Subject: Re: Electric Cars

From: Will Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 12:01:39 GMT

You wrote:
>
>In article <[email-masked]>,
>Will Stewart  <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>>There are already hundreds of garages in typical American large cities.
>>All that's needed is the addition of charging units.  These could be
>>overhead in unused space.  You make this seem insurmountable, for some
>>reason...
>
>Your "all that's needed" contains the requirement for whole new
>industries.

Battery chargers a whole new industry?  Do you still have stock
in buggy whip manufacturers?  :)

>>>In other words, the use of EVs requires a major remake of our
>>>infrastructure.
>>
>>You've really taken a large step here.  Perhaps you can detail what
>>infrastructure remakes are really necessary, not just some worst possible
>>engineering solution.
>
>You just haven't really thought it through. Forget for now that a major
>industry comparable to the oil industry would have to built from
>scratch just to manufacture (and dispose of)  the batteries.

Scratch? You mean no one builds batteries today?  What about the market in home
computers, we had to build that from scratch, didn't we?  I don't see the
reasoning behind your hesitation or concern.

>For instance, you said earlier that eight cars could feed off one
>charger. But that's not true. Each battery would have to have its own
>controller; what you mean is that eight chargers could be put in one
>box. But then you have to reach the car. Extension cords?

Yes, a mature technology.  If the charger is overhead, then the extenstion cords

could be pulled from a spring-loaded wind up reel and plugged in directly.

>>> And this requires a major capitalization. Who is going
>>>to provide this capitalization? Are you suggesting the state/government
>>>should do this?
>>
>>The marketplace is already paying for capital expenditures for gasoline
>>powered equipment that breaks down and has to be replaced.  The gradual
>>replacement of that equipment with EV equipment does not entail a sharp
>>capital rampup.
>
>Oh, yes it does. Even the required charging equipment does not yet
>exist. This, in itself, would be a major engineering challenge
>requiring a considerable capital expenditure, not to mention a lot of
>R&D to develop a workable system.

I have a battery charger in my basement.  I have a degree in electromechanical
engineering and KNOW that the technology to charge batteries is simple and low
tech.  No challenge, gradual capitalization.  If you have further disagreement
with this, then provide supporting engineering and economic analysis, with
reasonable assumptions.

>Calling for the "gradual replacement of [gasoline powered] is facile
>and simplistic. Who, specifically, is going to do the replacing? How?

Who replaced the horse drawn carriages?  Who replaces broken down buildings?
Who replaces old cars?  Who provides that parking lots for parking cars?  Who
provides replacement gasoline for automobiles?

>You sound like the kind of person who thinks getting rid of shit is
>easy: you just flush the toilet.

This is becoming a personal attack; unless you have something intelligent to
share, I am ending all discourse with you.

>And you know absolutely nothing about the actual engineering,
>manufacturing and construction requirements such a changeover will
>require.

No, I'm just not afraid of the change.

>Just start working backward from such a commercial garage
>recharger. There's the wiring, the new transformers, enlarged or new
>substations. In fact, if you work out the amount of electrical
>gereating capacity to replace the gasoline cars in the Los Angeles
>Basin, you are looking at a requirement for several new generating
>stations.

The demand would not occur overnight.  If it did, then there would be a problem.

 Right now, the law calls for a 2% market in EVs.  Consider that in your
pondereings.

>Eventually something like EVs will probably be required. No matter how
>optimistic we are, eventually teh oil will run out, or at least become
>scarce enough to make it too expensive to use for personal
>transportation. But any changeover form oil will require a rahter
>extensive change in style of life .

It all depends upon the viewpoint of the individual.  I don't see extensive
lifestyle changes, especially with innovations in technology.

Will Stewart
Re: Electric Cars

---

From: [email-masked] (DaveHatunen)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:07:13 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>in buggy whip manufacturers?  :)

I'm going to call you an ignoramus here, because that's basically what
you call me below.

We're not talking about just a battery charger. We're talkign about
battery chargers so foolproof any idiot can drive up to it in a garage
and use it. And it's got to be designed to accurately bill the correct
person. Furthermore, it's got to be able to defeat the efforts of
people to use it without being billed, or getting their billing sent to
another person.

On top of that, it's going to require the manufacture of a
whole raft of these things. That require design and tooling that simply
doesn't exist now.

[...]

>reasoning behind your hesitation or concern.

And look what happened to that home computer market the first time
around (are you old enough to remember the first time around?)

[...]

>with this, then provide supporting engineering and economic analysis, with

And I have a degree in Physics, along with a decade of experience as a
manufacturing engineer, and tool and machine design engineer, for
General Motors, Hughes Aircraft, Rolls-Royce (jet engines, not cars),
and I'm telling you it ain't that easy.

[...]

>provides replacement gasoline for automobiles?

Horse drawn carriages were rep[laced by the car. It was invented in the
1880s. It did no replaceing to speak of for over 30 years, until Ford
finally developed a very high production assembly line to reduce the
cost of cars.

>share, I am ending all discourse with you.

I expect you are saying this becasue I used shit for an example. If I
had said you sound like the kind of person who thinks getting gasoline
is easy, you just turn on the pump and pay the clerk, you probably
would not have considered it all that personal. But I consider shit the
epitome of something that takes a lot of money, infrastructure and
engineering to get rid of, but few people realize just how much.

> Right now, the law calls for a 2% market in EVs.  Consider that in your

Let's wait and see what actually happens. I do not believe that there
are enough people whw will actually want the EVs for the goal to be
reached. You can force the manufacturers to make them, but you can't
force people to buy them. But we shall see. Perhaps you are right.

>lifestyle changes, especially with innovations in technology.

Well, for one thing, you probably won't be able to hop in the ol' EV
and head down the road from SF to LA. 

-- 

    ********** DAVE HATUNEN ([email-masked]) **********
    *     Daly City California: almost San Francisco      *
    *   but with parking and lower car insurance rates    *
    *******************************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (DaveHatunen)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 02:07:13 GMT

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