From vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov Fri Aug  5 10:09:52 EDT 1994
Article: 562 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!air16.larc.nasa.gov!vac
From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Additives; Beware!
Date: 28 Jul 1994 21:45:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
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|> -<On 07-01-94  22:22, while looking for dry land
|> -<Bill Basford said to All:
|> 
|>  BB> Speaking of lubricants for fuel efficiency, has anyone on this
|>  BB> conference had any experience with those Teflon oil additives that
|>  BB> promise to reduce engine friction, prolong engine life and improve
|>  BB> fuel mileage?
|> 

Is That Additive Really A Negative?
Article and Photos by Fred Rau
ROAD RIDER/August 1992/Pg 15

   Information for this article was compiled from reports and studies by
the University of Nevada Desert Research Center, DuPont Chemical Company,
Avco Lycoming (aircraft engine manufacturers), North Dakota State
University, Briggs and Stratton (engine manufacturers), the University of
Utah Engineering Experiment Station, California State Polytechnic College
and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Lewis Research
Center.

   Road Rider does not claim to have all the answers. Nor do we care to
presume to tell you what to do. We have simply tried to provide you with
all the information we were able to dredge up on this subject, in hopes
it will help you in making your own, informed decision.

You Can't Tell The Players Without A Program

   On starting this project, we set out to find as many different oil
additives as we could buy. That turned out to be a mistake. There were
simply too many avail able! At the very first auto parts store we
visited, there were over two dozen different brand names available. By
the end of the day, we had identified over 40 different oil additives for
sale and realized we needed to rethink our strategy.
   First of all, we found that if we checked the fine print on the
packages, quite a number of the additives came from the same
manufacturer. Also, we began to notice that the additives could be
separated into basic "groups" that seemed to carry approximately the same
ingredients and the same promises.
   In the end, we divided our additives into four basic groups and
purchased at least three brands from three different manufacturers for
each group. We defined our four groups this way:
   1.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with PTFE (Teflon TM) added.
   2.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
added.
   3.) Products containing (as near as we could determine) much the same
additives as are already found in most major brands of engine oil, though
in different quantities and combinations.
   4.) Products made up primarily of solvents and/or detergents.
   There may be some differences in chemical makeup within groups, but
that is impossible to tell since the additive manufacturers refuse to
list the specific ingredients of their products. We will discuss each
group individually.

 The PTFE Mystery

   Currently, the most common and popular oil additives on the market are
those that contain PTFE powders suspended in a regular, over-the-counter
type, 50-rated petroleum or synthetic engine oil. PTFE is the common
abbreviation used for Polytetrafloeraethylene, more commonly known by the
trade name "Teflon," which is a registered trademark of the DuPont
Chemical Corporation. Among those oil additives we have identified as
containing PTFE are: Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Lubrilon, Microlon, Matrix,
Petrolon (same company as Slick 50), QMl, and T-Plus (K-Mart). There are
probably many more names in use on many more products using PTFE. We have
found that oil additive makers like to market their products under a
multitude of "private brand" names.
   While some of these products may contain other additives in addition
to PTFE, all seem to rely on the PTFE as their primary active ingredient
and all, without exception, do not list what other ingredients they may
contain.
   Though they have gained rather wide acceptance among the motoring
public, oil additives containing PTFE have also garnered their share of
critics among experts in the field of lubrication. By far the most
damning testimonial against these products originally came from the
DuPont Chemical Corporation, inventor of PTFE and holder of the patents
and trademarks for Teflon. In a statement issued about ten years ago,
DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist, J.F. Imbalzano said,
"Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for
internal combustion engines."
  At the time, DuPont threatened legal action against anyone who used
the name "Teflon" on any oil product destined for use in an internal
combustion engine, and refused to sell its PTFE powders to any one who
intended to use them for such purposes.
   After a flurry of lawsuits from oil additive makers, claiming DuPont
could not prove that PTFE was harmful to engines, DuPont was forced to
once again begin selling their PTFE to the additive producers. The
additive makers like to claim this is some kind of "proof' that their
products work, when in fact it is nothing more than proof that the
American legal ethic of "innocent until proven guilty" is still alive and
well. The decision against DuPont involved what is called "restraint of
trade." You can't refuse to sell a product to someone just because there
is a possibility they might use it for a purpose other than what you
intended it for.
   It should be noted that DuPont's official position on the use of PTFE
in engine oils remains carefully aloof and noncommittal, for obvious
legal reasons. DuPont states that though they sell PTFE to oil additive
producers, they have "no proof of the validity of the additive makers'
claims." They further state that they have "no knowledge of any advantage
gained through the use of PTFE in engine oil."
   Fear of potential lawsuits for possible misrepresentation of a product
seem to run much higher among those with the most to lose.
   After DuPont's decision and attempt to halt the use of PTFE in engine
oils, several of the oil additive companies simply went elsewhere for
their PTFE powders, such as purchasing them in other countries. In some
cases, they disguise or hype their PTFE as being something different or
special by listing it under one of their own tradenames. That doesn't
change the fact that it is still PTFE.
   In addition, there is some evidence that certain supplies of PTFE
powders (from manufacturers other than DuPont) are of a cruder version
than the original, made with larger sized flakes that are more likely to
"settle out" in your oil or clog up your filters. One fairly good
indication that a product contains this kind of PTFE is if the
instructions for its use advise you to "shake well before using." It only
stands to reason that if the manufacturer knows the solids in his product
will settle to the bottom of a container while sitting on a shelf, the
same thing is going to hap pen inside your engine when it is left idle
for any period of time.
   The problem with putting PTFE in your oil, as explained to us by
several industry experts, is that PTFE is a solid. The additive makers
claim this solid "coats" the moving parts in an engine (though that is
far from being scientifically proven). Slick 50 is currently both the
most aggressive advertiser and the most popular seller, with claims of
over 14 million treatments sold. However, such solids seem even more
inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After
all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a
cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in
places with low pressures and virtually no friction.
   This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives
containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said
in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked
at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental
effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a
dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is
actually depriving parts of lubricant."
   Remember, PTFE in oil additives is a suspended solid. Now think about
why you have an oil filter on your engine. To remove suspended solids,
right? Right. Therefore it would seem to follow that if your oil filter
is doing its job, it will collect as much of the PTFE as possible, as
quickly as possible. This can result in a clogged oil filter and
decreased oil pres sure throughout your engine.
   In response to our inquiries about this sort of problem, several of
the PTFE pushers responded that their particulates were of a sub-micron
size, capable of passing through an ordinary oil filter unrestricted.
This certainly sounds good, and may in some cases actually be true, but
it makes little difference when you know the rest of the story. You see,
PTFE has other qualities besides being a friction reducer: It expands
radically when exposed to heat. So even if those particles are small
enough to pass through your filter when you purchase them, they very well
may not be when your engine reaches normal operating temperature.
   Here again, the' scientific evidence seems to support this, as in
tests conducted by researchers at the University of Utah Engineering
Experiment Station involving Petrolon additive with PTFE.
   The Petrolon test report states, "There was a pressure drop across the
oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." In
addition, oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after using
the treatment, indicating that engine wear didn't go down - it appeared
to shoot up.
   This particular report was paid for by Petrolon (marketers of Slick
50), and was not all bad news for their products. The tests, conducted on
a Chevrolet six-cylinder automobile engine, showed that after treatment
with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1
percent. Also, output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1
percent, and fuel economy improved from 11.8 percent under light load to
3.8 percent under heavy load.
   These are the kind of results an aggressive marketing company like
Petrolon can really sink their teeth into. If we only reported the
results in the last paragraph to you, you'd be inclined to think Slick 50
was indeed a magic engine elixir. What you have to keep in mind is that
often times the benefits (like increased horse power and fuel economy)
may be out weighed by some serious drawbacks (like the indications of
reduced oil pressure and increased wear rate).

The Plot Thickens
   Just as we were about to go to press with this article, we were
contacted by the public relations firm of Trent and Company, an outfit
with a prestigious address in the Empire State Building, New York. They
advised us they were working for a company called QMI out of Lakeland,
Florida, that was marketing a "technological breakthrough" product in oil
additives. Naturally, we asked them to send us all pertinent information,
including any testing and research data.
   What we got was pretty much what we expected. QMI's oil additive,
according to their press release, uses "ten times more PTFE resins than
its closest competitor." Using the "unique SX-6000 formula," they say
they are the only company to use "aqueous dispersion resin which means
the microns (particle sizes) are extensively smaller and can penetrate
tight areas." This, they claim, "completely eliminates the problem of
clogged filters and oil passages."
   Intrigued by their press release, we set up a telephone interview with
their Vice-President of Technical Services, Mr. Owen Heatwole. Mr.
Heatwole's name was immediately recognized by us as one that had popped
in earlier research of this subject as a former employee of Petrolon, a
company whose name seems inextricably linked in some fashion or another
with virtually every PTFE-related additive maker in the country.
   Mr. Heatwole was a charming and persuasive talker with a knack for
avoiding direct answers as good as any seasoned politician. His glib
pitch for his product was the best we've ever heard, but when dissected
and pared down to the verifiable facts, it actually said very little.
   When we asked about the ingredients in QMI's treatments, we got almost
exactly the response we expected. Mr. Heatwole said he would "have to
avoid discussing specifics about the formula, for proprietary reasons."
   After telling us that QMI was being used by "a major oil company," a
"nuclear plant owned by a major corporation" and a "major engine
manufacturer," Mr. Heatwole followed up with, "Naturally, I can't reveal
their names - for proprietary reasons."
   He further claimed to have extensive testing and research data
available from a "major laboratory," proving conclusively how effective
QMI was. When we asked for the name of the lab, can you guess? Yup, "We
can't give out that information, for proprietary reasons."
   What QMI did give us was the typical "testimonials," though we must
admit theirs came from more recognizable sources than usual. They seem to
have won over the likes of both Team Kawasaki and Bobby Unser, who
evidently endorse and use QMI in their racing engines. Mr. Heatwole was
very proud of the fact that their product was being used in engines that
he himself admitted are "torn down and completely inspected on a weekly
basis." Of course, what he left out is that those same engines are almost
totally rebuilt every time they're torn down. So what does that prove in
terms of his product reducing wear and promoting engine longevity?
Virtually nothing.
   Mr. Heatwole declined to name the source of QMI's PTFE supply "for
proprietary reasons." He bragged that their product is sold under many
different private labels, but refused to identify those labels "for
proprietary reasons." When asked about the actual size of the PTFE
particles used in QMI, he claimed they were measured as "sub-micron in
size" by a "major motor laboratory" which he couldn't identify - you
guessed it - for "proprietary reasons."
   After about an hour of listening to "don't quote me on this," "I'll
have to deny that if you print it," and "I can't reveal that," we asked
Mr. Heatwole if there was something we could print. "Certainly," he said,
"Here's a good quote for you: 'The radical growth in technology has
overcome the problem areas associated with PTFE in the 1980s'"
   "Not bad," we said. Then we asked to whom we might attribute this gem
of wisdom. DuPont Chemical, perhaps?
   "Me," said Mr. Heatwole. "I said that."
   QMI's press releases like to quote the Guinness Book Of Records in
saying that PTFE is "The slickest substance known to man." Far be it from
us to take exception to the Guinness Book, but we doubt that PTFE is much
slicker than some of the people marketing it.

The Zinc Question
   The latest "miracle ingredient" in oil additives, attempting to usurp
PTFE's cure-all throne, is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which we will
refer to here after as simply "zinc."
   Purveyors of the new zinc-related products claim they can prove
absolute superiority over the PTFE-related products. Naturally, the PTFE
crowd claim exactly the same, in reverse.
   Zinc is contained as part of the standard additive package in
virtually every major brand of engine oil sold today, varying from a low
volume of 0.10 per cent in brands such as Valvoline All Climate and
Chevron l5W-50, to a high volume of 0.20 percent in brands such as
Valvoline Race and Pennzoil GT Performance.
   Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear
additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically
blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc
in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal con
tact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating
conditions. However, if you race your bike, or occasionally play tag with
the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under
extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent
scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.
   However - and this is the important part to remember - available
research shows that more zinc does not give you more protection, it
merely prolongs the protection if the rate of metal-to-metal contact is
abnormally high or extended. So unless you plan on spending a couple of
hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to
your oil is usually a waste. Also, keep in mind that high zinc content
can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling.
   Among the products we found containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
were Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP
Engine Treatment With XEP2. The only reason we can easily identify the
additives with the new zinc compounds is that they are required to carry
a Federally mandated warning label indicating they contain a hazardous
substance. The zinc phosphate they contain is a known eye irritant,
capable of inflicting severe harm if it comes in contact with your eyes.
If you insist on using one of these products, please wear protective
goggles and exercise extreme caution.
   As we mentioned, organic zinc compounds are already found in virtually
every major brand of oil, both automotive and motorcycle. However, in
recent years the oil companies voluntarily reduced the amount of zinc
content in most of their products after research indicated the zinc was
responsible for premature deterioration and damage to catalytic
converters. Obviously this situation would not affect 99 percent of all
the motorcycles on the road - however, it could have been a factor with
the newer BMW converter - equipped bikes.
   Since the reduction in zinc content was implemented solely for the
protection of catalytic converters, it is possible that some motorcycles
might benefit from a slight increase in zinc content in their oils. This
has been taken into account by at least one oil company, Spectro, which
offers 0.02 to 0.03 percent more zinc compounds in its motorcycle oils
than in its automotive oils.
   Since Spectro (Golden 4 brand, in this case) is a synthetic blend
lubricant designed for extended drain intervals, this increase seems to
be wholly justified. Also, available research indicates that Spectro has,
in this case, achieved a sensible balance for extended application
without increasing the zinc content to the point that it is likely to
cause spark plug fouling or present a threat to converter-equipped BMW
models.
   It would appear that someone at Spectro did their homework.

Increased Standard Additives (More Is Not Necessarily Better)
   Though some additives may not contain anything harmful to your engine,
and even some things that could be beneficial, most experts still
recommend that you avoid their use. The reason for this is that your oil,
as purchased from one of the major oil companies, already contains a very
extensive additive package.
   This package is made up of numerous, specific additive components,
blended to achieve a specific formula that will meet the requirements of
your engine. Usually, at least several of these additives will be
synergistic. That is, they react mutually, in groups of two or more, to
create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or
adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective
effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more
of something that was already included in the initial package.
   If it helps, try to think of your oil like a cake recipe. Just because
the original recipe calls for two eggs (which makes for a very moist and
tasty cake), do you think adding four more eggs is going to make the cake
better? Of course not. You're going to upset the carefully calculated
balance of ingredients and magnify the effect the eggs have on the recipe
to the point that it ruins the entire cake. Adding more of a specific
additive already contained in your oil is likely to produce similar
results.
   This information should also be taken into account when adding to the
oil already in your bike or when mixing oils for any reason, such as
synthetic with petroleum. In these cases, always make sure the oils you
are putting together have the same rating (SA, SE, SC, etc.). This tells
you their additive packages are basically the same, or at least
compatible, and are less likely to upset the balance or counteract each
other.

Detergents And Solvents
   Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not
make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like
Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like
"quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine."
   Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed
to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be
flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83
percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and
isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of
standard mineral oil.
   In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of
what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of
leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they
are designed to strip away such things.
   All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up
your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is,
unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove
your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip
away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of
solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful
metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
   As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at
least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the
Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient
engine designs of the past two decades.

The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
   At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have
witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of
certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted
engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their
"miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop
it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine
would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the
effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of
the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we
saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be rid den around
the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing
demonstration - until you know the facts.
   Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and
Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a
similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new,
identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for
bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive
included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20
hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then
both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight
hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor
miracle."
   After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down
and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both
engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated
with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was
not evident on the untreated engine.
   This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil
additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in
the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil
flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and
particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been
reported as a major area of engine damage.

The Racing Perspective
   Among the most convincing testimonials in favor of oil additives are
those that come from professional racers or racing teams. As noted
previously, some of the oil additive products actually are capable of
producing less engine friction, better gas mileage and higher horsepower
out put. In the world of professional racing, the split-second advantage
that might be gained from using such a product could be the difference
between victory and defeat.
   Virtually all of the downside or detrimental effects attached to these
products are related to extended, long-term usage. For short-life,
high-revving, ultra-high performance engines designed to last no longer
than one racing season (or in some cases, one single race), the long-term
effects of oil additives need not even be considered.
   Racers also use special high-adhesion tires that give much better
traction and control than our normal street tires, but you certainly
wouldn't want to go touring on them, since they're designed to wear out
in several hundred (or less) miles. Just because certain oil additives
may be beneficial in a competitive context is no reason to believe they
would be equally beneficial in a touring context.

The Best of The Worst
   Not all engine oil additives are as potentially harmful as some of
those we have described here. However, the best that can be said of those
that have not proved to be harmful is that they haven't been proved to
offer any real benefits, either. In some cases, introducing an additive
with a compatible package of components to your oil in the right
proportion and at the right time can conceivably extend the life of your
oil. However, in every case we have studied it proves out that it would
actually have been cheaper to simply change the engine oil instead.
   In addition, recent new evidence has come to light that makes using
almost any additive a game of Russian Roulette. Since the additive
distributors do not list the ingredients contained within their products,
you never know for sure just what you are putting in your engine.
   Recent tests have shown that even some of the most inoffensive
additives contain products which, though harmless in their initial state,
convert to hydrofluoric acid when exposed to the temperatures inside a
firing cylinder. This acid is formed as part of the exhaust gases, and
though it is instantly expelled from your engine and seems to do it no
harm, the gases collect inside your exhaust system and eat away at your
mufflers from the inside out.

Whatever The Market Will Bear
   The pricing of oil additives seems to follow no particular pattern
whatsoever. Even among those products that seem to be almost identical,
chemically, retail prices covered an extremely wide range. For example:
   One 32-ounce bottle of Slick 50 (with PTFE) cost us $29.95 at a
discount house that listed the retail price as $59.95, while a 32-ounce
bottle of T-Plus (which claims to carry twice as much PTFE as the Slick
50) cost us only $15.88.
   A 32-ounce bottle of STP Engine Treatment (containing what they call
XEP2), which they claim they can prove "outperforms leading PTFE engine
treatments," cost us $17.97. Yet a can of K Mart Super Oil Treatment,
which listed the same zinc-derivative ingredient as that listed for the
XEP2, cost us a paltry $2.67.
   Industry experts estimate that the actual cost of producing most oil
additives is from one-tenth to one-twentieth of the asking retail price.
Certainly no additive manufacturer has come forward with any exotic,
high-cost ingredient or list of ingredients to dispute this claim. As an
interesting note along with this, back before there was so much
competition in the field to drive prices down, Petrolon (Slick 50) was
selling their PTFE products for as much as $400 per treatment! The words
"buyer beware" seem to take on very real significance when talking about
oil additives.
The Psychological Placebo
   You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why so
many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any other
number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for us - but
we go ahead and do them anyway.
   Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of us
hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have purchased
the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
   Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes with
thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing knowledge of
something just a bit better than everyone else.
   Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need we all
seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any shortage of
unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to believe that
there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help us lose weight,
grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our engines run longer and
better. I doubt that there's a one of us who hasn't fallen for one of
these at least once in our lifetimes. We just want it to be true so bad
that we can't help ourselves.

Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
   In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical print
advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied customer
stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine for 2 years and
50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better gas mileage than ever
before. I love this product and would recommend it to anyone."
   Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly used
to pro mote such things as miracle weight loss diets and astrology.
   Whenever I see one of these ads I am reminded of a stunt played out
several years ago by Allen Funt of "Candid Camera" that clearly
demonstrated the side of human nature that makes such advertising
possible.
   With cameras in full view, fake "product demonstrators" would offer
people passing through a grocery store the opportunity to taste-test a
"new soft drink." What the victims didn't know was that they were being
given a horrendous concoction of castor oil, garlic juice, tabasco sauce
and several other foul-tasting ingredients. After taking a nice, big
swallow, as instructed by the demonstrators, the unwitting victims
provided huge laughs for the audience by desperately trying to conceal
their anguish and disgust. Some literally turned away from the cameras
and spit the offending potion on the floor.
   The fascinating part came when about one out of four of the victims
would actually turn back to the cameras and proclaim the new drink was
"Great" or "Unique" or, in several cases, "One of the best things I've
ever tasted!" Go figure.
   The point is, compiling "personal testimonials" for a product is one
of the easiest things an advertising company can do - and one of the
safest, too. You see, as long as they are only expressing some one else's
personal opinion, they don't have to prove a thing! It's just an opinion,
and needs no basis in fact whatsoever.
   On the other hand, there has been documented, careful scientific
analysis done on numerous oil additives by accredited institutions and
researchers.
   For example:
   Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We
have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all
worthless."
   Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable
engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They
do not appear to offer any benefits."
   North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and
said in their report, "The theory sounds good - the only problem is that
the products simply don't work."
   And finally, Ed Hackett, chemist at the University of Nevada Desert
Research Center, says, "Oil additives should not be used. The oil
companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive pack age that
meets the vehicle's requirements. If you add anything to this oil you may
upset the balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification."
   Petrolon, Inc., of Houston, Texas, makers of Petrolon and producers of
at least a dozen other lubrication products containing PTFE, including
Slick 50 and Slick 30 Motorcycle Formula, claim that, "Multiple tests by
independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an
automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts.
Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50
percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone."
   Sounds pretty convincing, doesn't it?
   The problem is, Petrolon and the other oil additive companies that
claim "scientific evidence" from "independent laboratories," all refuse
to identify the laboratories that conducted the tests or the criteria
under which the tests were conducted. They claim they are "contractually
bound" by the laboratories to not reveal their identities.
   In addition, the claim of "50 percent less wear" has never been proven
on anything approaching a long-term basis. Typical examples used to
support the additive makers' claims involve engines run from 100 to 200
hours after treatment, during which time the amount of wear particles in
the oil decreased. While this has proven to be true in some cases, it has
also been proven that after 400 to 500 hours of running the test engines
invariably reverted to producing just as many wear particles as before
treatment, and in some cases, even more.
   No matter what the additive makers would like you to believe, nothing
has been proven to stop normal engine wear.
   You will note that all of the research facilities quoted in this
article are clearly identified. They have no problem with making their
findings public. You will also note that virtually all of their findings
about oil additives are negative. That's not because we wanted to give a
biased report against oil additives - it's because we couldn't find a
single laboratory, engine manufacturer or independent research facility
who would make a public claim, with their name attached to it, that any
of the additives were actually beneficial to an engine. The conclusion
seems inescapable.
   As a final note on advertising hype versus the real world, we saw a
television ad the other night for Slick 50 oil additive. The ad
encouraged people to buy their product on the basis of the fact that,
"Over 14 million Americans have tried Slick 50!" Great. We're sure you
could just as easily say, "Over 14 million Americans have smoked
cigarettes!"-but is that really any reason for you to try it? Of course
not, because you've seen the scientific evidence of the harm it can do.
The exact same principle applies here.

In Conclusion
   The major oil companies are some of the richest, most powerful and
aggressive corporations in world. They own multi-million dollar research
facilities manned by some of the best chemical engineers money can hire.
It is probably safe to say that any one of them has the capabilities and
resources at hand in marketing, distribution, advertising, research and
product development equal to 20 times that of any of the independent
additive companies. It therefore stands to reason that if any of these
additive products were actually capable of improving the capabilities of
engine lubricants, the major oil companies would have been able to
determine that and to find some way to cash in on it.
   Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or
endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
   In addition, all of the major vehicle and engine manufacturers spend
millions of dollars each year trying to increase the longevity of their
products, and millions more paying off warranty claims when their
products fail. Again, it only stands to reason that if they thought any
of these additives would increase the life or improve the performance of
their engines, they would be actively using and selling them - or at
least endorsing their use.
   Instead, many of them advise against the use of these additives and,
in some cases, threaten to void their warranty coverage if such things
are found to be used in their products.
   In any story of this nature, absolute "facts" are virtually impossible
to come by. Opinions abound. Evidence that points one direction or the
other is avail able, but has to be carefully ferreted out, and is not
always totally reliable or completely verifiable.
   In this environment, conclusions reached by known, knowledgeable
experts in the field must be given a certain amount of weight.
Conclusions reached by unknown, unidentifiable sources must be discounted
almost totally. That which is left must be weighed, one side against the
other, in an attempt to reach a "reasonable" conclusion.
   In the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of
evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known
and identifiable expert sources, including independent research
laboratories, state universities, major engine manufacturers, and even
NASA.
   Against this rather formidable barrage of scientific research,
additive makers offer not much more than their own claims of
effectiveness, plus questionable and totally unscientific personal
testimonials. Though the purveyors of these products state they have
studies from other independent laboratories supporting their claims, they
refuse to identify the labs or provide copies of the research. The only
test results they will share are those from their own testing
departments, which must, by their very nature, be taken with a rather
large grain of salt.

Sidebar: Synthetic Oils
   Whenever we talk about oil additives, the subject of synthetic oils
inevitably crops up. Actually, the tow subjects have very little to do
with each other, but since many riders seem to equate additives and
synthetics together in their minds, we will take a few lines just to
clear the air.
   Synthetic oils were originally developed for use in gas turbine
engines. In most cases they are capable of maintaining their viscosity
for longer periods of use and under much greater temperatures and
pressures than petroleum products. Commons synthetics used for engine
lubrication today are Polyalphaolefin (like Mobil 1) or Dibasic Organic
Esters (like AMSOIL). They are fully compatible with conventional oils
and can be mixed, providing their ratings match.
   Probably the best situation is a blend of synthetics and mineral oils,
such as Golden Spectro and AGIP Sint 2000. These products seem to offer
the best of both worlds in protection and extended service life. They may
cost considerably more than standard petroleum products, but they also
can be used for much longer periods between oil changes without losing
their protective capabilities.
   Synthetics and synthetic blends offer a wider range of protection than
standard petroleum products. However, it should be noted that this
extended range of protection reaches into an area of temperatures and
pressures virtually impossible to attain inside most motorcycle engines
and transmissions. In other words, if you use them, you are buying a sort
of "overkill protection." It's certainly not going to hurt anything -
it's just unnecessary. That is, unless it makes you feel better knowing
the extra protection is on board, in which case the added expense may be
well justified.
   As a basic rule of thumb, using the standard engine oil recommended by
your bike's manufacturer and changing it about every 3000 miles will
afford you all the protection you'll ever need. But if you feel better
knowing you have more protection than you need or, if you like the
extended service-life feature, there's certainly nothing wrong with using
a premium grade synthetic blend lubricant.
--










From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:54 EDT 1994
Article: 563 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Induction machines
Message-ID: <c9b_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 19 Jul 94 18:44:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Dunmyer told Earl Needham regarding YOUR CARBURETOR :

JD> It plain will not function at all without power being applied, at 
JD> least to start with; there's some discussion as to whether it might 
JD> continue to generate electricity once started.

You can get self-excitation of induction machines if you have enough 
capacitance on the system.  Evidently there may be enough residual flux 
left on the rotor to get the system rolling under some instances.

Seems like the wind power guys at DOE had put out some publications 
regarding this phenomena.  Obviously this can be the good news and the bad 
news depending on what you are trying to do.


---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * They earned it the old fashioned way, stock options.


From don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:09:55 EDT 1994
Article: 564 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!don.walli
From: don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us (don walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Jul 94 18:33:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Michigan Tech - RTC program
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dwalli@mtu.edu (don walli)
Date: 20 Jul 94 13:33:30 GMT

Everyone in this thread seems to have touched on, and subsequently
ignored,
what seems to be the most likely (most logical? maybe) solution for
this
whole process, and that's an overall systems approach. By that, I mean 
using a system of several different technologies to solve the problem
(in
this case, vehicular power).

Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
(assumed from water).
What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
modules? 
Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells, but
electrolysis
can happen at *very* low voltages, so really high power output is not 
absolutely essential. And even if your PV cells aren't highly
efficient--so
what??? The sun is still *free*. Ross hasn't figured out a way to bill
us for that one yet.

So now you have H2, and you're (rightly) concerned about the potential
output of an H2-powered IC engine. What about using a fuel cell
instead? Your waste
output (with the exception of the eventually-depleted catalyst) is very
low, 
and now you have electric power in your vehicle (or home, or
municipality, or whereever you set up the fuel cells. And, yes, the
fuel cell does introduce some more losses (as the affordable ones are
not all that efficient). However,I would think that those losses might
(*might*) be acceptable when
you consider that the overall system here does not require the use of
any non-renewable resources (in the generation of the fuel, anyway).

I have *not* worked out all the numbers here yet, as I'm just getting
into this whole idea. If anyone would care to go through the hassle, I
would be
overjoyed to work with you (provide any info I can find, clarify my
outline
above, &c.) on refining it.

And thanks for providing one of the best newsgroups I've read in a
long, long time.


||  Donald J. Walli     Rhetoric and Technical Communication  ||
||  dwalli@mtu.edu      Michigan Technological University     ||


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:56 EDT 1994
Article: 565 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <ca6_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 04:06:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James Neighbors
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> appliances in their house...  My question..  Is this even possible, and is
-> it a feasible idea?

Yes, No.

^..^


From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:57 EDT 1994
Article: 566 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hey Guys!
Message-ID: <cb9_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Jul 94 14:28:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Kenneth T. Cornelius
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Hey Guys!
 
> This is supposed to be about renewable enery, right?  What has gummed up 
> carburetors, ammeter shunts, and electric vehicles of all types got to do 
> with that?  Take it somewhere else, OK?

I don't know about that, the title listed here is "Alternative Energy/Home
Power".
I don't see a problem. (not that i am host).
Popeye

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:59 EDT 1994
Article: 567 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <cc2_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 13:51:34 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Phillip Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (12 Jul 94) Phillip Hill wrote to Ian Woofenden...

 PH> What I did before was to construct a pit in the ground and
 PH> place the generator in it. This is not just a pit but a
 PH> walkin cellar type thing. works really well, can hear it only
 PH> if you know it's there.

Sounds ideal. Only trouble here is that it would also require a sump
pump, since our water table is pretty high in the winter. And what
would happen if the battery power went out on the pump - just start
up the gen to charge <g>...

But thanks for the idea. Seems perfect for other applications, and I
could consider building a mound around my gen house if it weren't
positioned so close to other buildings.

Ian



... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:00 EDT 1994
Article: 568 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <cc3_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 13:55:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry D. Yuengel
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (17 Jul 94) Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...

 LD> > most everything else could be run on 12 volts. The parts
 LD> > would be cheap and 3 or 4 car batteries could hold enough
 LD> > power for when the wind is low. Do you know of anyone that
 LD> > has tried this?

 LD> I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

But they are a poor choice, compared to the DC compact fluorescents
that are out there.  The latter gives probably ten times as much
light (OK, I'm not being exact...) for the same power consumption.

And as others have said, car batteries are not made for the cycling
that happens in HP situations.

I'd really suggest that anyone interested in this sort of system
order as many of the AE catalogs advertised in HP as you can. There
is a lot being done, and you could save re-inventing too many
wheels. Many of the catalogs serve as system planning guides too and
have much educational material.

Ian



... Never assume malice when stupidity may be the answer.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:01 EDT 1994
Article: 569 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wind power/batteries
Message-ID: <cc4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 14:00:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (23 Jul 94) Tony Weeks wrote to Don Kulha...

 TW> Forgive me my lack of attention to the subject. I was more
 TW> interested in finding if using cheap alternators would work.
 TW> I know the difference between a car batter and a deep-cycle
 TW> battery. I used to have half interest in a auto battery shop
 TW> and we sold deep-cycle batteries but I've always thought of
 TW> them as another flavor of car batteries.

Forgive me my non-expertness, but I think that the "deep-cycle"
batteries that you sold *were* just another flavor of car battery,
and not true deep cycle batteries, such as the Trojan L-16 that Don
was talking about.

Better to buy from either an AE dealer, or a battery distributor who
knows stationary power systems. Not to knock your experience *too*
much, but auto battery people know what it takes to make a good auto
battery, but not necessarily a good AE system battery.



Ian



... noted Canadian comedian Don Cherry.....


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:02 EDT 1994
Article: 570 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <cc5_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 26 Jul 94 21:36:45 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (20 Jul 94) Tony Cygan wrote to Ian Woofenden...

 TC> I went into the Human Powered Fidonet echo can came up with
 TC> the following information -- Hope it helps...

Thanks. Good to know that conference is there. 

Makes me think that at some point it would be nice to have a listing
of echoes that are even tangentially connected to our topic here.

I'm not super interested in recumbant bikes, but have at times
wished that there were something that had the advantages of a car
(room for passengers, stuff, and weatherproof) but powered by the
occupants. 

If anyone knows of such a thing, I'm interested in hearing about it.



Ian



... That's not line noise--my modem's speaking in tongues!


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:03 EDT 1994
Article: 571 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-234-2-0!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: YOUR CARBURETOR
Message-ID: <cca_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 22:03:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Lewis Cosper
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >>  I'm familiar with how  you sync conventional alternators to an
 >>  existing AC source.
 > 
 > How does one do that?

Basically, they have light bulbs connected between the existing line and the
alternator. If the alternator is stopped, the bulbs will light up; as the
alternator comes up to speed, the bulbs start flickering, slower and slower.
When you get them to just go out, you throw the switch to parallel the
alternator and the line, then adjust the governor on the engine to pick up the
load. The bulbs must be rated at twice the voltage of the power system because
if the alternator and line are 180 degrees out of phase, the voltage will be
twice "normal".
 
Of course, if you have a cogenerator system like we have at work, the computer
just starts the "other" engine and puts it online for you. <<grin>>


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:05 EDT 1994
Article: 572 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 28 Jul 1994 16:01:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 60
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3192ps$qui@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>, rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
writes:

"I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS
an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it
continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it may
not)."

     I acknowledge a difference of definition here. To me you're still
doing the same old job of turning a turbine with a somethingorother fired
steam boiler, the source of which is producing some form of waste. The
difference is that this source is imminently more dangerous than most
others.
     I would have considered nuclear "alternative" a few decades ago when
the technology was still new - now it's more mainstream and less of an
"alternate." I will consider solar no longer an alternate when it is more
widely developed and distributed and producing a significant ammount of
our grid-power. Perhaps then we'll be seeking ways to harness planetary
movement or something similar and that will be our new "alternative"
energy source. Till then . . . 


"What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable. 
Theoretically,
nuclear wastes can be re-used.  However, we presently lack the technology
to do this."

     Thank you for that statement. Perhaps when we stop burrying dangerous
nuclear waste and can do something useful with it I'll be more inclined to
accept it.


"While this may cause you to jump for joy, keep in mind that it wasn't too
long ago that we lack the technology to turn on a light switch or perform
open-heart surgery."

     And they said we couldn't put a man on the moon either. Times are
changing and views need to change with the times.



"What I am trying to get across to you is that I think you need to be
more open-minded to other views.  The best solutions tend to come from
contributions from several minds, not just one."

     Hence the development of the Newsgroup. AER exists for AE-minded
people to share their experiences and ideas - not to debate the old
nuclear-vs.-solar debate (correct me if I'm wrong, Don). That was one of
the main things with Harry C.'s post that got me started on this whole
thing. I have had more than my share of nuclear thisandthat while I was in
college - if nothing, the experiments I did on plants proved to me that I
really DON'T want a nuclear plant anywhere near me.

     My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
nothing to do with them.

Shadowfax




From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:06 EDT 1994
Article: 573 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 28 Jul 1994 15:39:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3191gn$qih@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <CtM2uA.7o8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtM2uA.7o8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
: are getting is coming from the pro-nuclear groups. Not an unwarranted
: argument, just not one we're interested in. Nuclear IS NOT NOR WILL EVER
: BE and alternative energy source (keyword highlighted).
:            ^^^^^^^^

>OK I'll bite--
>
>   (1) who are "we"  (please don't speak for me, I have my own opinions
>                    /agenda/preferences/identity)

     "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 


  > (2) what is "alternative"? 

     What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
mainstream (yet).


Shadowfax



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:07 EDT 1994
Article: 574 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:10:49 GMT
References: <3191gn$qih@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 33
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MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:

:      "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
: are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
: share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
: latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 

Nope. Please don't put words in our mouths! We am very interested in
renewable energy futures. However we recognize that there are other factors
such as economics whihc need to be considered as well. We also have
a broad enough view to know that no energy source is without it's 
environmental (and other) concerns. We for instance realize that it takes
a tremendous amount of energy and noxious chemical processing to
create PV's, and that other methods (such as thermal conversion) might
be much more benign.

:   > (2) what is "alternative"? 

:      What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
: something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
: falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
: mainstream (yet).

Well, I guess that leaves out geothermal and hydro since they are very
much mainstream here in the pacific northwest. Solar is 'alternate' for the
moment but then I guess it won't be as soon as it becomes economical for
the utilities to switch. You're proposing that once solar becomes popular this
group will no longer be able to discuss it?  


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:08 EDT 1994
Article: 575 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
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:      My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
: the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
: nothing to do with them.

: Shadowfax

Then I guess you would be very much against PV's, considering the 
large energy input during processing which came from somewhere, not
to mention the hydroflouric acid, arsene gas, CFC's etc. that were
used during processing. Or does 'clean' to you simply mean that the
mess is in someone else's back yard?

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:10 EDT 1994
Article: 576 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.uoregon.edu!engineer.mrg.uswest.com!cherokee!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Summary: EE Times article; Lead-acid battery fast charger.
Keywords: Battery EV Lead Acid Charge
Organization: NETCOM On-line (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 23:59:35 GMT
Lines: 31
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The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
standard D.C. charger. 

The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

(Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:11 EDT 1994
Article: 577 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!world!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <hatunenCtoKz7.7CK@netcom.com>
Keywords: Battery EV Lead Acid Charge
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 02:45:06 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
>The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
>contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
>Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
>
>A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
>produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
>is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
>In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
>a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
>would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
>were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
>standard D.C. charger. 
>
>The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
>conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
>and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
>the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
>
>Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
>the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
>do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
>Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
>plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
>Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
>from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
>deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:12 EDT 1994
Article: 578 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtotw0.LtJ@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:57:35 GMT
Lines: 32
Status: O
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Len Turnbow (quartlow@netcom.com) wrote:
: The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

: A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
: produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
: is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
: In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
: a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
: would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
: were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
: standard D.C. charger. 

: The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
: conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
: and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
: the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


: Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
: the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
: do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
: Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
: plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
: Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
: from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
: deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

: (Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
: contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
: controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From harr@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:13 EDT 1994
Article: 579 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: harr@netcom.com (Charles Chuck Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Induction machines
Date: 29 Jul 1994 21:18:16 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9407291705.A18939-0100000@netcom6>
References: <c9b_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Self-excited induction machines (both single- and 3-phase) seem to
be a fairly hot topic in the Middle East & India recently.  Check
out the last year or so of IEEE Trans. Energy Conversion at your
nearest university library.  Also the proceedings of the
6th International Conference on Electrical Machines and Drives,
IEE conf pub 376 (1993), ISBN 0 85296 596 6.  Yes, that's
IEE - British - not IEEE.

It seems that self-exicted induction is the cat's meow for
micro hydro systems.

Chuck


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:14 EDT 1994
Article: 580 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:40:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 60
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bpf5$lk6@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

"Nope. Please don't put words in our mouths! We am very interested in
renewable energy futures. However we recognize that there are other
factors such as economics whihc need to be considered as well."

     The only words I was putting anywhere regarded one post from a
pro-nuke who was upset because he was asked to stop the nuclear-vs-solar
debate. I wasn't into picking nits until I was backed up and made to do
so. Remember, economically speaking, what works for some may be impossible
for others. To me solar is worth every thin dime I've spent and those I'll
be spending in the years to come. I'm not tied to FPL anymore and I'll
reach payback in only a few years. No matter how much you pay on you
electric bill I sincerely doubt you'll ever one even one small power
plant.


"We also have a broad enough view to know that no energy source is without
it's environmental (and other) concerns. We for instance realize that it
takes a tremendous amount of energy and noxious chemical processing to
create PV's, and that other methods (such as thermal conversion) might
be much more benign."

    Acknowledged - but were you aware that the average solar panel will
generate many times the power used in it's creation over a nominal 20 year
lifespan? Noxious chemicals are used in photo-processing pictures too - at
least the chemicals used in creating the high-purity silicon solar cells
aren't dumped down the drain at the end of the night. They are quite
readily recyclable and their use in the production process occurs in a
closed-loop system with minimal waste.

:   > (2) what is "alternative"? 

"Well, I guess that leaves out geothermal and hydro since they are very
much mainstream here in the pacific northwest. Solar is 'alternate' for
the
moment but then I guess it won't be as soon as it becomes economical for
the utilities to switch. You're proposing that once solar becomes popular
this
group will no longer be able to discuss it?"

    Once again you seem intent on cornering me on a definition. This time
I'm going bail because I think this Group needs to direct it's bandwith to
more useful things than the EXACT definition of "alternative." Therefore,
in the words of Webster: ALTERNATIVE: (n) One of a number of things from
which one must be chosen. (a) Necessitating or allowing a choice between
two or more than two things.

     If you want to hear it my way: Alternative Energy (n) A source of
clean electric power created with an absolute minimun or absence of noise,
pollution and/or waste (preferably recyclable), which is ecologically and
environmentally sound.

    Jot that one down since you asked for it. Nuffsaid in the definition
department.

Shadowfax




From ispeech@cais.cais.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:15 EDT 1994
Article: 581 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!sun.cais.com!cais.cais.com!ispeech
From: ispeech@cais.cais.com (IBM Spoken Lang Syst)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Vacation
Date: 29 Jul 1994 20:45:19 GMT
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How about information where I could purchase one, say in the 8-10 hp range?

Thanks


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:16 EDT 1994
Article: 582 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:42:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
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References: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cto5qx.Mo4@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

"Then I guess you would be very much against PV's, considering the 
large energy input during processing which came from somewhere, not
to mention the hydroflouric acid, arsene gas, CFC's etc. that were
used during processing. Or does 'clean' to you simply mean that the
mess is in someone else's back yard?"

    Hardly. I've lived in New Jersey and had just such a mess IN my
backyard. Read my other post - most of those chemicals are captured and
processed or recycled. At least that's how they were doing it when I
learned about it.

Shadowfax




From bergstro@src.honeywell.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:17 EDT 1994
Article: 583 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!not-for-mail
From: bergstro@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 21:03:03 GMT
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center, Minneapolis, MN
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <BERGSTRO.94Jul29160303@tbird.src.honeywell.com>
References: <775166990snz@codesmth.demon.co.uk> <3161uj$qk@search01.news.aol.com>
	<rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tbird.src.honeywell.com
In-reply-to: rabii@netcom.com's message of Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:42:56 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>>>> On Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:42:56 GMT, rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd) said:

> I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS
> an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it
> continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it may not).

Given the significant percentage (15% or more?) of US energy produced
at nuclear plants, I'd hardly consider nuclear an alternative source. 

> What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable.  Theoretically,

This is the important point here - this newsgroup is about renewable
energy sources, isn't it?

Pete


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:19 EDT 1994
Article: 584 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:47:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bpsa$ln2@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <318q5i$ptl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <318q5i$ptl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, cocking@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Cara
'Glorified Version of a Pelican' Cocking) writes:

" I live in southern Florida (Boca Raton) and we have solar panels on our
 roof that heat our water.  I know there are others in our area who use
 solar power to heat their water."
 
     I've seen lots of solar hot water, but almost no power production.
I'm still curious as to why.
     I'm working on a self-sustaining hot-water system for my house now
and hope to have it up and running sometime in August. Considering the sun
down here I'll probably be able to disconnect my hot water heater elements
altogether.

Shadowfax



From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:20 EDT 1994
Article: 585 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:51:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bq3m$lpd@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>, seiaopps@access3.digex.net
(Solar Energy Industries Assoc.) writes:

"Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in
Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com"

     I would like that - perhaps you could post all or some of them here
for everyone to see?

Shadowfax




From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:21 EDT 1994
Article: 586 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtouz9.13H@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com> <hatunenCtoKz7.7CK@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 06:21:08 GMT
Lines: 45
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
: Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
: >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
: >
: >(Body of article snipped)

Dave wrote:
: Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

: Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
: take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
: would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
: of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
: The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
: could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
: must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
: a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
: gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

(Sig snipped)

Len replies:

The article didn't mention if the charger used a local battery
to integrate the charge over a long period of time.  An EV equipped with
10 batteries, each measuring 105 amp-hours would require 1522.5 WHr per
battery for a recharge.  The block of 10 batteries would thus need 
15225 WHr.  For a 20 minute recharge, this equates to 45675 W for the
entire block.  I agree that even at 230V, this is a mind-boggling
199 amps. 

However, if the charger had a local matching battery block that it recharged
over a period of only eight hours daily, the continuous load would be
only =) about 25 amps at 230 V.  More reasonable, Nes pas?

Why not just swap battery blocks, I hear you say?  It would be faster,
I agree.  The reason is that a rapid-recharge system could accomodate your 
car or truck or motorcycle or lawnmower all with differently sized packs.

This is one way around the problem you mentioned.

Regards,  --Len


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:23 EDT 1994
Article: 587 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 39
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
IW> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
IW> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
IW> DH> gasoline, etc?

They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
converting to propane <cheaper>

IW>They tend to be a bit more expensive, and the fuel consumption is
IW>going to be 10-20% more than gasoline, from what I've heard. Engines

True, they use more gas.

IW>that run on propane are supposed to last a lot longer, due to the
IW>fuel being cleaner. Better on the air too.

True also, to a point. There is a minor problem with "top end
lubrication" because you don't have the lubricating effect of the
pertro. derived fuel. Top end lubricators can be purchased but I find it
better to "smoke down" an internal combustion engine that may not be run
again for a while. I do this by useing a mechanics oiler <squirt gun>
full of Mystery Oil. It is a red colored oil that will burn in the
combustion chamber but at the same time completely coats all surfaces
includeing the exhaust valves. Just pop open the air cleaner and squirt
it into the intake untill a large cloud of smoke starts billowing out
the exhaust. When started again it will smoke untill it burns all the
oil off. I also put some in the crank case too. About one quart to four
is a good ratio. That tends to help lub the top end also.

IW>No expert here, but questions are welcome, as I do run a
IW>homebuilt DC gen on propane.

I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * You can check out but you can never leave!


From James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:24 EDT 1994
Article: 588 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2604-407-0!James.Nepil
From: James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (James Nepil)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CARS
Message-ID: <a38_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 06:08:59 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * (201)641-8167 14.4
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
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    I don't remember who was looking for the information on ELECTRIC CARS but
here is the information you need!
U.S ELECTRIcar
117 Morris St.
Sebastopol, Calif.
          95472
phone numer is (707) 829-4545
   I hope this helps you out ....Will try to get you more information if needed
:)
                            Best to you All !
                                James
* SPITFIRE v3.4


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:25 EDT 1994
Article: 589 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12volts
Message-ID: <a3e_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 12:07:42 GMT
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 GP>  On 07-17-94 Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...
 LD>
 LD>   I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

 GP>   Those draw a LOT of juice...like 7 to 13 amps each.  There are readily
 GP>   available 12 volt screw-in incandescent bulbs at all trailer supply
 GP>   places.  These bulbs look exactly like a standard indoor incandescent.

You're right, Gary, headlamps do draw a lot of current but I don't think you'd
use them for indoor illumination.  Larry was thinking of smaller bulbs more on
the order of tail light bulbs or dome light bulbs.  I'm familiar with the screw
in 12 volt bulbs you mention and they work very well.  One caution, though.  Be
careful not to inadvertently screw one of them into a 120 volt socket (they act
just like a flash bulb!).

 GP>   Possibly better yet, look into florescent lighting.  It is widely
 GP>   available for home, 120 volt use and it is super efficient.

There are also 12 volt florescent units available and they are also very
efficient.  As I replace light fixtures in my travel trailer, I'm converting
over to them.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:27 EDT 1994
Article: 590 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-213-830-0!Fred.Nowall
From: Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org (Fred Nowall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <a5e_9407291648@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 16:15:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: InterComm - 702-359-2666 -
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LDY>  I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.
LDY>Popeye

this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
popeye just wandering?
fred


From seiaopps@access3.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:28 EDT 1994
Article: 591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access3.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     I'm curious to see if there are any other people out there who might
>be Florida residents generating their own power through solar/AE. As near
>as I can tell, aside from an experiment or two at the local Vo-Tech
>school, no one in this area besides myself is doing any real harvesting of
>Florida Sunshine for power.
>
>Shadowfax
>
>

Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com

Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Association
seiaopps@digex.com


From windsor@access1.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:29 EDT 1994
Article: 592 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!access1!windsor
From: windsor@access1.digex.net (Windsor Software Corp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Rayovac Renewal Batteries
Date: 30 Jul 1994 18:06:31 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
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HBSAW (hbsaw@aol.com) wrote:
: I have been using the batterys for three months now with a Eagle hand-held
: GPS unit. This GPS has a hell of a currect drain. AAA batterys are set to
: 9 volts or 6 batterys. Current drain will pull down the batterys(any
: batterys) to 6.5 volts in 2 hours,at which time the GPS shuts down. I have
: rechargede the Rayovacs' 12 or 15 times and I have had no trouble with
: them holding a full charge. Most of the time I get 2 contuse hours out of
: them. I like them

Does anyone know of an inexpensive retailer of the Rayovac Renewal
batteries?  Many local stores stock them, but generally at list price.

--
Michael C. Smith
Windsor Software Corp, 8377 Cherry Ln, Laurel, MD  20707-4831
windsor@access.digex.net . 301-497-4211 voice . 301-470-0159 fax
Client-server NT, SQL Server, Unix, Sybase applications


From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:30 EDT 1994
Article: 593 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:31 EDT 1994
Article: 594 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:32 EDT 1994
Article: 595 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:33 EDT 1994
Article: 596 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqs0H.Jxz@eskimo.com>
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There is a little startup venture in Issaquah WA. that
has some fair size research contracts to build a gas
to electricity generator in the multi-kilowatt size range .

The product is cylindrical, with a central burner tube that
radiates outwards through some low pass optical filters onto
strips of Gallium Antimonide (GaSb) Photovoltaic "solar" cells.

It works. The low bandgap GaSb converts the near Infra-Red
radiation into electric power . 

Envisioned product configurations include cabin heaters that provide
electricity as a byproduct for colder climes and electric power for
hybrid vehicles that burn natural gas and run electric motors .

The car idea takes advantage of the fact that with continuous 
high temperature combustion there are little emissions to worry
about compared to internal combustion engines where the moment
of combustion is short compared to the combustion cycle so the
average temperature is relatively low leaving lots of byproduct
emissions.





From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:34 EDT 1994
Article: 597 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
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The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
photovoltaic effect.



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:35 EDT 1994
Article: 598 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
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Testing response procedure with environment set
to vi .


From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:36 EDT 1994
Article: 599 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: QUIET
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X-Status: 

See new thread 77 this group.



From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:10:37 EDT 1994
Article: 600 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 21:16:49 GMT
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In <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

|> |    The rivers of the eastern states were "littered" with low head hydro 
|> |plants around the turn of the century with the water being used over and 
|> |over again. Rather elegant. The folks I know who are using small hydro 
|> |generally don't have dams, the one person I do know who uses a dam has 
|> |one a whole foot high.

|His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
|rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
|"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
|either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
|last couple years.

I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

|> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
|> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.

|     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.

The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
either the month before that, or two months before that.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:38 EDT 1994
Article: 601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 30 Jul 1994 23:54:03 -0000
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On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

> |His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
> |rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
> |"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
> |either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
> |last couple years.

> I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
> description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 
know exactly. The system has worked well and the board forming his dam 
generally has water spilling over the top. No great shakes since it's not 
causing bank errosion and he's usually only using a small percentage of 
the creekflow (what is used gets returned to the creek in short order so 
he's only temporarily "borrowing" a few GPM).
 
> |> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
> |> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.
> 
> |     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.
> 
> The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
> either the month before that, or two months before that.

   Thanks for the info....DCK




From Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:41 EDT 1994
Article: 602 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-353-460-0!Ron.Perepolkin
From: Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Perepolkin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 17:23:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Big Edge
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X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
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Hi all,

   I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
following passage.

   "The neighbors commented on how the usual
dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
>From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

   Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
*light pollution*???

   Every year poorly designed lighting systems waste more than $1
billion dollars of electricity by lighting nothing but airborne dust and
water vapour.  Think about it....why not shield the lighting as some
cities have or use low pressure sodium lamps?  You don't aim you car
headlights into the sky to see the ground.   You can see the glow of
major cities from 150 kilometers.  Ever been unable to sleep because of
a street light or neighbors flood lamp?

   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
Ask a pilot what they think of "well lit" airports.
People have gone to court and won cases against light trespass into
their yard.

   Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

   Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
see what they are stealing from you.
  If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

   The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector
lighting is cheap and will scare the hell out of a burglar trying to
raid your tool shed.  You will save money on your power bill as well,
and when you are outside yourself the light can still be left on as any
other light can.

   How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

   If you would like to get more information on conserving power by
reducing wasted light both on your own power bill and your cities power
bill (TAXES) write:   The International Dark Sky Association at 3545 N.
Stewart Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85716.

'nuff said.    RP
___
 X QMPro 1.02 41-5024 X Explain counter-clockwise to someone with a digital
watch


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:42 EDT 1994
Article: 603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <74a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:17:55 GMT
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From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 21 Jul 94 18:17:55 GMT



On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

>   Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per watt
>   installed.

    I don't know why I'd ever want to say that Stan, Current PV's are 
around 13% efficient and the panel cost is around $6 per watt of capacity 
and concieveably less. New 50 watt panels run about $300 and I can buy 
good used panels for around $3 per watt (I'm going to).

>   The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
>   30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
>   back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die in
>   a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
>   a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
>   exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

   Stan, the cells aren't going to die in 10 years or even 20. They 
degrade somewhat but most of that happens in the first 10 years. I know 
of a well instrumented system containing a 20 year old panel that still 
puts out 88% of it's rated output and hasn't lost any efficency in the 
last ten years. The knowledgeable folks I know estimate a lifespan of 
nearly a century with perhaps %25 degradation at 50 years. There are many 
panels sold now with a 15 year guarantee that they will still put out 90% 
of rated output.

> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar enthusiasts--
> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
> of producing electricity.

    I believe you don't understand why folks use solar panels Stan. This 
is a common misconception. I don't know of few people who have an 
available grid connection who have gone solar. Most folks using PV's are 
off the grid. Here in CA PG&E (the utility) gets $30,000 per mile to run 
power lines (best case situation) for the priviledge of paying them for 
the power you use. This isn't even an option in many parts of the planet 
where it's PV's, Wind, Hydro, fossil fuels or nothing.

     At *current* rates it will take about 16 years to pay off the 
tracked 400watt PV array (about 3.2kwh/day average) we're putting 
together. Of course I don't expect the current per kwh rate to remain the 
same so they payback should be shorter. There's other infrastructure 
involved in this system (batteries, controller, inverter) but it's going 
to be far cheaper than paying PG&E $25,000 for the priviledge of paying  
a monthly bill. Course the sun doesn't shine every day but often when it 
doesn't the wind blows which explains why we're buying a windplant as well.

     Some folks like to make their own power as a hobby, others because 
they want a degree of self sufficency. Me? I just want out of the power 
loop that supports coal, fossil fired and nuclear generation.

> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great deals!

      Speaking of which it's likely the cost of PV's will fall by about 
half in the next 3-4 years and continue to fall....

    DCK


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:43 EDT 1994
Article: 604 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <74b_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 22:33:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 21 Jul 94 17:33:15 GMT

In article <30k5ai$1gt@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Dean Weiten <dmw@access.mbnet.mb.ca> wrote:

[...]

>Of course, where I come from (Manitoba, Canada), we are lucky enough to be
>able to generate electricity from hydraulic sources - but we have also found
>this not to be quite non-polluting, as several northern native groups can
>attest.  In my ideal world, all power sources would be non-polluting, 
>and IMHO, they would likely be producing electricity.

A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
to clear out the silt. 

The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:45 EDT 1994
Article: 605 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <768_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 15:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 37
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 > ICE.

 LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

Yea me too !

People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
More people are driving...(increasing population)

So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and 
better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
the same scale as the population increases their driving.

It still comes down to --

1) How the electricity is generated (coal, natural gas, SOLAR ?)
2) It is still easier to clean up (and maintain) 1 smokestack 
   than a 100,000+ car exhausts.  So even with the dirtiest 
   generation source you come out ahead.

This sounds like a push from the auto and gas industries to 
derail the Electric Vehicle from becomming a reality in the 
Eastern United States, by not allowing them to adopt the 
California ZEV requirements under the EPA guidelines.

If there are bills being pushed in Congress, can you provide 
the Bill numbers, and the originators name, so we can contact 
our Congress persons about this issue ?  Thanks.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.    
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:46 EDT 1994
Article: 606 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <769_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 : DK>At 10-15
 : DK>cents worth of electricity per hour, opportunity charging is one
 : DK>of the least expensive way to mitigate pollution in congested areas.
 : DK>Quick-charge stations are intended to be to the EV what the standard
 : DK>service station is to the ICE car.  You pull in, plug in, get a rapid
 : DK>recharge, and go on your way.

 SB> : 10 to 15 cents worth of electricity for a Quick charge???  Again,
 SB> NOT : LIKELY!!  10 to 15 dollars for a quick charge at a restaurant
 SB> seems more : likely.

 SB> Easy enough to estimate:

 SB> Around here 10 cents will get you perhaps 2kWh worth. That's about
 SB> 3HP-hours. And that's at off-peak rates.

 SB> Anyhow, ask yourself how far you could drive something bigger than
 SB> a skateboard with 3HP-hours worth of energy. Really slick small car
 SB> might take as little as 10HP to keep going on freeway at say 50MPH.
 SB> Then your dime will get you approx 15 miles or so before your next
 SB> 'quick stop charge'.
 SB> 

Stan,

The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
on that 10 cent charge.

On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:47 EDT 1994
Article: 607 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

 VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
 VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
 VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
 VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
 VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

 VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
 VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
 VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Hello,

It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:48 EDT 1994
Article: 608 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:36:54 GMT
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

[...]

>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.

Actually, Tucson was largely motivated by the fear that one of its
major industries might be destroyed by stray light, especially from
certain spectral lines issued by the mercury vapor lamps previously in
use. Tucson happens to be surrounded by astronomical observatories,
some say the largest cluster of observatories in the world. 

When I was a grad student in the Physics department at UofA, one of my
friends had the rather dreary research assignment of recording night
skyglow spectra from Kitt Peak; Pheonix was beginning to give Kitt Peak
some problems.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:49 EDT 1994
Article: 609 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: SOLAR
Message-ID: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:45:50 GMT
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I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 

I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:50 EDT 1994
Article: 610 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
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References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:48:38 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
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I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.




From cavery@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:51 EDT 1994
Article: 611 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!cavery
From: cavery@netcom.com (Christopher Avery)
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <caveryCttBqx.Jpq@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:13:45 GMT
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony Cygan (Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

:  -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

:  VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
:  VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
:  VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
:  VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
:  VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

:  VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
:  VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
:  VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

: Hello,

: It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
: counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


: ... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
: ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

I believe the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab (near Baltimore, MD) did 
quite a bit of research in this area but could not come up with a 
practical solution.  An alternative idea is to use ocean thermal energy to 
produce hydorgen, convert that to ammonia for transportion purposes, and 
then use the ammonia as a fuel for cars and electric plants.


From jmccabe@access.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:52 EDT 1994
Article: 612 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: jmccabe@access.digex.net (Joe McCabe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 31 Jul 1994 15:16:07 -0400
Organization: Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
>Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
>

And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

 >


-- 
Joe McCabe, P.E. 
Multimedia Manager
Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
jmccabe@digex.net  (202)289-5365   fax(202)289-5354


From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug  5 10:10:53 EDT 1994
Article: 613 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 12:32:53 -0700
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
silicon.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey, Dept. of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering |
| University of California Berkeley                               |
| bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu          Barney + Rush = Barney  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+


From CYBURG@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:54 EDT 1994
Article: 614 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: CYBURG@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: re:SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 22:05:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Eskimo North asked about  snow load

I've installed several systems in high snow load areas and seen crushed
modules that were not installled properly.  The most important single factor
is array angle.  Since the force on the modules varies as the cosine of the
pitch angle, the steeper the incline, the less perpendicular force will bear
on the module surface.
Another important requirement is that space be provided below the array,
since on a steeply inclined array a great deal of the snow will slide off if
it can.  Other important factors involve the structural strength of the
racking and supports.

Don Loweburg



From Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:56 EDT 1994
Article: 615 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-214-86!Dean.Kuusela
From: Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 19:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Barbary Coast
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
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Hello all!

I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Thanks.

Catcha later,
Dean 


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:57 EDT 1994
Article: 616 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <c6d_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 49
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 SB> From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 SB> Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 SB> Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
 SB> watt installed.
     ^^^^
 Right now you can get Solar power at $2-5.00 per watt with the
 panels only 15% effecient.  What makes you think this would 
 change to such a drastic amount (20,000 % more !).

 SB> On a good day you might get me to pay 10 cents per kilowatt hour-
 SB> which is based upon what I can already get electricity for. Now you
 SB> install for $1000 a single one watt cell and start pumping juice out
 SB> to me. 
 SB> Well, every thousand hours of daylight I'll send you a dime. Good
 SB> deal right- after all the sun is free?

 SB> The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
 SB> 30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
 SB> back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die
 SB> in a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
 SB> a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
 SB> exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

 SB> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 SB> enthusiasts-- 
 SB> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
 SB> of producing electricity.
 
 Using such illogical numbers that you do makes no sense.  If it 
 would cost such a drastic amount to get 100% effeciency no one
 would bother doing it.  You would just use more of the "cheap"
 modules to accomplish your goal.  (and many people already do it).

 SB> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
 SB> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great
 SB> deals! 
 SB> --
 SB> Stan Bischof
 SB> Hewlett Packard Sonoma County



... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:59 EDT 1994
Article: 617 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV's 3 of 4
Message-ID: <c6e_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 15:21:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James W Dille
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting James W Dille to All <=-

 JWD> From: jwd@cec1.wustl.edu (James W Dille)
 JWD> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:21:49 GMT

 JWD> The pack exchange idea sounds workable, but if, as I have heard, it
 JWD> will $4,000 per year to keep oneself in batteries (on the average),
 JWD> with pack exchange that cost will still have to be borne by someone. If
 JWD> you exchange packs 100 times a year, wouldn't the fee have to be at
 JWD> least $40 a shot? And if an exchange will take you another 100 miles,
 JWD> it's pretty expensive and slow going.

I've never heard these numbers, can you provide me with 
information on where you heard it from ???

If true then I don't think it would be a plausible solution
and would not happen as the market would not accept it, and 
some other way of fast charging would come out.  

The big hurdle for battery pack exchange as I see it, is 
conformity.  Every maker of Electric Cars would have to agree 
on a standard and then keep it, pretty much forever, so it's
not likely to happen soon.

Tony


... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:00 EDT 1994
Article: 618 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: electric scooters
Message-ID: <c6f_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
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 -=> Quoting Nick Lindert to All <=-

 NL> From: nlindert@ichips.intel.com (Nick Lindert)
 NL> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:42:09 GMT

 NL> I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have
 NL> details on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

 NL> -- 
 NL> Nick Lindert
 NL> Mailstop: JF1-19
 NL> Home: (503)614-0731
 NL> Work: (503)696-9074

Nick, there are a few people selling these things.

You might try calling the following numbers as a place to 
start.

-- Doran Motor Co. at (702)359-7356
-- Green Motor Works at (818)766-3800

Tony

... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:01 EDT 1994
Article: 619 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:59:05 -0000
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On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
> a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
> One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
> There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
> have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
> Do they need extra support ? 
> 
> I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
> sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?

     I have some friends with a solar powered repeater at 7000 feet in 
the mountains of Northern CA. The PV's sit on a 30 foot pole next to the 
block repeater shack. My buddy has some pics of the array which looks 
like the array is sitting about 10 feet in the air surrounded by snow 
with no trace of the shack. The panels are now two years old and are 
holding up just fine. They actually make more power per unit time during 
the winter because they're cold.
   DCK
 



From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:02 EDT 1994
Article: 620 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Date: 1 Aug 1994 00:10:22 -0000
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On 25 Jul 1994, Dean Kuusela wrote:

> Hello all!
> 
> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

    Maybe Don Lowenburg will pitch in his $.02 here. Anyway, If you can 
consider a diesel if you plan to use it much. If a diesel isn't 
acceptable and you use gasoline consumption will likely be about double. 
To give you an idea a Coleman Maxxa 5000w unit burns 1 gallon in 1.2 
hours at 50% load, a Honda EG5000 will run 2.6 hrs on 1.9 gal fuel at %50 
load and a 2500w Honda can run 3 hrs at half load on 1 gallon. My friend 
claims 4 hours per gallon at 2500w output with his 6kW China Diesel genset.
     DCK
P.S.- Were I going to buy a gas genset I think I'd look for a 1800 rpm Onan.




From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:03 EDT 1994
Article: 621 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu286.94@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Dean Kuusela (Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Hello all!

: I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
: boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
: hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

If you assume 80% efficiency for the generator and drive system, then you 
need 5000/.85 = 5880 Watts input to run it.

5880 W * (1 hp/746W) = 7.9 hp

Light duty generator engines consume about .55 to .6 lb of fuel per 
horsepower hour and gas weighs about 6.8 lb/gallon so your fuel 
consumption will be about:
(7.9 hp)*(.6lb/hphr)*(1/6.8 lb/gal) = .7 gal/hr

Can't help you with the brand, but if you're going to use it for several 
thousand hours get one with a good engine.  The cheapos wear out in one 
to two thousand hours.  Also, if you are really going to be putting out 
5000 watts for long periods of time, get a bigger generator.  5000 Watts 
for 8 hours a day is 1200 kWhr a month which is more than twice the power 
consumed by the average urban house.  Are you setting up a machine shop 
in the woods or something?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:04 EDT 1994
Article: 622 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:49:37 GMT
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Joe McCabe (jmccabe@access.digex.net) wrote:

: >>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
: >>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
: >>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
: >

: And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
: sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
: in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:07 EDT 1994
Article: 623 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: IEEE article
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ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 

It was a very impressive site . 

They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
They array field was bought by some outfit that has
been stripping it down and selling the panels .


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:08 EDT 1994
Article: 624 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Date: 1 Aug 1994 07:50:23 -0000
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On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
> field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
> they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 
> 
> It was a very impressive site . 
> 
> They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
> They array field was bought by some outfit that has
> been stripping it down and selling the panels .

     Yes, I believe this was called the Carrizo Plains Demonstration Site 
and I thought (off the top of my head) that is was 70MW...could easily be 
wrong on the latter. This is the source for most of the "Quadlams" you 
see advertised. Carizzo Solar Corp. (1-800.776.6718) is the outfit 
selling off the panels (mainly thru dealers). There must be a mountain of 
them as they've been selling 'em off for some time. Their ad states "The 
Cheapest Photovoltaics in the World".
      A lot of the panels are pretty scuzzy...but still work. The bronze 
unframed "Quadlams" were used with reflectors to boost output and while 
they look pretty funky a 4 panel set puts out around 90w and can be had 
for about $200....Some dealers are selling the better framed panels that 
weren't cooked with reflectors...a three panel framed set putting out 
about 100w runs about $350...sometimes less. Some folks at SEER had the 
100w sets for $300....they looked pretty good and are likely what I'll be 
buying soon.
      I kinda envision folks mining the desert for PV's :-).
            DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:09 EDT 1994
Article: 625 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:08:02 -0000
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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:12 EDT 1994
Article: 626 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Phantom Power Suckers
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:23:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 231
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010148.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 

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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:14 EDT 1994
Article: 627 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hackleman on EV's
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:24:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 110
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010134.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:15 EDT 1994
Article: 628 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: OOPS, 37 not 50...
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:28:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010145.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


    Before someone figures it out let me say that the Hackleman article 
on EV's if from Home Power mag #37, not 50....it's from page 50 of that 
issue. 
     DCK

P.S. - Hope you folks are enjoying these articles....




From seiaopps@access1.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:11:17 EDT 1994
Article: 629 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access1.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: U.S Solar Energy Manufactueres
Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:19:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31j3p5$pks@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

I noticed several inquiries here concerning locating manufacurers of 
solar energy technologies.

The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology maintains a 
database of our membership directory.

This database can be access via world wide web at http://solstice.crest.org.

The database allows you to search vendors by technology and should soon 
be available via gopher and ftp.  




"Solar energy--do the bright thing"


Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Assosciation
seiaopps@digex.com
(202) 383-2600


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:18 EDT 1994
Article: 630 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <845_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding why the switch contacts not rated for DC tend to burn up, it gets all
involved with calculus and such.  However, there is an
easy way to visualize it.  The electrons in DC flow continuously, and
when the switch tries to break the flow, an arc results and burns up
the contacts.  On ac, the flow of electrons goes to zero twice every
cycle.  When you open the switch, before a significant arc can be established,
the flow of electrons goes to zero.  In effect, in DC the switch being opened
stops the current flow, and in ac the switch
keeps the flow of current from starting up again.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:19 EDT 1994
Article: 631 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <846_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 

* In a message originally to All, Stan Bischof said:
 > From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 > Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 > don walli (dwalli@mtu.edu) wrote:
 > : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the
 > electrolysis
 > : modules? 
 > : Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells,
 > Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 > enthusiasts--

 > the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to
 > the cost
 > of producing electricity.

You are correct, but in the past utility companies were subsidized to connect
to people "off the main roads".  THis is gradually being
phased out.  Power companies generally charge for hook-up if you are over 200
feet from existing lines, plus a charge per foot.  Charges per foot are 
(examples that I know of) between $3.50 and $10 per foot.  If you are 1200 feet
from the nearest power line, you can expect to pay between $3,500 and $10,000
for the prividge of paying a monthly bill.  You can buy a pretty nice AE system
for those dollars.  In this case, the cost of maintenance is the only factor,
not the original cost of the system.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:20 EDT 1994
Article: 632 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?
Message-ID: <84e_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 08:12:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 


 EH> Well, let's put it this way.  My shop air is from a
 EH> 1950 Cadillac compressor
 EH> driven by a 3/4 horse three phase motor, which was
 EH> built in 1966.  In all those
 EH> years, most of the time left ON 24 hours a day, (NO
 EH> leaks) I have yet to add

DK>      Hi Elvis....I appreciate your interesting post and
DK> the spirit in which you're sharing information but we are
DK> getting a wee bit off the conference topic here....Thanks
DK> for your cooperation.....DCK

now let's not go over board here. I think that quite often a lot of good 
conversation and ideas get quashed because they are "off topic",
not always necissarily in this echo mind you, but perfectly valid and 
useful info get shut down far too often (at all is too often:)
 Now granted i don't know the full story but Elvis' post and the one he was
responding to can have alot to do with the subjects in this echo since the 
eficient working of the compressor (or any machine) is directly related to 
the amout of energy it needs to run, wich is important not only in the general 
NEED to not be wasteful, but is much more immediate for someone who is trying
to run the thing off there home PV cells or gerbil wheel generator. . .right?
 thanks
  zachariahCzeck
   jason organist

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:22 EDT 1994
Article: 633 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Allen.J_.Filson
From: Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Allen J. Filson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <85b_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:15:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: afilson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Allen J. Filson)
Date: 22 Jul 94 19:15:44 GMT

Greetings,

Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the 
"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it 
great enough to worry about?

Possibly someone could direct me to a source for this kind of information 
relative to the design of energy efficient housing and alternate energy 
systems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Allen


From Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:23 EDT 1994
Article: 634 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Timothy.Wilson.x4040
From: Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <85c_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:24:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:StorageTek
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: timothyw@stortek.com (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Date: 22 Jul 94 22:24:48 GMT

There is a mailing list that is specifically for HPVs.  To subscribe, mail 
a message to Majordomo@zippy.sonoma.edu.  Do not put anything on the subject 
line.  In the body of the message place this line:

   subscribe hpv <your email address>

I hope this helps

Tim


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:25 EDT 1994
Article: 635 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 04:17:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

     Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
water powered but related to such.....
    DCK


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:25 EDT 1994
Article: 636 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <85f_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 18:14:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: John Thompson
Status: O
X-Status: 

JT> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
JT> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
JT> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
JT> DH> gasoline, etc?

JT>    I was just out at a job today, and what do I see but a
JT>    Colman generator 12hp (The green ones) hooked up to
JT>    a propane tank from a gas grill.
JT>    The carburator looked like it was the stock unit with
JT>    very little modification.

Uhoh, the secrets out of the bag. I have seen MANY systems set up as
dual fuel generators that uses the original, unmodified, stock carb.
They can still shut off the propane and fill it with gas and fire it up.
I have seen 2 typs of set-ups. The first uses a plug on the bottom of
the carb <on MOST small engines> in the fuel bowl <where the float is>.
Just let the fuel run out, put a fitting in the hole <most are pipe
thread but be VERY careful to get the same thread and don't cross thread
the hole, a fuel bowl for one of these carbs can be more than an entire
rebuilt carb for a 357> in the bottom of the carb and hook up a line. If
you use a demand type regulator on the propane system <yes, very similar
to scuba regulators> you are ready to roll. You may have to choke it
harder than starting on gasoline, if the regulator has a button that
causes the reg. to force a shot of gas into the hose this works better
than the choke lever. If the fitting has a shut off in the bottom of the
carb then you can just shut off the propane and fill it with gas. The
other system uses a demand type reg. and just a hose to the air horn
<the piece of tubeing or cast metal between the throat of the carb and
air cleaner> or even into the filtered side of the air filter and the
"draw" of the engine will suck propane into the engine. In both cases
the throtle still works the same.

We use to have an engine that almost never was run other than once every
month or two to keep it in operating condition. Instead of filling the
tank we drained it and left it empty. That way we didn't have to wory
about the fuel going stale. We rolled our accetalene <sp?> torch out
ther, stuck the tip in the throat of the carb, turned on the accet. and
fired the engine up. We could vary the fuel flow with the knob on the
torch. We would run it for a while to bring the engine up to temperature
and then would "smoke it down" with mystery oil.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:27 EDT 1994
Article: 637 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <877_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 73
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: RON PEREPOLKIN
Status: O
X-Status: 

RP>    San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
  > due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental


I agree w/you about light pollution, but you are wrong on the following
part:

RP>    Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
  > burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

RP>    Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
  > created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
  > investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
  > that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
  > see what they are stealing from you.
  >   If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
  > level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
  > to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

If it's dark in both inside and outside, your eyes no matter how adapted
to the dark will not see something outside unless there is light to
reflect off of whatever is out there.

If it's dark outside and lit inside, you see NOTHING outside, only your
reflection  in the window.

If it's light outside and lit inside, you are at a standoff, he can see
you, you can see him.

NO, the BEST situation is dark inside, and well lit outside.

I agree you dont have to put a dozen flood lights out there, and
whatever you do put up should be shielded to light your yard, not the
sky or your neighbors, but you need the light out there...


And THEN you go on about:

RP>    The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
  > install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
  > lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector

I can't believe you'd do this all in the same msg. You bitch about light
pollution, and then just substitue it for noise pollution. I'll tell you
what, I can sleep all night long with my neighbors lights shining into
my bedroom, (and they do) but when one of the 4 neigbors dogs start
barking, there is nothing I can do to get to sleep. With the light, I
draw my drapes or simply roll over, I can't do anything about the "yappy
dog" you seem to like.

Your points about light pollution are valid, and I agree. If you chck
out the origin you'll see I'm in Tucson and support the light ordaninces
100% and even argue with my neighbors about their lights.

But your points about security are wrong, and your substitution for one
form of pollution for another is mis-guided, at best, and hypocritical
at worst.


RP>    How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
  > stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
  > unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
  > actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

Even in Tucson w/all our light ordainces, I still have to leave the city
to see the  milky way, something I do almost every single sat or friday
night. :)


eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Pointing out errors in ones beliefs aka Porcupine Bathing


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:28 EDT 1994
Article: 638 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <878_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: TONY CYGAN
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC> The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
  > stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
  > your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
  > on that 10 cent charge.

TC> On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
  > batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
  > town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

TC> Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
  > rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
  > to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

TC> I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
  > quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
  > power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
  > margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.


Or even better yet if the station or grociery store puts up a
photo-voltaic system on the roof to make his one electricy for his
"customers" use!

I for one am ready! :)

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Intelligence is limited only by the openess of the mind.


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:29 EDT 1994
Article: 639 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <879_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DEAN KUUSELA
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK> Hello all!

DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used p
  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * To a little fish, the waters are always deep.


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:30 EDT 1994
Article: 640 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:55:19 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

>The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
>photovoltaic effect.

Wow.  I wonder how efficient it is, and if they would work in the hot sun.
Maybe you could line your oven with panels in order to recover some energy.

Tony dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:32 EDT 1994
Article: 641 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:27:05 -0400
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In article <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

"I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 
I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?"

     I have 8 Solarex MSX-30 panels, a little smaller than the ones you
mention and have seen them take quite a pounding during some of our recent
summer storms. I know this isn't quite the same as snow-loading, but that
one such storm removed several of my fence panels from behind the array
(an idea of it's strengeth).
     Another thought would be Duravolt panels - they're really rugged,
backed with stainless steel and fronted with a Tefcell (sp?) coating which
water and debris just slide off of. I have no doubt they could take
whatever kind of snow loading you could envision as worst-case, and then
some.

Shadowfax




From baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:33 EDT 1994
Article: 642 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind)
Subject: NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid, Lithium cells comparison
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Hi,
Can anyone give me some leads as to where to find a comparison of the four leading rechargeable battery technologies NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid and Lithium with respect to parameters such aas charge time, discharge time, memory effects, peak power, capacity at various current levels, internal impedance, size etc.

If there is a FAQ about this please let me know.

This info is needed for a research project I am doing in school and I need the info in a couple of days.

Please post or mail to baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu

Thanks
Bhaskar


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:34 EDT 1994
Article: 643 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, appliances
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:42:04 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC 
house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC 
house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce
EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?

I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiring
for my home.

Post, or email:  Tony Dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mercury@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:36 EDT 1994
Article: 644 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mercury@crl.com (Kenneth Greenlaw)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Tesla newsgroup?
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:26:42 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [login: guest]
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I'm looking for a newsgroup relevant to the work of Nicola Tesla.  Anyone 
know of such a place?

Regards,

	Ken



From belanos@acs.bu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:37 EDT 1994
Article: 645 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: belanos@acs.bu.edu (Jacob Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jobs in windpower?
Date: 2 Aug 1994 01:45:19 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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Are there any?
I'm going to be graduating with my engineering bachelors next May and
have a strong interest in windpower. 
I was wondering what the job market was like and where windpower firms
are located.
any info would be much appreciated.

Jacob Sutton
email: belanos@acs.bu.edu
 


From drais@crash.cts.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:38 EDT 1994
Article: 646 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: drais@crash.cts.com (John H. Drais)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Organization: The Paracelsian Order
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 15:52:42 GMT
Message-ID: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
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> ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
>mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

>Shadowfax

Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may be too 
hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or over easy?)

By the way, we have a 264 acre retreat in sunny Southern CA that we are just 
now looking to convert and switch off the grid. This is a great place to visit 
for anyone wishing to help us design a practical system affordable by a poor 
monastery. If anyone responds I will provide particulars.



John H Drais
The Paracelsian Order
18372 Highway 94
Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA


From Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:39 EDT 1994
Article: 647 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Richardson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
Message-ID: <ecb_9408012147@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 23:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
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X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
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VLV> From: vescovo@netcom.com (Victor Lance Vescovo)
VLV> Date: 15 Jul 94 04:09:22 GMT

VLV> Ivo Roper (ivo@remarque.berkeley.edu) wrote:
VLV> : Howdy all,


VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have
VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current
VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be
VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a
VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
VLV> by
VLV> flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Two solutions, 1, use two contra-rotating flywheels, one located within
the other, the precession can be balanced out in this manner. Or 2)
couple the flywheel inductively, with electromagnets, and allow the
flywheel to precess all it wants on magnetic bearings. Both solutions
are workable, both are used in other applications.

                Jim Ricardson
        Patriot, pagan and proud of it.


From etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:40 EDT 1994
Article: 648 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas40c45!etxgfn
From: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se (Gunnar Forsgren)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Followup-To: sci.energy
Date: 2 Aug 1994 10:02:26 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
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Distribution: world
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:23661 alt.energy.renewable:648
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I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
for producing energy for a whole household.

There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.

Can some of you provide me with information regarding

- U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
  small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.

- Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 

- Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.


I will then pass this info on to my brother.

Thanks,

---
Gunnar Forsgren             <etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se>
Ericsson Telecom, Sweden    "Personal interests"





From sflack@moose.uvm.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:41 EDT 1994
Article: 649 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 2 Aug 1994 12:03:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.

			Sarah Flack


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:42 EDT 1994
Article: 650 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:48:22 -0000
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On 2 Aug 1994, Gunnar Forsgren wrote:

> I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
> in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
> those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
> Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
> for producing energy for a whole household.
> 
> There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.
> Can some of you provide me with information regarding
> 
> - U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
>   small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.
> - Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 
> - Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.

  I would reccomend your brother speak with Don Harris a manufacturer of 
small hydro power plants (408.425.7652) about this and also Bob-O Schultz 
at Electron Connection (916.475.3401). I'm not aware of any clubs per say.

  The Best body of information on small hydro has probably been in Home 
Power magazine. Over the years they've run many articles on this and the 
related types of stuff you mention (inverters, batteries, controls, 
etc.). International surface subscriptions run $20 or $44US via airmail 
to Europe. If your brother is sincerely interested in home-scale power 
generation it would be a great investment. The article text and graphics 
from the first 37 issues is on the SOLAR-1 CDROM (ISO9660 format) which 
is priced at $32 including shipping via air to Europe (Issue 42 is just 
now reaching subscribers). You can reach Home Power Magazine at 
916.475.3179 or via mail at PO. Box 520, Ashland Oregon 97520 (they also 
sell the CD).




From ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:43 EDT 1994
Article: 651 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!ericom!olga!ehsbpe
From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: olga.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT
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I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
the grid". 
There are some people in Sweden that has been found
"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
been crossing their grounds.
The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
electric hazards etc.

Borje Persson 


From gbalfanz@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:44 EDT 1994
Article: 652 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!gbalfanz
From: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz)
Subject: Best charge controller?
Message-ID: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.

I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.

Thanks, Greg


                      \|/
            /\        -O-         
           /  \       /|\         
          /    \   /\             
         /      \ /  \  Deep in the heart of Texas hill country
        /  /\    /    \        /\    /\  /\      /\            /\/\/\  /\
       /  /  \  /      \      /  \/\/  \/  \  /\/  \/\  /\  /\/ / /  \/  \  
      /  /    \/ /\     \    /    \ \  /    \/ /   /  \/  \/  \  /    \   \
     /  /      \/  \/\   \  /      \    /   /    \
  __/__/_______/___/__\___\__________________________________________________



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:45 EDT 1994
Article: 653 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 2 Aug 1994 15:05:21 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31lnbh$fht@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 20109@ericsson.se, ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
> I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
> energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
> the grid". 
> There are some people in Sweden that has been found
> "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
> been crossing their grounds.
I have been playing with fluorecent light under a big power line for a lot of
years ago. We had a small cabin that was "powered" by induction from the HV-line.
We used an old fence wire to collect the power.
> The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
> between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
> The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
> has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
> By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
> have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
> Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
> can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
> anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
> understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
> magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
> electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
> electric hazards etc.
> 
> Borje Persson 
It's still a crime in Sweden, and I think they regulary "ping" the 
lines for checking the impedance of the net. With the technologi of today it's
easy to detect if something has been changed and also the position of the change.
So I think you must have a better lawyer than the power company..............
/oo
The opinion above is my own etc.







From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:46 EDT 1994
Article: 654 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching power through induction
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:44:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Status: O
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     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
use.
     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.


Shadowfax




From bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:49 EDT 1994
Article: 655 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!brian
From: bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 2 Aug 1994 17:29:44 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 11
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[2601]
Message-ID: <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> 
 <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>  
 <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
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Status: O
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In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
> -- 

It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
S.D. Brian


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:50 EDT 1994
Article: 656 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Space Blanket
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:39:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>, drais@crash.cts.com (John H.
Drais) writes:

"Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may
be too hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or
over easy?)"

     I had thought of this but, if I remember correctly, they make a lot
of crinkling noise when you move them around. The throw-blankets are soft
and quiet, and cost less than $10 at Target. The girlfriend is very
thermally efficient with a sunny disposition, but never over easy ("hey -
you're on my side again! <pokepoke>) <G>.

Shadowfax




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:11:51 EDT 1994
Article: 657 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775843917@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:11:57 GMT
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In <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 

I don't know too many people who have a 120 foot drop across their property.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:11:52 EDT 1994
Article: 658 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:14:03 GMT
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
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In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:

|In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
|| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
|| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
|| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

|More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
|Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
|energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
|silicon.

The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:53 EDT 1994
Article: 659 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCtx9I8.E01@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:15:44 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>,
Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS <ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.

I believe they would have to be parallel to the poser lines.

>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.

Generating voltage is trivial. The problem is what happens when you add
a load to the line. What kind of current can you draw, and what happens
to the voltage when you draw the current. If attaching a 220 volt lamp
causes the voltage at the lamp to sag to 10 volts, it becomes kind of
useless.

>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

That actually is possible, but not with the simple induction pickup
described above. I would think that a workable secondary (in effect you
are creating a transformer) would be quite noticable to the
authorities, and might involve some trespass.

>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

That sounds like an urban legend.



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:54 EDT 1994
Article: 660 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Power consumtion of Peltier junction coolers
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:01:38
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170138@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <793_9407161839@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <3145uq$dgo@search01.news.aol.com>
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In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:24:10 -0400
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datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:
   (Ken Finney) writes:
   >Has anyone out there measured the current at 12 V required to run one
   >of those coolers that use Peltier junctions to stay cold?  I understand
   >they
   >aren't very efficient and take quite a lot of current, but how much is "a
   >lot"?

   I believe that the average 36 quart size cooler using Peltier junctions
   uses 4.5amps at 12vdc with an average of 2.5 amps per hour if the cooler
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		
   is thermostatically controlled.

I think you mean an "average of 2.5 amps," (or even "2.5 amp-hours per hour.")
but not "amps per hour"
Amps are a unit of current, Coulombs per second 
(i.e. 6 times 10^18th  electrons per second) 
So you want the average current, (not the average current per hour, 
which doesn't really make sense unless your talking about how the
current changes (which you are not).

A small point but I think it is important to be precise on these 
technicall matters.



Useing your numbers the cooler would use 54 Watts peek, and 30 Watts
average, which does seem kind of high to me (but not wrong.)
I would think what is inside and how often it is used  is also a big 
factor in effecientcy.  I remembering from years ago but I think
Peltier junctions are about 4% effecient. The Navy invested large
sums of money in the early 60s trying to make them more effecient
and basicly ran out of thing to try.  If they were very effeicent
they would be used instead of solar cells since they work both ways--
electricity to heat and heat to electricity. (this last sentence
is a vast over simplification so don't flame me for it).

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:56 EDT 1994
Article: 661 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:06:24
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
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datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:

   {....]
   My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
   solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
   battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Thats 550 watt hours per day.
A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu.


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:57 EDT 1994
Article: 662 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:41:17
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 46
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References: <191_9407261707@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
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In-reply-to: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org's message of 24 Jul 94 19:37:00 GMT
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Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton) writes:
   The main draw back is that DC is a little different in that running
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      
   wires all over a large house could add enough resistance that the end
   voltage drop might be a problem. Also, switching might prove to be a
   slight problem. If you use 12 volt lights and install normal switches in
   the wall to turn them on and off the contacts in the switches may <in
   the future> give you a problem. One of the tecnical people on this echo
   could probably explain why. I have heard that placeing a capacitor
   accross the switch can help cure the problem.

The difference is not DC vs AC it is 12volt vs 120 volt.  
Using lower voltage requires more current for the same power.
Power (watts) = Current (amps) times Voltage (volts).
Since voltage losses to resistance is proportional to current 
you get more of a voltage drop with less current. (this can 
be compensated for by using lower resistance wires.)  You
can also measure the resistance of the wires using an ohm
meter.  Since Voltage = Current times resistance, you can 
tell howmuch voltage you will lose.  The best and safest 
way to do this is to get a length of the identical wire you are
useing and see what the resistance is. Then you could calculate
how much voltage drop you had for a given current and length of
wire.

As for swithes wearing out: The problem is from arcing when the
switch is turned on and off.  This has to do with the inductance 
of the whole circuit. Inductance causes the voltage to change
inorder to try to maintain the current that is flowing. It seems
that there would be two effects: the higher current causing of 12V
systems, but since the voltage is lower there would be less 
tendency to arc (i.e. break down the air between the contacts, 
which means current will flow through the air until the gap 
got bigger).  Off hand I don't know which is worse but if
the 120V swithces have problems with 12V systems then the higher
current must be the dominate effect, or the inductance of 12V systems
is higher.


This is just off the top of my head...

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu






From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:58 EDT 1994
Article: 663 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: WATTS are POWER !
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:21:13
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2172113@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <CtKMxK.22E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 27 Jul 1994 05:57:44 -0000
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In article <Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

   > Please folks:
   > 
   >  a WATT is a measurement of POWER not ENERGY
   > 
   > "my xyz gismo generated 250 watts par day" is a totally meaningless statement!
   > 
   > If you want ENERGY you can use all sorts of units, such as WATT-HOURS.

	Hi Stan, 
	    I agree with you about the watt-hours bit but over the years 
   when I've used that expression I get a bunch of "huh?'s" so I pretty much 
   gave up and go with the flow. It's a valid technical point but most folks 
   understand what is meant on some level. Feel free to use the right 
   expression but don't feel too bad that the majority is likely to keep on 
   saying "watts" instead.
	    What's the proper abreviation for the term?
		 DCK

Sorry I didn't read this before correcting you again.
But it makes a big difference if people use the wrong units.
Everyone who gets their power from the grid gets billed for 
kilowatt-hours which is of course 1000 watt-hours.  Perhaps 
if you used kilowatt-hours you would not get the "huh's" 
because it is more common. IF you get "huh?'s" maybe you should
try to learn to explain what you mean so people can understand them.

Using incorrect terminology does NOT make anything
clearer. It makes people who understand these thing question whether
you know what your talking about or not. If you say your light
bulb uses 250 watts per day then I don't understand what you mean
on any level What I do understand is that you don't understand what 
your talking about! 


lewis@chaos.ph.utexas
 


From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:59 EDT 1994
Article: 664 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:04:58 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
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brian (bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

: > What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
: > -- 

: It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
: to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
: that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
: see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
: S.D. Brian

Oh, I see.  The cops can't tell red people from green people under the 
lights (:-)


Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:59 EDT 1994
Article: 665 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:20:58
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2182058@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <hatunenCtnotr.1oy@netcom.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 28 Jul 1994 22:50:12 -0000
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In article <Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

   > Watts/hour being a nonsense unit, I will assume you mean output is
   > 50-60 watts, meaning he can't even light a decent reading lamp with
   > this. Since 60 watts for 24 hours is 1440 watt-hours, this sounds
   > correct. But my goodness, what's the point?

     I'll pass on your first comment; I phrased it that way for clarity.
								^^^^^^^
wrong!
   Everything is relative to one's mindset. I can power 3 OSRAM compact 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes some people don't care if they are wrong and confusing.

   flourescent 20 watt lamps with 60 watts and read quite well (with one 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes, 3 times 20 equal sixty so this makes sense. 

   lamp). In the context of your grid connected home 1400 watts might not 
   seem like a lot but to folks off the grid it's heaven. 1400watts will 
							  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   power a 16 cu. ft Sunfrost refridgerator for a day plus run 6 OSRAM 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   20w lamps for 5 hours and let me run my stereo for 6 hours. My energy 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
wrong
   budget for our new home is a little less than 4kWh per day. I wish we had 
yeah! you got it right!				 ^^^^
   a hydro resource because I'd love to have an extra 1400 watts day...
wrong!						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

How many times have you been correct any you still get it wrong!
This is not clarity it is  wrong and confusing. Energy is not
power. They mean two different things.  You do not help matters
by confusing the two. You do not go to the store and buy 50 Watt-hour 
solar pannels, you buy 50 Watt pannels.  1400 watts will POWER anything
that uses 1400 watts or less for as long as you have 1400 watts.  If
you have 1400 watts plus storage then you can power things that that
use more than 1400 watts as long as you generate more Energy (watt hours)
than you use! 

learn the difference between energy and power.
If you want help e-mail me directly and I will try to clear it.
Really If you give the impression that you know what you are
talking about then people will take you more seriously.  You give
impression of someone that is entusiastic and has gotten alternative
energy to work for you, but also someone who's opinions and advice
I would  be cautious of.

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From gmoke@world.std.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:01 EDT 1994
Article: 666 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!world!gmoke
From: gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:35:02 GMT
Lines: 7
Status: O
X-Status: 

: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
: >photovoltaic effect.

	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:02 EDT 1994
Article: 667 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:33:36 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
>FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
>between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
>of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
>use.

Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 

Besides, theft is a criminal law matter.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:04 EDT 1994
Article: 668 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:48:10 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:

>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> 
> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
         DCK
 



From Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:04 EDT 1994
Article: 669 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power...& Miracles
Message-ID: <441_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 16:40:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 31
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X-FTN-To: Ron Perepolkin
Status: O
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 RP>    I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
 RP> posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
 RP> electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
 RP> following passage.

 RP>    "The neighbors commented on how the usual
 RP> dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
 RP> with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
 RP> From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

 RP>    Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
 RP> lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
 RP> *light pollution*???

    Some are, these folks definatly aren't...

    This article I posted from Home Power magazine is about bringing
electricity to  rural area of Sri Lanka that has never had electricity. They
aren't using the power from their smallish solar panel to purposely light the
area around their thatched hut, it refers to the light that escapes the
building in very stark contrast to the darkness that has been the norm for
centuries. If yours is the only electric light for miles around even a 15 watt
small flourescent will stick out like a 1000w metal halide does in a rural
american community.
    This was about enabling a people to expand their lives and the
possibilities of their future with the application of a little light. Now
people can read, work on crafts, sew, etc. when before they were slaves to the
setting sun. Their lives can be fuller in a lot of respects than it could
before.
    DCK


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:05 EDT 1994
Article: 670 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-compute
Message-ID: <442_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-13-94  22:15, through the porthole we saw
-<Elvis Hargrove say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 EH> That's why I offered to supply a few of these extraordinarily
 EH> cheap!  I'll NEVER use all the monitors I got at the auction, and
 EH> they're exceptionally well built and rugged.
[snip]

 EH> I've got 'em.  Just send netmail!
 EH> ^..^

I'll keep you in mind if I ever get enough $$ to replace this
computer.  You're not ENTHUSIASTIC about them are you? :-))

Jeff

... Fish to Live, Live to Fish
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:06 EDT 1994
Article: 671 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:51:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-14-94  19:42, through the porthole we saw
-<Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
 TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
 TW> wind generator.

Yes, but it will most likely be quite a while before I can find
the little ad I tore out...

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:07 EDT 1994
Article: 672 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <479_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 63
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X-Status: 

hay ya'll,
   Sunday 31-Jul-94 15:02:53  
 been noticing that some people(tho no one in this echo;'>)  are advocating 
that electricVehicles would actually be more polluting than the messes of 
internalCombustion engines we have now. .                        ^ ;'>
 . .this is a bunch of completely and uterly foolishly inane NONSENSE!!!
in fact that STUPID concept doesn't even deserve much disscussion,
but let me tell you what i think anyway;'>
 even considering that ePower plants continue to mostly use EVIL sources 
like coal, oil, nuclear(fission), and hydra(when *conventional* dammed
hydraElectric dies it will go to Purgatory. . uhh no pun intended;)  anyway,
 even IF we do stay evil and not use clean sources like solar, hydrogen, 
atomic(fussion), wind, squirrel, geoThermall, ETC.  There is noWay that having
millions(billions?) of IC's *all over the place* smoking in you face 
and down squirrel holes, chokeing birds out of trees, and dripping oil 
*everywhere*  would be better than having all that polution efficiently
concentrated at a few large plants which can be regulated, and tuned, 
and kept clean much more (efficient)effectively
 But forget about all that there are much better ways of powering 
transportation than on the eclectric power grid.  
EV's would be much more cost effective and less poluting if charged via solar, 
both on the car and on a more powerful setup at home; and how about partial
charging via alternator (recycle! :).   Tho i think the best way to go is 
hydrogen IC,   you can generate enough current (i think,) to split water with 
only the internal alternator(not to even mention solar). this can be done in 
internaly(realtime? :) on the road. Can you say: "my car is out of gas, can i 
use your hose?". I can see the Evian stickers now, "Powered by the Swiss Alps".
A recolection system is not to unfeasable either. Can you say: "infinite fuel
supply" !!!  
 oh did i mention that probably the best way to run any IC (or even indirect
IC like steam)  is with the bladeless turbine, an invention of Nicoli Tesla
(a fellow Slav too i might add:). the bladeless turbine operates on friction
with a moving fluid instead of impact; traditional turbines (say at Hoover dam)
work by the fluid (water) hitting the blades head on and by the force of 
impact turns the turbine.  in Tesla's bladeless turbine the fluid runs *more*
parallel to the "turbine" and pulls it along via the friction betwixt the 
device and the fluid.  btw gas(air) IS a fliud.    nother thing, the bladless
turbine motor needs one moving part!
 on the subj of turbins and tubers:  the bladeless turbinE would likely be 
more efficient in hydra and wind electric;  dig this instead of damning the 
river (pun intended), a series of BT's, each running in to the next, and set
near the top of the water level and screened off(to prevent the enterence of 
creatures), with the river continuing to flow over, under, and around the setup
  Or on a smaller scale water flows into the turbine gravity feed style 
(ie. funneled into smaller and smaller pipes, greatly increasing the pressure).
  this can work for wind power too (funneling it down) but obviously wouldn't 
be feasible on a small scale. Tho all space that mass wind power plants take 
up i wonder if it wouldn't be feasible to use BT's, (again maybe even in 
series, so one flows into an other smaller. .)
 i hav been working on all of these things tho mostly in me head at this point
i think i'll be working on some practical results soon.
 btw all of the GOOD power sources i mentioned above can be used in large scale
power plants, yes especially squirrels. and think about this any plants that 
operate by burning things could easily be converted to hydrogen w/out much 
new equipment, just (get this) solar panels for electrolizing water and the 
equipment and plumbing to actualy do the electrolisys and get the H to the 
place where it is burned.

of course, i'm no expert ;'>
            zachariahCzeck@willits;'>
             jason organist   jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:08 EDT 1994
Article: 673 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <47a_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Aug 94 05:53:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 01-Aug-94 00:21:40
 willits,california,usa,earth,solsystem,westernarm,milkyway,primeplane...
hey  hey  hey  h-h-hey hey hey  hey  hey  heeeyy h-h-heyheyheyh-gitchYer
handsoffa maee-hey hey h-h-heyh-heyhey well i dont knowww. . . er. . um
. .wrong brainSector...
..hey hey h#@&#!%&
DAMN...sorry...
hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their location 
somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or somfin
 It's really cool to know where people are comming from  + it really sucks to 
read posts that go like this:  "Yeah, well way out here we don't even have
[insert appropriate commodity] and we have to drive 587,642 miles just to 
get to a place where you can even look at a picture of it." .
which always leaves scratching my head and saying that, yeah, i can see 
that sort of problem arising way out on Mars!
 cool to know the real date too
zachariahCzeck willits
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From lschlos@pica.army.mil Fri Aug  5 10:12:09 EDT 1994
Article: 674 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!ovation!metis.pica.army.mil!user
From: lschlos@pica.army.mil (Lanny Schlosberg)
Subject: EV Owners in NE USA
Message-ID: <lschlos-020894050305@metis.pica.army.mil>
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Sender: usenet@pica.army.mil (USENET Special Account <usenet>)
Nntp-Posting-Host: metis
Organization: Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey USA
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:03:05 GMT
Lines: 12
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X-Status: 

I have been in contact with other EV owners on the EV news list, but the
majority have been from California with a few from Florida and the mid-
west.  Are there any EV owners out there within a 50 mile radius of NYC
(I am about 40 miles west of the George Wash Bridge in NJ) and am int-
erested in where other EV owners get various parts, batteries at a good
price, local tech help, and how they have fared in the winter with their
EV's.  I have a 1980 Commuta-Car that I bought 13 years ago, and would 
be glad to share experiences.  If I can find a good buy for new batteries
and the EV auto insurance is not out of sight, I would like to put it
back on the road.  Do any insurance companies offer low rates for EVs.
Mine won't put the EV on the family policy.         lschlos@pica.army.mil
 


From kburtch@pts.mot.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:10 EDT 1994
Article: 675 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!pts-nntp!sun572!kburtch
From: kburtch@pts.mot.com (Kevin Burtch)
Subject: Re: Propane generators
Message-ID: <CtxGnn.9nD@pts.mot.com>
Sender: news@pts.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun572
Reply-To: kburtch@pts.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc, Paging Products Group, Boynton Beach, FL
References: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 21:50:11 GMT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 


I did some research on propane a couple of years ago and found out some
interesting things...

	Propane has an equivalant octane rating of 105 to 130 (depending on
	  who you talk to :) Due to its extreme expansion, going from a
	  compressed liquid to an ambient pressure gas cools the engine
	  intake drastically. Most conversion kits (for cars) actually have
	  heat exchangers to _heat_ the fuel for this reason.

	Propane conversions and dual-fuel systems are much _less_ fuel
	  efficient than burning gasoline unless the above point is taken
	  into consideration. In other words, if you plan to run (only)
	  propane, raise the compression way up! Then they are much _more_
	  efficient. More compression means more power from the same amount
	  of fuel. (they also take to super/turbo-charging quite well :)

	Propane burns _much_ cleaner and more completely than gasoline, as
	  it is already in a gaseous form by the time it gets in the engine.

	Propane engines last much longer because the oil lasts longer... It
	  is contaminated much less by carbon and unburnt liquid fuels, so
	  it not only doesn't break down as fast, but it also looks clean
	  longer :)

One drawback to using propane power is the fact that a (relatively) large 
amount of the exhaust contains water vapor. You have to use a stainless
steel exhaust. :)

Later,
Kevin

P.S. "top end lubrication" is not a problem for any engine designed to run
      on _unleaded_ gasoline, only for old leaded burning engines.

P.P.S. Why is this thread in alt.energy.renewable?
                                          ^ ^ ^   Propane is dead dinosaurs!







From brop9555@utdallas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:11 EDT 1994
Article: 676 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!convex!arco!news.utdallas.edu!not-for-mail
From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 03:43:13 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <31nlb1$kim@utdallas.edu>
References: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: infoserv.utdallas.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: 6994
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From brian@positron.amd.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:12 EDT 1994
Article: 677 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!amd!amdint.amd.com!txnews.amd.com!positron!brian
From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <Ctyrwo.ArD@txnews.amd.com>
Sender: news@txnews.amd.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: positron
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 14:50:47 GMT
Lines: 25
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:13 EDT 1994
Article: 678 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 3 Aug 1994 11:55:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31oekn$aja@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax




From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:14 EDT 1994
Article: 679 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: 3 Aug 1994 16:04:41 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <bailey-0308940914520001@hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From jocoats@amoco.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:15 EDT 1994
Article: 680 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!news
From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.075815.29936@amoco.com>
Sender: news@amoco.com
Reply-To: jocoats@amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Corportation
References: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 07:58:15 CDT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org




From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:16 EDT 1994
Article: 681 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 17:57:52 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:17 EDT 1994
Article: 682 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!cyanamid!ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com!sopchakd
From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Subject: Re: Wasted powerrREGISTER
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.132612.1@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com>
Summary: Wasted lighting?
Lines: 38
Sender: news@cyanamid.uucp
Organization: AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:26:12 GMT
Status: O
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In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian) writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com



From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:18 EDT 1994
Article: 683 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:43:33 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
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Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:19 EDT 1994
Article: 684 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural electrification
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:48:14 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
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Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:20 EDT 1994
Article: 685 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV standards enquiry
Date: 3 Aug 1994 10:51:06 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
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Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk Fri Aug  5 10:12:20 EDT 1994
Article: 686 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!nhopton.demon.co.uk!Nick
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Distribution: world
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Organization: Home, in Reading, England.
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In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From massagja@pegate.byu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:21 EDT 1994
Article: 687 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news.byu.edu!news
From: massagja@pegate.byu.edu (John Massaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car Newsclip
Date: 3 Aug 1994 21:23:33 GMT
Organization: Brigham Young University
Lines: 101
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Hi Guys.
I found this article here on the byu.news newsgroup.  I thought that
you all might find it interesting.  Enjoy!

---------snip---------

BYU Professor Seeks "Model A" Approach to Electric Cars


     PROVO, Utah (Aug. 1, 1994)--Total electric cars have been
available for decades, but it took a totaled automobile to inspire
a BYU professor to build a unique new electric car high in
practicality and low on cost. 
     Engineering professor Robert  H. Todd says he has long been
intrigued with the idea of building an electric car with "off the
shelf," or readily available items. His is a low-tech approach
where components designed for other purposes are  converted into
parts for an electric vehicle. 
     He wanted his car to extend beyond the realm of golf cart or
a very short distance vehicle.  Yet he also wanted to avoid the
$40,000 to $60,000 price tag associated with electric vehicle
prototypes from major automobile manufacturers who are scrambling
to comply with a California law.  After 1998 California will
require any company selling more than 35,000 vehicles a year to
have two percent of them be zero emission vehicles.  Electric cars
are the only known zero emission motorcar existing today.
     "Their researchers are going along the high-tech highway, but
the costs are so expensive,  the cars in development are beyond the
affordability and interest of the average American driver," Todd
says.  "I take my motivation from Henry Ford and his Model T and 
Model A cars.  Ford thrived on a foundation of simple parts put
together well.  Ford also had a strong ethic of giving people what
they wanted and could afford, something I firmly believe is a key
to manufacturing success."
     After one of his sons had an accident in the smaller of Todd's
two family cars, the engineer--who worked his way through school as
a mechanic--decided to test his hypothesis that he could build a
sensible, desirable car that would cost less than $10,000 and be
inexpensive to operate.
     "I wanted a car I could drive back and forth to work every
day," he explains. "I bought a 1993 Ford Festiva, took everything
apart and donated the engine and all the engine components to BYU. 
I listed the features and functions I wanted for the car and
brainstormed different ways to get those results."
     He obtained his motor from a company in New York, batteries
from California and other components from suppliers in Salt Lake
City and around the country.  As he analyzed the functions he
needed, he realized he was designing a family's second car, the one
driven on errands around town instead of the vehicle used for long
trips.
     "From the extensive research I did before I started the
project, I learned that 85 percent of all American cars are driven
fewer than 35 miles a day," he says.  "I wanted an affordable car
that filled the needs for that kind of use."
      Todd's electric motor has only one moving part, compared to
the multi-component standard internal combustion engine.  It will
produce 82 horsepowers at 120 volts and go approximately 100 miles
at 45 miles per hour on a single charge.  Its top speed ranges
between 65 and 70 miles per hour.
     "I charge it a couple of times a week by plugging it into a
normal 110-volt outlet overnight," Todd says.  "I estimate
electricity costs about a penny a mile, or about 100 miles to the
gallon if gasoline costs a dollar a gallon.  When gasoline is
higher than that, the electric car is even more economical."
     Among the advantages of an electric car is the maximum torque,
or power from the motor that occurs when the car is started.  "You
get a sensation of quite a bit of acceleration when you first
accelerate the car compared with an internal combustion engine
where you have to get the engine revved up to obtain reasonable
torque valves.  Electric cars are very quiet and simple in their
construction, which should allow them to be maintained easily. The
horsepower rating is similar to what you find in a regular car."
     Happy with his vehicle, but not content that it is a finished
product, Todd is working to solve new problems.  He is thinking of
ways to decrease rolling resistance in tires, so there is less
friction.  He is working on cooling and heating devices that are
not so draining on the batteries, and is experimenting with an
element from a 1000 watt hair dryer that could provide heat and
warm air and pass through the regular duct system.  A fellow
faculty member, Carl Sorensen, and a student have also been
designing a measure that indicates how much battery charge is left,
with the intent of using the existing fuel gauge.
     The weakest link in the electric car concept, Todd says, is
the battery.  "My car has 850 pounds of batteries and  the total
car weighs about 500 pounds more than it did originally.  This is 
still within the gross vehicle weight allowed for the vehicle. The
future of electric cars is really tied to new battery technology
that is inexpensive, recyclable and has more energy density pound
per weight."
     Todd says he has always enjoyed building things because of
what he learns in the process.  "This project has been a prime
example of that principle."
     He has gained support from Ford, who has donated another car
as a platform for testing electric car components.  California
Edison also has expressed an interest in his technology.

----------snip-----------     

John Massaglia
John_Massaglia@byu.edu    Workers of the World:  Relax!
http://sprawl.byu.edu


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:22 EDT 1994
Article: 688 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:24:35 -0000
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On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Nick Hopton wrote:

> In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:
> 
> > CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> > Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> > DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> > dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...
> 
> Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
> be obliged.

    I'm not sure what is going on exactly....I started posting some 
articles from home power here after uploading them to my unix host and 
then copying them into the message I was composing. Apparently the 
articles look fine on some systems and are total junk on others. Grrr...

   The look fine when I send them to myself but on AOL and some other 
systems they come out trashed. Darn, I'll have to stop posting them until 
I figure out what the problem is...
     DCK




From erg4@acpub.duke.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:23 EDT 1994
Article: 689 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!erg4
From: erg4@acpub.duke.edu (ERNESTO GRUNDSETH)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 00:24:21 GMT
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 62
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don walli (don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: From: dwalli@mtu.edu (don walli)
: Date: 20 Jul 94 13:33:30 GMT

: Everyone in this thread seems to have touched on, and subsequently
: ignored,
: what seems to be the most likely (most logical? maybe) solution for
: this
: whole process, and that's an overall systems approach. By that, I mean 
: using a system of several different technologies to solve the problem
: (in
: this case, vehicular power).

: Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: (assumed from water).
: What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: modules?
Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
not too good :(
: Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells, but
: electrolysis
: can happen at *very* low voltages, so really high power output is not 
: absolutely essential. And even if your PV cells aren't highly
: efficient--so
: what??? The sun is still *free*. Ross hasn't figured out a way to bill
: us for that one yet.

: So now you have H2, and you're (rightly) concerned about the potential
: output of an H2-powered IC engine. What about using a fuel cell
: instead? Your waste
: output (with the exception of the eventually-depleted catalyst) is very
: low, 
: and now you have electric power in your vehicle (or home, or
: municipality, or whereever you set up the fuel cells. And, yes, the
: fuel cell does introduce some more losses (as the affordable ones are
: not all that efficient). However,I would think that those losses might
: (*might*) be acceptable when
: you consider that the overall system here does not require the use of
: any non-renewable resources (in the generation of the fuel, anyway).


I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
the silicon enviromental???? just wondering

bye
Ernesto Grundseth
erg4@acpub.duke.edu

converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:24 EDT 1994
Article: 690 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:55:48 -0000
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Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
power and energy in any case. 
    DCK




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:25 EDT 1994
Article: 691 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:35:44 GMT
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In <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

|     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
|transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
|more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.

Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by a
metal box after all.

Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that.
Don't do anything that will prevent the utility workers from gaining
access to the box, or one day you will come home to find your entire
assembly in little bitty pieces in the stree.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:26 EDT 1994
Article: 692 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949957@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:39:17 GMT
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In <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:

|By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
|have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

I find this very hard to believe. FIrst, the best way to couple two wires
magnetically is to run them in parallel. Secondly unless these *parallel*
wires (I do mean wires in plural, you will need many loops to get any
practical power) were practically touching the power company's wires,
there would not be that much magnetic energy to tap.

|Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
|can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
|anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have

Either the laws of evidence or vastly different in sweden or the power
company has extremely incompetent laywers. Proving that the power in
the induction coils came from the power company's lines is trivial from
a physical perspective.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:27 EDT 1994
Article: 693 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950426@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:06 GMT
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu> <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
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In <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

|Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

Whenever laywers get to work you have a real problem. ;*)
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:28 EDT 1994
Article: 694 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950475@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:55 GMT
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu> <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
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In <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com> gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray) writes:

|: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
|: >photovoltaic effect.

|	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
|that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
|the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.

I would have thought that if the light did not escape it would be eventually
turned to heat anyway.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:29 EDT 1994
Article: 695 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 02:13:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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> -< through the porthole we saw Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:
> 
>  TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
>  TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
>  TW> wind generator.
> 
    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 
soliciting info to post online (never received)....DCK




From shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au Fri Aug  5 10:12:29 EDT 1994
Article: 696 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Shay Telfer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: (none)
Date: 4 Aug 1994 03:24:19 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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help




From communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca Fri Aug  5 10:12:30 EDT 1994
Article: 697 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!deep7.dial.mindlink.bc.ca!communicopia
From: communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca (Communicopia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electricty -- Public Consultation
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:01:46
Organization: MIND LINK! Communications Corp.
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Can anyone point me to a source of information on public consultation programs 
regarding utilitiy rate increases.  Case studies, methodology, etc. would all 
be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Scott Nelson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             C O M M U N I C O P I A
             Environmental Research and Communications
                 Ph: 604.875.9990          Fx: 604.875.9584
 WWW:  http://interchange.idc.uvic.ca/communicopia/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:31 EDT 1994
Article: 698 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: No Opposing Viewpoints P
Message-ID: <5f3_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 08:25:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 02-Aug-94 03:20:52
           santaRosa,CA,usa :

HHC> Don Kulha, Moderator of this conference, has apparently taken offense
HHC> with some of my postings and followups, making it clear that my
HHC> presence
HHC> is unwanted.  He sums up his opion this way:

HHC> >       This conference is for the discussion of clean, earth-friendly
HHC> > power technology. Nuclear does not meet any of those criteria. If you
HHC> > wish to continue this line of discussion please take it to sci.energy
HHC> > where your idea will find many entusiastic supporters. Lots of GE and
HHC> > Westinghouse folks frequent that discussion. We operate under the
HHC> concept
HHC> > that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles
HHC> away.
HHC> >
HHC> >    Don Kulha
HHC> >      Moderator HOMEPOWER

Harry,  I am *NOT* Don and i cannot speak for him, nor do i want to.
 i have not seen all the postings wich led to this. 
BUT i will tell you what i think ;'>
i do not believe that Don has taken offense to what you said, nor that
this was his reason for asking you to end that PARTICULAR discussion.

i do believe that he made a rebuttal to what you said and then, 
in the same post, but quite separately, he ASKED you to take an 
*offtopic* line of discussion elsewhere. 
 just read for yerself,  it's ALL right there in the passage YOU quoted!

i also very deeply disagree with you being asked to end the discussion
of nuclear power, as i think it definately belongs in the discussion of
alternative energy souces. I am informing Don of this as well.
-by the way this discussion group consists of the original 
 (noninternet)Fidonet ECHO (called Alternative Energy and Home Power)
 linked with the Usenet newsgroup  (?) alt.energy.alternative
 i'm on the Fido side :)

Harry, i disagree wholeheartedly with just about evey word you utered 
after this,  esp. the energy related stuff. But i sincerely hope you
will not end you correspondence here as i value free discussion, not
only for the exchange of ideas but because everyone has the innate 
right to say what they feel.
 i think (from what you said in this post) that you will find that
in this group(in general) peoples attitudes and beliefs are much 
different than what you have been led to believe (incl Don's :).
Please stick around...at least so we can  ;'> educate ;'>  you and
woop ya into shape ;)
Not now, but i for one have some meaty replies comming.

Too all-
  you know i've noticed that 99% of all angry or hurt replies come
  from people who, it SEEMS, just didn't read the offending msg,
  or, more broadly: They didn't listen fully to what to what was 
  said.
   here's some advice to ya'll -we all deserve to be listened to 
  fairly; and you, AT LEAST, owe it to a person to hear
  (really *hear*) what they have to say before ya get all pissed-off.
  Don't you think??

zachariahCzeck@willits ;'>
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:32 EDT 1994
Article: 699 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?!?  Noway!!
Message-ID: <5f4_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 09:03:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 02-Aug-94 04:02:06
santaRosa,CA,usa :

DK>      This conference is for the discussion of clean, earth-friendly
DK> power technology. Nuclear does not meet any of those criteria. If you
DK> wish to continue this line of discussion please take it to sci.energy
DK> where your idea will find many entusiastic supporters. Lots of GE and
DK> Westinghouse folks frequent that discussion. We operate under the
DK> concept
DK> that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles
DK> away.

Don, i totally disagree with you that nuclear power is not worthy 
of discussion here. this is a discussion group set up so that people
can FREELY exchange ideas and info on related subjects, right?
 now, before you start, i know that topics open for discussion here
are necissarily limited do to practicality, and limited resources
and energy especially on the Fido side. But along with discussion 
of alternate energy souces comes disc of all energy; and, 
specificaly, the context in wich Harry is using nucular ;) 
energy IS as an alternative.
Again, i believe you have no right to throw that discussion out.
 zachariahCzeck


Too all-
  you know i've noticed that 99% of all angry or hurt replies come
  from people who, it SEEMS, just didn't read the offending msg,
  or, more broadly: They didn't listen fully to what to what was 
  said.
   here's some advice to ya'll -we all deserve to be listened to 
  fairly; and you, AT LEAST, owe it to a person to hear
  (really *hear*) what they have to say before ya get all pissed-off.
  Don't you think??
zachariahCzeck@willits ;'>
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:33 EDT 1994
Article: 700 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Egt?  Get?  Teg?  Gte
Message-ID: <61b_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Brewster
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Where can I get a calibration curve for one of those?

Afraid you'll hve to make your own, Dick.  Actually since EGT is a relative
thing, a calibration chart is sort of gilding the lilly, but you certainly
could calibrate it with low temp melting metals to establish several
calibration points, or you could take one to a foundry where they have an
accurate pyrometer and just calibrate it against that.

-> Any reason why it won't work on a large engine?

Absolutely none.  They work FINE on big engines.  I know where there's a
Waukesha on natural gas with one of my EGT probes on it.  On a REALLY big
engine it's nice to mount it on a relatively light section of exhaust pipe to
avoid thermal lag.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:36 EDT 1994
Article: 701 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <61c_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:56:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Coats
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> I'd like one that runs on natural gas... Especially if it is fairly quiet...

That's up to YOU Jack. Mufflers are an art not a science.  <grin>  BUT, natural
gas engines really are somewhat quieter than gasoline and substantially so
compared to diesels.  YMMVH


-> Are there any 'cheap' methods of conversion from gas to nat'l gas?


Sure!  It doesn't get much cheaper than a gas pipe stuffed down the carb
throat to near the throttle butterfly. Or you can "spud" a gas carburetor by
drilling through the side near the venturii to introduce a vapor entry.
I have a method I use on Tillotson carbs where I just remove the float bowl and
screw a vapor connector straight into the pickup where the main jet goes for
gasoline.

In any or all these systems the vapor-fuel pressure must be regulated
carefully, but with a little care either system will remain fairly
throttleable, and therefore governable.

Crude, but CHEAP and I've used these systems for years.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:37 EDT 1994
Article: 702 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <61d_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 07:17:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the
-> "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it
-> great enough to worry about?

No.  Mag South is close enough unless you live somewhere with weird magnetic
deviation.

If you really want to get picky, SOLAR south moves slightly throughout the
year.  On any given day solar south is where the sun is at local solar noon.
(The spot where the sun is highest in it's travels.)

MEAN solar south is the average of these various annual locations.

   ^..^


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:38 EDT 1994
Article: 703 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hi
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:52:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 11
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
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Hello!  It's great to see a newsgroup I can really relate to!  I've missed
out on the first few weeks of this group because I couldn't find a news
server that carries it.  So I went the mailing list route.

Could someone send me a FAQ on this group (if it exists) or the "Welcome to
alt.energy.renewable" file (if it exists).  Thanks.

Ben Fiore
befiore@students.wisc.edu
(see HP#37 "PV in the City" for background)



From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:39 EDT 1994
Article: 704 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:18:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 69
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408040947.A3669-0100000@laminar.ph.utexas.edu>
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On Wed, 3 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 
Don,  
	I am glad to see your reply.  If you make sure you are correct,
then when people complain you can point out that you are using the
correct units and explain why.  That way you can win, and you would be 
providing a service by educating others. The more people understand 
alternative energy the better off we all will be.

	Now that you seem reponsive I'll try to help clear up some
confusion. Power is energy per unit time. That is, how quickly energy
is being used or produced. Energy is measured in watt-hours (or Joules,
3600 joules equal 1 watt hour) Power is measured in watts (1 watt is a 
Joule per second). 

A simple example: Running a 60 watt light bulb for one hour uses
60 watt-hours of energy.  A 100 watt light bulb run for a half
hour uses 50 watt-hours.  So the 100 watt light bulb uses more
power (i.e. uses energy faster) but in this example it uses
less energy because it is turned on for a shorter period of time.

What is also obviously important is the effeciency of light bulbs.
The power rating on a light bulb is determined by how much power
it uses, not by how much light it produces (how bright something
is can also be measured in power).  Compact flourescents are a good
idea because far more of the energy is converted to light than for
a regualar incandecent light bulb (which converts most of the energy
to heat), so they are just as bright for much less energy.

The above example is pretty straight foward but lets look at something
alittle less obvious. Take a 1500 watt refridgerator vs a 2000 watt
refidgerator. What would use less energy?  Well from what I've told 
said you have no way of knowing.  The power on appliences tells you
how much energy the applience uses while it is on, it does not
tell you what percentage of the time it is on.  So an effeicent
well insulated 2000 watt refidgerator may use far less energy
than a 1500 watt refridgerator even though it uses more power,
simply because its compressor would be running less often.

The same sort of comparison can be made for producing energy.
A 1000 watt low head hydro plant may produce far more energy
than A 2500 watt solar cell array, simply because it produce
energy all day and all night while the solar cells only
produce energy during part of the day. The solar cell array
produces energy faster (i.e. more power) but only when
the sun is shinning.  

Thats a start.  I think you'll be able to make better choices
if you have no confusion about these definitions.


Greg.





From dwalli@mtu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:40 EDT 1994
Article: 705 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 3 Aug 1994 18:34:08 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31p610$3qu@lilbuddy.hu>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com> <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lilbuddy.hu.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu

Sarah E. Flack (sflack@moose.uvm.edu) wrote:
: We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
: where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
: our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
: climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
: We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
: falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
: panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
: of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
: and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
: is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.
: 
: 			Sarah Flack
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:41 EDT 1994
Article: 706 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hydrogen storage
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:57:28 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
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>Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
>I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
>cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
>an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
>this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
>generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
>the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

There's a firm here in Madison, WI called Energy Islands International that
sells off the shelf PV and wind systems that power self-pressurizing
hydrogen electrolyzers.  The compressed hydrogen is then burned cleanly in
an engine-generator set.  I've heard it works great.

access:  Alex DePillis, Energy Islands Int'l
         111 King St., Madison, WI 53703
         (608) 284-0700



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:42 EDT 1994
Article: 707 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <hatunenCu0LLn.LCJ@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 14:29:46 GMT
Lines: 33
Status: O
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In article <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
>folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
>seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 

I would think you would see your role as at least partly an eductional
one. Why not use the terms correctly? To claim that correct terminolgy
confuses things is absurd. After all, if you drove on a long trip would
you say "I went 65 miles per hour per day"? That's how retarded misuse
of electrical terminology looks.

>I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
>a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
>week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
>magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
>permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
>power and energy in any case. 

I really hate to sound abusive, but it's almost impossible to discuss
this subject properly and usefully unless you do understand the
difference: it makes the difference between feasible and ridiculous.




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:12:44 EDT 1994
Article: 708 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:29:09 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31qtvl$85u@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
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In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 


It seems to me there is correlation between people using their own home 
made units and american programmers...........
I had a lot of problems working with some Americans, they could never adapt
to international standards (SI units) of writing the units for speed, 
distance, time, volume, current, voltage and a lot of other things.
(One of them was a formal professor ! (the Univ. feedback)).
It's very nice and easy using SI units, You don't need a lot of conversion
factors.
Is this antipathy against standards something typical for programmers or is it
just some american style of living ?

the opinion above is my own etc.....
/oö



From btwatts@vnet.ibm.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:45 EDT 1994
Article: 709 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!locutus.rchland.ibm.com!brophy.rchland.ibm.com!watts
From: watts@brophy.rchland.ibm.com (Byron Watts)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:26:14 GMT
Organization: IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31r1am$1fn2@locutus.rchland.ibm.com>
References: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <Pine.3.87.9408031906.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: btwatts@vnet.ibm.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: brophy.rchland.ibm.com
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>    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
>the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
>MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 

I called the number and found it disconnected....

--

Byron T. Watts (Tops)

My opinions are my opinions.

IBM:	     RCHLAND(WATTS)
Internet:  btwatts@vnet.ibm.com

There is an alarming increase in the number of topics I know nothing about.


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:46 EDT 1994
Article: 710 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 4 Aug 1994 11:57:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31r34h$6r9@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) writes:

"Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by
a
metal box after all."

     I've already done some prelim testing and that's about the speed of
it.

"Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that. Don't do anything that will
prevent the utility workers from gaining access to the box, or one day you
will come home to find your entire assembly in little bitty pieces in the
stree."

     Funny - up until I cleared it out a year ago the only way you could
tell there was a box anywhere in the bushes was by the humming noise.
Since I don't live anywhere near a nuclear reactor that might have leaked
I doubted it was the plants - so it had to be a transformer.

Shadowfax




From Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:47 EDT 1994
Article: 711 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2330-4-0!Darr.Hoag
From: Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org (Darr Hoag)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <142_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:05 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA -
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 

@00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
> hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their 
> location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or
> somfin

Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

... Electricians do it in hot boxes!


From Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:48 EDT 1994
Article: 712 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Paul.Leventhal
From: Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Paul Leventhal)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <157_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 22:36:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, M
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: nci@access2.digex.net (Paul Leventhal)
Date: 24 Jul 94 17:36:10 GMT


  
  In this ongoing controversy about whether nuclear power should be 
discussed here, one very basic and simple point is being ignored:

  Whether nuclear energy is clean or preferable or not, it is *not* 
renewable.  It's based on uranium, a finite resource.  Even if we 
reprocess spent nuclear fuel to recover plutonium and use that in breeder 
reactors (giving every nation that does so quick access to nuclear 
weapons in the process), uranium is still a finite resource.

  So if it's not renewable, why discuss it in alt.energy.renewable?

Steven Dolley


From Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:49 EDT 1994
Article: 713 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Cyber.City
From: Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Cyber City)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: electric scooters
Message-ID: <158_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 23:12:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cyber1@io.org (Cyber City)
Date: 24 Jul 94 18:12:52 GMT

Nick Lindert <nlindert@ichips.intel.com> wrote:
>
>I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have details
>on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

Try this company:

Ortho Kinetic, Inc.
P.O. Box 1647
Waukesha, Wisconsin 53187
(800) 824-1068
Fax: (414) 542-4258

Their scooters are sold mostly for disabled people, and cost is probably
over $2000.  Range is ~20 miles.

I have no connection to the company.


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:50 EDT 1994
Article: 714 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <159_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:16:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:16:24 GMT

In article ied@sundog.tiac.net, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
> Marc Visconte (Marc.Visconte@f25.n275.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
> : BP"PC>What ever happened to Mazda's water powered motor?

> : intend on selling it).  If someone ELSE copied it from YOU...
> : (remember the old Breck shampoo commercial?  "And SHE told two people,
> : and they EACH told two people...")

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

You don't believe in cars running on water?!  How about the Russian water
fuelled car???  They've been manufacturing it for years!  It's huge and it
containes political prizoners in the engine compartment.  When you listen to
the engine you can hear: get me some water, get me some water,...


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:51 EDT 1994
Article: 715 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: swimming pool heater
Message-ID: <15a_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:20:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:20:19 GMT

> On (11 Jul 94) Jody Gorran wrote to All...
> 
>  JG> If anyone out there in cyberspace is interested in a true
>  JG> application of renewable energy technology, ie. solar
>  JG> swimming pool heating, I'd be happy to make arrangements to
>  JG> send you a free booklet on this subject.

I am and I cannot find the original posting...






Chris.


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:52 EDT 1994
Article: 716 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <15b_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 07:08:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 25 Jul 94 02:08:04 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9407221629.A981-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:
>
>> A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
>> dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
>> generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
>> to clear out the silt. 
>
>    Lest someone actually believe Dave's statement about Hydro being a 
>non-renewable resource please keep in mind that he's speaking of large 
>scale hydro. Such may be the case (though the engineer I just spoke to 
>thought not but will check on this and get back to me) for the big stuff 
>but small hydro doesn't have this problem (if it did an afternoon with a 
>shovel ought to fix things in most cases). Hydro is one of the best 
>sources of energy in the renewables field.

I agree that almost any backyard power system can be made feasible by
someone who doesn't have to meet any economic goals, such as rasonable
power costs at a reasonable profit, and is willing to invest a lot of
free labor. And I wasn't addressing this narrow case. It has other
problems, such as drought. And, depending on the size of the backyard
dam, that could be an awful lot of shoveling. And of course, a lot
depends on just how much storage the installation needs, i.e., big damv
vs little dam. So yes, I was speaking of larger scales. And I got the
impression the person I responded to was also.

>> The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
>> very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
>> Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
>> downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
>> of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.
>
>    I'm skeptical about our inability to do anything about silting Dave. 
>We dredge habors, make canals etc. and can't deal with some silt? I hope 
>to get feedback next week from the people at Hetch hetchy and Hoover so 
>I'll let you know one way or another what I find out.

There are already major envorinmental problems due to harbor dredging.
The dredging here of the Oakland Estuary for deep-draft ships caused a
major flap, because it was going to be dumped at sea where local
fisherman say there are major fisheries. It's not "some silt". Check
the capacity of, say, Lake Mead, and try to invent an acceptable way to
get the silt out if it filled up. Sure, you could build a major
railroad to carry train loads of silt to the Sea oc Cortez. But that
would be a heavy financial burden.

Canal construction usually relies on finding some local use for the
dirt. In any case, it's not comparable to a silted up dam. I suspect
the problem at Hetch-hetchy isn't the same as at Lake Mead, since
Hetch-Hetchy gets its water from a relatively silt-free mountain
stream. But the Colorado river has always carried a lot of silt.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:53 EDT 1994
Article: 717 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculati
Message-ID: <15f_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 04:04:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Fatih A Rifki
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Locality is also important. For example a site close to a power plant
-> (electric) or tranformer/switchgear may throw the magnetic reading
-> immensely.

Are you SURE?  I've never seen such a local anomally attributable to AC power
systems.

^..^


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:54 EDT 1994
Article: 718 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <163_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Eric Gray
Status: O
X-Status: 

EG>DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
EG>  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is use
EG>  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

EG>Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

EG>Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage ifsealed properly. Gas goes
stale in a few months time.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * We are all prisoners of our own device!


From Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:55 EDT 1994
Article: 719 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-124-1208-0!Bob.Kerstetter
From: Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Kerstetter)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TCA: Renewables in Texas
Message-ID: <168_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: * MacSavvy * Dallas * Home of the POWERPC echo *
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dewey Coffman
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 23 Jul 94  19:32:45 Dewey Coffman wrote to  All:
 DC> Texans make the equipment necessary to power this next boom. We
 DC> make wind turbines near Wichita Falls and towers in El Paso.  We 
 DC> manufacture photovoltaic systems in Houston, Dallas and other
parts
 DC> of the state.  A unique solar dish engine is now being built in
 DC> Abilene.


Can you tell me who makes these things? Especially the Abilene project.
 -> Alice4Mac 2.4.2 E Blue Eval:05Jun94 


From Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:56 EDT 1994
Article: 720 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-382-806-0!Wes.Gainer
From: Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Wes Gainer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: deep cycles
Message-ID: <181_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 03:28:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Just Fishing  *  Georgetown, TX. (512) 930-5092  *
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bill Parker
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think that you will find that a deep cycle battery has larger plates 
that are design to be nearly full discharged before they are recharged.
They can be recharged many times before they do bad.
 
A car battery will not take many full discharged before being 
destroyed.
 
All big batteries forklift, train, boat, etc.
 
Hope that helps.


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:56 EDT 1994
Article: 721 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <186_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:41:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


   Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.

   With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
   if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
   plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
   need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
   is a 486/33, if that matters.

   I'm a programmer, but not an EE so any info would be greatly
   appreciated.

   Thanx, Bill
     
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 *  
                                               


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 722 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-234-2-0!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE POWER?
Message-ID: <192_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:05:43 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
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 > of course, i'm no expert ;'>

That's for *damn* sure.


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 723 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Developing countries
Date: 4 Aug 1994 13:09:08 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
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Does anyone reading this work with renewable energy or rural development or any
related fields in developing countries???

Does anyone know of a newsgroup that deals with rural development in
developing countries???

Thanks
Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
Cape Town




From dwalli@mtu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:13:02 EDT 1994
Article: 724 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 16:36:48 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
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ERNESTO GRUNDSETH (erg4@acpub.duke.edu) wrote: [in response to me]
[some stuff deleted] 
: 
: : Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: : gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: : (assumed from water).
: : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: : modules?
: Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
: the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
: per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
: hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
: So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
: meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
: get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
: not too good :(

But not too bad, either. And you don't have the waste products that 
other power sources produce. Did you know that the IC/gas engine in
most cars wastes around 85% of its power in waste heat? Most of
us are driving blast furnaces on wheels. 

: I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
: to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

Hunh?  First: what is "efficient"? 30%? 50%? 90%?  If you are only thinking
of the energy in->work out definition, I think you're missing some things.
We need to think about more than just that definition. If most of our re-
sources were infinite, and if we could auto-magically scrub the atmosphere
clean every week or so, and if good crops would grow each and every year on
bare rock, then we could go on thinking about simple definitions of 
efficiency. In our world, it's too complex for that.

: I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
: panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
: the silicon enviromental???? just wondering
: Ernesto Grundseth
: erg4@acpub.duke.edu
: converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!

I would be interested in knowing the answer to Ernesto's last question
as well. However, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison of
the environmental impact of manufacturing PV cells and, say, the impact
of manufacturing IC engines. (of course, this comparison would ignore the
already well-known impact of manufacturing the fuel that goes into petrol-
fired IC engines.)

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:31 EDT 1994
Article: 587 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
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IW> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
IW> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
IW> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
IW> DH> gasoline, etc?

They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
converting to propane <cheaper>

IW>They tend to be a bit more expensive, and the fuel consumption is
IW>going to be 10-20% more than gasoline, from what I've heard. Engines

True, they use more gas.

IW>that run on propane are supposed to last a lot longer, due to the
IW>fuel being cleaner. Better on the air too.

True also, to a point. There is a minor problem with "top end
lubrication" because you don't have the lubricating effect of the
pertro. derived fuel. Top end lubricators can be purchased but I find it
better to "smoke down" an internal combustion engine that may not be run
again for a while. I do this by useing a mechanics oiler <squirt gun>
full of Mystery Oil. It is a red colored oil that will burn in the
combustion chamber but at the same time completely coats all surfaces
includeing the exhaust valves. Just pop open the air cleaner and squirt
it into the intake untill a large cloud of smoke starts billowing out
the exhaust. When started again it will smoke untill it burns all the
oil off. I also put some in the crank case too. About one quart to four
is a good ratio. That tends to help lub the top end also.

IW>No expert here, but questions are welcome, as I do run a
IW>homebuilt DC gen on propane.

I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * You can check out but you can never leave!


From James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:31 EDT 1994
Article: 588 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (James Nepil)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CARS
Message-ID: <a38_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 06:08:59 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * (201)641-8167 14.4
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    I don't remember who was looking for the information on ELECTRIC CARS but
here is the information you need!
U.S ELECTRIcar
117 Morris St.
Sebastopol, Calif.
          95472
phone numer is (707) 829-4545
   I hope this helps you out ....Will try to get you more information if needed
:)
                            Best to you All !
                                James
* SPITFIRE v3.4


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:32 EDT 1994
Article: 589 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12volts
Message-ID: <a3e_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 12:07:42 GMT
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 GP>  On 07-17-94 Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...
 LD>
 LD>   I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

 GP>   Those draw a LOT of juice...like 7 to 13 amps each.  There are readily
 GP>   available 12 volt screw-in incandescent bulbs at all trailer supply
 GP>   places.  These bulbs look exactly like a standard indoor incandescent.

You're right, Gary, headlamps do draw a lot of current but I don't think you'd
use them for indoor illumination.  Larry was thinking of smaller bulbs more on
the order of tail light bulbs or dome light bulbs.  I'm familiar with the screw
in 12 volt bulbs you mention and they work very well.  One caution, though.  Be
careful not to inadvertently screw one of them into a 120 volt socket (they act
just like a flash bulb!).

 GP>   Possibly better yet, look into florescent lighting.  It is widely
 GP>   available for home, 120 volt use and it is super efficient.

There are also 12 volt florescent units available and they are also very
efficient.  As I replace light fixtures in my travel trailer, I'm converting
over to them.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:32 EDT 1994
Article: 590 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org (Fred Nowall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <a5e_9407291648@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 16:15:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: InterComm - 702-359-2666 -
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LDY>  I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.
LDY>Popeye

this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
popeye just wandering?
fred


From seiaopps@access3.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:33 EDT 1994
Article: 591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access3.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     I'm curious to see if there are any other people out there who might
>be Florida residents generating their own power through solar/AE. As near
>as I can tell, aside from an experiment or two at the local Vo-Tech
>school, no one in this area besides myself is doing any real harvesting of
>Florida Sunshine for power.
>
>Shadowfax
>
>

Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com

Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Association
seiaopps@digex.com


From windsor@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:34 EDT 1994
Article: 592 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: windsor@access1.digex.net (Windsor Software Corp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Rayovac Renewal Batteries
Date: 30 Jul 1994 18:06:31 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
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HBSAW (hbsaw@aol.com) wrote:
: I have been using the batterys for three months now with a Eagle hand-held
: GPS unit. This GPS has a hell of a currect drain. AAA batterys are set to
: 9 volts or 6 batterys. Current drain will pull down the batterys(any
: batterys) to 6.5 volts in 2 hours,at which time the GPS shuts down. I have
: rechargede the Rayovacs' 12 or 15 times and I have had no trouble with
: them holding a full charge. Most of the time I get 2 contuse hours out of
: them. I like them

Does anyone know of an inexpensive retailer of the Rayovac Renewal
batteries?  Many local stores stock them, but generally at list price.

--
Michael C. Smith
Windsor Software Corp, 8377 Cherry Ln, Laurel, MD  20707-4831
windsor@access.digex.net . 301-497-4211 voice . 301-470-0159 fax
Client-server NT, SQL Server, Unix, Sybase applications


From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:34 EDT 1994
Article: 593 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:35 EDT 1994
Article: 594 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:36 EDT 1994
Article: 595 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
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From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:36 EDT 1994
Article: 596 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqs0H.Jxz@eskimo.com>
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There is a little startup venture in Issaquah WA. that
has some fair size research contracts to build a gas
to electricity generator in the multi-kilowatt size range .

The product is cylindrical, with a central burner tube that
radiates outwards through some low pass optical filters onto
strips of Gallium Antimonide (GaSb) Photovoltaic "solar" cells.

It works. The low bandgap GaSb converts the near Infra-Red
radiation into electric power . 

Envisioned product configurations include cabin heaters that provide
electricity as a byproduct for colder climes and electric power for
hybrid vehicles that burn natural gas and run electric motors .

The car idea takes advantage of the fact that with continuous 
high temperature combustion there are little emissions to worry
about compared to internal combustion engines where the moment
of combustion is short compared to the combustion cycle so the
average temperature is relatively low leaving lots of byproduct
emissions.





From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:37 EDT 1994
Article: 597 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
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The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
photovoltaic effect.



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:39 EDT 1994
Article: 598 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
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Testing response procedure with environment set
to vi .


From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:39 EDT 1994
Article: 599 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: QUIET
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See new thread 77 this group.



From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:39:40 EDT 1994
Article: 600 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 21:16:49 GMT
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In <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

|> |    The rivers of the eastern states were "littered" with low head hydro 
|> |plants around the turn of the century with the water being used over and 
|> |over again. Rather elegant. The folks I know who are using small hydro 
|> |generally don't have dams, the one person I do know who uses a dam has 
|> |one a whole foot high.

|His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
|rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
|"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
|either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
|last couple years.

I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

|> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
|> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.

|     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.

The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
either the month before that, or two months before that.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:41 EDT 1994
Article: 601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 30 Jul 1994 23:54:03 -0000
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On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

> |His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
> |rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
> |"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
> |either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
> |last couple years.

> I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
> description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 
know exactly. The system has worked well and the board forming his dam 
generally has water spilling over the top. No great shakes since it's not 
causing bank errosion and he's usually only using a small percentage of 
the creekflow (what is used gets returned to the creek in short order so 
he's only temporarily "borrowing" a few GPM).
 
> |> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
> |> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.
> 
> |     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.
> 
> The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
> either the month before that, or two months before that.

   Thanks for the info....DCK




From Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:41 EDT 1994
Article: 602 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-353-460-0!Ron.Perepolkin
From: Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Perepolkin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 17:23:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Big Edge
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X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
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Hi all,

   I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
following passage.

   "The neighbors commented on how the usual
dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
>From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

   Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
*light pollution*???

   Every year poorly designed lighting systems waste more than $1
billion dollars of electricity by lighting nothing but airborne dust and
water vapour.  Think about it....why not shield the lighting as some
cities have or use low pressure sodium lamps?  You don't aim you car
headlights into the sky to see the ground.   You can see the glow of
major cities from 150 kilometers.  Ever been unable to sleep because of
a street light or neighbors flood lamp?

   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
Ask a pilot what they think of "well lit" airports.
People have gone to court and won cases against light trespass into
their yard.

   Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

   Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
see what they are stealing from you.
  If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

   The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector
lighting is cheap and will scare the hell out of a burglar trying to
raid your tool shed.  You will save money on your power bill as well,
and when you are outside yourself the light can still be left on as any
other light can.

   How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

   If you would like to get more information on conserving power by
reducing wasted light both on your own power bill and your cities power
bill (TAXES) write:   The International Dark Sky Association at 3545 N.
Stewart Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85716.

'nuff said.    RP
___
 X QMPro 1.02 41-5024 X Explain counter-clockwise to someone with a digital
watch


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:42 EDT 1994
Article: 603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <74a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:17:55 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 63
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 21 Jul 94 18:17:55 GMT



On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

>   Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per watt
>   installed.

    I don't know why I'd ever want to say that Stan, Current PV's are 
around 13% efficient and the panel cost is around $6 per watt of capacity 
and concieveably less. New 50 watt panels run about $300 and I can buy 
good used panels for around $3 per watt (I'm going to).

>   The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
>   30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
>   back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die in
>   a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
>   a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
>   exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

   Stan, the cells aren't going to die in 10 years or even 20. They 
degrade somewhat but most of that happens in the first 10 years. I know 
of a well instrumented system containing a 20 year old panel that still 
puts out 88% of it's rated output and hasn't lost any efficency in the 
last ten years. The knowledgeable folks I know estimate a lifespan of 
nearly a century with perhaps %25 degradation at 50 years. There are many 
panels sold now with a 15 year guarantee that they will still put out 90% 
of rated output.

> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar enthusiasts--
> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
> of producing electricity.

    I believe you don't understand why folks use solar panels Stan. This 
is a common misconception. I don't know of few people who have an 
available grid connection who have gone solar. Most folks using PV's are 
off the grid. Here in CA PG&E (the utility) gets $30,000 per mile to run 
power lines (best case situation) for the priviledge of paying them for 
the power you use. This isn't even an option in many parts of the planet 
where it's PV's, Wind, Hydro, fossil fuels or nothing.

     At *current* rates it will take about 16 years to pay off the 
tracked 400watt PV array (about 3.2kwh/day average) we're putting 
together. Of course I don't expect the current per kwh rate to remain the 
same so they payback should be shorter. There's other infrastructure 
involved in this system (batteries, controller, inverter) but it's going 
to be far cheaper than paying PG&E $25,000 for the priviledge of paying  
a monthly bill. Course the sun doesn't shine every day but often when it 
doesn't the wind blows which explains why we're buying a windplant as well.

     Some folks like to make their own power as a hobby, others because 
they want a degree of self sufficency. Me? I just want out of the power 
loop that supports coal, fossil fired and nuclear generation.

> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great deals!

      Speaking of which it's likely the cost of PV's will fall by about 
half in the next 3-4 years and continue to fall....

    DCK


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:42 EDT 1994
Article: 604 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <74b_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 22:33:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 31
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X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 21 Jul 94 17:33:15 GMT

In article <30k5ai$1gt@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Dean Weiten <dmw@access.mbnet.mb.ca> wrote:

[...]

>Of course, where I come from (Manitoba, Canada), we are lucky enough to be
>able to generate electricity from hydraulic sources - but we have also found
>this not to be quite non-polluting, as several northern native groups can
>attest.  In my ideal world, all power sources would be non-polluting, 
>and IMHO, they would likely be producing electricity.

A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
to clear out the silt. 

The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:43 EDT 1994
Article: 605 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <768_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 15:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
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Status: O
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 > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 > ICE.

 LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

Yea me too !

People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
More people are driving...(increasing population)

So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and 
better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
the same scale as the population increases their driving.

It still comes down to --

1) How the electricity is generated (coal, natural gas, SOLAR ?)
2) It is still easier to clean up (and maintain) 1 smokestack 
   than a 100,000+ car exhausts.  So even with the dirtiest 
   generation source you come out ahead.

This sounds like a push from the auto and gas industries to 
derail the Electric Vehicle from becomming a reality in the 
Eastern United States, by not allowing them to adopt the 
California ZEV requirements under the EPA guidelines.

If there are bills being pushed in Congress, can you provide 
the Bill numbers, and the originators name, so we can contact 
our Congress persons about this issue ?  Thanks.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.    
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:43 EDT 1994
Article: 606 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <769_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 : DK>At 10-15
 : DK>cents worth of electricity per hour, opportunity charging is one
 : DK>of the least expensive way to mitigate pollution in congested areas.
 : DK>Quick-charge stations are intended to be to the EV what the standard
 : DK>service station is to the ICE car.  You pull in, plug in, get a rapid
 : DK>recharge, and go on your way.

 SB> : 10 to 15 cents worth of electricity for a Quick charge???  Again,
 SB> NOT : LIKELY!!  10 to 15 dollars for a quick charge at a restaurant
 SB> seems more : likely.

 SB> Easy enough to estimate:

 SB> Around here 10 cents will get you perhaps 2kWh worth. That's about
 SB> 3HP-hours. And that's at off-peak rates.

 SB> Anyhow, ask yourself how far you could drive something bigger than
 SB> a skateboard with 3HP-hours worth of energy. Really slick small car
 SB> might take as little as 10HP to keep going on freeway at say 50MPH.
 SB> Then your dime will get you approx 15 miles or so before your next
 SB> 'quick stop charge'.
 SB> 

Stan,

The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
on that 10 cent charge.

On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:44 EDT 1994
Article: 607 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

 VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
 VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
 VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
 VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
 VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

 VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
 VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
 VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Hello,

It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:44 EDT 1994
Article: 608 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:36:54 GMT
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Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

[...]

>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.

Actually, Tucson was largely motivated by the fear that one of its
major industries might be destroyed by stray light, especially from
certain spectral lines issued by the mercury vapor lamps previously in
use. Tucson happens to be surrounded by astronomical observatories,
some say the largest cluster of observatories in the world. 

When I was a grad student in the Physics department at UofA, one of my
friends had the rather dreary research assignment of recording night
skyglow spectra from Kitt Peak; Pheonix was beginning to give Kitt Peak
some problems.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:45 EDT 1994
Article: 609 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: SOLAR
Message-ID: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
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I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 

I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:45 EDT 1994
Article: 610 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
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I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.




From cavery@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:46 EDT 1994
Article: 611 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!cavery
From: cavery@netcom.com (Christopher Avery)
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <caveryCttBqx.Jpq@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:13:45 GMT
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Tony Cygan (Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

:  -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

:  VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
:  VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
:  VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
:  VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
:  VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

:  VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
:  VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
:  VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

: Hello,

: It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
: counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


: ... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
: ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

I believe the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab (near Baltimore, MD) did 
quite a bit of research in this area but could not come up with a 
practical solution.  An alternative idea is to use ocean thermal energy to 
produce hydorgen, convert that to ammonia for transportion purposes, and 
then use the ammonia as a fuel for cars and electric plants.


From jmccabe@access.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:46 EDT 1994
Article: 612 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: jmccabe@access.digex.net (Joe McCabe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 31 Jul 1994 15:16:07 -0400
Organization: Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Status: O
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In article <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
>Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
>

And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

 >


-- 
Joe McCabe, P.E. 
Multimedia Manager
Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
jmccabe@digex.net  (202)289-5365   fax(202)289-5354


From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Aug  6 10:39:47 EDT 1994
Article: 613 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 12:32:53 -0700
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
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Message-ID: <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
silicon.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey, Dept. of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering |
| University of California Berkeley                               |
| bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu          Barney + Rush = Barney  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+


From CYBURG@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:48 EDT 1994
Article: 614 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: CYBURG@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: re:SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 22:05:48 -0000
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Eskimo North asked about  snow load

I've installed several systems in high snow load areas and seen crushed
modules that were not installled properly.  The most important single factor
is array angle.  Since the force on the modules varies as the cosine of the
pitch angle, the steeper the incline, the less perpendicular force will bear
on the module surface.
Another important requirement is that space be provided below the array,
since on a steeply inclined array a great deal of the snow will slide off if
it can.  Other important factors involve the structural strength of the
racking and supports.

Don Loweburg



From Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:48 EDT 1994
Article: 615 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-214-86!Dean.Kuusela
From: Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 19:13:00 GMT
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Hello all!

I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Thanks.

Catcha later,
Dean 


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:49 EDT 1994
Article: 616 of alt.energy.renewable
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From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <c6d_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
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X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
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 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 SB> From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 SB> Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 SB> Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
 SB> watt installed.
     ^^^^
 Right now you can get Solar power at $2-5.00 per watt with the
 panels only 15% effecient.  What makes you think this would 
 change to such a drastic amount (20,000 % more !).

 SB> On a good day you might get me to pay 10 cents per kilowatt hour-
 SB> which is based upon what I can already get electricity for. Now you
 SB> install for $1000 a single one watt cell and start pumping juice out
 SB> to me. 
 SB> Well, every thousand hours of daylight I'll send you a dime. Good
 SB> deal right- after all the sun is free?

 SB> The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
 SB> 30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
 SB> back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die
 SB> in a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
 SB> a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
 SB> exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

 SB> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 SB> enthusiasts-- 
 SB> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
 SB> of producing electricity.
 
 Using such illogical numbers that you do makes no sense.  If it 
 would cost such a drastic amount to get 100% effeciency no one
 would bother doing it.  You would just use more of the "cheap"
 modules to accomplish your goal.  (and many people already do it).

 SB> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
 SB> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great
 SB> deals! 
 SB> --
 SB> Stan Bischof
 SB> Hewlett Packard Sonoma County



... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:49 EDT 1994
Article: 617 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV's 3 of 4
Message-ID: <c6e_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 15:21:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James W Dille
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting James W Dille to All <=-

 JWD> From: jwd@cec1.wustl.edu (James W Dille)
 JWD> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:21:49 GMT

 JWD> The pack exchange idea sounds workable, but if, as I have heard, it
 JWD> will $4,000 per year to keep oneself in batteries (on the average),
 JWD> with pack exchange that cost will still have to be borne by someone. If
 JWD> you exchange packs 100 times a year, wouldn't the fee have to be at
 JWD> least $40 a shot? And if an exchange will take you another 100 miles,
 JWD> it's pretty expensive and slow going.

I've never heard these numbers, can you provide me with 
information on where you heard it from ???

If true then I don't think it would be a plausible solution
and would not happen as the market would not accept it, and 
some other way of fast charging would come out.  

The big hurdle for battery pack exchange as I see it, is 
conformity.  Every maker of Electric Cars would have to agree 
on a standard and then keep it, pretty much forever, so it's
not likely to happen soon.

Tony


... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:50 EDT 1994
Article: 618 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: electric scooters
Message-ID: <c6f_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Nick Lindert
Status: O
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 -=> Quoting Nick Lindert to All <=-

 NL> From: nlindert@ichips.intel.com (Nick Lindert)
 NL> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:42:09 GMT

 NL> I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have
 NL> details on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

 NL> -- 
 NL> Nick Lindert
 NL> Mailstop: JF1-19
 NL> Home: (503)614-0731
 NL> Work: (503)696-9074

Nick, there are a few people selling these things.

You might try calling the following numbers as a place to 
start.

-- Doran Motor Co. at (702)359-7356
-- Green Motor Works at (818)766-3800

Tony

... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:51 EDT 1994
Article: 619 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:59:05 -0000
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On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
> a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
> One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
> There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
> have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
> Do they need extra support ? 
> 
> I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
> sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?

     I have some friends with a solar powered repeater at 7000 feet in 
the mountains of Northern CA. The PV's sit on a 30 foot pole next to the 
block repeater shack. My buddy has some pics of the array which looks 
like the array is sitting about 10 feet in the air surrounded by snow 
with no trace of the shack. The panels are now two years old and are 
holding up just fine. They actually make more power per unit time during 
the winter because they're cold.
   DCK
 



From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:51 EDT 1994
Article: 620 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Date: 1 Aug 1994 00:10:22 -0000
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On 25 Jul 1994, Dean Kuusela wrote:

> Hello all!
> 
> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

    Maybe Don Lowenburg will pitch in his $.02 here. Anyway, If you can 
consider a diesel if you plan to use it much. If a diesel isn't 
acceptable and you use gasoline consumption will likely be about double. 
To give you an idea a Coleman Maxxa 5000w unit burns 1 gallon in 1.2 
hours at 50% load, a Honda EG5000 will run 2.6 hrs on 1.9 gal fuel at %50 
load and a 2500w Honda can run 3 hrs at half load on 1 gallon. My friend 
claims 4 hours per gallon at 2500w output with his 6kW China Diesel genset.
     DCK
P.S.- Were I going to buy a gas genset I think I'd look for a 1800 rpm Onan.




From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:52 EDT 1994
Article: 621 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu286.94@netcom.com>
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Dean Kuusela (Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Hello all!

: I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
: boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
: hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

If you assume 80% efficiency for the generator and drive system, then you 
need 5000/.85 = 5880 Watts input to run it.

5880 W * (1 hp/746W) = 7.9 hp

Light duty generator engines consume about .55 to .6 lb of fuel per 
horsepower hour and gas weighs about 6.8 lb/gallon so your fuel 
consumption will be about:
(7.9 hp)*(.6lb/hphr)*(1/6.8 lb/gal) = .7 gal/hr

Can't help you with the brand, but if you're going to use it for several 
thousand hours get one with a good engine.  The cheapos wear out in one 
to two thousand hours.  Also, if you are really going to be putting out 
5000 watts for long periods of time, get a bigger generator.  5000 Watts 
for 8 hours a day is 1200 kWhr a month which is more than twice the power 
consumed by the average urban house.  Are you setting up a machine shop 
in the woods or something?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:53 EDT 1994
Article: 622 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
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Joe McCabe (jmccabe@access.digex.net) wrote:

: >>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
: >>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
: >>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
: >

: And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
: sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
: in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:55 EDT 1994
Article: 623 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: IEEE article
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ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 

It was a very impressive site . 

They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
They array field was bought by some outfit that has
been stripping it down and selling the panels .


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:56 EDT 1994
Article: 624 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Date: 1 Aug 1994 07:50:23 -0000
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On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
> field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
> they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 
> 
> It was a very impressive site . 
> 
> They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
> They array field was bought by some outfit that has
> been stripping it down and selling the panels .

     Yes, I believe this was called the Carrizo Plains Demonstration Site 
and I thought (off the top of my head) that is was 70MW...could easily be 
wrong on the latter. This is the source for most of the "Quadlams" you 
see advertised. Carizzo Solar Corp. (1-800.776.6718) is the outfit 
selling off the panels (mainly thru dealers). There must be a mountain of 
them as they've been selling 'em off for some time. Their ad states "The 
Cheapest Photovoltaics in the World".
      A lot of the panels are pretty scuzzy...but still work. The bronze 
unframed "Quadlams" were used with reflectors to boost output and while 
they look pretty funky a 4 panel set puts out around 90w and can be had 
for about $200....Some dealers are selling the better framed panels that 
weren't cooked with reflectors...a three panel framed set putting out 
about 100w runs about $350...sometimes less. Some folks at SEER had the 
100w sets for $300....they looked pretty good and are likely what I'll be 
buying soon.
      I kinda envision folks mining the desert for PV's :-).
            DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:57 EDT 1994
Article: 625 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:08:02 -0000
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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:58 EDT 1994
Article: 626 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Phantom Power Suckers
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:23:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 231
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010148.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 

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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:58 EDT 1994
Article: 627 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hackleman on EV's
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:24:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 110
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010134.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 

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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:59 EDT 1994
Article: 628 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: OOPS, 37 not 50...
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:28:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010145.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


    Before someone figures it out let me say that the Hackleman article 
on EV's if from Home Power mag #37, not 50....it's from page 50 of that 
issue. 
     DCK

P.S. - Hope you folks are enjoying these articles....




From seiaopps@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:40:00 EDT 1994
Article: 629 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access1.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: U.S Solar Energy Manufactueres
Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:19:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31j3p5$pks@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

I noticed several inquiries here concerning locating manufacurers of 
solar energy technologies.

The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology maintains a 
database of our membership directory.

This database can be access via world wide web at http://solstice.crest.org.

The database allows you to search vendors by technology and should soon 
be available via gopher and ftp.  




"Solar energy--do the bright thing"


Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Assosciation
seiaopps@digex.com
(202) 383-2600


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:00 EDT 1994
Article: 630 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <845_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding why the switch contacts not rated for DC tend to burn up, it gets all
involved with calculus and such.  However, there is an
easy way to visualize it.  The electrons in DC flow continuously, and
when the switch tries to break the flow, an arc results and burns up
the contacts.  On ac, the flow of electrons goes to zero twice every
cycle.  When you open the switch, before a significant arc can be established,
the flow of electrons goes to zero.  In effect, in DC the switch being opened
stops the current flow, and in ac the switch
keeps the flow of current from starting up again.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:01 EDT 1994
Article: 631 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <846_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 

* In a message originally to All, Stan Bischof said:
 > From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 > Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 > don walli (dwalli@mtu.edu) wrote:
 > : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the
 > electrolysis
 > : modules? 
 > : Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells,
 > Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 > enthusiasts--

 > the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to
 > the cost
 > of producing electricity.

You are correct, but in the past utility companies were subsidized to connect
to people "off the main roads".  THis is gradually being
phased out.  Power companies generally charge for hook-up if you are over 200
feet from existing lines, plus a charge per foot.  Charges per foot are 
(examples that I know of) between $3.50 and $10 per foot.  If you are 1200 feet
from the nearest power line, you can expect to pay between $3,500 and $10,000
for the prividge of paying a monthly bill.  You can buy a pretty nice AE system
for those dollars.  In this case, the cost of maintenance is the only factor,
not the original cost of the system.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:02 EDT 1994
Article: 632 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?
Message-ID: <84e_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 08:12:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 


 EH> Well, let's put it this way.  My shop air is from a
 EH> 1950 Cadillac compressor
 EH> driven by a 3/4 horse three phase motor, which was
 EH> built in 1966.  In all those
 EH> years, most of the time left ON 24 hours a day, (NO
 EH> leaks) I have yet to add

DK>      Hi Elvis....I appreciate your interesting post and
DK> the spirit in which you're sharing information but we are
DK> getting a wee bit off the conference topic here....Thanks
DK> for your cooperation.....DCK

now let's not go over board here. I think that quite often a lot of good 
conversation and ideas get quashed because they are "off topic",
not always necissarily in this echo mind you, but perfectly valid and 
useful info get shut down far too often (at all is too often:)
 Now granted i don't know the full story but Elvis' post and the one he was
responding to can have alot to do with the subjects in this echo since the 
eficient working of the compressor (or any machine) is directly related to 
the amout of energy it needs to run, wich is important not only in the general 
NEED to not be wasteful, but is much more immediate for someone who is trying
to run the thing off there home PV cells or gerbil wheel generator. . .right?
 thanks
  zachariahCzeck
   jason organist

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:02 EDT 1994
Article: 633 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Allen.J_.Filson
From: Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Allen J. Filson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <85b_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:15:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: afilson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Allen J. Filson)
Date: 22 Jul 94 19:15:44 GMT

Greetings,

Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the 
"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it 
great enough to worry about?

Possibly someone could direct me to a source for this kind of information 
relative to the design of energy efficient housing and alternate energy 
systems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Allen


From Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:03 EDT 1994
Article: 634 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Timothy.Wilson.x4040
From: Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <85c_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:24:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:StorageTek
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: timothyw@stortek.com (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Date: 22 Jul 94 22:24:48 GMT

There is a mailing list that is specifically for HPVs.  To subscribe, mail 
a message to Majordomo@zippy.sonoma.edu.  Do not put anything on the subject 
line.  In the body of the message place this line:

   subscribe hpv <your email address>

I hope this helps

Tim


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:04 EDT 1994
Article: 635 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 04:17:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

     Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
water powered but related to such.....
    DCK


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:04 EDT 1994
Article: 636 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <85f_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 18:14:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: John Thompson
Status: O
X-Status: 

JT> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
JT> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
JT> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
JT> DH> gasoline, etc?

JT>    I was just out at a job today, and what do I see but a
JT>    Colman generator 12hp (The green ones) hooked up to
JT>    a propane tank from a gas grill.
JT>    The carburator looked like it was the stock unit with
JT>    very little modification.

Uhoh, the secrets out of the bag. I have seen MANY systems set up as
dual fuel generators that uses the original, unmodified, stock carb.
They can still shut off the propane and fill it with gas and fire it up.
I have seen 2 typs of set-ups. The first uses a plug on the bottom of
the carb <on MOST small engines> in the fuel bowl <where the float is>.
Just let the fuel run out, put a fitting in the hole <most are pipe
thread but be VERY careful to get the same thread and don't cross thread
the hole, a fuel bowl for one of these carbs can be more than an entire
rebuilt carb for a 357> in the bottom of the carb and hook up a line. If
you use a demand type regulator on the propane system <yes, very similar
to scuba regulators> you are ready to roll. You may have to choke it
harder than starting on gasoline, if the regulator has a button that
causes the reg. to force a shot of gas into the hose this works better
than the choke lever. If the fitting has a shut off in the bottom of the
carb then you can just shut off the propane and fill it with gas. The
other system uses a demand type reg. and just a hose to the air horn
<the piece of tubeing or cast metal between the throat of the carb and
air cleaner> or even into the filtered side of the air filter and the
"draw" of the engine will suck propane into the engine. In both cases
the throtle still works the same.

We use to have an engine that almost never was run other than once every
month or two to keep it in operating condition. Instead of filling the
tank we drained it and left it empty. That way we didn't have to wory
about the fuel going stale. We rolled our accetalene <sp?> torch out
ther, stuck the tip in the throat of the carb, turned on the accet. and
fired the engine up. We could vary the fuel flow with the knob on the
torch. We would run it for a while to bring the engine up to temperature
and then would "smoke it down" with mystery oil.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:05 EDT 1994
Article: 637 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <877_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
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X-FTN-To: RON PEREPOLKIN
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RP>    San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
  > due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental


I agree w/you about light pollution, but you are wrong on the following
part:

RP>    Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
  > burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

RP>    Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
  > created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
  > investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
  > that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
  > see what they are stealing from you.
  >   If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
  > level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
  > to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

If it's dark in both inside and outside, your eyes no matter how adapted
to the dark will not see something outside unless there is light to
reflect off of whatever is out there.

If it's dark outside and lit inside, you see NOTHING outside, only your
reflection  in the window.

If it's light outside and lit inside, you are at a standoff, he can see
you, you can see him.

NO, the BEST situation is dark inside, and well lit outside.

I agree you dont have to put a dozen flood lights out there, and
whatever you do put up should be shielded to light your yard, not the
sky or your neighbors, but you need the light out there...


And THEN you go on about:

RP>    The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
  > install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
  > lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector

I can't believe you'd do this all in the same msg. You bitch about light
pollution, and then just substitue it for noise pollution. I'll tell you
what, I can sleep all night long with my neighbors lights shining into
my bedroom, (and they do) but when one of the 4 neigbors dogs start
barking, there is nothing I can do to get to sleep. With the light, I
draw my drapes or simply roll over, I can't do anything about the "yappy
dog" you seem to like.

Your points about light pollution are valid, and I agree. If you chck
out the origin you'll see I'm in Tucson and support the light ordaninces
100% and even argue with my neighbors about their lights.

But your points about security are wrong, and your substitution for one
form of pollution for another is mis-guided, at best, and hypocritical
at worst.


RP>    How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
  > stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
  > unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
  > actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

Even in Tucson w/all our light ordainces, I still have to leave the city
to see the  milky way, something I do almost every single sat or friday
night. :)


eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Pointing out errors in ones beliefs aka Porcupine Bathing


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:06 EDT 1994
Article: 638 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <878_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
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X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: TONY CYGAN
Status: O
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TC> The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
  > stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
  > your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
  > on that 10 cent charge.

TC> On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
  > batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
  > town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

TC> Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
  > rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
  > to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

TC> I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
  > quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
  > power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
  > margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.


Or even better yet if the station or grociery store puts up a
photo-voltaic system on the roof to make his one electricy for his
"customers" use!

I for one am ready! :)

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Intelligence is limited only by the openess of the mind.


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:06 EDT 1994
Article: 639 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <879_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DEAN KUUSELA
Status: O
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DK> Hello all!

DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used p
  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * To a little fish, the waters are always deep.


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:07 EDT 1994
Article: 640 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:55:19 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu
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averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

>The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
>photovoltaic effect.

Wow.  I wonder how efficient it is, and if they would work in the hot sun.
Maybe you could line your oven with panels in order to recover some energy.

Tony dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:07 EDT 1994
Article: 641 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:27:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

"I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 
I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?"

     I have 8 Solarex MSX-30 panels, a little smaller than the ones you
mention and have seen them take quite a pounding during some of our recent
summer storms. I know this isn't quite the same as snow-loading, but that
one such storm removed several of my fence panels from behind the array
(an idea of it's strengeth).
     Another thought would be Duravolt panels - they're really rugged,
backed with stainless steel and fronted with a Tefcell (sp?) coating which
water and debris just slide off of. I have no doubt they could take
whatever kind of snow loading you could envision as worst-case, and then
some.

Shadowfax




From baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:08 EDT 1994
Article: 642 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ennews!enuxsa.eas.asu.edu!baravind
From: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind)
Subject: NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid, Lithium cells comparison
Message-ID: <Ctv7qx.DC1@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Sender: news@ennews.eas.asu.edu (USENET News System)
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Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:42:33 GMT
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Hi,
Can anyone give me some leads as to where to find a comparison of the four leading rechargeable battery technologies NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid and Lithium with respect to parameters such aas charge time, discharge time, memory effects, peak power, capacity at various current levels, internal impedance, size etc.

If there is a FAQ about this please let me know.

This info is needed for a research project I am doing in school and I need the info in a couple of days.

Please post or mail to baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu

Thanks
Bhaskar


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:09 EDT 1994
Article: 643 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, appliances
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:42:04 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
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How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC 
house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC 
house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce
EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?

I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiring
for my home.

Post, or email:  Tony Dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mercury@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:09 EDT 1994
Article: 644 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl4.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: mercury@crl.com (Kenneth Greenlaw)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Tesla newsgroup?
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:26:42 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [login: guest]
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I'm looking for a newsgroup relevant to the work of Nicola Tesla.  Anyone 
know of such a place?

Regards,

	Ken



From belanos@acs.bu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:10 EDT 1994
Article: 645 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!Jacob.Sutton
From: belanos@acs.bu.edu (Jacob Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jobs in windpower?
Date: 2 Aug 1994 01:45:19 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 10
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[4058]
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Status: O
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Are there any?
I'm going to be graduating with my engineering bachelors next May and
have a strong interest in windpower. 
I was wondering what the job market was like and where windpower firms
are located.
any info would be much appreciated.

Jacob Sutton
email: belanos@acs.bu.edu
 


From drais@crash.cts.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:11 EDT 1994
Article: 646 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!crash!jhd.cts.com!drais
From: drais@crash.cts.com (John H. Drais)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Organization: The Paracelsian Order
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 15:52:42 GMT
Message-ID: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]
References: <Pine.3.87.9407271443.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> <31921i$qo6@search01.news.aol.com>
Keywords: waterbed cover
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> ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
>mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

>Shadowfax

Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may be too 
hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or over easy?)

By the way, we have a 264 acre retreat in sunny Southern CA that we are just 
now looking to convert and switch off the grid. This is a great place to visit 
for anyone wishing to help us design a practical system affordable by a poor 
monastery. If anyone responds I will provide particulars.



John H Drais
The Paracelsian Order
18372 Highway 94
Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA


From Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:12 EDT 1994
Article: 647 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-352-111-0!Jim.Richardson
From: Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Richardson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
Message-ID: <ecb_9408012147@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 23:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 

VLV> From: vescovo@netcom.com (Victor Lance Vescovo)
VLV> Date: 15 Jul 94 04:09:22 GMT

VLV> Ivo Roper (ivo@remarque.berkeley.edu) wrote:
VLV> : Howdy all,


VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have
VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current
VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be
VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a
VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
VLV> by
VLV> flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Two solutions, 1, use two contra-rotating flywheels, one located within
the other, the precession can be balanced out in this manner. Or 2)
couple the flywheel inductively, with electromagnets, and allow the
flywheel to precess all it wants on magnetic bearings. Both solutions
are workable, both are used in other applications.

                Jim Ricardson
        Patriot, pagan and proud of it.


From etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:13 EDT 1994
Article: 648 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas40c45!etxgfn
From: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se (Gunnar Forsgren)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Followup-To: sci.energy
Date: 2 Aug 1994 10:02:26 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:23661 alt.energy.renewable:648
Status: O
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I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
for producing energy for a whole household.

There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.

Can some of you provide me with information regarding

- U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
  small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.

- Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 

- Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.


I will then pass this info on to my brother.

Thanks,

---
Gunnar Forsgren             <etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se>
Ericsson Telecom, Sweden    "Personal interests"





From sflack@moose.uvm.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:14 EDT 1994
Article: 649 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 2 Aug 1994 12:03:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
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We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.

			Sarah Flack


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:14 EDT 1994
Article: 650 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:48:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
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On 2 Aug 1994, Gunnar Forsgren wrote:

> I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
> in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
> those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
> Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
> for producing energy for a whole household.
> 
> There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.
> Can some of you provide me with information regarding
> 
> - U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
>   small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.
> - Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 
> - Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.

  I would reccomend your brother speak with Don Harris a manufacturer of 
small hydro power plants (408.425.7652) about this and also Bob-O Schultz 
at Electron Connection (916.475.3401). I'm not aware of any clubs per say.

  The Best body of information on small hydro has probably been in Home 
Power magazine. Over the years they've run many articles on this and the 
related types of stuff you mention (inverters, batteries, controls, 
etc.). International surface subscriptions run $20 or $44US via airmail 
to Europe. If your brother is sincerely interested in home-scale power 
generation it would be a great investment. The article text and graphics 
from the first 37 issues is on the SOLAR-1 CDROM (ISO9660 format) which 
is priced at $32 including shipping via air to Europe (Issue 42 is just 
now reaching subscribers). You can reach Home Power Magazine at 
916.475.3179 or via mail at PO. Box 520, Ashland Oregon 97520 (they also 
sell the CD).




From ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:15 EDT 1994
Article: 651 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!ericom!olga!ehsbpe
From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: olga.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT
Lines: 21
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X-Status: 

I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
the grid". 
There are some people in Sweden that has been found
"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
been crossing their grounds.
The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
electric hazards etc.

Borje Persson 


From gbalfanz@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:16 EDT 1994
Article: 652 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!gbalfanz
From: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz)
Subject: Best charge controller?
Message-ID: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 14:47:26 GMT
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What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.

I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.

Thanks, Greg


                      \|/
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         /      \ /  \  Deep in the heart of Texas hill country
        /  /\    /    \        /\    /\  /\      /\            /\/\/\  /\
       /  /  \  /      \      /  \/\/  \/  \  /\/  \/\  /\  /\/ / /  \/  \  
      /  /    \/ /\     \    /    \ \  /    \/ /   /  \/  \/  \  /    \   \
     /  /      \/  \/\   \  /      \    /   /    \
  __/__/_______/___/__\___\__________________________________________________



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:16 EDT 1994
Article: 653 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 2 Aug 1994 15:05:21 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31lnbh$fht@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
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In article 20109@ericsson.se, ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
> I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
> energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
> the grid". 
> There are some people in Sweden that has been found
> "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
> been crossing their grounds.
I have been playing with fluorecent light under a big power line for a lot of
years ago. We had a small cabin that was "powered" by induction from the HV-line.
We used an old fence wire to collect the power.
> The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
> between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
> The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
> has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
> By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
> have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
> Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
> can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
> anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
> understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
> magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
> electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
> electric hazards etc.
> 
> Borje Persson 
It's still a crime in Sweden, and I think they regulary "ping" the 
lines for checking the impedance of the net. With the technologi of today it's
easy to detect if something has been changed and also the position of the change.
So I think you must have a better lawyer than the power company..............
/oo
The opinion above is my own etc.







From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:17 EDT 1994
Article: 654 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching power through induction
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:44:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
use.
     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.


Shadowfax




From bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:18 EDT 1994
Article: 655 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!brian
From: bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 2 Aug 1994 17:29:44 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 11
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[2601]
Message-ID: <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> 
 <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>  
 <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
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Status: O
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In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
> -- 

It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
S.D. Brian


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:19 EDT 1994
Article: 656 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Space Blanket
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:39:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
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In article <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>, drais@crash.cts.com (John H.
Drais) writes:

"Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may
be too hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or
over easy?)"

     I had thought of this but, if I remember correctly, they make a lot
of crinkling noise when you move them around. The throw-blankets are soft
and quiet, and cost less than $10 at Target. The girlfriend is very
thermally efficient with a sunny disposition, but never over easy ("hey -
you're on my side again! <pokepoke>) <G>.

Shadowfax




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:20 EDT 1994
Article: 657 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775843917@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:11:57 GMT
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Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
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In <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 

I don't know too many people who have a 120 foot drop across their property.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:20 EDT 1994
Article: 658 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
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From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:14:03 GMT
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
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In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:

|In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
|| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
|| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
|| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

|More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
|Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
|energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
|silicon.

The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:21 EDT 1994
Article: 659 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCtx9I8.E01@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:15:44 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>,
Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS <ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.

I believe they would have to be parallel to the poser lines.

>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.

Generating voltage is trivial. The problem is what happens when you add
a load to the line. What kind of current can you draw, and what happens
to the voltage when you draw the current. If attaching a 220 volt lamp
causes the voltage at the lamp to sag to 10 volts, it becomes kind of
useless.

>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

That actually is possible, but not with the simple induction pickup
described above. I would think that a workable secondary (in effect you
are creating a transformer) would be quite noticable to the
authorities, and might involve some trespass.

>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

That sounds like an urban legend.



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:21 EDT 1994
Article: 660 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Power consumtion of Peltier junction coolers
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:01:38
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170138@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <793_9407161839@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <3145uq$dgo@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:24:10 -0400
Status: O
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datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:
   (Ken Finney) writes:
   >Has anyone out there measured the current at 12 V required to run one
   >of those coolers that use Peltier junctions to stay cold?  I understand
   >they
   >aren't very efficient and take quite a lot of current, but how much is "a
   >lot"?

   I believe that the average 36 quart size cooler using Peltier junctions
   uses 4.5amps at 12vdc with an average of 2.5 amps per hour if the cooler
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		
   is thermostatically controlled.

I think you mean an "average of 2.5 amps," (or even "2.5 amp-hours per hour.")
but not "amps per hour"
Amps are a unit of current, Coulombs per second 
(i.e. 6 times 10^18th  electrons per second) 
So you want the average current, (not the average current per hour, 
which doesn't really make sense unless your talking about how the
current changes (which you are not).

A small point but I think it is important to be precise on these 
technicall matters.



Useing your numbers the cooler would use 54 Watts peek, and 30 Watts
average, which does seem kind of high to me (but not wrong.)
I would think what is inside and how often it is used  is also a big 
factor in effecientcy.  I remembering from years ago but I think
Peltier junctions are about 4% effecient. The Navy invested large
sums of money in the early 60s trying to make them more effecient
and basicly ran out of thing to try.  If they were very effeicent
they would be used instead of solar cells since they work both ways--
electricity to heat and heat to electricity. (this last sentence
is a vast over simplification so don't flame me for it).

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:22 EDT 1994
Article: 661 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:06:24
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
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In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:38:01 -0400
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datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:

   {....]
   My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
   solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
   battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Thats 550 watt hours per day.
A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu.


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:23 EDT 1994
Article: 662 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:41:17
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 46
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References: <191_9407261707@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
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In-reply-to: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org's message of 24 Jul 94 19:37:00 GMT
Status: O
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Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton) writes:
   The main draw back is that DC is a little different in that running
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      
   wires all over a large house could add enough resistance that the end
   voltage drop might be a problem. Also, switching might prove to be a
   slight problem. If you use 12 volt lights and install normal switches in
   the wall to turn them on and off the contacts in the switches may <in
   the future> give you a problem. One of the tecnical people on this echo
   could probably explain why. I have heard that placeing a capacitor
   accross the switch can help cure the problem.

The difference is not DC vs AC it is 12volt vs 120 volt.  
Using lower voltage requires more current for the same power.
Power (watts) = Current (amps) times Voltage (volts).
Since voltage losses to resistance is proportional to current 
you get more of a voltage drop with less current. (this can 
be compensated for by using lower resistance wires.)  You
can also measure the resistance of the wires using an ohm
meter.  Since Voltage = Current times resistance, you can 
tell howmuch voltage you will lose.  The best and safest 
way to do this is to get a length of the identical wire you are
useing and see what the resistance is. Then you could calculate
how much voltage drop you had for a given current and length of
wire.

As for swithes wearing out: The problem is from arcing when the
switch is turned on and off.  This has to do with the inductance 
of the whole circuit. Inductance causes the voltage to change
inorder to try to maintain the current that is flowing. It seems
that there would be two effects: the higher current causing of 12V
systems, but since the voltage is lower there would be less 
tendency to arc (i.e. break down the air between the contacts, 
which means current will flow through the air until the gap 
got bigger).  Off hand I don't know which is worse but if
the 120V swithces have problems with 12V systems then the higher
current must be the dominate effect, or the inductance of 12V systems
is higher.


This is just off the top of my head...

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu






From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:24 EDT 1994
Article: 663 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: WATTS are POWER !
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:21:13
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2172113@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <CtKMxK.22E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 27 Jul 1994 05:57:44 -0000
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In article <Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

   > Please folks:
   > 
   >  a WATT is a measurement of POWER not ENERGY
   > 
   > "my xyz gismo generated 250 watts par day" is a totally meaningless statement!
   > 
   > If you want ENERGY you can use all sorts of units, such as WATT-HOURS.

	Hi Stan, 
	    I agree with you about the watt-hours bit but over the years 
   when I've used that expression I get a bunch of "huh?'s" so I pretty much 
   gave up and go with the flow. It's a valid technical point but most folks 
   understand what is meant on some level. Feel free to use the right 
   expression but don't feel too bad that the majority is likely to keep on 
   saying "watts" instead.
	    What's the proper abreviation for the term?
		 DCK

Sorry I didn't read this before correcting you again.
But it makes a big difference if people use the wrong units.
Everyone who gets their power from the grid gets billed for 
kilowatt-hours which is of course 1000 watt-hours.  Perhaps 
if you used kilowatt-hours you would not get the "huh's" 
because it is more common. IF you get "huh?'s" maybe you should
try to learn to explain what you mean so people can understand them.

Using incorrect terminology does NOT make anything
clearer. It makes people who understand these thing question whether
you know what your talking about or not. If you say your light
bulb uses 250 watts per day then I don't understand what you mean
on any level What I do understand is that you don't understand what 
your talking about! 


lewis@chaos.ph.utexas
 


From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:24 EDT 1994
Article: 664 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:04:58 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

brian (bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

: > What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
: > -- 

: It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
: to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
: that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
: see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
: S.D. Brian

Oh, I see.  The cops can't tell red people from green people under the 
lights (:-)


Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:25 EDT 1994
Article: 665 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:20:58
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2182058@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <hatunenCtnotr.1oy@netcom.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 28 Jul 1994 22:50:12 -0000
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In article <Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

   > Watts/hour being a nonsense unit, I will assume you mean output is
   > 50-60 watts, meaning he can't even light a decent reading lamp with
   > this. Since 60 watts for 24 hours is 1440 watt-hours, this sounds
   > correct. But my goodness, what's the point?

     I'll pass on your first comment; I phrased it that way for clarity.
								^^^^^^^
wrong!
   Everything is relative to one's mindset. I can power 3 OSRAM compact 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes some people don't care if they are wrong and confusing.

   flourescent 20 watt lamps with 60 watts and read quite well (with one 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes, 3 times 20 equal sixty so this makes sense. 

   lamp). In the context of your grid connected home 1400 watts might not 
   seem like a lot but to folks off the grid it's heaven. 1400watts will 
							  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   power a 16 cu. ft Sunfrost refridgerator for a day plus run 6 OSRAM 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   20w lamps for 5 hours and let me run my stereo for 6 hours. My energy 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
wrong
   budget for our new home is a little less than 4kWh per day. I wish we had 
yeah! you got it right!				 ^^^^
   a hydro resource because I'd love to have an extra 1400 watts day...
wrong!						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

How many times have you been correct any you still get it wrong!
This is not clarity it is  wrong and confusing. Energy is not
power. They mean two different things.  You do not help matters
by confusing the two. You do not go to the store and buy 50 Watt-hour 
solar pannels, you buy 50 Watt pannels.  1400 watts will POWER anything
that uses 1400 watts or less for as long as you have 1400 watts.  If
you have 1400 watts plus storage then you can power things that that
use more than 1400 watts as long as you generate more Energy (watt hours)
than you use! 

learn the difference between energy and power.
If you want help e-mail me directly and I will try to clear it.
Really If you give the impression that you know what you are
talking about then people will take you more seriously.  You give
impression of someone that is entusiastic and has gotten alternative
energy to work for you, but also someone who's opinions and advice
I would  be cautious of.

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From gmoke@world.std.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:25 EDT 1994
Article: 666 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!world!gmoke
From: gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:35:02 GMT
Lines: 7
Status: O
X-Status: 

: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
: >photovoltaic effect.

	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.



From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:26 EDT 1994
Article: 667 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:33:36 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
>FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
>between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
>of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
>use.

Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 

Besides, theft is a criminal law matter.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:26 EDT 1994
Article: 668 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:48:10 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:

>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> 
> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
         DCK
 



From Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:27 EDT 1994
Article: 669 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power...& Miracles
Message-ID: <441_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 16:40:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ron Perepolkin
Status: O
X-Status: 


 RP>    I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
 RP> posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
 RP> electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
 RP> following passage.

 RP>    "The neighbors commented on how the usual
 RP> dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
 RP> with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
 RP> From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

 RP>    Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
 RP> lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
 RP> *light pollution*???

    Some are, these folks definatly aren't...

    This article I posted from Home Power magazine is about bringing
electricity to  rural area of Sri Lanka that has never had electricity. They
aren't using the power from their smallish solar panel to purposely light the
area around their thatched hut, it refers to the light that escapes the
building in very stark contrast to the darkness that has been the norm for
centuries. If yours is the only electric light for miles around even a 15 watt
small flourescent will stick out like a 1000w metal halide does in a rural
american community.
    This was about enabling a people to expand their lives and the
possibilities of their future with the application of a little light. Now
people can read, work on crafts, sew, etc. when before they were slaves to the
setting sun. Their lives can be fuller in a lot of respects than it could
before.
    DCK


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:27 EDT 1994
Article: 670 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-compute
Message-ID: <442_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-13-94  22:15, through the porthole we saw
-<Elvis Hargrove say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 EH> That's why I offered to supply a few of these extraordinarily
 EH> cheap!  I'll NEVER use all the monitors I got at the auction, and
 EH> they're exceptionally well built and rugged.
[snip]

 EH> I've got 'em.  Just send netmail!
 EH> ^..^

I'll keep you in mind if I ever get enough $$ to replace this
computer.  You're not ENTHUSIASTIC about them are you? :-))

Jeff

... Fish to Live, Live to Fish
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:28 EDT 1994
Article: 671 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:51:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-14-94  19:42, through the porthole we saw
-<Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
 TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
 TW> wind generator.

Yes, but it will most likely be quite a while before I can find
the little ad I tore out...

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:28 EDT 1994
Article: 672 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <479_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 05:00