From vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov Fri Aug  5 10:09:52 EDT 1994
Article: 562 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!air16.larc.nasa.gov!vac
From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Additives; Beware!
Date: 28 Jul 1994 21:45:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 659
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3198tk$rl7@reznor.larc.nasa.gov>
References: <c36_9407241059@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: air52.larc.nasa.gov
Status: O
X-Status: 

|> -<On 07-01-94  22:22, while looking for dry land
|> -<Bill Basford said to All:
|> 
|>  BB> Speaking of lubricants for fuel efficiency, has anyone on this
|>  BB> conference had any experience with those Teflon oil additives that
|>  BB> promise to reduce engine friction, prolong engine life and improve
|>  BB> fuel mileage?
|> 

Is That Additive Really A Negative?
Article and Photos by Fred Rau
ROAD RIDER/August 1992/Pg 15

   Information for this article was compiled from reports and studies by
the University of Nevada Desert Research Center, DuPont Chemical Company,
Avco Lycoming (aircraft engine manufacturers), North Dakota State
University, Briggs and Stratton (engine manufacturers), the University of
Utah Engineering Experiment Station, California State Polytechnic College
and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Lewis Research
Center.

   Road Rider does not claim to have all the answers. Nor do we care to
presume to tell you what to do. We have simply tried to provide you with
all the information we were able to dredge up on this subject, in hopes
it will help you in making your own, informed decision.

You Can't Tell The Players Without A Program

   On starting this project, we set out to find as many different oil
additives as we could buy. That turned out to be a mistake. There were
simply too many avail able! At the very first auto parts store we
visited, there were over two dozen different brand names available. By
the end of the day, we had identified over 40 different oil additives for
sale and realized we needed to rethink our strategy.
   First of all, we found that if we checked the fine print on the
packages, quite a number of the additives came from the same
manufacturer. Also, we began to notice that the additives could be
separated into basic "groups" that seemed to carry approximately the same
ingredients and the same promises.
   In the end, we divided our additives into four basic groups and
purchased at least three brands from three different manufacturers for
each group. We defined our four groups this way:
   1.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with PTFE (Teflon TM) added.
   2.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
added.
   3.) Products containing (as near as we could determine) much the same
additives as are already found in most major brands of engine oil, though
in different quantities and combinations.
   4.) Products made up primarily of solvents and/or detergents.
   There may be some differences in chemical makeup within groups, but
that is impossible to tell since the additive manufacturers refuse to
list the specific ingredients of their products. We will discuss each
group individually.

 The PTFE Mystery

   Currently, the most common and popular oil additives on the market are
those that contain PTFE powders suspended in a regular, over-the-counter
type, 50-rated petroleum or synthetic engine oil. PTFE is the common
abbreviation used for Polytetrafloeraethylene, more commonly known by the
trade name "Teflon," which is a registered trademark of the DuPont
Chemical Corporation. Among those oil additives we have identified as
containing PTFE are: Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Lubrilon, Microlon, Matrix,
Petrolon (same company as Slick 50), QMl, and T-Plus (K-Mart). There are
probably many more names in use on many more products using PTFE. We have
found that oil additive makers like to market their products under a
multitude of "private brand" names.
   While some of these products may contain other additives in addition
to PTFE, all seem to rely on the PTFE as their primary active ingredient
and all, without exception, do not list what other ingredients they may
contain.
   Though they have gained rather wide acceptance among the motoring
public, oil additives containing PTFE have also garnered their share of
critics among experts in the field of lubrication. By far the most
damning testimonial against these products originally came from the
DuPont Chemical Corporation, inventor of PTFE and holder of the patents
and trademarks for Teflon. In a statement issued about ten years ago,
DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist, J.F. Imbalzano said,
"Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for
internal combustion engines."
  At the time, DuPont threatened legal action against anyone who used
the name "Teflon" on any oil product destined for use in an internal
combustion engine, and refused to sell its PTFE powders to any one who
intended to use them for such purposes.
   After a flurry of lawsuits from oil additive makers, claiming DuPont
could not prove that PTFE was harmful to engines, DuPont was forced to
once again begin selling their PTFE to the additive producers. The
additive makers like to claim this is some kind of "proof' that their
products work, when in fact it is nothing more than proof that the
American legal ethic of "innocent until proven guilty" is still alive and
well. The decision against DuPont involved what is called "restraint of
trade." You can't refuse to sell a product to someone just because there
is a possibility they might use it for a purpose other than what you
intended it for.
   It should be noted that DuPont's official position on the use of PTFE
in engine oils remains carefully aloof and noncommittal, for obvious
legal reasons. DuPont states that though they sell PTFE to oil additive
producers, they have "no proof of the validity of the additive makers'
claims." They further state that they have "no knowledge of any advantage
gained through the use of PTFE in engine oil."
   Fear of potential lawsuits for possible misrepresentation of a product
seem to run much higher among those with the most to lose.
   After DuPont's decision and attempt to halt the use of PTFE in engine
oils, several of the oil additive companies simply went elsewhere for
their PTFE powders, such as purchasing them in other countries. In some
cases, they disguise or hype their PTFE as being something different or
special by listing it under one of their own tradenames. That doesn't
change the fact that it is still PTFE.
   In addition, there is some evidence that certain supplies of PTFE
powders (from manufacturers other than DuPont) are of a cruder version
than the original, made with larger sized flakes that are more likely to
"settle out" in your oil or clog up your filters. One fairly good
indication that a product contains this kind of PTFE is if the
instructions for its use advise you to "shake well before using." It only
stands to reason that if the manufacturer knows the solids in his product
will settle to the bottom of a container while sitting on a shelf, the
same thing is going to hap pen inside your engine when it is left idle
for any period of time.
   The problem with putting PTFE in your oil, as explained to us by
several industry experts, is that PTFE is a solid. The additive makers
claim this solid "coats" the moving parts in an engine (though that is
far from being scientifically proven). Slick 50 is currently both the
most aggressive advertiser and the most popular seller, with claims of
over 14 million treatments sold. However, such solids seem even more
inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After
all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a
cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in
places with low pressures and virtually no friction.
   This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives
containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said
in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked
at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental
effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a
dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is
actually depriving parts of lubricant."
   Remember, PTFE in oil additives is a suspended solid. Now think about
why you have an oil filter on your engine. To remove suspended solids,
right? Right. Therefore it would seem to follow that if your oil filter
is doing its job, it will collect as much of the PTFE as possible, as
quickly as possible. This can result in a clogged oil filter and
decreased oil pres sure throughout your engine.
   In response to our inquiries about this sort of problem, several of
the PTFE pushers responded that their particulates were of a sub-micron
size, capable of passing through an ordinary oil filter unrestricted.
This certainly sounds good, and may in some cases actually be true, but
it makes little difference when you know the rest of the story. You see,
PTFE has other qualities besides being a friction reducer: It expands
radically when exposed to heat. So even if those particles are small
enough to pass through your filter when you purchase them, they very well
may not be when your engine reaches normal operating temperature.
   Here again, the' scientific evidence seems to support this, as in
tests conducted by researchers at the University of Utah Engineering
Experiment Station involving Petrolon additive with PTFE.
   The Petrolon test report states, "There was a pressure drop across the
oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." In
addition, oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after using
the treatment, indicating that engine wear didn't go down - it appeared
to shoot up.
   This particular report was paid for by Petrolon (marketers of Slick
50), and was not all bad news for their products. The tests, conducted on
a Chevrolet six-cylinder automobile engine, showed that after treatment
with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1
percent. Also, output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1
percent, and fuel economy improved from 11.8 percent under light load to
3.8 percent under heavy load.
   These are the kind of results an aggressive marketing company like
Petrolon can really sink their teeth into. If we only reported the
results in the last paragraph to you, you'd be inclined to think Slick 50
was indeed a magic engine elixir. What you have to keep in mind is that
often times the benefits (like increased horse power and fuel economy)
may be out weighed by some serious drawbacks (like the indications of
reduced oil pressure and increased wear rate).

The Plot Thickens
   Just as we were about to go to press with this article, we were
contacted by the public relations firm of Trent and Company, an outfit
with a prestigious address in the Empire State Building, New York. They
advised us they were working for a company called QMI out of Lakeland,
Florida, that was marketing a "technological breakthrough" product in oil
additives. Naturally, we asked them to send us all pertinent information,
including any testing and research data.
   What we got was pretty much what we expected. QMI's oil additive,
according to their press release, uses "ten times more PTFE resins than
its closest competitor." Using the "unique SX-6000 formula," they say
they are the only company to use "aqueous dispersion resin which means
the microns (particle sizes) are extensively smaller and can penetrate
tight areas." This, they claim, "completely eliminates the problem of
clogged filters and oil passages."
   Intrigued by their press release, we set up a telephone interview with
their Vice-President of Technical Services, Mr. Owen Heatwole. Mr.
Heatwole's name was immediately recognized by us as one that had popped
in earlier research of this subject as a former employee of Petrolon, a
company whose name seems inextricably linked in some fashion or another
with virtually every PTFE-related additive maker in the country.
   Mr. Heatwole was a charming and persuasive talker with a knack for
avoiding direct answers as good as any seasoned politician. His glib
pitch for his product was the best we've ever heard, but when dissected
and pared down to the verifiable facts, it actually said very little.
   When we asked about the ingredients in QMI's treatments, we got almost
exactly the response we expected. Mr. Heatwole said he would "have to
avoid discussing specifics about the formula, for proprietary reasons."
   After telling us that QMI was being used by "a major oil company," a
"nuclear plant owned by a major corporation" and a "major engine
manufacturer," Mr. Heatwole followed up with, "Naturally, I can't reveal
their names - for proprietary reasons."
   He further claimed to have extensive testing and research data
available from a "major laboratory," proving conclusively how effective
QMI was. When we asked for the name of the lab, can you guess? Yup, "We
can't give out that information, for proprietary reasons."
   What QMI did give us was the typical "testimonials," though we must
admit theirs came from more recognizable sources than usual. They seem to
have won over the likes of both Team Kawasaki and Bobby Unser, who
evidently endorse and use QMI in their racing engines. Mr. Heatwole was
very proud of the fact that their product was being used in engines that
he himself admitted are "torn down and completely inspected on a weekly
basis." Of course, what he left out is that those same engines are almost
totally rebuilt every time they're torn down. So what does that prove in
terms of his product reducing wear and promoting engine longevity?
Virtually nothing.
   Mr. Heatwole declined to name the source of QMI's PTFE supply "for
proprietary reasons." He bragged that their product is sold under many
different private labels, but refused to identify those labels "for
proprietary reasons." When asked about the actual size of the PTFE
particles used in QMI, he claimed they were measured as "sub-micron in
size" by a "major motor laboratory" which he couldn't identify - you
guessed it - for "proprietary reasons."
   After about an hour of listening to "don't quote me on this," "I'll
have to deny that if you print it," and "I can't reveal that," we asked
Mr. Heatwole if there was something we could print. "Certainly," he said,
"Here's a good quote for you: 'The radical growth in technology has
overcome the problem areas associated with PTFE in the 1980s'"
   "Not bad," we said. Then we asked to whom we might attribute this gem
of wisdom. DuPont Chemical, perhaps?
   "Me," said Mr. Heatwole. "I said that."
   QMI's press releases like to quote the Guinness Book Of Records in
saying that PTFE is "The slickest substance known to man." Far be it from
us to take exception to the Guinness Book, but we doubt that PTFE is much
slicker than some of the people marketing it.

The Zinc Question
   The latest "miracle ingredient" in oil additives, attempting to usurp
PTFE's cure-all throne, is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which we will
refer to here after as simply "zinc."
   Purveyors of the new zinc-related products claim they can prove
absolute superiority over the PTFE-related products. Naturally, the PTFE
crowd claim exactly the same, in reverse.
   Zinc is contained as part of the standard additive package in
virtually every major brand of engine oil sold today, varying from a low
volume of 0.10 per cent in brands such as Valvoline All Climate and
Chevron l5W-50, to a high volume of 0.20 percent in brands such as
Valvoline Race and Pennzoil GT Performance.
   Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear
additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically
blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc
in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal con
tact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating
conditions. However, if you race your bike, or occasionally play tag with
the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under
extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent
scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.
   However - and this is the important part to remember - available
research shows that more zinc does not give you more protection, it
merely prolongs the protection if the rate of metal-to-metal contact is
abnormally high or extended. So unless you plan on spending a couple of
hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to
your oil is usually a waste. Also, keep in mind that high zinc content
can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling.
   Among the products we found containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
were Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP
Engine Treatment With XEP2. The only reason we can easily identify the
additives with the new zinc compounds is that they are required to carry
a Federally mandated warning label indicating they contain a hazardous
substance. The zinc phosphate they contain is a known eye irritant,
capable of inflicting severe harm if it comes in contact with your eyes.
If you insist on using one of these products, please wear protective
goggles and exercise extreme caution.
   As we mentioned, organic zinc compounds are already found in virtually
every major brand of oil, both automotive and motorcycle. However, in
recent years the oil companies voluntarily reduced the amount of zinc
content in most of their products after research indicated the zinc was
responsible for premature deterioration and damage to catalytic
converters. Obviously this situation would not affect 99 percent of all
the motorcycles on the road - however, it could have been a factor with
the newer BMW converter - equipped bikes.
   Since the reduction in zinc content was implemented solely for the
protection of catalytic converters, it is possible that some motorcycles
might benefit from a slight increase in zinc content in their oils. This
has been taken into account by at least one oil company, Spectro, which
offers 0.02 to 0.03 percent more zinc compounds in its motorcycle oils
than in its automotive oils.
   Since Spectro (Golden 4 brand, in this case) is a synthetic blend
lubricant designed for extended drain intervals, this increase seems to
be wholly justified. Also, available research indicates that Spectro has,
in this case, achieved a sensible balance for extended application
without increasing the zinc content to the point that it is likely to
cause spark plug fouling or present a threat to converter-equipped BMW
models.
   It would appear that someone at Spectro did their homework.

Increased Standard Additives (More Is Not Necessarily Better)
   Though some additives may not contain anything harmful to your engine,
and even some things that could be beneficial, most experts still
recommend that you avoid their use. The reason for this is that your oil,
as purchased from one of the major oil companies, already contains a very
extensive additive package.
   This package is made up of numerous, specific additive components,
blended to achieve a specific formula that will meet the requirements of
your engine. Usually, at least several of these additives will be
synergistic. That is, they react mutually, in groups of two or more, to
create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or
adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective
effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more
of something that was already included in the initial package.
   If it helps, try to think of your oil like a cake recipe. Just because
the original recipe calls for two eggs (which makes for a very moist and
tasty cake), do you think adding four more eggs is going to make the cake
better? Of course not. You're going to upset the carefully calculated
balance of ingredients and magnify the effect the eggs have on the recipe
to the point that it ruins the entire cake. Adding more of a specific
additive already contained in your oil is likely to produce similar
results.
   This information should also be taken into account when adding to the
oil already in your bike or when mixing oils for any reason, such as
synthetic with petroleum. In these cases, always make sure the oils you
are putting together have the same rating (SA, SE, SC, etc.). This tells
you their additive packages are basically the same, or at least
compatible, and are less likely to upset the balance or counteract each
other.

Detergents And Solvents
   Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not
make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like
Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like
"quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine."
   Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed
to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be
flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83
percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and
isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of
standard mineral oil.
   In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of
what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of
leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they
are designed to strip away such things.
   All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up
your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is,
unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove
your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip
away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of
solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful
metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
   As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at
least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the
Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient
engine designs of the past two decades.

The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
   At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have
witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of
certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted
engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their
"miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop
it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine
would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the
effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of
the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we
saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be rid den around
the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing
demonstration - until you know the facts.
   Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and
Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a
similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new,
identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for
bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive
included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20
hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then
both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight
hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor
miracle."
   After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down
and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both
engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated
with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was
not evident on the untreated engine.
   This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil
additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in
the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil
flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and
particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been
reported as a major area of engine damage.

The Racing Perspective
   Among the most convincing testimonials in favor of oil additives are
those that come from professional racers or racing teams. As noted
previously, some of the oil additive products actually are capable of
producing less engine friction, better gas mileage and higher horsepower
out put. In the world of professional racing, the split-second advantage
that might be gained from using such a product could be the difference
between victory and defeat.
   Virtually all of the downside or detrimental effects attached to these
products are related to extended, long-term usage. For short-life,
high-revving, ultra-high performance engines designed to last no longer
than one racing season (or in some cases, one single race), the long-term
effects of oil additives need not even be considered.
   Racers also use special high-adhesion tires that give much better
traction and control than our normal street tires, but you certainly
wouldn't want to go touring on them, since they're designed to wear out
in several hundred (or less) miles. Just because certain oil additives
may be beneficial in a competitive context is no reason to believe they
would be equally beneficial in a touring context.

The Best of The Worst
   Not all engine oil additives are as potentially harmful as some of
those we have described here. However, the best that can be said of those
that have not proved to be harmful is that they haven't been proved to
offer any real benefits, either. In some cases, introducing an additive
with a compatible package of components to your oil in the right
proportion and at the right time can conceivably extend the life of your
oil. However, in every case we have studied it proves out that it would
actually have been cheaper to simply change the engine oil instead.
   In addition, recent new evidence has come to light that makes using
almost any additive a game of Russian Roulette. Since the additive
distributors do not list the ingredients contained within their products,
you never know for sure just what you are putting in your engine.
   Recent tests have shown that even some of the most inoffensive
additives contain products which, though harmless in their initial state,
convert to hydrofluoric acid when exposed to the temperatures inside a
firing cylinder. This acid is formed as part of the exhaust gases, and
though it is instantly expelled from your engine and seems to do it no
harm, the gases collect inside your exhaust system and eat away at your
mufflers from the inside out.

Whatever The Market Will Bear
   The pricing of oil additives seems to follow no particular pattern
whatsoever. Even among those products that seem to be almost identical,
chemically, retail prices covered an extremely wide range. For example:
   One 32-ounce bottle of Slick 50 (with PTFE) cost us $29.95 at a
discount house that listed the retail price as $59.95, while a 32-ounce
bottle of T-Plus (which claims to carry twice as much PTFE as the Slick
50) cost us only $15.88.
   A 32-ounce bottle of STP Engine Treatment (containing what they call
XEP2), which they claim they can prove "outperforms leading PTFE engine
treatments," cost us $17.97. Yet a can of K Mart Super Oil Treatment,
which listed the same zinc-derivative ingredient as that listed for the
XEP2, cost us a paltry $2.67.
   Industry experts estimate that the actual cost of producing most oil
additives is from one-tenth to one-twentieth of the asking retail price.
Certainly no additive manufacturer has come forward with any exotic,
high-cost ingredient or list of ingredients to dispute this claim. As an
interesting note along with this, back before there was so much
competition in the field to drive prices down, Petrolon (Slick 50) was
selling their PTFE products for as much as $400 per treatment! The words
"buyer beware" seem to take on very real significance when talking about
oil additives.
The Psychological Placebo
   You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why so
many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any other
number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for us - but
we go ahead and do them anyway.
   Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of us
hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have purchased
the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
   Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes with
thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing knowledge of
something just a bit better than everyone else.
   Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need we all
seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any shortage of
unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to believe that
there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help us lose weight,
grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our engines run longer and
better. I doubt that there's a one of us who hasn't fallen for one of
these at least once in our lifetimes. We just want it to be true so bad
that we can't help ourselves.

Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
   In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical print
advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied customer
stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine for 2 years and
50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better gas mileage than ever
before. I love this product and would recommend it to anyone."
   Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly used
to pro mote such things as miracle weight loss diets and astrology.
   Whenever I see one of these ads I am reminded of a stunt played out
several years ago by Allen Funt of "Candid Camera" that clearly
demonstrated the side of human nature that makes such advertising
possible.
   With cameras in full view, fake "product demonstrators" would offer
people passing through a grocery store the opportunity to taste-test a
"new soft drink." What the victims didn't know was that they were being
given a horrendous concoction of castor oil, garlic juice, tabasco sauce
and several other foul-tasting ingredients. After taking a nice, big
swallow, as instructed by the demonstrators, the unwitting victims
provided huge laughs for the audience by desperately trying to conceal
their anguish and disgust. Some literally turned away from the cameras
and spit the offending potion on the floor.
   The fascinating part came when about one out of four of the victims
would actually turn back to the cameras and proclaim the new drink was
"Great" or "Unique" or, in several cases, "One of the best things I've
ever tasted!" Go figure.
   The point is, compiling "personal testimonials" for a product is one
of the easiest things an advertising company can do - and one of the
safest, too. You see, as long as they are only expressing some one else's
personal opinion, they don't have to prove a thing! It's just an opinion,
and needs no basis in fact whatsoever.
   On the other hand, there has been documented, careful scientific
analysis done on numerous oil additives by accredited institutions and
researchers.
   For example:
   Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We
have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all
worthless."
   Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable
engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They
do not appear to offer any benefits."
   North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and
said in their report, "The theory sounds good - the only problem is that
the products simply don't work."
   And finally, Ed Hackett, chemist at the University of Nevada Desert
Research Center, says, "Oil additives should not be used. The oil
companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive pack age that
meets the vehicle's requirements. If you add anything to this oil you may
upset the balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification."
   Petrolon, Inc., of Houston, Texas, makers of Petrolon and producers of
at least a dozen other lubrication products containing PTFE, including
Slick 50 and Slick 30 Motorcycle Formula, claim that, "Multiple tests by
independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an
automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts.
Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50
percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone."
   Sounds pretty convincing, doesn't it?
   The problem is, Petrolon and the other oil additive companies that
claim "scientific evidence" from "independent laboratories," all refuse
to identify the laboratories that conducted the tests or the criteria
under which the tests were conducted. They claim they are "contractually
bound" by the laboratories to not reveal their identities.
   In addition, the claim of "50 percent less wear" has never been proven
on anything approaching a long-term basis. Typical examples used to
support the additive makers' claims involve engines run from 100 to 200
hours after treatment, during which time the amount of wear particles in
the oil decreased. While this has proven to be true in some cases, it has
also been proven that after 400 to 500 hours of running the test engines
invariably reverted to producing just as many wear particles as before
treatment, and in some cases, even more.
   No matter what the additive makers would like you to believe, nothing
has been proven to stop normal engine wear.
   You will note that all of the research facilities quoted in this
article are clearly identified. They have no problem with making their
findings public. You will also note that virtually all of their findings
about oil additives are negative. That's not because we wanted to give a
biased report against oil additives - it's because we couldn't find a
single laboratory, engine manufacturer or independent research facility
who would make a public claim, with their name attached to it, that any
of the additives were actually beneficial to an engine. The conclusion
seems inescapable.
   As a final note on advertising hype versus the real world, we saw a
television ad the other night for Slick 50 oil additive. The ad
encouraged people to buy their product on the basis of the fact that,
"Over 14 million Americans have tried Slick 50!" Great. We're sure you
could just as easily say, "Over 14 million Americans have smoked
cigarettes!"-but is that really any reason for you to try it? Of course
not, because you've seen the scientific evidence of the harm it can do.
The exact same principle applies here.

In Conclusion
   The major oil companies are some of the richest, most powerful and
aggressive corporations in world. They own multi-million dollar research
facilities manned by some of the best chemical engineers money can hire.
It is probably safe to say that any one of them has the capabilities and
resources at hand in marketing, distribution, advertising, research and
product development equal to 20 times that of any of the independent
additive companies. It therefore stands to reason that if any of these
additive products were actually capable of improving the capabilities of
engine lubricants, the major oil companies would have been able to
determine that and to find some way to cash in on it.
   Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or
endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
   In addition, all of the major vehicle and engine manufacturers spend
millions of dollars each year trying to increase the longevity of their
products, and millions more paying off warranty claims when their
products fail. Again, it only stands to reason that if they thought any
of these additives would increase the life or improve the performance of
their engines, they would be actively using and selling them - or at
least endorsing their use.
   Instead, many of them advise against the use of these additives and,
in some cases, threaten to void their warranty coverage if such things
are found to be used in their products.
   In any story of this nature, absolute "facts" are virtually impossible
to come by. Opinions abound. Evidence that points one direction or the
other is avail able, but has to be carefully ferreted out, and is not
always totally reliable or completely verifiable.
   In this environment, conclusions reached by known, knowledgeable
experts in the field must be given a certain amount of weight.
Conclusions reached by unknown, unidentifiable sources must be discounted
almost totally. That which is left must be weighed, one side against the
other, in an attempt to reach a "reasonable" conclusion.
   In the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of
evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known
and identifiable expert sources, including independent research
laboratories, state universities, major engine manufacturers, and even
NASA.
   Against this rather formidable barrage of scientific research,
additive makers offer not much more than their own claims of
effectiveness, plus questionable and totally unscientific personal
testimonials. Though the purveyors of these products state they have
studies from other independent laboratories supporting their claims, they
refuse to identify the labs or provide copies of the research. The only
test results they will share are those from their own testing
departments, which must, by their very nature, be taken with a rather
large grain of salt.

Sidebar: Synthetic Oils
   Whenever we talk about oil additives, the subject of synthetic oils
inevitably crops up. Actually, the tow subjects have very little to do
with each other, but since many riders seem to equate additives and
synthetics together in their minds, we will take a few lines just to
clear the air.
   Synthetic oils were originally developed for use in gas turbine
engines. In most cases they are capable of maintaining their viscosity
for longer periods of use and under much greater temperatures and
pressures than petroleum products. Commons synthetics used for engine
lubrication today are Polyalphaolefin (like Mobil 1) or Dibasic Organic
Esters (like AMSOIL). They are fully compatible with conventional oils
and can be mixed, providing their ratings match.
   Probably the best situation is a blend of synthetics and mineral oils,
such as Golden Spectro and AGIP Sint 2000. These products seem to offer
the best of both worlds in protection and extended service life. They may
cost considerably more than standard petroleum products, but they also
can be used for much longer periods between oil changes without losing
their protective capabilities.
   Synthetics and synthetic blends offer a wider range of protection than
standard petroleum products. However, it should be noted that this
extended range of protection reaches into an area of temperatures and
pressures virtually impossible to attain inside most motorcycle engines
and transmissions. In other words, if you use them, you are buying a sort
of "overkill protection." It's certainly not going to hurt anything -
it's just unnecessary. That is, unless it makes you feel better knowing
the extra protection is on board, in which case the added expense may be
well justified.
   As a basic rule of thumb, using the standard engine oil recommended by
your bike's manufacturer and changing it about every 3000 miles will
afford you all the protection you'll ever need. But if you feel better
knowing you have more protection than you need or, if you like the
extended service-life feature, there's certainly nothing wrong with using
a premium grade synthetic blend lubricant.
--










From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:54 EDT 1994
Article: 563 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Induction machines
Message-ID: <c9b_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 19 Jul 94 18:44:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Dunmyer told Earl Needham regarding YOUR CARBURETOR :

JD> It plain will not function at all without power being applied, at 
JD> least to start with; there's some discussion as to whether it might 
JD> continue to generate electricity once started.

You can get self-excitation of induction machines if you have enough 
capacitance on the system.  Evidently there may be enough residual flux 
left on the rotor to get the system rolling under some instances.

Seems like the wind power guys at DOE had put out some publications 
regarding this phenomena.  Obviously this can be the good news and the bad 
news depending on what you are trying to do.


---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * They earned it the old fashioned way, stock options.


From don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:09:55 EDT 1994
Article: 564 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!don.walli
From: don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us (don walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Jul 94 18:33:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Michigan Tech - RTC program
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dwalli@mtu.edu (don walli)
Date: 20 Jul 94 13:33:30 GMT

Everyone in this thread seems to have touched on, and subsequently
ignored,
what seems to be the most likely (most logical? maybe) solution for
this
whole process, and that's an overall systems approach. By that, I mean 
using a system of several different technologies to solve the problem
(in
this case, vehicular power).

Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
(assumed from water).
What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
modules? 
Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells, but
electrolysis
can happen at *very* low voltages, so really high power output is not 
absolutely essential. And even if your PV cells aren't highly
efficient--so
what??? The sun is still *free*. Ross hasn't figured out a way to bill
us for that one yet.

So now you have H2, and you're (rightly) concerned about the potential
output of an H2-powered IC engine. What about using a fuel cell
instead? Your waste
output (with the exception of the eventually-depleted catalyst) is very
low, 
and now you have electric power in your vehicle (or home, or
municipality, or whereever you set up the fuel cells. And, yes, the
fuel cell does introduce some more losses (as the affordable ones are
not all that efficient). However,I would think that those losses might
(*might*) be acceptable when
you consider that the overall system here does not require the use of
any non-renewable resources (in the generation of the fuel, anyway).

I have *not* worked out all the numbers here yet, as I'm just getting
into this whole idea. If anyone would care to go through the hassle, I
would be
overjoyed to work with you (provide any info I can find, clarify my
outline
above, &c.) on refining it.

And thanks for providing one of the best newsgroups I've read in a
long, long time.


||  Donald J. Walli     Rhetoric and Technical Communication  ||
||  dwalli@mtu.edu      Michigan Technological University     ||


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:56 EDT 1994
Article: 565 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <ca6_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 04:06:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James Neighbors
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> appliances in their house...  My question..  Is this even possible, and is
-> it a feasible idea?

Yes, No.

^..^


From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:57 EDT 1994
Article: 566 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hey Guys!
Message-ID: <cb9_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Jul 94 14:28:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Kenneth T. Cornelius
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Hey Guys!
 
> This is supposed to be about renewable enery, right?  What has gummed up 
> carburetors, ammeter shunts, and electric vehicles of all types got to do 
> with that?  Take it somewhere else, OK?

I don't know about that, the title listed here is "Alternative Energy/Home
Power".
I don't see a problem. (not that i am host).
Popeye

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:09:59 EDT 1994
Article: 567 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <cc2_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 13:51:34 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Phillip Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (12 Jul 94) Phillip Hill wrote to Ian Woofenden...

 PH> What I did before was to construct a pit in the ground and
 PH> place the generator in it. This is not just a pit but a
 PH> walkin cellar type thing. works really well, can hear it only
 PH> if you know it's there.

Sounds ideal. Only trouble here is that it would also require a sump
pump, since our water table is pretty high in the winter. And what
would happen if the battery power went out on the pump - just start
up the gen to charge <g>...

But thanks for the idea. Seems perfect for other applications, and I
could consider building a mound around my gen house if it weren't
positioned so close to other buildings.

Ian



... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:00 EDT 1994
Article: 568 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <cc3_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 13:55:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry D. Yuengel
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (17 Jul 94) Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...

 LD> > most everything else could be run on 12 volts. The parts
 LD> > would be cheap and 3 or 4 car batteries could hold enough
 LD> > power for when the wind is low. Do you know of anyone that
 LD> > has tried this?

 LD> I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

But they are a poor choice, compared to the DC compact fluorescents
that are out there.  The latter gives probably ten times as much
light (OK, I'm not being exact...) for the same power consumption.

And as others have said, car batteries are not made for the cycling
that happens in HP situations.

I'd really suggest that anyone interested in this sort of system
order as many of the AE catalogs advertised in HP as you can. There
is a lot being done, and you could save re-inventing too many
wheels. Many of the catalogs serve as system planning guides too and
have much educational material.

Ian



... Never assume malice when stupidity may be the answer.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:01 EDT 1994
Article: 569 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wind power/batteries
Message-ID: <cc4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 14:00:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (23 Jul 94) Tony Weeks wrote to Don Kulha...

 TW> Forgive me my lack of attention to the subject. I was more
 TW> interested in finding if using cheap alternators would work.
 TW> I know the difference between a car batter and a deep-cycle
 TW> battery. I used to have half interest in a auto battery shop
 TW> and we sold deep-cycle batteries but I've always thought of
 TW> them as another flavor of car batteries.

Forgive me my non-expertness, but I think that the "deep-cycle"
batteries that you sold *were* just another flavor of car battery,
and not true deep cycle batteries, such as the Trojan L-16 that Don
was talking about.

Better to buy from either an AE dealer, or a battery distributor who
knows stationary power systems. Not to knock your experience *too*
much, but auto battery people know what it takes to make a good auto
battery, but not necessarily a good AE system battery.



Ian



... noted Canadian comedian Don Cherry.....


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:02 EDT 1994
Article: 570 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <cc5_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 26 Jul 94 21:36:45 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (20 Jul 94) Tony Cygan wrote to Ian Woofenden...

 TC> I went into the Human Powered Fidonet echo can came up with
 TC> the following information -- Hope it helps...

Thanks. Good to know that conference is there. 

Makes me think that at some point it would be nice to have a listing
of echoes that are even tangentially connected to our topic here.

I'm not super interested in recumbant bikes, but have at times
wished that there were something that had the advantages of a car
(room for passengers, stuff, and weatherproof) but powered by the
occupants. 

If anyone knows of such a thing, I'm interested in hearing about it.



Ian



... That's not line noise--my modem's speaking in tongues!


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:03 EDT 1994
Article: 571 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-234-2-0!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: YOUR CARBURETOR
Message-ID: <cca_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 22:03:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Lewis Cosper
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >>  I'm familiar with how  you sync conventional alternators to an
 >>  existing AC source.
 > 
 > How does one do that?

Basically, they have light bulbs connected between the existing line and the
alternator. If the alternator is stopped, the bulbs will light up; as the
alternator comes up to speed, the bulbs start flickering, slower and slower.
When you get them to just go out, you throw the switch to parallel the
alternator and the line, then adjust the governor on the engine to pick up the
load. The bulbs must be rated at twice the voltage of the power system because
if the alternator and line are 180 degrees out of phase, the voltage will be
twice "normal".
 
Of course, if you have a cogenerator system like we have at work, the computer
just starts the "other" engine and puts it online for you. <<grin>>


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:05 EDT 1994
Article: 572 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 28 Jul 1994 16:01:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 60
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3192ps$qui@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>, rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
writes:

"I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS
an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it
continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it may
not)."

     I acknowledge a difference of definition here. To me you're still
doing the same old job of turning a turbine with a somethingorother fired
steam boiler, the source of which is producing some form of waste. The
difference is that this source is imminently more dangerous than most
others.
     I would have considered nuclear "alternative" a few decades ago when
the technology was still new - now it's more mainstream and less of an
"alternate." I will consider solar no longer an alternate when it is more
widely developed and distributed and producing a significant ammount of
our grid-power. Perhaps then we'll be seeking ways to harness planetary
movement or something similar and that will be our new "alternative"
energy source. Till then . . . 


"What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable. 
Theoretically,
nuclear wastes can be re-used.  However, we presently lack the technology
to do this."

     Thank you for that statement. Perhaps when we stop burrying dangerous
nuclear waste and can do something useful with it I'll be more inclined to
accept it.


"While this may cause you to jump for joy, keep in mind that it wasn't too
long ago that we lack the technology to turn on a light switch or perform
open-heart surgery."

     And they said we couldn't put a man on the moon either. Times are
changing and views need to change with the times.



"What I am trying to get across to you is that I think you need to be
more open-minded to other views.  The best solutions tend to come from
contributions from several minds, not just one."

     Hence the development of the Newsgroup. AER exists for AE-minded
people to share their experiences and ideas - not to debate the old
nuclear-vs.-solar debate (correct me if I'm wrong, Don). That was one of
the main things with Harry C.'s post that got me started on this whole
thing. I have had more than my share of nuclear thisandthat while I was in
college - if nothing, the experiments I did on plants proved to me that I
really DON'T want a nuclear plant anywhere near me.

     My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
nothing to do with them.

Shadowfax




From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:06 EDT 1994
Article: 573 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 28 Jul 1994 15:39:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3191gn$qih@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <CtM2uA.7o8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtM2uA.7o8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
: are getting is coming from the pro-nuclear groups. Not an unwarranted
: argument, just not one we're interested in. Nuclear IS NOT NOR WILL EVER
: BE and alternative energy source (keyword highlighted).
:            ^^^^^^^^

>OK I'll bite--
>
>   (1) who are "we"  (please don't speak for me, I have my own opinions
>                    /agenda/preferences/identity)

     "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 


  > (2) what is "alternative"? 

     What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
mainstream (yet).


Shadowfax



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:07 EDT 1994
Article: 574 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:10:49 GMT
References: <3191gn$qih@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 33
Status: O
X-Status: 

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:

:      "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
: are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
: share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
: latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 

Nope. Please don't put words in our mouths! We am very interested in
renewable energy futures. However we recognize that there are other factors
such as economics whihc need to be considered as well. We also have
a broad enough view to know that no energy source is without it's 
environmental (and other) concerns. We for instance realize that it takes
a tremendous amount of energy and noxious chemical processing to
create PV's, and that other methods (such as thermal conversion) might
be much more benign.

:   > (2) what is "alternative"? 

:      What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
: something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
: falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
: mainstream (yet).

Well, I guess that leaves out geothermal and hydro since they are very
much mainstream here in the pacific northwest. Solar is 'alternate' for the
moment but then I guess it won't be as soon as it becomes economical for
the utilities to switch. You're proposing that once solar becomes popular this
group will no longer be able to discuss it?  


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:08 EDT 1994
Article: 575 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cto5qx.Mo4@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:16:08 GMT
References: <3192ps$qui@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

:      My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
: the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
: nothing to do with them.

: Shadowfax

Then I guess you would be very much against PV's, considering the 
large energy input during processing which came from somewhere, not
to mention the hydroflouric acid, arsene gas, CFC's etc. that were
used during processing. Or does 'clean' to you simply mean that the
mess is in someone else's back yard?

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:10 EDT 1994
Article: 576 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.uoregon.edu!engineer.mrg.uswest.com!cherokee!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Summary: EE Times article; Lead-acid battery fast charger.
Keywords: Battery EV Lead Acid Charge
Organization: NETCOM On-line (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 23:59:35 GMT
Lines: 31
Status: O
X-Status: 

The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
standard D.C. charger. 

The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

(Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:11 EDT 1994
Article: 577 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!world!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <hatunenCtoKz7.7CK@netcom.com>
Keywords: Battery EV Lead Acid Charge
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 02:45:06 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
>The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
>contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
>Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
>
>A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
>produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
>is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
>In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
>a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
>would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
>were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
>standard D.C. charger. 
>
>The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
>conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
>and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
>the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
>
>Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
>the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
>do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
>Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
>plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
>Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
>from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
>deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:12 EDT 1994
Article: 578 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtotw0.LtJ@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 05:57:35 GMT
Lines: 32
Status: O
X-Status: 

Len Turnbow (quartlow@netcom.com) wrote:
: The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

: A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
: produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
: is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
: In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
: a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
: would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
: were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
: standard D.C. charger. 

: The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
: conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
: and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
: the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


: Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
: the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
: do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
: Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
: plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
: Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
: from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
: deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

: (Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
: contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
: controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From harr@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:13 EDT 1994
Article: 579 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: harr@netcom.com (Charles Chuck Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Induction machines
Date: 29 Jul 1994 21:18:16 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9407291705.A18939-0100000@netcom6>
References: <c9b_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Self-excited induction machines (both single- and 3-phase) seem to
be a fairly hot topic in the Middle East & India recently.  Check
out the last year or so of IEEE Trans. Energy Conversion at your
nearest university library.  Also the proceedings of the
6th International Conference on Electrical Machines and Drives,
IEE conf pub 376 (1993), ISBN 0 85296 596 6.  Yes, that's
IEE - British - not IEEE.

It seems that self-exicted induction is the cat's meow for
micro hydro systems.

Chuck


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:14 EDT 1994
Article: 580 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:40:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 60
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bpf5$lk6@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

"Nope. Please don't put words in our mouths! We am very interested in
renewable energy futures. However we recognize that there are other
factors such as economics whihc need to be considered as well."

     The only words I was putting anywhere regarded one post from a
pro-nuke who was upset because he was asked to stop the nuclear-vs-solar
debate. I wasn't into picking nits until I was backed up and made to do
so. Remember, economically speaking, what works for some may be impossible
for others. To me solar is worth every thin dime I've spent and those I'll
be spending in the years to come. I'm not tied to FPL anymore and I'll
reach payback in only a few years. No matter how much you pay on you
electric bill I sincerely doubt you'll ever one even one small power
plant.


"We also have a broad enough view to know that no energy source is without
it's environmental (and other) concerns. We for instance realize that it
takes a tremendous amount of energy and noxious chemical processing to
create PV's, and that other methods (such as thermal conversion) might
be much more benign."

    Acknowledged - but were you aware that the average solar panel will
generate many times the power used in it's creation over a nominal 20 year
lifespan? Noxious chemicals are used in photo-processing pictures too - at
least the chemicals used in creating the high-purity silicon solar cells
aren't dumped down the drain at the end of the night. They are quite
readily recyclable and their use in the production process occurs in a
closed-loop system with minimal waste.

:   > (2) what is "alternative"? 

"Well, I guess that leaves out geothermal and hydro since they are very
much mainstream here in the pacific northwest. Solar is 'alternate' for
the
moment but then I guess it won't be as soon as it becomes economical for
the utilities to switch. You're proposing that once solar becomes popular
this
group will no longer be able to discuss it?"

    Once again you seem intent on cornering me on a definition. This time
I'm going bail because I think this Group needs to direct it's bandwith to
more useful things than the EXACT definition of "alternative." Therefore,
in the words of Webster: ALTERNATIVE: (n) One of a number of things from
which one must be chosen. (a) Necessitating or allowing a choice between
two or more than two things.

     If you want to hear it my way: Alternative Energy (n) A source of
clean electric power created with an absolute minimun or absence of noise,
pollution and/or waste (preferably recyclable), which is ecologically and
environmentally sound.

    Jot that one down since you asked for it. Nuffsaid in the definition
department.

Shadowfax




From ispeech@cais.cais.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:15 EDT 1994
Article: 581 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!sun.cais.com!cais.cais.com!ispeech
From: ispeech@cais.cais.com (IBM Spoken Lang Syst)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Vacation
Date: 29 Jul 1994 20:45:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <31bpov$3e9@sun.cais.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cais.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 


How about information where I could purchase one, say in the 8-10 hp range?

Thanks


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:16 EDT 1994
Article: 582 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:42:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bpip$lkq@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Cto5I2.MHK@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cto5qx.Mo4@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

"Then I guess you would be very much against PV's, considering the 
large energy input during processing which came from somewhere, not
to mention the hydroflouric acid, arsene gas, CFC's etc. that were
used during processing. Or does 'clean' to you simply mean that the
mess is in someone else's back yard?"

    Hardly. I've lived in New Jersey and had just such a mess IN my
backyard. Read my other post - most of those chemicals are captured and
processed or recycled. At least that's how they were doing it when I
learned about it.

Shadowfax




From bergstro@src.honeywell.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:17 EDT 1994
Article: 583 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!not-for-mail
From: bergstro@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Date: 29 Jul 1994 21:03:03 GMT
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center, Minneapolis, MN
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <BERGSTRO.94Jul29160303@tbird.src.honeywell.com>
References: <775166990snz@codesmth.demon.co.uk> <3161uj$qk@search01.news.aol.com>
	<rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tbird.src.honeywell.com
In-reply-to: rabii@netcom.com's message of Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:42:56 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>>>> On Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:42:56 GMT, rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd) said:

> I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS
> an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it
> continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it may not).

Given the significant percentage (15% or more?) of US energy produced
at nuclear plants, I'd hardly consider nuclear an alternative source. 

> What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable.  Theoretically,

This is the important point here - this newsgroup is about renewable
energy sources, isn't it?

Pete


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:19 EDT 1994
Article: 584 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:47:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bpsa$ln2@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <318q5i$ptl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <318q5i$ptl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, cocking@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Cara
'Glorified Version of a Pelican' Cocking) writes:

" I live in southern Florida (Boca Raton) and we have solar panels on our
 roof that heat our water.  I know there are others in our area who use
 solar power to heat their water."
 
     I've seen lots of solar hot water, but almost no power production.
I'm still curious as to why.
     I'm working on a self-sustaining hot-water system for my house now
and hope to have it up and running sometime in August. Considering the sun
down here I'll probably be able to disconnect my hot water heater elements
altogether.

Shadowfax



From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:20 EDT 1994
Article: 585 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 16:51:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31bq3m$lpd@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>, seiaopps@access3.digex.net
(Solar Energy Industries Assoc.) writes:

"Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in
Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com"

     I would like that - perhaps you could post all or some of them here
for everyone to see?

Shadowfax




From quartlow@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:21 EDT 1994
Article: 586 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <quartlowCtouz9.13H@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com> <hatunenCtoKz7.7CK@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 06:21:08 GMT
Lines: 45
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
: Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
: >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
: >
: >(Body of article snipped)

Dave wrote:
: Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

: Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
: take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
: would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
: of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
: The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
: could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
: must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
: a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
: gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

(Sig snipped)

Len replies:

The article didn't mention if the charger used a local battery
to integrate the charge over a long period of time.  An EV equipped with
10 batteries, each measuring 105 amp-hours would require 1522.5 WHr per
battery for a recharge.  The block of 10 batteries would thus need 
15225 WHr.  For a 20 minute recharge, this equates to 45675 W for the
entire block.  I agree that even at 230V, this is a mind-boggling
199 amps. 

However, if the charger had a local matching battery block that it recharged
over a period of only eight hours daily, the continuous load would be
only =) about 25 amps at 230 V.  More reasonable, Nes pas?

Why not just swap battery blocks, I hear you say?  It would be faster,
I agree.  The reason is that a rapid-recharge system could accomodate your 
car or truck or motorcycle or lawnmower all with differently sized packs.

This is one way around the problem you mentioned.

Regards,  --Len


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:23 EDT 1994
Article: 587 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 39
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
IW> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
IW> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
IW> DH> gasoline, etc?

They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
converting to propane <cheaper>

IW>They tend to be a bit more expensive, and the fuel consumption is
IW>going to be 10-20% more than gasoline, from what I've heard. Engines

True, they use more gas.

IW>that run on propane are supposed to last a lot longer, due to the
IW>fuel being cleaner. Better on the air too.

True also, to a point. There is a minor problem with "top end
lubrication" because you don't have the lubricating effect of the
pertro. derived fuel. Top end lubricators can be purchased but I find it
better to "smoke down" an internal combustion engine that may not be run
again for a while. I do this by useing a mechanics oiler <squirt gun>
full of Mystery Oil. It is a red colored oil that will burn in the
combustion chamber but at the same time completely coats all surfaces
includeing the exhaust valves. Just pop open the air cleaner and squirt
it into the intake untill a large cloud of smoke starts billowing out
the exhaust. When started again it will smoke untill it burns all the
oil off. I also put some in the crank case too. About one quart to four
is a good ratio. That tends to help lub the top end also.

IW>No expert here, but questions are welcome, as I do run a
IW>homebuilt DC gen on propane.

I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * You can check out but you can never leave!


From James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:24 EDT 1994
Article: 588 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2604-407-0!James.Nepil
From: James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (James Nepil)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CARS
Message-ID: <a38_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 06:08:59 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * (201)641-8167 14.4
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


    I don't remember who was looking for the information on ELECTRIC CARS but
here is the information you need!
U.S ELECTRIcar
117 Morris St.
Sebastopol, Calif.
          95472
phone numer is (707) 829-4545
   I hope this helps you out ....Will try to get you more information if needed
:)
                            Best to you All !
                                James
* SPITFIRE v3.4


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:25 EDT 1994
Article: 589 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12volts
Message-ID: <a3e_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 12:07:42 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gary Pagac
Status: O
X-Status: 


 GP>  On 07-17-94 Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...
 LD>
 LD>   I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

 GP>   Those draw a LOT of juice...like 7 to 13 amps each.  There are readily
 GP>   available 12 volt screw-in incandescent bulbs at all trailer supply
 GP>   places.  These bulbs look exactly like a standard indoor incandescent.

You're right, Gary, headlamps do draw a lot of current but I don't think you'd
use them for indoor illumination.  Larry was thinking of smaller bulbs more on
the order of tail light bulbs or dome light bulbs.  I'm familiar with the screw
in 12 volt bulbs you mention and they work very well.  One caution, though.  Be
careful not to inadvertently screw one of them into a 120 volt socket (they act
just like a flash bulb!).

 GP>   Possibly better yet, look into florescent lighting.  It is widely
 GP>   available for home, 120 volt use and it is super efficient.

There are also 12 volt florescent units available and they are also very
efficient.  As I replace light fixtures in my travel trailer, I'm converting
over to them.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:27 EDT 1994
Article: 590 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-213-830-0!Fred.Nowall
From: Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org (Fred Nowall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <a5e_9407291648@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 16:15:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: InterComm - 702-359-2666 -
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry D. Yuengel
Status: O
X-Status: 

LDY>  I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.
LDY>Popeye

this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
popeye just wandering?
fred


From seiaopps@access3.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:28 EDT 1994
Article: 591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access3.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>
References: <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     I'm curious to see if there are any other people out there who might
>be Florida residents generating their own power through solar/AE. As near
>as I can tell, aside from an experiment or two at the local Vo-Tech
>school, no one in this area besides myself is doing any real harvesting of
>Florida Sunshine for power.
>
>Shadowfax
>
>

Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com

Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Association
seiaopps@digex.com


From windsor@access1.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:29 EDT 1994
Article: 592 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!access1!windsor
From: windsor@access1.digex.net (Windsor Software Corp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Rayovac Renewal Batteries
Date: 30 Jul 1994 18:06:31 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31e4r7$sm0@news1.digex.net>
References: <3123co$sfb@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

HBSAW (hbsaw@aol.com) wrote:
: I have been using the batterys for three months now with a Eagle hand-held
: GPS unit. This GPS has a hell of a currect drain. AAA batterys are set to
: 9 volts or 6 batterys. Current drain will pull down the batterys(any
: batterys) to 6.5 volts in 2 hours,at which time the GPS shuts down. I have
: rechargede the Rayovacs' 12 or 15 times and I have had no trouble with
: them holding a full charge. Most of the time I get 2 contuse hours out of
: them. I like them

Does anyone know of an inexpensive retailer of the Rayovac Renewal
batteries?  Many local stores stock them, but generally at list price.

--
Michael C. Smith
Windsor Software Corp, 8377 Cherry Ln, Laurel, MD  20707-4831
windsor@access.digex.net . 301-497-4211 voice . 301-470-0159 fax
Client-server NT, SQL Server, Unix, Sybase applications


From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:30 EDT 1994
Article: 593 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtrHLw.LC@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 16:25:07 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:31 EDT 1994
Article: 594 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 06:47:17 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:32 EDT 1994
Article: 595 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqqwv.IJK@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 06:48:29 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:33 EDT 1994
Article: 596 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqs0H.Jxz@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 07:12:16 GMT
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

There is a little startup venture in Issaquah WA. that
has some fair size research contracts to build a gas
to electricity generator in the multi-kilowatt size range .

The product is cylindrical, with a central burner tube that
radiates outwards through some low pass optical filters onto
strips of Gallium Antimonide (GaSb) Photovoltaic "solar" cells.

It works. The low bandgap GaSb converts the near Infra-Red
radiation into electric power . 

Envisioned product configurations include cabin heaters that provide
electricity as a byproduct for colder climes and electric power for
hybrid vehicles that burn natural gas and run electric motors .

The car idea takes advantage of the fact that with continuous 
high temperature combustion there are little emissions to worry
about compared to internal combustion engines where the moment
of combustion is short compared to the combustion cycle so the
average temperature is relatively low leaving lots of byproduct
emissions.





From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:34 EDT 1994
Article: 597 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:46:37 GMT
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 

The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
photovoltaic effect.



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:35 EDT 1994
Article: 598 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtroL2.Crx@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:55:48 GMT
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 


Testing response procedure with environment set
to vi .


From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:36 EDT 1994
Article: 599 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <Ctrorv.D8D@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <e49_9407211722@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:59:54 GMT
Lines: 2
Status: O
X-Status: 

See new thread 77 this group.



From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:10:37 EDT 1994
Article: 600 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 21:16:49 GMT
References: <mwilson.775321305@ncratl> <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 31
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

|> |    The rivers of the eastern states were "littered" with low head hydro 
|> |plants around the turn of the century with the water being used over and 
|> |over again. Rather elegant. The folks I know who are using small hydro 
|> |generally don't have dams, the one person I do know who uses a dam has 
|> |one a whole foot high.

|His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
|rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
|"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
|either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
|last couple years.

I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

|> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
|> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.

|     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.

The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
either the month before that, or two months before that.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:38 EDT 1994
Article: 601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 30 Jul 1994 23:54:03 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 31
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

> |His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
> |rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
> |"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
> |either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
> |last couple years.

> I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
> description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 
know exactly. The system has worked well and the board forming his dam 
generally has water spilling over the top. No great shakes since it's not 
causing bank errosion and he's usually only using a small percentage of 
the creekflow (what is used gets returned to the creek in short order so 
he's only temporarily "borrowing" a few GPM).
 
> |> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
> |> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.
> 
> |     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.
> 
> The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
> either the month before that, or two months before that.

   Thanks for the info....DCK




From Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:41 EDT 1994
Article: 602 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-353-460-0!Ron.Perepolkin
From: Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Perepolkin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 17:23:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Big Edge
Lines: 67
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi all,

   I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
following passage.

   "The neighbors commented on how the usual
dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
>From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

   Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
*light pollution*???

   Every year poorly designed lighting systems waste more than $1
billion dollars of electricity by lighting nothing but airborne dust and
water vapour.  Think about it....why not shield the lighting as some
cities have or use low pressure sodium lamps?  You don't aim you car
headlights into the sky to see the ground.   You can see the glow of
major cities from 150 kilometers.  Ever been unable to sleep because of
a street light or neighbors flood lamp?

   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
Ask a pilot what they think of "well lit" airports.
People have gone to court and won cases against light trespass into
their yard.

   Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

   Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
see what they are stealing from you.
  If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

   The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector
lighting is cheap and will scare the hell out of a burglar trying to
raid your tool shed.  You will save money on your power bill as well,
and when you are outside yourself the light can still be left on as any
other light can.

   How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

   If you would like to get more information on conserving power by
reducing wasted light both on your own power bill and your cities power
bill (TAXES) write:   The International Dark Sky Association at 3545 N.
Stewart Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85716.

'nuff said.    RP
___
 X QMPro 1.02 41-5024 X Explain counter-clockwise to someone with a digital
watch


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:42 EDT 1994
Article: 603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <74a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:17:55 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 63
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 21 Jul 94 18:17:55 GMT



On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

>   Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per watt
>   installed.

    I don't know why I'd ever want to say that Stan, Current PV's are 
around 13% efficient and the panel cost is around $6 per watt of capacity 
and concieveably less. New 50 watt panels run about $300 and I can buy 
good used panels for around $3 per watt (I'm going to).

>   The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
>   30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
>   back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die in
>   a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
>   a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
>   exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

   Stan, the cells aren't going to die in 10 years or even 20. They 
degrade somewhat but most of that happens in the first 10 years. I know 
of a well instrumented system containing a 20 year old panel that still 
puts out 88% of it's rated output and hasn't lost any efficency in the 
last ten years. The knowledgeable folks I know estimate a lifespan of 
nearly a century with perhaps %25 degradation at 50 years. There are many 
panels sold now with a 15 year guarantee that they will still put out 90% 
of rated output.

> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar enthusiasts--
> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
> of producing electricity.

    I believe you don't understand why folks use solar panels Stan. This 
is a common misconception. I don't know of few people who have an 
available grid connection who have gone solar. Most folks using PV's are 
off the grid. Here in CA PG&E (the utility) gets $30,000 per mile to run 
power lines (best case situation) for the priviledge of paying them for 
the power you use. This isn't even an option in many parts of the planet 
where it's PV's, Wind, Hydro, fossil fuels or nothing.

     At *current* rates it will take about 16 years to pay off the 
tracked 400watt PV array (about 3.2kwh/day average) we're putting 
together. Of course I don't expect the current per kwh rate to remain the 
same so they payback should be shorter. There's other infrastructure 
involved in this system (batteries, controller, inverter) but it's going 
to be far cheaper than paying PG&E $25,000 for the priviledge of paying  
a monthly bill. Course the sun doesn't shine every day but often when it 
doesn't the wind blows which explains why we're buying a windplant as well.

     Some folks like to make their own power as a hobby, others because 
they want a degree of self sufficency. Me? I just want out of the power 
loop that supports coal, fossil fired and nuclear generation.

> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great deals!

      Speaking of which it's likely the cost of PV's will fall by about 
half in the next 3-4 years and continue to fall....

    DCK


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:43 EDT 1994
Article: 604 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <74b_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 22:33:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 21 Jul 94 17:33:15 GMT

In article <30k5ai$1gt@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Dean Weiten <dmw@access.mbnet.mb.ca> wrote:

[...]

>Of course, where I come from (Manitoba, Canada), we are lucky enough to be
>able to generate electricity from hydraulic sources - but we have also found
>this not to be quite non-polluting, as several northern native groups can
>attest.  In my ideal world, all power sources would be non-polluting, 
>and IMHO, they would likely be producing electricity.

A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
to clear out the silt. 

The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:45 EDT 1994
Article: 605 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <768_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 15:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 37
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 > ICE.

 LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

Yea me too !

People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
More people are driving...(increasing population)

So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and 
better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
the same scale as the population increases their driving.

It still comes down to --

1) How the electricity is generated (coal, natural gas, SOLAR ?)
2) It is still easier to clean up (and maintain) 1 smokestack 
   than a 100,000+ car exhausts.  So even with the dirtiest 
   generation source you come out ahead.

This sounds like a push from the auto and gas industries to 
derail the Electric Vehicle from becomming a reality in the 
Eastern United States, by not allowing them to adopt the 
California ZEV requirements under the EPA guidelines.

If there are bills being pushed in Congress, can you provide 
the Bill numbers, and the originators name, so we can contact 
our Congress persons about this issue ?  Thanks.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.    
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:46 EDT 1994
Article: 606 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <769_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 : DK>At 10-15
 : DK>cents worth of electricity per hour, opportunity charging is one
 : DK>of the least expensive way to mitigate pollution in congested areas.
 : DK>Quick-charge stations are intended to be to the EV what the standard
 : DK>service station is to the ICE car.  You pull in, plug in, get a rapid
 : DK>recharge, and go on your way.

 SB> : 10 to 15 cents worth of electricity for a Quick charge???  Again,
 SB> NOT : LIKELY!!  10 to 15 dollars for a quick charge at a restaurant
 SB> seems more : likely.

 SB> Easy enough to estimate:

 SB> Around here 10 cents will get you perhaps 2kWh worth. That's about
 SB> 3HP-hours. And that's at off-peak rates.

 SB> Anyhow, ask yourself how far you could drive something bigger than
 SB> a skateboard with 3HP-hours worth of energy. Really slick small car
 SB> might take as little as 10HP to keep going on freeway at say 50MPH.
 SB> Then your dime will get you approx 15 miles or so before your next
 SB> 'quick stop charge'.
 SB> 

Stan,

The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
on that 10 cent charge.

On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:47 EDT 1994
Article: 607 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

 VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
 VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
 VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
 VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
 VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

 VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
 VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
 VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Hello,

It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:48 EDT 1994
Article: 608 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:36:54 GMT
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

[...]

>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.

Actually, Tucson was largely motivated by the fear that one of its
major industries might be destroyed by stray light, especially from
certain spectral lines issued by the mercury vapor lamps previously in
use. Tucson happens to be surrounded by astronomical observatories,
some say the largest cluster of observatories in the world. 

When I was a grad student in the Physics department at UofA, one of my
friends had the rather dreary research assignment of recording night
skyglow spectra from Kitt Peak; Pheonix was beginning to give Kitt Peak
some problems.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:49 EDT 1994
Article: 609 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: SOLAR
Message-ID: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:45:50 GMT
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 

I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:50 EDT 1994
Article: 610 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:48:38 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.




From cavery@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:51 EDT 1994
Article: 611 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!cavery
From: cavery@netcom.com (Christopher Avery)
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <caveryCttBqx.Jpq@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:13:45 GMT
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony Cygan (Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

:  -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

:  VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
:  VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
:  VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
:  VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
:  VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

:  VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
:  VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
:  VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

: Hello,

: It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
: counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


: ... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
: ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

I believe the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab (near Baltimore, MD) did 
quite a bit of research in this area but could not come up with a 
practical solution.  An alternative idea is to use ocean thermal energy to 
produce hydorgen, convert that to ammonia for transportion purposes, and 
then use the ammonia as a fuel for cars and electric plants.


From jmccabe@access.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:10:52 EDT 1994
Article: 612 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: jmccabe@access.digex.net (Joe McCabe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 31 Jul 1994 15:16:07 -0400
Organization: Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
>Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
>

And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

 >


-- 
Joe McCabe, P.E. 
Multimedia Manager
Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
jmccabe@digex.net  (202)289-5365   fax(202)289-5354


From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug  5 10:10:53 EDT 1994
Article: 613 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 12:32:53 -0700
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
silicon.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey, Dept. of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering |
| University of California Berkeley                               |
| bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu          Barney + Rush = Barney  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+


From CYBURG@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:10:54 EDT 1994
Article: 614 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: CYBURG@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: re:SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 22:05:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407311747.tn426288@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Eskimo North asked about  snow load

I've installed several systems in high snow load areas and seen crushed
modules that were not installled properly.  The most important single factor
is array angle.  Since the force on the modules varies as the cosine of the
pitch angle, the steeper the incline, the less perpendicular force will bear
on the module surface.
Another important requirement is that space be provided below the array,
since on a steeply inclined array a great deal of the snow will slide off if
it can.  Other important factors involve the structural strength of the
racking and supports.

Don Loweburg



From Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:10:56 EDT 1994
Article: 615 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-214-86!Dean.Kuusela
From: Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 19:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Barbary Coast
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all!

I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Thanks.

Catcha later,
Dean 


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:57 EDT 1994
Article: 616 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <c6d_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 49
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 SB> From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 SB> Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 SB> Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
 SB> watt installed.
     ^^^^
 Right now you can get Solar power at $2-5.00 per watt with the
 panels only 15% effecient.  What makes you think this would 
 change to such a drastic amount (20,000 % more !).

 SB> On a good day you might get me to pay 10 cents per kilowatt hour-
 SB> which is based upon what I can already get electricity for. Now you
 SB> install for $1000 a single one watt cell and start pumping juice out
 SB> to me. 
 SB> Well, every thousand hours of daylight I'll send you a dime. Good
 SB> deal right- after all the sun is free?

 SB> The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
 SB> 30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
 SB> back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die
 SB> in a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
 SB> a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
 SB> exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

 SB> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 SB> enthusiasts-- 
 SB> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
 SB> of producing electricity.
 
 Using such illogical numbers that you do makes no sense.  If it 
 would cost such a drastic amount to get 100% effeciency no one
 would bother doing it.  You would just use more of the "cheap"
 modules to accomplish your goal.  (and many people already do it).

 SB> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
 SB> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great
 SB> deals! 
 SB> --
 SB> Stan Bischof
 SB> Hewlett Packard Sonoma County



... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:10:59 EDT 1994
Article: 617 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV's 3 of 4
Message-ID: <c6e_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 15:21:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James W Dille
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting James W Dille to All <=-

 JWD> From: jwd@cec1.wustl.edu (James W Dille)
 JWD> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:21:49 GMT

 JWD> The pack exchange idea sounds workable, but if, as I have heard, it
 JWD> will $4,000 per year to keep oneself in batteries (on the average),
 JWD> with pack exchange that cost will still have to be borne by someone. If
 JWD> you exchange packs 100 times a year, wouldn't the fee have to be at
 JWD> least $40 a shot? And if an exchange will take you another 100 miles,
 JWD> it's pretty expensive and slow going.

I've never heard these numbers, can you provide me with 
information on where you heard it from ???

If true then I don't think it would be a plausible solution
and would not happen as the market would not accept it, and 
some other way of fast charging would come out.  

The big hurdle for battery pack exchange as I see it, is 
conformity.  Every maker of Electric Cars would have to agree 
on a standard and then keep it, pretty much forever, so it's
not likely to happen soon.

Tony


... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:00 EDT 1994
Article: 618 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: electric scooters
Message-ID: <c6f_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Nick Lindert
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Nick Lindert to All <=-

 NL> From: nlindert@ichips.intel.com (Nick Lindert)
 NL> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:42:09 GMT

 NL> I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have
 NL> details on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

 NL> -- 
 NL> Nick Lindert
 NL> Mailstop: JF1-19
 NL> Home: (503)614-0731
 NL> Work: (503)696-9074

Nick, there are a few people selling these things.

You might try calling the following numbers as a place to 
start.

-- Doran Motor Co. at (702)359-7356
-- Green Motor Works at (818)766-3800

Tony

... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:01 EDT 1994
Article: 619 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:59:05 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 24
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407311614.A11812-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
> a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
> One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
> There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
> have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
> Do they need extra support ? 
> 
> I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
> sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?

     I have some friends with a solar powered repeater at 7000 feet in 
the mountains of Northern CA. The PV's sit on a 30 foot pole next to the 
block repeater shack. My buddy has some pics of the array which looks 
like the array is sitting about 10 feet in the air surrounded by snow 
with no trace of the shack. The panels are now two years old and are 
holding up just fine. They actually make more power per unit time during 
the winter because they're cold.
   DCK
 



From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:02 EDT 1994
Article: 620 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Date: 1 Aug 1994 00:10:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 21
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407311654.A11812-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 25 Jul 1994, Dean Kuusela wrote:

> Hello all!
> 
> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

    Maybe Don Lowenburg will pitch in his $.02 here. Anyway, If you can 
consider a diesel if you plan to use it much. If a diesel isn't 
acceptable and you use gasoline consumption will likely be about double. 
To give you an idea a Coleman Maxxa 5000w unit burns 1 gallon in 1.2 
hours at 50% load, a Honda EG5000 will run 2.6 hrs on 1.9 gal fuel at %50 
load and a 2500w Honda can run 3 hrs at half load on 1 gallon. My friend 
claims 4 hours per gallon at 2500w output with his 6kW China Diesel genset.
     DCK
P.S.- Were I going to buy a gas genset I think I'd look for a 1800 rpm Onan.




From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:03 EDT 1994
Article: 621 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu286.94@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:45:42 GMT
Lines: 27
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dean Kuusela (Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Hello all!

: I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
: boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
: hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

If you assume 80% efficiency for the generator and drive system, then you 
need 5000/.85 = 5880 Watts input to run it.

5880 W * (1 hp/746W) = 7.9 hp

Light duty generator engines consume about .55 to .6 lb of fuel per 
horsepower hour and gas weighs about 6.8 lb/gallon so your fuel 
consumption will be about:
(7.9 hp)*(.6lb/hphr)*(1/6.8 lb/gal) = .7 gal/hr

Can't help you with the brand, but if you're going to use it for several 
thousand hours get one with a good engine.  The cheapos wear out in one 
to two thousand hours.  Also, if you are really going to be putting out 
5000 watts for long periods of time, get a bigger generator.  5000 Watts 
for 8 hours a day is 1200 kWhr a month which is more than twice the power 
consumed by the average urban house.  Are you setting up a machine shop 
in the woods or something?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:04 EDT 1994
Article: 622 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:49:37 GMT
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

Joe McCabe (jmccabe@access.digex.net) wrote:

: >>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
: >>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
: >>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
: >

: And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
: sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
: in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From averyj@eskimo.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:07 EDT 1994
Article: 623 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Message-ID: <CtsEKx.FL7@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <CtnMst.290@txnews.amd.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:17:19 GMT
Lines: 9
Status: O
X-Status: 

ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 

It was a very impressive site . 

They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
They array field was bought by some outfit that has
been stripping it down and selling the panels .


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:08 EDT 1994
Article: 624 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Date: 1 Aug 1994 07:50:23 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 32
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010025.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CtsEKx.FL7@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
> field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
> they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 
> 
> It was a very impressive site . 
> 
> They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
> They array field was bought by some outfit that has
> been stripping it down and selling the panels .

     Yes, I believe this was called the Carrizo Plains Demonstration Site 
and I thought (off the top of my head) that is was 70MW...could easily be 
wrong on the latter. This is the source for most of the "Quadlams" you 
see advertised. Carizzo Solar Corp. (1-800.776.6718) is the outfit 
selling off the panels (mainly thru dealers). There must be a mountain of 
them as they've been selling 'em off for some time. Their ad states "The 
Cheapest Photovoltaics in the World".
      A lot of the panels are pretty scuzzy...but still work. The bronze 
unframed "Quadlams" were used with reflectors to boost output and while 
they look pretty funky a 4 panel set puts out around 90w and can be had 
for about $200....Some dealers are selling the better framed panels that 
weren't cooked with reflectors...a three panel framed set putting out 
about 100w runs about $350...sometimes less. Some folks at SEER had the 
100w sets for $300....they looked pretty good and are likely what I'll be 
buying soon.
      I kinda envision folks mining the desert for PV's :-).
            DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:09 EDT 1994
Article: 625 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:08:02 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 323
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010021.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:12 EDT 1994
Article: 626 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Phantom Power Suckers
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:23:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 231
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010148.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:14 EDT 1994
Article: 627 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hackleman on EV's
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:24:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 110
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010134.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:15 EDT 1994
Article: 628 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: OOPS, 37 not 50...
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:28:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010145.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


    Before someone figures it out let me say that the Hackleman article 
on EV's if from Home Power mag #37, not 50....it's from page 50 of that 
issue. 
     DCK

P.S. - Hope you folks are enjoying these articles....




From seiaopps@access1.digex.net Fri Aug  5 10:11:17 EDT 1994
Article: 629 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access1.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: U.S Solar Energy Manufactueres
Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:19:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31j3p5$pks@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

I noticed several inquiries here concerning locating manufacurers of 
solar energy technologies.

The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology maintains a 
database of our membership directory.

This database can be access via world wide web at http://solstice.crest.org.

The database allows you to search vendors by technology and should soon 
be available via gopher and ftp.  




"Solar energy--do the bright thing"


Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Assosciation
seiaopps@digex.com
(202) 383-2600


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:18 EDT 1994
Article: 630 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <845_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding why the switch contacts not rated for DC tend to burn up, it gets all
involved with calculus and such.  However, there is an
easy way to visualize it.  The electrons in DC flow continuously, and
when the switch tries to break the flow, an arc results and burns up
the contacts.  On ac, the flow of electrons goes to zero twice every
cycle.  When you open the switch, before a significant arc can be established,
the flow of electrons goes to zero.  In effect, in DC the switch being opened
stops the current flow, and in ac the switch
keeps the flow of current from starting up again.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:19 EDT 1994
Article: 631 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <846_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 

* In a message originally to All, Stan Bischof said:
 > From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 > Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 > don walli (dwalli@mtu.edu) wrote:
 > : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the
 > electrolysis
 > : modules? 
 > : Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells,
 > Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 > enthusiasts--

 > the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to
 > the cost
 > of producing electricity.

You are correct, but in the past utility companies were subsidized to connect
to people "off the main roads".  THis is gradually being
phased out.  Power companies generally charge for hook-up if you are over 200
feet from existing lines, plus a charge per foot.  Charges per foot are 
(examples that I know of) between $3.50 and $10 per foot.  If you are 1200 feet
from the nearest power line, you can expect to pay between $3,500 and $10,000
for the prividge of paying a monthly bill.  You can buy a pretty nice AE system
for those dollars.  In this case, the cost of maintenance is the only factor,
not the original cost of the system.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:20 EDT 1994
Article: 632 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?
Message-ID: <84e_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 08:12:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 


 EH> Well, let's put it this way.  My shop air is from a
 EH> 1950 Cadillac compressor
 EH> driven by a 3/4 horse three phase motor, which was
 EH> built in 1966.  In all those
 EH> years, most of the time left ON 24 hours a day, (NO
 EH> leaks) I have yet to add

DK>      Hi Elvis....I appreciate your interesting post and
DK> the spirit in which you're sharing information but we are
DK> getting a wee bit off the conference topic here....Thanks
DK> for your cooperation.....DCK

now let's not go over board here. I think that quite often a lot of good 
conversation and ideas get quashed because they are "off topic",
not always necissarily in this echo mind you, but perfectly valid and 
useful info get shut down far too often (at all is too often:)
 Now granted i don't know the full story but Elvis' post and the one he was
responding to can have alot to do with the subjects in this echo since the 
eficient working of the compressor (or any machine) is directly related to 
the amout of energy it needs to run, wich is important not only in the general 
NEED to not be wasteful, but is much more immediate for someone who is trying
to run the thing off there home PV cells or gerbil wheel generator. . .right?
 thanks
  zachariahCzeck
   jason organist

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:22 EDT 1994
Article: 633 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Allen.J_.Filson
From: Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Allen J. Filson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <85b_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:15:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: afilson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Allen J. Filson)
Date: 22 Jul 94 19:15:44 GMT

Greetings,

Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the 
"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it 
great enough to worry about?

Possibly someone could direct me to a source for this kind of information 
relative to the design of energy efficient housing and alternate energy 
systems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Allen


From Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:23 EDT 1994
Article: 634 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Timothy.Wilson.x4040
From: Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <85c_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:24:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:StorageTek
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: timothyw@stortek.com (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Date: 22 Jul 94 22:24:48 GMT

There is a mailing list that is specifically for HPVs.  To subscribe, mail 
a message to Majordomo@zippy.sonoma.edu.  Do not put anything on the subject 
line.  In the body of the message place this line:

   subscribe hpv <your email address>

I hope this helps

Tim


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:11:25 EDT 1994
Article: 635 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 04:17:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

     Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
water powered but related to such.....
    DCK


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:25 EDT 1994
Article: 636 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <85f_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 18:14:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: John Thompson
Status: O
X-Status: 

JT> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
JT> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
JT> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
JT> DH> gasoline, etc?

JT>    I was just out at a job today, and what do I see but a
JT>    Colman generator 12hp (The green ones) hooked up to
JT>    a propane tank from a gas grill.
JT>    The carburator looked like it was the stock unit with
JT>    very little modification.

Uhoh, the secrets out of the bag. I have seen MANY systems set up as
dual fuel generators that uses the original, unmodified, stock carb.
They can still shut off the propane and fill it with gas and fire it up.
I have seen 2 typs of set-ups. The first uses a plug on the bottom of
the carb <on MOST small engines> in the fuel bowl <where the float is>.
Just let the fuel run out, put a fitting in the hole <most are pipe
thread but be VERY careful to get the same thread and don't cross thread
the hole, a fuel bowl for one of these carbs can be more than an entire
rebuilt carb for a 357> in the bottom of the carb and hook up a line. If
you use a demand type regulator on the propane system <yes, very similar
to scuba regulators> you are ready to roll. You may have to choke it
harder than starting on gasoline, if the regulator has a button that
causes the reg. to force a shot of gas into the hose this works better
than the choke lever. If the fitting has a shut off in the bottom of the
carb then you can just shut off the propane and fill it with gas. The
other system uses a demand type reg. and just a hose to the air horn
<the piece of tubeing or cast metal between the throat of the carb and
air cleaner> or even into the filtered side of the air filter and the
"draw" of the engine will suck propane into the engine. In both cases
the throtle still works the same.

We use to have an engine that almost never was run other than once every
month or two to keep it in operating condition. Instead of filling the
tank we drained it and left it empty. That way we didn't have to wory
about the fuel going stale. We rolled our accetalene <sp?> torch out
ther, stuck the tip in the throat of the carb, turned on the accet. and
fired the engine up. We could vary the fuel flow with the knob on the
torch. We would run it for a while to bring the engine up to temperature
and then would "smoke it down" with mystery oil.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:27 EDT 1994
Article: 637 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <877_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 73
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: RON PEREPOLKIN
Status: O
X-Status: 

RP>    San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
  > due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental


I agree w/you about light pollution, but you are wrong on the following
part:

RP>    Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
  > burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

RP>    Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
  > created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
  > investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
  > that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
  > see what they are stealing from you.
  >   If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
  > level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
  > to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

If it's dark in both inside and outside, your eyes no matter how adapted
to the dark will not see something outside unless there is light to
reflect off of whatever is out there.

If it's dark outside and lit inside, you see NOTHING outside, only your
reflection  in the window.

If it's light outside and lit inside, you are at a standoff, he can see
you, you can see him.

NO, the BEST situation is dark inside, and well lit outside.

I agree you dont have to put a dozen flood lights out there, and
whatever you do put up should be shielded to light your yard, not the
sky or your neighbors, but you need the light out there...


And THEN you go on about:

RP>    The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
  > install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
  > lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector

I can't believe you'd do this all in the same msg. You bitch about light
pollution, and then just substitue it for noise pollution. I'll tell you
what, I can sleep all night long with my neighbors lights shining into
my bedroom, (and they do) but when one of the 4 neigbors dogs start
barking, there is nothing I can do to get to sleep. With the light, I
draw my drapes or simply roll over, I can't do anything about the "yappy
dog" you seem to like.

Your points about light pollution are valid, and I agree. If you chck
out the origin you'll see I'm in Tucson and support the light ordaninces
100% and even argue with my neighbors about their lights.

But your points about security are wrong, and your substitution for one
form of pollution for another is mis-guided, at best, and hypocritical
at worst.


RP>    How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
  > stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
  > unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
  > actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

Even in Tucson w/all our light ordainces, I still have to leave the city
to see the  milky way, something I do almost every single sat or friday
night. :)


eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Pointing out errors in ones beliefs aka Porcupine Bathing


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:28 EDT 1994
Article: 638 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <878_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: TONY CYGAN
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC> The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
  > stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
  > your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
  > on that 10 cent charge.

TC> On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
  > batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
  > town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

TC> Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
  > rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
  > to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

TC> I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
  > quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
  > power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
  > margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.


Or even better yet if the station or grociery store puts up a
photo-voltaic system on the roof to make his one electricy for his
"customers" use!

I for one am ready! :)

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Intelligence is limited only by the openess of the mind.


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:29 EDT 1994
Article: 639 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <879_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DEAN KUUSELA
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK> Hello all!

DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used p
  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * To a little fish, the waters are always deep.


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:30 EDT 1994
Article: 640 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:55:19 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

>The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
>photovoltaic effect.

Wow.  I wonder how efficient it is, and if they would work in the hot sun.
Maybe you could line your oven with panels in order to recover some energy.

Tony dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:32 EDT 1994
Article: 641 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:27:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31jia9$qqh@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

"I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 
I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?"

     I have 8 Solarex MSX-30 panels, a little smaller than the ones you
mention and have seen them take quite a pounding during some of our recent
summer storms. I know this isn't quite the same as snow-loading, but that
one such storm removed several of my fence panels from behind the array
(an idea of it's strengeth).
     Another thought would be Duravolt panels - they're really rugged,
backed with stainless steel and fronted with a Tefcell (sp?) coating which
water and debris just slide off of. I have no doubt they could take
whatever kind of snow loading you could envision as worst-case, and then
some.

Shadowfax




From baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:33 EDT 1994
Article: 642 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ennews!enuxsa.eas.asu.edu!baravind
From: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind)
Subject: NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid, Lithium cells comparison
Message-ID: <Ctv7qx.DC1@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Sender: news@ennews.eas.asu.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:42:33 GMT
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,
Can anyone give me some leads as to where to find a comparison of the four leading rechargeable battery technologies NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid and Lithium with respect to parameters such aas charge time, discharge time, memory effects, peak power, capacity at various current levels, internal impedance, size etc.

If there is a FAQ about this please let me know.

This info is needed for a research project I am doing in school and I need the info in a couple of days.

Please post or mail to baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu

Thanks
Bhaskar


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:34 EDT 1994
Article: 643 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, appliances
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:42:04 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31jfls$rna@nyx.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC 
house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC 
house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce
EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?

I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiring
for my home.

Post, or email:  Tony Dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mercury@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:36 EDT 1994
Article: 644 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl4.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: mercury@crl.com (Kenneth Greenlaw)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Tesla newsgroup?
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:26:42 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [login: guest]
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <31jsr2$o4r@crl4.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl4.crl.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm looking for a newsgroup relevant to the work of Nicola Tesla.  Anyone 
know of such a place?

Regards,

	Ken



From belanos@acs.bu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:37 EDT 1994
Article: 645 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!Jacob.Sutton
From: belanos@acs.bu.edu (Jacob Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jobs in windpower?
Date: 2 Aug 1994 01:45:19 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 10
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[4058]
Message-ID: <31k8ff$l4k@news.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-83-28.bu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@news.bu.edu.
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

Are there any?
I'm going to be graduating with my engineering bachelors next May and
have a strong interest in windpower. 
I was wondering what the job market was like and where windpower firms
are located.
any info would be much appreciated.

Jacob Sutton
email: belanos@acs.bu.edu
 


From drais@crash.cts.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:38 EDT 1994
Article: 646 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!crash!jhd.cts.com!drais
From: drais@crash.cts.com (John H. Drais)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Organization: The Paracelsian Order
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 15:52:42 GMT
Message-ID: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]
References: <Pine.3.87.9407271443.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> <31921i$qo6@search01.news.aol.com>
Keywords: waterbed cover
Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem)
Nntp-Posting-Host: jhd.cts.com
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

> ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
>mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

>Shadowfax

Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may be too 
hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or over easy?)

By the way, we have a 264 acre retreat in sunny Southern CA that we are just 
now looking to convert and switch off the grid. This is a great place to visit 
for anyone wishing to help us design a practical system affordable by a poor 
monastery. If anyone responds I will provide particulars.



John H Drais
The Paracelsian Order
18372 Highway 94
Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA


From Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:11:39 EDT 1994
Article: 647 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-352-111-0!Jim.Richardson
From: Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Richardson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
Message-ID: <ecb_9408012147@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 23:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 

VLV> From: vescovo@netcom.com (Victor Lance Vescovo)
VLV> Date: 15 Jul 94 04:09:22 GMT

VLV> Ivo Roper (ivo@remarque.berkeley.edu) wrote:
VLV> : Howdy all,


VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have
VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current
VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be
VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a
VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
VLV> by
VLV> flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Two solutions, 1, use two contra-rotating flywheels, one located within
the other, the precession can be balanced out in this manner. Or 2)
couple the flywheel inductively, with electromagnets, and allow the
flywheel to precess all it wants on magnetic bearings. Both solutions
are workable, both are used in other applications.

                Jim Ricardson
        Patriot, pagan and proud of it.


From etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:40 EDT 1994
Article: 648 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas40c45!etxgfn
From: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se (Gunnar Forsgren)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Followup-To: sci.energy
Date: 2 Aug 1994 10:02:26 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31l5ji$gs0@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
Reply-To: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas40c45.eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-User: etxgfn
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:23661 alt.energy.renewable:648
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
for producing energy for a whole household.

There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.

Can some of you provide me with information regarding

- U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
  small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.

- Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 

- Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.


I will then pass this info on to my brother.

Thanks,

---
Gunnar Forsgren             <etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se>
Ericsson Telecom, Sweden    "Personal interests"





From sflack@moose.uvm.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:41 EDT 1994
Article: 649 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 2 Aug 1994 12:03:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.

			Sarah Flack


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:42 EDT 1994
Article: 650 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:48:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 35
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408020729.A28168-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <31l5ji$gs0@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 2 Aug 1994, Gunnar Forsgren wrote:

> I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
> in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
> those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
> Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
> for producing energy for a whole household.
> 
> There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.
> Can some of you provide me with information regarding
> 
> - U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
>   small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.
> - Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 
> - Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.

  I would reccomend your brother speak with Don Harris a manufacturer of 
small hydro power plants (408.425.7652) about this and also Bob-O Schultz 
at Electron Connection (916.475.3401). I'm not aware of any clubs per say.

  The Best body of information on small hydro has probably been in Home 
Power magazine. Over the years they've run many articles on this and the 
related types of stuff you mention (inverters, batteries, controls, 
etc.). International surface subscriptions run $20 or $44US via airmail 
to Europe. If your brother is sincerely interested in home-scale power 
generation it would be a great investment. The article text and graphics 
from the first 37 issues is on the SOLAR-1 CDROM (ISO9660 format) which 
is priced at $32 including shipping via air to Europe (Issue 42 is just 
now reaching subscribers). You can reach Home Power Magazine at 
916.475.3179 or via mail at PO. Box 520, Ashland Oregon 97520 (they also 
sell the CD).




From ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:43 EDT 1994
Article: 651 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!ericom!olga!ehsbpe
From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: olga.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
the grid". 
There are some people in Sweden that has been found
"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
been crossing their grounds.
The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
electric hazards etc.

Borje Persson 


From gbalfanz@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:44 EDT 1994
Article: 652 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!gbalfanz
From: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz)
Subject: Best charge controller?
Message-ID: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 14:47:26 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.

I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.

Thanks, Greg


                      \|/
            /\        -O-         
           /  \       /|\         
          /    \   /\             
         /      \ /  \  Deep in the heart of Texas hill country
        /  /\    /    \        /\    /\  /\      /\            /\/\/\  /\
       /  /  \  /      \      /  \/\/  \/  \  /\/  \/\  /\  /\/ / /  \/  \  
      /  /    \/ /\     \    /    \ \  /    \/ /   /  \/  \/  \  /    \   \
     /  /      \/  \/\   \  /      \    /   /    \
  __/__/_______/___/__\___\__________________________________________________



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:11:45 EDT 1994
Article: 653 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 2 Aug 1994 15:05:21 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31lnbh$fht@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 20109@ericsson.se, ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
> I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
> energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
> the grid". 
> There are some people in Sweden that has been found
> "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
> been crossing their grounds.
I have been playing with fluorecent light under a big power line for a lot of
years ago. We had a small cabin that was "powered" by induction from the HV-line.
We used an old fence wire to collect the power.
> The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
> between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
> The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
> has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
> By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
> have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
> Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
> can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
> anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
> understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
> magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
> electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
> electric hazards etc.
> 
> Borje Persson 
It's still a crime in Sweden, and I think they regulary "ping" the 
lines for checking the impedance of the net. With the technologi of today it's
easy to detect if something has been changed and also the position of the change.
So I think you must have a better lawyer than the power company..............
/oo
The opinion above is my own etc.







From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:46 EDT 1994
Article: 654 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching power through induction
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:44:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
use.
     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.


Shadowfax




From bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:49 EDT 1994
Article: 655 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!brian
From: bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 2 Aug 1994 17:29:44 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 11
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[2601]
Message-ID: <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> 
 <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>  
 <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chem_sth-mac3.sdsu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@4.224.191.130.in-addr.arpa.
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
> -- 

It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
S.D. Brian


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:50 EDT 1994
Article: 656 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Space Blanket
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:39:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31m3sd$iqo@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>, drais@crash.cts.com (John H.
Drais) writes:

"Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may
be too hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or
over easy?)"

     I had thought of this but, if I remember correctly, they make a lot
of crinkling noise when you move them around. The throw-blankets are soft
and quiet, and cost less than $10 at Target. The girlfriend is very
thermally efficient with a sunny disposition, but never over easy ("hey -
you're on my side again! <pokepoke>) <G>.

Shadowfax




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:11:51 EDT 1994
Article: 657 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775843917@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:11:57 GMT
References: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl> <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 

I don't know too many people who have a 120 foot drop across their property.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:11:52 EDT 1994
Article: 658 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:14:03 GMT
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:

|In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
|| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
|| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
|| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

|More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
|Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
|energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
|silicon.

The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:53 EDT 1994
Article: 659 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCtx9I8.E01@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:15:44 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>,
Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS <ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.

I believe they would have to be parallel to the poser lines.

>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.

Generating voltage is trivial. The problem is what happens when you add
a load to the line. What kind of current can you draw, and what happens
to the voltage when you draw the current. If attaching a 220 volt lamp
causes the voltage at the lamp to sag to 10 volts, it becomes kind of
useless.

>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

That actually is possible, but not with the simple induction pickup
described above. I would think that a workable secondary (in effect you
are creating a transformer) would be quite noticable to the
authorities, and might involve some trespass.

>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

That sounds like an urban legend.



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:54 EDT 1994
Article: 660 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Power consumtion of Peltier junction coolers
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:01:38
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170138@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <793_9407161839@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <3145uq$dgo@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:24:10 -0400
Status: O
X-Status: 

datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:
   (Ken Finney) writes:
   >Has anyone out there measured the current at 12 V required to run one
   >of those coolers that use Peltier junctions to stay cold?  I understand
   >they
   >aren't very efficient and take quite a lot of current, but how much is "a
   >lot"?

   I believe that the average 36 quart size cooler using Peltier junctions
   uses 4.5amps at 12vdc with an average of 2.5 amps per hour if the cooler
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		
   is thermostatically controlled.

I think you mean an "average of 2.5 amps," (or even "2.5 amp-hours per hour.")
but not "amps per hour"
Amps are a unit of current, Coulombs per second 
(i.e. 6 times 10^18th  electrons per second) 
So you want the average current, (not the average current per hour, 
which doesn't really make sense unless your talking about how the
current changes (which you are not).

A small point but I think it is important to be precise on these 
technicall matters.



Useing your numbers the cooler would use 54 Watts peek, and 30 Watts
average, which does seem kind of high to me (but not wrong.)
I would think what is inside and how often it is used  is also a big 
factor in effecientcy.  I remembering from years ago but I think
Peltier junctions are about 4% effecient. The Navy invested large
sums of money in the early 60s trying to make them more effecient
and basicly ran out of thing to try.  If they were very effeicent
they would be used instead of solar cells since they work both ways--
electricity to heat and heat to electricity. (this last sentence
is a vast over simplification so don't flame me for it).

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:56 EDT 1994
Article: 661 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:06:24
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <dmackieCsMu39.BLz@netcom.com> <3146oq$dnh@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:38:01 -0400
Status: O
X-Status: 

datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:

   {....]
   My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
   solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
   battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Thats 550 watt hours per day.
A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu.


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:57 EDT 1994
Article: 662 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:41:17
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2174117@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <191_9407261707@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org's message of 24 Jul 94 19:37:00 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton) writes:
   The main draw back is that DC is a little different in that running
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      
   wires all over a large house could add enough resistance that the end
   voltage drop might be a problem. Also, switching might prove to be a
   slight problem. If you use 12 volt lights and install normal switches in
   the wall to turn them on and off the contacts in the switches may <in
   the future> give you a problem. One of the tecnical people on this echo
   could probably explain why. I have heard that placeing a capacitor
   accross the switch can help cure the problem.

The difference is not DC vs AC it is 12volt vs 120 volt.  
Using lower voltage requires more current for the same power.
Power (watts) = Current (amps) times Voltage (volts).
Since voltage losses to resistance is proportional to current 
you get more of a voltage drop with less current. (this can 
be compensated for by using lower resistance wires.)  You
can also measure the resistance of the wires using an ohm
meter.  Since Voltage = Current times resistance, you can 
tell howmuch voltage you will lose.  The best and safest 
way to do this is to get a length of the identical wire you are
useing and see what the resistance is. Then you could calculate
how much voltage drop you had for a given current and length of
wire.

As for swithes wearing out: The problem is from arcing when the
switch is turned on and off.  This has to do with the inductance 
of the whole circuit. Inductance causes the voltage to change
inorder to try to maintain the current that is flowing. It seems
that there would be two effects: the higher current causing of 12V
systems, but since the voltage is lower there would be less 
tendency to arc (i.e. break down the air between the contacts, 
which means current will flow through the air until the gap 
got bigger).  Off hand I don't know which is worse but if
the 120V swithces have problems with 12V systems then the higher
current must be the dominate effect, or the inductance of 12V systems
is higher.


This is just off the top of my head...

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu






From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:58 EDT 1994
Article: 663 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: WATTS are POWER !
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:21:13
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2172113@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <CtKMxK.22E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 27 Jul 1994 05:57:44 -0000
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

   > Please folks:
   > 
   >  a WATT is a measurement of POWER not ENERGY
   > 
   > "my xyz gismo generated 250 watts par day" is a totally meaningless statement!
   > 
   > If you want ENERGY you can use all sorts of units, such as WATT-HOURS.

	Hi Stan, 
	    I agree with you about the watt-hours bit but over the years 
   when I've used that expression I get a bunch of "huh?'s" so I pretty much 
   gave up and go with the flow. It's a valid technical point but most folks 
   understand what is meant on some level. Feel free to use the right 
   expression but don't feel too bad that the majority is likely to keep on 
   saying "watts" instead.
	    What's the proper abreviation for the term?
		 DCK

Sorry I didn't read this before correcting you again.
But it makes a big difference if people use the wrong units.
Everyone who gets their power from the grid gets billed for 
kilowatt-hours which is of course 1000 watt-hours.  Perhaps 
if you used kilowatt-hours you would not get the "huh's" 
because it is more common. IF you get "huh?'s" maybe you should
try to learn to explain what you mean so people can understand them.

Using incorrect terminology does NOT make anything
clearer. It makes people who understand these thing question whether
you know what your talking about or not. If you say your light
bulb uses 250 watts per day then I don't understand what you mean
on any level What I do understand is that you don't understand what 
your talking about! 


lewis@chaos.ph.utexas
 


From dbrewste@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:11:59 EDT 1994
Article: 664 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:04:58 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

brian (bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

: > What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
: > -- 

: It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
: to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
: that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
: see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
: S.D. Brian

Oh, I see.  The cops can't tell red people from green people under the 
lights (:-)


Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:11:59 EDT 1994
Article: 665 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:20:58
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2182058@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <hatunenCtnotr.1oy@netcom.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 28 Jul 1994 22:50:12 -0000
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

   > Watts/hour being a nonsense unit, I will assume you mean output is
   > 50-60 watts, meaning he can't even light a decent reading lamp with
   > this. Since 60 watts for 24 hours is 1440 watt-hours, this sounds
   > correct. But my goodness, what's the point?

     I'll pass on your first comment; I phrased it that way for clarity.
								^^^^^^^
wrong!
   Everything is relative to one's mindset. I can power 3 OSRAM compact 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes some people don't care if they are wrong and confusing.

   flourescent 20 watt lamps with 60 watts and read quite well (with one 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes, 3 times 20 equal sixty so this makes sense. 

   lamp). In the context of your grid connected home 1400 watts might not 
   seem like a lot but to folks off the grid it's heaven. 1400watts will 
							  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   power a 16 cu. ft Sunfrost refridgerator for a day plus run 6 OSRAM 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   20w lamps for 5 hours and let me run my stereo for 6 hours. My energy 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
wrong
   budget for our new home is a little less than 4kWh per day. I wish we had 
yeah! you got it right!				 ^^^^
   a hydro resource because I'd love to have an extra 1400 watts day...
wrong!						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

How many times have you been correct any you still get it wrong!
This is not clarity it is  wrong and confusing. Energy is not
power. They mean two different things.  You do not help matters
by confusing the two. You do not go to the store and buy 50 Watt-hour 
solar pannels, you buy 50 Watt pannels.  1400 watts will POWER anything
that uses 1400 watts or less for as long as you have 1400 watts.  If
you have 1400 watts plus storage then you can power things that that
use more than 1400 watts as long as you generate more Energy (watt hours)
than you use! 

learn the difference between energy and power.
If you want help e-mail me directly and I will try to clear it.
Really If you give the impression that you know what you are
talking about then people will take you more seriously.  You give
impression of someone that is entusiastic and has gotten alternative
energy to work for you, but also someone who's opinions and advice
I would  be cautious of.

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From gmoke@world.std.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:01 EDT 1994
Article: 666 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!world!gmoke
From: gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:35:02 GMT
Lines: 7
Status: O
X-Status: 

: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
: >photovoltaic effect.

	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:02 EDT 1994
Article: 667 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:33:36 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
>FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
>between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
>of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
>use.

Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 

Besides, theft is a criminal law matter.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:04 EDT 1994
Article: 668 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:48:10 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:

>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> 
> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
         DCK
 



From Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:04 EDT 1994
Article: 669 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power...& Miracles
Message-ID: <441_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 16:40:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ron Perepolkin
Status: O
X-Status: 


 RP>    I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
 RP> posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
 RP> electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
 RP> following passage.

 RP>    "The neighbors commented on how the usual
 RP> dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
 RP> with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
 RP> From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

 RP>    Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
 RP> lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
 RP> *light pollution*???

    Some are, these folks definatly aren't...

    This article I posted from Home Power magazine is about bringing
electricity to  rural area of Sri Lanka that has never had electricity. They
aren't using the power from their smallish solar panel to purposely light the
area around their thatched hut, it refers to the light that escapes the
building in very stark contrast to the darkness that has been the norm for
centuries. If yours is the only electric light for miles around even a 15 watt
small flourescent will stick out like a 1000w metal halide does in a rural
american community.
    This was about enabling a people to expand their lives and the
possibilities of their future with the application of a little light. Now
people can read, work on crafts, sew, etc. when before they were slaves to the
setting sun. Their lives can be fuller in a lot of respects than it could
before.
    DCK


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:05 EDT 1994
Article: 670 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-compute
Message-ID: <442_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-13-94  22:15, through the porthole we saw
-<Elvis Hargrove say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 EH> That's why I offered to supply a few of these extraordinarily
 EH> cheap!  I'll NEVER use all the monitors I got at the auction, and
 EH> they're exceptionally well built and rugged.
[snip]

 EH> I've got 'em.  Just send netmail!
 EH> ^..^

I'll keep you in mind if I ever get enough $$ to replace this
computer.  You're not ENTHUSIASTIC about them are you? :-))

Jeff

... Fish to Live, Live to Fish
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:06 EDT 1994
Article: 671 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:51:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-14-94  19:42, through the porthole we saw
-<Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
 TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
 TW> wind generator.

Yes, but it will most likely be quite a while before I can find
the little ad I tore out...

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:07 EDT 1994
Article: 672 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <479_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 63
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

hay ya'll,
   Sunday 31-Jul-94 15:02:53  
 been noticing that some people(tho no one in this echo;'>)  are advocating 
that electricVehicles would actually be more polluting than the messes of 
internalCombustion engines we have now. .                        ^ ;'>
 . .this is a bunch of completely and uterly foolishly inane NONSENSE!!!
in fact that STUPID concept doesn't even deserve much disscussion,
but let me tell you what i think anyway;'>
 even considering that ePower plants continue to mostly use EVIL sources 
like coal, oil, nuclear(fission), and hydra(when *conventional* dammed
hydraElectric dies it will go to Purgatory. . uhh no pun intended;)  anyway,
 even IF we do stay evil and not use clean sources like solar, hydrogen, 
atomic(fussion), wind, squirrel, geoThermall, ETC.  There is noWay that having
millions(billions?) of IC's *all over the place* smoking in you face 
and down squirrel holes, chokeing birds out of trees, and dripping oil 
*everywhere*  would be better than having all that polution efficiently
concentrated at a few large plants which can be regulated, and tuned, 
and kept clean much more (efficient)effectively
 But forget about all that there are much better ways of powering 
transportation than on the eclectric power grid.  
EV's would be much more cost effective and less poluting if charged via solar, 
both on the car and on a more powerful setup at home; and how about partial
charging via alternator (recycle! :).   Tho i think the best way to go is 
hydrogen IC,   you can generate enough current (i think,) to split water with 
only the internal alternator(not to even mention solar). this can be done in 
internaly(realtime? :) on the road. Can you say: "my car is out of gas, can i 
use your hose?". I can see the Evian stickers now, "Powered by the Swiss Alps".
A recolection system is not to unfeasable either. Can you say: "infinite fuel
supply" !!!  
 oh did i mention that probably the best way to run any IC (or even indirect
IC like steam)  is with the bladeless turbine, an invention of Nicoli Tesla
(a fellow Slav too i might add:). the bladeless turbine operates on friction
with a moving fluid instead of impact; traditional turbines (say at Hoover dam)
work by the fluid (water) hitting the blades head on and by the force of 
impact turns the turbine.  in Tesla's bladeless turbine the fluid runs *more*
parallel to the "turbine" and pulls it along via the friction betwixt the 
device and the fluid.  btw gas(air) IS a fliud.    nother thing, the bladless
turbine motor needs one moving part!
 on the subj of turbins and tubers:  the bladeless turbinE would likely be 
more efficient in hydra and wind electric;  dig this instead of damning the 
river (pun intended), a series of BT's, each running in to the next, and set
near the top of the water level and screened off(to prevent the enterence of 
creatures), with the river continuing to flow over, under, and around the setup
  Or on a smaller scale water flows into the turbine gravity feed style 
(ie. funneled into smaller and smaller pipes, greatly increasing the pressure).
  this can work for wind power too (funneling it down) but obviously wouldn't 
be feasible on a small scale. Tho all space that mass wind power plants take 
up i wonder if it wouldn't be feasible to use BT's, (again maybe even in 
series, so one flows into an other smaller. .)
 i hav been working on all of these things tho mostly in me head at this point
i think i'll be working on some practical results soon.
 btw all of the GOOD power sources i mentioned above can be used in large scale
power plants, yes especially squirrels. and think about this any plants that 
operate by burning things could easily be converted to hydrogen w/out much 
new equipment, just (get this) solar panels for electrolizing water and the 
equipment and plumbing to actualy do the electrolisys and get the H to the 
place where it is burned.

of course, i'm no expert ;'>
            zachariahCzeck@willits;'>
             jason organist   jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:08 EDT 1994
Article: 673 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <47a_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Aug 94 05:53:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 01-Aug-94 00:21:40
 willits,california,usa,earth,solsystem,westernarm,milkyway,primeplane...
hey  hey  hey  h-h-hey hey hey  hey  hey  heeeyy h-h-heyheyheyh-gitchYer
handsoffa maee-hey hey h-h-heyh-heyhey well i dont knowww. . . er. . um
. .wrong brainSector...
..hey hey h#@&#!%&
DAMN...sorry...
hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their location 
somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or somfin
 It's really cool to know where people are comming from  + it really sucks to 
read posts that go like this:  "Yeah, well way out here we don't even have
[insert appropriate commodity] and we have to drive 587,642 miles just to 
get to a place where you can even look at a picture of it." .
which always leaves scratching my head and saying that, yeah, i can see 
that sort of problem arising way out on Mars!
 cool to know the real date too
zachariahCzeck willits
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From lschlos@pica.army.mil Fri Aug  5 10:12:09 EDT 1994
Article: 674 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!ovation!metis.pica.army.mil!user
From: lschlos@pica.army.mil (Lanny Schlosberg)
Subject: EV Owners in NE USA
Message-ID: <lschlos-020894050305@metis.pica.army.mil>
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Sender: usenet@pica.army.mil (USENET Special Account <usenet>)
Nntp-Posting-Host: metis
Organization: Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey USA
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:03:05 GMT
Lines: 12
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have been in contact with other EV owners on the EV news list, but the
majority have been from California with a few from Florida and the mid-
west.  Are there any EV owners out there within a 50 mile radius of NYC
(I am about 40 miles west of the George Wash Bridge in NJ) and am int-
erested in where other EV owners get various parts, batteries at a good
price, local tech help, and how they have fared in the winter with their
EV's.  I have a 1980 Commuta-Car that I bought 13 years ago, and would 
be glad to share experiences.  If I can find a good buy for new batteries
and the EV auto insurance is not out of sight, I would like to put it
back on the road.  Do any insurance companies offer low rates for EVs.
Mine won't put the EV on the family policy.         lschlos@pica.army.mil
 


From kburtch@pts.mot.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:10 EDT 1994
Article: 675 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!pts-nntp!sun572!kburtch
From: kburtch@pts.mot.com (Kevin Burtch)
Subject: Re: Propane generators
Message-ID: <CtxGnn.9nD@pts.mot.com>
Sender: news@pts.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun572
Reply-To: kburtch@pts.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc, Paging Products Group, Boynton Beach, FL
References: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 21:50:11 GMT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 


I did some research on propane a couple of years ago and found out some
interesting things...

	Propane has an equivalant octane rating of 105 to 130 (depending on
	  who you talk to :) Due to its extreme expansion, going from a
	  compressed liquid to an ambient pressure gas cools the engine
	  intake drastically. Most conversion kits (for cars) actually have
	  heat exchangers to _heat_ the fuel for this reason.

	Propane conversions and dual-fuel systems are much _less_ fuel
	  efficient than burning gasoline unless the above point is taken
	  into consideration. In other words, if you plan to run (only)
	  propane, raise the compression way up! Then they are much _more_
	  efficient. More compression means more power from the same amount
	  of fuel. (they also take to super/turbo-charging quite well :)

	Propane burns _much_ cleaner and more completely than gasoline, as
	  it is already in a gaseous form by the time it gets in the engine.

	Propane engines last much longer because the oil lasts longer... It
	  is contaminated much less by carbon and unburnt liquid fuels, so
	  it not only doesn't break down as fast, but it also looks clean
	  longer :)

One drawback to using propane power is the fact that a (relatively) large 
amount of the exhaust contains water vapor. You have to use a stainless
steel exhaust. :)

Later,
Kevin

P.S. "top end lubrication" is not a problem for any engine designed to run
      on _unleaded_ gasoline, only for old leaded burning engines.

P.P.S. Why is this thread in alt.energy.renewable?
                                          ^ ^ ^   Propane is dead dinosaurs!







From brop9555@utdallas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:11 EDT 1994
Article: 676 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!convex!arco!news.utdallas.edu!not-for-mail
From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 03:43:13 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <31nlb1$kim@utdallas.edu>
References: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: infoserv.utdallas.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: 6994
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From brian@positron.amd.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:12 EDT 1994
Article: 677 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!amd!amdint.amd.com!txnews.amd.com!positron!brian
From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <Ctyrwo.ArD@txnews.amd.com>
Sender: news@txnews.amd.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: positron
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 14:50:47 GMT
Lines: 25
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:13 EDT 1994
Article: 678 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 3 Aug 1994 11:55:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31oekn$aja@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax




From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:14 EDT 1994
Article: 679 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: 3 Aug 1994 16:04:41 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <bailey-0308940914520001@hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From jocoats@amoco.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:15 EDT 1994
Article: 680 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!news
From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.075815.29936@amoco.com>
Sender: news@amoco.com
Reply-To: jocoats@amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Corportation
References: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 07:58:15 CDT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org




From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:16 EDT 1994
Article: 681 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 17:57:52 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 43
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:17 EDT 1994
Article: 682 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!cyanamid!ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com!sopchakd
From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Subject: Re: Wasted powerrREGISTER
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.132612.1@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com>
Summary: Wasted lighting?
Lines: 38
Sender: news@cyanamid.uucp
Organization: AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:26:12 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian) writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com



From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:18 EDT 1994
Article: 683 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:43:33 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <31nos5$e21@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:19 EDT 1994
Article: 684 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural electrification
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:48:14 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <31np4u$e21@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:12:20 EDT 1994
Article: 685 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!mandla
From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV standards enquiry
Date: 3 Aug 1994 10:51:06 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31nsqq$gtn@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk Fri Aug  5 10:12:20 EDT 1994
Article: 686 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!nhopton.demon.co.uk!Nick
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Distribution: world
References: <Pine.3.87.9408010021.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Organization: Home, in Reading, England.
Reply-To: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29
Lines: 14
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 18:41:56 +0000
Message-ID: <775852916snz@nhopton.demon.co.uk>
Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From massagja@pegate.byu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:21 EDT 1994
Article: 687 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news.byu.edu!news
From: massagja@pegate.byu.edu (John Massaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car Newsclip
Date: 3 Aug 1994 21:23:33 GMT
Organization: Brigham Young University
Lines: 101
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[4338]
Message-ID: <31p1sl$5cg@bones.et.byu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sprawl.byu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@103187128in-addrarpa
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Guys.
I found this article here on the byu.news newsgroup.  I thought that
you all might find it interesting.  Enjoy!

---------snip---------

BYU Professor Seeks "Model A" Approach to Electric Cars


     PROVO, Utah (Aug. 1, 1994)--Total electric cars have been
available for decades, but it took a totaled automobile to inspire
a BYU professor to build a unique new electric car high in
practicality and low on cost. 
     Engineering professor Robert  H. Todd says he has long been
intrigued with the idea of building an electric car with "off the
shelf," or readily available items. His is a low-tech approach
where components designed for other purposes are  converted into
parts for an electric vehicle. 
     He wanted his car to extend beyond the realm of golf cart or
a very short distance vehicle.  Yet he also wanted to avoid the
$40,000 to $60,000 price tag associated with electric vehicle
prototypes from major automobile manufacturers who are scrambling
to comply with a California law.  After 1998 California will
require any company selling more than 35,000 vehicles a year to
have two percent of them be zero emission vehicles.  Electric cars
are the only known zero emission motorcar existing today.
     "Their researchers are going along the high-tech highway, but
the costs are so expensive,  the cars in development are beyond the
affordability and interest of the average American driver," Todd
says.  "I take my motivation from Henry Ford and his Model T and 
Model A cars.  Ford thrived on a foundation of simple parts put
together well.  Ford also had a strong ethic of giving people what
they wanted and could afford, something I firmly believe is a key
to manufacturing success."
     After one of his sons had an accident in the smaller of Todd's
two family cars, the engineer--who worked his way through school as
a mechanic--decided to test his hypothesis that he could build a
sensible, desirable car that would cost less than $10,000 and be
inexpensive to operate.
     "I wanted a car I could drive back and forth to work every
day," he explains. "I bought a 1993 Ford Festiva, took everything
apart and donated the engine and all the engine components to BYU. 
I listed the features and functions I wanted for the car and
brainstormed different ways to get those results."
     He obtained his motor from a company in New York, batteries
from California and other components from suppliers in Salt Lake
City and around the country.  As he analyzed the functions he
needed, he realized he was designing a family's second car, the one
driven on errands around town instead of the vehicle used for long
trips.
     "From the extensive research I did before I started the
project, I learned that 85 percent of all American cars are driven
fewer than 35 miles a day," he says.  "I wanted an affordable car
that filled the needs for that kind of use."
      Todd's electric motor has only one moving part, compared to
the multi-component standard internal combustion engine.  It will
produce 82 horsepowers at 120 volts and go approximately 100 miles
at 45 miles per hour on a single charge.  Its top speed ranges
between 65 and 70 miles per hour.
     "I charge it a couple of times a week by plugging it into a
normal 110-volt outlet overnight," Todd says.  "I estimate
electricity costs about a penny a mile, or about 100 miles to the
gallon if gasoline costs a dollar a gallon.  When gasoline is
higher than that, the electric car is even more economical."
     Among the advantages of an electric car is the maximum torque,
or power from the motor that occurs when the car is started.  "You
get a sensation of quite a bit of acceleration when you first
accelerate the car compared with an internal combustion engine
where you have to get the engine revved up to obtain reasonable
torque valves.  Electric cars are very quiet and simple in their
construction, which should allow them to be maintained easily. The
horsepower rating is similar to what you find in a regular car."
     Happy with his vehicle, but not content that it is a finished
product, Todd is working to solve new problems.  He is thinking of
ways to decrease rolling resistance in tires, so there is less
friction.  He is working on cooling and heating devices that are
not so draining on the batteries, and is experimenting with an
element from a 1000 watt hair dryer that could provide heat and
warm air and pass through the regular duct system.  A fellow
faculty member, Carl Sorensen, and a student have also been
designing a measure that indicates how much battery charge is left,
with the intent of using the existing fuel gauge.
     The weakest link in the electric car concept, Todd says, is
the battery.  "My car has 850 pounds of batteries and  the total
car weighs about 500 pounds more than it did originally.  This is 
still within the gross vehicle weight allowed for the vehicle. The
future of electric cars is really tied to new battery technology
that is inexpensive, recyclable and has more energy density pound
per weight."
     Todd says he has always enjoyed building things because of
what he learns in the process.  "This project has been a prime
example of that principle."
     He has gained support from Ford, who has donated another car
as a platform for testing electric car components.  California
Edison also has expressed an interest in his technology.

----------snip-----------     

John Massaglia
John_Massaglia@byu.edu    Workers of the World:  Relax!
http://sprawl.byu.edu


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:22 EDT 1994
Article: 688 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:24:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031826.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <775852916snz@nhopton.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Nick Hopton wrote:

> In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:
> 
> > CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> > Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> > DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> > dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...
> 
> Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
> be obliged.

    I'm not sure what is going on exactly....I started posting some 
articles from home power here after uploading them to my unix host and 
then copying them into the message I was composing. Apparently the 
articles look fine on some systems and are total junk on others. Grrr...

   The look fine when I send them to myself but on AOL and some other 
systems they come out trashed. Darn, I'll have to stop posting them until 
I figure out what the problem is...
     DCK




From erg4@acpub.duke.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:23 EDT 1994
Article: 689 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!erg4
From: erg4@acpub.duke.edu (ERNESTO GRUNDSETH)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 00:24:21 GMT
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: teer3.acpub.duke.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

don walli (don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: From: dwalli@mtu.edu (don walli)
: Date: 20 Jul 94 13:33:30 GMT

: Everyone in this thread seems to have touched on, and subsequently
: ignored,
: what seems to be the most likely (most logical? maybe) solution for
: this
: whole process, and that's an overall systems approach. By that, I mean 
: using a system of several different technologies to solve the problem
: (in
: this case, vehicular power).

: Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: (assumed from water).
: What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: modules?
Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
not too good :(
: Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells, but
: electrolysis
: can happen at *very* low voltages, so really high power output is not 
: absolutely essential. And even if your PV cells aren't highly
: efficient--so
: what??? The sun is still *free*. Ross hasn't figured out a way to bill
: us for that one yet.

: So now you have H2, and you're (rightly) concerned about the potential
: output of an H2-powered IC engine. What about using a fuel cell
: instead? Your waste
: output (with the exception of the eventually-depleted catalyst) is very
: low, 
: and now you have electric power in your vehicle (or home, or
: municipality, or whereever you set up the fuel cells. And, yes, the
: fuel cell does introduce some more losses (as the affordable ones are
: not all that efficient). However,I would think that those losses might
: (*might*) be acceptable when
: you consider that the overall system here does not require the use of
: any non-renewable resources (in the generation of the fuel, anyway).


I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
the silicon enviromental???? just wondering

bye
Ernesto Grundseth
erg4@acpub.duke.edu

converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:24 EDT 1994
Article: 690 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:55:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
power and energy in any case. 
    DCK




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:25 EDT 1994
Article: 691 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:35:44 GMT
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

|     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
|transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
|more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.

Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by a
metal box after all.

Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that.
Don't do anything that will prevent the utility workers from gaining
access to the box, or one day you will come home to find your entire
assembly in little bitty pieces in the stree.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:26 EDT 1994
Article: 692 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949957@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:39:17 GMT
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:

|By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
|have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

I find this very hard to believe. FIrst, the best way to couple two wires
magnetically is to run them in parallel. Secondly unless these *parallel*
wires (I do mean wires in plural, you will need many loops to get any
practical power) were practically touching the power company's wires,
there would not be that much magnetic energy to tap.

|Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
|can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
|anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have

Either the laws of evidence or vastly different in sweden or the power
company has extremely incompetent laywers. Proving that the power in
the induction coils came from the power company's lines is trivial from
a physical perspective.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:27 EDT 1994
Article: 693 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950426@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:06 GMT
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu> <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

|Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

Whenever laywers get to work you have a real problem. ;*)
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Fri Aug  5 10:12:28 EDT 1994
Article: 694 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950475@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:55 GMT
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu> <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 16
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com> gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray) writes:

|: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
|: >photovoltaic effect.

|	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
|that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
|the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.

I would have thought that if the light did not escape it would be eventually
turned to heat anyway.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:29 EDT 1994
Article: 695 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 02:13:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031906.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 




> -< through the porthole we saw Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:
> 
>  TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
>  TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
>  TW> wind generator.
> 
    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 
soliciting info to post online (never received)....DCK




From shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au Fri Aug  5 10:12:29 EDT 1994
Article: 696 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Shay Telfer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: (none)
Date: 4 Aug 1994 03:24:19 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408040319.LAA08955@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

help




From communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca Fri Aug  5 10:12:30 EDT 1994
Article: 697 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!deep7.dial.mindlink.bc.ca!communicopia
From: communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca (Communicopia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electricty -- Public Consultation
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:01:46
Organization: MIND LINK! Communications Corp.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <communicopia.8.00150830@mindlink.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: deep7.dial.mindlink.bc.ca
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Can anyone point me to a source of information on public consultation programs 
regarding utilitiy rate increases.  Case studies, methodology, etc. would all 
be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Scott Nelson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             C O M M U N I C O P I A
             Environmental Research and Communications
                 Ph: 604.875.9990          Fx: 604.875.9584
 WWW:  http://interchange.idc.uvic.ca/communicopia/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:31 EDT 1994
Article: 698 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: No Opposing Viewpoints P
Message-ID: <5f3_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 08:25:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 02-Aug-94 03:20:52
           santaRosa,CA,usa :

HHC> Don Kulha, Moderator of this conference, has apparently taken offense
HHC> with some of my postings and followups, making it clear that my
HHC> presence
HHC> is unwanted.  He sums up his opion this way:

HHC> >       This conference is for the discussion of clean, earth-friendly
HHC> > power technology. Nuclear does not meet any of those criteria. If you
HHC> > wish to continue this line of discussion please take it to sci.energy
HHC> > where your idea will find many entusiastic supporters. Lots of GE and
HHC> > Westinghouse folks frequent that discussion. We operate under the
HHC> concept
HHC> > that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles
HHC> away.
HHC> >
HHC> >    Don Kulha
HHC> >      Moderator HOMEPOWER

Harry,  I am *NOT* Don and i cannot speak for him, nor do i want to.
 i have not seen all the postings wich led to this. 
BUT i will tell you what i think ;'>
i do not believe that Don has taken offense to what you said, nor that
this was his reason for asking you to end that PARTICULAR discussion.

i do believe that he made a rebuttal to what you said and then, 
in the same post, but quite separately, he ASKED you to take an 
*offtopic* line of discussion elsewhere. 
 just read for yerself,  it's ALL right there in the passage YOU quoted!

i also very deeply disagree with you being asked to end the discussion
of nuclear power, as i think it definately belongs in the discussion of
alternative energy souces. I am informing Don of this as well.
-by the way this discussion group consists of the original 
 (noninternet)Fidonet ECHO (called Alternative Energy and Home Power)
 linked with the Usenet newsgroup  (?) alt.energy.alternative
 i'm on the Fido side :)

Harry, i disagree wholeheartedly with just about evey word you utered 
after this,  esp. the energy related stuff. But i sincerely hope you
will not end you correspondence here as i value free discussion, not
only for the exchange of ideas but because everyone has the innate 
right to say what they feel.
 i think (from what you said in this post) that you will find that
in this group(in general) peoples attitudes and beliefs are much 
different than what you have been led to believe (incl Don's :).
Please stick around...at least so we can  ;'> educate ;'>  you and
woop ya into shape ;)
Not now, but i for one have some meaty replies comming.

Too all-
  you know i've noticed that 99% of all angry or hurt replies come
  from people who, it SEEMS, just didn't read the offending msg,
  or, more broadly: They didn't listen fully to what to what was 
  said.
   here's some advice to ya'll -we all deserve to be listened to 
  fairly; and you, AT LEAST, owe it to a person to hear
  (really *hear*) what they have to say before ya get all pissed-off.
  Don't you think??

zachariahCzeck@willits ;'>
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:32 EDT 1994
Article: 699 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?!?  Noway!!
Message-ID: <5f4_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 09:03:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 02-Aug-94 04:02:06
santaRosa,CA,usa :

DK>      This conference is for the discussion of clean, earth-friendly
DK> power technology. Nuclear does not meet any of those criteria. If you
DK> wish to continue this line of discussion please take it to sci.energy
DK> where your idea will find many entusiastic supporters. Lots of GE and
DK> Westinghouse folks frequent that discussion. We operate under the
DK> concept
DK> that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles
DK> away.

Don, i totally disagree with you that nuclear power is not worthy 
of discussion here. this is a discussion group set up so that people
can FREELY exchange ideas and info on related subjects, right?
 now, before you start, i know that topics open for discussion here
are necissarily limited do to practicality, and limited resources
and energy especially on the Fido side. But along with discussion 
of alternate energy souces comes disc of all energy; and, 
specificaly, the context in wich Harry is using nucular ;) 
energy IS as an alternative.
Again, i believe you have no right to throw that discussion out.
 zachariahCzeck


Too all-
  you know i've noticed that 99% of all angry or hurt replies come
  from people who, it SEEMS, just didn't read the offending msg,
  or, more broadly: They didn't listen fully to what to what was 
  said.
   here's some advice to ya'll -we all deserve to be listened to 
  fairly; and you, AT LEAST, owe it to a person to hear
  (really *hear*) what they have to say before ya get all pissed-off.
  Don't you think??
zachariahCzeck@willits ;'>
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:33 EDT 1994
Article: 700 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Egt?  Get?  Teg?  Gte
Message-ID: <61b_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Brewster
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Where can I get a calibration curve for one of those?

Afraid you'll hve to make your own, Dick.  Actually since EGT is a relative
thing, a calibration chart is sort of gilding the lilly, but you certainly
could calibrate it with low temp melting metals to establish several
calibration points, or you could take one to a foundry where they have an
accurate pyrometer and just calibrate it against that.

-> Any reason why it won't work on a large engine?

Absolutely none.  They work FINE on big engines.  I know where there's a
Waukesha on natural gas with one of my EGT probes on it.  On a REALLY big
engine it's nice to mount it on a relatively light section of exhaust pipe to
avoid thermal lag.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:36 EDT 1994
Article: 701 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <61c_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:56:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Coats
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> I'd like one that runs on natural gas... Especially if it is fairly quiet...

That's up to YOU Jack. Mufflers are an art not a science.  <grin>  BUT, natural
gas engines really are somewhat quieter than gasoline and substantially so
compared to diesels.  YMMVH


-> Are there any 'cheap' methods of conversion from gas to nat'l gas?


Sure!  It doesn't get much cheaper than a gas pipe stuffed down the carb
throat to near the throttle butterfly. Or you can "spud" a gas carburetor by
drilling through the side near the venturii to introduce a vapor entry.
I have a method I use on Tillotson carbs where I just remove the float bowl and
screw a vapor connector straight into the pickup where the main jet goes for
gasoline.

In any or all these systems the vapor-fuel pressure must be regulated
carefully, but with a little care either system will remain fairly
throttleable, and therefore governable.

Crude, but CHEAP and I've used these systems for years.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:37 EDT 1994
Article: 702 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <61d_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 07:17:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the
-> "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it
-> great enough to worry about?

No.  Mag South is close enough unless you live somewhere with weird magnetic
deviation.

If you really want to get picky, SOLAR south moves slightly throughout the
year.  On any given day solar south is where the sun is at local solar noon.
(The spot where the sun is highest in it's travels.)

MEAN solar south is the average of these various annual locations.

   ^..^


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:38 EDT 1994
Article: 703 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hi
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:52:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 11
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408041443.JAA08726@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello!  It's great to see a newsgroup I can really relate to!  I've missed
out on the first few weeks of this group because I couldn't find a news
server that carries it.  So I went the mailing list route.

Could someone send me a FAQ on this group (if it exists) or the "Welcome to
alt.energy.renewable" file (if it exists).  Thanks.

Ben Fiore
befiore@students.wisc.edu
(see HP#37 "PV in the City" for background)



From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:39 EDT 1994
Article: 704 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:18:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 69
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408040947.A3669-0100000@laminar.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 3 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 
Don,  
	I am glad to see your reply.  If you make sure you are correct,
then when people complain you can point out that you are using the
correct units and explain why.  That way you can win, and you would be 
providing a service by educating others. The more people understand 
alternative energy the better off we all will be.

	Now that you seem reponsive I'll try to help clear up some
confusion. Power is energy per unit time. That is, how quickly energy
is being used or produced. Energy is measured in watt-hours (or Joules,
3600 joules equal 1 watt hour) Power is measured in watts (1 watt is a 
Joule per second). 

A simple example: Running a 60 watt light bulb for one hour uses
60 watt-hours of energy.  A 100 watt light bulb run for a half
hour uses 50 watt-hours.  So the 100 watt light bulb uses more
power (i.e. uses energy faster) but in this example it uses
less energy because it is turned on for a shorter period of time.

What is also obviously important is the effeciency of light bulbs.
The power rating on a light bulb is determined by how much power
it uses, not by how much light it produces (how bright something
is can also be measured in power).  Compact flourescents are a good
idea because far more of the energy is converted to light than for
a regualar incandecent light bulb (which converts most of the energy
to heat), so they are just as bright for much less energy.

The above example is pretty straight foward but lets look at something
alittle less obvious. Take a 1500 watt refridgerator vs a 2000 watt
refidgerator. What would use less energy?  Well from what I've told 
said you have no way of knowing.  The power on appliences tells you
how much energy the applience uses while it is on, it does not
tell you what percentage of the time it is on.  So an effeicent
well insulated 2000 watt refidgerator may use far less energy
than a 1500 watt refridgerator even though it uses more power,
simply because its compressor would be running less often.

The same sort of comparison can be made for producing energy.
A 1000 watt low head hydro plant may produce far more energy
than A 2500 watt solar cell array, simply because it produce
energy all day and all night while the solar cells only
produce energy during part of the day. The solar cell array
produces energy faster (i.e. more power) but only when
the sun is shinning.  

Thats a start.  I think you'll be able to make better choices
if you have no confusion about these definitions.


Greg.





From dwalli@mtu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:40 EDT 1994
Article: 705 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 3 Aug 1994 18:34:08 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31p610$3qu@lilbuddy.hu>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com> <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lilbuddy.hu.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu

Sarah E. Flack (sflack@moose.uvm.edu) wrote:
: We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
: where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
: our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
: climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
: We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
: falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
: panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
: of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
: and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
: is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.
: 
: 			Sarah Flack
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Fri Aug  5 10:12:41 EDT 1994
Article: 706 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hydrogen storage
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:57:28 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408041548.KAA14565@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
>I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
>cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
>an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
>this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
>generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
>the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

There's a firm here in Madison, WI called Energy Islands International that
sells off the shelf PV and wind systems that power self-pressurizing
hydrogen electrolyzers.  The compressed hydrogen is then burned cleanly in
an engine-generator set.  I've heard it works great.

access:  Alex DePillis, Energy Islands Int'l
         111 King St., Madison, WI 53703
         (608) 284-0700



From hatunen@netcom.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:42 EDT 1994
Article: 707 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <hatunenCu0LLn.LCJ@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 14:29:46 GMT
Lines: 33
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
>folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
>seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 

I would think you would see your role as at least partly an eductional
one. Why not use the terms correctly? To claim that correct terminolgy
confuses things is absurd. After all, if you drove on a long trip would
you say "I went 65 miles per hour per day"? That's how retarded misuse
of electrical terminology looks.

>I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
>a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
>week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
>magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
>permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
>power and energy in any case. 

I really hate to sound abusive, but it's almost impossible to discuss
this subject properly and usefully unless you do understand the
difference: it makes the difference between feasible and ridiculous.




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug  5 10:12:44 EDT 1994
Article: 708 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:29:09 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31qtvl$85u@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 


It seems to me there is correlation between people using their own home 
made units and american programmers...........
I had a lot of problems working with some Americans, they could never adapt
to international standards (SI units) of writing the units for speed, 
distance, time, volume, current, voltage and a lot of other things.
(One of them was a formal professor ! (the Univ. feedback)).
It's very nice and easy using SI units, You don't need a lot of conversion
factors.
Is this antipathy against standards something typical for programmers or is it
just some american style of living ?

the opinion above is my own etc.....
/oö



From btwatts@vnet.ibm.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:45 EDT 1994
Article: 709 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!locutus.rchland.ibm.com!brophy.rchland.ibm.com!watts
From: watts@brophy.rchland.ibm.com (Byron Watts)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:26:14 GMT
Organization: IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31r1am$1fn2@locutus.rchland.ibm.com>
References: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <Pine.3.87.9408031906.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: btwatts@vnet.ibm.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: brophy.rchland.ibm.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
>the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
>MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 

I called the number and found it disconnected....

--

Byron T. Watts (Tops)

My opinions are my opinions.

IBM:	     RCHLAND(WATTS)
Internet:  btwatts@vnet.ibm.com

There is an alarming increase in the number of topics I know nothing about.


From mshadowfax@aol.com Fri Aug  5 10:12:46 EDT 1994
Article: 710 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 4 Aug 1994 11:57:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31r34h$6r9@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) writes:

"Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by
a
metal box after all."

     I've already done some prelim testing and that's about the speed of
it.

"Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that. Don't do anything that will
prevent the utility workers from gaining access to the box, or one day you
will come home to find your entire assembly in little bitty pieces in the
stree."

     Funny - up until I cleared it out a year ago the only way you could
tell there was a box anywhere in the bushes was by the humming noise.
Since I don't live anywhere near a nuclear reactor that might have leaked
I doubted it was the plants - so it had to be a transformer.

Shadowfax




From Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:47 EDT 1994
Article: 711 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2330-4-0!Darr.Hoag
From: Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org (Darr Hoag)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <142_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:05 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA -
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 

@00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
> hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their 
> location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or
> somfin

Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

... Electricians do it in hot boxes!


From Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:48 EDT 1994
Article: 712 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Paul.Leventhal
From: Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Paul Leventhal)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <157_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 22:36:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, M
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: nci@access2.digex.net (Paul Leventhal)
Date: 24 Jul 94 17:36:10 GMT


  
  In this ongoing controversy about whether nuclear power should be 
discussed here, one very basic and simple point is being ignored:

  Whether nuclear energy is clean or preferable or not, it is *not* 
renewable.  It's based on uranium, a finite resource.  Even if we 
reprocess spent nuclear fuel to recover plutonium and use that in breeder 
reactors (giving every nation that does so quick access to nuclear 
weapons in the process), uranium is still a finite resource.

  So if it's not renewable, why discuss it in alt.energy.renewable?

Steven Dolley


From Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:49 EDT 1994
Article: 713 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Cyber.City
From: Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Cyber City)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: electric scooters
Message-ID: <158_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 23:12:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cyber1@io.org (Cyber City)
Date: 24 Jul 94 18:12:52 GMT

Nick Lindert <nlindert@ichips.intel.com> wrote:
>
>I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have details
>on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

Try this company:

Ortho Kinetic, Inc.
P.O. Box 1647
Waukesha, Wisconsin 53187
(800) 824-1068
Fax: (414) 542-4258

Their scooters are sold mostly for disabled people, and cost is probably
over $2000.  Range is ~20 miles.

I have no connection to the company.


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:50 EDT 1994
Article: 714 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <159_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:16:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:16:24 GMT

In article ied@sundog.tiac.net, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
> Marc Visconte (Marc.Visconte@f25.n275.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
> : BP"PC>What ever happened to Mazda's water powered motor?

> : intend on selling it).  If someone ELSE copied it from YOU...
> : (remember the old Breck shampoo commercial?  "And SHE told two people,
> : and they EACH told two people...")

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

You don't believe in cars running on water?!  How about the Russian water
fuelled car???  They've been manufacturing it for years!  It's huge and it
containes political prizoners in the engine compartment.  When you listen to
the engine you can hear: get me some water, get me some water,...


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:51 EDT 1994
Article: 715 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: swimming pool heater
Message-ID: <15a_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:20:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:20:19 GMT

> On (11 Jul 94) Jody Gorran wrote to All...
> 
>  JG> If anyone out there in cyberspace is interested in a true
>  JG> application of renewable energy technology, ie. solar
>  JG> swimming pool heating, I'd be happy to make arrangements to
>  JG> send you a free booklet on this subject.

I am and I cannot find the original posting...






Chris.


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Aug  5 10:12:52 EDT 1994
Article: 716 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <15b_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 07:08:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 25 Jul 94 02:08:04 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9407221629.A981-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:
>
>> A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
>> dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
>> generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
>> to clear out the silt. 
>
>    Lest someone actually believe Dave's statement about Hydro being a 
>non-renewable resource please keep in mind that he's speaking of large 
>scale hydro. Such may be the case (though the engineer I just spoke to 
>thought not but will check on this and get back to me) for the big stuff 
>but small hydro doesn't have this problem (if it did an afternoon with a 
>shovel ought to fix things in most cases). Hydro is one of the best 
>sources of energy in the renewables field.

I agree that almost any backyard power system can be made feasible by
someone who doesn't have to meet any economic goals, such as rasonable
power costs at a reasonable profit, and is willing to invest a lot of
free labor. And I wasn't addressing this narrow case. It has other
problems, such as drought. And, depending on the size of the backyard
dam, that could be an awful lot of shoveling. And of course, a lot
depends on just how much storage the installation needs, i.e., big damv
vs little dam. So yes, I was speaking of larger scales. And I got the
impression the person I responded to was also.

>> The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
>> very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
>> Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
>> downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
>> of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.
>
>    I'm skeptical about our inability to do anything about silting Dave. 
>We dredge habors, make canals etc. and can't deal with some silt? I hope 
>to get feedback next week from the people at Hetch hetchy and Hoover so 
>I'll let you know one way or another what I find out.

There are already major envorinmental problems due to harbor dredging.
The dredging here of the Oakland Estuary for deep-draft ships caused a
major flap, because it was going to be dumped at sea where local
fisherman say there are major fisheries. It's not "some silt". Check
the capacity of, say, Lake Mead, and try to invent an acceptable way to
get the silt out if it filled up. Sure, you could build a major
railroad to carry train loads of silt to the Sea oc Cortez. But that
would be a heavy financial burden.

Canal construction usually relies on finding some local use for the
dirt. In any case, it's not comparable to a silted up dam. I suspect
the problem at Hetch-hetchy isn't the same as at Lake Mead, since
Hetch-Hetchy gets its water from a relatively silt-free mountain
stream. But the Colorado river has always carried a lot of silt.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:53 EDT 1994
Article: 717 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculati
Message-ID: <15f_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 04:04:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Fatih A Rifki
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Locality is also important. For example a site close to a power plant
-> (electric) or tranformer/switchgear may throw the magnetic reading
-> immensely.

Are you SURE?  I've never seen such a local anomally attributable to AC power
systems.

^..^


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:54 EDT 1994
Article: 718 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <163_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Eric Gray
Status: O
X-Status: 

EG>DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
EG>  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is use
EG>  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

EG>Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

EG>Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage ifsealed properly. Gas goes
stale in a few months time.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * We are all prisoners of our own device!


From Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:55 EDT 1994
Article: 719 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-124-1208-0!Bob.Kerstetter
From: Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Kerstetter)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TCA: Renewables in Texas
Message-ID: <168_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: * MacSavvy * Dallas * Home of the POWERPC echo *
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dewey Coffman
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 23 Jul 94  19:32:45 Dewey Coffman wrote to  All:
 DC> Texans make the equipment necessary to power this next boom. We
 DC> make wind turbines near Wichita Falls and towers in El Paso.  We 
 DC> manufacture photovoltaic systems in Houston, Dallas and other
parts
 DC> of the state.  A unique solar dish engine is now being built in
 DC> Abilene.


Can you tell me who makes these things? Especially the Abilene project.
 -> Alice4Mac 2.4.2 E Blue Eval:05Jun94 


From Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:56 EDT 1994
Article: 720 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-382-806-0!Wes.Gainer
From: Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Wes Gainer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: deep cycles
Message-ID: <181_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 03:28:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Just Fishing  *  Georgetown, TX. (512) 930-5092  *
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bill Parker
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think that you will find that a deep cycle battery has larger plates 
that are design to be nearly full discharged before they are recharged.
They can be recharged many times before they do bad.
 
A car battery will not take many full discharged before being 
destroyed.
 
All big batteries forklift, train, boat, etc.
 
Hope that helps.


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:12:56 EDT 1994
Article: 721 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <186_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:41:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


   Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.

   With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
   if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
   plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
   need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
   is a 486/33, if that matters.

   I'm a programmer, but not an EE so any info would be greatly
   appreciated.

   Thanx, Bill
     
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 *  
                                               


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Fri Aug  5 10:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 722 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-234-2-0!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE POWER?
Message-ID: <192_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:05:43 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > of course, i'm no expert ;'>

That's for *damn* sure.


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Fri Aug  5 10:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 723 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Developing countries
Date: 4 Aug 1994 13:09:08 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31qp9k$49m@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone reading this work with renewable energy or rural development or any
related fields in developing countries???

Does anyone know of a newsgroup that deals with rural development in
developing countries???

Thanks
Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
Cape Town




From dwalli@mtu.edu Fri Aug  5 10:13:02 EDT 1994
Article: 724 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 16:36:48 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <31rjh0$5dg@lilbuddy.hu>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lilbuddy.hu.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

ERNESTO GRUNDSETH (erg4@acpub.duke.edu) wrote: [in response to me]
[some stuff deleted] 
: 
: : Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: : gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: : (assumed from water).
: : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: : modules?
: Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
: the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
: per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
: hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
: So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
: meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
: get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
: not too good :(

But not too bad, either. And you don't have the waste products that 
other power sources produce. Did you know that the IC/gas engine in
most cars wastes around 85% of its power in waste heat? Most of
us are driving blast furnaces on wheels. 

: I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
: to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

Hunh?  First: what is "efficient"? 30%? 50%? 90%?  If you are only thinking
of the energy in->work out definition, I think you're missing some things.
We need to think about more than just that definition. If most of our re-
sources were infinite, and if we could auto-magically scrub the atmosphere
clean every week or so, and if good crops would grow each and every year on
bare rock, then we could go on thinking about simple definitions of 
efficiency. In our world, it's too complex for that.

: I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
: panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
: the silicon enviromental???? just wondering
: Ernesto Grundseth
: erg4@acpub.duke.edu
: converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!

I would be interested in knowing the answer to Ernesto's last question
as well. However, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison of
the environmental impact of manufacturing PV cells and, say, the impact
of manufacturing IC engines. (of course, this comparison would ignore the
already well-known impact of manufacturing the fuel that goes into petrol-
fired IC engines.)

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:31 EDT 1994
Article: 587 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 14:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 39
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
IW> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
IW> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
IW> DH> gasoline, etc?

They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
converting to propane <cheaper>

IW>They tend to be a bit more expensive, and the fuel consumption is
IW>going to be 10-20% more than gasoline, from what I've heard. Engines

True, they use more gas.

IW>that run on propane are supposed to last a lot longer, due to the
IW>fuel being cleaner. Better on the air too.

True also, to a point. There is a minor problem with "top end
lubrication" because you don't have the lubricating effect of the
pertro. derived fuel. Top end lubricators can be purchased but I find it
better to "smoke down" an internal combustion engine that may not be run
again for a while. I do this by useing a mechanics oiler <squirt gun>
full of Mystery Oil. It is a red colored oil that will burn in the
combustion chamber but at the same time completely coats all surfaces
includeing the exhaust valves. Just pop open the air cleaner and squirt
it into the intake untill a large cloud of smoke starts billowing out
the exhaust. When started again it will smoke untill it burns all the
oil off. I also put some in the crank case too. About one quart to four
is a good ratio. That tends to help lub the top end also.

IW>No expert here, but questions are welcome, as I do run a
IW>homebuilt DC gen on propane.

I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * You can check out but you can never leave!


From James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:31 EDT 1994
Article: 588 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2604-407-0!James.Nepil
From: James.Nepil@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (James Nepil)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CARS
Message-ID: <a38_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 06:08:59 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * (201)641-8167 14.4
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


    I don't remember who was looking for the information on ELECTRIC CARS but
here is the information you need!
U.S ELECTRIcar
117 Morris St.
Sebastopol, Calif.
          95472
phone numer is (707) 829-4545
   I hope this helps you out ....Will try to get you more information if needed
:)
                            Best to you All !
                                James
* SPITFIRE v3.4


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:32 EDT 1994
Article: 589 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12volts
Message-ID: <a3e_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 12:07:42 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gary Pagac
Status: O
X-Status: 


 GP>  On 07-17-94 Larry D. Yuengel wrote to Tony Weeks...
 LD>
 LD>   I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.

 GP>   Those draw a LOT of juice...like 7 to 13 amps each.  There are readily
 GP>   available 12 volt screw-in incandescent bulbs at all trailer supply
 GP>   places.  These bulbs look exactly like a standard indoor incandescent.

You're right, Gary, headlamps do draw a lot of current but I don't think you'd
use them for indoor illumination.  Larry was thinking of smaller bulbs more on
the order of tail light bulbs or dome light bulbs.  I'm familiar with the screw
in 12 volt bulbs you mention and they work very well.  One caution, though.  Be
careful not to inadvertently screw one of them into a 120 volt socket (they act
just like a flash bulb!).

 GP>   Possibly better yet, look into florescent lighting.  It is widely
 GP>   available for home, 120 volt use and it is super efficient.

There are also 12 volt florescent units available and they are also very
efficient.  As I replace light fixtures in my travel trailer, I'm converting
over to them.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:32 EDT 1994
Article: 590 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-213-830-0!Fred.Nowall
From: Fred.Nowall@f830.n213.z1.fidonet.org (Fred Nowall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <a5e_9407291648@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 16:15:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: InterComm - 702-359-2666 -
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry D. Yuengel
Status: O
X-Status: 

LDY>  I have heard of using auto lights for indoor lighting.
LDY>Popeye

this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
popeye just wandering?
fred


From seiaopps@access3.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:33 EDT 1994
Article: 591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access3.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Date: 29 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31b2ui$jvq@access3.digex.net>
References: <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access3.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <310n34$f2t@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     I'm curious to see if there are any other people out there who might
>be Florida residents generating their own power through solar/AE. As near
>as I can tell, aside from an experiment or two at the local Vo-Tech
>school, no one in this area besides myself is doing any real harvesting of
>Florida Sunshine for power.
>
>Shadowfax
>
>

Keep looking.  You should touch base with with the Florida Solar Energy 
Center (FSEC). They can give you a lot of info on solar potential in Florida.
Also, Florida has several good sized manufacturers of solar hot water 
systems. If you would like me to referyou to them, drop me aline at
seiaopps@digex.com

Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Association
seiaopps@digex.com


From windsor@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:34 EDT 1994
Article: 592 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!access1!windsor
From: windsor@access1.digex.net (Windsor Software Corp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Rayovac Renewal Batteries
Date: 30 Jul 1994 18:06:31 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <31e4r7$sm0@news1.digex.net>
References: <3123co$sfb@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

HBSAW (hbsaw@aol.com) wrote:
: I have been using the batterys for three months now with a Eagle hand-held
: GPS unit. This GPS has a hell of a currect drain. AAA batterys are set to
: 9 volts or 6 batterys. Current drain will pull down the batterys(any
: batterys) to 6.5 volts in 2 hours,at which time the GPS shuts down. I have
: rechargede the Rayovacs' 12 or 15 times and I have had no trouble with
: them holding a full charge. Most of the time I get 2 contuse hours out of
: them. I like them

Does anyone know of an inexpensive retailer of the Rayovac Renewal
batteries?  Many local stores stock them, but generally at list price.

--
Michael C. Smith
Windsor Software Corp, 8377 Cherry Ln, Laurel, MD  20707-4831
windsor@access.digex.net . 301-497-4211 voice . 301-470-0159 fax
Client-server NT, SQL Server, Unix, Sybase applications


From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:34 EDT 1994
Article: 593 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtrHLw.LC@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 16:25:07 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:35 EDT 1994
Article: 594 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 06:47:17 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:36 EDT 1994
Article: 595 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqqwv.IJK@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 06:48:29 GMT
Lines: 1
Status: O
X-Status: 




From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:36 EDT 1994
Article: 596 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctqs0H.Jxz@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 07:12:16 GMT
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

There is a little startup venture in Issaquah WA. that
has some fair size research contracts to build a gas
to electricity generator in the multi-kilowatt size range .

The product is cylindrical, with a central burner tube that
radiates outwards through some low pass optical filters onto
strips of Gallium Antimonide (GaSb) Photovoltaic "solar" cells.

It works. The low bandgap GaSb converts the near Infra-Red
radiation into electric power . 

Envisioned product configurations include cabin heaters that provide
electricity as a byproduct for colder climes and electric power for
hybrid vehicles that burn natural gas and run electric motors .

The car idea takes advantage of the fact that with continuous 
high temperature combustion there are little emissions to worry
about compared to internal combustion engines where the moment
of combustion is short compared to the combustion cycle so the
average temperature is relatively low leaving lots of byproduct
emissions.





From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:37 EDT 1994
Article: 597 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:46:37 GMT
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 

The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
photovoltaic effect.



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:39 EDT 1994
Article: 598 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtroL2.Crx@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:55:48 GMT
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 


Testing response procedure with environment set
to vi .


From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:39 EDT 1994
Article: 599 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <Ctrorv.D8D@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <e49_9407211722@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 18:59:54 GMT
Lines: 2
Status: O
X-Status: 

See new thread 77 this group.



From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:39:40 EDT 1994
Article: 600 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 21:16:49 GMT
References: <mwilson.775321305@ncratl> <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 31
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <Pine.3.87.9407271412.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

|> |    The rivers of the eastern states were "littered" with low head hydro 
|> |plants around the turn of the century with the water being used over and 
|> |over again. Rather elegant. The folks I know who are using small hydro 
|> |generally don't have dams, the one person I do know who uses a dam has 
|> |one a whole foot high.

|His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
|rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
|"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
|either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
|last couple years.

I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

|> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
|> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.

|     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.

The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
either the month before that, or two months before that.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:41 EDT 1994
Article: 601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 30 Jul 1994 23:54:03 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 31
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sat, 30 Jul 1994, Mark O. Wilson wrote:

> |His "dam" is actually a 2X12" board that contains the inlet and trash 
> |rack for the pipe (1.5" PVC) that runs downhill to his small turbine (a 
> |"Little Otto"). His "dam" is held in place by a couple pieces of pipe on 
> |either side of the creek and some rocks. It's worked pretty well for the 
> |last couple years.

> I thought you were implying that he had a head of only 1 foot. From your
> description he has more than that. Do youknow what the total head is?

   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 
know exactly. The system has worked well and the board forming his dam 
generally has water spilling over the top. No great shakes since it's not 
causing bank errosion and he's usually only using a small percentage of 
the creekflow (what is used gets returned to the creek in short order so 
he's only temporarily "borrowing" a few GPM).
 
> |> A recent Popular Science (2 to 3 months ago) had an article about a new
> |> design of low head hydro generator that you might be interested in.
> 
> |     If anyone knows which issue I'd go to the library and dig out the info.
> 
> The latest issue that I have is the one with Jupiter on the cover. It was
> either the month before that, or two months before that.

   Thanks for the info....DCK




From Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:41 EDT 1994
Article: 602 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-353-460-0!Ron.Perepolkin
From: Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org (Ron Perepolkin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 17:23:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Big Edge
Lines: 67
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi all,

   I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
following passage.

   "The neighbors commented on how the usual
dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
>From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

   Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
*light pollution*???

   Every year poorly designed lighting systems waste more than $1
billion dollars of electricity by lighting nothing but airborne dust and
water vapour.  Think about it....why not shield the lighting as some
cities have or use low pressure sodium lamps?  You don't aim you car
headlights into the sky to see the ground.   You can see the glow of
major cities from 150 kilometers.  Ever been unable to sleep because of
a street light or neighbors flood lamp?

   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
Ask a pilot what they think of "well lit" airports.
People have gone to court and won cases against light trespass into
their yard.

   Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

   Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
see what they are stealing from you.
  If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

   The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector
lighting is cheap and will scare the hell out of a burglar trying to
raid your tool shed.  You will save money on your power bill as well,
and when you are outside yourself the light can still be left on as any
other light can.

   How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

   If you would like to get more information on conserving power by
reducing wasted light both on your own power bill and your cities power
bill (TAXES) write:   The International Dark Sky Association at 3545 N.
Stewart Avenue, Tucson, AZ 85716.

'nuff said.    RP
___
 X QMPro 1.02 41-5024 X Explain counter-clockwise to someone with a digital
watch


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:42 EDT 1994
Article: 603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <74a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 23:17:55 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 63
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 21 Jul 94 18:17:55 GMT



On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

>   Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per watt
>   installed.

    I don't know why I'd ever want to say that Stan, Current PV's are 
around 13% efficient and the panel cost is around $6 per watt of capacity 
and concieveably less. New 50 watt panels run about $300 and I can buy 
good used panels for around $3 per watt (I'm going to).

>   The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
>   30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
>   back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die in
>   a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
>   a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
>   exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

   Stan, the cells aren't going to die in 10 years or even 20. They 
degrade somewhat but most of that happens in the first 10 years. I know 
of a well instrumented system containing a 20 year old panel that still 
puts out 88% of it's rated output and hasn't lost any efficency in the 
last ten years. The knowledgeable folks I know estimate a lifespan of 
nearly a century with perhaps %25 degradation at 50 years. There are many 
panels sold now with a 15 year guarantee that they will still put out 90% 
of rated output.

> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar enthusiasts--
> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
> of producing electricity.

    I believe you don't understand why folks use solar panels Stan. This 
is a common misconception. I don't know of few people who have an 
available grid connection who have gone solar. Most folks using PV's are 
off the grid. Here in CA PG&E (the utility) gets $30,000 per mile to run 
power lines (best case situation) for the priviledge of paying them for 
the power you use. This isn't even an option in many parts of the planet 
where it's PV's, Wind, Hydro, fossil fuels or nothing.

     At *current* rates it will take about 16 years to pay off the 
tracked 400watt PV array (about 3.2kwh/day average) we're putting 
together. Of course I don't expect the current per kwh rate to remain the 
same so they payback should be shorter. There's other infrastructure 
involved in this system (batteries, controller, inverter) but it's going 
to be far cheaper than paying PG&E $25,000 for the priviledge of paying  
a monthly bill. Course the sun doesn't shine every day but often when it 
doesn't the wind blows which explains why we're buying a windplant as well.

     Some folks like to make their own power as a hobby, others because 
they want a degree of self sufficency. Me? I just want out of the power 
loop that supports coal, fossil fired and nuclear generation.

> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great deals!

      Speaking of which it's likely the cost of PV's will fall by about 
half in the next 3-4 years and continue to fall....

    DCK


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:42 EDT 1994
Article: 604 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <74b_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Jul 94 22:33:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 21 Jul 94 17:33:15 GMT

In article <30k5ai$1gt@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Dean Weiten <dmw@access.mbnet.mb.ca> wrote:

[...]

>Of course, where I come from (Manitoba, Canada), we are lucky enough to be
>able to generate electricity from hydraulic sources - but we have also found
>this not to be quite non-polluting, as several northern native groups can
>attest.  In my ideal world, all power sources would be non-polluting, 
>and IMHO, they would likely be producing electricity.

A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
to clear out the silt. 

The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:43 EDT 1994
Article: 605 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <768_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 15:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 37
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 > ICE.

 LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

Yea me too !

People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
More people are driving...(increasing population)

So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and 
better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
the same scale as the population increases their driving.

It still comes down to --

1) How the electricity is generated (coal, natural gas, SOLAR ?)
2) It is still easier to clean up (and maintain) 1 smokestack 
   than a 100,000+ car exhausts.  So even with the dirtiest 
   generation source you come out ahead.

This sounds like a push from the auto and gas industries to 
derail the Electric Vehicle from becomming a reality in the 
Eastern United States, by not allowing them to adopt the 
California ZEV requirements under the EPA guidelines.

If there are bills being pushed in Congress, can you provide 
the Bill numbers, and the originators name, so we can contact 
our Congress persons about this issue ?  Thanks.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.    
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:43 EDT 1994
Article: 606 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <769_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 : DK>At 10-15
 : DK>cents worth of electricity per hour, opportunity charging is one
 : DK>of the least expensive way to mitigate pollution in congested areas.
 : DK>Quick-charge stations are intended to be to the EV what the standard
 : DK>service station is to the ICE car.  You pull in, plug in, get a rapid
 : DK>recharge, and go on your way.

 SB> : 10 to 15 cents worth of electricity for a Quick charge???  Again,
 SB> NOT : LIKELY!!  10 to 15 dollars for a quick charge at a restaurant
 SB> seems more : likely.

 SB> Easy enough to estimate:

 SB> Around here 10 cents will get you perhaps 2kWh worth. That's about
 SB> 3HP-hours. And that's at off-peak rates.

 SB> Anyhow, ask yourself how far you could drive something bigger than
 SB> a skateboard with 3HP-hours worth of energy. Really slick small car
 SB> might take as little as 10HP to keep going on freeway at say 50MPH.
 SB> Then your dime will get you approx 15 miles or so before your next
 SB> 'quick stop charge'.
 SB> 

Stan,

The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
on that 10 cent charge.

On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.

Tony

... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:44 EDT 1994
Article: 607 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

 VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
 VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
 VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
 VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
 VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

 VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
 VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
 VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Hello,

It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:44 EDT 1994
Article: 608 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:36:54 GMT
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

[...]

>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.

Actually, Tucson was largely motivated by the fear that one of its
major industries might be destroyed by stray light, especially from
certain spectral lines issued by the mercury vapor lamps previously in
use. Tucson happens to be surrounded by astronomical observatories,
some say the largest cluster of observatories in the world. 

When I was a grad student in the Physics department at UofA, one of my
friends had the rather dreary research assignment of recording night
skyglow spectra from Kitt Peak; Pheonix was beginning to give Kitt Peak
some problems.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:45 EDT 1994
Article: 609 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: SOLAR
Message-ID: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:45:50 GMT
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 

I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:45 EDT 1994
Article: 610 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 03:48:38 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.




From cavery@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:46 EDT 1994
Article: 611 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!cavery
From: cavery@netcom.com (Christopher Avery)
Subject: Re: Flywheel EV Prototyp
Message-ID: <caveryCttBqx.Jpq@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <76a_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:13:45 GMT
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony Cygan (Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

:  -=> Quoting Victor Lance Vescovo to All <=-

:  VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have 
:  VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current 
:  VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be 
:  VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a 
:  VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

:  VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
:  VLV> by  flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
:  VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

: Hello,

: It's my understanding that the flywheel batteries will use
: counter rotating wheels to offset this effect.


: ... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
: ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

I believe the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab (near Baltimore, MD) did 
quite a bit of research in this area but could not come up with a 
practical solution.  An alternative idea is to use ocean thermal energy to 
produce hydorgen, convert that to ammonia for transportion purposes, and 
then use the ammonia as a fuel for cars and electric plants.


From jmccabe@access.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:39:46 EDT 1994
Article: 612 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!not-for-mail
From: jmccabe@access.digex.net (Joe McCabe)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 31 Jul 1994 15:16:07 -0400
Organization: Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
>Ron Perepolkin <Ron.Perepolkin@f460.n353.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>   San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
>>due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental
>>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
>>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
>>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
>

And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

 >


-- 
Joe McCabe, P.E. 
Multimedia Manager
Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
jmccabe@digex.net  (202)289-5365   fax(202)289-5354


From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Aug  6 10:39:47 EDT 1994
Article: 613 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 12:32:53 -0700
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
silicon.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey, Dept. of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering |
| University of California Berkeley                               |
| bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu          Barney + Rush = Barney  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+


From CYBURG@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:48 EDT 1994
Article: 614 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: CYBURG@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: re:SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 22:05:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407311747.tn426288@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Eskimo North asked about  snow load

I've installed several systems in high snow load areas and seen crushed
modules that were not installled properly.  The most important single factor
is array angle.  Since the force on the modules varies as the cosine of the
pitch angle, the steeper the incline, the less perpendicular force will bear
on the module surface.
Another important requirement is that space be provided below the array,
since on a steeply inclined array a great deal of the snow will slide off if
it can.  Other important factors involve the structural strength of the
racking and supports.

Don Loweburg



From Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:39:48 EDT 1994
Article: 615 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-214-86!Dean.Kuusela
From: Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 19:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Barbary Coast
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all!

I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Thanks.

Catcha later,
Dean 


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:49 EDT 1994
Article: 616 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <c6d_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 49
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Stan Bischof to All <=-

 SB> From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 SB> Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 SB> Let's say that solar cells are 100% efficient yet cost $1000 per
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
 SB> watt installed.
     ^^^^
 Right now you can get Solar power at $2-5.00 per watt with the
 panels only 15% effecient.  What makes you think this would 
 change to such a drastic amount (20,000 % more !).

 SB> On a good day you might get me to pay 10 cents per kilowatt hour-
 SB> which is based upon what I can already get electricity for. Now you
 SB> install for $1000 a single one watt cell and start pumping juice out
 SB> to me. 
 SB> Well, every thousand hours of daylight I'll send you a dime. Good
 SB> deal right- after all the sun is free?

 SB> The astute observer may notice that I'll be sending something like
 SB> 30 cents per year so in about 3000 years you might be able to pay
 SB> back your initial investment. (Though of course the cells will die
 SB> in a decade or so anyhow- but that's another story.) (And of course
 SB> a .003 % return on your kilobuck investment might not be considered
 SB> exactly stellar- but that's yet another story.)

 SB> Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 SB> enthusiasts-- 
 SB> the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to the cost
 SB> of producing electricity.
 
 Using such illogical numbers that you do makes no sense.  If it 
 would cost such a drastic amount to get 100% effeciency no one
 would bother doing it.  You would just use more of the "cheap"
 modules to accomplish your goal.  (and many people already do it).

 SB> Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just that
 SB> it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great
 SB> deals! 
 SB> --
 SB> Stan Bischof
 SB> Hewlett Packard Sonoma County



... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:49 EDT 1994
Article: 617 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV's 3 of 4
Message-ID: <c6e_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 15:21:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: James W Dille
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting James W Dille to All <=-

 JWD> From: jwd@cec1.wustl.edu (James W Dille)
 JWD> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:21:49 GMT

 JWD> The pack exchange idea sounds workable, but if, as I have heard, it
 JWD> will $4,000 per year to keep oneself in batteries (on the average),
 JWD> with pack exchange that cost will still have to be borne by someone. If
 JWD> you exchange packs 100 times a year, wouldn't the fee have to be at
 JWD> least $40 a shot? And if an exchange will take you another 100 miles,
 JWD> it's pretty expensive and slow going.

I've never heard these numbers, can you provide me with 
information on where you heard it from ???

If true then I don't think it would be a plausible solution
and would not happen as the market would not accept it, and 
some other way of fast charging would come out.  

The big hurdle for battery pack exchange as I see it, is 
conformity.  Every maker of Electric Cars would have to agree 
on a standard and then keep it, pretty much forever, so it's
not likely to happen soon.

Tony


... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:39:50 EDT 1994
Article: 618 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: electric scooters
Message-ID: <c6f_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Nick Lindert
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Nick Lindert to All <=-

 NL> From: nlindert@ichips.intel.com (Nick Lindert)
 NL> Date: 20 Jul 94 22:42:09 GMT

 NL> I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have
 NL> details on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

 NL> -- 
 NL> Nick Lindert
 NL> Mailstop: JF1-19
 NL> Home: (503)614-0731
 NL> Work: (503)696-9074

Nick, there are a few people selling these things.

You might try calling the following numbers as a place to 
start.

-- Doran Motor Co. at (702)359-7356
-- Green Motor Works at (818)766-3800

Tony

... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:51 EDT 1994
Article: 619 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:59:05 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 24
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407311614.A11812-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
> a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
> One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
> There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
> have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
> Do they need extra support ? 
> 
> I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
> sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?

     I have some friends with a solar powered repeater at 7000 feet in 
the mountains of Northern CA. The PV's sit on a 30 foot pole next to the 
block repeater shack. My buddy has some pics of the array which looks 
like the array is sitting about 10 feet in the air surrounded by snow 
with no trace of the shack. The panels are now two years old and are 
holding up just fine. They actually make more power per unit time during 
the winter because they're cold.
   DCK
 



From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:51 EDT 1994
Article: 620 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Date: 1 Aug 1994 00:10:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 21
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9407311654.A11812-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 25 Jul 1994, Dean Kuusela wrote:

> Hello all!
> 
> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

    Maybe Don Lowenburg will pitch in his $.02 here. Anyway, If you can 
consider a diesel if you plan to use it much. If a diesel isn't 
acceptable and you use gasoline consumption will likely be about double. 
To give you an idea a Coleman Maxxa 5000w unit burns 1 gallon in 1.2 
hours at 50% load, a Honda EG5000 will run 2.6 hrs on 1.9 gal fuel at %50 
load and a 2500w Honda can run 3 hrs at half load on 1 gallon. My friend 
claims 4 hours per gallon at 2500w output with his 6kW China Diesel genset.
     DCK
P.S.- Were I going to buy a gas genset I think I'd look for a 1800 rpm Onan.




From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:52 EDT 1994
Article: 621 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu286.94@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:45:42 GMT
Lines: 27
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dean Kuusela (Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Hello all!

: I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
: boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
: hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

If you assume 80% efficiency for the generator and drive system, then you 
need 5000/.85 = 5880 Watts input to run it.

5880 W * (1 hp/746W) = 7.9 hp

Light duty generator engines consume about .55 to .6 lb of fuel per 
horsepower hour and gas weighs about 6.8 lb/gallon so your fuel 
consumption will be about:
(7.9 hp)*(.6lb/hphr)*(1/6.8 lb/gal) = .7 gal/hr

Can't help you with the brand, but if you're going to use it for several 
thousand hours get one with a good engine.  The cheapos wear out in one 
to two thousand hours.  Also, if you are really going to be putting out 
5000 watts for long periods of time, get a bigger generator.  5000 Watts 
for 8 hours a day is 1200 kWhr a month which is more than twice the power 
consumed by the average urban house.  Are you setting up a machine shop 
in the woods or something?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:53 EDT 1994
Article: 622 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:49:37 GMT
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

Joe McCabe (jmccabe@access.digex.net) wrote:

: >>groups, they accepted the change in lighting to low pressure sodium and
: >>felt good about it.  Why be blinded from the overall glow of the
: >>street lighting when it can just be shielded to illuminate the ground.
: >

: And If i'm not mistaken the City of San Diego is looking at removing the 
: sodium lights because of security; it seems that the police can not see 
: in this light and positive identification is not held up in court.

What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:55 EDT 1994
Article: 623 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Message-ID: <CtsEKx.FL7@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <CtnMst.290@txnews.amd.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 04:17:19 GMT
Lines: 9
Status: O
X-Status: 

ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 

It was a very impressive site . 

They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
They array field was bought by some outfit that has
been stripping it down and selling the panels .


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:56 EDT 1994
Article: 624 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: IEEE article
Date: 1 Aug 1994 07:50:23 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 32
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010025.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CtsEKx.FL7@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> ARCO Solar built and maintained a 6 MegaWatt PV array 
> field in California in the '80s . It worked . I think 
> they actual cost was about $.50 / peak watt . 
> 
> It was a very impressive site . 
> 
> They wound up selling out to Seimens a few years ago. 
> They array field was bought by some outfit that has
> been stripping it down and selling the panels .

     Yes, I believe this was called the Carrizo Plains Demonstration Site 
and I thought (off the top of my head) that is was 70MW...could easily be 
wrong on the latter. This is the source for most of the "Quadlams" you 
see advertised. Carizzo Solar Corp. (1-800.776.6718) is the outfit 
selling off the panels (mainly thru dealers). There must be a mountain of 
them as they've been selling 'em off for some time. Their ad states "The 
Cheapest Photovoltaics in the World".
      A lot of the panels are pretty scuzzy...but still work. The bronze 
unframed "Quadlams" were used with reflectors to boost output and while 
they look pretty funky a 4 panel set puts out around 90w and can be had 
for about $200....Some dealers are selling the better framed panels that 
weren't cooked with reflectors...a three panel framed set putting out 
about 100w runs about $350...sometimes less. Some folks at SEER had the 
100w sets for $300....they looked pretty good and are likely what I'll be 
buying soon.
      I kinda envision folks mining the desert for PV's :-).
            DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:57 EDT 1994
Article: 625 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:08:02 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 323
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010021.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:58 EDT 1994
Article: 626 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Phantom Power Suckers
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:23:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 231
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010148.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:58 EDT 1994
Article: 627 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hackleman on EV's
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:24:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 110
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010134.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Status: O
X-Status: 
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From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:39:59 EDT 1994
Article: 628 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: OOPS, 37 not 50...
Date: 1 Aug 1994 08:28:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408010145.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


    Before someone figures it out let me say that the Hackleman article 
on EV's if from Home Power mag #37, not 50....it's from page 50 of that 
issue. 
     DCK

P.S. - Hope you folks are enjoying these articles....




From seiaopps@access1.digex.net Sat Aug  6 10:40:00 EDT 1994
Article: 629 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: seiaopps@access1.digex.net (Solar Energy Industries Assoc.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: U.S Solar Energy Manufactueres
Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:19:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31j3p5$pks@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

I noticed several inquiries here concerning locating manufacurers of 
solar energy technologies.

The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology maintains a 
database of our membership directory.

This database can be access via world wide web at http://solstice.crest.org.

The database allows you to search vendors by technology and should soon 
be available via gopher and ftp.  




"Solar energy--do the bright thing"


Dana Mellecker
Solar Energy Industries Assosciation
seiaopps@digex.com
(202) 383-2600


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:00 EDT 1994
Article: 630 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Message-ID: <845_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding why the switch contacts not rated for DC tend to burn up, it gets all
involved with calculus and such.  However, there is an
easy way to visualize it.  The electrons in DC flow continuously, and
when the switch tries to break the flow, an arc results and burns up
the contacts.  On ac, the flow of electrons goes to zero twice every
cycle.  When you open the switch, before a significant arc can be established,
the flow of electrons goes to zero.  In effect, in DC the switch being opened
stops the current flow, and in ac the switch
keeps the flow of current from starting up again.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:01 EDT 1994
Article: 631 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <846_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 

* In a message originally to All, Stan Bischof said:
 > From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
 > Date: 20 Jul 94 19:10:57 GMT

 > don walli (dwalli@mtu.edu) wrote:
 > : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the
 > electrolysis
 > : modules? 
 > : Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells,
 > Basically you have fallen into a very common trap for solar
 > enthusiasts--

 > the 'fuel' may be free, but that becomes almost irrelevant to
 > the cost
 > of producing electricity.

You are correct, but in the past utility companies were subsidized to connect
to people "off the main roads".  THis is gradually being
phased out.  Power companies generally charge for hook-up if you are over 200
feet from existing lines, plus a charge per foot.  Charges per foot are 
(examples that I know of) between $3.50 and $10 per foot.  If you are 1200 feet
from the nearest power line, you can expect to pay between $3,500 and $10,000
for the prividge of paying a monthly bill.  You can buy a pretty nice AE system
for those dollars.  In this case, the cost of maintenance is the only factor,
not the original cost of the system.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:02 EDT 1994
Article: 632 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?
Message-ID: <84e_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 08:12:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 


 EH> Well, let's put it this way.  My shop air is from a
 EH> 1950 Cadillac compressor
 EH> driven by a 3/4 horse three phase motor, which was
 EH> built in 1966.  In all those
 EH> years, most of the time left ON 24 hours a day, (NO
 EH> leaks) I have yet to add

DK>      Hi Elvis....I appreciate your interesting post and
DK> the spirit in which you're sharing information but we are
DK> getting a wee bit off the conference topic here....Thanks
DK> for your cooperation.....DCK

now let's not go over board here. I think that quite often a lot of good 
conversation and ideas get quashed because they are "off topic",
not always necissarily in this echo mind you, but perfectly valid and 
useful info get shut down far too often (at all is too often:)
 Now granted i don't know the full story but Elvis' post and the one he was
responding to can have alot to do with the subjects in this echo since the 
eficient working of the compressor (or any machine) is directly related to 
the amout of energy it needs to run, wich is important not only in the general 
NEED to not be wasteful, but is much more immediate for someone who is trying
to run the thing off there home PV cells or gerbil wheel generator. . .right?
 thanks
  zachariahCzeck
   jason organist

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:02 EDT 1994
Article: 633 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Allen.J_.Filson
From: Allen.J_.Filson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Allen J. Filson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <85b_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 00:15:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: afilson@nyx.cs.du.edu (Allen J. Filson)
Date: 22 Jul 94 19:15:44 GMT

Greetings,

Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the 
"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it 
great enough to worry about?

Possibly someone could direct me to a source for this kind of information 
relative to the design of energy efficient housing and alternate energy 
systems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Allen


From Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:03 EDT 1994
Article: 634 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Timothy.Wilson.x4040
From: Timothy.Wilson.x4040@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Human Powered Vehicles
Message-ID: <85c_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:24:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:StorageTek
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: timothyw@stortek.com (Timothy Wilson x4040)
Date: 22 Jul 94 22:24:48 GMT

There is a mailing list that is specifically for HPVs.  To subscribe, mail 
a message to Majordomo@zippy.sonoma.edu.  Do not put anything on the subject 
line.  In the body of the message place this line:

   subscribe hpv <your email address>

I hope this helps

Tim


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:04 EDT 1994
Article: 635 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 04:17:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

     Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
water powered but related to such.....
    DCK


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:04 EDT 1994
Article: 636 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <85f_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 18:14:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: John Thompson
Status: O
X-Status: 

JT> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
JT> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
JT> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
JT> DH> gasoline, etc?

JT>    I was just out at a job today, and what do I see but a
JT>    Colman generator 12hp (The green ones) hooked up to
JT>    a propane tank from a gas grill.
JT>    The carburator looked like it was the stock unit with
JT>    very little modification.

Uhoh, the secrets out of the bag. I have seen MANY systems set up as
dual fuel generators that uses the original, unmodified, stock carb.
They can still shut off the propane and fill it with gas and fire it up.
I have seen 2 typs of set-ups. The first uses a plug on the bottom of
the carb <on MOST small engines> in the fuel bowl <where the float is>.
Just let the fuel run out, put a fitting in the hole <most are pipe
thread but be VERY careful to get the same thread and don't cross thread
the hole, a fuel bowl for one of these carbs can be more than an entire
rebuilt carb for a 357> in the bottom of the carb and hook up a line. If
you use a demand type regulator on the propane system <yes, very similar
to scuba regulators> you are ready to roll. You may have to choke it
harder than starting on gasoline, if the regulator has a button that
causes the reg. to force a shot of gas into the hose this works better
than the choke lever. If the fitting has a shut off in the bottom of the
carb then you can just shut off the propane and fill it with gas. The
other system uses a demand type reg. and just a hose to the air horn
<the piece of tubeing or cast metal between the throat of the carb and
air cleaner> or even into the filtered side of the air filter and the
"draw" of the engine will suck propane into the engine. In both cases
the throtle still works the same.

We use to have an engine that almost never was run other than once every
month or two to keep it in operating condition. Instead of filling the
tank we drained it and left it empty. That way we didn't have to wory
about the fuel going stale. We rolled our accetalene <sp?> torch out
ther, stuck the tip in the throat of the carb, turned on the accet. and
fired the engine up. We could vary the fuel flow with the knob on the
torch. We would run it for a while to bring the engine up to temperature
and then would "smoke it down" with mystery oil.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:05 EDT 1994
Article: 637 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <877_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 73
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: RON PEREPOLKIN
Status: O
X-Status: 

RP>    San Diego and Tucson residents became aware of the wasteful lighting
  > due to an advertising campaign by city officials and environmental


I agree w/you about light pollution, but you are wrong on the following
part:

RP>    Most homeowners feel they must bathe their yard in light to keep
  > burglars at bay.....*DEAD WRONG*   Think about it....

RP>    Most burglars prefer a yard with one or two lights, the shadows
  > created gives them a place to hide.  If you hear a noise outside and
  > investigate they know your eyes are not as dark adapted as theirs and
  > that you will not see them lurking in the shadows.  It's also great to
  > see what they are stealing from you.
  >   If however the yard is dark the burglar and you are both on the same
  > level as far as seeing goes and what burglar wants to use a flashlight
  > to see what he is stealing if he is in your yard?

If it's dark in both inside and outside, your eyes no matter how adapted
to the dark will not see something outside unless there is light to
reflect off of whatever is out there.

If it's dark outside and lit inside, you see NOTHING outside, only your
reflection  in the window.

If it's light outside and lit inside, you are at a standoff, he can see
you, you can see him.

NO, the BEST situation is dark inside, and well lit outside.

I agree you dont have to put a dozen flood lights out there, and
whatever you do put up should be shielded to light your yard, not the
sky or your neighbors, but you need the light out there...


And THEN you go on about:

RP>    The best bet other than a yappy dog is to keep a dark yard and
  > install motion detector lighting.  Why spent your $$$ on *security*
  > lighting that burns all night and does not work???   Motion detector

I can't believe you'd do this all in the same msg. You bitch about light
pollution, and then just substitue it for noise pollution. I'll tell you
what, I can sleep all night long with my neighbors lights shining into
my bedroom, (and they do) but when one of the 4 neigbors dogs start
barking, there is nothing I can do to get to sleep. With the light, I
draw my drapes or simply roll over, I can't do anything about the "yappy
dog" you seem to like.

Your points about light pollution are valid, and I agree. If you chck
out the origin you'll see I'm in Tucson and support the light ordaninces
100% and even argue with my neighbors about their lights.

But your points about security are wrong, and your substitution for one
form of pollution for another is mis-guided, at best, and hypocritical
at worst.


RP>    How many of you have ever seen the river of light and billions of
  > stars in the milky way?   The sky at night is very beautiful and
  > unfortunately many city dwellers will never see it. The milky way will
  > actually cast shadows on earth if the location is dark enough.

Even in Tucson w/all our light ordainces, I still have to leave the city
to see the  milky way, something I do almost every single sat or friday
night. :)


eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Pointing out errors in ones beliefs aka Porcupine Bathing


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:06 EDT 1994
Article: 638 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV'S 3 OF 4
Message-ID: <878_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 18:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: TONY CYGAN
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC> The idea behind "opportunity charging" at reasturants, grocery
  > stores, etc, is to allow you to extend the effective range of
  > your Electric Vehicle, not allow you to travel great distances
  > on that 10 cent charge.

TC> On the other hand a "quick charge" is designed to refill your
  > batteries when they are nearly empty, so on a trip from one
  > town to another you will not run out of "fuel"...

TC> Opportunity charging will probably not cost more than normal
  > rates, but quick charging will probably be reasonably related
  > to how gas stations charge for gasoline (market driven).

TC> I doubt very much that it would cost $10-15 dollars for this
  > quick charge, but more likely $2-3 dollars for 15 Kilowatts of
  > power.  This would give the station owner a healthy profit
  > margin of almost twice the going rate for that power.


Or even better yet if the station or grociery store puts up a
photo-voltaic system on the roof to make his one electricy for his
"customers" use!

I for one am ready! :)

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Intelligence is limited only by the openess of the mind.


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:06 EDT 1994
Article: 639 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <879_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 20:15:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DEAN KUUSELA
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK> Hello all!

DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used p
  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * To a little fish, the waters are always deep.


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:07 EDT 1994
Article: 640 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:55:19 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

>The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
>photovoltaic effect.

Wow.  I wonder how efficient it is, and if they would work in the hot sun.
Maybe you could line your oven with panels in order to recover some energy.

Tony dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:07 EDT 1994
Article: 641 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:27:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31jia9$qqh@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) writes:

"I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels . 
There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
Do they need extra support ? 
I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?"

     I have 8 Solarex MSX-30 panels, a little smaller than the ones you
mention and have seen them take quite a pounding during some of our recent
summer storms. I know this isn't quite the same as snow-loading, but that
one such storm removed several of my fence panels from behind the array
(an idea of it's strengeth).
     Another thought would be Duravolt panels - they're really rugged,
backed with stainless steel and fronted with a Tefcell (sp?) coating which
water and debris just slide off of. I have no doubt they could take
whatever kind of snow loading you could envision as worst-case, and then
some.

Shadowfax




From baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:08 EDT 1994
Article: 642 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ennews!enuxsa.eas.asu.edu!baravind
From: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind)
Subject: NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid, Lithium cells comparison
Message-ID: <Ctv7qx.DC1@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Sender: news@ennews.eas.asu.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:42:33 GMT
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,
Can anyone give me some leads as to where to find a comparison of the four leading rechargeable battery technologies NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid and Lithium with respect to parameters such aas charge time, discharge time, memory effects, peak power, capacity at various current levels, internal impedance, size etc.

If there is a FAQ about this please let me know.

This info is needed for a research project I am doing in school and I need the info in a couple of days.

Please post or mail to baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu

Thanks
Bhaskar


From adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:09 EDT 1994
Article: 643 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail
From: adziepak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Dziepak)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, appliances
Date: 1 Aug 1994 12:42:04 -0600
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31jfls$rna@nyx.cs.du.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx.cs.du.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC 
house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC 
house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce
EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?

I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiring
for my home.

Post, or email:  Tony Dziepak  <Dziepak@acc.fau.edu>



From mercury@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:09 EDT 1994
Article: 644 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl4.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: mercury@crl.com (Kenneth Greenlaw)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Tesla newsgroup?
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:26:42 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [login: guest]
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <31jsr2$o4r@crl4.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl4.crl.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm looking for a newsgroup relevant to the work of Nicola Tesla.  Anyone 
know of such a place?

Regards,

	Ken



From belanos@acs.bu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:10 EDT 1994
Article: 645 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!world!news.bu.edu!Jacob.Sutton
From: belanos@acs.bu.edu (Jacob Sutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jobs in windpower?
Date: 2 Aug 1994 01:45:19 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 10
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[4058]
Message-ID: <31k8ff$l4k@news.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-83-28.bu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@news.bu.edu.
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

Are there any?
I'm going to be graduating with my engineering bachelors next May and
have a strong interest in windpower. 
I was wondering what the job market was like and where windpower firms
are located.
any info would be much appreciated.

Jacob Sutton
email: belanos@acs.bu.edu
 


From drais@crash.cts.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:11 EDT 1994
Article: 646 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!crash!jhd.cts.com!drais
From: drais@crash.cts.com (John H. Drais)
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Organization: The Paracelsian Order
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 15:52:42 GMT
Message-ID: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]
References: <Pine.3.87.9407271443.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com> <31921i$qo6@search01.news.aol.com>
Keywords: waterbed cover
Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem)
Nntp-Posting-Host: jhd.cts.com
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

> ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
>mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

>Shadowfax

Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may be too 
hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or over easy?)

By the way, we have a 264 acre retreat in sunny Southern CA that we are just 
now looking to convert and switch off the grid. This is a great place to visit 
for anyone wishing to help us design a practical system affordable by a poor 
monastery. If anyone responds I will provide particulars.



John H Drais
The Paracelsian Order
18372 Highway 94
Dulzura CA 91917-1216 USA


From Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:12 EDT 1994
Article: 647 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-352-111-0!Jim.Richardson
From: Jim.Richardson@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Richardson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
Message-ID: <ecb_9408012147@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 23:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor Lance Vescovo
Status: O
X-Status: 

VLV> From: vescovo@netcom.com (Victor Lance Vescovo)
VLV> Date: 15 Jul 94 04:09:22 GMT

VLV> Ivo Roper (ivo@remarque.berkeley.edu) wrote:
VLV> : Howdy all,


VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have
VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current
VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be
VLV> : completed sometime next year.  The article goes on to mention a
VLV> : few technical details which I'll post if people are interested.

VLV> Curious, how in the world do they get by the gyroscope problem created
VLV> by
VLV> flywheel-driven vehicles?  From what I've heard, flywheel-cars make
VLV> turning corners or going uphill quite difficult. . .

Two solutions, 1, use two contra-rotating flywheels, one located within
the other, the precession can be balanced out in this manner. Or 2)
couple the flywheel inductively, with electromagnets, and allow the
flywheel to precess all it wants on magnetic bearings. Both solutions
are workable, both are used in other applications.

                Jim Ricardson
        Patriot, pagan and proud of it.


From etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:13 EDT 1994
Article: 648 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas40c45!etxgfn
From: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se (Gunnar Forsgren)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Followup-To: sci.energy
Date: 2 Aug 1994 10:02:26 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31l5ji$gs0@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
Reply-To: etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas40c45.eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-User: etxgfn
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:23661 alt.energy.renewable:648
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
for producing energy for a whole household.

There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.

Can some of you provide me with information regarding

- U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
  small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.

- Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 

- Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.


I will then pass this info on to my brother.

Thanks,

---
Gunnar Forsgren             <etxgfn@eua.ericsson.se>
Ericsson Telecom, Sweden    "Personal interests"





From sflack@moose.uvm.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:14 EDT 1994
Article: 649 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 2 Aug 1994 12:03:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.

			Sarah Flack


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:14 EDT 1994
Article: 650 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SMALL WATERPOWER PLANTS: info wanted
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:48:22 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 35
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408020729.A28168-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <31l5ji$gs0@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 2 Aug 1994, Gunnar Forsgren wrote:

> I have a brother who is interested in setting up a business
> in Sweden selling small water powered electric plants for
> those households/farms who have a convenient stream of water running nearby.
> Everything from equipment for battery charging up to waterpowered equipment
> for producing energy for a whole household.
> 
> There seems to be some manufacturers of such equipment in the U.S.
> Can some of you provide me with information regarding
> 
> - U.S Manufacturers/retailers of
>   small waterpowered electric generators and associated equipment.
> - Magazines featuring articles on small scale waterpower applications. 
> - Associations/clubs of waterpower enthusiasts.

  I would reccomend your brother speak with Don Harris a manufacturer of 
small hydro power plants (408.425.7652) about this and also Bob-O Schultz 
at Electron Connection (916.475.3401). I'm not aware of any clubs per say.

  The Best body of information on small hydro has probably been in Home 
Power magazine. Over the years they've run many articles on this and the 
related types of stuff you mention (inverters, batteries, controls, 
etc.). International surface subscriptions run $20 or $44US via airmail 
to Europe. If your brother is sincerely interested in home-scale power 
generation it would be a great investment. The article text and graphics 
from the first 37 issues is on the SOLAR-1 CDROM (ISO9660 format) which 
is priced at $32 including shipping via air to Europe (Issue 42 is just 
now reaching subscribers). You can reach Home Power Magazine at 
916.475.3179 or via mail at PO. Box 520, Ashland Oregon 97520 (they also 
sell the CD).




From ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:15 EDT 1994
Article: 651 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!ericom!olga!ehsbpe
From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: olga.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
the grid". 
There are some people in Sweden that has been found
"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
been crossing their grounds.
The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
electric hazards etc.

Borje Persson 


From gbalfanz@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:16 EDT 1994
Article: 652 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!gbalfanz
From: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz)
Subject: Best charge controller?
Message-ID: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 14:47:26 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.

I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.

Thanks, Greg


                      \|/
            /\        -O-         
           /  \       /|\         
          /    \   /\             
         /      \ /  \  Deep in the heart of Texas hill country
        /  /\    /    \        /\    /\  /\      /\            /\/\/\  /\
       /  /  \  /      \      /  \/\/  \/  \  /\/  \/\  /\  /\/ / /  \/  \  
      /  /    \/ /\     \    /    \ \  /    \/ /   /  \/  \/  \  /    \   \
     /  /      \/  \/\   \  /      \    /   /    \
  __/__/_______/___/__\___\__________________________________________________



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:16 EDT 1994
Article: 653 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 2 Aug 1994 15:05:21 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31lnbh$fht@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 20109@ericsson.se, ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
> I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
> energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
> the grid". 
> There are some people in Sweden that has been found
> "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
> been crossing their grounds.
I have been playing with fluorecent light under a big power line for a lot of
years ago. We had a small cabin that was "powered" by induction from the HV-line.
We used an old fence wire to collect the power.
> The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
> between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
> The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
> has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
> By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
> have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
> Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
> can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
> anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
> understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
> magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
> electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
> electric hazards etc.
> 
> Borje Persson 
It's still a crime in Sweden, and I think they regulary "ping" the 
lines for checking the impedance of the net. With the technologi of today it's
easy to detect if something has been changed and also the position of the change.
So I think you must have a better lawyer than the power company..............
/oo
The opinion above is my own etc.







From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:17 EDT 1994
Article: 654 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching power through induction
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:44:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
use.
     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.


Shadowfax




From bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:18 EDT 1994
Article: 655 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!brian
From: bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Date: 2 Aug 1994 17:29:44 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
Lines: 11
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[2601]
Message-ID: <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us> 
 <hatunenCtsFHJ.Hvz@netcom.com> <31gt9n$9c1@access2.digex.net>  
 <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chem_sth-mac3.sdsu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@4.224.191.130.in-addr.arpa.
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
> -- 

It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
S.D. Brian


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:19 EDT 1994
Article: 656 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Space Blanket
Date: 2 Aug 1994 14:39:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31m3sd$iqo@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <drais.4.2E3D1A48@crash.cts.com>, drais@crash.cts.com (John H.
Drais) writes:

"Try a space blanket over the waterbed with reflective side up. This may
be too hot when you have your girlfriend over. (Is that sunny side up or
over easy?)"

     I had thought of this but, if I remember correctly, they make a lot
of crinkling noise when you move them around. The throw-blankets are soft
and quiet, and cost less than $10 at Target. The girlfriend is very
thermally efficient with a sunny disposition, but never over easy ("hey -
you're on my side again! <pokepoke>) <G>.

Shadowfax




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:20 EDT 1994
Article: 657 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775843917@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:11:57 GMT
References: <mwilson.775603009@ncratl> <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <Pine.3.87.9407301646.A12809-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

|   I believe the head for his system is about 120 feet or so....don't 

I don't know too many people who have a 120 foot drop across their property.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:20 EDT 1994
Article: 658 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:14:03 GMT
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:

|In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
|| I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
|| mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
|| their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.

|More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
|Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
|energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
|silicon.

The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:21 EDT 1994
Article: 659 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCtx9I8.E01@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:15:44 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>,
Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS <ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.

I believe they would have to be parallel to the poser lines.

>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.

Generating voltage is trivial. The problem is what happens when you add
a load to the line. What kind of current can you draw, and what happens
to the voltage when you draw the current. If attaching a 220 volt lamp
causes the voltage at the lamp to sag to 10 volts, it becomes kind of
useless.

>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

That actually is possible, but not with the simple induction pickup
described above. I would think that a workable secondary (in effect you
are creating a transformer) would be quite noticable to the
authorities, and might involve some trespass.

>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

That sounds like an urban legend.



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:21 EDT 1994
Article: 660 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Power consumtion of Peltier junction coolers
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:01:38
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170138@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <793_9407161839@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <3145uq$dgo@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:24:10 -0400
Status: O
X-Status: 

datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:
   (Ken Finney) writes:
   >Has anyone out there measured the current at 12 V required to run one
   >of those coolers that use Peltier junctions to stay cold?  I understand
   >they
   >aren't very efficient and take quite a lot of current, but how much is "a
   >lot"?

   I believe that the average 36 quart size cooler using Peltier junctions
   uses 4.5amps at 12vdc with an average of 2.5 amps per hour if the cooler
				 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^		
   is thermostatically controlled.

I think you mean an "average of 2.5 amps," (or even "2.5 amp-hours per hour.")
but not "amps per hour"
Amps are a unit of current, Coulombs per second 
(i.e. 6 times 10^18th  electrons per second) 
So you want the average current, (not the average current per hour, 
which doesn't really make sense unless your talking about how the
current changes (which you are not).

A small point but I think it is important to be precise on these 
technicall matters.



Useing your numbers the cooler would use 54 Watts peek, and 30 Watts
average, which does seem kind of high to me (but not wrong.)
I would think what is inside and how often it is used  is also a big 
factor in effecientcy.  I remembering from years ago but I think
Peltier junctions are about 4% effecient. The Navy invested large
sums of money in the early 60s trying to make them more effecient
and basicly ran out of thing to try.  If they were very effeicent
they would be used instead of solar cells since they work both ways--
electricity to heat and heat to electricity. (this last sentence
is a vast over simplification so don't flame me for it).

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:22 EDT 1994
Article: 661 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:06:24
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <dmackieCsMu39.BLz@netcom.com> <3146oq$dnh@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: datnoid@aol.com's message of 26 Jul 1994 19:38:01 -0400
Status: O
X-Status: 

datnoid@aol.com (Datnoid) writes:

   {....]
   My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
   solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
   battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Thats 550 watt hours per day.
A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu.


From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:23 EDT 1994
Article: 662 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRIC BICYCLE
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:41:17
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2174117@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <191_9407261707@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org's message of 24 Jul 94 19:37:00 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton) writes:
   The main draw back is that DC is a little different in that running
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      
   wires all over a large house could add enough resistance that the end
   voltage drop might be a problem. Also, switching might prove to be a
   slight problem. If you use 12 volt lights and install normal switches in
   the wall to turn them on and off the contacts in the switches may <in
   the future> give you a problem. One of the tecnical people on this echo
   could probably explain why. I have heard that placeing a capacitor
   accross the switch can help cure the problem.

The difference is not DC vs AC it is 12volt vs 120 volt.  
Using lower voltage requires more current for the same power.
Power (watts) = Current (amps) times Voltage (volts).
Since voltage losses to resistance is proportional to current 
you get more of a voltage drop with less current. (this can 
be compensated for by using lower resistance wires.)  You
can also measure the resistance of the wires using an ohm
meter.  Since Voltage = Current times resistance, you can 
tell howmuch voltage you will lose.  The best and safest 
way to do this is to get a length of the identical wire you are
useing and see what the resistance is. Then you could calculate
how much voltage drop you had for a given current and length of
wire.

As for swithes wearing out: The problem is from arcing when the
switch is turned on and off.  This has to do with the inductance 
of the whole circuit. Inductance causes the voltage to change
inorder to try to maintain the current that is flowing. It seems
that there would be two effects: the higher current causing of 12V
systems, but since the voltage is lower there would be less 
tendency to arc (i.e. break down the air between the contacts, 
which means current will flow through the air until the gap 
got bigger).  Off hand I don't know which is worse but if
the 120V swithces have problems with 12V systems then the higher
current must be the dominate effect, or the inductance of 12V systems
is higher.


This is just off the top of my head...

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu






From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:24 EDT 1994
Article: 663 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: WATTS are POWER !
Date: 2 Aug 94 17:21:13
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2172113@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <CtKMxK.22E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 27 Jul 1994 05:57:44 -0000
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9407262209.A15236-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Stan Bischof wrote:

   > Please folks:
   > 
   >  a WATT is a measurement of POWER not ENERGY
   > 
   > "my xyz gismo generated 250 watts par day" is a totally meaningless statement!
   > 
   > If you want ENERGY you can use all sorts of units, such as WATT-HOURS.

	Hi Stan, 
	    I agree with you about the watt-hours bit but over the years 
   when I've used that expression I get a bunch of "huh?'s" so I pretty much 
   gave up and go with the flow. It's a valid technical point but most folks 
   understand what is meant on some level. Feel free to use the right 
   expression but don't feel too bad that the majority is likely to keep on 
   saying "watts" instead.
	    What's the proper abreviation for the term?
		 DCK

Sorry I didn't read this before correcting you again.
But it makes a big difference if people use the wrong units.
Everyone who gets their power from the grid gets billed for 
kilowatt-hours which is of course 1000 watt-hours.  Perhaps 
if you used kilowatt-hours you would not get the "huh's" 
because it is more common. IF you get "huh?'s" maybe you should
try to learn to explain what you mean so people can understand them.

Using incorrect terminology does NOT make anything
clearer. It makes people who understand these thing question whether
you know what your talking about or not. If you say your light
bulb uses 250 watts per day then I don't understand what you mean
on any level What I do understand is that you don't understand what 
your talking about! 


lewis@chaos.ph.utexas
 


From dbrewste@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:24 EDT 1994
Article: 664 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:04:58 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

brian (bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

: > What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
: > -- 

: It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
: to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
: that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
: see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
: S.D. Brian

Oh, I see.  The cops can't tell red people from green people under the 
lights (:-)


Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From lewis@chaos.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:25 EDT 1994
Article: 665 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!newshost.cc.utexas.edu!lewis
From: lewis@chaos.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:20:58
Organization: Center for Nonlinear Dynamics, University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LEWIS.94Aug2182058@chaos.utexas.edu>
References: <hatunenCtnotr.1oy@netcom.com>
	<Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.ph.utexas.edu
In-reply-to: dkulha@crl.com's message of 28 Jul 1994 22:50:12 -0000
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9407281556.A6476-0100000@crl3.crl.com> dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

   On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

   > Watts/hour being a nonsense unit, I will assume you mean output is
   > 50-60 watts, meaning he can't even light a decent reading lamp with
   > this. Since 60 watts for 24 hours is 1440 watt-hours, this sounds
   > correct. But my goodness, what's the point?

     I'll pass on your first comment; I phrased it that way for clarity.
								^^^^^^^
wrong!
   Everything is relative to one's mindset. I can power 3 OSRAM compact 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes some people don't care if they are wrong and confusing.

   flourescent 20 watt lamps with 60 watts and read quite well (with one 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes, 3 times 20 equal sixty so this makes sense. 

   lamp). In the context of your grid connected home 1400 watts might not 
   seem like a lot but to folks off the grid it's heaven. 1400watts will 
							  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   power a 16 cu. ft Sunfrost refridgerator for a day plus run 6 OSRAM 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   20w lamps for 5 hours and let me run my stereo for 6 hours. My energy 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
wrong
   budget for our new home is a little less than 4kWh per day. I wish we had 
yeah! you got it right!				 ^^^^
   a hydro resource because I'd love to have an extra 1400 watts day...
wrong!						      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

How many times have you been correct any you still get it wrong!
This is not clarity it is  wrong and confusing. Energy is not
power. They mean two different things.  You do not help matters
by confusing the two. You do not go to the store and buy 50 Watt-hour 
solar pannels, you buy 50 Watt pannels.  1400 watts will POWER anything
that uses 1400 watts or less for as long as you have 1400 watts.  If
you have 1400 watts plus storage then you can power things that that
use more than 1400 watts as long as you generate more Energy (watt hours)
than you use! 

learn the difference between energy and power.
If you want help e-mail me directly and I will try to clear it.
Really If you give the impression that you know what you are
talking about then people will take you more seriously.  You give
impression of someone that is entusiastic and has gotten alternative
energy to work for you, but also someone who's opinions and advice
I would  be cautious of.

lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From gmoke@world.std.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:25 EDT 1994
Article: 666 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!world!gmoke
From: gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Message-ID: <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 02:35:02 GMT
Lines: 7
Status: O
X-Status: 

: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
: >photovoltaic effect.

	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.



From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:26 EDT 1994
Article: 667 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:33:36 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
>FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
>between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
>of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
>use.

Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 

Besides, theft is a criminal law matter.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:26 EDT 1994
Article: 668 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 04:48:10 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:

>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> 
> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
         DCK
 



From Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:27 EDT 1994
Article: 669 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power...& Miracles
Message-ID: <441_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 16:40:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ron Perepolkin
Status: O
X-Status: 


 RP>    I have been lurking here for a month or so and had no intention of
 RP> posting until I read a post forwarded by Don Kulha regarding solar
 RP> electricity in Sri Lanka.  It hit a nerve so to speak when I read the
 RP> following passage.

 RP>    "The neighbors commented on how the usual
 RP> dark surroundings had been lit by Piyasena's home. They also pondered
 RP> with awe, how the sun had given them electricity.
 RP> From that evening, Piyasena could operate a few fluorescent lamps"

 RP>    Why did this hit a nerve?.... Why are people so obsessed with
 RP> lighting up the night sky and invading neighbors homes with their
 RP> *light pollution*???

    Some are, these folks definatly aren't...

    This article I posted from Home Power magazine is about bringing
electricity to  rural area of Sri Lanka that has never had electricity. They
aren't using the power from their smallish solar panel to purposely light the
area around their thatched hut, it refers to the light that escapes the
building in very stark contrast to the darkness that has been the norm for
centuries. If yours is the only electric light for miles around even a 15 watt
small flourescent will stick out like a 1000w metal halide does in a rural
american community.
    This was about enabling a people to expand their lives and the
possibilities of their future with the application of a little light. Now
people can read, work on crafts, sew, etc. when before they were slaves to the
setting sun. Their lives can be fuller in a lot of respects than it could
before.
    DCK


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:27 EDT 1994
Article: 670 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-compute
Message-ID: <442_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:49:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-13-94  22:15, through the porthole we saw
-<Elvis Hargrove say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 EH> That's why I offered to supply a few of these extraordinarily
 EH> cheap!  I'll NEVER use all the monitors I got at the auction, and
 EH> they're exceptionally well built and rugged.
[snip]

 EH> I've got 'em.  Just send netmail!
 EH> ^..^

I'll keep you in mind if I ever get enough $$ to replace this
computer.  You're not ENTHUSIASTIC about them are you? :-))

Jeff

... Fish to Live, Live to Fish
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:28 EDT 1994
Article: 671 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 08:51:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-14-94  19:42, through the porthole we saw
-<Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
 TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
 TW> wind generator.

Yes, but it will most likely be quite a while before I can find
the little ad I tore out...

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:28 EDT 1994
Article: 672 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <479_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 63
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

hay ya'll,
   Sunday 31-Jul-94 15:02:53  
 been noticing that some people(tho no one in this echo;'>)  are advocating 
that electricVehicles would actually be more polluting than the messes of 
internalCombustion engines we have now. .                        ^ ;'>
 . .this is a bunch of completely and uterly foolishly inane NONSENSE!!!
in fact that STUPID concept doesn't even deserve much disscussion,
but let me tell you what i think anyway;'>
 even considering that ePower plants continue to mostly use EVIL sources 
like coal, oil, nuclear(fission), and hydra(when *conventional* dammed
hydraElectric dies it will go to Purgatory. . uhh no pun intended;)  anyway,
 even IF we do stay evil and not use clean sources like solar, hydrogen, 
atomic(fussion), wind, squirrel, geoThermall, ETC.  There is noWay that having
millions(billions?) of IC's *all over the place* smoking in you face 
and down squirrel holes, chokeing birds out of trees, and dripping oil 
*everywhere*  would be better than having all that polution efficiently
concentrated at a few large plants which can be regulated, and tuned, 
and kept clean much more (efficient)effectively
 But forget about all that there are much better ways of powering 
transportation than on the eclectric power grid.  
EV's would be much more cost effective and less poluting if charged via solar, 
both on the car and on a more powerful setup at home; and how about partial
charging via alternator (recycle! :).   Tho i think the best way to go is 
hydrogen IC,   you can generate enough current (i think,) to split water with 
only the internal alternator(not to even mention solar). this can be done in 
internaly(realtime? :) on the road. Can you say: "my car is out of gas, can i 
use your hose?". I can see the Evian stickers now, "Powered by the Swiss Alps".
A recolection system is not to unfeasable either. Can you say: "infinite fuel
supply" !!!  
 oh did i mention that probably the best way to run any IC (or even indirect
IC like steam)  is with the bladeless turbine, an invention of Nicoli Tesla
(a fellow Slav too i might add:). the bladeless turbine operates on friction
with a moving fluid instead of impact; traditional turbines (say at Hoover dam)
work by the fluid (water) hitting the blades head on and by the force of 
impact turns the turbine.  in Tesla's bladeless turbine the fluid runs *more*
parallel to the "turbine" and pulls it along via the friction betwixt the 
device and the fluid.  btw gas(air) IS a fliud.    nother thing, the bladless
turbine motor needs one moving part!
 on the subj of turbins and tubers:  the bladeless turbinE would likely be 
more efficient in hydra and wind electric;  dig this instead of damning the 
river (pun intended), a series of BT's, each running in to the next, and set
near the top of the water level and screened off(to prevent the enterence of 
creatures), with the river continuing to flow over, under, and around the setup
  Or on a smaller scale water flows into the turbine gravity feed style 
(ie. funneled into smaller and smaller pipes, greatly increasing the pressure).
  this can work for wind power too (funneling it down) but obviously wouldn't 
be feasible on a small scale. Tho all space that mass wind power plants take 
up i wonder if it wouldn't be feasible to use BT's, (again maybe even in 
series, so one flows into an other smaller. .)
 i hav been working on all of these things tho mostly in me head at this point
i think i'll be working on some practical results soon.
 btw all of the GOOD power sources i mentioned above can be used in large scale
power plants, yes especially squirrels. and think about this any plants that 
operate by burning things could easily be converted to hydrogen w/out much 
new equipment, just (get this) solar panels for electrolizing water and the 
equipment and plumbing to actualy do the electrolisys and get the H to the 
place where it is burned.

of course, i'm no expert ;'>
            zachariahCzeck@willits;'>
             jason organist   jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:29 EDT 1994
Article: 673 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <47a_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Aug 94 05:53:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 01-Aug-94 00:21:40
 willits,california,usa,earth,solsystem,westernarm,milkyway,primeplane...
hey  hey  hey  h-h-hey hey hey  hey  hey  heeeyy h-h-heyheyheyh-gitchYer
handsoffa maee-hey hey h-h-heyh-heyhey well i dont knowww. . . er. . um
. .wrong brainSector...
..hey hey h#@&#!%&
DAMN...sorry...
hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their location 
somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or somfin
 It's really cool to know where people are comming from  + it really sucks to 
read posts that go like this:  "Yeah, well way out here we don't even have
[insert appropriate commodity] and we have to drive 587,642 miles just to 
get to a place where you can even look at a picture of it." .
which always leaves scratching my head and saying that, yeah, i can see 
that sort of problem arising way out on Mars!
 cool to know the real date too
zachariahCzeck willits
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From lschlos@pica.army.mil Sat Aug  6 10:40:30 EDT 1994
Article: 674 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ukma!ovation!metis.pica.army.mil!user
From: lschlos@pica.army.mil (Lanny Schlosberg)
Subject: EV Owners in NE USA
Message-ID: <lschlos-020894050305@metis.pica.army.mil>
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Sender: usenet@pica.army.mil (USENET Special Account <usenet>)
Nntp-Posting-Host: metis
Organization: Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey USA
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:03:05 GMT
Lines: 12
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have been in contact with other EV owners on the EV news list, but the
majority have been from California with a few from Florida and the mid-
west.  Are there any EV owners out there within a 50 mile radius of NYC
(I am about 40 miles west of the George Wash Bridge in NJ) and am int-
erested in where other EV owners get various parts, batteries at a good
price, local tech help, and how they have fared in the winter with their
EV's.  I have a 1980 Commuta-Car that I bought 13 years ago, and would 
be glad to share experiences.  If I can find a good buy for new batteries
and the EV auto insurance is not out of sight, I would like to put it
back on the road.  Do any insurance companies offer low rates for EVs.
Mine won't put the EV on the family policy.         lschlos@pica.army.mil
 


From kburtch@pts.mot.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:30 EDT 1994
Article: 675 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!pts-nntp!sun572!kburtch
From: kburtch@pts.mot.com (Kevin Burtch)
Subject: Re: Propane generators
Message-ID: <CtxGnn.9nD@pts.mot.com>
Sender: news@pts.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun572
Reply-To: kburtch@pts.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc, Paging Products Group, Boynton Beach, FL
References: <a13_9407291647@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 21:50:11 GMT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 


I did some research on propane a couple of years ago and found out some
interesting things...

	Propane has an equivalant octane rating of 105 to 130 (depending on
	  who you talk to :) Due to its extreme expansion, going from a
	  compressed liquid to an ambient pressure gas cools the engine
	  intake drastically. Most conversion kits (for cars) actually have
	  heat exchangers to _heat_ the fuel for this reason.

	Propane conversions and dual-fuel systems are much _less_ fuel
	  efficient than burning gasoline unless the above point is taken
	  into consideration. In other words, if you plan to run (only)
	  propane, raise the compression way up! Then they are much _more_
	  efficient. More compression means more power from the same amount
	  of fuel. (they also take to super/turbo-charging quite well :)

	Propane burns _much_ cleaner and more completely than gasoline, as
	  it is already in a gaseous form by the time it gets in the engine.

	Propane engines last much longer because the oil lasts longer... It
	  is contaminated much less by carbon and unburnt liquid fuels, so
	  it not only doesn't break down as fast, but it also looks clean
	  longer :)

One drawback to using propane power is the fact that a (relatively) large 
amount of the exhaust contains water vapor. You have to use a stainless
steel exhaust. :)

Later,
Kevin

P.S. "top end lubrication" is not a problem for any engine designed to run
      on _unleaded_ gasoline, only for old leaded burning engines.

P.P.S. Why is this thread in alt.energy.renewable?
                                          ^ ^ ^   Propane is dead dinosaurs!







From brop9555@utdallas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:31 EDT 1994
Article: 676 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!convex!arco!news.utdallas.edu!not-for-mail
From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 03:43:13 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <31nlb1$kim@utdallas.edu>
References: <85d_9408011041@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: infoserv.utdallas.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: 6994
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From brian@positron.amd.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:31 EDT 1994
Article: 677 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!news.fujitsu.com!amdahl!amd!amdint.amd.com!txnews.amd.com!positron!brian
From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <Ctyrwo.ArD@txnews.amd.com>
Sender: news@txnews.amd.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: positron
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
References: <LEWIS.94Aug2170624@chaos.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 14:50:47 GMT
Lines: 25
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:32 EDT 1994
Article: 678 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 3 Aug 1994 11:55:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31oekn$aja@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax




From bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:32 EDT 1994
Article: 679 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu!user
From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Date: 3 Aug 1994 16:04:41 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <bailey-0308940914520001@hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu>
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu> <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hmb2mac11.berkeley.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From jocoats@amoco.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:33 EDT 1994
Article: 680 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!news
From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.075815.29936@amoco.com>
Sender: news@amoco.com
Reply-To: jocoats@amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Corportation
References: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 07:58:15 CDT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org




From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:33 EDT 1994
Article: 681 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 3 Aug 1994 17:57:52 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 43
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51 Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas



From sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:34 EDT 1994
Article: 682 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!cyanamid!ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com!sopchakd
From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Subject: Re: Wasted powerrREGISTER
Message-ID: <1994Aug3.132612.1@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com>
Summary: Wasted lighting?
Lines: 38
Sender: news@cyanamid.uucp
Organization: AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:26:12 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian) writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com



From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Sat Aug  6 10:40:34 EDT 1994
Article: 683 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:43:33 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <31nos5$e21@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Sat Aug  6 10:40:35 EDT 1994
Article: 684 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural electrification
Date: 3 Aug 1994 09:48:14 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <31np4u$e21@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Sat Aug  6 10:40:35 EDT 1994
Article: 685 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!mandla
From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV standards enquiry
Date: 3 Aug 1994 10:51:06 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31nsqq$gtn@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk Sat Aug  6 10:40:36 EDT 1994
Article: 686 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!demon!nhopton.demon.co.uk!Nick
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Distribution: world
References: <Pine.3.87.9408010021.A24851-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Organization: Home, in Reading, England.
Reply-To: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29
Lines: 14
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 18:41:56 +0000
Message-ID: <775852916snz@nhopton.demon.co.uk>
Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From massagja@pegate.byu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:37 EDT 1994
Article: 687 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!gatech!news.byu.edu!news
From: massagja@pegate.byu.edu (John Massaglia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Car Newsclip
Date: 3 Aug 1994 21:23:33 GMT
Organization: Brigham Young University
Lines: 101
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[4338]
Message-ID: <31p1sl$5cg@bones.et.byu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sprawl.byu.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@103187128in-addrarpa
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Guys.
I found this article here on the byu.news newsgroup.  I thought that
you all might find it interesting.  Enjoy!

---------snip---------

BYU Professor Seeks "Model A" Approach to Electric Cars


     PROVO, Utah (Aug. 1, 1994)--Total electric cars have been
available for decades, but it took a totaled automobile to inspire
a BYU professor to build a unique new electric car high in
practicality and low on cost. 
     Engineering professor Robert  H. Todd says he has long been
intrigued with the idea of building an electric car with "off the
shelf," or readily available items. His is a low-tech approach
where components designed for other purposes are  converted into
parts for an electric vehicle. 
     He wanted his car to extend beyond the realm of golf cart or
a very short distance vehicle.  Yet he also wanted to avoid the
$40,000 to $60,000 price tag associated with electric vehicle
prototypes from major automobile manufacturers who are scrambling
to comply with a California law.  After 1998 California will
require any company selling more than 35,000 vehicles a year to
have two percent of them be zero emission vehicles.  Electric cars
are the only known zero emission motorcar existing today.
     "Their researchers are going along the high-tech highway, but
the costs are so expensive,  the cars in development are beyond the
affordability and interest of the average American driver," Todd
says.  "I take my motivation from Henry Ford and his Model T and 
Model A cars.  Ford thrived on a foundation of simple parts put
together well.  Ford also had a strong ethic of giving people what
they wanted and could afford, something I firmly believe is a key
to manufacturing success."
     After one of his sons had an accident in the smaller of Todd's
two family cars, the engineer--who worked his way through school as
a mechanic--decided to test his hypothesis that he could build a
sensible, desirable car that would cost less than $10,000 and be
inexpensive to operate.
     "I wanted a car I could drive back and forth to work every
day," he explains. "I bought a 1993 Ford Festiva, took everything
apart and donated the engine and all the engine components to BYU. 
I listed the features and functions I wanted for the car and
brainstormed different ways to get those results."
     He obtained his motor from a company in New York, batteries
from California and other components from suppliers in Salt Lake
City and around the country.  As he analyzed the functions he
needed, he realized he was designing a family's second car, the one
driven on errands around town instead of the vehicle used for long
trips.
     "From the extensive research I did before I started the
project, I learned that 85 percent of all American cars are driven
fewer than 35 miles a day," he says.  "I wanted an affordable car
that filled the needs for that kind of use."
      Todd's electric motor has only one moving part, compared to
the multi-component standard internal combustion engine.  It will
produce 82 horsepowers at 120 volts and go approximately 100 miles
at 45 miles per hour on a single charge.  Its top speed ranges
between 65 and 70 miles per hour.
     "I charge it a couple of times a week by plugging it into a
normal 110-volt outlet overnight," Todd says.  "I estimate
electricity costs about a penny a mile, or about 100 miles to the
gallon if gasoline costs a dollar a gallon.  When gasoline is
higher than that, the electric car is even more economical."
     Among the advantages of an electric car is the maximum torque,
or power from the motor that occurs when the car is started.  "You
get a sensation of quite a bit of acceleration when you first
accelerate the car compared with an internal combustion engine
where you have to get the engine revved up to obtain reasonable
torque valves.  Electric cars are very quiet and simple in their
construction, which should allow them to be maintained easily. The
horsepower rating is similar to what you find in a regular car."
     Happy with his vehicle, but not content that it is a finished
product, Todd is working to solve new problems.  He is thinking of
ways to decrease rolling resistance in tires, so there is less
friction.  He is working on cooling and heating devices that are
not so draining on the batteries, and is experimenting with an
element from a 1000 watt hair dryer that could provide heat and
warm air and pass through the regular duct system.  A fellow
faculty member, Carl Sorensen, and a student have also been
designing a measure that indicates how much battery charge is left,
with the intent of using the existing fuel gauge.
     The weakest link in the electric car concept, Todd says, is
the battery.  "My car has 850 pounds of batteries and  the total
car weighs about 500 pounds more than it did originally.  This is 
still within the gross vehicle weight allowed for the vehicle. The
future of electric cars is really tied to new battery technology
that is inexpensive, recyclable and has more energy density pound
per weight."
     Todd says he has always enjoyed building things because of
what he learns in the process.  "This project has been a prime
example of that principle."
     He has gained support from Ford, who has donated another car
as a platform for testing electric car components.  California
Edison also has expressed an interest in his technology.

----------snip-----------     

John Massaglia
John_Massaglia@byu.edu    Workers of the World:  Relax!
http://sprawl.byu.edu


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:37 EDT 1994
Article: 688 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:24:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031826.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <775852916snz@nhopton.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Nick Hopton wrote:

> In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:
> 
> > CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> > Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> > DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> > dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...
> 
> Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
> be obliged.

    I'm not sure what is going on exactly....I started posting some 
articles from home power here after uploading them to my unix host and 
then copying them into the message I was composing. Apparently the 
articles look fine on some systems and are total junk on others. Grrr...

   The look fine when I send them to myself but on AOL and some other 
systems they come out trashed. Darn, I'll have to stop posting them until 
I figure out what the problem is...
     DCK




From erg4@acpub.duke.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:38 EDT 1994
Article: 689 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!erg4
From: erg4@acpub.duke.edu (ERNESTO GRUNDSETH)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 00:24:21 GMT
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: teer3.acpub.duke.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

don walli (don.walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: From: dwalli@mtu.edu (don walli)
: Date: 20 Jul 94 13:33:30 GMT

: Everyone in this thread seems to have touched on, and subsequently
: ignored,
: what seems to be the most likely (most logical? maybe) solution for
: this
: whole process, and that's an overall systems approach. By that, I mean 
: using a system of several different technologies to solve the problem
: (in
: this case, vehicular power).

: Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: (assumed from water).
: What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: modules?
Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
not too good :(
: Yes, you have the initial outlay needed to build the cells, but
: electrolysis
: can happen at *very* low voltages, so really high power output is not 
: absolutely essential. And even if your PV cells aren't highly
: efficient--so
: what??? The sun is still *free*. Ross hasn't figured out a way to bill
: us for that one yet.

: So now you have H2, and you're (rightly) concerned about the potential
: output of an H2-powered IC engine. What about using a fuel cell
: instead? Your waste
: output (with the exception of the eventually-depleted catalyst) is very
: low, 
: and now you have electric power in your vehicle (or home, or
: municipality, or whereever you set up the fuel cells. And, yes, the
: fuel cell does introduce some more losses (as the affordable ones are
: not all that efficient). However,I would think that those losses might
: (*might*) be acceptable when
: you consider that the overall system here does not require the use of
: any non-renewable resources (in the generation of the fuel, anyway).


I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
the silicon enviromental???? just wondering

bye
Ernesto Grundseth
erg4@acpub.duke.edu

converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!




From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:39 EDT 1994
Article: 690 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 01:55:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
power and energy in any case. 
    DCK




From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:39 EDT 1994
Article: 691 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:35:44 GMT
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

|     Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
|transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
|more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.

Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by a
metal box after all.

Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that.
Don't do anything that will prevent the utility workers from gaining
access to the box, or one day you will come home to find your entire
assembly in little bitty pieces in the stree.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:40 EDT 1994
Article: 692 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775949957@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:39:17 GMT
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:

|By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
|have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

I find this very hard to believe. FIrst, the best way to couple two wires
magnetically is to run them in parallel. Secondly unless these *parallel*
wires (I do mean wires in plural, you will need many loops to get any
practical power) were practically touching the power company's wires,
there would not be that much magnetic energy to tap.

|Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
|can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
|anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have

Either the laws of evidence or vastly different in sweden or the power
company has extremely incompetent laywers. Proving that the power in
the induction coils came from the power company's lines is trivial from
a physical perspective.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:40 EDT 1994
Article: 693 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Wasted power
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950426@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:06 GMT
References: <73c_9407301837@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu> <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <dbrewsteCtxsGA.EH5@netcom.com> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:

|Sounds more like some lawyer has been at work than a real problem.

Whenever laywers get to work you have a real problem. ;*)
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Sat Aug  6 10:40:41 EDT 1994
Article: 694 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: thermophotovoltaics
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.775950475@ncratl>
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:47:55 GMT
References: <Ctqquv.IHL@eskimo.com> <Ctro5q.Bru@eskimo.com> <31jgen$e6@nyx.cs.du.edu> <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 16
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <CtxtuF.DF0@world.std.com> gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray) writes:

|: >The conversion of thermal energy to elecricity by the 
|: >photovoltaic effect.

|	I remember a presentation a couple of years ago about a furnace
|that had pv inside the combustion chamber to recover energy and raise
|the efficiency.  Forget who was building it though.

I would have thought that if the light did not escape it would be eventually
turned to heat anyway.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:42 EDT 1994
Article: 695 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 02:13:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408031906.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 




> -< through the porthole we saw Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:
> 
>  TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
>  TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
>  TW> wind generator.
> 
    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 
soliciting info to post online (never received)....DCK




From shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au Sat Aug  6 10:40:42 EDT 1994
Article: 696 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: shay@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Shay Telfer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: (none)
Date: 4 Aug 1994 03:24:19 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408040319.LAA08955@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

help




From communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca Sat Aug  6 10:40:43 EDT 1994
Article: 697 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!deep7.dial.mindlink.bc.ca!communicopia
From: communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca (Communicopia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electricty -- Public Consultation
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 21:01:46
Organization: MIND LINK! Communications Corp.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <communicopia.8.00150830@mindlink.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: deep7.dial.mindlink.bc.ca
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Can anyone point me to a source of information on public consultation programs 
regarding utilitiy rate increases.  Case studies, methodology, etc. would all 
be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Scott Nelson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             C O M M U N I C O P I A
             Environmental Research and Communications
                 Ph: 604.875.9990          Fx: 604.875.9584
 WWW:  http://interchange.idc.uvic.ca/communicopia/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:43 EDT 1994
Article: 698 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: No Opposing Viewpoints P
Message-ID: <5f3_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 08:25:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 02-Aug-94 03:20:52
           santaRosa,CA,usa :

HHC> Don Kulha, Moderator of this conference, has apparently taken offense
HHC> with some of my postings and followups, making it clear that my
HHC> presence
HHC> is unwanted.  He sums up his opion this way:

HHC> >       This conference is for the discussion of clean, earth-friendly
HHC> > power technology. Nuclear does not meet any of those criteria. If you
HHC> > wish to continue this line of discussion please take it to sci.energy
HHC> > where your idea will find many entusiastic supporters. Lots of GE and
HHC> > Westinghouse folks frequent that discussion. We operate under the
HHC> concept
HHC> > that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles
HHC> away.
HHC> >
HHC> >    Don Kulha
HHC> >      Moderator HOMEPOWER

Harry,  I am *NOT* Don and i cannot speak for him, nor do i want to.
 i have not seen all the postings wich led to this. 
BUT i will tell you what i think ;'>
i do not believe that Don has taken offense to what you said, nor that
this was his reason for asking you to end that PARTICULAR discussion.

i do believe that he made a rebuttal to what you said and then, 
in the same post, but quite separately, he ASKED you to take an 
*offtopic* line of discussion elsewhere. 
 just read for yerself,  it's ALL right there in the passage YOU quoted!

i also very deeply disagree with you being asked to end the discussion
of nuclear power, as i think it definately belongs in the discussion of
alternative energy souces. I am informing Don of this as well.
-by the way this discussion group consists of the original 
 (noninternet)Fidonet ECHO (called Alternative Energy and Home Power)
 linked with the Usenet newsgroup  (?) alt.energy.alternative
 i'm on the Fido side :)

Harry, i disagree wholeheartedly with just about evey word you utered 
after this,  esp. the energy related stuff. But i sincerely hope you
will not end you correspondence here as i value free discussion, not
only for the exchange of ideas but because everyone has the innate 
right to say what they feel.
 i think (from what you said in this post) that you will find that
in this group(in general) peoples attitudes and beliefs are much 
different than what you have been led to believe (incl Don's :).
Please stick around...at least so we can  ;'> educate ;'>  you and
woop ya into shape ;)
Not now, but i for one have some meaty replies comming.

Too all-
  you know i've noticed that 99% of all angry or hurt replies come
  from people who, it SEEMS, just didn't read the offending msg,
  or, more broadly: They didn't listen fully to what to what was 
  said.
   here's some advice to ya'll -we all deserve to be listened to 
  fairly; and you, AT LEAST, owe it to a person to hear
  (really *hear*) what they have to say before ya get all pissed-off.
  Don't you think??

zachariahCzeck@willits ;'>
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:44 EDT 1994
Article: 700 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Egt?  Get?  Teg?  Gte
Message-ID: <61b_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Brewster
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Where can I get a calibration curve for one of those?

Afraid you'll hve to make your own, Dick.  Actually since EGT is a relative
thing, a calibration chart is sort of gilding the lilly, but you certainly
could calibrate it with low temp melting metals to establish several
calibration points, or you could take one to a foundry where they have an
accurate pyrometer and just calibrate it against that.

-> Any reason why it won't work on a large engine?

Absolutely none.  They work FINE on big engines.  I know where there's a
Waukesha on natural gas with one of my EGT probes on it.  On a REALLY big
engine it's nice to mount it on a relatively light section of exhaust pipe to
avoid thermal lag.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:44 EDT 1994
Article: 701 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <61c_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 06:56:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Coats
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> I'd like one that runs on natural gas... Especially if it is fairly quiet...

That's up to YOU Jack. Mufflers are an art not a science.  <grin>  BUT, natural
gas engines really are somewhat quieter than gasoline and substantially so
compared to diesels.  YMMVH


-> Are there any 'cheap' methods of conversion from gas to nat'l gas?


Sure!  It doesn't get much cheaper than a gas pipe stuffed down the carb
throat to near the throttle butterfly. Or you can "spud" a gas carburetor by
drilling through the side near the venturii to introduce a vapor entry.
I have a method I use on Tillotson carbs where I just remove the float bowl and
screw a vapor connector straight into the pickup where the main jet goes for
gasoline.

In any or all these systems the vapor-fuel pressure must be regulated
carefully, but with a little care either system will remain fairly
throttleable, and therefore governable.

Crude, but CHEAP and I've used these systems for years.

   ^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:45 EDT 1994
Article: 702 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <61d_9408032301@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 07:17:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the
-> "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it
-> great enough to worry about?

No.  Mag South is close enough unless you live somewhere with weird magnetic
deviation.

If you really want to get picky, SOLAR south moves slightly throughout the
year.  On any given day solar south is where the sun is at local solar noon.
(The spot where the sun is highest in it's travels.)

MEAN solar south is the average of these various annual locations.

   ^..^


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:46 EDT 1994
Article: 703 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hi
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:52:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 11
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408041443.JAA08726@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello!  It's great to see a newsgroup I can really relate to!  I've missed
out on the first few weeks of this group because I couldn't find a news
server that carries it.  So I went the mailing list route.

Could someone send me a FAQ on this group (if it exists) or the "Welcome to
alt.energy.renewable" file (if it exists).  Thanks.

Ben Fiore
befiore@students.wisc.edu
(see HP#37 "PV in the City" for background)



From lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:46 EDT 1994
Article: 704 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:18:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 69
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408040947.A3669-0100000@laminar.ph.utexas.edu>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 3 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 
Don,  
	I am glad to see your reply.  If you make sure you are correct,
then when people complain you can point out that you are using the
correct units and explain why.  That way you can win, and you would be 
providing a service by educating others. The more people understand 
alternative energy the better off we all will be.

	Now that you seem reponsive I'll try to help clear up some
confusion. Power is energy per unit time. That is, how quickly energy
is being used or produced. Energy is measured in watt-hours (or Joules,
3600 joules equal 1 watt hour) Power is measured in watts (1 watt is a 
Joule per second). 

A simple example: Running a 60 watt light bulb for one hour uses
60 watt-hours of energy.  A 100 watt light bulb run for a half
hour uses 50 watt-hours.  So the 100 watt light bulb uses more
power (i.e. uses energy faster) but in this example it uses
less energy because it is turned on for a shorter period of time.

What is also obviously important is the effeciency of light bulbs.
The power rating on a light bulb is determined by how much power
it uses, not by how much light it produces (how bright something
is can also be measured in power).  Compact flourescents are a good
idea because far more of the energy is converted to light than for
a regualar incandecent light bulb (which converts most of the energy
to heat), so they are just as bright for much less energy.

The above example is pretty straight foward but lets look at something
alittle less obvious. Take a 1500 watt refridgerator vs a 2000 watt
refidgerator. What would use less energy?  Well from what I've told 
said you have no way of knowing.  The power on appliences tells you
how much energy the applience uses while it is on, it does not
tell you what percentage of the time it is on.  So an effeicent
well insulated 2000 watt refidgerator may use far less energy
than a 1500 watt refridgerator even though it uses more power,
simply because its compressor would be running less often.

The same sort of comparison can be made for producing energy.
A 1000 watt low head hydro plant may produce far more energy
than A 2500 watt solar cell array, simply because it produce
energy all day and all night while the solar cells only
produce energy during part of the day. The solar cell array
produces energy faster (i.e. more power) but only when
the sun is shinning.  

Thats a start.  I think you'll be able to make better choices
if you have no confusion about these definitions.


Greg.





From dwalli@mtu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:47 EDT 1994
Article: 705 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 3 Aug 1994 18:34:08 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31p610$3qu@lilbuddy.hu>
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com> <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lilbuddy.hu.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu

Sarah E. Flack (sflack@moose.uvm.edu) wrote:
: We generate all our electricity using 2 pv panels in northern Vermont, 
: where we get several (lots!) feet of snow each winter.  Our panels are on 
: our roof (12/12 pitch), and we set a ladder up next to them, which we 
: climb up every morning in the winter to sweep off the snow with a broom.  
: We find that if the snow is cleaned off every morning, if any more snow 
: falls during the day it usually will melt off because the dark solar 
: panels do warm up (if the sun does indeed shine!).  We live near the city 
: of Burlington, Vermont, which is the fifth most cloudy city in the U.S., 
: and we still manage to generate enough power using 2 solar panels!  Snow 
: is less of a problem than day length and cloudy weeks here.
: 
: 			Sarah Flack
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Sat Aug  6 10:40:47 EDT 1994
Article: 706 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hydrogen storage
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:57:28 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408041548.KAA14565@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Great to hear that someone in the northern US isn't afraid to try solar.
>I'm in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I'm interested in using PV
>cells to generate power, but I'm mostly interested in using them to run
>an electrolysis (sp?) plant for generating hydrogen. Anyone out there doing
>this now? I would really like to ultimately run a hydrogen fuel cell for
>generating my electricity, but I'm not sure who to contact about getting
>the electrolysis equipment or a fairly cheap fuel cell. 

There's a firm here in Madison, WI called Energy Islands International that
sells off the shelf PV and wind systems that power self-pressurizing
hydrogen electrolyzers.  The compressed hydrogen is then burned cleanly in
an engine-generator set.  I've heard it works great.

access:  Alex DePillis, Energy Islands Int'l
         111 King St., Madison, WI 53703
         (608) 284-0700



From hatunen@netcom.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:48 EDT 1994
Article: 707 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <hatunenCu0LLn.LCJ@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <Pine.3.89.9408031213.C13821-0100000@chaos.ph.utexas.edu> <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 14:29:46 GMT
Lines: 33
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
>folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
>seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 

I would think you would see your role as at least partly an eductional
one. Why not use the terms correctly? To claim that correct terminolgy
confuses things is absurd. After all, if you drove on a long trip would
you say "I went 65 miles per hour per day"? That's how retarded misuse
of electrical terminology looks.

>I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
>a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
>week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
>magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>    Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
>permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
>power and energy in any case. 

I really hate to sound abusive, but it's almost impossible to discuss
this subject properly and usefully unless you do understand the
difference: it makes the difference between feasible and ridiculous.




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Sat Aug  6 10:40:49 EDT 1994
Article: 708 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 4 Aug 1994 14:29:09 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31qtvl$85u@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408031848.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 


It seems to me there is correlation between people using their own home 
made units and american programmers...........
I had a lot of problems working with some Americans, they could never adapt
to international standards (SI units) of writing the units for speed, 
distance, time, volume, current, voltage and a lot of other things.
(One of them was a formal professor ! (the Univ. feedback)).
It's very nice and easy using SI units, You don't need a lot of conversion
factors.
Is this antipathy against standards something typical for programmers or is it
just some american style of living ?

the opinion above is my own etc.....
/oö



From btwatts@vnet.ibm.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:49 EDT 1994
Article: 709 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!locutus.rchland.ibm.com!brophy.rchland.ibm.com!watts
From: watts@brophy.rchland.ibm.com (Byron Watts)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: off-the-grid-computers
Date: 4 Aug 1994 15:26:14 GMT
Organization: IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31r1am$1fn2@locutus.rchland.ibm.com>
References: <443_9408021038@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <Pine.3.87.9408031906.A12991-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
Reply-To: btwatts@vnet.ibm.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: brophy.rchland.ibm.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
>the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
>MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 

I called the number and found it disconnected....

--

Byron T. Watts (Tops)

My opinions are my opinions.

IBM:	     RCHLAND(WATTS)
Internet:  btwatts@vnet.ibm.com

There is an alarming increase in the number of topics I know nothing about.


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:40:50 EDT 1994
Article: 710 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 4 Aug 1994 11:57:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31r34h$6r9@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) writes:

"Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by
a
metal box after all."

     I've already done some prelim testing and that's about the speed of
it.

"Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that. Don't do anything that will
prevent the utility workers from gaining access to the box, or one day you
will come home to find your entire assembly in little bitty pieces in the
stree."

     Funny - up until I cleared it out a year ago the only way you could
tell there was a box anywhere in the bushes was by the humming noise.
Since I don't live anywhere near a nuclear reactor that might have leaked
I doubted it was the plants - so it had to be a transformer.

Shadowfax




From Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:51 EDT 1994
Article: 711 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2330-4-0!Darr.Hoag
From: Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org (Darr Hoag)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <142_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:05 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA -
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 

@00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
> hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their 
> location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline or
> somfin

Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

... Electricians do it in hot boxes!


From Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:52 EDT 1994
Article: 712 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Paul.Leventhal
From: Paul.Leventhal@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Paul Leventhal)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <157_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 22:36:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, M
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: nci@access2.digex.net (Paul Leventhal)
Date: 24 Jul 94 17:36:10 GMT


  
  In this ongoing controversy about whether nuclear power should be 
discussed here, one very basic and simple point is being ignored:

  Whether nuclear energy is clean or preferable or not, it is *not* 
renewable.  It's based on uranium, a finite resource.  Even if we 
reprocess spent nuclear fuel to recover plutonium and use that in breeder 
reactors (giving every nation that does so quick access to nuclear 
weapons in the process), uranium is still a finite resource.

  So if it's not renewable, why discuss it in alt.energy.renewable?

Steven Dolley


From Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:52 EDT 1994
Article: 713 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Cyber.City
From: Cyber.City@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Cyber City)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: electric scooters
Message-ID: <158_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Jul 94 23:12:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cyber1@io.org (Cyber City)
Date: 24 Jul 94 18:12:52 GMT

Nick Lindert <nlindert@ichips.intel.com> wrote:
>
>I once heard of someone having an electric scooter.  Does anyone have details
>on one of these?  Who sells them?  Cost? etc.

Try this company:

Ortho Kinetic, Inc.
P.O. Box 1647
Waukesha, Wisconsin 53187
(800) 824-1068
Fax: (414) 542-4258

Their scooters are sold mostly for disabled people, and cost is probably
over $2000.  Range is ~20 miles.

I have no connection to the company.


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:53 EDT 1994
Article: 714 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <159_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:16:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:16:24 GMT

In article ied@sundog.tiac.net, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
> Marc Visconte (Marc.Visconte@f25.n275.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
> : BP"PC>What ever happened to Mazda's water powered motor?

> : intend on selling it).  If someone ELSE copied it from YOU...
> : (remember the old Breck shampoo commercial?  "And SHE told two people,
> : and they EACH told two people...")

> I assume that you are joking about this.
> 
> If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> cheap!

You don't believe in cars running on water?!  How about the Russian water
fuelled car???  They've been manufacturing it for years!  It's huge and it
containes political prizoners in the engine compartment.  When you listen to
the engine you can hear: get me some water, get me some water,...


From Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:54 EDT 1994
Article: 715 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Chris.Cieszewski
From: Chris.Cieszewski@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Chris Cieszewski)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: swimming pool heater
Message-ID: <15a_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Jul 94 08:20:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Northern Forestry Centre, Northwest Region, Canadi
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ccieszew@nofc.forestry.ca (Chris Cieszewski)
Date: 23 Jul 94 03:20:19 GMT

> On (11 Jul 94) Jody Gorran wrote to All...
> 
>  JG> If anyone out there in cyberspace is interested in a true
>  JG> application of renewable energy technology, ie. solar
>  JG> swimming pool heating, I'd be happy to make arrangements to
>  JG> send you a free booklet on this subject.

I am and I cannot find the original posting...






Chris.


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:40:55 EDT 1994
Article: 716 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <15b_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Jul 94 07:08:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 65
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 25 Jul 94 02:08:04 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9407221629.A981-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:
>
>> A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
>> dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
>> generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
>> to clear out the silt. 
>
>    Lest someone actually believe Dave's statement about Hydro being a 
>non-renewable resource please keep in mind that he's speaking of large 
>scale hydro. Such may be the case (though the engineer I just spoke to 
>thought not but will check on this and get back to me) for the big stuff 
>but small hydro doesn't have this problem (if it did an afternoon with a 
>shovel ought to fix things in most cases). Hydro is one of the best 
>sources of energy in the renewables field.

I agree that almost any backyard power system can be made feasible by
someone who doesn't have to meet any economic goals, such as rasonable
power costs at a reasonable profit, and is willing to invest a lot of
free labor. And I wasn't addressing this narrow case. It has other
problems, such as drought. And, depending on the size of the backyard
dam, that could be an awful lot of shoveling. And of course, a lot
depends on just how much storage the installation needs, i.e., big damv
vs little dam. So yes, I was speaking of larger scales. And I got the
impression the person I responded to was also.

>> The time frame for silting varies from dam to dam, of course, but some
>> very important dams are figured to be silted up within a century or so.
>> Once this happens at Boulder Dam, for instance, there will be
>> downstream catastrophe as the devestating lower Colorado River floods
>> of yesteryear return. And a major source of power will be lost.
>
>    I'm skeptical about our inability to do anything about silting Dave. 
>We dredge habors, make canals etc. and can't deal with some silt? I hope 
>to get feedback next week from the people at Hetch hetchy and Hoover so 
>I'll let you know one way or another what I find out.

There are already major envorinmental problems due to harbor dredging.
The dredging here of the Oakland Estuary for deep-draft ships caused a
major flap, because it was going to be dumped at sea where local
fisherman say there are major fisheries. It's not "some silt". Check
the capacity of, say, Lake Mead, and try to invent an acceptable way to
get the silt out if it filled up. Sure, you could build a major
railroad to carry train loads of silt to the Sea oc Cortez. But that
would be a heavy financial burden.

Canal construction usually relies on finding some local use for the
dirt. In any case, it's not comparable to a silted up dam. I suspect
the problem at Hetch-hetchy isn't the same as at Lake Mead, since
Hetch-Hetchy gets its water from a relatively silt-free mountain
stream. But the Colorado river has always carried a lot of silt.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:55 EDT 1994
Article: 717 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculati
Message-ID: <15f_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 04:04:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Fatih A Rifki
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Locality is also important. For example a site close to a power plant
-> (electric) or tranformer/switchgear may throw the magnetic reading
-> immensely.

Are you SURE?  I've never seen such a local anomally attributable to AC power
systems.

^..^


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:57 EDT 1994
Article: 718 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <163_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 00:21:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-771-0041
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Eric Gray
Status: O
X-Status: 

EG>DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
EG>  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is use
EG>  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

EG>Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

EG>Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage ifsealed properly. Gas goes
stale in a few months time.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * We are all prisoners of our own device!


From Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:58 EDT 1994
Article: 719 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-124-1208-0!Bob.Kerstetter
From: Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Kerstetter)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TCA: Renewables in Texas
Message-ID: <168_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: * MacSavvy * Dallas * Home of the POWERPC echo *
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dewey Coffman
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 23 Jul 94  19:32:45 Dewey Coffman wrote to  All:
 DC> Texans make the equipment necessary to power this next boom. We
 DC> make wind turbines near Wichita Falls and towers in El Paso.  We 
 DC> manufacture photovoltaic systems in Houston, Dallas and other
parts
 DC> of the state.  A unique solar dish engine is now being built in
 DC> Abilene.


Can you tell me who makes these things? Especially the Abilene project.
 -> Alice4Mac 2.4.2 E Blue Eval:05Jun94 


From Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:58 EDT 1994
Article: 720 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-382-806-0!Wes.Gainer
From: Wes.Gainer@f806.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Wes Gainer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: deep cycles
Message-ID: <181_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 03:28:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Just Fishing  *  Georgetown, TX. (512) 930-5092  *
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bill Parker
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think that you will find that a deep cycle battery has larger plates 
that are design to be nearly full discharged before they are recharged.
They can be recharged many times before they do bad.
 
A car battery will not take many full discharged before being 
destroyed.
 
All big batteries forklift, train, boat, etc.
 
Hope that helps.


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:40:59 EDT 1994
Article: 721 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <186_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:41:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


   Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.

   With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
   if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
   plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
   need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
   is a 486/33, if that matters.

   I'm a programmer, but not an EE so any info would be greatly
   appreciated.

   Thanx, Bill
     
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 *  
                                               


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:00 EDT 1994
Article: 722 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-234-2-0!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE POWER?
Message-ID: <192_9408041751@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:05:43 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > of course, i'm no expert ;'>

That's for *damn* sure.


From marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Sat Aug  6 10:41:00 EDT 1994
Article: 723 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!marc
From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Developing countries
Date: 4 Aug 1994 13:09:08 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31qp9k$49m@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone reading this work with renewable energy or rural development or any
related fields in developing countries???

Does anyone know of a newsgroup that deals with rural development in
developing countries???

Thanks
Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
Cape Town




From dwalli@mtu.edu Sat Aug  6 10:41:01 EDT 1994
Article: 724 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 4 Aug 1994 16:36:48 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <31rjh0$5dg@lilbuddy.hu>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lilbuddy.hu.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

ERNESTO GRUNDSETH (erg4@acpub.duke.edu) wrote: [in response to me]
[some stuff deleted] 
: 
: : Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: : gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: : (assumed from water).
: : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: : modules?
: Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
: the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
: per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
: hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
: So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
: meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
: get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
: not too good :(

But not too bad, either. And you don't have the waste products that 
other power sources produce. Did you know that the IC/gas engine in
most cars wastes around 85% of its power in waste heat? Most of
us are driving blast furnaces on wheels. 

: I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
: to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

Hunh?  First: what is "efficient"? 30%? 50%? 90%?  If you are only thinking
of the energy in->work out definition, I think you're missing some things.
We need to think about more than just that definition. If most of our re-
sources were infinite, and if we could auto-magically scrub the atmosphere
clean every week or so, and if good crops would grow each and every year on
bare rock, then we could go on thinking about simple definitions of 
efficiency. In our world, it's too complex for that.

: I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
: panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
: the silicon enviromental???? just wondering
: Ernesto Grundseth
: erg4@acpub.duke.edu
: converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!

I would be interested in knowing the answer to Ernesto's last question
as well. However, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison of
the environmental impact of manufacturing PV cells and, say, the impact
of manufacturing IC engines. (of course, this comparison would ignore the
already well-known impact of manufacturing the fuel that goes into petrol-
fired IC engines.)

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV Sat Aug  6 10:41:01 EDT 1994
Article: 725 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 5 Aug 1994 17:33:39 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <01HFJP7MUFWK9861HP@mr.sen.ca.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe



From erg4@acpub.duke.edu Sat Aug  6 10:41:02 EDT 1994
Article: 726 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!erg4
From: erg4@acpub.duke.edu (ERNESTO GRUNDSETH)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 5 Aug 1994 18:53:12 GMT
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <31u1qo$q87@news.duke.edu>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu> <31rjh0$5dg@lilbuddy.hu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: teer3.acpub.duke.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Donald J. Walli (dwalli@mtu.edu) wrote:
: ERNESTO GRUNDSETH (erg4@acpub.duke.edu) wrote: [in response to me]
: [some stuff deleted] 
: : 
: : : Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: : : gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: : : (assumed from water).
: : : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: : : modules?
: : Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
: : the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
: : per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
: : hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
: : So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
: : meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
: : get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
: : not too good :(

: But not too bad, either. And you don't have the waste products that 
: other power sources produce. Did you know that the IC/gas engine in
: most cars wastes around 85% of its power in waste heat? Most of
: us are driving blast furnaces on wheels. 
15 watts is good??? you need al least 15 hp to keep your car
you think 15 watts is good??? for a square meter of solar energy
you will need over 11000 watts to keep your car on the road (if you
don't accelerate (15 hp)). Which menas you need 756 square meters
of empty space to install the solar panels /per car(6804 sq. feet) or
about 0.17 acres. still not toooooo good. you have to consider
the cost of clearing the land, setting up the arrays, maintenance,
storms(whiich may destroy them), and pv panel don't run at 13-15%
efficient all day. I would be more efficient to store the electrical
energy in a battery or flywheel. My point is that hydrogen is not a
good media to store energy. 
I know IC/gas engines in cars about 15-20% efficient but if you take
into account the enviromental impactcost of setting up a pv array, electrolosis, and
the manufacturing cost of an hydrogen powered car, you might be polluting
the enviroment even more.   

: : I am not against electric crs or renewable energy. It just needs
: : to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

: Hunh?  First: what is "efficient"? 30%? 50%? 90%?  If you are only thinking
: of the energy in->work out definition, I think you're missing some things.
: We need to think about more than just that definition. If most of our re-
: sources were infinite, and if we could auto-magically scrub the atmosphere
: clean every week or so, and if good crops would grow each and every year on
: bare rock, then we could go on thinking about simple definitions of 
: efficiency. In our world, it's too complex for that.
So, you woul d set up a pv array-hydrogen system even if it was 0.1% efficient
and gave you no more than 11000 watts a day. ( plus you will have to
buy 1/5 of an acre and set it up w/ pv arrays, and do maintenance).
: : I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
: : panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
: : the silicon enviromental???? just wondering
: : Ernesto Grundseth
: : erg4@acpub.duke.edu
: : converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!

: I would be interested in knowing the answer to Ernesto's last question
: as well. However, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison of
: the environmental impact of manufacturing PV cells and, say, the impact
: of manufacturing IC engines. (of course, this comparison would ignore the
: already well-known impact of manufacturing the fuel that goes into petrol-
: fired IC engines.)

One of the processes to make silicon wastes 45% of it because the individual
cellls are cut from a slab of silicon. Another process uses toxic chemicals
to make strips of silicon ( no waste due to cutting) and are cut w/ lasers.
How enviromental will these manufacturing process be when they are upscaled
???
just a thought
: Don Walli
: dwalli@mtu.edu
: -- 
:     || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 |
Ernesto Grundseth
erg4@acpub.duke.edu



From latta@ace.acadiau.ca Sat Aug  6 10:41:03 EDT 1994
Article: 727 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!dragon.acadiau.ca!hsh218-3.acadiau.ca!latta
From: latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN LATTA)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca>
Lines: 36
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Nntp-Posting-Host: hsh218-3.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:21:03 GMT
Lines: 36
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
>From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
>Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT

>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

>Borje Persson 

I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling.  Nothing 
is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from one 
form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power company'
s transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power whether 
there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is used.  You 
are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company uses in its 
transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation.  Only the 
geometry is different.  



From litwack@dccs.upenn.edu Sat Aug  6 10:41:03 EDT 1994
Article: 728 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dccs.upenn.edu!litwack
From: litwack@dccs.upenn.edu (Mark Litwack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Date: 5 Aug 1994 18:03:57 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 18
Sender: litwack@scotty.dccs.upenn.edu (Mark Litwack)
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <31tuud$96f@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: scotty.dccs.upenn.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela) writes:
|> Hello all!
|> 
|> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
|> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used per
|> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Generac and Honda make some pretty good units.  It appears that the
more efficient units will do about 4200 (or more) watt-hours/gallon
(measured at 50% load) for that power class of generator.  The
efficiency curve is fairly flat above 50%, but drops off quickly for
less than 50% load.  (Moral: don't buy too big a unit if you don't
need it.)

So, a good 5000 watt generator should use about a gallon per hour
at full load.

-mark


From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:04 EDT 1994
Article: 729 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <Cu1K3H.HH1@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <30u8qa$9ul@news1.digex.net> <30vj8n$q4@nrel.nrel.gov> <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com> <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 02:54:52 GMT
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 


Yes , I agree . The silicon wafer itself will not 
degrade with time , just the metal contacts and 
encapsulation materials . The wafers can and should
be stripped and reused, not ground up unless they are
broken. The biggest cost of making the cells they are
broken. The biggest cost of PV is separating the silicon
from oxygen and other impurities from raw feed stock ,
quartz , to start off with . No sense doing this all
over again if it can be avoided. 


From ned.nisson@energy.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:04 EDT 1994
Article: 730 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!iat.holonet.net!energy!ned.nisson
From: ned.nisson@energy.com
Subject: HEAT PUMP WATER HEATERS
Message-ID: <9408051757.0P7YH00@energy.com>
Organization: Energy Design Online (212)662-0388
X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.08
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 94 17:57:11 
Lines: 12
Status: O
X-Status: 


I'm looking for information on experiences with specific brands
of heat pump water heaters.  This will be for a special report on
the topic.  Please respond via this newsgroup or email.
 
Also, anyone interested in this topic may want to sign on to our
BBS on energy-efficient construction, Energy Design Online
(212)662-0388.
 
Thanks.
Ned Nisson
ned.nisson@energy.com


From jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov Sat Aug  6 10:41:05 EDT 1994
Article: 731 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!csn!nrel!nrel!not-for-mail
From: jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov (Jeff Shapiro)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 3 Aug 1994 13:17:45 -0600
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <31oqgp$46e@nrel.nrel.gov>
References: <31m45k$it8@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nrel.nrel.gov
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
:      It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
: FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
: between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
: of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
: use.
Are you absolutely sure about this?  I was under the impression that is
was theft and that people had gotten in trouble for this when the power
company found out (them 'lectric companies are sneaky).

I would be suprised that this would be an area for the FCC since
the power lines are not there for communication.  


:      Anybody have any good design ideas? I have one of those massive
: transformer boxes in my front yard and would like to use it for something
: more useful than a cutting and painting worktable.

I believe this part is relatively easy.  Just make huge loops of wire in
your yard (increase the number and size of the loops until the voltage
is appropriate).  Then you just plug in (I think).  You would need
to know the field strength and loop size to findout how much power is 
available.  The closer you can get the loops to the source, the more
power you could get.  The one concern I would have is that I think the
current would be phase shifted and you may not be able to plug it straight
in with the normal electricity without conditioning it first.  

: Shadowfax

I'd really like to know if it is legal, I could make some money :)
Otherwise, I wouldn't try this at home unless you have a good
lawyer.

Jeff Shapiro


From dkulha@crl.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:06 EDT 1994
Article: 732 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Developing countries
Date: 6 Aug 1994 00:04:42 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 32
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408051618.A10825-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <31qp9k$49m@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 4 Aug 1994, Marc Loon wrote:

> Does anyone reading this work with renewable energy or rural development or any
> related fields in developing countries???
> 
> Does anyone know of a newsgroup that deals with rural development in
> developing countries???
> 
> Thanks
> Marc Loon
> Energy for Development Research Centre
> Cape Town
> 
     Hi Marc...
        I would humbly suggest that as this forum matures it will be a 
great place for this discussion. It is a topic that many of us are 
interested in and (as it pertains to energy and related off-grid 
lifestyle) interested in discussing. I've been assured that as time and 
technology permits some folks that have been dealing with rural 
electrification in developing countries will join us online as will folks 
pushing solar cooker technology. It's amazing what a little PV and a 
solar cooker can do to improve the lot of folks who've never been exposed 
to this can do. A very enabling use of technology. Recently we've posted 
info on rural electrification in Sri Lanka and solar cookers. The will be 
more of this forthcoming after I work out some technical wrinkles. I'll 
send you some info about our CDROM with much of this sort of info under 
seperate cover.....
    DCK




From averyj@eskimo.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:06 EDT 1994
Article: 733 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <Cu1Jqx.H37@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <CtsD4H.EFu@eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 02:47:20 GMT
Lines: 23
Status: O
X-Status: 

Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?

The application that I am involved in will have 60
2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the 
roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
WA state . 

That's 480 square feet of relatively expensive panels and
the customer is concerned about snow load . Right now the
design is to mount the panels on rails that are bolted to
the roof running the width of the modules , the 2 foot span.
The rails cross the 4 foot length of the modules at 1 foot 
and 3 feet.  The modules would be about 5 inches off of the roof . 

The roof is at an angle of about 15 degrees , fairly flat.

A snow fall of 20 - 30 feet would not be surprising at this 
location and it would probably pile up to this depth on top
of the modules.

? WILL THEY GET CRUNCHED ?

Do they need further bracing ? 


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:07 EDT 1994
Article: 734 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 5 Aug 1994 23:03:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 31
Sender: root@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca>, latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN
LATTA) writes:

"I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling. 
Nothing 
is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from
one 
form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power
company's transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power
whether there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is
used.  You are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company
uses in its transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation. 
Only the 
geometry is different.  "

     Yes, the process is pretty much identical to that used in a
transformer - and perhaps in a way it is stealing since energy can neither
be created nor destroyed. My question here is what would happen to this
radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and "harvest" it? It's
going to be out there anyhow - permeating the air, earth and everything
else. Perhaps the problem of EM pollution should be brough into play here
-
     Therefore - if you make a stink about someone "harvesting" or
"stealing" radiated EM field power from electric lines, shouldn't it be
the power company's responsibility to shield us from the potentially
dangerous form of radiation, thereby not only securing it's valuable
property but protecting the general public as well?

Shadowfax




From tim@panix.com Sat Aug  6 10:41:07 EDT 1994
Article: 735 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!panix!not-for-mail
From: tim@panix.com (Tim Mullen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 6 Aug 1994 01:05:45 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <31v5n9$k9j@panix3.panix.com>
References: <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca> <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

>In article <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca>, latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN
>LATTA) writes:

>"I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling. 
>Nothing 
>is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from
>one 
>form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power
>company's transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power
>whether there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is
>used.  You are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company
>uses in its transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation. 
>Only the 
>geometry is different.  "

>     Yes, the process is pretty much identical to that used in a
>transformer - and perhaps in a way it is stealing since energy can neither
>be created nor destroyed. My question here is what would happen to this
>radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and "harvest" it? It's
>going to be out there anyhow - permeating the air, earth and everything
>else. Perhaps the problem of EM pollution should be brough into play here
>-
>     Therefore - if you make a stink about someone "harvesting" or
>"stealing" radiated EM field power from electric lines, shouldn't it be
>the power company's responsibility to shield us from the potentially
>dangerous form of radiation, thereby not only securing it's valuable
>property but protecting the general public as well?

>Shadowfax


   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
"child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?




-- 
                                                Tim Mullen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I in your basement?  ALWAYS looking for antique televisions, fans, etc.
--------------------------------call anytime: (212)-463-0552 -------------


From Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:41:08 EDT 1994
Article: 736 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Dave.Willey
From: Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dave Willey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nuke, ETC.
Message-ID: <dab_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 22:53:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 99
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 23 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:
 
>My  reaction  to  potential  energy  alternatives  is,  in fact, one of
>interest.  I would love to power  my  home  with  solar,  or  wind,  or
>geothermal  energy.  Unfortunately, like most of our population, I live
>in an urban area with only tree acres of land, in a  densely  populated
>part of the country.  'Renewable power', sure, show me and I'll listen.
>However, please don't feed me nonsense, because I will  check  out  the
>numbers myself, and having an education both in science and technology,
>I am qualified to do so.
 
Hi Harry (and everyone else reading this...),
 
     Show  you? You want to check out "numbers"? OK, I'll try and cut to
the chase:
 
     I  started  messing  around  with solar for a very different reason
than most people.  I live in a city of 125,000 in a standard residential
neighborhood,  on  a  small  odd  shaped  lot w a number of trees on and
around the property. Turns out the trees  nicely  hide  my  panels  from
prying  eyes.  You  can't  see  them  from  the  road or from any of the
neighbor's yards, yet I still have excellent exposure to  the  sun  from
the south.
 
     I  also  am  a  ham  radio  operator.  My emphasis since getting my
license has been "civil-defense" type of work, i.e.  I'm  a  RACES/AREAS
member  and  registered  radio  operator  for  the  office  of emergency
services, County of Sonoma in Calif.  I wanted to  be  able  to  provide
emergency  communications during a major disaster, hence the need for my
own stand alone power supply "off the grid".  Look  at  most  (not  all)
areas  that  have  had a major disaster and the power/communication grid
gets effected in some way, if not wiped out  entirely.   We  (the  local
hams)  have  bailed  out  the city/county on several occasions when they
lost  communications,  not to mention handling secondary traffic for the
Red Cross (known as "Health and Welfare" traffic), etc. That is what got
me started down this path.
 
     Since  I  started  this project, The alt. energy side of things has
turned into a very satisfying hobby in  of  itself.   I've  expanded  my
system  so  far  to  include  4  Siemens M-75 PV's, 570+ amphour battery
packs, Powerstar 700 watt and a 200 watt "clone" power  inverter,  Trace
C-90  PV regulator SCI/CRUSE metering.  Now it's to the point that I can
run  most of the house lighting, as well as the stereo, TV, VCR, and the
ham radios if I remember to turn things off when I leave  a  room  so  I
don't  run  the  batteries  down.   :)  Major power hogs such as heater,
washer/dryers, and refers are still on grid as I'm just now  coming  off
disability  and haven't been able to afford a full rack upgrade of (qty.
12) 12V PV panels, new batteries, and a Sunfrost refer...yet.. Hopefully
in  the  next  two to five years or so I can finish expanding. Yes it is
indeed possible for us urbanites to have alt. energy.  I  designed  this
system and I built it using available parts myself.  It isn't cheap, but
it is satisfying and very real.  Please tell us  about  your  real  life
alt. energy system using homespun nuke.......
 
On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover continues:
 
>As the population wakes up to the real cost of fossil fuels in terms of
>environmental destruction, what are today's  nightmare  concerns  about
>nukes  will  shrink.  In  comparison any combustion base energy source,
>nuclear will emerge as both  benign  and  environment  friendly.   With
>continuing  improvement  in  reactor  technology, nuclear will not only
>provided  clean,  easily  distributed,  cost-effective  energy,  and  a
>potentially renewable energy resource.
 
     Some day in the (very) distant future, humans may be able to safely
harness the atom.  But for right now we (on  the  FIDO  side  of  things
anyway) were for the most part talking about "the little guy" making his
own power from what (s)he can  buy/scrounge/invent  for  themselves  for
their own use, using real (today) technology.
 
     It  appears  from  what I've seen rolling across my screen from the
usenet side of the pond, (and excuse me if I get this wrong) that  their
emphasis  is  on  somewhat more of a small grid type setup/"when science
develops this new breakthrough idea" into a  viable  product.   Maybe  I
missed  something  somewhere,  (hasn't been the first time) but it seems
that we (humans) are are a ways off from making our own  nuke  power  in
our back yard.
 
     Seems like this whole area of nuke vs non-nuke is due to a "growing
pain" in the merging of two groups into one, who have a similar interest
in a topic, but approach it from a different angle. Hopefully BOTH SIDES
can use some restraint as we go through this time of adjustment.  Harry,
I  may  or  may  not support your ideas on nukes (and I don't), but I'll
listen to your or anyone else's argument as long as they can give  me  a
logical,  scientific, NON-EMOTIONAL/non-flaming argument for their side,
backed up w/ real life examples and/or  cite  references  from  credible
sources.   In  other  words let's (all of us including myself) not point
fingers and scream and holler, but to try to talk together. You may have
a  point  I  hadn't thought of.  If so I'd like to hear it. I sure don't
have all the answers. You  can't  make  it  if  you  leave  on  such  an
emotional  note  of "(insert name here) isn't playing fair, so I'm never
coming back to play with you, I'm going home".
 
     So  what  IS  the  usenet's  mission  statement?  (for  comparative
purposes.) With the melting of two groups into one, do we now have a new
mission  statement?  (I like Alt. Energy's m/s that Don posted, but then
again, I haven't seen any others......)
 
      Dave Willey - KD6KWM


From Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug  6 10:41:09 EDT 1994
Article: 737 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Michael.Welch
From: Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <dac_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Aug 94 22:51:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Cloyce,

I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself, although
they are not yet installed.

As far as I know, all ni-fe batteries have a nominal voltage of 1.2
volts per cell, just like other alkaline batteries (ni-cad), which
requires 10 to make a 12 v battery. It is my understanding that they
have a slightly higher self-discharge rate than nicads, but work pretty
much the same.  The biggest advantage of ni-fe, is their lack of
toxicity when compared to nicad !!NO CADMIUM!!

These batteries can be easily refurbished.  Check out back issues of
Home Power Magazine for methods of refurbishing, if your batteries need
it.

You most likely have a GREAT set of batteries there.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Home Power Renewable Energy BBS (707)822-8640


From Ken.Bridges@p5.f802.n325.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:09 EDT 1994
Article: 738 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-325-802-5!Ken.Bridges
From: Ken.Bridges@p5.f802.n325.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Bridges)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <db2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 11:21:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Solar Point, Solar Powered! East Haven, Vermont
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Allen J. Filson wrote in a message to All:


AJF> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as
AJF> opposed to the  "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a
AJF> difference between the two but is it  great enough to worry
AJF> about?

      Look at a map of Magnett declinations, here in Vermont when my compass
reads 16 degrees west its then pointing at true north. So here there is enough
difference to make it matter. Many solar supply catalouges have this kind of
info. You could also check out nautical maps as they should provide this info.
If you live near the cost call the coast guard :) theyll know.
			  Ken


From Jim.Overstreet@p5.f1.n396.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:10 EDT 1994
Article: 739 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-396-1-5!Jim.Overstreet
From: Jim.Overstreet@p5.f1.n396.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Overstreet)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Shortwave Frequency...
Message-ID: <dc2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 13:45:34 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Esc1.70 - From the Southport Point
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Marc Visconte
Status: O
X-Status: 

Marc Visconte wrote in a message to Jim Overstreet:

MV> What is the freq for RFA?  Anyone out there have any OTHER

Hi Marc: Sorry for the belated response, but I was called out of
the country on business and just got in.  The frequency for
RFA is 15.715 Mhz Days and 5.810 Mhz nights.  They are on from
3 - 6 pm EDT and from 10 - 12 pm EDT.  They are also heard on over
200 daytimers, affiliated with SUN network.  If you have a
satellite dish, they are heard on Satcom 1, 137 deg West, 
Transponder 15, Audio 7.56. 

 I think BBC and most of the other
shortwave broadcasters also have energy/science related programs
on a weekly basis.  Radio Australia's is good too.  The publication
Monitoring Times carries a complete listing each month of ALL
English language shortwave programming, with listings keyed by
UTC. (Monitoring Times, PO Box 98, 300 S. Highway 64 West,
Brasstown, NC 28902-0098).  I always carry a copy with me when
out of country (about half the year) and a small shortwave, and
never listen to domestic radio/tv anymore.  


From Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:10 EDT 1994
Article: 740 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-106-941-0!Terry.goode
From: Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Terry goode)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TCA: Renewables in Texas
Message-ID: <dc5_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 16:53:26 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: THE GOLDEN COCO'S OTHER COMPUTER
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bob Kerstetter
Status: O
X-Status: 


 DC> manufacture photovoltaic systems in Houston, Dallas and other
 BK> parts
Care to give a name and ph? for houston as i live there..
terry g.


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:11 EDT 1994
Article: 741 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2601-553-0!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisl
Message-ID: <dc7_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:13:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK>We operate under the concept
DK>that the only nuke we'll ever need is convieniently 93 million miles away.

        Doesn't that leave out water power, wind, tieds,
ect?   And what about if some thing new comes along, say a
working kitchen table top Cold Fusion unit?


From Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:11 EDT 1994
Article: 742 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-9115-0!Jim.Fitzsimmons
From: Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: sunSITE.unc.edu
Message-ID: <dd1_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 09:47:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Blue Moon BBS (Zulu Hours Only)
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello,
 I had saved a message that refered to Homepwr having a place on the internet
at the site "sunSITE.unc.edu" I FTP'ed to that site the other day and did not
find the root directory called
Pub/academic/enviromental/alternative-energy/energy-resources/more typing .....
 Can anyone confirm that site as being the one for the Hompower magazine?
Thanks for any assistance..oao


From Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:12 EDT 1994
Article: 743 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-100-255-0!Jack.Brannan
From: Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org (Jack Brannan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RENEWABLES
Message-ID: <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 01:51:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Invest Quest, St Louis,Mo 314-644-6747
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
done in a practical way?


... TAGS.LIS
--- Via Silver Xpress V3.02


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:13 EDT 1994
Article: 744 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <de1_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 16:40:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DAVE PAXTON
Status: O
X-Status: 

DP> EG>DK> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in
  > the
  > EG>  > boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is
  > use
  > EG>  > hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

DP> EG>Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

DP> EG>Also you can then buy fuel w/o the hhighway tax added on.

DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage ifsealed properly. Gas goes
  > stale in a few months time.

good point!

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * The harder I work, the harder I pray, the luckier I get.


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:13 EDT 1994
Article: 745 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Energy Economics
Message-ID: <df4_9408052219@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Jul 94 05:16:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Stan Bischof
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stan Bischof told All regarding Re: Hydrogen Vehicles :

SB>Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just 
SB>that it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great 
SB>deals!

I think you should get up to speed with the state of the art in wind and 
solar energy technologies.  The economics of these technologies are 
increasingly challenging the conventional energy sources on their own 
terms.

In particular you should take a look at Kenetech (formerly U.S. Windpower) 
which is producing a "nickel" (5 cents/kWh) machine for moderate wind 
regimes like the Great Plains.

Also a look at the work of Amory Lovins and the case studies in the 
magazine _Home Power_ (which can be found at Barnes and Noble's mag rack 
and probably others) might give you a different perspective on all this.

The times, they are a changin'


---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * Dogs come when you call. Cats have answering machines.


From John.Thompson@f120.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug  6 10:41:14 EDT 1994
Article: 746 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-120-0!John.Thompson
From: John.Thompson@f120.n369.z1.fidonet.org (John Thompson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <3e2_9407312205@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 03:50:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Bashful Pervert BBS  (305) 472-7715  28800 V.32bis
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Doug Hoffman
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Ian Woofenden to Doug Hoffman <=-

 IW> On (11 Jul 94) Doug Hoffman wrote to All...

 DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
 DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
 DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
 DH> gasoline, etc?



    I was just out at a job today, and what do I see but a
    Colman generator 12hp (The green ones) hooked up to
    a propane tank from a gas grill.
    The carburator looked like it was the stock unit with
    very little modification.
    I totaly forgot to ask the homeowner about it though..sorry
                                      John T.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu Sat Aug  6 10:41:15 EDT 1994
Article: 747 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!dolphin.upenn.edu!clarker
From: clarker@dolphin.upenn.edu (Roland R Clarke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 6 Aug 1994 11:57:38 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31vtri$sdr@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dolphin.upenn.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:

>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.

>Borje Persson 

Interesting ... but a few questions

a)  In general are the amps high or low ?
b)  What calculation methods are appropriate here ?
c)  Why is a voltage regulator necessary ?

With thanks
Roland



From london@sunSITE.unc.edu Sat Aug  6 10:45:57 EDT 1994
Article: 748 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london
From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: sunSITE.unc.edu
Date: 6 Aug 1994 14:46:46 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3207om$elm@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>
References: <dd1_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dd1_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Jim Fitzsimmons <Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

>I had saved a message that refered to Homepwr having a place on the internet
>at the site "sunSITE.unc.edu" I FTP'ed to that site the other day and did not
>find the root directory called
>Pub/academic/enviromental/alternative-energy/energy-resources/more typing .....

Try:

pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources

> Can anyone confirm that site as being the one for the Hompower magazine?
It is.

_______________________
Lawrence F. London, Jr. 
london@sunSITE.unc.edu 
Chapel Hill NC USA
919-932-1416  
FidoNet: 1:151/502  
Venaura Farm
-----------------------




From hatunen@netcom.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:35 EDT 1994
Article: 749 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Energy Economics
Message-ID: <hatunenCu4u5A.A9F@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <df4_9408052219@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 1994 21:24:46 GMT
Lines: 38
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <df4_9408052219@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Dennis Keim <Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>Stan Bischof told All regarding Re: Hydrogen Vehicles :
>
>SB>Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with solar- just 
>SB>that it's easy to ignore economics when presented with seemingly great 
>SB>deals!
>
>I think you should get up to speed with the state of the art in wind and 
>solar energy technologies.  The economics of these technologies are 
>increasingly challenging the conventional energy sources on their own 
>terms.
>
>In particular you should take a look at Kenetech (formerly U.S. Windpower) 
>which is producing a "nickel" (5 cents/kWh) machine for moderate wind 
>regimes like the Great Plains.

Just what is that cost based on? There must be assumptions built in,
such as capital cost of the equipment and amortization, and percentage
of available wind for producing the power.

>Also a look at the work of Amory Lovins and the case studies in the 
>magazine _Home Power_ (which can be found at Barnes and Noble's mag rack 
>and probably others) might give you a different perspective on all this.
>
>The times, they are a changin'

The giant wind farms at Altamont and Tehachapi in California are
finding it difficult to be profitable in an area where residential
power rates are as much as $0.13/kwh without the now-expired tax
subsidies. It would be interesting to know more about this "nickle a
kwh" power equipment, other than advertising hype.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From hatunen@netcom.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:37 EDT 1994
Article: 750 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca> <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 1994 21:28:14 GMT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca>, latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN
>LATTA) writes:
>
>"I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling. 
>Nothing 
>is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from
>one 
>form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power
>company's transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power
>whether there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is
>used.  You are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company
>uses in its transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation. 
>Only the 
>geometry is different.  "
>
>     Yes, the process is pretty much identical to that used in a
>transformer - and perhaps in a way it is stealing since energy can neither
>be created nor destroyed. My question here is what would happen to this
>radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and "harvest" it? It's
>going to be out there anyhow - permeating the air, earth and everything
>else. Perhaps the problem of EM pollution should be brough into play here

I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. That emf field is part of the
power being transmitted, and coupling to it actually does lessen the
amount being carried further on. it is not in any sense wasted or free
surplus or anything like that.

>     Therefore - if you make a stink about someone "harvesting" or
>"stealing" radiated EM field power from electric lines, shouldn't it be
>the power company's responsibility to shield us from the potentially
>dangerous form of radiation, thereby not only securing it's valuable
>property but protecting the general public as well?

You need to know more electrical engineering.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:38 EDT 1994
Article: 751 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 6 Aug 1994 22:32:18 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408061559.A6646-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Cu1Jqx.H37@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 5 Aug 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?
> 
> The application that I am involved in will have 60
> 2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the 
> roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
> WA state . 
> 
> That's 480 square feet of relatively expensive panels and
> the customer is concerned about snow load....

     I'd be concerned about snow loads too. I have no real idea about 
whether they'll survive though I would reccomend putting the PV's up on a 
couple poles and angle them properly. This would eliminate the snowload, 
keep thieves away from them and let them make power as opposed to being 
buried under snow. At this location for a fixed array the proper angle is 
about 47 degrees for the maximum output (which would also make the snow 
fall off as well. The improved ventilation would also improve the power 
output come summer as well. I would seperate each panel from it's 
nieghbor by 4-5 inches as well......DCK




From hatunen@netcom.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:39 EDT 1994
Article: 752 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: RENEWABLES
Message-ID: <hatunenCu4zEo.I5F@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 1994 23:18:24 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Jack Brannan <Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
>the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
>deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
>two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
>as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
>comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
>done in a practical way?

I have heard that this approach has a problem: The heat conductivity of
rocks is fairly low, as is any permeability for any hot water in teh
rocks. As a result, after a period of time, the extraction of the heat
quite literally begins to lower the temperature of the surrounding
rocks, and effectiveness begins to decline. In other words, all that
water starts to cool it down.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From averyj@eskimo.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:40 EDT 1994
Article: 753 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 7 Aug 1994 00:23:44 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408061710.A23215-0100000@eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408061559.A6646-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

The roof mount design may be a done deal where possible 
improvement would consist of increased support underneath
the modules . Do they need it is the question that the user
is asking . Remember , the module frames are supported at
1 and 3 feet along their 4 foot lengths on rails underneath.

Putting a 480 square foot array up on poles at 47 degrees might
get them into a bigger problem , wind load . Thats quite a kite.
Winds over 100 mph are not unusual in this area on occasion. 



From corridon@sccsi.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:41 EDT 1994
Article: 754 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!nuchat!usenet
From: corridon@sccsi.com (Kevin L. Corridon)
Subject: Re: NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid, Lithium cells comparison
Message-ID: <1994Aug7.004226.15771@nuchat.sccsi.com>
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.1@gollem.sccsi.com
Lines: 31
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[5030]
Nntp-Posting-Host: gollem.sccsi.com
Organization: Smiling Kitty Farm
References:  <Ctv7qx.DC1@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 00:42:26 GMT
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Ctv7qx.DC1@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind) writes:

> Hi,
> Can anyone give me some leads as to where to find a comparison of the four leading rechargeable battery technologies NiCd, NiMH, Lead Acid and Lithium with respect to parameters such aas charge time, discharge time, memory effects, peak power, capacy
> at various current levels, internal impedance, size etc.
> 
> If there is a FAQ about this please let me know.
> 
> This info is needed for a research project I am doing in school and I need the info in a couple of days.
> 
> Please post or mail to baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
> 
> Thanks
> Bhaskar

Find yourself some back issues of Home Power Magazine. Look at:
sunSITE.unc.edu directory
pub/academic/enviroment/alternative-energy/energy-resources/
or something like that...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
© 1994 Kevin L. Corridon                 *  "I may be an idiot, 
corridon@sccsi.com                       *  but I'm no fool."  
cognitive dissident                      *  Monty Python's
I am what I am, I've done what I've done *  Flying Circus
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From dkulha@crl.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:42 EDT 1994
Article: 755 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 7 Aug 1994 01:30:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 20
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408061838.A13567-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408061710.A23215-0100000@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sat, 6 Aug 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> The roof mount design may be a done deal where possible 
> improvement would consist of increased support underneath
> the modules . Do they need it is the question that the user
> is asking . Remember , the module frames are supported at
> 1 and 3 feet along their 4 foot lengths on rails underneath.
> 
> Putting a 480 square foot array up on poles at 47 degrees might
> get them into a bigger problem , wind load . Thats quite a kite.
> Winds over 100 mph are not unusual in this area on occasion. 
> 
     Very true (and part of the reason for reccomending some separation 
between the panels, windload and summer cooling). I have seen lots of PV 
installations but I think it's imperative you contact the manufacturer 
for the final word on the subject....DCK




From averyj@eskimo.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:43 EDT 1994
Article: 756 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 7 Aug 1994 01:53:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 4
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408061821.A1165-0100000@eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.3.87.9408061838.A13567-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Do you know any e-mail addresses at Solarex , or Seimens
Solar for that matter ? I would love to connect with them
on line. I have searched a bit on Internet and have not
been successful finding these company names.


From Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:44 EDT 1994
Article: 757 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Richard.Russell
From: Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Richard Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisl
Message-ID: <a69_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Jul 94 22:24:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bob Paddock
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Re: Electric Cars legisl
 
>         I find this attitude annoying.  It is far easier to
> 'scrub' one big source of pollution at one single point.  Or
>         Based on this information will some one tell me how
> this Coal Burning Powerplant thing keeps being a reason not
> to switch to EVs?

Good points but I wonder why I've not seen much on gas/electric hybrids,
which seems like a logical step. I have a set of plans from 1979 that give a
detailed account of changeing to an electric car that is powered by a small
gas-engined generator. Untill there is much more effecient power storage
you'll need to generate you energy on board for a vehicle. Now with a much
smaller effecient combustion engine the possibilities for alcohol, hydrogen,
methane, etc. become much more realistic. Anyone know of any work being done
in this area. I know one of the problems of this type design is weight and
was wondering if this technology could be adapted to small aircraft. Any
thoughts would be appreciated

rr


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:45 EDT 1994
Article: 758 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <a70_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 18:55:16 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 


 MW> As far as I know, all ni-fe batteries have a nominal voltage of 1.2
 MW> volts per cell, just like other alkaline batteries (ni-cad), which
 MW> requires 10 to make a 12 v battery. It is my understanding that they
 MW> have a slightly higher self-discharge rate than nicads, but work pretty
 MW> much the same.  The biggest advantage of ni-fe, is their lack of
 MW> toxicity when compared to nicad !!NO CADMIUM!!

Thanks, Michael.  You mentioned that NiFe is similar to nicad.  Do they suffer
from the same "memory" idiosyncrasy?

 MW> These batteries can be easily refurbished.  Check out back issues of
 MW> Home Power Magazine for methods of refurbishing, if your batteries need
 MW> it.

Guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy that CD-ROM that Don was talking
about.  Now if I could only find the address! (Whadda you bet I receive the
address post-haste? :-))

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:46 EDT 1994
Article: 759 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2601-553-0!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <a72_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 12:58:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Andy Dingley
Status: O
X-Status: 

AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, to deal
with
AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.

AD>What can you do with the gas from such a digester ? Has anyone used it for
AD>running a generator ? Water & space heating ?  How "clean" is the gas, in
AD>terms of burner clogging ?

        See if you can find a copy of the book "Producing
Your Own Power: How to Make Nature's Energy Sources Work for
You." ISBN 0-394-71440-7 by Carol Hupping Stoner.  See Part
IV - Methane Power/Methane Gas Digesters for Fuel and
Fertilizer.


From Dave.Skinner@f711.n105.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:47 EDT 1994
Article: 760 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-711-0!Dave.Skinner
From: Dave.Skinner@f711.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Skinner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <a75_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 01:43:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: /\Oregon Desert/\(503)475-3056(v32b)/\
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kuhla
Status: O
X-Status: 

Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used to be a pretty
friendly place with folks describing what they might want to do or try.  Lately
its a lot like sci.energy with folks constantly trying to pick a fight.<sigh> 
Bigger is not always better.  I'm sure that anyone who wants one can find a
sci.energy feed.  Heck, I'll put it on hold for anyone who wants it (hayes 28.8
on the nodelisted number).


From Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:49 EDT 1994
Article: 761 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-374-1-0!Julie.Seberry
From: Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Julie Seberry)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: IDEAS FOR WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <a79_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 03:54:23 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Techtalk BBS, Cocoa, FL 407-635-8833
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi. I need to earn at least just a small amount of money at home. Has anyone
got any new ideas, besides babysitting, which I now do. I like it, but I would
like to do something with more flexible hours, perhaps at night after all my
kids are asleep. ANY ideas would be welcome. Thanks. Julie Seberry.


From Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:25:50 EDT 1994
Article: 762 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-249-121-3!Gordon.Campbell
From: Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org (Gordon Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <a7f_9408061721@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 19:38:54 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: An 18% Grey Point - Kingston, ON, Canada
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (01 Aug 94) Michael Welch wrote to Cloyce Osborn...

 MW> Hi Cloyce,

 MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself, although
 MW> they are not yet installed.

Where would one obtain these beauties?

... Fix the problem, not the blame.


From bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au Mon Aug  8 12:25:51 EDT 1994
Article: 763 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Bill Parker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 7 Aug 1994 09:44:29 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 16
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408071732.aa16571@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

Various people have been commenting on problems with snow and PVs.

Well, we don't a terrific amount of snow where I live, maybe one frost
every ten years or so. But so what you say....

Well as a newcomer to Internet and all the useful things it can do, one
thing that can help greatly in the subject heading is a bit more precision.
"SOL" and "SOLAR" give no clue as to the snow story. It's not that I don't
to find out what folks in Alaska do but, there just ain't the time to wade
through heaps of messages headers that give no clues. I'm now beginning to
ditch stuff unread.

"Don't give up the day job"
(Dr) Bill Parker  - Fax & Phone +619 328 3804
Box 175 North Perth Western Australia 6006



From Datnoid@aol.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:53 EDT 1994
Article: 764 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Datnoid@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Date: 7 Aug 1994 16:00:18 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408071155.tn743736@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

<Thanks, Michael.  You mentioned that NiFe is similar to nicad.  <Do they
sufferfrom the same "memory" idiosyncrasy?
The Nicads refered to are pocket plate nicads which do not exhibit the
"memory effect" that sintered nicads suffer from when not properly discharged
and then fully recharged.
Pocket plate nicads can be partially recharged/discharged and left in that
state for years without any effect on them.  I own a nicad battery bank
consisting of 462 Ah @ 12vdc and love them!



From pburgess@netcom.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:54 EDT 1994
Article: 765 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!pburgess
From: pburgess@netcom.com (Phillip Burgess)
Subject: Re: SOL
Message-ID: <pburgessCu6Eyv.IuC@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <9408071732.aa16571@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 17:52:07 GMT
Lines: 8
Status: O
X-Status: 

bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Bill Parker) writes:

>"SOL" and "SOLAR" give no clue as to the snow story.

Funny - I thought it was a thread about someone being S**t Outta Luck.

-- 
    Phillip Burgess (pburgess@netcom.com)                            >belch<


From kowens@teleport.com Mon Aug  8 12:25:54 EDT 1994
Article: 766 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!news.teleport.com!news.teleport.com!not-for-mail
From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Best charge controller?
Date: 7 Aug 1994 13:08:43 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <F2HHkS9cpsq4069yn@teleport.com>
References: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com>,
gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz) wrote:
> What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.
> 
> I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.
> 

Best may dependend upon your setup, but I have had good results
from Enermaxer.  It has been going for a few years and handles
just about any configuration.

-- 
kowens@teleport.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81)


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Mon Aug  8 12:25:55 EDT 1994
Article: 767 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: The info-highway as renewable energy.
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.776095359@ncratl>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 14:02:39 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 23
Status: O
X-Status: 

The info-highway presents us with an opportunity to solve the commuting
problem without spending billions on more roads or mass transit systems.

The info-highway presents many workers with the opportunity to spend at least
several days a week working from their homes.

As computers and "knowledge" industries become more common place, the
percentage of workers who can work from their homes increases.

INO, many workers who can work from their home already, do not do so because
of ignorance. Both theirs and their boss's.

I'm evangelizing on this subject precisely because I want more people to
know that this option is available.

I am afraid that our government may once again be about to spend 100's of
billions of dollars, solving will probably turn out to be yesterdays
problem.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:25:56 EDT 1994
Article: 768 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Message-ID: <259_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 14:41:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 


 
 
No opposing viewpoints?  Surely this can't be taken seriously.  While far from
a nuke fan myself I must support Harry and his right to propose alternatives. 
As he says, isn't a free and open exchange of ideas what it's all about?
 


From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:25:57 EDT 1994
Article: 769 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: MAZDA WATER ENGINE?
Message-ID: <25a_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 14:47:36 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually 
 > has 
 > such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
 > hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't 
 > exactly 
 > water powered but related to such.....

Okay, a "water" powered Mazda.  I can dig it.  But how do they get the hydrogen
out of the water without expending more energy doing so than the resulting
hydrogen contains?
 


From Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:25:58 EDT 1994
Article: 770 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Tom.Lent
From: Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tom Lent)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS
Message-ID: <25b_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 15:32:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dean Kuusela
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you have the
option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil fuel nasties and
cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is generally safer to handle).


From Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:25:59 EDT 1994
Article: 771 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Tom.Lent
From: Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tom Lent)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: MAZDA WATER ENGINE?
Message-ID: <25c_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 15:38:47 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

There is no free lunch. The hydrogen is just a storage device for energy - a
very clean one at that. yes it takes more energy to create the hyrdrogen than
you get out of it, just like it takes more energy to charge a battery than you
get out of it. Possible advantages include, higher energy density (more miles
per pound), quicker refueling, higher acceleration, etc.


From Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:00 EDT 1994
Article: 772 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Tom.Lent
From: Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tom Lent)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Message-ID: <25d_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 15:46:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have to agree with Dick. Although I think Harry is sadly off base in his
dreamy hopes that someday somewhere someone will come up with affordable safe
nuclear power (c'mon Harry, it is time to stop throwing good money after bad),
I strongly object to squelching his attempts to talk. If you don't want to
listen, pass his statements over and move on to stuff you do want to read. 
 
It is a dangerous world when we start deciding who can talk and who can't.


From jbvb@elf.com Mon Aug  8 12:26:01 EDT 1994
Article: 773 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James Van Bokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 8 Aug 1994 02:15:41 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3244gd$83f@usenet.elf.com>
References: <Cu1Jqx.H37@eskimo.com> <Pine.3.87.9408061559.A6646-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:



>On Fri, 5 Aug 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

>> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?
>> ...
>> the customer is concerned about snow load....

> <<suggestion for a pole mount, which I agree with, deleted>>
>.... At this location for a fixed array the proper angle is 
>about 47 degrees for the maximum output (which would also make the snow 
>fall off as well....

My PV array is angled about 50 degrees, 6" above the steep part of a
gambrel barn roof, and I cleared it probably a dozen times last
winter (S.E. Cow Hampshire).  Some of therse weren't strictly
necessary, as the sun would have melted it clear before noon anyway,
but I was grubbing for Watts.  There were a couple of storms where the
snow fell in a near calm either slightly wet, or after freezing rain,
and this didn't slide off.  One storm put about 8" on the panels, and
if I hadn't cleared, it might have lasted until the next thaw.

Unless the Cascade climate includes thaws with clockwork regularity,
you might find yourself missing significant kWH when the array is
covered.  One possible solution is to build a hinge & spring into the
middle of the pole-mounted array, so that if snow accumulates enough
to overcome the spring force, the array droops down on either side of
the post, sheds the snow (or most of it, anyway), and then springs back
into position.

jbvb



From chuthlu@netcom.com Mon Aug  8 12:26:01 EDT 1994
Article: 774 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!chuthlu
From: chuthlu@netcom.com (Galen Jang)
Subject: Re: RENEWABLES
Message-ID: <chuthluCu788q.IHA@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 04:24:26 GMT
Lines: 26
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jack Brannan (Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
: the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
: deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
: two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
: as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
: comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
: done in a practical way?


  There's an article in Scientific America a couple years ago.  I can't
find the magazine right now.  It's buried somewhere so this is from
memory.
  There's a decade long research project exploring this possibility in
either Los Alamo or Sandia Laboratory, I am not sure which.  However,
the project was cancelled by a budget cut.  The good thing about this
idea is that the equipment needed can be adapted directly from oil
drilling equipments.  Further researches are needed to see whether
the technology can be made economically competitive.  Too bad we won't
be able to find now.

-- 
    Galen Jang
    Chuthlu@netcom.com
***********************************************
  We all know that your theory is crazy, the
question is whether your theory is crazy enough to be true.

-Wolfgang Pauli


From dkulha@crl.com Mon Aug  8 12:26:02 EDT 1994
Article: 775 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOL
Date: 8 Aug 1994 04:50:49 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408072150.A19541-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408061821.A1165-0100000@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sat, 6 Aug 1994, Jim Avery wrote:

> Do you know any e-mail addresses at Solarex , or Seimens
> Solar for that matter ? I would love to connect with them
> on line. I have searched a bit on Internet and have not
> been successful finding these company names.
> 
     Sorry, I'm no help there. I spoke to Richard Perez a few days ago 
and a reccomendation was made that Home Power suggest t their writers and 
advertisers that they include their email address in articles and ads. It 
will likely take a bit for folks to get on the bandwagon but I'm still 
working on cyber-izing renewable energy networking....
    DCK




From Jens.Hoffman@f186.n343.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:03 EDT 1994
Article: 776 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-186-0!Jens.Hoffman
From: Jens.Hoffman@f186.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Jens Hoffman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: GAS SAVING TECHNOLOGIES
Message-ID: <a90_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 19:01:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: CyberQuest - Seattle, WA
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Available Positions

Gas Saver Technologies -- Independent Leasing Agent

         Gas Saver Technologies need independent representatives
to help lease (or sell) our  patented gas saving and emission
reduction technologies to commercial trucking & bus companies,
government agencies and other high-mile vehicle fleets.
        Our products are guarenteed to increase gas mileage by a
minimum of 10 --15 %, and come with a written money-back
guarantee. Our products drastically reduce emissions and increase
engine-bearing life by up to 700%.
        We need motivated self-starters to develop this huge
untapped  market with no competition.  Requirements:  sales and
equipment leasing experience a plus but not necessary, ability to
work independently,  and an entrepreneurial mind with a vision for a
better environment.  Also, excellent communication skills to convey
the benefits of our products to executive decision makers.
        3 K -- 10 K plus per month commissions possible, as well as
long term residuals and performance bonuses.
        If you are not afraid to work on a commission & performance
basis and are interested in this opportunity, please >FAX OR MAIL<
your resume to Mr. Jens Hoffmann at GAS SAVER
TECHNOLOGIES, 401 NE 40th St., Suite 304, Seattle, WA 98105,
fax: 206-547-8675 (* 51)


From Cara.'Glorified.Version.of.a.Pelica@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:04 EDT 1994
Article: 777 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Cara.'Glorified.Version.of.a.Pelica
From: Cara.'Glorified.Version.of.a.Pelica@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Cara 'Glorified Version of a Pelica)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar In Sarasota
Message-ID: <a92_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 22:33:38 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, V
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cocking@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Cara 'Glorified Version of a Pelican' Cocking)
Date: 28 Jul 94 17:33:38 GMT

mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:
>     I'm curious to see if there are any other people out there who might
>be Florida residents generating their own power through solar/AE.

 I live in southern Florida (Boca Raton) and we have solar panels on our
 roof that heat our water.  I know there are others in our area who use
 solar power to heat their water.
 
 We also used to heat our pool with the sun.  For this we had lots of
 black hose coiled up on our roof so the water got heated as it ran
 through the tubes.  We had to get rid of our pool heater when we redid
 the roof because the tubes were dry and cracked when we moved them.

Cara


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:05 EDT 1994
Article: 778 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <a93_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 00:39:03 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 28 Jul 94 19:39:03 GMT

In article <CtM2uA.7o8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan
Bischof) writes:

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
: are getting is coming from the pro-nuclear groups. Not an unwarranted
: argument, just not one we're interested in. Nuclear IS NOT NOR WILL EVER
: BE and alternative energy source (keyword highlighted).
:            ^^^^^^^^

>OK I'll bite--
>
>   (1) who are "we"  (please don't speak for me, I have my own opinions
>                    /agenda/preferences/identity)

     "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 


  > (2) what is "alternative"? 

     What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
mainstream (yet).


Shadowfax


From Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:06 EDT 1994
Article: 779 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jack.Coats
From: Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jack Coats)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Message-ID: <a94_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 19:58:08 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Amoco Corportation
Lines: 41
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Date: 28 Jul 94 14:58:08 GMT

In article Kqx@world.std.com, gmoke@world.std.com (George P Mokray) writes:
>>Jack Coats (jocoats@amoco.com) wrote: 
>>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
>>
>>: Does anyone have information, or where I could obtain information on
>>: solar powered refridgerated air conditioning.  
>>
>>	Harold Hay (at Univ of Arizona?) designed a solar house years ago
>>with a removable roof and tanks of water aobve the ceiling for storage.
>>It could be used for cooling by opening the roof at night and cooling the
>>water storage for coolth during the day.
>>	There is also the passive ventilation the Persians used - tall
>>towers with openings to the prevailing winds producing drafts and air 
>>movement inside the house for coolth.  I have also seen some designs for
>>window units with pottery jars filled with water for evaporative cooling.
>>	If you want to go higher tech, you might want to try and couple pv
>>to a heat pump.
>>

That is reasonable for an arid climate...  Here it is quite humid, and 
one major function of the air conditioners here is dehumidification.
But that is a thought, for generating thermal mass, opening it up for 
night cooling, and insulating for day time...

Older buildings, at least in this area used a similar technique to what you
describe the persians using, Tall ceilings, to let the heat rise away from
the people , opening windows on the winward (down low)
and leeward sides of the buildings (up high to let the hot air out).  Also 
big wide covered porches kept out much direct heat load.
  




---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:07 EDT 1994
Article: 780 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <a95_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 00:48:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 28 Jul 94 19:48:02 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9407271443.A1574-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:

"The money spent on a 50w PV panel could buy at least 15 or more (many
more if you're a sharp shopper) compact flourescent bulbs. The bulbs would
generate many times the payback that the PV would in a much shorter time
with no infrastructure to speak of (whereas the PV is likely connected to
batteries, charge controllers and the like). Conservation before or
concurrent with generation makes most sense. Generation without
conservation is just plain dumb."

     This is indeed a valad point. More people waste more energy in
situations where simple swap-out (lightbulbs) or enhancement (extra
insulation) options could benefit all concerned. I spent more than a year
doing just these kind of projects before I began severing my grid ties.


"The waterbed is going away. . ."

     A thought for you, Don: I am currently rigging one of the relays in
my SW4024 to kick-on the waterbed heater for limited periods when my
system reaches full charge. Since I'm not home during the day and there is
usually sun to spare (especially during the winter when we have almost no
rain and weeks of straight sunny days) this is an excellent way to utilize
my excess power. ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

Shadowfax


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:08 EDT 1994
Article: 781 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <a96_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 01:01:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 61
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 28 Jul 94 20:01:00 GMT

In article <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>, rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
writes:

"I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS
an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it
continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it may
not)."

     I acknowledge a difference of definition here. To me you're still
doing the same old job of turning a turbine with a somethingorother fired
steam boiler, the source of which is producing some form of waste. The
difference is that this source is imminently more dangerous than most
others.
     I would have considered nuclear "alternative" a few decades ago when
the technology was still new - now it's more mainstream and less of an
"alternate." I will consider solar no longer an alternate when it is more
widely developed and distributed and producing a significant ammount of
our grid-power. Perhaps then we'll be seeking ways to harness planetary
movement or something similar and that will be our new "alternative"
energy source. Till then . . . 


"What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable. 
Theoretically,
nuclear wastes can be re-used.  However, we presently lack the technology
to do this."

     Thank you for that statement. Perhaps when we stop burrying dangerous
nuclear waste and can do something useful with it I'll be more inclined to
accept it.


"While this may cause you to jump for joy, keep in mind that it wasn't too
long ago that we lack the technology to turn on a light switch or perform
open-heart surgery."

     And they said we couldn't put a man on the moon either. Times are
changing and views need to change with the times.



"What I am trying to get across to you is that I think you need to be
more open-minded to other views.  The best solutions tend to come from
contributions from several minds, not just one."

     Hence the development of the Newsgroup. AER exists for AE-minded
people to share their experiences and ideas - not to debate the old
nuclear-vs.-solar debate (correct me if I'm wrong, Don). That was one of
the main things with Harry C.'s post that got me started on this whole
thing. I have had more than my share of nuclear thisandthat while I was in
college - if nothing, the experiments I did on plants proved to me that I
really DON'T want a nuclear plant anywhere near me.

     My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
nothing to do with them.

Shadowfax


From Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:09 EDT 1994
Article: 782 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Stan.Bischof
From: Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Stan Bischof)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <a97_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:10:49 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
Lines: 36
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:10:49 GMT

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:

:      "We" is a collective I incorporated to distinguish those of us who
: are interested in renewable energy futures as opposed to those who do not
: share this interest. Your statement obviously indicates you are of the
: latter persuasion, otherwise I wouldn't be answering this question. 

Nope. Please don't put words in our mouths! We am very interested in
renewable energy futures. However we recognize that there are other factors
such as economics whihc need to be considered as well. We also have
a broad enough view to know that no energy source is without it's 
environmental (and other) concerns. We for instance realize that it takes
a tremendous amount of energy and noxious chemical processing to
create PV's, and that other methods (such as thermal conversion) might
be much more benign.

:   > (2) what is "alternative"? 

:      What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
: something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most AE
: falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
: mainstream (yet).

Well, I guess that leaves out geothermal and hydro since they are very
much mainstream here in the pacific northwest. Solar is 'alternate' for the
moment but then I guess it won't be as soon as it becomes economical for
the utilities to switch. You're proposing that once solar becomes popular this
group will no longer be able to discuss it?  


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:10 EDT 1994
Article: 783 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Stan.Bischof
From: Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Stan Bischof)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <a98_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:16:08 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:16:08 GMT

:      My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something about
: the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want
: nothing to do with them.

: Shadowfax

Then I guess you would be very much against PV's, considering the 
large energy input during processing which came from somewhere, not
to mention the hydroflouric acid, arsene gas, CFC's etc. that were
used during processing. Or does 'clean' to you simply mean that the
mess is in someone else's back yard?

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:11 EDT 1994
Article: 784 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Victor.A_.Carreno
From: Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a99_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:45:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 166
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT

|> -<On 07-01-94  22:22, while looking for dry land
|> -<Bill Basford said to All:
|> 
|>  BB> Speaking of lubricants for fuel efficiency, has anyone on this
|>  BB> conference had any experience with those Teflon oil additives that
|>  BB> promise to reduce engine friction, prolong engine life and improve
|>  BB> fuel mileage?
|> 

Is That Additive Really A Negative?
Article and Photos by Fred Rau
ROAD RIDER/August 1992/Pg 15

   Information for this article was compiled from reports and studies by
the University of Nevada Desert Research Center, DuPont Chemical Company,
Avco Lycoming (aircraft engine manufacturers), North Dakota State
University, Briggs and Stratton (engine manufacturers), the University of
Utah Engineering Experiment Station, California State Polytechnic College
and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Lewis Research
Center.

   Road Rider does not claim to have all the answers. Nor do we care to
presume to tell you what to do. We have simply tried to provide you with
all the information we were able to dredge up on this subject, in hopes
it will help you in making your own, informed decision.

You Can't Tell The Players Without A Program

   On starting this project, we set out to find as many different oil
additives as we could buy. That turned out to be a mistake. There were
simply too many avail able! At the very first auto parts store we
visited, there were over two dozen different brand names available. By
the end of the day, we had identified over 40 different oil additives for
sale and realized we needed to rethink our strategy.
   First of all, we found that if we checked the fine print on the
packages, quite a number of the additives came from the same
manufacturer. Also, we began to notice that the additives could be
separated into basic "groups" that seemed to carry approximately the same
ingredients and the same promises.
   In the end, we divided our additives into four basic groups and
purchased at least three brands from three different manufacturers for
each group. We defined our four groups this way:
   1.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with PTFE (Teflon TM) added.
   2.) Products that seemed to be nothing more than regular 50-rated
engine oil (including standard additives) with zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
added.
   3.) Products containing (as near as we could determine) much the same
additives as are already found in most major brands of engine oil, though
in different quantities and combinations.
   4.) Products made up primarily of solvents and/or detergents.
   There may be some differences in chemical makeup within groups, but
that is impossible to tell since the additive manufacturers refuse to
list the specific ingredients of their products. We will discuss each
group individually.

 The PTFE Mystery

   Currently, the most common and popular oil additives on the market are
those that contain PTFE powders suspended in a regular, over-the-counter
type, 50-rated petroleum or synthetic engine oil. PTFE is the common
abbreviation used for Polytetrafloeraethylene, more commonly known by the
trade name "Teflon," which is a registered trademark of the DuPont
Chemical Corporation. Among those oil additives we have identified as
containing PTFE are: Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Lubrilon, Microlon, Matrix,
Petrolon (same company as Slick 50), QMl, and T-Plus (K-Mart). There are
probably many more names in use on many more products using PTFE. We have
found that oil additive makers like to market their products under a
multitude of "private brand" names.
   While some of these products may contain other additives in addition
to PTFE, all seem to rely on the PTFE as their primary active ingredient
and all, without exception, do not list what other ingredients they may
contain.
   Though they have gained rather wide acceptance among the motoring
public, oil additives containing PTFE have also garnered their share of
critics among experts in the field of lubrication. By far the most
damning testimonial against these products originally came from the
DuPont Chemical Corporation, inventor of PTFE and holder of the patents
and trademarks for Teflon. In a statement issued about ten years ago,
DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist, J.F. Imbalzano said,
"Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for
internal combustion engines."
  At the time, DuPont threatened legal action against anyone who used
the name "Teflon" on any oil product destined for use in an internal
combustion engine, and refused to sell its PTFE powders to any one who
intended to use them for such purposes.
   After a flurry of lawsuits from oil additive makers, claiming DuPont
could not prove that PTFE was harmful to engines, DuPont was forced to
once again begin selling their PTFE to the additive producers. The
additive makers like to claim this is some kind of "proof' that their
products work, when in fact it is nothing more than proof that the
American legal ethic of "innocent until proven guilty" is still alive and
well. The decision against DuPont involved what is called "restraint of
trade." You can't refuse to sell a product to someone just because there
is a possibility they might use it for a purpose other than what you
intended it for.
   It should be noted that DuPont's official position on the use of PTFE
in engine oils remains carefully aloof and noncommittal, for obvious
legal reasons. DuPont states that though they sell PTFE to oil additive
producers, they have "no proof of the validity of the additive makers'
claims." They further state that they have "no knowledge of any advantage
gained through the use of PTFE in engine oil."
   Fear of potential lawsuits for possible misrepresentation of a product
seem to run much higher among those with the most to lose.
   After DuPont's decision and attempt to halt the use of PTFE in engine
oils, several of the oil additive companies simply went elsewhere for
their PTFE powders, such as purchasing them in other countries. In some
cases, they disguise or hype their PTFE as being something different or
special by listing it under one of their own tradenames. That doesn't
change the fact that it is still PTFE.
   In addition, there is some evidence that certain supplies of PTFE
powders (from manufacturers other than DuPont) are of a cruder version
than the original, made with larger sized flakes that are more likely to
"settle out" in your oil or clog up your filters. One fairly good
indication that a product contains this kind of PTFE is if the
instructions for its use advise you to "shake well before using." It only
stands to reason that if the manufacturer knows the solids in his product
will settle to the bottom of a container while sitting on a shelf, the
same thing is going to hap pen inside your engine when it is left idle
for any period of time.
   The problem with putting PTFE in your oil, as explained to us by
several industry experts, is that PTFE is a solid. The additive makers
claim this solid "coats" the moving parts in an engine (though that is
far from being scientifically proven). Slick 50 is currently both the
most aggressive advertiser and the most popular seller, with claims of
over 14 million treatments sold. However, such solids seem even more
inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After
all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a
cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in
places with low pressures and virtually no friction.
   This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives
containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said
in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked
at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental
effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a
dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is
actually depriving parts of lubricant."
   Remember, PTFE in oil additives is a suspended solid. Now think about
why you have an oil filter on your engine. To remove suspended solids,
right? Right. Therefore it would seem to follow that if your oil filter
is doing its job, it will collect as much of the PTFE as possible, as
quickly as possible. This can result in a clogged oil filter and
decreased oil pres sure throughout your engine.
   In response to our inquiries about this sort of problem, several of
the PTFE pushers responded that their particulates were of a sub-micron
size, capable of passing through an ordinary oil filter unrestricted.
This certainly sounds good, and may in some cases actually be true, but
it makes little difference when you know the rest of the story. You see,
PTFE has other qualities besides being a friction reducer: It expands
radically when exposed to heat. So even if those particles are small
enough to pass through your filter when you purchase them, they very well
may not be when your engine reaches normal operating temperature.
   Here again, the' scientific evidence seems to support this, as in
tests conducted by researchers at the University of Utah Engineering
Experiment Station involving Petrolon additive with PTFE.
   The Petrolon test report states, "There was a pressure drop across the
oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." In
addition, oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after using
the treatment, indicating that engine wear didn't go down - it appeared
to shoot up.
   This particular report was paid for by Petrolon (marketers of Slick
50), and was not all bad news for their products. The tests, conducted on
a Chevrolet six-cylinder automobile engine, showed that after treatment


From Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:11 EDT 1994
Article: 785 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Victor.A_.Carreno
From: Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 02:Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a9a_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 156
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT

with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1
percent. Also, output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1
percent, and fuel economy improved from 11.8 percent under light load to
3.8 percent under heavy load.
   These are the kind of results an aggressive marketing company like
Petrolon can really sink their teeth into. If we only reported the
results in the last paragraph to you, you'd be inclined to think Slick 50
was indeed a magic engine elixir. What you have to keep in mind is that
often times the benefits (like increased horse power and fuel economy)
may be out weighed by some serious drawbacks (like the indications of
reduced oil pressure and increased wear rate).

The Plot Thickens
   Just as we were about to go to press with this article, we were
contacted by the public relations firm of Trent and Company, an outfit
with a prestigious address in the Empire State Building, New York. They
advised us they were working for a company called QMI out of Lakeland,
Florida, that was marketing a "technological breakthrough" product in oil
additives. Naturally, we asked them to send us all pertinent information,
including any testing and research data.
   What we got was pretty much what we expected. QMI's oil additive,
according to their press release, uses "ten times more PTFE resins than
its closest competitor." Using the "unique SX-6000 formula," they say
they are the only company to use "aqueous dispersion resin which means
the microns (particle sizes) are extensively smaller and can penetrate
tight areas." This, they claim, "completely eliminates the problem of
clogged filters and oil passages."
   Intrigued by their press release, we set up a telephone interview with
their Vice-President of Technical Services, Mr. Owen Heatwole. Mr.
Heatwole's name was immediately recognized by us as one that had popped
in earlier research of this subject as a former employee of Petrolon, a
company whose name seems inextricably linked in some fashion or another
with virtually every PTFE-related additive maker in the country.
   Mr. Heatwole was a charming and persuasive talker with a knack for
avoiding direct answers as good as any seasoned politician. His glib
pitch for his product was the best we've ever heard, but when dissected
and pared down to the verifiable facts, it actually said very little.
   When we asked about the ingredients in QMI's treatments, we got almost
exactly the response we expected. Mr. Heatwole said he would "have to
avoid discussing specifics about the formula, for proprietary reasons."
   After telling us that QMI was being used by "a major oil company," a
"nuclear plant owned by a major corporation" and a "major engine
manufacturer," Mr. Heatwole followed up with, "Naturally, I can't reveal
their names - for proprietary reasons."
   He further claimed to have extensive testing and research data
available from a "major laboratory," proving conclusively how effective
QMI was. When we asked for the name of the lab, can you guess? Yup, "We
can't give out that information, for proprietary reasons."
   What QMI did give us was the typical "testimonials," though we must
admit theirs came from more recognizable sources than usual. They seem to
have won over the likes of both Team Kawasaki and Bobby Unser, who
evidently endorse and use QMI in their racing engines. Mr. Heatwole was
very proud of the fact that their product was being used in engines that
he himself admitted are "torn down and completely inspected on a weekly
basis." Of course, what he left out is that those same engines are almost
totally rebuilt every time they're torn down. So what does that prove in
terms of his product reducing wear and promoting engine longevity?
Virtually nothing.
   Mr. Heatwole declined to name the source of QMI's PTFE supply "for
proprietary reasons." He bragged that their product is sold under many
different private labels, but refused to identify those labels "for
proprietary reasons." When asked about the actual size of the PTFE
particles used in QMI, he claimed they were measured as "sub-micron in
size" by a "major motor laboratory" which he couldn't identify - you
guessed it - for "proprietary reasons."
   After about an hour of listening to "don't quote me on this," "I'll
have to deny that if you print it," and "I can't reveal that," we asked
Mr. Heatwole if there was something we could print. "Certainly," he said,
"Here's a good quote for you: 'The radical growth in technology has
overcome the problem areas associated with PTFE in the 1980s'"
   "Not bad," we said. Then we asked to whom we might attribute this gem
of wisdom. DuPont Chemical, perhaps?
   "Me," said Mr. Heatwole. "I said that."
   QMI's press releases like to quote the Guinness Book Of Records in
saying that PTFE is "The slickest substance known to man." Far be it from
us to take exception to the Guinness Book, but we doubt that PTFE is much
slicker than some of the people marketing it.

The Zinc Question
   The latest "miracle ingredient" in oil additives, attempting to usurp
PTFE's cure-all throne, is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which we will
refer to here after as simply "zinc."
   Purveyors of the new zinc-related products claim they can prove
absolute superiority over the PTFE-related products. Naturally, the PTFE
crowd claim exactly the same, in reverse.
   Zinc is contained as part of the standard additive package in
virtually every major brand of engine oil sold today, varying from a low
volume of 0.10 per cent in brands such as Valvoline All Climate and
Chevron l5W-50, to a high volume of 0.20 percent in brands such as
Valvoline Race and Pennzoil GT Performance.
   Organic zinc compounds are used as extreme pressure, anti-wear
additives, and are therefore found in larger amounts in oils specifically
blended for high-revving, turbocharged or racing applications. The zinc
in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal con
tact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating
conditions. However, if you race your bike, or occasionally play tag with
the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under
extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent
scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings.
   However - and this is the important part to remember - available
research shows that more zinc does not give you more protection, it
merely prolongs the protection if the rate of metal-to-metal contact is
abnormally high or extended. So unless you plan on spending a couple of
hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to
your oil is usually a waste. Also, keep in mind that high zinc content
can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling.
   Among the products we found containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
were Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP
Engine Treatment With XEP2. The only reason we can easily identify the
additives with the new zinc compounds is that they are required to carry
a Federally mandated warning label indicating they contain a hazardous
substance. The zinc phosphate they contain is a known eye irritant,
capable of inflicting severe harm if it comes in contact with your eyes.
If you insist on using one of these products, please wear protective
goggles and exercise extreme caution.
   As we mentioned, organic zinc compounds are already found in virtually
every major brand of oil, both automotive and motorcycle. However, in
recent years the oil companies voluntarily reduced the amount of zinc
content in most of their products after research indicated the zinc was
responsible for premature deterioration and damage to catalytic
converters. Obviously this situation would not affect 99 percent of all
the motorcycles on the road - however, it could have been a factor with
the newer BMW converter - equipped bikes.
   Since the reduction in zinc content was implemented solely for the
protection of catalytic converters, it is possible that some motorcycles
might benefit from a slight increase in zinc content in their oils. This
has been taken into account by at least one oil company, Spectro, which
offers 0.02 to 0.03 percent more zinc compounds in its motorcycle oils
than in its automotive oils.
   Since Spectro (Golden 4 brand, in this case) is a synthetic blend
lubricant designed for extended drain intervals, this increase seems to
be wholly justified. Also, available research indicates that Spectro has,
in this case, achieved a sensible balance for extended application
without increasing the zinc content to the point that it is likely to
cause spark plug fouling or present a threat to converter-equipped BMW
models.
   It would appear that someone at Spectro did their homework.

Increased Standard Additives (More Is Not Necessarily Better)
   Though some additives may not contain anything harmful to your engine,
and even some things that could be beneficial, most experts still
recommend that you avoid their use. The reason for this is that your oil,
as purchased from one of the major oil companies, already contains a very
extensive additive package.
   This package is made up of numerous, specific additive components,
blended to achieve a specific formula that will meet the requirements of
your engine. Usually, at least several of these additives will be
synergistic. That is, they react mutually, in groups of two or more, to
create an effect that none of them could attain individually. Changing or
adding to this formula can upset the balance and negate the protective
effect the formula was meant to achieve, even if you are only adding more
of something that was already included in the initial package.
   If it helps, try to think of your oil like a cake recipe. Just because


From Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:12 EDT 1994
Article: 786 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Victor.A_.Carreno
From: Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 03:Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a9b_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:45:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 162
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT

the original recipe calls for two eggs (which makes for a very moist and
tasty cake), do you think adding four more eggs is going to make the cake
better? Of course not. You're going to upset the carefully calculated
balance of ingredients and magnify the effect the eggs have on the recipe
to the point that it ruins the entire cake. Adding more of a specific
additive already contained in your oil is likely to produce similar
results.
   This information should also be taken into account when adding to the
oil already in your bike or when mixing oils for any reason, such as
synthetic with petroleum. In these cases, always make sure the oils you
are putting together have the same rating (SA, SE, SC, etc.). This tells
you their additive packages are basically the same, or at least
compatible, and are less likely to upset the balance or counteract each
other.

Detergents And Solvents
   Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do not
make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys like
Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things like
"quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner engine."
   Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents designed
to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be
flushed or burned out. Wynn's Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83
percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and
isopropanol. Usually, these ingredients will be found in a base of
standard mineral oil.
   In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite of
what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of
leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they
are designed to strip away such things.
   All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and clean up
your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The problem is,
unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove
your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip
away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of
solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful
metal-to-metal contact within your engine.
   As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and were at
least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle engines of the
Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient
engine designs of the past two decades.

The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
   At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have
witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of
certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted
engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their
"miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop
it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine
would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the
effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of
the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we
saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be rid den around
the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing
demonstration - until you know the facts.
   Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and
Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a
similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new,
identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for
bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive
included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20
hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then
both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight
hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor
miracle."
   After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down
and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both
engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated
with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was
not evident on the untreated engine.
   This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil
additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in
the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil
flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and
particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been
reported as a major area of engine damage.

The Racing Perspective
   Among the most convincing testimonials in favor of oil additives are
those that come from professional racers or racing teams. As noted
previously, some of the oil additive products actually are capable of
producing less engine friction, better gas mileage and higher horsepower
out put. In the world of professional racing, the split-second advantage
that might be gained from using such a product could be the difference
between victory and defeat.
   Virtually all of the downside or detrimental effects attached to these
products are related to extended, long-term usage. For short-life,
high-revving, ultra-high performance engines designed to last no longer
than one racing season (or in some cases, one single race), the long-term
effects of oil additives need not even be considered.
   Racers also use special high-adhesion tires that give much better
traction and control than our normal street tires, but you certainly
wouldn't want to go touring on them, since they're designed to wear out
in several hundred (or less) miles. Just because certain oil additives
may be beneficial in a competitive context is no reason to believe they
would be equally beneficial in a touring context.

The Best of The Worst
   Not all engine oil additives are as potentially harmful as some of
those we have described here. However, the best that can be said of those
that have not proved to be harmful is that they haven't been proved to
offer any real benefits, either. In some cases, introducing an additive
with a compatible package of components to your oil in the right
proportion and at the right time can conceivably extend the life of your
oil. However, in every case we have studied it proves out that it would
actually have been cheaper to simply change the engine oil instead.
   In addition, recent new evidence has come to light that makes using
almost any additive a game of Russian Roulette. Since the additive
distributors do not list the ingredients contained within their products,
you never know for sure just what you are putting in your engine.
   Recent tests have shown that even some of the most inoffensive
additives contain products which, though harmless in their initial state,
convert to hydrofluoric acid when exposed to the temperatures inside a
firing cylinder. This acid is formed as part of the exhaust gases, and
though it is instantly expelled from your engine and seems to do it no
harm, the gases collect inside your exhaust system and eat away at your
mufflers from the inside out.

Whatever The Market Will Bear
   The pricing of oil additives seems to follow no particular pattern
whatsoever. Even among those products that seem to be almost identical,
chemically, retail prices covered an extremely wide range. For example:
   One 32-ounce bottle of Slick 50 (with PTFE) cost us $29.95 at a
discount house that listed the retail price as $59.95, while a 32-ounce
bottle of T-Plus (which claims to carry twice as much PTFE as the Slick
50) cost us only $15.88.
   A 32-ounce bottle of STP Engine Treatment (containing what they call
XEP2), which they claim they can prove "outperforms leading PTFE engine
treatments," cost us $17.97. Yet a can of K Mart Super Oil Treatment,
which listed the same zinc-derivative ingredient as that listed for the
XEP2, cost us a paltry $2.67.
   Industry experts estimate that the actual cost of producing most oil
additives is from one-tenth to one-twentieth of the asking retail price.
Certainly no additive manufacturer has come forward with any exotic,
high-cost ingredient or list of ingredients to dispute this claim. As an
interesting note along with this, back before there was so much
competition in the field to drive prices down, Petrolon (Slick 50) was
selling their PTFE products for as much as $400 per treatment! The words
"buyer beware" seem to take on very real significance when talking about
oil additives.
The Psychological Placebo
   You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the
million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why so
many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any other
number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for us - but
we go ahead and do them anyway.
   Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of us
hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have purchased
the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.
   Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes with
thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing knowledge of
something just a bit better than everyone else.
   Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need we all
seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any shortage of
unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to believe that
there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help us lose weight,
grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our engines run longer and


From Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:14 EDT 1994
Article: 787 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Victor.A_.Carreno
From: Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 04:Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a9c_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:45:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 162
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT

better. I doubt that there's a one of us who hasn't fallen for one of
these at least once in our lifetimes. We just want it to be true so bad
that we can't help ourselves.

Testimonial Hype vs. Scientific Analysis
   In general, most producers of oil additives rely on personal
"testimonials" to advertise and promote their products. A typical print
advertisement will be one or more letters from a satisfied customer
stating something like, "1 have used Brand X in my engine for 2 years and
50,000 miles and it runs smoother and gets better gas mileage than ever
before. I love this product and would recommend it to anyone."
   Such evidence is referred to as "anecdotal" and is most commonly used
to pro mote such things as miracle weight loss diets and astrology.
   Whenever I see one of these ads I am reminded of a stunt played out
several years ago by Allen Funt of "Candid Camera" that clearly
demonstrated the side of human nature that makes such advertising
possible.
   With cameras in full view, fake "product demonstrators" would offer
people passing through a grocery store the opportunity to taste-test a
"new soft drink." What the victims didn't know was that they were being
given a horrendous concoction of castor oil, garlic juice, tabasco sauce
and several other foul-tasting ingredients. After taking a nice, big
swallow, as instructed by the demonstrators, the unwitting victims
provided huge laughs for the audience by desperately trying to conceal
their anguish and disgust. Some literally turned away from the cameras
and spit the offending potion on the floor.
   The fascinating part came when about one out of four of the victims
would actually turn back to the cameras and proclaim the new drink was
"Great" or "Unique" or, in several cases, "One of the best things I've
ever tasted!" Go figure.
   The point is, compiling "personal testimonials" for a product is one
of the easiest things an advertising company can do - and one of the
safest, too. You see, as long as they are only expressing some one else's
personal opinion, they don't have to prove a thing! It's just an opinion,
and needs no basis in fact whatsoever.
   On the other hand, there has been documented, careful scientific
analysis done on numerous oil additives by accredited institutions and
researchers.
   For example:
   Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We
have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all
worthless."
   Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable
engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They
do not appear to offer any benefits."
   North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and
said in their report, "The theory sounds good - the only problem is that
the products simply don't work."
   And finally, Ed Hackett, chemist at the University of Nevada Desert
Research Center, says, "Oil additives should not be used. The oil
companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive pack age that
meets the vehicle's requirements. If you add anything to this oil you may
upset the balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification."
   Petrolon, Inc., of Houston, Texas, makers of Petrolon and producers of
at least a dozen other lubrication products containing PTFE, including
Slick 50 and Slick 30 Motorcycle Formula, claim that, "Multiple tests by
independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an
automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts.
Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50
percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone."
   Sounds pretty convincing, doesn't it?
   The problem is, Petrolon and the other oil additive companies that
claim "scientific evidence" from "independent laboratories," all refuse
to identify the laboratories that conducted the tests or the criteria
under which the tests were conducted. They claim they are "contractually
bound" by the laboratories to not reveal their identities.
   In addition, the claim of "50 percent less wear" has never been proven
on anything approaching a long-term basis. Typical examples used to
support the additive makers' claims involve engines run from 100 to 200
hours after treatment, during which time the amount of wear particles in
the oil decreased. While this has proven to be true in some cases, it has
also been proven that after 400 to 500 hours of running the test engines
invariably reverted to producing just as many wear particles as before
treatment, and in some cases, even more.
   No matter what the additive makers would like you to believe, nothing
has been proven to stop normal engine wear.
   You will note that all of the research facilities quoted in this
article are clearly identified. They have no problem with making their
findings public. You will also note that virtually all of their findings
about oil additives are negative. That's not because we wanted to give a
biased report against oil additives - it's because we couldn't find a
single laboratory, engine manufacturer or independent research facility
who would make a public claim, with their name attached to it, that any
of the additives were actually beneficial to an engine. The conclusion
seems inescapable.
   As a final note on advertising hype versus the real world, we saw a
television ad the other night for Slick 50 oil additive. The ad
encouraged people to buy their product on the basis of the fact that,
"Over 14 million Americans have tried Slick 50!" Great. We're sure you
could just as easily say, "Over 14 million Americans have smoked
cigarettes!"-but is that really any reason for you to try it? Of course
not, because you've seen the scientific evidence of the harm it can do.
The exact same principle applies here.

In Conclusion
   The major oil companies are some of the richest, most powerful and
aggressive corporations in world. They own multi-million dollar research
facilities manned by some of the best chemical engineers money can hire.
It is probably safe to say that any one of them has the capabilities and
resources at hand in marketing, distribution, advertising, research and
product development equal to 20 times that of any of the independent
additive companies. It therefore stands to reason that if any of these
additive products were actually capable of improving the capabilities of
engine lubricants, the major oil companies would have been able to
determine that and to find some way to cash in on it.
   Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or
endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
   In addition, all of the major vehicle and engine manufacturers spend
millions of dollars each year trying to increase the longevity of their
products, and millions more paying off warranty claims when their
products fail. Again, it only stands to reason that if they thought any
of these additives would increase the life or improve the performance of
their engines, they would be actively using and selling them - or at
least endorsing their use.
   Instead, many of them advise against the use of these additives and,
in some cases, threaten to void their warranty coverage if such things
are found to be used in their products.
   In any story of this nature, absolute "facts" are virtually impossible
to come by. Opinions abound. Evidence that points one direction or the
other is avail able, but has to be carefully ferreted out, and is not
always totally reliable or completely verifiable.
   In this environment, conclusions reached by known, knowledgeable
experts in the field must be given a certain amount of weight.
Conclusions reached by unknown, unidentifiable sources must be discounted
almost totally. That which is left must be weighed, one side against the
other, in an attempt to reach a "reasonable" conclusion.
   In the case of oil additives, there is a considerable volume of
evidence against their effectiveness. This evidence comes from well-known
and identifiable expert sources, including independent research
laboratories, state universities, major engine manufacturers, and even
NASA.
   Against this rather formidable barrage of scientific research,
additive makers offer not much more than their own claims of
effectiveness, plus questionable and totally unscientific personal
testimonials. Though the purveyors of these products state they have
studies from other independent laboratories supporting their claims, they
refuse to identify the labs or provide copies of the research. The only
test results they will share are those from their own testing
departments, which must, by their very nature, be taken with a rather
large grain of salt.

Sidebar: Synthetic Oils
   Whenever we talk about oil additives, the subject of synthetic oils
inevitably crops up. Actually, the tow subjects have very little to do
with each other, but since many riders seem to equate additives and
synthetics together in their minds, we will take a few lines just to
clear the air.
   Synthetic oils were originally developed for use in gas turbine
engines. In most cases they are capable of maintaining their viscosity
for longer periods of use and under much greater temperatures and
pressures than petroleum products. Commons synthetics used for engine
lubrication today are Polyalphaolefin (like Mobil 1) or Dibasic Organic
Esters (like AMSOIL). They are fully compatible with conventional oils
and can be mixed, providing their ratings match.
   Probably the best situation is a blend of synthetics and mineral oils,
such as Golden Spectro and AGIP Sint 2000. These products seem to offer
the best of both worlds in protection and extended service life. They may
cost considerably more than standard petroleum products, but they also
can be used for much longer periods between oil changes without losing


From Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:16 EDT 1994
Article: 788 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Victor.A_.Carreno
From: Victor.A_.Carreno@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Victor A. Carreno)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 05:Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a9d_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:45:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NASA Langley Research Center
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: vac@air16.larc.nasa.gov (Victor A. Carreno)
Date: 28 Jul 94 21:45:24 GMT

their protective capabilities.
   Synthetics and synthetic blends offer a wider range of protection than
standard petroleum products. However, it should be noted that this
extended range of protection reaches into an area of temperatures and
pressures virtually impossible to attain inside most motorcycle engines
and transmissions. In other words, if you use them, you are buying a sort
of "overkill protection." It's certainly not going to hurt anything -
it's just unnecessary. That is, unless it makes you feel better knowing
the extra protection is on board, in which case the added expense may be
well justified.
   As a basic rule of thumb, using the standard engine oil recommended by
your bike's manufacturer and changing it about every 3000 miles will
afford you all the protection you'll ever need. But if you feel better
knowing you have more protection than you need or, if you like the
extended service-life feature, there's certainly nothing wrong with using
a premium grade synthetic blend lubricant.
--


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:18 EDT 1994
Article: 789 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <a9e_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 03:50:12 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 70
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 28 Jul 94 22:50:12 GMT



On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

> Watts/hour being a nonsense unit, I will assume you mean output is
> 50-60 watts, meaning he can't even light a decent reading lamp with
> this. Since 60 watts for 24 hours is 1440 watt-hours, this sounds
> correct. But my goodness, what's the point?

  I'll pass on your first comment; I phrased it that way for clarity.
Everything is relative to one's mindset. I can power 3 OSRAM compact 
flourescent 20 watt lamps with 60 watts and read quite well (with one 
lamp). In the context of your grid connected home 1400 watts might not 
seem like a lot but to folks off the grid it's heaven. 1400watts will 
power a 16 cu. ft Sunfrost refridgerator for a day plus run 6 OSRAM 
20w lamps for 5 hours and let me run my stereo for 6 hours. My energy 
budget for our new home is a little less than 4kWh per day. I wish we had 
a hydro resource because I'd love to have an extra 1400 watts day...

> >He has a fair amount of 
> >head for the system so his water (gpm) requirements are fairly low. In 
> >his hybrid system (hydro and PV) he figures the hydro puts out the same 
> >power that 5 untracked 50 watt panels would since this is usually a 24 
>  ^^^^^
> >hour resource. 
> 
> You mean "energy", not power. Is he charging batteries?

   Oh I suppose that's a more proper term but you're splitting hairs 
again. Do you have too much time on your hands David? Yes, this fellow is 
charging batteries, a 1050ah 12v pack.
 
> >It makes a nice compliment for his PV's because during the 
> >winter when it rains and the PV output is nil the hydro is at it's peak. 
> 
> The amount of hydro available is limited by the head available, not the
> flow rate of the water, so long as there is sufficent water to keep the
> dam "full". In what way is the hydro at its peak?

    As mentioned the dam doesn't have to be full, you don't even need a 
dam dependant on your situation. Certainly you must have some head to 
make hydro power just as you must have some flow. To a certain extent you 
can trade off head for flow as witnessed by all the francis style low 
head hydro turbines in use. They don't rely on much head so they need a 
lot of GPM instead and make quite a bit of power.
 
> This is interesting as a demonstration, but what is its practical use?
> What does he operate with the small amount of resulting electricity?

   A home and business. He also has photovoltaics to generate power with 
a propane powered generator as back up.

   Apparently much of what is discussed in this area isn't going to make 
a whole lot of sense to you. If you have a mindset that any reasonable 
home is going to be able to consume 30-40 kilowatt hours per day it will 
seem totally alien that anyone would be happy and run their home and 
business on a tenth of that. It's possible and many people do so quite 
sucessfully. 
   There are places in rural China and other parts of the world where a 
single 30watt PV panel making 150 watts/day to power a couple small lamps 
and a radio is considered miraculous by people who've depended on candles
and kerosene for decades. In some places a couple PV panels hooked up to 
a small 2 cubic foot reefer to refridgerate vaccines has halved the 
infant mortality rate. By commonly accepted US standards 1400 watts/day 
is next to nothing....to others it's life saving. Try and expand your 
outlook a little Dave.
     DCK


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:21 EDT 1994
Article: 790 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Pearls of wisdom
Message-ID: <a9f_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 04:23:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 28 Jul 94 23:23:19 GMT



On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, Bill Parker wrote:

> I joined this mailing list a while ago thinking I could glean some pearls
> of wisdom from the USA. Sadly, that hasn't been the case so far, and the
> stuff re nuclear power is getting a mite tedious. I had the impression that
> you folks were way ahead ( most people who live in this city think that
> about anywhere anyway, we're so isolated), but I'm wondering........
> Would anyone be interested in some up dates on what is happening in Aus
> anyway? Considering what is happening here (east coast) with solar thermal
> and PV technology. . . .
> 
> "Don't give up the day job"
> (Dr) Bill Parker  - Fax & Phone +619 328 3804
> Box 175 North Perth Western Australia 6006

    Thanks for your post Bill. Yes, the nuke bit is tedious at best and 
we specified in the mission statement that the only nuke we were 
interested in was the hub for this solar system. Folks just can't seem to 
fathom that though. Frankly I believe a lot of people are abit taken back 
by the thought of decentralized power generation and use. There are folks 
out there who've spent years studying and developing careers in part 
relating to utility scale power and nukes in particular that find this 
all a bit threatening. Please hang on a bit longer...the new issue of 
Home Power magazine is shipping today and contains an article on the 
conference which will bring lots of folks online here. Would love to hear 
about developments in OZ...Please keep us posted....DCK


From Doug.Hockin@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:24 EDT 1994
Article: 791 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Doug.Hockin
From: Doug.Hockin@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Doug Hockin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislation/politics
Message-ID: <aa0_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 04:14:21 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Olivetti North America, Spokane, WA
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dough@tau-ceti.isc-br.com (Doug Hockin)
Date: 28 Jul 94 23:14:21 GMT

In article <mwilson.775171685@ncratl> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O.
Wilson) writes:
>In <hatunenCtAwrG.8M9@netcom.com> hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
>
>|A lot of people think hydro is a renewable power source. It's not. All
>|dams are destined to silt up eventually, and become useless for power
>|generation and flood control. There are no economically feasible ways
>|to clear out the silt. 
>
>Of course since there is no reservoir capacity, the water will have to
>be used as it arrives, there can be no saving for peak loads.
	 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seasonal runoff variations.




-- 
Doug Hockin                     Internet:  Doug.Hockin@mail.spk.olivetti.com
Olivetti North America          UUCP:      oliveb!isc-br!Doug.Hockin
22425 East Appleway             Phone:     509 927 5477
Liberty Lake WA 99019-9534 USA  Fax:       509 927 5612


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:26 EDT 1994
Article: 792 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing viewpoint, more of an observation 4/4
Message-ID: <aa1_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:10:23 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 29 Jul 94 00:10:23 GMT



On 28 Jul 1994, MShadowfax wrote:

> "The waterbed is going away. . ."
> 
>      A thought for you, Don: I am currently rigging one of the relays in
> my SW4024 to kick-on the waterbed heater for limited periods when my
> system reaches full charge. Since I'm not home during the day and there is
> usually sun to spare (especially during the winter when we have almost no
> rain and weeks of straight sunny days) this is an excellent way to utilize
> my excess power. ITMT I have two throw-blankets between the sheets and
> mattress (more than warm enough, especially when my girlfriend is over).

    Interestingly I have seen a setup where someone was using a closed 
loop solar thermal water heating system to heat a waterbed. No ideal how 
well it actually worked but I'd bet it could be easily engineered. I'll 
definitly be looking into it....DCK


From Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:27 EDT 1994
Article: 793 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Len.Turnbow
From: Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Len Turnbow)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <aa2_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 04:59:35 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NETCOM On-line (408 261-4700 guest)
Lines: 34
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Date: 28 Jul 94 23:59:35 GMT

The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
standard D.C. charger. 

The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

(Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:29 EDT 1994
Article: 794 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!DaveHatunen
From: DaveHatunen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (DaveHatunen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <aa3_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 07:45:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Date: 29 Jul 94 02:45:06 GMT

In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
>The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
>contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
>Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
>
>A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
>produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
>is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
>In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
>a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
>would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
>were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
>standard D.C. charger. 
>
>The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
>conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
>and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
>the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
>
>Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
>the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
>do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
>Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
>plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
>Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
>from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
>deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************


From Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:31 EDT 1994
Article: 795 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Len.Turnbow
From: Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Len Turnbow)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <aa4_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 10:57:35 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-470
Lines: 35
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Date: 29 Jul 94 05:57:35 GMT

Len Turnbow (quartlow@netcom.com) wrote:
: The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  

: A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
: produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
: is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
: In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
: a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
: would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
: were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
: standard D.C. charger. 

: The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
: conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
: and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
: the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   


: Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
: the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
: do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
: Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
: plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
: Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
: from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
: deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

: (Seems to me that developers of EV controllers should try to
: contract with EPTI to include this new method into charge 
: controllers and regenerative braking systems.) 


From Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:32 EDT 1994
Article: 796 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Len.Turnbow
From: Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Len Turnbow)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Message-ID: <aa5_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Jul 94 11:21:08 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NETCOM (408 261-4700 guest)
Lines: 48
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Date: 29 Jul 94 06:21:08 GMT

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
: Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
: >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
: >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
: >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
: >
: >(Body of article snipped)

Dave wrote:
: Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

: Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
: take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
: would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
: of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
: The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
: could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
: must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
: a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
: gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

(Sig snipped)

Len replies:

The article didn't mention if the charger used a local battery
to integrate the charge over a long period of time.  An EV equipped with
10 batteries, each measuring 105 amp-hours would require 1522.5 WHr per
battery for a recharge.  The block of 10 batteries would thus need 
15225 WHr.  For a 20 minute recharge, this equates to 45675 W for the
entire block.  I agree that even at 230V, this is a mind-boggling
199 amps. 

However, if the charger had a local matching battery block that it recharged
over a period of only eight hours daily, the continuous load would be
only =) about 25 amps at 230 V.  More reasonable, Nes pas?

Why not just swap battery blocks, I hear you say?  It would be faster,
I agree.  The reason is that a rapid-recharge system could accomodate your 
car or truck or motorcycle or lawnmower all with differently sized packs.

This is one way around the problem you mentioned.

Regards,  --Len


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:34 EDT 1994
Article: 797 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Bicycle
Message-ID: <2b2_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 05:35:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

DP>Yes again, it is feasable <and in many cases ideal> to use 12 volt
DP>appliances in the house. Many and various devices are available for
DP>either cars or campers that would outfit such a house well. <except for
DP>TV(bigger than 5") and large motor appliances such as washing machines
DP>and driers, oh and Air conditioners too> Stoves/ovens could be gas, no
DP>problem, as well as water heaters. <and as we all know there are ways to
DP>produce your own gas too> Refers and freezers could be gas or 12 volt
DP>absorbtion systems.

I have a 13" B&W TV and a 13" color TV that are both 110 AC/ 12 DC
units. There is also a VCR that works on 12 volt DC. My refriderator in
the camper is 12 volt and uses a compressor like a 110 household fridge.
Amperage draw of the small camper fridge is 3.7 amps as shown on the
label. Household size ones I have seen advertised use about 10 amps if I
remember right.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:37 EDT 1994
Article: 798 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 05:45:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC> > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
TC> > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
TC> > ICE.

TC> LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

TC>Yea me too !

TC>People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
TC>More people are driving...(increasing population)

TC>So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and
TC>better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
TC>an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
TC>the same scale as the population increases their driving.

I think a major source of polution may well be the transmission of the
extra electricity and the manufacture, vaporisation and disposal of car
components such as batteries. A local battery distributor (for a major
manufacturer that is not intrastate 8-} ) says that he only gets one
battery back for recycling for every 10-15 that he sells. The rest are
going in dumps. The battery emissions and disposal alone probably create
as much polution nationwide as internal combustion cars in good
condition do nationwide. Then you have the tremendously larger amounts
of electrity that hs to be carried on whole new networks. Manufacturing,
transporting and installing that wire is going to create considerable
pollution. It wouldn't surprise mwe that total effects might be higher
for electric cars although transmission line construction would be a one
time thing.


 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:39 EDT 1994
Article: 799 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Windpower And Disarmamen
Message-ID: <2b4_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Jul 94 06:02:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 40
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Doug Bashford
Status: O
X-Status: 

DB> RG> My neighbor is attempting to bring together the
DB> RG> environmental movement and the nuclear disarmament movement into
DB> RG> a visionary project for North Dakota.

DB> RG> North Dakota has hundreds of remote missile sites.  Most of
DB> RG> these sites are eventually doomed to abandonment.  The normal
DB> RG> reaction of the rural people to this thought is to use political
DB> RG> power (through congressmen and senators) to keep the military
DB> RG> sites open whether they are militarily needed or not.

DB> RG> These sites have very good infrastructure--power, concrete,
DB> RG> roads, security systems, etc.  My neighbor has received some
DB> RG> grants to study the use of these remote missile sites eventually
DB> RG> for "hubs" for a vast windpower network he is designing.  Since
DB> RG> North Dakota has some of the most constant and high prevailing
DB> RG> winds in the nation, his idea is makes great sense, even to a
DB> RG> sceptic like me.

Kind of a moot question as the terms of the treaties under which the
missle sites are being asbandoned are that the silos and control centers
be destroyeed by explosives or by filling them with concrete. One silo
and control center of each style of system may be saved as a historical
site. Here in South Dakota, we have the same situation as in ND. As a
poart of the purchase agreement with the landholders when the sites were
built, the sites are to be sold back to the previous owner at below cost
when the sites are no longer needed for missile uses. Several landowners
have tryed to get the silos and control centers also as these would make
good storage structures for water etc as well as possible dwellings.
Both the US and Russia say no, they must be destroyed under the terms of
the treaties.

Incidently, the electronics, much of the plumbing, and the "household"
furnishings from the silos, control centers, and associated personell
housing has been flowing into the local surplus auctions for some time.
While it lasts, there will be some good stuff at quite nice prices. I
have seen everything from clothing to vehicles to computers to TV's and
safes just large enough for a small instruction card and a couple keys !


 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:42 EDT 1994
Article: 800 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Biofuels
Message-ID: <2c4_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 08:02:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tom Lent
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tom Lent told Dean Kuusela regarding Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS :

TL>If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you 
TL>have the option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil 
TL>fuel nasties and cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is 
TL>generally safer to handle).

Seems like I recall that castor bean oil is good in the fuel tank or the 
oil sump of Diesel units.  Other vegetable oils work too I understand.  
I'm not sure what the problems all are.  There are probably some.


---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * I'm a BBSer and I'm OK I post all night & sleep all day


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:43 EDT 1994
Article: 801 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <2ca_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 19:07:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gordon Campbell
Status: O
X-Status: 


 GC> On (01 Aug 94) Michael Welch wrote to Cloyce Osborn...

 MW> Hi Cloyce,

 MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself, although
 MW> they are not yet installed.

 GC> Where would one obtain these beauties?

I came by mine through a neighbor who works for the rail road as a signal
maintainer.  It seems that the RR uses them as backup power for the signals at
crossings and periodically replaces them as preventative maintenance.  They
have to PAY to dispose of them!  I merely mentioned to him that I'd like to
have some and he showed up the next day with a pickup load.  He still asks me
from time to time if I'd like to have some more.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:45 EDT 1994
Article: 802 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: usenet link
Message-ID: <2ce_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 02:07:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 


 DS> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used
 DS> to be a pretty friendly place with folks describing what
 DS> they might want to do or try.  Lately its a lot like
 DS> sci.energy with folks constantly trying to pick a
 DS> fight.<sigh>

I second the Motion!

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:47 EDT 1994
Article: 803 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Geothermal
Message-ID: <2cf_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 02:45:13 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Brannan
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JB> I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
 JB> the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
 JB> deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
 JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
 JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
 JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
 JB> done in a practical way?

Geothermal power?  Sure, it's being used in lots of remote locations.  The
trouble with geothermal is that you've got to drill into a very hot formation
(like an underground volcano) for it to be practical so it's very location
dependent.  In most locations, the bottom hole temperature at 3000' would only
be on the order of 60-70 degrees F. - not hot enough to do the job.

I have drilled oil wells here in Oklahoma where you couldn't handle the bits
when they were pulled from the hole because they were too hot.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Randy.Castillo@125-131.psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug  8 12:26:49 EDT 1994
Article: 804 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-131!Randy.Castillo
From: Randy.Castillo@125-131.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy Castillo)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: COMPUTER BACK/UP POWER
Message-ID: <2e6_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 02:09:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: California's Oldest
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Is it possible to use Solar Cells to bulit a Battery charger for the clock chip
on the mother board....


From Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug  8 12:26:51 EDT 1994
Article: 805 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-106-941-0!Terry.goode
From: Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Terry goode)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RENEWABLES
Message-ID: <2ea_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 11:53:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: THE GOLDEN COCO'S OTHER COMPUTER
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Brannan
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
 JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
 JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
 JB> done in a practical way?
InterMountian Geo Thermol (sp)"too early in the am" ,in nevada i think. my
company supplies the batch processing equiptment for them.
if you want more info just let me know.
terry g.


From bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au Mon Aug  8 12:26:52 EDT 1994
Article: 806 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Bill Parker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: stuff about Aust.
Date: 8 Aug 1994 15:26:54 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 39
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408082239.aa26934@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 


>    Thanks for your post Bill. Yes, the nuke bit is tedious ...... Please hang
>on a bit longer...the new issue of Home Power magazine is shipping today and
>contains an article on the
>conference which will bring lots of folks online here. Would love to hear
>about developments in OZ...Please keep us posted....DCK

Thanks for the encouragement! I have HP to hand - arrived today and it gets
better.
Just by way of intro. I got into "solar" thru an organisation in Perth "The
Solar Energy Information Centre".
>From there I joined the Aust NZ Solar Energy Society, do regular seminars
on home design and home power, and was last involved as chair organising
our national conference.
If anyone wants a trip to Sydney just before Christmas, SOLAR 94 is this
years' meeting and they should contact Deo Prasad at Solarch, University of
New South Wales Box 1 Kensington NSW 2033 Australia. You are welcome! First
week of December.
Things happening in Australia. I guess for the home consumer it's pretty
much like I read in HP, same arguments with utilities etc. One diff. for
this state ( the one where Texas fits neatly in the top corner). A lot of
towns are on diesel, and at least one is now moving smoothly towards wind -
Esperance, on the south coast, in the roaring forties. Another wind system
is powering a de salination plant by a locally manufactured Westwind
Turbine, at Monkey Mia - a place so windy that you go horizontal in the
afternoons. The town gets some of the power from the 60kW machine, although
this was beyond design expectations.
Nationally, things are moving in the solar thermal area with two
technologies, parabolic dish (Steve Kaneff Aust. Nat. Univ in Canberra) and
trough technologies (Dr David Mills Univ. of Sydeny) coming along. The
former LUZ company, now called SOLEL is here currently, looking at setting
up a factory. Fuller details of the technologies in the British mag: New
Scientist of 2July No 1932. Good balanced story also featuring Prof Green,
who I believe holds the record for PV efficiency at 23.5%

"Don't give up the day job"
(Dr) Bill Parker  - Fax & Phone +619 328 3804
Box 175 North Perth Western Australia 6006



From mshadowfax@aol.com Mon Aug  8 23:19:28 EDT 1994
Article: 807 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 8 Aug 1994 12:59:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"You need to know more electrical engineering."

    Perhaps so - I never said I was any kind of expert. Then again - my
lights are glowing, my ceiling fans are turning, and my TV and stereo are
blaring away quite nicely from power generated through my electrical
engineering experience.

Shadowfax
     (not doing to badly for self-taught)




From mshadowfax@aol.com Mon Aug  8 23:19:29 EDT 1994
Article: 808 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Date: 8 Aug 1994 12:50:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <325nnq$fom@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <25d_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <25d_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tom Lent) writes:

"It is a dangerous world when we start deciding who can talk and who
can't."


     Actually it was the nuclear aspect that started the whole
problem/thread - we've already determined that it it NOT a renewable
resource and therefore has little or no place on alt.energy.RENEWABLE.
Beyond that I'm game to listen to what anyone has to say provided it
remains with in the FAQ guidelines for this Newsgroup.

Shadowfax




From mshadowfax@aol.com Mon Aug  8 23:19:29 EDT 1994
Article: 809 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 8 Aug 1994 12:56:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <325o35$fs4@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <31v5n9$k9j@panix3.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <31v5n9$k9j@panix3.panix.com>, tim@panix.com (Tim Mullen)
writes:

"   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
"child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?"

     Actually I prefer to pull the wires out and work on the sockets and
breaker boxes live, bathing in the glorious cascade of falling electrons
and surging EM fields.

Shadowfax




From Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV Mon Aug  8 23:19:30 EDT 1994
Article: 810 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 8 Aug 1994 18:44:04 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <01HFNYJHDWFA9AMEQN@mr.sen.ca.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Status: O
X-Status: 

UNSUBSCRIBE



From dkulha@crl.com Mon Aug  8 23:19:31 EDT 1994
Article: 811 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 8 Aug 1994 19:28:37 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 16
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408081204.A4164-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <325o35$fs4@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



> In article <31v5n9$k9j@panix3.panix.com>, tim@panix.com (Tim Mullen)
> writes:
> 
> "   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?"

    Naw, I have lots of buckets around  in which to collect those 
electrons. I save 'em up and pour the little buggers back into my battery 
periodically. Helps a lot to have a big funnel.

    Funny guy, Tim :-).......DCK




From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Mon Aug  8 23:19:32 EDT 1994
Article: 812 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: On wind turbines, intertie, and flames
Date: 8 Aug 1994 19:33:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408081926.NAA10959@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

It is usually cusomary when joining a new list to lurk for a while to
see what the local etiquette is.

To hell with the customs!

In the half-dozen days I've been signed onto this list, there have been
a lot of pissing contests of the "I know better than you do" or "I and
millions of my closest friends want you to shut up" types.  Can we all
be a little civilized here?

Look -- everyone here should be willing to listen to what someone else
says.  You might learn something from a message sent from a person who
you otherwise would totally disagree with.  The only argument that holds
water on this "nuke discussion issue" is that it isn't _renewable._  The
other items, however valid they may be, are no reason to tell the original
poster to shut up.  (OTOH, "harvesting" power from overhead lines isn't
renewable either, and there's been a lot of traffic on that, too.)

In summary, let's try to keep the discussion content up and flamage down.
Speaking for myself, I'm here to learn something!  (Okay, go ahead and
flame me for this, but ask yourself if you'd talk to your neighbor that
way first.)

...now back to the subject at hand...

I'm in the very early planning stages of a system.  At this point, I know
only that it will need to produce a large amount of power (~250kWh/month)
even after conservation measures, and it will be a hybrid of at least
solar and wind, and -- if possible -- hydro.  I'm fully aware of the costs
involved here and am budgeting accordingly.

My questions:  Is there anyone along the Front Range of Colorado reading
this who could a) tell me of their experiences with intertying to Public
Service <irony> Co.? ...or b) tell me of their experiences with wind power
in this area -- specifically survivability -- with various brands of wind
turbine?  Anyone here using a Whisper 1000 or 3000 on the Front Range?
Do they hold together???

Thanks in advance!

Greetings from surreal Boulder, CO,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Will code for food."



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Mon Aug  8 23:19:33 EDT 1994
Article: 813 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!boulder!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cu89uM.20E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 17:56:44 GMT
References: <325nnq$fom@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
: remains with in the FAQ guidelines for this Newsgroup.

Where is the FAQ for this group??

I looked in the usual place (rtfm.mit.edu) and couldn't find it.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Mon Aug  8 23:19:34 EDT 1994
Article: 814 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.776365434@ncratl>
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 17:03:54 GMT
References: <latta.12.2E422EAF@ace.acadiau.ca> <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <31uuhd$oek@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

|be created nor destroyed. My question here is what would happen to this
|radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and "harvest" it? It's

It would collapse back into the wire in the next half cycle.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Mon Aug  8 23:19:35 EDT 1994
Article: 815 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!mandla
From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: MAZDA WATER ENGINE?
Date: 8 Aug 1994 18:31:54 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <325tmq$ntg@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
References: <25a_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dick Dillman (Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

:  >      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually 
:  > has 
:  > such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
:  > hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't 
:  > exactly 
:  > water powered but related to such.....

: Okay, a "water" powered Mazda.  I can dig it.  But how do they get the hydrogen
: out of the water without expending more energy doing so than the resulting
: hydrogen contains?
:  
::: BMW has a working 735i motor car on show in Cape Town. They claim that
:::you can use PV to get the hydrogen out of the water. There must be a catch
:::to this car, because they say they are ready to manufacture it and it seems
:::as if besides the bulky fuel tank this car should be on road. Besides it
:::looked a lot more practical than the electric car (BMW E1) which was also on
:::show. The elctric car only had a range of 200km compared to the H2 car's
:::400km and the H2 car used existing engine techology with minor
:::modifications and it can use petrol by simply switching the fuel tank
:::over.

:::I would like to know if H2 cars can satisfy the Carlifornia zero emmision laws?
:: I think this car could be the solution to the Southern african fuel woes. We
::are paying US$2.38 per litre for petrol, meanwhile there is plenty of
::sunshine here and enough water for electrolysis to H2, therefore i figure
::that H2 is the way to go, compared to electric cars.

:: M. Sibanda 
:: Cape Town, South Africa


From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Mon Aug  8 23:19:36 EDT 1994
Article: 816 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!mandla
From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS
Date: 8 Aug 1994 18:33:44 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <325tq8$ntg@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
References: <25b_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tom Lent (Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you have the
: option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil fuel nasties and
: cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is generally safer to handle).

>What is soydiesel? Is it a fuel made from biomass?


From bwartman@teleport.com Mon Aug  8 23:21:26 EDT 1994
Article: 817 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!news.teleport.com!news.teleport.com!not-for-mail
From: bwartman@teleport.com (Brad Wartman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Geothermal
Date: 8 Aug 1994 17:13:30 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <326hna$moo@elaine.teleport.com>
References: <2cf_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine.teleport.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <2cf_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us> Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn) writes:


> JB> I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
> JB> the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
> JB> deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
> JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
> JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
> JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
> JB> done in a practical way?

>Geothermal power?  Sure, it's being used in lots of remote locations.  The
>trouble with geothermal is that you've got to drill into a very hot formation
>(like an underground volcano) for it to be practical so it's very location
>dependent.  In most locations, the bottom hole temperature at 3000' would only
>be on the order of 60-70 degrees F. - not hot enough to do the job.

>I have drilled oil wells here in Oklahoma where you couldn't handle the bits
>when they were pulled from the hole because they were too hot.

Another serious problem with geothermal is that water, being the great
solvent that it is, will dissolve large quantities of minerals when very hot
and under high pressure. When the water is brought to the surface, the drop
in pressure and temperature cause minerals to come out of solution, being
both corrosive and creating large amounts of solids (scale) in pipes.
-- 
bwartman@teleport.COM  Almost live! from the City of Roses, Portland, OR


From dkulha@crl.com Tue Aug  9 08:47:54 EDT 1994
Article: 818 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: usenet link
Date: 9 Aug 1994 04:09:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 49
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408081517.A10509-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <2ce_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 7 Aug 1994, Cloyce Osborn wrote:

>  DS> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used
>  DS> to be a pretty friendly place with folks describing what
>  DS> they might want to do or try.  Lately its a lot like
>  DS> sci.energy with folks constantly trying to pick a
>  DS> fight.<sigh>

    Yep, and you might note a few of the usual combatants from there are 
here as well....

    Having said that, folks, please give it a chance....this conference 
is yet but a month old. There are some growing pains involved and many 
folks are just now discovering it. The latest Home Power magazine has an 
article on this forum and in speaking with Karen Perez this morning she's 
telling me there's a tremendous amount of interest. The folks from Home 
Power and a number of well known RE dealers and researchers should be 
joining the fray shortly which should provide lots of worthwhile info and 
discussion. This is going to get real good....

   If you see a message that pushes your buttons feel free to respond if 
you must but consider....That's exactly what some people thrive on. If 
you think someone is trying to egg you on it may be best to ignore them. 
Eventually they'll go looking elsewhere for a good debate. 

   Right now the conference participation is fairly small so a relatively 
few folks can be disruptive...in the months to come as more people join 
us this will be less of an issue.

    As far as things on the fidonet side of the fence go, I request 
patience. It took three years to develope that wide-area conference and a 
lot of sweat and money on my part. When I proposed this linkage several 
months ago there were no objections everyone who commented thought it 
would be worthwhile, letting us communicate and share our experience in a 
more global forum. A fair amount of work has gone into making this 
gateway happen so I for one don't want to abandon it just yet. In a 
couple months, if folks on the fidonet side are still interested in 
servering the linkage we'll vote on whether to do so or not. It would be 
a real shame to abandon the potential this newsgroup/mailing-list is just 
beginning to show so be patient for a bit please.

> 
> I second the Motion!
> 
> Regards.  Cloyce.
> 



From dkulha@crl.com Tue Aug  9 08:47:55 EDT 1994
Article: 819 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FAQ
Date: 9 Aug 1994 04:22:50 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408082157.A10509-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Cu89uM.20E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



At the moment there isn't a FAQ. The person who mentioned such was 
mistaken and said FAQ instead of mission statement. I hope to have a FAQ 
made up soon. Am in the midst of moving at the moment but should find 
time RSN....
     DCK




From jbvb@elf.com Tue Aug  9 08:47:56 EDT 1994
Article: 820 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James Van Bokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 9 Aug 1994 03:32:58 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <326tda$rn0@usenet.elf.com>
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows) writes:

>.... A local battery distributor (for a major
>manufacturer that is not intrastate 8-} ) says that he only gets one
>battery back for recycling for every 10-15 that he sells. The rest are
>going in dumps.

Either you've got a much weaker lead recycling law than we do up here
(I thought it was Federal, since I hang out in Live Free & Die
territory), or your locals aren't very bright.  Saving ~$5 off the
price of a new car battery is plenty of incentive for me to bring in
the old one, and when the time comes that I need to replace the 48 160
lb. batteries in my PV system's bank, I'm certainly going to have them
palletized ready to go on the same truck that brings the new ones.
If EV packs get swapped in order to avoid waiting for a recharge, 
recycling them will be even simpler.

Recycling lead is more or less the same issue as aluminum, since it can
be melted and purified at high temperatures.  Much less sensitive to
the quality of the input stream than plastics or paper.  Taks lots less
energy than smelting it from ore.  Fumes are toxic, but the same thing
happens when you attempt to recycle lots of other things, like alkaline
batteries.

jbvb


From jbvb@elf.com Tue Aug  9 08:47:57 EDT 1994
Article: 821 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James Van Bokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: RENEWABLES
Date: 9 Aug 1994 03:41:14 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <326tsq$s0i@usenet.elf.com>
References: <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <chuthluCu788q.IHA@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

chuthlu@netcom.com (Galen Jang) writes:

>Jack Brannan (Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
>: I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
>: the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
>: deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
>: two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
>: as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
>: comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
>: done in a practical way?

Iceland uses quite a bit of geothermal energy.  There was also a test plant
somewhere in California.

>  There's a decade long research project exploring this possibility in
>either Los Alamo or Sandia Laboratory, I am not sure which.  However,
>the project was cancelled by a budget cut.  The good thing about this
>idea is that the equipment needed can be adapted directly from oil
>drilling equipments.  Further researches are needed to see whether
>the technology can be made economically competitive.  Too bad we won't
>be able to find now.

The major problems with geothermal steam power that I've heard about are:

1. As another poster pointed out, most places dont' have hot enough rock
at shallow enough depths.  Many that do are (or were) volcanic.

2. the rock often cools down faster than they hoped, so the wells
don't last long.

3. the steam that comes back up often has lots of minerals dissolved in
it, so it's hard on pipes, valves & turbines, and they don't last.  The
mineral content also means that condensate is as nasty as mine lechate,
and you have to pump it back, or purify it before dumping it.

jbvb



From Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Tue Aug  9 08:47:58 EDT 1994
Article: 822 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nukes, On topic?
Message-ID: <cef_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 20:07:38 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 54
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tom Lent
Status: O
X-Status: 


 TL> I have to agree with Dick. Although I think Harry is 
 TL> sadly off base in his dreamy hopes that someday 
 TL> somewhere someone will come up with affordable safe 
 TL> nuclear power (c'mon Harry, it is time to stop throwing 
 TL> good money after bad), I strongly object to squelching 
 TL> his attempts to talk. If you don't want to listen, pass 
 TL> his statements over and move on to stuff you do want to 
 TL> read. 

       Tom, as the founder of the fidonet conference you are particpating in
and the co-founder of the conferences (newsgroup & mailing list) on the
internet and author of the conference mission statement I think I might be due
some say in this....the mission statement says....

Mission Statement ------

   The purpose of alt.energy.renewable is to promote the widest possible
   discussion on the subject of Practical Renewable Energy technology,
   it's application and development. The emphasis is on real-world systems
   and technology available now and how people apply and live with it. The
   conference is inspired by Home Power magazine and the practical, hands
   on, gentle on the earth, approach to RE they promote. Some subjects of
   discussion are: solar power, photvoltaics, hydropower, wind power, EVs,
   energy conservation, solar cookers and cooking, batteries, waste minim-
   ization, solar hot water, water pumping, and the products available in
   this field. We're into safe, clean home-made energy using the only nuke
   we'll ever need (convieniently 93 million miles away).

    So, anyhow I don't see how nuclear fits into any of this. It is neither
clean, safe or earth friendly. It isn't 93 million miles away either. Now, a
lot of what we discuss isn't home scale and, as an attorney pointed out neither
is solar energy renewable (heck the sun will burn out one of these days). Other
than providing a topic of debate I don't see that nuclear power has anything to
contribute to this conference. If it weren't for government subsidies and the
limiting of public liability that nuke plant operators and builders are
protected from (there's a cap on the maximum liability) nuclear power would be
a dead issue in this country (which it should be until we have the wisdom and
technology to deal with the hot waste products).
    I have no authority to stop anyone from discussing anything they want. Heck
if someone wants to discuss the best technique for skinning a baby harp seal
there's not a thing I can do about it. I merely suggested they take the pro
nuke discussion elsewhere. I'd really hate to turn the newsgroup into yet
another debate forum which seems to be the major content of newsgroups like
sci.energy these days. I wouldn't mind seeing folks debate the merits of
various PV panels, batteries or controllers but nkues seem a little silly to me
in light of it's shortcomings.
    The folks pushing a pronuclear stance are, of course able to do so but I
also will likely point out all of the points above. 
      DCK
       Founder and Moderator HOMEPOWR
       Cofounder alt.energy.renewable/renew-energy ml

P.S. - So, has anyone seen Elvis lately?.....


From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Tue Aug  9 08:47:59 EDT 1994
Article: 823 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <d0f_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 18:44:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >    With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
 >    if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
 >    plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
 >    need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
 >    is a 486/33, if that matters.

Would you consider a lap top?  I guess you already have the desk top 486 but it
would be SO much easier to use the lap top, especially if you got one that
expects 12VDC from its power unit.  But you've probably thought of that and
rejected the idea, right?
 


From 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug  9 08:48:00 EDT 1994
Article: 824 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-275-136-0!3rd.I
From: 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org (3rd I)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: travel tip
Message-ID: <d11_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 18:44:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Over 80 doors available for you!! (804)545-2097
Lines: 101
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

@ORIGIN :HOME OF BRE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE 253 (VA HUB) (1:275/154)   N
Ameripress
POB 6363
Virginia Beach, VA 23456

TRAVEL TIPS

The following articles available on travel tips. Most will range
from 1000 to 1500 words. Fill out the form below and send a check
made out to Ameripress.


Name____________________________________

Address_________________________________

City________________State_____Zip_______


____ 1. FOREIGN MONEY, WHICH RATE IS BEST? ($5)

Every international traveler has wondered about the  complexities
of  exchanging  dollars into foreign money. Which way is best?


____ 2. United States Single Travel Tips ($5

Singles  have always done better on their tax returns,  but  face
real  discrimination  in the world of travel. A  description  and
phone numbers of agencies and resorts that cater to the single.
This can be customized depending on your interest. Please specify.

___ for seniors ($5)

___ for students ($5)

___ for handicapped ($5)

____ 3. TRAVEL INSURANCE ($5)

Travel insurance- a necessity or just frivolous?


____ 4. TRAVEL DOCUMENTS ($5)

Passports, visas, driver's licenses, credit cards, etc.- a hassle
but necessary if you're traveling out of the states. A primer for
all foreign travelers.


____ 5. Medical Precautions ($5)

Another of those necessities that people often forget about  when
traveling at home or abroad.

____ 6. Transportation ($5)

You've decided to go, but how and where do you arrange the trip.


____ 7. Lodging ($5)

Some strategies to get that hotel reservation and alternatives.


____ 8. Packing for Your Trip ($5)

You're going away, but don't know what to take- a basic guide.


____ 9. A Guide to Money Safety. ($5)

Protecting yourself against disaster.


____ 10. Foreign Taxi Tips. ($5)

A 500 word primer on those crazy taxi drivers.


____ 11. For Travelers: Those Last Minute Details ($5)

Those last minute details every traveler should do before leaving
home on an extended trip.


____ 12. Photography Tips ($5)

A guide to taking better pictures and having a better trip too.


____ 13. Vacation Driving Tips ($5)

A guide to making an automobile trip better.

____ 14. Airline Passes: A Real Bargain ($5)

     Even  with  the recent airfare wars, prices of  flying  have
risen  dramatically  in  the  last  few  years.  One   relatively
unpublicized way to save money is with an air pass issued by the
individual airlines.


From hatunen@netcom.com Tue Aug  9 08:48:01 EDT 1994
Article: 825 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCu93KI.7Dr@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com> <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 04:38:42 GMT
Lines: 26
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com>,
MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
>(DaveHatunen) writes:
>
>"You need to know more electrical engineering."
>
>    Perhaps so - I never said I was any kind of expert. Then again - my
>lights are glowing, my ceiling fans are turning, and my TV and stereo are
>blaring away quite nicely from power generated through my electrical
>engineering experience.
>
>Shadowfax
>     (not doing to badly for self-taught)

My. All that from a secondary loop picking up emf fromoverhead power
lines? I'm impressed.




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From quartlow@netcom.com Tue Aug  9 08:48:02 EDT 1994
Article: 826 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: COMPUTER BACK/UP POWER
Message-ID: <quartlowCu9444.E9u@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <2e6_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 04:50:28 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

Randy Castillo (Randy.Castillo@125-131.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: Is it possible to use Solar Cells to bulit a Battery charger 
: for the clock chip on the mother board....

Sure, why not?
Simple but inefficient way:
12V 100 mA solar panel facing sun.
Schottky rectifier (cathode) in series with positive panel lead.
Schottky rectifier anode connects to:
Dropping resistor (56 ohm 1W) connects to cathode of:
Zener diode (1N5341A) connected across 6V CMOS battery.
Negative end of battery (and anode of Zener) to negative end of panel.

Values are for a 6V CMOS battery. Adjust values using Ohm's Law for
different voltages.

Simpler to substitute wall wart for panel.  (grin)

Hope this helps      --Len


From jac@fac.fadmin.unb.ca Tue Aug  9 13:29:41 EDT 1994
Article: 827 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.unb.ca!jac.fadmin.unb.ca!jac
From: jac@fac.fadmin.unb.ca (Jim Canning)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: DUNLITE wind power company??
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 16:57:45 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <jac.3.2E47B589@fac.fadmin.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.202.49.1
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

     Hi. A friend of mine has a wind powered generator made by  an Australian 
company. He called the phone number and the person that answered said the 
company had moved, but were still in existance. She didn't know their new 
number. Since we may need new parts??, I was wondering if anyone knew their 
number and/or address. 

     Dunlite Electrical Company  -  a division of PYE Industries Sales Pty. 
Ltd.  (another place it says Davey Dulite Division)

     They were in Hindmarsh, S. A. 5007

  Thanks in advance for any help. 

  Jim Canning, Univ. of New Brunswick, Fredericton, N. B.
  JAC@UNB.CA


From hatunen@netcom.com Tue Aug  9 22:10:09 EDT 1994
Article: 828 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: RENEWABLES
Message-ID: <hatunenCu9zsB.Fo6@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <dd2_9408051759@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <chuthluCu788q.IHA@netcom.com> <326tsq$s0i@usenet.elf.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 16:14:34 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <326tsq$s0i@usenet.elf.com>,
James Van Bokkelen <jbvb@elf.com> wrote:
>chuthlu@netcom.com (Galen Jang) writes:
>
>>Jack Brannan (Jack.Brannan@f255.n100.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
>>: I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
>>: the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
>>: deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
>>: two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
>>: as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
>>: comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
>>: done in a practical way?
>
>Iceland uses quite a bit of geothermal energy.  There was also a test plant
>somewhere in California.

It's not exactly a test plant, since it has been producing real levels
of power in the past. It's at The Geysers. I understand, though, that
it is already -- literally -- running out of steam.

[...]

>The major problems with geothermal steam power that I've heard about are:
>
>1. As another poster pointed out, most places dont' have hot enough rock
>at shallow enough depths.  Many that do are (or were) volcanic.
>
>2. the rock often cools down faster than they hoped, so the wells
>don't last long.
>
>3. the steam that comes back up often has lots of minerals dissolved in
>it, so it's hard on pipes, valves & turbines, and they don't last.  The
>mineral content also means that condensate is as nasty as mine lechate,
>and you have to pump it back, or purify it before dumping it.

Yep. Since Iceland sits on the spreading rift of the Atlantic Ocean, it
has so much geothermal heat that it will never really run out. At
worst, they only need to move the pipes. And hope the next rift
eruption doesn't destroy the power plant. But Iceland is a very special
case.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com Tue Aug  9 22:10:10 EDT 1994
Article: 829 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
Subject: help w/ batt. memory please
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <Cu9z9A.5HrG@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 16:03:09 GMT
Reply-To: arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

a question about recharging batteries.
I have read that batteries have memory. In the
case of AA batteries in my tape player, after about
four hours, they need a recharge. Though they can
no longer power the player, there is still power
in them. Shouldn't I find a way to completely drain
them before the recharge? How would I go about doing
that?
Thanks in advance..
Ted Arbogast



From WSTERBA@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu Tue Aug  9 22:10:11 EDT 1994
Article: 830 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: WSTERBA@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Date: 9 Aug 1994 19:22:52 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 43
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <940809141412.17712@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


  Hi,
  As a new "member" I would like to respond to Cloyce and Don about
the idea of
  breaking the usenet link.  I am one of those people who has come
  to this list via HomePower's information aout it! I was thrilled to
see
  that there is a network for this and hope you won't suddenly shut
those
  of us who have just gained access out. I suppose it would help to
have
  a FAQ to make clear what the scientific level, intent and areas of
  legitimate discussion are.  I find myself wondering if I am on the 
  "wrong" list. I am an on-the-grid "normal-kind-of-person" with no
tremendous
  amount of electrical knowledege (okay, I had a couple of years of
physics
  a bazillion years ago  (Like my scientific vocabulary? :-)  ) , but
  one who is interested in reducing (and perhaps eventually
eliminating)
  grid use.  I was hoping this would be the kind of place to meet
others
  who were working toward the same goals. I will however have to ask
some  of those (oh so elementary) questions about enrgy terms etc. and
wonder if
  perhaps I am too much of a novitiate for this list. (I'm especially
  interested in problems for people in extremely cold areas- the snow
  on the PVs problem and questions of where to put batteries to avoid
  gas build-up problems in the house. I wanted to use an energy shed,
but am
  convinced that with temperatures in Minnesota of minus 30 degrees,
the 
  batteries would not function without some sort of heating.)
  Perhaps we will eventually need to have two lists one for the
brilliant
  scientist-types and one for the beginners (like myself) if the
former
  feel annoyed at the questions asked by people like myself.  
  Anyway, those are the thoughts of a newcomer!  Hi, and let me know
if I should find a different list.

Wendy Sterba     WSTERBA@CSBSJU.EDU   College of St Benedict/St John's U
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." Pablo Picasso


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Tue Aug  9 22:10:12 EDT 1994
Article: 831 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.776453204@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 17:26:44 GMT
References: <25d_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <325nnq$fom@search01.news.aol.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <325nnq$fom@search01.news.aol.com> mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) writes:

|In article <25d_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
|Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tom Lent) writes:

|"It is a dangerous world when we start deciding who can talk and who
|can't."


|     Actually it was the nuclear aspect that started the whole
|problem/thread - we've already determined that it it NOT a renewable
|resource and therefore has little or no place on alt.energy.RENEWABLE.
|Beyond that I'm game to listen to what anyone has to say provided it
|remains with in the FAQ guidelines for this Newsgroup.

If nuclear is not renewable, than neither is solar.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM Tue Aug  9 22:10:12 EDT 1994
Article: 832 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!attatl!ncratl!mwilson
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Sender: news@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <mwilson.776453302@ncratl>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 17:28:22 GMT
References: <01HFNYJHDWFA9AMEQN@mr.sen.ca.gov>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ncratl.atlantaga.ncr.com
Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions
Lines: 10
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <01HFNYJHDWFA9AMEQN@mr.sen.ca.gov> Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV writes:

|UNSUBSCRIBE

If you are using nn try using the capital 'U' and answer yes.
-- 
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark.O.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


From dmarti@sun1.iusb.indiana.edu Tue Aug  9 22:29:38 EDT 1994
Article: 833 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!sun2!sun1.iusb.indiana.edu!dmarti
From: dmarti@sun1.iusb.indiana.edu (Don Marti)
Subject: Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS
Message-ID: <Cu9vJ9.IwM@sun2.iusb.indiana.edu>
Sender: usenet@sun2.iusb.indiana.edu (USENET poster)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sun1.iusb.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University South Bend
References: <25b_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <325tq8$ntg@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 14:42:45 GMT
Lines: 31
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <325tq8$ntg@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda) writes:

>Tom Lent (Tom.Lent@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
>: If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you have the
>: option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil fuel nasties and
>: cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is generally safer to handle).
>
>>What is soydiesel? Is it a fuel made from biomass?

	It's basically soybean oil. There are also buses running on
corn oil, trucks that burn used motor oil --  and a few people who
drive their diesel pickups to local restaurants, collect used
deep-fryer oil, mix it with kerosene, and filter it. And every once
in a while some trucking company gets fined for tax evasion for burning
high-grade home heating oil (low tax) instead of diesel fuel
(higher tax)

	Diesel engines are pretty versatile. Rudolf Diesel actually
started out using vegetable oils instead of fossil fuels.

	Another oil that keeps getting mentioned as a possible
alternate diesel fuel is hemp seed oil -- but I don't know of
anyone burning this stuff yet.




-- 
Don Marti
dmarti@sun1.iusb.indiana.edu


From Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:42 EDT 1994
Article: 834 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!3-640-217-111!Charles.Senescall
From: Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: magnetic things
Message-ID: <a2d_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:44:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: I got FrontDoor working...Yay!!!!!
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Steve Wotherspoon
Status: O
X-Status: 

Yo Steve,

 > I've got some more info on this magnetic water which removes
 > some of the hocus pocus from the device.

 > It seems the problem with scaling in boilers is due to heat and
 > calcium deposits from the water supply.

 > How's this for a bit of bush reasoning.......the metal boiler is

 > these magnets do is to realign the water so it is
 > discharged from the N pole thereby making the ions positively
 > charged thus causing the calcium to be repelled from the walls.

 > These magnets have been working at Sydney Hospital for many
 > years now without the need to periodically clean their boilers.

 > Now I think I have the diesal theory worked out but I thought
 > I'd run this past a few fellows first.

You've lost me a bit here :) ... how does the boiler solution relate to
improving the efficiency of the diesel engines; or is that a separate matter
your looking into?

Kind Regards
Charles


From Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:44 EDT 1994
Article: 835 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!3-640-217-111!Charles.Senescall
From: Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Off the Grid
Message-ID: <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:39:01 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Data Tech, Bris, QLD, Australia
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Steve Wotherspoon
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Steve,

 >  CS> Did you see the press releases on the solar powered house built
 >  CS> at Coolum which was a cooperative effort between many parties
 >  CS> including electricity providers? It looked very promising.

 > Did you know that Sydney electricity will purchase power any
 > householder feeds into the grid? It is going to be interesting
 > to see these developments.

 > I mean, during the day huge collectors could supply house needs
 > and feed the system. Sorta turn the meter backwards and then at
 > night the meter turns forwards and I suppose the best result
 > would be a balanced meter at the end of each day.

i was very interested to hear this as this idea was mentioned in relation to
the Coolum project house which generated excess electricity during the day but
required some grid power at night. I would imagine that this concept would help
with storage costs in that it may be more efficient to sell the electricity
back to the grid rather than install larger of-line storage facilities.

Let me know if you have any more info come in on this type of project.

I'd love to send SEQEB a bill one day :).

Cheers
Charles


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:46 EDT 1994
Article: 836 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Windpower And Disarmamen
Message-ID: <a2f_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 22:08:34 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (28 Jul 94) Gale Barrows wrote to Doug Bashford...

GB> DB> RG> North Dakota has some of the most constant and high prevailing
GB> DB> RG> winds in the nation, his idea is makes great sense, even to a
GB> DB> RG> sceptic like me.
GB>
GB> Kind of a moot question as the terms of the treaties under which the
GB> missle sites are being asbandoned are that the silos and control centers
GB> be destroyeed by explosives or by filling them with concrete. One silo
GB> and control center of each style of system may be saved as a historical
GB> site. Here in South Dakota, we have the same situation as in ND. As a
GB> poart of the purchase agreement with the landholders when the sites were
GB> built, the sites are to be sold back to the previous owner at below cost
GB> when the sites are no longer needed for missile uses. Several landowners
GB> have tryed to get the silos and control centers also as these would
GB> make good storage structures for water etc as well as possible dwellings.
GB> Both the US and Russia say no, they must be destroyed under the terms
GB> of the treaties.

        It's a shame all of those sights have to go to wast.  BTW, did
        you get the info on fixing the carb on your old piece of
        equipment?  If not, I can netmail it to you.


Tony

... "Bother" said Pooh, and then he pulled his .45 and shot the intruder.


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:48 EDT 1994
Article: 837 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Biofuels
Message-ID: <a30_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 22:11:51 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dennis Keim
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) Dennis Keim wrote to Tom Lent...

DK> Seems like I recall that castor bean oil is good in the fuel tank or the
DK> oil sump of Diesel units.  Other vegetable oils work too I understand.
DK> I'm not sure what the problems all are.  There are probably some.

        There are definitely problems with castor bean oil.  It spoils
        and curds and plugs up oil systems.  Castor is a great racing
        lube but for everyday use it doesn't cut it.  We used to burn
        castor in 2 stroke motorcycles and the premix would only be good
        for the day.  In 4 stroke engines the oil is drained after the
        race usually while the engine is still warm.

Tony

... The scroungers are coming, the scroungers are coming ...


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:53 EDT 1994
Article: 838 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <a31_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 22:17:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (06 Aug 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Dave Skinner...

 CO>  DS> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used
 CO>  DS> to be a pretty friendly place with folks describing what
 CO>  DS> they might want to do or try.  Lately its a lot like
 CO>  DS> sci.energy with folks constantly trying to pick a
 CO>  DS> fight.<sigh>
 CO> 
 CO> I second the Motion!


        Count me in.  Usenet has been a wast here.

Tony

... The scroungers are coming, the scroungers are coming ...


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:54 EDT 1994
Article: 839 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a32_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 22:18:27 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor A. Carreno
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (28 Jul 94) Victor A. Carreno wrote to All...

 VA> Is That Additive Really A Negative?
 VA> Article and Photos by Fred Rau
 VA> ROAD RIDER/August 1992/Pg 15

        Thanx for the post.  It's what I've been telling people for
        years and most write me off as being opinionated.  Do you know
        if Road Rider is still in print?  I haven't read a motorcycle
        rag since I closed my bike shop about 11 years ago.

Tony

... Gute genug feur die Dame mit Der ich gehe.


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:55 EDT 1994
Article: 840 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <a41_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 07:45:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used to be a pretty
-> friendly place with folks describing what they might want to do or try.

Afraid I'm gonna have to second the motion Dave.  They come into a perfectly
happy echo and start throwing their weight around, criticizing the regulars.

If the situation doesn't show drastic improvement I'm probably just gonna drop
this echo as another casualty on the "Information Highway."

(and I used to look forward to it more than any other of the sixty or so I
carry.)

^..^


From Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:56 EDT 1994
Article: 841 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3624-7-0!Terry.Buyers
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: GAS SAVING TECHNOLOGIES
Message-ID: <a5e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 04:07:56 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Schrodinger's Catbox (803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jens Hoffman
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a msg on <Aug 04 14:01>, Jens Hoffman of 1:343/186 writes:

 JH>         If you are not afraid to work on a commission & 
 JH> performance basis and are interested in this opportunity, 
 JH> please >FAX OR MAIL< your resume to Mr. Jens Hoffmann at GAS 
 JH> SAVER TECHNOLOGIES, 401 NE 40th St., Suite 304, Seattle, WA 
 JH> 98105, fax: 206-547-8675 (* 51)

Email to this system or to terry.buyers@catbox.lakes.trenton.sc.us - I'll try
your product/methods on our company vehicles, and if it works, sell it out of
our store or via our field sales people - and we do advertise
nationally/internationally on one of the shortwave stations.

  


From Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:25:58 EDT 1994
Article: 842 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3624-7-0!Terry.Buyers
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 05:Additives; Beware!
Message-ID: <a5f_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 04:26:34 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Schrodinger's Catbox (803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Victor A. Carreno
Status: O
X-Status: 

Odd, though, isn't it. We've been testing PTFE (GunSlick) treatment in rifle
barrels and have found there if works very well in decreasing friction - about
8% in .30 cal by chronographed speed difference with the same loads - and made
cleaning of barrels of copper fouling considerably easier. Also seems to
impregnate well into bolt lug surfaces to smooth the action down and ease
cycling of the mechanism in a semi-auto or machine gun. 

Everything has its place...

  


From Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:25:59 EDT 1994
Article: 843 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Dave.Willey
From: Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dave Willey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <a62_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 18:36:42 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 

>From:    Dave Skinner
>To:      Don Kuhla                         Msg #498, Aug-04-94 20:43:02
>Subject: usenet link
 
>Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used to be a pretty
>friendly place with folks describing what they might want to do or try.
>Lately its a lot like sci.energy with folks constantly trying to pick a
>fight.<sigh> Bigger is not always better.  I'm  sure  that  anyone  who
>wants  one  can  find a sci.energy feed.  Heck, I'll put it on hold for
>anyone who wants it (hayes 28.8 on the nodelisted number).
 
 
As  much  as I hate to admit defeat, I tend to agree.  This USED to be a
very interesting place to exchange ideas on REAL-WORLD  "small"  (single
family  sized)  power systems using proven designs, as well as new tech.
ideas that were being REALISTICALLY developed.  I  for  one  am  getting
tired  of this nuke dribble.  So far several people have posted messages
on  pro  nuke  w/o  EVER  backing  their  statements  up   with   proven
references/quotes/facts.  Till someone proves to me a design that's 100%
safe to handle nuke on a real world/day to day bases for a  avg.  family
size  power  system, I say cut 'em loose and lets get back to real world
systems and not "pie-in-the-sky" dreaming.
 
Don-  Have  you noticed that the daily number of messages from the users
on the FIDO side of the pond seems to be getting smaller? (This based on
an  "off-the-cuff"  unofficial  observation  by  a  single long time Alt
Energy Echo user.) Could it be that your audience  that  you  wanted  to
address  is  finding  it not worth the bother to try to participate in a
discussion when certain other people won't realize that whether  or  not
nukes  is good or bad, that nukes isn't what we're here to discuss?  Bad
example, but it would be equivalent to  having  a  echo  for  owners  of
private  small  aircraft,  and having a number of people also discussing
Amtrak in that same echo.  Both get you from point "A" to point "B", but
one  is owned buy a single person/small group that can fly anywhere, and
the other is a huge government subsidized  business  that's  floundering
around  in  its  long  drawn  out death throws . Just not related to the
mission statement of that echo.
 
I've had this funny feeling that it's  not  so much that certain  people
actually  support  nukes,  as  much  as they get their jollys at getting
other users pissed-off. (What's known as "stirring the pot").
 
 
      _\\///_
     (' O-O ')   CUL AND 73!
  --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------------------------------------
 | de KD6KWM/QRP               ax25 bbs--> WX3K.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA |
 | Dave Willey                     pbbs-->    KD6KWM-1 on 145.09 |
 |                              FIDONET-->               1:125/7 |
  ---------------------------------------------------------------


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:01 EDT 1994
Article: 844 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12volts
Message-ID: <a63_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 01:55:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

CO>There are also 12 volt florescent units available and they are also very
CO>efficient.  As I replace light fixtures in my travel
CO>trailer, I'm converting over to them.

I have seen ads for these with both the screw in base as used for 110
lights and with bayonette bases for car type sockets. Also have seen
adapters to fit screw in bulbs to bayonette sockets and vice-versa.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:02 EDT 1994
Article: 845 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Storing Energy
Message-ID: <a64_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 01:59:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry Gowdy
Status: O
X-Status: 

LG> JB> Does anyone out there know of a good mechanical way of storing
LG> JB> energy.Before the invention of the battery  was there other ways to
LG> JB> store  energy efficinetly

LG>        If you have a hill or such on your land, you can store water in
LG> a tank, which can later be used to drive a generator by gravity feed.
LG> Not the greatest storage, but it has other benefits too like not
LG> needing a pump to supply water to the house, and the ability to water
LG> the garden all at the same time.

Yhe tank can also be in the atic or on the roof. If in the atic,
problems from freezing can be reduced although capacity may be reduced
if you don't have a big atic. best way on new construction might be to
build what would essentialy be an extra story on the house with the
extra level being water tank. This would help keep the house cool in
summer as well as possibly retaining heat for the winter.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:03 EDT 1994
Article: 846 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: swimming pool heater
Message-ID: <a65_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 02:04:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 


 IW> If anyone knows anything about making ice, I'm interested. When pigs
 IW> can fly, I'm going to have an ice rink. But I don't have grid power,
 IW> so I need some alternative power source. Any ideas?

How about a slab of concrete and roller blade skates ???  I have been
seeing quite a few folks playing "ice" hockey on parking lots this
summer. The players claim there is little difference in the skills
needed between ice and concrete or blacktop.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:05 EDT 1994
Article: 847 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a66_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 02:23:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

DP>IW> DH> On the subject of generators, has anyone heard of portable
DP>IW> DH> generators that can run on propane? Do they exist, how long
DP>IW> DH> do they run on a tank of gas, do they cost more than
DP>IW> DH> gasoline, etc?

DP>They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
DP>converting to propane <cheaper>

What is usualy used for the conversion and where can the parts be had?


DP>I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
DP>experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
DP>have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

What brand engine? Might need info on that make. Right now I am running
a Hercules 141.5 cu.in. engine in my present favorite vehicle. Have a
Hercules Hupp 2cyl air cooled engine in another vehicle as well. I
always figured something like the military Continental Multi-fuel engine
with a propane adapter would be a good choice for running a generator or
other equipment. The thing would burn about any flammable liquid or run
on propane. just use whatever fuel you have handy or is cheap.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:06 EDT 1994
Article: 848 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <a67_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 02:41:08 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK>      There are many manufacturers offering propane versions of their
DK>products and even a few offering "tri-fuel" versions (gas, propane,
DK>nat.gas). There are also some aftermarket kits for converting popular
DK>generators to dual/tri fuel configurations. Will keep you in mind next
DK>time I run across this info.

I too would be interested in propane conversion kits for small engines
(larger ones also) but do not know sources. One thing that I find hard
to understand is a natural gas fired generator. Don't you just about
have to be (in most cases) in a city or town to get NG ? If so, whenever
the electricity is off for a long enough period to require a generator,
the cause is most likely a disaster. If there is a disaster of the type
where electricity is lost, would not NG also be cut off ???

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:07 EDT 1994
Article: 849 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <a68_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 02:45:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

EH>-> Are there any 'cheap' methods of conversion from gas to nat'l gas?


EH>Sure!  It doesn't get much cheaper than a gas pipe stuffed down the carb
EH>throat to near the throttle butterfly. Or you can "spud" a gas carburetor by
EH>drilling through the side near the venturii to introduce a vapor entry.
EH>I have a method I use on Tillotson carbs where I just
EH>remove the float bowl and
EH>screw a vapor connector straight into the pickup where the main jet goes for
EH>gasoline.

EH>In any or all these systems the vapor-fuel pressure must be regulated
EH>carefully, but with a little care either system will remain fairly
EH>throttleable, and therefore governable.

EH>Crude, but CHEAP and I've used these systems for years.

I would assume this would also work with propane. If so, do you have
anything put down on paper in greater detail as to how this is done?
Pictures would help for those of us who are easily confused !!! If you
have such a "instruction sheet", how can we get ahold of it ??? It seems
this would be a good subject for a book or booklet. Should have plenty
of buyers !!!

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:07 EDT 1994
Article: 850 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <a69_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 02:56:12 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

AJF>Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
AJF>house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

AJF>(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the
AJF>"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it
AJF>great enough to worry about?

AJF>Possibly someone could direct me to a source for this kind of information
AJF>relative to the design of energy efficient housing and alternate energy
AJF>systems.

True south can easily and cheaply be found with a compass and a US
Geological Survey topographic map. The maps have the magnetic/true
deviation for the area of the map printed on them. The maps cost about
$3 and are available through surveyors in many cases. Surveyors can tell
you where to get them if they don't have them.   If there is an air
field nearby, personell there or pilots who use the strip can also tell
you the deviation. The maps are of relatively small areas and are very
handy for other purposes also. They will include buildings and roads
ranging from Interstates to dirt tracks.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:08 EDT 1994
Article: 851 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: No Opposing Viewpoints P
Message-ID: <a6a_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 03:15:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

HHC>Sorry Don, I thought Usenet was for free and open discussions, including
HHC>the presentation of opposing viewpoints.  Based on your comments, it
HHC>isn't.

Hey, I didn't know this was usenet !!! I thought it was a private (as
opposed to government) Fido-net echo not subject to government
(constitutional) restrictions but rather open to all willing to follow
the rules as laid down by the moderator.

HHC>The only question that remains is: are you authorized to speak for all
HHC>of its participants?

As far as I am concerned you do *usualy* !!! 8-) You have my
authorization simply by my use of this echo which carries the implied
consent to abide by your rules.

Even though I do not agree with some of the opinions of other users, (I
am pro-nuke and see electric cars as of little use *in my environment*
but more of a technical study) I find the echo to be of great interest
and use for my acumulation of knowledge. (whatever usefulness that might
be 8-} )

Be glad you don't have troubles and headaches here like BK does over in
FA and RTKBA !!! And about all of us over there have given him problems
at one time or another !!! I try to be good boy there and here but
sometimes I am reminded I have been a bad boy. Thanks for puttin up with
me. (could have taken this netmail or as a message to the my sysop (you)
but I wanted my feelings on this public.)


 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:09 EDT 1994
Article: 852 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Message-ID: <a6b_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 03:25:16 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry London
Status: O
X-Status: 

LL>In article <30q073$t8s@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net
LL>(Harry H Conover) writes:


LL>>I was under the mistaken opion that this was
LL>>an unmoderated newsgroup for open, uncensored discussion, including
LL>>presentation of dissenting viewpoints.

LL>You could make that statement about _any_ newsgroup. This one obviously
LL>has a certain useful focus to set it apart from the other energy newsgroups.
LL>Why can't you go along with this instead of making a stink. Many of us
LL>would like to get something out of this conference and not have to
LL>wade through distracting, irrelevent rhetoric.

You both seem to be under a slight misunderstanding. This is not a
usenet newsgroup. It is a fidonet echo which has been carried over onto
usenet throough the courtesy of Don K., the moderator who has absolute
control over the contents until voted out by the *fidonet users* or
until a new echo is formed and this one dies from lack of use. Fidonet
and Usenet seemingly operate under somewhat different rules of order.


 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:09 EDT 1994
Article: 853 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Message-ID: <a6c_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 03:39:18 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 45
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK>On 23 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

Asif you needed reminding !!!!!!  8-)

DK>> Although I do resent your inference that I have some financial issues
DK>> or involvement fueling my posts, I can assure you that this is not the
DK>> case.

         deletions

DK>> Come on Don, come clean on this.  We can't have the kettle
DK>> callin the pot black, can we Don?

DK>   Home Power is the name of a magazine which touts itself as the "Hands
DK>on Journal or Home-made power" that deals with renewable energy and
DK>specifically it's practical home-scale system application. Home Power
DK>provided the inspiration for the conference we started about 3 years ago
DK>and has been kind enough to provide us with the text and graphics from
DK>their articles over the years to post online free of charge. I certainly
DK>hope they benefit some from this exposure at very least to the extent
DK>that their allowing us to share the back issues online (37 of 41 issues)
DK>cuts into their back issue sales. They're doing great work, good hard
DK>nosed factual reporting and have done a lot to promote the growth of
DK>renewables technology. They aren't getting rich either though have
DK>recently passed up a couple offers to buy their magazine which would have
DK>let them retire in comfort. Dedicated and good people. I do receive some
DK>compensation from them to the extent that my subscription always seems to
DK>automagically get renewed gratis (they did buy me a great burrito at
DK>dinner last sunday night too).

I sure wouldn't call a burrito payola !!!!  Unless they bought the Tums
also  !!!!

I do notice I have yet to read "Your Gone" as another moderator (he
whose picture adorns your wall) is all too often forced to post. (and in
which I am mostly supportive) I view these echos originating on the Fido
system to be "coffee klatches" where we can gather around an electronic
table for a cuppa and discuss what we have interests in. Those who step
beyond the realm of friendly interchange of info can be asked to find
another table.

     Thanks for a good friendly coffee table !!!


 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:10 EDT 1994
Article: 854 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <a6d_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 04:11:20 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Andy Dingley
Status: O
X-Status: 

AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, to deal wit
AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.

AD>What can you do with the gas from such a digester ? Has anyone used it for
AD>running a generator ? Water & space heating ?  How "clean" is the gas, in
AD>terms of burner clogging ?

I, for one, would dearly love to have your "raw materials" you would
feed the digestor. (I am assuming you are largely interested in disposal
with an energy payback being secondary) It would sure save me time and
money to have the stuff to spread on my land to improve it's
productivity. I used to be able to get the local septic tank cleaner to
dump the "honey wagon" on the place but that has now been prohibited for
reasons I can not fathom. Now he has to dump into a municipal processing
plant at greater expense and I have to use manufactured fertilizers also
at greater expense without the organic materials to add erosion
resistance.

Sorry if I might be percieved to be off topic. I just hate to see a
valuable commodity not be used for no defendable reason. Using those
materials to other ends is also entirely acceptable if the use they are
put to is beneficial as would be power generation, provided there was a
real desireable advantage to such use.

There have been many experiments, some of which have been highly
successful, here for  dairies, hog farms, feed lots, chicken farms,
etc.. You might well contact such sources as agriculture oriented
universities. One such would be the Agriculture Extension Service, South
Dakota State University, Brookings, SD, (zip code unknown) . These folks
do a lot of such research and studies as well as keep up with
developments from other sources.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 10 08:26:11 EDT 1994
Article: 855 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Dave.Willey
From: Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dave Willey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Peltier Junctions
Message-ID: <a6e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 05:06:50 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 50
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all,
 
     Someone  here  on  the  echo  recently  requested  info  on Peltier
Junctions.  Here is part of a data  sheet  that  comes  with  a  Peltier
Junction that is sold where I work.  (The business name is not listed as
I'm not trying to drum up sales. I'm just providing the info  for  those
who  are  interested.  Check  in NUTS & VOLTS mag. for several different
dealers.) They ain't cheap! It's 1.17" x 1.17" x  .12"  thick  and  cost
about $25-30 US.)
 
    Alas, ASCII graphics doesn't allow me to repoduce the several graphs
of performance. If your THAT hungry for info, send a  SASE  and  a  note
stating that you want the heat pump data sheet, to the address below and
I'll photocopy the sheet and send it back. - DSW
 
 
PELTIER JUNCTION
THERMOELECTRIC HEAT PUMP
 
     Thermoelectric  coolers  are  solid  state  heat  pumps.   Heat  is
"pumped" from the cold surface to the hot surface when a DC  current  is
applied  to  the  device.  A heat sink is required on the hot surface to
effectively remove the  heat  pumped  from  the  cold  surface.   It  is
possible  to  obtain  a  no-load  temperature  differential  of up to 65
degrees C with heat removal.
 
     The  two  greatest  concerns  for  reliability  are overheating and
breakage.  Remember that the junctions surface are of a ceramic material
and  are  easily  broken.   Heat generated by the pumping action pumping
action must be removed with an appropriate heat sink.
 
     The  modules  will operate with voltages from 3 to 12 volts.  It is
important to remember at a higher voltages with the  resulting  increase
in current, the heat sink must be of appropriate size.
 
NOTE:  COLD  PLATE  1/8"  COPPER  OR 1/4" ALUMINUM THICKNESS.  COAT BOTH
SIDES OF JUNCTION WITH A THIN LAYER OF HEAT SINK COMPOUND.
 
BOLTS USED TO ASSEMBLE MODULES MUST PROVIDE INSULATION BETWEEN  HOT  AND
COLD SIDE.  NYLON HARDWARE OR INSULATED WASHERS MAY BE USED.
 
 
      _\\///_
     (' O-O ')   CUL AND 73!
  --ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------------------------------------
 | de KD6KWM/QRP               ax25 bbs--> WX3K.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA |
 | Dave Willey                     pbbs-->    KD6KWM-1 on 145.09 |
 | P. O. Box 3514               FIDONET-->               1:125/7 |
 | Santa Rosa, CA. 95402      VOICE/FAX-->        (707) 577-0558 |
  ---------------------------------------------------------------


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:26:12 EDT 1994
Article: 856 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12volts
Message-ID: <a76_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Jul 94 22:06:32 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (28 Jul 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Gary Pagac...

 CO> You're right, Gary, headlamps do draw a lot of current but I don't
 CO> think you'd use them for indoor illumination.  Larry was thinking of
 CO> smaller bulbs more on the order of tail light bulbs or dome light
 CO> bulbs.  I'm familiar with the screw in 12 volt bulbs you mention and
 CO> they work very well.  One caution, though.  Be careful not to
 CO> inadvertently screw one of them into a 120 volt socket (they act just
 CO> like a flash bulb!).

        Righto!  I have a 12 volt trouble light and the bulbe in it
        looks just like a 110 volt bulb.

Tony

... Plagiarize, but please call it research!


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:26:12 EDT 1994
Article: 857 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-290-35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Message-ID: <a7a_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 20:50:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -- The Black Stratocaster
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 04Aug94 Dick Dillman wrote to Harry Conover:

  DD> No opposing viewpoints?  Surely this can't be taken seriously.  While
  DD> far from a nuke fan myself I must support Harry and his right to
  DD> propose alternatives.  As he says, isn't a free and open exchange of
  DD> ideas what it's all about?

   Harry and Dick are right: a free and open exchange *are* what it's all
about.  But a free and open exchange of what?  The problem, as I see it, is one
of appropriateness.
   I don't know about anyone else, but I read this Fidonet echo as HOMEPOWR. 
By definition, "home power" is that energy produced for and used in the *home*,
not by industry or for the grid or whatever.  What does nuclear have to do with
renewable home power generation?  I am yet to see a reactor sitting next to
someone's patio furniture and I hope I never do.
   This discussion is not be about limiting someone's speech or expression, but
providing guidelines to *enhance* communication and information exchange for
those interested, in this particular case, in the notion of generating
renewable power for sustainable, low-impact living.  Let's stick to what's
appropriate, thus facilitating the mission of this joint echo-newsgroup.  If
I'm way out of line here, then someone please set me straight.

DH


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 10 08:26:13 EDT 1994
Article: 858 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-290-35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS
Message-ID: <a7b_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 20:52:37 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -- The Black Stratocaster
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tom Lent
Status: O
X-Status: 


  TL> If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you have
  TL> the option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil fuel
  TL> nasties and cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is generally
  TL> safer to handle).
  TL> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
  TL>  * Origin: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA  (125/21)

I have never heard of soydiesel.  Where does one get it?  Can I make this
stuff?

DH


From scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:00 EDT 1994
Article: 859 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!cherokee!da_vinci!lookout!scollins
From: scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com (Steven Collins)
Subject: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Sender: news@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (IT Netnews)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lookout
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 14:34:24 GMT
Lines: 9
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113325 misc.rural:11090 alt.energy.renewable:859 sci.energy:24007
Status: O
X-Status: 


 SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
 200 gal/hour
 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
 $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
  
scollins@uswest.com 
-- 


From keatinga@med.unc.edu Wed Aug 10 23:08:01 EDT 1994
Article: 860 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!news!keatinga
From: keatinga@med.unc.edu (Arthur W. Keating)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Question: Phase change thermal storage
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 94 13:04:32 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <keatinga.1126911512A@news.oit.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: batmac.med.unc.edu
X-Newsreader: VersaTerm Link v1.1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi alt.energy.remewablers:
  Anyone out there on the wire care to comment on using sodium acetate as a
phase-change heat storage medium?  I'm just curious why this would'nt be the
ticket for domestic hot water applications.

Thanks,
 Art Keating (keatinga@med.unc.edu)


From patriot@kaiwan.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:01 EDT 1994
Article: 861 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.uoregon.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!wsrcc.com!wetware!kaiwan.com!not-for-mail
From: patriot@kaiwan.com (Nate)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Best charge controller?
Date: 10 Aug 1994 06:32:42 -0700
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310/527-4279,818/756-0180,714/638-4133)
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32aktq$mi2@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
References: <gbalfanzCtwx32.EKr@netcom.com> <F2HHkS9cpsq4069yn@teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

With wind I think you will have to worry about over charge, a shunt type 
regulator with a load of some type, like water heating? would be good. Do 
you have access to home power, they have lots of stuff you can build.



: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz) wrote:
: > What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.
: > 
: > I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.
: > 

-- 
****** ERROR - 02 SYNTAX    (ahh... the days of teletypes at 110 baud)



From plachape@moose.uvm.edu Wed Aug 10 23:08:02 EDT 1994
Article: 862 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!emba-news.uvm.edu!moose.uvm.edu!plachape
From: plachape@moose.uvm.edu (Paul R. Lachapelle)
Subject: SOLAR TOILET???
Message-ID: <1994Aug10.164620.23385@emba.uvm.edu>
Sender: news@emba.uvm.edu
Organization: EMBA Computer Facility, University of Vermont
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 16:46:20 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone have info on SOLAR TOILETS and more specifically solar 
toilets used in backcountry facilities?
Thanks
plachapelle@moose.uvm.edu



From dougmclean@aol.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:03 EDT 1994
Article: 863 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dougmclean@aol.com (DougMcLean)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Funding sources for hydro project
Date: 10 Aug 1994 14:31:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 58
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32b6d5$4ar@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello to all.

I'm looking for ideas for how our organization could get money for
upgrading our micro-hydro system.  Any kind of leads, tips, and creative
ideas are welcome for finding funding including grants, loans, matching
grants, or donations.

The pertinent facts and possible approaches are:

1) The site is seven miles from the power grid, too far to connect
economically.  (Besides we don't want to.)  We currently generate AC from
solar and hydro (1.5 kW).  As we have grown, that capacity is maxed out. 
We can barely keep the lights and freezers running to preserve the farm's
produce.  We have designed and have water rights for a 14 kW upgrade that
will serve our needs into the forseeable future.
 
2) We are a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) non-profit educational organization.  The
site is a rural adjunct to a private elementary school in the city. 
Children from the school will be able to come here for outdoor education
programs, and to live and work on a farm for a period of time.  We will
also be offering workshops on sustainable agriculture and renewable
energy.  The upgrade would allow the development of the educational aspect
to proceed.

3) Starting next year, we intend to offer hands-on workshops on hydro and
solar - how to assess a site, design, install, and maintain.  The upgrade
could be a demonstration project for small hydro.

4) The river is in an adjudicated watershed and sections downstream have
been proposed as protected habitat.  The hydro system is designed to
minimize diversion of water from the river by automatically adjusting
diversion gates to exactly match demand, and by shedding loads by priority
when the river is low.  Though hydro is a non-consumptive use, less
diversion means less impact, especially during low water.  Maybe there is
some agency that funds private efforts at water conservation or habitat
protection.

5) We are in an economically depressed county.  The development of the
location as a workshop center would bring economic benefit to the area.

6) Having the upgrade would allow us to stop burning propane, gasoline,
and wood.

7) Total material costs for the whole job is about $45,000.

Does anyone have a sense which of these approaches is worth pursuing, and
how to do it?  Any other ideas?  I've been in touch with the federal and
state Depts. of Energy, and US Dept. of Agriculture, without results so
far.  But there are so many sub-departments and agencies, I'm not sure
I've checked out all the possibilities.  Also, I have not checked out
private funding.  Any kind of brainstorming is welcome; I'll follow up all
leads.

Thanks in advance.

Doug Mclean
The School
Reserve, New Mexico


From DBHolmes@aol.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:03 EDT 1994
Article: 864 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars battery recycling
Date: 10 Aug 1994 22:46:03 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408101833.tn917179@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Several people have questioned whether old batteries from electrical vehicles
could or would be recycled, feeling that they would probably just end up in
the landfill. Doubtless, some would; no system is perfect. But, the
automobile battery business has, for many years, had a very high rate of
recycling. I've seen various estimates recently of 95-98%.

The old battery is relatively easy to disassemble, and the lead is quite easy
to melt, and reclaim, in a high-purity form. Some people are reclaiming the
rubber/polymer cases, too, by grinding them up. The electrolyte fluids or gel
is also fairly easy to collect and process, though I understand there is far
less economic incentive to actually recycle these chemicals. Sulfuric acid is
fairly cheap.

DBHolmes



From mshadowfax@aol.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:04 EDT 1994
Article: 865 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Date: 10 Aug 1994 15:29:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32b9pu$57q@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <a7a_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <a7a_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler) writes:

"   This discussion is not be about limiting someone's speech or
expression, but
providing guidelines to *enhance* communication and information exchange
forthose interested, in this particular case, in the notion of generating
renewable power for sustainable, low-impact living.  Let's stick to
what'sappropriate, thus facilitating the mission of this joint
echo-newsgroup.  IfI'm way out of line here, then someone please set me
straight."


     I think Don will agree with me that you've said it exceptionally
well.

     Nuffsaid 'bout nukes. Anyone try those new thin-film solar panels
yet?

Shadowfax




From mshadowfax@aol.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:05 EDT 1994
Article: 866 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: usenet link
Date: 10 Aug 1994 15:44:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 28
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32bam8$5h0@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <a31_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <a31_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks) writes:

"        Count me in.  Usenet has been a wast here."

     I, for one, am sorry to hear statements like this. If it were not for
the Usenet link I wouldn't have access to this group and the useful
information it has been providing, nor would I have been able to
communicate with those of you out there who have been sending me *good*
questions about my home power system.

     I too am tired of the pro-nuke type (hi Harry!) invading our space,
but I think a FAQ (which I would gladly donate some of my rare spare time
to help develop and write) posted every 2-3 weeks and quoted when some new
reader broaches ettiquette would be a BIG help.

     I'm also sure there are more than a few others out there who would
agree with me on this one. Among other things you haven't given this group
much time to establish a core-readership yet. Try passing judgement again
when it's been available for about a year or two - things will undoubtedly
be different then.

     Gotta run - afternoon lightning strikes are getting close and this
computer is grid-based.

Shadowfax




From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:05 EDT 1994
Article: 867 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 19:19:11 GMT
Lines: 19
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113405 misc.rural:11102 alt.energy.renewable:867 sci.energy:24030
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>
> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
> 200 gal/hour
> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)

I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
used for legal purposes. Is that true?



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:06 EDT 1994
Article: 868 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR TOILET???
Date: 11 Aug 1994 02:17:53 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 19
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408101745.A13767-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <1994Aug10.164620.23385@emba.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Aug 1994, Paul R. Lachapelle wrote:

> Does anyone have info on SOLAR TOILETS and more specifically solar 
> toilets used in backcountry facilities?
> Thanks
> plachapelle@moose.uvm.edu

      I'm not familiar with Solar toilets and would appreciate more info. 
I'm aware that solar powered fans are used to vent composting toilets and 
that in some cases they are also given a solar assist (thermal) to keep 
the digestive action cooking, especially during cold weather.
    DCK

Any references to design criteria for owner built composting toilet 
systems out there?




From latta@ace.acadiau.ca Wed Aug 10 23:08:06 EDT 1994
Article: 869 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!news.cic.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!dragon.acadiau.ca!hsh218-1.acadiau.ca!latta
From: latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN LATTA)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <latta.13.2E493424@ace.acadiau.ca>
Lines: 41
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Nntp-Posting-Host: hsh218-1.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
References: <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com> <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com> <hatunenCu93KI.7Dr@netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 20:10:13 GMT
Lines: 41
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCu93KI.7Dr@netcom.com> hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
>From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
>Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 04:38:42 GMT

>In article <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com>,
>MShadowfax <mshadowfax@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
>>(DaveHatunen) writes:
>>
>>"You need to know more electrical engineering."
>>
>>    Perhaps so - I never said I was any kind of expert. Then again - my
>>lights are glowing, my ceiling fans are turning, and my TV and stereo are
>>blaring away quite nicely from power generated through my electrical
>>engineering experience.
>>
>>Shadowfax
>>     (not doing to badly for self-taught)

>My. All that from a secondary loop picking up emf fromoverhead power
>lines? I'm impressed.




>-- 
>    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
>    *                Daly City California:                *
>    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
>    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
>    *******************************************************

The point here is that if you do not put an antenna up to drain power from 
the conduction fields it is not lost from the line.  The antenna increases 
the energy loss over what is normally lost without the antenna drawing this 
additional power off.  Going back to the transformer analogy, if the 
transformer's secondary does not draw current, there is no transfer of power 
from the primary.  You are not harvesting free energy, you are stealing.

Dr. Bryan Latta, Professor of Physics, Acadia University, Canada


From lrecord@vnet.ibm.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:07 EDT 1994
Article: 870 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record)
Subject: Re: Off the Grid
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 18:44:31 GMT
Reply-To: lrecord@vnet.ibm.com
References: <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall) writes:
>                            ...... I would imagine that this concept would help
>with storage costs in that it may be more efficient to sell the electricity
>back to the grid rather than install larger of-line storage facilities.

This is an interesting concept - suppose sufficient solar breakthroughs are made
such that it is more economical to self generate than to buy.  However, the cost
of storage for non-solar periods remains prohibitive.  Do you suppose the power
companies role might get reversed from that of a generator/supplier to that of a
storage/resupplier?  That is, the community of consumers overgenerates during
prime periods, feeding into the grid and building credits, then draws back from
the grid when necessary, building charges.  The grid would provide the capital-
intensive service of storage.  

One side benefit would likely be a wide geographical distribution of facilities
thus reducing exposure to single-point-of-failure problems.  One disadvantage would
be the need for the consumers to generate significantly more than their average 
need during the solar hours such that the net usage would approach 0.  I can see a
whole new discipline of statistics and control theory...

LJR


From lrecord@vnet.ibm.com Wed Aug 10 23:08:08 EDT 1994
Article: 871 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record)
Subject: Re: Storing Energy
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <CuC1LL.wnx@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 18:48:56 GMT
Reply-To: lrecord@vnet.ibm.com
References: <a64_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 9
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Does anyone out there know of a good mechanical way of storing
> energy.Before the invention of the battery  was there other ways to
> store  energy efficinetly

How about a large flywheel?  It's been mentioned in connection to
automotive use but for stationary use it might be even more attractive
since gyroscopic effects aren't important.

LJR


From bergstro@src.honeywell.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:14 EDT 1994
Article: 872 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!src.honeywell.com!not-for-mail
From: bergstro@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Date: 11 Aug 1994 00:24:24 GMT
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center, Minneapolis, MN
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <BERGSTRO.94Aug10192424@analysis.src.honeywell.com>
References: <a6b_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: analysis.src.honeywell.com
In-reply-to: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us's message of 5 Aug 94 03:25:16 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>>>> On 5 Aug 94 03:25:16 GMT, Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows) said:
> You both seem to be under a slight misunderstanding. This is not a
> usenet newsgroup. It is a fidonet echo which has been carried over onto
> usenet throough the courtesy of Don K., the moderator who has absolute
> control over the contents until voted out by the *fidonet users* or
> until a new echo is formed and this one dies from lack of use. 

The fact that *you* read it on a fidonet node and *I* read it on a
Usenet node means that it is both a fidonet echo and a usenet
newsgroup *at the same time.* Don Kulha has no control of the "echo"
once it leaves the gateway on the Usenet side of things.

Whether or not Don zaps the gateway today, he'd have absolutely no
control over the Usenet newsgroup. It would continue on and probably
have about the same traffic as it does now.

> Fidonet and Usenet seemingly operate under somewhat different rules
> of order.

Absolutely right.

Pete


From mbishop@io.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:16 EDT 1994
Article: 873 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!illuminati.io.com!mbishop
From: mbishop@io.com (mbishop)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Keeping cool
Date: 11 Aug 1994 05:32:14 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online (on pentagon)
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <32cd4v$don@illuminati.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 




From quartlow@netcom.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:17 EDT 1994
Article: 874 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: help w/ batt. memory please
Message-ID: <quartlowCuCty8.J4@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <Cu9z9A.5HrG@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 05:01:20 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com wrote:
: a question about recharging batteries.
: I have read that batteries have memory. In the
: case of AA batteries in my tape player, after about
: four hours, they need a recharge....  (Snip)

Are these nicads?  With a maximum charge of just over 1.2V,
it doesn't take too long to reach cutoff voltage.
I believe that this beginning-low-voltage effect is
disguised as the dreaded "memory effect".
Perhaps you would consider building an external battery
pack made of gel-cells.  You would have to consider
the size, weight and charge aspects.  At 2V per cell,
your only worry is to design its output voltage so as
not to fry your tape player. :)

hope this helps.  --Len 



From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:18 EDT 1994
Article: 875 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: RV Solar
Date: 11 Aug 1994 03:59:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32clo6$j0o@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Csn2G5.5oA@boi.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Csn2G5.5oA@boi.hp.com>, robc@boi.hp.com (Rob Cummings) writes:

Has any one set up a solar systems for off grid or RVs.

hi I am Cynthia and I  live off-grid.  We power our home/office form pvs. 
It is also our business. (Offline Independent Energy Systems).  We are
very experienced in this matter.  We have been designing and installing
independent power systems, both large and small, for over 11 years.  I
enjoy sharing our experince with others.  We also have mail order
customers all over the country.  The energy efficient life style is very
satisfying.  If you have questions please let me answer them for you. 
Cynthia Loweburg


From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:19 EDT 1994
Article: 876 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What's the current status of Solar Energy?
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:13:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cmie$j58@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <2vs1ot$6qf@stargate.promus.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <2vs1ot$6qf@stargate.promus.com>, jbjones@promus.com (4016)
writes:
The current satus of Solar energy is that it works and there is a whole
bunch of us living offgrid and enjoying the life of independent energy. 
Who sells it?  Lots if us.  I have been in business for over 11 years
designing and installing remote power systems.  We do mail order too.  My
husband Don and I  are always available to answer your questions.  We are
OFFLINE INDEPENDENT ENERGY SYSTEMS   PO BOX 231 NORTH FORK, CA  93643.Don
and Cynthia Loweburg phone# 209-877-7080 e-mail ofln@aol.com  We have a
catalog.


From tduescher@internet.tricord.mn.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:20 EDT 1994
Article: 877 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: tduescher@internet.tricord.mn.org
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: (none)
Date: 11 Aug 1994 10:55:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407107765.AA776547606@internet.tricord.mn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

     review renew-energy
     which



From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:21 EDT 1994
Article: 878 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: The Women of MREF
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:05:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cm3d$j2l@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <800_9407101106@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <800_9407101106@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha) writes:

About the 
women of the MREF
I have never been to this fair but it sounds great.  Everyone says its the
best.  I am hoping to get there maybe next year.  I too am a Solar Woman. 
I am priveleged to live in the woods and generate my own power, grow a
garden.  This life may very well be the life of the future. 
Decentralized, bioregional but connected to all.  Cynthia


From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:22 EDT 1994
Article: 879 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:20:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cmvj$j79@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>,
sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack) writes:

It snows in the central sierra where we live too, Sarah. Our panels
actually put out more power in the cold of winter. In the high country
where it REALLY snows folks do have to be very careful about snow load. 
It can crush the modules with weight.  It is good to see another women
online.  
Cynthia Loweburg



From Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:24 EDT 1994
Article: 880 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Phillip.Hill
From: Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Phillip Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <6ff_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 22:20:36 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Computer Conversion
 
>    Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.
>    With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
>    if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
>    plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
>    need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
>    is a 486/33, if that matters.

On your mother board you will find near the back of the system a pair of
inline power plugs normally labeled P8 and P9. The pin assignments are as
follows: Pin 1 is the one farthest to the back edge of the board.

  Pin 1  =  'good power'
  Pin 2  =  Empty
  Pin 3  =  +12 VDC
  Pin 4  =  -12 VDC
  Pin 5  =  GND
  Pin 6  =  GND
  Pin 7  =  GND
  Pin 8  =  GND
  Pin 9  =  -5 VDC
  Pin 10 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 11 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 12 =  +5 VDC

notes:  The 'good power' signal is a signal that come from the power supply to 
the mother board to signal that the power supply is working correctly.  I amn
ot sure what caracteristics this signal has.

+12 V DC acceptable range = +8.5 V to +12.6 V  Current range = 0 to  2 amps
-12 V DC acceptable range = -8.5 V to -12.6 V  Current range = 0 to .25 amps
 +5 V DC acceptable range = +2.4 V to  +5.2 V  Current range = 2.3 to 7.0 amps
 -5 V DC acceptable range = -4.5 V to  -5.4 V  Current range = 0 to .30 amps

Hope this helps.

 <<<* Dark Star VI *>>>  Collinsville,IL   (618)344-9048  v.32bis  VBBS 6.??


From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:25 EDT 1994
Article: 881 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Popeye
Message-ID: <700_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 16:41:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Fred Nowall
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: 12volts
 
> this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
> popeye just wandering?

No, must be another popeye...This is Popeye the Sailorman Bubblehead.  :}
Popeye

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:27 EDT 1994
Article: 882 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-249-121-3!Gordon.Campbell
From: Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org (Gordon Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <701_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 00:14:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: An 18% Grey Point - Kingston, ON, Canada
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (06 Aug 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Gordon Campbell...

 CO> They have to PAY to dispose of them!  I merely mentioned to him that I'd
 CO> like to have some and he showed up the next day with a pickup load.  He
 CO> still asks me from time to time if I'd like to have some more.

Good deal!  How big are they?  Being a high-amperage package, I'm assuming that
they're largish.

Cheers,
.....G

... Situation Normal.  Please Panic Accordingly.


From Alfrado.Gambino@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:28 EDT 1994
Article: 883 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2604-407-0!Alfrado.Gambino
From: Alfrado.Gambino@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (Alfrado Gambino)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <70b_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 15:41:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * [201]641-8167 14.4
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all.... Just wanted to say HI...
                         
* SPITFIRE v3.3


From David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:30 EDT 1994
Article: 884 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-229-15-0!David.Lagzdin
From: David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org (David Lagzdin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <73e_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:08:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

Lets think about this...computers want +/- 12v and +/-5v
CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp
negative regulator...Hmmm....
Dave


From Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:31 EDT 1994
Article: 885 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-356-12-0!Lewis.Cosper
From: Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org (Lewis Cosper)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nukes, On topic?
Message-ID: <74b_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 10:33:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Mansion  (Charleston, Oregon) USA
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,


 > P.S. - So, has anyone seen Elvis lately?.....

Nope. Seems to have dissapeared off the face of the earth. Even sent him net
mail and have seen no response.

Lewis


From Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 11 11:48:32 EDT 1994
Article: 886 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Katey.Lafrance
From: Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Katey Lafrance)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: GEOTHERMAL
Message-ID: <74e_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 22:10:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, just access thru the Greenpeace BBS.  I've heard of some problems with
taking away the steam from underground, namely the so-called "new age" guru,
Elizabeth Claire Prophet, who owns a ton of land up by Yellowstoine and was all
set to tap energy from the underground energy which aslo causes "Ole Faithful"
to erupt in the park.  Had she been allowed, to date I've not heard that she
was, who knows what would have happened.  She's greedy enough to have taken it
all.  She has already fenced in, fenced out and fenced over the ancient
wildlife migratory routes thru there. JUst a thought! Later...KT


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:33 EDT 1994
Article: 887 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <750_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:43:01 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 


> [I wondered aloud how to convert my desktop machine into a 12VDC beastie]

 DD> Would you consider a lap top?  I guess you already have the
 DD> desk top 486 but it would be SO much easier to use the lap
 DD> top, especially if you got one that expects 12VDC from its
 DD> power unit.  But you've probably thought of that and
 DD> rejected the idea, right?

    Well, yes this would be a decent solution - but I was kinda
 concerned about expansion issues.  Them laptops get kinda nasty
 with all the wires hangin' out the back! :->

    Plus, as you surmised, I own the desktopper - I don't own a
 laptopper!

 Bill


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 11:48:35 EDT 1994
Article: 888 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Bicycle
Message-ID: <72b_9408101759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 14:38:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

GB>I have a 13" B&W TV and a 13" color TV that are both 110 AC/ 12 DC
GB>units. There is also a VCR that works on 12 volt DC. My refriderator in
GB>the camper is 12 volt and uses a compressor like a 110 household fridge.
GB>Amperage draw of the small camper fridge is 3.7 amps as shown on the
GB>label. Household size ones I have seen advertised use about 10 amps if I
GB>remember right.

I was unaware of the new larger screen tv's for 12 volt. I imagine they
draw a decent current. As I suggested though these are all designed for
the RV market and are available through those dealers. Other companies
are carrying more of these items now because it is an expanding market.
Even Radio Shack is comeing out with 12 volt lines these days.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Some dance to remember, some dance to forget!


From scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:36 EDT 1994
Article: 889 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!uunet!cherokee!da_vinci!lookout!scollins
From: scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com (Steven Collins)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Sender: news@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (IT Netnews)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lookout
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 13:40:12 GMT
Lines: 18
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113503 misc.rural:11128 alt.energy.renewable:889 sci.energy:24057
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>
>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
>> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
>> 200 gal/hour
>> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
>> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
>
>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>used for legal purposes. Is that true?

Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.

-- 


From rjohnston@vnet.ibm.com Thu Aug 11 11:48:38 EDT 1994
Article: 890 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews.raleigh.ibm.com!usenet
From: rmjohns@opie.raleigh.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Off the Grid
Date: 11 Aug 1994 13:51:47 GMT
Organization: NMS Workstation Development
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32dadj$1168@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
References: <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com>
Reply-To: rjohnston@vnet.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
NNTP-Posting-Host: owen.raleigh.ibm.com
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com>, les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record) writes:
>In <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall) writes:
>>                            ...... I would imagine that this concept would help
>>with storage costs in that it may be more efficient to sell the electricity
>>back to the grid rather than install larger of-line storage facilities.
>
>This is an interesting concept - suppose sufficient solar breakthroughs are made
>such that it is more economical to self generate than to buy.  However, the cost
>of storage for non-solar periods remains prohibitive.  Do you suppose the power
>companies role might get reversed from that of a generator/supplier to that of a
>storage/resupplier?  That is, the community of consumers overgenerates during
>prime periods, feeding into the grid and building credits, then draws back from
>the grid when necessary, building charges.  The grid would provide the capital-
>intensive service of storage.  

Actually, I beleive that the power companies (at least in N.C if 
not the U.S) are required by law to buy power from individuals, 
although I don't know who actually detemines the rate at which 
they pay. I visited a place in college where the guy had a 
reasonable sized hydro setup. If I recall right, he sold about
$800 worth of power to the local company per year. Must be nice 
to turn the tables on those bills.

Rob Johnston




From quartlow@netcom.com Thu Aug 11 23:36:56 EDT 1994
Article: 874 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!boulder!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!quartlow
From: quartlow@netcom.com (Len Turnbow)
Subject: Re: help w/ batt. memory please
Message-ID: <quartlowCuCty8.J4@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <Cu9z9A.5HrG@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 05:01:20 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com wrote:
: a question about recharging batteries.
: I have read that batteries have memory. In the
: case of AA batteries in my tape player, after about
: four hours, they need a recharge....  (Snip)

Are these nicads?  With a maximum charge of just over 1.2V,
it doesn't take too long to reach cutoff voltage.
I believe that this beginning-low-voltage effect is
disguised as the dreaded "memory effect".
Perhaps you would consider building an external battery
pack made of gel-cells.  You would have to consider
the size, weight and charge aspects.  At 2V per cell,
your only worry is to design its output voltage so as
not to fry your tape player. :)

hope this helps.  --Len 



From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 23:36:57 EDT 1994
Article: 875 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: RV Solar
Date: 11 Aug 1994 03:59:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32clo6$j0o@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Csn2G5.5oA@boi.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Csn2G5.5oA@boi.hp.com>, robc@boi.hp.com (Rob Cummings) writes:

Has any one set up a solar systems for off grid or RVs.

hi I am Cynthia and I  live off-grid.  We power our home/office form pvs. 
It is also our business. (Offline Independent Energy Systems).  We are
very experienced in this matter.  We have been designing and installing
independent power systems, both large and small, for over 11 years.  I
enjoy sharing our experince with others.  We also have mail order
customers all over the country.  The energy efficient life style is very
satisfying.  If you have questions please let me answer them for you. 
Cynthia Loweburg


From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 23:36:58 EDT 1994
Article: 876 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What's the current status of Solar Energy?
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:13:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cmie$j58@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <2vs1ot$6qf@stargate.promus.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <2vs1ot$6qf@stargate.promus.com>, jbjones@promus.com (4016)
writes:
The current satus of Solar energy is that it works and there is a whole
bunch of us living offgrid and enjoying the life of independent energy. 
Who sells it?  Lots if us.  I have been in business for over 11 years
designing and installing remote power systems.  We do mail order too.  My
husband Don and I  are always available to answer your questions.  We are
OFFLINE INDEPENDENT ENERGY SYSTEMS   PO BOX 231 NORTH FORK, CA  93643.Don
and Cynthia Loweburg phone# 209-877-7080 e-mail ofln@aol.com  We have a
catalog.


From tduescher@internet.tricord.mn.org Thu Aug 11 23:36:59 EDT 1994
Article: 877 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: tduescher@internet.tricord.mn.org
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: (none)
Date: 11 Aug 1994 10:55:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407107765.AA776547606@internet.tricord.mn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

     review renew-energy
     which



From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:00 EDT 1994
Article: 878 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: The Women of MREF
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:05:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cm3d$j2l@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <800_9407101106@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <800_9407101106@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha) writes:

About the 
women of the MREF
I have never been to this fair but it sounds great.  Everyone says its the
best.  I am hoping to get there maybe next year.  I too am a Solar Woman. 
I am priveleged to live in the woods and generate my own power, grow a
garden.  This life may very well be the life of the future. 
Decentralized, bioregional but connected to all.  Cynthia


From cyburg@aol.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:01 EDT 1994
Article: 879 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 11 Aug 1994 04:20:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32cmvj$j79@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu>,
sflack@moose.uvm.edu (Sarah E. Flack) writes:

It snows in the central sierra where we live too, Sarah. Our panels
actually put out more power in the cold of winter. In the high country
where it REALLY snows folks do have to be very careful about snow load. 
It can crush the modules with weight.  It is good to see another women
online.  
Cynthia Loweburg



From Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:01 EDT 1994
Article: 880 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Phillip.Hill
From: Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Phillip Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <6ff_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 22:20:36 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Computer Conversion
 
>    Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.
>    With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
>    if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
>    plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
>    need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
>    is a 486/33, if that matters.

On your mother board you will find near the back of the system a pair of
inline power plugs normally labeled P8 and P9. The pin assignments are as
follows: Pin 1 is the one farthest to the back edge of the board.

  Pin 1  =  'good power'
  Pin 2  =  Empty
  Pin 3  =  +12 VDC
  Pin 4  =  -12 VDC
  Pin 5  =  GND
  Pin 6  =  GND
  Pin 7  =  GND
  Pin 8  =  GND
  Pin 9  =  -5 VDC
  Pin 10 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 11 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 12 =  +5 VDC

notes:  The 'good power' signal is a signal that come from the power supply to 
the mother board to signal that the power supply is working correctly.  I amn
ot sure what caracteristics this signal has.

+12 V DC acceptable range = +8.5 V to +12.6 V  Current range = 0 to  2 amps
-12 V DC acceptable range = -8.5 V to -12.6 V  Current range = 0 to .25 amps
 +5 V DC acceptable range = +2.4 V to  +5.2 V  Current range = 2.3 to 7.0 amps
 -5 V DC acceptable range = -4.5 V to  -5.4 V  Current range = 0 to .30 amps

Hope this helps.

 <<<* Dark Star VI *>>>  Collinsville,IL   (618)344-9048  v.32bis  VBBS 6.??


From Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:02 EDT 1994
Article: 882 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-249-121-3!Gordon.Campbell
From: Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org (Gordon Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <701_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 00:14:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: An 18% Grey Point - Kingston, ON, Canada
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (06 Aug 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Gordon Campbell...

 CO> They have to PAY to dispose of them!  I merely mentioned to him that I'd
 CO> like to have some and he showed up the next day with a pickup load.  He
 CO> still asks me from time to time if I'd like to have some more.

Good deal!  How big are they?  Being a high-amperage package, I'm assuming that
they're largish.

Cheers,
.....G

... Situation Normal.  Please Panic Accordingly.


From Alfrado.Gambino@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:03 EDT 1994
Article: 883 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2604-407-0!Alfrado.Gambino
From: Alfrado.Gambino@f407.n2604.z1.fidonet.org (Alfrado Gambino)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <70b_9408101618@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 15:41:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * [201]641-8167 14.4
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all.... Just wanted to say HI...
                         
* SPITFIRE v3.3


From David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:04 EDT 1994
Article: 884 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-229-15-0!David.Lagzdin
From: David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org (David Lagzdin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <73e_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:08:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

Lets think about this...computers want +/- 12v and +/-5v
CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp
negative regulator...Hmmm....
Dave


From Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:05 EDT 1994
Article: 885 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-356-12-0!Lewis.Cosper
From: Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org (Lewis Cosper)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nukes, On topic?
Message-ID: <74b_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 10:33:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Mansion  (Charleston, Oregon) USA
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,


 > P.S. - So, has anyone seen Elvis lately?.....

Nope. Seems to have dissapeared off the face of the earth. Even sent him net
mail and have seen no response.

Lewis


From Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 11 23:37:06 EDT 1994
Article: 886 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Katey.Lafrance
From: Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Katey Lafrance)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: GEOTHERMAL
Message-ID: <74e_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 22:10:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, just access thru the Greenpeace BBS.  I've heard of some problems with
taking away the steam from underground, namely the so-called "new age" guru,
Elizabeth Claire Prophet, who owns a ton of land up by Yellowstoine and was all
set to tap energy from the underground energy which aslo causes "Ole Faithful"
to erupt in the park.  Had she been allowed, to date I've not heard that she
was, who knows what would have happened.  She's greedy enough to have taken it
all.  She has already fenced in, fenced out and fenced over the ancient
wildlife migratory routes thru there. JUst a thought! Later...KT


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:07 EDT 1994
Article: 887 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <750_9408101840@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:43:01 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 


> [I wondered aloud how to convert my desktop machine into a 12VDC beastie]

 DD> Would you consider a lap top?  I guess you already have the
 DD> desk top 486 but it would be SO much easier to use the lap
 DD> top, especially if you got one that expects 12VDC from its
 DD> power unit.  But you've probably thought of that and
 DD> rejected the idea, right?

    Well, yes this would be a decent solution - but I was kinda
 concerned about expansion issues.  Them laptops get kinda nasty
 with all the wires hangin' out the back! :->

    Plus, as you surmised, I own the desktopper - I don't own a
 laptopper!

 Bill


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 11 23:37:07 EDT 1994
Article: 888 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Bicycle
Message-ID: <72b_9408101759@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 14:38:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

GB>I have a 13" B&W TV and a 13" color TV that are both 110 AC/ 12 DC
GB>units. There is also a VCR that works on 12 volt DC. My refriderator in
GB>the camper is 12 volt and uses a compressor like a 110 household fridge.
GB>Amperage draw of the small camper fridge is 3.7 amps as shown on the
GB>label. Household size ones I have seen advertised use about 10 amps if I
GB>remember right.

I was unaware of the new larger screen tv's for 12 volt. I imagine they
draw a decent current. As I suggested though these are all designed for
the RV market and are available through those dealers. Other companies
are carrying more of these items now because it is an expanding market.
Even Radio Shack is comeing out with 12 volt lines these days.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Some dance to remember, some dance to forget!


From scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:08 EDT 1994
Article: 889 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!emory!nntp.msstate.edu!olivea!uunet!cherokee!da_vinci!lookout!scollins
From: scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com (Steven Collins)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Sender: news@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (IT Netnews)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lookout
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 13:40:12 GMT
Lines: 18
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113503 misc.rural:11128 alt.energy.renewable:889 sci.energy:24057
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>
>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
>> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
>> 200 gal/hour
>> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
>> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
>
>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>used for legal purposes. Is that true?

Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.

-- 


From rjohnston@vnet.ibm.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:09 EDT 1994
Article: 890 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews.raleigh.ibm.com!usenet
From: rmjohns@opie.raleigh.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Off the Grid
Date: 11 Aug 1994 13:51:47 GMT
Organization: NMS Workstation Development
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32dadj$1168@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
References: <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com>
Reply-To: rjohnston@vnet.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
NNTP-Posting-Host: owen.raleigh.ibm.com
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com>, les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record) writes:
>In <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall) writes:
>>                            ...... I would imagine that this concept would help
>>with storage costs in that it may be more efficient to sell the electricity
>>back to the grid rather than install larger of-line storage facilities.
>
>This is an interesting concept - suppose sufficient solar breakthroughs are made
>such that it is more economical to self generate than to buy.  However, the cost
>of storage for non-solar periods remains prohibitive.  Do you suppose the power
>companies role might get reversed from that of a generator/supplier to that of a
>storage/resupplier?  That is, the community of consumers overgenerates during
>prime periods, feeding into the grid and building credits, then draws back from
>the grid when necessary, building charges.  The grid would provide the capital-
>intensive service of storage.  

Actually, I beleive that the power companies (at least in N.C if 
not the U.S) are required by law to buy power from individuals, 
although I don't know who actually detemines the rate at which 
they pay. I visited a place in college where the guy had a 
reasonable sized hydro setup. If I recall right, he sold about
$800 worth of power to the local company per year. Must be nice 
to turn the tables on those bills.

Rob Johnston




From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Thu Aug 11 23:37:10 EDT 1994
Article: 891 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Intertie systems (was Re: Off the Grid)
Date: 11 Aug 1994 15:58:50 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 67
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408111548.JAA07696@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

Forwarded message:
>From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Thu Aug 11 09:45:35 1994
From: "Eric F. Richards" <efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-Id: <199408111545.JAA07661@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Intertie systems (was Re: Off the Grid)
To: lrecord@vnet.ibm.com
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 09:45:31 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
In-Reply-To: <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com> from "Les Record" at Aug 10, 94 06:44:31 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2461      

> 
> In <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, 
> Charles.Senescall@p111.f217.n640.z3.fidonet.org (Charles Senescall) writes:
> >                            ...... I would imagine that this concept 
> >would help
> >with storage costs in that it may be more efficient to sell the electricity
> >back to the grid rather than install larger of-line storage facilities.
> 
> This is an interesting concept - suppose sufficient solar breakthroughs 
> are made
> such that it is more economical to self generate than to buy.  However, 
> the cost
> of storage for non-solar periods remains prohibitive.  Do you suppose 
> the power
> companies role might get reversed from that of a generator/supplier to 
> that of a
> storage/resupplier?  That is, the community of consumers overgenerates during
> prime periods, feeding into the grid and building credits, then draws 
> back from
> the grid when necessary, building charges.  The grid would provide the 
> capital-
> intensive service of storage.  
> 

Utility Intertie, as this is called, is not only technically feasible, it
is here!  For PV applications, Pacific Inverter and Omnion make syncronous
inverters.  Wind turbine manufacturers will often offer a sync. inverter
matched to some or all of their turbines.  The Public Utility Regulatory
Policies Act (PURPA) _requires_ that utilities buy back your power (provided
your equipment meets their safety and other technical requirements).  What
rate they buy back at, however, varies.  PURPA requires that they pay at
least "avoided cost" -- roughly equivalent to a wholesale rate -- but you
may be able to get "net billing" which means  you get paid retail for your
power.

The above oversimplifies the situation.  For more details, see Richard Perez'
article in Home Power #42.  For an exhaustive description of the situation,
see "Wind Power for Home & Business" by Paul Gipe.

One notable disadvantage of intertie systems is that they shut down when the
grid fails.  It wouldn't be exactly ethical to backfeed power into the lines
a lineman is working on, would it???  Trace's SW4024/SW4048 inverters get
around that by being able to working as synchronous or stand-alone inverters!
However, they do require a battery bank.

...still looking for people with intertie experience with Public Service of
Colorado, and people with Whisper 3000 experience to describe their
durability,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Can we all get along?"




From amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Aug 11 23:37:10 EDT 1994
Article: 892 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (artemis)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <CuDusC.98F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington IN
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:17:00 GMT
Lines: 32
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113547 misc.rural:11134 alt.energy.renewable:892 sci.energy:24069
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>,
DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>
>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
>> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
>> 200 gal/hour
>> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
>> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
>
>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>used for legal purposes. Is that true?

Only if it's for alcohol production, or there's any way the ATF can
reasonably prove it's being, or has been used for alcohol production.

BTW, a simple experimenters license for alcohol production for fuel is
easy to get.

Building a decent still is even easier (for the mechanically
inclined). 

Anmar, who believes that what I do on my land, not having a net
negative effect, is none of the government's damn business.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   #Chief of Tranquility  #Teach the children quietly, for some
EMT-D N9ISY   #Base, Lawrence Co. IN #day sons and daughters will rise up and 
Sawyer        #Somewhere out on the  #fight while we sit still. # IU doesn't
Networks Tech.#Mirza Ranch. DoD#1143 #pay me enough to speak for them.


From hatunen@netcom.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:11 EDT 1994
Article: 893 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!csusac!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <hatunenCuDz5I.MqM@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com> <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 19:51:18 GMT
Lines: 38
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113554 misc.rural:11138 alt.energy.renewable:893 sci.energy:24074
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>,
>DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
>>> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
>>> 200 gal/hour
>>> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
>>> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
>>
>>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>>used for legal purposes. Is that true?
>
>Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
>require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.

Forgive me for what may be mistaken for rudeness, but are you sure?
When I worked for a company that made printed circuits, we had a vapor
degreaser, using some heavy duty, and expensive, solvents. And we had a
small still for re-purifying the solvents for re-use. We had to have a
permit for the still, and I was told that a permit was required for all
stills.

Hm. Wonder if the BATF has a local phone number. Maybe I'll give them a
call.





-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From jstanley@solar.win.net Thu Aug 11 23:37:12 EDT 1994
Article: 894 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swiss.ans.net!malgudi.oar.net!witch!solar!jstanley
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Message-ID: <870@solar.win.net>
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com><CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
Reply-To: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
From: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 22:28:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Lines: 22
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113594 misc.rural:11144 alt.energy.renewable:894 sci.energy:24081
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
In article <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>, 
Steven Collins (scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com) writes:
>In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>,
>DaveHatunen <hatunen@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
>>> 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
>>> 200 gal/hour
>>> 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
>>> $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
>>
>>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>>used for legal purposes. Is that true?
>
>Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
>require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.

89 Grand!!! For a machine that boils water and condenses it? Bought
any nice bridges in NYC lately? 

--
John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net
If I were a name, could my letters number a hundred?
More likely coarse and gutteral, one syllable Anglo-Saxon.
                                        -The Minutemen


From ems@cygnus.com Thu Aug 11 23:37:12 EDT 1994
Article: 895 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.cygnus.com!ems
From: ems@cygnus.com (E. Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <CuEJD3.HxI@cygnus.com>
Sender: news@cygnus.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
Organization: Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 03:07:51 GMT
Lines: 16
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:113635 misc.rural:11151 alt.energy.renewable:895 sci.energy:24091
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com> hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
>In article <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>,
>Steven Collins <scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>>
>> SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I understand you have to have a license to own a still, even if it's
>used for legal purposes. Is that true?

For alcohol, yes, but not for a 'water' still... 

-- 

E. Michael Smith
Manager of Stuff
Cygnus Support


From jbvb@elf.com Fri Aug 12 00:15:47 EDT 1994
Article: 896 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Date: 12 Aug 1994 02:07:52 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <32elho$i2u@usenet.elf.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu> <32cmvj$j79@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG) writes:
>It snows in the central sierra where we live too, Sarah. Our panels
>actually put out more power in the cold of winter....

My PV array is rated for 38A, but I've seen it generate 50A on a
bright, cold day just after a snowstorm, and before the horses had
tracked-up the area in front of it.  Some of the extra power was due
to the cold (increased panel efficiency) and some was due to extra
light reflected off the snow, but I've never tried to analyze it
exactly.

jbvb



From etoler@csn.org Fri Aug 12 10:55:43 EDT 1994
Article: 897 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!boulder!csn!etoler
From: etoler@csn.org (Eric Toler)
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Message-ID: <CuDy0A.E33@csn.org>
Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <a94_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 19:26:34 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hooking up pvs to a high efficiency heat pump is not a bad idea.  However,
a better idea, touched on by the native mediterrainian architecture
example, is to lower the cooling load as much as possible up front. 
Installation of Heat Mirror containing Superwindows (letting in light
without heat), albedo roof or light colored roof (shade it with the pvs!),
trees for shading, managing internal thermal loads (hot water heater,
stove,'fridge, lighting, etc.) well designed overhangs, use of stack
cooling and use of a thermal mass will all reduce to actual cooling load
needed to the extent that perhaps a pv powered heat pump might work.  Just
be careful of the start-up loads for the heat pump and associated blower
(a battery storage would help with those start-up loads).

Check out the ACT2 project conducted by PG&E in Davis CA.

THINK SYSTEMS, NOT COMPONENTS!!

Eric Toler
Rocky Mountain Institute


From etoler@csn.org Fri Aug 12 10:55:44 EDT 1994
Article: 898 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!usa.net!csn!etoler
From: etoler@csn.org (Eric Toler)
Subject: Re: ELECTRICAL GENERATORS
Message-ID: <CuDzAE.G89@csn.org>
Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <25b_9408042306@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <325tq8$ntg@ucthpx.uct.ac.za> <Cu9vJ9.IwM@sun2.iusb.indiana.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 19:54:14 GMT
Lines: 17
Status: O
X-Status: 

Non petroleum derived fuels for diesel cycle engines:

There is biodiesel and soy diesel.  Two close cousins which I cannot
differentiate because I am not an organic chemist.  Contact; American
Biofuels Association, 1925 N. Lynn St. Suite 1050, Arlington VA 22209.

There is some work underway in Denmark at the Folkcenter for  Renewable
Energy on extracting fuel from rape seeds.  Preben Maegaard
(fcenergy@inet.uni-c.dk) is the Executive Director.

These are both good efforts, however, like the bio derived alcohol debate,
care must be taken in determining whether the process is a net energy
gainer or loser.

Eric Toler
Senior Research Associate
Rocky Mountain Institute


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Fri Aug 12 10:55:45 EDT 1994
Article: 899 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Off the Grid
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CuE3wu.11E@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 21:34:05 GMT
References: <CuDwnw.27BG@austin.ibm.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 16
Status: O
X-Status: 

Les Record (les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com) wrote:
: trying to express was the concept of the utility STORING excess as well as 
: supplying demand.

And just how to you expect them to do that? There's a good reason why
electricity is generated on as as-needed basis!

Oh sure you can store electricity as other sorts of energy, but
there are very few ways to store it that make any economic 
sense. Or are perhaps suggesting that you be subsidized by the
folks on the grid by forcing them to pay for somehow storing energy
for your usage?

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From etoler@csn.org Fri Aug 12 10:55:46 EDT 1994
Article: 900 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!usa.net!csn!etoler
From: etoler@csn.org (Eric Toler)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org>
Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <hatunenCu4uB3.AIJ@netcom.com> <325o8q$fu0@search01.news.aol.com> <hatunenCu93KI.7Dr@netcom.com> <latta.13.2E493424@ace.acadiau.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 20:17:02 GMT
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you have a smart power company (most likely there are LOTS of power
company employees lurking here) they will and can measure the impedence of
the transmission line.  People have been busted for this. The em fields
are created by their power transmission and actively taking power by
purposefully constructing an inductive loop is theft.

However, well done! It must have been difficult in getting the right
number of turns to get the voltage you wanted.  Do you have the current
lagging behind the voltage?

Eric Toler


From lrecord@vnet.ibm.com Fri Aug 12 10:55:48 EDT 1994
Article: 901 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record)
Subject: Re: Off the Grid
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <CuDwnw.27BG@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:57:31 GMT
Reply-To: lrecord@vnet.ibm.com
References: <a2e_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <CuC1E8.19oK@austin.ibm.com> <32dadj$1168@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

In <32dadj$1168@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>, rmjohns@opie.raleigh.ibm.com (Rob Johnston) writes:
>Actually, I beleive that the power companies (at least in N.C if 
>not the U.S) are required by law to buy power from individuals, 

I knew the power companies would buy back power, but they don't store it. 
If, for example, more power were fed back into the grid than needed to
supply all the demand at that time, the excess would dissipate as heat
somewhere.  If on the other hand less power were fed back in than the
demand (the case right now) then the excess is distributed to consumers on
the grid and reduces the draw on the utility's generators.  What I was
trying to express was the concept of the utility STORING excess as well as 
supplying demand.

<*> Les Record - lrecord@vnet.ibm.com <;)



From DBHolmes@aol.com Fri Aug 12 10:55:49 EDT 1994
Article: 902 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Biofuels - do they really produce energy?
Date: 12 Aug 1994 13:17:55 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408120904.tn999547@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Eric Toler wrote:
<<These are both good efforts, however, like the bio derived alcohol debate,
care must be taken in determining whether the process is a net energy
gainer or loser.>>

This is THE question regarding all these biofuels proposals; whether or not
it takes more energy to produce and distribute the fuel than the fuel
provides in energy value in the ultimate application. Our policians and the
agricultural lobbying groups don't seem to understand (or don't want to hear)
this problem. I've yet to find a careful analysis showing any of them
providing a net energy contribution, and would therefore be grateful to
anyone who could post a reference to such studies which do claim a net gain.

Doug



From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Fri Aug 12 10:55:50 EDT 1994
Article: 903 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Grid energy storage (was Re: Off the Grid)
Date: 12 Aug 1994 14:09:11 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 40
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408121356.HAA16682@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof) wrote:
> 
> Les Record (les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com) wrote:
> : trying to express was the concept of the utility STORING excess as well as 
> : supplying demand.
> 
> And just how to you expect them to do that? There's a good reason why
> electricity is generated on as as-needed basis!
> 
Some utilities _do_ store power to help smooth out the daily load variations.
These "pumped storage" plants usually consist of reservoirs at different
altitudes -- by night, water is pumped to the higher one, and during the day
it flows back through the pump/generator to support the higher loads.
Efficiency isn't all that high -- something like 50%.

I've only seen two of these setups -- one is at Kinzua Dam in the Allegheny
National Forest in Pennsylvania, the other is near Independence Pass in
Colorado.  I got a chance to talk to one of the techs at the Kinzua Dam
installation when he took a smoke break -- his attitude about the efficiency
(he's where I got the above figure) was "Well, they seem to make money at
it."

The upper reservoir at Kinzua is one of the ugliest things you've
ever seen -- imagine an asphault bowl a mile in diameter.  I doubt
you could (or would want to) build this sort of thing today.

> [...] Or are perhaps suggesting that you be subsidized by the
> folks on the grid by forcing them to pay for somehow storing energy
> for your usage?

I don't know that it's really an issue until RE becomes a significant
percentage of the generating load.  One advantage of non-RE power
plants is that they can match their power output to demand. If/when
RE facilities pick up most of the load, utilities will have to think
in terms of storage.

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Can we all get along?"



From taylor12@llnl.gov Sun Aug 14 12:12:33 EDT 1994
Article: 904 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: taylor12@llnl.gov (John Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Subscribe
Date: 12 Aug 1994 16:09:56 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408121554.LAA18142@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

subscribe renew-energy



From edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se Sun Aug 14 12:12:33 EDT 1994
Article: 905 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!ericom!toedts1c49!edssrn
From: edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se (Sven Noren)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: toedts1c49.ericsson.se
Reply-To: edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Data Services
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 09:15:53 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

I suspect this thread to be an urban legend. If you steal energy from the transmission lines the resulting electricity will be one-phased. Some equipment in the household, expects to be fead with tree-phased current as delivered from the electric company. I doubt that it is worth while to steal electricity considering the bad quality you wil get.
Also I dont think the resulting current will be 50 Hz, so using it in ordinary equipment would anyhow require transforming it to 50Hz.
Why not steal power from the wind instead?
/Sven



From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:34 EDT 1994
Article: 906 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free Power?
Message-ID: <7a1_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 15:27:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 10:25:59
 santarosa,ca,usa:
Jim,
JD> > of course, i'm no expert ;'>

JD> That's for *damn* sure.

JD> -+- FLAME v1.1
JD>  + Origin: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001 (1:234/2)

What the hell kind of useless FLAME is that, why don't you tell me what 
you really mean.
and if your an expert yourself why don't you share your knowledge
with the rest of us
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:35 EDT 1994
Article: 907 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <7a2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Darr Hoag
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 11:56:33
 santarosa,ca,usa:
Meister Hoag,
DH> @00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
DH> > hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their
DH> > location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline
DH> or
DH> > somfin

DH> Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

DH> ... Electricians do it in hot boxes!
DH> -+- FMail 0.99a+
DH>  + Origin: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA - (1:2330/4)

don'tKnow do all FidoBBSs have to have an origin line,  i seem to recall 
plenty of posts without any such beast. funny but there also seem
to be lot's of origin lines that don't give an actual location.
anyway i'm not sure what (if any) origin line my bbs tacks on but the 
location of the bBoard is NOT necissarily the same as where i live.
i expect this is especially true for some of the people that live in the 
farther out places.

besides you didn't even quote the good part of my post ;'>
 Na Zdrowie!!! 
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:35 EDT 1994
Article: 908 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: REALLY FAST CHARGE FOR EVS
Message-ID: <7a8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:41:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 

...might be a good system for gas(electricity?) stations though...
it'd cut down on inventory requirements for pack exchanges
...might be good to build into vehicles w/lower capacities/requirements, like
motorcycles/mopeds...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:36 EDT 1994
Article: 909 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NIFE BATTERIES
Message-ID: <7a9_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:48:23 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

...sounds like the beginning of a good part-time business...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:36 EDT 1994
Article: 910 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: USENET LINK
Message-ID: <7aa_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:51:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

let's give it a little while first...
I think (HOPE) the bickering'l die down after a while...


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:37 EDT 1994
Article: 911 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TRAVEL TIP
Message-ID: <7ab_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:13:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 1
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: 3rd I
Status: O
X-Status: 

why is this on home power?...


From brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:38 EDT 1994
Article: 912 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!brop9555_utdallas_edu
From: brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (brop9555@utdallas.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:13 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From Brian.McMinn@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:38 EDT 1994
Article: 913 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Brian.McMinn
From: Brian.McMinn@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Brian McMinn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7af_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 19:50:47 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:50:47 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:39 EDT 1994
Article: 914 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <7b0_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 20:55:03 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:55:03 GMT

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax


From Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:39 EDT 1994
Article: 915 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jeff.Bailey
From: Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <7b1_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 21:04:41 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:04:41 GMT

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:40 EDT 1994
Article: 916 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jack.Coats
From: Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jack Coats)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7b2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:58:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Amoco Corportation
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Date: 3 Aug 94 12:58:15 GMT

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org


From sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:40 EDT 1994
Article: 917 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com
From: sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us (sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted powerrREGISTER
Message-ID: <7b3_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:26:12 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
Lines: 41
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Date: 3 Aug 94 18:26:12 GMT

In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com


From Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:41 EDT 1994
Article: 918 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Greg.Lewis
From: Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7b4_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 22:57:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:57:52 GMT

On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:41 EDT 1994
Article: 919 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <7b5_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:43:33 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:33 GMT

Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:42 EDT 1994
Article: 920 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural electrification
Message-ID: <7b6_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:48:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:48:14 GMT

Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:43 EDT 1994
Article: 921 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mandla.Sibanda
From: Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV standards enquiry
Message-ID: <7b7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:51:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Date: 3 Aug 94 10:51:06 GMT

Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:44 EDT 1994
Article: 922 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Nick.Hopton
From: Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Nick Hopton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Message-ID: <7b8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:41:56 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Home, in Reading, England.
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:41:56 GMT

In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:44 EDT 1994
Article: 923 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3625-470-0!Rick.Munday
From: Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org (Rick Munday)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Sources for Solar Cells &
Message-ID: <7c2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 18:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (205) 661-8945
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi gang!

	Just checked into this group for the first time and have alot of
	questions but, I'll stick with an easy one first:
	
	Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment? i.e. Cells,
	Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...
	
	I lived in Germany for several years and it's easy to find that info
	there.  I'm going to the library to read up on basics.  Now am looking
	for sources for the appropriate materials/parts.
	
Thanks & btw, reply here or to - rick.munday@dibbs.com - via Internet.

Rick



~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 <NR>
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:45 EDT 1994
Article: 924 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <7c7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:18:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (01 Aug 94) Michael Welch wrote to Cloyce Osborn...

 MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself,
 MW> although they are not yet installed.

 MW> It is my understanding that they have a slightly higher
 MW> self-discharge rate than nicads, but work pretty much the
 MW> same. 

Do these have the same cold weather characteristics as nicads?

I dream of the time when I can buy a battery that won't be affected
by the cold. I had hoped to get some of the refurbished nicads that
were being talked about a few years ago, but since then I've heard
of a few people who had bad experiences with them.

For now my lead acid bank is still performing pretty well, though I
lose efficiency in the winter. But I would like to learn about
what's out there now so I know what my options are when it's time to
upgrade.

Ian



... A distraction is only a distraction if you pay attention to it.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:46 EDT 1994
Article: 925 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <7c8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:22:27 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: ERIC GRAY
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) ERIC GRAY wrote to DAVE PAXTON...

 EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

 EG> Also you can then buy fuel w/o the highway tax added on.

 DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage if sealed properly. Gas
 DP> goes stale in a few months time.

I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
that they are more "fuel efficient".

I'm still partial to propane. Less handling, cleaner for the air,
and for the engine.

Ian



... Tagline dropped due to budget cuts.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:47 EDT 1994
Article: 926 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar/nuke
Message-ID: <7c9_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:34:33 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bob Paddock
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (02 Aug 94) Bob Paddock wrote to Don Kulha...

 DK> We operate under the concept that the only nuke we'll ever
 DK> need is conveniently 93 million miles away.

 BP> Doesn't that leave out water power, wind, tides, etc?

As I'm sure others will point out, water and wind power *are*
essentially from the sun originally, and tides are from the moon.

 BP> And what about if some thing new comes along, say a working
 BP> kitchen table top Cold Fusion unit?

If "working" means it's actually safe and doesn't leave us with more
problems than it solves, then I think we should be open to the
possibility. But I personally will have a bias against it if I can't
tinker with it with my grandchildren watching. 




Ian



... ". . . . . . . ... . . . . . . .!"  -Marcel Marceu


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:49 EDT 1994
Article: 927 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: HP #42
Message-ID: <7ca_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 01:26:21 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kuhla
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,

Two items from the current HP piqued my interest. One was Richard's
re-write of the article on building a DC engine generator.

What *I* need to know is if anyone is building and selling the field
controller that he talks about. I'm not an intrepid electronic
builder, but I do need such a controller for my gen. It would need
to be useable on 24 volts and up to 150 amps. 

Does Richard have an e-mail address so I could throw these questions
at him directly? 

The other thing that caught me eye was in the article about the
"Suncoaster". The author mentions taking his students on a tour of
the Siemens plant in Vancouver, WA. Have you or anyone else here
toured this plant, or other PV manufacturing facilities? Sounds like
a good field trip for my kids and me.




Ian



... `ll gjjk Thiogd (`ok adB{) cjfn Tj dhn Th`T w`iTd.


From 5889ww@svpal.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:49 EDT 1994
Article: 928 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: 5889ww@svpal.org (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Subscribe
Date: 12 Aug 1994 21:26:32 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 7
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.88.9408121402.A12300-0100000@svpal.svpal.org>
References: <199408121554.LAA18142@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 12 Aug 1994, John Taylor wrote:

> subscribe renew-energy
> 
> 


From lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca Sun Aug 14 12:12:50 EDT 1994
Article: 929 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!halifax-24-4.nstn.ns.ca!lmacneil
From: lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Lorne MacNeil   )
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Geothermal
Date: 12 Aug 1994 09:53:24 -0300
Organization: Nova Scotia Technology Network
Lines: 33
Sender: news@nstn.ns.ca
Message-ID: <lmacneil.2.776695987@fox.nstn.ns.ca>
References: <2cf_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <326hna$moo@elaine.teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: owl.nstn.ns.ca
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <326hna$moo@elaine.teleport.com> bwartman@teleport.com (Brad Wartman) writes:
fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn) writes:>
>
>> JB> I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
>> JB> the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
>> JB> deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
>> JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
>> JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
>> JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
>> JB> done in a practical way?
>
>>Geothermal power?  Sure, it's being used in lots of remote locations.  The
>>trouble with geothermal is that you've got to drill into a very hot formation
>>(like an underground volcano) for it to be practical so it's very location
>>dependent.  In most locations, the bottom hole temperature at 3000' would only
>>be on the order of 60-70 degrees F. - not hot enough to do the job.
>
>>I have drilled oil wells here in Oklahoma where you couldn't handle the bits
>>when they were pulled from the hole because they were too hot.
>
>Another serious problem with geothermal is that water, being the great
>solvent that it is, will dissolve large quantities of minerals when very hot
>and under high pressure. When the water is brought to the surface, the drop
>in pressure and temperature cause minerals to come out of solution, being
>both corrosive and creating large amounts of solids (scale) in pipes.
>-- 
There is a project in place in Springhill, N.S., Canada you may be 
interested in. What they have done is to drill into old mine workings 
beneath the town. The workings are flooded and the water is warmed by 
geothermal activity. As mentioned above, the water is not hot enough to use 
to generate electricity with but they are able to extract heat with a heat 
pump and use it for process and space heating. The water is then returned to 
another part of the mine to be reheated.


From 5889ww@svpal.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:50 EDT 1994
Article: 930 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: 5889ww@svpal.org (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: help w/batt. memory, please
Date: 12 Aug 1994 21:54:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.88.9408121415.A13220-0100000@svpal.svpal.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


Place weak batteries in a flashlight and leave it on for a half hour.  
Then charge them one hour longer than you have before.


From rabii@netcom.com Sun Aug 14 12:12:51 EDT 1994
Article: 931 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: California Regulatory Activities
Message-ID: <rabiiCuFr39.EnI@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 18:52:20 GMT
Lines: 32
Status: O
X-Status: 


A few weeks back I posted a note stating where information regarding
California's ZEV, ULEV, and LEV requirements can be obtained.  That post
has resulted in many request for information sources about all
environmental regulatory activity, not just air pollution.  Therefore, I
am making a public offer which I hope some of you might find useful.

The California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) publishes a monthly
report which summarizes the activity of all environmental regulatory
bodies in the state (including those of some local districts).  If you want
to be put on the mailing list for this publication, you have three choices:

  1.  E-Mail me your name and mailing address, and I will put you on the list.
  2.  Fax your request for addition to the list to (916) 445-5563
  3.  Write to:

                Cal/EPA
                555 Capitol Mall, Suite 235
                Sacramento, CA  95814


Take your pick!  Feel free to circulate this message to anyone who you think
might be interested.

Thanks -


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From conover@max.tiac.net Sun Aug 14 12:12:51 EDT 1994
Article: 932 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!news.i-link.com!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Date: 12 Aug 1994 19:33:14 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <32gipr$eud@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <a6b_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <BERGSTRO.94Aug10192424@analysis.src.honeywell.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Pete Bergstrom (bergstro@src.honeywell.com) wrote:

[snip, snip, for brevity]

: Whether or not Don zaps the gateway today, he'd have absolutely no
: control over the Usenet newsgroup. It would continue on and probably
: have about the same traffic as it does now.

: > Fidonet and Usenet seemingly operate under somewhat different rules
: > of order.

: Absolutely right.

: Pete

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete, you're absolutely right.

However....

When the original Fidonet group linked with Usenet, it was probably
to make the group accessible to a much wider audience, by taking 
advantage of the broader communications capabilities offered by 
Internet.  I doubt if much advance thought was given to the open
nature of an unmoderated, alternative hierarchy Usenet newsgroup.

(The following is not intended to be either a flame or a put-down,
rather, a recap of my observations and impressions.)

The original Fidonet group consisted (and probably still does)
largely of autonomous home energy enthusiasts that as a group
seem to hold, at least when viewed by Usenet criteria, somewhat 
parochial or provincial attitudes, knowledge and viewpoints.

Rather than attempting to understand and benefit from the broad
wealth of technical insight available via Usenet postings, participants
tend to reject and flame any ideas presented that deviate from their
'group think.'  Reactions observed are analogous to those
received when scientific and technical people attempt to engage
in discussions within paranormal, occult, UFO, or New Age type 
groups.

Evidently, belief structures of the 'true believers' are almost always
regarded as sacred, and any challenge to these beliefs is perceived as
blasphemy. It seems strange to find this attitude in a group having
a quasi-technical orientation, but when viewed from my perspective,
it exists here.

Roughly a month ago, I had the audacity to suggest that nuclear power
provide the centralized energy source required for millions of electric or
Hydrogen fueled automobiles.  One posting only!  Almost immediately,
I received a note from Don Kuhla requesting that I refrain from posting
my opinions on nuclear in alt.energy.renewable, and stating that
"We" have already determined that (omitting his hyperbole) this is
not a viable alternative. Regardless of my disagreement with Don's
viewpoint, I have complied with his request.  Flames responding to
that singular post continue to appear through today, ironically many 
complaining about having to wade through all the pro-nuke propaganda
that has recently been posted in the newsgroup!

Other posts offering factual technical information (unrelated 
to nuclear power issues) or attempting to correct posted scientific
or technical misinformation have been either been flamed, 
criticized, or received a luke-warm reception.  Fortunately, non has 
received the emotional, knee-jerk flame response that  my nuclear post 
did, but I understand this.   Anti-nuclear, like anti-smoking, anti-gun, 
and Creationism are religious beliefs to some and as such, are not
open to discussion or debate.

But...

Group participants do have every right to *request* that
certain subject matter or opinions not be posted, however,
within the unmoderated Usenet alternative hierarchy structure, 
none have the right to demand this, nor the power to impose
this will on others.  Most reasonable people will, 
however, comply with such a request if they deem it
appropriate and understand the underlying reasons.
I have done so.

If voluntary compliance is insufficient, the group 
could, I suspect, changed to a moderated group, where
only those postings specifically approved by the newsgroup 
Moderators appear. Unfortunately, this places an
enormous burden on the Moderators, and postings
are usually delayed a substantial period of time, 
making active debate and discussion difficult.  

Naturally, another option is severing  the link with
Fidonet, however, to me this seems to be 'throwing out the
baby with the bath water.'  Fido members would appear
the net losers in such a move, while Internet  readers
and posters would likely remain relatively unaffected. 

Still, I fail to understand the necessity for any of this.
As a quasi-technical newsgroup, there should exist no
need to protect readers from dissenting viewpoints or
off-topic postings, as must be done in, lets say, a
mental health support or recovery group.  Postings of
a technical nature and the statement of a personal opinion
should not trigger an adverse psychological or physical
reaction in normal humans, hence, these is no compelling
need to protect anyone from such posts. 

If someone does not agree with a post, they can simply
skip or ignore it.  Here, resource expenditure is minimal.
Usenet readers have the option of using a Kill File as well,
gives them the ability to effectively disappear all postings
from selected individuals or subjects.  I don't know if this 
capability exists on Fidonet or not, however, likely an 
equivalent capability is likely present.  Unfortunately, 
many prefer to rant and flame, rather than to simply
ignore something.  In this respect, the Fidonet
people don't differ from Usenet participants.  

All in all, its like the man said: "If you want to play in the
big leagues, you better learn hardball."  As applied to 
Internet and Usenet, this translates to learning tolerance
and respect for others.  Even if you have no respect
for a person's opinion, you *must* respect his/her
right to hold an opinion.  If you find this impossible,
you are in the wrong place.

Kindest regards...  

                                           Harry C.


PS.  Yes, I know that I have flamed on occasion.
        We're all human!  (Whoops, that would be
        considered a flame in 'alt.aliens'...)






From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:52 EDT 1994
Article: 933 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <4c5_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 85
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Gale Barrows to Tony Cygan <=-

 TC> > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 TC> > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 TC> > ICE.
 
 TC> LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?
 
 TC>Yea me too !
 
 TC>People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
 TC>More people are driving...(increasing population)
 
 TC>So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and
 TC>better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
 TC>an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
 TC>the same scale as the population increases their driving.

 GB> I think a major source of polution may well be the transmission of the
 GB> extra electricity 
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     What extra electricity ?  As long as the vehicles are 
     charged during the night during the utilities low demand
     times then we will have no problems with needing extra
     power plants.  In fact the power companies would very
     much like this to happen, because it will allow them to 
     better utilize their facilities.

     I saw a number once that said that So.California Edison
     could handle (I think it was) 600,000 electric vehicles
     with no additional power generation capicity being needed.
     The caveat was that they needed to be charged during the
     night. 
     
     I do not know how opportunity charging would effect this 
     equation.  My guess would be that if 600,000 EV's were 
     on the road in So.California and did opportunity charging 
     on a regular basis that 1 new power plant would be required.  
     BUT, can you imagine how long it will take to get 600,000 
     EV's on the road in the USA let alone So. California ???

 GB>                   and the manufacture, vaporisation and disposal o
 GB> car components such as batteries. A local battery distributor (for a
 GB> major manufacturer that is not intrastate 8-} ) says that he only gets
 GB> one battery back for recycling for every 10-15 that he sells. The rest
 GB> are going in dumps. 

     This sounds like a PR problem to me.  My guess is that 
     the company is not encouraging the return of old batteries
     so they are not getting them.  There are still many places
     that do not take in old batteries when you buy a new one
     and this needs to change.  I remember when I was living in
     Chicago that people would steal batteries out of cars to
     sell as scrap.  Recyclers gave $5.00 per battery...
 
 GB>                     The battery emissions and disposal alone probably
 GB> create as much polution nationwide as internal combustion cars in good
 GB> condition do nationwide. 

     Batteries don't have any emissions other than Hydrogen gas 
     and returning old batteries in for recycling would of course
     need to be part of the package when you buy new ones.
 
 GB>                          Then you have the tremendously larger amounts
 GB> of electrity that hs to be carried on whole new networks.
 GB> Manufacturing, transporting and installing that wire is going to create
 GB> considerable pollution. It wouldn't surprise mwe that total effects
 GB> might be higher for electric cars although transmission line
 GB> construction would be a one time thing.

     Most of this was covered above.  I will agree that current
     production cars are getting much better at reducing the
     amount of pollution they are spewing into the air, but with
     time these vehicles will fall into disrepair and the owners
     will not get them fixed.  Also with the increase in the
     population and more people driving it doesn't matter how
     good the emmisions are, if they put out any emmisions at
     all we will surpass up our current output of pollution and
     still be in trouble.


... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:52 EDT 1994
Article: 934 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge f
Message-ID: <4c6_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 19:55:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 56
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Davehatunen to All <=-

 Da> In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
 Da> Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
 >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
 >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
 >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
 >
 >A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
 >produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
 >is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
 >In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
 >a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
 >would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
 >were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
 >standard D.C. charger. 
 >
 >The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
 >conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
 >and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
 >the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
 >
 >Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
 >the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
 >do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
 >Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
 >plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
 >Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
 >from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
 >deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

 Da> Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

 Da> Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
 Da> take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
 Da> would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
 Da> of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
 Da> The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
 Da> could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
 Da> must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
 Da> a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
 Da> gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

This equipment would not likely end up as a home recharge
unit, but rather would be something for a "Quick Charge"
facility.  Sort of like your local gas station.  

If you were taking an extended trip to the next town and 
were getting low on charge, you'd pull in and get a charge, 
then be on your way again or perhaps get ready for the 
return home.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:53 EDT 1994
Article: 935 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Ideas For Work At Home
Message-ID: <4c7_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 20:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Julie Seberry
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Julie Seberry to All <=-

 JS> Hi. I need to earn at least just a small amount of money at 
 JS> home. Has anyone got any new ideas, besides babysitting, 
 JS> which I now do. I like it, but I would like to do something 
 JS> with more flexible hours, perhaps at night after all my 
 JS> kids are asleep. ANY ideas would be welcome. Thanks. Julie 
 JS> Seberry.

Julie, 

You might stop by your local bookstore and pick up a
copy of a magazine called Home Office Computing.

The mag lists many stories by real life folks on
what they do from home offices. 

Whlie this subject is not directly related to Renwable
Energy or Home Power, it could be that Julie is like
many other people out there who would like to live off 
the grid, but need to find a way to pay for it.

Tony



... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:12:54 EDT 1994
Article: 936 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: alternative
Message-ID: <4c8_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 05:33:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 35
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 20:09:38
 santarosa,ca,usa:
hey mSfx,       <--hope you don't mind the butch ;'>
 ++
Ms>  > (2) what is "alternative"?

Ms>     What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
Ms> something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most
Ms> AE
Ms> falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
Ms> mainstream (yet).
 ++

be carefull with definition. i believe the "real", accepted def of 
alternative is simply  -a choice, choices-  (look it up)
 now this  *is language and meanings change with usage (just look at 
giddy or bitch, or left and right, or 2,389,974 other words; English 
is especially a flailer), but on the whole, words still keep there 
original meaning and often end up with multiple meanings.

i think alternative has definately kept it's original meaning
(again- one choice, out of a group of options)
 in fact "your" alternate;'> meaning seems to be more of a "buzz word" 
than an actual definition.

so..what is alternative energy??

i don't know, but the name of this discussion group, at least on the 
Fido side: "Alternative Energy and Home Power"  indicates to me that 
this is a place to discuss OPTIONS (all of them)
peace
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:54 EDT 1994
Article: 937 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <4cf_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 11:53:49 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (08 Aug 94) Elvis Hargrove wrote to Dave Skinner...

 EH> -> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link? This used to
 EH> -> be a pretty friendly place with folks describing what they
 EH> -> might want to do or try.

 EH> Afraid I'm gonna have to second the motion Dave. They come
 EH> into a perfectly happy echo and start throwing their weight
 EH> around, criticizing the regulars.

 EH> If the situation doesn't show drastic improvement I'm
 EH> probably just gonna drop this echo as another casualty on the
 EH> "Information Highway."

I vote to give it a little more time. Though I agree that it has not
been an entirely pleasant experience.

I find that ignoring people who just want to pick nits or wander off
the topic is the best way to quiet them down. Or take it to netmail
if you just can't resist returning fire. (Hey Don, is telling 
someone that he is off-topic off-topic in this echo? <g>)


BTW, Elvis, did you get my netmail about the monitors? It went out
around a time when my host's host's host was having a temper fit and
I lost a few days' mail.

Ian



... Crime doesn't pay... does that mean my job is a crime?


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:55 EDT 1994
Article: 938 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <4d0_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 11:35:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) Gale Barrows wrote to Don Kulha...

 GB> I too would be interested in propane conversion kits for
 GB> small engines (larger ones also) but do not know sources. 

I don't either, but I don't think it would be too hard to find out.
Mine came through the local Honda dealer who installed it. If I
were looking, I'd try calling my local propane distributor (Amerigas
or otherwise) and asking for sources. 

Impco is a very common brand of converter, in case that helps.

 GB> One thing that I find hard to understand is a natural gas
 GB> fired generator...
 GB> If there is a disaster of the type where electricity is lost,
 GB> would not NG also be cut off ???

Sounds sensible to me, as that's the only way I've heard of NG being
supplied.



Ian



... Why doesn't the fattest man in the world become a hockey goalie?


From Elijah.Chancey@f19.n3640.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:55 EDT 1994
Article: 939 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3640-19-0!Elijah.Chancey
From: Elijah.Chancey@f19.n3640.z1.fidonet.org (Elijah Chancey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Vacation
Message-ID: <4dc_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 13:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Southern Gentleman
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: IBM Spoken Lang Syst
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: ispeech@cais.cais.com (IBM Spoken Lang Syst) 
 On 07-29-94 IBM Spoken Lang Syst wrote to All... 
 
 IS> From: ispeech@cais.cais.com (IBM Spoken Lang Syst) 
 IS> Date: 29 Jul 94 20:45:19 GMT 
 IS>  
 IS>  
 IS> How about information where I could purchase one, say in the 8-10 hp 
 IS> range? 
 IS>  
 IS> Thanks 
 IS>  
 IS> --- 
 IS>  * Origin: Usenet:Capital Area Internet Service (1:3641/1) 
 
     One what? A 10 hp engine? Are you talking about horse power? 
 
 
 
... OFFLINE 1.38 * Daddy, what does formating c:\ mean? 


From 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:56 EDT 1994
Article: 940 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-275-136-0!3rd.I
From: 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org (3rd I)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TRAVEL TIP
Message-ID: <4e7_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 01:21:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Over 80 doors available for you!! (804)545-2097
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Chris Clark
Status: O
X-Status: 

@ORIGIN :HOME OF BRE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE 253 (VA HUB) (1:275/154)   N
Well, travel is pretty domestic <G> Thought that this may of interest-
Thanks for not flaming me, but I guess it can be ignred!
/s


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 14 12:12:57 EDT 1994
Article: 941 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <4ed_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 20:04:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: IAN WOOFENDEN
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW> On (04 Aug 94) ERIC GRAY wrote to DAVE PAXTON...

IW>  EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

IW>  EG> Also you can then buy fuel w/o the highway tax added on.

IW>  DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage if sealed properly. Gas
  >  DP> goes stale in a few months time.

IW> I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
  > pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

I don't THINK that's right. It does put out a different type of
pollution, but not sure if it's any more harmfull than traditionaly
gasonline engines.

IW> I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
  > that they are more "fuel efficient".

IW> I'm still partial to propane. Less handling, cleaner for the air,
  > and for the engine.

No arguemnentsf from me, but diesel generators are here now, and fuel is
ez to get and fairly cheap. I've never compared propane to diesel in
this application.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * "No free men shall every be debarred the use of arms." TJ


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Sun Aug 14 12:12:57 EDT 1994
Article: 942 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!yale!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CuG1Ht.Du8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 22:37:04 GMT
References: <4ed_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

ERIC GRAY (ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: IW> I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
:   > pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

: I don't THINK that's right. It does put out a different type of
: pollution, but not sure if it's any more harmfull than traditionaly
: gasonline engines.

Yes and no. I don't believe that there is a diesel auto in the world that 
would meet California's present emission stds without special exemptions.

However, most of the problem with a diesel comes from acceleration.

Hence a generator running at pretty constant speed and tuned up
right may indeed be quite clean. Similarly once a typical modern diesel
car gets up to speed it settles into a fairly clean operation.


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun Aug 14 12:12:58 EDT 1994
Article: 943 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 22:47:05 GMT
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>,
Sven Noren <edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I suspect this thread to be an urban legend. If you steal energy from the transmission lines the resulting electricity will be one-phased. Some equipment in the household, expects to be fead with tree-phased current as delivered from the electric company. I doubt that it is worth while to steal electricity considering the bad quality you wil get.
>Also I dont think the resulting current will be 50 Hz, so using it in ordinary equipment would anyhow require transforming it to 50Hz.
>Why not steal power from the wind instead?
>/Sven

That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
household items using three-phase?




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dbrewste@netcom.com Sun Aug 14 12:12:58 EDT 1994
Article: 944 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 01:56:52 GMT
Lines: 13
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:

: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
: household items using three-phase?


You won't find three phase in very many (any?) American houses.  Have you 
perhaps mixed up 240v power and three phase?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From schwartz@.sybase.com Sun Aug 14 12:12:59 EDT 1994
Article: 945 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!psinntp!halon!sybase!schwartz
From: schwartz@.sybase.com (John Schwartz)
Subject: power line tapping
Message-ID: <CuE5Cw.Ftn@sybase.com>
Sender: usenet@sybase.com
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 22:05:19 GMT
Lines: 6
Status: O
X-Status: 

The losses associated with the magnetic flux along power lines are minimal
until someone puts a loop in the way.  Then the greater the "short" read that load
the greater the losses.  The way I read it, it is theft.  I believe
there is case law on this RE farmers and power line easments.
js



From igt@wimsey.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 946 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!mdisea!mmddvan!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme23.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: One vote for A.E.R. on the Usenet!
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 15:45:29 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <igt.61.2E4A4799@wimsey.com>
References: <cef_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme23.pomo.wis.net
Keywords: A.E.R. endorsement
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <cef_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us> Don.Kulha@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us
 (Don Kulha) writes:

>Mission Statement ------

>   The purpose of alt.energy.renewable is to promote the widest possible
>   discussion on the subject of Practical Renewable Energy technology,
>   it's application and development. The emphasis is on real-world systems
>   and technology available now and how people apply and live with it. The
>   conference is inspired by Home Power magazine and the practical, hands
>   on, gentle on the earth, approach to RE they promote. Some subjects of
>   discussion are: solar power, photvoltaics, hydropower, wind power, EVs,
>   energy conservation, solar cookers and cooking, batteries, waste minim-
>   ization, solar hot water, water pumping, and the products available in
>   this field. We're into safe, clean home-made energy using the only nuke
>   we'll ever need (convieniently 93 million miles away).

Hello, A.E.R. Community!

I'd like to voice my hearty support for maintaining the Usenet part of this 
forum.

My main purpose in getting on the 'Net was to seek sources of 
information on how to design, build and operate buildings in a more 
environmentally friendly manner.  This forum, for all of 
it's teething pains, is a tremendous opportunity to hear more about real-world 
experience toward solving one of the largest issues we must face globally.  
A newsgroup with the mission statement quoted above is, to me, a major tool 
for spreading the how-to knowledge to the world.

I'm sorry that discussions seem to have degenerated into flame bait like the 
Renewable vs. Nukes argument, a la Sci.Energy.  It sounds like the 
lists' previous incarnation was more what I had in mind when I started 
exploration several months ago - a pity that opening to the Usenet has 
upset that original meeting place.

That said, there are excellent reasons to allow *off-topic* debates to rage - 
one of the big advantages of newsgroups is the exposure to critical thought, 
especially from those with a completely opposing point of view.  How else 
can we learn what the central concerns are of those fearful or doubtful of 
these technologies?  At best, it will make the group's common goal - wide 
dissemination of renewable energy knowledge - that much better, since we will 
have seen and debated the issues.  Know thine enemy!  

For those who have heard enough about Nukes vs. Renewables, I'd suggest a kill 
file.  From my lurking, it seems that there are really only a few people that 
enjoy this "pot-stirring".

I hope that the old-timers on the list will be patient with the new 
arrangement - they have a lot to offer to newbies like myself.  Thanks for the 
pioneering effort, and helping to get the word out that the day for renewable 
energy and conservation is *now*.  Please don't pull my alt.energy.renewable 
because of a few disagreements - the Usenet *needs* these thoughts and 
experience!



>P.S. - So, has anyone seen Elvis lately?.....

Not personally, Don, but I heard he was sighted on the West Coast Trail on 
Vancouver Island, trying to get his guitar amp running from a Real Goods roll- 
out PV array....


Sayonara, y'all, & keep up the good work!

Ian G. Theaker


From jbvb@elf.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:00 EDT 1994
Article: 947 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cold battery banks (was 'NiFe batteries')
Date: 13 Aug 1994 08:08:24 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <32hv1o$dai@usenet.elf.com>
References: <7c7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden) writes:

>For now my lead acid bank is still performing pretty well, though I
>lose efficiency in the winter. But I would like to learn about
>what's out there now so I know what my options are when it's time to
>upgrade.

My PV system's batteries are in an unheated barn, and it reaches -20F
here frequently.  My first box was pretty well insulated, and we hoped
that internal heating would keep them warm.  This hasn't worked out
quite as I had hoped: In '93 (when I ran off-grid almost all the time,
and charged the batteries from the grid when they got low) they got
down to ~40F.  In '94 I mostly switched the house to grid when the
batteries were low and let the PV run only the barn loads, and the
bank got down to ~32F.

We've just finished re-building the box. Now the batteries are
supported above the floor, insulation is thicker (6" rigid foam in the
lid, for instance), and the box is tighter overall.  However, the
thing I expect to make the biggest difference is a solar hot air
collector/circulator made out of a 34"x76" glass door double glazing
unit and its own PV panel to drive a 3" muffin fan.  Today when I
tested it hot air was coming into the box at ~40F above ambient, and
the collector wasn't even all illuminated (I mounted it vertically,
under the eaves, with the intent that it work best when the sun is low).

I'm planning to submit an article on this to Home Power, but only after
I see how it performs this winter.  Maybe May '95?  One thing I know
for sure is that even with the re-build, I've spent nowhere near what
a new NiCd bank this size would have cost...

jbvb

--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From igt@wimsey.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:01 EDT 1994
Article: 948 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!mdisea!mmddvan!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme23.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: CREST AE WWW and Gopher sites (Xpost)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 17:01:19 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <igt.65.2E4A595F@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme23.pomo.wis.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi there, AER community!

Found this on the AE Listserv, and thought it would be of interest to the 
group.  I just got back from their WWW site, and found MUCH useful stuff: 
links to the Electric Ideas Clearinghouse, Lawrence Berkeley Labs, the NREL, 
American Hydrogen Association, PV advice, and much more....

Unfortunately, the Canadian sites on "Green" housing and the federal ministry 
Natural Resources Canada won't let me connect, and there are some other 
(minor) issues, soon to be corrected, I suspect.

A hearty thanks to CREST!


Sayonara, y'all!

Ian G. Theaker

========================================================
Cross-post of AE ListServ announcement follows:

>Date:    Wed, 10 Aug 1994 20:22:31 -0400
>From:    Michael Totten <totten@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
>Subject: Re: Solar energy electronic bulletins

>The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
>located in Washington, DC is setting up a variety of internet tools
>for users to access info about solar and renewable energy.  We also have
>an electronice newsletter distributed quarterly.  To be added to our
>electronic distribution list send an email to Deborah Anderson, CREST's
>Director of Communications and Outreach at <danderso@digex.net>

>Also check our our gopher and web sites:
>gopher gopher.crest.org
>http://solstice.crest.org/


>Michael Totten, Director
>Center for Renewable Energy & Sustainable Technology
>777 N. Capitol St NE, Suite 805, Wash, DC 20002
>PH: (202) 289-5368 FAX: (202) 289-5354 email: totten@digex.net



From jbvb@elf.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:02 EDT 1994
Article: 949 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 13 Aug 1994 07:47:34 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32htqm$cl3@usenet.elf.com>
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:

>.... It's hard to think of anything in an American house
>that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
>electric furnaces, but that's about it...

240VAC appliances with 4-wire (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) curcuits are
not 3-phase.  Real 3-phase tends to be 208V and has 3 hot wires.  It
is generally the province of industrial & farm eqipment (3HP motors &
up), and doesn't even reach my town's border (which limits the size of
wind generator I can install, but that's another story).

jbvb
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From igt@wimsey.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:02 EDT 1994
Article: 950 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!mdisea!mmddvan!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme23.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Average $$$ for a home PV system?
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 16:08:14 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <igt.62.2E4A4CEE@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme23.pomo.wis.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello AER community!

I'm a consulting mechanical engineer, specialising in building energy 
conservation and environmental impacts.  

I'd like to know just how much a "average" home PV system costs, from people 
who have installed and used one.  

One of the major arguments of resistant builders and designers is "It's not 
economic!".  I'd like to demonstrate differently, with hard facts and real 
examples.  I suspect that many others on this list would also appreciate your 
sharing your experience, so chime in!

I'd be happy to collate a summary for reposting to AER; I'd appreciate having 
postings to the newsgroup on this thread also emailed to me directly; it would 
help since I only check the group every couple of days, and I'd hate to miss 
some. 

Please include some technical details, such as where your are, average 
insolation, total installed PV peak wattage, storage capacity and battery 
type, system voltage, any electrical conservation measures used in the home, 
and, if it's available, annual or monthly electrical energy use.  Did you 
install it yourself, or was it done professionally?  Estimates of labour costs 
in your locale?   Any other special information, such as if you are 
grid-connected and sell power to the utility, would also 
be welcome.

Thanks in advance, and keep up the excellent work.


Sayonara, y'all!

Ian G. Theaker



From averyj@eskimo.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:03 EDT 1994
Article: 951 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Message-ID: <CuGnzE.JDv@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu> <32cmvj$j79@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 06:42:49 GMT
Lines: 4
Status: O
X-Status: 


Do you know of any specific cases where PV modules got crushed by snow ? 
I would really like to contact folks who have lost panels this way to 
find out specific data about it.


From dkulha@crl.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:04 EDT 1994
Article: 952 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Date: 13 Aug 1994 19:25:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 45
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408131109.A24035-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CuDy0A.E33@csn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Eric Toler wrote:

> Hooking up pvs to a high efficiency heat pump is not a bad idea.  However,
> a better idea, touched on by the native mediterrainian architecture
> example, is to lower the cooling load as much as possible up front.......
> 
> THINK SYSTEMS, NOT COMPONENTS!!
> 
> Eric Toler
> Rocky Mountain Institute
> 

    Excellent point Eric and I thank you for pointing it out. It's taken 
me a while to figure this out and in looking back I can see where I've 
erred some in this respect in the past. It's all to easy to get 
tunnelvision and concentrate on just one part of a complex system to the 
detriment of overall system performance.....

     I went to the SF International airport with a friend recently who 
was preparing to bid on a new CAD (-Dispatch) system for the security 
communications system there. In one of the dispatchers rooms they had 
just done a lighting "upgrade"....and replaced their flourescent lighting 
with 28, 75w incandescent lights. The alledged reason for this was the 
flicker associated with their old lights. In addition to the CAD system 
they were planning on upgrading their airconditioning system since the 
old one wasn't able to cool the room sufficently anymore. I pointed out 
that they could likely replace the IC bulbs with compact flourescents and 
avoid the cost of the airconditioning upgrade as well as saving over 
$1000 per year on electricity plus the savings on maintanence. They never 
considered the fact that their A/C would be affected by the lighting when 
they "upgraded" the lights. Additionally their UPS system to keep the 
dispatch center running also sourced the lighting. I also silently 
wondered how long it would take to "cook" the dispatchers out of the room 
when the A/C (which didn't have backup power) went down (they have some 
new dual pane sealed windows....).

     DCK

P.S. - Although outside of the relm of the project I went their to 
discuss I'm writing the dispatch center supervisor a note outlining these 
considerations and suggestions.




From dkulha@crl.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:04 EDT 1994
Article: 953 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SOLAR-1 CDROM
Date: 13 Aug 1994 19:52:36 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 20
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408131258.A25719-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


We're publishing a CDROM you might want to know about....

*SOLAR-1* Renewable Energy. ISO 9660 format, 325m/3400+ files
Content: Text/graphics Home Power Magazine #1-37, Various texts,
newsletters, graphics and programs on renewables; Wind, Hydro,
PV's, Biofuels, hydrogen, batteries, controls, thermal, glazings,
controls, solar cookers and more (45mb).

Also: A general collection of Mac and PC software (shareware, PD and
demos), GIF's and texts are included. Mac Programs require macbinary
conversion before use.

Available Now, $29US postpaid. International Air delivery $3, CA
add 7.5% sales tax.  Sonoma Online, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407
Visa/MC orders please call Home Power Magazine @ (916)475-0830

For info: dkulha@crl.com, send SASE, call (707)545-7533 or FAX (707)
526-9473. If we're out please leave us your fax number. Thanks...DCK



From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 14 12:13:05 EDT 1994
Article: 954 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Message-ID: <501_9408130147@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 13:42:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >    I don't know about anyone else, but I read this Fidonet echo as 
 > HOMEPOWR.  By definition, "home power" is that energy produced for 
 > and used in the *home*, not by industry or for the grid or whatever. 
 >  What does nuclear have to do with renewable home power generation?  
 > I am yet to see a reactor sitting next to someone's patio furniture 
 > and I hope I never do.

Point taken about nukes not often being found in back yards, Dave - thank the
goddess.  I suppose it was the rather impolitic way discussion about nukes was
banned from the echo that set me off.
 
It's my experience that those of us engaging in discussion about anything
"alternative" often end up speaking only to ourselves and that we tend to
assume certain ideas and attitudes are accepted as fact by all.  Not true of
course.  To me, opposing views set forth by reasonable people can only spice up
the discussion - that's what I was looking for in the discussion about nukes.
 
Anyway, I've gotta go tend the fuel rods out back.
 


From Datnoid@aol.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:05 EDT 1994
Article: 955 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Datnoid@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 13 Aug 1994 23:45:01 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 57
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408131927.tn1063293@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Several weeks ago I posted a note of my recent successfull transformation of
a "junked" Hotpoint refrigerator/freezer into a highly efficient solar
powered refrigerator.  What follows is a brief summary:

> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah
nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Mr. Lewis corrects with:
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

Mr. Kulhua adds:
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> Mr. Lewis replies:
You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.


Which brings us back to the original post.
In reply to Mr. Lewis I would rather spread the word of successful uses of AE
for personal use rather than debate whether or not the proper unit of energy
was used.  Mr. Lewis only obscurs the fact that the design and retrofitting
of a "junked" refrigerator with a highly efficient compressor/evaporator
coupled with added insulation worked!

I've kept a track of the energy use for the last two weeks and have found it
to consistently use less that .55kwh per day in energy consumption.  Or, an
average of 44Ah @12vdc in a 24 hour period.

Either way the story is the same. Anyone who uses alternative energy for home
use would understand in an instant what I originally posted. 
Please don't waste my precious online time with picking nits.

  



From jbvb@elf.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:06 EDT 1994
Article: 956 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news2.near.net!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: One vote for A.E.R. on the Usenet!
Date: 14 Aug 1994 00:13:19 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <32jniv$qh@usenet.elf.com>
References: <cef_9408081033@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <igt.61.2E4A4799@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Keywords: A.E.R. endorsement
Status: O
X-Status: 

Some of the problem is structural - Internet News implies that a fair
fraction of people reading it have high-bandwidth connections, and use
newsreaders with fair to good ability to just blow away garbage
threads and twits who start religious arguments for no better reason
than to annoy the 'enemy'.  So, trash is generally tolerated on
NetNews in a way that might really bother someone who's paying for a
slow connection to a UI that doesn't support killfiles, or makes them
download most or all of every message before reading it.

I'm on the Internet side, and unlikely to call Oregon from my home,
so I hope I'm perceived as useful.  Ultimately, the decision to gateway
lies with the BBS sysop and the gateway maintainer, but as people
voice their opinions, keep in mind that there are alternatives to the
current NetNews situation that don't shut out the Internet entirely.

First, provided someone wanted to make the effort to be moderator, you
could change the group to be moderated.  This means that some godlike
being passes judgement on each message posted before it gets
distributed.  Many of the more flame-prone groups in NetNews have
split, with the hardshell types with time on their hands staying with
the unmoderated group.  You keep the broad distribution and low
administrative load of NetNews.

Second, still requiring effort on someone's part, but not nearly as
much, you could convert to a mailing list.  People e-mail requests to
subscribe, and the administrator can be arrogant and flush those who
aren't felt to fit the plan.  This loads the system handling
distribution more heavily, and it requires more effort and
sophistication for a person to join, but it is probably practical for
up to ~400 members.

Both cases require a time commitment from someone who's more than a
bit sophisticated about NNTP and SMTP, and probably shoould have
sysadmin privilidges on an Internet node with a high-bandwidth
connection to the rest of the world (in other words, not me these
days).

jbvb
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov Sun Aug 14 12:13:06 EDT 1994
Article: 957 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!csn!nrel!nrel!not-for-mail
From: jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov (Jeff Shapiro)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Sources for Solar Cells &
Date: 12 Aug 1994 08:12:09 -0600
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <32fvvp$n89@nrel.nrel.gov>
References: <7c2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nrel.nrel.gov
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Munday (Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

: Hi gang!

: 	Just checked into this group for the first time and have alot of
: 	questions but, I'll stick with an easy one first:
: 	
: 	Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment? i.e. Cells,
: 	Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...
: 	
: 	I lived in Germany for several years and it's easy to find that info
: 	there.  I'm going to the library to read up on basics.  Now am looking
: 	for sources for the appropriate materials/parts.
: 	
: Thanks & btw, reply here or to - rick.munday@dibbs.com - via Internet.

: Rick


There are several suppliers listed on the URl:
http://www.nrel.gov/research/division/pv/sunrayce/info/products/solarcells.html

These are the list of acceptable solar cells suppliers for Sunrayce 95.
If these people don't have what you're looking for, I'm sure they can
point you in the right direction.

Jeff Shapiro



From carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov Sun Aug 14 12:13:07 EDT 1994
Article: 958 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!csn!nrel!syssrv3!carries
From: carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov (Carrie Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Biofuels
Date: 13 Aug 94 04:18:28 GMT
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <carries.776751508@syssrv3>
References: <a30_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: syssrv3r.nrel.gov
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks) writes:

>        There are definitely problems with castor bean oil.  It spoils
>        and curds and plugs up oil systems.  Castor is a great racing
>        lube but for everyday use it doesn't cut it.  We used to burn
>        castor in 2 stroke motorcycles and the premix would only be good
>        for the day.  In 4 stroke engines the oil is drained after the
>        race usually while the engine is still warm.

On the other hand, a simple conversion of vegetable oil to methyl
esters solves this gumming problem. Europe is already using
"biodiesel" ( mostly from rapeseed oil) at a commercial scale. There
are efforts underway in this country to produce enough to sell.

Carrie Schneider

-- 
Carrie Schneider, Ph.D.
National Renewable Energy Lab
1617 Cole Boulevard
Golden, CO 80401 303-384-6119


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun Aug 14 12:13:07 EDT 1994
Article: 959 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCuIJtI.Jzx@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com> <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 07:08:06 GMT
Lines: 26
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>,
Dick Brewster <dbrewste@netcom.com> wrote:
>DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
>: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
>: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
>: household items using three-phase?
>
>You won't find three phase in very many (any?) American houses.  Have you 
>perhaps mixed up 240v power and three phase?

What are you getting at here? Are you challenging my statement about
some electric ranges (most are actually single phase 220v -- that's why
I said "some") or about electric furnaces? Electric furnaces aren't too
common because of the cost compared to natural or bottled gas, except
in the Pacific Northwest; when I lived there electricity cost us $.015
per killowatt hour -- we thought our first electric bill was a mistake.
And I beleive the electric furnaces were three-phase.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se Wed Aug 17 22:42:46 EDT 1994
Article: 905 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!ericom!toedts1c49!edssrn
From: edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se (Sven Noren)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: toedts1c49.ericsson.se
Reply-To: edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Data Services
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 09:15:53 GMT
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

I suspect this thread to be an urban legend. If you steal energy from the transmission lines the resulting electricity will be one-phased. Some equipment in the household, expects to be fead with tree-phased current as delivered from the electric company. I doubt that it is worth while to steal electricity considering the bad quality you wil get.
Also I dont think the resulting current will be 50 Hz, so using it in ordinary equipment would anyhow require transforming it to 50Hz.
Why not steal power from the wind instead?
/Sven



From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:47 EDT 1994
Article: 906 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free Power?
Message-ID: <7a1_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 15:27:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 10:25:59
 santarosa,ca,usa:
Jim,
JD> > of course, i'm no expert ;'>

JD> That's for *damn* sure.

JD> -+- FLAME v1.1
JD>  + Origin: Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001 (1:234/2)

What the hell kind of useless FLAME is that, why don't you tell me what 
you really mean.
and if your an expert yourself why don't you share your knowledge
with the rest of us
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:48 EDT 1994
Article: 907 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <7a2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Darr Hoag
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 11:56:33
 santarosa,ca,usa:
Meister Hoag,
DH> @00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
DH> > hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their
DH> > location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline
DH> or
DH> > somfin

DH> Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

DH> ... Electricians do it in hot boxes!
DH> -+- FMail 0.99a+
DH>  + Origin: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA - (1:2330/4)

don'tKnow do all FidoBBSs have to have an origin line,  i seem to recall 
plenty of posts without any such beast. funny but there also seem
to be lot's of origin lines that don't give an actual location.
anyway i'm not sure what (if any) origin line my bbs tacks on but the 
location of the bBoard is NOT necissarily the same as where i live.
i expect this is especially true for some of the people that live in the 
farther out places.

besides you didn't even quote the good part of my post ;'>
 Na Zdrowie!!! 
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:42:49 EDT 1994
Article: 908 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: REALLY FAST CHARGE FOR EVS
Message-ID: <7a8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:41:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 

...might be a good system for gas(electricity?) stations though...
it'd cut down on inventory requirements for pack exchanges
...might be good to build into vehicles w/lower capacities/requirements, like
motorcycles/mopeds...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:42:51 EDT 1994
Article: 909 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NIFE BATTERIES
Message-ID: <7a9_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:48:23 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

...sounds like the beginning of a good part-time business...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:42:52 EDT 1994
Article: 911 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TRAVEL TIP
Message-ID: <7ab_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:13:10 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 1
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: 3rd I
Status: O
X-Status: 

why is this on home power?...


From brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:52 EDT 1994
Article: 912 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!brop9555_utdallas_edu
From: brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (brop9555@utdallas.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:13 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From Brian.McMinn@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:53 EDT 1994
Article: 913 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Brian.McMinn
From: Brian.McMinn@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Brian McMinn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7af_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 19:50:47 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:50:47 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:54 EDT 1994
Article: 914 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Message-ID: <7b0_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 20:55:03 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:55:03 GMT

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax


From Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:54 EDT 1994
Article: 915 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jeff.Bailey
From: Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <7b1_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 21:04:41 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:04:41 GMT

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:55 EDT 1994
Article: 916 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jack.Coats
From: Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jack Coats)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7b2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:58:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Amoco Corportation
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Date: 3 Aug 94 12:58:15 GMT

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org


From sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:56 EDT 1994
Article: 917 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com
From: sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanamid_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us (sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted powerrREGISTER
Message-ID: <7b3_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:26:12 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
Lines: 41
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Date: 3 Aug 94 18:26:12 GMT

In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com


From Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:42:59 EDT 1994
Article: 918 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Greg.Lewis
From: Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7b4_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 22:57:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:57:52 GMT

On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:00 EDT 1994
Article: 919 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <7b5_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:43:33 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:33 GMT

Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:02 EDT 1994
Article: 920 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural electrification
Message-ID: <7b6_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:48:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:48:14 GMT

Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:03 EDT 1994
Article: 921 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mandla.Sibanda
From: Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PV standards enquiry
Message-ID: <7b7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:51:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Date: 3 Aug 94 10:51:06 GMT

Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:07 EDT 1994
Article: 922 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Nick.Hopton
From: Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Nick Hopton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear Cooker
Message-ID: <7b8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:41:56 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Home, in Reading, England.
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:41:56 GMT

In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:09 EDT 1994
Article: 923 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3625-470-0!Rick.Munday
From: Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org (Rick Munday)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Sources for Solar Cells &
Message-ID: <7c2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 18:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (205) 661-8945
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi gang!

	Just checked into this group for the first time and have alot of
	questions but, I'll stick with an easy one first:
	
	Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment? i.e. Cells,
	Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...
	
	I lived in Germany for several years and it's easy to find that info
	there.  I'm going to the library to read up on basics.  Now am looking
	for sources for the appropriate materials/parts.
	
Thanks & btw, reply here or to - rick.munday@dibbs.com - via Internet.

Rick



~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 <NR>
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:11 EDT 1994
Article: 924 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <7c7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:18:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (01 Aug 94) Michael Welch wrote to Cloyce Osborn...

 MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself,
 MW> although they are not yet installed.

 MW> It is my understanding that they have a slightly higher
 MW> self-discharge rate than nicads, but work pretty much the
 MW> same. 

Do these have the same cold weather characteristics as nicads?

I dream of the time when I can buy a battery that won't be affected
by the cold. I had hoped to get some of the refurbished nicads that
were being talked about a few years ago, but since then I've heard
of a few people who had bad experiences with them.

For now my lead acid bank is still performing pretty well, though I
lose efficiency in the winter. But I would like to learn about
what's out there now so I know what my options are when it's time to
upgrade.

Ian



... A distraction is only a distraction if you pay attention to it.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:12 EDT 1994
Article: 925 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <7c8_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:22:27 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: ERIC GRAY
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) ERIC GRAY wrote to DAVE PAXTON...

 EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

 EG> Also you can then buy fuel w/o the highway tax added on.

 DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage if sealed properly. Gas
 DP> goes stale in a few months time.

I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
that they are more "fuel efficient".

I'm still partial to propane. Less handling, cleaner for the air,
and for the engine.

Ian



... Tagline dropped due to budget cuts.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:13 EDT 1994
Article: 926 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar/nuke
Message-ID: <7c9_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:34:33 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bob Paddock
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (02 Aug 94) Bob Paddock wrote to Don Kulha...

 DK> We operate under the concept that the only nuke we'll ever
 DK> need is conveniently 93 million miles away.

 BP> Doesn't that leave out water power, wind, tides, etc?

As I'm sure others will point out, water and wind power *are*
essentially from the sun originally, and tides are from the moon.

 BP> And what about if some thing new comes along, say a working
 BP> kitchen table top Cold Fusion unit?

If "working" means it's actually safe and doesn't leave us with more
problems than it solves, then I think we should be open to the
possibility. But I personally will have a bias against it if I can't
tinker with it with my grandchildren watching. 




Ian



... ". . . . . . . ... . . . . . . .!"  -Marcel Marceu


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:15 EDT 1994
Article: 927 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: HP #42
Message-ID: <7ca_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 01:26:21 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kuhla
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,

Two items from the current HP piqued my interest. One was Richard's
re-write of the article on building a DC engine generator.

What *I* need to know is if anyone is building and selling the field
controller that he talks about. I'm not an intrepid electronic
builder, but I do need such a controller for my gen. It would need
to be useable on 24 volts and up to 150 amps. 

Does Richard have an e-mail address so I could throw these questions
at him directly? 

The other thing that caught me eye was in the article about the
"Suncoaster". The author mentions taking his students on a tour of
the Siemens plant in Vancouver, WA. Have you or anyone else here
toured this plant, or other PV manufacturing facilities? Sounds like
a good field trip for my kids and me.




Ian



... `ll gjjk Thiogd (`ok adB{) cjfn Tj dhn Th`T w`iTd.


From lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca Wed Aug 17 22:43:16 EDT 1994
Article: 929 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!halifax-24-4.nstn.ns.ca!lmacneil
From: lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Lorne MacNeil   )
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Geothermal
Date: 12 Aug 1994 09:53:24 -0300
Organization: Nova Scotia Technology Network
Lines: 33
Sender: news@nstn.ns.ca
Message-ID: <lmacneil.2.776695987@fox.nstn.ns.ca>
References: <2cf_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <326hna$moo@elaine.teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: owl.nstn.ns.ca
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <326hna$moo@elaine.teleport.com> bwartman@teleport.com (Brad Wartman) writes:
fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn) writes:>
>
>> JB> I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
>> JB> the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
>> JB> deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
>> JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
>> JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
>> JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
>> JB> done in a practical way?
>
>>Geothermal power?  Sure, it's being used in lots of remote locations.  The
>>trouble with geothermal is that you've got to drill into a very hot formation
>>(like an underground volcano) for it to be practical so it's very location
>>dependent.  In most locations, the bottom hole temperature at 3000' would only
>>be on the order of 60-70 degrees F. - not hot enough to do the job.
>
>>I have drilled oil wells here in Oklahoma where you couldn't handle the bits
>>when they were pulled from the hole because they were too hot.
>
>Another serious problem with geothermal is that water, being the great
>solvent that it is, will dissolve large quantities of minerals when very hot
>and under high pressure. When the water is brought to the surface, the drop
>in pressure and temperature cause minerals to come out of solution, being
>both corrosive and creating large amounts of solids (scale) in pipes.
>-- 
There is a project in place in Springhill, N.S., Canada you may be 
interested in. What they have done is to drill into old mine workings 
beneath the town. The workings are flooded and the water is warmed by 
geothermal activity. As mentioned above, the water is not hot enough to use 
to generate electricity with but they are able to extract heat with a heat 
pump and use it for process and space heating. The water is then returned to 
another part of the mine to be reheated.


From 5889ww@svpal.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:18 EDT 1994
Article: 930 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: 5889ww@svpal.org (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: help w/batt. memory, please
Date: 12 Aug 1994 21:54:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.88.9408121415.A13220-0100000@svpal.svpal.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


Place weak batteries in a flashlight and leave it on for a half hour.  
Then charge them one hour longer than you have before.


From rabii@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:19 EDT 1994
Article: 931 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: California Regulatory Activities
Message-ID: <rabiiCuFr39.EnI@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 18:52:20 GMT
Lines: 32
Status: O
X-Status: 


A few weeks back I posted a note stating where information regarding
California's ZEV, ULEV, and LEV requirements can be obtained.  That post
has resulted in many request for information sources about all
environmental regulatory activity, not just air pollution.  Therefore, I
am making a public offer which I hope some of you might find useful.

The California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) publishes a monthly
report which summarizes the activity of all environmental regulatory
bodies in the state (including those of some local districts).  If you want
to be put on the mailing list for this publication, you have three choices:

  1.  E-Mail me your name and mailing address, and I will put you on the list.
  2.  Fax your request for addition to the list to (916) 445-5563
  3.  Write to:

                Cal/EPA
                555 Capitol Mall, Suite 235
                Sacramento, CA  95814


Take your pick!  Feel free to circulate this message to anyone who you think
might be interested.

Thanks -


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:20 EDT 1994
Article: 933 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <4c5_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 85
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Gale Barrows to Tony Cygan <=-

 TC> > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
 TC> > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
 TC> > ICE.
 
 TC> LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?
 
 TC>Yea me too !
 
 TC>People are driving more...(longer commutes, travel, whatever)
 TC>More people are driving...(increasing population)
 
 TC>So even with the "so called" lower emmisions gasoline and
 TC>better pollution controls on gas cars there will have to be
 TC>an increase in total output of pollution by the gas cars on
 TC>the same scale as the population increases their driving.

 GB> I think a major source of polution may well be the transmission of the
 GB> extra electricity 
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     What extra electricity ?  As long as the vehicles are 
     charged during the night during the utilities low demand
     times then we will have no problems with needing extra
     power plants.  In fact the power companies would very
     much like this to happen, because it will allow them to 
     better utilize their facilities.

     I saw a number once that said that So.California Edison
     could handle (I think it was) 600,000 electric vehicles
     with no additional power generation capicity being needed.
     The caveat was that they needed to be charged during the
     night. 
     
     I do not know how opportunity charging would effect this 
     equation.  My guess would be that if 600,000 EV's were 
     on the road in So.California and did opportunity charging 
     on a regular basis that 1 new power plant would be required.  
     BUT, can you imagine how long it will take to get 600,000 
     EV's on the road in the USA let alone So. California ???

 GB>                   and the manufacture, vaporisation and disposal o
 GB> car components such as batteries. A local battery distributor (for a
 GB> major manufacturer that is not intrastate 8-} ) says that he only gets
 GB> one battery back for recycling for every 10-15 that he sells. The rest
 GB> are going in dumps. 

     This sounds like a PR problem to me.  My guess is that 
     the company is not encouraging the return of old batteries
     so they are not getting them.  There are still many places
     that do not take in old batteries when you buy a new one
     and this needs to change.  I remember when I was living in
     Chicago that people would steal batteries out of cars to
     sell as scrap.  Recyclers gave $5.00 per battery...
 
 GB>                     The battery emissions and disposal alone probably
 GB> create as much polution nationwide as internal combustion cars in good
 GB> condition do nationwide. 

     Batteries don't have any emissions other than Hydrogen gas 
     and returning old batteries in for recycling would of course
     need to be part of the package when you buy new ones.
 
 GB>                          Then you have the tremendously larger amounts
 GB> of electrity that hs to be carried on whole new networks.
 GB> Manufacturing, transporting and installing that wire is going to create
 GB> considerable pollution. It wouldn't surprise mwe that total effects
 GB> might be higher for electric cars although transmission line
 GB> construction would be a one time thing.

     Most of this was covered above.  I will agree that current
     production cars are getting much better at reducing the
     amount of pollution they are spewing into the air, but with
     time these vehicles will fall into disrepair and the owners
     will not get them fixed.  Also with the increase in the
     population and more people driving it doesn't matter how
     good the emmisions are, if they put out any emmisions at
     all we will surpass up our current output of pollution and
     still be in trouble.


... Sac EV Assoc. meets 2nd Sat each month at 0930; 6201 S St. Sac, Ca.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:20 EDT 1994
Article: 934 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge f
Message-ID: <4c6_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 19:55:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 56
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Davehatunen to All <=-

 Da> In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
 Da> Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
 >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
 >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
 >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
 >
 >A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
 >produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
 >is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
 >In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
 >a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
 >would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
 >were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
 >standard D.C. charger. 
 >
 >The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
 >conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
 >and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
 >the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
 >
 >Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
 >the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
 >do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
 >Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
 >plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
 >Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
 >from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
 >deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

 Da> Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

 Da> Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
 Da> take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
 Da> would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
 Da> of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
 Da> The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
 Da> could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
 Da> must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
 Da> a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
 Da> gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

This equipment would not likely end up as a home recharge
unit, but rather would be something for a "Quick Charge"
facility.  Sort of like your local gas station.  

If you were taking an extended trip to the next town and 
were getting low on charge, you'd pull in and get a charge, 
then be on your way again or perhaps get ready for the 
return home.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:21 EDT 1994
Article: 935 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Ideas For Work At Home
Message-ID: <4c7_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 20:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Julie Seberry
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Julie Seberry to All <=-

 JS> Hi. I need to earn at least just a small amount of money at 
 JS> home. Has anyone got any new ideas, besides babysitting, 
 JS> which I now do. I like it, but I would like to do something 
 JS> with more flexible hours, perhaps at night after all my 
 JS> kids are asleep. ANY ideas would be welcome. Thanks. Julie 
 JS> Seberry.

Julie, 

You might stop by your local bookstore and pick up a
copy of a magazine called Home Office Computing.

The mag lists many stories by real life folks on
what they do from home offices. 

Whlie this subject is not directly related to Renwable
Energy or Home Power, it could be that Julie is like
many other people out there who would like to live off 
the grid, but need to find a way to pay for it.

Tony



... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:22 EDT 1994
Article: 938 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <4d0_9408121521@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 11:35:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) Gale Barrows wrote to Don Kulha...

 GB> I too would be interested in propane conversion kits for
 GB> small engines (larger ones also) but do not know sources. 

I don't either, but I don't think it would be too hard to find out.
Mine came through the local Honda dealer who installed it. If I
were looking, I'd try calling my local propane distributor (Amerigas
or otherwise) and asking for sources. 

Impco is a very common brand of converter, in case that helps.

 GB> One thing that I find hard to understand is a natural gas
 GB> fired generator...
 GB> If there is a disaster of the type where electricity is lost,
 GB> would not NG also be cut off ???

Sounds sensible to me, as that's the only way I've heard of NG being
supplied.



Ian



... Why doesn't the fattest man in the world become a hockey goalie?


From 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:23 EDT 1994
Article: 940 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-275-136-0!3rd.I
From: 3rd.I@f136.n275.z1.fidonet.org (3rd I)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: TRAVEL TIP
Message-ID: <4e7_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 01:21:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Over 80 doors available for you!! (804)545-2097
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Chris Clark
Status: O
X-Status: 

@ORIGIN :HOME OF BRE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE 253 (VA HUB) (1:275/154)   N
Well, travel is pretty domestic <G> Thought that this may of interest-
Thanks for not flaming me, but I guess it can be ignred!
/s


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:24 EDT 1994
Article: 941 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <4ed_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 20:04:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: IAN WOOFENDEN
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW> On (04 Aug 94) ERIC GRAY wrote to DAVE PAXTON...

IW>  EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

IW>  EG> Also you can then buy fuel w/o the highway tax added on.

IW>  DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage if sealed properly. Gas
  >  DP> goes stale in a few months time.

IW> I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
  > pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

I don't THINK that's right. It does put out a different type of
pollution, but not sure if it's any more harmfull than traditionaly
gasonline engines.

IW> I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
  > that they are more "fuel efficient".

IW> I'm still partial to propane. Less handling, cleaner for the air,
  > and for the engine.

No arguemnentsf from me, but diesel generators are here now, and fuel is
ez to get and fairly cheap. I've never compared propane to diesel in
this application.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * "No free men shall every be debarred the use of arms." TJ


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:24 EDT 1994
Article: 942 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!yale!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CuG1Ht.Du8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 22:37:04 GMT
References: <4ed_9408121522@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

ERIC GRAY (ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: IW> I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
:   > pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

: I don't THINK that's right. It does put out a different type of
: pollution, but not sure if it's any more harmfull than traditionaly
: gasonline engines.

Yes and no. I don't believe that there is a diesel auto in the world that 
would meet California's present emission stds without special exemptions.

However, most of the problem with a diesel comes from acceleration.

Hence a generator running at pretty constant speed and tuned up
right may indeed be quite clean. Similarly once a typical modern diesel
car gets up to speed it settles into a fairly clean operation.


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:25 EDT 1994
Article: 943 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 22:47:05 GMT
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se>,
Sven Noren <edssrn@toedts1c49.edt.ericsson.se> wrote:
>I suspect this thread to be an urban legend. If you steal energy from the transmission lines the resulting electricity will be one-phased. Some equipment in the household, expects to be fead with tree-phased current as delivered from the electric company. I doubt that it is worth while to steal electricity considering the bad quality you wil get.
>Also I dont think the resulting current will be 50 Hz, so using it in ordinary equipment would anyhow require transforming it to 50Hz.
>Why not steal power from the wind instead?
>/Sven

That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
household items using three-phase?




-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From dbrewste@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:26 EDT 1994
Article: 944 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 01:56:52 GMT
Lines: 13
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:

: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
: household items using three-phase?


You won't find three phase in very many (any?) American houses.  Have you 
perhaps mixed up 240v power and three phase?
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From schwartz@.sybase.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:27 EDT 1994
Article: 945 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!psinntp!halon!sybase!schwartz
From: schwartz@.sybase.com (John Schwartz)
Subject: power line tapping
Message-ID: <CuE5Cw.Ftn@sybase.com>
Sender: usenet@sybase.com
Organization: Sybase, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 22:05:19 GMT
Lines: 6
Status: O
X-Status: 

The losses associated with the magnetic flux along power lines are minimal
until someone puts a loop in the way.  Then the greater the "short" read that load
the greater the losses.  The way I read it, it is theft.  I believe
there is case law on this RE farmers and power line easments.
js



From jbvb@elf.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:28 EDT 1994
Article: 947 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cold battery banks (was 'NiFe batteries')
Date: 13 Aug 1994 08:08:24 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <32hv1o$dai@usenet.elf.com>
References: <7c7_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden) writes:

>For now my lead acid bank is still performing pretty well, though I
>lose efficiency in the winter. But I would like to learn about
>what's out there now so I know what my options are when it's time to
>upgrade.

My PV system's batteries are in an unheated barn, and it reaches -20F
here frequently.  My first box was pretty well insulated, and we hoped
that internal heating would keep them warm.  This hasn't worked out
quite as I had hoped: In '93 (when I ran off-grid almost all the time,
and charged the batteries from the grid when they got low) they got
down to ~40F.  In '94 I mostly switched the house to grid when the
batteries were low and let the PV run only the barn loads, and the
bank got down to ~32F.

We've just finished re-building the box. Now the batteries are
supported above the floor, insulation is thicker (6" rigid foam in the
lid, for instance), and the box is tighter overall.  However, the
thing I expect to make the biggest difference is a solar hot air
collector/circulator made out of a 34"x76" glass door double glazing
unit and its own PV panel to drive a 3" muffin fan.  Today when I
tested it hot air was coming into the box at ~40F above ambient, and
the collector wasn't even all illuminated (I mounted it vertically,
under the eaves, with the intent that it work best when the sun is low).

I'm planning to submit an article on this to Home Power, but only after
I see how it performs this winter.  Maybe May '95?  One thing I know
for sure is that even with the re-build, I've spent nowhere near what
a new NiCd bank this size would have cost...

jbvb

--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From jbvb@elf.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:29 EDT 1994
Article: 949 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Date: 13 Aug 1994 07:47:34 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32htqm$cl3@usenet.elf.com>
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:

>.... It's hard to think of anything in an American house
>that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
>electric furnaces, but that's about it...

240VAC appliances with 4-wire (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) curcuits are
not 3-phase.  Real 3-phase tends to be 208V and has 3 hot wires.  It
is generally the province of industrial & farm eqipment (3HP motors &
up), and doesn't even reach my town's border (which limits the size of
wind generator I can install, but that's another story).

jbvb
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From igt@wimsey.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:30 EDT 1994
Article: 950 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!mdisea!mmddvan!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme23.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Average $$$ for a home PV system?
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 16:08:14 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <igt.62.2E4A4CEE@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme23.pomo.wis.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello AER community!

I'm a consulting mechanical engineer, specialising in building energy 
conservation and environmental impacts.  

I'd like to know just how much a "average" home PV system costs, from people 
who have installed and used one.  

One of the major arguments of resistant builders and designers is "It's not 
economic!".  I'd like to demonstrate differently, with hard facts and real 
examples.  I suspect that many others on this list would also appreciate your 
sharing your experience, so chime in!

I'd be happy to collate a summary for reposting to AER; I'd appreciate having 
postings to the newsgroup on this thread also emailed to me directly; it would 
help since I only check the group every couple of days, and I'd hate to miss 
some. 

Please include some technical details, such as where your are, average 
insolation, total installed PV peak wattage, storage capacity and battery 
type, system voltage, any electrical conservation measures used in the home, 
and, if it's available, annual or monthly electrical energy use.  Did you 
install it yourself, or was it done professionally?  Estimates of labour costs 
in your locale?   Any other special information, such as if you are 
grid-connected and sell power to the utility, would also 
be welcome.

Thanks in advance, and keep up the excellent work.


Sayonara, y'all!

Ian G. Theaker



From averyj@eskimo.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:31 EDT 1994
Article: 951 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!averyj
From: averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery)
Subject: Re: SOLAR AND SNOW
Message-ID: <CuGnzE.JDv@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Pine.3.89.9408020736.A31195-0100000@moose.uvm.edu> <32cmvj$j79@search01.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 06:42:49 GMT
Lines: 4
Status: O
X-Status: 


Do you know of any specific cases where PV modules got crushed by snow ? 
I would really like to contact folks who have lost panels this way to 
find out specific data about it.


From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:32 EDT 1994
Article: 952 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Date: 13 Aug 1994 19:25:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 45
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408131109.A24035-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <CuDy0A.E33@csn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Eric Toler wrote:

> Hooking up pvs to a high efficiency heat pump is not a bad idea.  However,
> a better idea, touched on by the native mediterrainian architecture
> example, is to lower the cooling load as much as possible up front.......
> 
> THINK SYSTEMS, NOT COMPONENTS!!
> 
> Eric Toler
> Rocky Mountain Institute
> 

    Excellent point Eric and I thank you for pointing it out. It's taken 
me a while to figure this out and in looking back I can see where I've 
erred some in this respect in the past. It's all to easy to get 
tunnelvision and concentrate on just one part of a complex system to the 
detriment of overall system performance.....

     I went to the SF International airport with a friend recently who 
was preparing to bid on a new CAD (-Dispatch) system for the security 
communications system there. In one of the dispatchers rooms they had 
just done a lighting "upgrade"....and replaced their flourescent lighting 
with 28, 75w incandescent lights. The alledged reason for this was the 
flicker associated with their old lights. In addition to the CAD system 
they were planning on upgrading their airconditioning system since the 
old one wasn't able to cool the room sufficently anymore. I pointed out 
that they could likely replace the IC bulbs with compact flourescents and 
avoid the cost of the airconditioning upgrade as well as saving over 
$1000 per year on electricity plus the savings on maintanence. They never 
considered the fact that their A/C would be affected by the lighting when 
they "upgraded" the lights. Additionally their UPS system to keep the 
dispatch center running also sourced the lighting. I also silently 
wondered how long it would take to "cook" the dispatchers out of the room 
when the A/C (which didn't have backup power) went down (they have some 
new dual pane sealed windows....).

     DCK

P.S. - Although outside of the relm of the project I went their to 
discuss I'm writing the dispatch center supervisor a note outlining these 
considerations and suggestions.




From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:33 EDT 1994
Article: 953 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SOLAR-1 CDROM
Date: 13 Aug 1994 19:52:36 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 20
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408131258.A25719-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


We're publishing a CDROM you might want to know about....

*SOLAR-1* Renewable Energy. ISO 9660 format, 325m/3400+ files
Content: Text/graphics Home Power Magazine #1-37, Various texts,
newsletters, graphics and programs on renewables; Wind, Hydro,
PV's, Biofuels, hydrogen, batteries, controls, thermal, glazings,
controls, solar cookers and more (45mb).

Also: A general collection of Mac and PC software (shareware, PD and
demos), GIF's and texts are included. Mac Programs require macbinary
conversion before use.

Available Now, $29US postpaid. International Air delivery $3, CA
add 7.5% sales tax.  Sonoma Online, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407
Visa/MC orders please call Home Power Magazine @ (916)475-0830

For info: dkulha@crl.com, send SASE, call (707)545-7533 or FAX (707)
526-9473. If we're out please leave us your fax number. Thanks...DCK



From Datnoid@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:34 EDT 1994
Article: 955 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Datnoid@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 13 Aug 1994 23:45:01 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 57
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408131927.tn1063293@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Several weeks ago I posted a note of my recent successfull transformation of
a "junked" Hotpoint refrigerator/freezer into a highly efficient solar
powered refrigerator.  What follows is a brief summary:

> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah
nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Mr. Lewis corrects with:
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

Mr. Kulhua adds:
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> Mr. Lewis replies:
You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.


Which brings us back to the original post.
In reply to Mr. Lewis I would rather spread the word of successful uses of AE
for personal use rather than debate whether or not the proper unit of energy
was used.  Mr. Lewis only obscurs the fact that the design and retrofitting
of a "junked" refrigerator with a highly efficient compressor/evaporator
coupled with added insulation worked!

I've kept a track of the energy use for the last two weeks and have found it
to consistently use less that .55kwh per day in energy consumption.  Or, an
average of 44Ah @12vdc in a 24 hour period.

Either way the story is the same. Anyone who uses alternative energy for home
use would understand in an instant what I originally posted. 
Please don't waste my precious online time with picking nits.

  



From jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov Wed Aug 17 22:43:35 EDT 1994
Article: 957 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!csn!nrel!nrel!not-for-mail
From: jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov (Jeff Shapiro)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Sources for Solar Cells &
Date: 12 Aug 1994 08:12:09 -0600
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <32fvvp$n89@nrel.nrel.gov>
References: <7c2_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nrel.nrel.gov
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Munday (Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

: Hi gang!

: 	Just checked into this group for the first time and have alot of
: 	questions but, I'll stick with an easy one first:
: 	
: 	Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment? i.e. Cells,
: 	Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...
: 	
: 	I lived in Germany for several years and it's easy to find that info
: 	there.  I'm going to the library to read up on basics.  Now am looking
: 	for sources for the appropriate materials/parts.
: 	
: Thanks & btw, reply here or to - rick.munday@dibbs.com - via Internet.

: Rick


There are several suppliers listed on the URl:
http://www.nrel.gov/research/division/pv/sunrayce/info/products/solarcells.html

These are the list of acceptable solar cells suppliers for Sunrayce 95.
If these people don't have what you're looking for, I'm sure they can
point you in the right direction.

Jeff Shapiro



From carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov Wed Aug 17 22:43:36 EDT 1994
Article: 958 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!boulder!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!csn!nrel!syssrv3!carries
From: carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov (Carrie Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Biofuels
Date: 13 Aug 94 04:18:28 GMT
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <carries.776751508@syssrv3>
References: <a30_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: syssrv3r.nrel.gov
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks) writes:

>        There are definitely problems with castor bean oil.  It spoils
>        and curds and plugs up oil systems.  Castor is a great racing
>        lube but for everyday use it doesn't cut it.  We used to burn
>        castor in 2 stroke motorcycles and the premix would only be good
>        for the day.  In 4 stroke engines the oil is drained after the
>        race usually while the engine is still warm.

On the other hand, a simple conversion of vegetable oil to methyl
esters solves this gumming problem. Europe is already using
"biodiesel" ( mostly from rapeseed oil) at a commercial scale. There
are efforts underway in this country to produce enough to sell.

Carrie Schneider

-- 
Carrie Schneider, Ph.D.
National Renewable Energy Lab
1617 Cole Boulevard
Golden, CO 80401 303-384-6119


From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:43:37 EDT 1994
Article: 959 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <hatunenCuIJtI.Jzx@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com> <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 07:08:06 GMT
Lines: 26
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>,
Dick Brewster <dbrewste@netcom.com> wrote:
>DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
>: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
>: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
>: household items using three-phase?
>
>You won't find three phase in very many (any?) American houses.  Have you 
>perhaps mixed up 240v power and three phase?

What are you getting at here? Are you challenging my statement about
some electric ranges (most are actually single phase 220v -- that's why
I said "some") or about electric furnaces? Electric furnaces aren't too
common because of the cost compared to natural or bottled gas, except
in the Pacific Northwest; when I lived there electricity cost us $.015
per killowatt hour -- we thought our first electric bill was a mistake.
And I beleive the electric furnaces were three-phase.


-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:38 EDT 1994
Article: 960 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Michael.Welch
From: Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <412_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 18:05:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gordon Campbell
Status: O
X-Status: 

GC> MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself, although
  > MW> they are not yet installed.

GC>Where would one obtain these beauties?

My mistake, it's 1000 amp hour at 24v.  These were refurbised and
donated to us by a firm that is no longer in business.

But, put the word out as far and wide as you can that you are looking
for batteries.  We put an ad in the local free classifieds weekly
newspaper looking for "large wet cell storage batteries".  While we got
a lot of calls from people that want us to take their junk car batteries
off their hands, we've gotten a lot of calls about good deep cycle
batteries, as well.  I ended up with a free set of 100 amp hour nicads,
approximately 50 good ones.

The point is to put the word out in whatever way you can.

New nife batteries can be had through Alternative Energy Engineering in
Garberville, CA.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Home Power Renewable Energy BBS (707)822-8640


From Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:39 EDT 1994
Article: 961 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Michael.Welch
From: Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <413_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 17:23:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

CO>Thanks, Michael.  You mentioned that NiFe is similar to nicad.  Do they
  >suffer from the same "memory" idiosyncrasy?

Wet cell nicads and nifes don't have a significant memory problem like
the dry cells do, although they do perform better if they are exercized.

CO>Guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy that CD-ROM that
  >Don was talking about.  Now if I could only find the
  >address! (Whadda you bet I receive the address post-haste?

I've had a chance to look at Don's CD, and can highly recommend it.  As
a matter of fact, I'm the guy that put together the Home Power articles
for it.  Snap it up quick, he didn't exactly press thousands of them.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Home Power Renewable Energy BBS (707)822-8640


From Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:40 EDT 1994
Article: 962 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Michael.Welch
From: Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <414_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 17:50:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Mshadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hey dude,

MS>"I am looking at the design for a 3.6 kilowatt PV system for
  >a rest stop in the North Cascade Mountains in Washington State.
  >One concern is the snow load on the 2x4 foot Solarex panels .
  >There may be many feet of snow in the winter here. Does anyone
  >have some experience with this . Do the panels hold up OK ?
  >Do they need extra support ?
  >I was imagining that with 20 or more feet of snow it would form
  >sort of an arch over the panels supporting itself ?"

One thing to consider, the panels should be wwwwaaaaayyyyy tilted in
order to get the winter sun.  This means snow should slide off of them
easily, making the only problem giving them enough clearance below to
let the snow slide off.

___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Home Power Renewable Energy BBS (707)822-8640


From Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:41 EDT 1994
Article: 963 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Michael.Welch
From: Michael.Welch@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Welch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Best charge controller?
Message-ID: <415_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 18:01:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Greg Balfanz
Status: O
X-Status: 

GB>What is the best charge controller for the MONEY these days.

GB>I'm considering WIND, and would like to get an idea of the cost for system.

Using wind has special considerations that most charge controllers don't
provide.  Usually, "charge controllers" refers to what are being used in
solar systems, where it doesn't matter if you use all the output.

In wind and hydro systems, you need to use all the power that is being
put out all the time, or the unit will overspin itself into oblivion.
Therefore, the controller must detect when the batteries are full, then
switch most of the available source over to a different load.  Many
times these loads are hot water heater elements (that way you are still
getting practical use out of the power) or nothing more than large
resistors that change the power to heat and dissipate it into the
surrounding air.

The latest technology includes a brand new unit from Ananda Power
Technologies called a Tapering Diversion Regulator (basic unit price
$295 list, options and models go up from there). Check with your local
renewable energy dealer for info on this new regulator or the industry's
standby for several years, the Enermaxer.
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X Home Power Renewable Energy BBS (707)822-8640


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:42 EDT 1994
Article: 964 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <430_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 14:04:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

GB>DP>They do exist... but your probably better off buying a gas model and
GB>DP>converting to propane <cheaper>

GB>What is usualy used for the conversion and where can the parts be had?

I have seen quite a few engines <many on fork lifts used inside
buildings> that have a special propane carb. This is a favorite in the
generator applications too when a large generator is a standby for an
entire building. I tend to like the idea of a set up I have seen on
several smaller generators though. It uses the standard carb. I have
seen them set up in 2 different ways. One is to remove the gas line and
hook up a propane line fed by a demand type regulator <like the scuba
regs>. This works well but confines the machine to being a "dedicated"
propane engine. The other is a demand regulator feeding a line that
comes into the bottom of the carb where there is a drain hole for
working on the caburator. All of the industrial air cooled engines that
I have worked on have a carb with a plug like this in it. There is also
a shut off val;ve in the line. This way, if propane is suddenly not
available you can shut the valve and fill the engine up with gasoline
and fire it up. This "dual fuel" for emergency situation could be handy.

If the demand regulator has a "forced" button <many do> to give a
pressurized shot of gas thru the line you don't even have to choke the
engine to start. If it does not then you usually have to choke them
prettty hard to start.

GB>DP>I do not consider myself an expert either. I have about 20 years
GB>DP>experience as an engine dealer for a major indust. eng. manufacturer and
GB>DP>have seen my fair share of gas conversions but an expert, nahhh.

GB>What brand engine? Might need info on that make. Right now I am running

Wisconsin & Wisconsin Robins.

GB>a Hercules 141.5 cu.in. engine in my present favorite vehicle. Have a
GB>Hercules Hupp 2cyl air cooled engine in another vehicle as well. I
GB>always figured something like the military Continental Multi-fuel engine
GB>with a propane adapter would be a good choice for running a generator or
GB>other equipment. The thing would burn about any flammable liquid or run
GB>on propane. just use whatever fuel you have handy or is cheap.

The continentals were nice and the Hercs I have heard a lot of good
about never worked on. Onan makes a lot of generators and probably has a
line of propane power set ups. They are decent. The gas companies
probably could tell you about different typs of prop, natural, and other
carbs. Quite a few gas companies <gas not gasoline> sell and install
carbs at reasonable prices<hopeing to sell you the gas to run it>.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:42 EDT 1994
Article: 965 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge F
Message-ID: <446_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 19:55:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 56
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Davehatunen to All <=-

 Da> In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
 Da> Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
 >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
 >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
 >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
 >
 >A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
 >produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
 >is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
 >In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
 >a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
 >would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
 >were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
 >standard D.C. charger. 
 >
 >The method is said to *increase* battery life over more 
 >conventional methods by neutralizing polarization resistance
 >and by breaking down the crystalline structure that forms on 
 >the plates of batteries through non-pulse charging.   
 >
 >Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
 >the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 
 >do the main work.  Charging pulses last from 0.1 to 2 seconds.
 >Second, a short "depolarization" pulse pulls ions away from the 
 >plates, breaking large crystals into finer chunks.  
 >Thirdly, the charger enters "inactive rest" mode.  Ions pulled 
 >from the plates are suspended in the electrolyte, ready to be 
 >deposited on the plates during the next charging pulse.

 Da> Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 

 Da> Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
 Da> take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
 Da> would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
 Da> of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
 Da> The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
 Da> could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
 Da> must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
 Da> a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
 Da> gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.

This equipment would not likely end up as a home recharge
unit, but rather would be something for a "Quick Charge"
facility.  Sort of like your local gas station.  

If you were taking an extended trip to the next town and 
were getting low on charge, you'd pull in and get a charge, 
then be on your way again or perhaps get ready for the 
return home.


... Support California's ZEV regulations.  Call or write CARB !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:44 EDT 1994
Article: 966 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Ideas For Work At Home
Message-ID: <447_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 20:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Julie Seberry
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Julie Seberry to All <=-

 JS> Hi. I need to earn at least just a small amount of money at 
 JS> home. Has anyone got any new ideas, besides babysitting, 
 JS> which I now do. I like it, but I would like to do something 
 JS> with more flexible hours, perhaps at night after all my 
 JS> kids are asleep. ANY ideas would be welcome. Thanks. Julie 
 JS> Seberry.

Julie, 

You might stop by your local bookstore and pick up a
copy of a magazine called Home Office Computing.

The mag lists many stories by real life folks on
what they do from home offices. 

Whlie this subject is not directly related to Renwable
Energy or Home Power, it could be that Julie is like
many other people out there who would like to live off 
the grid, but need to find a way to pay for it.

Tony



... Sacramento Electric Vehicle Association...We're CHARGED up...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:45 EDT 1994
Article: 967 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Alternative
Message-ID: <448_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 05:33:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 35
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Mshadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 20:09:38
 santarosa,ca,usa:
hey mSfx,       <--hope you don't mind the butch ;'>
 ++
Ms>  > (2) what is "alternative"?

Ms>     What do you want it to be? By definition "alternative" means
Ms> something that is not mainstream. In the case of power production, most
Ms> AE
Ms> falls into this catagory (hence the name) as most AE techniques are not
Ms> mainstream (yet).
 ++

be carefull with definition. i believe the "real", accepted def of 
alternative is simply  -a choice, choices-  (look it up)
 now this  *is language and meanings change with usage (just look at 
giddy or bitch, or left and right, or 2,389,974 other words; English 
is especially a flailer), but on the whole, words still keep there 
original meaning and often end up with multiple meanings.

i think alternative has definately kept it's original meaning
(again- one choice, out of a group of options)
 in fact "your" alternate;'> meaning seems to be more of a "buzz word" 
than an actual definition.

so..what is alternative energy??

i don't know, but the name of this discussion group, at least on the 
Fido side: "Alternative Energy and Home Power"  indicates to me that 
this is a place to discuss OPTIONS (all of them)
peace
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Bill.Liu@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:47 EDT 1994
Article: 968 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Bill.Liu
From: Bill.Liu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Bill Liu)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction
Message-ID: <449_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 08:04:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Doug Carter
Status: O
X-Status: 

This message was from OLOV OSTLUND to ALL,
and was forwarded to you by BILL LIU.

We had been talking about frying with radar earlier and I thought you
might find this interesting.

                    -------------------------
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Date: 2 Aug 94 15:05:21 GMT

In article 20109@ericsson.se, ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se
(Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
> I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
> energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
> the grid".
> There are some people in Sweden that has been found
> "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
> been crossing their grounds.
I have been playing with fluorecent light under a big power line for a lot of
years ago. We had a small cabin that was "powered" by
induction from the HV-line.
We used an old fence wire to collect the power.
> The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
> between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
> The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
> has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
> By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
> have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
> Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
> can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
> anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
> understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
> magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
> electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for
> electric hazards etc.
>
> Borje Persson
It's still a crime in Sweden, and I think they regulary "ping" the
lines for checking the impedance of the net. With the technologi of today it's
easy to detect if something has been changed and also the
position of the change.
So I think you must have a better lawyer than the power company..............
/oo
The opinion above is my own etc.

___


From Elijah.Chancey@f19.n3640.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:49 EDT 1994
Article: 969 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3640-19-0!Elijah.Chancey
From: Elijah.Chancey@f19.n3640.z1.fidonet.org (Elijah Chancey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Not an opposing view
Message-ID: <44a_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 18:08:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Southern Gentleman
Lines: 90
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) 
 On 07-28-94 MShadowfax wrote to All... 
 
 M > From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax) 
 M > Date: 28 Jul 94 20:01:00 GMT 
 M >  
 M > In article <rabiiCtMF3K.K5o@netcom.com>, rabii@netcom.com (Richard 
 M > Boyd) 
 M > writes: 
 M >  
 M > "I don't really want to pick nits, but on this one I must.  Nuclear IS 
 M > an alternative energy source.  It has always been, whether or not it 
 M > continues to be so remains to be seen (it may become mainstream, it 
 M > may 
 M > not)." 
 M >  
 M >      I acknowledge a difference of definition here. To me you're still 
 M > doing the same old job of turning a turbine with a somethingorother 
 M > fired 
 M > steam boiler, the source of which is producing some form of waste. The 
 M > difference is that this source is imminently more dangerous than most 
 M > others. 
 M >      I would have considered nuclear "alternative" a few decades ago 
 M > when 
 M > the technology was still new - now it's more mainstream and less of an 
 M > "alternate." I will consider solar no longer an alternate when it is 
 M > more 
 M > widely developed and distributed and producing a significant ammount 
 M > of 
 M > our grid-power. Perhaps then we'll be seeking ways to harness 
 M > planetary 
 M > movement or something similar and that will be our new "alternative" 
 M > energy source. Till then . . .  
 M >  
 M >  
 M > "What nuclear is not, at least at this point, is renewable.  
 M > Theoretically, 
 M > nuclear wastes can be re-used.  However, we presently lack the 
 M > technology 
 M > to do this." 
 M >  
 M >      Thank you for that statement. Perhaps when we stop burrying 
 M > dangerous 
 M > nuclear waste and can do something useful with it I'll be more 
 M > inclined to 
 M > accept it.

 M >  
 M >  
 M > "While this may cause you to jump for joy, keep in mind that it wasn't 
 M > too 
 M > long ago that we lack the technology to turn on a light switch or 
 M > perform 
 M > open-heart surgery." 
 M >  
 M >      And they said we couldn't put a man on the moon either. Times are 
 M > changing and views need to change with the times. 
 M >  
 M >  
 M >  
 M > "What I am trying to get across to you is that I think you need to be 
 M > more open-minded to other views.  The best solutions tend to come from 
 M > contributions from several minds, not just one." 
 M >  
 M >      Hence the development of the Newsgroup. AER exists for AE-minded 
 M > people to share their experiences and ideas - not to debate the old 
 M > nuclear-vs.-solar debate (correct me if I'm wrong, Don). That was one 
 M > of 
 M > the main things with Harry C.'s post that got me started on this whole 
 M > thing. I have had more than my share of nuclear thisandthat while I 
 M > was in 
 M > college - if nothing, the experiments I did on plants proved to me 
 M > that I 
 M > really DON'T want a nuclear plant anywhere near me. 
 M >  
 M >      My mind is open - to clean sources. Until they can do something 
 M > about 
 M > the inherent dangers and wasts generated by nuclear facilities I want 
 M > nothing to do with them. 
 M >  
 M > Shadowfax 
 M >  
 M > --- 
 M >  * Origin: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1:3641/1) 
 M >  
 EC>If we put solar panels out in all of the worlds desserts we would  
 EC>have 50 times more power than the warth currently usees now. In only 1 
 EC>day from the installments.   
 
... OFFLINE 1.38 * The best blood at times gets into fools and mosquitoes. 


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:50 EDT 1994
Article: 970 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-147-34-13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <44e_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 03:49:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gordon Campbell
Status: O
X-Status: 


 GC> On (06 Aug 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Gordon Campbell...

  CO> He still asks me from time to time if I'd like to have some more.

 GC> Good deal!  How big are they?  Being a high-amperage
 GC> package, I'm assuming that they're largish.

HI, Gordon.  Yes, you're right.  They are "largish", namely each individual
cell is about 12" high by 4" wide by 1.5-2.5" thick (typing from memory since
I'm not about to put my boots back on and go check! :-)).  They come bundled in
wood and metal carriers (as I recall, about 4 cells to a bundle) but I have no
idea of their amp-hour capacity.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:51 EDT 1994
Article: 971 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-374-1-0!Julie.Seberry
From: Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Julie Seberry)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: IDEAS FOR WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <454_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 17:13:59 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Techtalk BBS, Cocoa, FL 407-635-8833
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

I will be going out tomorrow and buying the Home Office Computing Mag. Thanks
so much and if you have any other ideas, don't hesitate to let me know. Thank
you so much.   Julie Seberry


From Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:52 EDT 1994
Article: 972 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3624-7-0!Terry.Buyers
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Units of measurement
Message-ID: <455_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 05:34:20 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Schrodinger's Catbox (803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a msg on <Aug 04 14:29>, Olov Ostlund writes:

 OO> From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
 OO> Date: 4 Aug 94 14:29:09 GMT

 OO> It seems to me there is correlation between people using their 
 OO> own home made units and american programmers...........
 OO> I had a lot of problems working with some Americans, they 
 OO> could never adapt to international standards (SI units) of 
 OO> writing the units for speed, distance, time, volume, 
 OO> current, voltage and a lot of other things. (One of them was 
 OO> a formal professor ! (the Univ. feedback)). It's very nice 
 OO> and easy using SI units, You don't need a lot of conversion
 OO> factors.
 OO> Is this antipathy against standards something typical for 
 OO> programmers or is it just some american style of living ?

But you must remember that the SI - and indeed the entire idea of the metric
system - was developed to simplify calculation in pre-computer days. About the
time the schools started trying to hammer the metric system through student's
skulls, along comes the pocket calculator. Now, it is a relatively easy matter
to convert from say, furlongs per fortnight to fathoms per watch. So we remain
arrogant in our ignorance and let the calculator do the dirty work. 8-)

  


From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:54 EDT 1994
Article: 973 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SNATCHING INDUCTION FROM POWER L
Message-ID: <456_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 13:04:21 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 


 
 
Speaking of snatching power, when I was a kid there were a number of articles
in Popular Electronics and the like with plans for building radios powered by
the rectified signals of nearby radio stations.  The idea was that you'd tune
in the nearby transmitter and reciver enough power from its signal to power a
receiver tuned to another station.  These radios had enough juice to drive a
loudspeaker.  While most of those who are off-the-grid probably don't live
close enough to a broadcast transmitter to get the power required it's still an
interesting concept.
 
Well anyway to ME it was interesting concept.
 


From Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:43:55 EDT 1994
Article: 974 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-124-1208-0!Bob.Kerstetter
From: Bob.Kerstetter@f1208.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Kerstetter)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <1da_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 07:11:50 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: * MacSavvy * Dallas * Home of the POWERPC echo *
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 01 Aug 94  19:27:05  MShadowfax wrote to  All:
 M> Do the panels hold up OK ? Do they need extra support ?

A guy name Glenn Ffield at Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La
Jolla (San Diego) may be able to help you. Tell him I gave you his name.
 I assume he is still there.

- Bob
 -> Alice4Mac 2.4.2 E Blue Eval:05Jun94 


From Donald.J_.Walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:57 EDT 1994
Article: 975 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Donald.J_.Walli
From: Donald.J_.Walli@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Donald J. Walli)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <1e9_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 01:36:48 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Michigan Technological University
Lines: 57
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dwalli@mtu.edu (Donald J. Walli)
Date: 4 Aug 94 20:36:48 GMT

ERNESTO GRUNDSETH (erg4@acpub.duke.edu) wrote: [in response to me]
[some stuff deleted] 
: 
: : Most people here are insisting that we need powerplants (coal- or
: : gas-fired, or fission) to generate the energy needed to derive H2
: : (assumed from water).
: : What about using solar (PV cell) power to drive the electrolysis
: : modules?
: Because solar panels are 13-15% efficient, but most importantly,
: the sun will only put out about 1 horsepower (756 watts(i think))
: per square meter (or 3 feet x 3 feet) area. To produce
: hydrogen from solar cells is very inefficient,like 15% tops.
: So the total efficiency will be about 2 %. So out of a square
: meter of the suns energy (on a beautiful july day at noon) you
: get 0.02 hp or about 15 watts
: not too good :(

But not too bad, either. And you don't have the waste products that 
other power sources produce. Did you know that the IC/gas engine in
most cars wastes around 85% of its power in waste heat? Most of
us are driving blast furnaces on wheels. 

: I am not against electric cars or renewable energy. It just needs
: to be efficinet or it is worse than coal, oil or fission.

Hunh?  First: what is "efficient"? 30%? 50%? 90%?  If you are only thinking
of the energy in->work out definition, I think you're missing some things.
We need to think about more than just that definition. If most of our re-
sources were infinite, and if we could auto-magically scrub the atmosphere
clean every week or so, and if good crops would grow each and every year on
bare rock, then we could go on thinking about simple definitions of 
efficiency. In our world, it's too complex for that.

: I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
: panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
: the silicon enviromental???? just wondering
: Ernesto Grundseth
: erg4@acpub.duke.edu
: converted a '72 Saab Sonett and '70 Karmann Ghia to electric!!

I would be interested in knowing the answer to Ernesto's last question
as well. However, I would be more interested in seeing a comparison of
the environmental impact of manufacturing PV cells and, say, the impact
of manufacturing IC engines. (of course, this comparison would ignore the
already well-known impact of manufacturing the fuel that goes into petrol-
fired IC engines.)

Don Walli
dwalli@mtu.edu
-- 
    || Donald J. Walli     dwalli@mtu.edu			 ||
    || Systems Administrator, Dept. of Fine Arts		 ||
    || Macintosh LAN administrator, CCLI, Dept. of Humanities    ||
    || Michigan Technological University     			 ||


From Kathy_Humphrey_SEN_CA_GOV@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:58 EDT 1994
Article: 976 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Kathy_Humphrey_SEN_CA_GOV
From: Kathy_Humphrey_SEN_CA_GOV@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <1ea_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 22:33:39 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Kathy.Humphrey@SEN.CA.GOV
Date: 5 Aug 94 17:33:39 GMT

unsubscribe


From BRIAN.LATTA@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:43:59 EDT 1994
Article: 977 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!BRIAN.LATTA
From: BRIAN.LATTA@psybbs.durham.nc.us (BRIAN LATTA)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1eb_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 17:21:03 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Acadia University
Lines: 39
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN LATTA)
Date: 5 Aug 94 12:21:03 GMT

In article <1994Aug2.135129.20109@ericsson.se> ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje
Persson VK/EHS/PS) writes:
>From: ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se (Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS)
>Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:51:29 GMT

>I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
>energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
>the grid". 
>There are some people in Sweden that has been found
>"stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
>been crossing their grounds.
>The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
>between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
>The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
>has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
>By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
>have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
>Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
>can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
>anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
>understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
>magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
>electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
>electric hazards etc.

>Borje Persson 

I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling.  Nothing 
is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from one 
form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power company'
s transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power whether 
there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is used.  You 
are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company uses in its 
transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation.  Only the 
geometry is different.  


From Mark.Litwack@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:00 EDT 1994
Article: 978 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mark.Litwack
From: Mark.Litwack@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mark Litwack)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <1ec_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 23:03:57 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: litwack@dccs.upenn.edu (Mark Litwack)
Date: 5 Aug 94 18:03:57 GMT

In article <c4c_9407311011@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Dean.Kuusela@p86.f214.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Kuusela) writes:
|> Hello all!
|> 
|> I need to pick up a 5000 watt electrical generator for a cabin up in the
|> boonies.  For a new generator, does anyone know how much gasoline is used
per
|> hour at full load?  Also, any recommendations as to brands?

Generac and Honda make some pretty good units.  It appears that the
more efficient units will do about 4200 (or more) watt-hours/gallon
(measured at 50% load) for that power class of generator.  The
efficiency curve is fairly flat above 50%, but drops off quickly for
less than 50% load.  (Moral: don't buy too big a unit if you don't
need it.)

So, a good 5000 watt generator should use about a gallon per hour
at full load.

-mark


From Jim.Coleman@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:01 EDT 1994
Article: 979 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-324-127-0!Jim.Coleman
From: Jim.Coleman@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Coleman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Small generators
Message-ID: <1ed_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 23:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Computer Castle, Newton NH   1-603-382-3471
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

does anyone outthere have any idea where i could fing smalll generators- 
something like a bicycle generator- cheap. I'm playing around and would need
10 or so, so $$$ is a consideration.

If anybody out there has a 10 speed with a generator, could you tell me the 
manufacturer? I'll probably hit a bike shop to find out this information but
if there's a close-out or liquidation source for this type of generator, 
please advise. Much obliged.


From Ken.Bridges@p5.f802.n325.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:02 EDT 1994
Article: 980 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-325-802-5!Ken.Bridges
From: Ken.Bridges@p5.f802.n325.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Bridges)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <1ee_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 11:26:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Solar Point, Solar Powered! East Haven, Vermont
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Skinner
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave Skinner wrote in a message to Don Kuhla:

DS> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used to
DS> be a pretty friendly place with folks describing what they
DS> might want to do or try.  Lately its a lot like sci.energy

   Agreed!!!!!!!
		      Ken


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:03 EDT 1994
Article: 981 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-369-3-0!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest
Message-ID: <1ef_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:57:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Mcminn
Status: O
X-Status: 

BM>Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
BM>discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
BM>beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
BM>seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
BM>understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
BM>everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

Bravo, but now back to the orriginal post <wich I am affraid I missed,
probably out on the Appalacian trail backpacking when it came through> I
am not going to debate the type of cooling systems this time but the
design of the refer. Have any of you ever considered just how much the
average houshold refer has to work every time you open the door to get a
drink? When the door is opened the cold heavier air flows out the bottom
of the upright cabinet <ever notice your feet getting cool while getting
a drink?> and warm room air flowng into the top to replace it. I think
the person that designed refers standing up should be shot. If all
refers were "Chest" type like some freezers opening the door would have
much less impact on the internal temps of the refer and it would work
less. My guess is that it would probably cut the energy consumtion to
about half. That is if you don't "yank" the door open but gently open it
so as to not disturb the "puddle" of cold air inside.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Some dance to remember, some dance to forget!


From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:04 EDT 1994
Article: 982 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Gas eng.
Message-ID: <1f6_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 20:11:07 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Re: QUIET
 
> -> Are there any 'cheap' methods of conversion from gas to nat'l gas?
> Sure!  It doesn't get much cheaper than a gas pipe stuffed down the carb
> throat to near the throttle butterfly. Or you can "spud" a gas carburetor by
> drilling through the side near the venturii to introduce a vapor entry.

There is a buiss. here in town that modifies to gas. My question is wwther
whether there is an national association of gas modifiers?
Popeye the Sailor

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Peter.Caffell@f1010.n772.z3.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:05 EDT 1994
Article: 983 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!3-772-1010-0!Peter.Caffell
From: Peter.Caffell@f1010.n772.z3.fidonet.org (Peter Caffell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, ap
Message-ID: <1f7_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 11 Aug 94 14:19:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ===  D i g i t a l  P i c t u r e s  Akld  N.Z. ===
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Dziepak
Status: O
X-Status: 

|TD>How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC      |
|TD>house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC       |
|TD>house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce     |
|TD>EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?  |
|TD>                                                                        |
|TD>I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiri|
|TD>for my home.                                                            |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

The DC magnetic flux would produce a non-alternating single
polarity, similar to a fixed magnet.  The strength of the
field created would be the same as that for an AC circuit using
the same Wattage.

The major difference with DC is that you will not be subjected
to the 60 Hz pulse produced by the AC current, which according
to the WHO can be detrimental to health if sufficiently strong.

60 Hz AC EMF is rumoured to stimulate brain activity to produce
hyperactive neural phenomenon, leading to pschosis in some
people.  This is effect is yet to be varified scientifically,
but appears reasonable on the surface.

Considering that the 40fps scan rate of a TV screen can semi
comatose the brain into a non-critical state, then it not that
far fetched to think that 50-60 Hz EMF can do the same.  In
fact some of the currently available Sound/light/EMF
biofeedback gadgets that are on the market use this effect to
control the brain, with quite dramatic results.  Using one of
theses gadgets, in conjunction with hemisynch generators, you
can produce a myriad states of consciousness.

The earth's natural resonant frequency is about 7.8 hz, this is
also a freq. at which the brain is in a normal state.  I use an
Earth Field generator in my home to try and counter the effects
of stray EMF from electrical wiring and appliances.  This
gadget produces a high intensity 7.8hz magnetic pulse with a
radius of about 20 yards.  It produces a noticably relaxing
atmosphere in the house.

Best Regards.
Peter.
___
X MegaMail 2.1b #0:ERROR 255** HOBBY HORSE DETECTED-POST TERMINATED


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:07 EDT 1994
Article: 984 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-290-35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS PLEASE
Message-ID: <1f8_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 15:14:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: --The Black Stratocaster. PDX, USA
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 13Aug94 Dick Dillman wrote to Dave Hassler:

  DD> Point taken about nukes not often being found in back yards, Dave -
  DD> thank the goddess.

<snip>

  DD> Anyway, I've gotta go tend the fuel rods out back.

Hope they're growing well.  Try a little peat mulch near the base of the stems!
:^)

Take care, DH


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:08 EDT 1994
Article: 985 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-105-40-357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <1f9_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 22:46:49 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Kevin Burtch
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (02 Aug 94) Kevin Burtch wrote to All...

 KB> I did some research on propane a couple of years ago and found out
 KB> some interesting things...
 KB> 
 KB> 	Propane has an equivalant octane rating of 105 to 130 (depending on
 KB> 
 KB> One drawback to using propane power is the fact that a (relatively)
 KB> large 
 KB> amount of the exhaust contains water vapor. You have to use a
 KB> stainless
 KB> steel exhaust. :)
 KB> 
 KB> P.P.S. Why is this thread in alt.energy.renewable?
 KB>                                           ^ ^ ^
 KB> Propane is dead dinosaurs!

        Do you know how Methane stacks up to Propane for efficiency and
        octane?  Methane is renewable and would better fit the Home
        Power scope.

Tony

... Mit pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:09 EDT 1994
Article: 986 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2601-553-0!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <1fb_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:02:20 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

EH>-> Could you be bribed to break the USENET link?  This used to be a pretty
EH>-> friendly place with folks describing what they might want to do or try.

EH>Afraid I'm gonna have to second the motion Dave.  They come into a perfectly
EH>happy echo and start throwing their weight around, criticizing the regulars.

EH>If the situation doesn't show drastic improvement I'm probably just gonna
dro
EH>this echo as another casualty on the "Information Highway."

EH>(and I used to look forward to it more than any other of the sixty or so I
EH>carry.)

        Same here.


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:10 EDT 1994
Article: 987 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2601-553-0!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching power through
Message-ID: <1fc_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:08:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Mshadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

MS>     It may be illegal in Sweeden, but it's not here in the states. The
MS>FCC has ruled on several cases that since there is no direct connection
MS>between the wires and the collectors that there is no theft. To their way
MS>of thinking any magnetic waves in the air are there for all to collect and
MS>use.

        Look up the Electronic Communication Privacy Act of
1986, US Title 18.  Sections around 2500.  Those magnetic
waves are NOT free to access...


From Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:11 EDT 1994
Article: 988 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Phillip.Hill
From: Phillip.Hill@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Phillip Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <20e_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 5 Aug 94 22:20:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Computer Conversion
 
>    Hi all, I'm new so go easy...please.
>    With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
>    if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
>    plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
>    need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
>    is a 486/33, if that matters.

On your mother board you will find near the back of the system a pair of
inline power plugs normally labeled P8 and P9. The pin assignments are as
follows: Pin 1 is the one farthest to the back edge of the board.

  Pin 1  =  'good power'
  Pin 2  =  Empty
  Pin 3  =  +12 VDC
  Pin 4  =  -12 VDC
  Pin 5  =  GND
  Pin 6  =  GND
  Pin 7  =  GND
  Pin 8  =  GND
  Pin 9  =  -5 VDC
  Pin 10 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 11 =  +5 VDC
  Pin 12 =  +5 VDC

notes:  The 'good power' signal is a signal that come from the power supply to 
the mother board to signal that the power supply is working correctly.  I amn
ot sure what caracteristics this signal has.

+12 V DC acceptable range = +8.5 V to +12.6 V  Current range = 0 to  2 amps
-12 V DC acceptable range = -8.5 V to -12.6 V  Current range = 0 to .25 amps
 +5 V DC acceptable range = +2.4 V to  +5.2 V  Current range = 2.3 to 7.0 amps
 -5 V DC acceptable range = -4.5 V to  -5.4 V  Current range = 0 to .30 amps

Hope this helps.

 <<<* Dark Star VI *>>>  Collinsville,IL   (618)344-9048  v.32bis  VBBS 6.??


From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:12 EDT 1994
Article: 989 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Popeye
Message-ID: <20f_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 16:41:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Fred Nowall
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: 12volts
 
> this may be a dumb ??? but do you use 26.965 mhz i noticed that you used
> popeye just wandering?

No, must be another popeye...This is Popeye the Sailorman Bubblehead.  :}
Popeye

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:12 EDT 1994
Article: 990 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-249-121-3!Gordon.Campbell
From: Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org (Gordon Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nife Batteries
Message-ID: <210_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 00:14:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: An 18% Grey Point - Kingston, ON, Canada
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (06 Aug 94) Cloyce Osborn wrote to Gordon Campbell...

 CO> They have to PAY to dispose of them!  I merely mentioned to him that I'd
 CO> like to have some and he showed up the next day with a pickup load.  He
 CO> still asks me from time to time if I'd like to have some more.

Good deal!  How big are they?  Being a high-amperage package, I'm assuming that
they're largish.

Cheers,
.....G

... Situation Normal.  Please Panic Accordingly.


From Alfrado.Gambino@p4.f0.n0.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:13 EDT 1994
Article: 991 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-0-0-4!Alfrado.Gambino
From: Alfrado.Gambino@p4.f0.n0.z1.fidonet.org (Alfrado Gambino)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <211_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 15:41:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: ~The Sudden Impulse~ Little Ferry,NJ * [201]641-8167 14.4
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all.... Just wanted to say HI...
                         
* SPITFIRE v3.3


From David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:14 EDT 1994
Article: 992 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-229-15-0!David.Lagzdin
From: David.Lagzdin@f15.n229.z1.fidonet.org (David Lagzdin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <212_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:08:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

Lets think about this...computers want +/- 12v and +/-5v
CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp
negative regulator...Hmmm....
Dave


From Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:15 EDT 1994
Article: 993 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-356-12-0!Lewis.Cosper
From: Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org (Lewis Cosper)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nukes, On Topic?
Message-ID: <213_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 10:33:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Mansion  (Charleston, Oregon) USA
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kulha
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,


 > P.S. - So, has anyone seen Elvis lately?.....

Nope. Seems to have dissapeared off the face of the earth. Even sent him net
mail and have seen no response.

Lewis


From Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:15 EDT 1994
Article: 994 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Katey.Lafrance
From: Katey.Lafrance@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Katey Lafrance)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Geothermal
Message-ID: <214_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 22:10:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, just access thru the Greenpeace BBS.  I've heard of some problems with
taking away the steam from underground, namely the so-called "new age" guru,
Elizabeth Claire Prophet, who owns a ton of land up by Yellowstoine and was all
set to tap energy from the underground energy which aslo causes "Ole Faithful"
to erupt in the park.  Had she been allowed, to date I've not heard that she
was, who knows what would have happened.  She's greedy enough to have taken it
all.  She has already fenced in, fenced out and fenced over the ancient
wildlife migratory routes thru there. JUst a thought! Later...KT


From William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:17 EDT 1994
Article: 995 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-284-8-0!William.Goodson
From: William.Goodson@f8.n284.z1.fidonet.org (William Goodson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <215_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:43:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: TriStar Information System! (417) 889-8743 - 4 Lines!
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 


> [I wondered aloud how to convert my desktop machine into a 12VDC beastie]

 DD> Would you consider a lap top?  I guess you already have the
 DD> desk top 486 but it would be SO much easier to use the lap
 DD> top, especially if you got one that expects 12VDC from its
 DD> power unit.  But you've probably thought of that and
 DD> rejected the idea, right?

    Well, yes this would be a decent solution - but I was kinda
 concerned about expansion issues.  Them laptops get kinda nasty
 with all the wires hangin' out the back! :->

    Plus, as you surmised, I own the desktopper - I don't own a
 laptopper!

 Bill


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:18 EDT 1994
Article: 996 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge Fo
Message-ID: <216_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:41:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Davehatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 

...might be a good system for gas(electricity?) stations though...
it'd cut down on inventory requirements for pack exchanges
...might be good to build into vehicles w/lower capacities/requirements, like
motorcycles/mopeds...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:19 EDT 1994
Article: 997 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nife Batteries
Message-ID: <217_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:48:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

...sounds like the beginning of a good part-time business...
-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:20 EDT 1994
Article: 998 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Usenet Link
Message-ID: <218_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:51:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

let's give it a little while first...
I think (HOPE) the bickering'l die down after a while...


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:22 EDT 1994
Article: 999 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Travel Tip
Message-ID: <219_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 17:13:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 1
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: 3Rd I
Status: O
X-Status: 

why is this on home power?...


From Brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1000 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Brop9555_utdallas_edu
From: Brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Brop9555@utdallas.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <21a_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 13:43:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:The University of Texas at Dallas
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> > I assume that you are joking about this.
> > 
> > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
> > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
> > cheap!

>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
> water powered but related to such.....
>     DCK

Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
Wankel has good potential for the future.


From Brian.Mcminn@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1001 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Brian.Mcminn
From: Brian.Mcminn@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Brian Mcminn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Refrigerators - Chest
Message-ID: <21b_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 19:50:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., Austin TX
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: brian@positron.amd.com (Brian McMinn)
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:50:47 GMT

In article <Pine.3.87.9408022144.A20147-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood

Now, now....  I think Greg is right.  I've worked as an IC design
engineer for 10 years (ie. not in the university environment), I work
with energy and power every day and I find most of the non-standard
uses of units in this group confusing.

There's no such thing as a "clear" non-standard use of units.  Either
you use the units correctly or you're going to confuse people.  (Or
worse, be ignored as a granola munching radical.)

Investigation into alternative energy is a legitimate field and
discussions on this group about what works and what doesn't is
beneficial to the advancement of alternative energy sources.  I
seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here with enough
understanding of physics to try to use units correctly, so please,
everybody, at least give some thought to making your units match!

   Brian McMinn   brian.mcminn@amd.com


From Mshadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1002 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mshadowfax
From: Mshadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mshadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching Power Throu
Message-ID: <21c_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 20:55:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:55:03 GMT

In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."

     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
dropped.

Shadowfax


From Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1003 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jeff.Bailey
From: Jeff.Bailey@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeff Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power
Message-ID: <21d_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 21:04:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:U.C. Berkeley Dept. of Materials Science
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey)
Date: 3 Aug 94 16:04:41 GMT

In article <mwilson.775844043@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) wrote:

> In <bailey-3107941232530001@bailey-at-home.hip.berkeley.edu>
bailey@argon.eecs.berkeley.edu (Jeff Bailey) writes:
> 
> |In article <CtsD94.EKJ@eskimo.com>, averyj@eskimo.com (Jim Avery) wrote:
> || I think photovoltaic solar cells ARE renewable . They are comprised
> || mostly of Silicon, the 2nd most abundant element on earth and when
> || their useful life is over they can be ground up into innocuous sand.
> 
> |More useful would be to repurify the silicon and make more solar cells. 
> |Very analogous to aluminum cans: producing the pure feed stock is the most
> |energy intensive part.  You won't find a better source of highly pure
> |silicon.
> 
> The silicon is not pure. It still has the dopants in it.

Of course it does.  However, it provides a much purer source for
semiconductor grade silicon than metallurgical grade silicon, which itself
is produced via reduction of silicon from silicon dioxide.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Bailey                                                          |
| Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering              |
| University of California, Berkeley            BARNEY + RUSH = BARNEY |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+


From Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1004 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jack.Coats
From: Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jack Coats)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Refrigerators - Chest
Message-ID: <21e_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:58:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Amoco Corportation
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Date: 3 Aug 94 12:58:15 GMT

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
>>
>>
>>On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
>>
>>>    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
>>>    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
>>>    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
>>> 
>>> Thats 550 watt hours per day.
>>> A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
>>
>>     Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
>>most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
>>really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
>>as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
>>imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
>>if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
>>do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>>      Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>>         DCK
>> 
>>

Don, I too agree with Greg.  When rating power usage (power * time = energy)
the way most of us think of it when we pay our electric bills, we pay in 
watt hours.  The info of amp-hours per day at a specific voltage is very
useful information when rating capacity, but when trying to relate it back
using more common units (watt-hours rather than watt-days) is just being
considerate even to the rest of us 'meer mortals'.

Possibly a better method of speaking of this would be 'uses less than 
x watt-hours per day'.  This would relate well to me, since it would make
it easy to relate back to my on-grid electrical rates... and thus my 
per month charges electric charges.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org


From Sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanami@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1005 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanami
From: Sopchakd_ptag2_pt_cyanami@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanami)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wasted Powerrregister
Message-ID: <21f_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 23:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:AMERICAN CYANAMID AGRICULTURAL RESEACH CENTER
Lines: 41
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: sopchakd@ptag2.pt.cyanamid.com
Date: 3 Aug 94 18:26:12 GMT

In article <31lvq8$qjv@pandora.sdsu.edu>, bfunk@chemistry.sdsu.edu (brian)
writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCtu2Ep.Hz@netcom.com>
> dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) writes:
> 
>> What planet are to San Diego police from that they can't see in this light?
>> -- 
> 
> It's not the "seeing" for the lumens are adequate, but the modification
> to perceived color. I came out of a store one night and truly thought
> that my car had been stolen. It's red color was changed to gray. So you
> see there is always a cost to pay, in this case a modified perception!
> S.D. Brian

I have never seen a streetlight that was the same color as the sun-
High pressure sodium are peach color- which is a color shift,
Mercury vapor lamps are purple-green (eeechhhh...)
and low pressure sodium lamps are deep yellow.
If I have to have a color shift, at least I want the cheapest one...
Besides, wasn't there a sunglass out there that was amber that claimed
(key word is *claimed*) to give you sharper vision by only allowing 
more monochromatic light in and avoiding some slight blurring due to 
focusing multiple wavelengths on your retina...

	Also, as part of the (sadly) defeated force for keeping the low
pressure sodium streetlights in place, there were police data presented
showing no correlation between the color of streetlights and crime rate.

It is really sad when you think of how much energy and money is wasted
on stupid, useless and probably harmful outdoor lighting, particularly on
highways... There is a better way to handle outdoor lighting. I just wish
those who implement it knew what they were doing.
			
					Dave
					
P.S. please e-mail me responses rather than post this topic on this group-
I don't think that it quite fits the advertised topic(s), but I had to put
my $.02 in...  sopchakd@pt.cyanamid.com


From Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1006 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Greg.Lewis
From: Greg.Lewis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Greg Lewis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Refrigerators - Chest
Message-ID: <220_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 22:57:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: lewis@chaos.ph.utexas.edu (Greg Lewis)
Date: 3 Aug 94 17:57:52 GMT

On Tue, 2 Aug 1994, Don Kulha wrote:

> 
> 
> On 2 Aug 1994, Greg Lewis wrote:
> 
> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!
> > 
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.
> 
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> 


You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.



lewis@chaos.ph.utexas


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1007 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching Induction F
Message-ID: <221_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:43:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:43:33 GMT

Borje Persson VK/EHS/PS (ehsbpe@olga.ericsson.se) wrote:
: I'm not sure that this really comply to the topics of "renewable"
: energy sources but it might interest the ones of you that is "off
: the grid". 
: There are some people in Sweden that has been found
: "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
: been crossing their grounds.
: The method is to put two electrical wires with proper distance
: between each other, in a 90 degree angle to the power lies.
: The induction/magnetic field created from the AC power lines
: has been strong enough to generate 220 volt ac in the cables.
: By connecting the cables to a voltage regulator the home owners
: have been able to generate enough power to support a regular house.
: Sweden is a country that is very regulated by laws of what you can and
: can't do, oddly in this case the power companies could not prove that
: anything was stolen from them and courts have ruled as far as I have
: understood that nothing can stop people to make use of the hearvy
: magnetic fields, provided that the installation is done by a certified
: electrician that can rovide proof that the equipment is safe for 
: electric hazards etc.

: Borje Persson 

Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
details?

Marc Loon
Cape Town


From Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1008 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Marc.Loon
From: Marc.Loon@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Marc Loon)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Rural Electrification
Message-ID: <222_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 14:48:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: marc@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Marc Loon)
Date: 3 Aug 94 09:48:14 GMT

Is anyone out there involved in Rural Electrification, rural Integrated Energy
Planning, PV/RAPS, or similar type of issues in developing countries? I
would really enjoy getting a discussion going on some of these issues. (Add
to the list community participation, area selection, fuel switching).

Marc Loon
Energy for Development Research Centre
University of Cape Town


From Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1009 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mandla.Sibanda
From: Mandla.Sibanda@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Pv Standards Enquiry
Message-ID: <223_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Aug 94 15:51:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of Cape Town
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Date: 3 Aug 94 10:51:06 GMT

Hi everyone 
 I am at the Enegry for dev. research institute in South Africa. We are
currently engaged in a project to develop standards and quality measurements
procedures in SA.  The main reason for this is that RAPS are set to expand
rapidly in SA as rural electrification gains impetus.  I would like to ask
if any of you:
are aware of any international reviews of PV standards which could guide us to
appropiate sources of information,
have reviews of practices in your country in this field?

Alternatively could you suggest organisations in your country which we could
contact for useful information, or international centres / networks which
you think could assist us in these enquiries.

Our interests are PV systems (full systems standards and test
methods for stand alone applications)
Perfomance and durability standards for batteries, inverters and key
appliances (e.g. DC flourescent lights). 

We have in mind standard specifications for system design which have been
developed for some typical PV applications such as for:
home lighting, PV electrification of schools and clinics and PV water
pumping.
We are also interested in codes of practice focusing on installation codes
and procedures, and maintainance procedures.

Sorry about the long article, but any help will be appreciated.

M. Sibanda
University of Cape Town


From Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1010 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Nick.Hopton
From: Nick.Hopton@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Nick Hopton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Berkley Thremonuclear
Message-ID: <224_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 23:41:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Home, in Reading, England.
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Nick@nhopton.demon.co.uk (Nick Hopton)
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:41:56 GMT

In article a recent article Don Kulha wrote:

> CkNvbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBOb3RlcyBmb3IgdGhlIEJlcmtlbGV5IFRoZXJtb251
> Y2xlYXIgUGFyYWJvbG9pZA0KRGF2aWQgQmF0eQ0KMTk5MyBEYXZpZCBCYXR5
> DQoNClRoZSBEZXNpZ24NClRoaXMgaXMgYSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiBob3cg
> dG8gYnVpbGQgYSBsb3cgdGVjaCwgaGlnaCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSANCnB ...

Don, if of your kindness you would tell me what all this was about I should
be obliged.

Signed, 'Puzzled' of England.

-- 
Nick Hopton, Reading, England.


From Byron.Watts@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1011 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Byron.Watts
From: Byron.Watts@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Byron Watts)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Off-the-grid-computer
Message-ID: <225_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 20:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: watts@brophy.rchland.ibm.com (Byron Watts)
Date: 4 Aug 94 15:26:14 GMT


>    The name of the outfit I believe you are refering to is Aircastle and 
>the contact info (3+ years old) I have is 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth 
>MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They were there a year ago when I spoke to them 

I called the number and found it disconnected....

--

Byron T. Watts (Tops)

My opinions are my opinions.

IBM:	     RCHLAND(WATTS)
Internet:  btwatts@vnet.ibm.com

There is an alarming increase in the number of topics I know nothing about.


From Mshadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1012 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mshadowfax
From: Mshadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mshadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching Power Throu
Message-ID: <226_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 20:57:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 4 Aug 94 15:57:05 GMT

In article <mwilson.775949744@ncratl>, mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
(Mark O. Wilson) writes:

"Borrow an EM meter before you invest any money in parts. I suspect that
the field strength around that transformer is quite low. It si covered by
a
metal box after all."

     I've already done some prelim testing and that's about the speed of
it.

"Secondly don't do anything that damages the transformer or the box.
Criminal vandalism, or something like that. Don't do anything that will
prevent the utility workers from gaining access to the box, or one day you
will come home to find your entire assembly in little bitty pieces in the
stree."

     Funny - up until I cleared it out a year ago the only way you could
tell there was a box anywhere in the bushes was by the humming noise.
Since I don't live anywhere near a nuclear reactor that might have leaked
I doubted it was the plants - so it had to be a transformer.

Shadowfax


From Olov.Ostlund@psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1013 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Olov.Ostlund
From: Olov.Ostlund@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Refrigerators - Chest
Message-ID: <227_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 19:29:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Date: 4 Aug 94 14:29:09 GMT

In article 0100000@crl3.crl.com, dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha) writes:
> 
> Greg....It's impossible to win here....When I refer to watt-hours some 
> folks object and when I revert back to using watts others complain. There 
> seems to be no pleasing everyone. Hence I'm not going to worry about it. 
> I've posted hundreds of messages on other nets and received no more than 
> a couple complaints about terminology. On the internet I see more in a 
> week. I'm trying to adhere to the standard I see used in Home Power 
> magazine, and may on occasion flub it...
>     Okay, I'll break out my Mark's manual and bone up on my units time 
> permitting. I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction between 
> power and energy in any case. 
>     DCK
> 
> 


It seems to me there is correlation between people using their own home 
made units and american programmers...........
I had a lot of problems working with some Americans, they could never adapt
to international standards (SI units) of writing the units for speed, 
distance, time, volume, current, voltage and a lot of other things.
(One of them was a formal professor ! (the Univ. feedback)).
It's very nice and easy using SI units, You don't need a lot of conversion
factors.
Is this antipathy against standards something typical for programmers or is it
just some american style of living ?

the opinion above is my own etc.....
/ov


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1014 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Nife Batteries
Message-ID: <228_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:18:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (01 Aug 94) Michael Welch wrote to Cloyce Osborn...

 MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself,
 MW> although they are not yet installed.

 MW> It is my understanding that they have a slightly higher
 MW> self-discharge rate than nicads, but work pretty much the
 MW> same. 

Do these have the same cold weather characteristics as nicads?

I dream of the time when I can buy a battery that won't be affected
by the cold. I had hoped to get some of the refurbished nicads that
were being talked about a few years ago, but since then I've heard
of a few people who had bad experiences with them.

For now my lead acid bank is still performing pretty well, though I
lose efficiency in the winter. But I would like to learn about
what's out there now so I know what my options are when it's time to
upgrade.

Ian



... A distraction is only a distraction if you pay attention to it.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1015 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <229_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:22:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Eric Gray
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) ERIC GRAY wrote to DAVE PAXTON...

 EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

 EG> Also you can then buy fuel w/o the highway tax added on.

 DP> Also, the fuel lasts longer in storage if sealed properly. Gas
 DP> goes stale in a few months time.

I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
that they are more "fuel efficient".

I'm still partial to propane. Less handling, cleaner for the air,
and for the engine.

Ian



... Tagline dropped due to budget cuts.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1016 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar/nuke
Message-ID: <22a_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 6 Aug 94 12:34:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bob Paddock
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (02 Aug 94) Bob Paddock wrote to Don Kulha...

 DK> We operate under the concept that the only nuke we'll ever
 DK> need is conveniently 93 million miles away.

 BP> Doesn't that leave out water power, wind, tides, etc?

As I'm sure others will point out, water and wind power *are*
essentially from the sun originally, and tides are from the moon.

 BP> And what about if some thing new comes along, say a working
 BP> kitchen table top Cold Fusion unit?

If "working" means it's actually safe and doesn't leave us with more
problems than it solves, then I think we should be open to the
possibility. But I personally will have a bias against it if I can't
tinker with it with my grandchildren watching. 




Ian



... ". . . . . . . ... . . . . . . .!"  -Marcel Marceu


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:44:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1017 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Hp #42
Message-ID: <22b_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 01:26:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Don Kuhla
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Don,

Two items from the current HP piqued my interest. One was Richard's
re-write of the article on building a DC engine generator.

What *I* need to know is if anyone is building and selling the field
controller that he talks about. I'm not an intrepid electronic
builder, but I do need such a controller for my gen. It would need
to be useable on 24 volts and up to 150 amps. 

Does Richard have an e-mail address so I could throw these questions
at him directly? 

The other thing that caught me eye was in the article about the
"Suncoaster". The author mentions taking his students on a tour of
the Siemens plant in Vancouver, WA. Have you or anyone else here
toured this plant, or other PV manufacturing facilities? Sounds like
a good field trip for my kids and me.




Ian



... *ll g*** Thi*g* (*** ****) c*** T* *h* Th*T w*iT*.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1018 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: *Where?*
Message-ID: <22c_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Darr Hoag
Status: O
X-Status: 

Monday 08-Aug-94 11:56:33
 santarosa,ca,usa:
Meister Hoag,
DH> @00:53 on 08-01-94, Zachariah Czeck said (to All) this:
DH> > hey guys,  ya know what would be real cool. if everyone put their
DH> > location somwhere in their message maybe a header or part of a tagline
DH> or
DH> > somfin

DH> Or maybe someplace _real_ radical, like the "Origin" line....  (*8

DH> ... Electricians do it in hot boxes!
DH> -+- FMail 0.99a+
DH>  + Origin: The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA - (1:2330/4)

don'tKnow do all FidoBBSs have to have an origin line,  i seem to recall 
plenty of posts without any such beast. funny but there also seem
to be lot's of origin lines that don't give an actual location.
anyway i'm not sure what (if any) origin line my bbs tacks on but the 
location of the bBoard is NOT necissarily the same as where i live.
i expect this is especially true for some of the people that live in the 
farther out places.

besides you didn't even quote the good part of my post ;'>
 Na Zdrowie!!! 
 zachariahCzeck
  jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:44:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1019 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-21!Dick.Dillman
From: Dick.Dillman@125-21.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dick Dillman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoint
Message-ID: <22d_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 13:42:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Environet, the Greenpeace BBS - San Francisco, CA
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >    I don't know about anyone else, but I read this Fidonet echo as 
 > HOMEPOWR.  By definition, "home power" is that energy produced for 
 > and used in the *home*, not by industry or for the grid or whatever. 
 >  What does nuclear have to do with renewable home power generation?  
 > I am yet to see a reactor sitting next to someone's patio furniture 
 > and I hope I never do.

Point taken about nukes not often being found in back yards, Dave - thank the
goddess.  I suppose it was the rather impolitic way discussion about nukes was
banned from the echo that set me off.
 
It's my experience that those of us engaging in discussion about anything
"alternative" often end up speaking only to ourselves and that we tend to
assume certain ideas and attitudes are accepted as fact by all.  Not true of
course.  To me, opposing views set forth by reasonable people can only spice up
the discussion - that's what I was looking for in the discussion about nukes.
 
Anyway, I've gotta go tend the fuel rods out back.
 


From dbrewste@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:44:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1020 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuJHJ5.49v@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <CuE0CF.I9t@csn.org> <1994Aug12.091553.13825@ericsson.se> <hatunenCuG1yH.CwL@netcom.com> <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com> <hatunenCuIJtI.Jzx@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 19:16:16 GMT
Lines: 45
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>,
: Dick Brewster <dbrewste@netcom.com> wrote:
: >DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
: >
: >: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
: >: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
: >: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
: >: household items using three-phase?
: >
: >You won't find three phase in very many (any?) American houses.  Have you 
: >perhaps mixed up 240v power and three phase?

: What are you getting at here? Are you challenging my statement about
: some electric ranges (most are actually single phase 220v -- that's why

Nearly all electric ranges in this country are 240v, because thats what 
the power companies supply to residential users. Residential users in 
this country are supplied with a nominal 120v/240v single phase service.

The 240v is obtained by tapping across the output of one phase of the 
power companies transformer.  120v is obtained by tapping from on side of 
the 240v to ground.

: I said "some") or about electric furnaces? Electric furnaces aren't too
: common because of the cost compared to natural or bottled gas, except
: in the Pacific Northwest; when I lived there electricity cost us $.015
: per killowatt hour -- we thought our first electric bill was a mistake.
: And I beleive the electric furnaces were three-phase.

I did a quick check of electric furnaces and didn't see any three phase 
ones listed.  It wouldn't make much sense to me to go to the trouble to 
run three phase into American houses when nothing else in the house could 
take advantage of three phase powers advantages.  Single phase makes heat 
just as efficiently as three phase.

I have heard that some European countries have three phase for household 
power and that they have appliances with three phase motors available.

And of course, in keeping with the guide lines of this news group, three 
phase would be much more complex to implement with most renewable power 
sources such as photovoltaic or any system requiring storage.
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za Wed Aug 17 22:44:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1021 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ee.und.ac.za!ticsa.com!ucthpx!matisse.eri.uct.ac.za!mandla
From: mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za (Mandla Sibanda)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 14 Aug 1994 20:20:52 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <32lub4$1nt@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
References: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: matisse.eri.uct.ac.za
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

brop9555@utdallas.edu (brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
: Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

: Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: > From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
: > Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



: > On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

: > > I assume that you are joking about this.
: > > 
: > > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
: > > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
: > > cheap!

: >      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
: > such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
: > hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
: > water powered but related to such.....
: >     DCK

: Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
: powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
: the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
: has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
: powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
: superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
: the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
: when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
: Wankel has good potential for the future.

Don't forget that BMW also has a hydrogen powered 7 series


From at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Wed Aug 17 22:44:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1022 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!at770
From: at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank W. Wisner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,us.forsale.misc,ca.forsale
Subject: (no subject given)
Date: 14 Aug 1994 21:05:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <32m0us$rmh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eeyore.ins.cwru.edu
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:1022 sci.energy:24145
Status: O
X-Status: 

dc.forsale,cle.forsale,fs.forsale,la.forsale,ny.forsale,pa.forsale
Subject: 200KW Electric Generator sets
Reply-To: at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank W. Wisner)
References: 
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)



I am posting this for a friend who does not have net access.

(2) 200KW Electric Generator sets for Standby 480 volt 3 phase power.
They are Diesel Turbines, can be converted to gas. Instant start. They have
full maintenance logs. New in 1969. Only started for quarterly maintenance.

Price: $200,000.00 each.

Please reply via e-mail.

Frank


From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:44:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1023 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge F
Message-ID: <hatunenCuJLnv.KyB@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <446_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 20:45:30 GMT
Lines: 68
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <446_9408132201@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Tony Cygan <Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us> wrote:
>
> -=> Quoting Davehatunen to All <=-
>
> Da> In article <quartlowCtoDBB.93G@netcom.com>,
> Da> Len Turnbow <quartlow@netcom.com> wrote:
> >The latest issue of Electronic Engineering Times (July 25) 
> >contains a Power Technologies article written by Mohan 
> >Mankikar titled "Podrazhansky's algorithm".  
> >
> >A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
> >produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
> >is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 
> >In a demonstration earlier this year, the EPTI device charged
> >a bank of EV batteries in about 4 percent of the time that 
> >would be taken by a conventional charger.  The actual figures
> >were 20 minutes for the EPTI device vs. eight hours for the 
> >standard D.C. charger. 

[...]

> Da> Perhaps. But the battery isn't the only problem. 
>
> Da> Considering a full charge on a 48 amp-hour 12 volt battery, it would
> Da> take 576 watt-hours for a full charge. To charge this in 20 minutes
> Da> would require a power input to the charger, and thence to the battery,
> Da> of 3 x 576 = 1728 watts, which at 12 volts is a current of 144 amps.
> Da> The 1.728 kilowatt figure is quite reasonable, and the 144 amp charge
> Da> could be handled with a heavy cable. But how many of these batteries
> Da> must be charged in a full EV battery? Ten? That would require
> Da> a 160 amp service entrance to your house at 110 vac. And that only
> Da> gives you a charge of 7.68 horsepower-hours on the ten batteries.
>
>This equipment would not likely end up as a home recharge
>unit, but rather would be something for a "Quick Charge"
>facility.  Sort of like your local gas station.  
>
>If you were taking an extended trip to the next town and 
>were getting low on charge, you'd pull in and get a charge, 
>then be on your way again or perhaps get ready for the 
>return home.

OK. Let's do some more arithmetic. The figure usually given is that it
takes about 20 HP to maintain a car at 60 mph on level ground. So after
driving for two hours we would need 40 hp-hours of recharge. Taht would
be equivalent to 30 kwh. To recharge in twenty minutes, we need three
times 30, or 90 kw of power. At 110 volts, that's about 800 amps. If
the battery was only 12 volts, the recharge cable would have to handle
7500 amps. What would two cables (the positive and negative) look like
that could carry 7500 amps?

I'm sure you can work out the permutations of battery voltage versus
charging current here. Importantly, a 220 volt service entrance to the
recharging station would have to be able to handle 400 amps per battery
being charged, assuming a recharge efficiency of 100%. How many
batteries do you reckon this station would need to be able to charge at
a time? On a major freeway, how many cars per hour use the service
stations?

Now, I'm not trying to say it can't be done. But it's not as simple as
some would have you think.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Wed Aug 17 22:44:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1024 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!at770
From: at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank W. Wisner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,us.forsale.misc,ca.forsale
Subject: 200KW Electric Generator sets
Date: 14 Aug 1994 21:09:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32m167$s27@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
References: <32m0us$rmh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: at770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Frank W. Wisner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: eeyore.ins.cwru.edu
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:1024 sci.energy:24146
Status: O
X-Status: 





I am posting this for a friend who does not have net access.

(2) 200KW Electric Generator sets for Standby 480 volt 3 phase power.
They are Diesel Turbines, can be converted to gas. Instant start. They have
full maintenance logs. New in 1969. Only started for quarterly maintenance.

Price: $200,000.00 each.

Please reply via e-mail.

Frank



From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:44:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1025 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 21:29:24 GMT
Lines: 13
Status: O
X-Status: 


I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
only group this seems to happen in.

Has anyone else had this problem?

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From jreid@iol.ie Wed Aug 17 22:44:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1026 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!ieunet!iol!iol!not-for-mail
From: jreid@iol.ie (John Reid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,bionet.plants,alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.agriculture,sci.energy
Subject: [Q] Where to find info on "BIO-DIESEL"
Date: 14 Aug 1994 23:55:54 +0100
Organization: Ireland On-Line
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <32m7dq$1j1@ulysses.iol.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ulysses.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Helldiver Packet Viewer 1.01
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:1026 bionet.plants:3578 alt.sustainable.agriculture:3275 sci.agriculture:1424 sci.energy:24148
Status: O
X-Status: 

I would be eternally grateful to anybody who would be so kind as to point me
in the direction of some information on the subject of biological "diesel"-
type fuels, especially that derived from rape seed and similar plants.

I am not a biologist, but I would welcome all suggestions of whatever nature,
as long as the information would be accessible (I live in Ireland).

Any ftp sites, WWW URL's or other such sources would of course be ideal, but
I am also interested in any bibliographies or other such materials that may
be available.

Please e-mail me at : jreid@iol.ie , as I don't get to monitor this group
on a regular basis.

Many thanks in advance to any kind soul out there who can be of assistance!
-- 
John Reid <jreid@iol.ie> -- "May you be in the debugger half an hour before
                               the system knows it's crashed"
                                 -- slightly more modern Irish proverb.


From achen1@csupomona.edu Wed Aug 17 22:44:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1027 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!clstac!achen1
From: achen1@csupomona.edu (ALAN CHEN)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Info request
Date: 14 Aug 94 16:38:31 PST
Organization: Cal Poly U. Pomona
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <1994Aug14.163831.1@clstac>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsa.is.csupomona.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm searching for some sort of reference that could guide me through the
integration of energy efficient and alternate energy systems into a house
beginning from the design phase.  Does such a ref. exist?  If so I wonder if
anyone would be kind enough to point me in the correct direction.  Thanks.

Alan Chen
(Pre) Occupations:        |"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
-Aerospace eng. undergrad |              -L. Long (RAH)
-Dreamer/Writer/Poet      |Yes, I'm an ARO.  No, I'm not transferring!
-RPG player               |Email: achen1@csupomona.edu, GE p1 b+++ r--- , etc.


From dbrewste@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:44:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1028 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuK09H.6B5@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 02:00:53 GMT
Lines: 13
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:

: I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
: through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
: first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
: only group this seems to happen in.

: Has anyone else had this problem?

Yup, I think this should be called alt.energy.renewable.recycled.article
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From vberdaye@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Wed Aug 17 22:44:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1029 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!vberdaye
From: vberdaye@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Vicente Berdayes)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar energy sources?
Date: 15 Aug 1994 02:32:59 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <32mk4r$ilm@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone has leads on sources for solar energy equipment?
 Stuff like lower end cells or collecters that a novice can mess with.

THanks.


From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:44:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1030 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.onramp.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EMF's in home wiring, ap
Date: 15 Aug 1994 04:57:57 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <32mskm$2e5@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <1f7_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Peter Caffell (Peter.Caffell@f1010.n772.z3.fidonet.org) wrote:
: |TD>How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC      |
: |TD>house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC       |
: |TD>house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce     |
: |TD>EMF's (Consider solar panels, DC/AC converters, wind/water turbines).?  |
: |TD>                                                                        |
: |TD>I want to take these considerations into account when designing the wiri|
: |TD>for my home.                                                            |
: +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

: The DC magnetic flux would produce a non-alternating single
: polarity, similar to a fixed magnet.  The strength of the
: field created would be the same as that for an AC circuit using
: the same Wattage.

Power (Wattage - sic) has nothing to do with magnetic field intensity,
which is determined by the MMF (Ampere-Turns) and the permeability of
the magnetic flux path.

: The major difference with DC is that you will not be subjected
: to the 60 Hz pulse produced by the AC current, which according
: to the WHO can be detrimental to health if sufficiently strong.

Normal AC magnetic fields are not in the form of a pulse.  They're
sinusoidal, just like the current waveford that produces them. No
scientific evidence to date supports the folk beliefs that low-level
60-Hz EM field contribute to any health problems despite over 80-years
of human exposure to such fields.  

: 60 Hz AC EMF is rumoured to stimulate brain activity to produce
: hyperactive neural phenomenon, leading to pschosis in some
: people.  This is effect is yet to be varified scientifically,
: but appears reasonable on the surface.

Toads are rumored to cause warts, but don't. Chlorinated water
appears reasonable to be viewed as lethal, but isn't. You premise
would suggest that people working closely with 60-Hz power equipment,
such as power company employees, will become psychotic more often
than those that don't work around these fields.  This hasn't 
happened. 

: Considering that the 40fps scan rate of a TV screen can semi
: comatose the brain into a non-critical state, then it not that
: far fetched to think that 50-60 Hz EMF can do the same.  In
: fact some of the currently available Sound/light/EMF
: biofeedback gadgets that are on the market use this effect to
: control the brain, with quite dramatic results.  Using one of
: theses gadgets, in conjunction with hemisynch generators, you
: can produce a myriad states of consciousness.

Commercial televison uses a 30-Hz field rate, and a 60-Hz. frame
rate, not 40.  While many televison viewers do appear to be
comatose, I suspect that is influenced by factors other than
the frame rate.  If TV frame rates were in the range of the
brains alphas waves, some interaction could result, but they're
not.

: The earth's natural resonant frequency is about 7.8 hz, this is
: also a freq. at which the brain is in a normal state.  I use an
: Earth Field generator in my home to try and counter the effects
: of stray EMF from electrical wiring and appliances.  This
: gadget produces a high intensity 7.8hz magnetic pulse with a
: radius of about 20 yards.  It produces a noticably relaxing
: atmosphere in the house.

The Earth's natural resonance for what?  

If you really believe the EM hazards you describe above to be real,
then why did you go out of your way to install a "high intensity"
electromagnetic field source in your home?  



ps. Before someone else flames you, let me caution that this subject is
    off-topic in alt.energy.renewable.
 




From bfraley@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu Wed Aug 17 22:44:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1031 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!convex!constellation!news.uoknor.edu!ucsvax!bfraley
From: bfraley@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SOL Batteries in cold country
Date: 14 Aug 94 15:59:14 CDT
Organization: University of Oklahoma. (USA)
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <1994Aug14.155914.1@ucsvax>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.15.10.11
Status: O
X-Status: 

 I have a question concerning using solar energy to power an intermittent use 
cabin in colorado.  The cabin will be at about 9,600 feet and, of course, 
subject to very cold temperatures, possibly to -20 or -30 degrees in the 
winter.  What kind of batteries would be most suited to these kind of 
conditions?

I hope I am in the right newsgroup, please direct me elsewhere if I am not.
Private e-mail would be appreciated to:  BFRALEY@aardvark.uoknor.ucs.edu

thanks in advance.

Brad Raley



From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:44:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1032 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.onramp.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Date: 15 Aug 1994 05:27:04 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32mub8$2e5@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <CuDy0A.E33@csn.org> <Pine.3.87.9408131109.A24035-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Don Kulha (dkulha@crl.com) wrote:

:      I went to the SF International airport with a friend recently who 
: was preparing to bid on a new CAD (-Dispatch) system for the security 
: communications system there. In one of the dispatchers rooms they had 
: just done a lighting "upgrade"....and replaced their flourescent lighting 
: with 28, 75w incandescent lights. The alledged reason for this was the 
: flicker associated with their old lights. In addition to the CAD system 
: they were planning on upgrading their airconditioning system since the 
: old one wasn't able to cool the room sufficently anymore. I pointed out 
: that they could likely replace the IC bulbs with compact flourescents and 
: avoid the cost of the airconditioning upgrade as well as saving over 
: $1000 per year on electricity plus the savings on maintanence. They never 
: considered the fact that their A/C would be affected by the lighting when 
: they "upgraded" the lights. Additionally their UPS system to keep the 
: dispatch center running also sourced the lighting. I also silently 
: wondered how long it would take to "cook" the dispatchers out of the room 
: when the A/C (which didn't have backup power) went down (they have some 
: new dual pane sealed windows....).

Alas, flourescents lights are a problem when combined with computer
display systems, because of flicker.  The short persistence of the
phosphors used 60-Hz light fixtures, when combined with the short
persistence of computer displays produces a flicker problem (at least
in the minds and eyes of the Human Factor Engineering types that 
consult on large installations). 

I ran into this problem in designing computer display for both the
Washington, DC and Atlanta, GA subway systems.  The problem stems
from the fact that that the lights and computer displays run at
nearly the same (60-Hz) frequency, but not quite.  This results
in 'beating' between the two light sources that can be both 
annoying and distracting.

A possible solution to be explored, might be to run the flourescents
from some kind of a high-frequency power source, say 2-KHz, which
would eliminate the flicker problem completely, and probably save
both lighting and air conditioning power in the bargain. 

 



From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:45:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1033 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.onramp.net!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 15 Aug 1994 05:56:56 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <32n038$2e5@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <32lub4$1nt@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mandla Sibanda (mandla@matisse.eri.uct.ac.za) wrote:
: brop9555@utdallas.edu (brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: : From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
: : Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

: : Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: : > From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
: : > Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



: : > On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

: : > > I assume that you are joking about this.
: : > > 
: : > > If you're actually serious, please call me the next time that
: : > > you're in Boston.  I have a bridge that I can let you have real
: : > > cheap!

: : >      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
: : > such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
: : > hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
: : > water powered but related to such.....
: : >     DCK

: : Yeah, I beleive Mazda has a fleet of 100 Miatas equipt with Hydrogen 
: : powered wankel engine in use right as we speak.  The Wankel rotary design is 
: : the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
: : has a moving combustion chamber design.  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
: : powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
: : superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
: : the Hydrogen Wankel project.  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
: : when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.  The Hydrogen 
: : Wankel has good potential for the future.

: Don't forget that BMW also has a hydrogen powered 7 series


How is corrosion being controlled?  High temperature steam can be 
rough on many metals.
                                     Harry C.

ps.  My original post addressed only the concept of a 'Water Engine'.
     A Hydrogen fueled engine is not a Water engine. 

 


From Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1034 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Richard.Russell
From: Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Richard Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
Message-ID: <255_9408150003@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 08:02:09 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Richardson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototype
 
> VLV> : AFS expects their prototype vehicle (flywheel powered) will have
> VLV> : a range of 370 miles on a 15 minute charge of household current
> VLV> : and zip from zero to 60mph in 6.8 seconds.  They expect it to be
> Two solutions, 1, use two contra-rotating flywheels, one located within
> the other, the precession can be balanced out in this manner. Or 2)
> couple the flywheel inductively, with electromagnets, and allow the
> flywheel to precess all it wants on magnetic bearings. Both solutions
> are workable, both are used in other applications.
>                 Jim Ricardson

I would be interested in hearing more about the AFS (what does that stand
for) and sources on the two flywheel designs you mention. I've been curious
about the use of large flywheels for home power storage as well as combining
flywheels with a hovercraft design, something that in it's nature tends to
stay reasonably level as it travels. Any direction towards sources of info
and/or thoughts on these ideas would be most appreciated.
               Richard Russell


From vasu@hood.physik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Wed Aug 17 22:45:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1035 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!xlink.net!nntp.gmd.de!urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de!newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de!deimos.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE!vasu
From: vasu@hood.physik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Vasu Chandrasekhara)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 9 Aug 1994 14:14:37 GMT
Organization: Fachbereich Physik, Universitaet Osnabrueck, Germany
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32830e$8bb@deimos.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE>
References: <ca4_9407281612@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <31pcfl$e6e@news.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hood.physik.uni-osnabrueck.de
Status: O
X-Status: 



>I have a question which someone could answer, how enviromental are solar
>panel to make. Is the actually process which purifies and combines
>the silicon enviromental???? just wondering

as far as i know all modern production sites bind the chemicals in a recycling
process.

A specialist in solar panel technology gave a speech at our university two
months ago. the interesting point was that the argument (probably distributed by
the nuclear lobby) that solar panels cost more energy to produce than they will
ever put out in their average lifespan is wrong (I actually had read that too).
secondly the raw materials for solar panels are mostly the silicium crystal
blocks left over from semi-conductor production. these blocks are then melted
again and reused. the best efficiency delivered so far lies around somewhat 25%
and are lab results. The learning kurve for industry production in this field is
at aprx. 10years. this means it takes around 10years for the production to
double and the prices to cut down 50%. even thouch lab results are at 20-25%
efficiency real world production (such as in SIEMENS) could not meet that high
efficiency levels at low prices. 

in the essence an aproximation was given for germany:
with a special technology programm adding 5-10% each year in investment 
in solar electrification economical feasibility would be given around 2010
(including a standard increase in oil prices)
with thing running as they are economical feasibility would be given aroun
2030.
(This was a statement backed by a statistical prognosis at the speech.)

hope this was interesting ...
vasu


From eraace@kiba2.ericsson.se Wed Aug 17 22:45:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1036 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!ericom!kiba52!eraace
From: eraace@kiba2.ericsson.se (Anders Cederlund)
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <1994Aug15.114443.15586@ericsson.se>
Sender: news@ericsson.se
Nntp-Posting-Host: kiba52.ericsson.se
Reply-To: eraace@kiba2.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Radio Systems - Business Unit Japan
References: <hatunenCuIJtI.Jzx@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 11:44:43 GMT
Lines: 25
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article Jzx@netcom.com, hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
> In article <dbrewsteCuGAqs.KH6@netcom.com>,
> Dick Brewster <dbrewste@netcom.com> wrote:
> >DaveHatunen (hatunen@netcom.com) wrote:
> >
> >: That's interesting. It's hard to think of anything in an American house
> >: that might use three-phase current. Some electic ranges, and certainly
> >: electric furnaces, but that's about it. Does Sweden have a lot of
> >: household items using three-phase?
> >

No. We have 380V three-phase into our homes but no, basically all household
items uses one phase-neutral 220V, even the stove.
You have three phases going into it but in my four "burner" stove, one phase
heats the two left "burners", the next heats the two right and the last
is used for the oven.
It's the same for the wall outlets, different rooms use different phases.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Cederlund                       Take this Cross and Garlic.
Ericsson Radio Systems AB              Here's a Mezuzah if he's Jewish.
Tel: +46 8 757 28 53                   A page of the Koran if he's a Muslim.
Fax: +46 8 764 18 89                   And if he's a Zen Buddhist,
E-mail: eraace@kiba2.ericsson.se       you are on your own.



From mshadowfax@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:04 EDT 1994
Article: 1037 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Date: 15 Aug 1994 12:32:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32o5a4$2qo@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
(DaveHatunen) writes:

"I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
only group this seems to happen in.
Has anyone else had this problem?"


     Just today I received some posts almost a month old . . . this isn't
the first time either. Must be bouncing off Pluto.

Shadowfax




From Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1038 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Larry.D..Yuengel
From: Larry.D..Yuengel@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Larry D. Yuengel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Biofuels
Message-ID: <d64_9408151035@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 06:00:43 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dennis Keim
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Biofuels
 
> Seems like I recall that castor bean oil is good in the fuel tank or the 
> oil sump of Diesel units.  Other vegetable oils work too I understand.  
> I'm not sure what the problems all are.  There are probably some.

I have read that hemp seed oil is about the best for lubrication and fuel.
And the US government does give reaserchers grants for study of bio-oils...so 
if you find the University doing the study you may have some good info for a
choice.
Popeye the Sailor

Metropolis BBS  VBBS 6.14  VNet @1618001 East St. Louis, Illinois USA
CD-ROM Multi-Line All 14.400! Games Chat And Much More! 618-398-8186


From Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1039 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Richard.Russell
From: Richard.Russell@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Richard Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <d65_9408151035@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 09:33:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ken Bridges
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: Solar South Calculation
 
> Allen J. Filson wrote in a message to All:
> AJF> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as
> AJF> opposed to the  "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a
>       Look at a map of Magnett declinations, here in Vermont when my compass
> reads 16 degrees west its then pointing at true north. So here there is enoug
> difference to make it matter. Many solar supply catalouges have this kind of
> info. You could also check out nautical maps as they should provide this info
> If you live near the cost call the coast guard :) theyll know.
>   Ken

You can also check an aeronautical map or call your local airport they have
the info as well. But I believe you should sight it in to the sun at noon and
that is something that changes through the year so either set and adjust
seasonaly or build a tracking device that can be auto-controlled by your
computer.
     Richard


From dwjurkat@rodan.syr.edu Wed Aug 17 22:45:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1040 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!rodan.syr.edu!dwjurkat
From: dwjurkat@rodan.syr.edu (Jurkat)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching power through induction
Date: 15 Aug 1994 17:11:17 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <32o7jl$4pr@newstand.syr.edu>
References: <7b0_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.syr.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <7b0_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us> MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax) writes:
>From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
>Date: 3 Aug 94 15:55:03 GMT
>
>In article <hatunenCtxwK1.D9u@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
>(DaveHatunen) writes:
>
>"Fascinating. And just why was the Federal Communications Commission
>deciding cases having to do with power theft? 
>Besides, theft is a criminal law matter."
>
>     The way it was explained to me by one of my physics teachers was that
>the EM radiation was being labled as "broadcast" power from the overhead
>lines and that that was the providence of the FCC. The "theft" was not
>direct (connection to the lines), merely a by-product of the line's
>presence. The power company was encouraged to do something about its
>losses, which it pretty much admitted it couldn't, so the whole thing was
>dropped.
>
>Shadowfax

Was he able to sell the power back to the power company?  ;


From rabii@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1041 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: WAY-Off-Topic Post, Please Read Anyway
Message-ID: <rabiiCuL7n1.I8B@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 17:37:49 GMT
Lines: 27
Status: O
X-Status: 

I know what I am about to ask is completely off-topic, but it seems to me
that some folks around here might have the answer to my question or
know someone who does.

I am looking for CURRENT data (as much as I can find) regarding the
effectiveness of carbon in removing perchloroethylene from the waste water
effluent producd by dry cleaning machines.  I have posted this request on
what I thought were the appropriate newsgroups with limited success.  Carbon
manufacturers are STINGY in giving out this information, and the one person
I have found who has done testing won't share it.

If you have any leads, please pass them on (via e-mail).  Feel free to
circulate this post.

Now, getting back on-topic.  The end of Steven Segals past movie, On Deadly
Ground, makes reference to a variety of alternative technology supressed
by oil companies.  A claim that the ICE is 50 years outdated comes was made.
What other info on this is available.  I'm just curious.

Thanks - 


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From rabii@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1043 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <rabiiCuLJ59.21H@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 21:46:21 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:


>I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
>through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
>first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
>only group this seems to happen in.

>Has anyone else had this problem?

No.  Which newsreader are you using.  I'm using nn.


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From r_steer@cpcug.digex.net Wed Aug 17 22:45:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1044 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!cpcug!r_steer
From: r_steer@cpcug.digex.net (Randy Steer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 15 Aug 1994 23:51:22 GMT
Organization: Capital PC User Group Rockville, MD USA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net>
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cpcug.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gale Barrows (Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: TC> > There has been lots of messages in sci.energy that imply that
: TC> > the total emissions are *much* larger for ev's than regular old
: TC> > ICE.

: TC> LC> Want to enlighten as to how they come to that conclusion?

There were answers that talked about the TRANSMISSION of extra 
electricity.  It's not the transmission that creates pollution, it's the 
GENERATION of it.  If the electricity happens to be derived from wind or 
solar or hydro, then there's no real pollution.  The assertions about EVs 
are based on the current national mix (or California mix) of generating 
capacity.

The whole electricity generating/transmission cycle delivers only about 1
unit of energy at your wall socket for every three units of energy burned
at the power-plant.  Take as an example an oil-fired power-plant, and for 
first approximation let's assume that fuel oil and gasoline are the 
same.  It takes 3 gallons of "gasoline" at the powerplant to deliver one 
gallon of gasoline at your electric outlet.  That's 3 gallons worth of 
pollution to deliver 1 gallon's worth of energy.  Now it pollutes no 
further once it's converted to electricity, and the power-plant actually 
can control its pollution better than a car, and EVs go further on a unit 
of energy put into them than ICEs do, but after you add it all up, EVs in 
any place that gets a lot of its energy from fossil fuesl will cause more 
total pollution than ICEs.

The location of pollution counts, though.  In LA, pollution generated 
outside the basin will not be nearly as problematic for air quality as 
pollution generated on the city streets.  That's why they'd like EVs, 
even if it means that total national pollution would increase slightly.

Other responses addressed recyclability.

Most commercial EVs are expected to be very recyclable, and the "big 
three" at least are assuming that battery recycling will have to be part 
of the vehicle maintenance and life-cycle.



From r_steer@cpcug.digex.net Wed Aug 17 22:45:15 EDT 1994
Article: 1045 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!cpcug!r_steer
From: r_steer@cpcug.digex.net (Randy Steer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge for EVs
Date: 15 Aug 1994 23:58:17 GMT
Organization: Capital PC User Group Rockville, MD USA
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32ovep$82e@news1.digex.net>
References: <aa2_9408070651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cpcug.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Len Turnbow (Len.Turnbow@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:

: A  Norcross, GA outfit named Electronic Power Technology, Inc. 
: produces a computer-controlled battery charger for EV use that 
: is claimed to fast-charge lead acid batteries. 

: Dr. Yury Podrazhansky, a Russan emigre scientist developed
: the three-step algorithm.  First, positive charging pulses 

Pulse charging is know to most of the people working in the battery 
industry.  Much of the research on the exact effects on electrode 
surfaces was done at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories, funded by the 
Department of Energy.  At least some, and perhaps all, of the auto 
companies are now incorporating pulse charging into their EV plans.



From axel@dssdev.enet.dec.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:17 EDT 1994
Article: 1046 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!decwrl!pa.dec.com!mrnews.mro.dec.com!dssdev.enet.dec.com!axel
From: axel@dssdev.enet.dec.com (My name is Mike Axel)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Date: 15 AUG 94 17:56:49
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32oobs$3o@mrnews.mro.dec.com>
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: maytag.enet.dec.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In article <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes...
> 
>I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
>through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
>first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
>only group this seems to happen in.
> 
>Has anyone else had this problem?

Yes.

I get some 3 or 4 times.

Mike Axel


From r_steer@cpcug.digex.net Wed Aug 17 22:45:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1047 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!cpcug!r_steer
From: r_steer@cpcug.digex.net (Randy Steer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars battery recycling
Date: 15 Aug 1994 23:11:13 GMT
Organization: Capital PC User Group Rockville, MD USA
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32osmh$82e@news1.digex.net>
References: <9408101833.tn917179@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cpcug.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

DBHolmes@aol.com wrote:
: Several people have questioned whether old batteries from electrical vehicles
: could or would be recycled ...  But, the automobile battery business has,
: for many years, had a very high rate of recycling.

: The old battery is relatively easy to disassemble, and the lead is quite easy
: to melt, and reclaim, in a high-purity form. Some people are reclaiming the

Most electric vehicles, starting a few years, won't be using lead-acid 
batteries, so the old recycling infrastructure will have to be adapted.

Aside from cost, that's one reason NiCd batteries are not popular with 
the major auto manufacturers for their EV programs:  they have thrown 
their support to nickel/metal-hydride (NiMH) batteries instead, because 
they don't contain cadmium, which would have to be handled as a toxic 
substance throughout the recycling system.

All of the bettery technologies receiving support from the U.S. Advanced 
Battery Consortium must have the potential to be recyclable.



From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:19 EDT 1994
Article: 1048 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <hatunenCuLny9.AM@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com> <rabiiCuLJ59.21H@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 23:30:09 GMT
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <rabiiCuLJ59.21H@netcom.com>, Richard Boyd <rabii@netcom.com> wrote:
>hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen) writes:
>
>
>>I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
>>through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
>>first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
>>only group this seems to happen in.
>
>>Has anyone else had this problem?
>
>No.  Which newsreader are you using.  I'm using nn.

Trn. But this is the only group I read with the problem. The ghost
posts are usually at least two weeks old. I thought maybe the BBS that
this group springs from might have a problem.



-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From gnudd@bga.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1049 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!news.i-link.com!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!slip232.bga.com!user
From: gnudd@bga.com (Greg Nudd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar energy sources?
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: 16 Aug 1994 00:53:12 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <gnudd-150894195043@slip232.bga.com>
References: <32mk4r$ilm@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip232.bga.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32mk4r$ilm@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
vberdaye@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Vicente Berdayes) wrote:

> Hello, I'm wondering if anyone has leads on sources for solar energy equipment?
>  Stuff like lower end cells or collecters that a novice can mess with.
> 
> THanks.


Check out the following URL:

http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/seia_database/pv.html

That will link you to a list of the photovoltaic vendors who are members of
the Solar Energy Industry Association. This information is kindly provided
by the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) in
Washington D.C.

BTW - if you don't have access to a WWW client, I'll email you the lists.


-- 
Greg Nudd

gnudd@bga.com
finger for PGP public key
WWW home page: http://www.realtime.net/~gnudd/


From barry@bluesky.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1050 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!insosf1.infonet.net!news.i-link.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!usenet
From: barry@bluesky.com (Barry Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 16 Aug 1994 03:18:34 GMT
Organization: Blue Sky Research
Lines: 31
Sender: barry@bluesky.bluesky.com
Message-ID: <32pb6a$6u7@pdx1.world.net>
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  
 <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: barry.bluesky.com
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.1@barry.bluesky.com
X-Authenticated: barry on POP host bluesky.bluesky.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net>
r_steer@cpcug.digex.net (Randy Steer) writes:

> but after you add it all up, EVs in 
> any place that gets a lot of its energy from fossil fuesl will cause more 
> total pollution than ICEs.
> 
> The location of pollution counts, though.  In LA, pollution generated 
> outside the basin will not be nearly as problematic for air quality as 
> pollution generated on the city streets.  That's why they'd like EVs, 
> even if it means that total national pollution would increase slightly.

Before you pontificate, you might try getting some actual data. About
three weeks ago, I posted a lengthy comparison of EV and ULEV
(California-defined ultra-low emission vehicle, _gasoline_ powered)
total emissions for a 100,000 mile lifetime, data obtained directly
from the California Air Resources Board.

Simply put, you're wrong.  _Way_ wrong.  The CARB conclusion was that,
in the South Coast Air Basin (LA), EVs were better than an order of
magnitude fewer emissions compared to (non-existent) ULEVs, and three
orders of magnitude better than the average car on the street.  And,
yes, the comparison included out-of-basin sources, and battery
recycling emissions.

Go ahead, give them a call.  They're nice people, and would love to
send you as much information as you could wish for.


Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research
barry@bluesky.com


From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1051 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 200KW Electric Generator sets
Date: 16 Aug 1994 05:39:27 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408152225.A9829-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <32m167$s27@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 14 Aug 1994, Frank W. Wisner wrote:

> I am posting this for a friend who does not have net access.
> 
> (2) 200KW Electric Generator sets for Standby 480 volt 3 phase power.
> They are Diesel Turbines, can be converted to gas. Instant start. They have
> full maintenance logs. New in 1969. Only started for quarterly maintenance.
> 
> Price: $200,000.00 each.

       Interesting! I've been looking for a new generator but this is a 
bit more than I need to run the washer, equalize batteries and run the 
radial arm saw....That's one hell of a generator. About hospital sized?
    DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1052 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Really Fast Charge F
Date: 16 Aug 1994 06:10:12 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 34
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408152203.A9829-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <hatunenCuJLnv.KyB@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 14 Aug 1994, DaveHatunen wrote:

> 
> OK. Let's do some more arithmetic. The figure usually given is that it
> takes about 20 HP to maintain a car at 60 mph on level ground. So after
> driving for two hours we would need 40 hp-hours of recharge. Taht would
> be equivalent to 30 kwh. To recharge in twenty minutes, we need three
> times 30, or 90 kw of power. At 110 volts, that's about 800 amps. If
> the battery was only 12 volts, the recharge cable would have to handle
> 7500 amps. What would two cables (the positive and negative) look like
> that could carry 7500 amps?

...omitted...

      You're absolutely right. I'd more reasonably expect to get a  
little electrical "snack" for an EV in a twenty minute quickie charge at 
maybe a tenth the rates you mention above. 

      I think the root of whether an EV works depends on the paradigms we 
have set up for vehicles. I don't expect to drive an EV 100 miles at a 
crack and expect a quickie charge to set me up for another 100. I tend to 
think of a near term practical EV that I would buy as a "town car", with 
a very limited range, suufficient to get me home and to the office, maybe 
across town once and about about 5 miles worth of side trips; about 40 
miles per day. That would work for me about 4-5 days out of 7. Cabling 
for 80 ah, a tenth of your example, isn't inconsequential. I tend to 
blanche a bit when thinking about charging a big battery bank at a 2/C 
rate. If I could get a mile out of each minute of charge at a public 
charging station I'd consider that a major victory.
     DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1053 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Date: 16 Aug 1994 06:18:26 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408152311.A9829-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <32mub8$2e5@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 15 Aug 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

> Don Kulha (dkulha@crl.com) wrote:

> Alas, flourescents lights are a problem when combined with computer
> display systems, because of flicker.  The short persistence of the
> phosphors used 60-Hz light fixtures, when combined with the short
> persistence of computer displays produces a flicker problem (at least
> in the minds and eyes of the Human Factor Engineering types that 
> consult on large installations). 
> 
> A possible solution to be explored, might be to run the flourescents
> from some kind of a high-frequency power source, say 2-KHz, which
> would eliminate the flicker problem completely, and probably save
> both lighting and air conditioning power in the bargain. 

     Yep, the compact flourescents I'd suggest (OSRAM 20w) run at around 
35KHz.....zip flicker/screen problems. It's a shame they didn't put good 
ballasts/bulbs in as opposed to "upgrading" to incandescents. My friends 
into Ham radio tell me the OSRAM Dulux are the cleanest radio wise....
     DCK
 



From igt@wimsey.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1054 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!uunet.ca!uunet.ca!scipio.cyberstore.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme10.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Was Re:Solar Air Conditioner, now SF Airport lighting?
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 01:12:05 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <igt.85.2E501264@wimsey.com>
References: <CuDy0A.E33@csn.org> <Pine.3.87.9408131109.A24035-0100000@crl3.crl.com> <32mub8$2e5@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme10.pomo.wis.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32mub8$2e5@sundog.tiac.net> conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
>From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
>Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
>Date: 15 Aug 1994 05:27:04 GMT

>Don Kulha (dkulha@crl.com) wrote:

>:      I went to the SF International airport with a friend recently who 
>: was preparing to bid on a new CAD (-Dispatch) system for the security 
>: communications system there. In one of the dispatchers rooms they had 
>: just done a lighting "upgrade"....and replaced their flourescent lighting 
>: with 28, 75w incandescent lights.

other background stuff from Don Kulha deleted

>Alas, flourescents lights are a problem when combined with computer
>display systems, because of flicker.  The short persistence of the
>phosphors used 60-Hz light fixtures, when combined with the short
>persistence of computer displays produces a flicker problem (at least
>in the minds and eyes of the Human Factor Engineering types that 
>consult on large installations). 

>I ran into this problem in designing computer display for both the
>Washington, DC and Atlanta, GA subway systems.  The problem stems
>from the fact that that the lights and computer displays run at
>nearly the same (60-Hz) frequency, but not quite.  This results
>in 'beating' between the two light sources that can be both 
>annoying and distracting.

>A possible solution to be explored, might be to run the flourescents
>from some kind of a high-frequency power source, say 2-KHz, which
>would eliminate the flicker problem completely, and probably save
>both lighting and air conditioning power in the bargain. 


They might try electronic ballasts, which run at much higher frequencies 
(20-60 kHz, according to BC Hydro).  They are available at 120V, 277V and 347V 
ratings for T12s and T8s from a variety of manufacturers, including EBT, 
Phillips, Smallwood, ELBA, Flotronic and others.  

I've had several hundred EBT's (model SSB2-277-2/32 IS LH) installed in 
offices in BC, some over a Dept. of Highways CAD office, with 
compliments on the *improvement* in lighting quality.  These operate at 
21-26kHz.

Other issues should also be considered, such as colour rendition index and 
colour temperature.  *Major* (>40%) energy savings can be had by delamping and 
installing specular reflectors.  In particular, they should probably install 
parabolic lenses ("eggcrates") to avoid glare issues with the CRTs.

What this points out is the need for a good lighting design, considering both 
energy & lighting quality, by a qualified professional.  If you mention that 
3-4 year paybacks are typical, given utility incentive programs like Power 
Smart here in BC, they might sit up and take some notice.

Good luck, Don!


Sayonara, y'all!

I.G. Theaker




From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1055 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Date: 16 Aug 1994 06:36:46 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408152300.A9829-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <32830e$8bb@deimos.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 9 Aug 1994, Vasu Chandrasekhara wrote:

> A specialist in solar panel technology gave a speech at our university two
> months ago. the interesting point was that the argument (probably distributed by
> the nuclear lobby) that solar panels cost more energy to produce than they will
> ever put out in their average lifespan is wrong (I actually had read that too).
> secondly the raw materials for solar panels are mostly the silicium crystal
> blocks left over from semi-conductor production. these blocks are then melted
> again and reused. the best efficiency delivered so far lies around somewhat 25%
> and are lab results. The learning kurve for industry production in this field is
> at aprx. 10years. this means it takes around 10years for the production to
> double and the prices to cut down 50%. even thouch lab results are at 20-25%
> efficiency real world production (such as in SIEMENS) could not meet that high
> efficiency levels at low prices. 

     I got a great laugh reading a wonderful old book I have "More, Other 
Homes and Garbage" I believe it was published in 1981 and in the section 
on photovoltaics they were predicting 50 cent/watt PV arrarys by 1986.
    DCK




From baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu Wed Aug 17 22:45:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1056 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ennews!enuxsa.eas.asu.edu!baravind
From: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (Bhaskar Aravind, EE Graduate)
Subject: New battery technologies
Message-ID: <CuM37M.6Go@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Keywords: Rechargable batteries
Sender: news@ennews.eas.asu.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
Reply-To: baravind@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 04:59:45 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,
 
As part of a graduate research project I came across new(!)
rechargable battery technologies like zinc-air, alkaline,
fiber Ni-Cd. I would very much appreciate if someone
knowledgable on the net can give me some leads on the
above rechargable technologies.
 
Any info like papers, magazine articles, FAQ's, company info
or a summary of these will be really helpful.
 
Please post or e-mail at the earliest as I need the info
in a couple of days.
 
Thanx in advance,
Bhaskar




From mbishop@io.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1057 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!illuminati.io.com!mbishop
From: mbishop@io.com (mbishop)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculation
Date: 16 Aug 1994 05:48:02 GMT
Organization: Illuminati Online (on pentagon)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <32pjui$2i8@illuminati.io.com>
References: <a69_9408091909@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gale Barrows (Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
> AJF>Presently I'm looking at parcels of land in which to build a passive solar
> AJF>house with a P.V. electric system.  My question is:

> AJF>(1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as opposed to the
> AJF>"Magnetic South"?  I know there is a difference between the two but is it
> AJF>great enough to worry about?

Put a stick in the ground on a sunny day.  Measure the the length of the 
stick 7.5 degrees (half hour).  The shortest length shadow points solar 
south.

I recall that a study of solar houses oriented as much as 15 degrees 
either way of south makes little difference.  I can't find the 
reference.  It was material from a Texas Solar Energy Society Conference.



From howard.smith@spacebbs.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1058 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: test
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!barrnet.net!iserver.spacebbs.com!spacebbs!howard.smith
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6.305.1809.0NAEA7D4@spacebbs.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 00:41:00 -0700
Organization: Space BBS - 15 node PCBoard - FTP/TELNET/GOPHER - (415-323-4193)
Lines: 5
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Test seed msg.  Hi Howard!
Hi Owen!
hhs
---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From howard.smith@spacebbs.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1059 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisla
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!barrnet.net!iserver.spacebbs.com!spacebbs!howard.smith
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <6.306.1809.0NAEA7D5@spacebbs.com>
References: <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 00:41:00 -0700
Organization: Space BBS - 15 node PCBoard - FTP/TELNET/GOPHER - (415-323-4193)
Lines: 23
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio

>The whole electricity generating/transmission cycle delivers only about 1
>unit of energy at your wall socket for every three units of energy burned
>at the power-plant.  Take as an example an oil-fired power-plant, and for
>first approximation let's assume that fuel oil and gasoline are the
>same.  It takes 3 gallons of "gasoline" at the powerplant to deliver one
>gallon of gasoline at your electric outlet.  That's 3 gallons worth of
>pollution to deliver 1 gallon's worth of energy.  Now it pollutes no
>further once it's converted to electricity, and the power-plant actually
>can control its pollution better than a car, and EVs go further on a unit
>of energy put into them than ICEs do, but after you add it all up, EVs in
>any place that gets a lot of its energy from fossil fuesl will cause more
>total pollution than ICEs.

This analysis doesn't hold water. Most experts, like JPL, rate the
efficiency of the average ICE about 15% at the flywheel - to the ground
it's about 5% to 9%. The average electric delivers better the 50% to the
ground. That's a factor of 10 better.

hhs
---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From gronbeck@access1.digex.net Wed Aug 17 22:45:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1060 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: gronbeck@access1.digex.net (Christopher Gronbeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: CREST AE WWW and Gopher sites (Xpost)
Date: 16 Aug 1994 08:25:14 -0400
Organization: Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology
Lines: 31
Sender: ceg@crest.org
Message-ID: <32qb7a$8lc@access1.digex.net>
References: <igt.65.2E4A595F@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <igt.65.2E4A595F@wimsey.com>, Ian G. Theaker <igt@wimsey.com> wrote:
>Hi there, AER community!
>
>Found this on the AE Listserv, and thought it would be of interest to the 
>group.  I just got back from their WWW site, and found MUCH useful stuff: 
>links to the Electric Ideas Clearinghouse, Lawrence Berkeley Labs, the NREL, 
>American Hydrogen Association, PV advice, and much more....
>
>Unfortunately, the Canadian sites on "Green" housing and the federal ministry 
>Natural Resources Canada won't let me connect, and there are some other 
>(minor) issues, soon to be corrected, I suspect.

It must have been some temporary downtime at their servers because I've
never had a problem with them.  I just checked and they are back on
line as of 8:00 AM EDT.  The URLs are:

      http://web.cs.ualberta.ca/~art/house/
      http://es1.es.emr.ca/

Thanks for the post, Ian.

Christopher Gronbeck
ceg@crest.org
http://solstice.crest.org

--
-- 
Christopher Gronbeck
Technical Stuff
Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST)
gronbeck@digex.net     +1-202-289-5366     fax +1-202-289-5354


From rlowles@ajlc.waterloo.on.ca Wed Aug 17 22:45:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1061 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rlowles@ajlc.waterloo.on.ca (Rob Lowles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculation
Date: 16 Aug 1994 12:42:41 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 1
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408161230.MAA29311@matrix.ajlc.waterloo.on.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

An easy way to find solar south is to get the sun set and sun rise times fre news paper. Find the mid-point of these two times. The shadow at this time points to "solar north".


From rabii@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:45:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1062 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: Re: California Regulatory Activities
Message-ID: <rabiiCuMx81.Io6@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <rabiiCuFr39.EnI@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 15:48:00 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi, everyone.

The California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) is getting ready
to open up a public BBS system.  This system will have information
concerning regulatory activities of all environmental agencies in the state
as well has adopted regulations.

More info to follow, shortly.

Please feel free to pass this post to anyone who might be interested.

Thanks - 

-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1063 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <a82_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 21:20:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-14-94  19:42, through the porthole we saw
-<Tony Weeks say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 TW> Do you know of a supplier for 12VDC PC power supplies?  I was
 TW> thinkin about getting a UPS and charging the battery from a
 TW> wind generator.

I *finally* found the ad I was referring to on the dc-powered
computer supplies.  I'll reprint the ad below.  I have no idea
how good the product or company is, but it's a start anyway.

*** ad starts here ***
IBM PC AT-type supplies operate from 12, 24, or 48V dc.

A line of IBM PC AT-type supplies operates from 12, 24, or 48V
dc inputs and handles 100, 125, or 240W, respectively.  Input-
output isolation is 500V dc.  The supplies have short-circuit
protection with automatic recovery.  Operating temperature is 0
to 50 deg C.  $187 (1000); delivery from stock.

Mesa Power Systems
Escondido, CA        (zip code not given)

619/489-8162
*** end of ad ***

My comments:

Maybe they have a reseller that you can buy through.  It might
be somewhat difficult to buy 1000 of the units to get that $187
price. <g>

It took me a second time around reading the ad to realize that
the power ratings are different for different input voltages;
you can't just pick a-la-carte.

12 V supply gives 100 W
24 V supply gives 125 W
48 V supply gives 240 W

I do not know if these voltage ratings are nominal battery
voltages or if they are supposed to be from
regulated/unregulated industrial bus power supplies.

Good luck on your power supply hunt.  Sorry it took so long for
me to get this info to you, but it couldn't be helped.

Jeff

... Scratch & Sniff here [          ]...   Smells Like Glass, Don't It?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1064 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Optima Batteries
Message-ID: <a83_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 21:34:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-24-94  23:45, through the porthole we saw
-<Gale Barrows say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 GB> Optima Batteries is based out of Colorado and has an 800 number.

Thanks for the info.  I'll look them up.

 GB> I know of one outfit that uses one standard 12 volter to start
 GB> a D7 Cat even in cold weather. The Optima replaced 4 6 volt
 GB> conventional batteries and does a better job !!!

That's a lot of current!

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1065 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <a84_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 21:39:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 07-25-94  00:32, through the porthole we saw
-<Gale Barrows say to Jeffrey Vandyke:

 GB> Do the 110 monitors use a similar power system to regular tv's?

I really wouldn't have the foggiest idea.  I've done a bit of
wiring, but I won't touch the insides of tv's, monitors, or do
any house-type wiring. :)

 GB> couldn't the power supply from an AC/DC tv be adapted.

I wouldn't know.  You would probably have to supply a power-
good signal to the motherboard.  I don't know about any other
requirements.

 GB> How about just using a AC/DC black and white tv for the monitor
 GB> if you are primarily interested in text and only low grade graphics
 GB> (that is my situation)?

Might work, depending on your software, etc.  I personally need
more resolution and must admit I've become rather addicted to
the color coding of programs' screens that a color screen lets
me do.

Jeff

... Scratch & Sniff here [          ]...   Smells Like Glass, Don't It?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1066 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <a85_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 21:43:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 08-03-94  11:41, through the porthole we saw
-<William Goodson say to All:

 WG> With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
 WG> if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
 WG> plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
 WG> need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
 WG> is a 486/33, if that matters.

I just left a message to Tony Weeks about just such a ready-
make supply.  It *might* work for you.  You would have to
contact the manufacturer to see if it would work for you.

Jeff

... I warned you about programmers.  Now you are HEXED!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1067 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-249-121-3!Gordon.Campbell
From: Gordon.Campbell@p3.f121.n249.z1.fidonet.org (Gordon Campbell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <a8b_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 00:52:16 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Esc1.71 - An 18% Grey Point - Kingston, ON, Canada
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

G'day Michael!

On 10 Aug 94 13:05, Michael Welch blathered to Gordon Campbell about NiFe
batteries:

 MW> lot of calls about good deep cycle batteries, as well.  I ended
 MW> up with a free set of 100 amp hour nicads, approximately 50 good
 MW> ones.

Sounds like a good deal to me! :-)

 MW> The point is to put the word out in whatever way you can.

The classified idea sounds promising, thanks.

 MW> New nife batteries can be had through Alternative Energy
 MW> Engineering in Garberville, CA.

Lets not get silly, here.  I don't want them that badly. ;-)

Cheers,
.....G


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1068 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: electric scooters
Message-ID: <a92_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 13:28:22 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 1
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

You also may contact Alternative Energy Eng. of (un)Real Goods


From Leroy.Ikerd@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1069 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Leroy.Ikerd
From: Leroy.Ikerd@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Leroy Ikerd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <a93_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 7 Aug 94 13:07:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

WG>   With all the talk of low power DC computers...I was wondering
  >   if anyone might be able to outline a procedure to convert a
  >   plain-jane PC compatible to 12V DC (CPU unit only - I know I'd
  >   need one of Elvis' DC monitors).  The machine I want to convert
  >   is a 486/33, if that matters.

Bill, I know there is probably a better way, but I personaly use a small
inverter (240 watt) to run a small lap top and a printer off of my car
bat. It has enough capacity to run a flourescent light at the same time.
You might need a slighty larger inverter for a 486 with everything
connected, but with just the cpu running I think a 240 watt inverter
would be ok. Leroy in N. Ca.

 * SLMR 2.1a * All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1070 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EV's 3 of 4
Message-ID: <a94_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 22:23:36 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

I don't see why it should cost that much, unless you're figuring PV powered
charging stations (a personal dream). All costs drop in time, anyway, once a
technology is implemented. (Maybe not all?)


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1071 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wasted power
Message-ID: <a95_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 22:28:16 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ron Perepolkin
Status: O
X-Status: 

This touches a nerve. Down here in Redway the local powers that be wish to form
a lighting district and fill Redwood Drive w/ street lights. The idea has much
local opposition, and some say they will sue to stop it. Dare i say it? More
power to 'em.


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1072 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: COMPANY COMIN'
Message-ID: <a98_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:30:30 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Also, many PIR (passive infra-red detectors) are easily modified to run on 12
vdc; usually there is a transformer on the pcb that can be removed and the
connections bridged, the main trouble I've had with mine is changing
sensitivity with changing temps.  the output can be used to operate darn near
anythinglike relay, light, I>R> sender ala tv control.  Also, there is a whole
sub-industry - one producer, ripstopper, makes all kinda sensors that will beep
y'r beeper, etc.


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1073 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: A/c "Help"
Message-ID: <a99_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:42:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

Wood drying kilns use an Air Conditioner to squeeze the water out of the air
(cool air holds less water,) then warm the air for the drying, and recirculate
the air so they don' have to keep processing more moist air.  With 85% humidity
you prob'ly don't get lotsa efficiency out of a swamp cooler anyhow, , , , 


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1074 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: LUBRICANTS FOR FUEL EFFIC
Message-ID: <a9a_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 19:24:36 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Bill Basford
Status: O
X-Status: 

Generally, in piston aircraft lotsa testing, for the supposedly embedded teflon
in the metal pores, for tbo (time between overhauls) have been negative.  Some
temporary improvement was noted in power, presumably due to decreased friction
from the vehicle used to carry the teflon and ":clean" the pores of the engine.
 One guy lost his engine and subsequently severely damaged his plane from too
much of the stuff collecting around his oil intake.  Not a national brand of
the stuff.  Basically the powdered teflon was being bought from du-pont, who
stopped selling the stuff to companies doing this sort of thing with it in the
U.S. and I believe most of them now get it in Canada or through some under the
table deal with another user, and there are engine overhaul shops who still
swear by it.


From Garth.Epling@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1075 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Garth.Epling
From: Garth.Epling@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Garth Epling)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: AC/DC TV
Message-ID: <a9b_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 00:16:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

is there any such thing as a 5 to 9" AC/DC TV that only thakes about 1 to 2
amps an hour??
if there is I want to know about it.
-Garth


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1076 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <a9c_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 14:13:42 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

I've had good results using automotive mufflers, sometimes buried in mineral
earth so as not to initiate an underground fire.  'Course they don't las more
than two or three years buried, but they are definitely LOTS quieter;


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1077 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: telephone
Message-ID: <a9d_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 14:16:54 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gale; check out the cordless phone; many get phone installed to a box or & out
by the road and improve the antenna system to get a longer range.  Local guy
here sells the whole setup; Nat Childs , Childs Play, 665 Redwood Dr.,
Garberville, CA, 95542 , 707-923-2934.


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:45:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1078 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <a9e_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 20:28:50 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

Yes, Onan makes an LP genset; so does Kohler. I have installed and maintained
both and they are dependable .


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1079 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Message-ID: <a9f_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 17:16:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> I would assume this would also work with propane. If so, do you have
-> anything put down on paper in greater detail as to how this is done?

Works fine with anything flammable that will squirt out of a bottle. <Grin>
I've even run a Briggs and Stratton off of hydrogen that way. (But not for long
because it's hard to collect enough of the stuff.)

Nope, nothing on paper.  It's all stored in volatile RAM between my ears, and
current I/O technology is via this keyboard.

-> Pictures would help for those of us who are easily confused !!!

I certainly can identify with that!  Unfortunately, this medium does not lend
itself to detailed pix.  Maybe someday....

-> have such a "instruction sheet", how can we get ahold of it ??? It seems
-> this would be a good subject for a book or booklet. Should have plenty of
-> buyers !!!

Nah.  Life's too short and I'm too near the end of it to care to get involved
with "Desktop Publishing" <Grin>

All this info was either given to me freely or developed by my tinkering, so
I'll be glad to pass it along for the same price I have invested, but I aint
gonna get involved in product liability or user acceptability issues. <Grin>

I'll be glad to answer any questions on the subject and try to clarify any
confusion.  (Subject to the approval of our INTERNET know-it-alls, who I will
NOT debate the subject with.)

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:45:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1080 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <aa0_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 17:45:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: David Lagzdin
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
-> those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp

Somewhat oversimplified but you're certainly on the right track!  Actually, the
negative current requirements are such that a small invertor circuit, (as
simple as a single IC chip) can handle the minus supply.

The voltage tolerances are somewhat tighter than some I saw quoted on an
earlier message though.....  The 12 volt supply should remain above 11.4 volts
and below 12.6, and the 5 volt supply should not exceed 4.5 to 5.3 volts for
proper operation. (The five volt supply may need a pretty hefty heat sink
because current demand may be in excesss of ten to fifteen amps and dropping
the full 6-7 volts across a three terminal regulator will drive it into
thermal shutdown almost immediately.)

The "power-good" line should come high approximately 200 Msec after five volts
has reached nominal regulation.  Easily handled by a suitable RC network or a
555 timer chip.

It's a perfectly reasonable and relatively simple project, though I'd recommend
doing some developemental work on an old XT clone..... <Grin> rather than on a
386-DX.

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1081 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest
Message-ID: <aa1_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 17:55:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Greg Lewis
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same errors
-> I will not bother with the users group at all.

Bye Greg!  (Don't let the door hit you in the butt.)

-> say.  It might be your loss.

We won't hold our breath.....

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1082 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: usenet link
Message-ID: <aa2_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 18:06:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> BTW, Elvis, did you get my netmail about the monitors? It went out around a
-> time when my host's host's host was having a temper fit and I lost a few
-> days' mail.

Don'tcha jus' HATE it when that happens!?  <Grin>

Yeah, Ian, I got your netmail and replied in kind.  Din'tcha get it?  I thought
you'd jus' fergot!

I'm reserving two monitors for you if'n you want 'em.

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1083 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: QUIET
Message-ID: <aa3_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 18:20:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Sounds sensible to me, as that's the only way I've heard of NG being
-> supplied.

That's because you don't live on top of where it's produced. <Grin>

Where I live, DEEP south Texas, we have Nat Gas almost everywhere (Except right
where *I* am) and as far as I can tell it's never turned off!  (High preessure
gas lines cris-cross everywhichway around here and a major terminal feeding a
gasfired plant is about a mile behind me.)

I'm sure during a natural disaster such as an earthquake turning off the gas is
a high priority item, but hurricanes don't generally wreck the underground
infrastructure so we don't seem to address that problem around here.

At one time many of the local people had Natural Gas air-conditioning fed from
"free" taps on the high pressure lines.  Most of them powered by four-banger
Hercules engines.  For us, it's a "natural" situation.....

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1084 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Gas eng.
Message-ID: <aa4_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 18:46:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Larry D. Yuengel
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> whether there is an national association of gas modifiers?

There's a national association of everything else so I'd assume so, but *I*
certainly don't know.

MY question is why would anyone want to know?

^..^


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1085 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-397-6-0!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SNATCHING INDUCTION F
Message-ID: <aa5_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 18:51:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> loudspeaker.  While most of those who are off-the-grid probably don't live
-> close enough to a broadcast transmitter to get the power required it's still
-> an interesting concept.

Years ago, in the days of the megawatt XERF radio station at Acuna Mex (across
the river from Del Rio)  Half the shacks over there were powered from the vast
amounts of RF available.  (and roofed with the 14"-16" aluminum transcription
disks used to transport the "word" across the river for broadcast.)

-> Well, anyway to ME it was an interesting concept.

To about 10 thousand Mexicans it was a way of LIFE!  A gift from "god."  (It
was after all a religious station......snrk.)

^..^


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1086 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <a64_9408161030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 18:57:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Allen J. Filson
Status: O
X-Status: 

The difference between true South and magnetic south will differ 
depending where you are geographically.  In Seattle, it is 22 and 1/2
degrees one direction.  Somewhere around Chicago it is zero, and East
of there it is off in the other direction.  Most good  maps will tell
you.  Any sporting goods store that sell compasses or a satellite dish store
would be able to tell you for your area.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1087 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: No Opposing Viewpoints Please
Message-ID: <a65_9408161030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Aug 94 19:13:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

Not that Don needs any defenders, but please allow me to post the
following points.
1.  There is already a sci.energy newsgroup.
2.  This newsgroup is for alternative energy.
3.  The two are, it seems, fundamentally at odds.
4.  Atomic energy cannot be termed renewable except for
    posibly breeder reactors.
5.  Don is the moderator.


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:46:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1088 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Biofuels
Message-ID: <a7d_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 06:15:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dennis Keim
Status: O
X-Status: 

DK>TL>If you MUST use a fossil fueled generator, do go diesel. Then you
DK>TL>have the option of going soydiesel, getting (sort of) off the fossil
DK>TL>fuel nasties and cutting your emissions impressively (plus it is
DK>TL>generally safer to handle).

DK>Seems like I recall that castor bean oil is good in the fuel tank or the
DK>oil sump of Diesel units.  Other vegetable oils work too I understand.
DK>I'm not sure what the problems all are.  There are probably some.

Soydiesel is gaining ground here for farm use and some construction
use. It has not seen much use in city busses as it has in other areas
primarily because there is only one city with diesel busses in the whole
state !!! The soydiesel is made here instate by an agricultural coop
which further enhances it's desirability for instate use. Also, the fuel
injection pumps are not adversly affected as they are by de-sulphured
fuel which has been an economical disaster for this area.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:46:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1089 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NiFe batteries
Message-ID: <a7e_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 05:53:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

CO> MW> I have a 1000 amp hour at 12v bank of nickel-irons, myself, although
CO> MW> they are not yet installed.

CO> GC> Where would one obtain these beauties?

CO>I came by mine through a neighbor who works for the rail road as a signal
CO>maintainer.  It seems that the RR uses them as backup power
CO>for the signals at crossings and periodically replaces them
CO>as preventative maintenance.  They have to PAY to dispose
CO>of them!  I merely mentioned to him that I'd like to have
CO>some and he showed up the next day with a pickup load.  He
CO>still asks me from time to time if I'd like to have some
CO>more.

I have several friends who work for Burlington Northern both as train
crew and road crew. (there is a main line near here as well as 3 crew
change stations within a 2 1/2 hour drive. The main haul is coal from
Wyoming to the east ) I will be getting intouch with them to get as many
of the batteries as possible !!!  Heck. I have a 2 ton truck with a 16
foot bed and could haul about 10 ton of them to a load. Might even be
able to under cut their disposal costs and make my expenses back !!!

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:46:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1090 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Geothermal
Message-ID: <a7f_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 06:02:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 34
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

CO> JB> I have read of ways to produce power very cheap and clean. I dont know
CO> JB> the initial cost.  I have seen plans for drilling into the earth very
CO> JB> deep, (I dont think this requires more than 3,000 feet) and sinking
CO> JB> two pipes. One is used to pump water into the hole, gravity can serve
CO> JB> as power, the water gets very hot as it drops and becomes steam and
CO> JB> comes back in the other pipe.  Is there any place where this is being
CO> JB> done in a practical way?

CO>Geothermal power?  Sure, it's being used in lots of remote
CO>locations.  The trouble with geothermal is that you've got
CO>to drill into a very hot formation (like an underground
CO>volcano) for it to be practical so it's very location
CO>dependent.  In most locations, the bottom hole temperature
CO>at 3000' would only be on the order of 60-70 degrees F. -
CO>not hot enough to do the job.

CO>I have drilled oil wells here in Oklahoma where you
CO>couldn't handle the bits when they were pulled from the
CO>hole because they were too hot.

I worked for two years as a water well driller with a cable tool rig. We
drilled many hot water wells and as you probably know, cable tools are
not deep hole rigs if it can be helped. One notable well was at a golf
course in Hot Springs, SD (wonder how the town got that name 8-} ). The
hole was 170 feet and the water came out at 170 degrees !!! They had to
cool the water to use it for washing dishes !!! I probably drilled 50
wells in and around town that were hot, at least 100 degrees. For
reasons I have never known, geo-thermal heating is rarely used there. In
Phillip SD, however, Geo thermal is now probably the predominant heating
source. Their wells are artesian and usualy run about 500-1000 feet
deep. I drilled one there with an Oregon cable rig that had an 18" bore
and a depth of 720 feet, my biggest hole. Took a few days, though. 8-)

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:46:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1091 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Ideas For Work At Home
Message-ID: <a80_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 06:11:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Julie Seberry
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC> -=> Quoting Julie Seberry to All <=-

 JS> Hi. I need to earn at least just a small amount of money at
 JS> home. Has anyone got any new ideas, besides babysitting,
 JS> which I now do. I like it, but I would like to do something
 JS> with more flexible hours, perhaps at night after all my
 JS> kids are asleep. ANY ideas would be welcome. Thanks. Julie
 JS> Seberry.

You obviously have a computer to work with. You could compile a library
of sources and information from echos like this and offer that info as a
sort of "lay consultant" to folks looking for info. You could charge a
moderate fee to folks who do not have access to echos such as this. It
is a case of knowledge obtained at relatively low cost that is valuable
to folks looking for that info.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 17 22:46:14 EDT 1994
Article: 1092 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: milk jug salvage
Message-ID: <a81_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 22:13:46 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking for methods, techniques, or just wild ideas for salvaging the HDPE
in milk jugs. I want a method for converting the jugs into cylyndrical form of
from .25" to .50" diameter to be forced by high temperature gasses down a tube
of correspnding diameter. said tube to have longitudinal spairal grooves to
impart a spinning motion to the plastic cylinder. 
  Yes, the product is bullets for use in practice which would be cheap,
relatively easily made (preferably an in home process) and non-lethal. 
This would appear to be on-topic as it is a non polluting reuse of waste
material. 


From jclewin@mtu.edu Wed Aug 17 22:46:15 EDT 1994
Article: 1093 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!isclient.merit.edu!msuinfo!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: jclewin@mtu.edu (JEFFREY C. LEWIN)
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Followup-To: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Date: 16 Aug 1994 14:39:21 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <32r14p$cpn@biosrv1.bio>
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com><CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <870@solar.win.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: biosrv1.bio.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:114330 misc.rural:11240 alt.energy.renewable:1093 sci.energy:24212
Status: O
X-Status: 

John A. Stanley (jstanley@solar.win.net) wrote:
:  
: In article <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>, 
: >>used for legal purposes. Is that true?
: >
: >Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
: >require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.
: 
: 89 Grand!!! For a machine that boils water and condenses it? Bought
: any nice bridges in NYC lately? 
The original post said a 200 gallon per hour...  A new 10 gallon per
hour still runs 8 grand.... And that is just for the still, don't include
the automatic controls, storage tank, flush kits, etc.  The price is
high due to coatings on the lines, pressure ratings, etc.  Oh, and that
is for a steam powered still...  They must have a hell of an electric bill.

jclewin@mtu.edu
Jeff Lewin
Dept. Biol. Sci.
Mich. Tech. Univ.
Houghton, MI.


: 
: --
: John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net
: If I were a name, could my letters number a hundred?
: More likely coarse and gutteral, one syllable Anglo-Saxon.
:                                         -The Minutemen


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Wed Aug 17 22:46:15 EDT 1994
Article: 1094 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ideas For Work At Home
Date: 16 Aug 1994 19:25:23 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <32r3r3$9op@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <a80_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have seen several books at the bookstore which are dedicated to work-at-home
people. Some of them are like "500-ways you can make money with your computer
at home".

Just watch out for some of those schemes published on the net, when they are
too good to be true, they are!

Steen


From etoler@csn.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1095 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!etoler
From: etoler@csn.org (Eric Toler)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisla
Message-ID: <CunD4K.EsJ@csn.org>
Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net> <6.306.1809.0NAEA7D5@spacebbs.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 21:31:32 GMT
Lines: 9
Status: O
X-Status: 

Efficiency numbers are important, but the true measure is energy per unit
distance (including real world things like acceleration and stopping,
etc.).  Battery only EVs still have to use proportionally LOTS more energy
because they have to haul the energy around in the form of heavy
batteries.  Design for minimization of irrecoverable losses (air drag,
road drag, and less than perfect regen braking) rather than just
efficiency numbers.

Eric Toler


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:17 EDT 1994
Article: 1096 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <b38_9408161904@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 4 Aug 94 15:58:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 

Actually, I believe Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has
published a paper on how EVs could produce more pollution than internal
combustion vehicles.  Not someone I would call a crackput.
Technology applied without intelligence can cause myraid problems.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1097 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-343-70-0!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <b40_9408161904@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 16:48:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > I, for one, would dearly love to have your "raw materials"
 > you would
 > feed the digestor. (I am assuming you are largely interested
 > in disposal
 > with an energy payback being secondary) It would sure save me
 > time and
 > money to have the stuff to spread on my land to improve it's
 > productivity. 
Only a small portion of the manure is turned into gas.  The output
of the digester is still good fertilizer.  The digester will remove
a fair amount of some of the elements, but will in turn alter some
of the other elements into forms more available to plants.  So it's
a pretty good deal all around.


From Larry.Gowdy@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:19 EDT 1994
Article: 1098 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-352-111-0!Larry.Gowdy
From: Larry.Gowdy@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Larry Gowdy)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching Induction F
Message-ID: <b41_9408161904@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 06:27:03 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
Lines: 29
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Marc Loon
Status: O
X-Status: 


 ML> : There are some people in Sweden that has been found
 ML> : "stealing" induction from the high voltage power lines that has
 ML> : been crossing their grounds.
 ML> Is there some article about this somewhere? Where can I find out some
 ML> details?

        We had a similar situation here. Owning land with big power
 lines right next to it, there were some instances of pipes and
 underground wiring becoming charged, and would give you a good kick
 whenever they weren't grounded well.
        We moved before I had the chance to experiment further with it,
 but it appears that it wouldn't be too difficult to get a decent supply
 of electricity this way. You would of course probably have to be within
 around 100 feet of the power line to get much of a result unless you
 had a really big grid.
        I had thought it would be practical to use the low amperage
 induction to charge batteries for a DC powered home. The input may not
 be much. but it would be continual.
        I wouldn't purposely seek to buy land like that again though,
 since the noise and health hazards far outweigh the free energy. Our
 latest land doesn't have a powerline within 1000', and its just a low
 voltage one at that.
        Looks like with all the microwaves and all zipping through us as
 is, there should be a way to tap into it as well.


... This tagline is SHAREWARE!  To register, send me $10
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From tgray@igc.apc.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1099 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!apc!igc!tgray
From: tgray@igc.apc.org (tgray@igc.apc.org)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: --Kenetech Works on WY Permits
Message-ID: <b48_9408161904@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 8 Aug 94 11:39:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: helix.uucp =FidoNet/DharmaNet= Seattle (206)783-6368
Lines: 99
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

-=> Note:
Copied (from: sci.environment) by Scott Parks using timEd.

From: Tom Gray <tgray@igc.apc.org>
Date: 08 Aug 94 14:39 PDT
Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway <notes@igc.apc.org>

/* Written  2:30 PM  Aug  8, 1994 by tgray in igc:energy.news */

KENETECH WORKING ON PERMITS
FOR WYOMING PROJECT
 
     Kenetech Windpower is moving forward with land-use permitting
with the federal Bureau of Land Management (BLM) for its wind
project in Wyoming with an ultimate potential of 500 MW in capacity
(see Wind Energy Weekly #582, 1/31/94).
 
     Scoping for the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) was
completed in late February, according to Walt George, district
realty specialist in the Rawlins, Wyo., BLM District Office.  Since
then several team meetings have been held to finalize the
specifications, which George expects will be done within "the next
couple of weeks."  The EIS is being prepared by Mariah Associates
of Laramie, Wyo.
 
     Thirty-six comments were received in response to the permit
application, George said.  Twenty-six supported the project or
supplied information as to local requirements or notification of
facilities such as buried power lines.  Two comments voiced
concerns about public access to federal lands, and one noted the
possibility of erosion and noxious weed invasions as a result of
construction disturbance to the land.  Three covered various
environmental issues, and four raised the subject of avian
mortality.  In all, George said, 20 percent of the comments
mentioned avian collisions as a potential problem.
 
     George said he feels all of the issues brought up in the first
round of comments are relatively straightforward and common to all
land use permit applications, with the exception of avian
mortality.  His district office has done extensive literature
searches seeking information relating to avian studies, and he has
contacted sources in California in his search for information, but
most studies are restricted in their scope, George said.  An
informal panel of biologists from the Wyoming Department of Fish
and Game and the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) is working
with a consulting firm to collect and analyze scientific data on
avian patterns applicable to Wyoming.  George emphasized that BLM
is working closely with USFWS to study the avian mortality
situation.
 
     Of a total of 62,000 acres that Kenetech hopes to utilize, 10
percent is state land, 28 percent is federal, and the remainder is
private, George said.  Six or seven private landowners are
involved, he added, and all have reached easement and access
agreements with Kenetech.  The state and county permitting process
will begin once the EIS has been issued by the BLM.  A draft EIS
will be presented this fall for review and comment.
 
     The first phase of the project, sited halfway between Rawlins
and Laramie, will consist of 70 MW, although the EIS covers
permitting for 500 MW.  By building in stages, Kenetech and the
utilities involved will be able to make necessary modifications as
the project progresses, George said.  Also under scrutiny will be
the effect on local and migratory bird populations.  Kenetech
should be able to begin construction next year.
 
_______________________________________________________________________________

The American Wind Energy Association (AWEA) has authorized me to offer
an electronic edition of its newsletter, _Wind Energy Weekly_, from
which the above article is excerpted, at no cost.

For those of you who have not previously seen excerpts from back issues
on Usenet or Bitnet, the _Weekly_ reports on the outlook for renewable
energy, energy-related environmental issues, and renewable energy
legislation in addition to wind industry trade news.  The electronic
edition normally runs about 10kb in length.

If you would like a free electronic subscription, send me an e-mail
request.  Please include information on your position, organization,
and reason for interest in the publication.

If the _Weekly_ is not quite for you, please pass this message on to
someone else you think might be interested.  Thanks.

In addition to the _Weekly_, the American Wind Energy Association offers a
variety of publications on wind energy, including technical literature,
audio/visual resources, information for the prospective residential wind
turbine owner, and more. 

To learn more about this clean, renewable alternative to conventional 
electric power plants, send any message to:

		windpubs-info@igc.apc.org

You will receive an automatic reply.
*******************************************************************
Tom Gray                                 EcoNet/PeaceNet: tgray@igc
Internet/Bitnet: tgray@igc.apc.org            UUCP: uunet!cdp!tgray


From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:46:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1100 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 17 Aug 1994 02:55:48 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <32ru7k$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>   <32pb6a$6u7@pdx1.world.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Barry Smith (barry@bluesky.com) wrote:
: In article <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net>
: r_steer@cpcug.digex.net (Randy Steer) writes:

: > but after you add it all up, EVs in 
: > any place that gets a lot of its energy from fossil fuesl will cause more 
: > total pollution than ICEs.
: > 
: > The location of pollution counts, though.  In LA, pollution generated 
: > outside the basin will not be nearly as problematic for air quality as 
: > pollution generated on the city streets.  That's why they'd like EVs, 
: > even if it means that total national pollution would increase slightly.

: Before you pontificate, you might try getting some actual data. About
: three weeks ago, I posted a lengthy comparison of EV and ULEV
: (California-defined ultra-low emission vehicle, _gasoline_ powered)
: total emissions for a 100,000 mile lifetime, data obtained directly
: from the California Air Resources Board.

: Simply put, you're wrong.  _Way_ wrong.  The CARB conclusion was that,
: in the South Coast Air Basin (LA), EVs were better than an order of
: magnitude fewer emissions compared to (non-existent) ULEVs, and three
: orders of magnitude better than the average car on the street.  And,
: yes, the comparison included out-of-basin sources, and battery
: recycling emissions.

: Go ahead, give them a call.  They're nice people, and would love to
: send you as much information as you could wish for.


: Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research
: barry@bluesky.com


They may be nice people and all that, but their conclusions fly in the 
face of fairly recent data published by the IEEE.

I guess that I would want to see a breakdown of CARB's assumptions and 
math before concluding anything about the validity of their assertions.

                                     Harry C.






From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:46:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1101 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SNATCHING INDUCTION F
Date: 17 Aug 1994 03:26:38 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <32s01e$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <aa5_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Elvis Hargrove (Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

: Years ago, in the days of the megawatt XERF radio station at Acuna Mex (across
: the river from Del Rio)  Half the shacks over there were powered from the vast
: amounts of RF available.  (and roofed with the 14"-16" aluminum transcription
: disks used to transport the "word" across the river for broadcast.)

: -> Well, anyway to ME it was an interesting concept.

: To about 10 thousand Mexicans it was a way of LIFE!  A gift from "god."  (It
: was after all a religious station......snrk.)


Today, the FCC takes a very, very, VERY dim few on this type of
activity, and so do the radio station operators.

In doing this, you selectively absorb from the broadcaster's radiated
power and antenna field pattern. In paractical terms, you absorb part
of the broadcast and detract from the station's coverage area.

Legally, this is viewed as malicious disruption of communications,
a federal crime, with draconic penalties if you are caught and 
convicted.  Here, the FCC plays hardball, and fines can easily
reach $10,000 per day plus jail.  (When you read FCC rules, they seem 
to have some liking for the $10,000/per day fine, because it seem to
apply for almost every violation imaginable.) I must admit, it does
get your attention!

You should be away that broadcasters are required to periodically
check their radiated patterns (weekly, and in more detail, monthly).
When something suddenly shows up that puts a 'notch' in the pattern,
the stations are quick to track it down and make a report to the 
FCC, who then handles the follow-up.  I know, since I worked my
way through college in this type of work (broadcasting, not stealing
power!), and I ran into one problem of this type.

This is a very sensitive area, since someone close to the station's
antenna field can produce a signigicant disruption of the radiation
pattern, why extracting only a relatively few Watts of power. This
is particlarly true in the case of multi-tower directional broadcast
arrays. Worse still, in theory, the entire pattern of the array can
be shifted, potentially causing the station to interfere with others
on the same wavelength.

On the other hand, I know of no case where the FCC would become involved
with the theft of power by induction coupling with a power line, unless
those activities in some way generated interference to communications.
While still theft, it simply does not fall under FCC jurisdiction.





From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 17 22:46:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1102 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Totally Free Power
Date: 17 Aug 1994 04:04:59 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I haven't ever seen or heard discussion of the following as a power
source, although it is free, legal, and universally available.
If it was been discussed before, I appologize for the repetition.

It's something called the Atmospheric Potential Gradient.  In essence,
its is the voltage or potential difference that exists between the
Earth's surface and its Ionosphere.  While I'm not sure that a useful
level of power can be extracted, some of you may find interesting 
applications for this, and, if nothing else, have fun playing with
it.

Way back in ancient times, when I was 12, I managed to install a 
televison antenna on the roof of our home in New Jersey.  When
I had connected a typical piece of twin-lead to it, and ran it 
down the side of the house, I noticed that I could repeatedly get
a spark from the wire when I connected it to a grounded lightning
arrester.  I also received several shocks in the process. At first,
I assumed that it was from some sort of power line leakage, but
it turned out to be a somewhat more fundamental source of energy.

For some reason, I don't remember why, I decided to check it out 
with one of those little neon-bulb type circuit testers, and,
surprise, there was enough voltage to light the neon bulb.  An
even bigger surprise was that only one electrode of the bulb
was lit, indicating that the power source was direct current,
and therefore could not possibly be originating from the power
lines. This mystified me.

It was some years later that I found the actual source.

During a college project, I was researching atmospheric electrical
phenomena. While reading a monograph entitled "Thunderstorm
Electricity" I learned that a potential gradient exists in Earth's
atmosphere, between the Ionosphere and the Earth surface; and that
this could be viewed as a large resistor with hundreds of
thousands of Amps flowing through it at all times.  

In simpler terms, if you put a conductive collector up in the
air, and run an insulated conductor down to the ground, a DC
current flow will exist in the wire.  You are effectively tapping 
into free, atmospheric electricity.  Height determines voltage, 
while the size of the collector determines practical current 
limitations. The energy flow is constant (or very nearly so) and 
while small, free.

With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!

It you can dream up a use for this curious effect, go to it. 
Even if you can't, it might be a fun thing for some of you to
experiment with.

Have fun.

                                      Harry C.


ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
    through use of a collector on top the mast.



From barry@bluesky.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1103 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!usenet
From: barry@bluesky.com (Barry Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 17 Aug 1994 06:21:23 GMT
Organization: Blue Sky Research
Lines: 23
Sender: barry@bluesky.bluesky.com
Message-ID: <32sa93$nmc@pdx1.world.net>
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us> 
 <32pb6a$6u7@pdx1.world.net>  <32ru7k$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: barry.bluesky.com
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.1@barry.bluesky.com
X-Authenticated: barry on POP host bluesky.bluesky.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32ru7k$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:

> They may be nice people and all that, but their conclusions fly in the 
> face of fairly recent data published by the IEEE.
> 
> I guess that I would want to see a breakdown of CARB's assumptions and 
> math before concluding anything about the validity of their assertions.

I haven't seen the data to which you refer; if you provide
a reference, I'd like to review it.  The folks at CARB are pretty
good at backing up their figures; I posted only the conclusion,
the report it came from was a hundred pages or so.  Do give them
a call, they're used to skeptics.

Related topic, have you seen the RMI Supercars paper, by Lovins, et.al?
It's available from the CREST WWW server at http://solstice.crest.org;
well worth reading.  (Supposed to be reissued in popular form in The
Atlantic Monthly soon.)


Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research
barry@bluesky.com


From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1104 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AC/DC TV
Date: 17 Aug 1994 10:39:33 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408170333.A17376-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <a9b_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 14 Aug 1994, Garth Epling wrote:

> is there any such thing as a 5 to 9" AC/DC TV that only thakes about 1 to 2
> amps an hour??
> if there is I want to know about it.
> -Garth

    Good Question.....I've surveyed the various TV's I have around. My 
12" Zenith AC/DC claims about 15 watts, the 5" color Realistic here uses 
45w and a 20 inch RCA Color is 105w.
     I'd really like to know what are the most efficient televisions out 
there myself. Sounds like we need a good color LCD TV....
    DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1105 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Was Re:Solar Air Conditioner, now SF Airport lighting?
Date: 17 Aug 1994 10:39:47 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 24
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408170312.A17376-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <igt.85.2E501264@wimsey.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Ian G. Theaker wrote:

> Other issues should also be considered, such as colour rendition index and 
> colour temperature.  *Major* (>40%) energy savings can be had by delamping and 
> installing specular reflectors.  In particular, they should probably install 
> parabolic lenses ("eggcrates") to avoid glare issues with the CRTs.
> 
> What this points out is the need for a good lighting design, considering both 
> energy & lighting quality, by a qualified professional.  If you mention that 
> 3-4 year paybacks are typical, given utility incentive programs like Power 
> Smart here in BC, they might sit up and take some notice.

      When they "upgraded" their lighting they put in recessed cans and 
installed 75w incandescent spotlights (probably considering glare which 
you mentioned). I'm not an expert with lighting but I think swapping out 
the incandescents for compact flourescents with reflectors will be a big 
win for these folks. Since they usually leave them on 24 hours payback 
would be real quick (months...). Looks like there's ample ventilation in 
the recessed cans. 
       DCK




From jstanley@solar.win.net Wed Aug 17 22:46:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1106 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!wariat.org!malgudi.oar.net!witch!solar!jstanley
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Message-ID: <409@solar.win.net>
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com><CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <870@solar.win.net><32r14p$cpn@biosrv1.bio>
Reply-To: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
From: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 01:44:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Lines: 23
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:114463 misc.rural:11259 alt.energy.renewable:1106 sci.energy:24228
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
In article <32r14p$cpn@biosrv1.bio>, JEFFREY C. LEWIN (jclewin@mtu.edu) writes:
>John A. Stanley (jstanley@solar.win.net) wrote:
>:  
>: In article <CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>, 
>: >>used for legal purposes. Is that true?
>: >
>: >Since this is a water distiller, then no, you do not
>: >require a license.  BTW this cost ~$89,000 new.
>: 
>: 89 Grand!!! For a machine that boils water and condenses it? Bought
>: any nice bridges in NYC lately? 
>The original post said a 200 gallon per hour...  A new 10 gallon per
>hour still runs 8 grand.... And that is just for the still, don't include
>the automatic controls, storage tank, flush kits, etc.  The price is
>high due to coatings on the lines, pressure ratings, etc.  Oh, and that
>is for a steam powered still...  They must have a hell of an electric bill.

And what a waste of electricity at that. I'm reading this thread on
alt.energy.alternative because I have a house that is completely
solar/wind powered, and largely solar heated. To use a refined
energy product like electricity to produce something so crude as
heat is foolish.

--
John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net


From bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM Wed Aug 17 22:46:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1107 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM (Bruce Carroll - Sun BOS Systems Product Assurance CONTRACTOR)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Date: 17 Aug 1994 14:00:30 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408171345.AA08901@junkyard2.East.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I too have been interested in getting this free power to 
suplement my solar panels to keep my batteries charged in 
bad weather. I first learned about this thru a N. Tesla 
experiement, Patent # 685,957, "An apparatus for the 
utilization of free energy". 

I just got back from the patent office this patent (costs $3) 
and it's pretty simple to hook up. Basically, you put a plate 
of metal up in the air as the antenna, and connect it to a smaller 
plate buried in the ground thru a condenser. You tap from either side 
of the condesner, and get free energy. The space shuttle did an 
experiement last fall (I think) where they dropped a long wire 
antenna down from the space craft. I think they generate so 
much energy that it shorted out the wire.

I would be interested in getting any info you collect, and when 
I get around to looking into this some more, I'll be glad to pass
along my findings.

Bruce Carroll




From totten@access.digex.net Wed Aug 17 22:46:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1108 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: totten@access.digex.net (Michael Totten)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Date: 17 Aug 1994 14:09:31 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 16
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408170949.A27728-0100000@access1.digex.net>
References: <32sa93$nmc@pdx1.world.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

If people have trouble accessing CREST's Solstice, try adding a / at the 
end of the address:

http://solstice.crest.org/

Michael Totten, Director
Center for Renewable Energy & Sustainable Technology
777 N. Capitol St NE, Suite 805, Wash, DC 20002
PH: (202) 289-5368 FAX: (202) 289-5354 email: totten@digex.net

On 17 Aug 1994, Barry Smith wrote:

> Related topic, have you seen the RMI Supercars paper, by Lovins, et.al?
> It's available from the CREST WWW server at http://solstice.crest.org;
> well worth reading.  (Supposed to be reissued in popular form in The
> Atlantic Monthly soon.)


From DBHolmes@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1109 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South - is it critical?
Date: 17 Aug 1994 15:15:26 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408171058.tn15588@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

M. Bishop wrote:

>I recall that a study of solar houses oriented as much as 15 degrees 
>either way of south makes little difference.  I can't find the 
>reference.  It was material from a Texas Solar Energy Society Conference.

There are several articles dealing with this issue in the Proceedings of the
American Solar Energy Society, and perhaps in Solar Today magazine. Your
recollection is good; plus or minus 15 degrees, which is equivalent to plus
or minus 1 hour, is generally not critical to good performance. There are
also text books which address this issue; for example, Ed Mazria's book on
passive solar home design, as well as others.

DBHolmes



From DBHolmes@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1110 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars battery recycling
Date: 17 Aug 1994 15:15:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 21
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408171058.tn15581@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

R. Steer wrote:
>All of the bettery technologies receiving support from the U.S. Advanced 
>Battery Consortium must have the potential to be recyclable.

Since the USABC include GM, Ford, Chrysler, and the US DOE, I would be very
surprised if they were to propose anything which required a totally new
infrasructure to handle the recycling; it's just not their nature to obsolete
their own industry and its established distribution channels. In other words,
I don't think Steer's  comment portends any reallly significant changes:

>Most electric vehicles, starting a few years, won't be using lead-acid 
>batteries, so the old recycling infrastructure will have to be adapted.

Sears, and similar mass-merchandizers, will continue to be the biggest
sellers of replacement batteries, no matter what chemistry the batteries use.
Hence, these same stores will be the source of most recycled batteries, and
the trucks which bring the new batteries will take away the old trade-ins,
just as they do now with lead acid batteries.

DBHolmes



From DBHolmes@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1111 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: cost of PV arrays
Date: 17 Aug 1994 15:17:07 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 13
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408171058.tn15595@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

D. Kulha wrote:

>they were predicting 50 cent/watt PV arrarys by 1986

And "they" was our own U.S. D.O.E!!!! They same group that continues to spend
far more on fission and fusion R&D than on "alternative energy resources."

Go figure!

DBHolmes





From rabii@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1112 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legislatio
Message-ID: <rabiiCuoqq9.JAK@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2b3_9408071048@psybbs.durham.nc.us>   <32pb6a$6u7@pdx1.world.net> <32ru7k$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 15:22:56 GMT
Lines: 38
Status: O
X-Status: 

conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) writes:
>: Go ahead, give them a call.  They're nice people, and would love to
>: send you as much information as you could wish for.


>: Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research
>: barry@bluesky.com


>They may be nice people and all that, but their conclusions fly in the 
>face of fairly recent data published by the IEEE.

>I guess that I would want to see a breakdown of CARB's assumptions and 
>math before concluding anything about the validity of their assertions.

>                                     Harry C.




To get your info write to:
  
  California Air Resources Baord
  Public Information Office
  PO Box 2815
  Sacramento, CA  95812-2815

or call:

  916-322-2990



-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From mshadowfax@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1113 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Date: 17 Aug 1994 12:55:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32tfd9$dv7@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H
Conover) writes:

"With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!

It you can dream up a use for this curious effect, go to it. 
Even if you can't, it might be a fun thing for some of you to
experiment with."


     My greatest concern, being in the particular area of the country that
I am (near Tampa, Fl.) is the chance of this kind of a collector
attracting REALLY-high voltage energy - lightning. This area has the
highest-lightning strike count in the country which mean plenty of ions to
play with, but also lots of random discharges to contend with that could
be very dangerous.
     An interesting idea though, to say the least. Post your results Harry
- you've got my attention.

Shadowfax




From mshadowfax@aol.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1114 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wind Power Question (towers)
Date: 17 Aug 1994 12:57:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <32tfh2$e02@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Okay - time for me to ask a question or two.

     I'm getting ready to put up the first of several small wind turbines
to back up my solar array and I have yet to find a decent explanation on
how to erect the pole/turbine without killing myself or destroying the
equipment in the process.
     Basically I'm looking at a 3' 3-blade mini (300w) from Southwest
Windpower that mounts on a schedule 40 pipe. I only plan on putting it up
20-40 feet to keep it relatively unobtrusive and to take advantage of a
local venturi-effect created by a nearby shopping mall and local
landscaping.
     How do I get it up there, what is the best way to secure it and is
there anything in particular I might need/want to be aware of. Also - once
it's up there how can I get it down in the event I should need to. Any
input will be appreciated.


Shadowfax





From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1115 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisla
Message-ID: <hatunenCuovJG.DrL@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <32ov1q$82e@news1.digex.net> <6.306.1809.0NAEA7D5@spacebbs.com> <CunD4K.EsJ@csn.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 17:06:51 GMT
Lines: 35
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <CunD4K.EsJ@csn.org>, Eric Toler <etoler@csn.org> wrote:
>Efficiency numbers are important, but the true measure is energy per unit
>distance (including real world things like acceleration and stopping,
>etc.).  Battery only EVs still have to use proportionally LOTS more energy
>because they have to haul the energy around in the form of heavy
>batteries.  Design for minimization of irrecoverable losses (air drag,
>road drag, and less than perfect regen braking) rather than just
>efficiency numbers.
>
>Eric Toler

With regenerative braking, the weight of the vehicle is no longer a
consideration, since the energy required to get up to speed is the
energy regained during braking. But more *power* is required to attain
the same accelerations.

Friction losses are minor for even heavy batteries, and air resistance
isn't affected at all, unless the necessary size or shape of the vehicle
of the vehicle is a consideration.

I once drove a 1960 VW Beetle from Louisville Kentucky to Montreal,
pulling a 4x6 enclosed UHaul trailer. Even on toll roads and freeways,
top speed was about 45 mph, right at the gear shift point, so I felt
like I rowed that damn trailer to Canada. After unloading the trailer
in Montreal, I drove it back to New York state (to save a heavy
international return fee). I was astonished to find that I could
accelerate better (even for a VW Beetle), but that my top speed was
still 45 mph. It seems my top speed was established by the shape of the
trailer, not its weight.

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From hatunen@netcom.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1116 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Message-ID: <hatunenCuovwG.Eqp@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 17:14:39 GMT
Lines: 47
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>,
Harry H Conover <conover@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>I haven't ever seen or heard discussion of the following as a power
>source, although it is free, legal, and universally available.
>If it was been discussed before, I appologize for the repetition.
>
>It's something called the Atmospheric Potential Gradient.  In essence,
>its is the voltage or potential difference that exists between the
>Earth's surface and its Ionosphere.  While I'm not sure that a useful
>level of power can be extracted, some of you may find interesting 
>applications for this, and, if nothing else, have fun playing with
>it.

[...]

>With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
>70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
>but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
>suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
>collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!

[...]

>ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
>    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
>    through use of a collector on top the mast.

The electrical gradient it quite real, but it is a voltage gradient.
Any attempt to use a conductor with a low enough load to serve any
useful purpose will alter the surrounding field by bringing the ground
potential up to the height of your "antenna". The neon lamp only
registers because neon lamps have a very high impedance. Probably ditto
for your voltmeter. Any shock is about the same as the spark you get
from shuffling across a carpet on a day of low humidity and touching a
light switch.

I seriously doubt that you could develop even the small current
required to charge even a small battery, even on a trickle basis. And
you'll have a real problem on your hands when a storm moves in (maybe
you could recharge the battery during a storm :-).

-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1117 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-351-299-2!Brian.Proud
From: Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Proud)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <70f_9408161633@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 06:27:12 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Here There Be Dragons... (OS/2 2.11)
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tim Mullen
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Tim,

 TM>    I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
 TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
 TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?

Yep, that and also to keep my kids from sticking just about everything they can
think of in them.

 Brian


From Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1118 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-374-1-0!Julie.Seberry
From: Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Julie Seberry)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: IDEAS FOR WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <727_9408161633@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 03:33:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Techtalk BBS, Cocoa, FL 407-635-8833
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gale, wow, that sounds like a great idea. I am REALLY new at this and have to
learn more, but I may actually do something with this idea. Thank you. If you
have any additional ideas, please don't hesitate to chat with me. Thanks again.
:>


From Derald.Martin@f50.n377.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1119 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-377-50-0!Derald.Martin
From: Derald.Martin@f50.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Derald Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <728_9408161633@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 20:53:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The GIFfer BBS, 110,000+files (813)969-1089 USR/V.FC
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ken Bridges
Status: O
X-Status: 


 AJF> opposed to the  "Magnetic South"?  I know there is a
Please PMBI. I caught this thread a little late so don't know 
whether its your original question. What's to calculate? Here are two old 
backpacker's tricks that work most of the time and produce results that are 
certainly close enough for gov't work (and close enough to get one out of 
the woods):
Assuming the sun to be shining,
1) Push a pole vertically into the ground. Any length will do but taller is 
better; mark the end of the pole's shadow furthest from the base with 
anything - rock, stick, hole, whatever. Wait. Wait some more. When tired 
waiting, wait some more. Mark the end of the pole's shadow furthest from 
the base with anything. Connect this mark with the previous mark by a 
straight line. A perpendicular bisector of that line points N/S.
   
2) Using an analog timepiece of reasonable accuracy, hold it horizontally 
so that the hour hand faces directly toward an imaginary Great Circle 
extending from horizon, through sun, through zenith to horizon. South is in 
a line having your position as origin and bisecting the arc on the watch 
face described by the hour hand and the numeral 12. Daylight Savings Time 
requires a correction because the timepiece will be "early" by one hour, 
relative to the sun.

---
 * WaveRdr 1.10 # 248 * 


From John.Draper@f412.n109.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 17 22:46:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1120 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-109-412-0!John.Draper
From: John.Draper@f412.n109.z1.fidonet.org (John Draper)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SNATCHING INDUCTION F
Message-ID: <73b_9408161633@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 18:26:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Computer Orphanage, Fort Washington, Md.
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

DD>Speaking of snatching power, when I was a kid there were a number of article
DD>in Popular Electronics and the like with plans for building radios powered b
DD>the rectified signals of nearby radio stations.  The idea was that you'd tun
DD>in the nearby transmitter and reciver enough power from its signal to power
DD>receiver tuned to another station.  These radios had enough juice to drive a
DD>loudspeaker.  While most of those who are off-the-grid probably don't live
DD>close enough to a broadcast transmitter to get the power required it's still
DD>interesting concept.

I used to work with a guy that lived about 3 miles from the transmitting
tower of an AM station with less than desirable programming.  In
addition, they caused lots of splatter and interference.  Unable to get
them to clean up their transmitter and antenna, he wound a coil on a
large plastic garbage can, full wave and tuned for their exact
frequency.  He was powering some light bulbs off of them, but he was
also causing a big shift in their antenna radiation pattern.  They
finally got their own act clean up as a result.

I've often wondered what kind of power could be obtained from a coil
designed to resonate at 60 Hertz.


From dorst@crl.com Wed Aug 17 22:46:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1121 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: dorst@crl.com (Steven J Dorst)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South Calculation
Date: 17 Aug 1994 19:39:38 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <32uhla$jgi@crl.crl.com>
References: <728_9408161633@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Derald.Martin@f50.n377.z1.fidonet.org (Derald Martin) writes:
>[intro to method of finding Solar South omitted]

>Assuming the sun to be shining,
>1) Push a pole vertically into the ground. Any length will do but taller is 
>better; mark the end of the pole's shadow furthest from the base with 
>anything - rock, stick, hole, whatever. Wait. Wait some more. When tired 
>waiting, wait some more. Mark the end of the pole's shadow furthest from 
>the base with anything. Connect this mark with the previous mark by a 
>straight line. A perpendicular bisector of that line points N/S.

This should work well, however: 
>2) Using an analog timepiece of reasonable accuracy, hold it horizontally 
>so that the hour hand faces directly toward an imaginary Great Circle 
>extending from horizon, through sun, through zenith to horizon. South is in 
>a line having your position as origin and bisecting the arc on the watch 
>face described by the hour hand and the numeral 12. Daylight Savings Time 
>requires a correction because the timepiece will be "early" by one hour, 
>relative to the sun.

This will only work if you are on the NS line within your time zone where 
solar noon is in fact local noon. However, as a hiker's replacement for a 
lost, broken, or forgotten compass, this is pretty close. Actually, in a 
previous thread, someone asked "Just how close to Solar South do you need 
to be without a SIGNIGICANT loss of energy input?" Nobody answered that 
question, and I wouldn't be surprised if this method was close enough, 
unless you insist on squeezing every last watt out of your panel or H2O 
collector.


-- 
Steven J Dorst   <dorst@crl.com>  Calling from somewhere East of Alcatraz
aka N6VMK  ==>Hey, I'm just this guy, you know?<==


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1122 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <756_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 12:38:15 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 52
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian McMinn
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (03 Aug 94) Brian McMinn wrote to All...

 BM> > Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point
 BM> > out that most of the folks here are not in the university
 BM> > environment, don't really give much of a damn if they use
 BM> > exactly the right unit expression as long as they are
 BM> > understood

 BM> I seriously doubt that Greg and I are the only ones out here
 BM> with enough understanding of physics to try to use units
 BM> correctly, so please, everybody, at least give some thought
 BM> to making your units match!

While I'm sympathetic to being accurate with our language, and
saying "amps", when "amp-hours" is meant bugs me *too*... I think
what Don is saying is (at any rate, what *I'm* saying is) that we
really don't have to spend our time picking nits with everyone's
language, when we can figure out what they mean. 

Part of the reason there is some sentiment to go back to the old
days when the Fido portion of this conference was not connected to
Usenet, or whatever it is, is that the academic types that joined us
(or we joined?) seem to be more interested in correcting each other
than in actually talking about making home power *work*. Many of us
on this side are actually *using* the stuff in our homes and
businesses, and are less concerned with whether we use the terms
precisely than whether we purchase or build good equipment.

When *I* think of matching units in refrigeration, my biggest
concern is whether the front of my Sunfrost refer matches the rest
of my kitchen <bg>.

I think all sides of this group could be of real benefit to the
others if we could just lighten up and try to learn instead of
trying to *teach* so damn much. Without trying to tear you or anyone
else down *too* much, so far it seems that the academic types have a
lot of terms and theory, but really could stand to learn from those
of us who are actually *doing* it out here in the field. It seems
easy for many to say, "That wouldn't work!", before asking, "Is
anyone *doing* this?"

Well, that's more than 'nuff said. Please take no offence. If it
bugs you, just ignore me.




Ian



... Redundancy - An airbag in  a politician's car.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1123 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: off-the-grid-computers
Message-ID: <757_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:42:31 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Byron Watts
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (04 Aug 94) Byron Watts wrote to All...

 BW> > The name of the outfit I believe you are referring to is
 BW> > Aircastle and the contact info (3+ years old) I have is
 BW> > 15926 Northville Rd, Plymouth MI 48170 (313)348-7135. They
 BW> > were there a year ago when I spoke to them 

 BW> I called the number and found it disconnected....

The current number is 810-557-7961, and the address is 15941 Goldwin
Place, Southfield, MI 48075 USA.

I spoke with John this morning, so I know that number is current.

Give him a call, he's very helpful and knowledgeable.

Ian



... A cynic is only a frustrated optimist.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1124 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-525-3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Sources for Solar Cells &
Message-ID: <758_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 13:47:56 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Rick Munday
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (10 Aug 94) Rick Munday wrote to All...

 RM> 	 Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment?
 RM> 	 i.e. Cells, Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...

Get a subscription, or at least a sample issue, of _Home Power_
magazine. There you will find ads from many of the alternative
energy manufacturers and dealers in North America. I think _HP_ is
easily worth it's weight in gold.

Home Power Magazine
PO Box 520
Ashland, OR 97520

subs & back issues 916-475-0830

$15 per year. $20 international surface.

Ian



... <----The information went data way---->


From ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1125 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-245-0!ARTHUR.TORREY
From: ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org (ARTHUR TORREY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cow slurry methane di
Message-ID: <759_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 06:29:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Silver Mage's Guild BBS (CAW) Waltham, MA
Lines: 41
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: GALE BARROWS
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Lo; and Gale Barrows pronounced unto Andy Dingley about Cow slurry methane
diges<=-

 AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, to deal
wit
 AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.
 
 AD>What can you do with the gas from such a digester ? Has anyone used it for
 AD>running a generator ? Water & space heating ?  How "clean" is the gas, in
 AD>terms of burner clogging ?

 GB> I, for one, would dearly love to have your "raw materials" you would
 GB> feed the digestor. (I am assuming you are largely interested in
 GB> disposal with an energy payback being secondary) It would sure save me
 GB> time and money to have the stuff to spread on my land to improve it's
 GB> productivity. I used to be able to get the local septic tank cleaner
 GB> to dump the "honey wagon" on the place but that has now been prohibited
 GB> for reasons I can not fathom. Now he has to dump into a municipal
 GB> processing plant at greater expense and I have to use manufactured
 GB> fertilizers also at greater expense without the organic materials to
 GB> add erosion resistance.

  While I sympathize with your feelings, there is atleast a quasi legit reason
to justify the rule in this particular case....  While the risks are greatly 
exaggerated in this country, there are many disease risks associated with 
improper disposal of human waste...  Among these is a whole family of different
worms, typhoid, dysentary, cholera, etc...  Much of the reason these diseases 
are so rare in this country is because we DO dump our sewage into municipal 
systems...  Spreading it on the surface of the land, ESPECIALLY if that land is

used for crop production is considered a prime disease vector if the sewage
does
happen to be infected...
 
 Besides, the fertilizer outfits need the $$$.....

 ART

... You never get a second chance to make a good first impression.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1126 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-101-245-0!ARTHUR.TORREY
From: ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org (ARTHUR TORREY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Electric Cars legisla
Message-ID: <75a_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 06:45:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Silver Mage's Guild BBS (CAW) Waltham, MA
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: TONY CYGAN
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Lo; and Tony Cygan pronounced unto Gale Barrows about Electric Cars
legislatio<=-

 -=> Quoting Gale Barrows to Tony Cygan <=-
 
 TC> Most of this was covered above.  I will agree that current
 TC> production cars are getting much better at reducing the
 TC> amount of pollution they are spewing into the air, but with
 TC> time these vehicles will fall into disrepair and the owners
 TC> will not get them fixed.  Also with the increase in the
 TC> population and more people driving it doesn't matter how
 TC> good the emmisions are, if they put out any emmisions at
 TC> all we will surpass up our current output of pollution and
 TC> still be in trouble.

 I would point out that according to studies done in CA, only about 10% of the
cars on the road account for about 90% of the automotive pollution.  
 
 There exists economically priced, easy to operate, reliable technology that 
would allow the gov't to concentrate its pollution enforcement efforts on 
that 10%, by identifying them in traffic, and ticketing them for failure to 
meet standards.

 This could be done either in addition to or instead of the current annual
check
system that does very little to catch the 10% of vehicles that offend, but 
costs the non offending driver large amounts of $$$, and makes the inspection
station operators considerable money....

 However the C.A.R.B. has chosen *NOT* to implement such a system...

 ART



... I once thought of buying Windows but forgot by the time the demo ran
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1127 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SNATCHING INDUCTION FROM POWER L
Message-ID: <75d_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 02:31:11 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 

I often wondered if the RF energy in the air could be harnessed for
any useful (or even not so useful) purpose...
wonder if you could charge a capacitor and then dump it to an LED
(maybe with one of those low-drain flasher chips)...
be kinda neat to have path marker lights or something like that.
or maybe a passive RF field strength meter...
...just brainstorming... (more of a drizzle)

-chris


From Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 18 00:40:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1128 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3641-220-0!Chris.Clark
From: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Clark)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EMF'S IN HOME WIRING, AP
Message-ID: <75e_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 02:44:41 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: DownTown BBS -- Durham, Nawth Car'lina 919-383-4905
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Peter Caffell
Status: O
X-Status: 

my girlfriend suffers from schizophrenia...
when we moved from a fairly built-up area of New Jersey to 
a place in rural North Carolina, she seemed to improve quite a bit
(less severe episodes, farther apart)
...wonder if there could be a connection to EMF?
...any thoughts on higher frequency signals (CB,FM broadcast, etc)?
I've often wondered about the risks of someone living near a high-wattage 
broadcast station DESIGNED to put energy into the air...
-chris


From rustytay@orca.esd114.wednet.edu Fri Aug 19 00:29:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1129 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rustytay@orca.esd114.wednet.edu (Rosamond Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: QUIET
Date: 18 Aug 1994 04:57:44 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 15
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408172109.A6788-0100000@orca>
References: <a9c_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 14 Aug 1994, Malcolm Stebbins wrote:

> I've had good results using automotive mufflers, sometimes buried in mineral
> earth so as not to initiate an underground fire.  'Course they don't las more
> than two or three years buried, but they are definitely LOTS quieter;
> 

I did not catch the original message, so I don't know what you are trying 
to baffle, but thought this might be helpful.  "More Power To You" by 
Skip Thompson, talks about how to baffle diesel generator power systems.  
you may be able to get the book from your library-my library ordered a 
copy for me- or you can buy it thru Backwoods HOme Magazine/1257 Siskiyou 
Blvd #213/Ashland, OR 97520

Bob Taylor AKA "BTU Bob"


From rustytay@orca.esd114.wednet.edu Fri Aug 19 00:29:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1130 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rustytay@orca.esd114.wednet.edu (Rosamond Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Propane generators
Date: 18 Aug 1994 05:01:10 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408172147.A6788-0100000@orca>
References: <a9e_9408161031@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 14 Aug 1994, Arlo Hagler wrote:

> Yes, Onan makes an LP genset; so does Kohler. I have installed and maintained
> both and they are dependable .
> 

re propane/lp genset generators, do you have any info on how they compare 
with diesel generators for maintenance?

Bob Taylor 


From JPA1%CRPTech@DCPP Fri Aug 19 00:29:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1131 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: JPA1%CRPTech@DCPP
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Propane generators
Date: 18 Aug 1994 05:43:39 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 5
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <wn49+V5jIia@pgegate.comp.pge.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

	According to the local expert in the field (my dad!)		
	He counts on doubling the average time between rebuilds by using	
	propane.  And he's been in the field for a good 15 years.	
									
					Jim Airth


From kondol@eua.ericsson.se Fri Aug 19 00:29:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1132 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!euas38c11!kondol
From: kondol@eua.ericsson.se (Olov Ostlund)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar South - is it critical?
Date: 18 Aug 1994 07:21:43 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Lines: 28
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <32v268$429@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>
References: <9408171058.tn15588@aol.com>
Reply-To: kondol@eua.ericsson.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: euas38c11.eua.ericsson.se
Status: O
X-Status: 

This table is from the book "build it your self solar energy plant" of Klaus Lorenz
Location about 60 degrees North

    Quarter       Roof tilt (from ground)        Yeild (%)

     South                15                       88
                          27                      100
                          42                      109

SouthEast/SouthWest       15                       81   
                          27                       90
                          42                       96

    East/West             15                       67
                          27                       67
                          42                       66



One important factor is the local weather conditions.
In some places there is fog and clouds in the morning hours (coast,big lakes)
In other places the cumulus increases from lunch time.
Call the local weather station or airport, they will have statistics for several
years.

/oo
             



From gbalfanz@netcom.com Fri Aug 19 00:29:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1133 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!gbalfanz
From: gbalfanz@netcom.com (Greg Balfanz)
Subject: Used WIND gen WANTED in TEXAS
Message-ID: <gbalfanzCuqHKo.JCx@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 14:00:24 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 


Does anyone near/in Texas want to sell a WIND generator,
charge controller, betteries, or inverter??????

I'll pickup, disassemble, etc.

Please email/phone.

Thanks, 
Greg (phone 210 336 2519)

                      \|/
 My house ->/\        -O-         
           /  \       /|\         
          /    \   /\             
         /      \ /  \  Deep in the heart of Texas hill country
        /  /\    /    \        /\    /\  /\      /\            /\/\/\  /\
       /  /  \  /      \      /  \/\/  \/  \  /\/  \/\  /\  /\/ / /  \/  \  
      /  /    \/ /\     \    /    \ \  /    \/ /   /  \/  \/  \  /    \   \
     /  /      \/  \/\   \  /      \    /   /    \
  __/__/_______/___/__\___\__________________________________________________



From ceram1@xmission.com Fri Aug 19 00:29:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1134 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!xmission!xmission!not-for-mail
From: ceram1@xmission.com (Ceramatec)
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Followup-To: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Date: 18 Aug 1994 09:48:07 -0600
Organization: XMission Public Access Internet (801-539-0900)
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32vvrn$r2d@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com><CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <870@solar.win.net><32r14p$cpn@biosrv1.bio> <409@solar.win.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xmission
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:114683 misc.rural:11297 alt.energy.renewable:1134 sci.energy:24259
Status: O
X-Status: 

John A. Stanley (jstanley@solar.win.net) wrote:

: And what a waste of electricity at that. I'm reading this thread on
: alt.energy.alternative because I have a house that is completely
: solar/wind powered, and largely solar heated. To use a refined
: energy product like electricity to produce something so crude as
: heat is foolish.

: --
: John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net

As I understand it, it doesn't work that way.  The electric power runs a 
motor driven vacuum pump/compressor which lowers the pressure over the 
inlet water lowering the boiling temperature.  The vapor is compressed 
causing it to condense giving up heat which is transfered to the 
incomming liquid.  It is a very efficient process compared to a 
conventional still.  Think of it a a heat pump system where the working 
fluid is water.
	Joe

Joseph Hartvigsen, jhartvig@bingham.mines.utah.edu
Chem Eng.



From Datnoid@aol.com Fri Aug 19 00:29:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1135 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: Datnoid@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 18 Aug 1994 17:55:50 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 57
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408181333.tn80690@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Several weeks ago I posted a note of my recent successfull transformation of
a "junked" Hotpoint refrigerator/freezer into a highly efficient solar
powered refrigerator.  What follows is a brief summary:

> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah
nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Mr. Lewis corrects with:
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

Mr. Kulhua adds:
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> Mr. Lewis replies:
You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.


Which brings us back to the original post.
In reply to Mr. Lewis I would rather spread the word of successful uses of AE
for personal use rather than debate whether or not the proper unit of energy
was used.  Mr. Lewis only obscurs the fact that the design and retrofitting
of a "junked" refrigerator with a highly efficient compressor/evaporator
coupled with added insulation worked!

I've kept a track of the energy use for the last two weeks and have found it
to consistently use less that .55kwh per day in energy consumption.  Or, an
average of 44Ah @12vdc in a 24 hour period.

Either way the story is the same. Anyone who uses alternative energy for home
use would understand in an instant what I originally posted. 
Please don't waste my precious online time with picking nits.

  



From lrecord@vnet.ibm.com Fri Aug 19 00:29:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1136 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: les@lrecord.austin.ibm.com (Les Record)
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <CuqMGC.40zB@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 15:45:46 GMT
Reply-To: lrecord@vnet.ibm.com
References: <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net> <32tfd9$dv7@search01.news.aol.com>
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H
Conover) writes:
>
>"With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
>70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
>but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
>suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
>collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!

It's hard for me to believe sufficient energy could be collected this way 
to be useful.  Perhaps you could experiment a bit to see what kind of 
power you could dissipate in a, say, 100 ohm load?

Additionally, I would anticipate a lot of noise on top of this due to
disturbances like lightning, radar, or microwave.  Some of it might even
prove dangerous if not properly shunted.

<*> Les Record - lrecord@vnet.ibm.com <;)



From kallen@tan.dawn Fri Aug 19 00:29:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1137 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!newsdist.tc.umn.edu!dawn.mmm.com!dawn.mmm.com!kallen
From: kallen@tan.dawn (Kurt Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: EMF'S IN HOME WIRING, AP
Date: 18 Aug 1994 17:12:11 GMT
Organization: 3M - St. Paul, MN  55144-1000 US
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <KALLEN.94Aug18121211@tan.dawn>
References: <75e_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.99.69.79
In-reply-to: Chris.Clark@f220.n3641.z1.fidonet.org's message of 15 Aug 94 02:44:41 GMT
Status: O
X-Status: 


> my girlfriend suffers from schizophrenia...
> when we moved from a fairly built-up area of New Jersey to 
> a place in rural North Carolina, she seemed to improve quite a bit
> (less severe episodes, farther apart)
> ...wonder if there could be a connection to EMF?
> ...any thoughts on higher frequency signals (CB,FM broadcast, etc)?
> I've often wondered about the risks of someone living near a high-wattage 
> broadcast station DESIGNED to put energy into the air...
> -chris

Many psych problems are caused and/or made worse by environmental problems other
than EMF fields. Air pollution, and food allergies are prime candidates. There is
lots of evidence that much (perhaps most) of the serious psych problems can be
helped by removing problem causing environmental allergins. EMF fields might only be
one of the things causing problems.

Each person is, of course, affected by different allergins.

Your change of location from the city would probably
a) give you better air quality. Unburnt hydro-carbons are often a problem.
b) If you moved to an older house, removal of newer wood/plaster/carpet products
   would reduce the formeldahyde (sp??), which is also a common problem.

A close member of my family was cured of 7 years of severe clinical depression when
she stopped drinking milk and stopped eating beef. She was quite allergic to it (as
showed by a RAST blood test and sub-lingual testing -- didnt show up on scratch tests).

If you are interested in more info, call me at 612-722-8799 in the evenings, or
contact the "Americal Clinic or Environmental Ecologists". They are based in denver,
but I dont have the exact address handy. They can put you in touch with doctors that
handle this kind of thing. (Most Dr.'s wont touch it with a ten foot pole, and suggest
your are crazy for even thinking such things ...)

Kurt W. Allen


From ez042368@dale.ucdavis.edu Fri Aug 19 00:29:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1138 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!dale.ucdavis.edu!ez042368
From: ez042368@dale.ucdavis.edu (Colehour Arden)
Subject: Powerbook in the bush
Message-ID: <Cuqs3u.n1t@ucdavis.edu>
Sender: usenet@ucdavis.edu (News Guru)
Organization: University of California, Davis
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 17:47:50 GMT
Lines: 27
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you all can humor the ignorance, I would like to request information 
on the aforementioned subject.  A friend is taking a Mac powerbook into 
the bush (literally) of Africa while doing research.  She has already 
bought a long life battery to accompany her and is intending on 
connecting to car and/or 12V motorcycle batteries when available.  To 
this end she purchased a series of connectors as well as a transformer 
unit that will regulate power fluctuations to the computer.  (The 
transformer unit is actually made for Powerbooks to connect directly to 
automobile cigarette lighters.)  

A few questions:  
* is there anything ELSE that one needs to run such a machine off of a 
car battery???
* any idea of how long an average fully charged car battery will run the 
machine???
* finally, what about SOLAR cells to charge the long life battery?  Any 
ideas of WHAT would be needed to make that work, WHERE to purchase said 
items, HOW much they might cost, HOW large they might be physically 
(wieght too), and/or other thoughts????

please email me with any responses at 

cjarden@ucdavis.edu

Thanks!

-cja


From clayglen@netcom.com Fri Aug 19 00:29:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1139 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!clayglen
From: clayglen@netcom.com (Clay Glenn)
Subject: Re: Electrical Generators
Message-ID: <clayglenCur2Is.Cww@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <229_9408141315@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 21:32:52 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 


Ian Woofenden (Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

[...diesel engine discussion...]

: I certainly don't like the stink they put out. But I acknowledge
: that they are more "fuel efficient".

Is this true?  Are diesel engines more fuel efficient than gasoline 
engines?  Or do they just appear to be more efficient due to diesel 
fuel's higher energy density (i.e.: theres a bunch more calories of 
energy packed in a gallon, litre, acre-foot, what-have-you, of diesel 
fuel than in an equal volume of gasoline)?

-- 
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\      O 
 >>>  Clay Glenn    clayglen@netcom.com  >>>    /|\
///////////////////////////////////////////     /'\


From johnson@wrs.com Fri Aug 19 12:19:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1140 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news!wrs.com!johnson
From: johnson@wrs.com (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <johnson.777254352@wrs.com>
Sender: news@wrs.com (News Manager)
Nntp-Posting-Host: darya
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
References: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 23:59:12 GMT
Lines: 73
Status: O
X-Status: 

brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (brop9555@utdallas.edu) writes:

>From: brop9555@utdallas.edu
>Date: 3 Aug 94 08:43:13 GMT

>Don Kulha (Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
>> From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
>> Date: 22 Jul 94 23:17:31 GMT



>> On 21 Jul 1994, Harry H Conover wrote:

>> > I assume that you are joking about this.
>> > 
>>      Harry, Although it may sound incredible to you. Mazda actually has 
>> such a beast....However it is actually a Hydrogen powered car using 
>> hydrogen made from water. I've seen pics of it. Now, this isn't exactly 
>> water powered but related to such.....
>>     DCK

>The Wankel rotary design is 
>the best internal combustion engine suitable to run on hydrogen because it 
>has a moving combustion chamber design.

How so? The rotor moves, but then again, so does a piston.

  Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
>powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
>superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
>the Hydrogen Wankel project.

That's mighty white of them.

  The Wankel is does not scarfice performance 
>when running Hydrogen, as recipercating piston motors do.

What scar-face of performance? - oops, I mean sacrifice.
The wankel *is* an internal combustion engine.  It relies on the same basic
laws of physics that conventional piston-type engines do.  Every wankel
rotory I've had the pleasure of working with produced maniacle amounts of
power for their size (1.3 liters turbo'ed: ~300hp@8500rpm) but they were
anything *but* efficient... getting anywhere from 5 to 12 miles per gallon.
I've only dealt with racing applications, but the fact is you can change
the characteristics of any internal combustion engine, and get similar
results as long as the particular engine stays intact.  That is the nice
thing about the wankels, they have low reciprocating mass, and as such
can take extremely high cumbustion chamber pressure as long (in the case
of mazda's) the weak apex seals are replaced with better units (as in 
racing.)

> The Hydrogen Wankel has good potential for the future.

The Hydrogen <insert favorite engine here> anything has reletively no
potential for the future.  Using hydrogen as a cars engery storage medium
costs more than batteries.  Maybe withing the next 10 to 20 years they'll
have economical and safe containers able to be mass produced cheaper
than the life run of batteries for a vehicle, but not right now.  And
besides, the convenience alone of being able to just plug the car in
is much more apealing than waiting for the hydrogen attendant to come
couple you up to fill your tank in his sub-zero suit and osha approved
license on his name badge.  It just isn't feasable today, or even in
the near-distant future.

My opinion: The only alternative to gasolene is ethl-alchohol, and it
isn't much of an alternative.

When the Dino's dry up, take public train-sportation.
Until then... Ban low-performance drivers, not high-performance cars.

--DAVE (johnson@wrs.com)

	Remember when sex was safe, and racing was dangerous...


From cnt@MCS.COM Fri Aug 19 12:20:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1141 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!redstone.interpath.net!ddsw1!not-for-mail
From: cnt@MCS.COM (Center / NT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Powerbook in the bush
Date: 18 Aug 1994 15:40:43 -0500
Organization: MCSNet Subscriber Account, Chicago's First Public-Access Internet!
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <330h0b$nb2@Venus.mcs.com>
References: <Cuqs3u.n1t@ucdavis.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.mcs.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2 (KSD)]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Colehour Arden (ez042368@dale.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
 A friend is taking a Mac powerbook into 
 the bush (literally) of Africa while doing research.  She has already 

: * finally, what about SOLAR cells to charge the long life battery?  Any 
: ideas of WHAT would be needed to make that work, WHERE to purchase said 
: items, HOW much they might cost, HOW large they might be physically 
: (wieght too), and/or other thoughts????

According to my most recent copy of the Real Goods catalog, they are 
selling a Solar panel built just for the PowerBook.  You can either
run the PowerBook directly off of the panel, or use the panel to recharge
the PowerBook's battery.  The panel also folds in half and will fit in a 
briefcase or backpack.  It sounds like this is just what your friend
needs.  They are selling it for $229.  You can call Real Goods at
1-800-762-7325.  The product number is 11-123.

Makes me wish I hade a PowerBook of my own, just so I could buy
solar panels for it.  :-) :-)

Sustainably yours,

Jonathan Goldman
---------------------------
jonathan@cnt.org



From igt@wimsey.com Fri Aug 19 12:20:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1142 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!mdisea!mmddvan!vanbc.wimsey.com!pme27.pomo.wis.net!igt
From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 06:45:40 GMT
Organization: Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <igt.86.2E506093@wimsey.com>
References: <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com> <32o5a4$2qo@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pme27.pomo.wis.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 



>In article <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
>(DaveHatunen) writes:

>"I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
>through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
>first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
>only group this seems to happen in.
>Has anyone else had this problem?

Me too, at wimsey.com in Vancouver.  Ghosts here seem to be from 2-3 days ago.

IGT


From alw2r@galen.med.virginia.edu Fri Aug 19 22:54:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1143 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: alw2r@galen.med.virginia.edu (Amelia L. Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 19 Aug 1994 18:50:23 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 1
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408191824.OAA86685@galen.med.Virginia.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe renew-energy. Thanks, Amelia.


From jstanley@solar.win.net Fri Aug 19 22:54:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1144 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!wariat.org!malgudi.oar.net!witch!solar!jstanley
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,misc.rural,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Message-ID: <421@solar.win.net>
References: <CuBptC.5Ks@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <hatunenCuC300.JI3@netcom.com><CuDHz0.65K@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> <870@solar.win.net><32r14p$cpn@biosrv1.bio> <409@solar.win.net><32vvrn$r2d@xmission.xmission.com>
Reply-To: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
From: jstanley@solar.win.net (John A. Stanley)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 14:28:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Lines: 22
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.forsale:114869 misc.rural:11332 alt.energy.renewable:1144 sci.energy:24296
Status: O
X-Status: 

 
In article <32vvrn$r2d@xmission.xmission.com>, Ceramatec (ceram1@xmission.com) writes:
>John A. Stanley (jstanley@solar.win.net) wrote:
>
>: And what a waste of electricity at that. I'm reading this thread on
>: alt.energy.alternative because I have a house that is completely
>: solar/wind powered, and largely solar heated. To use a refined
>: energy product like electricity to produce something so crude as
>: heat is foolish.
>
>: --
>: John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net
>
>As I understand it, it doesn't work that way.  The electric power runs a 
>motor driven vacuum pump/compressor which lowers the pressure over the 
>inlet water lowering the boiling temperature.  The vapor is compressed 
>causing it to condense giving up heat which is transfered to the 
>incomming liquid.  It is a very efficient process compared to a 
>conventional still.  Think of it a a heat pump system where the working 
>fluid is water.

That's way cool. Thanks for the explanation.

--
John A. Stanley                    jstanley@solar.win.net


From rwizard@america.net Fri Aug 19 22:54:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1145 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Newbie Needs Advice
Date: 19 Aug 1994 23:57:46 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408191947.A3304-0100000@atl1>
Reply-To: "Randy K. Wilson" <rwizard@america.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi gang,
I just picked up Home Power out of curiosity when I saw it at Barnes 
and Noble.  Wow ! Great Stuff !  My wife is restraining me from yanking
my power meter until I actually get something installed and running :) !
SO:
How can I learn more about cost/feasibility/etc. ? Any good books or
other resources you can suggest ?  Is it possible to run a typical
suburban home with lots of computers, appliances, and serious air-cond. use
off solar panels and/or windmill ?  What kind of dollars are we talking ?
Excuse the excess enthusiasm, its just that I have this fantasy about
telling various utilities to stick it.  Now if we could just come up with
an alternative to the phone company !

Thanks,
rwizard@america.net



From kencorn@clark.net Fri Aug 19 22:54:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1146 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!kencorn
From: kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T. Cornelius)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power Question (towers)
Date: 20 Aug 1994 00:47:28 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <333jr0$o0f@clarknet.clark.net>
References: <32tfh2$e02@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

MShadowfax (mshadowfax@aol.com) wrote:
: Okay - time for me to ask a question or two.

:      I'm getting ready to put up the first of several small wind turbines
: to back up my solar array and I have yet to find a decent explanation on
: how to erect the pole/turbine without killing myself or destroying the
: equipment in the process.
:      Basically I'm looking at a 3' 3-blade mini (300w) from Southwest
: Windpower that mounts on a schedule 40 pipe. I only plan on putting it up
: 20-40 feet to keep it relatively unobtrusive and to take advantage of a
: local venturi-effect created by a nearby shopping mall and local
: landscaping.
:      How do I get it up there, what is the best way to secure it and is
: there anything in particular I might need/want to be aware of. Also - once
: it's up there how can I get it down in the event I should need to. Any
: input will be appreciated.

That's a fairly standard operation.  I assume you plan to have your tower 
held in place with four guys.  The idea is to prepare your anchor points 
and guy wires ahead of time.  Attach three guy wires so that they will 
hold the tower after it is raised.  The attach a short  pole at right 
angles to the tower at its base.  You are using pipe so you could put an 
elbow at the bottom and screw in an eight-foot length of pipe.  This pipe 
should be sticking straight up.  Attach a strong line to your remaining 
guy wire and run it over the end of your pipe to a truck or something.  
Then you use the truck to pull the whole affair upright.  Put a couple of 
people on the side guy wires to keep things straight.   


--
Kenneth T. Cornelius  
kencorn@clark.net     
                  


From ekdille@artsci.wustl.edu Fri Aug 19 22:54:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1147 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!bigfoot.wustl.edu!mulberry!ekdille
From: ekdille@artsci.wustl.edu (Earl Kaye Dille)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Advice
Date: 20 Aug 1994 01:55:39 GMT
Organization: College of Arts and Sciences -- Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri, USA
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <333nqr$gv@bigfoot.wustl.edu>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408191947.A3304-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mulberry.wustl.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

	Before you tell the utilities to stick it, you might consider
how much you're paying for energy. Where else can you get a horse to
work for you for a solid hour for five pennies? We are probably spoiled
because we like to be cool in the hot weather. One alternative is to
turn off the air conditioning. If you have taken high school physics,
figure out what energy does, and how much you pay for it. It's all a 
matter of choice. In a sweltering St. Louis summer, I figure I can be
cool for about three bucks a day. It's worth it.

--
Earl K. Dille
ekdille@artsci.wustl.edu



From Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 10:30:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1148 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3624-7-0!Terry.Buyers
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, ap
Message-ID: <faa_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 23:24:09 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Schrodinger's Catbox (803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Peter Caffell
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a msg on <Aug 11 09:19>, Peter Caffell of 3:772/1010 writes:


 PC> The earth's natural resonant frequency is about 7.8 hz, this is
 PC> also a freq. at which the brain is in a normal state.  I use an
 PC> Earth Field generator in my home to try and counter the effects
 PC> of stray EMF from electrical wiring and appliances.  This
 PC> gadget produces a high intensity 7.8hz magnetic pulse with a
 PC> radius of about 20 yards.  It produces a noticably relaxing
 PC> atmosphere in the house.

You have plans for this device?

  


From Jim.Canning@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 20 10:30:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1149 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jim.Canning
From: Jim.Canning@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jim Canning)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: DUNLITE wind power company??
Message-ID: <fbf_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 21:57:45 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:UnivFrom Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1148 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3624-7-0!Terry.Buyers
From: Terry.Buyers@f7.n3624.z1.fidonet.org (Terry Buyers)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, ap
Message-ID: <faa_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 23:24:09 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Schrodinger's Catbox (803)652-3760 PRNet/SC SURVNet
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Peter Caffell
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a msg on <Aug 11 09:19>, Peter Caffell of 3:772/1010 writes:


 PC> The earth's natural resonant frequency is about 7.8 hz, this is
 PC> also a freq. at which the brain is in a normal state.  I use an
 PC> Earth Field generator in my home to try and counter the effects
 PC> of stray EMF from electrical wiring and appliances.  This
 PC> gadget produces a high intensity 7.8hz magnetic pulse with a
 PC> radius of about 20 yards.  It produces a noticably relaxing
 PC> atmosphere in the house.

You have plans for this device?

  


From Jim.Canning@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 20 21:13:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1149 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jim.Canning
From: Jim.Canning@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jim Canning)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: DUNLITE wind power company??
Message-ID: <fbf_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 21:57:45 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:University of New Brunswick
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jac@fac.fadmin.unb.ca (Jim Canning)
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:57:45 GMT


     Hi. A friend of mine has a wind powered generator made by  an Australian 
company. He called the phone number and the person that answered said the 
company had moved, but were still in existance. She didn't know their new 
number. Since we may need new parts??, I was wondering if anyone knew their 
number and/or address. 

     Dunlite Electrical Company  -  a division of PYE Industries Sales Pty. 
Ltd.  (another place it says Davey Dulite Division)

     They were in Hindmarsh, S. A. 5007

  Thanks in advance for any help. 

  Jim Canning, Univ. of New Brunswick, Fredericton, N. B.
  JAC@UNB.CA


From Steven.Collins@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 20 21:13:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1150 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Steven.Collins
From: Steven.Collins@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Steven Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Forsale: SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller  200gal/hr
Message-ID: <fc0_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 19:34:24 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:U S WEST Information Technologies
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: scollins@lookout.mtt.it.uswc.uswest.com (Steven Collins)
Date: 10 Aug 94 14:34:24 GMT


 SuperStill Model S200 pure water distiller Serial Number 8809392
 1988 with only 2600 hrs but has been in storage for a couple of years
 200 gal/hour
 480V 3-phase   6' long x 3' wide x 8' tall ~4000lbs
 $8500 or offer (will ship anywhere in US for that price)
  
scollins@uswest.com 
-- 


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1151 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-300-507-0!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <fef_9408162156@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 18 Aug 94 03:59:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: ARLO HAGLER
Status: O
X-Status: 

AH> Yes, Onan makes an LP genset; so does Kohler. I have installed and maintain
  > both and they are dependable .

Do you have any figures on KW / lb of propane? or any other effeiceny
figures? Comparason to diesel?

thx a bunch,

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Someday, Alice, Someday, ... BANG, to the moon Alice!


From muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com Sat Aug 20 21:13:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1152 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: generator efficiency diesel v propane....
Date: 20 Aug 1994 13:10:25 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408201253.AA15684@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


If you go through Onan generator literature--data sheets for different models,
get from a distributor--you can pull out fuel consumption figures to compare. 

Typically:

Diesel is more efficient, especially at part load.  The realized advantage
depends on what you are comparing.  Modern overhead valve, high compression
gasoline engines are much better in this regard than the traditional "flathead"
low compression engines Onan (for example) mostly makes.  Similarly, direct
injection diesels are more efficient (10% or so?) than the traditional indirect
injection types.  So, be aware of the details of what you are comparing.

Propane will give about the same btu/KWh results as gasoline, burned in the
same engine.  Propane lends itself to higher compression ratios, which improve
thermal efficiency, so an engine optimized for propane could be a bit more
efficient.  Propane is often very expensive on a btu basis, at least around
here.

Do you want to live and/or work in the plume of toxic, carcinogenic particulate
that small diesels produce?

am


From wlord@bu.edu Sat Aug 20 21:13:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1153 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Advice
Date: 20 Aug 1994 13:52:37 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 40
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408200915.D79232-0100000@acs4.bu.edu>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408191947.A3304-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

You'll get lots of responses on this.  You're asking the right questions 
as well.

All will tell you to forget the air conditioning unless you are prepared 
to build and evaporative version described in this month's or last  
month's home power.

My wife and I are presently constructing a solar house in Maine.  We will 
have a LARGE array on the roof plus solar thermal panels for heat/hot water.

Steven Strong, our architect, has written a fine book on the Solar 
Electric House...it's high quality and high cost.  You should also know 
about Read Goods Trading...they sell solar related equipment plus run a 
pretty impressive newsletter service.  

Good luck, but listen to your wife.  Don't do nothin' till you're halfway 
up to speed.

Bill Lord-Boston

On Fri, 19 Aug 1994, Randy K. Wilson wrote:

> 
> Hi gang,
> I just picked up Home Power out of curiosity when I saw it at Barnes 
> and Noble.  Wow ! Great Stuff !  My wife is restraining me from yanking
> my power meter until I actually get something installed and running :) !
> SO:
> How can I learn more about cost/feasibility/etc. ? Any good books or
> other resources you can suggest ?  Is it possible to run a typical
> suburban home with lots of computers, appliances, and serious air-cond. use
> off solar panels and/or windmill ?  What kind of dollars are we talking ?
> Excuse the excess enthusiasm, its just that I have this fantasy about
> telling various utilities to stick it.  Now if we could just come up with
> an alternative to the phone company !
> 
> Thanks,
> rwizard@america.net
> 
> 


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1154 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Twit Filter Use
Message-ID: <ff3_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Aug 94 16:02:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Willey
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave Willey told Dave Skinner regarding usenet link :

DW>As  much  as I hate to admit defeat, I tend to agree.  This USED to 
DW>be a very interesting place to exchange ideas on REAL-WORLD  "small"  
DW>(single family  sized)  power systems using proven designs, as well as 
DW>new tech.

DW>I  for  one  am getting tired  of this nuke dribble.

Why do you seem to feel so helpless to do anything about this?  There are 
only a few people who are involved in the "nuke dribble" and they can be 
very effectively eliminated from your view by the use of the "twit filter" 
option if you are reading this with an offline mail reader.

Most offline mail readers have this feature built into them but it appears 
it is rarely used.

I personally have only used it once when it was obvious that this person 
was just being contrary and not constructive in his thoughts and so I 
notified him not to bother to post to me since I wouldn't be seeing it 
anyhow.

This way I get to dialog with who I wish and ignore the rest.

Just my two cents on the whole dribble/censorship debate.  If people want 
to argue let them do so.  If not then just turn the twit filter on!  <g>




---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * I'm anti-semantic.  I don't pay my syntax!


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1155 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <ff4_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 10 Aug 94 16:03:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 52
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ian Woofenden told Eric Gray regarding Electrical Generators :

IW> EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

IW>I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
IW>pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

From: "How Green Were Our Hopes For Diesel?" by William Bown, _New 
Scientist_, 4 June 94, pp. 47- :

        "In March, this magazine reported the views of Joel Schwartz, an  
         epidemiologist at the US government's Environmental Protection   
         Agency, on particulates less than 10 micrometres in diameter -   
         the so-called PM10 ("Dying from too much dust", 12 March [94,    
         _New Scientist_])."  

        "Schwartz calculates the number of deaths in England and Wales    
         from PM10 from all sources to be 10,000 a year."  

        "Those most at risk are probably people with asthma, the elderly  
         and others with weak lungs.  If diesel emissions account for 30  
         percent of the PM10 emissions from all sources (as suggested by a 
         recent report for the Department of the Environment), then the   
         adviser's estimate makes some sense."

The rest of the article goes into why there is so little response by 
governmental agencies in charge of protecting the citizenry from this 
hazard.

Another reference is _The Toxic Cloud: The Poisoning of America's Air_ by 
Michael H. Brown (1987) which notes:

        "Among the highly mutagenic (and in one expert's memorable words, 
         'horrendously carcinogenic') emissions are also nitro-PAHs       
         [Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) such as nitrofluranthene,     
         which come from diesel combustion." p. 259

and:

        "...a study by the National Cancer Institute found truck drivers  
         exposed to diesel pollution in Detroit to have 11.9 times the    
         lower urinary cancer of an unexposed group.  A similar study     
         showed the same in London.  Each year, said NRDC, from thirty to 
         eight thousand excess lung cancers might be caused in America by 
         diesel pollutants.  The particulates are not ony chemically      
         overloaded but also of the size that can penetrate the lung." p. 
         260



---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * Windows 3.1: From the People Who Brought You EDLIN!


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1156 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-285-203-0!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Overspeed troubles
Message-ID: <ff5_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 16:12:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael Welch told Greg Balfanz regarding Best charge controller? :

MW>In wind and hydro systems, you need to use all the power that is 
MW>being put out all the time, or the unit will overspin itself into 
MW>oblivion.

Not with regard to wind plants!

I don't know about hydro plants but almost all commercial wind plants have 
non-load related governing mechanisms just to deal with non-load overspeed 
conditions.  This goes from blade pitching/warping, turning the rotor out 
of the wind upwards or sideways or using alternative aerodynamic loading 
methods.  There are some very small units that don't have any control 
system for overspeeds but they are small and are designed to handle 
no-load overspeeds.





---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * A clear conscience is a sure sign of a bad memory.


From mshadowfax@aol.com Sat Aug 20 21:13:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1157 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power Question (towers)
Date: 20 Aug 1994 11:15:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3356lm$11t@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <333jr0$o0f@clarknet.clark.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <333jr0$o0f@clarknet.clark.net>, kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T.
Cornelius) writes:

"That's a fairly standard operation.  I assume you plan to have your tower

held in place with four guys.  The idea is to prepare your anchor points 
and guy wires ahead of time.  Attach three guy wires so that they will 
hold the tower after it is raised.  The attach a short  pole at right 
angles to the tower at its base.  You are using pipe so you could put an 
elbow at the bottom and screw in an eight-foot length of pipe.  This pipe 
should be sticking straight up.  Attach a strong line to your remaining 
guy wire and run it over the end of your pipe to a truck or something.  
Then you use the truck to pull the whole affair upright.  Put a couple of 
people on the side guy wires to keep things straight"



     This is about how I thought it would go. Someone has also proposed
the use of ham-radio tower components. They described them as cheap
($30-40 for ten foot sections) and very durable with high load capacities
and guy-less installations to 100'+ (I only need maybe 30-40' if that).
The only catch is having to climb the tower for maintenance purposes
(NBD). Any thoughts?

Shadowfax




From waddell@waddell.ink.org Sat Aug 20 21:13:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1158 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!ink3.ink.org!waddell.ink.org!waddell
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Message-ID: <3344it$7m5@ink3.ink.org>
From: waddell@waddell.ink.org (Jeff Waddell)
Date: 20 Aug 1994 05:33:17 GMT
References: <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>
Organization: Information Network of Kansas
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.159.86.9
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 17 Aug 1994 04:04:59 GMT, Harry H Conover (conover@max.tiac.net) wrote:

[interesting power source info. deleted]

: -->ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
: -->    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
: -->    through use of a collector on top the mast.


It will probably work, but won't your collector on the top of the mast 
serve as a lightening rod?  If so, I wouldn't want to be on that boat in 
an Electical storm!!!

	If not--cool!!! free power for every one!!!

		Jeff
		waddell@waddell.ink.org




From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Sat Aug 20 21:13:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1159 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Advice
Date: 20 Aug 1994 19:33:27 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 105
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408201917.NAA07346@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408191947.A3304-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, Randy,
> I just picked up Home Power out of curiosity when I saw it at Barnes 
> and Noble.  Wow ! Great Stuff !  My wife is restraining me from yanking
> my power meter until I actually get something installed and running :) !

Good for her -- you need to spend some time in research! :-)

> SO:
> How can I learn more about cost/feasibility/etc. ? Any good books or
> other resources you can suggest ?  Is it possible to run a typical
> suburban home with lots of computers, appliances, and serious air-cond. use
> off solar panels and/or windmill ?  What kind of dollars are we talking ?

You've taken the first good steps, IMO.  (In fact, I'm not all that far
ahead of you in this path!)  My suggestions to you are:

1)  Get on the phone with each advertiser in Home Power that offers a
    free catalog, and tell 'em where you heard about them.  There are
    no doubt good companies which charge small fees for their catalogs,
    but I'm a little put off by this practice.

2)  Learn basic AC and DC electricity.  This really isn't that hard.  Home
    Power has good articles periodically which explain the basics.  You're
    not building a stereo, but you should know why a 120 watt load at 12
    volts requires heaver gauge wire than a 120 watt load at 120 volts.
    Know what watts, amperes, amp-hours, and watt-hours are and how 
    they relate to each other.

3)  Learn basic energy-related terms and how they relate.  What's a BTU?
    How does a Joule relate to a watt?  (Don't be put off by this stuff;
    it isn't all that scary.  If you can multiply, you can do this!)

...armed with the above knowledge...

4)  Do an energy audit on yourself and your family.  What's your home
    energy usage?  You may want to concentrate on electricity first, since
    much of the RE community and equipment focuses on this -- but, water
    and space heating can also be done with RE.  How much time does the TV
    spend "on" in your house?  The computer?  Lights?

5)  Apply basic conservation measures.  Replace incandescent lights with
    compact fluorescent lights if they spend more than, say, 30 minutes
    "on."  The refrigerator is almost certainly your biggest electricity
    user, unless you have an all-electric home.  Consider replacing it
    with a Sun-Frost, or (if/when they become available) other efficient
    models from "mainstream" manufacturers.  (Incidently, talking about
    Sun-Frost units can be a flame enticer.  _Consumer_Reports_ did a
    review of the Sun-Frost (Feb '94) and found it lacking.  However, if
    I recall correctly, their test procedure set the Sun-Frost freezer
    section to a much lower temperature than it normally operates at, to
    compare it against other 'fridges. Q: What happens when you run a
    piece of equipment outside its normal operating range?  A: It doesn't
    work well. 'Nuff said.)

6)  Learn what your engergy resources are and what their potential are.
    "If you have _good_ wind or _any_ hydropower potential on your site,
    you will have more power at lower cost." -- Backwoods Solar Electric
    Systems catalog.

> Excuse the excess enthusiasm, its just that I have this fantasy about
> telling various utilities to stick it.  Now if we could just come up with
> an alternative to the phone company !

Whoa, hold on a sec.  How 'bout the fantasy of sending an electric bill to
the utility?  It may be a real win for you, depending on your utility, the
state laws where you live, and the local public utility commission.  A
so-called "intertie" system may work out well for you since you have grid
service already.  There are many variables here, and I don't have a handle
on them at all.  Others will have to take up from here, because this is
as far as I've gotten:

7)  Consider your options.  You could do a stand-alone system, a stand-alone
    system which uses the utility as backup power, or an intertie system.
    You may get most of your power from PV, wind, or hydro, depending on
    your resources.  You may use two or all three of these.  If you work 
    with a utility intertie system, you may have to learn the subtle art 
    of diplomacy.  That same art may come in handy when putting up a wind 
    turbine tower, depending on where you live.  (Zoning issues.)  There 
    are cost tradeoffs involved here.

To help with 7), there are many resources -- people, the 'net, books --
that can help answer questions.  For wind power, the best resources are
Mick Sagrillo at Lake Michigan Wind and Sun (see his ad in HP), and the
book "Wind Power for Home and Business" by Paul Gipe.  Mick is very
helpful, very level-headed, and very talkative.

I've not found a solar "Guru" who corresponds to Mick's wind knowledge.
(suggestions, people?)  As books go, condsider "The Solar Electric Home"
by Joel Davidson and "The Solar Electric Independent Home Book" from
Fowler Solar Electric.  There are probably better ones out there, but
I don't know them.  I can't recommend anything for hydro.  The only thing
I can suggest is to avoid stuff that has an overtone of "1001 reasons why
solar is better than wind/wind is better than solar/red is better than
green/etc."

As stated above, others -- those who have systems in place -- have to
carry on from here and tell their stories.  Oh, and don't apologise for
having "excess enthusiasm" -- there is nothing wrong with that!!

Regards and good luck,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Can we all get along?"



From rwizard@america.net Sat Aug 20 21:13:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1160 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Date: 20 Aug 1994 22:30:46 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 6
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408201833.A9993-0100000@atl1>
References: <3344it$7m5@ink3.ink.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

If used as a lightning rod a sailboat mast provides a "cone of protection".
The diameter of this cone at the base is approx. equal to the height of
the mast.

rwizard



From muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com Sat Aug 20 21:13:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1161 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: hazards of diesel exhaust
Date: 21 Aug 1994 00:00:41 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 80
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408202338.AA22682@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

From:	ESDS01::"Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org" "Dennis Keim" 20-AUG-1994 10:07:51.05
To:	renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
CC:	
Subj:	Diesel pollution

Ian Woofenden told Eric Gray regarding Electrical Generators :

IW> EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

IW>I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
IW>pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

From: "How Green Were Our Hopes For Diesel?" by William Bown, _New 
Scientist_, 4 June 94, pp. 47- :

        "In March, this magazine reported the views of Joel Schwartz, an  
         epidemiologist at the US government's Environmental Protection   
         Agency, on particulates less than 10 micrometres in diameter -   
         the so-called PM10 ("Dying from too much dust", 12 March [94,    
         _New Scientist_])."  

        "Schwartz calculates the number of deaths in England and Wales    
         from PM10 from all sources to be 10,000 a year."  

        "Those most at risk are probably people with asthma, the elderly  
         and others with weak lungs.  If diesel emissions account for 30  
         percent of the PM10 emissions from all sources (as suggested by a 
         recent report for the Department of the Environment), then the   
         adviser's estimate makes some sense."

The rest of the article goes into why there is so little response by 
governmental agencies in charge of protecting the citizenry from this 
hazard.

Another reference is _The Toxic Cloud: The Poisoning of America's Air_ by 
Michael H. Brown (1987) which notes:

        "Among the highly mutagenic (and in one expert's memorable words, 
         'horrendously carcinogenic') emissions are also nitro-PAHs       
         [Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) such as nitrofluranthene,     
         which come from diesel combustion." p. 259

and:

        "...a study by the National Cancer Institute found truck drivers  
         exposed to diesel pollution in Detroit to have 11.9 times the    
         lower urinary cancer of an unexposed group.  A similar study     
         showed the same in London.  Each year, said NRDC, from thirty to 
         eight thousand excess lung cancers might be caused in America by 
         diesel pollutants.  The particulates are not ony chemically      
         overloaded but also of the size that can penetrate the lung." p. 
         260

I agree.  Diesel exhaust is different than spark ignition stuff:  typically
less carbon monoxide and gaseous hydrocarbons; more particulates (soot) and
oxides of nitrogen.  Some years ago it was possible to focus on the CO and
hydrocarbons and dismiss the particulates as "harmless soot."  Now, it's
becoming more and more clear that the particulates are a severe health hazard.

I've played around with several makes of small diesel; all have produced
offensive amounts of particulate, though some are much better than others.

am

---
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * Windows 3.1: From the People Who Brought You EDLIN!

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks ======
% Received: by esds01.es.dupont.com; id AA16279; Sat, 20 Aug 94 10:06:14 -0400
% Received: by gatekeeper.es.dupont.com; id AA26873; Sat, 20 Aug 94 10:06:13 -0400
% Received: from bigblue.oit.unc.edu (bigblue.oit.unc.edu [152.2.21.9]) by twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (8.6.9/RK-931108.0) with SMTP id KAA25652 for <renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>; Sat, 20 Aug 1994 10:04:40 -0400
% Received: by bigblue.oit.unc.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03)          id AA22841; Sat, 20 Aug 1994 10:02:03 -0400
% Received: from GATEWAY by bigblue with netnewsfor renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu (renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu)
% To: renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
% Date: 10 Aug 94 16:03:00 GMT
% From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
% Message-Id: <ff4_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
% Organization: Fidonet: Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
% Sender: london@sunsite.unc.edu
% Subject: Diesel pollution


From muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com Sat Aug 20 21:13:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1162 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: towers....
Date: 21 Aug 1994 00:14:43 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 41
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408202352.AA22777@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

From:	ESDS01::"mshadowfax@aol.com" "MShadowfax" 20-AUG-1994 11:37:52.46
To:	renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
CC:	
Subj:	Re: Wind Power Question (towers)

In article <333jr0$o0f@clarknet.clark.net>, kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T.
Cornelius) writes:

"That's a fairly standard operation.  I assume you plan to have your tower

held in place with four guys.  The idea is to prepare your anchor points 
and guy wires ahead of time.  Attach three guy wires so that they will 
hold the tower after it is raised.  The attach a short  pole at right 
angles to the tower at its base.  You are using pipe so you could put an 
elbow at the bottom and screw in an eight-foot length of pipe.  This pipe 
should be sticking straight up.  Attach a strong line to your remaining 
guy wire and run it over the end of your pipe to a truck or something.  
Then you use the truck to pull the whole affair upright.  Put a couple of 
people on the side guy wires to keep things straight"



     This is about how I thought it would go. Someone has also proposed
the use of ham-radio tower components. They described them as cheap
($30-40 for ten foot sections) and very durable with high load capacities
and guy-less installations to 100'+ (I only need maybe 30-40' if that).
The only catch is having to climb the tower for maintenance purposes
(NBD). Any thoughts?

Shadowfax

Ham radio towers cost more than pipes and may need just as much guying.  They
can be tipped up in the same way if you are so inclined.  The ability to be
climbed can be seen as a pro or con:  makes possible inspection and
maintenance, along with all the hazards of climbing.  Also may constitute an
"attractive nuisance" and expose you to liability for kids climbing, etc,
unless you install anti-climb shields, fence off the tower base with barbed
wire, etc.....  No free lunch on towers!

am



From jbvb@elf.com Sun Aug 21 21:07:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1163 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Advice
Date: 21 Aug 1994 03:05:34 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <336g9v$6c5@usenet.elf.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408191947.A3304-0100000@atl1> <199408201917.NAA07346@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards) writes:

>7)  Consider your options.  You could do a stand-alone system, a stand-alone
>    system which uses the utility as backup power, or an intertie system.
>    You may get most of your power from PV, wind, or hydro, depending on
>    your resources.  You may use two or all three of these.  If you work 
>    with a utility intertie system, you may have to learn the subtle art 
>    of diplomacy.  That same art may come in handy when putting up a wind 
>    turbine tower, depending on where you live.  (Zoning issues.)

I chose PV/battery stand-alone, with a manual switch to change the
house from grid to inverter, for two reasons:  First, I had had some
bad experiences with long power outages (in 1991, not even the NH PUC had
any idea how many line breaks there happened in the hurricane, or how much
progress the utilities had made fixing them).  Second, I didn't want to
sink a lot of time into arguing about rates & interconnections.  Others
may assign different values and make different choices.

>To help with 7), there are many resources -- people, the 'net, books --
>that can help answer questions.  For wind power, the best resources are
>Mick Sagrillo at Lake Michigan Wind and Sun (see his ad in HP), and the
>book "Wind Power for Home and Business" by Paul Gipe.  Mick is very
>helpful, very level-headed, and very talkative.

Mick is all of the above, but I still wish he'd called me when he started
having "amazing problems with his Sitka Spruce supplier" instead of waiting
for me to call to see when he was going to ship my new blades - I might have
had equipment or people waiting on them...

>I've not found a solar "Guru" who corresponds to Mick's wind knowledge.
>(suggestions, people?)  As books go, condsider "The Solar Electric Home"
>by Joel Davidson and "The Solar Electric Independent Home Book" from
>Fowler Solar Electric.

There are quite a few local PV dealer/installers (they usually do
solar hot water & pool heaters too) who have a lot of hands-on
experience and can help you.  They usually feel better about this if
you have them do the installation, or at least buy some or all of the
gear through them, so they get something for their time.  You can also
try some of firms you'll see in HP that have a reginal or national
presence (Backwoods Solar Electric has an information-rich catalog,
for instance).  If you read the books carefully, you may find that you
know some theory that your dealer may not, but they (hopefully) will
know about the electric code and where you can get a 100A DC circuit
breaker that fits a brand X enclosure.

jbvb

--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From ak513@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Aug 21 21:07:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1164 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ak513
From: ak513@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marc Poulin)
Subject: solar panels
Message-ID: <Cuvy8o.KyD@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: ak513@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marc Poulin)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 12:48:24 GMT
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 



Does anyone know how to assemble solar panels.
I just purchased a 'RAW' solar panel 12" square
12v 4w ($10.00) it is unframed and without any terminals .

The sales clerk suggested I use aluminium tape to make
the connections. Any other Ideas would be welcomed.


Thanks


--
     . .
    /|/|      _____         | Marc Poulin
   / * |arc  //___/         | ak513@freenet.carleton.ca
       `----//  oulin       |    


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1165 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NOT theft
Message-ID: <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 06:39:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 36
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Latta
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 16-Aug-94 01:26:45
santarosa,ca,usa

 ++
BL> I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling. 
BL> Nothing
BL> is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from
BL> one
BL> form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power
BL> company'
BL> s transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power
BL> whether
BL> there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is used. 
BL> You
BL> are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company uses in
BL> its
BL> transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation.  Only the
BL> geometry is different.
 ++

bullSteamingCrap,  those powerlines run all over MY planet spilling 
out electromagnetic waves and magnetic field E-V-E-R-Y INCH OF THE WAY,
into the air, into my head...    
they are free waves in the air (a waste product no less),  and you may
use them(or not:)  as YOU see fit!

 This really is MEANINGLESS to the issue but am i correct in thinking 
that this is not actually using the power companies electricity, but 
converting their waste into useable energy.  The only loss the 
pCompanies face is that people no longer need to PAY them for eletric.
 anybody?

zachariahCzeck
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1166 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: huhh?
Message-ID: <d0f_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 05:00:06 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tim Mullen
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 16-Aug-94 02:14:14
santarosa,ca,usa

 ++
TM> >the power company's responsibility to shield us from the potentially
TM> >dangerous form of radiation, thereby not only securing it's valuable
TM> >property but protecting the general public as well?

TM> >Shadowfax


TM>   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?
 ++

you are joking aren't you Tim?
 zachariahCzeck

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1167 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototyp
Message-ID: <d10_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 15:44:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Richard Russell
Status: O
X-Status: 


 RR> I would be interested in hearing more about the AFS (what does that
 RR> stand for) and sources on the two flywheel designs you mention. I've
 RR> been curious about the use of large flywheels for home power storage as
 RR> well as combining flywheels with a hovercraft design, something that in
 RR> it's nature tends to stay reasonably level as it travels. Any direction
 RR> towards sources of info and/or thoughts on these ideas would be most
 RR> appreciated. Richard Russell

AFS (American Flywheel Systems) address is -- 
     P.O.Box 449
     Medina, WA. 98039

They have designed flywheels for the space program, so 
have some knowledge base to go on (although building
a flywheel for a moving vehicle is somewhat different)
and had contracted with 3M to build to actual flywheel
batteries when they are ready.

It's my understanding that they approached the Big 3
auto companies with their prototypes, but they were
not interested, so AFS decided to build their own car
to showcase the technology.



... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1168 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <d11_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 15:07:02 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 47
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Avery
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JA> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?

 JA> The application that I am involved in will have 60
 JA> 2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the 
 JA> roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
 JA> WA state . 

 JA> That's 480 square feet of relatively expensive panels and
 JA> the customer is concerned about snow load . Right now the
 JA> design is to mount the panels on rails that are bolted to
 JA> the roof running the width of the modules , the 2 foot span.
 JA> The rails cross the 4 foot length of the modules at 1 foot 
 JA> and 3 feet.  The modules would be about 5 inches off of the roof . 

 JA> The roof is at an angle of about 15 degrees , fairly flat.

 JA> A snow fall of 20 - 30 feet would not be surprising at this 
 JA> location and it would probably pile up to this depth on top
 JA> of the modules.

 JA> ? WILL THEY GET CRUNCHED ?

 JA> Do they need further bracing ? 

Sounds like you'll have some other things to consider
also, like where will power for those rest stops come 
from when the snow covers those panels...  solar panels
need the sunlight to reach them to produce power...
ANY blockage of sunlight, to ANY CELL on the panel
will cause a considerable reduction in power output.

I would think that tilting the panels to capture more 
of the sun would be the best bet to keep snow off of them
and to capture the most amount of sunlight and therefore
power generation by the panels.  You should also put the 
panels near the edge of the roof, so the snow will fall 
onto the ground and not just build up against the panels.

Better yet, put them on a tower of some type with a
solar tracker to get the lost output from those panels.
You could probably cut down the total number of panels 
being used and put up the tower for the same cost...


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1169 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FREE power?
Message-ID: <d12_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 05:00:04 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ken Finney
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Ken Finney to Zachariah Czeck <=-

 KF> Actually, I believe Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has
 KF> published a paper on how EVs could produce more pollution 
 KF> than internal combustion vehicles.  Not someone I would 
 KF> call a crackput.

Nope, not at all.  But I think your misconstruing what he 
might have said.  

In fact Amory is a big fan of Hybrid type vehciles, both to 
reduce our dependance on foreign oil (for National Security 
reasons) and to better our environment.  

Another source for you to consider which are not crackpots
is the Union of Concerned Scientists.  This groups issued
a report indicating that Electric Vehicles will provide 
over $17,000.00 per vehicle in reduced emisions costs to
industry and government.  I have sent their newsrelease
under a seperate header.  


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:15 EDT 1994
Article: 1170 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emmisions Testing/EV's
Message-ID: <d13_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 14:35:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Arthur Torrey
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Arthur Torrey to Tony Cygan <=-

 AT> I would point out that according to studies done in CA, only about
 AT> 10% of the cars on the road account for about 90% of the automotive
 AT> pollution.   
 AT> There exists economically priced, easy to operate, reliable
 AT> technology that  would allow the gov't to concentrate its pollution
 AT> enforcement efforts on  that 10%, by identifying them in traffic, and
 AT> ticketing them for failure to  meet standards.

 AT> This could be done either in addition to or instead of the 
 AT> current annual check
 AT> system that does very little to catch the 10% of vehicles that offend,
 AT> but  costs the non offending driver large amounts of $$$, and makes the
 AT> inspection station operators considerable money....

 AT> However the C.A.R.B. has chosen *NOT* to implement such a system...

I -hate- to disagree with you Art, but I live in California 
and they are testing such a system as I type this message.  

The program is called "Smog Check II".  

Remote sensing equipment is placed by the roadside and
uses lasers and high speed cameras to pick out offending
vehicles.  The owners of these cars are then sent a
notice to appear at a State of California inspection site
to get their vehicle tested.  There are no costs for the
test and no tickets are supposed to be handed out, unless 
you don't appear for the test (in which case it could cost 
you $250.00).  

These tests are happening here in Sacramento and in Los
Angeles and have been going on for about a month now.
Why are they doing this, why to help cut down on the 
excess pollution being spewwed by older cars, to catch 
some of the private inspection stations who are selling 
their services and ultimately improve our air quality.

Once the tests are completed a determination will be
made on whether it was a succesfull program and should
be continued (or something else takes it's place).

... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1171 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: EMF's in home wiring, ap
Message-ID: <d14_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:47:42 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Peter Caffell
Status: O
X-Status: 

> |TD>How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC  >
|TD>house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC   >
|TD>house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce  
> The DC magnetic flux would produce a non-alternating single
> polarity, similar to a fixed magnet.  The strength of the
> field created would be the same as that for an AC circuit using
> the same Wattage.
 
Magnetic flux is proportional to the amount of CURRENT flowing through a
conductor.  Wattage is Voltage times Current, so the above is true only
if you're comparing circuits of identical voltages.  Most off the grid
houses use 12- or 24- volt circuits, so for a given power consumption
you'll have 10 times as much current compared to 120- or 240- volt
circuits, and there'll be 10 times the amount of magnetic flux present.
Of course, if the circuits are DC you have (supposedly) benign constant
amplitude EMF instead of the fluxuating field produced by AC, but you'll
still have 10 times more of the stuff at the lower voltages.
 
Anything that causes the voltage to deviate from a pure and steady DC
voltage will produce AC EMF.  If you're charging your battery from a
generator (whatever the prime mover - wind, water or an engine), if
you have a Pulse Duration charging regulator on your solar panels, if
you're feeding an inverter, if you're running a DC motor, even if you're
only cycling a light bulb on and off, you're producing some amount of AC
EMF all of your current carrying DC lines.  And since there's 10 times as
much current present at 12 volts versus 120 volts, you only have to vary
the input voltage by 1/10th of it's DC value to produce as much AC EMF
as if you were using 120 volt power.  In other words, 1.2 volts of
charging ripple in a 12 volt DC system will produce as much EMF as a
conventional 120 VAC circuit.
 
Most digital volt meters will let you measure the ripple on a DC circuit
by simply selecting the AC range while measuring a DC circuit.  The
reading is the amount of ripple present.
 
> Considering that the 40fps scan rate of a TV screen can semi
> comatose the brain into a non-critical state
 
ROFL!!!  I never quite considered it in that light. <g>  I'm not sure
about NZ, but here in the U.S. television scan rates are matched to the
commercial power line frequency, 60 fields per second.  In most
countries with 50 Hz power the scan rates are either 25 or 50 Hz.
Matching the scan rates to the local power frequency allows sets to get
by with considerably less filtering in their power supplies.
 
Enjoy!


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1172 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <d15_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:49:50 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Avery
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?
 
> The application that I am involved in will have 60
> 2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the
> roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
> WA state .
 
> The roof is at an angle of about 15 degrees , fairly flat.
 
Solar panels are about as strong as an equivalent piece of tempered
glass.  You'd probably be better off mounting them at a steeper angle -
this would not only help shed excess snow, but would increase the amount
of power the panels will produce.  For optimum power they should be
mounted at right angles to the sun's path, or at an angle equal to your
local latitude (45 degrees?).
 
It's also very important that none of the panel is shadowed.  All of the
individual cells must be illuminated for the panel to produce power -
shadowing as few as one or two cells can completely shut down the panel.
 
Sounds like you're caught between a couple of extremes.  You could mount
them flush to a reinforcing panel - like glass, you're looking at
supporting weight over a span instead of absolute pressure.  On the
other hand, restricting airflow behind the panel will cause it's
operating temperature to rise, reducing the amount of power it will
produce on a hot summer day.
 
Enjoy!
 
 


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1173 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <d16_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:50:58 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

>> I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling.
>> Nothing is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only
>> converted from one form to another).  The power taken by induction
>> comes from the power company's transmission lines.
 
> Yes, the process is pretty much identical to that used in a
> transformer - and perhaps in a way it is stealing since energy can
> neither be created nor destroyed.  My question here is what would
> happen to this radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and
> "harvest" it?
 
The free air surrounding a high voltage power line (or the earth
surrounding an underground line) causes the line to have a
characteristic impedance along it's length.  A certain amount of the
power company's energy is lost to this environment.
 
If you place a power collection device next to a power line, you've
changed the line's operating environment.  Your device will increase the
operating loss of the line. The amount of increased loss will be the
power you consumed times the efficiency of the collection device (which
has to be less than unity).
 
Whether this effect can be measured or not depends on the percentage of
the line's capacity you're siphoning off.
 
Look at it as another example...  a company has an aquaduct flowing across
your property.  Some of the water is lost as seepage into the ground
immediately adjacent to the aquaduct.  Let's say the soil is clay-like,
so once it's saturated with water the leakage from the aquaduct slows to
virtually nothing.  If you install a pump to collect this groundwater,
and doing so increases the amount of seepage from the aquaduct, are you
guilty of stealing water?
 


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1174 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar South Calculation
Message-ID: <d17_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:52:28 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Richard Russell
Status: O
X-Status: 

> AJF> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as
> AJF> opposed to the  "Magnetic South"?
 
Measure the direction of the sun at Solar Noon.
 
How do you find Solar Noon?   Easy...
 
1) Find the times of local sunrise and local sunset for a particular
day.   Midway between these times is Solar Noon.  At Solar Noon shadows
point to Solar North.
 
2) Put a vertical stick in the ground.  A couple of times an hour mark
the longest point of the stick's shadow with a pebble.  The point where
the shadow is closest to the stick corresponds to Solar Noon.  The
direction of the closest pebble points to Solar North.  Also handy if
you're lost in the desert.
 
Or you could ask at an airport, find a map or do any of the other
hi-tech stuff that has been suggested.
 
Enjoy!
 


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1175 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <d18_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 17 Aug 94 18:55:44 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
-> those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp
 
> dropping the full 6-7 volts across a three terminal regulator will
> drive it into thermal shutdown almost immediately.
 
It's also inefficient as hell.  A three terminal regulator functions as
a variable resistor - current in equals current out, so whatever voltage
you waste across it is wasted power (it gets hot).  If you drop 12 volts
to 6 volts you've wasted half your energy.
 
The simplest and probably most energy efficient solution to powering a
computer from 12 VDC is to get an appropriately sized inverter and plug
the computer's power cord into the inverter's 120 VAC socket.  Modern
inverters operate with over 95% efficiency, so you're not losing much in
the conversion.  The computer's power supply converts 120 VAC to the
various voltages the computer needs at about the same efficiency.  More
importantly, the stock supply contains all of the voltage regulation and
voltage and current limits needed to protect the computer's circuity.
 
Enjoy!
 
 


From John.Taylor@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1176 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!John.Taylor
From: John.Taylor@psybbs.durham.nc.us (John Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Subscribe
Message-ID: <d1a_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 21:09:56 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: taylor12@llnl.gov (John Taylor)
Date: 12 Aug 94 16:09:56 GMT

subscribe renew-energy


From Richard.Boyd@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1177 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Richard.Boyd
From: Richard.Boyd@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Richard Boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: California Regulatory Activities
Message-ID: <d1b_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 23:52:20 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-470
Lines: 35
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:52:20 GMT


A few weeks back I posted a note stating where information regarding
California's ZEV, ULEV, and LEV requirements can be obtained.  That post
has resulted in many request for information sources about all
environmental regulatory activity, not just air pollution.  Therefore, I
am making a public offer which I hope some of you might find useful.

The California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) publishes a monthly
report which summarizes the activity of all environmental regulatory
bodies in the state (including those of some local districts).  If you want
to be put on the mailing list for this publication, you have three choices:

  1.  E-Mail me your name and mailing address, and I will put you on the list.
  2.  Fax your request for addition to the list to (916) 445-5563
  3.  Write to:

                Cal/EPA
                555 Capitol Mall, Suite 235
                Sacramento, CA  95814


Take your pick!  Feel free to circulate this message to anyone who you think
might be interested.

Thanks -


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1178 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Harry.H.Conover
From: Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Message-ID: <d1c_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 00:33:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:The Internet Access Company
Lines: 135
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Date: 12 Aug 94 19:33:14 GMT

Pete Bergstrom (bergstro@src.honeywell.com) wrote:

[snip, snip, for brevity]

: Whether or not Don zaps the gateway today, he'd have absolutely no
: control over the Usenet newsgroup. It would continue on and probably
: have about the same traffic as it does now.

: > Fidonet and Usenet seemingly operate under somewhat different rules
: > of order.

: Absolutely right.

: Pete

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete, you're absolutely right.

However....

When the original Fidonet group linked with Usenet, it was probably
to make the group accessible to a much wider audience, by taking 
advantage of the broader communications capabilities offered by 
Internet.  I doubt if much advance thought was given to the open
nature of an unmoderated, alternative hierarchy Usenet newsgroup.

(The following is not intended to be either a flame or a put-down,
rather, a recap of my observations and impressions.)

The original Fidonet group consisted (and probably still does)
largely of autonomous home energy enthusiasts that as a group
seem to hold, at least when viewed by Usenet criteria, somewhat 
parochial or provincial attitudes, knowledge and viewpoints.

Rather than attempting to understand and benefit from the broad
wealth of technical insight available via Usenet postings, participants
tend to reject and flame any ideas presented that deviate from their
'group think.'  Reactions observed are analogous to those
received when scientific and technical people attempt to engage
in discussions within paranormal, occult, UFO, or New Age type 
groups.

Evidently, belief structures of the 'true believers' are almost always
regarded as sacred, and any challenge to these beliefs is perceived as
blasphemy. It seems strange to find this attitude in a group having
a quasi-technical orientation, but when viewed from my perspective,
it exists here.

Roughly a month ago, I had the audacity to suggest that nuclear power
provide the centralized energy source required for millions of electric or
Hydrogen fueled automobiles.  One posting only!  Almost immediately,
I received a note from Don Kuhla requesting that I refrain from posting
my opinions on nuclear in alt.energy.renewable, and stating that
"We" have already determined that (omitting his hyperbole) this is
not a viable alternative. Regardless of my disagreement with Don's
viewpoint, I have complied with his request.  Flames responding to
that singular post continue to appear through today, ironically many 
complaining about having to wade through all the pro-nuke propaganda
that has recently been posted in the newsgroup!

Other posts offering factual technical information (unrelated 
to nuclear power issues) or attempting to correct posted scientific
or technical misinformation have been either been flamed, 
criticized, or received a luke-warm reception.  Fortunately, non has 
received the emotional, knee-jerk flame response that  my nuclear post 
did, but I understand this.   Anti-nuclear, like anti-smoking, anti-gun, 
and Creationism are religious beliefs to some and as such, are not
open to discussion or debate.

But...

Group participants do have every right to *request* that
certain subject matter or opinions not be posted, however,
within the unmoderated Usenet alternative hierarchy structure, 
none have the right to demand this, nor the power to impose
this will on others.  Most reasonable people will, 
however, comply with such a request if they deem it
appropriate and understand the underlying reasons.
I have done so.

If voluntary compliance is insufficient, the group 
could, I suspect, changed to a moderated group, where
only those postings specifically approved by the newsgroup 
Moderators appear. Unfortunately, this places an
enormous burden on the Moderators, and postings
are usually delayed a substantial period of time, 
making active debate and discussion difficult.  

Naturally, another option is severing  the link with
Fidonet, however, to me this seems to be 'throwing out the
baby with the bath water.'  Fido members would appear
the net losers in such a move, while Internet  readers
and posters would likely remain relatively unaffected. 

Still, I fail to understand the necessity for any of this.
As a quasi-technical newsgroup, there should exist no
need to protect readers from dissenting viewpoints or
off-topic postings, as must be done in, lets say, a
mental health support or recovery group.  Postings of
a technical nature and the statement of a personal opinion
should not trigger an adverse psychological or physical
reaction in normal humans, hence, these is no compelling
need to protect anyone from such posts. 

If someone does not agree with a post, they can simply
skip or ignore it.  Here, resource expenditure is minimal.
Usenet readers have the option of using a Kill File as well,
gives them the ability to effectively disappear all postings
from selected individuals or subjects.  I don't know if this 
capability exists on Fidonet or not, however, likely an 
equivalent capability is likely present.  Unfortunately, 
many prefer to rant and flame, rather than to simply
ignore something.  In this respect, the Fidonet
people don't differ from Usenet participants.  

All in all, its like the man said: "If you want to play in the
big leagues, you better learn hardball."  As applied to 
Internet and Usenet, this translates to learning tolerance
and respect for others.  Even if you have no respect
for a person's opinion, you *must* respect his/her
right to hold an opinion.  If you find this impossible,
you are in the wrong place.

Kindest regards...  

                                           Harry C.


PS.  Yes, I know that I have flamed on occasion.
        We're all human!  (Whoops, that would be
        considered a flame in 'alt.aliens'...)


From Helen.W_.St_.Cyr@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 21 21:07:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1179 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Helen.W_.St_.Cyr
From: Helen.W_.St_.Cyr@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Subscribe
Message-ID: <d1d_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 02:26:32 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: 5889ww@svpal.org (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Date: 12 Aug 94 21:26:32 GMT



On Fri, 12 Aug 1994, John Taylor wrote:

> subscribe renew-energy
> 
> 


From David.Dutton@p69.f88.n119.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 21 21:07:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1180 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-119-88-69!David.Dutton
From: David.Dutton@p69.f88.n119.z1.fidonet.org (David Dutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching induction from power lines
Message-ID: <d22_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 18 Aug 94 14:31:45 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Athenon 916-343-7866 28.8K 1.5GB 3Lines
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Proud
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (16 Aug 94) Brian Proud wrote to Tim Mullen...

 BP> Hi Tim,

 TM>    I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
 TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
 TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?

 BP> Yep, that and also to keep my kids from sticking just about everything
they
 BP> can think of in them.

 Heheheh my parents never did that, and I DID stick my fingers into
 elec. outlets and got shocked MANY MANY times... but wall outlet
 will only kill if in the right circumstances.. 1) You are grounded,
 2) standing in conductive liquid (water, etc), or 3) let it pass across
 your cheast (heart)...  LUCKLY for me I used to stick my right hand thumb
 and index finger... so the electricity never left my hand... and
 conditions 1 & 2 were not present... I really think those plastic protectors
 ARE a good idea... I was LUCKY... other children may not be.


From Anthony.Ehrsam@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 21 21:07:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1181 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Anthony.Ehrsam
From: Anthony.Ehrsam@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Anthony Ehrsam)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: new carrier
Message-ID: <d47_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 15 Aug 94 03:00:14 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just wanted to say Hi, from a new carrier.....
Anthony Ehrsam

         BARTER TOWN BBS * SYSOP:FESTUS * DENTON,TX. * 817-566-0245  
              300-14.400 BAUD ACCESS ** 24 HRS. ** VBBS v.6.12            
         VirtualNET @1817010 * TriangleNET @1817101 * FILES * GAMES


From Chris.Weatherwax@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 21 21:07:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1182 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-2250-21-0!Chris.Weatherwax
From: Chris.Weatherwax@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Weatherwax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: More power...
Message-ID: <d48_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 16:24:20 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


     I think that solar power is the best energy source in the long run.
Hydroelectric is good, too, but then all those phriggin' redskins and
enviro-freaks are complaining about the salmon runoffs... WHO CARES?!? I, for
one, don't really like fish, and even though they are a part of the
ecosystem, they ain't THAT big a part... BUT, with all these liberalized
politicians and news media, it looks like hydroelectric is going to the dung
heap...
     As for waste-energy? Screw waste-energy, try concentrating on
waste-nothing!!! Those phriggin' W-E plants barely produce crap for energy,
and they spend all that money on it!!! They could build a solar plant that
produces 10 times more energy for less than the W-E plant... 
     Then there's wind power. Good for midwestern states, but not that good
for WA and ID... Not enough wind!
     Then there's nuclear. Nuclear would be VERY cool if we could find a good
way to get rid of the waste... As for all these meltdowns? Those are caused
because they are run by a bunch of Homers that know JACK $#!% about Nuclear
Physics... And as for Chernobyl? Russians. What more need be said?
     Just a little friendly info. from your friendly friend, 
                                                       -Kreiger


From clayglen@netcom.com Sun Aug 21 21:07:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1183 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!clayglen
From: clayglen@netcom.com (Clay Glenn)
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Message-ID: <clayglenCuwDoH.JBr@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <johnson.777254352@wrs.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 18:21:52 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

David Johnson (johnson@wrs.com) wrote:
: brop9555_utdallas_edu@psybbs.durham.nc.us (brop9555@utdallas.edu) writes:

[...]

:   Mercedes, the leader in hydrogen 
: >powered internal combustion engine development, has agreed to share its 
: >superior experience and knowledge with Mazda in turn for co-development on 
: >the Hydrogen Wankel project.

: That's mighty white of them.

What does the above comment mean?  Sounds pretty racist, but maybe I'm 
misunderstanding some obscure colloquialism.

-- 
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\      O 
 >>>  Clay Glenn    clayglen@netcom.com  >>>    /|\
///////////////////////////////////////////     /'\


From conover@max.tiac.net Sun Aug 21 21:07:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1184 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Mazda Water Engine?
Date: 21 Aug 1994 18:59:23 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <33886b$i4j@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <7ae_9408111651@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <johnson.777254352@wrs.com> <clayglenCuwDoH.JBr@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Clay Glenn (clayglen@netcom.com) wrote:

: : That's mighty white of them.

: What does the above comment mean?  Sounds pretty racist, but maybe I'm 
: misunderstanding some obscure colloquialism.


Sounds "pretty racist"????   Good grief!   You gotta be kidding, or
at least I hope you are.

"That's mighty white of them" = That's decent of them... or... 
                                That's nice of them...

If you interpret this as being racist, I'd hate to hear your reaction
to the well known phrase: 'a black comedy'.   ;-)

Perhaps the original "mighty white of them" posting was intended as
a form of sarcasm, but possibly not.  (I personally read it as sarcasm.)

                                      Harry C.



From gnudd@bga.com Sun Aug 21 21:07:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1185 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!slip195.bga.com!user
From: gnudd@bga.com (Greg Nudd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: 21 Aug 1994 19:46:52 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <gnudd-210894144258@slip195.bga.com>
References: <ff4_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip195.bga.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <ff4_9408160452@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim) wrote:

> hazard.
> 
> Another reference is _The Toxic Cloud: The Poisoning of America's Air_ by 
> Michael H. Brown (1987) which notes:
> 
>         "Among the highly mutagenic (and in one expert's memorable words, 
>          'horrendously carcinogenic') emissions are also nitro-PAHs       
>          [Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) such as nitrofluranthene,     
>          which come from diesel combustion." p. 259
> 
> and:
> 
>         "...a study by the National Cancer Institute found truck drivers  
>          exposed to diesel pollution in Detroit to have 11.9 times the    
>          lower urinary cancer of an unexposed group.  A similar study     
>          showed the same in London.  Each year, said NRDC, from thirty to 
>          eight thousand excess lung cancers might be caused in America by 
>          diesel pollutants.  The particulates are not ony chemically      
>          overloaded but also of the size that can penetrate the lung." p. 
>          260
> 

Diesel PM is really nasty. Studies of traffic tunnels have put the PAH
content at 30% by weight. This is nasty stuff, benzo(a)pyrene being the
worst. And if breathing it wasn't bad enough, the stuff bioaccumulates in
plants and animals used for food and mild. You REALLY don't want to be
running one of these things in your garden. For that matter, I wouldn't
garden near a highway.

Bear in mind, though, that you can minimize this risk by buying an
efficient engine and keeping it well tuned. 


-- 
Greg Nudd

gnudd@bga.com
finger for PGP public key
WWW home page: http://www.realtime.net/~gnudd/


From dbrewste@netcom.com Sun Aug 21 21:07:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1186 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: new carrier
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuwHu3.BMy@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <d47_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 19:51:38 GMT
Lines: 9
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anthony Ehrsam (Anthony.Ehrsam@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Just wanted to say Hi, from a new carrier.....
: Anthony Ehrsam

Sorry to hear you're a carrier, please use a condom over your keyboard to 
protect the rest of us.  Thanks in advance for you consideration.
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Sun Aug 21 21:07:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1187 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: huhh?
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuwI4L.C57@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <d0f_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 19:57:56 GMT
Lines: 17
Status: O
X-Status: 

Zachariah Czeck (Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:


: TM>   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
: TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
: TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?
:  ++

: you are joking aren't you Tim?
:  zachariahCzeck

Those covers help.  Without them one of my outlets lost 37 volts of 
energy in a day.    Since my power company charges .09 per Watt that can 
really add up.
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From kencorn@clark.net Sun Aug 21 21:07:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1188 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!kencorn
From: kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T. Cornelius)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cow slurry methane di
Date: 21 Aug 1994 22:51:11 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <338lov$amg@clarknet.clark.net>
References: <759_9408162158@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

ARTHUR TORREY (ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

:  -=> Lo; and Gale Barrows pronounced unto Andy Dingley about Cow slurry methane
: diges<=-

:  AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, to deal
: wit
:  AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.
:  
:  AD>What can you do with the gas from such a digester ? Has anyone used it for
:  AD>running a generator ? Water & space heating ?  How "clean" is the gas, in
:  AD>terms of burner clogging ?


The "Mother Earth News" was making a big thing about manure-fed digesters 
maybe 15 years ago.  As I recall they made a big fuss about some guy that 
had a 10,000 pig farm and thus plenty of manure.  I think he could run a 
12 hp engine with his output.  The setup was pretty much the same as the 
natural gas fueled engines for the center pivot irrigation systems.  Not 
very practical for those not owning lots of manure-producing animals.  

 --
Kenneth T. Cornelius  
kencorn@clark.net     
                  


From ckw@ulysses.caltech.edu Mon Aug 22 13:19:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1189 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!nntp-server.caltech.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: ckw@ulysses.caltech.edu (Charles Witham)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: NOT theft
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 02:34:49 +0530
Organization: Caltech
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <ckw-220894023449@131.215.250.79>
References: <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.215.250.79
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck) wrote:
> 
>  This really is MEANINGLESS to the issue but am i correct in thinking 
> that this is not actually using the power companies electricity, but 
> converting their waste into useable energy.  The only loss the 
> pCompanies face is that people no longer need to PAY them for eletric.
>  anybody?
> 

Not having read the whole thread, I'll venture to say that by
generating power via induction _from_ the power company's electric
lines, you generate an opposing field in their lines.  This field
would have the effect of decreasing the amount of available power
so yes, you would be using their electricity.

peace

Charles Witham
ckw@ulysses.caltech.edu


From al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Aug 22 13:19:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1190 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!al064
From: al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Godwin)
Subject: Heart DC to AC Inverters
Message-ID: <Cuxpn3.4Kt@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Godwin)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 11:37:51 GMT
Lines: 8
Status: O
X-Status: 


Does anyone have experience with the Heart Interface Freedom series of
inverters? Are there any reviews available?
--
Charles Godwin     -> The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers
Computer Associates, Realia Group
tel:(613) 761-1430 
fax:(613) 761-1422


From howard.smith@ahabbs.com Mon Aug 22 13:19:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1191 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!xnet!quake.xnet.com!sid!howard.smith
From: howard.smith@ahabbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: New conference
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 01:44:00 GMT
Message-ID: <9408220630191@ahabbs.com>
Organization: AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
Distribution: world
Lines: 20   
Status: O
X-Status: 

This message was from JOHN STANLEY to HOWARD SMITH
originally in conference HydroComm on H2BBS (SOLAR HYDROGEN BBS)
and was forwarded to you by HOWARD SMITH
                    ----------------------------------------
HS>You all should try the new alt.energy.renewables conference (#57) which
HS>we get from the AHA Tempe BBS and their new Internet/Usenet interface.
HS>The conference is also crossed with the Homepower echo on Fidonet
HS>through Don Kulha's Sonoma Online BBS. There should be a big
HS>international audience and lots of traffic.

The distribution of this newsgroup is rather odd. From my Unix shell
account at gate.net it is an active conference, however from my account
at win.net (my UUCP server), I only get a few posts from Internet
addresses and none of the stuff from FidoNet.

John  (jstanley@solar.win.net)
---
 þ OLX 1.52 þ Chemistry is just smelly Physics.
---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 13:19:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1192 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-3625-470-0!Rick.Munday
From: Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org (Rick Munday)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Sources for Solar Cells &
Message-ID: <7e2_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 01:36:00 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (205) 661-8945
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 


      While moving through Cyberspace Ian Woofenden was heard to say:

 IW> Get a subscription, or at least a sample issue, of _Home Power_
 IW> magazine.

 IW> Home Power Magazine
 IW> PO Box 520
 IW> Ashland, OR 97520

 IW> subs & back issues 916-475-0830

 IW> $15 per year. $20 international surface.

[address left for others]

Ian,

	Thanks for the reply!  I'll check it out as soon as I get to town to
get a copy.

TTFN,

Rick



~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 <NR>

... No matter where you go . . . there you are.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 13:19:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1193 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-153-9115-0!Jim.Fitzsimmons
From: Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: RV Solar
Message-ID: <7f7_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 13:07:52 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Blue Moon BBS (Zulu Hours Only)
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cyburg
Status: O
X-Status: 


 C> Has any one set up a solar systems for off grid or RVs.

 C> hi I am Cynthia and I  live off-grid.  We power our home/office form pvs. 
 C> It is also our business. (Offline Independent Energy Systems).  We are
 C> very experienced in this matter.  We have been designing and installing
 C> independent power systems, both large and small, for over 11 years.  I
 C> enjoy sharing our experince with others.  We also have mail order
 C> customers all over the country.  The energy efficient life style is very
 C> satisfying.  If you have questions please let me answer them for you. 
 C> Cynthia Loweburg
 Hello Cynthia,
 Well I would like to be in a similar situation at some point of time in my
life.Just how many Solar Panels would a person require for an RV that was fully
equiped with Fridge/stove etc..
 What or how many Deep cycle batteries and also I recall that a regulating
system is required.Can you get alittle specific about items ie:mfg's,cost.?
Thanks.I look forward to your reply.ttul..


From Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 13:19:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1194 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!1-351-299-2!Brian.Proud
From: Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Proud)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <7fb_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 18 Aug 94 06:43:19 GMT
Organization: Fidonet: Here There Be Dragons... (OS/2 2.11)
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO unreg at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Ian,

 IW> When *I* think of matching units in refrigeration, my biggest
 IW> concern is whether the front of my Sunfrost refer matches the rest
 IW> of my kitchen <bg>.

Sunfrost.  Those are supposed to be pretty good fridges.  What do you think of
yours???  We just might be moving to a location where electric is quite
expensive so a good low-energy fridge would be important.
 
 Brian


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Mon Aug 22 22:32:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1195 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: NOT theft
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cuy3oy.80I@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 16:41:20 GMT
References: <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 28
Status: O
X-Status: 

Zachariah Czeck (Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: Tuesday 16-Aug-94 01:26:45
: santarosa,ca,usa

: bullSteamingCrap,  those powerlines run all over MY planet spilling 
: out electromagnetic waves and magnetic field E-V-E-R-Y INCH OF THE WAY,
: into the air, into my head...    
: they are free waves in the air (a waste product no less),  and you may
: use them(or not:)  as YOU see fit!

:  This really is MEANINGLESS to the issue but am i correct in thinking 
: that this is not actually using the power companies electricity, but 
: converting their waste into useable energy.  The only loss the 
: pCompanies face is that people no longer need to PAY them for eletric.
:  anybody?

"we" would suggest wandering over to the JC and take any basic electronics
(or "we" suppose physics) course and you'd be able to answer that question
yourself. 

Perhaps you could even be one of the first on this net to know the difference
between energy and power! 'course then "we" would have to
expell you from any future conversations if you insist on dwelling
on that boring mainstream non-alternate reality.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:32:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1196 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Air Conditioner
Message-ID: <471_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 00:25:21 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 13 Aug 94 19:25:21 GMT



On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Eric Toler wrote:

> Hooking up pvs to a high efficiency heat pump is not a bad idea.  However,
> a better idea, touched on by the native mediterrainian architecture
> example, is to lower the cooling load as much as possible up front.......
> 
> THINK SYSTEMS, NOT COMPONENTS!!
> 
> Eric Toler
> Rocky Mountain Institute
> 

    Excellent point Eric and I thank you for pointing it out. It's taken 
me a while to figure this out and in looking back I can see where I've 
erred some in this respect in the past. It's all to easy to get 
tunnelvision and concentrate on just one part of a complex system to the 
detriment of overall system performance.....

     I went to the SF International airport with a friend recently who 
was preparing to bid on a new CAD (-Dispatch) system for the security 
communications system there. In one of the dispatchers rooms they had 
just done a lighting "upgrade"....and replaced their flourescent lighting 
with 28, 75w incandescent lights. The alledged reason for this was the 
flicker associated with their old lights. In addition to the CAD system 
they were planning on upgrading their airconditioning system since the 
old one wasn't able to cool the room sufficently anymore. I pointed out 
that they could likely replace the IC bulbs with compact flourescents and 
avoid the cost of the airconditioning upgrade as well as saving over 
$1000 per year on electricity plus the savings on maintanence. They never 
considered the fact that their A/C would be affected by the lighting when 
they "upgraded" the lights. Additionally their UPS system to keep the 
dispatch center running also sourced the lighting. I also silently 
wondered how long it would take to "cook" the dispatchers out of the room 
when the A/C (which didn't have backup power) went down (they have some 
new dual pane sealed windows....).

     DCK

P.S. - Although outside of the relm of the project I went their to 
discuss I'm writing the dispatch center supervisor a note outlining these 
considerations and suggestions.


From Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:32:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1197 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Don.Kulha
From: Don.Kulha@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: SOLAR-1 CDROM
Message-ID: <472_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 00:52:36 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Date: 13 Aug 94 19:52:36 GMT


We're publishing a CDROM you might want to know about....

*SOLAR-1* Renewable Energy. ISO 9660 format, 325m/3400+ files
Content: Text/graphics Home Power Magazine #1-37, Various texts,
newsletters, graphics and programs on renewables; Wind, Hydro,
PV's, Biofuels, hydrogen, batteries, controls, thermal, glazings,
controls, solar cookers and more (45mb).

Also: A general collection of Mac and PC software (shareware, PD and
demos), GIF's and texts are included. Mac Programs require macbinary
conversion before use.

Available Now, $29US postpaid. International Air delivery $3, CA
add 7.5% sales tax.  Sonoma Online, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407
Visa/MC orders please call Home Power Magazine @ (916)475-0830

For info: dkulha@crl.com, send SASE, call (707)545-7533 or FAX (707)
526-9473. If we're out please leave us your fax number. Thanks...DCK


From Datnoid_aol_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:32:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1198 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Datnoid_aol_com
From: Datnoid_aol_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Datnoid@aol.com)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <473_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 04:45:01 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 59
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Datnoid@aol.com
Date: 13 Aug 94 23:45:01 GMT

Several weeks ago I posted a note of my recent successfull transformation of
a "junked" Hotpoint refrigerator/freezer into a highly efficient solar
powered refrigerator.  What follows is a brief summary:

> >    My "new" refrigerator uses 44 amphours per day@12vdc from 4 used M51
Arco
> >    solar modules collectively producing 8amps @ 15.5vdc into a 460ah
nicad
> >    battery.  That's less than 550 watts per day!

Mr. Lewis corrects with:
> > Thats 550 watt hours per day.
> > A watt is a unit of power. A watt hour is a unit of  Energy.

Mr. Kulhua adds:
>      Greg, while I can appreciate your points I have to point out that 
> most of the folks here are not in the university environment, don't 
> really give much of a damn if they use exactly the right unit expression 
> as long as they are understood, and will consider all your posts 
> imploring them to worry about such a real pain in the ass. Feel free to 
> if you wish but don't be suprised if we're more interested in what we can 
> do with the technology on a practical basis and communicate about it.
>       Just trying to save you a little frustration guy.
>          DCK
>  
> Mr. Lewis replies:
You've indicated you don't care if you communicate clearly or not.
Granted the above example is not very confusing, unlike some of the
others. The difference between energy and power is important for anyone
wanting to install alternative energy equipment.  If you want to 
taken seriously by people who understand this difference than
get it right.  I was trying to save you the frustration of not 
being taken seriously. You have saved me some frustration. I know not
to bother reading your posts. And if most of the posts make the same
errors I will not bother with the users group at all.  Given
that years ago I worked for an alternative energy company and am
a few months away from a Phd in physics, I may have something to
say.  It might be your loss.


Which brings us back to the original post.
In reply to Mr. Lewis I would rather spread the word of successful uses of AE
for personal use rather than debate whether or not the proper unit of energy
was used.  Mr. Lewis only obscurs the fact that the design and retrofitting
of a "junked" refrigerator with a highly efficient compressor/evaporator
coupled with added insulation worked!

I've kept a track of the energy use for the last two weeks and have found it
to consistently use less that .55kwh per day in energy consumption.  Or, an
average of 44Ah @12vdc in a 24 hour period.

Either way the story is the same. Anyone who uses alternative energy for home
use would understand in an instant what I originally posted. 
Please don't waste my precious online time with picking nits.

  


From James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:32:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1199 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!James.VanBokkelen
From: James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: One vote for A.E.R. on the Usenet!
Message-ID: <474_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 05:13:19 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:ELF Communications
Lines: 44
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Date: 14 Aug 94 00:13:19 GMT

Some of the problem is structural - Internet News implies that a fair
fraction of people reading it have high-bandwidth connections, and use
newsreaders with fair to good ability to just blow away garbage
threads and twits who start religious arguments for no better reason
than to annoy the 'enemy'.  So, trash is generally tolerated on
NetNews in a way that might really bother someone who's paying for a
slow connection to a UI that doesn't support killfiles, or makes them
download most or all of every message before reading it.

I'm on the Internet side, and unlikely to call Oregon from my home,
so I hope I'm perceived as useful.  Ultimately, the decision to gateway
lies with the BBS sysop and the gateway maintainer, but as people
voice their opinions, keep in mind that there are alternatives to the
current NetNews situation that don't shut out the Internet entirely.

First, provided someone wanted to make the effort to be moderator, you
could change the group to be moderated.  This means that some godlike
being passes judgement on each message posted before it gets
distributed.  Many of the more flame-prone groups in NetNews have
split, with the hardshell types with time on their hands staying with
the unmoderated group.  You keep the broad distribution and low
administrative load of NetNews.

Second, still requiring effort on someone's part, but not nearly as
much, you could convert to a mailing list.  People e-mail requests to
subscribe, and the administrator can be arrogant and flush those who
aren't felt to fit the plan.  This loads the system handling
distribution more heavily, and it requires more effort and
sophistication for a person to join, but it is probably practical for
up to ~400 members.

Both cases require a time commitment from someone who's more than a
bit sophisticated about NNTP and SMTP, and probably shoould have
sysadmin privilidges on an Internet node with a high-bandwidth
connection to the rest of the world (in other words, not me these
days).

jbvb
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From Jeff.Shapiro@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:33:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1200 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jeff.Shapiro
From: Jeff.Shapiro@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeff Shapiro)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Sources for Solar Cells &
Message-ID: <475_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 12 Aug 94 19:12:09 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jshapiro@nrel.nrel.gov (Jeff Shapiro)
Date: 12 Aug 94 14:12:09 GMT

Rick Munday (Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

: Hi gang!

: 	Just checked into this group for the first time and have alot of
: 	questions but, I'll stick with an easy one first:
: 	
: 	Where can I get some catalogs on Solar Power equipment? i.e. Cells,
: 	Panels, regulators, circuit breakers and etc...
: 	
: 	I lived in Germany for several years and it's easy to find that info
: 	there.  I'm going to the library to read up on basics.  Now am looking
: 	for sources for the appropriate materials/parts.
: 	
: Thanks & btw, reply here or to - rick.munday@dibbs.com - via Internet.

: Rick


There are several suppliers listed on the URl:
http://www.nrel.gov/research/division/pv/sunrayce/info/products/solarcells.html

These are the list of acceptable solar cells suppliers for Sunrayce 95.
If these people don't have what you're looking for, I'm sure they can
point you in the right direction.

Jeff Shapiro


From Carrie.Schneider@psybbs.durham.nc.us Mon Aug 22 22:33:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1201 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Carrie.Schneider
From: Carrie.Schneider@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Carrie Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Biofuels
Message-ID: <476_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 09:18:28 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov (Carrie Schneider)
Date: 13 Aug 94 04:18:28 GMT

Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks) writes:

>        There are definitely problems with castor bean oil.  It spoils
>        and curds and plugs up oil systems.  Castor is a great racing
>        lube but for everyday use it doesn't cut it.  We used to burn
>        castor in 2 stroke motorcycles and the premix would only be good
>        for the day.  In 4 stroke engines the oil is drained after the
>        race usually while the engine is still warm.

On the other hand, a simple conversion of vegetable oil to methyl
esters solves this gumming problem. Europe is already using
"biodiesel" ( mostly from rapeseed oil) at a commercial scale. There
are efforts underway in this country to produce enough to sell.

Carrie Schneider

-- 
Carrie Schneider, Ph.D.
National Renewable Energy Lab
1617 Cole Boulevard
Golden, CO 80401 303-384-6119


From Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1202 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n106!f941!Terry.goode
From: Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Terry goode)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <479_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 02:29:24 GMT
Organization: [Fido] THE GOLDEN COCO'S OTHER COMPUTER
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JA> A snow fall of 20 - 30 feet would not be surprising at this 
 JA> location and it would probably pile up to this depth on top
 JA> of the modules.
just a suggestion but if your going to use the panels for remote rest stops
,why not set the panels up with a weight trip mech.that will lower the panels
on a pivot point and when the weight of just the panel is back to normal just
raise the panel back to upright position.
something like a small car elect window motor with gear should do it with out
using to much power loss.
terry g.


From Randy.Tolleson@f801.n130.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1203 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n130!f801!Randy.Tolleson
From: Randy.Tolleson@f801.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Randy Tolleson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Flywheel Ev Prototyp
Message-ID: <47e_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 03:52:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] CONNECT! Arlington TX  817-468-4508
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC>  RR> I would be interested in hearing more about the AFS (what
The catch is in the precesion of the flywheel.  If a force is applied
 at 90 degrees to the axis of spin the flywheel will precess at 90
 degree angle to the applied force.  This means that a flywheel
 fastened to our planet must deal with the frictions associated with
 180 degrees of rotation while ressistive forces are applied at 90
 degrees to the spin axis.  
On a car the spin axis can only be designed to be perpendicular to
 one plane.  This means you can have a gyro flipping your car as you
 round a corner or climb a hill....take your pick.


From Randy.Tolleson@f801.n130.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:04 EDT 1994
Article: 1204 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n130!f801!Randy.Tolleson
From: Randy.Tolleson@f801.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Randy Tolleson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emmisions Testing/EV's
Message-ID: <47f_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 03:58:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] CONNECT! Arlington TX  817-468-4508
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC>  -=> Quoting Arthur Torrey to Tony Cygan <=-
TC> 
TC>  AT> I would point out that according to studies done in CA,
TC> only about
TC>  AT> 10% of the cars on the road account for about 90% of the
TC> automotive
My vote is to get the government out of the monitoring you and me
 business.  Anyone that believes the few remaining cars with poor
 emmisions controls is damaging our quality of life enough to warrant
 the expense on this technology (paid or by me and you) needs to get
 off the dole.
`


From John.Blevins@f714.n362.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:04 EDT 1994
Article: 1205 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n362!f714!John.Blevins
From: John.Blevins@f714.n362.z1.fidonet.org (John Blevins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <4b4_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 04:29:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The KASTLE ... Getting Better Every Day ... Chatt. TN.
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Dillman
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting William Goodson to Dick Dillman <=-

 
 > [I wondered aloud how to convert my desktop machine into a 12VDC beastie]
 
 DD> Would you consider a lap top?  I guess you already have the
 DD> desk top 486 but it would be SO much easier to use the lap
 DD> top, especially if you got one that expects 12VDC from its
 DD> power unit.  But you've probably thought of that and
 DD> rejected the idea, right?

"Us heroes allways have to do things the hard way."  BTW poor grammar is
intentional.  "I are illiterate in at least three different languages."

... Save water; shower with a friend.


From Jim.Coleman@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1206 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n324!f127!Jim.Coleman
From: Jim.Coleman@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Coleman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: IDEAS FOR WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <4b8_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 18 Aug 94 07:53:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Computer Castle, Newton NH   1-603-382-3471
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Julie Seberry
Status: O
X-Status: 

-JS> Gale, wow, that sounds like a great idea. I am REALLY new
-JS> at this and have to learn more

 Greetings Julie....I just wanted to let you know there's another
 almost newbie here. :)

 BTW somebody mentioned an interesting radio show broadcast over the
 National Public Radio system on Friday nights that covered the so-called
 fringe sciences....which is my kinda programming. In the Boston area, it's
 on WBUR 87.9 or 89.7 FM. I'm sure that you can find it wherever you are.

Salut for now.


From Scott.Currier@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org Mon Aug 22 22:33:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1207 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n324!f127!Scott.Currier
From: Scott.Currier@f127.n324.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Currier)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Info on solar cells requested.
Message-ID: <4bb_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 19 Aug 94 23:15:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Computer Castle, Newton NH   1-603-382-3471
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 



I'd like some information on solar cells. Essentially what I need to know is 
how much power can be gotten from, and a ballpark price of a solar panel that 
is about 1 or 2 sq feet.

Is anyone aware of any computer power supplies for desktop computers that run 
on 12, 18, or 24v DC. We'd like to convert our board over to 12 volts but 
would rather not convert from 12 volts up to 120 only to be stepped right back 
down to 12v again.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


From bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM Mon Aug 22 22:33:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1208 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM (Bruce Carroll - Sun BOS Systems Product Assurance CONTRACTOR)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Date: 22 Aug 1994 19:36:36 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408221906.AA00618@junkyard2.East.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


Is there anything available to capture electricty from a woodstove, 
(steam engine, etc). I am looking to generate a small amount to help 
keep my batteries charged during the winter. 

Thankx!


Bruce Carroll


From droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV Mon Aug 22 22:33:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1209 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Drinking water storage in pesticide tanks.
Date: 22 Aug 1994 21:37:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 26
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407227775.AA777593562@MAIL.FWS.GOV>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


     I live off the grid on a farm near Washington D.C.  I have a deep well 
     pump that I switch on manually to pump up a 200 gallon plastic 
     pesticide tank (bought new not used!) on the second floor of our 
     house.  From that tank I filter the water and pump, using a small 
     in-line pump, to a pressure tank and from there to the houses plumbing 
     system.  I have two classes of questions.
     
     1.  I have read that certain types of plastic tanks are approved for 
     storage of drinking water and others are not.  My tank was obviously 
     designed to hold pesticides not drinking water, however, I wonder is 
     this a big deal?  Is there bad plastic?  Am I killing my family by 
     making them drink this water?  Should I get the water tested?  If so, 
     for what?
     
     2.  I have run the supply pipe from the deep well to the bottom of the 
     water tank and have put a U-turn at the end of the pipe so that the 
     water stream shoots back up the tank rather than stirring up the mud 
     on the bottom.  Am I contaminating my well by having the water from 
     the tank always in direct contact with the supply water to the well?  
     How much should I worry about the odd bug that falls in?
     
     Thanks.
     
     Sam Droege
     Droeges@mail.fws.gov


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Mon Aug 22 22:33:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1210 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Drinking water storage in pesticide tanks.
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CuyIJ3.HKD@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 22:01:50 GMT
References: <9407227775.AA777593562@MAIL.FWS.GOV>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 41
Status: O
X-Status: 

droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV (droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV) wrote:

:      I live off the grid on a farm near Washington D.C.  I have a deep well 
:      pump that I switch on manually to pump up a 200 gallon plastic 
:      pesticide tank (bought new not used!) on the second floor of our 
:      house.  From that tank I filter the water and pump, using a small 
:      in-line pump, to a pressure tank and from there to the houses plumbing 
:      system.  I have two classes of questions.
:      
:      1.  I have read that certain types of plastic tanks are approved for 
:      storage of drinking water and others are not.  My tank was obviously 
:      designed to hold pesticides not drinking water, however, I wonder is 
:      this a big deal?  Is there bad plastic?  Am I killing my family by 
:      making them drink this water?  Should I get the water tested?  If so, 
:      for what?
:

Well I for 1 sure wouldn't drink out of it, and certainly not let my kids
without doing some really careful checking. All kinds of noxious
stuff can leach out of some plastics that isn't going to do your body
any good at all. Flushing toilets, washing clothes, fine- drinking: no way.

Now of course if you can find out exactly what plastic this was made from and
that it's an approved plastic and if you throroughly cleaned sterilized it
I would think you'd be OK.

:      2.  I have run the supply pipe from the deep well to the bottom of the 
:      water tank and have put a U-turn at the end of the pipe so that the 
:      water stream shoots back up the tank rather than stirring up the mud 
:      on the bottom.  Am I contaminating my well by having the water from 
:      the tank always in direct contact with the supply water to the well?  
:      How much should I worry about the odd bug that falls in?
:      

At a minimum I'd have some nice backflow valves to remove danger of
contamination, though this sounds much less risky to me than drinking
all the leachants that you might be drinking now.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From DBHolmes@aol.com Mon Aug 22 22:33:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1211 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Drinking water storage in pesticide tanks.
Date: 22 Aug 1994 23:55:07 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 27
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408221930.tn92610@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding the choice of plastic/polymer for drinking water storage -- this is
a non-trivial question. A compelling answer may not be easy to find.

You might want to consider the fact that only a very few types of plastic
have been approved (by the building code authorities) for drinking water
pipes - PVC and in some parts of the country, as I recall, polybutylene and
polyethylene. You first need to find out what your "pesticide" tank is made
of. If not one of the approved pipe materials, I would reconsider storing my
families drinking water in it. Your local building inspector could tell you
what sort of pipe is approved in your area. Or, your local building supply
house will probably be able to tell you what is approved, as that is probably
what they sell the most of.

I would add that you should remember that water is an incredibly effective
solvent -- given enough time, it will dissolve almost anything. So be very
careful of any polymer which is admixed with fillers, plasticizers,
colorants, antioxidants, stabilizers, etc. PVC, typically, contains several
such additives. Polyethylene, especially the high-density kind, is generally
available without these sorts of additives. The maker of the tank should be
willing and able to tell you precisely what grade of polymer, from which
chemical company, was used. Then you could contact the polymer maker to ask
about additives. There is almost no such thing as a "pure" polymer; they all
have other ingredients, including residual catalyst from the process of
making the polymer itself.

DBHolmes



From muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com Mon Aug 22 22:33:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1212 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: water tanks etc
Date: 23 Aug 1994 01:04:54 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 56
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408230015.AA10712@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

From:	ESDS01::"droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV" 22-AUG-1994 17:15:10.91
To:	renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
CC:	
Subj:	Drinking water storage in pesticide tanks.


     I live off the grid on a farm near Washington D.C.  I have a deep well 
     pump that I switch on manually to pump up a 200 gallon plastic 
     pesticide tank (bought new not used!) on the second floor of our 
     house.  From that tank I filter the water and pump, using a small 
     in-line pump, to a pressure tank and from there to the houses plumbing 
     system.  I have two classes of questions.
     
     1.  I have read that certain types of plastic tanks are approved for 
     storage of drinking water and others are not.  My tank was obviously 
     designed to hold pesticides not drinking water, however, I wonder is 
     this a big deal?  Is there bad plastic?  Am I killing my family by 
     making them drink this water?  Should I get the water tested?  If so, 
     for what?
     
     2.  I have run the supply pipe from the deep well to the bottom of the 
     water tank and have put a U-turn at the end of the pipe so that the 
     water stream shoots back up the tank rather than stirring up the mud 
     on the bottom.  Am I contaminating my well by having the water from 
     the tank always in direct contact with the supply water to the well?  
     How much should I worry about the odd bug that falls in?
     
     Thanks.
     
     Sam Droege
     Droeges@mail.fws.gov

Water is such a good solvent that there is probably NO tank/pipe material that
won't  alter the composition of the water.  Polypropylene and polyethylene are
two materials often considered acceptable for water storage.  Quite possibly
the tank is made of materials similar or identical to materials the maker also
uses to make drinking water tanks.  Assuming you know where you bought it,
and/or the name of the manufacturer, you should be able to trace things down. 
I'd inquire tactfully:  if you just ask if pesticide tanks are OK for drinking
water you might get a liability-concern-driven answer (!).

On bugs falling in:  sounds like my grandmothers cistern!  Why not just cover
the tank?  My well has a snake living in it!  Ugh.

On the pump discharge:  this should be above the highest possible water level,
so there will always be an air gap to prevent backflow.  Otherwise, as the pump
shuts off there will be a strong suction as the water column wants to retreat
down the well.  A simple check valve will leak enough to allow contamination
(if present) into the well.  Your COULD create a safe submerged-outlet system
with a combination of check valves and vacuum breakers, but why bother?

Why is there mud in the bottom of the tank?  best to keep this cleaned out, as
the mud, especially combined with light, will creat a nice medium for buggies
to grow on.  A deep well pumping mud raises another set of questions.....

regards


From dbrewste@netcom.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1213 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!biosci!agate!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: NOT theft
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuyu16.GHA@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <Cuy3oy.80I@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 02:10:17 GMT
Lines: 21
Status: O
X-Status: 

Stan Bischof (stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com) wrote:

: "we" would suggest wandering over to the JC and take any basic electronics
: (or "we" suppose physics) course and you'd be able to answer that question
: yourself. 

: Perhaps you could even be one of the first on this net to know the difference
: between energy and power! 'course then "we" would have to
: expell you from any future conversations if you insist on dwelling
: on that boring mainstream non-alternate reality.

: --
: Stan Bischof
: Hewlett Packard Sonoma County

Stan, its obvious that you're just trying to confuse the issue with 
facts.  You won't get very far on Alt.reality^h^h^h^h^h^h^h 
energy.renewable with that type of thinking.
-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From dbrewste@netcom.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1214 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!dbrewste
From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster)
Subject: Re: Flywheel Ev Prototyp
Message-ID: <dbrewsteCuyuE7.H6L@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References: <47e_9408221119@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 02:18:07 GMT
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

Randy Tolleson (Randy.Tolleson@f801.n130.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: TC>  RR> I would be interested in hearing more about the AFS (what
: The catch is in the precesion of the flywheel.  If a force is applied
:  at 90 degrees to the axis of spin the flywheel will precess at 90
:  degree angle to the applied force.  This means that a flywheel
:  fastened to our planet must deal with the frictions associated with
:  180 degrees of rotation while ressistive forces are applied at 90
:  degrees to the spin axis.  
: On a car the spin axis can only be designed to be perpendicular to
:  one plane.  This means you can have a gyro flipping your car as you
:  round a corner or climb a hill....take your pick.


Randy, whilst there is a considerable amount of used male bovine food 
spread around this news group, and there are people in this group that 
take pride in their ignorance of and inability to use correct units...

This is probably one of the more solveable gyro problems.  You can use 
counter rotating gyros or matched pairs of small gyros rotating in 
oposite directions. 

-- 
Dick Brewster                                             dbrewste@netcom.com



From A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk Tue Aug 23 23:43:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1215 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re:Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Date: 23 Aug 1994 11:21:07 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 19
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2E59E695.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Unparseable-Date: +100 (GMT0) 994 12:04:00
Status: O
X-Status: 

Being fairly new to this list, and communicating from the UK, I am not sure
what the situation is in the US, but I get the feeling that there are a lot of
selfish (and childish) people out there.  The AE list is far more 'civilised' in
the opinions expressed, than this RE list.  Come on you lot, this is not the
playground (or maybe it is), lets have meaningful discussion and exchange
of useful information about renewable energy and the ways that it can be
used to improve the lot of (all) humanity and the planet generally.  Naive I
know, but one can but dream.
Another thought, I believe that all personal transport use should be taxed. 
No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
road.  Here in the UK we are going full speed ahead towards covering the
country with concrete and tarmac, and reducing our cities to polluted car
parks/ race tracks, while removing the few remaining bits of (semi) wild
flora and fauna.  Where will it end ?  Personal freedom yes, but at what
cost to the freedom of others to breathe, to walk, to cycle, etc.  You have
the advantage in the US of having a lot more space to play with (to pollute
?), but don't follow our bad example, please.
Anton.


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Tue Aug 23 23:43:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1216 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Date: 23 Aug 1994 12:06:38 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33cooe$ifb@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <9408221906.AA00618@junkyard2.east.sun.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I don't think it is realistic to use a woodstove to generate heat for 
electricity. You will need higher temperatures to create the steam efficiently 
to drive a turbine, which also is expensive. Try looking into a small solar 
panel, Real Goods sell several solar chargers - I have their 1.5 watt module 
which works very well for D cell batteries.

Steen


From rwizard@america.net Tue Aug 23 23:43:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1217 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re:Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Date: 23 Aug 1994 14:46:17 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 8
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408231040.A17122-0100000@atl1>
References: <2E59E695.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Now that oppressive taxation has run your country into the ground you
want to come over here and advocate for it being imposed on us ?
YIKES !  Don't get me wrong, I love the UK, I worked over there for
a while - but please - keep your taxes to yourself !  Not intended
as a flame - just my point of view :).

rwizard



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1218 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CuzvLH.3q8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 15:41:40 GMT
References: <2E59E695.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 45
Status: O
X-Status: 

Anton Simmons (A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk) wrote:
: Another thought, I believe that all personal transport use should be taxed. 

  Well let's see. Toll roads, bridge tools, gas taxes, registration
'fees', license 'fees', etc. Over here in the states this one is 
covered pretty well.

 Brings to mind a little anecdote of local significance- there's a 
fair transit system here that reduces some of the commute traffic and
of course is supported largely by the above sort of taxes.  A few years
ago the directors decided to try and increase ridership so they lowered
fares. Worked great. Ridership soared, traffic was measurably down.
Ooops- too many people using mass transit so tax revenues down. Can't
have that! Raise fares back up to higher than original. Problem solved.

: No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
: people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
                      ^^^^^^^^^^

Wow. You must have some REALLY hot cars over there! 

  Here in the UK we are going full speed ahead towards covering the
: country with concrete and tarmac, and reducing our cities to polluted car
: parks/ race tracks, while removing the few remaining bits of (semi) wild
: flora and fauna.  Where will it end ?  Personal freedom yes, but at what
: cost to the freedom of others to breathe, to walk, to cycle, etc.  You have
: the advantage in the US of having a lot more space to play with (to pollute
: ?), but don't follow our bad example, please.
: Anton.

Quess we can assume that you don't own/use a car ??

Seriously though, I agree- urban sprawl is something to be carefully
watched, as anyone who has been near any large city can attest.

Has England implemented any sort of smog controls yet? I was over there
some years ago and the autos were horrible- clouds of smoke- like a 
bunch of 50's relics not terribly tuned up. London was a beautiful city
but I cam home covered in soot/smoke/?? every evening.

How are transit fares there determined? How are the transit systems
supported?
--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1219 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE: SNATCHING INDUCTION FROM POWER LI
Message-ID: <18d_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 02:29:29 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Proud
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >TM>    I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
 >TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
 > 
 > Yep, that and also to keep my kids from sticking just about 
 > everything they can think of in them.

Hehehehe
 
I think getting jolted at age 5 by sticking a bobby pin into an outlet is what
"sparked" my interest in electricity and motivated me to get a degree in
electronics later in life.
 
You're depriving your kids, Brian. <<snicker>>


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Tue Aug 23 23:43:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1220 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <195_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 15:25:58 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Eric Gray
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, Eric. No, i don't have such figures... I get my gennies from Wally's
Westside Repair, 923-3384, out of Redway, CA. I am sure he has the numbers.


From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1221 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n343!f70!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: milk jug salvage
Message-ID: <19f_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 18 Aug 94 22:36:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 2
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

Home Shop Machinist magazine had a series of articles a year or two
ago on making your own plastic injection machine.


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1222 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <1b6_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 01:38:03 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -- The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Datnoid@aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Datnoid@aol.com, on 13 Aug 94, wrote (in part):
 
  Dm> Several weeks ago I posted a note of my recent successfull
  Dm> transformation of a "junked" Hotpoint refrigerator/freezer into a
  Dm> highly efficient solar powered refrigerator.  What follows is a brief
  Dm> summary:
<snip>
  Dm> I've kept a track of the energy use for the last two weeks and have
  Dm> found it to consistently use less that .55kwh per day in energy
  Dm> consumption.  Or, an average of 44Ah @12vdc in a 24 hour period.

I did not see the post and was wondering if you'd be willing to discuss some
particulars?  I'm just getting started in PV/solar (bought a set of Quadlams
last week!  Can't hardly wait!!!) and refrigeration is a concern.


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1223 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <1b7_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 01:44:08 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -- The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

DaveHatunen and MShadowfax were chatting...
  Mx> 
  Mx> "I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
  Mx> through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread.
  Mx> At first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is
  Mx> the only group this seems to happen in. Has anyone else had this
  Mx> problem?"
  Mx> 
  Mx> Just today I received some posts almost a month old . . . this isn't
  Mx> the first time either. Must be bouncing off Pluto.

It's probably coming from the FidoNet-side of the gate; lately (as in the last
week or so) I've been seeing a lot of re-posts in all kinds of echos.  Today I
saw one of my own from mid-July!  As to why, I haven't a clue.


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1224 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <1b8_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 01:50:23 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -- The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

My dad has been howling all week that we need a "jack pump" for our well.  He's
convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to draw up 10+ gallons/min
from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure.  Does anyone have any experience
with these things?  I'm not even sure I know what one is.  A 12/24 volt pump
would be great (I've just about had it with carting the generator to the
pumphouse every morning!).  :^)

DH


From rwizard@america.net Tue Aug 23 23:43:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1225 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fridge Gadget
Date: 23 Aug 1994 18:13:38 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 6
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

rwizard


From PHYJAMIE@UKCC.UKY.EDU Tue Aug 23 23:43:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1226 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: PHYJAMIE@UKCC.UKY.EDU (Jamie Day)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Data Logger
Date: 23 Aug 1994 18:31:09 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 7
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408231811.OAA02162@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


I am interested in finding a cheap data logger to record temperature
measurements over a period of several days.  Does anyone know of a source
or have circuit plans so I can build one.  I am a grad student, so it's
really gotta be cheap.

Thanks


From jocoats@amoco.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1227 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!swiss.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!news
From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Subject: Re: milk jug salvage
Message-ID: <1994Aug23.124444.1891@amoco.com>
Sender: news@amoco.com
Reply-To: jocoats@amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Corportation
References: <19f_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 12:44:44 CDT
Lines: 13
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <19f_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>, Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney) writes:
>>Home Shop Machinist magazine had a series of articles a year or two
>>ago on making your own plastic injection machine.

does anyone know the address of Home Shop Machinist magazine?


---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org




From rwizard@america.net Tue Aug 23 23:43:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1228 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Real Goods ?
Date: 23 Aug 1994 21:58:24 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 12
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Alright gang -
You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?
I have made a page by page search of my ONLY copy of Home Power
and while I did see it mentioned, as far as how to get it I found
NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.  Since I don't want to wait for my subscription
to Home Power to start or my CD-ROM to get here, I'm hoping 
somebody can give me a phone number, name, address, whatever I
need to acquire this holy grail!  Thanks :) .

rwizard



From xzz0529@rs48069.rchland.ibm.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1229 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!locutus.rchland.ibm.com!rs48069.rchland.ibm.com!xzz0529
From: xzz0529@rs48069.rchland.ibm.com (Jonathan Allan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fridge Gadget
Date: 23 Aug 1994 23:28:20 GMT
Organization: IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33e0mk$20ll@locutus.rchland.ibm.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rs48069.rchland.ibm.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>, rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson) writes:
|> I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
|> supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
|> sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
|> here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

Ask this one over on sci.energy.  One chap plugged in
his fridge and it eventually destroyed the fridge
motor, right before it self destructed.  The magic
word is "Green Plug".  Consumer Reports covered these
kinds of devices a while back.  If your fridge is newer
than about 7+/-3 years, forget it - it won't improve
the fridges efficiency any.

My next fridge is gonna be a Sunfrost.

-- 
*  Nobody except me has any stake in this opinion, and *
*  if I'm playing Devlis Advocate, even *I* don't.     *
*  Don't bother emailing, it'll bounce.                *


From johng@crl.com Tue Aug 23 23:43:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1230 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl3.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: johng@crl.com (John Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fridge Gadget
Date: 23 Aug 1994 16:55:32 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <33e29k$6uk@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl3.crl.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson) writes:

>I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
>supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
>sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
>here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

Yes ! I bought one for my 14 year old side by side GE. I also borrowed a meter
from the power company and left the thing running 1 week with 1 without. The
outcome was quite surprising. With the "green plug" connected one day the
consumption would be 1.8KWh the next 8.XKWh and so on, the average was
5.4KWh per day. Without the green plug the daily consumption had exactly the
same average, but the daily variation was minimal, I would have expected
the opposite result, but you live and learn. So since there was no net
savings I sent the thing back.

Consumer Reports did a mini review of these things a couple of months ago
and said that only on reaaly old fridges did they make a difference. Obviously
14 years is not really old. It's a real pest that the new efficient models
are so expensive, there is no way that I can justify the $1500 for a new
model when the old (touch wood) is still doing so well, even if it costs
an extra $75 per year to run.




From rwizard@america.net Tue Aug 23 23:43:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1231 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Thanks
Date: 24 Aug 1994 01:27:43 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 5
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408232148.A19366-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just a quick thanks for the great responses on my questions
about Real Goods and the Green Plug.
:)
rwizard



From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Tue Aug 23 23:43:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1232 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Date: 24 Aug 1994 02:09:36 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408240151.TAA16465@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
References: <CuzvLH.3q8@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

> 
> : No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
> : people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Wow. You must have some REALLY hot cars over there! 

I beg to differ...

	1 MW / 746 watts per horsepower = 1340 Horsepower.

...now figure 10% efficiency in conversion from thermal to mechanical
energy and you end up with 134 horsepower.  Not so wild, after all...
less Hp than my car puts out to the transmission.


	I'd never really thought this through myself until I read that
the GM Impact has a 100kW inverter (liquid cooled) for its motor. Yikes!!

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Can we all get along?"



From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1233 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n369!f3!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <560_9408231901@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 05:24:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ken Finney
Status: O
X-Status: 

KF>Only a small portion of the manure is turned into gas.  The output
KF>of the digester is still good fertilizer.  The digester will remove

EXCELENT fertilizer! It breaks down the supplied volume into more basic
easier <for the plant> to use material.

KF>a fair amount of some of the elements, but will in turn alter some
KF>of the other elements into forms more available to plants.  So it's
KF>a pretty good deal all around.

It also tends to "sterilize" the fertilizer. In cases where diseases are
spred by putting raw manure on the ground as fertilizer <this is most
eveident in pig farming> the output of properly digested effluent from a
digester is almost entirely free of these diseases. I still would not
recomend human "droppings" to be used on food crops though. The diseases
in human manure are very persistant.

Big Dave

Hey, just wondering is the file of the posts on the methane digester
still kicking arround? It's been  a couple of yeas now hasn't it?

 * SLMR 2.1a * You can check out but you can never leave!


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Tue Aug 23 23:43:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1234 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n369!f3!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cow slurry methane di
Message-ID: <561_9408231901@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 05:44:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 39
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Arthur Torrey
Status: O
X-Status: 

AT> AD>What can you do with the gas from such a digester ? Has anyone used it f
AT> AD>running a generator ? Water & space heating ?  How "clean" is the gas, i
AT> AD>terms of burner clogging ?

I personally have helped build digesters <and have experimented with
"batch" digesters on small scale> and set up systems that the entire
power consumption of the location <some farms, some survival shelters>
has been supplied from such digesters. Usually the gas is used to run a
small engine <water cooled> and the engine both runs a generator to
charge batteries <or some ac> and compress the rest of the gas for other
uses. The gas can be used to heat water in standard gas water heaters
<with very little, easily done modification>, space heat the building,
light <gas lights anyone?> cook, and even cool or refridgerate. I have
also seen tractors and trucks run on the surplus from a large digester.
I have seen one aplication that I would love to experiment with but
because of recent loss of income have not had a chance. I saw a small
deisle that had a standard carb bolted where the butterfly was and fed
with gas. The injectors had been removed and a magneto supplied spark to
spak plugs in the place of the injectors. Ran pretty good. Wish I had
the time and money to persue it.

AT>  While I sympathize with your feelings, there is atleast a quasi legit reas
AT>to justify the rule in this particular case....  While the risks are greatly
AT>exaggerated in this country, there are many disease risks associated with
AT>improper disposal of human waste...  Among these is a whole family of differ
AT>worms, typhoid, dysentary, cholera, etc...  Much of the reason these disease
AT>are so rare in this country is because we DO dump our sewage into municipal
AT>systems...  Spreading it on the surface of the land, ESPECIALLY if that land

I would not consider the effluent from a digester of human waste to be
good fertilizer for food crops. I think that use on shubbery or grass
might work out ok though. Consider the possibility of running the output
of the digester into a long narrow,<and shallow> pond with water
hyasants <SP?> eating the stuff up. The water at the end of this pond
should be pretty clean

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Decibel: A southern girl one better than a nine


From A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 17:46:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1235 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: AE and RE lists -Reply
Date: 24 Aug 1994 08:56:33 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 44
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2E5B1653.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Unparseable-Date: +100 (GMT0) 994 09:39:00
Status: O
X-Status: 

Esther,
The AE list is available by subscribing to : ae@sjsuvm.sjsu.edu, which is
Internet as I'm not sure how I can access Fidonet either : I'm a bit of a
novice at this 'surfing the net' business, all I know is that here in the UK by
virtue of the fact that I'm employed by a University I have access via JANet
(Joint Academic Network) to the rest of the World, havn't really sussed
World Wide Web yet.  AE list is actually operated by CREST in
Washington, not to be confused with CREST in the UK (my Centre for
Renewable Energy Systems Technology).  

I take the point made by several people that the US is very big and has
poor public transport, Europe is small and has good (in the main) public
transport.  My opinions are obviously affected by living on an overcrowded
island.  My argument about taxation re: transportation is that very few
people in the World can in fact afford to have access to personal transport.
 Are we few wealthy people to drive around polluting the planet generally
(and congesting it specifically in the UK), while most people struggle with
poorly organised public transport (or should that be poor transport) ?  Since
public transport can only be funded centrally, central taxation it has to be. 
We just have to maintain control over the organisation of that taxation and
the provision of services from that taxation.  In this country we had an
excellent, centrally funded health service.  This is being run down and
rapidly approaching the US, free market, system.  Similarly we are in the
process of decentralising or 'privatising' public transport.  This means less
transport provision which is more expensive at the point of use,
encouraging people to use cars.  Public transport should be free at the
point of use to compete with cars which are highly subsidised through
absurdly low fuel prices, the US in particular has criminally cheap gasoline. 

Yes, I have a car (a diesel station wagon) which I've decided to get rid of,
and I cycle more these days, its just those long journeys will be difficult,
guess I shouldn't make long journeys.  Personal responsibility.

We do have what you might call indirect smog controls : All cars have to
pass an annual road worthiness test which now includes emission testing;
and smog warnings are given on certain days to advise people not to use
their cars, and the elderly, infirm and small children not to go outside ! The
thing is not many places here have air conditioning.   Asthma cases are
rising rapidly, particularly amongst the young.  I cycle to work and I get a
runny nose and sneeze a lot when I arrive, and I live in a small town (which
is 1 mile from the M1 motorway).  

Anton Simmons, Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology,
Loughborough University, Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK.


From rwizard@america.net Thu Aug 25 17:46:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1236 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply
Date: 24 Aug 1994 16:07:56 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 111
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408241041.A11655-0100000@atl1>
References: <2E5B1653.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I really can't let
such silliness go unchallenged:  

On -1 xxx -1, Anton Simmons wrote:

> Esther,
<Interesting Stuff Deleted>
> 
> I take the point made by several people that the US is very big and has
> poor public transport, Europe is small and has good (in the main) public
> transport.  My opinions are obviously affected by living on an overcrowded

Urban Mass Transit is spotty.  Public highways are excellent.  Airlines
do a pretty reasonable job on long hauls.  What we really lack is a good
inter-city rail system.

> island.  My argument about taxation re: transportation is that very few
> people in the World can in fact afford to have access to personal transport.

If you are a third world subsitience farmer what are you gonna use mass
transit for ?  I'm sorry, but the solution for this is to teach these
folks to be more productive, i.e. affluent.  Life is not a 0 sum game !

>  Are we few wealthy people to drive around polluting the planet generally
> (and congesting it specifically in the UK), while most people struggle with
> poorly organised public transport (or should that be poor transport) ?  Since
> public transport can only be funded centrally, central taxation it has to be. 

Excuse me, but why should I allow the Government to put a gun at my head
and take my hard earned money so that somebody can take a free ride on
some expensive overbloated Gov't run transit system ?

> We just have to maintain control over the organisation of that taxation and
> the provision of services from that taxation.  In this country we had an

Well, now I know you are lost.  MAINTAIN CONTROL ?  Over a CENTRAL TAXATION
AUTHORITY ?  Excuse me while I flap my arms and fly around the room !

> excellent, centrally funded health service.  This is being run down and
> rapidly approaching the US, free market, system.  Similarly we are in the

Excellent ! While the transition may be a problem, if they do it right
you will be well pleased with the results.  As for all that crap Bill
Clinton spews about our system - don't believe it.  I am disabled, no longer
able to work,  in need of ongoing medical care.  My wife went through a
serious bought with cancer and had to have major surgery which was soon
followed by another life threatening illness.  Guess what, while we
should be "Clinton Poster Children" we aren't.  Our care was superb!

> process of decentralising or 'privatising' public transport.  This means less
> transport provision which is more expensive at the point of use,

Hopefully it will also result in less taxation, leading in time to a more
robust economy and greater economic freedom for workers.  When I worked
in England my compensation was paid by my US employer.  I was horrified
by the poor local wages and the local cost of living.

> encouraging people to use cars.  Public transport should be free at the

Nothing should ever be "free" - people have no respect for things they don't
at least pay something for.  If you want to wreck your transit system, that
would be a good way to do it.

And, Free to whom ?  Somebody is paying for this.

> point of use to compete with cars which are highly subsidised through
> absurdly low fuel prices, the US in particular has criminally cheap gasoline. 

SUBSIDIZED ? BY WHO ? THE GENEROSITY OF THE OIL COMPANIES ?  CRIMINALLY
CHEAP ?  Funny, I thought your fuel was criminally taxed !  Just because
you are stupid enough to give the politicians that much of YOUR money to play
with, don't call me a criminal for having the wisdom to say no.

> 
> Yes, I have a car (a diesel station wagon) which I've decided to get rid of,
> and I cycle more these days, its just those long journeys will be difficult,
> guess I shouldn't make long journeys.  Personal responsibility.

Excuse me, but not everyone is phyically able to bike or jog to the market.
Personal Responsibility ?  Or Self-Serving Personal Smugness ?

> 
> We do have what you might call indirect smog controls : All cars have to
> pass an annual road worthiness test which now includes emission testing;
> and smog warnings are given on certain days to advise people not to use
> their cars, and the elderly, infirm and small children not to go outside ! The
> thing is not many places here have air conditioning.   Asthma cases are

If you were not suffering from overburdening taxation you could probably
afford the technology to deal with some of these problems.

> rising rapidly, particularly amongst the young.  I cycle to work and I get a
> runny nose and sneeze a lot when I arrive, and I live in a small town (which
> is 1 mile from the M1 motorway).  

I experience the same thing - everytime the pine trees on my place are
in bloom.

> 
> Anton Simmons, Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology,
> Loughborough University, Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK.
> 

Sorry gang - I make it a rule never to bring up socio-political stuff,
but when somebody else brings it up, I respond.  Again, my apologies.
BTW - So nobody misunderstands, I'm all for mass transit, just opposed
to socialism and weak minds.

rwizard



From A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 17:46:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1237 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply -Reply
Date: 24 Aug 1994 16:41:21 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2E5B7FC2.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Unparseable-Date: +100 (GMT0) 994 17:12:00
Status: O
X-Status: 

Randy K. Wilson wrote a lot of stuff.  As I said earlier there are a lot of
selfish and childish people out there.  I will not respond further.  

This is a Renewable Energy list after all. 

Has anyone any direct experience of connecting small scale, i.e. domestic
of a few kW, wind and solar generation to the utility grid ?  Any experience
of technical and utility difficulties ?

Anton.


From CYBURG@aol.com Thu Aug 25 17:46:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1238 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: CYBURG@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubsribe
Date: 24 Aug 1994 17:19:39 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408241237.tn195026@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubsribe



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Thu Aug 25 17:46:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1239 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cv1sDx.18s@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 16:27:32 GMT
References: <Pine.3.89.9408241041.A11655-0100000@atl1>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 15
Status: O
X-Status: 

Randy K. Wilson (rwizard@america.net) wrote:

: I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I really can't let
: such silliness go unchallenged:  

.. [ lots of good points deleted ]

WELL SAID!

Incredible how many folks still believe that having the government 
confiscate and control everything will solve the worlds ills.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From cgood@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Aug 25 17:47:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1240 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cgood
From: cgood@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles W Good)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Date: 24 Aug 1994 16:44:29 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 1
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33ftdd$onl@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: beauty.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Charles W. Good


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 17:47:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1241 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Windpower And Disarmamen
Message-ID: <2a5_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 23:35:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

TW>On (28 Jul 94) Gale Barrows wrote to Doug Bashford...

TW>GB> DB> RG> North Dakota has some of the most constant and high prevailing
TW>GB> DB> RG> winds in the nation, his idea is makes great sense, even to a
TW>GB> DB> RG> sceptic like me.
TW>GB>
TW>GB> Kind of a moot question as the terms of the treaties under which the
TW>GB> missle sites are being asbandoned are that the silos and control centers
TW>GB> be destroyeed by explosives or by filling them with concrete. One silo

TW>        It's a shame all of those sights have to go to wast.  BTW, did
TW>        you get the info on fixing the carb on your old piece of
TW>        equipment?  If not, I can netmail it to you.

Got it. Thanks.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 17:47:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1242 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Electric Bicycle
Message-ID: <2a6_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 23:37:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Paxton
Status: O
X-Status: 

DP>GB>I have a 13" B&W TV and a 13" color TV that are both 110 AC/ 12 DC
DP>GB>units. There is also a VCR that works on 12 volt DC. My refriderator in
DP>GB>the camper is 12 volt and uses a compressor like a 110 household fridge.
DP>GB>Amperage draw of the small camper fridge is 3.7 amps as shown on the
DP>GB>label. Household size ones I have seen advertised use about 10 amps if I
DP>GB>remember right.

DP>I was unaware of the new larger screen tv's for 12 volt. I imagine they
DP>draw a decent current. As I suggested though these are all designed for
DP>the RV market and are available through those dealers. Other companies
DP>are carrying more of these items now because it is an expanding market.
DP>Even Radio Shack is comeing out with 12 volt lines these days.

Got my units from K-Mart. Current draw is about the same as for the 5"
screens, at least close enough that the difference is of little
importance in actual use.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 17:47:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1243 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Quiet
Message-ID: <2a7_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 23:40:04 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

IW>On (04 Aug 94) Gale Barrows wrote to Don Kulha...

IW> GB> I too would be interested in propane conversion kits for
IW> GB> small engines (larger ones also) but do not know sources.

IW>I don't either, but I don't think it would be too hard to find out.
IW>Mine came through the local Honda dealer who installed it. If I
IW>were looking, I'd try calling my local propane distributor (Amerigas
IW>or otherwise) and asking for sources.

IW>Impco is a very common brand of converter, in case that helps.

I have used their stuff on a drill rig.


IW>... Why doesn't the fattest man in the world become a hockey goalie?


Because I can't skate !!!!!!

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 17:47:04 EDT 1994
Article: 1244 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Gas Saving Technologies
Message-ID: <2a8_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 13 Aug 94 23:43:06 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Terry Buyers
Status: O
X-Status: 

TB>In a msg on <Aug 04 14:01>, Jens Hoffman of 1:343/186 writes:

TB> JH>         If you are not afraid to work on a commission &
TB> JH> performance basis and are interested in this opportunity,
TB> JH> please >FAX OR MAIL< your resume to Mr. Jens Hoffmann at GAS
TB> JH> SAVER TECHNOLOGIES, 401 NE 40th St., Suite 304, Seattle, WA
TB> JH> 98105, fax: 206-547-8675 (* 51)

TB>Email to this system or to terry.buyers@catbox.lakes.trenton.sc.us - I'll tr
TB>your product/methods on our company vehicles, and if it
TB>works, sell it out of our store or via our field sales
TB>people - and we do advertise nationally/internationally on
TB>one of the shortwave stations.

If you have a catalog/list of your offerings, please send it to me c/o
Black Hills Ordnace Depot, RR1, Box 107, Custer, SD, 57730.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 25 17:47:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1245 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n351!f299!p2!Brian.Proud
From: Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Proud)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Methane digester/ Electric outlets
Message-ID: <2c7_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 01:35:27 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Here There Be Dragons... (OS/2 2.11)
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jim,

JD> I think getting jolted at age 5 by sticking a bobby pin into an outlet
 JD> is what "sparked" my interest in electricity and motivated me to get
 JD> a degree in electronics later in life.   You're depriving your kids,
 JD> Brian. <<snicker>>

Nah, I remember wondering what would happen when you stuck something(metal of
course) into an outlet.  Found out too.  Now I'm an electronics tech working on
getting technologist certification.

My kids know all about what would happen if they put anything into an outlet. 
They've watched daddy playing with (charged) capacitors and have actually
touched one.  They really don't have any desire to touch 120.

Question for all you guys knowledgable about digesters.  I'm looking to
investigate building one to start digesting the output of ~100 cows, 10 horses,
100pigs, + numerous chickens(for the fertilizer).  Any ideas on where to look
for info on building the digester???  Any ideas on how much output I'd get from
it(fertilizer, gas, etc)???  Should I mix all these types of excreta
together???

 Brian


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 25 17:47:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1246 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n300!f507!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Propane generators
Message-ID: <2e9_9408241052@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: ARLO HAGLER
Status: O
X-Status: 

AH> Hi, Eric. No, i don't have such figures... I get my gennies from Wally's
  > Westside Repair, 923-3384, out of Redway, CA. I am sure he has the numbers.

Thx. I'll just call around and see what I can find.

eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Thesaurus: ancient reptile with an excellent vocabulary


From rwizard@america.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1247 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply -Reply
Date: 24 Aug 1994 18:40:17 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 27
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408241341.A17720-0100000@atl1>
References: <2E5B7FC2.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On -1 xxx -1, Anton Simmons wrote:

> Randy K. Wilson wrote a lot of stuff.  As I said earlier there are a lot of
> selfish and childish people out there.  I will not respond further.  
> 
How SUPERIOR of you Anton,  I stand in awe of your ENLIGHTENED state.
It is best to cut your losses, I wouldn't respond further either.

> This is a Renewable Energy list after all. 
> 
So why not stick to the very interesting problems which this presents.
If we make it economically viable people will use it without a lot of
socio-political meddling.  I suggest you send your taxation ideas to
alt.support.marxist .

> Has anyone any direct experience of connecting small scale, i.e. domestic
> of a few kW, wind and solar generation to the utility grid ?  Any experience
> of technical and utility difficulties ?
> 
> Anton.
> 
Thank you for changing to a more appropriate topic.  I look forward to
the answers you receive as this is an area of interest to me as well.

Randy


From cnt@MCS.COM Thu Aug 25 17:47:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1248 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!panix!ddsw1!not-for-mail
From: cnt@MCS.COM (Center / NT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Date: 24 Aug 1994 12:49:30 -0500
Organization: MCSNet Subscriber Account, Chicago's First Public-Access Internet!
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33g17a$q7v@Venus.mcs.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.mcs.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2 (KSD)]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Randy K. Wilson (rwizard@america.net) wrote:
: Alright gang -
: You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
: see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?

You can reach them at 1-800-762-7325.

Also their mailing address is:

Real Goods
966 Mazzoni Street
Ukiah, CA 95482-3471


Jonathan Goldman
------------------------
jonathan@cnt.org



From wlord@bu.edu Thu Aug 25 17:47:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1249 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 24 Aug 1994 19:26:23 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 8
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408241840.NAA13387@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe
Professor William Lord
Boston University
College of Communication
640 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617 353-5974



From jbvb@elf.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1250 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Date: 23 Aug 1994 12:49:27 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <33cr8n$nl2@usenet.elf.com>
References: <9408221906.AA00618@junkyard2.East.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM (Bruce Carroll - Sun BOS Systems Product Assurance CONTRACTOR) writes:

>Is there anything available to capture electricty from a woodstove, 
>(steam engine, etc). I am looking to generate a small amount to help 
>keep my batteries charged during the winter. 

In a relatively recent issue of Home Power there was a write-up of
using a commercial LP-gas thermoelectric generator, but I can't find
it in the index published in #42 (at least not under Thermo...).
There was a more general article on thermo-electricity in #36.  I
suppose if you could lay hands on the right kind of junction, you
could attach them to the stove, but be careful of over-temperature.

Any steam engine of useful horsepower (1/4HP+, maybe?) is going to
need a good deal of steam.  Available water heating coils are probably
designed to run at below boiling, and they won't have features like
steam domes (where the steam gets separated from the water).  You
could probably make it work (with considerable effort), but you'd have
to put together an absolutely reliable system to maintain the water
level, because a boiler explosion in your living space would put the
occupants at severe risk.  Nobody would insure you.


--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1251 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!news
From: arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
Subject: Magnets for HardWater?
Sender: news@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <Cv1rFM.4oHI@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 16:06:57 GMT
Reply-To: arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Austin
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.00
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves
calc buildup all over the water system; nothing new living
in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well
instead of municipal system, so I have to treat the water.

2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about
really strong magnet system to put around cold water intake to
re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't
want to deposit on my system. (Nice..)

3) He also says if I use the magnets, an RO system will work
effectively, and without it will not, that my water will harm the RO
unit.

4) Some talk that these magnets are a miracle and some talk that,
well, you need more of them than they tell you and they're perhaps
not as effective as previously touted.

What I would appreciate is some opinions from experience and/or
the scientific community about the idea in general and the 
magnets already in use.

Thanks, and I'll hangup and listen ?!  Ted Arbogast, Terlingua Texas



From jbvb@elf.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1252 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Date: 24 Aug 1994 12:32:08 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <33fek8$6mf@usenet.elf.com>
References: <1b8_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler) writes:

>...  He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to draw
>up 10+ gallons/min from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure.  Does anyone
>have any experience with these things?...

The one I bought (and wrote about in HP #40) was a ShurFlow
submersible, which draws about 2A @24VDC while lifting maybe 1.7 GPM
from 60' down in my 340' well (static water level is about 26' down).
This is fine for my barn & tree/garden watering application, and would
do for a house if you had a large storage tank.

There are other DC submersibles, but I don't know if they deliver more
GPM.  Windy Dankoff's SlowPump will deliver at least 4GPM, but it
isn't submersible, so you need a very stable water level in the well
(no more than 10' variation ever, regardless of use).

I've been told the following, which is probably relevant to your 525'
well (note that I am not completely confident in the physics):

 One issue with all positive displacement pumps is that they shouldn't
 be submerged any more than is necessary.  Where a centrifugal pump is
 helped by the pressure of the standing column above it, positive
 displacement pumps aren't.  Typically you can draw more GPM from a well
 if you pump from further down, so centrifugal submersibles get hung
 deep, but putting a diaphragm or vane pump deep makes it work harder,
 so it delivers fewer GPM.

Check out the pump stories in the last 4-5 issues of HP, and call a
few of the advertisers/dealers.  If you can meet your needs by
dragging a genny out there once a day, you could probably do so with a
slower-pumping PV-direct DC application (pumps when the sun is out)
that ran most of the day.  New prices would be in the $1000+ range for
one or two panels, a pump and maybe a controller.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From jbvb@elf.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1253 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Date: 24 Aug 1994 12:37:09 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <33fetl$6s2@usenet.elf.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson) writes:

>You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
>see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?
>I have made a page by page search of my ONLY copy of Home Power
>and while I did see it mentioned, as far as how to get it I found
>NOTHING, NADA, ZIP....

I've seen their ads, but I guess they don't always run one...

Real Goods
966 Mazzoni St.
Ukiah, CA  95428-3471
800-762-7325

A recent mailing said they'd moved to a new site nearby, but the old
address will probably work for a while at least.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From doe-egg@access.digex.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1254 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news1.digex.net!access.digex.net!doe-egg
From: doe-egg@access.digex.net ()
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Date: 24 Aug 1994 21:21:32 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
Lines: 74
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33gdks$mt2@news1.digex.net>
Reply-To: doe-egg@access.digex.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: doe-egg.digex.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In message <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) 
writes:

>I haven't ever seen or heard discussion of the following as a power
>source, although it is free, legal, and universally available.
>If it was been discussed before, I appologize for the repetition.
>
>It's something called the Atmospheric Potential Gradient.  In essence,
>its is the voltage or potential difference that exists between the
>Earth's surface and its Ionosphere.  While I'm not sure that a useful
>level of power can be extracted, some of you may find interesting 
>applications for this, and, if nothing else, have fun playing with
>it.
>
>Way back in ancient times, when I was 12, I managed to install a 
>televison antenna on the roof of our home in New Jersey.  When
>I had connected a typical piece of twin-lead to it, and ran it 
>down the side of the house, I noticed that I could repeatedly get
>a spark from the wire when I connected it to a grounded lightning
>arrester.  I also received several shocks in the process. At first,
>I assumed that it was from some sort of power line leakage, but
>it turned out to be a somewhat more fundamental source of energy.
>
>For some reason, I don't remember why, I decided to check it out 
>with one of those little neon-bulb type circuit testers, and,
>surprise, there was enough voltage to light the neon bulb.  An
>even bigger surprise was that only one electrode of the bulb
>was lit, indicating that the power source was direct current,
>and therefore could not possibly be originating from the power
>lines. This mystified me.
>
>It was some years later that I found the actual source.
>
>During a college project, I was researching atmospheric electrical
>phenomena. While reading a monograph entitled "Thunderstorm
>Electricity" I learned that a potential gradient exists in Earth's
>atmosphere, between the Ionosphere and the Earth surface; and that
>this could be viewed as a large resistor with hundreds of
>thousands of Amps flowing through it at all times.  
>
>In simpler terms, if you put a conductive collector up in the
>air, and run an insulated conductor down to the ground, a DC
>current flow will exist in the wire.  You are effectively tapping 
>into free, atmospheric electricity.  Height determines voltage, 
>while the size of the collector determines practical current 
>limitations. The energy flow is constant (or very nearly so) and 
>while small, free.
>
>With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
>70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
>but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
>suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
>collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!
>
>It you can dream up a use for this curious effect, go to it. 
>Even if you can't, it might be a fun thing for some of you to
>experiment with.
>
>Have fun.
>
>                                      Harry C.
>
>
>ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
>    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
>    through use of a collector on top the mast.
>

I don't think you were tapping power from the ionosphere, unless your antenna 
was tens of miles long.  You were more likely observing a charge built up by 
placing a conductor in a moist environment containing ions (the ground).  By 
the way, there is no free power.



From bobj@boi.hp.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:14 EDT 1994
Article: 1255 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!news1.boi.hp.com!bobj
From: bobj@boi.hp.com (Bob Jackson)
Subject: Re: Magnets for HardWater?
Sender: news@boi.hp.com (Boise Site News Server)
Message-ID: <Cv22Ms.Ixw@boi.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 20:08:51 GMT
References: <Cv1rFM.4oHI@austin.ibm.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: hpbs4184.boi.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.11]
Lines: 36
Status: O
X-Status: 

arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com wrote:
: What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves
: calc buildup all over the water system; nothing new living
: in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well
: instead of municipal system, so I have to treat the water.

: 2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about
: really strong magnet system to put around cold water intake to
: re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't
: want to deposit on my system. (Nice..)

: 3) He also says if I use the magnets, an RO system will work
: effectively, and without it will not, that my water will harm the RO
: unit.

: 4) Some talk that these magnets are a miracle and some talk that,
: well, you need more of them than they tell you and they're perhaps
: not as effective as previously touted.

: What I would appreciate is some opinions from experience and/or
: the scientific community about the idea in general and the 
: magnets already in use.

: Thanks, and I'll hangup and listen ?!  Ted Arbogast, Terlingua Texas

We have a set of magnets around our pool outlet pipe....I've never taken them
off to see what a difference it would make.  The pool installer put them on
to try and solve our mineral staining problem; he seemed to think it helped.
They didn't cost me anything and if I dump in a bottle of scale/stain 
inhibitor every time I add water to the pool, it stays white.  So I'm 
happy.....

Have a good one...

Bob....



From DBHolmes@aol.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1256 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Date: 24 Aug 1994 23:14:18 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 19
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408241855.tn213497@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

To get the Real Goods catalog, call 800-762-7325, 24 hrs/day, 7 days/week.

Mail address:
966 Mazzoni St
Ukiah, CA 95482-3471

fax: 707/ 468-9468
foreign orders: 707/ 468-9214

Their product specialists, for info on their products, can be reached at:
800-762-7325.

They have stores in: 
Hopland, CA (707/ 744-2100), 
Amherst, WI (715/ 824-3982), and 
Eugene, OR (503/ 334-6960)

DBHolmes



From wbw@shore.shore.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1257 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!shore.shore.net!shore.shore.net!not-for-mail
From: wbw@shore.shore.net (William B. Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Date: 24 Aug 1994 20:45:20 -0400
Organization: North Shore Access; a service of Eco Software, Inc.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <33gpj0$6ej@shore.shore.net>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shore.shore.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.89.9408231734.A5451-0100000@atl1>,
Randy K. Wilson <rwizard@america.net> wrote:
>Alright gang -
>You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
>see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?
 -snip-

Real Goods
966 Mazzoni St.
Ukiah, Ca. 95482
(800) 762-7325
Fax (707) 468-9486



From DBHolmes@aol.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:19 EDT 1994
Article: 1258 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Date: 25 Aug 1994 05:42:09 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 7
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408250118.tn238034@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In principle, you could use a photovoltaic module designed to capture the IR
given off by the hot stove walls.  (conventional PV cells are designed to
capture visible light, not IR) Various people have done R&D on this concept,
but I am not aware that anyone is making and selling them.

DBHolmes



From A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 17:47:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1259 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Utility Intertie
Date: 25 Aug 1994 08:44:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 22
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2E5C6419.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Unparseable-Date: +100 (GMT0) 994 09:26:00
Status: O
X-Status: 

Alan Muller wrote :

<There is lots of experience here with residential-scale utility intertie         >
<systems.  These seem to show to best advantage with wind rather than>
<pv based systems.  If you'd like some specific contacts/references let   >
<me know... >

Yes, Alan, I would appreciate some specific contacts/references on this
subject, although the system is different here in the UK it would be
interesting to get an idea of how its done in the US.  In the UK there is very
little experience of small scale generation into the utility grid, it is mainly
large scale fossil fuel or nuclear generation.  This is something which will
grow over the next few years.  

I will be installing a 1.8kW grid-linked inverter fed from 2.2kW of
amorphous pv on the roof of our new centre's research laboratory.  This will
be used to offset the University's base load (about 4MW !), hopefully
making the centre energy self-suffcient with the help of a 2.2kW wind
turbine.  These will be used for research and also for a new masters course
in RE which we are running for the first time from October.  

Anton.


From A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 17:47:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1260 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: High Efficiency Amorphous PV
Date: 25 Aug 1994 08:49:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 7
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2E5C653E.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Unparseable-Date: +100 (GMT0) 994 09:31:00
Status: O
X-Status: 

I've just received some information from Uni-Solar anouncing a
breakthrough in amorphous technology that enables a triple junction
amorphous cell to perform at 10%+ efficiency, backed up by NREL/DOE. 
This isn't commercial yet .....  Does anyone know anything about this,  or
the 'breakthrough' in pv efficiency that was anounced in New South Wales
earlier this year ?
Anton.


From dodrillm@connected.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1261 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!bethel.connected.com!gibeah.connected.com!not-for-mail
From: dodrillm@connected.com (Mark Dodrill)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Home Power info for Seattle wanted
Date: 24 Aug 1994 23:36:23 -0700
Organization: Connected INC - Full Service Internet Provider (tm)
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <33he57$5p2@gibeah.connected.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gibeah.connected.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking at building my own home in the Seattle, WA area, and am
wondering if anyone in this area has a home that effectively uses PV, solar
hot water, wind, and/or hydro.  Are any of these pratical for Seattle? 

I'd love to hear about any experiences you might have--I want to see if it
looks worth doing.

Feel free to reply via e-mail instead of this newsgroup, since this is
specific to Seattle.

Thanks,
Mark



From jocoats@amoco.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1262 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!hawkings!news
From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstov
Message-ID: <1994Aug25.075248.29331@amoco.com>
Sender: news@amoco.com
Reply-To: jocoats@amoco.com
Organization: Amoco Corportation
References: <9408250118.tn238034@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 07:52:48 CDT
Lines: 16
Status: O
X-Status: 

Try a whole bunch of thermocouples... This is basically what the
nuclear powered cells that they took to the moon used.  Just a 
warning you will need to make a BUNCH of thermocouples, both with
a hot and a cold end to get it to work!  This is basically the 
same technology that the `no moving parts` ice chests use that
can plug into the car.  The ice chests just crive the thermocouples
with power to make the hot side hot, and the cold side cold, where
you will be using the thermo-incline to generate power.  Not very
efficient, but it works.

---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org




From mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com Thu Aug 25 17:47:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1263 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com (Mike Fisher)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: UNSUBSRIBE
Date: 25 Aug 1994 14:38:31 -0000
Organization: Merlin's Realm BBS (719)-481-9881
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <940825080411467@merlins-realm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


 unsubscribe
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From wlord@bu.edu Thu Aug 25 17:47:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1264 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 25 Aug 1994 14:41:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408251411.JAA21227@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe



From rwizard@america.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1265 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstov
Date: 25 Aug 1994 15:53:18 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408251009.A11695-0100000@atl1>
References: <1994Aug25.075248.29331@amoco.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Jack Coats wrote:

> warning you will need to make a BUNCH of thermocouples, both with
> a hot and a cold end to get it to work!  This is basically the 
> same technology that the `no moving parts` ice chests use that

As I remember it, the ice chests you speak of use a Peltier Device.  Whereas 
thermocouples are a junction of dissimilar metals, a Peltier Device is a 
solid state (i.e semi-conductor) product. Obviously both involve junctions
of materials with differing properties.  Not so different after all.
As for the hot and cold side of thermocouples, my experience has been 
with using them for instrumentation.  While there was always some sort 
of temperature gradient present between the junction and the point of 
termination I was not aware that there was a requirement for such a 
differential in order to produce voltage.  In many installations I have 
worked with that gradient would have been small indeed but performance did 
not seem to be affected. Can you suggest a reference where I might learn 
more about this ?

Randy



From ctas!navier!doty@uunet.uu.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1266 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: ctas!navier!doty@uunet.uu.net (Dwight Doty)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 25 Aug 1994 18:16:39 -0000
Organization: Chrysler Technologies Airborne Systems
Lines: 8
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408251242.ZM7292@navier>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe

-- 
Dwight Doty                                      doty@ctas.com or
Flight Sciences                                  uunet!ctas!doty
Chrysler Technologies                            (817)867-4034
Airborne Systems                                 (817)867-4240 fax



From ctas!uunet!bu.edu!wlord@uunet.uu.net Thu Aug 25 17:47:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1267 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: ctas!uunet!bu.edu!wlord@uunet.uu.net (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 25 Aug 1994 20:17:55 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408251911.OAA23373@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe



From M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk Thu Aug 25 17:47:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1268 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!pipex!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bham!usenet
From: M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk (Mark E. Thornton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: unsubsribe
Date: 25 Aug 1994 15:13:19 GMT
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <33icef$6q2@sun4.bham.ac.uk>
References: <9408241237.tn195026@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mec79.bham.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: WinVN version 0.80
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9408241237.tn195026@aol.com>, CYBURG@aol.com says:
>
>unsubsribe
>

Nice one. One word and you spelt it wrong :-)

Mark


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Aug 25 22:41:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1269 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: High Efficiency Amorphous PV
Date: 25 Aug 1994 12:01:55 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33i17j$snc@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <2E5C653E.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think that is valid enough. I remember there was an article in Home Power
this spring where they mentioned it. I think the article was called "Ask NREL"
or something like that. They stated the same thing and that a new factory
in Virginia was being considered. The effect would be lower PV prices, maybe
as much as 50% I think they said.

Steen


From stuber@pilot.msu.edu Thu Aug 25 22:41:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1270 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: stuber@pilot.msu.edu (Karl Stuber)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 25 Aug 1994 22:44:14 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 17
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408252220.AA23429@pilot1.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Datnoid@aol.com, on 13 Aug 94, wrote (in part):
>
>
> I did not see the post and was wondering if you'd be willing to discuss some
> particulars?  I'm just getting started in PV/solar (bought a set of Quadlams
> last week!  Can't hardly wait!!!) and refrigeration is a concern.
>
   I saw the BHM article, where they set it up so when you run
your water up from the < 50degree cold well you just direct it
thru tubing that you have around the inside of a box(like a chest type
refrigerator).

It looked do-able to me.


karl



From Paul.Rider@f427.n163.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 25 22:41:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1271 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n163!f427!Paul.Rider
From: Paul.Rider@f427.n163.z1.fidonet.org (Paul Rider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Info on solar cells requested.
Message-ID: <1de_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 17:31:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Rodent!(Node 1)(613)247-1813 Ottawa/On/Canad
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Scott Currier
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello Scott!

19 Aug 94 18:15, Scott Currier wrote to All:

 SC> I'd like some information on solar cells. Essentially what I need to know
 SC> is how much power can be gotten from, and a ballpark price of a solar
 SC> panel that is about 1 or 2 sq feet.

Hello Scott, I too would be interested in this, if you get any decent replies
can you forward them to me.
                Tnks.

Rodent!


From Will.Firstbrook@f7070.n153.z1.fidonet.org Thu Aug 25 22:41:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1272 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n153!f7070!Will.Firstbrook
From: Will.Firstbrook@f7070.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Will Firstbrook)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 01:31:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sound Stage BBS - Live Via Satellite - (604)944-6476
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, 

I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
"grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
getting some solar panels. 

My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next
winter. Has anyone tried this?

Regards, Will

___
 X KWQ/2 1.2e NR X 


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 22:41:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1273 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Flywheel Ev Prototyp
Message-ID: <217_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 05:00:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Randy Tolleson
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Randy Tolleson to Tony Cygan <=-

 RT> The catch is in the precesion of the flywheel.  If a force 
 RT> is applied at 90 degrees to the axis of spin the flywheel 
 RT> will precess at 90 degree angle to the applied force.  
 RT> This means that a flywheel fastened to our planet must 
 RT> deal with the frictions associated with 180 degrees of 
 RT> rotation while ressistive forces are applied at 90 degrees 
 RT> to the spin axis.  
 RT> On a car the spin axis can only be designed to be 
 RT> perpendicular to one plane.  This means you can have a 
 RT> gyro flipping your car as you round a corner or climb a 
 RT> hill....take your pick.

Yea sounds right, but I would think they would take this
into consideration otherwise it would be a vertually 
useless idea, good only for stationary power sources like
quick charge stations.

I beleive that they are using counter rotating disks to
offset the gyro effect.


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !  
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Thu Aug 25 22:41:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1274 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emmisions Testing/EV's
Message-ID: <218_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 05:00:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 49
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Randy Tolleson
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Randy Tolleson to Tony Cygan <=-

 TC>  -=> Quoting Arthur Torrey to Tony Cygan <=-
 TC> 
 TC>  AT> I would point out that according to studies done in CA,
 TC> only about
 TC>  AT> 10% of the cars on the road account for about 90% of the
 TC> automotive
 RT> My vote is to get the government out of the monitoring you 
 RT> and me business.  Anyone that believes the few remaining 
 RT> cars with poor emmisions controls is damaging our quality 
 RT> of life enough to warrant the expense on this technology 
 RT> (paid or by me and you) needs to get off the dole.
 RT> `

Nope I disagree.  I'm tired of breathing dirty air and not
not being able to see the mountains from where I live.  
The health costs and cleanup costs associated with pollution 
are very high and yes the there is a reduced quality of life 
due to this.  And I do not beleive that it is only a few dirty 
cars causing this problem.  Newer cars have less pollution 
than older cars, but in a few years those "new" cars will 
start to need money put into them for maintenance and the
amount of pollution from them will go up as the owners don't
spend the money for the required repairs.

Auto exhaust is a major contributor to pollution, in fact 
here in Sacramento 70% of our smog comes from auto exhausts 
and is the driving force behind getting the Electric Vehicle 
on the road.  

It was (and is) CARB (California Air Resources Board) who
developed the ZEV (Zero Emmision Vehicle) mandate to put
Electric Vehicles on the road starting in 1998.  This will
require the major auto manufacturers to develope and produce
EV's for sale to the public.  I beleive that there are 
some places where government involvement is needed and this
is one of them.  

Tony

Ps.  I'm NOT a public employee, nor own a business with 
government ties.  I do make a good living and pay my fair 
share of taxes, so don't consider myself on the public dole...


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA !    
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From dkulha@crl.com Thu Aug 25 22:41:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1275 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Heart DC to AC Inverters
Date: 26 Aug 1994 02:39:38 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408251848.A15674-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <Cuxpn3.4Kt@freenet.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, Charles Godwin wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have experience with the Heart Interface Freedom series of
> inverters? Are there any reviews available?

I haven't seen much about the Heart series of inverters in the past few 
years. From what I hear Heart pretty much abandoned the Home system 
market to concentrate on the RV and boat markets. Home Power did an 
article in issue #36 page 34 which included a chart with the specs of 
most popular inverters. Other than specs it didn't have much to say about 
any particular units. I do know of two folks with them in their RV's who 
have had no problems.
     DCK




From tonyd@dorsai.org Fri Aug 26 00:42:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1276 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!news.dorsai.org!tonyd
From: tonyd@dorsai.org (Tony_DeVito)
Subject: Re: Magnets for HardWater?
Message-ID: <Cv3oJ0.K8H@dorsai.org>
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, New York, NY
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <Cv1rFM.4oHI@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 16:59:23 GMT
Lines: 32
Status: O
X-Status: 

arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com wrote:

: What I would appreciate is some opinions from experience and/or
: the scientific community about the idea in general and the 
: magnets already in use.

The following is my personal experience and opinion so please don't sue 
me. I put that in because I read today that Bob Dylan is suing apple 
computer today. If this is true eventually every will sue everyone else 
for everything. I especially hope it goes to trial so that I can watch 
Bob on court TV and see if he testifies with or without his harmonica.

Point 1
I have never seen a satisfactory explaination of why these things should 
even conceivably have any effect and I've heard every possible theory 
including one with osmosis of the neutrons whatever that may be.

Point 2
It's generally easier  to prove something has an effect that to prove it 
does not have an effect. Table top fusion case in point.


Point 3 
If your not happy with the results the magnets are fun to play with 
afterwards.


regards

Tony




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug 26 00:42:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1277 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 26 Aug 1994 03:51:33 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 26
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408251926.A15674-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 25 Aug 1994, Will Firstbrook wrote:

> Hi, 
> 
> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
> getting some solar panels. 
> 
> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?
> 
> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
> of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
> inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
> with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next
> winter. Has anyone tried this?

     I don't know about the exact mechanism but yes, it's feasible. 
People have been cutting blocks of ice and storing them in well insulated 
places (generally cellars or caves) for at least a couple hundred years. 
Since the average underground temp is (I believe) 55 degrees F the ice 
should last quite some time......DCK




From dkulha@crl.com Fri Aug 26 00:42:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1278 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 26 Aug 1994 03:52:37 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9408251948.A15674-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 25 Aug 1994, Will Firstbrook wrote:

> Hi, 
> 
> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
> getting some solar panels. 
> 
> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?
> 

    OOps, meant to respond to this in a earlier reply.....In general 
nowadays I understand most off-grid homes are wired for 120vac with a few 
circuits for 12vdc lighting and possibly one for a 12vdc refer (ala 
sunfrost or Norcold conversion) and possibly a 12vdc converted washing 
machine. The theory is that if the inverter fails and you don't have a 
backup at least you will have a few lights and the refer will keep 
running. It's that tact we're taking for our next home....DCK




From rabii@netcom.com Fri Aug 26 00:42:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1279 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!rabii
From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply
Message-ID: <rabiiCv3v1H.92t@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <2E5B1653.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk> <Pine.3.89.9408241041.A11655-0100000@atl1>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 19:20:05 GMT
Lines: 14
Status: O
X-Status: 


[long speeches deleted]

Some good points were made; however, wouldn't this thread be more appropriate
on a political newsgroup?  Politics seemed to be the major focus.

Thanks - 


-- 
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        *** 
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From sjaddams@cix.compulink.co.uk Fri Aug 26 21:16:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1280 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uknet!cix.compulink.co.uk!sjaddams
From: sjaddams@cix.compulink.co.uk ("s Addams Lestat Sys")
Subject: Alternative solar cell technology...
Message-ID: <Cv4182.D5B@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Lestat Systems                
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 21:33:37 GMT
X-News-Software: Ameol
Lines: 17
Status: O
X-Status: 

There was an article in New Scientist (20th August 1994) which described 
a technology, currently under development, for converting solar energy 
into electricity. The following claims were made:

        A *possible* 99% conversion efficiency
        A cost of 1 American cent per Watt
        
The technology is based on some kind of doped plastic film, and is the 
brainchild of a company based in Athol, Massachusetts, although the 
development is happening in conjunction with the Argonne National 
Laboratory in Chicago.

It looked *very* interesting, and I'd like to find out more about it, 
such as the projected completion date for the project. 
Does anyone have any further information?

TIA


From droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV Fri Aug 26 21:16:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1281 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Deep Freeze in Mountain Hole
Date: 26 Aug 1994 11:26:47 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 27
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9407267779.AA777903098@MAIL.FWS.GOV>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


Will writes:
     
>He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side 
>of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water 
>inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice 
>with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next 
>winter. Has anyone tried this?
     
     
     This might function as a freezer in the winter but would only get you 
     down to refrigerator levels in the summer.  I was in Central Siberia 
     last summer and locals there dig 20 foot holes into the permafrost.  
     They put a trap door on top and a ladder to the bottom.  During the 
     winter they keep the opening cracked so that the cold freezes the soil 
     solid, but not too much snow gets in.  The pit then stays pretty cold 
     all summer long, but becomes pretty slimy and skanky by fall.
     

   0<    0-      0<    0-      0<    0-      0<
->>)   ->>)   ->>)   ->>)   ->>)   ->>)   ->>)
  L      L      L      L      L      L      L

 NBS, 1849 C St., MS 3660, Washington D.C. 20240                           
 Sam Droege DROEGES@MAIL.FWS.GOV 202-482-3925




From jbvb@elf.com Fri Aug 26 21:16:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1282 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Small-scale grid-intertie (was Re: AE and RE list political flaming)
Date: 26 Aug 1994 04:16:00 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <33jqa0$qji@usenet.elf.com>
References: <2E5B7FC2.EF25.0000@lut.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons) writes:

>Has anyone any direct experience of connecting small scale, i.e. domestic
>of a few kW, wind and solar generation to the utility grid ?  Any experience
>of technical and utility difficulties ?

My personal experience and that of those I've talked to who've done it
correlates well with what you see in HP and other AE publications: the
US's PURPA act requires utilities to buy your power, but not for them
to pay you a rate that offers any sort of incentive.  The average
utility responds with a distinct lack of enthusiasm and a level of
bureaucracy that correlates to the utility's size.  Your mileage
is going to vary because you're in teh UK, associated with a school, etc.

Currently-available grid-intertie hardware seems to work, and the
utilities seem willing to accept that after making you and the
manufacturer jump through some number of paper hoops.  Worst case they
add <$1K to the system cost by requiring additional meters, switches,
relays, etc. in the name of "safety".
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From jbvb@elf.com Fri Aug 26 21:16:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1283 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 26 Aug 1994 04:28:08 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <33jr0o$qti@usenet.elf.com>
References: <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Will.Firstbrook@f7070.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Will Firstbrook) writes:
>... He is wiring the house for 120v and will be getting some solar panels. 
>My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

A few years ago, many people would have said "why bother with 120V in
the first place"?  The tide of opinion seems to be turning towards
skipping the 12V wiring.  The primary factor is better inverter
technology, but there is an undercurrent of reluctance to constrain
system size by using a 12V battery bank.  Once you get above 1.5kW
peak load, your copper costs and power losses get pretty ridiculous at
12V, and once you commit to a higher battery bank voltage, useful DC
appliances & lights are few & far between...
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From axel@dssdev.enet.dec.com Fri Aug 26 21:16:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1284 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: axel@dssdev.enet.dec.com (Mike Axel ZKO2-2/O04 DTN 381-2156)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Niagara Mohawk & US Electricar to build EV's in upstate NY
Date: 26 Aug 1994 14:32:57 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408261402.AA07926@us2rmc.zko.dec.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I heard on NPR last night that Niagara Mohawk, the main supplier of
electricity in upstate NY, and U.S. Electricar (Electric Car?) had
signed an agreement to build a production facility in upstate New York
to produce 1500 EV's per year, with Niagara Mohawk buying 500 per year.

Location of the facility wasn't mention, but Niagara Mohawk's 
headquarters are in the Syracuse area. I beleive they also have an 
experimental wind farm on Lake Ontario.

Mike Axel axel@dssdev.enet.dec.com


From shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Aug 26 21:16:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1285 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!shviid
From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 26 Aug 1994 15:14:25 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <33l0sh$5pp@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: top.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <207_9408251004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Will Firstbrook <Will.Firstbrook@f7070.n153.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
>side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
>"grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
>getting some solar panels.
>
>My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

How about using 24 volts, it is more efficient and the wires can be smaller.
According to articles in Home Power that seems to be the way of the future.
I would think low-voltage wiring for the fridge and other big consumers
would be enough, if you have an inverter.

>He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
>of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
>inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
>with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next
>winter. Has anyone tried this?

This method have been used for centuries in Europe, before the invention
of the freezer. They did haul in ice every winter from a nearby lake, though.
I have not heard of 'in-site' freezing, so there may be a reason for
it, maybe because they didn't have enough insulation from the surrounding
earth so the water wouldn't freeze in place?


Steen Hansen


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Sat Aug 27 11:09:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1286 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Alternative solar cell technology...
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <Cv5FLA.LD0@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 15:41:32 GMT
References: <Cv4182.D5B@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 24
Status: O
X-Status: 

s Addams Lestat Sys (sjaddams@cix.compulink.co.uk) wrote:
: There was an article in New Scientist (20th August 1994) which described 
: a technology, currently under development, for converting solar energy 
: into electricity. The following claims were made:

:         A *possible* 99% conversion efficiency
:         A cost of 1 American cent per Watt

I know that this group has it's own terminology and undertsanding about such
things, so would someone please explain to me what the heck

 "1 American cent per Watt" means?

 - is this the cost of the installation? 
 - is it somehow related to the delivery cost of the electricity?

Awfully wideband collector if it's going to collect >99% of the spectrum,
which stretches well into the infra-red and UV areas.

Please post any info that you find!
--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County



From communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca Sat Aug 27 11:09:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1287 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!news
From: communicopia@mindlink.bc.ca (Communicopia)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: PMI'94 Conference - Leadership in a World of Change
Date: 26 Aug 1994 16:58:06 GMT
Organization: Communicopia
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <33l6uu$hli@deep.rsoft.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: deep3.dial.mindlink.bc.ca
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.1
Status: O
X-Status: 

    The Project Management Institute announces the "PMI'94 Leadership in a World of
    Change" conference. 
    
    Reply to this posting to receive:
    a) more information on the conference, 
    b) a registration form, or 
    c) both. 
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              PMI '94 - PROJECT EARTH PROGRAM - NEWS RELEASE
    
    Never before has there been such a large and impressive gathering for the purpose of
    identifying  leadership roles and improved project management performance on local,
    regional, and international issues and projects related to environmental protection and
    restoration, and the development of sustainable growth projects.
    
    Join the LEADERS for this stretch to the future, where potential project team members take
    a hard look at the need for and the process of changing leadership roles in order to meet
    the requirements of environmental management and of social and economic sustainability.
    
    The Project Management Institute (PMI) will hold its 25th Annual Seminar/Symposium,
    "Leadership in a World of Change," October 14-20, 1994 in Vancouver, BC, Canada, "one
    of the six most beautiful cities in the world."  PMI will host 1200 delegates from its
    10,000+ world-wide membership.  
    
    The Project Earth/Environmental Management track is a special feature of this year's
    seminar/symposium.  Environmental Restoration (ER) spotlights the US Department of
    Energy's $400+ billion Thirty Year Plan and project management issues related to the
    program. Environmental Sustainability (ES) features the development of sustainable
    environmental ecosystems in the US and Canada.  
    
    Bill McKnight, former Canadian Minister of Energy and Mining and member of the
    Canadian NAFTA Commission will kick off the shared "Leadership and Project Earth"
    stream  with David Runnalls, Senior Advisor to the Canadian International Development
    Research Centre.  US panelists will include Randal Scott, DOE Deputy Assistant Secretary
    of ER Compliance and Program Coordination, and Peter Devlin, Senior Engineer, DOE
    Office of Field Management. 
    
    The Panel defines the challenges and opportunities related to the developing and achieving
    of sustainable international business growth and trade by the use of multi-national project
    teams.  The Panel discusses how the DOE  provides improved project management
    involving 2,000 DOE personnel and 45,000 contractor personnel, how the DOE works with
    the EPA and the Corps of Engineers to expedite and improve cleanup processes, and how
    these processes and technologies will be shared with rest of the world.  These presentations
    and the discussions that follow will set the stage and challenge the remainder of the
    Leadership and Project Earth track.
    
    Dr. Frank King, Manager of the Calgary Winter Olympics, returns to the PMI
    Seminar/Symposium as the Keynote Speaker at the Tuesday Luncheon. Dr. King introduced
    "Project Earth: A Look Back from the Future" at PMI'90  where his address motivated the
    conference to initiate the Project Earth Specific Interest Group (SIG). 
    
    Molly Harriss-Olson (the US President's National Council on Sustainable Development) and
    Ron Doering (the Canadian National Roundtable on Sustainability) join Dennis O'Gorman,
    Assistant Commissioner of the BC Resource and Environmental Council, Pat Scruggs, US
    Association of Environmental Protection and Sustainability Roundtables, Claude Lanthier,
    Chairman of the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Waterways International Joint Commission
    and Dr. Alan Artibise, Executive Director of the International Centre for Sustainable Cities
    to feature trans-boundary perspectives related to prominent international and trans-boundary
    environmental projects.
    
    This program will challenge the delegates to develop significant improvements to the project
    management of environmental problems and establish what PMI and Project Earth SIG can
    do to start such improvements.  
    
    The Workshops presented at PMI'94 will aid the delegates to answer these challenges --
    select a workshop, or better yet, a series of workshops -- design your own course in
    continuing education! Environmental Restoration, PM for the Future presents proven, state-
    of-the-art tools and methods! Sponsored by the PMI Project Earth Specific Interest Group.
    
    Consider membership and corporate/agency sponsorship of PMI and Project Earth, attend
    or provide for attendance by associates.  Contact PMI'94 at (604) 684-9311, or fax (604)
    687-3372 for further information.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Please Note: 
    Conference information will be sent via e-mail. Registration information will be faxed or
    mailed, so please include your fax number or mailing address.
    
    Anyone whose request for a registration form is received before midnight August 31, 1994,
    will be eligible for the discount ($70.00 US, $100.00 CDN). This applies to the full
    program fee only.
    
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                             C O M M U N I C O P I A
             Environmental Research and Communications
                 Ph: 604.875.9990          Fx: 604.875.9584
 WWW:  http://interchange.idc.uvic.ca/communicopia/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1288 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Jeffrey.Vandyke
From: Jeffrey.Vandyke@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeffrey Vandyke)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: SOLAR
Message-ID: <187_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 14 Aug 94 13:25:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Mshadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

-<On 08-01-94  19:27, through the porthole we saw
-<Mshadowfax say to All:

[snip]
 Ms> Another thought would be Duravolt panels - they're really rugged,
 Ms> backed with stainless steel and fronted with a Tefcell (sp?) coating
 Ms> which water and debris just slide off of. I have no doubt they could
 Ms> take whatever kind of snow loading you could envision as worst-case,
 Ms> and then some.
[snip]

Could you tell me more about these panels?  I hadn't heard of
them before.

Jeff
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Center./.NT@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1289 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Center./.NT
From: Center./.NT@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Center / NT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Powerbook in the bush
Message-ID: <191_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 19 Aug 94 01:40:43 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]MCSNet Subscriber Account, Chicago's First Public
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cnt@MCS.COM (Center / NT)
Date: 18 Aug 94 20:40:43 GMT

Colehour Arden (ez042368@dale.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
 A friend is taking a Mac powerbook into 
 the bush (literally) of Africa while doing research.  She has already 

: * finally, what about SOLAR cells to charge the long life battery?  Any 
: ideas of WHAT would be needed to make that work, WHERE to purchase said 
: items, HOW much they might cost, HOW large they might be physically 
: (wieght too), and/or other thoughts????

According to my most recent copy of the Real Goods catalog, they are 
selling a Solar panel built just for the PowerBook.  You can either
run the PowerBook directly off of the panel, or use the panel to recharge
the PowerBook's battery.  The panel also folds in half and will fit in a 
briefcase or backpack.  It sounds like this is just what your friend
needs.  They are selling it for $229.  You can call Real Goods at
1-800-762-7325.  The product number is 11-123.

Makes me wish I hade a PowerBook of my own, just so I could buy
solar panels for it.  :-) :-)

Sustainably yours,

Jonathan Goldman
---------------------------
jonathan@cnt.org


From Ian.G_.Theaker@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1290 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Ian.G_.Theaker
From: Ian.G_.Theaker@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Ian G. Theaker)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ghost posts?
Message-ID: <192_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 16 Aug 94 11:45:40 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]Integral Design/Engineering
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: igt@wimsey.com (Ian G. Theaker)
Date: 16 Aug 94 06:45:40 GMT



>In article <hatunenCuJnp0.9wq@netcom.com>, hatunen@netcom.com
>(DaveHatunen) writes:

>"I don't know if I'm the only one experiencing this. I read this group
>through Usenet, and I'm finding old articles re-appearing as unread. At
>first I thought the Netcom newsreader was screwing up, but this is the
>only group this seems to happen in.
>Has anyone else had this problem?

Me too, at wimsey.com in Vancouver.  Ghosts here seem to be from 2-3 days ago.

IGT


From Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1291 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Michael.Davis
From: Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <1ab_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 04:40:11 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Prime Connection [909]274-9637 USR/DS
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: William Goodson
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi William,

Since you are not a EE it might be easier to do the following.

Purchase a Trace Invertor, 800-1000 watts would fit you system.
Get one with a built in battery charger.
Purchase a few Deep Cycle Batteries.
Hook them up as instructed.

What you have is a system that charges the batteries from the grid, and 
powers the system from those batteries. Size the system to handle the 
computer, monitor, and other items.

When you loose power the system just keeps right on running.

Additions to the system would be any RE to charge the batteries.

A example of just a system sits in a friends house. It is 4 6volt 220AH 
gel cells in a plastic box with a 1200 watt invertor/charger installed 
with them. He says that he has at full output about 4 hrs of reserve 
power, but since he only draws about 600watts to run the system it 
really is 8 hrs. That is with everything on, he can stretch that out by 
turning off the monitor, sound, and printer. He runs a small BBS with 
it and built the system after killing a few of those little UPS.

Mike

 * RM 1.2  * Eval Day 313 * "I'm just a singer in a rock and roll band..."


From Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1292 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Michael.Davis
From: Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <1ac_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 04:55:11 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Prime Connection [909]274-9637 USR/DS
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, t
-> AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.


-> Sorry if I might be percieved to be off topic. I just hate to see a
-> valuable commodity not be used for no defendable reason. Using those

Hi Gale,

The output of a methane digester is some of the BEST stuff for the 
garden.  It is not being wasted by processing, but compacted.

Mike

 
 * RM 1.2  * Eval Day 313 * "I'm not afraid of Skydiving,"  -  Hugo First.


From Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Aug 27 11:09:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1293 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Michael.Davis
From: Michael.Davis@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane digest
Message-ID: <1ad_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 04:58:11 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Prime Connection [909]274-9637 USR/DS
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Andy Dingley
Status: O
X-Status: 


-> I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, to d
-> the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.

Hi Andy,

Go to the library and look for The Mother Earth News magazine. It had 
not only some articles but also plans for different digesters. There is 
also a couple of old MEN books with the plans in them.
(No you may not have purchase or borrow mine)

You will find articles about digesters built in India and China. I 
really like the one designed in China, made of concrete and built 
underground.

Mike

 * RM 1.2  * Eval Day 313 * "I'm very tired and I'm not feeling right."


From Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 27 11:09:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1294 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f40!p357!Tony.Weeks
From: Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Tony Weeks)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <1b5_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 18:42:41 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Down and out in Portland, Oregon.
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Will Firstbrook
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (24 Aug 94) Will Firstbrook wrote to All...

 WF> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
 WF> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
 WF> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
 WF> getting some solar panels. 
 WF> 
 WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

        I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd be
        no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a 120 volt
        circuit.

 WF> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
 WF> of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
 WF> inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
 WF> with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat
 WF> next winter. Has anyone tried this?

        My father mentioned that he saw something like the during used
        during the great depression.  I doubt it if the ice would last
        more than half way through summer unless you live in cold
        country and could get 4+ foot layer of ice on the bottom of your
        pit.

Tony

... You think you've got problems, my daughter wants a Glock.


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Sat Aug 27 11:09:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1295 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: METHANE DIGESTER/ ELECTRIC OUTLETS
Message-ID: <1cb_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 21:54:55 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Proud
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > Question for all you guys knowledgable about digesters.  I'm looking 

Brian,
 Dave Paxton is our resident expert on digesters. Although I never built one, I
read a bunch of articles in the "old" Mother Earth News; those should be
available in a library somewhere. They discussed digesters ranging from small
to ones of the size you're contemplating. There also was an article in
Ingersol-Rand's "Compressed Air" magazine a while back.
 
Having the input stock that you're describing makes a digester setup
economically feasable. It also usually eases the effort required to handle all
that manure.
 
Good luck and keep us posted!!


From Jay_Burch@nrel.gov Sat Aug 27 11:09:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1296 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nrel!jburch.nrel.gov!Jay_Burch
From: Jay_Burch@nrel.gov (Jay Burch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Magnets for HardWater?
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:15:25
Organization: NREL
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <Jay_Burch.15.000A4221@nrel.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jburch.nrel.gov
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Subject: Magnets for HardWater?
>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 16:06:57 GMT

>What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves >calc buildup all over the water system; 
nothing new living >in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well >instead of municipal 
system, so I have to treat the water.

>2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about >really strong magnet system to put 
around cold water intake to >re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't >want to 
deposit on my system. (Nice..)

>4) Some talk that these magnets are a miracle and some talk that, >well, you need more of them than 
they tell you and they're perhaps >not as effective as previously touted.

I took a brief look at magnetic conditioning some years ago, without any real corroboration, when I was 
doing a study on CaCo3 deposition in solar systems.  I learned enough to warn you to be cautious.  I will 
briefly summarize my understanding (I am not a chemist) and give you a number to call for some advice.

The best reference I obtained [paper 330 in proceedings of "Corrosion 84, April 1984) defined four 
classes of gadgets: 1) a clamp-on magnet; 2) immersed magnet with flow transverse near poles; 3) 
alternating gradient magnet;  and 4) solenoid.  First and last of these classes were claimed as "cannot 
work".  The immersed magnet seemed to work for some tests in the reference, when properly designed.  
The "alternating gradient" device (NSNSNSNS....poles alternating and "properly spaced") may also work 
if it is designed for your anticipated flow rate ranges.  There were a number of independent studies 
provided by company below, promising but not without potential for bias/abuse.  Another reference 
described a theory for this device:  It works by resonately disturbing and thence "breaking up" the water 
clusters that "physcially isolate" the super-saturated solution ions (ca++, co3--,...), preventing salt 
formation and coming out of solution, by preventing interaction between the ions.  The ions, when 
released from the "water cluster shield", then react in the bulk solution, which deposits eventually (e.g., in 
the bottom of the water storage tank) as "fines".  The solution becomes under-saturated, preventing 
crystallization on the surfaces of pipes, etc.  which is the whole point.  You trade off crystallization on 
pipes, heat exchanger surfaces, for depositing the salt fines in the bottom of some settling tank, or 
wherever the velocity is "low enough" to allow settling.

I have no direct experience that any of this works as advertised.  I am giving you my HUNCH that there 
may be something there for some kinds of engineered devices, but emptor caveat.

Try calling these guys:  Fluidyne, in CA, at 714-768-7738; they were pushing the alternating gradient 



From Jay_Burch@nrel.gov Sat Aug 27 11:09:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1297 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nrel!jburch.nrel.gov!Jay_Burch
From: Jay_Burch@nrel.gov (Jay Burch)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Cheap temperature logger
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:17:22
Organization: NREL
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <Jay_Burch.16.000A4A72@nrel.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jburch.nrel.gov
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Date: 23 Aug 1994 18:31:09 -0000


>I am interested in finding a cheap data logger to record temperature >measurements over a period of 
several days.  Does anyone know of a source >or have circuit plans so I can build one.  I am a grad 
student, so it's >really gotta be cheap.

>Thanks

Onset Instruments Corporation makes a temperature logger, called "Hobo" for about $100, 1800 single-
sample pts. logged, you specify a total logging duration (which sets an awkward "time interval" between 
each sample and log).  A required software/cable kit for PC-based logger set-up and data retrieval is 
another $50 or so.  An external thermistor on up to a six foot lead is another $16 or so.  We used these 
units on a number of projects, and they are very simple to use and the calibrations are within .3F, which 
was surprisingly good.  They also make an ugraded temp. logger called "Stowaway", which permits 
sample and average, with user-specified storage interval.  This costs about 130 for the unit, 1800 storage 
locations, with other options as for the hobo.  The Stowaway also also up to 8K memory, at modest 
additional cost.  They also have a variety of other similar logger-sensor combos, like for pressure, 
voltage, use with RTD rather than thermistor, illumination,...

These guys also make 8 single-ended channel, programmable loggers starting at $395, about 30% of the 
cost the nearest competitor that I have seen.  We have ordered some of these to try them out.

Onset's phone number: (508)563-9000

Good luck



From kingsley@hh.sbay.org Sat Aug 27 11:09:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1298 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!hilbert.dnai.com!nic.scruz.net!nbn!news.hh.sbay.org!not-for-mail
From: kingsley@hh.sbay.org (Kingsley G. Morse Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Home flywheels
Date: 25 Aug 1994 10:45:45 -0700
Organization: Hip-Hop BBS
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <33ilc9$b4r@hip-hop.hh.sbay.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hip-hop.hh.sbay.org
Status: O
X-Status: 

Is there a flywheel on the market that stores electrical energy from
home solar PV panels and windwills? It seems like a cleaner solution 
than batteries....

Thanks,
Kingsley


From cyburg@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:41:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1299 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 27 Aug 1994 11:57:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33nnog$9r8@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <7fb_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <7fb_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Proud) writes:

Hello Brain;
I have been using a Sun Frost RF 12 ( 12 cubic feet) in my solar powered
home for about 7 years trouble free.  It is great to not have to buy
propane to run my frig.  If you are grid connected I know that Sun Frost
makes an AC model.  Of course if you are off-grid you can use an AC
SunFrost on a good inverter too.
I personally prefer DC, since I have that choice, because if the inverter
breaks then your SunFrost is still working.
Cynthia Loweburg


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1300 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Message-ID: <11f_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 01:46:18 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry H Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

I agree w/you on the need for open info exchange. That's why i got a modem,
after all. The fact remains that the title is "HOME Power", read, alternative,
energy. Nuclear doesn't qualify as alternative or renewable and so doesn't
belong here. No religious fervor in that, just the facts. Otherwise, i, for
one, welcome your input.


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1301 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: YOUR CARBURETOR
Message-ID: <120_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 15:59:54 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding synchronous generation of power by induction motors; yes, they will
sontinue to generate power once the excitation is removed, as long as they are
not overloaded.  I tried it myself to find out, and the thing worked as long as
a surge didn't knock it off.  One key part of the whole setup is the size of
the capacitors you put between the legs of the induction motor's leads; more
capacitance = lower voltage, higher amps.  I did this with a single phase
motor, just to see if they would work, and though it didm, I'd reccomend
3phase.


From ALAN.MULLER,.L13E60,.366-3468@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1302 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!ALAN.MULLER,.L13E60,.366-3468
From: ALAN.MULLER,.L13E60,.366-3468@psybbs.durham.nc.us (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: generator efficiency diesel v propane....
Message-ID: <12a_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 18:10:25 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Date: 20 Aug 94 13:10:25 GMT


If you go through Onan generator literature--data sheets for different models,
get from a distributor--you can pull out fuel consumption figures to compare. 

Typically:

Diesel is more efficient, especially at part load.  The realized advantage
depends on what you are comparing.  Modern overhead valve, high compression
gasoline engines are much better in this regard than the traditional "flathead"
low compression engines Onan (for example) mostly makes.  Similarly, direct
injection diesels are more efficient (10% or so?) than the traditional indirect
injection types.  So, be aware of the details of what you are comparing.

Propane will give about the same btu/KWh results as gasoline, burned in the
same engine.  Propane lends itself to higher compression ratios, which improve
thermal efficiency, so an engine optimized for propane could be a bit more
efficient.  Propane is often very expensive on a btu basis, at least around
here.

Do you want to live and/or work in the plume of toxic, carcinogenic particulate
that small diesels produce?

am


From William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1303 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!William.Lord
From: William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Newbie Needs Advice
Message-ID: <12b_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 18:52:37 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 43
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Date: 20 Aug 94 13:52:37 GMT

You'll get lots of responses on this.  You're asking the right questions 
as well.

All will tell you to forget the air conditioning unless you are prepared 
to build and evaporative version described in this month's or last  
month's home power.

My wife and I are presently constructing a solar house in Maine.  We will 
have a LARGE array on the roof plus solar thermal panels for heat/hot water.

Steven Strong, our architect, has written a fine book on the Solar 
Electric House...it's high quality and high cost.  You should also know 
about Read Goods Trading...they sell solar related equipment plus run a 
pretty impressive newsletter service.  

Good luck, but listen to your wife.  Don't do nothin' till you're halfway 
up to speed.

Bill Lord-Boston

On Fri, 19 Aug 1994, Randy K. Wilson wrote:

> 
> Hi gang,
> I just picked up Home Power out of curiosity when I saw it at Barnes 
> and Noble.  Wow ! Great Stuff !  My wife is restraining me from yanking
> my power meter until I actually get something installed and running :) !
> SO:
> How can I learn more about cost/feasibility/etc. ? Any good books or
> other resources you can suggest ?  Is it possible to run a typical
> suburban home with lots of computers, appliances, and serious air-cond. use
> off solar panels and/or windmill ?  What kind of dollars are we talking ?
> Excuse the excess enthusiasm, its just that I have this fantasy about
> telling various utilities to stick it.  Now if we could just come up with
> an alternative to the phone company !
> 
> Thanks,
> rwizard@america.net
> 
> 


From MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1304 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!MShadowfax
From: MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power Question (towers)
Message-ID: <12c_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 20:15:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 28
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Date: 20 Aug 94 15:15:02 GMT

In article <333jr0$o0f@clarknet.clark.net>, kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T.
Cornelius) writes:

"That's a fairly standard operation.  I assume you plan to have your tower

held in place with four guys.  The idea is to prepare your anchor points 
and guy wires ahead of time.  Attach three guy wires so that they will 
hold the tower after it is raised.  The attach a short  pole at right 
angles to the tower at its base.  You are using pipe so you could put an 
elbow at the bottom and screw in an eight-foot length of pipe.  This pipe 
should be sticking straight up.  Attach a strong line to your remaining 
guy wire and run it over the end of your pipe to a truck or something.  
Then you use the truck to pull the whole affair upright.  Put a couple of 
people on the side guy wires to keep things straight"



     This is about how I thought it would go. Someone has also proposed
the use of ham-radio tower components. They described them as cheap
($30-40 for ten foot sections) and very durable with high load capacities
and guy-less installations to 100'+ (I only need maybe 30-40' if that).
The only catch is having to climb the tower for maintenance purposes
(NBD). Any thoughts?

Shadowfax


From Jeff.Waddell@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:41:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1305 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jeff.Waddell
From: Jeff.Waddell@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jeff Waddell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Message-ID: <12d_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 10:33:17 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]Information Network of Kansas
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: waddell@waddell.ink.org (Jeff Waddell)
Date: 20 Aug 94 05:33:17 GMT

On 17 Aug 1994 04:04:59 GMT, Harry H Conover (conover@max.tiac.net) wrote:

[interesting power source info. deleted]

: -->ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
: -->    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
: -->    through use of a collector on top the mast.


It will probably work, but won't your collector on the top of the mast 
serve as a lightening rod?  If so, I wouldn't want to be on that boat in 
an Electical storm!!!

	If not--cool!!! free power for every one!!!

		Jeff
		waddell@waddell.ink.org


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:41:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1306 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f525!p3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <12e_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 01:19:19 GMT
Organization: [Fido] A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dennis Keim
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (10 Aug 94) Dennis Keim wrote to Ian Woofenden...

 IW> I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
 IW> pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

 DK> "Among the highly mutagenic (and in one expert's memorable
 DK> words, 'horrendously carcinogenic') emissions are also
 DK> nitro-PAHs [Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) such as
 DK> nitrofluranthene, which come from diesel combustion." ...

Thanks for the quotes. Anybody care to argue with them?

I don't like the smell or racket of diesels either, and they always
*sound* like they are going to break down any minute.

Now let's see if I can steer this on-topic...

We're not going to get 100% renewable anytime in the near future,
but I think for the things we can't use renewables for, we should
certainly think about what is the most benign. Diesels are loved by
their fans for their thriftiness and reliability, two fine
qualities. I just wonder if there are ways to accomplish the same
goals without the pollutants, smell, and noise levels.



Ian



... A distraction is only a distraction if you pay attention to it.


From Doug.Bashford@f129.n102.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:41:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1307 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n102!f129!Doug.Bashford
From: Doug.Bashford@f129.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Doug Bashford)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free Fido GREEN BBSs
Message-ID: <13d_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 15:03:52 GMT
Organization: [Fido] ONE WORLD Los Angeles 310-372-0987
Lines: 123
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


  
  Subj: New GREEN BBS List!   1/3

 Many (most?) of these BBSs are set up by volunteers and are 
 totally free.  Each has a different flavor...
   
   Yep, Western Ancient Forest Campaign  said to All on 18 Aug
      about: WAFC Forest Updates Available by Su....
 WAFC> FROM:     Steve Holmer, Western Ancient Forest Campaign, 


 * Original From: Bob Chapman, 1:372/50@fidonet.org
 * Original Date: Jul 02 06:52

 >> Date For This Official 3rd Quarter 1994 Release: July 1, 1994! <<<

**********************************************************************
GreenNet (tm) GREEN BBS List For Environmental Bulletin Board Systems!
**********************************************************************
>>> Date For This Official 3rd Quarter 1994 Release: July 1, 1994! <<<
-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-
NOTE!: Numerous Bulletin Board Systems Have Environmental Conferences,
So THIS List Is Comprised Of Those Either PRIMARILY Environmental, The
HOST Of An Environmental Relay Themselves Or Just Worthy Of Inclusion.
If YOU Know Of ANY Missing &/Or Incorrect Information, PLEASE TELL US!
Call In Your Update(s) To GreenNet c/o Earth Art BBS At (803) 552-4389
Or Send Your Message To RIME's Great OUTDOORS Or Environmental Issues!
We're Carrying ALL Environmental Echoes Riding On The FidoNet Backbone
& Will Also Accept Updates By Sky-Link! (QWK-Mail Via Satellite Dish!)
Use Special GREENBBS Door To Add/Update/Download Lists Or Eco-BBS Ads!
(To Enter GREENBBS Door, Just Type "GREENBBS" At The Main Board Menu!)
See Why We Were Selected As The International Hub For The Sierra Club!
RIME\PostLink\PCRelay: EARTHART (#1646) & HubEARTH - FidoNet: 1:372/50
Internet Address: bob.chapman@f50.n372.z1.fidonet.org or @earthart.com
**********************************************************************
Thanks To GREEN BBS Callers, The GREEN BBS List Is A "Worldwide HIT"!!
**********************************************************************

 NAME OF BULLETIN BOARD   PHONE NUMBER  BAUD HR   NAME OF SYSOP    BBS
________________________  ____________ _____ __ _________________  ___
Abalone Alliance (Calif)  415-861-2510 14400 24 Roger Herried      MAX
Alter. Treatment (ATTIC)  301-670-3808  2400 24 Joyce Perdek/EPA   PCB
Alternatives ($)(Canada)  604-430-8080  9600 24 Bob Lyons          MAJ
American Hydrogen Assoc.  415-494-3116 14400 24 Howard H. Smith    WIL
AmNet-Aurora Node (Col.)  303-364-2257 16800 24 Louis Lawson       TBB
AmNet-HQ Node (Colorado)  303-680-7791  2400 24 James Cherry       TBB
AmNet-NYC(New York City)  212-784-6826 16800 24 John Frederick     TBB
Atlanta Green (Georgia).  404-874-9339 14400 24 Greg Fenn          PCB
Bird Info Network ($-CO)  303-423-9775 14400 24 Terry Rune         TBB
Boating Law Reference BB  909-734-7717  9600 N2 John Donaldson     WIL
Bulldog-Eagle Link (KS).  913-582-4636  2400 24 Jon Rueck          TBB
CBFWA (Fish & Wildlife!)  503-326-7792  2400 24 Shawn Swagerty     WIL
CCS BBS (For Eco-Topics)  410-476-5098  9600 24 Jo Campbell (Mod.) PCB

Canadian EarthCare Socy.  604-769-5097 14400 24 Jim Dixon(ENVIRON) MAX
Capricorn Rising (RIME).  503-370-9777  2400 24 Bob Covington      GAP
Center of Enviro R&D(OH)  513-569-7610  9600 24 Jose Perez (EPA!)  PCB
Classroom Earth BBS (MI)  517-797-2737 14400 24 Dennis Hauser      TBB
Coin of the Realm BBS...  301-585-6697  2400 24 Dan Wendling(CSRV) PCB

Colorado Sierra Club....  303-860-1242  2400 24 Mark Collier       SEA
Continental Divide BBS..  601-957-3016 14400 24 Mike Seal          AUN
Coyote Gulch (Colorado).  719-578-1340 14400 24 Scott Robert Ladd  MAX
Deep Cove BBS $ (Canada)  604-536-5889 16800 24 Wayne Duval (B.C.) TBB
EEC (EnviroEquipment/CA)  714-644-4181 14400 24 Bjorn Sundbakken   PCB
EPA Cleanup Info(CLU-IN)  301-589-8366  2400 24 Dan Powell(EPA/TIO)PCB
EPA-NPS(NonPoint Source)  301-589-0205  9600 24 Judy Trimarchi/EPA PCB
EPA-OAQPS (Air Quality).  919-541-5742  2400 24 Hersch Rorex       TBB
EPA-PIN (Pesticide Info)  703-305-5919  2400 24 The EPA          (7E1)
EPA Online Library (OLS)  919-541-4642  9600 24 Joe Steigerwald  (7E1)

Earth Art BBS (GreenNet)  803-552-4389 28800 24 Bob Chapman (RIP!) PCB
Earthshine BBS1 (Canada)  604-361-9053 14400 24 Catherine Gregory  PCB
Earthshine BBS2 (Canada)  604-361-9063 14400 24 Catherine Gregory  PCB
EcoLink BBS (Maine).....  207-353-7670 28800 24 Rob Waite          REN
Eco-Net $ (On InterNet!)  415-322-0284  2400 24 Geoff Sears       X-25
Ecology Research (USFWS)  303-226-9365  2400 24 Joe Richards       MAJ
Economics & Environment.  604-261-0310  2400 24 Art Powell (Canada)QBB
Electric Ideas (Wash.ST)  206-586-6854 14400 24 Greg Ware          MAJ
Environaut BBS (Florida)  407-872-8590 14400 24 David Duckworth    ROB
Environment Arkansas!...  501-570-2868  9600 24 Tom Ezell          WIL
Environmental Action BBS  207-439-0633 16800 24 John Burns          RA
Environmental BBS 1 (CA)  619-299-4018  2400 24 Geoffrey Smith     SEA
Environmental BBS 2 (CA)  619-299-4032 14400 24 Geoffrey Smith     SEA
Environet 1 (Greenpeace)  415-512-9108  2400 24 Dick Dillman       TBB
Environet 2 (Greenpeace)  415-512-9120 14400 24 Dick Dillman       TBB
Enviro BBS (Eco-Science)  703-524-1837 14400 24 Kurt Riegel        RBB
Fish House BBS (EcoGulf)  601-460-5970 16800 24 Rick Cooke         MAX
Garden Pond BBS (Oregon)  503-735-3074 16800 24 Jack Honeycutt     MAX
Glendale Litera (Nature)  818-956-6164 14400 24 Abel Iwaz          WIL
Greenseen (B.C. Canada).  604-754-9449 14400 24 Murray Rodgers     MAX

HOME BBS (Organic/Agric)  317-539-6579  9600 24 Cissy Bowman       QBB
Hazardous Material(HMIX)  708-972-3275  9600 24 Cathy Gerard       PCB
HeartBeat Earth BBS (CA)  408-257-2306  2400 24 Marcus Johnson     WIL
Helix BBS (Wash. State).  206-783-6368 14400 24 Scott Parks         RA
Herb Patch, The (Canada)  604-545-8068  2400 N1 Shanta McBain       RA
Home Power Communication  707-822-8640 14400 24 Michael Welch      TBB
Howard's Notebook(3Node)  816-331-5868 16800 24 Jim Howard(GreenMO)WIL
Land of Sky BBS (N.C.)..  704-254-7800  2400 24 Michael Havelin    PCB
MN-Lakes BBS (Minnesota)  612-296-8811  9600 24 Bruce Wilson(MPCA) PCB
MNS Online (Eco-Linking)  518-381-4430  2400 24 Don Rittner        Mac
Makaao BBS (Eco-Hawaii).  808-672-8276 14400 24 Dennis Leong       PCB
NALMS BBS (N.Amer.Lakes)  612-783-9064  2400 24 B.Wilson/J.Vennie  PCB
NASA SpaceLink (Alabama)  205-895-0028  9600 24 Bill Anderson     Mini
OEA (Off.Enviro.Affairs)  202-208-7119 14400 24 John Sell (D.O.I.) WIL
OSH Exchange ($, Canada)  416-572-2307  9600 24 Chris Moore        TBB

One World (Fido/Usenet).  310-372-0987 14400 24 Larry Fletcher     MAX
Osprey's Nest (Birding).  301-989-9036  9600 24 Norm Saunders      ROS
PPIC (Pollution Preven.)  703-506-1025  2400 24 The EPA            PCB
Parameters$(ID=PRESERVE)  618-549-8448 14400 24 Bob Pauls          WIL

Penguin Point(Fido Ecol)  414-338-4897 16800 24 Lon Levy            RA
Puffin's Nest(MD/BayCon)  410-437-3463 16800 24 Dave Bealer        MAX
SWICH (Solid Waste Info)  301-585-0204  2400 24 The EPA & SWANA    PCB

(Continued to next message)



... "The more people on this planet the better." : Rush Limbaugh


From David.Dix@f90.n772.z3.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:41:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1308 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z3!n772!f90!David.Dix
From: David.Dix@f90.n772.z3.fidonet.org (David Dix)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <144_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 02:26:11 GMT
Organization: [Fido] ===  Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand  ===
Lines: 61
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Lou Schneider
Status: O
X-Status: 

>The simplest and probably most energy efficient solution to powering a
>computer from 12 VDC is to get an appropriately sized inverter and plug
>the computer's power cord into the inverter's 120 VAC socket.  

Eh? I have to disagree with this, from 12v DC to 120VAC back to 5V DC
and +-12V DC is efficient?

>Modern
>inverters operate with over 95% efficiency, so you're not losing much in
>the conversion.

Not all inverters are anywhere near this efficient. 95% if all you want is
a square wave output with all sorts of odd characteristics as it gets
loaded. When the inverter is designed to use a modified square wave or
even produce a sine wave then complexity increases and the 9 part of your
efficiency figure soon drops way down. And a computer with a rectifier and 
filter capacitor psu would really (not!) enjoy a 240VAC square wave supply.

>The computer's power supply converts 120 VAC to the
>various voltages the computer needs at about the same efficiency.

Ohhhh, I think that is leaning real heavy on that word 'about' :-)
Last time I measured the input current to a modern computer switch mode
psu and looked at the output currents, did the wattage sums and the
efficiency was more often than not around the 70% to 75% mark.
Some el cheapo psu in computers would be lucky to be 50%.

>  More
>importantly, the stock supply contains all of the voltage regulation and
>voltage and current limits needed to protect the computer's circuity.

Hmmm, very few computer power supplies on PCs seem to be that good. I 
have measured +12v supplies that waggle about from below +9V to above +15V
and +5v rails that hover around 4.7V
It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that as computer prices get lower
the quality of their PSU reduces too. I suspect that computer electronics
are so cheap now that there is no justification in providing good quality
PSUs with excellent regulation and over current protection etc..

> 
>Enjoy!

There seems to be quite a few switch mode type convertors designed for
powering computers that operate from a single DC supply in the 10V to
35V range. 
One I use is based on a regulator from Thomson, its an L296 device that
with the addition of a few external components will make a reasonable
computer PSU with 5V, -5V, 12V, and -12V outputs.
I use one of these to power a Sun Sparcstation that is used for a BBS.
Before moving the Sparc to a battery supply I made a few changes to it
in an effort to reduce its power needs. The nine chip 4meg simms were
replaced with newer 3chip cmos types, I removed the floppy drive as it
wasn't needed anyway, and replaced the hard disk with a newer lower power
type that only needs 9W of power (a 3.5inch, 1 inch high Hitachi DK625
580meg type).

Anyhow the L296 based psu runs about 90% efficiency, generates little heat
and was easy to construct and install.

dgd
(dgd@kcbbs.gen.nz)


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:41:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1309 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n147!f34!p13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Ice house
Message-ID: <15f_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 26 Aug 94 21:34:34 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Will Firstbrook
Status: O
X-Status: 


 WF> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
 WF> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
 WF> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
 WF> getting some solar panels.

 WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

Why not?  It's a whole lot easier to install wiring while you're building than
to install it after you've built.  Many RV's are dual wired.  The added expense
isn't that great.

 WF> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
 WF> of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
 WF> inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
 WF> with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next
 WF> winter. Has anyone tried this?

Your friend has an old, tried and true idea.  "Ice houses" were widely used in
the last century (primarily in the north and northeast parts of the country). 
They cut large blocks of ice from the nearest body of water in the winter to
store in them and commonly used sawdust for insulation.  During the summer,
they would have a source of ice (indeed a precious commodity then) as well as
storage for meat, etc.  For one example, visit Hyde Park (Franklin Roosevelt's
boyhood home).

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:41:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1310 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n285!f203!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Twit filter use
Message-ID: <168_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 23:14:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Willey
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave Willey told Dave Skinner regarding usenet link :

DW>As  much  as I hate to admit defeat, I tend to agree.  This USED to
DW>be a very interesting place to exchange ideas on REAL-WORLD  "small"
DW>(single family  sized)  power systems using proven designs, as well as
DW>new tech.

DW>I  for  one  am getting tired  of this nuke dribble.

Why do you seem to feel so helpless to do anything about this?  There are only
a few people who are involved in the "nuke dribble" and they can be very
effectively eliminated from your view by the use of the "twit filter" option if
you are reading this with an offline mail reader.

Most offline mail readers have this feature built into them but it appears it
is rarely used.

I personally have only used it once when it was obvious that this person was
just being contrary and not constructive in his thoughts and so I notified him
not to bother to post to me since I wouldn't be seeing it anyhow.

This way I get to dialog with who I wish and ignore the rest.

Just my two cents on the whole dribble/censorship debate.  If people want to
argue let them do so.  If not then just turn the twit filter on!  <g>




===
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * I'm anti-semantic.  I don't pay my syntax!


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1311 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n285!f203!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <169_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 23:14:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 51
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ian Woofenden told Eric Gray regarding Electrical Generators :

IW> EG> Buy a diesel generator! Much safer, much more fuel efficient.

IW>I've heard it said that diesels put out a higher level of air
IW>pollutants than gas. Does anyone know anything about this?

From: "How Green Were Our Hopes For Diesel?" by William Bown, _New Scientist_,
4 June 94, pp. 47- :

        "In March, this magazine reported the views of Joel Schwartz, an
         epidemiologist at the US government's Environmental Protection
         Agency, on particulates less than 10 micrometres in diameter -
         the so-called PM10 ("Dying from too much dust", 12 March [94,
         _New Scientist_])."

        "Schwartz calculates the number of deaths in England and Wales
         from PM10 from all sources to be 10,000 a year."

        "Those most at risk are probably people with asthma, the elderly
         and others with weak lungs.  If diesel emissions account for 30
         percent of the PM10 emissions from all sources (as suggested by a
         recent report for the Department of the Environment), then the
         adviser's estimate makes some sense."

The rest of the article goes into why there is so little response by
governmental agencies in charge of protecting the citizenry from this hazard.

Another reference is _The Toxic Cloud: The Poisoning of America's Air_ by
Michael H. Brown (1987) which notes:

        "Among the highly mutagenic (and in one expert's memorable words,
         'horrendously carcinogenic') emissions are also nitro-PAHs
         [Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) such as nitrofluranthene,
         which come from diesel combustion." p. 259

and:

        "...a study by the National Cancer Institute found truck drivers
         exposed to diesel pollution in Detroit to have 11.9 times the
         lower urinary cancer of an unexposed group.  A similar study
         showed the same in London.  Each year, said NRDC, from thirty to
         eight thousand excess lung cancers might be caused in America by
         diesel pollutants.  The particulates are not ony chemically
         overloaded but also of the size that can penetrate the lung." p.
         260



===
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * Windows 3.1: From the People Who Brought You EDLIN!


From Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1312 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n285!f203!Dennis.Keim
From: Dennis.Keim@f203.n285.z1.fidonet.org (Dennis Keim)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Overspeed troubles
Message-ID: <16a_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 20 Aug 94 23:14:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Flite-Line BBS Lincoln Nebraska (402) 421-2434
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Welch
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael Welch told Greg Balfanz regarding Best charge controller? :

MW>In wind and hydro systems, you need to use all the power that is
MW>being put out all the time, or the unit will overspin itself into
MW>oblivion.

Not with regard to wind plants!

I don't know about hydro plants but almost all commercial wind plants have
non-load related governing mechanisms just to deal with non-load overspeed
conditions.  This goes from blade pitching/warping, turning the rotor out of
the wind upwards or sideways or using alternative aerodynamic loading methods. 
There are some very small units that don't have any control system for
overspeeds but they are small and are designed to handle no-load overspeeds.





===
 * WinQwk 2.0 a#752 * A clear conscience is a sure sign of a bad memory.


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1313 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Not theft
Message-ID: <16b_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 36
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Latta
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 16-Aug-94 01:26:45
santarosa,ca,usa

 ++
BL> I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling.
BL> Nothing
BL> is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only converted  from
BL> one
BL> form to another).  The power taken by induction comes from the power
BL> company'
BL> s transmission lines.  The power company thus supplies this power
BL> whether
BL> there is an electrical wire connection or magnetic induction is used.
BL> You
BL> are using the same mechanism (induction) that the power company uses in
BL> its
BL> transformers to pull power off the grid at any substation.  Only the
BL> geometry is different.
 ++

bullSteamingCrap,  those powerlines run all over MY planet spilling out
electromagnetic waves and magnetic field E-V-E-R-Y INCH OF THE WAY, into the
air, into my head...
they are free waves in the air (a waste product no less),  and you may use
them(or not:)  as YOU see fit!

 This really is MEANINGLESS to the issue but am i correct in thinking that this
is not actually using the power companies electricity, but converting their
waste into useable energy.  The only loss the pCompanies face is that people no
longer need to PAY them for eletric.
 anybody?

zachariahCzeck
 jorganist@nermal.santarosa.edu

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1314 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Zachariah.Czeck
From: Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Zachariah Czeck)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Huhh?
Message-ID: <16c_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tim Mullen
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tuesday 16-Aug-94 02:14:14
santarosa,ca,usa

 ++
TM> >the power company's responsibility to shield us from the potentially
TM> >dangerous form of radiation, thereby not only securing it's valuable
TM> >property but protecting the general public as well?

TM> >Shadowfax


TM>   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?
 ++

you are joking aren't you Tim?
 zachariahCzeck

 * Q-Blue 0.93 [NR] *


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1315 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: flywheel ev prototyp
Message-ID: <16d_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Richard Russell
Status: O
X-Status: 


 RR> I would be interested in hearing more about the AFS (what does that
 RR> stand for) and sources on the two flywheel designs you mention. I've
 RR> been curious about the use of large flywheels for home power storage as
 RR> well as combining flywheels with a hovercraft design, something that in
 RR> it's nature tends to stay reasonably level as it travels. Any direction
 RR> towards sources of info and/or thoughts on these ideas would be most
 RR> appreciated. Richard Russell

AFS (American Flywheel Systems) address is --
     P.O.Box 449
     Medina, WA. 98039

They have designed flywheels for the space program, so have some knowledge base
to go on (although building a flywheel for a moving vehicle is somewhat
different) and had contracted with 3M to build to actual flywheel batteries
when they are ready.

It's my understanding that they approached the Big 3 auto companies with their
prototypes, but they were not interested, so AFS decided to build their own car
to showcase the technology.



... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA ! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1316 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: solar
Message-ID: <16e_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 43
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Avery
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JA> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?

 JA> The application that I am involved in will have 60
 JA> 2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the
 JA> roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
 JA> WA state .

 JA> That's 480 square feet of relatively expensive panels and
 JA> the customer is concerned about snow load . Right now the
 JA> design is to mount the panels on rails that are bolted to
 JA> the roof running the width of the modules , the 2 foot span.
 JA> The rails cross the 4 foot length of the modules at 1 foot
 JA> and 3 feet.  The modules would be about 5 inches off of the roof .

 JA> The roof is at an angle of about 15 degrees , fairly flat.

 JA> A snow fall of 20 - 30 feet would not be surprising at this
 JA> location and it would probably pile up to this depth on top
 JA> of the modules.

 JA> ? WILL THEY GET CRUNCHED ?

 JA> Do they need further bracing ?

Sounds like you'll have some other things to consider also, like where will
power for those rest stops come from when the snow covers those panels... 
solar panels need the sunlight to reach them to produce power... ANY blockage
of sunlight, to ANY CELL on the panel will cause a considerable reduction in
power output.

I would think that tilting the panels to capture more of the sun would be the
best bet to keep snow off of them and to capture the most amount of sunlight
and therefore power generation by the panels.  You should also put the panels
near the edge of the roof, so the snow will fall onto the ground and not just
build up against the panels.

Better yet, put them on a tower of some type with a solar tracker to get the
lost output from those panels. You could probably cut down the total number of
panels being used and put up the tower for the same cost...


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA ! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1317 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Free power?
Message-ID: <16f_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 22
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ken Finney
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Ken Finney to Zachariah Czeck <=-

 KF> Actually, I believe Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has
 KF> published a paper on how EVs could produce more pollution
 KF> than internal combustion vehicles.  Not someone I would
 KF> call a crackput.

Nope, not at all.  But I think your misconstruing what he might have said.

In fact Amory is a big fan of Hybrid type vehciles, both to reduce our
dependance on foreign oil (for National Security reasons) and to better our
environment.

Another source for you to consider which are not crackpots is the Union of
Concerned Scientists.  This groups issued a report indicating that Electric
Vehicles will provide over $17,000.00 per vehicle in reduced emisions costs to
industry and government.  I have sent their newsrelease under a seperate
header.


... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA ! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1318 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Tony.Cygan
From: Tony.Cygan@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Tony Cygan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emmisions testing/ev's
Message-ID: <170_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 42
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Arthur Torrey
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Arthur Torrey to Tony Cygan <=-

 AT> I would point out that according to studies done in CA, only about
 AT> 10% of the cars on the road account for about 90% of the automotive
 AT> pollution.
 AT> There exists economically priced, easy to operate, reliable
 AT> technology that  would allow the gov't to concentrate its pollution
 AT> enforcement efforts on  that 10%, by identifying them in traffic, and
 AT> ticketing them for failure to  meet standards.

 AT> This could be done either in addition to or instead of the
 AT> current annual check
 AT> system that does very little to catch the 10% of vehicles that offend,
 AT> but  costs the non offending driver large amounts of $$$, and makes the
 AT> inspection station operators considerable money....

 AT> However the C.A.R.B. has chosen *NOT* to implement such a system...

I -hate- to disagree with you Art, but I live in California and they are
testing such a system as I type this message.

The program is called "Smog Check II".

Remote sensing equipment is placed by the roadside and uses lasers and high
speed cameras to pick out offending vehicles.  The owners of these cars are
then sent a notice to appear at a State of California inspection site to get
their vehicle tested.  There are no costs for the test and no tickets are
supposed to be handed out, unless you don't appear for the test (in which case
it could cost you $250.00).

These tests are happening here in Sacramento and in Los Angeles and have been
going on for about a month now. Why are they doing this, why to help cut down
on the excess pollution being spewwed by older cars, to catch some of the
private inspection stations who are selling their services and ultimately
improve our air quality.

Once the tests are completed a determination will be made on whether it was a
succesfull program and should be continued (or something else takes it's
place).

... Support ZEV regulations.  Call or write the EPA ! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1319 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emf's in home wiring, ap
Message-ID: <171_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 45
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Peter Caffell
Status: O
X-Status: 

> |TD>How does the electromagnetic field created by a 12- or 24- volt DC  >
|TD>house wiring compare with that produced by the establishment's AC   >
|TD>house wiring?  Also, what home power-style electrical parts produce
> The DC magnetic flux would produce a non-alternating single
> polarity, similar to a fixed magnet.  The strength of the
> field created would be the same as that for an AC circuit using
> the same Wattage.

Magnetic flux is proportional to the amount of CURRENT flowing through a
conductor.  Wattage is Voltage times Current, so the above is true only if
you're comparing circuits of identical voltages.  Most off the grid houses use
12- or 24- volt circuits, so for a given power consumption you'll have 10 times
as much current compared to 120- or 240- volt circuits, and there'll be 10
times the amount of magnetic flux present. Of course, if the circuits are DC
you have (supposedly) benign constant amplitude EMF instead of the fluxuating
field produced by AC, but you'll still have 10 times more of the stuff at the
lower voltages.

Anything that causes the voltage to deviate from a pure and steady DC voltage
will produce AC EMF.  If you're charging your battery from a generator
(whatever the prime mover - wind, water or an engine), if you have a Pulse
Duration charging regulator on your solar panels, if you're feeding an
inverter, if you're running a DC motor, even if you're only cycling a light
bulb on and off, you're producing some amount of AC EMF all of your current
carrying DC lines.  And since there's 10 times as much current present at 12
volts versus 120 volts, you only have to vary the input voltage by 1/10th of
it's DC value to produce as much AC EMF as if you were using 120 volt power. 
In other words, 1.2 volts of charging ripple in a 12 volt DC system will
produce as much EMF as a conventional 120 VAC circuit.

Most digital volt meters will let you measure the ripple on a DC circuit by
simply selecting the AC range while measuring a DC circuit.  The reading is the
amount of ripple present.

> Considering that the 40fps scan rate of a TV screen can semi
> comatose the brain into a non-critical state

ROFL!!!  I never quite considered it in that light. <g>  I'm not sure about NZ,
but here in the U.S. television scan rates are matched to the commercial power
line frequency, 60 fields per second.  In most countries with 50 Hz power the
scan rates are either 25 or 50 Hz. Matching the scan rates to the local power
frequency allows sets to get by with considerably less filtering in their power
supplies.

Enjoy!


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1320 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: solar
Message-ID: <172_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Avery
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Can a heavy snow load damage PV solar panels ?

> The application that I am involved in will have 60
> 2x4 foot Solarex modules mounted close-spaced on the
> roof of a rest stop in the North Cascade mountains in
> WA state .

> The roof is at an angle of about 15 degrees , fairly flat.

Solar panels are about as strong as an equivalent piece of tempered glass. 
You'd probably be better off mounting them at a steeper angle - this would not
only help shed excess snow, but would increase the amount of power the panels
will produce.  For optimum power they should be mounted at right angles to the
sun's path, or at an angle equal to your local latitude (45 degrees?).

It's also very important that none of the panel is shadowed.  All of the
individual cells must be illuminated for the panel to produce power - shadowing
as few as one or two cells can completely shut down the panel.

Sounds like you're caught between a couple of extremes.  You could mount them
flush to a reinforcing panel - like glass, you're looking at supporting weight
over a span instead of absolute pressure.  On the other hand, restricting
airflow behind the panel will cause it's operating temperature to rise,
reducing the amount of power it will produce on a hot summer day.

Enjoy!


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1321 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: snatching induction f
Message-ID: <173_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Mshadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

>> I am surprised that the court rulled as it did.  This is steeling.
>> Nothing is free and energy can not be created or destroyed (only
>> converted from one form to another).  The power taken by induction
>> comes from the power company's transmission lines.

> Yes, the process is pretty much identical to that used in a
> transformer - and perhaps in a way it is stealing since energy can
> neither be created nor destroyed.  My question here is what would
> happen to this radiated energy where someone NOT to come along and
> "harvest" it?

The free air surrounding a high voltage power line (or the earth surrounding an
underground line) causes the line to have a characteristic impedance along it's
length.  A certain amount of the power company's energy is lost to this
environment.

If you place a power collection device next to a power line, you've changed the
line's operating environment.  Your device will increase the operating loss of
the line. The amount of increased loss will be the power you consumed times the
efficiency of the collection device (which has to be less than unity).

Whether this effect can be measured or not depends on the percentage of the
line's capacity you're siphoning off.

Look at it as another example...  a company has an aquaduct flowing across your
property.  Some of the water is lost as seepage into the ground immediately
adjacent to the aquaduct.  Let's say the soil is clay-like, so once it's
saturated with water the leakage from the aquaduct slows to virtually nothing. 
If you install a pump to collect this groundwater, and doing so increases the
amount of seepage from the aquaduct, are you guilty of stealing water?


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1322 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar south calculation
Message-ID: <174_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Richard Russell
Status: O
X-Status: 

> AJF> (1) How do you determine the location of "Solar South" as
> AJF> opposed to the  "Magnetic South"?

Measure the direction of the sun at Solar Noon.

How do you find Solar Noon?   Easy...

1) Find the times of local sunrise and local sunset for a particular day.  
Midway between these times is Solar Noon.  At Solar Noon shadows point to Solar
North.

2) Put a vertical stick in the ground.  A couple of times an hour mark the
longest point of the stick's shadow with a pebble.  The point where the shadow
is closest to the stick corresponds to Solar Noon.  The direction of the
closest pebble points to Solar North.  Also handy if you're lost in the desert.

Or you could ask at an airport, find a map or do any of the other hi-tech stuff
that has been suggested.

Enjoy!


From Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:15 EDT 1994
Article: 1323 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Lou.Schneider
From: Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: computer conversion
Message-ID: <175_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 00:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 21
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Elvis Hargrove
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> CHEAP AND DIRTY- 2 car batteries for +/- 12 volts and fed from
-> those a big heatsinked(sp?) 5 amp pos regulator and a small 1 amp

> dropping the full 6-7 volts across a three terminal regulator will
> drive it into thermal shutdown almost immediately.

It's also inefficient as hell.  A three terminal regulator functions as a
variable resistor - current in equals current out, so whatever voltage you
waste across it is wasted power (it gets hot).  If you drop 12 volts to 6 volts
you've wasted half your energy.

The simplest and probably most energy efficient solution to powering a computer
from 12 VDC is to get an appropriately sized inverter and plug the computer's
power cord into the inverter's 120 VAC socket.  Modern inverters operate with
over 95% efficiency, so you're not losing much in the conversion.  The
computer's power supply converts 120 VAC to the various voltages the computer
needs at about the same efficiency.  More importantly, the stock supply
contains all of the voltage regulation and voltage and current limits needed to
protect the computer's circuity.

Enjoy!


From John.Taylor@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1324 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!John.Taylor
From: John.Taylor@psybbs.durham.nc.us (John Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Subscribe
Message-ID: <176_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 01:55:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: taylor12@llnl.gov (John Taylor)
Date: 12 Aug 94 16:09:56 GMT
subscribe renew-energy


From Richard.Boyd@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1325 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Richard.Boyd
From: Richard.Boyd@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Richard Boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: California regulatory act
Message-ID: <177_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 01:55:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-470
Lines: 35
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rabii@netcom.com (Richard Boyd)
Date: 12 Aug 94 18:52:20 GMT


A few weeks back I posted a note stating where information regarding
California's ZEV, ULEV, and LEV requirements can be obtained.  That post has
resulted in many request for information sources about all environmental
regulatory activity, not just air pollution.  Therefore, I am making a public
offer which I hope some of you might find useful.

The California Environmental Protection Agency (Cal/EPA) publishes a monthly
report which summarizes the activity of all environmental regulatory bodies in
the state (including those of some local districts).  If you want to be put on
the mailing list for this publication, you have three choices:

  1.  E-Mail me your name and mailing address, and I will put you on the list.
  2.  Fax your request for addition to the list to (916) 445-5563
  3.  Write to:

                Cal/EPA
                555 Capitol Mall, Suite 235
                Sacramento, CA  95814


Take your pick!  Feel free to circulate this message to anyone who you think
might be interested.

Thanks -


--
****************************
***  Richard Boyd        ***
***  (rabii@netcom.com)  ***
****************************


From Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1326 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Harry.H.Conover
From: Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: no opposing viewpoin
Message-ID: <178_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 01:55:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:The Internet Access Company
Lines: 119
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover) Date: 12 Aug 94 19:33:14 GMT

Pete Bergstrom (bergstro@src.honeywell.com) wrote:

[snip, snip, for brevity]

: Whether or not Don zaps the gateway today, he'd have absolutely no : control
over the Usenet newsgroup. It would continue on and probably : have about the
same traffic as it does now.

: > Fidonet and Usenet seemingly operate under somewhat different rules
: > of order.

: Absolutely right.

: Pete

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete, you're absolutely right.

However....

When the original Fidonet group linked with Usenet, it was probably to make the
group accessible to a much wider audience, by taking advantage of the broader
communications capabilities offered by Internet.  I doubt if much advance
thought was given to the open nature of an unmoderated, alternative hierarchy
Usenet newsgroup.

(The following is not intended to be either a flame or a put-down, rather, a
recap of my observations and impressions.)

The original Fidonet group consisted (and probably still does) largely of
autonomous home energy enthusiasts that as a group seem to hold, at least when
viewed by Usenet criteria, somewhat parochial or provincial attitudes,
knowledge and viewpoints.

Rather than attempting to understand and benefit from the broad wealth of
technical insight available via Usenet postings, participants tend to reject
and flame any ideas presented that deviate from their 'group think.'  Reactions
observed are analogous to those received when scientific and technical people
attempt to engage in discussions within paranormal, occult, UFO, or New Age
type groups.

Evidently, belief structures of the 'true believers' are almost always regarded
as sacred, and any challenge to these beliefs is perceived as blasphemy. It
seems strange to find this attitude in a group having a quasi-technical
orientation, but when viewed from my perspective, it exists here.

Roughly a month ago, I had the audacity to suggest that nuclear power provide
the centralized energy source required for millions of electric or Hydrogen
fueled automobiles.  One posting only!  Almost immediately, I received a note
from Don Kuhla requesting that I refrain from posting my opinions on nuclear in
alt.energy.renewable, and stating that "We" have already determined that
(omitting his hyperbole) this is not a viable alternative. Regardless of my
disagreement with Don's viewpoint, I have complied with his request.  Flames
responding to that singular post continue to appear through today, ironically
many complaining about having to wade through all the pro-nuke propaganda that
has recently been posted in the newsgroup!

Other posts offering factual technical information (unrelated to nuclear power
issues) or attempting to correct posted scientific or technical misinformation
have been either been flamed, criticized, or received a luke-warm reception. 
Fortunately, non has received the emotional, knee-jerk flame response that  my
nuclear post did, but I understand this.   Anti-nuclear, like anti-smoking,
anti-gun, and Creationism are religious beliefs to some and as such, are not
open to discussion or debate.

But...

Group participants do have every right to *request* that certain subject matter
or opinions not be posted, however, within the unmoderated Usenet alternative
hierarchy structure, none have the right to demand this, nor the power to
impose this will on others.  Most reasonable people will, however, comply with
such a request if they deem it appropriate and understand the underlying
reasons. I have done so.

If voluntary compliance is insufficient, the group could, I suspect, changed to
a moderated group, where only those postings specifically approved by the
newsgroup Moderators appear. Unfortunately, this places an enormous burden on
the Moderators, and postings are usually delayed a substantial period of time,
making active debate and discussion difficult.

Naturally, another option is severing  the link with Fidonet, however, to me
this seems to be 'throwing out the baby with the bath water.'  Fido members
would appear the net losers in such a move, while Internet  readers and posters
would likely remain relatively unaffected.

Still, I fail to understand the necessity for any of this. As a quasi-technical
newsgroup, there should exist no need to protect readers from dissenting
viewpoints or off-topic postings, as must be done in, lets say, a mental health
support or recovery group.  Postings of a technical nature and the statement of
a personal opinion should not trigger an adverse psychological or physical
reaction in normal humans, hence, these is no compelling need to protect anyone
from such posts.

If someone does not agree with a post, they can simply skip or ignore it. 
Here, resource expenditure is minimal. Usenet readers have the option of using
a Kill File as well, gives them the ability to effectively disappear all
postings from selected individuals or subjects.  I don't know if this
capability exists on Fidonet or not, however, likely an equivalent capability
is likely present.  Unfortunately, many prefer to rant and flame, rather than
to simply ignore something.  In this respect, the Fidonet people don't differ
from Usenet participants.

All in all, its like the man said: "If you want to play in the big leagues, you
better learn hardball."  As applied to Internet and Usenet, this translates to
learning tolerance and respect for others.  Even if you have no respect for a
person's opinion, you *must* respect his/her right to hold an opinion.  If you
find this impossible, you are in the wrong place.

Kindest regards...

                                           Harry C.


PS.  Yes, I know that I have flamed on occasion.
        We're all human!  (Whoops, that would be
        considered a flame in 'alt.aliens'...)


From Helen.W_.St_.Cyr@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1327 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Helen.W_.St_.Cyr
From: Helen.W_.St_.Cyr@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Helen W. St. Cyr)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: subscribe
Message-ID: <179_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 01:55:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Usenet:renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: 5889ww@svpal.org (Helen W. St. Cyr) Date: 12 Aug 94 21:26:32 GMT On Fri,
12 Aug 1994, John Taylor wrote:

> subscribe renew-energy
>
>


From David.Dutton@p69.f88.n119.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1328 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n119!f88!p69!David.Dutton
From: David.Dutton@p69.f88.n119.z1.fidonet.org (David Dutton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Snatching induction from
Message-ID: <17a_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 04:18:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Athenon 916-343-7866 28.8K 1.5GB 3Lines
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Brian Proud
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (16 Aug 94) Brian Proud wrote to Tim Mullen...

 BP> Hi Tim,

 TM>    I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
 TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
 TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out?

 BP> Yep, that and also to keep my kids from sticking just about everything
they BP> can think of in them.

 Heheheh my parents never did that, and I DID stick my fingers into
 elec. outlets and got shocked MANY MANY times... but wall outlet
 will only kill if in the right circumstances.. 1) You are grounded,
 2) standing in conductive liquid (water, etc), or 3) let it pass across
 your cheast (heart)...  LUCKLY for me I used to stick my right hand thumb
 and index finger... so the electricity never left my hand... and
 conditions 1 & 2 were not present... I really think those plastic protectors
 ARE a good idea... I was LUCKY... other children may not be.


From Anthony.Ehrsam@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1329 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n2250!f21!Anthony.Ehrsam
From: Anthony.Ehrsam@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Anthony Ehrsam)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: New carrier
Message-ID: <17b_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 07:29:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 5
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just wanted to say Hi, from a new carrier..... Anthony Ehrsam

         BARTER TOWN BBS * SYSOP:FESTUS * DENTON,TX. * 817-566-0245
              300-14.400 BAUD ACCESS ** 24 HRS. ** VBBS v.6.12
         VirtualNET @1817010 * TriangleNET @1817101 * FILES * GAMES


From Chris.Weatherwax@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1330 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n2250!f21!Chris.Weatherwax
From: Chris.Weatherwax@f21.n2250.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Weatherwax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: More power...
Message-ID: <17c_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 07:29:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Dark Star VI FIDOnet <-> VirtualNET Gateway
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 


     I think that solar power is the best energy source in the long run.
Hydroelectric is good, too, but then all those phriggin' redskins and
enviro-freaks are complaining about the salmon runoffs... WHO CARES?!? I, for
one, don't really like fish, and even though they are a part of the ecosystem,
they ain't THAT big a part... BUT, with all these liberalized politicians and
news media, it looks like hydroelectric is going to the dung heap...
     As for waste-energy? Screw waste-energy, try concentrating on
waste-nothing!!! Those phriggin' W-E plants barely produce crap for energy, and
they spend all that money on it!!! They could build a solar plant that produces
10 times more energy for less than the W-E plant...
     Then there's wind power. Good for midwestern states, but not that good for
WA and ID... Not enough wind!
     Then there's nuclear. Nuclear would be VERY cool if we could find a good
way to get rid of the waste... As for all these meltdowns? Those are caused
because they are run by a bunch of Homers that know JACK $#!% about Nuclear
Physics... And as for Chernobyl? Russians. What more need be said?
     Just a little friendly info. from your friendly friend,
                                                       -Kreiger


From Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1331 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n3625!f470!Rick.Munday
From: Rick.Munday@f470.n3625.z1.fidonet.org (Rick Munday)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Sources for solar cells &
Message-ID: <17d_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 19:32:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (205) 661-8945
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 


      While moving through Cyberspace Ian Woofenden was heard to say:

 IW> Get a subscription, or at least a sample issue, of _Home Power_
 IW> magazine.

 IW> Home Power Magazine
 IW> PO Box 520
 IW> Ashland, OR 97520

 IW> subs & back issues 916-475-0830

 IW> $15 per year. $20 international surface.

[address left for others]

Ian,

Thanks for the reply!  I'll check it out as soon as I get to town to get a
copy.

TTFN,

Rick



~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 <NR>

... No matter where you go . . . there you are. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1332 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n351!f299!p2!Brian.Proud
From: Brian.Proud@p2.f299.n351.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Proud)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Refrigerators - chest sty
Message-ID: <17e_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 21 Aug 94 21:09:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Here There Be Dragons... (OS/2 2.11)
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Ian,

 IW> When *I* think of matching units in refrigeration, my biggest
 IW> concern is whether the front of my Sunfrost refer matches the rest
 IW> of my kitchen <bg>.

Sunfrost.  Those are supposed to be pretty good fridges.  What do you think of
yours???  We just might be moving to a location where electric is quite
expensive so a good low-energy fridge would be important.

 Brian


From Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1333 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n153!f9115!Jim.Fitzsimmons
From: Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fitzsimmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: rv solar
Message-ID: <17f_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 22 Aug 94 00:56:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Blue Moon BBS (Zulu Hours Only)
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cyburg
Status: O
X-Status: 


 C> Has any one set up a solar systems for off grid or RVs.

 C> hi I am Cynthia and I  live off-grid.  We power our home/office form pvs.
 C> It is also our business. (Offline Independent Energy Systems).  We are
 C> very experienced in this matter.  We have been designing and installing
 C> independent power systems, both large and small, for over 11 years.  I
 C> enjoy sharing our experince with others.  We also have mail order
 C> customers all over the country.  The energy efficient life style is very
 C> satisfying.  If you have questions please let me answer them for you.
 C> Cynthia Loweburg
 Hello Cynthia,
 Well I would like to be in a similar situation at some point of time in my
life.Just how many Solar Panels would a person require for an RV that was fully
equiped with Fridge/stove etc.. What or how many Deep cycle batteries and also
I recall that a regulating system is required.Can you get alittle specific
about items ie:mfg's,cost.?Thanks.I look forward to your reply.ttul..


From gnudd@bga.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1334 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!edwin-b6.ip.realtime.net!user
From: gnudd@bga.com (Greg Nudd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Date: 27 Aug 1994 17:26:42 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <gnudd-2708941227190001@edwin-b6.ip.realtime.net>
References: <12e_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: edwin-b6.ip.realtime.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

> I don't like the smell or racket of diesels either, and they always
> *sound* like they are going to break down any minute.
> 
> Now let's see if I can steer this on-topic...
> 
> We're not going to get 100% renewable anytime in the near future,
> but I think for the things we can't use renewables for, we should
> certainly think about what is the most benign. Diesels are loved by
> their fans for their thriftiness and reliability, two fine
> qualities. I just wonder if there are ways to accomplish the same
> goals without the pollutants, smell, and noise levels.
> 

I like natural gas myself. You've got to have the infrastructure for it,
though. "Clean" liquid fuels include LPG and propane. The smaller the
molecules, the better the emissions.

-- 
Greg Nudd

gnudd@bga.com
finger for PGP public key
WWW home page: http://www.realtime.net/~gnudd/


From cyburg@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1335 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: computer conversion
Date: 27 Aug 1994 16:39:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33o897$dr5@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <175_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <175_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Lou.Schneider@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lou Schneider) writes:

"The simplest ...........is to use properly sized inverter"

I use a small 250 watt inverter to power my computer.  The rest of our
house runs on a large Trace 2500 watt (the non-sine wave).  We have no
problems.  The small inverter runs the telecommunications also no problem.
Other small sine-way inverters are available but more expensive. (Exeltech
Sine Way inverters)  The new Trace 4000 watt sine wave is 95% efficient. 
Will run your laser printer too.

Cynthia


From cyburg@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1336 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Ice house
Date: 27 Aug 1994 16:45:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33o8ke$du2@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <15f_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <15f_9408271046@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn) writes:

"why not wire the house for Dc also'

Our home is wired for both.  But we did our own wiring so we didn't have
the added labor cost.  Our lighting circuits are DC as well as the circuit
for the blessed Sun Frost. (my most prized possesion).  It makes sense
that if something should happen to your inverter, which it most likely
won't, that you still have lights and your food won't spoil.
However pay attention to WIRE SIZE and voltage drop.  

Cynthia


From jbvb@elf.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1337 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!news2.near.net!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power Question (towers)
Date: 27 Aug 1994 23:43:33 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <33oj35$ln7@usenet.elf.com>
References: <12c_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

MShadowfax@psybbs.durham.nc.us (MShadowfax) writes:

....earlier description of 4-guy tilt-up tower w/gin pole ommitted...

>     This is about how I thought it would go. Someone has also proposed
>the use of ham-radio tower components. They described them as cheap
>($30-40 for ten foot sections) and very durable with high load capacities
>and guy-less installations to 100'+ (I only need maybe 30-40' if that).

Wind generators have to exert a good deal of side-load on a tower, or
else they wouldn't generate any power.  Radio antennas are mostly
designed not to create any unnecessary drag.  Your wind genny
manufacturer should have the side load specs in their literature,
compare with what the manufacturer says.

Reagarding 30-40' tower height - Mick Sagrillo's articles in HP say
over & over "don't use too short a tower".  He presents rigorous
aerodynamic arguments for throwing the weight of your $$ and effort
towards a taller tower, rather than a bigger generator.  As a rule of
thumb, 50-60' is a practical minimum for prairie country, because
there's bound to be a few buildings and trees/shrubs close enough to
affect the power output (Mick says turbulence extends twice the
obstacle's height above ground, and trails 10 times the obstacle's
height downwind).  Of course, if you're *really* sure of your
prevailing wind, this may not apply...
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1338 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Message-ID: <185_9408271713@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 26 Aug 94 02:41:22 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: DaveHatunen
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave, the natural disaster scenario usually works to the advantage of the
alternative energy systems; f'rinstance our earthquakes, those of us off the
grid had power, those relying on Pacific Graft and Extortion (just kidding,
they're pretty good folks) were S.O.L. - sure outa luck -  There's no question
the cost is higher, for the first ten years or so, but many many systems have
been built with a 6 year payback and are now running free; and that includes
paying for the solar contractor who installed it.


From Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Aug 28 21:42:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1339 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Malcolm.Stebbins
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Malcolm Stebbins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: offtopic?
Message-ID: <186_9408271713@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 26 Aug 94 02:55:14 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods * Redwood Network *
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 

Actually this is to Don K. but I'm still learning this BB stuff; Don; I know
you need limits to keep this thing reasonable, but those of us into backyard
recycling, do it yrself alternative energy are gonna get off on every wierd and
wonderful device and technique that comes along: take the guy that mentioned
using a heater's pilot detector as an E.G.T. - that is slick, and who knows
when someone will use it to sense alt n.r.g?  I feel that using our older
vehicles is becoming alternative energy in CA at least, and efficient use of
the resource is sure plart of the game:  hey, pollution pollsmooshion, the CO2
is gonna get us as long as we keep burning ANYTHING! and its going up at the
worst predicted rate.  Asa someone said, the experiment seems tro have already
begun for the greenhouse effect.


From Anff@qvwp.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 28 21:42:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1340 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
From: Anff@qvwp.demon.co.uk (Anthony)
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!demon!qvwp.demon.co.uk!Anff
Subject: Re: NOT theft
References: <d0e_9408160451@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: A H Worth & Co Ltd
Reply-To: Anff@qvwp.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.27
Lines: 20
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 23:49:16 +0000
Message-ID: <778031356snz@qvwp.demon.co.uk>
Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi there,

I just thought I'd pop in and see whats happening in this group
and lo and behold someone appears to have the same idea as me.
I was inspired by the same idea that I could tap into field around
a mains supply. I started by talking to a graduate at our local
University where by I learnt that I would be taking power by increasing
their loss etc. Fine thats what I'd presumed, it could not be free
as the utilities would be drawing on it themselves! I concluded happily
that I could of got power for free and my device would work but it
would be dangerous and stealing and really not worth the risk. I'll
keep looking and hoping that with all the power pumped into the air
nowadays there must be something there to soak up?!

-- 
Cheers
Anff

--Anthony Sumner -- Mail Anff@qvwp.demon.co.uk
"Knowledge is useless unless it's shared"


From mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1341 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com (Mike Fisher)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 28 Aug 1994 02:26:18 -0000
Organization: Merlin's Realm BBS (719)-481-9881
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <940827200412560@merlins-realm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


unsubscribe renew-energy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From hatunen@netcom.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1342 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!hatunen
From: hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <hatunenCv8CuM.HD1@netcom.com>
Organization: As little as you're likely to find anywhere
References: <1b5_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 05:35:09 GMT
Lines: 42
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <1b5_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Tony Weeks <Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>On (24 Aug 94) Will Firstbrook wrote to All...

[...]

> WF> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
> WF> of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
> WF> inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
> WF> with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat
> WF> next winter. Has anyone tried this?
>
>        My father mentioned that he saw something like the during used
>        during the great depression.  I doubt it if the ice would last
>        more than half way through summer unless you live in cold
>        country and could get 4+ foot layer of ice on the bottom of your
>        pit.

Ice houses were once a common feature of the more northerly parts of
America, and, of course, Canada. Basically, ice is cut form the nearest
body of freshwater when it freezes over, and teh blocks are put into a
building and covered with sawdust, which serves as a pretty good
insulator. This is done until the ice is stacked maybe ten feet tall.
It will remain frozen well into the next autumn. But there's now way it
will be cold enough to work as a deep freeze. In fact, it doesn't take
too long for the entire stored mass to come up to about the freezing
point. Generally the ice was used in iceboxes.

My uncle lived in Upper Michigan, and used to take me to the local ice
house with him; it was a cooperative venture by his small community. In
some parts of the country they were commercial; so commercial that some
companies on the Eastern Seaboard exported ice to more tropically
located countries.

The coming of inexpensive mechanical refrigeration pretty well
eliminated the need for ice houses.

-- 


    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *                Daly City California:                *
    *       where San Francisco meets The Peninsula       *
    *       and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea       *
    *******************************************************



From Larry.Gowdy@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1343 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n352!f111!Larry.Gowdy
From: Larry.Gowdy@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Larry Gowdy)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <17b_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 21:09:16 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA  USA<--
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 


 DH> My dad has been howling all week that we need a "jack pump" for our
 DH> well.   He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to
 DH> draw up 10+  gallons/min from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure. 
 DH> Does anyone have  any experience with these things?  I'm not even sure
 DH> I know what one is.  A  12/24 volt pump would be great (I've just about
 DH> had it with carting the  generator to the pumphouse every morning!). 

        I'm not sure what a 'jack pump' is, but using any small motor to
 rise and lower a submersed valve like what's used on windmills would
 work just fine. I'd speculate that gallons per minute would mainly
 depend on what amperage motor you used. A typical auto fan motor would
 work if geared properly, but at no more than several gallons an hour. A
 starter motor could probably pump out 20+ gpm, but it'd sure use a lot
 of amps.
        I've used several types of electric pumps, and none of them
 would suck water up more than 25 feet. You will need to do some sort of
 extra hardware down to the bottom of the well. Hope this will give you
 some ideas to work with.


... Catch the Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1344 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f525!p3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <193_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 03:03:36 GMT
Organization: [Fido] A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 75
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Will Firstbrook
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (24 Aug 94) Will Firstbrook wrote to All...

 WF> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre
 WF> lot on the side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way
 WF> he will be on the "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house
 WF> for 120v and will be getting some solar panels. 

 WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

Careful. This is a religious question <g>. 

My view of the situation is that in the early years of AE, people
tended to go 12 volts DC. More recently, people are leaning toward
AC, since the inverters are so efficient and reliable these days.

I can certainly see the appeal of going all AC. Everything is easily
available, and you don't have to retrofit anything or use anything
unconventional.

For me, the drawbacks are twofold. One is that you are *relying* on
one piece of electronic equipment, without which your system won't
be worth spit. If I was going all AC, I would get two Trace
inverters. Then you could stack them for super loads, and have a
backup in case anything went wrong. The other drawback is that in
some loads the DC equivalent can (as I understand it) be more
efficient than conventional AC stuff. Ooops, here's a third. Though
the inverters are super efficient, their efficiency is best in the
mid to upper ranges of their capacity, I think. If you have it fired
up at night for a night-light, or all the time for an answering
machine or something, you are going to lose some (significant?)
power in the transfer.

We wired for three voltages, so I know how complicated *that* can
be. We are primarily a 24 volt DC system, since we have relatively
long wire runs, shop motors, fridge and lots of lights. I'm a
definite proponent of using 24 volts. Lower line loss, smaller wire.
We generate in 24 volts, so there is no conversion loss there. We
also do tap 12 volts off for stuff that is tough to get in 24 volts.
Mostly little stuff like electronics. And we do have an inverter,
though it is generally used for relatively short periods of time.

My feeling is that even with the efficiency of today's inverters,
you do lose something in every conversion. If I had lots of extra
power, I wouldn't worry about it. But we don't. 

So there's some perspective for you. Hope it's of use.

 WF> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in
 WF> the side of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the
 WF> winter spray water inside and build up a large layer of ice.
 WF> Once complete cover the ice with sawdust. Close the door and
 WF> use all winter and summer. Repeat next winter. Has anyone
 WF> tried this?

Not me. Sounds like an interesting idea. My grandfather used to have
an ice house at his place in Maine. I loved it.

The drawback to your friend's idea is that the earth stays a
relatively constant temperature after you get down to a certain
depth. I don't remember the number, but it's considerably above
freezing - something like 48  F I'm guessing. So he would have to
insulate the earth first so that it wouldn't melt the ice, I would
think.

It's worth a try, if nothing else. Would make a dandy root cellar if
not a freezer. A MOL related idea is to make a double-jacketed
fridge and run your cold water supply through it. And of course,
many folks in northern climes keep their freezer outside and just
turn it off in the winter.

Ian



... Hockey Players are protesting the excessive violence in figure skating


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:49 EDT 1994
Article: 1345 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n369!f3!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane diges
Message-ID: <19e_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 17:28:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Davis
Status: O
X-Status: 

MD>-> AD>I'm looking for source material on self-build methane digesters, t
MD>-> AD>the waste from a herd of 100 dairy cows.

Back to this topic, I did not see the original post. Has anyone told AD
whomever that is that their is <or was> a file available that gave the
info needed. If someone still has the file that was a group of posts<a
couple of years ago> made by me on this echo it would save haveing to go
back and reposting these posts <actually recomposing from my research
materials here>. It even gave details on the constuction of the
digestors if I remember correctly.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Women, can't live with'em... end of story. <Bundy,Al>


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1346 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n369!f3!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Cow slurry methane digest
Message-ID: <19f_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 17:40:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Michael Davis
Status: O
X-Status: 

MD>Go to the library and look for The Mother Earth News magazine. It had
MD>not only some articles but also plans for different digesters. There is
MD>also a couple of old MEN books with the plans in them.
MD>(No you may not have purchase or borrow mine)

A very good source, one of the places I started my search for info. Also
if available copies of Ram Bux Singh <will need to be interpreted if no
english versions are available, they weren't when I started my search
for info> work in India. Also a fellow from Africa <I think his name was
Fry> had a great deal to say on the topic but I am not sure he ever
published a book. From there I went out to the field and observed
generators in use and being built to "finish" the education on methane
<or as the Indians call it- Gobar Gas> Where was the orriginal post
from? If not too far away I would apprecieate the honor of observing the
construction of the digester. Might even be willing to assist if needed.

MD>You will find articles about digesters built in India and China. I
MD>really like the one designed in China, made of concrete and built
MD>underground.

There was a flury of articles recently <within the last 10 years> about
the "gas bag" farm vehilcles of the Chinesse areas.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * Some dance to remember, some dance to forget!


From Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1347 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n369!f3!Dave.Paxton
From: Dave.Paxton@f3.n369.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: METHANE DIGESTER/ ELECTRI
Message-ID: <1a0_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 17:56:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Daybreak Mail System - *V32/28.8* -  305-452-5227
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

JD> Dave Paxton is our resident expert on digesters. Although I never built one

Uhow, he called me an expert. If you disect that word an ex is a hasbeen
and a spurt is a drip. Whats he trying to say anyway? Not an expert,
just knowledgable.

JD>Having the input stock that you're describing makes a digester setup
JD>economically feasable. It also usually eases the effort required to handle a
JD>that manure.

VERY economically feasable. Even the farm equipment can be converted to
run on methane thus cutting down on the expenses of running the farm.

JD>Good luck and keep us posted!!

Where are you located. The climate might have some bearing on how to
construct your digester.

Does anyone have a copy of the old file of posts on this echo left
arround? If nowhere else John Mudge should probably have it as a
freqable on Point Mudge.

Big Dave

 * SLMR 2.1a * We are all prisoners of our own device!


From Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org Sun Aug 28 21:42:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1348 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n346!f35!Gary.Pagac
From: Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Pagac)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <1cb_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 03:59:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Moonflower
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 


 On 08-25-94 Tony Weeks wrote to Will Firstbrook... 
 TW>  
 TW>         I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd 
 TW>         be no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a  
 TW>         120 volt circuit. 
 
  I wouldn't do that for safety purposes.  Those plugs and jacks are  
intended for low current audio, and would not last long for many 
12 volt applications.  When voltage drops (from 120v to 12v) it requires 
more amps to do the same job.  So to operate that 75 watt light at 12v 
requires much more amps than would its counterpart at 120v.  Amps equal 
heat.  That is OHMS Law -- it's a series of extremely simple multiplication 
and division formulas, three of them will tell you all you want to know. 
I'd use some plugs and jacks more intended for the job -- go to a Trailer 
Supply House and get the right stuff. 
 
 
___ 
 * OFFLINE 1.56 * SpokAne, The Apple Maggot Quarantine Area! 


From conover@max.tiac.net Sun Aug 28 21:42:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1349 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 28 Aug 1994 17:58:24 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <33qj80$evr@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <1b5_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tony Weeks (Tony.Weeks@p357.f40.n105.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: On (24 Aug 94) Will Firstbrook wrote to All...

:  WF> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
:  WF> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
:  WF> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
:  WF> getting some solar panels. 
:  WF> 
:  WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

:         I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd be
:         no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a 120 volt
:         circuit.


Tony, I think phone jacks and plugs would have serious problems when
used as 12-volt power connectors.  First, they are not designed to handle
any significant current flow, most making a rather low-area, low-pressure
contact with the plug that frequently provides only a relatively high
resistance connection.  Also, they have a tendency to produce momentary
short circuits while being connected and disconnected that, while not
a problem with low powered audio, could produce a spark and fire 
hazard if used with a high current audio source.

I'd suggest use of something like 'Jones Plugs' (widely used for 
power connections in ham rigs) as an alternative to normal 110-volt
connectors.

                                         Harry C.




From conover@max.tiac.net Sun Aug 28 21:42:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1350 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 28 Aug 1994 18:11:33 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <33qk0l$evr@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <1b5_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <33qj80$evr@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

: Also, they have a tendency to produce momentary
: short circuits while being connected and disconnected that, while not
: a problem with low powered audio, could produce a spark and fire 
: hazard if used with a high current audio source.


Whoops....  That last line should have been:

    ....hazard if used with a high current power source.



The low-level electromagnetic fields from my computers, combined with
the Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Neutron flux emitted by my RONCO Home
Nuclear Power System must be affecting my brain cells.    



From ofln@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1351 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ofln@aol.com (OFLN)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: pv workshop
Date: 28 Aug 1994 14:34:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33qlav$sth@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <3a6_9407072200@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

:
Hi
Offline is having an inexpensive one day workshop on the basics of
residential photovotaics on Sunday Oct 2nd  at Sun Mt. near Fresno,
California. If interested and you want more details please e-mail Offline
at <ofln@aol.com> or write:

Offline Independent Energy Systems
PO Box 231
North Fork, CA  93643
209-877-7080



From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 21:42:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1352 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Date: 28 Aug 1994 20:09:40 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 39
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408281953.NAA15644@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

Forwarded message:
>From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Sun Aug 28 13:52:26 1994
From: "Eric F. Richards" <efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-Id: <199408281952.NAA15632@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
To: Larry.Gowdy@f111.n352.z1.fidonet.org (Larry Gowdy)
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 13:52:22 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
In-Reply-To: <17b_9408281030@psybbs.durham.nc.us> from "Larry Gowdy" at Aug 25, 94 09:09:16 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1152      

>  DH> My dad has been howling all week that we need a "jack pump" for our
>  DH> well.   He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to
>  DH> draw up 10+  gallons/min from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure. 
>  DH> Does anyone have  any experience with these things?  I'm not even sure
>  DH> I know what one is.  A  12/24 volt pump would be great (I've just about
>  DH> had it with carting the  generator to the pumphouse every morning!). 
> 
>         I'm not sure what a 'jack pump' is, but using any small motor to
>  rise and lower a submersed valve like what's used on windmills would
>  work just fine. I'd speculate that gallons per minute would mainly

I was gonna shut up and let an expert take this, but having seen none,
I'll open my mouth (to put my foot in it).

If I understand correctly, a jack pump is exactly what was described
above -- a motor driving a reciprocating shaft with a valve assembly
at the end of it, in the bottom of the well.  Ever seen the pumps used
at an oil field?  Same beast.  (Info derived from 1993 Sunelco catalog,
pp. 86-87).

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu




From conover@max.tiac.net Sun Aug 28 21:42:58 EDT 1994
Article: 1353 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Date: 28 Aug 1994 21:36:23 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <33r00n$jq3@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <11f_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Arlo Hagler (Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
: I agree w/you on the need for open info exchange. That's why i got a modem,
: after all. The fact remains that the title is "HOME Power", read, alternative,
: energy. Nuclear doesn't qualify as alternative or renewable and so doesn't
: belong here. No religious fervor in that, just the facts. Otherwise, i, for
: one, welcome your input.

For Internnet Usenet readers, the name of this newsgroup is 
alt.energy.renewable, not "Home Power".  (Just to keep the record
straight.)   Unfortunately, as no FAQ as yet exists for this group, 
its scope is a wee bit on the gray side to us Internet guys.

The term 'Alternative' is, in itself, suggests different things to different
people.  To some, alternative energy means 'home grown' sources of
energy independent of the energy company suppliers.  To others, it
is energy sources differing from the historic mainstream (hydro, fossil
fuels, etc.).

Renewable energy is less vague a term, but strictly speaking precludes
discussion of products stemming from fossil energy sources, including
propane, butane, natural gas, and conventionally generated hyrdogen.

Based on the apparent interest and goals of most of most postings,
the group name alt.energy.renewable is an unfortunate selection. 
Here, 'alt' refers to the 'alternative Usenet hierarchy' and not to 
'alternative energy'.  As a result, millions of Internet readers receive
no clue as to this group's primary focus.  'Alt.renewable.home.power' 
would seem a more appropriate newsgroup name.

Discussions should then be limited to wind, solar, hydro, and crop/manure
based systems, specifically excluding all discussion of fossil based fuels
(propane, butane, etc.), nuclear, and grid-energy derived hydrogen fuels and
EVs.  If discussion of any of these is to be encouraged, the term 'renewable'
should be deleted from the newsgroup name.

Personally, I'd like to see more discussion focused on the environmental,
health, and safety issues connected with Home Energy production.  For 
example, the bird kill associated with wind turbines is of increasing 
public concern, and the air pollution associated with wood burning has 
already resulted in it being prohibited in a number of populated 
communities.  With home generated electricity, everyone is talking
about selling power back to the utilities, but few are serious 
in addressing the practical problems that this involves, particularly 
when it comes down to safety issues associated with power line back-feed. 
Also, the literally explosive potential of home energy storage systems seem 
to go unoticed by most.  (For example, how many home users know how to 
adequately fuse, vent, and barracade a large storage battery array so 
that when a short occurs, it doesn't blow the back of the house off!)

Similarly, construction of towers, dams, and even passive PV arrays
create both safety and environmental hazards that need to be responsibly
and competently addressed, otherwise government will step in and regulate
it for us.

                                       Harry C.







From cyburg@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:43:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1354 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: RV Solar
Date: 28 Aug 1994 18:57:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33r4o0$5a3@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <7f7_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <7f7_9408162211@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Jim.Fitzsimmons@f9115.n153.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Fitzsimmons) writes: "How
many panels would be needed to set up an RV?"
In my opinion youshould use LP for your  fridge and your stove.  PV is
very expensive and refrigeration is a very bigh load.  There are good
efficeint DC refrigerators (12v for your Rv) on the market.  Nova Kool and
Sun Frost to mention two.  We use a Sun Frost in our home.  But to keep
costs down for your Rv use propane.  And no electric stoves.  Take way too
much power.
A fully powered top of the line type RV with lights, TV, small microwave,
and various other small AC aplliances such as a blender.  A 200watt array,
(i.e. four 50w modules), four 220 ah batteries, 1500w inverter ( to run
small microwave and other AC appliances).  Also a 20 amp charge
controller.  This system would cost under $3000 nad would be suitable for
daily use.  System sizing always depends on how many watt-hours per day is
needed and in your case I don't know.  Peple can always get along with
less if they want.  Less power, less cost.
If you would like a catalog e-mail me your address and I will send you
one.

Cynthia




From rarnold@teleport.com Sun Aug 28 21:43:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1355 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!news.teleport.com!usenet
From: <rarnold@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: will this work???
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 94 15:25:25 PST
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <67213.rarnold@teleport.com>
Reply-To: <rarnold@teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-c06.teleport.com
X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_15
X-POPMail-Charset: English
Status: O
X-Status: 

I came across a photocopy from a kid's science or electricity
experiment book (sorry, didn't write down reference).  It looks
fascinating!!!   Do you believe it will work?  Is there an
acceptable (But cheaper) substitute for the graphite?  Where
might I find directions to make a fuel cell powered by alcohol?

| THE FUEL CELL
|    
|     What is a fuel cell?  It is an electrochemical device for 
| converting the chemical energy in fuels directly into 
| electricity.
|
|     Why is it of high interest to scientists today?  Because it 
| can operate with two or three times the efficiency of other
| fuel-burning power producers.  Thus, the fuel cell, although
| not an energy source in itself, could help make our present fuel
| supply last years longer than expected.
|
|     Many scientists see the fuel cell playing a major role someday 
| in providing electricity for automobiles and homes.  Even now, 
| fuel-cell systems are being developed for use as power plants for
| shopping centers and similar sites.  Small systems have already
| been used successfully in spacecraft.
|
|     In many ways, the fuel cell is like a battery.  It contains no 
| moving parts, is quiet, and wastes no energy as heat.  Furthermore,
| it gives off no fumes.  And, like a battery, it has electrodes and
| an electrolyte.
|
|     But unlike a battery, the fuel cell will continue to produce 
| electricity as long as an oxidant, such as air or oxygen, can be 
| fed to the electrodes.  In most batteries, one of the electrodes
| serves as the fuel and is used up during operation, only the fuel
| cell's electrodes are never used up.  Only the fuel.
|
|     There are several types of fuel cells.  Some use hydrogen as
| fuel.  Others use ammonia, alcohol or various hydrocarbon fuels.
| But even though they may work differently, all of them acchieve
| the same result: They produce electricity directly from fuels in 
| an efficient manner.
|
|     Unfortunately, however, scientists have to solve some serious
| problems before fuel cells can help ease our energy crisis.  Two of
| these are the high cost and the short lifetime of the fuel cell.
|
| EXPERIMENT 9: Making a "Fuel Cell"
|
| THINGS NEEDE: A nonmetallic mesh tube, such as a woman's plastic
| hair roller, measuring about 3" long by 1" in diameter. 3 small
| rubber bands or some string. Thin sheet of zinc or galvanized 
| steel 3+1/2" by 2".  A large gauze pad (see Text).  A tablespoon or
| so of natural powdered graphite (One tube of powdered graphite
| lubricant should do the trick).  Flour.  Salt.  2 small bowls.
| 
|      Making a fuel cell would be easy if we had the right materials.
| Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
| to get in small quantities.  So let's take an easier path.  Let's
| build a device that is considered to be a type of fuel cell.  
| It uses zinc as the fuel (one electrode), air as the oxidant (the
| other electrode) and saltwater as the electrolyte.
|
|     First, pour all the graphite into a bowl.  Next, in a seperate
| bowl, prepare a binder of 1 part flour and 4 parts water.  Then add 
| the binder to the graphite, a little at a time, and stir.  What we
| want to do is to end up with a thick paste, like peanut butter.
|
|     Now from the gauze pad cut two strips as wide as the mesh tube
| (hair roller) and about 7" long.  If you don't have gauze, try a
| paper towel; fold it in 4 layers and cut it to size.
|
|     On a portion of one of these strips, spread all the graphite 
| paste (messy, isn't it).  You need cover only the first 3" of
| length, but cover the entire width of this 3" portion.  Then place
| the mesh tube on the graphite and wrap the strip around the tube.
| The graphite will be facing the meshwork, of course.
|
|     Put the rubber bands or string around the gauze, and set the 
| unit aside to dry (overnight, at least).  That takes care of the
| air electrode for our "fuel cell".  You may be wondering what part 
| the graphite plays in the air electrode.  Without getting too 
| technical, it allows the oxygen in the air to enter the electro-
| chemical reaction.
|
|     For the zinc electrode, roll the length of the zinc or galvanized
| steel into a tube small enough to fit inside the air electrode 
| (but don't insert it yet).  Then wrap the second gauze strip around
| the zinc.
|
|     After the air electrode has had a chance to dry out, insert the
| wrapped zinc electrode into the tube core.  It should be a snug fit.
|
|     We still need an electrolyte.  So dissolve a tablespoon of salt
| in two or three tablespoons of hot water, and pour this electrolyte
| into a saucer.  That completes all the preparations for the fuel
| cell.  Now, will it work.  Let's see 
.
| Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
Ralph D. Arnold
P.O.Box 889
Oregon City, OR   97045
rarnold@teleport.com


From cyburg@aol.com Sun Aug 28 21:43:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1356 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Date: 28 Aug 1994 19:55:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <33r84t$6a3@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <33fek8$6mf@usenet.elf.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

We use a Solarjack jack pump.  It is not a submersible but looks like an
oil derreck and has a sucker rod and cylinder that goes down the well.   
It pumps 1 1/2 gals per minute from 650ft using  10 M55 (53w ea.)  The
diameter of our drop pipe is 1 and 1/2 inches.  Our equipment not counting
our well costs about $10,000.  We get about 1000gals per day max.  
So when you pump with solar whether you are using submersible pump or 
jack pump you usaully pump during the day when the sun shines into a
holding tank.  Getting 10 gallons a minute like you do with your generator
would be extremely expensive.  You need to decide how many gallons  per
day you NEED to pump.

Cynthia







From conover@max.tiac.net Mon Aug 29 22:23:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1357 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: will this work???
Date: 29 Aug 1994 02:53:25 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <33rij5$rc1@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <67213.rarnold@teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

rarnold@teleport.com wrote:
: I came across a photocopy from a kid's science or electricity
: experiment book (sorry, didn't write down reference).  It looks
: fascinating!!!   Do you believe it will work?  Is there an
: acceptable (But cheaper) substitute for the graphite?  Where
: might I find directions to make a fuel cell powered by alcohol?

: | THE FUEL CELL
: |    
: |     What is a fuel cell?  It is an electrochemical device for 
: | converting the chemical energy in fuels directly into 
: | electricity.
: |
: |     Why is it of high interest to scientists today?  Because it 
: | can operate with two or three times the efficiency of other
: | fuel-burning power producers.  Thus, the fuel cell, although
: | not an energy source in itself, could help make our present fuel
: | supply last years longer than expected.
: |
: |     Many scientists see the fuel cell playing a major role someday 
: | in providing electricity for automobiles and homes.  Even now, 
: | fuel-cell systems are being developed for use as power plants for
: | shopping centers and similar sites.  Small systems have already
: | been used successfully in spacecraft.
: |
: |     In many ways, the fuel cell is like a battery.  It contains no 
: | moving parts, is quiet, and wastes no energy as heat.  Furthermore,
: | it gives off no fumes.  And, like a battery, it has electrodes and
: | an electrolyte.
: |
: |     But unlike a battery, the fuel cell will continue to produce 
: | electricity as long as an oxidant, such as air or oxygen, can be 
: | fed to the electrodes.  In most batteries, one of the electrodes
: | serves as the fuel and is used up during operation, only the fuel
: | cell's electrodes are never used up.  Only the fuel.
: |
: |     There are several types of fuel cells.  Some use hydrogen as
: | fuel.  Others use ammonia, alcohol or various hydrocarbon fuels.
: | But even though they may work differently, all of them acchieve
: | the same result: They produce electricity directly from fuels in 
: | an efficient manner.
: |
: |     Unfortunately, however, scientists have to solve some serious
: | problems before fuel cells can help ease our energy crisis.  Two of
: | these are the high cost and the short lifetime of the fuel cell.
: |
: | EXPERIMENT 9: Making a "Fuel Cell"
: |
: | THINGS NEEDE: A nonmetallic mesh tube, such as a woman's plastic
: | hair roller, measuring about 3" long by 1" in diameter. 3 small
: | rubber bands or some string. Thin sheet of zinc or galvanized 
: | steel 3+1/2" by 2".  A large gauze pad (see Text).  A tablespoon or
: | so of natural powdered graphite (One tube of powdered graphite
: | lubricant should do the trick).  Flour.  Salt.  2 small bowls.
: | 
: |      Making a fuel cell would be easy if we had the right materials.
: | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
: | to get in small quantities.  So let's take an easier path.  Let's
: | build a device that is considered to be a type of fuel cell.  
: | It uses zinc as the fuel (one electrode), air as the oxidant (the
: | other electrode) and saltwater as the electrolyte.
: |
: |     First, pour all the graphite into a bowl.  Next, in a seperate
: | bowl, prepare a binder of 1 part flour and 4 parts water.  Then add 
: | the binder to the graphite, a little at a time, and stir.  What we
: | want to do is to end up with a thick paste, like peanut butter.
: |
: |     Now from the gauze pad cut two strips as wide as the mesh tube
: | (hair roller) and about 7" long.  If you don't have gauze, try a
: | paper towel; fold it in 4 layers and cut it to size.
: |
: |     On a portion of one of these strips, spread all the graphite 
: | paste (messy, isn't it).  You need cover only the first 3" of
: | length, but cover the entire width of this 3" portion.  Then place
: | the mesh tube on the graphite and wrap the strip around the tube.
: | The graphite will be facing the meshwork, of course.
: |
: |     Put the rubber bands or string around the gauze, and set the 
: | unit aside to dry (overnight, at least).  That takes care of the
: | air electrode for our "fuel cell".  You may be wondering what part 
: | the graphite plays in the air electrode.  Without getting too 
: | technical, it allows the oxygen in the air to enter the electro-
: | chemical reaction.
: |
: |     For the zinc electrode, roll the length of the zinc or galvanized
: | steel into a tube small enough to fit inside the air electrode 
: | (but don't insert it yet).  Then wrap the second gauze strip around
: | the zinc.
: |
: |     After the air electrode has had a chance to dry out, insert the
: | wrapped zinc electrode into the tube core.  It should be a snug fit.
: |
: |     We still need an electrolyte.  So dissolve a tablespoon of salt
: | in two or three tablespoons of hot water, and pour this electrolyte
: | into a saucer.  That completes all the preparations for the fuel
: | cell.  Now, will it work.  Let's see 
: .
: | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
: Ralph D. Arnold
: P.O.Box 889
: Oregon City, OR   97045
: rarnold@teleport.com


These materials are dangerous and difficult to obtain????  Zinc, graphite,
salt?  Guess I don't understand the basis for your comment.  Could you
elaborate, since the materials discussed in your posting are among the
most benign substance encountered on Earth.

I do have a major problem with the experiment itself, because what is
constructed would seem to consist of an ordinary Zinc-Carbon battery
type apparatus, which has almost no relationship to fuel cell technology
beyond the point that both produce electricity.

                                        Harry C.




From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Mon Aug 29 22:23:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1358 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: will this work???
Date: 29 Aug 1994 03:52:07 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408290337.VAA19439@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

> : | 
> : |      Making a fuel cell would be easy if we had the right materials.
> : | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
> : | to get in small quantities.  So let's take an easier path.  Let's
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : |
> 
> These materials are dangerous and difficult to obtain????  Zinc, graphite,
> salt?  Guess I don't understand the basis for your comment.  Could you
> elaborate, since the materials discussed in your posting are among the
> most benign substance encountered on Earth.
> 

I think the highlighted comment sez it all -- the original poster cut too
much context from the comment.  HP #35 has two articles on the theory and
practice behind a proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell, for those
with the right tools and excess $$$$$ to try it themselves.

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu



From markdmc@netcom.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1359 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!markdmc
From: markdmc@netcom.com (Mark McWiggins)
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <markdmcCvAJGt.7D4@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <12e_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <gnudd-2708941227190001@edwin-b6.ip.realtime.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:53:17 GMT
Lines: 7
Status: O
X-Status: 

I remember seeing references several years back to alternative
and much cleaner fuels for diesel engines. One guy was running a
diesel Rabbit on used cooking oil, as I recall. I don't know of any
current research or details, though. Anybody?
-- 
Mark McWiggins      Hermes & Associates		  +1 206 632 1905 (24 hrs.)
mark@hermes.com     Box 31356, Seattle WA 98103   +1 206 632 1738 (fax)


From rwizard@america.net Mon Aug 29 22:23:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1360 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Computer Conversion
Date: 29 Aug 1994 14:18:09 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 28
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408290957.A8191-0100000@atl1>
References: <1ab_9408261032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 25 Aug 1994, Michael Davis wrote:

> Hi William,
> 
> turning off the monitor, sound, and printer. He runs a small BBS with 
> it and built the system after killing a few of those little UPS.
> 
I have used probably close to a hundred APC (American Power Conversion)
battery backup systems in environments ranging from poultry processing plants
to corporate offices to feed mills to peanut processing sheds.  I've had
maybe one unit fail (not counting the inevitable battery replacements).
The Biggest Reason I have see for failures in standby systems is people
who plug surge protectors into the output of these units.  DO NOT PLUG
A SURGE SUPPRESSOR INTO A STAND-BY POWER SUPPLY - they will both eventually
fry !  The reason ?  the output of these units is NOT a sine wave, it is
rich in harmonics, and basically the surge suppressor works real hard
to "suppress" a lot of the output from your stand-by.  I also find a lot
of improper wiring but most units alarm on that.  If your buddy is 
blowing up a lot of units I'd say 1) Buy APC they make a good product,
stand behind it, and pay for damage to equipment plugged in to the unit
if it gets surge damaged  2)  Get rid of any downstream surge protection
3) Make sure the unit is adequately sized  4) Check your wiring  5) Put
your wallet back in your pocket - APC units are VERY reasonable in price.
Good Luck
Randy



From wlord@bu.edu Mon Aug 29 22:23:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1361 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unscubscribe
Date: 29 Aug 1994 16:15:02 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 2
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408291557.KAA23379@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe renew-energy



From lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca Mon Aug 29 22:23:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1362 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!halifax-24-2.nstn.ns.ca!lmacneil
From: lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Lorne MacNeil   )
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Deep Freeze in Mountain Hole
Date: 29 Aug 1994 12:06:38 -0300
Organization: Nova Scotia Technology Network
Lines: 24
Sender: news@nstn.ns.ca
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <lmacneil.5.778172773@fox.nstn.ns.ca>
References: <9407267779.AA777903098@MAIL.FWS.GOV>
NNTP-Posting-Host: owl.nstn.ns.ca
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9407267779.AA777903098@MAIL.FWS.GOV> droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV writes:
>
>Will writes:
>     
>>He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side 
>>of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water 
>>inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice 
>>with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next 
>>winter. Has anyone tried this?
>     
>     
>     This might function as a freezer in the winter but would only get you 
>     down to refrigerator levels in the summer.  I was in Central Siberia 
>     last summer and locals there dig 20 foot holes into the permafrost.  
>     They put a trap door on top and a ladder to the bottom.  During the 
>     winter they keep the opening cracked so that the cold freezes the soil 
>     solid, but not too much snow gets in.  The pit then stays pretty cold 
>     all summer long, but becomes pretty slimy and skanky by fall.

I once visited "ice caves" in the Rocky Mountains (approximately 60 miles 
west of Calgary, Alberta. It was early July with temperatures of about 80F 
outside. About 20 feet back in the cave, there was ice on the floor with the 
layer getting thicker the further you went back. I don't know whether it 
lasted for the whole summer or not.


From bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM Mon Aug 29 22:23:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1363 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM (Bruce A. Rawles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Copper Cricket and Sol-Perpetua
Date: 29 Aug 1994 18:26:45 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408291707.AA05105@empress.gvg.tek.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi renewable energy folks!

I just subscribed to this group via the article on page 14 of issue
42 of _Home_Power_ magazine (each issue of which I enjoy immensely).

I've been gathering info on components and systems for our future
home for some time now and I'd appreciate any feedback (first-hand
or otherwise) from users of either the Copper Cricket or Sol-Perpetua 
solar DHW systems; pros, cons, etc. Many thanks in advace!


==================================================================
Bruce Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.tek.com) The paradigms I embrace 
"Nothing real can be threatened."      don't necessarily represent 
- ACIM                                 those of GVG or any others
==================================================================




From patriot@kaiwan.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1364 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!tandem!UB.com!kaiwan.com!not-for-mail
From: patriot@kaiwan.com (Nate)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fridge Gadget
Date: 29 Aug 1994 09:20:37 -0700
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310/527-4279,818/756-0180,714/638-4133)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33t1sl$mmh@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan.kaiwan.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

It's called a Green Plug, go to the Hardware Store.

Randy K. Wilson (rwizard@america.net) wrote:
: I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
: supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
: sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
: here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

: rwizard
-- 
*************************************************************************
                         What a waste of space!
*************************************************************************



From M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk Mon Aug 29 22:23:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1365 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bham!usenet
From: M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk (Mark E. Thornton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: What does RV stand for?
Date: 29 Aug 1994 19:11:41 GMT
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <33tbtd$qu9@sun4.bham.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mec79.bham.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: WinVN version 0.80
Status: O
X-Status: 

For over a year now I have been learning all about solar energy, but I
still can't work out what 'RV' stands for.

Any kind person wants to help me sleep sounder at night, please mail
to:
        mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk

and apologies for being a dullard :-(

Mark


From rwizard@america.net Mon Aug 29 22:23:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1366 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What does RV stand for?
Date: 29 Aug 1994 22:12:02 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9408291729.A29196-0100000@atl1>
References: <33tbtd$qu9@sun4.bham.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


The choice for "what does RV stand for" are as follows:

         1) Really Violent
         2) Random Voltage
hint>    3) Recreational Vehicle

P.S. Sometimes I'm a "dullard" too ;)


On 29 Aug 1994, Mark E. Thornton wrote:

> For over a year now I have been learning all about solar energy, but I
> still can't work out what 'RV' stands for.
> 
> Any kind person wants to help me sleep sounder at night, please mail
> to:
>         mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk
> 
> and apologies for being a dullard :-(
> 
> Mark
> 


From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1367 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: What does RV stand for?
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CvBAwK.HHt@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 19:45:55 GMT
References: <33tbtd$qu9@sun4.bham.ac.uk>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mark E. Thornton (M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk) wrote:
: For over a year now I have been learning all about solar energy, but I
: still can't work out what 'RV' stands for.

Two guesses:

 (1) Recreational Vehicle

 (2) a misspelling of PV (PhotoVoltaic)

: Any kind person wants to help me sleep sounder at night, please mail
: to:
:         mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk


--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From RJOHNSTON@vnet.ibm.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1368 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews.raleigh.ibm.com!usenet
From: RMJOHNS@opie.raleigh.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Phase Change Sheetrock
Date: 29 Aug 1994 19:30:58 GMT
Organization: ISSC Southeast Region
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <33td1i$knc@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
Reply-To: RJOHNSTON@vnet.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
NNTP-Posting-Host: opie.raleigh.ibm.com
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.02
Status: O
X-Status: 

I read an article a couple years( maybe 5 yrs) ago about a phase
change sheetrock. As I recall, the sheetrock had a wax material 
suspended throughout it that had a melting point of room temperature. 
The idea being that it would absorb/give off a good bit of thermal 
energy, making the room slower to heat/cool. Ideal for solar 
applications where you could heat it up all day, and it would emit 
heat through the night.
When I was reading the article, the stuff was still somewhat 
experimental. Has anyone heard much on this? Is it available yet?
I have two rooms to finish this winter, and would like to be able to 
consider something along this line.

Thanks
Rob

Robert Johnston           (919) 543-8406  tl 441-8406
RMJOHNS at RALVM14    RMJOHNS at RTP    RMJOHNS@rtp.vnet.ibm.com
Dept G03A/Building 062
RTP, NC




From r.osborne@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu Mon Aug 29 22:23:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1369 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!mac29.util.utexas.edu!user
From: r.osborne@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Rusty Osborne)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Magnets for HardWater?
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: 29 Aug 1994 20:13:16 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <r.osborne-290894150600@mac29.util.utexas.edu>
References: <Cv1rFM.4oHI@austin.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mac29.util.utexas.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cv1rFM.4oHI@austin.ibm.com>, arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
wrote:

> What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves
> calc buildup all over the water system; nothing new living
> in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well
> instead of municipal system, so I have to treat the water.
> 
> 2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about
> really strong magnet system to put around cold water intake to
> re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't
												^^^^^^^^^
You hit the nail on the head, Ted... we classify magnets under the heading
of "magic" water treatment devices...magic, because it sure isn't science.
-- 
Rusty Osborne
rusty@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu


From shane@mdd.comm.mot.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1370 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!mdisea!not-for-mail
From: shane@mdd.comm.mot.com (Hugh Shane)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: POWER FOR IRRIGATION PUMPING
Date: 29 Aug 1994 13:36:17 -0700
Organization: Motorola, Wireless Data Group - Seattle, WA
Lines: 12
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <33tgs1$3sh@daffyduck.mdd.comm.mot.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: daffyduck.mdd.comm.mot.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm seeking information on irrigation pumping systems that use renewable
energy power sources. Are such systems in use today? If so, where can
I find out more about them? If not, why? I'm interested in production 
farm-sized systems (i.e. several hundred acres), although information
on smaller, prototype systems would be welcome also.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hugh Shane                | 206 487 5909 (PST)
Motorola Wireless Data    | N7UAX 
shane@mdd.comm.mot.com    | "Ain't nobody gets outa here,
                          |  without singin' the blues"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


From M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk Mon Aug 29 22:23:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1371 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!pipex!warwick!bham!usenet
From: M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk (Mark E. Thornton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternative solar cell technology...
Date: 29 Aug 1994 18:58:38 GMT
Organization: The University of Birmingham, UK
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <33tb4u$qu9@sun4.bham.ac.uk>
References: <Cv4182.D5B@cix.compulink.co.uk> <Cv5FLA.LD0@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mec79.bham.ac.uk
X-Newsreader: WinVN version 0.80
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Cv5FLA.LD0@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof) says:
>
>
>I know that this group has it's own terminology and undertsanding about such
>things, so would someone please explain to me what the heck
>
> "1 American cent per Watt" means?
>
> - is this the cost of the installation? 
> - is it somehow related to the delivery cost of the electricity?

I think this refers to 'Watt Peak' - the power generated in the brightest available
conditions (0.5V, ampage proportional to intensity, I think....)

>
>Awfully wideband collector if it's going to collect >99% of the spectrum,
>which stretches well into the infra-red and UV areas.
>
>Please post any info that you find!
>--

Mmm. Does sound a bit sus (or though I haven't read the article. I was always
taught that there was a theoretical upper limit of about 48% efficiency, but
again I might be wrong. I too would welcome any info. Send it to:

    mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk

Mark Thornton



From mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com Mon Aug 29 22:23:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1372 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com (Mike Fisher)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 30 Aug 1994 00:29:32 -0000
Organization: Merlin's Realm BBS (719)-481-9881
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <940829180413601@merlins-realm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


unsubscribe renew-energy



From wlord@bu.edu Mon Aug 29 22:23:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1373 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (Willliam Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 30 Aug 1994 00:59:43 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408300040.TAA26035@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe renew-energy

Professor William Lord
Boston University
College of Communication
640 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617 353-5974




From billp@cerfnet.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1374 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!cerfnet.com!billp
From: billp@cerfnet.com (Bill Power)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: motors to generators?
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 20:39:11
Organization: Power Computer Services
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <billp.8.0014A7D4@cerfnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: default70.usa.cerfnet.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have a whole lot of motors...permanent magnet dc brush type motors. The 
rated input voltage is typically 30vdc. As I experiment with them I have 
discovered that they make really good generators. Big time output as well.
Like about 90 volts dc when I spin them with an air wrench (high speed I 
admit, but Jesus what a spark!) I presume they would be usable as wind 
powered generators if I had had some way to regulate the output voltage. I 
have not yet done any real test for rpm to voltage out or anything like that.
I figure they would be good for trickle chargers for batteries etc. Any 
suggestions or maybe there are some propeller makers out there, or electrical 
engineers who would like to form an enterprise. It seems like these motors 
would be a natural for somthing of this type. Any interest or ideas?
billp@cerfnet.com


From Andy.Shelton@f25.n280.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1375 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n280!f25!Andy.Shelton
From: Andy.Shelton@f25.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Andy Shelton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <e44_9408292000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 13:00:27 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Howard's Notebook
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

->  WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?
->
->         I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd
->         no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a 120 volt
->         circuit.
->Rather than 12 v I would recommend a 24v system 3wire, much as a
120/240 volt AC system is wired... 24v chargers are readily available
(try golf cart or fork truck sources) 
The reasons are many... you can get 2 voltages that way.. run any 
12v ya like but also take advantage of 24v on higher power loads.
there is less voltage drop at 24v etc.  
Of course ya can wire solar panels for any voltage 


From bobhilt@eskimo.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1376 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!bobhilt
From: bobhilt@eskimo.com (Bob Hiltner)
Subject: Boats capturing energy...
Message-ID: <CvBEDK.4oM@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:00:56 GMT
Lines: 41
Status: O
X-Status: 

I was sitting around the table saturday discussing an idea I've had for 
some time, which I've never been able to visualize as an actual device 
until now.  What I see is that on sailboats, there is an incredible 
amount of force from the sail, none of which is used to generate 
electrical power for the boat.  First I thought of small wind generators, 
but don't think that really captures any of the force.  Then i came to 
two ideas which I think might have merit.

One: utilize the boats pitching motion and weight to drive a whale-tail 
ratchet powered generator.  This would rely on the wave motion of the 
boat to flip the tail up and down (the most hydro-dynamic shape would be 
optimal).  In other words, the boat pitching up and down through a (say) 10 
degree arc would give the whale 10 degrees of arc to ratchet back and 
forth.  The resistance to this force would be regenerative to the battery 
system.  The force is essentially lost otherwise, I believe 
(vibration/heat).  This is not like a dragged water-powered generator 
which would slow the boat.  It is more akin to capturing some of the 
"spring" effect of the boats bouyancy in the water (i.e., it doesn't rely 
on friction/drag).   Does anyone see a problem with this type of device?

two: This would be a loss-type device, which would essentially be a 
tension drivien generator attached to the winches which hold the jib/main 
sheets.  The tension could be translated into power for the generator 
only by slowly letting the winch roll out under the tension of the 
sheet.  Useful probably in an environment with frequent tacks, where 
letting the sheet out at a slow rate would not be particularly 
noticeable.  The problem I see is a potentially low amount of useable 
power from a device like this.  (How much energy is stored in the 
sail/sheet system (5-10 feet at a couple hundred pounds, max?)  
Obviously, you don't want the system to let your sheet out all the way.

So.  Comments please.  My feeling is that the whale-tail is a better 
idea, and it sounds feasible to me.

Are there other systems utilizing regeerated power from the sail or wave 
action of boats?

 --
Bob Hiltner <bobhilt@eskimo.com>
"It is not enough to do well (and I hope you do), you must also do good" 
                                                                   ^^^^


From kencorn@clark.net Wed Aug 31 22:46:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1377 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!kencorn
From: kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T. Cornelius)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Boats capturing energy...
Date: 30 Aug 1994 13:55:11 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <33vdnv$eeo@clarknet.clark.net>
References: <CvBEDK.4oM@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote:

: two: This would be a loss-type device, which would essentially be a 
: tension drivien generator attached to the winches which hold the jib/main 
: sheets.  The tension could be translated into power for the generator 
: only by slowly letting the winch roll out under the tension of the 
: sheet.  Useful probably in an environment with frequent tacks, where 
: letting the sheet out at a slow rate would not be particularly 
: noticeable.  The problem I see is a potentially low amount of useable 
: power from a device like this.  (How much energy is stored in the 
: sail/sheet system (5-10 feet at a couple hundred pounds, max?)  
: Obviously, you don't want the system to let your sheet out all the way.

: So.  Comments please.  My feeling is that the whale-tail is a better 
: idea, and it sounds feasible to me.

I'm not going to comment on your first idea, but your second one shows 
that you are definitely not a sailor.  Sailors are finicky as hell about 
exactly how their sails are set, sometimes a half-inch makes a 
difference.  



--
Kenneth T. Cornelius  
kencorn@clark.net     
                  


From kencorn@clark.net Wed Aug 31 22:46:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1378 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!kencorn
From: kencorn@clark.net (Kenneth T. Cornelius)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: motors to generators?
Date: 30 Aug 1994 14:02:35 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <33ve5r$eeo@clarknet.clark.net>
References: <billp.8.0014A7D4@cerfnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bill Power (billp@cerfnet.com) wrote:
: I have a whole lot of motors...permanent magnet dc brush type motors. The 
: rated input voltage is typically 30vdc. As I experiment with them I have 
: discovered that they make really good generators. Big time output as well.
: Like about 90 volts dc when I spin them with an air wrench (high speed I 
: admit, but Jesus what a spark!) I presume they would be usable as wind 
: powered generators if I had had some way to regulate the output voltage. I 
: have not yet done any real test for rpm to voltage out or anything like that.
: I figure they would be good for trickle chargers for batteries etc. Any 
: suggestions or maybe there are some propeller makers out there, or electrical 
: engineers who would like to form an enterprise. It seems like these motors 
: would be a natural for somthing of this type. Any interest or ideas?
: billp@cerfnet.com

Why don't you hook one to a battery (or a couple of batteries) and see 
what happens?  While the motor is turning, of course.  

--
Kenneth T. Cornelius  
kencorn@clark.net     
                  


From howard.smith@ahabbs.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1379 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!xnet!quake.xnet.com!sid!howard.smith
From: howard.smith@ahabbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Educational color book
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 03:14:00 GMT
Message-ID: <940830063025196@ahabbs.com>
Organization: AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
Distribution: world
Lines: 27   
Status: O
X-Status: 

AHA INTRODUCES "HYDRO HERO"

The American Hydrogen Association has created a great comic  book
character to dramatize for children the need for renewable  ener-
gy.

"Start of Life" comics, written by AHA President, Roy  McAlister,
and gloriously illustrated by Carolyn Presley, takes kids through
solar energy, fossil fuel depletion, air pollution,  over-popula-
tion and renewable hydrogen energy.

Will  Hydro Hero, that is, the hydrogen atom, be able to save  us
from  ourselves?   It teaches that hydrogen as a  mass  fuel  may
happen, but it will take the efforts of each of us.

The comic book was distributed at a recent conference in  Europe,
where it was reportedly quite a hit.

Copies can be obtained from the

American Hydrogen Association
216 South Clark Drive, Suite 103
Tempe, AZ 85281
Tel: (602)921-0433
Fax: (602)967-6601
---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From howard.smith@ahabbs.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1380 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!xnet!quake.xnet.com!sid!howard.smith
From: howard.smith@ahabbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fueal cell vehicles
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 03:16:00 GMT
Message-ID: <940830063025197@ahabbs.com>
Organization: AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
Distribution: world
Lines: 36   
Status: O
X-Status: 

FORD AND CHRYSLER TO BUILD FUEL CELL CARS!

Ford and Chrysler* have been awarded contracts for fuel
cell cars by the U.S. Department of Energy.  Ford will
get $13.8 million and Chrysler $15 million to develop
proton exchange membrane fuel cell engines in light-duty
passenger vehicles.  30-kilowatt fuel cell systems are
planned, using hydrogen as the on-board fuel.  The
companies are to complete prototypes within 30 months.

The awards to integrated, large auto companies is con-
sistent with DOE's recent philosophy that only the big
companies can do all aspects of development-to-market
work, including mass-production, sales and service.

This claim is disputed by small and midsized firms, who
believe the big auto companies have no real interest in
new technologies which compete with what they are now
selling successfully.  Smaller firms believe they have
a better record of quick, quality research, a real
interest in getting fuel cell vehicles (and other tech-
nologies) to the market place.

Will Ford and Chrysler simply consume DOE's funds, with
minimum effort and no commitment? Or, will they truly
make fuel cell cars happen?  Stay tuned.

* Through Pentastar Electronics Inc.
********************************************************
>From the summer 94 newsletter of the
American Association For Fuel Cells
50 San Miguel Avenue
Daly, CA 94105

---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 31 22:46:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1381 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Emmisions Testing/EV's
Message-ID: <6ed_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 06:59:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

TC>Nope I disagree.  I'm tired of breathing dirty air and not
TC>not being able to see the mountains from where I live.
TC>The health costs and cleanup costs associated with pollution
TC>are very high and yes the there is a reduced quality of life
TC>due to this.  And I do not beleive that it is only a few dirty
TC>cars causing this problem.  Newer cars have less pollution
TC>than older cars, but in a few years those "new" cars will
TC>start to need money put into them for maintenance and the
TC>amount of pollution from them will go up as the owners don't
TC>spend the money for the required repairs.

TC>Auto exhaust is a major contributor to pollution, in fact
TC>here in Sacramento 70% of our smog comes from auto exhausts
TC>and is the driving force behind getting the Electric Vehicle
TC>on the road.

Then why don't *you* install the EPA systems and pay for them. Let us
who don't have your conditions do without the systems or their costs. It
seems ridiculous to have to pay for things not needed to cure a problem
that does not exist as we have to do now.

TC>It was (and is) CARB (California Air Resources Board) who
TC>developed the ZEV (Zero Emmision Vehicle) mandate to put
TC>Electric Vehicles on the road starting in 1998.  This will
TC>require the major auto manufacturers to develope and produce
TC>EV's for sale to the public.  I beleive that there are
TC>some places where government involvement is needed and this
TC>is one of them.

With no return on the increase in costs to those of us who have no
problems to cure.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 31 22:46:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1382 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Snatching Induction
Message-ID: <6ee_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 07:10:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 

JD> >TM>    I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
JD> >TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical sockets
JD> >
JD> > Yep, that and also to keep my kids from sticking just about
JD> > everything they can think of in them.

JD>Hehehehe

JD>I think getting jolted at age 5 by sticking a bobby pin
JD>into an outlet is what "sparked" my interest in electricity
JD>and motivated me to get a degree in electronics later in
JD>life.

JD>You're depriving your kids, Brian. <<snicker>>

Besides, it's so much fun watching their hair stand out, their eyes bug
and roll and their bods flop around !!!  The smell does get bad at times
though.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 31 22:46:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1383 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Gale.Barrows
From: Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <6ef_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 27 Aug 94 07:19:04 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 

DH>My dad has been howling all week that we need a "jack pump"
DH>for our well.  He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump
DH>will be able to draw up 10+ gallons/min from our 525 feet
DH>of well.  I'm not so sure.  Does anyone have any experience
DH>with these things?  I'm not even sure I know what one is.
DH>A 12/24 volt pump would be great (I've just about had it
DH>with carting the generator to the pumphouse every
DH>morning!).  :^)

What are you pumping with now? A 24 volt system should be able to do
anything a 110/220 system can. There are submersible 24 volt pumps to be
had and 24 volt motors to be had for other systems. If what you call a
"jack pump" is the same as what we call a pump jack, it is simply a
motor driven contraption that raises and lowers a suction rod with a
piston at the end. In my area these are usualy run with a gasoline 3.5-5
hp motor from Messr's Brigs and Stratton. Electric is common but the
cost of running wire to a pasture well is often prohibitive.

 * SLMR 2.1a * Go Armed, Go Safe


From Phil.Wagner@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Wed Aug 31 22:46:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1384 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Phil.Wagner
From: Phil.Wagner@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Phil Wagner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: drive crash
Message-ID: <6f0_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 17:44:31 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods -Redwood Network-
Lines: 3
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

...my drive crashed last night and I lost most of the FIDO messages.
Anyone who has sent mail expecting it to be read on Redwood Network BBS should
consider re-sending it/them.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1385 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f525!p3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: generator efficiency diesel v propane....
Message-ID: <71e_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Aug 94 13:44:25 GMT
Organization: [Fido] A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (20 Aug 94) ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366- wrote to All...

 AM> Do you want to live and/or work in the plume of toxic,
 AM> carcinogenic particulate that small diesels produce?

No. But I'm wondering why you said "small diesels"? Are larger
diesels, like those in busses, any better as far as how much
pollution they produce?


Ian



... Any given program, when running, is obsolete.


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1386 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f525!p3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wind Power Question (towers)
Message-ID: <71f_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Aug 94 13:47:42 GMT
Organization: [Fido] A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 37
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: MShadowfax
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (20 Aug 94) MShadowfax wrote to All...

 M > Someone has also proposed the use of ham-radio tower
 M > components. They described them as cheap ($30-40 for ten foot
 M > sections) and very durable with high load capacities and
 M > guy-less installations to 100'+ (I only need maybe 30-40' if
 M > that).

Guyless for what application? Putting an antenna up there is one
thing, but a wind machine generates a lot more force than an antenna
every will.  I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that it would have to
be one honking tower to support a wind machine without guys. But I
could be wrong. I'd really recommend checking out the articles on
towers in the back issues of _Home Power_.

 M > The only catch is having to climb the tower for maintenance
 M > purposes (NBD). Any thoughts?

Three sided ham towers are considerably easier to climb than poles
<g>. But if you're not comfortable climbing, then any tower will be
daunting. I climb trees as a sideline, so I'm comfortable in the
air, though I'd rather climb something with branches than climb a
tower. But if you want to climb it, get yourself a simple linesman's
belt and a safety line and just take it slow and easy. If that makes
you uncomfortable, 30-40' ladders are not unheard of, and you may
just be able to rent or borrow one when the need arises.

My feeling is not to go into something you can't maintain yourself,
since it may be hard to get service out there when you need it.



Ian



... This tagline stolen by aliens!


From Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1387 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n356!f12!Lewis.Cosper
From: Lewis.Cosper@f12.n356.z1.fidonet.org (Lewis Cosper)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <743_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 12:54:40 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Mansion  (Charleston, Oregon) USA
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Ian,


 WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

> Careful. This is a religious question <g>.

<<<Big Grin>>>


Well written little ditty. Enjoyed reading your views.

Lewis


From John.Blevins@f714.n362.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1388 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n362!f714!John.Blevins
From: John.Blevins@f714.n362.z1.fidonet.org (John Blevins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NOT theft
Message-ID: <74b_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 14:24:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The KASTLE ... Getting Better Every Day ... Chatt. TN.
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Zachariah Czeck
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Quoting Zachariah Czeck to Brian Latta <=-

 ZC> Tuesday 16-Aug-94 01:26:45
 ZC> santarosa,ca,usa

 ZC> they are free waves in the air (a waste product no less),  and you may
 ZC> use them(or not:)  as YOU see fit!

Unfortunately Uncle Sam thinks that the electromagnetic spectrum belongs
to him even on private property.

 ZC> This really is MEANINGLESS to the issue but am i correct in thinking 
 ZC> that this is not actually using the power companies electricity, but 
 ZC> converting their waste into useable energy.  The only loss the 
 ZC> pCompanies face is that people no longer need to PAY them for eletric.
 ZC> anybody?

It does increase the impedence on the power companies lines to induce power
from the magnetic fields... Yes the power company looses power, not just
potential sales.

... 911? If you are reporting a murder, press 1, for fire, press 2...


From Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:46:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1389 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n374!f1!Julie.Seberry
From: Julie.Seberry@f1.n374.z1.fidonet.org (Julie Seberry)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: IDEAS FOR WORK AT HOME
Message-ID: <74d_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 03:13:22 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Techtalk BBS, Cocoa, FL 407-635-8833
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Gale. Sorry it has taken me so long to answer you but lightening got my
modem. If you do collect information, like different scholarships that are
available, how much could you charge for info like that?  Also, do you know of
any info that has a good successful record?  How do you find people who need to
use your info? Questions, questions. Sorry. I wish you lived near me and could
stop by but...  Thank you for all your help and advice. I can use all that I
can get. :>


From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 31 22:46:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1390 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Educational color book
Date: 30 Aug 1994 16:26:30 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 78
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <33vmjn$nov@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <940830063025196@ahabbs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Howard Smith (howard.smith@ahabbs.com) wrote:
: AHA INTRODUCES "HYDRO HERO"

: The American Hydrogen Association has created a great comic  book
: character to dramatize for children the need for renewable  ener-
: gy.

: "Start of Life" comics, written by AHA President, Roy  McAlister,
: and gloriously illustrated by Carolyn Presley, takes kids through
: solar energy, fossil fuel depletion, air pollution,  over-popula-
: tion and renewable hydrogen energy.

: Will  Hydro Hero, that is, the hydrogen atom, be able to save  us
: from  ourselves?   It teaches that hydrogen as a  mass  fuel  may
: happen, but it will take the efforts of each of us.

: The comic book was distributed at a recent conference in  Europe,
: where it was reportedly quite a hit.

: Copies can be obtained from the

: American Hydrogen Association
: 216 South Clark Drive, Suite 103
: Tempe, AZ 85281
: Tel: (602)921-0433
: Fax: (602)967-6601
: ---
:  þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


Where is all the energy required to make the hyrdogen fuel coming from?
Inquiring young minds want to know.

------------------------------------

Perhaps I'm in the minority of this, but I'm offended whenever I run
across an example of someone attempting to indoctrinate youngsters with
their particular beliefs and conclusions, while passing it off as
'education'.  Doesn't matter if its the nuclear energy folks or the
renewable energy folks doing this, it's still youth oriented progaganda.  
>From my standpoint, pornography does less harm to youth than this stuff.

As a survivor of WW II era propaganda, I was originally 'educated'
to 'know' that all Japanese were evil, greedy, buck-teethed barbarians, 
incapable of knowing human love and emotions; Germans were all unfeeling 
monsters that would enslave us, then torture and kill us, and that anyone 
with a European accent was likely a spy; that 'plastics' would become the
preferred material in the post-war world, and that we would live in
homes, drive cars, and fly in planes completely made of plastic;
and, oh yes, that atomic energy would provide power too cheap to
meter, while its radiation would produce superior crops and improve
our health.  

Somehow I did survive all of this, however probably not without
experiencing some 'mind warp.' I hate most plastics (most of it
is unstable, non-degradable, crap), have several Japanese and
German friends, and view atomic energy as a dangerous, mixed
blessing (much like electricity).  Still, it took a lot of
work to undo the early 'brainwashing' to be able to reach
rational, informed conclusions.

Today, a 'red light' comes on whenever I encounter any
propaganda type materials, particularly when targeted at 
children. With the possible exception of materials of a religious
nature (even here there are better ways of propagating the faith),
or certain social issues aimed at 'the low end of the food chain,'
this type of 'educational material' isn't appropriate.
  
So please, no more propaganda, even if it is well meaning.
Educate youth, don't indoctrinate them. Give them the tools
that will allow them to reach their own conclusions, but realize
that their conclusions may or may not identical to yours.


                                    Harry C.

<flame shields on>



From dombrows@lds.loral.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1391 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!wdl1!mail!cps201!dombrows
From: dombrows@lds.loral.com (Brian Dombrowski, 5424)
Subject: Re: Boats capturing energy...
Message-ID: <1994Aug30.165957.13187@lds.loral.com>
Sender: news@lds.loral.com
Reply-To: dombrows@lds.loral.com
Organization: LORAL Data Systems
References: <CvBEDK.4oM@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 16:59:57 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article 4oM@eskimo.com, bobhilt@eskimo.com (Bob Hiltner) writes:
> I was sitting around the table saturday discussing an idea I've had for 
> some time, which I've never been able to visualize as an actual device 
> until now.  What I see is that on sailboats, there is an incredible 
> amount of force from the sail, none of which is used to generate 
> electrical power for the boat.  First I thought of small wind generators, 
> but don't think that really captures any of the force.  Then i came to 

I've seen quite a few sailboats out in the Sarasota bay that have
propeller type wind generators.  Many of these people live on their
boats in federal water because it's free mooring.  Anyway, these
people depend on these things for all their electical power (
using batteries for storage of course.)  Most of them mount on pole
placed at the stern and they crank quite fast in a gentle breeze.
I'm sure there not cheap but it might be easy to make one yourself.

Brian




From conover@max.tiac.net Wed Aug 31 22:46:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1392 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Boats capturing energy...
Date: 30 Aug 1994 17:17:38 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <33vpji$nov@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <CvBEDK.4oM@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote:
: I was sitting around the table saturday discussing an idea I've had for 
: some time, which I've never been able to visualize as an actual device 
: until now.  What I see is that on sailboats, there is an incredible 
: amount of force from the sail, none of which is used to generate 
: electrical power for the boat.  First I thought of small wind generators, 
: but don't think that really captures any of the force.  Then i came to 
: two ideas which I think might have merit.

Be careful about this.  Force does not equal power, only force over a
distance, eg. foot-pounds, Newton-Meters, etc.  Also, the force on the
sail is very critically determined by the orientation of the sail, and
slight position changes make a dramatic difference in the energy available
to propel the ship.

: One: utilize the boats pitching motion and weight to drive a whale-tail 
: ratchet powered generator.  This would rely on the wave motion of the 
: boat to flip the tail up and down (the most hydro-dynamic shape would be 
: optimal).  In other words, the boat pitching up and down through a (say) 10 
: degree arc would give the whale 10 degrees of arc to ratchet back and 
: forth.  The resistance to this force would be regenerative to the battery 
: system.  The force is essentially lost otherwise, I believe 
: (vibration/heat).  This is not like a dragged water-powered generator 
: which would slow the boat.  It is more akin to capturing some of the 
: "spring" effect of the boats bouyancy in the water (i.e., it doesn't rely 
: on friction/drag).   Does anyone see a problem with this type of device?

Sure, the problem is one of violating the conservation of energy.  In
doing this, you are taking energy away from the overall wind-boat-water
dynamic system.  Since the only source of energy here is the wind,
energy absorbed from the dynamic equilibrium would effectively slow
the ship (probably not by much, though).  Since sailboats are already
incredibly slow beasts, sailors are critical about any losses in
forward speed.

Another factor here is the pitching action of the sailboat itself,
the dynamics of which are critical to safety and stability in high
seas.  Sailboat hulls are carefully designed and tuned to maintain
stability, under fairly large angles of heel.  (Sailboats aren't
vertical when under sail.)  The boat pitches to accomodate ocean
swell effects.  If you dampen the hull reaction to the 
forces of the water, you can end up being swamped by a following
sea, or porpoise into an on-coming swell, effectively becoming
a submarine very quickly.  When you consider the incredible 
amounts of ballast that sailboats carry in their keel, and the
fact that they sink like rocks if filled with water, you can
probably appreciate why sailors would be reluctant to experiment
with any device that could significantly affect hull dynamics.
(The practice of many ocean sailors to carry a floating EPIRB
transmitter loosely bracketed half-way up the mast and a deck
mounted life-raft, reflect how fast these 'whales' can dive!)

: two: This would be a loss-type device, which would essentially be a 
: tension drivien generator attached to the winches which hold the jib/main 
: sheets.  The tension could be translated into power for the generator 
: only by slowly letting the winch roll out under the tension of the 
: sheet.  Useful probably in an environment with frequent tacks, where 
: letting the sheet out at a slow rate would not be particularly 
: noticeable.  The problem I see is a potentially low amount of useable 
: power from a device like this.  (How much energy is stored in the 
: sail/sheet system (5-10 feet at a couple hundred pounds, max?)  
: Obviously, you don't want the system to let your sheet out all the way.

No, no, no.....    ;-)

Sheets determine sail trim, and sail trim is **very** critical, where
even a small change can halve the speed of the ship. And believe me,
when your ship is maxd-out at 7-knots, no sailor wants to cut his
speed in half!  Here, and inch or two of trim is a large change, and
many sailors work to keep trim closer than this.

: So.  Comments please.  My feeling is that the whale-tail is a better 
: idea, and it sounds feasible to me.

: Are there other systems utilizing regeerated power from the sail or wave 
: action of boats?

I believe that there is a system that uses floats of some sort to extract
energy from the wave action affecting a moored boat. They don't produce
a lot of energy though, and I have never seen one 'in the flesh'.

PVs and small wind turbines seem to be the passive energy sources 
commonly in use today within the sailing community.

Keep on thinking about these things, because you're raising some
interesting ideas.  There are probably enough sailors around here 
to critique them vis-a-vis possible interaction with sailing
principles.

                                   Harry C.




From ned.nisson@energy.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1393 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!iat.holonet.net!energy!ned.nisson
From: ned.nisson@energy.com
Subject: PHASE CHANGE SHEETROCK
Message-ID: <9408300806.0BDRI00@energy.com>
Organization: Energy Design Online (212)662-0388
X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.08
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 08:06:07 
Lines: 23
Status: O
X-Status: 



 > Reply-To: RJOHNSTON@vnet.ibm.com (Rob Johnston)
 > NNTP-Posting-Host: opie.raleigh.ibm.com
 > X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.02
 > I read an article a couple years( maybe 5 yrs) ago about a phase
 > change sheetrock. As I recall, the sheetrock had a wax material 
 > suspended throughout it that had a melting point of room 
 > temperature. 
 > The idea being that it would absorb/give off a good bit of thermal 
 > energy, making the room slower to heat/cool. Ideal for solar 
 > applications where you could heat it up all day, and it would emit 
 > heat through the night.
 > When I was reading the article, the stuff was still somewhat 
 > experimental. Has anyone heard much on this? Is it available yet?

USG is now working on commercializing phase-chage gypsum board.  Much of the
preliminary research was done at the Florida Solar Energy Center.  For more
information, you can search the online database at Energy Design Online
(212)662-0388.
Ned Nisson
ned.nisson@energy.com



From efpeters@mtu.edu Wed Aug 31 22:46:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1394 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.mtu.edu!news.mtu.edu!not-for-mail
From: efpeters@mtu.edu (Petersen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fuel Cells?
Date: 30 Aug 1994 13:43:00 -0400
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <33vr34$n14@eegradsrv.ee>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eegradsrv.ee.mtu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone know the efficiency of fuel cells?
What can a fuel cell burn?
  -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?
Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
engine would?  
How big would a fuel cell have to be to power a car, or a home?
Are there special operating conditions that would make it difficult
to run a fuel cell in a car or home?

Where can I find out about this?
  
I saw the posting on fuel cells in cars.  This seems like a good
idea.  You could have an electric vehicle that stores it's energy
in a form that is much more compact than a normal battery.  


Ethan Petersen
efpeters@mtu.edu



From DBHolmes@aol.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1395 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Date: 30 Aug 1994 23:14:13 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408301830.tn00751@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

As did Eric F. Richards, I thought that others (experts ?) might be following
this thread, and could offer "real" advice. But I will now join him, offering
an indirect suggestion:

Real Goods publishes the Alternative Energy Sourcebook. Buy it ($16 or so);
read it; learn from it: it will answer lots of the questions raised here.

7th ed. (1992), p.303 -- section on Deep Well Pumping, by Jon Vara. In the
pages thereafter, "jack pumps" are described and illustrated. Indeed, they
involve an up-and-down shaft ("sucker rod") and a pump cylinder on the end of
the rod, down at the bottom of the well. Models are described suitable for
wells 500 to 1,000 ft. deep. Pump prices start at $3,000, but the real advice
is: "Please write or call one of our technicians for an exact price quotation
as these units are custom engineered for each application."

Real Goods Trading Corporation
UKIAH, CA
800-762-7325

DBHolmes

----"Well, well, well; the story of three holes in the ground." ----



From bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM Wed Aug 31 22:46:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1396 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM (Bruce A. Rawles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Date: 31 Aug 1994 00:03:48 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 53
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408302340.AA12219@empress.gvg.tek.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Does anyone know the efficiency of fuel cells?
>What can a fuel cell burn?
>  -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?
>Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
>engine would?  
>How big would a fuel cell have to be to power a car, or a home?
>Are there special operating conditions that would make it difficult
>to run a fuel cell in a car or home?
>
>Where can I find out about this?
>  
>I saw the posting on fuel cells in cars.  This seems like a good
>idea.  You could have an electric vehicle that stores it's energy
>in a form that is much more compact than a normal battery.  
>
>
>Ethan Petersen
>efpeters@mtu.edu

Check out back issues of _Home_Power_ magazine (an excellent
publication in many alternative energy areas). They are at:
Bx 520, Ashland, Oregon postal zone 97520  (916)475-0830 for
subscription & back issues; (916)475-3179 FAX or
(707)822-8640 (BBS)

Also, contact Roger Billings at:
Project Hydrogen, American Academy of Science,
TechCenter, Ste. 1000, 26900 E. Pink Hill Rd.
Independence, Missouri 64057-3284
(816) 229-3800

The Billings folks had a hydrogen powered car prototype at the
Solar Energy Expo & Rally (SEER) at Willits, Calif. a few years
ago (probably this year, too, but I didn't make it there this
summer).

Based on their prototype, I'd say forget dinosaur fumes and go
straight to the most plentiful element in the Universe, Hydrogen.

The titanium-metal-hydride tank they had in their prototype was
about 3' by 1' square (about 3 cu. ft.) with a range of 200-300
miles as I recall, the fuel cell itself was in the breadbox size
range (not much there when they lifted the hood! Best of all, when
you pressed down the (H2) gas pedal, that horribly toxic stuff
we call water came out the tailpipe! :-)

==================================================================
Bruce Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.tek.com) The paradigms I embrace 
"Nothing real can be threatened."      don't necessarily represent 
- ACIM                                 those of GVG or any others
==================================================================




From kwetzel@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu Wed Aug 31 22:46:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1397 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!kwetzel
From: kwetzel@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE and AE Mailing Lists
Message-ID: <1994Aug30.151323.71604@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Date: 30 Aug 94 15:13:23 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 


To anyone who can answer this:

I've only been reading this BB for a short while, and I keep 
seeing postings which include in the sourceline stuff about
RE and AE mailing lists.  What do these refer to?  Thanks in
advance for any info.

Kyle Wetzel                   kwetzel@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
University of Kansas



From mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:50 EDT 1994
Article: 1398 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: mike.fisher@merlins-realm.com (Mike Fisher)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 31 Aug 1994 04:25:20 -0000
Organization: Merlin's Realm BBS (719)-481-9881
Lines: 5
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <940830220413656@merlins-realm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 


unsubscribe renew-energy





From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1399 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CvD945.Gto@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 21:02:28 GMT
References: <33vr34$n14@eegradsrv.ee>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 56
Status: O
X-Status: 

Petersen (efpeters@mtu.edu) wrote:
: Does anyone know the efficiency of fuel cells?
: What can a fuel cell burn?

Doesn't really 'burn' fuel as such. fuel cell is not too unlike
a battery- with a chemical reaction directly forming electricity.

Typical 'fuel' might be an aluminum plate. 

:   -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?

Doesn't apply- these would not be fuel of choice.

: Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
: engine would? 

Fuel cell is NOT an engine- think of it more as a battery. May have
noxious chemicals inside which may/may not be vented but generally
no 'emissions' as such. I would think that the dominant environmental
problem would be the manufacture/ handling/ disposal of the 'fuel'.
 
: How big would a fuel cell have to be to power a car, or a home?

I don't have numbers handy but energy and power density can look pretty
darn good- certainly as good as std lead-acid batteries.

: Are there special operating conditions that would make it difficult
: to run a fuel cell in a car or home?

Not really. Primary barrier is cost.

: Where can I find out about this?

Do literature search- all kinds of work has been done with fuel cells.

Your local library would likely have books that cover this subject.
:   
: I saw the posting on fuel cells in cars.  This seems like a good
: idea.  You could have an electric vehicle that stores it's energy
: in a form that is much more compact than a normal battery.  

One advantage over batteries is that 'charging' consists of replenishing
chemicals rather than pumping in electrons so can be very fast- like
conventional fueled engines. 

As mentioned above, the primary barrier is that this technology
has not developed (yet) to the level at which it approaches 
economic feasibility. All kinds of promise though.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County

PS- better watch out for the self-appointed net watchdogs- fuel cells
    wouldn't fit into their concept of politically-correct
    'renewable' energy sources.


From JAC@UNB.CA Wed Aug 31 22:46:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1400 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!UNB.CA!JAC
From: JAC@UNB.CA (James Canning)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wind Power (Towers)
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:11:40 UNDEFINED
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <JAC.76.012E1AB0@UNB.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.202.201.34
Summary: Towers need to be strong
Keywords: Towers, Wind Power
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1]
Status: O
X-Status: 

On the subject of how big a tower needs to be, I have a friend who has a wind 
powered generator, 110 volt DC, nominally 2 KW - 3 KW peak. This beast weighs 
in at about 700 lbs according to the manual. In any high wind situation this 
would put considerable stress on the tower.

The tower it is on is triangular looking at it from the side and is three 
sided. It is mounted on three large concrete blocks that are about three feet 
square at the top. He said they get wider as they go down in the ground. I 
think he said they are about five or six feet down.

The tower is made of about 1/4" x 2 1/2" galvanized angle steel. It is very 
solidly built. When starting the generator up from a stop you can feel the 
tower vibrate until it is spinning up to operational speed.

There are also some 12 volt DC generators that are much smaller that are on 
towers like hams use for smaller antennas. These are non-self-supporting 
towers and they are guyed.

Just thought I'd send this to try to impress on you that any of the larger 
generators need a VERY solid tower. Holding up something that weighs 500 lbs 
up 40 feet is a rough life. 

My $0.02

TTFN  Jim       JAC@UNB.CA


From billp@cerfnet.com Wed Aug 31 22:46:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1401 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!cerfnet.com!billp
From: billp@cerfnet.com (Bill Power)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar Powered Tinted Windows?
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:36:11
Organization: Power Computer Services
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <billp.9.00149B08@cerfnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: default63.usa.cerfnet.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have toyed with the idea for some time about solar powered tinting of 
windows for home or commercial application.

The concept is this..solar panels provide the voltage to drive LCD 
panels(windows)i.e. the more sun the more power..more power...darker 
windows...less indoor heat. less heat is less load on air conditioning etc.

the LCD's would be the windows. An adaptation (sort of) of the photo-sun 
lenses available for eye glasses but apparantly too expensive for commercial 
use.

Has it been done? Does any one else have ideas along these lines? Please be 
gentle...I am very new to this discussion group. Thanks billp@cerfnet.com


From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Wed Aug 31 22:46:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1402 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Date: 31 Aug 1994 14:25:11 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 88
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199408311405.IAA04470@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof) writes:
> 
> Petersen (efpeters@mtu.edu) wrote:
> : Does anyone know the efficiency of fuel cells?
> : What can a fuel cell burn?
> 

Correct so far...

> Doesn't really 'burn' fuel as such. fuel cell is not too unlike
> a battery- with a chemical reaction directly forming electricity.
> 
> Typical 'fuel' might be an aluminum plate. 

Stan slipped here...  fuel cells typically are fed hydrogen and oxygen,
producing electricity, heat, and water.

To quote from Home Power, Issue number 35, page 37:

	"Phosphoric acid fuel cells (PAFCs) probably represent the most
mature fuel cell technology...

	"The fuel choice of PAFCs is not restricted to pure hydrogen.
Typically, these near-term plants will use natural gas, methanol, or
light distillates derived from fossil fuel sources.  These cells operate
at moderate temperatures (less than 200C) with auxiliary reformers.
Reformers convert the hydrocarbons to a mixture of hydrogen and carbon
dioxide gases for the cells.  The requirement for the initial reformation
step sacrifices some efficiency, but the advantage of PAFCs is that they 
are tolerant of CO2 and other reformate impurities.  The overall efficiency
improves above the 40-50% range if the installations are used as
cogeneration plants, and the waste heat is used to make hot water and/or
steam."

> 
> :   -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?
> 
> Doesn't apply- these would not be fuel of choice.
> 

See above.  Personally, I'd _love_ to drive a fuel-cell car.  It's a
nice intermediate step between internal-combustion and RE cars, and
would allow any infrastructure necessary for servicing large inverters
and electric motors to grow.

> : Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
> : engine would? 
> 
> Fuel cell is NOT an engine- think of it more as a battery. May have
> noxious chemicals inside which may/may not be vented but generally
> no 'emissions' as such. I would think that the dominant environmental
> problem would be the manufacture/ handling/ disposal of the 'fuel'.
>  

Nope, a fuel cell is NOT an engine, but it DOES have emissions from the
chemical reaction.  Definitely water, potentially CO2, probably no
problems with NOx.  Even at 40% efficiency though, the car would be a
winner.  (I'm assuming 80% efficiency for the motor and inverter each,
so you might get a total efficiency of around 20% -- still a lot better
than a gasoline engine.)

...the rest I'm not even remotely competent to comment on, except...

> : Where can I find out about this?
> 
> Do literature search- all kinds of work has been done with fuel cells.
> 
> Your local library would likely have books that cover this subject.

Good idea. ;-)

> 
> PS- better watch out for the self-appointed net watchdogs- fuel cells
>     wouldn't fit into their concept of politically-correct
>     'renewable' energy sources.
> 

Are the two nastiest words in the English language "advocate" and "ideologue?"
...and is it any coincidence that "ideologue" sounds so much like "idiot?"

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu

P.S.  Pardon the unintentionally nasty tone of this posting... I'm always
like this when I wake up...



From starbolt@clark.net Wed Aug 31 22:46:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1403 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!clark.net!starbolt
From: starbolt@clark.net
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Steve Roberts where are you.
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:38:49 GMT
Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <starbolt.28.2E64A409@clark.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: starbolt_ppp.clark.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Keywords: Solar power
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have heard a rumor that here is a fellow driving across the US in a solar 
powered vehicle, and posting a journal of his trip to the net. I think his 
name is Steve Roberts. I someone knows how to find him and or his journal 
could you let me know.

Thanks
Glenn
starbolt@clark.net


From Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1404 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n2330!f4!Darr.Hoag
From: Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org (Darr Hoag)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <55e_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 08:04:07 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Hideaway! - Tompkins MI USA -
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Greg Nudd
Status: O
X-Status: 

@19:46 on 08-21-94, Greg Nudd said (to All) this:
> Bear in mind, though, that you can minimize this risk by buying an
> efficient engine and keeping it well tuned. 

And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was originally developed/run 
with vegetable oil....  Between the Hearst empire with all those logs waiting 
to go to paper mills, and the petro-chemical companies that wanted to make 
plastics/fuel/etc. from crude oil, Hemp didn't stand a snowball's chance of 
staying legal in '37.

... Hemp paper saves trees! (or would, if it were legal!!)


From Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1405 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n397!f6!Elvis.Hargrove
From: Elvis.Hargrove@f6.n397.z1.fidonet.org (Elvis Hargrove)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
Message-ID: <57c_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 06:23:11 GMT
Organization: [Fido] BOO!  Board Of Occult, Rio Grande Valley Texas
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

-> Hey, my prime machine (and only !!! ) IS an old XT clone !!! I am
-> considering upgrading to a 286 though. But then, why change when this thing
-> does it's job amply well. (would like to get a bigger hd than 20 Meg, though
-> )

We do what we can with what we've got......
There are three 8088's still in use in this house, and I'm presently on an old
homemade A.T. with a 40 meg 65 Msec drive.
All this while the 486-40 hasn't been turned on in several weeks.....

I can only make these typos just SO fast.

I surely would like to put the whole darn computer collection on a PV supply
though.  We have NO shortage of sunlight, just of money for photocells.

^..^


From Ian.Smith@f431.n711.z3.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1406 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z3!n711!f431!Ian.Smith
From: Ian.Smith@f431.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Ian Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Flywheel Ev Prototyp
Message-ID: <58d_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 07:12:50 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Ansanet Development - Lismore, Far East Australia
Lines: 33
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Cygan
Status: O
X-Status: 

Quoting Tony Cygan to Randy Tolleson.

 >  -=> Quoting Randy Tolleson to Tony Cygan <=-

 > RT> The catch is in the precesion of the flywheel.  If a force
 > RT> is applied at 90 degrees to the axis of spin the flywheel
 > RT> will precess at 90 degree angle to the applied force.
[..]
 > RT> On a car the spin axis can only be designed to be
 > RT> perpendicular to one plane.  This means you can have a
 > RT> gyro flipping your car as you round a corner or climb a
 > RT> hill....take your pick.

 > Yea sounds right, but I would think they would take this
 > into consideration otherwise it would be a vertually
 > useless idea, good only for stationary power sources like
 > quick charge stations.

I've been wondering about bicycles / scooters myself.

 > I beleive that they are using counter rotating disks to
 > offset the gyro effect.

I've been wondering about this too.  Even with counter-rotating flywheels, it
seems you're still going to get some strange torques applied.  Presumably the
flywheels would spin in the horizontal plane, allowing free turning left or
right, and I guess there would be a leveling effect while travelling over bumpy
roads and so forth.

Anyone have any real information on how this is being done?  Also, on what mass
of flywheels are needed to store sufficient energy?  Any formulae?

Ian


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1407 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: huhh?
Message-ID: <594_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 03:13:17 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -- The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Brewster
Status: O
X-Status: 


  DB> From: dbrewste@netcom.com (Dick Brewster) Date: 21 Aug 94 19:57:56 GMT
  DB> 
  DB> Zachariah Czeck (Zachariah.Czeck@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
  DB> 
  DB> : TM>   I'm curious.  Are you one of those people who puts the plastic
  DB> : TM> "child protector" two-pronged caps into unused electrical
  DB> sockets : TM> in their home to keep the electrons from leaking out? : 
  DB> ++
  DB> 
  DB> : you are joking aren't you Tim? :  zachariahCzeck
  DB> 
  DB> Those covers help.  Without them one of my outlets lost 37 volts of
  DB> energy in a day.    Since my power company charges .09 per Watt that
  DB> can really add up. -- Dick Brewster                                   
  DB> dbrewste@netcom.com
 
Only 87 volts! Why, that musta been pretty hard on some of the ol' appliances
around the house!  ;^)


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1408 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE: HUHH?
Message-ID: <5a9_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 01:02:44 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dick Brewster
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > Those covers help.  Without them one of my outlets lost 37 volts of 
 > energy in a day.    Since my power company charges .09 per Watt that 
 > can  really add up.

Oh, jeeze, here we go again:
 
Dick, Dick, Dick: you have to get your units straight. It's not ".09 per Watt",
it's ".09/columb-joule".
 
Yer gonna get a lecture from good ol' whatzisname.
 
<<ROTFL>>


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1409 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE: JACK PUMPS
Message-ID: <5aa_9408311001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 01:06:52 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave,
 "Jack pumps" used to be very popular, in fact, one supplied the water for us
when I was a kid. (It was powered by a 115VAC motor, though) My father's dairy
also had a deep-well "jack pump" that pumped water from 300 feet as I
recollect; it had a fairly large motor on it, perhaps 2 or 3 HP or maybe more.
 
There's no good reason why one wouldn't work today, and it might even be
practical, but one of the newer submersible jobs is sure much easier to
install.


From muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com Wed Aug 31 22:47:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1410 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Diesel Pollution
Date: 31 Aug 1994 20:11:14 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 29
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

From:	ESDS01::"Darr.Hoag@f4.n2330.z1.fidonet.org" "Darr Hoag" 31-AUG-1994 14:09:14.53
To:	renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
CC:	
Subj:	Diesel pollution

@19:46 on 08-21-94, Greg Nudd said (to All) this:
> Bear in mind, though, that you can minimize this risk by buying an
> efficient engine and keeping it well tuned. 

And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was originally developed/run 
with vegetable oil....  Between the Hearst empire with all those logs waiting 
to go to paper mills, and the petro-chemical companies that wanted to make 
plastics/fuel/etc. from crude oil, Hemp didn't stand a snowball's chance of 
staying legal in '37.

Oh?

If memory serves, Diesel's original thinking was to use powdered coal for fuel. 
This didn't last long, but it is indeed possible to run a Diesel on solid fuels
and there's been work done on it over the years.

More to the point, I'n curious about the notion that veggie-based oils would be
less pollutting.  Are there data to support this?  Seems to me that Diesel
exhaust nasties are products of incomplete combustion--high molecular wt stuff
and finely divided solids.  Is the combustion chemistry of veggie-based
oils--to the extent one can generalize--more favorable in this regard?

Alan


From bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM Wed Aug 31 22:47:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1411 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM (Bruce A. Rawles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Date: 31 Aug 1994 20:13:29 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 54
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408311953.AA14732@empress.gvg.tek.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Does anyone know the efficiency of fuel cells?
>What can a fuel cell burn?
>  -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?
>Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
>engine would?  
>How big would a fuel cell have to be to power a car, or a home?
>Are there special operating conditions that would make it difficult
>to run a fuel cell in a car or home?
>
>Where can I find out about this?
>  
>I saw the posting on fuel cells in cars.  This seems like a good
>idea.  You could have an electric vehicle that stores it's energy
>in a form that is much more compact than a normal battery.  
>
>
>Ethan Petersen
>efpeters@mtu.edu

Check out back issues of _Home_Power_ magazine (an excellent
publication in many alternative energy areas). They are at:
Bx 520, Ashland, Oregon postal zone 97520  (916)475-0830 for
subscription & back issues; (916)475-3179 FAX or
(707)822-8640 (BBS)

Also, contact Roger Billings at:
Project Hydrogen, American Academy of Science,
TechCenter, Ste. 1000, 26900 E. Pink Hill Rd.
Independence, Missouri 64057-3284
(816) 229-3800

The Billings folks had a hydrogen powered car prototype at the
Solar Energy Expo & Rally (SEER) at Willits, Calif. a few years
ago (probably this year, too, but I didn't make it there this
summer).

Based on their prototype, I'd say forget dinosaur fumes and go
straight to the most plentiful element in the Universe, Hydrogen.

The titanium-metal-hydride tank they had in their prototype was
about 3' by 1' square (about 3 cu. ft.) with a range of 200-300
miles as I recall, the fuel cell itself was in the breadbox size
range (not much there when they lifted the hood! Best of all, when
you pressed down the (H2) gas pedal, that horribly toxic stuff
we call water came out the tailpipe! :-)

==================================================================
Bruce Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.tek.com) The paradigms I embrace 
"Nothing real can be threatened."      don't necessarily represent 
- ACIM                                 those of GVG or any others
==================================================================





From bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM Wed Aug 31 22:47:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1412 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM (Bruce A. Rawles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Date: 31 Aug 1994 20:56:19 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 46
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9408312030.AA14782@empress.gvg.tek.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

>@19:46 on 08-21-94, Greg Nudd said (to All) this:
>> Bear in mind, though, that you can minimize this risk by buying an
>> efficient engine and keeping it well tuned. 
>
>And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
>to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was originally developed/run 
>with vegetable oil....  Between the Hearst empire with all those logs waiting 
>to go to paper mills, and the petro-chemical companies that wanted to make 
>plastics/fuel/etc. from crude oil, Hemp didn't stand a snowball's chance of 
>staying legal in '37.
>
>... Hemp paper saves trees! (or would, if it were legal!!)

I heard an interesting discussion on the radio a few months ago by
a fellow who had been to Lake Baikal (spelling?) in Russia where
hemp was once grown before military involvement shifted agricultural
priorities. His suggestion was to grow the stuff there again, boosting
their economy, export to Mexico where a plant grows that can be used
as an environmentally sound glue (unlike the nasty stuff used in
wood-based plywood and particle board), boosting their economy and then
legally import into this country boosting our construction economy with
a stronger building material at 4 times the yield per acre. The only
"casualties" are those determined to deforest temperate rainforests in
this country. Sounded like a pretty interesting idea to me ... and great
way to use awful law (NAFTA) to best advantage; I find it amusing how
many emperors are naked! :-)

An article my wife found in Vegetarian Times (?) talked about how hemp
was promoted by George Washington as an ideal agricultural product,
comprised the fabric of a parachute that saved George Bush's life, and
Civil War history was "rewritten" in a museum somewhere to lie about
what soldiers uniforms were made out of so as not to "confuse" students.
I'm not an advocate of smoking the stuff (though tolerant of those who
do), but it sure seems like the time has come to save our forests AND our
economy by legalizing something far more innocuous than tobacco (which
I hold largely responsible for my fathers early demise, incidentally).



==================================================================
Bruce Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.tek.com) The paradigms I embrace 
"Nothing real can be threatened."      don't necessarily represent 
- ACIM                                 those of GVG or any others
==================================================================




From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Wed Aug 31 22:47:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1413 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CvEo21.Kut@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:22:48 GMT
References: <199408311405.IAA04470@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 66
Status: O
X-Status: 

Eric F. Richards (efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu) wrote:
: > Doesn't really 'burn' fuel as such. fuel cell is not too unlike
: > a battery- with a chemical reaction directly forming electricity.
: > 
: > Typical 'fuel' might be an aluminum plate. 

: Stan slipped here...  fuel cells typically are fed hydrogen and oxygen,
: producing electricity, heat, and water.

Umm- I guess this depends on your definition of 'typically', considering
that there aren't any commercial cars driving around with these beasts.

One of the most promising designs I have seen was an aluminum plate design,
which provides tremendous energy density. Of course not developed yet.

: > :   -Is it possible to run a fuel cell on gasoline, or natural gas?
: > 
: > Doesn't apply- these would not be fuel of choice.
: > 

: See above.  Personally, I'd _love_ to drive a fuel-cell car.  It's a
: nice intermediate step between internal-combustion and RE cars, and
: would allow any infrastructure necessary for servicing large inverters
: and electric motors to grow.

I agree- fuel cell might make a very nice car. But like many ideas it's going
to have to wait until a large company can make it economically feasible.
I say large company since no small group would possibly have the resources
to do so.


: > : Does a fuel cell have the same emissions problems as a normal
: > : engine would? 
: > 
: > Fuel cell is NOT an engine- think of it more as a battery. May have
: > noxious chemicals inside which may/may not be vented but generally
: > no 'emissions' as such. I would think that the dominant environmental
: > problem would be the manufacture/ handling/ disposal of the 'fuel'.
: >  

: Nope, a fuel cell is NOT an engine, but it DOES have emissions from the
: chemical reaction.  Definitely water, potentially CO2, probably no
: problems with NOx.  Even at 40% efficiency though, the car would be a
: winner.  (I'm assuming 80% efficiency for the motor and inverter each,
: so you might get a total efficiency of around 20% -- still a lot better
: than a gasoline engine.)

All depends of course on what sort of fuel is being used. Remember to figure
in the energy cost of the fuel in these sorts of calculations. Remember
that hydrogen/oxygen have to be obtained from somewhere- like from
cracking water.


: P.S.  Pardon the unintentionally nasty tone of this posting... I'm always
: like this when I wake up...

Didn't sound nasty to me! I consider good information welcome in any form.

I do have one question regarding your hydrogen fuel cell car, however.
And theat is how do you define 'efficiency' in this case. End product
is obvious- mechnical motion of the car- but where is the starting
condition for this calculation?

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From John.Hartman@f230.n231.z1.fidonet.org Wed Aug 31 22:47:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1414 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n231!f230!John.Hartman
From: John.Hartman@f230.n231.z1.fidonet.org (John Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <5b4_9408311604@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 17:53:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] ORDOVICIAN OOZE *From Whence We All Emerged*
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Datnoid@aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Where could one find plans for a solar fridge?  I camp out on the 
weekends at a low energy campground.  We are getting ready to put in a 
"cabin".  It will be a storage shed conversion and I use only one 18 
watt lightbulb at the present time.  If I can set up solar... hot dog!  
Of particular interest is a refrigerator and enough power to run a 
lightbulb, fan, a radio and a refrigerator.  This would be a good way 
to be an example for others in the camp to emulate.


From cinqmarr@vader.egr.uri.edu Thu Sep  1 03:01:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1415 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!boulder!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver.egr.uri.edu!vader!cinqmarr
From: cinqmarr@vader.egr.uri.edu (Robert Cinq-Mars)
Subject: Energy Loss
Sender: news@egr.uri.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Rhode Island / College of Engineering
Message-ID: <CvEw3D.Jyo@egr.uri.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 18:16:24 GMT
Lines: 3
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone know approximately what percentage of energy is
lost by putting the generator at the bottom of the mast on
a wind turbine as opposed to the top?


From mattern@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov Thu Sep  1 03:01:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1416 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!boulder!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!ariel.lerc.nasa.gov!mattern
From: mattern@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Duane Mattern (NYMA))
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Steve Roberts where are you.
Date: 31 Aug 1994 14:31 EDT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Lines: 13
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <31AUG199414311583@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>
References: <starbolt.28.2E64A409@clark.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ariel.lerc.nasa.gov
Keywords: Solar power
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <starbolt.28.2E64A409@clark.net>, starbolt@clark.net writes...
>I have heard a rumor that here is a fellow driving across the US in a solar 
>powered vehicle, and posting a journal of his trip to the net. I think his 
>name is Steve Roberts. I someone knows how to find him and or his journal 
>could you let me know.
>Thanks Glenn starbolt@clark.net

He use to monitor one of the bicycle newsgroups.  I've his
book and email address at home (not in front of me).  Drop me
a like and I'll look it up if you need it.

Duane	(mattern@mars.lerc.nasa.gov)



From stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com Thu Sep  1 21:31:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1417 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!srgenprp!stanb
From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Sender: news@srgenprp.sr.hp.com (News Administrator)
Message-ID: <CvF4oz.8GF@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 21:22:11 GMT
References: <9408311953.AA14732@empress.gvg.tek.com>
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9.2]
Lines: 11
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bruce A. Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM) wrote:
: Based on their prototype, I'd say forget dinosaur fumes and go
: straight to the most plentiful element in the Universe, Hydrogen.

Did their presentation include a means to get all that hydrogen
in the first place? Hydrogen is quite plentiful, but elemental
hydrogen is not exactly lying around ready to pump into your tank.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From mshadowfax@aol.com Thu Sep  1 21:31:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1418 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!boulder!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mshadowfax@aol.com (MShadowfax)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wind Power (Towers)
Date: 31 Aug 1994 17:47:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <342tor$c3h@search01.news.aol.com>
References: <JAC.76.012E1AB0@UNB.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

     Well - I come back again to say thanx to all who are putting their
ideas out for me (and others) to see. I just want to remind all concerned
that the unit _I_ am considering is Southwest Windpower's Air 303 which
weighs in at a whopping 11lbs/5kg and is designed to be maintenance-free
and mount on a sch.40 fence pipe in a short-tower or rooftop installation.
Inasmuch as I have no immediate plans for a bigger unit (my prime power
source is solar and I generate plenty now and more is on the way) I
appreciate the info but have no great use for it, although I'm sure others
do.
     Thanx again to everyone for their input - it is greatly appreciated.

Shadowfax




From bobhilt@eskimo.com Thu Sep  1 21:31:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1419 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!gopher.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!bobhilt
From: bobhilt@eskimo.com (Bob Hiltner)
Subject: Re: Boats capturing energy...
Message-ID: <CvEwGL.K0v@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <CvBEDK.4oM@eskimo.com> <33vpji$nov@sundog.tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 18:24:20 GMT
Lines: 84
Status: O
X-Status: 

Harry H Conover (conover@max.tiac.net) wrote:
: Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote:
: : I was sitting around the table saturday discussing an idea I've had for 
: : some time, which I've never been able to visualize as an actual device 
: : until now.  What I see is that on sailboats, there is an incredible 
: : amount of force from the sail, none of which is used to generate 
: : electrical power for the boat.  First I thought of small wind generators, 
: : but don't think that really captures any of the force.  Then i came to 
: : two ideas which I think might have merit.

: : One: utilize the boats pitching motion and weight to drive a whale-tail 
: : ratchet powered generator.  This would rely on the wave motion of the 
: : boat to flip the tail up and down (the most hydro-dynamic shape would be 
: : optimal).  In other words, the boat pitching up and down through a (say) 10 
: : degree arc would give the whale 10 degrees of arc to ratchet back and 
: : forth.  The resistance to this force would be regenerative to the battery 
: : system.  The force is essentially lost otherwise, I believe 
: : (vibration/heat).  This is not like a dragged water-powered generator 
: : which would slow the boat.  It is more akin to capturing some of the 
: : "spring" effect of the boats bouyancy in the water (i.e., it doesn't rely 
: : on friction/drag).   Does anyone see a problem with this type of device?

: Sure, the problem is one of violating the conservation of energy.  In
: doing this, you are taking energy away from the overall wind-boat-water
: dynamic system.  Since the only source of energy here is the wind,
: energy absorbed from the dynamic equilibrium would effectively slow
: the ship (probably not by much, though).  Since sailboats are already
: incredibly slow beasts, sailors are critical about any losses in
: forward speed.

My feeling is that this is ok for two reasons.  First, you would need to 
take relatively negligible energy from the system to give your electrics 
a pretty good charge, so it wouldn't be a significant drain on the 
"system's" energy.  Second, I believe the energy I'm talking about is 
eventually moving grains of sand on a beach somewhere--i.e., it is 
converted to waves by the displacement of water by the hull.  I don't 
believe we're talking about force that particularly helps the forward 
motion of the boat.

: Another factor here is the pitching action of the sailboat itself,
: the dynamics of which are critical to safety and stability in high
: seas.  Sailboat hulls are carefully designed and tuned to maintain
: stability, under fairly large angles of heel.  (Sailboats aren't
: vertical when under sail.)  The boat pitches to accomodate ocean
: swell effects.  If you dampen the hull reaction to the 
: forces of the water, you can end up being swamped by a following
: sea, or porpoise into an on-coming swell, effectively becoming
: a submarine very quickly.

Well, yes, this would dampen the hull action.  But my guess is that it 
would be negligible for the amount of power required, and it would 
probably be trivial to set up the system so it just follows in 'neutral' 
when the seas get too gnarly (turn the thing off or remove it from the 
water...)

: No, no, no.....    ;-)

: Sheets determine sail trim, and sail trim is **very** critical, where
: even a small change can halve the speed of the ship.

Yah, well I know the trim idea is critical, so I probably should have 
junked this idea before I even had it :-)  The thing is, there is  SO 
MUCH power in this system, and the electrics use SO LITTLE, that there 
should be something that can convert a small fraction of the power 
without significant negative impact to the speed of the boat.

: : So.  Comments please.  My feeling is that the whale-tail is a better 
: : idea, and it sounds feasible to me.

: Keep on thinking about these things, because you're raising some
: interesting ideas.  There are probably enough sailors around here 
: to critique them vis-a-vis possible interaction with sailing
: principles.

:                                    Harry C.

Thanks Harry.  Just another "dime-a-dozen" idea....  I am hoping one of 
these will turn into the "why didn't I think of that" type of simple but 
very effective inventions.

--
Bob Hiltner <bobhilt@eskimo.com>
"It is not enough to do well (and I hope you do), you must also do good" 
                                                                   ^^^^


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Thu Sep  1 21:31:09 EDT 1994
Article: 1420 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Date: 1 Sep 1994 16:25:34 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 37
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199409011558.KAA24286@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 30 Aug 94 17:53:00 GMT John.Hartman@f230.n231.z1.fidonet.org (John
Hartman) wrote:

>Where could one find plans for a solar fridge?  I camp out on the 
>weekends at a low energy campground.  We are getting ready to put in a 
>"cabin".  It will be a storage shed conversion and I use only one 18 
>watt lightbulb at the present time.  If I can set up solar... hot dog!  
>Of particular interest is a refrigerator and enough power to run a 
>lightbulb, fan, a radio and a refrigerator.  This would be a good way 
>to be an example for others in the camp to emulate.

In 1992 my roommate and I purchased a 36 quart Igloo thermoelectric cooler
(~$90) to use with my Photovoltaic system and to take camping.  The unit
drew almost 50W (12VDC @ 4A).  The strange, wasteful cycling of the
thermostat began to annoy me, so we tore out the crappy thermostat and
built our own thermostat with an LCD display from Radio Shack and DigiKey
parts.  Also, we covered the whole unit (except the heat sink, kept
upwards) with four inches of scrap styrofoam.

In 80oF heat the unit ran nearly 24 hours a day to maintain an interior
temperature of 45oF.  This load consumed almost all of our PV panel energy
production.  This was bad because this energy was previously dedicated to
the stereo and all of the lights in our apartment.  Needless to say, I
don't use it anymore.  The fridge lies in storage for the time being, in my
basement.  Please see Home Power #37 "PV in the City" for a complete
description of our original PV/bike gen. system.

If you go this path I recommend not using PVs to power the fridge (unless
you have a dedicated set of Carrizo Gold Quadlams or the like....) but
instead to take the unit camping at an electric site (defeats the purpose).
 Or you could not bother with all of the above and just keep buying ice...

wishing you luck,

Ben Fiore
befiore@students.wisc.edu



From Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1421 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n343!f70!Ken.Finney
From: Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <225_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 16:30:00 GMT
Organization: Psychotronic BBS
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Tony Weeks
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding wiring for 12 volts, 12 volts requires A LOT of current.
Rather than use phone jacks, the recommended alternative is the 240 V
outlets available,  They have a different orientation than 120 volt
receptacles, so there is no danger of misconnection, they are UL listed, they
can handle significant amounts of current, and they fit
the standard sized boxes.
Reqarding storing ice by covering it with sawdust, this was THE 
preferred way to store in for (literally) thousands of years.  It
was not just discovered during the depression.  The buildings were
called, funny enough, "ice houses".


From Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1422 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f525!p3!Ian.Woofenden
From: Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <22b_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 02:25:43 GMT
Organization: [Fido] A Solar and Wind Powered Point on Earth
Lines: 34
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gary Pagac
Status: O
X-Status: 

On (26 Aug 94) Gary Pagac wrote to Tony Weeks...

 TW> I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd
 TW> be no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a 120
 TW> volt circuit. 

 GP> I wouldn't do that for safety purposes. Those plugs and jacks
 GP> are intended for low current audio, and would not last long
 GP> for many 12 volt applications. 

 GP> I'd use some plugs and jacks more intended for the job -- go
 GP> to a Trailer Supply House and get the right stuff. 

I agree with the first part, but I'm not aware that RV suppliers
have anything that is all that miraculous. Last I knew they were
using the cigarette plug type receptacle, which is not all that
great. Is there something new?

When we wired, we decided to go with an obscure 220 plug, and we
wired 24 volts to one prong, 12 to the other and used a common
neutral. Works great, especially if you wire everything correctly
the first time <g>. The plugs are skookum, though they are also
pricey and a bit hard to find. But you can never plug the wrong
thing into it, unless your house guests bring along their dryer <g>.

 GP> * OFFLINE 1.56 * SpokAne, The Apple Maggot Quarantine Area! 

Naw, we've got that over on this side of the mountains too...

Ian



... Redundancy - An airbag in  a politician's car.


From ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1423 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n101!f245!ARTHUR.TORREY
From: ARTHUR.TORREY@f245.n101.z1.fidonet.org (ARTHUR TORREY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <22c_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Aug 94 01:35:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Silver Mage's Guild BBS (CAW) Waltham, MA
Lines: 52
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: WILL FIRSTBROOK
Status: O
X-Status: 


 -=> Lo; and Will Firstbrook pronounced unto All about 12 Volt Wiring<=-

 WF> Hi, 

 WF> I have a friend who is building a cabin/house on a 160 acre lot on the
 WF> side of a large hill (mountain?). There is no way he will be on the
 WF> "grid" due to costs. He is wiring the house for 120v and will be
 WF> getting some solar panels. 

 WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?

 WF> He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side
 WF> of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water
 WF> inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice
 WF> with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat
 WF> next winter. Has anyone tried this?

 1. It would probably do fine in theory as a REFRIGERATOR, but not as a 
FREEZER...  Ice freezes, and will stay at about 32 deg. F....  Its surface
would probably cool the surroundings down to around 35-40 degrees, prefect 
for refirgeration, but not for freezing...  The ice itself would be at 32 deg.
and might freeze something embedded in it, but this is NOT adequate for long
term storage...  Long term storage (according to the health dept. type folks)
should be around 0 deg. F...  Of course since a freezer is basically a heat 
pump, putting a freezer in the ice room would probably result in far lower 
energy consumption, albeit at a cost of faster melting of the ice....

 2. The concept is fine (and indeed back in the "bad old days" when we had 
REAL "Ice boxes", Icemen, etc... something like this WAS used...) but I suspect
it may need a bit of work...

 A. The ground below the frostline stays well ABOVE freezing ALL the time, and 
the ground above the frostline goes above freezing in the summer... (I am 
assuming that you aren't talking about a construction site where permafrost is
a factor...)  He may find it neccessary to insulate the walls of the structure 
as well or better from contact with the ground as if he was building it
outside.

 B. In light of "A" above, merely spraying water inside the room would NOT 
produce ice...  It would be necessary to produce the ice OUTSIDE the room, and
move it inside...  (this may be more work than it is worth....)

 It is my understanding that when Ice was the means of refrigeration, the Ice 
was "produced" by either cutting it from a lake or other body of water, or 
allowing molds full of water to freeze, then moving it into very well insulated
ABOVE GROUND buildings for storage...  This was quite labour intensive (Ice is 
HEAVY in large quantity) but at the time it was the only game in time...

 ART
... America--love it or leave it? No--America, CHANGE it or LOSE it!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1424 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <23e_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 03:32:55 GMT
Organization: [Fido] -- The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 27Aug94, Gale barked at Dave...

  DH> My dad has been howling all week that we need a "jack pump" for our
  DH> well.  He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to
  DH> draw up 10+ gallons/min from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure. 
  DH> Does anyone have any experience with these things?  I'm not even sure
  DH> I know what one is. A 12/24 volt pump would be great (I've just about
  DH> had it with carting the generator to the pumphouse every morning!). 
  DH> :^)
  DH> 
  GB> What are you pumping with now? A 24 volt system should be able to do
  GB> anything a 110/220 system can. There are submersible 24 volt pumps to
  GB> be had and 24 volt motors to be had for other systems. If what you
  GB> call a "jack pump" is the same as what we call a pump jack, it is
  GB> simply a motor driven contraption that raises and lowers a suction rod
  GB> with a piston at the end. In my area these are usualy run with a
  GB> gasoline 3.5-5 hp motor from Messr's Brigs and Stratton. Electric is
  GB> common but the cost of running wire to a pasture well is often
  GB> prohibitive.

We have a submersible now.  Dad wants to mount the motor at the top of the well
and the rod down the casing to, say, 450 ft., with the suction rod working the
pump at the bottom.  Last night he was talking about putting check valves in
the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up every 30 ft or so to ease in the drawing up of
the water such a great distance.  Dad says this is easier and mechanically more
sound that running all that DC wiring (450 ft of it) down the well and losing
voltage.  Me, I'm not so sure.  Wiring seems more efficient than a physical,
*moving* rod.  What do you think?

DH


From Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:14 EDT 1994
Article: 1425 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n346!f35!Gary.Pagac
From: Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Pagac)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Drinking water storage i
Message-ID: <250_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 02:28:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Moonflower
Lines: 32
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV 
 On 08-22-94 droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV wrote to All... 
 d >       
 d >      2.  I have run the supply pipe from the deep well to the bottom 
 d > of the  
 d >      water tank and have put a U-turn at the end of the pipe so that 
 d > the  
 d >      water stream shoots back up the tank rather than stirring up the 
 d > mud  
 d >      on the bottom.  Am I contaminating my well by having the water 
 d > from  
 d >      the tank always in direct contact with the supply water to the 
 d > well?   
 d >      How much should I worry about the odd bug that falls in? 
 
  That's a unique situation you have there!  While i don't know about 
the use of which plastic is best for a tank, you may want to devote 
more thought to the purity of your well.   
  Where do the bugs get in at?  The tank or the well?  Your well should 
be capped to prevent any foreign matter from entering.  If you do not  
already have a check-valve between the tank and the well, i'd make  
installing one first order.  The idea is to prevent potentially old water 
from getting back into your well.  How often does the contents of your  
tank get used up?  I'd imagine with it being 200 gallons, the water doesn't 
sit in there for long.  If the tank is at least a semi-clear plastic, keep  
it away from sunshine -- that causes algae, and that's the beginning of  
the food chain. 
  Buy a simple water testing kit.  You needn't get fancy, something like 
$20.00 should get you going.   
 
 --- 
 * OFFLINE 1.56 * SpokAne, The Apple Maggot Quarantine Area! 


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Thu Sep  1 21:31:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1426 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: DRINKING WATER STORAGE IN PE
Message-ID: <25d_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 00:31:14 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Droeges@mail.fws.gov
Status: O
X-Status: 


 >   Is there bad plastic?  Am I killing my family  by 
 >      making them drink this water?  Should I get the water tested?  

Here's how you solve your problem: Install a small metal tank above the plastic
tank, and have the well pump discharge into it, using an air gap (siphon break)
to prevent water being siphoned back to your well. Have an overflow from the
metal tank to the plastic one. Draw your drinking water from the metal tank,
everything else from the other. I think I'd consider a chlorinator for the
drinking water, unless you're SURE that no contaminants can get into it.

 >  Am I contaminating my well by having the water from 
 >  the tank always in direct contact with the supply water to the  well?  

See above: this is a no-no.

 >      How much should I worry about the odd bug that falls in?

If you pipe things as I've described, your only worry would be the amount of
water that the bug drinks. He shouldn't be able to fall in the metal tank.


From efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu Thu Sep  1 21:31:19 EDT 1994
Article: 1427 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells?
Date: 1 Sep 1994 19:33:08 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 78
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199409011903.NAA07879@tigger.cs.colorado.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof) wrote:
> Eric F. Richards (efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu) wrote:
> : > Doesn't really 'burn' fuel as such. fuel cell is not too unlike
> : > a battery- with a chemical reaction directly forming electricity.
> : > 
> : > Typical 'fuel' might be an aluminum plate. 
> 
> : Stan slipped here...  fuel cells typically are fed hydrogen and oxygen,
> : producing electricity, heat, and water.
> 
> Umm- I guess this depends on your definition of 'typically', considering
> that there aren't any commercial cars driving around with these beasts.
> 

Okay... to rephrase...  From _my_ reading of various mags, fuel cells have
taken hydrogen and oxygen as fuel, although some types can take fossil
fuel and air.

The Apollo craft and the shuttlecraft use(d) fuel cells being fed H2 and O2.

The five types described in Home Power 35 (phosphoric acid, alkaline,
molten carbonate, solid oxide, and proton exchange membrane fuel cells) take
H2 and O2.

> One of the most promising designs I have seen was an aluminum plate design,
> which provides tremendous energy density. Of course not developed yet.
> 

Again, from _my_ reading of stuff, this is the first one I've heard of that
took "solid" fuel.

> : Nope, a fuel cell is NOT an engine, but it DOES have emissions from the
> : chemical reaction.  Definitely water, potentially CO2, probably no
> : problems with NOx.  Even at 40% efficiency though, the car would be a
> : winner.  (I'm assuming 80% efficiency for the motor and inverter each,
> : so you might get a total efficiency of around 20% -- still a lot better
> : than a gasoline engine.)
> 
> All depends of course on what sort of fuel is being used. Remember to figure
> in the energy cost of the fuel in these sorts of calculations. Remember
> that hydrogen/oxygen have to be obtained from somewhere- like from
> cracking water.
> 

In the above paragraph, as in most of the original posting, I was assuming
the use of PAFCs being fed fossil fuels.  Not truely RE, but a good step
in the right direction.  The efficiency figure of 40% was given, assuming
that fossil fuels -- "natural gas, methanol, or light distillates" -- were
being fed to "reformers" before being fed to the fuel cell itself.

> I do have one question regarding your hydrogen fuel cell car, however.
> And theat is how do you define 'efficiency' in this case. End product
> is obvious- mechnical motion of the car- but where is the starting
> condition for this calculation?

I was comparing the cars only, not the fuel processing cost.  The reason
for this was that the previous posting discussed the idea of a fuel cell
being run on fossil fuel -- thus, the infrastructure for producing that
fuel is the same for either scenereo.

I still feel this is a win:  I suspect that your Family Truckster would
use its fuel more efficiently if it were fed natural gas to a PAFC
powering an electric drive train, as compared to that same Truckster
being fed natural gas to an internal combustion engine.  (Now, could that
PAFC be fed gasoline successfully?  I dunno.  Does gas count as a "light
distillate?")

Please, before purists start screaming about this article being non-RE,
remember that any developments along this line would also be useful
towards hydrogen or alcohol powered transportation.  The question of
producing hydrogen or alcohol on RE becomes an excercise for the
reader. :-)

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu



From gnudd@bga.com Thu Sep  1 21:31:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1428 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!bga.com!nobody
From: gnudd@bga.com (Greg Nudd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel Pollution
Date: 1 Sep 1994 12:30:28 -0500
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <34533k$hfb@vern.bga.com>
References: <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vern.bga.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com>,
ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468 <muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com> wrote:
>And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
>
>Oh?
>
>If memory serves, Diesel's original thinking was to use powdered coal for fuel. 
>This didn't last long, but it is indeed possible to run a Diesel on solid fuels
>and there's been work done on it over the years.
>
>More to the point, I'n curious about the notion that veggie-based oils would be
>less pollutting.  Are there data to support this?  Seems to me that Diesel
>exhaust nasties are products of incomplete combustion--high molecular wt stuff
>and finely divided solids.  Is the combustion chemistry of veggie-based
>oils--to the extent one can generalize--more favorable in this regard?
>
>Alan

I share that uncertainty. You are indeed correct that the major toxic
pollutants from diesel combustion are products of incomplete combustion.
Using vegetable oil may increase or decrease these emissions. You'd have
to test it and see. Vegetable oil will probably eliminate sulfur and
metal emissions, however.

Since the toxic PICs adhere to the particulate matter in the exhaust, if
a vegetable oil fired machine had less visible emissions, you'd be
pretty safe in assuming that it had lower toxic emissions.


From andy.shelton@ahabbs.com Thu Sep  1 21:31:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1429 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!xnet!quake.xnet.com!sid!andy.shelton
From: andy.shelton@ahabbs.com (Andy Shelton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 13:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <940901063022238@ahabbs.com>
Organization: AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
Distribution: world
Lines: 20   
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: Andy.Shelton@f25.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Andy Shelton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Date: 27 Aug 94 13:00:27 GMT
Message-ID: <e44_9408292000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Organization: [Fido] Howard's Notebook

->  WF> My question is should he also wire the house for 12v?
->
->         I would and I'd use 1/4" phone plugs for 12 volt then there'd
->         no worries about plugging a 12 volt appliance into a 120 volt
->         circuit.
->Rather than 12 v I would recommend a 24v system 3wire, much as a
120/240 volt AC system is wired... 24v chargers are readily available
(try golf cart or fork truck sources)
The reasons are many... you can get 2 voltages that way.. run any
12v ya like but also take advantage of 24v on higher power loads.
there is less voltage drop at 24v etc.
Of course ya can wire solar panels for any voltage
---


From howard.smith@ahabbs.com Thu Sep  1 21:32:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1430 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!olivea!uunet!xnet!quake.xnet.com!sid!howard.smith
From: howard.smith@ahabbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject:  HomePower Mag and schools
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 02:16:00 GMT
Message-ID: <940901063022239@ahabbs.com>
Organization: AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
Distribution: world
Lines: 23   
Status: O
X-Status: 


Greetings, I'd like to suggest to all subscribers of HomePower magazine,
that if they are inclined to dispose of their old issues, that they
contribute them to their local junior high school shop teacher for use
by his students. I approached the shop teacher of the school my daughter
attended about contributing a subscription to the school and found that
he was already a very enthusiastic subscriber himself, but did not want
to share his copies with his students because he might not get them back
and he had too many students interested.

Seems like an excellent way to recycle the mags and also spread the
word.

You might also consider contributing a subscription to their library.

Howard Smith, sysop
Solar Hydrogen BBS  Palo Alto, CA  (415)494-3116  A node on the H2!net
1200-14,400 baud (V.32bis V.42bis)  8N1  24 hrs
There is a hydrogen fuel cell powered, electric vehicle in your future.
Hydrogen - the best and safest fuel!
Also try the H2!net hub, AHA Tempe BBS (602)894-8403
---
 þ QMPro 1.51 þ Solar Hydrogen BBS     Palo Alto, CA     (415)494-3116


From Phil.Wagner@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1431 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Phil.Wagner
From: Phil.Wagner@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Phil Wagner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: telephone
Message-ID: <432_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 06:11:12 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods -Redwood Network-
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Gale Barrows
Status: O
X-Status: 

GB> MS>Gale; check out the cordless phone; many get phone
GB> MS>installed to a box or & out by the road and improve the
GB> MS>antenna system to get a longer range.  Local guy here sells
GB> MS>the whole setup; Nat Childs , Childs Play, 665 Redwood Dr.,
GB> MS>Garberville, CA, 95542 , 707-923-2934.
GB> 
GB> If we are talking about my query on alternate phone hookups, a coprdless
GB> phone would have to have quite a range. The location in question is 3
GB> miles from thew nearest line !!!

...sorry to butt in here, but Malcolm is right. This phone can easily go 3 
miles provided there is no DIRT in the way. Do you have line of sight to a 
place where a phone CAN be installed? This phone system runs roughly $1300.00
but depends on your needs. I recommend you call Nat Childs as Malcolm did.
(Likely I will be the one answering the phone)


From Anton.Simmons@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1432 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Anton.Simmons
From: Anton.Simmons@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re:Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Message-ID: <439_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 16:21:07 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Date: 23 Aug 94 11:21:07 GMT

Being fairly new to this list, and communicating from the UK, I am not sure
what the situation is in the US, but I get the feeling that there are a lot of
selfish (and childish) people out there.  The AE list is far more 'civilised'
in
the opinions expressed, than this RE list.  Come on you lot, this is not the
playground (or maybe it is), lets have meaningful discussion and exchange
of useful information about renewable energy and the ways that it can be
used to improve the lot of (all) humanity and the planet generally.  Naive I
know, but one can but dream.
Another thought, I believe that all personal transport use should be taxed. 
No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
road.  Here in the UK we are going full speed ahead towards covering the
country with concrete and tarmac, and reducing our cities to polluted car
parks/ race tracks, while removing the few remaining bits of (semi) wild
flora and fauna.  Where will it end ?  Personal freedom yes, but at what
cost to the freedom of others to breathe, to walk, to cycle, etc.  You have
the advantage in the US of having a lot more space to play with (to pollute
?), but don't follow our bad example, please.
Anton.


From Steen.H.Hviid@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1433 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Steen.H.Hviid
From: Steen.H.Hviid@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Steen H Hviid)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Message-ID: <43a_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 17:06:38 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]The Ohio State University
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: shviid@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steen H Hviid)
Date: 23 Aug 94 12:06:38 GMT

I don't think it is realistic to use a woodstove to generate heat for 
electricity. You will need higher temperatures to create the steam efficiently 
to drive a turbine, which also is expensive. Try looking into a small solar 
panel, Real Goods sell several solar chargers - I have their 1.5 watt module 
which works very well for D cell batteries.

Steen


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1434 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re:Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Message-ID: <43b_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 19:46:17 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 23 Aug 94 14:46:17 GMT

Now that oppressive taxation has run your country into the ground you
want to come over here and advocate for it being imposed on us ?
YIKES !  Don't get me wrong, I love the UK, I worked over there for
a while - but please - keep your taxes to yourself !  Not intended
as a flame - just my point of view :).

rwizard


From Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1435 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Stan.Bischof
From: Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Stan Bischof)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Message-ID: <43c_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 20:41:40 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
Lines: 48
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Date: 23 Aug 94 15:41:40 GMT

Anton Simmons (A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk) wrote:
: Another thought, I believe that all personal transport use should be taxed. 

  Well let's see. Toll roads, bridge tools, gas taxes, registration
'fees', license 'fees', etc. Over here in the states this one is 
covered pretty well.

 Brings to mind a little anecdote of local significance- there's a 
fair transit system here that reduces some of the commute traffic and
of course is supported largely by the above sort of taxes.  A few years
ago the directors decided to try and increase ridership so they lowered
fares. Worked great. Ridership soared, traffic was measurably down.
Ooops- too many people using mass transit so tax revenues down. Can't
have that! Raise fares back up to higher than original. Problem solved.

: No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
: people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
                      ^^^^^^^^^^

Wow. You must have some REALLY hot cars over there! 

  Here in the UK we are going full speed ahead towards covering the
: country with concrete and tarmac, and reducing our cities to polluted car
: parks/ race tracks, while removing the few remaining bits of (semi) wild
: flora and fauna.  Where will it end ?  Personal freedom yes, but at what
: cost to the freedom of others to breathe, to walk, to cycle, etc.  You have
: the advantage in the US of having a lot more space to play with (to pollute
: ?), but don't follow our bad example, please.
: Anton.

Quess we can assume that you don't own/use a car ??

Seriously though, I agree- urban sprawl is something to be carefully
watched, as anyone who has been near any large city can attest.

Has England implemented any sort of smog controls yet? I was over there
some years ago and the autos were horrible- clouds of smoke- like a 
bunch of 50's relics not terribly tuned up. London was a beautiful city
but I cam home covered in soot/smoke/?? every evening.

How are transit fares there determined? How are the transit systems
supported?
--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1436 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jack.Coats
From: Jack.Coats@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jack Coats)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: milk jug salvage
Message-ID: <43d_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 22:44:44 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]Amoco Corportation
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jocoats@amoco.com (Jack Coats)
Date: 23 Aug 94 17:44:44 GMT

In article <19f_9408231004@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Ken.Finney@f70.n343.z1.fidonet.org (Ken Finney) writes:
>>Home Shop Machinist magazine had a series of articles a year or two
>>ago on making your own plastic injection machine.

does anyone know the address of Home Shop Machinist magazine?


---
#include(standard-disclaimer.h);
E-mail: jocoats@amoco.com   Fax: 713/366-7570   Voice: 713/366-7120
Personal: 73670.2476@compuserve.com -or- jcoats@hounix.org


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Fri Sep  2 13:39:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1437 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fridge Gadget
Message-ID: <43e_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 23:13:38 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 9
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 23 Aug 94 18:13:38 GMT

I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

rwizard


From befiore@students.wisc.edu Sun Sep  4 00:55:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1438 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternative solar cell technology...
Date: 2 Sep 1994 18:15:04 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 36
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199409021750.MAA10657@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

In late 1991, I wrote to Advanced Research Development, Inc. to obtain
further information about an exciting new photovoltaic technology I read
about in "Solar Today" magazine.  The packet I received contained the
following:

o stock (OTC) order form

o detailed technical article from the Planetary Association for Clean Energy
  of Ottawa/Hull, Canada.  

o 'Entrepreneur Profile' article from "Taipan" magazine, November 1990

o press release announcing a new contract between ARD and the Electric Power
  Research Institute

o short article from Business Week, 8/12/91 entitled "Cheap Solar Power: Has the
  Dream Come True?"

o May 1935 Scientific American article describing the inventor's
developments in film
  technology

If I am convinced that there is enough interest in this topic I will be
happy to continue posting.  Short of that, try sending for the packet.

Ben Fiore
befiore@students.wisc.edu


access: Advanced Research Development, Inc.
        359R Main Street
        Athol, MA 01331
        TEL.:(508) 249-4696
        FAX: (508) 249-2134




From befiore@students.wisc.edu Sun Sep  4 00:55:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1439 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: befiore@students.wisc.edu (Benjamin E. Fiore)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: NEWS:energy conserv. in Belarus
Date: 2 Sep 1994 19:25:04 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 18
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199409021845.NAA11700@audumla.students.wisc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

this news clip c/o:

Article 299 (7 more) in misc.news.east-europe.rferl (moderated):
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:36:19 +0100

EBRD APPROVES ENERGY CONSERVATION PROJECTS IN BELARUS. The
European Bank for Reconstruction and Development has agreed to
finance energy conservation projects in Belarus, Belarusian
Television reported on 30 August. Belarus is in the midst of an
energy crisis because it cannot afford to pay for its gas and oil
supplies. However, as much as 30-35% of these resources are wasted
since enterprises are not fuel efficient and no conservation
measures have been introduced. Conservation plans are to be drawn
up and sent to the bank's headquarters in London for approval. It
is hoped that credits for the projects will be granted by next
spring.  Ustina Markus, RFE/RL, Inc.




From Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:55:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1440 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-7!Dave.Willey
From: Dave.Willey@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Dave Willey)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <657_9409021043@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 28 Aug 94 15:41:14 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Sonoma Online, HOMEPOWR Echo (707)545-0746-HST\V32b
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: David Dix
Status: O
X-Status: 

>From:    David Dix
>To:      Lou Schneider                      Msg #500, Aug-23-94 21:26:10
>Subject: Re: COMPUTER CONVERSION
 
>....  And  a  computer  with  a rectifier and filter capacitor psu would
>really (not!) enjoy a 240VAC square wave supply.
 
When  I  was  in  high school, there was an old gent a lot of us students
knew who was convinced that he could filter the  high  amperage  modified
square wave output of a home brew inverter to a more purer sine wave type
of signal using lots of paper caps.  We all  lovingly  knew  him  as  the
father of the confetti generator...(g)
 
Dave Willey


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:55:55 EDT 1994
Article: 1441 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n147!f34!p13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: refrigerators - chest style?
Message-ID: <687_9409021043@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 00:09:38 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 17
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: John Hartman
Status: O
X-Status: 


 JH> Where could one find plans for a solar fridge?  I camp out
 JH> on the weekends at a low energy campground.  We are
 JH> getting ready to put in a "cabin".  It will be a storage
 JH> shed conversion and I use only one 18 watt lightbulb at
 JH> the present time.  If I can set up solar... hot dog!  Of
 JH> particular interest is a refrigerator and enough power to
 JH> run a lightbulb, fan, a radio and a refrigerator.  This
 JH> would be a good way to be an example for others in the camp to emulate.

John, check out the refrigerators used in motor homes and travel trailers. 
Most of them have a "3 way" power supply - that is you can use them on 12vdc,
110vac or propane.  They use the ammonia absorption cycle and all the power
does is to supply a small amount of heat.  One of them should be ideal for a
solar application set up for 12vdc.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:55:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1442 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n105!f290!p35!Dave.Hassler
From: Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE: JACK PUMPS
Message-ID: <688_9409021043@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 02:41:41 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Black Stratocaster -- PDX, USA
Lines: 16
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jim Dunmyer
Status: O
X-Status: 


  JD> Dave, "Jack pumps" used to be very popular, in fact, one supplied the
  JD> water for us when I was a kid. (It was powered by a 115VAC motor,
  JD> though) My father's dairy also had a deep-well "jack pump" that pumped
  JD> water from 300 feet as I recollect; it had a fairly large motor on it,
  JD> perhaps 2 or 3 HP or maybe more.
  JD> 
  JD> There's no good reason why one wouldn't work today, and it might even
  JD> be practical, but one of the newer submersible jobs is sure much
  JD> easier to install.

Jim, I'm in agreement with you.  One concern is the loss of voltage in running
a line down 450+ feet of well.  We want to go PV on this one; is this a
significant concern?

DH


From Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:55:56 EDT 1994
Article: 1443 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n346!f35!Gary.Pagac
From: Gary.Pagac@f35.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Pagac)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12 Volt Wiring
Message-ID: <68c_9409021043@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 02:05:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Moonflower
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Ian Woofenden
Status: O
X-Status: 


 On 08-29-94 Ian Woofenden wrote to Gary Pagac... 
 IW>  
 IW> I agree with the first part, but I'm not aware that RV suppliers

 IW> have anything that is all that miraculous. Last I knew they were 
 IW> using the cigarette plug type receptacle, which is not all that 
 IW> great. Is there something new? 
 
   I really don't know.  I do know that lighter plugs are the pitts. 
I didn't have any particular recepticle in mind when i made that post. 
If a Trailer Supply place didn't have anything made for it, i'd be 
likely to use those two conductor plugs which you commonly find on.. 
..trailers.  You know, to hook up the lights.  Another possibility 
would be the two prong bananna plugs/jacks commonly used on better 
quality speakers. 
   Just looking at a 1/4 inch phone plug, it appears to be sufficient. 
But it's the contacts within the jack that are the problem.  While i 
do not know their exact amp or milliamp rating, i'm almost certain that 
if one were to run more than 1 or 2 amps thru it, the jack would die 
rather quickly. 
 
  --- 
 * OFFLINE 1.56 * Spokane, The 218th Most Livable City... 


From Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:55:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1444 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n106!f941!Terry.goode
From: Terry.goode@f941.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Terry goode)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fridge Gadget
Message-ID: <6ad_9409021043@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 01:14:16 GMT
Organization: [Fido] THE GOLDEN COCO'S OTHER COMPUTER
Lines: 8
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Randy K. Wilson
Status: O
X-Status: 

GREEN PLUGS, and yep got um both firdges and my welder(110vac) .
in reality i perchased these 3 and one of the new thermostats and a few of the
floresent bulbs,thermo controlled attic vent and with my a/c set to 78 deg my
lect bill dropped from $300-400 a month to about $150-200 a month with an
average out side temp of 95-110 deg(ah thats here in Houston Tx)or mabie the
power company just dropped my rate's
heheh ,got the green plugs at the local hardware store.
terry g.


From ems@cygnus.com Sun Sep  4 00:55:57 EDT 1994
Article: 1445 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.cygnus.com!ems
From: ems@cygnus.com (E. Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <CvJ4nE.12M@cygnus.com>
Sender: news@cygnus.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
Organization: Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA
References: <12e_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us> <gnudd-2708941227190001@edwin-b6.ip.realtime.net> <markdmcCvAJGt.7D4@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 01:11:38 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <markdmcCvAJGt.7D4@netcom.com> markdmc@netcom.com (Mark McWiggins) writes:
>I remember seeing references several years back to alternative
>and much cleaner fuels for diesel engines. One guy was running a
>diesel Rabbit on used cooking oil, as I recall. I don't know of any
>current research or details, though. Anybody?

I've run a Nissan Turbo Diesel in a Scout II truck on Soybean oil
(Alpha Beta brand Salad Oil).  It worked OK, but smoked an acrid white
smoke at low idle due to misfires.  A lower viscocity would help.

I mixed it 50/50 with kerosene and all was fine.

I've recently posted a summary of this to sci.energy along with some
of the other things you can run a Diesel on (natural gas, CO + H2 from
wood distillation, etc.).  If you can't find that post, I suppose I
could recreate the info...

-- 

E. Michael Smith
Manager of Stuff
Cygnus Support


From ems@cygnus.com Sun Sep  4 00:55:59 EDT 1994
Article: 1446 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!news.cygnus.com!ems
From: ems@cygnus.com (E. Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: generator efficiency diesel v propane....
Message-ID: <CvJ4tp.16z@cygnus.com>
Sender: news@cygnus.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
Organization: Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA
References: <71e_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 01:15:24 GMT
Lines: 22
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <71e_9408301030@psybbs.durham.nc.us> Ian.Woofenden@p3.f525.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Ian Woofenden) writes:
>On (20 Aug 94) ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366- wrote to All...
>
> AM> Do you want to live and/or work in the plume of toxic,
> AM> carcinogenic particulate that small diesels produce?
>
>No. But I'm wondering why you said "small diesels"? Are larger
>diesels, like those in busses, any better as far as how much
>pollution they produce?

It's as much the fuel as the engine...  And oh, BTW, you can run a
Diesel engine on Propane.  Recently discussed in sci.energy.  I've
done it.  Short form:  Use about 25% of full power setting on #2 Diesel,
then just fumigate (i.e. pipe it in straight) propane into the air intake
until the engine is at about 100% of normal power output.  It runs
much cleaner than #2 straight...

-- 

E. Michael Smith
Manager of Stuff
Cygnus Support


From alang@iconz.co.nz Sun Sep  4 00:56:00 EDT 1994
Article: 1447 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!waikato!auckland.ac.nz!status.gen.nz!iconz.co.nz!alang
From: alang@iconz.co.nz (Alan Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Date: 2 Sep 1994 00:17:08 GMT
Organization: Public Access Internet, Auckland New Zealand
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <345qu4$ehm@status>
References: <12d_9408271045@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: iconz.co.nz
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

: : -->ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
: : -->    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
: : -->    through use of a collector on top the mast.

This is the only bit of your message I got, so I might be totally off the 
track, but I think you were talking about a solar setup to charge the 
batteries on the boat. A complete setup of this type is commercially 
available in Austalia & New Zealand from Dick Smith Electronics. Also 
applicable for motor homes etc (so you can get up to 4 hoursper night of TV 
fix when out in the wops taking a break from civilisation i suppose...)
The setup costs a couple of hundred (US) bucks.

ps we have solar powered radio telephones along the highway for emergency 
use. No power or phone cables and no power charge. Is this used much in 
the U?S (Nevada perhaps?)

AlanG


From regant@aspen.ulowell.edu Sun Sep  4 00:56:01 EDT 1994
Article: 1448 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!ulowell!aspen.ulowell.edu!regant
From: regant@aspen.ulowell.edu
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Energy conversion
Date: 1 Sep 94 21:14:07 -0500
Organization: University of Massachusetts Lowell
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <1994Sep1.211407.1@aspen.ulowell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aspen.uml.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am a new reader to this news group.  I have seen that in recent enteries that 
some controversy has come about with respect to nuclear power.  I would like
to note that all forms of energy conversion have a direct link to one another.
One entry made reference to a plane Vs. a train.  To say that these
technologies are not related is not entirely correct.  if the engineers
developing train engines have a significant innovation that increases the range
and efficiency of the train, what is to say that these same changes or an
adaptation of the changes will not increase the range and the speed of the
plane?
Past entries have questioned the possibilities of using combustion water
heaters that have photovoltaic cells incorporated into the system to provide
electricity to run pumps and associated hardware.  This technology is called
thermophovoltaics or (TPV).  TPV is going to be a future energy conversion
mechanism in this country.  This system can be used on large scale and small
scale systems.  The improvements that are being made to bring this technology
to a mature level are being made by many different groups.
I have directly worked on system concepts that use a nuclear reactor as the
energy source for this work.  In order for the system concept that I have been
working on to advance photovoltaic PV technology improvements need to occur.
The material that radiates the photons (emitter) is an area when I have an
interest.  My emitter work is being developed for nuclear applications, but if
may well have applications in the areas of solar thermal, hybrid electric
vehicles, or combustion based systems.

The point is that the plane and train are interrelated in a significant manner.
Portions of all energy conversion systems are related, and incremental changes
in one conversion technology can have significant effects on other
technologies.  


From jbvb@elf.com Sun Sep  4 00:56:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1449 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Date: 2 Sep 1994 01:50:49 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3460dp$mno@usenet.elf.com>
References: <23e_9409011032@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler) writes:

>...  Dad wants to mount the motor at the top of the well
>and the rod down the casing to, say, 450 ft., with the suction rod working the
>pump at the bottom....

You don't say what your static water level is, but I assume fairly far down...

>... Last night he was talking about putting check valves in
>the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up every 30 ft or so to ease in the drawing up of
>the water such a great distance.

More than 1 check valve is redundant, and may restrict flow more than
you want.  Having 1 check valve near the pump will keep the pressure
off the pump's internal valves during the downstroke, and this may get
you water at the surface faster when you start pumping, by keeping it
from leaking out when the pump is off.  Keep in mind that when (not
if) you haul out the pipe, it will be a *lot* heavier with the water
in it...

>... Dad says this is easier and mechanically more
>sound that running all that DC wiring (450 ft of it) down the well and losing
>voltage.  Me, I'm not so sure.  Wiring seems more efficient than a physical,
>*moving* rod.  What do you think?

You'd need a fairly heavy-duty 24V submersible to lift 450'.  Ask the
vendors what they've got, what the service intervals are, and how much
current they need so you can figure out what size wire.  Both jack &
submersible pumps have moving parts down at the end of many feet of
heavy pipe.  The submersible puts the motor & wiring down there, which
is less of a problem than it was 20 years ago.  The jack pump has a
moving rod in the same shaft as the pipe, which can cause wear.  Also,
unless the jack pump has a *big* flywheel (remember classic oil-field
jack-pumps?), you can't use the momentum gained on the downstroke to
make up for the weight of the rod on the upstroke - the jack pump may
well require a larger motor & more PV panels.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Sep  4 00:56:02 EDT 1994
Article: 1450 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!al064
From: al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Godwin)
Subject: Re: telephone
Message-ID: <CvIAAB.7KK@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin)
Reply-To: al064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Godwin)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <432_9409012001@psybbs.durham.nc.us>  
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 14:15:46 GMT
Lines: 19
Status: O
X-Status: 


sorry for comming in late on this subject.

It seems you are looking for a wireless phine setup.

I use a Cellular phone with a huge roof antenna. The nearest cell is over
20 miles away but it works fine. the costs aren't cheap (cellular never
is) but the setup cost is low and I run the phone off the 12VDC solar ayatem.

My phone is on an island so a land line will allways be ot of the question.

The antennas are hard to find. I called many cell companies until I found
someone who understood the question and then they LENT me a complete system to
test.
--
Charles Godwin     -> The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers
Computer Associates, Realia Group
tel:(613) 761-1430 
fax:(613) 761-1422


From latta@ace.acadiau.ca Sun Sep  4 00:56:03 EDT 1994
Article: 1451 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!dragon.acadiau.ca!hsh218-4.acadiau.ca!latta
From: latta@ace.acadiau.ca (BRIAN LATTA)
Subject: Re: Solar Powered Tinted Windows?
Message-ID: <latta.18.2E6745E6@ace.acadiau.ca>
Lines: 20
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Nntp-Posting-Host: hsh218-4.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
References: <billp.9.00149B08@cerfnet.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 15:33:58 GMT
Lines: 20
Status: O
X-Status: 

There are large sheets of liquid crystal material available at tens of 
dollars per square foot (Edmund Scientific sells 6" sqare window for $89.00 
which is expensive but the only retail source I have at hand).  These are 
used sparingly as switchable privacy walls etc.

To get around the high costs of the liquid crystal technology, research has 
been directed at thin film coatings on glass which have the same or better 
switching performance.  These are referred to as electrochromic devices.  
Electro since controlled by an applied voltage (electric field), and chromic 
for changes in color.  They switch from 90 % transparent to few % 
transparent or totally blocking.  There or only a few small demonstration 
windows now since the technology is not completely developed.  

The control of such windows could be by energy management computers in large 
buildings, but for smaller buildings and residential applications your 
control idea might be a useful and inexpensive (an electrochromic window 
takes negligible power, milliwatts, so the normal solar power uses of the 
panels will not be affected).

Bryan Latta, Physics Department, Acadia University, Nova Scotia, Canada


From carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov Sun Sep  4 00:56:04 EDT 1994
Article: 1452 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!nrel!syssrv3!carries
From: carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov (Carrie Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel Pollution
Date: 1 Sep 94 18:41:52 GMT
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <carries.778444912@syssrv3>
References: <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com> <34533k$hfb@vern.bga.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: syssrv3r.nrel.gov
Status: O
X-Status: 

>I'n curious about the notion that veggie-based oils would be
>less pollutting.  Are there data to support this? 

Yes, these are data to support this, and more all the time. A lot of
it appears in obsurce journals, though.  1.	Masjuki H, Zaki AM,
Sapuan SM. A rapid test to measure performance, 
emission and wear of a diesel engine fueled with palm oil diesel.
Journal of the American Oil Chemists Society 
1993;70:1021. showed that CO emmisions are reduced 9 times and
sulfer in bio-diesel is 50 times lower than that in the diesel
tested. NOx emmisions are about the same for both, however. In
addition, much of the incomplete combustion of diesel is apparently
related to the aromatic content of the fuel (sorry - don't have a
ref right here) - bio-diesel is very low in aromatics because the
source is fatty acids from veg oil, which are straigth-chain
hydrocarbons.



-- 
Carrie Schneider, Ph.D.
National Renewable Energy Lab
1617 Cole Boulevard
Golden, CO 80401 303-384-6119


From ems@cygnus.com Sun Sep  4 00:56:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1453 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!spcuna!charon.citicorp.com!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!hilbert.dnai.com!nbn!news.zeitgeist.net!news.cygnus.com!ems
From: ems@cygnus.com (E. Michael Smith)
Subject: Re: Diesel Pollution
Message-ID: <CvJ5Br.1FE@cygnus.com>
Sender: news@cygnus.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: cygnus.com
Organization: Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA
References: <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 01:26:14 GMT
Lines: 63
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9408311935.AA10020@esds01.es.dupont.com> muller@engg.dnet.dupont.com (ALAN MULLER, L13E60, 366-3468) writes:
>
>And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
>to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was originally developed/run 
>with vegetable oil....  

Nope.  Powdered coal.  Later they went with mineral oil.  There was
a 3000 mile test run of a truck on 'ground nut oil' (peanut oil) done,
though.  It worked fine.  (Source:  An engineering text on engine design
in the UC Davis library in about 1974...)

>If memory serves, Diesel's original thinking was to use powdered coal for fuel. 
Yes.  Blew up the engine and cost his assitant an eye; but proved the
concept of compression ignition so Diesel was happy.

>This didn't last long, but it is indeed possible to run a Diesel on solid fuels
>and there's been work done on it over the years.

Yup.  I've heard of someone growing chlorella in tanks, drying it with
diesel exhaust heat, fertilizing it with NOx and CO2 from the exhaust,
and feeding the chlorella dust into the air intake for power.  Normal
old #2 Diesel is used for partial power to act as an ignition 'spark'...

>More to the point, I'n curious about the notion that veggie-based oils would be
>less pollutting.  Are there data to support this?  Seems to me that Diesel

Some.  No Sulpher in the veggy oil, so you get no SOx.  

The NOx should be dependent on engine design, though combustion temp
would contribute a little, and the veggy oil may burn cooler.

>exhaust nasties are products of incomplete combustion--high molecular wt stuff
>and finely divided solids.  

And 'straight' veggy oil is fairly high weight, but has lots of oxygen
already in it to it seemed to make less black smoke when I ran it.

At slow idle, though, it didn't ignite well in my modestly low
compression diesel so it tended to misfire and make an acrid white
smoke (i.e. unburned vaporized oil).  Adding kerosene to it cured this.

>Is the combustion chemistry of veggie-based
>oils--to the extent one can generalize--more favorable in this regard?

The best way to handle it seems to be transesterification with methanol.

Take 80% veggy oil, 19% methanol, and 1% lye.  Mix.  Wait.  Decant the
methyl-ester from any unreacted veggy oil and lye.  

This stuff is much more closely the same viscosity as #2, and burns
better...  

It has recently been in the news due to some folks driving a Van
across the US using it.

I've not yet run a batch of it (made about 2 cups to prove the process,
but not run in the engine yet...) but will in a few weeks.

-- 

E. Michael Smith
Manager of Stuff
Cygnus Support


From swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca Sun Sep  4 00:56:05 EDT 1994
Article: 1454 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newton.ccs.tuns.ca!swaraysm
From: swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Shem-Gbay M Swaray)
Subject: Gasifier Technology Design & Development since '80s
Message-ID: <1994Aug31.161951.19596@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:19:51 GMT
Organization: tuns.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 18
Status: O
X-Status: 

 Hi Everyone!

 I'm currently reviewing gasifier technology design & development since
 its inception. I've managed to come as far as the early '80s, which
 is almost everything but for the fact that an apparently dizzying
 rate of research and development work has suddenly materialised, I
 hear, in Thailand and China, among other places. I'm particularly
 interested in the use of STRAW and RICE HUSK as feedstocks and
 would be thankful for pointers to current documentation on these.

 Best regards.

 S-G. Mohamed Swaray
 Dept. of Mech. Eng.
 Technical Univ. of Nova Scotia
 Halifax, NS, CANADA
 (swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca)



From swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca Sun Sep  4 00:56:06 EDT 1994
Article: 1455 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newton.ccs.tuns.ca!swaraysm
From: swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Shem-Gbay M Swaray)
Subject: Gasifier Technology Design & Development since '80s
Message-ID: <1994Aug31.163002.20284@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:30:02 GMT
Organization: tuns.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 17
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Everyone!

I'm currently doing a review of gasifier technology research &
development since its inception. I've come as far as the early
1980s and I'm wanting information since then. I'm particularly
concerned about mobile gasifiers operating on STRAW and/or
RICE HUSK feedstocks, but info on developments with respect to other
feedstocks will also be most welcome.

Many thanks for any help.

S-G. Mohamed Swaray
Dept. of Mech. Eng.
Technical University of Nova Scotia
Halifax, NS, CANADA
(swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca)



From swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca Sun Sep  4 00:56:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1456 of alt.energy.renewable
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!newsflash.concordia.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newton.ccs.tuns.ca!swaraysm
From: swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Shem-Gbay M Swaray)
Subject: Gasifier Technology Design & Development since '80s
Message-ID: <1994Sep1.132853.8506@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 13:28:53 GMT
Organization: tuns.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 17
Status: O
X-Status: 

  Hi there!

  I'm currently doing a review of gasifier technology research &
  development. I'm o.k. till the 1970s but have yet to be certain
  who's doing what since then. I know a lot of activity's going on
  in the US, Brazil, the Philippines, Thailand, China, etc. but I
  just can't put my hands on anything.

  I'm particularly interested in STRAW and/or RICE HUSK gasification
  technology and should be thankful for any leads to what's going on
  around the world.

  Regards,

  S-G. Mohamed Swaray
  (E-mail: swaraysm@newton.ccs.tuns.ca)



From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:07 EDT 1994
Article: 1457 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Real Goods ?
Message-ID: <869_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 02:58:24 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 14
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 23 Aug 94 21:58:24 GMT

Alright gang -
You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?
I have made a page by page search of my ONLY copy of Home Power
and while I did see it mentioned, as far as how to get it I found
NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.  Since I don't want to wait for my subscription
to Home Power to start or my CD-ROM to get here, I'm hoping 
somebody can give me a phone number, name, address, whatever I
need to acquire this holy grail!  Thanks :) .

rwizard


From Jonathan.Allan@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:08 EDT 1994
Article: 1458 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Jonathan.Allan
From: Jonathan.Allan@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Jonathan Allan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fridge Gadget
Message-ID: <86a_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 04:28:20 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]IBM Rochester MN
Lines: 24
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: xzz0529@rs48069.rchland.ibm.com (Jonathan Allan)
Date: 23 Aug 94 23:28:20 GMT

In article <Pine.3.89.9408231301.A27250-0100000@atl1>, rwizard@america.net
(Randy K. Wilson) writes:
|> I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
|> supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
|> sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
|> here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

Ask this one over on sci.energy.  One chap plugged in
his fridge and it eventually destroyed the fridge
motor, right before it self destructed.  The magic
word is "Green Plug".  Consumer Reports covered these
kinds of devices a while back.  If your fridge is newer
than about 7+/-3 years, forget it - it won't improve
the fridges efficiency any.

My next fridge is gonna be a Sunfrost.

-- 
*  Nobody except me has any stake in this opinion, and *
*  if I'm playing Devlis Advocate, even *I* don't.     *
*  Don't bother emailing, it'll bounce.                *


From John.Grant@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:10 EDT 1994
Article: 1459 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!John.Grant
From: John.Grant@psybbs.durham.nc.us (John Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Fridge Gadget
Message-ID: <86b_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 04:55:32 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]CRL Dialup Internet Access
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: johng@crl.com (John Grant)
Date: 23 Aug 94 23:55:32 GMT

rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson) writes:

>I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
>supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
>sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
>here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

Yes ! I bought one for my 14 year old side by side GE. I also borrowed a meter
from the power company and left the thing running 1 week with 1 without. The
outcome was quite surprising. With the "green plug" connected one day the
consumption would be 1.8KWh the next 8.XKWh and so on, the average was
5.4KWh per day. Without the green plug the daily consumption had exactly the
same average, but the daily variation was minimal, I would have expected
the opposite result, but you live and learn. So since there was no net
savings I sent the thing back.

Consumer Reports did a mini review of these things a couple of months ago
and said that only on reaaly old fridges did they make a difference. Obviously
14 years is not really old. It's a real pest that the new efficient models
are so expensive, there is no way that I can justify the $1500 for a new
model when the old (touch wood) is still doing so well, even if it costs
an extra $75 per year to run.


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1460 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Thanks
Message-ID: <86c_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 06:27:43 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 7
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 24 Aug 94 01:27:43 GMT

Just a quick thanks for the great responses on my questions
about Real Goods and the Green Plug.
:)
rwizard


From Eric.F_.Richards@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:11 EDT 1994
Article: 1461 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Eric.F_.Richards
From: Eric.F_.Richards@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Emmisions Testing/EV's -Reply
Message-ID: <86d_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 07:09:36 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Date: 24 Aug 94 02:09:36 GMT

> 
> : No, I don't mean bicycles, but all those 1-2 tonne cars with one or two
> : people in that take MW of power (MJ of energy) to move them along the
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Wow. You must have some REALLY hot cars over there! 

I beg to differ...

	1 MW / 746 watts per horsepower = 1340 Horsepower.

...now figure 10% efficiency in conversion from thermal to mechanical
energy and you end up with 134 horsepower.  Not so wild, after all...
less Hp than my car puts out to the transmission.


	I'd never really thought this through myself until I read that
the GM Impact has a 100kW inverter (liquid cooled) for its motor. Yikes!!

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu
"Can we all get along?"


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:12 EDT 1994
Article: 1462 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply
Message-ID: <86e_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:07:56 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 116
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 24 Aug 94 16:07:56 GMT


I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I really can't let
such silliness go unchallenged:  

On -1 xxx -1, Anton Simmons wrote:

> Esther,
<Interesting Stuff Deleted>
> 
> I take the point made by several people that the US is very big and has
> poor public transport, Europe is small and has good (in the main) public
> transport.  My opinions are obviously affected by living on an overcrowded

Urban Mass Transit is spotty.  Public highways are excellent.  Airlines
do a pretty reasonable job on long hauls.  What we really lack is a good
inter-city rail system.

> island.  My argument about taxation re: transportation is that very few
> people in the World can in fact afford to have access to personal transport.

If you are a third world subsitience farmer what are you gonna use mass
transit for ?  I'm sorry, but the solution for this is to teach these
folks to be more productive, i.e. affluent.  Life is not a 0 sum game !

>  Are we few wealthy people to drive around polluting the planet generally
> (and congesting it specifically in the UK), while most people struggle with
> poorly organised public transport (or should that be poor transport) ?  Since
> public transport can only be funded centrally, central taxation it has to be.


Excuse me, but why should I allow the Government to put a gun at my head
and take my hard earned money so that somebody can take a free ride on
some expensive overbloated Gov't run transit system ?

> We just have to maintain control over the organisation of that taxation and
> the provision of services from that taxation.  In this country we had an

Well, now I know you are lost.  MAINTAIN CONTROL ?  Over a CENTRAL TAXATION
AUTHORITY ?  Excuse me while I flap my arms and fly around the room !

> excellent, centrally funded health service.  This is being run down and
> rapidly approaching the US, free market, system.  Similarly we are in the

Excellent ! While the transition may be a problem, if they do it right
you will be well pleased with the results.  As for all that crap Bill
Clinton spews about our system - don't believe it.  I am disabled, no longer
able to work,  in need of ongoing medical care.  My wife went through a
serious bought with cancer and had to have major surgery which was soon
followed by another life threatening illness.  Guess what, while we
should be "Clinton Poster Children" we aren't.  Our care was superb!

> process of decentralising or 'privatising' public transport.  This means less
> transport provision which is more expensive at the point of use,

Hopefully it will also result in less taxation, leading in time to a more
robust economy and greater economic freedom for workers.  When I worked
in England my compensation was paid by my US employer.  I was horrified
by the poor local wages and the local cost of living.

> encouraging people to use cars.  Public transport should be free at the

Nothing should ever be "free" - people have no respect for things they don't
at least pay something for.  If you want to wreck your transit system, that
would be a good way to do it.

And, Free to whom ?  Somebody is paying for this.

> point of use to compete with cars which are highly subsidised through
> absurdly low fuel prices, the US in particular has criminally cheap gasoline.


SUBSIDIZED ? BY WHO ? THE GENEROSITY OF THE OIL COMPANIES ?  CRIMINALLY
CHEAP ?  Funny, I thought your fuel was criminally taxed !  Just because
you are stupid enough to give the politicians that much of YOUR money to play
with, don't call me a criminal for having the wisdom to say no.

> 
> Yes, I have a car (a diesel station wagon) which I've decided to get rid of,
> and I cycle more these days, its just those long journeys will be difficult,
> guess I shouldn't make long journeys.  Personal responsibility.

Excuse me, but not everyone is phyically able to bike or jog to the market.
Personal Responsibility ?  Or Self-Serving Personal Smugness ?

> 
> We do have what you might call indirect smog controls : All cars have to
> pass an annual road worthiness test which now includes emission testing;
> and smog warnings are given on certain days to advise people not to use
> their cars, and the elderly, infirm and small children not to go outside !
The
> thing is not many places here have air conditioning.   Asthma cases are

If you were not suffering from overburdening taxation you could probably
afford the technology to deal with some of these problems.

> rising rapidly, particularly amongst the young.  I cycle to work and I get a
> runny nose and sneeze a lot when I arrive, and I live in a small town (which
> is 1 mile from the M1 motorway).  

I experience the same thing - everytime the pine trees on my place are
in bloom.

> 
> Anton Simmons, Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology,
> Loughborough University, Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK.
> 

Sorry gang - I make it a rule never to bring up socio-political stuff,
but when somebody else brings it up, I respond.  Again, my apologies.
BTW - So nobody misunderstands, I'm all for mass transit, just opposed
to socialism and weak minds.

rwizard


From Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:13 EDT 1994
Article: 1463 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Stan.Bischof
From: Stan.Bischof@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Stan Bischof)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply
Message-ID: <86f_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:27:32 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
Lines: 18
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: stanb@hpnmrsb2.sr.hp.com (Stan Bischof)
Date: 24 Aug 94 16:27:32 GMT

Randy K. Wilson (rwizard@america.net) wrote:

: I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I really can't let
: such silliness go unchallenged:  

.. [ lots of good points deleted ]

WELL SAID!

Incredible how many folks still believe that having the government 
confiscate and control everything will solve the worlds ills.

--
Stan Bischof
Hewlett Packard Sonoma County


From Anton.Simmons@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:14 EDT 1994
Article: 1464 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Anton.Simmons
From: Anton.Simmons@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Anton Simmons)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <870_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:41:21 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: A.D.Simmons@lut.ac.uk (Anton Simmons)
Date: 24 Aug 94 16:41:21 GMT

Randy K. Wilson wrote a lot of stuff.  As I said earlier there are a lot of
selfish and childish people out there.  I will not respond further.  

This is a Renewable Energy list after all. 

Has anyone any direct experience of connecting small scale, i.e. domestic
of a few kW, wind and solar generation to the utility grid ?  Any experience
of technical and utility difficulties ?

Anton.


From Charles.W.Good@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1465 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Charles.W.Good
From: Charles.W.Good@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Charles W Good)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Message-ID: <871_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:44:29 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]The Ohio State University
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cgood@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles W Good)
Date: 24 Aug 94 16:44:29 GMT

Charles W. Good


From CYBURG_aol_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:16 EDT 1994
Article: 1466 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!CYBURG_aol_com
From: CYBURG_aol_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us (CYBURG@aol.com)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubsribe
Message-ID: <872_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 22:19:39 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: CYBURG@aol.com
Date: 24 Aug 94 17:19:39 GMT

unsubsribe


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:17 EDT 1994
Article: 1467 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: AE and RE lists -Reply -Reply
Message-ID: <873_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 23:40:17 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 24 Aug 94 18:40:17 GMT



On -1 xxx -1, Anton Simmons wrote:

> Randy K. Wilson wrote a lot of stuff.  As I said earlier there are a lot of
> selfish and childish people out there.  I will not respond further.  
> 
How SUPERIOR of you Anton,  I stand in awe of your ENLIGHTENED state.
It is best to cut your losses, I wouldn't respond further either.

> This is a Renewable Energy list after all. 
> 
So why not stick to the very interesting problems which this presents.
If we make it economically viable people will use it without a lot of
socio-political meddling.  I suggest you send your taxation ideas to
alt.support.marxist .

> Has anyone any direct experience of connecting small scale, i.e. domestic
> of a few kW, wind and solar generation to the utility grid ?  Any experience
> of technical and utility difficulties ?
> 
> Anton.
> 
Thank you for changing to a more appropriate topic.  I look forward to
the answers you receive as this is an area of interest to me as well.

Randy


From Center./.NT@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:18 EDT 1994
Article: 1468 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Center./.NT
From: Center./.NT@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Center / NT)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Message-ID: <874_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 22:49:30 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]MCSNet Subscriber Account, Chicago's First Public
Lines: 20
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cnt@MCS.COM (Center / NT)
Date: 24 Aug 94 17:49:30 GMT

Randy K. Wilson (rwizard@america.net) wrote:
: Alright gang -
: You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
: see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?

You can reach them at 1-800-762-7325.

Also their mailing address is:

Real Goods
966 Mazzoni Street
Ukiah, CA 95482-3471


Jonathan Goldman
------------------------
jonathan@cnt.org


From James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:20 EDT 1994
Article: 1469 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!James.VanBokkelen
From: James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: getting electrical energy from woodstove?
Message-ID: <875_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 23 Aug 94 17:49:27 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]ELF Communications
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Date: 23 Aug 94 12:49:27 GMT

bcarroll@suneast.East.Sun.COM (Bruce Carroll - Sun BOS Systems Product
Assurance CONTRACTOR) writes:

>Is there anything available to capture electricty from a woodstove, 
>(steam engine, etc). I am looking to generate a small amount to help 
>keep my batteries charged during the winter. 

In a relatively recent issue of Home Power there was a write-up of
using a commercial LP-gas thermoelectric generator, but I can't find
it in the index published in #42 (at least not under Thermo...).
There was a more general article on thermo-electricity in #36.  I
suppose if you could lay hands on the right kind of junction, you
could attach them to the stove, but be careful of over-temperature.

Any steam engine of useful horsepower (1/4HP+, maybe?) is going to
need a good deal of steam.  Available water heating coils are probably
designed to run at below boiling, and they won't have features like
steam domes (where the steam gets separated from the water).  You
could probably make it work (with considerable effort), but you'd have
to put together an absolutely reliable system to maintain the water
level, because a boiler explosion in your living space would put the
occupants at severe risk.  Nobody would insure you.


--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1470 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!William.Lord
From: William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <876_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 00:26:23 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 10
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Date: 24 Aug 94 19:26:23 GMT

unsubscribe
Professor William Lord
Boston University
College of Communication
640 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617 353-5974


From arbogast_muleears_austin_ibm_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:21 EDT 1994
Article: 1471 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!arbogast_muleears_austin_ibm_com
From: arbogast_muleears_austin_ibm_com@psybbs.durham.nc.us (arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Magnets for HardWater?
Message-ID: <877_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:06:57 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]IBM Austin
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com
Date: 24 Aug 94 16:06:57 GMT

What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves
calc buildup all over the water system; nothing new living
in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well
instead of municipal system, so I have to treat the water.

2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about
really strong magnet system to put around cold water intake to
re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't
want to deposit on my system. (Nice..)

3) He also says if I use the magnets, an RO system will work
effectively, and without it will not, that my water will harm the RO
unit.

4) Some talk that these magnets are a miracle and some talk that,
well, you need more of them than they tell you and they're perhaps
not as effective as previously touted.

What I would appreciate is some opinions from experience and/or
the scientific community about the idea in general and the 
magnets already in use.

Thanks, and I'll hangup and listen ?!  Ted Arbogast, Terlingua Texas


From James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:22 EDT 1994
Article: 1472 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!James.VanBokkelen
From: James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <878_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 17:32:08 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]ELF Communications
Lines: 40
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Date: 24 Aug 94 12:32:08 GMT

Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler) writes:

>...  He's convinced a low (say, 24v) voltage pump will be able to draw
>up 10+ gallons/min from our 525 feet of well.  I'm not so sure.  Does anyone
>have any experience with these things?...

The one I bought (and wrote about in HP #40) was a ShurFlow
submersible, which draws about 2A @24VDC while lifting maybe 1.7 GPM
from 60' down in my 340' well (static water level is about 26' down).
This is fine for my barn & tree/garden watering application, and would
do for a house if you had a large storage tank.

There are other DC submersibles, but I don't know if they deliver more
GPM.  Windy Dankoff's SlowPump will deliver at least 4GPM, but it
isn't submersible, so you need a very stable water level in the well
(no more than 10' variation ever, regardless of use).

I've been told the following, which is probably relevant to your 525'
well (note that I am not completely confident in the physics):

 One issue with all positive displacement pumps is that they shouldn't
 be submerged any more than is necessary.  Where a centrifugal pump is
 helped by the pressure of the standing column above it, positive
 displacement pumps aren't.  Typically you can draw more GPM from a well
 if you pump from further down, so centrifugal submersibles get hung
 deep, but putting a diaphragm or vane pump deep makes it work harder,
 so it delivers fewer GPM.

Check out the pump stories in the last 4-5 issues of HP, and call a
few of the advertisers/dealers.  If you can meet your needs by
dragging a genny out there once a day, you could probably do so with a
slower-pumping PV-direct DC application (pumps when the sun is out)
that ran most of the day.  New prices would be in the $1000+ range for
one or two panels, a pump and maybe a controller.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:23 EDT 1994
Article: 1473 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!James.VanBokkelen
From: James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Real Goods ?
Message-ID: <879_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 24 Aug 94 17:37:09 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]ELF Communications
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Date: 24 Aug 94 12:37:09 GMT

rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson) writes:

>You've told me I need the "Real Goods" catalog.  I frequently
>see reference made to it - HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT ?
>I have made a page by page search of my ONLY copy of Home Power
>and while I did see it mentioned, as far as how to get it I found
>NOTHING, NADA, ZIP....

I've seen their ads, but I guess they don't always run one...

Real Goods
966 Mazzoni St.
Ukiah, CA  95428-3471
800-762-7325

A recent mailing said they'd moved to a new site nearby, but the old
address will probably work for a while at least.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From doe-egg_access_digex_net@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:24 EDT 1994
Article: 1474 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!doe-egg_access_digex_net
From: doe-egg_access_digex_net@psybbs.durham.nc.us (doe-egg@access.digex.net)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Totally Free Power
Message-ID: <87a_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 02:21:32 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]Express Access Online Communications, USA
Lines: 77
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: doe-egg@access.digex.net
Date: 24 Aug 94 21:21:32 GMT

In message <32s29b$1nn@sundog.tiac.net>, conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)

writes:

>I haven't ever seen or heard discussion of the following as a power
>source, although it is free, legal, and universally available.
>If it was been discussed before, I appologize for the repetition.
>
>It's something called the Atmospheric Potential Gradient.  In essence,
>its is the voltage or potential difference that exists between the
>Earth's surface and its Ionosphere.  While I'm not sure that a useful
>level of power can be extracted, some of you may find interesting 
>applications for this, and, if nothing else, have fun playing with
>it.
>
>Way back in ancient times, when I was 12, I managed to install a 
>televison antenna on the roof of our home in New Jersey.  When
>I had connected a typical piece of twin-lead to it, and ran it 
>down the side of the house, I noticed that I could repeatedly get
>a spark from the wire when I connected it to a grounded lightning
>arrester.  I also received several shocks in the process. At first,
>I assumed that it was from some sort of power line leakage, but
>it turned out to be a somewhat more fundamental source of energy.
>
>For some reason, I don't remember why, I decided to check it out 
>with one of those little neon-bulb type circuit testers, and,
>surprise, there was enough voltage to light the neon bulb.  An
>even bigger surprise was that only one electrode of the bulb
>was lit, indicating that the power source was direct current,
>and therefore could not possibly be originating from the power
>lines. This mystified me.
>
>It was some years later that I found the actual source.
>
>During a college project, I was researching atmospheric electrical
>phenomena. While reading a monograph entitled "Thunderstorm
>Electricity" I learned that a potential gradient exists in Earth's
>atmosphere, between the Ionosphere and the Earth surface; and that
>this could be viewed as a large resistor with hundreds of
>thousands of Amps flowing through it at all times.  
>
>In simpler terms, if you put a conductive collector up in the
>air, and run an insulated conductor down to the ground, a DC
>current flow will exist in the wire.  You are effectively tapping 
>into free, atmospheric electricity.  Height determines voltage, 
>while the size of the collector determines practical current 
>limitations. The energy flow is constant (or very nearly so) and 
>while small, free.
>
>With a collector placed at the height of a two story house, approximately
>70 to 100 volts can be measured.  I have never measured the current,
>but again, it would be determined by the collector size. I would
>suspect it to range form hundreds of Microamperes to low Milliamps.
>From personal experience, it is enough current (with a TV antenna sized 
>collector) to produce a fairly painful electric shock!
>
>It you can dream up a use for this curious effect, go to it. 
>Even if you can't, it might be a fun thing for some of you to
>experiment with.
>
>Have fun.
>
>                                      Harry C.
>
>
>ps. I currently looking at feasibility of using this effect to 
>    maintain the charge on the batteries in my sailboat, possibly
>    through use of a collector on top the mast.
>

I don't think you were tapping power from the ionosphere, unless your antenna 
was tens of miles long.  You were more likely observing a charge built up by 
placing a conductor in a moist environment containing ions (the ground).  By 
the way, there is no free power.


From Bob.Jackson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sun Sep  4 00:56:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1475 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Bob.Jackson
From: Bob.Jackson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Bob Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Magnets for HardWater?
Message-ID: <87b_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 25 Aug 94 01:08:51 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [Usenet]Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
Lines: 38
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bobj@boi.hp.com (Bob Jackson)
Date: 24 Aug 94 20:08:51 GMT

arbogast@muleears.austin.ibm.com wrote:
: What I know is: 1) I have hard water, which eventually leaves
: calc buildup all over the water system; nothing new living
: in the western desert regions all my life. Now I have a well
: instead of municipal system, so I have to treat the water.

: 2) Real Goods people (Randy the water guru!) have told me about
: really strong magnet system to put around cold water intake to
: re-align (magically?) the ions so they flow thru better and don't
: want to deposit on my system. (Nice..)

: 3) He also says if I use the magnets, an RO system will work
: effectively, and without it will not, that my water will harm the RO
: unit.

: 4) Some talk that these magnets are a miracle and some talk that,
: well, you need more of them than they tell you and they're perhaps
: not as effective as previously touted.

: What I would appreciate is some opinions from experience and/or
: the scientific community about the idea in general and the 
: magnets already in use.

: Thanks, and I'll hangup and listen ?!  Ted Arbogast, Terlingua Texas

We have a set of magnets around our pool outlet pipe....I've never taken them
off to see what a difference it would make.  The pool installer put them on
to try and solve our mineral staining problem; he seemed to think it helped.
They didn't cost me anything and if I dump in a bottle of scale/stain 
inhibitor every time I add water to the pool, it stays white.  So I'm 
happy.....

Have a good one...

Bob....


From Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:56:25 EDT 1994
Article: 1476 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n147!f34!p13!Cloyce.Osborn
From: Cloyce.Osborn@p13.f34.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Cloyce Osborn)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <8aa_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Sep 94 02:03:41 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Res Ipsa Loquitur, Oklahoma
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 


 DH> We have a submersible now.  Dad wants to mount the motor
 DH> at the top of the well and the rod down the casing to,
 DH> say, 450 ft., with the suction rod working the pump at the
 DH> bottom.  Last night he was talking about putting check
 DH> valves in the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up every 30 ft or so
 DH> to ease in the drawing up of the water such a great
 DH> distance.  Dad says this is easier and mechanically more
 DH> sound that running all that DC wiring (450 ft of it) down
 DH> the well and losing voltage.  Me, I'm not so sure.  Wiring
 DH> seems more efficient than a physical, *moving* rod.  What do you think?

Pump jacks are commonly used on oil wells here in Oklahoma (those wells may be
pumping from a depth of up to 20,000 feet!).  Properly counterbalanced, they
seem to be more efficient than the electric submersible pumps commonly used in
shallow water wells.  They are a hassel to install, though!  For a 450 foot
well, I'd be inclined to go with a pump jack type system.  My own water well is
only 200 feet so I get along quite well with a submersible pump.

BTW, no pump will LIFT water more than 30 feet!  Many will, however, push water
much, much higher.

Regards.  Cloyce.


From Bill.Basford@f406.n326.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:56:26 EDT 1994
Article: 1477 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n326!f406!Bill.Basford
From: Bill.Basford@f406.n326.z1.fidonet.org (Bill Basford)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: FRIDGE GADGET
Message-ID: <8b1_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Sep 94 04:04:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] *AcornBBS*Freeport,ME*USA*207-865-3004*
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Randy K. Wilson
Status: O
X-Status: 


RKW>I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
RKW>supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
RKW>sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
RKW>here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

Hello Randy,

   Yes, I have tried several of them, on several different
   refrigerators, and they seem to work well.  I have found that they
   reduce the line voltage from about 118 - 120 volts down to about 92
   to 95 volts.  That's based on measurements with a simple voltmeter.
   (Line voltage here in central Maine is usually 118 to 120 volts, at
   least during the weekends when I have been measuring it, but it may
   be lower in other areas.)

   Actual savings on the electric bill are difficult to determine
   because the refrigerator is usually just one of several things
   using electricity in the typical home, and I haven't found a low
   priced electric meter that I can use for a refrigerator only.

   However, I would expect savings of between 1 and 5 dollars per month,
   depending on the size and age of your refrigerator.

                                                           Au Revoir
---
 ~ OLX 2.1 TD ~ Free Al Gore!


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:56:27 EDT 1994
Article: 1478 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: DIESEL POLLUTION
Message-ID: <8b6_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 22:31:53 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Darr Hoag
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > oil comes to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was 
 > originally developed/run with vegetable oil....  Between the Hearst 

Actually, Rudolf Diesel designed his original engine to run on coal dust. It
was projected to be so efficient that it wouldn't require a cooling system. The
prototype blew up, nearly killing a couple of technicians in the lab.
 
That said, a Diesel engine offers a very large advantage over gasoline or
propane engines, and that's very high efficiency at partial loads. When
powering a generator that is not fully loaded, a Diesel will use far less fuel
than a gasoline-fueled unit. When both are 100% loaded, the difference becomes
much smaller. You'll also find that modern Diesels aren't all that bad in the
pollution department, especially when not fully loaded; Diesels run very lean
by their nature except at full power.


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:56:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1479 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: RE: MILK JUG SALVAGE
Message-ID: <8b7_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 13:53:04 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Jack Coats
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > does anyone know the address of Home Shop Machinist magazine?

 Home Shop Machinest
 P.O. Box 1810
 Traverse City, MI 49685
 
Phone 1-800-447-7367 or 1-616-946-3712
 
Subscriptions are $22.50/year in the US, and are available for other countries,
too.


From Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org Sun Sep  4 00:56:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1480 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n234!f2!Jim.Dunmyer
From: Jim.Dunmyer@f2.n234.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Dunmyer)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: JACK PUMPS
Message-ID: <8b8_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 14:00:19 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Toledo's TBBS, 14+ gigs, 150,000 files 313-854-6001
Lines: 19
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Dave Hassler
Status: O
X-Status: 


 > We have a submersible now.  Dad wants to mount the motor at the top 
 > of the well and the rod down the casing to, say, 450 ft., with the 
 > suction rod working the pump at the bottom.  Last night he was 
 > talking about putting check valves in the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up 
 > every 30 ft or so to ease in the drawing up of the water such a 
 > great distance.  Dad says this is easier and mechanically more sound 

I wouldn't personally change an existing submersible pump to a pump jack
system, but:
 
You don't install check valves every 30 feet, there is one at the bottom of the
pump cylinder down in the well, and another at the top of the well. The "sucker
rod" runs down the center of the pipe to operate the piston. For that deep a
well, you'd probably want a pump jack with a counterweight on it, similar to
those seen in the oil patches of Kansas, Texas, and Oklahoma. The power
requirements for such a setup should be pretty similar to those of a
submersible pump except for the efficiency losses due to the gearing of the
pump jack. It's a MUCH more complicated setup.


From wlord@bu.edu Sun Sep  4 16:33:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1481 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: wlord@bu.edu (Willliam Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 4 Sep 1994 20:05:27 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 3
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <199409041949.PAA14897@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe




From conover@max.tiac.net Mon Sep  5 00:03:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1482 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: unsubscribe
Date: 4 Sep 1994 21:27:03 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <34de37$hi7@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <199409041949.PAA14897@email-server.bu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Willliam Lord (wlord@bu.edu) wrote:
: unsubscribe



How many more times are you going to post this?  Are you trying to
unsubscribe, or make a point.

Have you tried using <cntrl> U?

                                   Harry C.



From conover@max.tiac.net Mon Sep  5 00:03:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1483 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!max.tiac.net!conover
From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: FRIDGE GADGET
Date: 4 Sep 1994 21:38:59 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <34depj$hi7@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <8b1_9409031807@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bill Basford (Bill.Basford@f406.n326.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:

: RKW>I know there is a gadget (supposedly NASA developed) which is
: RKW>supposed to make motors run more efficiently and which is frequently
: RKW>sold to plug between your refrigerator and the wall.  Anybody
: RKW>here ever try one ?  If so, did it provide any noticeable improvment ?

: Hello Randy,

:    Yes, I have tried several of them, on several different
:    refrigerators, and they seem to work well.  I have found that they
:    reduce the line voltage from about 118 - 120 volts down to about 92
:    to 95 volts.  That's based on measurements with a simple voltmeter.
:    (Line voltage here in central Maine is usually 118 to 120 volts, at
:    least during the weekends when I have been measuring it, but it may
:    be lower in other areas.)

:    Actual savings on the electric bill are difficult to determine
:    because the refrigerator is usually just one of several things
:    using electricity in the typical home, and I haven't found a low
:    priced electric meter that I can use for a refrigerator only.

:    However, I would expect savings of between 1 and 5 dollars per month,
:    depending on the size and age of your refrigerator.

:                                                            Au Revoir
: ---
:  ~ OLX 2.1 TD ~ Free Al Gore!


Can anyone explain the technology that these 'gagets' are base on?

They must do something other than reduce the voltage applied to the
motor, otherwise the motor would simply draw excessive current and
ultimately burn-out.

                                Harry C.

ps.  Perhaps they chop duty-cycle in some way, similar to at
     dimmer for lights.  Anyone know for certain?




From Ben.Ringwald@p251.f4115.n124.z1.fidonet.org Mon Sep  5 00:03:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1484 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n124!f4115!p251!Ben.Ringwald
From: Ben.Ringwald@p251.f4115.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ben Ringwald)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Fridge Gadget
Message-ID: <478_9409041040@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 21:59:32 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Welcome to Pecan Valley * FW Texas
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Terry goode
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello Terry!

01 Sep 94 20:14, Terry goode wrote to Randy K. Wilson:

 Tg> the floresent bulbs,thermo controlled attic vent and with my a/c set to 78
 Tg> deg my lect bill dropped from $300-400 a month to about $150-200 a month
 Tg> with an average out side temp of 95-110 deg(ah thats here in Houston Tx)or
 Tg> mabie the power company just dropped my rate's heheh ,got the green plugs
 Tg> at the local hardware store. terry g.

    I've been planning on installing thermo controlled attic vents here.
What brand did you get & at what store? Do you like'em? Do the green plugs
really help that much? What do you have'em hooked to?

Ben


From DBHolmes@aol.com Mon Sep  5 00:03:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1485 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Alternative solar cell technology
Date: 5 Sep 1994 02:35:15 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 114
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9409042216.tn309837@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

There have been several questions recently about ARDI. The founder of this
very small, privately financed R&D outfit in Athol, MA is Alvin M. Marks, an
inventor and senior citizen.

For years he played with polarizing filters and ways to make them. I used to
read his patents and marvel at his persistence in trying to find a way around
all of Polaroid's patents in this field. I got the impression that he never
was very successful at all this, at least not in a monetary sense.

In recent years, he seems to have been more or less fully engaged with
another idea. I will try to describe it - as best I can - in fairly simple
language. (I hope Marks will not be too upset if I don't do justice to his
concept.) (Maybe if he reads this, he will respond and tell us all what he is
up to!)

We are all familiar with radio and TV broadcasts. These signals come to us as
electromagnetic (EM) waves. Such signals are intercepted or collected quite
efficiently with antennas. Marks realized that light, too, is an EM wave.
Hence, why not use an antenna to capture light, rather than (inefficient)
solid-state devices known as photovoltaic cells (PV cells, or solar cells)?
So, his idea is to build an array of antenna to catch the energy from
sunbeams. He has filed several patent applications, and has been granted a
few patents. 

Now, as I understand things, the major problem here is the size of the
antenna required. Efficient antenna are wavelength dependent. You have to
match the antenna to the wavelength. Lightwaves are rather smaller than radio
or TV waves. Radio waves, for example, range from roughly one meter to tens
of kilometers in length. Visible light is in the range of 400 to 700
nanometers, or 0.4 to 0.7 micrometers. (A nanometer is one-billionth of a
meter; a micrometer, or micron, is one-millionth of a meter.) Our eyes happen
to be most sensitive to green light, around 550 nanometers. 

I'm not an antenna expert, so what I am now going to write may be gibberish,
nonsense, or even worse. But I suspect it's not far off. Good antennas, at
least in the radio world, are quarter-wave dipoles. That is, the length of
each antenna arm is one-quarter of the wavelength of the wave you wish to
tune into. Maybe you can build a good antenna at half-wave, or even
full-wave. But, roughly speaking, your antenna will have to be about the same
size as the length of the wave; in our case, a quarter-wave antenna for 500nm
or 0.5 micrometer, means making the antenna element around 0.1 micron long.
This is in the range of size of viruses! Or, it is just a few hundred times
larger than atoms!

>From what I have read about chip making in Silicon Valley, for a long time
the smallest feature that could be manufactured at reasonable cost was about
1 micrometer. State-of-the-art today is around 0.3-0.5 micrometers, for the
width of the simplest components, the "wires" connecting one part of a chip
with another.

>From all of the above, I surmise that Marks' dream is butting up against the
hard reality that no one yet knows how to make what he has conceived of. We
just may not have the proper tools to manipulate molecules, or perhaps atoms,
with enough precision and finesse to fabricate the vast arrays of these
micro-antennas that he envisions. To my (very limited) knowledge, he has
never been able to demonstrate his concept; I take this to mean he has not
succeeded in making an micro-antenna array even a few millimeters across.
Obviously, if he isn't able to do this, then we are many years, maybe
decades, away from being able to buy square meters of this material.

PV cells today range in efficiency from around 6 to perhaps 20%; panels of
these cells can be bought from Real Goods and other vendors for roughly $6
per Watt of output power. Sunlight, on our rooftops, provides something like
1 kiloWatt per square meter on a clear day at noon. Hence, you have to cover
a goodly portion of your rooftop with these panels to collect the power
requirements of the house's occupants (at least in the US and other
energy-hungry societies), and that costs a lot of money, much more than most
of us are able to spend. In a nutshell, that's why there isn't a huge
industry making PV panels right now. Now, if Marks was wildly successful, and
was able to produce devices which were incredibly efficient, say 80%, then
the size of the rooftop would not be a problem; everybody, even those without
a roof surface facing south (in the northern hemisphere), would probably be
able to capture all their electrical needs, if the price was right. So,
Marks' challenge is to learn to make his antenna arrays in large areas
(square meters) at a very low cost per square meter. IMHO, that is a very
major challenge, but I wish him well.

Marks is persistent, and apparently quite a negotiator, too. In the September
issue of Photovoltaic Insider's Report (PVIR), page 4, is a short article
describing a new aspect of Marks' work at ARDI. Apparently, the Argonne
National Lab is teaming up with Marks in an attempt to produce a "low cost,
highly efficient" solar cell. Argonne and ARDI have signed a CRADA, or
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement, calling for Argonne to
provide $900,000 to ARDI over a three year period. ARDI will also have to
contribute to this effort, but the article says nothing about the dollar
value of this.

Argonne's David Gosztola has developed a "perylene dye" that "converts light
into electricity." ARDI will try to find a way to incorporate this dye into
thin, transparent polymer films which have polarizing properties. PVIR quotes
ARDI's Jonathan Haber: "(We will) add the dyes (molecules) in the liquid
state, stretch it, keep the dyes in order and fix them into place." My
interpretation of this is that making polarizing films, as ARDI does,
involves orienting polymer molecules in precise ways; that is what the
stretching operation is all about. Polarizers often contain dye molecules,
too. They must be attached or associated with the polymer, so that when the
latter are stretched, and thereby aligned, the dye molecules (absorbers of
light) will also become aligned. So, ARDI is now apparently going to try to
make a polymer film, which can be stretched to align the molecules, wherein
the associated dye is the perylene dyestuff, from Argonne. Perhaps by
aligning the dye molecules in this manner they will be creating an antenna
array. That is, rather than trying to fabricate antenna wires 0.1 microns
long, they will use a dyestuff that has the proper size and shape to
effectively absorb the lightwaves. If so, they will then need to figure out
how to get all those captured photons out of this polymer sheet, into
electrical wires. The PVIR article mentions that part of the CRADA contract
calls for work to "get the electricity produced out via conducting strips or
wires."

The next chapter is just beginning...and just under $1 million of your tax
dollars are involved. So, stay tuned; keep your antenna unfurled. 

DBHolmes



From dkulha@crl.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:28 EDT 1994
Article: 1575 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: dkulha@crl.com (Don Kulha)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Biofuels - do they really produce energy?
Date: 10 Sep 1994 05:59:29 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Pine.3.87.9409092255.A5082-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
References: <carries.778952077@syssrv3>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 



On 7 Sep 1994, Carrie Schneider wrote:

> I finally found some data: "Biodiesel Alert" vol2,No 4 Fed 1994
> reports that  a study by the Institute for Local Self-Reliance
> estimated that methyl esters from soybeans has a net energy balance
> of 2.51:1 with present technology. They estimate the *potential *
> balance as being 4.1:1. Note that these studies often result in
> different numbers, due to the complexity of the sources.  A study by
> Nelson and Schrock of methyl esters from tallow reported a ratio of
> 0.49:1 - although it's not clear to me whether the value of the
> other products of cattle were included...... 

  Carrie, since you're knowledgeable about the field of alternative fuels 
I wanted to ask if you had info on something....

  Our local paper ran an article about some women driving a diesel van 
across America that predominantly burned used deep fryer oil (processed 
I'm sure), a little methanol and something else. I'm interested in the 
composition and processing of this fuel but a helpful friend recycled the 
newspapres and the only info I had disappeared. Know who these people were?
     DCK




From wbw@shore.net Sat Sep 17 22:18:29 EDT 1994
Article: 1576 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!shore.shore.net!shore.shore.net!not-for-mail
From: wbw@shore.net (William B. Warren)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Biofuels - do they really produce energy?
Date: 10 Sep 1994 07:50:08 -0400
Organization: North Shore Access; a service of Eco Software, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <34s6hg$hqs@shore.shore.net>
References: <carries.778952077@syssrv3> <Pine.3.87.9409092255.A5082-0100000@crl3.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shore.shore.net
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <Pine.3.87.9409092255.A5082-0100000@crl3.crl.com>,
Don Kulha <dkulha@crl.com> wrote:
>
>  Our local paper ran an article about some women driving a diesel van 
>across America that predominantly burned used deep fryer oil (processed 
>I'm sure), a little methanol and something else. I'm interested in the 
>composition and processing of this fuel but a helpful friend recycled the 
>newspapres and the only info I had disappeared. Know who these people were?
>     DCK

	Vegetable oils can be used to power diesel engines: I think it 
best if you start/warm up the engine with diesel, have an inline bleed 
and preheater for the vege oil tank (coils on the exhaust manifold?) and 
then shut down with diesel.
	WBW


From gnudd@bga.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:30 EDT 1994
Article: 1577 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!bga.com!slip152.bga.com!user
From: gnudd@bga.com (Greg Nudd)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: hazards of diesel exhaus
Date: 10 Sep 1994 15:18:54 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <gnudd-1009941019550001@slip152.bga.com>
References: <2c9_9409091039@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip152.bga.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <2c9_9409091039@psybbs.durham.nc.us>,
Gale.Barrows@125-7.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Gale Barrows) wrote:

> 
> Couldn't a significant amount of the particulates be removed from small
> diesel exhaust with a "swirl chamber" on the exhaust ? These chambers
> work very well for spark prevention and the chamber always builds up
> quite a bit of soot deposits. The chamber is sort of a whirl producing
> chamber and sparks etc. are thrown out away from the main exhaust flow
> where they are trapped by a baffle. They then drop to a holding chamber
> from which they can be removed.
> 

One could probably get some control with a cyclone device like that. Such
things usually get low control efficiencies for small particles, though.
Unfortunately, its the small particles which are the most harmfull.

-- 
Greg Nudd

gnudd@bga.com
finger for PGP public key
WWW home page: http://www.realtime.net/~gnudd/


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Sat Sep 17 22:18:31 EDT 1994
Article: 1578 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n2601!f553!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps        1/
Message-ID: <04d_9409101037@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Sep 94 02:32:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 142
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

CO> DH> We have a submersible now.  Dad wants to mount the motor
CO> DH> at the top of the well and the rod down the casing to,
CO> DH> say, 450 ft., with the suction rod working the pump at the
CO> DH> bottom.  Last night he was talking about putting check
CO> DH> valves in the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up every 30 ft or so
CO> DH> to ease in the drawing up of the water such a great
CO> DH> distance.  Dad says this is easier and mechanically more
CO> DH> sound that running all that DC wiring (450 ft of it) down
CO> DH> the well and losing voltage.  Me, I'm not so sure.  Wiring
CO> DH> seems more efficient than a physical, *moving* rod.

CO>BTW, no pump will LIFT water more than 30 feet!  Many will,
CO>however, push water much, much higher.

        Never say Never, to wit:

                              Rex Research
                              PO Box 19250
                             Jean, NV 89019

                                InFolio:

                          NR: 036-BELL/B7-BEL

                          Title: BELLOCQ: PUMP


   036-BEL         BELLOCQ, Toribio:  COMPRESSION WAVE PUMP ---   In
   the 1920s, 18 countries issued patents to Bellocq for his amazing
   pump   which  apparently  violates  natural  law.   By   creating
   compression  waves in a pipe, water can be forced to  run  uphill
   beyond the  33 foot limit imposed by Toricelli's law..  To  force
   water  higher,  authorities  have agreed that it must  be  pushed
   from below.  To convince patent examiners that this was not  some
   form  of  perpetual motion,  Bellocq installed his  pump  atop  a
   building  & invited patent officials to examine it.  They  saw it
   draw  a  steady stream up a pipe 80 feet high.   Not  until  they
   dropped weights down the pipe and found no  hidden machinery  did
   they believe their eyes, acknowledge that Bellocq had  discovered
   a new principle, and granted his patent.  The pump creates  fluid
   effects  equivalent  to  the electrical  analogues  of  capacity,
   inertia,  resistance,  leakage, wave fileters, ect..This  is  the
   tool  that  can  open new dimensions  of  resource  recovery  and
   development of water, oil, fluidics, hydraulics!

   -----------------------------------------------------------------

Thu Jun 10 14:05:38 1993:                                       #38

        I've become interested in water pumps, and pumps in general.
Failing to find a BBS that deals with water pumps, or even pluming in
general, I thought that you might be able to answer a question that has
been nagging me.  Also this idea seems to have a lot in common with
antennas and standing waves.

        I've only been able to find two types of conventional deep well
pumps, the type with the electric motor at the bottom, and a jet
injection type.   My question is why all this messing around with having
to put water or electricity down the well to get the water back up?
[Just as a point of interest I've only found three types of
UNconventional pumps, the one described here, the Tesla-Bladeless type,
and the Thromp pump.]

        A lot of you are about to tell me about air
pressure, and a few would probably bring up Toricelli's Law,
my physics book describes all of this dogma quite
adequately, thank you.  As with every thing there is always
a anomaly that can be exploited:

        Enter Toribio Bellocq.  In the 1920s a fellow by the name of
Bellocq got a patent, on some thing he called a Compression Wave Pump.
Which worked on a fairly simple idea, compared to todays 'modern' push
from the bottom methods.

        You take a pipe (black plastic PVC, in 300 feet
rolls, will do nicely thank you), place a conventional foot
valve at the bottom of the pipe, fill the pipe with a
non-compressible fluid, like water or oil (Getting the
compressible air out of the line is the tricky part; any
ideas?). At the top of the pipe you place some thing that
resembles an oil-well pumping jack that beats on the water
in the pipe [The analogy is crude, a piezoelectric hammer
seems like a better idea].

        As you beat on the water which is not going to compress, the
energy is transmitted down the column of water till it hits the foot
valve.  If you select a frequency for the rate of beating on the water
that matches the wave length of the pipe you will set up a standing wave.
When you get the standing wave node to fall correctly at the foot valve
(by changing the frequency of compression), the foot valve will operate.
As the water rebounds it will suck in some water from the well, which
will displace some water at the top of the pipe, which you can feed into
your storage tank.  After the rebound is completed the foot valve closes
preventing the water in the pipe from coming out the bottom the pipe.

        There will be some frictional losses from the water moving along
the pipe walls, and at some length the pipe would be to heavy to support
its own wight.  You also don't want to get carried away with your
beating or you'll push the foot valve out of the bottom of the pipe.  It
shouldn't take much effort when you find the correct resonant frequency.

        Is there some thing that I'm over looking that keeps this method
of pumping from working, or keeping it from being in wide spread use?

        One other use for Compression Wave Pump that I have thought of
is for use in the oil drilling industry.  [While I personally believe
Free Energy is the answer to our energy/environmental problems, the
Guardians of Statist-Quo continue to push fossil fuels so in this light
I will continue:]

        Having grown up in the Oil City PA area, where the history of
the modern day oil industry started you can't help but learn a bit about
it.

        In the hay-day of the oil boom here there were lots of wells
drilled.  [I've fallen into a couple of them when I was younger, with
out serious incident fortunately. :-( ]

        Today it cost to much to install the larger conventional pump
jacks on the old wells; such that the oil gotten out of the well would
never repay the jack investment cost.

        With a Compression Wave Pump you could do away with the sucker
rods, and the larger stationary jack motor.  You could simple drive a
Compression Wave Pump around on the back of a tank truck and drive from
well to well to get the oil out.

        What am I missing (Other than the mechanical aptitude to build
these things)?

        For any one who is interested here are some references:

        "The pump creates fluid effects equivalent to the electrical
analogues of capacity, inertia, resistance, leakage, wave filters,
ect..." -- Rex Research 036-BEL/B7-BEL.  [Any one want to apply some
DSP technics to their plumbing? :-) ]

        US Patent: 1,730,336 10/01/1929 "Apparatus for the Extraction of
Liquids"

        US Patent: 1,730,337 10/01/1929 "PUMP"
>>> Continued to next message


From Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org Sat Sep 17 22:18:32 EDT 1994
Article: 1579 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n2601!f553!Bob.Paddock
From: Bob.Paddock@f553.n2601.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Paddock)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps        2/
Message-ID: <04e_9409101037@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Sep 94 02:32:04 GMT
Organization: [Fido] Matric Limited: (814) 437-5647  Franklin, PA HST/DS
Lines: 64
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Cloyce Osborn
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>> Continued from previous message
        US Patent: 1,941,593 01/02/1934 "PUMPING"  [This patent is
interesting in that it shows the plumbing equivalent to resonance
circuits, high pass, low pass, and band pass filters.]

        There are several newer Patents on this also.

        "New Pump Beats Natural Laws in Raising Water" - Unknown (A bad
copy from an unknown publication).

                "New Pump Beats Natural Laws in Raising Water"
            --- Unknown (A bad copy from an unknown publication).

        Following the example of the United States Patent Office,
   eighteen  countries  have  issued  patents  to   an   Argentinean
   inventor upon an amazing pump that seems to violate natural laws.
   By creating waves in a pipeful of water, it makes the liquid  run
   uphill.

        When the inventor, Toribio Bellocq, applied for a  United
   States patent on a pump to be mounted at the top of a well and to
   draw water up from almost unlimited depth, officials pointed  out
   that  his  device  apparently  would have  to  defy  the  law  of
   gravitation.   Every high school student knows that by no  effort
   can  a  pump SUCK water higher  than  approximately  thirty-three
   [32.174  Feet  at one atmosphere I believe] feet.   This  is  the
   limit  at  which  the weight of an  imprisoned  column  of  water
   balances the atmospheric pressure outside.  To force water higher
   from  its source authorities have always agreed that it  must  be
   PUSHED  from below.  Therefore Bellocq's "wave pump" seemed in  a
   class  with perpetual motions machines, which are not  patentable
   because they are impossible. [According to "Them".]

        Bellocq  built  one  of his pumps, installed  it  atop  a
   Washington,  D.C.  office  building,  and  invited  officials  to
   inspect it.  They saw it draw a steady stream of water up a  pipe
   eighty  feet high.  Not until they dropped weights down the  pipe
   and  found no unseen machinery did they believe their  own  eyes.
   Then  they acknowledged that Bellocq had chanced upon a  entirely
   new mechanical principle and issued his patent.

        So  extraordinary is the operation of the new  wave  pump
   that even Bellocq admits he is not certain of its principle,  and
   leaves to scientists the verification of his own explanation.

        In  Bellocq's  pump  a piston vibrates  rapidly  with  an
   extremely short stroke.  It deals hammerlike blows to a column of
   water  in  a pipe. His theory is that when the frequency  of  the
   blows  is precisely timed for the length of the pipe  "stationary
   waves" are set up.

        Suppose  the  pipe's bottom to [Can't  read  about  three
   words here] then layers are formed where the water is alternately
   rarefied  and compressed without moving.  Midway between top  and
   at  the bottom are regions where water rushes alternately up  and
   down because of the waves.

        When  a one-way ball valve is added at the bottom,  water
   enters  from outside at one point in each wave cycle, to  replace
   water moving upward from the bottom of the pipe.  Once inside, it
   cannot back out.  Every influx of water "inches" the whole column
   upward, without interfering with the waves that travel trough it.
   A  valve  at  the  outlet,  while  not  essential,  improves  the
   efficiency.


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:33 EDT 1994
Article: 1580 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: 12v/24v wiring
Message-ID: <050_9409101037@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Sep 94 12:53:43 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods -Redwood Network-
Lines: 12
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Will Firstbrook
Status: O
X-Status: 

Will Firstbrook writes;
"I'm a bit confused about the load balancing.  I understand that
balancing the current drain from all the batteries would be desireable.
Yet your posting makes it sould critical, why? Does it have to do with
getting 24 volts from 2, 12 volt supplies wired in series where 1
battery has much greater current drain occuring? Resulting in:
 1. Voltage may drop from one side....."
Hi, Will. #1 is most of the problem. If wiring for 24v. you want the batteries
to charge and drain as evenly as possible. On the subject of wire, #14 would 
be a mistake in a run longer than a few feet. The voltage drop in 12vdc is ten
times as great as in 120v. wiring. In the least, I would use #10 romex for 
long runs. You could use 12 or 14 for short runs.


From Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1581 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!125-53!Arlo.Hagler
From: Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us (Arlo Hagler)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Alt energy/Renewable
Message-ID: <051_9409101037@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Sep 94 13:17:53 GMT
Organization: [Fido] In The Heart Of The Redwoods -Redwood Network-
Lines: 23
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: Harry Conover
Status: O
X-Status: 

Harry Conover writes;
The term 'Alternative' is, in itself, suggests different things to different
people.  To some, alternative energy means 'home grown' sources of
energy independent of the energy company suppliers.  To others, it
is energy sources differing from the historic mainstream (hydro, fossil
fuels, etc.)....Discussions should then be limited to wind, solar, hydro, and 
crop/manure
based systems, specifically excluding all discussion of fossil based fuels
(propane, butane, etc.), nuclear, and grid-energy derived hydrogen fuels and
EVs.  If discussion of any of these is to be encouraged, the term 'renewable'
should be deleted from the newsgroup name.
Hi, Harry. I agree that the name of your conference should be changed, as it 
is leading to confusion and conflict. I believe that EV discussion does belong
here. Nuclear does not, as it depends on non-renewable resources, not to 
mention being too costly and generating waste that we can't effectively deal 
with. The name of your conference should be the same as this one: home power, 
something we can do at home, via inginuity and/or existing products and new 
technologies, etc. Fossil-fed generators are a grey area. I'll leave that call
to the moderator.
The other concerns you mention are things we professionals in the field can 
deal with safely. With exception of bird kills and woodstove pollution, these 
concerns are met by a proper installation, using the proper equipment and 
complying with appropriate codes.


From ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org Sat Sep 17 22:18:34 EDT 1994
Article: 1582 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!org!fidonet!z1!n300!f507!ERIC.GRAY
From: ERIC.GRAY@f507.n300.z1.fidonet.org (ERIC GRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: No Opposing Viewpoin
Message-ID: <097_9409101037@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 9 Sep 94 06:55:00 GMT
Organization: [Fido] The Desert Reef >(;} * Tucson Az * V32B * 602 624 6386
Lines: 31
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
X-FTN-To: HARRY H CONOVER
Status: O
X-Status: 

HHC>>>From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
   >>>Date: 28 Aug 94 21:36:23 GMT

HHC>>>Arlo Hagler (Arlo.Hagler@125-53.psybbs.durham.nc.us) wrote:
   >>>: I agree w/you on the need for open info exchange. That's why i got a m
   >>>: after all. The fact remains that the title is "HOME Power", read,
   >>>alternative,
   >>>: energy. Nuclear doesn't qualify as alternative or renewable and so doe
   >>>: belong here. No religious fervor in that, just the facts. Otherwise, i
   >>>: one, welcome your input.

Well actually Nuclear IS an alternative power supply. The reason it
"does not belong here" is because this is HOME powers. When Ronco comes
out w/the Mr. Fusion, then it WILL be on topic.

HHC>>>Discussions should then be limited to wind, solar, hydro, and crop/manur
   >>>based systems, specifically excluding all discussion of fossil based fue
   >>>(propane, butane, etc.), nuclear, and grid-energy derived hydrogen fuels
   >>>EVs.  If discussion of any of these is to be encouraged, the term 'renew
   >>>should be deleted from the newsgroup name.

HHC>>>Personally, I'd like to see more discussion focused on the environmental

Fido (and Internet) already have plenty of environmental confs. USE
them. Leave Home Powers the way it is.


eric


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Orwellian Dict.- Clinton: The Administration of Newspeak.


From DBHolmes@aol.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:35 EDT 1994
Article: 1583 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: water heat
Date: 10 Sep 1994 18:24:35 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 8
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9409101402.tn687843@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Brian Dombrowski asked for assistance with a solar system to heat hot water:

I'd suggest you contact the Florida Solar Energy Center for advice on solar
domestic water heater systems. They are in Cape Canaveral. Phone:
407-783-2571.

DBHolmes



From DBHolmes@aol.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:36 EDT 1994
Article: 1584 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: DBHolmes@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: water heat
Date: 10 Sep 1994 18:25:44 -0000
Organization: renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 83
Sender: daemon@bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9409101403.tn687901@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblue.oit.unc.edu
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jeff Straub's reply to Brian Dombrowski's request for suggestions on solar
domestic hot water heating systems contains a couple of excellent ideas that,
in my experience, are not commonly understood. I'd like to emphasize them, by
describing how our system is designed and how it functions.

* First, in most climates in the U.S., it is not economically practical to
attempt to get 100 percent of your hot water heated by the sun, throughout
all 12 months of the year. Therefore, you'll need a back-up energy source, to
supplement what Ole Sol can provide.

* Second, your needs for hot water vary dramatically, from hour to hour, and
from one day to the next. If everybody in the house takes a shower in the
morning, and then you do all your family's laundry right after breakfast, you
will have a very large need for hot water on laundry day mornings!

So, to deal with these circumstances, and to reduce the total system costs,
we put in a much smaller tank than Jeff did, just a 50 gallon tank, to store
water heated by the sun. This is a very well insulated, stainless-steel tank
- 12 inches of fiberglass blankets wrapped around the sidewalls and ends of
this tank.

The outflow pipe (insulated) from this tank runs a few feet to a much smaller
(but well insulated) stainless tank, holding only about 4 gallons of water,
an electrical heating element and a thermometer well. From this heater tank,
hot water flows throughout the house, to the kitchen and bathrooms.

If the solar tank is full of heated water, when you turn on the hot water
faucet, the solar heated water will flow through the heater tank, but the
heater will not come on, as the water is above the thermostat set-point
(107). If, on the other hand, you've just run a load of  laundry and both
teenagers had showers right before that, and its raining outside, then the
electrical element will come on, providing "instantly heated" hot water.
(Max. temps in late afternoon run 125-135 deg. F. We have a rather small
solar panel, of about 42 sq. ft of black copper absorber plate, mounted
inside a greenhouse. All the experts told us that putting the panel in the
greenhouse was a mistake, as too much solar energy would be lost going
through the double-glazed greenhouse. But, the air surrounding the panel,
when the panel is working, is about 80-85 deg.F, which dramatically cuts down
on the losses from the panel to the surroundings. Hence we get fairly
constant amounts of heated water all year round, compared with the much
larger (60-80 sq. ft.) rooftop panels of our neighbors, which produce more
hot water than they can use in the summer, but only about 25 percent of their
needs in Dec/Jan. To me, their installations are examples of poor system
design; too much invested in too large panels, trying to meet the wintertime
needs.)

Our large tank seldom drops below about 80-85 deg.F, even when fed with 42-43
deg.F water in February. The small tank takes about 7-8 minutes to heat up
(4.5 kW heater element, 220 V). Yes, this does mean that on rainy or snowy
days, you need to wait about 7-8 minutes between consecutive showers, and it
means that showers are limited in length, as the water will cool down after
about the same length of time, depending on the water flow rate you select
with the adjustable-flow shower heads. 

Our experience (Boston area, family of 4) is that we pay the local electric
utility about $100 each year for, roughly, 1,000 kWh/year of back-up water
heating. (separate meter; kWh costs have risen steadily from about 8 to about
11 cents/kWh now, but the kids have left the house so that our annual elec.
bill for hot water has stayed between $89 and $113 during the past 14 years.)
We use electrical power every week of the year. Nov. and Dec. are the most
expensive months; darkest weather, and perhaps more visitors, too. May, and
Sep/Oct tend to be the lowest months for elec. usage. The latter months are
also typically the months with lowest humidity, brightest sunshine, and the
sun is still fairly high in the sky.

In summary, our experience suggests that two tanks is better than one, just
as in Jeff Straub's case. Use plenty of insulation -- it's very cheap. Then
having done these two things, consider reducing the size of the panel, saving
back all the money you just spent for an extra tank and insulation! Works
like a charm!

To those of you who believe in the value of information, especially immediate
feedback, I have another suggestion: put bright red signal lights in the
bathrooms and kitchen, wired to the electrical heating element on the small
tank. Then, when you are using hot water provided by electricity, the light
comes on to tell you this. We found that everyone, including the kids and the
houseguests, quickly learned to be very prudent with hot water usage when the
light came on!

Yours for a sunny and solar-powered world.

DBHolmes



From dougmclean@aol.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:37 EDT 1994
Article: 1585 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dougmclean@aol.com (DougMcLean)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Need efficient chest freezer
Date: 10 Sep 1994 17:15:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <34t7kq$nei@search01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello all.  We are looking for a high-efficiency 25 cubic foot chest
freezer.  (Our farm runs off a 1.5 kW small hydro.)  The best we have
found is GE model FH25DS.  It's sticker rated at 570 kWH/yr, or 65 W
continuous,  (These ratings are for 70 degrees, no-load.)

Does anyone know of a more efficient model we should check into, or of a
summary of freezer efficiencies?  Reliability, durability, price, and
ozone-friendly freon are other factors we want to consider.

Thanks.

Doug McLean


From billp@cerfnet.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:38 EDT 1994
Article: 1586 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!news.cerf.net!cerfnet.com!billp
From: billp@cerfnet.com (Bill Power)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: mast mounted generators
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 15:18:54
Organization: Power Computer Services
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <billp.44.000F511D@cerfnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: default30.usa.cerfnet.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Status: O
X-Status: 

I am looking for a source for a generator of this type or plans for same.
Are ther any .ftp sources?

Bill


From jbvb@elf.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:39 EDT 1994
Article: 1587 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usenet.elf.com!jbvb
From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: water heat
Date: 10 Sep 1994 22:56:45 GMT
Organization: ELF Communications
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <34tdjd$95p@usenet.elf.com>
References: <1994Sep9.134333.10750@lds.loral.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Status: O
X-Status: 

dombrows@lds.loral.com (Brian Dombrowski, 5424) writes:

>Has anyone had any experience for using solar to heat water
>for home use in either a solar assisted or sole solar
>configuration?

I've got a 30-tube Thermomax collector (evacuated tubes with a heat
pipe to a manifold at one end) heating a 50:50 propylene glycol loop
which runs from my roof to a 120 gal. Vaughn-Sepco tank with their
add-on heat exchanger.  It uses a conventinal hot-water circulating
pump to move the glycol.  The solar-heated water passes through an
propane-fired Aquastar tankless water heater in case it isn't hot
enough.  Last winter my SHW tank was at about 20C in the coldest
months, this summer it has been up around 50C.




--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From kowens@teleport.com Sat Sep 17 22:18:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1588 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!news.teleport.com!news.teleport.com!not-for-mail
From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: water heat
Date: 10 Sep 1994 19:47:04 -0700
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <r3aSkS9cpUoL069yn@teleport.com>
References: <9409101403.tn687901@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: elaine.teleport.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9409101403.tn687901@aol.com>, DBHolmes@aol.com wrote:
> 
> To those of you who believe in the value of information, especially immediate
> feedback, I have another suggestion: put bright red signal lights in the
> bathrooms and kitchen, wired to the electrical heating element on the small
> tank. Then, when you are using hot water provided by electricity, the light
> comes on to tell you this. We found that everyone, including the kids and the
> houseguests, quickly learned to be very prudent with hot water usage when the
> light came on!

This sounds like a good idea, we are using a green light to indicate
when execess solar electricity is availiable from the PV's and it
helps us manage our usage.  But, how would you wire a light on
the water heater?  Use a relay to trigger the light when the
water is being heated?

Jeff - <Vote with your lifestyle, go solar>
-- 
kowens@teleport.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81)


From CYBURG@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:40 EDT 1994
Article: 1589 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!CYBURG
From: CYBURG@psybbs.durham.nc.us (CYBURG)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <0de_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 04:55:09 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-636
Lines: 15
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cyburg@aol.com (CYBURG)
Date: 28 Aug 94 23:55:09 GMT

We use a Solarjack jack pump.  It is not a submersible but looks like an
oil derreck and has a sucker rod and cylinder that goes down the well.   
It pumps 1 1/2 gals per minute from 650ft using  10 M55 (53w ea.)  The
diameter of our drop pipe is 1 and 1/2 inches.  Our equipment not counting
our well costs about $10,000.  We get about 1000gals per day max.  
So when you pump with solar whether you are using submersible pump or 
jack pump you usaully pump during the day when the sun shines into a
holding tank.  Getting 10 gallons a minute like you do with your generator
would be extremely expensive.  You need to decide how many gallons  per
day you NEED to pump.

Cynthia


From Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:41 EDT 1994
Article: 1590 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Harry.H.Conover
From: Harry.H.Conover@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: will this work???
Message-ID: <0df_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 07:53:25 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]The Internet Access Company
Lines: 118
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: conover@max.tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Date: 29 Aug 94 02:53:25 GMT

rarnold@teleport.com wrote:
: I came across a photocopy from a kid's science or electricity
: experiment book (sorry, didn't write down reference).  It looks
: fascinating!!!   Do you believe it will work?  Is there an
: acceptable (But cheaper) substitute for the graphite?  Where
: might I find directions to make a fuel cell powered by alcohol?

: | THE FUEL CELL
: |    
: |     What is a fuel cell?  It is an electrochemical device for 
: | converting the chemical energy in fuels directly into 
: | electricity.
: |
: |     Why is it of high interest to scientists today?  Because it 
: | can operate with two or three times the efficiency of other
: | fuel-burning power producers.  Thus, the fuel cell, although
: | not an energy source in itself, could help make our present fuel
: | supply last years longer than expected.
: |
: |     Many scientists see the fuel cell playing a major role someday 
: | in providing electricity for automobiles and homes.  Even now, 
: | fuel-cell systems are being developed for use as power plants for
: | shopping centers and similar sites.  Small systems have already
: | been used successfully in spacecraft.
: |
: |     In many ways, the fuel cell is like a battery.  It contains no 
: | moving parts, is quiet, and wastes no energy as heat.  Furthermore,
: | it gives off no fumes.  And, like a battery, it has electrodes and
: | an electrolyte.
: |
: |     But unlike a battery, the fuel cell will continue to produce 
: | electricity as long as an oxidant, such as air or oxygen, can be 
: | fed to the electrodes.  In most batteries, one of the electrodes
: | serves as the fuel and is used up during operation, only the fuel
: | cell's electrodes are never used up.  Only the fuel.
: |
: |     There are several types of fuel cells.  Some use hydrogen as
: | fuel.  Others use ammonia, alcohol or various hydrocarbon fuels.
: | But even though they may work differently, all of them acchieve
: | the same result: They produce electricity directly from fuels in 
: | an efficient manner.
: |
: |     Unfortunately, however, scientists have to solve some serious
: | problems before fuel cells can help ease our energy crisis.  Two of
: | these are the high cost and the short lifetime of the fuel cell.
: |
: | EXPERIMENT 9: Making a "Fuel Cell"
: |
: | THINGS NEEDE: A nonmetallic mesh tube, such as a woman's plastic
: | hair roller, measuring about 3" long by 1" in diameter. 3 small
: | rubber bands or some string. Thin sheet of zinc or galvanized 
: | steel 3+1/2" by 2".  A large gauze pad (see Text).  A tablespoon or
: | so of natural powdered graphite (One tube of powdered graphite
: | lubricant should do the trick).  Flour.  Salt.  2 small bowls.
: | 
: |      Making a fuel cell would be easy if we had the right materials.
: | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
: | to get in small quantities.  So let's take an easier path.  Let's
: | build a device that is considered to be a type of fuel cell.  
: | It uses zinc as the fuel (one electrode), air as the oxidant (the
: | other electrode) and saltwater as the electrolyte.
: |
: |     First, pour all the graphite into a bowl.  Next, in a seperate
: | bowl, prepare a binder of 1 part flour and 4 parts water.  Then add 
: | the binder to the graphite, a little at a time, and stir.  What we
: | want to do is to end up with a thick paste, like peanut butter.
: |
: |     Now from the gauze pad cut two strips as wide as the mesh tube
: | (hair roller) and about 7" long.  If you don't have gauze, try a
: | paper towel; fold it in 4 layers and cut it to size.
: |
: |     On a portion of one of these strips, spread all the graphite 
: | paste (messy, isn't it).  You need cover only the first 3" of
: | length, but cover the entire width of this 3" portion.  Then place
: | the mesh tube on the graphite and wrap the strip around the tube.
: | The graphite will be facing the meshwork, of course.
: |
: |     Put the rubber bands or string around the gauze, and set the 
: | unit aside to dry (overnight, at least).  That takes care of the
: | air electrode for our "fuel cell".  You may be wondering what part 
: | the graphite plays in the air electrode.  Without getting too 
: | technical, it allows the oxygen in the air to enter the electro-
: | chemical reaction.
: |
: |     For the zinc electrode, roll the length of the zinc or galvanized
: | steel into a tube small enough to fit inside the air electrode 
: | (but don't insert it yet).  Then wrap the second gauze strip around
: | the zinc.
: |
: |     After the air electrode has had a chance to dry out, insert the
: | wrapped zinc electrode into the tube core.  It should be a snug fit.
: |
: |     We still need an electrolyte.  So dissolve a tablespoon of salt
: | in two or three tablespoons of hot water, and pour this electrolyte
: | into a saucer.  That completes all the preparations for the fuel
: | cell.  Now, will it work.  Let's see 
: .
: | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
: Ralph D. Arnold
: P.O.Box 889
: Oregon City, OR   97045
: rarnold@teleport.com


These materials are dangerous and difficult to obtain????  Zinc, graphite,
salt?  Guess I don't understand the basis for your comment.  Could you
elaborate, since the materials discussed in your posting are among the
most benign substance encountered on Earth.

I do have a major problem with the experiment itself, because what is
constructed would seem to consist of an ordinary Zinc-Carbon battery
type apparatus, which has almost no relationship to fuel cell technology
beyond the point that both produce electricity.

                                        Harry C.


From Eric.F_.Richards@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:42 EDT 1994
Article: 1591 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Eric.F_.Richards
From: Eric.F_.Richards@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Eric F. Richards)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: will this work???
Message-ID: <0e0_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 08:52:07 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 25
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu (Eric F. Richards)
Date: 29 Aug 94 03:52:07 GMT

> : | 
> : |      Making a fuel cell would be easy if we had the right materials.
> : | Trouble is, the right materials are either dangerous or difficult
> : | to get in small quantities.  So let's take an easier path.  Let's
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> : |
> 
> These materials are dangerous and difficult to obtain????  Zinc, graphite,
> salt?  Guess I don't understand the basis for your comment.  Could you
> elaborate, since the materials discussed in your posting are among the
> most benign substance encountered on Earth.
> 

I think the highlighted comment sez it all -- the original poster cut too
much context from the comment.  HP #35 has two articles on the theory and
practice behind a proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell, for those
with the right tools and excess $$$$$ to try it themselves.

Regards,

Eric F. Richards
efricha@tigger.cs.colorado.edu


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1592 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Computer Conversion
Message-ID: <0e1_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 19:18:09 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 30
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 29 Aug 94 14:18:09 GMT



On 25 Aug 1994, Michael Davis wrote:

> Hi William,
> 
> turning off the monitor, sound, and printer. He runs a small BBS with 
> it and built the system after killing a few of those little UPS.
> 
I have used probably close to a hundred APC (American Power Conversion)
battery backup systems in environments ranging from poultry processing plants
to corporate offices to feed mills to peanut processing sheds.  I've had
maybe one unit fail (not counting the inevitable battery replacements).
The Biggest Reason I have see for failures in standby systems is people
who plug surge protectors into the output of these units.  DO NOT PLUG
A SURGE SUPPRESSOR INTO A STAND-BY POWER SUPPLY - they will both eventually
fry !  The reason ?  the output of these units is NOT a sine wave, it is
rich in harmonics, and basically the surge suppressor works real hard
to "suppress" a lot of the output from your stand-by.  I also find a lot
of improper wiring but most units alarm on that.  If your buddy is 
blowing up a lot of units I'd say 1) Buy APC they make a good product,
stand behind it, and pay for damage to equipment plugged in to the unit
if it gets surge damaged  2)  Get rid of any downstream surge protection
3) Make sure the unit is adequately sized  4) Check your wiring  5) Put
your wallet back in your pocket - APC units are VERY reasonable in price.
Good Luck
Randy


From Lorne.MacNeil@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:43 EDT 1994
Article: 1593 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Lorne.MacNeil
From: Lorne.MacNeil@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Lorne MacNeil   )
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Deep Freeze in Mountain Hole
Message-ID: <0e2_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 20:06:38 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]Nova Scotia Technology Network
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: lmacneil@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Lorne MacNeil   )
Date: 29 Aug 94 15:06:38 GMT

In article <9407267779.AA777903098@MAIL.FWS.GOV> droeges@MAIL.FWS.GOV writes:
>
>Will writes:
>     
>>He also has a great Idea for his deep freeze. Dig a hole in the side 
>>of a hill, install a well insulated door. In the winter spray water 
>>inside and build up a large layer of ice. Once complete cover the ice 
>>with sawdust. Close the door and use all winter and summer. Repeat next 
>>winter. Has anyone tried this?
>     
>     
>     This might function as a freezer in the winter but would only get you 
>     down to refrigerator levels in the summer.  I was in Central Siberia 
>     last summer and locals there dig 20 foot holes into the permafrost.  
>     They put a trap door on top and a ladder to the bottom.  During the 
>     winter they keep the opening cracked so that the cold freezes the soil 
>     solid, but not too much snow gets in.  The pit then stays pretty cold 
>     all summer long, but becomes pretty slimy and skanky by fall.

I once visited "ice caves" in the Rocky Mountains (approximately 60 miles 
west of Calgary, Alberta. It was early July with temperatures of about 80F 
outside. About 20 feet back in the cave, there was ice on the floor with the 
layer getting thicker the further you went back. I don't know whether it 
lasted for the whole summer or not.


From William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:44 EDT 1994
Article: 1594 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!William.Lord
From: William.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us (William Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unscubscribe
Message-ID: <0e3_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 29 Aug 94 21:15:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 4
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: wlord@bu.edu (William Lord)
Date: 29 Aug 94 16:15:02 GMT

unsubscribe renew-energy


From Mark.E_.Thornton@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:45 EDT 1994
Article: 1595 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Mark.E_.Thornton
From: Mark.E_.Thornton@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Mark E. Thornton)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: What does RV stand for?
Message-ID: <0e4_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 00:11:41 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]The University of Birmingham, UK
Lines: 13
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: M.E.Thornton@bham.ac.uk (Mark E. Thornton)
Date: 29 Aug 94 19:11:41 GMT

For over a year now I have been learning all about solar energy, but I
still can't work out what 'RV' stands for.

Any kind person wants to help me sleep sounder at night, please mail
to:
        mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk

and apologies for being a dullard :-(

Mark


From Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1596 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Randy.K_.Wilson
From: Randy.K_.Wilson@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Randy K. Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: What does RV stand for?
Message-ID: <0e5_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 03:12:02 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: rwizard@america.net (Randy K. Wilson)
Date: 29 Aug 94 22:12:02 GMT


The choice for "what does RV stand for" are as follows:

         1) Really Violent
         2) Random Voltage
hint>    3) Recreational Vehicle

P.S. Sometimes I'm a "dullard" too ;)


On 29 Aug 1994, Mark E. Thornton wrote:

> For over a year now I have been learning all about solar energy, but I
> still can't work out what 'RV' stands for.
> 
> Any kind person wants to help me sleep sounder at night, please mail
> to:
>         mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk
> 
> and apologies for being a dullard :-(
> 
> Mark
> 


From Willliam.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:46 EDT 1994
Article: 1597 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Willliam.Lord
From: Willliam.Lord@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Willliam Lord)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <0e6_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 30 Aug 94 05:59:43 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 11
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: wlord@bu.edu (Willliam Lord)
Date: 30 Aug 94 00:59:43 GMT

unsubscribe renew-energy

Professor William Lord
Boston University
College of Communication
640 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617 353-5974


From Robert.Cinq-Mars@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:47 EDT 1994
Article: 1598 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Robert.Cinq-Mars
From: Robert.Cinq-Mars@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Robert Cinq-Mars)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Energy Loss
Message-ID: <0e7_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 23:16:24 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]University of Rhode Island / Colleg
Lines: 6
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: cinqmarr@vader.egr.uri.edu (Robert Cinq-Mars)
Date: 31 Aug 94 18:16:24 GMT

Does anyone know approximately what percentage of energy is
lost by putting the generator at the bottom of the mast on
a wind turbine as opposed to the top?


From Bruce.A_.Rawles@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:48 EDT 1994
Article: 1599 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Bruce.A_.Rawles
From: Bruce.A_.Rawles@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Bruce A. Rawles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <0e8_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 01:56:19 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]renew-energy mailing list
Lines: 47
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bar@empress.gvg.TEK.COM (Bruce A. Rawles)
Date: 31 Aug 94 20:56:19 GMT

>@19:46 on 08-21-94, Greg Nudd said (to All) this:
>> Bear in mind, though, that you can minimize this risk by buying an
>> efficient engine and keeping it well tuned. 
>
>And you could eliminate it by using vegetable-based fuel (Hemp-seed oil comes 
>to mind <grin>)....  I believe the Diesel engine was originally developed/run 
>with vegetable oil....  Between the Hearst empire with all those logs waiting 
>to go to paper mills, and the petro-chemical companies that wanted to make 
>plastics/fuel/etc. from crude oil, Hemp didn't stand a snowball's chance of 
>staying legal in '37.
>
>... Hemp paper saves trees! (or would, if it were legal!!)

I heard an interesting discussion on the radio a few months ago by
a fellow who had been to Lake Baikal (spelling?) in Russia where
hemp was once grown before military involvement shifted agricultural
priorities. His suggestion was to grow the stuff there again, boosting
their economy, export to Mexico where a plant grows that can be used
as an environmentally sound glue (unlike the nasty stuff used in
wood-based plywood and particle board), boosting their economy and then
legally import into this country boosting our construction economy with
a stronger building material at 4 times the yield per acre. The only
"casualties" are those determined to deforest temperate rainforests in
this country. Sounded like a pretty interesting idea to me ... and great
way to use awful law (NAFTA) to best advantage; I find it amusing how
many emperors are naked! :-)

An article my wife found in Vegetarian Times (?) talked about how hemp
was promoted by George Washington as an ideal agricultural product,
comprised the fabric of a parachute that saved George Bush's life, and
Civil War history was "rewritten" in a museum somewhere to lie about
what soldiers uniforms were made out of so as not to "confuse" students.
I'm not an advocate of smoking the stuff (though tolerant of those who
do), but it sure seems like the time has come to save our forests AND our
economy by legalizing something far more innocuous than tobacco (which
I hold largely responsible for my fathers early demise, incidentally).



==================================================================
Bruce Rawles (bar@empress.gvg.tek.com) The paradigms I embrace 
"Nothing real can be threatened."      don't necessarily represent 
- ACIM                                 those of GVG or any others
==================================================================


From Bob.Hiltner@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:51 EDT 1994
Article: 1600 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Bob.Hiltner
From: Bob.Hiltner@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Bob Hiltner)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Boats capturing energy...
Message-ID: <0e9_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 31 Aug 94 23:24:20 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Lines: 88
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: bobhilt@eskimo.com (Bob Hiltner)
Date: 31 Aug 94 18:24:20 GMT

Harry H Conover (conover@max.tiac.net) wrote:
: Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote:
: : I was sitting around the table saturday discussing an idea I've had for 
: : some time, which I've never been able to visualize as an actual device 
: : until now.  What I see is that on sailboats, there is an incredible 
: : amount of force from the sail, none of which is used to generate 
: : electrical power for the boat.  First I thought of small wind generators, 
: : but don't think that really captures any of the force.  Then i came to 
: : two ideas which I think might have merit.

: : One: utilize the boats pitching motion and weight to drive a whale-tail 
: : ratchet powered generator.  This would rely on the wave motion of the 
: : boat to flip the tail up and down (the most hydro-dynamic shape would be 
: : optimal).  In other words, the boat pitching up and down through a (say) 10

: : degree arc would give the whale 10 degrees of arc to ratchet back and 
: : forth.  The resistance to this force would be regenerative to the battery 
: : system.  The force is essentially lost otherwise, I believe 
: : (vibration/heat).  This is not like a dragged water-powered generator 
: : which would slow the boat.  It is more akin to capturing some of the 
: : "spring" effect of the boats bouyancy in the water (i.e., it doesn't rely 
: : on friction/drag).   Does anyone see a problem with this type of device?

: Sure, the problem is one of violating the conservation of energy.  In
: doing this, you are taking energy away from the overall wind-boat-water
: dynamic system.  Since the only source of energy here is the wind,
: energy absorbed from the dynamic equilibrium would effectively slow
: the ship (probably not by much, though).  Since sailboats are already
: incredibly slow beasts, sailors are critical about any losses in
: forward speed.

My feeling is that this is ok for two reasons.  First, you would need to 
take relatively negligible energy from the system to give your electrics 
a pretty good charge, so it wouldn't be a significant drain on the 
"system's" energy.  Second, I believe the energy I'm talking about is 
eventually moving grains of sand on a beach somewhere--i.e., it is 
converted to waves by the displacement of water by the hull.  I don't 
believe we're talking about force that particularly helps the forward 
motion of the boat.

: Another factor here is the pitching action of the sailboat itself,
: the dynamics of which are critical to safety and stability in high
: seas.  Sailboat hulls are carefully designed and tuned to maintain
: stability, under fairly large angles of heel.  (Sailboats aren't
: vertical when under sail.)  The boat pitches to accomodate ocean
: swell effects.  If you dampen the hull reaction to the 
: forces of the water, you can end up being swamped by a following
: sea, or porpoise into an on-coming swell, effectively becoming
: a submarine very quickly.

Well, yes, this would dampen the hull action.  But my guess is that it 
would be negligible for the amount of power required, and it would 
probably be trivial to set up the system so it just follows in 'neutral' 
when the seas get too gnarly (turn the thing off or remove it from the 
water...)

: No, no, no.....    ;-)

: Sheets determine sail trim, and sail trim is **very** critical, where
: even a small change can halve the speed of the ship.

Yah, well I know the trim idea is critical, so I probably should have 
junked this idea before I even had it :-)  The thing is, there is  SO 
MUCH power in this system, and the electrics use SO LITTLE, that there 
should be something that can convert a small fraction of the power 
without significant negative impact to the speed of the boat.

: : So.  Comments please.  My feeling is that the whale-tail is a better 
: : idea, and it sounds feasible to me.

: Keep on thinking about these things, because you're raising some
: interesting ideas.  There are probably enough sailors around here 
: to critique them vis-a-vis possible interaction with sailing
: principles.

:                                    Harry C.

Thanks Harry.  Just another "dime-a-dozen" idea....  I am hoping one of 
these will turn into the "why didn't I think of that" type of simple but 
very effective inventions.

--
Bob Hiltner <bobhilt@eskimo.com>
"It is not enough to do well (and I hope you do), you must also do good" 
                                                                   ^^^^


From James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:52 EDT 1994
Article: 1601 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!James.VanBokkelen
From: James.VanBokkelen@psybbs.durham.nc.us (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Jack Pumps
Message-ID: <0ea_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 2 Sep 94 06:50:49 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]ELF Communications
Lines: 42
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: jbvb@elf.com (James VanBokkelen)
Date: 2 Sep 94 01:50:49 GMT

Dave.Hassler@p35.f290.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Hassler) writes:

>...  Dad wants to mount the motor at the top of the well
>and the rod down the casing to, say, 450 ft., with the suction rod working the
>pump at the bottom....

You don't say what your static water level is, but I assume fairly far down...

>... Last night he was talking about putting check valves in
>the 1 1/4" pipe that comes up every 30 ft or so to ease in the drawing up of
>the water such a great distance.

More than 1 check valve is redundant, and may restrict flow more than
you want.  Having 1 check valve near the pump will keep the pressure
off the pump's internal valves during the downstroke, and this may get
you water at the surface faster when you start pumping, by keeping it
from leaking out when the pump is off.  Keep in mind that when (not
if) you haul out the pipe, it will be a *lot* heavier with the water
in it...

>... Dad says this is easier and mechanically more
>sound that running all that DC wiring (450 ft of it) down the well and losing
>voltage.  Me, I'm not so sure.  Wiring seems more efficient than a physical,
>*moving* rod.  What do you think?

You'd need a fairly heavy-duty 24V submersible to lift 450'.  Ask the
vendors what they've got, what the service intervals are, and how much
current they need so you can figure out what size wire.  Both jack &
submersible pumps have moving parts down at the end of many feet of
heavy pipe.  The submersible puts the motor & wiring down there, which
is less of a problem than it was 20 years ago.  The jack pump has a
moving rod in the same shaft as the pipe, which can cause wear.  Also,
unless the jack pump has a *big* flywheel (remember classic oil-field
jack-pumps?), you can't use the momentum gained on the downstroke to
make up for the weight of the rod on the upstroke - the jack pump may
well require a larger motor & more PV panels.
--
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
jbvb@{vax.ftp.com, asylum.sf.ca.us}			South Hampton, NH


From Carrie.Schneider@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:53 EDT 1994
Article: 1602 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!Carrie.Schneider
From: Carrie.Schneider@psybbs.durham.nc.us (Carrie Schneider)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel Pollution
Message-ID: <0eb_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 1 Sep 94 23:41:52 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]National Renewable Energy Laborator
Lines: 27
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: carries@syssrv3.nrel.gov (Carrie Schneider)
Date: 1 Sep 94 18:41:52 GMT

>I'n curious about the notion that veggie-based oils would be
>less pollutting.  Are there data to support this? 

Yes, these are data to support this, and more all the time. A lot of
it appears in obsurce journals, though.  1.	Masjuki H, Zaki AM,
Sapuan SM. A rapid test to measure performance, 
emission and wear of a diesel engine fueled with palm oil diesel.
Journal of the American Oil Chemists Society 
1993;70:1021. showed that CO emmisions are reduced 9 times and
sulfer in bio-diesel is 50 times lower than that in the diesel
tested. NOx emmisions are about the same for both, however. In
addition, much of the incomplete combustion of diesel is apparently
related to the aromatic content of the fuel (sorry - don't have a
ref right here) - bio-diesel is very low in aromatics because the
source is fatty acids from veg oil, which are straigth-chain
hydrocarbons.



-- 
Carrie Schneider, Ph.D.
National Renewable Energy Lab
1617 Cole Boulevard
Golden, CO 80401 303-384-6119


From E_.Michael.Smith@psybbs.durham.nc.us Sat Sep 17 22:18:54 EDT 1994
Article: 1603 of alt.energy.renewable
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!duke!wolves!psybbs!E_.Michael.Smith
From: E_.Michael.Smith@psybbs.durham.nc.us (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Diesel pollution
Message-ID: <0ec_9409102000@psybbs.durham.nc.us>
Date: 3 Sep 94 06:11:38 GMT
Organization: [Fido] [via Psychotronic BBS]Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 26
X-Mail-Agent: GIGO+ sn 175 at psybbs vsn 0.99 pl1
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: ems@cygnus.com (E. Michael Smith)
Date: 3 Sep 94 01:11:38 GMT

In article <markdmcCvAJGt.7D4@netcom.com> markdmc@netcom.com (Mark McWiggins)
writes:
>I remember seeing references several years back to alternative
>and much cleaner fuels for diesel engines. One guy was running a
>diesel Rabbit on used cooking oil, as I recall. I don't know of any

