Nicads benefit from equilization charging?
Yes,yes,yes. Don't let anybody tell you different. I lived with the damn
things for over two years.
> I've heard of the memory effect in small NiCads. Is this a problem in
large cells?
Wet pocket plate nicads such as you have do not exhibit a memory effect.
> If so, how can I avoid it?
> Because the KOH electrolyte is not part of the reaction, I assume Nicads
don't give off gas when charging. Is this true? Can they be put indoors
safely?
>Nicads (and all other WET BATTERIES) definately give off hydrogen gas
when charging. It's the breakdown of water into O2 and H. In fact, nicads
start gassing at about 75% of capacity under charge, a bit lower than
L/As. Don't smoke!
Best of Luck, Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection, econnect@snowcrest.net


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:09 EDT 1995
Article: 6114 of alt.energy.renewable
From: John Iovine <jiovine@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !
Message-ID: <8305.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 02:27:20 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 6
Status: O
X-Status: 

+ 60 % Cool

J.Iovine


Re: PM_Square ! Permanent Magnet Powered Motor !


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:11 EDT 1995
Article: 6115 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Brian Rainbolt <BMR2%OPS%DCPP@bangate.pge.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: LED replacement lamps
Message-ID: <21237.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 17:47:14 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

A while back somebody asked about LED replacements for incandescent bulbs
they supposedly have 100,000-hour life. The are not subject to failure from
shock, vibration or cold. Also the LED's operate at lower temps. and less
current. I have only read an ad in a trade magazine and know nothing else
about them. This is the info. in the ad.
    Data Display Products
    445 South Douglas Street
    El Segundo, CA 90245-4630
    (800) 421-6815  (310) 640-0442
LED replacement lamps


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6116 of alt.energy.renewable
From: VINAR <S=VINAR%S=VINAR%G=INTEGRATE%P=VSNBOM%VSNB@mcimail.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: How is charcoal made?
Message-ID: <3651.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:55:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 11 Apr 1995, John A. Stanley (jstanley@gate.net) wrote:

>In some far, dusty corner of my head I recall that walnut shells
>make good activated charcoal. Can you verify this?

Well, we have never used walnut shell, as it is not abundantly
available here in India. But I suspect that it would be a
good source and in all probability give a granular activated
charcoal just like Coconut shell, or even better in terms of
porosity :-)

Sushil
s=vinar%g=integrate%p=vsnbom%vsnb@mcimail.com

Re: How is charcoal made?


From 75442.1622@CompuServe.COM Fri Apr 14 20:35:18 EDT 1995
Article: 6117 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!news.inhouse.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news
From: Steve Troy <75442.1622@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Any Staber users?
Date: 7 Apr 1995 04:10:00 GMT
Organization: Jade Mountain Inc.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3m2duo$3i5$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>
References: <geoffD6KMDK.5vG@netcom.com>
Status: O
X-Status: 

Geoffrey,

I haven't used a Staber myself but we've sold some - at least one 
person using a modified sine wave inverter.  I think they'll even 
work on an 800 watt model.

It's too soon for much feedback yet but stay in touch - I'll let you
know what we find out.

-- 
Best regards,
Steve Troy, Jade Mountain Inc.
email: 75442.1622@compuserve.com


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6118 of alt.energy.renewable
From: William Bill Kovarik <wkovarik@RUACAD.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Seaweed
Message-ID: <11518.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:07:06 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 32
Status: O
X-Status: 

Whoever wrote the query about seaweed must be thinking about the
enormous potential of marine biomass for renewable energy without
terrestrial impacts.

If you can find a copy of the "Bio Energy Directory", last published
in 1985 (unfortunately), there is information about all kinds of
experiments with seaweed / kelp and microscopic algae. The primary
commercial use for seaweed is as a food in Japan and as a feedstock for
agar, a medium for petri dish experiments. It grows in cultivation at
very rapid rates, something like a ton per square meter per year, (Ill
check exact figures if anyone likes).

In an old scientific american I once came across an article about the
Pasteur Institute using acid hydrolysis to get 10 gallons of alcohol
for fuel per ton of seaweed.

Using these figures, one could imagine a 100 square kilometer area producing
one million gallons of alcohol for fuel per year, or an area the size of
Argentina producing enough to replace the entire US supply of gasoline.

One thing I like about this idea is that it could provide a virtually
limitless supply of dignified skilled and semi-skilled jobs in tropical
regions, helping alleviate Third World poverty while supplying the
industrial nations with renewable fuel.

But then, I've been on this particular hobby horse on this channel before,
so Ill sign off with thanks.

Bill Kovarik
wkovarik@ruacad.ac.runet.edu

Re: Seaweed                                                                  R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:22 EDT 1995
Article: 6119 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Bill Overbay <woverbay@providence.edu>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Green groups wanted
Message-ID: <12867.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:47:33 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 36
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am doing  research on teh Green party and their involvement in the
European Union, I would appreicate you sending me any results that you get..
Thank you for your help in this matter.  It seems that what you are doing is
very intresting.
Bill Overbay
woverbay@providence.edu>>My company is currently developing a world-wide
database of environmental
>>and "green" organisations. We would like to cover a wide spectrum of
>>interest groups and angles. Anyone wishing to have themselves or their
>>organisations / groups listed, can contact me at the address listed in my
>>signature. If faxing would be more convenient, my fax number is :
>>
>>+27 21 880 1140.
>>
>>--
>> ============================================================
>>          S.A. Organic Fertilizer Holdings (Pty) Ltd
>>                   organic@aztec.co.za
>>        P.O.Box 1513, Stellenbosch, 7599, South Africa
>>
>>Green groups wanted
>
>This is an orgnaisation I can associated with, not where I work
>
>Australian Conservation Foundation
>340 Gore st
>Fitzroy Melbourne VIC Australia
>ph 03 416 1166
>fax 03 416 0767
>
>
>Re: Green groups wanted
>
>

Re: Green groups wanted


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6120 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Peter Wolfs <P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.Gsu.EDU!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <18366.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 07:24:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

>  Just to fuel the CFC fire a bit...let's not forget that Dupont's patent on
>Freon runs out in a couple of years, thus anyone would have been able
>to manufacture it.

When was Freon invented. In Australia at least patents last 20 years. I
thought CFCs had been around since the 1930's. If so the patent conspiracy
theory is false.

Does anyone actually know and is prepared to tell me for free? Otherwise I
guess I need to to a lexus/nexus patent search (and pay).

Dr. Peter J. Wolfs                      [=---=]
Electrical Engineering                    \o/
Central Queensland University              X
Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
Australia
Tel +61 79 30 9599
Fax +61 79 30 9382


Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply -Reply


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:29 EDT 1995
Article: 6121 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: universal energies/forces
Message-ID: <182.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:08:53 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 8
Status: O
X-Status: 

The conservative gravitational field of the earth acts as a temporary
storage medium for radiant solar energy, allowing it to be converted
into the kinetic energy of wind.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>
Re: universal energies/forces


From r.bahm@ieee.org Fri Apr 14 20:35:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6122 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!rahul.net!a2i!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Ray Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: More NiCad Questions
Date: 10 Apr 1995 18:46:04 GMT
Organization: Engineering International Inc., Public Internet Access
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <3mbudc$arm@mack.rt66.com>
References: <3m6ph9$rvr@finzi.ccinet.ab.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pma19.rt66.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

jbulmer@ccinet.ab.ca (Jim Bulmer) wrote:


>What depth of discharge (DOD) is recommended? One book says the shallower the
>better, <30% best. The other 2 say you can fully discharge without damage.
>What does the DOD vs. life-expectancy curve look like?
>What is the best charge current/voltage?
>Do Nicads benefit from equilization charging?
>Because the KOH electrolyte is not part of the reaction, I assume Nicads don't give
>off gas when charging. Is this true? Can they be put indoors safely?

I have been in a similar position to Jim's, of having to 
evaluate used NiCds from different sources.  My experience has
generally been very good.  

BE AWARE that I am talking about the larger batteries with
liquid electrlyte which is refillable.  Not the small sealed
sintered plate batteries.

I've found that the best place to get the right answers is
from the engineering department of the original manufacturer.
A telephone call is rather inexpensive, compared to the 
cost of batteries.  Different batteries are designed with
different uses in mind, and hence the charge/dischearge rates 
and other parameters will be different.

The used NiCds which I've dealt with have always been fully
discharged when I recieved them.  Often completely dry.  I
then had to add distilled water or electrolyte to get them to
work properly.  One manufacturer told me that they recommmended
fully DIScharging their batteries if they are to be unused
for a long period. 

The NiCds do not have the life limiting features which cause
the lead-acid batteries we are familiar with to fail.  All
the failures which I have seen in NiCds have been related to
maltreatment or physical damage. (Broken cases, destruction
due to overheating, etc...)

> Are Nicads more efficient (Ah out vs. Ah in) than lead-acids?
> Does efficiency change as capacity drops with age, or do they just store less energy?

Many factors affect the efficiency of all battery types, the
way they are operated probably has more to do with their actual
efficiency than the batteries themselves.  Follow the 
manufacturer's recommendations for best results.

> How can I test the condition of my Nicads, especially if deep or total discharge is
> not recommended?

The only way I know of the really test this type of battery is
to put it through several charge/discharge cycles and measure
the performance carefully while doing it.  It's a lot of work
and most people just don't bother.  If it works in your 
application, use it.  If not don't.


> A local battery shop has offered to recondition the batteries for $25 per cell (5 times
> what they cost me). Is it worth it?

I would be skeptical, unless they had demonstrated to me their
experience.

> What should be done to recondition nicads?

Make sure the electrolyte is in good condition, that the
cells themselves are in good physical condition, and there
are no electrical shorts.  Then run them through charge/
discharge cycles - ask the manufacturer how to do this.

> Will reconditioning regain lost capacity?

Possibly.

> How often should nicads be reconditioned?

When they appear to be performing poorly.

> How can I tell if the electrolyte needs to be changed?

There is no good answer I know of to this.  One way is to
try it and see what happens to a few cells.  Note that some
of the batteries have had a thin film of oil (mineral oil)
on top of the electrlyte to help prevent evaporation.  Again
ask the manufacturer how they were designed to be used.

Ray Bahm



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6123 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: universal energies/forces
Message-ID: <19526.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:04:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Date:    Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:18:20 GMT
>From:    DaveHatunen <netcom.com!hatunen@MATH.UCR.EDU>
>Subject: Re: universal energies/forces
[snip]
>That's stretching your original statement a bit about the conservative
>gravitational field being the storage medium for the solar input since
>you've gone a step further and mostly allowed it to be stored as heated
>earth and stuff first, but OK. Everyone pretty much knows that warm air
>rises. And the weather guy on the 7:00 news is always explaining about
>this stuff.
>
>This is certainly not profound. What's your point?

My first response to this thread was an attempt to make a clean and
concise end to what threatened to become a runaway. It didn't quite
turn out as I intended.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@ozemail.com.au>
Re:  universal energies/forces


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr 14 20:35:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6124 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Electrolysis as an energy source ??
Message-ID: <hatunenD6t04A.7CL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <2383.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 05:19:22 GMT
Lines: 34
Sender: hatunen@netcom16.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <2383.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
HUGHES, JOHN E <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

[The following paragraph is my words. It's good netiquette to give
proper attribution.]

>Since hydrogen production by electrolysis requires the input of more
>energy than can be generated by eventual re-oxidation, it scarcely
>qualifies as a form of "renewable" energy. It is, though, a method of
>storing_ and _distributing_ energy. I have seen no figures that would
>justify a claim that it is, in general, a _good_ way to do these
>things.

[The following are your words.]

>Could a windmill be used on a farm to produce hydrogen, which would
>later be burned to dry corn (which must be dried before storage). The
>advantage is that natural gas would not be needed to dry the corn.

A great many things are possible. Whether they are worth doing is a
far more interesting and complex question.

You cold also collect and store the methane from last year's silage.
Methane is easier to store than hydrogen. A lot easier.

>From an economic standpoint, the question becomes whether the capital
costs of the collection and storage equipment, and the required
maintenance, justify not using LNG or the local gas company's gas.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From Ians@Microserve.com Fri Apr 14 20:35:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6125 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ians@Microserve.com (Ians)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!microserve.com!IANS
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: looking for info on wind power
Message-ID: <95041032751@microserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:05:51
Reply-To: Ians@Microserve.com (Ians)
Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)380-INET 
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

A  year or so ago ,i moved to a rural area where the wind is very consistent.
Generally between 6-40mph.I am also served by a rural electric co-op
that is getting rich from me.I am looking for suggestions on somewhat
reliable wind generators(that don't need bruches every week)that will operate
within these wind velocities.Thank You for any assistance.Either reply here or
e-mail.



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From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Apr 14 20:35:40 EDT 1995
Article: 6126 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: synchronous inverters
Date: 13 Apr 1995 03:48:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <3mil0j$ksd@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
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Status: O
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>From this morning's email...

>I'm sure the principle is simple.

I think so... It's sort of a backwards lamp dimmer... If these things are
more expensive today than a normal inverter, there is something out of whack.
I think these are regularly used with PVs in Germany...

Here's a simple circuit:

      ------------------------
      |          |           |    Tp and Tm are 4 triacs in a full wave
      |  +       |           |    bridge. There is a current-limiting
     DC  Vdc     Tp +    -   Tm   coil in series with the 120V connection,
   source        |--120VAC---|    not shown...
      |  -       Tm          Tp
      |          |           |    The DC source could be 12 Volts, but the
      ------------------------    circuit is cheaper and more efficient if
                                  the DC source is or is converted to a
				  higher voltage, eg 120VDC. This allows 
        - -                       using lower current, cheaper triacs, or
     / Toff  \                    higher power from the same triacs. A suitable
Vdc/---------- \                  triac might be the 40 Amp 2N5445 made by 
 /Xp             \                Motorola, which costs about $5.
..............................................
                    \Xm            /
-Vdc    --------------\----------/
                        \ Toff /
                           - - 

When the 120VAC sine wave is less than the DC source voltage, in the
positive half-cycle of the sine wave, triacs Tp are both triggered on,
by a control circuit, not shown above, during time Xp. The earlier in
the cycle that they are turned on, the more power is drawn from the DC source.
When the AC voltage rises above the DC voltage, the triacs turn off.

On the negative half cycle of the sine wave, triacs Tm turn on during
time Xm, when the AC voltage is less negative than the DC voltage, and triacs
Tm turn off during the part of the cycle marked Toff, when the AC voltage
becomes more negative than the DC voltage.

So there you have it, $20 worth of triacs to feed about 40 Amps x 120VDC
to the AC line, about half the time, ie the above circuit sends about 2 kW
of power back to the power company, making the meter run backwards.

(It would send 4 kW at 220VAC.) You might make the coil by winding some
heavy copper wire around a loop made of iron pipe, with an air gap. The
coil/choke needs to be large enough to protect the triacs from overcurrent
and limit the harmonic distortion at the AC interface to less than 5%.

This circuit needs some fuses and other safety features, to keep from
energizing the power line when the power line is off, and some control/load
matching features, perhaps including a microprocessor, for PV panel or
windmill power point tracking, and some lightning protection and radio
interference protection, but it is really a lot simpler and cheaper in
principle than a normal inverter, and you don't need any batteries at all...

It does require some fussing to make it work, but a very talented
electronic person could build one in his/her basement, altho someone who
designs lamp dimmers or motor speed controls or switching power supplies
or inverters every day would have a much easier time of making it work. 

I'm increasingly drawn to the heretical idea that what you choose to do
with the power line, once it comes into your house, is your business, which
is pretty much how things work with the phone line now, vs. 20 years ago...

Nick



From mcfaddp@westminster.ac.uk Fri Apr 14 20:35:42 EDT 1995
Article: 6127 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!pcl!mcfaddp
From: mcfaddp@westminster.ac.uk (Pamm McFadden)
Subject: National Solar Energy Conference
Message-ID: <D6yqtr.B4u@westminster.ac.uk>
Sender: Pamm McFadden 
Organization: University of Westminster
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 07:44:14 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

I posted information about the upcoming conference, and ASES (the American
Solar Energy Society, who organizes the conference), let me know that 
they were getting responses!  They also wanted me to post a few other 
things that they are getting questions about.  The conference is July
15 - 20 in Minneapolis.  For more information, use this email address:
B
D
C
bch@csn.net                                                           

(sorry about the mess that I just left - I am not doing very well with this 
vi editor).

Anyway, for those of you that are interested in earth sheltered stuff, there
is a lot in M/St.P.  I have seen the initial conference announcement and there
will be interfacing between the conference and the Underground Space Center.

So get ahold of Becky (bch) if you need any other information!

Pamm McFadden

t


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr 14 20:35:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6128 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: How is charcoal made?
Message-ID: <hatunenD6tp7D.GrL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <19871.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:21:12 GMT
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In article <19871.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
David R. Smith <af017@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>I related question is what exactly is meant by "activated"
>charcoal which seems to be the one used in most types of
>filter systems.
>Does it have an electric charge or something, and made from
>only certain woods, etc.

Charcoal is very adsorptive. Simply put, this means molecules of other
substances stick to its surface very easily. Charcoal is also very
porous. Even a very small chunk has a very, very large surface area if
you add up the interior surfaces of all the pores. This means that a
small amount of charcoal can take up a large amount of stuff like
contaminants, such as water impurities. And charcoal is a principle
constituent of gas masks.

Once a chunk of charcoal has adsorbed as much as it can hold, it
becomes inactive at adsorption. You activate it by following the
process used to make it in the first place: raise it to high heat away
from oxygen, driving off all the stuff it adsorbed. It is then
activated charcoal (as is new charcoal fresh out of the kiln).

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Apr 14 20:35:45 EDT 1995
Article: 6129 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: universal energies/forces
Message-ID: <hatunenD6tpB0.Gyv@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <182.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 14:23:23 GMT
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Sender: hatunen@netcom14.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <182.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Robin van Spaandonk  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>The conservative gravitational field of the earth acts as a temporary
>storage medium for radiant solar energy, allowing it to be converted
>into the kinetic energy of wind.

Um. The radiant energy of the sun is stored by raising the temperature
of stuff on earth, like sea water and ground soil. And pavement, and
stuff.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 14 20:35:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6130 of alt.energy.renewable
From: kankar@agni.ernet.in
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Subscribe
Message-ID: <20856.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 06:18:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Please include me in the list-serve mailing list.

Thanks,
Kankar Bhattacharya
Indira Gandhi Institute of Development Research, Bombay
e.mail: kankar@agni.ernet.in

Subscribe


From pmclaasn@ING.SUN.AC.ZA Wed Apr 19 11:02:05 EDT 1995
Article: 6140 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!quagga.ru.ac.za!ucthpx!itu1.sun.ac.za!k209.cheming.sun.ac.za!pmclaasn
From: pmclaasn@ING.SUN.AC.ZA (The rat)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 16:58:23
Organization: University of Stellenbosch, South Africa
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I just read a probably anciant discussion by a few scientest on a material 
called Lumeloid developped by Alvin M. Marks, Athol, MA. 

Mr. Marks claimed that his material was 80% effective at converting solar 
energy to electricity. Does anyone know what happened to this man and his 
machine?

Also, is there any connection between this material and the new material 
metioned in the Popular Science (Jan 1995) with an apparent 
efficiency of 70%?

Thanks for any info.

Pieter Claassen


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:07 EDT 1995
Article: 6170 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Jordan Wilkerson <chille@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternative Fuels?
Message-ID: <16294.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 20:39:08 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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>       My biggest question is about the actual advantage of a hybrid
> powered vehicle.  It seems that each power system reduces the advantages
> of the other.  For example, each system has to haul around the weight of
> the one that is not being used.  Is the idea that people would use electric
> only most of the time and use the ICE only for occasional long trips?
>
>                               Kevin Riley
There are two configurations of hybrid vehicles:  Series and Parallel

A Series system is basically an electric vehicle with a motor/generator
set used as a range extension.  The simplest is very inefficient...

the liquid fuel must be converted into mechanical energy, then
electrical, then Chemical for battery storage.  Furthermore, it must be
converted back to electrical and mechanical to the drive wheels.

Our System is a Parallel Hybrid.  The best description of our application
of the hybrid drivetrain is a "Power Assist" Hybrid.  By literal
definition, this means one of the hybrid drive components will assist the
power of the other.  The previously described series system is an energy
assist, if you will, since the motor/generator supplies the extra energy
to extend the range of the vehicle.

The Series hybrid is an electric vehicle, foremost.  The electric motor
must propel the vehicle at all times.  Our parallel system has the
electric motor and the ICE mechanically in parallel, and either could
drive the transmission.

So here is how the drivetrain interacts

        Our Geo metro ICE is configured to drive the transmission at all
times, but is certainly under-powered for the over-all vehicle
requirements.  Any time that little engine can't perform the way the
driver wants (hill climbing and fast accelerations) the electric motor
kicks in and provides the extra requested power (power assist).  Any time
the driver is not requesting this extra power, the motor is used as a
generator to recharge the batteries.

        The electric motor and ICE are coupled upstream of the
transmission, Subaru ECVT.  The ECVT allows the engine to run at an
optimum RPM.   This helps reduce the number of transients which produce
the most emissions and usually consume the largest fuel rate.

        This allows us to "Load level" the ICE to optimize its overall
performance.  Since it is the most inefficient part of the drivetrain,
any time you can double its overall efficiency, the entire drivetrain
efficiency is nearly doubled.  By allowing the engine to operate most of
the time at its optimum RPM under a set load, (lowest bsfc point) we
maximize the fuel economy.

        The ECVT maintains the RPMs of the ICE, but the electric motor
maintains the load.  If the engine has too much load to be efficient,
the electric motor will add power to the drivetrain which reduces the
load on the ICE.  Likewise, if the ICE doesn't have have enough load
to be efficient, the electric motor will act as a generator to increase
the load on the ICE while storing that energy in the batteries.

        The individual systems can power the vehicle by themselves;
however, neither will give the performance or the efficiency that is
desired.  A parallel hybrid is designed to run in a hybrid mode all of the
time.  The components work together to optimize the entire system as a whole.

Last year's results:
59 mpg highway
30 mpg city
1994 Emission levels

These mpg values are twice that of the original vehicle and the emissions
were achieved without much effort.

expected this year (June):
80+ mpg highway
50+ mpg city
ULEV emission levels

Any other questions??

Jordan Wilkerson

University of Maryland
Hybrid Electric Vehicle Research
Project Manager
chille@eng.umd.edu

"Ignorance Breeds Fear"


Re: Alternative Fuels?                                                       R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:09 EDT 1995
Article: 6171 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Sanders <rsanders@ALB.ASCTMD.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <12775.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 04:21:16 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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> If I strongly believed in the correctness of the CFC/Ozone theories,
>I'd support the legitimacy of the anti-CFC movement.

  Just to fuel the CFC fire a bit...let's not forget that Dupont's patent on
Freon runs out in a couple of years, thus anyone would have been able
to manufacture it.

  If anyone believes that Dupont wouldn't stoop to creating a crisis for it's
benefit, I suggest you recall William Randoph Hurst (newspaper empire
and owner of paper mills), Dow Chemical, and one other (Monsanto?)
who created the campaign against hemp in the 50s as all stood to lose
money because hemp could be used as paper, without major bleaching
of the pulp (trees, and chemicals), and was very strong (thus taking
money away from the newly created nylon).  Hemp was considered a
major survival crop by many including Thomas Jefferson, George
Washington and the others that wrote the Constitution of the United
States on hemp paper.

  Then there is also the problem with most of the rabbits in southern Chile
being blind...

  Bob

Re: Energy Industry Splits on Warming -Reply -Reply


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:11 EDT 1995
Article: 6172 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@ATUVM.ATU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!news.media.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re[2]: stratospheric ozone
Message-ID: <9802.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 17:43:04 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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>From Harry:


I'd sure be surprised NOT to find traces of CFCs in the upper atmosphere
(just as I'd expect to find trace remnants of many man made and natural
materials there).  The question is not whether we find traces of it there
or not, but (1) is it present in quantities significantly enough over
other Cl sources (volcanic, combustion, salt water decomposition, etc.)
to be of special concern, (2) are we sure that we're seeing CFCs of
surface origin, and not space and aircraft exhaust/debris, and (3) has our
transport analysis yet yielded a convincing mechanism that can
mathematically account for the migration of reasonably heavy molecules
like CFCs to the upper atmosphere in significant quantity to account for
current observation measurements?

                                        Harry C.
And my (partial) response:

Harry, time does not allow me to due justice to but the last of your questions.
Transfer of relatively high molecular weigh compounds such as cfcs to the
stratosphere occurs due to dynamic mixing of the troposphere. The negative lapse
rate (colder at the top, hotter at the bottom) means that air warmed at the
surface is constantly rising through the atmospheric column, expanding, cooling
and thence falling.  This creates considerable mixing throughout the
troposphere.  Transfer to the stratosphere is then just a matter of
equilibration from one to the other.  (Think of your average spring
thunderstorm- in a matter of minutes huge volumes of surface air are transported
directly into the stratosphere)  Because of the relative insolubility of cfcs
they are not removed from the atmosphere by precipitation and because of their
relative photochemical stability they are not removed by reaction. The result
is long lifetimes, on the order of several decades to over a century depending
on which one you're talking about.

Evidence of this mixing also comes from sampling studies. I recall a paper which
showed that sampling of the air column showed absolutely no trend (up to twenty
kilometers) in the concentration of Xenon, mw 131. Simply put, the atmosphere is
not partitioned on the basis of molecular weight.  If it did we would all
suffocate due to the heavier carbon dioxide underlying the lighter oxygen.

As to the first two questions  1. yes, anthropogenic chlorine is significant.
Virtually all natural chlorine in the atmosphere exists as chloride ion or
hydrogen chloride, both of which are water soluble and therefore scrubbed from
the atmosphere quite rapidly

2. If the stratospheric cfcs are due only to spacecraft waste, We have a hell of
a time explaining where the greater than 1 Tg per year of cfcs are going if not
to the atmosphere.  I would think that calculations based on the known
stratospheric concentrations of cfcs, times the mass of the stratosphere would
show a total mass which couldn't be accounted for by any "active transfer"
process.



I promise next fall (during a long awaited sabbatical) to take the time to give
complete answers with reference citations.  I guess us generalist types need you
detail guys to keep us legit.


  Bob  (who doesn't take the designation hippy as pejorative)
Re[2]: stratospheric ozone                                                   R


From bigdog@netins.net Wed Apr 19 11:02:12 EDT 1995
Article: 6173 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!clpd-newsserver!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!s2196
From: bigdog@netins.net (bigdog)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: The Charcoal Industry
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 21:38:03 GMT
Organization: INS Info Services 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3mk5jv$oqi@insosf1.infonet.net>
References: <7274.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: s2196.infonet.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <7274.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
   wesley price <wesley@PRICE.III.NET> wrote:
>I'd start at the Thomas's register in the library unless 
some one has an
>online version somewhere.

Try...


http://www.thomasregister.com


bigdog@netins.net             http://www.netins.net/showcase/bigdog


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:13 EDT 1995
Article: 6174 of alt.energy.renewable
From: BOB ALLEN 0310 <PSBA@ATUVM.ATU.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: cfcs and dupont
Message-ID: <13410.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:22:43 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 17
Status: O
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>Even if the patents are expired, by hyping this CFC/ozone hole
>theory as fact, DuPont stands to make BILLIONS of dollars that
>they wouldn't have otherwise.


I guess I'm missing something in this particular conspiracy.
Why does dupont stand to make billions of dollars that they wouldn't
have otherwise? The replacements- HCFCs- have been around as long as
the cfcs themselves.


================================================================
 Bob Allen                     psba@atuvm.atu.edu
 Professor of Chemistry
 Arkansas Tech University      501-968-0310
 Russellville, Ar 72801
cfcs and dupont                                                              R


From coyote@buffnet.net Wed Apr 19 11:02:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6175 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!clpd-newsserver!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!buffnet2.buffnet.net!usenet
From: coyote@buffnet.net (Bill Smythe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: LED replacement lamps
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 21:28:55 GMT
Organization: BuffNET
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3mjneg$h39@buffnet2.buffnet.net>
References: <21237.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3mc079$gjc@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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X-Status: 

shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid) wrote:
>Your local Radio Shack now stocks those big LEDs, they only cost a few
>bucks. Warm up your solering iron and have fun, they really put out a
>lot of light - now if we could get them to put out white light ...
>
>Steen
The April issue of wired had an article about blue LEDs. Aparently, some company in Japan just
recently succeeded in making blue LEDs that put out any amount of light and lasted longer than a
couple miliseconds. They mentioned that this made white light from and LED source possible for the
first time. Of course you need more than one (although they might be able to integrate several different
wavelength LEDs in real close proxcimity on a wafer and put them out in a single package). Apparently,
LEDs are considerably more efficient than incandecent bulbs and last much longer than even compact
flourecents. Sounds great-- I want one in my mag light.

Bill



From billb@eskimo.com Wed Apr 19 11:02:16 EDT 1995
Article: 6176 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: billb@eskimo.com (William Beaty)
Subject: MRA free energy hobby project!
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
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Sender: usenet@eskimo.com (News User Id)
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The MRA still lives.  The following circuit is supposed to have 
befuddling characteristics.  Build it and debunk the claims!  Or
become one of the befuddled...

>From KEELYNET BBS, 214-324-3501, Texas USA
*******************************************************************
Message 12382                              DATE/TIME: 04/07/95 11:37
>From   : JOEL MCCLAIN
To     : ALL
Subject: Hodowanec Schematic
Folder : A, "Public Mail"

...something for the weekend project folks...
 
 
The MiniMRA as designed by by Greg Hodowanec from the Intenet files.
 
 
                      C1
       Ú--------¿
       ³sig gen ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄ´ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿     ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
       ³÷ 80-   ³               ³     ³         ³
       ³ 140KHz ³               ³  º  ³         Û
       À----Â---Ù         L1    ²  º  ² L2      Û  R1
            ³                   ²  º  ²         Û
            ³                   ²  º  ²         ³
            ³                   ³  º  ³         ³
            ³                   ³     ³         ³
            ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ     ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
 
C1 = 680pf silver-mica 5%, 500V (dipped mica) ... only stacked layer
     capacitors will work ... rolled capacitors will NOT work.
 
L1 and L2 are primary and secondary of stepdown transformer which is
   marked "5.0 UH, 5:1", and with part # PE-8204.  Source not known.
   Try whatever you have...that's what Greg did.
 
R1 = carbon resistor, normally 600 ê to match sig gen, although LED or
     other load device can be used.
 
Core of transformer is ferrite...very important!
 
Nonlinear impedance increases as frequency is increased.  Circuit gain
decreases to ÷ unity at 80 KHz, goes up to 500%-1000% at 130-140KHz.
Listen for capacitor to "sing" as it becomes active as a piezo in the
high gain frequency range.
 
Output power will vary with time of day. ie, higher in the early A.M.
High Q of circuit will result in high voltages across piezo and pri-
mary, relative to source voltage.  For example, I've measured 70VAC
across them with 14 volts applied.  Use appropriate care.
 
Enjoy!



(MRA = Magnetic Resonance Amp)
-- 
....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:17 EDT 1995
Article: 6177 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Jordan Wilkerson <chille@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!news.media.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!olivea!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!auspex-gw.auspex.com!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternative Fuels?
Message-ID: <13861.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 19:31:23 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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> I am also looking for practical ways to run my motorcycle safely on
> renewable methane, hydrogen, ethanol or methanol. I need a supplier of
> safety pressure tanks and gas carburation conversions. Any offers?
>
>  -- ++ +M.+ ++$

We are using methanol (M85) in our hybrid vehicle, as well as several other
vehicles.

The characteristics of methanol and ethanol are very similar, though I
have never worked with the latter.  M85 is a saver liquid than gasoline
so there really is very little safety required for its use of over the
conventional Gasoline system.  The only concern is the engineering to
optimize the combustion and energy conversion.  We are running a Geo
Metro, 3-cylinder, one liter engine at about 12:1 compression with very
good results.  Our emission level should approach ULEVs and we expect to
achieve 80 mpg gasoline equivalent this year.

        Our fuel delivery system includes a Bosch M85 fuel pump
supplying a 55psi fuel rail and multi-port injectors (designed by Seimens).
We purchased a Haltech fuel management controller which allows dynamic
and real-time adjustment of several parameters for tuning.  The controller
also allows for open or closed loop.  A Jacobs spark ignition allows for
the right spark energy on every ignition.

We have not ever tried a carberated system with M85, so I can't give any
info.  You might try EPA.  Try Matt Dorson :

        DORSON.MATTHEW@epamail.epa.gov

Jordan Wilkerson

University of Maryland
Hybrid Electric Vehicle Research
Project Manager
chille@eng.umd.edu

"Ignorance Breeds Fear"


Re: Alternative Fuels?                                                       R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:19 EDT 1995
Article: 6178 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Gary Beckwith <garyb@EFN.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen energy?
Message-ID: <22255.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 23:35:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Hydrogen is not an energy source.  It is a storage medium.  In order to
get hydrogen, you must input energy.  Yes, hydrogen will replace the
other storage mediums.  It will be used to run vehicles and such, but
instead of drilling for it, as we do with oil, we have to input energy.
If we use renewable energy sources such as solar power to extract pure
hydrogen out of water (or any of several other sources of hydrogen) we
close the loop and have a truly sustainable cycle of energy use.

Gary

Re: Hydrogen energy?


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Wed Apr 19 11:02:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6179 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!news.media.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!olivea!rahul.net!a2i!news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!lamarck.sura.net!darwin.sura.net!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Where are the Earthships?
Date: 13 Apr 1995 20:01:09 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 21
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I'd love to see an Earthship (houses built of adobe and old tires). Are
there any places I can go and see some? I have heard there are several 
somewhere around Taos, NM and in South-west Colorrado, but have no specifics.
Does anybody give tours?

Are there any in the more eastern part of the country?

Thanks

---
Steen Hansen                e-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist         (614) 292-9317 (Stores/Food: Tue/Fri)
Ohio State University       (614) 292-5174 (Dentistry: Mon/Wed/Thu)

Save a tree, use e-mail. 
#include <std_disclaimer.h> all opinions are my own, etc...
-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid)    E-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist,    The Ohio State University
There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the earth as if it was 
a business in liquidation.  -- Herman Dailey, quoted in "Earth in the Balance"


From dfs@xmission.xmission.com Wed Apr 19 11:02:21 EDT 1995
Article: 6181 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!clpd-newsserver!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.xmission.com!xmission!dfs
From: dfs@xmission.xmission.com (D.F.S.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What are ; Turgo and Pelton turbine wheel ????
Date: 13 Apr 1995 21:42:40 GMT
Organization: XMission Public Access Internet (801 539 0900)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: xmission.xmission.com
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Gaetan Mailloux (ba221@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:


: What are the difference between a Turgo wheel and a Pelton wheel in a
: hydroelectric turbine, there's some use in 12 volt water turbine. And about
: the efficiency of each of these two kind of wheel, and which one are the
: best for low head water fall... etc...

The idea with an impulse turbine is to have the water exit the buckets in 
the exact oposite direction that it entered at at zero velocity.
this is not 100% possible but you can come pretty close.

In a turgo wheel the water exits to the far side of the wheel as the jet
in a pelton the jet hits the wheel straight on and splits in half
returning in the direction it came.

Turgo
      ^  bucket with a single bowl
     / \
  jet   Eexit dirction 

Pelton
      ^^   2 bowl bucket, the jet hits it in the exact center
      |||        Ascii is such a pain for this stuff
 out->|||<-out
       | 
      Jet

The turgo runs at a higher speed for a given diam and head than the pelton.
a turgo is a few percent more efficient then the pelton.

Neither is best for a low head application.
probably the best and cheapest turbine for a low head application is a
reaction type turbine called a cross flow turbine.

the university of oregon did some studies and built a bunch of these things.
the design they ended up with can be built from pipe and plate by anybody 
with a few basic metalworking tools and an interest in doing it.

The part of the study I saw that was included in another book had enough
information for anyone with no prior experience and elementary
math to figure the correct size and built one.
They claimed about 80% eff.
The eff. claim for the impulse turbines is in the mid 90% range.

Marc Christensen



From wlauzon@aol.com Wed Apr 19 11:02:23 EDT 1995
Article: 6182 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: wlauzon@aol.com (WLauzon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: PV System Passive Tracker vs Active Tracker Study
Date: 13 Apr 1995 20:34:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 7
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3mkfuk$e5h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3mj4pl$qld@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
Reply-To: wlauzon@aol.com (WLauzon)
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   Zomeworks did their own study on this a while back if I remember
correctly, and it turned out that you lost less than 10% of the total
energy available.  The first 2-3 hours of morning are very low energy -
about 80% of your energy comes between 10 AM and 2PM.
Warren Lauzon, Solar Electric Specialties Co, Phoenix.  800-964-8881 
602-877-2317
FAX: 602-872-9215


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:28 EDT 1995
Article: 6183 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Bretislav Beranek <bret@CAM.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What are ; Turgo and Pelton turbine wheel ????
Message-ID: <4321.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:15:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 33
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
> The turgo runs at a higher speed for a given diam and head than the pelton.
> a turgo is a few percent more efficient then the pelton.
>
> Neither is best for a low head application.
> probably the best and cheapest turbine for a low head application is a
> reaction type turbine called a cross flow turbine.
>
> the university of oregon did some studies and built a bunch of these things.
> the design they ended up with can be built from pipe and plate by anybody
> with a few basic metalworking tools and an interest in doing it.
>
> The part of the study I saw that was included in another book had enough
> information for anyone with no prior experience and elementary
> math to figure the correct size and built one.
> They claimed about 80% eff.
> The eff. claim for the impulse turbines is in the mid 90% range.
>
> Marc Christensen
>
>
> Re: What are ; Turgo and Pelton turbine wheel ????
>


I doubt very much that you would be able to make cross flow turbine
in your garage and achieve 80% efficiency. There are two well known
companies in Europe,  manufacturing cross flow turbines. Companies
Cink (Czech Republic) and Ossberger (Germany) have installed
hundredth of cross flow turbines. Typical turbine output is around
0.5 MW, but 5 kW installation can also be economical.

Re: What are ; Turgo and Pelton turbine wheel ????                           R


From windy@pgh.nauticom.net Wed Apr 19 11:02:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6184 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!pgh!slip0006
From: windy@pgh.nauticom.net (Michelle Hammel)
Subject: Looking for high efficiencyA/C generator head 2-3 kw
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: slip0006.nauticom.net
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I am wanting to find a generator unit for a prototype wind unit under 
construction in western P.a any help app... michelle


From mms@aretha.jax.org Wed Apr 19 11:02:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6185 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Malcolm Sanders <malcolm@ARETHA.JAX.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Message-ID: <29791.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 19:07:34 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: mms@aretha.jax.org
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Regarding Alvin Marks, LUMELOID and efficiency:

Here is a relevant excerpt from "Practical Photovoltaics, 3rd
edition" by Dr. Richard Komp, which will be appearing in print in a
month or two.  It is particularly useful to be very sure what you
mean, when you use the term, "efficiency" in connection with
photovoltaic devices

-Malcolm Sanders.


The following is from "Practical Photovoltaics, 3rd Edition" by
Richard Komp, excerpted with permission from the author.
------

        Recently, Alvin Marks, the inventer of 3-D movies, has been
working on a new concept in an organic solar cell.  He has been
taking the thin polarizing plastic films used in those cheap paper
glasses we wore to watch the movies, and changing the formulation of
the linear polymers to make the films electrically conducting.  The
idea is: the films absorb virtually all the light of a particular
polarization and produce free electrons to be captured at an
electrode strip on the film.  Two films with crossed polarization
will absorb all the incoming light, leading to a high quantum
efficiency.
        Alvin Marks started a small company in Western Mass. called
Phototherm, Inc to work on this idea. (Apparently he now uses the
name Advanced Research Development, Inc. as his working company with
an unclear connection to Phototherm.)  His basic idea is feasible
from a scientific point of view and, with the help of a couple of
small grants and some research assistance from Argonne National
Labs, he has succeed in producing the conductive polarizing polymer
films but has seen no photovoltaic effect yet.  The tricky steps
seem to be those of incorporating the necessary diode junction into
the polymer chains using charge transfer dyes, and arranging a path
for the electrons to get to the collecting electrodes without
shorting out the microcells.
        Another embodiment of his idea, using microelectronics
techniques to fabricate the multitude of submicron sized dipoles
onto an inorganic substrate, is being tried at the nearby University
of Lowell.  This system should produce a working device but will
probably be too expensive for ordinary use.
        Alvin Marks has been claiming very low cost and high
efficiency for his LUMILOID polymer solar cell.  While the plastic
film cells will probably be inexpensive to produce, he has confused
quantum efficiency, which can be very high for organic dye
molecules, with device energy efficiency, which will probably remain
low.  However, an energy efficiency of only 5% would be
commercially useful in a simple device.
        Care must be taken to distinguish between quantum
efficiency, which is the number of current electrons created and
delivered to the front contacts (of a solar cell) compared to the
number of photons falling on the solar cell; and energy efficiency,
which is the total electrical power output compared to the input
power flux of light energy.  For example, a good crystalline silicon
cell may have a quantum efficiency of 85% but a total energy
efficiency of 19% because the high energy blue light photons only
produce the same energy in electrons as the infrared photons do.



Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency


From bjork@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Wed Apr 19 11:02:32 EDT 1995
Article: 6186 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!gwu.edu!not-for-mail
From: bjork@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Craig Steven Weissman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SURVEY: Energy Attitudes
Date: 16 Apr 1995 00:36:35 -0400
Organization: The George Washington University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.164.127.252
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I am conducting a survey on attitudes towards renewable resources for a 
physics class; if you could fill it out and mail your response to 
<bjork@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> it would be greatly appreciated.

1.  How would you define renewable resources?


2.  Do you support increased spending on renewable resources?


3.  What would be the best allocation of those funds (e.g. advertising to 
promote use of renewable resources, research into new technologies, 
promotion of accessibility of renewable resources)?


4.  Do you recycle?
	4a.  If so, what do you recycle (e.g. cans, bottles, newspapers)?
	4b.  If so, how often do you recycle (e.g. never, sometimes, 
		often, always)?
	4c.  If so, for how long have you been recycling, and has the
		amount you recycle changed?


5.  Why do you recycle (e.g law enforced, peer pressure, environmental 
concerns)?


6.  Have concerns about the greenhouse effect/global warming changed your 
views about renewable resources vs. fossils fuels?


7.  Do you make an effort to conserve energy?  If so, how (e.g. turn off 
lights, install insulation)?


8.  Would you use renewable energy (e.g. solar, geothermal), even if they 
were more expensive than non-renewable energy?





From walle@explorer.sasknet.sk.ca Wed Apr 19 11:02:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6187 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news1.digital.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!news.sasknet.sk.ca!explorer.sasknet.sk.ca!not-for-mail
From: walle@explorer.sasknet.sk.ca (edwin wallace)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: WHAT are the Earthships?
Date: 15 Apr 1995 23:26:03 -0600
Organization: ExplorerPlus
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NNTP-Posting-Host: explorer.sasknet.sk.ca
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Having just found this newsgroup, this is probably an unforgivable
intrusion.   
But the good manners I once had, :-) have given way to brattish curiosity. 
Anticipating your tolerance and generosity, I thank you in advance. 
  
So . . . like serious, I mean . . really - What are they? 
 
     _/_/_/_/      _/      _/  _/  _/ 
    _/            _/      _/  _/  _/ 
   _/_/_/    _/_/_/  _/_/_/   _/_/ 
  _/        _/  _/  _/  _/    _/ 
 _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/  _/_/_/    _/  
  
-- 


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6188 of alt.energy.renewable
From: jdport <jdevenport@LANL.GOV>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Birdkills -- Sagrillo
Message-ID: <6708.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 05:24:21 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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The substance of the article was that yes, there are documented
cases of birdkills in areas of windfarming, but evidently few of
them can be blamed directly or indirectly on the wind machine
rotors and towers per se.  There are groups of dead birds found
anywhere they have migratory paths overhead.
Sagrillo suspects that "birdkills" may be the rallying cry for
some sort of anti-wind power faction, of which the existing
commercial power industry is one.  Using birdkills as a tactic to
arouse fear and suspicion and thus postpone or thwart construction
of wind farms seems to be similar to the environmentalists'
tactics of using the spotted owl in spite of studies  and
individual observation that these owls thrive in woodcut areas,
only this time it appears the established industry may be the
"antis" so far as windpower is concerned.
Home Power has a web page, but they probably don't paste up free
articles from their paid magazine on it.... but you could try and
see if such things pop up on there.
Jim Devenport

Birdkills -- Sagrillo


From hatch@CompuTech.reno.nv.us Wed Apr 19 11:02:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6189 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!satisfied.apocalypse.org!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!news.greatbasin.net!usenet
From: hatch@CompuTech.reno.nv.us (Stephen Hatch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Powered House
Date: 16 Apr 1995 04:42:49 GMT
Organization: Great Basin Internet Services, Reno, NV
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <3mq789$59a@news.greatbasin.net>
References: <17300.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: computech.reno.nv.us
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.2
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <17300.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>, wesley@PRICE.III.NET 
says...
>
>yup
>I wanna know more
>this is great how to DO it
>
>>  I live in Northern Nevada and my house is almost entirely Solar powered.
>>PhotoVoltaics battery stored Inverter driven 120 volt system.
>>It works great.
>>I have thirty feet of 3inch black ABS pipe on the roof covered by clear
>> plexiglass
>>that produces steam if I don't watch it and cool it down.
>>The wood stove heats quite adequately in the dead of winter.
>>What's all the idiotic discussions about??
>>Some of us are already doing it...... not gumming it.
>>Total invested cost is less than $6,000.    And that spent over a two year
>> period.
>>You wanna know more?
>>Stephen Hatch

I guess what I'm saying is:
  I read a lot about this research or that study or xyz funding 
project. It's all alot of nonsense if it doesn't equate to real
circumstances.
  I better start a little sooner.
  O.K.  I'm 54 years old.  I don't mind it in fact I've lived a
lot in this time so far. I've done more things than most people
read about.  Including going back to unr at 48 to get a degree in
CS.  (I love "C" ---- hate Windows)
My point is that some things become absolutely undeniable with time.
This country is about over.  This system is about over.
Because "we" all trusted the experts over the last 80 years and they
lied and cheated you and me for their own gain. Doctors don't cure
they charge.  Lawyers don't council they log billable hrs.
Politicians ...... oh! ....   well you get the point.
Here's the deal.  We're on our own.  If you don't develop your own
methods for power, food, medicine, etc. and stop bowing to the
so called powers that be, and do it fairly soon, you won't get another
chance.    I'm saying that this Govt. and this infrastructure and
this distribution network is now too unwieldy and is about to collapse
from it's own weight.
They tell you cfc's is the problem yet only because Dow's patent on
freon is about to expire. and you believe them about the ozone?
They tell you cigarette smoke first and second hand is causing death
yet the cancer rate has steadily increased since the fiftys along
with the increased use of pesticides.  They advertise with glee
about roundup killing on contact.  and you buy it?
Friends what ever device you can employ right now to produce your
own electricity (1 inverter, batteries, solar panels, wind gen)
DO IT! DO IT NOW!  Not because of the impending colapse, but because
it will save you money.  Right now it will.  Use the money your now
keeping to fund further research to make the existing systems cheaper
better.

My house Trace inverter 2512
6 TelCo rejects (Big Mothas)(Batteries)
18 Kyoceras.    Works great.
Transformer (240 to run the 300' well pump to 2500gal storage)
5gpm 12 volt pump for water pressure.
I laugh at Reno when their lights go out. (quite often)
-Stephen Hatch



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Apr 19 11:02:37 EDT 1995
Article: 6190 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: MRA free energy hobby project!
Date: 17 Apr 1995 05:11:18 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3mtbbm$54o@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <D74C1p.FM@eskimo.com> <hatunenD75y3z.9o@netcom.com>
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DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:

A very nice evaluation of an MRA device... 

I think I'm beginning to understand these things. I wonder how they can be
useful. How about loosely coupling 1 to 3 60 Hz MRAs to the output windings
of an automobile alternator (without the diodes), connected to a windmill, as
an energy source, and connecting the MRA output to the 60 Hz power grid,
somehow, with suitable safety circuitry? It seems to me that the windmill
might be able to synchronize at multiple rotational speeds this way, and still
provide a 60 Hz output at a high voltage...

Nick



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6191 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Anton Simmons <A.D.Simmons@LUT.AC.UK>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: AE Digest - 13 Apr 1995 to 14 Apr 1995 -Reply
Message-ID: <4489.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 09:54:21 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Something is wrong with some part of the system through which these
mailings pass to get to me.  The above named ended part way through the
AoM stuff.  This is extremely tedious but could someone repost the stuff on
PV tracking, please.

Anton.
AE Digest - 13 Apr 1995 to 14 Apr 1995 -Reply


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 19 11:02:40 EDT 1995
Article: 6192 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Peter Wolfs <P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: MRA free energy hobby project!
Message-ID: <21295.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 03:09:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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>The MiniMRA as designed by by Greg Hodowanec from the Intenet files.
>
>

My second year electrical engineering students can ( 8 times out of 10)
recognise this as a fairly trivial series resonant circuit. Any EE who
graduated in the last 100 years knows about this.

Of course you get high output voltages at resonance. You do not however
generate any excess power.

I recently tested a 20 kHz 120 KVA resonant circuit which was part of a
power converter and got it to full capacity with a 500W input. My resonant
elements, the inductor and capacitor, developed instantaneous powers of
120kW which they nearly lossessly interchanged. The loss was in this case
500W. We even have a neat name for the ratio of instantaneous power and
loss, Q or quality factor. I achieved 240 which was pretty good.

PS the aubible sound at resonance is not from the mica capacitor. Mica does
not have a piezoelectric property. It is in fact the ferrite core which has
a magnetostrictive response.


>The MiniMRA as designed by by Greg Hodowanec from the Intenet files.
>
>
>                      C1
>       Z--------?
>       3sig gen CDDDDDD4CDDDDDDD?     ZDDDDDDDDD?
>       3w 80-   3               3     3         3
>       3 140KHz 3               3  :  3         [
>       @----B---Y         L1    2  :  2 L2      [  R1
>            3                   2  :  2         [
>            3                   2  :  2         3
>            3                   3  :  3         3
>            3                   3     3         3
>            @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY     @DDDDDDDDDY
>
>C1 = 680pf silver-mica 5%, 500V (dipped mica) ... only stacked layer
>     capacitors will work ... rolled capacitors will NOT work.
>
>L1 and L2 are primary and secondary of stepdown transformer which is
>   marked "5.0 UH, 5:1", and with part # PE-8204.  Source not known.
>   Try whatever you have...that's what Greg did.
>
>R1 = carbon resistor, normally 600 j to match sig gen, although LED or
>     other load device can be used.
>
>Core of transformer is ferrite...very important!
>
>Nonlinear impedance increases as frequency is increased.  Circuit gain
>decreases to w unity at 80 KHz, goes up to 500%-1000% at 130-140KHz.
>Listen for capacitor to "sing" as it becomes active as a piezo in the
>high gain frequency range.
>
>Output power will vary with time of day. ie, higher in the early A.M.
>High Q of circuit will result in high voltages across piezo and pri-
>mary, relative to source voltage.  For example, I've measured 70VAC
>across them with 14 volts applied.  Use appropriate care.
>
>Enjoy!
>
>
>
>(MRA = Magnetic Resonance Amp)
>--
>....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
>William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
>EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
>Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page
>
>MRA free energy hobby project!

Dr. Peter J. Wolfs                      [=---=]
Electrical Engineering                    \o/
Central Queensland University              X
Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
Australia
Tel +61 79 30 9599
Fax +61 79 30 9382


Re: MRA free energy hobby project!


From clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu Sun May 14 13:40:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6511 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dolphin.upenn.edu!clarker
From: clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu (Roland R Clarke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 9 May 1995 00:09:49 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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Hello to All ...

Would someone share with me and the group,
any *experience* with OTEC ??
Are there any references available ??

with appreciaton
Roland


From pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za Sun May 14 13:40:55 EDT 1995
Article: 6522 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!quagga.ru.ac.za!ucthpx!itu1.sun.ac.za!news
From: pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za (Pieter Claassen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Date: 8 May 1995 09:45:15 GMT
Organization: Chemical Engineering
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3okp7b$drs@itu1.sun.ac.za>
References: <pmclaasn.21.0010F940@ING.SUN.AC.ZA> <3nentc$dhu@linda.teleport.com> <samc-2704952241110001@ip-pdx6-11.teleport.com> <1995May1.173011.9046@etek.chalmers.se> <3o56kn$au4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
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In article <3o56kn$au4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu says...
>
>Please keep this photovoltaic crap OUT of alt.solar.thermal!
>
>Thank you...
>
>Nick

Nick, you shouldn't say thank you, because I think you must be stupid to cling to 
this thermal principle. 

You have cross posted this reply to all the groups that I have read so far. It is 
fine if you think that solar.thermal is the solution (especially since you are 
probably selling it), but most appliances today run on electricity and not water.

If you want to contribute to the standard energy consumption world, create ways to 
supply electricity (like PV) and not hot water.

You comment is also rude and untactfull. There are kids on this group you wish.


Pieter

....Disclaimer.

These views are those of the writer and the Anderson Phsyciatric Ward cannot accept 
responsability for them.



From harti@shb.contrib.de Sun May 14 13:40:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6530 of alt.energy.renewable
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Date: 09 May 1995 19:39:00 +0100
From: harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
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Subject: Re:Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
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Stefan Hartmann (harti@shb.contrib.de) wrote:
: Hi,
: I received this from an "anonymous" friend. Please read it and let me know
: what you think about this theory for the explanation of the TOMI and PM_Square
: effect !


: c) Permanent Magnet Motors
:                     ___________________________
:                   /                             \
:                 /                                 \
:  Mu metal     /                                     \
:  housing    /                                         \
:           /                                             \
:         /                                                 \
:       /                   _______________                   \
:     /                   /    ------->     \                   \
:    |       current    /      B-fields       \                  |
:    |          tube  /           |             \                |
:    |              /             |               \              |
:    |             |    /---------|----------\     |             |
:    |             |  / _______  <--  ________ \   |             |
:    |             |  ||S     N| /-\ |N      S||   |             |
:    |             |  ||_______| \-/ |________||   |             |
:    |             |  \       axis wire        /   |             |
:    |             |    \--------------------/     |             |
:    |              \           rotor              /             |
:    |               \    \                      /               |
:    |                \     \-->               /                 |
:     \                 \ ___________________/                  /
:       \                                                     /
:         \                                                 /
:           \                                             /
:             \                                         /
:               \                                     /
:                 \                                 /
:                   \_____________________________/

: fig.4 magnetic motor with no brushes; top view
: the magnet charges on the rotor are spinning around the axis wire
: in the stationary double circular and opposite rot B fields of
: the wire and the current tube.

Unfortunately, there is no opposite B field inside the current tube due to
the current in the current tube.  The B field due to the tube cancels inside
but does exist outside the tube.

The Jackson text is entirely wrong if it does discuss magnetic fields
without a potential - the electromagnetic 4-potential A always applies to
the conservation of 4-momentum (energy and momentum) by electromagnetic
interactions.  See GRAVITATION by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler.

The simultaneous presence of bare electric and magnetic monopole charges is
required to destroy the 4-potential and allow free energy devices.  I
have found a design for such a device and submitted it for publication in
the spirit of criticism of monopole theory.

--
Michael J. Burns     Contradiction resolution is the stuff of the universe.
mburns@indirect.com  Observers fulfill the apriori need for fallibility.


Here is our reply: ( I received this from my anonymous friend, he is verygoo  
in theory !)


                     Permanent magnetic field motor

In the last lines of my last post I proposed to build a permanent magnetic
field motor using a circular non-conservative magnetic field exerted on the
magnetic charges of a magnetic dipol. In principle, this field can be
generated by a broken current loop (i.e. free moving charged particles or
current loops whose magnetic field is shielded partially by using partially
a mu-metal wrapped magnetic field shielding cable). It is not not possible
to do this with closed current loops whose field can be described formally by
a potential (1).
In this context another problem I emphasized was that in non-closed current
loops the magnetic force law between single differential current elements
seem not to be decided experimentally until today (2). For broken current
loops it seems unclear what is the correct law for the magnetic field.
Going back to this pre-Maxwellian-standpoint the adequate form of the broken
loop "Maxwell equations" remains unclear as well as the electrodynamic of
the theory of relativity, which is based upon. If one accepts this pre-
Maxwellian standpoint a disproval of my motor would be possible only if
there exist appropriate "Maxwell equations" for every differential magnetic
force law and for every broken current loop, which is not the case. Only if
we have closed current loops a derivation of the Maxwell equations is
possible and, if we know Maxwell's equations we can derive a Maxwell specific
force law of broken loops as well.
Although going back to the pre-Maxwellian standpoint might be interesting
I will refer here solely to the equations of Maxwell and the derivations
based upon because most people who can understand this are aquainted with
this equations and do not tolerate such big deviations.
The weakness of my last post was that I omitted to give a concrete example
which would give some foundation to my motor proposal.
Therefore, I will calculate an example here which shows that a modified
version of my original circular B-field motor proposal can work based
on the Maxwellian electrodynamic.
Without being an expert of the theory of relativity I believe to know the
following facts regarding this theory:
The formalism of the theory of special relativity combines the classical
equations of Maxwell in one expression. The old electromagnetic theory
remains valid and has not to be modified contrary to Newton's mechanic.
Therefore it is correct to calculate the B - field using the classical
formula of the vector potential A:

              A = integral j(x')/|x-x'| d3x'.

Calculating the curl we get the B-field. The calculation of the A - field
of my original motor proposal is analogous to the calculation of an
electrical field of an cylindrical capacitor. It can be done by
integrating the Poisson equation which, because of cylindrical coordinates
and cylindrical symmetry of the outer (at radius=r2) and the inner current
tube (or wire at radius r1), reduces to

           1/r d/dr (r dA/dr) =   j(r1)*deltafunction (r-r1)
                                + j(r2)*deltafunction (r-r2)

As a result we get a 1/r-dependence of B which, according Maxwell's
treatise on electricity and magnetism Vol.I (Dover publishing edition)
(comp. as well the last but one equation of his note), leads to a null
torque on the magnetic dipol charges of the magnetic rods which point
radially as well as in our motor proposal. Therefore, in this point, M.
Burns's critique of my post is justified. Using cylindical symmetry and
assuming the Maxwell equations to be valid we get no torque and the motor
cannot run.
Can other geometries (without magnetic monopols) be successful ?
M.Burns would say no perhaps, because of the conservation of energy,
momentum and angular momentum built in in all theories from Maxwell to
Einstein.
I say yes ! All what we require is a non - 1/r radial circular B-
field dependence. This can be generated by the following geometry which is
analogous to that of an electrical bowl capacitor of radius r0, comp.
fig.1a+b: One or more magnet rods the magnetic north poles pointing radially
circulate in an orbit in the equatorial plane of a bowl which is made of
conducting material. On this bowl a current is flowing in the direction
>from  the upper pole to the lower pole. In order to have a broken loop the
inner wall of the volume of the bowl is shielded by mu-metal and the inner
volume of the bowl contains the current sources. The  current density on the
surface is (roughly) maintained constant by adding current to appropriate
locations on the surface by mu metal shielded cables.
In order to calculate the field we solve again the Poisson equation. We use
polar coordinates this time. Because the problem is independent from the
coordinates of the angles the Poisson equation reduces to

       (d^2 A)/(dr)^2 + 2/r(dA/dr) = 1/r (d^2 (r*A))/(dr)^2
                                   = deltafunction (r-r0) j(r)

Solving this equation we get

                    A(r) = j(r0)*r0(1-r0/r)

Using this geometry and calculating the curl, a 1/r^2 - dependence of the
circular B-field can be calculated in the equatorial plane of the orbit.
This leads to a torque T around the upper-lower-pole axis exerted on both
the rods by the magnetic charges +/- g(r) at radiuses r1/2 in the field:

              T = B(r1) * r1 * g(r1) -  B(r2) * r2 * g(r2)

Remembering that B = C/r^2 (C is a constant) in the equatorial plane we
get a non-vanishing net torque of

              T = C g (1/r1 - 1/r2)

Therefore, a circular constant magnetic B - field motor is feasible.
It remains the question whether this motor violates the theory of
electromagnetism ?
We emphasized already why the normal theory of relativisic electrodynamic
cannot be applied because it cannot describe the magnetic field of broken
current loops.
Regarding Maxwell's equations describing the conservative balance of
momentum and energy we see that conservation of all this physical entities
is restricted to electrical charges and the fields generated by them.
But if we have a mechanic coupling of the field to permanent spins of
a hard ferromagnet (not to a charge) then we have a situation which
differs physically completely from the situation described by Maxwell as
well as by the theory for special relativity.
Ampere's idea of constant molecular currents is incompatible if we leave
the magnetostatics. For example a perfectly hard ferromagnet cannot be
influenced by a changing B-field contrary to a current loop. There exists
no Lenz Law for spins. The coupling of a field to spins normally is not
accounted for in the energy balances of the theory of eletromagnetism.
Therefore, the situation is not covered by electro>dynamics<. I remember
that I emphasized that I did not claim that my motor proposal is a
perpetuum mobile. I cannot claim this because I do not know the exact
energy balance. I suppose that energy is needed to accelerate the motor
because the rotating magnetic charges induce a (Lenz) voltage in the
current tubes which acts against the battery voltages driving the current.
Nevermind, the question remains open: Is it possible to replace the elec-
trical sources of the circular non 1/r - B-field by permanent magnets ?.
If this is the case then we would have a "perpetuum mobile" and we would
have the problem how to establish the conservation laws again under this
conditions.
I do not know whether the theory of relativity is able to replace
adequately the magnetic moment of a spin formally by a local dipolar
distribution of magnetic monopoles, or whether a formal replacement of the
spins by a magnetic dipol distribution can explain some facts partially.

Bibliography:

1) Landau L.D., Lifshitz E.M.
   Elektrodynamik der Kontinua   Kapitel4, Paragraph 30, Aufgabe 1
   Verlag Harri Deutsch, Akademie Verlag Berlin 1982

2) Whittaker, Edmund
   A history of tthe theories of Aether and Electricity
   Vol. I  The classical theories

   Aspden, Harold
   Physics without Einstein     Sabberton, Southampton 1969
   Modern Aether Physics        Sabberton, Southampton 1975

   International Glasnost Journal of Fundamental Physics
   Vol.3, No.11, Marinov, Stefan; p. 18

side view:                      |
                                 .
                           _____________
                         / ------|------ \
            current    //        |        \ \
               bowl  //\         |        / \ \
                   //    \       |      /     \ \
  ----------------||       \     |    /         ||----------------
  |  ___________  ||         |   |   |          ||  ___________  |
  | |N         S| ||    +   ___ ___ ___         || |S         N| |
  | |___________| ||    -    -   -   - batteries|| |___________| |
  |    rotor      ||         |   |   |          ||    rotor      |
  ----------------||       /     |    \         ||----------------
                   \\    /       |      \      //
                     \\/   mu-metal-shield\  //
                       \\ _______|_____|__ //
                         \_______|________/
                                 .
                                 |  rotation axis

fig.1a: permanent magnetic field motor, side view
        current flowing from the upper to the lower pole of the bowl
        current density is constant over whole surface
        field of inner current source is shielded off


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                               <-----------
top view:                                 path of rotation of the
                                             magnet satellites on
                           _____________            \    rotor
                         / ------------- \            \
            current    //                 \ \           \
               bowl  //                     \ \          |
                   //                         \ \        |
                  ||                            ||       |
     ___________  ||                            ||  ___________
    |N         S| ||                            || |S         N|
    |___________| ||                            || |___________|
                  ||                            ||
                  ||                            ||
          |        \\                          //
          |          \\                      //
          |            \\ ________________ //
           \             \________________/
             \
               \
                 \
                   \----->  path of rotation of the magnet
                            satellites on rotor

fig.1b: permanent magnetic field motor, top view
        current flowing from the upper to the lower pole of the bowl
        current density is constant over whole surface
        field of inner current source is shielded off
        the current sources of the bowl are placed in the inner volume
        of the bowl, but they are not drawn in the figure

-----------------------------------------------------------------

disclaimer regarding employer
anti-copyright - can be copied by everybody for nothing
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30 344 23 66   FAX: ++ 49 30 344 92 79
email: harti@contrib.de     harti@b-2.de.contrib.net
Web access: http://www.b-2.de.contrib.net/harti/harti.html



From ajp2@po.cwru.edu Sun May 14 13:40:57 EDT 1995
Article: 6539 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.cwru.edu
From: Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 22:19:01 est
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
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Hank Simon writes:

> Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
> going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
> the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
> forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
> that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
> frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)

Just a brief correction (?)  In high school, I was told that the moon is 
actually moving away from the earth at a rate of about 1 inch per year, not 
falling in.  Seems the gravity ain't enough to hold it here at present.

-AP



From gr849@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Sun May 14 13:40:58 EDT 1995
Article: 6544 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!gr849
From: gr849@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hank Simon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re:Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: 9 May 1995 20:29:53 GMT
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The EMF theory looks good and is similar to something patented a
few years ago.  Unfortunately, there is still more physics going
on in the nonlinear regime: friction.

Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)

Magnets also have to deal with friction, air resistance, heat loss,
alignment instabilities...so it won't last "perpetuum."

However...it may still last a long time and there may be ways to
reduce the nonlinear effects.  As a theory, don't quit your day
job.  But as a garage project (or SBIR), it may be worth a look.
Experiement and see...Tha's what Edison did!

FWIW

Hank Simon


From jimdavis@teleport.com Sun May 14 13:40:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6549 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jimdavis@teleport.com (Jim Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re:Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 07:33:52
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Hank Simon said:

>Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
>going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
>the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
>forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
>that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
>frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)

The moon will not SOON spiral into the earth.  The dark side of the moon is 
not due to a slowing of the moon's rotation.  I assume when you say " the dark 
side of the moon"  you refer to the fact that one side of the moon is allways 
facing away from the earth.  That is due to the fact that the moon rotates 
once for each rotation, which incidentally is very common among the moons of 
the different planets of this solar system.




From kvj@rhi.hi.is Sun May 14 13:41:00 EDT 1995
Article: 6566 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!isgate!news.rhi.hi.is!kvj
From: kvj@rhi.hi.is (Kristjan Valur Jonsson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 11 May 1995 11:10:44 GMT
Organization: University of Iceland
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In <jimdavis.28.000790BA@teleport.com> jimdavis@teleport.com (Jim Davis) writes:

>Hank Simon said:

>>Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
>>going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
>>the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
>>forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
>>that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
>>frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)

>The moon will not SOON spiral into the earth.  The dark side of the moon is 
>not due to a slowing of the moon's rotation.  I assume when you say " the dark 
>side of the moon"  you refer to the fact that one side of the moon is allways 
>facing away from the earth.  That is due to the fact that the moon rotates 
>once for each rotation, which incidentally is very common among the moons of 
>the different planets of this solar system.

Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.
Because the earth's rotational speed is highher thant that of the moon
it will tend to accelerate the moon and thus fling it into a higher
orbit.  The word 'soon' as Mr. Simon used it was included for dramatic
effect olny.

Kristjan


-- 
Kristjan Valur Jonsson               |    The individual does not qualify for
Student of mechanical engineering,   |         making decisions regarding the
University of Iceland                |                 activities of the many.
Exclaimer: Yess!                     |                         (Helmut, 1993)
-- 
Kristjan Valur Jonsson               |    The individual does not qualify for
Student of mechanical engineering,   |         making decisions regarding the
University of Iceland                |                 activities of the many.
Exclaimer: Yess!                     |                         (Helmut, 1993)


From kvj@rhi.hi.is Sun May 14 13:41:00 EDT 1995
Article: 6567 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!isgate!news.rhi.hi.is!kvj
From: kvj@rhi.hi.is (Kristjan Valur Jonsson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: 11 May 1995 11:13:15 GMT
Organization: University of Iceland
Lines: 23
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In <jkondis.800159800@orion.oac.uci.edu> jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu (John Kondis) writes:

>I am ignoring angular momentum conservation, but it's probably OK since a 
>loss or gain thereof can be made up by the spin of either the earth or 
>the moon...

Don't.  While the moon will move to a higer orbit, the eargh will slow down,
and so will the moon's rotation too.


Kristjan


-- 
Kristjan Valur Jonsson               |    The individual does not qualify for
Student of mechanical engineering,   |         making decisions regarding the
University of Iceland                |                 activities of the many.
Exclaimer: Yess!                     |                         (Helmut, 1993)
-- 
Kristjan Valur Jonsson               |    The individual does not qualify for
Student of mechanical engineering,   |         making decisions regarding the
University of Iceland                |                 activities of the many.
Exclaimer: Yess!                     |                         (Helmut, 1993)


From jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu Sun May 14 13:41:01 EDT 1995
Article: 6569 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu (John Kondis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: 11 May 95 02:36:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine
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Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> writes:

>Hank Simon writes:

>> Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
>> going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
>> the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
>> forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
>> that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
>> frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)

>Just a brief correction (?)  In high school, I was told that the moon is 
>actually moving away from the earth at a rate of about 1 inch per year, not 
>falling in.  Seems the gravity ain't enough to hold it here at present.

A correction?  He he he.  How can gravity not be enough to "hold it 
there" when it has been doing so for so long?  (At least, as far as I can 
remember...  :)

Seriously, energy is being dissipated in the form of waves and tides 
destroying multi-million dollar superstar homes on the beaches of 
southern California.  Since the moon is most responsible for tides (and 
some waves) we expect the mechanical earth-moon system to lose some of 
its total energy.  The earth-moon system's mechanical energy is about 
E=-(1/2)GMm/r (ignoring rotational energy which is probably small), where 
r=distance from earth to the moon.  If the energy is decreasing 
(dissipated in the oceans and below the earth's crust), then r 
must also be decreasing.  Hence, the moon should be approaching us.  
(Duck!)

I am ignoring angular momentum conservation, but it's probably OK since a 
loss or gain thereof can be made up by the spin of either the earth or 
the moon...

...John
  _____    
 |     |    _____    "Come on!  Jesus needs a new pair of shoes!!!"
 |  O  |   |O   O|                  -- God (playing dice with the Universe)
 |     |   |O   O|   
  ~~~~~    |O   O|   John P. Kondis        UC Irvine        jkondis@uci.edu
            ~~~~~





From ted@physics.berkeley.edu Sun May 14 13:41:02 EDT 1995
Article: 6572 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ted@physics2.berkeley.edu (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 11 May 1995 03:20:28 GMT
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In article <jkondis.800159800@orion.oac.uci.edu>,
John Kondis <jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
:Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> writes:

:>Just a brief correction (?)  In high school, I was told that the moon is 
:>actually moving away from the earth at a rate of about 1 inch per year, not 
:>falling in.  Seems the gravity ain't enough to hold it here at present.

:Seriously, energy is being dissipated in the form of waves and tides 
:destroying multi-million dollar superstar homes on the beaches of 
:southern California.  Since the moon is most responsible for tides (and 
:some waves) we expect the mechanical earth-moon system to lose some of 
:its total energy.  The earth-moon system's mechanical energy is about 
:E=-(1/2)GMm/r (ignoring rotational energy which is probably small), where 
:r=distance from earth to the moon.  If the energy is decreasing 
:(dissipated in the oceans and below the earth's crust), then r 
:must also be decreasing.  Hence, the moon should be approaching us.  
:(Duck!)

In fact, Andrew is right: the moon is gradually receding from us.  (It
is, however, not really right to say that it's because gravity isn't
strong enough to hold it.)  The Earth is slowing down in its rotation,
and some of that energy is going to the moon.  As it picks up energy,
it moves further away.

You are right about the central role of the tides: they are the
mechanism by which the energy transfer takes place.  However, the
transfer goes in the opposite direction from what you said.

See, e.g., Frank Shu's book "The Physical Universe" for details.

-Ted


From ajp2@po.cwru.edu Sun May 14 13:41:03 EDT 1995
Article: 6580 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 17:29:02 est
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Kristjan Valur Jonsson writes:

> Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
> The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
> away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
> of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
> a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.

As we continue the thread that has very little to do with this news group...

No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due 
to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces the 
sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  

-AP



From dccoote@werple.mira.net.au Sun May 14 13:41:04 EDT 1995
Article: 6581 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!maui.cc.odu.edu!kuroshio.ccpo.odu.edu!xanth.cs.odu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!usenet
From: dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 11:41:47 PST
Organization: werple public-access Internet
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In article <3ombsd$3u8@netnews.upenn.edu>, clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu 
says...
>
>Hello to All ...
>
>Would someone share with me and the group,
>any *experience* with OTEC ??
>Are there any references available ??
>
>with appreciaton
>Roland

"Sun Traps" by John Elkington (Penguin, 1984) has a section describing 
this technology. I saw a video some years ago which showed a plant 
actually working and generating real live power in Hawaii. The 
representative of the plant when interviewed seemed most upset that 
given the success (technical and economic) of his there wasn't a rush to 
implement similar plants.

WRT "Sun Traps" I have found this an excellent - and exhaustive in range 
reference - for renewable technologies. I believe there is also a more 
recent edition.




From ted@physics.berkeley.edu Sun May 14 13:41:05 EDT 1995
Article: 6582 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ted@physics2.berkeley.edu (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 11 May 1995 21:58:25 GMT
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In article <95051117290200141@po.cwru.edu>,
Andrew J. Paier  <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> wrote:

>No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get
>light, due to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the
>moon _always_ faces the sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as
>we know them.

This is not true.  The Moon always keeps the same face towards the
Earth, not towards the Sun.  When people refer to "the dark side
of the Moon," what they really mean is the far side.

See any basic astronomy book if you don't believe me.  Or just keep an
eye on the Moon for a few months (preferably with binoculars) and
notice that it keeps the same side towards us.

-Ted


From ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk Sun May 14 13:41:06 EDT 1995
Article: 6589 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!swrinde!pipex!uknet!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!dcs.ed.ac.uk!ngf
From: ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Neil Ferguson)
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Message-ID: <D8EzJ7.CM1@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
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In article <95050922190100132@po.cwru.edu>, Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> writes:
> Hank Simon writes:
> 
> > Brief digression:  Assuming we could get work out it, the moon
> > going around the earth is a perpetual mtion machine similar to
> > the magnet setup.  However, it's fairly understood that frictional
> > forces have slowed the moon's rotation (hence, the dark side) and
> > that soon the moon will spiral into the earth due to these
> > frictional, tidal, gradient type forces :-)
> 
> Just a brief correction (?)  In high school, I was told that the moon is 
> actually moving away from the earth at a rate of about 1 inch per year, not 
> falling in.  Seems the gravity ain't enough to hold it here at present.
> 
> -AP
> 

    It's not so much gravity, as tidal momentum transfer. What 
happens is that the tides the Moon produces on the Earth exert 
a drag on the Earth's rotation, slowing it down. The energy 
originally stored in the Earth's rotation is transferred to the 
Moon's orbital velocity, accelerating it and thus moving it slowly 
outwards. Eventually, when Earth's rotation has the same period 
as the Moon's orbit, the two worlds will be tidally locked to 
each other.
    Incidentally, the reason the Moon moves outwards is that the 
Earth/Moon are rotating/orbiting in the same direction and the 
Earth is rotating with a shorter period than the Moon's orbit. 
If they were rotating/orbiting in opposite directions, or even 
if the Earth's rotational period was longer than the Moon's, then 
the Moon would indeed spiral inwards. This is expected to occur 
once tidal lock has been reached, when the Earth's rotation will 
continue to slow (by emission of gravity waves, if I remember 
correctly - I'm not sure of this!) and start to lag the Moon, 
dragging it back in once more.

-- 
Neil Ferguson                  Email to: ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk 
Microelectronic Engineering at Edinburgh University in Scotland!

It wasn't me!


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May 14 13:41:06 EDT 1995
Article: 6590 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Zomeworks Sunflow
Date: 11 May 1995 06:30:06 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Steve Troy <jade-mtn@indra.com> wrote:
>
>> That's Zomeworks Sunflow, a freeze-tolerant solar water heating system for 
>> about $1000.
>
>Zomeworks wasn't happy with this and discontinued it.

Really? Steve Baer just sent me a Sun Flow (tm) flyer. Looks pretty good. 
He didn't mention any problems.

>I think they're a great idea but Zomeworks has gotten so busy with their
>"Cool Cells" they don't have time to even plan working the bugs out of the
>Sunflow.

I can imagine that. Steve wrote: "I'm too busy going broke to revisit
the world of drums and heat gain. Maybe in the next decade... My hope is
to return to air-conditioning people, after we take care of their batteries
and electronics." He also says "Norman Saunders really knows his stuff" :-)

>Maybe someone out there reading this would be interested in starting a new
>business - perhaps Zomeworks would be willing to license and/or sell their
>plans and help you get going.

Sun Flow is covered by US Patent no. 5,143,053...

>Their phone number is 505-242-5354.

Nick



From Ben@microser.demon.co.uk Sun May 14 13:41:07 EDT 1995
Article: 6591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!demon!microser.demon.co.uk!Ben
From: Ben Newsam <Ben@microser.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 14:29:20 +0100
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"Andrew J. Paier" writes:
> Kristjan Valur Jonsson writes:
> 
> > Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
> > The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
> > away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
> > of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
> > a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.
> 
> As we continue the thread that has very little to do with this news group...
> 
> No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due 
> to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces the > sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  

Oh Moon! When I look on thy beautiful face,
Careering along through the boundaries of space,
The thought has quite frequently come to my mind,
If ever I'll gaze on thy glorious behind.

          Found in the mattress of Edmund Gosse's
          serving maid, after her death.

----------------------------------------------------
Ben Newsam, Micro Services, ben@microser.demon.co.uk
Tel & Fax: +44 114 285 2727
Programming, Documentation, Consultancy
C++, Windows, MFC,etc..
----------------------------------------------------


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:08 EDT 1995
Article: 6592 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Kjetil Uhlen <Kjetil.Uhlen@efi.sintef.no>
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--------
Hello!

I am a subscriber to the AE list through the Email adress:

"Kjetil.Uhlen@efic.efi.sintef.no" (or just "kju@efic.efi.sintef.no" I'm not
sure)

Now, this adress doesn't work anymore, so could you please
change the Email adress in the subscription list to:

Kjetil.Uhlen@efi.sintef.no
--------------------------

Thank you, I am looking foreward to receive some mail again!

Kjetil Uhlen
Re: AE discussion list


From jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:09 EDT 1995
Article: 6593 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 14:13:52 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
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Distribution: world
Message-ID: <JMC.95May12071352@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <95051117290200141@po.cwru.edu>
	<3ouaoa$8ba@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,<JMC.95May11204402@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<3ov09l$sla@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
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In-reply-to: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU's message of 12 May 1995 06:47:17 GMT
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In article <3ov09l$sla@gap.cco.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:

   In article <JMC.95May11204402@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
   =Let me add what Stendhal said.
   =
   =
   ="The people of the antipodes, gazing at the moon when for us it is only
   =a small crescent, remark, 'What a splendid brightness!  It's nearly full
   =moon'" - Stendhal in Memoirs of an Egotist, p. 92, Noonday Press.

   Er, just how long ago did Stendhal publish that misinformation?

Sten.dhal \sten-'d<a:>l, stan-, F sta<^n>-d<a.>l\
    1783-1842 pseud. of Marie-Henri Beyle \'bel\ Fr. writer-- Sten.dhal.ian 
    \-'d<a:>l-<e^->-<e>n\ adj

As a scientist, Stendhal was a great literary man.  _The Charterhouse
of Parma_ is a very exciting nove.

-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/




From wpb@iti.org Sun May 14 13:41:10 EDT 1995
Article: 6594 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: wpb@iti.org (William Bogen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 14:50:35 GMT
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Andrew J. Paier (ajp2@po.cwru.edu) wrote:

: No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that
: does not get light, due 
: to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the
: moon _always_ faces the 
: sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  

Ah, so when the Moon is 'new', and appears dark from Earth, then the
dark side has rotated into view?  No, wait a minute, we never see
the dark side, do we?  Hmmm, then the light side must somehow be
changing its color, in a pattern that sweeps across the surface of
the moon every month.  Gee, maybe there's a kind of lunar lichen
that grows and dies every month, doing a 'Wave' for our amusement?

Cheap experiment:  Stand in a dark room.  Have a friend point a
flashlight at you.  Hold a grapefruit, with your arm extended.
Slowly spin on your heel, keeping your eye on the grapefruit.
Notice how the side you can see alternates between light and dark.
You have just demonstrated the phases of the Moon.  _All_ sides of
the grapefruit, er Moon, receive light over the span of a month.

This information will change no one's 'knowledge' of the Dark side
of the Moon, of course.  The phrase is too embedded in the memes of
the general public.  I found it ironic that, in a recent episode of
'Sliders', in which our hero was competing in a high IQ game, one
question was (roughly), "Name 3 craters on the Dark side of the
Moon."




From SBC@fishace.demon.co.uk Sun May 14 13:41:11 EDT 1995
Article: 6595 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!fishace.demon.co.uk!SBC
From: Stephen Bedford Clark <SBC@fishace.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Institute
Date: 12 May 1995 13:47:05 +0100
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This is to all our American friends,

Does anyone have the e-mail or terrestial address of the Rocky 
Mountains Institute?

Many thanks.


Please reply to RPC@fishace.demon.co.uk
-- 
Robert Paul Clark



From wizard@werple.mira.net.au Sun May 14 13:41:12 EDT 1995
Article: 6596 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!usenet
From: wizard@werple.mira.net.au (David Galea)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fuel Cell Kits - in Oz
Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 08:24:33 GMT
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Where can I obtain a fuel cell to experiment with in kit for in
Australia or anywhere else in the world. Also how much would a small
one cost to build?

My intensions are to power a low voltage lighting system in my house.

David Galea
*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
David Galea  dgalea@netboss.dn.itg.telecom.com.au
Melbourne    wizard@werple.mira.net.au



From bek@RUC.DK Sun May 14 13:41:12 EDT 1995
Article: 6597 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.physics,sci.environment
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From: bek@RUC.DK (Bernd Kuemmel)
Subject: Re: Moon !
Message-ID: <bek.76.2FB39AE4@RUC.DK>
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 17:29:08 GMT
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>While this learned reply has merit, the correct answer is that
>the Dark Side of the moon is covered with Heavy Boots.

>        Paul

Mice say the moon is made of cheese.


From zowie@banneker.stanford.edu Sun May 14 13:41:13 EDT 1995
Article: 6598 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!rpal.rockwell.com!news.Stanford.EDU!banneker!zowie
From: zowie@banneker.stanford.edu (Craig DeForest)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 00:39:38 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
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Andrew J. Paier (ajp2@po.cwru.edu) wrote:
: Kristjan Valur Jonsson writes:
: > Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
: > The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
: > away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
: > of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
: > a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.

: As we continue the thread that has very little to do with this news group...
: No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due 
: to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces the 
: sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  

No, no, no, Kristjan is right.  Every part of the Moon (with the
exception of some craters near its poses, which are in pepetual
shadow) alternately gets light and dark.  The Moon is in tide lock
with the Earth -- it always faces the same hemisphere toward us.
Don't take *my* word for it just because I'm an astrophysicist -- go
look for yourself, once or twice a day for several days.  The surface
features are always the same.

--
Craig DeForest "PhD time: tee minus 45 days and holding for netnews delay"



From dietz@comm.mot.com Sun May 14 13:41:14 EDT 1995
Article: 6599 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.physics,sci.environment
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From: Paul Dietz <dietz@comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Moon !
In-Reply-To: <3oub44$isi@rs10.tcs.tulane.edu>
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 > No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get
 > light, due to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the
 > moon _always_ faces the sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as
 > we know them.

While this learned reply has merit, the correct answer is that
the Dark Side of the moon is covered with Heavy Boots.

	Paul


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6600 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Frank Lewon <Frank9966@aol.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: LOW PRICED MAGAZINE SUBSC...
Message-ID: <26978.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 00:18:11 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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bad dog bad dog
Re: LOW PRICED MAGAZINE SUBSC...


From scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu Sun May 14 13:41:16 EDT 1995
Article: 6601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu!scharle
From: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (scharle)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 17:41:40 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame
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Message-ID: <3p06kk$2lq@news.nd.edu>
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In article <3ovsjr$k6h@hawk.branch.com>, wpb@iti.org (William Bogen) writes:
...
|> This information will change no one's 'knowledge' of the Dark side
|> of the Moon, of course.  The phrase is too embedded in the memes of
|> the general public.  I found it ironic that, in a recent episode of
|> 'Sliders', in which our hero was competing in a high IQ game, one
|> question was (roughly), "Name 3 craters on the Dark side of the
|> Moon."

    I had always assumed that the expression "dark side of the moon"
referred to our lack of knowledge, much as in the expression "the dark
continent of Africa" referring to the 19th century English lack of
knowledge of the continent.
-- 
Tom Scharle  
Room G003 Computing Center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu
University of Notre Dame  Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539 USA


From rwa@cs.athabascau.ca Sun May 14 13:41:17 EDT 1995
Article: 6602 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: rwa@cs.athabascau.ca (Ross Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 95 21:23:10 GMT
Organization: Athabasca University
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Message-ID: <alvinf.800313790@atha>
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zowie@banneker.stanford.edu (Craig DeForest) writes:
>No, no, no, Kristjan is right.  Every part of the Moon (with the
>exception of some craters near its poses, which are in pepetual
>shadow) alternately gets light and dark. 

Are we *really* arguing about this as though it wasn't an established
fact?  Dear ghu, even Pink Floyd got it right in the spoken part of
_Dark Side of the Moon_, where someone says "it really doesn't have
any dark side".

Next I suppose we'll discuss heavy boots.

regards,
Ross
--
Ross Alexander, ve6pdq  --  (403) 675 6311  --  rwa@cs.athabascau.ca


From ted@physics.berkeley.edu Sun May 14 13:41:18 EDT 1995
Article: 6603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!physics2.berkeley.edu!ted
From: ted@physics2.berkeley.edu (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 21:40:14 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, U.C. Berkeley
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Status: O
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In article <alvinf.800313790@atha>,
Ross Alexander <rwa@cs.athabascau.ca> wrote:
>Are we *really* arguing about this as though it wasn't an established
>fact?  

You must be new to Usenet.  Arguing about established facts is one of
the primary activities around here.

-Ted


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:19 EDT 1995
Article: 6604 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Sanders <rsanders@ALB.ASCTMD.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Zomeworks Sunflow -Reply
Message-ID: <27386.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 00:24:13 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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>Zomeworks wasn't happy with this and discontinued it.  We sold a few
>and people liked them  -  I'm not sure exactly what the problem was. I
>heard that if someone had really hard water they could clog up.

  The tubes would calcify over the period of a year.  The annual
maintainence consisted of cleaning the tubes, much like one cleans a
coffeemaker.

>I think they're a great idea but Zomeworks has gotten so busy with their
>"Cool Cells" they don't have time to even plan working the bugs out of
>the Sunflow.

  The Coolcell Wattboxes are being tested by AT&T or U.S. West for cold
weather operation.  Seems the addition of a small heater insde keeps the
temp. pretty constant.  Talking with them last week, they indicated that
several other phone companies are interested as is the Swiss
government.

  Bob (rsanders@alb.asctmd.com")

Re: Zomeworks Sunflow -Reply


From eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov Sun May 14 13:41:19 EDT 1995
Article: 6605 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nrel!usenet
From: Kevin Eber <eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 17:39:24 GMT
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
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Message-ID: <3p06gc$924@nrel.nrel.gov>
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there is no dark side of the moon, really.
matter of fact, it's all dark.

(sorry, i couldn't resist it)


From chalkbd@q.continuum.net Sun May 14 13:41:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6606 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.continuum.net!news
From: Ed & JK Kolar <chalkbd@q.continuum.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,cl.energie.alternativen,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re:Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: 10 May 1995 23:25:31 GMT
Organization: William Seely Chalkboard I & II BBS
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harti@shb.contrib.de (Stefan Hartmann) wrote:
 >

text removed for brevity

 >fig.1b: permanent magnetic field motor, top view
 >        current flowing from the upper to the lower pole of the bowl
 >        current density is constant over whole surface
 >        field of inner current source is shielded off
 >        the current sources of the bowl are placed in the inner volume
 >        of the bowl, but they are not drawn in the figure
 >
 >-----------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >disclaimer regarding employer
 >anti-copyright - can be copied by everybody for nothing
 >--
 >Hartmann Multimedia Service
 >Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
 >Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
 >Tel: ++ 49 30 344 23 66   FAX: ++ 49 30 344 92 79
 >email: harti@contrib.de     harti@b-2.de.contrib.net
 >Web access: http://www.b-2.de.contrib.net/harti/harti.html
>

Man, you deserve an "A" on this paper.  WOW!
Ed   out//
-- 
Ed Kolar (chalkbd@q.continuum.net) 
A non-interneted BBS at:  1-203 449-8100  USRVfast 28800 8,n,1 out//




From samc@teleport.com Sun May 14 13:41:21 EDT 1995
Article: 6607 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: samc@teleport.com (Sam Churchill)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:53:14 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
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In article <3o7uuk$2c0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com>, millerb@ACM.org wrote:

> Actually, since my site doesn't subscribe to alt.solar.thermal
> I've been enjoying the thread.  Relax...don't do it!

Ha, ha. You must have a lot of free time at Ford, Bryan.

The original poster must have said something about 80% efficiency. If you
can believe that. I'm a skeptic. Wish someone could actually address the
topic! Is this is really on the horizon and practical? Maybe if you add a
large fresnel lens and use VERY exotic methods. Or some-such.

Maybe Nick can add something here.
-- 
Sam Churchill
Portland OR


From snick@u.washington.edu Sun May 14 13:41:22 EDT 1995
Article: 6608 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: snick@u.washington.edu (Louis Nick III)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 13 May 1995 01:22:17 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
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In article <3p0n0m$22d@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, David Tashima  <tash> wrote:
>-- 
>>Are we *really* arguing about this as though it wasn't an established
>>fact?  Dear ghu, even Pink Floyd got it right in the spoken part of
>>_Dark Side of the Moon_, where someone says "it really doesn't have
>>any dark side".
>
>Actually, isn't there a very small crater somewhere on one of the poles that
>never receives any light?  I remember hearing something about a new altimeter
>measurement that revealed that the deepest known crater in the solar system
>(deeper than Mars, I guess) exists on the Moon.  I'm not sure, though, and have
>no reference.

A few years back the DoD launched a lunar probe to test/demonstrate new 
technology, including a laser to scan and map the lunar surface, some 
equipment to better determine the crafts position, better cameras, etc.  
About 30 years beyond NASA, basically.

It took photos and readings of one of the lunar poles, and it was 
speculated that there maybe frozen water in this polar crater, provided 
there is no sunlight there year-round.  I don't know how deep it was, or 
if it set any records.  Since then, incidentally, they decided that the 
presence of water is unlikely there.  I think. :^)

---
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, 
de-briefed, or numbered!"




From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:23 EDT 1995
Article: 6609 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Will Stewart <will1000@IX.NETCOM.COM>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Goin' off-line, help!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <10588.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:22:54 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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You wrote:
>
>I will be moving to the end of the road above Rogue River, Oregon
where
>there ain't no power an' there ain't no phone.  Problem is, there
ain't
>no power an' there ain't no phone.
>
>I will need to install a solar system for electricity, hot water &
space
>heat. Any ideas. I need to make a family of five comfortable.  I would
>greatly appreciate any advice you can offer, particularly sources for
>hardware.  I know there must be a wonderful catalogue available
somewhere
>for the do-it-yourselfer.
>Please tell me there is!

What I have found to be helpful are:

  The NEW Solar Home Book, which is found in
  The Solar Living (Catalog?) from Real Goods Trading Co.

There are lots of books available.

If you have Web access, start off with

    http://www.eren.doe.gov

and then browse around from there.  Look especially at the HOME POWER
magazine back issues under Newletters and Magazines, and subscribe to
future volumes.

Hope this helps,

Will Stewart
Re: Goin' off-line, help!!!!!!!


From alomega@iu.net Sun May 14 13:41:24 EDT 1995
Article: 6610 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.save.the.earth,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
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From: alomega@iu.net (george)
Subject: Re: Greenhouse effect and oxygen levels.
Message-ID: <D8Ht92.IGL@zeno.fit.edu>
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Has anybody considered mentioned the true source of CO2 being spewed out
of active volcanoes.  Come on people.  Did you know that Mt. Penatubo in
1992 or 1993 during those 3 days of eruption output more particulate matter
and various gases than all the people and on earth and their factories and
cars could produce in 8 years!!!


From ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu Sun May 14 13:41:25 EDT 1995
Article: 6611 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Azeez Hayne <ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hemp,aus.general
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Date: 12 May 1995 06:05:55 GMT
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rtedw1@mdw012.cc.monash.edu.au (Russell Edwards) wrote:
>Azeez Hayne <ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu> writes:
>
>>>  Geez. Noone who's watched dope smokers passively goofing and yukking 
>>>their way through life would call hemp the most "benign" plant known to 
>>>man. I'd say that _basil_ is the most benign plant known to man (or woman 
>>>for that matter). Hemp is probably slightly to the other side of 
>>>belladonna. Also (if you know your history, which you apparently don't), 
>
> Belladonna is a very dangerous plant. Marijuana in a recent (supreme
>court?) inquiry was found to be one of the safest therapeutically
>active drugs known to man. Safer than boiled potatoes. I don't know what
>you mean by "goofing and yukking their lives away", but I think that
>many chronic marijauna smokers enjoy their lives more than most non-smokers.
>You don't see rastafarians going to war and killing eachother...
>
>>>the dope scare of the 20s was due more to widespread use of opiates in 
>>>patent medicines (cough, colic and the like) than anything Hearst did. 
>>>The "secret ingredient" in such medicines resulted in very widespread 
>>>addiction in the U.S. population. Thus the general public probably knew 
>>>more about real addiction and drug dependency than it does today. You'd 
>>>probably be a lot better off if you smoked basil. More clearheaded, 
>>>anyway.
>
> What do opiates have to do with marijuana? The dope scare of the 20's
>(wasn't it the 30's?) was due to WR Hearst's beat-up newspaper articles
>which talked about people smoking the "killer weed". Anslinger based most
>of his argument on these fallacious articles, not on patent medicines.
>
>  Anyway, even if you _do_ think the drug should be illegal, shouldn't
>low-THC (with virtually zero potential for recreational use, or as you
>would put it "abuse") strains of hemp be legal? They are biological
>inferior to real hemp but they're still better than nothing.
>
>Russell


I think your right on the money, but next time please attribute the post to the 
person who wrote it, in this case it was Mr.Levin.




From jmichael@crash.cts.com Sun May 14 13:41:26 EDT 1995
Article: 6612 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
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From: jmichael@crash.cts.com (Jim Michael)
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET), San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 23:05:11 GMT
Message-ID: <D8DxGp.3v8@crash.cts.com>
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>In article <3ombsd$3u8@netnews.upenn.edu>, clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu 
>says...
>>
>>Hello to All ...
>>
>>Would someone share with me and the group,
>>any *experience* with OTEC ??
>>Are there any references available ??
>>
>>with appreciaton
>>Roland
>
>
The ocean engineering trade journal _Sea Technology_ (used to be UnderSea
Technology_) had a few articles about the Hawaii plant (sort of before, during
and after articles).  If you can find ST for the appropriate time (late '70s?),
they might have information and other references.  I think ST is a Compass
publication.  Good luck.


			
				Jim Michael
				jmichael@crash.cts.com




From eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov Sun May 14 13:41:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6613 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Kevin Eber <eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 10 May 1995 21:47:53 GMT
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
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The plant in Hawaii was a Department of Energy-operated prototype.  
Here's some text I wrote about it some time ago:

"The only operating ocean thermal power plant is a prototype open-cycle 
plant in Hawaii.  Called the Net Power Producing Experiment, the plant 
is designed to produce 210 kilowatts of electricity.  Since it started
operating in 1992, the plant has generated as much as 255 kilowatts of
electricity­20 percent more than design.  Because the plant uses 
152 kilowatts to keep running, its net power production has been as 
high as 103 kilowatts.  

"Located on shore, the plant uses warm surface water from near the 
shore and cold water pumped up from a depth of 670 meters (2200 feet).  
The vacuum tank, where the warm seawater is boiled, is a concrete 
structure 7.6 meters (25 feet) in diameter and 9.4 meters (31 feet) 
high.  The plant is expected to operate until early 1995."

You're probably asking, "What is open-cycle?"  Here's a quick 
explanation:

"Open-cycle systems operate at pressures so low that warm seawater 
actually boils.  The system sucks in warm seawater near the surface 
and rapidly lowers its pressure to make it boil.  The steam passes
through a turbine generator, producing electricity, and is then 
cooled and condensed by cool water from the ocean depths.  The 
seawater isn't recycled in this system­warm seawater is sucked in and
cool water comes out­so it forms an open cycle.  This system has a 
big advantage:  when the seawater boils, the salts and impurities 
are left behind, and the steam is essentially pure water.  So the
open-cycle system produces power while it also produces distilled 
potable water­a valuable commodity in some parts of the world."

If you need more info, try contacting the Energy Efficiency and
Renewable Energy Clearinghouse (EREC) at 1-800-DOE-EREC, or their
WWW page at http://www.eren.doe.gov 




From B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz Sun May 14 13:41:28 EDT 1995
Article: 6614 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 19:08:43 GMT
Organization: Industrial Research Limited
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In article <JMC.95May11204402@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
 jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

>Let me add what Stendhal said.
>"The people of the antipodes, gazing at the moon when for us it is only
>a small crescent, remark, 'What a splendid brightness!  It's nearly full
>moon'" - Stendhal in Memoirs of an Egotist, p. 92, Noonday Press.

As with those posters that say " watch the moon for several days"
to see the same face, so please look at the size :-). 

As an antipodean, this is what I expect to see over the next few 
weeks. Let me know if you don't see a full moon on the 15th, and
you are on planet earth :-).

May 15    Full Moon
May 21    Last Quarter
May 29    New Moon
June 6     First Quarter.
 
            Bruce Hamilton




From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:29 EDT 1995
Article: 6615 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Peter Wolfs <P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: New York Times coverage Electric Cars and Lead
Message-ID: <1763.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 02:31:48 GMT
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>Anybody catch yesterday's NYT? Long article on the dangers of
>lead emissions from the lead/acid batteries used in electric cars.
>First person they quote? Robert Hahn, economist at that bastion of
>disinterested thought, the American Enterprise Institute.
>
>
>New York Times coverage Electric Cars and Lead

I did some research into lead for photovoltaic systems. Important points include

I) World lead production is around 5 000 000 tons and more than 2 000 000
goes to ICE automotive starting batteries.

II) Recycling of lead batteries provides a third of world demand for lead
and perhaps half of world antimony.

III) Recycling is a lot like smelting. As safe or as dangerous as you
choose to make it.

IV) Lead releases from leaded petrol in 1982 had been 500 000 tons. This is
miles higher than any release from batteries.

I would not be overly concerned about lead in either application.

Dr. Peter J. Wolfs                      [=---=]
Electrical Engineering                    \o/
Central Queensland University              X
Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
Australia
Tel +61 79 30 9599
Fax +61 79 30 9382


Re: New York Times coverage Electric Cars and Lead


From jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6616 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 03:44:02 GMT
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Let me add what Stendhal said.


"The people of the antipodes, gazing at the moon when for us it is only
a small crescent, remark, 'What a splendid brightness!  It's nearly full
moon'" - Stendhal in Memoirs of an Egotist, p. 92, Noonday Press.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/




From matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk Sun May 14 13:41:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6617 of alt.energy.renewable
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Subject: !
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From: Mat <matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk>
Date: 13 May 1995 06:36:15 +0100
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                          S T R E E T   P A R T Y !

                               Sunday May 14th
             Meet 12.30pm, Rainbow Centre, Kentish Town, London.
                             Tel. 0171 254 2290

             CALLING ALL HUMANS! RED ALERT! CALLING ALL HUMANS!


Things are getting urgent - we need to do something now about the killer
metal aliens. They have colonised our streets and squashed us up against
the wall - all these metal rivers cut us apart from one another. Their
atmosphere is not good for us - carbon monoxide (etc.) hurts delicate
human lungs. If we don't act quickly they will consume the city
completely.

We need to remember what things were like before they arrived - when the
street was a commons, a market, a playground...

We need to free the humans they have enslaved to drive them about - we
will tickle the drivers until they are laughing as loudly as us...

We are going to take back *one*street*for*one*afternoon* to help us
imagine what a city without cars could be like. We invite all actors,
acrobats, performers, musicians, dancers, clowns, skateboarders,
unicyclists, trapeze artists, stilt walkers, graffiti artists, body
painters, children, grandparents and general human beings to help us
open a _new_era_ of urban design.

The occasion? International Day of Traffic Action - similar human
uprisings will be taking place around the planet.

Meet at the Rainbow Centre, 23 Highgate Road, Kentish Town (near tube)
on Sunday May 14th at 12.30pm. For more information ring 0171 254 2290.


                 R e c l a i m   t h e   s t r e e t s !

--
       ++
      +M.+
       ++


From bryanc@mpservices.com Sun May 14 13:41:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6618 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 12 May 1995 20:40:01 GMT
Organization: MPSERVICES
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Message-ID: <3p0h31$hq@news.starnet.net>
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In article <3orca9$41@nrel.nrel.gov>, eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov says...
>
>The plant in Hawaii was a Department of Energy-operated prototype.  
>Here's some text I wrote about it some time ago:
>
>"The only operating ocean thermal power plant is a prototype open-cycle 
>plant in Hawaii.  Called the Net Power Producing Experiment, the plant 
>is designed to produce 210 kilowatts of electricity.  Since it started
>operating in 1992, the plant has generated as much as 255 kilowatts of
>electricity­20 percent more than design.  Because the plant uses 
>152 kilowatts to keep running, its net power production has been as 
>high as 103 kilowatts.  

	A couple of questions concerning this plant and the different 
OTEC systems.  I am not familiar with the particular system in Hawaii 
except for what I have read in this group.  

	1.  How do they lower the pressure to boil the water? (ie. vacuum 
	pump or venturii effect?)
 
	2.  How do they utilize what must be extremly low pressure steam 
	to turn a turbine?  The pressure on the boiler side of the 	
	turbine must be less than one atmosphere or the water would cease 
	to boil.

	3.  Does anyony have a schematic of the system that shows the 
	operation?

	4.  I have seen another OTEC system that worked by utilizing the 
	temp differential above and below the thermocline in the ocean to 
	move cold water up a pipe turning a turbine.  This water moves 
	out an outflow pipe and sinks beacuse it is denser than the 
	surface water which is warmer.  This causes a partial vacuum in 
	the pipe which allows air pressure on the ocean surface to push 
	more water up the pipe from below the thermocline.  As long as 
	the surface water is warmer than the deeper water the reaction is 
	self sustaining.  Does anyone know of any research into this type 
	of OTEC system?


Thanks for any info.

Bryan Cort
bryanc@mpservices.com

p.s.  I believe that there was a pilot plant for the system described in 
question 4 way back in the 20's or 30's in the carribien that produced 
50kW.

p.p.s.	Most of my info on the OTEC system in question 4 came from the 
book "A step farther out" by Jerry Pournelle.
 



From jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu Sun May 14 13:41:32 EDT 1995
Article: 6619 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jkondis@orion.oac.uci.edu (John Kondis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 13 May 95 09:49:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <jkondis.800358591@orion.oac.uci.edu>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Andrew J. Paier <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> writes:
[...]
>No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due 
>to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces the 
>sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  
>-AP

Uhh...  I don't think so.  I remember as a youth with my first telescope 
I had a map of the moon.  There were two sides -- one side for the half 
that always faces away from the earth and the other that always faces 
us.  And I remember taking peeks over periods of time and seeing the same 
craters at the same relative positions on the moon.

...John
  _____    
 |     |    _____    "Come on!  Jesus needs a new pair of shoes!!!"
 |  O  |   |O   O|                  -- God (playing dice with the Universe)
 |     |   |O   O|   
  ~~~~~    |O   O|   John P. Kondis        UC Irvine        jkondis@uci.edu
            ~~~~~



From granholm@direct.ca Sun May 14 13:41:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6620 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: granholm@direct.ca
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 21:20:14 UNDEFINED
Organization: Internet Direct, Inc.
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References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <3ouaoa$8ba@nntp.Stanford.EDU> <alvinf.800313790@atha> <3p0n0m$22d@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <3p11k9$8q7@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
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Status: O
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Having read twenty or so postings in this thread, I am left wondering..

What was it all about? 




From ted@physics.berkeley.edu Sun May 14 13:41:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6621 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ted@physics2.berkeley.edu (Emory F. Bunn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 06:38:19 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, U.C. Berkeley
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Message-ID: <3ouvor$823@agate.berkeley.edu>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JMC.95May11204402@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>,
John McCarthy <jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Let me add what Stendhal said.

>"The people of the antipodes, gazing at the moon when for us it is only
>a small crescent, remark, 'What a splendid brightness!  It's nearly full
>moon'" - Stendhal in Memoirs of an Egotist, p. 92, Noonday Press.

I know most of you already know this, but in case anybody doesn't, let
me point out that this is not an accurate description of the phases of
the Moon.  Full Moon is full Moon the world around.

-Ted


From carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6622 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 06:47:17 GMT
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JMC.95May11204402@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
=Let me add what Stendhal said.
=
=
="The people of the antipodes, gazing at the moon when for us it is only
=a small crescent, remark, 'What a splendid brightness!  It's nearly full
=moon'" - Stendhal in Memoirs of an Egotist, p. 92, Noonday Press.

Er, just how long ago did Stendhal publish that misinformation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.


From tash Sun May 14 13:41:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6623 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: David Tashima <tash>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Date: 12 May 1995 22:21:10 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3p0n0m$22d@nntp4.u.washington.edu>
References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <95051117290200141@po.cwru.edu> <3ouaoa$8ba@nntp.Stanford.EDU> <alvinf.800313790@atha>
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Status: O
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-- 
>Are we *really* arguing about this as though it wasn't an established
>fact?  Dear ghu, even Pink Floyd got it right in the spoken part of
>_Dark Side of the Moon_, where someone says "it really doesn't have
>any dark side".

Actually, isn't there a very small crater somewhere on one of the poles that
never receives any light?  I remember hearing something about a new altimeter
measurement that revealed that the deepest known crater in the solar system
(deeper than Mars, I guess) exists on the Moon.  I'm not sure, though, and have
no reference.

-dave

David Tashima		INTERNET: tash@atmos.washington.edu
Dept of Atmospheric Sciences, AK-40
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6624 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Scott Brylow <scott@presence.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: New Web site:  Free recycling clearinghouse,
Message-ID: <17784.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 06:07:27 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Hello all,

I hope that with your interests in renewable energy sources, you are
sympathetic to any efforts to reduce energy required to manufacture goods.

My firm put up a cool new Web site last week.  I'm attaching the short
press release below.  It's been an EPA-sponsored BBS for ~6 years, and
provides the opportunity to swap or sell just about any raw material or
finished good.  This secondary market in scrap and used items, as well as
byproducts of manufacturing and even household junk is in tune with
'reduce, reuse, recycle' programs.

If any of you feel this is an inappropriate post, please let me know.  I
think you are just the sort of community that would be interested in this
site and could help make it a rousing success.

Thanks for your time and attention.

Regards,

Scott

___________
Contact:        Mike Silver (818) 888 0055, earthcycle@aol.com, Earthcycle
                Bob Smee (509) 466 1532, nmen@earthcycle.com, Earthcycle
                Scott Brylow (818) 405 9971, scott@presence.com, Presence

NOW SWAP OR SELL ANYTHING FREE ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB:
RECYCLING ENTERS CYBERSPACE


The National Materials Exchange Network is the new, free Internet
marketplace for trading and recycling just about anything
(http://www.earthcycle.com/nmen/).  The exchange is one of the first
completely interactive services to reach the World Wide Web.  Over 10,000
items have already been listed.  Significantly, the Exchange lets anyone
with a computer and access to the Web immediately list anything they wish
to sell or get rid of at no cost by filling out a simple form on the
system.

The Exchange is designed to be as simple to swap items cross-town as
cross-continents.  Users can instantly search an area as small as a single
area code or as broad as all of Europe.  Even if a user is only listing a
bicycle, it can be easily located by a buyer just down the street.
However, the Exchange also contains listings from Japan to Germany allowing
tons of base metals, paper products, and chemicals to be traded nationally
and internationally.
_________
--
Scott M. Brylow     Presence - An Information Design Studio  v:818 405 9971
scott@presence.com          175 S. Fair Oaks Avenue           :800 626 6100
http://www.presence.com/        Pasadena, CA 91105           f:818 405 1817

                      Bringing Your Business to the World

New Web site:  Free recycling clearinghouse, business and consumers


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:37 EDT 1995
Article: 6625 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Will Stewart <will1000@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: New York Times coverage Electric Cars and Lead
Message-ID: <14933.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:10:26 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Status: O
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You wrote:
>
>Anybody catch yesterday's NYT? Long article on the dangers of
>lead emissions from the lead/acid batteries used in electric cars.
>First person they quote? Robert Hahn, economist at that bastion of
>disinterested thought, the American Enterprise Institute.
>
What was the premise of the article?  Does it have the support of
reputable scientists?  We just can't naysay negative consequences of
our pursuits, we have to address them.  I am considering the purchase
of an electric car, and will postpone such decision if the health of my
family would be at risk.  My ultimate goal is the betterment of the
environment and that certainly includes my immediate one.

Regards,

Will Stewart
Re: New York Times coverage Electric Cars and Lead


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6626 of alt.energy.renewable
From: William Bill Kovarik <wkovarik@RUACAD.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: biodiesel
Message-ID: <15007.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:12:48 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Lines: 24
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X-Status: 

>
> I am looking for information on the Biodiesel industry in North Americal as we
ll
>  as in Europe.
> I am doing a study on the Biodiesel industry.  Specifically I'm looking for
>  infor on the marketing and
> distribution of Biodiesel.  (How is it distributed and marketed).  Any other
.....



Contact: Callen Fairchild, Editor
Biodiesel Information Center
2405 Grand Ave., Suite 700
Kansas City, Mo. 64108
Ph. 800 769 3437
Fax 816 474 7783

These guys really should get an e-mail address. Maybe even a web site.

Bill Kovarik


Re: biodiesel                                                                R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6627 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Marvin G. Beshirs" <mbeshirs@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Moon !
Message-ID: <15316.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:15:43 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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As I was told in science class, one side always faces the earth.  It was
once called the dark side because for eons of time, no one could study
the other side to see what it was like.  I hope this clears up soon.  Let
us please get back to AE discussion.  Maybe somebody wants to use the
pull of the moons gravity as an alternative enrgy source.

--May God be with you and yours.         Don't criticize me too loudly until
  Marvin Beshirs  (:>                    you have walked a mile in my shoes!
  e-mail at mbeshirs@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us             !Please!
  Residing in the Show-me state of Missouri    Near Branson, not in.
                                               Closest to Chadwick!

On Thu, 11 May 1995, Andrew J. Paier wrote:

> Kristjan Valur Jonsson writes:
>
> > Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
> > The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
> > away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
> > of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
> > a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.
>
> As we continue the thread that has very little to do with this news group...
>
> No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due
> to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces th
e
> sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.
>
> -AP
>
>
> Re: Moon !
>
Re: Moon !                                                                   R


From ifjed@nmsua.nmsu.edu Sun May 14 13:41:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6628 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ifjed@nmsua.nmsu.edu (Slieve M'Daid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Zomeworks Sunflow
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 15:21:25 GMT
Organization: Alamogordo Branch Community College
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Status: O
X-Status: 

That's Zomeworks Sunflow, a freeze-tolerant solar water heating system for 
about $1000.


From ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu Sun May 14 13:41:40 EDT 1995
Article: 6629 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Azeez Hayne <ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hemp,aus.general
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Date: 11 May 1995 15:44:23 GMT
Organization: Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA, USA
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john.levin@paonline.com (John Levin) wrote:
>>so blame industrialist hearst and his chain of newspapers for the 
>>laws we now have.  a bunch of greedy industrialists criminalized one of 
>>the most benign plants known to man.
>
>  Geez. Noone who's watched dope smokers passively goofing and yukking 
>their way through life would call hemp the most "benign" plant known to 
>man. I'd say that _basil_ is the most benign plant known to man (or woman 
>for that matter). Hemp is probably slightly to the other side of 
>belladonna. Also (if you know your history, which you apparently don't), 
>the dope scare of the 20s was due more to widespread use of opiates in 
>patent medicines (cough, colic and the like) than anything Hearst did. 
>The "secret ingredient" in such medicines resulted in very widespread 
>addiction in the U.S. population. Thus the general public probably knew 
>more about real addiction and drug dependency than it does today. You'd 
>probably be a lot better off if you smoked basil. More clearheaded, 
>anyway.


If marijuana is so harmful, why does it cure glaucoma and asthma? No one really 
advocated smoking it to my knowledge so far. We've just said it has uses that 
should be allowed and aren't because of ignorance. 
>




From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:41 EDT 1995
Article: 6630 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Will Stewart <will1000@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Zomeworks objectives; Air conditioning with solar?
Message-ID: <13620.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 22:38:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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X-Status: 

Nick wrote:
>Steve wrote
>>I think they're a great idea but Zomeworks has gotten so busy with their
>>"Cool Cells" they don't have time to even plan working the bugs out of the
>>Sunflow.

What are Cool Cells?  Is this related to the air conditioning that Steve Baer
is quoted as returning to?

>I can imagine that. Steve wrote: "I'm too busy going broke to revisit
>the world of drums and heat gain. Maybe in the next decade... My hope is
>to return to air-conditioning people, after we take care of their batteries
>and electronics." He also says "Norman Saunders really knows his stuff" :-)
>

Will Stewart
Zomeworks objectives; Air conditioning with solar?


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:42 EDT 1995
Article: 6631 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "David L. Hohenschau" <dhohensc@MOOSE.UVM.EDU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: info request
Message-ID: <13778.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 14:45:14 GMT
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Hi all,
We're starting a new student organization here at UVM for environmentally
responsible engineering.
Our first mission is to gather as many information resources as we can.
If anyone could refer me to periodicals, publications, web/ftp sites,
etc. that could be info sources about renewables, pollution,
efficiencies, and so on,  I would be very appreciative.
Thanks,
peace,
Dave Hohenschau
dhohensc@moose.uvm.edu
info request


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:43 EDT 1995
Article: 6632 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Price Trevor <T.J.Price@cranfield.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NOABL
Message-ID: <21540.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 08:10:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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Does anyone out there know what NOABL stands for with respect to the wind speed
estimation model and some of its history?
NOABL


From john.levin@paonline.com Sun May 14 13:41:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6633 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!news.mathworks.com!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nuclear.microserve.net!news
From: john.levin@paonline.com (John Levin)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hemp,aus.general
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Date: 11 May 1995 16:19:48 GMT
Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3otdf4$4dh@misc1.microserve.net>
References: <3of7jc$ot4@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> <3og78h$9ke@larch.cc.swarthmore.edu> <3ojvhj$nid@d2.tufts.edu> <3ot7ee$49p@misc1.microserve.net> <3otbcn$kdr@larch.cc.swarthmore.edu>
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In article <3otbcn$kdr@larch.cc.swarthmore.edu>, ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu says...

>If marijuana is so harmful, why does it cure glaucoma and asthma? No one really 
>advocated smoking it to my knowledge so far. We've just said it has uses that 
>should be allowed and aren't because of ignorance. 


Belladonna has medical uses, too. That doesn't mean that it is therefore 'harmless' 
and should be freely available. Given your logic, I guess that all this fuss about 
handguns in elementary schools is based on 'ignorance' too. Sheesh.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6634 of alt.energy.renewable
From: braner@GAVIA.SNR.UVM.EDU
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wood stove v. pellet stove
Message-ID: <16467.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 23:47:10 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Logs make a mess.  Pellets are more expensive.  If you can,
install a wood-burning furnace in the basement, keep the
mess out of the living room.  Better yet, a furnace that
can also burn oil.  Water radiators are much better than
forced hot air (quiet, no dust).  Either way, retrofitting
a furnace into a house is expensive.  A wood stove in the
living room will make the living room too hot while the
bedrooms are too cold.  (That's what I have...)

- Moshe


Re: Wood stove v. pellet stove                                               R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:45 EDT 1995
Article: 6635 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Paul Gipe <pgipe@IGC.APC.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Info on Wind Mill Turbine Manufactureres
Message-ID: <18051.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:31:28 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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The AWEA database Tom mentioned contains U.S. manufacturers only.

Paul Gipe
Re: Info on Wind Mill Turbine Manufactureres


From weinert1@llnl.gov Sun May 14 13:41:46 EDT 1995
Article: 6636 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.uoregon.edu!ntuix.ntu.ac.sg!news.mathworks.com!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!machfive
From: weinert1@llnl.gov (George Weinert)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Date: 11 May 1995 16:10:03 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, NCD
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Message-ID: <3otcsr$qr3@lll-winken.llnl.gov>
References: <pmclaasn.21.0010F940@ING.SUN.AC.ZA> <3nentc$dhu@linda.teleport.com> <samc-2704952241110001@ip-pdx6-11.teleport.com> <1995May1.173011.9046@etek.chalmers.se> <3o56kn$au4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <samc-0305950040430001@ip-pdx1-03.teleport.com> <3o7uuk$2c0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com> <samc-1005951653140001@ip-pdx6-26.teleport.com>
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Status: O
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In article <samc-1005951653140001@ip-pdx6-26.teleport.com>,
   samc@teleport.com (Sam Churchill) wrote:
[snip]
>Ha, ha. You must have a lot of free time at Ford, Bryan.
>
>The original poster must have said something about 80% efficiency. If you
>can believe that. I'm a skeptic. Wish someone could actually address the
>topic! Is this is really on the horizon and practical? Maybe if you add a
>large fresnel lens and use VERY exotic methods. Or some-such.
>
>Maybe Nick can add something here.

I posted a reply to this thread earlier, in answer to the original (I think..)
post.  The jist of it was that I had read about this material a while back in
'Solar Today' (May/June '93 -- Published by the American Solar Energy
Society).  The article was by Jonathan Haber entitled 'A New Solar Electric 
Invention'.  The material being *proposed* consisted of dye molecules which 
acted as DIAD's (Donor-Insulator-Acceptor-Devices), which are molecular diodes 
when stimulated by light.  Apparently, DIADs are used in the early stages of 
photosynthesis to create an electrical potential.  The general idea was to 
take these dye molecules, attach them to long chain conductive polymers, and 
then stretch orient the material (just like the manufacture of poloroid film, 
which is probably why the inventor referred to it as 'Lumeloid').  To quote 
the article:

	When two polarized films are positioned with their stretch axes
	perpendicular, light is almost completely absorbed.  Ordered diads
	in Lumeloid enable the conversion of light to electric power at
	83 percent *theoretical* efficiency. (emphasis added)

About the efficiciency of semiconductor PV, the article goes on to say:

	A conventional solar cell generates electricity using layers of
	semiconductor material on a silicon chip, which absorbs energy
	from light photons and frees an electronfrom an atom in the structure.
	The conversion of light to electric power takes place in the direction
	of the sun's rays.  This results in limited effiencies because the
	electric field of a photon is directed at a right angle to the light
	ray.  Energetic electrons in a conventional photovoltaic cell must be 
	turned around by numerous impacts with the semi-conductor structure,
	resulting in considerable energy loss as heat.

I think this thread got started when somebody saw an blurb in the 'What's New' 
section of _Popular Science_ which talked about development efforts underway 
with Argonne National Lab.  It looked just like a press release on the ANL Web 
server (http://www.anl.gov) the actual URL of the press release itself is:

	http://www.anl.gov/OPA/news940801.html

Check it out, it's kinda' interesting.  BTW, I have NO financial interest in 
this development (except as a potential consumer :).  I would also reccomend 
trying to find the aforementioned article in _Solar Today_.  Obviously, I have 
been following these developments with some interest.  Does anybody out there 
have any more info on this?

G.W. 


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May 14 13:41:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6637 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Zomeworks objectives; Air conditioning with solar?
Date: 12 May 1995 22:29:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3p15is$fme@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
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Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>Nick wrote:
>>Steve wrote >>>I think they're a great idea but Zomeworks has gotten so busy
>>>with their "Cool Cells" they don't have time to even plan working the bugs
>>>out of the Sunflow.
 
>What are Cool Cells?

Cool cells are a clever sort of passive system that keeps batteries
warm in cold weather and cool in hot weather, to make them last longer.

>Is this related to the air conditioning that Steve Baer is quoted as
>returning to?

No.

Nick



From lion@primenet.com Sun May 14 13:41:48 EDT 1995
Article: 6638 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.gmi.edu!msunews!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usenet
From: Sovereign <lion@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: WWW SITE
Date: 13 May 1995 01:48:52 GMT
Organization: Primenet
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Introducing the WWW site who does it's best to be the one stop info shop
for controversial information...check it often for the latest not ready
for primetime news.

http://www.primenet.com/~lion/

-- 


                             =============================
           lion@primenet.com     []     http://www.primenet.com/~lion/
               Lost, Found and/or Changed In the Wink Of An Eye
                         The Only Constant In Life Is Change
                                              Sovereign
              ======== Freedom - a Dream or a Reality ========     

 Without prejudice and explicit reservation of all my rights, UCC 1-207




From ez@ix.netcom.com Sun May 14 13:41:49 EDT 1995
Article: 6639 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ez@ix.netcom.com (Nikali Boldrini)
Newsgroups: alt.education.distance,alt.energy.renewable,alt.engr.explosives,alt.evil,alt.fan.art-bell,alt.fan.barry-manilow,alt.fan.bill-gates,alt.fan.british-accent,alt.fan.cecil-adams,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: BON VOVAGE ART !! We'll be  :^)  when you get back!
Date: 13 May 1995 00:45:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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From millerb@ACM.org Sun May 14 13:41:50 EDT 1995
Article: 6640 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!fiesta.srl.ford.com!pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com!pt9524.ped.pto.ford.com!millerb
From: millerb@pt9524.ped.pto.ford.com (Bryan Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: 80% SOLAR MATERIAL efficiency
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Date: 11 May 1995 16:17:24 GMT
Organization: Ford Motor Co., Powertrain Electronics
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3otdak$3n1@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com>
References: <pmclaasn.21.0010F940@ING.SUN.AC.ZA> <3nentc$dhu@linda.teleport.com> <samc-2704952241110001@ip-pdx6-11.teleport.com> <1995May1.173011.9046@etek.chalmers.se> <3o56kn$au4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <samc-0305950040430001@ip-pdx1-03.teleport.com> <3o7uuk$2c0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com> <samc-1005951653140001@ip-pdx6-26.teleport.com>
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Sam Churchill (samc@teleport.com) appears to have written:
>In article <3o7uuk$2c0@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com>, millerb@ACM.org wrote:

>> Actually, since my site doesn't subscribe to alt.solar.thermal
>> I've been enjoying the thread.  Relax...don't do it!

>Ha, ha. You must have a lot of free time at Ford, Bryan.
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Was it something I said? ;-)  Actually it's called lunch...

>The original poster must have said something about 80% efficiency. If you
>can believe that. I'm a skeptic. Wish someone could actually address the
                         ^^^^^^^
>topic! Is this is really on the horizon and practical? Maybe if you add a
>large fresnel lens and use VERY exotic methods. Or some-such.

Like I said, I've been enjoying the thread.  I too am a skeptic.
Perhaps I've had too much education and it's numbed my senses...

cheers,
Bryan
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein


From gooley@netcom.com Sun May 14 13:41:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6641 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!scipio.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!gooley
From: gooley@netcom.com (Mark. Gooley)
Subject: Re: Wood stove v. pellet stove
Message-ID: <gooleyD8Hqup.23t@netcom.com>
Organization: Dostoyevskian Characters, plc
References: <16467.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:32:49 GMT
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Sender: gooley@netcom3.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <16467.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> writes:
>Logs make a mess.  Pellets are more expensive.  If you can,
>install a wood-burning furnace in the basement, keep the
>mess out of the living room.  Better yet, a furnace that
>can also burn oil.  Water radiators are much better than
>forced hot air (quiet, no dust).  Either way, retrofitting
>a furnace into a house is expensive.  A wood stove in the
>living room will make the living room too hot while the
>bedrooms are too cold.  (That's what I have...)

Read Robertson Davies (writing as "Samuel Marchbanks" -- there is an
omnibus collection of his newspaper pieces from the late Forties and
early Fifties called, I think, _The Papers of Samuel Marchbanks_)
on stoking a coal-and-wood-fired furnace in a basement.  They're
probably better these days, but it sounds nightmarish.  I think that
his was forced hot-air.

I read an article in _Back Home_ magazine (Winter '94/'95, I think --
just picked up a copy at a newsstand) on external wood-burning furnaces.
One uses pipes in an insulated trench to run water in a loop between a
furnace (that's in its own small shed) and the house.  With heat-exchangers
one can use forced-air and also heat water to send to the taps.  The author
of the article boasts about how his house is almost uninsulated, about how
with a good supply of wood from his own lot he can waste heat like crazy
and still have almost no heating bill -- sounds a bit silly, there.  The
external furnace reduces the fire hazard, lets you store wood near the
furnace and not in the house, is easier to retrofit (you can keep your old
forced-air system or radiators), and ensures that you won't have to go
into a basement to stoke it.  You can get crude control via a thermostat-
controlled damper, etc.

Mark., no personal experience of any of this, having lived with forced-air
gas heat most of my life
gooley@netcom.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May 14 13:41:52 EDT 1995
Article: 6642 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A high-performance, cost-effective, solar heated pool
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: 10 May 1995 06:29:52 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:3117 alt.energy.renewable:6642 alt.solar.thermal:133
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X-Status: 

Solar pool heating should be easy, since temperatures are low, it is usually
done only in mild weather, and there is a large inherent water heat battery.
The May/June issue of Solar Today has a primer on conventional solar pool
heating that says: "In many areas of the country, solar pool heating is the
most economically attractive solar technology available today."

But there is still room for improvement, especially for year-round heating.
Yesterday, a physics teacher told me about a remarkable house that was next
to a swimming pool, which was under a conventional greenhouse. In winter, the
engineer/owner pumped some of the swimming pool water into the house, to heat
the house. This was done years ago, in PA, and it's probably all gone now,
along with the engineer. I wonder how it worked. A water-source heat pump?

Here is one way to heat a pool:

1. Put a 16 x 32' piece of plastic on the ground, and lay some cement blocks
on top. Lay some plywood or steel greenhouse bench mesh on top of the cement
blocks. One could also support the plywood with 55 gallon drums full of water,
standing upright. 

2. Buy a 15 x 30' rectangular steel pool from J C Penny, for about $2000.
Or build one out of 2 x 6s on 4' centers, with ferrocement over 4' wide
chicken wire. Set this up on top of the hollow platform above.

3. Make a 15 x 30' rigid pool cover out of 2" of beadboard and 2 x 4s, with a
layer of Thermo-ply underneath, sprayed with clear urethane, shiny side down,
and another layer of Thermo-ply on top, shiny side up. This would be hinged
along the 32' north edge of the pool, with a few counterweights hanging over
the north edge.

4. Buy a 21' x 36' commercial plastic film greenhouse, for about $1000, from
Stuppy at (800) 877-5025 or E C Geiger at (800) 432-9434, and put it up over
the pool. Or build an A frame over the pool, with Dynaglas for the south side
and ferrocement over kerfed 16' 2 x 4s, every 4', for the curved north side.
Attach a garage door opener to the top, to lift up the pool cover to an angle
of about 45 degrees, when the sun is shining and the pool needs heat. 

5. Make a hollow bench along each 16' edge of the pool, to form an air
distribution plenum, for the space under the pool. At one endwall of the
greenhouse, make a 4 ft^2 vertical airshaft or duct from the peak of the
greenhouse to the middle of the bench. Fit a 2000 cfm exhaust fan (perhaps
solar powered) to the middle of the bench at the other end of the pool. 

In the Philadelphia area, in January, the average amount of sun that comes
into the greenhouse, Ein, is about 12' (height) x 36' x 1000 Btu/ft^2/day, ie
430K Btu/day, over about 6 hours. The average outdoor temperature in this area
in January is about 30F. Say the pool were kept at 80F, in January.

Then the amount of energy that leaves the pool each day, Eout, would be about

    6 hours x 15 x 30 (80-30)/R1 = 135K thru the top, when the sun is shining,
+  18 hours x 15 x 30 (80-30)/R12 = 34K thru the top, at other times,
+  24 hours x 360 ft^2 (80-30)/Rs = 430K/Rs, thru the sides.

So if Ein = Eout,  135K + 34K + 430K/Rs = 430K, so 430K/Rs = 261K, so the side
insulation would have to be at least Rs = 430K/261K, about R2, eg 1/2" of
white beadboard, glued to the sides of the pool.

If the 12,000 gallon pool were closed up, while the sun didn't shine for a few
days, it would initially lose heat at a rate of about 45K Btu/day through the
top, and 130K Btu/day through the R2 sides, so the water temperature in the
pool would initially decrease by about (45K + 130K)/(12,000 x 8lb/gallon) = 2
degrees F per day.

Possible enhancements include a solar pool cover to reduce evaporation losses
when the top is up, a white surface or a reflecting pond on the ground along
the south edge of the greenhouse, a layer of vertical glazing along the 30'
south side of the pool, tomato plants, an indoor herb garden, orange trees,
lights, fountains, insulation for the north greenhouse roof, and another layer
of glazing or UV-transparent Tedlar film for the south side, to allow tanning
in January. 

Nick

PS: This might also make a dandy sewage treatment system.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:53 EDT 1995
Article: 6643 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Winfield <winfield@CPCUG.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar panels (fwd)
Message-ID: <27921.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:28:17 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 27
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X-Status: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:14:53
From: ALAN NOBLE <anoble@balloons.win-uk.net>
To: balloon@lut.ac.uk
Subject: Solar panels

Following his historic solo crossing of the Pacific in a
Roziere balloon Steve Fossett is planning another long distance
balloon flight - I can't say what, but it will be with his existing
balloon. I would like to be able to equip him with lightweight
solar panels capable of generating around 13V dc (it has to be
greater than 12V dc to charge the batteries) at a minimum of 5
amps (preferably more). Solar panels for charging boat batteries
are easy to source, but the substrate is too heavy. Equally I
don't want to use film panels over the top of the balloon because
of the loss in the down-lead. My plan is to clamp lightweight
structures to the burner poles, top of the fuel tanks (so they can
be angled manually to face the sun), or even hang them below the
gondola in a cone or triangular config.
Does anybody on the list have knowledge of solar panel technology,
or is able to point me in the direction of somebody that does?
Please reply to my e-mail address - ANOBLE@BALLOONS.WIN-UK.NET - to
save clogging the airwaves. Many thanks. Alan Noble at Cameron
Balloons UK.


Solar panels (fwd)


From dpn@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu Sun May 14 13:41:53 EDT 1995
Article: 6644 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!maui.cc.odu.edu!kuroshio.ccpo.odu.edu!xanth.cs.odu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!tulane!news.tulane.edu!mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu!dpn
From: dpn@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (David P Norwood)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Date: 12 May 1995 00:45:56 GMT
Organization: Tulane University
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Andrew J. Paier (ajp2@po.cwru.edu) wrote:

: Kristjan Valur Jonsson writes:

: > Everyone will be responding to this, I think.
: > The 'dark side of the moon' traditionally refers to the side facing
: > away from us, not the side 'in the moon's shadow'.  The existance
: > of such dark side is due to frictional effects, or the moon being
: > a huge accurately navigated spacecraft.

: As we continue the thread that has very little to do with this news group...

: No, the dark side of the moon is in fact the part that does not get light, due 
: to the shadow of the moon itself.  The same part of the moon _always_ faces the 
: sun.  This causes the Dark and Light sides as we know them.  

: -AP

I know, I should post a serious answer, but this thread is just too 
entertaining...


From matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk Sun May 14 13:41:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6645 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!ussun2n.glaxo.com!ggr.co.uk!uknet!zippy.dct.ac.uk!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!doc.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!spherica.demon.co.uk!matmoose
Newsgroups: uk.environment,alt.culture.zippies,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Greenpeace & Earth First! reports on Shell in Ogoniland (fwd)
Message-ID: <800405325snz@spherica.demon.co.uk>
From: Mat <matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk>
Date: 14 May 1995 01:33:31 +0100
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1) Reproduced from Greenpeace Business, Feb.1995 no.23:

The Greenpeace campaign against the environmental degradation of the
Ogoniland in Nigeria continued last month with a demonstration outside
Shell's UK headquarters. A meeting also took place between Greenpeace
representatives and Shell executives to discuss the inextricable links
between the company and their oil extraction activities in Nigeria.

Royal Dutch Shell has been drilling oil in the Ogoni region since 1958,
extracting an estimated $30bn worth of oil over that time. As a result,
local people have suffered from spills, pipeline ruptures and fires.
Shell derives 14% of all its oil from Nigeria.

Last May, four Ogoni leaders were killed and a leading Ogoni
environmental activist, Ken Saro-Wiwa, was arrested and has been held
without being formally charged. Mr. Saro-Wiwa has been a persistent
critic of Shell's activities in the area.

Greenpeace released an internal Nigerian Government memo which suggests
the atrocities and human rights violations of Shell's opponents in
Ogoniland were carefully planned by the Nigerian military Government.

In discussions with Greenpeace on this highly complex issue, Shell
executives hid behind the 'it's not our problem' traditional response.
Greenpeace believes that a multinational like Shell - which is operating
a highly profitable operation in Nigeria, cannot possibly say they are
only interested in and responsible for the business of extracting oil.
Shell continues to play a major part in Nigeria's economy and political
system. It is impossible to separate business and politics.

The indivisible nature of this relationship is highlighted by the
actions of the Nigerian military. Many observers agree that the Nigerian
military is repressing Ogoni people to ensure that Shell oil continues
to flow.

Shell is inextricably linked with the environmental devastation in
Ogoniland. At the meeting Greenpeace pressed embarrassed Shell
executives on a number of issues:

* Given your involvement in Nigeria, are you happy that Mr. Saro-Wiwa
has been held in detention without charge since last May and may well be
sentenced to death? The lack of formal charges, legal representation,
and medical attention clearly worried Shell executives.

* Why have you been refused to allow an independant environmental
enquiry surrounding Shell's activities in Ogoniland? Shell were also
clearly worried about this and were considering backing down on the
issue.

Companies like Shell can and should be taking more positive actions in
situations like Ogoni. The generation of corporate profits demands more
responsible actions. If Shell worked as hard on its corporate and
environmental image in Nigeria as they do in Western Europe, these
problems would have been solved long ago.

Contact Paul Horsman on 0171 354 5100
==================================================================

2) Reproduced from Earth First! (London) leaflet:


                             KILLING FOR OIL
          Hundreds murdered, land polluted, villages decimated
                             GIVE SHELL HELL
                                May 18th

May 18th is Shell's annual general meeting. The director will tell
shareholders of Shell's impeccable environmental record, of their
strenuous efforts to support local community initiatives. Then the free
drinks and self-congratulatory banter. But behind the amiable efficient
image lies a darker truth.

                       You can be sure of Shell

In the past 30 years Shell have extracted over $200 billion from the
lands of Ogoni and other ethnic groups on the Niger Delta. In return the
Ogoni have been showered in black soot from gas flaring, and have seen
their farmland ruined by oil spills. When the Ogoni protest, Shell call
in the troops, and action which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds
of Ogoni.

                       International terrorism?

To Shell the Ogoni are expendable; profits made are certainly not. When
the oil runs out, company directors and shareholders in fortress Europe
will merely relocate operations elsewhere. Shell have already earned a
place in the hall of racist fame for their support of apartheid South
Africa. Then as now, they continue to maintain strict double standards
in the treatment they mete out to Africans and Europeans. Imagine 1000
people from Aberdeen being massacred for peacefully protesting about
pollution so bad that water is undrinkable and crops ungrowable...


"Once again from my detention cell I implore the international community
of men and women of goodwill throughout the world to prevail on the
Nigerian government and Shell to stop this carnage, this genocide."

 - Ken Saro-Wiwa (Ogoni tribal leader in prison on fabricated charges
 awaiting execution.)

"The web of multinational power can only be tackled by solidarity and
resistance which recognises no borders. We must respond to the
globalisation of the market with the globalisation of protest."

 - Arthur Scargill


                        Annual General Mayhem

Thursday 18 May, 9.30 AM, Queen Elizabeth Conference Centre opposite
Westminster Abbey. Be there. For more info ring 0171 254 2290.
                                                Earth First! (London)
=====================================================================

NB. I do not subscribe to any particular parties or pressure groups. I
hope the above helps to stimulate justice. (Above all keep it peaceful!)



From matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk Sun May 14 13:41:55 EDT 1995
Article: 6646 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!ussun2n.glaxo.com!ggr.co.uk!uknet!zippy.dct.ac.uk!warwick!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!noc.netcom.net!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!demon!spherica.demon.co.uk!matmoose
Newsgroups: uk.environment,alt.energy.renewable,alt.slack
Subject: London Street Reclamation Party! (See article '!' nearby)
Message-ID: <800412579snz@spherica.demon.co.uk>
From: Mat <matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk>
Date: 14 May 1995 02:15:11 +0100
Reply-To: matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Oops, just correcting the previous totally meaningless subject field..
dammit..

-- ++ +M.+ ++


From rtedw1@mdw012.cc.monash.edu.au Sun May 14 13:41:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6647 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mdw012.cc.monash.edu.au!rtedw1
From: rtedw1@mdw012.cc.monash.edu.au (Russell Edwards)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hemp,aus.general
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Date: 12 May 1995 00:31:05 GMT
Organization: Monash University
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3oua89$3g7@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>
References: <3of7jc$ot4@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> <3og78h$9ke@larch.cc.swarthmore.edu> <3ojvhj$nid@d2.tufts.edu> <3ot7ee$49p@misc1.microserve.net> <3otbcn$kdr@larch.cc.swarthmore.edu>
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Azeez Hayne <ahayne1@cc.swarthmore.edu> writes:

>>  Geez. Noone who's watched dope smokers passively goofing and yukking 
>>their way through life would call hemp the most "benign" plant known to 
>>man. I'd say that _basil_ is the most benign plant known to man (or woman 
>>for that matter). Hemp is probably slightly to the other side of 
>>belladonna. Also (if you know your history, which you apparently don't), 

 Belladonna is a very dangerous plant. Marijuana in a recent (supreme
court?) inquiry was found to be one of the safest therapeutically
active drugs known to man. Safer than boiled potatoes. I don't know what
you mean by "goofing and yukking their lives away", but I think that
many chronic marijauna smokers enjoy their lives more than most non-smokers.
You don't see rastafarians going to war and killing eachother...

>>the dope scare of the 20s was due more to widespread use of opiates in 
>>patent medicines (cough, colic and the like) than anything Hearst did. 
>>The "secret ingredient" in such medicines resulted in very widespread 
>>addiction in the U.S. population. Thus the general public probably knew 
>>more about real addiction and drug dependency than it does today. You'd 
>>probably be a lot better off if you smoked basil. More clearheaded, 
>>anyway.

 What do opiates have to do with marijuana? The dope scare of the 20's
(wasn't it the 30's?) was due to WR Hearst's beat-up newspaper articles
which talked about people smoking the "killer weed". Anslinger based most
of his argument on these fallacious articles, not on patent medicines.

  Anyway, even if you _do_ think the drug should be illegal, shouldn't
low-THC (with virtually zero potential for recreational use, or as you
would put it "abuse") strains of hemp be legal? They are biological
inferior to real hemp but they're still better than nothing.

Russell
-- 
    Russell Edwards  --  voodoo@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au  --  IRC: VoodChile
 Student of Computer Science and Electrical and Computer Systems Engineering
 -\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-\|/-
I lost a sock so I called Information. She said "It's behind the couch" S Wright 


From joshmyers@delphi.com Sun May 14 13:41:57 EDT 1995
Article: 6648 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet
From: Josh Myers <joshmyers@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Sunpower Stirling Engine
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 00:49:51 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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Status: O
X-Status: 

the sd100 is kind of old technology isnt it?.  William Beale has move
a long way past that engine.  as I remember that was sort of 1978?
design.  he is up working with cummins on free piston generators for
solar applications now.  they have a 7.5kw unit built and running.
i cant remember if beale has an address at the shop but he did have
an e-mail address at ohio state I think.  a good description of the sd100
in "lecture notes in engineeing" by walker and senft,  springer-verlag
publishers
jm


From rarnold@teleport.com Sun May 14 13:41:58 EDT 1995
Article: 6649 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!usenet
From: "Ralph D. Arnold" <rarnold@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Any Experince with Savonius Rotor Windmills?
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 22:50:57 PST
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 7
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I received an interesting catalog from Jade Mountain (18004421972),
which lists a book discussing how to build a wind generator from
oil drums, titled "Savonius Rotor Construction".  Have any of you
personally built these and, if so, any tips or experiences that might help
me?  Any add'l reference books you'd like to recommend?  
Thanks!   Ralph     rarnold@teleport.com



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:41:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6650 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Will Stewart <will1000@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Looking For Information
Message-ID: <4066.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 14:00:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 40
Status: O
X-Status: 

You wrote:

>  As i am (hopefully) soon to become an owner of land in Montana
>  on which i intend to build a house, i'm interested in any
>  information (ie Books, Magazines etc) on the following...
>
>     1. Wind powered generators

Sign up with Tom Gray's Wind Energy Weekly mailing list

>     2. Solar for water heating  (ie Swimming Pool / Domestic Supply).

Several publications can help here.  Try  "The NEW Solar Home Book" for
starters.

>     3. Solar Powered generators (probably not viable??)

This is an area I am looking into also (I assume you mean more than
just photovoltaics).  There are different types of generators to
examine, from stirling cycle to more traditional steam cycle (using
Freon or some other working fluid).  Downsides with a generator include
the requirement for more maintenance than PV panels, due to moving
parts, high temps, and reliance on many components and environmental
conditions.

I have some education and experience as a power systems engineer and
would enjoy tinkering with a solar powered generator, but would have to
consider the extra effort as part of my "gee-whiz, this is neat"
effect.

I am interested in using summer solar energy collected (parabolic or
1-axis concentrator) for A/C (probably not needed in Montana).
Dessicant and absorbtion techniques (besides landscape and chimmney)
are the ones I'm trying to get more info on.  Anybody have any leads
for *affordable* solar A/C?

Regards,

Will Stewart
Re: Looking For Information


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 14 13:42:04 EDT 1995
Article: 6651 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Renewable News Network <rnn@WORLD.STD.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NEW ENGLAND ENERGY TASK FORCE (NEETF)
Message-ID: <4785.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 14:16:04 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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1:30 PM Tuesday, May 16, 1995 TASK FORCE MEETING

Conference Rooms, 11th Floor, One Congress Street,
Boston, MA.

The theme will be "Electricity Competition:  How
Efficiency and Renewables Can Plug-In."  Speakers
include:

=F9 Theo MacGregor, Conservation Coordinator, MA Division
of Public Utilities, Boston, MA
=F9 Jeanne Sole, Staff Attorney - Conservation Law
Foundation, Boston, MA
=F9 Donald Bradshaw, Senior Consultant, Arthur D. Little,
Cambridge, MA
=F9 Larry Alexander, Executive Director, Consortium for
Energy Efficiency, Boston, MA
=F9 Erika Morgan, Deputy Commissioner, MA Division of
Energy Resources
=F9 Harvey Michaels, President-CEO, Xenergy Corporation

Each speaker will make a brief statement, respond to
comments and questions from co-speakers and then the
floor will be open for questions from meeting
participants.

Organization and Work Group Coordinators will report as
appropriate on current activities, accomplishments and
challenges.  Our goal is to promote more efficient energy
use and a better balanced energy resource system to
assure an adequate supply of energy at reasonable costs.

If you wish to continue to receive NEETF Agendas and
Minutes, please send your request to:

Hugh Saussy, Jr., Director - Region I
Department of Energy - Boston Office
One Congress Street
Boston, Massachusetts 02114

              --------> <RNN> Renewable News Network
                                  info@rnn.com
NEW ENGLAND ENERGY TASK FORCE (NEETF)


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:34:12 EDT 1995
Article: 6799 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Moon !-This can't go on - Oops!  I guess it can.
Message-ID: <hatunenD8zru3.DF1@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <3pe2s0$ge0@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3pq5o6$qd8@jac.zko.dec.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 18:10:51 GMT
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3pq5o6$qd8@jac.zko.dec.com>,
Larry Smith USG <larrys@alpha.zk3.dec.com> wrote:
>
>In article <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>
>>I've addressed the point, Larry.  You stated:

[...]

>>	2)  The moon has a two-week day/night cycle.
>
>That is a two week day, and a two week night.

Given the definition of "cycle", it is a stretch to claim it means what
you say. It may have been what was meant, but it is not what it says.

>>These two claims are consistent with each other, and both are wrong.  Why not
>>admit you posted incorrect information rather than claiming that your bullshit
>>was a typo?
>
>Because there is a world of difference between "bullshit" and blooper.
>But obviously, that's lost on you.  You must think John F. Kennedy was
>a jelly donut, too.  If you want to believe I think the above, fine.
>Whatever makes you feel better.  I am more interested in the fact that
>this newsgroup is far more interested in scoring points rather than
>debating them.

Carl and I are interested in science. What you posted was out and out
wrong, and has no place in a newsgroup purporting to deal with science
and technology.  Anyone can mispost. God knows I've done it often
enough, especially early on a Monday morning. But I hope I'm not afraid
to say "Oops, sorry about that".



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From bryanc@mpservices.com Sun May 28 16:34:13 EDT 1995
Article: 6800 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.starnet.net!wupost!usenet
From: BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 22 May 1995 18:33:20 GMT
Organization: MPSERVICES
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <3pqldg$5au@news.starnet.net>
References: <3op58o$ip6@eplet.mira.net.au> <3orca9$41@nrel.nrel.gov> <3p0h31$hq@news.starnet.net> <3pji5cINNemu@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>
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In article <3pji5cINNemu@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs.yale.edu says...
>Is that book fiction?  I would hope so.  Cold water below warm water is
>stable.  (As long as we are talking about water above 4 degrees C).
>Thus one cannot get energy by just pumping it around as suggested
>above.  Cold water above warm water is unstable, and one could get
>energy out of it.  But such a situation would not occur in the ocean;
>the cold water would sink to the bottom.
>

	Maybe I didn't explain this well enough.  I have attached an ASCII 
diagram of the system and will try to give a better explanation.  Also no 
one said anything about pumps.  What about thermal inversions and 
upwellings?

>I hope there has been no research on that type of OTEC system, but one
>never can tell what might get funded these days.
>

	I hope there has.

>Norman Yarvin                                           yarvin@cs.yale.edu
> "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that
>  they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly,
>  and one by one." -- Charles Mackay

	OK here goes the explanation again.  The process is initiated by 
cooling the water in the outflow pipe.  this causes the water to become 
denser and therefor unstable.  The water flowing out of the outflow pipe 
sinks to below the thermocline.  The water that is sinking from the outflow 
pipe causes a partial vacuum and water will flow from a higher pressure to 
fill this space.  Now the water can come from either the outflow pipe or the 
feed pipe, but the outflow pipe is "blocked" by the cold water falling from 
the outflow pipe so the water comes from the air preasure on the oceans 
surface pushing the water up the feed pipe.  Before a lot of people start 
screaming this is the same principle that a soda straw works on.  If there 
is no air preasure on the surface of the liquid a straw won't work (the 
liquid would also boil).  If you continue this until cold water from below 
the thermocline is moved up and into the outflow pipe it will become self 
sustaining *as long as* the surface water is warmer than the water below the 
thermocline.  This is not perpetual motion or magic.  It relies on the sun 
warming the surface of the ocean so that the temp above the thermocline is 
warmer than below, and the earth retaining an atmosphere.  If both  
conditions are not met the system does not work.  Personally if the second  
of these conditions were not to be met I think OTEC units would be the least 
of our worries. 

	Basically what this system does is create an artificial upwelling 
and harnessed the power.  Besides power generation this system would bring 
nutrients up from below the thermocline.  This could possibly make fish 
farming near the outflow pipes economicaly feasible.



                                                     ///// <- SUNLIGHT
  ||             ||  ||  ||  ||  AIR PRESSURE      //////
  \/    |--|     \/  \/  \/  \/                  //////
        |  | <-- ALTENATOR                     ///////     OCEAN SURFACE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
         |  <--- TURBINE SHAFT
       ------
       | |  ------------\  OUTFLOW PIPE
       | |  ----------\  \
       | |  |          \  |                                   <--- CURRENT
       | |  |           |X|    X=COOLING SYSTEM TO
       |----|           | |      INITIATE SYSTEM
       | -- | <- TURBINE
       |    |
       |    |                                               THERMOCLINE
------ |    |---------------------------------------------------------------
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |  <-- FEED PIPE
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |
       |    |



From dccoote@werple.mira.net.au Sun May 28 16:34:14 EDT 1995
Article: 6812 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!usenet
From: dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 15:51:31 PST
Organization: werple public-access Internet
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In article <3pmc9gINNhdh@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs.yale.edu 
says...
[snip, snip]

Since we both agree we're talking about currents caused by energy
transfer systems using insolation as the driving force, I'm not entirely 
sure why Mr Yarvin's previous post focuses on tidal systems. Tidal 
systems depend on the gravitational bulge of water following the Moon 
and/or the Sun.

Anyway, Mr Yarvin has requested data on the Gulf Stream. Luckily "Sun 
Traps" gives details on just such a scheme.

32 km east of Miami, the Gulf Stream whips past at about 2.5 m/s. One 
scheme proposed to exploit this energy source can be summarised thus:
        - 230 turbines on the ocean floor.
        - Each turbine 168m across.
        - Vertical axis machines.
        - Total system to produce 10 GW.
        - Price, at the time, of about $1/watt.
        
Let's look at some criticisms of this kind of scheme.

Difficult to build underwater. At the depths proposed the off-shore oil
drilling industry has developed the required construction techniques.

Large unsightly structures. Underwater so not visible.

Bad for marine life. Slow moving blades.

Hazard to shipping. Build 'em so the top is below the keel depth and/or 
post details of the system as a shipping hazard.  

No light. Only relevant during construction and maintenance. Underwater 
lighting systems available for these purposes.

Extreme pressures. Don't put them too deep.

Now this scheme wasn't built for some reason or other. I would be 
interested if anyone knows why. One reason may be that the proposed 
turbines - which were of an innovative design - didn't work out as 
expected.

On another note, Mr Yarvin's previous post contained the word 
"fraudulent" scattered liberally about referring to my figure for the 
total energy of a 4-knot current. A quick check of my Shorter OED reveals 
that "fraudulent" implies an attempt to deceive. It is not "fraudulent" 
to quote the total energy contained in a system. How much of this energy 
is available for useful work is then an engineering matter. For instance, 
a chemistry text reports the total energy liberated from C + O2 -> CO2. 
How much of this energy is used depends on whether the reaction occurs in 
a fuel-cell, candle or steam engine and then whether secondary extraction 
techniques are used.



From yarvin@cs.yale.edu Sun May 28 16:34:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6815 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!admii!cmcl2!yale.edu!not-for-mail
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 22 May 1995 05:44:39 -0400
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
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yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) wrote:

>>>Actually there's one situation where one could get energy from this
>>>sort of thing.  Cold water gets generated at the poles, and destroyed
>>>in the tropics.  Thus there are underwater 'rivers' of cold water
>>>running along the bottom of the ocean, away from the poles.  One could
>>>do all the usual hydroelectric stuff to these rivers.  However before
>>>going gaga over this notion, one must consider the difficulties such
>>>as: 1. one would have to build stuff at the bottom of the ocean where
>>>there is (a) no light, (b) extreme pressures, and (c) lots of corrosive
>>>salt water; 2. the energy density is extremely low so that one would
>>>have to build truly immense installations, meaning about a thousand
>>>times bigger than an above-water dam to give the same amount of power.
>>>(The thousand times is my crude estimate of how much the density is
>>>different between hot and cold water.)

David Coote's postings prompted me to think a bit more about the above.
First of all, though tapping 'rivers' of cold water does indeed require
that one operate on the bottom of the ocean, there's also of course hot
water going in the other direction; it's on the top of the ocean, thus a
lot easier to reach.  One faces only the normal difficulties of
operating underwater, rather than the obscene depths of mid-ocean.

My top-of-the-head estimate of the density difference between hot and
cold water was wrong.  I'd been remembering some figures for thermal
expansion of solids.  But looking it up in Halliday and Resnick, I find
that instead of my estimate of less than one part in a thousand, the
change of density of water (between 4 and 30 degrees C) is more like
one part in two hundred.  The computation that's based on this goes as
follows.  Suppose you have a dam of height h, holding back a heavier
fluid of density A; on the other side of the dam, there is a lighter
fluid of density B.  Then the pressure difference at the bottom of the
dam will be h*g*(A-B), where g is the gravitational constant.  In dams
of rivers, the second fluid is air, so the density B is zero.  In dams
of hot and cold water, the density B is very close to the density A;
they differ by the factor of one part in two hundred which I mentioned
above.  Thus the height of the dam has to be two hundred times greater
to get comparable pressures.  The energy available from tides is
comparable by the same method.  The height difference available is only
the height of the tides, generally six feet or so, but the working
fluids are again water and air.  In some rare places the tides are
greater: as much as 40 feet in the Bay of Fundy.

Lacking comparable pressures, one can try using immense amounts of
turbine.  Still, to get halfway reasonable pressures, one needs to dam
up the flow somehow.  How does the entire southern coast of the US
sound as a dam?  The hot water is trying to go north, but North America
is in the way.  On the top and on the left side this dam is complete.
On the right side the dam was extended downwards a bit (that place
called "Florida") but then left unfinished.  Thus hot water can spill
out of the dam on the right; but since it's still something of a dam,
the water spills out with a speed which vaguely approaches being useful.
Of course I didn't think of this myself, just realized that it was what
was happening in the following scheme:

dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote) writes:
>32 km east of Miami, the Gulf Stream whips past at about 2.5 m/s. One 
>scheme proposed to exploit this energy source can be summarised thus:
>        - 230 turbines on the ocean floor.
>        - Each turbine 168m across.
>        - Vertical axis machines.
>        - Total system to produce 10 GW.
>        - Price, at the time, of about $1/watt.

That's pi*(168/2)^2 square meters of area that each turbine sweeps out,
for a total of 5.1 square kilometers of turbine area.  A square
kilometer is rather large.

The water speed quoted is 2.5 meters/second.  From the above-mentioned
geography I'd guess that this is the fastest the Gulf Stream goes
anywhere, and that in most places it's considerably slower.  But we'll
see what could be done with 2.5 meters/second.  The figure I'd computed
previously for a water speed of 2.1 meters/second, was a recoverable
energy density of 1.6 kilowatts per square meter.  Multiplying it by
(2.5/2.1)^3, we get 2.7 kilowatts per square meter.  The quoted figures
claim that the net electrical power out of the system is about 2
kilowatts per square meter.  That's an efficiency of about 75%, which
has to account for all of the losses including losses in the turbines,
in the gearboxes, and in the generators.

>Let's look at some criticisms of this kind of scheme.
>
>Difficult to build underwater. At the depths proposed the off-shore oil
>drilling industry has developed the required construction techniques.

Drilling rig construction mainly involves building the structure on
land, floating it out, then sinking it.  Naturally the sunken part of
the structure is designed to just sit there and require no
maintenance.  (Structures don't always work as designed, even those
with no moving parts, so some maintenance is occasionally necessary.)

Aside from the structure, there's also the shaft which goes down to
support the drill and then later to suck the oil up.  This is also
built on land, assembled above-water, then lowered into the water.
It's assembled piece by piece as it is lowered.  The drilling head is
pretty complex, so it can be lifted up above water when necessary for
inspection and repair.

I suppose we could float out a 168 meter turbine after building it on
land.  168 meters is about the length of a battleship.  The battleship
is a lot less than 168 meters wide, but then the turbine doesn't need
16-inch cannons or armor plate.  The bearings for this turbine need to
be sealed against salt water and also easily replaceable, but that's
not an insurmountable problem -- just a very hard one.  The generator
can be above water, like with oil rigs' machinery.  


>Bad for marine life. Slow moving blades.

The blades would move on the order of 2.5 meters/second, since that's
the water speed.  Seems to me that in addition to producing electricity,
this would be a fine defense against Russian missile submarines.  :-)


>Now this scheme wasn't built for some reason or other. I would be 
>interested if anyone knows why. One reason may be that the proposed 
>turbines - which were of an innovative design - didn't work out as 
>expected.

Seeing as the expected efficiency of the turbines was so unreasonably
high, this would not be surprising.


>On another note, Mr Yarvin's previous post contained the word 
>"fraudulent" scattered liberally about referring to my figure for the 
>total energy of a 4-knot current. A quick check of my Shorter OED reveals 
>that "fraudulent" implies an attempt to deceive. It is not "fraudulent" 
>to quote the total energy contained in a system.

The interesting quantity in discussions of power plants is always the
amount of energy that can be recovered.  To quote some other figure and
call it the energy, with no other comment given, cannot be regarded as
anything less than a deliberate attempt to deceive; though the
deception is not necessarily on your part or even on the part of the
quoted book.  There's a lot of nonsense floating around; detecting it
all is sufficiently difficult as to be beyond human ability, though one
can certainly make an effort.


> How much of this energy 
>is available for useful work is then an engineering matter. For instance, 
>a chemistry text reports the total energy liberated from C + O2 -> CO2. 
>How much of this energy is used depends on whether the reaction occurs in 
>a fuel-cell, candle or steam engine and then whether secondary extraction 
>techniques are used.

What I derived was (if I did not make an error) the proportion of the
energy that is extractable by any technique whatsoever.  That is to
say, some techniques may extract even less, but none can exceed it.  If
I made an error in this, I would welcome hearing about it; it would not
be the first error I've made.


--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu

 "I defy anyone to trick me. Men would have to be exceptional rascals to be
  as bad as I assume them to be." -- Emperor Napoleon I [conversation, 1816]


From dietz@comm.mot.com Sun May 28 16:34:16 EDT 1995
Article: 6821 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!rochester!comm.mot.com!dietz
From: Paul Dietz <dietz@comm.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
In-Reply-To: <3plnau$2tv@buffnet2.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <9505221341.AA06287@shark>
Sender: daemon@cs.rochester.edu (Old Scratch)
Organization: Software Engineering Research Lab
References: <3ombsd$3u8@netnews.upenn.edu> <3op58o$ip6@eplet.mira.net.au> <3orca9$41@nrel.nrel.gov> <3ovkhj$1v4@daisy.pgh.wec.com>
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In article <3plnau$2tv@buffnet2.buffnet.net> Bill Smythe wrote:

>  In southern California,
> desalinization of seawater is economically infeasible not
> because of the power needed to desalinize the water but
> the power needed to pump it uphill to the users.

I don't believe this.  Desalinization by reverse osmosis currently
uses around 20 watt-hours/kilogram of water.  This is enough energy to
lift the water more than seven kilometers straight up.

Communities near oceans, such as Santa Barbara, have not gone for
desalination (although S.B. was thinking about it during the last
drought).

Perhaps you are thinking of the theoretical limit for the energy
required by desalination (around 1 Wh/kilogram, I understand).

	Paul



From larrys@alpha.zk3.dec.com Sun May 28 16:34:17 EDT 1995
Article: 6824 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!crl.dec.com!crl.dec.com!jac.zko.dec.com!larrys
From: larrys@enemax.zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith USG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !-This can't go on - Oops!  I guess it can.
Date: 22 May 1995 14:05:58 GMT
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In article <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:

>I've addressed the point, Larry.  You stated:
>	1)  The moon rotats once per fortnight;

That's a blooper.

>	2)  The moon has a two-week day/night cycle.

That is a two week day, and a two week night.

>These two claims are consistent with each other, and both are wrong.  Why not
>admit you posted incorrect information rather than claiming that your bullshit
>was a typo?

Because there is a world of difference between "bullshit" and blooper.
But obviously, that's lost on you.  You must think John F. Kennedy was
a jelly donut, too.  If you want to believe I think the above, fine.
Whatever makes you feel better.  I am more interested in the fact that
this newsgroup is far more interested in scoring points rather than
debating them.

*plonk*
-- 
Larry Smith --- My opinions only.           larrys@zk3.dec.com/larrys@io.com.
"It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into
error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling
into error." - U.S. Supreme Court.  And we are doing a damned poor job of it.


From konjohn@eua.ericsson.se Sun May 28 16:34:19 EDT 1995
Article: 6826 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas93c11!konjohn
From: konjohn@eua.ericsson.se (John Self)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Stockholm EV exhibition - Report
Date: 22 May 1995 12:58:51 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 93
Distribution: world
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The exhibition of electric vehicles in Stockholm on Sunday was very interesting - 
there were more than 80 vehicles there, ranging from an electric cycle to a hybrid 
sports car. Two of the EVs were very old showpieces: a fire engine from about 1905 
and a small flatbed delivery truck from about 1920. But the rest of the vehicles 
displayed were practical every day units for transporting people or delivering goods.

The city of Stockholm obviously takes alternative energy sources seriously. The 
company Stockholm ENERGI operates its own fleet of Volkswagen Golf (Rabbit) cars, 
and charging points are available at 14 city parking areas. Another city company 
runs a mixed fleet of 19 EVs.

I have outlined the EVs below and I have a lot of other material, including some 
prices, phone and fax numbers of the manufacturers or suppliers. If anybody wants 
more information, send me an e-mail with your fax number, and I'll mail/fax you. 

Finally, something to look out for this year: The Scandinavian Electric Car Rally 
>from  Gothenborg to Oslo between 2 and 5 August. 
Contact: SECR 95, Box 53, 401 20 Gothenburg, Sweden. 
Tel: 031 62 60 61 Fax: 031 62 60 66. I have one colour brochure in English which I would be pleased to post on, otherwise give them a call for more information.
 
There were two main classes of EVs, three wheel and four wheel, with variations on 
the basic theme within the class.

THREE WHEEL

Most of this class were utility vehicles. 

There were about 15 yellow Post trucks used for mail delivery in the Stockholm 
suburbs. These were a rather curious design called TUGGER, with front steering 
on one wheel, but the other two wheels were staggered, not aligned together at 
the rear. There was 120 degree access to the mail on the waist-high L-shaped 
load platform. Range 40 km, with 800 stops, all-weather capability. 
Max load 300 kg.

The ELEBRA Carry would be at home used for park, estate, golf course maintenance: 
single seat over the rear wheel and a flatbed with box or cage attachment, tipper. 
Max load 400 kg. Platform 1250 x 1250 mm. 

EZGO similar to above. Company: Ground and Garden, Stockholm 08 621 40000.

City El was a very sleek, low-slung, single seater. It had a semi-reclined driving 
position, canopy hinged at the front that takes the instrument panel and steering 
wheel with it when you lift it up. Just like being in a high-performance sailplane. 
Also available as a convertible. max speed: 60 kmh. Weight 400 kg, motor max 3.5 kW, 
nominal 2.5 kW, 36 V supply. 8 hours between charges. Made in Denmark. $2500.

FOUR WHEEL

SOLON - definitely the best-looking car - a red sports car which used hybrid drive technolgy: a three cylinder diesel turbo driving a generator. max speed: is 
110 kmh (70mph). Battery charge time 5 hours. Electric motor power 40 kW, diesel 
8 kW. Diesel consumption 2 litres/hour. The two doors opened out and then flipped 
up and forward like the Lamborghini Countach.

Kewet - a small two-seat hatchback shopper with a small load area. Jazzy colours 
but quite expensive. Top speed 60 kmh. Range 50 km at 50 kmh.

Volkswagen Golf Citystromer based on the successful VW Golf (US = Rabbit), and 
operated by the Stockholm ENERGI company. max speed: 110 kmh, range: 80 km at 50 kmh, 
65 km at 70 kmh, 56 km in city traffic.

CITYVAN 200 is based on a small Japanese delivery van, converted to electric 
operation by a Finnish company. max speed: 80 kmh, acceleration 0 - 50 kmh 13 sec, 
range: in city 70 km, motor power 22 kW. A local delivery company uses these vans.

Solectria Force 95 - a four-door compact saloon (Chrysler Neon size). Photo only, 
but looks very sleek. max speed: 115 kmh, range: 70 - 100 km with lead acid batteries, 
120 to 150 km with "other" batteries.

There was even a 340 series Volvo hybrid that used a Honda portable generator as 
the power for charging the batteries. Novel idea that. Looked like a private 
conversion, but well carried out.

Renault Extra van, based on the Renault 5 car.

Ford Escort vans and estate cars.

THE CYCLE
Rexoped 2000 is a bicycle with a motor built in to the front wheel hub, small
battery pack on the back carrier, motorcycle twistgrip throttle. Max speed: 22 kmh, 
range: 20 - 25 km, 2 hour charge time, weight 26 kg. Battery 36 V/4 Ah. 
Very impressive. Made by the Swedish bicycle firm Rex.

      //
     //
\\  //
 \\//
  \/ohn   "Yield to temptation - it may not pass your way again"  
  

[my employer only sponsors the bandwidth, not my opinions]





From carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6828 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Moon !-This can't go on - Oops!  I guess it can.
Date: 22 May 1995 15:37:20 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
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References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <95051117290200141@po.cwru.edu> <3ovsjr$k6h@hawk.branch.com> <jimdavis.30.000B7C62@teleport.com>,<3p81sa$bu2@jac.zko.dec.com> <3p8dho$se1@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,<3pagnj$pet@jac.zko.dec.com> <3pbmq4$7h8@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,<3pdlkf$km9@jac.zko.dec.com> <3pe2s0$ge0@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
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Status: O
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In article <3pq5o6$qd8@jac.zko.dec.com>, larrys@enemax.zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith USG) writes:
=
=In article <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
=
=>I've addressed the point, Larry.  You stated:
=>	1)  The moon rotats once per fortnight;
=
=That's a blooper.
=
=>	2)  The moon has a two-week day/night cycle.
=
=That is a two week day, and a two week night.

SO you'r asking us to believe that you don't know what the word "cycle" means
rather than that you got the length of the cycle wrong.  Either way, you're
clueless, especially given that you claimed that your bullshit was what any
well-educated person would know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.


From yarvin@cs.yale.edu Sun May 28 16:34:22 EDT 1995
Article: 6846 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!venus.sun.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news3.near.net!yale!news.ycc.yale.edu!not-for-mail
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 22 May 1995 20:21:30 -0400
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
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Message-ID: <3pr9qaINNmdg@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>
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bryanc@mpservices.com writes:
|	OK here goes the explanation again.  The process is initiated by 
|cooling the water in the outflow pipe.  this causes the water to become 
|denser and therefor unstable.  The water flowing out of the outflow pipe 
|sinks to below the thermocline.  The water that is sinking from the outflow 
|pipe causes a partial vacuum and water will flow from a higher pressure to 
|fill this space.  Now the water can come from either the outflow pipe or the 
|feed pipe, but the outflow pipe is "blocked" by the cold water falling from 
|the outflow pipe so the water comes from the air preasure on the oceans 
|surface pushing the water up the feed pipe.  Before a lot of people start 
|screaming this is the same principle that a soda straw works on.  If there 
|is no air preasure on the surface of the liquid a straw won't work (the 
|liquid would also boil).  If you continue this until cold water from below 
|the thermocline is moved up and into the outflow pipe it will become self 
|sustaining *as long as* the surface water is warmer than the water below the 
|thermocline.  This is not perpetual motion or magic.  It relies on the sun 
|warming the surface of the ocean so that the temp above the thermocline is 
|warmer than below, and the earth retaining an atmosphere.  If both  
|conditions are not met the system does not work.  Personally if the second  
|of these conditions were not to be met I think OTEC units would be the least 
|of our worries. 
|
|	Basically what this system does is create an artificial upwelling 
|and harnessed the power.  Besides power generation this system would bring 
|nutrients up from below the thermocline.  This could possibly make fish 
|farming near the outflow pipes economicaly feasible.
|
|
|
|                                                     ///// <- SUNLIGHT
|  ||             ||  ||  ||  ||  AIR PRESSURE      //////
|  \/    |--|     \/  \/  \/  \/                  //////
|        |  | <-- ALTENATOR                     ///////     OCEAN SURFACE
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|         |  <--- TURBINE SHAFT
|       ------
|       | |  ------------\  OUTFLOW PIPE
|       | |  ----------\  \
|       | |  |          \  |                                   <--- CURRENT
|       | |  |           |X|    X=COOLING SYSTEM TO
|       |----|           | |      INITIATE SYSTEM
|       | -- | <- TURBINE
|       |    |
|       |    |                                               THERMOCLINE
|------ |    |---------------------------------------------------------------
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |  <-- FEED PIPE
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|

It still doesn't work, but the part that you got wrong was the part
where you told us not to start screaming.  Which means you can probably
figure out yourself what's wrong.  Anyway, I'll comply with your
request and remain silent.


--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
 "People say I am like Captain Bligh.  I am disappointed.  I considered
  myself more like Attila the Hun." - H. G. Rickover


From bryanc@mpservices.com Sun May 28 16:34:23 EDT 1995
Article: 6862 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 23 May 1995 13:52:16 GMT
Organization: MPSERVICES
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>It still doesn't work, but the part that you got wrong was the part
>where you told us not to start screaming.  Which means you can probably
>figure out yourself what's wrong.  Anyway, I'll comply with your
>request and remain silent.
>
>
	Your reply was quite civil and appreciated.  If this really 
doesn't work I would like to learn why.  The part where I was talking 
about the it working like a soda straw is based on (and I may not have 
this quite correct) Pascals theories of fluid pressure.  This is what 
describes the basic reason a straw and hydraulics work among other 
things.  If you have an explanation of why this system wouldn't work I 
would appreciate knowing what it is.

thanks in advance
Bryan Cort



From yarvin@cs.yale.edu Sun May 28 16:34:24 EDT 1995
Article: 6869 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 23 May 1995 20:17:19 -0400
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
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bryanc@mpservices.com writes:

>	Your reply was quite civil and appreciated.  If this really 
>doesn't work I would like to learn why.  The part where I was talking 
>about the it working like a soda straw is based on (and I may not have 
>this quite correct) Pascals theories of fluid pressure.  This is what 
>describes the basic reason a straw and hydraulics work among other 
>things.  If you have an explanation of why this system wouldn't work I 
>would appreciate knowing what it is.

What you said about fluid pressure was correct, as far as it went;
it just didn't go far enough.  I am going to be cruel and drag you
through the detailed physics of the thing. :-)  Let's look at the
pressure everywere in and around the system, that is, on the
points marked P1, P2, P3, P4, P5 on your diagram:

|
|  ||             ||  ||  ||  ||  AIR PRESSURE
|  \/    |--|     \/  \/  \/  \/    
|        |  | <-- ALTENATOR		-->P1<--
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|         |  <--- TURBINE SHAFT
|       ------
|       | |  ------------\  OUTFLOW PIPE
|       | |P3----------\  \
|       |____|          \  |                                   <--- CURRENT
|       | __ |<- TURBINE |X|    X=COOLING SYSTEM TO
|       | P5 |           | |      INITIATE SYSTEM
|       |    |            -->P2<--
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |                                               THERMOCLINE
|------ |    |---------------------------------------------------------------
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |  <-- FEED PIPE
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       |    |
|       | P4 |
|

	1. Air pressure on the surface of the ocean, call this Patm.

	2. Pressure at the end of the outflow pipe.  This is provided
	   by a combination of atmospheric pressure and the pressure of
	   the ocean water above the end of the outflow pipe.  This
	   latter pressure is Ho*g*Rhot, where Rhot is the density of
	   hot water, and Ho is the height of the outflow pipe.  Call
	   this P2; it is given by
		P2 = Patm + Ho*g*Rhot.

	3. Pressure at the top of the outflow pipe.  This is the
	   pressure at the bottom of the outflow pipe, minus the
	   pressure of the column of cold water in the outflow
	   pipe.  The pressure of the latter is Ho*g*Rcold, where
	   Rcold is the density of the cold water.  Call this P3;
	   it is given by
		P3 = Patm + Ho*g*Rhot - Ho*g*Rcold
	   which reduces to
		P3 = Patm + Ho*g*(Rhot-Rcold)

Since the density of hot water is less than that of cold water,
this is a partial vacuum.  So far everything is going fine.  But
now by the same methods we compute:

	4. Pressure at the bottom of the feed pipe.  This is
	atmospheric pressure, plus the weight of the hot water
	above the thermocline, plus the weight of some of the cold
	water below the thermocline.  Call the height of the
	thermocline Ht, and the height of the part of the feed
	pipe which is below the thermocline Hf.  Call this
	pressure P4; it is given by
		P4 = Patm + Ht*g*Rhot + Hf*g*Rcold

	5. Pressure in the feed shaft just below the turbine.  It
	doesn't matter where the turbine is in the system, so I'll
	put it at the very top of the feed shaft.  This way the
	pressure on one side of the turbine is P3, and the
	pressure on the other side is P5, which is gotten in much
	the same way we got P3: by subtracting off the pressure of
	the cold water in the feed pipe. 
		P5 = P4 - (Ht*g*Rcold + Hf*g*Rcold)
	which reduces to
		P5 = Patm + Ht*g*Rhot + Hf*g*Rcold - (Ht*g*Rcold + Hf*g*Rcold)
		P5 = Patm + Ht*g*Rhot - Ht*g*Rcold
		P5 = Patm + Ht*g*(Rhot - Rcold)

The pressure to pump the turbine is then P5-P3, which is:

	P5-P3 = Patm + Ht*g*(Rhot - Rcold) - (Patm + Ho*g*(Rhot-Rcold))

	      = Ht*g*(Rhot - Rcold) - Ho*g*(Rhot-Rcold)

	      = (Ht-Ho)*g*(Rhot - Rcold)

In this equation , Ht (the height of the thermocline) is greater
than Ho, so that part is positive, and Rhot is less than Rcold, so
that part is negative.  The constant g is positive, so the end
result is that P5-P3 is negative.  Whoops!  Our turbine will be
turning backwards.  Hot water will be sucked in the outflow pipe, go
through the turbine, and go down the feed pipe, until it reaches the
thermocline where it'll stop, since at that point there will be no
cold water above hot water and thus no energy available from piping
water around.


--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
 "The weeping philosopher too often impairs his eyesight by his woe, and
  becomes unable from his tears to see the remedies for the evils which
  he deplores.  Thus it will often be found that the man of no tears is
  the truest philanthropist, as he is the best physician who wears a
  cheerful face, even in the worst of cases." -- Charles Mackay


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:34:25 EDT 1995
Article: 6870 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Moon !-This can't go on - Oops!  I guess it can.
Message-ID: <hatunenD937zs.5vH@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3osrbk$9eg@eldborg.rhi.hi.is> <95051117290200141@po.cwru.edu> <3pqb3g$8d8@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <D92oM4.5ty@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <D92oM4.5ty@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, Neil Ferguson <ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <3pqb3g$8d8@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>> In article <3pq5o6$qd8@jac.zko.dec.com>, larrys@enemax.zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith USG) writes:
>> =
>> =In article <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>> =
>
>< lots of unnecessary arguing deleted >
>
>    I don't suppose there's any way you pair could transfer this 
>to email? It gets boring seeing you constantly going around in 
>circles...

Do you always keep reading stuff you find boring? Why?

Are you sure you are qualified to speak for everyone about what is
boring? Would you favor periodic votes in each newsgroup to decide
which threads are boring?



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From bryanc@mpservices.com Sun May 28 16:34:26 EDT 1995
Article: 6878 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Q: OTEC - Any Experiences out there ??
Date: 24 May 1995 17:19:27 GMT
Organization: MPSERVICES
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References: <3pqldg$5au@news.starnet.net> <3pr9qaINNmdg@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> <3pspag$cmo@news.starnet.net> <3pttufINNpbe@HOBBES.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>
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	I am off till monday so I'll check the math this weekend.  I dug 
out the book last night to double check what I remembered.  The diagram 
is the same as the one I reproduced but there was a mention in the 
article of a "working fluid" system that uses ammonia that doesn't show 
on the diagram.  I think I may have put my foot in it this time.  Let you 
know monday after a little research.

Bryan Cort
  




From ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk Sun May 28 16:34:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6889 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
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From: ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Neil Ferguson)
Subject: Re: Moon !-This can't go on - Oops!  I guess it can.
Message-ID: <D92oM4.5ty@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Sender: cnews@dcs.ed.ac.uk (UseNet News Admin)
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3pqb3g$8d8@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
> In article <3pq5o6$qd8@jac.zko.dec.com>, larrys@enemax.zk3.dec.com (Larry Smith USG) writes:
> =
> =In article <3ph8l8$n35@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
> =

< lots of unnecessary arguing deleted >

    I don't suppose there's any way you pair could transfer this 
to email? It gets boring seeing you constantly going around in 
circles...

< assuming _I_ remember, any further comments I make will be by 
  email >

-- 
Neil Ferguson                  Email to: ngf@dcs.ed.ac.uk 
Microelectronic Engineering at Edinburgh University in Scotland!

It wasn't me!


From rod_franklin@nrel.gov Sun May 28 16:34:28 EDT 1995
Article: 6907 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nrel!rfrankl.nrel.gov!rod_franklin
From: rod_franklin@nrel.gov (Rod Franklin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Detox
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:28:26
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
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In article <21811.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Bill Parker
><bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au> writes:
>>Can anyone update me on the plant that was using focussed solar thermal
>>energy and titanium dioxide catalysts to purify polluted water. I think it
>>was Sandia in New Mexico. What's the latest?

Can't say, but I am looking for solar detox demonstration projects to report 
to the international CADDET database project. The CADDET renewable 
energy database, quarterly newsletter, and technical brochures are 
distributed to national CADDET teams in about a dozen countries.

Would appreciate any leads for solar detox demos, or: 1) energy from chemical 
waste combustion 2) solar industrial process heat 3) passive solar ventilation.

Rod Franklin at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory: 303-275-3826.



From men3cah@sun.leeds.ac.uk Sun May 28 16:34:29 EDT 1995
Article: 6908 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hemp,aus.general
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From: men3cah@sun.leeds.ac.uk (The Ageing Hippie)
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Originator: men3cah@sun.leeds.ac.uk (C A Harriss)
Message-ID: <1995May26.102141.16581@leeds.ac.uk>
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Organization: University of Leeds, England
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:21:41 +0100 (BST)
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    <arnt.42.801408003@gribb.hsr.no>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <arnt.42.801408003@gribb.hsr.no>, arnt@gribb.hsr.no (Karlsen, Arnt          ) writes:
> In article <3phcou$csj@grivel.une.edu.au> tnelson2@metz.une.edu.au (Tao Nelson) writes:
> >From: tnelson2@metz.une.edu.au (Tao Nelson)
> >Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
> >Date: 19 May 1995 06:10:38 GMT
> >
> >: belladonna. Also (if you know your history, which you apparently don't), 
> >: the dope scare of the 20s was due more to widespread use of opiates in 
> >: patent medicines (cough, colic and the like) than anything Hearst did. 
> >: The "secret ingredient" in such medicines resulted in very widespread 
> >: addiction in the U.S. population. Thus the general public probably knew 
> >
> >
> >WHAT THE FUCK'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH HEMP ?!?!!
> >
> >please excuse me shouting, but hemp is not, and never was an opiate.
> >prohibition was, and still is, purely ecconomical and political.  
> >
> 
> 
> PttfffFFFFFFfff {Flame on}
> f
> f Dear
> f
> f  [x] sir      [ ] clueless one  [ ] twit          [ ] great man on campus
> f  [ ] madam    [ ] dweeb         [ ] twerp         [ ] comrade
> f  [ ] Elvis    [ ] moon beam     [ ] boor          [ ] Untersharfuehrer
> f  [ ] citoyen  [ ] Geek          [ ] grad student  [ ] cur
> f  [ ] net.god  [ ] AOL'er        [ ] Prodigite     [ ] wannabe net.god
> f
> f You are being gently flamed because.
> f
> f  [ ] you continued a boring useless stupid thread
> f  [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to
> f  [ ] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads
> f  [ ] you posted a piece riddled with profanities
> f  [ ] you advocated Net censorship
> f  [x] you SCREAMED! (used all caps)
> f  [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group
> f  [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article (or
> f     similarities)
> f  [ ] you posted an unsupported net.rumor
> f  [ ] you threatened others with physical harm
> f  [ ] you made a bigoted statement(s)
> f  [ ] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority
> f  [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve
> f  [ ] you repeatedly shown lack of humor
> f  [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every threat
> f  [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack
> f  [ ] you posted [  ] for sale messages that should have been just one
> f  [ ] you did not post test messy in alt.test (or similar newsgroup)
> f  [x] you did not include an OBJoke
> f
> fffffPtt {Flame off}
> 
> 
> Hemp is the source of hashish, a drug quite similar to mariuana, pot or 
> grass, only a little stronger, that can be smoked.

- However, as the man said; none of these drugs are opiates. The active
ingredients in them are THC in both higher and lower forms, and also cannabidiol
which has no effect but to give you the "munchies". There are _no_ opiate
substances in any pure cannabis derivative, although there _is_ a form of
cannabis resin, referred to as "double zero" where I come from. This has opium
mixed in with the resin, and hence does contain opiates. However, this is quite
rare (I have come across it once in four years) and is not thesame thing as
hashish or marijuana.

> >>> Thank you for the time you have taken to read this. Live n' Learn.<<<

- Live and learn right back.
 
Luv,

Ageing Hippie


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6909 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!newsboy.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <15300.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 21:45:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Status: O
X-Status: 

>just recently heard/read about a proposal to use pizeo crystals in the
>soles of shoes to generate small amts of electricity (to power what was
>either not stated or i forgot it)

Piezo electric power is transferred to the parcel house's Eko-powerbus
which is embedded in the home's eco-floor.  The power--very little
energy is produced--is used to run the eco-micropower-fans and the super
efficient, multi ported, dual pump, high velocity bidet.

Power not used for the parcel house is not wasted; as with more
conventional uses of Piezo-electric powered shoes, remaining power is
used to run mini-LEDs in the eco-people's non-plastic, non-rubber, non-
leather, non-cotton (canvass)-based shoes.

Jim; (with a dwindling few of all the answers)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information





                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6910 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Steve Brown <sb@pinn.net>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <16038.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 22:08:27 GMT
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I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.

Take for example the electric bikes with alternators to allow
not only the charging of the batteries while the cyclist peddles
but also during downhill travel.

Steve

On Thu, 25 May 1995, J Eyer wrote:

> >Marge Wood asks:
> > > why couldn't the wind rushing past the vehicle
> > > be funneled into something with a blade hooked to a battery?
>
> Tom Gray Responds:
> >Although it is not intuitively obvious, Marge, this is a perpetual
> >motion thing.  You can't capture enough energy to make up for the
> >additional drag on the vehicle that whatever structure you design to
> >extract the energy creates.
>
> Nice response Tom.  If it of interest, I had many opportunities to
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From tonyc@sna.com Sun May 28 16:34:32 EDT 1995
Article: 6911 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: tonyc@sna.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: New Battery
Date: Thu, 25 May 95 15:14:49 PDT
Organization: Sacramento Network Access
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> I recently read an article about a new "zinc-air" battery that is 
going to be 
> used in Germany to power Postal vans.  The article claims the 
battery can get 
> about 400 miles on a charge.  If anyone has any info on this 
process please 
> let me know.
> 
> Thanks 
> Terry Cupp
> tcupp@accessnv.com
> 

Terry I don't have direct knowledge on this, but you might
want to contact UC Davis here in California.  Their Department
for Transportation Studies is working on this battery.  Speak
with Dr. David Swan, as he heads up that department.

UC Davis won the Phoenix Electric 500 auto race this past March
with this same battery.






From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6912 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Larry Lyons <advanced@IX.NETCOM.COM>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: --Kenetech Bird/Wind Research
Message-ID: <16390.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 22:14:15 GMT
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You wrote:
>
>/* Written 11:18 AM  May 23, 1995 by tgray in igc:energy.news */
>KENETECH PROVIDES UPDATE ON
>BIRD KILL RESEARCH EFFORTS
>
>      Kenetech Windpower, which has sponsored an Avian Research
>Task Force to study the problem of bird collisions with wind
>turbine rotors, has released a detailed update on the group's
>activities.

Tom:

>From  where could I obtain the full text version of this update?

Larry  Lyons

Re: --Kenetech Bird/Wind Research


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:34:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6913 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <hatunenD95osM.63x@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
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In article <16038.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Steve Brown  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

>I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
>are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.

You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
energy it took to get up the hill, right?

>Take for example the electric bikes with alternators to allow
>not only the charging of the batteries while the cyclist peddles
>but also during downhill travel.

Now I know you're joking. You've got to know that the energy to run the
alternator comes from the energy the bicyclist used to climb the hill.
Or, on level ground, that the bicyclist is supplying the energy for the
alternator.


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6914 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Steve Burdic <sburdic@SERVICES.MORE.NET>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Missouri's First Biopower Conference
Message-ID: <2988.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 03:05:27 GMT
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Revitalizing Rural Missouri.  June 7-8, 1995

A 2 day conference on way more than you ever (till now) wanted to know about
biomass utilization issues.  Designed as a Primer on these issues for a
Missouri audience, but everyone is welcome!  National perspective on June 7,
Missouri perspective on June 8.  Cost is $25 per person.  Limited exhibit
space is available.  Call Sam Orr at (314) 751-4000 for exhibit information.

Call Wilma Steinman at (314) 751-4000 for more information, conference
registration and hotel accomodations.
Respond to Steve Burdic via e-mail if you choose not to use the telephone or
the mail.  Suggestions welcome on other lists to post this announcement.

Topics:

June 7:

USDA Biopower Programs
Vern Ronigen, Ph.D.

DOE Biopower Programs
Michael Reed

The Federal Biopower Commercialization Strategy
Ralph Overend- NREL

Direct Fuel Cell:  A High Efficiency Power Generator for Biofuels
Eric Simpkins
Energy Research Corporation

Energy Crop Resources
Lynn Wright
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

The Utility Perspective on Biopower
Jane Turnbull
Electric Power Research Institute

June 8:

A variety of Missouri conservation, regulatory, financial and business
speakers will address energy crops, waste utilization, environmental issues,
current activities and implementation strategies.

Co Sponsored by:
The Missouri Dept. of Natural Resources, Division of Energy
Union of Concerned Scientists
US Dept. of Energy

Location:
Ramada Convention Center
1100 Vandiver Drive
Columbia, MO  65201
What's in a name
 A rose by any other name
would smell as sweet

Missouri's First Biopower Conference


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6915 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV costs MORE?
Message-ID: <3046.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 03:10:04 GMT
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Marge wonders...
>I am curious about why the people who have PV panels installed on their
>roofs have to pay more for their electricity.  It ought to be the other
>way around?

Well Marge, its surprising that it is only a token amount more,
considering the fact that pv ENERGY production cost (yes, granted, as
defined using environmentally insensitive traditional financial
criteria) is 3 - 5 times higher than that from almost any other
electricity generation technology.  So why shouldn't the person with pv
pay THREE TIMES more?  (By the way, I assume you mean utility-owned pv.)

My conclusion, grid connected pv may be very difficult to justify, in
most cases, on sound economic bases.  (Nope, not even if you give a 100%
credit for pvs' "green" electrons over those disgusting "black"
electrons or those despicable "glowing" electrons.)

One other theory, perhaps it's another manifestation of that pervasive,
insidious conspiracy to keep pv and renewables at bay.  More later...

Jim; (PhD. 20th Century Butlerian Philosophy)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information





                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
PV costs MORE?                                                               R


From search4um@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6916 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: search4um@aol.com (Search4Um)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CA Power Plant Manager
Date: 25 May 1995 01:39:44 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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POWER PLANT MANAGER

A unique career opportunity exists for a seasoned independent power
production professional able to take complete charge of  a
solid-fuel-fired, CFB power production facility.

A superior staff is in place and the company is postured well with regard
to the sale of the energy it produces. 

The concerned facility is less than 60mw in size and is located in
California away from major metropolitan congestion. 

The entity is privately  held and the incumbent will report to the
president. 

The incumbent will have middle-level management support in each key
functional area, and have responsibility for a total personnel complement
(direct and indirect reports), of less than 75.

A comprehensive benefits package is offered, including in part: annual
base compensation of $85K+/- DOE, and an annual bonus of up to 25% of
base.

This is an eleventh hour opportunity, but there is still time if you
immediately fax your resume to:  Larry V. Combs, Esq. @ 805-831-1839     
E-mail:  Search4Um@aol.com





From search4um@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:37 EDT 1995
Article: 6917 of alt.energy.renewable
From: search4um@aol.com
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: R&D Funds Available in CA
Message-ID: <8275.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 05:42:25 GMT
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Not a direct reply, but thought you may be able to think of an appropriate
candidate for the position described below:

POWER PLANT MANAGER

A unique career opportunity exists for a seasoned independent power
production professional able to take complete charge of  a
solid-fuel-fired, CFB power production facility.

A superior staff is in place and the company is postured well with regard
to the sale of the energy it produces.

The concerned facility is less than 60mw in size and is located in
California away from major metropolitan congestion.

The entity is privately  held and the incumbent will report to the
president.

The incumbent will have middle-level management support in each key
functional area, and have responsibility for a total personnel complement
(direct and indirect reports), of less than 75.

A comprehensive benefits package is offered, including in part: annual
base compensation of $85K+/- DOE, and an annual bonus of up to 25% of
base.

This is an eleventh hour opportunity, but there is still time if you
immediately fax your resume to:  Larry V. Combs, Esq. @ 805-831-1839
E-mail:  Search4Um@aol.com



Re: R&D Funds Available in CA                                                R


From ktrout@earth.cnct.com Sun May 28 16:34:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6918 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: ktrout@earth.cnct.com (ktrout)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar thermal/Gas Hybrid Proj.
Date: 24 May 1995 06:13:30 GMT
Organization: The Connection (201)435-4000, (212)376-5141
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Rama Polefka (ez013053@peseta.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: On Mon, 22 May 1995, Nick Pine wrote:

: > Greetings Rama,
: > 
: > You might check out the patent issued to Norman Saunders on a solar
: > steam generator, which consists of a linear sort of cusplike concentrating
: > reflector below a glass boiler, with an intermediate radiation absorbing
: > mesh grid just below the waterline.
: > 
: > Nick
: > 
: > 

: Indeed I will!!!
: Do you have any additional info on his device?  How can I get
: ahold of this guy?

: Thank you for the info!

: Rama



    One ? I have is what are you planning to do with your steam.
    Any one can produce steam, in varying quantities, through any thermal 
    process.  The concern is that the correct process is used for the 
    amount of steam required for your application. Designs are usually 
    best worked out from the load to the source.

    So let us know exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

    ktrout


From coyote@buffnet.net Sun May 28 16:34:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6919 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: coyote@buffnet.net (Bill Smythe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hyrdo power with no moving parts
Date: Thu, 25 May 95 23:42:08 GMT
Organization: BuffNET
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nanos@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Nigel Jarman") wrote:
>Is it possible to produce electric power using water falling
>through a tube without moving parts, eg. no turbine?
>
>As I seem to remember that a liquid flowing through a pipe
>produces some form of static charge and one has to ground the pipe
>so as not to risk sparks if moving gas about,

Moving liquid around can in fact generate a static charge. While in some
cases it is even enough to produce a spark that could ignite flamable
vapors (they are paranoid about this sort of thing in refuling airplanes) it
will not generate enough to do any usefull work.

> I also seem to
>remember a japanese boat being able to move itself by using
>electromagnets to to move the water though a pipe at the front of
>the boat and out at the back with no moving parts, has something
>already been designed that uses some of the princibles here to
>produce electricity from hydro power but without blades/etc?

This is probably for use at sea.  Seawater is reasonably conductive
due to the salt in it.  Using this one can pass a current through it and
then use electromagnets to apply a counter force to the magnetic
field that the current induces.  This is exactly the same way some
types of electric motors work (some just use fixed magnets for the
rotor) except that it uses water as a conductor.

Just as you can run some electric motors in reverse as a generator
(you still need to run a current through the field coils), you can produce
electricity with moving salt water. This is called a magneto-hydrodynamic
generator. Again it works exactly the same as a regular generator-- when
you move charge carriers (i.e. a conductor - in this case the salt water)
through a magnetic field, it induces a voltage.  Of course the problem
with this is that it will release free chlorine and oxygen at the positive
terminal and hydrogen and metalic sodium (which will imediatly react
with water to form soduim hydroxide and hydrogen) at the negative
electrode  ---Doooh!

There is actually a way to produce compressed air from a stream of
water with no moving parts by entraining bubbles in the flow and
then letting them float out in a chamber below the surface where
the water ultimately comes out. The water is then held under the
water presure of head #2 in the ascii art below.  The energy to
compress the air comes from head 1

 Water input
_______________                                                      ____
                             |      |                                                   |
                             |  |   |                                                   |
                             | \/  |                                                   |
                             |      |                                              Head 1
                             |      |                                                   |
                             |      |                     Water outlet          |
                             |      |                     ___________ ___ |_____
                             |      |             |      |        |
                             |      |             | /\   |        |
                             |      |             |  |   |        |  Head 2
                             |      |-------------|      |      _|_
                             |      |  traped |      |
                             |      |   Air      |      |
                             |_____________|

Bill



From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:34:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6920 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <26024.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 02:52:03 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: semi-perpetual motion


From jamesfdean@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:40 EDT 1995
Article: 6921 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jamesfdean@aol.com (JamesFDean)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: webb site?
Date: 23 May 1995 23:58:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Does any one know the site that has surplus and recycled materials?  I
think it was called the exchange but I can't remember the whole address.
JD


From jamesfdean@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:41 EDT 1995
Article: 6922 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: jamesfdean@aol.com (JamesFDean)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: moters to alternaters?
Date: 24 May 1995 00:00:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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does anyone know if its possible to convert an electric moter to an
alternator or generator.
JD


From polarbeer@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:42 EDT 1995
Article: 6923 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: polarbeer@aol.com (PolarBeer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Artificial Logs
Date: 24 May 1995 00:44:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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If your looking for densified fuelwood logs which are essentially made of
waste wood products, here might be a connection:

Derald Kuhnhausen
Spokane Pres-To-Log
Spokane WA
Phone: (509) 924-2807

I hope that helps.

Regards,

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Phil St Jean
Northern Canada
polarbeer@aol.com
72774,3534@compuserve.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:43 EDT 1995
Article: 6924 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Dave Finnie <dave@insession.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: peat moss...any use?
Message-ID: <5426.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 04:09:16 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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> is there any use of peat moss as a fuel?
> peat moss...any use?

Before we get too much into using peat moss as a
fuel, could someone please comment on the environmental
impact of digging up peat bogs ?

My understanding is that we are already ravaging them
for agricultural and landscape uses, and that these
are a resource that renews very slowly, and is
particularly useful to the ecosystem.

Dave
Re: peat moss...any use?


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:34:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6925 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: New Battery
Message-ID: <22346.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 01:09:02 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: New Battery


From pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za Sun May 28 16:34:45 EDT 1995
Article: 6926 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!quagga.ru.ac.za!ucthpx!itu1.sun.ac.za!news
From: pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za (Pieter Claassen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Date: 25 May 1995 13:27:15 GMT
Organization: Chemical Engineering
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It is ironic to notice (especially me here in the third world) that all 
primary attemts go towards education.
Then the more advanced people thy to find solutions for the energy 
crisis.

All these efforts are inspired by politicians who control the money and 
have to be re-elected every few years.
We have a major problem. TO MANY PEOPLE.

TO MANY PEOPLE!

We have to face up to the fact that no amount of eduction will solve the 
problem because we have already exceded the critical mass (especailly in 
my hometown). I am not into selective culling, so how will we solve this 
problem?

Politicians are only interested in re-election and black suits. They will 
puncture condoms if it will get them re-elected.

I suggest that we sterilize a % of people at birth (I think a cold way of 
looking at it is random sterilization because no one can kill Steven H). 
We cannot depend on politicians to do this because it will not be the 
popular thing to do.

I am sorry that our forefathers have allowed things to get so out of 
hand, but we have no choice.

Imagine what it was like when there was a few million people around?

Where does renewable energy come in? Do you realise that if we are so few 
people, virtually all energy sources will become renewable.

Ask the dodo what he thinks of this!
P



From jade-mtn@indra.com Sun May 28 16:34:46 EDT 1995
Article: 6927 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!indra.com!NewsWatcher!user
From: jade-mtn@indra.com (Steve Troy)
Subject: Re: Solar thermal/Gas Hybrid Proj.
Message-ID: <jade-mtn-2405952235070001@192.0.2.1>
Sender: usenet@indra.com (System Operator)
Organization: Jade Mountain Inc.
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 05:35:07 GMT
References: <3pp1nk$muh@mark.ucdavis.edu>
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Hi Rama,

Here are some good books on steam generation you may be able to find:

Model Stationary and Marine Steam Engines by KN Harris
Model Boilers and Boilermaking - also by KN Harris
The Golden Thread by Butti & Perlin
Steam Power - a quarterly magazine from the Steam Centre, Station Road,
Kirk Michael, Isle of Man, UK

Please send me a copy of your report!

Steve

> Me and two cohorts are currently putting together
> a project for a thermal design class at UC Davis.
> It consists of solar thermal steam generation and
> natural gas fired steam.  I am looking for anyone
> with info or ideas on this subject.  I will gladly
> send out a copy of the final report to anyone who
> gives me feedback.  Thanks in advance.

-- 
Steve Troy
Jade Mountain
P.O. Box 4616
Boulder, CO  80306
phone:  800-442-1972
fax:  (303) 449-8266
email: jade-mtn@indra.com


From jhanson@ilhawaii.net Sun May 28 16:34:46 EDT 1995
Article: 6928 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!lehua!usenet
From: jhanson@ilhawaii.net (Jay Hanson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Looking for a copy of NYT lead article and Science article.
Date: 23 May 1995 19:14:29 GMT
Organization: InterLink Hawaii
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3ptc6l$fpj@lehua.ilhawaii.net>
References: <3pjjic$6oa@lehua.ilhawaii.net> <NEWTNews.30020.801006960.tonyc@tonyc.sna.com> <3pnu36$e1r@lehua.ilhawaii.net>
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In article <3pnu36$e1r@lehua.ilhawaii.net>, jhanson@ilhawaii.net says...
->
->In article <NEWTNews.30020.801006960.tonyc@tonyc.sna.com>, tonyc@sna.com says...
->->
-[simp]
-
->I tried but they don't have it (they do get the Sunday paper).
->Ever been to Hawaii?
->
->Jay

I got a copy.  Thank's Tom.



From dtracy@bnr.ca Sun May 28 16:34:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6929 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!brtph500.bnr.ca!b4pph10e!schoen
From: dtracy@bnr.ca (Dick Schoenling)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 25 May 1995 14:29:36 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, RTP, NC USA
Lines: 48
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3q248g$n1f@brtph500.bnr.ca>
References: <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
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In article <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk>, Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> writes:
|> Some thoughts:-
|> 
|> It Electric vehicles start to make a serious impact on our transportation
|> policy; then the fuel used will have to be made available at the home.

   Why? Is the gasoline pump you currently use available at your home?

|> 
|> In the UK the average house consumes 2 - 2.5 KW per hour, Peak demands
|> could reach 10 kw but that is unusual. 
|> 
|> Now consider an electric vehicle with a 40-50 kW engine, and, say,
|> it is used for 2 hours a day. If we assume an 80-90% charging efficiency
|> the average houshold will have to provide 100-KWh into the car over the
|> recharging period.
|> 
|> Given that electricity distribution systems have been designed around
|> the 2-3 kw houshold demand there will not be enough hours in the day
|> (given a 12 hour charging period, which is optimistic) to charge up
|> the car.
|> 
|> The answer would seem to be to enable each house to have greater average
|> demands. But if electric vehicles are to become the norm, then a wholescale
|> reinforcement of the electricity distribution system is on the cards.
|> 
|> An answer could be 'local generation' from renewables - or from micro
|> CHP around the stirling cycle.
|> 
|> Ideas please..
|> 

Changing the structure/capacity of the existing distribution network
would be prohibitively expensive as well as time consuming. It 
would be much easier to upgrade specific sites, e.g., recharge-parking
lots where you work, "battery stations" similar to today's gas stations
where you would change out the battery pack, assuming it is light
and manageable enough. Alternative power generation at home is also
a possibility. Numerous methods would be neccesary to accomodate
individual environments/requirements, etc. . All in all it will 
require the general public to re-think their position on energy,
both creation and use. All of which will take a long time.

Regards,

Dick Schoenling
Internet: dtracy@bnr.ca
Raleigh, North Carolina USA


From pdyoung@io.org Sun May 28 16:34:48 EDT 1995
Article: 6930 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!scipio.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!winternet.com!pinch.io.org!pearl
From: pdyoung@io.org (Paul Young)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Brazilian Ethanol
Date: Thu, 25 May 95 19:21:03 GMT
Organization: Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363 3783)
Lines: 6
Distribution: world
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Keywords: ethanol, Brazil
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I am working on a project and I need to locate some information on Ethanol
production and consumption in Brazil.

Does anyone know some recent figures?? Or could you point me in the right direction??

Thanks for your help


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:49 EDT 1995
Article: 6931 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Frank Lewon <Frank9966@aol.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: New Battery
Message-ID: <23636.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 01:46:08 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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The May issue of Electronic Design News had a small blurb reguarding the
special charging requirments of this type of battery. Frank
Re: New Battery


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:50 EDT 1995
Article: 6932 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "HUGHES, JOHN E" <hughesj@songs.sce.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Message-ID: <23689.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 01:50:20 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 8
Status: O
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     Previous post:
>Ask the dodo what he thinks of
>this! P

OK. What do you think of this?
JEH

Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1


From dccoote@werple.mira.net.au Sun May 28 16:34:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6933 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!usenet
From: dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Date: Fri, 26 May 95 10:42:16 PST
Organization: werple public-access Internet
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3q37u9$2tj@eplet.mira.net.au>
References: <3046.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
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In article <3046.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>, j.eyer@microex.com 
says...
[snip]

>One other theory, perhaps it's another manifestation of that pervasive,
>insidious conspiracy to keep pv and renewables at bay.  More later...

I was discussing this with someone the other day and we both agreed that 
it wouldn't be a conspiracy for some organisations to retard the 
development of PVs. Rather it is a good old fashioned, what made this 
country great, solid business like decision to extract as much as 
possible out of hairy chested fuel sources like oil and uranium instead 
of wimpy, pinko, slimeball stuff like photons from the Sun.

On a more serious note, I would be very interested if anyone can put this 
conspiracy stuff on the price of PVs to rest one way or the other. Of 
course, it is a bit hard to convince conspiracy buffs that their favorite 
pet peeve has been dealt with but I would be interested to see the 
arguments either way. Preferably without involving Elvis.



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:52 EDT 1995
Article: 6934 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Charles Bryant <bryant@gmpvt.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!agis!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Message-ID: <29475.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:14:28 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 17
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>All these efforts are inspired by politicians who control the money and
>have to be re-elected every few years.
>We have a major problem. TO MANY PEOPLE.
>
>TO MANY PEOPLE!
<<snip>>
>
>Ask the dodo what he thinks of this!
>P
>
I'll interpret this message as a joke, given the fact that the sender
mentions education, yet manages to blow a simple thing like the
usage of the word "TO" in place of the word "TOO".

C.

Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6935 of alt.energy.renewable
From: s_katipamula@ccmail.pnl.gov
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!agis!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ASME: Call for papers
Message-ID: <29534.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:20:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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     Abstracts are being solicited for papers in all areas of heating and
     cooling research and engineering for the American Society of
     Mechanical Engineering (ASME) Annual International Solar Energy
     Conference to be held on March 31 - April 3, 1996, in San Antonio,
     Texas.  The session topics include:  evaluation of performance of
     cooling and heating systems, solar thermal process heating and
     cooling, and thermally activated cooling systems.  All papers
     submitted will receive three independent peer reviews.  Accepted
     papers will be published in bound Conference Proceedings.  All authors
     are expected to present their papers at the Conference.

     Abstracts of approximately 500 words in length should be submitted to
     the Session-Chair listed at the bottom of this notice.


                                                        Deadlines

     Abstract submitted to Session-Chair                June 9, 1995
     Authors notified of abstract acceptance            June 16, 1995
     Five copies of papers due to Session-Chair         August 25, 1995
     Authors notified of final acceptance of papers     October 11, 1995
     Publication quality manuscripts due to
     Session-Chair                                      November 17, 1995


     Srinivas Katipamula, Ph.D
     Battelle, PNL
     P.O. Box 999, MSIN: K5-06
     Richland, WA 99352
     Phone: (509) 372-4592
     Fax:   (509) 375-3614
     e-mail:s_katipamula@pnl.gov

ASME: Call for papers


From pvpaulset@aol.com Sun May 28 16:34:55 EDT 1995
Article: 6936 of alt.energy.renewable
From: pvpaulset@aol.com
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Small Scale Hydrogen Prod
Message-ID: <777.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 15:51:30 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: PVPAULSET <pvpaulset@aol.com>
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 

Try Hydrogen Wind, rr 2 box262, lineville IA 50147.515-876-5665.
pvpaulset@aol.com
Re: Small Scale Hydrogen Prod                                                R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:34:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6937 of alt.energy.renewable
From: wesley price <wesley@PRICE.III.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply
Message-ID: <24831.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 02:13:42 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 6
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Lee Butler, go away !!!!!
If you do let me know where you'll be..
It's so awfully rare to find people of vision who are willing to go for it..
Thankyou for your inspiration

Re: AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:34:57 EDT 1995
Article: 6938 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD959zp.Jqp@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3pqka7$d1q@canyon.sr.hp.com> <95052301325600150@po.cwru.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 17:31:01 GMT
Lines: 80
Sender: hatunen@netcom8.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <95052301325600150@po.cwru.edu>,
Andrew J. Paier  <ajp2@po.cwru.edu> wrote:

[...]

>Okay, as long as we are dreaming of many people using EV cars, why not have a 
>battery policy at the "refill" stations like the old returnable bottles.  You 
>put a deposit on the battery, drain the energy, and return the empty for a full 
>one.  This way they could be recharged over time.  Of course, many of the 
>current battery designs might be difficult or impossible to easily replace, but 
>like I said, as long as we are dreaming...

There are serious problems with this approach, form the standpoint of
practicality. The batteries are big and heavy, and not that easy to
remove and replace. Specialized equipment would be used, but this would
require a large capitalization.

Imagine six or seven vehicles all sitting in a recharge station, with
large 800 lb batteries being moved around. Not only do the batteries
have to be removed and replaced from your vehicle, ditto for whatever
kind of recharging apparatus is required. Right now most gas stations
can run with one guy sitting in a bulletproof booth. A battery exchange
station would have to have several more employees, raising labor costs
considerably. 

Then ask yourself how many batteries the station would have to have on
hand, sitting in rechargers. At least a couple of hundred out on I-5.
Assuming each battery needs sufficient recharge for a two-hour freeway
run, and that about 20 HP is required out on the highway, a 40 HP-hour
recharge is required. This is about about 30 Kwh recharge. On a 24 hour
recharge cycle, each battery charger will draw a minimum of 5 amps at
240 volts. So each 100 batteries would require 500 amps at 240 volts. A
station processing 300 batteries a day would need a 1500 amp service
entrance, probably 2000 amp taking inefficency into account. 

And just where would you put 300 batteries weighing 800 lb each, in
such a way that you could retreive and replace them easily? Such a
battery is maybe, what, 3 ft x 4 ft x 1.5 ft? That's 18 cf, so 300 of
them would require 5400 cf. And maybe half again as much, or 8100 cf,
if you add in the racks and dead space and hydrogen venting around
them. So if the racks were 10 ft high, a floor space of 810 sf would be
needed. But the rack would have to be accessible from two sides so you
could get the batteries, so it would be 10 ft across and 81 feet long.

Whew.

But if a recharge were to cost only about as much as a tank of gas for
an econocar, say $10, then the place would be grossing about $3000 a
day. The 30 Kwh per car, at $0.10/Kwh here in California, would cost $3
per car, or $900/day. That leaves $2100. Six attendants on a 24 hour
schedule (includes a manager with sufficient skill to attend all that
electrical equipment) at an average of $7/hr pay, or $11/hr including
the usual labor overhead, would need $1584/day. That leaves $516/day to
pay the capitalization and rent, and make a profit.

But the installed equipment and plant will probably come to at least
$500,000, and the 300 batteries will add another $500,000 in capital
costs. Call it a cool million (I think that's low, myself). At 6%
that's $60K per year, or about $167/day in interest alone. And we
haven't added in the land cost. Or the other overheads.

And, of course, the station is going to need to replace exhausted
batteries on a periodic basis. How often? How? What happens tothe old
ones?

So what it comes down to is that such a station is going to have to
charge you $10 or more for electricity that would cost you maybe $3.50
at home (California rates). And even then will have a hard time turning
a profit.

But obviously my figures are only semi-educated guesses. Play with them
at will.



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Sun May 28 16:34:58 EDT 1995
Article: 6939 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Earthships house ???? -Reply
Date: 25 May 1995 17:50:59 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3q2g23$231@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <1347.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello,
Gaetan Mailloux <ba221@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>

Tell us about your Earthship! Have you started on it yet? What are you
doing to make it withstand the rain up there, since I understand that
adobe is not good in rainy climates.

Thanks
-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid)    E-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist,    The Ohio State University
There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the earth as if it was 
a business in liquidation.  -- Herman Daly, quoted in "Earth in the Balance"


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:34:59 EDT 1995
Article: 6940 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Message-ID: <26219.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 02:53:30 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Post_Office@ieaust.org.au
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:00 EDT 1995
Article: 6941 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: Hyrdo power with no moving parts
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 02:56:35 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: Hyrdo power with no moving parts


From mikep@auriga.unm.edu Sun May 28 16:35:01 EDT 1995
Article: 6942 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mikep@auriga.unm.edu (Mike Prine CIRT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: PV and hot air wind gens
Date: 26 May 1995 02:57:42 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
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Marge Wood (mwood@ACUVAX.ACU.EDU) wrote:
: I am curious about why the people who have PV panels installed on their
: roofs have to pay more for their electricity.  It ought to be the other way
: around.  Is this just a way to pay off the PV panel and when it is paid for,
: the surcharge stops?

	Hi again Marge, the simple answer on why they would pay more is 
that for a house with ready access to the electrical grid PV power is far 
more expensive than that produced by gas, coal, hydro or nuclear. That is
it cost the utility more to produce it in terms of dollars. If you want 
to talk "Real Costs", you can find numbers to support any point of view.
	As to why a customer would be willing to pay more for "green" 
power than for what you typical get, the reasons get very individual. I 
hope to eventially get our local utility to consider such steps but in 
the mean time I have my independent system that provides us with about 4 
Kilowatt hours a day.

	Sound like you have been busy down your way. Come next year I might 
want info on your sources for educational videotapes and slide shows. 
That care.

--
I get most of my electricity, at home, from the sun. | Bitnet:   mikep@unmb 
It's a hobby, who cares if it's cost effective!      | Internet: mikep@unm.edu
University of New Mexico in Albuquerque New Mexico, USA
2701 Campus Blvd NE 87131-6046 USA     Phone: 505-277-8135 | Michael L Prine


From davem@eskimo.com Sun May 28 16:35:02 EDT 1995
Article: 6943 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: davem@eskimo.com      (David B. Miller)
Subject: Sunspool Replacement Parts?
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  I've had an active solar hot water system in place for around 15 years. The
drain down valve stopped automatic functioning due to parts failure a few
years back. I'm not as good at remembering to manually drain down in cold
weather as the automatic system was.

 I am unable to contact the Sunspool Company in California from any info
that I have. Does anyone know - are they still in business? Or, is there a
place that would still stock repair parts? Or, could someone recommend a
reasonably priced replacement unit?

 Thanks, Dave


_______________________________________________________
  Dave Miller                                    Volunteer Firefighter                                                         
  Marysville, WA USA                           EMT-I, IV & Airway
  davem@eskimo.com                            Internet Junkie
_______________________________________________________


From gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca Sun May 28 16:35:03 EDT 1995
Article: 6944 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: gsteckly@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly)
Subject: Re: Water Engine.
Message-ID: <gsteckly.130.000E94BB@clark.dgim.doc.ca>
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Date: Fri, 26 May 95 18:38:25 GMT
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In article <3q2bb3$pid@hpaneqb4.an.hp.com> hughl@news.an.hp.com (Hugh Lippincott) writes:
>From: hughl@news.an.hp.com (Hugh Lippincott)
>Subject: Re: Water Engine.
>Date: 25 May 1995 16:30:27 GMT

>In article <1995May24.232530.25202@clark.dgim.doc.ca>, gsteckly@dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) writes:
>|> Peter Waring (P.Waring@irl.cri.nz) wrote:
>|> : In article <6557.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> "Frank S. Wadge" <GARPSTER@aol.com> writes:
>|> 
>|> : >Have I missed something? I was recently informed that one of the major auto
>|> : >manufacturers is about to start work on an engine using water as fuel. I
>|> : >suggested my informant meant a fuel cell breaking down water into hydrogen
>|> : >and oxygen, but apparently that's not it.
>|> 
>|> : The fuel isn't straight water, it's a mix of diesel fuel and water, for which 
>|> : gains in mileage and improved emissions are claimed. Caterpillar have, I 
>|> : believe, entered into a development deal with the inventor
>|> : P Waring
>|> 
>|> The June issue of Discover magazine (I bought it for the 6th annual 
>|> technology awards) has a brief item on this if anyone is interested.  The 
>|> inventor is Rudolph Gunnerman and the process is called A-55 (for 
>|> "aqueous 55 percent) since the water to fuel ratio is 55% water to 45% 
>|> naptha.  They claim it has the same "oomph" (I love their techno-jargon) 
as >|> gasoline at half the cost. Then in the next breath they say "even 
though >|> it is more than half water, it generally delivers two-thirds of the 
miles >|> per gallon of conventional gasoline.   The only catch is that to 
>|> modify existin IC engines to burn the fuel each piston has to be plated 
>|> with pure nickel, which they say acts as a catalyst for combustion.  
>|> Another advantage is  that it burns cooler and produces less smog-causing 
>|> nitrous oxide than gasoline.
>|> 
>|> Anybody elese heard anything more about this process?
>|> 
>|> Regards
>|> 
>|> Gary
>Sounds like an internal combustion steam engine.   The naptha burn is kept
>cooler and at lower pressure by the vaporization of the water absorbing the 
>energy [that keeps the NOx down].  Then the steam expansion drives the piston.
>How you keep the naptha burning, and burning completely, I don't know.

>As this rate you could powder coal and add it to the mixture, which could
>reform it and burn it all in one shot.  I think that the energy storage 
>density of the coal would be a lot higher than naptha.
>-- 
>        Hugh Lippincott              hughl@an.hp.com

That's an interesting analogy..."internal combustion steam engine". Actually, 
it reminds me of this interesting tidbit I picked up off Gary Hawkins webpage 
at eskimo.com.  It's an internal combustion hydrogen/steam hybrid I guess, 
since the water injection would serve the same purpose as it does in the A-55 
process; reducing the combustion temperature, minimizing the NO2 and keeping 
the parts from running too hot.

--------------excerpt begins-------------

Rotary Hydrogen Engine -- Direct from New Zealand.

A clean-burning rotary hydrogen engine is being worked on by a group in New Zealand.
Here's a statement from the principle member of the team, Wolf Brinsbury:

                STEAM ENGINE WITHOUT A BOILER


As hydrogen is much hotter than our present fuels, we are looking to turn this into an
advantage rather than a problem (as it has been considered in ordinary internal combustion
engines, causing an overheating of valves). What we propose with our rotary engine is to use
this higher temperature of the hydrogen as a catalyst or trigger.

We use water injection along with a small amount of hydrogen. On igniting, the heat turns the
water vapor into high pressure steam on each power stroke. We are not looking at power
being derived from the hydrogen. It will be from the steam with the hydrogen as the internal
heat source. This being the reverse of the present steam engine, where a large body of water
is heated externally. We use a small body of water internally.

To turn water into steam requires a temperature of 800 degrees F. Water per volume expands
1700 times, exerting tremendous force. This force is elastic, not like the hammer blows of the
internal combustion engine. The diesel engine obtains its heat from high compression of the
air reaching temperatures of 1000 degrees or more. This though, creates back pressure which
is power loss on the up stroke. With hydrogen and water we eliminate this. I cannot use the
term "stroke" as we have no piston, a round rotor revolves in a circle in one direction. 

Our first aim is to move into the marine field. We are looking to get away from the burning of
fossil fuels and the pollution of this planet. The oil companies are naturally limited in their
lifespan.

If you would like to contact this group, you can write to the following 
address. Please realize that merelycurious inquiries will consume time, and 
cannot be guaranteed a response. The need is for serious investors tobecome 
involved to speed up the development of this important work:

                           Wolf Brinsbury
                          15 Gibson Place
                          Howick, Auckland
                           NEW ZEALAND

----------------excerpt ends-----------------------

regards

Gary        




From ba221@freenet.carleton.ca Sun May 28 16:35:03 EDT 1995
Article: 6945 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Gaetan Mailloux <ba221@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Earthships house ???? -Reply
Message-ID: <1347.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 02:16:53 GMT
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Robert Sanders (rsanders@ALB.ASCTMD.COM) writes:
>>And also the pros and the cons of that kind of house ???
>
>   My concern about these is that they become rather indestructable.  The
> concept of taking tires, filling them with dirt (adobe mud) and adding an
> exterior coating of cement (and the variations thereof) creates a house
> the may not be dismatled using anything less than dynamite.


Yes, but for a poor man like me, a tire house are just what I can afford,
and it will be in the North of Ontario (Canada).

>
>   Houses should not always last more than 100 yrs (or other arbitary
> length of time).  Their components should be capable of being recycled
> into other structures.
>
>    Or the structure should be considered as one that will become a
> historic one that can have multiple lives.
>
>>Can we do comparisons versus the underground house ???
>
>   Sure, these are pretty much underground in that they are bearmed into
> the side of a hill.
>
>
>>It's seem to me, with the underground house, a good choice for wealth
>>of our ecosystem. At least better than a brick house :)
>
>   The type of house really needs to be selected for the area in which it is
> built.  An example, out here in the Southwest, adobe makes much more
> sense than a frame, log, or underground house.  (And yes we've got
> them all, including some huge log homes that are so out of place sitting on
> the mesa.)

Well it gone be in a quite cold area, North of Ontario are quite cold.

>
>    Indeed here, in New Mexico, building a house without passive solar
> features is just plain dumb.  OF course both here and over in Arizona I've
> seen some fine Cape Cod style houses just waiting for that nor'easter to
> blow in...
>
>   Bob (rsanders@alb.asctmd.com)
>
> Earthships house ???? -Reply


Re: Earthships house ???? -Reply


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:04 EDT 1995
Article: 6946 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Tom Gray <tgray@IGC.APC.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <6195.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 20:58:16 GMT
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<responding to Steve Brown>

Charging a battery on a bike is fine by me.  But you can't do it by
wind with a fixed structure without expending more energy than you get
back.  So not only do you have to pedal uphill, but it's just enough
harder to require more than you get back.  Now I suppose you could rig
up some sort of retractable gizmo and flip it out when you got to the
top . . .

Tom
Re: semi-perpetual motion


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:05 EDT 1995
Article: 6947 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Peter Wolfs <P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <28850.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:04:20 GMT
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I had suggested piezo electric crystals to power a pair of conductive tapes
wrapped around a pair of Wellington boots.

Those who like to bush walk in areas where leeches are a problem might find
this useful. Don't jump out of a tree.


>>just recently heard/read about a proposal to use pizeo crystals in the
>>soles of shoes to generate small amts of electricity (to power what was
>>either not stated or i forgot it)
>
>Piezo electric power is transferred to the parcel house's Eko-powerbus
>which is embedded in the home's eco-floor.  The power--very little
>energy is produced--is used to run the eco-micropower-fans and the super
>efficient, multi ported, dual pump, high velocity bidet.
>
>Power not used for the parcel house is not wasted; as with more
>conventional uses of Piezo-electric powered shoes, remaining power is
>used to run mini-LEDs in the eco-people's non-plastic, non-rubber, non-
>leather, non-cotton (canvass)-based shoes.
>
>Jim; (with a dwindling few of all the answers)
>
>                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
>    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
>                    EEE  N  II
>j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
>                    EEEEE  IIII Information
>
>
>
>
>
>                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
>Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R

Dr. Peter J. Wolfs                      [=---=]
Electrical Engineering                    \o/
Central Queensland University              X
Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
Australia
Tel +61 79 30 9599
Fax +61 79 30 9382


Re: semi-perpetual motion


From bwest@pixi.com Sun May 28 16:35:06 EDT 1995
Article: 6948 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!btnet!uunet!eskimo!news.pixi.com!usenet
From: bwest@pixi.com (Billy J. West Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Forestry Biomass
Date: 26 May 1995 02:45:22 GMT
Organization: Pacific Information eXchange, Inc.
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In message <3pvgug$8h8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> - CDAHOGBE@MECHANICAL.uwaterlo
o.ca (C Hogben) writes:
:>
:>Hi
:>
:>I'm doing a project on the use of biomass, specifically focusing of the use of 
:>forestry/wood biomass.

Why forestry/wood biomass?  Aren't we rapeing the forests enough as it is?  
Why not look into something that's renewable yearly vice several years?
Something, say, that's at least four times better than any other source of 
renewable biomas.


Bill..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        .--.             \    _   /\     \
       (OS/2)             \   \`o.o'      \     OS/2: Up and runing, NOT
        ~--~               \  =(___)=      \          up and coming...
    bwest@pixi.com          \    U    ACK!  \
http://www.pixi.com/~bwest   \      Windoze! \
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tomw@intelligraphics.com Sun May 28 16:35:07 EDT 1995
Article: 6949 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Tom Wheeler <tomw@intelligraphics.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??
Message-ID: <6876.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 21:14:57 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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>:>Nor is gulping a six-pack, or shooting up on heroine, or....  But (depending
>:>on the drug) there's a much greater chance you'll do something dangerous
>:>when you're high/drunk/whatever.
>
>Exactly!  The majority of people who drink, get violent after doing so.  The
>reverse is true for smoking hemp.  Hemp is an herb, not a drug.

I agree with the latter, but I wouldn't say that the majority of people who
get drunk get violent.  If they did, they'd soon weed themselves out of the
gene pool.  (Hmm, there's a really terrible pun in there somewhere....)

>:>Gee, I guess the time I spend at the range I'm really "killing" paper, huh?
>
>Trees, not paper.  Are your targets made of recycled paper?  ;)

Well, they are, actually!

>:>And I suppose self-defense doesn't matter, either?
>
>Self-defense or no, if he's dead, he's dead.

He's not dead, e's restin'!  Seriously, most self defense consists of showing
the gun.  Usually that's all that's necessary to send the bum away.

>Don't get me wrong here, I am not for gun control, that will only put guns
>in the hands of the criminal, but I am for the leagalization of canibus for

Okay, cool.  Your original statement "guns are just for killing" is typical
of the anti-gun folks who haven't ever even shot one.

>industrial, medical AND recreational use.  It's far better than the current
>system of pouring chemicals into the enviroment to feed the wealty and
>powerfull conglomorants.

Our drug policy is so ridiculous it's pitiful, agreed.  On the one hand we
let people buy alcohol and cancer-sticks over the counter; on another,
we don't let them buy marijuana; on a third, we don't let them buy
medicine without a doctor's permission.

>       (OS/2)             \   \`o.o'      \     OS/2: Up and runing, NOT
>        ~--~               \  =(___)=      \          up and coming...

Since I assume you're using OS/2 try PMMail, a shareware reader.  Get it
>from  the Hobbes ftp site under network/tcpip (or something close to that).

Coincidentally, I'm wearing a t-shirt with the above logo on it.

Regards,
Tom Wheeler


Re: WHY aren't we using biomass (yet)??


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:08 EDT 1995
Article: 6950 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: CA Power Plant Manager
Date: 26 May 1995 22:35:27 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
Lines: 26
Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Message-ID: <801519738snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
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In article <3q1570$s73@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
           search4um@aol.com "Search4Um" writes:

> POWER PLANT MANAGER
> 
> A unique career opportunity exists for a seasoned independent power
> production professional able to take complete charge of  a
> solid-fuel-fired, CFB power production facility.
> 
> A superior staff is in place and the company is postured well with regard
> to the sale of the energy it produces. 
> 
> The concerned facility is less than 60mw in size and is located in
> California away from major metropolitan congestion. 
>

Wow, a 60 milliwatt power station! Good thing it's well away from a 	
'major metropolitam cogestion' try 60MW next time..   - only kidding...


Regards
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:10 EDT 1995
Article: 6951 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 22:35:24 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
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Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Message-ID: <801518203snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
References: <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk> <3pqdcc$1hf@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <3pqka7$d1q@canyon.sr.hp.com> <801263268snz@mold.demon.co.uk> <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de>
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In article <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de>
           egn@philosys.de "Emil Naepflein" writes:

> In article <801263268snz@mold.demon.co.uk>,
> Peter Graham Thomas  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >I think I started this off, but Stan is homing into the problem. It's all
> >right to think of keeping up with a low penetration of EV's, individual
> >filling stations could find the space for their own 500 kVA transformer
> >to cope! - however it is true that the electricity distribution system
> >is designed for an certain energy density (in terms of kW average demand
> >per Customer). The diversity for electricity supplies is very high. You or I
> >could be taking 10-15 kW whilst your neighbour could be 'out'. On average
> >in the UK this comes down to 2-3kW per dwelling. 
> 
> I would assume that the electricity distribution system is designed
> for the maximum use. Or what do you think happens when everybody
> turns AC on in summer or resistance heating in winter? The network
> has to deliver or you would get brown-outs or black-outs. A properly
> designed network does even have additional reserves above the
> absolut maximum seen so far. In germany a normal house connection
> is 3 phase each with 240 V and a maximum of 16 A. This means I can
> use as much as 12 kW power. I have a yearly use of about 3000 kWh. 
> This converts to about 340 W. I am sure the distribution network
> and the power stations can not cope with demand when everybody
> is using their 12 kW. But I am sure there is enough capacity
> available to charge EVs during low demand periods, especially at night.

PGT again:-
Generaly electricity distribution systems are not designed for maximum use. 
They are designed around the R.M.S. value of customer load. As I said the
diversity is v high (12 to 0.34 kW!), and wilst your service cable is 
fully rated, the main power cable that runs down the street is sized 
on the 'diversity' of load on individual services so connected, plus a factor
dependant opon the type of heating used on the properties in the street 
(electric heating has an obvious effect on the cable size/length). 
There is also the matter of voltage drop - over the length of the main 
cable which will limit the useful length of the main. Anyway this 
is getting of the point.

Sure there are reserves in the system, and the idea of controling the time
when individual high loads are switched on (time-switch, radio control etc
are used, however this is only a panacea, not a cure.

> 
> >
> >Electricity Co's have most of their cash tied up in the distribution 
> >network, and a serious upgrade of this would cost billions. It would also,
> >in my opinion be stupid. Indeed I'm sure you are aware that a lot of 
> >electricity companies (mine included) are already looking at 'Demand
> >Side Management', that is actualy encorageing Customers to reduce demand
> >rather than investing in infrastructure upgrades and new Power Stations.
> >
> 
> When the charging of EVs is handled intelligently by the utilities
> you can have a lot of EVs before a upgrade of the distribution
> network is necessary. Demand side management is the important thing here.
> In germany it is already possible to use two tarifs. One for
> normal demand periods and one for low demand periods. The low tarif
> is normally half that of the normal tarif. The meter has two counters
> and the switch between them is done by a clock or in newer versions
> remote controlled by the utility. If you have a electric water boiler
> or electric space heating with storage capability, they are turned
> on automaticaly when the switch occurs and charged. This low tarif
> charging is not done with the full power. Instead it is only enough
> power used to charge it during the normal 8 hour low tarif period.
> In this way the load is levelled.
> Why couldn't the same scheme used for EV's? To level the load even
> more the utilities can control all the charging stations individually.
> You just enter the time you want the EV fully charged, and the
> the utility schedules the charging. This all can be controlled by
> sending messages on the phone network (or better ISDN) without
> any additional infrastructure. The tarifs can be used to give
> the people which use long charging periods, which are better for
> scheduling, an incentive. People which want the EV charged in
> a shorter period have to pay a premium.

See above. Yes time switching can, and will, be used - however it is
not the solution when EV's start to make a real indent in the transport
market.
> 
> >So there is a real issue here. If we are going to seriously into EV's
> >then the idea of clean, distributed (embedded) generation - connected
> >into the low or medium voltage networks has to be considered.
> >If mached to local loads such generation systems would also reduce 
> >energy losses in the distribution systems - by avoiding dragging 
> >the amps through the wires from the bid power stations (about 7% is 'lost').
> >
> >So think of ways of generating clean energy at maximum efficiency as close
> >as possible to where it is used - be it the Service Station or your
> >household.
> >
> 
> Here PV on roofs and small cogeneration units instead of regular
> furnaces can be used. PV is still to expensive, but it is a
> clean way to generate electricity.
> Small cogeneration units may be the best way in the near future.
> But they should be controlled by the utility to allow limited Supply Side
> Management. This way cogeneration units in your neighbourhood can
> be turned on when you have scheduled your EV for charging. The
> cogeneration units should have heat storage for several kWh to
> allow a better match of actual heat and electricity demand.
> 
> Cogeneration units are available in sizes from 3 kW. They have
> a much better total efficiency because the waste heat is used.
> The only problem is, that the utilities normally don't pay
> a fair price for the electricity.
> 
Spot on Emil. And they won't until it hurts - and it won't hurt until
they can't meet the demand without reinforcing the distribution network
at great cost - then cogen will come into it's own.



Regards

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:11 EDT 1995
Article: 6952 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 22:35:27 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
Lines: 35
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Reply-To: Peter@mold.demon.co.uk
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In article <3q37mt$k9v@dewey.csun.edu>
           hbphi002@huey.csun.edu "joseph oberlander" writes:

> There is a very easy way to do all of this, but it isn't cheap.
> 
> Use a giant flywheel.
> 
> Saves on space, no 800lb of batteries to store or hulk around, has the
> ability to dump 30Kwh in the required time(actually in a few ms, in
> theory), can be slowly recharged overnight by a generator, power lines, or
> even a simple diesel engine in emergencies.
> 
> Building huge flywheels for energy storage is easy to do, and is time and
> space-efficient.  No employees to pay, and you just have to get it checked
> about once a month to make sure it is in good shape.(Not to mention the
> jobs created for all the inspectors)
> 
> The only problem would be in the case of an earthquake or something that
> caused it to fail, but it would be built below ground to minimize
> damage.(probably less than a gas line rupturing, which happened hundreds
> of times when we had the last huge earthquake here, with no loss of life.)
> 
> Joe


Joe. Just how much energy can be stored in a flywheel for energy storage - 
and how much do they cost to install in $/kW and $/kWh? Does anyone know?

Regards 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:12 EDT 1995
Article: 6953 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Michael Kenney <mkenney@IGC.APC.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NEW WEB SITE FOR WIND GENERATORS
Message-ID: <4326.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 03:33:59 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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X-Status: 

Could you please post this on your newsgroup.

Sincerely,

Michael Kenney, EcoNet Program Volunteer

------------------------ EcoNet * APC Networks -------------------------
------------------- Institute for Global Communications ----------------
----------- 18 De Boom Street, San Francisco, CA  94107 USA ------------
---- Tel: 415-442-0220 Fax: 415-546-1794 E-mail: econet@igc.apc.org ----
E-mail to  econet-info@econet.apc.org  for more information about EcoNet
Our server URLs:  gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org/   http://www.igc.apc.org/
The U. S. Member of the Association for Progressive Communications [APC]
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 12:42:12 -0700
From: Rajiv Vaidyanathan <rvaidyan@d.umn.edu>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1b3 (Windows; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: econet@igc.apc.org
Subject: World Power Technologies
Old-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
X-Content-Type-Bogus:  text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

World Power Technologies is proud to announce its Web site at
http://www.webpage.com/wpt.

World Power Technologies is the manufacturer of the Whisper
line of wind generators.  These technologically advanced wind
generators are ideal for environmentally conscious people who
want to generate their own power, for people off the utility
grid, for farmers, for boat owners, etc.  The Web page contains
detailed information about the company's products and even
provides help in determining if wind energy is right for you.


NEW WEB SITE FOR WIND GENERATORS


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:13 EDT 1995
Article: 6954 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: Forestry Biomass
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 06:33:24 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: Forestry Biomass


From mikepoley@aol.com Sun May 28 16:35:14 EDT 1995
Article: 6955 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!ukma!jobone!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mikepoley@aol.com (MikePoley)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.paranet.science,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Burn's critique on PM_Square! free energy !
Date: 26 May 1995 18:02:15 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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 the moon should be approaching us.  
>(Duck!)
>>
>>I am ignoring angular momentum conservation, but it's probably OK since
a 
>>loss or gain thereof can be made up by the spin of either the earth or 
>>the moon...
>>
>
>It's not OK to ignore conservation of angular momentum: because the moon
is
>tidally locked to the earth, and the earth is losing angular momentum due
to
>frictional dissipation (tides), the earth-moon system must make-up for
the loss
>by -increasing- the separation of the two bodies. And i don't think you
can
>dismiss the rotational energy of the system either.

Just putting a high school physics teacher's two cents worth in,
angular momentum is one of the things which must _always_ be conserved
in any mechanical process.  The skater spins faster as she pulls in her
arms,
the diver begins to furiously rotate as he goes into his tuck.  Tidal
forces _are_
slowing down the revolution of the moon about the earth (Know who proposed
this?  Immanuel Kant!).  Let's define angular momentum as

     angular momentum = mass * speed * distance from center of rotation

If angular momentum remains constant, and speed is decreasing, then the
distance from the center of rotation must increase.  The moon is
spiralling
slowly away.  (Don't worry; won't be significant until long after the sun
has
expended its nuclear fuel.)
Italo Calvino wrote a wonderful short story about this old, old
storyteller
telling how the moon used to be so close that once a year they would all
take these tall ladders and...

Mike Poley
MikePoley@aol.com


From egn@philosys.de Sun May 28 16:35:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6956 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!Munich.Germany.EU.net!philosys.de!not-for-mail
From: egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 07:46:29 +0200
Organization: Philosys Software GmbH, Unterschleissheim
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de>
References: <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk> <3pqdcc$1hf@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <3pqka7$d1q@canyon.sr.hp.com> <801263268snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: philos.philosys.de
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In article <801263268snz@mold.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Graham Thomas  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I think I started this off, but Stan is homing into the problem. It's all
>right to think of keeping up with a low penetration of EV's, individual
>filling stations could find the space for their own 500 kVA transformer
>to cope! - however it is true that the electricity distribution system
>is designed for an certain energy density (in terms of kW average demand
>per Customer). The diversity for electricity supplies is very high. You or I
>could be taking 10-15 kW whilst your neighbour could be 'out'. On average
>in the UK this comes down to 2-3kW per dwelling. 

I would assume that the electricity distribution system is designed
for the maximum use. Or what do you think happens when everybody
turns AC on in summer or resistance heating in winter? The network
has to deliver or you would get brown-outs or black-outs. A properly
designed network does even have additional reserves above the
absolut maximum seen so far. In germany a normal house connection
is 3 phase each with 240 V and a maximum of 16 A. This means I can
use as much as 12 kW power. I have a yearly use of about 3000 kWh. 
This converts to about 340 W. I am sure the distribution network
and the power stations can not cope with demand when everybody
is using their 12 kW. But I am sure there is enough capacity
available to charge EVs during low demand periods, especially at night.

>
>Electricity Co's have most of their cash tied up in the distribution 
>network, and a serious upgrade of this would cost billions. It would also,
>in my opinion be stupid. Indeed I'm sure you are aware that a lot of 
>electricity companies (mine included) are already looking at 'Demand
>Side Management', that is actualy encorageing Customers to reduce demand
>rather than investing in infrastructure upgrades and new Power Stations.
>

When the charging of EVs is handled intelligently by the utilities
you can have a lot of EVs before a upgrade of the distribution
network is necessary. Demand side management is the important thing here.
In germany it is already possible to use two tarifs. One for
normal demand periods and one for low demand periods. The low tarif
is normally half that of the normal tarif. The meter has two counters
and the switch between them is done by a clock or in newer versions
remote controlled by the utility. If you have a electric water boiler
or electric space heating with storage capability, they are turned
on automaticaly when the switch occurs and charged. This low tarif
charging is not done with the full power. Instead it is only enough
power used to charge it during the normal 8 hour low tarif period.
In this way the load is levelled.
Why couldn't the same scheme used for EV's? To level the load even
more the utilities can control all the charging stations individually.
You just enter the time you want the EV fully charged, and the
the utility schedules the charging. This all can be controlled by
sending messages on the phone network (or better ISDN) without
any additional infrastructure. The tarifs can be used to give
the people which use long charging periods, which are better for
scheduling, an incentive. People which want the EV charged in
a shorter period have to pay a premium.

>So there is a real issue here. If we are going to seriously into EV's
>then the idea of clean, distributed (embedded) generation - connected
>into the low or medium voltage networks has to be considered.
>If mached to local loads such generation systems would also reduce 
>energy losses in the distribution systems - by avoiding dragging 
>the amps through the wires from the bid power stations (about 7% is 'lost').
>
>So think of ways of generating clean energy at maximum efficiency as close
>as possible to where it is used - be it the Service Station or your
>household.
>

Here PV on roofs and small cogeneration units instead of regular
furnaces can be used. PV is still to expensive, but it is a
clean way to generate electricity.
Small cogeneration units may be the best way in the near future.
But they should be controlled by the utility to allow limited Supply Side
Management. This way cogeneration units in your neighbourhood can
be turned on when you have scheduled your EV for charging. The
cogeneration units should have heat storage for several kWh to
allow a better match of actual heat and electricity demand.

Cogeneration units are available in sizes from 3 kW. They have
a much better total efficiency because the waste heat is used.
The only problem is, that the utilities normally don't pay
a fair price for the electricity.

Emil Naepflein


From egn@philosys.de Sun May 28 16:35:15 EDT 1995
Article: 6957 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!Munich.Germany.EU.net!philosys.de!not-for-mail
From: egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 08:21:12 +0200
Organization: Philosys Software GmbH, Unterschleissheim
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <3q3s0o$eo9@philos.philosys.de>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <801264042snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: philos.philosys.de
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <801264042snz@mold.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Graham Thomas  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Me again. Emil has a point. We already have such a system in an area
>where our commercial guy's did a too good a job at selling 'storage 
>heaters' (for those who don't know - these store off-peak electricity
>as heat in high capacity thermal blocks for release at on-peak times).
>
>In this case the peak demand reversed and we had a problem at 1:00am
>in the morning as all these heaters switched on!
>
>What was done was to control the switch on by a message sent over the
>local radio transmitters. The customers still get their no of hours
>for charging the heaters, but the switch on time is varied to suit the
>system and the electricity price.

We have a similar system here in germany.

>
>I'ts not a big step to do this with EV's but would 7 hours (the typical
>'off-peak' time) be sufficient? And if the EV density became too great
>then this time slot would have to become totaly variable - and a daytime
>charge is no use to someone who needs the EV during the day!

Unless we know the current demand and maximum available capacity 
during such off-peak periods we can only speculate how many EV's
can be charged. And why shouldn't EV's beeing charged everytime
when they aren't in use. When you drive 100 km per day with an
average speed of 50 km/h it is only in use for 2 hours. The other
22 hours it is available to the utility for load leveling. The
utility can use a special tarif at a extra low price for providing
your EV's battery as load leveling device. When your vehicle has
a range of 300 km, but you drive only 100 km a day, you specify 
a minimum charge of 50 % (some reserve). The other 50 % of the
battery capacity is available to the utility for load leveling.
This way you are sure that the range of the vehicle is great enough
and you may have got a extra charge very cheap. So it is a 
big advantage for you to connect your EV to a charging station
whenever possible. This concept can be also used to store excess
electricity from intermittent power sources like PV and wind.
When they produce more than 20 % of the total electricity some
kind of storage is necessary. Why shouldn't this storage beeing
implemented in a distributed fashion with the EV's batteries.
You can even go a step further and feed electricity back
to the network when demand arises. It all depends on how much
capacity is available to the utilities and how intelligently
it is managed.

Emil Naepflein


From egn@philosys.de Sun May 28 16:35:16 EDT 1995
Article: 6958 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!Munich.Germany.EU.net!philosys.de!not-for-mail
From: egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 08:28:35 +0200
Organization: Philosys Software GmbH, Unterschleissheim
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>
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X-Status: 

In article <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>,
>Emil Naepflein <egn@philosys.de> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>But is no extra load, when charging is done at night or other
>>low load times. By using special rates for night load, the utilities 
>>can shift the load to times where their base load power plants are not 
>>fully used.
>
>If a significant number of EVs are being charged at night, night will
>no longer be a low-demand period.

Tell me what is a significant number? Unless we have the difference
between the current demand and the available capacity, we can only
speculate. May be someone can provide an example. It would be
very interesting to have these numbers. And with low load
times I mean not only time during night. The power demand also
varies during day time considerably.

BTW Dave, wouldn't the charging of EV's increase the power from
nuclear power plants even more? :-)

Emil Naepflein


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:17 EDT 1995
Article: 6959 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply
Message-ID: <634.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:47:56 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:18 EDT 1995
Article: 6960 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: PV Costs MORE?
Message-ID: <675.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:48:51 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: PV Costs MORE?


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:19 EDT 1995
Article: 6961 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!pipex!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternator rewinding info needed.....
Date: 26 May 1995 20:16:58 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
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X-Status: 

In article <26170.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
           AE%S
 "David L. Paxton" writes:

> This all seems kind of a strange way of doing things. The standard 12 volt
> alt. can produce well over 150 volts. Just change the regulator and diodes for
> 24 or 48 should work just as well as rewinding the whole thing. I personally
> have seen a 12 v alt. produceing 24 volts on a vehicle with no apparent
> problems for over 10 years.  The only thing that was changed was the
> regulator. An old "vibrator" regulator was used and adjusted to 24 volt use,
> no problem. We used a modified 12v alt to run drills and saws with no problem.
> A regulator was made to control the output at 120 volts (RMS) and the diods
> were bypassed while used for these voltages, thow a switch and put the
> regulator and diods back into the circuit and drive off down the road with the
> chargeing system working just fine.
> 
> Dave
> Re: Alternator rewinding info needed.....
> 

This reminds me of the things I used to do as a kid. Remember the portable
wind-up gramophones? If you took out the mechanical governor you could get
them to spin the turntable at a hell of a speed, realy lethal!..

Trouble is, this is the electrical equivalent of that. All I can say is
that it must be a bloody good alternator to withstand this treatment.
If you intend the alternator to last, rewind it!


Regards
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:20 EDT 1995
Article: 6962 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Lee Butler <lbutler@GATE.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Two dead sons
Message-ID: <16747.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 20:26:02 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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The Story

There is a story which must be told. It is a story about the death of a
nation and the end of hope. It is about a power structure gone insane,
drunk on it's own power. It is about the parents of the western world and
the leaders of America, not knowing what to do with their power, not being
able to communicate with their children.

It is about the denial of equal rights, the freedom of speech, to
administer your own medicine,  to teach your child what you like, to choose
your own life style, to worship in your own religion. It is about all the
things that are supposed to be guaranteed by our constitution, but which
are instead denied by the paranoia and power of a tyrannical government and
mindless bureaucracy.  It is about the American dream gone bad. It is about
the divisiveness and anger which permeates relationships and institutions,
the denial and the suffering which everyone of feels but is forbidden to
speak about. It is about the inability of our city fathers to build a
center in which our youth could come together to find community.Our
community has no center. Our society has no soul. There is no heart, only
power and money.

It is about the denial of our basic sexual instincts, our need for
coddling, kissing, touching and holding each other. It is about our
collective belief in a book which describes an angry, vengeful God, an
unforgiving God who punishes those who do touch and love each other to
suffer eternal fire and damnation.

It is about "Christians" who enrich themselves while half the world is
dying in poverty and starvation, who arm themselves against an enemy who is
not there in defiance of the teaching to turn the other cheek and who pay
to support a violent judgmental government, looking the other way as
millions of Jews were being cremated alive at Auschwitz. It is about that
same government destroying a half a million women and children in Hiroshima
and Nagasaki with no strategic military significance.  It is about this
same "Christian" government choosing to look the other way, when the
Chinese communists went into Tibet in 1959 and destroyed the Buddhist
temples and massacred Buddhist monks by the tens of thousands.

It is about John F. Kennedy, the first President in recent memory who
inspired young people and gave us more hope and courage than we had ever
had that we could actually change the world for the better,  being shot
down. We the children of the sixties woke up one morning and realized that
we no longer believed in this violent God anymore and that we could not
kill for the state to support nationalism.  We did not believe in the old
time religion or in the society which it has created. We believed in one
world and we could see the potential resources to provide every person in
the world with an education, medical attention, a roof over their head,
food to eat and places for their children to run and play. We choose to put
humanity before nationality and we were branded traitors because of this.
We spoke out against war, while war destroyed many more Vietnamese than it
destroyed Jews who died at the hands of the Nazi's. We sent thousands more
of our young people to their prison and a virtual death over political
issues, including the experimental use of drugs to expand awareness and
personal freedom. We began to study yoga. The union of body mind and
spirit. We were arrested for smoking pot or eating lsd and tried to convict
us and send us to prison, to destroy what was left of our lives. My entire
proffessinal knowledge of shelter and survival is now being ignored by
everyone one who is invested in the system as it now stands. I have been
labeled and libeled and accused of all manner of heinous acts, none of
which i have committed. I have stood for free love and sharing everything
since I was a small child. I believe in the teachings of Jesus, especially
the part about turning the other cheek and the part about treating your
neighbor by sharing everything enjoy with him or her. I believe that people
are now frozen with fear and inertia. They are paralyzed and mesmerized to
prevent them from actually waking up and seeing how destructive and evil
everything has become. What happened at Waco Texas is just the latest in
this war we are waging against ourselves. The reaction at Oklahoma City was
to be expected. My two boys are dead as a result of your unconsciousness.
Had any of you understood what I am saying, I would not be without a job,
teaching and inspiring children of all ages, the mission I came here to do
in 1988. I have not changed my message or my mission. I hope that the death
of my two boys will wake everyone up and that they will dedicate themselves
to the mission that the boys and I were on. I raised them virtually all by
myself and we were all on a mission to spark a community of love. To
precipitate a epidemic of caring. To teach the principles of sharing. To
instill in every child and adult the notion of genus and provide a
constructive outlet for them to express themselves, in fundamental way
which will benefit society.

We believe the combined damage from both wars, Vietnam and the war on drugs
is greater than any nation has ever been asked to pay.

Our extremely conservative, overly reactionary and overtly paranoid society
has virtually destroyed an entire generation of the best and the brightest
children this nation has ever produced. The drugs themselves have been only
a symptom of the problem and a means by which the "Vietnam generation"
could numb itself, in order to go on tolerating our suppressive,
intolerant, "1984" , Orwellian tyrannical state.

David and Aaron were very angry about the world we have created and the
fact that doors which were open to me as a child were closed to them in
this generation. They were just the latest causalities in this evil war
which denies us a means by which to express our true feelings, unless we
are willing to die.  It is a war that I believe will soon engulf everyone
on this earth unless we can find a way to allow our young people to express
themselves creatively and positively to save the earth and ourselves.

The only way we think we can counter this horrible cancer is to form small
groups in every neighborhood and to openly communicate and share our points
of view with others in the group. We must get to know each other as people.
This process will facilitate each person in the group "knowing" what
everyone in the group " knows". One member of one group can then visit with
another group and spread whatever information that seems relevant, very
quickly. This process, known in the Vedic scriptures as "circles within
circles" has been used for thousands of years by native peoples,  to
maintain harmony and peace on this earth. We believe it can and should be
used again.

I feel that this is what we have done with the poetry group. In spite of
our philosophical differences, we continue to come together every week or
so and we share our hearts and invite others to share theirs. It is a kind
of modern sweat lodge, where everyone prays to their own God with their own
jargon.

In addition to coming to this group, we believe that each person should
communicate directly with their leaders, mayor Graham and President
Clinton. If you do not, you are sentencing the republic to death. You are
destroying the world. Please help me. Although we never get a personal
response from our leaders, we continue to write to them frequently. We
shall continue to write and believe in a loving God and the American system
for as long as we live. We abhor violence and sincerely hope to experience
a peaceful world in our lifetime. We are happy to report that my immediate
world, consisting of Jill and my close family, along with several friends
all over the world have already made peace with each other. We are already
living in paradise. Now we have to convince everyone else to join us.

Lee Porter Butler
Alpha Lee Rainbow Light Cloud

Lee Porter Butler
620 Biscayne Drive
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
407-659-7656


Two dead sons


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:21 EDT 1995
Article: 6963 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Gerhard.Hacker" <S-HACKY@nf.fh-nuernberg.d400.de>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: none
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Lists Global
 Organization:   Georg-Simon-Ohm-Fachhochschule                   w   @   x<


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:22 EDT 1995
Article: 6964 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: --Kenetech Bird/Wind Research
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:40:14 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: --Kenetech Bird/Wind Research


From bd518@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun May 28 16:35:23 EDT 1995
Article: 6965 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: bd518@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jean Parent)
Subject: Re: Alternator rewinding info needed...(Mr.Wolf)
Message-ID: <D92KCw.I4J@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: bd518@freenet3.carleton.ca (Jean Parent)
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Peter Wolfs (P.Wolfs@CQU.EDU.AU) writes:
>>I want to rewind some alternators for a different voltage (12 to 48).
>>Somewhere I have seen info offered about how to do this, but don't
>>remember where...  Can anybody help?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>am
>>Alternator rewinding info needed.....
> 
> This is fairly easy. Assume 12V rewound as 48V
> 
> 1. Identify exactly how your alternator stator is wound, i.e. how many
> stator coils, how they are interconnected, turns per coil and wire cross
> section.
> 
> 2. Rewind with exactly 4 times the number of turns and 1/4 the wire cross
> sectional area ( that is half diameter ) to increase the stator voltage 4
> times.
> 

Hi

It's not supose to be the number of poles who done the difference in the
voltage ???

J.Parent



> 4. Replace rectifier diodes with 4 times voltage rating 1/4 current rating
> devices.
> 
> The rotor presents more choices, either
> 
> 1. Use a permanent magnet rotor which requires no changes
> 
> 2. Use 12 rotor with 12 V excitation
> 
> 3. Rewind the rotor to 48Vdc by increasing turns by four times, using 1/4
> cross sectional area wire. This will require a regulator redesign for 48V -
> how easy this is depends on your electronics capability.
> 
> Dr. Peter J. Wolfs                      [=---=]
> Electrical Engineering                    \o/
> Central Queensland University              X
> Rockhampton M.C. 4702                     / \
> Australia
> Tel +61 79 30 9599
> Fax +61 79 30 9382
> 
> 
> Re: Alternator rewinding info needed.....




From avelon@phys.uva.nl Sun May 28 16:35:24 EDT 1995
Article: 6966 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.nic.surfnet.nl!news.sara.nl!news
From: Ian Carr-de Avelon <avelon@phys.uva.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Date: 26 May 1995 08:31:55 GMT
Organization: Academic Computer Services Amsterdam (SARA)
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Message-ID: <3q43lr$jab@mira.sara.nl>
References: <3q20jj$843@itu1.sun.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-ia184.phys.uva.nl
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pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za (Pieter Claassen) wrote:
> I suggest that we sterilize a % of people at birth (I think a cold way of 
> looking at it is random sterilization because no one can kill Steven H). 
> We cannot depend on politicians to do this because it will not be the 
> popular thing to do.

I think that sterilization should be on a voluntary basis. I
suggest that you set us all an example, two house bricks and a
bucket of bleach should be cheap and environmentally friendly
|-0).

> Ask the dodo what he thinks of this!
> P
> 
Do you think that the dodo would have been saved by steriliz-
ation?

You are mixing up an unsuccessful species (ie. one which
failed to reproduce its numbers) with a very successful one,
which may reach its limits and face starvation. If we are
clever that limit will not be reached for a long time yet. If
large numbers of people knew from birth that they had been
selected to have no biological future, the only positive step
they could take would be to research cloning. Need I say that
there are a lot of negative steps?

Ian


From matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:25 EDT 1995
Article: 6967 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!ussun2n.glaxo.com!ggr.co.uk!uknet!zippy.dct.ac.uk!warwick!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!noc.netcom.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!spherica.demon.co.uk!matmoose
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,uk.environment,nz.soc.green
Subject: RFC: living under EHT power cables
Message-ID: <801596716snz@spherica.demon.co.uk>
From: Mat <matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk>
Date: 27 May 1995 19:00:38 +0100
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I urgently need a FAQ on the dangers of living directly underneath high
voltage power cables. My sister lives under some in E. London, and I
think her physical & mental health is being compromised as a result.

 She would like to see some thorough research results, before she
 believes that it's a problem! Any comments or pointers to files about
 this would be welcome: *please Email* as I don't always get
 newsgroups in full.
                        Many thanks.

  **********************************************************************
  * Plant more trees, turn cars into wind turbines, grow your own fuel.*
  ************** There is nothing that cannot be fixed! ****************
                * (Join the Global Repair Corps today) *
                 **************************************
            Mat Rhys-Roberts <matmoose@spherica.demon.co.uk>
                         Electronics Imagineer


From nicholas@brs-etsu.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:26 EDT 1995
Article: 6968 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!brs-etsu.demon.co.uk!nicholas
From: nic cole <nicholas@brs-etsu.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free UK Seminar Events - Energy Efficiency
Date: 24 May 1995 14:13:56 +0100
Organization: None
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Free seminars/workshops on industrial energy efficiency

Under the Best Practice programme of the Energy Efficiency Office, Department of the 
Environment, ETSU organises seminars and workshops for UK industry and commerce on 
how to reduce costs and improve environmental performance by saving energy. The events are 
free of charge to UK delegates (non-UK residents may attend but will be charged a delegate 
fee - details will be provided on request).

The following events are planned for the next three months:

Date	Location	Event title					put cross	PROMS
									if interested
24 May	Sheffield	Utilities & Services for Foundries		|	|	20.3/20
31 May	Preston		Management Techniques for Energy Efficiency	|	|	41.0/61
1 June	Glasgow		'Heavy Fuel Oil - Its Place in Your Strategy'	|	|	43.0/01
5 June	Solihull	Motors & Drives - OEM competitive Advantage	|	|	44.0/32
8 June	Pontyclun	Batch Heat Treatment at John R George Ltd	|	|	20.7/35
8 June	Wilmslow	Energy Efficiency and TQM			|	|	41.0/62
13 June	Newport		Controlling Energy Costs by M&T			|	|	41.4/40
14 June	Doncaster	Energy Management at GB Glass Lighting Ltd	|	|	20.4/15
14 June	Putney		Buildings CHP Reliability (Putney Hospital)	|	|	40.2/32
15 June	Warrington	New Developments in Coal Fired Boilers		|	|	43.0/30
21 June	Nottingham	New Developments in Coal Fired Boilers		|	|	43.0/29
27 June	Chester		Financing Energy Efficiency Investments		|	|	41.3/25
28 June	Glasgow		New Developments in Coal Fired Boilers		|	|	43.0/32
29 June	Newcastle	New Developments in Coal Fired Boilers		|	|	43.0/31
4 July	Manchester	Buildings CHP Reliability (UMIST)		|	|	40.2/31
11 July	Corby		Management Techniques for Energy Efficiency	|	|	41.0/63
15 July	Huddersfld	Dyestuffs: An Introduction to Energy Efficiency	|	|	31.0/07

If you would like more information or an invitation, without obligation, please put a cross 
against the events you're interested in and return this entire message to 
etsu.promotions@aeat.co.uk

Similar seminars and workshops on energy efficiency in industrial buildings are organised by 
BRECSU; for information please contact brecsuenq@bre.co.uk.

This announcement will be updated fortnightly.






From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6969 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <10401.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:44:56 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: Electric Cars


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Sun May 28 16:35:29 EDT 1995
Article: 6970 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN:
Message-ID: <10433.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:45:06 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN:


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:30 EDT 1995
Article: 6971 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Steve Brown <sb@PINN.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!agis!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <23924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 15:39:08 GMT
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On Fri, 26 May 1995, Robert Winfield wrote:

> > >I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
> > >are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.
> >
> > You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
> > energy it took to get up the hill, right?
> >
> to summerize thermodynamics
> 1) You can't win
> 2) You can't break even
> 3) You can't get out of the game.
>

Wrong. Regardless of the point that all you are doing is getting the
energy back it took to get uphill the point is you are still getting some
energy back. Just because you can not get all the energy back, or just
because you con not create more energy than you expend, is no reason to
give up and not utilize the force of gravity to create *some* return
on your expenditure. If you are going uphill anyway, and you know you've
got to go downhill, then using an alternator to charge your batteries on
the downhill run is better than not doing anything at all. Period.

To summarize:

1) You can make the game closer
2) You can get closer to breaking even
3) You can play the game smarter.


Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6972 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Steve Brown <sb@PINN.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <24418.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 15:50:12 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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On Thu, 25 May 1995, DaveHatunen wrote:

> In article <16038.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
> Steve Brown  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
> >I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
> >are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.
>
> You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
> energy it took to get up the hill, right?

So? Are you saying that just because you are not getting a 120% return it
is not worth it? Even if you only get a little energy the point is that
you are charging your batteries and getting some return. I never claimed
anything close to perpetual motion.

> >Take for example the electric bikes with alternators to allow
> >not only the charging of the batteries while the cyclist peddles
> >but also during downhill travel.
>
> Now I know you're joking. You've got to know that the energy to run the
> alternator comes from the energy the bicyclist used to climb the hill.
> Or, on level ground, that the bicyclist is supplying the energy for the
> alternator.
>

Obviously you are missing a point here. You assume the bicyclist is
thinking "Oh joy, I am going to the top of the hill so I can reap a lot
of free energy on the downhill run" in which case your point may be
correct. Now if one realizes that the cyclist is probably thinking more
to the effect of:

  o "I need to get to the store on the other side of the mountain"

  o "I am visting my cousin and her husband"

  o "Time to go to work"

You must realize that you are not going to the top of the hill for the
sole purpose of charging a battery. Yes, that would be mighty dense on
someone's part. The point of using an alternator is that you a GOING
THERE ANYWAY and to utilize the energy of gravity as a FREE BONUS.

Steve

Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From windy@pgh.nauticom.net Sun May 28 16:35:32 EDT 1995
Article: 6973 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!pgh!198
From: windy@pgh.nauticom.net (Michelle Hammel)
Subject: Looking for Synchronous inverter 500-800 watt
Sender: usenet@pgh.nauticom.net (Usenet)
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Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 01:00:35 GMT
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if you have any info please E-mail to windy@pgh.nauticom.net thx...


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:35:33 EDT 1995
Article: 6974 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <hatunenD9794o.G0w@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <24418.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 19:07:35 GMT
Lines: 58
Sender: hatunen@netcom9.netcom.com
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In article <24418.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Steve Brown  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>On Thu, 25 May 1995, DaveHatunen wrote:
>
>> In article <16038.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
>> Steve Brown  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> >I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
>> >are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.
>>
>> You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
>> energy it took to get up the hill, right?
>
>So? Are you saying that just because you are not getting a 120% return it
>is not worth it? Even if you only get a little energy the point is that
>you are charging your batteries and getting some return. I never claimed
>anything close to perpetual motion.

Hey, You're the one who called it a "free energy source". All I said
was it wasn't free.

>> >Take for example the electric bikes with alternators to allow
>> >not only the charging of the batteries while the cyclist peddles
>> >but also during downhill travel.
>>
>> Now I know you're joking. You've got to know that the energy to run the
>> alternator comes from the energy the bicyclist used to climb the hill.
>> Or, on level ground, that the bicyclist is supplying the energy for the
>> alternator.
>>
>Obviously you are missing a point here. You assume the bicyclist is
>thinking "Oh joy, I am going to the top of the hill so I can reap a lot
>of free energy on the downhill run" in which case your point may be
>correct. Now if one realizes that the cyclist is probably thinking more
>to the effect of:

That's not what I said at all: just look up there and see. All I said
is that it ain't "free".

>  o "I need to get to the store on the other side of the mountain"
>
>  o "I am visting my cousin and her husband"
>
>  o "Time to go to work"
>
>You must realize that you are not going to the top of the hill for the
>sole purpose of charging a battery. Yes, that would be mighty dense on
>someone's part. The point of using an alternator is that you a GOING
>THERE ANYWAY and to utilize the energy of gravity as a FREE BONUS.

Kind of like when part of your paycheck gets automatically deposited in
Savings Bonds so you don't miss it. Then when you cash them it's free money.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From robk@hal.COM Sun May 28 16:35:34 EDT 1995
Article: 6975 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgiblab!cygnus.com!news.zeitgeist.net!bdt.com!hal.COM!schweik.hal.COM!not-for-mail
From: robk@hal.COM (Robert Kleinschmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Date: 26 May 1995 18:59:26 -0700
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3q611u$jcf@schweik.hal.COM>
References: <D96IAq.H1M@freenet.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: schweik.hal.com
Status: O
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In article <D96IAq.H1M@freenet.carleton.ca>,
David R. Smith <af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:

>by the way, PV are currently being made very cheaply in
>places like mainland China and India.


Please tell us about this. Always interested in cheap solar.

Rob Kleinschmidt


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:35 EDT 1995
Article: 6976 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 20:16:55 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
Lines: 72
Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <801470430snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
References: <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk> <3q248g$n1f@brtph500.bnr.ca>
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In article <3q248g$n1f@brtph500.bnr.ca> dtracy@bnr.ca "Dick Schoenling" writes:

> In article <801005461snz@mold.demon.co.uk>, Peter Graham Thomas
>  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> writes:
> |> Some thoughts (now edited):-
> |> 
> |> It Electric vehicles start to make a serious impact on our transportation
> |> policy; then the fuel used will have to be made available at the home.
> 
>    Why? Is the gasoline pump you currently use available at your home?
> 
No, but then I can put all the diesel in my car I need for 1-2 weeks
average motoring in 5 min at a Station. So there is no direct comparison
here.
> |> 
> |> Now consider an electric vehicle with a 40-50 kW engine, and, say,
> |> it is used for 2 hours a day. If we assume an 80-90% charging efficiency
> |> the average houshold will have to provide 100-KWh into the car over the
> |> recharging period.
> |> 
> |> Given that electricity distribution systems have been designed around
> |> the 2-3 kw houshold demand there will not be enough hours in the day
> |> (given a 12 hour charging period, which is optimistic) to charge up
> |> the car.
> |> 
> |> The answer would seem to be to enable each house to have greater average
> |> demands. But if electric vehicles are to become the norm, then a wholescale
> |> reinforcement of the electricity distribution system is on the cards.
> |> 
> |> An answer could be 'local generation' from renewables - or from micro
> |> CHP around the stirling cycle.
> |> 
> |> Ideas please..
> |> 
> 
> Changing the structure/capacity of the existing distribution network
> would be prohibitively expensive as well as time consuming. It 
> would be much easier to upgrade specific sites, e.g., recharge-parking
> lots where you work, "battery stations" similar to today's gas stations
> where you would change out the battery pack, assuming it is light
> and manageable enough. Alternative power generation at home is also
> a possibility. Numerous methods would be neccesary to accomodate
> individual environments/requirements, etc. . All in all it will 
> require the general public to re-think their position on energy,
> both creation and use. All of which will take a long time.
> 

Ok. Where I work there are some 300 car parking spaces - allways full.
So, on say 5kW charge were looking at a demand of 300 x 5 x .3(diversity)
=450kW. And this has to be done at low voltages (30-50V)? Methinks that,
there are some serious problems in terms of cable size to distribute
the power, even if it stays as 3ph AC. Might have to go to small 'pit'
transformers for every 50kW or so & distribute at 13.8-kV. Guess it
is possible - but this it the point of this thread - to flush out
the practicalities of EV transport...


> Regards,
> 
> Dick Schoenling
> Internet: dtracy@bnr.ca
> Raleigh, North Carolina USA
> 


Regards

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:36 EDT 1995
Article: 6977 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hyrdo power with no moving parts
Date: 26 May 1995 20:16:57 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
Lines: 23
Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <801514721snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
References: <D8xtsG.B2M@cix.compulink.co.uk> <3q2mvc$7cg@buffnet2.buffnet.net>
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In article <3q2mvc$7cg@buffnet2.buffnet.net>
           coyote@buffnet.net "Bill Smythe" writes:
> 
> Just as you can run some electric motors in reverse as a generator
> (you still need to run a current through the field coils), you can produce
> electricity with moving salt water. This is called a magneto-hydrodynamic
> generator.


I'm sure Bill knows, but to avoid confusion, for electric motors 'reverse'
means reversing the 'direction' of the mechanical power to the motor shaft. 
In effect putting mechanical power into the system (a generator) rather than
taking it out (a motor). There need be no physical reversal of the direction
of rotation of the motor/generator shaft.

The eficiency of running a 'motor' as a 'generator' is another matter..
 
Regards.    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Thomas           |  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Welsh Wales           |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From freedman@essential.org Sun May 28 16:35:37 EDT 1995
Article: 6978 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.cais.com!freedman
From: freedman@essential.org (Matt Freedman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PUBLIC CITIZEN ENERGY LISTSERVER
Date: 24 May 1995 17:25:25 GMT
Organization: Essential Information, Washington, D.C.
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PUBLIC CITIZEN'S CRITICAL MASS ENERGY PROJECT
ENERGY POLICY LISTSERVER 

Public Citizen uses this list to distribute action alerts on
upcoming Congressional votes along with summaries of recent
legislative and executive branch actions on energy policy. We
also distribute statements, press releases, and summaries of
reports published by Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy
Project. Specific topics covered include nuclear power and waste,
fossil fuels, renewable energy, energy efficiency and transportation 
issues.  During 1995, we will be working on federal energy budget issues,
radioactive waste legislation, nuclear reactor safety, PURPA/PUHCA reform
efforts, motor vehicle fuel efficiency, and other topics as they
arise.

Members of advocacy groups and interested activists are
encouraged to join the list.  Messages average one per week,
though the frequency can be greater during peak legislative
times.  This list is not interactive -- no messages will be sent
to subscribers without the consent of Public Citizen.  In other
words, the list will not facilitate a discussion of these issues
among subscribers, although we welcome your feedback on the
messages we are sending.  

To join or to obtain more information, email to
listproc@essential.org and place the following in the message
text:

     SUBSCRIBE CMEP-LIST [your name, organizational affiliation
and home state]

Example:

     SUBSCRIBE CMEP-LIST Matthew Freedman, Public Citizen, DC

If you have specific questions about the list or problems
subscribing, contact us at cmep@essential.org.



From liveh2o@earthlink.net Sun May 28 16:35:38 EDT 1995
Article: 6979 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp.et.byu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!liveh2o.earthlink.net!user
From: liveh2o@earthlink.net (Jean Paul Tantet)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Viktor Schauberger
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 00:04:14 -0700
Organization: BioSolutions, Inc.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <liveh2o-2705950004140001@liveh2o.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.36.173
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I am looking for any information on V. Schauberger and his theories of
Biosynthesis, Implosion and vortex research with water.  Is anybody
actively working with his ideas to produce power sources?  I'd love to
know!

E-mail at:liveh2o@earthlink.net

-- 
JPT


From Peter@mold.demon.co.uk Sun May 28 16:35:39 EDT 1995
Article: 6980 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!mold.demon.co.uk!Peter
From: Peter Graham Thomas <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 27 May 1995 08:43:37 +0100
Organization: Owl Riviter's Inc
Lines: 37
Sender: news@news.demon.co.uk
Message-ID: <801559989snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
References: <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de> <NEWTNews.16619.801554729.tonyc@tonyc.144volts.com>
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In article <NEWTNews.16619.801554729.tonyc@tonyc.144volts.com>
           tonyc@sna.com  writes:
> 
> YES.  So.California Edison says they can support 200,000 electric
> cars before they would have a need to upgrade any of their plant.
> 
> I would think that any large metropolitan community would have
> the same type of infrastucture issues and their ability to handle
> a large number of EVs charging before running into upgrade concerns.
> 
> And really now, how long do you think it take to get 200,000 EVs in 
> 
> So.California, let alone the rest of the country ?  The ZEV mandate
> expects something like 20,000 EVs being sold in all of California
> in the first few years.
> 
> Tony Cygan
> 

Tony. I guess California Edison are a vertically integrated Co. In that
they Generate Distribute & Sell electricity. I would guess it's the
Generation arm who are behind this statement. I would be interested
to see if my guess is right. Who in CE made the statement, and how
could this Group find out the reasoning behind it? If it's right then
either CE have been very far sighted, or you are paying over the odds
for a Rolls Royce distribution system.

A second question. How many vehicles in total operate in California
Edison's supply area? Bet its more than 200,000.

Regards  
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete (doubting) Thomas|  "First you forget their names, and then their faces
Yr Wyddgrug           |   Next you forget to pull your zipper up
Wales UK              |   Then you forget to pull your zipper down"....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From liveh2o@earthlink.net Sun May 28 16:35:40 EDT 1995
Article: 6981 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!liveh2o.earthlink.net!user
From: liveh2o@earthlink.net (Jean Paul Tantet)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.energy.renewable,alt.astrology,alt.atheism,alt.autos.antique,alt.guitar.bass,alt.coffee,alt.college.fraternities,alt.beer,alt.gambling,alt.humor.puns,alt.overlords,alt.mud,alt.fan.kroq,alt.fan.letterman
Subject: $$$ MAKE MONEY FAST $$$
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 00:49:33 -0700
Organization: BioSolutions, Inc.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.36.173
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Path:
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From: peace <76133.1421@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.research,alt.anonymous
Subject: $$$ MAKE MONEY FAST $$$
Date: 23 May 1995 20:57:48 GMT
Organization: via CompuServe Information Service
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <3pti8c$8v2$1@mhafc.production.compuserve.com>

PLEASE READ THOROUGHLY  BEFORE YOU START FLAMING ME. 
 
I THOUGHT THESE THINGS WERE SCAMS ALSO BUT IN THE LAST WEEK I RECEIVED
$50,000 IN THE MAIL FROM PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.  I DON'T KNOW ABOUT
PYRAMID SCHEMES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT BUT I DO KNOW I MADE $50,000 AND ALL
I GAVE WAS 5 MEASLY BUCKS.  I WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO JOIN IN MY GOOD
FORTUNE!!!  THIS PROGRAM IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!!!  FOR A MERE $5.00
INVESTMENT -- HARDLY A RISKY SUM --YOU CAN MAKE EASY MONEY, LEGITIMATELY!!
-A satisfied customer 
 
            INSTRUCTIONS 
 
If you currently lose the lottery on a weekly basis, or are waiting for
Dick and Ed to show up at your front door, wait no more.  Follow these
instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you will have received over
$50,000.00  dollars in CASH. 
 
[1]     Immediately mail $1.00 to the first 5 names listed below.
startingat number 1 through number 5.  SEND CASH ONLY.  (Total investment: 
$5.00 + postage)  >ENCLOSE A LETTER WITH A NOTE SAYING: "Please add my name
to your mailing list".   Include your name and mailing address.  This is a
legitimate service that you are requesting and you are paying $1.00 for 
this service. 
 
[2]     Remove the name that appears as number 1 on the list.  Move the
other 9 names up one position (Number 2 becomes number 1, number 3 becomes
number  2, and so on).  Place your name, address, and zip code in the
number 10 position. 
 
 
[3]     With your name in the number 10 position, upload this ENTIRE file
to 15 (Fifteen) different bulletin boards.  You may post it to the BBS's
message base or to the file section.  Name it FASTCASH.TXT, and use the
file description comments to draw attention to this file and its great
potential for all of us. 
 
[4]     Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in CASH.  Keep a
copy of this file for yourself so that you can use it again and again
whenever you need money.   As soon as you mail out these letters you are
automatically in the mail order business.  People will be sending YOU $1.00
to be placed on your mailing list.  This list can then be rented to a
broker that can be found in your local yellow pages listings for additional
income on a  regular basis. 
 
            The list will become more valuable as it grows in size.  This
is a service. 
 
** IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL ** 
 
If you have any doubts as to the legality of this service, please refer to
Title 18,h sections 1302 and 1341 of the Postal Lottery Laws. NOTE:  Make
sure that you retain EVERY name and address sent to you, either on computer
or hard copy, but do not discard the names and notes that people send to
you.  This is PROOF that you are truly providing a service, and should the
I.R.S. or some other govenment agency question you, you can provide them
with this proof! 
 
            Remember, as each post is downloaded and the instructions
carefully followed, five members will be reimbursed for their participation
as List Developer with $1.00 each.  Your name will move up the list
geometrically so that when your name reaches the number 5 postion you will
be receiving thousands of dollars in cash. REMEMBER   -   THIS PROGRAM
FAILS ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST -PLEASE ! ! PLEASE BE HONORABLE. . .IT
DOES WORK!    THANK YOU. 
 
   
   1)Marc Luo 50 Laverne Ave., Long Beach, CA 90803
   2) Jason Song 50 Laverne Ave., Long Beach, CA 90803
   3) Hardeep Malik, 6475 Marguerite St., Vancouver, BC V6M 3L5Canada
   4) Chris Kraemer, 450, Beacon St. Boston, MA 02115
   5) Mark Smith 410 23rd Ave #3, San Francisco, CA 94121
   6) Stell Foster 1434 Bald Eagle, Glencoe, MO 63038
   7) Syd Millet, R.R.#2 Lowbanks, ON Canada, N0A 1K0
   8) Nicholas Ng PO Box 500, Glen Waverly, Victoria, Australia, 3150
   9) Burhan Hamid 33 Willis Ave, Syosset, NY 11791
  10) J. Paul Tantet, 2035 Fourth St. #105C, Santa Monica, CA 90405

The following letter was written by a participating member in this program:

**************************************************************************
To those with the COMMON sense to participate in this easy money
opportunity: 
 
          About six months ago I received the enclosed post in letter form.
I ignored it.  I received about five more of the same letter within the
next two weeks.  I ignored them also.  Of course, I was tempted to follow
through and dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was just
another gimmick and could not possibly work. 
 
     I was wrong!  About three weeks later I saw this same letter posted on
a local bulletin board in Montreal.  I liked the idea of giving it a try
with my computer.  I didn't expect much  because I figured, if other people
were as skeptical as I, they would not be too quick to part with $5.00. 
But, I BUY LOTTERY TICKESTS WEEKLY IN MY PROVINCE AND HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW
FOR IT BUT TICKET STUBS!  This week I decided to look at this as my weekly
lottery purchase.  I addressed the envelopes and mailed out $1.00 in each
as directed.  Two weeks went by and I didn't receive anything in the mail. 
The fourth week rolled around and I couldn't believe what happened!  I can
not say that I received $50,000.00, but it was definitely well over
$35,000.00! 
For the first time in 10 years I got out of debt.  It was great.  Of
course, it did not take me long to go through my earnings, so I am using
this excellent money making opportunity once again. 
 
FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS AND GET READY TO ENJOY! Please send a copy of this
letter along with the enclosed letter so together we can convince people
who are skeptical that this really does work! 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

-- 
JPT


From mikep@auriga.unm.edu Sun May 28 16:35:41 EDT 1995
Article: 6982 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!simtel!news1.oakland.edu!jobone!lynx.unm.edu!auriga!mikep
From: mikep@auriga.unm.edu (Mike Prine CIRT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Battery power
Date: 27 May 1995 15:17:05 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <3q7fph$sqh@lynx.unm.edu>
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DICK MCDUFFIE (dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com) wrote:
: I'm looking for some real life experiance from people who live off battery
: power, PV or generator charged. I'm using only 4 6V batterys (T-105 type)
: in 12V config. and 116 watts of PV. (I'm still on the grid, just checking
: feasibility for next (remote) home). How often do you use the hydrometer,
: or are digital meter readings enough to determine when to start/stop gener-
: ator charging? How fast do you charge the batteries, your charge rate(back-
: up not PV) per 100AH of battery bank? I know the big Trace inverter has a
: charge option but 100A sounds like alot for my 435AH bank.I'm in the market
: for an inverter, does anyone use anything but Trace? I only need an 812, I
: have an old Heathkit 200 watt inverter that is fine except it draws 1.75 A
: with no load!It runs a 25" color TV and a couple of compact flouresents OK.
:                        Thanks,
:                           Dick

	Well while I can give you many of the answers you are looking for 
I would recommend a subscription to Home Power Magazine, PO Box 520, 
Ashland Oregon 97520, 1-916-475-3179, you can get some back issuses and 
they have a CD that has issues 1-35 plus other neat stuff. Ok enough 
sales pitch.
	I have been into PV for just over 3 years now on a serious basis.
Our house gets about 1/2 of it's electrical needs satified from PV with
the Grid serving as a backup generator. Deep cycle lead-acid batteries
should be charged/discharged at a C/5 or lower rate. If I recall correctly
the T-105s are about 125AH per battery, since you have to tie 2 in series
to get 12 volts this leaves you with a 250Amp Hour bank at 12 Volts. So
for a 250AH bank that is 50Amps in or out. C/20 would be better at
12.5Amps but probably not practical for you. Most of the Trace inverters
have an adjustment to set the max charge current. My 2012 runs from 0 to
60 amps and I feed 55+ Amps to my 1760AmpHour battery bank. Many folks
recommend skipping the builtin charger option and buying a seperate
battery charge for reasons of increased reliability but I haven't had any
problems yet.
	Now while I am quite happy with my trace inverter, If you don't 
have any large motors you need to run you might want to consider one of 
the smaller types like PowerStar, StatPower or others. They are smaller 
and have lower noload current drain. I have a 100watt TripLight inverter 
that falls in the same catagory as you HeathKit, it is a squarewave 
inverter, great for lights and small electronics but death to motors and 
they have a very high standby load.
	Battery maintiance. This is where the black magic starts. While
general rules exist, every system is unique and you have to watch it
closely to find out how it really behaves. It is especially true durring
the 1st year that you need to be conservative so you don't end up with
dead batteries while you are learning. In my case I try to run and
equalize charge once a month and check the water and do a hydrometer check
once every 3 months and log it in my book so I can spot trends if any. 
Once a week I switch the house back to grid power and let the batteries
come up to equalize voltage but I don't let them stay there long, I just
use it as an indicator that they are fully charged. You can get all sorts 
of meters exist to monitor your system but most folks use a simple 
voltage meter.
	Good luck.
	
 --
I get most of my electricity, at home, from the sun. | Bitnet:   mikep@unmb 
It's a hobby, who cares if it's cost effective!      | Internet: mikep@unm.edu
University of New Mexico in Albuquerque New Mexico, USA
2701 Campus Blvd NE 87131-6046 USA     Phone: 505-277-8135 | Michael L Prine


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:43 EDT 1995
Article: 6983 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Will Stewart <will1000@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <6019.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 12:01:39 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 102
Status: O
X-Status: 

You wrote:
>
>In article <27655.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
>Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>>There are already hundreds of garages in typical American large cities.
>>All that's needed is the addition of charging units.  These could be
>>overhead in unused space.  You make this seem insurmountable, for some
>>reason...
>
>Your "all that's needed" contains the requirement for whole new
>industries.

Battery chargers a whole new industry?  Do you still have stock
in buggy whip manufacturers?  :)

>>>In other words, the use of EVs requires a major remake of our
>>>infrastructure.
>>
>>You've really taken a large step here.  Perhaps you can detail what
>>infrastructure remakes are really necessary, not just some worst possible
>>engineering solution.
>
>You just haven't really thought it through. Forget for now that a major
>industry comparable to the oil industry would have to built from
>scratch just to manufacture (and dispose of)  the batteries.

Scratch? You mean no one builds batteries today?  What about the market in home
computers, we had to build that from scratch, didn't we?  I don't see the
reasoning behind your hesitation or concern.

>For instance, you said earlier that eight cars could feed off one
>charger. But that's not true. Each battery would have to have its own
>controller; what you mean is that eight chargers could be put in one
>box. But then you have to reach the car. Extension cords?

Yes, a mature technology.  If the charger is overhead, then the extenstion cords

could be pulled from a spring-loaded wind up reel and plugged in directly.

>>> And this requires a major capitalization. Who is going
>>>to provide this capitalization? Are you suggesting the state/government
>>>should do this?
>>
>>The marketplace is already paying for capital expenditures for gasoline
>>powered equipment that breaks down and has to be replaced.  The gradual
>>replacement of that equipment with EV equipment does not entail a sharp
>>capital rampup.
>
>Oh, yes it does. Even the required charging equipment does not yet
>exist. This, in itself, would be a major engineering challenge
>requiring a considerable capital expenditure, not to mention a lot of
>R&D to develop a workable system.

I have a battery charger in my basement.  I have a degree in electromechanical
engineering and KNOW that the technology to charge batteries is simple and low
tech.  No challenge, gradual capitalization.  If you have further disagreement
with this, then provide supporting engineering and economic analysis, with
reasonable assumptions.

>Calling for the "gradual replacement of [gasoline powered] is facile
>and simplistic. Who, specifically, is going to do the replacing? How?

Who replaced the horse drawn carriages?  Who replaces broken down buildings?
Who replaces old cars?  Who provides that parking lots for parking cars?  Who
provides replacement gasoline for automobiles?

>You sound like the kind of person who thinks getting rid of shit is
>easy: you just flush the toilet.

This is becoming a personal attack; unless you have something intelligent to
share, I am ending all discourse with you.

>And you know absolutely nothing about the actual engineering,
>manufacturing and construction requirements such a changeover will
>require.

No, I'm just not afraid of the change.

>Just start working backward from such a commercial garage
>recharger. There's the wiring, the new transformers, enlarged or new
>substations. In fact, if you work out the amount of electrical
>gereating capacity to replace the gasoline cars in the Los Angeles
>Basin, you are looking at a requirement for several new generating
>stations.

The demand would not occur overnight.  If it did, then there would be a problem.

 Right now, the law calls for a 2% market in EVs.  Consider that in your
pondereings.

>Eventually something like EVs will probably be required. No matter how
>optimistic we are, eventually teh oil will run out, or at least become
>scarce enough to make it too expensive to use for personal
>transportation. But any changeover form oil will require a rahter
>extensive change in style of life .

It all depends upon the viewpoint of the individual.  I don't see extensive
lifestyle changes, especially with innovations in technology.

Will Stewart
Re: Electric Cars


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:44 EDT 1995
Article: 6984 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Anton Simmons <A.D.Simmons@LUT.AC.UK>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply
Message-ID: <12181.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 07:31:19 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 2
Status: O
X-Status: 

Lee Butler, go away !!!!!
AE Digest - 23 May 1995 to 24 May 1995 -Reply


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:45 EDT 1995
Article: 6985 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Jordan Wilkerson <chille@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Thanks
Message-ID: <13434.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 15:50:03 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 25
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X-Status: 

I need to unsubscribe from the AE List for the next month, due to the
Upcoming Hybrid Electric Vehicle Challenge and the Solar Car "SunRayce"
which are back-to-back in June.  I will not be able to catch up if I save
a month's worth of mail.

Thank you for the on-going discussions, specifically, OTEC and Electric Cars.

The discussions on this group on electric vehicles is more technical with
less governmental suppression fears then the Electric Vehicle List.

Again, thanks to sysop for maintaining this list server, and to the rest
of you for continuing discussions.


Jordan Wilkerson

University of Maryland
Hybrid Electric Vehicle Research
Project Manager
chille@eng.umd.edu

"Ignorance Breeds Fear"


Thanks


From gene595@ix.netcom.com Sun May 28 16:35:46 EDT 1995
Article: 6986 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news1.oakland.edu!vtc.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: gene595@ix.netcom.com (E P Searl)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Battery power
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 22:35:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3q89l4$h8t@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <8AA04B5.00010027C1.uuout@hollis.maine.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-dfw11-18.ix.netcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.55
Status: O
X-Status: 

dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com (DICK MCDUFFIE) wrote:

>I'm looking for some real life experiance from people who live off battery
>power, PV or generator charged. I'm using only 4 6V batterys (T-105 type)
>in 12V config. and 116 watts of PV. (I'm still on the grid, just checking
>feasibility for next (remote) home). How often do you use the hydrometer,
>or are digital meter readings enough to determine when to start/stop gener-
>ator charging? How fast do you charge the batteries, your charge rate(back-
>up not PV) per 100AH of battery bank? I know the big Trace inverter has a
>charge option but 100A sounds like alot for my 435AH bank.I'm in the market
>for an inverter, does anyone use anything but Trace? I only need an 812, I
>have an old Heathkit 200 watt inverter that is fine except it draws 1.75 A
>with no load!It runs a 25" color TV and a couple of compact flouresents OK.
>                       Thanks,
>                          Dick
>For Marge:
>dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com

you might look into prowatt inverters by STATPOWER of Canada. They are
low cost and have worked fine for me. 



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6987 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ross Binnie <ross.binnie@primetime.org>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: pv or wind?  was: sma
Message-ID: <1489.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:08:23 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 53
Status: O
X-Status: 

 -=> Quoting Alternative Energy Discu to Ross Binnie <=-


Kevin Eber sugested the use of PV to supply energy for my RV.


 AED> Don't know what your location is like, but for that application
 AED> it might be wiser to consider either photovoltaics (i.e. solar cells)
 AED> or wind power.  If you're in a cramped park, photovoltaics are
 AED> probably the way to go (as in: on your roof).


PV units are marketed for RV's at this time. There are however some
serious problems relating to the use of such devices on a 'gypsie' RV such
as mine. The type of PV on the market is suitable for 'trickle charge' of
the rv battery, ie it would provide enough energy to keep the electronics
going on my lpg powered refrigerator. There are well defined limits as to
roof loading and gross vehicle weight. I run at minimum weight to conserve
fuel. Larger PV arrays add weight and I don't think  are  well suited to
constant pounding of the interstate. You have to take my word about
interstate pounding inside an RV. What is only a constant thump thump in a
car or pickup, is to a highway tractor and fifth wheel somewhat more
severe. Our experience has been that some roads literaly pound the heck out
of a rig (I could write a book about that aspect of RV travel).
Although I have one good deep cycle 12v battery to provide energy
for lighting, water pump and refrigerator control system, the battery is
depleted in 3 days. This is not a problem in commercial RV parks as 120v
is readily available for charging the battery and providing lighting
current. Power is not available in many state and federal parks and I
rely on the battery. Energy consumption for lighting takes the largest
toll. I can fire up the powerplant in my truck (Cummins turbo
diesel) in the day time to recharge the battery but I can't stand the
racket and my neighbours shouldn't be subjected to it either.
It is for these reasons that I am looking for a silent means of recharging
the battery. I can just hear someone saying, why not use 2 batteries. I
have done this in a number of RVs over a long span of years. Short
battery life in the tractor and in the RV is a consequence. The whyfor can
be a subject of debate. Maybe I can find a practical method of paralell
charging multiple batteries in this type of unit and _still obtain long
battery life_.

Ross Binnie


r.binnie@primetime.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: ross.binnie@primetime.org (Ross Binnie)
This message lovingly processed in beautiful Muskoka, Ontario, Canada by:
PrimeTime BBS - (705)689-1757
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: pv or wind?  was: sma


From hughl@news.an.hp.com Sun May 28 16:35:48 EDT 1995
Article: 6988 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!news.an.hp.com!news!hughl
From: hughl@news.an.hp.com (Hugh Lippincott)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Water Engine.
Date: 25 May 1995 16:30:27 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3q2bb3$pid@hpaneqb4.an.hp.com>
References: <P.Waring.77.000AD511@irl.cri.nz> <1995May24.232530.25202@clark.dgim.doc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpanlgv.an.hp.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1995May24.232530.25202@clark.dgim.doc.ca>, gsteckly@dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) writes:
|> Peter Waring (P.Waring@irl.cri.nz) wrote:
|> : In article <6557.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> "Frank S. Wadge" <GARPSTER@aol.com> writes:
|> 
|> : >Have I missed something? I was recently informed that one of the major auto
|> : >manufacturers is about to start work on an engine using water as fuel. I
|> : >suggested my informant meant a fuel cell breaking down water into hydrogen
|> : >and oxygen, but apparently that's not it.
|> 
|> : The fuel isn't straight water, it's a mix of diesel fuel and water, for which 
|> : gains in mileage and improved emissions are claimed. Caterpillar have, I 
|> : believe, entered into a development deal with the inventor
|> : P Waring
|> 
|> The June issue of Discover magazine (I bought it for the 6th annual 
|> technology awards) has a brief item on this if anyone is interested.  The 
|> inventor is Rudolph Gunnerman and the process is called A-55 (for 
|> "aqueous 55 percent) since the water to fuel ratio is 55% water to 45% 
|> naptha.  They claim it has the saim "oomph" (I love their techno-jargon) as 
|> gasoline at half the cost. Then in the next breath they say "even though 
|> it is more than half water, it generally delivers two-thirds of the miles 
|> per gallon of conventional gasoline.   The only catch is that to 
|> modify existin IC engines to burn the fuel each piston has to be plated 
|> with pure nickel, which they say acts as a catalyst for combustion.  
|> Another advantage is  that it burns cooler and produces less smog-causing 
|> nitrous oxide than gasoline.
|> 
|> Anybody elese heard anything more about this process?
|> 
|> Regards
|> 
|> Gary
Sounds like an internal combustion steam engine.   The naptha burn is kept
cooler and at lower pressure by the vaporization of the water absorbing the 
energy [that keeps the NOx down].  Then the steam expansion drives the piston.
How you keep the naptha burning, and burning completely, I don't know.

As this rate you could powder coal and add it to the mixture, which could
reform it and burn it all in one shot.  I think that the energy storage 
density of the coal would be a lot higher than naptha.
-- 
	Hugh Lippincott 	     hughl@an.hp.com
	



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:49 EDT 1995
Article: 6989 of alt.energy.renewable
From: DaveHatunen <hatunen@NETCOM.COM>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Landfill Gas
Message-ID: <2930.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:44:21 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
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In article <5467.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> you write:
>I am interested in finding out all about landfill gas and associated
>topics.  Does anyone on this list know any good sources for finding
>this information? (including landfill gas management, safety,
>chemistry, generation using landfill gas as a fuel, flare systems,
>government regulation, etc.)
>
>Any help would be appreciated.  Please respond to me directly.

The City of Palo Alto California operates a landfill gas system in its
Baylands Park. You might want to contact them.

--


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************

Re: Landfill Gas                                                             R


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun May 28 16:35:50 EDT 1995
Article: 6990 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 17:34:50 GMT
Lines: 22
Sender: hatunen@netcom8.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>,
Emil Naepflein <egn@philosys.de> wrote:

[...]

>But is no extra load, when charging is done at night or other
>low load times. By using special rates for night load, the utilities 
>can shift the load to times where their base load power plants are not 
>fully used.

If a significant number of EVs are being charged at night, night will
no longer be a low-demand period.

[...]



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From jstanley@gate.net Sun May 28 16:35:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6991 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!not-for-mail
From: jstanley@gate.net (John A. Stanley)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Viktor Schauberger
Date: 27 May 1995 13:26:49 -0400
Organization: Provided by Petra
Lines: 13
Sender: jstanley@news.gate.net
Message-ID: <gpzxvcGUbBML083yn@gate.net>
References: <liveh2o-2705950004140001@liveh2o.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <liveh2o-2705950004140001@liveh2o.earthlink.net>,
liveh2o@earthlink.net (Jean Paul Tantet) wrote:
> I am looking for any information on V. Schauberger and his theories of
> Biosynthesis, Implosion and vortex research with water.  Is anybody
> actively working with his ideas to produce power sources?  I'd love to
> know!

Do you _really_ think we're going to help you out after you just
posted that idiotic, ILLEGAL, pyramid scheme? Go away, twit.

--
John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:51 EDT 1995
Article: 6992 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "Marvin G. Beshirs" <mbeshirs@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Post office positngs
Message-ID: <18245.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 18:09:02 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

(A)  His mailbox is full.  The mail gets bounced back to the list.  He is on
the list so he gets it again.  (B)  see A

--May God be with you and yours.         Don't criticize me too loudly until
  Marvin Beshirs  (:>                    you have walked a mile in my shoes!
  e-mail at mbeshirs@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us             !Please!
  Residing in the Show-me state of Missouri    Near Branson, not in.
                                               Closest to Chadwick!

On Fri, 26 May 1995, Brendan A Niemira wrote:

> What is it with all of these double posts from the Post Office?
>
> Brendan A. Niemira
> niemirab@student.msu.edu
> Post office positngs
>
Re: Post office positngs                                                     R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:52 EDT 1995
Article: 6993 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Christer Nordin <christer.nordin@fakta.tv4.se>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Subscription
Message-ID: <16496.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 09:36:31 GMT
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Many thanks

Christer Nordin


Subscription


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:53 EDT 1995
Article: 6994 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Price Trevor <T.J.Price@cranfield.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Subscription
Message-ID: <16529.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 09:40:51 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Lines: 2
Status: O
X-Status: 

just a test
RE: Subscription


From tcupp@accessnv.com Sun May 28 16:35:54 EDT 1995
Article: 6995 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!bighorn.accessnv.com!usenet
From: tcupp@accessnv.com (Terry Cupp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: New Battery
Date: Thu, 25 May 95 02:03:38 GMT
Organization: accessnv.com
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Message-ID: <3q0ohq$avg_001@bighorn.accessnv.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bighorn
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
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X-Status: 

I recently read an article about a new "zinc-air" battery that is going to be 
used in Germany to power Postal vans.  The article claims the battery can get 
about 400 miles on a charge.  If anyone has any info on this process please 
let me know.


Thanks 
Terry Cupp
tcupp@accessnv.com


From pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za Sun May 28 16:35:55 EDT 1995
Article: 6996 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!agis!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!quagga.ru.ac.za!ucthpx!itu1.sun.ac.za!news
From: pmclaasn@ing.sun.ac.za (Pieter Claassen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Thin film solar plant in SA
Date: 25 May 1995 13:11:00 GMT
Organization: Chemical Engineering
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3q1vl4$843@itu1.sun.ac.za>
References: <3q1vig$843@itu1.sun.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.232.204.18
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>
>I find it fascinating that Siemens is still making and selling 15% Mono 
>Si.
>
>New technology is now producing 15% multi junction dirty Si (poly) at a 
>much lower cost.
>
>Is it possible that Siemens (and other manufacturers) have spent a lot 
of 
>money on old technology and is not prepared to embrace cheaper solutions 
>until they paid for their plant?
>
>We also get the idea that they are dumping their old products on South 
>Africa (like mono Si cells)
>
>We are evaluating the possibility to design and build a new plant (thin 
>film dirty Si) in S.A. (if the market is big enough), with new 
technology 
>like AI etc. to keep cost low.
>
>I would really appreciate info or references on Vapour Phase Deposition 
>and Liquid Phase Epitaxially Growth technology.
>
>If you have any interest in the above mentioned program, please contact 
>me.
>
>Pieter
>



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:56 EDT 1995
Article: 6997 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Steve Marschman <sc_marschman@PNL.GOV>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!agis!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hyrdo power with no moving parts
Message-ID: <26114.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 13:55:39 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <14910.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>, hughesj@songs.sce.com
says...

>     Why study an engineering reference book? It's easier and
>     more fun to add MHD to the list of free energy machines that
>     are being kept off the market by greedy corporations.
>

Didn't MHD receive a lot of attention in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's?  Didn't

some of the large scale development activities suffer from component-materials
problems?  This was before my time and I'd like to "hear" some discussion from
those knowledgeable.

Thanks
Steve Marschman
sc_marschman@pnl.gov
stevem@oneworld.owt.com

Re: Re[2]: Hyrdo power with no moving parts


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Sun May 28 16:35:57 EDT 1995
Article: 6998 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "HUGHES, JOHN E" <hughesj@songs.sce.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Message-ID: <28102.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 14:46:41 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 8
Status: O
X-Status: 

     Previous post:
>Ask the dodo what he thinks of
>this! P

What do you think of this?
JEH

Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:09:47 EDT 1995
Article: 6999 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <6650.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 18:01:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 35
Status: O
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>Marge Wood asks:
> > why couldn't the wind rushing past the vehicle
> > be funneled into something with a blade hooked to a battery?

Tom Gray Responds:
>Although it is not intuitively obvious, Marge, this is a perpetual
>motion thing.  You can't capture enough energy to make up for the
>additional drag on the vehicle that whatever structure you design to
>extract the energy creates.

Nice response Tom.  If it of interest, I had many opportunities to
respond to many such inquiries as a researcher at a large un-named gas
and electric utility in Northern California.  Among my favorites were
the folks that wanted to use the Coriolis force to generate electric
power with a long tube between the equator and the Arctic; no sh&*!
More akin to Marge's question, many wonder why we cannot place
hydroelectric turbines at the outlet of irrigation pipes.
Interestingly, it IS economic to generate electric power using an
("expansion") turbine at the outlet of high pressure natural gas pipes
at power generation plants.  Keep up the good wonderin' Marge--there's
no such thing as a dumb question!

Jim; (The young curmudgeon)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information




                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
semi-perpetual motion                                                        R


From djdavis@ibm.net Mon May 29 22:09:49 EDT 1995
Article: 7000 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: djdavis@ibm.net  (Donna Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 28 May 1995 15:55:07 GMT
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3qa6cr$f6a@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com> <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>
Reply-To: djdavis@ibm.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip5-141.fl.us.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.03
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>, egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein) writes:
>In article <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>,
>DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>,
>>Emil Naepflein <egn@philosys.de> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Thanks to all you folks who've been engaging in the EV discussion!
 It's been much better reading than my alternative-the Sunday paper!
     Maybe another possibility is to dream BIG!  How about the possibility
of advances in battery technology, as well as development of residential
co-generation of power (or even self sufficiency) concurrent with the
proliferation of EVs?  Maybe the unplugging of spent battery modules,
and their replacement with pre-charged ones at "service stations"
wouldn't be so improbable if some breakthroughs were made in battery
technology?  Maybe gains in efficiency would make that a moot point?
     I know it borders on science fiction, right now, but how do you suppose 
our existing transportation scenario would have looked to someone in the
horse-and-buggy days? That wasn't so long ago....
     You folks are all on the right track it seems:  identifying the problems
is surely the first step in finding solutions! 

                                                 Another EV Dreamer,
                                                 Donna


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:09:50 EDT 1995
Article: 7001 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV Costs MORE?
Message-ID: <3313.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 06:06:08 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 75
Status: O
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Jim Eyer said
> > in most cases other alternatives have a lower (often much lower) up
> > front cost and often lower lifecycle cost no matter how you cut it.
> > SO?

Tom Gray retorts
>So what?  I have seen utilities make far less intelligent and more
>expensive choices than not choosing the cheapest way to get some extra
>system benefits.  Haven't you?

Jim spews back
So right back--how many wrongs make a right?  If we do not learn from
our mistakes we're bound to repeat them.

The next erroneous assertion from Jim:
> > a) in today's uncertain utility business / market, risk averse
> > utilities (i.e.; avoid long term commitments with uncertain utility
> > and payback) like lower cost (commitment) options in most cases,
> > unless future benefits way offset additional risk and opportunity
> > cost of capital.

More from Tom:
>Yeah, well, just how many MW are we talking about here and what is the
>aggregate impact on SMUD's average rates of this alleged mistake?  .1
>mills?  Offset perhaps by gains in customer loyalty that will serve
>them well in a competitive marketplace?

Jim tries to respond:
A little here and a little there of each of the many green and "good"
electro-wonder-technologies and pretty soon there'll be more than just a
little bit, then what?

Jim's next lame assertion:
> > b) let pv play on a level playing field where everyone can share in
> > the same pot of benefits.  Then in ten years lets revisit this cost
> > versus benefit question.  I'd predict lots of pv for
> > non-grid-connected applications but very little hangin' on the grid.

And Tom says about "level playing field":
>The concept of a level playing field in energy is a joke.

Jim's feeble response:
Sure level playing field is a bit of an ideal circumstance, mostly
because regulators play God and "market surrogates."  In THIS context I
meant it as an intellectual exercise rather than a reality check.  How
about if I call it a free and fair marketplace, with correct pricing of
electricity and related services.  Is that a joke?  Only if the set-
asides and bogusly justified "efficiency" programs persist!

Finally, Tom's concession:
>I agree, PVs are too costly at present for bulk power supply, in
>general.  If SMUD has found a way to let people use them without a
>serious financial penalty, though, more power to them.

Jim says in response:
No-one said SMUD should not pursue this "strategy."  When are YOU gonna
start petitioning them to allow similar subsidies for modular
residential wind turbines?  The fuel cell folks sure want the same
attention as do the battery industry, flywheel folks, natural gas fired
gen-set vendors, dish-Stirling advocates.  Me, I prefer the 2kW micro
nuke packs with coal fired back-up.

Jim; (Energy Dweeb)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information




                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
PV Costs MORE?                                                               R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:09:52 EDT 1995
Article: 7002 of alt.energy.renewable
From: A GHONEIM <SCEAAG@cardiff.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: information
Message-ID: <7293.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:16:46 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 12
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Group Fellows :

I will greatly appreciate sending me any available information about
the names and addresses of the Japanese Scientists or Universities
doing research on the area of Thermal Energy Applications of Solar
Energy.  Best Regards.

A. Ghoneim :
E-mail : Ghoneim@Cardiff.ac.uk


information


From pvpaulset@aol.com Mon May 29 22:09:53 EDT 1995
Article: 7003 of alt.energy.renewable
From: pvpaulset@aol.com
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: pv or wind?  was: sma
Message-ID: <7360.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:20:33 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: PVPAULSET <pvpaulset@aol.com>
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

ross. I have been using pv on my rv for 15 years. works as welll today as
it did then. rv solar electric, 602-443-8520. they are about the oldest
rv/pv place going. they have a book, rvers guide to solar battery
charging. i know a lot of rv'ers using pv. pvpaulset@aol.com
Re: pv or wind?  was: sma                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:09:55 EDT 1995
Article: 7004 of alt.energy.renewable
From: wesley price <wesley@PRICE.III.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Viktor Schauberger
Message-ID: <9241.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 20:18:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 30
Status: O
X-Status: 

You need dough to take you where you wanna go
maybe it was a twit scheme but if it would take him where Victor
Schuamberger leads then I wanna go too.
Now if I could only undelete the message outlining the twit scheme I might
try it.,.....
BTW it aint illegal, just obtrusive and not on any topic thats been
addressed here on AE..
BTW again.. how do you fund AE interests without buying into the system that
is already dedicated to OIL, Nuclear, ie centralized, control and
REdistribution of the only wealth there really is, your own personal energy
in tune with the creators.....

>In article <liveh2o-2705950004140001@liveh2o.earthlink.net>,
>liveh2o@earthlink.net (Jean Paul Tantet) wrote:
>> I am looking for any information on V. Schauberger and his theories of
>> Biosynthesis, Implosion and vortex research with water.  Is anybody
>> actively working with his ideas to produce power sources?  I'd love to
>> know!
>
>Do you _really_ think we're going to help you out after you just
>posted that idiotic, ILLEGAL, pyramid scheme? Go away, twit.
>
>--
>John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net
>
>Re: Viktor Schauberger
>
>

Re: Viktor Schauberger


From djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon May 29 22:09:56 EDT 1995
Article: 7005 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!djsd100
From: djsd100@thor.cam.ac.uk ((!David | Kirsty) Damerell)
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok,alt.education.bangkok.cmc,alt.education.bangkok.databases,alt.education.bangkok.planning,alt.education.bangkok.research,alt.education.bangkok.student,alt.education.bangkok.theory,alt.education.disabled,alt.education.distance,alt.education.email-project,alt.education.research,alt.elvis.king,alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2,alt.emusic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.engr.explosives,alt.ensign.wesley.die.die.die,alt.etext,alt.evil,alt.exotic-music,alt.exploding.kibo,alt.fairs.renaissance,
Subject: Re: The new generation
Date: 28 May 1995 18:19:04 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3qaeqo$cnl@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
References: <mickky-2805951350490001@192.0.2.1>
Reply-To: djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: hammer.thor.cam.ac.uk
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.education.disabled:3761 alt.education.distance:5071 alt.education.email-project:491 alt.education.research:2270 alt.elvis.king:2047 alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2:1109 alt.emusic:3900 alt.energy.renewable:7005 alt.engr.explosives:4146 alt.ensign.wesley.die.die.die:4404 alt.etext:1377 alt.evil:18508 alt.exotic-music:5826 alt.exploding.kibo:1429 alt.fairs.renaissance:2626
Status: O
X-Status: 

Please note: 

1) the preceding chainletter posting is crossposted to many newsgroups -
please do not follow up saying 'What the hell is this doing in <newsgroup
you happen to be seeing it in>'.

2) It appears to be a forgery: in spite of the From: line being some guy
at pop3.pop.net, it appears to have originated (from the Path:) from
cris.com or possibly warp.cris.com, and the 10th name on the list of
suckers is not the name in the From: line. I should email
postmaster@(warp.)cris.com, if you want to complain, and let him sort it
out. 

3) If you are new on the 'net, and think this is a really neat idea, 
remember:
a) you will recieve unprecedented volumes of hate mail - email and snail 
mail, including dead fish and the like.
b) you will lose your account.
c) notwithstanding the comments in the posting, this is illegal in almost 
all countries, including the US and the UK.
d) Get a calculator, and consider the amount of money that needs to be 
involved for the scheme to work.

--
David 'Gotterdammerung' Damerell, GCV Sauricon.    djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk.
Trinity College, Cambridge University. CUWoCS President. All Hail Discordia!
|___|        YOU MUST LEARN THE COMPASSION PROPER TO YOUR TRADE.       |___|
| | |       "What is that?" A SHARP EDGE. Terry Pratchett, Mort.       | | |


From dccoote@werple.mira.net.au Mon May 29 22:09:58 EDT 1995
Article: 7006 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!usenet
From: dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Has anyone got SMUD's address?
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 19:21:07 PST
Organization: werple public-access Internet
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <3q9f1r$12j@eplet.mira.net.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-7.werple.mira.net.au
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.9
Status: O
X-Status: 

I would like to write to SMUD get some more details on their PVs for the 
home project. Has anyone got an email or postal address?

Thanks

David



From nellison@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Mon May 29 22:10:00 EDT 1995
Article: 7007 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ringer.cs.utsa.edu!lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu!nellison
From: nellison@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu (Newton T. Ellison)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture
Subject: Solar air-conditioning for hot, humid regions
Date: 28 May 1995 20:50:07 GMT
Organization: Soar Energy Education Foundation
Lines: 5
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3qanlv$jbt@ringer.cs.utsa.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu
Summary: PVs powering compressors vs. heat-drive absorption?
Keywords: refrigeration,Lithium Bromide,hot water, how hot?
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:7007 sci.energy:32558 alt.architecture:8324
Status: O
X-Status: 








From dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com Mon May 29 22:10:01 EDT 1995
Article: 7008 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
From: dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com (DICK MCDUFFIE)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Battery power
Date: 26 May 1995 03:20:41 -0500
Organization: Addiction Bulletin Board Service, Hollis Me. (207)727-3065
Lines: 15
Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu
Message-ID: <8AA04B5.00010027C1.uuout@hollis.maine.com>
Reply-To: dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com (DICK MCDUFFIE)
NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm looking for some real life experiance from people who live off battery
power, PV or generator charged. I'm using only 4 6V batterys (T-105 type)
in 12V config. and 116 watts of PV. (I'm still on the grid, just checking
feasibility for next (remote) home). How often do you use the hydrometer,
or are digital meter readings enough to determine when to start/stop gener-
ator charging? How fast do you charge the batteries, your charge rate(back-
up not PV) per 100AH of battery bank? I know the big Trace inverter has a
charge option but 100A sounds like alot for my 435AH bank.I'm in the market
for an inverter, does anyone use anything but Trace? I only need an 812, I
have an old Heathkit 200 watt inverter that is fine except it draws 1.75 A
with no load!It runs a 25" color TV and a couple of compact flouresents OK.
                       Thanks,
                          Dick
For Marge:
dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:10:02 EDT 1995
Article: 7009 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ross Binnie <ross.binnie@PRIMETIME.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: pv or wind?  was: sma
Message-ID: <6895.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:09:01 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 43
Status: O
X-Status: 

 -=> Quoting Alternative Energy Discu to Ross Binnie <=-
 AED> Ross Binnie <ross.binnie@primetime.org> wrote:
 >Kevin Eber sugested the use of PV to supply energy for my RV.

 > AED> Don't know what your location is like, but for that application
 > AED> it might be wiser to consider either photovoltaics (i.e. solar cells)
 > AED> or wind power.  If you're in a cramped park, photovoltaics are
 > AED> probably the way to go (as in: on your roof).
 >Re: pv or wind?  was: sma

 AED> I've had 2 53 watt panels roof mounted on a 27 ft class c RV for 3
 AED> years without any problem. Theyv'e been to the gulf coast twice, North
 AED> Carolina 3 times Chicago once. Been caught in hail storms (Marble
 AED> size) twice and they just keep on putting out. I do have to remove
 AED> accumulated dust and dirt occasionally. They are bolted directly to
 AED> the rook with the pv controller mounted inside the living quarters.
 AED> They carry the gas frig, furnace and lights just fine. For extended
 AED> cloudy days I use a 300 watt gas generator to recharge the batterys.
 AED> If we watch TV in the evening (14 inch color set drawing 5 amps @ 12
 AED> volts. I usually crank the small gen. Also have 4 KW gen on board but
 AED> never use it unless we need the airconditioner. Can't Aircondition on
 AED> Solar.


Thanks for the response. Can you tell me the make & model of these PVs and
where I can get them?


Ross Binnie




r.binnie@primetime.org
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Re: pv or wind?  was: sma


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon May 29 22:10:03 EDT 1995
Article: 7010 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.Gsu.EDU!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Meanwhile, in Texas...
Date: 26 May 1995 06:13:27 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <3q49k7$d8i@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
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Status: O
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Joining this program in medias res...

>Well, the kid wonder and his sidekick just wandered by; they finished my
>uh, square.  I told them put me 4 cornerposts in the ground and nail 2x4s
>around the top.

Hmmm. How big is this square? 16' x 16'?

>Well, they set the posts in cement and screwed the 2x4s
>around the top and braced the corners.

OK...

>After they recovered from the shock of charging me $120 for the whole thing, 
>we looked up one of your messages with the 800 number for Dynaglas.

Replex has an 800 number. The Dynaglas people are at (408) 997-6100. If I
were you, I'd look in your local phone book for commercial greenhouse
and nursery suppliers, and/or call Stuppy at (800) 877-5025 and matter-of-
factly ask them to send you a copy of their nice 1/2" thick pink greenhouse
catalog, which happens to have a $5 price printed on the cover, which as a
large Texas agribusinessperson, you should not have to pay. No need to
even talk about that.

One local greenhouse supplier sells Dynaglas in standard 4' x 12' lengths,
and delivers to the Collegeville area once a week. It's fun to watch
them deliver to my house. They pull up in front of the house in a full
size tractor trailer, in this rural neighborhood. The driver won't
come into my driveway, because he could never turn around, so I have
to carry the stuff in from the road. 

Dynaglas is for commercial greenhouses, and comes in custom lengths.
The product sold to homeowners, etc. is called Suntough, (tuff?) available
in standard lengths at Home Depot stores, etc. I'd get the 4' wide clear
kind, not the 2' wide stuff that Home Depot sells, since that way you have
less work to put it up, and fewer joints for air leaks.
 
>After all, I told them, with this overengineered thing for the 
>pole beans, now I have to do something more than just run vines on it.

Ya know, a lot of engineers design things before they start building them.
They make a drawing, a plan, ahead of time :-) Your overengineered pole bean
support is an underengineered building. But I guess ya gotta start somewhere.
At least real engineers do that. We electrical engineers frequently just
wing it, when designing computer systems, and plan to fix it up later
with programmable parts and software.

>So our next step is to figure how to put glazing over the top; would you
>suggest something more slanty, or putting thin PVC pipe curved over the top? 

I would say... Make the south wall vertical, or make it slant back, up
to say, 30 degrees from vertical, towards the north, using 12-16' long
straight 2 x 4s on 4' centers. (This will make a tall greenhouse.) 
And cover that south wall with Dynaglas or polyethylene film.

Then, take some more long 2 x 4s and lay them down on their 1 1/2" edges and
make some saw cuts about halfway through the 2 x 4s across their other short
edges every 2-6" or so, along, say, 12' of their 16' length. The saw cuts
at the end should be a bit closer together or deeper than the ones in the
middle of the 2 x 4. Then slip some bricks or cement blocks under the cut
sections of two of the 2 x 4s, and bend them into parabolas, roughly, so
that when the uncut straight length of each 2 x 4 is resting flat on the
ground, the cut curved part is sitting 1 - 3' above the ground. You may
have to get some people (or a car) to stand on top of the 2 x 4s to make
this curve, or you may have to make the saw cuts a bit deeper, but don't
make the cuts any deeper than you have to...

(This is not the way that people usually build houses :-)

Then, using some 2" deck screws, screw some thin (1/4"?) exterior plywood or
exterior flakeboard to the concave surface, on 4' centers, keeping the 2 x4s
curved. When you are done, you will have two 16' 2 x 4s connected by two
sheets of plywood (or Thermo-Ply if you can find any), with the plywood
screwed onto half of the width of the short edge of each 2 x 4, ie 3/4"
of each short edge of each 2 x 4. The plywood will thus be supported on
4' centers.

Paint the inside surface of each piece of plywood white. Make another one
of these curved 4' x 16' panels, with the same shape. Then attach the 4'
edge of one panel to the NE corner of the 16' long north wall with a bolt,
so it can hinge up, measure over exactly 4' and attach the other panel in
the same way. And bolt another curved 2 x 4 to the NW corner of the
foundation. Then nail a 16' 2 x 4 ridge beam flat along the upper ends
of the 5 2 x 4s, and screw on 4 more sheets of plywood to the underside,
between the two panels, to make two more panels. Fill up the space between
the plywood and the top edges of the 2 x 4s with leaves or straw or beadboard
or some leftover foam peanut packing material, staple a layer of poly film
over that, using batten tape, and tilt up the north wall, and attach the
ridge beam to the 2 x 4s of the south wall at the peak, somehow, as you stand
on an orchard ladder. A vent at the top would be nice, with a door to close
it somehow in winter time.

>in the fall, we're planning on 55 gallon drums of water in the back

Sounds good, under the benches. Perhaps with a solar powered fan at the top
to blow down some warm air through a poly film duct to the space under the
benches, with a poly film skirt around the drums to make a solar closet. 

>and Dynaglas on the other 3 walls...

Sounds good...

Nick



From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:10:04 EDT 1995
Article: 7011 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Brazilian Ethanol
Message-ID: <515.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:45:25 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Brazilian Ethanol


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:10:06 EDT 1995
Article: 7012 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Message-ID: <547.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:46:54 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:10:07 EDT 1995
Article: 7013 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Message-ID: <602.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:47:47 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:10:08 EDT 1995
Article: 7014 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: PV and hot air wind gens
Message-ID: <2332.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 05:37:34 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: PV and hot air wind gens


From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:10:09 EDT 1995
Article: 7015 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BHw1.FuL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <6019.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:07:13 GMT
Lines: 121
Sender: hatunen@netcom4.netcom.com
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X-Status: 

In article <6019.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>You wrote:
>>
>>In article <27655.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
>>Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>>There are already hundreds of garages in typical American large cities.
>>>All that's needed is the addition of charging units.  These could be
>>>overhead in unused space.  You make this seem insurmountable, for some
>>>reason...
>>
>>Your "all that's needed" contains the requirement for whole new
>>industries.
>
>Battery chargers a whole new industry?  Do you still have stock
>in buggy whip manufacturers?  :)

I'm going to call you an ignoramus here, because that's basically what
you call me below.

We're not talking about just a battery charger. We're talkign about
battery chargers so foolproof any idiot can drive up to it in a garage
and use it. And it's got to be designed to accurately bill the correct
person. Furthermore, it's got to be able to defeat the efforts of
people to use it without being billed, or getting their billing sent to
another person.

On top of that, it's going to require the manufacture of a
whole raft of these things. That require design and tooling that simply
doesn't exist now.


[...]

>Scratch? You mean no one builds batteries today?  What about the market in home
>computers, we had to build that from scratch, didn't we?  I don't see the
>reasoning behind your hesitation or concern.

And look what happened to that home computer market the first time
around (are you old enough to remember the first time around?)

[...]

>I have a battery charger in my basement.  I have a degree in electromechanical
>engineering and KNOW that the technology to charge batteries is simple and low
>tech.  No challenge, gradual capitalization.  If you have further disagreement
>with this, then provide supporting engineering and economic analysis, with
>reasonable assumptions.

And I have a degree in Physics, along with a decade of experience as a
manufacturing engineer, and tool and machine design engineer, for
General Motors, Hughes Aircraft, Rolls-Royce (jet engines, not cars),
and I'm telling you it ain't that easy.

[...]

>Who replaced the horse drawn carriages?  Who replaces broken down buildings?
>Who replaces old cars?  Who provides that parking lots for parking cars?  Who
>provides replacement gasoline for automobiles?

Horse drawn carriages were rep[laced by the car. It was invented in the
1880s. It did no replaceing to speak of for over 30 years, until Ford
finally developed a very high production assembly line to reduce the
cost of cars.

>>You sound like the kind of person who thinks getting rid of shit is
>>easy: you just flush the toilet.
>
>This is becoming a personal attack; unless you have something intelligent to
>share, I am ending all discourse with you.

I expect you are saying this becasue I used shit for an example. If I
had said you sound like the kind of person who thinks getting gasoline
is easy, you just turn on the pump and pay the clerk, you probably
would not have considered it all that personal. But I consider shit the
epitome of something that takes a lot of money, infrastructure and
engineering to get rid of, but few people realize just how much.

>>And you know absolutely nothing about the actual engineering,
>>manufacturing and construction requirements such a changeover will
>>require.
>
>No, I'm just not afraid of the change.
>
>>Just start working backward from such a commercial garage
>>recharger. There's the wiring, the new transformers, enlarged or new
>>substations. In fact, if you work out the amount of electrical
>>gereating capacity to replace the gasoline cars in the Los Angeles
>>Basin, you are looking at a requirement for several new generating
>>stations.

>The demand would not occur overnight.  If it did, then there would be
>a problem.

> Right now, the law calls for a 2% market in EVs.  Consider that in your
>pondereings.

Let's wait and see what actually happens. I do not believe that there
are enough people whw will actually want the EVs for the goal to be
reached. You can force the manufacturers to make them, but you can't
force people to buy them. But we shall see. Perhaps you are right.

>>Eventually something like EVs will probably be required. No matter how
>>optimistic we are, eventually teh oil will run out, or at least become
>>scarce enough to make it too expensive to use for personal
>>transportation. But any changeover form oil will require a rahter
>>extensive change in style of life .
>
>It all depends upon the viewpoint of the individual.  I don't see extensive
>lifestyle changes, especially with innovations in technology.

Well, for one thing, you probably won't be able to hop in the ol' EV
and head down the road from SF to LA. 


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:10:11 EDT 1995
Article: 7016 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Winfield <winfield@CPCUG.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <13066.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:11:14 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 10
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X-Status: 

> Piezo electric power is transferred to the parcel house's Eko-powerbus
> which is embedded in the home's eco-floor.  The power--very little
> energy is produced--is used to run the eco-micropower-fans and the super

well, the piezo crystals elec gen, albiet small, might be enuf if folks
can get nanotech further developed. (i am a devote' of Eric Drexler's
"Engines of creation" and "molecular nanotech"
i am >>>not<<< a fan of pyramid power, critters from Arcturus (or whheerever)
<grin>
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:10:12 EDT 1995
Article: 7017 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Winfield <winfield@CPCUG.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <13712.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:19:53 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 14
Status: O
X-Status: 

> >I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
> >are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.
>
> You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
> energy it took to get up the hill, right?
>
to summerize thermodynamics
1) You can't win
2) You can't break even
3) You can't get out of the game.

#2 is applicable in returning energy by downhill coasting
<g>
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:10:14 EDT 1995
Article: 7018 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "R.Hales" <R.Hales@cranfield.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Request:where to study RE?
Message-ID: <13845.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:21:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

Peter (hopirap?) from Hong Kong SuperNET requested

>I am looking for schools,institutes,universities that you might recommend for
>studying Renewable energy technologies and International Development. I would
>like to do a masters degree. I am searching, preferably for a European
>institution, but I am also interested in other locations as well (the US,
>naturally).

In the U.K. there are ten renewable energy masters courses that I know about, at
eight different universities ( six in England:  Cranfield, Loughborough,
Reading, Sussex, Sunderland, Salford;  and two in Scotland: Strathclyde, Glasgow
Caledonian )  Have a look at my web page for contact addresses. I'm not saying
which of them I recommend though.  The choice, as they say, is yours.

>Please reply to my email address directly.

Your email address did not completely come through with your message so I can
only reply to the list.

...............................................................................
 .
 .

Richard L. Hales                               Email  r.hales@cranfield.ac.uk
Wind Turbine Research Group                    Telephone +44 - (0)1234 754640
Cranfield University    U.K.                         Fax +44 - (0)1234 750728
World Wide Web URL                   http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sme/ppa/wind/
Re: Request:where to study RE?                                               R


From af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon May 29 22:10:15 EDT 1995
Article: 7019 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!af017
From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Message-ID: <D96IAq.H1M@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: af017@freenet2.carleton.ca (David R. Smith)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:28:02 GMT
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X-Status: 


Conspiracy from Oil Companies??
Don't be silly, just cause they rigged the whole 70s oil
shortage and got away with it......
Naaaa.....why would companies which make billions in the
oil industry be concerened about loss of profits and jobs
>from  PV or wind energy?
Not a chance, bud.
Any more questions?
good.

by the way, PV are currently being made very cheaply in
places like mainland China and India.



From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Mon May 29 22:10:17 EDT 1995
Article: 7020 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Web/URL for Home Power Magazine sought
Date: 29 May 1995 02:30:14 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 13
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3qbbjm$nmp@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone know where I can find Home Power magazine, and the other
(Home Energy?) with a web-browser? Someone recently referred to them
being at sunsite, but none of their search engines seems to be able to
locate them for me.

Thanks


-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid)    E-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist,    The Ohio State University
There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the earth as if it was 
a business in liquidation.  -- Herman Daly, quoted in "Earth in the Balance"


From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:10:19 EDT 1995
Article: 7021 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BI3t.G9L@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de> <NEWTNews.16619.801554729.tonyc@tonyc.144volts.com> <801559989snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:11:52 GMT
Lines: 21
Sender: hatunen@netcom4.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <801559989snz@mold.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Graham Thomas  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

>A second question. How many vehicles in total operate in California
>Edison's supply area? Bet its more than 200,000.

It's probably close to 10,000,000, maybe more. That 200K is a drpo in
the bucket, hobbyist stuff, and I'm not a bit surprised SoCalEdison
could handle it.

But replacement of a significant percentage of those ten million is
another story altogether.


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:10:20 EDT 1995
Article: 7022 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: water pump question
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BIHt.Gy2@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3q8rl6$ilo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:20:17 GMT
Lines: 47
Sender: hatunen@netcom4.netcom.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3q8rl6$ilo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
SarahS4151 <sarahs4151@aol.com> wrote:
>hello
>what a perfect time to find this newsgroup!!
>
>so here's the problem
>we just bought a piece of property with a FANTASTIC spring. the problem is
>it is at the bottom of the property.
>first we thought we could get a pump run by solar, any ideas? the spring
>runs 
>possibly 5 gpm.
>
>then today i thought of another idea.
>
> a little creek runs past the property near the spring (they connect a bit
>farther down). maybe i could put a paddle wheel in the creek to run a
>rocker to run a pump??

You don't say what part of the country you are in, and that could
affect the consequences of the answers to thess question: is the stream
on your property? Would you have to build a small dam on the stream,
and if so, is it an ecologically important stream, such as a salmon
run? 

What total head is required to get the water from the bottom of the
well to your house/storage tank? It could take a lot more wter wheel
than you think.

>does this sound feasible? we need to pump at least 50 ft up to a tank to
>feed the house, garden, etc with some pressure.

Technicaly, it can be done. But fesibility is an economic question.

[...]

>sarah
>as far west as the internet gets on the continental u s

Oops. Answers that question to some extent. Is it a salmon run?



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Mon May 29 22:10:21 EDT 1995
Article: 7023 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!noc.netcom.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Danish off-shore wind farms
Date: 29 May 1995 02:51:44 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3qbcs0$npq@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I just read the front page of the Danish magazine "Ingenioren" (The Danish
Engineering Weekly), dated May 12., 1995.

The ministry of ecology and the ministry of energy, have come out with a
report about off-shore wind-parks. They suggest four locations, with room
for a total of 7000 windmills, each capable of producing 1 MW. They expect
the to be about $2500 -  $2600 per installed kW capacity, whicvh should
produce electricity for around 10 cents/kWh.

They mention that experience with the only existing off-shore wind-park
(11 mills, each 450 kW) shows that off-shore installations will have
production prices comparable to poor landbased locations. The draw of the
off-shore sites is then primarily lack of sufficinet locations on-shore.
The prices for good on-shore locations are now comparable to those produced
by the convetional coal-based power plants in the country. (note that Danish
environmental standards, and fuel taxes, are higher than most other countries).


-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid)    E-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist,    The Ohio State University
There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the earth as if it was 
a business in liquidation.  -- Herman Daly, quoted in "Earth in the Balance"


From hbphi002@huey.csun.edu Mon May 29 22:10:23 EDT 1995
Article: 7024 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!csun.edu!hbphi002
From: hbphi002@huey.csun.edu (joseph oberlander)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 00:34:37 GMT
Organization: California State University, Northridge
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3q37mt$k9v@dewey.csun.edu>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: huey.csun.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

There is a very easy way to do all of this, but it isn't cheap.

Use a giant flywheel.

Saves on space, no 800lb of batteries to store or hulk around, has the
ability to dump 30Kwh in the required time(actually in a few ms, in
theory), can be slowly recharged overnight by a generator, power lines, or
even a simple diesel engine in emergencies.

Building huge flywheels for energy storage is easy to do, and is time and
space-efficient.  No employees to pay, and you just have to get it checked
about once a month to make sure it is in good shape.(Not to mention the
jobs created for all the inspectors)

The only problem would be in the case of an earthquake or something that
caused it to fail, but it would be built below ground to minimize
damage.(probably less than a gas line rupturing, which happened hundreds
of times when we had the last huge earthquake here, with no loss of life.)

Joe



From tonyc@sna.com Mon May 29 22:10:24 EDT 1995
Article: 7025 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!emf.emf.net!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!tweety.sna.com!root
From: tonyc@sna.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car Talk
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 15:35:02 PDT
Organization: Sacramento Network Access
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <NEWTNews.13203.801701170.tonyc@tonyc.sna.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tonyc.sna.com
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X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage
Status: O
X-Status: 


Donna,

Don't be a dreamer !

If you fit the EV profile of driving 50-75 miles per day (or less)
for 90% of your driving, then seriously think about getting 
an EV (I do and am).  This will help push the technology by 
helping to create the market and to help reduce pollution and 
our dependence on foreign oil.

If your really interested in seeing alot of EV related talk
>from  those in the business and others who are really involved 
with the electric vehicle, then sign onto the EV Discussion List.

The list is only available by e-mail, so you must sign up for it.

To do that send e-mail to - listserv@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu
then in the body of the message type - subscribe ev your name

That's it.  Then to send mail to the people on the list for all
to see, you will send your email to - ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu

Good luck.

Tony Cygan
tonyc@sna.com




From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:17:31 EDT 1995
Article: 6999 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <6650.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 18:01:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 35
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Marge Wood asks:
> > why couldn't the wind rushing past the vehicle
> > be funneled into something with a blade hooked to a battery?

Tom Gray Responds:
>Although it is not intuitively obvious, Marge, this is a perpetual
>motion thing.  You can't capture enough energy to make up for the
>additional drag on the vehicle that whatever structure you design to
>extract the energy creates.

Nice response Tom.  If it of interest, I had many opportunities to
respond to many such inquiries as a researcher at a large un-named gas
and electric utility in Northern California.  Among my favorites were
the folks that wanted to use the Coriolis force to generate electric
power with a long tube between the equator and the Arctic; no sh&*!
More akin to Marge's question, many wonder why we cannot place
hydroelectric turbines at the outlet of irrigation pipes.
Interestingly, it IS economic to generate electric power using an
("expansion") turbine at the outlet of high pressure natural gas pipes
at power generation plants.  Keep up the good wonderin' Marge--there's
no such thing as a dumb question!

Jim; (The young curmudgeon)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information




                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
semi-perpetual motion                                                        R


From djdavis@ibm.net Mon May 29 22:17:33 EDT 1995
Article: 7000 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: djdavis@ibm.net  (Donna Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 28 May 1995 15:55:07 GMT
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3qa6cr$f6a@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com> <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>
Reply-To: djdavis@ibm.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip5-141.fl.us.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.03
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>, egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein) writes:
>In article <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>,
>DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>,
>>Emil Naepflein <egn@philosys.de> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Thanks to all you folks who've been engaging in the EV discussion!
 It's been much better reading than my alternative-the Sunday paper!
     Maybe another possibility is to dream BIG!  How about the possibility
of advances in battery technology, as well as development of residential
co-generation of power (or even self sufficiency) concurrent with the
proliferation of EVs?  Maybe the unplugging of spent battery modules,
and their replacement with pre-charged ones at "service stations"
wouldn't be so improbable if some breakthroughs were made in battery
technology?  Maybe gains in efficiency would make that a moot point?
     I know it borders on science fiction, right now, but how do you suppose 
our existing transportation scenario would have looked to someone in the
horse-and-buggy days? That wasn't so long ago....
     You folks are all on the right track it seems:  identifying the problems
is surely the first step in finding solutions! 

                                                 Another EV Dreamer,
                                                 Donna


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:27 EDT 1995
Article: 6999 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <6650.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 18:01:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 35
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Marge Wood asks:
> > why couldn't the wind rushing past the vehicle
> > be funneled into something with a blade hooked to a battery?

Tom Gray Responds:
>Although it is not intuitively obvious, Marge, this is a perpetual
>motion thing.  You can't capture enough energy to make up for the
>additional drag on the vehicle that whatever structure you design to
>extract the energy creates.

Nice response Tom.  If it of interest, I had many opportunities to
respond to many such inquiries as a researcher at a large un-named gas
and electric utility in Northern California.  Among my favorites were
the folks that wanted to use the Coriolis force to generate electric
power with a long tube between the equator and the Arctic; no sh&*!
More akin to Marge's question, many wonder why we cannot place
hydroelectric turbines at the outlet of irrigation pipes.
Interestingly, it IS economic to generate electric power using an
("expansion") turbine at the outlet of high pressure natural gas pipes
at power generation plants.  Keep up the good wonderin' Marge--there's
no such thing as a dumb question!

Jim; (The young curmudgeon)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information




                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
semi-perpetual motion                                                        R


From djdavis@ibm.net Mon May 29 22:18:29 EDT 1995
Article: 7000 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!news-m01.ny.us.ibm.net!usenet
From: djdavis@ibm.net  (Donna Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 28 May 1995 15:55:07 GMT
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3qa6cr$f6a@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>
References: <9924.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de> <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com> <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>
Reply-To: djdavis@ibm.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip5-141.fl.us.ibm.net
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.03
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <3q3sej$epo@philos.philosys.de>, egn@philosys.de (Emil Naepflein) writes:
>In article <hatunenD95A62.K15@netcom.com>,
>DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <3ps0c3$3kq@philos.philosys.de>,
>>Emil Naepflein <egn@philosys.de> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Thanks to all you folks who've been engaging in the EV discussion!
 It's been much better reading than my alternative-the Sunday paper!
     Maybe another possibility is to dream BIG!  How about the possibility
of advances in battery technology, as well as development of residential
co-generation of power (or even self sufficiency) concurrent with the
proliferation of EVs?  Maybe the unplugging of spent battery modules,
and their replacement with pre-charged ones at "service stations"
wouldn't be so improbable if some breakthroughs were made in battery
technology?  Maybe gains in efficiency would make that a moot point?
     I know it borders on science fiction, right now, but how do you suppose 
our existing transportation scenario would have looked to someone in the
horse-and-buggy days? That wasn't so long ago....
     You folks are all on the right track it seems:  identifying the problems
is surely the first step in finding solutions! 

                                                 Another EV Dreamer,
                                                 Donna


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:30 EDT 1995
Article: 7001 of alt.energy.renewable
From: J Eyer <j.eyer@microex.com>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV Costs MORE?
Message-ID: <3313.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 06:06:08 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 75
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Eyer said
> > in most cases other alternatives have a lower (often much lower) up
> > front cost and often lower lifecycle cost no matter how you cut it.
> > SO?

Tom Gray retorts
>So what?  I have seen utilities make far less intelligent and more
>expensive choices than not choosing the cheapest way to get some extra
>system benefits.  Haven't you?

Jim spews back
So right back--how many wrongs make a right?  If we do not learn from
our mistakes we're bound to repeat them.

The next erroneous assertion from Jim:
> > a) in today's uncertain utility business / market, risk averse
> > utilities (i.e.; avoid long term commitments with uncertain utility
> > and payback) like lower cost (commitment) options in most cases,
> > unless future benefits way offset additional risk and opportunity
> > cost of capital.

More from Tom:
>Yeah, well, just how many MW are we talking about here and what is the
>aggregate impact on SMUD's average rates of this alleged mistake?  .1
>mills?  Offset perhaps by gains in customer loyalty that will serve
>them well in a competitive marketplace?

Jim tries to respond:
A little here and a little there of each of the many green and "good"
electro-wonder-technologies and pretty soon there'll be more than just a
little bit, then what?

Jim's next lame assertion:
> > b) let pv play on a level playing field where everyone can share in
> > the same pot of benefits.  Then in ten years lets revisit this cost
> > versus benefit question.  I'd predict lots of pv for
> > non-grid-connected applications but very little hangin' on the grid.

And Tom says about "level playing field":
>The concept of a level playing field in energy is a joke.

Jim's feeble response:
Sure level playing field is a bit of an ideal circumstance, mostly
because regulators play God and "market surrogates."  In THIS context I
meant it as an intellectual exercise rather than a reality check.  How
about if I call it a free and fair marketplace, with correct pricing of
electricity and related services.  Is that a joke?  Only if the set-
asides and bogusly justified "efficiency" programs persist!

Finally, Tom's concession:
>I agree, PVs are too costly at present for bulk power supply, in
>general.  If SMUD has found a way to let people use them without a
>serious financial penalty, though, more power to them.

Jim says in response:
No-one said SMUD should not pursue this "strategy."  When are YOU gonna
start petitioning them to allow similar subsidies for modular
residential wind turbines?  The fuel cell folks sure want the same
attention as do the battery industry, flywheel folks, natural gas fired
gen-set vendors, dish-Stirling advocates.  Me, I prefer the 2kW micro
nuke packs with coal fired back-up.

Jim; (Energy Dweeb)

                    EEEE   IIII CONSULTING
    Jim Eyer        EE  A   II
                    EEE  N  II
j.eyer@microex.com  EE    D II   Energy &
                    EEEEE  IIII Information




                E-mailOffice by MICROEX, 800-MICROEX
PV Costs MORE?                                                               R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:31 EDT 1995
Article: 7002 of alt.energy.renewable
From: A GHONEIM <SCEAAG@cardiff.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: information
Message-ID: <7293.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:16:46 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 12
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Group Fellows :

I will greatly appreciate sending me any available information about
the names and addresses of the Japanese Scientists or Universities
doing research on the area of Thermal Energy Applications of Solar
Energy.  Best Regards.

A. Ghoneim :
E-mail : Ghoneim@Cardiff.ac.uk


information


From pvpaulset@aol.com Mon May 29 22:18:33 EDT 1995
Article: 7003 of alt.energy.renewable
From: pvpaulset@aol.com
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: pv or wind?  was: sma
Message-ID: <7360.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:20:33 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: PVPAULSET <pvpaulset@aol.com>
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

ross. I have been using pv on my rv for 15 years. works as welll today as
it did then. rv solar electric, 602-443-8520. they are about the oldest
rv/pv place going. they have a book, rvers guide to solar battery
charging. i know a lot of rv'ers using pv. pvpaulset@aol.com
Re: pv or wind?  was: sma                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:34 EDT 1995
Article: 7004 of alt.energy.renewable
From: wesley price <wesley@PRICE.III.NET>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Viktor Schauberger
Message-ID: <9241.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 20:18:09 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
Reply-To: Alternative Energy Discussion List <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Lines: 30
Status: O
X-Status: 

You need dough to take you where you wanna go
maybe it was a twit scheme but if it would take him where Victor
Schuamberger leads then I wanna go too.
Now if I could only undelete the message outlining the twit scheme I might
try it.,.....
BTW it aint illegal, just obtrusive and not on any topic thats been
addressed here on AE..
BTW again.. how do you fund AE interests without buying into the system that
is already dedicated to OIL, Nuclear, ie centralized, control and
REdistribution of the only wealth there really is, your own personal energy
in tune with the creators.....

>In article <liveh2o-2705950004140001@liveh2o.earthlink.net>,
>liveh2o@earthlink.net (Jean Paul Tantet) wrote:
>> I am looking for any information on V. Schauberger and his theories of
>> Biosynthesis, Implosion and vortex research with water.  Is anybody
>> actively working with his ideas to produce power sources?  I'd love to
>> know!
>
>Do you _really_ think we're going to help you out after you just
>posted that idiotic, ILLEGAL, pyramid scheme? Go away, twit.
>
>--
>John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net
>
>Re: Viktor Schauberger
>
>

Re: Viktor Schauberger


From djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon May 29 22:18:35 EDT 1995
Article: 7005 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!djsd100
From: djsd100@thor.cam.ac.uk ((!David | Kirsty) Damerell)
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok,alt.education.bangkok.cmc,alt.education.bangkok.databases,alt.education.bangkok.planning,alt.education.bangkok.research,alt.education.bangkok.student,alt.education.bangkok.theory,alt.education.disabled,alt.education.distance,alt.education.email-project,alt.education.research,alt.elvis.king,alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2,alt.emusic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.engr.explosives,alt.ensign.wesley.die.die.die,alt.etext,alt.evil,alt.exotic-music,alt.exploding.kibo,alt.fairs.renaissance,
Subject: Re: The new generation
Date: 28 May 1995 18:19:04 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3qaeqo$cnl@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
References: <mickky-2805951350490001@192.0.2.1>
Reply-To: djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: hammer.thor.cam.ac.uk
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.education.disabled:3761 alt.education.distance:5071 alt.education.email-project:491 alt.education.research:2270 alt.elvis.king:2047 alt.emulators.ibmpc.apple2:1109 alt.emusic:3900 alt.energy.renewable:7005 alt.engr.explosives:4146 alt.ensign.wesley.die.die.die:4404 alt.etext:1377 alt.evil:18508 alt.exotic-music:5826 alt.exploding.kibo:1429 alt.fairs.renaissance:2626
Status: O
X-Status: 

Please note: 

1) the preceding chainletter posting is crossposted to many newsgroups -
please do not follow up saying 'What the hell is this doing in <newsgroup
you happen to be seeing it in>'.

2) It appears to be a forgery: in spite of the From: line being some guy
at pop3.pop.net, it appears to have originated (from the Path:) from
cris.com or possibly warp.cris.com, and the 10th name on the list of
suckers is not the name in the From: line. I should email
postmaster@(warp.)cris.com, if you want to complain, and let him sort it
out. 

3) If you are new on the 'net, and think this is a really neat idea, 
remember:
a) you will recieve unprecedented volumes of hate mail - email and snail 
mail, including dead fish and the like.
b) you will lose your account.
c) notwithstanding the comments in the posting, this is illegal in almost 
all countries, including the US and the UK.
d) Get a calculator, and consider the amount of money that needs to be 
involved for the scheme to work.

--
David 'Gotterdammerung' Damerell, GCV Sauricon.    djsd100@hermes.cam.ac.uk.
Trinity College, Cambridge University. CUWoCS President. All Hail Discordia!
|___|        YOU MUST LEARN THE COMPASSION PROPER TO YOUR TRADE.       |___|
| | |       "What is that?" A SHARP EDGE. Terry Pratchett, Mort.       | | |


From dccoote@werple.mira.net.au Mon May 29 22:18:36 EDT 1995
Article: 7006 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: dccoote@werple.mira.net.au (David Coote)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Has anyone got SMUD's address?
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 19:21:07 PST
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I would like to write to SMUD get some more details on their PVs for the 
home project. Has anyone got an email or postal address?

Thanks

David



From nellison@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Mon May 29 22:18:37 EDT 1995
Article: 7007 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nellison@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu (Newton T. Ellison)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture
Subject: Solar air-conditioning for hot, humid regions
Date: 28 May 1995 20:50:07 GMT
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Summary: PVs powering compressors vs. heat-drive absorption?
Keywords: refrigeration,Lithium Bromide,hot water, how hot?
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:7007 sci.energy:32558 alt.architecture:8324
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From dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com Mon May 29 22:18:40 EDT 1995
Article: 7008 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com (DICK MCDUFFIE)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Battery power
Date: 26 May 1995 03:20:41 -0500
Organization: Addiction Bulletin Board Service, Hollis Me. (207)727-3065
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I'm looking for some real life experiance from people who live off battery
power, PV or generator charged. I'm using only 4 6V batterys (T-105 type)
in 12V config. and 116 watts of PV. (I'm still on the grid, just checking
feasibility for next (remote) home). How often do you use the hydrometer,
or are digital meter readings enough to determine when to start/stop gener-
ator charging? How fast do you charge the batteries, your charge rate(back-
up not PV) per 100AH of battery bank? I know the big Trace inverter has a
charge option but 100A sounds like alot for my 435AH bank.I'm in the market
for an inverter, does anyone use anything but Trace? I only need an 812, I
have an old Heathkit 200 watt inverter that is fine except it draws 1.75 A
with no load!It runs a 25" color TV and a couple of compact flouresents OK.
                       Thanks,
                          Dick
For Marge:
dick.mcduffie@hollis.maine.com


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:41 EDT 1995
Article: 7009 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Ross Binnie <ross.binnie@PRIMETIME.ORG>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: pv or wind?  was: sma
Message-ID: <6895.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 19:09:01 GMT
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 -=> Quoting Alternative Energy Discu to Ross Binnie <=-
 AED> Ross Binnie <ross.binnie@primetime.org> wrote:
 >Kevin Eber sugested the use of PV to supply energy for my RV.

 > AED> Don't know what your location is like, but for that application
 > AED> it might be wiser to consider either photovoltaics (i.e. solar cells)
 > AED> or wind power.  If you're in a cramped park, photovoltaics are
 > AED> probably the way to go (as in: on your roof).
 >Re: pv or wind?  was: sma

 AED> I've had 2 53 watt panels roof mounted on a 27 ft class c RV for 3
 AED> years without any problem. Theyv'e been to the gulf coast twice, North
 AED> Carolina 3 times Chicago once. Been caught in hail storms (Marble
 AED> size) twice and they just keep on putting out. I do have to remove
 AED> accumulated dust and dirt occasionally. They are bolted directly to
 AED> the rook with the pv controller mounted inside the living quarters.
 AED> They carry the gas frig, furnace and lights just fine. For extended
 AED> cloudy days I use a 300 watt gas generator to recharge the batterys.
 AED> If we watch TV in the evening (14 inch color set drawing 5 amps @ 12
 AED> volts. I usually crank the small gen. Also have 4 KW gen on board but
 AED> never use it unless we need the airconditioner. Can't Aircondition on
 AED> Solar.


Thanks for the response. Can you tell me the make & model of these PVs and
where I can get them?


Ross Binnie




r.binnie@primetime.org
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Re: pv or wind?  was: sma


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon May 29 22:18:43 EDT 1995
Article: 7010 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Meanwhile, in Texas...
Date: 26 May 1995 06:13:27 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Joining this program in medias res...

>Well, the kid wonder and his sidekick just wandered by; they finished my
>uh, square.  I told them put me 4 cornerposts in the ground and nail 2x4s
>around the top.

Hmmm. How big is this square? 16' x 16'?

>Well, they set the posts in cement and screwed the 2x4s
>around the top and braced the corners.

OK...

>After they recovered from the shock of charging me $120 for the whole thing, 
>we looked up one of your messages with the 800 number for Dynaglas.

Replex has an 800 number. The Dynaglas people are at (408) 997-6100. If I
were you, I'd look in your local phone book for commercial greenhouse
and nursery suppliers, and/or call Stuppy at (800) 877-5025 and matter-of-
factly ask them to send you a copy of their nice 1/2" thick pink greenhouse
catalog, which happens to have a $5 price printed on the cover, which as a
large Texas agribusinessperson, you should not have to pay. No need to
even talk about that.

One local greenhouse supplier sells Dynaglas in standard 4' x 12' lengths,
and delivers to the Collegeville area once a week. It's fun to watch
them deliver to my house. They pull up in front of the house in a full
size tractor trailer, in this rural neighborhood. The driver won't
come into my driveway, because he could never turn around, so I have
to carry the stuff in from the road. 

Dynaglas is for commercial greenhouses, and comes in custom lengths.
The product sold to homeowners, etc. is called Suntough, (tuff?) available
in standard lengths at Home Depot stores, etc. I'd get the 4' wide clear
kind, not the 2' wide stuff that Home Depot sells, since that way you have
less work to put it up, and fewer joints for air leaks.
 
>After all, I told them, with this overengineered thing for the 
>pole beans, now I have to do something more than just run vines on it.

Ya know, a lot of engineers design things before they start building them.
They make a drawing, a plan, ahead of time :-) Your overengineered pole bean
support is an underengineered building. But I guess ya gotta start somewhere.
At least real engineers do that. We electrical engineers frequently just
wing it, when designing computer systems, and plan to fix it up later
with programmable parts and software.

>So our next step is to figure how to put glazing over the top; would you
>suggest something more slanty, or putting thin PVC pipe curved over the top? 

I would say... Make the south wall vertical, or make it slant back, up
to say, 30 degrees from vertical, towards the north, using 12-16' long
straight 2 x 4s on 4' centers. (This will make a tall greenhouse.) 
And cover that south wall with Dynaglas or polyethylene film.

Then, take some more long 2 x 4s and lay them down on their 1 1/2" edges and
make some saw cuts about halfway through the 2 x 4s across their other short
edges every 2-6" or so, along, say, 12' of their 16' length. The saw cuts
at the end should be a bit closer together or deeper than the ones in the
middle of the 2 x 4. Then slip some bricks or cement blocks under the cut
sections of two of the 2 x 4s, and bend them into parabolas, roughly, so
that when the uncut straight length of each 2 x 4 is resting flat on the
ground, the cut curved part is sitting 1 - 3' above the ground. You may
have to get some people (or a car) to stand on top of the 2 x 4s to make
this curve, or you may have to make the saw cuts a bit deeper, but don't
make the cuts any deeper than you have to...

(This is not the way that people usually build houses :-)

Then, using some 2" deck screws, screw some thin (1/4"?) exterior plywood or
exterior flakeboard to the concave surface, on 4' centers, keeping the 2 x4s
curved. When you are done, you will have two 16' 2 x 4s connected by two
sheets of plywood (or Thermo-Ply if you can find any), with the plywood
screwed onto half of the width of the short edge of each 2 x 4, ie 3/4"
of each short edge of each 2 x 4. The plywood will thus be supported on
4' centers.

Paint the inside surface of each piece of plywood white. Make another one
of these curved 4' x 16' panels, with the same shape. Then attach the 4'
edge of one panel to the NE corner of the 16' long north wall with a bolt,
so it can hinge up, measure over exactly 4' and attach the other panel in
the same way. And bolt another curved 2 x 4 to the NW corner of the
foundation. Then nail a 16' 2 x 4 ridge beam flat along the upper ends
of the 5 2 x 4s, and screw on 4 more sheets of plywood to the underside,
between the two panels, to make two more panels. Fill up the space between
the plywood and the top edges of the 2 x 4s with leaves or straw or beadboard
or some leftover foam peanut packing material, staple a layer of poly film
over that, using batten tape, and tilt up the north wall, and attach the
ridge beam to the 2 x 4s of the south wall at the peak, somehow, as you stand
on an orchard ladder. A vent at the top would be nice, with a door to close
it somehow in winter time.

>in the fall, we're planning on 55 gallon drums of water in the back

Sounds good, under the benches. Perhaps with a solar powered fan at the top
to blow down some warm air through a poly film duct to the space under the
benches, with a poly film skirt around the drums to make a solar closet. 

>and Dynaglas on the other 3 walls...

Sounds good...

Nick



From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:18:44 EDT 1995
Article: 7011 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!btnet!uunet!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Brazilian Ethanol
Message-ID: <515.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 04:45:25 GMT
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Brazilian Ethanol


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:18:45 EDT 1995
Article: 7012 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1
Message-ID: <547.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: **population/energy:hidden facts#1


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:18:46 EDT 1995
Article: 7013 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Message-ID: <602.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?


From Post_Office@ieaust.org.au Mon May 29 22:18:47 EDT 1995
Article: 7014 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Post Office <Post_Office@ieaust.org.au>
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Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NDN: Re: PV and hot air wind gens
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Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Paul I. Turvey (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

NDN: Re: PV and hot air wind gens


From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:18:48 EDT 1995
Article: 7015 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BHw1.FuL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <6019.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:07:13 GMT
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In article <6019.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>You wrote:
>>
>>In article <27655.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>,
>>Will Stewart  <AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>
>>>There are already hundreds of garages in typical American large cities.
>>>All that's needed is the addition of charging units.  These could be
>>>overhead in unused space.  You make this seem insurmountable, for some
>>>reason...
>>
>>Your "all that's needed" contains the requirement for whole new
>>industries.
>
>Battery chargers a whole new industry?  Do you still have stock
>in buggy whip manufacturers?  :)

I'm going to call you an ignoramus here, because that's basically what
you call me below.

We're not talking about just a battery charger. We're talkign about
battery chargers so foolproof any idiot can drive up to it in a garage
and use it. And it's got to be designed to accurately bill the correct
person. Furthermore, it's got to be able to defeat the efforts of
people to use it without being billed, or getting their billing sent to
another person.

On top of that, it's going to require the manufacture of a
whole raft of these things. That require design and tooling that simply
doesn't exist now.


[...]

>Scratch? You mean no one builds batteries today?  What about the market in home
>computers, we had to build that from scratch, didn't we?  I don't see the
>reasoning behind your hesitation or concern.

And look what happened to that home computer market the first time
around (are you old enough to remember the first time around?)

[...]

>I have a battery charger in my basement.  I have a degree in electromechanical
>engineering and KNOW that the technology to charge batteries is simple and low
>tech.  No challenge, gradual capitalization.  If you have further disagreement
>with this, then provide supporting engineering and economic analysis, with
>reasonable assumptions.

And I have a degree in Physics, along with a decade of experience as a
manufacturing engineer, and tool and machine design engineer, for
General Motors, Hughes Aircraft, Rolls-Royce (jet engines, not cars),
and I'm telling you it ain't that easy.

[...]

>Who replaced the horse drawn carriages?  Who replaces broken down buildings?
>Who replaces old cars?  Who provides that parking lots for parking cars?  Who
>provides replacement gasoline for automobiles?

Horse drawn carriages were rep[laced by the car. It was invented in the
1880s. It did no replaceing to speak of for over 30 years, until Ford
finally developed a very high production assembly line to reduce the
cost of cars.

>>You sound like the kind of person who thinks getting rid of shit is
>>easy: you just flush the toilet.
>
>This is becoming a personal attack; unless you have something intelligent to
>share, I am ending all discourse with you.

I expect you are saying this becasue I used shit for an example. If I
had said you sound like the kind of person who thinks getting gasoline
is easy, you just turn on the pump and pay the clerk, you probably
would not have considered it all that personal. But I consider shit the
epitome of something that takes a lot of money, infrastructure and
engineering to get rid of, but few people realize just how much.

>>And you know absolutely nothing about the actual engineering,
>>manufacturing and construction requirements such a changeover will
>>require.
>
>No, I'm just not afraid of the change.
>
>>Just start working backward from such a commercial garage
>>recharger. There's the wiring, the new transformers, enlarged or new
>>substations. In fact, if you work out the amount of electrical
>>gereating capacity to replace the gasoline cars in the Los Angeles
>>Basin, you are looking at a requirement for several new generating
>>stations.

>The demand would not occur overnight.  If it did, then there would be
>a problem.

> Right now, the law calls for a 2% market in EVs.  Consider that in your
>pondereings.

Let's wait and see what actually happens. I do not believe that there
are enough people whw will actually want the EVs for the goal to be
reached. You can force the manufacturers to make them, but you can't
force people to buy them. But we shall see. Perhaps you are right.

>>Eventually something like EVs will probably be required. No matter how
>>optimistic we are, eventually teh oil will run out, or at least become
>>scarce enough to make it too expensive to use for personal
>>transportation. But any changeover form oil will require a rahter
>>extensive change in style of life .
>
>It all depends upon the viewpoint of the individual.  I don't see extensive
>lifestyle changes, especially with innovations in technology.

Well, for one thing, you probably won't be able to hop in the ol' EV
and head down the road from SF to LA. 


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:49 EDT 1995
Article: 7016 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Winfield <winfield@CPCUG.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <13066.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:11:14 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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> Piezo electric power is transferred to the parcel house's Eko-powerbus
> which is embedded in the home's eco-floor.  The power--very little
> energy is produced--is used to run the eco-micropower-fans and the super

well, the piezo crystals elec gen, albiet small, might be enuf if folks
can get nanotech further developed. (i am a devote' of Eric Drexler's
"Engines of creation" and "molecular nanotech"
i am >>>not<<< a fan of pyramid power, critters from Arcturus (or whheerever)
<grin>
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:50 EDT 1995
Article: 7017 of alt.energy.renewable
From: Robert Winfield <winfield@CPCUG.ORG>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: semi-perpetual motion
Message-ID: <13712.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:19:53 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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> >I believe that J Eyer and Tom Gray have overlooked the fact that vehicles
> >are pulled downhill by gravity - a free energy source.
>
> You're joking, right? You really do know that all you're getting is the
> energy it took to get up the hill, right?
>
to summerize thermodynamics
1) You can't win
2) You can't break even
3) You can't get out of the game.

#2 is applicable in returning energy by downhill coasting
<g>
Re: semi-perpetual motion                                                    R


From AE%SJSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 29 22:18:51 EDT 1995
Article: 7018 of alt.energy.renewable
From: "R.Hales" <R.Hales@cranfield.ac.uk>
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.graphics.cornell.edu!pcg-gw!usenet
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Request:where to study RE?
Message-ID: <13845.usenet@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 11:21:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@Graphics.Cornell.edu
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Peter (hopirap?) from Hong Kong SuperNET requested

>I am looking for schools,institutes,universities that you might recommend for
>studying Renewable energy technologies and International Development. I would
>like to do a masters degree. I am searching, preferably for a European
>institution, but I am also interested in other locations as well (the US,
>naturally).

In the U.K. there are ten renewable energy masters courses that I know about, at
eight different universities ( six in England:  Cranfield, Loughborough,
Reading, Sussex, Sunderland, Salford;  and two in Scotland: Strathclyde, Glasgow
Caledonian )  Have a look at my web page for contact addresses. I'm not saying
which of them I recommend though.  The choice, as they say, is yours.

>Please reply to my email address directly.

Your email address did not completely come through with your message so I can
only reply to the list.

...............................................................................
 .
 .

Richard L. Hales                               Email  r.hales@cranfield.ac.uk
Wind Turbine Research Group                    Telephone +44 - (0)1234 754640
Cranfield University    U.K.                         Fax +44 - (0)1234 750728
World Wide Web URL                   http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sme/ppa/wind/
Re: Request:where to study RE?                                               R


From af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon May 29 22:18:52 EDT 1995
Article: 7019 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: af017@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Are PVs as cheap as they should be?
Message-ID: <D96IAq.H1M@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: af017@freenet2.carleton.ca (David R. Smith)
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 09:28:02 GMT
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Conspiracy from Oil Companies??
Don't be silly, just cause they rigged the whole 70s oil
shortage and got away with it......
Naaaa.....why would companies which make billions in the
oil industry be concerened about loss of profits and jobs
>from  PV or wind energy?
Not a chance, bud.
Any more questions?
good.

by the way, PV are currently being made very cheaply in
places like mainland China and India.



From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:18:53 EDT 1995
Article: 7021 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BI3t.G9L@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <3q3pvl$eku@philos.philosys.de> <NEWTNews.16619.801554729.tonyc@tonyc.144volts.com> <801559989snz@mold.demon.co.uk>
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In article <801559989snz@mold.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Graham Thomas  <Peter@mold.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

>A second question. How many vehicles in total operate in California
>Edison's supply area? Bet its more than 200,000.

It's probably close to 10,000,000, maybe more. That 200K is a drpo in
the bucket, hobbyist stuff, and I'm not a bit surprised SoCalEdison
could handle it.

But replacement of a significant percentage of those ten million is
another story altogether.


-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From hatunen@netcom.com Mon May 29 22:18:54 EDT 1995
Article: 7022 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: water pump question
Message-ID: <hatunenD9BIHt.Gy2@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
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Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:20:17 GMT
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In article <3q8rl6$ilo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
SarahS4151 <sarahs4151@aol.com> wrote:
>hello
>what a perfect time to find this newsgroup!!
>
>so here's the problem
>we just bought a piece of property with a FANTASTIC spring. the problem is
>it is at the bottom of the property.
>first we thought we could get a pump run by solar, any ideas? the spring
>runs 
>possibly 5 gpm.
>
>then today i thought of another idea.
>
> a little creek runs past the property near the spring (they connect a bit
>farther down). maybe i could put a paddle wheel in the creek to run a
>rocker to run a pump??

You don't say what part of the country you are in, and that could
affect the consequences of the answers to thess question: is the stream
on your property? Would you have to build a small dam on the stream,
and if so, is it an ecologically important stream, such as a salmon
run? 

What total head is required to get the water from the bottom of the
well to your house/storage tank? It could take a lot more wter wheel
than you think.

>does this sound feasible? we need to pump at least 50 ft up to a tank to
>feed the house, garden, etc with some pressure.

Technicaly, it can be done. But fesibility is an economic question.

[...]

>sarah
>as far west as the internet gets on the continental u s

Oops. Answers that question to some extent. Is it a salmon run?



-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************



From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Mon May 29 22:18:55 EDT 1995
Article: 7023 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Danish off-shore wind farms
Date: 29 May 1995 02:51:44 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
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I just read the front page of the Danish magazine "Ingenioren" (The Danish
Engineering Weekly), dated May 12., 1995.

The ministry of ecology and the ministry of energy, have come out with a
report about off-shore wind-parks. They suggest four locations, with room
for a total of 7000 windmills, each capable of producing 1 MW. They expect
the to be about $2500 -  $2600 per installed kW capacity, whicvh should
produce electricity for around 10 cents/kWh.

They mention that experience with the only existing off-shore wind-park
(11 mills, each 450 kW) shows that off-shore installations will have
production prices comparable to poor landbased locations. The draw of the
off-shore sites is then primarily lack of sufficinet locations on-shore.
The prices for good on-shore locations are now comparable to those produced
by the convetional coal-based power plants in the country. (note that Danish
environmental standards, and fuel taxes, are higher than most other countries).


-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid)    E-mail: hansen+@osu.edu
Computer Specialist,    The Ohio State University
There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the earth as if it was 
a business in liquidation.  -- Herman Daly, quoted in "Earth in the Balance"


From hbphi002@huey.csun.edu Mon May 29 22:18:56 EDT 1995
Article: 7024 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: hbphi002@huey.csun.edu (joseph oberlander)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars
Date: 26 May 1995 00:34:37 GMT
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There is a very easy way to do all of this, but it isn't cheap.

Use a giant flywheel.

Saves on space, no 800lb of batteries to store or hulk around, has the
ability to dump 30Kwh in the required time(actually in a few ms, in
theory), can be slowly recharged overnight by a generator, power lines, or
even a simple diesel engine in emergencies.

Building huge flywheels for energy storage is easy to do, and is time and
space-efficient.  No employees to pay, and you just have to get it checked
about once a month to make sure it is in good shape.(Not to mention the
jobs created for all the inspectors)

The only problem would be in the case of an earthquake or something that
caused it to fail, but it would be built below ground to minimize
damage.(probably less than a gas line rupturing, which happened hundreds
of times when we had the last huge earthquake here, with no loss of life.)

Joe



From tonyc@sna.com Mon May 29 22:18:58 EDT 1995
Article: 7025 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: tonyc@sna.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car Talk
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 15:35:02 PDT
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Donna,

Don't be a dreamer !

If you fit the EV profile of driving 50-75 miles per day (or less)
for 90% of your driving, then seriously think about getting 
an EV (I do and am).  This will help push the technology by 
helping to create the market and to help reduce pollution and 
our dependence on foreign oil.

If your really interested in seeing alot of EV related talk
>from  those in the business and others who are really involved 
with the electric vehicle, then sign onto the EV Discussion List.

The list is only available by e-mail, so you must sign up for it.

To do that send e-mail to - listserv@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu
then in the body of the message type - subscribe ev your name

That's it.  Then to send mail to the people on the list for all
to see, you will send your email to - ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu

Good luck.

Tony Cygan
tonyc@sna.com




From london@sunSITE.unc.edu Mon May 29 22:18:59 EDT 1995
Article: 7026 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Web/URL for Home Power Magazine sought
Date: 30 May 1995 02:24:54 GMT
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This document (GUIDE) is the April 21, 1995 update of:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/GUIDE
For more information contact Lawrence London, london@sunSITE.unc.edu.

____________________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Accessing FAQs and Selected Information Resources at sunSITE.unc.edu
____________________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------

World Wide Web (lynx available via telnet for vt100 users)
 WWW URL info:
  http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/Gateway_to_Archives.html
  http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/Rec.Gardens-FAQs.html
  http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/Herb_Archives.html
 GOPHER URL info:
  URL for sustainable agriculture is:
  gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture
/
         [add gardening/gardening-faqs/ to the path for the rec.gardens FAQs]
  URL for rural skills is:
  gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills/
  URL for energy resources is:
  gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/ener
gy-resources/
----->  [Home Power Magazine archives are here]
  URL for alternative healthcare is:
  gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/
  URL for pesticide education is:
  gopher://sunsite.unc.edu/11/.pub/academic/environment/pesticide-education/
 FTP URL info:
  file://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/
       [add gardening/gardening-faqs/ to the path for the rec.gardens FAQs]
  file://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills/
  file://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/
       [the herb archives are here]
  file://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-res
ources/
----->  [Home Power Magazine archives are here]
  file://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/environment/pesticide-education/

Anonymous FTP:
  ftp sunSITE.unc.edu
  Login: anonymous
  Password: (enter your Internet e-mail ID)
  cd pub/academic
    cd agriculture/sustainable_agriculture
      cd gardening/gardening-faqs
  cd pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills
  cd pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare
    cd herbs
  cd pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources
----->  [Home Power Magazine archives are here]
  cd pub/academic/environment/pesticide-education

WAIS (available via telnet, follow login instructions)

Ftpmail (Send e-mail to ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu for help file on ftpmail usage)

Gopher: (gopher sunSITE.unc.edu)
The Worlds of sunSITE
  Sustainable Agriculture Information
    gardening
      gardening-faqs
  links to:
    Rural Skills: etc.
    Alternative Energy
----->  [Home Power Magazine archives are here]
    Alternative Healthcare
    Pesticide Education
    - other Gopher sites with ag/gardening information

The Worlds of SunSITE
  browse sunSITE archives
    academic
      agriculture
        sustainable_agriculture
          gardening
            gardening-faqs
        rural-skills

The Worlds of sunSITE
  browse sunSITE archives
    academic
      environment
        alternative energy
          energy-resources
----->  [Home Power Magazine archives are here]
        pesticide-education

The Worlds of sunSITE
  browse sunSITE archives
    academic
      medicine
        alternative healthcare
          herbs

__________________
------------------
About the Archives
__________________
------------------

Newsgroup, mailing-list, newsletter archives/documents/FAQs on
sustainable agriculture, permaculture, IPM, landscaping, gardening,
farming, rural skills, horticulture, metalworking, woodworking, weather,
housebuilding, food, cooking, nutrition, ecology, environment, pesticide
education, health-safety-welfare, beekeeping, food preservation,
alternative: healthcare, energy, architecture, housing, communities
and many other related topics.

Partial list of topics
----------------------
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guides to Internet agriculture/healthcare/environment/biology resources
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