From takinfo@kkassoc.com Tue Feb  6 22:01:35 EST 1996
Article: 605 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!csn!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: takinfo@kkassoc.com (K&K Webmaster)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Thermal
Date: 4 Feb 1996 20:29:35 GMT
Organization: K&K Associates
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4f34vf$jar@news-2.csn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.168.106.20
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

The THERMAL CONNECTION: a free on-line thermal magazine for 
thermal engineers and designers.

This Months Features: 
1.)Find out how thermal modelling is used in the development of
exotic fiber optics.

2.)Graphite Fibres can replace heat pipes in low to moderate heat
transfer applications.

3.)Get your FREE radiation calculator.

http://www.kkassoc.com/~takinfo/


From howard.smith@toadhall.com Fri Feb  9 23:38:19 EST 1996
Article: 606 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!toadhall!howard.smith
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Fuel cell meeting
From: howard.smith@toadhall.com (Howard Smith)
Message-ID: <73.108.2064@toadhall.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 08:09:00 -0700
Organization: Toad Hall þ High Octane BBS þ 415-595-2427
Lines: 47

Subject: Fuel cell meeting

All persons interested are invited to attend a joint meeting
of the Silicon Valley chapters of the American Hydrogen Asso-
ciation and the American Association for Fuel Cells at 10AM
on 10 February 1996 at the Peninsula Conservation Center,
3921 East Bayshore, Palo Alto, California USA.

John Gotthold will demonstrate Warsitz Enterprises' latest educa-
tional kit which consists of a proton exchange membrane, hydrogen
fuel cell that powers an included, miniature robot arm that can
be controlled to pick up objects and move them through three
dimensions.

He will also will be showing their "build your own" hydrogen fuel
cell kit, "PIZZA STYLE, BUY IT BY THE SLICE", with all the hard-
ware to assemble your own fuel cell stack with as many cells
(slices) that you wish.

Warsitz Enterprises also sells a very interesting kit that demon-
strates solar-hydrogen energy, fundamental to the so-called
Hydrogen Economy.  The kit consists of a small solar cell, an
electrolyzer, a proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell and a
small fan motor along with clear plastic tubing, wiring, etc. in
a portable box. A manual explains the theory and the operation.

Set it in the sunshine and the motor twirls away. Cover the solar
panel and it takes quite a while before the motor begins to slow.

It sells for $149.95 retail, but there are educational discounts.

If you can't make it to the meeting, their address is

Warsitz Enterprises
POB 3555
San Jose, CA 95156
tel: (408)623-2064
fax: (408)663-4915

Howard H. Smith
Palo Alto, CA
howard.smith@toadhall.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: howard.smith@toadhall.com (Howard Smith)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Feb  9 23:38:21 EST 1996
Article: 607 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!admaix.sunydutchess.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,sci.energy
Subject: Une serre pour Sylvain / A greenhouse for Sylvain
Date: 9 Feb 1996 11:27:37 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 237
Message-ID: <4ffslp$7rf@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu bit.listserv.geodesic:3944 alt.energy.renewable:13946 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5059 alt.solar.thermal:607 alt.home.repair:18581 sci.energy:45632

Suppose Sylvain's Quebec greenhouse were a sort of quonset hut, a commercial
plastic film structure, with curved galvanized pipes,  that looks like this
>from  the top:

                 100'                                    .
 ---------------------------------------                 .
|                              |        |            .   .
|                An            | solar  |           .    .
|          terre noiratre      | closet?|          .     .
| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --------|   30'    . 13' .
|                              .        |          .     .
|                As            .  white?|           .    .
|                              .        |            .   .
 ---------------------------------------    East-->      .
.                                       .                .
.                                       .                .
.                                       .                .
.        shallow reflecting pool        .                .
.                                       .                .
.                                       .                .
.                                       .                .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                .

         view from the top                       view from the east

On an average December day in Montreal, the outdoor temperature is about
21 F and about 540 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falls on a south-facing wall. This
is a not an easy climate for passive solar heating... 

The reflectors above will augment the sun by about 50%, so the amount of sun
that falls on the south side of the greenhouse will be about 810 Btu/ft^2/day.
The reflecting pool also keeps vegetation from growing on the south side,
which would block the sun. It might be made from a single piece of EPDM
rubber, 20' wide x 100' long, costing 30 cents/ft^2. If the glazing were
glass, the pool would keep people with lawn mowers at some distance, but
better still to avoid mowing at all... And the reflecting pool can collect
and store rainwater for use in the greenhouse.

How much heat does this greenhouse need to stay warm on an average day in
December? Suppose it is a commercial greenhouse, made with curved galvanized
pipes on 4' centers and two thin layers of polyethylene film, inflated with
a very small blower. This would have a US R-value of 1.2. The curved surface
is approximately the shape of a cylinder sliced in half lengthwise, so it has
a total area of about PiDL/2 = Pi(30')100'/2 = 5,000 ft^2, divided into north
and south roof/walls with An = As = 2,500 ft^2. Let's ignore the east and west
endwalls and the floor for now. Suppose the temperature inside the greenhouse
is 68 F, 24 hours a day. 

Then the amount of heat that is needed to keep it warm on an average
December day is Eout = 24 (68-21) 5,000 ft^2/R1.2 = 4.7 million Btu/day.
Equivalent to about 40 gallons of oil a day. That's one reason people
don't build real houses out of plastic film.

How much solar heat comes into this greenhouse on an average December day?
According to page 64 of the $35 NRAES-33 Greenhouse Engineering book (3rd
revision, August 1994, written by Robert A. Aldrich and John W. Bartok, Jr.,
published by the Northeast Regional Agricultural Engineering Service,
152 Riley-Robb Hall, Cooperative Extension, Ithaca, NY, 14853-5701,
(607) 255-7654), poly film has a solar transmission of .92, so two layers
should have a solar transmission of about .92 x .92 = .85, and the south-
facing wall area of the greenhouse is about 13' high x 100' long, so the
total solar energy that enters the greenhouse on an average December day
in Montreal will be Ein = .85 x 810 Btu/ft^2/day x 1300 ft^2 = 891,000 Btu,
about 20% of what is needed to keep this greenhouse warm...

Hmmm. How about putting some insulation in the north wall? Suppose we somehow
slip 3 1/2" of R13 foil-faced fiberglass insulation inside the double poly 
film pillow of the north wall, with the foil side facing into the greenhouse.
That way, sun is reflected down from the north side, so the plants will grow
fairly straight rather than always leaning towards the sun ("heliotropism.")
We could paint the outside of the north plastic film white to make it last
a long time. Then the daily heat requirement of the greenhouse becomes

Eout = 24 (68-21) (2500/R1.2 + 2500/R13) = 1128 (2083 + 192)
     = 1128 (2275) = 2.6 million Btu/day,

equivalent to about 22 gallons of oil a day. Better, but still about 3 times
more than the available solar heat.

Hmmm. Let's lower the temperature of the greenhouse at night, to, say 48 F.
Then, if the December day is only 6 hours long,

Eout = (6 (68-21) + 18 (48-21)) 2275 = (282 + 486) 2275 = 1.75 million Btu.

Better, but still about twice as much heat as the sun will supply.

Well, how about a beadwall? (Or perhaps a soap bubble wall?)

If we screw on 1x2 wood strips to the inside and outside curves of the 1.66"
galvanized pipes, and cover the strips with a layer of thin flat polycarbonate
plastic on both sides ($5,000 worth, but it should last at least 10 years),
with some butyl tape and a 1/2" x 1/8" aluminum cap strip on the outside,
and fill the 3.17" cavity it with R3.5/inch polystyrene beads at night, that
will give the south wall an R-value of 3.17 x 3.5 = 11 at night, so

Eout = 6 (68-21) 2500/R1.2 = 588K Btu  south wall, daytime
    + 18 (48-21) 2500/R11  = 110K Btu  south wall, nightime
    +  6 (68-21) 2500/R13  =  54K Btu  north wall, daytime
    + 18 (48-21) 2500/R13  =  93K Btu  north wall, nightime,
			     ---------
     =                       845K Btu/day.

OK. This is slightly less than the average solar input of 891K, so we
can probably make this work. There is still a large heat loss through the
south wall during the day, but this IS a greenhouse... If we somehow made
it taller, we could collect more solar heat in the winter. Or perhaps we
should leave the beadwall closed and turn on some grow-lights when the sun
is dim, or before dawn or after dark in December, like Rudy Behrens does,
ie 10 watts per square foot of high pressure sodium lights. This would add
some backup heat. And in order to actually grow, vs just stay dormant in
winter, plants need a longer day. With this sort of backup heat, we could
probably keep this greenhouse at 68 F, 24 hours a day, which is desirable
for some plants, like poinsettias. Keeping them warmer at night makes them
round and bushy, vs thin and tall. Maybe this is the thing to do in Quebec,
where hydroelectric power is not too expensive...

BTW, I wonder if we could make this a bubble wall instead of a beadwall?
Steve Baer says he's tried this with solar collectors, and bubbles transmit
lots of light, in fact they even reduce the reflective losses from the glazing,
by serving as an index matching fluid :-) so perhaps the bubble wall should
stay in place during the day, too...

But Steve also says the walls of the bubbles themselves are so thin that they
don't block much radiation heat loss, so the bubbles wouldn't be great
insulators for a solar collector, with a high temperature inside. But it
seems to me that they might work well for a greenhouse, with a low temperature
inside... Steve said someone else built a bubble wall beadwall, and published
the results, and Steve was surprised at how good an insulator their bubbles
were. A couple of possible problems with this approach are that the bubbles
might collapse on themselves by gravity if the bubble column were more than
a few feet tall, or that we might have to pump so much air and bubble water
through the glazing that that mass flow would collect and transfer the heat
>from  the inside glazing to the outside glazing, making the bubble wall a poor
insulator, but Steve didn't think those would be serious problems.

Perhaps the bubble wall thickness and insulating value, especially for
radiation insulation, depends on the composition of the soapy water used to
make them. There may be a happy medium, some nice combination of soap,
detergent, glycerin, oils, dyes, etc., that will make for good shortwave
solar transmission and poor longwave IR heat transmission, a good "greenhouse
effect," or high-pass filtering effect, like glass. Perhaps the bubble liquid
should have one composition by day and another by night. Transparent bubbles
by day and opaque bubbles by night. That would not be hard to arrange. This
would be an interesting science fair project, that would not require a lot
of equipment to do.

Making a bubble wall with polyethylene film might be a problem as far as
the film life goes. Consider this quote from the CT Film application note
on page I-8 of the 95-96 Stuppy Greenhouse catalog ((800) 877-5025): 

  Soap or detergent should not be left on film. If film is washed with
  soap or detergent, it is recommended that immediately thereafter the
  film be well but carefully rinsed with water. Do not use soap
  containing "Pine Oil" or other solvents.

Is this only a problem when the soapy liquid dries, or does the plastic
degrade if it is always wet? I don't know. CT Film's sales engineer
Warren Manning at (517) 423-675 may know, or he may know a chemist who
knows. It would be very exciting (to me :-) if someone could make a good
plastic film bubblewall. "Doing more with less," as Bucky Fuller used to
say. "Pathologically frugal," my friends might say. A 4 mil thick x
32' wide x 100' long roll of polyethylene greenhouse film with a 3 year
guarantee costs about $140, about 4 cents per square foot. It is recyclable,
and if one uses alumimum extrusion clamps to attach it, only at the edges
of the structure (this costs about 60 cents per linear foot), changing the
plastic film every three years is not much harder than changing a bedsheet,
on a calm day :-)

BTW, Stuppy also sells a product called "Varishade 2," which turns white
when it is dry and transparent when it is damp. This is a permanent product,
meant to be painted on plastic films. That's another way to control solar
intensity and heat losses. Poly film has almost no "greenhouse effect,"
unlike glass. It loses a lot of heat by longwave IR transmission (77%.)

Beadwall inventor Dave Harrison suggests NOT making a beadwall out of
poly film, because if the film rips or tears, the 660 ft^3 of beads that
get loose may be very unpopular with the neighbors, altho they are
biodegradable, as I recall. Perhaps one could make a good beadwall with
a layer of polycarbonate film on the outside and a layer of polyethylene
film on the inside...

Anyhow, the beads cost on the order of $1/ft^3, and they would fill up
78 55 gallon drums at 8.4 ft^3 per drum, or a row along the south side,
about 50 drums deep by 2 drums high, and one would need 50 vacuum cleaner
motors to make all this work, if one followed the well-proven Beadwall
design. They would want to be sequenced in operation, because altho they
would only operate a few minutes per day, the motors use 7 Amps each...
A more interesting but difficult to design alternative would have only
one or two vacuum cleaner motors and some holes between the drums to
make a common bead store.

So, what would this finally look like? The greenhouse would be 6' off
the ground, sitting on top of a row of drums stacked 2-high, on each of
the long sides. The drums along the south side would be welded together
and filled with beads, or perhaps a lot less bubble water, and the north
side of the greenhouse would have a solar closet holding up the north
benches, consisting of drums stacked 2-high and perhaps 1-deep, ie 100
drums full of water, which would have a layer of fiberglass insulation
on the south side, then an airspace, then a 4' layer of polycarbonate
outside of that. This might also be fed with a fan that brings down some
warm air from an air heater above on a sunny day.

The aisle down the middle of the greenhouse might be filled with an air duct
made from 55 gallon drums welded together end to tend, laid sideways, with
their tops and bottoms removed, with dirt and gravel on top to make a smooth
and elevated walking surface, 4' below the benches. During the day, warm air
>from  the peak of the greenhouse might be blown down and through this duct
with one or two fans, to store that heat during the day.

The north benches might as well be supported by 55 gallon drums as well, in a
peninsular layout with another 200 drums, inside the bead drums. They would
add some desirable thermal mass to the greenhouse, but they wouldn't store
much heat, since they would be at the average greenhouse temperature.
Surrounding them with a polyethylene skirt and blowing some warm air down
>from  the peak of the greenhouse during the day would make them into a lower
temperature solar closet.

What would the average drumwater temperature have to be to store heat for
5 cloudy days in a row? We have 300 drums, ie about 150,000 pounds of water
here (vs the 200 drums full of water that David Boyer and I put into his
2,000 ft^2 poinsettia greenhouse last fall, near Philadelphia), so the drums
will store 150,000 Btu per degree F above the greenhouse temperature.

With the beadwall closed, at 48 F, 24 hours a day, the greenhouse needs

         24 hours (48-21) (2500/R11 + 2500/R13) = 272K Btu/day

to stay warmish inside, so the average drumwater temperature has to be
at least 48 + 5 x 272K/150K = 57 F. This seems very doable. 

The outer layer of drums on the north and south sides should be insulated, eg
with 3 1/2" of fiberglass insulation, covered with poly film. The north
insulation should be dark on the outside, with an airspace under the glazing. 

Nick



From holmesm@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA Mon Mar 11 15:01:51 EST 1996
Article: 628 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!fhs.csu.McMaster.CA!hol

mesm
From: Michael Holmes <holmesm@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: greenhouse heat storage
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:12:05 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.960304121324.5498A-100000@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fhs.csu.mcmaster.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I built a Brace type greenhouse a couple of years ago, largely to
overwinter more tender plants than the house would hold, and to get
a breath of spring in the winter.  It is freestanding and supported
on a deck over a 45 degree slope, for southern exposure
considerations.  The floor plan is 10x12 ft, (too, too small!) with
an 8ft high, 60 degree double glazed south wall and a 2 ft glazed
kneewall, giving an overall height of ~9 ft. The floor, walls and
roof are insulated to R28, and vented with two 2x2 ft vents,
thermally opened, near the peak, and one is fitted with a 
thermostatted fan. Backup heat is from a small electric furnace,
set at 6 C or so.  There is a small concession to heat storage in
the form of  8x 6 g pails of water.
This is all fine in November - January, with a lot of cloud
cover.(We are located in southern Ontario, 43N,80W.)  In February,
when the sun shines and outside temperatures are -10 to -20 C,
inside temperatures can quickly reach 40 C, and I have to vent and
/or shade... a considerable waste.  If I use more water pails in
the sun, I lose light and plant space.  

I am tempted to make a heat exchanger, e.g. an auto radiator near
the peak, and pump water through it into a larger water container
near the back of the greenhouse.  The questions are, how big a heat
exchanger, how fast to pump the water, and how much storage to
moderate the temperature swings?  Secondly, is there a better way?

I'd be glad of comments - even ranting!

Mike








From animale@netcom.com Mon Mar 11 15:01:57 EST 1996
Article: 629 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!animale
From: animale@netcom.com (*)
Subject: Do you know any Solar Desalinization vendors or manufacturers?
Message-ID: <animaleDnx6tu.722@netcom.com>
Summary: Seeking Solar Desalinization (production volume) equipment
Keywords: Solar, Desalinazation
Organization: Play
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:05:53 GMT
Lines: 15
Sender: animale@netcom23.netcom.com

Do you know any Solar Desalinization vendors or manufacturers?
We are looking to purchase (used or affordable if possible) any
production-scale desalinization units suitable for converting
ocean water to drinkable.  Unit should be able to produce a
minimum of 25+ gallons of drinkable water, powered by solar
energy.  If you know of, or have these, please email us at
 
animale@netcom.com
 
Replies here might not get read before they age off, so
please send any replies to the above address.  Thanx!


-- 
[Encrypted]



From zephyr.north@sympatico.ca Fri Mar 15 11:04:39 EST 1996
Article: 636 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!news1.io.org!clio.trends.ca!worldlinx.com!news1.sympatico.ca!news
From: Jim Salmon <zephyr.north@sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photvoltaic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Temperatures and solar radiation
Date: 11 Mar 1996 15:01:52 GMT
Organization: Zephyr North
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <4i1f90$354@news1.sympatico.ca>
References: <3143DEDA.7695@dortmund.netsurf.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp1554.on.sympatico.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22MII (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14478 alt.solar.thermal:636 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5601



Try http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri Mar 15 11:04:39 EST 1996
Article: 637 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!hookup!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!admaix.sunydutchess.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.home.repair,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: A zero-fossil-fuel studio?
Date: 13 Mar 1996 18:00:55 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4i7k37$q8q@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4gv6k9$gt3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4i2i02$2ro@spot.yknet.yk.ca> <4i3qhr$lf@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <fNH$RCA4dZRxEwHh@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47233 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5605 alt.solar.thermal:637 alt.architecture.alternative:6394 alt.home.repair:20112 bit.listserv.geodesic:4343

eteam  <eteam@wirrleac.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>... a "Trombe wall" with some dark-colored insulation
>>on the outside and an air gap between the insulation and glazing and some
>>holes to the inside of the house that opened up during the day was a lot more
>>efficient at collecting and keeping solar heat in the house than a plain old
>>"traditional" Trombe wall, with masonry right behind the glass, with no
>>insulation...
 
>This modified Trombe wall sounds interesting however could you clarify the
>constuction as we are still  a bit confused. i.e. is the dark insulation
>exterior or merley outside a wall sandwiched between glass.

The insulation is north of an air gap under the glass.
I guess this was not very clear.

>Put another way,
>does it go : outside / glass / dark insulation / wall / interior ?
                              ^
                              |
              Almost...        air gap
                              
>If so , how does the heat transfer through the dark insulation ?

The sun warms the air in the low-thermal-mass air gap, and the warm air moves
up and through a hole in the top of the insulation and wall into the house,
then back out of the house into the air gap through a hole in the bottom of
the wall and insulation during the day, circulating between the house and the
air gap. At night, a one-way plastic film damper covering the top hole or the
bottom hole or both, closes to prevent reverse air flow and cooling, and the
air gap quickly gets cold and stays cold all night, losing no heat to the
outside world, except what flows through the rest of the insulated wall. The
two holes might be equal sized, each 5% of the wall area, if this operates by
natural convection, or they might have less area if what moves the air is a
fan in series with a cooling thermostat in the air gap and a heating thermostat in the house. 

Nick

PS: The airflow by natural convection is on the order of 

    Q = 16.6  x Av   x  square root ((Tairgap - Thouse) x h)

    cfm    ft^2 of each hole          degrees F      wall height in feet.



From bwilcox@b-s-g.com Fri Mar 15 11:04:40 EST 1996
Article: 638 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!hilbert.dnai.com!usenet
From: "Bruce A. Wilcox" <bwilcox@b-s-g.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photvoltaic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Temperatures and solar radiation
Date: 15 Mar 1996 04:12:10 GMT
Organization: BSG, Oakland, CA  USA
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <4iaqmq$ssa@hilbert.dnai.com>
References: <3143DEDA.7695@dortmund.netsurf.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dynamic-216.dnai.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14493 alt.solar.thermal:638 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5629

For US weather data for energy calculations try the TMY2 data set 
available on line for 230+ sites at:

http://asd.nrel.gov/projects/rredc/data/solar/tmy2

Bruce Wilcox

Description:

> TMY2 Files
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Brief Summary of the TMY2s
> 
> This directory contains the user's manual and data files for the
> typical meteorological year (TMY) data sets derived from the
> 1961-1990 National Solar Radiation Data Base (NSRDB). Because they
> are based on more recent and accurate data and will make possible
> more accurate performance and economic analyses of energy systems,
> these data sets are recommended for use in place of earlier TMY data
> sets derived from the 1952-1975 SOLMET/ERSATZ data base.
> 
> To distinguish between the old and new TMY data sets, the new TMY
> data sets are referred to as TMY2s. TMY and TMY2 data sets cannot be
> used interchangeable because of differences in time (solar versus
> local), formats, elements, and units. Unless they are revised,
> computer programs designed for TMY data will not work with TMY2
> data.
> 
> The TMY2s are data sets of hourly values of solar radiation and
> meteorological elements for a 1-year period. Their intended use is
> for computer simulations of solar energy conversion systems and
> building systems to facilitate performance comparisons of different
> system types, configurations, and locations in the United States and
> its territories. Because they represent typical rather than extreme
> conditions, they are not suited for designing systems to meet the
> worst-case conditions occurring at a location.
> 
> The TMY2 data sets and manual were produced by the National
> Renewable Energy Laboratory's (NREL's) Analytic Studies Division
> under the Resource Assessment Program, which is funded and monitored
> by the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Solar Energy
> Conversion.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> [Image]  TMY2 User's Manual
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Data Files
> 
> Note: The data files are 235K each in the zipped format. When you
> click on a filename, you will begin a download to your computer of
> the selected file. Currently they cannot be viewed on-line.
> 
> To view list of available files in alphabetical order by state and
> city, click here
> 
> To view list of available files in numerical order by WBAN number,
> click here
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------




From solarae@northcoast.com Wed Mar 20 12:04:42 EST 1996
Article: 639 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!northcoast.com!northcoast.com!solarae
From: solarae@northcoast.com (Edith B. Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Any solar powered A/C?
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 19:36:08
Organization: Northcoast Internet
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <solarae.11.00139AC1@northcoast.com>
References: <4hgeos$shd@bristlecone.together.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bluelake.northcoast.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

In article <4hgeos$shd@bristlecone.together.net> Terry Norton <tenind@together.net> writes:
>From: Terry Norton <tenind@together.net>
>Subject: Any solar powered A/C?
>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 04:11:07 GMT

>Haven't done much of anything related solar for about 12 years.  At that time I
>remember reading   
>some info about using solar heat to do cooling. 
> 
>Have any advances taken place so that a DIYer could construct something without
>having to be a   
>rocket scientist?  The only thing I really knew of that was being tried was
>Absorption Cooling.  But   
>that seemed rather complicated without some specific plans to work from. 
> 
>I live in Vermont, the humidity makes things rather sticky in the summer.  I'd
>like to tinker with this   
>idea somehow if anyone has some ideas.

>Terry Norton 
>tenind@together.net


Try a solar chimney. The basic idea is that you have an area of  "coolth" like 
a basement or some mass under the house below the frost line were the 
temperature is around 55 F. and you provide for a current of air to be sucked 
up from that space by the thermal energy of the suns's rays striking a dark  
hollow column on the south side or roof of the house. If the column is 
attached to theside of the house you will need to insulate it from the house 
so that you do not defeat your purpose of cooling.


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Mar 20 12:04:43 EST 1996
Article: 640 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!psuvm!news.cuny.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.taynet.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.home.repair,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: A zero-fossil-fuel studio?
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 20:21:26 GMT
Organization: Taynet
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4icjc7$d0i@homer.taynet.co.uk>
References: <4gv6k9$gt3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4hoe41$om5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4hvgot$148@nntp.interaccess.com> <4i2i02$2ro@spot.y
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem86.taynet.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47432 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5671 alt.solar.thermal:640 alt.architecture.alternative:6436 alt.home.repair:20459 bit.listserv.geodesic:4415

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>And when you mention "successful" direct gain solar mass walls do you mean
>Trombe walls?

>A few years ago, I spent some time explaining to a local architect, a more
>technical person than most, who had taken a few engineering courses on the
>way to architecting, that a "Trombe wall" with some dark-colored insulation
>on the outside and an air gap between the insulation and glazing and some
>to the inside of the house that opened up during the day was a lot more
>efficient at collecting and keeping solar heat in the house than a plain old
>"traditional" Trombe wall, with masonry right behind the glass, with no
>insulation.

An alternative method is to use transparent insulation material (TIM).
This is a honeycomb structure of transparent polycarbonate, somewhat
like drinking straws at right angles to the wall stuck together  to
form a slab, but stoppered to prevent air convection (sounds like
polar bear fur!).
There is no air flow - heat flow to interior is by conduction - and
temperature control is by external blinds (to stop overheating on
summer days and reduce losses at night).

Construction goes:

low-iron content glass/cavity with motorised blind/TIM/backing sheet
of transparent polycarbonate/cavity (to minimise conduction, closed
horizontally at intervals to minimise air circulation/dense wall with
heat absorbing surface.

This is a bit complex;  however direct solar radiation is not
necessary. It is indicated a well insulated house could have its
entire space heating demand met by a 50m2 TIM wall.

There were several papers presented on this at the
2nd European Conference on Architecture, 4-8 Dec '89, Paris.




From dale@xs4all.nl Mon Mar 25 22:38:18 EST 1996
Article: 641 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!sun4nl!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar Water Heater
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:42:25 +0000
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <314FC4F1.731B@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd03-02.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Sometime this summer I hope to begin building some log cabins at our =

children=B9s farm camp. I would like include some solar energy features in =

these cabins. =


One system I am interested in is a solar water heater, to be used both =

for heating water for baths and also possibly providing warmth in =

certain parts of the house during the day or to a hot tub, etc.
 =

I would like to use long coils of black hose as the primary collector. =


The problem is that in a cold climate, we are in NE Poland,  the water =

can freeze in the pipes during the winter. Most systems compensate for =

this by an elaborate and expensive dual (alcohol-water) system or an =

expensive insulated glass system. I would like to do with with a simpler =

system, and my idea is to place the absorption coils inside the house, =

in a sera (glass sun porch) attached to the south end of the house. The =

porch would not be heated as thoroughly as the rest of the house, just =

keep above freezing during the winter, unless the sun warmes it further.  =


Another idea is to use as the primary heat absorbing coils, a black =

plastic hose that could handle the expansion that would occur when the =

water froze. In this case, only the pump would have to be protected from =

freezing by keeping it indoors. =


Further, I would like to pump the water in this system with a low =

voltage water pump that could be connected directly to a set of solar =

cells without any intervening battery. After all there is no sense =

pumping water when there is no sun. Does such a pump exist?

 Finally, is there any reason why the system shouldn=B9t drain from the =

collector coils whenever the system shuts down, thereby providing =

further protection from freezing?

Using one, or a combination of these ideas, I would hope to be able to =

construct a very inexpensive system.

Can anyone suggest how much and what kind of hose would be required for =

such a system? Are there charts available for calculating this?

Can anyone recommend a good book on this subject?

Is there anyone who has any experience with this sort of system. What =

problems might you foresee? And does anyone know of a pump that could be =

driven directly from solar cells without intervening batteries or =

electronics?

Finally, is there an FAQ for this group?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Dale


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Mar 25 22:38:20 EST 1996
Article: 642 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!admaix.sunydutchess.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,pa.environment,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A bang-bang house
Date: 22 Mar 1996 07:34:26 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 219
Message-ID: <4iu6oi$oau@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47582 alt.architecture.alternative:6467 alt.energy.renewable:14603 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5747 bit.listserv.geodesic:4431 alt.solar.thermal:642

I've been thinking more about thermal storage for heating and cooling...

For many years now, people like Steve Pitney have been building thermal
storage tanks for off-peak electric heating out of plywood boxes lined with
EPDM rubber, which costs about 28 cents/ft^2 and comes in rolls up to 20'
wide and 100' long. It takes 2 or 3 people to lift a roll like that.

                                                       28'
For a new house, we might have         pppppp.......................
one or two EPDM rubber-lined plywood         gi i i                .
boxes in the basement, say 12' long by       gi B i                . 
7' high x 2-4' thick, on top of some         gi B i                .
railroad ties on 4' centers sitting on       gi B i                .  
grade. The plywood or OSB could go on        gi B i                .        
top of the ties, and the tanks would    <- S gi B i                .
run east and west inside the south wall      gi B i                . 
of the basement, with an 8" air gap          d  d d <- glass doors .  32'
underneath. There might be a single          gi B i                .
cement block on grade in the center of    -->gi B i<-- 4-8'        . 
each 4' square to help support the plywood.  gi B i                .  
There would be a few small fans at the       gi B i  ssssssssssss  .     
top to circulate air from south to north     gi B i  s  septic  s  . 
over the top of the boxes, down from         gi B i  s   tank   s  .
the top of the box to the bottom on          gi i i  ssssssssssss  .  
the north side, under the boxes, back        ..................... 
up the south side between the south          p            p
glazing and some insulation, and around      p            p
again. The boxes might be framed by          p  duckweed  p
through-bolting a couple of vertical         p     or     p
2x4s onto each end of each railroad tie,     p  reed bed  p
and screwing the plywood to those with       p            p
a plywood nailer, with drywall screws,       p            p
with a longitudinal 2x4 along each     pppppppppppppppppppp
inside corner at the bottom.
The EPDM rubber would be in one big sheet, folded up like a Chinese takeout
box, with no seams. The box would weigh 200-300 psf on the bottom, with less
force on the sides.

As an alternative, these two thermal masses in the basement might be some
2' diameter x 3' tall 55 gallon drums full of water stacked up 4 high,
horizontally, to make two walls 3' thick and 12' long and 7.19' high, each
containing 22 drums, each weighing about 10,000 pounds, with the drums resting
on grade, and on each other in a hexagonal array, with a wood frame to contain
them. This would be have more surface area than the plywood tank, and leaks
would be less worrysome, and it could be easily dismantled...

This solar closet might be a good place to put a clothesline or a hot tub
or a small woodstove or some fin tube pipe near the ceiling to heat water
in a conventional water heater on the floor above. 

(i is insulation above. B are the boxes. g is glazing. p is a shallow solar
reflecting/wastewater treatment pool, ~ 1' deep x 16' wide x 64' long, divided
in 4 16' x 16' sections, wrapped around the house. The pool would reflect
about 60% of the sun onto the house with a layer of ice on top, and about
6% with no ice. The ice thickness would be controlled by the septic tank 
effluent temperature. The septic tank might be cooled by a carefully-
designed DHW heat exchanger or some outside ventilation air.)  

The basement could get some nice light from the floor above...

I'm just starting to look at cooling season Philadelphia TMY2 hourly weather
data from Eric Swanson. 

I'd like to do a little passive cooling simulation, ventilating a house well
at night to store coolth in its thermal mass, and reducing the ventilation
during the warmer part of the day. 

Some interesting daily highs and lows in the cooling season here are:

day  high  low

141  85 F  58 F        In this Typical Meteorological Year, the hottest days 
157  89    61          still have coolish nights, especially if one slides
176  90    72          a 2 or 3 day window over the data, consistent with
181  93    71          storing coolth somewhere in the structure. I think 
188  91    72          this is now done in commercial buildings, eg in 
190  92    75          elevator shafts, but they probably chill the air
210  90    74          mechanically rather than just ventilating with cooler
226  93    73          night air. A good passive cooling system would clamp 
254  86    66          daytime house temps to the night lows, for starters.

If the solar closet is divided in two halves, say on either side of a
walk-out basement, it seems to me that a house above could have excellent
temperature control, even if it had little thermal mass. One half of the
closet could store coolth and the other store heat over multiple days 
in the spring and fall, in which case there would be a cool source and
a warm source available to drive the house temp actively in either direction,
as in Norman Saunders houses, vs typical solar houses which have at most one
driver. Norman says a well-designed house is as likely to need cooling as
heating on any particular day, even in wintertime...  Another option is
ground-coupled cooling using the basement floor, with a vapor barrier
underneath, and a small dehumidifier near a floor drain. Air movement might
come from the stack effect and/or using the sunspace as a solar chimney. 

Another option is to use reflecting pond water for cooling, eg with a
fan-coil unit or duct heat exchanger or interior fountain.

This data is for a typical year, a mild year, with no temperatures over 100
or less than 0. We hope to get 30 year's worth of hourly data off the NOAA/
NREL Samson CD-ROM soon. Meanwhile, we have these 8760 lines of data to start
with :-)

Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:53:38 -0800
To: nick@ece.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
From: eswanson@atlcom.net (R. Eric Swanson)
Subject: RE: TMY2 Data for Philadelphia

TMY2 Solar Data for Philadelphia, months 1-12
*********************************************
    1st col = Day of year, 1-365
    2nd col = Hour of day
    3rd col = Global horizontal radiation during preceeding hour, Whr/m2
    4th col = Direct normal radiation during preceeding hour, Whr/m2
    5th col = Diffuse horizontal radiation during preceeding hour, Whr/m2
    6th col = Temperature, deg F
    7th col = Dew point Temperature, deg F
    8th col = Relative Humidity, %
******************************************************
  1   1     0     0     0  34  31  88
  1   2     0     0     0  34  31  89
  1   3     0     0     0  34  29  82
  1   4     0     0     0  32  20  61
  1   5     0     0     0  28  16  60
  1   6     0     0     0  25   8  48
  1   7     0     0     0  22  10  60
  1   8    25   143    12  16  -1  46
  1   9   131   588    31  14  -5  42
  1  10   279   779    43  15  -5  40
  1  11   264   258   161  15  -5  40
  1  12   209    70   178  15  -4  42
  1  13   345   408   161  17  -5  37
  1  14   315   425   142  17  -3  41
  1  15   203   335    97  16  -2  43
  1  16   141   511    45  15  -4  42
  1  17    32   171    17  12  -7  42
  1  18     0     0     0  11  -8  41
  1  19     0     0     0  11  -8  41
  1  20     0     0     0  11  -6  46
  1  21     0     0     0  11  -5  48
  1  22     0     0     0  11  -4  50
  1  23     0     0     0  12  -3  50
  1  24     0     0     0  13  -1  53
  2   1     0     0     0  14   1  56
  2   2     0     0     0  16   1  51
  2   3     0     0     0  16   2  53
  2   4     0     0     0  17   2  51
  2   5     0     0     0  17   2  51
  2   6     0     0     0  17   2  51
  2   7     0     0     0  17   2  51
  2   8    19    67    13  17   3  54
  2   9   119   450    42  19   4  51
  2  10   259   659    60  21   4  47
  2  11   270   245   172  24   6  46
  2  12   183    71   151  23   5  45
  2  13   253   140   190  25   7  46
  2  14   364   647   100  27   4  37
  2  15   281   686    62  27   5  38
  2  16   139   493    45  26   3  37
  2  17    29   110    19  25   3  38
  2  18     0     0     0  24   4  42
  2  19     0     0     0  21   4  47
  2  20     0     0     0  21   4  47
  2  21     0     0     0  21   4  47
  2  22     0     0     0  21   4  47
  2  23     0     0     0  20   4  49
  2  24     0     0     0  19   4  51
  3   1     0     0     0  19   4  52
  3   2     0     0     0  19   5  54
  ...
           
Suppose this new house is built into the hill h to the north, with a shallow
monopitched roof sloping up to the south, like this:
            
(Connect the two "r" dots at the top         r
to make the roof.)                           gi                   rttttt
                                          .  gi         .         it   t h
This house might need 50K Btu/day for        gi         .         ittttt
20 days for additional summer cooling   .  s gi         ..........i  h
beyond what is passively available on      s gi                   i
summer nights, ie 1 million Btu.      ? 24'  gi                 h i
                                             gi               h   i
Suppose there is a plywood/EPDM tank t       giii...........h.....i
sitting on the ground as shown above,      s giBi         h       i
full of ice...                    .        c giBi       h         i
                                             giBi     h           i
                                 pppppppppppppiii...h.............i

The tank might be 8' wide x 16' long x 6' deep, built like the basement tanks,
with pressure-treated 2 x 4's and exterior plywood and 4" of foam on the
outside. This would give it a surface area of about 500 ft^2, so over 6 months
it might lose about 180days*24hr*(62-32)*500 ft^2/R20 or 3.2 million Btu of
the 8*16*6*62*144 = 6.8 millon Btu stored in the ice, leaving 3.6 million Btu
available for cooling the house (so the tank could probably be smaller, eg 12'
or 8' long), by letting some cool air flow down into the house, or using a 
chilled water loop.

One might somehow tuck a root cellar in or near the north wall, and it would
be a good place to put or make a refrigerator, and it could dehumidify
the house.

The box would also make a nice gravity-feed 6000 gallon rainwater supply.

The roof might be covered with two pieces of EPDM rubber with a standing seam
in the middle, with 9 1" PVC draindown pipes on 4' centers with holes in them
running from north to south up the roof, to act as sprinklers in winter, to
make ice and warm the roof when it's -10 F outside. On a cold cloudless night
with no wind, the roof may be 10-20 F cooler than the outdoor air, because of
radiation to the night sky. the A small submersible pump and a header at the
bottom of the tank would move the water, which might supercool on the roof
and drain back down the roof and the tank cover into the tank and freeze on
the tank ice surface.

The roof and tank would have about 1000 ft^2 of surface area, so at an
average nightime outdoor temp of 22 F, freezing the tank would take roughly 
6.8 million Btu/(32-22F)/1000 ft^2*R0.7 = 500 hours, ie 21 days. A 100 watt
pump running 500 hours would use $5 worth of electricity per year. 

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Mar 25 22:38:21 EST 1996
Article: 643 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Yet another solar heated swimming pool
Date: 24 Mar 1996 13:53:02 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 152
Message-ID: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47660 alt.energy.renewable:14645 bit.listserv.geodesic:4449 alt.architecture.alternative:6498 sci.environment:88954 alt.home.repair:20777 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5811 alt.solar.thermal:643

So, I'm looking at the $450 15' diameter x 42" deep swimming pool in the 1993
Spring/Summer J C Penny catalog, which would contain about 619 cubic feet of
water, ie about 5,000 gallons or 40,000 pounds of water...

Solar pool heating is easy, compared to other kinds of solar heating, since
temperatures are low, and there's a built-in thermal mass. What would it take
to keep this pool warm all winter, or to make it into a huge outdoor hot tub,
in the 5,500 F degree day climate where I live, near Philadelphia?
 
The biggest problem with solar pool heating is the cover. "Solar pool covers"
have low R-values, usually not more than R1, and they are tinted blue, which
keeps the sun out :-) Suppose we somehow cover the pool with a fairly rigid
R-20 cover, and keep it closed all the time, except when the pool is in use. 

The cover might be a 20' x 20' x 6" thick panel made with 2x6s on 4' centers,
with 6" of fiberglass insulation inside, and 1/4" flakeboard or galvanized
sheet metal on top, with some plastic-coated shiny aluminum foil on the bottom.
Innovative Insulation in Arlington, Texas, sells some shiny tough foil for
mobile home roofs in 4' wide rolls for about 50 cents/ft^2. The pool cover
might be hinged with a pipe along the north edge, with a counterweight, so
it could easily be tilted up to the south at about a 45 degree angle. This
would reflect some winter sun into the pool and reduce the wind when the cover
is open, but the main pool heating would come from a 4' high x 20' long piece
of vertical plastic glazing along the south edge, with an air gap behind that
and some dark-colored straw bales behind that, to act as a solar air heater. 

Suppose the pool were surrounded by straw bales, each 16" x 16" x 36", costing
$2 each, eg 40 straw bales under the pool, and another 70 bales around all
the sides of the pool, to make a 4' high wall around the pool, 6" taller than
the pool, with an average R-value of 20 (?) The bales around the perimeter
could be stacked up and mortared together like giant concrete blocks to make
a deck for the pool with a wide flat edge, and the soft underside of the cover
might deform and sit on the deck to make a good seal when it is closed.

The straw bales under the pool itself could be spread apart to make 8 air
ducts, each 6" wide x 16" deep, running from north to south along the ground,
to allow solar-warmed air from the south glazing to travel across the top
of the pool, under the cover, down the north back wall of the pool, between
the pool and the bales, and under the pool from north to south. This might
work with passive plastic film gravity backdraft air dampers in holes at the
top and bottom of the straw bales behind the glazing, but a PV-powered (-:)
fan would make it work better. The whole ground area should be covered with
some sort of vapor barrier, eg poly film, to keep moisture out of the straw,
and the tops of the ducts below the pool should have some bridging, eg 1/8"
of newspaper with 3 layers of chicken wire on top of that, and an inch of sand
mix cement over that. Let's ignore the heat loss from the ducts to the ground. 

A shallow reflecting pool made from a single piece of 10' wide EPDM rubber
roofing material over a 6" earth berm around the edge would augment the sun
when frozen and keep weeds from growing up in front of the glazing.

It might look like this, not to scale:     ^  (open)      
                                           |
   cccccccccccccccccccc              ccccccccccccccccccccHcccccCW 
    gggggggggggggggggg                g..................P _
    gggggggggggggggggg         <-- S  g  ppppppppppppppp P
    gggggggggggggggggg                g  pppp water pppp P 4'
    gDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDg   r ~~~~~~~~~~ g  ppppppppppppppp P
.........................rprrpprprprp ...................P.............
                         |<--- 8' --->|  |<--- 15' --->| P
                                      |<------ 18' ----->|

    key:                 rprprprp----ccccccccccccccccccccHcccccCW 
                         p           cgsssssssssssssssssss      .
    p is the pool        r           cgs       ppp       s      .
    s is straw           p  EPDM     cgs  p-c- (D) -c-p  HcccccCW
    g is glazing         . rubber    cgs       (D)       s      .
    c is the cover       .           cgsp  -c- (D) -c-  pHcccccCW
    D are hot air ducts  .     20'   cgsp      (D)      ps      .
    rp is a reflecting pool          cgsp  -c- (D) -c-  pHcccccCW
    H is a hinge         .           cgs       (D)       s      .
    P is a post          .           cgs  p-c- (D) -c-p  HcccccCW
    CW is a counterweight.           cgs       ppp       s      .
                         .           cgsssssssssssssssssss      .
                         rprprprp----ccccccccccccccccccccHcccccCW

                         |<--  8' -->|<---     20'   --->|

Suppose that in winter, 1,000 Btu ft^2/day makes it into the single layer
flat polycarbonate glazing, augmented 50% by the frozen reflecting pool
on an average day in December. Then the solar energy input would be 

Ein = 1,000 x 1.5 x 4' x 20' = 120K Btu/day, 

Suppose that during 6 hours of sun on an average day in December,
the outdoor temp is 36 F, and the pool has some sort of R0 cover that
just prevents evaporation, and the air heater air and the pool water
have the same temperature T. 

Then the energy that flows out of the pool during an average December day is

Eout = 6 hours (T-36)  80 ft^2/R1   from the south glazing during the day
    + 18 hours (T-36)  80 ft^2/R20  from the south glazing at night
    + 24 hours (T-36) 400 ft^2/R20  up through the cover all day
    + 24 hours (T-36) 240 ft^2/R20  out through the ENW sides all day

     = (6x80/1 + 18x80/20 + 24x400/20 + 24x240/20) (T-36)

     = (480    +    72    +    480    +    288   ) (T-36)

     = 1320 (T-36), so if Ein = Eout for an average day, we have

1320 (T-36) = 120K or
  
          T = 36 + 120K/1320 = 126.9 degrees F.

Looks good... :-) Suppose we keep the pool at 106 F, eg by allowing some of
the average 30 gallons of rain per day that fall on the pool cover in PA to
flow through the pool and into the reflecting pool, which would keep the pool
cleaner with fewer chemicals. 

How much will the pool cool on a average December day with no sun?

Eout = 24 hours (106-36)  80 ft^2/R20  from the south glazing all day
     + 24 hours (106-36) 400 ft^2/R20  up through the cover all day
     + 24 hours (106-36) 240 ft^2/R20  out through the ENW sides all day

     = (24x70x80/20 + 24x70x400/20 + 24x70x240/20)

     = 6,720 + 33,600 + 20,160 = 60,480 Btu.

Since 1 pound of water loses 1 Btu when it cools 1 degree F, the pool temp
after a day without sun would be roughly 106 - 60,480/40,000 = 104.5 F.

How many 36 F days without sun would it take for the pool to reach 70 F?

The pool has a thermal resistance of R = R20/720 ft^2, so its RC time constant
is RC = R20/720x40,000 Btu/F = 1,111 hours or 46 days.

With no sun at all, and the cover closed, the pool temperature should be about

  T = 36 + (106 - 36) exp(-t/46), over many days, so if T = 70, 

 34 = 60 exp(-t/46), or 0.57 = exp(-t/46), or t = - 46 ln(0.57) = 26 days.

If it were 10 below zero outside for t days without any sun, the pool
might just begin to form a thin layer of ice on top when

 32 = -10 + (106-(-10)) exp(-t/46) ==> t = -46 ln(42/116) = 16.7 days.

Freezing it solid from top to bottom would take another 144 Btu/lb x 40K lb
= 5.76 million Btu, as the pool loses 36K Btu/day, not counting the thermal
resistance of the ice layer, ie at least another 159 days with no sun, at
minus 10 degrees F.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

                                          Tom Smith 


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Mar 25 22:38:22 EST 1996
Article: 644 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Yet another solar heated swimming pool--a correction
Date: 25 Mar 1996 07:25:14 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47686 alt.energy.renewable:14648 bit.listserv.geodesic:4462 alt.architecture.alternative:6500 sci.environment:89003 alt.home.repair:20786 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5830 alt.solar.thermal:644

Seems like I have to go back and fix even the simplest things, even while they
are still on paper, which is a good time to do that. Perhaps this post should
have stewed for a couple of days before posting, but you know how it is when
you get excited about an idea, especially after a dozen espressos :-)

So here's the problem, in the following paragraph--not a large enough ratio of
thermal mass surface area to glazing surface area, in this solar closet. That
ratio should be 10:1 or so, to keep the temperature difference between the
air heater air and the thermal mass low, in this system with thermal mass
indirectly heated by warm air, and make the solar collection efficient, but
the glazing here is 80 is ft^2, and it's really equivalent to 120 ft^2 of
solar heat, with the reflecting pool, and the round pool sides are only 165
ft^2 and the pool bottom only has about 32 ft^2 of surface exposed to the sun-
warmed air, so that ratio is only 2.5:1, as posted. Nobody noticed this, altho
I did get some email from someone who said he "didn't do math," but we should
cover the top with PV and water heating panels and use antifreeze and pumps
and pipes buried in a radiant concrete floor slab under the pool :-)

Please change the following paragraph:

The straw bales under the pool itself could be spread apart to make 8 air
ducts, each 6" wide x 16" deep, running from north to south along the ground,
to allow solar-warmed air from the south glazing to travel across the top
of the pool, under the cover, down the north back wall of the pool, between
the pool and the bales, and under the pool from north to south. This might
work with passive plastic film gravity backdraft air dampers in holes at the
top and bottom of the straw bales behind the glazing, but a PV-powered (-:)
fan would make it work better. The whole ground area should be covered with
some sort of vapor barrier, eg poly film, to keep moisture out of the straw,
and the tops of the ducts below the pool should have some bridging, eg 1/8"
of newspaper with 3 layers of chicken wire on top of that, and an inch of sand
mix cement over that. Let's ignore the heat loss from the ducts to the ground. 

Here's a fix: forget the newspaper, make the ducts a foot wide, use 30 instead
of 40 straw bales under the pool and put in 100 concrete blocks with holes in
them, standing on end between the ground and the chicken wire ferrocement, to
act as fins to conduct heat up to the pool bottom. Each concrete block has a
surface area of about 6 ft^2 exposed to the warm air, so this way, we have 80
ft^2 of glazing and about 200 + 6*100 ft^2 of thermal mass surface area to
gather heat from the warm air, ie a nice 10:1 ratio. 

Nick



From chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 25 22:38:24 EST 1996
Article: 645 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!wirrleac.demon.co.uk!chris
From: Wirral Energy Advice Centre <chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar Water Heater
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:58:53 +0000
Organization: wirral energy advice centre
Lines: 117
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <7cI0YAANxtUxEwqf@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
References: <314FC4F1.731B@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.11 <Exv1BnBeD4CIkLENnbM34v5HPf>

In article <314FC4F1.731B@xs4all.nl>, dale <dale@xs4all.nl> writes
>
>
>One system I am interested in is a solar water heater, to be used both =
>
>for heating water for baths and also possibly providing warmth in =
>
>certain parts of the house during the day or to a hot tub, etc. =


> Generally, it is very difficult to space heat from active solar
heating since the solar energy supply ( daytime & summer ) is out of
phase of the demand ( nightime & winter ). Whereas it is striaght-
forward to supply domestic hot water since the heat can be stored easily
and the demand is more in phase with supply. I have fitted space-heating
>from  solar water heating but only as excess heat-dumps for drying
clothes which automatically cut in when the solar store reaches 70 C.
>
>I would like to use long coils of black hose as the primary collector. =
>
>A similar principle is used by a few commercial manufacturers in the
U.K. for swimming pools. However an unglazed collector is only suitable
for sub 30 C. water temperatures and become wildly ineffecient at normal
domestic bath temperatures. These are mainly direct systems and
occasionally of the drain-back type.


>The problem is that in a cold climate, we are in NE Poland,  the water =
>
>can freeze in the pipes during the winter. Most systems compensate for =
>
>this by an elaborate and expensive dual (alcohol-water) system or an =
>
>expensive insulated glass system. I would like to do with with a simpler =
>
>system, and my idea is to place the absorption coils inside the house, =
>
>in a sera (glass sun porch) attached to the south end of the house. The =
>
>porch would not be heated as thoroughly as the rest of the house, just =
>
>keep above freezing during the winter, unless the sun warmes it further.  =
>
Technical problems here may include any flexible pipes collapsing from
negative pressure if a pump is used depending on hight levels. Also how
are you supporting the pipes and at what inclination to the horizon. If
horizontal, you will need a glass roof to get realistic performance.


>
>Another idea is to use as the primary heat absorbing coils, a black =
>
>plastic hose that could handle the expansion that would occur when the =
>
>water froze. In this case, only the pump would have to be protected from =
>
>freezing by keeping it indoors. =
>

Interesting, but if you have a pumped system there may be problems with
part freezing during a thaw. The pump may try to operate with a blocked
pipe. 
>
>Further, I would like to pump the water in this system with a low =
>
>voltage water pump that could be connected directly to a set of solar =
>
>cells without any intervening battery. After all there is no sense =
>
>pumping water when there is no sun. Does such a pump exist?

Certainly does .  German manufacture, 5 Watt consumption , Impedance
matched for direct operation from a PV module. Aprox. £200 in U.K.
>
> Finally, is there any reason why the system shouldn=B9t drain from the =
>
>collector coils whenever the system shuts down, thereby providing =
>
>further protection from freezing?

None, provided the collector is higher than the store and an open vent
or automatic bleed vent is used ( but only float types )
>
>Using one, or a combination of these ideas, I would hope to be able to =
>
>construct a very inexpensive system.
>
>Can anyone suggest how much and what kind of hose would be required for =
>
>such a system? Are there charts available for calculating this?


>
>Can anyone recommend a good book on this subject?

>
>Is there anyone who has any experience with this sort of system. What =
>
>problems might you foresee? And does anyone know of a pump that could be =
>
>driven directly from solar cells without intervening batteries or =
>
>electronics?

None of my designs in this area have come to fruition but I have already
researched a lot of what you are proposing.  Post some more details and
I return some more.
>
>Finally, is there an FAQ for this group?
>
>Any comments would be appreciated.
>
>Dale

-- 
Wirral Energy Advice Centre


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Mar 25 22:38:25 EST 1996
Article: 646 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news4.ner.bbnplanet.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!news2.near.net!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Yet another solar heated swimming pool--enhancements
Date: 25 Mar 1996 13:32:52 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47706 alt.energy.renewable:14654 bit.listserv.geodesic:4468 alt.architecture.alternative:6504 sci.environment:89077 alt.home.repair:20817 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5841 alt.solar.thermal:646

Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
 
>The straw bales under the pool itself could be spread apart to make 8 air
>ducts, each 6" wide x 16" deep, running from north to south...

>Here's a fix: forget the newspaper, make the ducts a foot wide, use 30 instead
>of 40 straw bales under the pool and put in 100 concrete blocks with holes in
>them, standing on end between the ground and the chicken wire ferrocement, to
>act as fins to conduct heat up to the pool bottom...

Better yet, forget the ducts and cement blocks and ferrocement, just build
the platform from strawbales and use a tiny pump and a 20' x 4' length of
SolaRoll, the EPDM rubber swimming pool tube-mat collector, under the south
edge vertical glazing.

Better yet, forget the store-bought pool and put a treated wood 2x4 frame
around the straw bales and line an 18' x 12' x 4' inner cavity with a single
piece of 20' wide EPDM rubber, folded up like a Chinese takeout box, so it
has no seams.

Better yet, make the solar collector out of another single piece of EPDM
rubber folded once into a 4' high x 12' long x 1" thick vertical V, with the
sides and top sealed in a 2x4 sandwich with silicone caulk between the rubber
sheets, a la Sven Tjernagel's 470 Pennsylvania site-built solar collectors,
(some still going strong), but vertical vs slanted, and filled with water,
vs a trickle down system, with some chicken wire under the north sides of
the 2x4 to limit the rubber bulging, and some glazing screwed to the south
sides of the 2x4s. 

Better yet, make an 20' wide x 16' long x 16' tall cube with 4 of these
20 x 8 x 8' boxes, using 2 16' long x 8' tall site-built EPDM collectors on
the south face, 2 6 gpm pumps each having an 8' head capability, and 4
internal water cavities, each 16' long x 8' wide x 6' deep, to store 24,576
gallons of water at 130 F, ie 10 million Btu of solar heat for a nearby house
for a whole cloudy winter. This might be nice under a 16' x 16' walkout deck,
on the west side of a house... If one were going to drink the water, the inner
tank liners might better be pond liner material, not EPDM, and the collectors
might contain propylene glycol "edible antifreeze," with a heat exchanger
inside the tanks. 

The pumps could be PV-powered of course. ("Bad move," says Sven Tjernagel :-)

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

                                          Tom Smith 


From tombruno@shout.net Tue Mar 26 10:28:36 EST 1996
Article: 647 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.shout.net!news
From: "Bruno, Thomas A." <tombruno@shout.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Yet another solar heated swimming pool
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:13:41 +0000
Organization: Thomas A. Bruno And Associates
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <31577D05.96B@shout.net>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: tombruno@shout.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgtdial06.shout.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
To: Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47729 alt.energy.renewable:14657 bit.listserv.geodesic:4477 alt.architecture.alternative:6507 sci.environment:89146 alt.home.repair:20828 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5846 alt.solar.thermal:647

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> So, I'm looking at the $450 15' diameter x 42" deep swimming pool in the 1993
> Spring/Summer J C Penny catalog, which would contain about 619 cubic feet of

[much deleted]


What about the straw rotting?  What about rodents? What about 
compression of the straw under the pool?
-- 
Thomas A. Bruno;  Champaign/Urbana, Illinois
Voice:217.328.6000; Fax 217.328.6765
Visit my web page at http://www.shout.net/~tombruno/


From internet:73234.1355@compuserve.com Tue Mar 26 22:03:25 EST 1996
Article: 648 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!news-1.csn.net!ncar!newshost.lanl.gov!usenet
From: "Murray E.Moore" <internet:73234.1355@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar heating to an instrument case
Date: 26 Mar 1996 23:32:33 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4j9uqh$4kl@newshost.lanl.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.165.66.100
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5858 alt.solar.thermal:648

I am building an air sampling device that will be used in the desert 
near Las Vegas, Nevada this summer.  (120 degrees in the shade!)

There will be an instrument box with a radio, datalogger, etc. as part
of this air sampler.  I am worried about overheating of the 
electronics, and I'm thinking about installing an air conditioner to
keep things cool.  Could I use 300 BTU/ft^2-hr as an estimate for the
solar energy incident on my instrument box?  

I don't have any tables with me, and I got that value from a general
reference book.  

I want to do a heating calculation on the box, then get a rough idea
of the AC unit I would need.  Adequate electricity is not expected 
to be a problem, but I don't want to overkill it on the size of the
system.

Replies can be posted to my e-mail or to the newsgroup.

Murray E. Moore
Los Alamos National Labs
Group ESH-4




 


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:31 EST 1996
Article: 649 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!news-1.csn.net!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Yet another solar heated swimming pool
Date: 27 Mar 1996 05:39:16 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4jb5sk$b1l@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31577D05.96B@shout.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47769 alt.energy.renewable:14668 bit.listserv.geodesic:4480 alt.architecture.alternative:6514 sci.environment:89268 alt.home.repair:20892 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5874 alt.solar.thermal:649

Bruno, Thomas A. <tombruno@shout.net> wrote:

>What about the straw rotting? 

Not a problem if it's kept dry. 

>What about rodents?

Unlikely, if the perimeter wall is put up with mortar. 

>What about compression of the straw under the pool?

One of my neighbors has a circular on-ground pool with a "stretchable liner,"
that makes it 18" deeper than it appears to be from the side... 

Nick



From jmelson@artsci.wustl.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:32 EST 1996
Article: 650 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!coconut!jmelson
From: jmelson@artsci.wustl.edu (Jonathan M. Elson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar heating to an instrument case
Followup-To: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Date: 27 Mar 1996 22:30:01 GMT
Organization: Arts and Sciences -- Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri, USA
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4jcfh9$iil@newsreader.wustl.edu>
References: <4j9uqh$4kl@newshost.lanl.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jmelson%@coconut.wustl.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5884 alt.solar.thermal:650

Murray E.Moore (internet:73234.1355@compuserve.com) wrote:
: I am building an air sampling device that will be used in the desert 
: near Las Vegas, Nevada this summer.  (120 degrees in the shade!)

: There will be an instrument box with a radio, datalogger, etc. as part
: of this air sampler.  I am worried about overheating of the 
: electronics, and I'm thinking about installing an air conditioner to
: keep things cool.  Could I use 300 BTU/ft^2-hr as an estimate for the
: solar energy incident on my instrument box?  

Watch out! don't neglect REFLECTED heat (radiated) from the ground!
You might think about a sun-shield to reduce radiation DIRECTLY hitting
the box.

Just a piece of sheet metal above and to the sides (generally E-W) of the
box will catch most of the heat, and transfer most of it to the air.
It will radiate a much smaller amount down to your box.  I have a litle
experience shading environmental sensors from the sun, and a piece of
galvanized steel over the sensor makes a BIG difference.  It is also a
lot cheaper (and maybe more reliable) than mechanical air conditioning.



From wpb5@psu.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:32 EST 1996
Article: 651 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!wpb.arche.psu.edu!wpb5
From: wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Yet another solar heated swimming pool
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:05:10 GMT
Organization: CAC
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <wpb5.336.31597546@psu.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31577D05.96B@shout.net> <4jb5sk$b1l@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpb.arche.psu.edu
X-Authinfo-User: wpb5@psu.edu
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47797 alt.energy.renewable:14677 bit.listserv.geodesic:4487 alt.architecture.alternative:6519 sci.environment:89345 alt.home.repair:20947 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5886 alt.solar.thermal:651

Nick Pine writes:

>Bruno, Thomas A. <tombruno@shout.net> wrote:

>>What about the straw rotting? 

>Not a problem if it's kept dry. 

>>What about rodents?

>Unlikely, if the perimeter wall is put up with mortar. 

>>What about compression of the straw under the pool?

>One of my neighbors has a circular on-ground pool with a "stretchable liner,"
>that makes it 18" deeper than it appears to be from the side... 

Straw bale construction is not really a new idea, although a straw bale 
swimming pool might be...

As part of a "sustainable" technology program, a group of Architectural 
Engineering/Architecture/Landscape Architecture students here at PSU have been
designing and plan to build a straw bale building that will serve as a meeting 
center.  The walls will be covered with stucco.  The R-value of such walls is 
quite high and, as Nick notes, it doesn't rot if you keep it dry.  I've 
occasionally wondered whether it would be cost effective to shrink-wrap the 
bales before installing them to make sure there's no moisture migration, but 
people who know say that it shouldn't be necessary.

Bill Bahnfleth


--
William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E.
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State-University Park
wpb5@psu.edu


From phabib@netcom.com Mon Apr  1 23:49:33 EST 1996
Article: 652 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!phabib
From: phabib@netcom.com (Philippe Habib)
Subject: Controller for sale
Message-ID: <phabibDouHuy.GF7@netcom.com>
Summary: controller for sale
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:44:58 GMT
Lines: 9
Sender: phabib@netcom.netcom.com

I've got a brand new, never been hooked up, Independent Energy model C-30
drain down controller for sale.  This controller works with 10k sensors
and controlls a drain down valve for freeze protection.

I'm thinking $75 for it, I pay freight to you, but I'll accept offers if
you'd like to make one.

email to phabib@netcom.com



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:34 EST 1996
Article: 653 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Strawbale/EPDM solar heat storage
Date: 28 Mar 1996 16:44:01 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 154
Message-ID: <4jf171$38s@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47838 alt.energy.renewable:14705 bit.listserv.geodesic:4501 alt.architecture.alternative:6546 sci.environment:89498 alt.home.repair:21065 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5907 alt.solar.thermal:653

>...Better yet, make a 16' wide x 16' long x 16' tall cube with 4 of these
>16 x 8 x 8' boxes, using 2 16' long x 8' tall site-built EPDM collectors on
>the south face, 2 6 gpm pumps each having an 8' head capability, and 4
>internal water cavities, each about 13' long x 6' wide x 6' deep, to store
>15,000 gallons of water at 130 F, ie 6 million Btu of usable solar heat for
>a nearby solar house for a cloudy month. This might be nice under a 16' x 16'
>walkout deck, on the west side of a house, or as a house foundation... 

Still thinking about how to build this, and how well it would work. Suppose
the bale walls were R40, and the average temp in December were 36 F, and the
average sun on a south wall were 1,000 Btu ft^2/day, augmented 50% by ground
reflection. Then our 16' cube with water at temp T inside might receive about 

Ein =  16' x 16' x 1,000 x 1.5 = 384K Btu/day, and lose, over an average day, 

Eout = 6 hr (T-36) 256 ft^2/R1  from the south wall, daytime 
    + 18 hr (T-36) 256 ft^2/R40 from the south wall, at night
    + 24 hr (T-36) 256 ft^2 x 4/R40 from ENW walls and roof, all day

     = (1536 + 115.2 + 614.4) (T-36) = 2265.6 (T-36), so if Ein = Eout,

T = 36 + 384K/2265.6 = 205.5 F. This looks good, but it probably won't get
that warm without a selective surface in the solar collector. On the
other hand, iron oxide is a somewhat selective surface...

We might start out with a straw bale box. My neighbor Ray Lehman sells rye
straw bales about 16" wide x 16" deep x 3' long for $1.75 each, delivered,
and rodents are not fond of rye straw, from what I hear. He also has some
4' tall and 4' wide and 8' long bales... Each of the 4 cube modules would be
16' wide x 8' deep (or 8" deeper, since the internal wall of the completed
cube would only be 1 bale wide) x 8' tall, and one bale thick all round. The
bottom would be about 5 bales long x 6 bales deep, ie 30 bales, the south wall
would be 5 bales long x 5 bales high, another 25 bales, and the east and west
walls would each be about 3 bales long x 5 bales high, 85 bales total, at a
cost of about $150. Now we need an EPDM rubber liner, something like this:

                                      |             30'             | 
EPDM comes in 20' wide rolls.   ---     .     .             .     .
The liner might cost 28 cents         2'.  6' .     14'     .  6' . 2'
per square foot, ie another $150      ..U.....L.............L.....U..
or so. It would be folded up            .     .             .     . 
like a Chinese takeout box      19'     .     .           7'.     .
inside the straw box, so it             .     .             .     .
would have no seams. The points       ..U.....L.............L.....U..
marked L here would be the              .     .           6'.     .
bottom 4 inside corners of the  ---     .     .             .     .
straw box. The rubber would 
fold over along a NW crease at points U to lay flat on the upper edge of
the bale sides... The EW upper edges of the rubber would be clamped in a
2x4 sandwich along the top edge of the NW walls. The liner might want to be
a vinyl swimming pool liner, not EPDM, if this is potable, eg rainwater.
(BTW, this ascii sketch makes more sense if seen in a non-proportional font,
eg courier on a Mac.) 

This sides of the box need some reinforcement to hold back the water pressure.
The sideways water pressure at the bottom of the box would be about 60 pounds
per square foot, diminishing to 0 psf at the top, so an 8' vertical wall stud
on 4' centers would have a total load of 960 pounds, distributed towards the
bottom of the stud. Using simple uniform load beam formulas, we might design
the studs with

L = 8' span,
f = 1000 psi, max fiber stress in bending,
w = 30 psf uniform load,
oc = 4' on center spacing,
W = w x oc x L = 960 pounds total load,
M = W x L x 12/8 = 11520 in-lb bending moment,
S = M/f = 11520/1000 = 11.5 in^3 section modulus,
b = 1.5" beam width, and 
d = sqrt(6S/b) = 2.76" beam depth, so a 2 x 4 may work...

Something also needs to keep the box from becoming a circle, as we look at it
>from  above, eg some some perimeter sill plates, perhaps with a dacron rope
crossing the box NS in the middle at ground level on top of the vapor barrier,
connecting the plates.

Now, how do we make the vertical EPDM rubber collectors? Perhaps fold a 16'
long piece of 20' EPDM rubber in half, to make a U with a 16' crease at the
bottom, leaving 2' of rubber sticking out on one long side, to overlap the
north top edge of the bale wall. Then assemble the wall, screwing 2 horizontal
16+' long pieces of 4' wide, 26 gauge sheet metal to the insides of the studs,
leaving a 3" bulge in each 4' cavity, and attach the outer top edge of the
rubber to the top edge of the 16' long x 8' high stud wall, and tilt it up.
Then caulk the EW vertical edges of the rubber bladder on the inside, attach
a pipe to the top and bottom edges, and squeeze them together in a wood
sandwich, somehow attaching the sheet metal firmly as well, so that when the
wall is tilted up, and the top edges of the bladder are also sealed in a
sandwich, the rubber bladder will contain an inch of water from south to north
when filled, and attach a single layer of polyethylene plastic to the north
sides of the 2x4s.

The bottom edge of the tank might look something like this:

                     glazing     |metal epdm
                           ^     ^      ^
                           g     |me    e         
                           g     |meeeeee           
                           g-----|m-----            straw
                           | 2x4 |m 2x4 |
                          -|     |m     |-
                        =| | B O |m L T | | 
			  -      |m     |-
                           |     |m     |
........................... -----  ----- ...............................


How thick would the metal sheet have to be? A 1" strip near the bottom would
have to support a side load of about 8' * .43 psi/ft x 48", or 160 pounds,
over a 4' distance. If it were made of 40K psi steel, with an intentional 3"
bulge in the middle, the left and right sides of the strip would each have a
tension of about 24/3" x 160/2 = 640 pounds, so the metal would have to be
about 640/40K = 0.016" thick, ie 1/64th of an inch thick. It would have to be
carefully attached to the 2 x 4 sandwich, with lots of screws and washers...

The inner horizontal layer of this tank might have a large piece of EPDM
rubber covering the whole straw structure, from outside edge to outside edge
in both directions, with the rubber drooping about a foot down into the tank
to rest on top of the water. One might then put top support floor joists
on the tank walls on 2' centers, on top of that rubber, the kind that look
like this:

                            |             ~8'              |
                      ---   ................................
                      ~1'       .                      .
                      ---        ......................

		                |         ~7'          |,

with some plywood or OSB on top of that to hold up the tank above. The second
story walls would take about 55 more bales. The top tank roof might have the
space around these floor joists filled with polystyrene beads.

Yes there are a few more details here :-) If this box were also used for
sewage treatment, it might have only a single layer of rubber covering the
north side of the straw, with a small aerobic wastewaterfall leaking over the
14' north side of the tank, to trickle down the rubber, which would take a
little more pump power. We could also use more details about some good way
to heat the water directly with sun-warmed air, with some sort of fins under
the water tank, to remove the heat from the air and conduct it to the water
via some sort of thermally-conductive surface under the rubber, eg ferrocement
over some chicken wire and straw, or a corrugated iron layer with a layer of
concrete poured on top, so we don't have to build this EPDM solar collector.

Nick

     When we play tennis or walk down stairs, we are actually solving
     whole pages of differential equations, quickly, easily, and
     without thinking about it, using the analogue computer which we
     keep in our minds. What we find difficult about mathematics is
     the formal, symbolic presentation of the subject by pedagogues
     with a taste for dogma, sadism and incomprehensible squiggles.

		  from _Structures: Or Why Things Don't Fall Down_
			by J. E. Gordon, a Da Capo Press paperback


From pes@netnet.net Mon Apr  1 23:49:34 EST 1996
Article: 654 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!laslo.netnet.net!news
From: Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:14:58 -0800
Organization: Public Energy Systems
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-822-2-5.netnet.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14709 alt.solar.thermal:654 sci.energy:47860 sci.environment:89556 sci.misc:12631 sci.research:10527

I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
-- 
********************************************************************
Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
voice:  414-465-6563	     fax:  414-4659894
********************************************************************
Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology


From AEI@WTAMU.EDU Mon Apr  1 23:49:35 EST 1996
Article: 655 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!news.utdallas.edu!news.tamu.edu!news
From: Ken Starcher <AEI@WTAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: 29 Mar 1996 23:30:48 GMT
Organization: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INSTITUTE
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <4jhrr8$m3b@news.tamu.edu>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aeimac.wtamu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12(Macintosh; I; PPC)
X-URL: news:315C36B2.656C@netnet.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14712 alt.solar.thermal:655 sci.energy:47869 sci.environment:89574 sci.misc:12639 sci.research:10534

Check out a company in Amarillo 
TX that has a coating paint that has excellent thermal 
properties.  I will add more info as I can dig it out 
of our files.  Good lead is the Amarillo Daily 
Newspaper, had a lot of stories on it in 1988-89.

KEN S.




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:36 EST 1996
Article: 656 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Tracking houses
Date: 30 Mar 1996 08:18:57 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 198
Message-ID: <4jjcc1$q0c@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47885 alt.energy.renewable:14716 bit.listserv.geodesic:4508 alt.architecture.alternative:6569 sci.environment:89618 alt.home.repair:21188 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5941 alt.solar.thermal:656

A PV friend says: 

>I've been dreaming of suspending an array in between two trees
>at about the 90' level...

With ropes going east and west? That seems interesting, 3/4 up those tall
trees 300' to the south of your house, with some nylon ropes running north
and south to the ground from the bottom? Seems like this would usually lead
to shading by other trees, if not falling branches, etc. I would like to
build a treehouse, a large one for living in, even. I traded some letters 
with serious treehouse people years ago, one a prof in North Carolina.

Suppose the PV structure had some internal volume and a floor, with a rope
ladder for courageous children attached to safety ropes. We might insulate that
volume and put some thermal mass inside, eg a few batteries surrounded by an
air gap and insulation, to capture some of the other 90% of the sun's heat...

For two axis tracking, suppose it were supported from above at three points,
with a fixed rope at the top on the north side going up and north to a tree,
another at the north bottom center going to the ground, and two more going up
SE and SW from the EW upper south corners, said ropes being attached to two
small DC reversible winches or garage door openers inside the treehouse. A
rope ladder hanging from the south side deck would make this more stable. To
point east, crank in the west rope and let out the east rope, and vice versa
to point west. To tilt the array upwards, crank in both ropes. To tilt it down
towards the south horizon, let out both ropes. Picture a 4' x 4' x 8' shed,
with a reflective front porch and a 1:2 roof sloping up to the south and a
reflective overhang. It might look like this:

         from the east                from the south front

     \         8'                \             12'           /
       .                           .........................
       .   .   ^                   . .                   . .
       .       .                   .   .................   .
       .       .   .               .   .       8'      .   . 6'
       .       .       .           .   .             4'.   .
       .       .     PV. 2'        .   .      P V      .   .
       .................           .........................
           4'      4'    \                     l
       l                                       4'
                                           .........   
       l                                  .    PV   .
                                         .           .
       l                                .             .
                                       .       .       .    8'
       l                              .                 .
                                     .                   .
       l                            .                     .
                                   .........................
       l                         /                           \
                                          from the top

This would have a PV area of 8 ft^2 and a frontal area of 72 ft^2 with
a concentration ratio of 9, so the peak sun power would be 6.5 kW. How
would we cool it? Perhaps make the PVs the back of an thin aquarium tank,
with the sun shining through a little water, and a radiator above.

How big a radiator? Say the PVs collect 650 watts peak, with a solar energy
input of 5.5 kWh/m^2/day in July in Seattle, ie 36.8 kWh of solar energy in,
and 3.68 kWh/day of electrical energy out. The difference is 33.1 kWh/day.
That is the heat we need to deliberately waste. The average temperature in
Seattle in July is 18.4 C. Suppose we want to keep the average PV temp
at 28.4 C. The average windspeed is 3.5 m/s, or 7.8 mph. So assuming we
have enough water to store the heat for 24 hours, we have to waste 33.1 kWh
of heat, about the same as the heat in a gallon of oil, in 24 hours, with a
10 C temperature rise, or 138 watts/degree C, or 261 Btu/hr/degree F. A smooth
174 ft^2 surface or rough 130 Ft^2 surface would do that with no wind, as
would 44 ft^2 of rough surface exposed to the wind, or the wind from an
exhaust fan to the north on a calm day. Or we might try to evaporate about
0.005 gallons (0.7 oz.) per minute of water by slowly pumping it up to the
ridge peak and letting it trickle back down into the tank, or let some
rainwater flow thru the tank. 

How much water would we need to store that heat? 33.1 kWh will heat 6720
pounds of water 10 degrees C. Perhaps we should try to get rid of most of
the heat in real time, and cover the backs of the PVs with fins and such. 

It would be interesting if we could turn this structure around to the north,
swing the PVs out of the way with a linear actuator, say, and scoop up some
wind to flow through the exhaust fan at night, or on a cloudy day, to make
more electrical power.

With a couple of batteries inside and an inverter, we could run 110 or
240VAC wires up the north rope and back to the house. 

The rope ladder might not touch the ground. It might just end in a large
weight, say 3' above the ground, to make a large and interesting pendulum
with a period of about 5 seconds. If the rope ladder slanted up to the
treehouse from the south, we might add two more ropes to the ground to the
NW and NE and enclose the EW sides of the tetrahedron between the treehouse
and the ground, eg with dacron sailcloth, or burlap/cement, and put a wind
turbine on the ground at the south lee corner, just north of the base of
the rope ladder, to make a big north-facing windscoop (and snowscoop--we
might make the EW sides transparent, or enclose the north side too, and make
another house, barn, or solar closet and sunspace underneath, parking a car
or a tractor under the PV shed, or storing some hay or animals... 

A PV shed on top of a flat roof in a city might be suspended from the point
of a tetrahedral frame made with 6 poles, with some sandbags at the corners.

Suspending a real solar house from a 3-cornered manmade arch this way would be
interesting. It wouldn't have to be very high off the ground to let the house
track the sun, altho a 3-cornered St Louis-type arch would be nice :-), and
that might also serve as the house foundation... Electric and water might
enter the house with flexible lines from the top, with the house rotating no
more than 360 degrees, perhaps facing north on summer days. 
 
It might be less expensive to suspend the house from 3 telephone poles,
like this, seen from the top:
                                          s
                                          .
                                          .
                                          .
                                          p
                                          .
                                          .
                                          .
                                          H
                                        .   .
                                      .       .
                                    .           .
                                  p               p
                                .                   .
                              .                       . 
                            s                           s
     
                            
and like this from the side:      p       p       p
                                . p   .   p   .   p .
                              .   p       H       p   .
                   .........s.....p.......p.......p.....s............
                            s                           s

The poles might each hold up about 30K lbs from the weight of the house
and another 30K pounds or so from the guy wires, so each pole would need
a 30 ft^2 footing, perhaps, and at 50 K psi, the steel cables would need
to be about 1" diameter. Big nylon or dacron ropes might work instead of
the steel cables. The wood of the poles would probably hold the weight in
compression parallel to the grain, but the poles should probably be cemented
on the outside, over wire reinforcement, to make them more durable and
increase their polar moment of inertia, so they aren't so inclined to buckle.
Tilting the poles out a bit would make the guy wires smaller. Tilting them in
so they touch would help too, but that doesn't leave much room for the house.

Althernatively, the house might be held up by a geodesic telephone pole
structure, 20 poles, each 30' long (connected by what, ropes thru holes in
the poles? Bolts, and steel plates. Lots of chicken wire and cement?) This
would be about 150' in circumference, about 50' in diameter (if the poles 
poles were curved and pi were 3) and about 40' tall at the central point.
Adding 5 more poles on the ground would solve the footing problem, and make
a nice berm for the EPDM rubber reflecting pond and wastewater treatment
facultative lagoon, with a small fountain. Enclosing the whole thing in
polyethylene film might be nice. Un gout special.

What would the building inspector say? Perhaps not much about safety,
if the house were only 6" above the ground.

What would the architect say ("THAT doesn't look like a house!" :-)

What would the health department say?

What would the neighbors say?

What would the bank say?

Or... the house could be floated on a shallow pool. A 30 x 30' two story
house might weigh 100 psf, requiring a 2' deep pool, taking some or all of
the load off the telephone poles. 

We could try this out with a prefab 8 x 12' shed, with PVs mounted on the
south wall, a reflective south deck and an overhang, and reflective wings,
sitting in a pool made with a 20' x 20' piece of EPDM rubber over a 2' tall
perimeter earth berm. The pond corners might point to compass directions,
and the shed might have a 12' rope from the center of the south wall to the
south pond corner. We might mount two winches or garage door openers at the
EW corners of the north wall of the shed, high up, connected to ropes to the
EW pond corners, for treehouse-type two axis tracking, tilting the shed back
to the north to point it up into the sky. The shed might have a waterproof
skirt coming 2' up the walls on the outside, made from a single piece of
EPDM rubber. So might a modular home... With all that water around it,
PV cooling should be easy. One might even want to solar heat the house.

>The sun hits the tops of the trees at 6 am or so, and doesn't hit the PVs
>I have now for several hours after that. It just becomes a question of how
>much it costs in money and aesthetics to put them up there, and how much
>more vulnerable they become.

A small PV tracking treehouse, 90' up, could be delightful. It might have
a few mirrors or a bit of stained glass to glint onto your house, 300' to
the north. Some wind chimes, perhaps, or some propellors and generators on
the guy wires. With the right combination of strong and elastic ropes and
mass and damping, vulnerability should not be a problem. It wouldn't be very
expensive either. Small DC winches cost less than $200. Some people use
$150 Sears radio-controlled garage door openers to haul out boats. 

Nick



From solarae@northcoast.com Mon Apr  1 23:49:36 EST 1996
Article: 657 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!northcoast.com!northcoast.com!solarae
From: solarae@northcoast.com (Edith B. Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:31:59
Organization: Northcoast Internet
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <solarae.12.000A88CA@northcoast.com>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: drizzle.northcoast.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14718 alt.solar.thermal:657 sci.energy:47891 sci.environment:89626 sci.misc:12658 sci.research:10544

In article <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net> Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net> writes:
>From: Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net>
>Subject: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
>Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:14:58 -0800

>I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
>used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
>would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
>-- 
>********************************************************************
>Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
>email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
>voice:  414-465-6563         fax:  414-4659894
>********************************************************************
>Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology


Used to be able to get this stuff in a spray can right next to the hight temp. 
flat black spray paint (which works pretty good too), but some kind of 
regulation prevents it's manufacture these days. For a long time I was still 
able to find dusty old cans as left over stock in some hardware stores. You 
might just try calling around. I'll try to find an old can and get you more 
particulars like the name and manufacturer. 


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Apr  1 23:49:37 EST 1996
Article: 658 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Tracking houses [Updated 4/1/96]
Date: 1 Apr 1996 15:07:23 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 234
Message-ID: <4jpd1r$s3o@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jjcc1$q0c@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47932 alt.energy.renewable:14736 bit.listserv.geodesic:4521 alt.architecture.alternative:6603 sci.environment:89806 alt.home.repair:21354 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5954 alt.solar.thermal:658

A PV friend says: 

>I've been dreaming of suspending an array in between two trees
>at about the 90' level...

With ropes going east and west? That seems interesting, 3/4 up those tall
trees 300' to the south of your house, with some nylon ropes running north
and south to the ground from the bottom? Seems like this would usually lead
to shading by other trees, if not falling branches, etc. I would like to
build a treehouse, a large one for living in, even. I traded some letters 
with serious treehouse people years ago, one a prof in North Carolina.

Suppose the PV structure had some internal volume and a floor, with a rope
ladder for courageous children attached to safety ropes. We might insulate that
volume and put some thermal mass inside, eg a few batteries surrounded by an
air gap and insulation, to capture some of the other 90% of the sun's heat...

For 2-axis tracking, suppose it were supported from above at three points,
with a fixed rope at the top on the north side going up and north to a tree,
another at the north bottom center going to the ground, and two more going up
SE and SW from the EW upper south corners, said ropes being attached to two
small DC reversible winches or garage door openers inside the treehouse. A
rope ladder hanging from the south side deck would make this more stable. To
point east, crank in the west rope and let out the east rope, and vice versa
to point west. To tilt the array upwards, crank in both ropes. To tilt it down
towards the south horizon, let out both ropes. Picture a 4' x 4' x 8' shed,
with a reflective front porch and a 1:2 roof sloping up to the south and a
reflective overhang. It might look like this:

         from the east                from the south front

     \         8'                \             12'           /
       .                           .........................
       .   .   ^                   . .                   . .
       .       .                   .   .               .   .
       .       .   .               .     .     4'    .     . 6'
       .       .       .           .      ..........       .
       .       .     PV. 2'        .      .   P V  .       .
       .................           .........................
           4'      4'    \                     l
       l                                       4'
                                           .........   
       l                                  .    PV   .
                                         .           .
       l                                .             .
                                       .       .       .    8'
       l                              .                 .
                                     .                   .
       l                            .                     .
                                   .........................
       l                          /                         \
                                          from the top

This would have a PV area of 8 ft^2 and a frontal area of 72 ft^2 with
a concentration ratio of 9, so the peak sun power would be 6.5 kW. How
would we cool it? Perhaps make the PVs the back of an thin aquarium tank,
with the sun shining through a little water, and a radiator above.

How big a radiator? Say the PVs collect 650 watts peak, with a solar energy
input of 5.5 kWh/m^2/day in July in Seattle, ie 36.8 kWh of solar energy in,
and 3.68 kWh/day of electrical energy out. The difference is 33.1 kWh/day.
That is the heat we need to deliberately waste. The average temperature in
Seattle in July is 18.4 C. Suppose we want to keep the average PV temp
at 28.4 C. The average windspeed is 3.5 m/s, or 7.8 mph. So assuming we
have enough water to store the heat for 24 hours, we have to waste 33.1 kWh
of heat, about the same as the heat in a gallon of oil, in 24 hours, with a
10 C temperature rise, or 138 watts/degree C, or 261 Btu/hr/degree F. A smooth
174 ft^2 surface or a rough 130 ft^2 would do that with no wind, as would
44 ft^2 of rough surface exposed to the wind, or the wind from an exhaust fan
to the north on a calm day.

Or we might let some rainwater flow through the tank, or try to evaporate
0.005 gallons (0.7 oz.) per minute of water by slowly pumping it up to the
ridge peak and letting it trickle back down into the tank, over the 64+ ft^2
roof surface. The partial pressure of water in air at 18 C is 15.3 mmHg,
which becomes 10.1 mmHg in Seattle's 66% average July humidity, I guess,
and at 28 C, the partial pressure of water in air is 28 mmHg. Duffie and
Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_, 2nd edition, has this
formula 18.5.2 on page 664:

   Qc/Qe = 0.46(Tp-Ta)/(Pwp-Pa),

where Qc is the heat loss by convection from a surface in W/m^2-C and
      Qe is the heat loss by evaporation, and Tp and Ta are in deg C, and 
      Pwp and Pa are the partial pressures of warm pond water and cooler
      water vapor in ambient air. This hardly changes with wind speed.

Cranking through all this, I found that we might waste all this heat by
evaporating a little PV cooling water at just under 20 C, not 28 C. At 28 C,
about 4 times more heat is lost by water evaporation than by convection.

How much water would we need to store that heat? 33.1 kWh will heat 6720
pounds of water 10 degrees C. Perhaps we should try to get rid of most of
the heat in real time, and cover the backs of the PVs with fins and such. 

It would be interesting if we could turn this structure around to the north,
swing the PVs out of the way with a linear actuator, say, and scoop up some
wind to flow through the exhaust fan at night, or on a cloudy day, to make
more electrical power.

With a couple of batteries inside and an inverter, we could run 110 or
240VAC wires up the north rope and back to the house. 

The rope ladder might not touch the ground. It might just end in a large
weight, say 3' above the ground, to make a large and interesting pendulum
with a period of about 5 seconds. If the rope ladder slanted up to the
treehouse from the south, we might add two more ropes to the ground to the
NW and NE and enclose the EW sides of the tetrahedron between the treehouse
and the ground, eg with dacron sailcloth, or burlap/cement, and put a wind
turbine on the ground at the south lee corner, just north of the base of
the rope ladder, to make a big north-facing windscoop (and snowscoop--we
might make the EW sides transparent, or enclose the north side too, and make
another house, barn, or solar closet and sunspace underneath, parking a car
or a tractor under the PV shed, or storing some hay or animals... 

A PV shed on top of a flat roof in a city might be suspended from the point
of a tetrahedral frame made with 6 poles, with some sandbags at the corners.

Suspending a real solar house from a 3-cornered manmade arch this way would be
interesting. It wouldn't have to be very high off the ground to let the house
track the sun, altho a 3-cornered St Louis-type arch would be nice :-), and
that might also serve as the house foundation, and deter termites and mice...
Electric and water might enter the house with flexible lines from the top,
with the house rotating no more than 360 degrees, perhaps facing north on
summer days. 
 
It might be less expensive to suspend the house from 3 telephone poles,
like this, seen from the top:
                                          s
                                          .
                                          .
                                          .
                                          p
                                          .
                                          .
                                          .
                                          H
                                        .   .
                                      .       .
                                    .           .
                                  p               p
                                .                   .
                              .                       . 
                            s                           s
     
                            
and like this from the side:      p       p       p
                                . p   .   p   .   p .
                              .   p       H       p   .
                   .........s.....p.......p.......p.....s............
                            s                           s

The poles might each hold up about 30K lbs from the weight of the house
and another 30K pounds or so from the guy wires, so each pole would need
a 30 ft^2 footing, perhaps, and at 50 K psi, the steel cables would need
to be about 1" diameter. Big nylon or dacron ropes might work instead of
the steel cables. The wood of the poles would probably hold the weight in
compression parallel to the grain, but the poles should probably be cemented
on the outside, over wire reinforcement, to make them more durable and
increase their polar moment of inertia, so they aren't so inclined to buckle.
Tilting the poles out a bit would make the guy wires smaller. Tilting them in
so they touch would help too, but that doesn't leave much room for the house.

Althernatively, the house might be held up by a geodesic telephone pole
structure, 20 poles, each 30' long (connected by what, ropes thru holes in
the poles? Bolts, and steel plates. Lots of chicken wire and cement?) This
would be about 150' in circumference, about 50' in diameter (if the poles 
poles were curved and pi were 3) and about 40' tall at the central point.
Adding 5 more poles on the ground would solve the footing problem, and make
a nice berm for the EPDM rubber reflecting pond and wastewater treatment
facultative lagoon, with a small fountain. Enclosing the whole thing in
polyethylene film might be nice. Un gout special.

What would the building inspector say? Perhaps not much about safety,
if the house were only 6" above the ground.

What would the architect say ("THAT doesn't look like a house!" :-)

What would the health department say?

What would the neighbors say?

What would the bank say?

Or... the house could be floated on a shallow pool. A 30 x 30' two story
house might weigh 100 psf, requiring a 2' deep pool, taking some or all of
the load off the telephone poles. 

We could try this out with a prefab 8 x 12' shed, with PVs mounted on the
south wall, a reflective hinged floating south dock and an overhang, and
reflective wings, sitting in a pool made with a 20' x 20' piece of EPDM
rubber over a 2' tall perimeter earth berm.

The pond corners might point to compass directions, and the shed might have
an 10' rope or conduit from the center of the south wall to the south pond
corner. We might mount 2 winches at the EW corners of the north wall of the
shed, high up, connected by ropes to stakes in the ground 12' NE of the NE
pond edge and 12' SE of the SE pond edge, for treehouse-type 2-axis tracking,
tilting the shed back to the north to point it up into the sky. The shed might
have a waterproof skirt coming 2' up the walls on the outside, made from a 
single piece of EPDM rubber. So might a modular home... Only one winch, eg
with a continuous rope wrapped round the drum would be needed for adjustable
tilt, 1-axis tracking. With all that water, PV cooling should be easy.
We might even heat the house with the sun.

>The sun hits the tops of the trees at 6 am or so, and doesn't hit the PVs
>I have now for several hours after that. It just becomes a question of how
>much it costs in money and aesthetics to put them up there, and how much
>more vulnerable they become.

A small PV tracking treehouse, 90' up, could be delightful. It might have
a few mirrors or some of stained glass glinting onto your house, 300' to
the north. Some wind chimes, perhaps, or some propellors and generators on
the guy wires. With the right combination of strong and elastic ropes and
mass and damping, vulnerability should not be a problem. It wouldn't be very
expensive either. Small DC winches cost less than $200. Some people use $150
Sears radio-controlled garage door openers to haul boats out of the water. 

Nick

A word from Lewis Carroll, on this fine day of fools:

(1) Every idea of mine, that cannot be expressed as a syllogism,
    is really ridiculous.
(2) None of my ideas about bath-buns are worth writing down.
(3) No idea of mine, that fails to come true, can be expressed as a syllogism.
(4) I never have any really ridiculous idea, that I do not at once
    refer to my solicitor.
(5) My dreams are all about bath-buns.
(6) I never refer any idea of mine to my solicitor,
    unless it is worth writing down.

There is a simple conclusion to be derived from these statements...



From jbh@haven.ios.com Tue Apr  2 15:10:44 EST 1996
Article: 659 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.ios.com!news2.ios.com!haven.ios.com!jbh
From: jbh@haven.ios.com (JoshuaHalpern)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Date: 2 Apr 1996 04:41:15 GMT
Organization: Internet Online Services
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4jqb5b$fn9@news2.ios.com>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: haven.ios.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14745 alt.solar.thermal:659 sci.energy:47949 sci.environment:89850 sci.misc:12720 sci.research:10572

Laurie Neverman (pes@netnet.net) wrote:
: I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
: used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
: would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
: -- 
: ********************************************************************
: Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
: email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
: voice:  414-465-6563	     fax:  414-4659894
: ********************************************************************
: Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology
McMasters (a large supply company) stocks a black paint that can
be used up to 300 C (or maybe even more)

Regards
Josh Halpern



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Apr  2 15:10:45 EST 1996
Article: 660 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Two views on sunspace design
Date: 2 Apr 1996 10:37:40 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 178
Message-ID: <4jrhk4$7nn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j63ba$4e6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jjcc1$q0c@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:47958 alt.energy.renewable:14748 bit.listserv.geodesic:4524 alt.architecture.alternative:6615 sci.environment:89900 alt.home.repair:21423 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:5962 alt.solar.thermal:660

   It is hard to think of any other system that supplies so much heat
   (to an existing house) at such low cost...

   One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
   the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
   virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.
   This can be done by spreading a 2-inch-thick layer of lightweight
   insulation on the floor and north wall of the enclosure and then
   installing a thin black sheet over the insulation. Then, practically
   no heat is delivered to the massive components of floor or wall;
   practically all of the heat is promptly transferred to the air.
   And since the thermal capacity of the 100 or 200 lb. of air in
   the room is equal to that of one fourth as great a mass of water
   (about 25 to 50 lb. of water), the air will heat up very rapidly.
   I estimate that its temperature will rise about 40 F. degrees in about
   two minutes, after the sun comes out from behind a heavy cloud cover.
   At the end of the day, little heat will be "left on base" in the 
   collector floor or north wall and, accordingly, the enclosure will
   cool off very rapidly.

     New Inventions in Low Cost Solar Heating--
     100 Daring Schemes Tried and Untried
     by William A. Shurcliff, PhD
     Brick House Publishing, 1979, 293 pages, $12

   A sunspace has extensive south-facing glass, so sufficient thermal mass
   is important. Without it, the sunspace is liable to be uncomfortably hot
   during the day, and too cold for plants or people at night.

   However, the temperature in the sunspace can vary more than in the
   house itself, so about three square feet of four inch thick thermal
   mass for each square foot of sunspace glazing should be adequate...

   The sunspace floor is a good location for thermal mass. The mass floors
   should be dark in color. No more than 15-25% of the floor slab should be
   covered with rugs or plants... Another good location for thermal mass
   is the common wall (the wall separating the sunspace from the rest of
   the house)... Water in various types of containers is another form of
   energy storage often used in sunspaces.

	     Passive Solar Design Guidelines--
	     Guidelines for Homebuilders
	     for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
	     Passive Solar Industries Council
	     National Renewable Energy Laboratory
	     Charles Eley Associates 
	     Current edition, 88 pages, $50 

So, which is the most energy-efficient sunspace in a partly cloudy climate
like Philadelphia?

Shurcliff's plastic film sunspace, wearing the green uniform in this contest,
might cost about $2/ft^2 and begin an average December day at 36 F, and like
the PSIC sunspace, it would receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2/day over the average
day. Let's assume that both sunspaces have a perfectly insulated wall between
them and the house, to avoid the thermal disaster of a poorly insulated Trombe
wall in a partly cloudy climate. (Trombe walls can't even get to the starting
line in this race.) And that there is no air infiltration from the outside in
either case. Shurcliff's sunspace air would be circulated through the house
with some dampers or fans, keeping the sunspace at 80 F, say, while the house
remains at 70 F. With single glazing, about 900 Btu/ft^2 of sun might enter
the sunspace during the day, and the amount of heat lost through a square foot
of Shurcliff's sunspace over a typical 6 hour December day would be about
6 hr (80-36)/R1 = 264 Btu/ft^2/day, for a net gain of 636 Btu/ft^2, ie his
$2/ft^2 sunspace would be about 64% efficient, as a solar collector. As
an auxiliary living space, it could be heated up instantly on some starry
night for a party, by moving some warm air from the house into the sunspace.

A PSIC sunspace, wearing the brown uniform, would perform better with double
glazing. He might cost $10/ft^2. Say his thermal mass is poured concrete,
4" thick, with an official PSIC heat capacity of 8.8 Btu/ft^2, and say it
absorbs 100% of the sun that falls on it, vs the official PSIC solar
absorptance of bare concrete of 0.65 (table K, page 57.) Then about 800
Btu/ft^2/day of sun will enter the double glazing and be absorbed by the
concrete, and the concrete surface will warm up the sunspace air, and that
warm air can be used to heat the house when the sunspace temperature is more
than 80 F. Suppose the concrete loses no heat at all to the soil below (I'm
giving quite a few handicaps to the PSIC sunspace in this efficiency race.)
Suppose the PSIC sunspace starts out the day at temperature T, and the
concrete charges up in the sun to a maximum temperature of T + dT, and
returns to temperature T at dawn, on an average day in December. How can we
calculate T and dT? We have an equivalent electrical circuit that looks
something like this:

                             Ts sunspace temperature
                             |
                      R2     |            S 
       36 F ---------wwww-----------------|-------------------- 70 F
       outdoors      glazing |            open switch to heat   house 
                             |
                             w
                             w  R0.5 concrete - sunspace air resistance 
               800 Btu/ft^2  w
                   per day   |
            |      ---       |
          | | ----|-->|------|--Tc concrete temperature
            |      ---       |
               sun current   w
                   source    w  R0.4 concrete bulk thermal resistance
                             w
                             |
                          ------- 8.8 Btu/F thermal mass of concrete
			  -------           
                             |
                             |
                            ---
                             -

Let's simplify this, by assuming the thermal mass of the concrete is infinite,
vs 8.8 Btu/ft^2/F. Lots of concrete, or a water wall, or something that has
so much thermal mass that the temperature inside the sunspace never changes
at all from day to night or day to day over a long string of average December
days, with some sun. This is an optimal sunspace with more than "adequate" or
"sufficient" thermal mass by official PSIC standard guidelines. Let's also
assume that the two small resistors have a value of zero, ie let's assume the
the R0.4 bulk thermal resistance of the concrete, that makes the surface heat
up more than the inside, while the sun is warming it up, and makes it harder
to get heat out of the inside of the concrete and into the sunspace air, and
the R0.5 concrete-sunspace air resistance, are both R0 conductors. What will
Tc be in that simplified case?

The sun shines into the sunspace during the day and adds 800 Btu to our
concrete capacitor, and over 24 hours, 24(Tc-36)1ft^2/R2 = 12 Tc - 432 Btu
flow out of the capacitor. If Ein = Eout (providing no heat for the attached
house), then Tc = (800+432)/12 = 103 F. Pretty nice, but this sunspace is
not providing any heat for the house, just keeping itself warm on an average
day, and losing lots of heat on a cloudy day. Suppose we allow some heat to
flow from the sunspace into the house, ie close the switch, ie turn on the
fan or open the damper between the sunspace and the house often enough to
limit the maximum sunspace temp to 80 F instead of 103 F. Then the heat loss
to the outside world over the course of a day is 24(80-36)1 ft^2/R2 = 528 Btu,
and the rest of the heat that enters the double glazing, ie 800 - 528 = 272
Btu/ft^2/day goes into heating the house, so the solar collection efficiency
of this $10/ft^2 sunspace in terms of useful heat provided for the attached
house is 27%. As an auxiliary living space, the temperature of this sunspace
is largely out of our control. It takes a long time and a lot of house heat to
warm it up on an evening or cloudy day, and after we leave the space, it stays
warm for a long time, giving up precious house heat to the outside world.

How curious that by carefully following the current official guidelines of
the Passive Solar Industries Council, we can reduce the performance of
Shurcliff's low-thermal-mass sunspace from 64% to 27%, while increasing the
price from $2/ft^2 to $10/ft^2, unimproving the cost-effectiveness of the
sunspace by a factor of 12, even with all these PSIC-slanted assumptions... 

Here's a quote from the Acknowlegements section of the PSIC guidelines:  

   _Passive Solar Design Strategies: Guidelines for Home Builders_ represents
   over three years of effort by a unique group of organizations and
   individuals. The challenge of creating an effective design tool that
   could be customized for the specific needs of builders in cities and towns
   all over the U. S. called for the talents and experience of specialists
   in many different areas of expertise.

   _Passive Solar Design Strategies_ is based on research sponsored by the
   United States Department of Energy (DOE) Solar Buildings Program, and
   carried out by the Los Alamos National Laboratory, the National Renewable
   Energy Laboratory (NREL)... and the Florida Solar Energy Center (FSEC.) 

   The National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) Standing Committee on
   Energy has provided invaluable advice and assistance during the
   development of the Guidelines.

   Valuable information was drawn from the 14 country International Energy
   Agency (IEA) Solar Heating and Cooling program, Task VII on Passive and
   Hybrid Solar Low Energy Buildings...

   Although all the members of PSIC, especially the Technical Committee,
   contributed to the financial and technical support of the Guidelines,
   several contributed far beyond the call of duty. Stephen Szoke, Director
   of National Accounts, National Concrete Masonry Association, Chairman of
   PSIC's Board of Directors during the development of the Guildlines; and
   James Tann, Brick Institute of America, Region 4, Chairman of PSIC's
   Technical Committee during the development of these guidelines... 
   gave unstintingly of their time, their expertise, and their enthusiasm. 

Nick



From techcoat@soho.ios.com Wed Apr  3 14:21:11 EST 1996
Article: 661 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.ios.com!usenet
From: Alexander Ganopolsky <techcoat@soho.ios.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: 3 Apr 1996 14:28:45 GMT
Organization: Internet Online Services
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4ju1ut$5bj@news.ios.com>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-24.ts-9.hck.idt.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14755 alt.solar.thermal:661 sci.energy:47975 sci.environment:90014 sci.misc:12755 sci.research:10584

Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
> used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
> would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
> -- 
> ********************************************************************
> Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
> email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
> voice:  414-465-6563	     fax:  414-4659894
> ********************************************************************
> Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology

Please contact Technicoat, Inc. (NJ, USA)
We'll be happy to  help you.

Regards,

A. Ganopolsky
Technicoat, Inc.      http://www.finishing.com/technicoat

voice          201-568-3337
fax            201-568-6789
e-mail         techcoat@soho.ios.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr  6 21:07:52 EST 1996
Article: 662 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!news-1.csn.net!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,pa.environment,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.home.repair
Subject: Re: solar water heater sources
Date: 4 Apr 1996 06:59:17 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 213
Message-ID: <4k0dil$9ob@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4jv558$90q@its.hooked.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14760 sci.energy:47992 alt.solar.thermal:662 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1169 alt.architecture.alternative:6635 alt.home.repair:21531

Hla Tin  <genotech@hooked.net> wrote:

>If anybody knows the sources for 50 gallon solar water heaters 
>please let me know. I have a need for these for a developing country.
>I am located in California and would prefer a Calif. source.

How about combining PV and water heating?

                               .
clear corrugated         . i   T   i .  
  polycarbonate-->  .  .                   .
              .  . <--PV panel                   .
        .  .                                           .

In other words, use 4' x 12' Dynaglas polycarbonate "shingles" from SPS in
San Jose, CA (408) 997-6100 or Replex (800) 726-5151 for the roof with
Stanford Ovshinsky's new 5%-efficiency "PV shingles" in long strips UNDER the
rafters, and put some insulation up in the ridge peak, with an 8' long x 6"
diameter galvanized steel or PVC pipe water tank up there under the insulation,
with no insulation underneath the tank, so the tank is heated by solar hot air
>from  the shingle-PV cavity, or say, 2 GPM of water trickling over the 6 m^2 (?)
of PVs, collecting in a small gutter and being pumped back up to the tank,
with a tiny PV-powered pump, when the tank water temp is low, with some sort
of damper with a bimetallic spring that opens near the top of the cavity to
let the PVs run cooler, when the tank is warm enough, eg the $11 AFV-1B
automatic foundation vent made by Leslie-Locke of Atlanta (gee, what a run-on
sentence :-)

Except for the PV part, this is cheaper than conventional roof construction,
and in a cold climate, it could provide daylighting and space heat for the
house beneath, if a reflective motorized return air damper in the insulated
attic floor, hinged on the north side, tilted up to the south and a fan blew
air down from the attic peak through one of the PV cavities, in sunny times.

Ovshinsky shingles are made in California, and make about 50 w/m^2 in peak sun
at 25 C, according to engineer Jim Young at United Solar (800) 397-2083, who
says this only decreases to 45 w/m^2 at 60 C. He says the current retail price
of their least expensive product is about $4.50/peak watt.

Nick

PS: I would guess these shingles won't get cheaper quickly, from this email
dialog with Villanova University's Professor Singh, posted with permission. 

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:08:16 -0500
To: nick@ece.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
From: "Dr. P. Singh" <singh@ece.vill.edu>
Subject: Re: inexpensive PVs...

Nick:

        I am glad to see that you are getting some opportunities to contribute
to a few solar home designs. I have still not found a student group to work
on the solar shed - as soon as I do we'll follow up on that project. 

>He didn't mention that it was that complex, and I'd gotten the impression
>somehow that the substrate was ordinary cheap mild steel...

        Ovshinsky's panels used to use a Japanese steel because they could
not find an American steel manufacturer that made steel with a smooth enough
morphology to make good devices !! The process is complicated because the
amorphous silicon needs to have a low enough density of impurities and
defects in order to make devices. The amorphous silicon solar panels
actually start off as 8-10% efficiency and drop down to 5% because of
optical generation of defects in the amorphous silicon material. In
research, non-degraded 10% amorphous silicon cells have been demonstrated
but I don't think that they have reached production yet. 

        It is actually quite difficult to make solar cells that are 10%
efficient - especially over large areas. Imagine making square feet of solar
panels that are low in defects and impurities - it's not easy !! 

        The only company electrodepositing solar panels is BP Solar in
England. I'm not sure of the status of their production. 

        I hope that this information is useful to help you understand a
little more about PV processing. Please feel free to disseminate this
information to whomever you wish - but I would like you to mention me as the
source in case others wish to contact me for more information (especially on
my research work). 

        Hope we see some Sun again soon - it's quite dreary outside today.

        Pali
         
At 04:08 PM 3/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
 
 Hi Pali,
 
 >        I have a couple of corrections to make to your statements about my
 >PV research and Ovshinsky's panels.
 
 Thank you.
 
 >I am working on electroplated solar cells on transparent substrates.
 
 Sorry, I guess I missed that when you explained to me what you were doing.
 
 >The electroplating process is a low temperature process (60 C) and so could
 >potentially be used on plastic substrates with a transparent conducting
 >oxide (such as tin oxide or indium tin oxide) as the transparent contact.
 >This would allow potentially low cost devices to be manufactured since the
 >process and materials costs could both be very low. The transparent substrate
 >would also allow heat to pass through so that the use of these devices in
 >a hybrid electrical/thermal system would be a great idea. It also makes
 >a lot of sense to use these types of PV cells in a hybrid solar collector
 >with a heat exchanger because that would allow the cells to operate a
 >little more efficiently !!
 
 I do recall your mentioning that a little company in Maryland was actually
 producing these... Ovshinsky PVs make 50 w/m^2 in peak sun at 20 C, and 45 w
 at 60 C. I wonder about the efficiency of your plated cells might be at
 40-60 C, ie water heating temps... Or will that damage them?
 
 In Ovshinsky's case, the PVs would absorb 90% of the sun as heat, which might
 heat air or water directly, but in your case, I guess that 90% would shine on
 through the  cell to strike a dark surface, perhaps behind another transparent
 layer with an air gap on each side, so your cells would run cooler in this
 application, I guess. 
 
 >I will keep you informed as to how the research is going but don't hold
 >your breath - after all it is research and may take a few years to get to
 >a point before it is commercially viable. 
 
 Sure... Altho you seem to be more interested in coming up with a practical
 product than many other scientists and professors... I'd be happy to post 
 some edited version of this email of yours to our AE list, about 500 amateurs
 worldwide, and a few professionals, with your permission, anon if you like.
 Most of the info they get about PVs comes from fairly slanted advertising and
 press releases.
 
 >        In terms of Ovshinsky's cells, these are amorphous silicon alloys
 >that are made by a plasma assisted chemical vapor deposition process. Those
 >big chambers that you have seen that look like a newpaper press are in fact
 >evacuated chambers in which gases of SiH4, GeH4, CH4, PH3 (phosphine),
 >AsH3(arsine) and B2H6 (diborane) flow. An RF plasma is used to break down
 >these gases and the Silicon, germanium, carbon, hydrogen and dopant
 >components are driven to the stainless steel substrate by the capacitive DC
 >self-bias between anode and cathode capacitor plates.
 
 He didn't mention that it was that complex, and I'd gotten the impression
 somehow that the substrate was ordinary cheap mild steel...
 
 >The multiple chambers are used to deposit individual layers of a device
 >that may have as many as 10-12 layers !! This is not an inherently cheap
 >process in small scale production (<10MW/yr.) and so the selling price of
 >$4.50 a peak Watt is about the production price of these cells.
 
 I wonder why this has to be so complicated, if they are only aiming at
 5% efficiency? These things are basically just large area PN junctions
 with carefully non-shading top electrode, no? Not CMOS microprocessors...
 
 >(USSC is very secretive about its books and so the exact production price
 >is generally not known
 
 Jim Young of USSC gave me that "retail price." I assumed these things cost
 them a lot less to make, at 5% efficiency, and that USSC was charging what
 the market will bear, and making lots of money competing against crystalline
 cells, where mounting area is not a big factor. John Page also mentioned
 that Ovshinsky seemed to leave out some details in his talk. 
 
 >but Solarex's
 >Thin Film Division makes a similar product and they are selling the cells
 >for more than it costs to make them). As far as I am aware only the Solarex
 >polycrystalline silicon cell division is making money as a solar cell
 >manufacturer and they are selling at about $3.50 a peak Watt for large
 >orders. There is a joint venture between Enron Corp. and Amoco (Solarex's
 >parent company) to make a 10 MW/yr. thin film PV manufacturing facility in
 >Virginia. Until now the amorphous silicon community has said that the cost
 >of amorphous silicon PV will drop dramatically (down to less than $1/Wp) if
 >they could take advantage of economies of scale and produce at least 10MWp/yr.
 
 Seems like they have been saying that for 30 years :-) I read a paper
 by Ovshinsky in Physics Review in about 1966...
 
 >Enron has called their bluff and so let's see what happens !! Keep posted.
 
 OK...
 
 >In the meantime Solarex's polycrystalline silicon cell division is
 >ramping up to increase their production capacity three-fold and Siemens
 >Solar (what used to be ARCO Solar) is also increasing production. So there
 >is a growing market for PV but primarily for remote applications in
 >developing countries. 
 
 The figure I heard is that 80% of our PV production goes overseas, a lot
 of that to the 2 vbillion people  in the world who have no elecrcity at all. 
 Just mud and tin huts with dry cells and candles, I guess.
  
 >        I agree that we should start any solar home design with trying to
 >meet the heating load of a house through good passive solar design (after
 >insulating the house as well as possible) and then look to fund PV to supply
 >the necessary but small electric load (if economically justified). 
 
 Good. Would you still like a solar shed in your yard?
 
 >        I'm still looking for students for solar homes projects - I'll let
 >you know if I get any bites. 
 
 Thanks. I'm going to try to show up for the second day of the current
 senior project talks. Dr. K sent me a schedule. Meanwhile, I'm helping
 design a 100% solar house in Lebanon, PA, and it looks like I might
 be helping design another in Seattle, where they have no sun :-), and my
 episcopal friend Father Jim Evans from Phoenixville, who has built about
 500 low income houses in this area over the last 10 years or so, some with
 his own hands, says he'd like me to help figure out how to make cheaper
 electricity for people in St Kitts, which has lots of wind, 16 mph average
 in some places, and some dormant volcanos with geothermal potential. He's
 building a conference center surrounded by 50 new vacation homes, which
 may want solar water heaters in the roofs, combined with PVs?

Nick



From morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us Sat Apr  6 21:07:52 EST 1996
Article: 663 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!cyclops.dsphere.net!noc-annex1-p12.dsphere.net!morris
From: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:53:03 pdt
Organization: Organization? Not much around here...
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <morris.170.00BF2EE5@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net> <4ju1ut$5bj@news.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: noc-annex1-p12.dsphere.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14762 alt.solar.thermal:663 sci.energy:48008 sci.environment:90195 sci.misc:12795 sci.research:10605

Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint

Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net> wrote:

: I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
: used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
: would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
: ********************************************************************
: Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
: email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
: voice:  414-465-6563       fax:  414-4659894
: ********************************************************************
: Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology

Contact my uncle's company: AEF Marketing at 818-546-2330 and
ask Jack Hershey about KrystalKote. Tell him Mike sent you.

 



From petertyj@mail.ccil.net Sat Apr  6 21:07:52 EST 1996
Article: 664 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ee.net!usenet
From: Pete Tyjewski <petertyj@mail.ccil.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.misc,sci.research
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: 4 Apr 1996 20:51:24 GMT
Organization: eNET News Server 1
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4k1coc$5tq@news.ee.net>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net> <4jqb5b$fn9@news2.ios.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port105.ccil.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14763 alt.solar.thermal:664 sci.energy:48009 sci.environment:90196 sci.misc:12796 sci.research:10606

jbh@haven.ios.com (JoshuaHalpern) wrote:
>Laurie Neverman (pes@netnet.net) wrote:
>: I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
>: used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
>: would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
>: -- 
>: ********************************************************************
>: Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
>: email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
>: voice:  414-465-6563	     fax:  414-4659894
>: ********************************************************************
>: Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology
>McMasters (a large supply company) stocks a black paint that can
>be used up to 300 C (or maybe even more)
>
>Regards
>Josh Halpern
>
You must find a plating house to treat your absorbant surface with black 
crome plating
I has alpha 92% epilson of 10% 
black nickle if almost as good
the best paint Ive heard of is manfactured by 3M but it epsilon is 40%
but then you dont have to worry about the 300C
Pete Tyjewski




From thermomax@softaid.net Sat Apr  6 21:07:53 EST 1996
Article: 665 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.interpath.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!sis2.softaid.net!usenet
From: thermomax@softaid.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Searching for high temp selective surface paint
Date: 4 Apr 1996 14:28:13 GMT
Organization: Thermomax, Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector, Tel: USA (410) 997-0778
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4k0m9t$1jk@sis2.softaid.net>
References: <315C36B2.656C@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: thermomax.softaid.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net> writes:
>  I'm trying to locate a manufacturer of high temperature spray paint to be 
>  used as a selective surface coating for a solar thermal absorber.  I 
>  would appreciate any information on the subject.  Thanks.
>  -- 
>  ********************************************************************
>  Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
>  email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
>  voice:  414-465-6563	     fax:  414-4659894
>  ********************************************************************
>  Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology
>  
>>>>


You may contact Dr. K. Raghunathan @ (908) 463-1220. He manufactures blacke 
crome and selective coating.
******************************************************************************
Thermomax Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector
"Worldwide Leadership in Solar Heating System"
Home Page: http://www.thermomax.com/thermomax/
e-mail: info@thermomax.com
Phone: USA (410) 997-0778
Fax: USA (410) 997-0779
USA Offices:
6193 Wooded Run Drive
Columbia, MD 21044
USA
******************************************************************************





From iddd@cnct.com Sat Apr  6 21:07:53 EST 1996
Article: 666 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.thecia.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.new-york.net!cnct.com!cnct.com!not-for-mail
From: iddd@cnct.com (iddd)
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.solar,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.spam,alt.spam.barf!alt.suicide,alt.support,alt.support.anxiety-panic,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.flame,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.depression.seasonal,alt.support.diabetes,alt.support.diet,alt.support.disabled-artists,
Subject: Anarschit vs Marxism
Date: 6 Apr 1996 03:14:19 -0500
Organization: The Connection http://www.cnct.com
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4k594r$icm@cnct.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnct.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.labor-unions:2172 alt.society.mental-health:2699 alt.society.resistance:5500 alt.society.revolution:16391 alt.society.sovereign:13075 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1173 alt.solar.thermal:666 alt.spam:7088 alt.support:10891 alt.support.anxiety-panic:13908 alt.support.depression:87182 alt.support.depression.flame:81 alt.support.depression.manic:3041 alt.support.depression.seasonal:1452 alt.support.diet:39402

[ Article crossposted from alt.society.anarchy ]
[ Author was michael lepore ]
[ Posted on 3 Apr 1996 22:25:37 GMT ]

>: 	I don't know where you studied science, but no modern science, 
> with the exception of marxism, uses the dialectical method.  My science 

They just don't call it dialectics.  Every science now recognizes the
transformation of quantity into quality -- in everything from evolution
to the potential barrier of the atomic nucleus.  The whole basis of 
the calculus is the reconciliation of contradiction:  a finite value
is an infinitely large number of infinitely small pieces.  
In a way, it's all dialectics.  

What needs to be said is that dialectics isn't a type of _logic_;
it cannot distinguish between a true proposition and a false one.
It is a heuristic.

                                        M. Lepore



From iddd@cnct.com Sat Apr  6 21:07:54 EST 1996
Article: 667 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.cuhk.edu.hk!newsfeeder.ust.hk!nntp.hk.super.net!news.iij.ad.jp!rim.or.jp!news.kddnet.ad.jp!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.new-york.net!cnct.com!cnct.com!not-for-mail
From: iddd@cnct.com (iddd)
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.solar,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.spam,alt.spam.barf!alt.suicide,alt.support,alt.support.anxiety-panic,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.flame,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.depression.seasonal,alt.support.diabetes,alt.support.diet,alt.support.disabled-artists,
Subject: Anarschit vs Marxism
Date: 6 Apr 1996 03:14:32 -0500
Organization: The Connection http://www.cnct.com
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4k5958$id2@cnct.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnct.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.labor-unions:2173 alt.society.mental-health:2700 alt.society.resistance:5501 alt.society.revolution:16393 alt.society.sovereign:13079 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1174 alt.solar.thermal:667 alt.spam:7089 alt.support:10892 alt.support.anxiety-panic:13914 alt.support.depression:87201 alt.support.depression.flame:82 alt.support.depression.manic:3042 alt.support.depression.seasonal:1454 alt.support.diet:39407

[ Article crossposted from alt.society.anarchy ]
[ Author was iddd ]
[ Posted on 6 Apr 1996 02:46:18 -0500 ]

According to your weak and feabile mind confused by endless choices of 
idle subjective speculations your opionion that all is opinion is too  an 
opinion .... for which I sugestion your absenion and every one's 
ansension till you and they can recognize reality least you bite only of 
the tree of knowledge and surely die........


michael lepore (lepore89@matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote:
: >: 	I don't know where you studied science, but no modern science, 
: > with the exception of marxism, uses the dialectical method.  My science 

: They just don't call it dialectics.  Every science now recognizes the
: transformation of quantity into quality -- in everything from evolution
: to the potential barrier of the atomic nucleus.  The whole basis of 
: the calculus is the reconciliation of contradiction:  a finite value
: is an infinitely large number of infinitely small pieces.  
: In a way, it's all dialectics.  

: What needs to be said is that dialectics isn't a type of _logic_;
: it cannot distinguish between a true proposition and a false one.
: It is a heuristic.

:                                         M. Lepore



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr  6 21:07:54 EST 1996
Article: 668 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A solar greenhouse
Date: 6 Apr 1996 08:16:01 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 241
Message-ID: <4k5qqh$o8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4j6osk$a30@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jjcc1$q0c@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jrhk4$7nn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: restoring an oil-fired greenhouse
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48035 alt.energy.renewable:14782 bit.listserv.geodesic:4532 alt.architecture.alternative:6651 sci.environment:90333 alt.home.repair:21683 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6008 alt.solar.thermal:668

There has a plan to create a new wetland as well as restore an old greenhouse,
perhaps, at 121 Wartman Road owned by the Perkiomen Valley School District
in SE Pennsylvania, that looks approximately like this:

                                              N
                                      |       16'     |
The greenhouse sits on a cinder       ................. ---
block foundation that rises 2-3'      .       .       .
above the ground. The greenhouse      .       .       .
itself is made of metal angles and    .       .       .
glazing bars to fit overlapping       .       .       .
single panes of glass approximately   .       .       .
2' x 1.5' each. Above the block wall  .       .       .
is about 2' of vertical glass, then   .       .       .
another 4' or so of glass sloped at  W.       .       . 32' E
slightly less than a 1:1 pitch.       .       .       .
More than half of the panes of glass  .       .       .
are broken. There are no ventilation  .       .       . (These ASCII
fans, but the top sashes can be       .       .       .  pictures make
cranked open. The greenhouse has no   .       .       .  more sense in
insulation. Inside the walls there    .       .       .  a non-kerning
are two block troughs about 4' wide   .       .       .  font like courier.)
and 3' deep with some fin-tube pipe   ................. ___
beneath bench supports. To the 
north of the greenhouse is a small            S
equipment shed which used to contain
an oil burner (?) to heat the fin-tube pipes, with an expansion tank
in the ceiling. A tree is growing up through the broken glass of the
greenhouse at the north end. The top of the tree is about 6' above the
9' peak of the greenhouse. 
                                              .         ---
                                          .       .     ~4'
How might we solar heat this          .               . ---
greenhouse? This is a                 .               .
challenging project because the       .               . ~5'
greenhouse faces the wrong way        B   B       B   B
for that. Solar greenhouses usually   B   B       B   B 
run east and west, ideally with   ...............................
a reflective and insulating 
north wall, in the northern hemisphere.

It seems to me that the way to start this project is to remove all the
glass from the roof of the greenhouse and replace the broken glass on the
sides and endwalls with some of the unbroken panes. Then stretch two layers
of polyethylene film over the greenhouse itself, using one large 32' long
roll, and inflate a poly duct tube running north and south near the peak
of the roof to stretch the two films on cold or windy days with a small
(50 watt) blower, more or less following standard commercial plastic film
greenhouse practice. On warm calm sunny days the poly duct would be flat,
letting the two poly films form one surface, which would decrease the
R-value and increase the solar transmission, and save electricity. (The
cost of running a 50 watt blower 24 hours per day is about $50 per year.)

Next it seems like a good idea to remove the two tilting interior block walls
of the troughs and replace them with OSB or plywood walls with pressure
treated 2 x 4 bracing, to make a box that will be lined with some foamboard
and single pieces of EPDM rubber to make two water troughs about 32' long
x 4' wide x 2' deep, below the benches, to add about 512 ft^3 x 64 = 33K Btu/F
of thermal mass to the greenhouse. 

We might add another layer of plastic film inside the vertical glazing along
the walls, and a diagonal transparent roll-up R2 cover over the benches as
shown below from the south. This might be made from a 4' wide roll of bubble
pack insulation or some aluminized greenhouse fabric. 

    36 F   .         ---
       .       .     ~4'
   .               . ---        c is the transparent roll-up cover 
   . c           c .            p is the new plywood wall
   . T c       c   . ~5'        i is insulation under the plant benches
   B i p       p i B            w is water 
   B w p       p w B            T is the temperature of the plant benches
..............................

Suppose we keep the plants at T=66 F, 24 hours a day, when the roll-up
covers are closed. How much energy will that take, on an average winter day?

The plants will lose heat to the outside through the side glazing and plastic
films, which altogether have an R-value of about two. Let's be conservative
and assume the greenhouse itself is also 36 F inside, like the outdoors on
an average December day in Philadelphia. Then the amount of heat that leaks
out from the plant benches on an average day, Eout, will be about

Eout = 24 hr (66F-36F) 6'x 32'/R2 x 2 benches = 138K Btu/day.

Since a south wall in Philadelphia receives an average of about 1000 Btu/ft^2
of solar heat on an average day in December, of which 600 might be captured,
this means we need a solar collection area of about 138/0.6 = 230 ft^2, eg
a south wall 8' tall and 29' long. Adding a shallow frozen reflecting pool
(skating rink?) along the wall with a pond liner draped over a perimeter earth
berm would reduce the required size of the wall by about 50%, and prevent
vegetation from blocking the sun.

How warm must the water in the troughs be to provide stored heat for, say,
5 days without sun? About 66 F + 5 days x 138K/day/33K = 87 F.

The solar collecting wall could have a foundation made from the cinder blocks
recycled from the inner trough walls. It might look like this in cross section,
seen from the west:

          |  1 to 4'  |
      --- ............g     S -->
        iii        f  g
        iii    --> f  g     f might be the 4 sections of 32' fin-tube pipe
        iii--fan?--f  g       removed from the troughs
        iii   ^    f  g
        iii   |   s   g     s might be two layers of greenhouse shadecloth
        iii       s   g
        iii      s    g     g might be a single layer of flat Replex
      8'~~~           ~       polycarbonate glazing, or perhaps polyethylene
        iii   s       g
        iii   s       g     i might be fiberglass insulation in a stud wall
	iii  s <--    g       or a more interesting wall made of strawbales 
	iii  s        g       and mortar. Ray Lehman on 8th Avenue, Trappe,
	iii           g       sells 16" x 16" x 36" R30 rye strawbales for 
	iii s         g       $1.75 each. Rodents do not like rye straw.
 .......iii...........g.....  Ray also has some interesting strawbales that 
        cbcbcbcbcbcbcbcb      are 4' wide x 4' tall x 8' long...
     3' cbcbcbcbcbcbcbcb
    --- cbcbcbcbcbcbcbcb

The sun would shine in through the glazing and heat up the greenhouse
shadecloth here, which would heat up the air in the wall as it moves from
south to north, and the warm air would rise up north of the shadecloth and
flow through the fin tubes at the top, heating some antifreeze solution
that circulates through the fin tubes with a tiny pump when the sun is
shining and the trough water needs heat. How well would this work?

Each foot of fin-tube passes about 5 Btu/hr for each degree F of air-water
temperature difference in still air, so the overall thermal conductance of
128 linear feet of fin-tube is about 640 Btu/degree F. Or higher, if a
photovoltaic fan is used to whirl some air around through this large fin-tube
radiator at the top of the wall. The overall thermal conductance of 8' x 32'
of wall glazing is about 256 Btu/F, which seems promising, since heat tends
to take the path of least resistance, ie greater conductance. So the solar
heat that enters the wall will be happier going into the fin-tubes than back
out the glazing. What would the water and air temperatures Tw and Ta be on
an average 43 F (daytime) day in December using this system, with no fan? 

Here's the equivalent electrical circuit:   (sun current source)
                                                  ---------
                                                 | 256K Btu|       |
                      Tw -------wwww---------<---| over 6  |-------| |
                                 Rf      |       | hours   |       |
                                         |        ---------
                                         |
                                         |---------wwww---------- 43 F
                                         Ta         Rg

Rf is 1/640 and Rg is 1/256, and the sun power in is about 43K Btu/hour.

This is equivalent to the following (Thevenin) circuit:
 
                                                  ---------
                                                 | 43K Btu |       |
                      Tt -------wwww---------<---|   per   |-------| |
                                 Rt      |       |   hour  |       |
                                         Ta       ---------
                                          
in which Rt = 1/(640+256) = 1/896  and Tt = 0.714 Tw + 12.3, so

Ta = Tt + 43K/896 = Tt + 48 = 0.714 Tw + 12.3 + 48 = 0.714 Tw + 60.3 F.

So if Tw = 87 F, the sunspace air temperature will be about 122 F. Not bad.

If the energy that flows into the greenhouse during a day, Ein, is equal
to the energy that flow out of the greenhouse during a day, Eout, then
we have this approximate equation: 

Ein = 1000 (256) = 256K Btu/day sun energy 
    = 6hr (Ta-43) 256 solar wall loss (day)
    +18hr (28-28) 256 solar wall loss (ie no loss at night)
    +138K             greenhouse loss (24 hr) = Eout.

Solving this equation, we find Ta = 43 + 118K/1536 = 119.8 F, which is
pretty close to 122 F. This means the water will be almost 87 F. Good.
But it looks like we will need the frozen reflecting pond here, or a bigger
wall, or more fin tubes, or a fan or two, or two layers of glazing, or
a bench curtain with a higher R-value.

With the skating rink, we might have Ein = 1000 (256) 1.5 = 384K/day, so
the sunspace air temperature would be Ta = 43 + 246K/1536 = 160 F during
the day, and the water temperature would be Tw = (160 - 60)/.714 = 140 F.
Now we're cookin':-) There is lots of extra solar heat this way, so
the greenhouse interior can be a lot warmer than 43 F during the day.
This is all done with mirrors, of course :-)

So, here is one possible solution: 
                                              N
                                      |       16'     |
                                      ................. ---
 .....................                .       .       .
 .                   .                .       .       .
 .   chicken coop    .                .       .       .
 .                   .                .       .       .
 .                   .                .       .       .
 .                   .                .       .       .
 .....................                .       .       .
                                    W .       .       . 32' E
                                      .       .       .
                                      .       .       .
                                      .       .       .
                                      .       .       .
                                      .       .       .
                     ..................       .       . 
                     .    straw wall  .       .       .  
                     .......................glass...... ___
                  4' .         solar wall             .
            .....................................................
            .        |               32'              |         .
            .                                                   .
            .                   reflecting pool                 .
         16'.          made from a single roll of 20' wide      .
            .              EPDM rubber roofing material         .
            .                                                   .
            .                      <--  50' -->                 .
            .....................................................

                                     S

                                       36 F   .         ---
                     .....................        ..... ~4'
                     .                .               . ---     
                     .                . c           c .        
                  8' .   solar wall   . T c       c   . ~5'   
                     .                B i p       p i B      
            .        .                B w p       p w B         .
.........................................................................

Happy Easter, everyone.

Nick

    My favorite structure on this property is a 12' x 20' dilapidated chicken
    coop, with the long dimension running EW, the right way to orient a solar
    structure. It has a roof that slopes up 2' from the north to the south
    along the 12' dimension. Part of the building was probably used for plant
    propagation, since there is a bench on the south side behind some windows,
    with an old green 4" x 6" box on the wall marked "Mist-a-Matic," made by
    E C Geiger of North Wales, PA. More about that chicken coop later...



From Mac.NewsWatcher@epix.net Sat Apr  6 21:07:54 EST 1996
Article: 669 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!news-1.csn.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.epix.net!qrvlppp79.epix.net!user
From: Mac.NewsWatcher@epix.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Collector to produce hot water
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 14:48:42 -0400
Organization: epix.net
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <Mac.NewsWatcher-0504961448420001@qrvlppp79.epix.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: qrvlppp79.epix.net

I have been fooling around with the idea of building a collector to
produce hot water for the house(washing,heating,etc.) does anyone have a
proven plan for a solar collector for this purpose? i live in PA.


From mmnmt@mcn.net Sun Apr  7 09:05:24 EDT 1996
Article: 670 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.ossi.com!news.aimnet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.mcn.net!gfpm01-034
From: mmnmt@mcn.net (M. Tenney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Is America Energy Conscious?
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 96 03:12:43 GMT
Organization: Montana Communications Network
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4k716v$5c@news.mcn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gfpm01-034.mcn.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3

Heat loss & gain is costly & uncomfortable!  Thermal Shields can 
take the heat out of sunlight.  For more information on how you can 
stop heat from escaping from your glass and learn more about this 
remarkable, retractable energy efficient solar shield system, please 
email for a brochure.

ENERGY7254@aol.com

Not just anyone can take the heat out of sunlight...THERMAL SHIELDS 
can!


From dale@xs4all.nl Sun Apr  7 09:05:24 EDT 1996
Article: 671 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sun4nl!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Inexpensive Solar Water Heater
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 18:18:48 +0000
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 136
Message-ID: <31656408.40C9@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd09-22.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

I want to build a solar hot water heater. I have seen some very =

expensive systems sold commercially, but we need something much cheaper =

(we are a foundation running a children=B9s camp in Poland).

I have seen lots of designs for inexpensive units, but they all seem to =

have been done by people who have not actually built or tested such a =

unit, but rather have just dreamed one up. =

Some of the designs I have seen come with no information about why =

various choices were made. I would like to start a discussion on this =

subject, and would hope that someone with experience as well as some =

theoreticians would join the discussion.

I want to consider two systems. One for household hot water, and the =

other for heating a small pool or hot tub. =


I want to eliminate a two fluid system because it would be too =

complicated and expensive. I want to solve the freezing problem by =

putting the collector in a glass porch which is attached to the house, =

or perhaps just under the roof behind a purpose built skylight rather =

than on the roof, or in the case of the hot tub, for summer use only. We =

are at 54 degrees north, in the coldest part of Poland.

Although we have electricity on the site, we cannot rely on it.

I have two ideas for circulating the water.  =

One is to pump it with a low voltage volt pump which is run directly off =

a solar cell array. No batteries involved. It will only pump during the =

day, but that=B9s ok since the water will be heated only when the sun is =

out anyway.

Another possibility, suggested by a badly written book on the subject, =

is to place the collector below the storage, and let convection move the =

hot water up to the storage tank or hot tub.

Some questions.
Would this latter system really work in practice? Is there anyone out =

there with experience with such a system? If so what diameter pipes were =

used? What sort of collector? What distance between the collector and =

the storage? Where was this done? What temperatures were achieved, and =

at what times of year?

With the former system, does anyone know of any pumps that will work =

this way, driven only by sun power without intervening batteries? Do you =

know of such a pump that could be purchased in Europe, or better do you =

know of anyone who would donate one to us?
What is the best collector to use?  We have lots of space, but not lots =

of money. Covering the unit with an expensive insulating glass would =

certainly give higher temperatures and faster heating, but would the =

price difference be worth it? Or without a glass cover, would the =

temperature be too low to be useable? (I am advised that here, in =

Holland, where I live, government regulations require a minimum =

temperature in the hot water tank of 60 degrees C. Otherwise bacteria =

can grow, creating health problems.) =

Would plastic sheeting at less than $1. per sq meter be a better deal =

than double insulated glass at $150. or more per square meter, or  would =

it not work? What about insulating bubble plastic used by some green =

houses, a kind of bubble wrap which givers modest insulation at a very =

low price? Would plane single glass be best?

What kind of collector should we have? What kind and diameter of pipe is =

best? Cheap black plastic hose seems like a good solution, but such =

plastics often disintegrate rapidly at high temperatures. Is there =

anyone out there with experience in this, or who has a knowledge of =

plastics and what to look for and what to avoid?

How about just letting the water spill over a trough and flow down over =

black plastic sheeting place under glass.?

Anyway these are some of the questions I have as I start this quest. =

Perhaps there is a FAQ that I don=B9t know about. If so and the answers =

are there, please direct me to it. Likewise if there is a good book on =

the subject, with answers to these sort of questions please direct me =

too it.

In any case I would like to hear from people who have had experience in =

this or are in a position to do some experimenting and calculating for =

us.

You can answer to this news group, or write me directly, or better do =

both. =


Thanks,
dale


From iddd@cnct.com Sun Apr  7 09:05:25 EDT 1996
Article: 672 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!msunews!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news-relay.us.dell.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.new-york.net!cnct.com!cnct.com!not-for-mail
From: iddd@cnct.com (iddd)
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.solar,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.spam,alt.spam.barf!alt.suicide,alt.support,alt.support.anxiety-panic,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.flame,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.depression.seasonal,alt.support.diabetes,alt.support.diet,alt.support.disabled-artists,
Subject: Anarschit vs Marxism
Date: 6 Apr 1996 03:14:04 -0500
Organization: The Connection http://www.cnct.com
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <4k594c$ibr@cnct.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnct.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.labor-unions:2180 alt.society.mental-health:2710 alt.society.resistance:5507 alt.society.revolution:16416 alt.society.sovereign:13099 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1178 alt.solar.thermal:672 alt.spam:7101 alt.support:10911 alt.support.anxiety-panic:13985 alt.support.depression:87432 alt.support.depression.flame:83 alt.support.depression.manic:3048 alt.support.depression.seasonal:1468 alt.support.diet:39501

[ Article crossposted from alt.society.anarchy ]
[ Author was iddd ]
[ Posted on 1 Apr 1996 10:24:25 -0500 ]

[ Article crossposted from alt.politics.socialism.trotsky ]
[ Author was iddd ]
[ Posted on 1 Apr 1996 09:53:27 -0500 ]

You are such a hypocrite Mr. Stein and a disgrace to the Jewish peoplefor 
Miamonides was a dilaectical thinker as was Locke and Thomas Paine and 
Socrates and Thomas Jefferson and many GREAT AMERICANS..only in this case 
you denigrate the oppression for you have only excuses for yourself..Yes 
the seeds of Capitalism's ruin will be sown by Capitalism itself look at 
Victorian England the American Colonies,,,the Mexican debt crisis(1996)US 
debt WOrld War I and II...McCarthyism. and the civil War of 1861.YOU 
state the following which I further rebut as you are representitive of 
the modern irresponsible groups of people who politically I describes as 
Modern cut-throats who act as priviteers nothing more and where the 
pirates as the surge of the seven seas no longers exist to thrreatened 
civilized countries and peoples so will you and the corporations of the 
world.



JS> I don't have much use for dialectical reasoning.  I am one of 
JS>those "empiricists" that Lenin warned you about. The dialectical method
JS>is flawed, because in order to make the "categories" come outright, one
JS>usually has to assume what is trying to be proved. Thus Marx assumed
JS>that socialism would follow capitalism, because of capitalism's
JS>"contradictions", although there is no real scientific justification for
JS>this assumption. Capitalism could just as well be followed by something
JS>else, perhaps even worse, say fascism or Stalinism, or environmental
JS>catastrophe. It also does not follow then that capitalism is somehow
JS>laying the groundwork for socialism and is thus, a "historical necessity".
JS> The reason I said Marxist theory can lead to some political opportunism
JS>is that if you assume that capitalism is a necessary stage which society 
JS>must go through to develop the means of production to the point where
JS>socialism is viable, then it only follows that a good marxist might
JS>under certain circumstances take the side of the capitalists against
JS>the workers. By developing the means of production, the capitalists
JS>are supposedly laying the ground for their own destruction. So even
JS>if workers suffer in the short term, in the long term they will 
JS>benefit by the earlier arrival of socialism.:



In Jeff Stein's lengthy pontificating he first denounced the dialectical 
process then proceded in pretense to enlighten us by mean I suppose he 
would claim as rational logical and sensible. Without going into 
theslanderous accusations which are bandied about I wonder if thinks it 
proper that I dare him; As to how such arguement as his could be 
formulatedconstructed and based to be made possible with out the use 
(though opportunist and self serving byy him and his part) of a dialectal 
means which is attempted in application the material conditions which 
exist?Even Bourgeios society uses dialectics though towards different 
ends and based on different perceptions of History I reject the pop 
theories which he and others use taking out of context and defering 
issues on the basis of a false perception of chaos random events 
subjective expressionisticstates said to be existing in nature and as 
such are the luxurious choices for the most part available for the most 
part to those who can afford such luxuries.As a poor person my life's 
choices are determined for me. What schools I will go to what a I will 
eat what I will wear entertainment and often what hours and friends I 
will keep.Mister Stein you can not decry the logical basis and role 
Nature plays in the universe it detmines that we must walk with our feet 
firmly planted on the grounds without assistance though you wish your 
head to be floated ten feet off the ground like a "Cheshire cat" in 
creations even Alice in wonderland did not reveal. All science uses 
dialects! Even the best well known metaphysists claims they can prove 
what they state but everyone knows what's snake oil and you represent not 
an innocent party but a salesman. I don't care how many virtual reality 
you computer can creat they and you and that PC are grounded in a reality 
in the material world if the juice is cut you're out and so you are only 
allowed to state what you say because at present you are allowed to not 
because of any great unexplanable set of circumstances.If you wish to 
state there is no basis except one's opinion in argumentthen say say for 
your self first laugh at yourself and don't belittle those who try and do 
a lot more than talk.Mr Stein is also slandering the dead by calling 
Comrade Karl Marx an Anti-SEmite while the NAZI BASTARDS denigrate him as 
a JEW the two both are sick or maybe the same.


P.O.Box 181 Knickerbocker Station
Manhattan, New York 10002





From hurtwood@interpath.com Sun Apr  7 09:05:25 EDT 1996
Article: 673 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.interpath.net!usenet
From: Melissa Porter <hurtwood@interpath.com>
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.solar,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.spam,alt.spam.barf!alt.suicide,alt.support,alt.support.anxiety-pani
Subject: Re: Anarschit vs Marxism
Date: 7 Apr 1996 09:13:00 GMT
Organization: homesickness
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4k80us$rdl@news.interpath.net>
References: <4k594c$ibr@cnct.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hurtwood.pdial.interpath.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; 68K)
X-URL: news:4k594c$ibr@cnct.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.labor-unions:2181 alt.society.mental-health:2711 alt.society.resistance:5508 alt.society.revolution:16418 alt.society.sovereign:13100 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1179 alt.solar.thermal:673 alt.spam:7102 alt.support:10915

PLEASE remove alt.support.depression from your followups... thanks.

Melissa
--------------------------------------------
The fundamentals of being human don't change
with the labels we apply to them.




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:07 EDT 1996
Article: 693 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: A tensile roof?
Date: 14 Apr 1996 11:47:11 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <4kr6lv$n9e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4k8du6$6jq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko4ig$dpf@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4kpf7m$o3o_001@nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48296 alt.energy.renewable:14863 bit.listserv.geodesic:4618 alt.architecture.alternative:6712 sci.environment:91138 alt.home.repair:22184 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6127 alt.solar.thermal:693 misc.consumers.frugal-living:16211

paul milligan <pjm@nando.net> wrote:
>   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>~~>A quote from _The Unbelievable Bubble Book_, by John Cassidy...
>~~>
>~~>  Once the World's Leading Fizzicist, Dr. Aristid V. Grosse, for many years
>~~>  the director of the Research Institute at Temple University, spent his
>~~>  youth in the study of high-energy particle physics. He worked on the
>~~>  Manhattan Project... published numerous scientific papers and to all
>~~>  appearances, pursued a dignified... distinguished, scientific career...

>	Nick, I think you should take a sabbatical, and do a long involved
>study that features Dr. Grosse standing in front of one of your collectors.

Hey, I don't work at Villanova... I'm always on sabbatical :-)
And I don't do "collectors."

OK, OK, OK, that bubble roof might not be very practical for the location
near the high school, because some students might find it amusing to pop
the roof with their knives in fits of pique. 
 
So maybe we should cover it with some burlap and chicken wire and 1/2" of
cement, and replace the telephone pole posts and beams underneath with 2 x 4s 
to hold up the plastic film ceiling over the shadecloth. But that lets out
daylighting thru the ceiling.... Hmmm. Let's take another more fundamental
look. We don't really want sun shining thru the ceiling in summertime, but
we do want light and heat coming in thru the south wall in the winter, and
we would still like to try to take advantage of the spirit of section 1610.2 
of the 1993 BOCA code, which defines a "continuously heated greenhouse" as

  a production or retail greenhouse with a constantly maintained interior
  temperature of 50 F or more during winter months... the greenhouse roof
  material shall have a thermal resistance (R) less than 2.0...

Which we'd interpret to mean that one can turn off the bubble pump and reduce
the R-value when it is snowing, thus melting the snow with stored solar heat,
which is similar to the practice of local commercial growers, who deflate
their poly film greenhouse pillows when it snows to reduce their R-value from
1.2 to 0.8. 

Section 1610.4 of the code goes on to say "The flat-roof snow load on
continuously heated greenhouses shall be calculated using the following
formula..." which comes out to be 12 psf where I live...
  
And it further drones on:

  Retail greenhouse: A greenhouse occupied for growing large numbers
  of flowers and plants and having general public access for the purposes
  of viewing and purchasing the various products. Included in this category
  are greenhouses occupied for educational purposes.

So how about looking again at something like that tensile structure with
the profile shown below, from the east:

                       .
                       .     .                               
                     . .             . ferrocement             
		    .  .                       .           
		   .16'. poly film bubble ceiling        .   ...........
		  .-24'.                           .         .         .
		 .     .                                     . chicken .
         pond   .      .<-              38'     .          ->.   coop  .
    ............................................p ~~~~~~~~~ p................
                         thermal storage pond->  ppppppppppp
  
This might look like a 16' x 66' transparent wall from the south. The roof
might be made with 4' wide chicken wire strips running north and south, wired
together and joined with pressure-treated 2x4s that sandwich the chicken wire,
like this:
                       .........
                       . NS 2x4.
                       .........  -- 1/2" cement --
                  ccccccccc cccccccccc  chicken wire
                  bbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbb  burlap
                  pppppppppppppppppppppppp  poly film or EPDM
                       .........                                             
                       . NS 2x4.
                       .........
..............................................................
                2 x 4 on edge, running EW

..............................................................
                       . spacer.
		       .       .
		       .       .
		       .       .
		       .........
                         steel 
                         cable                 

Let's see. How big does the steel cable have to be? If the roof has a
nice slump in the middle, and the distance from top to cable is, say, 6',
we need roughly 20 psf x 32 x 4'/2 = T 4'/32', where T is the cable tension,
so T = 10240 pounds. A 10K/50K diameter steel cable every 4'? That's not bad,
but there will be a lot of force trying to collapse the north and south walls
inwards... This would work better with a few posts in the middle, as before.
Then we can reduce the height of the south roof peak to 16', vs 24'. We don't
need THAT much solar heat. Recall that we only needed a roof R-value of 1.7
with bubbles in place to make this work.

So the roof might look like this in slightly more detail, with different
dimensions:

                    48'                             
         r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r           .      32'
         P  ppp  P  ppp  P  ppp  P           P       .
     16' PpppppppPpppppppPpppppppP           PpppppppPppppppp.
         P       P       P       P           P       P       P 8'
    .....P.......P.......P.......P...     ...P.......P.......P......

                                             PsssssssPsssssss.
         p is the poly film ceiling here,    .       .       .
           made in 3 16' x 32' pillows,      .       .       .
           sloped slightly upwards from      .       .       .
           north to south, with the bubble   PsssssssPsssssss.
           pipes along the north edge.       .       .       .
                                             .       .       .
         The poly film would attach along    .       .       .
           struts s, which would be in       PsssssssPsssssss.
           compression to keep the roof      .       .       .
           from collapsing.                  .       .       .
                                             .       .       .
                                             PsssssssPsssssss.

There would be a layer of greenhouse shadecloth under the poly film and ropes
on 4' centers under that. Struts s might look like this from the south:

               poly film      poly film
               poly film      poly film
                         ww ww aluminum extrusion clamps
               30% greenhouse shadecloth 
                       .........
                       . NS 2x4. (on 16' centers)
                       .........  
                         . 2 .
              <--EW rope . x . EW rope -->  
...NS rope...            . 4 .             ... NS rope...
			 .....
                           |          4'          |

There, is that better, Paul?

Nick



From skunksdelight@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 18 11:17:07 EDT 1996
Article: 694 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!lepidopteran.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Francis Council <skunksdelight@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: 14 Apr 1996 21:05:43 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <316D7755.F7C2C91@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE> <316EB4A6.4B78@mail.ccil.net> <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.orlando-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22ATT (Windows; U; 16bit)
To: jim.straker@zetnet.co.uk
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48299 alt.energy.renewable:14866 alt.solar.thermal:694

Are you interested in disucssions where a photovoltaic panel is connected 
to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the solar 
energy?  The design is matter of using common sense.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:08 EDT 1996
Article: 695 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Optical concentration of solar energy
Date: 15 Apr 1996 07:07:30 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4ktali$3rb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4ksner$p69@tribune.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Keywords: solar energy, magnifying lens, concentration.
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14870 sci.energy:48314 alt.solar.thermal:695 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1197 alt.architecture.alternative:6717 sci.engr.lighting:4599 bit.listserv.geodesic:4624 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6136

David Jones <Pommie@cris.com> wrote:

>...does anyone know of a source for a magnifying lens to concentrate sunlight
>in a straight line, instead of the usual circular form.

Edmund Scientific and 3M sell cylindrical lens material, but for a large area,
perhaps a linear parabolic reflector would be less expensive, eg this solar
greenhouse and water heater that might be built quickly for less than $1,000
in materials to provide winter space heating and domestic hot water and fresh
vegetables and flowers for a nearby home or the urban building or swimming
pool underneath a flat roof. 

       .                                     ---
               .
      .             .
                        .
 <- S.                     .                 12'
                              .   y
    .    (32' long)             . |     z
       /                         .|   /  
   . /                            . /
x <...........................f............. ---
              water trench->.     .
                             .....

The reflective sheathing might be screwed to 16' kerfed 2 x 4s bent into a
4.5:1 concentrating parabolic shape, with the reflective surface inside the
greenhouse. This reflector would have a focus at about f=2.68' (y^2 = 4fx).

Howard Reichmuth, PE, designed the Ecotope greenhouse, a similar structure
built 20 years ago near Seattle. He's built several steam generators with
concentration ratios of 5 or 6. His advice: "Don't stand in the focus.
I almost melted a pair of boots."

US Patent number 4,129,120, expired 12/12/95, inventor Norman Saunders, PE,
describes an efficient concentrating steam generator using a flat transparent
boiler with a dark grate inside, just under the water surface. Copies of US
patents can be obtained for $3 each from the Superintendent of Patents and
Trademarks, Washington, DC 20231.

>	The idea is to use for domestic heating and/or energy generation a 
>linear shaped lens to concentrate solar energy on a pipe where the focus 
>of the lens corresponds to the shape of a pipe ie. a line of focused 
>sunlight instead of a spot.

Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_, 2nd edition,
Wiley, 1991, covers the design of these and other _non-focusing_ Winston CPCs,
concentrators which accept all light coming from within a certain beamwidth...

>I would guess this to be a cheap item to produce if someone is doing it...

Richard Komp is doing it at SunWatt, RR 1, Box 7751, Jonesport ME 04606,
207-967-5945. His hybrid 2:1 concentrating solar panels produce 150 Watts 
of electric power and 1600 Watts of water heating power simultaneously,
rounding up half the usual number of photovoltaic suspects. 

>	I live in Texas and have an abundance of sunlight for most of the 
>year, so would like to experiment with saving energy and money.

Hey, c'mon over to the Renewable and Alternative Energy Conference in Abilene
>from  4/22-23, where I'll be holding forth on solar closets and sunspaces for
house and water heating. The cost is only $40 to cover meals. Call Johnnie 
Lou Avery at 915-235-7332, or send her a check at Texas State Technical
College, 300 College Drive, Sweetwater, TX 79556.

Or come to Roland Winston's concentrator workshop in Philadelphia on 5/3,
>from  10:30-3 PM. $50/person by 4/22, ($15 for students, not including lunch.)
Send your checks or Faxes with credit card numbers to Kathleen DeLuca at
The Franklin Institute, Benjamin Franklin Parkway at 20th Street, Phila, PA
19103-1194, Fax 215-448-1364. Mike Nicklas, AIA, Bill Marshall, NREL,
Robert Bickmire, Institute for Energy Conversion and Morton H. Lerner,
Engineering Consultant will also be there.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:08 EDT 1996
Article: 696 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 15 Apr 1996 07:29:34 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4ktbuu$3t1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jrhk4$7nn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4k5qqh$o8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4kl3i4$rv2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48315 alt.energy.renewable:14871 bit.listserv.geodesic:4625 alt.architecture.alternative:6718 sci.environment:91225 alt.home.repair:22207 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6137 alt.solar.thermal:696

Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
 
 There was also a 12 year old doing bubble experiments. She discovered that
 if she doped her standard bubble mix (1/2 cup green Dawn, 3 Tbs glycerin,
 and 2 quarts of water) by adding 1/4 tsp of lemon juice, the bubbles lasted
 111 seconds at 80 F and 506 sec at 45 F, vs 309 sec and 185 sec for the
 standard solution. 1/4 tsp of maple syrup changed this to 431 and 345 sec.
 She also tried adding jello, perfume, and another dozen substances... Her
 parting thought was quite serious: "Dust is the enemy of bubbles."
 
 So, led by this little child, let's all buy some glycerin, and try to invent
 a bubble wall, eg two pieces of single-layer polycarbonate plastic with butyl
 tape over a plastic 1x3" frame that can be filled between with bubbles at
 night that emerge from a PVC pipe with a few holes immersed in a soapy
 solution at the bottom, connected to a small aquarium air pump with a timer?
 This could be very useful in a passive solar house, like Beadwall. Simple
 movable insulation. During the day, the sun shines in on some thermal mass,
 and at night the glazing fills up with bubbles, keeping the heat in...
 
 Ohm's law for heatflow is a good start: the amount of heat Q in Btu/hour
 that flows through a wall with area A ft^2 and R-value R and temps Ti (F) on
 one side and To on the other, is Q = (Ti-To)A/R. 
 
 Here's one bubble wall test setup, a 2' cube divided in half by a bubble wall
 that might have an R-value of 2 when empty and 12 when full. We might make
 the cube out of 2" Styrofoam with an R-value of 10. One side could be kept
 at 32 F with some melting ice at the top, with some foam on top and around
 the ice tray, and the other side could be kept at 132 F with a thermostat
 and a light bulb, with a piece of aluminum foil to shade the bubblewall from
 the bulb. How much ice water might we collect in an hour with the bubblewall
 empty and full of bubbles? What might we get for readings in each case if
 we hook up the light bulb to a kWh meter? It's nice to have two ways to
 check the heatflow through the bubble wall.
 
                        .........................      70 F room
                     .   ice     ..          .  .
                  .........................     .
                  .           ..          .     .
                  .    To     ..  Ti      . R10 .  2'
               2' .    32 F   ..  132 F   .     .
                  .           ..  light   .     .
                  .           ..  bulb    .  .
                  .........................    2'
                        1'         1' 
                              ^
                              |___ bubble wall
 
 It takes 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice, and there are 3410 Btu in a kWh.

Nobody seems to have figured this out yet. Here's a hint:

                       32 F        132 F
       70 F ----wwww----|----wwww----|----wwww----70F
                R10/A   (R2 or R12)/4     R10/A

                ---->       <----         ---->
                 Q1           Q2           Q3

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:08 EDT 1996
Article: 697 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: A lightweight plywood/bubble daylighting roof? (Attn: Hayden Cochran)
Date: 15 Apr 1996 09:19:37 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 120
Message-ID: <4ktid9$514@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko4ig$dpf@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4kpf7m$o3o_001@nando.net> <4kr6lv$n9e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48316 alt.energy.renewable:14872 bit.listserv.geodesic:4626 alt.architecture.alternative:6719 sci.environment:91226 alt.home.repair:22208 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6138 alt.solar.thermal:697 misc.consumers.frugal-living:16275 sci.engr.lighting:4600

Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
>paul milligan <pjm@nando.net> wrote:
>>   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>>~>A quote from _The Unbelievable Bubble Book_, by John Cassidy...
>>~>
>>~>  Once the World's Leading Fizzicist, Dr. Aristid V. Grosse, for many years
>>~>  the director of the Research Institute at Temple University, spent his
>>~>  youth in the study of high-energy particle physics...

>>	Nick, I think you should take a sabbatical, and do a long involved
>>study that features Dr. Grosse standing in front of one of your collectors.

Well, maybe you don't like all that chicken wire. How about this?

Still trying to take advantage of the spirit of section 1610.2 of the 1993
BOCA code, which defines a "continuously heated greenhouse" as
 
   a production or retail greenhouse with a constantly maintained interior
   temperature of 50 F or more during winter months... the greenhouse roof
   material shall have a thermal resistance (R) less than 2.0...
                   . 
                       .
                       .     .                               
                     . .             . <-- plywood or OSB under EPDM rubber
 		    .  .                       .           
 		   .20'. poly film bubble ceiling        .   ...........
 		  .    .                           .         .         .
 		 .     .                                     . chicken .
          pond  .      .<-              38'     .          ->.   coop  .
     ............................................p ~~~~~~~~~ p................
                          thermal storage pond->  ppppppppppp
   
In more detail, with different dimensions:
 
                     48'                  .          
          r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r.r           .      32'
          P  ppp  P  ppp  P  ppp  P           P       .
      20' PpppppppPpppppppPpppppppP     <--S  PpppppppPppppppp.
          P       P       P       P           P       P       P 8'
     .....P.......P.......P.......P...   pond.P.......P.......P......
 
                                              PsssssssPsssssssP
          p is the poly film ceiling here,    .   E   E   E   .
            made in 3 16' x 32' pillows,      .   W   W   W   .
            sloped slightly upwards from      .   B   B   B   .
            north to south, with the bubble   PsssssssPsssssssP
            pipes along the north edge.       .   E   E   E   .
                                              .   W   W   W   .
          The poly film would attach along    .   B   B   B   .
            struts s...                       PsssssssPsssssssP
                                              .   E   E   E   .
          EWB are the East West Beams.        .   W   W   W   .
                                              .   B   B   B   .
          r might be 2x4 rafters.             PsssssssPsssssssP
 
The roof might weigh about 15 psf, with 12 lb of snow load and 3 lb of
dead load. If the plywood or Oriented Strand Board roof has rafters on 2'
centers with 8' spans we might have f=1200 psi, W=8x2x15=240 lb, M=WL/8
=240x8x12/8=2880 in-lb, S=M/f=2.4 in^3, b=1.5" and d=sqr(6S/b)=3.09",
so we might use 2x4s as rafters.

The EWBs need to hold up 32x48x15x15/5/3=1536 pounds over their 16' span,
so if M=1536x16x12/8=36864 in-lb, S=30.72 in^3, b=3" ==> d=7.8", so we
might use 2 2x10s for EWBs, or a couple of 2x6s with a downwards king post
and a wire.

Suppose we use diagonal tension supports like this, as seen from the east:

  20'P
     P  \          EWB
     P              K              EWB
     P      t       K          /    P    \          EWB
     P        \     K       t       P       t        K          /   P
     P              K    /          P           \    K     t        P
   8'P..............K...............P................K/.............P
     P                              P                               P
     P                              P                               P
     P                              P                               P
pond.P..............................P...............................P...
     P                              P                               P
     |                             32'                              |

If the kingposts K were 6' long, the diagonals t might have an approximate
tension T such that 1536/2 = 6T/8 ==> T=1024 lb. Some twangy wires with
good attachments...

Each post P would have a load of about 32x48x15/12=1920 lb. Suppose they are
Eastern Spruce 4x4s with Cp=750 psi and E=1,200,000 psi. Then L/d=8'x12"/3.5"
=27<50, C=1920/(3.5"x3.5")=157 psi<Cp and 0.3E/((L/d)^2) =479<Cp, so perhaps
we can use 4x4 posts with a little side-bracing above.

There would be a layer of greenhouse shadecloth under the poly film and ropes
on 4' centers under that. Struts s might look like this from the south:
 
               poly film      poly film
               poly film      poly film
                         ww ww aluminum extrusion clamps
               30% greenhouse shadecloth 
                       .........
                       . NS 2x4. (on 16' centers)
                       .........  
                         . 2 .
              <--EW rope . x . EW rope -->  
...NS rope...            . 4 .             ... NS rope...
 			 .....
                           |          4'          |

The struts would only be holding up poly film pillows filled with 1-2' of
bubbles. The pillows would act as solar collectors for some of the
960x1.3x20x66'= 1.65 million Btu or 483 kWh/day average sun that would fall
on the south wall of the Perkiomen Valley wetlands structure in December.
The peak solar power would be about 160 kW. Some of that heat would be stored
in the thermal pond, with a little warm water pumped back up through the
collapsed pillows infrequently, to melt the snow off the roof. The roof
could be painted white underneath, or covered with 4' wide builder's foil
under the rafters, with an operable vent door to the rafter cavity, and
another to the outside.

Nick



From Frank.Spiegel@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE Thu Apr 18 11:17:09 EDT 1996
Article: 698 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news.dfn.de!news.uni-jena.de!news.tu-ilmenau.de!usenet
From: Frank Spiegel <Frank.Spiegel@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:44:53 +0200
Organization: Technische Universitaet Ilmenau
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31727D05.23A41BA4@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE>
References: <316D7755.F7C2C91@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE> <316EB4A6.4B78@mail.ccil.net> <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: scenic-14.rz.tu-ilmenau.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i586)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48323 alt.energy.renewable:14873 alt.solar.thermal:698

Hi,
 
> Are you interested in disucssions where a photovoltaic panel is 	> connected
> to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the >	> solar energy?  

No, not quite. I am more looking for solutions in the field of thermal
storage in a small oder medium scale (one house or at maximum a small
housing area). But I am also interested in new developments in related
fields (high-temperature-storage etc.) 

Bye,
	Frank


From redrok@pclink.com Thu Apr 18 11:17:09 EDT 1996
Article: 699 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!usenet
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: 15 Apr 1996 18:46:05 GMT
Organization: Red Rock Energy
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com>
References: <316D7755.F7C2C91@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE> <316EB4A6.4B78@mail.ccil.net> <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-17.pclink.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: skunksdelight@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48324 alt.energy.renewable:14874 alt.solar.thermal:699

I am a sckeptic Francis;

>Are you interested in disucssions where a photovoltaic panel is connected 
>to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the solar 
>energy?  The design is matter of using common sense.

Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.

1. The solar cell in a system is at best 15% efficient where a thermal
system can be over 50% efficient. Probably more.
2. The solar cell is much more expensive per square foot than the
thermal system. Probably like 4 times more expensive.

The concept of energy value needs to be discused.
Electric energy is much more valuable per BTU than just thermal energy.
Don't just waste this extra value by converting the valuable energy into
cheaper energy.

-- 
CUL8ER
Duane Johnson
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN 55110-3364
USA
redrok@pclink.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
(612)426-4766 home (615)635-5065 day




From AEI@WTAMU.EDU Thu Apr 18 11:17:09 EDT 1996
Article: 700 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!news
From: Ken Starcher <AEI@WTAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Optical concentration of solar energy
Date: 16 Apr 1996 15:10:19 GMT
Organization: ALTERNATIVE ENERGY INSTITUTE
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4l0d8r$puh@news.tamu.edu>
References: <4ksner$p69@tribune.concentric.net> <4ktali$3rb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aeimac.wtamu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12(Macintosh; I; PPC)
X-URL: news:4ktali$3rb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14881 sci.energy:48348 alt.solar.thermal:700 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1205 alt.architecture.alternative:6729 sci.engr.lighting:4609 bit.listserv.geodesic:4639 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6156


Check out Entech, they have solar collectors that are 
long troughs and use a thin film to focus light in the 
center of the valley, then they rotate the entire tube 
to track the sun.


ENTECH
P.O. Box 612246
1015 Royal Lane
Dallas Ft. Worth Airport, Texas 75261

PH 214-456-0900  fax  214-456-0904





From fred@unix.mclv.net Thu Apr 18 11:17:09 EDT 1996
Article: 701 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!terminus.intermind.net!usenet
From: fred@unix.mclv.net (Fred)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Optical concentration of solar energy
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:38:46 GMT
Organization: Intermind.net
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4l0i7q$hhc@terminus.intermind.net>
References: <4ksner$p69@tribune.concentric.net> <4ktali$3rb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp31.intermind.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:14883 sci.energy:48353 alt.solar.thermal:701 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1207 alt.architecture.alternative:6730 sci.engr.lighting:4611 bit.listserv.geodesic:4640 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6157

>David Jones <Pommie@cris.com> wrote:

>>...does anyone know of a source for a magnifying lens to concentrate sunlight
>>in a straight line, instead of the usual circular form.

There is an interesting product made in Japan called the "sun flower"
that focuses sunlight for transmission through a fibre optic cable for
lighting indoor/underground areas for growing, etc.




From pes@netnet.net Thu Apr 18 11:17:10 EDT 1996
Article: 702 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news
From: Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:40:32 -0700
Organization: Public Energy Systems
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <317405C0.789@netnet.net>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jjcc1$q0c@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4jrhk4$7nn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4k5qqh$o8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4kl3i4$rv2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.70.72.16
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48354 alt.energy.renewable:14884 bit.listserv.geodesic:4642 alt.architecture.alternative:6731 sci.environment:91391 alt.home.repair:22294 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6158 alt.solar.thermal:702

Bruce Hoglund wrote:
> 
> In article <4kl3i4$rv2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
> (Nick Pine) wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > So, led by this little child, let's all buy some glycerin, and try to invent
> > a bubble wall, eg two pieces of single-layer polycarbonate plastic with butyl
> > tape over a plastic 1x3" frame that can be filled between with bubbles at
> > night that emerge from a PVC pipe with a few holes immersed in a soapy
> > solution at the bottom, connected to a small aquarium air pump with a timer?
> > This could be very useful in a passive solar house, like Beadwall. Simple
> > movable insulation. During the day, the sun shines in on some thermal mass,
> > and at night the glazing fills up with bubbles, keeping the heat in.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Hi Nick,
> 
> Your bubble wall moveable insulation wall is a clever idea, which reminded
> me of a TV (Discovery Channel?) show I saw fairly recently (~ <1 year)
> about an artist who makes "sculptures" of double panes of glass with
> bubbles between.  It was quite beautiful, and he got surprising amounts of
> money for his art, of course art prices always surprise someone like me
> who has an extensive collection of Black Velvet Elvis & Dogs Playing Poker
> "art"  ;-)
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't remember much about the TV article.  Perhaps
> someone else does?
> 
> Bruce Hoglund
> 
> ____________________________________________________________
> 
> NOTE: The thoughts & comments above are mine alone!


It was on the Discovery Channel, and his sculptures were displayed
in malls and airports and other places.  I think he had some patents
on bubble making apparatus.

-- 
********************************************************************
Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://www.netnet.net/energy/
voice:  414-465-6563         fax:  414-4659894
********************************************************************
Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology


From st95w2rt@post.drexel.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:10 EDT 1996
Article: 703 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!calhoun2-028.resnet.drexel.edu!user
From: st95w2rt@post.drexel.edu
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar shingles?
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:48:58 -0400
Organization: Drexel University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <st95w2rt-1504961648580001@calhoun2-028.resnet.drexel.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: calhoun2-028.resnet.drexel.edu

i was wondering if anyone can help me. For my freshman design project my
friend and I are designing a solar panel to be disguised like a set of
shingles. Does anyone know anyone in the industry doing research along
these lines, especially in the philadelphia area? Also where could we get
spec sheets on current solar panels, arrays, etc.

please post back or email me at st95a258@post.drexel.edu
or even if you want too call me at (215) 571 -4471

Much Appreciated, Matt O'Connell


From jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:10 EDT 1996
Article: 704 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!jeffe
From: jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu (george)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 16 Apr 1996 22:28:00 GMT
Organization: Mechanical Engineering
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4kl3i4$rv2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net> <317405C0.789@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: red.seas.upenn.edu
X-Fake-From: george@mech.seas.upenn.edu ( George Jefferson )
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48361 alt.energy.renewable:14887 bit.listserv.geodesic:4652 alt.architecture.alternative:6736 sci.environment:91424 alt.home.repair:22307 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6161 alt.solar.thermal:704

:> > So, led by this little child, let's all buy some glycerin, and try to invent
:> > a bubble wall, eg two pieces of single-layer polycarbonate plastic with butyl
:> > tape over a plastic 1x3" frame that can be filled between with bubbles at
:> > night that emerge from a PVC pipe with a few holes immersed in a soapy
:> > solution at the bottom, connected to a small aquarium air pump with a timer?
:> > This could be very useful in a passive solar house, like Beadwall. Simple
:> > movable insulation. During the day, the sun shines in on some thermal mass,
:> > and at night the glazing fills up with bubbles, keeping the heat in.

hmmm...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer
text.  I'm guessing its a reasonable conductor - it your "wall" is
thin (like a double paned window) you wouldn't gain anything filling
it with bubbles.  If you had a thicker wall you might gain something
assuming you could get the bubbles to stay put.

Of course if your aim is to impress the neighbors go for it :-)



-- 
george 	
george@mech.seas.upenn.edu



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:10 EDT 1996
Article: 705 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 16 Apr 1996 20:36:17 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net> <317405C0.789@netnet.net> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48366 alt.energy.renewable:14891 bit.listserv.geodesic:4655 alt.architecture.alternative:6738 sci.environment:91451 alt.home.repair:22315 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6164 alt.solar.thermal:705

george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:

>...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.

I wonder what heat transfer text you are using.

I guess it's like a very thin film of water, or anything else, eg plastic
film, as far as stopping convection, and good enough to stop some of the
IR radiation, ie the bubble wall would ideally be thick enough or opaque
enough slow down IR losses considerably.

>I'm guessing its a reasonable conductor -

The wall itself, yes, but the air inside the bubble is less conductive.

>it your "wall" is thin (like a double paned window) you wouldn't gain
>anything filling it with bubbles.

Can you define "anything"? :-)

>If you had a thicker wall you might gain something
>assuming you could get the bubbles to stay put.

That's the idea...

Nick



From albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at Thu Apr 18 11:17:11 EDT 1996
Article: 706 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.ACO.net!news.tuwien.ac.at!news
From: Albrecht Kadlec <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 17 Apr 1996 17:56:51 +0200
Organization: TU Wien
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
	<bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net>
	<317405C0.789@netnet.net> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at
X-Newsreader: September Gnus v0.69/Emacs 19.30
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48376 alt.energy.renewable:14896 bit.listserv.geodesic:4657 alt.architecture.alternative:6741 sci.environment:91537 alt.home.repair:22365 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6170 alt.solar.thermal:706


Hi Nick,


nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

> 
> george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> 
> >...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.
> 
> I wonder what heat transfer text you are using.
> 
> I guess it's like a very thin film of water, or anything else, eg plastic
> film, as far as stopping convection, and good enough to stop some of the
> IR radiation, ie the bubble wall would ideally be thick enough or opaque
> enough slow down IR losses considerably.

I always care about radiation losses last: 
conduction and convection losses come first.

So from my point of view, it could be a problem that the thing is NOT
SOLID: 
The trick in using bubble plastic is, that the walls are too thin for
heatloss via conduction.
And the air in the bubbles is trapped in such small bubbles, that no 
convection can take place in the bubbles.
The only losses left are radiation losses.

With soap bubbles, the water around the bubble can move:

So a water molecule could absorb energy, and while the bubbles are
going up, I'd expect warmer bubbles to go up faster. So on each
sloping or curved construction they tend to reach the outside pretty
soon, losing their heat energy via conduction to the PE film /
outside.

The bubbles would be great if they were stationary. (not moving)
I can't believe they're of great value, when they're moving up,
especially, if the air is exhausted to the outside.

I'd expect it to be equivalent to have a 50 Watt blower blow air
between the two PE sheets which is exhausted through various gaps to
the outside.

Maybe even worse, since the air would absorb some moisture thus also
absorbing heat from the surroundings. (evaporative cooling!!!!)
just imagine the HUGE water surface the bubbles create.

Evaporative cooling would be eliminated, if the PE sheets were leak
free and the water AND air would be cyclead over & over (sucking air
>from  the top to create the new bubbles).

So what is left is the cycling of the water & air from the inside
sheet to the outside sheet:
There would be a significant amount of water running down the inside
sheet (it's a curved/sloped construction, and gravity does it's job),
absorbing pretty much heat from the inside.
Some of this water is then contacting the outside sheet as it's
re-bubbled, losing its energy to the outside.

What we would need to gain any profit over the blower-alone approach
would be an air-tight construction of the two sheets and a liquid
that'd produce very "sturdy" bubbles, so that the air-movement rate
could be lowered.
As long as we're moving much air, we'll be seeing these
convection/conduction losses. 

just my thoughts....

cheers,
albrecht


From jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:11 EDT 1996
Article: 707 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!jeffe
From: jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu (george)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 17 Apr 1996 18:28:34 GMT
Organization: Mechanical Engineering
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4l3d8i$ood@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317405C0.789@netnet.net> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: red.seas.upenn.edu
X-Fake-From: george@mech.seas.upenn.edu ( George Jefferson )
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48382 alt.energy.renewable:14897 bit.listserv.geodesic:4659 alt.architecture.alternative:6743 sci.environment:91550 alt.home.repair:22368 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6172 alt.solar.thermal:707

:>it your "wall" is thin (like a double paned window) you wouldn't gain
:>anything filling it with bubbles.
:
:Can you define "anything"? :-)

my premise is that if the gap is thin enough then convection is not
a big issue.  So the effect of the bubbles is merely to ad an (admittedly
small) conduction path.


:
:>If you had a thicker wall you might gain something
:>assuming you could get the bubbles to stay put.

I was imagining that you fill the chamber with bubbles and they somehow
just stay there. Or are they continuously moving up and breaking
with the soapy water draining back to be recycled. (might be pretty
anyhow )



-- 
george 	
george@mech.seas.upenn.edu



From jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 18 11:17:11 EDT 1996
Article: 708 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!jeffe
From: jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu (george)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 17 Apr 1996 18:31:43 GMT
Organization: Mechanical Engineering
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4l3def$jbm@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: red.seas.upenn.edu
X-Fake-From: george@mech.seas.upenn.edu ( George Jefferson )
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48383 alt.energy.renewable:14898 bit.listserv.geodesic:4660 alt.architecture.alternative:6744 sci.environment:91551 alt.home.repair:22369 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6173 alt.solar.thermal:708

:What we would need to gain any profit over the blower-alone approach

I'm not getting the blower approach at all. You blow cold outside
air through the pane? You blow warm air from inside in and vent it to
the outside?  Sorry if this is old hat, but you know you posted
this to a bunch of groups where we aren't all up on the latest
enviro-tech..

-- 
george 	
george@mech.seas.upenn.edu



From skunksdelight@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 18 11:17:11 EDT 1996
Article: 709 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Francis Council <skunksdelight@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: 18 Apr 1996 00:12:54 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4l41e6$oac@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <316D7755.F7C2C91@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE> <316EB4A6.4B78@mail.ccil.net> <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.orlando-2.fl.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22ATT (Windows; U; 16bit)
To: redrok@pclink.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48392 alt.energy.renewable:14900 alt.solar.thermal:709

Can you tell me where you got the figure that a thermal system is 50% 
efficient?  My approach has been to eliminate some of the losses that are 
present in systems used today.  A typical arrangement involving 
photo-voltaic cells is to use the electrical power from the solar panels
to charge storage batteries and then when there is a power demand, take 
this stored chemical energy and convert it back to electricity. Not only 
is there is a loss of energy for these various changes of state but there 
would be some power loses  for the inverters.  As you can see, I am not 
proposing anything radical, I am only trying to eliminate some places 
where there are power loses.

                                       Frank




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 20 12:28:16 EDT 1996
Article: 710 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!gvls1!udel!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 18 Apr 1996 08:07:13 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 229
Message-ID: <4l5b9h$2b1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48406 alt.energy.renewable:14907 bit.listserv.geodesic:4668 alt.architecture.alternative:6758 sci.environment:91651 alt.home.repair:22397 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6187 alt.solar.thermal:710

Albrecht Kadlec  <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>> george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> >...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.
>> 
>> I guess it's like a very thin film of water, or anything else, eg plastic
>> film, as far as stopping convection, and good enough to stop some of the
>> IR radiation, ie the bubble wall would ideally be thick enough or opaque
>> enough to slow down IR losses considerably.
>
>I always care about radiation losses last: 
>conduction and convection losses come first.

Sounds like a good idea, until you get up to some temperature. Hmmm. A black
body plate with good insulation on the back and no glazing absorbing 300
Btu/hour/ft^2 of sun in still air on a (average Phila December) 36 F day
with a US R value of 2/3 should have a temp of 236 F. If it had only radiation
loss, ie 0.174x10^-8((T+460)^4-496^4) Btu/hr/ft^2, the temp T might be
234.7 F... It might actually get up to a temperature of 130 F or so.

>So from my point of view, it could be a problem that the thing is NOT SOLID: 

I guess you mean "advantage" when you say "problem"? :-)

>The trick in using bubble plastic is, that the walls are too thin for
>heatloss via conduction.

The thin bubble walls have little conductive thermal resistance for heat
flowing perpendicularly thru the wall, but I guess you are talking about
heat flowing parallel to the walls, lengthwise, say, somehow making it
>from  one side of a large wall full of bubbles to another, by flowing along
the thin bubble walls over a torturous random path from one side of the
large wall to the other by conduction. If the bubble walls were very thick,
like Swiss cheese, that could happen more easily. 

>And the air in the bubbles is trapped in such small bubbles, that no 
>convection can take place in the bubbles.

Not as much as if they were big bubbles. 

>The only losses left are radiation losses.

Steve Baer discovered that his bubbles had little IR thermal radiation
resistance, because the walls were so thin, he thinks. But he was trying
to solve a much harder problem, because he wanted the sun to shine through
the bubbles and heat up some water in a dish to 130 F, with no glazing (as
I recall.) He wanted his bubbles to have the greenhouse effect, selectively
transmitting shortwave solar radiation and blocking longwave IR re-radiation
in the other direction. A very nice thing, if possible to arrange. In our
case, during the day there would be no bubbles, just 2 layers of glazing,
and there would be no evaporation, and the temp inside the room might be
70 F, not 130 F. These bubbles would only be inside the glazing cavity at
night, trying to stop ALL heat transfer in the longwave IR and shortwave
visible spectra.
 
Bubble walls thinner than light wavelengths look transparent or "black."
As they get thicker, they acquire reflections and colors in the visible
spectrum. We want bubbles that are at least that thick. Reflective bubbles
in the visible spectrum may still be transparent to IR. I suppose these
reflections mainly come from Fresnel losses, ie those resulting from the
impedance mismatch or difference or between the indexes of refraction of
air and water. Each air-water interface might reflect ((n-1)/(n+1))^2 of
the incident normal radiation, assuming the index of air is 1 and the index
of water is n (what is n for water? Less than glass. It's about 1.5 for glass,
which makes the air-glass reflection coefficient rho about 4% at normal
incidence. Reflection coefficients go up for non-perpendicular incidence 
angles. For glass-air with a 60 degree incidence angle, rho becomes 9.3%.
There is a complicated formula on page 218 of Duffie and Beckman's book 
showing how to calculate this, starting with Snell's law.)  

The index and thus reflection coefficient depends on the wavelength, and rho
also depends on the wall thickness somehow, and whether the water has color
or not, eg some sort of dye, in the IR spectrum... Absorbing lots of energy
in the bubble wall may be almost as good as reflecting it, if there are lots
of small bubbles so the heat has to pass from one to the other in a long
chain from indoors to outdoors. Letting the heat pass right thru the bubble
walls is not good.

>With soap bubbles, the water around the bubble can move:

You mean the bubble wall itself... sure. Slowly, one hopes. 

>So a water molecule could absorb energy, and while the bubbles are
>going up, I'd expect warmer bubbles to go up faster.

I'd hope they wouldn't move much at all. Dr. Grosse's didn't move much. Some
of his bubbles lasted more than a year. His principles of bubble health and
long life are: 1. Dust is the enemy of bubbles. 2. Carbon dioxide poisons
bubbles (better bubbles are not blown by humans), and 3. Bubbles love cold.
They also like humidity. _The Unbelievable Bubble Book_ says (in the
"Permanent Bubbles" section)

    As it turns out, bubble death is preventable, or certainly postponable,
    a discovery most definitely made by Dr. Grosse nearly 30 years ago. Among
    Dr. Grosse's many other scientific awards and achievements exists the
    lesser-known fact that he was once the owner of the world's oldest bubble.

    Prof. Grosse's office was home to a huge collection of aging bubbles
    in various states of decay. Under Prof Grosse's meticulous care,
    bubbles did not burst. They flattened. But it was a process that often
    took many months, in some cases, years. They were created out of an
    esoteric bubble solution, and protected fromm deadly dust particles 
    by glass bell jars. 
 
    Prof. Grosse has described his peculiar collection in this way:
    "My first bubbles all died in infancy. They were blown with much
    the same kind of soap that Isaac Newton used in his classic bubble
    experiments. I turned to the literature and found that a much better
    soap was described more than a century ago by the blind Belgian physicist
    Joseph A. F. Plateau, who laid the foundations of our present knowledge
    of soap bubbles. Bubbles blown with Plateau's solution will last for
    several minutes in an ordinary room and for several hours with
    proper protection."

The book mentions that Plateau also created bubbles lasting more than a year.

>So on sloping or curved construction they tend to reach the outside pretty
>soon, losing their heat energy via conduction to the PE film / outside.

Steve said that as he recalled, this heat transfer by moving mass wasn't a
problem. Yes, if you pump air and especially liquid at a high rate thru an
empty glazing cavity, that would reduce the cavity resistance, but he said
that didn't seem to be a problem. 
 
>The bubbles would be great if they were stationary. (not moving)

That's the idea. Bubbles that are fairly stationary, with a long lifetime.
Humidity is one thing that makes bubbles burst. Dust is another. Neither
would be much of a problem inside a glazing cavity. But recall that Dr.
Grosse made bubble foams that he hung on his office walls, with no glazing...
Sprinkled with sequins, even.

>I can't believe they're of great value, when they're moving up,
>especially, if the air is exhausted to the outside.

I agree this should be a closed system, at least to avoid the buildup of dust.
Loss of water and heatloss by massflow out of the cavity would be minor, it
seems to me, even if the air were exhausted to the outside. 
 
>I'd expect it to be equivalent to have a 50 Watt blower blowing air
>between the two PE sheets which is exhausted through various gaps to
>the outside.

That doesn't sound like a great way to insulate a window :-)

>Maybe even worse, since the air would absorb some moisture thus also
>absorbing heat from the surroundings. (evaporative cooling!!!!)
>just imagine the HUGE water surface the bubbles create.

It sure is mind-boggling. But these would be clumped bubbles, not free
floating bubbles. A foam.

>Evaporative cooling would be eliminated, if the PE sheets were leak
>free and the water AND air would be cyclead over & over (sucking air
>from the top to create the new bubbles).

Good idea. I wonder how to pop the bubbles and separate the water and
air at the top, so the air can go thru an aquarium air pump. Something
like this? 
                        ---------------------------- 
		       |  ----------------------    |
       sand filter?--> | |             <--     |    | <--bubbles
                       | |                     |    |
                       | |   ----------        |    |
                       | |  |  -  air  | -->   |    |
                       |  --  | | pump  ----   |    |
		       |  ----  ----------  |  |    | <--water
                       |w|                | |  |wwww| <--water levle
		       | |                |  --     |
		       | |                 ----     |
		       | | water return->      |    |
                       |  ---------------------     |
                        ----------------------------

Or maybe the right kind of air pump wouldn't mind pumping a few bubbles,
reliability-wise, anymore than it would mind pumping air with 100% RH.

>So what is left is the cycling of the water & air from the inside
>sheet to the outside sheet:

Very slowly, one hopes.

>There would be a significant amount of water running down the inside
>sheet (it's a curved/sloped construction, and gravity does it's job),
>absorbing pretty much heat from the inside.

The flow rate seems like an experimental question, and a matter of
picking the right bubble solution... And as you say, geometry. The
flow rate would be different for a vertical window or a horizontal
bubble ceiling or the sloped underside of a bubble cathedral ceiling.
It would be nice if these were all minimal water flow rates. Larger
air flow rates are (1000 times) more tolerable. 

                   . 
                       .
                       .     .                               
                     . .             . <-- plywood or OSB under EPDM rubber
       <-- south    .  .                       .           
                   .20'. poly film bubble ceiling        .   ...........
                  .    .                           .         .         .
                 .     .                                     . chicken .
    refl. pond  .      .<-              38'     .          ->.   coop  .
     ............................................p ~~~~~~~~~ p................
                          thermal storage pond->  ppppppppppp
   
In the above case it might be nice to try to make the bubbles flow up
>from  the chicken coop along the underside of the sloped roof and over
the peak and down the south glazed wall at night. During the day, it
would be nice to have bubbles along the sloped ceiling, but not in the
south glazed wall. 

>Some of this water is then contacting the outside sheet as it's
>re-bubbled, losing its energy to the outside.
 
Little, we hope.

>What we would need to gain any profit over the blower-alone approach
>would be an air-tight construction of the two sheets and a liquid
>that'd produce very "sturdy" bubbles, so that the air-movement rate
>could be lowered.

Right.

>just my thoughts....

Thanks Albrecht. Time for less gedanken experiments?

Nick



From jfsawyer@freewave.com Sat Apr 20 12:28:17 EDT 1996
Article: 711 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!ns1.netone.com!8
From: jfsawyer@freewave.com (Jonathan sawyer)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 22:34:07 GMT
Organization: FreeWave Technologies
Lines: 31
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.61.45.8
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48419 alt.energy.renewable:14918 alt.solar.thermal:711

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> wrote:
>I am a sckeptic Francis;
>
>>Are you interested in disucssions where a photovoltaic panel is connected
>>to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the solar
>>energy?  The design is matter of using common sense.
>
>Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.
>
>1. The solar cell in a system is at best 15% efficient where a thermal
>system can be over 50% efficient. Probably more.
>2. The solar cell is much more expensive per square foot than the
>thermal system. Probably like 4 times more expensive.
>


What about PV's running a heat pump?   In my house I have a geothermal
heatpump heating a 3000 gal water tank which, in turn, heats the house
through slab heating.  COP of the heat pump is over 5.0 (50 deg to 90 deg).
Powering this with a 15% efficient photovoltaic panels will produce over
75% "heat" efficiency AND the colder it gets the more heat you produce!.

Of course you also get free electricity in the summer.

I am in the process of installing PV panels for such an operation.  I priced
the system cost of PVs and thermal panels and found the PV's to be only
50% higher on a square foot basis.


Jonathan Sawyer



From jimzad@wpi.edu Sat Apr 20 12:28:17 EDT 1996
Article: 712 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!wpi.WPI.EDU!jimzad
From: James Peter Aduskevich <jimzad@wpi.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Book?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:10:21 -0400
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.93.960417095946.4783A-100000@wpi.WPI.EDU>
Reply-To: James Peter Aduskevich <jimzad@wpi.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-270861080-829749846=:4783"
Content-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.93.960417100640.7090A@wpi.WPI.EDU>

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--0-270861080-829749846=:4783
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.93.960417100640.7090B@wpi.WPI.EDU>


I was wondering if there is a relatively comprehensive book on the basic
concepts of solar heating, thermal storage, etc.  I'm thinking about a
solar hot water/heating system for a house in a sunny area (New Mexico),
but I don't know enough on the subject to make any informed decisions.  If
I could find some source to at least point me in the right direction it
would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks
-jim


                                   jimzad@wpi.wpi.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Do not attempt this at home.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--0-270861080-829749846=:4783--


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 20 12:28:17 EDT 1996
Article: 713 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: 19 Apr 1996 07:25:36 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <4l7t7g$j2b@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com> <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48429 alt.energy.renewable:14926 alt.solar.thermal:713 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1216 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6208

Jonathan sawyer <jfsawyer@freewave.com> wrote:
>"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> wrote:
>>Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.
 
Economies of scale and past subsidies may influence prices more than common
sense at the moment. These prices depend on biased advertising and ignorant
consumers. Perhaps a lot more $4/watt PVs are being produced than rooftop
water heating solar panels now, and maybe that's a good thing. There are more
efficient and cheaper ways to heat water, eg some commonsensical $4/ft^2 bare
swimming pool tube mat heaters or a $2/ft^2 site built EPDM rubber collector
or low-priced Big Fins in a sunspace. 

>What about PV's running a heat pump?

Dumb idea. But smarter than running electric resistance heaters or
electric clothes dryers with PVs...

>In my house I have a geothermal heatpump heating a 3000 gal water tank which,
>in turn, heats the house through slab heating.

How about heating the house via a low-thermal-mass plastic-glazed sunspace
with a low-power fan or motorized damper in series with two thermostats
on a day with some sun?

>COP of the heat pump is over 5.0 (50 deg to 90 deg).

The COP of John Christoper's 1981 CSI HQ building in New Hampshire is about
50 ("2% fan power, 98% sun power.") Improve that with a sealed containers of
water in the "rock bed" and motorized dampers vs fans or blowers and it might
have a COP of 500:1 at a lower initial cost. A motorized damper costs about
$100 and uses 2 watts when moving, 0 watts when not moving (most of the time.)

>Powering this with a 15% efficient photovoltaic panels will produce over
>75% "heat" efficiency AND the colder it gets the more heat you produce!.

Do I have this right? 1 joule of sun falls on the PVs, 0.15 emerge from
the PVs, 0.15 go into the battery, 0.15 come out of the battery, 0.15 come
out of the inverter, 0.75 come out of the heat pump, 0.75 go into the water
tank, and 0.75 come out of the water tank, all with no additional input
of energy, at a system cost of $10/delivered watt of house heat? 

Now suppose we put the PVs in a sunspace and the 85% of the sun's heat that
is normally wasted with PVs ends up heating the sunspace air which flows
into the house and heats the house. This would raise the system efficiency
considerably, no? And you and your friends could sit in the sunspace and
play cards and admire your PVs on a winter day with some sun, and revel
in how independent and creative you are.

Now omit the PVs, and the cost drops dramatically, while the system efficiency
remains about the same, on a day with some sun.

Now add a little insulated room containing enough sealed containers of water
to store heat for a week without sun, with 10' of fin-tube pipe near the
ceiling of the little room and a water heater in a warm-water convection loop
on the floor above, and the system efficency rises again.

Add a little more floorspace to the room, and you have a sauna with free heat
and a place to dry clothes.

Now omit the 3000 gallon tank, plumbing, slab plumbing, pumps, heat pump,
etc, and the cost nosedives again. Before long, you may end up with a simple,
practical heating system, unless you are in love with PVs and heat pumps. 

>Of course you also get free electricity in the summer.

"Free," after that little matter of buying the PVs, batteries, inverters,
etc, etc..

>I am in the process of installing PV panels for such an operation.  I priced
>the system cost of PVs and thermal panels and found the PV's to be only
>50% higher on a square foot basis.

Water heating solar panels are no bargain at $30/ft^2. Polycarbonate plastic
"solar siding" or a roof or a sunspace that lasts 20 years at $1/ft^2 is.
Polyethylene film that costs 4 cents/ft^2 and lasts 3 years before it needs
recycling, while producing $3/ft^2 worth of heat is definitely a bargain.

PVs are not a bargain, altho putting them in a sunspace or adding an
extra layer of glazing and trickling some water over their faces before
the water goes back to your 3000 gallon tank might be a good idea.

Stanford Ovshinsky's amorphous PVs produce 50 peak Watt/m^2 at 20 C and
45 pW/m^2 at 60 C, at a cost of about $4/pW.

Nick



From redrok@pclink.com Sat Apr 20 12:28:18 EDT 1996
Article: 714 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!usenet
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: 19 Apr 1996 21:13:07 GMT
Organization: Red Rock Energy
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <4l8vl4$4r5@tracy.protocom.com>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com> <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pclink.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="-------------------------------38612938725013"
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: jfsawyer@freewave.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48442 alt.energy.renewable:14934 alt.solar.thermal:714

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

---------------------------------38612938725013
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



-- 
CUL8ER
Duane Johnson
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN 55110-3364
USA
redrok@pclink.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
(612)426-4766 home (615)635-5065 day


---------------------------------38612938725013
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain

I am still a skeptic;
>>I am a skeptic Francis;
>>
>>>Are you interested in discussions where a photovoltaic panel is connected
>>>to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the solar
>>>energy?  The design is matter of using common sense.
>>
>>Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.
>>
>>1. The solar cell in a system is at best 15% efficient where a thermal
>>system can be over 50% efficient. Probably more.
>>2. The solar cell is much more expensive per square foot than the
>>thermal system. Probably like 4 times more expensive.

>What about PV's running a heat pump?   In my house I have a geothermal
>heatpump heating a 3000 gal water tank which, in turn, heats the house
>through slab heating.  COP of the heat pump is over 5.0 (50 deg to 90 deg).
>Powering this with a 15% efficient photovoltaic panels will produce over
>75% "heat" efficiency

I am aware of COP (Coefficient Of Performance) as used in heat pumps.
Solar systems can supply the heat energy input to the evaporator side
of these systems. I think NASA had a demonstration setup for one of
these systems.

>AND the colder it gets the more heat you produce!.

This is misleading. I think that you mean that as the input water
to be heated is colder the COP improves.

What you didn't say (to be fair) is that a solar collector can supply
the energy for the evaporator. Usually this temperature is higher than
can be obtained from geothermal sources. This also increases the COP.
I think the NASA demo had a COP of around 20 or so.

>Of course you also get free electricity in the summer.

Well nothing is free. The real cost of the electricity is the
amortized cost over the life of the panels and batteries. If you
already have an electric power utility near this amortized cost 
will never pay for itself .

In Minnesota there is a law that requires "Solar Equipment" have a 
today's dollar payback period of less than 40 years. There was a famous
case where the manufacturer of those small parabolic tracking trough
waters were prevented from being sold as solar equipment in Minnesota.
The cost was about $3000 and produced $50 worth of hot water per year.
At this rate there will never be a payback.

>I am in the process of installing PV panels for such an operation.

Do you have a power utility connected to your house?

>I priced the system cost of PVs and thermal panels and found the
>PV's to be only 50% higher on a square foot basis.

Now for the real comparison. What is the cost of the solar thermal
collector compared to the PVs and the geothermal system combined.
What are the costs of the heatpump service? 
This is the true comparison.

This seems to violate the KISS principal!
Keep it simple. 


---------------------------------38612938725013--


From klc@infogo.com Sun Apr 21 12:31:48 EDT 1996
Article: 715 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ns3.iamerica.net!usenet
From: klc@infogo.com (Ken)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: best solar collector plate material and bonding methods
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:05:07 GMT
Organization: S1 EnerCorp
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <4lc52a$oap@ns3.iamerica.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: line12.infogo.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am contructing a solar collector and am trying to decide on the best type
of material for the absorber plate: copper or aluminum? Also, what is the
best method of bonding the copper liquid lines to the aborber plate for best
transmission of energy?



From thermomax@softaid.net Sun Apr 21 12:31:49 EDT 1996
Article: 716 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news1.digital.com!decwrl!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!sis2.softaid.net!usenet
From: thermomax@softaid.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar shingles?
Date: 18 Apr 1996 15:23:01 GMT
Organization: Thermomax, Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector, Tel: USA (410) 997-0778
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4l5mom$cg7@sis2.softaid.net>
References: <st95w2rt-1504961648580001@calhoun2-028.resnet.drexel.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: thermomax.softaid.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   st95w2rt@post.drexel.edu writes:
>  i was wondering if anyone can help me. For my freshman design project my
>  friend and I are designing a solar panel to be disguised like a set of
>  shingles. Does anyone know anyone in the industry doing research along
>  these lines, especially in the philadelphia area? Also where could we get
>  spec sheets on current solar panels, arrays, etc.
>  
>  please post back or email me at st95a258@post.drexel.edu
>  or even if you want too call me at (215) 571 -4471
>  
>  Much Appreciated, Matt O'Connell
>  
>>>>
United Solar Systems manufactures Solar Shingels. You may contact them at :
(313) 362-4170

******************************************************************************
Thermomax Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector
"Worldwide Leadership in Solar Heating System"
Home Page: http://www.thermomax.com/thermomax/
e-mail: info@thermomax.com
Phone: USA (410) 997-0778
Fax: USA (410) 997-0779
USA Offices:
6193 Wooded Run Drive
Columbia, MD 21044
USA
******************************************************************************





From gcp@taynet.co.uk Sun Apr 21 12:31:49 EDT 1996
Article: 717 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!news.taynet.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:48:24 GMT
Organization: Taynet
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4lde67$lfl@homer.taynet.co.uk>
References: <316D7755.F7C2C91@RZ.TU-Ilmenau.DE> <316EB4A6.4B78@mail.ccil.net> <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem79.taynet.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48474 alt.energy.renewable:14962 alt.solar.thermal:717

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> wrote:

>I am a sckeptic Francis;

>>Are you interested in disucssions where a photovoltaic panel is connected 
>>to a hot water heater and the hot water heater is used to store the solar 
>>energy?  The design is matter of using common sense.

>Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.

>1. The solar cell in a system is at best 15% efficient where a thermal
>system can be over 50% efficient. Probably more.
>2. The solar cell is much more expensive per square foot than the
>thermal system. Probably like 4 times more expensive.

This idea is actually being seriously considered.  
The National Institute of Standards and Technology in Maryland has
patented a houshold solar-powered water heater - it is a photovoltaic
and resistive element(s) system.
Quote:  'At the Department of Energy's long-term goal of $0.50 per
peak watt, the NIST system would cost less than half of today's cost
for a solar thermal unit'
It is also worth considering that if photovoltaics are designed into
roof tiles or windows (there is now a process that makes this
possible, and although the efficiency is lower it may be cheaper) then
it is possible to write off part of the cost.  Also, though they may
not appear to compete with utility prices, if you eliminate the
middleman and the transmission costs they are near competative.
At present an idea worth considering might be to connect a solar
thermal unit to a well insulated low-grade thermal store, and heat
pump out of that with a photovoltaic or wind generator?
No substitute for designing a house to make best use of the available
energy in the first place.




From pommie@concentric.net Sat Apr 27 11:43:39 EDT 1996
Article: 718 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news
From: pommie@concentric.net (David)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Search for solar-energy-storing
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:41:27 GMT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <4lfgt1$h88@tribune.concentric.net>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com> <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com> <4l7t7g$j2b@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc091033.concentric.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48486 alt.energy.renewable:14975 alt.solar.thermal:718 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1223 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6254

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Jonathan sawyer <jfsawyer@freewave.com> wrote:
>>"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> wrote:
>>>Well if common sense is used it is neither cost effective nor efficient.
> 
>Economies of scale and past subsidies may influence prices more than common
>sense at the moment. These prices depend on biased advertising and ignorant
>consumers. Perhaps a lot more $4/watt PVs are being produced than rooftop
>water heating solar panels now, and maybe that's a good thing. There are more
>efficient and cheaper ways to heat water, eg some commonsensical $4/ft^2 bare
>swimming pool tube mat heaters or a $2/ft^2 site built EPDM rubber collector
>or low-priced Big Fins in a sunspace. 

>>What about PV's running a heat pump?

>Dumb idea. But smarter than running electric resistance heaters or
>electric clothes dryers with PVs...

>>In my house I have a geothermal heatpump heating a 3000 gal water tank which,
>>in turn, heats the house through slab heating.

>How about heating the house via a low-thermal-mass plastic-glazed sunspace
>with a low-power fan or motorized damper in series with two thermostats
>on a day with some sun?

>>COP of the heat pump is over 5.0 (50 deg to 90 deg).

>The COP of John Christoper's 1981 CSI HQ building in New Hampshire is about
>50 ("2% fan power, 98% sun power.") Improve that with a sealed containers of
>water in the "rock bed" and motorized dampers vs fans or blowers and it might
>have a COP of 500:1 at a lower initial cost. A motorized damper costs about
>$100 and uses 2 watts when moving, 0 watts when not moving (most of the time.)

>>Powering this with a 15% efficient photovoltaic panels will produce over
>>75% "heat" efficiency AND the colder it gets the more heat you produce!.

>Do I have this right? 1 joule of sun falls on the PVs, 0.15 emerge from
>the PVs, 0.15 go into the battery, 0.15 come out of the battery, 0.15 come
>out of the inverter, 0.75 come out of the heat pump, 0.75 go into the water
>tank, and 0.75 come out of the water tank, all with no additional input
>of energy, at a system cost of $10/delivered watt of house heat? 

>Now suppose we put the PVs in a sunspace and the 85% of the sun's heat that
>is normally wasted with PVs ends up heating the sunspace air which flows
>into the house and heats the house. This would raise the system efficiency
>considerably, no? And you and your friends could sit in the sunspace and
>play cards and admire your PVs on a winter day with some sun, and revel
>in how independent and creative you are.

>Now omit the PVs, and the cost drops dramatically, while the system efficiency
>remains about the same, on a day with some sun.

>Now add a little insulated room containing enough sealed containers of water
>to store heat for a week without sun, with 10' of fin-tube pipe near the
>ceiling of the little room and a water heater in a warm-water convection loop
>on the floor above, and the system efficency rises again.

>Add a little more floorspace to the room, and you have a sauna with free heat
>and a place to dry clothes.

>Now omit the 3000 gallon tank, plumbing, slab plumbing, pumps, heat pump,
>etc, and the cost nosedives again. Before long, you may end up with a simple,
>practical heating system, unless you are in love with PVs and heat pumps. 

>>Of course you also get free electricity in the summer.

>"Free," after that little matter of buying the PVs, batteries, inverters,
>etc, etc..

>>I am in the process of installing PV panels for such an operation.  I priced
>>the system cost of PVs and thermal panels and found the PV's to be only
>>50% higher on a square foot basis.

>Water heating solar panels are no bargain at $30/ft^2. Polycarbonate plastic
>"solar siding" or a roof or a sunspace that lasts 20 years at $1/ft^2 is.
>Polyethylene film that costs 4 cents/ft^2 and lasts 3 years before it needs
>recycling, while producing $3/ft^2 worth of heat is definitely a bargain.

>PVs are not a bargain, altho putting them in a sunspace or adding an
>extra layer of glazing and trickling some water over their faces before
>the water goes back to your 3000 gallon tank might be a good idea.

>Stanford Ovshinsky's amorphous PVs produce 50 peak Watt/m^2 at 20 C and
>45 pW/m^2 at 60 C, at a cost of about $4/pW.

>Nick





From davisd@ucs.orst.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:39 EDT 1996
Article: 719 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.ysu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!miner.usbm.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.pdx.oneworld.com!news.orst.edu!news
From: David Davis <davisd@ucs.orst.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:15:28 -0700
Organization: Security Services / Oregon State University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <317BCCC0.4539@ucs.orst.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net> <317405C0.789@netnet.net> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sec-020.security.orst.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48494 alt.energy.renewable:14985 bit.listserv.geodesic:4725 alt.architecture.alternative:6803 sci.environment:92157 alt.home.repair:22727 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6265 alt.solar.thermal:719

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> 
> >...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.
> 
> I wonder what heat transfer text you are using.
> 
> I guess it's like a very thin film of water, or anything else, eg plastic
> film, as far as stopping convection, and good enough to stop some of the
> IR radiation, ie the bubble wall would ideally be thick enough or opaque
> enough slow down IR losses considerably.
> 
> >I'm guessing its a reasonable conductor -
> 
> The wall itself, yes, but the air inside the bubble is less conductive.
> 
> >it your "wall" is thin (like a double paned window) you wouldn't gain
> >anything filling it with bubbles.
> 
> Can you define "anything"? :-)
> 
> >If you had a thicker wall you might gain something
> >assuming you could get the bubbles to stay put.
> 
> That's the idea...
> 
> Nick

I have to agree with George. Logic tells me you have provided numerous 
small wet paths for energy transfer via the bubble walls. Before the 
bubbles transfer relied on convection in the air in the space.

David davis
davisd@ucs.orst.edu


From joe.o@ukonline.co.uk Sat Apr 27 11:43:39 EDT 1996
Article: 720 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!peer.news.xara.net!xara.net!SoNet!rmplc!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!morse.ukonline.co.uk!usenet
From: joe.o@ukonline.co.uk
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:38:32 GMT
Organization: UK Online
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4lgn7d$lns@morse.ukonline.co.uk>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <bhoglund-1304961005320001@max7-147.hiwaay.net> <317405C0.789@netnet.net> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lon1-14.ukonline.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48506 alt.energy.renewable:14992 bit.listserv.geodesic:4726 alt.architecture.alternative:6806 sci.environment:92177 alt.home.repair:22731 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6270 alt.solar.thermal:720

Albrecht Kadlec <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:


>Hi Nick,


>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>> 
>> george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> >...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.
>> 
>
Perhaps we are being just a little too restricted in our conceps here?
What if we developed some' lateral thinkng' It just so happens that I
have a (proven) system to which I had never considered 'air bubble
technology' Why ? it never occured to me, until now. Please have a
look at my site on <http://www.nsl.co.uk/nightsky> and let me know how
you see 'air bubble technology' fitting in with 'DIY Basement
Renovations'? or 'Green Roof Technology' for that matter?

Kind regards,

Joe O'Donoghue.



From rgty_mkt@waikato.ac.nz Sat Apr 27 11:43:40 EDT 1996
Article: 721 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.starnet.net!waikato!mktpb.rgty.waikato.ac.nz!user
From: m.tracey@waikato.ac.nz (Murray Tracey)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: best solar collector plate material and bonding methods
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 12:28:57 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato
Lines: 20
Sender: rgty_mkt@waikato.ac.nz
Message-ID: <m.tracey-2304961228570001@mktpb.rgty.waikato.ac.nz>
References: <4lc52a$oap@ns3.iamerica.net>
Reply-To: rgty_mkt@waikato.ac.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: mktpb.rgty.waikato.ac.nz
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 7.2

In article <4lc52a$oap@ns3.iamerica.net>, klc@infogo.com (Ken) wrote:

> I am contructing a solar collector and am trying to decide on the best type
> of material for the absorber plate: copper or aluminum? Also, what is the
> best method of bonding the copper liquid lines to the aborber plate for best
> transmission of energy?

I don't know which is best, but I do know that you always increase the
potential problems when you bond dissimilar metals together.  Some
manufacurers do this, (bond dissimilar metals) but if you pipes are copper
it probably would be less problem to use copper collector.

Just my .02
-Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Murray Tracey                         Phone:  64-7-838 4243
Information & Technology Services     Fax:    64-7-838 4668
Waikato University, Hamilton, N.Z.    email:  m.tracey@waikato.ac.nz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From will1000@ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 27 11:43:40 EDT 1996
Article: 722 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: will1000@ix.netcom.com(Will Stewart )
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar-powered geothermal heat pump
Date: 22 Apr 1996 10:37:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4lfnho$3kc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com> <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-dc10-22.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Apr 22  5:37:44 AM CDT 1996
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48512 alt.energy.renewable:14996 alt.solar.thermal:722

In <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com> jfsawyer@freewave.com (Jonathan sawyer)
writes: 
>
>What about PV's running a heat pump?   In my house I have a geothermal
>heatpump heating a 3000 gal water tank which, in turn, heats the house
>through slab heating.  COP of the heat pump is over 5.0 (50 deg to 90
>deg).

Are you in an area that generally demands A/C?  I've considered the
slab approach, though have shied away due to the condensation problem.

How much do you spend to heat with the geothermal heat pump?  Would you
recommend it to others?  Any lessons learned?

>Powering this with a 15% efficient photovoltaic panels will produce
>over 75% "heat" efficiency AND the colder it gets the more heat you
>produce!.

How did you size your panels; can we assume you are on the grid?

>Of course you also get free electricity in the summer.

And other times of the year too!

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From vic@inventnet.com Sat Apr 27 11:43:40 EDT 1996
Article: 723 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.ossi.com!netserv.com!pagesat.net!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet
From: vic@inventnet.com (Victor Lavrov)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: InventNET
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 03:09:11 GMT
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <317c49cc.9158936@news.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max1-oc-ca-34.earthlink.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

If you have an idea or an invention 
visit InventNET to learn what to do next.
See also some interesting inventions.
Free classified ads.

Victor
InventNET - The Inventors Network
http://www.inventnet.com


From 101367.1416@CompuServe.COM Sat Apr 27 11:43:41 EDT 1996
Article: 724 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news
From: Gergi Kocabas <101367.1416@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: statistical data
Date: 22 Apr 1996 11:04:32 GMT
Organization: ETA-Plus
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4lfp40$8mi$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1224 alt.solar.thermal:724

Hi,
we are interested in getting informations about the use of solar 
energy systems in Thailand, Columbia and Iran. Does anybody know 
some statistical data (how many plants are already installed what 
is the average heating water consumption? etc.), which solar 
systems are used, meteorological datas of the regions (e.g. test 
reference year), energy prices and prices for solar systems.
Further on the energy supply structure is also very important for 
us (how many remote villages have not a public grid connection, 
who is the energy supplyer - is it private or public? etc.
Thanks for your help.
ETA-Plus

-- 
Gergi Kocabas


From austind@norwich.net Sat Apr 27 11:43:41 EDT 1996
Article: 725 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!ns.norwich.net!news
From: Dave Austin <austind@norwich.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar-powered geothermal heat pump
Date: 23 Apr 1996 16:15:14 GMT
Organization: Great Brook Enterprises
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4livmi$6vr@ns.norwich.net>
References: <4knnl1$de4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ko9vq$ijk@irk.zetnet.co.uk> <4krpb7$20l@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4ku5hd$a30@tracy.protocom.com> <4l6svo$an@ns1.netone.com> <4lfnho$3kc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm65.norwich.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2 (Windows; U; 16bit)
To: will1000@ix.netcom.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48527 alt.energy.renewable:14999 alt.solar.thermal:725

Hi Will:
   I saw your posting about a solar assisted heat pump system you have in 
your home. I thought I was the only one who did this. We have had one in 
our house since 1982. The solar tank in ours is 1500 gallons with 620 sq. 
ft. of solaroll collector. The tank is the source for the heat pump. We 
use ground loops for backup. We also have radiant floors. I had thought 
about PVs to run it but I figure it would take about 30 to 40 panels to 
run it, about a $25,000 investment , so we just use the power line. But I 
am reconsidering now that our electric rate is $.15 per kwh. Even so we 
heat a 2500 sf old farm house in upstate NY 7300 deg days for about $600 
per year. Our system also has AC for summer.
I have a business installing these systems. You might want to check out 
my web page: 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/davenrgman/savngnrg.htm

Dave Austin  



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:42 EDT 1996
Article: 726 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 24 Apr 1996 20:00:07 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4lmfa7$1u9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317BCCC0.4539@ucs.orst.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48571 alt.energy.renewable:15016 bit.listserv.geodesic:4766 alt.architecture.alternative:6820 sci.environment:92399 alt.home.repair:22850 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6307 alt.solar.thermal:726

David Davis  <davisd@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:

>I have to agree with George. Logic tells me you have provided numerous 
>small wet paths for energy transfer via the bubble walls. Before the 
>bubbles transfer relied on convection in the air in the space.

A lot of little convection paths in series will have more thermal resistance
than one big one...

Nick



From andreas.haffner@matforsk.nlh.no Sat Apr 27 11:43:42 EDT 1996
Article: 727 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.uio.no!nntp.uib.no!nntp-bergen.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!usenet
From: Andreas Haffner <andreas.haffner@matforsk.nlh.no>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:51:33 -0700
Organization: MATFORSK
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <317FBBA5.5FA0@matforsk.nlh.no>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317BCCC0.4539@ucs.orst.edu> <4lmfa7$1u9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mf091.nlh.no
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
CC: andreas.haffner@matforsk.nlh.no
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48583 alt.energy.renewable:15019 bit.listserv.geodesic:4772 alt.architecture.alternative:6825 sci.environment:92417 alt.home.repair:22880 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6314 alt.solar.thermal:727

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> David Davis  <davisd@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
> 
> >I have to agree with George. Logic tells me you have provided numerous
> >small wet paths for energy transfer via the bubble walls. Before the
> >bubbles transfer relied on convection in the air in the space.
> 
> A lot of little convection paths in series will have more thermal resistance
> than one big one...
> 
> Nick

Misunderstanding here, I think:

Before you had one large convection path

With the bubbles you have many small convection pathes and additionally many
*conduction* pathes.

Andreas
____________________________________________
* This is my own opinion! ........ I think *
MATFORSK - Norwegian Food Research Institute
Phone +47 64970168          Fax +47 64970333


From matthews@wfu.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:42 EDT 1996
Article: 728 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.wfu.edu!not-for-mail
From: matthews@wfu.edu (Rick Matthews)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Followup-To: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Date: 25 Apr 1996 12:05:16 GMT
Organization: Wake Forest University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4lnpps$dpl@eis.wfunet.wfu.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317BCCC0.4539@ucs.orst.edu> <4lmfa7$1u9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317FBBA5.5FA0@matforsk.nlh.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: darth.phy.wfu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48586 alt.energy.renewable:15020 bit.listserv.geodesic:4774 alt.architecture.alternative:6826 sci.environment:92421 alt.home.repair:22882 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6315 alt.solar.thermal:728

Andreas Haffner (andreas.haffner@matforsk.nlh.no) wrote:
: 
: Misunderstanding here, I think:
: 
: Before you had one large convection path
: 
: With the bubbles you have many small convection pathes and additionally many
: *conduction* pathes.

Forgive me if I am off-target, since I missed the initial post.  There
seems to be debate over whether filling walls with some sort of bubble
structure will improve insulation.  As long as the bubble surfaces are
thin, the answer is clearly yes.  Many small convection paths within
bubbles would have much lower net heat transport than one big cavity.
The smaller the bubbles, the more effective the material.

After all, that is what styrofoam is.

Consider fiberglass.  Fiberglass itself is a relatively poor
insulator.  Fiberglass insulation (such as the Pink Panther stuff), on
the other hand, is mostly air.  The principal purpose of the
fiberglass in fiberglass insulation is to disrupt convection currents.
It breaks the big cavity up into lots of tiny ones.  Reduction in
radiative transport because of the many layers is also important.

-- 
Rick Matthews                             matthews@wfu.edu       
Department of Physics                     http://www.wfu.edu/%7Ematthews 
Wake Forest University                    910-759-5340   (Voice)
Winston-Salem, NC 27109-7507              910-759-6142   (FAX)
USA


From ab8r@getnet.com Sat Apr 27 11:43:43 EDT 1996
Article: 729 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!marge.eaglequest.com!oxy.rust.net!news1.agis.net!agis!news.getnet.com!usenet
From: Brad Lindsay <ab8r@getnet.com>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:18:24 -0700
Organization: GetNet, International
Lines: 239
Message-ID: <317D1EF0.436D@getnet.com>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l16tg$n7s@netnews.upenn.edu>
	 <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4l5b9h$2b1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: phx-ip1-90.getnet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48587 alt.energy.renewable:15021 bit.listserv.geodesic:4775 alt.architecture.alternative:6827 sci.environment:92422 alt.home.repair:22883 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6316 alt.solar.thermal:729

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Albrecht Kadlec  <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> >nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> >> george <jeffe@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >...the thermal conductivity of soap film isn't in my heat transfer text.
> >>
> >> I guess it's like a very thin film of water, or anything else, eg plastic
> >> film, as far as stopping convection, and good enough to stop some of the
> >> IR radiation, ie the bubble wall would ideally be thick enough or opaque
> >> enough to slow down IR losses considerably.
> >
> >I always care about radiation losses last:
> >conduction and convection losses come first.
> 
> Sounds like a good idea, until you get up to some temperature. Hmmm. A black
> body plate with good insulation on the back and no glazing absorbing 300
> Btu/hour/ft^2 of sun in still air on a (average Phila December) 36 F day
> with a US R value of 2/3 should have a temp of 236 F. If it had only radiation
> loss, ie 0.174x10^-8((T+460)^4-496^4) Btu/hr/ft^2, the temp T might be
> 234.7 F... It might actually get up to a temperature of 130 F or so.
> 
> >So from my point of view, it could be a problem that the thing is NOT SOLID:
> 
> I guess you mean "advantage" when you say "problem"? :-)
> 
> >The trick in using bubble plastic is, that the walls are too thin for
> >heatloss via conduction.
> 
> The thin bubble walls have little conductive thermal resistance for heat
> flowing perpendicularly thru the wall, but I guess you are talking about
> heat flowing parallel to the walls, lengthwise, say, somehow making it
> from one side of a large wall full of bubbles to another, by flowing along
> the thin bubble walls over a torturous random path from one side of the
> large wall to the other by conduction. If the bubble walls were very thick,
> like Swiss cheese, that could happen more easily.
> 
> >And the air in the bubbles is trapped in such small bubbles, that no
> >convection can take place in the bubbles.
> 
> Not as much as if they were big bubbles.
> 
> >The only losses left are radiation losses.
> 
> Steve Baer discovered that his bubbles had little IR thermal radiation
> resistance, because the walls were so thin, he thinks. But he was trying
> to solve a much harder problem, because he wanted the sun to shine through
> the bubbles and heat up some water in a dish to 130 F, with no glazing (as
> I recall.) He wanted his bubbles to have the greenhouse effect, selectively
> transmitting shortwave solar radiation and blocking longwave IR re-radiation
> in the other direction. A very nice thing, if possible to arrange. In our
> case, during the day there would be no bubbles, just 2 layers of glazing,
> and there would be no evaporation, and the temp inside the room might be
> 70 F, not 130 F. These bubbles would only be inside the glazing cavity at
> night, trying to stop ALL heat transfer in the longwave IR and shortwave
> visible spectra.
> 
> Bubble walls thinner than light wavelengths look transparent or "black."
> As they get thicker, they acquire reflections and colors in the visible
> spectrum. We want bubbles that are at least that thick. Reflective bubbles
> in the visible spectrum may still be transparent to IR. I suppose these
> reflections mainly come from Fresnel losses, ie those resulting from the
> impedance mismatch or difference or between the indexes of refraction of
> air and water. Each air-water interface might reflect ((n-1)/(n+1))^2 of
> the incident normal radiation, assuming the index of air is 1 and the index
> of water is n (what is n for water? Less than glass. It's about 1.5 for glass,
> which makes the air-glass reflection coefficient rho about 4% at normal
> incidence. Reflection coefficients go up for non-perpendicular incidence
> angles. For glass-air with a 60 degree incidence angle, rho becomes 9.3%.
> There is a complicated formula on page 218 of Duffie and Beckman's book
> showing how to calculate this, starting with Snell's law.)
> 
> The index and thus reflection coefficient depends on the wavelength, and rho
> also depends on the wall thickness somehow, and whether the water has color
> or not, eg some sort of dye, in the IR spectrum... Absorbing lots of energy
> in the bubble wall may be almost as good as reflecting it, if there are lots
> of small bubbles so the heat has to pass from one to the other in a long
> chain from indoors to outdoors. Letting the heat pass right thru the bubble
> walls is not good.
> 
> >With soap bubbles, the water around the bubble can move:
> 
> You mean the bubble wall itself... sure. Slowly, one hopes.
> 
> >So a water molecule could absorb energy, and while the bubbles are
> >going up, I'd expect warmer bubbles to go up faster.
> 
> I'd hope they wouldn't move much at all. Dr. Grosse's didn't move much. Some
> of his bubbles lasted more than a year. His principles of bubble health and
> long life are: 1. Dust is the enemy of bubbles. 2. Carbon dioxide poisons
> bubbles (better bubbles are not blown by humans), and 3. Bubbles love cold.
> They also like humidity. _The Unbelievable Bubble Book_ says (in the
> "Permanent Bubbles" section)
> 
>     As it turns out, bubble death is preventable, or certainly postponable,
>     a discovery most definitely made by Dr. Grosse nearly 30 years ago. Among
>     Dr. Grosse's many other scientific awards and achievements exists the
>     lesser-known fact that he was once the owner of the world's oldest bubble.
> 
>     Prof. Grosse's office was home to a huge collection of aging bubbles
>     in various states of decay. Under Prof Grosse's meticulous care,
>     bubbles did not burst. They flattened. But it was a process that often
>     took many months, in some cases, years. They were created out of an
>     esoteric bubble solution, and protected fromm deadly dust particles
>     by glass bell jars.
> 
>     Prof. Grosse has described his peculiar collection in this way:
>     "My first bubbles all died in infancy. They were blown with much
>     the same kind of soap that Isaac Newton used in his classic bubble
>     experiments. I turned to the literature and found that a much better
>     soap was described more than a century ago by the blind Belgian physicist
>     Joseph A. F. Plateau, who laid the foundations of our present knowledge
>     of soap bubbles. Bubbles blown with Plateau's solution will last for
>     several minutes in an ordinary room and for several hours with
>     proper protection."
> 
> The book mentions that Plateau also created bubbles lasting more than a year.
> 
> >So on sloping or curved construction they tend to reach the outside pretty
> >soon, losing their heat energy via conduction to the PE film / outside.
> 
> Steve said that as he recalled, this heat transfer by moving mass wasn't a
> problem. Yes, if you pump air and especially liquid at a high rate thru an
> empty glazing cavity, that would reduce the cavity resistance, but he said
> that didn't seem to be a problem.
> 
> >The bubbles would be great if they were stationary. (not moving)
> 
> That's the idea. Bubbles that are fairly stationary, with a long lifetime.
> Humidity is one thing that makes bubbles burst. Dust is another. Neither
> would be much of a problem inside a glazing cavity. But recall that Dr.
> Grosse made bubble foams that he hung on his office walls, with no glazing...
> Sprinkled with sequins, even.
> 
> >I can't believe they're of great value, when they're moving up,
> >especially, if the air is exhausted to the outside.
> 
> I agree this should be a closed system, at least to avoid the buildup of dust.
> Loss of water and heatloss by massflow out of the cavity would be minor, it
> seems to me, even if the air were exhausted to the outside.
> 
> >I'd expect it to be equivalent to have a 50 Watt blower blowing air
> >between the two PE sheets which is exhausted through various gaps to
> >the outside.
> 
> That doesn't sound like a great way to insulate a window :-)
> 
> >Maybe even worse, since the air would absorb some moisture thus also
> >absorbing heat from the surroundings. (evaporative cooling!!!!)
> >just imagine the HUGE water surface the bubbles create.
> 
> It sure is mind-boggling. But these would be clumped bubbles, not free
> floating bubbles. A foam.
> 
> >Evaporative cooling would be eliminated, if the PE sheets were leak
> >free and the water AND air would be cyclead over & over (sucking air
> >from the top to create the new bubbles).
> 
> Good idea. I wonder how to pop the bubbles and separate the water and
> air at the top, so the air can go thru an aquarium air pump. Something
> like this?
>                         ----------------------------
>                        |  ----------------------    |
>        sand filter?--> | |             <--     |    | <--bubbles
>                        | |                     |    |
>                        | |   ----------        |    |
>                        | |  |  -  air  | -->   |    |
>                        |  --  | | pump  ----   |    |
>                        |  ----  ----------  |  |    | <--water
>                        |w|                | |  |wwww| <--water levle
>                        | |                |  --     |
>                        | |                 ----     |
>                        | | water return->      |    |
>                        |  ---------------------     |
>                         ----------------------------
> 
> Or maybe the right kind of air pump wouldn't mind pumping a few bubbles,
> reliability-wise, anymore than it would mind pumping air with 100% RH.
> 
> >So what is left is the cycling of the water & air from the inside
> >sheet to the outside sheet:
> 
> Very slowly, one hopes.
> 
> >There would be a significant amount of water running down the inside
> >sheet (it's a curved/sloped construction, and gravity does it's job),
> >absorbing pretty much heat from the inside.
> 
> The flow rate seems like an experimental question, and a matter of
> picking the right bubble solution... And as you say, geometry. The
> flow rate would be different for a vertical window or a horizontal
> bubble ceiling or the sloped underside of a bubble cathedral ceiling.
> It would be nice if these were all minimal water flow rates. Larger
> air flow rates are (1000 times) more tolerable.
> 
>                    .
>                        .
>                        .     .
>                      . .             . <-- plywood or OSB under EPDM rubber
>        <-- south    .  .                       .
>                    .20'. poly film bubble ceiling        .   ...........
>                   .    .                           .         .         .
>                  .     .                                     . chicken .
>     refl. pond  .      .<-              38'     .          ->.   coop  .
>      ............................................p ~~~~~~~~~ p................
>                           thermal storage pond->  ppppppppppp
> 
> In the above case it might be nice to try to make the bubbles flow up
> from the chicken coop along the underside of the sloped roof and over
> the peak and down the south glazed wall at night. During the day, it
> would be nice to have bubbles along the sloped ceiling, but not in the
> south glazed wall.
> 
> >Some of this water is then contacting the outside sheet as it's
> >re-bubbled, losing its energy to the outside.
> 
> Little, we hope.
> 
> >What we would need to gain any profit over the blower-alone approach
> >would be an air-tight construction of the two sheets and a liquid
> >that'd produce very "sturdy" bubbles, so that the air-movement rate
> >could be lowered.
> 
> Right.
> 
> >just my thoughts....
> 
> Thanks Albrecht. Time for less gedanken experiments?
> 
> NickI just stumbled across your thoughts on heat movement through walls.... 
"radiation is my last concern"...????  Maybe in your part of the country. 
Here in Phoenix, we have been building test houses since 1986. What we 
have found is radiation the primary source of heat movement.  This was 
proven in our last house using no insulation, only a reflective film 
(radiant barrier) in the walls.  The 2400 sq ft home consumed $56.00 in 
electricity in the month of August!  A comparable home would use $300+ 
with standard insulation products which focus on limiting conductive and 
convective heat movement.  I can be reached at: blindsay@getnet.com
Brad Lindsay


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:43 EDT 1996
Article: 730 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!miner.usbm.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 25 Apr 1996 15:13:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4lois6$gsm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317BCCC0.4539@ucs.orst.edu> <4lmfa7$1u9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317FBBA5.5FA0@matforsk.nlh.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48604 alt.energy.renewable:15022 bit.listserv.geodesic:4785 alt.architecture.alternative:6828 sci.environment:92448 alt.home.repair:22892 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6319 alt.solar.thermal:730

Andreas Haffner  <andreas.haffner@matforsk.nlh.no> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> David Davis  <davisd@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>> >I have to agree with George. Logic tells me you have provided numerous
>> >small wet paths for energy transfer via the bubble walls. Before the
>> >bubbles transfer relied on convection in the air in the space.
>> 
>> A lot of little convection paths in series will have more thermal resistance
>> than one big one...

>Misunderstanding here, I think:

Perhaps so...

>Before you had one large convection path

Right...

>With the bubbles you have many small convection paths and additionally many
>*conduction* paths.

That may not be so bad... Water has a US R-value of about 0.25 ft^2-hr/Btu
per inch, as I recall, eg for downward heat conduction. So what would we have
as the simple aggregate conductive thermal resistance owing to the water films,
>from  one side of a wall to the other, if the 4" wall space were filled with
a regular matrix of 1/4" cubical bubbles with a 0.0001" (approx 12 micron,
on the order of an 80 F black body IR wavelength) wall thickness, ie if the
wall cross section were 2500 parts air and 1 part water in each direction? 

A 2500 x 2500 foot wall would have the equivalent of a 1 ft^2 thermally
conductive water shunt 4" thick with a US thermal resistance of 1, so the
wall would have an effective thermal conductance of 1/(2500^2 ft^2) or
an R-value of 6,250,000. Not bad :-) This is more easily investigated by
experiment. We need a few more serious 12 year old scientists... 

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:43 EDT 1996
Article: 731 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!miner.usbm.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 25 Apr 1996 15:39:09 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4lokct$hcq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4l5b9h$2b1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317D1EF0.436D@getnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48605 alt.energy.renewable:15023 bit.listserv.geodesic:4786 alt.architecture.alternative:6829 sci.environment:92449 alt.home.repair:22893 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6320 alt.solar.thermal:731

Brad Lindsay  <ab8r@getnet.com> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> Albrecht Kadlec  <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> >nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>> >I always care about radiation losses last:
>> >conduction and convection losses come first.
 
>>Nick, I just stumbled across your thoughts on heat movement through walls... 

Good...

>"radiation is my last concern"...????

That was Albrecht's thought, not mine. It looks like the >> >'s above
somehow got out of sync.

>Maybe in your part of the country. 

Definitely. We are more concerned about heating than cooling here, and
for that, R-values work pretty well up to some temperature like 200 F.

>Here in Phoenix, we have been building test houses since 1986. What we 
>have found is radiation the primary source of heat movement.  This was 
>proven in our last house using no insulation, only a reflective film 
>(radiant barrier) in the walls.  The 2400 sq ft home consumed $56.00 in 
>electricity in the month of August!

Sounds nice, but why so much? How about ventilating your adobe house
at night or building a tower with a few 55 gallon drums full of water
behind your frame house, with some south glazing on top? In the summer,
allow the sun to heat up the top drums during the day and vent the whole
tower at night with cooler night air, using the top as a solar chimney
with stored heat from the day. Allow this cool night air to circulate
into the house as well. Close the outer vents during the day. Putting a
wet mesh over the lower vent would further lower the night temp on an
average August day, swamp-cooler-style. And pumping some water up from
a shallow pond in the ceiling above the cool drums to a shallow pond
on the roof would allow additional radiative cooling on clear still nights
when the roof pond could be up to 20 F cooler than the air temp, owing to
night-sky radiation. You might use one window AC for dehumidification.

And solar heat all the water drums in the winter. 

>A comparable home would use $300+ with standard insulation products which
>focus on limiting conductive and convective heat movement. 

Sounds better and cheaper :-)

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Microprocessor hardware, memory, ASIC, and computer design. Telecommunication
system design. Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost,
residential solar heating and cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior
Member, IEEE. Registered US Patent Agent. Fluent in French.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 27 11:43:44 EDT 1996
Article: 732 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!miner.usbm.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!cocoa.brown.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Another swamp thang
Date: 26 Apr 1996 21:27:22 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <4lrt5q$cqb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4lgn7d$lns@morse.ukonline.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48651 alt.energy.renewable:15032 bit.listserv.geodesic:4808 alt.architecture.alternative:6832 sci.environment:92624 alt.home.repair:22912 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6344 alt.solar.thermal:732

Ah'm just back from Texas. "Why do aggies think all wise men are firemen?
Because they say they have come from afar." :-)
 
Texas is two-dimensional, with more wind in the north and sun in the west.
The SE corner is more humid, with warm nights in August. The NW corner is
more desertlike, with cool summer nights. Texans are starting to realize that
they now use more energy per capita than anyone else on earth, as net energy
importers, consuming more energy than they export. These days, Texans can make
$3,000 per acre per year growing cabbages and onions, vs $2,000 per acre
wind farming or $1,600 per acre pumping oil.

One man says "Ah have mah very own backyard gas well, 30,000 cubic feet
per day at 180 pounds per square inch. It shore is nice to be warm in the
winter. Ah just use it for heat. All ah do is add stinkum. Gotta do that or
you'll blow yourself up. Not worth hookin' up to a pipeline, since they're
run by thieves." In Abilene, electricity comes from natural gas.

One frugal Abilene house uses $100/month in winter for gas heat and $100/month
in summer for air-conditioning. It has 6 window air conditioners. Can the
owners use less fossil fuel?

Perhaps describing a particular system to help this house will help others 
see how this might be done more generally, as well as in other particular
ways for different houses in different situations.

This house needs 200 Btu/hr/degree F of heating or cooling. With an indoor max
temp of 80 F on a 24 hour average 84 F July day with an average daily high of
95 F it might need 12 hr(95 F - 80 F) 200 = 36K Btu of cooling. The average
minimum nightime temperature in Abilene in July is 74 F, with a relative
humidity of 71%, ie a wet bulb temp of about 67 F. Suppose we store 5 days of
cooling load at this temp, allowing a thermal mass C to rise from 67 to 77 F:
36K x 5 = 180K Btu = 10 x C, requires C = 18K lb of water, so we might use 36
500 lb 55 gallon drums full of water for cooling. Let's use 42 cool drums, and
put another 28 on top, behind some south glazing, to make a solar chimney to
move some night air up around the cool drums. Used plastic drums cost about
$2 each in Abilene. Straw bales for walls should be about the same price, and
chickenwire/fiberglass ferrocement costs about 20 cents/square foot. 

December days in Abilene have an average 24 hour outdoor temp of 46 F and
an average daytime temp of 57 F, with 1400 Btu/ft^2 of south wall sun. On
such a day this house needs about 24 hrs(68F-46F)200=100K Btu to keep warm.
Water heating might require another 50K Btu/day. How much low-thermal-mass
sunspace glazing is needed to keep this house at 68 F on an average December
day? Let's assume that 100% of the of sun that falls on the sunspace glazing
passes into the sunspace, which has a temperature of 87 F during an average
6 hour day, when the outdoor temp is 57 F. A shallow low-thermal-mass
sunspace would lose about 6 hr (87-57) = 180 Btu/ft^2 when the sun is shining,
and lose no heat at night, for a net gain of about 1200 Btu/ft^2/day, so
keeping the house warm would require a minimum of about 100K/1.2K = 83 ft^2
of "solar siding," or an 8' tall x 12' wide x 4' deep sunspace, or an 8' tall
x 16' long x 8' deep sunspace. The sunspace glazing could be smaller if the
ground in front had a reflecting pond or a white surface. To avoid heat gain
in the summer we might use a 4' overhang, some operable vent doors, and some
greenhouse shadecloth hanging inside in the winter and outside over the
glazing in summer. 

How warm would our 70 drums full of water have to be to store enough heat
for 5 days without sun? Storing 5 x 150K Btu with a heat capacity
C = 70 x 500 = 35,000 Btu/degree F and a minimum usable drumwater temp
of about 80 F, means the fully-charged drumwater temp for this heat battery
should be at least T = 80 F + 750K Btu/35K Btu/F = 101 F.

                                                night pool
Suppose our swamp thing looks like this:        .......... ---
        (from the east)                          g D hot. vent door
                                .                g Drums.
        <--south        .                .       g.......  
                .                                . cool .  16'
   .    .       .                           vent . Drums.
        .  sun  .             house              . D  D .
  pond? . space .                           vent . D  D . vent door
......................................................................

                                                    8'
        (from the top)                           ........
                                                 . D  D .
The upper solar closet part of this structure    . D  D .
might have 8' x 16' of south glazing, with 2     . D  D .
layers of drums stacked vertically. The lower    . D  D . 16'
part might have 3 layers of vertically-stacked   . D  D .
drums with 14 drums in each layer. There might   . D  D .
be a shallow EPDM rubber pond on the bottom,     . D  D .
another pond between the upper an lower parts,   ........ 
another just under the roof, and another on top
of the roof, with straw bales underneath. The floor of this
drum structure might be the lower EPDM rubber pond, a few inches deep.

We would need to pay attention to fire ants and termites in Abilene, as
well as rodents, where the straw bales touch the ground. It seems to me that
a rubble foundation wall with strawbales laid on top, surrounded by a half-
inch of ferrocement would take care of all that. Here's a quote from page
468 of Aden B. and Marjorie P. Meinel's 1977 book, _Applied Solar Energy_:

  In our home solar heating system we used water as the thermal storage
  medium for an air-transfer unit, the water being contained in 1000
  one-gallon polyethylene bottles stacked so that air could flow between
  them. They worked satisfactorily until some desert pack rats invaded
  the storage bin, making nests of the insulation and chewing holes
  in the water bottles.

What will the drum temperature be after a string of average December days?
With an average roof reflectivity of 60% (some aluminum paint) we might have
a solar input of about 1400 x 1.6 x 128 ft^2 = 287K Btu/day. If we stored
this heat all over inside the structure, we would lose heat through the
128 ft^2 of R1 south glazing during the day, and the 128 ft^2 of R30 wall
behind the glazing and the other 768 ft^2 of R30 straw bale walls at night.

If the energy that flows into the drum structure, Ein, equals the energy that
flows out of the structure on an average day, then we have Ein = 287K, and 

Eout = 6 hr (T-46) 128 ft^2/R1        south glazing,          day
     +18 hr (T-46) 128 ft^2/R30         "      "              night
     +24 hr (T-46) 768 ft^2/R30       remainder of structure, 24 hours

     = (T-46)(768+76.8+614.4) = 1460(T-46) = 287K = Ein, so 

T = 46 + 287K/1460 = 242.7 F.

Of course the water won't really get that hot, because it will boil at 212 F,
and radiation loss will limit the temperature sooner than that. Suffice it to
say the water temp in December should be greater than 101 F, even though the
structure is only half-glazed on the south side. Moving the structure away
>from  the house so it is no longer shaded below and glazing the whole south
side would make it collect more solar heat.

The purpose of the EPDM rubber pond on the ground is to help transfer heat
downwards from the glazed area above. We need to transfer about 80 K Btu/day
>from  the upper drums to the lower ones, and we might do this by pumping some
water up from the ground level pond to the pond under the ceiling at the top
of the structure. How much water? 80K Btu/24 hours = 3.4K Btu/hour. If the
upper pond water were 10 F warmer than the lower pond water, we would need
to move 340 pounds of water per hour or 5.6 pounds of water per minute or
0.7 gallons per minute from the lower pond to the upper one, ie 16', which
we could do with a perfect 0.003 horsepower immersion pump in the lower pond,
requiring 2 watts of electrical power if it were 100% efficient.  

The ceiling pond might also be used to extract winter heat for the house,
especially if the 55 gallon drums below had a thermal conductor like sand
between their tops and bottoms. If the ceiling pond water were 10 F cooler
than the drumwater, the maximum heat transfer rate via the ceiling pond might
be something like 10 F (70 drums x 25 ft^2/drum) x 1.5 Btu/hr-ft^2-F = 26K
Btu/hour, corresponding to an outdoor temp of 68 - 26K/200 = -63 F for this
house. A fan below the ceiling pond would increase the heat transfer rate.
The house might use a fan coil unit or auto radiator to transfer the heat
>from  the ceiling pond water to the house air.

Domestic hot water could be supplied via a simple concentric pipe heat
exchanger located beneath the existing water heater in the house, upstream
of the fan coil unit in the same circulation loop.

The heat transfer rate from the house to the lower pond in the summer would
also depend on the lower pond-drumwater temperature difference. If the house
were 80 F, and the floor pond water were 77 F, and the outdoor temperature
95 F, the house would need 3K Btu/hour of cooling, which might come from a
few $139 all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct heat exchangers made by Magicaire,
which transfer 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm,
with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop, attached to the suction side of a few $11
window fans. How many of these fan coil units would we need to cool the
house, at 95 F? At a temperature difference of 3 F, each one should transfer
45K x 3/(125-68) = 2368 Btu/hour, so one or two should be enough, especially
if the house still has one window air conditioner for dehumidification. There
are still a few details to work out here. Direct heat transfer from the drums
to the house air via vents would be more efficient, but that might involve
Legionnaire's disease or swampy smells.

In the summer, we need to remove 36K Btu/day from the lower drums on an
average night, by letting some 67 F moist air flow over them, drawn in by
a fan, or a vacuum created by the solar chimney above (perhaps with help from
a windscoop using the average 10.3 mph wind in Abilene in July.) A solar
chimney with height H feet between unobstructed top and bottom vent openings
each having area Av square feet, with a temperature difference of DT degrees
>from  top to bottom will have an approximate airflow Q in cfm of 

     Q = 16.6 Av square root (H DT).

For instance, if the vents have an area of 8 ft^2 and the height is 8' and
the temperature at the top of the chimney is 100 F and the temperature at
the bottom is 80 F, the chimney will have an airflow of about 

     Q = 16.6 (8 ft^2) square root (8' (100 F - 80 F)) = 1680 cfm.

Suppose we make our vent doors 8 square feet, eg 8' long x 1' wide.
The warm part of our chimney is 8' tall. What does the temperature
difference DT between the outside air and the solar closet have to be
to remove 36K Btu from the drums overnight, assuming the drums below
are a perfect heat exchanger? 

An airstream of Q cfm with a temperature difference DT moves about DT Q  
Btu/hour of heat, so overnight we need DT Q cfm x 60 m/hr = 36K Btu, ie 

     DT (16.6) (8) square root (8 DT) (60) = 36K Btu, or 
                             DT^(3/2) 1358 = 36K, or
                                        DT = (36K/1358)^(2/3) = 8.9 F.

This shouldn't be too hard to manage, since with the roof reflector
the summer solar input should be about the same as the winter input,
which made for almost a 200 F temperature rise above ambient...

The roof pond might be used for further summer cooling, by pumping some water
up from the pond above the cool drums through the roof pond on a clear night
with no wind. Baruch Gavoni's _Passive and Low-Energy Cooling of Buildings_
book says that under these circumstances, rooftop temperatures can be up to
10 C below outdoor air temperatures, owing to night sky radiation, even with
no evaporation of water. 

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:29:57 EDT 1996
Article: 733 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!news-1.csn.net!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: 27 Apr 1996 09:14:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48667 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1226 alt.energy.renewable:15036 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6345 alt.solar.thermal:733

Donald Kulha <dkulha@wco.com> wrote:

>      I've been working on a somewhat interesting project lately...

Sounds nice :-)

>The maximum daily power production has been about 1400w so far...

I guess you mean 1400 W-h? Are you wasting the rest of the 8,000-10,000 W-h
of sun that falls on the photovoltaic panels on the roof of your van as heat?

>     The main use of the system will be to power computers, lights, a fan,
>my coffee grinder, a stereo, a deskjet 660 and misc other stuff when I
>work with friends on our CD-ROM. The system also powers a CB, a
>2-meter/440mhz Kenwood transceiver, a TNC, a cell phone and charges
>various sized small nicads for radios, flashlights, a shaver, etc.

You don't mention how you keep the van warm inside or make hot water. Perhaps 
the fan could be a solar chimney. Or you might trickle a little water over
those PV panels, under another layer of single polycarbonate glazing. Or hook
up a small model-sized jet engine powered by Freon, a mini-version of the
Ormat turbine generators used to make 5 million watts of electrical power
>from  63 acres of solar salt ponds in the dead sea, starting from 170 F brine.

Nick



From gssi@gssi.edu Sun May  5 13:29:57 EDT 1996
Article: 734 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!melba.bby.com.au!news.dacom.co.kr!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!saturn.gssi.edu!news
From: gssi@gssi.edu
Newsgroups: alt.shared-reality.startrek.klingon,alt.soc.comets,alt.soc.comets.planetary-shield,alt.solar.thermal,alt.starfleet.rpg,alt.startrek.cardassian,alt.startrek.creative,alt.startrek.klingon,alt.startrek.uss-amagosa,alt.tv.star-trek.voyager,alt.ufo.reports,alt.ufo.reports,aus.sf,aus.sf.babylon5,aus.sf.star-trek,aus.tv.x-files,
Subject: Space institute via the internet
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 11:45:37 -0400
Organization: The Outer Space Development Co., USA
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <31824121.73F@gssi.edu>
Reply-To: gssi@gssi.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: mars.gssi.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.shared-reality.startrek.klingon:1034 alt.soc.comets:43 alt.soc.comets.planetary-shield:142 alt.solar.thermal:734 alt.starfleet.rpg:45163 alt.startrek.cardassian:1779 alt.startrek.creative:37055 alt.startrek.klingon:10233 alt.startrek.uss-amagosa:1232 alt.tv.star-trek.voyager:24716 alt.ufo.reports:8361

Galileo Space Sciences Institute is now offering courses via the
internet! Check us out at http://www.gssi.edu. Or for introductory
info, send e-mail to gssi-info@mars.gssi.edu.


From strider@shadowmac.org Sun May  5 13:29:57 EDT 1996
Article: 735 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!miner.usbm.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!washington.Capitol.Net!winternet.com!not-for-mail
From: strider@shadowmac.org (Raul Almquist)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Another swamp thang
Followup-To: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Date: 28 Apr 1996 00:08:10 GMT
Organization: ShadowMAC Systems
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4lucta$s0@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4lgn7d$lns@morse.ukonline.co.uk> <4lrt5q$cqb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shadowmac.shadowmac.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48682 alt.energy.renewable:15037 bit.listserv.geodesic:4811 alt.architecture.alternative:6837 sci.environment:92689 alt.home.repair:22923 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6347 alt.solar.thermal:735

Nick Pine (nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu) wrote:
: Texas is two-dimensional, with more wind in the north and sun in the west.
: The SE corner is more humid, with warm nights in August. The NW corner is
: more desertlike, with cool summer nights. Texans are starting to realize that
: they now use more energy per capita than anyone else on earth, as net energy
: importers, consuming more energy than they export. These days, Texans can make
: $3,000 per acre per year growing cabbages and onions, vs $2,000 per acre
: wind farming or $1,600 per acre pumping oil.

  You forgot one!!!

  OR, you can wind farm AND grow cabbages & onions while making $5K per acre!


From morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us Sun May  5 13:29:58 EDT 1996
Article: 736 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.new-york.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!cyclops.dsphere.net!noc-annex1-p10.dsphere.net!morris
From: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 22:10:50 pdt
Organization: Organization? Not much around here...
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <morris.216.009B48D3@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: noc-annex1-p10.dsphere.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48686 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1227 alt.energy.renewable:15039 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6352 alt.solar.thermal:736

>From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
>Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
>Date: 27 Apr 1996 09:14:02 -0400

In article <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

<discussion of solar panels on the roof of a van>

>You don't mention how you keep the van warm inside or make hot water. Perhaps 
>the fan could be a solar chimney. Or you might trickle a little water over
>those PV panels, under another layer of single polycarbonate glazing. Or hook
>up a small model-sized jet engine powered by Freon, a mini-version of the
>Ormat turbine generators used to make 5 million watts of electrical power
>from 63 acres of solar salt ponds in the dead sea, starting from 170 F brine.

Could you elaborate about the model-sized jet engine powered by freon?
I've not heard about that before...



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:29:58 EDT 1996
Article: 737 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Another swamp thang
Date: 28 Apr 1996 14:47:13 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4m0efh$1e5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4lgn7d$lns@morse.ukonline.co.uk> <4lrt5q$cqb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4lucta$s0@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48697 alt.energy.renewable:15041 bit.listserv.geodesic:4821 alt.architecture.alternative:6839 sci.environment:92717 alt.home.repair:22929 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6361 alt.solar.thermal:737

Raul Almquist <strider@shadowmac.org> wrote:
 
>  OR, you can wind farm AND grow cabbages & onions while making $5K per acre!

Good idea :-) For some reason, several speakers at the Abilene Renewables 
conference implied that with windfarming, no other land use was possible.
But one of them, Michael Osborne, mentioned that a wind farm only uses up
about 2% of the space under it, for foundations, roads, etc.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:29:58 EDT 1996
Article: 738 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: 28 Apr 1996 15:03:55 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4m0fer$1o9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <morris.216.009B48D3@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48698 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1228 alt.energy.renewable:15042 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6362 alt.solar.thermal:738

Mike Morris <morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> wrote:
 
>>...Or you might trickle a little water over those PV panels, under another
>>layer of single polycarbonate glazing. Or hook up a small model-sized jet
>>engine powered by Freon, a mini-version of the Ormat turbine generators 
>>used to make 5 million watts of electrical power from 63 acres of solar
>>salt ponds in the dead sea, starting from 170 F brine.
 
>Could you elaborate about the model-sized jet engine powered by freon?
>I've not heard about that before...

As I understand it, these Ormat generators are more or less full sized
jet engines, running on Freon in a Rankine thermodynamic cycle. I think
their thermodynamic efficiency is only 6%, vs. the 30% Stirling cycle
generators used by Cummins with tracking and concentrating solar collectors
with higher temperature differences using liquid sodium heat transport, but
it seems to me that what matters is overall efficiency, ie the product of
solar collection efficiency and engine efficiency, and cost-effectiveness
in $/kWh. Salt ponds have higher collection efficiencies and they are a lot 
cheaper than tracking concentrators. 

If you want to read more about this, you might try contacting Ormat or
looking at 

Tabor, H., Proc. of the UN Conference on New Sourches of Energy, 4, 59,
(1964). "Large Area Solar Collectors (Solar Ponds) for Power Production,"

Tabor, H. and R. Matz, Solar Energy, 9, 177, (1965). "Solar Pond Project,"

or

Tabor, H. and Z. Weinberger, in Solar Energy Handbook (J. Kreider and
F. Kreith, eds), McGraw Hill, NY (1981) "Non-convecting Solar Ponds."

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:30:00 EDT 1996
Article: 739 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 29 Apr 1996 11:03:39 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 200
Message-ID: <4m2lob$d4e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4l5b9h$2b1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317D1EF0.436D@getnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Keywords: science project
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48717 alt.energy.renewable:15046 bit.listserv.geodesic:4829 alt.architecture.alternative:6841 sci.environment:92771 alt.home.repair:22936 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6407 alt.solar.thermal:739 sci.engr.lighting:4730

Still thinking about my 12 year old friend who added 1/4 tsp of lemon juice
to her standard bubble mix (1/2 cup green Dawn, 3 Tbs glycerin, 2 quarts H2O)
to make the bubbles last 111 seconds at 80 F and 506 sec at 45 F, vs 309 sec 
and 185 sec; 1/4 tsp of maple syrup instead made this 431 and 345 sec. What
is a good bubble solution for blocking longwave IR radiation from a house
window? What is that IR wavelength?

Black bodies radiate heat at many wavelengths. Planck's law describes
a curve with a peak for this, ie at wavelength lambda, a blackbody with
temperature T (Kelvin) radiates with an intensity

     E(lambda) = C1/(lambda^5[exp(C2/(lambda T))-1]), where

            C1 = 3.74 x 10^-16 m^2W and 
            C2 = 0.0144 mK.

Wein's displacement law says where the peak is: the wavelength corresponding
to the maximum intensity of blackbody radiation is Lmax = 2898/T microns.
80 F is about 27 C or 300 K, so the wavelength with max intensity at 80 F is
about 10 microns or 0.0004 inches, ie just less than half a thousandth of an
inch. How can we measure a bubble thickness like that? What makes bubble
walls thick?

Compared to the intensity at this wavelength, this blackbody radiates
at some other wavelength L with a relative intensity of approximately

          Irel = (Lmax/L)^5 x exp(C2/(Lmax T)-1)/exp(C2/(L T)-1).

L: 1 micron       10^5        120.5             / 7 x 10^20 = 1.7 x 10^-14
   5 microns      32          120.5             / 14765     = 0.26
   10 microns     1           120.5             / 120.5     = 1
   20 microns     0.031       120.5             / 10        = 0.38
   50 microns     0.00032     120.5             / 1.61      = 0.024

It looks like thicker bubble walls are better, up to the point where the
bubble wall itself begins to be a sideways path between the two glazings.
If the bubble wall were 10 times thicker than the longest interesting
wavelength, (as people think about transmission lines), it might be 500
microns or 0.020" thick, which seems very thick for a bubble. A wall 4" thick
filled with 0.2" bubbles like that would have a 10% water cross section, so
we might think of such a 10' x 10' wall as having a 1' x 1' thermal shunt 
made of water with a thermal conductance of 1 Btu/hr. If that were the only
thermal path, that wall would have an R-value of 100... Perhaps a bubble
with a given wall thickness is a better insulator at higher temperatures
with shorter wavelengths.

Water has an index of refraction of about 4/3, so each air-water interface 
with a sufficiently thick layer of water compared to a wavelength would have
a Fresnel loss of about ((4/3-1)/(4/3+1))^2 = 1/7^2 = 2%. A 4" thick wall
with 20 clear 0.2" bubbles in series might have an attenuation of 1.02^20
= 1.5 for IR radiation. Not much... We may need smaller bubbles than that,
perhaps with thinner walls and some dye. Let's see, an 80 F room loses about
(80-30)/R2 = 25 Btu/hr/ft^2 of heat on a 30 F day through an ordinary double
glazed window. Two layers of poly film with little greenhouse effect (IR
blocking) have an R-value of about 1.2... And a 1 ft^2 80 F blackbody with
no glazing radiates 0.174E-8(460+80)^4 = 148 Btu/hr, while the 30 F world
radiates 100 Btu/hr back at it, so it loses 48 Btu/hr by radiation, ie the
R-value owing to radiation is about 1 (50/48.) 

An attenuation of 10, ie 1.02^N=10 makes N=ln(10)/ln(1.02)=114 0.035" diam.
bubbles across a 4" wall, at 28 bubbles per inch... How big are the bubbles
that come out of an airstone in an aquarium? What happens if we remove the
fish and fill the aquarium with some interesting soaps and IR dyes (?) and
warm water, and glue some foamboard on the sides (or start with a styrofoam
cooler) and put a glass lid on the top and measure how fast the water cools
with two thermometers and a clock... Suppose our cooler is 1' tall x 1' wide
x 2' long with a 1' x 2' glass lid, and the sides are 1" thick R4 white
beadboard, coffeecup foam, with a thermal conductance of Coth = 8 ft^2/R4
= 2 Btu/hr-F. This situation might be like a bubblewall ceiling under a
clear polycarbonate roof, with natural daylighting and vertical heatflow. 

Without the bubbles, we might have a thermal conductance of Coth + 2 ft^2/R1
= 4 Btu/hr-degree F. With bubbles, the conductance might decrease to
Coth + 2/Rx, close to 2 if Rx is large. So if we filled the cooler it with 
8" of 130 F water, ie 80 pounds of hot water, we might expect the box with
no bubbles to lose (130-70)4 = 240 Btu to a 70 F room in an hour, reducing
the water temp to 130-240/80 = 127 F. The box might be 124 F after 2 hours
or 70+(130-70)exp(-4/20) = 119 F after 4 hours, since the RC time constant
of the box would be about 1/4*80 = 20 hours with no bubbles. (After the
first hour, the water is cooler, so it loses less heat in the next hour,
so the temperature drops less in the next hour, etc.)

If we measure a water temperature of Tb (F) after 20 hours, with bubbles,
and Tnb without bubbles, what is Rx? T = 70+(130-70)exp(-20/RC), so
RC = -20/ln((T-70)/60) = R x 80, so R = -1/(4 ln((T-70)/60). Suppose we
measured Tnb = 92 F and Tb = 106 F. Then Rnb = -1/(4 ln((920-70)/60) =
0.24918 F-hr/Btu and Rb = 0.48940, so 1/Rnb-1/Rb = (Coth+2/R1)-(Coth+2/Rx)
= 2 - 2/Rx, so Rx = 2/(2+1/Rb-1/Rnb) = 2/(2+2.0433-4.0132) = R33.

Dr. Aristid Grosse made bubbles that lasted more than a year, as did Belgian
physicist Joseph Plateau in the 1800s. Dr. Grosse's principles of bubble
health and long life are: 1. Dust is the enemy of bubbles. 2. Carbon dioxide
poisons bubbles (better bubbles are blown by non-humans), and 3. Bubbles
love cold. They also like humidity. Glycerin helps bubbles fight humidity.
Maybe we don't need it inside a glazing cavity with 100% humidity.  

Perhaps this should be a closed system, to avoid building up dust.
 
Something like this? 

                        ---------------------------- 
		       |  ----------------------    |
       sand filter?--> | |             <--     |    | <--bubbles
                       | |                     |    |
                       | |   ----------        |    |
                       | |  |  -  air  | -->   |    |
                       |  --  | | pump  ----   |    |
		       |  ----  ----------  |  |    | <--water
                       |w|                | |  |wwww| <--water level
		       | |                |  --     |
		       | |                 ----     |
		       | | water return->      |    |
                       |  ---------------------     |
                        ----------------------------

Let's all try to invent an insulating bubble wall, perhaps starting with
two pieces of glass or single-layer polycarbonate plastic with butyl tape or
caulk over a plastic 1x3" or foamboard frame that can be filled between with
bubbles at night emerging from an aquarium airstone immersed in a soapy
solution at the bottom. This could really be useful in a passive solar
house or a greenhouse, like Beadwall. Simple, elegant, movable insulation.
During the day, the sun shines in on some thermal mass, and at night the
glazing fills up with bubbles, keeping the heat in. Commercial greenhouses
use two huge layers of UV-treated polyethylene film inflated to form an
air pillow 4" thick. A tiny 50 watt blower can inflate a 1 acre greenhouse.
Would bubblewalls work with poly film pillows?

Bubbles tend to last longer in cold humid conditions. A layer of frozen
bubbles inside an outside glazing might be very good insulation on a very
cold night. Perhaps there is an optimal bubble size for insulation. Too
small, and convection losses might be small, but conduction losses and air
pump power and water transport thermal losses might be large. Too big, and
convection losses go up. 

Ohm's law for heatflow is a good starting point here: the amount of heat Q
in Btu/hour that flows through a wall with area A ft^2 and R-value R and
temps Ti (F) on one side and To on the other, is Q = (Ti-To)A/R. 

Here's another bubble wall test setup, a 2' cube divided in half by a bubble
wall that might have an R-value of 2 when empty and 20 when full. We might make
the cube out of 2" Styrofoam with an R-value of 10. One side could be kept
at 32 F with some melting ice at the top, with some foam on top and around
the window screen ice tray, and the other side could be kept at 132 F with
a thermostat and a light bulb, with a piece of aluminum foil to shade the
bubblewall from the bulb. How much ice water might we collect in an hour with
the bubblewall empty and full of bubbles? This might be a more accurate way
to measure the R-value than the aquarium way, especially since house windows
are usually vertical, with lower heat losses. What might we get for readings
in each case if we hook up the light bulb to a kWh meter? It's nice to have
two ways to check the heatflow through the bubble wall.

                       .........................      70 F room
                    .   ice     ..          .  .
                 .........................     .
                 .           ..          .     .
                 .    To     ..  Ti      . R10 .  2'
              2' .    32 F   ..  132 F   .     .
                 .           ..  light   .     .
                 .           ..  bulb    .  .
                 .........................    2'
                       1'         1' 
                             ^
                             |___ bubble wall

It takes 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice, and there are 3410 Btu in a kWh.

Here is the following electrical circuit analog:

                    Iir    32 F       132 F   Ier
                      -->   |   <--    |    -->
             70 F ---wwww---*---wwww---*---wwww--- 70 F
                    R10/12  |   Rx/4   |  R10/12
                    = 0.83  |          |  = 0.83
                            |          |
                           ---     ^  ---
                        Ui ---     |  ---
                            |      Ue  |
                           ---        ---
                            -          -

Where Ui and Ue are flows of ice and electrical energy (Ui flows down,
in this picture.) 

What would Ui and Ue be if Rx were 2 without bubbles and 20 with bubbles?

In either case, Iir = (70-32)x12 ft^2/R10 ft^2 = 45.6 Btu/hr flows into
the ice from the room, and Ier = (132-70)x12 ft^2/R10 = 74.4 Btu/hr flows
out of the light bulb into the room. If Rx = 2, an additional
(132-32)x 4 ft^2/R2 = 200 Btu/hr flows out of the light bulb into the ice,
and if Rx = 20, only 20 Btu/hr more flows that way. The total ice and
electrical energy flows would be  

     Rx = 2 (no bubbles)                  Rx = 20 (bubbles)

Ui   245.6 Btu/hr (27.3 oz ice water/hr)  65.6 (7.3 oz ice water/hr)

Ue   274.4 Btu/hr (80.5 watts)            94.4 Btu/hr (27.7 watts)

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Sun May  5 13:30:00 EDT 1996
Article: 740 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm114-08.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:52:25 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <jmucci-2904962352250001@pm114-08.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm114-08.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48749 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1230 alt.energy.renewable:15050 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6412 alt.solar.thermal:740

In article <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

| Donald Kulha <dkulha@wco.com> wrote:
| >The maximum daily power production has been about 1400w so far...
| 
| I guess you mean 1400 W-h? Are you wasting the rest of the 8,000-10,000 W-h
| of sun that falls on the photovoltaic panels on the roof of your van as heat?

Sorry to butt in here, but since Nick brought it up...;-)

Watts _are_ power, aren't they?  Watt-hours are joules (or watt-seconds
are anyway) and that's energy.

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:30:01 EDT 1996
Article: 741 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: 30 Apr 1996 06:50:42 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4m4ra2$929@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-2904962352250001@pm114-08.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48751 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1231 alt.energy.renewable:15051 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6413 alt.solar.thermal:741

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:

>|Donald Kulha <dkulha@wco.com> wrote:
>|>The maximum daily power production has been about 1400w so far...
>| 
>|I guess you mean 1400 W-h? Are you wasting the rest of the 8,000-10,000 W-h
>|of sun that falls on the photovoltaic panels on the roof of your van as heat?
>
>Sorry to butt in here, but since Nick brought it up...;-)
>
>Watts _are_ power, aren't they?

Yes, but I'm sure Don meant Watt-hours above, as in "The maximum number of
bushels of potatos I have dug in a day was 5," not "my personal maximum 
instantaneous potato digging rate was 3 per second." Altho the two are
equivalent over a day in some sense, the first is a quantity of energy,
and the second is an instantaneous _rate_ of energy collection, ie a
(potato) power. Like miles vs miles per hour.

Don also said his solar collection area was about 4' x 8', ie about 3 m^2,
and most places receive about 3-5 kWh/m^2 on a day, so at 10% PV collection
efficiency, he would collect about 3 m^2 x 4,000 watt hours/m^2/day  x 0.1
= 1200 W-h of energy in a day.

And he mentioned that his peak power output was 375 watts nominal. One can
collect about 3X the peak power output in Watt-hours per day, numerically-
speaking, as a very rough rule of thumb. 

Watt-hours are joules (or watt-seconds are anyway) and that's energy.

Right, 1 Watt-hour is 1 Watt-hour x 3600 seconds/hour, which is 3600 joules.

My point was, why waste the other 90% of the sun, while using some other
device to heat water? Why not trickle some water over your PVs to collect
some of that 90% "waste heat," or put them inside a sunspace and collect
some warm air to heat the attached house, or add some 2:1 reflectors and
collect twice as much electrical energy with the same hideously-expensive
PV cells, while making some hot water too? The electrical output goes down
a bit, but on the whole, this seems worthwhile, eg using Ovshinsky's cells
at $3./50/peak watt, with 50 W/m^2 @ 20 C and 45 W/m^2 @ 60 C.

Nick



From csi@mail.msen.com Sun May  5 13:30:01 EDT 1996
Article: 742 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!recepsen.aa.msen.com!not-for-mail
From: csi@mail.msen.com (AI Group)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Followup-To: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Date: 1 May 1996 13:07:45 GMT
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4m7nn1$dfh@recepsen.aa.msen.com>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: conch.aa.msen.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48786 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1236 alt.energy.renewable:15062 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6474 alt.solar.thermal:742

: 
: >      I've been working on a somewhat interesting project lately...
: 
I would like to set up solar panels on top of my Pop up camper.  Any 
suggestions?

Would it be practical to buy some of the small ones and connect them in 
series to increase the wattage enough to charge the 12 v battery that runs 
the inverter?
Henry
csi@msen.com


From petertyj@mail.ccil.net Sun May  5 13:30:01 EDT 1996
Article: 743 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ee.net!usenet
From: Pete Tyjewski <petertyj@mail.ccil.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 16:43:40 -0700
Organization: eNET News Server 1
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <318948AC.5E60@mail.ccil.net>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <morris.216.009B48D3@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port105.ccil.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48845 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1239 alt.energy.renewable:15076 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6501 alt.solar.thermal:743

Mike Morris wrote:
> 
> >From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
> >Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
> >Date: 27 Apr 1996 09:14:02 -0400
> 
> In article <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> 
> <discussion of solar panels on the roof of a van>
> 
> >You don't mention how you keep the van warm inside or make hot water. Perhaps
> >the fan could be a solar chimney. Or you might trickle a little water over
> >those PV panels, under another layer of single polycarbonate glazing. Or hook
> >up a small model-sized jet engine powered by Freon, a mini-version of the
> >Ormat turbine generators used to make 5 million watts of electrical power
> >from 63 acres of solar salt ponds in the dead sea, starting from 170 F brine.
> 

why not just put a tire on the shaft of a generator and hang it on the 
bumper be more reliable than the turbine..

or Direct drive to the engine that way it would still work at stop signs

or did I miss the point again?
Pete


From jxlk@cruzio.com Sun May  5 13:30:02 EDT 1996
Article: 744 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!legba.synergy.net!news.scruz.net!cruzio.com!news
From: jim chrislock <jxlk@cruzio.com>
Subject: desalinization
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: Cruzio Community Networking System, Santa Cruz, CA
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 17:30:56 GMT
Message-ID: <31879FD0.64D9@cruzio.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: cruz205.cruzio.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: news@cruzio.com (The News User)
Lines: 1

Does anyone know anything about solar desalinizaation?


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:30:02 EDT 1996
Article: 745 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.ysu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.home.repair
Subject: Re: A bubble wall?
Date: 4 May 1996 09:11:26 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 106
Message-ID: <4mfl1u$ng3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <317D1EF0.436D@getnet.com> <4m2lob$d4e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <168632949wnr@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15100 sci.energy:48896 alt.solar.thermal:745 alt.architecture.alternative:6877 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6523 alt.home.repair:23331

C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL <mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk> wrote:
  
>> Black bodies radiate heat at many wavelengths. Planck's law describes
>> a curve with a peak for this, ie at wavelength lambda, a blackbody with
>> temperature T (Kelvin) radiates with an intensity
>> 
>>      E(lambda) = C1/(lambda^5[exp(C2/(lambda T))-1]), where
>> 
>>             C1 = 3.74 x 10^-16 m^2W and 
>>             C2 = 0.0144 mK.
 
>Something that has been bugging me for the last week, and I can't believe
>I stumbled upon it on the Net - how exactly do you calculate
>[exp(C2/(lambda T))]?

I use the "e-to-the-X" button on my $20 Casio fx-991H calculator, which takes
the base of natural logs, e = 2.718... to the Xth power. For instance, exp(1)
is 2.71828..., exp(2) is 7.389... If T is 300 Kelvin and lambda is 10 microns,
ie 10 x 10^-6 meters,

exp(C2/(lambda T)) = exp(0.0144/(10^-5 x 300)) = exp(4.8) = 121.5104...

>I've been attempting to learn about solar radiation from first principles
>from my copy of 'Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes' by Duffie and
>Beckman

That is not an easy thing to do. I hope you are using the second edition,
1991, I often have trouble following that good book, with BS and MS degrees
in electrical engineering.

>Many thanks if you can help the mathamatically challenged :-(

Glad to try, altho it seems to me that we only need arithmetic to do solar
space heating, with at most high-school algebra. 

Another common and more easily-understood application of exponentials
is in calculating how fast a house or some other thermal mass with
insulation around it cools... A thermal mass C surrounded by a thermal
resistance R has a natural RC "time constant" with a dimension of time,
eg in hours. If we heat the thermal mass up to some temperature DT above the
surrounding temperature Ta, RC is the time it will take to the temperature
difference DT to decrease to 1/e th, ie about 1/3 of its original value.

For instance, an 8' cube of water surrounded by (US) R-20 insulation has
C = 62 x 8^3 = 31K pounds of water with a thermal mass of 31K Btu/degree F,
and a thermal resistance R = 20/(8x8x6) = 0.052 F-hr/Btu, so it has an RC
time constant of RC = 32K x 0.052 = 1653 hours or 68.9 days. So if we heat
the water up to an initial temperature T(0) = 100 F and sit the cube in a
Ta = 70 F room, the water temperature T(D) after D days will be 

T(D) = Ta + (T(0)-Ta) exp(-D/(RC),

so after 10 days, the water temperature would be 

T(10) = 70 + (100-70) exp(-10/68.9) = 70 + 30 exp(-0.145) = 95.9 F.

After 68.9 days, the temperature would be 

T(68.9) = 70 + 30 exp(-1) = 70 + 11 = 81 F.

After a year, the temperature would be 

T(365) = 70 + 30 exp(-5.3) = 70.15 F.

If we made this a 16' cube with R40 insulation, we would have 

RC = 62 x 16^3 x R40/(16^2 x 6) = 6613 hours or 276 days, so after a year
the water temperature would be  

T(365) = 70 + 30 exp(-365/276) = 78 F.

If this cube were outside in 30 F air for a year, the water temp would be 

T(365) = 30 + (100-30) exp(-365/276) = 38 F.

If we added an solar air heater with R1 glazing over one insulated side of
our 8' cube, with some simple plastic flap dampers to let the warm air into
the cube during the day and keep out the cold air at night, and collected
8' x 8' x 1000 Btu/ft^2 of heat over 6 hours every day (an average December
day in Philadelphia), and waited a year, ie 5 time constants, the water would
forget its original temperature, and if the average outdoor temperature over
the year were 55 F, the water would have a more or less constant temperature
T such that the energy that flowed into the cube every day would equal the
energy that flowed out of the cube:

64K Btu/day = 6(T-55)64 ft^2/R1         air heater side, day
           + 18(T-55)64 ft^2/R20        air heater side, night
           + 24(T-55)64x6 ft^2/R20      other sides, 24 hours a day,

ie 64 K = (T-55)(384+57.6+460.8) = 902.4(T-55), so T = 55 + 71 = 126 F.

This might be an interesting outdoor exhibit at a science museum or some
unusual outdoor art at a college, a monolith moving even more slowly than
a very large Foucault pendulum, reminding us that solar energy really can
work in partly cloudy climates, if well-applied. 

We might fill up this 8' cube with 18 55-gallon plastic drums full of water,
each 3' tall and 2' in diameter, in two 3x3 drum layers, with about 300
2-liter plastic soda bottles tucked around in the spaces among them, inside
a few 2x4s and $100 worth of 6 1/2" fiberglass insulation, or strawbale/mortar
walls, with a "truth window" exposing a large thermometer inside.

I have the drums...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun May  5 13:30:02 EDT 1996
Article: 746 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: desalinization
Date: 4 May 1996 14:29:56 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4mg7n4$s2n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31879FD0.64D9@cruzio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

jim chrislock  <jxlk@cruzio.com> wrote:

>Does anyone know anything about solar desalinizaation?

Yes. Try looking in Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal
Processes_, 2nd edition, 1991, pages 657-662, which describe this as more
of an economic than a technical problem, using long trenches covered
with sloped glass or plastic glazing to distill at most about 2 lb of
water per square foot of glazing per day by having the water condense
on the underside of the glazing and run back down into a gutter.

Nick



From alex23@ix.netcom.com Sun May  5 13:30:03 EDT 1996
Article: 747 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: alex23@ix.netcom.com(Who? Where?)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Water heating?
Date: 5 May 1996 02:53:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <4mh57d$emi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-har-tx1-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat May 04  9:53:33 PM CDT 1996

Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
never a problem....just how to best utilize it.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat May 11 09:10:20 EDT 1996
Article: 748 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating?
Date: 5 May 1996 08:42:01 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4mi7mp$8h8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4mh57d$emi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:748 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6544

<alex23@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
>heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
>never a problem....just how to best utilize it.

I wonder if he has a big air conditioner, and how he might heat water
with that, part numbers, performance, etc...  Do people still do that?

Nick



From MaJones@exo.com Sat May 11 09:10:20 EDT 1996
Article: 749 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!news.snni.com!news
From: Mother Jones <MaJones@exo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Double low-e glass with inert gas filling
Date: 6 May 1996 01:16:25 GMT
Organization: ExoCom Internet
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4mjjt9$g0a@news.snni.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp50.snni.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)

We are about to replace a bunch of single pane windows with double pane 
window units. We want noise reduction, and in at least some of the windows 
we want UV filtration because we have fading. These windows are on the south 
side of the house where the sun is quite bright, and that part of the house 
gets quite hot in summer. (However, we live in coastal Southern California, 
so extreme heat and cold are not really a major issue, compared to other 
climates.)

We know that dual-glazing will give us noise reduction, along with 
temperature insulation, and we like that. For the fading and heat problem we 
were planning to get dual-low e glass also, but we've heard that the low-e 
coatings that have been around for a while are now showing that they don't 
actually last. Does anyone have any info about this? Should we go for low-e? 
Why or why not?

We'd also like to know about the argon and other inert gas fillings that are 
often used in dual low-e. How worthwhile is this feature? Is dual low-e 
worthwhile without inert gas filling?

For the windows that are not exposed to direct sun, is there any reason to 
have low-e panes -- with or without inert gas?

Gila Jones     -----     MaJones@exo.com



From cochrell@nmia.com Sat May 11 09:10:21 EDT 1996
Article: 750 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!nmia!news
From: Bill Cochrell <cochrell@nmia.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating?
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 21:01:52 -0600
Organization: New Mexico Internet Access
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <318D6BA0.6852@nmia.com>
References: <4mh57d$emi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup87.nmia.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)

Who? Where? wrote:
> 
> Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
> heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
> never a problem....just how to best utilize it.

Sounds like you are in a latitude that is a prime candidate for a batch 
water heater. There is more info on this page:
http://www.rt66.com/aaasolar/passive.htm

Good Luck -- Bill


From strider@shadowmac.org Sat May 11 09:10:21 EDT 1996
Article: 751 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!not-for-mail
From: strider@shadowmac.org (Raul Almquist)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Looking for a DC motor
Date: 6 May 1996 06:28:55 GMT
Organization: ShadowMAC
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4mk677$d25@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shadowmac.shadowmac.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

  I have need of a DC motor to replace an AC motor in a cloths dryer, if 
anyone knows where such motors can be located please let me know.

  I have a cloths dryer with a dead AC motor in it, I took it up to my 
property recently, hooked up a 4'x 8' solar air heater via a duct control 
shunt to it, to provide the drying heat as needed, now I need to be able 
to get the drum a'moving to dry the cloths, this should work out pretty 
well, but am stumped on the DC motor.  I have checked thru our company's 
resources, but to date, nada...  anyone?

  Too many large furry animals around the property who love playing with 
things that are not 100% attended to by a human, so I need to have a 
dryer to get things dried out properly without rents and muddy paw prints 
all over them.:)


From toml@hal-pc.org Sat May 11 09:10:21 EDT 1996
Article: 752 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.hal-pc.org!usenet
From: toml@hal-pc.org
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 12:50:44 GMT
Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4mklth$b8p@news.hal-pc.org>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4m7nn1$dfh@recepsen.aa.msen.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-67.hal-pc.org
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:48958 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1257 alt.energy.renewable:15118 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6554 alt.solar.thermal:752

csi@mail.msen.com (AI Group) wrote:

>: 
>: >      I've been working on a somewhat interesting project lately...
>: 
>I would like to set up solar panels on top of my Pop up camper.  Any 
>suggestions?

>Would it be practical to buy some of the small ones and connect them in 
>series to increase the wattage enough to charge the 12 v battery that runs 
>the inverter?
>Henry
>csi@msen.com

There is a company that produces solar charging systems for RVs. I had
a catalogue a few years ago. Don't remember the name but someone else
might.




From mikerice@mail.sunsetdirect.com Sat May 11 09:10:21 EDT 1996
Article: 753 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!torn!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!newsfeed.rice.edu!news.sesqui.net!news.galileo.net!usenet
From: Mike Rice <mikerice@mail.sunsetdirect.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Rock bin heat storage
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 15:04:34 -0500
Organization: sunsetdirect.com
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <318E5B52.344C@mail.sunsetdirect.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.187.161.124
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K)

I am designing a house and would like to incorporate passive and 
active solar techniques into it.  Due to the topography of the lot I 
have a space under the main living area that could be a crawl space, 
but I was going to fill it in and pour a slab on grade.

Since this space is already available, could I fill it with washed 
river rock and use it as heat storage? Would it work as a cool storage 
in summer with night flushing? Has anyone tried this before in Austin? 
What about mildew/ condensation? I read a book about some houses in 
Massachusetts in 1983 that used this technique, primarily for heat. I 
would like to know more about this technique....Can anyone help me 
with more up to date info?  Thanks


From dewey@jump.net Sat May 11 09:10:22 EDT 1996
Article: 754 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!jump.net!not-for-mail
From: dewey@jump.net (Dewey Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating?
Date: 7 May 1996 16:30:40 -0500
Organization: Jump Point Communications, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4mofe0$pg4@serv1.jump.net>
References: <4mh57d$emi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4mi7mp$8h8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: serv1-2.jump.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:754 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6580

In article <4mi7mp$8h8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>,
Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
><alex23@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
>>heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
>>never a problem....just how to best utilize it.
>
>I wonder if he has a big air conditioner, and how he might heat water
>with that, part numbers, performance, etc...  Do people still do that?
>

I'm in Austin, Texas and I'd be interested in hearing about this. Are there
any books that talk about this "specifically"?


-dewey
-- 
Dewey Coffman, Jump Point Communications	dewey@jump.net
Pager: 208-2762					http://www.jump.net
O- DNRC


From wstewart@patriot.net Sat May 11 09:10:22 EDT 1996
Article: 755 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: UV window glazing without Low E
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:17:11 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <318F8597.4B28@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-3.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

Does anybody know of a window supplier that sells windows with only the
UV protection?  I am in the final decision stages for a passive solar 
house design and I want to protect my family and furniture from the 
harmful effects of UV radiation without the penalty of reduced 
insolation through the windows, which low-E would impose.

Thanks,

Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Sat May 11 09:10:22 EDT 1996
Article: 756 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Any reasons why attic space shouldn't be utilized?
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:24:43 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <318F875B.7F15@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-3.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

In one new home design I'm considering, the 12 pitch attic can be a 
livable space if I insulate between the rafters vs. the joists.  It is 
my understanding that there can be problems associated with keeping the 
insulation dry.  I've used styrofoam venting channels in order to  bring 
in fresh air from the soffits, but I have also heard that this scheme 
still has long term problems with sheathing and insulation.

Are there techniques available that eliminate these problems?

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat May 11 09:10:23 EDT 1996
Article: 757 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,pa.environment,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: 8 May 1996 12:41:11 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 445
Message-ID: <4mqir7$egq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <31909021.1F8A@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: ignorance is bliss
Keywords: arrogance, greed, politics, physics, advertising
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:6908 alt.energy.renewable:15152 sci.energy:49083 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6612 alt.solar.thermal:757 alt.home.repair:23727 sci.environment:93540

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>george p swanton wrote:
>> 
>> Can anyone offer a pointer to a set of formulae for glazing/
>> mass/temperature/etc calculations involved in passive solar
>> design? I am interested primarily in direct gain residential
>> space heating applications.
>
>These calculations are somewhat complex, if you are considering passive
>solar as your main heat source.  The Passive Solar Industries Council
>has a complete book and software program for this engineering problem.
>
>     Passive Solar Industries Council
>     1511 K St., #600
>     Washington, DC 20005
>     (202) 628-7400

Yeah, the brick people :-) Give them a call if you want to fill up your
sunspace with thermal mass and cripple the performance, while raising
the price dramatically :-) Or if you want your "main heat source" to
provide less than half the heat for your house.

Two views on sunspace design:
 
   It is hard to think of any other system that supplies so much heat
   (to an existing house) at such low cost...
 
   One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
   the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
   virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.
   This can be done by spreading a 2-inch-thick layer of lightweight
   insulation on the floor and north wall of the enclosure and then
   installing a thin black sheet over the insulation. Then, practically
   no heat is delivered to the massive components of floor or wall;
   practically all of the heat is promptly transferred to the air.
   And since the thermal capacity of the 100 or 200 lb. of air in
   the room is equal to that of one fourth as great a mass of water
   (about 25 to 50 lb. of water), the air will heat up very rapidly.
   I estimate that its temperature will rise about 40 F. degrees in about
   two minutes, after the sun comes out from behind a heavy cloud cover.
   At the end of the day, little heat will be "left on base" in the 
   collector floor or north wall and, accordingly, the enclosure will
   cool off very rapidly.
 
     New Inventions in Low Cost Solar Heating--
     100 Daring Schemes Tried and Untried
     by William A. Shurcliff, PhD, Physics, Harvard
     Brick House Publishing, 1979, 293 pages, $12
 
   A sunspace has extensive south-facing glass, so sufficient thermal mass
   is important. Without it, the sunspace is liable to be uncomfortably hot
   during the day, and too cold for plants or people at night.
 
   However, the temperature in the sunspace can vary more than in the
   house itself, so about three square feet of four inch thick thermal
   mass for each square foot of sunspace glazing should be adequate...
 
   The sunspace floor is a good location for thermal mass. The mass floors
   should be dark in color. No more than 15-25% of the floor slab should be
   covered with rugs or plants... Another good location for thermal mass
   is the common wall (the wall separating the sunspace from the rest of
   the house)... Water in various types of containers is another form of
   energy storage often used in sunspaces.
 
     Passive Solar Design Guidelines--
     Guidelines for Homebuilders
     for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
     Passive Solar Industries Council
     National Renewable Energy Laboratory
     Charles Eley Associates 
     Current (1995) edition, 88 pages, $50 
 
So, which is the most energy-efficient sunspace in a partly cloudy climate
like Philadelphia?
 
Shurcliff's plastic film sunspace, wearing the green uniform in this
contest, might cost about $1/ft^2, and on an average December day at 36 F,
it would receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2 of sun, like the PSIC sunspace. Let's
assume that both sunspaces have a perfectly insulated wall between them and
the house, to avoid the thermal disaster of a poorly insulated Trombe wall
in a partly cloudy climate, and let's assume there is no air infiltration
>from  the outside in either case. The sunspace air would be circulated
through the house with some dampers or fans, keeping the sunspace at 80 F,
say, while the house remains at 70 F. With single glazing, about 900
Btu/ft^2 of sun might enter the sunspace during the day, and the amount of
heat lost through a square foot of Shurcliff's sunspace over a typical day
would be about 6 hr (80-36)/R1 = 264 Btu/ft^2/day, for a net gain of 636
Btu/ft^2, ie his $1/ft^2 sunspace would be about 64% efficient, as a solar
collector. A 16' x 32' sunspace like this costing $500, along with a solar
closet containing 20 55 gallon drums full of water, could provide all of
the heat and hot water needed for an attached 32 x 32' two-story house with
an average R20 envelope. As an auxiliary living space, it could be heated
up instantly on some starry night for a party, by moving some warm air from
the house into the sunspace.
 
This sunspace might have a single layer of mylar glazing made by Bayer or
Dow chemical, distributed by Replex or Armin Plastics, stretched over some
curved galvanized pipes, with their curved ends tucked under the south eave
of a two story house. The film might be attached with aluminum extrusion
clamps around the perimeter of the sunspace, with a landscaping timber
foundation, staked to the ground with 4' of #4 rebar. The sunspace might
have a layer of green colored greenhouse shadecloth hanging inside to help
absorb the sun. Opening some vents and hanging the shadecloth over the
outside in summertime would keep the sunspace and house cooler, and prolong
the life of the glazing. The sunspace might have a crushed stone floor over
black polyethylene film, with a shallow reflecting pond in front, made from
a single layer of EPDM rubber draped over a low perimeter earth berm. A
transparent motorized damper in a first floor window would allow house air
to flow into the sunspace, if the sunspace were warmer than 80 F and the
house were cooler than 70 F, and a second floor window fan with a one-way
plastic film damper would move air from the sunspace into the house when
the house needed heat, with the first floor damper open. The fan would also
operate on windy days and nights, perhaps with the downstairs damper
closed, to create a slight vacuum inside the sunspace, to avoid plastic
film fatigue. 
 
The PSIC sunspace, wearing the brown uniform, would perform better with
double glazing. It might cost $10/ft^2, with a 4" concrete thermal mass
with an official PSIC heat capacity of 8.8 Btu//f-ft^2. Say the concrete
absorbs 100% of the sun that falls on it, vs the official PSIC solar
absorptance of 0.65 (table K, page 57.) Then about 800 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
will enter the double glazing and be absorbed by the concrete, and the
concrete surface will warm up the sunspace air, and that warm air can be
used to heat the house when the sunspace temperature is more than 80 F.
Suppose the concrete loses no heat at all to the soil below (I'm giving
quite a few handicaps to the PSIC sunspace in this efficiency race.) The
concrete might start the day at temperature T, and charges up in the sun to
a max temperature of T + dT, and return to temperature T at dawn. How can
we calculate T and dT? The equivalent electrical circuit looks something
like this:
 
                             Ts sunspace temperature
                             |
                      R2     |            D 
       36 F ---------wwww-----------------|-------------------- 70 F
       outdoors      glazing |            open damper to heat   house 
                             w
                             w  R0.5 concrete - sunspace air resistance 
               800 Btu/ft^2  w
                   per day   |
            |      ---       |
          | | ----|-->|------|--Tc concrete temperature
            |      ---       |
               sun current   w
                   source    w  R0.4 concrete bulk thermal resistance
                             w
                             |
                          ------- 26.4 Btu/F thermal mass of concrete
                          -------           
                             |
                            ---
                             -
 
Let's simplify this by assuming the thermal mass of the concrete is
infinite, vs 8.8 Btu/F-ft^2. Lots of concrete, or a water wall, or
something with so much thermal mass that the temperature inside the
sunspace never changes at all from day to night over a long string of
average December days, with some sun. This is an optimal sunspace with more
than "adequate" or "sufficient" thermal mass by official PSIC standards.
Let's also assume that the two small resistors have a value of zero, ie
let's ignore the R0.4 bulk thermal resistance of the concrete, that makes
the surface heat up more than the inside, while the sun is warming it up,
and makes it harder to get heat out of the inside of the concrete and into
the sunspace air, and the R0.5 concrete-sunspace air resistance, by
assuming both are R0 conductors. What will Tc be in that simplified case?
 
The sun shines into the sunspace during the day and adds 800 Btu to our
concrete capacitor, and over 24 hours, 24(Tc-36)1ft^2/R2 = 12 Tc - 432 Btu
flow out of the capacitor. If Ein = Eout (providing no heat for the
attached house), then Tc = (800+432)/12 = 103 F. Pretty nice, but this
sunspace is not providing any heat for the house, just keeping itself warm
on an average day, and losing lots of heat on a cloudy day. Suppose we
allow some heat to flow from the sunspace into the house, ie close the
switch, ie turn on the fan or open the damper between the sunspace and the
house often enough to limit the maximum sunspace temp to 80 F instead of
103 F. Then the heat loss to the outside world over the course of a day is
24(80-36)1 ft^2/R2 = 528 Btu, and the rest of the heat that enters the
double glazing, ie 800 - 528 = 272 Btu/ft^2/day goes into heating the
house, so the solar collection efficiency of this $10/ft^2 sunspace in
terms of useful heat provided for the attached house is 27%. As an
auxiliary living space, the temperature of this sunspace is largely out of
our control. It takes a long time and a lot of house heat to warm it up on
an evening or cloudy day, and after we leave the space, it stays warm for a
long time, giving up precious house heat to the outside world.
 
How curious that by carefully following the current official guidelines of
the Passive Solar Industries Council, we can reduce the performance of
Shurcliff's low-thermal-mass sunspace from 64% to 27%, while increasing the
price from $1/ft^2 to $10/ft^2, unimproving the cost-effectiveness of the
sunspace by a factor of 12, even with all these PSIC-slanted assumptions...
 
Here's a quote from the Acknowlegements section of the PSIC guidelines:  
 
   _Passive Solar Design Strategies: Guidelines for Home Builders_          
   represents over three years of effort by a unique group of organizations 
   and individuals. The challenge of creating an effective design tool that
   could be customized for the specific needs of builders in cities and t   
   towns all over the U. S. called for the talents and experience of        
   specialists in many different areas of expertise.
 
   _Passive Solar Design Strategies_ is based on research sponsored by the
   United States Department of Energy (DOE) Solar Buildings Program, and
   carried out by the Los Alamos National Laboratory, the National          
   Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)... and the Florida Solar Energy       
   Center (FSEC.) 
 
   The National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) Standing Committee on
   Energy has provided invaluable advice and assistance during the
   development of the Guidelines.
 
   Valuable information was drawn from the 14 country International Energy
   Agency (IEA) Solar Heating and Cooling program, Task VII on Passive and
   Hybrid Solar Low Energy Buildings...
 
   Although all the members of PSIC, especially the Technical Committee,
   contributed to the financial and technical support of the Guidelines,
   several contributed far beyond the call of duty. Stephen Szoke, Director
   of National Accounts, National Concrete Masonry Association, Chairman of
   PSIC's Board of Directors during the development of the Guildlines; and
   James Tann, Brick Institute of America, Region 4, Chairman of PSIC's
   Technical Committee during the development of these guidelines... 
   gave unstintingly of their time, their expertise, and their enthusiasm. 
 
>Some of the variables involved in such a design include;

>What is the heat loss rate of your structure?

Yes, that's a good thing to know... "Ohm's law for heatflow"... Note glass
is a very poor insulator... A 30 x 30' x 2 story house with R20 walls and
ceiling might have a thermal conductance of 2000 ft^2/R20 = 100 Btu/hr-F.
Make 10% of the wall area windows by adding 200 ft^2 of R2 glass and this
doubles to 200 Btu/hr per degree F--unless the glass is in a thermally
isolated sunspace, in which case the thermal conductance and heat loss
of the house go down, not up... 

>What is the solar insolation in your area and when does it occur?

Also good to know, eg the amount of sun that falls on a south wall on a
December day, as well as the average temperature in December. If your
house stores heat for several days, these averages are good enough for
design. You don't need to know much more detailed weather data. (Altho
it is very nice to be able to simulate the performance of a house design
easily, hour by hour, over the last 30 years, if you want to do that,
with the NREL/NOAA CD-ROM data.)

>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/solrad/index.html
 
Joe McCabe, PE, lives there :-)

>What are your backup systems (eg, masonry fireplace, ground-source
>heat-pump, etc)?

Ideally none. This is how some people define a "solar house," ie one with
no other form of heat... Simple, no? Such a house can be easily designed
with some high school physics and algebra, as licensed Professional Engineer
Norman Saunders has been doing in cold, cloudy New England since 1944.

Or... you can follow the orthodox Passive Solar Industries guidelines above,
which say that no matter how hard you try, you can't provide more than 41%
of the heat needed for a house in the (warmer, sunnier) Phildelphia area
using the sun, if you fill up your sunspaces with bricks, that is :-)

                     *       *        *

Here's the scoop. The way to do this is simple. Start by finding 3 numbers:

1. Find the heat loss for your house, eg 200 Btu/hr per degree F.

2. Find the average temperature in December where you live, eg 36 F.

3. Find the average amount of sun that falls on a south wall in December
   where you live, eg 1000 Btu/ft^2/day, using NREL's numbers for
   Philadelphia, assuming a little more ground reflection.

Size a low-thermal-mass sunspace to provide 100% of the heat for the house
on an average December day, with some sun. There are several steps here:

4. Find how much heat your house needs on an average December day. If it
   needs, say, 200 Btu/hr/degree F, using "Ohm's law for heatflow," on
   an average 36 F day, it will need 24 hours (70-36) 200 = 163K Btu/day
   to stay at 70 F inside. 

5. Find how much net heat a square foot of low-thermal-mass sunspace can
   gather on an average day where you live. Suppose the sunspace takes
   in 1000 Btu/ft^2/day with R1 single glazing. Then if we let the sunspace
   temperature rise to, say, 80 F during an average 6 hour December day,
   so it can provide warm air to heat the 70 F house, the loss will be about
   6 hours (80-36)1 ft^2/R1 = 264 Btu, for a net gain of 736 Btu/ft^2/day.

6. Size the sunspace glazing. In this case, we need 163K Btu/day divided by 
   736 Btu/ft^2/day, ie 221 ft^2 of low-thermal-mass sunspace. This might be 
   a lean-to sunspace 16' tall and 16' wide and 8' deep, made with 5, 20' long
   curved galvanized pipes on 4' centers, costing $35 each, with some clear
   mylar film costing 10 cents/ft^2 stretched over the pipes and a "foundation"
   consisting of railroad ties ("landscape timbers") spiked to the ground
   with 4' of rebar, with a floor made of black poly film covered with round
   pebbles. Or it might be an "expensive" sunspace made with $80 worth of
   2x6s with some clear single layer polycarbonate plastic costing $1/ft^2,
   or one might just use the clear polycarbonate plastic instead of vinyl
   siding on the south side of the house, as "solar siding." 

7. Size the thermal mass in a solar closet or pure attic warmstore to provide
   heat for the house for a week or so without sun. For 5 days, say, we need
   to store 163K Btu/day x 5 days = 815K Btu of heat. If we use 55 gallon
   drums full of water starting at 130 F, and cooling to 80 F over 5 days,
   each storing 25K Btu of heat, we need 815K/25K = 32 of them, each 3' tall
   by 2' in diameter, tucked away somewhere, receiving the sun thru an inner
   layer of glazing on the back wall of the sunspace, with some insulation
   behind that glazing to make a passive air heater.

8. Other options: add a water heater and 10' of fin tube pipe inside the
   solar closet or warmstore to make domestic hot water, using a little
   more glazing, or add a sauna, or a place to dry clothes...
  
                     *       *        *
		  
There, that wasn't hard, was it? That's how to design an inexpensive 100%
solar house, with no backup heating system, that also makes hot water, just
like Norman Saunders has been doing since 1944...

There are a few more little details to check, but this isn't rocket science,
or even college physics. It's somewhere between figuring out a restaurant tip
and doing a simple beam strength calcualtion, as architects know how to do.

>Do you plan to use a Trombe wall, free-standing thermal mass, floor mass, etc?

Ah yes, you might use a Trombe wall, invented by Felix Trombe in 1964 (and
patented by Edward Morse of Salem, MA, in 1881) or a picture window in the
living room, with a masonry floor in front of that... A "direct loss" house,
like the one architect George F. Keck called a "solar house" in 1934 :-) 

A few years ago, I spent some time explaining to a local architect, a more
technical person than most, who had taken a few engineering courses on the
way to architecting, that a "Trombe wall" with some insulation on the outside
and some passive plastic film dampers to the inside of the house, that
opened up during the day, was probably a lot more efficient at collecting and
keeping solar heat in the house than a plain old "traditional" Trombe wall,
with masonry right behind the glass, with no insulation. Here's what I said:

  A "Trombe wall" with insulation on the outside, and 1 square foot of South-
  facing single-glazed area and an R-value of 20, will receive about 1000
  Btu/day of heat on an average 32F December day, where I live. If the room
  behind it has a constant temp of 70F, and the sun shines 6 hours a day,
  on the average, the energy that leaks out of the glass will be about 6 hours
  x (70F-32F) x 1 ft^2/R1 = 228 Btu during the day, and 18 hours x (70-32) x
  1 ft^2/R20 = 34 Btu at night, a net gain of 1000 -228 -34 = 738 Btu/day.
  Simple, no? (750 Btu, net, with double glazing, which passes less sun.)

  A standard unvented Trombe wall (Table IV-14b of Mazria's book says vented
  ones don't work much better) with a very large uninsulated thermal mass
  right behind the glass and an R-value of, say 2 (roughly 1' of masonry),
  would have an average temperature at the outside wall surface of about
  32F + R1 x (70F-32F)/(R2+R1) = 45F, if there were no sun. If you add a
  heatflow of 1000 Btu/day of sun to that model, falling on the outside
  of the wall, the outside wall surface will have an average temperature
  of about 45F + 1000/24 x (R=2/3) = 72.4F, which contributes 24 hours x
  (72.4F- 70F) x 1 ft^2/R2 = 29 Btu/day to the room behind the wall.

  So the "improved Trombe wall" above, (actually an air heater with the
  thermal storage inside the house) is more than ***25 times*** as efficient
  (738/29) at collecting and keeping heat in the room behind it, than
  the usual Trombe wall. This is somewhat oversimplified, of course...

And do you know what the architect said? "I agree with you completely, but
if you do that, you will violate the integrity of the traditional Trombe wall,
which has a magical, wonderful way of *flywheeling*, and transporting the
heat through the wall, so it is available at the other side *precisely* when
it is needed, the next morning!" And he went on and on about this conceptual
delight, this conceit, completely ignoring numerical performance... :-)

Trombe walls are also thermal disasters during long strings of cloudy days.
When the sun goes in for a week or two, they lose their stored heat in less
than a day, and then leak house heat badly, dramatically raising backup
heat or other solar thermal storage requirements.

I'm amazed that so many people, even in these newgroups, are still so
interested in Trombe walls, or their passive solar equivalents, like
direct gain houses or high-thermal mass sunspaces. A lot of people are
apparently still willing to settle for high-cost, low-performance passive
solar house heating techniques, that get them a 30% yearly savings in backup
space heating costs over a 20 year payback period, vs. warmstores, solar
closets, sunspaces and transparent siding, which really can save close to 100%
of the space heating energy needed for a house AND provide close to 100% of
the hot water needed for a house, as well.

>You'll find water is far and away the highest-capacity, non-phase change
>storage medium, in the form of freestanding tanks...

Agreed.

>How do you plan to provide for effective daylighting while preventing glare?

How about skylights with reflective south-facing sunscoops over the top?

Or a transparent steep south roof with some reflective motorized dampers
in the insulated attic floor, or a bubble-ceiling?

>I'm presently looking for windows that block UV radiation...

You would want to look for windows made out of glass, or polycarbonate
plastic with a UV light transmission of less than 1%...

>but are not low-E (because of the amount of infrared radiation they block). 

You seem to be seriously confused, Will. For solar heating, blocking IR is
GOOD, as is passing visible light... Window glass and polycarbonate plastic
pass 85% of the solar radiation between 380 and 2,000 nanometers (the sun
being like a 10,000 degree F black body) and block more than 98% of the IR
re-radiation between 4,000 and 10,000 nanometers from an 80 F room. This
"greenhouse effect" has been around long before ozone concerns.

>UV will fade furniture

Something fades furniture next to south-facing windows... Is it the visible
light or the heat or the tiny amoutn of UV that gets through the glass? 
At any rate, an intelligently-designed solar home (not yours, apparently)
will not have a lot of glass opening into the living space.

>and increase skin cancer likelihood.

I doubt you would ever get skin cancer with glass between you and the sun.

>I am in the middle of a similar design effort myself, and a utilizing the
>designs of a modular home manufacturer that has participated with DOE
>on this subject (see Solar Today, Sept/Oct 1995).

Kurt Smith at Avis? :-) He should know how to design better solar houses
by now... DOE also sponsored the Passive Solar Industry Council Guidelines.
Perhaps we should abolish them, if they continue to do more harm than good.

>If anybody has any additional info, I'd be interested as well.

I'm trying to help you...

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, residential
solar heating and cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member,
IEEE. Registered US Patent Agent. Fluent in French.



From wstewart@patriot.net Sat May 11 09:10:23 EDT 1996
Article: 758 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vistachrome.com!news.supernet.net!vivaldi.inoc.dl.nec.com!jpgate.inoc.sj.nec.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 08:14:25 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <31909021.1F8A@patriot.net>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-1.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:6909 alt.solar.thermal:758

george p swanton wrote:
> 
> Can anyone offer a pointer to a set of formulae for glazing/
> mass/temperature/etc calculations involved in passive solar
> design? I am interested primarily in direct gain residential
> space heating applications.
> 
> I've searched some of the web sites that claim 'passive solar'
> info but have only found pretty pictures and sweeping
> generalizations with no mathematical analysis.

These calculations are somewhat complex, if you are considering passive solar as your 
main heat source.  The Passive Solar Industries Council has a complete book and software 
program for this engineering problem.

     Passive Solar Industries Council
     1511 K St., #600
     Washington, DC 20005
     (202) 628-7400

You may have visited here already, but 
http://www.greenbuilder.com/Sourcebook/PassSolGuide1-2.html gives a lot of overall 
design clues.

Some of the variables involved in such a design include;

What is your heating profile and when does it occur?
In other words, how many degree-days of heating is required in your area?

What is the heat loss rate of your structure?  Even landscaping comes in to play here, 
such as berming, evergreens planted to the north to act as  nothern wind breakers, etc.

What is the solar insolation in your area and when does it occur?
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/solrad/index.html

What are your backup systems (eg, masonry fireplace, ground-source heat-pump, etc)?

Do you plan to use a Trombe wall, free-standing thermal mass, floor mass, etc?  You'll 
find water is far and away the highest-capacity, non-phase change storage medium, in the 
form of freestanding tanks (wall-shaped or cylindrical).

How do you plan to provide for effective daylighting while preventing glare?  I'm 
presently looking for windows that block UV radiation but are not low-E (because of the 
amount of infrared radiation they block).  UV will fade furniture and increase skin 
cancer likelihood.

I am in the middle of a similar design effort myself, and a utilizing the designs of a 
modular home manufacturer that has participated with DOE on this subject (see Solar 
Today, Sept/Oct 1995).

If anybody has any additional info, I'd be interested as well.

Regards,

Will Stewart


From thermomax@softaid.net Sat May 11 09:10:23 EDT 1996
Article: 759 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!sis2.softaid.net!usenet
From: thermomax@softaid.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating?
Date: 7 May 1996 15:24:18 GMT
Organization: Thermomax, Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector, Tel: USA (410) 997-0778
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <4mnpv2$gjq@sis2.softaid.net>
References: <318D6BA0.6852@nmia.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: thermomax.softaid.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   Bill Cochrell <cochrell@nmia.com> writes:
>  Who? Where? wrote:
>  > 
>  > Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
>  > heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
>  > never a problem....just how to best utilize it.
>  
>  Sounds like you are in a latitude that is a prime candidate for a batch 
>  water heater. There is more info on this page:
>  http://www.rt66.com/aaasolar/passive.htm
>  
>  Good Luck -- Bill
>  
>>>>


Visit the Thermomax home page at:

http://www.thermomax.com/thermomax/

The Thermomax Solar Water heating technology is the most developed of all 
renewable energy systems. A Thermomax solar water heating system can provide a 
large portion of household hot water demand depending on local climate 
conditions and the size of system. 

Thermomax collector tube is a closed chamber (Heat Pipe) consisting of a small 
amount of heat transfer liquid (Methanol). The heat pipe employs an 
evaporating-condensing cycle, absorbing heat from the Sun, using this heat to 
evaporate the liquid (latent heat) and then releasing latent heat by reverse 
transformation (condensation) at a heat sink. Thermomax collector tube has
inherent protection from freezing or overheating, a common problem with all 
"flat-plate" collector. The collector efficiency remains high even at low light, 
so output is directly related to total global radiation from the sky, and is 
predictable.

The solar space heating operates like a radian heating system. A double coil 
tank (a water tank with two heat exchangers) serves as water heater and heat 
distributor. Through a circulation pump and first coil the solar energy heats 
the water in the tank. A thermostat calls for heat in a particular zone and the 
thermal energy is delivered through the second coil. The water in the tank
provides the household hot water demand.  

Energy requirement to heat a swimming pool depends on the surface area of the 
pool. In general you may need one Thermomax tube for every 3-5 sq. ft. pool 
surface. You may consider combining the pool heating and space heating together.

If you need design/engineering specifications or installation suggestions, 
please do not hesitate to contact any of our offices. We value your business and 
welcome every opportunity to prove it.

Sincerely,


Dr. F. Mahjouri, PE
President
Thermomax USA



******************************************************************************
Thermomax Evacuated Heat Pipe Solar Collector
"Worldwide Leadership in Solar Heating System"
Home Page: http://www.thermomax.com/thermomax/
e-mail: info@thermomax.com
Phone: USA (410) 997-0778
Fax: USA (410) 997-0779
USA Offices:
6193 Wooded Run Drive
Columbia, MD 21044
USA
******************************************************************************





From sovran@inforamp.net Sat May 11 09:10:23 EDT 1996
Article: 760 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.nstn.ca!news.inforamp.net!ts64-10
From: sovran@inforamp.net (Nigel Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar on the Road...
Date: 9 May 1996 01:40:37 GMT
Organization: Sovran
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4mriel$c1i@news.inforamp.net>
References: <4lst3c$83k@news.wco.com> <4lt6iq$frm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4m7nn1$dfh@recepsen.aa.msen.com> <4mklth$b8p@news.hal-pc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts64-10.tor.istar.ca
Keywords: Solar Recreational Vehicle
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49108 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1261 alt.energy.renewable:15157 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6633 alt.solar.thermal:760

In article <4mklth$b8p@news.hal-pc.org>, toml@hal-pc.org wrote:
>csi@mail.msen.com (AI Group) wrote:
>
>>: 
>>: >      I've been working on a somewhat interesting project 
lately...
>>: 
>>I would like to set up solar panels on top of my Pop up camper.  Any 
>>suggestions?
>
>>Would it be practical to buy some of the small ones and connect them 
in 
>>series to increase the wattage enough to charge the 12 v battery 
that runs 
>>the inverter?
>>Henry
>>csi@msen.com
>
>There is a company that produces solar charging systems for RVs. I 
had
>a catalogue a few years ago. Don't remember the name but someone else
>might.
>
>
It is indeed quite possible and feasible to mount solar panels on your 
RV and use them to charge your battery.  We produce a number of kits 
specifically for use on RV's.  You can find further information on our 
home page http://www.sovran.ca/~sovran.  Feel free to e-mail us if you 
have any specific questions.


From pats@sco.com Sat May 11 09:10:24 EDT 1996
Article: 761 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hobbes.sco.COM!hobbes.sco.com!pats
From: pats@sco.com (Patrick Salsbury)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: UV window glazing without Low E
Date: 09 May 1996 00:09:17 GMT
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <PATS.96May8170918@fnord.sco.com>
References: <318F8597.4B28@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnord.pdev.sco.com
In-reply-to: William R Stewart's message of Tue, 07 May 1996 13:17:11 -0400

In article <318F8597.4B28@patriot.net> William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> writes:

-From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
-Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
-Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 13:17:11 -0400
-
-Does anybody know of a window supplier that sells windows with only the
-UV protection?  I am in the final decision stages for a passive solar 
-house design and I want to protect my family and furniture from the 
-harmful effects of UV radiation without the penalty of reduced 
-insolation through the windows, which low-E would impose.
-
-Thanks,
-
-Will Stewart

	If I'm not mistaken, ALL windows provide UV shielding. UV doesn't pass
through glass. No extra glazing needed. If you're not looking for some sort of
IR protection or anything like that, then a single pane of standard glass will
probably do the trick.

	Anyone care to confirm or deny this?

--
Pat
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	  Patrick Salsbury 	                            SCO
	Voice: 408-427-7076	                     400 Encinal Street 
        email: pats@sco.com		            Santa Cruz, CA 95060
  http://seneca.sco.com/pat.html		     FAX: 408-429-1887


From wstewart@patriot.net Sat May 11 09:10:25 EDT 1996
Article: 762 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating?
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 07:05:09 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <31907FE5.4B39@patriot.net>
References: <4mh57d$emi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-1.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

Who? Where? wrote:
> 
> Could anyone please tell where I can obtain information re: solar water
> heating.  I live in South Texas, and having ENOUGH solar energy is
> never a problem....just how to best utilize it.

For a list of links on solar, visit 
http://www.eren.doe.gov/RE/solar.html

You are correct about having plenty of solar in Texas; a solar hot water 
system is perfect for this area.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Sat May 11 09:10:26 EDT 1996
Article: 763 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,pa.environment,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 08:34:31 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 269
Message-ID: <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <31909021.1F8A@patriot.net> <4mqir7$egq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-4.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:6917 alt.energy.renewable:15163 sci.energy:49127 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6649 alt.solar.thermal:763 alt.home.repair:23825 sci.environment:93615

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >george p swanton wrote:
> >>
> >> Can anyone offer a pointer to a set of formulae for glazing/
> >> mass/temperature/etc calculations involved in passive solar
> >> design? I am interested primarily in direct gain residential
> >> space heating applications.
> >
> >These calculations are somewhat complex, if you are considering passive
> >solar as your main heat source.  The Passive Solar Industries Council
> >has a complete book and software program for this engineering problem.
> >
> >     Passive Solar Industries Council
> >     1511 K St., #600
> >     Washington, DC 20005
> >     (202) 628-7400
> 
> Yeah, the brick people :-) Give them a call if you want to fill up your
> sunspace with thermal mass and cripple the performance, while raising
> the price dramatically :-)

Thermal storage does not 'cripple' the performance of a sunspace, it simply evens out the temperature 
swings.  Brick is only one of several materials that can be utilized, including even water.

> Or if you want your "main heat source" to
> provide less than half the heat for your house.

You would have to provide the figures to support your assertion, as I have seen passive solar homes where 
solar provided in excess of 85% of the heating requirements.

[199th repost of solar closet deleted]

> Two views on sunspace design:
> 
>    It is hard to think of any other system that supplies so much heat
>    (to an existing house) at such low cost...
> 
>    One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
>    the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
>    virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.

So that energy isn't stored for the evening and night hours?  A mistake of some early passive solar 
designs.

>    This can be done by spreading a 2-inch-thick layer of lightweight
>    insulation on the floor and north wall of the enclosure and then
>    installing a thin black sheet over the insulation. Then, practically
>    no heat is delivered to the massive components of floor or wall;
>    practically all of the heat is promptly transferred to the air.
>    And since the thermal capacity of the 100 or 200 lb. of air in
>    the room is equal to that of one fourth as great a mass of water
>    (about 25 to 50 lb. of water), the air will heat up very rapidly.
>    I estimate that its temperature will rise about 40 F. degrees in about
>    two minutes, after the sun comes out from behind a heavy cloud cover.
>    At the end of the day, little heat will be "left on base" in the
>    collector floor or north wall and, accordingly, the enclosure will
>    cool off very rapidly.

I fail to see the advantage of such a system; what do you do for heat at night?

>      New Inventions in Low Cost Solar Heating--
>      100 Daring Schemes Tried and Untried
>      by William A. Shurcliff, PhD, Physics, Harvard
>      Brick House Publishing, 1979, 293 pages, $12
> 
>    A sunspace has extensive south-facing glass, so sufficient thermal mass
>    is important. Without it, the sunspace is liable to be uncomfortably hot
>    during the day, and too cold for plants or people at night.

Just the opposite of what you state above.

>    However, the temperature in the sunspace can vary more than in the
>    house itself, so about three square feet of four inch thick thermal
>    mass for each square foot of sunspace glazing should be adequate...

How did you arrive at that size?  And what material would you use for the thermal mass, as energy 
capacities vary widely?

>    The sunspace floor is a good location for thermal mass. The mass floors
>    should be dark in color. 

Like brick?  :-)

No more than 15-25% of the floor slab should be
>    covered with rugs or plants... Another good location for thermal mass
>    is the common wall (the wall separating the sunspace from the rest of
>    the house)... Water in various types of containers is another form of
>    energy storage often used in sunspaces.

Yes, a water wall is an effective thermal storage device.
 
>      Passive Solar Design Guidelines--
>      Guidelines for Homebuilders
>      for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
>      Passive Solar Industries Council
>      National Renewable Energy Laboratory
>      Charles Eley Associates
>      Current (1995) edition, 88 pages, $50
> 
> So, which is the most energy-efficient sunspace in a partly cloudy climate
> like Philadelphia? 
> Shurcliff's plastic film sunspace, wearing the green uniform in this
> contest, might cost about $1/ft^2, and on an average December day at 36 F,
> it would receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2 of sun, like the PSIC sunspace. Let's
> assume that both sunspaces have a perfectly insulated wall between them and
> the house, to avoid the thermal disaster of a poorly insulated Trombe wall
> in a partly cloudy climate, and let's assume there is no air infiltration
> from the outside in either case.

Two major assumptions that are unacceptable in a real world situation, especially the lack of air 
infiltration.  That would negate the benefits of an air storage attempt in a sunspace.
[deletion]

> >Some of the variables involved in such a design include;
> 
> >What is the heat loss rate of your structure?
> 
> Yes, that's a good thing to know... "Ohm's law for heatflow"... Note glass
> is a very poor insulator... A 30 x 30' x 2 story house with R20 walls and
> ceiling might have a thermal conductance of 2000 ft^2/R20 = 100 Btu/hr-F.
> Make 10% of the wall area windows by adding 200 ft^2 of R2 glass and this
> doubles to 200 Btu/hr per degree F--unless the glass is in a thermally
> isolated sunspace, in which case the thermal conductance and heat loss
> of the house go down, not up...

Try using R4 windows with window quilts for even more night insolation.  And the sunspace you refer to 
with mylar windows will have less than an R1 rating, so energy retention in the sunspace, including air 
infiltration, will be negligent.
 
> >What is the solar insolation in your area and when does it occur?
> 
> Also good to know, eg the amount of sun that falls on a south wall on a
> December day, as well as the average temperature in December. If your
> house stores heat for several days, these averages are good enough for
> design. 

This is a little over-general, as passive solar mistakes have borne out in the past.

> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/solrad/index.html 
> >What are your backup systems (eg, masonry fireplace, ground-source
> >heat-pump, etc)?
> 
> Ideally none. This is how some people define a "solar house," ie one with
> no other form of heat... Simple, no? Such a house can be easily designed
> with some high school physics and algebra, as licensed Professional Engineer
> Norman Saunders has been doing in cold, cloudy New England since 1944.

Again, the specifics of the weather play an important role, because if you have 6 days of cloudy or rainy 
weather in January, then you will freeze without supplementary heating of some form.

> Here's the scoop. The way to do this is simple. Start by finding 3 numbers:
> 
> 1. Find the heat loss for your house, eg 200 Btu/hr per degree F.

A fairly well-insulated house.

> 2. Find the average temperature in December where you live, eg 36 F. 
> 3. Find the average amount of sun that falls on a south wall in December
>    where you live, eg 1000 Btu/ft^2/day, using NREL's numbers for
>    Philadelphia, assuming a little more ground reflection.

>From  http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad , we get 2.9 kWh/m2/day for a vertical wall surface in 
Philedelphia in December.

Out of "Principles of Solar Engineering", Kreith/Kreider, we find for 40o north latitude;
Dec 21, we find 702 BTUH/ft2 for an ideal day, with no overcast or other insolation impediment.

> Size a low-thermal-mass sunspace to provide 100% of the heat for the house
> on an average December day, with some sun. There are several steps here: 
> 4. Find how much heat your house needs on an average December day. If it
>    needs, say, 200 Btu/hr/degree F, using "Ohm's law for heatflow," on
>    an average 36 F day, it will need 24 hours (70-36) 200 = 163K Btu/day
>    to stay at 70 F inside.

> 5. Find how much net heat a square foot of low-thermal-mass sunspace can
>    gather on an average day where you live. Suppose the sunspace takes
>    in 1000 Btu/ft^2/day with R1 single glazing. Then if we let the sunspace
>    temperature rise to, say, 80 F during an average 6 hour December day,
>    so it can provide warm air to heat the 70 F house, the loss will be about
>    6 hours (80-36)1 ft^2/R1 = 264 Btu, for a net gain of 736 Btu/ft^2/day.

What is the surface area of the sunspace?  It wouldn't be identical to the floor square footage, or else 
you would have the typical solar collector.  I would estimate you would have roughly 3 times the surface 
area to floor space ratio, at a minimum.  That makes an enormous difference in your calculations.  And 
don't forget air infiltration.

> There are a few more little details to check, but this isn't rocket science,
> or even college physics. 

You need to construct one, collect data, and provide empirical results.  Otherwise, there are a lot of 
loose ends for you to tie up in the mean time.
 
> >Do you plan to use a Trombe wall, free-standing thermal mass, floor mass, etc?
> 
> Ah yes, you might use a Trombe wall, invented by Felix Trombe in 1964 (and
> patented by Edward Morse of Salem, MA, in 1881) or a picture window in the
> living room, with a masonry floor in front of that... A "direct loss" house,
> like the one architect George F. Keck called a "solar house" in 1934 :-)

You are making specious claims.  Trombe wall effectiveness has been proven with empirical data. 

> And do you know what the architect said? "I agree with you completely, but
> if you do that, you will violate the integrity of the traditional Trombe wall,
> which has a magical, wonderful way of *flywheeling*, and transporting the
> heat through the wall, so it is available at the other side *precisely* when
> it is needed, the next morning!" And he went on and on about this conceptual
> delight, this conceit, completely ignoring numerical performance... :-)

Perhaps you should have listened to his argument for a change.  

> I'm amazed that so many people, even in these newgroups, are still so
> interested in Trombe walls, or their passive solar equivalents, like
> direct gain houses or high-thermal mass sunspaces. 

What you have described is a direct gain air collector with no thermal mass for storage.

>A lot of people are
> apparently still willing to settle for high-cost, low-performance passive
> solar house heating techniques, that get them a 30% yearly savings in backup
> space heating costs over a 20 year payback period, vs. warmstores, solar
> closets, sunspaces and transparent siding, which really can save close to 100%
> of the space heating energy needed for a house AND provide close to 100% of
> the hot water needed for a house, as well.

You make these claims yet provide no empirical data to back them up.  When you construct such a system 
and it performs to the satisfaction of the occupants, then show us the data and we will examine it.  
Until then, you need to fix a number of oversights in your calculations.
 
 
> >How do you plan to provide for effective daylighting while preventing glare?
> 
> How about skylights with reflective south-facing sunscoops over the top?

What are the R-values?  How many lumens do they provide?  What do you do when you have day lighting 
requirement in the basement and 1st floor of a two-story building?
 
> >I'm presently looking for windows that block UV radiation...
> >but are not low-E (because of the amount of infrared radiation they block).
> 
> You seem to be seriously confused, Will. For solar heating, blocking IR is
> GOOD, as is passing visible light... 

I don't want to block incoming infrared, which the low-E glazings do.  Check the stats for window 
comparisons at the NREL site.

> >UV will fade furniture 
> Something fades furniture next to south-facing windows... Is it the visible
> light or the heat or the tiny amoutn of UV that gets through the glass?
> At any rate, an intelligently-designed solar home (not yours, apparently)
> will not have a lot of glass opening into the living space.

You imply that I am not intelligent, but I will simply reply that you need to consider yourself first 
before making such a statement.

> >I am in the middle of a similar design effort myself, and a utilizing the
> >designs of a modular home manufacturer that has participated with DOE
> >on this subject (see Solar Today, Sept/Oct 1995).
> 
> Kurt Smith at Avis? :-) He should know how to design better solar houses
> by now... DOE also sponsored the Passive Solar Industry Council Guidelines.
> Perhaps we should abolish them, if they continue to do more harm than good.

You need to make a *much* better case first.
 
Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sat May 11 09:10:26 EDT 1996
Article: 764 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,pa.environment,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Followup-To: misc.test
Date: 9 May 1996 14:55:07 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 426
Message-ID: <4mtf2b$36o@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <31909021.1F8A@patriot.net> <4mqir7$egq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: another pie for your face? :-)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:6919 alt.energy.renewable:15168 sci.energy:49163 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6671 alt.solar.thermal:764 alt.home.repair:23847 sci.environment:93653

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >... if you are considering passive solar as your main heat source.
>> >The Passive Solar Industries Council has a complete book and software
>> >program for this engineering problem.
>> >
>> >     Passive Solar Industries Council
>> >     1511 K St., #600
>> >     Washington, DC 20005
>> >     (202) 628-7400
>> 
>> Yeah, the brick people :-) Give them a call if you want to fill up your
>> sunspace with thermal mass and cripple the performance, while raising
>> the price dramatically :-)
>
>Thermal storage does not 'cripple' the performance of a sunspace,

I disagree. This basic high school physics is now well-understood, being
over 300 years old, invented by Newton and others. In rhetoric, an assertion
demands no more than a counterassertion. I've gone beyond that already.
You have my numbers. Where are your numbers, Will?

>it simply evens out the temperature swings.

That it does, but that's not all it does. It also stores lots of solar heat
during the day, most of which radiates back out thru the sunspace glazing
at night, since that is a poor insulator. Again, this is simple physics.

>Brick is only one of several materials that can be utilized,
>including even water.

Less delightful for the brick people, no doubt :-)

>> Or if you want your "main heat source" to
>> provide less than half the heat for your house.
>
>You would have to provide the figures to support your assertion,

I'm confused here, Will. Or perhaps you are. I said that there are a number
of houses in the US that are 100% solar heated, with no backup heating
systems at all, some of which have long track records, in cloudier, colder
places than Philadelphia. I also said that if you carefully follow the
orthodox PSIC "Passive Solar Design Strategies: Guidelines for Home
Builders," you will end up with a house in the Philadelphia area that is
no more than 41% solar heated (see the 13th line on the right hand side
of the table on page 31 of those guidelines.) This PSIC target seems
surprisingly low, given all these solar houses with no other form of heat.

>...I have seen passive solar homes where solar provided in excess of
>85% of the heating requirements.

So have I. But they were not built using those rotten PSIC guidelines.

>[199th repost of solar closet deleted]

Perhaps you should read it and understand it once, Will, instead of just
deleting it over and over... :-)

>> Two views on sunspace design:
>> 
>>    It is hard to think of any other system that supplies so much heat
>>    (to an existing house) at such low cost...
>> 
>>    One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
>>    the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
>>    virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.
>
>So that energy isn't stored for the evening and night hours?

Correct. No heat lost via the sunspace at night, because the heat is
stored elsewhere. This is Bill Shurcliff, PhD, physics, talking...

>>    This can be done by spreading a 2-inch-thick layer of lightweight
>>    insulation on the floor and north wall of the enclosure and then
>>    installing a thin black sheet over the insulation. Then, practically
>>    no heat is delivered to the massive components of floor or wall;
>>    practically all of the heat is promptly transferred to the air.
>>    And since the thermal capacity of the 100 or 200 lb. of air in
>>    the room is equal to that of one fourth as great a mass of water
>>    (about 25 to 50 lb. of water), the air will heat up very rapidly.
>>    I estimate that its temperature will rise about 40 F. degrees in about
>>    two minutes, after the sun comes out from behind a heavy cloud cover.
>>    At the end of the day, little heat will be "left on base" in the
>>    collector floor or north wall and, accordingly, the enclosure will
>>    cool off very rapidly.
>
>I fail to see the advantage of such a system;
>what do you do for heat at night?

A solar closet, an attic warmstore, a rock bin, massy house walls,
an indoor pool, concrete furniture, a 5 year supply of Diet Coke, etc.

>>    A sunspace has extensive south-facing glass, so sufficient thermal mass
>>    is important. Without it, the sunspace is liable to be uncomfortably hot
>>    during the day, and too cold for plants or people at night.
>
>Just the opposite of what you state above.

Right. I'm quoting the PSIC brick people here, not Bill Shurcliff, PhD,
physics, Harvard prof and author of a dozen or so well-respected books
on solar heating. Bill Shurcliff does not sell bricks :-)

>>    However, the temperature in the sunspace can vary more than in the
>>    house itself, so about three square feet of four inch thick thermal
>>    mass for each square foot of sunspace glazing should be adequate...
>
>How did you arrive at that size?

I didn't. The brick and concrete people did. I found this pearl of wisdom
on page 27 of my Philadelphia PSIC Guidelines.

>And what material would you use for the thermal mass, as energy 
>capacities vary widely?

I would use sealed containers of water myself, but I would not put them in
a sunspace. I'd keep them somewhere inside the house, ideally above room 
temperature inside a solar closet, where they wouldn't lose all of their
heat overnight or during a week without sun to the outside world thru the
glazing, which is a good heat conductor. I'd let the sunspace itself get
icy cold very quickly at night, so it loses little heat.

>>    The sunspace floor is a good location for thermal mass. The mass floors
>>    should be dark in color. 
>
>Like brick?  :-)

Sure, if you sell bricks :-)

>>    No more than 15-25% of the floor slab should be
>>    covered with rugs or plants... Another good location for thermal mass
>>    is the common wall (the wall separating the sunspace from the rest of
>>    the house)... Water in various types of containers is another form of
>>    energy storage often used in sunspaces.
>
>Yes, a water wall is an effective thermal storage device.

It is indeed, if it has insulation between itself and the outside world.
  
>> So, which is the most energy-efficient sunspace in a partly cloudy climate
>> like Philadelphia? 

>> Shurcliff's plastic film sunspace, wearing the green uniform in this
>> contest, might cost about $1/ft^2, and on an average December day at 36 F,
>> it would receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2 of sun, like the PSIC sunspace. Let's
>> assume that both sunspaces have a perfectly insulated wall between them and
>> the house, to avoid the thermal disaster of a poorly insulated Trombe wall
>> in a partly cloudy climate, and let's assume there is no air infiltration
>> from the outside in either case.
>
>Two major assumptions that are unacceptable in a real world situation,
>especially the lack of air infiltration.

OK, put in an imperfectly insulated wall, say R20, and some air infiltration,
eg 2 air changes per hour. The results hardly change at all. Trust me, I know
what I'm doing. I won't bore you with those details.

>That would negate the benefits of an air storage attempt in a sunspace.

Nobody's trying to store heat in air... (?)

>> >Some of the variables involved in such a design include;
>> 
>> >What is the heat loss rate of your structure?
>> 
>> Yes, that's a good thing to know... "Ohm's law for heatflow"... Note glass
>> is a very poor insulator... A 30 x 30' x 2 story house with R20 walls and
>> ceiling might have a thermal conductance of 2000 ft^2/R20 = 100 Btu/hr-F.
>> Make 10% of the wall area windows by adding 200 ft^2 of R2 glass and this
>> doubles to 200 Btu/hr per degree F--unless the glass is in a thermally
>> isolated sunspace, in which case the thermal conductance and heat loss
>> of the house go down, not up...
>
>Try using R4 windows with window quilts for even more night insolation.

R4 is poor, compared to a wall. And try using the word "insolation" for sun,
and "insulation" for heatflow. And recall that people don't use manual movable
insulation for long. They get tired of operating it. Nobody seems to have
come up with good, simple, cheap, automatically-movable window insulation,
after all these years. For one thing, it's not easy to seal the edges. 

>And the sunspace you refer to with mylar windows will have less than an
>R1 rating, so energy retention in the sunspace, including air infiltration,
>will be negligent.

For starters, I guess you mean "negligible" instead of "negligent" (as in
"The great American colonial composer William Billings was said to be
'a man of uncommon negligence,' since he spent a lot of time in the gutters
of Portsmouth.") More substantively, air infiltration should be minimal in
a sunspace made with a very large piece of plastic film, and I assume that
by "energy retention" you mean something having to do with solar collection
efficiency, not heat storage... I can't find very complete information about
the thermal resistance of Mylar (polyester) film in my greenhouse engineering
book, perhaps because it has not been used for a long time in greenhouses,
but it does say that Mylar has an IR transmittance of 30%, vs 50% at the
same temp for R0.8 polyethyene film, so it must be at least R0.8. So instead
of a loss of 6 hr (80-36)1 ft^2/R1 = 264 Btu/ft^2 for a 74% solar collection
efficiency of a single-layer glass sunspace in the Phildaelphia area, we
might have a loss of 330 Btu/ft^2/day and a solar collection efficiency of
67%, so we would need a few more square feet of sunspace glazing. No big deal,
at 10 cents/ft^2 (?)

>> >What is the solar insolation in your area and when does it occur?
>> 
>> Also good to know, eg the amount of sun that falls on a south wall on a
>> December day, as well as the average temperature in December. If your
>> house stores heat for several days, these averages are good enough for
>> design. 
>
>This is a little over-general, as passive solar mistakes
>have borne out in the past.

I disagree. I've posted some detailed computer simulations that prove this.
Perhaps you would like me to email you a 262,980 line solar simulation for
such a house using hourly NREL data for the last 30 years.
 
>> >What are your backup systems (eg, masonry fireplace, ground-source
>> >heat-pump, etc)?
>> 
>> Ideally none. This is how some people define a "solar house," ie one with
>> no other form of heat... Simple, no? Such a house can be easily designed
>> with some high school physics and algebra, as licensed Professional Engineer
>> Norman Saunders has been doing in cold, cloudy New England since 1944.
>
>Again, the specifics of the weather play an important role, because
>if you have 6 days of cloudy or rainy weather in January, then you will
>freeze without supplementary heating of some form.

I don't think you will freeze, but you might have to put on a sweater every
35 years or so, the way Norman Saunders, PE, calculates these events, on a
statistical basis, like 100 year floods... Of course one can never build a
"100% solar house," as you say, because no matter how much thermal storage
a house has, Mother Nature will eventually supply a string of cold cloudy
days that exhaust it, and the house temp may dip to 67 or 66 F (horrors!)
despite our best laid plans. My best laid plans might include a simple solar
house simulation based on hourly local NREL/NOAA data for the last 30 years.
It seems to me that most people would be happy over the next 30 years if
their house would not have needed any backup heat for the last 30 years...  

>> Here's the scoop. The way to do this is simple. Start by finding 3 numbers:
>> 
>> 1. Find the heat loss for your house, eg 200 Btu/hr per degree F.
>
>A fairly well-insulated house.

True. And why not. As Steve Baer says, the greatest discovery of solar
investigators has been that if you use lots and lots of insulation, a
house will need very little heat, from the sun or any other source. However,
insulation does cost money, and it doesn't make hot water. Perhaps future
houses will have more glazing and thermal mass and less insulation. Perhaps
not. Perhaps they will have backup heating systems, perhaps not. This is
a matter of economics, inter alia. But, there will always be purists, sailors
who like to sail boats without motors, and heroic natural homeowners...

>> 2. Find the average temperature in December where you live, eg 36 F. 
>> 3. Find the average amount of sun that falls on a south wall in December
>>    where you live, eg 1000 Btu/ft^2/day, using NREL's numbers for
>>    Philadelphia, assuming a little more ground reflection.
>
>From http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad , we get 2.9 kWh/m2/day
>for a vertical wall surface in Philedelphia in December.

Fine.

>Out of "Principles of Solar Engineering", Kreith/Kreider, we find for 40o
>north latitude; Dec 21, we find 702 BTUH/ft2 for an ideal day, with no
>overcast or other insolation impediment.

That sounds more like an average day, not an ideal day, especially since
you mention the latitude. Your 2.9 kWh/m^2/day NREL number (919 Btu/ft^2/day)
with a built-in 0.2 ground reflectivity is probably more accurate for an
average day... Either one can be improved with something more reflective
lying on the ground in front, eg snow or ice with a 0.6 reflectivity. .   

>> Size a low-thermal-mass sunspace to provide 100% of the heat for the house
>> on an average December day, with some sun. There are several steps here: 

>> 4. Find how much heat your house needs on an average December day. If it
>>    needs, say, 200 Btu/hr/degree F, using "Ohm's law for heatflow," on
>>    an average 36 F day, it will need 24 hours (70-36) 200 = 163K Btu/day
>>    to stay at 70 F inside.
>
>> 5. Find how much net heat a square foot of low-thermal-mass sunspace can
>>    gather on an average day where you live. Suppose the sunspace takes
>>    in 1000 Btu/ft^2/day with R1 single glazing. Then if we let the sunspace
>>    temperature rise to, say, 80 F during an average 6 hour December day,
>>    so it can provide warm air to heat the 70 F house, the loss will be about
>>    6 hours (80-36)1 ft^2/R1 = 264 Btu, for a net gain of 736 Btu/ft^2/day.
>
>What is the surface area of the sunspace?

I had in mind a fairly shallow sunspace, perhaps some south "solar siding."

>It wouldn't be identical to the floor square footage,

True. It would be quite a bit larger. Making a 16' tall x 12' long lean-to
sunspace 8' deep instead of 8" deep adds another 128 ft^2 or so of endwall
losses, so if the original sunspace were designed to collect (1000-264)x16x12'
=141K Btu/day, the 8' deep one would want to collect enough sun with the
south facing glazing area A so that (1000-264)A=128*264+141K Btu/day, making
A about 238 ft^2, ie we might use a 16' x 16' sunspace.

>I would estimate you would have roughly 3 times the surface area to floor
>space ratio, at a minimum. 

Let's check that: (16x16'+128')/16x8' = 3. Exactly :-) 

>That makes an enormous difference in your calculations.

No, this is just one of those little refinements I mentioned before. Using
a deeper sunspace than solar siding requires a little more glazed area.

>And don't forget air infiltration.

OK, I won't forget that. Should we forget internal heat generation?

>> There are a few more little details to check, but this isn't rocket science,
>> or even college physics. 
>
>You need to construct one, collect data, and provide empirical results.

Like the one with the electronic data logger inside that has been up on
the roof of the local college since November 4? No, I don't need to do that.

>> ...you might use a Trombe wall, invented by Felix Trombe in 1964 (and
>> patented by Edward Morse of Salem, MA, in 1881) or a picture window in the
>> living room, with a masonry floor in front of that... A "direct loss" house,
>> like the one architect George F. Keck called a "solar house" in 1934 :-)
>
>You are making specious claims.

I disagree. Trombe walls are even poorer performers than sunspaces full of
bricks, since they have little thermal resistance. At least you can put an
insulated wall between your living space and your brick sunspace, so most of
your backup heat stays in the house during a cloudy week. You have my numbers.
Which number is incorrect? Where are your numbers? Most people don't even
need numbers to see this.

>Trombe wall effectiveness has been proven with empirical data. 

They work pretty well in the Southwest, in places with less than 5 cloudy
days per year, but even there, people call these "direct loss houses" :-)
In cloudier climates, they are thermal disasters.

>>And the architect said, "I agree with you completely, but if you do that,
>>you will violate the integrity of the traditional Trombe wall, which has
>>a magical, wonderful way of *flywheeling*, and transporting the heat
>>through the wall, so it is available at the other side *precisely* when
>>it is needed, the next morning!" And he went on and on about this conceptual
>>delight, this conceit, completely ignoring numerical performance... :-)
>
>Perhaps you should have listened to his argument for a change.  

I did listen... 

>> I'm amazed that so many people, even in these newgroups, are still so
>> interested in Trombe walls, or their passive solar equivalents, like
>> direct gain houses or high-thermal mass sunspaces. 
>
>What you have described is a direct gain air collector with no thermal mass
>for storage.

Perhaps you didn't have time to read this carefully.

>>A lot of people are apparently still willing to settle for high-cost,
>>low-performance passive solar house heating techniques, that get them a
>>30% yearly savings in backup space heating costs over a 20 year payback
>>period, vs. warmstores, solar closets, sunspaces and transparent siding,
>>which really can save close to 100% of the space heating energy needed for
>>a house AND provide close to 100% of the hot water needed for a house...

>You make these claims yet provide no empirical data to back them up.

I have some data. Norman Sauders has lots of data, and many people with
firmer grasps on simple high school physics can understand how well this
works without building a thing.

>>>How do you plan to provide for effective daylighting while preventing glare?
>> 
>>How about skylights with reflective south-facing sunscoops over the top?
>
>What are the R-values?  How many lumens do they provide?

Perhaps you have heard people say "Asking questions is the mark of a fool"? :-)

>What do you do when you have day lighting requirement in the basement
>and 1st floor of a two-story building?

I don't know. What do you do? Windows, transparent floors, light pipes,
a walkout basement?

>> >I'm presently looking for windows that block UV radiation...
>> >but are not low-E (because of the amount of infrared radiation they block).
>> 
>> You seem to be seriously confused, Will. For solar heating, blocking IR is
>> GOOD, as is passing visible light... 
>
>I don't want to block incoming infrared, which the low-E glazings do.

It is nice to pass solar IR, from 0.78 - 3 microns. It is not nice to pass
80 F IR re-radiation at 3 microns and over... One way to do this is to use
plain old glass in a low-thermal-mass sunspace. Another is to use inexpensive
single layer polycarbonate glazing. Polyethylene film is not good at blocking
either kind of IR.

>> >UV will fade furniture 
>> Something fades furniture next to south-facing windows... Is it the visible
>> light or the heat or the tiny amoutn of UV that gets through the glass?
>> At any rate, an intelligently-designed solar home (not yours, apparently)
>> will not have a lot of glass opening into the living space.
 
>You imply that I am not intelligent...

Let's just say that you don't seem to understand how to design an inexpensive,
energy-efficient solar house, and you have been bamboozled by PSIC. That's OK.
Ignorance is no crime, save when combined with arrogance, stupidity, rudeness,
direspect, stubborness, short-sightedness and superficial orthodox thinking.
 
Perhaps you should take up religion, or law.

Still trying to help...

Cheers,

Nick



From koopee@cc.hut.fi Sat May 11 09:10:26 EDT 1996
Article: 765 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!stargate.ingress.com!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news.nodak.edu!news.uoknor.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!umdac!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.funet.fi!nntp.hut.fi!usenet
From: koopee@cc.hut.fi (Petri Konttinen)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: How to control solar collector inlet temperature?
Date: 09 May 1996 14:54:14 +0300
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Lines: 49
Sender: koopee@beta.hut.fi
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <o0wive66p08.fsf@beta.hut.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: beta.hut.fi
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1

Hi there!

I have a practical problem:

How to regulate inlet fluid temperature for a solar water heater so, that
it will remain within +- 1 Celcius from the temperature wanted?

We have a outdoor test facility for solar collectors, and we want to test
different sizes and models of collectors. We want to input (mainly) water
into a collector in different temperatures, e.g., beginning from ambient
temperature (20 C), feeding the collector for, say, half an hour, then
during a few mimutes change the temperature to 35 C, keep it there for
another 30 mins, change it to 50 C, etc.

At the moment we have a 3-way valve with regulator controlling the inlet 
temperature. One pipeline feeds it with cool water, and the other has an
electric by-pass heater. Now the problem is, that the heater cannot keep the
water temperature fixed, but it fluctuates within a range of +-10 degrees.

I've planned to remove the heater and to connect the other pipeline coming
directly from the collector outlet. The other pipeline would still input
cooled water. The whole system is closed, and includes a 200-litre tank with
expansion-unit.

->      pump				     ->	_________
--------(->-------------------------------------|	|----<
-- solar		-			|	| cooling
-- collector		- 	  		| tank	| circuit
--          3-way valve	- B-inlet (down)     	|	|
------------------------|-----------------------|_______|---->
<-           AB (left)    A-inlet (right)    <-

Now, the problem will be (?), that the outlet water temperature from the 
collector will not remain constant. This will set high demands for the valve
and its controller to cope with the changing temperatures.

Does anyone know of any similar test facility?
If so, does it work?

Can you give me hints if there is any other decent way to control the 
collector inlet temperature in a closed circuit? 

Flowspeed will remain constant during the test, although we want to test
it with different flow rates, each separately from others. The minimum
flow rate will be approx. 50 litres/hour and the maximum 600 litres/hour.

Thank you for any advice/pointers!

Petri Konttinen


From howard.smith@toadhall.com Fri May 17 14:34:11 EDT 1996
Article: 766 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!amd!netcomsv!uu4news.netcom.com!toadhall!howard.smith
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: May SVCAHA meeting
From: howard.smith@toadhall.com (Howard Smith)
Message-ID: <73.199.2064@toadhall.com>
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 11:06:00 -0700
Organization: Toad Hall þ High Octane BBS þ 415-595-2427
Lines: 33

All are invited to the Saturday 11 May, 10 AM, meeting of the Silicon
Valley Chapter of the American Hydrogen Association at the Peninsula
Conservation Center, 3921 E. Bayshore Drive in Palo Alto, CAlifornia.

Warsitz Enterprises will be demonstrating their new 100 watt, hydrogen
fueled, proton exchange membrane fuel cell for use in home and portable
applications.

Recent meetings have invoked lively and informative discussions on all
aspects of renewable energy and the use of hydrogen as a storage and
transport medium for that energy.

If you cannot attend, please contact the

American Hydrogen Association
216 South Clark Drive, Suite 103
Tempe, AZ 85281
tel: 1-602-921-0433
fax: 1-602-967-6601
email: aha@getnet.com

for information on chapter meetings nearer to you.

Thanks for your patience,

Howard H. Smith
Palo Alto, CA
howard.smith@toadhall.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: howard.smith@toadhall.com (Howard Smith)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri May 17 14:34:11 EDT 1996
Article: 767 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: solar charts
Date: 11 May 1996 12:45:47 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4n2g7r$pu2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960510085237.4796A-100000@skule.ecf>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1269 alt.energy.renewable:15188 alt.solar.thermal:767 sci.energy:49248 alt.architecture.alternative:6934

Margaret Cyrzan  <cyrzan@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>
>I am interested in finding the position of the sun at noon at approx. 40 
>degrees latitude in July.  In other words at what angle is the sun from the 
>horizon.  Where can I get such information from?

You might look in the second (1991) edition of Duffie and Beckman's Wiley
book, _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_. At noon on June 21, the sun
gets up to 90+23.5-lat, ie 73.5 degrees above the horizon at 40 N lat. On
Dec 22 the max elevation is 90-23.5-lat, eg 26.5 degrees above the horizon
at 40 N lat. At other times of year, the max angle above the horizon follows
a shifted sine wave in Iqbal's formula, 90-lat+23.45sin((284+day)360/365),
where day is the day of the year from 1 (Jan 1) to 365 (Dec 31).
 
>Also, does anyone know where I might find a chart that shows the angle at 
>different times in the day for different months at different latitudes?

There's a formula in D&B's book above.

Nick



From aor@gteais.com Fri May 17 14:34:11 EDT 1996
Article: 768 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!news.gteais.com!news
From: aor <aor@gteais.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Looking for a DC motor
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:30:41 -0400
Organization: gteais-org
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <31955B61.29CC@gteais.com>
References: <4mk677$d25@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: r1p8.gteais.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
To: Raul Almquist <strider@shadowmac.org>

There is a store in Gaithersburg MD (Oakmont Ave) which must have
3,000 motors listed in their catalog.  Give them a try.  The name
is "Grainger's".


Al


From Span8591@uidaho.edu Fri May 17 14:34:12 EDT 1996
Article: 769 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uhog.mit.edu!uw-beaver!news.u.washington.edu!netnews1.nwnet.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.uidaho.edu!xslip74.csrv.uidaho.edu!user
From: Span8591@uidaho.edu (Michael Spangler)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,bit.listserv.geodesic,alt.architecture.alternative,pa.environment,sci.environment,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Another swamp thang
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 08:58:07 -0700
Organization: university of Idaho
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Span8591-0405960858070001@xslip74.csrv.uidaho.edu>
References: <4j45me$jmk@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4l1ee1$5li@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <tizq8ahmik.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> <4lgn7d$lns@morse.ukonline.co.uk> <4lrt5q$cqb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xslip74.csrv.uidaho.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49276 alt.energy.renewable:15194 bit.listserv.geodesic:4933 alt.architecture.alternative:6941 sci.environment:93858 alt.home.repair:24050 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6749 alt.solar.thermal:769

In article <4lrt5q$cqb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:


>
>One frugal Abilene house uses $100/month in winter for gas heat and $100/month
>in summer for air-conditioning. It has 6 window air conditioners. Can the
>owners use less fossil fuel?
>
(much snipped)

It doesn't sound very frugal to me. My (former) house in Winnemucca, NV
cost half that to heat in winter, and one quarter that to cool, although
the cooling was with a swamp cooler, which may not be an option on your
area. The heating was with gas. construction was standard for manufactured
housing, with 6" walls and extra insulation in the ceiling. But it was all
ordered right out the catalog.  

The rest of the post was well done. Good energy balance.

-- 
Mike Spangler 
University of Idaho
span8591@uidaho.edu


From dnoble@magi.com Fri May 17 14:34:12 EDT 1996
Article: 770 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!taurus.bv.sgi.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!news1.ottawa.istar.net!news.ottawa.istar.net!news.magi.com!magi04p43.magi.com!user
From: dnoble@magi.com (Duncan Noble)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Double low-e glass with inert gas filling
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:42:39 -0400
Organization: Noble Consulting
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <dnoble-1005961642390001@magi04p43.magi.com>
References: <4mjjt9$g0a@news.snni.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: magi04p43.magi.com

In article <4mjjt9$g0a@news.snni.com>, Mother Jones <MaJones@exo.com> wrote:

> We are about to replace a bunch of single pane windows with double pane 
> window units. We want noise reduction, and in at least some of the windows 
> we want UV filtration because we have fading. These windows are on the south 
> side of the house where the sun is quite bright, and that part of the house 
> gets quite hot in summer. (However, we live in coastal Southern California, 
> so extreme heat and cold are not really a major issue, compared to other 
> climates.)
> 
> We know that dual-glazing will give us noise reduction, along with 
> temperature insulation, and we like that. For the fading and heat problem we 
> were planning to get dual-low e glass also, but we've heard that the low-e 
> coatings that have been around for a while are now showing that they don't 
> actually last. Does anyone have any info about this? Should we go for low-e? 
> Why or why not?
> 
> We'd also like to know about the argon and other inert gas fillings that are 
> often used in dual low-e. How worthwhile is this feature? Is dual low-e 
> worthwhile without inert gas filling?

You may want to read some of the information published by the DOE on this
topic at:

http://www.nrel.gov/documents/erec_fact_sheets/erec.html

Keep in mind that the low-e is meant to block heat radiation ("southern"
low-e blocks heat radiation from entering your house; "northern" low-e
blocks heat radiation from leaving your house.)

Argon is the only cost-effective inert gas for most applications (as far
as I know). Argon increases the insulation value of your window, against
heat loss or gain by conduction.

To answer your question properly, you would have to consider how much
energy/$ you spend annually heating and/or cooling your house. If the
amount is small, you  won't be saving much in the way of $, but you may
make your house more comfortable. Dual low-e may be overkill, but single
low-e with with argon fill will only add about 5-8% to the cost of a good
quality window, not counting installation costs.

> 
> For the windows that are not exposed to direct sun, is there any reason to 
> have low-e panes -- with or without inert gas?

I'm not sure about that for Southern California. Up here in the north, the
answer would be yes, since the low-e and argon fill block heat loss from
the house, which is more an issue on the north side of the house. 
> 
> Gila Jones     -----     MaJones@exo.com

-- 
Duncan Noble, Noble Consulting
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


From thlint@iol.ie Fri May 17 14:34:12 EDT 1996
Article: 771 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!iol!usenet
From: Dermot Lennon <thlint@iol.ie>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Double low-e glass with inert gas filling
Date: 12 May 1996 23:08:32 GMT
Organization: Ireland On-Line
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4n5r1g$1gb@nuacht.iol.ie>
References: <4mjjt9$g0a@news.snni.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-034.dundalk.iol.ie
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22KIT (Windows; I; 16bit)

Enert gases are usually used to enhance the insulation effect of insulated 
glass units by reducing convection currents between the panes .I do not 
know about their effect on reducing radiation thro the unit.
Superior sound insulation insulation can also be achieved by using a 
laminated glass as one of the panes within the double glazed unit. 





From aaasolar@rt66.com Fri May 17 14:34:13 EDT 1996
Article: 772 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!pmd20.rt66.com!aaasolar
From: aaasolar@rt66.com (Chuck Marken)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Hot Water
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:10:48
Organization: Engineering International, Inc.
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <aaasolar.39.000A2E63@rt66.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmd20.rt66.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

Call for a free catalog on this, 800 245 0311, or check it out at
http://www.rt66.com/aaasolar


From jrr@fc.hp.com Fri May 17 14:34:13 EDT 1996
Article: 773 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!hpbs2500.boi.hp.com!hpax!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!jrr
From: jrr@fc.hp.com (Jeff Rearick)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: solar charts
Followup-To: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Date: 14 May 1996 19:31:51 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4nan37$buh@fcnews.fc.hp.com>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960510085237.4796A-100000@skule.ecf> <4n2g7r$pu2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpjrr.fc.hp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1280 alt.energy.renewable:15214 alt.solar.thermal:773 sci.energy:49408 alt.architecture.alternative:6957

Nick Pine (nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu) wrote:
: Margaret Cyrzan  <cyrzan@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
: >
: >I am interested in finding the position of the sun at noon at approx. 40 
: >degrees latitude in July.  In other words at what angle is the sun from the 
: >horizon.  Where can I get such information from?
:
: You might look in the second (1991) edition of Duffie and Beckman's Wiley
: book, _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_.... [snip]
:  
: >Also, does anyone know where I might find a chart that shows the angle at 
: >different times in the day for different months at different latitudes?
:
: There's a formula in D&B's book above.



In case you're not near a library but are near a browser, you could surf to:

  http://solstice.crest.org/staff/ceg/sunangle/

and run the interactive calculator (with lots of good help menus).

Jeff


From retzlafr@sask.aecl.ca Fri May 17 14:34:13 EDT 1996
Article: 774 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cu23.crl.aecl.ca!news.candu.aecl.ca!news
From: Richard Retzlaff <retzlafr@sask.aecl.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: solar charts
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:20:45 -0600
Organization: Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3198CEFD.5589@sask.aecl.ca>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91.960510085237.4796A-100000@skule.ecf> <4n2g7r$pu2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: skpc092.sask.aecl.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1281 alt.energy.renewable:15215 alt.solar.thermal:774 sci.energy:49418 alt.architecture.alternative:6959

> Margaret Cyrzan  <cyrzan@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I am interested in finding the position of the sun at noon at approx. 40
>>degrees latitude in July.  In other words at what angle is the sun from the
>>horizon.  Where can I get such information from?
> 

Just a thought...

As an alternative to this, the (I assume) building you are 
considering could be modelled in 3 Dimensions (on a CADD system) 
and then one could use a program that would essentially "shine" 
light on the building according to building location (Lat-Long) 
and time of day.  This would show shadows, illumination, 
reflection etc.  A very realistic view of the effect of the sun 
on the space.  One could then do an animation compressing an 
entire day into about 30 seconds.

Richard Retzlaff
retzlafr@sask.aecl.ca


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri May 17 14:34:13 EDT 1996
Article: 775 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience
Date: 15 May 1996 13:01:12 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 169
Message-ID: <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4n4vds$6nl@news.whidbey.com> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: pretty long winded
Keywords: sunspaces, bubblewalls, research, design, development
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15226 sci.energy:49462 alt.architecture.alternative:6963 alt.solar.thermal:775 bit.listserv.geodesic:4959

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>I would recommend talking to a number of different energy consultants.

Me too. I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...

Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
person who answers it correctly.

>Nick does have a lot of theories, though he considers many of his untried
>pet theories to be far superior to anything anyone else has ever conceived.

It's hard to know how to dissect that sentence :-) It looks like an insult.
And untrue. Most of this stuff was conceived a long, long, long time ago.
New weather data, new arrangements of systems and new materials and controls
make it ever more practical and cost-effective and efficient now, but that
isn't the main problem...

Yes, I'm smarter than most people ("References please"--I belong to Mensa)
and I know a lot more about physics, and I've thought a lot more and in more
depth about solar heating and have more engineering degrees than many house
designers, backyard crackpots and armchair a.e.r posters who like to talk
about alt.energy but haven't done any at all, or PV hobbyists who have
learned how to screw a system together but don't know Ohm's law either, and
I do think _some_ of "my solar theories" are the cat's pajamas, especially
the ones that seem to make sense with my simple understanding of physics,
and the ones that really do work... the ones we've been trying out now in a
2' x 4' x 8' tall structure with an electronic data logger and modem inside,
in the real Pennsylvania winter outdoors on the roof of the physics building
at Ursinus college in Collegeville, PA since November 4... and physics prof
Paul Bashus and I have managed to hornswoggle our solar theories on paper
past the technical review committees of two international conferences in
the last year, as well as a number of PhDs, who have accepted our solar
closet paper for presentation at the Unesco-sponsored World Renewable Energy
Congress in Denver from June 16-21 (Jessica_White@NREL.GOV--the registration
fee increases from $340-740 after today, May 15), whose steering committee
alone has people from 130 countries, and I've talked and run sessions on solar
heating and cooling techniques at several US conferences, but. .  .
serious scientists and engineers consider solar closets and sunspaces
"trivial physics" and "unoriginal research."

Many scientists are out collecting funding to improve the solar collection
efficiency of some system from 16 to 17% by adding another $10/ft^2 to the
cost of something that already costs $30/ft^2. This kind of solar house
heating technology has been around since Edward Morse invented the "Trombe
Wall" in 1881, at least, and it's understood by many people who know what
they are talking about, and a lot more who don't. Solar house heating just
hasn't been done well yet, outside of the Southwest, on an significant scale,
partly because the field is peopled by ignorant hucksters, partly because
we are still waiting for the government to help make that happen... But
this is lumberyard and hardware store science, not stuff for theses and
Nobel prizes and NREL grants. It's waiting for bold entrepreneurs. And
more expensive energy prices, or people who care more about the environment,
or government regulations that make not caring more expensive...

Many heating and cooling engineers are working on heating and cooling systems
for skyscrapers, or heat pumps, where the money is today.

I've only been doing this full-time for 2 years now, after 25 years of
electrical engineering, and I'm still learning. Some things seem like good
ideas on paper but really do have to be tried out, and improved somehow for
some applications, or proved to be impractical for others, like bubblewalls.

Some things don't need to be tested much, like low-thermal-mass sunspaces,
and some things do, like bubblewalls. It's important to know the difference.

Bubblewalls are the subject of an old Swedish patent (I wish I had a copy.)
The original application was storefront windows. They have been tried in
this country over the years by people like John Groh, a New York grower (?)
and Dr. Merrill Jenson at U Arizona and Dr. Otho Wells at U New Hampshire,
who concluded in 1977 that bubblewalls were not practical night insulation
for commercial plastic film greenhouses simply because those greenhouses
need to be put together so roughly and quickly in the field by unskilled
people (so as not to raise their basic cost of 50 cents per square foot :-)
that leaks in such a system could not be avoided. Everyday leaks in plumbing,
plastic film connections, etc. These are real problems, and I don't mean to
minimize them, but they are also application-specific, and not hard to solve.

Dr. Wells says that windows in solar houses may be a different situation,
since they can be made more carefully... He also says he only got a US
R-value of 1.5 or so out of his 3"-6" thick poly film pillows, so it seems
we need to improve the bubbles themselves somehow, make them smaller and
longer lasting, with thicker walls perhaps, or go work on something else.
Dr. Aristid V. Gross of Temple U and the blind Belgian physicist Joseph
Plateau (1801-1883) both made bubbles that lasted over a year...

Dr. Wells was using an open system, more dustprone than a closed one, making
bubbles at the top of a 25' x 196' double poly film greenhouse to fill the
double poly film walls all round. He put slits in the plastic film, some
with sewn-in zippers (he said sewing zippers into poly film isn't easy),
to let some air out at the endwalls. He found he had to make more bubbles
every 2-4 hours, to keep the walls full of bubbles. Dr. Jenson experimented
with a photosensor to do this automatically, and also tried adding dyes to
the bubble solution, which were diluted so much in bubble from that they
had little effect. Another way to keep the glazing cavities full is to keep
a layer of bubbles moving slowly from bottom to top in a continuous fashion.
Another is to use temperature sensors to measure the R-value. Dr. Wells
said the small bubbles tended to settle out quickly and become liquid
again at the bottom...

Another problem: Dr. Wells mentions that the bubble distribution was not
uniform--big bubbles and open spots, thermal shunts with no bubbles, up to
1-2' in diameter would often develop. This might happen less if bubbles
move continuously up from the bottom instead of intermittently down from
the top of the cavity. Dr. Wells used a basic solution of 3% type E dust
reduction foam (a better choice might have been firefighting foam) from Mine
Safety Supply in Pittsburgh (now Mine Safety Appliances at (412) 776-7700?)
with 1% propylene glycol as antifreeze, because when the bubbles freeze
inside the outside layer of poly film, they break, and the R-value goes
down and their friction against passing bubbles goes up, and he didn't want
water frozen in pipes either. Can we make frozen bubbles that don't break?

Yes. That's been done, often, in public at the San Francisco Exploratorium
by Dr. Ilan Chabay, called "one of the world's foremost authorities on
frozen bubbles," in John Cassidy's _Unbelievable Bubble Book_ for children
(Klutz Press, 1987.) Has Dr. Wells ever talked with Dr. Chabray or Dr. Grosse?
I don't think any physicist would call bubbles trivial physics. Child's play
maybe, but not trivial :-) We need more child-like physicists.

There is at lot of work to do in this alt.energy field, and a lot of it,
like preventing leaks or finding the right soapy solution is not that
technically difficult. There isn't a lot of funding, but there's a lot of
work to do, a lot of opportunity for serious backyard builders and high
school science fair students to do interesting things that may later become
good, cost-effective, reliable, simple socially-useful techniques and
products, given some common sense and education and patience and a lack
of greed and shortsightedness.

Some things need to be tested and developed a lot, others are no-brainers,
if we start thinking from scratch. Not everyone wants to live in an
experimental bubblewall house, but lots of people like sunspaces. There's
a huge gap between commercial plastic film greenhouses costing for 50 cents
per square foot and residential sunspaces costing $50-150 per square foot.
Who will fill it?  NREL?  No...

There's another gap between serious scientists who say all this is trivial
well-understood physics, while they collect their salaries working on more
and more exotic research, and alt.energy.renewable experts who say it won't
work, it's been tried before, Trombe walls are the cat's pajamas, etc, etc.
Bullshit!

>I would have to say that distributing the energy evenly to where it is
>desired is yet the most important half.  Many houses have been built
>where some rooms overheated while others grew cold.  Distributing the
>heat to zones at specific times during the day is an interesting challenge.

Sure, that's important, but let's collect the heat to begin with, Will, and
then worry about that problem. Or wear a sweater in one room and take it off
in another. That's HVAC. Air pushers, ducts and fans and blowers and zone
controls, to move warm air out of our sunspace or solar closet around the
house. Not too hard in a new house, and harder in a retrofit, unless we can
mix the warm air into a big room or dump it into a return grate somewhere,
somehow. That's a lot better understood than solar heating. Straightforward
everyday cranking, for someone who knows how to do it.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

					  Tom Smith


From plonewolf@aol.com Fri May 17 14:34:14 EDT 1996
Article: 776 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: plonewolf@aol.com (PLonewolf)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: solar charts
Date: 15 May 1996 15:46:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4ndcbd$ovv@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3198CEFD.5589@sask.aecl.ca>
Reply-To: plonewolf@aol.com (PLonewolf)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1284 alt.energy.renewable:15229 alt.solar.thermal:776 sci.energy:49472 alt.architecture.alternative:6965

A GPS unit from Trimble Inc. can give you this informaton. This is a unit
designed for the military but sold to the civilian market. One of its
functions is to give you the direction and height of the sun during
anytime of the year at any location you put in. It is very handy. It also
does this for the moon since a lot of military operations are at night.
Hope this helps and if you need a address dorp a line.
Pierre A. Lonewolf
Lonewolf Communications
KOTZ-AM
Kotzebue, Alaska 99752


From s840157@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU Fri May 17 14:34:14 EDT 1996
Article: 777 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU!s840157
From: s840157@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (David Hoadley)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: 16 May 1996 01:53:54 GMT
Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia.
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4n4vds$6nl@news.whidbey.com> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.its.rmit.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-User: s840157
Keywords: sunspaces, bubblewalls, research, design, development
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15231 sci.energy:49480 alt.architecture.alternative:6970 alt.solar.thermal:777 bit.listserv.geodesic:4963

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>>I would recommend talking to a number of different energy consultants.

>Me too. I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
>That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
>but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...

>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
>person who answers it correctly.

This brings me to another point (thus the change of topic title). When I
first started reading these groups I was rather taken aback by the high
R-values people mention. Here in Australia, they are generally in the
range R-1.5 to R-3 or 4 for (say) fibreglass insulation. The units are,
naturally, degC.m^2/W. I was surprised to find that American ones are
expressed in British Thermal Units (which I had thought went out with the 
ark), feet, and fahrenheit, but at least it explained the difference. So I
tried to work out a conversion factor. Can someone confirm it for me? i.e.

  Is it true that 1 watt = 3.412 BTU/hr?  If so, have I got it right that
  R-1 (International) degC.m^2/W = R-5.678 (US) degF.hr.ft^2/BTU?

Thanks,
David.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
David Hoadley                        Internet: s840157@minyos.its.rmit.edu.au
Electrical Engineering, RMIT
Melbourne, Australia                Ph: +61 3 9660-4847, Fax: +61 3 9660-2007


From wstewart@patriot.net Fri May 17 14:34:14 EDT 1996
Article: 778 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!
 pipex!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:29:41 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4n4vds$6nl@news.whidbey.com> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-23.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15233 sci.energy:49489 alt.architecture.alternative:6973 alt.solar.thermal:778 bit.listserv.geodesic:4964

Nick Pine wrote:
>
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>
> >I would recommend talking to a number of different energy consultants.
>
> Me too. I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
> That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
> but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...

Because that is an electrical term, as opposed to a thermodynamic term.
Appropriate if you are talking to a PV consultant, but confusing otherwise.
You are simply trying to make other people translate your way of thinking as
an EE.  Why not speak in thermodynamic terms, like the rest of the industry?

> Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
> temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
> sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
> of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
> of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
> Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
> person who answers it correctly.

You don't give enough data in order to answer your question, and your question
is not clearly stated.  However, for the sake of fun, I'll make some assumptions.

Assumptions;

1. The water starts out at 36oF.

2. Thermal conduction is the only heat transfer mechanism, aside from the energy
provided by the sun.

3. There are no losses incurred by the R1 glazing on the 1000 Btu/ft^2/day.

4. There are no data points for how much energy is provided on an hour-by-hour
basis, so I will assume an even amount of sun over a 10 hour period.

 ===========================

Weight of water:
4x4x4 = 64ft^3 of water

64 x 62.4 lb/ft^3 =  3993.6 lbs of water

Let's just call it 4000 lbs.

---------------------------

Thermal resistance of cube:
4x4 = 16 ft^2/side  value of R1 area

16x5 = 80 ft^2 of R20 surface

R1 total = 1/16 = 0.0625

R20 total  = 1/4 = 0.25

R total = 0.0625 x 0.25/(0.0625 + 0.25) = 0.05

U = 1/0.05 =20 Btu/hr-oF

--------------------------------

Thermal energy input

1000 Btus/day-ft^2 * 16 ft^2 / 10 hrs/day input
 = 1600 Btus/hr while the sun is shining.

------------------------------

The water in the cube would rise to a steady state temperature of
36 +80 = 116 oF if the energy input were continuous.
When shaded, the water in the cube would fall over time to 36oF.

A complete answer with specific times would require calculus, if specific
times was what you were looking for.  Approximations could be made, but
the answer would not be 'correct'.  Let's just approximate the time it takes
the water to rise 1 oF without considering the negligible loss through the
cube walls.

4000 lbs of water would require 2.5 hours of 1600 btu/hr energy input, again
without considering the loss through the cube walls.


Now, if you;
  -moved the water inside to the interior sunspace of a 68oF house,

  -made the glazing 7'x10 (4 in the entire house on the south side)

  -used a flatter 4"x4'x10' water wall (4 in the entire house), 4" away
   from the glazing inside the house,

  -used an R4 glazing when the sun was shining,
   and an extra R8 window cover when the sun wasn't shining,

then you would have a direct, passive solar design that retained
the sun's heat energy in the building interior and released it
slowly into the interior at night

Care to try the math?

assume another 60 ft^2 of window at R4 during the day, adding
   another R8 at the other 14 hours.
Assume R24 walls and R38 ceiling.
Assume a two story, 24'x 48' floorspace house with 8' ceilings.
Assume an outside temperature of 36 oF
Assume 0.25 air changes per hour (optional).
Assume 100 Btu/hr/ft^2 insolation over 10 hours every day.
Make an assumption about the thermal storage of the rest of the interior
  items/material.

> >I would have to say that distributing the energy evenly to where it is
> >desired is yet the most important half.  Many houses have been built
> >where some rooms overheated while others grew cold.  Distributing the
> >heat to zones at specific times during the day is an interesting challenge.

> Sure, that's important, but let's collect the heat to begin with, Will, and
> then worry about that problem. Or wear a sweater in one room and take it off
> in another.

I try to look at the whole picture.  A solar closet might gather the energy,
but distributing it is another matter altogether.

>That's HVAC. Air pushers, ducts and fans and blowers and zone
> controls, to move warm air out of our sunspace or solar closet around the
> house.

You now no longer have a passive system, but now require temperature
regulation, ducting, electrical loads, etc.

Some people prefer the passive method, and it is not your perogative
to tell them that they are wrong in preferring that.

> Not too hard in a new house, and harder in a retrofit, unless we can
> mix the warm air into a big room or dump it into a return grate somewhere,
> somehow. That's a lot better understood than solar heating. Straightforward
> everyday cranking, for someone who knows how to do it.

I can't wait until you have to balance your first air-handling system.  Keep
at it!

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri May 17 14:34:15 EDT 1996
Article: 779 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: 16 May 1996 04:52:30 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Keywords: sunspaces, bubblewalls, research, design, development
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15237 sci.energy:49499 alt.architecture.alternative:6979 alt.solar.thermal:779 bit.listserv.geodesic:4966 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6862

David Hoadley <s840157@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU> wrote:
>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

  Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
  temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
  sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
  of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
  of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
  Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
  person who answers it correctly.

Still no numerical answers, 16 hours after this posting. Perhaps $10 is
insufficient bait to catch an energy consultant, or they are out of season? 

Or perhaps it should be rephrased in international units:
 
Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
temperature be inside a 1 m cube full of water surrounded by 5 R5 foam walls,
sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
of 2 C and the sun puts 3 kWh/m^2 per day of heat into the R0.175 glazed side
of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
person who answers it correctly.

>This brings me to another point (thus the change of topic title). When I
>first started reading these groups I was rather taken aback by the high
>R-values people mention. Here in Australia, they are generally in the
>range R-1.5 to R-3 or 4 for (say) fibreglass insulation.

R30 house walls are pretty good walls in the US. Perhaps a good new
Australian or French or British house has R5 walls, made with
straw bales and mortar, 40 cm thick? A 1 bale wall?

>The units are, naturally, degC.m^2/W.

Of course Mother Nature thinks in meters and C, not feet and F :-) The
natural thing about a Btu (the amount of energy in a kitchen match) is that
it takes eggsactly 1 to raise 1 pound of water or 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F.
It takes about 100 Btus to make a cup of coffee. Chickens make about
5 Btu/hr/lb of sensible heat. A typical 5.41 lb bunny makes 40. 1 cfm of
air flowing with a temperature difference of 1 F moves about 1 Btu/hour,
a single pane window is about R1, and 2 layers are R2. A pound of water
takes 144 (1 gross) Btus to freeze at 32 F, which is close to the average
air temperature in December where I live, and it takes about 1000 Btu to
boil away a pound of water at 212 F. A south wall in December receives
about 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun where I live, 300 Btu/hour/ft^2 peak. The
thermal conductance of an airfilm with air moving at V mph is about
2 + V/2 Btu/hr-ft^2-F for rough surfaces. A black body at T degrees F
radiates 0.174x 10^-8(460+T)^4 Btu/hr-ft^2. US hardware stores sell rolls
of 6" fiberglass insulation stamped R19 in big letters (R10 with 2%
moisture, R0 in a good wind) for 25 cents/ft^2, and R10 foamboard 2"
thick costs about 50 cents/ft^2.   

What is natural in metric? Water freezes at 0 C and boils at 100 C, and
it takes about 1 kWh to heat 1 m^3 of water or 3,000 m^3 of air 1 C. A cup
of coffee takes about 30 Watt-hours. People make about 100 Watts, rabbits
5 W/kg. 1 m^3/sec of air flowing with a temperature difference of 1 C
moves about 1 kW of heat. It's a little harder to remember that 1 layer
of glass with an airspace has metric R0.175, and 2 layers have R0.35.
It takes about 100 kWh to freeze a cubic meter of water and 663 kWh to
evaporate one. The ratio of evaporative to convective power loss at a
wet surface with temperature Tp in Ta air is about (Tp-Ta)/(Pwp-Pa)/2,
independent of windspeed, where Pwp and Pa are vapor pressures in mm Hg.
A south facing wall in December receives about 3 kWh/m^2/day of sun where
I live, with a peak of 1 kW/m^2, and the thermal conductance of an airfilm 
with air moving at V m/s is about 10 + 2V W/m^2-C for rough surfaces, eg 
100 W/m^2 in a 5 m/s wind for a 25 C surface on a 20 C night. How much
more if the surface is wet, and the air has 50% RH? How much more if the
sky is clear? Do French hardware stores sell R2 foamboard 5 cm thick for
about about 30 FF/m^2? Why does the Lord permit such Suffering on Earth,
if He is Omnipotent?

>I was surprised to find that American ones are expressed in British Thermal
>Units (which I had thought went out with the ark)...

Now that Britain and Australia use Watts and meters, we are thinking of
calling these American thermal units, or perhaps Bunny thermal units.

>So I tried to work out a conversion factor. Can someone confirm it for me? 
>
>  Is it true that 1 watt = 3.412 BTU/hr?  If so, have I got it right that
>  R-1 (International) degC.m^2/W = R-5.678 (US) degF.hr.ft^2/BTU?

I think so.

Or would those be degrees K, in that particular alphabetical procession? 

Nick

   When we play tennis or walk downstairs we are actually solving whole
   pages of differential equations, quickly, easily and without thinking
   about it, using the analogue computer which we keep in our minds. What
   we find difficult about mathematics is the formal, symbolic presentation
   of the subject by pedagogues with a taste for dogma, sadism and
   incomprehensible squiggles.

          From _Structures: Why Things Don't Fall Down_, by J. E. Gordon



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri May 17 14:34:15 EDT 1996
Article: 780 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: "Energy consultants"
Date: 16 May 1996 10:34:14 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 370
Message-ID: <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: Ohm vs. Ommmm, or redesigning direct loss houses
Keywords: long again
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49509 alt.solar.thermal:780 alt.energy.renewable:15238 alt.architecture.alternative:6981 bit.listserv.geodesic:4968 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6867

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>>
>> ...I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
>> That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
>> but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...
>
>Because that is an electrical term, as opposed to a thermodynamic term.  

Many people learn Ohm's law in high school, Will...
I think an energy expert should be familiar with Ohm's law.
To far too many people these days, "energy" = "electrical energy."

>Appropriate if you are talking to a PV consultant, but confusing otherwise.  

Yes, Ohm's law is confusing to certain "energy consultants" :-) 

>You are simply trying to make other people translate your way of thinking as 
>an EE.  Why not speak in thermodynamic terms, like the rest of the industry?

Perhaps we should ask 'em about enthalpy? :-)

>>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
>>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>>Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
>>person who answers it correctly.
>
>You don't give enough data in order to answer your question, and your question
>is not clearly stated.

I think there is too much data above, and the question is reasonably clear. 

>However, for the sake of fun, I'll make some assumptions.

Good :-) This is the first numerical answer I've seen...

>Assumptions;
>1. The water starts out at 36oF.
>2. Thermal conduction is the only heat transfer mechanism, aside from
>the energy provided by the sun.

Good. Although R-values include convection and radiation.

>3. There are no losses incurred by the R1 glazing on the 1000 Btu/ft^2/day.

The glazing is perfectly transparent? Fine.

>4. There are no data points for how much energy is provided on an hour-by-hour
>basis, so I will assume an even amount of sun over a 10 hour period.

OK. (I don't think that matters here, but...)

>Weight of water:

>Let's just call it 4000 lbs.

OK. 
 
>Thermal resistance of cube:

>4x4 = 16 ft^2/side  value of R1 area
>16x5 = 80 ft^2 of R20 surface
>R1 total = 1/16 = 0.0625
>R20 total  = 1/4 = 0.25
>R total = 0.0625 x 0.25/(0.0625 + 0.25) = 0.05
>U = 1/0.05 =20 Btu/hr-oF

Excellent! 

>Thermal energy input
>
>1000 Btus/day-ft^2 * 16 ft^2 / 10 hrs/day input 
> = 1600 Btus/hr while the sun is shining.

Um, OK...

>The water in the cube would rise to a steady state temperature of 
>36 +80 = 116 oF if the energy input were continuous.

Perhaps, but recall the problem:

>>the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side of the box.

>>And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?

>When shaded, the water in the cube would fall over time to 36oF.

Well, yes...

>A complete answer with specific times would require calculus, if specific 
>times was what you were looking for.

Yes, that was what I was looking for. More than the obvious... Finding the
form of the answer requires calculus, but Newton did that once, a long long
time ago. Finding the answer just requires plugging some numbers into a
simple formula, if you know the formula.

>Approximations could be made, but the answer would not be 'correct'. 

Approximations using arithmetic would be fine... That's easy to do.

>Let's just approximate the time it takes the water to rise 1 oF without
>considering the negligible loss through the cube walls.

OK (?)

>4000 lbs of water would require 2.5 hours of 1600 btu/hr energy input, again
>without considering the loss through the cube walls.

True, but why are you talking about heating rather than cooling?  

		    *     *     *

Sorry. No $10. Would you like to try again?

                    *     *     *

At this point, Mr Stewart changes the subject:

>Now, if you;
>  -moved the water inside to the interior sunspace of a 68oF house, 
>  -made the glazing 7'x10 (4 in the entire house on the south side)

    ie 280 ft^2 of south glazing?

>  -used a flatter 4"x4'x10' water wall (4 in the entire house), 4" away 
>   from the glazing inside the house, 

    ie about 400 pounds of water? 4" away from the glazing? Transparent
    water? Hmmm :-) I guess you won't be able to see very clearly out of
    those windows, but they will let in some light...
 
>  -used an R4 glazing when the sun was shining, 

With how much solar transmittance, at what cost, and what happens when the
argon leaks out? Some of these $40/ft^2 high-R windows have low solar
transmittance, on the order of 50%. Hmmm, 280 ft^2 x $40/ft^2 = $11,200.

>   and an extra R8 window cover when the sun wasn't shining, 

How would you do that? Movable insulation, at $10/ft^2, installed? Will you
move it twice a day religiously? Will it leak any air around the edges?

>then you would have a direct, passive solar design that retained the sun's
>heat energy in the building interior and released it slowly into the
>interior at night

Right. Another "direct loss" house :-)

>Care to try the math?

Sure. I like this arithmetic. Let me get a cup of coffee... Now I'm back,
200 Btu later. I've had this espresso machine for about 3 months now. I
guess if some people like me find it fun to wiggle the valves on an espresso
machine with all the steam and noise and watch the milk temp rise with a
thermometer twice a day, others might find it fun to move window insulation
all over a house twice a day, for three months... Or, maybe you only move
the window insulation on a cloudy winter day--but no, you want to do it at
night too... or you might leave some windows covered all winter, like Pat
Hennin or Malcolm Wells, in semi-hibernation, huddled in cold dark rooms. 

>assume another 60 ft^2 of window at R4 during the day, adding 
>   another R8 at the other 14 hours.

OK. That's a long winter day...

>Assume R24 walls and R38 ceiling.  

OK. Let's assume that includes the 2x6's, etc, that act as thermal shunts,
ie the equivalent thermal resistance of the entire wall is R24. This is not
just a wall with layers of insulation with R-values that add up to R24
(which might have a much lower R-value), and the insulation is installed
properly with no gaps, etc. Are you sure about all that?

>Assume a two story, 24'x 48' floorspace house with 8' ceilings.

OK. I guess you mean the footprint on the ground is 24 x 48?
So the house volume is 24 x 48 x 16 = 18432 ft^3.

>Assume an outside temperature of 36 oF

OK. (The average will be warmer during daylight, which is good.)

>Assume 0.25 air changes per hour (optional).

OK. That's 0.25 x 18432 ft^3/hr = 4608 ft^3/hr or 77 cfm :-) I'll assume
(I almost said "guess") this is leakage thru walls, etc, without an air-air
heat exchanger... Will the finished house have a blower door testing spec?

May we also assume you use a frugal 500 kWh/month of electricity, ie an
average of about 700 Watts? (Steve Baer only uses 80 kWh/mo :-) This is
equivalent to 700 x 3.41 = 2387 Btu/hr. Let's add the heat from two
300 Btu/hr people inside the house for 16 hours a day, and one 150 Btu/hr
dog and a 50 Btu/hour cat, full-time. Total internal energy generation:
2387(24)+600(16)+200(24) = 72K/day.

>Assume 100 Btu/hr/ft^2 insolation over 10 hours every day.

OK.

>Make an assumption about the thermal storage of the rest of the interior
>items/material.

How about 1 lb of water/ft^2 of walls and ceiling? (1/2" drywall has the 
equivalent of 1/2 lb of water/ft^2, so you may need some concrete furniture..)
I'll make some other assumptions, too.

I guess we'd want to know the thermal resistance of this house for starters.
So let's add up the thermal conductances U = Sum(Ai/Ri) and find
the reciprocal 1/U... 

We have 340 ft^2 of windows, R4 during a 10 hour day (Uday = 340/4 = 85)
and R8 during a 14 hour night (Unight = 340/8 = 43), with an average daily
Uwindow = (10xUday+14xUnight)/24 = 60.

Uwalls = (2(24+48)x16-340)/R24 = 82, and Uceiling = 24x48/R38 = 30.

And Uinf = 77 Btu/hr-F.

So U = 60+30+77 = 167 Btu/hr-F and R = 0.006, over 24 hours.

At night the U value would be lower, after you devotedly travel around
the house and painstakingly put up your night insulation on every window,
making sure the edges are ever so carefully sealed, akin to some little
twice-daily religious experience... Unight = 43+30+77 = 150 Btu/hr-F.

What will the steady state energy flow be for this house after a long
string of average December days, with an average amount of sun?

The energy Ein that flows into this house in a day might be 

  280 ft^2 windows x 50% transmission x 1000 Btu/ft^2/day = 140K 
                            +  internal energy generation =  72K
	                                        total Ein = 212K.

And the energy Eout that flows out of the house might be 

  24 hours x (68-36) x 167 = 128 K Btu/day.

So, after a long string of perfectly average December days, Ein-Eout
= 84K Btu/day, if you keep the house at an average of 68 F during the
day... This might make a fine New Mexico house.

If you let the house temperature float over this time, you might have
an average house temp T such that 24 (T-36) 167 = 212K, or T = 89 F.
Colder at night, warmer during the day. Very toasty.

Now, thermal mass: the house has about 3500 ft^2 of walls and ceilings with
a thermal mass equivalent to 3,500 pounds of water and another 400 pounds
of actual water. Let's call this 4,000 Btu/hr-F. So if you make the temp of
the house, say, 80 F at dusk, at the end of an average day, with some sun,
after a long string of December days, each with 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun,
during the night the house will lose approximately 14 hours (80-36) 150 =
100K Btu, which might come from the 4,000 Btu/F of thermal mass cooling plus
14/24 hours x 72K = 42K of internal energy generation, ie the temperature of
the house might drop to 80 - (100K-42K)/4K = 65 F at dawn. 

So yes, this 56%-electrically-heated house with all of the movable window
insulation looks marginally comfortable after a long string of average winter 
December days, each with an average amount of sun. But what do you do if the
next day is cloudy, or the day after that, or during a cloudy week in January,
when the temperature outside is -10 F? You will have to use backup heat...
Or, gasp, wear a sweater. With no sun and no backup heat, and with all the
windows boarded up on the inside, 24 hours a day, just using the internal
electrical energy consumption (and the people and livestock) after a day or
so, Ein = 72K Btu/day and Eout = 24(T-36) 150 ==> T = 56 F inside. Not bad.
Quite warm by Inuit standards. More dogs and cats would help.

How much backup heat will you need in an average year? One way to answer 
that question is to go find some TMY2 data somewhere on the web (references,
please :-) for a Typical Meteorological Year for this house location, and do
a very simple simulation using that data and formulas like the ones above.
Another is to do the same thing in more of a worst-case manner, ie more
reliably using hourly data for the last 30 years from an NREL/NOAA CD-ROM.
Then one might change the design until it is a "solar house," in the sense
that it would not have needed any other form of heat over the last 30 years,
according to the simulation, at which point, many people would opt to
eliminate the backup heating system, saving some space and money...

Here's an alternative design to try out in that simulation:

Eliminate half the south windows and all the movable window insulation, to
eliminate the daily labor and lower the price by $10K or so and lower the
overall U value to about 140 Btu/hr-F, and make a little more privacy if that
matters, and add on a 2-story, $5000, 16' wide x 8' deep lean-to sunspace
with an 10' tall x 13' long x 5' deep solar closet containing 36 55 gallon
drums, inside the sunspace, south of the house and adjoining the house wall.
Each square foot of sunspace would supply about 1000 Btu - 6hr (80-36)/R1
= 700 Btu/day of heat for the house, ie about 180K of heat, vs the 120K-72K
= 48K/day the improved house would require on an average day, via a $200
motorized damper at the top of the sunspace that uses 2 Watts of electrical
energy when moving (rarely) and 0 watts (mostly) in a fixed position to let
warm air flow into the house as needed, controlled by two thermostats. 

The solar closet would contain about 18,000 Btu/F of thermal mass, vs.
4,000 Btu/F, to keep the house at whatever temperature _you_ wanted,
independent of weather, overnight, or on a cloudy day. Assuming the water
starts out at 130 F after a long string of December days, with some sun,
the solar closet would store about 25K Btu of heat in each drum, enough
to keep the house at 68 F for about 25Kx36/48K = 19 days without any sun 
at 36 F, or 3.3 days without any sun at -10 F. We might improve that by
making the solar closet bigger. 

After 3 or 4 days without sun at -10 F, with all the windows boarded up on
the inside, and no backup heat, how can we estimate the temperature T inside
the house we started with, before the improvements? 

24(T-(-10))150 = 72K, so T = -10 + 72K/(24x150) = -10 + 20 = 10 F.

It might take longer than 3 or 4 days to get to that temp, since the pipes
and water walls would release about 400,000 Btu while freezing at 32 F, as
the house temperature plunged. On the other hand, the people might move out
sooner, depriving the house of their heat...

Were you planning to have hot water in this house? How were you planning
to do that? You might put a water heater on the second floor with some
Big Fins in the sunspace or 10-20' of fin-tube pipe near the ceiling of the
solar closet (less expensive), with a warm water thermosyphon loop through
the water heater, to supply a frugal hot water house load of 50K Btu/day...

About heat distribution...
    
>> ...wear a sweater in one room and take it off in another? 
>
>I try to look at the whole picture.  A solar closet might gather the energy,
>but distributing it is another matter altogether.
>
>>That's HVAC. Air pushers, ducts and fans and blowers and zone controls,
>>to move warm air out of our sunspace or solar closet around the house. 
>
>You now no longer have a passive system, but now require temperature
>regulation, ducting, electrical loads, etc.

One might compare this to an oil fired hot air furnace that uses 800 watts
of electrical power when running, while consuming 38 kW (1 gph) of oil power
and delivering 35 kW to the house. That's a fossil COP of 44. Some old and
inefficient and expensive active solar systems have renewable COPs of 50.
For instance, CSI's air/rockbed system in New Hampshire, built in 1982, uses
"2% fan power, 98% solar power." A better way to compare heating systems
might be their yearly heating bills, including the electrical power to run
the heating system. I think one can build a solar house that consumes no more
than 50 watts average, for the heating system, with no backup heating fuel,
and no backup heating system.

A 560 cfm fan ("References please"--Dayton fan 4C688, page 2964, Grainger
catalog 386, 1650 rpm, 10" diameter, max temp rating 149F, $60.75) moving air
>from  a solar closet into a house with 0.05" static pressure (as measured in
our experimental structure) can move about 5600 Btu/hr into this house with a
temp difference of 10 F, ie 134K Btu/day, while dissipating at most 36 Watts
of electrical power. 

>Some people prefer the passive method, and it is not your perogative
>to tell them that they are wrong in preferring that.

Oh sure it is, and it seems kind to tell people, if their passive houses are
such miserable and expensive performers. And as Newton Ellison and others
say, this passive/active dichotomy isn't very useful. I'd say what matters
more these days is money, comfort, reliability, cost and maintenance.

Sailboats are passive devices using powerful natural forces and often smart
low-power controls. Their captains care a lot about cost and performance... 

Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Fri May 17 14:34:16 EDT 1996
Article: 781 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Passive solar heating for pool?
Date: 16 May 1996 11:59:59 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4nfjdv$g2q@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <DrGsFu.10L@eskimo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Keywords: solar heating swimming pool
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15243 alt.solar.thermal:781 sci.energy:49511

Shane Peterson <aladd@eskimo.com> wrote:
 
>I have a friend who is looking for information on passive solar
>heating designs for a kid's swimming pool.

Sounds interesting... Solar pool heating should be very easy,
with low water temps and all that built-in storage...

>Specifics:  Pool size is about 3700gal

eg 462 ft^3 of water in a circular pool, 3' deep, 14' diam, 154 ft^2 cover?

>            Location is western Washington near Olympia

          SP (sun power)    Daily air temperature   Pool temp

Hmmm. Jan 450 Btu/ft^2/day  38 F average  44 F max  83 F
      Feb 640 ( > of vert,  41 F          50 F      94 F
      Mar 880  horizontal)  44 F          54 F     105 F
      Oct 810               50 F          61 F     131 F 
      Nov 490               43 F          50 F      92 F
      Dec 390               38 F          44 F      77 F

>     Cost should be kept low, construction of
>     heating panel would be done by the owners.

The main thing is to have a good cover. Suppose it's R10 foil-faced foam,
2" thick, 16 x 16, hinged along the north edge, with a counterweight, and
you have R10 foamboard around the perimeter, and you use an R1 floating 
transparent cover and open and close the rigid reflective cover every day
when the sun is shining, except in October... 

Air temp Ta and water temp Tw make a daily heat loss Eout of roughly

      6 hr (Tw-Ta) 154/R1     cover open
   + 18 hr (Tw-Ta) 154/R10    cover closed
   + 24 hr (Tw-Ta) 132/R10    sides
   
= (924+277+317)(Tw-Ta) = =1518(Tw-Ta) = 154 SP = Ein ==>

Tw ~= Ta + SP/10 (see table above.)

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu May 23 13:38:47 EDT 1996
Article: 782 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Sample solar problems
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:29:01 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 288
Message-ID: <319C008D.4D44@patriot.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-13.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49550 alt.solar.thermal:782 alt.energy.renewable:15246 alt.architecture.alternative:6983 bit.listserv.geodesic:4970 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6879

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >Nick Pine wrote:
>
> >>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
> >>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
> >>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
> >>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
> >>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
> >>Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
> >>person who answers it correctly.

> >You don't give enough data in order to answer your question, and your question
> >is not clearly stated.\
> >The water in the cube would rise to a steady state temperature of
> >36 +80 = 116 oF if the energy input were continuous.
> 
> Perhaps, but recall the problem:
> 
> >>the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side of the box. 
> >>And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
> >When shaded, the water in the cube would fall over time to 36oF.

I showed how it would change over time.  You owe me ten bucks, Nick :-)

> >A complete answer with specific times would require calculus, if specific
> >times was what you were looking for.

Otherwise, simple arithmetic would give the wrong answer, as this is obviously
not a linear relationship.

> Yes, that was what I was looking for. More than the obvious... Finding the
> form of the answer requires calculus, but Newton did that once, a long long
> time ago. Finding the answer just requires plugging some numbers into a
> simple formula, if you know the formula.

Present the formula and we will see if it produces the correct answer, or even
 a very close answer.
 
> >4000 lbs of water would require 2.5 hours of 1600 btu/hr energy input, again
> >without considering the loss through the cube walls.

So here is an answer with a specific time; what's your beef?
 
> True, but why are you talking about heating rather than cooling?

Because you asked for it!!!

> Sorry. No $10. Would you like to try again?

Welcher!

>                     *     *     *
> 
> At this point, Mr Stewart changes the subject:
> 
> >Now, if you;
> >  -moved the water inside to the interior sunspace of a 68oF house,
> >  -made the glazing 7'x10 (4 in the entire house on the south side)
> 
>     ie 280 ft^2 of south glazing?
> 
> >  -used a flatter 4"x4'x10' water wall (4 in the entire house), 4" away
> >   from the glazing inside the house,
> 
>     ie about 400 pounds of water? 4" away from the glazing? Transparent
>     water? Hmmm :-) I guess you won't be able to see very clearly out of
>     those windows, but they will let in some light...
> 
> >  -used an R4 glazing when the sun was shining,
> 
> With how much solar transmittance, at what cost, and what happens when the
> argon leaks out?Some of these $40/ft^2 high-R windows have low solar
> transmittance, on the order of 50%. Hmmm, 280 ft^2 x $40/ft^2 = $11,200.

You must be thinking of R8 windows; Where do you get your figures?
I'm not going with low-E due to insolation losses.

> >   and an extra R8 window cover when the sun wasn't shining,
> 
> How would you do that? Movable insulation, at $10/ft^2, installed? 

Again, where do you get your prices?

>Will you move it twice a day religiously? 

Just like you close your windows when it gets to cool at night.

>Will it leak any air around the edges?

Probably, but certainly much less than an outdoor thin film sunspace.
 
> >then you would have a direct, passive solar design that retained the sun's
> >heat energy in the building interior and released it slowly into the
> >interior at night
> 
> Right. Another "direct loss" house :-)

Er, do you have a house that does not lose heat when it is cold outside?

> >Care to try the math?
> 
> Sure. I like this arithmetic. Let me get a cup of coffee... Now I'm back,
> 200 Btu later. I've had this espresso machine for about 3 months now. I
> guess if some people like me find it fun to wiggle the valves on an espresso
> machine with all the steam and noise and watch the milk temp rise with a
> thermometer twice a day, others might find it fun to move window insulation
> all over a house twice a day, for three months... Or, maybe you only move
> the window insulation on a cloudy winter day--but no, you want to do it at
> night too... or you might leave some windows covered all winter, like Pat
> Hennin or Malcolm Wells, in semi-hibernation, huddled in cold dark rooms.
> 
> >assume another 60 ft^2 of window at R4 during the day, adding
> >   another R8 at the other 14 hours.
> 
> OK. That's a long winter day...

You forgot to add R8, you only added R4
 
> >Assume R24 walls and R38 ceiling.
> 
> OK. Let's assume that includes the 2x6's, etc, that act as thermal shunts,
> ie the equivalent thermal resistance of the entire wall is R24. This is not
> just a wall with layers of insulation with R-values that add up to R24
> (which might have a much lower R-value), and the insulation is installed
> properly with no gaps, etc. Are you sure about all that?

Another inch of polyisocyanurate, and various other siding and finishing
materials.
 
> >Assume a two story, 24'x 48' floorspace house with 8' ceilings.
> 
> OK. I guess you mean the footprint on the ground is 24 x 48?

Right.

> So the house volume is 24 x 48 x 16 = 18432 ft^3. 
> >Assume an outside temperature of 36 oF
> 
> OK. (The average will be warmer during daylight, which is good.)
> 
> >Assume 0.25 air changes per hour (optional).
> 
> OK. That's 0.25 x 18432 ft^3/hr = 4608 ft^3/hr or 77 cfm :-) I'll assume
> (I almost said "guess") this is leakage thru walls, etc, without an air-air
> heat exchanger... Will the finished house have a blower door testing spec?

Yes, and the top limit will be 0.25 air changes; I expect alot less.
 
> May we also assume you use a frugal 500 kWh/month of electricity, ie an
> average of about 700 Watts? 

Why does this matter?  I will be using a 2kW photovoltaic system.

> (Steve Baer only uses 80 kWh/mo :-) 

How much do you use, coffee and all?

> This is
> equivalent to 700 x 3.41 = 2387 Btu/hr. Let's add the heat from two
> 300 Btu/hr people inside the house for 16 hours a day, and one 150 Btu/hr
> dog and a 50 Btu/hour cat, full-time. Total internal energy generation:
> 2387(24)+600(16)+200(24) = 72K/day.
> 
> >Assume 100 Btu/hr/ft^2 insolation over 10 hours every day.
> 
> OK.
> 
> >Make an assumption about the thermal storage of the rest of the interior
> >items/material.
> 
> How about 1 lb of water/ft^2 of walls and ceiling? (1/2" drywall has the
> equivalent of 1/2 lb of water/ft^2, so you may need some concrete furniture..)
> I'll make some other assumptions, too.

OK

> I guess we'd want to know the thermal resistance of this house for starters.
> So let's add up the thermal conductances U = Sum(Ai/Ri) and find
> the reciprocal 1/U...
> 
> We have 340 ft^2 of windows, 

4 sets of 10' x 7' windows = 2800 ft^2

>R4 during a 10 hour day (Uday = 340/4 = 85)
> and R8 during a 14 hour night 

R12 at night; R4 + R8

(Unight = 340/8 = 43), with an average daily
> Uwindow = (10xUday+14xUnight)/24 = 60.
> 
> Uwalls = (2(24+48)x16-340)/R24 = 82, and Uceiling = 24x48/R38 = 30.
> 
> And Uinf = 77 Btu/hr-F.
> 
> So U = 60+30+77 = 167 Btu/hr-F and R = 0.006, over 24 hours.

These numbers have to be revisited.

> At night the U value would be lower, after you devotedly travel around
> the house and painstakingly put up your night insulation on every window,
> making sure the edges are ever so carefully sealed, akin to some little
> twice-daily religious experience... Unight = 43+30+77 = 150 Btu/hr-F.
> 
> What will the steady state energy flow be for this house after a long
> string of average December days, with an average amount of sun?
> 
> The energy Ein that flows into this house in a day might be
> 
>   280 ft^2 windows

That should be 2800 ft^2

 x 50% transmission

Try 75%

 x 1000 Btu/ft^2/day = 140K
>                             +  internal energy generation =  72K
>                                                 total Ein = 212K. 
> And the energy Eout that flows out of the house might be
> 
>   24 hours x (68-36) x 167 = 128 K Btu/day.

Of course, these numbers must be revisited as well.
 
> Now, thermal mass: the house has about 3500 ft^2 of walls and ceilings with
> a thermal mass equivalent to 3,500 pounds of water and another 400 pounds
> of actual water.

10' x 4' x 4" is ~13 ft^3.  Water is 62.4 lbs/ft^3.  There are
four water walls.

The water will weigh close to 3250 lbs.

> Let's call this 4,000 Btu/hr-F. 

You need to revisit this number as well.

> So if you make the temp of
> the house, say, 80 F at dusk, at the end of an average day, with some sun,
> after a long string of December days, each with 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun,
> during the night the house will lose approximately 14 hours (80-36) 150 =
> 100K Btu, which might come from the 4,000 Btu/F of thermal mass cooling plus
> 14/24 hours x 72K = 42K of internal energy generation, ie the temperature of
> the house might drop to 80 - (100K-42K)/4K = 65 F at dawn.

You have so many corrections to make before you hit this paragraph that I am
reluctant to mention the ones within.

You have not yet tried to establish the temperature of the water in the
water walls.  Your assumption seems to be 1 oF, though there is no evidence
of how you tried to calculate this.

> How much backup heat will you need in an average year? 

My wife wants a fireplace, so I will likely go with a masonry firestove,
often referred to as a Finnish or Russian fireplace, with outside combustion
air.


> Were you planning to have hot water in this house? How were you planning
> to do that? 

Solar hot water, most likely active.


> A better way to compare heating systems
> might be their yearly heating bills, including the electrical power to run
> the heating system. 

The model I am planning on building (2250 ft^2) required $168 worth of heat for an entire
winter.  Reference "Solar Today", Sept/Oct 1995, article on manufactured house.

> >Some people prefer the passive method, and it is not your perogative
> >to tell them that they are wrong in preferring that.
> 
> Oh sure it is, and it seems kind to tell people, if their passive houses are
> such miserable and expensive performers.

Try the numbers again, then we'll talk.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From pgs@adan.kingston.net Thu May 23 13:38:48 EDT 1996
Article: 783 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!gollum.kingston.net!usenet
From: pgs@adan.kingston.net (Peter Skelton)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:01:22 GMT
Organization: Skelton & Associates
Lines: 65
Sender: pgs@adan.kingston.net
Message-ID: <4nhbtm$a1q@gollum.kingston.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: pgs@adan.kingston.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: strider163.kingston.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49561 alt.solar.thermal:783 alt.energy.renewable:15249 alt.architecture.alternative:6984 bit.listserv.geodesic:4975 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6886

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>>Nick Pine wrote:
>>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
>>> That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
>>> but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...
>>
>>Because that is an electrical term, as opposed to a thermodynamic term.  

OK I'll buy the idea that an energy consultant should be able to do
cookbook thermal transfer, it makes sense. What else should he know? 

Candidates:

Predictive cost ecom\nomics
Cost benefit analysis

Funding and programs

Available materails, equipment and sources

gas ducting
fluid piping
barrier design and construction details
building codes

etc etc.

Clearly no single person can have everything at his fingertips. Most
professions admit specialization (accounting, engineering and medicine
for example). Professionals, even when qualified, tend to limit their
activities to their areas of competence. Our family doctor in Sarnia
would do minor surgery in his office but sent us to specialists for
respiratory problems like asthma. The fellow we have here does the
oposite. 

One of my customers is an architect. He has designed a circulating
pump that runs off the system energy in a heating loop and controls
itself. He's also designed some interesting heat exchangers. Could he
validly call himself an energy consultant? I think so. Could he solve
the test problem? Probably not.

Another acquaintance designs power grids for industry. He is
definitely an energy consultant - all he does is show industry how to
move energy around. He doesn't need to know thermodynamics.

There's an energy consulting firm active here that works out cost
justification for cogeneration. They know where to get money and how,
what sorts of industry can use the waste heat, land management. . . .
There might not be a thermodynamically competent person in the place,
they can afford to hire someone like Stone & Webster when they want,
but they are definitely consultants in energy.

To define what an energy consultant is we would have to list
everything one might do and then decide what size of subset a person
would have to master to qualify. It is a dounting task.

All that being said, I can imagine many situations where the simple
test posted might sort the wheat from the chaff.

Peter Skelton



From armb@setanta.demon.co.uk Thu May 23 13:38:48 EDT 1996
Article: 784 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!armb
From: armb@setanta.demon.co.uk (Alan Braggins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: 17 May 1996 12:49:32 GMT
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <ARMB.96May17134933@setanta.setanta.demon.co.uk>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net>
	<4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU>
	<4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: setanta.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: setanta.demon.co.uk
In-reply-to: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu's message of 16 May 1996 04:52:30 -0400
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15250 sci.energy:49562 alt.architecture.alternative:6985 alt.solar.thermal:784 bit.listserv.geodesic:4976 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6889

In article <4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> >  Is it true that 1 watt = 3.412 BTU/hr?  If so, have I got it right that
> >  R-1 (International) degC.m^2/W = R-5.678 (US) degF.hr.ft^2/BTU?
> 
> I think so.

% /usr/bin/units
you have: kelvin m2 / watt
you want: rankine hour ft2 / btu
        * 1.752557e+00

you have: m2 / watt
you want: hour ft2 / btu
        * 3.154603e+00

Either I'm wrong about Rankine being to Fahrenheit as Kelvin is to
Celsius, I'm misunderstanding units output, or you have used 9/5
where you should have used 5/9.


> Or would those be degrees K, in that particular alphabetical procession? 

For temperature _differences_, Kelvin is the same as degrees Centigrade.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:48 EDT 1996
Article: 785 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: 17 May 1996 12:28:37 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <4ni9fl$sgm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4nhbtm$a1q@gollum.kingston.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49566 alt.solar.thermal:785 alt.energy.renewable:15254 alt.architecture.alternative:6986 bit.listserv.geodesic:4977 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6891

Peter Skelton <pgs@adan.kingston.net> wrote:
 
>OK I'll buy the idea that an energy consultant should be able to do
>cookbook thermal transfer, it makes sense. What else should he know? 

Interesting question...

>Candidates:
>
>Predictive cost economics
>Cost benefit analysis

Sure. Interest formulas, sinking funds, IRR, etc.

>Funding and programs

I guess so... Not my interest, but...

>Available materails, equipment and sources

Sure.

>gas ducting
>fluid piping

I guess so. Know a few details, and leave the rest to plumbers, etc?
("Please make the ducts bigger, so we can use less powerful blowers.")

>barrier design and construction details
>building codes
>etc etc.

Yes...

>Clearly no single person can have everything at his fingertips. Most
>professions admit specialization (accounting, engineering and medicine
>for example). Professionals, even when qualified, tend to limit their
>activities to their areas of competence. Our family doctor in Sarnia
>would do minor surgery in his office but sent us to specialists for
>respiratory problems like asthma. The fellow we have here does the oposite. 

Pediatricians can do brain surgery in my state, if they want to some
afternoon. And EE PEs can design bridges. It's legal... 

>One of my customers is an architect. He has designed a circulating
>pump that runs off the system energy in a heating loop and controls
>itself. He's also designed some interesting heat exchangers. Could he
>validly call himself an energy consultant? I think so.

So do I :-)

>Another acquaintance designs power grids for industry. He is
>definitely an energy consultant - all he does is show industry how to
>move energy around. He doesn't need to know thermodynamics.

I have a feeling he might be familiar with Ohm's law...

>There's an energy consulting firm active here that works out cost
>justification for cogeneration. They know where to get money and how,
>what sorts of industry can use the waste heat, land management. . . .
>There might not be a thermodynamically competent person in the place,
>they can afford to hire someone like Stone & Webster when they want,
>but they are definitely consultants in energy.

Yes, but... What we are talking about here is not "thermodynamics" in
my book. When somebody uses that term I think Carnot and Rankine and
Maxwell and Enthalpy and calculus with difficult integrals. For solar
house heating, I think Ohm and arithmetic. With a few old dusty formulae
>from  Newton. Newton's law of cooling, aka Ohm's law for heatflow. And
a single simple exponential formula, at best.

>To define what an energy consultant is we would have to list
>everything one might do and then decide what size of subset a person
>would have to master to qualify. It is a dounting task.

Somebody offers a credential like that... as a "certified energy manager"?
 
I guess one would want to know some legal and bureaucratic stuff too,
like OSHA. The US patent bar exam has a lot of questions like 

   If you appeal a decision related to a notice of infringement in the
   District Court, for the third time within 7 months, and another party
   or parties appeal to the assistant patent commissioner or his designated
   assistant by the third Tuesday in an even numbered month, how many days
   do you have to file an appeal to that action, and with whom?

>All that being said, I can imagine many situations where the simple
>test posted might sort the wheat from the chaff.

Me too.

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Microprocessor hardware, memory, ASIC, and computer design. Telecommunication
system design. Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost,
residential solar heating and cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior
Member, IEEE. Registered US Patent Agent. Fluent in French.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:49 EDT 1996
Article: 786 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Sample solar problems
Date: 17 May 1996 09:59:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 331
Message-ID: <4ni0n6$ql8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319C008D.4D44@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49569 alt.solar.thermal:786 alt.energy.renewable:15256 alt.architecture.alternative:6987 bit.listserv.geodesic:4978 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6892

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote:

>>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
>>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>>Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
>>person who answers it correctly.
 
By the way, I have only seen 3 numerical answers to this simple question
so far. Two people got part 1 correct, and one has almost solved part 2 using
simple arithmetic, but there's still a chance for the right person to earn
$10 in 2 minutes with a couple of back of the envelope calculations... This
might also be a rare opportunity for someone else to get paid to learn.

Paul Erdos used to do this sort of thing with much harder math problems.
He would offer a $100 prize for the solution to some long-standing research
problem, and some grad student who might already be interested in the problem
would get more interested and work for 3 months, day and night, and solve the
problem, and pocket the money, and publish a paper, and feel very happy, and
the science of mathematics would be advanced :-) Erdos offered different
rewards for different problems, depending on how difficult they were, from
$10 problems that took a few weeks to $1,000 problems that might take 10 years
to solve, or might take a lifetime...

>> >The water in the cube would rise to a steady state temperature of
>> >36 +80 = 116 oF if the energy input were continuous.
 
>> Perhaps, but recall the problem:
 
>>>>the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the glazed side of the box. 

>>>>And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?

>>>When shaded, the water in the cube would fall over time to 36oF.

>I showed how it would change over time.  You owe me ten bucks, Nick :-)

Nope. That answer is insufficient and superficial. I'm the judge.

>> >A complete answer with specific times would require calculus, if specific
>> >times was what you were looking for.

>Otherwise, simple arithmetic would give the wrong answer, as this is obviously
>not a linear relationship.

>> Yes, that was what I was looking for. More than the obvious... Finding the
>> form of the answer requires calculus, but Newton did that once, a long long
>> time ago. Finding the answer just requires plugging some numbers into a
>> simple formula, if you know the formula.

>Present the formula and we will see if it produces the correct answer, or even
>a very close answer.

Nice try :-) How will "we" know that? The formula IS most of the answer...
Or an approximate arithmetic equivalent...

>>>4000 lbs of water would require 2.5 hours of 1600 btu/hr energy input, again
>>>without considering the loss through the cube walls.
 
>So here is an answer with a specific time; what's your beef?

It has nothing to do with the problem.

>> At this point, Mr Stewart changes the subject:
 
>> >Now, if you;
>> >  -moved the water inside to the interior sunspace of a 68oF house,
>> >  -made the glazing 7'x10 (4 in the entire house on the south side)
>>     ie 280 ft^2 of south glazing?
>> >  -used a flatter 4"x4'x10' water wall (4 in the entire house), 4" away
>> >   from the glazing inside the house,
>>     ie about 400 pounds of water? 4" away from the glazing? Transparent
>>     water? Hmmm :-) I guess you won't be able to see very clearly out of
>>     those windows, but they will let in some light...
>> >  -used an R4 glazing when the sun was shining,
 
>> With how much solar transmittance, at what cost, and what happens when the
>> argon leaks out? Some of these $40/ft^2 high-R windows have low solar
>> transmittance, on the order of 50%. Hmmm, 280 ft^2 x $40/ft^2 = $11,200.

>You must be thinking of R8 windows; Where do you get your figures?

I don't remember. Anderson, Pella? Popular Science? Perhaps that's R8.
What brand of windows will you be using and how much do they cost?

>I'm not going with low-E due to insolation losses.

Good. I wonder what happened to your UV concerns.

>> >   and an extra R8 window cover when the sun wasn't shining,
 
>> How would you do that? Movable insulation, at $10/ft^2, installed? 

>Again, where do you get your prices?

The Shelter Institute. What will you pay? References, please.

>>Will you move it twice a day religiously? 

>Just like you close your windows when it gets to cool at night.

I hardly ever touch my windows. 

>>Will it leak any air around the edges?
 
>Probably, but certainly much less than an outdoor thin film sunspace.

I don't think so, if the sunspace is made from a continuous single piece of
plastic film, 16 x 20'. And sunspace leakiness only matters 6 hours a day.
  
>> >then you would have a direct, passive solar design that retained the sun's
>> >heat energy in the building interior and released it slowly into the
>> >interior at night
 
>> Right. Another "direct loss" house :-)

>Er, do you have a house that does not lose heat when it is cold outside?

No. But this is a numerical thing, and the less the better at night, and
direct gain houses leak lots of heat to the outdoors at night and during
a week without sun thru their low thermal resistance glazing between the
living area and the outdoors. 
 
>> >Care to try the math?
 
>> Sure. I like this arithmetic. Let me get a cup of coffee... Now I'm back,
>> 200 Btu later. I've had this espresso machine for about 3 months now. I
>> guess if some people like me find it fun to wiggle the valves on an espresso
>> machine with all the steam and noise and watch the milk temp rise with a
>> thermometer twice a day, others might find it fun to move window insulation
>> all over a house twice a day, for three months... Or, maybe you only move
>> the window insulation on a cloudy winter day--but no, you want to do it at
>> night too... or you might leave some windows covered all winter, like Pat
>> Hennin or Malcolm Wells, in semi-hibernation, huddled in cold dark rooms.
 
>> >assume another 60 ft^2 of window at R4 during the day, adding
>> >   another R8 at the other 14 hours.
 
>You forgot to add R8, you only added R4

Oops. Would you describe this R8 window insulation, Will? Who makes it,
how much the material costs, how much installation costs, what the materials
are, how it is operated, and how the edge air leaks affect the R8 rating?
 
>> >Assume 0.25 air changes per hour (optional).
 
>> OK. That's 0.25 x 18432 ft^3/hr = 4608 ft^3/hr or 77 cfm :-) I'll assume
>> (I almost said "guess") this is leakage thru walls, etc, without an air-air
>> heat exchanger... Will the finished house have a blower door testing spec?

>Yes, and the top limit will be 0.25 air changes; I expect alot less.

Will the house be pressure tested when finished and guaranteed to have
less than 5 ACH at 50 Pascals, consistent with natural air infiltration of
< 0.25 ACH, using the usual rule of dividing the pressure test spec by 20?
The best Avis homes informally tested by Penn State, as I recall from a
go-around with Kurt Smith, Lyle Rawlings and Marc Rosenbaum, came out at
2.9 ACH at 50 Pa.

>> May we also assume you use a frugal 500 kWh/month of electricity, ie an
>> average of about 700 Watts? 
 
>Why does this matter?  I will be using a 2kW photovoltaic system.

Marc points out that many superinsulated houses are more electrically heated
than solar heated. No, that doesn't matter much. Money matters, of course.
Eg the yearly backup heating bill, and the non-recurring cost.

>> (Steve Baer only uses 80 kWh/mo :-) 
 
>How much do you use, coffee and all?

About 600 kWh/month. Mostly for my refrigerator, electric water heater and PC.
I just bought a laptop, which should reduce this. 

>> I guess we'd want to know the thermal resistance of this house for starters.
>> So let's add up the thermal conductances U = Sum(Ai/Ri) and find
>> the reciprocal 1/U...
 
>> We have 340 ft^2 of windows, 

>4 sets of 10' x 7' windows = 2800 ft^2

Let's see. 4 x 10 x 7 = 280. I just did that on my calculator to be sure.
A 2,800 ft^2 window would be 5 stories tall and 50' wide.
 
>>R4 during a 10 hour day (Uday = 340/4 = 85)
>> and R8 during a 14 hour night 

>R12 at night; R4 + R8

My mistake.

>(Unight = 340/8 = 43), with an average daily
>> Uwindow = (10xUday+14xUnight)/24 = 60.
 
>> Uwalls = (2(24+48)x16-340)/R24 = 82, and Uceiling = 24x48/R38 = 30.
 
>> And Uinf = 77 Btu/hr-F.
 
>> So U = 60+30+77 = 167 Btu/hr-F and R = 0.006, over 24 hours.

>These numbers have to be revisited.

Agreed.

>> At night the U value would be lower, after you devotedly travel around
>> the house and painstakingly put up your night insulation on every window,
>> making sure the edges are ever so carefully sealed, akin to some little
>> twice-daily religious experience... Unight = 43+30+77 = 150 Btu/hr-F.
 
>> What will the steady state energy flow be for this house after a long
>> string of average December days, with an average amount of sun?
 
>> The energy Ein that flows into this house in a day might be
 
>>   280 ft^2 windows :-)

Hmm. A new way to measure energy :-)

>That should be 2800 ft^2

I don't think so.

> x 50% transmission

>Try 75%

That won't change the picture much.

> x 1000 Btu/ft^2/day = 140K
>>                             +  internal energy generation =  72K
>>                                                 total Ein = 212K. 
>> And the energy Eout that flows out of the house might be
 
>>   24 hours x (68-36) x 167 = 128 K Btu/day.

>Of course, these numbers must be revisited as well.

Agreed.

>>Now, thermal mass: the house has about 3,500 ft^2 of walls and ceilings with
>>a thermal mass equivalent to 3,500 pounds of water and another 400 pounds
>>of actual water.

>10' x 4' x 4" is ~13 ft^3.  Water is 62.4 lbs/ft^3.  There are
>four water walls.

>The water will weigh close to 3250 lbs.

My mistake again.

>> Let's call this 4,000 Btu/hr-F. 

>You need to revisit this number as well.

Somebody should. 

>> So if you make the temp of
>> the house, say, 80 F at dusk, at the end of an average day, with some sun,
>> after a long string of December days, each with 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun,
>> during the night the house will lose approximately 14 hours (80-36) 150 =
>> 100K Btu, which might come from the 4,000 Btu/F of thermal mass cooling plus
>> 14/24 hours x 72K = 42K of internal energy generation, ie the temperature of
>> the house might drop to 80 - (100K-42K)/4K = 65 F at dawn.

>You have so many corrections to make before you hit this paragraph that I am
>reluctant to mention the ones within.

Oh go ahead, mention them.

>You have not yet tried to establish the temperature of the water in the
>water walls. 

Oh no. I did that.

>Your assumption seems to be 1 oF, though there is no evidence
>of how you tried to calculate this.

That's pretty cold. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. I don't
understand what you are saying at all here Will. And I didn't assume
anything like that. I assumed the water walls were the same temperature
as the air and everything else in the house.

>> How much backup heat will you need in an average year? 

>My wife wants a fireplace, so I will likely go with a masonry firestove,
>often referred to as a Finnish or Russian fireplace, with outside combustion
>air.
 
How much backup heat will you need in an average year? 

>> Were you planning to have hot water in this house? How were you planning
>> to do that? 

>Solar hot water, most likely active.

How much will that cost to buy and operate, and how much backup heat
will you need for the hot water?

>> A better way to compare heating systems
>> might be their yearly heating bills, including the electrical power to run
>> the heating system. 

>The model I am planning on building (2250 ft^2) required $168 worth of heat for an entire
>winter.  Reference "Solar Today", Sept/Oct 1995, article on manufactured house.

Sounds nice. As Steve Baer says, the greatest discovery of
solar investigators may have been that lots of insulation is good :-)

>> >Some people prefer the passive method, and it is not your perogative
>> >to tell them that they are wrong in preferring that.
 
>> Oh sure it is, and it seems kind to tell people, if their passive houses are
>> such miserable and expensive performers.

>Try the numbers again, then we'll talk.

It's your house, Will. Try the numbers again yourself, if you like.

I'll be happy to look at them.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:49 EDT 1996
Article: 787 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: 17 May 1996 12:46:29 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4niah5$sn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU> <4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <ARMB.96May17134933@setanta.setanta.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15258 sci.energy:49572 alt.solar.thermal:787 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6897

Alan Braggins <armb@setanta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
   [someone else wrote...]
>> >  Is it true that 1 watt = 3.412 BTU/hr?  If so, have I got it right that
>> >  R-1 (International) degC.m^2/W = R-5.678 (US) degF.hr.ft^2/BTU?
>> 
>> I think so.

Let me try this step by step, with a calculator.

A 1 m x 1 m wall with a metric R-value of 1 will pass 1 Watt of heat
if the temperature difference is 1 C.

So a 10.76 ft^2 wall will pass 3.41 Btu/hr of heat if the temperature
difference is 1.8 F. OK?

So that wall will pass 3.41/1.8 Btu/hr with a temperature difference if 1 F. 

And a 1 ft^2 wall like that will pass 3.41/1.8/10.76 = 0.176 Btu/hr.
(Numerically the same as the metric R-value of an R1 window...)

So that wall has a US R-value of 5.68.

>% /usr/bin/units
>you have: kelvin m2 / watt
>you want: rankine hour ft2 / btu
>        * 1.752557e+00
>
>you have: m2 / watt
>you want: hour ft2 / btu
>        * 3.154603e+00
>
>Either I'm wrong about Rankine being to Fahrenheit as Kelvin is to
>Celsius, I'm misunderstanding units output, or you have used 9/5
>where you should have used 5/9.

I've never used that unix function, altho it looks useful.
Anyone know the name of the one that turns tabs into spaces?
 
>> Or would those be degrees K, in that particular alphabetical procession? 
>
>For temperature _differences_, Kelvin is the same as degrees Centigrade.

But you must call it by the right name, no? :-)

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu May 23 13:38:49 EDT 1996
Article: 788 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!uunet!uunet!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 01:35:43 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <319D61AF.1AA@patriot.net>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <31909021.1F8A@patriot.net> <4mqir7$egq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net> <4ninj8$mae@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

gcp wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> 
> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >>
> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> [etc - snip!]
> >Thermal storage does not 'cripple' the performance of a sunspace, it simply evens out the temperature
> >swings.  Brick is only one of several materials that can be utilized, including even water.
> >>
> >>    One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
> >>    the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
> >>    virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.
> (sounds like a solar panel to me :-)

Yep.

> There is a philosophical difference here that boils down to whether
> you want the sunspace to be part of the living space.
> If you like sunspaces, fine!

Thank you!  I've been trying to get the point across that some people
have their own preferences.

> I am going to suggest that a dedicated sunspace need not be part of
> the design for space heating.
> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,
> even for houses orientated to minimise passive solar gain, addittional
> energy costs for space heating can be made insignificant.  With
> windows available now (R-10+) and orientation to make best use of
> winter sun I think it is possible to reduce space heating costs to
> zero in an otherwise normal house.  These houses cost little more than
> a normal house and that is paid for quickly.
> Then the main effort needed is to reduce lighting and water heating
> costs.
> On the latter a recent design here in the UK (Scotland in particular)
> has aimed at reducing cost rather than increasing efficiency of a
> solar panel.  Most panels have a dual circuit arrangement, because of
> problems of freezing. This design uses a type of rubber, in a single
> circuit, to allow the water to safely freeze!  The cost is
> considerably reduced and it has survived one of the hottest summers
> and coldest winters here in recent times.
> Any comments?

These have been used in the US, and I heard of one story
that a hotel in the West used one in the 1800s
The cost is minimal, due to the lack of expensive materials and controls.
The efficiency is low, but the sun is free, so what's to complain about?

> >> >I'm presently looking for windows that block UV radiation...
> >> >but are not low-E (because of the amount of infrared radiation they block).
> >>
> >> You seem to be seriously confused, Will. For solar heating, blocking IR is
> >> GOOD, as is passing visible light...
> 
> >I don't want to block incoming infrared, which the low-E glazings do.  Check 
> >the stats for window comparisons at the NREL site.
> Can you provide a URL

http://www.nrel.gov/documents/erec_fact_sheets/acrobat.html
"Advances in window glazings"
"Energy Efficient Windows"
(and for Nick, "Sunspace Basics", though they include sunspaces that he 
disagrees with)

One thing neither of these files have that I remember seeing is a table comparing
solar conductance (SC) by type of glazing and layers.  I'll see if I can locate it.

> >> >UV will fade furniture
> >> Something fades furniture next to south-facing windows... Is it the visible
> >> light or the heat or the tiny amoutn of UV that gets through the glass?
> >> At any rate, an intelligently-designed solar home (not yours, apparently)
> >> will not have a lot of glass opening into the living space.
> You are right normal glass does not sufficiently block UV (you may
> need to reduce the higher energy range of the visible spectrum to
> reduce fading aswell - but you are better to check on this) although
> you wont get a tan in a hurry.
> I don't understand your aversion to low-E windows though.  The amount
> of IR you stop getting in is more than made up for by the amount you
> stop getting out (unless it is hotter outside - in which case you
> probably want to keep it that way!)  The way it works is that light
> comes in as high energy visible (or UV) is absorbed by amongst other
> things your furniture (fading it) then re-radiated as lower energy IR
> which the window does not transmit as well - low-E only makes this
> better.

Some of the low-E windows I have seen lately have been close to what
Nick had mentioned; one was SC=.59 and another 'heat mirror' SC=.41

These sorts of figures *do* concern me.  If you have another take, I'd 
like to hear it, especially if it has to to with spectral-selective
glazings.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From schmidtrw@ornl.gov Thu May 23 13:38:50 EDT 1996
Article: 789 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!darwin.sura.net!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!IDTPC1
From: schmidtrw@ornl.gov (Russell W. Schmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: Re: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 17:13:19 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Inc.
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <4nq5t1$6rg@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4n4vds$6nl@news.whidbey.com> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: idtpc1.etdw.ornl.gov
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15264 sci.energy:49600 alt.architecture.alternative:6993 alt.solar.thermal:789 bit.listserv.geodesic:4989

In article <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>
>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water 
>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>
I do not claim to be an "energy expert", but this problem was good for a brief 
diversion. Since no other numeric answers have shown up (yet - our news feed 
seems to be a little slow), I will post mine:

Since this is a "back of the envelope" evaluation, and Nick has given 
daily averages, I will ignore the daily fluctuations in ambient 
temperature and in insolation, and also assume that the insolation 
value given is the net energy to the water.

It does not matter what water temperature you start with - the question 
was what is the "steady-state" temperature of the water. For a steady 
state, the energy in must balancethe energy out, so 
insolation (solar energy in) = heat loss.

QHL = U*A*dT = A/R *dT = sum(A1/R1 + A2/R2) * deltaT     heat loss rate

      sum(A1/R1 + A2/R2) =    (5*4'*4')/(20*hr*ft^2*F/BTU) 
                            + (  4'*4')/( 1*hr*ft^2*F/BTU)
                         = 20 BTU/(hr*F)

QHL = 20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT

QI = IR * A       Insolation rate

   = 1000 BTU/(ft^2*day) * 4'*4' = 16,000 BTU/day = 666.67 BTU/hr

QHL = QI for steady state temperature

20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT = 666.67 BTU/hr

Therefore deltaT = 666.67/20 F = 33.33 F

And the steady-state water temperature = 33.33 F + 36 F = 69.33 F

If the window pane is shaded (without adding any extra insulation)
you simply get a heat loss rate as calculated above:

     QHL = 20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT
        where deltaT = TW - TA  (Water Temp - Ambient Temp)

This heat loss cools the water, thereby reducing its temperature:

     QHL = M*Cp*dTW/dtime  
  (Since QHL is a rate, this gives a rate of temperature change)
      where M  = mass of the water
            Cp = heat capacity of the water
            TW = temperature of the water

 M = 4'*4'*4' * 62.4 lb/ft^3 = 3993.6 lb or about 4000 lb of water
 Cp = 1 BTU/(lb F)
     (since this is a rough calc, I will ignore the small change in density 
      and heat capacity with temperature)

Setting the two equations for QHL equal and applying a bit of algebra, 
you get the following differential equation:

  dTW/dtime = (TW-TA)/200  F/hr

Now - remembering all that lovely differential equations stuff (not
likely :-) or looking in the back of the book, you find a solution like

   T = c*e^(-kt)

Using the initial conditional calculated above, we get

   TW = 33.33*e^(-t/200) + 36   for TW in Fahrenheit and t in hours

This describes an exponential temperature decrease - the rate of cooling
slows as the temperature difference between the air and the water 
decreases. So, the water cools by about one sixth of a degree F per hour
at first, with the rate slowly declining. After 10 days, the water 
temperature is still about 10 degrees F above the ambient temperature.

This answer ignores the daily fluctuations in both the ambient
temperature and (for part 1 above) the insolation rate. Both of these
can be modeled reasonably well using a sine function:

Insolation = pi/2 * 12 hr Avg insolation * sin(hour*pi/12)

Ambient Temp = AvgTemp + (TempRange/2)*SIN((Time/12)*PI())

These functions can be used in the above calculations, leading to much
more fun with calculus. Since I have Real Work (tm) to do, I will leave
the detailed solution as an exercise for the under-employed.

Russ Schmidt    <idt@ornl.gov>
Lockheed Martin Energy Systems
Oak Ridge, TN  37831-7294



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:50 EDT 1996
Article: 790 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: MAKE BIG MONEY FAST!!!
Date: 19 May 1996 22:05:47 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4nok1r$cmj@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6915 sci.energy:49649 alt.energy.renewable:15277 alt.solar.thermal:790 alt.architecture.alternative:7003

  Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
  temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
  sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
  of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
  of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
  Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
  person who answers it correctly.
 
Still only 3 numerical answers to this simple question so far. Two people got
part 1 correct, and one has almost solved part 2 using simple arithmetic, but
there's still a chance for the right person to earn $10 in 2 minutes with
a couple of back of the envelope calculations... This might also be a rare
opportunity for someone else to get paid to learn :-)

Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F and
a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F. 

Another slightly less accurate way to do this is to find the energy lost
during the first hour, assuming the interior temperature is constant over
the hour, find out how much the thermal mass has to cool to supply that
heat loss, find the new interior temperature, find the energy lost in the
second hour, and so on...

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.
 
 					  Tom Smith 
 


From armb@setanta.demon.co.uk Thu May 23 13:38:50 EDT 1996
Article: 791 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!!armb
From: armb@setanta.demon.co.uk (Alan Braggins)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: 20 May 1996 11:30:16 +0100
Organization: Setanta Technology
Lines: 61
Sender: armb@setanta.setanta.demon.co.uk
Message-ID: <7zd93z3adj.fsf@setanta.setanta.demon.co.uk>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU>
	<4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
	<ARMB.96May17134933@setanta.setanta.demon.co.uk>
	<4niah5$sn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: setanta.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: setanta.demon.co.uk
In-reply-to: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu's message of 17 May 1996 12:46:29 -0400
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15282 sci.energy:49667 alt.solar.thermal:791 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6916

In article <4niah5$sn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

> A 1 m x 1 m wall with a metric R-value of 1 will pass 1 Watt of heat
> if the temperature difference is 1 C.
> 
[Correct working]
> 
> So that wall has a US R-value of 5.68.
> 
> >% /usr/bin/units
> >you have: kelvin m2 / watt
> >you want: rankine hour ft2 / btu
> >        * 1.752557e+00
> >
> >you have: m2 / watt
> >you want: hour ft2 / btu
> >        * 3.154603e+00
> >
> >Either I'm wrong about Rankine being to Fahrenheit as Kelvin is to
> >Celsius

I was, and therefore I was using 9/5 instead of 5/9,
as I should have realised _before_ posting, instead of
on my way home for the weekend.

% /usr/bin/units
you have: kelvin   
you want: rankine
        * 5.555556e-01
        / 1.800000e+00

That 1.8 is the right number, wrong direction.

[Why didn't I just use F in the first place? As the man page says
    "units only does multiplicative scale changes.  Thus  it  can
     convert  Kelvin  to  Rankine, but not Celsius to Fahrenheit.",
which is what led me into error in the first place.]


> I've never used that unix function, altho it looks useful.
> Anyone know the name of the one that turns tabs into spaces?

% man expand
 
EXPAND(1)                USER COMMANDS                  EXPAND(1)
 
NAME
     expand, unexpand - expand TAB characters  to  SPACE  charac-
     ters, and vice versa
 
SYNOPSIS
     expand [ -tabstop ] [ -tab1,tab2,...,tabn ] [  filename  ...
     ]
 
     unexpand [ -a ] [ filename ...  ]


> >> Or would those be degrees K, in that particular alphabetical procession? 
> But you must call it by the right name, no? :-)
Well, if you are going to be picky, it's K not degrees K.



From Gerhard.Beinlich@t-online.de Thu May 23 13:38:51 EDT 1996
Article: 792 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.ecrc.de!news00.btx.dtag.de!not-for-mail
From: Gerhard.Beinlich@t-online.de (Gerhard Beinlich)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: desalinization
Date: 14 May 1996 19:28:53 GMT
Organization: Telekom Online Internet Gateway
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4namtl$7a6@news00.btx.dtag.de>
References: <31879FD0.64D9@cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Sender: 04051430854-0001@t-online.de (Gerhard Beinlich)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1I [de] (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: jxlk@cruzio.com

Re: desalinization

Sorry, what does "desalinization" means?

ciao

Gerd



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu May 23 13:38:51 EDT 1996
Article: 793 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!newshub.csu.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 07:42:43 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 219
Message-ID: <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net> <4ninj8$mae@biffo.sol.co.uk> <319D61AF.1AA@patriot.net> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-1.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >gcp wrote:
> >> William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >> [etc - snip!]
> 
> Good snip.
> 
> >> >>    One could shorten the warm-up time of the enclosure and increase
> >> >>    the amount of heat delivered to the rooms by making the enclosure
> >> >>    virtually massless--by greatly reducing its dynamic thermal capacity.
> 
> >> (sounds like a solar panel to me :-)
> >
> >Yep.
> 
> But they are also very expensive, and normally live on the roof, which makes
> them fundamentally different from these inexpensive sunspaces. 

Sure, but they will last 10-30 times longer than a sheet of mylar stapled to a
wooden frame.  Before someone makes a decision about which route they will take,
they have to consider whether or not weather considerations prevent the long term
use of mylar staple (or nailed or glued, etc) sheets.  In my area (Washington, DC),
we get just enough high wind bursts every year to make a flimsy sunspace impractical
for serious consideration.

Even if the force of the wind didn't carry it off in the first 2 months, wind-swept
items, such as sticks or other debris, would puncture and rip the surface, 
requiring replacement or unsightly patching.

These panels
> are often heavy boxes added on to houses, mounted on brackets, shipped from
> afar at great expense and manufactured in relatively small quantities, with
> ducts and plumbing that go through the house roof, and pumps and blowers
> that eat lots of electrical energy every year. 

You yourself said that heat distribution from your solar closet would require
HVAC elements that required electricity (controls, blower, etc.)

(Yes, that electrical energy
> can come from PVs, altho they are very expensive now and usually waste 90%
> of the sun that falls on them, the very same solar energy we are trying to
> collect with the add-on boxes :-)

Fuel costs with solar are minimal :-)
 
> Some solar air heating panels have low thermal mass. Water heating panels
> have more thermal mass. I saw a new rooftop-type water heating panel for
> sale for about $40/ft^2 with lots of intentional thermal mass. It was about
> 4x8x1' thick, and contained 30 gallons of water, a batch heater with no
> insulation between the water and the absorber plate and the glazing as
> far as I could tell. They also had a 50 gallon model...

This is only one particular implementation of a water-based solar heating
panel.  In cold climates, water storage is almost always contained within
the structure.

> Brick sunspaces have LOTS of thermal mass behind glass with no night
> insulation, as do many Trombe walls and direct gain houses. This is a
> very inefficient way to heat a house in a partly cloudy climate, because
> the thermal mass stores lots of solar heat during the day, and most of that
> solar heat disappears through the glazing at night. 

This ignores the sunspaces with insulating materials, that are tracked and
easy to move.  Just look through you back issues of Home Energy or Home Power
for examples of window coverings between R4 and R8.

>During a week without
> sun, an isolated sunspace can just get cold, even if it is full of bricks,
> which is OK. But a Trombe wall or a direct gain house with south glazing in
> the living space will lose a lot of backup house heat to the outside world
> through the relatively low thermal resistance of the glazing.

This ignores the use of insulating curtains to prevent exactly that.  Too bad
you could'nt have come down this weekend for our yearly Tour of Solar Homes.
One house I visited had virtually the entire south wall covered in windows (R3)
with two large track-guided R8 shades (4 sheets of reflective mylar with air 
spaces).  The house had less than .2 ACH, was heavily insulated, and the 
occupants said their fuel bills were less than $30/month in winter.

> >> There is a philosophical difference here that boils down to whether
> >> you want the sunspace to be part of the living space.
> >> If you like sunspaces, fine!
> >
> >Thank you!  I've been trying to get the point across that some people
> >have their own preferences.
> 
> Of course people have preferences and that's fine. But let's recognize
> that that's a lifestyle choice involving a compromise with aesthetics and
> money and fossil or wood fuel consumption. Let's not drag in false physics.

Let's not focus on one or two aspects of physics, and forget about infiltration,
re-radiation, and convection.  That would give one false results in any
thermal energy equation trying to determine overall Qin to Qout.

> A low-thermal-mass sunspace could be a commercial plastic film greenhouse
> adjacent to a house, costing 50 cents/ft^2, put up by 1 person in one day,
> more like a tent than a building. The glazing might be poly film costing
> 5 cents/ft^2, with a 3 year guarantee, changed every 3 years in an hour,
> and recycled. 

If it withstands weather conditions for more than 3 months and your neighbors
still talk to you.
 
> Or it might be flat very clear polycarbonate glazing, costing $1/ft^2,
> with a 10+ year solar lifetime, that comes in rolls 49" wide, so it might
> be simply attached to 2x6s on 4' centers in a simple lean-to sunspace that
> forms the weather south wall of a house.

Again, you have the serious concerns of infiltration, neglible insulation (>RI)
and weather to overcome, not to mention the sickly yellow appearance after 
a year in the sun.  If that's not a problem, by all means, knock yourself out.
  
> Another way to make a low-thermal-mass sunspace is to make the steep south
> roof of a house with the same single-layer corrugated polycarbonate plastic,
> with an insulated attic floor. Again lower first cost than normal
> construction (no shingles, no tarpaper, no sheathing, and 4' x 12' panels
> that attach with a few hex head screws) and it can collect solar energy,
> with a low power fan that blows warm air from the peak of the attic down
> a large cheap uninsulated duct (eg a poly film tube duct that costs 50
> cents per linear foot), into the house when the sun is shining. House air
> might return to the attic through a $200 2' x 2' motorized damper that lets
> daylight into the house when it is open. The value of such daylight might
> be $200/year of electrical power savings, vs the fluorescent equivalent,
> if it is well distributed inside the house, as well as the aesthetic value
> of daylighting.

One point you seem to miss over and over is the lack of a thermal 'flywheel' by
which to dampen the large temperature swings large amounts of solar gain can
induce.  If you lessen this by reducing the solar insolation received, then 
you lessen the amount of solar heat your structure can utilize.  The lessons
learned by overheating in the day have been hard won; don't ignore them by
offering simplistic paper drills that have too many questionable assumptions.

I you have a separate thermal storage, such as your solar closet, then active
controls and blowers are necessary.  I don't consider that to be undesirable,
but I myself prefer to use passive techniques, at least for the majority of 
my space heating.  

> >> I am going to suggest that a dedicated sunspace need not be part of
> >> the design for space heating.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> >> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,
> >> even for houses orientated to minimise passive solar gain, addittional
> >> energy costs for space heating can be made insignificant.
> 
> Absolutely true. But at what price?

Perhaps this is the crux of your argument.  I will address this as it applies 
to me.

1.  The house I am in the middle of finalizing will have a 'normal' amount of
windowspace.  The south side, however, will have approximately 50% of the
windowspace.  My wife prefers a certain level of natural light, so I must
satisfy her desires as well.  My first inclination was to have an earth-
sheltered home, with full exposure to the south, but she felt that would
be like living at the mouth of a cave.  

So there will be no added costs for windowspace or window type. 

2.  I will be using the same amount of window insulation that I would
if I didn't have solar gain, given that I am an energy-efficiency nut.
Therefore, no additional costs will be incurred for extra window
insulation.

3.  The only added cost will be for the installation of thermal storage
containers next to the south facing windows.  Previous installations have
totalled $2000.  Given the thermal flywheel effect, they will pay for 
themselves in around than ten years.

4. I still intend to have supplemental heat, as well as cooling.  I am in the
final stages of determining if I will have a masonry heater stove and a small,
efficient window A/C or whether I will have a simpler efficient fireplace and 
a small ground-source heat pump.  My wife insists on *some* kind of fireplace.

> >> With windows available now (R-10+) and orientation to make best use of
> >> winter sun I think it is possible to reduce space heating costs to
> >> zero in an otherwise normal house.
> 
> I agree, IF you are willing to live with very few windows.

I could, but my wife won't.  :-|
 
> >> These houses cost little more than a normal house
> 
> Whoa!!!
> 
> >> Then the main effort needed is to reduce lighting and water heating costs.
> 
> True. And how do you reduce water heating costs? Superinsulation doesn't
> heat water. Can we try to look at more of the whole picture here, and make
> new houses that have these functions as beautiful integral parts, rather than
> adding on kludgey afterthoughts, box after box after box, more expensively?

Solar water heating will be in my design from the start.  It will be active, and
will be supplemented by the ground source heat pump on overcast days.
 
> >> On the latter a recent design here in the UK (Scotland in particular)
> >> has aimed at reducing cost rather than increasing efficiency of a
> >> solar panel.
> 
> What a strange and excellent idea :-)
> 
> >Some of the low-E windows I have seen lately have been close to what
> >Nick had mentioned; one was SC=.59 and another 'heat mirror' SC=.41
> 
> They are also more expensive...

I would be using them anyway, in order to reduce heat loss in winter and heat
gain in summer.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Thu May 23 13:38:51 EDT 1996
Article: 794 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!frankensun.altair.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: R-value conversions (was: Solar Heating, Empirical Measu(r)ements & Experience)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:50:44 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4nl2f8$3eq@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4ne1ri$fgo@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU> <4neqce$e2r@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-port32.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15289 alt.solar.thermal:794

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

[snips - here and there]
>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
>temperature be inside a 1 m cube full of water surrounded by 5 R5 foam walls,
>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>of 2 C and the sun puts 3 kWh/m^2 per day of heat into the R0.175 glazed side
>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
>person who answers it correctly.
I think you'll have to offer more than that.   :-)
(What's $10 in international units?)

Another good one might be, if they've heard of nonimaging optics?

>Of course Mother Nature thinks in meters and C, not feet and F :-) 
Always thought she knew what she was doing.
> Why does the Lord permit such Suffering on Earth,
>if He is Omnipotent?
As he's omnipotent he doesn't have the problems we do!
Unfortunately in Britian we have the bad habit of using a mixture of
the two!!
SI units have the distinct advantage of ease of manipulation, and
since most people use a calculator nowadays, we just have to check if
the dots in the right place!   :-)

So what does R-x mean in the rest of the world then?
(By the way in my post that ended up in alt.solar.thermal even though
in reply to one in alt.energy.renewable - seems an OK sort of place
for it - R-10+ was 'US')

>   When we play tennis or walk downstairs we are actually solving whole
>   pages of differential equations, quickly, easily and without thinking
>   about it, using the analogue computer which we keep in our minds.
Actually...   ...it's digital.
But WTF it works most of the time!



From tooie@maple.sover.net Thu May 23 13:38:52 EDT 1996
Article: 795 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!maple.sover.net!tooie
From: tooie@maple.sover.net (Tooie)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: MAKE BIG MONEY FAST!!!
Followup-To: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Date: 20 May 1996 17:22:48 GMT
Organization: SoVerNet, Inc.
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4nq9p8$m0b@thrush.sover.net>
References: <4nok1r$cmj@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: maple.sover.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6919 sci.energy:49679 alt.energy.renewable:15290 alt.solar.thermal:795 alt.architecture.alternative:7007

Nick Pine (nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu) wrote:
:   Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
:   temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
:   sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
:   of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
:   of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
:   Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
:   person who answers it correctly.
:  
: Still only 3 numerical answers to this simple question so far. Two people got
: part 1 correct, and one has almost solved part 2 using simple arithmetic, but
: there's still a chance for the right person to earn $10 in 2 minutes with
: a couple of back of the envelope calculations... This might also be a rare
: opportunity for someone else to get paid to learn :-)

: Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F and
: a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
: the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
: outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
: a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F. 

: Another slightly less accurate way to do this is to find the energy lost
: during the first hour, assuming the interior temperature is constant over
: the hour, find out how much the thermal mass has to cool to supply that
: heat loss, find the new interior temperature, find the energy lost in the
: second hour, and so on...

: Nick

 
1000 Btu/ft^2-day * 16 ft^2 = 16000 Btu/day

16000 Btu/4000 lbm H2O * 1 Btu/lbm-F = 4 F

assuming  the following

h = 20 Btu/hr ft^2-F
c = 1 Btu/lbm-F
rho = 62.4 lbm
k = .32Btu/hr-ft^2-F

the thermal time constant is;

(62.4 * 1 * 64)/(20 * 16) = 12.5 hours

so if it's dark for 14 hours, at the end of the 14 hours the temp would be

T - 36 = (40 - 36) e^(-14/12.5)

T = 37.3 F

this is highly dependent on the value of h (convective heat transfer 
coefficient) obviously wind (or lack of) would have a majot effect.

Radiative heat transfer would be as follows (assuming blackbody);

q = sigma * Area * (T1^4 - T2^4)

q = 0.1714 E-8 Btu/hf-ft^2-R^4 * 16 ft^2 * ((460+40)^4 - (460+36)^4)

q = 54 Btu/hr therefore neglible



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:52 EDT 1996
Article: 796 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Simple solar heating problems
Date: 20 May 1996 14:58:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 203
Message-ID: <4nqfcr$hj4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4nq5t1$6rg@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15292 sci.energy:49681 alt.architecture.alternative:7008 alt.solar.thermal:796

Russell W. Schmidt <schmidtrw@ornl.gov> wins the prize!!!

>>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water 
>>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>>sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>>of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>>of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?

>It does not matter what water temperature you start with - the question 
>was what is the "steady-state" temperature of the water. For a steady 
>state, the energy in must balance the energy out, so 
>insolation (solar energy in) = heat loss.

Agreed. Energy in = Energy out. Those are the only two energy flows here,
in the long run, and they are equal. Energy is conserved. If the box had
lightbulbs or people inside, there would be some internal power to add in
to the solar power, but that isn't the case here. 

>QHL = U*A*dT = A/R *dT = sum(A1/R1 + A2/R2) * deltaT     heat loss rate
 
       sum(A1/R1 + A2/R2) =    (5*4'*4')/(20*hr*ft^2*F/BTU) 
                             + (  4'*4')/( 1*hr*ft^2*F/BTU)
                          = 20 BTU/(hr*F)

Yes. To find the thermal conductivity for the whole box, you divide each
exterior surface area by its R-value, and add up the quotients, like adding
conductances to find the overall conductance of several parallel resistors.
 
>QHL = 20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT
 
Un-huh. The heatflow out of the box in Btu/hour is equal to the thermal
conductivity of the box times the temperature difference between the water
inside the box and the constant air temperature outside the box. This is
Ohm's law, with Btu/hr replacing amps and a temperature difference replacing
a voltage difference. The thermal resistance in this simple circuit is
1/20 "Ohm," or 1/(20 "mhO" :-)

>QI = IR * A       Insolation rate
>   = 1000 BTU/(ft^2*day) * 4'*4' = 16,000 BTU/day = 666.67 BTU/hr

OK. This is the average hourly amount of sun power that flows
into the box over 24 hours.
 
>QHL = QI for steady state temperature

Ie the average solar energy that flows into the box during an hour is equal
to the average heat energy that flows out of the box during an hour,
after a long string of average days...
 
>20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT = 666.67 BTU/hr

Saying the same thing once more... 

>Therefore deltaT = 666.67/20 F = 33.33 F

Right :-)

>And the steady-state water temperature = 33.33 F + 36 F = 69.33 F

Good. Several people got to this point.

Now, once the water has warmed up to 69 F over a long string of average days,
we turn off the sun, keeping the outside air temperature exactly the same,
and the water gradually cools off...

>If the window pane is shaded (without adding any extra insulation)
>you simply get a heat loss rate as calculated above:
 
>     QHL = 20 BTU/(hr*F) * deltaT
>        where deltaT = TW - TA  (Water Temp - Ambient Temp)

So at any moment, the water has a certain temperature, and it is losing
energy at a certain rate... The rate of energy flow, ie the heatflow or
heat power flowing out of the box, decreases as the box cools. The box
loses more heat at the beginning, when it is 69 F, than later on, when
the water has cooled to, say 60 F, because the temperature difference
between the inside and the outside of the box has become less, like an
electrical circuit with a lower voltage difference across a resistor,
in which less current flows. The cooling problem can be approximately
solved this way using arithmetic, step by step, eg hour by hour, or day
by day, if the time constant is more than a few days...
 
Inscrutably, er, suitably cloaked in calculus, this becomes:

>This heat loss cools the water, thereby reducing its temperature:
 
>     QHL = M*Cp*dTW/dtime  
>  (Since QHL is a rate, this gives a rate of temperature change)
>      where M  = mass of the water           [about 4000 pounds]
>            Cp = heat capacity of the water  [1 Btu/lb per degree F]
>            TW = temperature of the water    [what we are trying to find]
 
> M = 4'*4'*4' * 62.4 lb/ft^3 = 3993.6 lb or about 4000 lb of water
 
>Setting the two equations for QHL equal and applying a bit of algebra, 
>you get the following differential equation:
 
>  dTW/dtime = (TW-TA)/200  F/hr
 
Well, I guess you COULD do it that way... As J. E. Gordon describes? :-)

>From  _Structures: Why Things Don't Fall Down_: 

   When we play tennis or walk downstairs we are actually solving
   whole pages of differential equations, quickly, easily and without
   thinking about it, using the analogue computer which we keep in our
   minds. What we find difficult about mathematics is the formal,
   symbolic presentation of the subject by pedagogues with a taste for
   dogma, sadism and incomprehensible squiggles.

Present company excepted, of course.

>Now - remembering all that lovely differential equations stuff (not
>likely :-) or looking in the back of the book, you find a solution like
 
>   T = c*e^(-kt) [+ something]
 
Yes. You only need to learn this once, and you don't have to know where
it came from in detail. Electrical engineers write that k as 1/(RC), where
RC is called the "natural time constant" or "RC time constant" of a simple
circuit. In thermal circuits, it is often measured in hours or days. Using
these units above, the RC product has the dimension of hours, in this case,
200 hours, or about 8 days, which is pretty good for a solar house.

>Using the initial conditional calculated above, we get
 
>   TW = 33.33*e^(-t/200) + 36   for TW in Fahrenheit and t in hours

Notice the + 36 on the right, the something that got added to account for
the "final condition," of the water temperature, ie after an infinite number
of days, the water will have lost all its heat, and the water temperature
will be the same as the surrounding air temperature, no matter how good
the box walls were as insulators, if we wait forever, or almost forever.

The way I usually write this is

    T(t) = Ta + (T(0)-Ta)*exp(-t/RC), 

so after time t in hours, the water temperature as a function of time, ie
T(t), which was initially a certain number, T(0) = 69 F in this case,
becomes the same as the air temperature Ta. Initially, there is a temp
difference T(0)-Ta between the water and the air, and as time goes on,
that temperature difference becomes less, and it finally gets scrunched
down to 0 by the decaying exponential function exp(-t/RC) (the "e-to-the-x"
button on a $20 calculator) which becomes 0 as t gets bigger and bigger,
ie as time marches on, until we are left with just T(oo) = Ta + 0...
(oo is infinity, staring back at us, for unseen forces fans.)

>This describes an exponential temperature decrease - the rate of cooling
>slows as the temperature difference between the air and the water 
>decreases. So, the water cools by about one sixth of a degree F per hour
>at first, with the rate slowly declining. After 10 days, the water 
>temperature is still about 10 degrees F above the ambient temperature.

Right. T(t) = 36 + (69-36)*exp(-t/200), so...

After 0 days  Tw = 69, since exp(0/200) = 1, 
After 1 day   Tw = 65, since exp(-0.12) = 0.886,
After 2 days  Tw = 62, since exp(-0.24) = 0.787,
After 3 days  Tw = 59, ...
After 4 days  Tw = 56, ....
After 5 days  Tw = 54  .....

After 10 days Tw = 46  ....... and so on, until

After oo days Tw = 36, since exp(-oo) = 0.

>This answer ignores the daily fluctuations in both the ambient
>temperature and (for part 1 above) the insolation rate. Both of these
>can be modeled reasonably well using a sine function:
 
>Insolation = pi/2 * 12 hr Avg insolation * sin(hour*pi/12)
>Ambient Temp = AvgTemp + (TempRange/2)*SIN((Time/12)*PI())

They COULD be, but in this linear case they could also be happily ignored,
to get the same answer :-) Using this sort of thing in the ***bonus***
problem below would lead to a higher and more realistic performance,
but it's probably overkill there too, vs just using daily averages. 
 
>These functions can be used in the above calculations, leading to much
>more fun with calculus.

Yeah, right :-)

>Since I have Real Work (tm) to do, I will leave
>the detailed solution as an exercise for the under-employed.

Hey, that's me! Congratulations, Russell! I will send a $10 check to the
address below. Is this the way to run a consulting business, or what? :-)

>Russ Schmidt    <idt@ornl.gov>
>Lockheed Martin Energy Systems
>Oak Ridge, TN  37831-7294

Bonus problem (another $10): How does all this change if a December day
is 6 hours long, and during each 18 hour night, that R1 glazed wall is
somehow insulated to R20, like the other walls, and it stays R20 for
24 hours a day during the DARK TIME.

You can't play this time, Russ :-)

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu May 23 13:38:52 EDT 1996
Article: 797 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!uunet!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!bofh.dot!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: Re: Help cool my Bunnies
Date: 21 May 1996 17:32:18 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <4ntcp2$pl0@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4nrse0$fs7@ns2.ptd.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15299 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6933 alt.solar.thermal:797 misc.consumers.frugal-living:18669

Dave Cruikshank <davsachz@postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:

>Hi, I'm just an Homedweller not an HVAC person, but I was 
>hoping to garner some info form the experts.

I have forwarded your message to the August sci.engr.heat-vent-ac group,
a collection of freon pumpers who should now be able to help with your
rabbit problem, owing to some recent educational postings there. 

>My Wife, Child, myself and 9 house rabbits live on the 2&3rd floor
>of a 3 story stick construction home.

I understand your desire to heat your house with rabbits, but you should seek
professional help. Everything is in the system design. Did you have an HVAC
professional estimate the number of rabbits you would need? Perhaps not, if
you are having cooling problems now.  When will people learn? Cows might have
been better, but they are contraindicated on the second floor of a house... 

>We own our own business and have a very tight budget.

You are going in the right direction, with rabbit heat :-) Have you
considered barbecuing the parents this summer, after they have had their
cute little litters? Smaller rabbits make fewer Btu/hr, and they will
grow larger by winter. Your HVAC professional should have suggested a
seasonal breeding and harvest plan.

>We live on the currently very hot & humid Mid-atlantic, PA

What is the nearest town to your hutch? Harrisburg, with an average temp
in July of 75.7 F, and average daily mins and maxes of 65.6 and 85.8?
The freon pumpers will doubtless suggest conventional AC, but you can
do it with thermal mass and insulation, if you ventilate at night and
button the place up during the day. Is a roof pond possible, or a pond
on the north side of the house? 

>Using a whole house fan, and or the two Window AC units we now have,
>what is the best way to keep it under 80.  

Fill your house up with thermal mass. Say you have R13 walls and ceiling,
3,000 ft^2 of them, and an air infiltration rate of 1 ACH and a volume of
16K ft^3, ie an air inf. rate of 266 cfm for a heat loss coefficient of
about 500 Btu/hr-F. You and your bunnies (can you get them to live outside
in the summer?) will make about 6,000 Btu/hour of heat, and the house will
admit about another 8h (86-80) 500 = 24K Btu on an average day, for a daily
cooling load of approximately 170K Btu/day, plus a modest electricity usage
amounting to 70K Btu/day, for a total of 240K Btu/day. To store coolth at
70 F for 5 days at that max temp you need to store 1.2 million Btu in a
thermal mass C such that 10C = 1.2M, ie C = 120K Btu/F. The house walls and
furnishings might have a heat capacity of 3K Btu/F, so you need another 234
55 gallon drums full of water, accent drums, sprinkled around the house.
Or a lot more concrete furniture.

>Is it best to keep an insulated home sealed up.

Yes, during the day.

>Or should we open a 2nd floor window and put a large fan in the attic.

Yes, at night.

>Would it help to put reflective foil and foam insulation in the sunside
>windows to seal them off.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

Yes. And it would probably help to shade the south wall with a big black
piece of greenhouse shadecloth, or Dewitt black polypropylene "weed control
cloth" at $78 for a 4' wide x 250' roll at Home Depot. 

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu May 23 13:38:52 EDT 1996
Article: 798 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:45:21 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <31A271B1.3E50@patriot.net>
References: <319e5258.11796068@news.algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-17.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

midnite wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> I am looking for solar vacuum collector tubes. I need to find vendors
> to get best price/performance.
> If you know any manufactors of solar vacuum tubes, please let me know.
> 
> I need this kind of solar collector because I live in cold Sweden.
> 
> Regards Hans Nilsson

One manufacturer is Thermomax

http://www.thermomax.com

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From midnite@algonet.se Thu May 23 13:38:53 EDT 1996
Article: 799 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!erinews.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!news
From: midnite@algonet.se (midnite)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 22:46:11 GMT
Organization: j%nki~w€RJ3M-26XPLZ8L-BFGD44CT-1EA6BC82
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <319e5258.11796068@news.algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sophocles.algonet.se
NNTP-Posting-User: a1ab10c587ce2d860
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

Hi!
I am looking for solar vacuum collector tubes. I need to find vendors
to get best price/performance.
If you know any manufactors of solar vacuum tubes, please let me know.

I need this kind of solar collector because I live in cold Sweden.

Regards Hans Nilsson



From tore.forsgren@tfe.se Wed Jun  5 16:19:47 EDT 1996
Article: 806 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.bluesky.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!FQDN!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!xmission!inquo!bofh.dot!nntp.uio.no!news.kth.se!tybalt.admin.kth.se!celsiustech.se!seunet!news2.swip.net!mn6.swip.net!mn5.swip.net!news
From: Tore Forsgren <tore.forsgren@tfe.se>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 20:12:34 -0700
Organization: TF Energisystem
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <319D4022.3587@tfe.se>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup96-6-3.swipnet.se
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-User: 1f4249d42c47a2c1c68bdd16bf11a25a
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:49854 alt.solar.thermal:806 alt.energy.renewable:15322 alt.architecture.alternative:7030 bit.listserv.geodesic:5008 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6970

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...I usually start by asking "Are you familiar with Ohm's law?"
> >> That filters out more than half of the "energy consultants" I've met,
> >> but asking this question is sometimes embarrassing all around...
> >
> >Because that is an electrical term, as opposed to a thermodynamic term.
> 
> Many people learn Ohm's law in high school, Will...
> I think an energy expert should be familiar with Ohm's law.
> To far too many people these days, "energy" = "electrical energy."
> 
> >Appropriate if you are talking to a PV consultant, but confusing otherwise.
> 
> Yes, Ohm's law is confusing to certain "energy consultants" :-)
> 
> >You are simply trying to make other people translate your way of thinking as
> >an EE.  Why not speak in thermodynamic terms, like the rest of the industry?
> 
> Perhaps we should ask 'em about enthalpy? :-)
> 
> >>Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
> >>temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,

etc...

Knowledge or at least abtractions like Ohms law could be 
usefull as well as skills in thermodynamics. This discussion is really
about positioning one self and has more to do with human nature than
with energy. And being said itself is allso an atempt to be smarter than
the rest of you. (Humans are we not?)

/Tore F




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:47 EDT 1996
Article: 807 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Extremely simple solar thermal problems
Date: 23 May 1996 19:20:29 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <4o2rrt$eo5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31A2EFA2.FA5@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:807 alt.energy.renewable:15326 sci.energy:49880 alt.architecture.alternative:7032

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote;
: Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F and
: a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
: the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
: outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
: a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F.

>If the solar house you describe does not have a direct gain thermal storage 
>capability, aside from room temperature walls and floors, then you could see 
>something like the above.

I see that _with_ your water walls...

>However, if one *does* have thermal storage, such as 4000 lbs of water walls
>that are heated by direct solar gain, then these will raise to a higher
>temperature that the ambient indoor temperature without raising the indoor
>temperature uncomfortably, and heat by convection and radiation.

R-values include convection and radiation.

>If they were only 10 degrees warmer, then the storage would be 40,000 Btus.

And on a 36 F day with no sun, your 66 F house will need about 24(66-36)150
= 108K Btu to keep itself warm. 216K Btu for 2 days, 324K for 3 days, etc...

>BTW, any passive solar homeowner without a backup heat source in an area
>of -10 F days is asking for cold times, indeed.

I disagree. References please...
You have my numbers, Will.
Where are your numbers?
 
>Masonry heaters are natural complements,
>as they are relatively efficient and are themselves thermal flywheels.

References please... Did you say you cared about air pollution? 

: Another slightly less accurate way to do this is to find the energy lost
: during the first hour, assuming the interior temperature is constant over
: the hour, find out how much the thermal mass has to cool to supply that
: heat loss, find the new interior temperature, find the energy lost in the
: second hour, and so on...

>Or learn calculus.

Or learn high school physics, and use arithmetic.

You have failed to answer my many numerical questions...

A couple of people have asked me,

"Who is Will Stewart,

and
WHY are you
arguing with him?"
 
Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:48 EDT 1996
Article: 808 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.home.repair
Subject: A larger polytope solar structure
Date: 24 May 1996 06:54:15 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4o44gn$i0e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o1616$frb@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <4o1pij$89e@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: appending the PSIC guidelines
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7034 alt.solar.thermal:808 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:6979 sci.energy:49903 alt.home.repair:24889

We could add more floor space to a pyramid treehouse with another horizontal 
telephone pole at the peak extending it in the east-west direction. The sunny 
vertical face would be glazed again, with four tensile supports running north
and south, and it might still be 24' tall at the peak, using three telephone
poles this time, and some flexible membrane walls, eg aluminized tarps (what
would the neighbors say? :-) This inexpensive 100% solar heated structure
would have 1152 ft^2 of basement floor on grade, with walls sloping upward
and inward, and two smaller floors above. 

(Try looking at this with a non-proportional "typewriter" font like Courier.)

A vertical wall elevation:    


        24'     ........30'...... <--chainsaw mortise and tenon joint, with
              .                  .            steel plates and bolts thru
     16'    ............42'..........         flattened sides?
          . <-glazed area: 384 ft^2-> .   
   8'   ................54'..............     
      .     <-glazed area: 480 ft^2->     .    
........................66'.......................


>From  above:

   ---          ........*........     * rope or cable or pole
              . .               . .         
            .   .               .   .      
   24'    * 216 *    720 ft^2   * 216 *   
        .  ft^2 .               . ft^2  .
      .         .               .         .    
.........pole..........pole........pole...........
                 .             .
                  .           .
                   .         .
                    *       *
                     .     .
                      .   .
                       . .
                        .

                    sun
>From  the east:
                              .   
                    sun     t . t    
                          t   ..8'.t 
                        t     .       t 
                      t       .....16'...t
                    t         . SC          t
             .....t.....pool?.........24'......t......

The upper floors might be cable-supported...

                                   16'
    ................................................................       
                    .               .               . 
     2' ?           .               .               . 
                    .               .               . 
    ---                             .
 
We could glaze the whole thing with polyethylene film and recycle the lower
16' of the south face every three years (less often with a summer shadecloth
awning hanging from the south support cables) in a couple of hours, at a
materials cost of $50. The solar closet could be in the walk-out basement,
sitting inside the poly film near the vertical wall, with a single layer of
clear polycarbonate plastic over the sunny side of a strawbale room, and
an air gap between the plastic and the strawbales. The lower 16' of the
vertical face of this structure might gather about a million Btu (300 kWh)
of sun on an average winter day, if it has a reflecting surface in front.
The second floor would have an exposed surface area of 384 ft^2 for the R1
wall, and more for the sloped walls. Suppose we lined the plastic pillows of
the sloped walls and ceiling with sheepskins (or fiberglass or polystyrene
beads, or leaves, or something...) so the main heat loss from the second
floor were thru the R1 vertical glazing.

On a freezing day, when it's 72 F (20 C) inside, the middle floor might
need 24(72-32)384/R1=370K Btu (110 kWh) to stay warm, which the room's
own glazing could supply on an average winter day, with some sun, in
the coldest month, where I live.

How much water is needed to store heat for 5 days without sun? Each 55 gal
drum full of water can store about 25K Btu (7.5 kWh) as it cools from 130 F
to 80 F, so we might need 384K/7.5K = 50 drums, or 500 5 gallon plastic
paint pails with lids or a 10 year supply of Pepsi (recall the Arkansas
solar supermarket whose thermal mass is its inventory of canned goods, etc)
or water in recycled 2 liter soda bottles. Each drum is about 3' tall and
2' in diameter, so we might use a 10'x10'x6' tall (id) room to hold the
drums in two 5x5 layers. It might be made with 12 large $25 straw bales,
each 4' x 4' x 8', and four smaller bales, darkened and glazed on the sunny
side, with an air space under the glazing, and a couple of plastic film
one-way dampers to keep the heat inside at night. 

Wool bales would also do, with dark wool on the sunny side. Regardless of
sweater prices, wool can be inexpensive: I take my neighbor's wool to market
when he thinks it's worth the effort, and it sometimes brings 6 cents per
pound, if the fleece is short or tangled or dark-colored or dirty. They
send it off to make felt washers, in huge bales. When he slaughters a sheep,
my neighbor burns the sheepskin. 

The 1993 ASHRAE HOF says a few shorn mature basement sheep might produce
2.4 Btu/hr-lb of sensible heat at 68 F (1.5 W/kg at 20 C :-) This drops to
1 Btu/hr-lb with a fleece length of 2.4" (6 cm.) Lambs less than 2 weeks
old produce a total heat of 10.5 Btu/hr-lb at an air temperature of 46 F.
We could heat this barn with an R1 wall in the dead of winter with 67 shorn
100 lb sheep, if there were no sun. Or 0 sheep, and 1 sun.

Nick



From jsjansen@teleport.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:48 EDT 1996
Article: 809 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!ub!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!psgrain!nntp.teleport.com!jsjansen
From: jsjansen@teleport.com (Jeff Jansen)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.architecture.int-design,alt.building.architecture,alt.energy.renewable,alt.hvac,alt.landscape.architecture,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Architecture + Energy Awards Program, Pacific NW
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 04:21:37 GMT
Organization: Modest Systems
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4o0p40$e6b@nadine.teleport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx09-59.teleport.com
Summary: Announcement for Energy Awards Program
Keywords: Architecture Energy Conservation Solar Awards Efficiency Northwest Portland Oregon
To: aiapdx@teleport.com, jsjansen@teleport.com
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture:18927 alt.architecture.alternative:7036 alt.architecture.int-design:2811 alt.building.architecture:779 alt.energy.renewable:15333 alt.hvac:775 alt.landscape.architecture:1781 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1310 alt.solar.thermal:809

   A N N O U N C I N G 

------------------------------------------
ARCHITECTURE + ENERGY Awards Program
------------------------------------------
   of the
   Portland, Oregon Chapter of the
   American Institute of Architects (AIA)

DESCRIPTION
----------------------------------------------------------------
   The 1996 awards program, ARCHITECTURE + ENERGY: BUILDING 
   EXCELLENCE IN THE NORTHWEST, recognizes design excellence in 
   buildings that utilize energy-efficient technology. This 
   program is open to nonresidential buildings in Idaho, 
   Montana, Oregon, and Washington. 

CALL FOR ENTRIES
----------------------------------------------------------------
   Call for Entry packets will be available in May 1996. 
   Submission deadline is Friday, June 14, 1996 at 5:00 PM 

   To request an entry packet, send your Name, Firm name, 
   Mailing address, Phone number, and Email address to: 

        ARCHITECTURE + ENERGY
        Attn: Robyn Cooper-Olson
        AIA Portland
        315 SW Fourth Avenue
        Portland OR 97204
        503.223.8757
        503.220.0254 fax
        email: aiapdx@teleport.com 

   NOTE: We can not email you a Call for Entry Packet, so if 
   you email us your request, be sure to include your "regular" 
   mailing information. 

   Also, look for more information about ARCHITECTURE+ENERGY
   at http://www.teleport.com/~aiapdx.

JURORS
----------------------------------------------------------------
   Jurors for the 1996 ARCHITECTURE+ENERGY program are: 

   o  Arthur Erickson, Hon. FAIA, FRAIC, ARCA, MRIBA
      Vancouver, BC, Canada 
  
   o  Harry T. Gordon, FAIA
      Principal at Burt Hill, Washington, DC 
  
   o  Jerry A. Bancroft, AIA
      Professor of Architecture, Montana State University 
  
   o  Kevin R. Hydes, PE
      a Vice President of Keen Engineering Co. Ltd.,
      North Vancouver, BC, Canada 
  
   o  James R. Benya, PE, FIES, IALD
      Benya Lighting Design, Sausalito, CA and West Linn, OR 

TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE
----------------------------------------------------------------
   Technical Assistance for award submissions is available.
   For more information, contact: 

        Dorothy Payton, Technical Training Facilitator
        503.223.8757
        aiapdx@teleport.com 
----------------------------------------------------------------
<end of announcement>



From kdrossel@netzone.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:49 EDT 1996
Article: 810 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!bertha.pyramid.com!news.sedona.net!rtd.com!news.netzone.com!usenet
From: kdrossel@netzone.com (K Drossel)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Heating a "regulator" mass?
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:41:08 GMT
Organization: NetZone Services L.L.C.  (602) 991-4NET
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4nvqkj$eta@news1.netzone.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: phx-ip-47.netzone.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Anyone out there have information on creating a "regulator" mass for
heat source/sink?

Thoughts are of creating a  storage mass (likely of concrete and/or
rocks) with pipes running through for moving heat in and out. Mass
would be buried and maybe insulated (talking desert southwest here so
may not be best to insulate). House heat/cool process would be through
this mass via heat pump and/or air circulation. When evenings are cool
the daytime sun can be tapped to pump heat into this mass for use at
night. During hot weather the mass would be a daytime heat sink and
would be cooled in the evening on off-peak power or by night air
circulation. Thought about using a "swimming pool" but seems the heat
storage use would conflict with use for actual swimming.

Is this something to pursue with an engineer or is it a stupid notion?
In my area it may be best to just ground-couple the structure and let
the earth be the regulator.

tia,
------------------------------------------
-- Kevin Drossel 
--------------------- kdrossel@netzone.com



From Mark.O.Wilson@atlantaGA.ncr.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:49 EDT 1996
Article: 811 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.green,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.energy.hydrogen
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub2!ncrcae!news
From: Mark.O.Wilson@atlantaGA.ncr.com (Mark O. Wilson)
Subject: Re: Help! Republican "Reformers" are Killing Wind and Solar Energy Research
Message-ID: <31a46ba2.4838114@ncrcae.columbiasc.ncr.com>
Sender: news@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM (news)
Organization: NCR
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
References: <4nv3ia$9ba@zoom2.telepath.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:44:31 GMT
Lines: 9
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15344 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1312 alt.solar.thermal:811 sci.energy:49964 sci.environment:95312 sci.energy.hydrogen:4050

Mike Bergey <mbergey@telepath.com> wrote:

>
>In the next 7 days the House Appropriations Committee will decide on 
>next year¹s research budgets for wind and solar energy programs at the 
>Dept. of Energy.  And the word from Washington is that the Committee 
>will virtually wipe them out. 

Great news, thanks for letting me know.


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:19:49 EDT 1996
Article: 812 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:42:41 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net> <4ninj8$mae@biffo.sol.co.uk> <319D61AF.1AA@patriot.net> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port28.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

William R Stewart wrote:
and
Nick Pine wrote:
And if you can't tell one from the other...

Just to tidy up some bits.

> (sounds like a solar panel to me :-)
(I wrote that!)
>> >Yep.
>> 
>> But they are also very expensive, and normally live on the roof, which makes
>> them fundamentally different from these inexpensive sunspaces. 
There's inexpensive and there's cheap  :-)
Maybe a false economy?
>> Brick sunspaces have LOTS of thermal mass behind glass with no night
>> insulation, as do many Trombe walls and direct gain houses. This is a
>> very inefficient way to heat a house in a partly cloudy climate, because
>> the thermal mass stores lots of solar heat during the day, and most of that
>> solar heat disappears through the glazing at night. 
Didn't I mention something about TIM somewhere?
Me again:
>> >> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,
>> >> even for houses orientated to minimise passive solar gain, addittional
>> >> energy costs for space heating can be made insignificant.
>> 
>> Absolutely true. But at what price?
This is from a case study book published by the RIBA (Royal Institute
of British Architects) - so it's kosher!
Two types of house were built on a site (in Milton Keynes) one to
building regulation standard the other superinsulated.  That was the
only difference i.e. window style was normal;  indeed, orientation of
the house was to minimise solar gain!
The 'super' houses cost 2000 pounds more to build than standard, and I
think there would be less difference now.  (At a guess the market
value of the houses would be >100,000 so you see this is not a
significant sum - and the 'super' houses sold first.)
Space heating costs were then 10 to 20 pounds a year.
As I said:
>> >> With windows available now (R-10+) and orientation to make best use of
>> >> winter sun I think it is possible to reduce space heating costs to
>> >> zero in an otherwise normal house.
>> 
>> I agree, IF you are willing to live with very few windows.
No.  I believe (but I have been known to be wrong  :-)
That in the RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) these sort of windows
contribute more heat than they lose -  North facing in the winter.
(I would check this before I committed to build though!)
>> >> These houses cost little more than a normal house
>> 
>> Whoa!!!
See above. 
>> >> Then the main effort needed is to reduce lighting and water heating costs.
>> 
>> True. And how do you reduce water heating costs? Superinsulation doesn't
>> heat water. Can we try to look at more of the whole picture here, and make
>> new houses that have these functions as beautiful integral parts, rather than
>> adding on kludgey afterthoughts, box after box after box, more expensively?
Read on (again):
>> >> On the latter a recent design here in the UK (Scotland in particular)
>> >> has aimed at reducing cost rather than increasing efficiency of a
>> >> solar panel.
>> 
>> What a strange and excellent idea :-)
That's what I thought and as someone has already asked me, and to
satisfy my own curiosity, I shall attempt to find out more.
(Though I am of the opinion, if it is not a retrofit, highly efficient
nonimaging optics systems plus storage is the solution(!) for hot
water.)



From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Wed Jun  5 16:19:50 EDT 1996
Article: 813 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.maz.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:42:37 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <31A4957D.5B27@dortmund.netsurf.de>
References: <319e5258.11796068@news.algonet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: porta-04.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
To: midnite <midnite@algonet.se>

midnite wrote:
> =

> Hi!
> I am looking for solar vacuum collector tubes. I need to find vendors
> to get best price/performance.
> If you know any manufactors of solar vacuum tubes, please let me know.
> =

> I need this kind of solar collector because I live in cold Sweden.
> =

> Regards Hans Nilsson

There is an institute in Germany and in Switzerland doing research in =

this field. As they are independent the informations are not filtered =

ore influenced by commercial firm.

The institute in Germany has published the following book:
Sch=FCle, R., Ufheil, M., Thermische Solaranlagen: Marktuebersicht =

1994/1995, =D6ko-Institut e.V., Freiburg, 1995

The other one is testing collectors for firm in whole Europe:
Technikum Rapperswil, Leistungsdaten thermischer Solarkollektoren, 1993
Maybe there is a newer one. You can find almost every collector here.

Greetings
-- =

Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/



From dominicf@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:50 EDT 1996
Article: 814 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!news.jhu.edu!jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu!dominicf
From: Dom <dominicf@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: TiO2/ceramic solar devices
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:37:18 -0400
Organization: HCF - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.93.960523222505.8736H-100000@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.220.2.5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

All

Has anyone witnessed yellow TiO2?

I made some sol-gel TiO2 electrodes for a solar cell, and they turn yellow
over time under various conditions.  I attribute it to fluorecent emission
based on the spectral evidence.  It has an absorption max at 300nm, and a
weak emission peak at 700nm. 

My advisor is telling me that I have it all wrong despite the eveidence. 
He attributed it to band edge tailing due to surface states falling just
above the valence band. It does tail into the visible only slightly to
400nm, but exciting into this yeilds no detectable emission. Aside from
that if it were from just scatter like he was saying I would expect it to
be more green than canary yellow.

Has anyone else encountered this?  What did you make of it? 


Thanks,
Dom
=============================================================================
Disclaimer: 

Don't blame me if your lab bench looks like London after the blitz krieg. 
All problems, beefs, flames, attitude adjustments, gripes, pedantic
corrections, and didactic prose should be directed to 1-900-328-7448.
=============================================================================

"Had I known that we were not going to get rid of this damned quantum
jumping, I never would have involved myself in this business." :-)

Erwin Schrodinger
=============================================================================




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:50 EDT 1996
Article: 815 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: 24 May 1996 08:24:19 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <4o49pj$ige@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net> <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

gcp <gcp@taynet.co.uk> wrote:

Who is this UKsian gcp, anyhow? :-) Will he/she unlurk, with a real name?

>William R Stewart wrote, and Nick Pine wrote [blah blah blah...]

>Just to tidy up some bits.

OK...

>> (sounds like a solar panel to me :-)
>(I wrote that!)
>>>>Yep.
>>>But they are also very expensive, and normally live on the roof, which makes
>>>them fundamentally different from these inexpensive sunspaces. 
>There's inexpensive and there's cheap  :-)

And 'frugal.'

>Maybe a false economy?

Maybe. To me, rooftop panels make no sense at all, economically.
Putting bare water heating panels in a sunspace makes more sense.
What we use for glazing is a tradeoff between aesthetics, cost, and
replacement maintenance. A matter of personal taste, when all is said.

Physics is not a matter of taste: panels in a sunspace gather more heat
than rooftop panels. Low-Thermal-Mass Sunspaces (in many forms) are more
efficient than HTMS at heating attached houses. Isolated sunspaces work
better than direct gain houses, Trombe walls are the pits, performance-wise,
and heat stored in a high temp store can keep a house warm longer than
heat stored in the same thermal mass in the house itself, etc.
(Repeating obvious truths to people who won't listen.)

>>> Brick sunspaces have LOTS of thermal mass behind glass with no night
>>> insulation, as do many Trombe walls and direct gain houses. This is a
>>> very inefficient way to heat a house in a partly cloudy climate, because
>>> the thermal mass stores lots of solar heat during the day, and most of that
>>> solar heat disappears through the glazing at night. 

>Didn't I mention something about TIM somewhere?

I don't recall that. What's a TIM? Or is this your friend Tim?

>Me again:
>>> >> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,

Love that phrase... Like "thus we can easily see..." skipping over
pages and pages of hard mathematics, or enshrouding shaky assumptions...

>>> >> even for houses orientated to minimise passive solar gain, addittional
>>> >> energy costs for space heating can be made insignificant.
>>> 
>>> Absolutely true. But at what price?

>This is from a case study book published by the RIBA (Royal Institute
>of British Architects) - so it's kosher!

I suspect architects, even kosher ones. Altho they were the guys who
inspired US solar architects in the 1800s... Have they evolved with
the same fervor as the British Admiralty over the years?

>Two types of house were built on a site (in Milton Keynes) one to
>building regulation standard the other superinsulated.  That was the
>only difference i.e. window style was normal;  indeed, orientation of
>the house was to minimise solar gain!

OK. (Architects at work.) Where is Milton Keynes?
Are these Cornwall houses, surrounded by palm trees and pirates? 

>The 'super' houses cost 2000 pounds more to build than standard, and I
>think there would be less difference now.  (At a guess the market
>value of the houses would be >100,000 so you see this is not a
>significant sum - and the 'super' houses sold first.)

I could see that a house like this might not cost more than its "normal"
neighbor, if all one does is stuff another layer of 1L/m^2 R3 (UK) fiberglass
in the wall, but not if it means tightening up the house to 0.1 natural
air changes per hour, vs 1 or 2. Perhaps the "normal" house had 0.1 ACH
already...? What sells first may be largely a matter of hype.

>Space heating costs were then 10 to 20 pounds a year.

Unbelievable. I'd like to know more of this story,
eg their climate and electrical consumption. 
And the window type and area... 
How big are these houses? 

Are they bathing machines full of incandescent bulbs?
Do people live in them in the winter?
Is there a winter?

>As I said:
>>> >> With windows available now (R-10+) and orientation to make best use of
>>> >> winter sun I think it is possible to reduce space heating costs to
>>> >> zero in an otherwise normal house.
>>> I agree, IF you are willing to live with very few windows.
>No.  I believe (but I have been known to be wrong  :-)

Let's check this with a few numbers if possible, gcp... 
Can we do a little thermal arithmetic here, or do you rely on Unseen Forces?

>That in the RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) these sort of windows
>contribute more heat than they lose -  North facing in the winter.

That sounds possible, esp in a cloudy climate with lots of diffuse
solar radiation, which comes from all over the sky, not just the south.
But what's the whole picture here?

>>> >> These houses cost little more than a normal house
>>> Whoa!!!
>See above. 
I repeat. Whoa!!! In rhetoric, an assertion demands no more than a
counterassertion. I've supplied some numbers, and well-known physicks
accepted by all but a few self-styled AE gurus, who shall remain nameless,
like you, and you've supplied an incomplete anecdote thus far, I ween. 

>>> >> On the latter a recent design here in the UK (Scotland in particular)
>>> >> has aimed at reducing cost rather than increasing efficiency of a
>>> >> solar panel.
>>> What a strange and excellent idea :-)
>That's what I thought and as someone has already asked me, and to
>satisfy my own curiosity, I shall attempt to find out more.

Good. But we still have that inescapable economics, that if ALL a "solar
collector" does is collect solar energy worth S pounds per square meter
per year, and the complete system cost is C pounds per square meter, with 
labour and all the bits and pieces, it will take at least C/S years (ie
forever) to pay for itself, not including maintenance, hail, hurricanes,
reroofing problems, roof penetration leaks, and the cost of electrical
power to run it. Of course we do things now that never pay back, but
wouldn't it be nice if a solar heating investment paid off better than
putting money in a bank account? Wouldn't that make it more interesting
for Nigel Average?

And solar collectors should go in warm sunspaces if possible, where they can
collect heat more efficiently or work without insulation, and their "waste
heat" can heat an attached house, vs being blown away in the wind, and where
if they never freeze, they won't need antifreeze, heat exchangers or pumps
(IMHO.) Not that I'm trying to tell you what to do, mind you. Go waste your
money on ugly expensive complex inefficient systems if you like.

>(Though I am of the opinion, if it is not a retrofit, highly efficient
>nonimaging optics systems plus storage is the solution(!) for hot water.)

I like non-imaging opticks :-) I lent my laser pointer to the father thereof
at a lecture a couple of weeks ago. He brought along a Cassegrainian version
(~1mx3m for the primary reflector) of what may become a standard for roofs
of large buildings, and set it up on the roof of the Franklin Institute in
Philadelphia to let us all watch it work. But there was no sun :-( Hence,
yes, storage... But you know, Prof Winston came very close to saying that
his optics are expensive overkill if all you want is hot water for showers,
vs. higher temperatures for process steam or tropical icemaking or LiBr
absorption air-conditioning. (Many would say the same for Thermomax.)

I like Richard Komp's version, a 4' x 8' panel with 2:1 CPCs that fail to
focus the sun on half the normal number of PVs, which are somehow attached
to "Big Fins" (I think) that are clipped to copper pipes. These things make
150 W of electricity and 1600 Watts of hot water at the same time. Now if
we could do similar solar co-generation with some sort of transparent
electrodeposited PVs which can produce lots of power at high temperatures
and cost $1/peak watt, and plate them on to a window or some polycarbonate
plastic, or glue them on to some big fins attached to some copper pipes
inside a sunspace, or collect their "waste heat" with an air-water heat
exchanger, as they are starting to do in Appleby restaurant sunspaces,
that would be even more interesting, even without the NI optics... 

Cheerio,

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:51 EDT 1996
Article: 816 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Extremely simple
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:23:34 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <31A66F26.4189@patriot.net>
References: <31A2EFA2.FA5@patriot.net> <4o2rrt$eo5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-0.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:816 alt.energy.renewable:15360 sci.energy:50020 alt.architecture.alternative:7059

[Followups set to alt.solar.thermal]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> >BTW, any passive solar homeowner without a backup heat source in an cloudy
> >area of -10 F days is asking for cold times, indeed.

> I disagree. 

As is your right.

> References please...

Talk to a mechanical engineer, physicist, HVAC professional or a person 
who is living in a *passive* solar house under those conditions.

> You have my numbers, Will.
> Where are your numbers?

I've posted them earlier this week and you've already forgotten?
Don't forget you were going to revisit the multiple mistakes you had
made in your calculations.
 
> >Masonry heaters are natural complements,
> >as they are relatively efficient and are themselves thermal flywheels. 
> References please... 

I'm sorry, I assumed that you knew about Masonry heaters.
Reference: 

> Did you say you cared about air pollution?

Let me get this straight; You're the one consuming 700 kWh per month 
and you're acting holier-than-thou?

Heater Type	Particulate Emissions
		    g per kg

Open Fireplace      17.3

Masonry Heaters      2.8

Reference:  Home Power Magazine, Feb/March 1996

> : Another slightly less accurate way to do this is to find the energy lost
> : during the first hour, assuming the interior temperature is constant over
> : the hour, find out how much the thermal mass has to cool to supply that
> : heat loss, find the new interior temperature, find the energy lost in the
> : second hour, and so on...
> 
> >Or learn calculus.

And avoid adding error on top of error, on top of...
 
> Or learn high school physics, and use arithmetic.

Natural logs are not a part of arithmetic.  And you should
have taken the hint when others confirmed that questions such
as yours require calculus.
 
> You have failed to answer my many numerical questions...

You have failed to provide truly coherent questions, much less
coherent calculations.  A little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
indeed.
 
> A couple of people have asked me,
> 
> "Who is Will Stewart,

A private citizen that does not pretend to be the avatar of
all energy knowledge.

> and
> WHY are you
> arguing with him?"

Some quotes from people who have mailed me about you;

    "As an aside, if Mr. Pine was an actual working engineer
     (one with clients and projects), I would doubt that
     he would have time to indulge in as many "discussions"."

    "I notice you got sucked into Nick's "black hole" as well.
     Nick thinks he's god with a capital g, and doesn't have the
     background to support his raves."

    "I wouldn't mind if he weren't so arrogant.  I'm beginning 
     to think he's really a kid, out to impress himself."

    "If you're like me, you'll probably either toy with him
     or killfile him."

You might reconsider your attitude towards others in the energy
field.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:51 EDT 1996
Article: 817 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Nick, Nick, Nick....
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 22:24:48 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31A66F70.1CAE@patriot.net>
References: <31A2EFA2.FA5@patriot.net> <4o2rrt$eo5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-0.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:817 alt.energy.renewable:15361 sci.energy:50021 alt.architecture.alternative:7060

[Followups set to alt.solar.thermal so as not to bore the rest
of the free world...]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >Nick Pine wrote;
> : Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F

Assuming that you are alluding to my place, show me a 2250 ft^2 house with 
150 Btu/hr-F loss...

> : and
> : a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
> : the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
> : outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
> : a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F.

This would be fine for a house that undergoes these conditions.  My house is in 
an area that goes below 16 F exactly 1% of the time. (Reference: "Statistical
Abstract of the United States", 92nd edition, US Bureau of the Census)

I wouldn't have electricity off for a couple of days (will have photovoltaic panels
and battery storage).

I will have an energy efficient fireplace and will fire it up from time to time,
especially when extreme weather conditions occur. 

> >If the solar house you describe does not have a direct gain thermal storage
> >capability, aside from room temperature walls and floors, then you could see
> >something like the above.
> 
> I see that _with_ your water walls...

You push heaps of numbers around, but you fail to understand essential aspects
of thermodynamics.  It's no wonder you don't see...
 
> >However, if one *does* have thermal storage, such as 4000 lbs of water walls
> >that are heated by direct solar gain, then these will rise to a higher
> >temperature than the ambient indoor temperature without raising the indoor
> >temperature uncomfortably, and will also provide heat by convection and 
> >radiation.

> R-values include convection and radiation.

(This last line is a keeper, rabbits or no rabbits)

I rest my case.....

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:52 EDT 1996
Article: 818 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.green,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.energy.hydrogen
Subject: Re: Help! Republican "Reformers" are Killing Wind and Solar Energy Research
Followup-To: alt.politics.libertarian
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:01:21 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <31A67800.1791@patriot.net>
References: <4nv3ia$9ba@zoom2.telepath.com> <31a46ba2.4838114@ncrcae.columbiasc.ncr.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-0.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15364 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1315 alt.solar.thermal:818 sci.energy:50032 sci.environment:95461 sci.energy.hydrogen:4055

Mark O. Wilson wrote:
> 
> Mike Bergey <mbergey@telepath.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >In the next 7 days the House Appropriations Committee will decide on
> >next year¹s research budgets for wind and solar energy programs at the
> >Dept. of Energy.  And the word from Washington is that the Committee
> >will virtually wipe them out.
> 
> Great news, thanks for letting me know.

The great news is the dumping of the special interest congress by the 
US citizenry in the upcoming election.  As much as I dislike Clinton,
at least he can see beyond this year's oil companies' profits.


From peipp@aol.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:52 EDT 1996
Article: 819 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: peipp@aol.com (Peipp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: looking for suggestions dream house design
Date: 25 May 1996 00:17:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 44
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4o61kc$36v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

I'm planning to build my dream house this summer and fall. My idea of a
dream house is one that has the following attributes: low cost, labor,
maintenance, and minimum enviromental impact and utility usage(electric,
propane, wood), while still being comfortable to live in. I'm going to use
as much used materials as possible and am shooting for a cost of
$5-10/ft^2. I will be doing all of the construction myself.

I'm looking for constructive ideas, comments, and suggestions to improve
the design, especially in the areas of heating, cooling, and reducing
labor.

I live in N.E. Oklahoma( 45 mi N.E. of Tulsa) where we have hot, humid
summers and moderately cold winters. The building site will be in the
center of my 40 ac, on a hill next to an existing septic tank and water
source.

The house that I'm proposing to build is a 2 story post & beam with
strawbale infill( 18" thk walls), 26'x26' external wall dimensions and
will have 8'x26' porches on two sides. Downstairs will be open except for
wall around the bathroom and have a 9' ceiling. Upstairs will have 5' tall
side walls, then sloping to a 8' ceiling. Upstairs will be 2 bedrooms, a
bath, and hallway. The ceiling will contain 2 layers of R19 insulation.

The current plans call for a lot of south facing glazing for solar gain,
5- 3x8 downstairs windows and 4- 3x5 upstairs windows. My original idea
was to use wood heat with propane backup, neither of which am I fond of.
After seeing all the posts concerning solar rooms and closets I'm now
wondering if I could get by without backup heat and maybe even eliminate
the propane water heater. I still haven't fully grasp the solar closet
concept however. What keeps the heat from leaking out of the thermal mass
on cloudy days and at night? Also what about radiant floor heat? Could it
be connected to these solar closet water vessels to supply heat?

I would also like to avoid the expense of air conditioning. One idea that
I keep kicking around is to bury an old gasoline storage tank or such next
to the house and pipe cool air into the house in the summer. It could also
serve as a storm shelter and extra living space. I've seen nice ones( 6-8'
dia x 15-20 ft long) sell at farm auctions for $100-200. My biggest
concern is lead contamination, etc from old tanks. Would something like
this work? 

Sincerely, 

David Grizzle


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:52 EDT 1996
Article: 820 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: 25 May 1996 16:01:15 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4o4kdg$aur@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15367 alt.solar.thermal:820 sci.energy:50056 alt.architecture.alternative:7062 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7009

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Peipp wrote:
>> I'm planning to build my dream house this summer and fall...
>> I live in N.E. Oklahoma( 45 mi N.E. of Tulsa)...
>> After seeing all the posts concerning solar rooms and closets I'm now
>> wondering if I could get by without backup heat...

>Where would you put 30 55-gallon drums?

How about a walkout basement, since heat rises? The drums might be 2 deep
and 2 high in a 4' wide x 8' tall x 8' long insulated room. 

>How much insulation is required to keep them at the supposed design
>temperature of 130 F?

Let's see... We'd need an R-value such that

      Ein = 1210 Btu/hr x .8 xmsn x 64ft^2 = 61,952 Btu/day 
	  = 6 hr (130-80)64/R1    south wall, day
	  +18 hr (130-35)64/R     south wall, night
	  +24 hr (130-70)128/R    other walls, 24 hours
          = 19,200+(109,440+184,320)/R = 19,200 + 293,760/R, ie

   42,752 = 293,760/R, or R = 6.87, eg 1" of styrofoam or 2" of fiberglass.

>If they are in the basement, you will have to have a blower running...

Why use a blower, vs a $60 Grainger 36 watt 560 cfm fan that runs when the
sun is shining, with the closet static pressure being 0.05" H20 as measured?
With more care, natural convection would work. 

>and will likely have to have a blower for distribution as well...

How about a 2 Watt $50 Honeywell actuator that opens a damper automatically,
using a $15 Grainger house thermostat to let some warm air rise up into the
house, as required.

>unless you plan to run up and down stairs to adjust a natural convection vent.

Why do that? Another option is an automatic foundation vent such as Leslie-
Locke's FV1-B, with a bimetallic spring that opens some louvers when the
house gets cool, which you can buy at Home Depot for $11.83.

>> What keeps the heat from leaking out of the thermal mass
>> on cloudy days and at night? 
>
>My understanding is there is huge amounts of insulation around the
>55-gallon drums and ducting to them.

That huge inch of Styrofoam? :-)
 
Cheers,

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:53 EDT 1996
Article: 821 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!hookup!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment,pa.environment
Subject: Re: Simple solar heating problems
Date: 26 May 1996 08:59:40 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <4o9kjs$1bc@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4nq5t1$6rg@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> <4nqfcr$hj4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15370 sci.energy:50115 alt.architecture.alternative:7063 alt.solar.thermal:821 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7016 sci.environment:95612

I wrote: 

 Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water 
 temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
 sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
 of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
 of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?

Which Russ Schmidt nicely solved :-)

Nobody has solved the one below yet, after a few days, so I'll try...

 Bonus problem (another $10): How does all this change if a December day
 is 6 hours long, and during each 18 hour night, that R1 glazed wall is
 somehow insulated to R20, like the other walls, and it stays R20 for
 24 hours a day during the DARK TIME.

This would be more interesting if the cube were part of a high-performance
solar house, with the south face of the cube as the back wall of a sunspace,
and the rest of the cube walls inside the house. Below are two solutions for
the outdoor cube, in a simple program that compares their results. One is an
iterative arithmetic solution, and another uses exponentials.

The steady state temp is determined by Ein = 16K Btu/day = Eout, where

Eout = 6 hr (T-36) 16 ft^2/R1      daytime south wall loss with damper open
    + 18 hr (T-36) 16 ft^2/R20     nightime south wall with damper closed
    + 24 hr (T-36) 5*16 ft^2/R20   other walls, 24 hours a day
     = (96+14.4+96)(T-36), so

T = 36 + 16K/206.4 = 113.5 F, after a long string of average December days.
Insulating the glazed south wall at night makes this cube warmer than the
cube where the water lost heat through the R1 glazing all night... 

The thermal resistance of the cube with its south damper or door closed is 
R = R20/(6*16ft^2) = 0.20833, and the 4,000 pounds of water inside has a
thermal mass of C = 4,000 Btu/F, so the time constant RC of the closed cube
is RC = (0.20833)(4000) = 833 hours or 35 days :-) So...

T(t) = 36 + (T(0)-36)exp(-t/35), where T(0) is the water temperature at the
start of a cloudy week and t is in days. The program below calculates this,
and compares it with an arithmetic solution that finds a new water temp each
day, as the heat loss from the water cools its own thermal mass, assuming
the water temp is constant over a day. Whole-day time steps work well here,
because the RC time constant of the closed-up cube is so big.

10 'heating and cooling a 4' cube of water surrounded by R20 insulation,
20 '   sitting outdoors on a 36 F day, with 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
30 '   passing into one R1 side wall for 6 hours a day
40 '
50 TA = 36'ambient temp
60 V=4^3'volume of water (ft^3)
70 C=64*V'thermal mass of water (Btu/F)
80 UDAY = 16/1 + 5*16/20'daytime thermal conductance of cube
90 UNIGHT = 6*16/20'nightime thermal conductance of cube
100 SUN=16*1000'solar input to sunny side of cube (Btu/day)
110 'solar heating during an average week
120 TSS=36+SUN/(6*UDAY+18*UNIGHT)'estimate steady state water temp
130 TW = TSS'initial water temp
140 FOR DAY=1 TO 7'simulate for a week, day by day
150 EOUT=(6*UDAY+18*UNIGHT)*(TW-TA)'energy flowing out of the cube
160 TW=TW+(SUN-EOUT)/C'new water temp
170 PRINT DAY;TA;TSS;TW
180 NEXT DAY
190 'passive cooling during a cloudy week
200 TWI=TW'initial water temp
210 PRINT
220 RC=C/UNIGHT'time constant of closed and shaded cube in hours
230 FOR DAY=1 TO 7'simulate for a week, day by day
240 EOUT=24*UNIGHT*(TW-TA)'energy flowing out of the cube in an hour
250 TW=TW-EOUT/C'new water temp, calculated arithmetically
260 TEXP=TA+(TWI-TA)*EXP(-24*DAY/RC)' calculated exponentially
270 PRINT DAY;TA;TEXP;TW
280 NEXT DAY

 1  36  113.5194  113.5194  once the cube reaches this temperature,
 2  36  113.5194  113.5194  after a long string of average days,
 3  36  113.5194  113.5194  the temperature does not change...
 4  36  113.5194  113.5194
 5  36  113.5194  113.5194  the south wall damper is open for 6 hours  
 6  36  113.5194  113.5194  a day in this case...
 7  36  113.5194  113.5194

This is an average water temperature. The water would be about
1 F higher at dusk and 1 F lower at dawn, just coasting... :-)

 1  36  111.3695  111.3391  here is how the water temperature of 
 2  36  109.2793  109.2202  the cube changes, with the south wall
 3  36  107.247   107.1609  damper closed all the time, during a week 
 4  36  105.2711  105.1595  without sun, when the air temp is 36 F...
 5  36  103.35    103.2144
 6  36  101.4822  101.324   there's only a small difference between
 7  36  99.66614  99.48676  the arithmetic and exponential solutions...

The outdoor cube temperature decreases slowly during a cloudy week.

How long will it take to reach 80 F?

If T(t) = 80 = 36 + (113.5-36)exp(-t/35), then 44 = 77.5exp(-t/35), 
exp(-t/35) = 0.567, -t/35 = ln(0.567), and t = -35 ln(0.567) = 19.8 days :-)

If the south face of the cube is the back wall of a sunspace which is 80 F
when the sun is shining, ie warmer than the 36 F outdoor temp, and the rest
of the cube walls are inside the 70 F living space of a house, ie they lose
less heat every day than if they lost heat to 36 F outdoor air, the steady
state temperature goes up, so we can store more heat in the cube, ie

Ein = 16K Btu/day, but

Eout = 6 hr (T-80) 16 ft^2/R1      daytime south wall loss with damper open
    + 18 hr (T-36) 16 ft^2/R20     nightime south wall with damper closed
    + 24 hr (T-70) 5*16 ft^2/R20   other walls, 24 hours a day
     = (96+14.4+96)T - 7680 - 518 - 6720, and 

16K + 14,918 = 206.4 T, so T = 30,918/206.4 = 149.8 F, after a long string
of average December days in Phila.

Putting a ground reflector in front of this solar closet, eg snow at
60% reflectivity, raises the solar input above the number given with 
20% ground reflectivity, so Ein = 21.33K and T = 36,251/206.4 = 175.6 F.

How long will this indoor closet take to reach 80 F?

80 = 70 + (175.6-70)exp(-t/35) ==> t = -35 ln(10/105.6) = 31.8 days :-)

I'll offer another $10 to the first person to calculate how the steady state
temp would change, if at this point we add another layer of glazing to the
solar closet, using these assumptions, or any other reasonable assumptions...

Bigger closets have bigger time constants, increasing as their dimension,
squared, so an 8' cube might stay warm for about 4 months indoors :-) 

Nick



From mbaum@worldnet.att.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:53 EDT 1996
Article: 822 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!hustle.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.clark.net!mr.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: mbaum@worldnet.att.net (Mike Baum)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:03:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4o4kdg$aur@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 33.san-francisco-2.ca.dial-access.att.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15373 alt.solar.thermal:822 sci.energy:50132 alt.architecture.alternative:7064 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7020

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

...snip

>How about a walkout basement, since heat rises? The drums might be 2 deep ...snip again

Not to nitpick but since the nature of heat seems rather basic to this
group I question the reference to "heat rising".   Correct me if I am
wrong, but doesn't heat move without regard to up or down. A more
accurate description might be "hot air rises".

I do apologize for this criticism of a worthy post in a worthwhile
thread but the "heat rises" thing kind of gets me going. 
Mike Baum 
email mbaum@worldnet.att.net



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:53 EDT 1996
Article: 823 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: 26 May 1996 16:53:26 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15375 alt.solar.thermal:823 sci.energy:50143 alt.architecture.alternative:7065 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7022

Mike Baum <mbaum@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>
>>How about a walkout basement, since heat rises?...

>Not to nitpick but since the nature of heat seems rather basic to this
>group I question the reference to "heat rising".   Correct me if I am
>wrong, but doesn't heat move without regard to up or down.

Sure, in conduction and radiation.

>A more accurate description might be "hot air rises".

Right. And water above 39 F, and gases, etc.
 
For the last few days I've been trying to think of a way to make heat go down, 
in a house with high thermal mass walls and a heat-trap type "collector," in 
which one wall has an air heater outside the insulation, with an outlet near
the ceiling. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that, simply? Wall
conduction? A ceiling fan? Some sort of slow-moving water?

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:54 EDT 1996
Article: 824 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Will, Will, Will... (was: Nick, Nick, Nick....)
Date: 25 May 1996 05:41:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 159
Message-ID: <4o6kje$qnl@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31A2EFA2.FA5@patriot.net> <4o2rrt$eo5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A66F70.1CAE@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:824 alt.energy.renewable:15379 sci.energy:50172 alt.architecture.alternative:7067

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>[Followups set to alt.solar.thermal so as not to bore the rest
>of the free world...]

You don't want to bore people, eh Will? :-)

>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote;
>> : Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F
>Assuming that you are alluding to my place, show me a 2250 ft^2 house with 
>150 Btu/hr-F loss...

That seems like a non-seqitur... I'd say your place will be a very energy
efficient home, and that's good, and not easy to accomplish...

150 Btu/hr-F was about what we got for its thermal conductance
with the window insulation in place, as I recall.

:and
:a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
:the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
:outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
: a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F.
 
>This would be fine for a house that undergoes these conditions. My house is in 
>an area that goes below 16 F exactly 1% of the time.
>(Reference: "Statistical
>Abstract of the United States", 92nd edition, US Bureau of the Census)

That's a very nice reference, Will.
A good and powerful reference...
But where will your house be? 

The 1993 ASHRAE HOF lists the 99th percentile winter design dry bulb
temperature for Andrews Air Force Base (is that near your house?) as 10 F.
The 97.5% number is 14 F, ie the winter temp there will be less than 14 F
less than 2.5% of the time.

1% of 6 months is about 40 hours. What would the interior temperature of
your "solar house" be after 40 hours, if your house and its 3,300 pounds
of water walls and 3,000 Btu/F of drywall, concrete furniture, etc, start
out at 66 F one fine cloudy morning with the window insulation in place,
when it's 16 F outside, and you are not burning wood or using electricity?
RC = 6300/150 = 42 hours, so T(40) = 16 + (66-16)exp(-40/42) = 35.3 F.
That wasn't hard, was it?

Why call this a solar house, if 56% of its heat comes from the electricity
you use and your bodies, and a lot of the rest will come from burning wood?
And who cares whether it's a solar house? It's an energy-efficient house...
That's good. But it seems to me that it could be vastly improved and made
less expensive in the way it uses the sun for heat and hot water. 

>I wouldn't have electricity off for a couple of days (will have photovoltaic panels
>and battery storage).

Good for you... What does all that cost?
 
>I will have an energy efficient fireplace and will fire it up from time to time,
>especially when extreme weather conditions occur. 

Good for you... Bad for the earth, but nicely nostalgic.  

>> >If the solar house you describe does not have a direct gain thermal storage
>> >capability, aside from room temperature walls and floors, then you could see
>> >something like the above.
>> 
>> I see that _with_ your water walls...
>
>You push heaps of numbers around, but you fail to understand essential aspects
>of thermodynamics.  It's no wonder you don't see...

I wonder where you would find an error in the tiny heap of numbers above...
Never mind... My vision is unlike yours. 

>> >However, if one *does* have thermal storage, such as 4000 lbs of water walls
>> >that are heated by direct solar gain, then these will rise to a higher
>> >temperature than the ambient indoor temperature without raising the indoor
>> >temperature uncomfortably, and will also provide heat by convection and 
>> >radiation.

I thought that was 3,253 pounds of water walls, by your last calculation. 

I suppose these water walls will not be insulated, and they were 4" thick, 
(and cost $2K, + how much per square foot of floorspace?), so they might
have a volume of 50 ft^3, and a surface area of 150 ft^2, on each side,
and the US R-value of a still air film is about 2/3, so they would have
their own RC time constant of 2/3/300ft^2x3253=7.2 hours. Not very long
compared to the time constant of the house, so I don't think their time
constant will matter much as your house cools. If we combined these time
constants by squaring them, adding them, and taking the square root, it
would add another half hour to make a 42.6 hour overall RMS time constant
for your house.

Another simple way to get a feeling for this is to see what the water wall
temperature will be in your 66 F house after 40 hours, if the house somehow
stayed at 66 F the whole time and the water walls were initially 10 F warmer
than the house. (How do these water walls 4" away from the windows affect
the view?) Anyhow... T(40) = 66 + (76-66)exp(-40/7.2) = 66.04 F, not much
warmer than the house... Such is the magic of time constants. They are really
quite useful and simple to use for things that cool. Find the R, find the C,
multiply them together and use that simple formula with the "e-to-the-x"
button on your $20 calculator (this is the inverse of the natural log button
on my Casio fx-991H, which I bought for $19.95 at K-Mart.)

>> R-values include convection and radiation.
>
>(This last line is a keeper, rabbits or no rabbits)
>
>I rest my case.....

Here's a quote from pages 79-80 of _From the Walls In_, Little-Brown, 1979,
by Charles Wing, PhD, physics, formerly an Apollo lunar experimenter at MIT:

   H = A x delta T/R... Thermal resistance, R, is actually defined by
   this equation. In the laboratory the two faces of a slab of insulative
   material are maintained delta T degrees apart, the amount of energy
   per hour required to maintain delta T is measured, and R calculated
   as a result. Of course no house consists entirely of solid uniform slabs
   of material. More typically a wall consists of various layers of boards
   and plaster enclosing a cavity containing either air or a fibrous
   insulating material [or bubbles :-)] To complicate the picture further,
   there may be four surfaces facing air, each of different emissivity!
   How do we calculate the total thermal resistance of such a hodgepodge?
   Here it is worth noting the difference between an engineer and a physicist. 
   The physicist wishes to "understand" physical processes. This has led him
   from being a philosopher of nature (knowing a little about everything)
   through the process of specialization (knowing more and more about less
   and less) to his logical end (someone who knows everything about nothing.)
   On the other hand, the engineer typically cares not a whit for why
   something happens, only how to assign a number to it. Results are what
   counts! Thank God for engineers.

   Here's how the engineer does it. First he builds a sample wall, roof, or
   floor construction. Then he says, "I don't care whether heat is flowing 
   through that thing by conduction, convection or radiation or all three at
   once. The simplest formula I have is for conduction alone, so I'll use it."
   He then performs the conduction experiment (illustration 48), turns the
   calculator crank, and out comes apparent total thermal resistance, R. 

   After performing this experiment dozens of times with different assemblies
   of material and air spaces he can sort out the apparent thermal resistance
   contributions of air surfaces, air spaces, and solid materials. Reversing
   the procedure, he can then predict the total thermal resistance of any
   proposed construction by adding the thermal resistances of each of the
   component parts. And it works!

   Tables 15, 16, and 17 list the thermal resistances of surfaces, air
   spaces and solid materials as discovered by engineers...

Those are R-values. You can see them stamped in big letters and numbers
on rolls of insulation for sale at building supply stores. Ours are much
larger than Europe's. Perhaps we should be proud.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:54 EDT 1996
Article: 825 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Extremely simple
Date: 25 May 1996 06:13:52 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4o6mh0$qot@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31A2EFA2.FA5@patriot.net> <4o2rrt$eo5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A66F26.4189@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:825 alt.energy.renewable:15380 sci.energy:50173 alt.architecture.alternative:7068

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>
>> You have my numbers, Will.
>> Where are your numbers?
>
>I've posted them earlier this week and you've already forgotten?

I think you just told me to redo my numbers, for your house.

>Don't forget you were going to revisit the multiple mistakes you had
>made in your calculations.

No, I just agreed when you said somebody should. It's your house, Will.
 
>Heater Type	Particulate Emissions
>		    g per kg
>
>Open Fireplace      17.3
>Masonry Heaters      2.8
>Reference:  Home Power Magazine, Feb/March 1996

Nice. I wonder where airtight woodstoves with catalysts fit in.

Speaking of logs...

>Natural logs are not a part of arithmetic.  And you should
>have taken the hint when others confirmed that questions such
>as yours require calculus.

You don't need logs or exponentials to size a solar closet, just arithmetic.
Direct gain houses need logs and exponentials. I try to ignore people who
desire to complicate solar house heating. I studied calculus, analysis, etc,
for about 7 years in school, on my way to a masters in electrical engineering,
but I'd like to simplify all this. It seems to me that if we just use some
common sense and arithmetic, we can build much better solar houses, even if
all the calculations are off by 50%. Improving today's solar house designs
is like shooting fish in a barrel. In 20 years, calculus, spreadsheets, and
other computer tools might be more helpful. For now, it seems to me we have
to try very hard just to get in the right ball park.

>> You have failed to answer my many numerical questions...
>
>You have failed to provide truly coherent questions...

That's a two way street, Will. 

>A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, indeed.

I agree.

>Some quotes from people who have mailed me about you;
>
>    "As an aside, if Mr. Pine was an actual working engineer
>     (one with clients and projects), I would doubt that
>     he would have time to indulge in as many "discussions"."

True.

>    "I notice you got sucked into Nick's "black hole" as well.
>     Nick thinks he's god with a capital g, and doesn't have the
>     background to support his raves."

Untrue.

>    "I wouldn't mind if he weren't so arrogant.  I'm beginning 
>     to think he's really a kid, out to impress himself."

Sometimes :-)

>    "If you're like me, you'll probably either toy with him
>     or killfile him."

Perhaps you are toying. Or posturing. Or something.

I try not to quote email in newsgroups, even anonymously, but someone
just sent me some email mentioning you... He said something like "I hope
Will's idiocy isn't getting to you. We are all learning." That was nice
to hear. I'm trying to be very patient and civil, lately :-)

>You might reconsider your attitude towards others in the energy field.

I might. But a lot of them seem to be opportunists or shortsighted criminals.

Was it Disraeli who said "When a man is wrong, and he fails to admit it,
he almost always gets angry"?

Here's a quote from Tom Smith, the inventor of the envelope house:

  I do not forsee any of the systems we now have surviving past the next few
  years. We have created a bit of a Frankenstein with my house here because it
  launched the field of envelope homes and is seen in competition with other
  systems. Nothing could have been further from my intentions...

  I would feel most proud if my house is remembered for being a step in the
  evolution toward mass energy-efficient design, rather than for introducing
  the "most efficient system."

  After working on, literally, hundreds of passive designs, and living in
  this house over the past three years, I am convinced that energy efficiency
  will become considerably less exotic in the future. It is my belief that
  if we just study closely what is going on inside a house, we'll come up with
  some very simple, if prosaic, solutions. If you have ever spent any time
  living in other parts of the world you'd realize that a lot of our energy
  problems stem from just plain doing it wrong. It's a snap to save energy
  in this country. As soon as more people become involved in the basic math
  of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as intellectual, grasp on
  how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

Let me quote the last part again.

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

Tom Smith said that in 1980. 

It hasn't happened yet.

Nick



From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:19:55 EDT 1996
Article: 826 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:06:45 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <4o7i10$onf@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net> <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk> <4o49pj$ige@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-port5.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>gcp <gcp@taynet.co.uk> wrote:

>Who is this UKsian gcp, anyhow? :-) 
argumentum ad hominem?  
>Will he/she unlurk,  ?
Why, would that change your opinion of what I say?
>>William R Stewart wrote, and Nick Pine wrote [blah blah blah...]
Now, I didn't say that last bit!  :-)

>>Didn't I mention something about TIM somewhere?

>I don't recall that. What's a TIM? Or is this your friend Tim?
Strange.  I had a short email correspondence with you about
Transparent Insulation Material.  I even used my real(?) name - first
one anyway.  Unless there are two Nick Pines?  And will the real one
please step forward?
>>Me again:
>>>> >> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,

>Love that phrase... Like "thus we can easily see..." skipping over
>pages and pages of hard mathematics, or enshrouding shaky assumptions...
Shown, as in built - real world!
>>Two types of house were built on a site (in Milton Keynes) one to
>>building regulation standard the other superinsulated.  That was the
>>only difference i.e. window style was normal;  indeed, orientation of
>>the house was to minimise solar gain!
Otherwise it wouldn't have been a test of superinsulation.
>OK. (Architects at work.) Where is Milton Keynes?
>Are these Cornwall houses, surrounded by palm trees and pirates? 
52 3N  0 42W
No.
I have to point out though, that the UK is a less variable climate
than the US both at a particular place, and from place to place.
Definitions of superinsulated will thus vary.
However, insolation is also less here.
But a superinsulated house is basically designed to operate (most of
the time) without addittional space heating.
>I could see that a house like this might not cost more than its "normal"
>neighbor, if all one does is stuff another layer of 1L/m^2 R3 (UK) fiberglass
>in the wall, but not if it means tightening up the house to 0.1 natural
>air changes per hour, vs 1 or 2. Perhaps the "normal" house had 0.1 ACH
>already...? What sells first may be largely a matter of hype.
Less than 0.1air change per hour (ventilation off).
Demonstrated by pressure-testing and also tracer gas.
These were an off-the-peg Scandinavian system.
>>Space heating costs were then 10 to 20 pounds a year.
This is old prices, but inflation has not been large in the
intervening period, and gas prices have gone down in real terms.
So it may be at the upper rather than lower end of that range.
>Unbelievable. I'd like to know more of this story,
>eg their climate and electrical consumption. 
>And the window type and area... 
>How big are these houses? 
Semi-detached, two storey, three bedroom approx. 75 square metre floor
area - pretty normal there.
>Are they bathing machines full of incandescent bulbs?
Compact flourescents haven't fully caught on yet!
>Do people live in them in the winter?
>Is there a winter?
These houses were sold on the open market.  Real, normal people lived
in them and that is what it cost them.  Though as I said originally
this is addittional cost - cooking, lighting, the refrigerator and
other appliances (and living) will contribute to space heating. 
>>As I said:
>>>> >> With windows available now (R-10+) and orientation to make best use of
>>>> >> winter sun I think it is possible to reduce space heating costs to
>>>> >> zero in an otherwise normal house.
>>>> I agree, IF you are willing to live with very few windows.
>>No.  I believe (but I have been known to be wrong  :-)

>Let's check this with a few numbers if possible, gcp... 
>Can we do a little thermal arithmetic here, or do you rely on Unseen Forces?
Unseen Forces - every time  ;-)
I think it was a reasonable assumption for these houses on that site.
And I meant normal in windows as well.
In the more extreme US climate(s) much more rigorous design would be
required.  Such as in the RMI.
They know a lot more than I do - gurus may even be applicable.
>>That in the RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) these sort of windows
>>contribute more heat than they lose -  North facing in the winter.

>That sounds possible, esp in a cloudy climate with lots of diffuse
>solar radiation, which comes from all over the sky, not just the south.
>But what's the whole picture here?
OK, you really need to design for a particular site.
I gave an actual example - how applicable that is is for you to
decide.
The point was efficient space heating design need not require a
dedicated sunspace.  (Hot water is a different matter.)
What is needed is good insulation eg. windows that lose no more heat 
than a good wall.  ('One prototype now being developed has actually
performed better on a daily average in field tests than a highly
insulated (R-19) wall.  At night the superwindow loses a little more
energy than an R-19 wall, but during the day even a minimal amount of
sunlight is sufficient to turn the winbdow into a net energy
provider.':  Scientific American Sept. 1990.  The same article says
they have a payback period of 2 to 4 years - you wont get that from a
bank! (and also that they block UV that fades furniture!))
Just another anecdote. (And I'm not sure about the R-19 as at one
point it mentions R-50 in the same context!)
>>>> >> These houses cost little more than a normal house
>>>> Whoa!!!
>>See above. 
>I repeat. Whoa!!! In rhetoric, an assertion demands no more than a
>counterassertion. I've supplied some numbers, and well-known physicks
>accepted by all but a few self-styled AE gurus, who shall remain nameless,
>like you, and you've supplied an incomplete anecdote thus far, I ween. 
This was not theory, but real houses, and in Scandinavia they are
fairly normal.  (They just cost a bit more to heat there!)




From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:55 EDT 1996
Article: 827 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!news.ossi.com!pagesat.net!jump.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:16:18 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <31A67B82.1B43@patriot.net>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net> <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk> <4o49pj$ige@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-0.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

Nick Pine wrote:

> What we use for glazing is a tradeoff between aesthetics, cost, and
> replacement maintenance. A matter of personal taste, when all is said.

Smartest thing you ever said.

> Physics is not a matter of taste: panels in a sunspace gather more heat
> than rooftop panels.

Evidence by assertion.

> Low-Thermal-Mass Sunspaces (in many forms) are more
> efficient than HTMS at heating attached houses. 

This might be true, but discounts extra living space/time most
HTMS have (assuming people won't want to spend time in a room
with plastic wrapped around cheap piping that is cold as soon as
the sun dips).

>Isolated sunspaces work better than direct gain houses,

More evidence by assertion, and ignores daylighting benefits
of direct gain houses.

> Trombe walls are the pits, performance-wise,

Could you be less technical here, Mr. Wizard?

> and heat stored in a high temp store can keep a house warm longer than
> heat stored in the same thermal mass in the house itself, etc.

Hmm, same mass, same potential energy, same Qout but different results...
Is this the "new math" we've heard about?

> (Repeating obvious truths to people who won't listen.)

The Oracle of Thermodynamics - "R-values include radiation and convection"

> >>> >> If you design your house to be superinsulated, it has been shown that,
> 
> Love that phrase... Like "thus we can easily see..." skipping over
> pages and pages of hard mathematics, or enshrouding shaky assumptions...

Like 'assuming the interior temperature remains at 72 F" and other
'enshrouding' assumptions of yours in the past.
> >This is from a case study book published by the RIBA (Royal Institute
> >of British Architects) - so it's kosher! 
> I suspect architects, even kosher ones.

Admit it, you suspect 99% of the people in the field.

> Altho they were the guys who
> inspired US solar architects in the 1800s... Have they evolved with
> the same fervor as the British Admiralty over the years? 
> I've supplied some numbers, and well-known physicks
> accepted by all but a few self-styled AE gurus, who shall remain nameless,
> like you, and you've supplied an incomplete anecdote thus far, I ween.

You overestimate your flock...

Cheerio,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:55 EDT 1996
Article: 828 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Which direction for ceiling fan?
Date: 27 May 1996 05:22:25 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4obs8h$55l@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4nq870$afg@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <0dn332rx56.fsf@acmey.gatech.edu> <Drturz.3Fq@midway.uchicago.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:19040 sci.energy:50192 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7031 alt.solar.thermal:828 alt.energy.renewable:15387 alt.architecture.alternative:7072

Anna Bordelon <acbordel@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

>We have always used portable box fans (the $20 ones from Woolworth)

Or $12 from K-Mart...

>set right in the window and blowing towards us to keep the room cool. 

Better to close the window during the day and put it on the floor?

>Is there an advantage to using a ceiling fan?

Well, it's more out of the way, and the efficiency of a fan is roughly
proportional to the blade diameter, so big slow fans are more efficient.

>Which kind of fan has the best "electricity used to air moved" ratio?

A $12 Holmes 20" box fan moves about 1,000 cubic feet per minute at 100 watts.
Grainger's $61 4C688 10" circular fan moves 560 CFM at 36 Watts, and has a
nice upper temperature limit of 149 F, which might make it useful in a sauna,
or something like that :-) Their $200 30" 3C686 industrial air circulator
delivers 6,000 CFM at 180 Watts, and their $168 4C721 60" ceiling fan moves
43,700 CFM whilst consuming 130 Watts, but they suggest 20-45 foot ceilings.
You might use this in an apartment, with some paperweights, and their $16.02
5C343 motor speed control, which has a manual low-speed trim adjustment for 
proper restart after a power interruption, to prevent motor overheating. 

Human beings have a thermal conductance of about 2 + V/2 Btu/hr-F-ft^2 in
air moving at V mph. Perspiration can help a lot more. Don't forget concrete
furniture. Does anyone make waterbed sofas or beanbag chairs? Hats with fins?

One of those floating pool chairs, inflated with water?

We need more human heat sinks.

Especially if we are fat.

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:56 EDT 1996
Article: 829 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Wide variance in window performance
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 23:01:50 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <31A7C99E.4776@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-9.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:829 alt.energy.renewable:15392

After obtaining more data from a variety of sources on window performance, I've 
noticed quite a range in even ordinary 2 pane windows with no frills (insulating 
glass).

Company/Window	R-Value   SHGC     UVt %

Hurd
    /Insulating
     Glass        2.0   .55-.66     55

    /Low E Argon  3.8   .37-.51     27
  
    /Heat Mirror  4.0   .35-.45     >.5

    /Insol-8    4.4-6.3 .26.38      >.5

Georgia-Pacific
High Performance
Vinyl
    /Insulating
     Glass        2.04  .78         58
 
    /Pyrolytic
     Mid-E        3.33  .72         47

    /LoE^2        4.17  .41         16


Hurd numbers were derived from Frame 3.0 and Windows 4.0

Pyrolytic Mid-E had a #3 surface emissivity of .2

LoE^2 had a #2 surface emissivity of .04


Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:56 EDT 1996
Article: 830 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.environment,sci.energy.alt.energy,renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Wind and solar power
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 09:29:17 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <31A9AE2D.5A15@patriot.net>
References: <9605020500421385@tglbbs.com> <31985E4B.7867@patriot.net> <3198e08d.30554945@ncrcae.columbiasc.ncr.com> <3199B35A.2382@patriot.net> <hatunenDrGCsr.JEz@netcom.com> <319B0F6F.421B@patriot.net> <4no1ac$k4q@ddi2.digital.net> <31A1A738.4094@patriot.net> <01bb4999.5fa51960$6b093593@JADE.saintmarys.edu> <31a7db10.33460335@agate>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-5.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.environment:95842 alt.solar.thermal:830

Craig Mohn wrote:
> 
> "Richard W. Tarara" <rtarara@saintmarys.edu> wrote:
> 
> >A couple of comments about this (and station-car) thread.  One thing to
> >keep in mind is that eventually renewable energy source MUST replace the
> >'chemical' energy use such as gasoline, fuel oil, natural gas.  With
> >Electrical energy NOW only 14-16% of the total energy picture, the AMOUNT
> >of energy that the renewables will have to produce is staggering!  I had a
> >class do a project a few years ago of designing an energy system for the
> >U.S. in the year 2050 where only 50% of the energy could come from fossil
> >fuels.  We projected moderate population growth, a 25% overall inprovement
> >in energy efficiency,

This is one of the most significant areas of improvement for the economic
success of renewables. For some of the details, see;
       http://www.nrel.gov/documents/erec_fact_sheets/erec.html

- Lighting loads can be reduced by ~70% by use of compact fluorescent bulbs.

- Heating and cooling loads can be reduced dramatically (approaching 100% in some 
  instances) by many alternatives;
 
  - Passive/active solar heating and cooling
  - Evaporative cooling in low humidity areas (e.g., Southwest US)
  - Ground Source Heat Pumps
  - More effective use of insulation, weatherproofing and thermal storage
  - Landscaping: blocking cold north winds with evergreens on the north,
    and shading the house with decidous trees in the summer. (See above 
    reference for more info)

- Appliances are already undergoing signficant energy efficiency improvement, due
  in part to incentives from the US Department of Energy. 

- Hot water heating requirements can be lowered by use of solar hot water supplementing
  and through the use of heat rejection from ground source heat pumps in the summer.

Major improvements can be realized by implementing the above measures, especially moving
>from  electrical resistance heating to solar and/or ground source heat pump.

> >and a very slightly higher standard of living.  Most
> >groups chose to mix nuclear, wind, and solar but ended up with land usage
> >on the order of the area of New Hamphire

This can be dispersed by the use of rooftops, parking lots, and virtually any structure
that receives sunlight for the deployment of photovoltaic panels. 
http://ocaxp1.cc.oberlin.edu/~lwalter/photovoltaic.html

> > and cost estimates in the 10s of
> > TRILLIONS of dollars.

Costs for wind and solar energy have been decreasing every year.  For example,
solar photovoltaic costs have dropped an order of magnitude since the late
1970s.  The aformentioned energy efficiency improvements will also reduce this
cost estimate.  

> >50% of the TOTAL U.S. energy usage is a VERY LARGE
> >NUMBER (on the order of 100 or more times that provided by renewables
> >today!)  Anyway--the point is that the MAGNITUDE of our energy use MUST be
> >kept in mind along with the fact that today 95% of all energy is provided
> >by fossil fuels with most of the rest from nuclear and hydro.  

In the US, the 1994 breakout was:  

   Coal 31%, Gas 27%, Oil 23, Nuclear 10, Renewable 8%

   http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/infocard.html

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From jmucci@umich.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:57 EDT 1996
Article: 831 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-06.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wide variance in window performance
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 11:13:02 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <jmucci-2605961113030001@pm113-06.dialip.mich.net>
References: <31A7C99E.4776@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-06.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:831 alt.energy.renewable:15397

Is that last column UV transmittance in percent?  What wavelength range
are we talking about?  What are those things made of? (And I assume that
should read "<.5" not ">.5".) Those numbers might be correct for UV/VIS
transmittance (say, 800-1 nm).

If glass let through 55% (to take the first ex) of UV light, we'd all get
burnt inside our sunrooms, low or high thermal mass though they be ;-),
and that just doesn't happen.

In article <31A7C99E.4776@patriot.net>, William R Stewart
<wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

| After obtaining more data from a variety of sources on window performance,
| I've  noticed quite a range in even ordinary 2 pane windows with no frills
| (insulating glass).
| 
| Company/Window  R-Value   SHGC     UVt %
| 
| Hurd
|     /Insulating
|      Glass        2.0   .55-.66     55
|     /Low E Argon  3.8   .37-.51     27
|     /Heat Mirror  4.0   .35-.45     >.5
|     /Insol-8    4.4-6.3 .26.38      >.5
| 
| Georgia-Pacific
| High Performance
| Vinyl
|     /Insulating
|      Glass        2.04  .78         58
|     /Pyrolytic
|      Mid-E        3.33  .72         47
|     /LoE^2        4.17  .41         16

<snip>

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:19:57 EDT 1996
Article: 832 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wide variance in window performance
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:05:08 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <4oa9qc$7p4@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <31A7C99E.4776@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-port4.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:832 alt.energy.renewable:15398

William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>After obtaining more data from a variety of sources on window performance, I've 
>noticed quite a range in even ordinary 2 pane windows with no frills (insulating 
>glass).

Here's some more info that might help you.
It's a cut and paste directly from RMI  :-o
Home page URL:
http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/rmi/

QUOTE:
Until recently, most windows were rated on their "center-of-glass" R-
or U-value; such ratings ignore significant heat loss
through the edge of the glass and the frame. A more useful measure is
the "whole-unit" value. When comparing brands or
window types, make sure they're rated in the same way.

Unfortunately, while most high-performance windows cost only 20-50%
more than standard double-pane units , the payback period for such an
upgrade in an existing house is typically 15-20 years. For most
people, that's too long
to be cost-effective. However, if you're planning to replace windows
anyway, you'll recoup the extra cost of high-performance
models in just a few years. In new construction, these windows can
help pay for themselves further by reducing the size (and
hence the cost) of heating and cooling systems required.

State-of-the-art superinsulating windows, or superwindows, combine all
the above advanced features (low-e coatings, gas fill,
good edge seals, insulated frames, and airtight construction) and then
go one better: The low-e coating is applied not to the
glass but to one or two sheets of Southwall Corp.'s Heat Mirror TM, a
transparent polyester film suspended between the glass
panes. The result is windows with whole-unit ratings of up to R-6
(whole unit)--about twice as efficient as the same thickness
of fiberglass.
[This would be around R-10 for just the 'glass' - gcp]

Heat Mirror comes in different "flavors" to block out varying amounts
of solar radiation. For example, Heat Mirror 66 is used
for hot climates and blocks more infrared, while Heat Mirror 88 is
designed to allow more solar gain. Several manufacturers
(such as Hurd, Pella, and Visonwall) use Heat Mirror to make their
superwindows. Viking's new triple-pane window doesn't,
but it has a whole-unit rating comparable to the best superwindows,
and is priced competitively with regular low-e units. 
[the above would seem a good option]

Because of their extra cost, superwindows are most likely to be
cost-effective in very cold climates. Superwindows generally
don't earn their keep in hot climates, where you're better off buying
less expensive low-e windows and using shading
techniques.
                                   
 It's best to order windows locally because they're heavy and fragile
and don't
ship well, and because local window representatives will know what
type of window works best in your climate. Some names
to look out for: Alenco, Anderson, Better-Bilt, Blomberg, Craftline, H
Window, Hurd, Kolbe & Kolbe, Marvin, Milgard,
Northwest, Peachtree, Pella, Pozzi, Viking, Visionwall, Weather
Shield, and Winter Seal.

Southwall, 1029 Corporation Way, Palo Alto, CA 94303 (800/365-8794).
Manufacturer of Heat Mirror. 







From alexw@resumes.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:57 EDT 1996
Article: 833 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: alexw@resumes.com (Alex Walter)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 22:40:58 GMT
Organization: SuperNet Inc. +1.303.296.8202 Denver Colorado
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4od7i9$5fm@news-2.csn.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <3199C082.5A4A@patriot.net> <4nd2ko$8sb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.233.7
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:50225 alt.solar.thermal:833 alt.energy.renewable:15408 alt.architecture.alternative:7080 bit.listserv.geodesic:5017 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7052


Nick Pine  . . . Did you start this thread all about Energy
Consultants?

I'm a learning "energy rater" for Energy Rated Homes of Colorado with
a real world question regarding infiltration.   I say I'm learning as
I've only been dealing with heating and A/C for 30+ years.

In the course of performing Manual J (ACCA) heat gain and loss
calculations I am finding great variances in opinions as to what
should be used  for infiltration figures.  Do you or any others
lurking here have experience using blower doors to measure
infiltration into houses?  AND if you do what do you/would you use as
the infiltration, air changes per hour, into a house if you find that
a 24,160 Cu. Ft. house leaks 3,200 CFM at 50 pascals  negative
pressure?

Using the Manual J detailed infiltration estimate method I come up
with winter AC/Hr = 0.85 and summer AC/Hr = 0.32 AC/Hr.




From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:58 EDT 1996
Article: 834 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 07:37:16 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31A993EC.261D@patriot.net>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-8.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15409 alt.solar.thermal:834

Nick Pine wrote:

> For the last few days I've been trying to think of a way to make heat go down,
> in a house with high thermal mass walls and a heat-trap type "collector," in
> which one wall has an air heater outside the insulation, with an outlet near
> the ceiling. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that, simply? Wall
> conduction? A ceiling fan? Some sort of slow-moving water?

You could use ducting and a fan, as you have mentioned before, to move the hot air
down to your basement thermal store.  You could then use the controls you mentioned
earlier to open dampers to let the hot air naturally convect upwards.

You could also use a low power pump for circulating water the collected heat, by 
using larger than normal pipes and have the minimum number of bends, elbows, and 
other head-adding components. The same convective controls can be used for 
distribution of heat by natural convection.

This is a classic problem active solar designers have been facing and resolving for
decades.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:58 EDT 1996
Article: 835 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: 27 May 1996 11:22:59 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 100
Message-ID: <4ochcj$5qf@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A993EC.261D@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15415 alt.solar.thermal:835 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7057 sci.energy:50234

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>>...I've been trying to think of a way to make heat go down, in a house
>>with high thermal mass walls and a heat-trap type "collector," in which
>>one wall has an air heater outside the insulation, with an outlet near
>>the ceiling. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that, simply? Wall
>>conduction? A ceiling fan? Some sort of slow-moving water?
>
>You could use ducting and a fan, as you have mentioned before, to move the
>hot air down to your basement thermal store.

That's how Norman Saunders, PE, gets warm air out of his attic warmstores
and into the living space... One 1/4 HP fan to move air down from the attic
(where he collects sun thru the roof, with his "$olar $taircase"), and
another to move house air thru his basement coolstore. Cliff house works
this way, with 10K pounds of water in the attic and 20K pounds of rocks in
the basement, in Weston MA. He says the annual operating cost is about $100
for the fans, but I suspect that cost is a bit out of date, since a 1/4 HP
motor probably uses 250 Watts full tilt, and that seems like a lot of power,
even the way Norman uses them, controlling the fans to 16 different speeds
with his custom-designed controller/data logger...

Norman is 80 years old now, and semi-retired, and he was a bit surprised
recently that a good rule of thumb for the cost of electricity is: 1 watt
used continuously costs about $1/year. He was also surprised that swimming
pool tube mat collectors are up to $4/ft^2. I'm sure he would be shocked
at rooftop collector prices. I doubt ever uses those. He also tends to avoid
plastic glazing, but he says he hasn't looked into that in a long time...

A 5' ceiling fan blowing air down through a hole in the ceiling might be
more efficient, to gently pressurize a central area, with some sort of large
air passages into adjacent rooms, eg a large supply grate in the floor of 
the central area to allow air to flow along the basement ceiling and up
into adjacent rooms thru large floor grates, with return air grates to the
attic in the ceilings of each room... The ceiling grates might each have
a 2 Watt $100 Honeywell motorized damper to control the temp in each room.

But I'd like to see Norman's system somehow simplified more and made more
cost-effective. It seems to me that it's better to have the water containers
on the ground instead of in the attic, so the weight and earthquakes are less
problematic, and we can use lower power fans to move air, or with the right 
design, motorized dampers and natural convection, or $12 automatic dampers
with bimetallic springs, that open or close at adjustable threshold temps.

>You could then use the controls you mentioned
>earlier to open dampers to let the hot air naturally convect upwards.

Seems better to just collect the heat in a walk-out basement with a glazed
south wall to begin with. But... I like one way Norman collects heat in the
attic--he glazes the whole south wall of a house to make a huge low-thermal-
mass sunspace, a few inches away from the house wall itself, in some cases,
and lets the warm air rise up to the attic, where it stays trapped, like
heat in an igloo, with the entrance lower then the floor. That kind of solar
collection is completely passive, and doesn't even need dampers, but the
hot air outlet needs to be at the top of the wall, so the natural place to
store heat is in the attic, if you want to use the whole wall... Hmmm. 

>You could also use a low power pump for circulating water the collected heat,
>by using larger than normal pipes and have the minimum number of bends,
>elbows, and other head-adding components.

That's a good idea. You know, Monolithic Domes have remarkably even heat
distribution. They are made with about 2" of reinforced concrete inside
3" of foam insulation, so if the bottom heats up, say with sun through a
window, the warm air goes up to the ceiling and the concrete conducts the
heat back down to the floor level. They say a 200' hemisphere might only
have a 5 F temp difference from top to bottom... But we don't want that all
the time. It would be nice to leave the thermal mass in the dome ceiling hot,
and just bring the heat down controllably, on cloudy days. How can we do
that, a horizontal thermal break? Say an insulating ring of foam, 2" thick
x 3" wide, that breaks the concrete conductivity high up near the dome
ceiling, to isolate the ceiling from the walls, with some simple low-power
way to move heat across the insulation gap? 

On a cold day one might bring the heat down from the high thermal mass
ceiling into the conductive masonry walls of a dome or a room with a new
vaulted stone ceiling, or a house made with cement block walls, by moving
some water thru a few large short pipes that cross a thermal gap near the
ceiling, using a low-power, low-head pump. The pipes might be in a vertical
serpentine pattern, to inhibit natural convective waterflow.

>This is a classic problem active solar designers have been facing and
>resolving for decades.

Resolving more or less well... 

Seems to me this "active/passive" dichotomy has limited further usefulness.
What is more important to me is cost and reliability and performance. Is a 
solar heating system that uses 2 Watt dampers or 36 Watt fans to collect and
distribute 50 kW of sun "active"? Yes, if you are a purist... They used to 
call these "hybrid" systems, eg John Cristopher's 100% solar building in
Nashua, NH, which has a COP of 50 (2% fan power, 98% solar power.) But a
hot air furnace and blower burning 1 gph of oil might use 600 Watts while 
running, so it might have a fossil-fuel COP of 60 or so. Seems like we have
to improve heat distribution systems to raise these COPs. I think we can
make a simple, reliable system with a solar COP of 10,000, with excellent
temperature control, and no backup heat.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:19:59 EDT 1996
Article: 836 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: 27 May 1996 20:15:23 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4odgir$7i5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4od7i9$5fm@news-2.csn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:50236 alt.solar.thermal:836 alt.energy.renewable:15417 alt.architecture.alternative:7085 bit.listserv.geodesic:5018 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7058

Alex Walter <alexw@resumes.com> wrote:

>Nick Pine  . . . Did you start this thread all about Energy Consultants?

I guess so... BTW, there is still an outstanding $10 prize problem... :-)

>I'm a learning "energy rater" for Energy Rated Homes of Colorado with
>a real world question regarding infiltration.   I say I'm learning as
>I've only been dealing with heating and A/C for 30+ years.

So are you one of the opportunists, or one of the shortsighted criminals? :-)

Perhaps you are a farsighted, experienced criminal...

>In the course of performing Manual J (ACCA) heat gain and loss
>calculations I am finding great variances in opinions as to what
>should be used  for infiltration figures.  Do you or any others
>lurking here have experience using blower doors to measure
>infiltration into houses?

I tested and improved two dozen houses around 1975, trying to implode then
with a big squirrel cage blower and a manometer, but haven't done much since,
except look at the numbers in Nisson and Dutt's Superinsulated House book,
and Avis and other housebuilders' numbers. This was interesting work... One
person failed to mention that he had a smouldering woodstove going; one time
the blower ate some window curtains, and almost ate a cat, and I sealed up
one basement so well that the gas heater starved for combustion air...
Strangely enough, I didn't get a lot of demand for my house-sucking services.

These days, it's my impression that when you buy a blower door, it comes
with lots of information on how to interpret the results, with tracer gas
correlations, corrections for building height and windspeed and temperature
(stack effect), and so on. 

>AND if you do what do you/would you use as the infiltration, air changes
>per hour, into a house if you find that a 24,160 Cu. Ft. house leaks
>3,200 CFM at 50 pascals negative pressure?

Nisson and Dutt suggest just dividing the 50 Pa number by 20, so I'd
estimate the natural air infiltratation rate for that house as  
3,200 ft^3/m x 60 m/hr/24,160 ft^3/20 = .4 ACH.

>Using the Manual J detailed infiltration estimate method I come up
>with winter AC/Hr = 0.85 and summer AC/Hr = 0.32 AC/Hr.

Sounds OK to me. I guess a lot of this energy testing is all tied up
with the government and electric utilities now...

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun  5 16:19:59 EDT 1996
Article: 837 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:13:58 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <31AAEE06.127B@patriot.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4od7i9$5fm@news-2.csn.net> <4odgir$7i5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-4.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:50274 alt.solar.thermal:837 alt.energy.renewable:15424 alt.architecture.alternative:7089 bit.listserv.geodesic:5022 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7071

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Alex Walter <alexw@resumes.com> wrote:
> 
> >Nick Pine  . . . Did you start this thread all about Energy Consultants?
> 
> I guess so... BTW, there is still an outstanding $10 prize problem... :-)
> 
> >I'm a learning "energy rater" for Energy Rated Homes of Colorado with
> >a real world question regarding infiltration.   I say I'm learning as
> >I've only been dealing with heating and A/C for 30+ years.
> 
> So are you one of the opportunists, or one of the shortsighted criminals? :-)
> 
> Perhaps you are a farsighted, experienced criminal...

Alex, you'll have to ignore Nick when he gets in these moods.  We try to work
with him, but his manners have a long way to go.  He has a lot of ideas, some
interesting, some wacky, but don't go off and implement anything he recommends
unless you can have the numbers verified.  He tends to ignore infiltration, 
forced and natural convection and radiation in his calculations.

So anyone that doesn't drop all of their ideas and fully embrace his is a 
criminal.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From redrok@pclink.com Wed Jun  5 16:19:59 EDT 1996
Article: 838 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!usenet
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:11:47 -0700
Organization: Red Rock Energy
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-08.pclink.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
To: Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15428 alt.solar.thermal:838 sci.energy:50285 alt.architecture.alternative:7091 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7085

Hi Nick;

Nick Pine wrote:
> For the last few days I've been trying to think of a way to make heat go down,
> in a house with high thermal mass walls and a heat-trap type "collector," in
> which one wall has an air heater outside the insulation, with an outlet near
> the ceiling. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that, simply? Wall
> conduction? A ceiling fan? Some sort of slow-moving water?

This is just an idea to think about. I don't know if it works in the large scale
but it worked in a small model.

I made what looked like a Sterling engine to move air through a solar panel. The
engine was composed of 2 bellows connected to a crank shaft at 90deg. The cold air
(if I remember right) was forced into the collector through one way flapper valves.
The heated air was admitted into and released from the power bellows by a sliding
valve mechanism. These valves were, in the model ,made from scrap fiberglass PC 
board material. The slider would cover and uncover holes on the PC board.

The whole system had very low friction and needed to do very little work, except
to move the air, i.e. no output from the crankshaft. It ran for several years in my 
living room window. I did have to give it a shove every day to start it as it 
was not self starting.

I haven't seen anything similar described any where except for the high speed power
generating Sterlings. The little demo was successful probably because it was slow 
and used very low pressures.

What do you think. Could this be used as a self powered solar air mover? Can a fan
be used on the crankshaft for moving air in adjacent collectors?
-- 
CUL8ER
Duane C. Johnson
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
redrok@pclink.com
(612)426-4766 h  635-5065 d


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:00 EDT 1996
Article: 839 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Making heat flow downhill
Date: 28 May 1996 17:11:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4ofq56$gbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15436 alt.solar.thermal:839 sci.energy:50308 alt.architecture.alternative:7092 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7092

Duane C. Johnson <redrok@pclink.com> wrote:

>Hi Nick;

Hi Duane :-)

>This is just an idea to think about. I don't know if it works in the large 
>scale but it worked in a small model.

OK...

>I made what looked like a Sterling engine to move air through a solar panel.
>The engine was composed of 2 bellows connected to a crank shaft at 90deg.
>The cold air (if I remember right) was forced into the collector through
>one way flapper valves. The heated air was admitted into and released from
>the power bellows by a sliding valve mechanism. These valves were, in the
>model ,made from scrap fiberglass PC board material. The slider would cover
>and uncover holes on the PC board.

I see :-)

>The whole system had very low friction and needed to do very little work,
>except to move the air, i.e. no output from the crankshaft. It ran for
>several years in my living room window. I did have to give it a shove every
>day to start it as it was not self starting.

Wow... :-) This sounds a little like Steve Baer's solar powered "Dubble Bubble
Diving Engine" (US Pat. No. 4,134,264), which was about 6' tall and made
1/2 Watt at 15 rpm :-) I admire your ingenuity...

>I haven't seen anything similar described any where except for the high
>speed power generating Sterlings.

You know, if you had patented your engine, Cummins might be paying you to
use your technique in their liquid sodium version with the concentrating
collector... Even if what you did seemed impractical, your patent might
have covered later more practical applications, altho collecting the money
is a different matter.

It sounds like you had fun and learned by building it, anyway...

>The little demo was successful probably because it was slow 
>and used very low pressures.

So did Steve's engine...

>What do you think. Could this be used as a self powered solar air mover?
>Can a fan be used on the crankshaft for moving air in adjacent collectors?

Seems like it  could,  but what I was looking for was some simple arrangement
of gases and pipes that might do the ceiling-to-floor heat transfer with no
moving parts. The best we've come up with so far is a pipe in the ceiling
slab and a pipe in the floor slab, and some sort of liquid that boils at,
say 75 F half that fills the floor pipe, with the tube to the ceiling pipe
exiting below the liquid level in the floor pipe, and a solenoid and
thermostat (or bellows and valve?) in the down vapor tube from the ceiling
pipe, so that when the room is cooler than 70 F or so, the valve opens to
let vapor from above push liquid up the liquid tube from below...

I wonder how to size something like that to deliver say, 20K Btu/hr with
the ceiling at 80F and the floor at 70F. The heat transfer rate through the
pipe walls might be about 50 Btu/hr-F... Hmmm. 80 ft^2 of pipe walls?

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:00 EDT 1996
Article: 840 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!hookup!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: suggestions for dream house design
Date: 29 May 1996 06:28:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 314
Message-ID: <4oh8t3$jgq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4obsb7$hrl@news.nznet.gen.nz> <daniel-2805962059270001@ffx51.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15443 sci.energy:50335 alt.solar.thermal:840

<daniel@laser.net> wrote:
>gjessup@nznet.gen.nz (Graeme Jessup) wrote:
>> wstewart@patriot.net says...
>> >Peipp wrote:
>> >> I'm planning to build my dream house this summer and fall. My idea of a
>> >> dream house is one that has the following attributes: low cost, labor,
>> >> maintenance, and minimum enviromental impact and utility usage(electric,
>> >> propane, wood), while still being comfortable to live in. I'm going to use
>> >> as much used materials as possible and am shooting for a cost of
>> >> $5-10/ft^2. I will be doing all of the construction myself.
>> >
>> >The most important initial investment you can make right now is purchasing
>> >last year's back issues of Home Power magazine 800-707-6585.  There are even
>> >back issues on the web.
>
>Good suggestion.

Perhaps Home Power has changed. Last time I looked, it was full of PV nuts.
I noticed "low cost," above, but didn't detect any off-the-grid-o-mania in
the original posting :-)

>> >> I'm looking for constructive ideas, comments, and suggestions to improve
>> >> the design, especially in the areas of heating, cooling, and reducing
>> >> labor.
>> >
>> >Home Energy magazine is perfect for this as well.

I subscribed to Home Energy once. It seemed to be dedicated to helping
people in the business of doing energy audits for electric utilities,
for profit. Has it changed?

>> >> The current plans call for a lot of south facing glazing for solar gain,
>> >> 5- 3x8 downstairs windows and 4- 3x5 upstairs windows.
>
>Plan on moveable insulation for your windows and isolating that area from
>from the living space when the sun goes down and the room begins to cool.
>Also plan on shading the windows in the summer.

Why mess with movable insulation if you have a door in an insulated wall?
My impression is that R4 movable insulation costs about $5/ft^2, plus
installation. Does anyone have better numbers?
 
>> >> After seeing all the posts concerning solar rooms and closets I'm now
>> >> wondering if I could get by without backup heat and maybe even eliminate
>> >> the propane water heater. 
>
>Don't bank on it.

At this point, it seems to me we can design an inexpensive 100% solar house
practically anywhere, using NREL weather data and simple physics :-) Norman
Saunders, PE, has been building inexpensive 100% solar houses since 1944,
houses with no other form of heat, in cold, cloudy New England, some of which 
have long track records.

>> >>I still haven't fully grasp the solar closet concept however.
>
>I'm not sure that anyone but Nick has yet.

Ask me a question, if you like. Quite a few others understand this now,
including the technical review committee of the World Renewable Energy
Congress to be held in Denver from June 16-21. 

>Ask for some real world data from any solar closets actually in existance.

Here's the first data we took last fall. Very preliminary, but real data...

                ambient   house    sunspace  drum      sun power  elec power
                temp (F)  temp (F) temp (F)  temp (F)  (w/m^2)    (w)
                 
 11/04  00:05    50.5      65.0     60.1      73.3      1          12
 11/04  00:10    50.0      64.8     60.1      73.3      1          12   
 11/04  00:15    49.8      64.6     60.0      73.3      1          12  
 11/04  00:20    50.2      64.9     59.9      73.3      1          12 
 11/04  00:25    49.8      65.0     59.9      73.3      1          12   
 11/04  00:30    49.3      64.6     59.8      73.2      1          13  
 11/04  00:35    49.4      64.6     59.8      73.2      1          12   
 11/04  00:40    48.9      64.4     59.5      73.2      1          12   
 11/04  00:45    48.6      64.3     59.6      73.2      1          13  
 11/04  00:50    48.8      64.3     59.5      73.1      1          13   
 11/04  00:55    48.3      63.7     59.3      73.1      1          13  
 11/04  01:00    47.8      63.6     59.1      73.1      1          13   
 11/04  01:05    48.1      63.6     59.0      73.0      1          13   
 11/04  01:10    47.9      63.6     58.9      73.0      1          13   
 11/04  01:15    47.6      63.9     58.9      73.0      1          27  
 11/04  01:20    47.5      63.3     58.9      73.0      1          13   
 11/04  01:25    47.6      63.4     59.0      73.0      1          13   
 11/04  01:30    47.2      63.3     58.8      72.9      1          13   
 11/04  01:35    47.6      63.3     58.7      72.9      1          13   
 11/04  01:40    47.1      63.8     58.6      72.9      1          27   
 11/04  01:45    47.5      63.7     58.6      72.9      1          12   
 11/04  01:50    47.1      63.3     58.6      72.9      1          13   
 11/04  01:55    47.2      62.9     58.6      72.8      1          13   
 11/04  02:00    46.8      63.3     58.6      72.8      1          28   
 11/04  02:05    46.8      63.1     58.6      72.8      1          13   
 11/04  02:10    46.6      62.9     58.6      72.7      1          13   
 11/04  02:15    46.8      63.2     58.6      72.7      1          27   
 11/04  02:20    46.5      63.3     58.5      72.7      1          13   
 11/04  02:25    46.0      62.7     58.3      72.7      1          13   
 11/04  02:30    46.6      63.4     58.4      72.7      1          28   
 11/04  02:35    45.7      62.9     58.4      72.6      1          13   
 11/04  02:40    46.4      63.2     58.3      72.6      1          31   
 11/04  02:45    45.6      62.7     58.2      72.6      1          13   
 11/04  02:50    45.5      62.8     57.9      72.6      1          13 
 11/04  02:55    45.0      62.6     57.8      72.5      1          25
 11/04  03:00    44.6      62.8     57.7      72.5      1          13
 11/04  03:05    44.2      62.3     57.5      72.5      1          13
 11/04  03:10    44.2      62.2     57.2      72.4      1          28
 11/04  03:15    43.7      61.7     57.1      72.4      1          13 
 11/04  03:20    43.5      61.6     56.9      72.4      1          28 
 11/04  03:25    43.6      62.2     56.9      72.4      1          13 
 11/04  03:30    44.1      62.1     57.0      72.4      1          13
 11/04  03:35    43.2      62.6     57.0      72.3      1          32
 11/04  03:40    43.3      62.3     57.1      72.3      1          13
 11/04  03:45    43.2      62.5     57.0      72.3      1          13
 11/04  03:50    42.5      62.2     56.8      72.3      1          13
 11/04  03:55    42.1      62.0     56.8      72.2      1          30
 11/04  04:00    42.1      61.6     56.7      72.2      1          12
 11/04  04:05    42.1      61.8     56.5      72.2      1          13
 11/04  04:10    42.0      61.8     56.4      72.1      1          26
 11/04  04:15    42.0      62.1     56.4      72.1      1          13
 11/04  04:20    42.6      62.4     56.4      72.1      1          26
 11/04  04:25    42.1      62.4     56.4      72.1      1          13
 11/04  04:30    42.4      62.4     56.3      72.1      1          12
 11/04  04:35    42.6      62.2     56.3      72.1      1          13
 11/04  04:40    41.7      62.1     56.3      72.0      1          21
 11/04  04:45    41.1      61.6     56.3      72.0      1          13
 11/04  04:50    41.1      62.0     56.2      72.0      1          31
 11/04  04:55    40.7      62.1     56.1      72.0      1          13
 11/04  05:00    40.3      61.6     55.9      71.9      1          13
 11/04  05:05    40.4      61.1     55.7      71.9      1          13
 11/04  05:10    40.0      61.1     55.5      71.8      1          24
 11/04  05:15    40.1      60.7     55.3      71.8      1          13
 11/04  05:20    40.1      61.2     55.3      71.8      1          24
 11/04  05:25    42.0      61.5     55.3      71.8      1          13
 11/04  05:30    40.3      61.1     55.3      71.8      1          25
 11/04  05:35    39.9      61.1     55.2      71.7      1          13
 11/04  05:40    39.5      60.6     55.0      71.7      1          13
 11/04  05:45    39.3      60.9     54.8      71.6      1          28
 11/04  05:50    40.3      60.8     54.7      71.6      1          13
 11/04  05:55    41.0      61.2     54.7      71.6      1          13
 11/04  06:00    39.5      61.1     54.8      71.6      1          28
 11/04  06:05    39.0      60.7     54.8      71.6      1          12
 11/04  06:10    39.4      60.5     54.7      71.5      1          12
 11/04  06:15    40.3      61.3     54.7      71.5      1          30
 11/04  06:20    39.8      60.7     54.7      71.5      0          13
 11/04  06:25    40.0      60.7     54.7      71.5      1          13
 11/04  06:30    39.5      60.9     54.6      71.4      1          29
 11/04  06:35    39.6      60.8     54.5      71.4      3  (dawn)  12
 11/04  06:40    38.4      60.4     54.4      71.4      6          29
 11/04  06:45    38.5      60.1     54.2      71.3      9          13
 11/04  06:50    38.6      60.1     54.2      71.3     12          12
 11/04  06:55    38.5      60.1     54.2      71.3     14          30
 11/04  07:00    38.1      59.2     54.2      71.2     17          13
 11/04  07:05    38.8      59.8     54.3      71.2     20          28
 11/04  07:10    39.0      59.9     54.4      71.2     24          12
 11/04  07:15    38.6      59.8     54.3      71.2     26          26
 11/04  07:20    39.8      60.2     54.5      71.1     29          12
 11/04  07:25    38.7      59.7     54.6      71.1     31          25
 11/04  07:30    39.8      59.9     54.6      71.1     37          12
 11/04  07:35    41.2      60.6     54.6      71.1     88          29
 11/04  07:40    40.0      60.5     54.9      71.1    248          12
 11/04  07:45    41.7      60.5     57.7      71.0    407          12
 11/04  07:50    41.8      61.3     63.5      71.0    449          28
 11/04  07:55    40.9      60.8     68.3      71.0    480          12
 11/04  08:00    40.2      60.6     72.0      71.0    511          16
 11/04  08:05    39.5      60.8     75.5      71.1    534          33
 11/04  08:10    41.1      62.4     79.6      71.2    553          23
 11/04  08:15    40.8      62.4     82.4      71.3    572          24
 11/04  08:20    40.4      62.5     85.2      71.4    598          35
 11/04  08:25    40.5      63.0     87.9      71.5    617          35
 11/04  08:30    40.4      63.6     90.8      71.6    635          35
 11/04  08:35    41.0      64.9     93.9      71.7    655          35
 11/04  08:40    40.9      65.7     96.9      71.8    675          35
 11/04  08:45    40.6      65.5     99.7      71.8    693          34
 11/04  08:50    41.4      66.2    101.6      71.9    709          34
 11/04  08:55    41.1      66.6    104.0      72.0    726          34
 11/04  09:00    41.2      66.8    106.6      72.1    744          34
 11/04  09:05    42.1      67.6    109.0      72.2    757          34
 11/04  09:10    41.9      68.3    111.5      72.4    772          34
 11/04  09:15    41.9      68.3    113.3      72.5    789          34
 11/04  09:20    41.8      69.1    114.7      72.6    805          34
 11/04  09:25    42.2      69.6    116.3      72.7    819          34
 11/04  09:30    43.0      70.5    118.2      72.8    833          34
 11/04  09:35    43.4      72.1    120.4      73.0    847          34
 11/04  09:40    43.0      71.9    121.2      73.1    855          34
 11/04  09:45    44.2      72.6    121.2      73.2    866          34
 11/04  09:50    43.7      72.1    122.0      73.4    876          34
 11/04  09:55    43.2      72.8    122.5      73.5    888          34
 11/04  10:00    43.4      74.1    123.9      73.6    895          34
 11/04  10:05    44.3      75.3    124.6      73.8    882          34
 11/04  10:10    43.7      74.7    124.5      73.9    921          34
 11/04  10:15    46.0      76.7    126.3      74.0    925          33
 11/04  10:20    44.9      77.2    126.6      74.2    813          33
 11/04  10:25    47.1      77.8    122.2      74.2    849          33
 11/04  10:30    47.4      78.4    125.2      74.4    969          33
 11/04  10:35    46.4      78.5    126.8      74.6    977          33
 11/04  10:40    46.3      78.0    126.9      74.7    901          33
 11/04  10:45    45.6      78.9    126.9      74.9    878          33
 11/04  10:50    45.2      78.7    126.1      75.0    927          33
 11/04  10:55    45.4      77.9    123.6      75.0    809          33
 11/04  11:00    46.0      78.5    129.0      75.2   1029          33
 11/04  11:05    47.3      80.9    130.9      75.5    868          32
 11/04  11:10    46.7      80.6    123.2      75.4    854          33
 11/04  11:15    46.7      80.9    126.4      75.6    898          33
 11/04  11:20    47.7      81.6    124.5      75.7    796          33
 11/04  11:25    48.4      82.9    127.4      75.8    959          33
 11/04  11:30    47.7      83.0    129.5      76.1    992          33
 11/04  11:35    48.9      83.1    127.4      76.3    676          33
 11/04  11:40    49.2      82.4    116.9      76.0    507          33
 11/04  11:45    45.9      80.8    122.9      76.0    990          33
 11/04  11:50    45.7      80.1    122.9      76.3    686          33
 11/04  11:55    46.5      81.1    125.6      76.4   1041          34
 11/04  12:00    47.0      82.1    125.4      76.8    788          34
 
>> >Where would you put 30 55-gallon drums?  
>
>Make sure you can get to them to replace them when they leak.

It's a good idea to be able to top them up if they lose some water by
evaporation over the years, through their non-hermetically sealed bungs,
but plastic drums should last a very long time. Steve Baer's metal drums
lasted 20 years. He's now using plastic drums, which he expects will last
a lot longer.

>> >How much insulation is required
>> >to keep them at the supposed design temperature of 130 F?  
>
>A better question may be can you actually achieve a temperature above 90 F
>with this set up?

That's a good question. You need to be careful about air leaks and thermal
bridges. High temps are not hard to come by. We saw 154 F in our sunspace
last winter. Think about stagnated solar collectors. That's what a solar
closet is, with some thermal mass inside, insulated at night... How hot will
your rooftop solar collector get with just one layer of R1 glazing, if it's
30 F outside, and it's getting 300 Btu/hr of sun, and there's no water flow,
and there's noplace else for the heat to go except back out thru the glazing?
Ohm's law for heatflow, aka Newton's law of cooling, says delta T = U x R,
ie T = 30 F + 300 Btu/hr x R1 = 330 F. Would you disagree with that, Dan?

>> >>Also what about radiant floor heat? 
 
>...dont overlook the formidable plumbing problems you will encounter when
>you try to connect a radient loop (which can have no air blockage) with
>55 gal drums.

Why do all that? Just let some warm air rise up into the house from the
solar closet in the basement... If you want a radiant floor, you can heat
it with hot air from below: insulate the ceiling of the closet, and open 
up a motorized damper to let some warm air out of the closet to pool below 
the basement ceiling and heat the first floor from below. If the air below
an R1 30 x 30' floor is 80 F, (80-70) 30x30/R1 = 9K Btu/hr will flow up
through the floor into the 70 F room, more if the floor is not perfectly
airtight. Warm air rises, so if the basement is fairly airtight, the warm 
air will stay near the ceiling, vs. heating the whole basement.
 
>Just an aside, I've seen a lot of crap posted lately about roof panels.

Me too. For instance, some people say they are economical.

>For the record, in 6 years of installing, maintaining, removing and
>reinstalling roof panels for new shingles, I have never once, NEVER, been
>called back for a roof leak. I have 15 year old installations that are
>just as leak proof as the day they went in.

I'm sure you do better work than many in this field, Dan. Back in February,
Pat Hennin from Shelter Institute told me that for a few years, they were
getting phone calls _every day_ from people who wanted their rooftop panels
removed, for various reasons: water leaks, roof leaks, complicated systems
that had stopped working, with nobody around who knew how to fix them,
aesthetics, selling the house, broken glass, etc. That isn't to say this
can't be done right, just that often, it isn't.

>Yes, they are expensive, and may not pay back for 7 to 10 years.

Let's see... Here's one scenario: you buy one or two new 4 x 8 rooftop
solar water heating panels for $30/ft^2 (?), and pay someone $200 (?) to
install them on the roof with some $50 mounting brackets, and run 40 feet
of $1/foot insulated pipe down to the basement, where there are two $50
pumps and a $50 tank and a $50 heat exhanger and a $150 differential
thermostat and miscellaneous plumbing to connect all this to an existing
water heater, and the 50 Watt pumps run 1,500 hours a year, ie 1500 kWh/year,
another $15 worth of electricity, and the whole system lasts forever...
requiring no mantenance, and collects 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun every day,
ie 23 million Btu/year, equivalent to 180 gallons of oil/year, say $180's
worth? So... We've invested $2560 in this system, to save $165/year, net,
so the simple payback is 15.5 years. Not bad, but it seems to me that
there are better places to invest money, and I'm not sure about all these
costs and assumptions. Perhaps you have more accurate numbers.

>But quality panels, made of extruded aluminum and good grade copper with
>glass glazings should last at least five times that, maybe much more.

Agreed.

>Tell me they're not worth the cost after 50 years of replacing your
>polyethelene sheets every 2 or 3 years.

For some people who don't have much money, poly film, or clearer long-life
Mylar film is a good way to go. Recycling it every 3 years takes about an
hour, if you use the right hardware, ie 16 hours over 50 years. Greenhouse
UV poly film costs 5 cents/ft^2, and it's guaranteed for 3 years. With a
piece of shadecloth over it in the summer, it should last longer.

But there are more than two choices. Many people might prefer polycarbonate
plastic or glass to polyethylene sunspace glazing, with some sort of bare
water heating panels, eg Big Fins, inside the sunspace, with no pumps or
heat exchangers, with warm water naturally rising up to a conventional water
heater upstairs that seldom turns on, and the "waste heat" heating the house.
If you can read a book in your sunspace on a sunny winter afternoon, the
economics change...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:01 EDT 1996
Article: 841 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 29 May 1996 08:17:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15445 sci.energy:50339 alt.solar.thermal:841 alt.architecture.alternative:7094

Gene A. Townsend <wings@primenet.com> wrote:
>76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM) wrote:
>>I have a 50 gal electric hot water heater in My Attick . I was thinking of
>>running about 120 feet of 1.5 " pvc pipe back and forth in the attick to
>>bost the hot water supply...

I wonder if you can somehow put the pipe under the water heater... Build a
shallow glazed box on the south wall of your house, with some pipe running
along the top edge, inside the box? Or put the pipe in a sunspace, or put
it near the peak of the attic, and use a small circulating pump... 

>>the attack maintains a temp of around 95-110 ( monitored useing a min-max
>>thermotere. at night it cools to around 75-90 depending on the outside
>>temp ( have an ovesized attack fan on a thermostat up there). My question is:
 
>>A) how long will it take for the water in the pipe to reach temp?
 
120' of 1.5" pipe has an area of about 47 ft^2, and the thin pipe wall has
a large thermal conductance (10?) compared to the still air film around it,
which has a thermal conductance of about 1.5 Btu/hr-F-ft^2. If the pipe
contains 10 gallons of water, by Gene's calculation, it will have an RC
time constant of 10gx8lb/g/1.5/47 = 1.13 hours. So if the water starts out 
at say, 60 F, and it sits in a 100 F attic for t hours, its temp T(t) will
follow T(t) = 100 - (100-60)exp(-t/1.14)). After 1 hour, it should have a 
temperature of T(t) = 100 - 40exp(-1/1.14) = 83.4 F. After 2, 93 F, after
3 hours, 97 F, etc.

>>B) has any one had any experience with this idea before is there any
>>thing i need to watch out for?

Watch out for freezing... But if your water heater plumbing hasn't ever
frozen in your attic, chances are the PVC pipe won't either. If you don't
use any hot water at all in your house, how long will it take this pipe to
freeze solid and burst and flood your house, when your attic is -1 F, the
record min temp in Columbia, SC? Delta T would be 33 F, with U about
1.5 Btu/hr-F, and the pipe has 47 ft^2 and there is 80 lb of water inside,
and it takes 144 Btu to freeze a pound of water. So... 144x80 = tx33x1.5x47,
ie t = 5 hours. But the pipe might not freeze evenly. A little heat tape
with a thermostat might not be a bad idea.

Another thing to watch out for is hydraulic short circuits. You don't want
the incoming cold water to somehow end up coming out of the shower instead
of the hot water that is inside the water heater. 

>The PVC pipe must go on the cold water side of the heater...

Seems like it might help a lot, if it's in a loop below the water heater,
so it can heat the water in the heater over and over, vs just heating the
incoming cold water in one pass.
 
>...now if only those pipes were painted black and put on the outside...

Good idea. Near the top of a shallow glazed box on the south wall? Say the
box were 12'wide x 16' tall x 3 1/2" thick, over an edgewise 2x4 frame with
no insulation around the edges, and the glazing were 4 $50 4' x 12' sheets
of Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate plastic greenhouse roofing material,
with your 47 ft^2 of dark painted pipes in a 10' x 20" rectangle near the
top edge, and you had a $50 motorized damper behind them to allow some
warm air to flow into the house when you had enough hot water, but needed
some house heat (two thermostats), on an average January day in Columbia,
with 1140 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling on the south wall, at an outdoor temp
of 55 F. If you kept the box at 130 F inside, you might collect 50K Btu/day
of hot water that way on a 6 hour day, while 6(130-55)192ft^2/R1 = 86K of
heat passed back out through the glazing, and you could put the rest of the
sun's heat, ie 0.9x1140x192 - 86K = 111K Btu/day into the house, saving
the heat equivalent of about a gallon of oil a day in the winter.

Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
space and collect more heat for the house?

Nick



From gast17@ Wed Jun  5 16:20:01 EDT 1996
Article: 842 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
From: gast17@
Subject: Re: MAKE BIG MONEY FAST!!!
Reply-To: gast17@
References: <4nok1r$cmj@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2
Message-ID: <31ac8b4e.0@news.uni-konstanz.de>
Date: 29 May 96 17:37:18 GMT
Lines: 36
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-konstanz.de!
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7102 sci.energy:50359 alt.energy.renewable:15446 alt.solar.thermal:842 alt.architecture.alternative:7095

In <4nok1r$cmj@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>  Here's another litmus test for an energy expert: what will the average water
>  temperature be inside a 4' cube full of water surrounded by 5 R20 foam walls,
>  sitting outside in December, when the air has an average 24 hour temperature
>  of 36 F and the sun puts 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of heat into the R1 glazed side
>  of the box? And how will that change over time if we shade the sunny wall?
>  Anyone care to answer that question? I'll offer a $10 reward to the first
>  person who answers it correctly.
> 
>Still only 3 numerical answers to this simple question so far. Two people got
>part 1 correct, and one has almost solved part 2 using simple arithmetic, but
>there's still a chance for the right person to earn $10 in 2 minutes with
>a couple of back of the envelope calculations... This might also be a rare
>opportunity for someone else to get paid to learn :-)
>
>Here's a big hint: If a "solar house" has a heat loss of 150 Btu/hr-F and
>a thermal capacity of about 8,000 Btu/F, so RC = 8,000/150 = 53 hours, and
>the house starts out with an interior temperature of 68 F when it's -10 F
>outside, with no electric or wood heating, and no sun, the interior temp after
>a couple of days will be approximately - 10 + (68-(-10))exp(-48/53) = 31.5 F. 
>
>Another slightly less accurate way to do this is to find the energy lost
>during the first hour, assuming the interior temperature is constant over
>the hour, find out how much the thermal mass has to cool to supply that
>heat loss, find the new interior temperature, find the energy lost in the
>second hour, and so on...
>
>Nick
>
>It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
>involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
>intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.
> 
> 					  Tom Smith 
> 



From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:01 EDT 1996
Article: 843 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!bofh.dot!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!snare.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: suggestions for dream house design
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 15:41:16 -0500
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <dan_settles-2905961541170001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4obsb7$hrl@news.nznet.gen.nz> <daniel-2805962059270001@ffx51.laser.net> <4oh8t3$jgq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: snare.cellbio.duke.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15447 sci.energy:50367 alt.solar.thermal:843


> >Ask for some real world data from any solar closets actually in existance.
> 
> Here's the first data we took last fall. Very preliminary, but real data...
> 
>                 ambient   house    sunspace  drum      sun power  elec power
>                 temp (F)  temp (F) temp (F)  temp (F)  (w/m^2)    (w)
>                  
>  11/04  00:05    50.5      65.0     60.1      73.3      1          12
>  11/04  00:10    50.0      64.8     60.1      73.3      1          12   
>  11/04  00:15    49.8      64.6     60.0      73.3      1          12  
>  11/04  00:20    50.2      64.9     59.9      73.3      1          12 
> >

> Nick

Hi Nick,

I took a few minutes to plot the data you posted.  It was interesting to
look at some real data points.  I was wondering under what conditions this
test was performed.  This doesn't appear to be the test box on the roof
that I have heard you talk about before.  Is this data from a solar closet
in a real house that someone is living in currently?  Can you give a few
more details regarding the size of the closet, water volume, collector
size, insulation, etc.  

Not that you seem to need any defense, but I enjoy reading the creative
and inexpensive solar heaing ideas you have.  Keep it up.

Dan Settles


From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:02 EDT 1996
Article: 844 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!snare.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:10:02 -0500
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: snare.cellbio.duke.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15448 sci.energy:50369 alt.solar.thermal:844 alt.architecture.alternative:7096

In article <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

> Gene A. Townsend <wings@primenet.com> wrote:
> >76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM) wrote:
> >>I have a 50 gal electric hot water heater in My Attick . I was thinking of
> >>running about 120 feet of 1.5 " pvc pipe back and forth in the attick to
> >>bost the hot water supply...
> 
> I wonder if you can somehow put the pipe under the water heater... Build a
> shallow glazed box on the south wall of your house, with some pipe running
> along the top edge, inside the box? Or put the pipe in a sunspace, or put
> it near the peak of the attic, and use a small circulating pump... 
> 
> >...now if only those pipes were painted black and put on the outside...
> 
> Good idea. Near the top of a shallow glazed box on the south wall? Say the
> box were 12'wide x 16' tall x 3 1/2" thick, over an edgewise 2x4 frame with
> no insulation around the edges, and the glazing were 4 $50 4' x 12' sheets
> of Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate plastic greenhouse roofing material,
> with your 47 ft^2 of dark painted pipes in a 10' x 20" rectangle near the
> top edge, and you had a $50 motorized damper behind them to allow some
> warm air to flow into the house when you had enough hot water, but needed
> some house heat (two thermostats), on an average January day in Columbia,
> with 1140 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling on the south wall, at an outdoor temp
> of 55 F. If you kept the box at 130 F inside, you might collect 50K Btu/day
> of hot water that way on a 6 hour day, while 6(130-55)192ft^2/R1 = 86K of
> heat passed back out through the glazing, and you could put the rest of the
> sun's heat, ie 0.9x1140x192 - 86K = 111K Btu/day into the house, saving
> the heat equivalent of about a gallon of oil a day in the winter.
>

Instead of running the pipe along the top of the box, how about running it
through a few of the water filled barrels?  If you used flexible plastic
tubing you could probably loop a couple hundred feet inside barrels.  Run
the tubing in an opening, coil it around the sides and run it back out
again.  You could hook up several of these in series and have a heat
exchanger that should heat the incoming cold water much faster than pipes
exposed to the air in the box. 

> Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
> sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
> foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
> sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
> space and collect more heat for the house?

This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.  I'd like to
have a collector that doubles as a sun space, but I don't want to sit in a
130 F room, even in January, and 80 F won't get the water hot enough.  Do
you mean the sunspace would be in addition to the shallow box?  So the
collector for the solar closet would be located at the back of the sun
space?

Dan Settles
> 
> Nick


From chad_b@wcla.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:02 EDT 1996
Article: 845 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.tamu.edu!newshost.comco.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!news
From: Chad Berreau <chad_b@wcla.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:08:04 -0500
Organization: Wirtanen Clark Larsen Architects, Inc
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <31ACCAC4.14B3@wcla.com>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.199.124.109
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15452 sci.energy:50376 alt.solar.thermal:845 alt.architecture.alternative:7097

Dan Settles wrote:
> 
> In article <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
> (Nick Pine) wrote:
> 
> > Gene A. Townsend <wings@primenet.com> wrote:
> > >76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM) wrote:
> > >>I have a 50 gal electric hot water heater in My Attick . I was thinking of
> > >>running about 120 feet of 1.5 " pvc pipe back and forth in the attick to
> > >>bost the hot water supply...
> >
> > I wonder if you can somehow put the pipe under the water heater... Build a
> > shallow glazed box on the south wall of your house, with some pipe running
> > along the top edge, inside the box? Or put the pipe in a sunspace, or put
> > it near the peak of the attic, and use a small circulating pump...
> >
> > >...now if only those pipes were painted black and put on the outside...
> >
> > Good idea. Near the top of a shallow glazed box on the south wall? Say the
> > box were 12'wide x 16' tall x 3 1/2" thick, over an edgewise 2x4 frame with
> > no insulation around the edges, and the glazing were 4 $50 4' x 12' sheets
> > of Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate plastic greenhouse roofing material,
> > with your 47 ft^2 of dark painted pipes in a 10' x 20" rectangle near the
> > top edge, and you had a $50 motorized damper behind them to allow some
> > warm air to flow into the house when you had enough hot water, but needed
> > some house heat (two thermostats), on an average January day in Columbia,
> > with 1140 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling on the south wall, at an outdoor temp
> > of 55 F. If you kept the box at 130 F inside, you might collect 50K Btu/day
> > of hot water that way on a 6 hour day, while 6(130-55)192ft^2/R1 = 86K of
> > heat passed back out through the glazing, and you could put the rest of the
> > sun's heat, ie 0.9x1140x192 - 86K = 111K Btu/day into the house, saving
> > the heat equivalent of about a gallon of oil a day in the winter.
> >
> 
> Instead of running the pipe along the top of the box, how about running it
> through a few of the water filled barrels?  If you used flexible plastic
> tubing you could probably loop a couple hundred feet inside barrels.  Run
> the tubing in an opening, coil it around the sides and run it back out
> again.  You could hook up several of these in series and have a heat
> exchanger that should heat the incoming cold water much faster than pipes
> exposed to the air in the box.

This barrel/coiling method sounds to be a great solution.  I would think 
that it would increase the rate of heat transfer to the water with less 
space.
 
> > Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
> > sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
> > foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
> > sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
> > space and collect more heat for the house?
> 
> This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.  I'd like to
> have a collector that doubles as a sun space, but I don't want to sit in a
> 130 F room, even in January, and 80 F won't get the water hot enough.  Do
> you mean the sunspace would be in addition to the shallow box?  So the
> collector for the solar closet would be located at the back of the sun
> space?

Just make it a tall thin space.  The bottom portion would be where you 
would reside with your greenhouse plants.  Towards the top would be 
where the works would reside with all the "hot air".  To prevent 
overheating, vent excess hot air to adjoining internal spaces.  Or 
incorporate some shading measures designed only to shade during 
the hottest times of the day/year (i.e. a small treless(sp) with 
folage(sp) for summer, that is then bare in the winter.

The barrel concept could be used here.  Where the barrels were sort of 
suspended in the air, or on a cat walk.  with some dangling plants along 
the base of it and lights for night time use.  Sort of soften the solar 
ambience a bit.

'Just $.02 worth of info.'



> Dan Settles
> >
> > Nick

-- 

Chad Berreau


From alexw@resumes.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:03 EDT 1996
Article: 846 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: alexw@resumes.com (Alex Walter)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.geodesic,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: "Energy consultants"
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 23:46:45 GMT
Organization: SuperNet Inc. +1.303.296.8202 Denver Colorado
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31acbf45.3060915@news-2.csn.net>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <319AAF35.40B4@patriot.net> <4nfed6$f9j@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4od7i9$5fm@news-2.csn.net> <4odgir$7i5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.233.31
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:50381 alt.solar.thermal:846 alt.energy.renewable:15453 alt.architecture.alternative:7098 bit.listserv.geodesic:5031 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7104

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:


>
>Nisson and Dutt suggest just dividing the 50 Pa number by 20, so I'd
>estimate the natural air infiltratation rate for that house as  
>3,200 ft^3/m x 60 m/hr/24,160 ft^3/20 = .4 ACH.
>
>>Using the Manual J detailed infiltration estimate method I come up
>>with winter AC/Hr = 0.85 and summer AC/Hr = 0.32 AC/Hr.

Where does Nisson and Dutt's work fit into this?  Are/were they by
chance at Princeton U?  I have an article which says that in 1982,  J.
Kronvall and Andrew Persily did some work in New Jersey and Sweden
which proved ACH50/20 to be fairly reliable.  The factors not taken
into consideration include stack effect, wind shielding, and types of
leaks.

Next  Max Sherman a  researcher at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
developed a model which does take into account, climate, height, wind
shielding, and  crack/hole size.  Sherman found that the correction
factor could be as small as 6 and as large as 40.  So . . . the
ACH50/20 rule of thumb could overestimate infiltration by a factor of
two or underestimate it by a factor of about three.

The climate correction factor for Denver is 15 to16 whereas  New
Jersey  in the 17-20 range.  The climate correction factor takes into
account average temperature and windiness.

With all the factors considered the so called ACH50 number gets
divided by about 13.5 in the example case above to yield about 0.6
AC/Hr.  

The difference between 0.6 and 0.85 ACH is substantial when doing a
heat loss calculation.  The old school engineers would use 0.85 ACH
with the idea that if big is good bigger is better.  Being a younger
:-) school type at age 56 I'll use the 0.6 figure to keep the furnace
size on the low side so if the temperature falls below the design temp
by one degree I can be sure the furnace is running 100% of the time.
Where the other guys install a 140 mbtu furnace I install a 120 mbtu
furnace and so far my customers have not been cold even on those few
design temp days we have had in the last few years.
>
>Sounds OK to me. I guess a lot of this energy testing is all tied up
>with the government and electric utilities now...

With the competitive environment surrounding public utilities they
don't put as much effort or manpower into consumer education as they
used to.  SO . . . that leaves me an opportunity to be an energy
expert, i.e. "certified rater" for Energy Rated Homes of Colorado.




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:03 EDT 1996
Article: 847 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 30 May 1996 03:33:56 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15462 sci.energy:50398 alt.solar.thermal:847 alt.architecture.alternative:7101

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
 
>> I wonder if you can somehow put the pipe under the water heater... Build a
>> shallow glazed box on the south wall of your house, with some pipe running
>> along the top edge, inside the box? Or put the pipe in a sunspace, or put
>> it near the peak of the attic, and use a small circulating pump... 
 
>> >...now if only those pipes were painted black and put on the outside...
 
>> Good idea. Near the top of a shallow glazed box on the south wall? Say the
>> box were 12'wide x 16' tall x 3 1/2" thick, over an edgewise 2x4 frame with
>> no insulation around the edges, and the glazing were 4 $50 4' x 12' sheets
>> of Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate plastic greenhouse roofing material,
>> with your 47 ft^2 of dark-painted pipes in a 10' x 20" rectangle near the
>> top edge, and you had a $50 motorized damper behind them to allow some
>> warm air to flow into the house when you had enough hot water, but needed
>> some house heat (two thermostats), on an average January day in Columbia,
>> with 1140 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling on the south wall, at an outdoor temp
>> of 55 F. If you kept the box at 130 F inside, you might collect 50K Btu/day
>> of hot water that way on a 6 hour day, while 6(130-55)192ft^2/R1 = 86K of
>> heat passed back out through the glazing, and you could put the rest of the
>> sun's heat, ie 0.9x1140x192 - 86K = 111K Btu/day into the house, saving
>> the heat equivalent of about a gallon of oil a day in the winter.

Oops, too many Btus...

197K Btu of sun gets into the sunspace, and
 86K leaks back out of the glazing (2 layers would help here), and 
 59K allegedly goes into the hot water, leaving
----
 61K for the house.

>Instead of running the pipe along the top of the box, how about running it
>through a few of the water filled barrels?

Water filled barrels? Where are the barrels? There's no solar closet here, 
altho there could be... This is just a sunspace with a bare water type solar
collector inside, that circulates its hot water through a conventional water
heater on the floor above by thermosyphoning, natural warm water convection...
If all goes well, the water heater heating element seldom turns on.

>If you used flexible plastic tubing you could probably loop a couple
>hundred feet inside barrels.  Run the tubing in an opening, coil it around
>the sides and run it back out again.  You could hook up several of these
>in series and have a heat exchanger that should heat the incoming cold water
>much faster than pipes exposed to the air in the box. 

True, but if we had a solar closet, it seems simpler to just put 10-20' of
fin-tube pipe near the ceiling, an air-water heat exchanger that works 24
hours a day, to heat water in a water heater upstairs by thermosyphoning
again. Seems to me it would be difficult to make water flow through all
that plastic tubing without a pump, and you might have evaporation at the
points where the tubing enters and leaves the drums. If the tubing is in
series with the water heater, which is inside the solar closet, the water
supply pressure could move the water through the plastic pipe, once, but 
it's more efficient to have the water continuously circulate through the
heat exchanger, to make a heat exchanger with a given surface area do more 
of a full-time job, rather than have the water only pass through it once.
 
>> Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
>> sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
>> foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
>> sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
>> space and collect more heat for the house?
>
>This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.

The usual way is some sort of bare solar collectors inside a sunspace,
eg Zomeworks Big Fins, which are flat aluminum extrusions, about 4' long
and 8" wide, painted black on one side, that clip on to and are supported
by standard copper pipes running along the back side... Then there's the
standard water heater upstairs and a thermosyphoning water loop from the
Big Fins to heat it, when the Big Fins are warmer than the water in the
water heater. So in this usual case, the fins and pipes are, say 130 F,
with the sun shining on them, but the sunspace is only 80 F.

>I'd like to have a collector that doubles as a sun space, but I don't want
>to sit in a 130 F room, even in January, and 80 F won't get the water hot
>enough.

I see what you mean... If you put Big Fins or a bare solar panel in your
sunspace, IT would be 130 F with the sun shining on it, but your sunspace
could be 80 F, with some solar heat going out the glazing and some warm air
flowing into the house. The losses from the 130 F collector would be heating
your house, vs the outside world, which is a good thing... And you don't
need a big heavy expensive weatherproof insulated collector on the roof,
where you may break your neck trying to fix it, which is a good thing.

However, in this case we have 47 ft^2 of surface area, but only half faces
the sun, or a little more if we spread the pipes out to 24 or 36" vs 20"
so they shade each other less when the sun is not striking them head on...
and we want to collect a typical hot water heating load of 50K Btu/day...
How can we do that? The PVC pipes themselves, painted a dark color, might
absorb 20-30K Btu/day. How can we collect another 20-30K? Perhaps we can also
use them as an air-water heat exhanger... 47 ft^2 of pipe with 80 F water
inside can collect about (130F-80F)47x1.5 = 3750 Btu/hr of heat ie 22K Btu
per day, if the air around it is 130 F, even with no sun shining on the pipe.

>Do you mean the sunspace would be in addition to the shallow box? 

I had in mind that the black pipe manifold would be up near the top of the
lean-to sunspace. Since warm air rises, we can trap heat up there, stratified
hot air, much warmer than the rest of the sunspace. It would be a good idea
to put an extra layer of glazing across the top 4' of the 16' high x 12' wide
sunspace, on the inside, in front of the black pipes, here -  
.                                                           |
.  <--------------------------------------------------------
. .           sun
.
.   .   16'
.     
.     .
.  8'
.........

>So the collector for the solar closet would be located at the back of
>the sun space?

Yes, if there were one, but then we wouldn't need the black pipes, just a
little fin-tube pipe near the top of the closet, working 24 hours a day...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:03 EDT 1996
Article: 848 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 30 May 1996 03:53:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4ojk56$1s2@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <31ACCAC4.14B3@wcla.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15463 sci.energy:50400 alt.solar.thermal:848 alt.architecture.alternative:7102

Chad Berreau  <chad_b@wcla.com> wrote:
 
>The barrel concept could be used here.  Where the barrels were sort of 
>suspended in the air, or on a cat walk...

Might make for an interesting tension in the humans beneath, since 55 gallon
drums weigh about 500 pounds each :-) Is there a swimming pool like that in
Barcelona, with something huge suspended over the pool...?

How would we keep all the heat in the drums at night?
Seems like they need insulation around them at night.

I'd put 'em on the ground, so they don't fall on people's heads, inside a box
with insulation all round, with one side facing the sun, inside the sunspace,
and the other sides inside the house, perhaps. A solar closet, that stores
heat for the house for several days, and makes hot water with a fin-tube pipe.

So... the sun shines in through the sunspace glazing, then thru the 80 F
sunspace, then it shines on thru the solar closet glazing, then on thru an
air gap containing 130 F air (_not_ the same air as the 80 F sunspace air),
where it finally hits the outside of the dark-colored insulation of the
south wall of the solar closet, which warms the insulation, which heats the
130 F air, which air passes thru a one-way damper to heat the drums inside
the box, and the air returns about 5 F cooler from a hole at the bottom of
the box to this air heater, and runs around again.

At night, the air damper closes, the fan, if any, stops, the air stops
circulating in and out of the box, and the drums are insulated all round.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:04 EDT 1996
Article: 849 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: estimating natural air infiltration rates for buildings
Date: 30 May 1996 04:35:06 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <4ojmjq$1t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31919236.39F7@xs4all.nl> <4od7i9$5fm@news-2.csn.net> <4odgir$7i5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31acbf45.3060915@news-2.csn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:50402 alt.solar.thermal:849 alt.energy.renewable:15465 alt.architecture.alternative:7103 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7109

Alex Walter <alexw@resumes.com> wrote:
>Where does Nisson and Dutt's work fit into this?

They wrote _The Superinsulated Home Book_, Wiley, 1985, ISBN 0-471-88734-X.
Page 221 says
   
   An accurate prediction of the natural air infiltration equivalent to
   specific blower-door measurements is far less useful for a superinsulated
   house than for a conventional house, because natural air infiltration in
   the former case is very small--most of the air entering or leaving the
   envelope is acounted for in the controlled ventilating system. For this
   reason, even a crude formula relating pressurization leakage to natural
   air infiltration should suffice for a superinsulated house. Such a crude
   relationship is:

     typical winter natural air infiltration rate (acph) =
     average leakage at 50 pascals (acph)/20.

   The natural air infiltration rate is roughly one twentiieth of the
   leakage measured by a blower door at an inside-outside pressure
   difference of 50 pascals.

   We call this the "divide by 20" formula.

They go on to say "the measured air leakage under pressurization q(50) of
superinsulated houses should be below 3 air changes per hour and preferably
around 1 acph. 1-3 acph at 50 Pa corresponds to natural air infiltration
rates of about 0.05 to 0.15 acph. Intentional ventilation supplied by the
ventilation system should supplement this to provide the total ventilation
desired. If a total ventilation of 0.5 acph is desired, the ventilation
system should be designed to provide 0.4 (+/- 0.05) acph."

>Are/were they by chance at Princeton U?

They were. Ned Nisson now publishes an energy newsletter for builders, 
with an office in New York City. I don't know what became of Gautam Dutt.

>I have an article which says that in 1982, J. Kronvall and Andrew Persily
>did some work in New Jersey and Sweden which proved ACH50/20 to be fairly
>reliable.  The factors not taken into consideration include stack effect,
>wind shielding, and types of leaks.

I guess that's where that ACH50/20 formula came from then...

>Next  Max Sherman a  researcher at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
>developed a model which does take into account, climate, height, wind
>shielding, and  crack/hole size.  Sherman found that the correction
>factor could be as small as 6 and as large as 40.  So . . . the
>ACH50/20 rule of thumb could overestimate infiltration by a factor of
>two or underestimate it by a factor of about three.

Hmmm. The underestimation would be seriouser.

>The climate correction factor for Denver is 15 to16 whereas  New
>Jersey  in the 17-20 range.  The climate correction factor takes into
>account average temperature and windiness.

I wonder how it does that.

>With all the factors considered the so called ACH50 number gets
>divided by about 13.5 in the example case above to yield about 0.6
>AC/Hr.  

OK. Could you tell us in a very simple way, how that /20 formula changes
with building height and outdoor temperature and windspeed? Is this stuff
in manual J? Where do we get a manual J?

>The difference between 0.6 and 0.85 ACH is substantial when doing a
>heat loss calculation.  The old school engineers would use 0.85 ACH
>with the idea that if big is good bigger is better.  Being a younger
>:-) school type at age 56 I'll use the 0.6 figure to keep the furnace
>size on the low side...

I suppose the difference between 0.1 and 0.15 is less important. I wonder
how the airleakiness of a house changes over time... I'm 49, BTW, I wonder
how old these old-school creatures are :-)

>>I guess a lot of this energy testing is all tied up with the government 
>>and electric utilities now...
>
>With the competitive environment surrounding public utilities they don't
>put as much effort or manpower into consumer education as they used to.

That might be good :-)

>SO . . . that leaves me an opportunity to be an energy
>expert, i.e. "certified rater" for Energy Rated Homes of Colorado.

Sounds nice :-) Is that a rating service or a house manufacturer, or...?
I wonder if you will be rating any solar homes as some define them, ie
those with no other form of heat, not even internal heat gain from
electrical usage.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:04 EDT 1996
Article: 850 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: armoire solaire du jour
Date: 30 May 1996 08:26:13 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <4ok455$2dd@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: today's solar closet example
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15467 sci.energy:50407 alt.solar.thermal:850 alt.architecture.alternative:7105

A very-well-insulated house, not to scale:
                                                 No air infiltration
                                  30'            No internal heat generation
     30 F                ---------------------- 
     1,000 Btu/ft^2/day |         R30          | R30 average walls and ceiling
       in December      |                      |
                        |R30                   |     ==> heat loss on average
       top view         |                   R30|         December day =
                     R1 |        2-story       |         24h(70-30)3000/R30
   sun              ----|         house        |         = 96K Btu.
                   |    <==                    |  30'
                 R1|    | R10    surface area  |     Each square foot of
                   |    |---     ~2,000 ft^2   |         sunspace collects
              12'  | SS |   |       walls +    |         1000 Btu/day and 
                   |   R| S |10'  1,000 ft^2   |         loses 6(80-30)
                   |   2| C |R10    ceiling    |         = 300, for a net
Hmmm. If the       | 8'0| 4'|                  |         gain of 700, so
sunspace has        ---- ----------------------          we need 96K/700
128 ft^2 of R1                                           = 137 ft^2 of 
sidewalls and       R10-----------R30----------          sunspace here, 
a R10 roof, it     |    D ==>                  |R        eg 12' x 16' x 8'
will lose another  |    |   sunspace heats     |3        deep... (?)
6(80-30)128/R1     | SS |       house on an    |0
= R38K of heat     |    |R10    average day.   | 16'     <==Yes, another
thru the           |   R|   |R                 |         55 ft^2 should make
sidewalls...       |   2|SC |1 8'              |         up for the sidewall
                   |   0|   |0                 |         loss...
         --------------------------------------------------
                             west view
Larger detail:

                   |            |      daytime airflow within closet
                   |            |     /
     sun           |            |--------------      
                   |   80 F     | D ==>        |  D is a one-way damper
                   |   sunspace | |  20        |
                   |            | |  drums     |
                   |            | |            | <--insulated wall
                   |            | |  130 F     |
                   |            | |    SC      |
                   |            | |            |
      reflective?  |reflective? |   <==        |
          ---------------------------------------------------
                                  ^--insulated wall

We need to store about 500K Btu for 5 days w/o sun, ==> 500K/25K = 20
55 gallon drums full of water, cooling from 130 F to 80 F, which will
fit in a space about 4' wide x 8' tall x 10' long.

In this case, the closet glazing would be 8' x 10' and there would be
20*25 ft^2 of drum area, ie a glazing/thermal mass area of 6.25:1, so
one might want to use a small fan to circulate air thru the solar closet
when the sun is shining. Grainger's 4C688 560 cfm 36 W 149 F fan might
be nice, with a thermostat set to 130 F in a glass box to turn it on.
If the closet were taller or had a larger ratio of container/glazing
area, it might not need a fan.

If the solar closet has R20 insulation on the south side and R10 on the
other sides, and it isn't needed to keep the house warm on an average night,
and it doesn't make hot water, here's how to find the water temp T inside...

80x1000 Btu = 6 hr(T-80)80ft^2/R1     for the south wall, day
	    +18 hr(T-30)80/R20                  "         night
	    +24 hr(T-70)224ft^2/R10   for the other 5 walls, night

ie      80K = 480T  - 2880
	    +  72T  - 2160
	    + 538T  - 38K

            = 1090T - 42,672

or    1090T = 122692 or T = 122692/1090 = 112.5 F.

So, this closet could use a reflector in front or a little more glazing
or a little more insulation... Let's try a reflector to get 33% more sun:

      1090T = 80K x 1.33 + 42692 = 149K Btu/day, so T = 137 F :-)

Nick



From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:05 EDT 1996
Article: 851 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!snare.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:47:36 -0500
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: snare.cellbio.duke.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15475 sci.energy:50417 alt.solar.thermal:851 alt.architecture.alternative:7106

In article <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
>  
> 
> >Instead of running the pipe along the top of the box, how about running it
> >through a few of the water filled barrels?
> 
> Water filled barrels? Where are the barrels? There's no solar closet here, 
> altho there could be... This is just a sunspace with a bare water type solar
> collector inside, that circulates its hot water through a conventional water
> heater on the floor above by thermosyphoning, natural warm water convection...
> If all goes well, the water heater heating element seldom turns on.
> 

My mistake.  I was thinking of the solar closet idea.

> >If you used flexible plastic tubing you could probably loop a couple
> >hundred feet inside barrels.  Run the tubing in an opening, coil it around
> >the sides and run it back out again.  You could hook up several of these
> >in series and have a heat exchanger that should heat the incoming cold water
> >much faster than pipes exposed to the air in the box. 
> 
> True, but if we had a solar closet, it seems simpler to just put 10-20' of
> fin-tube pipe near the ceiling, an air-water heat exchanger that works 24
> hours a day, to heat water in a water heater upstairs by thermosyphoning
> again. Seems to me it would be difficult to make water flow through all
> that plastic tubing without a pump, and you might have evaporation at the
> points where the tubing enters and leaves the drums. If the tubing is in
> series with the water heater, which is inside the solar closet, the water
> supply pressure could move the water through the plastic pipe, once, but 
> it's more efficient to have the water continuously circulate through the
> heat exchanger, to make a heat exchanger with a given surface area do more 
> of a full-time job, rather than have the water only pass through it once.

Okay, why not put the water heater inside the solar closet instead of
upstairs?  The heater is now in the 130 F room, so you don't need to
circulate water through it in order to keep it warm. The tubing would be
connected to the cold water input, so the water pressure provides all the
pumping energy. 100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water
pipe from Home Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x
100 x 12 = 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2.  How does this compare with the fin
tube that you suggested?  I imagine the fin tube might make a more
efficient air-water heat exchanger, but maybe in a water-water heat
exchanger the plastic tubing might be a good, cheap alternative.  I agree
that evaporation may occur where the tubing enters and exits the barrel,
but I imagine that some type of gasket or pressure-type fitting could be
made to minimize the water loss. 

> >> Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
> >> sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
> >> foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
> >> sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
> >> space and collect more heat for the house?
> >
> >This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.
> 
> The usual way is some sort of bare solar collectors inside a sunspace,
> eg Zomeworks Big Fins, which are flat aluminum extrusions, about 4' long
> and 8" wide, painted black on one side, that clip on to and are supported
> by standard copper pipes running along the back side... Then there's the
> standard water heater upstairs and a thermosyphoning water loop from the
> Big Fins to heat it, when the Big Fins are warmer than the water in the
> water heater. So in this usual case, the fins and pipes are, say 130 F,
> with the sun shining on them, but the sunspace is only 80 F.

How much are the Big Fins?  Do you have phone number for the company?

> 
> >I'd like to have a collector that doubles as a sun space, but I don't want
> >to sit in a 130 F room, even in January, and 80 F won't get the water hot
> >enough.
> 
> I see what you mean... If you put Big Fins or a bare solar panel in your
> sunspace, IT would be 130 F with the sun shining on it, but your sunspace
> could be 80 F, with some solar heat going out the glazing and some warm air
> flowing into the house. The losses from the 130 F collector would be heating
> your house, vs the outside world, which is a good thing... And you don't
> need a big heavy expensive weatherproof insulated collector on the roof,
> where you may break your neck trying to fix it, which is a good thing.
> 
> However, in this case we have 47 ft^2 of surface area, but only half faces
> the sun, or a little more if we spread the pipes out to 24 or 36" vs 20"
> so they shade each other less when the sun is not striking them head on...
> and we want to collect a typical hot water heating load of 50K Btu/day...
> How can we do that? The PVC pipes themselves, painted a dark color, might
> absorb 20-30K Btu/day. How can we collect another 20-30K? Perhaps we can also
> use them as an air-water heat exhanger... 47 ft^2 of pipe with 80 F water
> inside can collect about (130F-80F)47x1.5 = 3750 Btu/hr of heat ie 22K Btu
> per day, if the air around it is 130 F, even with no sun shining on the pipe.
> 
> >Do you mean the sunspace would be in addition to the shallow box? 
> 
> I had in mind that the black pipe manifold would be up near the top of the
> lean-to sunspace. Since warm air rises, we can trap heat up there, stratified
> hot air, much warmer than the rest of the sunspace. It would be a good idea
> to put an extra layer of glazing across the top 4' of the 16' high x 12' wide
> sunspace, on the inside, in front of the black pipes, here -  
> .                                                           |
> .  <--------------------------------------------------------
> . .           sun
> .
> .   .   16'
> .     
> .     .
> .  8'
> .........
> 
> >So the collector for the solar closet would be located at the back of
> >the sun space?
> 
> Yes, if there were one, but then we wouldn't need the black pipes, just a
> little fin-tube pipe near the top of the closet, working 24 hours a day...
> 
> Nick


From pngai@adobe.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:05 EDT 1996
Article: 852 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!newshub.csu.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!chronicle.mv.us.adobe.com!enquirer.mv.us.adobe.com!neutra.mv.us.adobe.com!not-for-mail
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Wide variance in window performance
Date: 28 May 1996 19:47:17 -0700
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4ogdrl$ecs@neutra.mv.us.adobe.com>
References: <31A7C99E.4776@patriot.net> <4oa9qc$7p4@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: neutra.mv.us.adobe.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:852 alt.energy.renewable:15477

This is all very nice, but in my shopping, adding Southwall Heat Mirror
raised the window price by a startling amount, considering that
"it's just a piece of plastic film".

I ended up with LOE2.

-- 
	Will IBM do for MacOS what they did for OS/2?


From A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:05 EDT 1996
Article: 853 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nntp.onyx.net!newsmaster
From: Andy Kirby <A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: 30 May 1996 20:28:25 GMT
Organization: Cyber Dev L.T.D.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4ol0d9$7v6@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: r03a-30.onyx.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: redrok@pclink.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15481 alt.solar.thermal:853 sci.energy:50438 alt.architecture.alternative:7109 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7117

Here's a couple of sackless ideas (or maybe there noT)

Does anyone remember seeing a toy boat that used a
spirit burner to power the boat around a bath.
INside the boat was a tube which had a coil over the
burner flame. The inlet and outlet were on the rear of the boat.
I dunno what principle this device used but maybe there is
something in the principle.

Idea two how about using a peltier effect module to generate
electricity from the temperature difference and blow air/pump
water around the system. This would be self regulating. The greater
difference in temperature the greater the flow of heat transfering
medium.

Another interesting effect that may be of use is that used in the
gas refrigerator. I remember my great grandmother having one when
i was a kid. somehow the gas is burned and causes a cooling effect
by heating some part of a closed loop volatile liquid system.

OK the last idea heat pipes !!!!!
There have been some astounding papers published on these and
they seem to be good at moving heat from A to B. I gather that they
are used in satelite technology to transfer heat from the sunward
side of the device to the shadow side where the heat is disipated
into space.

Sorry but i just had to get those of my chest.
Unfortunately my knowledge in some of those areas is lacking so i can 
not illuminate further as yet.

Andy Kirby
(A.Kirby@cyberdev.octacon.co.uk)



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:06 EDT 1996
Article: 854 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 30 May 1996 17:32:53 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15482 sci.energy:50442 alt.solar.thermal:854 alt.architecture.alternative:7110

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>> >(Nick Pine) wrote:

>Okay, why not put the water heater inside the solar closet instead of
>upstairs?  The heater is now in the 130 F room, so you don't need to
>circulate water through it in order to keep it warm.

Right, but that way, the water needs to be heated on the way in, in a
single pass. After it's in the water heater, it won't gain much heat.

>100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water pipe from Home
>Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x >100 x 12
>= 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2. How does this compare with the fin tube that you
>suggested?

10' of fin-tube pipe gains about 50 Btu/hr per degree of air-water temperature
difference, and your pipe with 1/8" walls (?) might have a U-value of 10, with
a water-pipe-water interface, so it might gain 229 Btu/hr-F. If the incoming
water only passes through it once, at, say 3 gpm, and the pipe has a volume
of 1/2 gallon, the water will only be in the pipe for about (1/2)/3 = 1/6 min
or 1/360 hour, so if it starts out at 60 F, say, it will gain at most
1/360(130-60)x229 = 44 Btu, which will heat that 4 pounds of water to 70 F,
on the way into the water heater.

At that point, if the water heater is insulated, the 70 F water won't gain
much heat from the closet air. But say the water heater has no insulation...
Say it's a bare galvanized tank... (Which would make for a large backup water 
heating bill as the closet air temp drops to 80 F over 5 cloudy days.) If the
tank is bare, eg 6' tall x 1' diameter, it will have a volume of 4.7 ft^3,
holding 36 gallons or 292 lb of water, with a surface area of about 20 ft^2 
and a U-value of 1.5 Btu/hr-F, so the tank will have an RC time constant of
292/(20x1.5) = 9.7 hours, so heating that 70 F water to 110 F (a nice shower
temp) in the 130 F room will take time t, where 110=130-(130-70)exp(-t/9.7),
ie 0.846 = -60exp(), or exp() = -0.0141 or t = -9.7 ln(-0.0141) = 9.6 hours. 
Not exactly a fast recovery time for a water heater...

>I imagine the fin tube might make a more efficient air-water heat exchanger,

Well, the water can move through it more than once... How long would it take
36 gallons of water to heat from 60 to 110 F with the fin-tube pipe? RC =
292/50 = 5.84 hours, so t = -5.84ln(-0.0141) = 5.8 hours. Hmmm. Let's try
20'... 2.92 hours, so t = 2.9 hours... Still not very exciting. Let's try a
fan coil unit (overkill), e. g. the $139 all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct
heat exchanger made by Magicaire, attached to the $318 4C860 Grainger fan
which moves 1840 cfm at 0.125" H20 of static pressure, and has an upper temp
limit of 311 F. This duct heat exchanger can transfer 45K Btu/hour between
125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop, ie
789 Btu/hr-F. So now we have RC = 292/789 = 22 minutes and t = -22ln(0.0141)
= 22 minutes. But at that rate, we will run out of closet heat fast. We don't
need that much not water, on the average. So maybe we just need a bigger
tank, and, say 20' of fin-tube... or your plastic pipe setup with a small
circulator pump. But there's another bottleneck there, getting the heat
>from  the air into the drums. It helps if the drums are on top... 

>maybe in a water-water heat exchanger the plastic tubing might be a good,
>cheap alternative.  I agree that evaporation may occur where the tubing
>enters and exits the barrel, but I imagine that some type of gasket or
>pressure-type fitting could be made to minimize the water loss. 

Perhaps it's really just a matter of taste... Some fin-tube pipe with a
conventional water heater upstairs appeals to me...

>> >> Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
>> >> sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
>> >> foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
>> >> sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
>> >> space and collect more heat for the house?
>> >
>> >This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.
>> 
>> The usual way is some sort of bare solar collectors inside a sunspace,
>> eg Zomeworks Big Fins, which are flat aluminum extrusions, about 4' long
>> and 8" wide, painted black on one side, that clip on to and are supported
>> by standard copper pipes running along the back side... Then there's the
>> standard water heater upstairs and a thermosyphoning water loop from the
>> Big Fins to heat it, when the Big Fins are warmer than the water in the
>> water heater. So in this usual case, the fins and pipes are, say 130 F,
>> with the sun shining on them, but the sunspace is only 80 F.
>
>How much are the Big Fins?  Do you have phone number for the company?

Big Fins cost a lot, $4/ft^2? Because that's what Zomeworks (505) 242-5354
charges for them... And I'm not even sure they make 'em anymore... But they
work very well. It wouldn't be too hard to make something up like this on
one's own. A big plate with a good bond to a 3/4" copper pipe behind it,
and some dark paint, or maybe some Ovshinsky PVs glued to the front (or
electrodeposited on the front--hard to do at home.) Bare water-type solar
collector absorber plates would work well in a sunspace, but they would
probably need a pump, since the water passages tend to be small.

Or you could try making something attached to the north wall of the sunspace
with a single large piece of EPDM rubber, a bladder, folded at the bottom,
with silicone caulk and a 2x4 sandwich to seal the side edges and a piece of
dark painted sheet metal to keep it from bellying out too much to the south.
Sven Tjernagel has site-built about 700 large collectors like this over the
last 20 years for commercial uses, for hotels and car washes, each being up
to 10' tall x 50' long, with a materials cost of about $1/ft^2...

Nick



From 76345.2033@compuserve.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:06 EDT 1996
Article: 855 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster
From: 76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:58:41 GMT
Organization: AMR Services
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4ol9d5$gnn@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd05-032.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15484 sci.energy:50450 alt.solar.thermal:855 alt.architecture.alternative:7111

dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles) wrote:

>In article <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
>(Nick Pine) wrote:

>> Gene A. Townsend <wings@primenet.com> wrote:
>> >76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM) wrote:
>> >>I have a 50 gal electric hot water heater in My Attick . I was thinking of
>> >>running about 120 feet of 1.5 " pvc pipe back and forth in the attick to
>> >>bost the hot water supply...
>> 
>> I wonder if you can somehow put the pipe under the water heater... Build a
>> shallow glazed box on the south wall of your house, with some pipe running
>> along the top edge, inside the box? Or put the pipe in a sunspace, or put
>> it near the peak of the attic, and use a small circulating pump... 
>> 
>> >...now if only those pipes were painted black and put on the outside...
>> 
>> Good idea. Near the top of a shallow glazed box on the south wall? Say the
>> box were 12'wide x 16' tall x 3 1/2" thick, over an edgewise 2x4 frame with
>> no insulation around the edges, and the glazing were 4 $50 4' x 12' sheets
>> of Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate plastic greenhouse roofing material,
>> with your 47 ft^2 of dark painted pipes in a 10' x 20" rectangle near the
>> top edge, and you had a $50 motorized damper behind them to allow some
>> warm air to flow into the house when you had enough hot water, but needed
>> some house heat (two thermostats), on an average January day in Columbia,
>> with 1140 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling on the south wall, at an outdoor temp
>> of 55 F. If you kept the box at 130 F inside, you might collect 50K Btu/day
>> of hot water that way on a 6 hour day, while 6(130-55)192ft^2/R1 = 86K of
>> heat passed back out through the glazing, and you could put the rest of the
>> sun's heat, ie 0.9x1140x192 - 86K = 111K Btu/day into the house, saving
>> the heat equivalent of about a gallon of oil a day in the winter.
>>

>Instead of running the pipe along the top of the box, how about running it
>through a few of the water filled barrels?  If you used flexible plastic
>tubing you could probably loop a couple hundred feet inside barrels.  Run
>the tubing in an opening, coil it around the sides and run it back out
>again.  You could hook up several of these in series and have a heat
>exchanger that should heat the incoming cold water much faster than pipes
>exposed to the air in the box. 

>> Now why not make that shallow box on the wall a bit bigger, say a lean-to
>> sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with a pebble floor and a railroad tie
>> foundation, and a picnic table, and use a bit more PVC pipe and keep the
>> sunspace temp at 80 F in January, to add some interesting daytime living
>> space and collect more heat for the house?

>This sounds nice, but I can't picture how this would work.  I'd like to
>have a collector that doubles as a sun space, but I don't want to sit in a
>130 F room, even in January, and 80 F won't get the water hot enough.  Do
>you mean the sunspace would be in addition to the shallow box?  So the
>collector for the solar closet would be located at the back of the sun
>space?

>Dan Settles
>> 
>> Nick
Andy Here again, to bring this back to reality . I live on the outer
banks of north Carolina . This area is prone to lots of hurricanes and
high winds , and if thats not a convincing argument about cutting
holes in my Roof.  The roof is 60-60 feet  above ground . All house
that are built here must be bult on piling  in case of costal
flooding. 
  This is my thinking on this project

store 20 gal of water in the pipes before its fed into the Electric
Hot water heater and the heater will only have to heat it from say
90-100 deg to the 130-140 the heater operates at. with the fact that
most hot water uses are less then 20 gal this should lead to x% of
savings in energy. I all ready have a shutdown timer on the heater ,
it kills the electric to the heater for a total of 10 hours a day
(energy saving of 10-20% per year).  Can any one quantify how much %
or $ this will save, Yes i know that i have to bypass the system for
the 4-5 months of winter or i will lose energy.

Thanks for all your input
AndyM



From michaelc@netwave.net Wed Jun  5 16:20:07 EDT 1996
Article: 856 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!osshe.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!whales.netwave.net!pppm6.netwave.net!user
From: michaelc@netwave.net
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: 31 May 1996 01:15:12 GMT
Organization: Netwave Internet, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <ebohlmanDrxJnL.Gn3@netcom.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pppm6.netwave.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:106592 alt.energy.renewable:15485 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1328 alt.solar.thermal:856 sci.energy:50462

In article <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net>, grobe@netins.net wrote:

>In article <ebohlmanDrxJnL.Gn3@netcom.com>, ebohlman@netcom.com (Eric
Bohlman) writes:
>>Donald Kulha (dkulha@wco.com) wrote:
>>
>>: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
>>
>>:    The proposed newsgroup is primarily for discussion of
>>: independently powered off-grid homes and business with an
>>: emphasis on renewable energy power sources and real-world
>>: applications of this technology.
>
>Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?

It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
much less than that.

Very small power needs covering micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc and also
small scale heating&cooling also would be a needed newsgroup in my 
opinion as I have been studying homepower for the past 6 months.

I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower

Regards,
Michael


From jkoch@hunt.jhuapl.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:07 EDT 1996
Article: 857 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!aplcenmp!netnews.jhuapl.edu!usenet
From: John Koch S1c <jkoch@hunt.jhuapl.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:39:00 -0400
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31AF0484.7DF1@hunt.jhuapl.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com> <4ol0d9$7v6@mulgave.octacon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hunt.jhuapl.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; HP-UX A.09.05 9000/715)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15496 alt.solar.thermal:857 sci.energy:50488 alt.architecture.alternative:7115 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7137

Andy Kirby wrote:
> Does anyone remember seeing a toy boat that used a
> spirit burner to power the boat around a bath.
> INside the boat was a tube which had a coil over the
> burner flame. The inlet and outlet were on the rear of the boat.
	Yes and you can get one from American Science & Surplus at
http://www.sciplus.com/.  It is in their online catalog in the
"experments" section and is listed as "Lil' Putt Putt". 
"Only" $11.95  :)

John Koch


From aaasolar@rt66.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:07 EDT 1996
Article: 858 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!pmd11.rt66.com!aaasolar
From: aaasolar@rt66.com (Chuck Marken)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Used Liquid Collectors for sale
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:12:49
Organization: Engineering International, Inc.
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <aaasolar.45.000C3708@rt66.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmd11.rt66.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]

We have a variety of sizes and brands. We can provide LARGE matched sets.      
 $90-$200 depending on quantity and size.  AAA Solar Supply.  800 245 0311


From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:08 EDT 1996
Article: 859 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!scramble.lm.com!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!cowbell.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:54:31 -0400
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <dan_settles-3105961354310001@cowbell.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cowbell.cellbio.duke.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15500 sci.energy:50501 alt.solar.thermal:859 alt.architecture.alternative:7116

In article <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
> >> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
> >> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
> 
> >Okay, why not put the water heater inside the solar closet instead of
> >upstairs?  The heater is now in the 130 F room, so you don't need to
> >circulate water through it in order to keep it warm.
> 
> Right, but that way, the water needs to be heated on the way in, in a
> single pass. After it's in the water heater, it won't gain much heat.

That's true.  With the insulation on the heater, it will gain heat from
the room very slowly, but if I have the water heater temperature set at
129 F, the heating elements should never have to turn on to maintain that
temperature after it reaches 129 F.  How much energy does a typical hot
water heater use just to keep the water hot until we are ready to use it
vs heating the incoming cold water?  Also, the conventional heater outside
the solar closet will heat the air in the house.  In the winter, this
wouldn't be a problem, but this would be a liability in the summer,
especially in warmer areas like the south. I'm not sure how significant
these factors would be, but it would be interesting to find out.

> 
> >100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water pipe from Home
> >Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x >100 x 12
> >= 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2. How does this compare with the fin tube that you
> >suggested?
> 
> 10' of fin-tube pipe gains about 50 Btu/hr per degree of air-water temperature
> difference, and your pipe with 1/8" walls (?) might have a U-value of 10, with
> a water-pipe-water interface, so it might gain 229 Btu/hr-F. If the incoming
> water only passes through it once, at, say 3 gpm, and the pipe has a volume
> of 1/2 gallon, the water will only be in the pipe for about (1/2)/3 = 1/6 min
> or 1/360 hour, so if it starts out at 60 F, say, it will gain at most
> 1/360(130-60)x229 = 44 Btu, which will heat that 4 pounds of water to 70 F,
> on the way into the water heater.
> 
Actually, the 100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter tubing would have a
volume of 2 gallons, so the water would be in the tube for 2/3 min or
2/180 hour with a gain of 
2/180 (130-60) x 229 = 178 Btu.  Unfortunately, those 178 Btu's now have
to heat 16 pounds of water, so that doesn't really change anything does
it?  It looks like I'd have to increase the length of the pipe in order to
get any greater increase in water temperature.  So, if I put in 500 feet
of tubing, the water would be in the pipe 5 times longer, and I'd have 10
gallons or 80 lb of water. So I'd gain at most, 10/180 (130-60) x (229 x
5) = 4452 Btu.  Is that correct?  That should heat the water to 110 F, and
in addition I'd have 10 gallons at 130 F.   However, his would now cost me
$300 and the resistance of the extra length of pipe would probably start
to slow down the flow rate.  Not to mention dealing with 500 feet of
pipe.  

> At that point, if the water heater is insulated, the 70 F water won't gain
> much heat from the closet air. But say the water heater has no insulation...
> Say it's a bare galvanized tank... (Which would make for a large backup water 
> heating bill as the closet air temp drops to 80 F over 5 cloudy days.) If the
> tank is bare, eg 6' tall x 1' diameter, it will have a volume of 4.7 ft^3,
> holding 36 gallons or 292 lb of water, with a surface area of about 20 ft^2 
> and a U-value of 1.5 Btu/hr-F, so the tank will have an RC time constant of
> 292/(20x1.5) = 9.7 hours, so heating that 70 F water to 110 F (a nice shower
> temp) in the 130 F room will take time t, where 110=130-(130-70)exp(-t/9.7),
> ie 0.846 = -60exp(), or exp() = -0.0141 or t = -9.7 ln(-0.0141) = 9.6 hours. 
> Not exactly a fast recovery time for a water heater...
> 
How about using two tanks, the first being the above mention galvinized
tank and the second being a conventional hot water heater?  It's not quite
as interesting as a fin tube, but it would give you plenty of hot water
during sunny days, and it would cost you less than a conventional heater
after those 5 cloudy days.  You'd still have your incoming cold water
preheated to 80 F before entering the conventional heater.  

> >I imagine the fin tube might make a more efficient air-water heat exchanger,
> 
> Well, the water can move through it more than once... How long would it take
> 36 gallons of water to heat from 60 to 110 F with the fin-tube pipe? RC =
> 292/50 = 5.84 hours, so t = -5.84ln(-0.0141) = 5.8 hours. Hmmm. Let's try
> 20'... 2.92 hours, so t = 2.9 hours... Still not very exciting. Let's try a
> fan coil unit (overkill), e. g. the $139 all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct
> heat exchanger made by Magicaire, attached to the $318 4C860 Grainger fan
> which moves 1840 cfm at 0.125" H20 of static pressure, and has an upper temp
> limit of 311 F. This duct heat exchanger can transfer 45K Btu/hour between
> 125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop, ie
> 789 Btu/hr-F. So now we have RC = 292/789 = 22 minutes and t = -22ln(0.0141)
> = 22 minutes. But at that rate, we will run out of closet heat fast. We don't
> need that much not water, on the average. So maybe we just need a bigger
> tank, and, say 20' of fin-tube... or your plastic pipe setup with a small
> circulator pump. But there's another bottleneck there, getting the heat
> from the air into the drums. It helps if the drums are on top... 
> 
> >maybe in a water-water heat exchanger the plastic tubing might be a good,
> >cheap alternative.  I agree that evaporation may occur where the tubing
> >enters and exits the barrel, but I imagine that some type of gasket or
> >pressure-type fitting could be made to minimize the water loss. 
> 
> Perhaps it's really just a matter of taste... Some fin-tube pipe with a
> conventional water heater upstairs appeals to me...

I agree.  I'll have to think about his a bit.
> 
> Or you could try making something attached to the north wall of the sunspace
> with a single large piece of EPDM rubber, a bladder, folded at the bottom,
> with silicone caulk and a 2x4 sandwich to seal the side edges and a piece of
> dark painted sheet metal to keep it from bellying out too much to the south.
> Sven Tjernagel has site-built about 700 large collectors like this over the
> last 20 years for commercial uses, for hotels and car washes, each being up
> to 10' tall x 50' long, with a materials cost of about $1/ft^2...
> 
I haven't heard of this before.  So how does the water move through this
device?  Does he just let cold water  flow into one end, and run out the
other end after absorbing heat for 50 feet?

Dan

> Nick


From pdol3197@aol.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:08 EDT 1996
Article: 860 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!sun4nl!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: pdol3197@aol.com (PDol3197)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Builderguide energy software
Date: 28 May 1996 22:32:55 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4ogd0n$9cr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: pdol3197@aol.com (PDol3197)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Is anyone aware of the status of Soleaquis' (sp?) Builderguide energy
analysis software? I downloaded the v.2 demo last year and am interested
in obtaining a licensed copy.  PSIC bundles v.1 with its passive solar
guidelines, but have never updated to the windows version.  

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Also, has someone been archiving this newsgroup since it's inception last
year?

Cheers,

Pat Dolan


From jay@ftp.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:09 EDT 1996
Article: 861 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!bofh.dot!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!lard.ftp.com!seashore.ftp.com!jay
From: jay@news.ftp.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:05:08
Organization: FTP Software, North Andover, Massachusetts
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <960531180508@seashore.ftp.com>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com>
Reply-To: jay@ftp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: seashore.ftp.com
NNTP-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15505 alt.solar.thermal:861 sci.energy:50518



In article <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com> "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> writes:
>I made what looked like a Sterling engine to move air through a solar panel. The
>engine was composed of 2 bellows connected to a crank shaft at 90deg. The cold air
>(if I remember right) was forced into the collector through one way flapper valves.
>The heated air was admitted into and released from the power bellows by a sliding
>valve mechanism. These valves were, in the model ,made from scrap fiberglass PC 
>board material. The slider would cover and uncover holes on the PC board.
>
>The whole system had very low friction and needed to do very little work, except
>to move the air, i.e. no output from the crankshaft. It ran for several years in my 
>living room window. I did have to give it a shove every day to start it as it 
>was not self starting.
>
>I haven't seen anything similar described any where except for the high speed power
>generating Sterlings. The little demo was successful probably because it was slow 
>and used very low pressures.
>
>What do you think. Could this be used as a self powered solar air mover? Can a fan
>be used on the crankshaft for moving air in adjacent collectors?
---------------------------------------------
If you haven't already patented  :-)  this, could you provide an ASCII
drawing and rough dimensions?   Model Engineer magazine (a British mag)
had a article last October on a small stirling engine which could be
held in your hand...ran from sunlight on a windowsill or could run
sitting on top of a hot mug of coffee....
TIA
Jay

PS..anybody know about the small Stirling engine fans which are still
being manufactured in Pakistan; if they are imported into the USA?
These shouldn't cost very much and might be perfect for this
type of application (couple four together to make a self-starting fan).
  



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:09 EDT 1996
Article: 862 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 31 May 1996 17:59:33 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4onq45$jq7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-3105961354310001@cowbell.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15506 sci.energy:50519 alt.solar.thermal:862 alt.architecture.alternative:7118

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> >> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>> >> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> 
>> >...why not put the water heater inside the solar closet instead of
>> >upstairs?  The heater is now in the 130 F room, so you don't need to
>> >circulate water through it in order to keep it warm.
>> 
>> Right, but that way, the water needs to be heated on the way in, in a
>> single pass. After it's in the water heater, it won't gain much heat.
>
>That's true.  With the insulation on the heater, it will gain heat from
>the room very slowly, but if I have the water heater temperature set at
>129 F, the heating elements should never have to turn on to maintain that
>temperature after it reaches 129 F.  How much energy does a typical hot
>water heater use just to keep the water hot until we are ready to use it
>vs heating the incoming cold water?

Perhaps you could figure that out, Dan. Suppose the water heater has 2" of
fiberglass around it (~R8), and it's 6' tall and 2' diameter, containing
130 F water, sitting in a 70 F room, and you use 50K Btu of hot water
per day at 110 F, heated from 60 F.

>Also, the conventional heater outside the solar closet will heat the air
>in the house.  In the winter, this wouldn't be a problem, but this would
>be a liability in the summer, especially in warmer areas like the south.
>I'm not sure how significant these factors would be, but it would be
>interesting to find out.

Agreed :-)

>>>100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water pipe from Home
>>>Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x >100 x 12
>>>= 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2. How does this compare with the fin tube that you
>>>suggested?
>> 
>>10' of fin-tube pipe gains about 50 Btu/hr per degree of air-water
>>temperature difference, and your pipe with 1/8" walls (?) might have
>>a U-value of 10, with a water-pipe-water interface, so it might gain
>>229 Btu/hr-F. If the incoming water only passes through it once at,
>>say 3 gpm, and the pipe has a volume of 1/2 gallon, the water will
>>only be in the pipe for about (1/2)/3 = 1/6 min or 1/360 hour, so if
>>it starts out at 60 F, say, it will gain at most 1/360(130-60)x229
>>= 44 Btu, which will heat that 4 pounds of water to 70 F, on the way
>>into the water heater.
 
>Actually, the 100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter tubing would have a
>volume of 2 gallons...

I goofed. Pi((3/4)/2)^2/144x100 = 0.307 ft^3, ie 2.4 gallons... 

>so the water would be in the tube for 2/3 min or 2/180 hour

2.4/3 = 0.79 min or 0.013 hr...

>with a gain of 2/180 (130-60) x 229 = 178 Btu.

gaining at most 0.013 x (130-60) x 229 = 212 Btu...
(the water heats up a bit as it travels through the heat exchanger, so
the warmer water at the end doesn't see as big a temperature difference.)

>Unfortunately, those 178 Btu's now have to heat 16 pounds of water, so
>that doesn't really change anything does it?

I guess not, in the sense of the 70 F water going into the water heater.

>It looks like I'd have to increase the length of the pipe in order to
>get any greater increase in water temperature.  So, if I put in 500 feet
>of tubing, the water would be in the pipe 5 times longer, and I'd have 10
>gallons or 80 lb of water. So I'd gain at most, 10/180 (130-60) x (229 x
>5) = 4452 Btu.  Is that correct?

Not quite, altho it goes in that direction. The first 100' of pipe gets us to
70 F, at most, but the water entering the second 100' of pipe is at 70 F, not
60 F, so the temp difference is 130-70, not 130-60, in that pipe, so it gains
less heat in the second 100', and so on. This is a heat exchanger problem with
a solution with an exponential in it, and you can find the solution on page
3.4 of the 1993 American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air
Conditioning Engineer's Handbook of Fundamentals... 

Don't forget that you have to transfer the heat into the drums that 
contain the pipe...

>How about using two tanks, the first being the above mention galvinized
>tank and the second being a conventional hot water heater?  It's not quite
>as interesting as a fin tube, but it would give you plenty of hot water
>during sunny days, and it would cost you less than a conventional heater
>after those 5 cloudy days.  You'd still have your incoming cold water
>preheated to 80 F before entering the conventional heater.  

Sounds a little better...

>> Perhaps it's really just a matter of taste... Some fin-tube pipe with a
>> conventional water heater upstairs appeals to me...
>
>I agree.  I'll have to think about his a bit.
>> 
>> Or you could try making something attached to the north wall of the sunspace
>> with a single large piece of EPDM rubber, a bladder, folded at the bottom,
>> with silicone caulk and a 2x4 sandwich to seal the side edges and a piece of
>> dark painted sheet metal to keep it from bellying out too much to the south.
>> Sven Tjernagel has site-built about 700 large collectors like this over the
>> last 20 years for commercial uses, for hotels and car washes, each being up
>> to 10' tall x 50' long, with a materials cost of about $1/ft^2...
>> 
>I haven't heard of this before.  So how does the water move through this
>device?  Does he just let cold water  flow into one end, and run out the
>other end after absorbing heat for 50 feet?

Sven used to run a length of PVC pipe with some holes in it along the top
edge, and let the water trickle down inside the rubber bladder and collect
the water at the bottom edge, but that way, there can be hot spots, and his
slope was limited to about 45 degrees... He didn't use any sheet metal on
the front, and his EPDM rubber wore out and had to be replaced after about
7 years. I think it's probably better to use some sheet metal on the front,
and fill the bladder solid with a thin sheet of water, to make the EPDM
last forever and allow a more vertical collector orientation to maximize
winter gain. 

Nick



From daniel@laser.net Wed Jun  5 16:20:10 EDT 1996
Article: 863 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!ffx40.laser.net!user
From: daniel@laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: suggestions for dream house design
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:10:51 -0400
Organization: Daystar Energy Service
Lines: 263
Message-ID: <daniel-3105961910510001@ffx40.laser.net>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4obsb7$hrl@news.nznet.gen.nz> <daniel-2805962059270001@ffx51.laser.net> <4oh8t3$jgq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx40.laser.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15507 sci.energy:50521 alt.solar.thermal:863

In article <4oh8t3$jgq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

snip
> 
> Why mess with movable insulation if you have a door in an insulated wall?
> My impression is that R4 movable insulation costs about $5/ft^2, plus
> installation. Does anyone have better numbers?

How well insulated are the walls? or the door?  How about the unwanted
summer heat in the glazed sun space? A 3x4 Window Quilt at R5 will cost
$12/ft installed but also cuts up to 86% of heat gain in the summer.
There's a math exersise for you. Since they seal on all four sides of the
window frame with an unperforated sheet of mylar sandwiched between, they
also do an excellent job of stopping infiltration leaks.
  
> >> >> After seeing all the posts concerning solar rooms and closets I'm now
> >> >> wondering if I could get by without backup heat and maybe even eliminate
> >> >> the propane water heater. 

snip

> >> >>I still haven't fully grasp the solar closet concept however.
> >
> >I'm not sure that anyone but Nick has yet.
> 
> Ask me a question, if you like. Quite a few others understand this now,
> including the technical review committee of the World Renewable Energy
> Congress to be held in Denver from June 16-21. 
> 
> >Ask for some real world data from any solar closets actually in existance.
 
charts and other verbage snipped

> >> >How much insulation is required
> >> >to keep them at the supposed design temperature of 130 F?  
> >
> >A better question may be can you actually achieve a temperature above 90 F
> >with this set up?
> 
> That's a good question. You need to be careful about air leaks and thermal
> bridges. High temps are not hard to come by. We saw 154 F in our sunspace
> last winter. Think about stagnated solar collectors. That's what a solar
> closet is, with some thermal mass inside, insulated at night... How hot will
> your rooftop solar collector get with just one layer of R1 glazing, if it's
> 30 F outside, and it's getting 300 Btu/hr of sun, and there's no water flow,
> and there's noplace else for the heat to go except back out thru the glazing?
> Ohm's law for heatflow, aka Newton's law of cooling, says delta T = U x R,
> ie T = 30 F + 300 Btu/hr x R1 = 330 F. Would you disagree with that, Dan?

Trust me here Nick, I have a sound working knowledge of the basics. My
point to you, which is the same point that I tried to make over a year ago
(and a few times since) is simply that you are not getting this heat into
the storage medium. Look at your own one day trial. Count your BTUs. Once
the house is up to a comfortable level (70-80F ?), VERY LITTLE of the
additional heat gets into storage.  Your 120-154F is wasted. Your storage
temp went from 73.3 to a low of 71.0 to a high of 76.8, while your living
area swung from 59.2 to 83.1. My wife would not be happy in this house.
The same square footage of flat plate collector connected to a real
storage tank would be well over 100F  on this same day. Connect that to a
real distribution system and the house would not have a 23 degree swing.
Yes, it's simple, yes, it's cheap, but no, it wont perform the way you are
expecting us to believe that it will. You will not get 120F into storage
when ambient temps are 40 or below. I doubt that you hit 95F without 5
days of 60F plus ambient. Am I wrong?

Its a good thing that you cant achieve those temps, too, because 120F in a
plastic drum is stupid. But, again, this is old territory.

snip 
> >Just an aside, I've seen a lot of crap posted lately about roof panels.
>
> Me too. For instance, some people say they are economical.
> 
> >For the record, in 6 years of installing, maintaining, removing and
> >reinstalling roof panels for new shingles, I have never once, NEVER, been
> >called back for a roof leak. I have 15 year old installations that are
> >just as leak proof as the day they went in.
> 
> I'm sure you do better work than many in this field, Dan. Back in February,
> Pat Hennin from Shelter Institute told me that for a few years, they were
> getting phone calls _every day_ from people who wanted their rooftop panels
> removed, for various reasons: water leaks, roof leaks, complicated systems
> that had stopped working, with nobody around who knew how to fix them,
> aesthetics, selling the house, broken glass, etc. That isn't to say this
> can't be done right, just that often, it isn't.

He's right. I see it all the time. And it all stems from a time when solar
customers were promised the world, and the world was never delivered.
Whether these promises were made by charlatans or well intentioned
contractors, engineers or architects that didn't know or didn't think
things all the way thru doesn't matter. What matters is disappointed
customers who now find it easy to believe the electric companies and the
plumbers who dont understand a simple solar dhw when they say "these
things dont work." 

By the way, three things make for a roof leak on a solar installation.
One, panels installed flat on the roof with little or no space between
roof and panel collecting debris and causing water damming. Two, roofers
who dont know the temps achievable and seal pipe penetrations with
roofer's tar or other low temp sealants, only to have the sealant melt
away when the system gets hot. And three, panels installed as a part of
the roof structure. In other words panels that form a portion of the
waterproof skin of the building. Different materials joined together and
required to heat up and cool down will move at different rates and in
different directions, causing leaks and infiltration. Obviously, inferior
materials (like wood which will get wet and rot with condensation even if
you can keep the leaks out, or plastic which deforms in heat and becomes
weak and brittle in sun light) will exacerbate this condition.


> >Yes, they are expensive, and may not pay back for 7 to 10 years.
> 
> Let's see... Here's one scenario: you buy one or two new 4 x 8 rooftop
> solar water heating panels for $30/ft^2 (?), and pay someone $200 (?) to
> install them on the roof with some $50 mounting brackets, and run 40 feet
> of $1/foot insulated pipe down to the basement, where there are two $50
> pumps and a $50 tank and a $50 heat exhanger and a $150 differential
> thermostat and miscellaneous plumbing to connect all this to an existing
> water heater, and the 50 Watt pumps run 1,500 hours a year, ie 1500 kWh/year,
> another $15 worth of electricity, and the whole system lasts forever...
> requiring no mantenance, and collects 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun every day,
> ie 23 million Btu/year, equivalent to 180 gallons of oil/year, say $180's
> worth? So... We've invested $2560 in this system, to save $165/year, net,
> so the simple payback is 15.5 years. Not bad, but it seems to me that
> there are better places to invest money, and I'm not sure about all these
> costs and assumptions. Perhaps you have more accurate numbers.

OK, you're making me do math and that pisses me off. Whoa! $200 to carry
two panels on your roof? Not me buddy. A $50 tank? I'll buy all you can
deliver. All new materials might cost more like $3000-$3500 installed. 
Oops, I'm going the wrong way.  $2500 is reasonable if we're not buying
new panels.

No maintenance is a ridiculous assumption. Figure $125 every 4 years for
glycol change = $31.25 per year. Pumps, controls, sensors etc go bad. I
offer a warranty (even on 15 and 20 year old systems) that covers
everything except glycol and the plumbing parts that works out to about
$100 per year. By the way, if it were not a money maker, I'd raise the
cost. It makes my customers happy, so I offer it. This relates to a pump
or control replacement every 2.5 years, which will not happen.

So we have $3500 plus $100 per year for repair plus $31 per year for
maintenance plus $15 per year for operating costs = $4960 for 10 years.
 
Alright, 23 million Btu/year, equivalent to 180 gallons of oil/year. Hold
the phone, Nick. Look at your post. You are asking me to justify the cost
of purchase, installation, maintenance, repair and operating costs of
hardware designed to process and store these BTUs in a usable form.
Compared to the cost of delivering #2 heating oil to your door ("That's
right Buddy, dump it right here on the ground, I'll scoop it up later").
What about the hardware to process and store the oil? Maybe it was a gift
>from  God ("We just woke up this morning and... PRAISE THE LORD, there she
sat"). Tanks, burners, filters, delivery piping, vents, flues, etc. OK,
you've already got those things for your space heating equipment. What
does an indirect fired tank cost installed with all it's plumbing, pumps,
controls, etc.? $1500? $2000? A stand alone oil fired water heater? I
don't know.  But, you say, I use my space heat boiler as an instantaneous
dhw supply, so it's free. Bullshit. You have to oversize this boiler to
provide both space heat and dhw at the same time, which means higher
initial cost, faster wear and tear on the burner, boiler, flues, etc., in
addition to lower efficiency of BTU capture when it's only being used for
one or the other function, more losses into the house in the summer which
you now pay Three-Mile-Island to ac back out of the house, etc. Lets guess
$1500 installation for an 80% efficient burner, fair? But we have to get
that oil into heat and that heat into the water. 180 gallons at .8 /gallon
efficiency = 225 gallons or dollars per year. Plus $100 per year
maintenance and repair (burner jets and filters need to be replaced,
ignition systems checked, flues inspected, etc).

So, $1500 plus $100 per year for maintenance and repair plus $225 per year
operating costs = $4750 for ten years. If it's an indirect fired system,
add $7.50 per year operating costs for the same bronze pump that's in the
solar tank. Provided nothing goes wrong with the burner, oil tank, flue,
circulator or control system ( remember, I warrantied the solar).

But what if you're like most of us who pay the electric company to burn
the oil, change that into electricity and pipe that electricity into the
water tank? Lets buy the cheapest 30 gal, R7 (the solar tank is R19...
come to think of it, it's also got an internal, removeable heat exchanger
which means 1 cast iron pump which means only $7.5 per year opearating
costs -but I wont quibble), 5 Year warranty tank that we can find, $150.
Fair? Plus installation at $250. And one thermostat or element change in
ten years at $100. Assuming 100% efficiency at your electric element; one
kwH = 3413 BTU so 23 mill BTU = 6739 kwH. Multiplied by $.10 /kwH (your
figure) = $673.9 per year.

So, $400 tank plus $100 repair and maintenance, and $674 per year
operating costs = $7240. Even at $.07/kwH, $472 per year operating costs =
$5220. Now lets say you're on time of day use at $.15/kwH...

Let's review, shall we?

Ten years of oil - $4750... $4825 if we add a circulator...provided no
complications and ignoring unwanted summer heat gain because ac costs in
this country are negligible.

Ten years of electric - $5220 at $.07/kwH...$7240 at $.10/kwH.

Ten years of solar - $4960...$4885 if we use a single pump system.

You do the numbers on the second ten years when all three storage tanks
need replacement. I'll give you a hint, I want $1000 to replace your solar
tank. You've agreed that the panels should last 50 years.

As I tried to indicate in the discussion of oil burners, the realities
make the numbers real muddy, you're milage may vary. The solar with an
internal element in the upper third of the tank can be a stand alone
system, or we can pipe it into an existing oil burner for back up, or
both. The end result is that a properly sized solar dhw will pay back most
users in about 7 years. Bottled gas (propane) will cost similar to
electricity. Natural gas we dont wish to discuss. Just kidding, compared
to gas, solar will pay back in about 10 years.
 
> >But quality panels, made of extruded aluminum and good grade copper with
> >glass glazings should last at least five times that, maybe much more.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> >Tell me they're not worth the cost after 50 years of replacing your
> >polyethelene sheets every 2 or 3 years.
> 
> For some people who don't have much money, poly film, or clearer long-life
> Mylar film is a good way to go. Recycling it every 3 years takes about an
> hour, if you use the right hardware, ie 16 hours over 50 years. Greenhouse
> UV poly film costs 5 cents/ft^2, and it's guaranteed for 3 years. With a
> piece of shadecloth over it in the summer, it should last longer.
> 
> But there are more than two choices. Many people might prefer polycarbonate
> plastic or glass to polyethylene sunspace glazing, with some sort of bare
> water heating panels, eg Big Fins, inside the sunspace, with no pumps or
> heat exchangers, with warm water naturally rising up to a conventional water
> heater upstairs that seldom turns on, and the "waste heat" heating the house.
> If you can read a book in your sunspace on a sunny winter afternoon, the
> economics change...

There you go again. The system you describe is a pipe dream. How many
square feet of Big Fins do you need to achieve only the part about "a
conventional water heater upstairs that seldom turns on?" I guarantee that
it's a great deal more than most readers are visualizing. By the way, it's
the best idea you've had yet for capturing some of your sunspace's massive
losses. After you've figured all the pipe, fittings, hangers, Big Fins,
glazings and replacement glazings, I'd bet that I can match or beat your
performance with a similar dollar outlay in commercial panels.

Again, I am not saying that it wont work. But it will not work as well as
you lead the reader to believe.

Shoddy workmanship, second rate materials, half-baked logic and the
frustration caused by spending time, energy and money on items that dont
live up to expectation are exactly the cause of the sad state of the solar
industry today. 

Nick, you hold a peculiar responsibility here. The forcefulness of the way
you post your arguments, the overwhelming and mind numbing use of
mathematics and formulas (if you can't dazzle them with brillance...), and
the shear proliferation of your posts make some think that you know what
you are saying. To say nothing about your self appointed importance, 
"designer of low-cost, high-performance solar houses." If you propagate a
theory as fact and it doesn't quite pan out, or overlook a basic componet,
it becomes a detriment to all of us.

Dan


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:10 EDT 1996
Article: 864 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: suggestions for dream house design
Date: 1 Jun 1996 05:22:34 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 493
Message-ID: <4op24q$lo3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <daniel-2805962059270001@ffx51.laser.net> <4oh8t3$jgq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <daniel-3105961910510001@ffx40.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15514 sci.energy:50534 alt.solar.thermal:864 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7148

<daniel@laser.net> wrote:/>(Nick Pine) wrote:

Good morning Dan...

>> Why mess with movable insulation if you have a door in an insulated wall?
 
>How well insulated are the walls? or the door?

I don't know... Hmmm. Suppose you had a big sunspace with R1 glazing, say
a 12 wide x 16' tall sunspace, 8' wide at the base, with an R30 house wall
behind it and an R8 door in the wall. Does it make sense to add $12/ft^2
(installed price) R5 Window Quilts to the $1/ft^2 (material price) glazing?
Or just close the door or close the damper. I guess it depends on whether
you plan to heat and use the sunspace often at night. I could see snuggling
under a blanket for a few minutes after dinner, and looking up at the stars
in a cold sunspace at night, or sleeping out there in a sleeping bag, once
in a winter while, with the door to the house closed...

>How about the unwanted summer heat in the glazed sun space?

How about an overhang, some greenhouse shadecloth, runner beans, grapes,
trumpet vines, clematis, etc, and some small screened vent doors that are
open all summer?

>A 3x4 Window Quilt at R5 will cost
>$12/ft installed but also cuts up to 86% of heat gain in the summer.

It's nice to have better numbers for this. I was going by Shelter Institute's
price of $3-5/ft^2, just for the material, with free homeowner labor. A 15
cent/ft^2 piece of 80% absorbing greenhouse shadecloth hung outside the
glazing will reduce summer sun input by 80%, and it only needs to be moved 
twice a year, and it makes the glazing last longer, if plastic... I wonder
what it means, exactly, to say that Window Quilt at $12/ft^2, installed,
"cuts 86% of heat gain"? 

>There's a math exersise for you.

Where's the math exercise? Why is it for me? Perhaps this is one for you.

>Since they seal on all four sides of the window frame with an unperforated
>sheet of mylar sandwiched between, they also do an excellent job of stopping
>infiltration leaks.

Sounds good. I've often wondered whether these numbers like "R5" include
the effects of air leaks around the edges of the Window Quilt. Do they?
Was that R5 as measured or R5 bulk insulating material? If Window Quilts are
movable (and moved, with daily manual labor), it seems to me there must be
some tiny gap around the edge, eg 1/64"? (I'm thinking of Will's "tracked
and easily movable window insulation here, but maybe that doesn't apply.)
I wonder what a gap like would do to an R5 insulator in front of a 3x4 R2
window on a 30 F day? Let's see... If the room were 70 F and the Quilt were
R5, and it worked perfectly, we'd have (70-30)12 ft^2/(R5+R2) = 68.6 Btu/hr
of heat flowing thru the window. If the gap were like a little chimney,
allowing (1/64")/12x3'(16.6)sqrt(4(70-30)) = 0.05 cfm of 70 F air to flow
up between the Quilt and the window, that would only add another 0.05(70-30)
= 2 Btu/hr to the heat loss, and a little condensation, perhaps. So...
I don't know... I guess they wouldn't sell these things if condensation
were much of a problem, but then condensation is not normally a problem
on windows without Window Quilts. So... I dunno. 

>> >...can you actually achieve a temperature above 90 F with this set up?
 
>>That's a good question. You need to be careful about air leaks and thermal
>>bridges. High temps are not hard to come by. We saw 154 F in our sunspace
>>last winter. Think about stagnated solar collectors. That's what a solar
>>closet is, with some thermal mass inside, insulated at night... How hot will
>>your rooftop solar collector get with just one layer of R1 glazing, if it's
>>30 F outside, and it's getting 300 Btu/hr of sun, and there's no water flow,
>>and there's noplace else for the heat to go except back out thru the glazing?
>>Ohm's law for heatflow, aka Newton's law of cooling, says delta T = U x R,
>>ie T = 30 F + 300 Btu/hr x R1 = 330 F. Would you disagree with that, Dan?
 
>Trust me here Nick, I have a sound working knowledge of the basics.

OK... Would you disagree with the line above? I'm sure you're familiar
with the solar collector stagnation problem. This is a more controlled
version of that. I am not sure that you have a sound working knowledge
of "the basics." Or even that we are talking about the same "basics."
I think of "Ohm's law for heatflow" as basic, and I don't know if you are
familiar with that or not. Norman Saunders, PE, wrote a book called
_Solar Basics_ in 1974 (4th edition :-) It's not a simple book. 

>My point to you, which is the same point that I tried to make over a year ago
>(and a few times since) is simply that you are not getting this heat into
>the storage medium. Look at your own one day trial. Count your BTUs.

We did that once... About 55% of the sun that fell on the closet glazing 
ended up in the water storage. I don't recall the details now, but the
water was not very warm at the time, and the day was not very cold. If you
look in Steve Baer's _Sunspots_ book, on pages 114-116, you will see a
bunch of experiments he did with a rock storage/convective air loop system,
using a similar air-type collector, with similar efficiencies. You can
see similar efficiencies in Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of
Thermal Processes_ and Andy Zaugg's air heater book.

>Once the house is up to a comfortable level (70-80F ?), VERY LITTLE of the
>additional heat gets into storage.

Why do you say that, exactly? There's a graph of some data we measured in
our Congress paper that shows almost all of the additional solar heat
getting in to the water store on a sunny day, with a 70 F room temp...

>Your 120-154F is wasted.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Hot air is hot air, and it isn't too hard
to predict the response of a cooler object sitting in hot air, these days. 
It gets warmer. Take a look at Figure 1 on page 22.1 of the 1993 ASHRAE
Handbook of Fundamentals.

>Your storage temp went from 73.3 to a low of 71.0 to a high of 76.8,
>while your living area swung from 59.2 to 83.1. My wife would not be
>happy in this house.

Neither would most people, I suppose. The data I posted was taken last
November 4, on the very first morning we had our box set up on the roof,
as soon as we had things plugged together and working, and it's not typical
of what you would see in a real house. We have piles and piles of data,
but little of it is typical of what you would see in a house, because we
were experimenting, and because of my carpentry talents, which resulted in
a box with R5 walls :-) 

>The same square footage of flat plate collector connected to a real
>storage tank would be well over 100F  on this same day. Connect that to a
>real distribution system and the house would not have a 23 degree swing.

I think we are comparing expensive apples and inexpensive oranges here, and
I'm not sure what you mean by what you say above (wouldn't that depend on
the size of the tank, etc, etc?), and you really do seem to like rooftop
collectors, perhaps because you sell them. I don't sell anything... I do
try to give away money sometimes, without much success :-)

>Yes, it's simple, yes, it's cheap, but no, it wont perform the way you are
>expecting us to believe that it will. You will not get 120F into storage
>when ambient temps are 40 or below.

I wonder why you say that? We could do a few numbers here, but that just
seems to irritate you, Dan. You just say "it won't work." I say it will.
I have numbers. You have chutzpah. Neither of us has real data for this.

>I doubt that you hit 95F without 5 days of 60F plus ambient. Am I wrong?

I don't recall. But that could well be true of our little 2'x4'x8' test box.
Recall the R5 walls...

>Its a good thing that you cant achieve those temps, too, because 120F in a
>plastic drum is stupid. But, again, this is old territory.

You know, I've never tried filling a 55 gallon drum with 120 F water. Sounds
like an interesting but tedious experiment, and a waste of hot water, but
learning is expensive, no? Perhaps I'll use Ursinus College water. Do you
have a plastic 55 gallon drum? I tried filling a 2 liter plastic soda bottle
with 130 F water, and that seemed fine. I tried filling the bottle with
boiling water, and it shrank to 1 liter... So, who knows? Do plastic drums
in Utah warehouses often melt? It seems to me there would be no structural
problem with 130 F water in unpressurized plastic drums, stacked 2-high, and
you think "it's stupid." There's not much point in our arguing here like
the old Greek scientists who debated about and discussed nature without ever
observing it and decided, for example, that porcupines pull out their spines
and throw them at their animal enemies as a defense. We should just try this,
or look up some specs, or something.

>> >Just an aside, I've seen a lot of crap posted lately about roof panels.

>> Me too. For instance, some people say they are economical.

>> I'm sure you do better work than many in this field, Dan. Back in February,
>> Pat Hennin from Shelter Institute told me that for a few years, they were
>> getting phone calls _every day_ from people who wanted their rooftop panels
>> removed, for various reasons: water leaks, roof leaks, complicated systems
>> that had stopped working, with nobody around who knew how to fix them,
>> aesthetics, selling the house, broken glass, etc. That isn't to say this
>> can't be done right, just that often, it isn't.

>He's right. I see it all the time. And it all stems from a time when solar
>customers were promised the world, and the world was never delivered.

A sad time, that.

>By the way, three things make for a roof leak on a solar installation.
>One, panels installed flat on the roof with little or no space between
>roof and panel collecting debris and causing water damming.

That's too bad, because the collectors might be a bit warmer underneath
without all the cold wind whistling under their backsides, and carrying
off that heat to the outdoors. Sunspaces come to mind :-)

>Two, roofers who dont know the temps achievable and seal pipe penetrations
>with roofer's tar or other low temp sealants, only to have the sealant melt
>away when the system gets hot.

I can imagine that happening.

>And three, panels installed as a part of the roof structure. In other words
>panels that form a portion of the waterproof skin of the building.

Ah, you are talking about my solar attic, perhaps, covered with 600 ft^2
of $1/ft^2 non-leaky (so far) single layer corrugated polycarbonate plastic?

>Different materials joined together and required to heat up and cool down
>will move at different rates and in different directions,

Yes.

>causing leaks and infiltration.

Not necessarily. That depends on the design.

>Obviously, inferior materials (like wood which will get wet and rot with
>condensation even if you can keep the leaks out, or plastic which deforms
>in heat and becomes weak and brittle in sun light) will exacerbate this
>condition.

That may not matter. When you step into a car, do the tires collapse?

>> >Yes, they are expensive, and may not pay back for 7 to 10 years.
 
>> Let's see... Here's one scenario: you buy one or two new 4 x 8 rooftop
>> solar water heating panels for $30/ft^2 (?), and pay someone $200 (?) to
>> install them on the roof... and collect 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun every day,
>> ie 23 million Btu/year, equivalent to 180 gallons of oil/year, say $180's
>> worth? So... We've invested $2560 in this system, to save $165/year, net,
>> so the simple payback is 15.5 years. Not bad, but it seems to me that
>> there are better places to invest money, and I'm not sure about all these
>> costs and assumptions. Perhaps you have more accurate numbers.

>OK, you're making me do math and that pisses me off.

So I notice :-) Perhaps you also think I'm attacking your livelihood.

>Whoa! $200 to carry two panels on your roof? Not me buddy. A $50 tank?
>I'll buy all you can deliver.

I was trying to be generous in this exercise.
To make rooftop panels look good, economically.

>All new materials might cost more like $3000-$3500 installed. 
>Oops, I'm going the wrong way.  $2500 is reasonable if we're not buying
>new panels.

What do we do when we run out of old panels?

>No maintenance is a ridiculous assumption. Figure $125 every 4 years for
>glycol change = $31.25 per year. Pumps, controls, sensors etc go bad. I
>offer a warranty (even on 15 and 20 year old systems) that covers
>everything except glycol and the plumbing parts that works out to about
>$100 per year. By the way, if it were not a money maker, I'd raise the
>cost. It makes my customers happy, so I offer it. This relates to a pump
>or control replacement every 2.5 years, which will not happen.
 
OK.

>So we have $3500 plus $100 per year for repair plus $31 per year for
>maintenance plus $15 per year for operating costs = $4960 for 10 years.
  
OK.

>Alright, 23 million Btu/year, equivalent to 180 gallons of oil/year. Hold
>the phone, Nick. Look at your post. You are asking me to justify the cost
>of purchase, installation, maintenance, repair and operating costs of
>hardware designed to process and store these BTUs in a usable form.

I don't think I asked you to do that.

>Compared to the cost of delivering #2 heating oil to your door ("That's
>right Buddy, dump it right here on the ground, I'll scoop it up later").

I don't think I asked you to do that either.

>What about the hardware to process and store the oil? Maybe it was a gift
>from God ("We just woke up this morning and... PRAISE THE LORD, there she
>sat").

This is an interesting oil delivery system. It might work in Texas...

>Tanks, burners, filters, delivery piping, vents, flues, etc. OK,
>you've already got those things for your space heating equipment.

Maybe, maybe not.

>What does an indirect fired tank cost installed with all it's plumbing, pumps,
>controls, etc.? $1500? $2000? A stand alone oil fired water heater? I
>don't know.  But, you say, I use my space heat boiler as an instantaneous
>dhw supply, so it's free.

I said that?

>Bullshit. You have to oversize this boiler to provide both
>space heat and dhw at the same time, which means higher
>initial cost, faster wear and tear on the burner, boiler, flues, etc., in
>addition to lower efficiency of BTU capture when it's only being used for
>one or the other function, more losses into the house in the summer which
>you now pay Three-Mile-Island to ac back out of the house, etc. Lets guess
>$1500 installation for an 80% efficient burner, fair?

Um, that's fine with me. Whatever you say, Dan.

>But we have to get
>that oil into heat and that heat into the water. 180 gallons at .8 /gallon
>efficiency = 225 gallons or dollars per year. Plus $100 per year
>maintenance and repair (burner jets and filters need to be replaced,
>ignition systems checked, flues inspected, etc).
 
Efficiency can be a bit higher these days, eg with an Intelligen system,
making electricity too, and only sending 7% of the oil's heat up the chimney.  

>So, $1500 plus $100 per year for maintenance and repair plus $225 per year
>operating costs = $4750 for ten years. If it's an indirect fired system,
>add $7.50 per year operating costs for the same bronze pump that's in the
>solar tank. Provided nothing goes wrong with the burner, oil tank, flue,
>circulator or control system ( remember, I warrantied the solar).

A little fin-tube pipe in a solar closet seems attractive here.

>But what if you're like most of us who pay the electric company to burn
>the oil, change that into electricity and pipe that electricity into the
>water tank? Lets buy the cheapest 30 gal, R7 (the solar tank is R19...
>come to think of it, it's also got an internal, removeable heat exchanger
>which means 1 cast iron pump which means only $7.5 per year opearating
>costs -but I wont quibble), 5 Year warranty tank that we can find, $150.
>Fair? Plus installation at $250. And one thermostat or element change in
>ten years at $100. Assuming 100% efficiency at your electric element; one
>kwH = 3413 BTU so 23 mill BTU = 6739 kwH. Multiplied by $.10 /kwH (your
>figure) = $673.9 per year.

OK... Does this trail have a map? :-)

>So, $400 tank plus $100 repair and maintenance, and $674 per year
>operating costs = $7240. Even at $.07/kwH, $472 per year operating costs =
>$5220. Now lets say you're on time of day use at $.15/kwH...
 
>Let's review, shall we?

OK... I guess we are sufficiently confused.

>Ten years of oil - $4750... $4825 if we add a circulator...provided no
>complications and ignoring unwanted summer heat gain because ac costs in
>this country are negligible.
 
>Ten years of electric - $5220 at $.07/kwH...$7240 at $.10/kwH.
 
>Ten years of solar - $4960...$4885 if we use a single pump system.
 
>You do the numbers on the second ten years when all three storage tanks
>need replacement. I'll give you a hint, I want $1000 to replace your solar
>tank. You've agreed that the panels should last 50 years.

I guess I did. Do I have to do the numbers?
 
>As I tried to indicate in the discussion of oil burners, the realities
>make the numbers real muddy, you're milage may vary. The solar with an
>internal element in the upper third of the tank can be a stand alone
>system, or we can pipe it into an existing oil burner for back up, or
>both. The end result is that a properly sized solar dhw will pay back most
>users in about 7 years. Bottled gas (propane) will cost similar to
>electricity. Natural gas we dont wish to discuss. Just kidding, compared
>to gas, solar will pay back in about 10 years.

OkOkOk. I believe you. But wouldn't it be nice if it paid back in 1-3 years,
and added some daytime floor space to your house, and gave you a place to
grow things and store your lawn mower? (I don't have a lawn mower.)

>> >But quality panels, made of extruded aluminum and good grade copper with
>> >glass glazings should last at least five times that, maybe much more.
 
>> Agreed.
 
>> >Tell me they're not worth the cost after 50 years of replacing your
>> >polyethelene sheets every 2 or 3 years.

Oops, I forgot to do that. They are not worth the cost after 50 years of
replacing polyethelene sheets every 2 or 3 years. There, I did exactly
what you wanted. I even mispelled polyethylene.

>>For some people who don't have much money, poly film, or clearer long-life
>>Mylar film is a good way to go. Recycling it every 3 years takes about an
>>hour, if you use the right hardware, ie 16 hours over 50 years. Greenhouse
>>UV poly film costs 5 cents/ft^2, and it's guaranteed for 3 years. With a
>>piece of shadecloth over it in the summer, it should last longer.
 
>>But there are more than two choices. Many people might prefer polycarbonate
>>plastic or glass to polyethylene sunspace glazing, with some sort of bare
>>water heating panels, eg Big Fins, inside the sunspace, with no pumps or
>>heat exchangers, with warm water naturally rising up to a conventional water
>>heater upstairs that seldom turns on, and the "waste heat" heating the house.
>>If you can read a book in your sunspace on a sunny winter afternoon, the
>>economics change...

>There you go again. The system you describe is a pipe dream.

No. I saw a system exactly like that near Princeton, NJ in 1980, and as
I recall, Big Fins were Zomeworks' most successful product... I think there
are lots of systems just like that out in the Real World (tm.)

>How many square feet of Big Fins do you need to achieve only the part about
>"a conventional water heater upstairs that seldom turns on?"

That depends on the hot water load, the climate, the sunspace glazing,
and what we mean by "seldom."

>I guarantee that it's a great deal more than most readers are visualizing.

The system I saw had 50-100 ft^2, about 6" under the sunspace glass, as
I recall, with 1-2" gaps between the fins to let the sun filter through.
It looked very nice, and worked very well. The homeowners were quite happy
with it. I remember being surprised that one could make hot water like that
with bare surfaces in a sunspace, but then I did the math, and it seemed
reasonable. Suppose you have 1 ft^2 of bare something (it might work better
with a little foamboard on the back, or something, but these were just bare
Big Fins, painted black). If the water temp is, say 100 F (picking a number
between 60 and 130), what would the solar collection efficiency be, in full
sun, in an 80 F sunspace? For still air, U is about 1.5 Btu/hr-F, and the
fin has two sides, so about 300 Btu/hr goes in to the water, and another
(100-80)2 ft^2x1.5 = 60 Btu/hr leaks out into the sunspace air, for a
collection efficiency of (300-60)/300 = 80%. Not bad, and the "waste heat"
goes into the house, and the panels are simple and could be cheap in large
quantities, and with a little care, the sunspace can be kept above freezing, 
so no antifreeze or heat exchangers are needed. Looks good to me...

I think there are lots of solar water heaters in Israel that have collectors
with selective surfaces sitting right out in the open, with no glazing, even.

>By the way, it's the best idea you've had yet for capturing some of your
>sunspace's massive losses.

Hey, faint praise! But who cares about "massive losses"? The sun is free.
Think of how much is wasted on every football field. Quick, Dan, go glaze
over those fields! What matters to me is simplicity and performance and
economics. 

>After you've figured all the pipe, fittings, hangers, Big Fins,
>glazings and replacement glazings, I'd bet that I can match or beat your
>performance with a similar dollar outlay in commercial panels.

How much would you like to bet? Shall we count the floorspace at $20/ft^2?

>Again, I am not saying that it wont work. But it will not work as well as
>you lead the reader to believe.

It seems pointless to argue about how well Big Fins work.
There are lots of them in the field, and they work very well.

>Shoddy workmanship, second rate materials, half-baked logic and the
>frustration caused by spending time, energy and money on items that dont
>live up to expectation are exactly the cause of the sad state of the solar
>industry today. 

I think a lot of that was fueled by tax credits.

>Nick, you hold a peculiar responsibility here.

Correct. I feel a need to present the truth as I see it.

>The forcefulness of the way you post your arguments,

Ah the joy of life intense, as opposed to live in houses...

>the overwhelming and mind numbing use of mathematics and formulas

Some minds are more easily numbed than others, but this is mostly high
school arithmetic. I find it much simpler than IRS forms.

>(if you can't dazzle them with brillance...),

Baffle 'em with bullshit? That's not my intention at all.

>and the shear proliferation of your posts make some think that you know what
>you are saying.

Remarkable, isn't it? Just tell the truth, and some people believe you.

>To say nothing about your self appointed importance, "designer of low-cost,
>high-performance solar houses."

Did I say that? No... And in fact I haven't ever helped design a house. Not
for long, anyway. I'm a mere engineer, not an architect. I started helping
design a house a few months ago, with a local builder who'd sold his clients
on using me as their solar design consultant, but at our last meeting, the
architect began screaming at me and ordered me out of the room. Can't imagine
why :-) It might have had something to do with the fact that it was a fixed-
price design job, and the builder and architect decided they wanted a larger 
share of that money, after the clients were hooked.

>If you propagate a theory as fact and it doesn't quite pan out, or
>overlook a basic componet, it becomes a detriment to all of us.

Only to those who believe it can work, and find it cannot. 

You don't seem to be in that camp.

You are not a pioneer.

Nick



From inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk!miller@bris.ac.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:10 EDT 1996
Article: 865 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!warwick!bsmail!inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk!miller
From: Simon Miller <miller@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower 
In-Reply-To: <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk>
Sender: usenet@uns.bris.ac.uk (Usenet news owner)
Nntp-Posting-Host: inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk
Reply-To: inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk!miller@bris.ac.uk
Organization: University of Bristol, England
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <ebohlmanDrxJnL.Gn3@netcom.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:04:58 GMT
Lines: 28
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:106675 alt.energy.renewable:15515 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1333 alt.solar.thermal:865 sci.energy:50536

On 31 May 1996 michaelc@netwave.net wrote:

> In article <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net>, grobe@netins.net wrote:
> >
> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
> 
> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
> much less than that.
> 
> Very small power needs covering micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc and also
> small scale heating&cooling also would be a needed newsgroup in my 
> opinion as I have been studying homepower for the past 6 months.
> 
> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower
> 

In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Miller                                     miller@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk
                                                http://www.ftech.net/~miller/





From pjm@nando.net Wed Jun  5 16:20:11 EDT 1996
Article: 866 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: 1 Jun 1996 11:15:35 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4op8n3$jr8_001@nando.net>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31AB33D3.768E@pclink.com> <4ol0d9$7v6@mulgave.octacon.co.uk> <31AF0484.7DF1@hunt.jhuapl.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail1215.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15516 alt.solar.thermal:866 sci.energy:50538 alt.architecture.alternative:7121 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7149

In article <31AF0484.7DF1@hunt.jhuapl.edu>,
   John Koch S1c <jkoch@hunt.jhuapl.edu> wrote:

~~>	Yes and you can get one from American Science & Surplus at
~~>http://www.sciplus.com/.  It is in their online catalog in the
~~>"experments" section and is listed as "Lil' Putt Putt". 
~~>"Only" $11.95  :)
~~>
~~>John Koch

	Which said link can in turn take you to

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ , which has lots of neat creative science

stuff, including :

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/supliers.html

Which lists lots of neat suppliers !  Good links to browse when you get a
 chance !

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/index.html


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:11 EDT 1996
Article: 867 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: looking suggestions dream house design
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:05:52 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4oihh3$g8r@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <4o28bq$l2m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31A688D3.EBA@patriot.net> <4o7oub$snt@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4oa5va$eii@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> <4oagc6$2t3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port7.sol.co.uk
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15519 alt.solar.thermal:867

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:


>For the last few days I've been trying to think of a way to make heat go down, 
>in a house with high thermal mass walls and a heat-trap type "collector," in 
>which one wall has an air heater outside the insulation, with an outlet near
>the ceiling. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that, simply? Wall
>conduction? A ceiling fan? Some sort of slow-moving water?

I presume this is in a solar house?

If you want something purely passive you might try a black walled
'chimney' to pull the air out, with the intake being in your sunspace.
I believe the technique has been used to ventilate commercial
glasshouses.
You may think this is a waste of the heat going up the chimney,
but the sun is provided free and the system will operate just when it
is needed.
It's only an idea.   :-)



From daniel@laser.net Wed Jun  5 16:20:11 EDT 1996
Article: 868 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!ffx58.laser.net!user
From: daniel@laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 10:24:53 -0400
Organization: Daystar Energy Service
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <daniel-0106961024530001@ffx58.laser.net>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ol9d5$gnn@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx58.laser.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15520 sci.energy:50540 alt.solar.thermal:868 alt.architecture.alternative:7122

In article <4ol9d5$gnn@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>,
76345.2033@compuserve.com (AndyM) wrote:

>Andy Here again, to bring this back to reality . I live on the outer
> banks of north Carolina . This area is prone to lots of hurricanes and
> high winds , and if thats not a convincing argument about cutting
> holes in my Roof.  The roof is 60-60 feet  above ground . All house
> that are built here must be bult on piling  in case of costal
> flooding. 
>   This is my thinking on this project
> 
> store 20 gal of water in the pipes before its fed into the Electric
> Hot water heater and the heater will only have to heat it from say
> 90-100 deg to the 130-140 the heater operates at. with the fact that
> most hot water uses are less then 20 gal this should lead to x% of
> savings in energy. I all ready have a shutdown timer on the heater ,
> it kills the electric to the heater for a total of 10 hours a day
> (energy saving of 10-20% per year).  Can any one quantify how much %
> or $ this will save, Yes i know that i have to bypass the system for
> the 4-5 months of winter or i will lose energy.
> 
> Thanks for all your input
> AndyM

OK guys, you want cheap?, Get the cheapest bare steel tank you can find.
Paint it black, set it in the yard (in the sun) and pipe the potable
supply into the bottom. Draw the hot out of the top to become cold feed
into the main dhw. Bingo, solar dhw. Drain exposed piping if you're
worried about freeze damage, or oversize them and insulate like crazy. In
the Outer Banks, if you use hot water every day, you make the system flow
at least once a day, you shouldn't have to worry about freezing. 

You want to increase the output? Enclose the tank, insulate the north
side, and glaze the south and top. More? Instead of a tank use oversized
pipe, like 4" to increase surface area exposed per gallon of water,
instead of paint, use a selective surface coating, keep the pipe as close
together as possible and either reflect the sunlight between pipes to the
pipes or attach metal fins with the same selective surface. The tighter
the mechanical bond between fin and pipe, the better the heat transfer.
This is called a batch heater and it works very well.

Dan


From frg@io.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:12 EDT 1996
Article: 869 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!bofh.dot!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: THERMOACOUSTIC CYCLE ENGINES AND RESONATORS-INVESTORS WANTED
Date: 29 May 1996 20:37:09 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4oichl$fct@anarchy.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-137.austin.io.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

We need working capital to develop thermoacoustic cycle (TAC) engines and 
thermoacoustic resonators (TAR) for mass marketing.  This technology is the 
first new breakthrough in thermal energy conversion in decades.  These engines 
and resonators convert thermal energy into electric current at high 
efficiency.  They cost less than one-fourth that of photovoltaic cells per 
peak Watt and have applications ranging from pollution-free lawn and garden 
equipment to automobiles to stationary power generation.  They are silent in 
operation and will operate from any source of heat, including chemical fuels 
such as gasoline, propane, alcohol and hydrogen, and from other heat sources 
such as solar radiation, waste heat from industrial processes, etc.  Using 
propane, equipment such as lawnmowers and portable generators are noiseless 
and pollution-free.  Silent generators for RV's, engines for cars, boats, 
small equipment, and many other applications are possible.  The market 
potential is enormous.  If we can find the capital, we will be a multi-million 
dollar corporation in less than five years.  Serious investors can contact 
Jonathan Aristides at (512) 218-4803, or by e-mail at frg@io.com.



From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:12 EDT 1996
Article: 870 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 19:24:31 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <4okvv1$rgk@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk> <4o49pj$ige@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4o7i10$onf@biffo.sol.co.uk> <4o7q8s$sq1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-port30.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>>Transparent Insulation Material.

>Sorry, I'd forgot the acronym, and I thought you were talking about a posting.
>Who makes this TIM, and is it available commercially, and how much does it
>cost and what is its solar energy transmittance and R-value?
Sorry,  I used just the acronym as a dig at you   :-)
I'd have to get back to you on that, but there is a web site.
>>>>Two types of house were built on a site (in Milton Keynes) one to
>>>>building regulation standard the other superinsulated.  That was the
>>>>only difference i.e. window style was normal;  indeed, orientation of
>>>>the house was to minimise solar gain!
>>Otherwise it wouldn't have been a test of superinsulation.

>Can you explain this a bit more?
This was an investigation of superinsulation by the Polytechnic of
Central London, they only wished to investigate this variable, so
passive solar input was minimised in the superinsulated and control
houses.  Fairly normal experimental procedure.

>I wonder what the average temp and amount of sun that falls on a south
>wall is in the coldest month in Milton Keynes? 
Looking at my atlas 3 Celsius and about 1.5 hours bright sunshine in
January.  In short:  I don't know!
Perhaps you can work it out using the latitude?
>Very nice, but I think you are saying that superinsulated houses need very
>little heat, from the sun or any other source. No argument there.
Yes - but a combination of superinsulation and solar may be optimum.

>>These were an off-the-peg Scandinavian system.
>OK. Were they hideously expensive?
No - I said they were then 2000 pounds more than the controls which
were built to pretty much bog-standard energy-wise. 

>>Semi-detached, two storey, three bedroom approx. 75 square metre floor
>>area - pretty normal there.
>Do you mean 75 m^2 on each floor, ie 1600 ft^2 of floorspace in the house,
>or 75 m^2 altogether, ie 800 ft^2 of floorspace?
Um, I was hoping you wouldn't ask  :-)
Looking at the information I have I would say the value is a bit
greater than 75, but is the total.  Therefore I would probably
reassess the  house value at <100k but I still think that 2000 is not
particularly large as part of that considering the gains.
Total energy saving then ~ 100 a year on control - both were fitted
with high efficiency boilers.
You might have got a better deal from the bank in this case -
(remember solar gain was minimised), but is that the whole point?





From gcp@taynet.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:13 EDT 1996
Article: 871 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Seek Passive Solar Design FAQ/Guide
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 19:28:43 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4ol06u$rgk@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <4modct$1kg@river.biddeford.com> <3191E657.27DE@patriot.net> <4ninj8$mae@biffo.sol.co.uk> <319D61AF.1AA@patriot.net> <4nkgt4$5q8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31A05AB3.1FA8@patriot.net> <4o2esu$1ea@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial1-port30.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp) wrote:

>>> >> On the latter a recent design here in the UK (Scotland in particular)
>>> >> has aimed at reducing cost rather than increasing efficiency of a
>>> >> solar panel.
>>> 
>>> What a strange and excellent idea :-)
>That's what I thought and as someone has already asked me, and to
>satisfy my own curiosity, I shall attempt to find out more.

The item on solar heating was broadcast on SCIENCE NOW, tx:04/05/96, 
Radio Four.
You can contact the designer direct:
Dr Kerr MacGregor
Mechanical Engineering Department
Napier College
Edinburgh
EH14 1DJ
If you would like a transcript of the programme please send a cheque
for 
3.00, made payable to British Broadcasting Corporation, to:
Science Now
Room 7079 Broadcasting House
London  W1A 1AA

Bit of advertising for the Beeb there.  :-)
I do have other things to do, so feel free to make your own enquiries
in the meantime!




From frg@io.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:13 EDT 1996
Article: 872 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: THERMOACOUSTIC ENGINES AND GENERATORS-INVESTORS WANTED
Date: 30 May 1996 22:47:19 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4ol8hn$7h8@nntp-1.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-126.austin.io.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

We need working capital to develop thermoacoustic cycle (TAC) engines and 
thermoacoustic resonators (TAR) for mass marketing.  This technology is the 
first new breakthrough in thermal energy conversion in decades.  These engines 
and resonators convert thermal energy into electric current at high 
efficiency.  They cost less than one-fourth that of photovoltaic cells per 
peak Watt and have applications ranging from pollution-free lawn and garden 
equipment to automobiles to stationary power generation.  They are silent in 
operation and will operate from any source of heat, including chemical fuels 
such as gasoline, propane, alcohol and hydrogen, and from other heat sources 
such as solar radiation, waste heat from industrial processes, etc.  Using 
propane, equipment such as lawnmowers and portable generators are noiseless 
and pollution-free.  Silent generators for RV's, engines for cars, boats, 
small equipment, and many other applications are possible.  The market 
potential is enormous.  If we can find the capital, we will be a multi-million 
dollar corporation in less than five years.  Serious investors can contact 
Jonathan Aristides at (512) 218-4803, or by e-mail at frg@io.com.

Fellows Research Group, Inc.
P.O. Box 201207
Austin, TX  78720-1207




From redrok@pclink.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:13 EDT 1996
Article: 873 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!usenet
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: THERMOACOUSTIC CYCLE ENGINES AND RESONATORS-INVESTORS WANTED
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:21:24 -0700
Organization: Red Rock Energy
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <31AF1C84.1104@pclink.com>
References: <4oichl$fct@anarchy.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-13.pclink.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)

Does anyone know anything about this?
Sounds to good to be true.
They want to sell an infopack for $135.00.

If it is true can anyone explain to us how it works.

frg wrote:
> 
> We need working capital to develop thermoacoustic cycle (TAC) engines and
> thermoacoustic resonators (TAR) for mass marketing.  This technology is the
> first new breakthrough in thermal energy conversion in decades.  These engines
> and resonators convert thermal energy into electric current at high
> efficiency. The market
> potential is enormous.  If we can find the capital, we will be a multi-million
> dollar corporation in less than five years.  Serious investors can contact
> Jonathan Aristides at (512) 218-4803, or by e-mail at frg@io.com.-- 
CUL8ER
Duane C. Johnson
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
redrok@pclink.com
(612)426-4766 h  635-5065 d


From ddoty96@msn.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:14 EDT 1996
Article: 874 of alt.solar.thermal
From: ddoty96@msn.com (Dan Doty)
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 2 Jun 96 00:02:05 -0700
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Message-ID: <0000599d+000001af@msn.com>
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Organization: The Microsoft Network (msn.com)
Lines: 12

Dear Nick:

I have been heating my hot tub with 200 ft. of black plastic pipe 
running back and forth across my black roof on the north west side of 
my house for 2 weeks. The temp comming off the roof at the hotest 
part of the day is 122 degrease at 3:00 in the afternoon. This is to 
hot for the hot tub at this time of the year. The best place to fine 
info about this is Home Power Mag. or there web site at 
http://www.homepower.com/hp or E-mail at hp@homepower.org

Dan
@ 76963@aol.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:14 EDT 1996
Article: 875 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Need rec. on how to add on to existing Air cond. system.
Date: 1 Jun 1996 23:33:20 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4or220$ol7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <NEWTNews.833395611.31818.jmcclurg@aurora.engr.latech.edu> <4okf7u$c2o@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> <HzfsvAA5kzrxEwX5@ballarat.demon.co.uk> <4oqnk5$jqo_001@nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7206 sci.energy:50562 alt.solar.thermal:875 alt.architecture.alternative:7154

paul milligan <pjm@nando.net> writes on how to size air conditioning by
the method of throwing up...

>...obtain as many brochures as possible from many different manufacturers.
>...Throw them up in the air until only one lands face up.
>...Buy that one.
 
Might work for solar water heaters too. I noticed this house, years ago, a
rural Irish B & B... I actually stayed there. More charm than hot water...

The owners explained that their system didn't work all that well, but it was
very environmentally-friendly: up on the roof, straddling the ridge, was an
old clawfoot bathtub, painted black... Mighta made Mother Earth News... ("We
drove around for a few hours, until we found an ol' bathtub, buried in mud.
Nobody was lookin', so me and Larry, we got this crowbar...")

Nick



From dale@xs4all.nl Wed Jun  5 16:20:15 EDT 1996
Article: 876 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:51:26 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31B12BDE.26C8@xs4all.nl>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <0000599d+000001af@msn.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd07-16.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-XS4ALL-Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 06:47:03 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
To: Dan Doty <ddoty96@msn.com>

Where are you located? 
And how much water per hour is passing through your pipe?

Also, what is the temperature at noon?, or perhaps 6:00pm or 
on a cloudy day?
This would be helpful for those of us who cannot get home 
power magazine.

Finally, What is the pipe made of? Can you say anything about 
the safety and durability of black plastic pipe? 

dale


From scruss@colloquium.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:15 EDT 1996
Article: 877 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!colloquium.co.uk!usenet
From: scruss@colloquium.co.uk (Stewart C. Russell)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 08:40:47 GMT
Organization: Colloquium
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4orjtl$5b3@sow.colloquium.co.uk>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <ebohlmanDrxJnL.Gn3@netcom.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net>
Reply-To: scruss@colloquium.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: senga_02.colloquium.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15563 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1342 alt.solar.thermal:877

michaelc@netwave.net wrote:

>>Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?

>It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
>small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
>much less than that.

A newsgroup is only as good as its input, and further fragmentation
can't be good. Creating a new newsgroup won't magically create a
useful flow of domestic-scale renewable energy information. Reading
alt.solar.* for a few days proves that.

The traffic in alt.energy.renewable isn't too big to deal with,
anyway. Stick with what we've got.

	Stewart


--
Stewart C. Russell, Glasgow, Scotland - scruss@colloquium.co.uk
Much general wonderfulness done with wind turbines.



From morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us Wed Jun  5 16:20:15 EDT 1996
Article: 878 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!cyclops.dsphere.net!noc-annex1-p2.dsphere.net!morris
From: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:51:33 pdt
Organization: Organization? Not much around here...
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <morris.277.00254881@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: noc-annex1-p2.dsphere.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:106895 alt.energy.renewable:15564 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1343 alt.solar.thermal:878 sci.energy:50569

>From: Simon Miller <miller@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower 
>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:04:58 GMT

In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk> Simon Miller <miller@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk> writes:
>On 31 May 1996 michaelc@netwave.net wrote:

>> In article <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net>, grobe@netins.net wrote:
>> >
>> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
>> 
>> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
>> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
>> much less than that.
>> 
>> Very small power needs covering micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc and also
>> small scale heating&cooling also would be a needed newsgroup in my 
>> opinion as I have been studying homepower for the past 6 months.
>> 
>> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
>> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower
>> 

>In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
>a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?

Given the two, I'd prefer sci.energy.homepower over alt.energy.homepower.
But let's consider what would be the most useful - we'd cover not only
electrical generation (which covers micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc), but also 
solar thermal management, water pumping, insulation information, maybe even 
straw bale housing! Hopefully the information in the newsgroup 
will include understanding the science behind the topics.

I currently scan misc.consumers.house, alt.energy.renewable, 
alt.solar.{photovoltaic thermal}, comp.home.{automation misc}
misc.consumers.{house frugal-living},sci.energy, sci.engineering.heat-vent-ac,
sci.electronics, sci.electronics.{repair equipment}, and I see 
ocasional postings that pertains to the concerns expressed above. But it's too
musch to expect everyone to scan all of those groups all the time.

Since the topics mentioned above concern energy management, and self-reliance,
maybe we should consider newsgroup names like:

alt.energy.self-reliant
alt.home.self-reliant
alt.home-energy-management

(or maybe something like the above under sci.)

misc.consumers.self-reliant, 
sci.engineering.self-reliant

Inteligent commentary and opinions welcome, lets make this a discussion,
flames to dev/null.




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:16 EDT 1996
Article: 879 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: a solar barbecue?
Date: 2 Jun 1996 09:22:04 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 139
Message-ID: <4os4hs$psa@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

Can we make a permanent outdoor solar cooker that looks something like this,
and stays hot for 24 hours a day, day after day all year?

           south view                    east view
    ---------------------------          ------------------
   |                           |        |  R30 movable cover
   |      ----------------     |        |            -----------
   |     |  cooking area  |    |        |           |  cooking area
    ---------------------------   ---   |------------------
   |  air  |            | air  |        |/    .    <== cooler air  
   |   in  |            |  in  |        |  R  .    .   from masonry shelf
   |---------------------------|   |    |  3  /-------------------------
   |       |     air    |      |        |  0  s    warmer air to shelf ==>
   |       |     out    |      |   |    |     s
   | - - -  ------------  - -  |        |  -  s  -   --------------------
   | ^      vent area Av   ^   |   |    |     s     |         R30 here too
   | |                     |   |        |     s     |
   |  -glazing starts here-    |   |    |     s     |  strawbales and mortar?
   |                           |   |    |     s     |
   |                           |        |     s     | R30 wall
   4'?                         |        |     s     |
   |       glazed area A       |   H    |<-G->s<-G->|
   |                           |        |     s     |      Storage area?
   |                           |   |    |     s     |
   |                           |        |     s     |
   |                           |   |    |     s     |
   |                           |        |           |
   |            4'?            |   |    |\        / |
 -  ---------------------------   ---   |-----------| - - - - - - - - - -
                                        ^
                                        |  
                                         -- two layers of glazing?

Perhaps a simple passive air heating system a la Norman Saunders, PE, or
Steve Baer, in which the sun shines through two or three outer layers of
glazing, onto a porous absorber surface, with an air gap of dimension G 
between the glazings and the absorber, and another between the absorber
and the wall.

Cooler air from a high-thermal-mass masonry shelf, eg some concrete blocks
with their holes running north and south, would be persuaded to flow down 
between the colder glazing and the absorber, then  up  through the air gap
between the absorber and the wall. This would be more thermally efficient
than a more typical system in which the solar heated air is in contact with
the cold outer glazing. The shelf would have a tight-fitting cover. 

We might start with an R30 wall, say 6" of fiberglass and 2" of foam behind a
piece of dark cement "Wonderboard." No backdraft dampers, because at night
the cool air would form a stagnant pool that just stays in the air heater
pocket, since cold air sinks, while the warmer air stays trapped in the roof
shelf, like an igloo, which has the entrance below the floor.

The width of gap G determines the airflow resistance, in part. Steve Baer
says G might well be H/15, eg 4" for an 4' high wall. The vent area Av might
be about 5% of the glazed area. The porous absorber might be one or more
layers of black aluminum window screen, with an absorbing area of up to 5
times the window area, large enough so that most of the heat from the absorber
is transferred to the flowing air, vs having a small-area hot absorber that
loses a lot of heat to the glazing by radiation. One might measure success by
glazing and absorber temperatures, the lower the better. One way to measure
these temps is to use an Exergen D501 scanning thermometer (about $1000.)

One way to look at the airflow is to blow some smoke into the collector. The 
useful heat output of the collector is proportional to the product of the
air velocity and the temperature difference between the input and output air.
50% solar collection efficiency would be a good target...

Suppose our perpetually-hot outdoor solar barbecue/shrine were 8' wide x
4' tall, with a white ground reflector in front to the south, and reflective
wings to the side to bounce most of the sun onto a 4' x 4' vertical collecting
surface below the south edge of the grille/high-thermal-mass shelf, which
might be 2' x 4' x 2' thick. What would the temperature of the shelf be,
after a long string of average January days, in Abilene, TX, where the
average outdoor temp is 43 and the average amount of sun that falls on a
south wall is 1,400 Btu/ft^2/day?

First let's find the solar input. NREL measured 1,400 Btu with a ground
reflectivity of 0.2, but a white surface, eg white paint, might have a
reflectivity of 0.8, to the sun becomes 1.8x1,400/1.2 = 2,100 Btu/day.
Next we have the 2:1 non-imaging concentrators which raise this to about 
4,200 Btu/ft^2/day, as they bounce all the winter sun from +/- 45 degrees (?)
azimuth from 32 ft^2 of south-facing wall onto 16 ft^2. The total sun in is

Ein = 16 ft^2 x 4200 Btu/ft^2/day = 67,200 Btu/day.

How much heat would leave the cooker during a 24 hour day? If the masonry shelf
has a temperature T, and a surface area of 8 ft^2 each for the top and bottom
and 8 ft^2 each for the north and south sides, and 4 ft^2 each for the east
and west sides of the shelf, the energy Eout that flows out of the cooker
during an average January day will be roughly 

Eout = 6 hr(T-43)16ft^2/R2           for the collector face during the day
    + 18 hr(43-43)16ft^2/R2          ie 0, for the collector face at night
    + 24 hr(T-43)40ft^2/R30          for all other surfaces, 24 hours a day

     = (48+32)(T-43) = 80T.
     
If Ein = Eout, T = 43 + 67,200/80 = 883 F. This is promising, altho it will
be a lot cooler, since radiation loss will become significant at this temp.
The porous absorber would help reduce that loss, by absorbing some of the
heat that tries to radiate back out the glazing from the absorbing surfaces
further in. This could use some experiments with numbers of layers and solar
and airflow porosities, including some layers made of rusty metal mesh, which
has selective surface properties. A solar crabtrap. Suppose the shelf temp
were 400 F, 24 hours a day, in January. The cooking temp could be less, if
there were some way to regulate the heat.

How would this temp change with time, eg on a day without sun? Suppose we made
the shelf mostly out of steel, weighing 489 pounds per cubic foot, with a
heat capacity of about 60 Btu/F-ft^3 (vs about half that for concrete or 1/3
that for sand--lots of old pieces of steel buried in sand? Bury the pot in
the hot sand too?) Then we'd have a thermal mass of 60x2x4x2 = 960 Btu/F, in
our 4 ton shelf. This solar cooker would be theftproof and tornado proof. It
might make a nice outdoor addition to a public park, or a school, as well as
a private backyard.

On a cloudy day, the RC time constant would be

RC = (30ft^2-Btu/hr-F)/40ft^2(960Btu/F) = 720 hours, or 30 days. Not bad...

If the shelf started out at 400 F on a cloudy week, after 5 days the
temp would be T(5) = 43 + (400-43)exp(-5/30) = 345 F... Not bad...

Some useful rules of thumb:

Q (cfm) = 16.6 Av sqrt(H delta T), for an open chimney, in which
               Av is the smaller vent area in square feet,
	       H is the chimney height in feet, and
	       delta T is the input/output air temp difference (F).

U = 0.174E-8 Ac (T+460)^4  Btu per hour is re-radiated by an Ac ft^2
               non-selective surface at temperature T (F).  

Full sun is about 300 Btu/ft^2/hour.

1 Btu will heat about 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F.

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:16 EDT 1996
Article: 880 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vistachrome.com!news.supernet.net!news.cais.net!bofh.dot!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 2 Jun 1996 01:23:01 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4or8fl$p37@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <4ogkq9$fm3@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4ohf9f$jn1@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <0000599d+000001af@msn.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

>Dear Nick:

Hello Dan...

>I have been heating my hot tub with 200 ft. of black plastic pipe 
>running back and forth across my black roof on the north west side of 
>my house for 2 weeks.

The northwest side... I wonder if you have a southeast roof you could use.

>The temp comming off the roof at the hotest part of the day is 122
>degrease at 3:00 in the afternoon.

Sounds like it works pretty well, in this season. It would be fun to try to
keep the tub warm enough to use in January. Seems like that wouldn't be too
difficult, if it had a good cover or moved to some place with a hot spring...
A small solar collector/water store built into the south wall of the base?

>This is to hot for the hot tub at this time of the year.

People like hot tubs around 104 F. There's a pretty narrow range... 100 feels
cool to me, and 106 feels very hot... It's odd that there's all that water,
but it isn't very useful for storing heat for a few cloudy days, because the
usable temperature range is so small. We might start with a $600 6' wide x
5' deep x 12' long 1,500 gal septic tank... If it drops from 106 to 104 F in
5 days, it needs 104 = 36 + (106-36)exp(-5x24/RC) ==> RC = -120 hr/ln(68/70)
= 4140 hours, ie 6 months. Wow. The septic tank has 324 ft^2 of surface and
12K pounds of water, so the R-value of the surface would have to be
324x4140/12K = 112, eg 22" of Styrofoam...

On the other hand, if it had 6" of Styrofoam or a strawbale wall around it,
it would lose about 5x24(106-36)324/R30 = 91K Btu over 5 days, which might
be supplied by 91K/50 = 1,800 pounds of water cooling from 154 to 104 F.
Another water wall on the south side, 12' long x 5' high x 6" thick? Where
I live, that south wall would get about 60K Btu/day of sun in December, of
which about 6hr(154-36)60ft^2/R2 = 21K would go back out through 2 layers of
glazing, on an average day, leaving more than enough to keep the tub warm...

>The best place to fine info about this is Home Power Mag or there web site at 
>http://www.homepower.com/hp or E-mail at hp@homepower.org

I remember a solar heater described their using lots of
black tubing in flat spirals on a roof...
Worked pretty well, as I recall.
And cheap, vs store-bought,
rooftop, solar
collectors.

Nick



From ymweaver@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 16:20:16 EDT 1996
Article: 881 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: ymweaver@ix.netcom.com(Mark Weaver )
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar water heater
Date: 3 Jun 1996 14:47:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4outtg$62v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ple-ca6-08.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 03  9:47:12 AM CDT 1996


  I have 2 solar water tanks on my roof.  They were removed to repair
the roof and now I'm left with the task of re-installing.  My roof is
slanted and I'm not sure how to tell which end of the tanks are the
inlet and which is the outlet.

  Any help is much appreciated.

ymweaver@ix.netcom.com



From ppi@desiner.demon.co.uk Wed Jun  5 16:20:17 EDT 1996
Article: 882 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!bofh.dot!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!desiner.demon.co.uk
From: ppi@desiner.demon.co.uk (Pia Paleologo)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Help a solar ignoramous please!
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:21:52 GMT
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <833815305.16525.0@desiner.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ppi@desiner.demon.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: desiner.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: desiner.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

As usual I have been boasting about the 'net.....
It's a bit unfair to expect you guys to help me out of that one BUT..
I'll ask anyway ;-)
A friend (here in the UK) is thinking of installing solar powered air
conditioning in his house in Florida.  He cannot find the necessary
info in this country and, when asked to put his query as briefly as
possible, came up with the following:-
"What area of solar panels and energy storage would be required to
obtain the current necessary to power three 1hp home air conditioners
in Florida?"
If anybody can help either with
1.  a reply to his question, or
2.  email addresses or URLs where other useful info can be otained
I would be very grateful.
many thanks.
Pia

---
Pia Paleologo
pia@desiner.demon.co.uk
(P.P.I) London, U.K.
fax +44 171 9766007
---



From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:17 EDT 1996
Article: 883 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!snare.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 16:48:50 -0500
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 168
Message-ID: <dan_settles-0406961648500001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <dan_settles-2905961710030001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ojj14$1r7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: snare.cellbio.duke.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15598 sci.energy:50679 alt.solar.thermal:883 alt.architecture.alternative:7174

Path:
newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups:
alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Help with passive solar hot water storage
Date: 31 May 1996 17:59:33 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4onq45$jq7@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
<dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
<4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
<dan_settles-3105961354310001@cowbell.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newsgate.duke.edu alt.energy.renewable:16870 sci.energy:45466
alt.solar.thermal:1026 alt.architecture.alternative:8154

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> >> Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:
>> >> >(Nick Pine) wrote:
>> 
>> >...why not put the water heater inside the solar closet instead of
>> >upstairs?  The heater is now in the 130 F room, so you don't need to
>> >circulate water through it in order to keep it warm.
>> 
>> Right, but that way, the water needs to be heated on the way in, in a
>> single pass. After it's in the water heater, it won't gain much heat.
>
>That's true.  With the insulation on the heater, it will gain heat from
>the room very slowly, but if I have the water heater temperature set at
>129 F, the heating elements should never have to turn on to maintain that
>temperature after it reaches 129 F.  How much energy does a typical hot
>water heater use just to keep the water hot until we are ready to use it
>vs heating the incoming cold water?

Perhaps you could figure that out, Dan. Suppose the water heater has 2" of
fiberglass around it (~R8), and it's 6' tall and 2' diameter, containing
130 F water, sitting in a 70 F room, and you use 50K Btu of hot water
per day at 110 F, heated from 60 F.

Okay Nick, 

I think you gave me more information than I need, or I don't quite
understand the calculations yet.  So, the water heater will have a surface
area of:
2 x (¼ r^2) + 2¼r x h = 2 x (3.14) + 2 x 3.14 x 6 = 44 ft^2  

In order to maintain the temperature at 130 F in a 70 F room it would take:

44ft^2 x (130-70F) x 24 hr /R8 = 7920 Btu

That would be 15.8% of the total if the 50K Btu figure is your total hot
water expenditure.  


>Also, the conventional heater outside the solar closet will heat the air
>in the house.  In the winter, this wouldn't be a problem, but this would
>be a liability in the summer, especially in warmer areas like the south.
>I'm not sure how significant these factors would be, but it would be
>interesting to find out.

Agreed :-)

>>>100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water pipe from Home
>>>Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x >100 x 12
>>>= 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2. How does this compare with the fin tube that you
>>>suggested?
>> 
>>10' of fin-tube pipe gains about 50 Btu/hr per degree of air-water
>>temperature difference, and your pipe with 1/8" walls (?) might have
>>a U-value of 10, with a water-pipe-water interface, so it might gain
>>229 Btu/hr-F. If the incoming water only passes through it once at,
>>say 3 gpm, and the pipe has a volume of 1/2 gallon, the water will
>>only be in the pipe for about (1/2)/3 = 1/6 min or 1/360 hour, so if
>>it starts out at 60 F, say, it will gain at most 1/360(130-60)x229
>>= 44 Btu, which will heat that 4 pounds of water to 70 F, on the way
>>into the water heater.
 
>Actually, the 100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter tubing would have a
>volume of 2 gallons...

I goofed. Pi((3/4)/2)^2/144x100 = 0.307 ft^3, ie 2.4 gallons... 

>so the water would be in the tube for 2/3 min or 2/180 hour

2.4/3 = 0.79 min or 0.013 hr...

>with a gain of 2/180 (130-60) x 229 = 178 Btu.

gaining at most 0.013 x (130-60) x 229 = 212 Btu...
(the water heats up a bit as it travels through the heat exchanger, so
the warmer water at the end doesn't see as big a temperature difference.)

>Unfortunately, those 178 Btu's now have to heat 16 pounds of water, so
>that doesn't really change anything does it?

I guess not, in the sense of the 70 F water going into the water heater.

>It looks like I'd have to increase the length of the pipe in order to
>get any greater increase in water temperature.  So, if I put in 500 feet
>of tubing, the water would be in the pipe 5 times longer, and I'd have 10
>gallons or 80 lb of water. So I'd gain at most, 10/180 (130-60) x (229 x
>5) = 4452 Btu.  Is that correct?

Not quite, altho it goes in that direction. The first 100' of pipe gets us to
70 F, at most, but the water entering the second 100' of pipe is at 70 F, not
60 F, so the temp difference is 130-70, not 130-60, in that pipe, so it gains
less heat in the second 100', and so on. This is a heat exchanger problem with
a solution with an exponential in it, and you can find the solution on page
3.4 of the 1993 American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air
Conditioning Engineer's Handbook of Fundamentals... 

     Yes, I thought there would be a change in the rate of heat transfer,
but as you can tell I have not yet mastered the required formulas.  I
guess I should try to find a good book to read more it this.  Have any
other suggestions?

Don't forget that you have to transfer the heat into the drums that 
contain the pipe...

     I guess your point is that heat transfer from the air in the solar
closet to the water will be slower than from the air to the BIg Fins?

>How about using two tanks, the first being the above mention galvinized
>tank and the second being a conventional hot water heater?  It's not quite
>as interesting as a fin tube, but it would give you plenty of hot water
>during sunny days, and it would cost you less than a conventional heater
>after those 5 cloudy days.  You'd still have your incoming cold water
>preheated to 80 F before entering the conventional heater.  

Sounds a little better...

>> Perhaps it's really just a matter of taste... Some fin-tube pipe with a
>> conventional water heater upstairs appeals to me...
>
>I agree.  I'll have to think about his a bit.
>> 
>> Or you could try making something attached to the north wall of the sunspace
>> with a single large piece of EPDM rubber, a bladder, folded at the bottom,
>> with silicone caulk and a 2x4 sandwich to seal the side edges and a piece of
>> dark painted sheet metal to keep it from bellying out too much to the south.
>> Sven Tjernagel has site-built about 700 large collectors like this over the
>> last 20 years for commercial uses, for hotels and car washes, each being up
>> to 10' tall x 50' long, with a materials cost of about $1/ft^2...
>> 
>I haven't heard of this before.  So how does the water move through this
>device?  Does he just let cold water  flow into one end, and run out the
>other end after absorbing heat for 50 feet?

Sven used to run a length of PVC pipe with some holes in it along the top
edge, and let the water trickle down inside the rubber bladder and collect
the water at the bottom edge, but that way, there can be hot spots, and his
slope was limited to about 45 degrees... He didn't use any sheet metal on
the front, and his EPDM rubber wore out and had to be replaced after about
7 years. I think it's probably better to use some sheet metal on the front,
and fill the bladder solid with a thin sheet of water, to make the EPDM
last forever and allow a more vertical collector orientation to maximize
winter gain. 

Nick

     By the way, I received the copy of your paper last night.  Thanks
very much.
Dan


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun  5 16:20:18 EDT 1996
Article: 884 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: more simple heat calculations
Date: 5 Jun 1996 09:51:57 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 188
Message-ID: <4p43dt$ske@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4of625$8va@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <dan_settles-3005961147370001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu> <4ol465$8p4@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-0406961648500001@snare.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7267 alt.energy.renewable:15610 sci.energy:50718 alt.solar.thermal:884 alt.architecture.alternative:7176

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:

>>How much energy does a typical water heater use just to keep the water hot
>>until we are ready to use it vs heating the incoming cold water?
 
>Perhaps you could figure that out, Dan. Suppose the water heater has 2" of
>fiberglass around it (~R8), and it's 6' tall and 2' diameter, containing
>130 F water, sitting in a 70 F room, and you use 50K Btu of hot water
>per day at 110 F, heated from 60 F.

Hmmm. Is there too much information here?
 
>So, the water heater will have a surface area of:
>2 x (¼ r^2) + 2¼r x h = 2 x (3.14) + 2 x 3.14 x 6 = 44 ft^2  

That's what I get...

>In order to maintain the temperature at 130 F in a 70 F room it would take:
 
>44ft^2 x (130-70F) x 24 hr /R8 = 7920 Btu

Looks good.

>That would be 15.8% of the total if the 50K Btu figure is your total hot
>water expenditure.  

I agree. It looks like we didn't need to know that the water started out
at 60 F, or that we mixed the 130 F water with cold water to take 110 F
showers. The 50K Btu/day was enough, assuming (reasonably) that the water
in the heater was almost always 130 F, because it had a powerful heater.

Suppose we take a 10 minute, 110 F shower using water at 3 gallons per minute.
That will use 30 gallons of water, and a fraction f of the shower water will
be 130 F water from the water heater, where 110 = 130f + 60(1-f), so
f = (110-60)/(130-60) = 0.714, so 30x0.714 = 21.4 gallons or 171 pounds of
60 F water will flow into the water heater, which will take 171(130-60)
= 11,970 Btu of heat to reach 130 F, and a typical electric water heater
with a 5 kW element, ie 17,065 Btu/hour, will need 11,970/17065 = 0.7 hours
or 42 minutes to heat that water, which is a fairly small fraction of the 
6'x3.14(1^2) = 18.8 ft^3 or 151 gallons of water in the heater, most of which
will be at 130 F during that time. Heating the water will take 0.7x5kW
= 3.5 kWh, ie 35 cents for that shower at 10 cents/kWh.

>>Also, the conventional heater outside the solar closet will heat the air
>>in the house.  In the winter, this wouldn't be a problem, but this would
>>be a liability in the summer, especially in warmer areas like the south.
>>I'm not sure how significant these factors would be, but it would be
>>interesting to find out.

You found 15.8% of the heat was used to keep the water warm, vs heating it, so
0.158x50kWh/24hr = 329 Watts or 1122 Btu/hr is the average power added to the
house over a summer day, ie 27K Btu, that might need to be removed from the
house by a 5K Btu/hr AC running 5 hours a day (PV-powered, of course :-) But
the plumbing system might have a lot to do with this. If the cold water
meanders through lots of pipe in warm parts of the house on the way to the
water heater, it may absorb a lot of heat from the house on the way there.
On the other hand, the shower water may cool a lot within the house on the way
out, via the drain plumbing. Charlie Wing did a TV program in which he built
a tempering tank for incoming cold water along a New England basement ceiling,
starting with a 10 or 20' length of 4-6" PVC pipe, and adding on fittings at
each end to connect it to 3/4" pipe...

>>>>100 feet of 3/4 inch inner diameter polybutylene hot water pipe from Home
>>>>Depot costs $60 and would have a surface area of (¼ 7/8) x >100 x 12
>>>>= 3299 in^2 or 22.9 ft^2. How does this compare with the fin tube that you
>>>>suggested?

[stuff snipped, on solar closet air-water heat exchangers] 

>>>10' of fin-tube pipe gains about 50 Btu/hr per degree of air-water
>>>temperature difference, and your pipe with 1/8" walls (?) might have
>>>a U-value of 10, with a water-pipe-water interface, so it might gain
>>>229 Btu/hr-F, in one pass...
 
>>It looks like I'd have to increase the length of the pipe in order to
>>get any greater increase in water temperature.  So, if I put in 500 feet
>>of tubing, the water would be in the pipe 5 times longer, and I'd have 10
>>gallons or 80 lb of water. So I'd gain at most, 10/180 (130-60) x (229 x
>>5) = 4452 Btu.  Is that correct?
 
>Not quite, altho it goes in that direction. The first 100' of pipe gets us to
>70 F, at most, but the water entering the second 100' of pipe is at 70 F, not
>60 F, so the temp difference is 130-70, not 130-60, in that pipe, so it gains
>less heat in the second 100', and so on. This is a heat exchanger problem with
>a solution with an exponential in it, which you can find on page 3.4 of the
>1993 American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning
>Engineer's Handbook of Fundamentals (the "ASHRAE HOF.")
 
>     Yes, I thought there would be a change in the rate of heat transfer,
>but as you can tell I have not yet mastered the required formulas.

The ASHRAE HOF procedure in this case, with 100' of pipe sitting in 130 F
water, might go like something like this:

1. Define the heat exchanger effectiveness as E = (Tco-Tci)/(Thi-Tci) where 
   Tco is the cold water outlet temp, to be determined,
   Tci is the cold water inlet temp, eg 60 F, and 
   Thi is the hot water inlet temp, eg 130 F. 

   This formula applies to the case where the cold fluid changes temperature
   a lot more than the hot fluid does, ie "Cc = Cmin."

   So, E = (Tco-60)/(130-60), so if the "effectiveness" were 1 (for some
   reason they don't call this "efficiency"), the cold water would emerge
   at 130 F. In reality, (perhaps :-) Tco = 60 + (130-60)E.

2. Find NTU, the "Number of Heat Exchanger Transfer Units":

   A substep: find the "heat capacity flow rate" for the cold water.
   At 3 gpm, this would be Cc= 3 gpm x 8lb/gal x 60min/hr = 1440 Btu/hr-F.

   NTU = AxUavg/Cmin = 22.9 ft^2xU10(?)/1440 = 0.159.

   (Adding more pipe raises this.) 

3. Find the capacity rate ratio, Z = Cmin/Cmax. In this case, I'd say the
   hot water has an infinite capacity rate, compared to the cold, so Z = 0,
   and in that case, according to the book, E = 1-exp(-NTU) = 0.147, so the
   cold water outlet temp would be Tco = 60 + (130-60)(0.147) = 70.29 F,
   almost the same as what we calculated with R-value arithmetic.

I wonder how this changes with 500' of pipe...

I think I did this right, although some ASHRAE engineer might find a mistake.
There are other formulas in the HOF for different situations, on page 3.4.

>I guess I should try to find a good book to read more it this.  Have any
>other suggestions?
 
A good high school or college physics book would help. One that talks about
heatflow. "Ohm's law for heatflow," aka Newton's law of cooling, or "the
fundamental law of heat conduction" is cleverly disguised with calculus
on page 552 of Halliday and Resnick's _Physics, Part I_, 1966. An older
high school physics book might use arithmetic. Check out a used bookstore.
Some old technical books are a lot easier to read than new ones. Cheaper too.
Basic heatflow physics descriptions haven't changed much in hundreds of years,
and the physics itself hasn't changed in millions of years. 

Take a look at the ASHRAE HOF, and try to understand it in small doses :-)
It's a fairly unbiased collection of practical heating knowedge gathered over
many years by a dedicated non-profit group of HVAC engineers without too 
many axes to grind, except to search for truth and systems that work, who
have been doing the practical work of figuring out how much heat houses need
in the winter, by adding up areas divided by thermal resistances of various
wall and window and roof materials, and multiplying by temp differences. This
R-value arithmetic really does work, altho the rules are sometimes confusing.
The ASHRAE folk tend to gravitate towards active mechanical systems with lots
of pumps and pipes and electricity, but R-values can be used to design high-
performance solar houses. R-values work, for predicting heatflows within the
reasonable temperature ranges where they have been measured.

Another good and less technical book is Charlie Wing's _From the Walls In_,
which reproduces some ASHRAE tables, and has lots of other good info inside
about beam strenths, etc. It's out of print, unfortunately.

Another in-print book is _HVAC Contracting_, a $24.50 Craftsman book by
Robert and William Dries, which has 30 pages on heat load estimation, and
lots of other practical stuff, like how to run a business.

And you might look at Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal
Processes_, 2nd ed, again in small doses, looking more at the graphs and
arithmetic than all the complicated calculus.

>Don't forget that you have to transfer the heat into the drums that 
>contain the pipe...
 
>     I guess your point is that heat transfer from the air in the solar
>closet to the water will be slower than from the air to the BIg Fins?

No, I just meant that if we put 500' of pipe in some of the drums, we may
find that the more significant bottleneck for heatflow becomes the path for
getting the heat from the hot air into the drumwater, via the limited drum 
surface surrounding the 500' of pipe. Say we used 4 drums, with a surface
of 100 ft^2 and an approximate U-value of 1.5. Then we have 150 Btu/hr-F,
which is a big resistor, electrically speaking, 75 times bigger, and in series
with our 500x22.9 Btu/hr-F for the pipe... So that would be the limiting
factor for heatflow, even if we could fit 10 miles of pipe inside the drums
to make the water-water heat exchanger almost perfect. One nice thing is
that the drum water has significant thermal mass, so its temperature won't
change much during a shower, so we can calculate the heatflow into the drums
over 24 hours, and not worry much about how that happens in the short term.

>By the way, I received the copy of your paper last night.  Thanks very much.

You're welcome. Perhaps you will build a bigger sunspace and solar closet :-)

Nick



From steen@x1.us.ohio-state.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:16 EDT 1996
Article: 885 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!steen
From: steen@x1.us.ohio-state.edu (Steen Hansen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: 4 Jun 1996 20:11:09 GMT
Organization: University Technology Services
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4p258t$h5c@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <4orjtl$5b3@sow.colloquium.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: x1.us.ohio-state.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15619 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1348 alt.solar.thermal:885

In article <4orjtl$5b3@sow.colloquium.co.uk>,
Stewart C. Russell <scruss@colloquium.co.uk> wrote:
>michaelc@netwave.net wrote:
>
>The traffic in alt.energy.renewable isn't too big to deal with,
>anyway. Stick with what we've got.

I agree, except some sites do not accept postings from any alt.* groups.
If we can get a sci.* group I would vote for it, otherwise I don't see
any point, given the current volume.

Steen

-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid), Computer Specialist, The Ohio State University

Watching TV and drinking beer has a lot in common: Too much makes you
stupid.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:16 EDT 1996
Article: 886 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling - Ask Nick Pine
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:15:17 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <4p5eto$mac_001@nando.net> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7288 alt.energy.renewable:15636 alt.architecture.alternative:7185 sci.energy:50793 alt.solar.thermal:886

Marc L O'Brien <mlobrien@fridgemech.win-uk.net> wrote:

Ask Nick Pine? **I'm** not a Freon pumper! :-) But if you like, I'll try
to help. First a word about greenhouse shadecloth. I've almost convinced
the local newspaper, The Collegeville Independent, "Neutral on Nothing--
Accept and defend the truth, whatever the source!" which is 122 years old
this week, to hang a 24' x 32' piece of 80% sun-absorbing red greenhouse
shadecloth over the barn red south wall of their converted barn with R11
insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. The windows alone will pass
600 Btu/ft^2/day of sun into the building in August, ie 50K Btu/day, or 10
hours of 5,000 Btu/hr AC, when the average daily max outdoor temp is 85 F,
with a daily night min of 66 and a 24 hr average of 76. This stuff costs
about 20 cents/ft^2 from Stuppy at (800) 877-5025, sewed to order with
hems and grommets in about 2 weeks, and it comes in various colors (black
being my favorite :-) So this should save them about a dollar a day in
AC cost and make the place more comfy inside...

>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:

>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
>>the same term to describe ).

Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)

>        Changing the subject slightly, cold room design normally
>works on 16 Hr out of 24Hr. Lots of spare capacity here and time for
>off cycle passive air circ defrost. Off for considerably more time
>than the 8 Hrs above, then open products like beef become too moist
>and soft to work on.

I suppose that's not much of a problem in the UK these days. 

>Back to the home system, If the home contains a large thermal mass
>then during initial temperature pull down the unit will run
>continuously as normal.

Sounds reasonable to me...

>Then when room temperature first reaches the
>set point the AC cycles but the room mass would not yet have
>dropped to set point and so will quickly warm the room air again
>bringing the AC back on. The AC will appear to short cycle until
>the rooms thermal mass more closely reaches set point.

So the duty cycle will gradually decrease over time...

>Then once the room mass is within the thermostats differential temperature
>range it affects cycling time depending on the ratio of that mass
>to rate of room heat ingress.

I think I see what you are getting at here. What we really want is a house
with a large RC time constant, no? Perhaps one with a huge amount of thermal
mass, and a reasonable amount of insulation. Suppose those two brothers who
built their stone house with 13 million pounds of rocks, including rocks for
the roof (written up in Mother Earth News recently) had foamed the outside
with 4" of urethane? Hmmm. RC = R30/3000ft^2x13x10^6x0.16 = 20,800 hours or
28 months or 2.4 years. Open it up for a few days once a year in the winter,
if it begins to get too warm, and open it up for a few days every summer if
it gets too cold. No need for heat or AC. The average yearly temp where I
live is about 55 F, so it would be open more often in summer. If we start
the house out at 70 F in July, by the end of our 5500 DD heating season, it
will have lost 13.2 million Btu, enough to cool the rock walls 6 degrees F.

>        So, if the room mass versus heat ingress is low then the
>unit will cycle frequently.
>        If the room mass versus heat ingress is high then the unit
>will stretch its off and on cycles.

That makes sense to me.

>Nick Pine would explain I'm sure. 

Sure. Repent now! Give up your Freon habits!

Hope this helps.

Nick



From mschwarz@winternet.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:17 EDT 1996
Article: 887 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!mschwarz
From: mschwarz@winternet.com (Michael Schwarz)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Followup-To: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Date: 6 Jun 1996 19:20:22 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4p7b1m$i1q@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <morris.277.00254881@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: parka.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107242 alt.energy.renewable:15640 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1350 alt.solar.thermal:887 sci.energy:50804

: >> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
: >> 
: >> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
: >> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
: >> much less than that.
: >> 
: >> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
: >> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower

: >In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
: >a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?

IMHO, the "sci" hierarchy is for scientists engaged in active research.
Unfortunately, that is becoming less and less the case as us layfolk
drive the researchers away with a lot of questions that basically waste
their time.  I think an "alt.energy.homepower" group is a good idea.
It would help turn the scattershot resources out here now into a sort
of "one-stop=shopping."

SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT:  Please check out the FAQ I'm drafting for the
alt.solar.photovoltaic newsgroup.  You will find an HTML version at:

http://www.winternet.com/~mschwarz/solar-faq.html


: Since the topics mentioned above concern energy management, and self-reliance,
: maybe we should consider newsgroup names like:

: alt.energy.self-reliant
: alt.home.self-reliant
: alt.home-energy-management

Again, IMHO: Self-reliance is a dangerous myth.  I have always felt that
people who embrace renewables to be "idependent" are walking down a path
that lets them believe they owe nothing to society and that they no longer
have a stake in the health of the community.

Unless you do without all modern conveniences an "off-gridder" is still
just as much dependent on modern industrial civilization as anyone else.
He or she is just polluting a little less.  I don't mean to minimize the
value of that, but merely to highlight that it is not possible to live
truly apart from the community.  Any such distance is merely comfortable
illusion.  For that reason, I would much prefer "homepower."

: Inteligent commentary and opinions welcome, lets make this a discussion,
: flames to dev/null.

I eagerly await to find out if my commentary is intelligent.


--
Michael A. Schwarz                           Minneapolis, MN
mschwarz@winternet.com                  n0zes@n0zes.ampr.org



From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:17 EDT 1996
Article: 888 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar tube hot water heater
Date: 5 Jun 1996 21:48:45 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <4p4vbt$cgc@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cadb125.cadvision.com

does anyone out there know where I can fing a specific newsgroup or chat line regarding this system?



From frg@io.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:17 EDT 1996
Article: 889 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.millennianet.com!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Thermo-Acoustic Engines and Resonators-Investors Wanted
Date: 5 Jun 1996 22:04:53 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4p50a5$1f0@nntp-1.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-128.austin.io.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

We need working capital to develop thermoacoustic cycle (TAC) engines and 
thermoacoustic resonators (TAR) for mass marketing.  This technology is the 
first new breakthrough in thermal energy conversion in decades.  These engines 
and resonators convert thermal energy into electric current at high 
efficiency.  They cost less than one-fourth that of photovoltaic cells per 
peak Watt and have applications ranging from pollution-free lawn and garden 
equipment to automobiles to stationary power generation.  They are silent in 
operation and will operate from any source of heat, including chemical fuels 
such as gasoline, propane, alcohol and hydrogen, and from other heat sources 
such as solar radiation, waste heat from industrial processes, etc.  Using 
propane, equipment such as lawnmowers and portable generators are noiseless 
and pollution-free.  Silent generators for RV's, engines for cars, boats, 
small equipment, and many other applications are possible.  The market 
potential is enormous.  If we can find the capital, we will be a multi-million 
dollar corporation in less than five years.  Serious investors can contact 
Jonathan Aristides at (512) 218-4803, or by e-mail at frg@io.com.

Fellows Research Group, Inc.
P.O. Box 201207
Austin, TX 78720-1207





From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:18 EDT 1996
Article: 890 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar tubes
Date: 6 Jun 1996 04:02:15 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <4p5l87$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cade124.cadvision.com

Is there anyone out there who is familiar with a newsgroup/chatline which would deal with thermomax solar tubes.  If so, please respond to mfieldin@cadvision.com



From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:18 EDT 1996
Article: 891 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar water heat tubes
Date: 6 Jun 1996 04:05:43 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <4p5len$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cade124.cadvision.com

Is there anybody out there who knows of either a newsgroup or chat line that deals with thermomax solar water heat tubes?  If so please e-mail me at mfieldin@cadvision.com


From rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:14:18 EDT 1996
Article: 892 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet
From: rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mike Davies")
Subject: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Message-ID: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Compulink Information eXchange
X-Newsreader: PowWow
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:39:55 GMT
Lines: 61

Thermomax Solar Panels & the TMX300 controller.

Has anyone got one of these working OK ?

We've had ours about 18 months, and because we don't know anyone else 
who has one, and we don't trust salesmen, we don't know what to expect.

We are using it for domestic hot water. In the winter we use a coal 
fired stove which also does the radiators. In the summer we use the 
sun.

To be fair, there was a fault. In the night, convection currents set up 
and took heat out of the hot water tank, up to the panels, which 
switched the pump on, cooled the panels down again, and this would 
repeat throughout the night, so that if at say 11pm the tank temp was 
60C by 7am it was down to say 35C or less. This didn't matter too much 
in the winter because we had the Rayburn going, but now it is summer...

A few weeks ago I moved the pump and non-return valve to the hot side 
of the hot water tank, and in the process discovered the non-return 
valve was duff, so replaced it, and now overnight we only loose 2 or 3 
deg C. :-)

The problem now is that we seem to loose a fair bit of temp at the end 
of the day, say between 5pm & nightfall. :-(

At the end of a typical day, with the sun coming off the panels, a 
typical set of readings is Collector 63C, Tank 58C, Return 54C. The 
tank reading is really meaningless because we don't use it to switch 
any auxiliary circuits, it just nice to know how hot the hot water is. 
We have the controller set so that the collector must be above 40C to 
switch on, also the difference between the Collector & the Return (DT) 
must be > 8C.

With the return sensor on the return pipe (as it was installed) a 
typical set of readings through the evening would be

Time      17:30  18:00  19:00  19:30  20:00  20:30  21:30  23:00
Collector    63     63     60     54     52     49     45     26
Tank         58     57     56     54     52     50     47     46
Return       54     54     52     46     45     43     38     25

As you can see, we have effectively lost 11C in just the 4 hours up to 
21:30, and then it all seems to stabilise, with virtually no more heat 
loss overnight.

Has anyone any suggestions as to what can be happening here ? It can't 
be convection currents. I've knocked that on the head, so the pump must 
be switching on and extracting heat like it used to overnight. For the 
pump to switch on, Collector must be above 40C & DT must be > 8C, so 
either the return is cooling quicker than the collector, or, what ?

Which leads me to the original question. Has anyone got one of these 
things. What setting are you using, for the collector temp and DT, and 
do you experience this drop too ? The return sensor was installed on 
the pipe returning to the collector. Is the return sensor in the right 
place ? Should I move it to reflect the tank temperature, i.e. on the
tank ?

Mike



From midnite@algonet.se Thu Jun 13 23:14:19 EDT 1996
Article: 893 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!news.sics.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!news
From: midnite@algonet.se (midnite)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:24:35 GMT
Organization: j%nki~w€RJ3M-26XPLZ8L-BFGD44CT-1EA6BC82
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
NNTP-Posting-User: b2c6ad9ea429c6cef93c87732e2a5b740
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

Hi!
I am looking for the address to "Giordano Industries" in marseille in
France. If you know it please let me know. The phonecompany can't find
it.

They manufacture solar vacuum collector tubes. 

If you know any manufactors of solar vacuum tubes, please let me know.

I need this kind of solar collector because I live in cold Sweden.

Regards 
Hans Nilsson
Ringby 6421
S-442 93 Kungalv
Sweden
Fax +46-303-222 839
Pho +46-708-22 83 90




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:19 EDT 1996
Article: 894 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A thermal design case study for a warmstore shed
Date: 7 Jun 1996 11:02:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 543
Message-ID: <4p9gao$hmu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7309 alt.energy.renewable:15663 sci.energy:50850 alt.solar.thermal:894

Here's a guided meander of a thermal design for a 100% solar-heated 8 x 12'
shed in the Philadelphia area, one that might sit on a lawn and be used for
8 hours a day in the winter, for a workshop, studio, playhouse or retreat.
Since it would only be used during the day, perhaps not at all on some days,
we might put the thermal mass overhead and use a low-thermal-mass solar air
heater, an "igloo heat trap" on the south wall with no dampers or power 
required to warm the thermal mass in the attic, and a low-power attic fan
to bring down heat to the low-thermal-mass room when needed...

These days, many "100% solar houses" are very airtight and well-insulated,
and costly, with little glazing or thermal mass, and they are largely heated
by the internal electrical use and bodies of their occupants. Suppose we go
in some other directions, away from superinsulated houses, and try to see
how much thermal mass and glazing and how little insulation we can use in
this solar structure with no other form of heat...

Let's start by assuming the shed is 12' tall, with a ceiling height of 8'
and a 4' tall attic above that, with twenty 55 gallon drums full of water
in the attic, each 2' diameter x 3' tall:

                                                   12'
                                       -------------------------
                     view from above  |  D   D   D   D   D   D  |
                                      |                         |
So, this structure might have about   |  D   D  ceiling  D   D  |
10,000 pounds of water in the attic   |                         | 8'
with R10 attic insulation, eg 2" of   |  D   D    fan    D   D  |
foam, and R1 walls below, eg 3/8"     |                         |
T-111 wooden walls. The lower 8' of   |  D   D   D   D   D   D  |
the south wall would be R2, since      ------------------------- 
it would have glazing over the wood,
with an air gap.
                       8'                        96 ft^2
                ---------------        -------------------------
               |               |      |           R10?          |
               |      R10?     |      |                         |
               |    32 ft^2    |      |         48 ft^2         | 4'
               |               |      |                         |
               |---------------|      |-------------------------|
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||      R1?     |      |            R2?          | 8'
               ||    64 ft^2   |      |          96 ft^2        |
               ||              |      |                         |
   reflecting  ||              |      |                         |
      pool?    ||              |      |                         |
           -----------------------   --------------12'-------------
                   east view                   south view           

The first thing to check might be whether the solar glazing can keep the room
warm on an average December day, with some sun. The room has a total R1 wall
area of 96 + 64 x 2 = 224 ft^2, and another 96 ft^2/R2 for the south wall, for
a total thermal conductance of 224ft^2/R1 + 96ft^2/R2 = 272 Btu/hr-F, not
counting the room ceiling or attic walls or attic ceiling. On a typical 6 hour
December day in Philadelphia, when it's 36 F outside and the south wall gets
1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun, the room might lose 8hr(76-36)272 = 87K Btu of
heat, and the lower 8' x 12' of glazed wall might receive about 96 x 1,000
= 96K Btu. Looks good so far.

IF the water is 130 F after a long string of average December days, it can
supply about (130-80)20x500 = 500K of heat for the room below, enough for
about 5 days without sun, keeping the room warm for 8 hours a day with the
ceiling fan. That seems OK...

But it's marginal, thermally-speaking, and 5 tons is a lot of overhead water,
requiring lots of space, and strong ceiling joists and walls. Suppose we add
a little more insulation to the walls below.

Let's add 2" of Styrofoam to the outside of the north wall, with some latex
paint to protect it from the sun. (Styrofoam on the inside would lower the
thermal mass of the room, but it could be a fire hazard, and it would reduce
the floorspace.) Now the room has 96ft^2/R10 + 96ft^2/R2 + 2x64ft^2/R1 = 186
Btu/hr-F, so on an average winter day it needs 8 (76-36)186 = 60K Btu to stay
at 76 F for 8 hours, so we need 300K/25K = 12 drums in the attic to supply
heat for 5 days without sun, ie 3 tons vs 5 tons of water upstairs, at an
added cost of about $50 for the foam. Seems like a good tradeoff. Note that
no heat is lost from the room to the attic during the day or night, because
the attic is always warmer than the room, as designed. And the room will
gain, not lose heat through the south wall on an average winter day.

Let's check that. In full sun, if the drum temp is 130 F, and the south wall
is about 130 F, and the room temp is 70 F, about (130-70)96 ft^2/R1 = 5760
Btu/hr of heat will flow thru the south wall. Where will it go? Out the other
3 walls of the room, which have a thermal conductance of 96ft^2/R10 (for the
north wall) + 128ft^2/R1 (for the side walls) = 137.6 Btu/F, so we won't have
to open the windows and waste any solar heat if the outdoor temp is less than
Ta, where (70-Ta)137.6 = 5760, ie Ta = 70 - 5760/137.6 = 28 F. But the average
winter temp is 36 F, so we may have to waste a lot of the sun that comes 
through the glazing by venting, especially on warm sunny winter days. So
let's put R10 insulation inside the south wall, eg foil-faced foamboard,
tucked between the 2x4 wall studs on 2' centers. Then the heat that flows in
when the wall is 130 F and the room is 70 F will be 576 Btu/hr (more, if the
studs are exposed), and we can collect solar heat without wasting any by
venting the room, until the outdoor temp rises to 70-576/137.6 = 66 F, at
which point we hardly need heat anyway. Insulating the south wall will also
help with natural cooling in summertime.

With that R10 in the south wall, we have a thermal conductance for the room
of 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x64ft^2/R1 = 147 Btu/hr-F, so on an average December day
the room would need 8(76-36)147 = 47K Btu to stay warm, so we'd need 236K/25K
= 10 drums in the attic to supply heat for 5 days with no sun, ie 5,000 vs
6,000 pounds of water upstairs, adding another $50 in foam. Still seems like
a good tradeoff... 

How big do the joists for the 8' x 12' ceiling have to be to support 5,000
pounds, ie 52 pounds per square foot? If the wood has a max fiber stress
rating in bending of f=1,000 psi and the joists are 16" on center, with an
L=8' span, the total load on a beam is W = 52 psf x 4/3' x 8' = 555 pounds.
The ceiling might be open, with one or two 12' boards running lengthwise to
keep the joists from twisting under the weight of the drums. Bending moment
M=WxLx12/8=6,660 in-lb, section modulus S=M/f=6.6 in^3, and a joist width
b=1.5" would require a joist depth d=sqrt(6S/b)=5.13". So we might use 2x6s. 

Let's add 2 more 4' x 8' sheets of foam to the outside of the sidewalls, so
the total thermal conductance of the room becomes 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x32ft^2/R1
+ 2x32ft^2/R10 = 89.6 Btu/hr-F. Now on an average day the room needs about
8(76-36)90 = 29K Btu to stay warm, with no sun, so we need about 150K/25K = 6
drums in the attic to supply heat for 5 days without sun, ie 3K vs 5K pounds
of water upstairs, spending another $32 on foamboard, which still seems like
a good tradeoff... The room's air infiltration is becoming a larger part of
the thermal conductance now: assuming the attic is absolutely airtight (we
don't want any air leaks there), the 768 ft^2 of room below with 1 Air Change
per Hour would have an effective thermal conductance of about 768/60 cfm =
13 Btu/F. This wasn't very important before, but it has now grown to 15% of
the total thermal conductance. 

At this point, we might remove some of the air heater glazing, and add more
insulation and air-infiltration-proofing, and begin to turn this into a
superinsulated building, but let's put in 4' of south clerestory windows 
instead, for heat and daylight (and drama :-), with some interior insulating
shutters, hinged at the top edge, that fold up and back to the north when the
structure is occupied, and hang down vertically to cover the windows when it
is not. So the 4'x12' of 2" Styrofoam at the top of the south wall becomes
4'x12' of R10 foil-faced foamboard, hinged at the top edge. Single layer
polycarbonate glazing costs about $1/ft^2, lasts many years, and comes in
sheets 49" wide and 0.020" thick, from Replex Plastics at (800) 726-5151.

We now have 144 ft^2 of solar glazing, but only 6 55 gallon drums, each one
having only 25 ft^2 of surface, so the glazing/thermal mass area ratio is
6x25/144=1.04. This is not a good passive system, because with 300x144
=43,200 Btu/hr or about 13 KW of full sun, with an R-value of 2/3 for the
still air film at a drum surface, the air-water temperature difference will
be about 43,200x2/3/150 = 192 F, so the attic will be very warm, and a lot
of the heat in the attic will flow thru the R10 attic insulation, wasting
a lot of the sun that comes through the glazing.

If the thermal mass had 10 times the glazing area, the temp difference across
the thermal mass surface would only be 19 F, which is better. We could switch
to smaller containers of water, eg 50 8 gallon plastic paint pails with lids,
which are about 12" in diameter and 16" tall, for a glazing/thermal mass area
ratio of 2:1, or 720 2 liter soda bottles for an area ratio of 5:1. Another
way to reduce the thermal mass surface resistance is to run the fan to help
collect sun when nobody's in the room. If this could be done without moving
heat down to the room, it might be a good idea. With a 5 mph airflow, the
thermal conductance of the plastic buckets would increase from about 3/2 to
3/2 + 5/5 = 2.5 Btu/hr, according to Fig 1 on page 22.1 of the 1993 ASHRAE
Handbook of Fundamentals. If the buckets had a rougher surface, like stucco,
their conductance would rise to 2 + 5/2 = 4.5. Using roughened paint pails
(how to do that?) might allow saving materials, if they were suspended from
Dacron ropes going from stud to stud overhead, with no ceiling joists. But
suppose we sit them on an attic floor instead, say along the 12' north wall,
stacked 2 high, sitting in a 4' wide x 6" deep EPDM rubber trench full of
rainwater from the roof, perhaps with some 2 liter soda bottles in between.
The pail bottoms would take up 19.6 ft^2 of the 48 ft^2 trench bottom, leaving
28.4 ft^2 x 1/2 = 14.2 ft^3 or 113 gallons or 900 pounds of water in the
trench. It rains about 4" a month in Philadelphia. We might collect rainwater
>from  the flat roof, and run it down into this trench...

Now how about natural cooling in summertime? NREL's Solar Radiation Manual
for Buildings says July is the hottest month in Philadelphia, with an average
daytime high of 86 F, 24 hour average of 77 and average night low of 67, and
an average windspeed of 8 mph. The air contains an average of 0.0133 pounds
of water per pound of dry air, and NREL's metric Solar Radiation Data Manual
for Flat Plate and Concentrating Collectors says this corresponds to 70%
humidity. At what temperature? The ASHRAE HOF says 65 F air with 0.01327
pounds of water per pound of dry air has 100% humidity, which may be why we 
often see dew on the grass on a summer morning. Perhaps this condensation of
water from air limits the nightime temperature drop during the summer in
Philadelphia. When a pound of water condenses from air, it releases about
1,000 Btu of heat, and this heat helps keep the air warm. (Does the same thing
happen in the winter? Is there a sticky point, a temporary plateau, as the
air temperature tries to drop below 32 F, where it has to freeze a lot of
water on the way down? Weather scientist Richard James says no, but I wonder.
It only takes 144 Btu to freeze a pound of water, so freezing may limit the
lower air temp less than condensation, especially in places away from large
bodies of freezing water. 

Suppose we have 50 8 gallon plastic paint pails in the attic, each having
a surface area of about 6 ft^2, and about 4,100 pounds of water with a
thermal mass of about 4,100 Btu/F and a surface area of about 330 ft^2.
If this water is cool, it will cool the room below, since cold air sinks,
and the water will become warmer during a summer day. Suppose the water were
77 F at the end of a summer day, and we opened some vents to the outside
to allow 67 F night air to flow through the attic and cool the water, and
closed up the attic again the next day. If the night air moves slowly, the
rough-surfaced containers of water will have an air film conductance of
about 2 Btu/hr-F, so during the first hour exposed to night air they might
lose about (77-67)330ft^2x2=6,600 Btu of heat, about the same as a small
window air conditioner, but using no power :-) If we add a fan, and somehow 
raise the average air velocity past the pails to say, 4 mph, their thermal
conductance will increase to about 2 + 4/2, or 4, so in the first hour, they
might lose 12,000 Btu of heat while we use 100 Watts of electricity. The
water might cool about 3 F (12,000/4,100) in the first hour. 

The water trench under the pails might also lose heat to the night air by
evaporation (not much, on an average night in Philadelphia.) Page 664 of
Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_ (Wiley, 1991,
2nd edition) has this equation for relative heat loss from a pond by
evaporation:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)  p
     ----- = ------------ ---
      Qe       Pwp - Pa   760

where Qc,pa is the loss of heat from the pond by convection, in Watts/m^2-K,
      Qe is the loss of heat from the pond by evaporation, in Watts/m^2-K,
      Tp and Ta are the Celsius temperatures of the water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are the vapor pressures of the pond surface and air, and 
      p is the barometric pressure, with all pressures in mm Hg.

The book says this ratio of convective to evaporative loss is essentially
independent of windspeed. We already have an estimate for the convective 
loss using a fan, 2 Btu/hr-F, but that's in US units. Let's convert this
nice metric equation above to US units, since most US HVAC engineers are
more familiar with US units. We can start by ignoring the absolute pressure,
since Philadelphia is at sea level, and divide by a factor of 1.8 to make
the ratio come out the same, since there are 1.8 F degrees in each C degree.
Since this is a heat loss ratio, we don't need to worry about the difference
between Btu/hr and Watts. So we have:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)/1.8 
     ----- = ----------------
       Qe        Pwp - Pa  

where Tp and Ta are the Farenheit temperatures of the water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are the vapor pressures of the pond surface and air in mm Hg.

There are 25.4 mm in an inch, so 1 mm Hg is equivalent to 1/25.4" Hg in US
units. Multiplying the denominator of the equation by 25.4, we get a nice
decimal constant:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)/1.8   0.01(Tp-Ta)
     ----- = ---------------- = -----------
       Qe     25.4(Pwp - Pa)      Pwp-Pa

where Qc,pa is the loss of heat from the pond by convection, in Btu/hr-F,
      Qe is the loss of heat from the pond by evaporation, in Btu/hr-F,
      Tp and Ta are Farenheit temperatures of water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are vapor pressures at pond surface and air in inches Hg.

Let's cover the flat roof with a single piece of EPDM rubber, with a 2" board
around the edge, under the rubber, to make a shallow roof pond, so we can pump
some water up from the attic pond through this roof pond on a summer night. 

Since this won't work very well on dewy Philadelphia nights, where we don't
need much cooling anyway, let's temporarily move this shed to Abilene, Texas,
where seldom is heard a discouraging word, and happy Christians spend long
hours listening to air conditioners purr (around indoor campfires? :-), while
avoiding Dark Gulf War Thoughts. July is the hottest month in Abilene, on 
average, with a nightime average low of 73 F and a 24 hour average temp of 84
and an average daytime high of 95, and the humidity ratio of the air is
0.0130 #w/#da. This is almost the same in August, ie hot. The average wind
is about 10 mph (at night, too?) Table 2 on page 6.4 of our trusty HOF says
that air with that humidity ratio is saturated at about 64.5 F, so we now
have a chance to use swamp cooling; 73 F air can hold 0.017575 #w/#da, at a
water vapor pressure of 0.81882" Hg, so that nightime air would have a
relative humidity of about 74%, and a water vapor pressure of 0.74x0.81882
= 0.606" Hg, if I'm doing this right. Water vapor in 77 F moist air has a
pressure of 0.93589" Hg, so on an average 73 F night, with a 10 mph wind,
the 77 F pond might lose (77-73)8'x12'(2+10/2) = 2,688 Btu/hr by convection,
and the ratio above would be 0.01(77-73)/(0.93589-0.606) = 0.0132, so the
pond would lose 2,688/0.0132 = 204K Btu/hr by evaporation, like 41 window
air conditioners...

Wow. Is that right? Can we evaporate 204 pounds of water in an hour, ie 0.45
gallons per minute, on an average night in August in Abilene? There isn't much
water in Texas, so we'd probably want to drain a roof pond during the day, but
Abilene has lots of electricity made from natural gas. A rational Texan with
an AC with a COP of 2, paying 10 cents/kWh of electricity might want to import
evaporative cooling water from a neighboring state at 10 cents/6800 Btu, ie
1.5 cents per pound or 12 cents per gallon, or send the other state gas or
electricity in exchange for water. A rational neighboring state might want to
trade water for gas, especially if they get most of the water back as rain.
Should the tall, dramatic and proud triangular tower at Abilene Christian
University have a pond on its flat roof, if Faith without Works is Dead? :-)

Baruch Givoni's _Passive and Low Energy Cooling of Buildings_ book says that
even a dry roof can be 10 C cooler than the surrounding air, on a calm clear
night, because of night sky radiation. A wind would warm up the roof...

                      *           *            *

Let's move the shed back to Philadelphia now, where pacifist Mennonites
listen to oil burners purr in their basements most of the year, and
people want new houses to look like they were built 100 years ago. 

Suppose we left the roof pond filled up during the day in the summer here,
and stretched a piece of greenhouse shadecloth over it, so the roof is
close to the 67.5 F wet bulb temperature 24 hours a day...

If we left the water in the roof pond in winter, with an R1 layer of bubble
pack on top, it would receive 530 Btu/ft^2/day of sun in December, which would
raise the average temperature of the roof water from 36 F to T, which would
be higher because of the sun, as well as the heat the roof pond receives from
the 130 F pails thru R10 insulation: 24(T-36) = 24(130-T)/R10+530 ==>
T = 1706/26.4 = 64.6 F.

The roof pond would also limit the lower roof temperature for a time, in very
cold weather. Once the 1024 pounds of water on the roof begins to freeze,
it will take 147K Btu to freeze it solid, eg 36 hours at -10 F.

Melting 3' of snow equivalent to 4" of ice off the roof by pumping up some
water from the attic would take about 295K Btu, vs. the available heat from
the attic: 4100 Btu/F x (130-32) = 402K. Once the attic reached 32 F, it
would require another 600K Btu to freeze it solid. If the outdoor temp were
- 10 F, this would happen in t hours, where

  t(32-(-10))/256ft^2/R10 = 600K, ie t = 558 hours, or 23 days.

My house has an old hand-dug well, with water 9' below the ground. Using this
55 F water to melt snow off the roof or raise the roof temp in colder times
is better than wasting our solar store for that purpose. Melting 3' of snow
requires moving up 295K/(55-32) = 12.8K pounds of water, ie 1600 gallons, eg
3.3 gallons per minute for 8 hours. Keeping the roof at 32 F when it's -10 F
outside without freezing the water requires about 4K Btu/hour, ie 0.36 gpm.
Lifting that water 12' requires less than 1 watt of power, while saving over
1 kW of heat, which seems like an energy bargain.

This roof seems consistent with the spirit of section 1610 of the 1993 BOCA
code, which specs a snow load rating of only 12 psf for continuously-heated
flat greenhouse roofs with R-values of less than 2, where I live. So the roof
might have to support 12 psf of snow, 11 psf of water, and 2 pounds of OSB,
etc, ie 25 psf. If the roof joist wood has a max fiber stress in bending of
f=1,000 psi and the joists are 16" on center, with an L=8' span, the beam
load is W = 25 psf x 4/3' x 8' = 267 pounds, M=WxLx12/8=3200 in-lb, section
modulus S=M/f=3.2 in^3, and joist width b=1.5" requires depth d=sqrt(6S/b)
=3.57". So we might use 2x4s for the roof. 

Another way to make the roof warmer is to add a peaked roof, with a more or
less vertical transparent south roof and a straight or parabolic north roof,
reflective on the underside, eg some foil-faced foamboard with kerfs on the
concave side, screwed to some kerfed and curved north roof rafters, to
concentrate another 1000x4x12'= 48K Btu/day of sun down into a 2' wide
shallow water trench along the north edge. Perhaps half of this heat would
end up in the water, with the remainder heating the space under the roof.

A 10' long x 4" diameter PVC pipe might make a nice water heater, tucked up
under the roof peak, with insulation above, but none below.

An underground warmstore might be better here, so the shed is only about 12'
tall at the peak. The attic would only serve as an active collector, with 9
55 gallon drums in a 8' x 8' x 4' deep hole under the floor, lined with a
single 16 x 16' piece of EPDM rubber, folded up like a Chinese restaurant
take-out box, then 1' of earth, then another 12' x 12' layer of rubber, to
make a 6' x 6' x 3' deep tub, which might have the 9 drums standing up in a
3x3 array, with 6" of water in the tub, and a 6" layer (4 ft^3) of pieces of
closed-cell foam above that. One might heat the drums by pumping up water
through the attic trench during the day, and heat the room by opening a
small damper in the 8x8' insulated frame floor to let some warm air out.
This might be a good way to make a 24-hour vs. 8-hour heated shed, since
the storage water temp would be higher, because of the concentrator.

So where are we, in terms of the steady state energy budget for this shed? 
Suppose it has a flat roof, with a roof pond. When last we looked, the 
room's thermal conductance was 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x32ft^2/R1 + 2x32ft^2/R10
= 89.6 Btu/hr-F. Hmmm. Over half of that is the bare wood 4x8' areas of the
sidewalls. Suppose we insulate them, so we have an overall room conductance
of 320 ft^2/R10 = 32. On an average December day, the room will need about
8(76-36)32 = 10K Btu to stay warm, and our 4,100 pounds of water in the attic
will keep it warm for about 4100(130-80)/10K = 20 days without sun, if it
starts out at 130 F.

Let's check the steady-state water temperature. On an average December day,
the south wall admits about 144K Btu of heat when the shed is occupied, with
the clerestory thermal shutters open, and the 3 non-south walls need about
7K Btu to keep warm. If the attic water temp is T, 8(T-36)48ft^2/R1 Btu flow
through the windows, the south wall glazing loses about 6(T-36)96ft^2/R1 of
heat to the outside world, 24(T-36)160ft^2/R10 flows out through the attic
walls, and 24(T-64.6)96ft^2/R10 flows out through the roof. So, if the energy
that flows into the structure during an average day equals the energy that
flows out of the structure,

  144K = 7K + 8(T-36)48 + 6(T-36)96 + 24(T-36)16 + 24(T-64.6)9.6
       = 7K + 384T      + 576T      + 384T       + 230.4T
            - 13824     - 20736     - 13824      - 14884
       = 1574.4T - 56268, so

     T = (144K + 56K)/1574 = 127 F.

Let's try double-glazing the windows:

  144K = 7K + 8(T-36)24 + 6(T-36)96 + 24(T-36)16 + 24(T-64.6)9.6
       = 7K + 192T      + 576T      + 384T       + 230.4T
            - 6912      - 20736     - 13824      - 14884
       = 1382.4T - 49356, so

     T = (144K + 49K)/1382 = 140 F. That's better.

This looks like an R10 100% solar house :-) Ignoring air infiltration. A
bigger house should have better thermal performance, with the same R10 walls.
We probably can't make the water much hotter without a selective surface.

This 1000 Btu/ft^2/day was measured with a 20% bare ground reflectivity,
I think. A shallow reflecting pool on the south side of the shed would keep
vegetation from blocking the sun and bounce about 60% of the sun onto the 
shed when frozen, vs 20%, so we'd have 1.6/1.2 = a third more sun. 

In that case, T = (4/3x144K + 49K)/1382 = 174 F. Seems like a good idea...

For how many average sunless days can the shed stay warm? The attic has
a thermal conductance of 256ft^2/R10 = 25.6 with the shutters closed,
and the room need 10K Btu/day to keep it warm for 8 hours, and
when 1 pound of water cools 1 F, it releases 1 Btu, so...

Day  Twater  Qattic   Qhouse   Qtotal    DT = Utotal/4100

0    130 F   58K Btu  10K Btu  68K Btu   16.5 F
1    113.5   48K      10K      58K       14
2    99.5    39K      10K      49K       ...
3    87.5    32K      10K      42K
4    77.3    25K      10K      35K
5    68.7    ...

Not too bad, but let's try changing this around a bit, by hinging the
shutters along the upper edge of the 4' x 4' x 12' attic warmstore, instead
of along the upper edge of the windows. Then the room conductance becomes
about 32 + 48ft^2/R2 = 56, and it needs 8(66-36)56 = 13,440 Btu to stay at
66 F every day, and the attic conductance becomes 17.6 Btu/hr-F, so...

Day  Twater  Qattic   Qhouse     Qtotal     DT = Utotal/4100

0    130 F   40K Btu  13.4K Btu  53.4K Btu  13 F
1    117     34K      13.4K      48K        11.6
2    105.4   29K      13.4K      43K        ...
3    95      25K      13.4K      38K
4    85.6    21K      13.4K      34K
5    77.2    17K      13.4K      31K
6    69.7    ...

That's better. We could improve it more by pumping 0.2 gpm of 55 F water
through the roof pond to keep the roof at 46 F when the sun isn't shining. 
Or we could use R20 or R30 walls. 

In the summer, with some shadecloth over the south wall, the room might 
start out in the morning at 66 F, and the 4 12' walls would have a thermal
conductance of 480 ft^2/R10 = 48 Btu/hr-F. If the daytime high of 86 F
lasted 8 hours, the 4100 lb of water might absorb 8(86-66)48 = 7680 Btu, 
which would raise the water temp about 2 F. If it were 86 F for 24 hours,
the water temp would rise to 72. After a few days of this, we might want
to pump up some of that 55 F groundwater into the attic pond. Keeping the
room at 71 F would require (86-71)48 = 720 Btu/hour, ie 720/(71-55) = 45
pounds of water per hour, or about 0.1 gpm. 

The lower part of the shed south wall might look like this:

             view from inside               east view

                                               R10
      |      foil-faced foam      |        |   wall   |
      |                           |        |          |
      |---------------------------|  ---   |----------|
      |  air  |            | air  |        |/    .    <== cooler attic air  
      |  out  |            | out  |        |     .    .       
      |---------------------------|   |    |     /------------ceiling------
      |       |     air    |      |        |     s    warmer air to attic ==>
      |       |  to attic  |      |   |    |     s
      |        ------------       |        |     s     |
      |        vent area Av       |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     | R10 wall
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |       glazed area A       |   H    |<-G->s<-G->|
      |                           |        |     s     |      room
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |           |
      |                           |   |    |\        / |
       ---------------------------   ---    ---------------

This is a simple passive air heating system a la Norman Saunders, PE, or
Steve Baer, in which the sun shines through an outer layer of glazing, onto
a porous absorber surface, with an air gap of dimension G between the glazing
and the absorber, and another between the absorber and the wall. Cooler air
>from  the attic warmstore would be persuaded to flow  down  between the cold
glazing and the absorber, then  up  through the air gap between the absorber
and the wall. This is thermally more efficient than the typical system in
which the solar heated air is in contact with the cold outer glazing.

This R10 wall would have 2" of foil-faced foamboard behind a piece of dark-
painted plywood. No backdraft dampers are needed, because at night the cold
air forms a stagnant pool that just stays in the air heater pocket, since
cold air sinks. 

The width of gap G determines the airflow resistance, in part. Steve Baer
says G might be about H/15, eg 6" for an 8' high wall. Vent area Av might be
about 5% of the glazed area, eg 12' long x 6" tall for a 12' long x 8' tall
glazed wall. The absorber might be one or more layers of black aluminum window
screen, with an absorbing area up to 5 times the window area, large enough 
that most of the heat from the absorber is transferred to the flowing air, vs
having a small-area hot absorber that loses a lot of heat to the glazing by
radiation. One measure of success is glazing and absorber temperatures, the
lower the better. One way to measure these temps is to use an Exergen D501
scanning thermometer (about $1000.)

One way to look at the airflow is to blow some smoke into the collector. The 
useful heat output of the collector is proportional to the product of the
air velocity and the temperature difference between the input and output air.
Steve suggests that 50% solar collection efficiency is a good target.

If the air temp next to the glazing were 136 F on a winter day when it was
36 F outside, and 300 Btu/ft^2/hr arrived inside this shallow sunspace, the  
heat loss through one square foot of R1 glazing would be (136-36)1ft^2/R1
= 100 Btu/hour, and the solar collection efficiency would be 67%.

So... one might build solar houses like this, ie houses that heat themselves
with the sun, and make domestic hot water, with no other form of heat.

Nick

Some useful rules of thumb:

Q (cfm) = 16.6 Av sqrt(H delta T), for a chimney, in which
               Av is the smaller vent area in square feet,
	       H is the chimney height in feet, and
	       delta T is the input/output air temp difference (F).

U = 0.174E-8 Ac (T+460)^4  Btu per hour is re-radiated by an Ac ft^2 surface
               at temperature T (F).  

Full sun is about 300 Btu/ft^2/hour.

1 Btu will heat about 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:19 EDT 1996
Article: 895 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!torn!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: 6 Jun 1996 16:24:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4p7eqj$bct@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

midnite <midnite@algonet.se> wrote:

>Hi!

Hi...

>I am looking for the address to "Giordano Industries" in marseille in
>France. If you know it please let me know. The phonecompany can't find it.

Try writing the periodical "Systemes Solaires" at
                           8, rue de Richelieu
                           75001 Paris
                           FRANCE

Or call them at ;16 (1) 42.96.24.77, fax 16 (1) 42.96.26.43.

Nick



From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Thu Jun 13 23:14:20 EDT 1996
Article: 896 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: TMY2-Data
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 08:18:48 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <31B7C9C8.C29@dortmund.netsurf.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: portc4.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7321 alt.solar.thermal:896 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1354 alt.energy.renewable:15669

Does anybody know, how to read the data in the format TMY2.
I have some data, but can't do anything with them and I don't want to 
download the 6,5 MB documentation.

Thanks in advance
-- 
Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/



From stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:20 EDT 1996
Article: 897 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!stampke
From: stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Stuart R. Stampke)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Help a solar ignoramous please!
Date: 7 Jun 1996 04:03:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4p89lk$acp@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <833815305.16525.0@desiner.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

You might want to ask the questions in 
  alt.solar.photovoltaic     and
  alt.energy.renewable

Other possibilities:
a) The Florida Solar Energy Center.  I don't have a URL for them,
   an email:  sheinkopf@fsec.ucf.edu 
   this is to Ken Sheinkopf, their director of development.  FSEC is a 
   research institute associated with Florida's state university
   system.

b) CREST (Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology),
    a nonprofit goldmine of info.  
    Web pages starting with:  http://solstice.crest.org

And a couple of businesses, both on the Pacific Coast:

c) Alternative Energy Engineering (AEE),  Redway CA, with
   very good web pages at   http://www.nando.net/prof/eco/aee.html
   and an email  Rippner@northcoast.com

d)  Real Goods Trading Company, Ukiah/Hopland Ca 
    Web page:  http://www.well.com/www/realgood

Lot of other good places, but these few I know of.
The web pages listed will start a wonderful tour
of businesses, labs, and info sources.  Good Luck!

--- stuart

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Stuart Stampke             email:   stuart.stampke@csun.edu  |   
|                              or   stampke@alumni.caltech.edu  |  
 ---------------------------------------------------------------  
   Always build on high ground.


From rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:14:20 EDT 1996
Article: 898 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet
From: rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mike Davies")
Subject: Re: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Message-ID: <DsMD5z.K6o@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Compulink Information eXchange
X-Newsreader: PowWow
References: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:37:11 GMT
Lines: 3

i.e. on the tank ?

Mike


From pjm@nando.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:21 EDT 1996
Article: 899 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling - Ask Nick Pine
Date: 7 Jun 1996 21:47:23 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4pa805$m94_001@nando.net>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <4p5eto$mac_001@nando.net> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net> <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail1313.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7328 alt.energy.renewable:15684 alt.architecture.alternative:7196 sci.energy:50866 alt.solar.thermal:899

In article <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>,
   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
~~>Marc L O'Brien <mlobrien@fridgemech.win-uk.net> wrote:
~~>
~~>Ask Nick Pine? **I'm** not a Freon pumper! :-) 

~~>>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:
~~>
~~>>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
~~>>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
~~>>>the same term to describe ).
~~>
~~>Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)

	yeh, here 'tis - back that one up, buddy !  :-0

	How can you make such a statement without working within parameters
of load and delta ?  ( hint - you can't )

	Short cycle ( again, in the context of system usage, not failure
modes )is not a question of percent of running time vs total period, it
is rather the pattern of on/off cycles, and their relative time structures.

	Example #1- hot, hot day, leaky house, poor insulation:

		Unit runs 5 minutes, satisfies, calls again in 5 minutes,
runs 5 again, etc.  That _is_ short cycling, and yet run time is 50 % !

	Example # 2 - 80 degrees outside, dryish, evening

	Unit runs 5 minutes to acheive 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. 
Does not call again for an hour.  That is _not_ short cycling, but run 
time is <10 % !

	Example 2B - same as # 2 above, but set point is 70 - unit runs for
20 minutes, satisfies, and does not call again for until the next afternoon
( seeing as evening has continued to fall, and the temperatures to drop ).
Run time for that period is %trivial, but it is _not_ short cycling !  :-)

	I repeat : There is no quantifiable time period that defines
'short cycling' in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure 
mode contexts we use the same term to describe ).

	Your statement regarding 'nonsense' will taste better with a little
salt, my friend !  :-)

Paul

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/index.html


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:21 EDT 1996
Article: 900 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling
Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4pbne6$odv@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net> <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4pa805$m94_001@nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7338 alt.energy.renewable:15699 alt.architecture.alternative:7198 sci.energy:50875 alt.solar.thermal:900

My short cycling guru friend paul milligan <pjm@nando.net> wrote:
>   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>~>>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:

>~>>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
>~>>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
>~>>>the same term to describe ).

>~~>Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)
 
>	How can you make such a statement without working within parameters
>of load and delta ?  ( hint - you can't )

Oops :-)

>	Short cycle ( again, in the context of system usage, not failure
>modes )is not a question of percent of running time vs total period, it
>is rather the pattern of on/off cycles, and their relative time structures.

Hmmm.

>	Example #1- hot, hot day, leaky house, poor insulation:
 
>		Unit runs 5 minutes, satisfies, calls again in 5 minutes,
>runs 5 again, etc.  That _is_ short cycling, and yet run time is 50 % !
 
>	Example # 2 - 80 degrees outside, dryish, evening
 
>	Unit runs 5 minutes to acheive 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. 
>Does not call again for an hour.  That is _not_ short cycling, but run 
>time is <10 % !

Good examples. Perhaps we should say "short cycling is a condition in which
an AC cycles more than 6 times per hour." Or "short cycling is a bicycle trip
of less than 3 miles."

Here are some more examples:

        Example # 3A - 80 degrees outside, 5K Btu AC in an 8' cubical room
at 80 F inside, with 6" concrete walls with a heat capacity of 22 Btu/F-ft^3,
surrounded by 2" of polystyrene foam with an R-value of 10. The walls have
a thermal mass of 8x8x6x6/12x22 = 4224 Btu/F, so the unit runs for 3x4224/5K
= 2.5 hours to achieve 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. The room with a time
constant of RC = R10/(64x6)x4224 = 110 hours takes t hours to warm to 79 F
where 79 = 80 + (77-80)exp(-t/110) ==> t = -110 ln((80-79)/(80-77)) = 154 hr, 
ie 6 days, then the AC comes on again and cools it to 77 F in 2x4224/5K =
1.7 hours, and so on. Is that short cycling?

        Example # 3B - 80 degrees outside, 5K Btu AC in an 8' cubical room 
at 80 F inside, with 2" polystyrene R10 foam walls with a heat capacity of
0.5 Btu/F-ft^3, surrounded by 6" low-thermal-resistance concrete walls. The
inside walls have a thermal mass of 8x8x6x2/12x0.5 = 32 Btu/F, so the unit
runs for 3x32/5K = 0.0192 hours or 1.15 minutes to achieve 77 inside, shuts
off, the room with a time constant of RC = R10/(64x6)x32 = 0.83 hours takes
-0.83 ln(-1/3) = 1.16 hours to warm to 79 F, the AC comes on again and cools
it to 77 F in 2x32x60/5K = 0.77 minutes, and so on. Is that short cycling? 
 
        Example # 4A - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, 8' cubical room with 6" concrete walls on the inside,
initially 77 F, surrounded by R10 foam. Phila owner takes AC to junkyard, gets
1 cent/pound, and buys a $5 100 Watt window fan at a garage sale. During the
night with the fan on, the concrete walls have a surface air film thermal
conductance of about 2 Btu/hr-F, so the room has an RC time constant of about
1/2/(64*6)x4224 = 5.5 hours. During the day, buttoned up, the room temp rises
to T(8) = 86 + (77-86)exp(-8/110) = 77.6 F, and during every night the owner
turns on the fan for t hours, where 77 = 67 + (77.6-67)exp(-t/5.5), so
t = -5.5 ln((77-67)/(77.6-67)) = 2.14 hr, and so on. Is that short cycling? 

        Example # 4B - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, 8' cubical room with 6" concrete walls on the inside,
initially 77 F, surrounded by R10 foam. Wise Phila owner removes three piece
suit, dons shorts and T-shirt, sells fan and lives in 77.6 F room during the
day, 76.4 F room at night. 

        Example # 5A - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, Phila owner and loony brother build stone house with
13 million pounds of rocks, including rocks for the roof (see recent Mother
Earth News) and foam the outside with 4" of urethane. RC = 20,800 hours, so
if the house starts out one summer morning at 65 F, by the end of an 86 F
day, the indoor temperature rises to T(8) = 86 + (65-86)exp(-8/20,800)
= 65.00692 F. 

        Example # 5B - From June through August in Philadelphia, when the
average outdoor temp is 74.7 F, the indoor temperature in this house with
a 29 month time constant rises to about 74.7 + (65-74.7)exp(-3/29) = 66 F,
while the brothers open their house sometimes at night to their low-thermal-
mass sunspace with its solar-dried dessicant floor to remove some humidity,
while venting the hot sunspace to the outside on sunny days. A layer of
wood chips or vermiculite or crushed stone or a thin layer of concrete over
foam might work as a dessicant floor...

        Example # 5C - September arrives, with an average daytime high
temperature of 77.6 F, and the owners get ready for winter in this house
with 3,000 ft^2 of walls with 2 million Btu/F of thermal mass with an indoor
surface thermal conductance of about 2 Btu/F, ie an indoor time constant of
1/2/3,000x2 million = 333 hours or 2 weeks, by opening the windows for t
hours during the later part of the month, to raise the house temperature
to 73 F, where 73 =  77.6 - (77.6-66)exp(-t/333), so t = -333 ln(0.39)
= 308 hours or 12.8 days.

        Example # 5D - Winter arrives, with about 6,000 heating degree days,
at a 70 F base temperature, and the house loses 24x6,000x3,000/R30 = 14
million Btu, and cools from 73 to 67 F. The average daily min temps in May
and June are 53 and 62. The brothers open the house up on 10 cool nights in
early spring to allow it to cool to 65 F, and the summer begins again.

        Example # 5E - Loony brothers wear sweaters in winter, T-shirts
in summer, and leave the south-facing windows closed all year :-) 

Nick

PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
the local newspaper, The Collegeville Independent, "Neutral on Nothing--
Accept and defend the truth, whatever the source!" so they could see how their
comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red south wall
with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. They are worried about
the building inspector, so they are thinking of stenciling it with big red 
letters saying "Vietnam--1964-1973," to exempt it from the building code as
self-expression (their publisher's a lawyer :-) They might add "Desert Storm--
1990-1991," in red poster paint, so it will bleed in the rain. 



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:22 EDT 1996
Article: 901 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Combined Solar water + PV panel
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 06:44:01 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31BAAAF1.516@patriot.net>
References: <4oetvp$npe@news.knoware.nl> <31ABB623.7053@patriot.net> <4ogjj8$dg5@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4oh3pg$jdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31B6C43C.3A55@cimatron.co.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15714 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1361 alt.solar.thermal:901

I am forwarding your question to alt.solar.photovoltaic and alt.solar.thermal

joshua@cimatron.co.il wrote:
> 
> I've been following the posts on this topic. It sounds like a great way
> for me to exploit the local familiarity with solar water panels to
> incorporate some more esoteric (at least locally) technology.
> 
> But your comments on heat affecting PV cell performance has me worried. I
> live in Israel and it gets pretty hot in direct summer sun. On the other
> hand, we have roadside payphones with PV panels on the pole, so there has
> to be a way.
> 
> Where can I get more info? I'm a mechanical engineer, BTW (no guarantee
> of brains, but I've already chewed through large sections of the ASHRAE
> handbooks at my previous job).
> 
> Thanks!
> Joshua

Will Stewart


From schober@zugernet.ch Thu Jun 13 23:14:22 EDT 1996
Article: 902 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!dino.active.ch!usenet
From: Robert Schober <schober@zugernet.ch>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: thermomax solar tubes
Date: 9 Jun 1996 10:52:22 GMT
Organization: Solaroffice Imp. & Exp. CH- 8914 Aeugst a.A
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4pead6$qvi@dino.active.ch>
References: <4p5l87$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp11.zugernet.ch
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: scamp@cadvision.com

Yes, send me the pricelist and the documentation
to schober@zugernet.ch

or by snake post to Robert Schober
Ruchacherstrasse
CH- 8914 Aeugst a,Albis
Switzerland



From chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:14:22 EDT 1996
Article: 903 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!wirrleac.demon.co.uk!chris
From: Chris Laughton <chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 14:25:16 +0100
Organization: The Solar Design Company
Lines: 135
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Ftt58VA8CtuxEwf0@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
References: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.11 <Exv1BnBeD4CIkLENnbM34v5HPf>

In article <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "\"Mike Davies\""
<rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes

>Thermomax Solar Panels & the TMX300 controller.
>
>Has anyone got one of these working OK ?

I've fitted about ten systems here in the UK, and all now work good
although I am critical of the manufacturer's suggested layout which is
designed for ease of selling and installation rather than optimum
performance. The collector tubes themselves are high effeciency but it
is important to  optimize of the rest of the system plumbing, control
and integration with the auxillary heating  or else you may as well just
fit cheaper flat-plate collectors.

I find good quality research on these matters hard to find although I am
aware of a few projects in Europe but no hard results yet. To do it
myself would be expensive and time consuming so much of my conclusions
(below) are reasoned rather than scientific. 

 You don't say what type or size of store you are using (one vertical
copper twin coil cylinder ?), the surface area and position of the solar
coil, thickness/ U-value of cylinder insualtion, length of flow and
return pipes and quality of pipe insulation, flow rate (pump type and
speed setting), sealed system or open vented (presumambly sealed ?),
depth of insertion of tank sensor and glycol/water ratio  all of which
are relevant. 

>
>A few weeks ago I moved the pump and non-return valve to the hot side 
>of the hot water tank, and in the process discovered the non-return 
>valve was duff, so replaced it, and now overnight we only loose 2 or 3 
>deg C. :-)
>
A faulty check valve is not an unusual problem. I am not sure what you
mean by 'hot side' but I presume you mean the pump and check valve were
on the return, now they are on the solar primary flow pipe.  I prefer
both items on the return where it is cooler, allows air bubbles to
escape easier and fascillitates draining down.


>The problem now is that we seem to loose a fair bit of temp at the end 
>of the day, say between 5pm & nightfall. :-(
>
>At the end of a typical day, with the sun coming off the panels, a 
>typical set of readings is Collector 63C, Tank 58C, Return 54C.

Yes, typical figures. It would be interesting to use the tank sensor
temporarily on the flow pipe just before it enters the store which will
let me know what pipe losses you have and the performance of the solar
coil. I have had to replace a sensor once because it read 10 C. less
than the other two when all put in a container of hot water ! Lesson
here was, never trust the sensors.


>We have the controller set so that the collector must be above 40C to 
>switch on, also the difference between the Collector & the Return (DT) 
>must be > 8C.
I use 35C as default but suggest 30|C in winter if pipe losses are low
and you have a high performance solar coil. It is a toss up between pipe
losses and parasitic electric pump losses. Cold water comes in, at say
10C, so if you've got a roof manifold full of +20C worth of heat it got
to be worth 2 minutes of pump energy to bring it down or else a cloud
may come and you've lost it for good. Thermomax say that this low
threshold is a result of their experience, which is a bit evasive. Other
controller manufacturers such as  the German Resol don't have such a
feature but use plenty of other tricks to pull down more heat. If you
were cynical you may suggest that this low threshold simply makes the
finished system appear to work better, to the uninitiated, because the
pipes get hotter when the pump is on in the morning.
 Your Delta T of 8C is  large, I usually use 5C as default for similar
reasoning as above.. 

>
>With the return sensor on the return pipe (as it was installed) a 
>typical set of readings through the evening would be
>
>Time      17:30  18:00  19:00  19:30  20:00  20:30  21:30  23:00
>Collector    63     63     60     54     52     49     45     26
>Tank         58     57     56     54     52     50     47     46
>Return       54     54     52     46     45     43     38     25
>
>As you can see, we have effectively lost 11C in just the 4 hours up to 
>21:30, and then it all seems to stabilise, with virtually no more heat 
>loss overnight.

All in all, not too bad. Temperatures may flucuate on the tank sensor
due to stratification and eddy currents in the cylinder. You are likley
to be getting losses up the DHW vent pipe if it is not insulated. This
can also be prevented by Teeing the DHW draw-off immediatley at the
cylinder top, keeping the vent just above horizontal for as long as
possible in the airing cupoard before  before going true vertical to the
CWS tank in the loft. Similar story for the Rayburn primary vent and
cold feed if they are located in the cylinder cupboard ( and you have a
twin coil cylinder). Don't forget the solar primaries can only 'steal'
heat from the lowest and coolest part of the store. Also heat losses are
greater at higher temperatures. What is your exterior and internal air
temperatures over these times ? Possible closing of windows near
cylinder later at night ? I would plump for improving insulation at top
of cylinder. The decay of the return sensor does seem a bit slow however
>
>Has anyone any suggestions as to what can be happening here ? It can't 
>be convection currents. I've knocked that on the head, so the pump must 
>be switching on and extracting heat like it used to overnight. For the 
>pump to switch on, Collector must be above 40C & DT must be > 8C, so 
>either the return is cooling quicker than the collector, or, what ?
>
You may be getting one-pipe thermosyphoning up to the solar return pipe
but unlikley as the return should be at the lowest/coolest point in the
cylinder and this pipe only needs to be 15 mm.. Is the return sensor
well insualted ?  As your return sensor is in a pipe with low thermal
mass,  I would expect a rapid decay compared to the collector for the
same ambient temperature. This I consider a flaw in the normal running
of the system. The return should represent the ability of the solar coil
to transfer heat to the secondary water hence the return sensor should
be inserted about halfway up the hight of the solar coil, actually
immersed in the secondary water, close to but not touching the coil
itself. The Thermomax method can promote short cycling during hot
weather. 

>We are using it for domestic hot water. In the winter we use a coal 
>fired stove which also does the radiators. In the summer we use the 
>sun.
As an aside, it is usually possible to temporary increase Rayburn heated
storage by a mid position valve, controlled by an adjustable pipe stat (
although not with a solar sealed system)  which is useful if you are
doing a lot of cooking in winter and require extra hot water.

-- 
Chris Laughton   Tel/Fax 0151 606 0207   The Solar Design Company
57 Wood Lane, Greasby, Wirral, L49 2PU.  






From svsaga@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:23 EDT 1996
Article: 904 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: "M. J. Clark" <svsaga@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 13:39:57 -0700
Organization: SV Saga
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31BB369D.1A69@ix.netcom.com>
References: <morris.277.00254881@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: stp-fl6-09.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 12:36:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win16; I)
To: Mike Morris <morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107480 alt.energy.renewable:15721 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1362 alt.solar.thermal:904 sci.energy:50913

Mike Morris wrote:

  snip

> I currently scan misc.consumers.house, alt.energy.renewable,
> alt.solar.{photovoltaic thermal}, comp.home.{automation misc}
> misc.consumers.{house frugal-living},sci.energy, sci.engineering.heat-vent-ac,
> sci.electronics, sci.electronics.{repair equipment}, and I see
> ocasional postings that pertains to the concerns expressed above. But it's too
> musch to expect everyone to scan all of those groups all the time.

  snip

For what its worth, rec.boats and rec.boats.cruising carry occasional
threads concerning wind generators and photo-voltaics.  Both are quite common
on cruising sailboats.  There are frequent threads on deep cycle batteries,
battery charging, and inverters.

Regards

Malcolm Clark
aboard SV Saga
on Tampa Bay


From nomad29@aol.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:23 EDT 1996
Article: 905 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: nomad29@aol.com (NOMAD29)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: 9 Jun 1996 22:31:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: nomad29@aol.com (NOMAD29)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
for the project.  any ideas??

Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
house.  Any feelings pro or con??

The settleing NOMAD


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:23 EDT 1996
Article: 906 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: 11 Jun 1996 07:08:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:906 alt.energy.renewable:15745 sci.energy:51000 alt.architecture.alternative:7208

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>NOMAD29 wrote:
>> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> for the project.  any ideas??

It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.

>> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
>> house.  Any feelings pro or con??

Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

>I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with 
>DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
>build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
>photovoltaics.

Sounds good...

>See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house) is fairly
expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a separate solar
water heating system. It gets off the mark in a house race, but quickly tires
in the backstretch, in partly cloudy climates, vs houses built with exactly
the same materials, or less expensive materials, in a different configuration.

>A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering, Inc at 508.677.3533.
>The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.

You might ask Lyle for the isolated gain, isolated store model :-)
 
Nick

They're off!

               Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
               gain,         gain,         gain and      store
Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
 
 0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
 1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625  
 2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358 
 3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387 
 4             70            70            70            83.32878 
 5             70            70            70            91.93831 
 6             70            70            70            100.2529 
 7             70            70            70            108.2827 
 8             70            70            70            116.0375 
 9             70            70            70            123.5266 
 10            70            70            70            130.7591 
 11            70            70            70            137.7439 
 12            70            70            70            144.4895 
 13            70            70            70            151.004 
 14            70            70            70            157.2953 
turn off the sun...
 15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516 
 16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111 
 17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719 
 18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329 
 19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925 
 20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493 
 21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402 
 22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491 
 23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922 
 24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111 
 25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339 
 26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479 
 27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054 
 28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976 
 29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326 
 30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962 

10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
80 PRINT#,
90 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated"
100 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
110 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
120 PRINT#1,
130 'warmup over a long string of average Phila December days
140 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
150 RWALL=13'US R-value of walls
160 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
170 TA=36'average outdoor December temp in Phila (F)
180 SUNIN = 8*8*1000'average daily solar input (Btu)
190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures
195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather
240 E2=6*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
250 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
260 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
270 E3=6*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
275 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
280 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
285 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
290 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
295 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
310 NEXT DAY
340 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
345 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
346 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
350 FOR DAY=15 TO 30'simulate two weeks of cloudy days
360 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
370 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
380 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70
390 E2=0*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
400 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
410 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
430 E3=0*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
440 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
450 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
455 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
460 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212
470 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
480 NEXT DAY
500 CLOSE



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:24 EDT 1996
Article: 907 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 05:10:38 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-26.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

NOMAD29 wrote:
> 
> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> for the project.  any ideas??
> 
> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> 
> The settleing NOMAD

I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with 
DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
photovoltaics.

See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.  A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering, 
Inc at 508.677.3533.  The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com Thu Jun 13 23:14:24 EDT 1996
Article: 908 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!watnews2!meir
From: meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com (Meir Laker)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: 11 Jun 96 17:42:58
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fiasco.watson.ibm.com
In-reply-to: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu's message of 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7376 alt.energy.renewable:15755 alt.architecture.alternative:7210 sci.energy:51039 alt.solar.thermal:908

   From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
   Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
   
   PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
   the local newspaper, . . .  so they could see how their
   comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red south wall
   with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 

Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?

--
Meir Laker 

IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center      
P.O. Box 218, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598    
Phone: 914-945-2699  
Tieline: 862-2699

meir@watson.ibm.com




From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:25 EDT 1996
Article: 909 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!lamont.ldeo.columbia.edu!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!cbgw1.att.com!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:34:49 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-19.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:909 alt.energy.renewable:15757 sci.energy:51042 alt.architecture.alternative:7211

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >NOMAD29 wrote:
> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> >> for the project.  any ideas??
> 
> It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.
> 
> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> 
> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.

> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> >DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
> >build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
> >photovoltaics.
> 
> Sounds good...
> 
> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
> 
> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)

It is not a Trombe wall house.

> is fairly
> expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a separate solar
> water heating system.

You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...

Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.

>                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
> Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
> 
>  0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
>  1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625
>  2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358
>  3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387
>  4             70            70            70            83.32878
>  5             70            70            70            91.93831
>  6             70            70            70            100.2529
>  7             70            70            70            108.2827
>  8             70            70            70            116.0375
>  9             70            70            70            123.5266
>  10            70            70            70            130.7591
>  11            70            70            70            137.7439
>  12            70            70            70            144.4895
>  13            70            70            70            151.004
>  14            70            70            70            157.2953
> turn off the sun...
>  15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516
>  16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111
>  17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719
>  18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329
>  19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925
>  20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493
>  21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402
>  22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491
>  23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922
>  24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111
>  25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339
>  26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479
>  27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054
>  28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976
>  29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326
>  30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962
> 
> 10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
> 20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.

R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.
The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

> 30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
> 40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
> 50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
> 60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
> 70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
> 80 PRINT#,
> 90 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated"
> 100 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
> 110 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
> 120 PRINT#1,
> 130 'warmup over a long string of average Phila December days
> 140 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
> 150 RWALL=13'US R-value of walls
> 160 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
> 170 TA=36'average outdoor December temp in Phila (F)
> 180 SUNIN = 8*8*1000'average daily solar input (Btu)
> 190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures
> 195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
> 200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
> 205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this,
Nick?  The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the
room.  This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
fireplance.  Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
heat input?

Have you no shame?

> 240 E2=6*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 250 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
> 260 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
More bogus rules.

> 270 E3=6*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
> 275 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
> 280 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
> 285 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
> 290 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
> 295 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
> 310 NEXT DAY
> 340 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
> 345 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
> 346 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
> 350 FOR DAY=15 TO 30'simulate two weeks of cloudy days
> 360 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 370 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
> 380 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More bogus rules.
 
> 390 E2=0*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 400 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
> 410 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More number cooking

> 430 E3=0*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
> 440 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
> 450 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
> 455 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
> 460 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212
> 470 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
> 480 NEXT DAY
> 500 CLOSE

Back to the drawing board yet again, Nick.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:25 EDT 1996
Article: 910 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!osshe.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: 12 Jun 1996 00:28:23 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4plh17$rs9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7385 alt.energy.renewable:15762 alt.architecture.alternative:7212 sci.energy:51055 alt.solar.thermal:910

Meir Laker <meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com> wrote:
    
> PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
> the local newspaper... so they could see how their comfort and AC bills
> change when they hang it over their barn red south wall with R11 insulation
> and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 
 
>Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
>keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?
 
Yes, but that black is what I happened to have around... And they plan to put
some transparent polycarbonate siding over their shadecloth in the fall, to
make a huge inexpensive solar air heater. For that, a dark color is better.

For summer shading, black is cool, as long as there is an air gap behind it
and at the top. They would like red, eventually. Shadecloth comes in black,
red, green, gunmetal gray, white, aluminized, sandlewood, etc. Home Depot
sells a nice ~100% black furry polypropylene shadecloth ("landscape fabric") 
that is still fairly porous to air, made by DeWitt (800) 888-9609, for $78
for a 4' wide x 250' long roll, with no hems or grommets, but it would not
let much light in through windows, unlike 80%, which looks like a window
screen from the inside, or makes a moire pattern if there is already a
window screen in place..

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:25 EDT 1996
Article: 911 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: A house race
Date: 12 Jun 1996 01:39:12 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:911 alt.energy.renewable:15763 sci.energy:51063 alt.architecture.alternative:7213

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >NOMAD29 wrote:
>> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> >> for the project.  any ideas??
>> 
>> It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.

Or a physicist...

>> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
>> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
>> 
>> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)
>
>A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.

Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?
 
>> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
>> >DOE...

>> Sounds good...

Did you say DOE? :-)

>> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
>> 
>> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
>
>It is not a Trombe wall house.

It's essentially a Trombe wall house, from a thermal point of view.
Direct gain, storage at close to room temp, ritual night insulation...
This has been around since 1881, with variations. It's time to do it better.

>> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
>> separate solar water heating system.
 
>You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
>ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...
 
Norman Saunders, PE, Howard Reichmuth, PE, William Shurcliff, PhD,
William Beckman, PhD, John Duffie, PhD, and Steve Baer make a lot of
sense to me. I've talked with them all. Norman and Steve are American
Solar Energy Society Passive Solar Pioneers, and I've spent a few days 
talking over solar closets with each of them in person. I had the good
fortune to drive Norman from Boston to Lewiston, Maine in February, for 
the Maine Solar Energy Association's Sustainable Building Conference,
where Norman was one of the speakers at the session I moderated on
passive heating and cooling techniques. Norman is amazing. He's 80 years
old now, and he got into solar heating in 1944. At the moment, he's
helping design solar houses in Pennsylvania, California, and the UK.
Of course, he's no Will Stewart :-)

>Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
>his thesis statements.

Your CS degree is showing... :-) How many 3rd graders can understand C?
How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?

>Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end up at 70 F.

This is the magic of temperature control by ventilation in the winter...
In houses with thermal stores with  no  insulation between the heat store
and the living space, like yours, you have to live inside the heat store.
So, during sunny weather, if you want to store heat for more cloudy days,
you have to live in a warmer house. How warm a house can you tolerate?
These houses work better if you are willing to let their indoor temps rise
to a high value in sunny times, and walk around in T-shirts and shorts in 
December. I picked 70 F as the upper limit for this sunny day house temp
limit. Perhaps I should have picked 80 F. Are you willing to live in a
house that is 80 F in December? The results don't change much.

>The answer is buried in the 'code'.

Not all that buried...  Compare this to some inscrutable C constructs:

>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather

>>                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>>                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
>> Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
>> 
>>  0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
>>  1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625
>>  2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358
>>  3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387
>>  4             70            70            70            83.32878
>>  5             70            70            70            91.93831
...

>>  13            70            70            70            151.004
>>  14            70            70            70            157.2953
>> turn off the sun...
>>  15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516
>>  16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111
>>  17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719
>>  18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329
>>  19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925
>>  20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493
>>  21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402
>>  22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491
>>  23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922
>>  24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111
>>  25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339
>>  26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479
>>  27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054
>>  28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976
>>  29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326
>>  30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962
                      ^             ^                          ^
These are simple exponential decays |         So is this ------       
      well-known in heatflow                  But who cares, until it
                                              cools to 70 F?

>> 10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
>> 20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
>
>R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.

I suppose your house will be larger than an 8' cube too. This was just
an example of how the same materials can be arranged well or not so well,
>from  a solar performance point of view.

>The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

True. That's house 2 above, if you cripple it slightly more.

>> 30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
>> 40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
>> 50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
>> 60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
>> 70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
...

>> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
>> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?

That's my guess at how warm a house somebody might tolerate in sunny
winter weather. What's your limit, Will? Another issue for direct gain
houses is privacy, as Kurt Smith of Avis mentions. Or lack thereof, and
the interaction with house temperatures. One can only take off so much
clothing, with all those windows, especially near Washington, DC.

>The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room. 

A few degrees above, for a few minutes... Recall the half-hour time constant
for these water walls. We have discussed that before, but you didn't seem
to be listening. You are in a difficult psychological posture. Try this:
T(t) = 70 + (80-70)exp(-t/30), where t is in minutes.

>This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
>fireplance.

I understand such fireplances, but what do they have to do with solar heating?

>Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
>heat input?

Is this a metaphysical or a physical question? The heat goes in one side
of those (opaque, window blocking?) water walls and out both sides, almost
immediately, heating the room air. This is similar to a person for whom 
ideas go in one ear and out the other. Mark Twain said perhaps such a person
should take out his brain and dance on it, to soften it up.
 
>Have you no shame?

I tell the truth, as I see it.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:26 EDT 1996
Article: 912 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:16:28 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7386 alt.solar.thermal:912 alt.energy.renewable:15764 sci.energy:51070 alt.architecture.alternative:7214

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >NOMAD29 wrote:
>> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> >> for the project.  any ideas??
 
>> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

>> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
>> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
>> separate solar water heating system.
 
>R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.

OK. Let's change them all to R24.

I suppose your house will be larger than an 8' cube too. This was just
an example of how the same materials can be arranged well or not so well,
>from  a solar performance point of view.

>The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

True. That's house 2, if you cripple it slightly more.

>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?

>What's your limit, Will?

Let's use 80 F as a house upper temp limit, disguised below as:

205 TU=80'upper temp limit for wall store houses (F)

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
>wstewart@patriot.net wrote:

>| Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
>| his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
>| up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.
>| 
>| >                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>| >                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
>| > Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
>
>Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
>least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. The 70 degree limit
>would then be regulated by the homeowner who opens a window or closes a
>vent (or has some automatic (magic?) mechanism do this) so that the temp
>doesn't exceed 70.

Right. Or 80 F now, as below. BTW, a nice way to do winter ventilation
for a house might be to move open a hinged piece of foil-faced foamboard
with a $50 Honeywell damper actuator that uses 2 Watts when it is moving,
and 0 Watts when in a fixed position, connected to a cooling thermostat.
A less accurate and leakier way might be to use an automatic foundation vent
with some aluminum louvers that move with a bimetallic spring, such as
Leslie-Locke's FV-1B, which Home Depot sells for $11.83. Drill a hole in
the aluminum bracket covering the spiral spring and adjust the spring mount
with a screwdriver so the vent is open at 80 F, and mount it inside-out,
so the spring is exposed to house air.

>If the house gets above 70, that would be nice for those who like it hot,
>I guess, and would make the house cool down to an unacceptable temp more
>slowly, but probably wouldn't be desirable for most people.

Agreed. Here's the race again, with some NREL numbers for Providence, RI...

They're off!

               Direct        Isolated      Isolated     Isolated
               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store
Day            store         store         store        temp
 
 0             33.8 F        33.8 F        33.8 F        33.8 F
 1             44.7025       44.7025       44.7025       44.7025 
 2   House 1   53.4434       54.97771      55.51239      55.51239 
 3   is a      59.8625       63.8481       65.32996      65.32996 
 4             64.57653      71.50574      70            74.24631 
 5   s         68.03838      78.11644      70 House 3    82.60956 
 6   l         70.58069      80            70 is always  90.72779 
 7   o         72.4477       80 The        70 the same.  98.60819 
 8   w         73.81877      80 ritual     70 A good     106.2577 
 9             74.82566      80 thermal    70 house for  113.6831 
 10  starter.  75.5651       80 curtains   70 reptiles?  120.891 
 11            76.10812      80 help       70            127.8877 
 12            76.5069       80 house      70            134.6794 
 13            76.79975      80 2.         70            141.2722 
 14            77.01482      80            70            147.6718 

House 1 one never quite makes it to 80 F, in 2 weeks of average December
weather. I would say house 2 is too hot, but chacun a son chaleur...
BTW, these are max temps for houses 1 and 2. They will be cooler at night,
vs house 3, which could be cooler at night, if it had a setback thermostat.

House 2 now has a fairly respectable RC time constant of 256 hours, and its
performance is not bad... House 1 is much poorer, with about 45 hours.
Will's Avis house might be about 53 hours, including the water walls,
with all the curtains drawn 24 hour a day, IF they work perfectly. 
How much do they cost, Will? And how do air leaks affect them?

Now let's turn off the sun again...

 15            65.27026      75.575        70            143.5775 
 16            56.64535<--   71.56485      70            139.5151 
 17  Houses    50.31143      67.93063      70   Look     135.4845 
 18  1 and 2   45.65995 too  64.63714      70   how      131.4854 
 19  get cold  42.24403 cold 61.65241      70   nicely   127.5176 
 20  very      39.73546      58.94749      70   house 3  123.5807 
 21  quickly   37.89323  --> 56.49616      70   rides    119.6746 
 22  since     36.54034      54.27465      70   out      115.799 
 23  their     35.54681      52.2614       70   almost   111.9537 
 24  thermal   34.81719      50.4369       70   3 weeks  108.1385 
 25  mass      34.28137      48.78343      70   of       104.353 
 26  was       33.88788      47.28499      70   cloudy   100.5971 
 27  never     33.59892      45.92702      70   weather  96.87059 
 28  very      33.3867       44.69636      70   tra la   93.17316 
 29  warm...   33.23086      43.58108      70   tra la   89.50462 
 30  And       33.11641      42.57035      70   ...      85.86474 
 31  house 1   33.03237      41.65438      70   :-)      82.25331 
 32  has that  32.97064      40.82428      70            78.67008 
 33  B I G     32.92532      40.072        70            75.11484 
 34  bare      32.89203      39.39025      70            71.58738 
 35  window.   32.86759      38.77242      68.08748      68.08748 

Looks like house 3 finishes 19 days ahead of the nearest contender,
if you call 68 F and 80 F comfortable interior temperatures.

10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
20 '  R24 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
70 PRINT#1,
80 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
100 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated     Isolated"
110 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
120 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
130 PRINT#1,
140 'warmup over a long string of average December days
150 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
160 RWALL=24'US R-value of walls
170 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)
190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)
200 TM1=TA:TM2=TA:TM3=TA'initialize thermal mass temperatures
205 TU=80'upper temp limit for wall store houses (F)
210 TLIM=TA'initialize limiting temp for isolated store house
220 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
240 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
250 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'calculate new thermal mass temp
260 IF TM1>TU THEN TM1=TU'ventilate house to limit indoor temp
270 E2=6*(TM2-TA)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-TA)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-TA)*5*64/RWALL
280 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
290 IF TM2>TU THEN TM2=TU
300 E3=6*(TM3-TLIM)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-TA)*32/RWALL'south wall loss
310 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-TA)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
320 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
330 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
340 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
350 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
370 NEXT DAY
380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
390 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
400 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
410 FOR DAY=15 TO 35'simulate three weeks of cloudy days
430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
440 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
450 E2=0*(TM2-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-TA)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-TA)*5*64/RWALL
460 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
470 E3=0*(TM3-TLIM)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-TA)*32/RWALL'south wall loss
480 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-TA)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
490 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
500 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
520 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
540 NEXT DAY
550 CLOSE
 
Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:26 EDT 1996
Article: 913 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Nick, Nick, Nick
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:19:09 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 174
Message-ID: <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-5.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:913 alt.energy.renewable:15782 sci.energy:51105 alt.architecture.alternative:7219

[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time.  Nick wanders away and
we have to gently lead back to his cell^h^h^h^h room]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >Nick Pine wrote:

> >> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> >> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??

> >> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

> >A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.
 
> Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
> sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
> merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
> more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?

So sailboats with motors are no longer sailboats?  I have to admit, you continue
to amaze me...  Bought any 12 watt rabbits, lately?

> >> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> >> >DOE...
> 
> >> Sounds good...
> 
> Did you say DOE? :-)

Are you hard of hearing?
 
> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

A publication of the American Solar Engineering Society.

> >> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
> >
> >It is not a Trombe wall house.
> 
> It's essentially a Trombe wall house, from a thermal point of view.
> Direct gain, storage at close to room temp,

By what measure?  Feel free to invent things right off the top of your head.

> ritual night insulation...
> This has been around since 1881, with variations. It's time to do it better.

Go do so.

> >> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
> >> separate solar water heating system.
> 
> >You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
> >ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...
> 
> Norman Saunders, PE, Howard Reichmuth, PE, William Shurcliff, PhD,
> William Beckman, PhD, John Duffie, PhD, and Steve Baer make a lot of
> sense to me.

I'll let them speak for themselves.  And a PE or PhD doesn't make a person a 
god, merely respectable, so stop worshipping.

> I've talked with them all. 

That doesn't make you a god, either.

> >Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
> >his thesis statements.
> 
> Your CS degree is showing... :-) How many 3rd graders can understand C?

Earth to Nick...

> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?

Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.

> >Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end up at 70 F.
 
> This is the magic of temperature control by ventilation in the winter...
> In houses with thermal stores with  no  insulation between the heat store
> and the living space, like yours, you have to live inside the heat store.
> So, during sunny weather, if you want to store heat for more cloudy days,
> you have to live in a warmer house. How warm a house can you tolerate?
> These houses work better if you are willing to let their indoor temps rise
> to a high value in sunny times, and walk around in T-shirts and shorts in
> December. I picked 70 F as the upper limit for this sunny day house temp
> limit. Perhaps I should have picked 80 F. Are you willing to live in a
> house that is 80 F in December? The results don't change much.

Not that your code can be trusted anyway.
 
> >The answer is buried in the 'code'.
> 
> Not all that buried...  Compare this to some inscrutable C constructs:
> 
> >> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather

You make this assertion but fail to support it.
 
> >> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> >> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
> >> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> >I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?
> 
> That's my guess at how warm a house somebody might tolerate in sunny
> winter weather. What's your limit, Will? Another issue for direct gain
> houses is privacy, as Kurt Smith of Avis mentions. Or lack thereof, and
> the interaction with house temperatures. One can only take off so much
> clothing, with all those windows, especially near Washington, DC.

I wasn't planning on going nude where neighbors could see me.  The lots I'm
looking at are all over 5 acres.

You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection.  Do you understand how
to calculate convection?
 
> >The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room.
> 
> A few degrees above, for a few minutes... Recall the half-hour time constant
> for these water walls. We have discussed that before, but you didn't seem
> to be listening. 

You failed to supply a reasonable calculation.  A little bit of knowledge is
a dangerous thing.  Perhaps you should start another quiz so that you can 
pick up a few more formulas>.

>You are in a difficult psychological posture.

Quack, heal thyself.

> Try this:
> T(t) = 70 + (80-70)exp(-t/30), where t is in minutes.
> 
> >This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
> >fireplance.
> 
> I understand such fireplances, but what do they have to do with solar heating?

Thermal mass, silly.  Do you think they are right at room temperature?
How do you think they can continue warming a room for up to 24 hours?
Perhaps you should learn something from one of those people you worship.
 
> >Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
> >heat input?
> 
> Is this a metaphysical or a physical question? The heat goes in one side
> of those (opaque, window blocking?) water walls and out both sides, almost
> immediately, heating the room air.

By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.  
You're in new and strange territory here, Nick.  Ohm's law only takes an 
EE so far in thermodynamics...

> This is similar to a person for whom
> ideas go in one ear and out the other. Mark Twain said perhaps such a person
> should take out his brain and dance on it, to soften it up.

*THAT'S* what you've been up to; that explains everything....
 
> >Have you no shame?
> 
> I tell the truth, as I see it.

The former is seldom, the latter, obvious.
 
Cheers,
 
Will Stewart


From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:26 EDT 1996
Article: 914 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-19.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:46:15 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-19.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7413 alt.solar.thermal:914 alt.energy.renewable:15783 sci.energy:51108 alt.architecture.alternative:7221

In article <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

| 180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)
| 190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)

| 380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days

| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL

Here's what I'm wondering. Shouldn't one really use not a string of avg
winter temp days, but a string of nasty, colder-than-usual, cloudy ones?
Say a week or two of a nasty arctic air mass stuck in your region.

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:27 EDT 1996
Article: 915 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 13 Jun 1996 02:21:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7415 alt.solar.thermal:915 alt.energy.renewable:15785 sci.energy:51111 alt.architecture.alternative:7223

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
 
>| 180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)

>| 190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)
                      ^-- these are for glazing transmission loss, BTW.

>| 380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
 
>| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
 
That's for a direct gain house. For an isolated gain house, eg one with
a low-thermal-mass sunspace, on a cloudy day we have lower loss:

>| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/Rwall+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
                         ^^^^^--much higher

>Here's what I'm wondering. Shouldn't one really use not a string of avg
>winter temp days, but a string of nasty, colder-than-usual, cloudy ones?
>Say a week or two of a nasty arctic air mass stuck in your region.

Sure. But this is a starting point. It seems to me that one can design a
good sunspace and solar closet house with just two numbers: the average
temp in the coldest month and the average amount of sun that falls on a
south wall. Successive refinements might be to look up the average daytime
high in that month, and use that number instead of the 24 hour average temp,
for the sunspace collection efficiency, to do a TMY2 simulation for the
house, using hourly NREL weather data for a typical meteorological year,
and to do a simulation using hourly weather data for the last 30 years,
>from  one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.
It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:27 EDT 1996
Article: 916 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Date: 13 Jun 1996 03:33:14 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7416 alt.solar.thermal:916 alt.energy.renewable:15786 sci.energy:51112 alt.architecture.alternative:7224

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time...

Feeling uncomfortable, Will? :-)

>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
>
>A publication of the American Solar Engineering Society.

My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."

>> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
>> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?
>
>Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.

I have yet to see one... These calculations are just HVAC craftsmanship, not
"thermodynamics." (Is "electro-mechanical engineering" pinball machines? :-)

>You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
>room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
>color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. Do you understand how
>to calculate convection?

Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.

>> >The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room.

Not for long.

>>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
>>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.

>By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.  

My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...

If you close your curtains at 3 PM, and keep your solar house at 70 F all
night by burning wood, by 9 AM the next morning, the water walls might have
a temperature  

T(t) = 70 + (109-70)exp(-18/7) = 73 F.

If the next day is cloudy, and you leave your curtains closed, and keep
your solar house at 70 F by burning wood for the next 24 hours, the next
morning your water walls might have a temperature of 

T(t) = 70 + (109-70)exp(-42/7) = 70.1 F.
 
Suppose you didn't burn wood the first night. As I recall, your house had
an overall U value of about 150 Btu/hr-F. So over 18 night hours, at 30 F
outside, it would need about 18(70-36)150 = 92K Btu to stay warm. The 3300
lb of water walls and 1000 Btu/F (?) of house would need to cool 92K/4.3K 
= 21 degrees F to do that, so in the morning, your solar house and water
walls would have a temperature of about 70-21 = 49 F.

Over the next 24 hours, if it's 30 F outside, and you keep all of the thermal
curtains drawn all day, and they insulate as well as you say they will (who
makes these curtains, anyhow, and how much do they cost?) your house would
need less than 24(49-30)150 = 68K Btu to stay at 49 F, so after another day
your solar house and water walls would be at least 49 - 68K/4.3K = 33 F...

You could do these calculations in more detail, if you desired. 

The results wouldn't change much.

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:28 EDT 1996
Article: 917 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-15.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:20:53 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-15.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7419 alt.solar.thermal:917 alt.energy.renewable:15792 sci.energy:51121 alt.architecture.alternative:7226

In article <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

| Successive refinements might be to look up the average daytime
| high in that month, and use that number instead of the 24 hour average temp,
| for the sunspace collection efficiency, to do a TMY2 simulation for the
| house, using hourly NREL weather data for a typical meteorological year,
| and to do a simulation using hourly weather data for the last 30 years,
| from one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.

Yeah, this is what I meant.

| It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...

Right (having lived in MN where those cold Canadian air masses are often
cloudless), but you would build for a 30-yr (or 10-yr or some other
long-term) low, not for typical winter days, right? (Though avg days are
fine for a quick comparison of types.)

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:28 EDT 1996
Article: 918 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:45:04 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7420 alt.solar.thermal:918 alt.energy.renewable:15793 sci.energy:51122 alt.architecture.alternative:7227

[followups to alt.solar.thermal for the umpteenth +1 time...]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> 
> >[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time...
> 
> Feeling uncomfortable, Will? :-)

Trying to reduce the embarrassment you create for yourself...

> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
 
> My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."

Do you have any problems with this organization, or are they all ignorant
and criminal, too?
 
> >> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
> >> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?
> >
> >Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.
> 
> I have yet to see one... These calculations are just HVAC craftsmanship, not
> "thermodynamics." 

I wonder how many people in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac would consider you an
HVAC "craftsman"...  

Perhaps an understanding of thermodynamics should be your foundation for 
HVAC calculations, as is the normal in engineering schools.  Don't forget 
you are posting to sci.ENGR.heat-vent-ac.  You continue to strip away all 
of my followups to alt.solar.thermal, so you must suffer the consequent 
loss of face.  If you are trying to attract clients, this isn't a very good
approach.

> >You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
> >room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
> >color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. Do you understand how
> >to calculate convection?
> 
> Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
> Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
> similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.

Convection equivalents are not so cut and dry.  Newton's law of cooling is;

qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

where 
  hc= average convection heat-transfer coefficient over the surface A
      in W/m2*K (Btu/hr*ft^2*F).  hc for air, free convection is 
      1-5 Btu/hr*ft^2*F 

  Ts= Surface temp
  Tf= Undisturbed fluid temperature

Because the thermal store wall will be resting on a perpendicular floor, and
will have a perpendicular table top extending 18 inches into the room, I will
assume an hc value of 1 for purposes of discussion.  The wall design is not 
completely set; one design I am looking at is 10'x2.5'x8", which is slightly 
different from 10'x4'x4".  This design would give a storage per wall at 
16.6 ft^3 X 7.48 gal/ft^3 X 8.33 lb/gal = 1041 Btu storage for each degree F 
delta T.  If they are exposed to 700 Btus/hr ft^2 solar insolation through
dual pane windows, then;

Each storage wall will receive 25 X 700 = 17500 Btus during the day.

With 4 walls, that translates to 17,500 x 4 = 70,000 Btus.

Of course each window group has an addition 50 ft^2 of window space that bypasses 
the thermal storage walls, so another 140,000 Btus will enter those windows.

Two more south window groups do not have thermal storage walls (will likely have
storage floors, such as slate or dark tile on concrete),
so 2 x 70 x 700 = 98,000 Btus additional input.

70K + 140K + 98K = ~310,000 Btus of solar insolation input on an average December day
(January and February are higher).

If we want to add in the thermal storage of other aspects of the house, such as
drywall and flooring, we will find that the thermal mass of the house is 
considerably more, though it is at, or close to, room ambient temperature. If the
room temperature is higher in the daytime, then this thermal mass will rise to
(almost) meet the ambient temperature high.  You calculated 4000 Btu/F for internal
secondary storage in an earlier post, so if the indoor daytime temperature is 75 F 
and the base winter room temperature is 65 F, then internal secondary storage is 
40,000 Btus.

If the Ts = 85 F and Tf = 75F (after a day of average sunlight in 
December), then;

qc = 1*50*(85-75) = 500 Btu/hr per storage wall

which, according to your calculation of my house design at 150 Btu/hr F 
(which you admit needs significant rework, I'll address this in another post),
would raise the room ambient temperature, conversely lowering the qc.

As the room and thermal storage walls starts to cool down to 
Ts = 73 and Ts =68 F, for example, then qc =  125 Btu/hr per storage wall

With 65 F being the base winter room temperature, the storage walls would 
still have 32000 Btus of energy left, not counting the wall, ceiling, and floor
thermal storage.

> >>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
> >>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.
> 
> >By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.
> 
> My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
> windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
> get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
> a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
> heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
> If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
> the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
> might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...

I'm glad to see that you admit you can be wrong.  Your understanding of 
convection still needs work, though, because we haven't even touched on Nusselt, 
Prandl, Reynolds, or Grashof.  You'll find fluid dynamics plays a large role 
in convection, free or forced.  Thermal conductivity physics only takes 
you so far in the real world.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Thu Jun 13 23:14:28 EDT 1996
Article: 919 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!vyzynz!bofh.dot!newsfeed.concentric.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!blackbush.xlink.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:19:18 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31BC7536.521B@dortmund.netsurf.de>
References: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: portc3.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
To: midnite <midnite@algonet.se>

I've an adress of Giordano, but I don't know if it's right.
Jacques Giordano Industries
529, Avenue de la Fleuride
F-13400 Aubagne
Tel +33 42 823 153
Fax: +33 42 700 870

Another adress of an enterprise who sells vacuum collectors is:
Schweizer Solartechnologie
Chnuebraechi 864
8197 Rafz
Tel + 41 1 869 08 49
Fax +41 1 869 08 89

These collectors are only a little less efficient but cost the half of 
those from Giordano.

For details about collectors you should contact:
Technikum Rapperswill in Switzerland.

Greetings
-- 
Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/




From jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:29 EDT 1996
Article: 920 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jr4q+
From: Jason Mansfield Roth <jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:18:26 -0400
Organization: Sponsored account, Architecture, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <cljUnGC00iV_I9IGph@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7230 alt.solar.thermal:920 alt.energy.renewable:15800

>   From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
>   Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
>   
>   PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
>   the local newspaper, . . .  so they could see how their
>   comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red
south wall
>   with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 
> 
>Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
>keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?
> 
>--
>Meir Laker 

As I understand it, you want deep shade -- which black provides (Bedouin
tents are black, if I recall correctly. Also tightly woven to keep out
sand). This is providing you have: a) ventilation beneath the shade and
b) a surface between you and the shade (like a glass wall) so that the
absorbed heat of the black shade does not radiate to you directly. At
any rate, the point of the shade is to prevent solar radiation from
penetrating to you, while a white shade only reflects some visible
light, end lets in all sorts of radiation (blackout curtains are black
for a reason).

If I'm missing something on this, please let me know, as I've actually
just been thinking about this concept a lot, and it sure is
counter-intuitive.

JMR

93 SL2, blue-green

The foul stench of death is upon us!!! Mmmm...burger....

"What's the use of a good house if you don't have a decent planet to put
it on?"



From r.bahm@ieee.org Thu Jun 13 23:14:29 EDT 1996
Article: 921 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Raymond Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:41:46 -0600
Organization: Raymond J. Bahm and Associates
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31BE043A.5A43@ieee.org>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pma13.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)

William R Stewart wrote:
> 
> NOMAD29 wrote:
> >
> > I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> > built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> > for the project.  any ideas??
> >
> > Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> > house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> >
> > The settleing NOMAD
> 
> I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
> build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
> photovoltaics.
> 
> See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.  A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering,
> Inc at 508.677.3533.  The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.
> 

You can always look in the back pages of SOLAR TODAY for the Ads.
If you haven't got the Passive Solar Industries Council Guidelines for passive
solar design in your area, you are missing the most authoritative and best
resource for design information taylored to your local climate.  Well worth
the money spent.

-- 
Ray Bahm  --  r.bahm@ieee.org


From pjm@nando.net Thu Jun 13 23:14:30 EDT 1996
Article: 922 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 13 Jun 1996 21:18:50 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4pq0j4$ljo_001@nando.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail709.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7432 alt.solar.thermal:922 alt.energy.renewable:15804 sci.energy:51145 alt.architecture.alternative:7236

In article <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>,
   jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso) wrote:

~~>| from one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.

	Or http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov , their web site.

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/index.html


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:30 EDT 1996
Article: 923 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: heatflow, heatflow, heatflow
Date: 13 Jun 1996 18:30:04 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 214
Message-ID: <4pq4pc$inb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7436 alt.solar.thermal:923 alt.energy.renewable:15806 sci.energy:51146 alt.architecture.alternative:7238

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
> 
>> My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."
>
>Do you have any problems with this organization, or are they all ignorant
>and criminal, too?

They are good guys with their hearts in the right places, like yours, however,
we haven't seen many 100% solar houses like those of Norman Saunders, PE,
described in their pages lately. Bill Yanda and Steve Baer figure nicely
in their publications. Their technical journal is somewhat clogged with
academics, IMO.

>Perhaps an understanding of thermodynamics should be your foundation for 
>HVAC calculations, as is the normal in engineering schools.

Been there, done that. ASHRAE calcs are more useful and straightforward here.

>>>You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the
>>>ambient room temperature. Since the water wall will be painted (or papered)
>>>a light color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. 

BTW, I think the light color is irrelevant here, unless you are talking about
a shiny metallic surface. Dark colors are good for solar absorption, but IR
emission at eg 80 F is pretty much independent of color. Perhaps you believe
in painting radiators dark colors... I don't think that matters.

>> Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
>> Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
>> similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.
 
>Convection equivalents are not so cut and dry.  Newton's law of cooling is;
 
>qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

Right. Ohm's law for heatflow :-)

>where 
>  hc= average convection heat-transfer coefficient over the surface A
>      in W/m2*K (Btu/hr*ft^2*F).  hc for air, free convection is 
>      1-5 Btu/hr*ft^2*F 

That's a U (=1/R) value, and it's hard to get below 1.5 in still air. It
increases if the air is moving to about U = 1.5 + V/5 for smooth surfaces,
U = 2 + V/2 for rougher ones like stucco, where V is in mph. See ASHRAE HOF
Fig 1, p 22.1. You might be able to get U < 1 if you make the water wall faces
shiny metal (U ~ 0.5 for upward heatflow, ~ 0.25 for sideways heatflow), but
that won't work for the side facing the sun, which will impose a lower limit
on the overall U-value of at least 1.5, unless it's a selective surface.
 
>  Ts= Surface temp
>  Tf= Undisturbed fluid temperature

Natch.

>Because the thermal store wall will be resting on a perpendicular floor, and
>will have a perpendicular table top extending 18 inches into the room, I will
>assume an hc value of 1 for purposes of discussion.

1.5 is probably closer to the truth, especially since the floor and table top
will act as conductive fins. Gluing foil-faced foamboard to the non-south
surfaces would help...

>The wall design is not completely set; one design I am looking at is
>10'x2.5'x8", which is slightly different from 10'x4'x4".

OK.

>This design would give a storage per wall at 16.6 ft^3 X 7.48 gal/ft^3 X
>8.33 lb/gal = 1041 Btu storage for each degree F delta T.

OK.

>If they are exposed to 700 Btus/hr ft^2 solar insolation

That was 700 Btu/day-ft^2. Full sun is 311 Btu/hr-ft^2, max, on earth.
                 ^^^
>through dual pane windows, then;

>Each storage wall will receive 25 X 700 = 17500 Btus during the day.

Agreed, for a 25 ft^2 water wall face...

>With 4 walls, that translates to 17,500 x 4 = 70,000 Btus.
 
OK.

>Of course each window group has an addition 50 ft^2 of window space that
>bypasses the thermal storage walls, so another 140,000 Btus will enter
>those windows.

OK. But irrelevant.

>Two more south window groups do not have thermal storage walls (will
>likely have storage floors, such as slate or dark tile on concrete),
>so 2 x 70 x 700 = 98,000 Btus additional input.

OK. But irrelevant.

>70K + 140K + 98K = ~310,000 Btus of solar insolation input on an average
>December day (January and February are higher).

OK. But irrelevant.

>If we want to add in the thermal storage of other aspects of the house, such as
>drywall and flooring, we will find that the thermal mass of the house is 
>considerably more, though it is at, or close to, room ambient temperature. 

That's what we will find, huh? :-) How much? Numbers please.

>If the room temperature is higher in the daytime, then this thermal mass
>will rise to (almost) meet the ambient temperature high.

Sure. Or higher, if it's in the sun, eg the floor.

>You calculated 4000 Btu/F for internal secondary storage in an earlier post,

That was a guess. Your house might have 4,000 ft^2 of 1/2" drywall with a
thermal mass of 0.5 Btu/F, ie 2,000 Btu/F. How much will your solar fireplace
weigh? That would add about 0.16 Btu/lb...

>so if the indoor daytime temperature is 75 F and the base winter room
>temperature is 65 F, then internal secondary storage is 40,000 Btus.

OK, go ahead, double that number, but that's still a drop in the bucket
compared to a typical day's energy need of 24(70-40)150 = 108K.

>If the Ts = 85 F and Tf = 75F (after a day of average sunlight in December),

Is Ts the water wall temp, and Tf the room and wall temp?

>qc = 1*50*(85-75) = 500 Btu/hr per storage wall

Let's see, you said above,

>qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

and you said you wanted to use hc = 1, altho 1.5 is a more reasonable min...
So where did the 50 come from? Oh, 2 sides to each water wall, each 25 ft^2.
I guess you'd want to add the perimeter area of 8"/12" x 25' = 17 ft^2, and
something for the floor and table fins? So I'd make this 1.5x67x(85-75) =
1,000 Btu/hr/wall, altho you seem to have pulled the 85 F out of a hat.
Perhaps you'd like to recalculate that 109 F with these new shapes.

>which, according to your calculation of my house design at 150 Btu/hr F 
>(which you admit needs significant rework, I'll address this in another post),

Perhaps you would like to recalculate that. It's your house.

>would raise the room ambient temperature, conversely lowering the qc.

Right. Until you are parading naked :-)
 
>As the room and thermal storage walls starts to cool down to 
>Ts = 73 and Ts =68 F, for example, then qc =  125 Btu/hr per storage wall

What difference does that make? You might rework that too.

>With 65 F being the base winter room temperature, the storage walls would 
>still have 32000 Btus of energy left, not counting the wall, ceiling, and floor
>thermal storage.

OK. I get 33,312 Btu, using your numbers above.
But what's the point of this calculation, Will?

>> >>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
>> >>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.
 
>> >By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.
 
>>My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
>>windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
>>get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
>>a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
>>heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
>>If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
>>the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
>>might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...
 
>I'm glad to see that you admit you can be wrong.

Sure. I miscalculated before. You are building a whole house wrong :-)

>Your understanding of convection still needs work, though, because we haven't
>even touched on Nusselt, Prandl, Reynolds, or Grashof. You'll find fluid
>dynamics plays a large role in convection, free or forced. Thermal
>conductivity physics only takes you so far in the real world.

R-values are sufficient here.

So let's see. Your new water walls have a thermal resistance of 2/3/67 ft^2
and a thermal mass of 1041 Btu/F, so their RC time constant is 10.35 hours,
and your house with the 4,000 Btu/F of inherent thermal mass and 150 Btu/F-hr
with all the curtains drawn has a time constant of 26.6 hours, so if I'm doing
this right, we might figure the RC time constant of your entire house with 
all those ritual curtains drawn as the RMS value sqrt(26.6^2+10.35^2)=28.5 hr.

Suppose we say the average temp of the thermal mass in your house is 80 F
to start with. Then when it's 30 F outside, with all the thermal curtains
drawn in the dark, 24 hours a day, the indoor house temp will be:

T(t) = 30 + (80-30) exp(-t/28.5)

80 F after 0 hours, 52 F after 24 hours, and 39 F after 48 hours.  
 
Still not a solar house by a long shot, I'd say. Altho it could be
dramatically improved by rearranging the same materials... 
 
Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:30 EDT 1996
Article: 924 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: heatflow, heatflow, heatflow
Date: 13 Jun 1996 21:15:37 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4pqefp$klm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net> <4pq4pc$inb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7439 alt.solar.thermal:924 alt.energy.renewable:15808 sci.energy:51152 alt.architecture.alternative:7239

I wrote:

>we might figure the RC time constant of your entire house with all those
>ritual curtains drawn as the RMS value sqrt(26.6^2+10.35^2)=28.5 hr.

On second thought, it's probably more accurate to calculate the steady-state
water wall temp and model the house as having a fixed hold time of a few hours
followed by an exponential cooling with a time constant of 8000/150 = 53 hours.

Still piss-poor solar performance...

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:31 EDT 1996
Article: 925 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!wariat.org!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-04.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:59:37 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-04.dialip.mich.net

In article <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>, wstewart@patriot.net wrote:

| Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
| his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
| up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.
| 
| >                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
| >                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
| > Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp

Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. The 70 degree limit
would then be regulated by the homeowner who opens a window or closes a
vent (or has some automatic (magic?) mechanism do this) so that the temp
doesn't exceed 70. If the house gets above 70, that would be nice for
those who like it hot, I guess, and would make the house cool down to an
unacceptable temp more slowly, but probably wouldn't be desirable for most
people.

(BTW, it's "spagHetti" and while I've heard of spaghetti westerns, I'm not
familiar with spaghetti code, though maybe I'm just ignorant. :-) )

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From steen@x1.us.ohio-state.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:24 EDT 1996
Article: 885 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!steen
From: steen@x1.us.ohio-state.edu (Steen Hansen)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: 4 Jun 1996 20:11:09 GMT
Organization: University Technology Services
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4p258t$h5c@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <4orjtl$5b3@sow.colloquium.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: x1.us.ohio-state.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15619 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1348 alt.solar.thermal:885

In article <4orjtl$5b3@sow.colloquium.co.uk>,
Stewart C. Russell <scruss@colloquium.co.uk> wrote:
>michaelc@netwave.net wrote:
>
>The traffic in alt.energy.renewable isn't too big to deal with,
>anyway. Stick with what we've got.

I agree, except some sites do not accept postings from any alt.* groups.
If we can get a sci.* group I would vote for it, otherwise I don't see
any point, given the current volume.

Steen

-- 
Steen Hansen (Hviid), Computer Specialist, The Ohio State University

Watching TV and drinking beer has a lot in common: Too much makes you
stupid.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:24 EDT 1996
Article: 886 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling - Ask Nick Pine
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:15:17 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <4p5eto$mac_001@nando.net> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7288 alt.energy.renewable:15636 alt.architecture.alternative:7185 sci.energy:50793 alt.solar.thermal:886

Marc L O'Brien <mlobrien@fridgemech.win-uk.net> wrote:

Ask Nick Pine? **I'm** not a Freon pumper! :-) But if you like, I'll try
to help. First a word about greenhouse shadecloth. I've almost convinced
the local newspaper, The Collegeville Independent, "Neutral on Nothing--
Accept and defend the truth, whatever the source!" which is 122 years old
this week, to hang a 24' x 32' piece of 80% sun-absorbing red greenhouse
shadecloth over the barn red south wall of their converted barn with R11
insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. The windows alone will pass
600 Btu/ft^2/day of sun into the building in August, ie 50K Btu/day, or 10
hours of 5,000 Btu/hr AC, when the average daily max outdoor temp is 85 F,
with a daily night min of 66 and a 24 hr average of 76. This stuff costs
about 20 cents/ft^2 from Stuppy at (800) 877-5025, sewed to order with
hems and grommets in about 2 weeks, and it comes in various colors (black
being my favorite :-) So this should save them about a dollar a day in
AC cost and make the place more comfy inside...

>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:

>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
>>the same term to describe ).

Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)

>        Changing the subject slightly, cold room design normally
>works on 16 Hr out of 24Hr. Lots of spare capacity here and time for
>off cycle passive air circ defrost. Off for considerably more time
>than the 8 Hrs above, then open products like beef become too moist
>and soft to work on.

I suppose that's not much of a problem in the UK these days. 

>Back to the home system, If the home contains a large thermal mass
>then during initial temperature pull down the unit will run
>continuously as normal.

Sounds reasonable to me...

>Then when room temperature first reaches the
>set point the AC cycles but the room mass would not yet have
>dropped to set point and so will quickly warm the room air again
>bringing the AC back on. The AC will appear to short cycle until
>the rooms thermal mass more closely reaches set point.

So the duty cycle will gradually decrease over time...

>Then once the room mass is within the thermostats differential temperature
>range it affects cycling time depending on the ratio of that mass
>to rate of room heat ingress.

I think I see what you are getting at here. What we really want is a house
with a large RC time constant, no? Perhaps one with a huge amount of thermal
mass, and a reasonable amount of insulation. Suppose those two brothers who
built their stone house with 13 million pounds of rocks, including rocks for
the roof (written up in Mother Earth News recently) had foamed the outside
with 4" of urethane? Hmmm. RC = R30/3000ft^2x13x10^6x0.16 = 20,800 hours or
28 months or 2.4 years. Open it up for a few days once a year in the winter,
if it begins to get too warm, and open it up for a few days every summer if
it gets too cold. No need for heat or AC. The average yearly temp where I
live is about 55 F, so it would be open more often in summer. If we start
the house out at 70 F in July, by the end of our 5500 DD heating season, it
will have lost 13.2 million Btu, enough to cool the rock walls 6 degrees F.

>        So, if the room mass versus heat ingress is low then the
>unit will cycle frequently.
>        If the room mass versus heat ingress is high then the unit
>will stretch its off and on cycles.

That makes sense to me.

>Nick Pine would explain I'm sure. 

Sure. Repent now! Give up your Freon habits!

Hope this helps.

Nick



From mschwarz@winternet.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:24 EDT 1996
Article: 887 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!mschwarz
From: mschwarz@winternet.com (Michael Schwarz)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Followup-To: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Date: 6 Jun 1996 19:20:22 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4p7b1m$i1q@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <morris.277.00254881@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: parka.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107242 alt.energy.renewable:15640 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1350 alt.solar.thermal:887 sci.energy:50804

: >> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
: >> 
: >> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
: >> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
: >> much less than that.
: >> 
: >> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
: >> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower

: >In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
: >a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?

IMHO, the "sci" hierarchy is for scientists engaged in active research.
Unfortunately, that is becoming less and less the case as us layfolk
drive the researchers away with a lot of questions that basically waste
their time.  I think an "alt.energy.homepower" group is a good idea.
It would help turn the scattershot resources out here now into a sort
of "one-stop=shopping."

SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT:  Please check out the FAQ I'm drafting for the
alt.solar.photovoltaic newsgroup.  You will find an HTML version at:

http://www.winternet.com/~mschwarz/solar-faq.html


: Since the topics mentioned above concern energy management, and self-reliance,
: maybe we should consider newsgroup names like:

: alt.energy.self-reliant
: alt.home.self-reliant
: alt.home-energy-management

Again, IMHO: Self-reliance is a dangerous myth.  I have always felt that
people who embrace renewables to be "idependent" are walking down a path
that lets them believe they owe nothing to society and that they no longer
have a stake in the health of the community.

Unless you do without all modern conveniences an "off-gridder" is still
just as much dependent on modern industrial civilization as anyone else.
He or she is just polluting a little less.  I don't mean to minimize the
value of that, but merely to highlight that it is not possible to live
truly apart from the community.  Any such distance is merely comfortable
illusion.  For that reason, I would much prefer "homepower."

: Inteligent commentary and opinions welcome, lets make this a discussion,
: flames to dev/null.

I eagerly await to find out if my commentary is intelligent.


--
Michael A. Schwarz                           Minneapolis, MN
mschwarz@winternet.com                  n0zes@n0zes.ampr.org



From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:25 EDT 1996
Article: 888 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar tube hot water heater
Date: 5 Jun 1996 21:48:45 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <4p4vbt$cgc@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cadb125.cadvision.com

does anyone out there know where I can fing a specific newsgroup or chat line regarding this system?



From frg@io.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:25 EDT 1996
Article: 889 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.millennianet.com!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Thermo-Acoustic Engines and Resonators-Investors Wanted
Date: 5 Jun 1996 22:04:53 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4p50a5$1f0@nntp-1.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-128.austin.io.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

We need working capital to develop thermoacoustic cycle (TAC) engines and 
thermoacoustic resonators (TAR) for mass marketing.  This technology is the 
first new breakthrough in thermal energy conversion in decades.  These engines 
and resonators convert thermal energy into electric current at high 
efficiency.  They cost less than one-fourth that of photovoltaic cells per 
peak Watt and have applications ranging from pollution-free lawn and garden 
equipment to automobiles to stationary power generation.  They are silent in 
operation and will operate from any source of heat, including chemical fuels 
such as gasoline, propane, alcohol and hydrogen, and from other heat sources 
such as solar radiation, waste heat from industrial processes, etc.  Using 
propane, equipment such as lawnmowers and portable generators are noiseless 
and pollution-free.  Silent generators for RV's, engines for cars, boats, 
small equipment, and many other applications are possible.  The market 
potential is enormous.  If we can find the capital, we will be a multi-million 
dollar corporation in less than five years.  Serious investors can contact 
Jonathan Aristides at (512) 218-4803, or by e-mail at frg@io.com.

Fellows Research Group, Inc.
P.O. Box 201207
Austin, TX 78720-1207





From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:25 EDT 1996
Article: 890 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar tubes
Date: 6 Jun 1996 04:02:15 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <4p5l87$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cade124.cadvision.com

Is there anyone out there who is familiar with a newsgroup/chatline which would deal with thermomax solar tubes.  If so, please respond to mfieldin@cadvision.com



From scamp@cadvision.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:25 EDT 1996
Article: 891 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cadvision.com!usenet
From: scamp <scamp@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: thermomax solar water heat tubes
Date: 6 Jun 1996 04:05:43 GMT
Organization: CADVision
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <4p5len$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cade124.cadvision.com

Is there anybody out there who knows of either a newsgroup or chat line that deals with thermomax solar water heat tubes?  If so please e-mail me at mfieldin@cadvision.com


From rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:38:26 EDT 1996
Article: 892 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet
From: rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mike Davies")
Subject: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Message-ID: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Compulink Information eXchange
X-Newsreader: PowWow
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:39:55 GMT
Lines: 61

Thermomax Solar Panels & the TMX300 controller.

Has anyone got one of these working OK ?

We've had ours about 18 months, and because we don't know anyone else 
who has one, and we don't trust salesmen, we don't know what to expect.

We are using it for domestic hot water. In the winter we use a coal 
fired stove which also does the radiators. In the summer we use the 
sun.

To be fair, there was a fault. In the night, convection currents set up 
and took heat out of the hot water tank, up to the panels, which 
switched the pump on, cooled the panels down again, and this would 
repeat throughout the night, so that if at say 11pm the tank temp was 
60C by 7am it was down to say 35C or less. This didn't matter too much 
in the winter because we had the Rayburn going, but now it is summer...

A few weeks ago I moved the pump and non-return valve to the hot side 
of the hot water tank, and in the process discovered the non-return 
valve was duff, so replaced it, and now overnight we only loose 2 or 3 
deg C. :-)

The problem now is that we seem to loose a fair bit of temp at the end 
of the day, say between 5pm & nightfall. :-(

At the end of a typical day, with the sun coming off the panels, a 
typical set of readings is Collector 63C, Tank 58C, Return 54C. The 
tank reading is really meaningless because we don't use it to switch 
any auxiliary circuits, it just nice to know how hot the hot water is. 
We have the controller set so that the collector must be above 40C to 
switch on, also the difference between the Collector & the Return (DT) 
must be > 8C.

With the return sensor on the return pipe (as it was installed) a 
typical set of readings through the evening would be

Time      17:30  18:00  19:00  19:30  20:00  20:30  21:30  23:00
Collector    63     63     60     54     52     49     45     26
Tank         58     57     56     54     52     50     47     46
Return       54     54     52     46     45     43     38     25

As you can see, we have effectively lost 11C in just the 4 hours up to 
21:30, and then it all seems to stabilise, with virtually no more heat 
loss overnight.

Has anyone any suggestions as to what can be happening here ? It can't 
be convection currents. I've knocked that on the head, so the pump must 
be switching on and extracting heat like it used to overnight. For the 
pump to switch on, Collector must be above 40C & DT must be > 8C, so 
either the return is cooling quicker than the collector, or, what ?

Which leads me to the original question. Has anyone got one of these 
things. What setting are you using, for the collector temp and DT, and 
do you experience this drop too ? The return sensor was installed on 
the pipe returning to the collector. Is the return sensor in the right 
place ? Should I move it to reflect the tank temperature, i.e. on the
tank ?

Mike



From midnite@algonet.se Thu Jun 13 23:38:26 EDT 1996
Article: 893 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!news.sics.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!news
From: midnite@algonet.se (midnite)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:24:35 GMT
Organization: j%nki~w€RJ3M-26XPLZ8L-BFGD44CT-1EA6BC82
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.algonet.se
NNTP-Posting-User: b2c6ad9ea429c6cef93c87732e2a5b740
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

Hi!
I am looking for the address to "Giordano Industries" in marseille in
France. If you know it please let me know. The phonecompany can't find
it.

They manufacture solar vacuum collector tubes. 

If you know any manufactors of solar vacuum tubes, please let me know.

I need this kind of solar collector because I live in cold Sweden.

Regards 
Hans Nilsson
Ringby 6421
S-442 93 Kungalv
Sweden
Fax +46-303-222 839
Pho +46-708-22 83 90




From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:26 EDT 1996
Article: 894 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A thermal design case study for a warmstore shed
Date: 7 Jun 1996 11:02:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 543
Message-ID: <4p9gao$hmu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7309 alt.energy.renewable:15663 sci.energy:50850 alt.solar.thermal:894

Here's a guided meander of a thermal design for a 100% solar-heated 8 x 12'
shed in the Philadelphia area, one that might sit on a lawn and be used for
8 hours a day in the winter, for a workshop, studio, playhouse or retreat.
Since it would only be used during the day, perhaps not at all on some days,
we might put the thermal mass overhead and use a low-thermal-mass solar air
heater, an "igloo heat trap" on the south wall with no dampers or power 
required to warm the thermal mass in the attic, and a low-power attic fan
to bring down heat to the low-thermal-mass room when needed...

These days, many "100% solar houses" are very airtight and well-insulated,
and costly, with little glazing or thermal mass, and they are largely heated
by the internal electrical use and bodies of their occupants. Suppose we go
in some other directions, away from superinsulated houses, and try to see
how much thermal mass and glazing and how little insulation we can use in
this solar structure with no other form of heat...

Let's start by assuming the shed is 12' tall, with a ceiling height of 8'
and a 4' tall attic above that, with twenty 55 gallon drums full of water
in the attic, each 2' diameter x 3' tall:

                                                   12'
                                       -------------------------
                     view from above  |  D   D   D   D   D   D  |
                                      |                         |
So, this structure might have about   |  D   D  ceiling  D   D  |
10,000 pounds of water in the attic   |                         | 8'
with R10 attic insulation, eg 2" of   |  D   D    fan    D   D  |
foam, and R1 walls below, eg 3/8"     |                         |
T-111 wooden walls. The lower 8' of   |  D   D   D   D   D   D  |
the south wall would be R2, since      ------------------------- 
it would have glazing over the wood,
with an air gap.
                       8'                        96 ft^2
                ---------------        -------------------------
               |               |      |           R10?          |
               |      R10?     |      |                         |
               |    32 ft^2    |      |         48 ft^2         | 4'
               |               |      |                         |
               |---------------|      |-------------------------|
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||              |      |                         |
               ||      R1?     |      |            R2?          | 8'
               ||    64 ft^2   |      |          96 ft^2        |
               ||              |      |                         |
   reflecting  ||              |      |                         |
      pool?    ||              |      |                         |
           -----------------------   --------------12'-------------
                   east view                   south view           

The first thing to check might be whether the solar glazing can keep the room
warm on an average December day, with some sun. The room has a total R1 wall
area of 96 + 64 x 2 = 224 ft^2, and another 96 ft^2/R2 for the south wall, for
a total thermal conductance of 224ft^2/R1 + 96ft^2/R2 = 272 Btu/hr-F, not
counting the room ceiling or attic walls or attic ceiling. On a typical 6 hour
December day in Philadelphia, when it's 36 F outside and the south wall gets
1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun, the room might lose 8hr(76-36)272 = 87K Btu of
heat, and the lower 8' x 12' of glazed wall might receive about 96 x 1,000
= 96K Btu. Looks good so far.

IF the water is 130 F after a long string of average December days, it can
supply about (130-80)20x500 = 500K of heat for the room below, enough for
about 5 days without sun, keeping the room warm for 8 hours a day with the
ceiling fan. That seems OK...

But it's marginal, thermally-speaking, and 5 tons is a lot of overhead water,
requiring lots of space, and strong ceiling joists and walls. Suppose we add
a little more insulation to the walls below.

Let's add 2" of Styrofoam to the outside of the north wall, with some latex
paint to protect it from the sun. (Styrofoam on the inside would lower the
thermal mass of the room, but it could be a fire hazard, and it would reduce
the floorspace.) Now the room has 96ft^2/R10 + 96ft^2/R2 + 2x64ft^2/R1 = 186
Btu/hr-F, so on an average winter day it needs 8 (76-36)186 = 60K Btu to stay
at 76 F for 8 hours, so we need 300K/25K = 12 drums in the attic to supply
heat for 5 days without sun, ie 3 tons vs 5 tons of water upstairs, at an
added cost of about $50 for the foam. Seems like a good tradeoff. Note that
no heat is lost from the room to the attic during the day or night, because
the attic is always warmer than the room, as designed. And the room will
gain, not lose heat through the south wall on an average winter day.

Let's check that. In full sun, if the drum temp is 130 F, and the south wall
is about 130 F, and the room temp is 70 F, about (130-70)96 ft^2/R1 = 5760
Btu/hr of heat will flow thru the south wall. Where will it go? Out the other
3 walls of the room, which have a thermal conductance of 96ft^2/R10 (for the
north wall) + 128ft^2/R1 (for the side walls) = 137.6 Btu/F, so we won't have
to open the windows and waste any solar heat if the outdoor temp is less than
Ta, where (70-Ta)137.6 = 5760, ie Ta = 70 - 5760/137.6 = 28 F. But the average
winter temp is 36 F, so we may have to waste a lot of the sun that comes 
through the glazing by venting, especially on warm sunny winter days. So
let's put R10 insulation inside the south wall, eg foil-faced foamboard,
tucked between the 2x4 wall studs on 2' centers. Then the heat that flows in
when the wall is 130 F and the room is 70 F will be 576 Btu/hr (more, if the
studs are exposed), and we can collect solar heat without wasting any by
venting the room, until the outdoor temp rises to 70-576/137.6 = 66 F, at
which point we hardly need heat anyway. Insulating the south wall will also
help with natural cooling in summertime.

With that R10 in the south wall, we have a thermal conductance for the room
of 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x64ft^2/R1 = 147 Btu/hr-F, so on an average December day
the room would need 8(76-36)147 = 47K Btu to stay warm, so we'd need 236K/25K
= 10 drums in the attic to supply heat for 5 days with no sun, ie 5,000 vs
6,000 pounds of water upstairs, adding another $50 in foam. Still seems like
a good tradeoff... 

How big do the joists for the 8' x 12' ceiling have to be to support 5,000
pounds, ie 52 pounds per square foot? If the wood has a max fiber stress
rating in bending of f=1,000 psi and the joists are 16" on center, with an
L=8' span, the total load on a beam is W = 52 psf x 4/3' x 8' = 555 pounds.
The ceiling might be open, with one or two 12' boards running lengthwise to
keep the joists from twisting under the weight of the drums. Bending moment
M=WxLx12/8=6,660 in-lb, section modulus S=M/f=6.6 in^3, and a joist width
b=1.5" would require a joist depth d=sqrt(6S/b)=5.13". So we might use 2x6s. 

Let's add 2 more 4' x 8' sheets of foam to the outside of the sidewalls, so
the total thermal conductance of the room becomes 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x32ft^2/R1
+ 2x32ft^2/R10 = 89.6 Btu/hr-F. Now on an average day the room needs about
8(76-36)90 = 29K Btu to stay warm, with no sun, so we need about 150K/25K = 6
drums in the attic to supply heat for 5 days without sun, ie 3K vs 5K pounds
of water upstairs, spending another $32 on foamboard, which still seems like
a good tradeoff... The room's air infiltration is becoming a larger part of
the thermal conductance now: assuming the attic is absolutely airtight (we
don't want any air leaks there), the 768 ft^2 of room below with 1 Air Change
per Hour would have an effective thermal conductance of about 768/60 cfm =
13 Btu/F. This wasn't very important before, but it has now grown to 15% of
the total thermal conductance. 

At this point, we might remove some of the air heater glazing, and add more
insulation and air-infiltration-proofing, and begin to turn this into a
superinsulated building, but let's put in 4' of south clerestory windows 
instead, for heat and daylight (and drama :-), with some interior insulating
shutters, hinged at the top edge, that fold up and back to the north when the
structure is occupied, and hang down vertically to cover the windows when it
is not. So the 4'x12' of 2" Styrofoam at the top of the south wall becomes
4'x12' of R10 foil-faced foamboard, hinged at the top edge. Single layer
polycarbonate glazing costs about $1/ft^2, lasts many years, and comes in
sheets 49" wide and 0.020" thick, from Replex Plastics at (800) 726-5151.

We now have 144 ft^2 of solar glazing, but only 6 55 gallon drums, each one
having only 25 ft^2 of surface, so the glazing/thermal mass area ratio is
6x25/144=1.04. This is not a good passive system, because with 300x144
=43,200 Btu/hr or about 13 KW of full sun, with an R-value of 2/3 for the
still air film at a drum surface, the air-water temperature difference will
be about 43,200x2/3/150 = 192 F, so the attic will be very warm, and a lot
of the heat in the attic will flow thru the R10 attic insulation, wasting
a lot of the sun that comes through the glazing.

If the thermal mass had 10 times the glazing area, the temp difference across
the thermal mass surface would only be 19 F, which is better. We could switch
to smaller containers of water, eg 50 8 gallon plastic paint pails with lids,
which are about 12" in diameter and 16" tall, for a glazing/thermal mass area
ratio of 2:1, or 720 2 liter soda bottles for an area ratio of 5:1. Another
way to reduce the thermal mass surface resistance is to run the fan to help
collect sun when nobody's in the room. If this could be done without moving
heat down to the room, it might be a good idea. With a 5 mph airflow, the
thermal conductance of the plastic buckets would increase from about 3/2 to
3/2 + 5/5 = 2.5 Btu/hr, according to Fig 1 on page 22.1 of the 1993 ASHRAE
Handbook of Fundamentals. If the buckets had a rougher surface, like stucco,
their conductance would rise to 2 + 5/2 = 4.5. Using roughened paint pails
(how to do that?) might allow saving materials, if they were suspended from
Dacron ropes going from stud to stud overhead, with no ceiling joists. But
suppose we sit them on an attic floor instead, say along the 12' north wall,
stacked 2 high, sitting in a 4' wide x 6" deep EPDM rubber trench full of
rainwater from the roof, perhaps with some 2 liter soda bottles in between.
The pail bottoms would take up 19.6 ft^2 of the 48 ft^2 trench bottom, leaving
28.4 ft^2 x 1/2 = 14.2 ft^3 or 113 gallons or 900 pounds of water in the
trench. It rains about 4" a month in Philadelphia. We might collect rainwater
>from  the flat roof, and run it down into this trench...

Now how about natural cooling in summertime? NREL's Solar Radiation Manual
for Buildings says July is the hottest month in Philadelphia, with an average
daytime high of 86 F, 24 hour average of 77 and average night low of 67, and
an average windspeed of 8 mph. The air contains an average of 0.0133 pounds
of water per pound of dry air, and NREL's metric Solar Radiation Data Manual
for Flat Plate and Concentrating Collectors says this corresponds to 70%
humidity. At what temperature? The ASHRAE HOF says 65 F air with 0.01327
pounds of water per pound of dry air has 100% humidity, which may be why we 
often see dew on the grass on a summer morning. Perhaps this condensation of
water from air limits the nightime temperature drop during the summer in
Philadelphia. When a pound of water condenses from air, it releases about
1,000 Btu of heat, and this heat helps keep the air warm. (Does the same thing
happen in the winter? Is there a sticky point, a temporary plateau, as the
air temperature tries to drop below 32 F, where it has to freeze a lot of
water on the way down? Weather scientist Richard James says no, but I wonder.
It only takes 144 Btu to freeze a pound of water, so freezing may limit the
lower air temp less than condensation, especially in places away from large
bodies of freezing water. 

Suppose we have 50 8 gallon plastic paint pails in the attic, each having
a surface area of about 6 ft^2, and about 4,100 pounds of water with a
thermal mass of about 4,100 Btu/F and a surface area of about 330 ft^2.
If this water is cool, it will cool the room below, since cold air sinks,
and the water will become warmer during a summer day. Suppose the water were
77 F at the end of a summer day, and we opened some vents to the outside
to allow 67 F night air to flow through the attic and cool the water, and
closed up the attic again the next day. If the night air moves slowly, the
rough-surfaced containers of water will have an air film conductance of
about 2 Btu/hr-F, so during the first hour exposed to night air they might
lose about (77-67)330ft^2x2=6,600 Btu of heat, about the same as a small
window air conditioner, but using no power :-) If we add a fan, and somehow 
raise the average air velocity past the pails to say, 4 mph, their thermal
conductance will increase to about 2 + 4/2, or 4, so in the first hour, they
might lose 12,000 Btu of heat while we use 100 Watts of electricity. The
water might cool about 3 F (12,000/4,100) in the first hour. 

The water trench under the pails might also lose heat to the night air by
evaporation (not much, on an average night in Philadelphia.) Page 664 of
Duffie and Beckman's _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_ (Wiley, 1991,
2nd edition) has this equation for relative heat loss from a pond by
evaporation:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)  p
     ----- = ------------ ---
      Qe       Pwp - Pa   760

where Qc,pa is the loss of heat from the pond by convection, in Watts/m^2-K,
      Qe is the loss of heat from the pond by evaporation, in Watts/m^2-K,
      Tp and Ta are the Celsius temperatures of the water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are the vapor pressures of the pond surface and air, and 
      p is the barometric pressure, with all pressures in mm Hg.

The book says this ratio of convective to evaporative loss is essentially
independent of windspeed. We already have an estimate for the convective 
loss using a fan, 2 Btu/hr-F, but that's in US units. Let's convert this
nice metric equation above to US units, since most US HVAC engineers are
more familiar with US units. We can start by ignoring the absolute pressure,
since Philadelphia is at sea level, and divide by a factor of 1.8 to make
the ratio come out the same, since there are 1.8 F degrees in each C degree.
Since this is a heat loss ratio, we don't need to worry about the difference
between Btu/hr and Watts. So we have:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)/1.8 
     ----- = ----------------
       Qe        Pwp - Pa  

where Tp and Ta are the Farenheit temperatures of the water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are the vapor pressures of the pond surface and air in mm Hg.

There are 25.4 mm in an inch, so 1 mm Hg is equivalent to 1/25.4" Hg in US
units. Multiplying the denominator of the equation by 25.4, we get a nice
decimal constant:

     Qc,pa   0.46(Tp -Ta)/1.8   0.01(Tp-Ta)
     ----- = ---------------- = -----------
       Qe     25.4(Pwp - Pa)      Pwp-Pa

where Qc,pa is the loss of heat from the pond by convection, in Btu/hr-F,
      Qe is the loss of heat from the pond by evaporation, in Btu/hr-F,
      Tp and Ta are Farenheit temperatures of water and air, and 
      Pwp and Pa are vapor pressures at pond surface and air in inches Hg.

Let's cover the flat roof with a single piece of EPDM rubber, with a 2" board
around the edge, under the rubber, to make a shallow roof pond, so we can pump
some water up from the attic pond through this roof pond on a summer night. 

Since this won't work very well on dewy Philadelphia nights, where we don't
need much cooling anyway, let's temporarily move this shed to Abilene, Texas,
where seldom is heard a discouraging word, and happy Christians spend long
hours listening to air conditioners purr (around indoor campfires? :-), while
avoiding Dark Gulf War Thoughts. July is the hottest month in Abilene, on 
average, with a nightime average low of 73 F and a 24 hour average temp of 84
and an average daytime high of 95, and the humidity ratio of the air is
0.0130 #w/#da. This is almost the same in August, ie hot. The average wind
is about 10 mph (at night, too?) Table 2 on page 6.4 of our trusty HOF says
that air with that humidity ratio is saturated at about 64.5 F, so we now
have a chance to use swamp cooling; 73 F air can hold 0.017575 #w/#da, at a
water vapor pressure of 0.81882" Hg, so that nightime air would have a
relative humidity of about 74%, and a water vapor pressure of 0.74x0.81882
= 0.606" Hg, if I'm doing this right. Water vapor in 77 F moist air has a
pressure of 0.93589" Hg, so on an average 73 F night, with a 10 mph wind,
the 77 F pond might lose (77-73)8'x12'(2+10/2) = 2,688 Btu/hr by convection,
and the ratio above would be 0.01(77-73)/(0.93589-0.606) = 0.0132, so the
pond would lose 2,688/0.0132 = 204K Btu/hr by evaporation, like 41 window
air conditioners...

Wow. Is that right? Can we evaporate 204 pounds of water in an hour, ie 0.45
gallons per minute, on an average night in August in Abilene? There isn't much
water in Texas, so we'd probably want to drain a roof pond during the day, but
Abilene has lots of electricity made from natural gas. A rational Texan with
an AC with a COP of 2, paying 10 cents/kWh of electricity might want to import
evaporative cooling water from a neighboring state at 10 cents/6800 Btu, ie
1.5 cents per pound or 12 cents per gallon, or send the other state gas or
electricity in exchange for water. A rational neighboring state might want to
trade water for gas, especially if they get most of the water back as rain.
Should the tall, dramatic and proud triangular tower at Abilene Christian
University have a pond on its flat roof, if Faith without Works is Dead? :-)

Baruch Givoni's _Passive and Low Energy Cooling of Buildings_ book says that
even a dry roof can be 10 C cooler than the surrounding air, on a calm clear
night, because of night sky radiation. A wind would warm up the roof...

                      *           *            *

Let's move the shed back to Philadelphia now, where pacifist Mennonites
listen to oil burners purr in their basements most of the year, and
people want new houses to look like they were built 100 years ago. 

Suppose we left the roof pond filled up during the day in the summer here,
and stretched a piece of greenhouse shadecloth over it, so the roof is
close to the 67.5 F wet bulb temperature 24 hours a day...

If we left the water in the roof pond in winter, with an R1 layer of bubble
pack on top, it would receive 530 Btu/ft^2/day of sun in December, which would
raise the average temperature of the roof water from 36 F to T, which would
be higher because of the sun, as well as the heat the roof pond receives from
the 130 F pails thru R10 insulation: 24(T-36) = 24(130-T)/R10+530 ==>
T = 1706/26.4 = 64.6 F.

The roof pond would also limit the lower roof temperature for a time, in very
cold weather. Once the 1024 pounds of water on the roof begins to freeze,
it will take 147K Btu to freeze it solid, eg 36 hours at -10 F.

Melting 3' of snow equivalent to 4" of ice off the roof by pumping up some
water from the attic would take about 295K Btu, vs. the available heat from
the attic: 4100 Btu/F x (130-32) = 402K. Once the attic reached 32 F, it
would require another 600K Btu to freeze it solid. If the outdoor temp were
- 10 F, this would happen in t hours, where

  t(32-(-10))/256ft^2/R10 = 600K, ie t = 558 hours, or 23 days.

My house has an old hand-dug well, with water 9' below the ground. Using this
55 F water to melt snow off the roof or raise the roof temp in colder times
is better than wasting our solar store for that purpose. Melting 3' of snow
requires moving up 295K/(55-32) = 12.8K pounds of water, ie 1600 gallons, eg
3.3 gallons per minute for 8 hours. Keeping the roof at 32 F when it's -10 F
outside without freezing the water requires about 4K Btu/hour, ie 0.36 gpm.
Lifting that water 12' requires less than 1 watt of power, while saving over
1 kW of heat, which seems like an energy bargain.

This roof seems consistent with the spirit of section 1610 of the 1993 BOCA
code, which specs a snow load rating of only 12 psf for continuously-heated
flat greenhouse roofs with R-values of less than 2, where I live. So the roof
might have to support 12 psf of snow, 11 psf of water, and 2 pounds of OSB,
etc, ie 25 psf. If the roof joist wood has a max fiber stress in bending of
f=1,000 psi and the joists are 16" on center, with an L=8' span, the beam
load is W = 25 psf x 4/3' x 8' = 267 pounds, M=WxLx12/8=3200 in-lb, section
modulus S=M/f=3.2 in^3, and joist width b=1.5" requires depth d=sqrt(6S/b)
=3.57". So we might use 2x4s for the roof. 

Another way to make the roof warmer is to add a peaked roof, with a more or
less vertical transparent south roof and a straight or parabolic north roof,
reflective on the underside, eg some foil-faced foamboard with kerfs on the
concave side, screwed to some kerfed and curved north roof rafters, to
concentrate another 1000x4x12'= 48K Btu/day of sun down into a 2' wide
shallow water trench along the north edge. Perhaps half of this heat would
end up in the water, with the remainder heating the space under the roof.

A 10' long x 4" diameter PVC pipe might make a nice water heater, tucked up
under the roof peak, with insulation above, but none below.

An underground warmstore might be better here, so the shed is only about 12'
tall at the peak. The attic would only serve as an active collector, with 9
55 gallon drums in a 8' x 8' x 4' deep hole under the floor, lined with a
single 16 x 16' piece of EPDM rubber, folded up like a Chinese restaurant
take-out box, then 1' of earth, then another 12' x 12' layer of rubber, to
make a 6' x 6' x 3' deep tub, which might have the 9 drums standing up in a
3x3 array, with 6" of water in the tub, and a 6" layer (4 ft^3) of pieces of
closed-cell foam above that. One might heat the drums by pumping up water
through the attic trench during the day, and heat the room by opening a
small damper in the 8x8' insulated frame floor to let some warm air out.
This might be a good way to make a 24-hour vs. 8-hour heated shed, since
the storage water temp would be higher, because of the concentrator.

So where are we, in terms of the steady state energy budget for this shed? 
Suppose it has a flat roof, with a roof pond. When last we looked, the 
room's thermal conductance was 2x96ft^2/R10 + 2x32ft^2/R1 + 2x32ft^2/R10
= 89.6 Btu/hr-F. Hmmm. Over half of that is the bare wood 4x8' areas of the
sidewalls. Suppose we insulate them, so we have an overall room conductance
of 320 ft^2/R10 = 32. On an average December day, the room will need about
8(76-36)32 = 10K Btu to stay warm, and our 4,100 pounds of water in the attic
will keep it warm for about 4100(130-80)/10K = 20 days without sun, if it
starts out at 130 F.

Let's check the steady-state water temperature. On an average December day,
the south wall admits about 144K Btu of heat when the shed is occupied, with
the clerestory thermal shutters open, and the 3 non-south walls need about
7K Btu to keep warm. If the attic water temp is T, 8(T-36)48ft^2/R1 Btu flow
through the windows, the south wall glazing loses about 6(T-36)96ft^2/R1 of
heat to the outside world, 24(T-36)160ft^2/R10 flows out through the attic
walls, and 24(T-64.6)96ft^2/R10 flows out through the roof. So, if the energy
that flows into the structure during an average day equals the energy that
flows out of the structure,

  144K = 7K + 8(T-36)48 + 6(T-36)96 + 24(T-36)16 + 24(T-64.6)9.6
       = 7K + 384T      + 576T      + 384T       + 230.4T
            - 13824     - 20736     - 13824      - 14884
       = 1574.4T - 56268, so

     T = (144K + 56K)/1574 = 127 F.

Let's try double-glazing the windows:

  144K = 7K + 8(T-36)24 + 6(T-36)96 + 24(T-36)16 + 24(T-64.6)9.6
       = 7K + 192T      + 576T      + 384T       + 230.4T
            - 6912      - 20736     - 13824      - 14884
       = 1382.4T - 49356, so

     T = (144K + 49K)/1382 = 140 F. That's better.

This looks like an R10 100% solar house :-) Ignoring air infiltration. A
bigger house should have better thermal performance, with the same R10 walls.
We probably can't make the water much hotter without a selective surface.

This 1000 Btu/ft^2/day was measured with a 20% bare ground reflectivity,
I think. A shallow reflecting pool on the south side of the shed would keep
vegetation from blocking the sun and bounce about 60% of the sun onto the 
shed when frozen, vs 20%, so we'd have 1.6/1.2 = a third more sun. 

In that case, T = (4/3x144K + 49K)/1382 = 174 F. Seems like a good idea...

For how many average sunless days can the shed stay warm? The attic has
a thermal conductance of 256ft^2/R10 = 25.6 with the shutters closed,
and the room need 10K Btu/day to keep it warm for 8 hours, and
when 1 pound of water cools 1 F, it releases 1 Btu, so...

Day  Twater  Qattic   Qhouse   Qtotal    DT = Utotal/4100

0    130 F   58K Btu  10K Btu  68K Btu   16.5 F
1    113.5   48K      10K      58K       14
2    99.5    39K      10K      49K       ...
3    87.5    32K      10K      42K
4    77.3    25K      10K      35K
5    68.7    ...

Not too bad, but let's try changing this around a bit, by hinging the
shutters along the upper edge of the 4' x 4' x 12' attic warmstore, instead
of along the upper edge of the windows. Then the room conductance becomes
about 32 + 48ft^2/R2 = 56, and it needs 8(66-36)56 = 13,440 Btu to stay at
66 F every day, and the attic conductance becomes 17.6 Btu/hr-F, so...

Day  Twater  Qattic   Qhouse     Qtotal     DT = Utotal/4100

0    130 F   40K Btu  13.4K Btu  53.4K Btu  13 F
1    117     34K      13.4K      48K        11.6
2    105.4   29K      13.4K      43K        ...
3    95      25K      13.4K      38K
4    85.6    21K      13.4K      34K
5    77.2    17K      13.4K      31K
6    69.7    ...

That's better. We could improve it more by pumping 0.2 gpm of 55 F water
through the roof pond to keep the roof at 46 F when the sun isn't shining. 
Or we could use R20 or R30 walls. 

In the summer, with some shadecloth over the south wall, the room might 
start out in the morning at 66 F, and the 4 12' walls would have a thermal
conductance of 480 ft^2/R10 = 48 Btu/hr-F. If the daytime high of 86 F
lasted 8 hours, the 4100 lb of water might absorb 8(86-66)48 = 7680 Btu, 
which would raise the water temp about 2 F. If it were 86 F for 24 hours,
the water temp would rise to 72. After a few days of this, we might want
to pump up some of that 55 F groundwater into the attic pond. Keeping the
room at 71 F would require (86-71)48 = 720 Btu/hour, ie 720/(71-55) = 45
pounds of water per hour, or about 0.1 gpm. 

The lower part of the shed south wall might look like this:

             view from inside               east view

                                               R10
      |      foil-faced foam      |        |   wall   |
      |                           |        |          |
      |---------------------------|  ---   |----------|
      |  air  |            | air  |        |/    .    <== cooler attic air  
      |  out  |            | out  |        |     .    .       
      |---------------------------|   |    |     /------------ceiling------
      |       |     air    |      |        |     s    warmer air to attic ==>
      |       |  to attic  |      |   |    |     s
      |        ------------       |        |     s     |
      |        vent area Av       |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     | R10 wall
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |       glazed area A       |   H    |<-G->s<-G->|
      |                           |        |     s     |      room
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |     s     |
      |                           |   |    |     s     |
      |                           |        |           |
      |                           |   |    |\        / |
       ---------------------------   ---    ---------------

This is a simple passive air heating system a la Norman Saunders, PE, or
Steve Baer, in which the sun shines through an outer layer of glazing, onto
a porous absorber surface, with an air gap of dimension G between the glazing
and the absorber, and another between the absorber and the wall. Cooler air
>from  the attic warmstore would be persuaded to flow  down  between the cold
glazing and the absorber, then  up  through the air gap between the absorber
and the wall. This is thermally more efficient than the typical system in
which the solar heated air is in contact with the cold outer glazing.

This R10 wall would have 2" of foil-faced foamboard behind a piece of dark-
painted plywood. No backdraft dampers are needed, because at night the cold
air forms a stagnant pool that just stays in the air heater pocket, since
cold air sinks. 

The width of gap G determines the airflow resistance, in part. Steve Baer
says G might be about H/15, eg 6" for an 8' high wall. Vent area Av might be
about 5% of the glazed area, eg 12' long x 6" tall for a 12' long x 8' tall
glazed wall. The absorber might be one or more layers of black aluminum window
screen, with an absorbing area up to 5 times the window area, large enough 
that most of the heat from the absorber is transferred to the flowing air, vs
having a small-area hot absorber that loses a lot of heat to the glazing by
radiation. One measure of success is glazing and absorber temperatures, the
lower the better. One way to measure these temps is to use an Exergen D501
scanning thermometer (about $1000.)

One way to look at the airflow is to blow some smoke into the collector. The 
useful heat output of the collector is proportional to the product of the
air velocity and the temperature difference between the input and output air.
Steve suggests that 50% solar collection efficiency is a good target.

If the air temp next to the glazing were 136 F on a winter day when it was
36 F outside, and 300 Btu/ft^2/hr arrived inside this shallow sunspace, the  
heat loss through one square foot of R1 glazing would be (136-36)1ft^2/R1
= 100 Btu/hour, and the solar collection efficiency would be 67%.

So... one might build solar houses like this, ie houses that heat themselves
with the sun, and make domestic hot water, with no other form of heat.

Nick

Some useful rules of thumb:

Q (cfm) = 16.6 Av sqrt(H delta T), for a chimney, in which
               Av is the smaller vent area in square feet,
	       H is the chimney height in feet, and
	       delta T is the input/output air temp difference (F).

U = 0.174E-8 Ac (T+460)^4  Btu per hour is re-radiated by an Ac ft^2 surface
               at temperature T (F).  

Full sun is about 300 Btu/ft^2/hour.

1 Btu will heat about 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:27 EDT 1996
Article: 895 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!torn!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: 6 Jun 1996 16:24:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4p7eqj$bct@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

midnite <midnite@algonet.se> wrote:

>Hi!

Hi...

>I am looking for the address to "Giordano Industries" in marseille in
>France. If you know it please let me know. The phonecompany can't find it.

Try writing the periodical "Systemes Solaires" at
                           8, rue de Richelieu
                           75001 Paris
                           FRANCE

Or call them at ;16 (1) 42.96.24.77, fax 16 (1) 42.96.26.43.

Nick



From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Thu Jun 13 23:38:27 EDT 1996
Article: 896 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: TMY2-Data
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 08:18:48 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <31B7C9C8.C29@dortmund.netsurf.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: portc4.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7321 alt.solar.thermal:896 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1354 alt.energy.renewable:15669

Does anybody know, how to read the data in the format TMY2.
I have some data, but can't do anything with them and I don't want to 
download the 6,5 MB documentation.

Thanks in advance
-- 
Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/



From stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:27 EDT 1996
Article: 897 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!inquo!bofh.dot!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!stampke
From: stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Stuart R. Stampke)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Help a solar ignoramous please!
Date: 7 Jun 1996 04:03:00 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4p89lk$acp@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <833815305.16525.0@desiner.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

You might want to ask the questions in 
  alt.solar.photovoltaic     and
  alt.energy.renewable

Other possibilities:
a) The Florida Solar Energy Center.  I don't have a URL for them,
   an email:  sheinkopf@fsec.ucf.edu 
   this is to Ken Sheinkopf, their director of development.  FSEC is a 
   research institute associated with Florida's state university
   system.

b) CREST (Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology),
    a nonprofit goldmine of info.  
    Web pages starting with:  http://solstice.crest.org

And a couple of businesses, both on the Pacific Coast:

c) Alternative Energy Engineering (AEE),  Redway CA, with
   very good web pages at   http://www.nando.net/prof/eco/aee.html
   and an email  Rippner@northcoast.com

d)  Real Goods Trading Company, Ukiah/Hopland Ca 
    Web page:  http://www.well.com/www/realgood

Lot of other good places, but these few I know of.
The web pages listed will start a wonderful tour
of businesses, labs, and info sources.  Good Luck!

--- stuart

 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|  Stuart Stampke             email:   stuart.stampke@csun.edu  |   
|                              or   stampke@alumni.caltech.edu  |  
 ---------------------------------------------------------------  
   Always build on high ground.


From rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:38:28 EDT 1996
Article: 898 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet
From: rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mike Davies")
Subject: Re: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Message-ID: <DsMD5z.K6o@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Compulink Information eXchange
X-Newsreader: PowWow
References: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:37:11 GMT
Lines: 3

i.e. on the tank ?

Mike


From pjm@nando.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:28 EDT 1996
Article: 899 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling - Ask Nick Pine
Date: 7 Jun 1996 21:47:23 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4pa805$m94_001@nando.net>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <4p5eto$mac_001@nando.net> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net> <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail1313.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7328 alt.energy.renewable:15684 alt.architecture.alternative:7196 sci.energy:50866 alt.solar.thermal:899

In article <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>,
   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
~~>Marc L O'Brien <mlobrien@fridgemech.win-uk.net> wrote:
~~>
~~>Ask Nick Pine? **I'm** not a Freon pumper! :-) 

~~>>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:
~~>
~~>>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
~~>>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
~~>>>the same term to describe ).
~~>
~~>Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)

	yeh, here 'tis - back that one up, buddy !  :-0

	How can you make such a statement without working within parameters
of load and delta ?  ( hint - you can't )

	Short cycle ( again, in the context of system usage, not failure
modes )is not a question of percent of running time vs total period, it
is rather the pattern of on/off cycles, and their relative time structures.

	Example #1- hot, hot day, leaky house, poor insulation:

		Unit runs 5 minutes, satisfies, calls again in 5 minutes,
runs 5 again, etc.  That _is_ short cycling, and yet run time is 50 % !

	Example # 2 - 80 degrees outside, dryish, evening

	Unit runs 5 minutes to acheive 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. 
Does not call again for an hour.  That is _not_ short cycling, but run 
time is <10 % !

	Example 2B - same as # 2 above, but set point is 70 - unit runs for
20 minutes, satisfies, and does not call again for until the next afternoon
( seeing as evening has continued to fall, and the temperatures to drop ).
Run time for that period is %trivial, but it is _not_ short cycling !  :-)

	I repeat : There is no quantifiable time period that defines
'short cycling' in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure 
mode contexts we use the same term to describe ).

	Your statement regarding 'nonsense' will taste better with a little
salt, my friend !  :-)

Paul

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/index.html


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:28 EDT 1996
Article: 900 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: AC Short Cycling
Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 121
Message-ID: <4pbne6$odv@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4p4cn0$lsn@news3.cts.com> <77@fridgemech.win-uk.net> <4p706l$8ff@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4pa805$m94_001@nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7338 alt.energy.renewable:15699 alt.architecture.alternative:7198 sci.energy:50875 alt.solar.thermal:900

My short cycling guru friend paul milligan <pjm@nando.net> wrote:
>   nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>~>>paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) writes:

>~>>>       There is no quantifiable time period that defines 'short cycling'
>~>>>in this context ( as opposed to certain other failure mode contexts we use
>~>>>the same term to describe ).

>~~>Nonsense. Less than 10% on-time is a short cycle. Next question? :-)
 
>	How can you make such a statement without working within parameters
>of load and delta ?  ( hint - you can't )

Oops :-)

>	Short cycle ( again, in the context of system usage, not failure
>modes )is not a question of percent of running time vs total period, it
>is rather the pattern of on/off cycles, and their relative time structures.

Hmmm.

>	Example #1- hot, hot day, leaky house, poor insulation:
 
>		Unit runs 5 minutes, satisfies, calls again in 5 minutes,
>runs 5 again, etc.  That _is_ short cycling, and yet run time is 50 % !
 
>	Example # 2 - 80 degrees outside, dryish, evening
 
>	Unit runs 5 minutes to acheive 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. 
>Does not call again for an hour.  That is _not_ short cycling, but run 
>time is <10 % !

Good examples. Perhaps we should say "short cycling is a condition in which
an AC cycles more than 6 times per hour." Or "short cycling is a bicycle trip
of less than 3 miles."

Here are some more examples:

        Example # 3A - 80 degrees outside, 5K Btu AC in an 8' cubical room
at 80 F inside, with 6" concrete walls with a heat capacity of 22 Btu/F-ft^3,
surrounded by 2" of polystyrene foam with an R-value of 10. The walls have
a thermal mass of 8x8x6x6/12x22 = 4224 Btu/F, so the unit runs for 3x4224/5K
= 2.5 hours to achieve 77 inside, satisfies, shuts off. The room with a time
constant of RC = R10/(64x6)x4224 = 110 hours takes t hours to warm to 79 F
where 79 = 80 + (77-80)exp(-t/110) ==> t = -110 ln((80-79)/(80-77)) = 154 hr, 
ie 6 days, then the AC comes on again and cools it to 77 F in 2x4224/5K =
1.7 hours, and so on. Is that short cycling?

        Example # 3B - 80 degrees outside, 5K Btu AC in an 8' cubical room 
at 80 F inside, with 2" polystyrene R10 foam walls with a heat capacity of
0.5 Btu/F-ft^3, surrounded by 6" low-thermal-resistance concrete walls. The
inside walls have a thermal mass of 8x8x6x2/12x0.5 = 32 Btu/F, so the unit
runs for 3x32/5K = 0.0192 hours or 1.15 minutes to achieve 77 inside, shuts
off, the room with a time constant of RC = R10/(64x6)x32 = 0.83 hours takes
-0.83 ln(-1/3) = 1.16 hours to warm to 79 F, the AC comes on again and cools
it to 77 F in 2x32x60/5K = 0.77 minutes, and so on. Is that short cycling? 
 
        Example # 4A - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, 8' cubical room with 6" concrete walls on the inside,
initially 77 F, surrounded by R10 foam. Phila owner takes AC to junkyard, gets
1 cent/pound, and buys a $5 100 Watt window fan at a garage sale. During the
night with the fan on, the concrete walls have a surface air film thermal
conductance of about 2 Btu/hr-F, so the room has an RC time constant of about
1/2/(64*6)x4224 = 5.5 hours. During the day, buttoned up, the room temp rises
to T(8) = 86 + (77-86)exp(-8/110) = 77.6 F, and during every night the owner
turns on the fan for t hours, where 77 = 67 + (77.6-67)exp(-t/5.5), so
t = -5.5 ln((77-67)/(77.6-67)) = 2.14 hr, and so on. Is that short cycling? 

        Example # 4B - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, 8' cubical room with 6" concrete walls on the inside,
initially 77 F, surrounded by R10 foam. Wise Phila owner removes three piece
suit, dons shorts and T-shirt, sells fan and lives in 77.6 F room during the
day, 76.4 F room at night. 

        Example # 5A - 86 F outside 8 hours a day, 67 for 8 hours a day, and
77 for 8 hours a day, Phila owner and loony brother build stone house with
13 million pounds of rocks, including rocks for the roof (see recent Mother
Earth News) and foam the outside with 4" of urethane. RC = 20,800 hours, so
if the house starts out one summer morning at 65 F, by the end of an 86 F
day, the indoor temperature rises to T(8) = 86 + (65-86)exp(-8/20,800)
= 65.00692 F. 

        Example # 5B - From June through August in Philadelphia, when the
average outdoor temp is 74.7 F, the indoor temperature in this house with
a 29 month time constant rises to about 74.7 + (65-74.7)exp(-3/29) = 66 F,
while the brothers open their house sometimes at night to their low-thermal-
mass sunspace with its solar-dried dessicant floor to remove some humidity,
while venting the hot sunspace to the outside on sunny days. A layer of
wood chips or vermiculite or crushed stone or a thin layer of concrete over
foam might work as a dessicant floor...

        Example # 5C - September arrives, with an average daytime high
temperature of 77.6 F, and the owners get ready for winter in this house
with 3,000 ft^2 of walls with 2 million Btu/F of thermal mass with an indoor
surface thermal conductance of about 2 Btu/F, ie an indoor time constant of
1/2/3,000x2 million = 333 hours or 2 weeks, by opening the windows for t
hours during the later part of the month, to raise the house temperature
to 73 F, where 73 =  77.6 - (77.6-66)exp(-t/333), so t = -333 ln(0.39)
= 308 hours or 12.8 days.

        Example # 5D - Winter arrives, with about 6,000 heating degree days,
at a 70 F base temperature, and the house loses 24x6,000x3,000/R30 = 14
million Btu, and cools from 73 to 67 F. The average daily min temps in May
and June are 53 and 62. The brothers open the house up on 10 cool nights in
early spring to allow it to cool to 65 F, and the summer begins again.

        Example # 5E - Loony brothers wear sweaters in winter, T-shirts
in summer, and leave the south-facing windows closed all year :-) 

Nick

PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
the local newspaper, The Collegeville Independent, "Neutral on Nothing--
Accept and defend the truth, whatever the source!" so they could see how their
comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red south wall
with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. They are worried about
the building inspector, so they are thinking of stenciling it with big red 
letters saying "Vietnam--1964-1973," to exempt it from the building code as
self-expression (their publisher's a lawyer :-) They might add "Desert Storm--
1990-1991," in red poster paint, so it will bleed in the rain. 



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:29 EDT 1996
Article: 901 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Combined Solar water + PV panel
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 06:44:01 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31BAAAF1.516@patriot.net>
References: <4oetvp$npe@news.knoware.nl> <31ABB623.7053@patriot.net> <4ogjj8$dg5@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <4oh3pg$jdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31B6C43C.3A55@cimatron.co.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15714 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1361 alt.solar.thermal:901

I am forwarding your question to alt.solar.photovoltaic and alt.solar.thermal

joshua@cimatron.co.il wrote:
> 
> I've been following the posts on this topic. It sounds like a great way
> for me to exploit the local familiarity with solar water panels to
> incorporate some more esoteric (at least locally) technology.
> 
> But your comments on heat affecting PV cell performance has me worried. I
> live in Israel and it gets pretty hot in direct summer sun. On the other
> hand, we have roadside payphones with PV panels on the pole, so there has
> to be a way.
> 
> Where can I get more info? I'm a mechanical engineer, BTW (no guarantee
> of brains, but I've already chewed through large sections of the ASHRAE
> handbooks at my previous job).
> 
> Thanks!
> Joshua

Will Stewart


From schober@zugernet.ch Thu Jun 13 23:38:29 EDT 1996
Article: 902 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!dino.active.ch!usenet
From: Robert Schober <schober@zugernet.ch>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: thermomax solar tubes
Date: 9 Jun 1996 10:52:22 GMT
Organization: Solaroffice Imp. & Exp. CH- 8914 Aeugst a.A
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <4pead6$qvi@dino.active.ch>
References: <4p5l87$tl6@elmo.cadvision.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp11.zugernet.ch
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: scamp@cadvision.com

Yes, send me the pricelist and the documentation
to schober@zugernet.ch

or by snake post to Robert Schober
Ruchacherstrasse
CH- 8914 Aeugst a,Albis
Switzerland



From chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 13 23:38:29 EDT 1996
Article: 903 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!wirrleac.demon.co.uk!chris
From: Chris Laughton <chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Thermomax TMX300 Controller
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 14:25:16 +0100
Organization: The Solar Design Company
Lines: 135
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Ftt58VA8CtuxEwf0@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
References: <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: wirrleac.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.11 <Exv1BnBeD4CIkLENnbM34v5HPf>

In article <DsKIMJ.BEx@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "\"Mike Davies\""
<rovoreed@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes

>Thermomax Solar Panels & the TMX300 controller.
>
>Has anyone got one of these working OK ?

I've fitted about ten systems here in the UK, and all now work good
although I am critical of the manufacturer's suggested layout which is
designed for ease of selling and installation rather than optimum
performance. The collector tubes themselves are high effeciency but it
is important to  optimize of the rest of the system plumbing, control
and integration with the auxillary heating  or else you may as well just
fit cheaper flat-plate collectors.

I find good quality research on these matters hard to find although I am
aware of a few projects in Europe but no hard results yet. To do it
myself would be expensive and time consuming so much of my conclusions
(below) are reasoned rather than scientific. 

 You don't say what type or size of store you are using (one vertical
copper twin coil cylinder ?), the surface area and position of the solar
coil, thickness/ U-value of cylinder insualtion, length of flow and
return pipes and quality of pipe insulation, flow rate (pump type and
speed setting), sealed system or open vented (presumambly sealed ?),
depth of insertion of tank sensor and glycol/water ratio  all of which
are relevant. 

>
>A few weeks ago I moved the pump and non-return valve to the hot side 
>of the hot water tank, and in the process discovered the non-return 
>valve was duff, so replaced it, and now overnight we only loose 2 or 3 
>deg C. :-)
>
A faulty check valve is not an unusual problem. I am not sure what you
mean by 'hot side' but I presume you mean the pump and check valve were
on the return, now they are on the solar primary flow pipe.  I prefer
both items on the return where it is cooler, allows air bubbles to
escape easier and fascillitates draining down.


>The problem now is that we seem to loose a fair bit of temp at the end 
>of the day, say between 5pm & nightfall. :-(
>
>At the end of a typical day, with the sun coming off the panels, a 
>typical set of readings is Collector 63C, Tank 58C, Return 54C.

Yes, typical figures. It would be interesting to use the tank sensor
temporarily on the flow pipe just before it enters the store which will
let me know what pipe losses you have and the performance of the solar
coil. I have had to replace a sensor once because it read 10 C. less
than the other two when all put in a container of hot water ! Lesson
here was, never trust the sensors.


>We have the controller set so that the collector must be above 40C to 
>switch on, also the difference between the Collector & the Return (DT) 
>must be > 8C.
I use 35C as default but suggest 30|C in winter if pipe losses are low
and you have a high performance solar coil. It is a toss up between pipe
losses and parasitic electric pump losses. Cold water comes in, at say
10C, so if you've got a roof manifold full of +20C worth of heat it got
to be worth 2 minutes of pump energy to bring it down or else a cloud
may come and you've lost it for good. Thermomax say that this low
threshold is a result of their experience, which is a bit evasive. Other
controller manufacturers such as  the German Resol don't have such a
feature but use plenty of other tricks to pull down more heat. If you
were cynical you may suggest that this low threshold simply makes the
finished system appear to work better, to the uninitiated, because the
pipes get hotter when the pump is on in the morning.
 Your Delta T of 8C is  large, I usually use 5C as default for similar
reasoning as above.. 

>
>With the return sensor on the return pipe (as it was installed) a 
>typical set of readings through the evening would be
>
>Time      17:30  18:00  19:00  19:30  20:00  20:30  21:30  23:00
>Collector    63     63     60     54     52     49     45     26
>Tank         58     57     56     54     52     50     47     46
>Return       54     54     52     46     45     43     38     25
>
>As you can see, we have effectively lost 11C in just the 4 hours up to 
>21:30, and then it all seems to stabilise, with virtually no more heat 
>loss overnight.

All in all, not too bad. Temperatures may flucuate on the tank sensor
due to stratification and eddy currents in the cylinder. You are likley
to be getting losses up the DHW vent pipe if it is not insulated. This
can also be prevented by Teeing the DHW draw-off immediatley at the
cylinder top, keeping the vent just above horizontal for as long as
possible in the airing cupoard before  before going true vertical to the
CWS tank in the loft. Similar story for the Rayburn primary vent and
cold feed if they are located in the cylinder cupboard ( and you have a
twin coil cylinder). Don't forget the solar primaries can only 'steal'
heat from the lowest and coolest part of the store. Also heat losses are
greater at higher temperatures. What is your exterior and internal air
temperatures over these times ? Possible closing of windows near
cylinder later at night ? I would plump for improving insulation at top
of cylinder. The decay of the return sensor does seem a bit slow however
>
>Has anyone any suggestions as to what can be happening here ? It can't 
>be convection currents. I've knocked that on the head, so the pump must 
>be switching on and extracting heat like it used to overnight. For the 
>pump to switch on, Collector must be above 40C & DT must be > 8C, so 
>either the return is cooling quicker than the collector, or, what ?
>
You may be getting one-pipe thermosyphoning up to the solar return pipe
but unlikley as the return should be at the lowest/coolest point in the
cylinder and this pipe only needs to be 15 mm.. Is the return sensor
well insualted ?  As your return sensor is in a pipe with low thermal
mass,  I would expect a rapid decay compared to the collector for the
same ambient temperature. This I consider a flaw in the normal running
of the system. The return should represent the ability of the solar coil
to transfer heat to the secondary water hence the return sensor should
be inserted about halfway up the hight of the solar coil, actually
immersed in the secondary water, close to but not touching the coil
itself. The Thermomax method can promote short cycling during hot
weather. 

>We are using it for domestic hot water. In the winter we use a coal 
>fired stove which also does the radiators. In the summer we use the 
>sun.
As an aside, it is usually possible to temporary increase Rayburn heated
storage by a mid position valve, controlled by an adjustable pipe stat (
although not with a solar sealed system)  which is useful if you are
doing a lot of cooking in winter and require extra hot water.

-- 
Chris Laughton   Tel/Fax 0151 606 0207   The Solar Design Company
57 Wood Lane, Greasby, Wirral, L49 2PU.  






From svsaga@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:30 EDT 1996
Article: 904 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: "M. J. Clark" <svsaga@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 13:39:57 -0700
Organization: SV Saga
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31BB369D.1A69@ix.netcom.com>
References: <morris.277.00254881@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
NNTP-Posting-Host: stp-fl6-09.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 12:36:14 PM CDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win16; I)
To: Mike Morris <morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107480 alt.energy.renewable:15721 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1362 alt.solar.thermal:904 sci.energy:50913

Mike Morris wrote:

  snip

> I currently scan misc.consumers.house, alt.energy.renewable,
> alt.solar.{photovoltaic thermal}, comp.home.{automation misc}
> misc.consumers.{house frugal-living},sci.energy, sci.engineering.heat-vent-ac,
> sci.electronics, sci.electronics.{repair equipment}, and I see
> ocasional postings that pertains to the concerns expressed above. But it's too
> musch to expect everyone to scan all of those groups all the time.

  snip

For what its worth, rec.boats and rec.boats.cruising carry occasional
threads concerning wind generators and photo-voltaics.  Both are quite common
on cruising sailboats.  There are frequent threads on deep cycle batteries,
battery charging, and inverters.

Regards

Malcolm Clark
aboard SV Saga
on Tampa Bay


From nomad29@aol.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:30 EDT 1996
Article: 905 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: nomad29@aol.com (NOMAD29)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: 9 Jun 1996 22:31:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: nomad29@aol.com (NOMAD29)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
for the project.  any ideas??

Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
house.  Any feelings pro or con??

The settleing NOMAD


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:30 EDT 1996
Article: 906 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: 11 Jun 1996 07:08:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 128
Message-ID: <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:906 alt.energy.renewable:15745 sci.energy:51000 alt.architecture.alternative:7208

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>NOMAD29 wrote:
>> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> for the project.  any ideas??

It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.

>> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
>> house.  Any feelings pro or con??

Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

>I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with 
>DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
>build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
>photovoltaics.

Sounds good...

>See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house) is fairly
expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a separate solar
water heating system. It gets off the mark in a house race, but quickly tires
in the backstretch, in partly cloudy climates, vs houses built with exactly
the same materials, or less expensive materials, in a different configuration.

>A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering, Inc at 508.677.3533.
>The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.

You might ask Lyle for the isolated gain, isolated store model :-)
 
Nick

They're off!

               Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
               gain,         gain,         gain and      store
Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
 
 0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
 1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625  
 2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358 
 3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387 
 4             70            70            70            83.32878 
 5             70            70            70            91.93831 
 6             70            70            70            100.2529 
 7             70            70            70            108.2827 
 8             70            70            70            116.0375 
 9             70            70            70            123.5266 
 10            70            70            70            130.7591 
 11            70            70            70            137.7439 
 12            70            70            70            144.4895 
 13            70            70            70            151.004 
 14            70            70            70            157.2953 
turn off the sun...
 15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516 
 16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111 
 17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719 
 18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329 
 19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925 
 20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493 
 21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402 
 22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491 
 23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922 
 24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111 
 25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339 
 26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479 
 27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054 
 28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976 
 29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326 
 30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962 

10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
80 PRINT#,
90 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated"
100 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
110 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
120 PRINT#1,
130 'warmup over a long string of average Phila December days
140 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
150 RWALL=13'US R-value of walls
160 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
170 TA=36'average outdoor December temp in Phila (F)
180 SUNIN = 8*8*1000'average daily solar input (Btu)
190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures
195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather
240 E2=6*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
250 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
260 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
270 E3=6*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
275 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
280 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
285 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
290 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
295 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
310 NEXT DAY
340 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
345 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
346 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
350 FOR DAY=15 TO 30'simulate two weeks of cloudy days
360 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
370 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
380 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70
390 E2=0*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
400 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
410 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
430 E3=0*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
440 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
450 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
455 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
460 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212
470 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
480 NEXT DAY
500 CLOSE



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:31 EDT 1996
Article: 907 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 05:10:38 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-26.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U)

NOMAD29 wrote:
> 
> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> for the project.  any ideas??
> 
> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> 
> The settleing NOMAD

I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with 
DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
photovoltaics.

See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.  A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering, 
Inc at 508.677.3533.  The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com Thu Jun 13 23:38:31 EDT 1996
Article: 908 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!watnews2!meir
From: meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com (Meir Laker)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: 11 Jun 96 17:42:58
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fiasco.watson.ibm.com
In-reply-to: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu's message of 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7376 alt.energy.renewable:15755 alt.architecture.alternative:7210 sci.energy:51039 alt.solar.thermal:908

   From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
   Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
   
   PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
   the local newspaper, . . .  so they could see how their
   comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red south wall
   with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 

Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?

--
Meir Laker 

IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center      
P.O. Box 218, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598    
Phone: 914-945-2699  
Tieline: 862-2699

meir@watson.ibm.com




From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:31 EDT 1996
Article: 909 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!lamont.ldeo.columbia.edu!news.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!cbgw1.att.com!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:34:49 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-19.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:909 alt.energy.renewable:15757 sci.energy:51042 alt.architecture.alternative:7211

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >NOMAD29 wrote:
> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> >> for the project.  any ideas??
> 
> It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.
> 
> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> 
> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.

> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> >DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
> >build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
> >photovoltaics.
> 
> Sounds good...
> 
> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
> 
> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)

It is not a Trombe wall house.

> is fairly
> expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a separate solar
> water heating system.

You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...

Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.

>                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
> Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
> 
>  0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
>  1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625
>  2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358
>  3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387
>  4             70            70            70            83.32878
>  5             70            70            70            91.93831
>  6             70            70            70            100.2529
>  7             70            70            70            108.2827
>  8             70            70            70            116.0375
>  9             70            70            70            123.5266
>  10            70            70            70            130.7591
>  11            70            70            70            137.7439
>  12            70            70            70            144.4895
>  13            70            70            70            151.004
>  14            70            70            70            157.2953
> turn off the sun...
>  15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516
>  16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111
>  17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719
>  18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329
>  19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925
>  20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493
>  21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402
>  22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491
>  23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922
>  24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111
>  25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339
>  26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479
>  27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054
>  28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976
>  29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326
>  30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962
> 
> 10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
> 20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.

R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.
The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

> 30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
> 40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
> 50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
> 60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
> 70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
> 80 PRINT#,
> 90 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated"
> 100 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
> 110 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
> 120 PRINT#1,
> 130 'warmup over a long string of average Phila December days
> 140 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
> 150 RWALL=13'US R-value of walls
> 160 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
> 170 TA=36'average outdoor December temp in Phila (F)
> 180 SUNIN = 8*8*1000'average daily solar input (Btu)
> 190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures
> 195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
> 200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
> 205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this,
Nick?  The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the
room.  This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
fireplance.  Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
heat input?

Have you no shame?

> 240 E2=6*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 250 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
> 260 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
More bogus rules.

> 270 E3=6*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
> 275 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
> 280 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
> 285 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
> 290 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
> 295 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
> 310 NEXT DAY
> 340 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
> 345 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
> 346 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
> 350 FOR DAY=15 TO 30'simulate two weeks of cloudy days
> 360 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 370 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
> 380 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More bogus rules.
 
> 390 E2=0*(TM2-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-36)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 400 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
> 410 IF TM2>70 THEN TM2=70
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More number cooking

> 430 E3=0*(TM3-36)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-36)*32/RWALL
> 440 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-36)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
> 450 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
> 455 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
> 460 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212
> 470 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
> 480 NEXT DAY
> 500 CLOSE

Back to the drawing board yet again, Nick.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:32 EDT 1996
Article: 910 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!osshe.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: 12 Jun 1996 00:28:23 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4plh17$rs9@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7385 alt.energy.renewable:15762 alt.architecture.alternative:7212 sci.energy:51055 alt.solar.thermal:910

Meir Laker <meir@fiasco.watson.ibm.com> wrote:
    
> PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
> the local newspaper... so they could see how their comfort and AC bills
> change when they hang it over their barn red south wall with R11 insulation
> and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 
 
>Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
>keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?
 
Yes, but that black is what I happened to have around... And they plan to put
some transparent polycarbonate siding over their shadecloth in the fall, to
make a huge inexpensive solar air heater. For that, a dark color is better.

For summer shading, black is cool, as long as there is an air gap behind it
and at the top. They would like red, eventually. Shadecloth comes in black,
red, green, gunmetal gray, white, aluminized, sandlewood, etc. Home Depot
sells a nice ~100% black furry polypropylene shadecloth ("landscape fabric") 
that is still fairly porous to air, made by DeWitt (800) 888-9609, for $78
for a 4' wide x 250' long roll, with no hems or grommets, but it would not
let much light in through windows, unlike 80%, which looks like a window
screen from the inside, or makes a moire pattern if there is already a
window screen in place..

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:32 EDT 1996
Article: 911 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ub!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: A house race
Date: 12 Jun 1996 01:39:12 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:911 alt.energy.renewable:15763 sci.energy:51063 alt.architecture.alternative:7213

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >NOMAD29 wrote:
>> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> >> for the project.  any ideas??
>> 
>> It's a good idea to find an engineer to help.

Or a physicist...

>> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
>> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??
>> 
>> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)
>
>A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.

Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?
 
>> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
>> >DOE...

>> Sounds good...

Did you say DOE? :-)

>> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
>> 
>> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
>
>It is not a Trombe wall house.

It's essentially a Trombe wall house, from a thermal point of view.
Direct gain, storage at close to room temp, ritual night insulation...
This has been around since 1881, with variations. It's time to do it better.

>> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
>> separate solar water heating system.
 
>You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
>ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...
 
Norman Saunders, PE, Howard Reichmuth, PE, William Shurcliff, PhD,
William Beckman, PhD, John Duffie, PhD, and Steve Baer make a lot of
sense to me. I've talked with them all. Norman and Steve are American
Solar Energy Society Passive Solar Pioneers, and I've spent a few days 
talking over solar closets with each of them in person. I had the good
fortune to drive Norman from Boston to Lewiston, Maine in February, for 
the Maine Solar Energy Association's Sustainable Building Conference,
where Norman was one of the speakers at the session I moderated on
passive heating and cooling techniques. Norman is amazing. He's 80 years
old now, and he got into solar heating in 1944. At the moment, he's
helping design solar houses in Pennsylvania, California, and the UK.
Of course, he's no Will Stewart :-)

>Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
>his thesis statements.

Your CS degree is showing... :-) How many 3rd graders can understand C?
How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?

>Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end up at 70 F.

This is the magic of temperature control by ventilation in the winter...
In houses with thermal stores with  no  insulation between the heat store
and the living space, like yours, you have to live inside the heat store.
So, during sunny weather, if you want to store heat for more cloudy days,
you have to live in a warmer house. How warm a house can you tolerate?
These houses work better if you are willing to let their indoor temps rise
to a high value in sunny times, and walk around in T-shirts and shorts in 
December. I picked 70 F as the upper limit for this sunny day house temp
limit. Perhaps I should have picked 80 F. Are you willing to live in a
house that is 80 F in December? The results don't change much.

>The answer is buried in the 'code'.

Not all that buried...  Compare this to some inscrutable C constructs:

>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather

>>                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>>                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
>> Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
>> 
>>  0             36 F          36 F          36 F          36 F
>>  1             51.625        51.625        51.625        51.625
>>  2             62.06671      63.92594      64.2358       64.2358
>>  3             69.04458      70            70            74.41387
>>  4             70            70            70            83.32878
>>  5             70            70            70            91.93831
...

>>  13            70            70            70            151.004
>>  14            70            70            70            157.2953
>> turn off the sun...
>>  15            58.72116      64.11539      70            150.1516
>>  16            51.18385      59.24927      70            143.111
>>  17            46.1469       55.22536      70            136.1719
>>  18            42.78086      51.89789      70            129.3329
>>  19            40.53144      49.14633      70            122.5925
>>  20            39.02822      46.87101      70            115.9493
>>  21            38.02367      44.98949      70            109.402
>>  22            37.35235      43.43362      70            102.9491
>>  23            36.90374      42.14703      70            96.58922
>>  24            36.60394      41.08312      70            90.32111
>>  25            36.4036       40.20335      70            84.14339
>>  26            36.26971      39.47585      70            78.05479
>>  27            36.18024      38.87426      70            72.054
>>  28            36.12045      38.37679      66.13976      66.13976
>>  29            36.08049      37.96542      60.92326      60.92326
>>  30            36.05379      37.62525      56.60962      56.60962
                      ^             ^                          ^
These are simple exponential decays |         So is this ------       
      well-known in heatflow                  But who cares, until it
                                              cools to 70 F?

>> 10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
>> 20 '  R13 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
>
>R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.

I suppose your house will be larger than an 8' cube too. This was just
an example of how the same materials can be arranged well or not so well,
>from  a solar performance point of view.

>The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

True. That's house 2 above, if you cripple it slightly more.

>> 30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
>> 40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
>> 50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
>> 60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
>> 70 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
...

>> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
>> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?

That's my guess at how warm a house somebody might tolerate in sunny
winter weather. What's your limit, Will? Another issue for direct gain
houses is privacy, as Kurt Smith of Avis mentions. Or lack thereof, and
the interaction with house temperatures. One can only take off so much
clothing, with all those windows, especially near Washington, DC.

>The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room. 

A few degrees above, for a few minutes... Recall the half-hour time constant
for these water walls. We have discussed that before, but you didn't seem
to be listening. You are in a difficult psychological posture. Try this:
T(t) = 70 + (80-70)exp(-t/30), where t is in minutes.

>This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
>fireplance.

I understand such fireplances, but what do they have to do with solar heating?

>Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
>heat input?

Is this a metaphysical or a physical question? The heat goes in one side
of those (opaque, window blocking?) water walls and out both sides, almost
immediately, heating the room air. This is similar to a person for whom 
ideas go in one ear and out the other. Mark Twain said perhaps such a person
should take out his brain and dance on it, to soften it up.
 
>Have you no shame?

I tell the truth, as I see it.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:32 EDT 1996
Article: 912 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:16:28 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 183
Message-ID: <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7386 alt.solar.thermal:912 alt.energy.renewable:15764 sci.energy:51070 alt.architecture.alternative:7214

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >NOMAD29 wrote:
>> >> I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
>> >> built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
>> >> for the project.  any ideas??
 
>> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

>> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
>> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
>> separate solar water heating system.
 
>R13 walls are far below the R24 walls that are in the Avis home walls.

OK. Let's change them all to R24.

I suppose your house will be larger than an 8' cube too. This was just
an example of how the same materials can be arranged well or not so well,
>from  a solar performance point of view.

>The R2 windows ignore the window shade insulation that would be used.

True. That's house 2, if you cripple it slightly more.

>> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
>I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?

>What's your limit, Will?

Let's use 80 F as a house upper temp limit, disguised below as:

205 TU=80'upper temp limit for wall store houses (F)

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
>wstewart@patriot.net wrote:

>| Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
>| his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
>| up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.
>| 
>| >                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
>| >                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
>| > Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
>
>Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
>least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. The 70 degree limit
>would then be regulated by the homeowner who opens a window or closes a
>vent (or has some automatic (magic?) mechanism do this) so that the temp
>doesn't exceed 70.

Right. Or 80 F now, as below. BTW, a nice way to do winter ventilation
for a house might be to move open a hinged piece of foil-faced foamboard
with a $50 Honeywell damper actuator that uses 2 Watts when it is moving,
and 0 Watts when in a fixed position, connected to a cooling thermostat.
A less accurate and leakier way might be to use an automatic foundation vent
with some aluminum louvers that move with a bimetallic spring, such as
Leslie-Locke's FV-1B, which Home Depot sells for $11.83. Drill a hole in
the aluminum bracket covering the spiral spring and adjust the spring mount
with a screwdriver so the vent is open at 80 F, and mount it inside-out,
so the spring is exposed to house air.

>If the house gets above 70, that would be nice for those who like it hot,
>I guess, and would make the house cool down to an unacceptable temp more
>slowly, but probably wouldn't be desirable for most people.

Agreed. Here's the race again, with some NREL numbers for Providence, RI...

They're off!

               Direct        Isolated      Isolated     Isolated
               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store
Day            store         store         store        temp
 
 0             33.8 F        33.8 F        33.8 F        33.8 F
 1             44.7025       44.7025       44.7025       44.7025 
 2   House 1   53.4434       54.97771      55.51239      55.51239 
 3   is a      59.8625       63.8481       65.32996      65.32996 
 4             64.57653      71.50574      70            74.24631 
 5   s         68.03838      78.11644      70 House 3    82.60956 
 6   l         70.58069      80            70 is always  90.72779 
 7   o         72.4477       80 The        70 the same.  98.60819 
 8   w         73.81877      80 ritual     70 A good     106.2577 
 9             74.82566      80 thermal    70 house for  113.6831 
 10  starter.  75.5651       80 curtains   70 reptiles?  120.891 
 11            76.10812      80 help       70            127.8877 
 12            76.5069       80 house      70            134.6794 
 13            76.79975      80 2.         70            141.2722 
 14            77.01482      80            70            147.6718 

House 1 one never quite makes it to 80 F, in 2 weeks of average December
weather. I would say house 2 is too hot, but chacun a son chaleur...
BTW, these are max temps for houses 1 and 2. They will be cooler at night,
vs house 3, which could be cooler at night, if it had a setback thermostat.

House 2 now has a fairly respectable RC time constant of 256 hours, and its
performance is not bad... House 1 is much poorer, with about 45 hours.
Will's Avis house might be about 53 hours, including the water walls,
with all the curtains drawn 24 hour a day, IF they work perfectly. 
How much do they cost, Will? And how do air leaks affect them?

Now let's turn off the sun again...

 15            65.27026      75.575        70            143.5775 
 16            56.64535<--   71.56485      70            139.5151 
 17  Houses    50.31143      67.93063      70   Look     135.4845 
 18  1 and 2   45.65995 too  64.63714      70   how      131.4854 
 19  get cold  42.24403 cold 61.65241      70   nicely   127.5176 
 20  very      39.73546      58.94749      70   house 3  123.5807 
 21  quickly   37.89323  --> 56.49616      70   rides    119.6746 
 22  since     36.54034      54.27465      70   out      115.799 
 23  their     35.54681      52.2614       70   almost   111.9537 
 24  thermal   34.81719      50.4369       70   3 weeks  108.1385 
 25  mass      34.28137      48.78343      70   of       104.353 
 26  was       33.88788      47.28499      70   cloudy   100.5971 
 27  never     33.59892      45.92702      70   weather  96.87059 
 28  very      33.3867       44.69636      70   tra la   93.17316 
 29  warm...   33.23086      43.58108      70   tra la   89.50462 
 30  And       33.11641      42.57035      70   ...      85.86474 
 31  house 1   33.03237      41.65438      70   :-)      82.25331 
 32  has that  32.97064      40.82428      70            78.67008 
 33  B I G     32.92532      40.072        70            75.11484 
 34  bare      32.89203      39.39025      70            71.58738 
 35  window.   32.86759      38.77242      68.08748      68.08748 

Looks like house 3 finishes 19 days ahead of the nearest contender,
if you call 68 F and 80 F comfortable interior temperatures.

10 'a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
20 '  R24 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
30 '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
40 '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
50 '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
60 OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
70 PRINT#1,
80 PRINT#1,"They're off!"
100 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated     Isolated"
110 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
120 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
130 PRINT#1,
140 'warmup over a long string of average December days
150 RWIND=2'US R-value of window
160 RWALL=24'US R-value of walls
170 C=4096'thermal mass (Btu/F)
180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)
190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)
200 TM1=TA:TM2=TA:TM3=TA'initialize thermal mass temperatures
205 TU=80'upper temp limit for wall store houses (F)
210 TLIM=TA'initialize limiting temp for isolated store house
220 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
240 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
250 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'calculate new thermal mass temp
260 IF TM1>TU THEN TM1=TU'ventilate house to limit indoor temp
270 E2=6*(TM2-TA)*64/RWIND+18*(TM2-TA)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-TA)*5*64/RWALL
280 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
290 IF TM2>TU THEN TM2=TU
300 E3=6*(TM3-TLIM)*32/RWIND+18*(TM3-TA)*32/RWALL'south wall loss
310 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-TA)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
320 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
330 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
340 IF TM3>212 THEN TM3=212'water boils
350 PRINT#1, DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
370 NEXT DAY
380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
390 SUNIN=0'turn off the sun
400 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
410 FOR DAY=15 TO 35'simulate three weeks of cloudy days
430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
440 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C
450 E2=0*(TM2-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM2-TA)*64/RWALL+24*(TM2-TA)*5*64/RWALL
460 TM2=TM2+(SUNIN-E2)/C
470 E3=0*(TM3-TLIM)*32/RWIND+24*(TM3-TA)*32/RWALL'south wall loss
480 E3=E3+24*(TLIM-TA)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
490 TM3=TM3+(SUNIN-E3)/C
500 IF TM3<70 THEN TLIM=TM3 ELSE TLIM=70
520 PRINT#1,DAY,TM1,TM2,TLIM,TM3
540 NEXT DAY
550 CLOSE
 
Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:33 EDT 1996
Article: 913 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Nick, Nick, Nick
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:19:09 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 174
Message-ID: <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-5.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:913 alt.energy.renewable:15782 sci.energy:51105 alt.architecture.alternative:7219

[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time.  Nick wanders away and
we have to gently lead back to his cell^h^h^h^h room]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >Nick Pine wrote:

> >> >> Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> >> >> house.  Any feelings pro or con??

> >> Did you say you wanted a "solar" house? :-)

> >A home can be passive solar AND have a fireplace.
 
> Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
> sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
> merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
> more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?

So sailboats with motors are no longer sailboats?  I have to admit, you continue
to amaze me...  Bought any 12 watt rabbits, lately?

> >> >I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> >> >DOE...
> 
> >> Sounds good...
> 
> Did you say DOE? :-)

Are you hard of hearing?
 
> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.

A publication of the American Solar Engineering Society.

> >> That sort of house (house 1 below, essentially a Trombe wall house)
> >
> >It is not a Trombe wall house.
> 
> It's essentially a Trombe wall house, from a thermal point of view.
> Direct gain, storage at close to room temp,

By what measure?  Feel free to invent things right off the top of your head.

> ritual night insulation...
> This has been around since 1881, with variations. It's time to do it better.

Go do so.

> >> is fairly expensive and low-performance, as solar houses go, and needs a
> >> separate solar water heating system.
> 
> >You'll have to pardon our local eccentric, Nick Pine.  His ideas are the only
> >ones worth considering.  If you don't believe that, just ask him...
> 
> Norman Saunders, PE, Howard Reichmuth, PE, William Shurcliff, PhD,
> William Beckman, PhD, John Duffie, PhD, and Steve Baer make a lot of
> sense to me.

I'll let them speak for themselves.  And a PE or PhD doesn't make a person a 
god, merely respectable, so stop worshipping.

> I've talked with them all. 

That doesn't make you a god, either.

> >Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
> >his thesis statements.
> 
> Your CS degree is showing... :-) How many 3rd graders can understand C?

Earth to Nick...

> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?

Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.

> >Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end up at 70 F.
 
> This is the magic of temperature control by ventilation in the winter...
> In houses with thermal stores with  no  insulation between the heat store
> and the living space, like yours, you have to live inside the heat store.
> So, during sunny weather, if you want to store heat for more cloudy days,
> you have to live in a warmer house. How warm a house can you tolerate?
> These houses work better if you are willing to let their indoor temps rise
> to a high value in sunny times, and walk around in T-shirts and shorts in
> December. I picked 70 F as the upper limit for this sunny day house temp
> limit. Perhaps I should have picked 80 F. Are you willing to live in a
> house that is 80 F in December? The results don't change much.

Not that your code can be trusted anyway.
 
> >The answer is buried in the 'code'.
> 
> Not all that buried...  Compare this to some inscrutable C constructs:
> 
> >> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather

You make this assertion but fail to support it.
 
> >> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> >> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
> >> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> >I've never heard of this rule before; where did you come up with this, Nick?
> 
> That's my guess at how warm a house somebody might tolerate in sunny
> winter weather. What's your limit, Will? Another issue for direct gain
> houses is privacy, as Kurt Smith of Avis mentions. Or lack thereof, and
> the interaction with house temperatures. One can only take off so much
> clothing, with all those windows, especially near Washington, DC.

I wasn't planning on going nude where neighbors could see me.  The lots I'm
looking at are all over 5 acres.

You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection.  Do you understand how
to calculate convection?
 
> >The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room.
> 
> A few degrees above, for a few minutes... Recall the half-hour time constant
> for these water walls. We have discussed that before, but you didn't seem
> to be listening. 

You failed to supply a reasonable calculation.  A little bit of knowledge is
a dangerous thing.  Perhaps you should start another quiz so that you can 
pick up a few more formulas>.

>You are in a difficult psychological posture.

Quack, heal thyself.

> Try this:
> T(t) = 70 + (80-70)exp(-t/30), where t is in minutes.
> 
> >This explains why you don't understand the concept of a masonry heater
> >fireplance.
> 
> I understand such fireplances, but what do they have to do with solar heating?

Thermal mass, silly.  Do you think they are right at room temperature?
How do you think they can continue warming a room for up to 24 hours?
Perhaps you should learn something from one of those people you worship.
 
> >Do you think that the thermal store is simply going to stop accepting
> >heat input?
> 
> Is this a metaphysical or a physical question? The heat goes in one side
> of those (opaque, window blocking?) water walls and out both sides, almost
> immediately, heating the room air.

By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.  
You're in new and strange territory here, Nick.  Ohm's law only takes an 
EE so far in thermodynamics...

> This is similar to a person for whom
> ideas go in one ear and out the other. Mark Twain said perhaps such a person
> should take out his brain and dance on it, to soften it up.

*THAT'S* what you've been up to; that explains everything....
 
> >Have you no shame?
> 
> I tell the truth, as I see it.

The former is seldom, the latter, obvious.
 
Cheers,
 
Will Stewart


From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:33 EDT 1996
Article: 914 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-19.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:46:15 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-19.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7413 alt.solar.thermal:914 alt.energy.renewable:15783 sci.energy:51108 alt.architecture.alternative:7221

In article <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

| 180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)
| 190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)

| 380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days

| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL

Here's what I'm wondering. Shouldn't one really use not a string of avg
winter temp days, but a string of nasty, colder-than-usual, cloudy ones?
Say a week or two of a nasty arctic air mass stuck in your region.

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:33 EDT 1996
Article: 915 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 13 Jun 1996 02:21:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7415 alt.solar.thermal:915 alt.energy.renewable:15785 sci.energy:51111 alt.architecture.alternative:7223

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
 
>| 180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)

>| 190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)
                      ^-- these are for glazing transmission loss, BTW.

>| 380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
 
>| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
 
That's for a direct gain house. For an isolated gain house, eg one with
a low-thermal-mass sunspace, on a cloudy day we have lower loss:

>| 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/Rwall+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
                         ^^^^^--much higher

>Here's what I'm wondering. Shouldn't one really use not a string of avg
>winter temp days, but a string of nasty, colder-than-usual, cloudy ones?
>Say a week or two of a nasty arctic air mass stuck in your region.

Sure. But this is a starting point. It seems to me that one can design a
good sunspace and solar closet house with just two numbers: the average
temp in the coldest month and the average amount of sun that falls on a
south wall. Successive refinements might be to look up the average daytime
high in that month, and use that number instead of the 24 hour average temp,
for the sunspace collection efficiency, to do a TMY2 simulation for the
house, using hourly NREL weather data for a typical meteorological year,
and to do a simulation using hourly weather data for the last 30 years,
>from  one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.
It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:34 EDT 1996
Article: 916 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Date: 13 Jun 1996 03:33:14 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7416 alt.solar.thermal:916 alt.energy.renewable:15786 sci.energy:51112 alt.architecture.alternative:7224

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time...

Feeling uncomfortable, Will? :-)

>Nick Pine wrote:
>> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
>
>A publication of the American Solar Engineering Society.

My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."

>> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
>> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?
>
>Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.

I have yet to see one... These calculations are just HVAC craftsmanship, not
"thermodynamics." (Is "electro-mechanical engineering" pinball machines? :-)

>You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
>room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
>color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. Do you understand how
>to calculate convection?

Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.

>> >The thermal store can be far above the ambient temperature of the room.

Not for long.

>>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
>>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.

>By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.  

My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...

If you close your curtains at 3 PM, and keep your solar house at 70 F all
night by burning wood, by 9 AM the next morning, the water walls might have
a temperature  

T(t) = 70 + (109-70)exp(-18/7) = 73 F.

If the next day is cloudy, and you leave your curtains closed, and keep
your solar house at 70 F by burning wood for the next 24 hours, the next
morning your water walls might have a temperature of 

T(t) = 70 + (109-70)exp(-42/7) = 70.1 F.
 
Suppose you didn't burn wood the first night. As I recall, your house had
an overall U value of about 150 Btu/hr-F. So over 18 night hours, at 30 F
outside, it would need about 18(70-36)150 = 92K Btu to stay warm. The 3300
lb of water walls and 1000 Btu/F (?) of house would need to cool 92K/4.3K 
= 21 degrees F to do that, so in the morning, your solar house and water
walls would have a temperature of about 70-21 = 49 F.

Over the next 24 hours, if it's 30 F outside, and you keep all of the thermal
curtains drawn all day, and they insulate as well as you say they will (who
makes these curtains, anyhow, and how much do they cost?) your house would
need less than 24(49-30)150 = 68K Btu to stay at 49 F, so after another day
your solar house and water walls would be at least 49 - 68K/4.3K = 33 F...

You could do these calculations in more detail, if you desired. 

The results wouldn't change much.

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:34 EDT 1996
Article: 917 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-15.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:20:53 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-15.dialip.mich.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7419 alt.solar.thermal:917 alt.energy.renewable:15792 sci.energy:51121 alt.architecture.alternative:7226

In article <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

| Successive refinements might be to look up the average daytime
| high in that month, and use that number instead of the 24 hour average temp,
| for the sunspace collection efficiency, to do a TMY2 simulation for the
| house, using hourly NREL weather data for a typical meteorological year,
| and to do a simulation using hourly weather data for the last 30 years,
| from one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.

Yeah, this is what I meant.

| It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...

Right (having lived in MN where those cold Canadian air masses are often
cloudless), but you would build for a 30-yr (or 10-yr or some other
long-term) low, not for typical winter days, right? (Though avg days are
fine for a quick comparison of types.)

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:34 EDT 1996
Article: 918 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:45:04 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7420 alt.solar.thermal:918 alt.energy.renewable:15793 sci.energy:51122 alt.architecture.alternative:7227

[followups to alt.solar.thermal for the umpteenth +1 time...]

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> 
> >[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time...
> 
> Feeling uncomfortable, Will? :-)

Trying to reduce the embarrassment you create for yourself...

> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
 
> My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."

Do you have any problems with this organization, or are they all ignorant
and criminal, too?
 
> >> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
> >> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?
> >
> >Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.
> 
> I have yet to see one... These calculations are just HVAC craftsmanship, not
> "thermodynamics." 

I wonder how many people in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac would consider you an
HVAC "craftsman"...  

Perhaps an understanding of thermodynamics should be your foundation for 
HVAC calculations, as is the normal in engineering schools.  Don't forget 
you are posting to sci.ENGR.heat-vent-ac.  You continue to strip away all 
of my followups to alt.solar.thermal, so you must suffer the consequent 
loss of face.  If you are trying to attract clients, this isn't a very good
approach.

> >You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
> >room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
> >color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. Do you understand how
> >to calculate convection?
> 
> Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
> Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
> similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.

Convection equivalents are not so cut and dry.  Newton's law of cooling is;

qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

where 
  hc= average convection heat-transfer coefficient over the surface A
      in W/m2*K (Btu/hr*ft^2*F).  hc for air, free convection is 
      1-5 Btu/hr*ft^2*F 

  Ts= Surface temp
  Tf= Undisturbed fluid temperature

Because the thermal store wall will be resting on a perpendicular floor, and
will have a perpendicular table top extending 18 inches into the room, I will
assume an hc value of 1 for purposes of discussion.  The wall design is not 
completely set; one design I am looking at is 10'x2.5'x8", which is slightly 
different from 10'x4'x4".  This design would give a storage per wall at 
16.6 ft^3 X 7.48 gal/ft^3 X 8.33 lb/gal = 1041 Btu storage for each degree F 
delta T.  If they are exposed to 700 Btus/hr ft^2 solar insolation through
dual pane windows, then;

Each storage wall will receive 25 X 700 = 17500 Btus during the day.

With 4 walls, that translates to 17,500 x 4 = 70,000 Btus.

Of course each window group has an addition 50 ft^2 of window space that bypasses 
the thermal storage walls, so another 140,000 Btus will enter those windows.

Two more south window groups do not have thermal storage walls (will likely have
storage floors, such as slate or dark tile on concrete),
so 2 x 70 x 700 = 98,000 Btus additional input.

70K + 140K + 98K = ~310,000 Btus of solar insolation input on an average December day
(January and February are higher).

If we want to add in the thermal storage of other aspects of the house, such as
drywall and flooring, we will find that the thermal mass of the house is 
considerably more, though it is at, or close to, room ambient temperature. If the
room temperature is higher in the daytime, then this thermal mass will rise to
(almost) meet the ambient temperature high.  You calculated 4000 Btu/F for internal
secondary storage in an earlier post, so if the indoor daytime temperature is 75 F 
and the base winter room temperature is 65 F, then internal secondary storage is 
40,000 Btus.

If the Ts = 85 F and Tf = 75F (after a day of average sunlight in 
December), then;

qc = 1*50*(85-75) = 500 Btu/hr per storage wall

which, according to your calculation of my house design at 150 Btu/hr F 
(which you admit needs significant rework, I'll address this in another post),
would raise the room ambient temperature, conversely lowering the qc.

As the room and thermal storage walls starts to cool down to 
Ts = 73 and Ts =68 F, for example, then qc =  125 Btu/hr per storage wall

With 65 F being the base winter room temperature, the storage walls would 
still have 32000 Btus of energy left, not counting the wall, ceiling, and floor
thermal storage.

> >>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
> >>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.
> 
> >By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.
> 
> My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
> windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
> get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
> a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
> heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
> If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
> the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
> might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...

I'm glad to see that you admit you can be wrong.  Your understanding of 
convection still needs work, though, because we haven't even touched on Nusselt, 
Prandl, Reynolds, or Grashof.  You'll find fluid dynamics plays a large role 
in convection, free or forced.  Thermal conductivity physics only takes 
you so far in the real world.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Thu Jun 13 23:38:35 EDT 1996
Article: 919 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!vyzynz!bofh.dot!newsfeed.concentric.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!blackbush.xlink.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar vacuum collectors needed
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:19:18 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <31BC7536.521B@dortmund.netsurf.de>
References: <31b6f74b.64159095@news.hik.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: portc3.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
To: midnite <midnite@algonet.se>

I've an adress of Giordano, but I don't know if it's right.
Jacques Giordano Industries
529, Avenue de la Fleuride
F-13400 Aubagne
Tel +33 42 823 153
Fax: +33 42 700 870

Another adress of an enterprise who sells vacuum collectors is:
Schweizer Solartechnologie
Chnuebraechi 864
8197 Rafz
Tel + 41 1 869 08 49
Fax +41 1 869 08 89

These collectors are only a little less efficient but cost the half of 
those from Giordano.

For details about collectors you should contact:
Technikum Rapperswill in Switzerland.

Greetings
-- 
Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/




From jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:35 EDT 1996
Article: 920 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jr4q+
From: Jason Mansfield Roth <jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:18:26 -0400
Organization: Sponsored account, Architecture, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <cljUnGC00iV_I9IGph@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7230 alt.solar.thermal:920 alt.energy.renewable:15800

>   From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
>   Date: 8 Jun 1996 07:16:22 -0400
>   
>   PS: Lent 700 ft^2 of 13.9 cent/ft^2 black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth to
>   the local newspaper, . . .  so they could see how their
>   comfort and AC bills change when they hang it over their barn red
south wall
>   with R11 insulation and 84 ft^2 of double pane windows. 
> 
>Why black, solar absorbing cloth?  Wouldn't white reflective cloth
>keep the sun "away" and therefore keep the building cooler?
> 
>--
>Meir Laker 

As I understand it, you want deep shade -- which black provides (Bedouin
tents are black, if I recall correctly. Also tightly woven to keep out
sand). This is providing you have: a) ventilation beneath the shade and
b) a surface between you and the shade (like a glass wall) so that the
absorbed heat of the black shade does not radiate to you directly. At
any rate, the point of the shade is to prevent solar radiation from
penetrating to you, while a white shade only reflects some visible
light, end lets in all sorts of radiation (blackout curtains are black
for a reason).

If I'm missing something on this, please let me know, as I've actually
just been thinking about this concept a lot, and it sure is
counter-intuitive.

JMR

93 SL2, blue-green

The foul stench of death is upon us!!! Mmmm...burger....

"What's the use of a good house if you don't have a decent planet to put
it on?"



From r.bahm@ieee.org Thu Jun 13 23:38:35 EDT 1996
Article: 921 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Raymond Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:41:46 -0600
Organization: Raymond J. Bahm and Associates
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31BE043A.5A43@ieee.org>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pma13.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)

William R Stewart wrote:
> 
> NOMAD29 wrote:
> >
> > I've just taken a job in RI and have decided to have a passive solar home
> > built.  I'm  Looking for a competent architect/solar engineer and builder
> > for the project.  any ideas??
> >
> > Also I'm seriously concidering a large massonary heater system for the
> > house.  Any feelings pro or con??
> >
> > The settleing NOMAD
> 
> I've selected a modular home built by Avis America, who participated with
> DOE and Fully Independent Residential Solar Technology (FIRST) to design and
> build energy efficient homes that incorporate passive solar heating and
> photovoltaics.
> 
> See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.  A builder in your area is EnerPro Engineering,
> Inc at 508.677.3533.  The energy designer is Lyle Rawlings at 609.466.4495.
> 

You can always look in the back pages of SOLAR TODAY for the Ads.
If you haven't got the Passive Solar Industries Council Guidelines for passive
solar design in your area, you are missing the most authoritative and best
resource for design information taylored to your local climate.  Well worth
the money spent.

-- 
Ray Bahm  --  r.bahm@ieee.org


From pjm@nando.net Thu Jun 13 23:38:36 EDT 1996
Article: 922 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 13 Jun 1996 21:18:50 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4pq0j4$ljo_001@nando.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail709.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7432 alt.solar.thermal:922 alt.energy.renewable:15804 sci.energy:51145 alt.architecture.alternative:7236

In article <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>,
   jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso) wrote:

~~>| from one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.

	Or http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov , their web site.

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/index.html


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:36 EDT 1996
Article: 923 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: heatflow, heatflow, heatflow
Date: 13 Jun 1996 18:30:04 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 214
Message-ID: <4pq4pc$inb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7436 alt.solar.thermal:923 alt.energy.renewable:15806 sci.energy:51146 alt.architecture.alternative:7238

William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>> >> >Nick Pine wrote:
>> >> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
> 
>> My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."
>
>Do you have any problems with this organization, or are they all ignorant
>and criminal, too?

They are good guys with their hearts in the right places, like yours, however,
we haven't seen many 100% solar houses like those of Norman Saunders, PE,
described in their pages lately. Bill Yanda and Steve Baer figure nicely
in their publications. Their technical journal is somewhat clogged with
academics, IMO.

>Perhaps an understanding of thermodynamics should be your foundation for 
>HVAC calculations, as is the normal in engineering schools.

Been there, done that. ASHRAE calcs are more useful and straightforward here.

>>>You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the
>>>ambient room temperature. Since the water wall will be painted (or papered)
>>>a light color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. 

BTW, I think the light color is irrelevant here, unless you are talking about
a shiny metallic surface. Dark colors are good for solar absorption, but IR
emission at eg 80 F is pretty much independent of color. Perhaps you believe
in painting radiators dark colors... I don't think that matters.

>> Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
>> Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
>> similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.
 
>Convection equivalents are not so cut and dry.  Newton's law of cooling is;
 
>qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

Right. Ohm's law for heatflow :-)

>where 
>  hc= average convection heat-transfer coefficient over the surface A
>      in W/m2*K (Btu/hr*ft^2*F).  hc for air, free convection is 
>      1-5 Btu/hr*ft^2*F 

That's a U (=1/R) value, and it's hard to get below 1.5 in still air. It
increases if the air is moving to about U = 1.5 + V/5 for smooth surfaces,
U = 2 + V/2 for rougher ones like stucco, where V is in mph. See ASHRAE HOF
Fig 1, p 22.1. You might be able to get U < 1 if you make the water wall faces
shiny metal (U ~ 0.5 for upward heatflow, ~ 0.25 for sideways heatflow), but
that won't work for the side facing the sun, which will impose a lower limit
on the overall U-value of at least 1.5, unless it's a selective surface.
 
>  Ts= Surface temp
>  Tf= Undisturbed fluid temperature

Natch.

>Because the thermal store wall will be resting on a perpendicular floor, and
>will have a perpendicular table top extending 18 inches into the room, I will
>assume an hc value of 1 for purposes of discussion.

1.5 is probably closer to the truth, especially since the floor and table top
will act as conductive fins. Gluing foil-faced foamboard to the non-south
surfaces would help...

>The wall design is not completely set; one design I am looking at is
>10'x2.5'x8", which is slightly different from 10'x4'x4".

OK.

>This design would give a storage per wall at 16.6 ft^3 X 7.48 gal/ft^3 X
>8.33 lb/gal = 1041 Btu storage for each degree F delta T.

OK.

>If they are exposed to 700 Btus/hr ft^2 solar insolation

That was 700 Btu/day-ft^2. Full sun is 311 Btu/hr-ft^2, max, on earth.
                 ^^^
>through dual pane windows, then;

>Each storage wall will receive 25 X 700 = 17500 Btus during the day.

Agreed, for a 25 ft^2 water wall face...

>With 4 walls, that translates to 17,500 x 4 = 70,000 Btus.
 
OK.

>Of course each window group has an addition 50 ft^2 of window space that
>bypasses the thermal storage walls, so another 140,000 Btus will enter
>those windows.

OK. But irrelevant.

>Two more south window groups do not have thermal storage walls (will
>likely have storage floors, such as slate or dark tile on concrete),
>so 2 x 70 x 700 = 98,000 Btus additional input.

OK. But irrelevant.

>70K + 140K + 98K = ~310,000 Btus of solar insolation input on an average
>December day (January and February are higher).

OK. But irrelevant.

>If we want to add in the thermal storage of other aspects of the house, such as
>drywall and flooring, we will find that the thermal mass of the house is 
>considerably more, though it is at, or close to, room ambient temperature. 

That's what we will find, huh? :-) How much? Numbers please.

>If the room temperature is higher in the daytime, then this thermal mass
>will rise to (almost) meet the ambient temperature high.

Sure. Or higher, if it's in the sun, eg the floor.

>You calculated 4000 Btu/F for internal secondary storage in an earlier post,

That was a guess. Your house might have 4,000 ft^2 of 1/2" drywall with a
thermal mass of 0.5 Btu/F, ie 2,000 Btu/F. How much will your solar fireplace
weigh? That would add about 0.16 Btu/lb...

>so if the indoor daytime temperature is 75 F and the base winter room
>temperature is 65 F, then internal secondary storage is 40,000 Btus.

OK, go ahead, double that number, but that's still a drop in the bucket
compared to a typical day's energy need of 24(70-40)150 = 108K.

>If the Ts = 85 F and Tf = 75F (after a day of average sunlight in December),

Is Ts the water wall temp, and Tf the room and wall temp?

>qc = 1*50*(85-75) = 500 Btu/hr per storage wall

Let's see, you said above,

>qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)

and you said you wanted to use hc = 1, altho 1.5 is a more reasonable min...
So where did the 50 come from? Oh, 2 sides to each water wall, each 25 ft^2.
I guess you'd want to add the perimeter area of 8"/12" x 25' = 17 ft^2, and
something for the floor and table fins? So I'd make this 1.5x67x(85-75) =
1,000 Btu/hr/wall, altho you seem to have pulled the 85 F out of a hat.
Perhaps you'd like to recalculate that 109 F with these new shapes.

>which, according to your calculation of my house design at 150 Btu/hr F 
>(which you admit needs significant rework, I'll address this in another post),

Perhaps you would like to recalculate that. It's your house.

>would raise the room ambient temperature, conversely lowering the qc.

Right. Until you are parading naked :-)
 
>As the room and thermal storage walls starts to cool down to 
>Ts = 73 and Ts =68 F, for example, then qc =  125 Btu/hr per storage wall

What difference does that make? You might rework that too.

>With 65 F being the base winter room temperature, the storage walls would 
>still have 32000 Btus of energy left, not counting the wall, ceiling, and floor
>thermal storage.

OK. I get 33,312 Btu, using your numbers above.
But what's the point of this calculation, Will?

>> >>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
>> >>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.
 
>> >By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.
 
>>My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
>>windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
>>get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
>>a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
>>heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
>>If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
>>the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
>>might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...
 
>I'm glad to see that you admit you can be wrong.

Sure. I miscalculated before. You are building a whole house wrong :-)

>Your understanding of convection still needs work, though, because we haven't
>even touched on Nusselt, Prandl, Reynolds, or Grashof. You'll find fluid
>dynamics plays a large role in convection, free or forced. Thermal
>conductivity physics only takes you so far in the real world.

R-values are sufficient here.

So let's see. Your new water walls have a thermal resistance of 2/3/67 ft^2
and a thermal mass of 1041 Btu/F, so their RC time constant is 10.35 hours,
and your house with the 4,000 Btu/F of inherent thermal mass and 150 Btu/F-hr
with all the curtains drawn has a time constant of 26.6 hours, so if I'm doing
this right, we might figure the RC time constant of your entire house with 
all those ritual curtains drawn as the RMS value sqrt(26.6^2+10.35^2)=28.5 hr.

Suppose we say the average temp of the thermal mass in your house is 80 F
to start with. Then when it's 30 F outside, with all the thermal curtains
drawn in the dark, 24 hours a day, the indoor house temp will be:

T(t) = 30 + (80-30) exp(-t/28.5)

80 F after 0 hours, 52 F after 24 hours, and 39 F after 48 hours.  
 
Still not a solar house by a long shot, I'd say. Altho it could be
dramatically improved by rearranging the same materials... 
 
Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:36 EDT 1996
Article: 924 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: heatflow, heatflow, heatflow
Date: 13 Jun 1996 21:15:37 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4pqefp$klm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net> <4pq4pc$inb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7439 alt.solar.thermal:924 alt.energy.renewable:15808 sci.energy:51152 alt.architecture.alternative:7239

I wrote:

>we might figure the RC time constant of your entire house with all those
>ritual curtains drawn as the RMS value sqrt(26.6^2+10.35^2)=28.5 hr.

On second thought, it's probably more accurate to calculate the steady-state
water wall temp and model the house as having a fixed hold time of a few hours
followed by an exponential cooling with a time constant of 8000/150 = 53 hours.

Still piss-poor solar performance...

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:37 EDT 1996
Article: 925 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!wariat.org!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-04.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:59:37 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-04.dialip.mich.net

In article <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>, wstewart@patriot.net wrote:

| Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
| his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end 
| up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.
| 
| >                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
| >                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
| > Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp

Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. The 70 degree limit
would then be regulated by the homeowner who opens a window or closes a
vent (or has some automatic (magic?) mechanism do this) so that the temp
doesn't exceed 70. If the house gets above 70, that would be nice for
those who like it hot, I guess, and would make the house cool down to an
unacceptable temp more slowly, but probably wouldn't be desirable for most
people.

(BTW, it's "spagHetti" and while I've heard of spaghetti westerns, I'm not
familiar with spaghetti code, though maybe I'm just ignorant. :-) )

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From london@helios.oit.unc.edu Thu Jun 13 23:38:37 EDT 1996
Article: 926 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!helios.oit.unc.edu!usenet
From: london@helios.oit.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: 13 Jun 1996 23:37:31 -0400
Organization: University of North Carolina
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4pqmpr$gub@helios.oit.unc.edu>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107796 alt.energy.renewable:15810 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1370 alt.solar.thermal:926 sci.energy:51153

>> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
>> 
>> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
>> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
>> much less than that.
>> 
>> Very small power needs covering micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc and also
>> small scale heating&cooling also would be a needed newsgroup in my 
>> opinion as I have been studying homepower for the past 6 months.
>> 
>> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
>> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower

>In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
>a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?

Ironic. I set up alt.energy.renewable years ago to have a Usenet newsgroup
to bidirectionally gate the FidoNet HOMEPOWR echo into. The above description
of alt.homepower perfectly describes HOMEPOWR. It seems to me that 
alt.energy.renewable is inappropriate for hosting HomePower discussion; 
too much noise, spam, extraneous discussion, flame, etc. 
Alt.solar.thermal has been very succesful and so could 
alt.energy.homepower, a perfect name for the newsgroup. 
I support this name over alt.homepower. Go for it! 
If someone is needed to form the group, I will offer to get it done.

Lawrence
:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
london@sunSITE.unc.edu - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london
london@mercury.interpath.net - http://www.interpath.net/~london 
Organic Gardening & Farming, CSA, Permaculture & Renewable Energy Information
:




From alanh@widomaker.com Fri Jun 14 17:21:45 EDT 1996
Article: 927 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.widomaker.com!not-for-mail
From: alanh@widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: black 80%-solar-absorbing shadecloth, Was: AC Short Cycling
Date: 12 Jun 1996 19:15:11 -0400
Organization: Widomaker Public Access Internet (804)221-8070
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <4pnj1v$cat@wilma.widomaker.com>
References: <MEIR.96Jun11174258@fiasco.watson.ibm.com> <cljUnGC00iV_I9IGph@andrew.cmu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wilma.widomaker.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7246 alt.solar.thermal:927 alt.energy.renewable:15818


I bet if the beduin had facilities to silverize their tents, they'd do it.
You're going to have a hard time convinc


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jun 16 07:09:30 EDT 1996
Article: 928 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: 13 Jun 1996 13:46:11 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4ppk53$ejv@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7463 alt.solar.thermal:928 alt.energy.renewable:15824 sci.energy:51171 alt.architecture.alternative:7253

John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
 
| Successive refinements might be to look up the average daytime
| high in that month, and use that number instead of the 24 hour average temp,
| for the sunspace collection efficiency, to do a TMY2 simulation for the
| house, using hourly NREL weather data for a typical meteorological year,
| and to do a simulation using hourly weather data for the last 30 years,
| from one of three $130 Sampson CD-ROMs available from orders@ncdc.noaa.gov.

>Yeah, this is what I meant.

OK...

| It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...

>Right (having lived in MN where those cold Canadian air masses are often
>cloudless), but you would build for a 30-yr (or 10-yr or some other
>long-term) low, not for typical winter days, right?

Right, but... 

>(Though avg days are fine for a quick comparison of types.)

Yes, and for the more complete simulations I've run, I've noticed that
a house design based on daily averages works fine. It usually turns out
to be overkill. Simple simulations allow one to tweak the design a little,
to reduce the size of the required sunspace or thermal store, or decrease
the R-value of the walls or windows, or increase the allowable air
infiltration rate, vs. an average-day design. 

Nick



From jmucci@umich.edu Sun Jun 16 07:09:30 EDT 1996
Article: 929 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!wariat.org!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-19.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:56:05 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 184
Message-ID: <jmucci-1306960156060001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-19.dialip.mich.net

In article <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net>, wstewart@patriot.net wrote:

| John D. Muccigrosso wrote:
<snip>
| > Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
| > least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. 
| 
| No, his comments identify them as thermal mass temperatures
| 
| > 190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures
| 
| TMx variables are for Thermal Mass.
| 
| > 195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
| > 200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
| > 205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
| > 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
| > 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
| > 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather
| 
| Notice that he imposes an artificial limit on the storage wall temperature
| here (and other places, see my last post).
<snip>

OK, let me try this again.

House 1          House 2       House 3      Not a house, but part of H2 & 3
-----------      ----------    --------     -------------------------------
Direct           Isolated      Isolated     Isolated
gain,            gain,         gain and     store
wall store       wall store    store        temp

H1 is a house that heats up inside due to insolation through windows into
the living space and that stores the heat thus gained in its own walls and
furniture and masonry floors and other things.

H2 is a house with the same kind of heat storage, but is heated up
indirectly by insolation of an isolated space (a sunspace).

H3 has the same kind of heating mechanism as H2, but relies on heat stored
in an isolated space that contains lots o' thermal mass (a solar closet)
while the thermal mass of the inside of the house is negligible.

So the thermal store for H1 and H2 is the stuff in the house (walls and
furniture and masonry floors and other things).  Nick assumes that TM _is_
room temp for H1 and H2 by considering the air to be in thermal
equilibrium with the thermal mass, but you're allowing the heat transfer
>from  thermal mass to air to be slow so that the air can keep grabbing heat
>from  the thermal mass through the night. Kind of like the streets and
sidewalk at night in the city during the summer (childhood memories
flooding back...). Hence,

| Don't forget, the thermal store can be considerably higher than the ambient 
| temperature.

So the nice masonry floor (or "store") will heat up during the day as the
sun shines on it. The heat loss to the air is slow relative to the heat
gain from the sun, so that the store's T increases at a faster rate than
the air's, resulting in a nice hot store and cooler air. The air loses
heat all the time to the outside via the walls, but the store is slowly
replenishing that heat as it cools and is not itself directly losing an
appreciable amount of heat. During the day, lost heat from the store is
replenished by the sun, but at night, the store just cools down. Reminds
me of reaction kinetics actually:

               k1
  sunlight + A -> B         k1 is the rate of A -> B

               k2
         B + C -> D + A     k2 is the rate of B + C -> D + A

Here, A is cold store, B is hot store, C is cold air and D is hot air
(ooh, opening myself up on that one). k1 is much faster than k2 and C is
small relative to B, so B builds up during the day. Then at night or on a
cloudy day, [sunlight] = 0 so k1 doesn't matter, and it's just k2 that is
working, cooling off the store. (Of course, I'm simplifying here and one
would probably work with thermal masses and stuff, but anyway...). It's
the old "kinetics vs. thermodynamics" thing.

In effect, the air acts as an insulator between the store and the walls of
the house, making the effective R-value that the store sees much larger
than the R-value of the walls. The store therefore loses heat relatively
slowly to the outside while the insulator (the air) stays warm
transferring heat between the two. For the program below, the TmassH1/2 is
allowed to go much higher than 70 (or 80) while the Tair is completely
unaccounted for.

Lots of critical variables in there, I guess. This doesn't change the
utility of Nick's high-T isolated store, though, unless the store can
conserve enough heat to last through those cold days.

------

I tried to relabel some variables in Nick's code (love that search and
replace) so that it is less spaghetti like and have given it below.

I suspect that I may not understand the layout of our cube houses, but the
only difference between H1 and H2 seems to be that H2 covers up the window
at night and on cloudy days, while H1 doesn't (hence isolated gain since
the store effectively transmits all of its heat to the house when it is
gaining it and doesn't act as a drain when it is not). H3 also closes up
the window and gets to store heat in an isolated thermal mass which takes
up the equivalent of half of one wall. (Sorry if I lost the original
sketches on this.)

While I realize that this is a grossly simplified setup, interesting to me are: 

1. H2 and H3 have window coverings that are equal in R-value to the walls
(i.e., R24), which seems to large.
2. H2 and H3 keep their window entirely covered (i.e., with an R-value of
24) when the sun is not out or it's night, which doesn't sound too
pleasant or realistic to me during those 21 cold and cloudy days. Perhaps
one should given them an R-value half that of the walls during part of
these times?

"The Code III"
10  '  a house race, among three 8' cube contenders, each having
20  '  R24 walls, one 8'x8' R2 window, and 4096 Btu/F of thermal mass.
30  '  House 1: a direct gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
40  '  House 2: an isolated gain house with thermal mass in the walls.
50  '  House 3: an isolated gain house with isolated thermal mass store.
60  OPEN "HROUT" FOR OUTPUT AS #1
70  PRINT#1,
80  PRINT#1,"They're off!"
100 PRINT#1,"               Direct        Isolated      Isolated     Isolated"
110 PRINT#1,"               gain, wall    gain, wall    gain and     store"
120 PRINT#1,"Day            store         store         store        temp"
130 PRINT#1,
135 '
140 ' Initialize some variables
150 RWIND=2                            'US R-value of window
160 RWALL=24                           'US R-value of walls
170 C=4096                             'thermal mass (Btu/F)
180 Tout=32.8                          'avg outdoor Dec T in Providence, RI (F)
185 SunIn=8*8*900*.92*.92              'average daily solar input (Btu)
190 Tupper=80                          'upper T limit for wall store houses (F)
195 TmassH1=Tout:TmassH2=Tout:TmassH3=Tout  'thermal mass T's
200 TinH3=Tout                         'inside T for isolated-store house
205 '
210 'warmup over a long string of average December days
220 FOR DAY=1 TO 14                         'warmup over 2 weeks of avg Dec days
230 ' Do house 1
240 Elost1=24*(TmassH1-Tout)*64/RWIND+24*(TmassH1-Tout)*5*64/RWALL
250 TmassH1=TmassH1+(SunIn-Elost1)/C        'calculate new thermal mass temp
260 IF TmassH1>Tupper THEN TmassH1=Tupper   'ventilate house to limit indoor T
240 ' Do house 2
270
Elost2=6*(TmassH2-Tout)*64/RWIND+18*(TmassH2-Tout)*64/RWALL+24*(TmassH2-Tout)*5*64/RWALL
280 TmassH2=TmassH2+(SunIn-Elost2)/C
290 IF TmassH2>Tupper THEN TmassH2=Tupper
295 ' Do house 3
300 Elost3=6*(TmassH3-TinH3)*32/RWIND+18*(TmassH3-Tout)*32/RWALL  'S wall loss
310 Elost3=Elost3+24*(TinH3-Tout)*(32+5*64)/RWALL  ' rest-of-house loss
320 TmassH3=TmassH3+(SunIn-Elost3)/C
330 IF TmassH3<70 THEN TinH3=TmassH3 ELSE TinH3=70 ' keep house at store T
335                                                ' unless store too hot
340 IF TmassH3>212 THEN TmassH3=212'               ' physical limit on store T
350 PRINT#1, DAY,TmassH1,TmassH2,TinH3,TmassH3
370 NEXT DAY
375 '
380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
390 SunIn=0'turn off the sun
400 PRINT#1,"turn off the sun..."
410 FOR DAY=15 TO 35                      'simulate three weeks of cloudy days
420 'DO House 1
430 Elost1=24*(TmassH1-Tout)*64/RWIND+24*(TmassH1-Tout)*5*64/RWALL
440 TmassH1=TmassH1+(SunIn-Elost1)/C
445 ' Do house 2
450
Elost2=0*(TmassH2-Tout)*64/RWIND+24*(TmassH2-Tout)*64/RWALL+24*(TmassH2-Tout)*5*64/RWALL
460 TmassH2=TmassH2+(SunIn-Elost2)/C
465 ' Do house 3
470 Elost3=0*(TmassH3-TinH3)*32/RWIND+24*(TmassH3-Tout)*32/RWALL'south wall loss
480 Elost3=Elost3+24*(TinH3-Tout)*(32+5*64)/RWALL
490 TmassH3=TmassH3+(SunIn-Elost3)/C
500 IF TmassH3<70 THEN TinH3=TmassH3 ELSE TinH3=70
520 PRINT#1,DAY,TmassH1,TmassH2,TinH3,TmassH3
540 NEXT DAY
545 '
550 CLOSE

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From jmucci@umich.edu Sun Jun 16 07:09:31 EDT 1996
Article: 930 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm113-15.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:26:54 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <jmucci-1306960926540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net> <jmucci-1306960156060001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm113-15.dialip.mich.net

In article <jmucci-1306960156060001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>,
jmucci@umich.edu (John D. Muccigrosso) wrote:

| I suspect that I may not understand the layout of our cube houses, but the
| only difference between H1 and H2 seems to be that H2 covers up the window
| at night and on cloudy days, while H1 doesn't (hence isolated gain since
| the store effectively transmits all of its heat to the house when it is
| gaining it and doesn't act as a drain when it is not). H3 also closes up
| the window and gets to store heat in an isolated thermal mass which takes
| up the equivalent of half of one wall. (Sorry if I lost the original
| sketches on this.)
| 
| While I realize that this is a grossly simplified setup, interesting to
me are: 
| 
| 1. H2 and H3 have window coverings that are equal in R-value to the walls
| (i.e., R24), which seems to large.
| 2. H2 and H3 keep their window entirely covered (i.e., with an R-value of
| 24) when the sun is not out or it's night, which doesn't sound too
| pleasant or realistic to me during those 21 cold and cloudy days. Perhaps
| one should given them an R-value half that of the walls during part of
| these times?

Ah, I think I see better now. H2 has no windows except for the one in the
isolated gain area and that's isolated form the rest of the house by the
same insulation as the walls have.

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan


From wstewart@patriot.net Sun Jun 16 07:09:31 EDT 1996
Article: 931 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:40:03 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <31C01A32.7042@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1306960920540001@pm113-15.dialip.mich.net>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7468 alt.solar.thermal:931 alt.energy.renewable:15827

John D. Muccigrosso wrote:
> 
> In article <4poc1s$9d3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
> (Nick Pine) wrote:

> | It seems to me that in many parts of the country, cold days are sunny...
> 
> Right (having lived in MN where those cold Canadian air masses are often
> cloudless), but you would build for a 30-yr (or 10-yr or some other
> long-term) low, not for typical winter days, right? (Though avg days are
> fine for a quick comparison of types.)

One can provide 100% percent coverage of their heating needs over a span of 
dozens of years, but this is not normally the case in HVAC calculations, as
a very large system would be installed that would run inefficiently at moderate
temperatures.  

In some formulas, factors such as 97.5% or 99% percent coverage are 
considered,  where the temperature might dip below the design minimum a 
small percentage of the time.

If you are considering solar heat, you might want to consider a back-up, 
whether it is a gas furnace, an efficient fireplace, ground-source heat pump, 
or kerosene heater.  Passive alone cannot guarantee complete coverage, and 
active solar runs the risk of a component failure. Warm clothing can help 
ease the chill on the coldest of days.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From wstewart@patriot.net Sun Jun 16 07:09:32 EDT 1996
Article: 932 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:40:22 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-4.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)

John D. Muccigrosso wrote:
> 
> In article <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net>, wstewart@patriot.net wrote:
> 
> | Nick provides a simple (but spaggetti) code exercise that somehow support
> | his thesis statements.  Note below how many temperatures 'magically' end
> | up at 70 F.  The answer is buried in the 'code'.
> |
> | >                Direct        Isolated      Isolated      Isolated
> | >                gain,         gain,         gain and      store
> | > Day            wall store    wall store    store         temp
> 
> Hmmm, seems to me that the first 3 columns of temps are air temp, or at
> least living quarters temp including walls and stuff. 

No, his comments identify them as thermal mass temperatures

> 190 TM1=36:TM2=36:TM3=36'initialize thermal mass temperatures

TMx variables are for Thermal Mass.

> 195 TLIM=36'initialize limiting temp
> 200 FOR DAY=1 TO 14'warmup over two weeks of average December days
> 205 FOR I=1 TO 10000:NEXT'delay loop
> 210 E1=24*(TM1-36)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-36)*5*64/RWALL
> 220 TM1=TM1+(SUNIN-E1)/C'new thermal store temp
> 230 IF TM1>70 THEN TM1=70'overheating limit in sunny weather

Notice that he imposes an artificial limit on the storage wall temperature
here (and other places, see my last post).

> The 70 degree limit
> would then be regulated by the homeowner who opens a window or closes a
> vent (or has some automatic (magic?) mechanism do this) so that the temp
> doesn't exceed 70.

With a passive solar house, that would likely be lowering window shades.
The thermal mass helps to even out the temperature swings.  In a discussion
today with Lyle Rawlings, he mentioned that his house once hit 84 degrees
in midwinter, but his family enjoyed the warmth, being able to stroll around
barefoot in summer clothes, so he didn't draw any curtains.

Don't forget, the thermal store can be considerably higher than the ambient 
temperature.

> (BTW, it's "spagHetti" and while I've heard of spaghetti westerns, I'm not
> familiar with spaghetti code, though maybe I'm just ignorant. :-) )

Thanks for the spell check.  Spaghetti code is code that is difficult to follow,
whether due to cryptic variable names, 'goto's, sparse commenting, or buried rules.

I try to avoid calling people ignorant, even if I think I'm right.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From gcurd@tricon.net Sun Jun 16 07:09:32 EDT 1996
Article: 933 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.tricon.net!usenet
From: "Gerard T. Curd" <gcurd@tricon.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:51:52 -0700
Organization: Tri-Cities Connection
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <31C0D3C8.27B0@tricon.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net> <4pog7q$9in@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C00D50.5F25@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.tricon.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)

William R Stewart wrote:
> 
> [followups to alt.solar.thermal for the umpteenth +1 time...]
> 
> Nick Pine wrote:
> >
> > William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> >
> > >[Followups to alt.solar.thermal, for the umpteenth time...
> >
> > Feeling uncomfortable, Will? :-)
> 
> Trying to reduce the embarrassment you create for yourself...
> 
> > >Nick Pine wrote:
> > >> William R Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
> > >> >Nick Pine wrote:
> > >> >> >See Solar Today Sept/Oct 1995.
> 
> > My copy says "Published by The American Solar Energy Society."
> 
> Do you have any problems with this organization, or are they all ignorant
> and criminal, too?
> 
> > >> How many CS graduates are willing to understand simple physics, involving
> > >> ASHRAE-type R-value calculations?
> > >
> > >Those who also have electro-mechanical engineering degrees.
> >
> > I have yet to see one... These calculations are just HVAC craftsmanship, not
> > "thermodynamics."
> 
> I wonder how many people in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac would consider you an
> HVAC "craftsman"...
> 
> Perhaps an understanding of thermodynamics should be your foundation for
> HVAC calculations, as is the normal in engineering schools.  Don't forget
> you are posting to sci.ENGR.heat-vent-ac.  You continue to strip away all
> of my followups to alt.solar.thermal, so you must suffer the consequent
> loss of face.  If you are trying to attract clients, this isn't a very good
> approach.
> 
> > >You fail to realize that the thermal store can be much warmer than the ambient
> > >room temperature.  Since the water wall will be painted (or papered) a light
> > >color, most of the heat transfer will be from convection. Do you understand how
> > >to calculate convection?
> >
> > Sure. I just use an R-value of 2/3. I don't add anything for paint or paper.
> > Other people go on about Nusselt and Grashof numbers, but the results are
> > similar. R-values are actual physical measurements that include convection.
> 
> Convection equivalents are not so cut and dry.  Newton's law of cooling is;
> 
> qc = hc*A(Ts - Tf)
> 
> where
>   hc= average convection heat-transfer coefficient over the surface A
>       in W/m2*K (Btu/hr*ft^2*F).  hc for air, free convection is
>       1-5 Btu/hr*ft^2*F
> 
>   Ts= Surface temp
>   Tf= Undisturbed fluid temperature
> 
> Because the thermal store wall will be resting on a perpendicular floor, and
> will have a perpendicular table top extending 18 inches into the room, I will
> assume an hc value of 1 for purposes of discussion.  The wall design is not
> completely set; one design I am looking at is 10'x2.5'x8", which is slightly
> different from 10'x4'x4".  This design would give a storage per wall at
> 16.6 ft^3 X 7.48 gal/ft^3 X 8.33 lb/gal = 1041 Btu storage for each degree F
> delta T.  If they are exposed to 700 Btus/hr ft^2 solar insolation through
> dual pane windows, then;
> 
> Each storage wall will receive 25 X 700 = 17500 Btus during the day.
> 
> With 4 walls, that translates to 17,500 x 4 = 70,000 Btus.
> 
> Of course each window group has an addition 50 ft^2 of window space that bypasses
> the thermal storage walls, so another 140,000 Btus will enter those windows.
> 
> Two more south window groups do not have thermal storage walls (will likely have
> storage floors, such as slate or dark tile on concrete),
> so 2 x 70 x 700 = 98,000 Btus additional input.
> 
> 70K + 140K + 98K = ~310,000 Btus of solar insolation input on an average December day
> (January and February are higher).
> 
> If we want to add in the thermal storage of other aspects of the house, such as
> drywall and flooring, we will find that the thermal mass of the house is
> considerably more, though it is at, or close to, room ambient temperature. If the
> room temperature is higher in the daytime, then this thermal mass will rise to
> (almost) meet the ambient temperature high.  You calculated 4000 Btu/F for internal
> secondary storage in an earlier post, so if the indoor daytime temperature is 75 F
> and the base winter room temperature is 65 F, then internal secondary storage is
> 40,000 Btus.
> 
> If the Ts = 85 F and Tf = 75F (after a day of average sunlight in
> December), then;
> 
> qc = 1*50*(85-75) = 500 Btu/hr per storage wall
> 
> which, according to your calculation of my house design at 150 Btu/hr F
> (which you admit needs significant rework, I'll address this in another post),
> would raise the room ambient temperature, conversely lowering the qc.
> 
> As the room and thermal storage walls starts to cool down to
> Ts = 73 and Ts =68 F, for example, then qc =  125 Btu/hr per storage wall
> 
> With 65 F being the base winter room temperature, the storage walls would
> still have 32000 Btus of energy left, not counting the wall, ceiling, and floor
> thermal storage.
> 
> > >>The heat goes in one side of those window-blocking water walls and out
> > >>both sides, almost immediately, heating the room air.
> >
> > >By what transfer mechanism, convection?  Please show me the calculation.
> >
> > My NREL data book says about 1050 Btu/ft^2 would shine in your double-glazed
> > windows over a 6 hour winter day, of which they estimate 710 Btu/ft^2 would
> > get through the window, and shine on the water wall in your 70 F room, with
> > a still air film R-value of 2/3 for each side (see ASHRAE HOF, Fig 1, p 22.1),
> > heating it up to a temperature T, where 710 = 6(T-70)2/(2/3), so T = 109 F.
> > If the wall contains 4" of water, ie about 21 pounds per square foot of wall,
> > the RC time constant of the wall is about 2/3/2x21 = 7 hours. These walls
> > might keep your house warm for several hours, not just a half-hour...
> 
> I'm glad to see that you admit you can be wrong.  Your understanding of
> convection still needs work, though, because we haven't even touched on Nusselt,
> Prandl, Reynolds, or Grashof.  You'll find fluid dynamics plays a large role
> in convection, free or forced.  Thermal conductivity physics only takes
> you so far in the real world.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Will Stewart


Get a Room!!!!


From wstewart@patriot.net Sun Jun 16 07:09:33 EDT 1996
Article: 934 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 05:49:28 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <31C28728.15A9@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net> <jmucci-1306960156060001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4pqh2j$krl@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-8.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> John D. Muccigrosso <jmucci@umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> >House 1          House 2       House 3      Not a house, but part of H2 & 3
> >-----------      ----------    --------     -------------------------------
> >Direct           Isolated      Isolated     Isolated    [just H3 ----^]
> >gain,            gain,         gain and     store
> >wall store       wall store    store        temp
> 
> >H1 is a house that heats up inside due to insolation through windows into
> >the living space and that stores the heat thus gained in its own walls and
> >furniture and masonry floors and other things.
> 
> That was the idea. And this "direct loss" house loses lots of heat
> at night and on a cloudy day through the big uninsulated window.

You might redo you calculations to show the effects of insulating shades. 
Otherwise, what is the purpose of this exercise?

Also, you neglect to take into account the temperature of the thermal
wall storage, which will be at a higher temperature than the ambient 
room temperature.

> >H2 is a house with the same kind of heat storage, but is heated up
> >indirectly by insolation of an isolated space (a sunspace).
> 
> Yes. Or some transparent siding on the south side of the house, or a
> transparent steep south roof, with an insulated attic floor. These things
> actually cost LESS than normal construction, since they have no shingles,
> tarpaper or sheathing, and houses need roofs and siding anyway.

How many house designs can support 30 55 gallon drums filled with water?
The added costs associated with a *safe* design must be accounted for.

> >H3 has the same kind of heating mechanism as H2, but relies on heat stored
> >in an isolated space that contains lots o' thermal mass (a solar closet)
> >while the thermal mass of the inside of the house is negligible.
> 
> This works better if the house has some inherent thermal mass, since that way
> the solar closet does not have to provide any heat for the house at night,
> on an average day, so it operates at a higher storage temperature, with no
> load on an average day. On the other hand, if the "house" is a school or
> office or church, that is only heated at certain times, having little thermal
> mass may be an energy advantage.
> 
> >So the thermal store for H1 and H2 is the stuff in the house (walls and
> >furniture and masonry floors and other things).  Nick assumes that TM _is_
> >room temp for H1 and H2 by considering the air to be in thermal equilibrium
> >with the thermal mass,

That's the assumption I take exception with, as shown by my calculations in an
earlier post.

> >but you're allowing the heat transfer from thermal mass to air to be slow
> >so that the air can keep grabbing heat from the thermal mass through the
> >night. Kind of like the streets and sidewalk at night in the city during
> >the summer (childhood memories flooding back...)
> 
> That works for a few hours, but in the long run, after a day or so,
> uninsulated thermal masses end up at about the same temp as the house air.

Agree with the 'day or so'.
 
> For instance, Will's newest water walls have a time constant of about
> 10 hours, meaning any temp difference between them and the house air
> decreases by a factor of 1/e every 10 hours, ie by a factor of about 3.
> So if they are initially 30 F warmer than the house air, after 10 hours,
> they are only about 10 F warmer, after 20 hours, 3 F warmer, etc. A 4"
> thick concrete floor with a thermal mass of 8.8 Btu/F and a thermal
> conductance of 1.5 Btu/hr has a time constant of 8.8/1.5 = 6 hours. A 6"
> solid concrete wall with a thermal mass of 12 Btu/F has a time constant
> of 12/1.5 = 8 hours, etc. But equally important is the fact that in these
> cases, you have to live inside the heat battery, so you can't charge it up
> to a high temp to make the heat last for more cloudy days. This is worse
> for concrete than water, since it has a higher thermal resistance, so
> the surface heats up more when the sun shines on it, vs water, and it
> transfers more heat to the air in the house than a water wall would.

Perhaps we should just acknowledge that I don't look to have long term storage
in my water walls.  You seem to think that prevents my house from being a solar
house, but the rest of the people in this newsgroup understand differently.

If you like your design, hey, more power to you.  But if you are an evangelist
for your design only, and a detractor for all others, you simply sound like just
another egomaniac.
 
> >The store therefore loses heat relatively slowly to the outside while
> >the insulator (the air) stays warm transferring heat between the two.

This shows an excellent grasp of the concept. Now if only Nick can realize
the same...

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From conover@tiac.net Mon Jun 17 12:39:32 EDT 1996
Article: 935 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news-in.tiac.net!news.tiac.net!not-for-mail
From: conover@tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Date: 14 Jun 1996 02:13:40 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <4pqhsk$il5@news.tiac.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950726BETA PL0]

William R Stewart (wstewart@patriot.net) wrote:

: > Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
: > sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
: > merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
: > more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?
: 
: So sailboats with motors are no longer sailboats?  I have to admit, 
: you continue
: to amaze me...  Bought any 12 watt rabbits, lately?

Better check your Chapmans.  Per Coast Guard and international
regulations, a sailboat with its motor running is ALWAYS considered a 
power boat, and is required to obey the navigational and lighting rules
for power boats.  If the motor is turned off, it employs the rules 
applicable to sailing vessels.  (The state of its sails does not
enter into this determination.)

I suppose that by the same logic you could conclude that a solar home
with an operating fireplace is simply a conventionally (albeit wood)
heated home, and that when the fire is extinguished it returns to its 
identity of a solar home.

Maybe you need a determination from the Coast Guard rather than the
FHA for this one!  :-)

                                              Harry C.






From strider@shadowmac.org Tue Jun 18 09:42:16 EDT 1996
Article: 936 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!mr.net!winternet.com!not-for-mail
From: strider@shadowmac.org (Raul Almquist)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Followup-To: alt.config,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Date: 15 Jun 1996 19:43:21 GMT
Organization: ShadowMAC
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4pv3op$9ko@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk> <4pqmpr$gub@helios.oit.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shadowmac.shadowmac.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.config:107945 alt.energy.renewable:15837 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1375 alt.solar.thermal:936 sci.energy:51212

Larry London (london@helios.oit.unc.edu) wrote:
: >> >Doesn't alt.energy.renewable cover this?
: >> 
: >> It does not cover well information that would be exclusively for 
: >> small home power needs of less than 4000 watts peak and usually
: >> much less than that.
: >> 
: >> Very small power needs covering micro-hydro, solar, wind, etc and also
: >> small scale heating&cooling also would be a needed newsgroup in my 
: >> opinion as I have been studying homepower for the past 6 months.
: >> 
: >> I suggest the proposal be expanded to include these items.
: >> If that was done I would support the new newsgroup alt.homepower
: 
: >In that case the name should be alt.energy.homepower.  If there's really 
: >a lot of interest, why not go for a sci group?
: 
: Ironic. I set up alt.energy.renewable years ago to have a Usenet newsgroup
: to bidirectionally gate the FidoNet HOMEPOWR echo into. The above description
: of alt.homepower perfectly describes HOMEPOWR. It seems to me that 
: alt.energy.renewable is inappropriate for hosting HomePower discussion; 
: too much noise, spam, extraneous discussion, flame, etc. 
: Alt.solar.thermal has been very succesful and so could 
: alt.energy.homepower, a perfect name for the newsgroup. 
: I support this name over alt.homepower. Go for it! 
: If someone is needed to form the group, I will offer to get it done.
: 
: Lawrence

  Amazing, most amazing!

  How do you propose to stop the noise or spamming of junk or extraneous 
discussion, flame, etc.????  unless you are working to create a moderated 
group?!

  as to the alt thermal group, I would not say it is a successful group, 
it is an extremely low volume group to say the most and thus not a good 
example to use.


From conover@tiac.net Tue Jun 18 09:42:16 EDT 1996
Article: 937 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!wariat.org!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-in.tiac.net!news.tiac.net!not-for-mail
From: conover@tiac.net (Harry H Conover)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Nick, Nick, Nick
Date: 14 Jun 1996 02:41:09 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4pqjg5$il5@news.tiac.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31BBE68E.5A2C@patriot.net> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <4pll60$s1h@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BF7A9D.1AC4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950726BETA PL0]

: 
: Nick Pine wrote:
:  
: > Right... A friend of mine has a beautiful, seaworthy deep keel 28' Cape Dory
: > sailboat, with a small inboard diesel engine, federally-registered with the
: > merchant marine as an "oil screw," to reduce taxes and let him clear customs
: > more easily :-) Would you hang an outboard motor on your America's Cup boat?
:

"Federally-registered with the merchant marine as an oil screw?"

Huh?   :-)

You perhaps mean Coast Guard documented?  If so, how does this help
him reduce taxes and clear customs more easily, particlarly since he
has to moor the darn thing somehere, unless that somewhere is outside
U.S. waters?  (Does this effectively avoid state collection of sales
tax????) Still, since both mooring taxes and sales taxes are based on
selling price and or current valuation, how does the power plant enter
the tax equation?

I assume the tax benefit to him must be significant, since federal
documentation of a 28' boat is so pretentious as likely to get you laughed 
right out of your local boat or yacht club  -- but if there is a significant
tax advantage (which I am unaware of), I'll put up with a few chuckles
on my way to the bank.  

All things considered, nobody laughs at a Cape Dory.  They is one
fine piece o' sailboat!!! 

                                        Harry C.






 


From mkc@rex.graphics.cornell.edu Tue Jun 18 09:42:17 EDT 1996
Article: 938 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!mr.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.graphics.cornell.edu!rex.Graphics.Cornell.EDU!not-for-mail
From: mkc@rex.graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch Collinsworth)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: 16 Jun 1996 13:27:38 -0400
Organization: Cornell University Program of Computer Graphics
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <4q1g6aINNcq9@rex.graphics.cornell.edu>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk> <4pqmpr$gub@helios.oit.unc.edu> <4q04gk$sv3@news.wco.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rex.graphics.cornell.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15848 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1377 alt.solar.thermal:938

In <4q04gk$sv3@news.wco.com> dkulha@wco.com (Donald Kulha) writes:

>I
>posted the control newgroup message a couple days ago to alt.config and
>believe it took.

Nope.  It was defective:
(Path header line split by me)

|Path: news.graphics.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!
|news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!
|news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!
|world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hsno.wco.com!news.wco.com!
|not-for-mail
|From: dkulha@wco.com (Donald Kulha)
|Newsgroups: alt.config
|Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.energy.homepower
|Control: newgroup alt.energy.homepower
|Date: 14 Jun 1996 19:27:36 GMT
|Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
|Lines: 25
|Message-ID: <4psef8$h3b@news.wco.com>
|NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.wco.com
|X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
|
|Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.energy.homepower
|Control: newgroup alt.energy.homepower
|Approved: dkulha@wco.com
|
|For your newsgroups file:
|[...]

That blank line between X-Newsreader: and (the second) Subject: caused
your Approved: line to be ignored by my news servers, so presumably the
same thing happened elsewhere.  Everything after the first blank line
is considered body, not headers.

-Mitch


From frg@io.com Tue Jun 18 09:42:17 EDT 1996
Article: 939 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal,alt.business.career-opportunities.executives,alt.business.misc,alt.business.multi-level,biz.marketplace,biz.marketplace.international,biz.marketplace.non-computer,biz.marketplace.services.non-computer,biz.misc,biz.univel.misc,relcom.commerce.energy,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.misc,alt.energy,alt.sci,misc.business,misc.invest.technical,nebr.biz
Subject: Thermo-Acoustic Engines and Resonators-Investors/Partners Wanted
Date: 18 Jun 1996 05:36:17 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4q5f8h$eav@nntp-1.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.170.89.145
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15855 sci.energy:51293 alt.solar.thermal:939 alt.business.career-opportunities.executives:1372 alt.business.misc:156289 alt.business.multi-level:140353 biz.marketplace.international:35297 biz.misc:58661 biz.univel.misc:4848 relcom.commerce.energy:40446 sci.electronics.design:12354 sci.electronics.misc:9363 misc.invest.technical:31936

Thermoacoustic resonators are miniature ultrasonic heat pumps that convert 
thermal energy to electrical energy at high efficiency.  They range in 
size from one centimeter to ten centimeters, and the smaller sizes can be 
etched on a micro-chip. E-mail frg@io.com for a FAQ sheet.  We need working 
capital to develop and market the technology.  There are dozens of potential 
applications, from cooling computer CPUs to commercial power generation and 
propulsion.

Lee Fellows   (512) 218-4803

Fellows Research Group, Inc.
P.O. Box 201207
Austin, TX 78720-1207



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Jun 19 15:26:35 EDT 1996
Article: 940 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: a house race
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 06:01:23 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <31C289F3.D1F@patriot.net>
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4pjk3j$gdu@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31BE10A9.411@patriot.net> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <jmucci-1206962346160001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-8.async.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7529 alt.solar.thermal:940 alt.energy.renewable:15859 alt.architecture.alternative:7267

John D. Muccigrosso wrote:
> 
> In article <4plucs$sbp@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
> (Nick Pine) wrote:
> 
> | 180 TA=32.8'average outdoor December temp in Providence, RI (F)
> | 190 SUNIN=8*8*900*.92*.92'average daily solar input (Btu)
> 
> | 380 'coming into the backstretch, a string of cloudy days
> 
> | 430 E1=24*(TM1-TA)*64/RWIND+24*(TM1-TA)*5*64/RWALL
> 
> Here's what I'm wondering. Shouldn't one really use not a string of avg
> winter temp days, but a string of nasty, colder-than-usual, cloudy ones?
> Say a week or two of a nasty arctic air mass stuck in your region.

One approach is to use data that represents the most common weather occurrences
(i.e., 97.5% or 99% of the time) for the region the shelter will reside in.  
That way one can avoid the great expense associated with building a system to 
meet the condition of the two or three worst days per year.  In the case
of a solar heated home, having backup heat (gas, efficient fireplace, etc) can
reduce the size and complexity of the overall solar heating system.  It is no
longer 100% solar, but we solar engineers don't lose any sleep over this.

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From antirush Wed Jun 19 15:26:36 EDT 1996
Article: 941 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news
From: antirush@cris.com (antirush)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:29:57 GMT
Organization: antirush
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net>
Reply-To: antirush
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc083035.concentric.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:941 alt.politics.economics:72205 alt.conspiracy:197401

Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"


WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!

1. Easy
2. No Cost
3. No new government laws to create
4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
and power hungry people with no lives...
WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!


From thisain'tKansasDorothy Sun Jun 23 22:18:14 EDT 1996
Article: 942 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realtime.net!news
From: thisain'tKansasDorothy
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: 20 Jun 1996 01:53:09 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4qaau5$gd6@news3.realtime.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <4qa1nr$ilf@ns2.ptd.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: apm0-59.realtime.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-RTcode: 4ef73033310568cb35c8afd6
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22KIT (Windows; U; 16bit)
To: xopher@ptd.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:942 alt.politics.economics:72320 alt.conspiracy:197607

xopher@ptd.net wrote:
>antirush@cris.com (antirush) wrote:
>
>>Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
>>blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"
>
>
>>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!
>
>>1. Easy
>>2. No Cost
>>3. No new government laws to create
>>4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
>>and power hungry people with no lives...
>>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!
>
>Try walking down a typical American highway during rush hour. This
>will greatly reduce your life expectancy. Living in one of the centers
>of greatest population density with usuable public transit, like NYC,
>has it's own hazards, too.
>

I'm afraid that antirush suffers from a severe case of 
the ififsandbutswerefruitsandnutstheneverydaywouldbechristmas syndrome. 
Please don't humor the child.



From antirush Sun Jun 23 22:18:15 EDT 1996
Article: 943 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news
From: antirush@cris.com (antirush)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.homepower
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:40:01 GMT
Organization: antirush
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <31c93839.17003242@news.concentric.net>
References: <4o50lu$l0i@news.wco.com> <009A301F.9F6074DD@netins.net> <michaelc-3005962112140001@pppm6.netwave.net> <Pine.BSF.3.91.960601110330.5971A-100000@inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk> <4pqmpr$gub@helios.oit.unc.edu> <4q04gk$sv3@news.wco.com> <4q1g6aINNcq9@rex.graphics.cornell.edu>
Reply-To: antirush
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc083032.concentric.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:15872 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1379 alt.solar.thermal:943

On 16 Jun 1996 13:27:38 -0400, mkc@rex.graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch
Collinsworth) wrote:

>In <4q04gk$sv3@news.wco.com> dkulha@wco.com (Donald Kulha) writes:
>
>>I
>>posted the control newgroup message a couple days ago to alt.config and
>>believe it took.
>
>Nope.  It was defective:
>(Path header line split by me)
>
>|Path: news.graphics.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!
>|news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!
>|news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!
>|world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hsno.wco.com!news.wco.com!
>|not-for-mail
>|From: dkulha@wco.com (Donald Kulha)
>|Newsgroups: alt.config
>|Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.energy.homepower
>|Control: newgroup alt.energy.homepower
>|Date: 14 Jun 1996 19:27:36 GMT
>|Organization: West Coast Online, Inc.
>|Lines: 25
>|Message-ID: <4psef8$h3b@news.wco.com>
>|NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.wco.com
>|X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
>|
>|Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.energy.homepower
>|Control: newgroup alt.energy.homepower
>|Approved: dkulha@wco.com
>|
>|For your newsgroups file:
>|[...]
>
>That blank line between X-Newsreader: and (the second) Subject: caused
>your Approved: line to be ignored by my news servers, so presumably the
>same thing happened elsewhere.  Everything after the first blank line
>is considered body, not headers.
>
>-Mitch
IF EVERYONE WALKED TO WORK WE WOULD BE SOLVING ALL OUR PROBLEMS IN
ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HIPOCIRTES DRIVE SOLAR,ELECTRIC,GAS POWERED CARS!
GROW UP AND LEARN



From redrok@pclink.com Sun Jun 23 22:18:15 EDT 1996
Article: 944 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Message-ID: <31C990D5.6361@pclink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:56:37 -0700
References: <4pg1ev$ai1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <jmucci-1206960059380001@pm113-04.dialip.mich.net> <31BF3945.5676@patriot.net> <jmucci-1306960156060001@pm113-19.dialip.mich.net> <4pqh2j$krl@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31C28728.15A9@patriot.net> <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 35

John D. Muccigrosso wrote:
> 
> There seems to be some serious disagreement over how long it takes an
> unisolated heat store to cool down, so let me propose a very hypothetical
> situation and see how many different answers I get. :-)
> 
> I have this infinitely large room with no windows at a constant
> temperature of 70 F. Into it, Moses-like, I place a wall of water, 10'
> high, 10' wide and 1' thick. The top, bottom and short sides of this wall
> are insulated to an R value of infinity. I heat the water in this wall to
> a uniform temperature of 100 F.
> 
> How long before the temperature of the water in the wall is 70 F?
> 
> Show all work. If you use approximate methods, please introduce no more
> than 25% error.
> 
> --
> John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
> jmucci@umich.edu                            University of Michigan

Ok two of us have answered the question the same way. Why have you not 
responded to us.
-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
(612)426-4766 h  635-5065 d



From david.williams@westonia.com Sun Jun 23 22:18:16 EDT 1996
Article: 945 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!infoshare!whome!gts!westonia!westnews!david.williams
From: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Passive Solar home to be built in RI?
Message-ID: <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 15:37:00 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Westonia Computer Systems of Canada
Reply-To: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net>
X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.3
X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.30
Lines: 17

-> There seems to be some serious disagreement over how long it takes an
-> unisolated heat store to cool down, so let me propose a very
-> hypothetical situation and see how many different answers I get. :-)
->
-> I have this infinitely large room with no windows at a constant
-> temperature of 70 F. Into it, Moses-like, I place a wall of water,
-> 10' high, 10' wide and 1' thick. The top, bottom and short sides of
-> this wall are insulated to an R value of infinity. I heat the water
-> in this wall to a uniform temperature of 100 F.
->
-> How long before the temperature of the water in the wall is 70 F?

Answer: Never. The temperature of the water will decline exponentially
towards the temperature of its surroundings - the 70 F room. It will
never *quite* get there.

                            dow


From xopher@ptd.net Sun Jun 23 22:18:16 EDT 1996
Article: 946 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news
From: xopher@ptd.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:13:13 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <4qa1nr$ilf@ns2.ptd.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-2.leh.ptd.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:946 alt.politics.economics:72626 alt.conspiracy:198322

antirush@cris.com (antirush) wrote:

>Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
>blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"


>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!

>1. Easy
>2. No Cost
>3. No new government laws to create
>4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
>and power hungry people with no lives...
>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!

Try walking down a typical American highway during rush hour. This
will greatly reduce your life expectancy. Living in one of the centers
of greatest population density with usuable public transit, like NYC,
has it's own hazards, too.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jun 23 22:18:17 EDT 1996
Article: 947 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Newton's law of cooling
Date: 23 Jun 1996 09:10:19 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: ignorance is bliss?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:947 sci.energy:51498 alt.energy.renewable:15921 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7627

DAVID WILLIAMS <david.williams@westonia.com> quotes:

>-> There seems to be some serious disagreement over how long it takes an
>-> unisolated heat store to cool down

Ignorant people have serious disagreements over surprisingly simple things.
One might resolve this with a teacup and a watch: start with boiling water,
put a lid over the cup to slow evaporation, and recall that things at 98 F
feel neither warm nor cool to the touch. 

>->...let me propose a very hypothetical situation...

>-> I have this infinitely large room with no windows at a constant
>-> temperature of 70 F. Into it, Moses-like, I place a wall of water,
>-> 10' high, 10' wide and 1' thick.

Sounds more like an anti-Moses :-) Doesn't he play antipodal trombone
with Bill Parker of the Red Sea Pedestrians? Let's ignore evaporation...

>-> The top, bottom and short sides of
>-> this wall are insulated to an R value of infinity. I heat the water
>-> in this wall to a uniform temperature of 100 F.

>-> How long before the temperature of the water in the wall is 70 F?

>Answer: Never. The temperature of the water will decline exponentially
>towards the temperature of its surroundings - the 70 F room. It will
>never *quite* get there.

Correct but stupid. A more interesting question is how long the water wall
will stay 15 F warmer than the room. The thermal resistance of a still air
film is about 2/3. The wall has two sides exposed to room air, and a cubic
foot of water weighs about 63 lb, so the RC time constant of the wall is
about 2/3/2ft^2x63 = 21 hours, over which time the initial wall-room temp
difference will decrease by a factor of 1/e, about 1/3. The wall temp at
time t will be T(t) = 70 + (100-70)exp(-t/21), so after time t in hours,
85=70+30exp(-t/21) ==> ln(15/30) = -t/21 or t = 14.6 hours, IF the room were
kept warm by other means. But why should that be important? We want to keep
the room warm with the wall, not vice-versa. 

If the water wall were half as thick, with about the same surface area and
volume as Will's water walls, it would have RC = 10.5 hours, so it would
cool to 85 F in -10.5 ln(1/2) = 7.3 hours, IF the room were kept at 70 F 
by other means ("Keep the Home Fires Burning" :-) 

If the room containing the wall needed 150 Btu/F-hr to stay warm, like Will's
house, in the dark, 24 hours a day, with the perfect ritual thermal curtains
so carefully drawn (who makes those, and how much do they cost?) and if it
were 40 F outside, what would the steady-state temp of the room be, if the
wall were 100 F? This has a simple electrical analog:

                       Troom
                       |       + 40 F -
100 F -------www-------|---------www----------40 F
             1/3/100             1/150

The total series resistance is 1/300 + 1/150 = 0.01, so the heat that flows
>from  left to right is (100-40)/0.01 = 6000 Btu/hr. This heat flowing through
1/150 "Ohm" makes a temperature difference of 6000/150 = 40 F, so the room
temperature would be 40 + 40 = 80 F. Warmish.

The RC time constant of the whole room, including the wall with 3200 lb of
water, might be about 0.01x3200 = 32 hours, so if there were no other source
of heat, the room temp T(t) after t hours might be

T(t) = 40 + (80-40)exp(-t/32) 

80                      0    
59                     24      
49                     48
...

How long would it take the room to reach 70 F? 70 = 40 + (80-40)exp(-t/32)
==> 30 = 40exp(-t/32) or t = -32ln(3/4) = 9.2 hours. If the room were 80 F at
3 PM on a mild winter day, what would the temp be at 9 AM the next morning?
T(18) = 40 + 40exp(-18/32) = 63 F.

How long could the wall keep the room at 70 F,  IF  its heat loss could be
controlled, vs uncontrolled natural cooling? The room needs (70-40)x150
= 4500 Btu/hr to stay 70 F, so the wall could keep the room at 70 F until
the wall temp reached Tmin = 70 + 4500/300 = 85 F. If the wall were 100 F to
start, and the room were 70 F, ie if the wall were somehow better insulated
to begin with, the wall could store (100-85)3200 = 48K Btu of usable heat,
and the wall could keep the room warm for about 48K/4500 = 10.7 hours.
A little better, but still not long.

If the same wall were inside an attic warmstore or solar closet, and started
out at 130 F, it might keep the house warm for (130-85)3200/4500 = 32 hours.
That's a higher-performance solar house. A solar closet might also dry food
or clothes, serve as a sauna, or make domestic hot water, which seems nice.
One might even build a solar oven into one's solar closet, and cook for a week
with no sun.

Adding a 36 Watt 560 cfm fan might lower the minimum usable space heating temp
to 75 F, extending the cloudy day heat storage time to (130-75)3200/4500 = 39
hours. Replacing the $2000 (?) window-blocking water walls with 220 recycled
5 gallon plastic paint pails, with lids, or 20 55 gallon drums in a 4' x 10'
x 6' tall solar closet would store (130-75)10,000 = 550K Btu of heat, for a
solar storage time of 550K/4500 = 122 hours or about 5 days, which would make
it a much nicer solar house, in my opinion.

Using a setback thermostat to make the house temp 60 F at night would lower
the average daily heating requirement to (8(60-40)+16(70-40))150 = 96K/day,
extending the solar storage time to 5.8 cloudy days. That can't be done with
exposed water walls. If the room were used as an office or workshop or school
or church, and it had little thermal mass, it might be 45 F at night and 70 F
for 8 hours a day, requiring only (16(45-40)+8(70-40))150 = 48K Btu/day, so a
well-insulated solar heat store would last for 11.5 days without sun. Better
still, but impossible using exposed water walls...

Nick



From graham@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu Sun Jun 23 22:18:17 EDT 1996
Article: 948 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!graham
From: graham@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu (Jim Graham)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Date: 19 Jun 1996 16:54:11 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4q9bbj$47q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ashima.iucf.indiana.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:948 alt.politics.economics:72823 alt.conspiracy:198632

antirush (antirush@cris.com) wrote:
> Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
> blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"


> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!

> 1. Easy
> 2. No Cost
> 3. No new government laws to create
> 4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
> and power hungry people with no lives...
> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!

Uh-uh...

An increase in the number of people who walk to work would mean an increase
in the amount of leather and rubber/chemical products necessary for the 
production of additional shoes due to additional wear.  

You'll only p*ss off the animal-rights wackos who value animals over 
humans, and the environmental wackos, who value flora and fauna over humans.

It won't work.

Cheers,
Jim Graham

--
"Does the government fear us?  Or do we fear the government?  When the people
fear the government, tyranny has found victory.  The federal government 
is our servant, not our master!"
- Thomas Jefferson



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Mon Jun 24 11:14:20 EDT 1996
Article: 949 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: 24 Jun 1996 10:33:43 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Summary: 100% solar heated low-income housing?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7286 alt.solar.thermal:949 sci.energy:51529 alt.energy.renewable:15931 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7645

Suppose we put a 10' x 30' x 7' tall mobile home up on blocks, and put 75
55 gallon plastic drums full of water underneath to make a solar closet
3' tall x 30' long x 10' deep, with a single wall south polycarbonate glazing
area of 90 ft^2, and a glazing area/thermal mass area ratio of about 25x75/90
= 21:1 :-) We could cover the south wall with another layer of polyethylene
or single wall polycarbonate (about $1/ft^2 from Replex at (800) 726-5151)
that extended up to the roof of the mobile home, ie another 30' x 10' of
glazing to make a low-thermal-mass sunspace...

Or we might put it the mobile home inside a 30' wide x 70' long x 13' tall
commercial plastic film greenhouse to act as a sunspace. The usual covering
is 2 layers of 5 cent/ft^2 polyethylene film, with a 3 year guarantee,
statically-inflated with a 50 watt blower. A better cover for a residence
might be 1 layer of very clear Mylar, ie polyester film, which might cost
10 cents/ft^2 and last 10 years, with a layer of greenhouse shadecloth over
the outside in summertime. Wind fatigue might be prevented by making a partial
vacuum inside with an exhaust fan when the wind is blowing, using a wind
switch, or making some sort of venturi ridge vent. Putting the mobile home
inside this $1500 greenhouse would allow more daytime living space, storage
of not very valuable items, rainwater collection, food growing, sewage
treatment, methane production for cooking gas (?), and water recycling,
as well as a place to work during the day.

Where I live in PA, with an average 4"/month of rainfall, this 3000 ft^2
greenhouse roof would collect an average of 240 gallons of water a day.
A reliable water supply might require a cistern/pond volume of 10K gallons,
eg a pond 4' deep x 12' wide x 26' long, made from a single piece of 20' wide
EPDM rubber. Less volume would be needed if used water were recycled by
condensing it between the poly film greenhouse pillows. 

Using aluminum extrusion clamps (from E C Geiger at (800) 4GEIGER, geigerintl
@hortnet.com, http://www.hortnet.com.geigerintl/) 33-SL16 Unilock, $12.80/16',
also available from Stuppy at (800) 877-5025) for the poly film makes changing
and recycling it every 3 years not much more work than changing a bedsheet,
on a calm day.

Composting would help with food growing too. I wonder how much CO2 a ft^3 of
good compost makes each day. My NRAES 33 book (page 120) says plants need
about 0.003 ft^3 CO2/hr-ft^2 of greenhouse floor area, and give off CO2 
(how much?) at night, and a greenhouse might have about 0.5 ACH, and the
earth's atmosphere is about 0.03% CO2. The more CO2 the better, I guess.
Are high levels harmful to humans? Helpful to dinosaurs?

Putting the solar closet under the mobile home means we get some heat through
the floor, which would otherwise be wasted if the closet were adjacent, and
if we open a motorized damper under a floor return, we might easily get warm
air to flow up into the mobile home by natural convection. The drums need a
vapor barrier underneath. 

Suppose we run this "polytunnel" EW and capture all the sun that falls on
its south "wall," about 13' high and 70' long, ie about 1000 Btu/ft^2/day
x 13' x 64' x 0.92^2 (2 layers of poly film) = 704K Btu/day on an average
day in December in Philadelphia, when the average outdoor temp is 36 F.
The tunnel ridge might be raised to 15' with longer ground posts.

Adding a strip of white poly film on the ground or a white deck along the
south side of the mobile home, or adding a shallow frozen reflecting pool
along the south side of the greenhouse, outside, might increase the solar
input by about 1/3. The polytunnel would be a half cylinder with a roof
length along the curve of 47', so the roof area would be 47x70 = 3300 ft^2,
and the endwalls will make this 4000 ft^2 total. If this is all US R1.2, we
have 704K Btu/day going in over 6 hours, and 6(T-40)4000/1.2 = 20K(T-40)
leaving, so the average December daytime temp inside the greenhouse would be
36 + 704K/20K = 71 F. We would want a slow ceiling fan or two to bring down
some warm air from the peak. 

Recall the mobile home is 10 x 30 x 7' tall. Suppose the R-values of the
walls and roof are US R11, and the windows are US R2, double glazed, with
64 ft^2 of window area on the south and 64 ft^2 on the other sides. 

This makes a thermal conductance of about 2(10+30)7/11 + 10x30/11 + 128/2
= 50 + 27 + 64 = 141 Btu/hr-F, so keeping the mobile home warm for 24 hours
on a cloudy day might take 24x(68-36)141 = 108K Btu/day. Less on a day with
an average amount of sun, since the sunspace side or polytunnel will be
warmer during 6 hours. The sunspace, eg the glazed south side of the mobile
home might collect about 300x1000 = 300K Btu/day, and lose 1/4 of that to
the outside via the sunspace glazing, which seems fine on an average December
day, and the 75 drums full of water underneath would store (120-80)75x500
= 1500K Btu of usable space heat at 120 F (we might want some insulation on top
of the drums), enough for about 14 cloudy days in a row. Sounds like too many
drums. Will the steady-state December temp of the drums be at least 120 F?

Say the mobile home has an R11 floor, and the skirt around the drums is
insulated with R30 strawbales. Then we have about 90 ft^2 x 1.33 (with
a white surface in front) x 1000 Btu/ft^2/day x 0.92^2 = 101K Btu going
into the solar closet each day, and about 

   6 hours (T-71) 90 ft^2/R1        south wall, day
+ 18 hours (T-36) 90 ft^2/R30           "       night
+ 24 hours (T-68) 300 ft^2/R11      mobile home floor, 24 hours
+ 24 hours (T-36) 150 ft^2/R30          "       ENW skirt, 24 hours,
--------------------------------
= 540T - 38340
+  54T -  1944
+ 654T - 44509
+ 120T -  4320
---------------
= 1368T - 89113 = 104K,

so the steady-state December temperature of the drums would be 

(104K + 89K)/1368 = 141 F. Looks good... 

We might want a window fan or two turning on with a thermostat set to 130 F
in a small darkened glazed box exposed to the sun, to help move warm air
through the solar closet when the sun is shining... 3' is probably not enough
height to make plastic film backdraft dampers work well. 

And we'd want about 20' of fin-tube pipe under the floor, in a thermosyphon 
loop with the water heater in the mobile home, so the electric heating element
seldom turns on. That might require a bit more solar closet glazing, ie we
might put the mobile home 4' off the ground, so the solar closet glazing is
4' tall instead of 3', since Replex and Dynaglas plastics come in rolls and
sheets a bit over 49" wide.

Nick



From praxis@netside.net Wed Jun 26 14:40:22 EDT 1996
Article: 950 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sunny.netside.net!usenet
From: praxis@netside.net (Al Doogie)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:26:12 GMT
Organization: NetSide Corporation
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4qc4tb$9pl@sunny.netside.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <4q9bbj$47q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: www.netside.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:950 alt.politics.economics:73018 alt.conspiracy:199001

graham@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu (Jim Graham) wrote:

>antirush (antirush@cris.com) wrote:
>> Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
>> blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"


>> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!

>> 1. Easy
>> 2. No Cost
>> 3. No new government laws to create
>> 4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
>> and power hungry people with no lives...
>> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!

>Uh-uh...

>An increase in the number of people who walk to work would mean an increase
>in the amount of leather and rubber/chemical products necessary for the 
>production of additional shoes due to additional wear.  

>You'll only p*ss off the animal-rights wackos who value animals over 
>humans, and the environmental wackos, who value flora and fauna over humans.

>It won't work.

>Cheers,
>Jim Graham

>--
>"Does the government fear us?  Or do we fear the government?  When the people
>fear the government, tyranny has found victory.  The federal government 
>is our servant, not our master!"
>- Thomas Jefferson

I agree. Although maybe not with the same sentiments in mind. Problem is, urban planning has made this difficult because residential areas are so far away from work areas, that it would not be
practical. You would have a bunch of sweaty and tired people showing up to work late. I think the soundest alternative, in our post-industrial society, is mass transportation. The challege is in
stimulating it's growth. How do you get people out of their cars, and into buses, subways, and trains,. without excessively infringing on their "freedom of choice"?



From pthom@nr.infi.net Wed Jun 26 14:40:22 EDT 1996
Article: 951 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!usenet
From: pthom@nr.infi.net (Gunslinger)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 11:05:48 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pa1dsp4.nr.infi.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/16.182
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7289 alt.solar.thermal:951 sci.energy:51550 alt.energy.renewable:15934 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7670

On 24 Jun 1996 10:33:43 -0400, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
wrote:

Yo, Nick! 
10 x 30 x 7 is more like a _camper_ than a mobile home (from one who
currently lives in a 14 x 70 x about 12 mobile home.)

=>Or we might put it the mobile home inside a 30' wide x 70' long x
13' tall
=>commercial plastic film greenhouse to act as a sunspace. The usual
covering
=>is 2 layers of 5 cent/ft^2 polyethylene film, with a 3 year
guarantee,
=>statically-inflated with a 50 watt blower. 
**snip**
 Putting the mobile home
=>inside this $1500 greenhouse would allow more daytime living space,
storage
=>of not very valuable items, rainwater collection, food growing,
sewage
=>treatment, methane production for cooking gas (?), and water
recycling,
=>as well as a place to work during the day.
**snip**

Seems to me it would get too hot to do much in the way of work, except
in the dead of winter.

=>Putting the solar closet under the mobile home means we get some
heat through
=>the floor, which would otherwise be wasted if the closet were
adjacent, and
=>if we open a motorized damper under a floor return, we might easily
get warm
=>air to flow up into the mobile home by natural convection. 

And you would lose the valuable storage space underneath the home,
thus requiring the construction of some sort of outbuilding.

Idea:
What about setting the mobile home against a hillside, framing awnings
over the outward facing windows and door(s), blowing shot-crete over
the whole thing (for strength), and then covering it all with dirt,
blending it in with the contour of the hillside. Might be the world's
first earth-sheltered mobile home.
   ______                        __   _                     
  / ____/ __  __  ____   _____  / /  (_)  ____   ____ _ ___   _____
 / / __  / / / / / __ \ / ___/ / /  / /  / __ \ / __ `// _ \ / ___/
/ /_/ / / /_/ / / / / /(__  ) / /  / /  / / / // /_/ //  __// /
\____/  \__,_/ /_/ /_//____/ /_/  /_/  /_/ /_/ \__, / \___//_/
                                              /____/
 
 
I've done so much with so little for so long, 
that now I can do anything with nothing at all.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun 26 14:40:23 EDT 1996
Article: 952 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: 25 Jun 1996 10:25:42 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <4qost6$ivq@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7290 alt.solar.thermal:952 sci.energy:51557 alt.energy.renewable:15937 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7675

Gunslinger <pthom@nr.infi.net> wrote:

>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
 
>Yo, Nick! 

Greetings, Gunslinger...

>10 x 30 x 7 is more like a _camper_ than a mobile home (from one who
>currently lives in a 14 x 70 x about 12 mobile home.)

I used to know a couple who lived in a pickup truck... You have more space
than most sailors... I wonder why yours is 12' tall, 8'+ wheels? And how
do you haul that 14' wide thing on the road? Someone was telling me that
there are more mobile homes sold in this country than houses, these days.
I'd like to find a manufacturer who is interested in solar heating them.

>Seems to me it would get too hot to do much in the way of work, except
>in the dead of winter.

Putting some shadecloth over the south wall, rolling up the plastic film at
the edges, opening endwall doors and having a vent or two at the top might
take care of that, leaving this house in the shade cooler than most houses
sitting in sun. One might also cover the flat roof with a single layer of
EPDM rubber, with a 2" board under the edge, to make a shallow pond to keep
the roof at the wet-bulb temp. And divide the solar closet underneath into
two sections, one to stay hot for hot water, and one to stay cool by night
ventilation. The cool part might have another shallow EPDM rubber pond
underneath, and one might pump some of the cool water up into the house
through a fan coil unit.

Let's see. You have 2(14+70)x8' of R11 walls, and 200 ft^2 of R2 windows?
For an overall thermal conductance of 220 Btu/hr-F, which might gain
8 hr(95.5-75)222 = 36K Btu/day at 75 F inside in August in Austin TX, where
the average daytime high is 95.5 F and the average wet bulb temp is 69 F.
This might raise the temp of 60 drums full of water from 69 F to 69 F +
36K/30K Btu/F = 70.2 F every day, before the water cools down again at night.

The $139 all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct heat exchanger made by Magicaire
might make a nice fan coil unit, if attached to the suction side of a $20
box fan. It moves 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm,
with a 0.1" H20 air pressure drop, so it might move 4K Btu/hr with a 5 F
delta T, ie 70 F water and 75 F air. You'd want a tiny submersible pump to
move about 4000/5/8/60 = 1.6 gpm through a head of about 4'. Hmmm. That's 
about 1 ft lb/sec, and 1 HP is 550 ft-lb/sec, or 746 Watts, so a perfect
pump might use 1.2 Watts for that job. Putting the duct heat exchanger up
near the ceiling would be a good idea, with a thermostat to turn on the fan,
and a gutter and drain under the heat exchanger. 

You might control humidity with a solar-dried dessicant system, eg a nice
triethylene glycol (which absorbs 11X its weight in water) or lithium chloride
pond on the roof, or a thin reinforced concrete floor with some insulation
underneath in the greenhouse, or some sort of vermiculite, charcoal, zeolite,
clay or calcium chloride sandbox, or even a pile of sheepskins somewhere
inside the greenhouse (a wool rug will absorb 23% of its weight in water from
moist air, according to the ASHRAE HOF), all exposed to the sun and vented
outside during the day, and washed with house air at night.  

>=>Putting the solar closet under the mobile home means we get some
>=>heat through the floor, which would otherwise be wasted if the closet were
>=>adjacent, and if we open a motorized damper under a floor return, we might
>=>easily get warm air to flow up into the mobile home by natural convection. 
 
>And you would lose the valuable storage space underneath the home,
>thus requiring the construction of some sort of outbuilding.

Like a 30' wide x 100' long x 15' tall commercial plastic film greenhouse
to enclose your mobile home, costing $2K, requiring 1 day for 3 people to
set up, from scratch? :-)

>Idea:
>What about setting the mobile home against a hillside, framing awnings
>over the outward facing windows and door(s), blowing shot-crete over
>the whole thing (for strength), and then covering it all with dirt,
>blending it in with the contour of the hillside. Might be the world's
>first earth-sheltered mobile home.

I wouldn't call that very "mobile" :-) You might hump up the flat roof with
some soil first, to make it stronger. And put some sort of insulation over
the shotcrete, perhaps, and a layer of EPDM rubber over that. Putting some
large rocks on top of the soil might make for an interesting vaulted stone
ceiling inside your underground mobile home, if you removed the roof and soil
after the concrete set. You might want to consult an architect re aesthetics.

I like Monolithic Domes (800) 608-0001, which are made by inflating an
airform (like a tennis court cover), spraying the inside with 3" of urethane
foam, wiring up some rebar, and spraying the inside with 2" of shotcrete...
These can be wonderful passive solar structures, as well as fireproof,
tornadoproof, fast and cheap. They have been building these things up to 
260' hemispheres so far, for 20 years now, and they are working on plans for
1200' hemispheres. At last year's convention, someone asked whether he
could bury one under 60' of dirt. The answer was yes. Oddly enough,
nobody asked why.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

					  Tom Smith 


From allend@pt.cyanamid.com Wed Jun 26 14:40:24 EDT 1996
Article: 953 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!news.cyanamid.com!PTR033
From: allend@pt.cyanamid.com (david allen)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 20:44:41 GMT
Organization: cyanamid
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4qpj4h$h5r@igate2.pt.cyanamid.com>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.173.54.33
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7293 alt.solar.thermal:953 sci.energy:51564 alt.energy.renewable:15940 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7680

In article <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>,
   pthom@nr.infi.net (Gunslinger) wrote:
>On 24 Jun 1996 10:33:43 -0400, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
>wrote:
>
>Idea:
>What about setting the mobile home against a hillside, framing awnings
>over the outward facing windows and door(s), blowing shot-crete over
>the whole thing (for strength), and then covering it all with dirt,
>blending it in with the contour of the hillside. Might be the world's
>first earth-sheltered mobile home.

not the first,  its common practice to use a mobile home as an 'insert' into a 
concrete lined cave or hole.  it greatly simplefies design considerations, 
but, it does constrain you to live in a mobile home floorplan (cheap or custom 
is allways a tradeoff).

da


Copyright, Dr. D.R. Allen, D.Chem., 1996. Microsoft Network is
prohibited from redistributing this work in any form, in whole or
in part. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft
for $1,000. Appearance constitutes an agreement to these
terms. Please send notices of violation to Postmaster@microsoft.com
and allend@pt.cyanamid.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Jun 26 14:40:25 EDT 1996
Article: 954 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Low-Mass Sunspace Question
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:30:03 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <4qq0ab$2a5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7294 alt.solar.thermal:954 sci.energy:51567 alt.energy.renewable:15942 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7685

>From  this afternoon's email...

>Awhile ago (May 8, to be exact) you posted in alt.energy.renewable a 
>comparison of a high-mass sunspace to a very low-mass sunspace.  I like the
>idea of the low-mass alternative with a solar closet in a well insulated
>part of the house.

OK...

>In the post your calculations are based on maintaining the sunspace at 80F
>during the day.  You also mention that the water in the solar closet starts
>out at 130F and cools to 80F as its heat is needed to maintain the house
>temperature.  My question is, how does the water get up to 130F?  

The solar closet has an air heater on the south insulated side, so the sun
shines through the sunspace glazing, then through the solar closet air heater
glazing, and heats up the air inside the closet air heater to about 130 F. 

>I assume there is some kind of heat exchanger transferring the heat in the
>80F sunspace air to the water in the solar closet. 

No. There's no air exchange between the sunspace and solar closet, just sun, 
passing through the sunspace, then thru the solar closet glazing. A lot of
people seem to miss this. Perhaps it needs a better explanation. 

>As I understand it, the sunspace air must be allowed to get hotter than 130F
>at some time to get an efficient energy transfer.

No. Take a look at this two dimensional version:

           S1              S2               S3
32 F       |     T1        |       T2       |       70 F
outdoors   |               |                |       house
           |               |                |
1 ft^2 of  |    1 ft^2 of  |  1 ft^2 of R10 |
R1 glazing |    R1 glazing |         wall...|
           |               |                |
           |               |                |
1200 Btu   |    sunspace   |  solar closet  |
per ft^2   |               |                |
of sun over|               |                |
a 6 hour   |               |                |
day -->    |               |                |
           |               |                |
 
If surface S2 were dark-colored, with an infinite R-value, so there were no
other place for the solar energy to go, the average 200 Btu/hour of sun would
raise temperature T1 until all the heat that came into the S1 glazing went
back out through the glazing, so 200 = (T1-32)x1ft^2/R1, or T1 = 232 F. Right?

Now suppose S2 is perfectly transparent, with an R-value of 1, and S3 is dark,
with an R-value of 10. What will T2 be? Here's the electrical analog:

     ------------
 |  | 200 Btu/hr |
||--|   ----->   |-------     (The sun is a current source.)
 |  |            |       |
     ------------        |
                         |
32 F ---www--------www---------www--- 70 F
        R1    |    R1    |     R10
             80 F        T2

Say enough hot air is bled out of the sunspace into the house to keep the
sunspace at 80 F. Then we have 200 = (T2-80)1 ft^2/R1 + (T2-70)1ft^2/R10,
ie 200 = T2 - 80 + 0.1T2 - 7, ie 287 = 1.1T2, or T2 = 261 F, so you see the
solar closet can be a lot warmer than the sunspace, when there is no air
exchange between them, just sun passing through one space and into the other.

If each glazed surface were perfectly transparent, and there were N panes
of glass, each having an R-value of 1 (counting the still air film), and the
last surface were perfectly insulated, the temperature T in the last space
would be such that 200 = (T-32)/N, ie T = 32 + 200N. You can see something
like this if you put an oven thermometer on the lawn on a sunny day and cover
it with a few panes of glass, eg a few old storm windows. The thermometer
goes up to a few hundred degrees quickly, and the grass quickly turns brown.
The same thing happens inside a solar water heating panel on the roof, if
the pump fails, which is called "collector stagnation." 

Nick



From LVMarc@worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 26 14:40:26 EDT 1996
Article: 955 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Marc Popek <LVMarc@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Newton's law of cooling
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:57:51 -0700
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <31D0D15F.3442@worldnet.att.net>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.los-angeles-1.ca.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I)
To: Nick Pine <nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:955 sci.energy:51572 alt.energy.renewable:15944 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7695

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> DAVID WILLIAMS <david.williams@westonia.com> quotes:
> 
> >-> There seems to be some serious disagreement over how long it takes an
> >-> unisolated heat store to cool down
> 
> Ignorant people have serious disagreements over surprisingly simple things.
> One might resolve this with a teacup and a watch: start with boiling water,
> put a lid over the cup to slow evaporation, and recall that things at 98 F
> feel neither warm nor cool to the touch.
> 
> >->...let me propose a very hypothetical situation...
> 
> >-> I have this infinitely large room with no windows at a constant
> >-> temperature of 70 F. Into it, Moses-like, I place a wall of water,
> >-> 10' high, 10' wide and 1' thick.
> 
> Sounds more like an anti-Moses :-) Doesn't he play antipodal trombone
> with Bill Parker of the Red Sea Pedestrians? Let's ignore evaporation...
> 
> >-> The top, bottom and short sides of
> >-> this wall are insulated to an R value of infinity. I heat the water
> >-> in this wall to a uniform temperature of 100 F.
> 
> >-> How long before the temperature of the water in the wall is 70 F?
> 
> >Answer: Never. The temperature of the water will decline exponentially
> >towards the temperature of its surroundings - the 70 F room. It will
> >never *quite* get there.
> 
> Correct but stupid. A more interesting question is how long the water wall
> will stay 15 F warmer than the room. The thermal resistance of a still air
> film is about 2/3. The wall has two sides exposed to room air, and a cubic
> foot of water weighs about 63 lb, so the RC time constant of the wall is
> about 2/3/2ft^2x63 = 21 hours, over which time the initial wall-room temp
> difference will decrease by a factor of 1/e, about 1/3. The wall temp at
> time t will be T(t) = 70 + (100-70)exp(-t/21), so after time t in hours,
> 85=70+30exp(-t/21) ==> ln(15/30) = -t/21 or t = 14.6 hours, IF the room were
> kept warm by other means. But why should that be important? We want to keep
> the room warm with the wall, not vice-versa.
> 
> If the water wall were half as thick, with about the same surface area and
> volume as Will's water walls, it would have RC = 10.5 hours, so it would
> cool to 85 F in -10.5 ln(1/2) = 7.3 hours, IF the room were kept at 70 F
> by other means ("Keep the Home Fires Burning" :-)
> 
> If the room containing the wall needed 150 Btu/F-hr to stay warm, like Will's
> house, in the dark, 24 hours a day, with the perfect ritual thermal curtains
> so carefully drawn (who makes those, and how much do they cost?) and if it
> were 40 F outside, what would the steady-state temp of the room be, if the
> wall were 100 F? This has a simple electrical analog:
> 
>                        Troom
>                        |       + 40 F -
> 100 F -------www-------|---------www----------40 F
>              1/3/100             1/150
> 
> The total series resistance is 1/300 + 1/150 = 0.01, so the heat that flows
> from left to right is (100-40)/0.01 = 6000 Btu/hr. This heat flowing through
> 1/150 "Ohm" makes a temperature difference of 6000/150 = 40 F, so the room
> temperature would be 40 + 40 = 80 F. Warmish.
> 
> The RC time constant of the whole room, including the wall with 3200 lb of
> water, might be about 0.01x3200 = 32 hours, so if there were no other source
> of heat, the room temp T(t) after t hours might be
> 
> T(t) = 40 + (80-40)exp(-t/32)
> 
> 80                      0
> 59                     24
> 49                     48
> ...
> 
> How long would it take the room to reach 70 F? 70 = 40 + (80-40)exp(-t/32)
> ==> 30 = 40exp(-t/32) or t = -32ln(3/4) = 9.2 hours. If the room were 80 F at
> 3 PM on a mild winter day, what would the temp be at 9 AM the next morning?
> T(18) = 40 + 40exp(-18/32) = 63 F.
> 
> How long could the wall keep the room at 70 F,  IF  its heat loss could be
> controlled, vs uncontrolled natural cooling? The room needs (70-40)x150
> = 4500 Btu/hr to stay 70 F, so the wall could keep the room at 70 F until
> the wall temp reached Tmin = 70 + 4500/300 = 85 F. If the wall were 100 F to
> start, and the room were 70 F, ie if the wall were somehow better insulated
> to begin with, the wall could store (100-85)3200 = 48K Btu of usable heat,
> and the wall could keep the room warm for about 48K/4500 = 10.7 hours.
> A little better, but still not long.
> 
> If the same wall were inside an attic warmstore or solar closet, and started
> out at 130 F, it might keep the house warm for (130-85)3200/4500 = 32 hours.
> That's a higher-performance solar house. A solar closet might also dry food
> or clothes, serve as a sauna, or make domestic hot water, which seems nice.
> One might even build a solar oven into one's solar closet, and cook for a week
> with no sun.
> 
> Adding a 36 Watt 560 cfm fan might lower the minimum usable space heating temp
> to 75 F, extending the cloudy day heat storage time to (130-75)3200/4500 = 39
> hours. Replacing the $2000 (?) window-blocking water walls with 220 recycled
> 5 gallon plastic paint pails, with lids, or 20 55 gallon drums in a 4' x 10'
> x 6' tall solar closet would store (130-75)10,000 = 550K Btu of heat, for a
> solar storage time of 550K/4500 = 122 hours or about 5 days, which would make
> it a much nicer solar house, in my opinion.
> 
> Using a setback thermostat to make the house temp 60 F at night would lower
> the average daily heating requirement to (8(60-40)+16(70-40))150 = 96K/day,
> extending the solar storage time to 5.8 cloudy days. That can't be done with
> exposed water walls. If the room were used as an office or workshop or school
> or church, and it had little thermal mass, it might be 45 F at night and 70 F
> for 8 hours a day, requiring only (16(45-40)+8(70-40))150 = 48K Btu/day, so a
> well-insulated solar heat store would last for 11.5 days without sun. Better
> still, but impossible using exposed water walls...
> 
> Nick


What your point, Nick
Should we setback the temperature slightly when we come and go .. in and 
out of our homes?

Should lwe let the furnace roar in the winter to maintsin the wall 
temps??

Should we run the compressors too keep the walls cool?? or should we
add sensors to our thermostats that autmatically knew your coming and 
goings

The t-stat we know your " laws of colling and automajic setback the 
temperature sot hat thermal recovery was a set specified nkmber of 
minutes?????


From chita@adnc.com Wed Jun 26 14:40:27 EDT 1996
Article: 956 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!taurus!news
From: chita@adnc.com
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:52:51 GMT
Organization: adnc.com
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net>
Reply-To: chita@adnc.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.216.159.38
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7297 alt.solar.thermal:956 sci.energy:51580 alt.energy.renewable:15948 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7708

    Speaking of mobile homes - -   doesn't it seem as if every
realtor-dominated zoning board in America decided long ago to make
sure nobody could actually build any REALLY cheap housing?  <sigh>
 
    



From chad_b@wcla.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:42 EDT 1996
Article: 957 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newspump.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!news
From: Chad Berreau <chad_b@wcla.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: mobile homes inside commercial plastic film greenhouses
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 14:32:54 -0500
Organization: Wirtanen Clark Larsen Architects, Inc
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31D19066.708F@wcla.com>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net> <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com>
Reply-To: chad_b@wcla.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.199.124.109
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7298 alt.solar.thermal:957 sci.energy:51583 alt.energy.renewable:15951 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7710

chita@adnc.com wrote:
> 
>     Speaking of mobile homes - -   doesn't it seem as if every
> realtor-dominated zoning board in America decided long ago to make
> sure nobody could actually build any REALLY cheap housing?  <sigh>
> 
> 
Have you ever been in a trailer home once the winds reach 50+mph.  It 
sounds like a tornado is right overhead.

Maybe what should be done is to design trailer homes to be more 
comfortable and not so easily moved in high winds.  

BTW I don't think that Mother Nature really likes trailer homes.  Just 
check the news the next time a tornado or straight line winds hits an 
area.

Modular homes though do seem a bit better constructed and secured than 
and trailer home I have ever seen.


From antirush Sun Jul  7 14:39:42 EDT 1996
Article: 958 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news
From: antirush@cris.com (antirush)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:57:30 GMT
Organization: antirush
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <31cbc2e7.9599461@news.concentric.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <4q9bbj$47q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <4qc4tb$9pl@sunny.netside.net>
Reply-To: antirush
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc083033.concentric.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:958 alt.politics.economics:73355 alt.conspiracy:199824

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:26:12 GMT, praxis@netside.net (Al Doogie)
wrote:

>graham@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu (Jim Graham) wrote:
>
>>antirush (antirush@cris.com) wrote:
>>> Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
>>> blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"
>
>
>>> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!
>
>>> 1. Easy
>>> 2. No Cost
>>> 3. No new government laws to create
>>> 4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
>>> and power hungry people with no lives...
>>> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!
>
>>Uh-uh...
>
>>An increase in the number of people who walk to work would mean an increase
>>in the amount of leather and rubber/chemical products necessary for the 
>>production of additional shoes due to additional wear.  
>
>>You'll only p*ss off the animal-rights wackos who value animals over 
>>humans, and the environmental wackos, who value flora and fauna over humans.
>
>>It won't work.
>
>>Cheers,
>>Jim Graham
>
>>--
>>"Does the government fear us?  Or do we fear the government?  When the people
>>fear the government, tyranny has found victory.  The federal government 
>>is our servant, not our master!"
>>- Thomas Jefferson
>
>I agree. Although maybe not with the same sentiments in mind. Problem is, urban planning has made this difficult because residential areas are so far away from work areas, that it would not be
>practical. You would have a bunch of sweaty and tired people showing up to work late. I think the soundest alternative, in our post-industrial society, is mass transportation. The challege is in
>stimulating it's growth. How do you get people out of their cars, and into buses, subways, and trains,. without excessively infringing on their "freedom of choice"?
>
Place things on those buses that can make the trip enjoyable and
attractive. Activities + Safety = Everyone would use mass transit.
If it's fast, cheap, comfortable and doesn't threaten you, then your
going to use the system. Imagine getting on a bus that has free
coca-cola? Or a bus that is for christians? Jews? Etc? You could ride
the bus you were most comfortable in, and would be safe.
This can and should be done...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 19:23 "A rich man has as much of a chance of going to heaven as a camel  through the eye of a needle."  
Matthew 19:21 "Sell all you have and give it to the poor."
Matthew 22:39 "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Matthew 5:39  "Turn the other cheek.  Love your enemies."  
Matthew 6:5   "Don't pray in public like the hypocrites.  Instead,  pray in  private."   
Matthew 7:1   "Don't judge others. Why worry about a speck in the eye of your brother when you have a board in your own?" 
Just think, thats just a few verses from the FIRST book of the New Testament.................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
YOU CAN'T POLISH A TURD..................
YOU CAN'T DO IT WITH A MAGNIFYING GLASS EITHER...
YOU CAN'T MAKE A BRASS LAMP OUT OF A TURD EITHER...
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THIS SIGNATURE...
http://www.cris.com/~antirush
THE CRUSH RUSH FUND!!!!!!!!!!!
Calling sponsors of his show for the next 3 months!!!
$25+ Million in funding NOW!!
37,500 members and GROWING!!!!!
________________________________________________________


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jul  7 14:39:43 EDT 1996
Article: 959 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Newton's law of cooling
Date: 27 Jun 1996 03:53:15 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4qtelb$98i@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31D0D15F.3442@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:959 sci.energy:51606 alt.energy.renewable:15957 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7719

Marc Popek  <LVMarc@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
 
>What your point, Nick

1. Uninsulated things cool fairly quickly in air.

2. Solar houses in partly cloudy climates work better if their thermal mass
   is insulated from the living space, and has an average temperature
   that is higher than the living space temperature. 

3. Given this higher temperature, you can also make hot water for showers, etc.

>Should we setback the temperature slightly when we come and go .. in and 
>out of our homes?

Makes sense to me, if we have low-thermal-mass houses. Turn down the
thermostat at night, or when we go to work...

>Should lwe let the furnace roar in the winter to maintsin the wall temps??

I think we should use the sun to heat houses.

>Should we run the compressors too keep the walls cool??

I'd say use more natural cooling, which can work in many locations.  

>or should we add sensors to our thermostats that autmatically knew
>your coming and goings
 
Interesting idea. Might work in a very low thermal mass house, with a
low-thermal-mass overhead radiant or forced air heating system. Like hallway 
lights that turn on ahead and turn off behind people, as they walk along? 
 
>The t-stat we know your " laws of colling and automajic setback the 
>temperature sot hat thermal recovery was a set specified nkmber of 
>minutes?????

I'm not sure what to make of that...

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jul  7 14:39:43 EDT 1996
Article: 960 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass
Date: 27 Jun 1996 06:45:01 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 146
Message-ID: <4qtond$9dh@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4qommq$3vv@goofy.BrandonU.CA> <4qotde$j25@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <daniel-2606962126220001@ffx43.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:960 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7723 alt.energy.renewable:15958

<daniel@laser.net> wrote:
>nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>> Mike Dickson <mdickson@common.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >I was wondering what was the best material to make a thermal mass out of,
>> 
>> Water is good. About 3 times more heat capacity (62 Btu/F-ft^3) than rocks
>> or concrete by volume, with less thermal and airflow resistance, in sealed
>> containers. Iron or steel are almost as good, at 54 Btu/F-ft^3, but more 
>> expensive...
>
>Right. Water.

It's nice we agree on that. 

>> >I plan to run pipes through it and heat with hot water from a
>> >solar collector. Any ideas.
>> 
>> Sounds complicated and expensive.
>
>Balderdash!

I'll see your balderdash, and raise one balderdash :-) Does $30/ft^2 seem
cheap to you, not counting roof mounting brackets and installation and
insulated pipes and tanks and antifreeze and heat exchangers and pumps
and the electrical power needed to run the pumps, IF that square foot of
"solar collector" only collects the heat equivalent of a gallon or two
of oil per year, and that's ALL it does, vs a sunspace or a transparent
south roof or solar siding on a house?

>Nick, we keep going over the same material. 

True. You should give up. Or use numbers.

>Air is a pitiful heat transfer medium.

True, compared to water.

>The only thing that is has is fluidity.

No, it also has heat capacity, and it doesn't freeze, which is nice, and
it requires no plumbing or heat exchangers, and sometimes no pumps or fans,
and leaks are not a serious business. It wasn't long ago that one of the
alternative energy experts around here said "air has no mass." :-)

>How umpteen many more times heat capacity has water got than air

About 4000 umpteen times, by volume, 1000 times less density and 1/4 the
specific heat by weight. Is this a problem? Can planes fly? Should we
abandon them all for boats? 

>(the range of air's heat capacity that you're going to give me will
>relate directly to how much water vapor is in that air)?

Wrong again. Why don't YOU come up with that range? Water vapor does
make a small difference. Care to guess which direction? :-)

>Water can be pumped thru 1/2" pipes that are easily insulated, taking up
>much less indoor (read valuable) real estate,

It may surprise you to learn that air may not need pipes, that one can move
air through whole rooms and floors and walls and ceilings sometimes, with
absolutely no loss of floorspace.

>How much more efficient a heat exchange would that be than blowing warm air
>around a room with 55 gal drums in it?

I give up. How much? You tell me. Where are your numbers? Why does this matter?

>Add to that the longevity of copper pipe

Do we also add the longevity of wood or drywall or fiberglass insulation 
or plastic 55 gallon drums? :-) 

>and the ability to take heat off from this storage tank with more
>copper pipe to feed DHW,

I'd use about 20' of fin-tube pipe for that, in a thermosyphon loop.

>or your spa, or your pool, or any one of your space heat zones without
>heating rooms above or adjacent to the storage room or the ducting

Insulation... Another matter of numbers. Where are your numbers, Dan?
  
>and the cost and complexity become minor.

Perhaps, if you are rich as Croesus, or enjoy complexity.
Did you say you were in the copper piping business, Dan? :-)
 
>>>I may just blow air over it instead of running water pipes through it
>>>if this turns out to be much easier or better.
 
>>Good idea. Using free 55 gallon plastic drums or recycled 5 gallon paint
>>pails, with lids? Or $25 waterbed mattresses holding 300 gallons, or big
>>cheap circular swimming pools, or plywood boxes or trenches made with a
>>single 28 cent/ft^2 piece of 20' wide EPDM rubber roofing material folded up
>>like a Chinese restaurant takeout box?
 
>If, like most fluid based systems... the storage temps consistantly approach
>150F plastic drums, $25 waterbed mattresses, and cheap swimming pools are a
>disaster waiting to happen.

So are airplanes, especially lately. Engineers specialize in disasters
waiting to happen. The better ones avert disasters for a very long time.

>Your trench idea will work up to a point. The ground will become a heat
>sink and cool your storage off...

This is a matter of degree, of course. Numbers again, and design. Looked at
figure 6 on page 22.13 of your ASHRAE HOF lately? It shows fine grain soils
eg clay (there's a lot of that where I live) have a thermal conductivity
that approaches 0 as they become very dry, in the region with less than 5%
moisture. At 8%, Fig 6 shows their thermal conductivity as 5 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F,
and the clear exponential curve extrapolates along a line to 0 from there,
so one might well expect that such a soil at 1% moisture would have a thermal
conductivity of 5/8 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F, ie about R20 for a foot of soil. Not bad,
I'd say. How do we keep the soil dry? Put a vapor barrier all around it, with
a few air holes at the top, and something warm in the middle. I suppose they
do this with underground district heating pipes in Sweden and Siberia. 

>Paint cans aren't even worth discussing.

OK. Let's not discuss them. Except, I might add, I just filled up a 5 gallon 
plastic paint pail with 150 F water and stood on top of it. Even bounced a bit,
in the interest of science. Perhaps you will try this with a plastic 55 gallon
drum. I wouldn't expect temps much over 130 F without a selective surface.

>I would suggest the largest electric water heaters that you can find, or unused
>oil tanks, or strong fiberglass tanks, or reinforced block walls forming a
>tank that then is lined with edpm, or recycled milk tanks (stainless, of
>200-300gal size, from farm supply), even steel 55 gal drums.

I would suggest that that will work, but it's a waste of money. Perhaps a
plywood box with some 2x4's around it, lined with EPDM rubber, as widely used
for off-peak electric heat storage.

Thanks for making my morning, Dan! This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

May you remain ever ignorant. 

And silent.

Cheers,

Nick



From ee81597@goodnet.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:43 EDT 1996
Article: 961 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!news.goodnet.com!usenet
From: "Richard Bennett" <ee81597@goodnet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Residential Solar Options
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:50:13 -0700
Organization: GoodNet
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <01bb6501.1ce28300$8e7e2bce@Rick81597.goodnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: phx-ts4-13.goodnet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1085

I have heard of a company (in Popular Science) that is working on Solar
collectors that look like regular shingles on your house.  I am interested
in this because I live in Phoenix where the sun shines (brightly) for 330+
days a year (I am estimating).  My wife however does not like the
traditional solar panels that have been installed in the past.  Any
information anyone has on this would be greatly appreciated.  I also am
looking in to solar heating my pool in the winter.  

My last question is although I am very interested in solar power I know
little about it.  Is there any good books I can get at a library or even
buy on the subject that can shed some light (no pun intended... well a
little pun maybe.)  on the subject.
-- 
Richard Bennett
Applications Programmer
Phoenix Arizona
ee81597@goodnet.com


From Walter@telis.org Sun Jul  7 14:39:44 EDT 1996
Article: 962 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.campus.mci.net!news.telis.org!usenet
From: Walter@telis.org (Walter Trumble)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:38:09 GMT
Organization: TELIS
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <31cd4fb6.1191597@news.telis.org>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: s14-pm03.ucr.campus.mci.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:962 alt.politics.economics:73635 alt.conspiracy:200610

antirush@cris.com (antirush) wrote:

>Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
>blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"
>
>
>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!
>
>1. Easy
>2. No Cost
>3. No new government laws to create
>4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
>and power hungry people with no lives...
>WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!

It would be nice indeed if we could apply such simple solutions to
what seems like simple problems. Mass walking would impact the
environment with increased resource needs via shoes, warring apparel,
rain gear. etc. This IS a good idea if you live reasonably close and
have walkways. Many millions live 50 miles from work and many more
closer to the job site have no walkways or unsafe areas to traverse.

The only solution I have seen, in the world, comes from China. There
millions ride bicycles. This also has an impact, but far less than
autos. Millions here COULD ride bicycles to work, millions could not.
The KEY to any such movement is a willingness by the public to do so.
This is usually motivated by economic circumstances. I do NOT see this
happening in the U.S. any time soon <G>

Walt



From mdickson@common.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:44 EDT 1996
Article: 963 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.brandonu.ca!usenet
From: mdickson@common.net (Mike Dickson)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar closet
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:42:33 GMT
Organization: Brandon University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4r3fh6$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 51.dialup.common.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am looking at renovating my house and would like to add a solar
closet to the basement for heating and cooling in the summer. ( using
water flowing through a thermal mass). I would like to use a solar
concentrator and have it shine through a glass wall in the basement to
the solar concentrator. Is this a good idea or should I do the raising
of heat and the cooling outside and use radiators in the house? Any
thoughts. I am just in the beginning of the plannning stage.
Thankx in advance.
                    _  _____________________________  _
                   / )|        MIKE DICKSON         |( \
                  / / |     MDickson@Common.net     | \ \
                 ( (  |             \\|//           |  ) ) 
               (((\ \ |             O   O           l  / /)))
               (\\\\ \[--------oOOO--(_)--OOOo------]\/ ////)
                \       /                         \       /
                 \    _/                           \_    /
                 /   /                               \   \
                



From mdickson@common.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:45 EDT 1996
Article: 964 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.brandonu.ca!usenet
From: mdickson@common.net (Mike Dickson)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: magazines?
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:46:05 GMT
Organization: Brandon University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 51.dialup.common.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Could somebody give me info on Solar Magazines. I want to read up more
on this subject. Thanks
                    _  _____________________________  _
                   / )|        MIKE DICKSON         |( \
                  / / |     MDickson@Common.net     | \ \
                 ( (  |             \\|//           |  ) ) 
               (((\ \ |             O   O           l  / /)))
               (\\\\ \[--------oOOO--(_)--OOOo------]\/ ////)
                \       /                         \       /
                 \    _/                           \_    /
                 /   /                               \   \
                



From mdickson@common.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:45 EDT 1996
Article: 965 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!news.brandonu.ca!usenet
From: mdickson@common.net (Mike Dickson)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar closet
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:58:19 GMT
Organization: Brandon University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4r3gen$2gl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
References: <4r3fh6$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 51.dialup.common.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

mdickson@common.net (Mike Dickson) wrote:

>I am looking at renovating my house and would like to add a solar
>closet to the basement for heating and cooling in the summer. ( using
>water flowing through a thermal mass). I would like to use a solar
>concentrator and have it shine through a glass wall in the basement to
>the solar concentrator. Is this a good idea or should I do the raising
>of heat and the cooling outside and use radiators in the house? Any
>thoughts. I am just in the beginning of the plannning stage.
>Thankx in advance.
>               _  _____________________________  _
>                   / )|        MIKE DICKSON         |( \
>                  / / |     MDickson@Common.net  | \ \
>                 ( (  |             \\|//                             |  ) ) 
>               (((\ \ |             O   O                       l  / /)))
>               (\\\\ \[--------oOOO--(_)--OOOo------]\/ ////)
>                \       /                                           \       /
>                 \    _/                                           \_    /
>                 /   /                                                \   \
>                

Sorry about reposting this message, I am using a new news reader and
haven't found out all the controls, also above is what the sig is
supposed to look like. Thanks for the ideas. 
                    _  _____________________________  _
                   / )|        MIKE DICKSON         |( \
                  / / |     MDickson@Common.net     | \ \
                 ( (  |             \\|//           |  ) ) 
               (((\ \ |             O   O           l  / /)))
               (\\\\ \[--------oOOO--(_)--OOOo------]\/ ////)
                \       /                         \       /
                 \    _/                           \_    /
                 /   /                               \   \
                



From kging@efn.org Sun Jul  7 14:39:45 EDT 1996
Article: 966 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!engr.orst.edu!osshe.edu!news.uoregon.edu!mars.efn.org!garcia.efn.org!kging
From: Kathy Ging <kging@efn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Who is guilty for mobile & manufactured homes
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:27:11 -0700
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960630011120.5913E-100000@garcia.efn.org>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net> <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garcia.efn.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7322 alt.solar.thermal:966 sci.energy:51697 alt.energy.renewable:16004 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7812

I recall reading last year that the average stick built home in
OR cost ca. $120k, average manufactured home $45k. So some
blame rests with the consumer who is not willing to pay
for environmental desisgns, who is not concerned with life cycle costing, 
minimum toxic concerns et al, but is more concerned with satellite
dishes.

I do not think Realtors so much as home builders can be blamed
for the lack of real affordable and well designed sun tempered
houses. Blame the ughitechts while you cast pebbles, the ones who
are paid on the price of the built environment (as Realtors are paid on
the price of the house). I am a Realtor and also secretary of
the Eugene chapter of the NW Eco-Building Guild and am a strong
promoter of alternative housing - organic pls.  (I am somewhat
of an anomaly in the profession - being an ole solar bozo and
a sixties activist.)

When Mother Earth News did a survey over a decade ago of 300
major homebldrs in the US, not one was paying attention to
simple solar principles when designing their subdivisions.
May they all freeze in the coming ice age!

Building trades are paid a lot of money - $28 hr + - this
does not promote alternative house construction.  If  builders
and other trades were willing to work for less, more people
could have fun, low profile houses  designed with climate.

A retired UO architect recently suggested that bldg codes should
be passed that required sustainability energy and other wise from
houses!          Kathy Ging M.A., GRI
On Wed, 26 Jun 1996 chita@adnc.com wrote:

>     Speaking of mobile homes - -   doesn't it seem as if every
> realtor-dominated zoning board in America decided long ago to make
> sure nobody could actually build any REALLY cheap housing?  <sigh>
>  
>     
> 
> 
> 


From daniel@laser.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:46 EDT 1996
Article: 967 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.jsums.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!ffx49.laser.net!user
From: daniel@laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:30:19 -0400
Organization: Daystar Energy Service
Lines: 209
Message-ID: <daniel-3006961630190001@ffx49.laser.net>
References: <4qommq$3vv@goofy.BrandonU.CA> <4qotde$j25@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <daniel-2606962126220001@ffx43.laser.net> <4qtond$9dh@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx49.laser.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:967 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7814 alt.energy.renewable:16008

In article <4qtond$9dh@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

> I'll see your balderdash, and raise one balderdash :-) Does $30/ft^2 seem
> cheap to you, not counting roof mounting brackets and installation and
> insulated pipes and tanks and antifreeze and heat exchangers and pumps
> and the electrical power needed to run the pumps, ...

Cheap is something that you spend time and/or money on (no matter how
much) that falls apart before it's time. I'm not aiming for cheap.
Inexpensive? Certainly not. Valuable? Cost effective? A bargain? Your
decision.

Do you read what others post or do you just spout off? Where does $30/ft^2
come from? I've told you before (why do I think that you might listen this
time?), a complete dhw system (including electric back up) with all new
materials using 2 4x10s, installed correctly and completely wll cost about
$43.75 per sq ft. - $3500. Do you want these panels delivered to your
door? $1000 each. $25 per sq ft.

OK, my system is installed and operating at $43.75 per sq ft. Your "heat
equivalent of oil" nonsense means nothing until you have purchased and
installed the necessary equipment to process that oil into a useable form.
It might also be the heat equivalent of a truckload of elephant turds. If
those turds are delivered to your front door, they do you no good until
you bring them inside and find a way to use them. 2 gallons of oil
delivered to your front porch times 50 year minimum life cycle times 80 sq
ft = 8000 gallons of oil seeping thru the cracks of your porch (at today's
oil price, of course).

How many gallons of oil (maybe you've scooped it up now and put it in your
paint cans) does your sunspace replace per foot? Remember, getting it into
the sunspace doesn't count. It's getting it into a place where it can be
used that matters.

> >Nick, we keep going over the same material. 
> 
> True. You should give up. Or use numbers.
> 
I used numbers last time. In fact, I gave you a ten year warranty on all
pumps, controls, and sensors, inspected the system every year, changed the
glycol, and factored in ongoing operating costs. You didn't respond. I
still want to know where I can get my free 100% efficient oil burner,
tank, flue, piping, filters and control system warrantied for 10 years.

> >Air is a pitiful heat transfer medium.
> 
> True, compared to water.
> 
> >The only thing that is has is fluidity.
> 
> No, it also has heat capacity,

Not much.

> and it doesn't freeze,

Good point.

> which is nice, and
> it requires no plumbing or heat exchangers,

Maybe that explains why your storage doesnt get up to 90 degrees in the winter.

> and sometimes no pumps or fans,
> and leaks are not a serious business.

Or maybe that has something to do with it.

> It wasn't long ago that one of the
> alternative energy experts around here said "air has no mass." :-)

Compared to water, it doesn't. By the way, I know the guy, he's not so
presumptive as to call himself an expert. Just a mechanic with a working
knowledge of the realities involved.
> 
> >How umpteen many more times heat capacity has water got than air
> 
> About 4000 umpteen times, by volume, 1000 times less density and 1/4 the
> specific heat by weight. Is this a problem? Can planes fly? Should we
> abandon them all for boats? 

There's an intelligent argument. Should we abandon all toasters for blenders?

Lets see,  if I buy a $100 Grudfos 15-42F circulator at 120v and 85 watts
and my closed loop has the equivalent resistance of 5 ft of head then I
can pump 15 gallons per minute. divided by 7.5 gallons per cu ft = 2 cu ft
per minute. Times 4000 umpteen = 8000 cu ft per minute. So, for every ETT
(elephand turd truckload) of heat that I can move in one minute using 85
watts, you need to move 8000 cu ft of air. You like Grainger's stuff,
here's a floor fan that can move from 6810 cfm to 10300 cfm on page 2898
of the 1995 catalog. It only costs $562 and only uses 930 watts. It may
cost you something to have delivered. Shipping weight 148 lbs. My pump
costs about $5 to ship. Of course, this being a fan, it will only deliver
that cfm where it has deliverable free air, in other words, low static
pressure, in other words, a big open room. If you need to duct it there's
a 22" blower on page 2929 for $1035 for a 230/460v 3hp motor. Or, there's
a 36" whole house fan on page 2993 for $319 at 690 watts, it too needs low
s.p. to do the job.

> It may surprise you to learn that air may not need pipes, that one can move
> air through whole rooms and floors and walls and ceilings sometimes, with
> absolutely no loss of floorspace.

AT 8000 CFM ? Oh yeah, that's right, you're doing everthing with
conduction, convection, and radiation, which of course, don't apply to
water, glycol, OR copper.
> 
> >How much more efficient a heat exchange would that be than blowing warm air
> >around a room with 55 gal drums in it?
> 
> I give up. How much? You tell me. Where are your numbers? Why does this
matter?

Why does this matter? WHY DOES THIS MATTER? Nick, it's time to wake up.
This is the entirety of the argument. Your sunspace gets hot. Very little
of this heat gets into the livable area. Even less gets into storage. Any
house in the Northern Hemisphere with south facing windows gets a direct
heat gain when the sun shines. Any more heat gain than what you can use
right now is waste. Just like your sunspace. Insulate those windows at
night and forget about your plastic greenhouse. 
 
> >Add to that the longevity of copper pipe
> 
> Do we also add the longevity of wood or drywall or fiberglass insulation 
> or plastic 55 gallon drums? :-) 

Of course you do. Dont forget to factor in rot. If your system worked, the
wood, drywall, or fiberglass that is the surface between hot and cold will
condense  if given a high enough delta T. By the way, if it leaks air, it
can leak rainwater and bugs. Plastic drums wont rot, they'll just get soft
and weak with repeated thermal cycling. But, of course, that's only if the
system works.

> 
> Insulation... Another matter of numbers. Where are your numbers, Dan?

No, Nick, it's not a matter of numbers. It's a matter of common sense. It
doesn't take an engineer to realize that any number of ETTs going thru
finned copper pipes immersed in water (or air, or floor, or boot warmers)
will put more ETTs into where it's needed than the same number of ETTs
blown around some plactic drums, even at 8000 cfms. Nor does it take an
architect to look at a sheet of 80% shade cloth (called that because 20%
of its surface area is holes -you can see thru it) and decide if it will
be a better absorber sheet for IR light than copper treated with a
selective surface.

An automobile mechanic that knows his ass from a hole in the ground doesnt
need a book of formulas to recognize that his car wont get far on the gas
produced by the taco he had for lunch. I work with these things every day.
I get my hands in up to the elbows. I know what a heat exchanger is for
and how to use it.

When I give you numbers, you chose to ignore me. Pick a number, Nick.
Spend that number on your plastic sunspace. Give yourself a livable wage
for your time. I'll spend the same amount on a copper system. My system
will outperform yours from day one.
 
>   
> >and the cost and complexity become minor.
> 
> Perhaps, if you are rich as Croesus, or enjoy complexity.
> Did you say you were in the copper piping business, Dan? :-)

No, but I think I know where to go for shade cloth if I ever need it.
 
> >If, like most fluid based systems... the storage temps consistantly approach
> >150F plastic drums, $25 waterbed mattresses, and cheap swimming pools are a
> >disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> So are airplanes, especially lately. Engineers specialize in disasters
> waiting to happen. The better ones avert disasters for a very long time.

Better still, if you build nothing, you can avert disaster forever.

> >I would suggest the largest electric water heaters that you can find, or 
> >unused
> >oil tanks, or strong fiberglass tanks, or reinforced block walls forming a
> >tank that then is lined with edpm, or recycled milk tanks (stainless, of
> >200-300gal size, from farm supply), even steel 55 gal drums.
> 
> I would suggest that that will work, but it's a waste of money. Perhaps a
> plywood box with some 2x4's around it, lined with EPDM rubber, as widely used
> for off-peak electric heat storage.

Time is money. Unless your time is worth nothing, of course. My time, on
the other hand is worth many times what I've gleaned from you. You were
right from the start. It's time that I give up.

Do the job right or don't bother.

> 
> Thanks for making my morning, Dan! This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

It's more like talking to my dog. She wags her tail and looks at me, but
all she ever really comprehends is the sound of her own name. 

Blah,Blah,Blah,Blah,Nick,Blah,Blah,Blah...

> 
> May you remain ever ignorant. 
> 
> And silent.

Go soak your head.

Goodbye,
 
Dan


From pjm@nando.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:47 EDT 1996
Article: 968 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!nando
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Who is guilty for mobile SPAM DO NOT POST !!!!
Date: 1 Jul 1996 01:21:41 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4r7981$loc_001@nando.net>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net> <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com> <Pine.SUN.3.91.960630011120.5913E-100000@garcia.efn.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grail1018.nando.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7323 alt.solar.thermal:968 sci.energy:51713 alt.energy.renewable:16011 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7815

Damn, another spam thread  !!

cross posted to :

alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,
alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

STOP THIS THREAD NOW !!!!!

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :-)
_________________________________________________________

The SEHVAC FAQ is at: http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
My humble personal pages are at: http://www.webbuild.com/~pjm/


From nedkelly@eagle.ais.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:47 EDT 1996
Article: 969 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ais.net!eagle.ais.net!nedkelly
From: nedkelly@eagle.ais.net (Ned Kelly)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Date: 30 Jun 1996 21:19:29 GMT
Organization: The Melbourne Gaol
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4r6r11$k4i@news.ais.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <31cd4fb6.1191597@news.telis.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.ais.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:969 alt.politics.economics:73925 alt.conspiracy:201444


Walter Trumble (Walter@telis.org) wrote:

: The only solution I have seen, in the world, comes from China. There
: millions ride bicycles. This also has an impact, but far less than
: autos. Millions here COULD ride bicycles to work, millions could not.
: The KEY to any such movement is a willingness by the public to do so.
: This is usually motivated by economic circumstances. I do NOT see this
: happening in the U.S. any time soon <G>

There is a big problem with bicycles in America as a commuting device 
besides sheer distance. It's called winter. You need public transport to 
cut the impact of cars. The problem of public transport is how suburbs 
are designed to make bus routes impossible to set up. (curly dead end 
streets) Becuse of these factors, the Car is virtually a necessity. To 
see for yourself, just try living without one in America. It's like being 
disabled or something.

--
Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!!  
"That isn't a knife.... This is a KNIFE!" - Paul Hogan

The Navy: It's Not Just A Job..... It's $cientology Lite!


From wstewart@patriot.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:47 EDT 1996
Article: 970 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: magazines?
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 06:52:41 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <31D7ADF9.4C87@patriot.net>
References: <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-8.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)

Mike Dickson wrote:
> 
> Could somebody give me info on Solar Magazines. I want to read up more
> on this subject. Thanks

"Solar Today" is an industry standard, visit 
http://www.engr.wisc.edu/centers/scl/ases/ases2.html

Cheers,

Will Stewart


From jsalva@bitmailer Sun Jul  7 14:39:48 EDT 1996
Article: 971 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!inXS.uu.net!minerva.ibernet.es!artemis.ibernet.es!usenet
From: jsalva@bitmailer (JSalva)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: NEW SOLAR PAGE !!! http://208.5.13.230/sre/index.htm
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:15:24 GMT
Organization: Servicio IBERNET (Telefonica Transmision de Datos)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4r8fr1$kl8@artemis.ibernet.es>
NNTP-Posting-Host: im56.arrakis.es
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

SRE is a Company from the suth os Spain, leader on its area on the
installation of Solar Cells and Wind Mills to produce electricity.
Please, check our page and submit any comment to jsalva@arrakis.es.
Remember the page stills under construction, so be patient...

Thanks.



From jsalva@bitmailer Sun Jul  7 14:39:48 EDT 1996
Article: 972 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!inXS.uu.net!minerva.ibernet.es!artemis.ibernet.es!usenet
From: jsalva@bitmailer (JSalva)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: NEW SOLAR PAGE !!! http://208.5.13.230/sre/index.htm
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:15:15 GMT
Organization: Servicio IBERNET (Telefonica Transmision de Datos)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4r8fqo$kl8@artemis.ibernet.es>
NNTP-Posting-Host: im56.arrakis.es
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

SRE is a Company from the suth os Spain, leader on its area on the
installation of Solar Cells and Wind Mills to produce electricity.
Please, check our page and submit any comment to jsalva@arrakis.es.
Remember the page stills under construction, so be patient...

Thanks.



From jsalva@bitmailer Sun Jul  7 14:39:48 EDT 1996
Article: 973 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!inXS.uu.net!minerva.ibernet.es!artemis.ibernet.es!usenet
From: jsalva@bitmailer (JSalva)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: NEW SOLAR PAGE !!! http://208.5.13.230/sre/index.htm
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:15:25 GMT
Organization: Servicio IBERNET (Telefonica Transmision de Datos)
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4r8fr2$kl8@artemis.ibernet.es>
NNTP-Posting-Host: im56.arrakis.es
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

SRE is a Company from the suth os Spain, leader on its area on the
installation of Solar Cells and Wind Mills to produce electricity.
Please, check our page and submit any comment to jsalva@arrakis.es.
Remember the page stills under construction, so be patient...

Thanks.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jul  7 14:39:49 EDT 1996
Article: 974 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass
Date: 2 Jul 1996 08:07:44 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 236
Message-ID: <4rb3eg$fgi@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4qommq$3vv@goofy.BrandonU.CA> <daniel-2606962126220001@ffx43.laser.net> <4qtond$9dh@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <daniel-3006961630190001@ffx49.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:974 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7832 alt.energy.renewable:16042

<daniel@laser.net> wrote:
>(Nick Pine) wrote:
 
>...a complete dhw system (including electric back up)... wll cost about
>$43.75 per sq ft. - $3500..

So, that's 80 ft^2... Or 7.4 m^2. Where I live near Philadelphia, the average
yearly sun that falls on a surface tilted at the latitude is 4.6 kWh/m^2/day,
ie 365 x 4.6 x 12,483 kWh fall on that collector. The average yearly temp
is 54 F. Say we collecting heat at 120 F, average? Is the panel losing about
8hr(120-54)80/R2 = 21K Btu/day, or 365 x 21K/3410 = 2250 kWh/year for an
annual average collection efficiency of 82%? Is the heat store infinite? If
not, how often does we run out of solar hot water? What's the annual solar
fraction for a system like this?

>OK, my system is installed and operating at $43.75 per sq ft. Your "heat
>equivalent of oil" nonsense means nothing until you have purchased and
>installed the necessary equipment to process that oil into a useable form.

I don't know what an oil burning water heater costs, and yes, you'd need a
tank and a chimney. Perhaps I should have said electricity, at 0.08 cents/kWh,
Or a third of that, using a heat pump that cools the basement air a bit? Or
natural gas? Let's say we just use electric resistance heat. Then this $3500
investment, less $300 for the electric water heater, assuming the solar heat
store is infinite, saves 10,233 kWh/year, ie about $800/year. Good :-) Like a
25% tax-free bond. Worth doing, but are there better alternatives?

>How many gallons of oil... does your sunspace replace per foot?

1-2 gallons of oil per year per square foot of glazing. But the sunspace
doesn't heat water, just the house. The solar closet would heat water. 

>Remember, getting it into the sunspace doesn't count. It's getting it into
>a place where it can be used that matters.

Sure. Getting warm air into the house with a motorized damper or window fan,
and getting sun into the solar closet through the inner glazing, with another
motorized damper or low power fan, then getting the heat into an electric
water heater on the floor above using, say 20' of fin-tube pipe near the solar
closet ceiling, in a thermosyphon loop, a la Big Fin sunspace collectors.

Now there's another more economical alternative than all these rooftop solar
panels and pipes and tanks and pumps and so on, no? Something like Big Fins in
a sunspace. Might even glue some PV solar shingles on them, and add 2:1
reflectors, a la Richard Komp. Electricity, hot water and heat for the house,
as well as more daytime floorspace...
 
>> >Air is a pitiful heat transfer medium.
 
A cfm of water with a temperature difference of 1 F moves about 3720 Btu/hr.
A cfm of air with a temperature difference of 1 F moves about 1 Btu/hr. So? 
 
>> and it doesn't freeze,
 
>Good point.
 
Norman Saunders, PE, often makes this point.

>> It wasn't long ago that one of the
>> alternative energy experts around here said "air has no mass." :-)
 
>Compared to water, it doesn't.

But it's a matter of degree, no?

>> >How umpteen many more times heat capacity has water got than air
 
>> About 4000 umpteen times, by volume, 1000 times less density and 1/4 the
>> specific heat by weight. Is this a problem? Can planes fly? Should we
>> abandon them all for boats? 

>There's an intelligent argument. Should we abandon all toasters for blenders?

I don't follow your logic here, Dan. Can you explain further?

>Lets see,  if I buy a $100 Grudfos 15-42F circulator at 120v and 85 watts
>and my closed loop has the equivalent resistance of 5 ft of head then I
>can pump 15 gallons per minute. divided by 7.5 gallons per cu ft = 2 cu ft
>per minute. Times 4000 umpteen = 8000 cu ft per minute. So, for every ETT
>(elephand turd truckload) of heat that I can move in one minute using 85
>watts, you need to move 8000 cu ft of air.

Yup. You can move lots of heat. But what's your point?

>You like Grainger's stuff, here's a floor fan that can move from 6810 cfm
>to 10300 cfm on page 2898 of the 1995 catalog. It only costs $562 and only
>uses 930 watts. It may cost you something to have delivered. Shipping weight
>148 lbs.

I wouldn't buy one of those. But I might buy a $12 Holmes 20" window fan, or
a $60 4C588 36 Watt 560 cfm 149 F max cooling fan, or a $168 4C721 130 Watt
5' diameter 43,700 cfm ceiling fan, with a $15 speed controller. It weighs
34 pounds. Or I might try to make the whole shebang work by natural convection,
as Steve Baer has been successfully doing for 30 years. I'd probably cheat
a bit and use a $50 2 Watt damper motor and thermostat.

>My pump costs about $5 to ship. Of course, this being a fan, it will only
>deliver that cfm where it has deliverable free air, in other words, low static
>pressure, in other words, a big open room. If you need to duct it there's
>a 22" blower on page 2929 for $1035 for a 230/460v 3hp motor. Or, there's
>a 36" whole house fan on page 2993 for $319 at 690 watts, it too needs low
>s.p. to do the job.

Hey Dan, you might like Grainger's 7F916 25 _Horsepower_ 3 phase blower! :-)
Page 2930, 23,000 cfm at 2" of static pressure, $2139, 325 pounds. Our solar
closet has 0.05" static pressure at 500 cfm. We haven't tried to streamline it.

>> It may surprise you to learn that air may not need pipes, that one can move
>> air through whole rooms and floors and walls and ceilings sometimes, with
>> absolutely no loss of floorspace.
 
>AT 8000 CFM ?

Now where did the 8000 cfm come from? Oh yes, you were moving 2 cfm of water.
I wonder why? Oh, you don't have any natural way to make the hot water go
downhill... I wonder if you do Copper Crickets.

>Why does this matter? WHY DOES THIS MATTER? Nick, it's time to wake up.
>This is the entirety of the argument. Your sunspace gets hot. Very little
>of this heat gets into the livable area. Even less gets into storage.

We've seen the the sunspace heat the little room in our outdoor structure
comfortably and controllably using only natural convection, with a motorized
damper between them, while our measurements indicated the solar closet was
capturing 55% of the incoming sun. 

>Any house in the Northern Hemisphere with south facing windows gets a direct
>heat gain when the sun shines. Any more heat gain than what you can use
>right now is waste.

That's the usual arrangement... Were we talking about water heating?

>Just like your sunspace. Insulate those windows at
>night and forget about your plastic greenhouse. 

Ah yes, the ritual curtains. That will work, but it's a bit expensive,
and not automatic, and there's no heat stored at a higher temp than the
house, for future cloudy days, and no hot water. We were talking about
water heating here? 

>> >Add to that the longevity of copper pipe
 
>> Do we also add the longevity of wood or drywall or fiberglass insulation 
>> or plastic 55 gallon drums? :-) 

>Of course you do. Dont forget to factor in rot. If your system worked, the
>wood, drywall, or fiberglass that is the surface between hot and cold will
>condense if given a high enough delta T.

Can you be more specific, Dan?

>By the way, if it leaks air, it can leak rainwater and bugs.

Who says "it" leaks air? And what is the "it"? Bugs are our friends.

>Plastic drums wont rot, they'll just get soft and weak with repeated thermal
>cycling.

Have you ever seen that? These drums should mostly just stay hot, in this 
trickle-charged heat battery, which is a collector with an instantaneous
solar collection efficiency of zero, unlike a rooftop collector.

>> Insulation... Where are your numbers, Dan?
 
>No, Nick, it's not a matter of numbers. It's a matter of common sense. It
>doesn't take an engineer to realize that any number of ETTs going thru
>finned copper pipes immersed in water (or air, or floor, or boot warmers)
>will put more ETTs into where it's needed than the same number of ETTs
>blown around some plactic drums, even at 8000 cfms.

I don't quite follow your logic here, Dan. You can move about 75K Btu/hour
with 2 cfm of water. That is impressive, but an R20 4'x 8'x 10' solar closet
only needs about 22K Btu/day to stay warm, eg 360 cfm of air for 6 hours a
day with a 10 F temp difference. If it makes hot water, it may need a fan to
collect sun, or larger motorized dampers, or a motorized insulating and
reflecting cover, hinged at ground level, that folds down from the glazing
to a horizontal position in the sunspace to let sun and reflected sun shine
directly onto the thermal mass during the day. These things work best when
lightly loaded.

>Nor does it take an architect to look at a sheet of 80% shade cloth (called
>that because 20% of its surface area is holes -you can see thru it) and
>decide if it will be a better absorber sheet for IR light than copper treated
>with a selective surface.

Engineers are typically more interested in those things than architects, eg
Norman Saunders, PE, who has been using transpired collectors like this since
about 1944 in his 100% solar New England houses. He likes them because they
are 50 times less expensive than selective surfaces, and they have little
thermal mass to wake up in the morning, and they store and waste little heat
at dusk. There is more surface area to absorb the sun than with a simple dark
surface, so the average surface temperature is less, since heat loss to air
is proportional to area, and the lower temperature of the absorber surface
REradiates less IR heat back out at the glazing. Glass and polycarbonate
plastic block UV and IR in both directions. Norman also says that transpired
absorbers are more efficient because some of the sun shines through the holes
and hits the dark surface to the north, which heats up that surface, which
reradiates heat to the south, and the transpired absorber intercepts that
reradiation trying to heat up the glazing. He also likes them because we can
end up with relatively cool air next to the relatively cold glazing, with
sun-warmed air next to the house wall, away from the cold glazing. 

>An automobile mechanic... doesnt need a book of formulas to recognize that
>his car wont get far on the gas produced by the taco he had for lunch.

Perhaps you are saying this is a matter of proportion.

>I know what a heat exchanger is for and how to use it.

Heat exchangers make pretty good scrap metal...

>>>If, like most fluid based systems... the storage temps consistantly approach
>>>150F plastic drums, $25 waterbed mattresses, and cheap swimming pools are a
>>>disaster waiting to happen.

Recall we've tested the plastic paint pails now. Care to try the drums? 
 
>> So are airplanes, especially lately. Engineers specialize in disasters
>> waiting to happen. The better ones avert disasters for a very long time.
 
>Better still, if you build nothing, you can avert disaster forever.

Yes, but that won't make the world a better place. Or maybe it will...
Bertrand Russell used to say "All that is necessary for goodness to
triumph in the world is for enough good men to do nothing."

>You were right from the start.

Ahh, I like to hear that :-)

>It's time that I give up.

Agreed.

Nick



From wiml@netcom.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:49 EDT 1996
Article: 975 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!wiml
From: wiml@netcom.com (Wim Lewis)
Subject: Re: WALK TO WORK YOU HYPOCRITES!
Message-ID: <wimlDtwtKx.M5@netcom.com>
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,
Organization: The Seattle Group
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <4q9bbj$47q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:41:21 GMT
Lines: 33
Sender: wiml@netcom4.netcom.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:975 alt.politics.economics:74078 alt.conspiracy:201851

In article <4q9bbj$47q@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Jim Graham <graham@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu> wrote:
:antirush (antirush@cris.com) wrote:
:> Everybody keeps saying, "save the planet ahhh save fuel,
:> blachhchaskdkasfdklhjdkfjhasjlhasdgjkl;asjkdfgjaiksdf"
:> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!!!
:> 1. Easy
:> 2. No Cost
:> 3. No new government laws to create
:> 4. Would END all ENVIRO-WACKO Groups fund raising for personal power
:> and power hungry people with no lives...
:> WALK TO WORK!!!!!!!
:
:Uh-uh...
:
:An increase in the number of people who walk to work would mean an increase
:in the amount of leather and rubber/chemical products necessary for the 
:production of additional shoes due to additional wear.  

Amend that. Walk to work barefoot!

 1. Easy
 2. Develops useful calluses
 3. Immune system is strengthened by exposure to exciting new bacteria
 4. Parasites are part of the ecosystem too!

(Followups to alt.lifestyle.barefoot ...)


-- 
        William "Wim" Lewis * wiml@netcom.com * Seattle, WA, USA
 As you lay down life's highways, remember to stop and plant the roses.
    PGP 0x27F772C1: 0C 0D 10 D5 FC 73 D1 35  26 46 42 9E DC 6E 0A 88


From duckchow@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:50 EDT 1996
Article: 976 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: duckchow@ix.netcom.com (M J Epko)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Who is guilty for mobile SPAM DO NOT POST !!!!
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 13:57:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4rba25$eio@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <jmucci-1406961118430001@pm113-02.dialip.mich.net> <8C2B3A9.17240004A0.uuout@westonia.com> <4qjfnr$phe@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <4qm907$71n@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31cfc43f.615819@news.nr.infi.net> <4qrn5o$h3a@taurus.adnc.com> <Pine.SUN.3.91.960630011120.5913E-100000@garcia.efn.org> <4r7981$loc_001@nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: min-mn1-27.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jul 02  9:00:37 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7344 alt.solar.thermal:976 sci.energy:51785 alt.energy.renewable:16059 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7836

pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) wrote:
>Damn, another spam thread  !!
>cross posted to :
>alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,
>alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
>STOP THIS THREAD NOW !!!!!

	I'm slightly (electronically) acquainted with Kathy Ging, the alleged
spammer, and am reasonably certain that she's not engaged in
self-promotion here. It didn't read like she was trying to sell
anything either. If you'll look at the (only FOUR, not forty)
cross-posted newsgroups, you'll note that they're all pertinent to her
post; I'm also reasonably certain that she's subscribed to all of them
& is looking for feedback & additional info. (Isn't that what this
newsgroup stuff is all about? An info vehicle?)
	Also, if you'd read the whole thing (maybe you did), you'd've noticed
that she was responding to a previous post.

	I'm with you all the way on your opinion of spammers, but I think in
this case the label's been mis-applied.

M J




From eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov Sun Jul  7 14:39:50 EDT 1996
Article: 977 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!engineer.mrg.uswest.com!news.advtech.uswest.com!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!nrel!usenet
From: Kevin Eber <eberk@tcplink.nrel.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Renewable energy and energy efficiency at the Olympics--new web site
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:24:35 -0700
Organization: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31D95B53.6CA3@tcplink.nrel.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: keber.nrel.gov
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:16062 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1420 alt.solar.thermal:977 sci.energy:51792

The Department of Energy has sponsored a variety of projects to demonstrate renewable 
energy and energy efficiency technologies at the Olympics and in the general Atlanta 
area.  The highlight is a combination of photovoltaic panels and solar pool heating and 
cooling panels on the roof of the Georgia Tech Aquatic Center, site of the main swimming 
competitions.  The photovoltaic system is the largest roof-mounted system in the world.

The department is also funding construction of a building--the Southface Energy and 
Environmental Resource Center--that will serve as a permanent demonstratation and 
training facility for energy efficiency and renewable energy.  In addition to energy 
efficient construction that uses a geothermal heat pump for cooling, the center will 
incorporate photovoltaic shingles on its roof.

Other technologies at the Games will include a solar dish/Sterling demonstration and 
alternative fuel vehicles.

For more information, visit the web site at: http://www.eren.doe.gov/teamenergy/

New photos are continually coming in as construction proceeds, so check back frequently 
for updates.  Seventeen days until the Olympics!!!


From wstewart@patriot.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:50 EDT 1996
Article: 978 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news1.inlink.com!news.flinet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: William R Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: magazines?
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:37:06 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <31D9C0B1.78E6@patriot.net>
References: <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA> <31D7ADF9.4C87@patriot.net>
Reply-To: wstewart@patriot.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-35.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I)

William R Stewart wrote:
> 
> Mike Dickson wrote:
> >
> > Could somebody give me info on Solar Magazines. I want to read up more
> > on this subject. Thanks
> 
> "Solar Today" is an industry standard, visit

        http://www.csn.net/solar/

The last URL I posted was no longer active.
 
> Cheers,
> 
> Will Stewart


From stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu Sun Jul  7 14:39:51 EDT 1996
Article: 979 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!stampke
From: stampke@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Stuart R. Stampke)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: magazines?
Date: 3 Jul 1996 01:27:08 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <4rci9c$gcs@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
References: <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Mike Dickson (mdickson@common.net) wrote:
: Could somebody give me info on Solar Magazines. I want to read up more
: on this subject. Thanks

< snipping a nice signature block >

Mike,
   Here are three:

   HOME POWER, 
        P.O. Box 520 Ashland, OR 97520
           Subscriptions and back orders:  800-707-3179
           email:  hp@homepower.org
           Webpage: http://www.homepower.com/hp

        Bimonthly.
        Written by and for users, especially independent home power users.
        HOMEPOWER is an Excellent magazine, a must, even for wanna-be's 
        like me.  Back issues on CD-ROM, too.


   SOLAR TODAY,  
         published by the American Solar Energy Society (ASES).
         American Solar Energy Society
         2400 Central Ave, Suite G-1
         Boulder CO  80301
            tel: 303-443-3130
            email: ases@ases.org
            webpage: http://www.ases.org/solar   
        
        Bimonthly.
        Good magazine, well done, though not as gritty as Homepower.
        $29/year for non members, $15/year with ASES membership.
        (ASES membership also brings newsletters from several of its
        divisions if you sign up for them, too.)
        ASES is american chapter of ISES (International Solar Energy
        Society) which also publishes the journal "Solar Energy"
        Methinks "Solar Energy" subscription requires ISES membership.
       
   SOLAR INDUSTRY JOURNAL, 
        published by the 
         Solar Energy Industries Association.  
         122 C Street, NW
         Fourth Floor,
         Washington, DC  20001-2109
           Tel: 202-383-2600
           Webpage: ????
 
         A standard industry magazine in a fascinating business.
         Quarterly.  First quarter issue includes the SEIA membership
         directory.  Subscriptions $25/year for non members. 


Both HOME POWER and SOLAR TODAY can be found in better bookstores,
e.g. Barnes & Noble, and Taylor's,  although availablility may be
spottty.             
   
      
The American Wind Energy Association also publishes newsletters,
Look for postings to this newsgroup by  Tom Gray, for contact
infor there.  His postings are good and of interest beyond wind, too.

Enjoy!

--  Stuart
         
  _______________________________________________________________
    Stuart Stampke             email:   stuart.stampke@csun.edu  
    Northridge, CA              or   stampke@alumni.caltech.edu      

   Good Artists Copy,
   Great Artists Steal.  --  Picasso   


  (Above magazine address info was copied from title pages of
   each magazine.  Comments about them are mine.  I'd include
    a disclamer, but mine runs about 80 lines now.)


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Jul  7 14:39:51 EDT 1996
Article: 980 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: A measure of solar house heating ease
Date: 3 Jul 1996 13:28:24 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4reajo$slm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:980 sci.energy:51824 alt.energy.renewable:16081 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7853

How hard is it to make a 100% solar heated house in various parts of the US? 

Norman Saunders, PE, uses a simple measure:

       average sun that falls on a south wall
   E = --------------------------------------.
         70 F - average outdoor temperature

The higher the number, the easier the climate. Here are some values
for a few cities using some NREL average weather data:

                   Jan    S wall              Dec    S wall
                   temp   sun       E         temp   sun      E       

Abilene, TX        42.8   1400      51        45.5   1400     
Albuquerque, NM    34.2   1640      46        35.3   1610
Atlanta, GA        41.0   1120      37        44.5   1110
Austin, TX         48.8   1200      57        56.6   1200
Binghamton, NY     21.1   790       16        26.5   610      14
Bismark, ND         9.2   1070      18        14.0   1110
Boulder, CO        29.7   1370                31.0   1180     30
Buffalo, NY        23.6   680                 29.1   550      13
Carabou, ME         8.9   990       16        14.8   780
Chicago, IL        21.0   910       19        26.6   740      17
Concord, NH        18.6   1060      21        24.3   880      19
Detroit, MI        22.9   770       16        28.3   610      15
Flagstaff, AZ      28.7   1580      38        29.6   1560
Fresno, CA         45.7   880                 45.4   830      34
New York City, NY  31.5   980       25        36.6   860      26
Phila, PA          30.4   1000      25        35.8   900      26
Raleigh, NC        38.9   1130      36        42.6   1100
Richmond, VA       35.7   1090      32        40.1   1030
San Francisco      48.7   1050      49        49.4   1050
Seattle, WA        40.1   480                 40.5   420      14

It looks like Steve Baer has it easy in Albuquerque, as do people in Texas :-)
But Norman has designed 100% solar houses even in places like Binghamton...

Nick



From flax@csn.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:52 EDT 1996
Article: 981 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: Arthur Flax <flax@csn.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: photovoltaic cells products
Date: 3 Jul 1996 23:21:12 GMT
Organization: FlaxSun Power Co.
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4rev98$59d@news-2.csn.net>
References: <4q59ks$9pj@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.233.59
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)

Information on photovoltalic cells and products is available at:
http://www.tachitup.com/tachitup/flaxsun.htm

Arthur M. Flax, President
FlaxSun Power Co.
flax@csn.net



From A.Cooke@roe.ac.uk Sun Jul  7 14:39:52 EDT 1996
Article: 983 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!reaxp01.roe.ac.uk!ajc
From: ajc@reaxp01.roe.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke)
Newsgroups: alt.soc.ethics,alt.society,alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.civil-liberties,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.futures,alt.society.generation-x,alt.society.kindness,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.neutopia,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.society.underwear,alt.soft-sys.corel.draw,alt.soft-sys.corel.misc,alt.soft-sys.tooltalk,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.sources,alt.sources.amiga
Subject: Re: MIND POWER
Date: 5 Jul 1996 12:37:24 GMT
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Royal Observatory Edinburgh
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <4rj2a4$a3c@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
References: <4ri4ia$p1u@newsource.ihug.co.nz>
Reply-To: A.Cooke@roe.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: reaxp01.roe.ac.uk
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.anarchy:42146 alt.society.civil-liberties:11968 alt.society.civil-liberty:57944 alt.society.conservatism:58681 alt.society.generation-x:143393 alt.society.kindness:789 alt.society.labor-unions:2542 alt.society.mental-health:3618 alt.society.neutopia:27229 alt.society.resistance:5713 alt.society.revolution:20064 alt.society.sovereign:15237 alt.society.underwear:6526 alt.soft-sys.corel.draw:9424 alt.soft-sys.corel.misc:680 alt.soft-sys.tooltalk:835 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1426 alt.solar.thermal:983 alt.sources:11425 alt.sources.amiga:3369

In article <4ri4ia$p1u@newsource.ihug.co.nz>,
altered states <altered@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[...]

	for info on setting up kill files to automatically delete
	messages cross-posted to many groups, check out
	http://world.std.com/~mmcirvin/crosspost.html

	andrew

-- 
           work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357
    institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh
                     http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww


From mdelceg@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun Jul  7 14:39:52 EDT 1996
Article: 984 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!manawatu.planet.co.nz!manawatu.gen.nz!chch.planet.co.nz!news.plain.co.nz!usenet
From: Michael Delceg <mdelceg@nelson.planet.org.nz>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A measure of solar house heating ease
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 15:11:10 +1300
Organization: Plain Communications Ltd.	
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <31DDCB3E.445F@nelson.planet.org.nz>
References: <4reajo$slm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mdelceg.nelson.planet.org.nz
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:984 sci.energy:51916 alt.energy.renewable:16132 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7892

How is average sun determined? Is it average daylight
hours for that latitude?
Mike


From flax@csn.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:53 EDT 1996
Article: 985 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: Arthur Flax <flax@csn.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Some Folks Like Fast Cars
Date: 6 Jul 1996 01:27:59 GMT
Organization: FlaxSun Power Co.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4rkfev$ovu@news-2.csn.net>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <31cd4fb6.1191597@news.telis.org> <4r6r11$k4i@news.ais.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.233.14
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:985 alt.politics.economics:74710 alt.conspiracy:202807

I like cars, V-8 motors and driving fast on roadways suited for such 
activity.

I also like central heating and air conditioning. 


That doesn't make me wasteful or socially irresponsible - my Vette gets 30 
mpg on the highway and with its electronically controlled, catalytic 
converter equipped engine, probably produces less polution than a horse 
(now there is an argument for people with too much time on their hands!)

The Ludites who would have us walk or ride bikes to work would probably be 
surprised to know that I am in the solar power business. However, I 
believe solar power is only viable where the marketplace accepts it - i.e. 
when it is cheaper to install solar power than run power lines.

Automobiles have become cleaner, more fuel efficient and more FUN because 
the marketplace, the realities of American life and environmental concerns 
(which are related to the marketplace, I might point out) demanded it. 

Bicycles are fun too, and I enjoy riding mine (though not as much as 
driving my Vette) but not very practical in American or any society. China 
is no role model for any country on this earth and thank goodness, I don't 
live there.

If you want to walk, or ride a bike, great. You have that freedom in the 
U.S. and in most countries (except perhaps China).

I'll drive, thank you very much

Arthur Flax






From flax@csn.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:53 EDT 1996
Article: 986 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news-2.csn.net!usenet
From: Arthur Flax <flax@csn.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Saving Energy and Mon
Date: 6 Jul 1996 01:02:22 GMT
Organization: FlaxSun Power Co.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4rkduu$npp@news-2.csn.net>
References: <00002EA70000027E@nashville.com> <31ccfe8f.10583608@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.233.8
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:986 alt.politics.economics:74717

The last thing I want is the government telling me I can't drive my V-8 
powered (and yet fairly fuel efficient) Corvette, with the air 
conditioning on full, to work at my solar power company every morning! 
Sounds to me like the fellow who wants to take my car away probably thinks 
the old Soviet Union was a great place too!

Save the Whales (But kill the Seals).

Or Shave the Whales and keep the Seals.



From solar3d@teleport.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:51 EDT 1996
Article: 987 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!nntp.teleport.com!usenet
From: solar3d@teleport.com (3-D Software)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Power for Portables???
Date: 6 Jul 1996 03:25:13 GMT
Organization: 3-D Software
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <4rkmap$8cd@nadine.teleport.com>
References: <31cc5424.63391723@news.sgi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.100.165.70
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3

In article <31cc5424.63391723@news.sgi.net>, vicnot@igc.net (root) wrote:
>I am looking for information and experiences anyone has had with
>portable solar panmade and sold to power portable computers.

Check out this web page:
http://www.indra.com/jade-mtn/laptopchg.html

Carlos Portela
3-D Software
P.O. Box 220, Mapleton OR  97453  USA
3dsoft@presys.com
http://www.teleport.com/~solar3d


From solar3d@teleport.com Sun Jul  7 14:39:51 EDT 1996
Article: 988 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet
From: solar3d@teleport.com (3-D Software)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: magazines?
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:40:58 GMT
Organization: 3-D Software
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <4rjnjq$p2g@nadine.teleport.com>
References: <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.100.165.75
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3

In article <4r3fnp$fl@goofy.BrandonU.CA>,
   mdickson@common.net (Mike Dickson) wrote:
>Could somebody give me info on Solar Magazines. I want to read up more
>on this subject. Thanks

Hello Mike,

Your best bet is to read books, and
articles on the web.  First, here
is info on magazines:

SOLAR TODAY magazine
http://www.ases.org/solar
Articles by and for governmental
and university researchers and
large architectural firms.

HOME POWER magazine
http://www.homepower.com/
Hands-on articles about solar
and renewable electricity.
Also some articles on architecture,
including cooling a solar greenhouse
in a previous issue, and an
owner-built sun room in current
issue.  Home Power has announced
it wants to carry more articles
on solar architecture -- owner-builders
should submit articles!

ENERGY DESIGN UPDATE newsletter
http://world.std.com/~cic/edu.htm
Detailed info for architects and
builders.  More expensive than mags.
listed above, but discounts are
available, and provides valuable
info, making it cost effective
if you make money building homes.

In addition to reading magazines,
check out articles at our web page:
http://www.teleport.com/~solar3d/solar
Includes articles on passive solar
design.

Also check out Ed Mazria's "Passive
Solar Energy" -- the classic text.
Available at used bookstores.

Happy building,

Carlos Portela
3-D Software
P.O. Box 220, Mapleton OR  97453  USA
3dsoft@presys.com
http://www.teleport.com/~solar3d


From kging@efn.org Sun Jul  7 14:39:51 EDT 1996
Article: 989 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!mars.efn.org!garcia.efn.org!kging
From: Kathy Ging <kging@efn.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A measure of solar/Energy at Crossroads
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 01:54:59 -0700
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960706010752.9616D-100000@garcia.efn.org>
References: <4reajo$slm@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <31DDCB3E.445F@nelson.planet.org.nz>
NNTP-Posting-Host: garcia.efn.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <31DDCB3E.445F@nelson.planet.org.nz> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:989 sci.energy:51929 alt.energy.renewable:16144 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:7896

I am not an expert on this but having friends in the solar
trades, I recall that solar heating is partly a function of       
the degree days   for a locale. E.g., Eugene,
OR, may seem like it would not be a great place for solar
heating, but because of our winter cloud cover, creating a
relatively benign climate, we do not have 
so many sub-freezing days. That makes it easier for solar
water heaters to boost the temperature of the water and
for solar to provide a measure of space heating too.
The flat plate rather than the tracking collectors have, I think, 
performed better here because of our diffused radiation.

An interesting phenomenon is the fact that one solar monitoring
that was done in OR some time ago found that one of the best
performing DHW systems in the state was located in one of
the poorest solar radiation sites in the state - nr. the
coast. The engineer who monitored the system attributed
the superior performance to the attention to installation detail
of the installer - a man with plumbing background who was installing
a DHW on his own house!

OR DOE has continually reported that solar energy can 
provide 50% of Oregon*s domestic water and space heating
needs. The reason that 20 year plans a decade ago by the
OR Dept of Energy historically project only 5% solar DHW
and 2% space heating within 20  years is a function of the lack of 
leadership in political and govt squares, not of a lack
of solar insolation. The sun is available, the technology
is available, the motivation to put these together is not.

Energy at the Crossroads report by the GAO sometime ago said
that the major obstacle to the renewable energy transition
in the PNW was the regional utilities that might not want
this technology transfer to occur. If 80% instead of 20%
of the nation*s utilities were owned by publicly elected
boards like Rural Electric Cooperatives, PUDs and munis
(instead of by Investor Owned Utilites -IOUs - guaranteed
profit monopolies dominated by E Coast investors), we
might see some changes in the energy mix.  

When Hunter and Amory Lovins can energize their +/-5,000 sf
house/office for $10 a month and apologize for having 10
yr old technology that wastes energy, the rest of us can
hope to learn a few of their techniques to apply after
our natural gas binge is over. 

By then perhaps we will be teaching degree days in school
instead of it appearing as an arcane piece of info on NGs!

Kathy Ging, Secretary, NW Eco-Building Guild, Eugene chapter

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Michael Delceg wrote:

> How is average sun determined? Is it average daylight
> hours for that latitude?
> Mike
> 
> 
-


From bluesky@hk.super.net Sun Jul  7 14:39:52 EDT 1996
Article: 990 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.cuhk.edu.hk!newsfeeder.ust.hk!nntp.hk.super.net!tst.hk.super.net!usenet
From: bluesky@hk.super.net (Stephen Greenwood)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: CPC Info Required
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:47:11 GMT
Organization: Hong Kong SuperNET
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4rlqtq$7bg@tst.hk.super.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-48.hk.super.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am researching Compound Parabolic Collectors (CPC), and after
reading an article in the ISES Journal "The Effect Of Variation Of
Angle Of Inclination On The Performance Of Low-Concentration-Ratio
Compound Parabolic Concentrating Solar Collectors" by Kothdiwala,
Norton, Eames. 

I was wondering if there is any such product as a CPC on the market. 

Info required - Company name, contact name, phone/fax/email/url
address

Any other source of info on CPC's, Mutli-Stage Flashing (MSF), Steam
turbines would be great.

Many thanks - Stephen  

The First Asian Web Site For ELO & ELO Part II
http://www.hk.super.net/~bluesky/

For your autographed copy of Eric Troyer's Model Citizen,
check http://www.hk.super.net/~bluesky/elo_1305.html



From Trythis@Money.com Sun Jul 14 22:59:06 EDT 1996
Article: 991 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: "Try this" <Trythis@Money.com>
Newsgroups: alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.neutopia,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.society.underwear,alt.society.zeitgeist,alt.soft-sys.corel.draw,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solaris.x86
Subject: money making/saving reports
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:04:26 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <01bb6c69.68891200$608545c7@system>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 96.dallas-2.tx.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BB6C3F.7FB30A00"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1085
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.mental-health:3634 alt.society.neutopia:27260 alt.society.resistance:5719 alt.society.revolution:20107 alt.society.sovereign:15269 alt.society.underwear:6605 alt.soft-sys.corel.draw:9442 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1434 alt.solar.thermal:991 alt.solaris.x86:525

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BB6C3F.7FB30A00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


------=_NextPart_000_01BB6C3F.7FB30A00
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Description: .txt (Text Document)
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Money reports.txt"

12 Money making/saving reports worth $125 for $20!!!

#1> How to get free subscriptions to over 100 magazines
This report is incredible,  it tells you exactly where to write for FREE =
magazines subscriptions. Over 100 of them! You may already be paying for =
some of these publications, but not anymore. After having this report =
you will be able to enjoy over 100 magazines free!
$10.00 value

#2> Establish AAA-1 credit and borrow up to $50,000
Amazing report tells you how to -step by step- get Gold And Platinum =
cards...And get $50,000 in credit when ever you want.
$10.00 Value

#3> How to make money while you shop
would you like to make $300 - $500 a week for shopping at your favorite =
malls? You can't miss this one, this can be one of your most exciting =
moments, you need to read this incredible report. You'll be amazed!
$15.00 Value

#4> How to make $25,000 a year just by listening to other people talk
yes you heard it right. You could be making money right now listening to =
what others have to say. It is really fun and simple! A great way to =
make lots of money. Wait until you read this one.=20
$10.00 Value

#5> How To retire without money
Would you like to live in retirement, living in a beautiful villa with a =
swimming pool, Jacuzzi, and several servants? This special report will =
tell how. You could be living in a life of luxury right now and don't =
even know about this one.
$15.00 Value

#6> Drive a new luxury car every year - FREE
this report will show you how you can drive a brand new cadillac, BWM, =
Mercedes, Porsche, every year for FREE! This one is a must!
$10.00 Value

#7> How to buy surplus autos, boats, airplanes, sty for 2 cents on the =
dollar
There are thousands of items available from the U.S. Government, such as =
computers, cars, jeeps, furniture, etc. right now there are a lot of =
opportunities to buy these items dirt cheap. You can make incredible =
profits!
$15.00 Value

#8> How to travel anywhere in the world for free
I want to show you 2 easy ways to do this, and the amazing thing is that =
you will not spend a penny, you will be traveling totally free. This is =
hot! How much have you spent traveling? This report will show you how to =
travel FREE!
$15.00 Value

#9> How to get $50,000 or more...overnight just on your signature. No =
credit checks
Could you use $50,000? You will beable to just sign your name and you =
will receive a cashiers check for $50,000 or more. This report is pure =
dynamite!
$15.00 Value

#10> How to get a Visa or Mastercard with bad or no credit
If you don't have a credit card, you need one right now! Why? To make =
hotel reservations, rent a car, or any emergency, when you need cash =
right that moment. This report will let you know how to get as many =
cards as you want.
$15.00 Value

PLUS 2 SECRET REPORTS FOR A TOTAL OF 12 REPORTS WORTH A TOTAL OF $125.00 =
FOR $20.00!!!

Send $20.00 cash or money order to:

JD Enterprises
reports offer
P.O. Box 850091
Mesquite, Tx 75185-0091


------=_NextPart_000_01BB6C3F.7FB30A00--



From ejnielse@ouray.cudenver.edu Sun Jul 14 22:59:06 EDT 1996
Article: 992 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!carbon!usenet
From: "Erik J. Nielsen" <ejnielse@ouray.cudenver.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.politics.economics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Some Folks Like Fast Cars - only fags don't
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 20:59:51 -0600
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <31E1CB27.54D6@ouray.cudenver.edu>
References: <31c7d62d.9541461@news.concentric.net> <31cd4fb6.1191597@news.telis.org> <4r6r11$k4i@news.ais.net> <4rkfev$ovu@news-2.csn.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nc2206-121.cudenver.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
To: Arthur Flax <flax@csn.net>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:992 alt.politics.economics:75345 alt.conspiracy:203731

Word!


From trade@global-merchants.com Sun Jul 14 22:59:07 EDT 1996
Article: 993 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!usenet
From: Gabriel Ige <trade@global-merchants.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: SOLAR PRODUCTS FOR SALE
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 03:57:58 -0700
Organization: Global Merchant Books
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <31E23B36.A37@global-merchants.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.netvip.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)

SOLAR  PRODUCTS FOR SALE

This is your one stop source for all your alternative energy =

requirements. You name it, we got it.  Please see the list below for a =

fraction of our products:

=B7 Solar Radio with Dynamo Charger
=B7 Pendant Solar Radio =

=B7 Visor Solar Radio
=B7 Solar panels and modules of various sizes, amps and watts
=B7 Solar lanterns
=B7 Solar water heaters
=B7 Solar water pumps
=B7 Solar UPS and Energy Centers
=B7 Wind Generators
=B7 Solar battery chargers
=B7 Inverters
=B7 volts ceiling fan
=B7 Solar street lights
=B7 Deep cycle batteries
=B7 Hydroelectric turbine

Name it, if it alternative energy, we got it.  For more information, =

please visit our site. Our big 120 catalog is available for $3, =

refundable on your first order.  The $3 is just to screen out non =

serious inquirers.  It is fully refundable on any purchase -- even $1 =

purchase.

For further information, contact:
Global Merchants
E-mail: solar@global-merchants.com
***************************************************************************=
***
Global Merchants				Phone:(909) 593-7278
724 Fairplex Drive, Ste. 19			Fax:     (909) 593-7349
Pomona, CA 91768 =96 1100			=

http://global-merchants.com/home/solars.htm
USA						=

solar@global-merchants.com
***************************************************************************=
***


From trade@global-merchants.com Sun Jul 14 22:59:07 EDT 1996
Article: 994 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!usenet
From: Gabriel Ige <trade@global-merchants.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,ALT,FORSALE,MISC.FORSALE,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: MOBILE GENERATOR FOR SALE
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 04:03:43 -0700
Organization: Global Merchants
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <31E23C8F.2556@global-merchants.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.netvip.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:1442 alt.energy.renewable:16212 alt.solar.thermal:994

MOBILE SPLIT  AIR CONDITIONER FOR SALE

We are marketing representative of a Germany-designed  Taiwan-made =

mobile air conditioner that is now made available to the US market. =

These mobile air conditioner are also available to popular world market. =

 We will even instruct our manufacturers to manufacture with your brand =

name at no additional cost.

The following model  are currently available for either 110/130 volts =

for the US and 220/240 volts for export from our manufacturer


SP-813STB

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
							=

Dimension:			Width: 52cm				=

				Height: 74cm
				Depth: 38cm
Outdoor Unit	                         Height: 37cm
				Depth: 20cm =

Weight:			          : 35kg indoor unit
				          : 8kg outdoor	=

Cooling Capacity:		          : 9000 Btu 2.18Kw
Cooling System		          : Air
Electrical Input		          : 220/240v		=

Rated  Current			          : 4.20 Amps
Power Consumption		          : 1000 W
Electrical Protection		          : Fused 10A 250v
Airflow (Max)			          : 270 CFM (450m3/hr)
Compressor			          : Rotary
Refrigerant			          : R22 900g
Safety Features			          : "Protect System" overload =

protection provided on                                                  =

                                             				=

            compressor and fan motor. Automatic High Pressure
					switch.	=

Controls			           : Oscillating Lourvres, =

Programmable Timer	=

Hose Connections		           : 2.4 metres Operating =

Operating Temperature 	           : 15oC - 35oC	=

PRICE:  $582.00 FOB Taiwan
MINIMUM ORDER: 2000
SAMPLE PRICE: $900.00 Air-freight additional

For further information, contact:
Global Merchants
E-mail: info@globalmerchants.com
***************************************************************************=
***
Global Merchants Imports			Phone:(909) 593-7278
724 Fairplex Drive, Ste. 19			Fax:     (909) 593-7349
Pomona, CA 91768 =96 1100			http://global-merchants.com/
USA						=

glomrchants@global-merchants.com
***************************************************************************=
***


From rpollard@silcom.com Sun Jul 14 22:59:07 EDT 1996
Article: 995 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!nwgw.infi.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.silcom.com!pm1-22
From: rpollard@silcom.com (Richard Pollard)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Design Book Recommendation?
Date: 10 Jul 1996 04:32:52 GMT
Organization: Silicon Beach - Business Internet Services
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4rvbpl$dv0@ocean.silcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-22.syv.silcom.com
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3

Can anyone recommend a good book to assist me in learning how to 
estimate/calculate performance and efficiencies of solar collectors.

I have an idea for a new type of collector but would like to try to simulate
it mathematically before building a prototype.

ANy assitance would be apprciated.


From woodgold@seismo.emr.ca Sun Jul 14 22:59:05 EDT 1996
Article: 996 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!emr1!news
From: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca (Catherine woodgold)
Subject: Re: Solar Design Book Recommendation?
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: saw19.seismo.emr.ca
Message-ID: <DuE20z.Ey6@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Sender: news@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca
Reply-To: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca
Organization: Natural Resources Canada/GSC/Seismology
References: <4rvbpl$dv0@ocean.silcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:02:59 GMT
Lines: 25


I don't know of any books, but do you really need one?

What you need is figures like the R-value (insulating value)
of various materials, heat capacity, etc.  Then you do a bunch
of calculations.  Note that often most of the heat leaks out
at joints.  Perhaps you can measure the R-values of the
materials yourself;  surround a pot of hot water with the
material and see how long it takes to get halfway to the
ambient temperature, or something like that.  Then there will
be some calculation to get the R-value, using the heat
capacity of water, volume of the water, etc.

I can help perhaps in figuring out how to do the
calculations, but I may not know
many of the basic numbers (like the heat capacity of
water expressed in non-metric units).  A handbook of
chemistry and physics should have most of these;  ask
at a library.


Cathy                                   TISSATAAFL
All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?  :-)




From briangee@supernet.net Sun Jul 14 22:59:05 EDT 1996
Article: 997 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news
From: Brian Gee <briangee@supernet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: hot water usage
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:33:13 -0700
Organization: SUPERNET - Florida's On-Ramp to the Information SuperHighway
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <31E51EB9.65CE@supernet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tlh22.supernet.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)

I am considering the cost savings of a solar DHW system.

Can anyone give information on the number of KWHs used per day to heat 
water for a family of three? If available, how many gallons at what temp?


From dgrizzle@viagrafix.com Wed Jul 31 23:57:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1001 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!ionews.ionet.net!usenet
From: dgrizzle@viagrafix.com
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Floor insulation
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:45:40 -0700
Organization: Internet Oklahoma
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <31EEE8C4.64FA@viagrafix.com>
References: <31EDA41E.CDF@cqi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.41.137.26
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7459 alt.solar.thermal:1001

I'm building a small house in N.E. Oklahoma that will be solar heated and use a slab 
type floor. I'm interested in utilizing the thermal mass of the floor to store heat on 
those cold winter nights. For this purpose it seems like I would want to insulate the 
slab from the soil. I had thought of putting down a vapor barrier and 1 inch thick 
expanded polystyrene. On top of this I could put a layer of gravel under the slab to 
increase the amount of mass but I'm not sure I could get the gravel down without tearing 
up the insulation. I could use soil or sand in place of the gravel I suppose. 

On the other hand we have hot humid summers so it seems like a uninsulated slab with 
only a vapor barrier would help keep the house cooler.

I would appreciate hearing ideas from anyone who has an opinion on this subject.


From virtualh@sover.net Wed Jul 31 23:57:20 EDT 1996
Article: 1002 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!news
From: Stuart Savel <virtualh@sover.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: corner glazing
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 12:27:38 +0000
Organization: SoVerNet, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <31EF7F3A.7C36@sover.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm0a23.bf.sover.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

I am looking for a supplier of  steel channel for corner glazing 1" 
heat mirror glass. preferably with a thermal break.  Or other 
suggestions witha minimum profile.

Stuart Savel


From gefosat@imaginet.fr Wed Jul 31 23:57:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1003 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!iway.fr!imaginet.fr!cyber3.montp.imaginet.fr!gefosat
From: Renaud Mikolasek <gefosat@imaginet.fr>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Gefosat on the Web
Date: 25 Jul 1996 10:56:02 GMT
Organization: Gefosat
Lines: 6
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4t7js2$8je@avalon.imaginet.fr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cyber3.montp.imaginet.fr
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Nuntius 2.0.3_PPC
X-XXMessage-ID: <AE1D1FFAC2020F44@cyber3.montp.imaginet.fr>
X-XXDate: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:58:34 GMT

Gefosat is a French organization that works on solar energy.
we are now on the Web :
http://www.imaginet.fr/~gefosat

Have a look to our software 'Pleaides'.  It is a thermal simulator for
passive solar multizones buildings.


From asawa@eagle.ais.net Wed Jul 31 23:57:22 EDT 1996
Article: 1004 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.ais.net!eagle.ais.net!asawa
From: asawa@eagle.ais.net (Ronald Roden)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: oooooo
Date: 26 Jul 1996 14:18:16 GMT
Organization: ABCD, Inc.
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <4tak38$hg6@news.ais.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.ais.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]




From staff@freecard.com Wed Jul 31 23:57:23 EDT 1996
Article: 1005 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.gold-link.com!usenet
From: staff@freecard.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: FREE 19 cents/minute rechargeable calling cards!
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:38:25 GMT
Organization: Gold-Link Communications, Inc
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4tfqod$opm@news.gold-link.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: client49.gold-link.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

MT Communications, Inc. 
61 Sampson St. 
Garfield, NJ 07026 

Email: staff@freecard.com 
WWW: http://www.freecard.com 


> Tired of paying over 2 dollars for a minute of interstate calls from a payphone? Not anymore! 
With our calling card, it's only 19 cents/minute! Taxes and tariffs
included. 

> Call from anywhere to anywhere in the USA including Hawaii and Alaska using any phone. 

> Lowest rates on international calls as well! 
Canada - 27c, UK - 30c, Japan - 45c, Australia - 35c, Russia - 92c,
Germany - 43c, Greece - 54c, Israel - 82c per minute, and most other
countries. 
International rates are subject to change. 

> Fully rechargeable you can charge $25 to $1000. Charge by using a credit card, check or money order. 
Telephone computer will warn you to recharge, when you have only few
minutes left on your card. 

> No activation/monthly fees. 

> Crystal-clear connection. 

> Very easy to use. 

> Solid support in case you have a problem. 


TO GET YOUR FREE CALLING CARD, JUST EMAIL US YOUR NAME and ADDRESS, 
OR VISIT OUR WWW PAGE. YOU WILL RECEIVE YOUR FREE CALLING CARD WITHIN
FIVE WORKING DAYS. 


Thank you. 




From ftouch@tima.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:22 EDT 1996
Article: 1006 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersource.com!news
From: John Ortals <ftouch@tima.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar panels; sources for
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 15:30:45 -0700
Organization: The Finishing Touch
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <3203D315.4EF1@tima.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: timats1-3-13.tima.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)

I am looking for a supplier of small Solar Panels or Photo-voltaic 
modules which could be used to power small household appliances (such as 
a 3" to 6" inch fan or similar items).  Any info anyone can provide me is 
appreciated.

My e-mail address is: ftouch@tima.com

John


From sjmoore@interlog.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:23 EDT 1996
Article: 1007 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.interlog.com!sjmoore.interlog.com!user
From: sjmoore@interlog.com (Steven Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Help! Canadian Suppliers of propane & solar technology
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 08:52:19 -0500
Organization: Moore Partners Ltd.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <sjmoore-0408960852190001@sjmoore.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sjmoore.interlog.com

We just bought an off-the-grid house on 80 acres (yippee) and are looking
for Canadian suppliers of appropriate technology (similar to Jade
Mountain). Any leads out there? Thanks in advance, please reply to my
e-mail.

Cheers...Steven 
€ € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € 
           Steven Moore, Writer
          sjmoore@interlog.com
 "It's great to be considered working
   when you're staring out the window."
         
€ € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € € €  


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug 15 23:57:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1008 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: A roofpond house
Date: 5 Aug 1996 09:41:46 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <4u4tmq$f51@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: summertime, and the cooling is easy...
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:7535 alt.solar.thermal:1008 alt.energy.renewable:16668 sci.energy:53218

Medford, OR, doesn't have a lot of sun in the winter.
Here are some NREL climatic average data... 

          24 hour   daytime  nightime  average sun on  
          avg temp  high     low       s wall  horiz surface

December      38 F  44 F     31 F      550     390 Btu/ft^2/day
July          73    91       55        1020    2450

In July, the average windspeed is 6 mph, and the average humidity ratio
of the air is 0.0076 #water/#dry air. The elevation is 1299', and the
air pressure is 14.1 psia, vs 14.7 at sea level.

A 2-story 2000 ft^2 house in Medford with 3000 ft^2 of walls and ceiling with
an average US R-value of 10 might need 3000 ft^2/R10 = 300 Btu/hr-F, ie
(91 F - 75 F) x 300 Btu/hr-F = 4800 Btu/hour of cooling when the house is 75 F
inside and it's 91 F outside in July. Over the 4600 heating degree day winter,
it might need 24 hours x 4600 DD x 300 = 33 million Btu/year of heat, say 300
gallons of oil per year, at a cost of $300, or $900 in propane? Could we use
a sunspace and solar closet for space heat and domestic hot water? 

Some R1 sunspace glazing, eg a single layer of polyester film, with something
white on the ground in front of it, will receive about 550x4/3 = 733 Btu/ft^2
of solar heat, on an average December day, and lose about 6 hours x (80F - 44F)
x 1 ft^2/R1 = 216 Btu, for a net gain of 517 Btu/day. The house needs about 
24 hours (68 F - 38 F) 300 Btu/hr-F = 216K Btu to stay warm on that average
day, ie 216K/517 = 418 ft^2 of shallow sunspace glazing, eg a lean-to sunspace
16' tall and 32' long. (Moving the house to El Paso, Texas, would reduce that
sunspace glazing area to 16' tall x 8' long.)

Storing space heat for 5 cloudy days would require 5x216K/25K = 43 55 gallon
plastic drums full of 130 F water, each 2' diameter x 3' tall. We might use
50 of them in 5 layers, each about 10' wide x 4' deep in a solar closet, or
stack fewer drums on top of a concrete septic tank that is used for high
temperature sewage treatment. And partition the store into two sections, 
a lower temp one for space heating and water preheating, and a higher temp
one for second-stage water heating.  

Spraying water on the roof would keep it close to the summer wet bulb temp
of 50 F, reducing the heat load for the house by an amount that depends on
the roof area and the amount of insulation between the house and the roof.
It takes about 1000 Btu to evaporate a pound of water, so 5 pounds of water
per hour would cool it by 5,000 Btu/hour. Spraying more water and collecting
it in a gutter and recycling it through a water-air heat exchanger in the 
house would cool the house more. Magic Aire (a division of United Electric
in Galveston, TX) makes a nice all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct heat exchanger
that costs about $150 and transfers 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F
air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop. This would make about 16K
Btu/hour of cooling with a 20 F air/water delta T, equivalent to about 3
window ACs, but with less dehumidification ability. Could the house be
dehumidified with a dessicant sunspace floor (a thin layer of reinforced
concrete, with some foam underneath?), vented to the outside during the
afternoon and the inside at dawn? We probably don't need this in Medford.

It would help if the house had lots of thermal mass inside so we could
ventilate it at night and button it up during the day, for good cooling.

A flat roof with a 2" deep roof pond might need less materials and electrical 
cooling power, with winter heating and fire protection advantages, and make
a natural gravity-pressurized rainwater supply for the house. A 1000 ft^2 roof
would collect an average of 67 gallons of water per day with a 40" annual
rainfall and a 2" pond would store 1250 gallons of water. A 50' long x 12'
wide x 4' deep pond made from a single piece of EPDM rubber under a north
overhang of the house would increase rainwater collection to over 100 gallons
per day and make a total cooling and water supply storage of over 20,000
gallons. Richard Komp's house in Maine has a 1000 gallon cistern and a
roof/rainwater supply. One does have to conserve water, this way. Could we
evaporate and recondense greywater with a shallow pond inside the sunspace?
It would be nice to do the condensing inside the house somehow in winter.

With an average 38 F December temperature and an average 390 Btu/ft^2/day of
sun that falls on a horizontal surface, we might float an R1 pool cover on the
roof in winter, so the pond water at temperature T might lose 24 hours x (T-38)
x 1 ft^2/R1 on an average day, so T = 38 + 390/34 = 54 F, not counting the
heat that leaks up from the house through the roof. This would reduce the
heating load through the roof. (Perhaps this should be a one story house?)
Say we designed the roof to hold up 20 pounds per square foot (with 12' 2x6
or 20' 2x10 rafters on 2' centers?) 10 pounds for the 2" deep pond, and 10
more pounds to allow 2' of snow on the roof. (Which might be helpful extra
insulation, during a very cold spell. It would take about 1660 Btu/ft^2 to
freeze the roof pond, starting at T = 54 F, eg about 1660/38 = 44 sunless
hours at Medford's record low temp of -6 F.)

If the snow on the roof got too deep (we might use a microswitch activated by
roof deflection to sense this) we could pump some groundwater up through the
roof pond to melt it. How much 55 F groundwater would we need to keep up with
a very heavy snowfall, eg 3" per hour? I think that's equivalent to about
0.3" of ice per hour, ie 1.6 pounds of ice, or 230 Btu/hr-ft^2, since it takes
144 Btu to melt a pound of ice, at 32 F. For a 1000 ft^2 roof, that's 230K 
Btu/hour. Each pound of water supplies 55-32 = 23 Btu, so 230K/23 = 10K pounds
of water per hour could keep up with that snowstorm, ie 21 gallons per minute,
a big pump, so... we might want to set the switch to turn on with 1' of snow,
in anticipation. And keep a big post handy to prop up the roof inside, once
in a great while :-), especially if the roof starts to sag in the middle,
making the pond deeper and increasing the load in the middle... But it seems
to me all this would rarely be required, especially since the house would be
providing some heat through the roof too.

I've heard there's a building in a park in Mt. Ranier, WA that works this way,
with a flat roof, even tho they get 20'/year of snow there. I doubt they use
groundwater for snow melting. If we have to do this seldom enough we might use
stored solar heat or even electric resistance heat... 

In summer, without the roof pond cover, we might pump some 70 F water through
the roof pond at night, when the average low is 55 F, in July. With a rough
surface thermal conductivity of 2 + 6 mph/2 = 5 Btu/hr-ft^2-F from the wind,
a 1000 ft^2 pond might lose 4 hours (70 F - 55 F) 1000 ft^2 x 5 = 300K Btu
per day, vs the 38K Btu/day needed for cooling the house for 8 hours a day.
That's good, but it gets better...

At sea level, the ratio of evaporative to convective pond cooling is about
1000(Pp-Pa)/(Tp-Ta)), independent of windspeed, where Pp and Pa are vapor
pressures of water in the pond and air in inches of mercury, and Tp and Ta
are Farenheit pond and air temperatures. The vapor pressure of water in 70 F
air is 0.74 "Hg (Clausius-Clapeyron: ln(Pw) = 17.863-9621/Tabs), and air with
a 0.0076 humidity ratio, W, has Pa = 29.92/(1+0.62198/W) = 0.36 "Hg. Medford's
elevation increases this ratio by another factor of 14.7/14.1, so the pond
might lose 25 times more heat by evaporation than by convection on an average
July night. A total of almost 8 million Btu/day, over 200 times more cooling
than needed...

Nick



From jps@mti.sgi.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:25 EDT 1996
Article: 1009 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news.corp.sgi.com!inn
From: James Salsman <jps@mti.sgi.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Another thing EVs do not do to the environment]
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 23:20:59 -0700
Organization: Mips Technologies, Inc.
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <3202EFCB.4DAA@mti.sgi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wing.mti.sgi.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6488773C6F59"
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01S (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------6488773C6F59
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Almost forgot this group...  :jps

--------------6488773C6F59
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Path: news.corp.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!usenet
From: James Salsman <jsalsman@bovik.org>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech,sci.space,misc.transportation.urban,sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.econ
Subject: Re: Another thing EVs do not do to the environment
Date: 3 Aug 1996 02:30:29 GMT
Organization: Bovik Research
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4tudk5$fde@nntp1.best.com>
References: <4t8ctj$7qe@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31F892DF.D08@mcimail.com> <4tjef6$ckh@news.quiknet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bovik.vip.best.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: news.corp.sgi.com rec.autos.tech:196352 sci.space:21 sci.energy:56402 sci.environment:109973 sci.econ:54582

frcn@quiknet.com (Randy of the Feather River Canyon News) wrote:
>
> Whenever looking at alternative energy sources, we must look a the big
> picture. Electric vehicles will become more effective (pollution and
> cost wise) when [solar energy becomes realistic]...

Exactly; that is why we must develop solar turbine-powered masers 
for placement between Mercury and Venus to beam energy to recieving 
antennas at L5 and other stable orbits and down-transmission to 
Earth stations at atmosphere-transparent bands.

> and batteries become more efficient (and preferably lead-free). 

Agreed:  http://www.calstart.org/reference/papers/rechargi.html

> If we all drive inefficient vehicles now, we will use all the gas
> sooner, and alternative energy sources will then be available from GM,
> FORD, CHRYSLER< and others holding patents they won't release until
> they have to (read that as- until they can no longer make money
> manufacturing petroleum-fuel based internal combustion vehicles).

That argument is absurd; those patents will expire, and 
many of them already have.

More info:  http://www.stncar.com/ etc.

Sincerely,
:James Salsman

Disclaimer:  I bike.



--------------6488773C6F59--



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug 15 23:57:26 EDT 1996
Article: 1010 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!rochester!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy
Subject: a roofpond house (updated Aug 6)
Date: 6 Aug 1996 09:38:59 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 178
Message-ID: <4u7htj$2c5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: summertime, and the cooling is easy...
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8352 alt.solar.thermal:1010 alt.energy.renewable:16686 alt.architecture.alternative:7545 sci.energy:53269

Medford, OR, doesn't have a lot of sun in the winter.
Here are some NREL climatic average data... 

          24 hour   daytime  nightime  average sun on  
          avg temp  high     low       s wall  horiz surface

December      38 F  44 F     31 F      550     390 Btu/ft^2/day
July          73    91       55        1020    2450

In July, the average windspeed is 6 mph, and the average humidity ratio
of the air is W = 0.0076 #water/#dry air. The elevation is 1299', and 
the air pressure is 14.1 psia, vs 14.7 at sea level.

A 2-story 2000 ft^2 house in Medford with 3000 ft^2 of walls and ceiling with
an average US R-value of 10 might need 3000 ft^2/R10 = 300 Btu/hr-F, ie
(91 F - 75 F) x 300 Btu/hr-F = 4800 Btu/hour of cooling when the house is 75 F
inside and it's 91 F outside in July. Over the 4600 heating degree day winter,
it might need 24 hours x 4600 DD x 300 = 33 million Btu/year of heat, say 300
gallons of oil per year, at a cost of $300, or $900 in propane? Could we use
a sunspace and solar closet for space heat and domestic hot water? 

Some R1 sunspace glazing, eg a single layer of polyester film, with something
white on the ground in front of it, will receive about 550x4/3 = 733 Btu/ft^2
of solar heat, on an average December day, and lose about 6 hours x (80F - 44F)
x 1 ft^2/R1 = 216 Btu, for a net gain of 517 Btu/day. The house needs about 
24 hours (68 F - 38 F) 300 Btu/hr-F = 216K Btu to stay warm on that average
day, ie 216K/517 = 418 ft^2 of shallow sunspace glazing, eg a lean-to sunspace
16' tall and 32' long. (Moving the house to El Paso, Texas, would reduce that
sunspace glazing area to 16' tall x 8' long.)

Storing space heat for 5 cloudy days would require 5x216K/25K = 43 55 gallon
plastic drums full of 130 F water, each 2' diameter x 3' tall. We might use
50 of them in 5 layers, each about 10' wide x 4' deep in a solar closet, or
stack fewer drums on top of a concrete septic tank that is used for high
temperature sewage treatment, and partition the store into two sections, a
lower temp one for space heating and water preheating, and a higher temp one
for second-stage water heating.  

Spraying water on the roof would keep it close to the summer wet bulb temp
of 50 F, reducing the heat load for the house by an amount that depends on
the roof area and the amount of insulation between the house and the roof.
It takes about 1000 Btu to evaporate a pound of water, so 5 pounds of water
per hour would cool it by 5,000 Btu/hour. Spraying more water and collecting
it in a gutter and recycling it through a water-air heat exchanger in the 
house would cool the house more. Magic Aire (a division of United Electric
in Galveston, TX) makes a nice all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347 duct heat exchanger
that costs about $150 and transfers 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F
air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop. This would make about 16K
Btu/hour of cooling with a 20 F air/water delta T, equivalent to about 3
window ACs, but with less dehumidification ability. Could the house be
dehumidified with a dessicant sunspace floor (a thin layer of reinforced
concrete, with some foam underneath?), vented to the outside during the
afternoon and the inside at dawn? We probably don't need this in Medford.

It would help if the house had lots of thermal mass inside so we could
ventilate it at night and button it up during the day, for good cooling.
Perhaps it should be made of rocks, with a rubble trench foundation and
a tiny amount of mortar, or none at all, and a poly film vapor barrier
on the outside, with a large overhang and some strawbales or a layer of
paper mache over that, and paint over that. The rocks near the ceiling
might store solar heat in the winter, with a ceiling fan to bring down
some heat on a cloudy day.

Maybe it should be a dome, or something. Here's a quote from D. C. Beard's
_Shelters, Shacks and Shanties_, first published in 1914: "The principal
difference between a white man's architecture and the Indian's lies in
the fact that the white man, with brick, stone, or frame house in mind,
is possessed of a desire to build perpendicular walls--walls which are
hard to thatch and difficult to cover with turf..." 

A flat roof with a 2" deep roof pond might need less materials and electrical 
cooling power, with winter heating and fire protection advantages, and make
a natural gravity-pressurized rainwater supply for the house. A 1000 ft^2 roof
would collect an average of 67 gallons of water per day with a 40" annual
rainfall and a 2" pond would store 1250 gallons of water. A 50' long x 12'
wide x 4' deep pond made from a single piece of EPDM rubber under a north
overhang of the house would increase rainwater collection to over 100 gallons
per day and make a total cooling and water supply storage of over 20,000
gallons. Richard Komp's house in Maine has a 1000 gallon cistern and a
roof/rainwater supply. One does have to conserve water, this way. Could we
evaporate and recondense greywater with a shallow pond inside the sunspace?
It would be nice to do the condensing inside the house somehow in winter.

With an average 38 F December temperature and an average 390 Btu/ft^2/day of
sun that falls on a horizontal surface, we might float an R1 pool cover on the
roof in winter, so the pond water at temperature T might lose 24 hours x (T-38)
x 1 ft^2/R1 on an average day, so T = 38 + 390/34 = 54 F, not counting the
heat that leaks up from the house through the roof. This would reduce the
heating load through the roof. (Perhaps this should be a one story house?)
Say we designed the roof to hold up 20 pounds per square foot (with 16' 2x6
or 24' 2x10 rafters on 2' centers?) 10 pounds for the 2" deep pond, and 10
more pounds to allow 2' of snow on the roof. (Which might be helpful extra
insulation, during a very cold spell. It would take about 1660 Btu/ft^2 to
freeze the roof pond, starting at T = 54 F, eg about 1660/38 = 44 sunless
hours at Medford's record low temp of -6 F.)

If the snow on the roof got too deep (we might use a microswitch activated by
roof deflection to sense this) we could pump some groundwater up through the
roof pond to melt it. How much 55 F groundwater would we need to keep up with
a very heavy snowfall, eg 3" per hour? I think that's equivalent to about
0.3" of ice per hour, ie 1.6 pounds of ice, or 230 Btu/hr-ft^2, since it takes
144 Btu to melt a pound of ice, at 32 F. For a 1000 ft^2 roof, that's 230K 
Btu/hour. Each pound of water supplies 55-32 = 23 Btu, so 230K/23 = 10K pounds
of water per hour could keep up with that snowstorm, ie 21 gallons per minute,
a big pump, so... we might want to set the switch to turn on with 1' of snow,
in anticipation. And keep a big post handy to prop up the roof inside, once
in a great while :-), especially if the roof starts to sag in the middle,
making the pond deeper and increasing the load in the middle... But it seems
to me all this would rarely be required, especially since the house would be
providing some heat through the roof too.

The National Park Service visitor's center building in Mt. Ranier, WA (contact
Victoria Jacabson or Eric Watkinshaw at (360) 569-2211) has a flat roof, even
though they get 20'/year of snow there. They use groundwater for snow melting.
If we have to do this seldom enough we might use stored solar heat or even
electric resistance heat... 

In summer, without the roof pond cover, we might pump some 70 F water through
the roof pond at night, when the average low is 55 F, in July. With a rough
surface thermal conductivity of 2 + 6 mph/2 = 5 Btu/hr-ft^2-F from the wind,
a 1000 ft^2 pond might lose 4 hours (70 F - 55 F) 1000 ft^2 x 5 = 300K Btu
per day, vs the 38K Btu/day needed for cooling the house for 8 hours a day.
That's good, but it gets better...

At sea level, the ratio of evaporative to convective pond cooling is about
1000(Pp-Pa)/(Tp-Ta)), independent of windspeed, where Pp and Pa are vapor
pressures of water in the pond and air in inches of mercury, and Tp and Ta
are Farenheit pond and air temperatures. The vapor pressure of water in 70 F
air is 0.74 "Hg (Clausius-Clapeyron: ln(Pw) = 17.863-9621/Tabs), and air with
a 0.0076 humidity ratio, W, has Pa = 29.92/(1+0.62198/W) = 0.36 "Hg. Medford's
elevation increases this ratio by another factor of 14.7/14.1, so the pond
might lose 25 times more heat by evaporation than by convection on an average
July night. A total of over 8 million Btu/day, 214 times the cooling required,
if the heat exchanger were perfect.

Nick

PS: Here's a system that looks balanced, with a 60 F roof pond that loses 186K
Btu on an average July night when the outdoor temp is 55 F, and collects 190K 
Btu from the 70 F house with that Magic Aire duct heat exchanger (or a used
auto radiator with its electric fan?) to the 70 F house, about 5 times as much
cooling as the house needs when it's 91 F outside for 8 hours a day. Adding
another heat exchanger and/or making the pond surface rough, somehow (ping
pong balls, so U = 2 + V/2 in line 100?) would let the house be even cooler.

10 'a program to help maximize roofpond cooling for a Medford house...
20 PALOC=14.1'local air pressure (psia)
30 TA=55'average minimum night air temperature (F)
40 H=4'duration of night air temp (hours)
50 W=.0076'humidity ratio of ambient air (#water/#dry air)
60 V=6'average windspeed (mph)
70 TH=70'house air temp setpoint (F)
80 TP=60'roof pond operating temp (F)
90 A=1000'roof pond area (ft^2)
100 U=1.5+V/5'air film conductance of smooth pond surface (Btu/hr-F)
110 QCP=H*(TP-TA)*A*U'convective heat loss from pond surface (Btu/day)
120 PA=29.921/(1+.62198/W)'vapor pressure of water in ambient air ("Hg)
130 'Clausius-Clapeyron equation: ln(Pw) = C-K/Tabs,
140 '         where Pw is the vapor pressure of water in inches of mercury
150 '         in saturated air at absolute temperature Tabs (R)
160 C = 17.86253'constants
170 K = 9620.979
180 TZ=459.67'Rankine base temp (F)
190 TABP=TP+TZ'absolute pond temp (R)
200 PP=EXP(C-K/TABP)'vapor pressure of sat air at Tp ("Hg)
210 ELF=14.7/PALOC'correction for local elevation
220 ER=1000*(PP-PA)*ELF/(TP-TA)'ratio of evap. to convective pond heat loss
230 QTP=QCP+ER*QCP'total heat loss from roof pond (Btu/day)
240 QHE=45000!'rated heat exchanger output (Btu/hr)
250 DTR=125-68'delta T for rated output (F)
260 UHE=QHE/DTR'effective thermal conductivity of heat exchanger (Btu/hr-F)
270 QH=24*(TH-TP)*UHE'heat exchanger output (Btu/day)
280 PRINT QTP,QH

1858676       189473.7

PPS: Our solar closet paper is at http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From adc@dorsai.org Thu Aug 15 23:57:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1011 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.randomc.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.dorsai.org!news.dorsai.org!not-for-mail
From: adc@dorsai.org (Frank Didik)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Nick Pine, where are you?
Date: 3 Aug 1996 04:26:49 -0400
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, Inc.
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <4tv2g9$dto@amanda.dorsai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Nick Pine, the most knowledgeable person I know on solar heating, I lost 
your email address when my HD crashed.   Give me a call.   I am now 
trying to use solar energy to heat water.  


From lob@vornet.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1012 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!venus.sun.com!olivea!express.ior.com!usenet
From: Rich Lobrovich <lob@vornet.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy
Subject: Re: a roofpond house (updated Aug 6)
Date: 9 Aug 1996 07:53:48 GMT
Organization: AIR HVAC
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4ueqqc$7b6@express.ior.com>
References: <4u7htj$2c5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-017.vornet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8423 alt.solar.thermal:1012 alt.energy.renewable:16781 alt.architecture.alternative:7555 sci.energy:53425

Nick thanks for the great article on roof ponds I have not seen that much 
effort put into a subject for a long time .



>From  what I remember many years ago , the research was based on
cooling the house by water on the roof; absorbing the heat from the 
interior space during the day . At night the primary heat of rejection 
for the roof pond was Radiation to the dark body of space.

Please comment on this for general discussion.

Thanks Rich Lob




From lob@vornet.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1013 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!venus.sun.com!olivea!express.ior.com!usenet
From: Rich Lobrovich <lob@vornet.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy
Subject: Re: a roofpond house (updated Aug 6)
Date: 9 Aug 1996 07:53:45 GMT
Organization: AIR HVAC
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4ueqq9$6gg@express.ior.com>
References: <4u7htj$2c5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-017.vornet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8424 alt.solar.thermal:1013 alt.energy.renewable:16782 alt.architecture.alternative:7556 sci.energy:53426

Nick thanks for the great article on roof ponds I have not seen that much 
effort put into a subject for a long time .



>From  what I remember many years ago , the research was based on
cooling the house by water on the roof; absorbing the heat from the 
interior space during the day . At night the primary heat of rejection 
for the roof pond was Radiation to the dark body of space.

Please comment on this for general discussion.

Thanks Rich Lob




From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug 15 23:57:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1014 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.energy,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy
Subject: Re: a roofpond house (updated Aug 6)
Date: 9 Aug 1996 10:12:28 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 191
Message-ID: <4ufh0c$6j7@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4u7htj$2c5@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4ueqqc$7b6@express.ior.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8429 alt.solar.thermal:1014 alt.energy.renewable:16788 alt.architecture.alternative:7559 sci.energy:53442

Rich Lobrovich  <lob@vornet.com> wrote:

>Nick thanks for the great article on roof ponds I have not seen that much 
>effort put into a subject for a long time.

Glad you liked it, Rich... Now if we could just  build  one :-)

>From what I remember many years ago , the research was based on
>cooling the house by water on the roof; absorbing the heat from the 
>interior space during the day.

That sounds like Harold Hay's work, with motorized insulating shutters
over the pond. This would be less ambitious, and use a little more energy
for cooling, with permanent insulation under the pond, pumping some water
up through the pond at night for cooling, and using a fan coil unit (like
an auto radiator) inside the house. 

>At night the primary heat of rejection 
>for the roof pond was Radiation to the dark body of space.

I suppose one might lose more heat that way than by evaporation, but it
seems unlikely to me that the pond could get much cooler than the wet bulb
temp of the surrounding air, when condensation would begin.
 
>Please comment on this for general discussion.

OK. Here are some crude thoughts on how to actually make a roof pond,
perhaps on top of a strawbale house...

One way to make a reliably leak-free roof pond might be to use two layers
of EPDM rubber instead of one, with a spacer between that lets water flow,
eg a layer of greenhouse shadecloth. And build the pools in 8' wide strip
compartments, with a 2x4 to make a standing seam screwed to the edge of one
piece of OSB from below, and an aluminum cap strip to hold the two pieces of
rubber on to the 2x4, with a 2x4 or 2x6 rafter underneath as well, screwed
to both pieces of OSB, and 3 1/2" of insulation with a vapor barrier under 
that, perhaps like this:

       | <--         8'              --> |           The rubber comes in 10' 
     Al                                Al            wide rolls. I don't like
    rrrrr                            rrrrr           wasting 2' of the width 
    rrrrr                            rrrrr           this way...
    rrrrr         w a t e r          rrrrr
    rrrrr                            rrrrr
  rrrr2rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr2rrrrrrr
     rxr      s h a d e c l o t h     rxr                
 rrrrr4rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr4rrrrrrrrrr      
------- ---------------------OSB-------- --------------
       2   fiberglas   2                2                 
       x   insulation  x                x             
       4               4                4               
               polyethylene film                                 
-------------------------------------------------------
    flat 1 x 3s on 2' centers, perpendicular to 2x4s
-------------------------------------------------------

Then make all the underlayers of rubber drain to one monitoring point,
and if a leak is ever detected, figure out which pond leaked, drain it,
unscrew it, lift it up, inspect it and patch or replace it. 

There is a nice inexpensive prefab/prestressed concrete section that could
probably hold up strawbales on top for roof insulation, under a pond...

                8'?
 ------------------------------------ 
|                          2"?       |      24' long?
 ---------------    -----------------
                |  |
		|  |  3"?
		 --

This is probably stronger than needed for most house roofs. Perhaps it
should be cast in place, and thinner.

The main drain might just be an overflow onto a sheet of rubber over more
OSB, a continuation of the roof over the north side, down to a cistern made
of more EPDM along the north side of the house. That overhang might cover
the cistern, and form the north weather wall of the house, like this: 

                 main drain -->
           .............
 sunspace. .           ..
        .  .   house   . .
       .   .           .  .
 . ref.    .           .   .
 .pool..................   .......
                       ..... <--cistern, 10' wide x 4' deep x 32' long?
                                         about 10K gallons...

The underlayers might terminate in lips that come over the house wall
in the sunspace, so if there's a leak we can see it running down and
dripping off an underlayer of rubber, and tell which section is leaking.
The north edge of the underlayers would go up 2"...

The insulation under the roof needs a vapor barrier, and some way to breathe
to the outside a little along the south wall, and a tiny air gap between it
and the OSB.

I suppose strawbale walls might be built like this: 

   no plaster on this surface
        cwcwcwcwcwcwcwcw
        w ------------ c
	c.            .w
	w.            .c
	c.            .w
	w.            .
	 .            .
          ------------ 

Ie, drape 2" chicken wire over 10% (?) of the bales, before plastering.
The inside plaster might be less permeable to water than the outside.
More stearic acid or bitumin in it?

And a roof pond might look like this exploded view:

        .                    water                  . EPDM
                  .                         .
                          .        .

        .                                           . cement
                  .                         .
                          .        .

        .                                           . burlap
                  .                         .
                          .        .
        .                                           . chicken wire
                  .                         .
                          .        .
       ---                                         ---
      | 2 |                                       | 2 |
      | x |                                       | x |
      | 4 |                                       | 4 |
       ---                                         ---
        .                                           . straw
                  .                         .
                          .        .
        .                                           . poly film
                  .                         .
                          .        .
        .                                           . chicken wire
                  .                         .
                          .        .

Or more simply:


        .                    water                  . EPDM
                  .                         .
                          .        .

        .                                           . cement
                  .                         .
                          .        .

                      6" of loose straw 
        .                                           . chicken wire
                  .                         .
                          .        .
        .                                           . poly film, painted white?
                  .                         .
                          .        .
       ---                                         ---
      | 2 |                                       | 2 |
      | x |                                       | x |
      | 4 |                                       | 4 |
       ---                                         ---

This version would not have as much insulation around the 2x4's, but
that wouldn't matter much if they were 10' apart... We'd probably want
some compressive 10' bracing between the 2x4s until the cement sets,
to keep them from sliding together... 

How about this for a foundation on grade?

             --------------------------------------
				   sill            .
	unvented crawl space	   cinder <--4'--> . <--airtight skirt
	over vapor barrier         block           .
        ------------------------------------------------------------
                                     ^
				     |
                                     the ground should not freeze
                                     under here, if it is kept dry.

This would work even better with an 8' cantilever, or a strawbale
inside the skirt...

Nick



From Scott@Op.Net Thu Aug 15 23:57:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1015 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!op.net!tomorrow
From: Scott@Op.Net (Scott Peikin)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die,alt.electronics.analog.vlsi,alt.winsock.voice,alt.mining.recreational,alt.chinese.fengshui,alt.sci.time-travel,alt.fan.kevin-mitnick,alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup,alt.solar.thermal,alt.music.harry-chapin,alt.sport.croquet,alt.sufi,alt.fan.heather-locklear,alt.tv.knight-rider,alt.culture.saudi,alt.music.paul-westerberg,alt.random.noise,alt.fan.pooh,alt.riscbsd,alt.cheap-vision,alt.tv.china-beach,alt.culture.us.1980s,alt.irc.bots.eggdrop,alt.binaries.pictures.teen-idols,alt.culture.bullfight
Subject: Tomorrow
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 09:59:33 GMT
Organization: DiverseNet Inc.
Lines: 379
Message-ID: <4u9pfu$qqm@picasso.op.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d4-1a.ppp.op.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die:2 alt.electronics.analog.vlsi:2 alt.winsock.voice:557 alt.chinese.fengshui:758 alt.sci.time-travel:6189 alt.fan.kevin-mitnick:622 alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup:3102 alt.solar.thermal:1015 alt.music.harry-chapin:1735 alt.sufi:1395 alt.fan.heather-locklear:774 alt.tv.knight-rider:2240 alt.culture.saudi:3520 alt.music.paul-westerberg:997 alt.random.noise:2125 alt.fan.pooh:4716 alt.riscbsd:5 alt.cheap-vision:29 alt.tv.china-beach:127 alt.culture.us.1980s:5035 alt.irc.bots.eggdrop:83 alt.binaries.pictures.teen-idols:8268 alt.culture.bullfight:1965

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Note: Please Copy this file, as its contents, if they ever get out world wide 
will seriously impact the global economy as we know it. Reducing profit to 
companies and giving people world wide about 60% more buying power. 
Governments will try to repress this information. It directly targets the 
largest companies and profitable organizations and if any of these designs are 
implemented, those companies are going to be crucified. If you see it get 
pulled, please repost it to every news group in the world. Over and Over 
again. And Mail it to all of your friends. The first challenge is to see how 
powerful the net really is.
thanks, Scott@Op.Net

Tomorrow.......... 

V.C.C. 

Written and developed by Scott Peikin of DiverseNet Inc. Serious contributions 
to Vcc from K.

Table of Contents 
Aim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3
Background on Interactive Marketing Technologies ---------- 4
Introduction: The Virtual Storefront ------------------------------ 5
What Can the World Wide Web Do for V.C.C. ---------------- 6
The Competition ------------------------------------------------------ 7
Why not a Conventional "Virtual Business" -------------------- 8
Marketing Strategy: How will V.C.C. beat the competition -- 8
The United Consumers Club --------------------------------------- 11
Cost Analysis----------------------------------------------------------- 12
Year 1 Targets-----------------------------------------------------------14 
Contact Information----------------------------------------------------16 

 Aim: To create a "new" business the Virtual Consumers Club or V.C.C. which is 
a virtual storefront on what is commonly referred to as the information 
superhighway. It will be supported by the infrastructure of an existing 
"suitable" company such as U.C.C. V.C.C. will have distinct advantages over 
competitors. Profit will derive from a membership fee, not on profit margin, 
which is the way that most other virtual storefronts generate income. 
Operating costs will be minimal (without the overhead of the traditional 
storefront), and most important, there will be complete access to the world 
market without geographic, legal, or political barriers. These features in 
conjunction with innovative marketing strategies, should allow V.C.C., to 
quickly overcome its competition and become a world leader in its field. 

Background on Interactive Marketing Technologies 

Over the past several years new businesses that involve a small amount of 
interactive marketing have appeared. Some of the larger names are The Home 
Shopping Network and QVC (recently purchased by the Home shopping Network). 
Their primary medium for conducting business is through the use of television 
infomercials. This has been extraordinarily successful, to the point that the 
industry is now worth over five billion dollars. While this new interactive 
medium for conducting business has several serious advantages to traditional 
storefronts, it still has some drawbacks. One of the drawbacks being 
uni-directional communication. Customers cannot ask questions, causing them to 
feel helpless and as a result many "hits" do not "bite". Another drawback is 
that customers cannot choose what they would like to view, they must observe 
what is being displayed. This is the primary factor that renders the 
television medium useless for V.C.C.'s interactive marketing strategy

Introduction: The Virtual Storefront 

The interactive medium described above would do almost nothing for V.C.C. 
There is, however, a new interactive medium and it is developing at an 
exponential rate, most importantly it is already available for V.C.C.'s use. 
It is potentially the most prolific medium for conducting business, and as you 
might have guessed already dominated by speculators from the  Home Shopping 
Network. The greatest advantage to this medium is that it is bi-directional, 
making if the perfect medium for V.C.C. to reach the world.
The new medium is called the World Wide Web. The World Wide Web makes the 
traditional storefront obsolete. It is based upon a network of computers that 
operate around the world all the time and has grown at an exponential rate 
since its conception three years ago. When lumped together the distinct 
aspects of the internet are sometimes referred to as the information 
superhighway.

What Can the World Wide Web Do for V.C.C. ? 

Anyone with a computer can "log in" to the internet for the price of a local 
phone call anywhere in the world. Once they "log in" the customer merely types 
an address into a "dialog box" and hits the enter key. This brings the 
customer to the business interface of the company with which they desire to 
conduct business. At this point the customer can point and click with their 
mouse and view different products, actually listen to how they sound, and see 
how they look in better than photographic quality resolution. Then they can 
place an order instantaneously with their major credit card. That's it! If 
they have any questions they can merely click on a "button" with their mouse 
to start a conversation with a help assistant. The customer can do this any 
time of day, anywhere in the world, and do it all instantaneously. Setting up 
a "virtual storefront" costs a fraction of what its conventional counterpart 
costs, and with this investment comes access to the entire world market. Many 
internet enthusiasts speculate the conventional storefront and retail store 
will be all but obsolete in five to ten years. It may take a decade for this 
to happen because thus far there is no effective marketing strategy that will 
"open up" the virtual internet business interface sooner.

The Competition 

The largest virtual storefront in existence today is call the Internet 
Shopping Network. They are owned and operated by the Home Shopping Network. 
Their Chief Executive Marketing Manager, told me recently that any marketing 
strategy that would reduce his profit margin would not be feasible because his 
company operates on minimal margins. I found this "situation" to be true of 
all the firms that are currently major players in the virtual market.
I then decided that I would have to locate a company that possessed a highly 
developed infrastructure in terms of suppliers. One that offered a wide array 
of products, and also required minimal modifications to adapt to V.C.C.'s 
"virtual storefront". I located and researched a few different possibilities.

Why Not a Conventional "Virtual Business"? 

We decided not to go with a conventional virtual business because of the 
competitive difficulties. Right now the world wide web, which is the platform 
for running a virtual storefront is developing very quickly. This will lead 
many companies to "set up shop" and "fight it out" for market share. V.C.C. 
will sit strategically in a place all its own because of lower product price 
and novel marketing strategies.

Marketing strategy: How will V.C.C. beat the Competition? 

Running a company that does not make its money on profit margin, opens many 
new doors in terms of marketing. I have developed three distinct marketing 
strategies that when implemented will allow to V.C.C. realistically become a 
major player in the market within three to six months. Furthermore, these 
marketing strategies will "open up" the cyberspace business interface 
prematurely, with V.C.C. in the lead.

Direct Marketing Strategy 

We aim to direct market the virtual storefront through the use of diskettes 
which would be distributed free of charge to the many customers identified as 
being most interested in using the new sales method. When inserted into the 
customers computer the program on the diskette will take them on a "Virtual 
Tour" of V.C.C. Diskettes are an inexpensive form of direct marketing with 
serious ROI. Look at Prodigy and America on Line. This method of advertising 
is the only reason that they are still in business.

Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 

We Plan to give incentives such as reduced membership fees to students and 
faculty at major educational centers throughout the world, as long as those 
schools agree to position our franchise in their "visit" list. A visit list is 
a quick access list of sites to visit on the world wide web. Once a site is 
positioned on a quicklist, even the most inexperienced users can access it. It 
is important to note that students and educational institutions currently have 
free and easy access to the World Wide Web.

Franchising Marketing Strategy 

Not everybody has access to a computer today. Our franchising department will 
target those who cannot afford to purchase or just do not want to be bothered 
by purchasing and setting up their own computer. Franchises can be set up 
anywhere because V.C.C will be controlled from a central location. Since 
V.C.C. franchises will be controlled from a centralized location, the cost of 
a V.C.C. franchise is much lower than our conventional counterpart (only the 
price of an internet connection and a computer lab). Therefore V.C.C. 
franchisees will have an absolute advantage over their potential competitors, 
V.C.C also benefits from this advantage. The startup cost of a V.C.C. 
franchise is approximately $30.000, while its conventional counterpart's 
startup cost ranges from 100,000 to 118,500. This 70 to 88 thousand dollar 
difference in the cost of a franchise will give V.C.C. another advantage over 
its competitors.

More Compteition 

U.C.C. is the ideal candidate for V.C.C.'s purposes. U.C.C. is headquartered 
in Indiana. They are listed in the Million Dollar Directory as a private 
company, having one subsidiary known as the United Consumers Club Franchising. 
They have Sec Codes placing them in the mail order catalogue industry. The 
most interesting thing about the company is the way in which they make their 
profit. They do not make it on profit margin, but rather on a membership fee. 
After paying a one time membership fee, members are entitled to purchase all 
goods at cost for a year. The members can save thousands of dollars per year. 
The idea is simple: What would have been put into the pockets of the retail 
stores is instead put back into the pockets of the end consumers. Or as the 
founder James L. Gagen says "everybody wins" both the consumer, and the 
company. Eventually, U.C.C. got into the business of franchising. United 
Consumers Club made approximately 11 million dollars from the franchising 
corporation compared to 74 million from the parent company. Therefore, the 
industry is operating at roughly a hundred million dollars. As of yet there 
are no major competitors in UCC's field. One of the benefits of partnering 
with U.C.C. is that the merchandise is of high quality and customers get 
access to a complete line of manufactures goods. U.C.C.'s profit comes only 
>from  the membership fee, thus there is no incentive to sell inferior goods 
unlike Sam's Club which generates income from goods as well as a membership 
fee.

Note: This version of the cost analysis is a little underdeveloped. 

Cost Analysis 

World Wide Web Site Setup: 
ALR Q-4SMP Pentuim based Server--------------------------$Approx 25,000 f
Pentium Ported Unix software package------------------------$Approx 5,000 f
T-1 1.44 megabyte per second internet connection----------$Approx 1,000v,m
Hyper-Text-Markup-Language (HTML) Programmers-----$Approx 80,000 f
System Administrator (consultant)-------------------------------$Approx 20,000 
f
W.W.W. Domain Name Registration----------------------------$100 v,2-years
Allowance for unexpected and hidden startup costs----------$100,000 
Total Fixed and Variable Startup Costs--------------------------$231,100.00 

Direct Marketing Strategy 

Initial startup kit 
design----------------------------------------------$25,000 
Opportunity Cost on Initial Promotion-----------------------------$5/customer 
Midwestern CD-ROM duplication estimate 100,000 copies-------$74,300 
Allowance for unexpected and hidden costs-----------------------$50,000 
Total First-Run Direct Marketing Costs-----------------------------$149,300+5x 

Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 

E-mail Promotion Associates-----------------------------------------$40,000 
Opportunity 
Costs-------------------------------------------------------$50/customer 
Allowance for unexpected and hidden costs-----------------------$20,000 
Total Incentive Marketing Strategy Costs---------------------------$60,000+50x 

Franchising Dept. Marketing Costs 

Salaries, strategy, and 
supplies----------------------------------------$300,000 y
Year 1 Targets 
Direct Marketing Strategy 
3-6 months: distribute start-up media @ 100.00US per membership. Total 
Possible Revenue 9,500,000.00
Real Expected Revenue 80% 7,600,000.00 Minus fixed and Variable startup costs 
231,100.00 
Net Profit 7,368,900.00 
After First Pressing and distribution fixed costs are paid. 
6-12 months: two subsequent pressings @ 100.00US per membership 
Total Possible Revenue 19,000,000.00
Real Expected Revenue 80% 15,200,000.00 Minus Variable Costs 80,000.00 
Minus Allowance for unexpected/hidden costs 20,000.00 
Net Profit on second and third pressings 15,100,000.00 
Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 
3-12 months: Target and contact educational centers around the world.
Hire a full time staff member to do this @ 40,000 per year. 
Memberships sold at $50.00 each with student faculty discount. 
Break even point is 1,200 memberships sold in 1 year with 60,000 in costs.
Franchise Marketing Strategy 
9-12 months: Initiate Franchising Strategy.

Contact Information 

For further information contact Scott Peikin @ Diversenet by:
e-mail: scott@op.net 
speikin@lynx.dac.neu.edu 
http: www.op.net/~scott 
Phone: USA (610) 278-9888

So much for the middlemen world wide.

Some Other Projects.......

Contributions to Mail Services and Company from BD, your a good man BD. 

Mail Services and Company: Maximizing Case "A"

This is an interesting project, Basicly it revolves around Domain Names. For 
instance if your name is Stan and you are an automobile dealer, then you might 
want your e-mail address to be stan@automobiledealers.com Cool huh, So if you 
are the company that owns the rights to automobiledealers.com,then you can 
offer a service providing e-mail accounts for people in that industry. Also 
Domain names are the television stations of tomorrow. If you want to watch 
science fiction, you will probably turn you browser on www.sciencefiction.com, 
this will take you to the domain science fiction, based around the subject 
domain sciencefiction. Just as if you want to get todaysnews, you might http 
todaysnews.com, or if you want to listen to rock music, you might http 
classicrock, modernrock, or alternative rock based on your music preferences. 
This company will revolve around leasing domains from the internic based on 
the subject, then leasing them to people interested. 
Note: Registering some domains is a good way to start up a "small" business.

The Alternic. Minimizing Case "A"

Speaking of domians and dns and all of that good stuff. The internic is 
currently offering dns service for 100 dollars for the first two years and $50 
a year after that. To my knowledge they are registering about 10,000 a day. 
Times $100 a domain that isn't bad. This number is only going to increase. 
They are only offering dns service on a few extensions, like .com, .net, .org, 
etc. If you have a few bucks to invest I would recommend starting your own 
Alternic, offering domains that support special characters and multiple 
languages. In order for a domain to exist, it only has to have service 
provided for it. Providing dns is basicly spreading out fixed costs, and the 
product only exists in cyberspace. So there is a large gap in the cost/profit 
ratio. Some good ideas to provide dns on are taxicabs . with no extension, and 
of course multiple languages, to the best of my knowledge we don't live in a 
one language world. Also the .fam extension might be populair really soon 
because people will want to throw out their mail boxes. If I were a University 
trying to raise capitol to minimize educational costs I would go into this 
business. Students can run it. And after all it is an investment in the 
future.
The Govenrment will not like this, first because it will kill all profit 
margin for the internic registration services and open them up to a global 
economy competeing world wide prematuraly in their eyes. They have one major 
way to prevent this, which can also be prevented. This is to create dns 
jammers that jam all domains not registered with their "legitimate" 
registration services. There can only be a one domain of each kind matched up 
to each ip address world wide. So if they provide jamming services this will 
jam the "illegitimate" domains right off the network with a flood stream. It 
is important for people to design web browsers that filter out these jamming 
services, that will seriously reduce their impact and comprimise their upper 
case "A" abilities. Currently all domain are matched to an ip address. This 
actually maximizes profit even more because they charge companies for an ip 
address eventually this will be you telephone number as well. These ip address 
go like this 255.255.255.255 why they don't go to 999.999.999.999 is obviously 
to maximize profit by reducing the supply even more. Anything is possible and 
999.999.999.999 ip addresses are definitly a possibility. A company or 
schoolastic organizatoin merely has to develop software that will support 
this, and distribute it to then begin providing services on it. Interesting 
huh???? Another way around this is to make ip addresses alphanumeric to begin 
with, then that will eliminate the need for ip addresses to begin with. There 
are some other designs around this concept, let me know if you have millions 
to blow and want to sink the next biggest ship. 

my bigger nightmares, I think Phillip Zimmerman might agree............
It is possible to filter all e-mail and information through high speed filters 
that search for key information, because all data transfers pretty much go 
through the nick to begin with. The direct system overides the primary level 
of central control. 10 years from now data security isn't going to be what we 
think it is today, and if we are living in a placeblo to begin with, we don't 
have anything now. 

Taking out telecommunications and Cybercommunications (cybercomm) profit. 

Everyone has heard of the iphone right. Thats a package that costs about 100 
dollars to buy and lets you talk for free all over the world through the net. 
Being as ip addresses and domain names are the telephone numbers of the 
future, there is going to be serous amounts of profit by selling these 
packages.
Some of them work through the irc proticol and other proticols. The telephone 
companys want to make it so that every thing has to be standardized, 
eliminating a strategy that I have developed that will kill profit for 
telecommunications world wide. This is to make all packages free to end 
consumers, and make them compatable with let say for example windows NT 
plugins that act as the telecommunications server between two of the end 
consumer client applications. This will kill all profit for AT$T in terms of 
selling the client applications. It will also limit their ability to make you 
use their services as the relay server, because you can use a relay server all 
the way accross the world if you want to. Seriously increasing competition 
world wide. This is good for us the end consumers. If they still compalain 
that their stuff isn't compatable, then here you go. All the client apps will 
be standardized to receive calls. That way you can initiate a call with any 
server company and still have it completely compatable. This strategy will 
seriously decrease global communications costs and allow anyone to start a 
"mom and pop" business providing services. I reccomend educational 
universities provide these services to offset educational costs. 

Reducing Software Companies Profit world wide, minimizing software costs to 
everyone and putting more in the pocket of software designers.

This entails souping up an os like Linux to be a shell like windows Nt or 95 
or system 7, porting it to every platform and then setting up standards that 
software developers can conform to to make everything very compatable. Next 
software developers must form development guilds that are centralized around a 
co-op development type system. This will allow them to design software around 
their public domain oses. They can also charge much less to register the 
software, and becuase they have a serious direct interest in the "company" 
they will make the money that they are entitled to instead of being "forced" 
to give it up in the interest of the company they developed it for. 

NtP

You know you computer will be your tv soon. NTP (negeotiation transfer 
proticol might be the start) If anyone wants to design it let me know. 
Basicly you client automatically negotiates with the server root domain of a 
domain. That way if the domain is a ftp site it automatically default to the 
ftp proticol. And if the site you access by merely typing the domain name in 
the box is a tv station, then it automatically defaults to the video stream 
transfer proticol. Cool Huh????

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 
iQCVAwUBMgfNnX0gSutdP2LNAQEOBAP/aFg1dg18uQROWjQuX3wmepRkW2Ffm1pm 
u5zldT/qVX/Q86KkFkQOwICt5VjIhbAuHMqtZbXvmknf3IgpLoPoNJ1EQUORHj/h 
ZmPT6+AZzs2NRDWOwgahAF2uyY+rTA63yuEHtZninz5DoRtpMYsxIIMjU5w++l8c unsPPSkBdfU= 
=Z3eG -----END 



From dn@psi2.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:32 EDT 1996
Article: 1016 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.mid.net!news.dra.com!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!psinntp!gdls.com!pubxfer.news.psi.net!usenet
From: dn@psi2.com (Don Naumann)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: optics supplier
Date: 5 Aug 1996 16:25:53 GMT
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <4u57ah$6dp@client2.news.psi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.242.88.29
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

I am looking for several parabolic mirrors.  Any supplier 
recommendations?

Don Naumann
dn@psi2.com




From ReadMe@ReadMe.net Thu Aug 15 23:57:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1017 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: ReadMe@ReadMe.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Fast Easy Cash Legal!!!$$$$
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 03:43:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 157
Message-ID: <4uec6h$tk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sil-wa4-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08  8:44:17 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Hello Friends!
	
	Welcome to the world of Multi-Level Marketing (MLM). THIS IS NOT A
SCAM, it is an actual business opportunity. After spending hundreds of
dollars on get rich quick schemes and classified advertisements
selling my product, I realized that the ads were not paying off. That
was before I came across this amazing opportunity. I chose this MLM
plan because of the large diversity of products that can be offered,
plus the fact that it is inexpensive when compared to other plans. 
	What makes this plan legal, unlike many of the pyramid schemes that
are online, is that you are buying and selling an actual product, and
so is everybody else that decides to make money with this opportunity.
It is simple, you sell an original recipe, craft, poem, plan, or idea
through the mail for $2.00 (US Currency). It is easy with Multi-Level
Marketing. MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) IS BEING TAUGHT IN
HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL, AND BOTH STANFORD RESEARCH 
AND THE WALL STREET JOURNAL HAVE STATED THAT BETWEEN 
50% AND 55% OF ALL GOODS AND SERVICES WILL BE SOLD BY
MULTI-LEVEL METHODS IN THE MID 1990’S! This is truly a MULTI-BILLION
DOLLAR INDUSTRY! Of the 500,000 millionaires in the United States, 20%
have made their fortune in the last seven years using MLM. Even if you
just try this out of curiosity, be prepared for a flood of orders.

**IMPORTANT TAX INFORMATION: To ensure that you keep this legal and
honest, be certain to file a Schedule "C" Profit or Loss from business
or profession with your income tax return. Report all income you
receive and deduct all of your expenses that are related to this
business. Check with Your tax preparer to ensure that you are taking
all the legal deductions you can. Because you are buying and selling a
product or service, this type of direct marketing order is not in the
chain letter category. If no product or service is sold, then it does
become a chain letter, which would be in violation of the law.
	
	Here is what to do:
		
		1) Send $2.00 (US) and a Self-Addressed Stamped Envelope (SASE) to
each of the nine people on the list below (this is the important part,
if no one sends the money for the products, then this plan will not
work... KEEP IT HONEST.) Note: Be sure to either put the two dollars
in the SASE or wrap it separately in another sheet of paper, because
if it can be seen when the envelope is sealed, a postal worker may
steal it.

		2) Revise the list by placing your name in slot #9 and moving all the
others on the list up one number (move #2 to #1, and so on) drop the
current #1 from the list.

		3)Send the revised list and message out to as many people as 
possible, newsgroups, e-mail, even send it snail mail to friends. Try
to send at least 100.

		4)Soon you will start receiving orders. Simply stuff the SASEs with
you recipe(or whatever) and drop them in the mail box.

		5)Spend your the money that you received from each envelope on
whatever you want. Pay off bills (wouldn’t it be nice to get out of
debt?), buy new toys (a car maybe?), just have fun!

REMEMBER, THE PRIME FACTORS THAT MAKE THIS WORK FOR YOU ARE:

1)  HONESTY  - Sending the $2.00 (US) to the members listed below for
their products or recipes is what makes this work, they have worked
hard for this opportunity.

2) INTEGRITY - Fill all of your orders promptly, because this is a
legitimate business, and if you don’t, you can get nailed for false
advertising. You must deliver what your customers have paid for. 

3) ACTION - Begin right away so that you can start receiving the money
you deserve immediately!

START TODAY!!!!!

If you only send out 100 of the new messages, and only get a tiny 4%
response rate, then here is what will happen:

1) You send out 100 letters with your name in position 9

                  

2) Those                4 send out 100 letters with your name in
position 8                         16 Replies
3) Those              16 send out 100 letters with your name in
position 7                         64 Replies
4) Those              64 send out 100 letters with your name in
position 6                       256 Replies
5) Those            256 send out 100 letters with your name in
position 5                    1,024 Replies
6) Those         1,024 send out 100 letters with your name in position
4                    4,096 Replies
7) Those         4,096 send out 100 letters with your name in position
3                  16,384 Replies
8) Those       16,384 send out 100 letters with your name in position
2                  65,536 Replies
9) Those       65,536 send out 100 letters with your name in position
1                262,144 Replies
						    TOTAL REPLIES                349,524
				        TOTAL SALES @ $2.00 EACH              $699,048


OK HERE IS THE LIST:

1) HCG
    P.O. Box 163
    Oakdale, NY 11769
    Lox Cream Cheese

2) Amazon Discovery
    3171 East 33rd SO
    Bldg. 188
    Salt Lake City, UT 84109

3) Armondo’s
    2821 East 3100 South
    Salt Lake City, UT 84109
    Anchovy-Garlic Lovers Dip

4) ML Ulrich
    64 Rainier Ave. S. #D BOX 31
    Renton, WA 98055
    Bush Baby Salad

5) Schroeder
    2112 E. Breckenridge PL.
    Springfield, MO 65804
    Tangy Buffalo Wings

6) C.L.S Publications
    3020 S. National #151
    Springfield, MO 65804
    Fat Free French Fries

7) J. McCormick
    P.O. Box 274
    Gradyville, PA 19039
    Awesome Sangria

8) Michaels Publications
    10512 Rustic Rd. So.
    Seattle, WA. 98178
    Smoked Salmon Quiche

9) J. Daniels
    10108 Fairview Blvd. SW
    Port Orchard,. WA 98367
    Baba Gannoj Dip
 
**IMPORTANT TAX INFORMATION: To ensure that you keep this legal and
honest, be certain to file a Schedule "C" Profit or Loss from business
or profession with your income tax return. Report all income you
receive and deduct all of your expenses that are related to this
business. Check with Your tax preparer to ensure that you are taking
all the legal deductions you can. Because you are buying and selling a
product or service, this type of direct marketing order is not in the
chain letter category. If no product or service is sold, then it does
become a chain letter, which would be in violation of the law.



From jamesfdean@aol.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:35 EDT 1996
Article: 1018 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: jamesfdean@aol.com (JamesFDean)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar cells?
Date: 10 Aug 1996 20:23:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4uj957$rfr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: jamesfdean@aol.com (JamesFDean)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

This is not exactly a solar thermal topic but, does anyone know a source
for individual solar cells that can be assembled to create panels of
varing power?
I live out and off the grid so to speak and I need power supplies around
my property.  I presently run my yurt (TV, Phone, computer, ect.) with
four K-51 panels and would like to afford more of them, but that's not the
case. I heard that panel companies scrap or salvage cells that don't meet
certain specks and, being a person who believes in living off of others
trash, would love to get a hold of them. should I try to contact the panel
companies directly or just go and dig through their trash? I am not
opposed to the latter.
thanks for any suggestions.
jd
jamesfdean@aol.com


From tomtdl@execpc.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1019 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!newspump.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!usenet
From: Tom Leit <tomtdl@execpc.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Source for Glycol ?
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:39:07 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC BBS - Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>
Reply-To: tomtdl@execpc.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: beagle.execpc.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (Win95; I)

I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
house in Wisconsin.  We bought the house but got no information on
the system which is probably about 10 years old now.  The pump went out
and replacing it caused us to lose most of the liquid in the heat
exchanger loop.  Can anybody help?
E-mail any information to   tomtdl@execpc.com
Thank You    Tom Leit


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug 15 23:57:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1020 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 12 Aug 1996 05:07:19 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4ums87$81g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Tom Leit  <tomtdl@execpc.com> wrote:

>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol...

Try asking someone at a food processing plant. I used to get 40 plastic
55 gallon drums per month from a local turkey packing plant, and about half
of them used to contain this "edible antifreeze."

Nick



From ahaffner@aft.sn.no Thu Aug 15 23:57:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1021 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!gatech!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!oslonett.no!sn.no!usenet
From: ahaffner@aft.sn.no (Andreas Haffner)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:42:00 GMT
Organization: (private)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4untu0$2ct@hasle.sn.no>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nm10-7.ppp.sn.no
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Tom Leit <tomtdl@execpc.com> wrote:

>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol....

I might be wrong, but isn't this just the stuff being used to prevent your car
engine cooling fluid to freeze?




Andreas Haffner

---------------------------------------------
This is my own opinion!.......?.......I think
Homepage..........http://home.sn.no/~ahaffner



From adeck@ultranet.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:39 EDT 1996
Article: 1022 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!Vortex!adeck
From: adeck@ultranet.com (Grumpy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die,alt.electronics.analog.vlsi,alt.winsock.voice,alt.mining.recreational,alt.chinese.fengshui,alt.sci.time-travel,alt.fan.kevin-mitnick,alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup,alt.solar.thermal,alt.music.harry-chapin,alt.sp
Subject: Re: Tomorrow
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 23:18:58 LOCAL
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 385
Message-ID: <adeck.257.00534578@ultranet.com>
References: <4u9pfu$qqm@picasso.op.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d6.nbd.ma.ultra.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die:6 alt.electronics.analog.vlsi:5 alt.winsock.voice:558 alt.chinese.fengshui:769 alt.sci.time-travel:6257 alt.fan.kevin-mitnick:626 alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup:3121 alt.solar.thermal:1022 alt.music.harry-chapin:1755

In article <4u9pfu$qqm@picasso.op.net> Scott@Op.Net (Scott Peikin) writes:
>From: Scott@Op.Net (Scott Peikin)
>Subject: Tomorrow
>Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 09:59:33 GMT

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>Note: Please Copy this file, as its contents, if they ever get out world wide 
>will seriously impact the global economy as we know it. Reducing profit to 
>companies and giving people world wide about 60% more buying power. 
>Governments will try to repress this information. It directly targets the 
>largest companies and profitable organizations and if any of these designs are 
>implemented, those companies are going to be crucified. If you see it get 
>pulled, please repost it to every news group in the world. Over and Over 
>again. And Mail it to all of your friends. The first challenge is to see how 
>powerful the net really is.
>thanks, Scott@Op.Net

>Tomorrow.......... 

>V.C.C. 

>Written and developed by Scott Peikin of DiverseNet Inc. Serious contributions 
>to Vcc from K.

>Table of Contents 
>Aim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3
>Background on Interactive Marketing Technologies ---------- 4
>Introduction: The Virtual Storefront ------------------------------ 5
>What Can the World Wide Web Do for V.C.C. ---------------- 6
>The Competition ------------------------------------------------------ 7
>Why not a Conventional "Virtual Business" -------------------- 8
>Marketing Strategy: How will V.C.C. beat the competition -- 8
>The United Consumers Club --------------------------------------- 11
>Cost Analysis----------------------------------------------------------- 12
>Year 1 Targets-----------------------------------------------------------14 
>Contact Information----------------------------------------------------16 

> Aim: To create a "new" business the Virtual Consumers Club or V.C.C. which is 
>a virtual storefront on what is commonly referred to as the information 
>superhighway. It will be supported by the infrastructure of an existing 
>"suitable" company such as U.C.C. V.C.C. will have distinct advantages over 
>competitors. Profit will derive from a membership fee, not on profit margin, 
>which is the way that most other virtual storefronts generate income. 
>Operating costs will be minimal (without the overhead of the traditional 
>storefront), and most important, there will be complete access to the world 
>market without geographic, legal, or political barriers. These features in 
>conjunction with innovative marketing strategies, should allow V.C.C., to 
>quickly overcome its competition and become a world leader in its field. 

>Background on Interactive Marketing Technologies 

>Over the past several years new businesses that involve a small amount of 
>interactive marketing have appeared. Some of the larger names are The Home 
>Shopping Network and QVC (recently purchased by the Home shopping Network). 
>Their primary medium for conducting business is through the use of television 
>infomercials. This has been extraordinarily successful, to the point that the 
>industry is now worth over five billion dollars. While this new interactive 
>medium for conducting business has several serious advantages to traditional 
>storefronts, it still has some drawbacks. One of the drawbacks being 
>uni-directional communication. Customers cannot ask questions, causing them to 
>feel helpless and as a result many "hits" do not "bite". Another drawback is 
>that customers cannot choose what they would like to view, they must observe 
>what is being displayed. This is the primary factor that renders the 
>television medium useless for V.C.C.'s interactive marketing strategy

>Introduction: The Virtual Storefront 

>The interactive medium described above would do almost nothing for V.C.C. 
>There is, however, a new interactive medium and it is developing at an 
>exponential rate, most importantly it is already available for V.C.C.'s use. 
>It is potentially the most prolific medium for conducting business, and as you 
>might have guessed already dominated by speculators from the  Home Shopping 
>Network. The greatest advantage to this medium is that it is bi-directional, 
>making if the perfect medium for V.C.C. to reach the world.
>The new medium is called the World Wide Web. The World Wide Web makes the 
>traditional storefront obsolete. It is based upon a network of computers that 
>operate around the world all the time and has grown at an exponential rate 
>since its conception three years ago. When lumped together the distinct 
>aspects of the internet are sometimes referred to as the information 
>superhighway.

>What Can the World Wide Web Do for V.C.C. ? 

>Anyone with a computer can "log in" to the internet for the price of a local 
>phone call anywhere in the world. Once they "log in" the customer merely types 
>an address into a "dialog box" and hits the enter key. This brings the 
>customer to the business interface of the company with which they desire to 
>conduct business. At this point the customer can point and click with their 
>mouse and view different products, actually listen to how they sound, and see 
>how they look in better than photographic quality resolution. Then they can 
>place an order instantaneously with their major credit card. That's it! If 
>they have any questions they can merely click on a "button" with their mouse 
>to start a conversation with a help assistant. The customer can do this any 
>time of day, anywhere in the world, and do it all instantaneously. Setting up 
>a "virtual storefront" costs a fraction of what its conventional counterpart 
>costs, and with this investment comes access to the entire world market. Many 
>internet enthusiasts speculate the conventional storefront and retail store 
>will be all but obsolete in five to ten years. It may take a decade for this 
>to happen because thus far there is no effective marketing strategy that will 
>"open up" the virtual internet business interface sooner.

>The Competition 

>The largest virtual storefront in existence today is call the Internet 
>Shopping Network. They are owned and operated by the Home Shopping Network. 
>Their Chief Executive Marketing Manager, told me recently that any marketing 
>strategy that would reduce his profit margin would not be feasible because his 
>company operates on minimal margins. I found this "situation" to be true of 
>all the firms that are currently major players in the virtual market.
>I then decided that I would have to locate a company that possessed a highly 
>developed infrastructure in terms of suppliers. One that offered a wide array 
>of products, and also required minimal modifications to adapt to V.C.C.'s 
>"virtual storefront". I located and researched a few different possibilities.

>Why Not a Conventional "Virtual Business"? 

>We decided not to go with a conventional virtual business because of the 
>competitive difficulties. Right now the world wide web, which is the platform 
>for running a virtual storefront is developing very quickly. This will lead 
>many companies to "set up shop" and "fight it out" for market share. V.C.C. 
>will sit strategically in a place all its own because of lower product price 
>and novel marketing strategies.

>Marketing strategy: How will V.C.C. beat the Competition? 

>Running a company that does not make its money on profit margin, opens many 
>new doors in terms of marketing. I have developed three distinct marketing 
>strategies that when implemented will allow to V.C.C. realistically become a 
>major player in the market within three to six months. Furthermore, these 
>marketing strategies will "open up" the cyberspace business interface 
>prematurely, with V.C.C. in the lead.

>Direct Marketing Strategy 

>We aim to direct market the virtual storefront through the use of diskettes 
>which would be distributed free of charge to the many customers identified as 
>being most interested in using the new sales method. When inserted into the 
>customers computer the program on the diskette will take them on a "Virtual 
>Tour" of V.C.C. Diskettes are an inexpensive form of direct marketing with 
>serious ROI. Look at Prodigy and America on Line. This method of advertising 
>is the only reason that they are still in business.

>Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 

>We Plan to give incentives such as reduced membership fees to students and 
>faculty at major educational centers throughout the world, as long as those 
>schools agree to position our franchise in their "visit" list. A visit list is 
>a quick access list of sites to visit on the world wide web. Once a site is 
>positioned on a quicklist, even the most inexperienced users can access it. It 
>is important to note that students and educational institutions currently have 
>free and easy access to the World Wide Web.

>Franchising Marketing Strategy 

>Not everybody has access to a computer today. Our franchising department will 
>target those who cannot afford to purchase or just do not want to be bothered 
>by purchasing and setting up their own computer. Franchises can be set up 
>anywhere because V.C.C will be controlled from a central location. Since 
>V.C.C. franchises will be controlled from a centralized location, the cost of 
>a V.C.C. franchise is much lower than our conventional counterpart (only the 
>price of an internet connection and a computer lab). Therefore V.C.C. 
>franchisees will have an absolute advantage over their potential competitors, 
>V.C.C also benefits from this advantage. The startup cost of a V.C.C. 
>franchise is approximately $30.000, while its conventional counterpart's 
>startup cost ranges from 100,000 to 118,500. This 70 to 88 thousand dollar 
>difference in the cost of a franchise will give V.C.C. another advantage over 
>its competitors.

>More Compteition 

>U.C.C. is the ideal candidate for V.C.C.'s purposes. U.C.C. is headquartered 
>in Indiana. They are listed in the Million Dollar Directory as a private 
>company, having one subsidiary known as the United Consumers Club Franchising. 
>They have Sec Codes placing them in the mail order catalogue industry. The 
>most interesting thing about the company is the way in which they make their 
>profit. They do not make it on profit margin, but rather on a membership fee. 
>After paying a one time membership fee, members are entitled to purchase all 
>goods at cost for a year. The members can save thousands of dollars per year. 
>The idea is simple: What would have been put into the pockets of the retail 
>stores is instead put back into the pockets of the end consumers. Or as the 
>founder James L. Gagen says "everybody wins" both the consumer, and the 
>company. Eventually, U.C.C. got into the business of franchising. United 
>Consumers Club made approximately 11 million dollars from the franchising 
>corporation compared to 74 million from the parent company. Therefore, the 
>industry is operating at roughly a hundred million dollars. As of yet there 
>are no major competitors in UCC's field. One of the benefits of partnering 
>with U.C.C. is that the merchandise is of high quality and customers get 
>access to a complete line of manufactures goods. U.C.C.'s profit comes only 
>from the membership fee, thus there is no incentive to sell inferior goods 
>unlike Sam's Club which generates income from goods as well as a membership 
>fee.

>Note: This version of the cost analysis is a little underdeveloped. 

>Cost Analysis 

>World Wide Web Site Setup: 
>ALR Q-4SMP Pentuim based Server--------------------------$Approx 25,000 f
>Pentium Ported Unix software package------------------------$Approx 5,000 f
>T-1 1.44 megabyte per second internet connection----------$Approx 1,000v,m
>Hyper-Text-Markup-Language (HTML) Programmers-----$Approx 80,000 f
>System Administrator (consultant)-------------------------------$Approx 20,000 
>f
>W.W.W. Domain Name Registration----------------------------$100 v,2-years
>Allowance for unexpected and hidden startup costs----------$100,000 
>Total Fixed and Variable Startup Costs--------------------------$231,100.00 

>Direct Marketing Strategy 

>Initial startup kit 
>design----------------------------------------------$25,000 
>Opportunity Cost on Initial Promotion-----------------------------$5/customer 
>Midwestern CD-ROM duplication estimate 100,000 copies-------$74,300 
>Allowance for unexpected and hidden costs-----------------------$50,000 
>Total First-Run Direct Marketing Costs-----------------------------$149,300+5x 

>Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 

>E-mail Promotion Associates-----------------------------------------$40,000 
>Opportunity 
>Costs-------------------------------------------------------$50/customer 
>Allowance for unexpected and hidden costs-----------------------$20,000 
>Total Incentive Marketing Strategy Costs---------------------------$60,000+50x 

>Franchising Dept. Marketing Costs 

>Salaries, strategy, and 
>supplies----------------------------------------$300,000 y
>Year 1 Targets 
>Direct Marketing Strategy 
>3-6 months: distribute start-up media @ 100.00US per membership. Total 
>Possible Revenue 9,500,000.00
>Real Expected Revenue 80% 7,600,000.00 Minus fixed and Variable startup costs 
>231,100.00 
>Net Profit 7,368,900.00 
>After First Pressing and distribution fixed costs are paid. 
>6-12 months: two subsequent pressings @ 100.00US per membership 
>Total Possible Revenue 19,000,000.00
>Real Expected Revenue 80% 15,200,000.00 Minus Variable Costs 80,000.00 
>Minus Allowance for unexpected/hidden costs 20,000.00 
>Net Profit on second and third pressings 15,100,000.00 
>Incentive Based Marketing Strategy 
>3-12 months: Target and contact educational centers around the world.
>Hire a full time staff member to do this @ 40,000 per year. 
>Memberships sold at $50.00 each with student faculty discount. 
>Break even point is 1,200 memberships sold in 1 year with 60,000 in costs.
>Franchise Marketing Strategy 
>9-12 months: Initiate Franchising Strategy.

>Contact Information 

>For further information contact Scott Peikin @ Diversenet by:
>e-mail: scott@op.net 
>speikin@lynx.dac.neu.edu 
>http: www.op.net/~scott 
>Phone: USA (610) 278-9888

>So much for the middlemen world wide.

>Some Other Projects.......

>Contributions to Mail Services and Company from BD, your a good man BD. 

>Mail Services and Company: Maximizing Case "A"

>This is an interesting project, Basicly it revolves around Domain Names. For 
>instance if your name is Stan and you are an automobile dealer, then you might 
>want your e-mail address to be stan@automobiledealers.com Cool huh, So if you 
>are the company that owns the rights to automobiledealers.com,then you can 
>offer a service providing e-mail accounts for people in that industry. Also 
>Domain names are the television stations of tomorrow. If you want to watch 
>science fiction, you will probably turn you browser on www.sciencefiction.com, 
>this will take you to the domain science fiction, based around the subject 
>domain sciencefiction. Just as if you want to get todaysnews, you might http 
>todaysnews.com, or if you want to listen to rock music, you might http 
>classicrock, modernrock, or alternative rock based on your music preferences. 
>This company will revolve around leasing domains from the internic based on 
>the subject, then leasing them to people interested. 
>Note: Registering some domains is a good way to start up a "small" business.

>The Alternic. Minimizing Case "A"

>Speaking of domians and dns and all of that good stuff. The internic is 
>currently offering dns service for 100 dollars for the first two years and $50 
>a year after that. To my knowledge they are registering about 10,000 a day. 
>Times $100 a domain that isn't bad. This number is only going to increase. 
>They are only offering dns service on a few extensions, like .com, .net, .org, 
>etc. If you have a few bucks to invest I would recommend starting your own 
>Alternic, offering domains that support special characters and multiple 
>languages. In order for a domain to exist, it only has to have service 
>provided for it. Providing dns is basicly spreading out fixed costs, and the 
>product only exists in cyberspace. So there is a large gap in the cost/profit 
>ratio. Some good ideas to provide dns on are taxicabs . with no extension, and 
>of course multiple languages, to the best of my knowledge we don't live in a 
>one language world. Also the .fam extension might be populair really soon 
>because people will want to throw out their mail boxes. If I were a University 
>trying to raise capitol to minimize educational costs I would go into this 
>business. Students can run it. And after all it is an investment in the 
>future.
>The Govenrment will not like this, first because it will kill all profit 
>margin for the internic registration services and open them up to a global 
>economy competeing world wide prematuraly in their eyes. They have one major 
>way to prevent this, which can also be prevented. This is to create dns 
>jammers that jam all domains not registered with their "legitimate" 
>registration services. There can only be a one domain of each kind matched up 
>to each ip address world wide. So if they provide jamming services this will 
>jam the "illegitimate" domains right off the network with a flood stream. It 
>is important for people to design web browsers that filter out these jamming 
>services, that will seriously reduce their impact and comprimise their upper 
>case "A" abilities. Currently all domain are matched to an ip address. This 
>actually maximizes profit even more because they charge companies for an ip 
>address eventually this will be you telephone number as well. These ip address 
>go like this 255.255.255.255 why they don't go to 999.999.999.999 is obviously 
>to maximize profit by reducing the supply even more. Anything is possible and 
>999.999.999.999 ip addresses are definitly a possibility. A company or 
>schoolastic organizatoin merely has to develop software that will support 
>this, and distribute it to then begin providing services on it. Interesting 
>huh???? Another way around this is to make ip addresses alphanumeric to begin 
>with, then that will eliminate the need for ip addresses to begin with. There 
>are some other designs around this concept, let me know if you have millions 
>to blow and want to sink the next biggest ship. 

>my bigger nightmares, I think Phillip Zimmerman might agree............
>It is possible to filter all e-mail and information through high speed filters 
>that search for key information, because all data transfers pretty much go 
>through the nick to begin with. The direct system overides the primary level 
>of central control. 10 years from now data security isn't going to be what we 
>think it is today, and if we are living in a placeblo to begin with, we don't 
>have anything now. 

>Taking out telecommunications and Cybercommunications (cybercomm) profit. 

>Everyone has heard of the iphone right. Thats a package that costs about 100 
>dollars to buy and lets you talk for free all over the world through the net. 
>Being as ip addresses and domain names are the telephone numbers of the 
>future, there is going to be serous amounts of profit by selling these 
>packages.
>Some of them work through the irc proticol and other proticols. The telephone 
>companys want to make it so that every thing has to be standardized, 
>eliminating a strategy that I have developed that will kill profit for 
>telecommunications world wide. This is to make all packages free to end 
>consumers, and make them compatable with let say for example windows NT 
>plugins that act as the telecommunications server between two of the end 
>consumer client applications. This will kill all profit for AT$T in terms of 
>selling the client applications. It will also limit their ability to make you 
>use their services as the relay server, because you can use a relay server all 
>the way accross the world if you want to. Seriously increasing competition 
>world wide. This is good for us the end consumers. If they still compalain 
>that their stuff isn't compatable, then here you go. All the client apps will 
>be standardized to receive calls. That way you can initiate a call with any 
>server company and still have it completely compatable. This strategy will 
>seriously decrease global communications costs and allow anyone to start a 
>"mom and pop" business providing services. I reccomend educational 
>universities provide these services to offset educational costs. 

>Reducing Software Companies Profit world wide, minimizing software costs to 
>everyone and putting more in the pocket of software designers.

>This entails souping up an os like Linux to be a shell like windows Nt or 95 
>or system 7, porting it to every platform and then setting up standards that 
>software developers can conform to to make everything very compatable. Next 
>software developers must form development guilds that are centralized around a 
>co-op development type system. This will allow them to design software around 
>their public domain oses. They can also charge much less to register the 
>software, and becuase they have a serious direct interest in the "company" 
>they will make the money that they are entitled to instead of being "forced" 
>to give it up in the interest of the company they developed it for. 

>NtP

>You know you computer will be your tv soon. NTP (negeotiation transfer 
>proticol might be the start) If anyone wants to design it let me know. 
>Basicly you client automatically negotiates with the server root domain of a 
>domain. That way if the domain is a ftp site it automatically default to the 
>ftp proticol. And if the site you access by merely typing the domain name in 
>the box is a tv station, then it automatically defaults to the video stream 
>transfer proticol. Cool Huh????

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 
>iQCVAwUBMgfNnX0gSutdP2LNAQEOBAP/aFg1dg18uQROWjQuX3wmepRkW2Ffm1pm 
>u5zldT/qVX/Q86KkFkQOwICt5VjIhbAuHMqtZbXvmknf3IgpLoPoNJ1EQUORHj/h 
>ZmPT6+AZzs2NRDWOwgahAF2uyY+rTA63yuEHtZninz5DoRtpMYsxIIMjU5w++l8c unsPPSkBdfU= 
>=Z3eG -----END 




From lloeb@igc.apc.org Thu Aug 15 23:57:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1023 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: October Photovoltaic Workshop, Woodstock, NY
Date: 13 Aug 1996 06:52:21 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <4up8n5$8k@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp28.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

A Photovoltaic Design and Installation Workshop will be held near 
Woodstock, NY, October 14 - 19. Offered by Solar Energy International 
(SEI) as part of their 1996 RENEWABLE ENERGY EDUCATION PROGRAM (REEP), 
the workshop will teach you how to use solar energy to produce your own 
electricity through practical design and installation of photovoltaic 
(PV) systems.

Participants in the PV Design & Installation workshop learn how to use PV 
(photovoltaic) technology to produce their own electricity from the sun 
through practical design and installation of PV systems.  Participants 
learn system sizing, site analysis, hardware specification and component 
selection.

The workshop covers typical applications and case study examples.  
Participants will install an operational system in the field and learn 
the proper use of tools and safety precautions.  This workshop is for the 
beginner who wants to use PV, owner-builders, people seeking careers as 
solar professionals or seeking employment in the solar industry, and 
people wanting to work in developing countries.

Topics Include:

* Basics of Electricity            
* Solar Site Analysis             
* Stand-Alone Applications
* PV System Components            
* Energy Efficient Appliances     
* Component Specification         
* Safety Procedures & Code

Other Activities Include:

* Tours of PV Residences 
* Laboratory Exercises
* Hands-on Installation

The workshop will be held from 9 am to 5 pm daily October 14 - 19.  The 
all-inclusive fee is $550.  For logistics and more information, call the 
workshop co-sponsor, Sun Mountain, at 914-657-8096.  

For general information and registration, contact:

Solar Energy International
PO Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623-0715
Tel: (970) 963-8855
FAX: (970) 963-8866
E-mail: sei@solarenergy.org
http://www.crest.org/renewables/sei/

SEI is a non-profit 501(c)3 educational organization whose mission is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energies through education and 
technical assistance.




From lloeb@igc.apc.org Thu Aug 15 23:57:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1024 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: November Photovoltaic Workshop, Tucson, AZ
Date: 13 Aug 1996 06:53:32 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4up8pc$8k@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp28.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

A Photovoltaic Design and Installation Workshop will be held in Tucson, 
AZ November 4 - 9. Offered by Solar Energy International (SEI) as part of 
their 1996 RENEWABLE ENERGY EDUCATION PROGRAM (REEP), the workshop will 
teach you how to use solar energy to produce your own electricity through 
practical design and installation of photovoltaic (PV) systems.

Participants in the PV Design & Installation workshop learn how to use PV 
(photovoltaic) technology to produce their own electricity from the sun 
through practical design and installation of PV systems.  Participants 
learn system sizing, site analysis, hardware specification and component 
selection.

The workshop covers typical applications and case study examples.  
Participants will install an operational system in the field and learn 
the proper use of tools and safety precautions.  This workshop is for the 
beginner who wants to use PV, owner-builders, people seeking careers as 
solar professionals or seeking employment in the solar industry, and 
people wanting to work in developing countries.

Topics Include:

* Basics of Electricity            
* Solar Site Analysis             
* Stand-Alone Applications
* PV System Components            
* Energy Efficient Appliances     
* Component Specification         
* Safety Procedures & Code

Other Activities Include:

* Tours of PV Residences 
* Laboratory Exercises
* Hands-on Installation

The workshop will be held from 9 am to 5 pm daily, November 4 - 9, at the 
Cooper Environmental Science Center in Tucson.  The all-inclusive fee is 
$500 and includes lodging.  Over the last three years SEI has 
participated in yearly workshops aimed at taking the Cooper campus "off 
the grid."  By the end of this workshop, CESC will be completely solar 
powered.

Lodging will be on the site in cabins which accommodate 12 people.  
Bedding is not included, so participants should bring their own sleeping 
bag, sheets, blanket, etc.  Participants will be installing solar systems 
on cabins in which they are staying.  Water, electricity and kitchen 
facilities are available.

Lodging at CESC is optional.  If you prefer to stay at another location, 
please make your own arrangements, and let us know that you won't be 
staying in the provided lodging. 

CESC, surrounded by Saguaro cactus, is nestled in the mountains of 
Tucson. In November day-time temperatures range from 65 to 70 degrees 
Farenheit, with cool evenings.  Escape the early wet winter chills and 
join us for a fantastic learning experience in sunny Arizona!

For general information and registration, contact:

Solar Energy International
PO Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623-0715
Tel: (970) 963-8855
FAX: (970) 963-8866
E-mail: sei@solarenergy.org
http://www.crest.org/renewables/sei/

SEI is a non-profit 501(c)3 educational organization whose mission is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energies through education and 
technical assistance.




From redrok@pclink.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:42 EDT 1996
Article: 1025 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Message-ID: <3210931C.72EF@pclink.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:37:16 -0700
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4untu0$2ct@hasle.sn.no>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 36

Andreas Haffner wrote:
> 
> Tom Leit <tomtdl@execpc.com> wrote:
> 
> >I am looking for a source for propylene glycol....
> 
> I might be wrong, but isn't this just the stuff being used to 
> prevent your car engine cooling fluid to freeze?

Generally auto antifreeze is ethyline glycol. 

There has been recently some environmentally friendly auto 
antifreezes that are based on propylene glycol. These are
less poisenous.

All auto antifreezes have leak inhibiters and anticorosion 
compounds. They are generally mixed 50/50 by volume with water.

Another antifreeze is the stuff that is put in recreational 
vehicles. I think this is somewhat diluted as it is used without
mixing.

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From mccurdy@me.queensu.ca Thu Aug 15 23:57:43 EDT 1996
Article: 1026 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!kone!news.ccs.queensu.ca!news
From: mccurdy@me.queensu.ca (G McCurdy)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 13 Aug 1996 13:44:47 GMT
Organization: Solar Calorimetry Lab
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4uq0sf$jli@knot.queensu.ca>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wolf.me.queensu.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

In article <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>, tomtdl@execpc.com says...
>
>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
>heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
>house in Wisconsin.  We bought the house but got no information on
>the system which is probably about 10 years old now.  The pump went out
>and replacing it caused us to lose most of the liquid in the heat
>exchanger loop.  Can anybody help?
>E-mail any information to   tomtdl@execpc.com
>Thank You    Tom Leit
Tom,
  Propylene Glycol should be readily available from a local industrial 
chemical supplier.  Particularly DOW chemicals sells propylene glycol under 
the name of DOWFROST and DOWTHERM HD.  Van Waters & Rogers in Canada is a 
good supplier.
  Try looking for DOW chemicals in your local listing or other industrial 
chemical suppliers.  If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 
cheap automotive radiator fluid, its basically the same stuff, although the 
DOWTHERM chemicals operate slightly better in the temperature region that the 
solar system uses.

Hope this helps

Glen McCurdy
Solar Calorimetry Laboratory
Queen's University
mccurdy@me.queensu.ca



From koster@ecn.nl Thu Aug 15 23:57:44 EDT 1996
Article: 1027 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!ecnits.ecn.nl!usenet
From: koster@ecn.nl (koster)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: PV performance presentation
Date: 14 Aug 1996 07:49:33 GMT
Organization: Netherlands Energy Research Foundation ECN
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <4us0ed$2ft@ecnits.ecn.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ecp562.ecn.nl
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

Dear reader,

I have a few questions about how the result off PV-systems are presented
in the US. 
1.  is there a standard monitoring method in the US
2.  is there a big database with all the monitoring data from all the
    PV-systems in the US
3.  what kind off graphs are generated in the US.
4.  Are the therm Performance Ratio, reference yield, capture losses etc
    known in the US.

I would be grateful if somebody can give me some information.

Greatings,

Erik Koster


From redrok@pclink.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1028 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: El Cheapo Passive Solar Tracker
Message-ID: <3211F7E1.23AB@pclink.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:59:29 -0700
References: <anvil-1408961028420001@news.iap.net.au>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25

Hi Colin;

Colin Morton wrote:
> Can any one help?
> El Cheapo Passive Solar Tracker
> by Maurice W. Wick

Yea. Try this:

http://www.netins.net/showcase/bigdog/elcheapo.html

--
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From pes@netnet.net Thu Aug 15 23:57:47 EDT 1996
Article: 1029 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news
From: Laurie Neverman <pes@netnet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:31:26 -0700
Organization: Public Energy Systems
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3211FF5E.20D4@netnet.net>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4untu0$2ct@hasle.sn.no> <3210931C.72EF@pclink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.70.72.60
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I)

Duane C. Johnson wrote:
> 
> Andreas Haffner wrote:
> >
> > Tom Leit <tomtdl@execpc.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I am looking for a source for propylene glycol....
> >How much propylene glycol do you need?  We've got about 20,000 gallons 
available for sale from the Packerland Solar System.

Email or call for more information.
-- 
********************************************************************
Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
email:  pes@netnet.net       URL:  http://netnet.net/~pes/
voice:  414-465-6563         fax:  414-465-9894
********************************************************************
Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology


From doveknives@aol.com Thu Aug 15 23:57:48 EDT 1996
Article: 1030 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: doveknives@aol.com (Doveknives)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar housing
Date: 14 Aug 1996 14:05:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4ut4gs$p82@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: doveknives@aol.com (Doveknives)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I am very interested in the Earth Ship or burm/underground housing ideas
and want to learn more about these.  It is my goal to live free of grid
for the electric needs of my house and possibly my machine/blacksmithing
shop.  Hope to move from a small town on the Colorado plains, where I run
my business, into the country to become more self-sufficient in general. I
you have any advice in these matters, I would greatly appreciate your
imput.  Have been reading Home Power magazine and find it very helpful. 
If you know of other publications, please advise.  

Thanks, S.R.


From mccurdy@me.queensu.ca Thu Aug 15 23:57:50 EDT 1996
Article: 1031 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!kone!news.ccs.queensu.ca!news
From: mccurdy@me.queensu.ca (G McCurdy)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol -followup
Date: 14 Aug 1996 20:19:56 GMT
Organization: Solar Calorimetry Lab
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4utcdc$l09@knot.queensu.ca>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4ums87$81g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wolf.me.queensu.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

In article <4ums87$81g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu says...
>
>Tom Leit  <tomtdl@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol...
>
>Try asking someone at a food processing plant. I used to get 40 plastic
>55 gallon drums per month from a local turkey packing plant, and about half
>of them used to contain this "edible antifreeze."
>
>Nick
I just double checked on a few details which I missed in my previous post 
which are kind of important.  First, the DOW propolene glycol for use in 
solar hot water systems (among other things) is sold under the brand 
name of DOWFROST HD.
  Second, avoid using automobile radiator fluid if at all possible.  Most 
anti-freeze is ETHELYNE glycol not PROPYLENE glycol.  The important 
difference is that propylene glycol is relatively non-toxic where ethylene 
is very toxic.

Sorry if this caused any confusion...
Glen McCurdy



From minion@flood.xnet.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:01 EDT 1996
Article: 1033 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.xnet.com!minion
From: minion@flood.xnet.com (Glenn Hushyn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die,alt.electronics.analog.vlsi,alt.winsock.voice,alt.mining.recreational,alt.chinese.fengshui,alt.sci.time-travel,alt.fan.kevin-mitnick,alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup,alt.solar.thermal,alt.music.harry-chapin,alt.sp
Subject: Re: Lets help out Andy
Date: 15 Aug 1996 09:11:06 GMT
Organization: XNet - Chicagoland's Regional ISP (630) 983-6064
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4uupja$maf@flood.xnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cyclone.xnet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die:8 alt.electronics.analog.vlsi:7 alt.winsock.voice:561 alt.chinese.fengshui:774 alt.sci.time-travel:6301 alt.fan.kevin-mitnick:628 alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup:3126 alt.solar.thermal:1033 alt.music.harry-chapin:1773

Followup-To: alt.fan.stellys.tooby.die.die.die,alt.electronics.analog.vlsi,alt.winsock.voice,alt.mining.recreational,alt.chinese.fengshui,alt.sci.time-travel,alt.fan.kevin-mitnick,alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup,alt.solar.thermal,alt.music.harry-chapin,alt.s
p
Organization: XNet - A Full Service Internet Provider - (708) 983-6064
Distribution: 

THIS ENDED QUITE A WHILE AGO. HE DOESN'T WANT NOR NEED ANY MORE POSTCARDS.

SpaceThing (I'm@Jupiter.Planet) said on Thu, 15 Aug 1996 03:57:04 GMT:
: We all need to help little Andy reach his dream.  He would like to
: break the world record of receiving Post Cards, before its too late.
: The current record is close to two million so we all need to help.
: Please find it in your heart to take just five minutes and send a Post
: Card to:

: Andy Serrano
: 4813 Country Hills Drive
: Antioch, CA  94509

: PLEASE HELP HIM REACH HIS DREAM!

: PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANYONE YOU CAN.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Brucie, my boy," Angie said, "You disappoint me. Not only are you
a mercenary putz who tookadvantage of a lovely old loa and screwed up 
her Zombie, you're not even gay!"
----------------------------------------Alvin Vogel --The Party Animal------


From redrok@pclink.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:03 EDT 1996
Article: 1034 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc-e!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol -followup
Message-ID: <32132FEA.659E@pclink.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:10:50 -0700
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4ums87$81g@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4utcdc$l09@knot.queensu.ca>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 34

G McCurdy wrote:

> >>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol...

> I just double checked on a few details which I missed in my previous post
> which are kind of important.  First, the DOW propolene glycol for use in
> solar hot water systems (among other things) is sold under the brand
> name of DOWFROST HD.
>   Second, avoid using automobile radiator fluid if at all possible.  Most
> anti-freeze is ETHELYNE glycol not PROPYLENE glycol.  The important
> difference is that propylene glycol is relatively non-toxic where ethylene
> is very toxic.
> Sorry if this caused any confusion...
> Glen McCurdy

I agree with you in wanting to use propylene glycol. But. There are some
new environmentally friendly auto antifreezes that use propylene glycol.
There is an added benifit of having anticorrosion and leak sealing 
properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:05 EDT 1996
Article: 1035 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mindspring.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: 16 Aug 1996 11:25:28 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: a science fair project?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1035 alt.energy.renewable:17065 alt.architecture.alternative:7631 sci.engr.lighting:5922

Thermal shades are nice for windows on winter nights, but they are usually
opaque, so we have to open them to get solar heat and light into a room in
the morning, and close them again at night. If they are closed all day, they
don't provide daylight, and they prevent heat loss at best, vs collecting
solar heat... 

Full sun is about 10,000 footcandles, but a well-lit room is only 50 fc, so
we could attenuate the sun by 200:1 and still have lots of light in a room,
if the whole south wall were a window. Or have a 20:1 attenuation with 10%
of the south wall. 50 layers of very thin plastic might have an R-value close
to 50, and an attenuation of 200, and provide diffuse light for a room...

That's a lot of layers. Fewer would be less bulky on a roll-up window blind.
Should some of them be tinted or reflective? How efficient could 3 layers be?

Cathy Woodgold is thinking about using 10 layers of thin plastic glazing
inside a south window, with a possible improvement: seal the lower edge and
sides of each layer but leave the top open somehow, so if the air temp inside
a glazing cavity is less than the room temp, the air stays there, but if it's
warmer, it rises into the room... This would reduce the heat loss back out
of the window, by keeping some of the glazing cavities cooler than if they
were all sealed. But a large area sandwich with thin airspaces might have
a thermal resistance from one layer to the next that is a lot less than the
convective resistance for vertical airflow, so leaving the top open might
not help a lot... Would it help to seal some of the cavities, with a little
water inside, to try to make heat pipes? Would this thing get so hot inside 
that the plastic would melt?

A square foot of collector might look like this, schematically, with
no upward convective airflow:

        90%    90%
         | R1  | R1  | etc |     |     |     |     |     |     |
32 F     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |  72 F
         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
300 -->  |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |  105 -->
Btu/hr   |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |  Btu/hr
         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |

The equivalent electrical circuit might look like this

         T1    T2    T3    T4    T5    T6    T7    T8    T9    T10
         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
32 --ww--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--w--|--ww-- 72
         ^     ^     ^     ^     ^     ^     ^     ^     ^     ^
         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
         I1    I2    I3    I4    I5    I6    I7    I8    I9    I10

ie a string of resistors with small current sources (the sun absorbed
by each glazing) feeding each node...

Here's a little BASIC program that estimates the temperatures of 10 layers of
glazing, with full sun shining in the window, when it's 32 F outside and 72 F
inside, with a US R-value of 1 for each glazing cavity and an absorptance of
0.1 for each glazing, and no reflectance, with still air inside and outside
the house:

10 'calc temps for series glazing
20 I=300'solar input in Btu/hr-ft^2
30 T=.9'transmittance of each glazing layer
40 R=1'US thermal resistance of each glazing cavity
50 TA=32'outdoor temp (F)
60 TI=72'indoor temp
70 I(1)=I*(1-T)'sun power absorbed by window (Btu/hr)
80 PRINT INT(I(1)+.5);TAB(6);
90 FOR N=2 TO 9'calc and print sun power sources
100 I(N)=T*I(N-1)
110 PRINT INT(I(N)+.5);TAB(6*N);
120 NEXT N
130 I(10)=T*I(9)
140 PRINT INT(I(10)+.5)
150 TE(10)=TI+R*I(10)'Thevinin equiv temp of innermost glazing
160 RT(10)=1'Thevinin equiv resistance of innermost glazing
170 FOR N=9 TO 1 STEP -1'calc rest of Thevenin equiv temps & resistances
180 TE(N)=TE(N+1)+R*I(N)
190 RT(N)=11-N
200 NEXT N
210 FOR N=1 TO 9'print Thevenin equiv temps
220 PRINT INT(TE(N)+.5);TAB(6*N);
230 NEXT N
240 PRINT INT(TE(10)+.5)
250 FOR N=1 TO 9'print Thevenin equiv resistances
260 PRINT INT(RT(N)+.5);TAB(6*N);
270 NEXT N
280 PRINT INT(RT(10)+.5)
290 TG(1)=TA+(TE(1)-TA)/(RT(1)+R)*R'window temp (F)
300 PRINT INT(TG(1)+.5);TAB(6*1);
310 FOR N=2 TO 9'calc rest of glazing temps
320 TG(N)=TG(N-1)+(TE(N)-TG(N-1))/(RT(N)+R)*R
330 PRINT INT(TG(N)+.5);TAB(6*N);
340 NEXT N
350 TG(10)=TG(9)+(TE(10)-TG(9))/(RT(10)+R)*R
360 PRINT INT(TG(10)+.5)

The I's above (rounded) are:

 30   27    24    22    20    18    16    14    13    12    (house)

The "Thevenin equivalent temperatures" for each glazing layer, looking to
the right (an electrical model that simplifies calculations) are: 

 267  237   210   186   164   145   127   111   97    84

The "Thevenin equivalent resistances" for each layer are:

 10   9     8     7     6     5     4     3     2     1

And here are the glazing temperature estimates:

 53   72    87    100   109   115   117   116   109   96

It looks like there is a max temp in the center, which makes sense, because
there are low thermal resistances on each side, but the center glazing isn't
very hot, even in full sun.

This calculation mgiht be expanded to estimate the solar collection efficiency
including glazing reflections, different thermal resistances at the ends,
selective upwards convection from each space, tints, selective surfaces, heat
loss at night, daylighting, summer performance with the shade turned upside
down, etc...

Nick



From billr@saab.CNA.TEK.COM Wed Aug 28 11:41:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1036 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!engr.orst.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!news.tek.com!billr
From: billr@master.cna.tek.com (Bill Randle)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 15 Aug 1996 12:28:53 -0700
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond, OR
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4uvtpl$blm@saab.cna.tek.com>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4uq0sf$jli@knot.queensu.ca>
Reply-To: billr@saab.CNA.TEK.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: saab.cna.tek.com


In article <4uq0sf$jli@knot.queensu.ca>, mccurdy@me.queensu.ca (G McCurdy) writes:
|> In article <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>, tomtdl@execpc.com says...
|> >
|> >I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
|> >heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
|> >Thank You    Tom Leit
|> Tom,
|>   Propylene Glycol should be readily available from a local industrial 
|> chemical supplier.  Particularly DOW chemicals sells propylene glycol under 
|> the name of DOWFROST and DOWTHERM HD.  Van Waters & Rogers in Canada is a 
|> good supplier.
|>   Try looking for DOW chemicals in your local listing or other industrial 
|> chemical suppliers.  If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 
|> cheap automotive radiator fluid, its basically the same stuff, although the 
|> DOWTHERM chemicals operate slightly better in the temperature region that the 
|> solar system uses.


I would *not* use normal radiator anti-freeze in your system.  An earlier
comment to check out a local RV dealer is right-on. The anti-freeze used
for RV plumbing is propylene glycol - which is what you want.
The good thing about propylene glycol is that it is non-toxic. If some should
leak out of your system it won't kill your pets should they accidentally
come in contact or drink some of it.

-- 
	-Bill Randle
	Tektronix, Inc.
	billr@saab.CNA.TEK.COM


From pdi@nmia.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1037 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!nmia!news
From: "Charlie Varner" <pdi@nmia.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar housing
Date: 16 Aug 1996 05:08:53 GMT
Organization: Paramount Designs
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <01bb8b31$ba4a23e0$8fa63bc6@nmia.com>
References: <4ut4gs$p82@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup43.nmia.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1132



Doveknives <doveknives@aol.com> wrote in article
<4ut4gs$p82@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> I am very interested in the Earth Ship or burm/underground housing ideas
> 

a great design guide is in print from the University of Minnesota - Earth
Sheltered Housing Design.
> 


From greentro@sentex.net Wed Aug 28 11:41:10 EDT 1996
Article: 1038 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!torn!news.sentex.net!usenet
From: greentro@sentex.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 15 Aug 1996 23:08:24 GMT
Organization: Sentex Communications Corporation.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4v0al8$ftv@news.sentex.net>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4uq0sf$jli@knot.queensu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p17.silicon.sentex.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)

mccurdy@me.queensu.ca (G McCurdy) wrote:
>In article <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>, tomtdl@execpc.com says...
>>
>>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  
>> ... snip ...
>Tom,
>  Propylene Glycol should be readily available from a local industrial 
>chemical supplier.  
.. snip ...

Thanks, I also appreciate that pointer (I've been dreaming of building a
solar hot water heater for years, and one of these I'm going to actually 
do it (I hope :) ).

If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 
>cheap automotive radiator fluid, its basically the same stuff, although the 
>DOWTHERM chemicals operate slightly better in the temperature region that the 
>solar system uses.

>From  my reading, using car antifreeze is a very bad idea.  I think that 
Ethylene Glycol, which can kill if consumed in any significant quantity.
If there were ever a leak in your hot water heating system, you might
end up consuming this stuff, with at the very least unhealthy results.

I'm no chemist -- that's just what I read.  More knowledgable people
please comment.

--
Bert Menkveld



From lob@vornet.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:12 EDT 1996
Article: 1039 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!paperboy.owt.com!express.ior.com!usenet
From: Rich Lobrovich <lob@vornet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 17 Aug 1996 01:43:00 GMT
Organization: AIR HVAC
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4v3834$6s1@express.ior.com>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4untu0$2ct@hasle.sn.no> <3210931C.72EF@pclink.com> <3211FF5E.20D4@netnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-018.vornet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit)

On the west coast I have purchased 55 Gallon drums from local gasoline
wholesalers ie Chevron Union Oil
For smaller quant try local air conditioningparts houses that carry
water treatment chemicals like Calgon.
Calgon should be able to provide you with specfic gravity charts
if you want to look at freeze points and heat transfer changes compared 
to h2o .

Rich Lob 



From john@nine7.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 28 11:41:13 EDT 1996
Article: 1040 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!nine7.demon.co.uk
From: john <john@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 08:55:18 GMT
Organization: an ascii newshead's glass screen
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <840272118snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: john@nine7.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nine7.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: nine7.demon.co.uk
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1040 alt.energy.renewable:17138 alt.architecture.alternative:7652 sci.engr.lighting:5932

One question I wonder about transfering the warmer air in the glazing, to the 
room when it is warmer than the room, would there be just to much for a fan or 
heat pipe to transfer it without making a noise.
I've seen greenhouse vents that open at a certain temperture silently.
With a little warming electronics they could open at differant tempertures as 
required. -- 

Yours sincerely....John G.*?*?*?*?*? Us Neuron's don't KNOW that much, period.
*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?
(Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech' power.)c?
(Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving
so as apathy doesn't drown lurkers)c?


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:15 EDT 1996
Article: 1041 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: 18 Aug 1996 09:14:11 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <840272118snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1041 alt.energy.renewable:17148 alt.architecture.alternative:7653

john  <john@nine7.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>One question I wonder about transfering the warmer air in the glazing, to the 
>room when it is warmer than the room, would there be just to much for a fan or 
>heat pipe to transfer it without making a noise.

A PV fan? Hmmm. I dunno.

>I've seen greenhouse vents that open at a certain temperture silently.
>With a little warming electronics they could open at differant tempertures as 
>required. -- 

Bias them with a little resistive heater? Interesting idea. I seem to recall
that some HVAC hydronic zone valves work that way.  
 
Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:16 EDT 1996
Article: 1042 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: 18 Aug 1996 10:31:13 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 126
Message-ID: <4v79fh$eid@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <840272118snz@nine7.demon.co.uk> <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1042 alt.energy.renewable:17149 alt.architecture.alternative:7655 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8557

Youth hostels now have educational goals, ie "programming," including posters
and demonstrations. A nearby hostel has a "sustainable living" theme, and
its keepers Beverly and Arnold would like to redo a 10x12' shed on a concrete
pad in the backyard into a 100% solar-heated structure, a room for two people
to stay in, with no other means of heat. This could be a way for some people
to try out a sunspace/solar closet house, and say to themselves "Hey, it's
warm in here and cold outside, and there's been no sun for a week, and this
is a simple system!" (With one voice :-) And a place to put our Lambert data
logger and modem this winter. The shed has electricity now, and there's a
pnone line nearby. 

The hostel runs on a shoestring, with some 600 yearly visitors, even though
they can put up 24 people. (How many hotels charge $12/night and have a 7%
occupancy rate? :-) They would like to be able to house a classroom or
schoolbus full of people, now that they are in the education business.

Right now the shed is just 2x4 studs with clapboard on the sides, on a
concrete pad, with slightly rotting sills, and 2 2x6' single pane skylights
and 2 6'x6' single pane windows recently installed by young architect Eric.
The south side is a blank 12' wall, facing a state park road. 

                      | 
    main building     |                                ^
 ---------------------                               S |
                                               20'
                                      --------------------
                                     |                    |
         view from above             |        pond        | 16'
                                     |                    | 
                                     |                    |
                                      --------------------
                                          |   sunspace    | 4'
                                           ---------------
                           solar closet-->| dd|     .     |
                                          | dd| sky . sky | 10' 
                                          | dd|     .     |
                                           --- -----------
                                            4'      12'
                    

                                         campfire/picnic area


                -----     (gable roof)              .
                -----                     .....           .
             . |     |                    | dd|  window/  | 8' window
     pond   .ss| sc  |                    | dd|    door   |
  ---------------------------       --------------------------------

        view from the east                view from the north


The sunspace might look like this from the east, larger:

                         ---------------------------------------
    sun                 |                 10'                   |
                        |                                       |
                      .  ---------------------------------------
                    .   |  data logger                          |
                        |                                       |
                  .     |                                       |
                        |  drum  drum  drum  drum      sauna?   | ~8'
                 .      |                                       |
                        |                                       |
                        |                                       |
     pond       .  4'   |  drum  drum  drum  drum               |
----------------------------------------------------------------

The sunspace might be $1/ft^2 0.020" very clear flat Replex (800) 726-5151
polycarbonate plastic from a 49" wide x 50' roll, with a 10 year guarantee,
attached to curved beams on 4' centers, made from 2 8' 1x3s screwed to some
spacers between them. It might have a railroad tie "foundation" spiked to
the ground with 4' of rebar, and a layer of dark green shadecloth hooked to
the inside of the 1x3s in winter, and hanging over the outside in summer. 

Some Tyvek on the inside of the shed might stop the wind from blowing through
the clapboards (long-haired hostel friend George, from West Virginia, who
added the skylights and reshingled the roof, recently treated the outside
of the clapboards with his secret formula of old crankcase oil and kerosene),
and insulate it and add on a 4' wide x 8' tall x 8' deep solar closet, perhaps
with no inner glazing, so the shallow sunspace, eg "solar siding" or plastic
film lean-to greenhouse, would be about 8' tall x 16' long, gathering about
118K Btu/day. An EPDM-rubber-lined pond 16' wide x 20' long x 1' deep along
the south wall might increase this to 157K Btu/day when it's frozen, making
a skating pond and leaving less grass to mow. With a sunspace glazing loss
of 6 hr x (80-36)6x16/R1 = 34K Btu, it might gain 123K Btu/day (36 kWh/day,
like $50K worth of PVs :-), net. 

If the insulation inside were US R20 (5 1/2" of compressed fiberglass, with
some horizontal 1x3s over that, and a vapor barrier and drywall, (visiting
green German architect Claudia suggests a straw/clay mixture instead), and we
could somehow board up all those architecturally-interesting windows and
skylights with R10 shutters on December nights, the shed would have a total
thermal conductance of about 96 ft^2/R10 = 9.6 Btu/hr-F for the glazing and
another 584 ft^2/R20 = 29.2 for the walls and roof, ie 38.8 Btu/hr-F, so
it would need 24(68-36)38.8 = 30 K Btu to stay warm inside on an average
36 F Phila December day, with no sun, and over 5 days it would need 150K Btu.
If the solar closet had 16 55 gallon drums in it, the water would need to
lose 150K/16x500 = 19 F to provide that heat, so it might have a steady-state
temperature of 100 F, after a long string of average December days, with some
sun, if an 80 F solar closet could keep the room at 68 F. The room needs
1250 Btu/hr on an average day, and C cfm of airflow 12 F warmer than the
house would move about 12C Btu/hr, ie C = 104. 

Maybe this could this work by natural convection. An H foot chimney with warm
air inside and vent areas A ft^2 at top and bottom has an airflow of about
16.6 A x sqrt(H DT), ie 163 A = 104, so A = 1.6 ft^2. We might want a small
low-power fan that seldom turns on, as well as a motorized damper, eg a
1' x 2' piece of foil-faced foamboard attached to a $50 Honeywell ML6161A1001
direct-coupled damper motor about the size of a cigarette pack with a 24 VAC
motor the size of a ping-pong ball that uses 2 Watts when it is moving and
0 Watts when it is not.

If 157K Btu flowed into the sunspace on an average December day, and 30K of
that heated the house (altho the south wall will be warm), 127K might flow
out of the 128 ft^2 of sunspace glazing, so 1000 Btu = 6 hours x (T-36)/R1,
and the average sunspace temperature might be 36 + 1000/6 = 203 F. Probably
not, but it looks like the sunspace-house heating airpath can definitely work
by natural convection, and maybe the sunspace-solar closet airpath (although
a PV-powered fan would be useful). We might need to leave some of the shed
windows open during the day...

The ASES solar house tour is October 18 :-)

Anyone else want to help with this project? 



From blrman@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1043 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Larry Coutlee <blrman@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:24:50 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <321751E2.5FE7@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <840272118snz@nine7.demon.co.uk> <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v79fh$eid@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: als-il2-15.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 18 10:16:51 AM CDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1043 alt.energy.renewable:17152 alt.architecture.alternative:7658 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8559

geeze with the Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Youth hostels now have educational goals, ie "programming," including posters
> and demonstrations. A nearby hostel has a "sustainable living" theme, and
> its keepers Beverly and Arnold would like to redo a 10x12' shed on a concrete
> pad in the backyard into a 100% solar-heated structure, a room for two people
> to stay in, with no other means of heat. This could be a way for some people
> to try out a sunspace/solar closet house, and say to themselves "Hey, it's
> warm in here and cold outside, and there's been no sun for a week, and this
> is a simple system!" (With one voice :-) And a place to put our Lambert data
> logger and modem this winter. The shed has electricity now, and there's a
> pnone line nearby.
> 
> The hostel runs on a shoestring, with some 600 yearly visitors, even though
> they can put up 24 people. (How many hotels charge $12/night and have a 7%
> occupancy rate? :-) They would like to be able to house a classroom or
> schoolbus full of people, now that they are in the education business.
> 
> Right now the shed is just 2x4 studs with clapboard on the sides, on a
> concrete pad, with slightly rotting sills, and 2 2x6' single pane skylights
> and 2 6'x6' single pane windows recently installed by young architect Eric.
> The south side is a blank 12' wall, facing a state park road.
> 
>                       |
>     main building     |                                ^
>  ---------------------                               S |
>                                                20'
>                                       --------------------
>                                      |                    |
>          view from above             |        pond        | 16'
>                                      |                    |
>                                      |                    |
>                                       --------------------
>                                           |   sunspace    | 4'
>                                            ---------------
>                            solar closet-->| dd|     .     |
>                                           | dd| sky . sky | 10'
>                                           | dd|     .     |
>                                            --- -----------
>                                             4'      12'
> 
> 
>                                          campfire/picnic area
> 
>                 -----     (gable roof)              .
>                 -----                     .....           .
>              . |     |                    | dd|  window/  | 8' window
>      pond   .ss| sc  |                    | dd|    door   |
>   ---------------------------       --------------------------------
> 
>         view from the east                view from the north
> 
> The sunspace might look like this from the east, larger:
> 
>                          ---------------------------------------
>     sun                 |                 10'                   |
>                         |                                       |
>                       .  ---------------------------------------
>                     .   |  data logger                          |
>                         |                                       |
>                   .     |                                       |
>                         |  drum  drum  drum  drum      sauna?   | ~8'
>                  .      |                                       |
>                         |                                       |
>                         |                                       |
>      pond       .  4'   |  drum  drum  drum  drum               |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The sunspace might be $1/ft^2 0.020" very clear flat Replex (800) 726-5151
> polycarbonate plastic from a 49" wide x 50' roll, with a 10 year guarantee,
> attached to curved beams on 4' centers, made from 2 8' 1x3s screwed to some
> spacers between them. It might have a railroad tie "foundation" spiked to
> the ground with 4' of rebar, and a layer of dark green shadecloth hooked to
> the inside of the 1x3s in winter, and hanging over the outside in summer.
> 
> Some Tyvek on the inside of the shed might stop the wind from blowing through
> the clapboards (long-haired hostel friend George, from West Virginia, who
> added the skylights and reshingled the roof, recently treated the outside
> of the clapboards with his secret formula of old crankcase oil and kerosene),
> and insulate it and add on a 4' wide x 8' tall x 8' deep solar closet, perhaps
> with no inner glazing, so the shallow sunspace, eg "solar siding" or plastic
> film lean-to greenhouse, would be about 8' tall x 16' long, gathering about
> 118K Btu/day. An EPDM-rubber-lined pond 16' wide x 20' long x 1' deep along
> the south wall might increase this to 157K Btu/day when it's frozen, making
> a skating pond and leaving less grass to mow. With a sunspace glazing loss
> of 6 hr x (80-36)6x16/R1 = 34K Btu, it might gain 123K Btu/day (36 kWh/day,
> like $50K worth of PVs :-), net.
> 
> If the insulation inside were US R20 (5 1/2" of compressed fiberglass, with
> some horizontal 1x3s over that, and a vapor barrier and drywall, (visiting
> green German architect Claudia suggests a straw/clay mixture instead), and we
> could somehow board up all those architecturally-interesting windows and
> skylights with R10 shutters on December nights, the shed would have a total
> thermal conductance of about 96 ft^2/R10 = 9.6 Btu/hr-F for the glazing and
> another 584 ft^2/R20 = 29.2 for the walls and roof, ie 38.8 Btu/hr-F, so
> it would need 24(68-36)38.8 = 30 K Btu to stay warm inside on an average
> 36 F Phila December day, with no sun, and over 5 days it would need 150K Btu.
> If the solar closet had 16 55 gallon drums in it, the water would need to
> lose 150K/16x500 = 19 F to provide that heat, so it might have a steady-state
> temperature of 100 F, after a long string of average December days, with some
> sun, if an 80 F solar closet could keep the room at 68 F. The room needs
> 1250 Btu/hr on an average day, and C cfm of airflow 12 F warmer than the
> house would move about 12C Btu/hr, ie C = 104.
> 
> Maybe this could this work by natural convection. An H foot chimney with warm
> air inside and vent areas A ft^2 at top and bottom has an airflow of about
> 16.6 A x sqrt(H DT), ie 163 A = 104, so A = 1.6 ft^2. We might want a small
> low-power fan that seldom turns on, as well as a motorized damper, eg a
> 1' x 2' piece of foil-faced foamboard attached to a $50 Honeywell ML6161A1001
> direct-coupled damper motor about the size of a cigarette pack with a 24 VAC
> motor the size of a ping-pong ball that uses 2 Watts when it is moving and
> 0 Watts when it is not.
> 
> If 157K Btu flowed into the sunspace on an average December day, and 30K of
> that heated the house (altho the south wall will be warm), 127K might flow
> out of the 128 ft^2 of sunspace glazing, so 1000 Btu = 6 hours x (T-36)/R1,
> and the average sunspace temperature might be 36 + 1000/6 = 203 F. Probably
> not, but it looks like the sunspace-house heating airpath can definitely work
> by natural convection, and maybe the sunspace-solar closet airpath (although
> a PV-powered fan would be useful). We might need to leave some of the shed
> windows open during the day...
> 
> The ASES solar house tour is October 18 :-)
> 
> Anyone else want to help with this project?

geeze louize!!!!  with the walls treated with motor oil and kerosene, it 
sounds like a fire trap or a perfect space for toxic fumes when all that 
heat starts circulating! My first step would be to rip off all the wood 
treated with the "secret formula!" Then start with the sealing of all air 
leaks, insulation, thermal spaces etc. It will work but if your not 
carefull this will get expensive real quick.


From barock@ukans.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:20 EDT 1996
Article: 1044 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!caen!news.cc.ukans.edu!usenet
From: "Brian A. Rock" <barock@ukans.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:23:08 -0700
Organization: The University of Kansas
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <32176D9C.6284@ukans.edu>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <840272118snz@nine7.demon.co.uk> <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v79fh$eid@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <321751E2.5FE7@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: steam.arce.ukans.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1044 alt.energy.renewable:17154 alt.architecture.alternative:7659 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8562

Larry Coutlee wrote:

> geeze louize!!!!  with the walls treated with motor oil and kerosene, it
> sounds like a fire trap or a perfect space for toxic fumes when all that
> heat starts circulating! My first step would be to rip off all the wood
> treated with the "secret formula!" Then start with the sealing of all air
> leaks, insulation, thermal spaces etc. It will work but if your not
> carefull this will get expensive real quick.


Old engine oil has carcinogens (amines) and pollutes ground water too!

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E.        Voice:  (913) 864-3434
The University of Kansas          Fax:    (913) 864-5099
Architectural Engineering Dept.   E mailto:barock@ukans.edu
Marvin Hall                       Home page: http://www.arce.ukans.edu/
Lawrence, Kansas 66045-2222       Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1045 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: 18 Aug 1996 16:15:39 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4v7tlb$h7g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v79fh$eid@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <321751E2.5FE7@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1045 alt.energy.renewable:17155 alt.architecture.alternative:7662 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8563

Larry Coutlee  <blrman@ix.netcom.com> quotes voluminously:
>geeze with the Nick Pine wrote:
 
Geeze didn't help with this. Would He prefer the Gulf War, as projects go?

>>Youth hostels now have educational goals, ie "programming," including posters
>>and demonstrations. A nearby hostel has a "sustainable living" theme, and
>>its keepers Beverly and Arnold would like to redo a 10x12' shed on a concrete
>>pad in the backyard into a 100% solar-heated structure...

>>...(long-haired hostel friend George, from West Virginia, who
>>added the skylights and reshingled the roof, recently treated the outside
>>of the clapboards with his secret formula of old crankcase oil and kerosene),

>geeze louize!!!!  with the walls treated with motor oil and kerosene, it 
>sounds like a fire trap or a perfect space for toxic fumes when all that 
>heat starts circulating!

I imagine this structure will end up pretty air-leaky. We didn't hear much
about this problem until we started building expensive airtight houses...
George makes up for this environmental insensitivity by heating his house
with no insulation in West Virginia with 9 cords of environmentally-friendly
renewable wood a year. He's old, and he has a long beard and pony tail.

I'm working on the materials list for this proj now. So far we have wood,
fiberglass and foam insulation, polyethylene film, polycarbonate plastic,
straw, clay, flashing, screws, chicken wire, wire, turnbuckles, solid state
relays, microprocessors, modems, stucco, lead-based paint and misc (benzine,
paraquat, and diazinon, with a pinch of arsenic and cadmium dust.)
  
>My first step would be to rip off all the wood 
>treated with the "secret formula!"

Gee Larry, thanks for volunteering! :-) Email for directions. My neighbor Jim
says he will donate 1 or 2 hours a day too. He says we need to lift up the
shed and put some pressure-treated 4x4s under the sill plates. This may be
easier if we remove all that wood first, ie the walls. 

>Then start with the sealing of all air leaks,

Like, um, where all the walls used to be? 

Good idea :-)

Nick

("Cement? I can't BELIEVE you are going to use CEMENT!" --anon, Tom Lawand.)



From lloeb@igc.apc.org Wed Aug 28 11:41:22 EDT 1996
Article: 1046 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Renewable Energy Education Program
Date: 18 Aug 1996 19:12:54 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 372
Message-ID: <4v7pvm$fsq@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp36.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

                    Solar Energy International's

          1996 RENEWABLE ENERGY EDUCATION PROGRAM (REEP)

               A Description of Individual Workshops

  ============================================================

     Section 1      Workshops to be held in Carbondale, CO
     Section 2      Tuition cost and general information about REEP '96
     Section 3      Workshops to be held in:
                         Tucson, AZ
                         Asheville, NC
                         Woodstock, NY
                         Wilmington, NC
     Section 4      Who is Solar Energy International?

  ============================================================


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<<   S E C T I O N   1 :  Workshops in Carbondale, CO   >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


PHOTOVOLTAICS DESIGN & INSTALLATION
May 28 - June 7,  August 5 - 16

Participants in the PV Design & Installation workshop learn how
to use PV (photovoltaic) technology to produce their own
electricity from the sun through practical design and
installation of PV systems.  Participants learn system sizing,
site analysis, hardware specification and component selection.
The workshop covers typical applications and case study
examples.  Install an operational system in the field and learn
the proper use of tools and safety precautions.  This workshop is
for the beginner who wants to use PV or for those seeking
employment in the solar industry.

Topics Include:

* Home Applications                * Component Specification
* Basics of Electricity            * Basic Electrical Wiring
* Solar Site Analysis              * Safety Procedures
* PV System Components             * Solar Water Pumping
* Energy Efficient Appliances      * PV for Lesser Developed
* PV System Sizing                    Countries

Other Activities Include:

* Tours of PV Residences           * Laboratory Exercises
* Industry Representatives         * Field Installation


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *


ADVANCED PHOTOVOLTAICS
 June 10 - 21,  August 19 - 30

In this PV workshop, participants develop an in-depth
understanding and skills in the design, installation and
operation of photovoltaic systems.  (Participants should be
knowledgeable in electric theory and the design/installation of
basic PV systems or have completed the PV Design & Installation
course).  Activities include hands-on laboratory exercises with
batteries, inverters, controls, wiring and AC and DC appliances.
Case studies will highlight systems design for code compliance
and commercial applications.  This workshop is for people who
currently work in or plan to be employed in the PV industry.

Topics Include:

* Commercial Applications          * Lightning Protection
* Solar Water Pumping              * Battery Technology
* PV Software Programs             * Hybrid Systems
* Component  O & M                 * PV Businesses
* National Electric Code           * Inverters
* Troubleshooting


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

SOLAR HOME DESIGN
May 6 - 17,  September 16 - 27

Learn the fundamentals of solar and energy-efficient
construction.  The workshops cover high performance passive solar
homes.  State-of-the-art passive solar design
tools and progressive building techniques are presented.  New
construction, remodel/retrofit opportunities, case studies and
tours of successful designs will also be included in these
workshops.

Topics include:

* Passive Solar Concepts           * Sunspaces & Greenhouses
* Design Guidelines                * New Window Technologies
* Weatherizing & Solarizing        * Health Issues
* Insulation Strategies            * Mechanical HVAC Systems
* Construction Techniques          * Earth Building Technologies
* Solar Water Heating              * Lessons Learned

ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING TECHNOLOGIES
Weekend Hands-On Workshops: Friday 7-10pm, Sat. & Sun. 9 - 5

Straw-Bale Construction:  May 3 - 5,  September 13 - 15
Adobe & Rammed Earth:  May 10 - 12, September 20 - 22
Natural House Building:  May 17 - 19,  September 27 - 29

Straw-Bale Construction - Covers the history and recent
renaissance of building long-lasting, low cost, fire resistant,
energy efficient homes with straw-bales.  Build a straw-bale
structure through hands-on instruction.

Adobe & Rammed Earth Construction - Explores adobe, pressed block
and rammed earth construction. Learn soil testing, adobe and
block making, foundations, roof options and practical building
techniques.

Natural House Building-  Learn how natural building materials can enhance 
your home. Learn
the construction techniques of timber framing, straw/clay
building, earth plastering, earthen floors and "green" products.



*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

SOLAR COOKING
July 1 - 3

This workshop covers the fundamental principles of solar
cooking and solar food drying.  Participants receive
hands-on instruction and will build their own solar oven.  A
variety of cooker and dryer designs and their applications are
explored.

Topics Include:

* Basic Solar Thermal Principles   * Solar Water Distillation
* Dryer Sizing & Construction      * Technology Transfer
* Various Dryer & Cooker Styles   * Cooker Construction
* Multi-Uses of Solar Cookers


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

MICRO-HYDRO ELECTRIC
July 8 - 19

This workshop teaches how to design a fully functional
micro-hydro system.  Learn site evaluation, including how to
measure and estimate head and flow.  Perform preliminary
system sizing for mechanical and electrical power generation of
50 watt to 100 kilowatt capacities.  The course includes
field exercises and tours of operational systems.

Topics Include:

* System Components                * Controls
* Turbine Types                    * Trouble-Shooting
* AC and DC Systems                * Maintenance
* Site Analysis                    * Hybrid Systems
* System Design                    * Case Studies
* Battery Storage


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

WIND POWER
July 22 - August 2

Participants learn to design and install wind generator systems. Focus is 
on small scale systems
3KW to 10KW. Hands-on project with  full-size wind generators.

Topics Include:

* Aerodynamics                     * System Sizing
* Generators                       * Safety Considerations
* Alternators                      * Energy Storage
* Induction Machines               * Legal Issues
* Tower Design                     * Solar Hybrid Systems
* Site Analysis




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<  S E C T I O N   2 :  Tuition cost and general information  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


REEP '96 workshops in Carbondale are two weeks long, with the exception 
of solar cooking
(three days).
Tuition, which includes the cost of textbooks and materials,
is based on the number of weeks of study:

# of weeks:    1     2      3       4      5      6        7       8     
   9       10       12
Tuition ($):  450   900   1300  1700  2000  2300   2550   2800   3000   
3200

Additional weeks of study cost $200 per week.
(solar cooking workshop is $300)

Food and housing are not included in the tuition cost, but SEI
will be happy to help you find suitable lodging.

SEI believes that people learn by doing.  Instructors are
leaders in their fields, bringing with them the most up-to-date
information in renewable energy technologies.  Classroom and
laboratory work is enhanced by case studies, tours, and
practical installations.

SEI workshops are small.  We work hard and ask that you do the
same.  We try our best to make your experience rewarding and
enjoyable.  Our workshops are in English, pero se habla espanol.

Workshops are open to all on a first-come, first-serve basis.
Class size is limited.  To reserve a seat, send us a deposit of
50 percent of the total tuition.  Please note that $50 of your
deposit is non-refundable.

SEI is located in Carbondale, Colorado, a small town in the heart
of the Rocky Mountains, thirty miles west of Aspen and a three hour drive 
west of Denver.

For more information or to register for any of the 1996 REEP
workshops, you may contact SEI via e-mail at sei@solarenergy.org, or
write to SEI at P.O. Box 715, Carbondale, CO  81623.  Our phone
number is (970) 963-8855; fax (970) 963-8866.



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<<    S E C T I O N   3 :   Workshops outside Colorado     >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Solar Energy International announces the following 1996
workshops to be held outside of Carbondale, Colorado.  For
registration information on any of these workshops, contact:
Solar Energy International, P.O. Box 715, Carbondale, CO  81623;
tel. (970) 963-8855; fax (970) 963-8866; email: sei@solarenergy.org


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
TUCSON, ARIZONA WORKSHOPS

  SOLAR WATER PUMPING
   February 5 - 8
   Cost: $450

Learn how to pump water with the sun for livestock, irrigation and 
domestic use.

  SOLAR COOKING
   February 9 - 11
   Cost: $200
    Friday 7 - 10pm / Sat. & Sun. 9 - 5

See description above.

  SOLAR HOME DESIGN
   February 12 - 24
   Cost: $600*
    Monday - Friday 5:30 - 10:00 pm / Sat. 9 - 5

* The Solar Home Design Workshops series is offered on a weekly. One-week 
tuition is $325.
See description above.


  PHOTOVOLTAIC DESIGN & INSTALLATION
   March 4 - 15
   Cost: $900

See description above.

  ADVANCED PHOTOVOLTAICS
   March 18 - 29
   Cost: $900

See description above.

  PHOTOVOLTAIC DESIGN & INSTALLATION
   November 4 - 9
   Cost: $500  (includes lodging)

See description above.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA WORKSHOPS
*These workshops coincide with the American Solar Energy Society (ASES) 
Annual
conference to be held in Asheville, NC April 13-18.

  PHOTOVOLTAIC DESIGN & INSTALLATION
   April 8 - 12
   Cost: $450

See description above.

  MICRO-HYDRO POWER
   April 19 - 21
   Cost: $300

See description above.

Solar energy improvements, including photovoltaics, qualify for
North Carolina State Income Tax Credits for both individuals and
businesses.


*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
PHOTOVOLTAIC DESIGN & INSTALLATION IN WOODSTOCK, NEW YORK
October 14 - 19
Cost: $550

See description above.

WIND POWER IN WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA
October 21 - 26
Cost: $550

See description above.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<   S E C T I O N  4 :  Who is Solar Energy International?  >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Solar Energy International (SEI) is a non-profit (501(c)3)
organization whose mission is to provide education and technical
assistance so that others will be empowered to use renewable
energy technologies.

SEI believes that renewable energy resources of solar, wind and
water can improve the quality of life and promote sustainable
development for people throughout the world.  Renewable energy
systems are practical, reliable, cost efficient and
environmentally sound.

SEI works cooperatively with individuals and organizations to
meet energy and resource efficiency goals.  SEI provides
education and training to decision makers, technicians and users
of renewable energy sources.  SEI also provides the expertise to
plan, engineer and implement sustainable development projects.

SEI professionals have project and training experience in the
Americas, Micronesia and the Caribbean.  During the past 15
years, SEI staff have delivered services to the Pan American
Health Organization, Non-Governmental Organizations, foreign,
national and state governments, universities, and individuals
seeking the benefits of renewable energy.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Solar Energy International
P.O. Box 715
Carbondale, CO  81623-0715
(970) 963-8855
fax (970) 963-8866
E-mail:     sei@solarenergy.org
HomePage:   http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/sei




From lloeb@igc.apc.org Wed Aug 28 11:41:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1047 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Nontoxic Construction Wkshp, Aspen, CO September
Date: 18 Aug 1996 19:14:32 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4v7q2o$fsq@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp36.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

BUILDING FOR HUMAN HEALTH: Closing the Door on Toxic Construction
A workshop sponsored by SOLAR ENERGY INTERNATIONAL

September 27 - 30, 1996 in Aspen, Colorado

********  What homeowners, builders, architects and consumers 
need to know about the homes they live in or want to build.**********

An alert to the health hazards of standard building methods and 
materials, this colloquium investigates alternatives to toxic 
construction.  This unique presentation highlights the integration of 
environmentally sound building with construction techniques that promote 
human health.

This colloquium was designed in collaboration with people who have been 
injured and disabled by chemical exposures.  Knowing the value of an 
unpolluted environment, they seek to prevent unnecessary illness in 
others.

* Be alerted to health hazards of standard building practices and 
products.

* Learn alternatives to toxic construction.

* Integrate "green" building with construction techniques that promote 
human health.

* Learn time-honored approaches to integrating people, buildings and the 
natural environment.

* Create a living environment that nourishes human spirit, vitality and 
health.

Presenters Include:

Paula Baker
John Bower
Erica Elliott, M.D.
Cedar Rose Guelberth
Susan Molloy
Cecil Smith
Carol Venolia
Panther Wilde

Place: This colloquium will be sponsored by SOLAR ENERGY INTERNATIONAL 
and will be held at the Aspen Center for Environmental Studies in ASPEN, 
COLORADO

Schedule:	Friday, September 27   	7 pm - 9 pm    
	Saturday, September 28	9 am - 9 pm
		(includes potluck dinner 5 - 7 pm)
	Sunday, September 29		9 am - 5 pm
	Monday, 	September 30	9 am - 5 pm	

Costs:	Friday evening		$10
	Friday, Saturday, Sunday	$250
	Monday			$100
	Friday - Monday		$325

* The colloquium will adhere to a fragrance-free policy *

Please send us your mailing address so that we can mail you a complete 
schedule and registration form.

For more information and registration, contact:

Solar Energy International
PO Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623-0715
Tel: (970) 963-8855
FAX: (970) 963-8866
E-mail: sei@solarenergy.org
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/sei/

SEI is a non-profit 501(c)3 educational organization whose mission is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energies through education and 
technical assistance.




From lloeb@igc.apc.org Wed Aug 28 11:41:25 EDT 1996
Article: 1048 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Oct. Photovoltaic Wrkshp, Woodstock, NY
Date: 18 Aug 1996 19:16:18 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4v7q62$fsq@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp36.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

A Photovoltaic Design and Installation Workshop will be held near 
Woodstock, NY October 14 -19.  Offered by Solar Energy International 
(SEI) as part of their 1996 RENEWABLE ENERGY EDUCATION PROGRAM (REEP), 
the workshop will teach you how to use solar energy to produce your own 
electricity through practical design and installation of photovoltaic 
(PV) systems.

Participants in the PV Design & Installation workshop learn how to use PV 
(photovoltaic) technology to produce their own electricity from the sun 
through practical design and installation of PV systems.  Participants 
learn system sizing, site analysis, hardware specification and component 
selection.

The workshop covers typical applications and case study examples.  
Participants will install an operational system in the field and learn 
the proper use of tools and safety precautions.  This workshop is for the 
beginner who wants to use PV, owner-builders, people seeking careers as 
solar professionals or seeking employment in the solar industry, and 
people wanting to work in developing countries.

Topics Include:

* Basics of Electricity            
* Solar Site Analysis             
* Stand-Alone Applications
* PV System Components            
* Energy Efficient Appliances     
* Component Specification         
* Safety Procedures & Code

Other Activities Include:

* Tours of PV Residences 
* Laboratory Exercises
* Hands-on Installation

The workshop will be held from 9 am to 5 pm daily, October 14 - 19, and 
is being co-sponsored by Sun Mountain.  The all-inclusive fee is $550.

For more information on logistics and housing call Sun Mountain at 
914-657-8096.

For general information and registration, contact:

Solar Energy International
PO Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623-0715
Tel: (970) 963-8855
FAX: (970) 963-8866
E-mail: sei@solarenergy.org
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/sei/

SEI is a non-profit 501(c)3 educational organization whose mission is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energies through education and 
technical assistance.




From lloeb@igc.apc.org Wed Aug 28 11:41:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1049 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.igc.apc.org!usenet
From: Laurie Loeb <lloeb@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: November Photovoltaic Wrkshp, Tucson, AZ
Date: 18 Aug 1996 19:17:42 GMT
Organization: Institute for Global Communications
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <4v7q8m$fsq@igc.apc.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ptp36.rof.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit)

A Photovoltaic Design and Installation Workshop will be held in Tucson, 
AZ November 4 - 9. Offered by Solar Energy International (SEI) as part of 
their 1996 RENEWABLE ENERGY EDUCATION PROGRAM (REEP), the workshop will 
teach you how to use solar energy to produce your own electricity through 
practical design and installation of photovoltaic (PV) systems.

Participants in the PV Design & Installation workshop learn how to use PV 
(photovoltaic) technology to produce their own electricity from the sun 
through practical design and installation of PV systems.  Participants 
learn system sizing, site analysis, hardware specification and component 
selection.

The workshop covers typical applications and case study examples.  
Participants will install an operational system in the field and learn 
the proper use of tools and safety precautions.  This workshop is for the 
beginner who wants to use PV, owner-builders, people seeking careers as 
solar professionals or seeking employment in the solar industry, and 
people wanting to work in developing countries.

Topics Include:

* Basics of Electricity            
* Solar Site Analysis             
* Stand-Alone Applications
* PV System Components            
* Energy Efficient Appliances     
* Component Specification         
* Safety Procedures & Code

Other Activities Include:

* Tours of PV Residences 
* Laboratory Exercises
* Hands-on Installation

The workshop will be held from 9 am to 5 pm daily, November 4 - 9, at the 
Cooper Environmental Science Center in Tucson.  The all-inclusive fee is 
$500 and includes lodging.  Over the last three years SEI has 
participated in yearly workshops aimed at taking the Cooper campus "off 
the grid."  By the end of this workshop, CESC will be completely solar 
powered.

Lodging will be on the site in cabins which accommodate 12 people.  
Bedding is not included, so participants should bring their own sleeping 
bag, sheets, blanket, etc.  Participants will be installing solar systems 
on cabins in which they are staying.  Water, electricity and kitchen 
facilities are available.

Lodging at CESC is optional.  If you prefer to stay at another location, 
please make your own arrangements, and let us know that you won't be 
staying in the provided lodging. 

CESC, surrounded by Saguaro cactus, is nestled in the mountains of 
Tucson. In November day-time temperatures range from 65 to 70 degrees 
Farenheit, with cool evenings.  Escape the early wet winter chills and 
join us for a fantastic learning experience in sunny Arizona!

For general information and registration, contact:

Solar Energy International
PO Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623-0715
Tel: (970) 963-8855
FAX: (970) 963-8866
E-mail: sei@solarenergy.org
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/sei/

SEI is a non-profit 501(c)3 educational organization whose mission is to
encourage the practical use of renewable energies through education and 
technical assistance.




From albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at Wed Aug 28 11:41:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1050 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Austria.EU.net!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!news
From: Albrecht Kadlec <albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol -followup
Date: 19 Aug 1996 15:41:21 +0200
Organization: TU Wien
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <tirap3sd8e.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com> <4ums87$81g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
	<4utcdc$l09@knot.queensu.ca> <32132FEA.659E@pclink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at
Mail-Copies-To: albrecht@auto.tuwien.ac.at
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com> writes:

> 
> G McCurdy wrote:
> 
> > >>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol...
> 
> > I just double checked on a few details which I missed in my previous post
> > which are kind of important.  First, the DOW propolene glycol for use in
> > solar hot water systems (among other things) is sold under the brand
> > name of DOWFROST HD.
> >   Second, avoid using automobile radiator fluid if at all possible.  Most
> > anti-freeze is ETHELYNE glycol not PROPYLENE glycol.  The important
> > difference is that propylene glycol is relatively non-toxic where ethylene
> > is very toxic.
> > Sorry if this caused any confusion...
> > Glen McCurdy
> 
> I agree with you in wanting to use propylene glycol. But. There are some
> new environmentally friendly auto antifreezes that use propylene glycol.
> There is an added benifit of having anticorrosion and leak sealing 
> properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

YES, BUT
. where do this properties come from, and are these chemicals toxic?
. are these anti-corrodants, etc useful. i.e: do they actually prolong
	the life of the solar system?
. where does corrosion come from in a closed system, filled with
	propylene glycol and water?  The amount of minerals and the pH
	of the water shouldn't matter much for a closed system.
	(I assume refills will occur seldom - less than once per year)

I always use ethanol/water/dish washing liquid as a windscreen
cleaning fluid and it's less than half the price of the commercial 
"windscreen cleaner", so I suspect it's the same for 
propylene glycol/water vs. "Auto/Solar Antifreeze".

hope someone can clear the muddy waters of commerce.

albrecht


From MaxEper@cris.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1051 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!cnc047042.concentric.net!user
From: MaxEper@cris.com (Steve S)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Hot water for storing heat
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:51:42 -0600
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc047042.concentric.net

I've been thinking about storing heat (for home heating) with hot water.
The question is how. The 1500 gallon polyethelene stock tanks are cheap
($250-$300) but the manufacturer says they're only good to 120F, which
doesn't give you much useable heat storage. So, two questions...

1. What are some good high temp (say, 180F) tank options?

2. What would be the lowest temp that water is useful for heating,
assuming forced air heat and an in duct heat exchanger. Is 100F a good
number to calculate from?

Thanks,

Steve S


From MaxEper@cris.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1052 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!cnc047042.concentric.net!user
From: MaxEper@cris.com (Steve S)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Rad
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:35:31 -0600
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <MaxEper-1908962335320001@cnc047042.concentric.net>
References: <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc047042.concentric.net

In article <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news>, grjkgray@taranaki.ac.nz
(Geoff) wrote:

> Hi approx how many Kwatts per square meter (daily average) has the sun at 
> 33 deg latitude
> 
> Thanks Geoff
> -- 
> There Snow Place Like Home...

With the collector normal (perpendicular) to the sun the number is about
1kw/sq meter.

Steve S


From nevermind@to.reply Wed Aug 28 11:41:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1053 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mindspring.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!usenet
From: JustMe@my.house (JustMe)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:29:44 GMT
Organization: no.org
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: nevermind@to.reply
NNTP-Posting-Host: pa1dsp9.nr.infi.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1053 alt.energy.renewable:17206 alt.architecture.alternative:7703 sci.engr.lighting:5948

On 16 Aug 1996 11:25:28 -0400, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

*mostly snipped*

=>Cathy Woodgold is thinking about using 10 layers of thin plastic glazing
=>inside a south window, with a possible improvement: seal the lower edge and
=>sides of each layer but leave the top open somehow, so if the air temp inside
=>a glazing cavity is less than the room temp, the air stays there, but if it's
=>warmer, it rises into the room... This would reduce the heat loss back out
=>of the window, by keeping some of the glazing cavities cooler than if they
=>were all sealed. But a large area sandwich with thin airspaces might have
=>a thermal resistance from one layer to the next that is a lot less than the
=>convective resistance for vertical airflow, so leaving the top open might
=>not help a lot... Would it help to seal some of the cavities, with a little
=>water inside, to try to make heat pipes? Would this thing get so hot inside 
=>that the plastic would melt?

Interesting....
Melt point would likely depend on the plastic used, BUT
I had a set a plastic mini-blinds mounted _inside_ a window (between the
interior and exterior glazing) and used some of the temporary plastic
heat-shrink type stuff that's used for temp. insulated glazing (?).
The blinds are now kinda wavy (!). SO, I'd say use thin glass rather than
plastic. Or make sure the plastic used can withstand high temps w/no ill
effects.

=>Nick
=>

Not gonna try to follow the calcs. Just giving you an answer from MPE.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1054 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Hot water for storing heat
Date: 20 Aug 1996 08:56:41 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4vccm9$63s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Steve S <MaxEper@cris.com> wrote:

>I've been thinking about storing heat (for home heating) with hot water.
>The question is how. The 1500 gallon polyethelene stock tanks are cheap
>($250-$300) but the manufacturer says they're only good to 120F...

I wonder who makes them, and what shape they are? I see a few in the
Jade Mountain catalog, but they are more expensive.

>1. What are some good high temp (say, 180F) tank options?

A concrete septic tank? A site-built ferrocement tank, as described in
S B Watt's book? A plywood box lined with a single piece of EPDM rubber?
Some plastic 55 gallon drums full of water?

>2. What would be the lowest temp that water is useful for heating,
>assuming forced air heat and an in duct heat exchanger. Is 100F a good
>number to calculate from?

How much heat does your house need, and what would the water temperature be,
after a few days without sun?

The 2' x 2' Magic Aire SHW 2347 duct heat exchanger transfers 45K Btu/hour
between 125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1" H20 pressure drop.
A smaller water-air temperature difference would probably make proportionally
smaller heat flow, eg 100 F water and 68 F air might make 25K Btu/hour. 

Nick

Then again, you might store water in one of these...

               6" diam windmill        -----
                      ^
                    .   .
                  .   .   .               |
                .   .   .   .            3m
inner cone   ---->.       .   .           |
white inside.   .           .   .
          .   .    ------  -->.   .<-- 7 in
        .   .     | slot |      .   .
      .   .        ------         .   .<-- outer cone, black outside
................................................
        |            2.5m           |

Two 22 gauge Gl sheet cones were made and assembled as shown in the picture.

A 6 inch diameter fan windmill was fixed at the top of the outer cone as shown.
The solar heat (2.5 x 3/2 = 3.75 kW solar insolation) made the outer cone
66 C and the inner cone was 33 C. Four adjustable slots 4.5 in x 30 in were
made in the outer cone to obtain maximum flow rate of convection current to
turn the windmill. The temperature difference between inlets and outlet was
27 C. The following results were obtained:

    Free running, 2700 rpm      67 Watts, 970 rpm     92 Watts, 390 rpm

Mirrors were added to increase the insolation to about 5 kW. This produced
dT = 45-50 C. Now velocity increased to 13 m/sec (29 mph), 3 times the
previous figure. Output power was 250-300 W. This indicates an efficiency
of 250/5000 = 5%.

If we scale up to a (30 square meter = 20 kW average insolation) 300 square
foot dome house we should be able to see 250 x 20/5 = 1000 W, our expected
power output. Putting an insulating plastic film over the Gl sheet should
increase the output. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1055 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Rad
Date: 20 Aug 1996 09:40:32 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4vcf8g$6fl@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news> <MaxEper-1908962335320001@cnc047042.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Geoff <grjkgray@taranaki.ac.nz> wrote:

>Hi approx how many Kwatts per square meter (daily average) has the sun at 
>33 deg latitude

That depends on the place. San Diego gets a yearly average of 5.7 kWh/m^2/day
on a south-facing surface tilted at their north latitude, 32.73 degrees, ie
a daily average of 238 Watts/m^2. A two-axis tracking collector in San Diego
receives 7.4 kWh/m^2/day. A latitude-tilted surface in Tucson gets 6.5,
El Paso, 6.5, Abilene, 5.7, Midland, 6.0, San Angelo, 5.7, Waco, 5.4, Lufkin,
TX, 5.1, Shreveport, LA, 5.1, Jackson, MS, 5.1, Meridian, 4.9, Montgomery, AL,
5.1, Columbus, GA, 5.1, Macon, 5.1, Savannah, 5.1, and Charleston, SC, 5.1.

Or perhaps you were thinking of the southern hemisphere.

Nick



From kabzap@progressiveae.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1056 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: kabzap@progressiveae.com (Philip Kabza)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:06:03 GMT
Organization: Progressive Architecture Engineering Planning
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <321a34ff.40433642@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v74v3$e06@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <4v79fh$eid@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <321751E2.5FE7@ix.netcom.com> <4v7tlb$h7g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: kabzap@progressiveae.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: gra-mi3-30.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 20  3:11:22 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1056 alt.energy.renewable:17221 alt.architecture.alternative:7705 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8585

I remember reading a recipe once for fixing carp.  This solar shack
project  reminded me of that recipe, you know, the one where after you
nail it to a board, smoke it and marinate it and bake it, you throw
away the carp and eat the board.  

Also thought of that old saying about a silk purse and a sow's ear.

Last time I did a project like that, my mason came to me later and
said he would give me a hundred bucks toward the bulldozer time if I
got tempted to do another one.

Human energy is worth a lot of conserving too, and investing it where
the payback is worth it makes sense.  Maybe you could sell the shack
to the county historical folks and start fresh.  

Speaking of human energy, did you include the internal load of the
occupants body heat?  If these are young people, and there's two of
them in one room all night. . . it could be quite a bit.

Best of luck.
Philip Kabza CSI AIA
Progressive Architecture Engineering Planning
Grand Rapids Michigan USA
kabzap@progressiveae.com


From dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1057 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!cedez.cellbio.duke.edu!user
From: dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Hot water for storing heat
Date: 20 Aug 1996 18:07:26 GMT
Organization: Duke University
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <dan_settles-2008961410250001@cedez.cellbio.duke.edu>
References: <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net> <4vccm9$63s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cedez.cellbio.duke.edu

In article <4vccm9$63s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

> Steve S <MaxEper@cris.com> wrote:
> 
> >I've been thinking about storing heat (for home heating) with hot water.
> >The question is how. The 1500 gallon polyethelene stock tanks are cheap
> >($250-$300) but the manufacturer says they're only good to 120F...
> 
> I wonder who makes them, and what shape they are? I see a few in the
> Jade Mountain catalog, but they are more expensive.
> 
> >1. What are some good high temp (say, 180F) tank options?
> 
> A concrete septic tank? A site-built ferrocement tank, as described in
> S B Watt's book? A plywood box lined with a single piece of EPDM rubber?
> Some plastic 55 gallon drums full of water?

Hi Nick,
I keep forgetting to ask about this, but why do you use 130 degree F as
your target temperature?  Is this the maximum safe temperature for the
plastic in the collectors or in the 55 gallon drums, or is there some
other element in the solar closet design that doesn't hold up well to
warmer temperatures?  

Good luck with the youth hostel project.  If I lived a couple hundred
miles closer I'd come over and volunteer some time.  I look forward to
hearing about your design and the results.

Dan Settles


From john@nine7.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 28 11:41:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1058 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!nntp-ucb.barrnet.net!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!nine7.demon.co.uk
From: john <john@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Tir Gaia house update?
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 10:48:20 GMT
Organization: an ascii newshead's glass screen
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <840538100snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: john@nine7.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nine7.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: nine7.demon.co.uk

I've got this old newspaper article about this house belonging to David 
Stephan, Rhayader, Powys, Wales, Uk.
It was having its roof replaced with a greenhouse with internal shutters and 
already had water heat storage in the floors for his big windows. -- 

Yours sincerely....John G.*?*?*?*?*? Us Neuron's don't KNOW that much, period.
*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?
(Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech' power.)c?
(Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving
so as apathy doesn't drown lurkers)c?


From redrok@pclink.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1059 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!news.netserv.com!news.clark.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Rad
Message-ID: <321A8FE1.3892@pclink.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:26:09 -0700
References: <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 55

Hi Geoff;

Geoff wrote:
> 
> Hi approx how many Kwatts per square meter (daily average) has 
> the sun at 33 deg latitude

I assume you are talking about solar power in a solar collector.

I assume there is little difference between the latitude at which 
you live. Now obvously there are differences in the clarity of the
atmosphere but it is not worth worrying about.

A larger loss in the total energy received per day is clouds. They
are by far more important than the atmospheric clarity.

I also assume that the collecter is set normal to the sun at noon.
Normal means the collector is flat to the sun.

A good rule of thumb for the power input at solar noon is:
100  Watts / square foot
900  Watts / squarw yard
1000 Watts / square meter

If you want to calculate the power received with a collector that is 
not normal to the sun multiply the rule of thumb by the SINE of the
angle to the sun. 

The correction factor is approxamatly:
1.0 for 90 degrees
.98 for 80 degrees
.94 for 70 degrees
.87 for 60 degrees

This works best with the angles between 45 and 90 degrees. When the 
angle is less than about 45 degrees the light will start to reflect
>from  the surface instead of passing through to the collector.

-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever
Ignorance can be Fixed

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:43 EDT 1996
Article: 1060 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A solar shed for a youth hostel
Date: 21 Aug 1996 13:22:44 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4vfgl4$si3@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <321751E2.5FE7@ix.netcom.com> <4v7tlb$h7g@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <321a34ff.40433642@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1060 alt.energy.renewable:17253 alt.architecture.alternative:7712 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8598

Philip Kabza <kabzap@progressiveae.com> wrote:

>I remember reading a recipe once for fixing carp.  This solar shack
>project reminded me of that recipe, you know, the one where after you
>nail it to a board, smoke it and marinate it and bake it, you throw
>away the carp and eat the board.  

Hi Philip,

We are calling it a cabin now :-) Several people have put some significant
time and energy and money into it now, so the core shack may have to stay.
And it may be easier to fix up an old building than build anew here, permit-
wise. Plus the hostel director likes the look of the wood on the outside
(aesthetic tyrants again), and this IS recycling... And they really don't
have much money. Altho more than some poor rural east Indians... They can
afford things like chicken wire and cement. 

My New Zealand friend Dave looked at the place and also suggested tearing
it down, saying he'd now learned well that it takes a lot less work to build
something new. He also mentioned that down under, they have "demolition
centers," vast indoor warehouses full of used windows and doors, and even
2x4s for sale. And many people prefer to use those old materials for new
construction, not only because they cost less. Some people make interesting
distressed furniture out of the old house lumber, which is basically better
in quality than what is available today... 

But I agree with you in general, recalling the soybean recipe, where you
put some soybeans in a pot with a rock, and when the rock has dissolved,
they are done, and some people who tell me they would rather wear the box
the shoes came in than the shoes.

>Last time I did a project like that, my mason came to me later and
>said he would give me a hundred bucks toward the bulldozer time if I
>got tempted to do another one.

So you've learned that lesson too. I sort of naively like the idea of 
not having to completely start from scratch, since the biggest thing I've
ever built is our 2' x 2' x 8' solar closet test structure. 
 
>Human energy is worth a lot of conserving too, and investing it where
>the payback is worth it makes sense.  Maybe you could sell the shack
>to the county historical folks and start fresh.  

Good idea. And labor is not all that plentiful here. But I'm not sure
how historical it is...

>Speaking of human energy, did you include the internal load of the
>occupants body heat?  If these are young people, and there's two of
>them in one room all night. . . it could be quite a bit.

Interesting thought. It would depend on what they are doing. Perhaps
600 Btu/hr, out of the 1250 Btu/hr I guessed would be needed to keep
it warm on a cloudy day, if all those architecturally-interesting single
glazed windows and skylights could somehow be boarded up in December...

>Best of luck.

Thanks,

Nick



From p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk Wed Aug 28 11:41:44 EDT 1996
Article: 1061 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.service.emory.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!paperboy.wellfleet.com!news3.near.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iscm.ulst.ac.uk!news
From: Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:47:38 +0100
Organization: centre for Performance Research On the Built Environment, University of Ulster
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <321B056A.7D3@ulst.ac.uk>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: probe18.prbj.ulst.ac.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1061 alt.energy.renewable:17255 alt.architecture.alternative:7713 sci.engr.lighting:5958

Interesting thread.  Have you read the book by Brian Norton
"Solar Thermal energy Technology" published by Springer-Verlag
1992.

It contains chapters on Collectors and passive and hybrid
solar design of Buildings.

He is also the assistant editor of the Solar Energy journal
in charge of collector technology.

regards
-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Philip Griffiths,     PROBE, University of Ulster
TEL:+44 (0)1232 368238              Northern Ireland
FAX:+44 (0)1232 368239 E-MAIL p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk 
----------------------------------------------------


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1062 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Hot water for storing heat
Date: 21 Aug 1996 16:49:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 124
Message-ID: <4vfsov$2d1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net> <4vccm9$63s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <dan_settles-2008961410250001@cedez.cellbio.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Dan Settles <dan_settles@cellbio.duke.edu> wrote:

>Hi Nick,

Hi Dan :-)

>I keep forgetting to ask about this, but why do you use 130 degree F as
>your target temperature?

Howard Reichmuth, PE, who more or less invented the Copper Cricket, the
Ecotope (Pragtree Farm) parabolic concentrating greenhouse, etc, told me
that it would be pretty tough to get any higher temp than that. Another
good solar engineer, Fred Dubin, PE, from NYC of all places, told me the
same thing.

Let's see. Full sun is about 300 Btu/ft^2/hr = 0.174x10^-8x(T+460)^4
for a non-selective surface. For a selective surface with emissivity E,
this would be
               300 Btu/ft^2/hr = 0.174x10^-8xEx(T+460)^4 

...so the surface temperature of a layer of dark paint in the sun with E = 1
would be 184 F, I think, if it were insulated on the shady side, and had no
cover in front, and the surroundings were cold, and the only heat loss were
by radiation.

I suppose the surface temp of a layer of glass would be about the same,
if it had a still airspace underneath, then the black paint. The glass would
just heat up like the black paint did, until the re-radiated IR power equalled
the solar power input, if the incoming solar power had no other place to go. 

If the surroundings were at temp Ta (F), eg 30 F, not absolute zero, and
the plate were a black body, this equation would become

      300 Btu/ft^2/hr + 0.174x10-8(Ta+460) = 0.174x10^-8(T+460)^4 or
      300 Btu/ft^2/hr + 0.174x10-8(30+460) = 0.174x10^-8(T+460)^4, or
      300 Btu/ft^2/hr + 100 Btu/hr         = 0.174x10^-8(232+460)^4,
                                                         ^^^
ie the plate temp would go up from 184 to 232 F, because the plate
would be heated by the surroudings as well as the sun.

If the plate had an emissivity of 0.7, we might have

      300 Btu/ft^2/hr + 100 Btu/hr = 0.174x10^-8x0.7(297+460)^4.
                                                     ^^^
If we moved some air under the glazing, and heated some drums full of 120 F
water inside a solar closet, with the solar closet air heater glazing exposed
to the inside of an 80 F sunspace, we would have an average glazing temp of
Ta = 100 F, and with a glazing emissivity of 1 (glass is 0.88), we might get
a useful heat output of approximately Q, where 

   300 + 0.174x10-8(80+460)^4 Btu/hr = 0.174x10^-8(100 F + 460)^4 + Q, or

   300 + 148 Btu/hr = 171 + Q, so Q = 267 Btu/hr,

and the 171 Btu/hr of heat lost from the closet glazing surface would go
into the sunspace air, which would heat the house. Remove the sunspace and
expose the solar closet air heater glazing to 30 F air, and the closet glazing
temp becomes (120+30)/2 = 75 F, so we get

   300 + 0.174x10-8(30+460)^4 Btu/hr = 0.174x10^-8(75 F + 460)^4 + Q, ie
  
   300 + 100 Btu/hr = 143 + Q, so Q = 257 Btu/hr,

and the 43 Btu/hr of net loss from the glazing is lost to the outside air...

At this lower temperature, the convective loss from the glazing may be larger
than radiation loss, especially since the outside air will be moving, vs the
fairly still sunspace air. Let's see: if the closet glazing is like a window,
with moving 30 F outside air on one side and still 120 F air inside, it will
have an R-value of about 1, so we might figure the convective loss as

   (120-30)1 ft^2/R1 = 90 Btu/hr, vs 143 - 100 = 43 Btu/hr, net.

At what temperature does convective loss equal radiative loss? 

              (T-30)1 ft^2/R1 = 0.174x10^-8((T+30)/2+460)^4 - 100

At T = 80 F         50        >             122             - 100          
      100           70   about the same     171             - 100
     
At about 100 F, in this case. So if the air heater temp is more than 100 F,
we might use the radiation formula, and if it's less, we might use the R1
arithmetic. Or we might combine them, in a big complicated quartic equation,
with U = 1.5 + V/5 as the U-value for the airfilm on each side of the glazing,
with moving air at V mph... Mathematicians might enjoy that.

Iron, copper and tin oxides are somewhat selective (E ~0.7), and darker
than aluminum oxide. I wonder how to make galvanized iron rust in less
than 20 years... :-) H. Tabor wrote about slightly more complicated ways
of making galvanized iron selective.

>Is this the maximum safe temperature for the
>plastic in the collectors or in the 55 gallon drums,

I don't know. I'd guess the max is higher. Depends on how high you stack 'em.
I did try filling up a plastic paint pail with a lid with 130 F water, and
jumping on it, when Demon Dan@laser.net told me that was stupid :-)

>or is there some other element in the solar closet design that doesn't
>hold up well to warmer temperatures?  

I think it's worth using a small fan to make closet collection more efficient,
and my favorite Grainger fan for this, the 4C688 560 cfm fan, 10" diameter,
36 Watts, about $60, has an upper temp limit of 149 F.

I'd use polycarbonate vs polyethylene glazing for the solar closet, because
it is almost as good as glass at blocking longwave IR, 1% vs 77% transmission
for 80 F IR... And putting some black window screen under the glazing reduces
IR loss.

>Good luck with the youth hostel project.

Thanks. The only thing that's holding it up at the moment is a possible
administrative nightmare. We are meeting with architect Eric on Sunday (who
recently installed all the single pane windows in the cabin), who will be
doing a lovely "rendering" for the project, as a part of the admin smoothing
process. What we build, of course, might be quite different :-)

>If I lived a couple hundred miles closer I'd come over and volunteer...

There's a place to stay :-)

Nick



From woodgold@seismo.emr.ca Wed Aug 28 11:41:48 EDT 1996
Article: 1064 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!emr1!news
From: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca (Catherine woodgold)
Subject: Thermally Activated Shutters:  A Solar-Heated House Design
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: saw19.seismo.emr.ca
Message-ID: <DwI4wM.Bu4@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Sender: news@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca
Reply-To: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca
Organization: Natural Resources Canada/GSC/Seismology
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:02:46 GMT
Lines: 144



Summary:  Thermal expansion in a bar of metal is used to open and
close shutters, which insulate glazing at night and on dark, cloudy
days.  No electrically operated parts are required.  No human
intervention is required.  The shutters automatically open
whenever the sun is shining strongly enough, and close at other
times.  The sun's rays heat a roomful of black metal cans of
water, which are then used to heat the house.

Two thermal expansion bars, one in the solar closet and
one in a test airspace exposed to the glazing, experience
differential thermal expansion.  When the sun shines, the
test bar (bar #1) becomes longer than the solar closet bar.  This
activates levers, which extend first northwards, then
up, then southwards, successively magnifying the motion of the thermal
expansion bars by leverage from an imperceptible difference
in length to a 1-inch motion which is used to open the shutters.

Disclaimer:  This is just an idea.  It isn't thoroughly
thought out or tested.  End of disclaimer.

A double-glazed glass window, 36 feet long and 8 feet high, is
used.  Reflectors below and above the window approximately
double the amount of sunshine entering the window.  The window
is not used on a human-occupied room;  it is on a solar closet
filled with cans of water, painted black to absorb the sun's rays.

At night the window is insulated by a set of shutters, composed
of lightweight insulation 2 inches thick.  There are 8 shutters
which are 3 feet wide and 7.5 feet tall, and 2 shutters, at the
east and west ends of the window, which are 6 feet wide and
7.5 feet tall.  The window side of the shutters is composed
of a furry black material, which is designed to absorb the sun's
heat when the shutter is open, and to seal firmly against
the window when the shutter is closed, insulating the window
and preventing air currents from occurring in any space
between window and shutter.

The bottom 6 inches of the window is not used to collect
energy.  It is used as a test area, to determine automatically
whether the sun is shining strongly enough for it to be worthwhile
opening the shutters.  This test area contains 2 inches
of insulation on its top, bottom and north side;  inside this
insulation is a 2-inch-high, 2-inch-wide airspace which contacts
the glazing.  Inside the test area is a 36-foot-long thermal
expansion bar.  It is shaped like an I-beam but is only
1 inch wide.  This thermal expansion bar is made of materials
which maximize strength, rigidity, and thermal expansivity, and
minimize thermal mass.  It might be made of copper.  (I don't
know enough about various materials to choose one.)  Any commonly-used
metal would probably suffice.  The bar is painted black with the
same paint as the cans of water.  It is centred in the 2 by 2 inch
space, and held in place by 17 2 by 2 inch pieces of wood, spaced
one per 2 feet, with holes the right shape for the bar to pass
through easily.

4 inches to the north of the thermal expansion bar (TEB) is a
second TEB.  This TEB is in the same airspace as the solar closet,
as opposed to the first TEB (TEB #1) which is insulated off
>from  the solar closet but exposed to the glazing.
The western ends of both bars are firmly attached to the wall.
The eastern ends of the bars are attached to Lever # 1, which
extends 6 feet northwards into the solar closet.
(For this purpose, TEB #1 first passes through a hole in
some insulation;  its eastern 2 inches are in the solar closet
airspace.)

If TEB #1 is significantly warmer than TEB #2, it is also longer
by thermal expansion.  Therefore lever #1 feels a force tending
to move its northern end westward.  Lever #1 has no fulcrum;  only
the two TEB's and lever #2 are attached to it.
 
Lever #2 is attached at its bottom to the north end of
lever #1, and extends
upwards 7.75 feet.  It is attached to a fixed fulcrum 6 inches
above its bottom end.  When its bottom is pushed westward by
lever #1, its top end tends to move eastward.
 
Lever #3 is attached to lever #2 at the top northeast corner
of the solar closet.  It has a fulcrum 6 inches south of that
point.  The fulcrum is held stationary.  When its north end
is moved eastward by lever #2, its south end moves westward
and automatically operates the shutter-opening bar.
 

The shutter-opening bar runs along the top
of the shutters, 2 inches north of the glazing.
It has 1-inch protrusions which are attached to the shutters themselves
(or to 1-inch-long protrusions from the shutters) in such
a way that when it is moved westward one inch, the shutters
open.   (I admit I haven't quite figured out how this works,
but I'm convinced a simple geometry will accomplish the purpose.)
Moving it in the opposite direction closes the shutters.
When lever #3 moves further than is necessary to open or close
the shutters, the extra motion is absorbed by a spring which
forms the attachment between lever #3 and the shutter-opening
bar.  Another, much weaker, spring, attached to a little
lever on the shutter-opening bar, causes the shutters to
spring suddenly into open or closed position, rather than
opening gradually.
 
When in open position, the 6-foot-wide shutters are flat against
the east and west walls.  The other shutters are back-to-back
in pairs.  Half the shutters open westwards, half eastwards.
Thus, for most of the window, 6-foot-wide sections of window
are bared, and incoming sunshine is obstructed only by pairs of
open shutters (  :-)  which extend 3 feet into the room and have
a combined width of 4 inches.  At the ends of the window, 9-foot-wide
sections of window are unobstructed.
For almost all of the winter day,
at least half of the sunshine goes deep into the room and warms
the cans of water.  At noon, almost no sunshine is stopped by
the shutters.  The sunshine which does shine on the shutters
warms them, due to the black heat-absorbing material, and
warm air is generated which circulates by convection and
warms the cans of water.  Note that it's preferable to have the
sun shine directly on the cans.
 
Remarks:
A material expanding when warmed presumably only expands
an imperceptible amount, especially if differences of only a
few degrees exist.  However, it expands with tremendous
strength.   Magnifying the motion with levers creates a
much weaker force;  but since the original force is large,
the expanded force is presumably strong enough to move lightweight
shutters which are balanced on well-oiled hinges.  I don't
know how much magnification of the force is required;  the
above lever dimensions are just guesses.  But any required
magnification is theoretically possible to obtain.
 
On a cold night, TEB #1 becomes very cold.  It therefore acts
through the levers to press the shutters firmly against the window,
improving the seal and insulating well.
 

Cathy                                   TISSATAAFL
There is no frigate like the 'net 
To take us lands away; 
Nor any coursers like a pulse 
Of prancing packetry..





From solar3d@teleport.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:49 EDT 1996
Article: 1065 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!nntp-ucb.barrnet.net!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!usenet
From: Carlos Portela <solar3d@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Thermally Activated Shutters:  A Solar-Heated House Design
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 23:34:27 -0700
Organization: 3-D Software
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <321D50F3.20CE@teleport.com>
References: <DwI4wM.Bu4@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.100.165.67
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I)
To: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca

Catherine,

Regarding using expanding metal to open vents,
metal probably cannot expand enough.

What you need is a solar vent opener.  These are
very reliable and have been used successfully
for many years in greenhouses and coldframes.
They look like a thin shock absorber.
I believe they have a parafin-like compound
which expands and pushes a piston -- all this
sealed, of course (no mess).  They are available
>from  greenhouse supply companies, and renewable
energy dealers such as Jade Mountain.
For more info, see this web page at the
Jade Mountain web site:
http://www.indra.com/jade-mtn/fans.html

Sincerely,

Carlos Portela
-- 
3-D Software
P.O. Box 220, Mapleton OR  97453  USA
3dsoft@presys.com
http://www.teleport.com/~solar3d


From noel@asis.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:50 EDT 1996
Article: 1066 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wco.com!news
From: "noel" <noel@asis.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar metallurgy?
Date: 23 Aug 1996 07:32:19 GMT
Organization: West Coast Online's News Server - Not responsible for content
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <01bb9068$ddd76520$1c7063ce@humboldt.net.humboldt.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port14.asis.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

  I have a 6 foot alluminum satalite dish which I am
polishing to use as a solar concentrator. It can easily
incinerate a soda can and I believe that on a larger scale
commercial quantities of all metals could be melted this
way cheaply and pollution free almost anywhere (including
space!). I am looking for formation on this and starting a
rather humble web page on this at
http:/www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3307/solmet.html  If
you know anything about this or have any brilliant ideas on
the subject please email me at  noel@asis.com 

thank you

 Noel Adamson
 pob 1448
 Redway, CA
 USA


From an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Wed Aug 28 11:41:52 EDT 1996
Article: 1067 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!an588
From: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Compressible insulation for Trombe Wall
Date: 22 Aug 1996 15:56:25 GMT
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Lines: 69
Sender: an588@freenet3.carleton.ca (Catherine Woodgold)
Message-ID: <4vhvv9$kij@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
Reply-To: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca


In his book "New Inventions In Low-Cost Solar Heating:  100 Daring
Schemes Tried and Untried" (a good book;  Brick House Publishing 
Company, 1979), William Shurcliff says of Trombe walls:
 
"There is no simple, effective and inexpensive way to
interpose, between wall and glazing, a thick insulating
layer that will stop heat loss on cold nights."
 
I disagree.
 
One is in danger of being wrong whenever one generalizes
"There is no...".
It's usually safer to say "I know of no ..." or, more optimistically
still, "I have not yet figured out a way to ..."
 
Warning:  the plan described here is just an idea.  I don't
claim that it's effective or safe.  In fact, I suspect it's
a fire hazard, especially if the sun shines on the insulation.
[grin at Nick, who thinks I worry about fire too much  :->   ]
 
Most insulation is mostly air.  Some kinds of insulation
can be compressed by removing the air, and reconstituted.
This scheme makes use of such insulation.
 
Suppose there is an 18-inch space between glazing and Trombe wall.
The compressible insulation consists of 10 sheets of plastic of
any colour, each as large as the Trombe wall and glazing, and
9 sheets of gauze (loosely woven fabric) of the same size.  
The sheets of plastic
and gauze are affixed to the ceiling between the Trombe wall 
and glazing, alternating the two materials, such that a half-
inch airspace separates each, for a total of 9 inches of
thickness.  The plastic contains many U-shaped slits. 
These stay closed by gravity when only gentle puffs of air 
try to get through, but fly open when the insulation is
forcibly compressed and air rushes out.  The gauze also
slows down gently convecting air but allows a flow of air
through it when compressing.  The bottoms of the layers
are attached to a nine-inch-wide piece of plywood which
lies on the floor between glazing and Trombe wall when
the insulation is in use.
 
Two ropes are attached to the top of the glazing, each 
one-third of the way along.  Each rope passes straight 
down along the side of the insulation, through numerous
hoops attached to the insulation, under the plywood going
north, back up through numerous hoops attached to the
north side of the insulation, through a pulley on the
ceiling between insulation and Trombe wall, 
through the slit at the top of the Trombe wall into the
room, and back down, to be attached to a hook on the
floor of the room.
 
To compress the insulation, just pull on the ropes.
The insulation is lifted.  When the ropes have been
pulled as far as possible, tie them to the hooks on
the floor to keep them in place.  The insulation
rests in a 1-foot-high space at the top of the glazing.
The top 1 foot of glazing is therefore not used
efficiently.
 
(See also the automatic shutters that use thermal
expansion to open and close, which I thought of after
I had written this, but posted yesterday.)
 
 
 



From dmartin@innet.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:53 EDT 1996
Article: 1068 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!nntp-ucb.barrnet.net!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!qwknews.com!usenet
From: dmartin@innet.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Thermally Activated Shutters:  A Solar-Heated House Design
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 01:27:30 GMT
Organization: Around the House
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <321e507f.16264281@qwknews.com>
References: <DwI4wM.Bu4@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Reply-To: dmartin@innet.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 4269.innet.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227

>>Two thermal expansion bars, one in the solar closet and
>>one in a test airspace exposed to the glazing, experience
>>differential thermal expansion. 

	Consider using an automotive "automatic" choke actuator.
-- 
Regards,
Derald Martin


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:41:55 EDT 1996
Article: 1069 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Roofponds in Austin?
Date: 25 Aug 1996 14:04:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4vq4iq$k61@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <321DBEBF.24A1@mail.sunsetdirect.com> <4vo5d4$em4_001@ts.indy.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8670 alt.energy.renewable:17424 alt.architecture.alternative:7776 alt.solar.thermal:1069

>   Mike Rice <mikerice@mail.sunsetdirect.com> wrote:

>>I'm designing a tight, well insulated house with an open floor plan.
>>I need 18K btuH to cool the house...

Would that be the peak cooling load? I wonder about the average...

I guess we are more concerned with cooling than heating in Austin, TX.
Here are some NREL climatic average data... 

          24 hour   daytime  nightime  average sun on  
          avg temp  high     low       s wall  horiz surface

Jan           49 F  59 F     39 F      1200     940 Btu/ft^2/day
Aug           85    96       74         820    2010

In August, the average windspeed is 7.5 mph, and the average humidity ratio
of the air is W = 0.0153 #water/#dry air, corresponding to saturated air at
69 F, according to the ASHRAE HOF, which also says the 5%-ile design wet bulb
temp in Austin is 77F. Does nightime radiant cooling improve this? Where are
the ASHRAE gurus? The elevation is 620', and the air pressure is 14.4 psia,
vs 14.7 at sea level.

A 1-story 2000 ft^2 house in Austin with 1400 ft^2 of walls with an average
US R-value of 10, and 2000 ft^2 of R1 ceiling, under a shallow 69 F roofpond
with some sort of shading above the south side, might have a simple electrical
model that looks like this, when it's 95 F outside: 

                    /--      resistors    --\
           95 ---www-------------------------www--- 69 
               0.0071 = 10/1400 | 1/2000 = 0.0005
                                | 
                                Thouse

The heat that flows from the walls through the roof (with some help from a
ceiling fan) might be (95-69)/(0.0071+0.0005) = 3401 Btu/hour, so the
temperature difference between the inside of the house and the ceiling might
be 3401 x 1/2000 = 1.7 F, ie the house might be 70.7 F inside in August, so
it might not need any other form of summer cooling. It takes about 1000 Btu
to evaporate a pound of water, so 3.4 lb water/hr, ie 0.007 gpm or 10 gallons
per day of water might cool the roof in August.

For a long, hot, humid spell, we might store some cool water in the house, and
design the ceiling with an airgap over a radiant barrier, with a large hole
in it, to allow warm air to flow up. Or we might not change the ceiling. The
ASHRAE HOF says the 5%-ile design dry bulb temp is 97 F in Austin, with a mean
coincident wet bulb temp of 74 F, and note c says this only applies to the
month of July. Perhaps this means that a worse heating load combination of
outdoor temperature and humidity happens less than 5% of the time, in July,
ie less than 1.5 days. Let's call it 2 days. Now suppose the radiant barrier
has an R-value of 14 for downward heatflow. How much 69 F water would we have
to store in the house to keep it at, say, 75 F, for those 2 days? 

If the house is warmer than 74 F, this model might apply:

           97 ---www-------------------------www--- 74 
               0.0071 = 10/1400 | 1/2000 = 0.0005
                                | 
                                Thouse

In this case, with no thermal mass in the house, 3009 Btu/hr flow up through
the ceiling, and the house temp would be 75.5 F. Oh my. We may have exceeded
our comfort limit. We might have to take off our 3-piece suits. How can we
prevent this catastrophe? We need a house capacitor:

           97 ---www-------------------------www--- 74 
               0.0071 = 10/1400 | 14/2000 = 0.007
                                | 
                                |----Thouse = 72 F.
                                |
                              -----  C
                              -----
                                |
                               ---

How big does C have to be, to keep the house at 72 F for two days, starting
with 69 F water? The temperature rise is 3 F, and Q = C dT, so Q = 3C, and 
over two days, the house will gain 48(97-72)/0.007 = 171K Btu of heat from
the walls and 48(74-72)/0.0071 = 13.5K Btu of heat from the ceiling, a total
of 185K Btu, so C = 62K pounds or 7700 gallons or 961 ft^3 or a 10' cube of
water. Or we might just live with the higher temperature, or go for a swim in
the roofpond, or make the walls of adobe, or strawbales with a masonry floor. 

Could this house be dehumidified with a dessicant sunspace floor (a thin
layer of reinforced concrete, with some foam underneath?), vented to the
outside during the afternoon and to the house just before dawn? 

A flat roof with a 2" deep roof pond might need less materials than a
conventional roof, and add fire protection, reducing insurance costs. With
an average 49 F January temperature and an 940 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling
on a horizontal surface, we might float an R1 pool cover on the roof, so
the pond water at temperature T might lose 24 hours x (T-49) x 1 ft^2/R1
on an average day, so T = 49 + 940/24 = 88 F. So this house might not need
any other form of winter heating, in Austin.

Nick

PS: Our solar closet paper is at http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From blrman@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 28 11:41:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1070 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Larry Coutlee <blrman@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Roofponds in Austin?
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:12:11 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <32207B5B.B28@ix.netcom.com>
References: <321DBEBF.24A1@mail.sunsetdirect.com> <4vo5d4$em4_001@ts.indy.net> <4vq4iq$k61@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: als-il1-18.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 25  7:04:07 AM PDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8671 alt.energy.renewable:17426 alt.architecture.alternative:7777 alt.solar.thermal:1070

Nick, youNick Pine wrote:
> 
> >   Mike Rice <mikerice@mail.sunsetdirect.com> wrote:
> 
> >>I'm designing a tight, well insulated house with an open floor plan.
> >>I need 18K btuH to cool the house...
> 
> Would that be the peak cooling load? I wonder about the average...
> 
> I guess we are more concerned with cooling than heating in Austin, TX.
> Here are some NREL climatic average data...
> 
>           24 hour   daytime  nightime  average sun on
>           avg temp  high     low       s wall  horiz surface
> 
> Jan           49 F  59 F     39 F      1200     940 Btu/ft^2/day
> Aug           85    96       74         820    2010
> 
> In August, the average windspeed is 7.5 mph, and the average humidity ratio
> of the air is W = 0.0153 #water/#dry air, corresponding to saturated air at
> 69 F, according to the ASHRAE HOF, which also says the 5%-ile design wet bulb
> temp in Austin is 77F. Does nightime radiant cooling improve this? Where are
> the ASHRAE gurus? The elevation is 620', and the air pressure is 14.4 psia,
> vs 14.7 at sea level.
> 
> A 1-story 2000 ft^2 house in Austin with 1400 ft^2 of walls with an average
> US R-value of 10, and 2000 ft^2 of R1 ceiling, under a shallow 69 F roofpond
> with some sort of shading above the south side, might have a simple electrical
> model that looks like this, when it's 95 F outside:
> 
>                     /--      resistors    --\
>            95 ---www-------------------------www--- 69
>                0.0071 = 10/1400 | 1/2000 = 0.0005
>                                 |
>                                 Thouse
> 
> The heat that flows from the walls through the roof (with some help from a
> ceiling fan) might be (95-69)/(0.0071+0.0005) = 3401 Btu/hour, so the
> temperature difference between the inside of the house and the ceiling might
> be 3401 x 1/2000 = 1.7 F, ie the house might be 70.7 F inside in August, so
> it might not need any other form of summer cooling. It takes about 1000 Btu
> to evaporate a pound of water, so 3.4 lb water/hr, ie 0.007 gpm or 10 gallons
> per day of water might cool the roof in August.
> 
> For a long, hot, humid spell, we might store some cool water in the house, and
> design the ceiling with an airgap over a radiant barrier, with a large hole
> in it, to allow warm air to flow up. Or we might not change the ceiling. The
> ASHRAE HOF says the 5%-ile design dry bulb temp is 97 F in Austin, with a mean
> coincident wet bulb temp of 74 F, and note c says this only applies to the
> month of July. Perhaps this means that a worse heating load combination of
> outdoor temperature and humidity happens less than 5% of the time, in July,
> ie less than 1.5 days. Let's call it 2 days. Now suppose the radiant barrier
> has an R-value of 14 for downward heatflow. How much 69 F water would we have
> to store in the house to keep it at, say, 75 F, for those 2 days?
> 
> If the house is warmer than 74 F, this model might apply:
> 
>            97 ---www-------------------------www--- 74
>                0.0071 = 10/1400 | 1/2000 = 0.0005
>                                 |
>                                 Thouse
> 
> In this case, with no thermal mass in the house, 3009 Btu/hr flow up through
> the ceiling, and the house temp would be 75.5 F. Oh my. We may have exceeded
> our comfort limit. We might have to take off our 3-piece suits. How can we
> prevent this catastrophe? We need a house capacitor:
> 
>            97 ---www-------------------------www--- 74
>                0.0071 = 10/1400 | 14/2000 = 0.007
>                                 |
>                                 |----Thouse = 72 F.
>                                 |
>                               -----  C
>                               -----
>                                 |
>                                ---
> 
> How big does C have to be, to keep the house at 72 F for two days, starting
> with 69 F water? The temperature rise is 3 F, and Q = C dT, so Q = 3C, and
> over two days, the house will gain 48(97-72)/0.007 = 171K Btu of heat from
> the walls and 48(74-72)/0.0071 = 13.5K Btu of heat from the ceiling, a total
> of 185K Btu, so C = 62K pounds or 7700 gallons or 961 ft^3 or a 10' cube of
> water. Or we might just live with the higher temperature, or go for a swim in
> the roofpond, or make the walls of adobe, or strawbales with a masonry floor.
> 
> Could this house be dehumidified with a dessicant sunspace floor (a thin
> layer of reinforced concrete, with some foam underneath?), vented to the
> outside during the afternoon and to the house just before dawn?
> 
> A flat roof with a 2" deep roof pond might need less materials than a
> conventional roof, and add fire protection, reducing insurance costs. With
> an average 49 F January temperature and an 940 Btu/ft^2/day of sun falling
> on a horizontal surface, we might float an R1 pool cover on the roof, so
> the pond water at temperature T might lose 24 hours x (T-49) x 1 ft^2/R1
> on an average day, so T = 49 + 940/24 = 88 F. So this house might not need
> any other form of winter heating, in Austin.
> 
> Nick
> 
> PS: Our solar closet paper is at http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.htm


Nick, you have WAY too much free time on your hands.


From baby@gate.net Wed Aug 28 11:41:58 EDT 1996
Article: 1071 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news
From: Peter Dayton <baby@gate.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar pool heaters
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:22:48 -0400
Organization: CyberGate, Inc.
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <3220C428.72F0@gate.net>
Reply-To: baby@gate.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: pslfl2-48.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)

Can anyone recommend a good source to review the various designs of
solar pool heating systems? I need to replace my  aging black ABS 1 1/2"
system with new technology. Thanks


From redrok@pclink.com Wed Aug 28 11:42:00 EDT 1996
Article: 1072 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.protocom.com!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: solar metallurgy?
Message-ID: <3221B9BA.5AD8@pclink.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:50:34 -0700
References: <01bb9068$ddd76520$1c7063ce@humboldt.net.humboldt.net>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 40

noel wrote:
> 
>   I have a 6 foot alluminum satalite dish which I am
> polishing to use as a solar concentrator. It can easily
> incinerate a soda can and I believe that on a larger scale
> commercial quantities of all metals could be melted this
> way cheaply and pollution free almost anywhere (including
> space!). I am looking for formation on this and starting a
> rather humble web page on this at
> http:/www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3307/solmet.html  If
> you know anything about this or have any brilliant ideas on
> the subject please email me at  noel@asis.com
> 
> thank you
> 
>  Noel Adamson
>  pob 1448
>  Redway, CA
>  USA

I supose about a million people have said this but;
Try this instead as it didn't work the first time.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3307/solmet.html
-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever
Ignorance can be Fixed

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:42:02 EDT 1996
Article: 1073 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Roofponds in Austin?
Date: 26 Aug 1996 16:07:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <4vt05e$1ul@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <321DBEBF.24A1@mail.sunsetdirect.com> <4vo5d4$em4_001@ts.indy.net> <4vq4iq$k61@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32207B5B.B28@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8685 alt.energy.renewable:17469 alt.architecture.alternative:7788 alt.solar.thermal:1073

Larry Coutlee  <blrman@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Nick, youNick Pine wrote:

>> >   Mike Rice <mikerice@mail.sunsetdirect.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >>I'm designing a tight, well insulated house with an open floor plan.
>> >>I need 18K btuH to cool the house...

Larry, do you have to requote the  whole  thing?

>Nick, you have WAY too much free time on your hands.

Hire me to help you design a solar house. Stop me before I post again.

Nick



From woodgold@seismo.emr.ca Wed Aug 28 11:42:04 EDT 1996
Article: 1074 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!emr1!news
From: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca (Catherine woodgold)
Subject: Re: Thermally Activated Shutters:  A Solar-Heated House Design
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: saw19.seismo.emr.ca
Message-ID: <DwrHCH.M61@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Sender: news@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca
Reply-To: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca
Organization: Natural Resources Canada/GSC/Seismology
References: <321D50F3.20CE@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:09:53 GMT
Lines: 57

Carlos said,

>Regarding using expanding metal to open vents,
>metal probably cannot expand enough.

When I made that design, I used my intuition to guess how much
metal would expand.

I find in S. Baer's Sunspots that copper and aluminum both expand
roughly 0.00001 (per degree F, I think it is).

So, with the design I gave, with a 1 degree temperature difference
the shutter-opening bar would move something like 60 times as far
as I said I needed it to.

The 36-foot-long bars I specified would expand by about
0.004 inches per degree.  The levers I described multiply the
motion by about 7000 times.  That's too much.  Suppose the
levers are modified to multiply by only about 100.  Then it would
be easy to obtain the 1-inch motion of the shutter-opening bar.

Suppose the doors are light and well-hinged enough that the
shutter-opening bar requires only one pound of force (over
one inch, moving slowly) to open or close the shutters.
Then the thermal expansion bars must be able to take 100
times that force ... 100 pounds.  It's easy to make a metal
bar that does this.

Likely there are cheaper designs, but my design is certainly
possible and not very expensive.  I think it can be modified so
the heat falling on the test bar is also collected.

S. Baer (Sunspots) describes some designs using the motion of a volatile
fluid from one container to another, to open and close shutters.
They're probably better.  I wouldn't use freon or anything that's
bad for the ozone layer.  Maybe alcohol.

I'm hoping to design something that opens and closes windows,
built mostly from materials I find around my house.  I'm not
sure I'll succeed.  I reckon that there are probably several
months in the year here where the house can be heated simply
by opening the windows whenever it's warmer outside than inside.
Vice versa for cooling in summer.  Oh, yes.  Rubber bands.
Identical sets of rubber bands, outside and inside.  They contract
when heated.  Ought to be able to close a lightweight window
that way.  Just have to make sure it seals well enough, when
closed, to make it worthwhile.  (even a poorly sealing version
can be useful in weather where the average outdoor temperature
is only slightly different from the desired average indoor
temperature.  E.g. suppose it's warmer outside for 8 hours
every day.)


Cathy                                   TISSATAAFL
There cannot be a crisis today; my schedule is already full.  :-)




From an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Wed Aug 28 11:42:05 EDT 1996
Article: 1075 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!an588
From: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Low-cost, easy window transformation!
Date: 22 Aug 1996 16:01:53 GMT
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Lines: 219
Sender: an588@freenet3.carleton.ca (Catherine Woodgold)
Message-ID: <4vi09h$km5@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
Reply-To: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca


Transform existing windows from net heat losers in winter
into net heat gainers, and from net heat gainers in summer
into net heat exporters.
 
Windows lose a large fraction of a house's winter heat
by conduction through the glass.  Even double glazing
loses several times as much heat as the same area of
normally-insulated walls.  Heat also conducts in through
the window on hot summer days, and enters in the form
of sunshine.  For most windows, the winter sunshine that
enters doesn't provide as much heat as the heat that is
lost by conduction over the day and night.
 
If there are cool summer nights, no active air-conditioning 
is used, and if the window gets
some winter sunshine, it is IN PRINCIPLE possible to
transform the window so that it is a net heat gainer in
winter and a net heat exporter in summer.  In extreme
cases, for example if the window is shaded and only gets
half an hour of sunshine a day in the winter, to do so might
require very expensive or currently non-existent materials.
However, I believe that for many ordinary windows, the
goal can be achieved easily using very low-cost materials
applied to the inside of the window.      In any case,
the window can be improved to lose less heat, even if
it doesn't make it to the net-heat-gainer level.
 
Disclaimer:  These are just ideas.  I haven't thoroughly
tested them.  They may not work as claimed.  They may not
be safe.  For example, if the sun shines on the window in
summer configuration, dangerously high temperatures may
result.  Other hazards may also occur.  End of disclaimer.
 
Acknowledgement:  Thanks to somebody who recently drew
attention to a collector design by S. Baer, which led 
me to think of these ideas.
 
Before doing any of these schemes, get rid of summer sun
shining on the window, preferably with a tree or awning.
A reflective shutter can be installed to reflect more
sunlight into the window in winter, and repositioned to 
keep sun off in summer.  For a cheap, easy method, take
a piece of cardboard the size of the window and cover
it with aluminum foil from the grocery store.  
(I did this for one window for a fraction of a dollar ...
Canadian!    :-)  Place it
in the window, next to the outer layer of glazing.
The foil reflects away most of the sun's heat, but it
does absorb some, reducing the effectiveness as compared
to an outdoor reflector, and possibly creating a fire
hazard.  The cardboard and foil are light and easily
lifted away when someone wants daylight in the room.
 
Also before doing these schemes, make the window airtight,
either with calking or by applying a layer of plastic film
sealed at all edges.
 
Note that in many cases, simply opening the window on
cool summer nights and on warm autumn or spring afternoons,
and closing it at other times of day, is much more 
effective than the methods proposed here.  However, these
methods don't require daily attention, and they
insulate the window during the much
longer time of day when the outside air is an undesirable 
temperature.  (I'm thinking of designs using simple springs
and levers to automatically open and close the windows at 
appropriate times.)
 
SCHEME NUMBER 1:  simpler, less effective
 
Apply a single layer of transparent plastic film to the
window.  Have a space of at least an inch between glass
and plastic.  Attach the film with tape.  In summer, have
it closed at the top and sides, and open at the bottom.
In winter, have it closed at the bottom and open at the
top.  Masking tape might be used for the temporary 
sealing.
 
That's it.
 
How does it work?
 
In summer, when it's cool outside, the air next to the
glass becomes cool by conduction.  The cooler air tends
to fall out the bottom, being replaced by warmer room air.
Thus, heat is lost through the window and cool air
enters the room.
 
When it's hotter outside than inside in the summer, the
air in the hatlike (open at bottom, closed at top) 
airspace between plastic and glass also becomes hotter
than the room air.  Since hot air tends to rise, the air
remains in the hatlike airspace and doesn't convect
into the room.  The heat enters the room only by slowly
conducting through the plastic. Since the glass has hot
air next to it, less heat conducts in through the glass
than if the glass had room-temperature air in it.
 
In winter, the situation is reversed.  If a warm
afternoon occurs where the temperature outside is
warmer than inside for a few hours (in spring or
autumn, perhaps), warm air convects from the cuplike
(open at top, closed at bottom) airspace up into
the room, but if it's cold out, cold air sits in
the cuplike airspace and doesn't convect into the
room.  Furthermore, when the sun shines in winter,
most of the sun's heat shines right through the
glass and plastic and into the room.  In a climate
where it seldom gets above room temperature in winter,
the plastic could be sealed at top and bottom in
winter, but left open at the top in spring and autumn.
Sealing at the top avoids the entry into the room of
cold air when stray eddies of air occur.
 
SCHEME NUMBER 2:  more complex
 
Apply many layers of plastic to the window.  Use slices
of cardboard tubes to space them:  one spacer at each corner
each time a new layer of plastic is to be added.
This is the configuration (layers listed in order,
airspaces indented):
 
    outside air
glass
    2-inch airspace ("outer airspace")
black cloth heat absorber
3 layers plastic, spaced half-inch apart
    2-inch airspace, always open at top
3 layers plastic
    2-inch airspace, always open at top
3 layers plastic
    room air
 
The outer airspace is opened at the bottom in summer,
and opened at the top in winter.  In summer, the black
cloth is removed.  In winter, when daylight is desired,
the black cloth is removed, and then replaced when someone
is finished with the room, as one would turn off a
lightswitch.  With no black cloth, much sunlight is
lost by being reflected back outside by the many
layers of plastic, but some heat still comes in and
little heat is lost.  The inner layers of plastic don't
do much in the summer.
 
Daylight can come in, but people probably can't see
out through all those layers.
 
For colder climates, positioning the black cloth closer
to the room, with several layers of (plastic and glass)
glazing between it and the outside, is probably better.
 
Various changes can be made to the shape of the 
cuplike or hatlike airspaces, to encourage convection.
A spacer can be inserted, dividing most of the airspace
into two sections:  one for air going up, the other for
air going down.  If the spacer is parallel to the glazing,
an advantage is that the air on the two sides will
tend to be different temperatures, thus starting the
convection;  it also serves at times as an extra
insulating layer.  However, the airstreams are an awkward
shape and will interfere with each other where they are
let into the room.  With the spacer perpendicular
to the glazing, the two airstreams are separated into
left and right halves and don't interfere much after
leaving the window.  The best of both may perhaps be
achieved with a diagonal spacer, which twists into
a perpendicular position just before exiting the window.
 
With or without a spacer, one side of the airspace
may open into the room at a lower level than the other.
For example, a simple hatlike airspace for summer could
be shaped like this:
 
    sssssssssssssssssssss   <-- top of window
    s                   s
    s                   s
    s                   s
    s         |         s
    s         |         s
    s         |         s
    s         |         s
    s         |         s
    ooo       |         s   <-- bottom of window
       oooooo |         s
             oooooo     s
                   oooooo
 
Well, I can't draw very well in ASCII.  This is just a layer
of plastic film attached to a window, sealed ("s") on most
edges, left open ("o") at the bottom, and with the bottom
cut or folded on a diagonal.  (And with an optional spacer  
("|") shown.)  The difference in opening
height creates an assymetry between the left and right
halves of the airspace, tending to give a boost to the
starting-up of convection.  Cool air will tend to fall out
the lower part, and warm room air will tend to go in the upper
part of the opening.   The spacer ("|") is optional;  it
can be a narrow strip of plastic film taped perpendicular
to the glazing.  I imagine getting all tangled up in the
tape when trying to do this, and messing up the view too,
so I might just do the diagonal opening and never mind the
spacer.
 
The upper two-thirds of the spacer is good for both summer and
winter.   For winter, the lower part of the spacer must be
removed, and an upper part should be added.  A rectangular
prism, made of wire and covered with plastic film on four
sides, could be inserted at the bottom in summer and at the
top in winter;  it would form a channel half the width of
the window, and serve as the movable part of the spacer as
well as the part of the convection channel that extends
below or above the window.  Sorry I can't explain that
more clearly in the time available.
 
 
 
 



From p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk Wed Aug 28 11:42:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1076 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iscm.ulst.ac.uk!news
From: Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Low-cost, easy window transformation!
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:51:55 +0100
Organization: centre for Performance Research On the Built Environment, University of Ulster
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3222B72B.32F0@ulst.ac.uk>
References: <4vi09h$km5@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: probe18.prbj.ulst.ac.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)

Catherine,

These are interesting schemes, have a look at the work by Norton and
Lo on Thermosyphoning Air Panels.  These use the same techniques
which you suggest.

References can be found on good research databases, most articles are
in Solar Energy.

you could also look at Solar Energy Thermal Technology, B Norton
Springer-Verlag, London 1992.

Also a window in the northern hemisphere facing south will, collect
more energy throughout the year than it loses if low-e films have been
utilised in its manufacture, see

Low-E Glazing Design Guide - Johnson, Butterwork-Heinemann, NY, 1991.


regards

Philip




-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Philip Griffiths,     PROBE, University of Ulster
TEL:+44 (0)1232 368238              Northern Ireland
FAX:+44 (0)1232 368239 E-MAIL p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk 
----------------------------------------------------


From p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk Wed Aug 28 11:42:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1077 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iscm.ulst.ac.uk!news
From: Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Thermally Activated Shutters:  A Solar-Heated House Design
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:57:33 +0100
Organization: centre for Performance Research On the Built Environment, University of Ulster
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3222B87D.1F8F@ulst.ac.uk>
References: <DwI4wM.Bu4@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca> <321e507f.16264281@qwknews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: probe18.prbj.ulst.ac.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)

dmartin@innet.com wrote:
> 
> >>Two thermal expansion bars, one in the solar closet and
> >>one in a test airspace exposed to the glazing, experience
> >>differential thermal expansion.
> 
>        

The material for this is called a "memory metal".

regards

-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Philip Griffiths,     PROBE, University of Ulster
TEL:+44 (0)1232 368238              Northern Ireland
FAX:+44 (0)1232 368239 E-MAIL p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk 
----------------------------------------------------


From woodgold@seismo.emr.ca Wed Aug 28 11:42:10 EDT 1996
Article: 1078 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!emr1!news
From: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca (Catherine woodgold)
Subject: Roof air collector idea
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: saw19.seismo.emr.ca
Message-ID: <Dwt4r9.FwJ@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Sender: news@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca
Reply-To: woodgold@seismo.emr.ca
Organization: Natural Resources Canada/GSC/Seismology
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:33:09 GMT
Lines: 70


Somebody Oughta Manufacture This

How would this be for a low-cost solar heat collector?
 
It's made of collapsible air ducts.  Round ducts of this type
already exist.  They're just a loose spring, covered with
plastic.  They flatten down very small for shipping, and are
lightweight and low in cost.
 
The central duct has a semi-circular cross-section,
instead of round.  It is made of dark-coloured plastic film.
The radius of the semicircle is 14 inches, for just over
2 square feet of cross-sectional air flow.
 
An outer duct of greenhouse-type transparent plastic film
has a 16-inch radius, also semicircular.
 
The collector would be sold in a kit containing two ducts
(rather long), a lot of two-ended clips (spacers), a fan,
a thermostat, and one-ended clips for weights.
 
The user puts the dark duct inside the clear duct with the
flat sides touching.  The user uses lots of little plastic
2-inch-long spacers to attach the two ducts together.  These
conveniently snap in place on the wire of the ducts and are
shaped such that they're unlikely to tear the plastic film.
The user also attaches one-ended clips to the edges of the
outer duct.  These clips have little plastic bags attached
to them.  The user finds some rocks and puts them in the
bags for weights.
 
Then the user drapes the duct over the roof, winding it
back and forth a couple of times.  It has to be attached
in a few places, in addition to being held down by weights.
The two ends come in a window.  The fan is placed just inside
one of the ends, blowing air into it.  The thermostat is
placed in the duct on the roof.  The fan comes on whenever
the air in the duct gets warm from the sun.

Snow would tend to slide off.  The collector should go
up-and-down the roof, not horizontally, to aid snow
shedding.  A one-foot space between winds of the collector
allows a place for snow to go.
 
The wind is a big problem.  Hopefully the weights take
care of that.
 
 
Modifications:
-- have a quarter-inch-thick layer of soft insulation
   on the flat side of each duct.
 
-- have the ducts rectangular rather than semicircular.
   Have insulation on the back and sides.
 
-- one dark and two clear semicircular ducts, three different
   sizes, for double glazing.
 
-- rectangular ducts for the inner, dark duct and one clear
   duct, and a semicircular outer clear duct to shed snow.
 
-- The inner duct is dark on the bottom and clear on top.
 

Cathy                                   TISSATAAFL
All computers wait at the same speed.  :-)





From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Aug 28 11:42:11 EDT 1996
Article: 1079 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: sunspace/solar closet symbiosis
Date: 28 Aug 1996 01:21:08 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <500l04$i1o@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:17524 alt.solar.thermal:1079 alt.architecture.alternative:7804

Solar closet glazing loss ends up warming sunspace air, which warms the house,
so that heat is not really lost. This symbiosis is similar to what Bill
Shurcliff calls "Khanh's radically new approach to increasing the useful
output of a flat plate collector panel: scheme employing a cheap, laterally-
contiguous slave panel," in _New Inventions in Low-Cost Solar Heating--
100 Daring Schemes Tried and Untried_, except that Khanh just used his
"sunspace heat" to keep the collector warmer, with a larger 2nd layer of
glazing, and a dark surface below the collector.

Just adding another layer of glazing to a solar closet is different. How can
we compare these two situations, with 36 F outdoor air and 1000 Btu/ft^2/day
of sun? Suppose each R1 sunspace glazing below were 2'x 2', and the R1 solar
closet glazing were 2'x 1', and there were perfect insulation to the north,
(or the south, down under) and at night...

 Warmstore with two layers of glazing    warmstore behind sunspace

             .........                          .........            
             .   .   .                          .   .   .            
          Tw .   .   . 36 F                   1'.   .   .  36 F          
             .   .   .                       Tw .   .   .            
             .   .Ts .      sun                 .   .   .       sun      
             .   .   .                          .   .   .            
             .   .   . 2'                       .....   .            
             .   .   .                          .       .            
             .   .   .                          .       .            
             .   .   .                          .  Ts   .            
             .   .   .                          .       .            
             .   .   .                          .       .            
             .........                          .........            

In the first case, 4K Btu = 6hr(Tw-36)4ft^2/R2, so Tw = 36 + 4K/12 = 369 F.
(Ignoring radiation loss.)

In the second, 4K = 6hr(Ts-36)4ft^2/R1, ie 4K =  24Ts - 24x36 and 
	       2K = 6hr(Tw-Ts)2ft^2/R1, ie 2K = -12Ts + 12 Tw,
                                        ie 4K = -24Ts + 24 Tw, so
                                           8K =         24 Tw - 24x36, so
                                           Tw = (8K+24x36)/24 = 369 F.

Looks the same, if neither is providing any useful heat to the house... 

But, suppose we remove 3500 Btu/day of heat for the house,
>from  the solar closet, in the first case, and
>from  the sunspace, in the second case. Then

In the first case, 4K Btu = 6hr(Tw-36)4ft^2/R2 + 3500,
so Tw = 36 + (4K-3500)/12 = 78 F.

In the second, 4K = 6hr(Ts-36)4ft^2/R1 + 3500,
           ie 500 = 6hr(Ts-36)4ft^2/R1, ie 500 =  24Ts - 24x36 and 
	       2K = 6hr(Tw-Ts)2ft^2/R1,  ie 2K = -12Ts + 12 Tw,
                                         ie 4K = -24Ts + 24 Tw, so
                                          4.5K =         24 Tw - 24x36, so
                                            Tw = (4.5K+24x36)/24 = 224 F.

The daytime "sunspace" temp would be 36 + 3500/6xR1/4ft^2 = 146 F in the
first case. The daytime sunspace temp would be 36 + 500/12 = 78 F in the
second case. The lower temperature behind the outer glazing means lower 
losses to the outdoors, and a more usable space for people and plants.
Radiation losses magnify this effect. One might use IR-transparent
polyethylene or Mylar film for the sunspace glazing in the second case,
but perhaps not in the first. 

If I'm doing this right, and we figure that the warmstore has to be at least
80 F to keep the house warm on a cloudy day, there is NO useful stored heat
in the first case, while the solar closet in the second case stores (224-80)
= 144 Btu/lb of water for cloudy weather in the second case, at a high enough
temperature to heat water for showers, as well (altho doing that, eg with a
fin-tube convective loop through a water heater upstairs, will lower the
closet temperature, requiring more closet glazing.)

Nick



From saturn@primenet.com Tue Sep  3 12:25:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1080 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!saturn
From: Elaine Gallegos <saturn@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: 28 Aug 1996 01:08:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <500up1$8sa@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net> <321B056A.7D3@ulst.ac.uk>
X-Posted-By: saturn@206.165.5.110 (saturn)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1080 alt.energy.renewable:17543 alt.architecture.alternative:7813 sci.engr.lighting:6025

Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk> wrote:
: Interesting thread.  Have you read the book by Brian Norton
: "Solar Thermal energy Technology" published by Springer-Verlag
: 1992.

  One of the tract houses around the block from me has an interesting
solar collector. The one story house has a squarish gable running the
length of the roof. It is lined with windows, facing south.
  Talking with the owner, she stated that these windows heat the house up
like a son-of-a-bitch.  the area is uninsulated.  I think that I would
cover the windows up in the summer.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elaine Gallegos
saturn@primenet.com                  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Sep  3 12:25:23 EDT 1996
Article: 1081 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Roof air collector idea
Date: 29 Aug 1996 02:31:46 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <503dgi$mrd@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <Dwt4r9.FwJ@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1081 alt.energy.renewable:17557

Catherine woodgold <woodgold@seismo.emr.ca> wrote:

>How would this be for a low-cost solar heat collector?
  
Hmmm.

>It's made of collapsible air ducts.  Round ducts of this type
>already exist.  They're just a loose spring, covered with plastic...

Interestink. This might be used to collect warm air under the peak of a roof,
if it had holes in it. Greenhouse poly ducts have to have pressure inside,
vs a vacuum, since they have no springs. D & L Grower Supplies of Leola PA
(800) 732-3509 sell 30" diameter poly duct with UV inhibitors in it, with
or without holes punched in it, for about 50 cents/linear foot.
 
>The central duct has a semi-circular cross-section, instead of round.
>It is made of dark-coloured plastic film. The radius of the semicircle
>is 14 inches, for just over 2 square feet of cross-sectional air flow.

So we could move about 1000 cfm through it with an air velocity of 500
linear feet per minute, which could transport about 1,000 Btu/hr per
degree F of temperature difference. If each linear foot (about 1 ft^2) of
tubing collected full sun at 300 Btu/hr, the temperature rise per linear
foot of this collector would be about 0.3 F, not counting the heat loss to
the outdoors from the 2 ft^2 of R1 tubing, if the temperature were less than
100 F or so. 70 F air might rise to 100 F after traveling through 100' of
this collector. 

>An outer duct of greenhouse-type transparent plastic film
>has a 16-inch radius, also semicircular.

Seems like this might work more cost-effectively without an outer duct...

>The collector would be sold in a kit containing two ducts
>(rather long), a lot of two-ended clips (spacers), a fan,
>a thermostat, and one-ended clips for weights.

Hmmm. 

>The user puts the dark duct inside the clear duct with the
>flat sides touching.  The user uses lots of little plastic
>2-inch-long spacers to attach the two ducts together.  These
>conveniently snap in place on the wire of the ducts and are
>shaped such that they're unlikely to tear the plastic film.
>The user also attaches one-ended clips to the edges of the
>outer duct.  These clips have little plastic bags attached
>to them.  The user finds some rocks and puts them in the
>bags for weights.

Perhaps the user has a very serious solar heating hobby :-)

>Then the user drapes the duct over the roof, winding it
>back and forth a couple of times...

Hmmm...

>Snow would tend to slide off.  The collector should go
>up-and-down the roof, not horizontally, to aid snow shedding.

Seems like it would have to have some horizontal parts...

>The wind is a big problem...

Yes, and snow... This might work better running horizontally along the south
wall of a house, protected from snow and summer sun by the eave of the roof.

One US patent describes a balloon used as a solar collector: it's tethered
to the ground, and a dark-colored liquid is pumped up from the ground through
tubing, then sprayed onto the inner surface of the balloon, and the warmed
liquid descends the inner concentric tube as the cooler liquid ascends
between the inner and outer tube (?) This might be improved by using 3 tethers
so the balloon could track the sun, and making the north half reflective on
both sides, to reduce heat loss from the north half and concentrate the sun
on a dark plastic film cylinder running from the north wall to the transparent
south wall. The lost heat from the cylindrical target might warm air to hold
up the balloon, if it were large (50'?)

Recall the giant inflatable Goodyear tires and Ronald McDonalds and Wendys? 
My neighbor sells pumpkins at Halloween, and he has a 5' inflatable lighted
pumpkin with a small blower... I wonder if we might make a vertical linear
version of that balloon collector, that looked like a bird from the top?
Could it be almost self-supporting, with some solar heat? A 0.004" x 16' wide
x 100' long roll of greenhouse poly film weighs 37 pounds and costs $82.

A +/- 45 deg fixed Winston concentrator?                 north
The south side would be transparent,                      ..
the north side would be reflective on both sides,   .   .    .   .
and the sides adjacent to the letters "dn"        .      .dn.       .
might be black poly film with a few pinholes.   .    up   ..   up     .
Cool air would blow up from the bottom and          .   .     .   .
up through the ducts marked "up", and be warmed          south
as it filters through the black plastic and moves
back down to the ground, to enter a building...

It might be 8' wide and 4' thick and 50' tall, using 1200 ft^2 of standard
greenhouse white and black and clear polyethylene film, heat-sealed at the
edges, costing 5 cents/ft^2, ie $60 for the whole thing, and it might collect
the heat equivalent of 4-6 gallons of oil per day. The base might have some
55 gallon drums full of water inside. It might last 5 years or more, if
deflated when the house were warm enough and at night and in windy times and
in summertime onto an 8' roller, or deflated into one place using internal
tethers. How would that work? It might say "Eat at Joe's," or some other
custom inspirational message. We could have neighborhood contests, to see
how tall we could make these things.

Nick



From noel@asis.com Tue Sep  3 12:25:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1082 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wco.com!news
From: "noel" <noel@asis.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: corrected repost-Solar metallurgy?
Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:03:25 GMT
Organization: West Coast Online's News Server - Not responsible for content
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <01bb93f2$9371d460$197063ce@humboldt.net.humboldt.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port11.asis.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

The links in my earlier posting didn't work for unknown
reasons so I am reposting this request now with (hopefully)
working one's. Sorry for cluttering up this group.

I have a six foot alluminum satelite dish which I am 
polishing to use as a solar concentrator. It can easily
incinerate a soda can and I believe that on a larger scale
commercial quantities of all metals could be melted this
way cheaply and pollution free almost anywhere (including
space). I am looking for information on this and starting a
rather humble web page on this at
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3307/solmet.html  or
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3307 (my index page,
a heavy loader with a 113 kb animated .gif) If
you know anything about this or have any brilliant ideas on
the subject please post them or email me at  noel@asis.com 

thank you

 Noel Adamson
 pob 1448
 Redway, CA
 USA



From p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk Tue Sep  3 12:25:25 EDT 1996
Article: 1083 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.iscm.ulst.ac.uk!news
From: Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:48:55 +0100
Organization: centre for Performance Research On the Built Environment, University of Ulster
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3226C717.2812@ulst.ac.uk>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net> <321B056A.7D3@ulst.ac.uk> <500up1$8sa@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: probe18.prbj.ulst.ac.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1083 alt.energy.renewable:17588 alt.architecture.alternative:7830 sci.engr.lighting:6043

Elaine Gallegos wrote:
> 
> 
>   One of the tract houses around the block from me has an interesting
> solar collector. The one story house has a squarish gable running the
> length of the roof. It is lined with windows, facing south.
>   Talking with the owner, she stated that these windows heat the house up
> like a son-of-a-bitch.  the area is uninsulated.  I think that I would
> cover the windows up in the summer.
> 
> 

One of the main problems which everyone seems to raise on this newsgroup
is the failure of solar energy ideas, designs, products etc in use,
especially overheating.

The installation of solar collectors on a house is not adhoc like the
purchase of television set.   It is obvious to me that a small degree of
thermal modelling would have highlighted the overheating problem BEFORE
installation.

regards



-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Dr Philip Griffiths,     PROBE, University of Ulster
TEL:+44 (0)1232 368238              Northern Ireland
FAX:+44 (0)1232 368239 E-MAIL p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk 
----------------------------------------------------


From john@nine7.demon.co.uk Tue Sep  3 12:25:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1084 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!gatech!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!nine7.demon.co.uk
From: john <john@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 96 01:41:26 GMT
Organization: an ascii newshead's glass screen
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <841455686snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net> <321B056A.7D3@ulst.ac.uk> <500up1$8sa@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <3226C717.2812@ulst.ac.uk>
Reply-To: john@nine7.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nine7.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: nine7.demon.co.uk
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1084 alt.energy.renewable:17641 alt.architecture.alternative:7848 sci.engr.lighting:6059

In article <3226C717.2812@ulst.ac.uk>
           p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk "Philip Griffiths" writes:

> Elaine Gallegos wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >   One of the tract houses around the block from me has an interesting
> > solar collector. The one story house has a squarish gable running the
> > length of the roof. It is lined with windows, facing south.
> >   Talking with the owner, she stated that these windows heat the house up
> > like a son-of-a-bitch.  the area is uninsulated.  I think that I would
> > cover the windows up in the summer.
> > 
> > 
> 
> One of the main problems which everyone seems to raise on this newsgroup
> is the failure of solar energy ideas, designs, products etc in use,
> especially overheating.
> 
> The installation of solar collectors on a house is not adhoc like the
> purchase of television set.   It is obvious to me that a small degree of
> thermal modelling would have highlighted the overheating problem BEFORE
> installation.
> 
> regards
> 
> 
> 
Is there a simple way or formulae for estimateing amount of storage of hot & 
cool?
On the old duttch wind mills there was adjustabl slats to be alterd for 
diferent wind, why isnt there somthing like it today for shade & sun alteration
as we've got the z80 micro computer all these years? 
-- 

Yours sincerely....John G.*?*?*?*?*? Us Neuron's don't KNOW that much, period.
*What is existance without socialising?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?
(Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech' power.)c?
(Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving
so as apathy doesn't drown lurkers)c?


From r.bahm@ieee.org Tue Sep  3 12:25:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1085 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Raymond Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.lighting
Subject: Re: A translucent solar window collector?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:50:20 -0600
Organization: Raymond J. Bahm and Associates
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <322A597C.2960@ieee.org>
References: <4v23t8$mn9@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3215ba2d.57793078@news.nr.infi.net> <321B056A.7D3@ulst.ac.uk> <500up1$8sa@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
Reply-To: r.bahm@ieee.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmg29.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I)
To: Elaine Gallegos <saturn@primenet.com>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1085 alt.energy.renewable:17646 alt.architecture.alternative:7855 sci.engr.lighting:6065

Elaine Gallegos wrote:
> 
> Philip Griffiths <p.griffiths@ulst.ac.uk> wrote:
> : Interesting thread.  Have you read the book by Brian Norton
> : "Solar Thermal energy Technology" published by Springer-Verlag
> : 1992.
> 
>   One of the tract houses around the block from me has an interesting
> solar collector. The one story house has a squarish gable running the
> length of the roof. It is lined with windows, facing south.
>   Talking with the owner, she stated that these windows heat the house up
> like a son-of-a-bitch.  the area is uninsulated.  I think that I would
> cover the windows up in the summer.
> 
What you are describing sounds like what we term "clerestory" window.
South-facing windows on a solar home usually have an overhang that
blocks the summer sun's rays.  Since the sun is lower in the sky in
the winter, they are not blocked in the wintertime.  This is standard
passive solar design technology.
-- 
Ray Bahm  --  r.bahm@ieee.org


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Sep  3 12:25:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1086 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A cure for a damp basement?
Date: 31 Aug 1996 11:05:12 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <509kb8$nt5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Keywords: cheap heat pump
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:26673 alt.energy.renewable:17648 alt.architecture.alternative:7857 alt.solar.thermal:1086

Bill Shurcliff wrote (in December, 1980, in "Solar Flashes," the newsletter
of Colorado's Alternative and Solar Energy Associations)...

It seems to me a crying shame not to make use of the thermal capacity of a
concrete basement. The house proper weighs, say 15 tons, and the concrete
basement (concrete floor, concrete walls) weighs about 60 tons. Tremendous!

[60x2000x0.16 = 19K Btu/F, like 40 55 gallon drums full of water?...]

One idea is to heat all this up to about 100 F; thus it stores much heat, and
this heat can be used at night, or next cloudy day, to warm the rooms. An idea
that appeals to me is to use a low-cost, informal, air-type solar collector
to heat the basement to 60 of 70 F, then use a COP-3 GE 10,000 Btu/hr air
conditioner (new type costing about $500 or $600) to transfer heat from the
basement air to the room air; the rooms are kept warm, and the basement air
gets colder and colder--until the next sunny day, when solar energy heats the
basement up again to about 70 F. The air conditioner is mounted in the floor
between the central hall and the basement below; it steadily "tries to cool"
the basement, while using the main story (central hall) as a heat sink.

Note that the basement, being no hotter than about 70 F, does not lose much
heat to the outdoors (the basement is insulated on the exterior, of course.)
Also note that, inasmuch as the solar air-type collector is called upon to
deliver air that is only at about 70 or 80 F, the collector can be merely
single-glazed and of very flimsy, cheap type--say a long plastic contraption
draped along the entire south wall of the house, below window level; ie a
"drape" 4 ft. high and 36 ft. long, say, with a small blower and flexible
duct, circulating basement air into the collector and back into the basement.

Note also that the basement, being usually at about 60 or 70 F, is eminently
habitable (for workroom, playroom, bedroom, or whatever.) Note, finally, that
the air conditioner can be relocated and reassigned in summer to act as a
normal cooler, to keep all of the rooms cool. (I assume that the house is
superinsulated, so that even a modest amount of cooling will suffice to keep
the entire house cool.)

...

My house has a dirt basement floor, with stone walls, with insulation outside
of the stone, and it's often quite damp. I've been thinking of adding a vapor
barrier, but Norman Saunders says the main mechanism for upward heatflow in
the ground is evaporation of water, with condensation above... This seems
like a nice inexpensive high-performance heat pump, using equipment that many
people already own, with a good 55 F heat source even in the dead of winter. 

Nick



From helfrich@universal.dca.net Tue Sep  3 12:25:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1087 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.sgi.com!esiee.fr!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.dca.net!universal!helfrich
From: helfrich@universal.dca.net (Brian Helfrich and Lynn Wigglesworth)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A cure for a damp basement?
Followup-To: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Date: 1 Sep 1996 20:51:29 GMT
Organization: DCANet http://www.dca.net
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <50ct0h$qss@news.dca.net>
References: <509kb8$nt5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: universal.dca.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:26753 alt.energy.renewable:17667 alt.architecture.alternative:7872 alt.solar.thermal:1087

Nick Pine (nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu) wrote:

[snip]
> ...

> My house has a dirt basement floor, with stone walls, with insulation outside
> of the stone, and it's often quite damp. I've been thinking of adding a vapor
> barrier, but Norman Saunders says the main mechanism for upward heatflow in
> the ground is evaporation of water, with condensation above... This seems
> like a nice inexpensive high-performance heat pump, using equipment that many
> people already own, with a good 55 F heat source even in the dead of winter. 

> Nick

The house we are buying has the same kind of basement. In addition, it 
has a pipe with spring water flowing (we think it was the original house 
water--before the well was added). The water is always cold (even in mid 
summer) and I've been trying to think of some way to use the cold water 
before sending it on it's way out of the basement. I don't know if it's 
drinkable, but I thought of somehow cooling a box (a beer cooler? storage 
for extra veggies or eggs?) with it, then directing it out of the 
basement. It's a shame to waste such nice coldness. Any ideas?

regards,

Lynn


From MaxEper@cris.com Tue Sep  3 12:25:32 EDT 1996
Article: 1088 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!MaxEper
From: MaxEper@cris.com (Steve S)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: A little help with thermo....
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 23:22:27 -0600
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <MaxEper-0209962322270001@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc047033.concentric.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:54125 alt.solar.thermal:1088

After 20 years my thermo is a little rusty. I'm trying to relearn it from
my college textbook (Thermodynamics, JP Holman, 1974) to understand this
solar/steam stuff a little better. Can someone tell me if I understand the
following stuff correctly?

1. Internal energy, u. - basically a measure of the thermal energy - the
energy stored in the random kinetic motion of the molecules.

2. enthalpy, h. -  the internal energy plus the work available because the
gas is compressed.
To determine the work available between two states, compare the
enthalpies. (I'm thinking in terms of moving a piston here.)

If I'm wrong, correct me in public so no one follows me down a dark road.

Please e-mail me if you'd be willing to answer an occasional question. I
won't ask till I've thought.

Thanks in advance,

Steve S


From cage@critech.com Tue Sep  3 12:25:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1089 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news
From: All locked up and nowhere to go <cage@critech.com>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A little help with thermo....
Date: 3 Sep 1996 15:41:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Entropy
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <50hjk3$cj8@condor.ic.net>
References: <MaxEper-0209962322270001@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cripc18.critech.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 16bit)
To: MaxEper@cris.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:54133 alt.solar.thermal:1089

MaxEper@cris.com (Steve S) wrote:
>1. Internal energy, u. - basically a measure of the thermal energy - the
>energy stored in the random kinetic motion of the molecules.

Close enough for government work.

>2. enthalpy, h. -  the internal energy plus the work available because the
>gas is compressed.

Enthalpy = internal energy plus the product of pressure and specific volume.
(Multiply pressure in N/m^2 by volume in m^3/kg, you get N-m/kg, or specific
energy.)

>To determine the work available between two states, compare the
>enthalpies. (I'm thinking in terms of moving a piston here.)

Not quite.  Enthalpy is used when the fluid crosses a boundary, e.g. steam
flowing out of a boiler.  The pressure-volume product is a transfer of
energy which has to be accounted for.  In hydraulic systems, nearly all of
the energy transfer is from the pressure-volume product, a negligible amount
is from internal energy changes.

If you are heating, expanding, cooling, and compressing a fluid inside a
closed cylinder, you have nothing crossing any boundaries such as nozzle
apertures and you'd use the internal energy throughout.
 
>If I'm wrong, correct me in public so no one follows me down a dark road.

I'm always happy to help put the public discussions on a firmer foundation.
I post publicly when I have the ability and time.



From kingrey@cco.net Fri Sep 13 23:13:19 EDT 1996
Article: 1090 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.cco.net!usenet
From: "William Kingrey" <kingrey@cco.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Passive Solar Design Spreadsheet
Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:16:36 GMT
Organization: W.M.Kingrey & Associates
Lines: 2514
Message-ID: <01bb9968$9d2c5f40$24d141ce@kingrey.cco.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip36.cco.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

The attached Spreadsheet was written for QuattroPro for windows - version
5.0 or later.  It is compressed using pkzip2.04.

The spreadsheet implements the design methods outlined in the Passive Solar
Design Handbook - Volume 2.  It will provide good performance predictions
for up to five different passive solar systems (trombe walls, water walls
and direct gain) in a single building with varying glazing orientations,
reflectors, night insulation and overhangs.

The unregistered version includes weather data for ten sites in the US.  A
registered version, available for $20 includes data for over 200 sites in
the US and Canada. 


begin 600 Psdhv2r.zip
M4$L#!!0``@`(`,N[-1U,KW0LV04``/L+```*````4D5!1$U%+E185'5676_;
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MS^@F)("<K;H2GT2(-;RQGBZT``9YMBX5BE.U*NF-V%@G$*3GA0^+"KI]2QN\
MI*VS7<NE^[3+!T3825%QVIY>S^C*=EN-E"^%!KJ;`8>QZ;UT\@@/'M?6B7:G
M2J&)48[MR"]=A,*3[S .!A7?:,??L+!DI*P#A [ (9JH,'P9T.^=Q"K,IO,#
MV@^A:F<;^A1903<WF%*>5?)>:MO&A4-1=!0OUJ[\\2L.'/F39P^1N:PFLA@E
M=4$K$UN+82,!GHQYES'MV(*,*U"N$ULFI D[W8.3)CBUZ>+ 8]$GA$-B(]VV
M)Z >,&3RO0\2/&A0'C\GCM4`VH"^(SW+G7"B#-)A9*KT:2S^QY7TW4+T4>JN
MDBPK29CLMYC#">,;A;)8#\ZVT@4E$Q)G?Y_1O="=++@4Z$93@P8*2 0P,G?B
M(XF-MZX52%V0#&6<G0_.FBU <!+D::3A(8**PO362!X8U\@5G(KPP'BRFP")
M`\26ZT$RH35%1\BST1*XR@TG`*U$H[1"A+T*.ZY7N3@`,,'39#&=`:AC5TI4
MH,0%+/2L`$ZSF--9BS'Z,YZ\H/<@!YJA%?Z=S^;,WSR[4Z:R>P3^^'9*Q@;)
M3C8HI%8.DN80I))#^:YI!*2XM^YSXF.>L:#KSI0#\=+":!.H&&L/$JJ4;[7H
M!ZZ.C.-QC5)D@HI-Q_#QAE,9#D49.%2>U0QT;(XP0MKO6,2QP@A^#2)V>$-'
M67P4K!3E#N#D&3PC6(IQ*E5'QH5A]TA?C@P:<7)9(?TUEI416U!/Z0#"?(-'
MAEU!%HJ!%VQ!(M_*,K8`'FNLARL4T:38SX=W3+'4XL_8RWD/@JSBNF0>/PAU
MJ%?<<XR:11(5.O:9&DG P99@+=#S8:"\#"E+J;4PTG;^%*TGD-^6CRT<'5!*
M2L6U'(;O!R6XP=PX(!NL,J/HY1%BG-YAEB<8'PWU4-=%VT)EZBM=Q'2#VF'J
M>TP5@T[DXF3(`PP43AZ:)(_9@OR2#QSD8BPQHO$0!&FPY=$"U)\7= C[$(UG
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M3W9Q,X")<N(O/?O3UG(`_ ]O'SH:/!AR&'5X."D2ER,+TE"'X1<XR>\3X6(-
M8(W5.L\FP]U+6UR"2,N:#Q"'LWPZ)L-I-'P0)MU>UL,1T$9!P*Y31P*R$.XP
M$)Q3PP7#TZ)8%H^?/0@QW2!N/]ZL"SI?/C^GE76!/M@>YO"A@M6L6P<#J974
M`.G3!2V7B]\7')7BCW45JOV5KMY=/[U</YDOEG\\710GCTMZ?/+\C)V7C9FO
MT;J/9?[R'U!+`P04``(`" "Z64H=D-XD,](```#^`@``"@```%!31$A6,BY)
M0T_%CC$.PC ,1=T*"89*H0MSQ<0QN%4RIA-<@;.D4C,R]"",N8'Y3D2;5$+ 
MQ'=<Y]D_:8@J1-?M2?2HB0ZH)V2'/",KVL29K>F-QKAH'%.1P,9[3]9:=#@N
M8DY%0EKX!*0*Q"HP`ELT0V"5F#ECI5C!PD'V. T62RR81[LJ&%7\%.^7N?RR
MU'&E:=;]*LI8W[3.F+9@L[!?\:YD'\\OW)3L<;_.N)FF"[B?Q_(`;5KG7F,Q
M]& WI#$,IA5&HTFG\'YAYY=7N60HV7WBX4=V7S/]64]02P,$% `"``@`=W93
M'=!2NLK)K@$`*)D+``H```!04T1(5C(N5T(Q[%T+6%-7MMXG)T\($!YJ59!C
MAH+T*AX>*LYE-"%0T0*&5\%^(J*D2 M&>5292@U4*=;ZX=AJU=I^T::.G:LC
M_<9.O=.'\=%;7ZUA`D-;WU9;V]OV8AWKHVKN/@>2L] $" 4%>P@)?]999^VU
M]UY[[;4?9X.0`!&*9/R)4 K[>8BA",1(BIB?H.L:8@,B$$-$!,F@L0R*(O!'
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M*FP&_D$6Y,EX`92J+RW!6EA8BQ,@C;ZD)!]_\\+Y()&FHK14-W]N)2;(<84+
MD597.E<WOYQE%^'7HT6+=07XFPQ7H!@EY)?K\!=O),&O)%T^8VQ4)$N1XI>=
M$L7>+L.O3'TYF[8G_N[1EC;-LGOBESUQ&GV&;Q8@DB;0;1:GLUC XBB XP'V
M`W@QP(P<`78[=DP"3$@I%FL!/]WQWECL+XGNXB@2C12YP<_JD$5UGQ_+%R,#
MBWW;]"2 _MW0S4#T)%^LGFE43^_M%<SFT5=Y7W7H#O;K1EVPY2GOT_*DB)[7
M=<\QR>1=V._KZ-?@`+;-WFV'_B[H`PC31##5__4DW+8QFC!3#[1-\IC'/+Y/
M/M.?ZATYV12'6WHH4] =WXAHONYXS&,>]P&V.,8=!(.7];[\(".'?8T/7!GZ
ML658TY=IJ61H]3W)BW_WQL(##PL8.S3=;QUH.0JXBZY\D,J<*6=?DWO\D5WR
MTUY(P?MJ'O-XH/J$02:^''C<M9TTFC@\SC3PYA:L_+SE`,(QQ&2^OGC,8Q[S
MF,?W*6:HH!Z<O#13SNE7^'Z6QSS^+6!V#KE"R9<)CWE\9[NXPK<+'O/X-S[/
M21.70_ARX#&/^QZK>F=?/7(\]^'K8M^X%M!]F3:>%7KW7A$!<DIW%RM=[UVG
M"17%S6]'`VSKA3$XR<@,X;#=CY'(U3[&&+#?,L;Y^@B^EZ1ZQZ^FA7 XRXZQ
M_.80[EF HTJNK+1@#^=D@*,!ODPY?Z9 KN1P^_X-%IL=]!@7^SIH(A?(GPGL
M2JOD<"; 37?7-4O/`SS9`+<HNWXF(A?HWVS'B':I<Q[0,Q>DU:SDGF'Q,7)X
MOQT+*")M&X>SMG5=CPM!/5: >KP2PLF?#-*Z;.3TSP+ZR %/DY'+[TV0]RJ 
M*P!V$JNS]#C 0P/<"NJ=!N5)`WWB@#Y7@#X+@4U64<['#E5]-W;P=^&O>H";
M@ TT$62?[O=K(H[US_V$6M=S($U$+B@?.<!5]STO3<2G1ON>QB;BYA8'77ZL
M@:.?X.CV=L?BR0!'&_GQ/M.FM,YB@)ZWM0`W[U6XR<_JG!;:-4]%J'-ZMIMI
M(3$?H_[V<!-QU&COWYOD-W=Q='_@0TZ[X4.89PQ]'3%#$W'2Y#R&B:0XGELF
MSE='*GNZ]YMY-D?D5)^T[H_Q_1G^@%"16V48S/O8?N/GFT/O75I70CG<$MJU
MG2PR]DZZ&:$]OS?/13^8&^I>WY<;RML>CWG</^:Q<<QOXO!E$]?>HX&/NMR-
M>'(AX+_$M_$'PC9:3 ,O+LW@8RH>#RRLZ.NXB)%O!?.QC0!?`O@*P$,`'@3P
M.("K`%8#+ *X&>!$@#_FUT_[S=BGL0O;$R#WG@F]\WRJ[)#[TW_YFP;V'H,R
MT%X6`7PUQ+T^T0;F9$X"? M@;HVUR;[&$<#2:SA,;^'*]K3)7K]-1#3 ETV<
M'*N1H_N#.-,&>)8"':[R?3>/><SC`;XWK*7-/VOOX;PBCW_#]O9)G\97%K!.
M80'K.Q9'_][GY_.@@7*^BH7(`^63#7"+D5NKRE7>GW@X^P$YPX'LDW.NNL;B
M;ISUAWD"4("T-]/UY?N1_C4O&@W&,GFF^^/SH\%:^013S\?^EQUKUC'V?9+^
M_#I=_YJ?J7):%]C/=/],K0Q0IQEN[BG*Z.A_FKA]H??XK(]@L \Y".P#23,Y
M;Z<+V^CI+O8[_5H_X!.TRXYCB*,ASN=>),:^] .60>B5WBG;`U3/UUP^,3K;
M&X!EAMIC'HR5'/ZW\L'O(_Y@ZE]Q*3G@YM9H8@CE/ 9+=FN\0RN<^4F"U! ^
MCCJ*=CR_(":MA,31OUL)TF2G1Q/R$(Z?TT<C$^[B^.UQ*<,O#.%P3 C'0W,R
M93$Q''T02-?7P6-UR&?257%ZRF(`/8[B\ *0EPD@C]PS$1I"X[ '*[ -JV-\
MQ^A@!7K*8QSY[:!G(Z<G."/.ZC@G%O/X^.[B> AP;S.X5P'2BHOIJ<U$$SZ@
M'&B*TX$&==3JM&U:P7@-VIN&D(,RE(.RU0#]50!K`?9RS(U;B4" %0!G`]P"
M[IT.RK/9R-%G`IX44)ZY`,\$N K@R0!?!ABFFPRP'.! @./ O5=,G%UQ>\@U
M8 ]Y-'@VQ^K8SR8&;9!I(R1H+SXA7%HD2#<;\-O'8N(.[<Y*) ">0" G$]"]
M`#T+U&\@L!\OBN./`_PTT*<<W&O_GQ=,/5I,7![W`TP"?@V0;P;R$X&>K:!,
M:(#W`RP)L?LT*R$R<9@`:1% -RV@[P?Y;>7:B\-N!1WD6 FUL:N^S^ITGD'0
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MUY>5EIE7/[K5OK[01-S<VM/]`W!.XU>5CV/^BNEW]IMZNT^W$C$F>WXM!+F5
MPZC6/3F?F+KF.6#B;-O)\Y[^S'A$L=5Y?T<..!]E!>><N+\FFQG*Q5W.]K<S
MMK&$'[MU.BY(H-PI\VC[FC6+$T+[UK>WKY6SF%LKCR82*2Y.L,<2C TD`'M(
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MYW6*FU<\"<ZK=&#4D?XZP#\`'HAO`9X=2DZW+X&>7P#\;9?YC9:*:,?<H%0=
MP]&%-(=5@$<5PV$AP $`:V.XYV=1HMV>:8=O(8$_B0<V"75CZ'DZ#K?;?-OS
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M`@_ !9Y.MU>+D*T6'S0("]9,S9R!^62X2IC"&(P+(SM1G9F4R,J4BM!PJ1>;
MW!!$>*4F9N:IM;C&L](3\4UB23@ZQ]3X5[@0!>*,RK)R74D9*A (T<GK!0$S
M!#XH3CVWO.@9'36E-'_!O$EH)(E0'IF+5J X`ZZ8]A^+Q"+!ILE\?QD9$++9
M;/9+A)#],UF[F_FSC[C11D7"E)V/H#M^S&F8CO,10BJ8?!@8@03[$E!J\H)P
M*QIA$#")4(Y$*9+!+S#?0:)H\D9\D]ELQI_X1R2AY)0G):5DE <EI$24F/H`
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M`?V#C%5=F!UW8"39D+-]TXMARCS#RE4KR%)T`K>4JCV!^O,'<Y#G2+(."=3:
MCX1UZ'\I'^F.QM7^Z\XVY(M?>-ZB6O5RM2 GNEII_/TOQ/2#A&+/.X]$7*Y#
M">*#@8:W9P6L4"<H1ZC,4S-#)RUO\/)66+1^Z\B:I[_U3UJQ)KX@MBB:?O)1
M]3L[@H?N]1A?*CNV>6^PQ[YG+V83LKG48F'4Z ,K3<H#60\_3->5^T21BI=.
M>K^\>+$RQ3#5:Z*__YJ<PND9@3?/F%[6_$0%JIJ4PP2C/M^1L')SZZ0;`O,)
M95Q:W9NK]>E_NQ53DW3F%7&H(+)2Z!T_DIH:V%3]S@G9[PK>3:6&>8O&O_62
M`3&M4I'S\_1O9=1P5=F-.5?_RZB25U2K]SZK\R:_%,X+WN:[?M;R%V9D/K<\
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MCUJ'1Q6\JO]6:_OO[Y?H`VM*-DT;>W#KS"TS_KZP;NOG>9=^G"!8IUNB( Z5
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M!MS0"8&<]1NB-N^!KXX`5X\K%7?Z+<SA#;Y]@24>QN\/\7N/0(R0W):=?]S,
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MU,TO<"%4A$54"3_%4?\3U7)6X$4R`#%O3J G%(B-N:.2]LINDS<4-QDT@U*7
M%N47([]'\F2JH*6R$8F%<0?#WAM/X[]_I.IS-U$=&VQ;P\9";*.)NUHS>@BI
MI&WRELK.#]H9/FW4>^/CL.2_)$]0_5U<**O%*4!^`:4DF2:<*VC3\ G\98; 
M`Z7EI>CGE\\KKNQYV.0Y91<VA:-$%A,%X=_:9&=A$T()Y$7RSK!)P(9-+XGZ
M+&P:+L1*H\4!@[TD-2ND;-BTE V;Z,'A_D&[E_UEX;1]3-@DD\SN&#9]?&PV
M4@G?(#35KYWY^MQ:NK9PYPCCU^DK0NI3EK_URN[=Z4.2MV7.:1Y6L*PA8<VA
M"^.FG4$UI3'KGUZP=W^.N7#8)D7"PIQ)HS;2$4_\],VSM\;/GCGS](_7EC_C
M%;G^\,J8:V^:ESZW-?.2KRI@\-]&?7S^J=&M*$G^`OF:X=C3JSY==CUUS[1M
M6?%GMYWYJ$EKB!,&XK IH;5T^_C'BM''F07TZ*IZ_7-F0^@W%N\]8W;4;L@X
M_[1%;5OPP<FQ'^"HO%R\H/JPN;(NWC.OX?-K=(1T%/%U%/+4/B??\\5CPPV$
MP:?^:.WTT-4K0LZ%*U3A*Y7KMRE7;$9&Y8OQ]!OALBW232/K=MS8(D<H*?#4
M6^H-H\?^/W-/`AU5D>U]O6;I)$TDR"HO8>D`V2,0PY:E$XAD@70"A(3 (WF$
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ML//<S)O7OCTT_=BR-]Y_\OBUGP[-LA;!7UY:`J[7UEWZ]_T!^2<?B9IQ<<OK
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MYH3!Z$+X>'U+ZIK0O7_][I43&O&/<D)_`0?N"-QKH>M C!Y$MB==3'2)Q,8)
M:E$XB7^'5(=4<=1XD:5^A*NBRR7@,W59N5^ATUGX*YVKLK^?Z/HS7:XBI!S^
MQN#7J.$78!ZO*MUXG96P$'J#1K^).70`CL4EW' ]?^+B*#\$Q%D7)XW;UR25
M03#0`3*EEI"&]5_Q7P"7BL8;'A+L2Z(458JJM1)]K_:2".XA44\3`)>(8D6+
M)7+_TA!.$EU ^QPFVZK<:R6H<.F"A'^Q9,W6ZEZ2$1*7C/2/)!-:ME;9S=;J
M`@1!OEQA=;H<$EF)1\)V0J!@_G^1D(3@$KZZ)S_E7R"A'UBJITW#0/P;,#6O
MY</&5IA:<^$Z$Z:A:9LJ>M5\EM#WBC0%`3K("3"P4CNTV =9"=.1``V.'B1X
MCZH62GV.Y<,GHL3E\-R%K?77]FT:?'].#O9;M9)^Z]"_OXNKX)M;_KNY[LIG
M.1-3AFBA$[E=H\9/`R%^&L9#%V8(U+('3 D`W0C=:X17[JC7WU%??4==I/\'
MG@]>)MVCO8+F$[3&`.1E_L"FQU\J4!N'L#8`*P;FO[,N/DJWV".RV^RQ'-<N
M-40+] `H!D,CS7ZL4/$/K\P_^8L3RCT$?L;2FW 4>@L76=L<G!IJ<TW(2^+D
MO4X0[O<38(]TJ;_?\FO]DT<V]J>SDJ!/B/D#7B;;G88[#!$@J&D"FGXO5\.S
M`T_W?TJCUG);A)/,V+YBIEDD'&'WW\VENP"SV5T%D]A=#;O870,N=M="QSJZ
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MH?\>(TJW(,"4[JJ-LKBBQE913TI>`XB'M&JKK=QJKQ"'R9)+S*YT.D6SY)+ 
M&@*TDPTD3+/LM%;8Q0)Y6I6,<;;:(3M!)RA<&8A>EMUI+9>!4PNBEKQJ%VN"
MWEHC6%C">6MX]_S8H0+\,HO2XD00M(7P@*!-@- P7<%DV3&MTNE"'IRRRT4,
M69UB9;5+K)PD.B1[A8R"#5"3R+<:^358*+YKV*$P`/7(:^!.FG]DZ$Y:5#]=
M\^$3V3X\&*X/-\'?'R$$31QP_FE5):>3GC#SI\_B",F!2^:2'4Y0YJ<-?)#L
M[D7:P]<M%#Y.-BDXH,SM`W XV5106R6C2PIA&MD6SA6;S$.!U\*@H=@T>K12
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M3!:YBG+O)6DA+*+T@:4#3'EEC$^J1U$]M[+&78^FNEDN`P.OQU#]4<D.,;P>
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MRJ-[*H_NJ3RZI_+HGLJC>RJN>V:S$UR<`Z9[9K/"#],\5#N:515J79>\IKV.
M>U;]]2>&<#AIW>\O#2XXE%"5X@M.6K?7\>(K&R+G^823UK4[,VYKP=\6^X23
MUB7)MIU5^J4^X:1U70.'?U1W;J%/.&G=HC/'?]WTZWR?<-*Z0>?L[W]GJ_$)
M)ZT[9RO<VOZ)/)]PTCK?\\-GO2^DL(BL]NB?6O'"'=D+I;@S\=H/6'@V#QRJ
M[&0PZ-@I"9,POF#:)#,_J^:[&G=T<57$L"2,K:&:^T>1KZ^:::E)Y)Y&C;J)
MZUN0E5W =%'-?.)8I4P^<2QP+MLI7E#M\8=JCS]4,YWDHS^$?.#H`F]W:ZC:
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MPMZ$Z5ZQ4:4/PKF.9Q^?1!<V+/C]D06W_I@"[%,4+6X0`@4A0&-@1UM![-":
MOZP2!!SI(1A4>'STJ$LOZ!,5)$$+$-Q561Z<VT;^&)F7@X5'[D+J@1)WXFB=
M-%V]%N=.9"-Z1/K@9E!A[8_GC@6;1J30X92.'E 9Z.F-`#\VTO6"IW]G]KG,
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M`FI6(J?9A=HP+>6)*O5ZR-UBR2R#1MZK*[5Y-I(!V"+"E2(3PR%X.*NYX6VQ
M)0(.%YERK#8;'5\I:2^U=_/13N-UAX8BMX/6>FQ%J]A**)9,L!1#@/ML$A3*
MD?!T4"D_IU0H](*BDN84C# `Z(6\0J]M#L4_,N4`#7IS+VOVQ+];[$H1@*/W
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M[U$OJ01(WG^HQH1__6D+G7$9$X%'+DZ:'Y4\J\-.FMUJ^(;F-?D_F4-4`HS-
M&SBU4GSR&*=6Z=1JG5HC'J"%6J7+96B!.5_#=K[F+*@7G._@5+E.+14/',)>
MS.=^86>C6<%OJ%^'K=1P=D3PURM$[0V<6BF^?(Q3JW1JM4ZM$2'YW;62U\R'
M6:Y2M3I5IU.;96J![OD"W7/<C?\@\<0%DB>F91\72-A1ITOXVQ5B^PV<6BEZ
M3W-JE4ZMUJDUXJ1,;16/&FJ3!+>X4"_+%T+;]QZ2JXI2?K,,M22,?A?JS7)\
M$QYR,FEV+"V$7OS^,8-DQT+HQ_N/$<W%G]W-N:O$?SO&FN="-/ ?X]0:<0]A
M<R%0GI(9.(,6@L)"S[?S4Y"?2OEIJ_R6GT*^IT;]5$7!0?34KB01!@KQR*N 
MC-?LY-12_6Z93BW7J17BY ).K107YB\F^&R0K=RU]^_1N8@A9L97540OQI>)
M2XDO^SH9(NKI[UWR[\/R[W/PE^///O0['#]V\C89'_886:U+\<]=_.=A_O.<
M*/7'CCTB&WA$-O"(;. 1V8","7N<*WR<*WR<*WR<*\1XL0NP/L5X,0[I.DHC
M6648XJ3H,$H@M0Z62J7P6T9I6%\8>XQR2L^CWPKZK:3?^?2[@'Z!2HQ5!KGY
M$8*[:PYT'>[==^RPV7V4HO$'NGN.BN7D)(=V(J=K]H;[NSOZ`:<WTFY&P,D)
MRXPX3F[4(A$`C#"#WN1X9)2T?G,LD1TQAR).(@KB(6-%8J8S8EE9TZ8@*HPB
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M#&Q(`=I,;LX['-"&)&Y0JM1T<U?'(E >/AZ-G+54X7HJ*EO"E6,TDH).F=E<
M!N,B['C<;#!ORCE9+N7DH%]8UTCD') LAAWL@U90`M0,1:)G<VD8;WH<:0=*
M`P7"N"-F+!&GF(RLF<*PA02VXE#X`C0\E+1&G:!P&#*+L":.CT(09$<R%G;/
M:HA9<8K4(&I2L7,.= YY5[WIC=PG0I.1G0A46Q:R4]BF&.<Y427G!'0$XU$<
M@(AMP\.^[L-=3+_Y!$;$-6JE<M2 _!RC(6+*^P>$+!CNB['V#OZ$VZ7JU'A\
M8\#:TA1ST7,(0TJL\UEO9[;V]G4?'> VDPG0$D'+W[I8W 2M+%'SFFI$IA&U
M4U %$5(\D0&TX<Q6K7LHI-ZLEA"JAFD/O ;SQQCN,%V8D!VF?V$M%K"P,/ `
MI!KL!O0UE\PRD<823CH9&;=B.(>S6":6X'@>0/-()!EGYN7.)CW]LG::/_!6
MR7E"SI-EV&+2'H.1X9=R+D<]T5,\4:P,HA#IE:OFH3LX8YBU*0B,V9FS&,L#
M-?5;Q&RAI4%H:3F&@DP:_@.DQO$_9G=WM5G;V]]YX'A3';R5/,G<1]$^HS:&
M]KDA3D$,?UT!+:P4[[ZAIC,\$ :QT'MLH%](OK8:Q]CI,AL?!&&VQI&)#"7M
MZ%EG)\X7"O/U-%!OCLDEH).5+X94]!QR`80C!O?48.R4F<2H7"(X%5?%D51I
M'4,(H.GT8M\<`@8WGE;A59$T] '(#=:1'*[H4#=%A%NZ0E$DLC'%F3)HVD,4
M) ##6=S2%C3[1R(X1#]#9HHD++&,&K&3,1G5Q?0!E0#<-D-+5Y(\\)("1E-%
M@)W (.VS#;DT<)43#]Y.`6W&6H^>AG+Z*I3#Q8*F824$VJ*Q3O(A24H2$HB%
M>M7;7!KHSDQ:<9BM-G#+3#W);.C%L 5/P*"+8(N9O*/8O(EAU4A_M"I(I*+)
M7,Q2+)G*IBC:RE8A74,RI(M?,SN)R(@M#&5CY!*BV!M5@P%O(W24`K60R"8B
M24=W`Z=/$O>!`OA0'F'IF$WKZP@P[2BJ"2IJ30IO[CGTQ0?\!A(+4HYN8-RD
MD'"P)^/9$8IT)L"-!HD]H?\,H&L!@D%@.\6Y[9ZC/2>0=\"7N10+**"U8<5E
M,3"M9BR3R#+,HKD,21DJH,0P8XTU#"T%'7M4#8<^Q@SLKWW.RKCU">:RU]!H
MD)X;B((1.%HVNQ5C3"Y49Z%\]LA;1$4N:R/ZHW(H%@6^U_-'H!68*<N*(65N
MA]8VT@RR@>(3*9C1D!MAF:J0`+,I@5$E7GE/@27"N!:INHA%"'%2JR@ZCUTH
MHB4`HG$E)4,+LT6^C0+_L)RLFMB22)F:)">M(VCIBD91=QB29@V<\#;@*)H%
M4B.Y@-3EI"-18B-$_3'D7X!#VV)((VRPO2$+Y1".9#-35SH!T$G<C"B0&.!9
M&N&&L2P07!AF:2J6.&^&/? >)O47_DO9XTB8R406F!+(=L<!:2'2C/<M/&,`
M$] !:90AE<]V[3)!<Y^-*DX2M \$6N1<))$D)@0@2*!^I60V`<SM#0MFX%>*
MRNJ5='6B&1M%,,QY*J.JY@H!UJ<DL<*\E]HV=$'.3?I&H8=*`OLF_8UYN)#<
M@-:IB6SA+ FGJ";0]$%'1ZTU,DY\C2@2=2PK8Q9;22!(%;6H3LFV:!6,,\ML
M"H54%QM /'O@$?=!47ZC*$)Q7-4!> .U.<Q..V!P]JB2IK3&SJ-:1RFU`# H
M6@N:^PC,HIMMTJ)]G<:1@.J:(=QX]J@0GQ3G>#RT<M>(KD/UG;&1P-90,;=Y
M&!M;]<R2&DG655 W-E.F%<%UFUM6?A*4<JJ)UHN%&VN4AM2B9K62^;#P<04]
MC@GEE8Q#0X+5`B)_&TJ$]!;20!#:@'(F"910-T!+K=A2&*.=:84HYPJ2!HL[
M7*> '+''7'+"-1)KO=[6S+2-ZJ_>]@(C.0#UX^:J&MH&P9JD8AR285#M<9N7
M15'@"=B)/-4R*$),!=O5*B)OC+C<`)R-@S;IL*9FL9"3TY.#S.7"-ZXB^K,C
MQ"O&>8XAY'']L /;T&H3]UG2V3E8"6/P-RXB6D,X=;:W@F 8!F'MF/OH4\"-
M%8^ 2J/V?#AF6PCRQ(LLV7;2NLV/N(R%JP1+"I48T-^XBUM"NL0$=AJF?=JR
MTTD0,Q1<'DE%D1LE415SZN7,O,[5"ZW(68=[' $<XRS']\@(<&:JP0.$<IFH
M$IT$&!9P:NL$%Y*![:#0`2$'F6OOPK:.I9*HJ7#QO(T`>D;5,_E)8(*X28P2
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M7Y:GV,Y1@M1(`JJ.VUB'1[^WT.;%PAQ7+4/)2 I6@Y%"'J+@#[,M*Q5\O9Z2
MJ]<>1>6>A2UIX.Z:"EI6LN9U^'6O?\5.2RO)([6%"9>#GGSD'YW[>6XD"&DH
M2>K-$R?HG:3S/K) (W\8`[#5$Q0'^(L!X%]0/[Z'[DAGIV-9T]IIA:Q+C# %
M]JOQ6F@$CONI"I'=(:TH70H2U3S_J]T]5(XZP$;NLZ)9*5<=`Z23T32E:>2!
M`=IZY,0D?8'(BR?L:(0IS350#O/.)*1?X*^DP<N9>HQ&X&&[0VAAI^(LSN*)
M\VB!RKAV;30!N%Q%$P+GXX#0[!=+D'(C];WC<LU1:-!EGCS$=@R3;4IW:9N2
MV7-LH/?8@.SK[RO9-3%U,:<83J")C-I#TE%FILGVF-8355X/K;P'6RFVI9$H
MJ ,HARRVJ@8VTJ$>$L3^;X0:WHM\>(H-K4@][^/Q*#ZJ%@8.JS\@%LD<Y1M=
M+5H5XKDDD0\H30XHV.=P5<IV$;)NF6BGQ?KOIA6EG;I)&1F(4 @'GI+17.:<
MI8U54CS5,=.Q20@!F%G-`^UL'"$%NO,`U/^'O+:C;:.NKF3Q-M.,N\V4UQ_\
MG5<7=;0RVF[N!=TRSAMB#3Q@JH8LXPEI`HNSE-)DI[F8I*\'$.)'>HX.'#A\
MRNP('^XX=IC\4_UR'GW6B],)R$5-2*48C>+GR&KZ+9C"P"\P.V/GAD?,@SGD
M3*DDVN&AA3YHX7.\CAC"89AY?<=:I1!0CZD<5DA0IY%%T0:;DL,"B1[A>?&W
MVG^*W/6K1%<3'XYE[N\+]QX03<SS_T'-%K1(*TD;R3C2`P%]@$7+J(0)JG^Z
MKWGJGW4>R))XM++5T!_T;>"L_$=LQZLIN)H)<2D2:-!P@0G8;2KJ.8./B453
MDT@N%L>AE8LDBPM)RR7IPIJ<$30V`(C'+02K4D98^:#9BI:IAY';]'7MZ^KK
M0ABJ8RHD>.4I%1T'PGWACH&NON[^`71R\I$$QB,B<;IFO[2+2DO7-_0J#=?,
M$=!\<);M,EM:2<'?%SQO\A90A..PNV6T!<H^AF5[Y"J$:R!F#F/P:N,I:QA6
M/ G0`Z#<82CW..ET=@XU`UEE/8,F98^262T+ZI0SFG#0O "=";:UM-636H95
M[C(;M[8@^QD1K%W_"];79Z.6[Q$-!%P[*36S7>:V5ESV`2;;6LQ]DD;_%4O2
MED2HSY'3S*P=&X$9!JPK5H?][]LA5\=/>&&%(VW(V@T9;#>2(&3&8'F!O!6[
M&(054C8'`#3/FR,94X$18=<.=7V+YG@$5DU -KU:T)FU'FG//-RC--1Q)*LP
MGD9,RB\QM )Y]!YX_SW6(D#&X>+Z'*U><.UBI]G3S(JL]&1'S\8RD3A::A%H
M%/&-T/P^K=V($8+H@Z$T;T+<CY$5%-_4*AV\B5O0O?HA]JJ3NXO;[? ]2IAG
MY%A)`=S6@)A#W0-DR"@#0&+C6?T=[D/&CYM-6'?B&E)J!!%YA *N,7],V&!"
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M3Z\W3RHT/M0.`6*U/W2JQ;.@F#@\70ZU3S0..+;2<\@9%U3KHQ>)W[EV6,8D
M@0F&E+#4"BF7S+.LQA-)RY5!VAH,ZIP*8"$9A/(<,?62U(,]!G,$$:C/B2A#
M*&6-T:M<.D:ZHY=2V.O?2VYVUW L+6,F1BV<IG/ H0V<H\I(3][VH^$CJ#-T
M#0QT']W?[W7U^V(,LLBGJWL.5==#3UR'/8#R\&*,+<+S>8&*M?_>Z[XWB[CL
M^RWIM\,9E[2R?'@$B!6[7<5RS,,:V=Q="%O65ERK"QG4`0DN@ GX@"0[PPJ,
MQP9.[$O.D0K#U1^\YG"E`'G-XM#O$Y;"/AOSW*-K2'6)\"AR#G5*'.21X&F?
M->A7SE_EN&!@CDJZM=?41=:8I*ULO_CE1IB7/@2+Z&+1B[$OA%^,MP"MK- 8
MKR##UOBFHM9X]4U0;&3H+,0Z3P2/!,U#(!0R%L,H[#AV%-<@"-@XS@CJ?KU2
M\0'%,$_.N<V-6AA_DP`%&SX9AF42!57).;;(X-4(+MTH`@N*(M6CLP-1"OUD
M'V6Q> -IHDDG>):H"*1(:KS&H>7@J(5^#*30Q=B.7-.3R<?)I=-V)LL\'N<]
M6I&5<)#>KXS/\P/D"2N=(-H:42M;9;SQM#Z^C$\O4X>7]?9UA3OIV#*SIZ^S
MJ\]$71PQ!2M:XR3.=GDHB!; M.;'M$_9CO(Y1*2U$FOT>PN4H1-Q^49<1@$-
MADAJ&\8IY6$C"P"90KV?-;)MV7EC,(Z4V%E@&6;?F6&\OJCFUM>@O\3>JD>,
M>G _0L6.#*+$`-U1:24C:Z:P8N*W@]#6#23#R2ZK+,!L[])5*N,9,,MT$B4&
M3;C6]N:0V7L$M)!L(FFVX5/X"),W4 PNL(*D61K&&TB>Y)O+6',E8=W7$-+K
MN;Z&'<5!@SY,PSA#>E&"[<CD^<&T#W]JI+DTU^YR(:@8?:D.GIVCY1Y-<[)S
MROUC#AY[A//$,&XDOR(2)! $KBLR*H ;M#UVQIQ#!83:@44%P'U'2/EAV*[G
ML16AUBHC`&B?FIT1`ZB/&$9$:CEYC=3SZ!3E>:L>*.99\'S ^HAA1 GV-R=&
M<\#+),ABUKF$/OT(7RB(L=+ VB&N-S(YA"F4E(!3W\5YJ:+:B/&J,R>Y9<1M
M+<3Q5'[$HQ1I<+N*0-OB'9H?:+(-B_Q(!0`TBP%-=4#!S5-WI\<)X<(JPVT,
MTXI/40''GFF#+LD2M+M(<T&[>:!>VBA4[)$'E/7F*7H\APL?Y,$*5B-D3P%V
M1RLI[;SQV 44D)77W&>>UT-')G.2VW>%K)S1";)D<^"$!\LNV(#8=<NDB!:;
M/SJ 1]E'R$'-\^(F;$%S&NUZ\3=#LA)4Y)-;#^B0(<="NQ'U2F6?VGJ 3[D"
MT0%:/'=90NNLU!:)[6A=4](1=!I0<!*IX!1'=$S8?#[O1LZ,=F.4#$DYQS67
M#C8VM9H3,_%0L'62X9SRM(8P9FW3,$:Q%9?+025HCCD?(4[4H$)].>8UCX]M
M,^,4J 9D)B-:8&V*`D0.-8;2%K&2HGD(*Z*L9/3%*:N^&)QJ`4QD#VC:NFU7
ML+E9#['?':*04LYF/SH5.R6+A;9N,W>%\CDW.\T(2UC?*:(A\OXAY-](,IG"
MR-7TI5FA^)1>HBKRS*7(N:P^5@YP&AM7DR#6E2*G/ZV6#".C(],+J;N8<[99
MQK^,1L9U/#.LSS*DQ)#>PA^CSMP.]3MR'8&*A%2!G90])@5P+)=1?M<QUL;9
MEAF4%)[#TH7[@]#6&88%2R(U#II<ULO?U&1PYSTYZ?6X/3.9?#N&<8YMS^IT
M191:5FJ$0.U^ZUH6<(F;B /72F63X_4`(EH?(=](47":DZ/5*\*W%VH?(VKP
MH(]C=6SH-@='HWE36K[<0:@/6.U0QM9VLN :QCC6V8AAQGWNL&V'=.;)AJ[9
MK7\&"8PA-XR;R8)+_^1*1=5MX1XSBK9RLM(XZ^1Q17)0X4[')JCI35A3D[]_
M3N)F-(WY6\:703X6TS#>C*60O*0U@5;LN*HFT<E"50RCG<HP;L%O6X+>S6-N
M=[V]EQ:Y4'"[I/=;L21R%U@SH'"4$QS:::UGPTG"J3>[&DZ N!]%WX,[P=P6
ME'%8KJ".-O2;H@*M`X;Q%@U%M_PNT^6)16MV8>BMVA6=Y#LPC NZ;D\!J%Q(
MCG&;M#=E/305\8[22U:C@$YT_G)<1VN]VOOH@R:!3_HXE49\.[;BC;"A`)O&
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MW/\@UIMWM+*>5JP;(J2&&5)D""EP"L*H`)<$O5& $;(5P;/P/L8,NL!H@2"1
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MP5GYUZ2S;.WLE$?\%PU2PCT,)"/)4)-(<4"M@H GZLC)`J0Y[(@NVS",O_'L
MA';CY5BT!^7,_3_>.)X)R$B"3CEV)J4@EVB4K>Q+V((J^TI(: *J0>WO*]Y1
M%$SDB2;O=*<CC@37BW\G)="$<U/AGT8;I.@5P_@F1^A+HWLK&MLQT!_-[/0]
M^WW)B:Q=Q8[@]>._%2W;ILIZW<-2T1&RU2>QY%D5Y#%P;&L\JX(\0-VH53B0
M`2%$075JA?MMLCQBV=:0F1S:&LT-):)DJS)K8T1Q_&T]?/L=HC$9?H#M)(=D
M$ZBSHP&"L%LG#ZHW5AE\,+)AK#$X:MIJ-\^<.;-5_G]&CGRM\97K!G'/])EI
M_Y,COPI+RL/IIUUT[6)Q'92]&LN:GG\OHVTLO^X5E$?^L-X@_C# ,N\:0_O0
MI>UNGP70VMC8&@R%ZF&=@Y:EX2R\I^.:T/1*6_X=VO&UL3'8%()IBB[?;.1\
M4+1P&QL-Q8.0/VXB+"2<LV8_6CYZ:?["G&AWNV^VPDJP&B_R@!J/[*TS"P9H
M-@?Q`\AO:8$/Q%[T&QI&#=9]!):Q-H7R]D;&<=:V<Z$./,AH*\Q9:]SLR>!6
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M*L,(X]N>Y/AH.A$!1A\V=VQO#;4UA$+P"8^F@V;_2"1UEJ@99XPW`".?QP35
MG@S:[V(V`Y>PSJK-4$E8[&?&@WP]!4EH3JW5J:MTZFJ=6D>2O%J4&J4%8[VV
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M`D\R(Q6^Y*OPKG_<.=-XZ4>9\169[Y%79-XAK\C\H+PB,RZOR(S>SE=D+KJ#
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MD'C+'@KJ*UG ,.\!X"*@X=\^2'0``GK@L9^.T#2/`2Z.4/XI!=6%XA=\HUW)
M(B$Z.54E*CH9THO%TLY!OMM.W5M9LD1$#O+-=N>$O(FN9*E('%0WV^$WR_ 9
M;[9[XB7QDOQF.;[#V^TJ^)L5^(RWVU545<@;[$I6XCN\X<Y:?X'?K,(W>,?=
M_-TM7,]J?(.WW,DR:_B+<:%[<P75G$M9<HQ7BMX!3ETE_HL<X]5 =YQ:IU/K
M=<K4J0U$GPC_:J Z7KHM@Z=KD 9IBY80OQE2?=FH;_T[)R&Q2=_Y=TZLN\#O
MKE7W_DGH8,D:=?=?1:,L6:MN_Y/PP9'5J1L`+7[>K&X`G,_/6]0-@/+[>GW_
M'S\WR-O_%&1"&AZ->L1-.M6L4RTZU:KAL8WA$>3>MOG@P6/:[H,&MK_#<P,B
MEFK/@P1^LU-#@K^YK@@<=GG@@-]<K^& \X5;WZUAH4KMR8-&V <-`_A6NH-3
M9?) 5P.XT@4ZU-H`_G-GQR"[Q/A..>!#\(9NQ%N")@.8H<]LYU.WHWN$N![-
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M:F[Z?/8]:\J^Z<N_4N9?"_F[6P<_V[WP25_^6IE?`_F?S(R\^YDW?]N7?Y7,
MKX7\MR>_^^N/_=1?_FJ97P?YO[H5>_"$+W^=S-\,^>_MP!J^X<M?+_.W0#XT
M#EW\)U^^*?/K(?\75/^7??D;9'Z#^/"6;7>&;WSJXA=]^=5L-"S9*NIJU=40
M!O!3A:U&C8\FG6K6J1:=:M78VN;#%BQM@:>ZV&K_G]R?[=#?R?"U8PI\M4^!
MKYU3X.NZ*?"U:PI\73\%OG9/@:\]4^ K/"&^:.&L>7R)YO$EP./O(AY?PCR>
M;Z D.5_"/+X;#[^EZR:)TY<`3[YZ%\_?)<4Y?27>1R[PHG/-Z4N(YQ;_14Z?
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MJ>!9_'?!NXTPSJ''VO[CA/T<C./-8K/ `_Z-(0//[3>&%E0:\+BH!);J_%"*
M#P%ZP&NQ*E>(\LKU='?GN@MT]O8]K^0M]VD3]*GEG9L^MN[@SUXS?;H6^G3?
MF5\-ON-=/WW-]*D&^O2F"T??^E37:Z=/M3@O[WK+G[W_QM=.G^J@3]>\K>]O
M/O"=UTZ?-D.?GKSPWCU7_>MKA\:W0)^6AS[]V1LW_?MKID_UT*>[W_F!L7\_
M_?/73)\:Q!NV?./)RLU]OWDM] D#4DI -_U8UV#/\:Z^`^&C^_W2Y5-_T<12
MI5&<W\>I)G%A']UF#5HKRQ=>-9> [GI_9\W)K0?048[/K?A\"IX[6+)L*RI9
MVL2IKD&/9/D!O-LNGJIQ-8BOXQI:7I*(E]$0M$J\T"KU0DN!KLP%G0%_X:&<
M'G9"%?V@[N%U>A?$DI+*':*R\@!!I$G#Z=5Y6V7\K&"TWQ2G\ZYOG($Q@Q+X
MVADUXW@'C-K5`B]W'/M'.UMPW ZC=C7YRQW'_M'.%ASOA%&[J['+'<?^T<X6
M'%\'HW97U)<[COVCG2TXW@6C=JTBESN._:.=+3B^'D;M6K8N=QS[1SM;<+P;
M1NU:)R]W'/M'.UMPO =&[5J8+W<<^T<[6W <%H$6UTMPN>/8/]K+'\<4'*M]
MCJ7:YU@J?8Y+(*7C2O#HBOUH4RMEKR,>T05?O!N>*\3H88X!.;Y'B%LP^L_U
M-YX&$)Y&GV"#6+82H;D8,Q>O*/.F5^(W^-=U2):2:[#P-^#YG>_Y=;^I,OZX
MH%-O%SWY[LK3Y*Z<?M<*_9F7WD7TC9665(K&(\H[7ZH]GJ7:XUDJ/9Y5D**X
M%CHNMD$P9LCK*0\9%N3U+"6OY^I]Z^\^\+S7/[Y8>OU*R>MY\RU?_+>KWOM4
MT7ST>CK_\M=EG[_MZ:+YZ/7\\/,+&C__%\7ST>MYYE,-33T?*YZ/7L^_'+_U
MRHT;BN>CU_-=;VK^>/=??J=H/GH];_AJS][$AN+C0Z_GU_ZN^LKJMB>+YJ/7
M\Q,/_D'_'67Y^0QO%=E26G*5GA57ZUG!7DW$QGKQC<[!_=W'NXX*NCJ\M,04
M*Z]QR6T-1F AN50A_3.M5%S@WRJCI>![$VABK2RA2%/1F"K'[6P0SS2YL<B>
M=@2W4_;BB@O\R^WXO\]K1[CMN.5XK-7"[.*QDM?U,&WQA[%>:Y22S]6-#UJ&
M%PI EZN4:##HLG:#^.0QR2;)M7!,LDD#^20\[)RVVP%[&! F]E!L4+]+C,I%
M(E"Y5$CN]DK>^GP2ZXMZ*E[>6X!^`:1,(TT2Y30"WRM8I@TQ9#V!:4.-,?N?
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MW/[VWJ(?/'^TK[X?_-4>->,8H^,/;SCU^G_\U8]G`8[]HYTM.,;H^,[Z'7W&
M+V8#COVCG2TXQNCXI74//7?3_YT-./:/=K;@&*/CWW%[8V;58[,!Q_[1SA8<
M8W2\J\E?[CCVCW:VX!BCXQ_I^J-;FK;,AGGL'^ULP3%&Q__I\L]]XH&+/YP%
M./:/=K;@&*/CH]]\J_/-VN_/`AS[1SM;<(S1\=>^/G3'W8]];Q;@V#_:RQ_'
M')&^ER^AZ:=#L/7.@#*],Z"L)"#NEJER<0_M$2@KF2?N[1B45U"C??"M\$Z'
MW],_1^S*.X-L`T?>3QAS+]SM`!MH/T 9!<][?R<*LW>_J3+>6]"5WQ&'BAY<
M-KT.Z4T`&_0N@$OI&$*[3)^2R_!4\?]E.OZ_3,;_+X04Q?_WV?8HG6I9QM'_
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MP2 NPB \319]_Z#G_8/P'G5F$N3Y.HF2W\N@`]M$9)]7?K/T)O^Z1WJ_"._0
MXSSVO1L_^/0O<'?]#\1Q,3/+2@/^PL,\>L"5EF_5TU)T+?1JOV4(H#_VQ$/7
M7_C,HS^<I1! ;^6[[K2&:K[^S"R%`/KRKKSNB<@G;WYVED(`/5TW/?R=6\.[
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M+A43?'M3@*W:?58\&<V253M )]H46FTKY5U%`3K19K+\95/D+Y\B?\44^2NG
MR%\U1?[J*?+73)%_Q83Y#&]EU0YHJW9 6[4#9-7FU'KQ1.<2L0-2_I-I-HDK
MI!W[-)J2T<1;6>8:LU^D)=^+M.8,%Q1N$!L\QNS3;"+V5L'4YU:R1+1!):ZY
M.0B57".6*HOV8E&)5N1*+N0W'U<9NPN*;H'.>RS54!RMTE"!:M=?!4-"G7P3
M*#CY)D!6YH>;G;;K`Z_^/HP`[2<(%-TC\ K>^JPP&XK:9E[>6]R'D0^I_Y_[
M,/ZSP(TI#'T&;_ST4R^,63^>H[!)*<P/J3D*FRZ%H0>H8;'QR<=7SU'8Y!3F
MA]0<A4V7PM"?M_WAV[[XSL <A4U.87Y(S5'8="D,O;,';OS6FTL7S%'8Y!3F
MA]0<A4V7PM#7OG3="Y]?T#9'89-3F!]2<Q0V70K#R(EGOG#H;:6?FJ.PR2G,
M#ZDY"ILNA6$<S+-OKZIXQ_5SUHK)*<P/J3D*FRZ%8533BH<K+G[H0W,4-CF%
M^2$U1V'3I3",41MUCG_NF<?F*&QR"O-#:H["IG[+]OZ0]HNHB,,`11QRJED\
MVKE$[(54B_AYDQM)&!3516+WGMAMK-9^M\K\:/^#!;5L$YLG",I[`H/O/'45
MQO[W0FVMXH4FUTEX'=16M$^(?C=J$#"Z8(*PP<&".@^*[9/UD G+&QB(M4\8
M%\@PY;-VT,/B/6L'_=X!B@1<\J.O/W*FYP>OHM^[M:@G^M5^RQ# 2, //+&C
M<N799V<I!# 2<-W]+]UWR]=^/$LA@)& O]E2\[T/_'*V0@`C`?]L;,_F[3^;
MK1# 2,!O+9A_W^\.SE8(8"3@'QW9\LSF6W\T2R& D8 /'1SN_]Q#WYVE$,!(
MP,/B2S=_[CM/S5((8"3@9^_\R+<_^*6G9QT$4%\LUY& Y7H?>GE)0'RT`W>9
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M$<-PG]FZH'LVIDOHGDWHVDGK<+C*+R- +<89JE3Z>/R_`2]&'1'B9[IYC1-2
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MQ[#9\RX=]@F1HQPSVZ/=Q/Y'.#M-?W5_\OL%_D4Z)R&^`T"<9-A@_UIG<SEG
M'>H73@K!F;YU?W=KW)%^X:02G.M<Z[>_>U7_<-((CB[E[?CQD_J',XC@)!UO
M>6O%KP[W"V<PP=ESS>M79;]XH%\X0PA.GG[:^I^W[>T73CK!^>NVG=]_T["G
M7S@9!&?O_>]_L;GF?''8FA#M^D3)KD\4['I<`3GP=9.M?<Z<);.[K17TB9Y(
M+/M34ELE@-!J]6NM@F7WLOYY,,8IME8+J\H&8VA^*)CV?=U)`^O=FZ6?2"S]
MPW;?:92S_'3^$F3^G/$3E[>H$HFE?]CN.WX@"V0!@?3%F\L":2>0O@!C62 +
M":0OHE06R"),8BZ%$,H"64P@?3%CLD"6$$A?D) LD*4$TA<5(@MD&;$2?&$`
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M)6: :,TA73*8;-4)]V6Y[_LX@"Z3HTLA=).GC=F0L&9/`%T61Y=*Z*HFK5QP
M_99_!M!E<W1IA.Z-IKEM%N]'`71#.;I!A*Y&E_61Z_E O!R.;C"AF_N(<=7[
M-WP80)?+T0TA=!<GNYK+C[X50&?EZ-()W?1O3SB[KGPE@"Z/H\L@=#_^N>/ 
MKE6[`NALX+-VM9*UJR76;KJ3W0V%.YLL,(K<Y< E?@E3;9B[8A*0Q8JGWED>
M5$T<&-C*%6O%6<!->N;"BZ+O;SO A5#@._MNQ `^?:] @57G?/=FU8P@5">,
MX(_%,^0L3:_8P37M-'X\H[16"3TT:362M'E<S_"EU?CQHY&DY5'/7]I =+:&
M;=#@\#I;VQI<5KA&B]:0-FC7D4 HYY#VX?#Q")_;U4TTHU*958$_X+X<"/[Q
M<F<$&TVJ(LBU:Z1VLVI!T$@S( =E5J'$^.:/'\\_Z\+YC,ADRQ\PV?('7+:"
M`9.M8,!ELP^8;/8!EZUPP&0K''#9B@9,MJ(!EZUXP&0K'G#92@9,MI(!EZUT
MP&0K'7#9RN#P`,G&CZ2L;,Q2+9=V@!4PUVF!B\A=)3B&^_90C5 !&$+F"_S'
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ML">Q[U&9)M"'F 3IY,X`&QW>C@ZGM;'!A9Y93VM[&PA41I@KZ,L$R9W>214T
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MOJW3'&W0`M>S[UD>K,CU1>*(W[,S<+2'K5L;M#J\DSM=GM8R824/@ZD.[Q17
MJ\,-M1@OI%,/AV?];%\\;8HG&Z08'GT\%&],?;/I@]-U,/Z^S@<WE9GK508]
M/-UJ5)>LBJ^G!Q\,NGCJ74P$K7B.@%[9"/F*CU"@^ AVQ4<H5'R$(L5'*%9\
MA!+%1RA5?(0R>%&Q$=CS:"2K(OFJO3()BLGG<GR*-;L:9K2V-5L][H:VCLFM
M'1WD4>;_6.L0GVL5\)B3W572MY.(6 5O-7GQA0ZPS]7PVTEV3ZO+`^S7J0;6
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M"W21-O0<B^&F`$T8V>8[!R?^045$2J6'U/Q\TP:_2-/ JUDU)PC;S:K3^I^ 
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M<M[>IX ,/+I2,@S&,^:79A?MF_>)`C+PZ$K),(2,4M_\W".[_G)4`1EX=*5D
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M1W.R^%OM`R,-FY/\F)B3_)B:DX*8F)."F)H3>TS,B3VFYJ0P)N:D,*;FI"@F
MYJ0HIN:D.";FI#BFYJ0D)N:D)*;FI#0FYJ0TIN:D##:71/^<\%)$[YPP#T6Y
M].:G`LJ=[*X27FK"^&6]N@I43M$[P7P3U6 :1H5?.8WW3<Q@OHDX*D&<Y)O@
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M5$*?M/?+9J?VVY#HTPC]`W>5=MV=&!K]($+_XN*NI6NR3X9$/YC0KU]2<JFI
M['1(]$,(O>KGE>]?]J0F)/VD$_J2-4LZ=A<4A42?0>A#FR_V/<F$ESSL#J-T
MV'=@*+SEER''J,Z!3QWL+A>ZFMB=E<:3S25W>;#!KQR6!T;Y?)3DURU9HZ<Q
M1,EXT?D7X!+OR8?:VEI?!3EZ`DZX]D@M9M6-06,M@"F!GD0<D=SKA7"Z9/1 
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M( ./KI0,>#+YT('E1O4UQQ60@4=72@8\)ZV[^T:G59'G`X^NE QX:CNT9YPN
M"%UW%G2=) ./'GH=AU!'84]_K 7/[L1SXB;IG+A)G0,_.I@UD NM35Z7HZW9
MTS*RQ8%6`;A6TG?4)K75+P<BJ]!@\GM7%)"=4*C0\#.>WZ97S$X82'_V"@V^
M?DF02?K9X!CA:V1+0(D&6MO9Q-X02='(>)[]>=*JQ%EP$_6CFX6(]2)B98V0
MXMCE;L6X?I.B9\$'4AHV)_DQ,2?Y,34G!3$Q)P4Q-2?VF)@3>TS-26%,S$EA
M3,U)44S,25%,S4EQ3,Q)<4S-24E,S$E)3,U):4S,26E,S8D29\$'?DZ4/ L^
MD-(P[T2YY+' 6#7V9J(2GG)Z/0T37 X0O!-5\)S3V]5845-6<8'85HUM[4YG
MA\,C9*$TJ6O@)2?[ZRBH<'@KEG1;/5?.[Q8\":-[B34U!=03.$L`'G/"Z.G!
M``.]ZFF+3CCD+K8S2#YUOBR0?)9X62#YA.BR0/*YOV6!Y--<RP+)9W26!9)/
M7BP+))^G5Q9(/B5M/R%QQ9FE3*EF*5.J6<J4:J:94C%/ZCW7?N9W5B)>R)1J
M]F5*788Y-,WTG>"JK*].S;SIRW/DT$SA,F^::37U/VY.2MXR.IQ>6+\\8=3@
MS2LN.QI&+ZP8/J/N#ZT[;_@DC%Y8H_N"Y!LV7A!6+ZR*W?[UZ$4/SSD41B^L
M0YWSU\^OWE!V)(Q>6/EYP<TS-_]?W/$P>F&MY2<6OO]V4UCSA=6-PYME&^F5
M">]YQNXXL6/5^[EGS91JECS@9O506";<Y0BQSV8I4ZKYK)E2S0%>;#Y3ZO^S
M=RW@4577>IUS,B%#DGDE(0%Y' +)Y$7,$TQ"'D,RPSO1F8 2-9+ `%$2:!($
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M@:& TIO>P$O5O7U,PR^"G?;)*0KQEQLS`FZ%S,'>C*1@)UUZWR(#8;>X`A:&
MN3$2F1LC=@)9X&;G)07=+I(#HV%ORWG,A<W,;Y$UHM\BZVC\%@4MM>N<N5BU
M=$YR%'Z+R (?V*)#"$DMG9/,CSU)9^Q)%L2>9&'L21;%GF1Q[$F6Q)[D*/P6
M12?)GZXRR%%&E7)XQ&-#HE:<Z[ZJ/.A3<8RBY3/3!,")N6DI+15R7_AF[OC>
MS+:6B,S5G\3<%UEQ2NR>'5A_T[DO2J/Y_41ZXD^!L%^M2N,>N2\*K1KFOBB-
M!ADDP >-4!(V6(DDJK3&TYM]`12I=T>N,TTI9V"%:)Y4EOZ$(.>%`HY_G6&4
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M`(W[>=Q*<2\H[@1L^#F"<1>/3\2XG>(+H)7G.BC6',C-H'@+Q7(PE@EV=[#C
M`KXCD%X.-IS.7]+,VS2)ZBPM+RU=6@$\)1O*O9T>3/%0RB1,R8%GW9V^MF4N
MK^RZT.UM7^%U*^V;# <\G2M<0)850QB?`M.X']M'%^.8NA&GUJH76YE\Y_*3
M<KGV*-5DX=8J+)9F1M$GI9IR((U&M(_AR&GU>C00MH'9!))Y`M[@6(14BW!K
M6!L&87Z0+UV9.\%5#]B-TA(^NGZYMG YJQ-_FS;QM^'$W^:QXL>HC6\F]5WH
M;EY!HO6Z/<O<S=B)FMU*'PK?4&ICL_;OWT-_[S=&VE ZD1U%1%?:4!I:?O@-
MI8%ZM*'4QC>4^KPA^TDEI66S0HZWV8UI9\]<QJXH]<K 9*[65'VQ3B75IVT,
MS&7&AAN.29XA,,DS%";YAL DWU"8. V!B=-0F!08`I,"0V%2: A,"@V%29$A
M,"DR%";%AL"DV%"8E!@"DQ)#87+VS&7&$I.S;RXS-MSP+_\RTF?Y%*6$JI5H
M\P(9SMC$<G!Y.MN]KE;?\L4^7T"C5 &+/#Q4"1=ZN":I"EYTJ_H+&]R *=7P
M3) VXBKP13SEB.LREIV_J$3&)G3UK95]7KFG;_.6P0&Y=\O H-RU<:/<[9>O
M[MK8LU;>U"^7R3T#\GI_G[^_:]"_EM;U4X;44YF#%2*WA#5A`"X=YJBE8/5(
MS)O"Y3.7-'1!QP;;Q'FPRAVJ5[D`/BO^RZ,OOO"Y\&[,GA$;TV':Z6H3S-V0
M;%X;U"=BF\J?$3T7L7U&QI(;CDD-<G.BPG)DZ'>'XA@3/1?QCDDM<K,S<\Z1
MI[>^%\>8Z+F(=TSJD)M?KO X6GX2SYCHN8AW3.8C-W<\5>?NW1G/F.BYB'=,
MZI&;']\XU_]2=3QCHN<BWC%I0&Y>^Z>C]6^=B.=YEYZ+>,>D$;E9\^O;5WVX
M^V <8Z+G(MXQ:4)N?O/0S=GKIQ^(8TST7,0[)F1U?YY]Z9Y]N_?',29Z+N(7
M$]*+V,54YFPD$T-I4.CM]*WRM;N7R^VK+G1#/]EVV,5TR.MXL_KT7 &.WZ#:
M=LA@2;[X8F[;\1&</,VO9-L16EZU[9!)/E1'L^T(U*N$B:S>S YGRT*403'&
M++!B0B7[RVL"R(8)2A^1N#$AJ8<VP 1SKU+<BL55FV^MN*@4_WM8<1L6G_'I
MQI77_3RHN*04/Q56W([%G]ZYPWK-W(\#Q9.4XG\+*^[ XM\<\'SG\^2C@>(F
MI?C)L.(96/QP^J_+[BEZ+U \62G^15!QCEBF<G2F7<R"V]A6DGJY# L580H=
M<?#'!^MOOOO]XTAJ$LJ5'JYL(2W)S*@=/\V/.:9C0NUB-EQ>?.T4<N/TVT;N
M:(WYZ9%8?]G/[Y;#'.O0W2:#X'&ZO&X7['?2MA6[. 4.M?-C1M<$;5LABR->
M5[4SLFMV1G;-98]=<=F3@Z%(+GM $8[>4D@1#C#AG%!\YW U(2?*?>=0<V?I
MSA7=C2FS(;W@[*AU'1'5F+%*_<A<UO2IN;J)AI]0+LZ&6G=LN.&8Y!D"DSQ#
M89)O"$SR#86)TQ"8. V%28$A,"DP%":%AL"DT%"8%!D"DR)#85)L"$R*#85)
MB2$P*3$4)G/@9\7QCXF>B_C%A'_CEVEJA7*XQ,-#%<JI>':Q$EYHY@JM*CHC
M5Z=6L$$EIE?#<XI*X0V4Q@SR`PQJW$&N`]2(ZJS7(M2%57/"3!)BH*)BF:,E
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MU6L2G?8FU(55<T)6Z(%70IIJUZ6OSELS%7*4UDR#NUJ<,BCIT^'U9AZ:`;*'
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MN'7^N_.N3Y)P?L1MOLGT&/8`15<)K^/O!'CD)OI-@2TWTJ\9TMCO1"ABOQ:8
M<M->1C7S`*O\FE)Y'T^L$I)HHCMTJ0AP&?[?"=O8G5S41KR*["KAOP58D<(F
M=DUFUPGLFL*N9G:=R*ZI[)K&KND8<V$[Z&IE5QN[VMG5P:X9.+1-P=S90*UZ
MI='9[%K6K/C,],F>-J^LV.O/DBO(P68!EI/@HF:G3UXE^^1VV2TOE_%OI>R2
MO?)BO"Z0EV&BCTV^0$IB#C>G8L@$7<V=JAM-^4)O&P47NY7SMT%*A@W-Y%P3
MI GDFK-]^V8:\@Y@/ 5.K?K\2O6CY"78Q8W]A62P9+$]`NO8UPG^8,22A;_M
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M`/_Y;^1\`B0;="UQ^OR;`:Y6'-""9(>>)<ZV-8/<@31(#HJW;KH:]I_&J<;"
M(5XJ@U);_&L@A5/*I/B2KCY(L:0`<RL+4A:E>?S=X)\QQ%,F4<KRKGZ8V%C%
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MC38.@#2ZL9U=?-I\IGMP+LWPL<!#ZDGS`HX/+S"D!1P?9K9TROR)$W",^&5S
M9UM_C[]OCI)BA<*6SL&NP9Y-?>P,'0''B6DEKU8.S&LP?1QT(GT*9-[/\^V0
M7O"-)PZ=VNK_*&*^`_/G6(5']F5'SL_ _ M>_>;N.TV1\S,Q?]'J`]=*J9'S
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M`->1]6-@Q;$#1=A!JX)SP)%%TK12IC4S*3B<167H-[ D*;'%P?"K*>@Z,>@:
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M(D/6K$!W"SK:O(.[OY;8\5F2<K1Y:/F0H\T[`NZO`_7X?6;"865W0FE3I"/4
MDUCY).T^^O+#'Z$>J,=YS079S7EEJZZ:'Z)\06)KK@$;*H?0S1YQRZ@WEM:-
M>-F!6F@"F;5PIGJU">9T,)GMVE[+KY"J6Y.8$7&E8G2I*/TP2<G"9O9&Z2#A
M?ZGMJS3TF$8L-8YL?,F-]S!:00]8X8WWL.%[F%Y2XSULI#V,["$"=ISC/6SX
M'J:7U'@/&VD/(^N6@"7P> \;OH?I)37>PT;:P\A6*6!+/M[#AN]A>DF-]["1
M]C"R/ OL1ACO8</W,+VDQGO82'L8V1$&]K.,][#A>YA>4N,];*0]C*Q"`SNB
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M8!*2&8@)`2:)+-9!)*!4!(1@*?WXU*]UH5(_EU86ZT^QHN#N5_VT?E)0:7$O
M:K6X1Q0!!00+I10AO>?>M]V923(A;_)E)HD_'^_==^\YYYY[W[SSSOW?<V"#
M=!8%]],]`D9#-.:XJ%B]Z.J5&)/5#C>3,@5^3W''*V"B3Q2R5(:\;Q-S#^IV
M@-02!E!&\+SVV!;,7JUC$W[C)\H-4!,P=%EP`BF;`%*570#G(QCNHS JT7);
M@6E4W@%@5'8`&)6H9T:V`\"S=.G5-+:ED>'_*RY?@9'E$=UN--@A-X?%WSNJ
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M)O6OF[[KKH=ZSAQ'+$O]J9K*ZJ4]Y[<`T0\3%WSWV,'^)WJ,3+A>+FP_6;5N
M5D^0B;UI\Y2WK[P6;936HO&=4!C@[5M+ROD5YG&0@QQ8WH\RFW2VMTPZV5DF
M*&?26]F -C@]VH0&/WKEY T_1$MQB%&A.40,3%7>P2?3M<,B0K=8>97B7R-4
M!I!SCT)H3UF<7]E.I6QG&6%=4L(;!?)[>XT?LT4PLXU.["G#!&<*RX#E.S7E
M.TDYVLWT5>YKE<AO<'Q3CX5Y;NT;G'TQT#5V3;R]<Z0,5YTGSK@R?M_#A\DH
M?0,7@SZ?E@+YEUQ$TPO\VN*^?(H"?@]U=RG3`*[)+AH]9]66K4=ZJ09PQ7+@
M'Y_[\V[OT5ZJ`5S/Z[?]_1O3'NRM&L#5KN;W;TX:M:ZW:H!F3]]U\,!SYMZJ
M`5PI6?_,:UO2G+WUEQ#7$?Y9?^/ZM!^^[:4:0"_[$P=>_772_F]ZJ0;0!WUL
MQU^=HY_M?1I JU]4/- B]4#'0A(YHSGHE$C1F(,./.@1%0U1F.EIVK7+IRRY
M@MJ9(LM"-\LQQC$%9H'5#@^3,A/L'Z>:Q'=!C<893#W\`XQ^!0-8VF/%^(U7
M+UK*I*1)0DP)`[#ZNH"CVCB*[9S;A&?]1-T,LSG/=9O"JJF6VQ)8<6/3;,PR
M\E8/P=EHR9D\1,6G+2H^;5'R:>/X4)_VY.5+5RYI`I;%261^;<^"A8OG-U._
MMMA&+@^SE+-(;".7AWH_OH/["1W<3^S@_H .[B=U<']@!_>3.[@_J,W[3-^R
M7UM4_-JBXM<6J5^;G0V'EBH[C"=G?'2:49@ZEWJ.YZ S&9V\9J/JSCZG9.VU
M"15^C7-9`EW)$SR'.8FU)-0$NNQHAPL($=7A?"$A,@+SAC*?=BR8T8]L9HUX
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M"^1%-8#1D!8`O==2)@Q45M[,OHC_B_RHC(6L-F!Y+0B_T]#RQ_]/)]2*X:R&
M6BFA%E F''X5-TA&U-H&<-#K1_,B&->>A&QB::&!2+U-9"#3*8NX@RM^VH@[
MN/(M4BQ@;E/3=?]]L#L1,,4!UZ*[NY1I`+& /TQIV6H^]5TOU0!B`>\9Y+[3
MV]I;-8!8P)*HNU[9?*2W:@"Q@.4OKGEFPM][JP;XN!"]40.(!;QBYT6EK]S>
M6^<`8@'+EC0\]/S!([U4`X@%3-]]6\TMEQ[NI1I +. [9Y;]*O[PM[U.`V@O
M1BE8P"AE-WJ4082ME;C/),H0A7O0ZQ<LF[=\7C,F1$/+,HKM3)]-\7_$LMQ,
M2DS<AIA?@2MX])^(7YZ=P/U%MW$4VSFW"4_Z"7D/U'<6]^<O:G"(O_,1F8V$
MC/B+4A!_40KB+TI!_$4QQ%_]L@7S5RZ>MQQ8F1;QUTKCBT;Y8/Z2"15!L I6
M&KDSL86BVUHP<UYB"ZO/8P`[KA_?R?H)G:R?V,GZ`SI9/ZF3]0=VLGXRW#NU
M,_4'P:<-P=5G,T+&)$8IF,0HBDEDSVT*'*KR-E1,JG6!]"0/A^HJ[ZS*PMRQ
M(,T:!Y9,<[OK70WU(,W"5,ASL]^#-,AW>?-7- /LR%RWY/HJ5CH"OS2KES0O
MP* )S0L(G6FD="1<[52SM)4@UE 0+$;\WXJ'&#/IQ@_T\]4@A?;%XUE:PLI%
MI9R1'$5(JFFY="&93DBJ>9AT(>DD)-7$.[J0S" DU4PKNI#,)"35U!JZD,PB
M)-5<"KJ0S"8DU>#YNI#,(235:.FZD,P%UU0U/'872;)G+D]Y?M%SQI[6`ECK
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M`$@G#K8X;WA]^"TG'5]UB4X\H>-YRK6GZNZNT4D@=/(NFS3H].^[1B>1T%D_
M^+DU(Q[M&IT!A,Y3W_\>QB_H&ITD0@=NVFH_]'S7QFL@H?/DO)D?VP[LZQ*=
M9$+GE\__[<XKYG:-SB!"1]A^]]\F7W"^=-@S(=OUT8I='RW9]?@$I,#QJK1I
M"Q>N6-#LR*?O\VABV9]6R@JD"$_1Q+I72PMAU2;6/A7&N^72(NFI2H/Q-$84
M7'RR[)25M0YDYT<3.W^_4]V-TL8/YUD_X^><IKN\/15-[/S]3G7[@2XDTPE)
M%6^N"TDG!I90`,:ZD,P@)%5$J2XD,PE)%4*H"\DL0E+%C.E",IN05$%"NI#,
M(2155(@N)'.)C:#"`+I(DCW%><KSS.Q\M <*N.<9F[%GLI![IEE9$?=$L[)B
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M(5R]!%+OW=<O^</]O]OK4V\H5R^1U'OXY6/Q]]1^Y%-O&%=O`*F7<%7<WG7K
M?/FF</622+V::[;-C7G#E]YPKMY 4F_8K8\TO!S]@4\]!U<OF=2K/['VVI,_
M?=>G7BI7;Q"I]_395;=_]O([/O720+5V38JU:R+6;K*;G0V#VZOL,):<I<"E
MFF6<-(Q>40/D8<5][RP6JF@`*WMRY8QQ=O"0EL/A3TZUY860KNY^CT$`GR4@
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M>3"4?>,Y=4??<@A'=9TRE'WC.75'WW)A_VAUP324?>,YA;9OS%+-4[X`\^%*
MMQUFDK,"<(V4K*8=`)60#P@A4X'_B"[3Q#@NL6JOS&A2&>2/3_F(`97G^I&N
M@?&D@SQQ\HEF`&W X9@TTM.@6##I"Q46:(.>I_2B].G,2\^3[J+TOBR8]$4*
M"_S30?>B(CU/6D?=BXKTQ?"L]+5CUT?WJO0\:1UUCRR8)V,LVO.SQTQQ0*'T
M!1[(YV@RC"._0!TNOD9)CI@B:7CQ`QY+HB1'3)$R[$ARO/XD)^A/LD1_DJ7Z
MDYRH/\D+]2=9IC_)<OU)5I 7DFXD\3UC5GR.9@7#:S:(L+,2?6!F0Q3ZQ1!=
M0+V+9D,T7M?*Z-TF4F)2?@CP;SJ'*V H6(3JDI^"!(U33^-/M/CE9/(]VH3E
M?GR\/N@"QDE&V_IR\_<==LR5:0*]AK&03,ZLL,WEK:]W.RHK:M$7VU ]K0ZD
M6C%PI:2O_A#7Z*W)IZB+H>3:!BL]7RW(LXPK.J&)`VD"4PMF]S(;8F&CQSL+
M*,+6C A;SY_[??7MZ\+J<AFQ&2/$T(P%@QTX:NB+BX.DZUG].'A_^@W+F\>\
MXTD(JGX\J?]):^*<.Z\[719,_012_Y(D3VGRZ6-!U4\D]=_:<&+KJG\&5W\`
MJ?\'\?;'?_S;$T'53R+U!S?=]6CKS%-!U1](ZO_?=4],_L>/#$'I)YG4KR];
MO<NY)#VH^H-(_>#&B\T3]$VBK\IL& IK7<[)GFF-=57DJ61EP^ .EU-R\(^6
M9E8*;'"QL^%PC.+JS08';"9MJR]VU<$4^,_%TDQ+A37#5?2-/-/.P8%6]N2F
M0;7+.[6QMJ$Z5WJ61\ ,EW=Z;;7+`R6($3(;1L)VS<\+[C#%W0P*;L=BA*QM
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MF9<W?/1<`;EUGV6<OGS[\O#0,R]O..@9OSPMBH?:8C!*T0LL!A'VT*]1BQ1E
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M`T\]5'T81+B$[AW'4]>_#[AJ;#$,AAD-3@?:2.GD:BA=F?;;(>2HK%#=^>Q]
M/PR>EJP%9D>DP/,NQ,E;#,/A)9>W`HDT.#S8!EBY`UYS>=E:(SB@S(Q[Y'-(
M>2K<6Z#NZTG&O<G4B,2U?H:#,^VDZ]P8`]FOOH/0'B*UD-?L9?R<W"Z6Z,YB
M2,-U`]*KZKH&EV?Z-&G9?4=F:^NR8LP]:C&,X-80"A)V9.*.D9?)G9'0/T-=
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M2C#FTN#/'GOIC">4Z^J%`=?H.E>*ZY"^\H9Z'5(/N9F>,1#5X%\LFMV\87]8
MZ)F7-WSTC-&Y/F@=>],U4[\."SWS\H:/GC%DV8PKKF[\>'5XZ)F7-WSTC''<
M=O1[)FW&U>&A9U[>\-$S!K?[9O>D^-)^X:%G7M[PT3-&_'MRWZ_O6W@B/.P-
M7M[PT3.&03Q<]M&^U(U?AH6>>7G#1\\8&S)VU%7]'EB_+RSTS,L;/GK&@)FO
M/K-RX+;"\- S+V\XZ!F_%:T&`_DV9F=&*7N/U2#"H4KOS(K:6GBO#+$`5H:;
MK)@D[?2S&J*AO!9C_UDIHG$A_3M*8_\YM/%"28<#X21C*%8Q\-$F7.9'M9;%
M_M-&`J6.B?80DNWQ8'V0$9)6)<:GU1 #>UWLK#\<<^%>::O!!F]Y9CT84_KI
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M/T_Q7<B8'*N$R4DD9X6X!YGS8MBAB)0K*)N='@G]0K-_B#4@Q@+-`))FY7T,
M-J'4KUT&#%7SAI"V0T2UM:^/P@[H>RR&(P4JZ@9]CU(V$Y6Y4>+.RDI!3 &6
M?,0J.51:6WG?AU;&9C\>ETG>8BFW"2^J49$5/2WL7BG>4WAJO"UM\T7\D]4P
M%C)9;C8ELAKZ7BA*2-D598?[2!GB;EYY<??&],<0#W(K%++Y=UZ.=\[Q7!30
M'=VY4IOPL)^(=T&)^I"<MZ]==U&9-A%=LV3756]^/O3KGJI-7L0>K4W$T!P[
MU?_5P]-[K#9Y$7NT-A$IT]QOR\%W+^VQVN1%[-':1#Q,\KFM'WPPN\=JDQ>Q
M1VL342]9CVY:<Z2DQVJ3%[%':Q.Q+?_F[EJ@HZJN]I[<)&22>2>0A.?ED4Q>
M0-Z `<(PF>$5$IR9""QT,, `40AI$A3]J\;6!R[[T-6*8JW5WU<1K;;6JM7?
M*OY6K;+\7;;XH-2@/'V ^"H(F/_L<^Z],V<F83+U3M;,'18GY[GOV7O?>^;<
M/?M\NZKSV(%7#B?L=SH_Q826)GJPO/3-Y#NR5R2L-/DI)K0TT4_E[S=_^^LW
M__= HDJ3GV)"2Q.]4>[:\<#,WA\DK#3Y*2:H-!%!PR (\)Z3(6B82"D5SF^T
MNSR>9@\4H0>(@?G+N!L=\^C[E(%YRU3,<G5V;NJ$[:S/,&AM])?/:EY$>CQ%
MRAEPU;A@A(K[8(5TLD-R%U+G#[HD`-4DT)?^K^GKX#<T_3=-3]+T%$V_I>EI
MFIX)"23^7<C+ZU\BIKX35BO'4E2=O&3J0!>#=/580.N#0?'],0A9DFW"(!A@
MJY/IVPCY+?Y%E316@D$PP56>?0]=^]C.;9]S_C\8E0/O!S/\GD;EJ.[IZ\-S
M/@;T`/)5^2>W['GDFG-$>K!)D2$,@A5>]KW]PNQ7OMZ:.ZC^-M)_Q&V%)3--
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M`5SPF!DFDQX.R*)I)JW12P?=Y7I&D@?05X4DCQ6O"DD>%ET5DCP"N"HD>;!K
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MCY<JD+\I`^&EGI9 3>4OZZ41Q/K#2Q5H/N7<>*D\:<;+!%A/\5)-'%ZJ2/<Z
MICC:Q\W]?K>K78M['=,0V,>'AANFDP)-Z*1 4SHIU(1."C6E$[LF=&+7E$Z*
M-*&3(DWII%@3.BG6E$Y*-*&3$DWII%03.BG5E$[*-*&3,DWI)'[V\:'42?SM
MXT/##7O++U?L&<P^GD-RE7"B84+SVK5=@6ZQ@G+*[ !5<$JIKY3JJD/JJJ2Z
M&KC7+==52W6U,(.A@2KV<E._]G)3V+'F`8R(61%&1(,4ICG2+FD*.]NK"DG^
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M:8OPIT*&AZ]GX/=Z>K0DA<+]"13 R$RVQ*Y)P5ER`$8&W-]GXA-_%G2]\E!<
M]Q# *'QH!("1`1<90H M&N$D+' !(5&M3!Z_V>="B7QUPG5.6L8Y6$&:IZ6?
M_G0A`(8ZLO[Y(R@OA$IY<HPV6?DR$"]Q0/ILUOU?@4FN1F$?YIQ#<HC;Q' 5
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M`4MYI)0#5E<H> $[$XA?#Q:RH5_F9/,<@6,654R9LJ@2.FK8/'.APN-WDSHW
M&D%&D)H\>-'E]S8W.CRB8XG+XVOQN*09YL-^M[_%`>A=T4/*(^%KG_.\317W
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MQ,TL2=7PFDNV7UC@&E)3`_\38HVX%+S]1CMBMHS&J?/+1#*%UO8UHM<CMK5W
M;.[N$C=N[NH66S=L$%<%Q,M:-[2M$3=UBN5B6Y>X+M >Z&SM#JS!W_8S>N3H
MS*$&D1LCIM %*P8(N11J'E%]*DP^M6BC"PD?;!&FP7)7N%UE.GQ=>N0/K[WZ
MC>Z :L^(A5HQK9A:=/I5D*Y?$W)/J%O+GA&>"W6?D:'DANED!N'F5*7I6,_?
M#B:Q3G@NDETGYQ%NMN5,/O;<Y8>26"<\%\FNDSK"S3,M;EO#;Y-9)SP7R:Z3
MF82;G_RYSK5Q6S+KA.<BV74RBW!SWX]K`[MKDEDG/!?)KI/9A)MW?G9BUKY3
MR;SOXKE(=IW4$VY6/W_S\D]W?9C$.N&Y2':=S"'<_.6!&W+7C=V?Q#KAN4AV
MG:#G_2CKHCU[=_4FL4YX+I)7)V@7L0I9%' DA^0,4.SQ>Y=[?:[%HF_Y$A=T
MHF^'53#"]=Z\&X_7ZN#D-;)OAPBF]*5+F6_'<3C=QU+T[0CO+_MVB"@?'*/X
M=@3'54$F'7>MUTXZ6*"4E$S0,HQ9KW+F`.3",.D>$9A#(9J'UL,P_4:INYET
MW_T&?C"BL=0]1>K^741W"^G^TM=%%_Y\UWO![H+4_6Q$=ROI_N7/O-V3;C\>
M[)XJ=3\3T=U&NJ]_XN.N)X>?#'9/D[J?CNB>3;I?_9-G+M6?^C38/5WJ_FU(
M=Z:Q'"F IE48#C?1XR2SQ'+2J8348*"#`X'RS.G5*(811*[X<.7J#*EZ2NUD
M'PMVC,%"K4(N7%2Z['[#S'UWOEG/P-8H5H] [Y=>=K4\"JZ#5\L'G=ON\+@<
MT&O'HRM6820<]#&'T(TA1U?0XXB-E?V,K(J?D56![;%*L#U(IS_8'N;#SP3$
M>PM)`@(JH%,2A@XS%3+"#$,'ISR1BS"ZB]1,`F-1?$R[MGY-F6K5'M>7S_E*
M7S,'EZ!P+N)AVAT:;IA."C2ADP)-Z:10$SHIU)1.[)K0B5U3.BG2A$Z*-*63
M8DWHI%A3.BG1A$Y*-*634DWHI%13.BG3A$[*-*63R?!H:?+KA.<B>77"WO'+
M%=-"!2QSLURE%!_/*E3!JTYFU*K&:+F<:<$"5:2^!EZ63 IH`!J'>, @EVT(
M(2 79-!>DZXN8I@=QJ,0@P,E[QRE(HCYR^95JYANID58)A"!I_ABWY/G"VK_
ML&/KUQBH=BV[RW@NXF$<'1INF$X0PNB&O;^;47G@8!+KA.<BV76"&%#/WG5!
MSYX;#R6Q3G@NDETG"**U*N63)U;M2&:=\%PDNTX0A>Q]W85_3;\[F77"<Y'L
M.D$8MS]<_>2#!4W)K!.>BV37">+@/6)(6VS.2N;O>)Z+9-<)`@E^(GQ^X>R=
M'R:Q3G@NDETGB,0XU?6;K*??[4UBG?!<)+M.T!7EO]/6SGIG;3+KA.<B>76"
M[_@V(0NVN%C.0'(6F$=R1G!-ZOB5[!)3!6,`_1=TZ0WSF++2?4M)1@`R\[JZ
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M`_YWD@$_?%BX`5]>#<(,^#B<K5L4P=+K`;823.MW)4#DRK;"0NN_4LZ!8VBA
M^X<0=U^2LAIE7T'K&4E$KGSDY,37[]U[4"V2B%RY?-.7]V_YT2&U2")R9<G8
M/Q8).U0CB<B5PS\^[;KZ5ZJ11.3*E-*;ZS+<JI%$Y$K+]!U?>--44P\B5V;/
MO2)]XA,?JD42D2M7!CY=\P4%:%>%)")7;M9?U/'CZU4@B4]X-MFGO.MAN9$D
M]SIY.(6_D23U#5+GO:)K915,PLWW6S != )I#,;AA+LVP]:9!Z9=G2J0/1/S
M'T:79-@#6%RN>Y?\'0:/7_<^'96SGS:^(S7N9975NE3<W/:L2 &XD/S?!IV4
MD@,G0M(4F@KDWUPR$/-I-$VGZ3":9M!43]-,FF;1U$!3(RDYR.X14S--+32U
MTM0FU4_"?1.\56]W.AJ=$DZF5W0W>T3)0W^B6(6@FD6DGP#G.^U><;GH%7VB
M2UPLDL\%HD/TB M(.E=L))5>NM6"U%0*LCF:Y-*@U>F7@3/%)9YFS"YP25&W
M(34=UCL13A-2AR$<I^^*#ES@]I-R!IQ=ONPY^15D-^Q@[OVZ=# -IZ<"UM)W
M$?*'%$S#R5^?]+?)0=YO!)'HL3NP4422B$NP>E/[98'.[L :L7N3N+FC(]"Y
MNK4K4":VK17;NK'#J@VM[9>6B6O6E75?CF@&EU\N-01P[27CVMK%[O4!<75@
MPP9Q$\EU7M[6%1 [.MO:N\5 9R<9LC'0U=6Z+H"J' 'G3DVZXQ%,[H6GY%,,
ME$WE*$/_K(Y*U:T=E8;L2@#T"<XR'L! ED\MQP,89EK2PPD=;M'-4$U*6>P>
M:R8W$]Y8Y.,F&2>YX9I)T8L57K&%W'N+:?MR^2XRP$DGRQD!&EC.!!D-^ 4*
MJ6:P-O@7;VI'.&B AW^-<!.0:H'6A79OH /@,@ET%E*MT+;0WKRZ&X"-M&&Y
M:=-ET-M'-A;S>EBO;*QM"*R&#$8I!\L+6]LAPY2!(TVD;CC6N0.K(#"NA]6,
MP)K%K9V065_-Z.1BC:.C4QZ3QWI<`<I\\BGES>T!B<^1L,3'<J-AJ\3G&/*L
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M1I@2MMQ)X,0*;;(`XNI&SW*Q3?*YKL&XU,/G.I:3X\OKR/KP*M6TCJP/XQO\
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MWVGJG6(]?H9_2N'_1E.?)];C-W7UGI;+AH\]J:EW`9L=\Z"P0#*8<61%E?A5
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MG4U$?WVDS;UR7COTLM]5^/L2\KN5O5FJ0[Y9`M.5OD/*<%^"\H;\(WY)BY$R
M&-1 J6524\NLII9$.EXA'4?^G8A!`OBCCH#H,9G19%NY&QPF6PW8;.V4(N4R
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M>SW-LM?3S*);>@=6]P^6`.,,]7INW3PXB.$MU.MIIE[/'.^,_>T?JWWDJ:+7
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MCYL-Q>-F0_+X?.T%.#\\/M][`<9ZU"PB?2&I<SNA!VUBO+PS@)=W!O"\`/O%
M.PO<2_<(\'P2GFG1<OGFK3LP*ZL#KB5E<O@]_1N$AH \9'DL\CYLS#THVP'R
MZEB ,@;/JZ_APNR5-G;NMB!4KH;%(9.718>0O D@3]X%$ MBN(^"E_/EG@5&
M46D'`"_O`.#%'0#8FNX`\&W;MI5FM^19_'_+FD',)(_1[3SO@)(0V2U3J"T5
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MP2?!=<!F`K=*\RI=#JTA\#PF`SK6E!94=E0N.]I$NJZKTRH%TGM[5U!GF^'B
M,(,XUH0'FLE=ABP_JBH_2LI1;Z:O\D"M1'J#XYNZ&E9[U6]P]L5 ?>RJ?'M?
MD3+T.C<LVY3^Q@_?(UQZ!U: /I^6'/F7_$BB/_!K2_/E4QGR>VBL2QD%T">[
M>6[?S@<.G#(H!=!CF?.+1W_]C/]]@U(`_7FF(\>O<=UO5 J@MVOH^+79LV\T
M*@7H:>E/O_7FHS:C4@`]);<??/8!E]NH*R'Z$3[MN>9VUQ?O&I0":&7_R9N_
M^=?LX7<,2@&T07_PQ!_<<P\9CP*H]0NR!5J@%NA4R"9W]!0Z.5,TGD('/K2(
M"KP%SWKJ_OI >_]&JF<*[!RZE<YYSG98"2D.^"$IL\*PZMRB6V&QRAA,+?Q9
M?%!!%COF6%9^TY4?)YK$8Y.X"74L@#70!&P)<Q5&N+=SAX)0O0\NT5BNPR*K
M'*T<#F'9C$U/7Y8B;_5 G'%+.LM#D&W:@FS3%D2;-O*'VK07#6S;T;\.V#E.
M`K-K^]9OV+)VB-JUA3!G>=C$4XN$,&=Y*/7I$>HS(M1G1JC/BE"?':$^)T)]
M;H3Z26'K&;TEN[8@V[4%V:XM4+LVNYL!)]H<4$/NM-EI9N-1N=1RW(?&9#3R
MVGC%G/V5?$JOG6L)>KB$'9@K6H+[F)%8#4(Y,)=='3"?`%$,SG,)D)EX3BBS
M::>"#>W(-O:0UH!LYYJ"'IU#D%?9JLGC:)<F`*1^M2 8)5CV&Y10=?8;*,/=
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M"S06L&3=NJMN>6LL(V"J0OJBQ[J440!C`;]H/W' ]LE?#4H!C 6\:Y+WN_ZS
M1J4`Q@+666Y]ZKY31J4`Q@(V']YUL/;O1J6 -B^$$2F L8 ;CUY4_]1>H\H`
MQ@(V]??^QV-OG3(H!3 6,/^9FQ=?][7W#$H!C 5\X?/M-Z6_]Z[A*(#ZHD6.
M!;3(N]$MO `'6G&?B86WX![TGO7;5P^L'L(#T5"SM+"=Z9?0^#^B6=Y'2JR:
M#3$W@2?ZZ#\!OSQ'$?>7%.8JC'!OYWX:A.1=T#/:N+]@5*.+^(L%9<8)*>+/
M(D?\6>2(/XL<\6=A$7\]V]>OW;%E]0"P,G7$WUF:7]02$/.72Z!P7 J70C-W
M9IZ@T6TG\.2\S!.LO38&,'+[]%&VSQAE^\Q1ML\:9?OL4;;/&67[7+A[R6C:
M3X)7>Z-KSR1"BDFTR#&)%AJ3R.;M='B[S=_;LK#3`^),G@$=;?Z5K14EU2!*
MC1-+NKW>'D]O#XA2F >E7K8>N*#,XR\;' )XHO#&_MUMK'0F?FEV] ^MQZ0)
M0^L)G&Y2.@NVJG2L.HPUY+AD'O]/P<L$&QG&%_3SU2RF]L7KE[2$E0MR.0,Y
M6W^0^?J#=.L/LD!_D(7Z@RS2'^0<_4$6ZP^R!#Q+= /)YERI/'_1<L9F:SGL
M\;KE^8LSKP+V>=TK6\O*2LHJ`<[FL=)*+)7FL'M(G,55L-_+YGBU.(N=*^>U
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MAL'U0\XR^CY/(IK]&;FL7,SPE$2T>Z6T`G;>R9[/@QJO5%HISBH7U- <4;#B
MHZ9/4MC3H?3\)*+G#[N5W2AA%LXO@Y2?KU3#U>I3243/'W8KVP]T`9F/OB\Y
MWEP7D&X"4@DPU@5D`0&I1)3J`K*0@%1""'4!641 *C%CNH"<0T J04*Z@"PF
M()6H$%U EA =00D#.$>0;!:7RO.9Z?FH#Y1KYC,^QN9DA69.L[)*S8QF955P
M7]!\KA;GLZ+S)X74^9,",L:$&20?I @)XK$ZP;I54D *%EU :G.:Z )2FR1$
M%Y#:K!NZ@-2FL= %I#8OA"X@M8D6= &IS5R@"TAM*H!S!(FSV"KK_%91YY],
M[NC>^IZEGM;EG2T^JOA[6GN[?52CM;+]]2V#VXGR+Y;0_?4^M+BCYK^3E"A;
MUC.;`=81O5R5]U4`#NZ\`__>;DI%-P2F694S3:5S0C)D9/&J[P`;U<+9-45U
M'WBU<_\2U/<`M <F>A50Z8\&@^ OA&@Q8125OA:L\M>"5?Y:L+*OA9YN0F*H
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MN7%<F+UB,9#)BOO>62Y4P0PI;.9*)\8YP$>>G &_DJP&3P`T0KZR^WT"!O E
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M)/S=*47OKB,E5GDAP+^EFK@"%@6+H;ID*<A0&?54]L3DH#.9`J]V;B"H'W] 
M= 'K28JV#>PMV'88N5=&";0:ID(NN4N!!SW^GAZOL[6E$VVQO1W=72"VF@";
M1'I-A+3E_L5E-.IB*OEMAQV^D^M+DQ=4GE;E@;2"]02>[F7C4^$.GW\ET A;
M&T;8^GYM.OGN<]SES5+$Y@1N`CVQ8+(3N8:VN#3(WLW:I\'QI5</#,U[P9<1
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MUN([?NC<`B5=KQ6<67-D8'S068OO>* S?GDFR_;I9)X7<Q<D\P(<HU^CR6*.
MB>TT^M5!?M/L$CY,6]"_%K[C@)6D#"W'4H I0!O&LBD[WZ0*C@PI@VY+4]FF
M4U2QI8%7.[<A"+:/G4BKWO,F5:)56NXAV!X]4D]LS%+\:C*?`IN6H0TOF9\`
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M0A.Z@2'RZ$X$1*-@`F0$9"",J)^*.^/K<\:9_69%<5U===1AP<$=WZL[*.J(
MKQU=9_"U*C" X /%)PB8K5-U'UW="4GK[7Q]"S\K=:NKSJUS_KZWZYY[ZC_1
MN7.45^[;2[NZ5M=BWM%<:23W!J%JT/92W"VR@WPR"IP!_<W*'V$*I$Q,30G:
M+,C0UL)V-K"UKIUR'X.MB*Q4_1HCLM&M+LM+25H\RG9/_1#*:$Z7^)5[_VC#
M,"D6`I-BH3 I$0*3$J$P\0N!B5\H3 )"8!(0"I-2(3 I%0J3,B$P*1,*DZ 0
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MNN:[.[+6C[BI8 KF<98@:R[Y-GD`OB&=NKK8=T_EW+=+I\-KRO>Q4&L;0;ZC
M&,MBEV38$V[50UW"F"7+`S/))V? O54ZS5$M#%/\DDBKD0N4Q">+'+0DI8X^
M"1]VQ;L'YR<):P1_G'N0<6?D@D;=0\5VFS.:%\UT*:*>*@^IC8SS5+&('+LT
MBLMV9J1WU=&M-]'H5O2N)FJ1#N]J_VC#,"D6`I-BH3 I$0*3$J$P\0N!B5\H
M3 )"8!(0"I-2(3 I%0J3,B$P*1,*DZ 0F 2%PJ1<"$S*A<)D-)P7-#\FO!;F
MQ80]Y5=HO@LU(L>N1.0,)K5JW'_,>3$\4$/:M2B;IZ-*E W-^Y$]"[+=0'-_
M%-EY'X/+,C%I7 "&ZQE#R-C3LO71B3X*#Z#OL18^C6,-1=^CDL=$/[FDG)VU
M383L0F!I1^R*0Z6KB_=]Q,^Q,^D<%RC>8B6K"3]529LK>EK89Q/Q,^V<<=Z6
MGL^+N[/L4AV4LJQL&JL:^EYHE)"V)\H#=Y(VC+MY]JD7-I5LQ7B0&Z&:??]^
MD..=<SS7=.N.3JW59;D_:8J_@WK](OG!OG;#I\JLB=$UJYZ[Z)4/AA_(5&OR
M4\QH:V(,S>??.G=^,C=CK<E/,:.MB9$RG5GW'OS?\S+6FOP4,]J:& ^3__T?
M=NU:F+'6Y*>8T=;$J)>R+;==\6E]QEJ3GV)&6Q-C6ZK7'-[WPH<9^YO.3S&C
MK8D1+,]^,_K608LRUIK\%#/:FC1.Y<;O_NVOS^W+5&OR4\QH:V(TRNV;[YVX
M^V<9:TU^BAEJ363/<$A6>+N1L6>XR)$$\YK\X6AT3A0"& 'B8/$RD:;0=/H\
MY6#1,I63PFO67+P&-K$^`V!Q4VO%I#FS2(_'R/% N&*$_@1X#RQ2=G8HX4+&
M_,&0!*!(`GWH_YH^#GY#RV]I>926QVCY'2V/T_)$7 KQ[^,>7K<G37T+7*AM
M2S%T\HJK`T,,<HQ3`;T/#BWVQR'9%=^$0W+ ]8T,;R<,:VF=547S<3@D%UP1
M?>_^J[=MV<C'_V ^#OP^N.$_:3Z.F@U=7;C/QX$10,W5K:-;=FV]ZA0Y'GQ*
M3@B'Y(7GF]]X>O(+7U^?UZ?^/M)_Z,TE91-=70U]Z3^(]']RWY[\_*U?]:G_
M8-(_\$;>GUNV]*W_$-+_UX':0>T%Q_K4?RCIOWK%'7]=L^I$G_KGD?Z5USQS
M8.[-`_IDGWS2?_9_U#Q[S[Q@G_H/(_W[AA?[IA3 SF96PT@==GV?#J_',>4X
MI$(X&&:U$;!@&JO)-*9L.:GI(36CR!F;H4[W4I+[FS<[E\81>;&PQ2??4NOD
MH+Z^7L\>1_?!*667UN*R_%/2N5;!W$1?(IZ1U'.5D#HO^J#(>?4\7"PS%_;5
M&IC/2?,\G6H63/<BD,/H@W(DY=?%-$6.A"B9'M(4L=/D)IV&M3NT=B:RV'B1
M)<:+]!LO,F"\R%+C1989+S)HO,ARXT7RSOT?*9)=717:KYCJ87=0#SNK5=/[
MCDQJ-?!>E;YS%3]%5[C-JOJ_QY$^M;!?N5^,(7U&XO34/-XV]#@K:3)Y5[/+
MTI T- C#^&3=>$M!`>H]@Q?!YJKN774D[%V]D[2@P[?@_:W/'(\:O*JM[7;Y
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MEYXN'7!?Y^QE];\[\M./TJ #+SU=.N NTV5/_GO.`SG[TJ #+SU=.N">U_/;
M9APXD9T.'7CIZ=(!=^"VVX]E#U_^81ITX*6G2P?<#]SV?^,?>[3Q4!ITX*6G
M2P?<G?S]XZ\\]?CWGZ9!!UYZNG3 O=(/;RTM3L_O`R\]73K@SNV^_<;9DJ3;
M>I!NTW3@I?<]GT-?S\)^_3$K/*NI>\6=VEYQIU0(1\-L-3 "9DYK;0K/GMX\
M8^R,,*X*H&D#?4OME.0X)D29,B$ZX]X5)3 4*GD:3N >;EHB0V%B_Y[S-.CC
MW%! QA7!(3*OL3,2$C70'!).]H9(BT?&/>T[2&LZ=H,[J1_=I<2LEY)5UA@M
MDMWH5HSL=Z9U-WA_:L,P*18"DV*A,"D1`I,2H3#Q"X&)7RA,`D)@$A *DU(A
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M-_\CA5&8J_O@K;NNJ4EI%&;'?F;3L#?'YGV8PBC,1[UX\<G03.E0"J,P`_1/
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M4?CZ+'L`D(5Y]BQ\5<C8\&V,^MY&MY9D4;(_*Z4O<I,E<7B4_I/)T1<Y<'V?
MBU?\2;#L5H?B?0_IBQ*')M$7.? F0P2PFT:B" ^<3434:)/'7_:I4*:>G6@]
M.'O@*51!F<>55W^6./I""[G_M29)_@E4J9-CLLF=;R"R)?8HG\VZ^S,PR]5J
MZB.^/5H.69L8JZ)N.7YHKY;C1;#;:QV$PJVARSI6KNM<CA^QUG'=WG3'DY^_
M7@-XG,HJK9:NQFKI+19;G,HJ36UG(B<0D;T&\*0F\DPBLM<`GM1$UA.1O0;P
MI"9R(A'9:P!/:B(G$9&]!O"D)G(R$=EK`$]J(AN(R%X#>%(3.86([#6 )S61
M(=@_IM<`GKZ*Q&O*0QY(-H=;&^?,CC6'9F,@'3Y^>,C#R;R8OW%.--HT9@QL
MQ+ \#WE,L4PC;>%(9 PE#/"0AY2.QM;I``V[V;$;CZ.@$ IXR ,).0ZQXUQR
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MI"U]`3->Q:U7`=FV6LW99W0K.C\]_1 PTS_:,$R*A<"D6"A,2H3 I$0H3/Q"
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M&"VV0Q]7#;ETW-4Q/^G@@2 Y<D'+`.:]&CP%( \&*-\1*PLG1/?0<AA@6ZET
M=Y/NK[Z"_S";L=(]2^G^?5)W#^G^[->!<W^SXVV]NU7I?C*INY=T__*F6.>H
M6S[3NTM*]Q-)W7VD^_*'/EK[R)"C>O=LI?OQI.Z#2/<K?_7$1;9CG^C=<Y3N
MW\5U9X@-5I)G>J4A< /=3#))KB"=RD@+)CG8UUZ1.[X&S3"4V!4OKCR+0[)1
M:4>[6*)C3!3JE?(X#R%*ITP]5OI]V<W.ED^I=?!LP\ 2\8>BX1#L]N/&%:]4
M`/N;DS>N8,01&ZO&&7FU.".O1MKC54A["DBM.](>E,C,P\<**>8!:IYC"G\.
M<Q0RL8P_!R<\DLLMNH.TC )G(#V.75^WCDRC6C^S54SYRE8[!6] B5JDP[';
M/]HP3(J%P*18*$Q*A,"D1"A,_$)@XA<*DX 0F 2$PJ14"$Q*A<*D3 A,RH3"
M)"@$)D&A,"D7`I-RH3 9#0\$S8\)KX5Y,6'/^!6:8Z$2%D18K4K)C.>5JF%G
M(W-IU6">7,ZQX(%JTEX+SRLN!73_C$ N8%"/?4@?H!ZHA+TN2WW2,#^<@4;4
M!RJQ.5J#SO?+YE6G.6[&)7DFD'VG](+F1^99C7ZMX^O6%6AT*_N6\5JDPS7:
M/]HP3)"^Z-IW_SBA:M]^$V/":V%V3)#_Z<G;S]ZPZ[H#)L:$U\+LF""!UI*L
MCQ]:LMG,F/!:F!T39"![QW+N7W+N,#,FO!9FQP0IW/YTY2/W%<\V,R:\%F;'
M!#GPMCJRSW+;S?P;SVMA=DR01/!CZ^?G3MZRU\28\%J8'1-D81P;OM/^^%N[
M38P)KX79,<% E+NSETYZ<ZF9,>&U,"\F^(SOD^RP/LQJ#E+SP'12<T)X5.&G
M:D!,-9P.&+]@R9DVG8&5TSR?5*Q 9EY?O\2JQWO0J JBP&$:6].2)"H$06(L
M79AJ,2I084DD0AD%8D^"J\G,47!HE'_^_-DS:="%3W+!-7E+Z;\##;V&W_@D
M-^E>3?]]V7OXC4_RD.['W(<>VV;]H/?P&Y_D)=TOJ]LR>?ZB/H3?^"0?Z=Y6
M_\&<7]]RLO?P&Y\TB'2///KER;^M_ZKW\!N?-!A^&T,OCD\:HG"Y3I(GT/ ;
MGS043OK?N__J;5LV?MY+^,UYI'<>W!O4PV=FDN^%)=NFJ(9</VK=0@XD!XVL
M.=*%H!U1&'TDRO.3>(R]V%3S874$.9A\TC"PM;06,_>73RJ DW%Q.R/ J:?"
MLCA8:-;A+K64,..;I3YIF!^&)":]LCC4R"Y^.)O-<,A79G,Z_/,TOPQ*>R&\
MU<AJ(T".L)H,`4H4Z)/.@ ?B&$']<1ZW0PU>M*YR]&*#C<^NY;(T)@T?"R-Y
M`>H5HPM)3-+%YE-$+F;DU?))(^'J<")7G4\:18#O(VNB1]\ZR;$F^K1V)K+8
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M`VY?!]=/W#?N2LE*UD>,ZQN#CV$7X.%"RUOD[P!X\)?OT%&#]] /WU0^?)<U
MUE@D7,AN6)0%<"[Y?R.LH9)"@.<*D2%86LE_4\E K&?3,H>6`V@YD)8V6N;2
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MT2<;O">@.)X&A-'$%,9C?829D+'(7R=)=!"&ZR./`Y@QX-A >*^7EF^6N6@N
M?-S!4O,`/"R5"E8/?BQ!3(-TCZ]W? S#/@/\^W<QL 2(=AA>XQKP[P&X7 HN
M"V(ZC*QQ]6V;`F!O9N#SNO'+X<09(D2LGF:U,C'7X]\&5@8I"Y_7#(^!-=4*
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MT'[9R6./:\J=P&;'"B@MD95C`EE197I5<8I4\U0-3]7R5!VE%]*F7D4O1L&5
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M@,F,1NW::;";; U@LW51C%1S/,4G-U7X:]!H_P1#`;XS.HR9B($7SJ@9C1L,
M1>,&0]*XT5 T;C0DC9L,1>,F0]*XV5 T;C8DC5L,1>,60]*XU5 T;C4DC=V&
MHK';D#1N,Q2-VPQ)8SQ18QP::T?[_Y_&J$LS<ZNCF5L=S9+5T4Y2W+=D9&PG
MK$:=FIG9'0='1J=(C4/DV0J[>RC:IC>V`>Q'OT?%XCA$4#B$5L$*R,A&;*9A
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M2W!8> [38BK!89%SF;Z_DML[Y'L0S'@ZM(/9`&J"[!VULOTBC!U"I/8$D=LA
MM/7#VR&4]U@[=1':2:+UDW@[=5&VH[S'QLIN5$"[FOI&A5)Z%L!\WLX"U(2T
MW)Z[7+2#F\_[68!XCYK1N,%0-&XP)(T;#47C1D/2N,E0-&XR)(V;#47C9D/2
MN,50-&XQ)(U;#47C5D/2V&TH&KL-2>,V0]&XS9 T/E]G`<X/C<_W68!XCYIY
MI%]$REP.&$"=F(6?#+#PDP$6TO_#4BH)[J1G!"QB,MY>T7[5R.Z]&)/5#M>3
M/.Y^3_\FH24@"ED1\[P/ZW,/RG& HB;FH(S.\^K?<&[V2IU4X;:@KGP=UH8,
M719=A_@A@")^"B"6CN$Y"@N/EGL&&$;E$P`6?@+ PJ.>6=@)@/[Q\=TTMJ6%
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M!M">9WKT^'7.NXR*`;1V31V_/F?I34;%`+T7_<G77WO09E0,H*7DV_?_YFZG
MRZ@K(=H1/AZX[MO.S]\R* 90R_[CUY[^YYR3;QH4`ZB#/OW8'US+'S >!E#J
M%[D&6J0:Z#3(`9'=0<<C1>,==-"/&E&1C&J$E%P^T36VD\J9(KN%;I-CA:,+
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MJ)<F`.1VM2 8)ECT&^10=?0;J,+3&"+5,Q^OF5S9*L;_-(9(3Q6((4\*G$6N
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MP,^[3MQC^^A=@V(`?0'OR._\EN^,43& OH!-2;<^<>2443& OH!MC^R_O_%_
MC8H!;5P((V(`?0%W'EW3_,1!H_(`^@*ZQP;_[:'73QD4`^@+6/SK;ZZ]X2MO
M&Q0#Z OX[&=[;LYX^RW#80#EQ23N"YC$3Z,GD8'<TX'G3)+(*(YT^ ;\>X8G
MAJ?P0C24+)/8R?3-U/^/2)9'2(Y5<R#F9O!&[_TGXLYS%GY_R6%^Y=+C`369
MW]]/@CIY!PS,UN\ON*O1>?S%TF5&"=GC+XE[_"5QC[\D[O&7Q#S^!O;XM^T=
M'9X`EJ?V^#M#XXLF!?C\Y1$H@I BI-#(G5DGJ'?;";PY+^L$JZ_U`8Q</V.6
M]3-G63]KEO6S9UD_9Y;U<V=9/P^^VSN;^OGP\F!T]1E'R#Z)2=PG,8GZ)+)Y
M6P!O>'R#[1?U>$&:R870[?%MZJBIJ >):QR8T]?9.> =' ")"XN@LI.M!TZH
M\OJJ)J<`'BN]:6S:PW(7XTZS>VS*CT$3IOP$3A_)70*[53)6$_H:"L(<"_Z?
M@C]S;608G]/MJUD*[8N_7] <EB_R? 9RJ?X@B_4'Z=(?9(G^($OU!UFF/\AE
M^H,LUQ]D!7A[=0/)YEPEG[^H.6.SM1H.=+KX_,695P.'.EV;.JJJ*JIJ`<X4
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M].Q3NN9^IEI_O^ G)60;`,))A[M=RLW.L</)('"4&Z!CAY-)X"@W1<<.)XO 
M46Z4CAU.-H&CW#P=.YP<`D>YH3IV.+D$CG*3=>QP\@@<Y<;KV.'D$SC*S=BQ
MP&%S0I;KD[E<GRS)]3@#"N ]C[-OQXY)_Y2CBG[/DXED_PG/JY8B/"43Z5[)
MK8%]WV'O%T%#IYQ;*\TJ)S30&%&P\0/W1RGL[5!R?C*1\T^ZE-,H81;.+X*$
MGR]5P]7*4\E$SC_I4HX?Z *R&&U?W-]<%Y N`E)Q,-8%9 D!J7B4Z@*RE(!4
M7 AU`5E&0"H^8[J 7$9 *DY"NH L)R 5KQ!=0%80&4%Q`SA+D&P65_+YS.1\
ME >J-?,97V-SLD8SIUE>K69&L[PZ.!(TG^NE^:S(_,DA9?[D@(@Q809I"1*$
M1.E:G6#9*CD@!(LN(+4Q370!J0T2H@M(;=0-74!JPUCH`E(;%T(7D-I "[J 
MU$8NT 6D-A3 68+$66SE,K]5DOGGDQ0]6S^PWMNQH:>]GPK^WH[!OGXJT5K9
M^?KVR3U$^)=RZ/GZ?M2XH^2_C^0H1]:SV@"V$[E<%?=5! &^<SO^O>%.0S,$
MAEGED:8R!'$.9&9;5/L`&Y7"V6^**AWXFRK\4U#;$] 5&.A51*$_FAX$[Q"B
M[0G#J+Q;L/+=@I7O%JQLMS#01U ,#=]TX0[*2G8+[1[?18,;V(IG97N%WG''
M/L= )VK;[;"$Y-KA[J:+JQNR;SOY0AMBW()2&L882\X'69K#>NDPS]FTN^3Y
MR4O^'%!OOJ9>!JGWE[=NV/)$_4L!]19HZF62>N^4_.3M"=N+`?46:NIED7JO
M=UQ=\\3Q0'B+-/6R23UGW^DW?O!0(+P"3;T<4N_GZS_NO69%(+Q"3;U<4N_0
M0Y8#3ZY]+J">0U,OC]1;=&CT-WLO_GU O2)-O7Q2K_/0Z;U;#CT;4,\)BK1K
MY=*NE4B[>9TLM0@.>NQ03U(%\!65&<>)T2O6`IFL>.Z=Q4(EDS"%S5SYQC@[
M]),W"^$I66OP&$ K%"NGW^>B`]^<D( "[YY3TJG"4!#43EBN/1C/("\00\(.
MOME.5/491^O@T*,;K<A'6Z1Y<_:C%57]$?EHM5!C'VT@=#:'G=#N]75VKVOO
M<<#E5I2&K$&[CB12<P?)7P(O+U<4-OT$,X*0*@0NX$H4!+6_W)>2C,;O$M3D
MBSP_51@+:FD("G#,`HX8+7_:]M1Q%V)ID8UM:=S&MC3N8RN.V]B*XSXV5]S&
MYHK[V$KB-K:2N(^M-&YC*XW[V,KB-K:RN(]M6=S&MBSN8RN/V]C*XSZV"C@9
MI[%I6SJW8V.2:B7?`5;!KDX[7$)2U>!=HLB('5 %Z$*F./ZC=YDJQG%3BOK)
MAB*56=Y\RK\84'E+$.BUT$ &J 6^`.\<40<<GNLD(XVJ"=;[&MZ$M2WFWHO2
MUEG;>RWHL^Q]8!.L][6\"?S3`?<B[[T6M(ZX%WGOZ^ !:;=CUP?W2N^UH'7$
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M#J05K"?P=B^;F :W]_LV`?6PM:&';?^O3*^^]5OAJC;98W.N,)?>6##?@51#
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M%:0)`:HJLME1D+4%FH8P[>C8XG2[C;;V?#V*\*FT.BX(MK;MVJ((:H.V=N,X
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MO7I\VZEC&MC 2]?*!@^9Y3]O'+GI<,T!#6S@I6ME0S:9Q0?^L1LC[VI@`R]=
M*QMRR"QEX;73-H2UL(&7KI4-_<DL?[KAX:]^N7Z?!C;PTK6R80"9Y8;VZ[_Q
M;]NO@0V\=*ULR"6S_/7"LOS,FJ,:V,!+U\J&/#++0_/S[MQ\FQ;7!UZZ5C8,
M)+-H=XWCI:MO`[XUM@CY,#/J\^)=4A$Y&DS?3">L$/(V!I2 /KO>#X$_B/<+
M[$YB*#P=Q#QYBS ,=@3;`R@DZ@WC&!JCMPA>>"78SMXU@A<:S/C>TR*<!W=6
M*JMZ\G!E,KV)Q#?]+ NNWPOT+3<R("?T]Y(9!XDCI#?V4O:<-,Y)/&<1"O"]
M`;&IN34:#,^8+KYTWU[<V;FJ!BN/6H3AW#N$RNSMQ;A>9"?Y9 38_<J[E=_#
M1$B9FII2M)F0HZV-K6U@=[M6RGX,Y@)RK^J3.9'5;G687DVPXDFV?NI<2*,Y
M6V+OW7O'&H9)H2$P*304)D6&P*3(4)CX#(&)SU"8^ V!B=]0F!0;`I-B0V%2
M8@A,2@R%2:DA,"DU%"9EAL"DS%"8C(2'2_6/"6^%?C%A,8IR^?U/!92'V%XE
M[&YB;T"JP!22XA,^8-&):K /I^:ONX"/3LQET8E,:D.F')W@^\=%)^8JT0EE
M')NG1AI'_Q+GR:+]L^1Y^/[=SZ.,8]9*57DL<55YMI(6Y%M2N JU>@M9U>4;
MNM1:\2UDO+Y:OX540V_F9R2A4K@<T]_/O+[Z\3,R<RE<E^GO9UY?_?@9Z<H4
M+M#T]S.OKW[\C!QN"E=J^ON9UU<_?D9B.X5+-OW]S.NK'S\CVY_"M9O^?N;U
MU8^?D0)1X2).?S_S^NK'S\@+J7 UI[^?>7WUXV<DRU2XK-/?S[R^>O S/BM:
MR;R[F]A>EEBYQTH>WX\TML\*M+3 FPV8!V!E69.!2>(Z/ZO0%R:V(.^?-6:5
M/<8.)I"GU!BN4&)P5UF2-IJIV/768;HX06H+X_V+90&E88FSY4>>;0YF@Y0?
M:97Y/:V"#?X19'MV^"*(*Z6M@@->#RNZ2"NE^X!Y'_,-S8F,(,.G"RK),68M
M=H8WS5Y_!69T# 4/YG.(KD#:!0O-XL UWA);)8["VE=7#-O^TMRGCJ4P"BM@
M_??/2QX]//C#%$9A':R%MV_NM^?1-U(8A=6P_'?_Y8X;'TEE%-;$>F?HPK_6
M#G@[A5%8&>O1C;-NV'/5^RF,POI8^T[=OV_>(X=3&)5'1EVW<<OYIR]/!:^!
M9%1J*!>04?FP-GK/LHS+AMV</Q$K.6=!Q@SR;7(!?$TZ=7:R[Y[$NF\5AL >
M\?LX5&X;1KZCF,MB%;SP8;!=274)8ITL%S233\Z#^RH5HJ,:&"C&)9%8PP*4
MQB>#'+0E%(\^`Q]WQH8'9R4(:P1?3'B0L6=80";OH6*[K!K-BV:V%-!(E8OL
M#8^)5+&,'*LP@JMWIF9TU=9E-%'M5HRNQENA172U=ZQAF!0:`I-"0V%29 A,
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MRX1:`I/I\Y2-9<M4U =7K_[I:MC ^O2%^2WMY?73IY(>3Y'C?G#E,.4)\%Z8
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M1^GJ35[%M/8F!GR=A9=FW+-^?[IZDU<QK;V)`=_=CZ_-W5R5MM[D54Q3;^)S
MDIVN6<1HI5VJZ; !JSG8NZSF,(Y&KNUB-8=*;[U8B]$>5\_!3M<N7EZ[9<*L
M>3UQ7=MHMI>'LE![* NUU.*F+1ZZS1;;D>LZ7GHR7->IS<)LP)64@V^HW541
MT<(&7KI6-N"ZSM8E=;\]_I.C&MC 2]?*!EQENN39W_5YN,\!#6S@I6ME`ZYY
MO6CAE$.G!2ULX*5K90.NP%UD/2D,7OJQ!C;PTK6R`=<#+_SGV*>>;#RB@0V\
M=*ULP-7)WS_]VK:GO_],`QMXZ5K9@&NE']]:7*C-]8&7KI4-N'([N6N<.4&Z
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MQ_4GXY2J8\F/&T#&*77'DA^72\8IE<>2'Y='QBFUQY(?-Y",2Q7W`C(N'Z[L
ML?Z84XZH.^6(NE,8"OU";$_B,W**?$87D3TEZ(U7X*G2VCX:X<\`-ZZ3$[_#
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M3VHB`W!P5(\)/,F*Q-^4BSR0; ZV-TYOC40#K9A(AX\?+O)P,C/B:YP>#K>,
M&@6W85J>BSRFF)I(6S 4&D4)`USD(6598_MD@(9][-B)QV$0"05<Y(&$' ?8
ML84<N_%X$K2R3SUXU*A\FHW'37B41XYRP!V,I2Y@:P+Q\N B-_2S&YE.`W#,
MU(I1HZ96`FO)A8IP>XBTA+!E`&G)@QW!]LCTED#8&Y@1#$?;PD%1OX'P8:B]
M+0"86[&.'.?#B:ARRE].;JXE)ELO\N>R>KDL?H25H$UR9,QF)J[/PNK!-CRG
M?0''.J7M<67?!68!,LU]B>S_ZZ+58;H^08<.&!_#I^ME1+A2F=T>-&'GUW/3
MA?E9NO5WR;?^+G+Y<(6<Y''4Q9:31F8$&]O0M>%@J"782+Y$C4'Q.Y2XI-1%
M[]LW;L"_(PU=+2FU4%I?W.*2TOC^W2\I5<;ADE(76U(:"<>M*,T4-1L>5^)F
M)VG3+F'&+8;URD$PU\C!/K5;,?CIZH6$F=ZQAF%2: A,"@V%29$A,"DR%"8^
M0V#B,Q0F?D-@XC<4)L6&P*384)B4& *3$D-A4FH(3$H-A4F9(3 I,Q0FVB7,
M]"8FVB?,](XU[,F_'.-9$3$H(44EIH<!4V=<0@4$0NW1<* U,JTY$E$B2I4P
M)<3VJF!&B$62JN&5H!2_<,%5I*4&GHN)1EP*D2XK';%81LOH*65>HL+\E0N]
MD;!WV<I5:SO6>%>L7=/AG;]\N7?!(N^_S%^^;*'WIZN]Y=YE:[Q+%JU<M'I^
MQZ*%^&:_WSJI,G-L0.2Z!!76P+QNRBW%AD=45X7YIQ8C=#&E@UW"&)@3C(^K
MC(43I8<?>V7WUZ8#JOU&7#2&Z<:MRV1>`'W,"V.^$^JVLM\(;X6ZOY'>M(9A
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M=.\C=O\NICM#+$<LGND6^L,-=#%)O;><="HA+5CDX,"B<LO8:G3#`.)7_''E
MFFQ99BKMVTY6Z!@+A;J%7"Y"B-(I4T\F_;[L8[/E46H=G&T@F$*^0#@8@'T^
M7+CB%O+A8#1QX0IF'+&Q4IZ16\XS<LND/6Z1M">?['5%VH,2F7OX7"'1/4#=
M<U+DSV&!0B:6\>>@PL.YVJ([2<L(L/NU">QZN@QDJM7ZN;E\XE?FFHEX`HJW
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MGAV"(R8V2 DQ53 $,'_!U*=I,@.K3Q1+"F4"T;RN;D&FDN]!LRJ(`<=H;DU;
M@J@`E!)G*<(DCU&!(DLB$<HH$+L37$4T1\&!$;Y9LUJ;:=*%1W# -;F+Z=^A
MAA[3;SR"DW2OHG]?]IQ^XQ%<I/M)YY&G'LG\H.?T&X_@)MTOK]TR8=:\)-)O
M/(*'=%]8]\'T7Z\_TW/ZC4?()MU#3WYYYG\O^ZKG]!N/D ._B6 4QR/T%[E<
MZ[WC:/J-1Q@`9WSO_3][3P,>19'EZYGI^2&03/Y(PD_2&2 3(('\`ODADY#)
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M-'IE>QNPF6!AQ)D`HU;V%!2DOF$9)8:AF^H/&F=?DK(2KE?0<H82HU;^Z+,9
MOSSX^DFC4&+4RO7]O[]_]VA1*\>&$J-6SLD]4F@];!A*C%J9^=X73=?=:QA*
MC%IIF7M+C3-@&$J,6NE>=/CC=M$P]F#4RO0E>^PS'CEA%$J,6KDA>&K+QQ^.
M&(42HU;N=%TY\+<W&(#REV0@BK\@B?T%,M;;]PQMJ(29J&B_#!X0K )85=4#
MOKL3;JI]:^%U-BO1CUBL;W0^AE<`+]<+Q\FO`Q[^^FNT5<:;%/C?,O!U5E@A
MV%"1W?<7%H KR/^[8#?%U !XKP;2!%,K^;>$-,2\2%,[31TT==+41=,)-$VB
MZ42:3B)7#413Q#2%IFZ:IM(TC:;I9.J:0J S@2"&EWW>QH:5C7)4S'8IT-HF
MR1[Y,Z1*#*%92.I9X;)&;[NT7FJ7.J0FJ44B?VNE!JE-6D;2)=)*4MA.E2NP
MVVA(S6DD)T)W8Y<2*%-:W=:*V65-\AG;8+?#]D8,GPEV!P;?[-@S@%/:F^3:
M"6?7_\M&Y:/C13C,W/D%.R1GTET`6^G7!_DA%\F9Y+=#_EW50+YHK!+AYG!P
MAX0H,0[!YOZ^JX*#P\$MTG"_M'-@(#BXN7LH6"3U;)5ZAK'"IM[NOK\JDK9L
M*QK>A=$+=NV2`4&<;4F[GCYI>'M0VASL[97Z26YP5\]04!H8[.D;EH*#@Z3)
MCN#04/>V(#(T&T9/DX4/PQ[R=7A,V;5 'Y-O78C\J%-MPM:I(CZN'&[^$G]D
MW'"!C_RG];CA(H5>N>",@$IY"E20JR0F8ZU$F%"PR%^ 9!J)P+62RW8L:)?6
M$-EKH?#UBA1-A,\:66X2@)_EDL'IQU<FV%,@U=_5TM^'P9\!_NE[&%X"[&[H
M7NYM#PX`7"6'F 5[*O0L][9N'@9@+=/P>E7_53!RCJ@22_>Q6NE8Z@]N!B?#
ME('7R[O[P)GL!!HX%NR96!8(;H)@WCY6:S*6M'0/P@1?Q:U]#%,6EC4,#"JM
MLEF=/<![E$-Q[^P+RD\Z!59WL-PTN$E^TNEDM+%<+L_E\9S$<_ET5"+5/62L
M,:IGD*L9./):6E=U-)/OVDT`-RYGO9D)-]<H%&+/, L.U##Z7 6Y\G,58!FG
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MW8,]I0L^$EA..4]>(#/$<Y33`IDA\OU=$AMQ`IDE_K6QJW6P)]A7+)>DP&Q_
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MZFCE5D>K;'5TDQSW+>GIVP9+<4W-RNR.'3V]PZ3&`7+MA!TK*=GVK:T'V(O^
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M3<GCB[47X.+P^&+O!;C03\T\TI<0F%>"=EP3L_&=`3:^,\!F%^%N.6>'^^@>
M`9O=@:=8-%S=LV,G1F5UPXVDC+O?T[\A6!P2A2R?>=Y'];D'=3M ?@US4$;G
M>6T:S<U>K9,LW!G6E>MA1<309?%UB&\"R.>[`,;3,=Q'8>/Q<L\!HZBR`\#&
M=P#8>-0S&]L!T-;?OX/&MK0Q__^&34,8.QZ]VVUV-Q1'B&V91-=2$9X*>[VC
MP=-BP--CP#-BP#-CP"?'@&?%@&?'@.=$A3-:*][_-N[];^/>_S;9^S^#Y*CW
M?\B9P!6DG/OT'VV3??JIY4%<`6(*R1(V>I)"3QBI#6M72/K*;1:D[511;1UZ
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MS/@M(Y8?U90?)>6H-]-7>:A6HKS!\4V]`+H#VC<X^V*@-G9-O+VO2!E:G1=?
MMCWMQ .G")?>@[5@S*>E0'[)A8->X->6[LNG(N+WT(4N911 FVS/O,[=AQX\
M;5(*H,4RZ]\?^\^?=WU@4@J@/<_RY+$;//>;E0)H[1H^=N/D6;>:E0+T?/1G
MWWG[,9=9*8"6DF\?>?Z0QVO6F1#M")^UW_!MSY?OFY0"N,K^SV\_]ZW))]\S
M*05P#?JCIW[MG?>H^2B 6K_(5Z!%N@*=`I-)CIY"QR-%XRETT(8KHJ+=CB<]
MM5XUV-RWC>J9(CN';ITT7VJ&=9#DA@=(F1-.:DXMN@-6:!:#Z0I_IBVL(),=
M;,R5WS3U8L0G'YHD3*QA#JRA2\#V**DX2CY9>#2LJP=AO6[E.FIGU<.4HW68
M+V/3\Y85SULC.LZXI9SD(?(U;9&O:8ORFC;RAZYI+QWLW]FW!=@I3B);UVX+
M;NW=/$S7M<4H9WFXY#.+Q"AG>:CPM!CP]!CPC!CPS!CPR3'@63'@V3'@.5'A
MC-[*NK;(U[5%OJXMTG5MELN#$;\;JDA.'YUF%AZ.2U>..W$Q&1=Y739U.?LK
M?BYOLM 0UKB8'9$KKP1WLD5B+0KUB%R6NF$A0:(N.,\C2&;@R:!L33L%7+B.
M[&*-] O(R8(OK.E<TGG-6C5ICNO2!(%R7ST*1@D6_08E5!O]!DIQ-X9(UYF/
ME0\MK!,O_&X,D>XJ$"/N%#B/4MTZ3'[$U9FQE>)NC%!*7<S=&'\N=&,2AE:#
MOW[TY-E=P0\3$C:JA.DIE9"P>"4,;4#%*<+#KV<E)&QT"=-3*B%A\4H86O06
M'?N;IV\3$Q(VNH3I*960L'@E#.VSS1O?O-::E)"PT25,3ZF$A,4K86AM3\T]
M^T32PH2$C2YA>DHE)"Q>"4/?B=-/KOB&]4A"PD:7,#VE$A(6KX2A)\P'MR0[
M;ZU+K%:,+F%Z2B4D+%X)0[^FC&/.E^Z_/R%AHTN8GE()"8M7PM!+;<?0VG\[
M_5I"PD:7,#VE$A(6NY2M^)=PRXCB<RA2GT.6*X?C?C<L(;D*^*1,,:H!S -/
M!.^]$9^0Q2UOKE"/_^5A6!; G"AN>2/H?J?!%>[_OYI@JX2S&FRU!%O$/B'[
M5;]!PM&D*(Z#76$XE\.BT7K(!$OK&HC8HWH&,IJRB#MH\=-&W$'+MTA]`8NW
M;/G:[>]<2 ^8RHBVZ M=RBB OH!?-H\\Z/KT0Y-2`'T![\T)_'W7.;-2`'T!
M:^QW/'/PM%DI@+Z ]4_L/5+]>[-20!\7PHP40%_ ;4>7USZSWZPR@+Z OKZ.
M?WS\G=,FI0#Z`A;\_)LK;KKRE$DI@+Z +W\Q<%O:J?=-1P'4%^W<%]#.=Z/;
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MM>#FX>Z^S4%V(K2#Z-FDG.H7;N@BUTZXH;J<_OT773TNTJBOH `$JJ7"BR_@
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M]/R37G4W2I2)\VR8\O.5YG'U^I2#Z/DGO>KV`T-0%J#MB_N;&X+22U"J#L:&
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M500!OG,/_KWK2T$S!(99Y9&FT@1Q`J1GVC3?`2ZJA;,T29,/39.%OPN[]R T
MAP9Z%5'ICZ<'X5\(\?:$453Y6G#RKP4G_UIPLJ^%]E9"8JCZIA>_H)SD:Z'!
MW[6D8PV;\9SL6Z&E7]HMM0=PM=T-,TFI&P[57%96E7GGR5?KD>(VU-(PQI@C
M!Q1M#NNEPB1/S8["XT.7_RZDWA1=O312[\WW;]KPS(+?A-2;JJN73NI]4/C0
MJ4'7ZR'UINGJ99!Z[S1>4_[,L5!\TW7U,DD]3^M'[_[@\5!\N;IZDTF]1U9_
MUG+=_%!\>;IZ6:3>@<=M-S^[XI60>I*N7C:I-_U [_,[+_M52+U\7;T<4B]P
MX*.=&PZ\'%+/`ZJVZ^3:KI-HN]D!EIL.^_UN6$!RN7"EQHSCP>@5*X ,5MSW
MSF*ABE9(8B-7.3'.#6VD91[\3%DU> J@#@K4W>\3T8%O0D1$H6?/J?EDH3,,
M:P#FZ3?&,\Q3Q8BXPT^V$S5]QJ>5./;XGE;D3YNO:SGVIQ7_E[MKCX^JNO._
M23*7S'N2((0`80PD,WF2MT (84AF2,H08":15SN*@H BI1!:%]<%MP]U[;KM
MNBJP6JJN502K[<?6%XKX*&BUQ?4CUOI"!00??&2+#T3-GM\Y]S%G)B$S>.]\
MYM[\<7/OF7-^Y_>8N??<[_D]8O@QR]+R5,]>VGCJ[#=<`OY --C5[0]YX(>Y
MN!K*37CK$$C/2TC[!'BS1@%LPD0S)I/3%'\#5[(@Q/K+?2.NT>1:@ER[66YW
MFE8GS+0(BE%F$TJ,.W_\?+%Y%\YF1B9;:=ID*TV[;&5IDZTL[;)YTR:;-^VR
M^=(FFR_MLI6G3;;RM,M6D3;9*M(N6V7:9*M,NVQ5:9.M*NVR5</A-,G&SZ2M
M;&RE6BN_`=;!BJ ;YI.S>@A,4-:([5 'Z$*F./ZC=UE,CN,66^R5!9=4V=++
MIW3$A,H7))">!9.)@#QQ\HJ6#;$)A^TE1-*DIF#<-\A3Y$X_:^[-XJLSSSU/
M^EMR'S\%X[Y1G@+_5-"]6>:>)ZVB[LTR]TWP!_%MQZV.[A7N>=(JZAZG8$A&
M,Z[G%T[L]$"#^ 8^$.:8*TSB[D"#`#&"",0TBN;%%WAL$40@IE$V.Y*<K#[)
M*>J3;%&?Y%3U2;:J3W*:^B3;U"<Y77V2?NZ!]"U)XG/&(F..%MF'UR*8X<EV
MQ, L@H"X&'H74'31(@S#ZY#DO;N4M.3*-P+\F\OY%3 O6'35);>"@AA0+P9/
MM";49(H_.DUK$^:)QGD7L)DD;]OXV1*QPZ%G99I U-!%KBR"#;8'HI%(T-/N
M#R$6V],UIQO$7G98(>K+`7F]T5EUU.MB#+EVPOKPH66UUDF-)V/R0.9"[D&L
M[F417+ E'%T`U,/6@AZVX3]E'?KP>=.&Z9+'IMUDIQ4+BCQH-<3B\F#$)M8_
M#UZ9>_7:OHDOA0N2ZI]/^K_1/WS1?VX\U99,_P+2?_&(\-3"4Y\DU7\XZ?_B
MYI/W7/%%<OW/(?T?,?_BODMO/9E4_Q&D?]'2&W?TS_\\J?XC2?_'-OYVYF??
MS4Y*/X6D?Z1MPS/>U65)]1]%^B=G+_8]06P2L2J+, :N"WAGAN?T=G>07R5K
M&PN_#'A%@+]&_&85P^8`.QL'G[2S?AZXG8SM.C_0#9WP+^Q[=BY<-4[QO9&^
M9]_ ^_WL=UL"78'H[-Y03U>U^$L>#_,"T;FAKD 86M!#R"),@,=C;BX87XJQ
M#++7CC4'*K87[._XVY=MT/K?O=MV5#NGFVQ6>+3+GE5Y3<YT&NI@L^10/'$8
MY$J1`_3(9BC5?(8RS6?P:CZ#3_,9RC6?H4+S&2HUGZ%*\QFJX5G-9F#/HXFL
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M`AJ6%H--VV)\2^./3M,E";3#K")M;,R;]"&BTO(,B7CTF69B,DO^JU;!!BOF
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M<#Y[WH^%WXFK!;:.*(:'`^@E;Q7&P9Y U(]$>CQA'$,1>BM9QSP7B+*=1O! 
MFP5W/:W"N7!;O1+3@^L3MH3$?7[F`Y?[)-WCQOS'"?T]9,;1X@AIOU[RG9/&
MN8CFK$()[AH0F;JZ>P+AN7/$+??=Y?W]:YJP[JA5&,_M(-07["[':)&GR"<3
MP.%3=E9^"],AY<34-$&;"3.T];+(!K;6M='<QV I(2M5KYP16>U6I^GY!"G^
MR**GSB9E-"=+[,H]/=(PFY0:PB:EAK))F2%L4F8HFW@-81.OH6SB,X1-?(:R
M2;DA;%)N*)M4&,(F%8:R2:4A;%)I*)M4&<(F58:R237<5ZE_F_!2Z-<F#*.H
ME7=_ZJ VR,[J85\'V^UI`%-0PB>\P-")1G",I^)O.I]')Q8Q="*;RI MHQ-\
M_SAT8I&"3BCCV#Q-TCCZESA/#NV?(\_#]Q]\'F4<DU:JR6.-J\FSD[1@MB4E
M4Z%6>Y -`^[/I=:*>Y#Q_&J]!ZD&WTS/F()*R>28^7KF^=6/GC$OEY+I,O/U
MS/.K'SUCLC(E$VCFZYGG5S]ZQ@QN2J;4S-<SSZ]^](QI[91,LIFO9YY?_>@9
M<_TIF78S7\\\O_K1,R9 5#(19[Z>>7[UHV?,"JED:LY\/?/\ZD?/F"I3R62=
M^7KF^=6#GO%=T29DDS=C=I8CUNVQ"68XUAZ=[P^%X.4V] .P,9])_PPQRL\F
M#(/I(<SZ9XN)L4?L8!IY2XW)%$H$'LA'TD[]% <^.DT7)E -L:Q_L3E *2QQ
M)N_(,\W!9)"\(VUR=D^;8(>_!=B9`SX)8)RT37#"BV&%%RE.6@#+0:8;ZA,9
MP?R>;J@GU^BUV!_>MN"6*]&CHQCRT9]#5 4F7;!2+PZ,\)9R5>(HK'QUY;C=
MSRQZZ'@*H[#^U?_\J.*!HV/>26$45L%:NGE[[OX'7DIA%-;"\MW^YUNOOS^5
M45@1Z^_%2__2/.*U%$9A7:P'MLZ_;O_&MU(8A=6Q#I[^S<'%]Q]-850A&77-
MUAU3OMJ0BKU&D5&I6;F$C"J"]3UWK,RZ8MP-1=.QCG,.9,TEWR8WP&>D4W\_
M^^Y).?=MPEC8+WX?B^6V<>0[BKXL-O)[>"<055Q=`E@ERPU=Y)-SX:YZ)<U1
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MG0M7C5/>`.^$Q6)DA^@NI,X_=$D`:DF@+_V?TM?!S^CQ<WK\@AY/T>.7]'B:
M'K^**2'^3<S+Z^X$UG? Q7)8BJK,BU 'NA@(ZHF Z(-=]OVQ"S81F[ +=KBV
MG=G;`:-ZH[/J:3T.N^"$J\)OWGWU_3MNYOU_L!X'?A]<\#M:CZ-Q4W\_QOG8
MT0.HIR%:W7M@Y\8SU'C(%VM"V(4\>+;GY2>G[?WTVI%)]<\G_4?<5%8QU=G?
MEDS_`M+_L4/O%!;N/)E4_^&DO^_ED4_T[DBN_SFD_[_[F@J6%9U*JO\(TG_-
MJE_]=>WJKY+J/Y+TK_OIGB-S;QJ6E'X*2?_N>QN?OG->95+]1Y'^R=F+?5.*
M8%\/.T-/'?;['@LOQ63*L0O%<#3 SL;!@@YVYJ$^92O(F>)2,X',V /-"DI)
M[F]Y9BOU(\K#@R6V^)9T3BY:6EJ4ZG$T#DX\]LLM3M._)LRU&N;&8XDX(SFW
MBBYU>8A!D7F5.ERL,A?VE1L8YB0C3V?B@LE>`IX`8E#VA/JZ6*;('N<E,TB9
M(C:--6$:UFZ7VQG)4O5)EJE/TJL^29_Z),O5)UFA/LE*]4E6J4^2!_>_)4GV
MZZJ5GV(2PFZG"#L[:Z#W'0\Y:X0WZY7(5?P4H7!+MH1_GT?Z-,%A\7Y10_J,
M1_:D.MX61)S%,ID\U.PTM24,K811?+%NO*4@`>F>P9-@O$JQJ_:XV-5MI 4!
MWZ*W=NXY'59Y5=LTX/(OM59<U<:SJ,&J5@U6F381\"WZR<J%?9L/9ZHV>18S
M6IL(^![H;_[9#V8?R51M\BQFM#81\)VW_/+>US=DK#9Y%C-:FPCX[LYZL&3>
MY1FK39[%C-8F`KX?[)V1/S4K8[7)LYC1VD3 ]_YW_VO;)2<S]IG.LYC1VD3 
M]Z.VO[][[I;W,E6;/(L9K4T$?%VEEV7=<<N[F:I-GL6,UB8"OOL>7#]R>T/&
M:I-G,4.UB>])#AJSB&BE0ZKHL 6K.3@&K.8PF2+7#K&:0[VG5:S$Z(BKY^"@
ML8L;FG=,F[]XJ%S7=NKME4^S4.?3+-122QYMR:?'`K$=<UW'4T\FUW5JLS 9
M,))RS'7->^LB6LC 4]=*!HSK[%[><N.)2S_00 :>NE8R8)3I\L=^+=PG'-) 
M!IZZ5C)@S.L%2SN/?&760@:>NE8R8 3N,MLI\Y@5[VL@`T]=*QDP'GCI&Y,>
M^F/[,0UDX*EK)0-&)W_S\ N['O[F8PUDX*EK)0/&2C^XL[Q4F^<#3UTK&3!R
M.[EGG"6!NF40ZA99!IYZ\O4<DIV%/?VQ*CP[DV+%'7*LN$,HAB\";#4P#KHZ
MHJ% ]\R>SHF=`5P50&@3W:5V")Z83(@>F@G1$;-7%)>A4*S3\!7&<-,C9BB,
M[S]XG09EG N*R+@2.$;XFM@95ZB!UI!PL!TBV1\98]J?(JU:1(,[*([N%'W6
MR\DJJT;V9%>[%3W['9I&@Z=3&F:34D/8I-10-BDSA$W*#&43KR%LXC6437R&
ML(G/4#8I-X1-R@UEDPI#V*3"4#:I-(1-*@UEDRI#V*3*4#;1(AH\_3;1,AH\
MG=(P=*)61BS05XWM3-3#(\%HCW]&* `B.M$`>X+1!>UU3=5UDZ2V1FR;$PQ&
M`CUB)DJ'T 3[@NS39J@+1.O6]7EZ5J[J$Y&$\P;P-77$U108Q &/@3!6&AI@
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MK>-,`SZ>'FF834H-89-20]FDS! V*3.43;R&L(G74#;Q&<(F/D/9I-P0-BDW
ME$TJ#&&3"D/9I-(0-JDTE$VJ#&&3*D/91#M\/)TVT1X?3X\T["V_5L8S&#X^
MG)S5PXF.DCF77+)N69^GCDK*<( &."6WUXMMC3%M#6);$]P>E-H:Q;9FF,QR
M@<IXN7- O-P9%]0\"(AH2P`1[6*)YD1<TAD7V:L*23Z\5162?(RG*B3Y0$=5
M2/+1?JJ0Y$/>5"')QWVI0I(/?E*%)!\!]"U)XJ_8)=C@P@YV9H=?T"KD+L$!
M*\.(@GL0V 36YL2L4=U=GG#U^?X0S3WD$EQ0VIN(IO\#3O5CCF27X(9GVY0J
M5![2@WHQVRRT]M3(35(6I'QZSI!5')<';]8HU<:2'Y=/QBGUQI(?5T#&*17'
MDA\WG(Q3:HXE/^X<,DZI.I;\N!%DG%)W+/EQ(\DXI?)8\N,*R3BE]ECRXT:1
M<:G:O82,*X*KAJP_YI(1=9>,J+N$8L@-LC,IGY%+S&=T`3E30&]\`L^28OLH
MPI\%>1@G)WZ'][<5*&F%++'9C+)CTW3QN476)4QQ`<Q,2&.41=,8T2IDRF2C
M<V*F&RB!T:#3,AE+8 W-6^0:,&^1*Y6\13%;[5PR%Y?<SDBFD+?(D74N8 PE
M'CF2<CLC6:8^2:_Z)'WJDRQ7GV2%^B0KU2=9I3[)%/(6#4V2_;IJH5"\J]3!
M`T$W(>HB:]U7Q!_Z&'*/PNTS\S @"W/S+-PJ9-GP+2SUO86&EF319'_9-'V1
MBRR)`Q.41R:7OLB.ZWLK_N*_!M-!:2C>]S!]4?S0A/1%=KS)$ +LIA%/P@WG
M$Q*-,O/X9)\!%=+L1.KAYMPSB((T3XM;?Z:8](4F<O^+)E#^#M1+S#':Y,Z7
MB]D2!Z7/N!YX!J:Y)EE\M.^@FL.L32RKHJ(Y?NB0FN-)L-MK,_@#4?^&E9>O
M[UN!'['6\P:\Z4XBC[\A'7@<XBJMB:[&FN@M%EL<XBI-:F<D)Q.20SKPI$9R
M"B$YI -/:B1;",DA'7A2(SF5D!S2@2<UDJV$Y) ./*F1G$9(#NG DQK)-D)R
M2 >>U$A.)R2'=.!)C:0?#M<,Z<"3+$G\3;G)"\GV0+1]3G>DQ]^-CG3X^N$F
M+R?S(M[V.>%PJ*8&;D:W/#=Y33%UD+9 ,%A#$P:XR4O*RO;H3("V@^S:A==A
M$!,*N,D+";GVLVLKN<[#ZQG0S3[-QZMVY=,"O.[ JT)R-1SR`K&I"UA,(#X>
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MX]X.(Q=)EM<>N3-VI()<O$O8VV$F45Q#`]O;\2VYU,'><6]'9[RPM\.,]D$9
MU]X.MUP>":=RRVHM`#"0H7 51>JU+'K5QTI(+-'R8T3%MA-B>&@VT>INXN'1
M`-_U'WSATXQYN)*'_^P!-P#\[0OIUSV\_5,W7,7#+WO C0`_OZIVP:"UW[KA
M:A[^DP?<!/#96[]L>:WO13=<P\,O><!C`+[DP3=OU/WPM1O.\? ?17#68WWX
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M+)7+/QG/R.61'786TLK'Y^1*`@L&D@?Y!>1=/J2 X9\D/ N8"-<F/#Y N! .
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M\[_]QL09`7[[B$W%#=?*V'YCXDP`GUGXV82'UE[VO_W&Q,4`W/GZ^<N?+/K.
M__8;$]>'K*[%*(Z)Z\N?Y5ID'DVWWYBX?N2RY=!SRU[>]*<S?K;?7 _H6+)A
MJ'O[S#@8%PJ-CF\:GO4CI!5PH=;3G35G.[#3SO(G^JCI.3^=KQ'%JAI'YCGQ
M#"83UY_HZAL'L_"7B8LGET7[=I)(I/M16 H]VYIUND-X5^,3WQ2%'F(6TK?S
M0Z\4>F%GEU2<U68`B>-KDTC6E%G,A,\?2%KM+)5$S$Z6,I-T>E"@B4LFFT4G
M@EI$$;=3)4:T+G_U08E.^G2M*(7=0WPX294J$+XQ;B6=']+%ZI,"7V8\5\O$
MI9)ECLYGU9FX0=#Q,D]--+AOG92<FFARY3.5@T.O,BWT*BVA5YD>>I49H5<Y
M)/0JAX9>Y;#0J\QTS5HA4,F^7<(!H28NA\SF4[DP=[%4'FGGYX=\.BO@#%9 
M=HF^UM(`/LX*D@#^SWP`O[-8YP"^,!MT"N"C.)NWZ.F5M36$S00CO<X$>&KE
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M[/P!G+6 `H=,JR;_3K:4.<IK' YSF6V*%!*&;B_1:LBC:9:62G,1M(;E<&1+
MFJ5R0E7=6,+G:,F;:99:QT2B%3!AF#/!7D>*<NDIG>!18T[5A$F$OP['ZS*'
M7= 1@==7VZH(F5C $'K,<3I*!8E(O*ZTU0C747AMFUA#%.PZFI5/(2/9M8%J
MK*\2\$9V72%<FZA\?;EP'4.6V2Q3'+8:>@8%T?9#Z[ 31R6&P1%+M+%DGI75
M/(ZLS';;`S7U)Z>LS!X,$4_F#)9:(P%S1-88@-<B:R3BM<0:`S%'9(TDO!99
MPXS7(FLDLW*7-5)(LE6P!C*DDHV#66N?3(_&D:=-P_8V3*@97SO6X:@S-^28
MS6:\`2"SP3&N?*RCS,QL,:YJ8GV=V3FAQEQ97U&796;WD/ /;R=:"WE^,)XC
M0;3I9$V^<(<)F<)8,S"/:B4.EC,$<YPU-GM=%6%R0\GB@L;*6V[&,Z-W%#+4
M,))1W%C;/(^0V_CV9I*SA8T39BP@O%067E?=<AMI[Z C%3'#,:^L>0:.9<1D
MX_7533>3L*@PP6XYF.=LGDZ:&287KRN;YN/SLOOPMLK#/-N\^>R46\S)9ZC%
ML,@8Q?04$&-VX]4+;VZFY^ 2[0B286ND)_$.@ZO1G6R;;S;CHT*H%<=-1MM*
MK7@5>3Z+I0J)N9BEQKA219!BM2TF6[(ZVZK$PU;63K:R>;%5:2=;V3O9"C67
MN6QU`Z_)X<5:3@]KE4NLA3EC7=;"WX92HH!Y9D/:M@L1#_?)P&5\%LYB+,3P
M?0GIKYX4E?GJ^A)%1#AY&._+Z7BEA#T80Z7%_1OXCGH5,#<EPZS2M'AXY2TP
M'X9!CI:<2Q[(I\,@G<2G=:+\<%%^A"BMA_0`/ATIRH\2R4:+\@VB?*,HWT33
MV'<*F&4FVU@JEBRRLEK'D656M/W<+-(417/ZDY@4%I#AK"PG'G*805+>8CD)
MD,-\UUP^9X"0TW\DGY/HTE/P%JO+0&)*.=?!2I/<+#S>[&;A>9/=+'Q."DDH
MXEFLK"6II)5OB84LSK# 6,8G6N%=0PJ8!8JN^>^+0@Q+N&N(*,,(W@>&Y:.O
ML925\^@,TG<(_1%<.L/J1BL`C2L!!<P6!4/$6WDBW4%0%LO@M/1>(FV&E:5Q
M)=!93!K+4(AC&9W%HVD=AY(W,QIK<_@Z#B,W*=I/OK[^7X7[1'4,@Q4`*\^$
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M_EQ2(<+W]XG7`9[]+CM$^'B?^'!!_U:K")_@$Q\!>';[=+$(;_")UPOM?=0F
MPAM]XB-=^#(1WN03'P5X-H>/%^%C?.*C7?B)(GP?GWB#T-ZY-2)\7Y]XH\L^
MM2)\/Y]XD]!?]XGQL5[Q*8"/(8_8%OT67^.%1[95LU_ [UR_@$KP#W=;&RO,
MF>8RME91,C\Q)SL;%6; =7]2,)B-DWTPS/L"%P9B-#.)GA)KB/"<. 3'`_@W
M?U_PQSCU8?_@! "7%#3^WSC]$?_@`0!^9?[L-=_<>=0_.!' #\P]<6GC61F:
M!P+XQR58ZW;_X"0`/V)'W9_Z!YL!#!6&-N[Q#TX&\$5:C1W^P2D`'K'2-NW8
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M'_X-DX77`?[G#GS%RL*'`SYWU=%1JXZ>+)&#CP!\33V^COU+#EX/^%2L_JT_
MR=(?"?B!%-]'5OVC`$_-<VNZ+'PTX.=3@1Q9> /@-[T`KR$C9>&-@*?F''65
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M'U@KE%;Y==+3.NDE=8H$36?NG_SPJ)<OE<C7%$DU14HT18&F18?GFI?>?2H`
M35%44Y1$4S1HFKEIUY,%<<\%H"F::HJ6:#*$;#P90S:>3"$83[AN4=,](_C[
MK885S.A2O)>"[>11PSIFC;6QVMQRR]RF^:3.0,9 7G^R7O1U3R?],.:LB%5$
ML(T5]V;9](KP.B7E3(0<#;US0T.,9B8?#_*5':6/O?XI3DZ!RR> _+L7EML_
MC\/>#EQ^`,@O>.C<-?/?#$X^$>2?_GC?Z>^N-P0E/Q#D=Z[X_L6FW.B@Y)- 
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M*0V,I30X%GM@+/;@6,H"8RD+CL41&(LC.!9G8"S.X%C*`V,I#XY%7D39Q1)8
M1)EC^VTX_NR*LA:\T=0`'@&GU9+(%$&-05E-,@G_"_I3"7)[VTX0H< -!1&Z
M.B5N8;U$?RS%&TPT_ 83]S83) H#HBT3GWWE1.:-UBXET@'1L]N6DWN.W=NU
M1.% M*#TAM_.>GY5UQ)%`-$-,;<^M7C:ZN"(F$+_1'H<#)FZ62>VK>S:%D4"
MT:G2X__8OOF^KB6*`J(?;Y]PQ_\<;^E:HF@@NKMYWZ8Y(PJZELCP:WUAC;\6
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MOGE7/D)Z^ZZ&S3_7'>DPNA\F1C<_/]):NJ\566B^R$A<V@(VMO7>`VY?^V#]
M4$B30=I#;=H7F6T[AD!:(TC;E=KY\=8CM@V!-#](RYTQ\=U#AD1:`*1M#&UZ
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MZ;H/72?0=2)=]Z7K)+KN1]?)=-V?KE/0ENP`NN+?R05%\ 0_.1I5(@%UD20#
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M74B2`01LGT5CPWSDNIVLE.W-V%9GMMNV<W,D%MV3M8.T<2@M!AU38,HLI[5!
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M_QHZ%\\W&3E$@[H241>)4_=\^[,U@!F*Z==C,< F`C:%/9)H:)1#BF'2++E_
MV8OY#D!9`;FY60%B(?] Q)J 0T07OGT0(IH.D]RHR/Z@X"IQU)3D2+.B*2;[
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MA"HJ`5KP9.P9U?UR3-$TW>6W@.8;C"<WZZY4F?NMID;<R&LD/RKD0I2#//W(
M4P%E3->6B :0)\QH3$K(K7D>"O)0H2K($3D*S$U!W40CHES6"/57H,TTIKBA
MY><;T2#W0!-2,2CG<E"YE6!&W5J(Z$+BJ^KQ1<5H"'- 2=U$5&-;P6=U/4#A
MYZ)A1&-Z5 G)K$ ;P<R24,%FL:)JJ*.^FK)(J"O0*.J@Z7$U;Q^TQ"DT-AGH
M)$./-ROL&8X;-&N0GR0_Q(1&XT/<Y/DB(8$O*F!KI$?N,1IAT%!:%*P"8D;C
M-*,0TXUZG(EX:"G8V*T70L,$MC3*6DP-ZX;"NK@'+,*1Y]<1B+22QVJP0G*S
MV&(^%S%#5_,YLXUR)LQ9#&LQZKZDD T,.:H&3!$=I_+,%-<@-\:@<&$24H2V
M2U&GF"%#GC'%- G^IZ$6@;@&`P%D"B"G<Z^**4:$3@R6-:D)HM-$^=AN\;B.
M1!3N=+/-V!P(R+@FQM]..5;W!R%0(:V9?&P=*$=D">2$6"=5'\50`W(^&FWL
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M*#3#.*TL,('374]93C:@8A['D1M$EM'SF?"GI'O(`),=Q9$;>5Z.%.;W)M)7
MA859!).70']&J*:@LT+X',+UO;F0:>*FD'%+894CD%NY#VM*P%T7_AS'U IK
MT&8>T-R&M]'*!A:;00C&D@S["^(0U\S\3G,=GX68;A3O_GZ)=%"?H1H5U=%?
MD1W*=Y6_+L1X486_G5:#\%G1BBKF'82Z-<KE\!NQ$H;%?Q'?._E:2%/"Q3K<
MQ2N5AHOCA'L>O>]NRA.\QB#5>LI\LF&H)HRB6<3L/20]J&HR: 7_=;/BO82K
MF(R06%#_EF<'+:28LQN!E;N6O(_G+J-XKC?0'L706]0`QJ5 [^>K+RKVG!9G
MYP'B6[PI9$LX_8-Y7RY>3VPD>5%81LL1TF\6G\M--,:XH;OGT/L>XN-0N*[(
M\7<\#J RNYD=.3Y,-8G63OEZ@?@C0M\82-+UYKR/_)YJ7D1?E']N@'9XE'M#
M& R9C]''4->2)PQ(^3BM?7&K!\O%&HX]01BN"S3:+Z#^F_D:V8RI[@Y@"_FA
M`3-MYCFB#9_D\6)$XU"R@C#+,3?'/<6C!E;P;D9]FJ]D-,E0=5?//_"Z`DL%
M4\>'=QQ]AB*?5K;HSJ+_LV1G/4Y36,>E/,?KD,$C$:F>)R3>V*C[0^P?'-O*
ML:80C.>J.1Q[@><2OA1=P[F]2/$*"U_3K;,ON7$BP;3#'+L:_M'=\=%N5!?4
M?RJ@H".,\I]<ULN$!Q5\7(,81LHKY'VPYQ"6?)5[.:UWA3?<Q;F^1MG1:/7#
M(@TJ1M[77R?;*P'9<'T*^;PAHC4F\25N(6+?Q-I9LM9'W=X26:-)UT)L`<?>
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MAU+_4NPP#VR6!S:[#-L'L#EL*\H`K^K(.1U].7<&#T<\8">M%5;&!FPR8$<0
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M#MAR]8 MUPS8<JUG"T;_=07=`M9R3!<<O[[0HP2_P0/'VO)3Y*-W.VGQ^<:B
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M4:_AG,9S5K?X_#I2%'U^`[U-?,:9>1,K8XN=Z8%%@CNK;V&?%@>V%A@-^*T+
M4KY=@G+*=Y!;@5*@[V*=JG@"\!Y6D1(4O?_],I2Q>6=S^@\JZ!']LR>7#TFB
MG<U)!65XRU^(WJME&_IN10O*^"OU*7Y6@>A'GNAV3_3C"A0M^ EIN2K=`[J[
MV ZB+,7^YH%]2MJ68COYLX]V.Y/+[ZD^*\,F`?8Y8HT9)^=DNPN;9-ZV:X V
MY/4%K1XA)>;2[6XN^9+7RGY+,CO2N<+>\RO*^K#0S$#1$MC7'M@W91AZ\;?L
MNT3Q4Z!AOAIV^C1^QY]TC8.[6K:NK4%SWT3<`_X9YAO!.MKH3?ZLO( C(]GP
MMF7XOQV-`JD#A+_NKRS MS>'^>#?MH,%AWKVXF*WE2.C`*&W9<<T"OK10'\X
MX_=CX'ZVZ#N6C>>RE@47T.GQ>;V'"[WWACO4>ZGBOE#)^!NDH'E[VRYQ#^-L
MFSB*W]?!_3B!HYY;]N'W]>R%Q>-'\/M1<*\/X_>HV_."'G5[K9;?CV5[MSU5
M0V=#DE9T#AIH=5?;TA9^%"2=9\:U6V@)O6I)K^$C^/U(-KE-%O=U(#,UG-_[
MX/Y_!(YZ?3V,WZ->%PH:U.MX@:->+PH<];KO_XO[#O"HBN[]V5ZR(0D)$)(`
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MR,;1XEQ /,R179(M$2]+&2.?>QE(B(]UI'.!`83X.7+G'?B70TB GR^(6F6Y
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M/9O8NMC+LR7BM]9[U1!"`E9O'BPC!+&+XR8\E#0CQ'A(.Z3&)JYNK'D/$%^3
MD^)M8LNYJ-&D+MX/941-ZH[)V96BM28\Z@YC\IEDU5@_6$G^`:L'L4,(J3L:
MJPC!6,L9M5H)U4/JQKI,Q-[TI-B;VC(T:C2MBSTT.%LB=?M)%2%J/ZFJ),1O
MS<$:RR=@(;\,)43UX"?+)T(I6VV%ZB%J]&LK1 ^:G=2#9K:LCAK-ZH[5ME*C
MF>B!0"ZK(D3U8/-00OPGC6\ST0-YC%D^:LVLL'PB+.6I5ENA>HC:;<ID#^)/
MZD&\[4P`->+KYJ!,:L37[39]AA+B4^MW""&J!Y=9/JH'S8>(51<O=L=B:D6-
M/ATW\76CKQ 5>ZA4Q-[\A-@;\?=UYPW?9C42B-IINLM=H;F(7@"'R@A1X_]L
M*2$J(S4O)T0=`\\.(B1H(0LMY;H^E! 2LB'H<W/>AXPQ'<5()YPT\@FV\PS4
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MX6&3Y">N`BZVJQR_^50MOF$9B)M]6IY6/6I(`2L7OZ#$`A[XY!?1.R_>58^@
M=SYXCQA!+0=83F;:\(+*ZJ[%@RM+1EO/X@6"[,;V:84E1>'PR+QTPD+P!38R
M+\/RBV1/MTVK+BFK'M"G&Z,6&K$9R?B>1_'L82"*34^65K2R8I35F.V7GS0-
MQ-:I=V<#Q:<@`W&L?2Q7$L\.XGT34K:TFW(=6;L9XI"U>UBUX]G:MO"6SVVS
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M3G-LM;N'T[OV)J_<$^KDG? N_P2%`IM"#YM"(5N97%>G2+U#_XK9(R<<;R7L
M*7Z\<2 PB%WDQ--A%57E)=75!?GAKF$\0I%?4%&MCOQ2EITIVRYC0SO0,92>
M&0Z'N\E/(P?*V97MK=V#P]V[,2N."C JJL$GO!LBW^7*=T/ENTODNTIV(_I<
M*<>\RM9N3YJ':M5FKTQ+<1B[PS9NPZ4&^8^P:?2BL1RI-'I2W++F**6#T1M-
M.I;2&)M2;\+&*J4>*IK33E 99U/!#G,ZJTVV1KZJJF1P1:=3'%&=PCF5`S*I
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MRH*-+;L9][':B.<^EMV<^UAV`O>QVDOD/I:=Q'TLNP7W&4UV2^YCV:VXSVB:
M@3#K[996:S8R4XY(,MN<\NCIU95I*WZE44QAB:[?UGYUU=]3+"25(T<6;[L[
MY@$+:<.1<,Z!21^>MI^0MAPI/W1=U:+4`X2DL:TI78ZW_OOWQ0>R9*OMV'1J
MM3UO]?*FM1\?J=I+WAUX_07'HG:]^.3/A'3DR!N3$9O51B>.]'QLX(@Q3UMQ
M=.;(BY^R;YV!7PCIPEL=N'3DPYD?[:56N[+I*9+KQEL=^E7BN1,RK#;2>?V.
M(I!=A&1PY.=KVNV-?,U2[,Z1#7U2!IVSS&JU1[V^9O)67RX).3M>?I#656^V
M-'/<J*[%;*2<AS[L[!1KSONR5<RR^]GL_BP8;ZW4`6P9Y>@::F,@6\U.1++J
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MKL!5K2;MVTT(]O.D/=_W3*C90PCV\W%B`]M,2%NUPV]?+Q'LYZN>ZW7T]<F_
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M0;O=/2QD`-?9]EJCN[NOVD?(0%[KF2YS5SO66<I9')DOMF:K5C;7F71![8"E
M(ZVV<KC.N0>?&C+KSCV$Y/):>Q8^W^3/#RR=/(YX5M_4UU%NZ>2K<P-+IX#K
M]'GNW3-?NV\W(86\UNTXH-^WE(LX\M2"Z3?N/?<P(<4XG^+G1W]_=C1+'H&E
M=$8L>>3,H-C0M]/QC)S)-Q:^N]Q&"'+F`Q7()5M(%3ES6+<.C\1NW$C($)5I
M7R4$.?//#_:]]T;N6X0@9XKM)?D50I S2_F8Q_2TC@#DS&AQF&XF!#G3OR:)
MI[OUA"!GCA0)YFE"D#/_[(NU\S$AR)D3HT?R`7N;$.3,:9__S'/;BX0@9VYI
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M^95+FVRI(C)C+OM[_5_2`[EQ'3;"GOMI9I ;Y;7XKX0@-W;Z[,Z?6CQD^2 W
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M%5PN:M*7$.0KD57>SR8$^4K,2,T`0I"OQ"5/_S@:?^2K^;B9\U0[\D&^XN<$
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MMK]IS[F/O9LJ=]D5[%/DDCY6'Y%+`A01<HG]KJ!'Y!+[74&/R"7VNX)>OF];
MN4(\<\?W[:]H!+U\Q[Y*V4UM=C-VL;+C;7AS=I.R$VP^B3:?))M/"YM/2YM/
M*^&#4??2'B!GSBOV`#$KKXVID0CV`/3PC,Q)A& /$/<U3R\@!'M L3B%[D$(
M]@!Q=GQG.B%J#\C((01[@,@J3Q<2@CU 9-K=V81@#Q#WYI<E$X(]0.Q]CUNU
M\JQXNI40DF_%\TXN(=@#>#+^;>U72=D2P1X@LL-[?<FGR+K"N:*2$.P!XN[@
MBNH:.5IRG?>@T9K(=J2*<YQI85*=Q)8UVU7<Y7CK`2F$3&:)\>*C*<M3LJ6&
M6.?Y;(KDL<[W1N)"5=Z']XIU+N]5["4$Z_SCYKCE^PTA6.?B_+7Y'D*PSOFI
M,K].^(40K'/1GR6'Q3KW\?.4D>*NL(^OJKJ_P?IH#<A>^<0:$*OZKFG9$L$:
M$"M_QRQ"L ;$+:+Q_0C!&A"G53<G$H(U\$YIKRMSMJ42@C4@;G(^FT%(EG7%
MU[47(5@#,H]W)@1K0/1L;0(A6 ,BVTWK2PC60',LBTU]",$:$'^Q^:@K(5@#
MH\5'8.15KD^L`7$%^F<Z^6 -+.8[^/"!A81@#8A>/%68+4>K0HT=^&GLT_;C
M%G:9/.5,=H&L,9T=2I5_*WHH2R(SV"L)<N=82<A,COQQ/K+%[83,XLA(>;N1
MD-GUD#GL@Z0R\0>#%>),U4\SEREFSB]F3OQ!YNK)-1+!S(GSWW\L!#,GST::
MUH@G7?G,?46?>?#S.=ND[($LP679638[V^:?8_//M?GDV>Q\FW^!S;_0YE-D
MLXN%/_H7X/WCHYLKGQ$*\/XM2Q5W3NZ7YR,!WK^KZ>\R\CF$`.^?M<\%>,]N
M4O8`M1<&>,_J?+)L=K;-/\?FGVOSR;/9^3;_`IM_H<VGR&87T[X;8D'>,[F*
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M(!W]/_T`'S_F'%^(G4F6D53&4-F7[;]0[GQ3+I$[W[2+Y<X7HITO1#M?B':^
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M`=5&0+414&T$HUUTM 95:T'56E"U%HSV*3^_\@LJ-D)9(>47J?RB%!NMV!C%
M6K%$\%@LRXHE0L42H6*)B/8IRZ_\@@J+4%9(69'*+TIAT<J*4:P52TB-2XC'
MLI,P*Y:0BB6DQB7$8['\@HJ-4%9(^44JORC%1BLV1K%6+)$\EHUDN<DO4L42
M&>U3EE^Q`86%E!6IV$8*BU96C&(;$]:(]^-+A[0BE 4_G%1$XZ0BQLCY2@RD
M&QN1;@SI6"/2L9".,R(=!^DF1J2;0+JI$>FFD&YF1+H9I..-2,=#NKD1Z>:0
M3C BG0#I1"/2B9!.,B*=!.D61J1;0+JE$>F6D&YE1+H5I,-&I,.0;FU$NC6D
MDXU()T,ZQ8AT"J13C4BG0KJ-$>DVD&YK1+HMI-.,2*=!NIT1Z7:0;F]$NCVD
M.QB1[@#ICD:D.T*ZDQ'I3I#N;$2Z,Z2[&)'N`NFN1J2[0KJ;$>END$XW(IT.
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MZ1F0GFE$>B:D9QF1G@7IV4:D9T-ZCA'I.9">:T1Z+J3G&9&>!^DSC$B?`>GY
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M,Z0_,R+]&:0_-R+].:2_,"+]!:2W&)'>`NDOC4A_">E:(]*UD/[*B/17D-YJ
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MP,_!V[C(-ZZ(L2.#HUE'_KZQF!_\VW\!8\WX##F<'@<;YH)W`F-)S'D#\SEO
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M:#AQ3_38C0[&;G;@IF4R6^[PL@ULHM/![G;XQ7U*_'>O`V=PMSAP3_)^]C2[
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MN3N.]"I:,&_Q&>DG^KO8`5</YL1?H]AQ=KS5J7S8L+F3YX5A',G9?N2!T/$N
M&\>7LUVNIHSE?W+L]=#X[-S2A_*C658@CNV_H"_;ZPK:%/>YO#P&[CW@5V7M
M5]9N%V,'74Q\[OS_`5!+`0(4`!0``@`(`,N[-1U,KW0LV04``/L+```*````
M``````$`( ````````!214%$344N5%A44$L!`A0`% `"``@`NEE*'9#>)#/2
M````_@(```H````````````@`````08``%!31$A6,BY)0T]02P$"% `4``(`
M" !W=E,=T%*ZRLFN`0`HF0L`"@```````````" ```#[!@``4%-$2%8R+E="
7,5!+!08``````P`#`*@```#LM0$`````
`
end



From Shergills@gnn.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1091 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!pop.gnn.com!Shergills
From: Shergills@gnn.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: New Discovery of an Infinite Energy Supply
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 03:34:47
Organization: GNN
Lines: 29
Sender: Shergills@gnn.com (Harjit  Shergill) (from ˜2	)
Message-ID: <50gn74$jtl@news-e2b.gnn.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 47-191.client.gnn.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-GNN-NewsServer-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:37:08 GMT
X-Mailer: GNNmessenger 1.3

New Discovery of an Infinite Energy Supply
          A discovery that meets all the energy needs of mankind.

Low temperature (above 65 degrees celsius)
catalystic production of hydrogen from water.  

Inventors:   Harjit Shergill                     Patent Pending
                 Kamaljit Shergill
               
Demonstration will be held on
Tuesday September 24, 1996
at 10:00 AM Location: 6150 Old Winter Garden Rd.
Orlando, Fl. 32835

The composition of the catalyst
will again be revealed at 
this final demonstration.

       If you have already received instructions for the
manufacture of the catalyst through IRC chat rooms you must by now 
have convinced yourself of the validity of this discovery through 
your own experimentation.We now request that you share this 
information with all those interested in this or related fields of 
energy, after this final date/demonstration 
(Tuesday September 24, 1996) Direct all inquires
to E-mail address:  (Shergills@Gnn.com) 
Location chosen for demonstration purposes only, 
no information available on site prior to demonstration.



From jbullard@uoguelph.ca Fri Sep 13 23:13:23 EDT 1996
Article: 1092 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!torn!ccshst05.uoguelph.ca!ccshst01!jbullard
From: jbullard@uoguelph.ca (James A Bullard)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: heating a pool?
Date: 3 Sep 1996 17:36:28 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ccshst01.uoguelph.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

I have an inground 14 X 28 foot swimming pool that refuses to stay above 
70 except in the hot August months.  Is there a way to run the water 
through black pipes on the roof and down to the pool?  How many feet of 
pipe?  How big a pump?
Any ideas?
James


From solardc@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1093 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: solardc@aol.com (Solardc)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol ?
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:10:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 26
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50jh24$mk9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <320E6F1B.5AEE@execpc.com>, Tom Leit <tomtdl@execpc.com>
writes:

>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
>heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
>house in Wisconsin.  We bought the house but got no information on
>the system which is probably about 10 years old now

Does the system have a single or double wall exchanger? Most immersed heat
exchangers are single wall. If you have a double wall, you can use
ethylene glycol. If not, or you are unsure, you can get Propylene glycol 
(make sure you get the corrosion inhibitors!) from the following: 1) In
auto supply stores, look for "Sierra" brand antifreeze 2) From plumbing
supply outlets, you can ask for hi-temp non-toxic (Propylene glycol).
Hercules "CryoTek" is a popular brand on the east coast. Make sure you get
heating system antifreeze, which has the inhibitors. Camper antifreeze
does not have it and will break down quickly in your HW system. You an get
the plain stuff and add some DiPotassium Phosphate, which is a non-toxic
buffering and anti-corrosion agent. 

Used glycols probably do not have adequate inhibitors, either.

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc
800 DCSOLAR Fax 888DCSOLAR
http://home.aol.com/solardc


From solardc@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:26 EDT 1996
Article: 1094 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: solardc@aol.com (Solardc)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Source for Glycol -followup
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:22:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 48
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50jhnr$mno@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <tirap3sd8e.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <tirap3sd8e.fsf@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>, Albrecht Kadlec
<albrecht@java.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at> writes:

>> There is an added benifit of having anticorrosion and leak sealing 
>> properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

See my post on some commercially available PG a/f's. Leak sealers may void
pump mfrs. warrentees of their water lubricated pumps. 
>
>YES, BUT
>. where do this properties come from, and are these chemicals toxic?
Not in PG. Make sure this is DiPotassium Phosphate.
>. are these anti-corrodants, etc useful. i.e: do they actually prolong
>	the life of the solar system? 

Absolutely. You must keep your pH above 6. Actually about 7.5 to 8 is
ideal. the phosphate is a buffering agent which keeps your system alkaline
and thus free of corrosion (actually electrolytic action between iron and
copper components which accelerates if pH drops below 6)
>. where does corrosion come from in a closed system, filled with
>	propylene glycol and water?  The amount of minerals and the pH
>	of the water shouldn't matter much for a closed system.
If pH goes below 6, which can happen at high temps or in the presence of
oxygen, the iron dissolves away, causing leaks in the expansion tanks or
pumps.  
>	(I assume refills will occur seldom - less than once per year)

Check for pH annually for heating systems (which get real hot in summer)
or every other year in DHW systems. As long as you keep the pH up, you
never need to change the fluid. If you go away in the summer, have someone
come over your house and use up the hot water or cover your panels; your
antifreeze will thank you.
>
>I always use ethanol/water/dish washing liquid as a windscreen
>cleaning fluid and it's less than half the price of the commercial 
>"windscreen cleaner", so I suspect it's the same for 
>propylene glycol/water vs. "Auto/Solar Antifreeze".
Yeah if you wanna buy it by the 55 gal drum (which I do, being in the
solar biz).
>
>hope someone can clear the muddy waters of commerce.
>
Most importantly, keep that a/f clear by keeping up the pH!

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc
800 DCSOLAR Fax 888DCSOLAR
http://home.aol.com/solardc


From solardc@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1095 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: solardc@aol.com (Solardc)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Rad
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:31:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50ji9t$mpc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <MPLANET.3218f93agrjkgray9896a9@news>, grjkgray@taranaki.ac.nz
(Geoff) writes:

>Hi approx how many Kwatts per square meter (daily average) has the sun at

>33 deg latitude

More importantly, look up the solar data for your nearest city. One us on
this list will be able to get it for you. Radiation , due to local climate
can vary even at the same latitude.

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc
800 DCSOLAR Fax 888DCSOLAR
http://home.aol.com/solardc



From solardc@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1096 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: solardc@aol.com (Solardc)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Hot water for storing heat
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:40:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50jiqv$mqt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <MaxEper-1908962351430001@cnc047042.concentric.net>,
MaxEper@cris.com (Steve S) writes:

>1. What are some good high temp (say, 180F) tank options?

60 mil EPDM rubber in a box tank lined with urethane foam, then lined with
the EPDM.
>
>2. What would be the lowest temp that water is useful for heating,
>assuming forced air heat and an in duct heat exchanger. Is 100F a good
>number to calculate from?
 Yep, just spec that when you order your coil. (I can get you one if you
want). Better yet, use under floor radiant heat. No wasted electricity on
that blower. Actually, Any water temp higher than your room temp will give
some heat. Don't forget DHW heating, which is a significant load (20
gal/person/day). Useful temp there starts from  what ever your ground
water temp is (= to avg year-round temp. )

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc
800 DCSOLAR Fax 888DCSOLAR
http://home.aol.com/solardc


From judy45@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1097 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: "Judith A. Clegg" <judy45@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A cure for a damp basement?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 05:27:10 -0700
Organization: Danudesign
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <322D759E.63A2@ix.netcom.com>
References: <509kb8$nt5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <50ct0h$qss@news.dca.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ana-mi1-08.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  2:27:53 AM PDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:27071 alt.energy.renewable:17775 alt.architecture.alternative:7901 alt.solar.thermal:1097

Lynn,

> 
> The house we are buying has the same kind of basement. In addition, it
> has a pipe with spring water flowing (we think it was the original house
> water--before the well was added). The water is always cold (even in mid
> summer) and I've been trying to think of some way to use the cold water
> before sending it on it's way out of the basement. I don't know if it's
> drinkable, but I thought of somehow cooling a box (a beer cooler? storage
> for extra veggies or eggs?) with it, then directing it out of the
> basement. It's a shame to waste such nice coldness. Any ideas?
> 

I don't know about ways to use it as 'cold' water, but my aunt and uncle 
have two spigots for their kitchen sink.  One delivers well water, which they 
prefer to drink, and the second delivers city water so that they don't have 
the mineral problems in their pipes.  They also have a storage tank that 
collects rain water, and that is hooked up to their washing machine.  My 
aunt says that you don't need fabric softener.  Do have the spring water 
checked.... that can open up many possibilities.

Judy


From wb8foz@netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:32 EDT 1996
Article: 1098 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.engr.mech
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!wb8foz
From: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Subject: Needed -- 1" NPT to 1" NPSH thread adapter
Message-ID: <wb8fozDxA4HF.55K@netcom.com>
Followup-To: poster
Summary: who makes...?
Keywords: piping, thermal piping 
Reply-To: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:46:27 GMT
Lines: 19
Sender: wb8foz@netcom13.netcom.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1098 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8840 sci.engr.mech:29247

I'm looking for an adapter from 1" NPSH [i.e. pipe thread but NOT
tapered] to standard pipe thread.

I'm using a electric water heater as a storage tank for a 72000 BTU
ground source heat pump system. I wish to remove the unneeded heating
elements and use those ports for the load loop.

To do that, I must convert from the untapered thread (with O-ring
seal) that the elements use, to normal NPT.

I'm told such is available in the solar power field but my
enquiries so far have come up.... dry...

Suggestions welcome.
-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead........vr vr vr vr.................20915-1433


From noppie@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1099 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.ro.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: noppie@aol.com (Noppie)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: repost Spread Sheet passive Solar heat
Date: 5 Sep 1996 20:24:52 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50nr0k$5ol@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: noppie@aol.com (Noppie)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Please Repost Spread Sheet passive Solar heat in a format like Microsoft
Excel or Claris works .

If you have information on how I can setup a spread sheet . I will do the
work and repost the info . 
I am artist not a sceintist , but I could probablay figure it out ?

noppie @aol.com.


From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:35 EDT 1996
Article: 1100 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 07:03:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca5-44.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 12:45:49 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

jbullard@uoguelph.ca (James A Bullard) wrote:

>I have an inground 14 X 28 foot swimming pool that refuses to stay above 
>70 except in the hot August months.  Is there a way to run the water 
>through black pipes on the roof and down to the pool?  How many feet of 
>pipe?  How big a pump?
>Any ideas?
>James

Stay tuned.
I'm playing with the same idea right now.  I have a 11X23 foot pool
that is hovering at 83F with a cheap bubble pool cover and 400 feet of
black 1/2" hose laid flat on top of a patio cover. (Don't try this
with one big long 400 foot length!  Cut it in 50 ft sections and use
connectors for that sort of hose.)  I am tapping the high pressure
side of the pool pump that runs a pressure operated pool sweeper, and
returning to the low pressure side returning to the pool.  I have a
in-line screen filter (like you find for drip irrigation) and a pvc
ball valve set so about 1 gpm runs through the hose system.

Result?  With the nights dropping into the 50s and days around 85, I
think that the 83F I am sustaining now is pretty good.  But I suspect
that the pool cover is doing a lot more than the black hose.  This
weekend I will take temperatures exiting the hose and report back.  I
probably need about 8 times more hose to do any real good.

Steve



From john@nine7.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 13 23:13:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1101 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!nine7.demon.co.uk
From: john <john@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: New Discovery of an Infinite Energy Supply
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 12:27:17 GMT
Organization: an ascii newshead's glass screen
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <841840037snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
References: <50gn74$jtl@news-e2b.gnn.com>
Reply-To: john@nine7.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nine7.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: nine7.demon.co.uk

Odour de spam, me smells.

"Did you know gullible isn't in the dictonary" seems to be fitting here.

Maybe bubbles from beer will be more productive?
-- 

Yours sincerely....John G.*?*?*?*?*? Us Neuron's don't KNOW that much, period.
*What is existance without socialising?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?
(Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech' power.)c?
(Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving
so as apathy doesn't drown lurkers)c?


From gweaver@sprynet.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1102 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!info.ucla.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster
From: gweaver <gweaver@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: A cure for a damp basement?
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:02:47 +0500
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <322E7B17.722C@sprynet.com>
References: <509kb8$nt5@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <50ct0h$qss@news.dca.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hd53-033.compuserve.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
To: Brian Helfrich and Lynn Wigglesworth <helfrich@universal.dca.net>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:27187 alt.energy.renewable:17820 alt.architecture.alternative:7915 alt.solar.thermal:1102

> The house we are buying has the same kind of basement. In addition, it
> has a pipe with spring water flowing (we think it was the original house
> water--before the well was added). The water is always cold (even in mid
> summer) and I've been trying to think of some way to use the cold water
> before sending it on it's way out of the basement. I don't know if it's
> drinkable, but I thought of somehow cooling a box (a beer cooler? storage
> for extra veggies or eggs?) with it, then directing it out of the
> basement. It's a shame to waste such nice coldness. Any ideas?

I don't know the quantity of flow you have, obviously not much since the
house requires a well, but look at water-sourced heat pumps.  You
probably need a small unit.  You may be able to get as much as 1 ton of
heating/cooling without the need for an expensive ground loop, expense
of submersible pump, or even the nominal cost of a circulating pump. 
Water quality is the concern for this type of open loop.

You may be able to supplement the spring with a nominal flow from the
well to achieve 100% heating/cooling for the house!


From nefsoto@brainiac.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1103 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!nntp-ucb.barrnet.net!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!fsc.fujitsu.com!pagesat.net!brainiac.com!usenet
From: nefsoto@brainiac.com (Neftali Soto)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Rights
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 22:04:20 GMT
Organization: brainiac services
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <50nj0m$7ln@hal.brainiac.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hdial15.brainiac.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I'm not sure if this would be the right group to check, but, could
anybody point me in the right direction to find info. in connection
with property owners solar rights. 
My concern is that a building is planned next to a friend's house and
he believes that shadow from the building may affect the solar energy
effects on his house (especially during the winter).  If anybody knows
about any state, federal or local law (or any case precence on that
respect) it would be greatly appreciated.  Private e-mail welcomed.
N. Soto, Connecticut 
******************************************
Neftali Soto, LLB District 11, Connecticut
nefsoto@q.continuum.net
nefsoto@brainiac.com
http://q.continuum.net/~nefsoto/ltleague.htm
**********************************************



From rwbake19@webserve.net Fri Sep 13 23:13:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1104 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.industrial,alt.inventors,alt.manufacturing.misc,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.sci.tech.indonesian,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.sources,alt.sources.wanted
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mystical.net!not-for-mail
From: rwbake19@webserve.net
Subject: requesting information - Alternative Energy Equipment sources
Message-ID: <967cc$c71d.fa@news.mystical.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 18:01:17 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Lines: 41
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.industrial:5850 alt.inventors:4675 alt.manufacturing.misc:413 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:36088 alt.sci.tech.indonesian:3350 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1746 alt.solar.thermal:1104 alt.sources:11523 alt.sources.wanted:8990

requesting information - Alternative Energy Equipment sources

I am requesting information from any individual with knowledge of
Alternative Energy Equipment sources - items include, solar
panels(electrical & hot water/heating), geothermal equipment,
windmills (power & water), water wheels, solar collection equipment,
methane digestors, hydraulic rams, electrical generators (DC & AC),
wood stoves, etc. and any sources of auxiliary equipment.

The country of origin is of no importance as we are trying to collect
information from as broad a spectrum as possible and feel that many
countries, not as blessed as we are with natural energy resources have
made great strides in the field of alternative energy generation.

Please provide by direct email if possible, email address, URL,
mailing address or contact and phone number or any information that
can be used to track down these companies.

Manufacturers & Exclusive Importers / Exporters please send
information, catalogs, pricing, etc. to

Alternative Technologies
316 Epperstone Ct.
Matthews, North Carolina     28105
USA
attn: R W Baker
fax - 704.847.6624
email - rwbake19@webserve.net

I wish to thank all that respond or pass this along to others.  I will
try to reply to each response as I have made many friends around the
world in this fashion.  I also wish to apologize to those that feel
that I have invaded a private group.  Suggestions as to the most
appropriate groups for this purpose will be most appreciated and not
be taken lightly.

Sincerely,
Richard W. Baker






From john@nine7.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 13 23:13:42 EDT 1996
Article: 1105 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!nine7.demon.co.uk
From: john <john@nine7.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 08:07:56 GMT
Organization: an ascii newshead's glass screen
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <841997276snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>
Reply-To: john@nine7.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: nine7.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30
X-Mail2News-Path: nine7.demon.co.uk

In article <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>
           jbullard@uoguelph.ca "James A Bullard" writes:

> I have an inground 14 X 28 foot swimming pool that refuses to stay above 
> 70 except in the hot August months.  Is there a way to run the water 
> through black pipes on the roof and down to the pool?  How many feet of 
> pipe?  How big a pump?
> Any ideas?
> James
> 
The cooling is mainly through evaperation, if you buy a whole lot of foating 
toys this will reduce the surface area of evaperation and reduce the wind speed 
across the pool.
Hose pipe in larg quantity is cheap and a pump meant for a pond fountain would 
drive the water through as long as air doesn't get in the syphon. -- 

Yours sincerely....John G.*?*?*?*?*? Us Neuron's don't KNOW that much, period.
*What is existance without socialising?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?*?
(Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech' power.)c?
(Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving
so as apathy doesn't drown lurkers)c?


From bcooley102@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:44 EDT 1996
Article: 1106 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bcooley102@aol.com (BCooley102)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: New Discovery of an Infinite Energy Supply
Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:31:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50st38$1i2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <841840037snz@nine7.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

How about the possability of "photalisis", the braking down of H2O into H
& O using
light.

with current technoledgy we can use P.V. to produce electricity then use
that
electricity in a electrolisis to brake water into hydrogen an oxygen.
these can then be
used in a fuel cell like to produse electricity again, or fuel for other
engines.

the idea of a membrane in water that would do this directly, producing
free hydrogen
on one surface and oxygen on the other. Place such a membrane ina space
between
double glazzed windows and fill whit water!

I dont know if such a membrain has ever been developed but think that
would
possably be a source of cheep solar energy conversion

Bryan Clifford Cooley
If guns are outlawed only POLICE will have guns!
(Who has killed more? murderers or tyrants)


From j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 13 23:13:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1107 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: "John W. Moffett" <j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 01:11:56 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.middletown-64.va.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)
CC: j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net

Hello all,

I live in New Jersey with a well shaded pool.  Have nice sunny roof and 
would like to use solar to warm up the pool by 10 degrees.  Local pool 
stores are no help - if it isn't gas fired they don't do it.

I am having trouble finding dealers, installers, and others with 
experience with pool solar heaters.  (Like, one local pool store warned 
that squirrels will eat the panels!  Any truth to that one?)

Any experience with solar in the North East appreciated.

Thanks,
j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net


From bcooley102@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:47 EDT 1996
Article: 1108 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersurf.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bcooley102@aol.com (BCooley102)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Hot water for storing heat
Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:31:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50st4p$1ig@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <50jiqv$mqt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

much more thermal enegry can be stored in phase change than
heating/cooling
and the temp is more consistant. Remember, it takes 144 BTU to melt a lb.
if ice
@ 32deg F, and the same 144 BTU would raise a lb. of water @ 32deg F to
166deg.
A good phase change for storing heat for domistic use is parifin (wax) it
melts (fuses)
@ about 180deg F. So 1 lb of molten wax @ 180deg F will give up over 60
BTU and
still be 180deg F.  This means that if you calculate you need to store
60,000 BTU
of heat (as apposed to cool, like air conditioning) using water, you need
1000 lb
of water heated to 180deg (from 120deg) and the output temp to your
exchanger
would drop lineraly as you depleted the stored heat. the same 1000 lb of
parifin will
produce about the same amount of thermal storage but the output temp of
the transfer
will stay a constant 180deg. 

Bryan Clifford Cooley
If guns are outlawed only POLICE will have guns!
(Who has killed more? murderers or tyrants)


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Sep 13 23:13:49 EDT 1996
Article: 1109 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 9 Sep 1996 12:11:44 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <511fk0$k7p@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1109 alt.energy.renewable:17935 alt.architecture.alternative:7960

John W. Moffett <j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Hello all,

Hello John,

>I live in New Jersey with a well shaded pool.  Have nice sunny roof and 
>would like to use solar to warm up the pool by 10 degrees.

How about floating two dozen $16 2' x 8' x 2" thick pieces of Styrofoam on the
pool, and putting a layer of 5 cent/ft^2 black polyethylene film on your sunny
roof, and putting another layer of clear film over that, attached with some
75 cent/linear foot aluminum extrusion clamps, and drilling a 1/8" hole every
6" in a 1 1/2" PVC pipe along the ridgeline, to spray some pump filter water
between the two plastic films, which runs down into the gutter and back into
the pool, whenever the sun is shining and the pool is not warm enough?

The weak point in solar pool heating is usually the cover, which is a poor
insulator, compared to a house wall. A 24' x 32' 80 F pool with an outdoor 
temp T might lose 24(80-T)768ft^2/R10 Btu/day through a 2" Styrofoam cover,
and a rooftop with a south-facing area of 20' x 32' might gain 640K Btu/day
of winter sun, and lose (6 hr)(80-T)640ft^2/R1, so if Ein = Eout,

   24(80-T)76.8 = 6(80-T)640, or equivalently,
    4(80-T)76.8 = (80-T)640,  or equivalently,
     (80-T)76.8 = (80-T)160,  or equivalently,
	   76.8 = 160.

Hmmm. What is wrong with this solar arithmetic? Is it true that solar heating
does not work, as many people say?

Aha, I forgot the sun...

   24(80-T)76.8       = 640K - 6(80-T)640,  or equivalently,
     (80-T)76.8       = 26.7K -6(80-T)26.7, or equivalently,
     (80-T)(76.8+160) = 26.7K,              or equivalently,
     (80-T)236.8      = 26.7K,              or equivalently,
      80-T            = 26.7K/236.8,        or equivalently,
      80-T            = 112.8,              or equivalently,
                    T = 80 - 112.8 = - 32.8. 

So, could this pool stay 80 F when the outdoor temp is minus 33 F? Probably
not, since there would be some evaporation of water and heat losses between
the floating panels, and losses to the cool ground around the sides, and 55 F
R10 ground under the bottom, but still... Not bad.

How hot could we make the pool, with this arithmetic? In Philadelphia,
in December, with an average outdoor temperature of 36 F? Tp-36 = 112.8,
so Tp = 112.8 + 36 = 148.8 F. Could we make it a 104 F hot tub?

How much would it cool over a cloudy week? If it were 4' deep, and most of
the heat loss were through its R10 cover, it would hold C = (24x32)x4x64,
about 200,000 pounds of water, with a thermal resistance R = R10/(24x32), so
RC = R10/(24x32)x(24x32)x4x64 = 10x4x64 = 2560 hours or 106 days or 15 weeks.

Over one week, it might cool to 36 + (104-36)exp(-1/15) = 99.7 F.

Nick



From r.bahm@ieee.org Fri Sep 13 23:13:51 EDT 1996
Article: 1111 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!pagesat.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Raymond Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Rights
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:18:20 -0600
Organization: Raymond J. Bahm and Associates
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3234515B.3D21@ieee.org>
References: <50nj0m$7ln@hal.brainiac.com>
Reply-To: r.bahm@ieee.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: pma12.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I)
To: Neftali Soto <nefsoto@brainiac.com>

Neftali Soto wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if this would be the right group to check, but, could
> anybody point me in the right direction to find info. in connection
> with property owners solar rights.
> My concern is that a building is planned next to a friend's house and
> he believes that shadow from the building may affect the solar energy
> effects on his house (especially during the winter).  If anybody knows
> about any state, federal or local law (or any case precence on that
> respect) it would be greatly appreciated.  Private e-mail welcomed.
> N. Soto, Connecticut
> ******************************************
Solar Rights laws tend to be local -- city or state level, I don't
know of any such national laws.  Contact the NortEast Sustainable
Energy Association (NESEA) .
try:
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
23 Ames Street
Greenfield, MA 01301
413-774-6051
Fax: 413-774-6053
-- 
Ray Bahm  --  r.bahm@ieee.org


From wgrenert@bb.mv.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:53 EDT 1996
Article: 1112 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!mv!usenet
From: "William H. Grenert" <wgrenert@bb.mv.com>
Subject: Solar Home Book
Message-ID: <32354668.599C@bb.mv.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Cc: wgrenert@bb.mv.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: Surrounded visions
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:43:52 GMT
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: bb.mv.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 3

Super Solar Houses by Wm. A. Shurcliff

  http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=foa162


From richard@vancom.com Fri Sep 13 23:13:56 EDT 1996
Article: 1113 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!inout.beachnet.com!usenet
From: Richard Lazar <richard@vancom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Hot Tube
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:53:51 -0700
Organization: Vanguard Computers Sales
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3235AB2F.283E@vancom.com>
Reply-To: richard@vancom.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe1-04.beachnet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)

Hi all,

I am interested in converting my hot tub to solar heating. I have looked
at some panels from pro panel, but they seem costly. Also, I looked at
some units from Hi TEMP, which look like just black PVC with black tubes
connecting them. I think I can make these, and run a small 12-24V pump
off a few Solar Panels. I have a good south roof to use. ANy idea how
many feet of tubeing I need, or any other ideas. The Hot tube is 7X7 and
holds about 400 gals. 

-- 
Richard Lazar Vanguard Computer Sales 1910 W. Redondo Beach Bl Gardena
CA 90247
mailto:richard@vancom.com	http://www.vancom.com


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Sep 13 23:13:59 EDT 1996
Article: 1114 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: solar chimneys for thermal and electrical power
Date: 10 Sep 1996 12:18:26 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 190
Message-ID: <5144ci$4o8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1114 alt.energy.renewable:17972

The 1996 World Renewable Energy Congress in Denver had several papers on solar
crop drying, written by people from Canada, France, Mexico, Scotland, Iran and
Australia. In "Modelling and Experimentation of the 'Shell' Dryer" (pp 682-685
of the proceedings), M. Fournier et al discuss the performance of a dryer that
looks like a portable circular charcoal grill, that has been used in Africa
since 1984, which has a dark-colored shallow upright cone with no glazing 
covering a shallow inverted lower cone. The food (eg mangos) is sliced thin
and placed on racks around the lower cone, which has holes in the bottom. It
is warmed only by radiation from the upper cone. They find an approximate
"drying constant" for mangos of Ks = 0.5/thi exp(-3000/Tf), where thi is the
slice thickness. They don't explain Ks and Tf (the fruit temp?) H. El Salman
might, in "Measure de la vitesse de sechage de quelques produits," DUR,
Universite de Perpignan (1989.)

How about a regional solar crop dryer that also makes electricity, along the
lines of the paper "Helio-aero-gravity electric power production at low cost,"
(Renewable Energy, V. 2, No. 2, pp 183-189, 1992) written by M. A. K. Lodhi
and M. Yusof Sulaiman of the physics departments of Texas Tech (Lubbock, TX
79409) and Univ. Pertanian Maylaysia (43400 UPM Serdfang, Selangor, Maylaysia.)
Dr. P. N. Sastry of Devipuram, India, would like to build these into low-cost
houses... His colleague Alok Baveja (baveja@crab.rutgers.edu) would be happy
to hear from people who could help with this.

Abstract: The power production from the helio-aero-gravity concept can be
demonstrated by selecting a flat patch of land in an isolated desert where
solar radiation is abundant. The land may be sprayed with black paint [or
covered with mushrooms on wire racks?] and canopied with some transparent
material. A chimney containing an air turbine is to be installed at the center
of the black patch [see appendage, for a cheap chimney.] At the periphery of
the patch, the canopy should be kept above the ground leaving sufficient
space for cold air to enter the region under the canopy. The black patch
is heated by direct sun's radiation entering through the transparent cover.
The cold air gets heated as it moves over the heated land surface under
the canopy. Due to the pressure difference, the hot air will rise into the
chimney and drive the turbine. The power thus generated could be about 50
megawatts per square kilometer of land at a low cost per energy unit. A
systematic theoretical study is carried out to investigate the scientific
and technical merits of this system for large scale power production, in
particular to investigate heat transfer processes in the system in a
quantitative manner.

Figure 1 of the paper shows an inverted funnel, with a large transparent
canopy over some blackened ground, and a convective chimney rising up out
of the middle, with a rotor about halfway up the chimney, and a hole at
the top of the chimney.

Some quotes:

  We describe the helio-aero-gravity device in an analogy. It may be best
  understood as an upside-down hydroelectric plant with storage reservoir,
  penstock and turbine or an 'inverted solar collector.'

  The idea of harnassing solar energy with the so-called 'chimney effect'
  has evolved in the recent past independently [1-7]... Only Schlaich and
  collaborators [2] have made a breakthrough by building a pilot project at
  Manzanares, Spain. Krisst [5] demonstrated in a 'backyard type' device in
  West Hartford, Connecticut, USA an output of 10 W with a 10 m tall chimney
  on a patch of circular area of radius 3 m. Kulunk, on a microscale basis
  produced an electric power of 0.14 W with a 2 m tall chimney of 3.5 cm radius
  on a patch of area 9 m^2 in Izmit, Turkey. He reported the rotor power as
  0.45 W, the efficiency of the generator as 31%, the temperature and pressure
  difference of air at the two ends of the chimney to be 4 K and 200 Pa...

  Some of the heat is transmitted to the ground. It starts moving back to the
  surface at night, thus forcing the air to continue running the turbine in
  the chimney, of course with reduced output. The output during the night time
  is about one third to one sixth of the output during peak hours while the
  sun remains shining [2.]

  For the purpose of calculating the power that the air turbine extracts from
  the rising air in the chimney we need an expression for the velocity of the
  air v striking the blades of the turbine. Assuming the area swept by the
  rotor be be approximately Ac, the instantaneous rotor power Pr available
  is given by [7]

     Pr = ETAr 1/2 RHOm V^3 Ac   (Ac = pi r^2),

  where ETAr (to be measured) is the power coefficient. The author in [8]
  uses the value of ETAr to be 16/27 based on the Betz limit [10,11] which
  was obtained for a single plane actuator in a free stream situation. Here
  we are solely concerned with the efficiency of the system in which
  mechanical energy can be extracted from the flow by means of propellors
  in the duct-enclosed type flow. Our goal here is to maximize power
  extraction from the system, not the flow. The objective is to load the flow
  enough to extract maximum power, but not enough to choke it off. The
  opimization, in principle, will yield much higher efficiency than Betz
  for an open stream situation. Recently, there have been attempts and claims
  [12] to have achieved an efficiency more than the Betz limit... 

  In order to compute the rotor power we borrow a set of values of the
  temperature measured at the Manzanares experimental station [2] on a
  certain day during its operation. The set of those values is given by:
  Ts = 348 K, Tm = 323 K, Tl = 313 K and Ta = 303 K. The rotor power,
  for the dimension of that system given in Table 1, is 67 kW...

  Table 1. Rotor power production Pr and peak efficiency ETA for a location
  where the insolation is 1 kW/m^2. The Carnot efficiency ETAc is 14.2%,
  except for entry one, which is 13.2%.

  No.    r(m)    R(m)   Hc(m)    Hp(m)  Pr(MW)  ETA(%)

  1      5       122    195      0.25   0.067   0.14
  ...
  9      50      800    1000     0.50   132.1   6.6

  where r is the rotor radius in meters,
        R is the radius of the canopy (collector) in meters,
	Hc is the chimney height in meters,
	Hp is the gap at the opening of the periphery in meters,
	Pr is the rotor power in megawatts, and
	ETA is the efficiency.

  The helio-aero-gravity plant operates on the basis of the difference
  between the temperature of the air at the bottom of the chimney and the
  ambient temperature. This differential essentially creates a draft strong
  enough to turn the turbine installed inside the chimney. The turbine may
  start with a wind speed as low as 3 m/s which may be obtained at a
  temperature differential of around 4-5 K. It is, however, desirable to
  operate the plant at a temperature differential of 20 K...
 
  Some references:

  [1] M. A. K. Lodhi, Solar Desert Chimney, Proc. Int. Sym. Workshop on
  Renewable Energy Sources (Edited by M. K. Bhatti et al) p. 219 (1893);
  Thermal collection and storage of solar energies, Proc. Int. Symp. Workshop
  on Silicon Technology Development (Edited by A. Mufti and T. N. Veziroglu),
  p J1 (1987); Hydrogen City. Intl. J. Hydrogen Energy 12, 783 (1987).

  [2] W. Haaf, K. Friedrich, G. Mayer and J. Schlaich, Solar Chimneys,
  Int. J. of Solar Energy 2, 141 (1984).

  [3] J. Schlaich, Solar Chimneys. Periodica 3, 45 (1983).

  [4] L. B. Mullet, The Solar Chimney, The Energy Group, Dept. of Engineering,
  Univ. of Reading Preprint, pp 1-14 (1983).

  [5] R. J. K. Krisst, Energy Transfer System, Althernative Sources of Energy
  63, 89 (1983).
  
  [6] E. W. Jacob and D. D. Lasier, SERI Preprint/TR-211-1950 (1984).
  
  [7] H. Kulunk, A prototype solar convection chimney operated under izmit
  conditions,. Prod. 76th MICAES (Editied by T. N. Veziroglu), p. 162 (1985).

  [8] F. Kreith. Principles of Heat Transfer. International Textbook Co.,
  pp 286 and 311 (1958).

  [10] A. Betz and Z. Gesamte, Das Maximum der Theroretisch Moglichen
  Ausnutzung des Wurdes durch Windmotorem. Turbine Wesen 17, 320 (1920).

  [11] D. R. Inglis, A windmill theoretical maximum extraction of
  power from the wind. Am. M. Phys. 47, 416 (1979).

  [12] D. R. Inglis, Wind power and other energy options. Univ. of
  Mich. Ann Arbor (1978).

Recall the giant inflatable Goodyear tires and Ronald McDonalds and Wendys? 
My neighbor sells pumpkins at Halloween, and he has a 5' inflatable lighted
pumpkin with a small blower... I wonder if we might make a vertical linear
version of that balloon collector, a three-chambered tubular animal that
looks like a bird from the top? Could it be almost self-supporting, with
some solar heat? Or more than self-supporting, with a hole at the top and
a windmill at the bottom? A 0.004" x 16' wide x 100' long roll of greenhouse
polyethylene film weighs 37 pounds and costs $82...

Hmmm. A +/- 45 deg fixed Winston concentrator?           north
The south side could be transparent,                      ..
the north side could be reflective on both sides,   .   .    .   .
and the sides adjacent to the letters "dn"        .      .dn.       .
might be black poly film with a few pinholes.   .    up   ..   up     .
Cool air would blow up from the bottom and          .   .     .   .
up through the ducts marked "up", and be warmed          south
as it filters through the black plastic and moves back
down to the ground, to enter and warm a building...

It might be 8' wide and 4' thick and 50' tall, using 1200 ft^2 of standard
greenhouse white and black and clear polyethylene film, heat-sealed at the
edges, costing 5 cents/ft^2, ie $60 for the whole thing, five stories tall,
and it might collect the heat equivalent of 4-6 gallons of oil per day, or
make some electricity (why do we have this strange urge to make electricity?)

The base might contain some 55 gallon drums full of water. The top might last
5 years or more, if deflated when the house were warm enough and at night and
in windy times and in summertime onto an 8' roller, or deflated into one place
using internal tethers, somehow. It might say "Eat at Joe's," or some other
custom inspirational message. We could have neighborhood contests, to see how
tall we could make these things. Perhaps we could buy them from Jade Mountain. 

Nick



From an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Sep 13 23:14:01 EDT 1996
Article: 1115 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!an588
From: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 10 Sep 1996 20:45:54 GMT
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Lines: 29
Sender: an588@freenet3.carleton.ca (Catherine Woodgold)
Message-ID: <514k22$evd@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca



I wonder whether painting the sides and bottom of the pool black
would make more difference than some black hose etc.

A pool cover to stop evaporation is very important.  Note safety
concerns re children getting trapped under the cover.

A simple idea:  Just put some little plastic pools on the deck
and fill them with water.  They get hot when the sun shines.
Dump them into the pool just before you go swimming.

An expensive idea:  Build the pool with three parts.
The middle part is a regular pool.  The other two parts are
the same area, but only 4 inches deep, painted black.  When
the sun is not shining, drain some water from the pool so the
shallow parts are empty.  (How to get the warm water to mix
into the rest of the pool, though?)  The shallow parts
could be covered with bubble cover all the time, or never
covered.

Sure, you can put black hoses on your roof.  Why not?
Depending on how you do it it may help cool your house.
Might make it hotter.  Probably won't make much difference.

Cathy
(just my opinion)
TISSATAAFL
Pessimists are more often right, but optimists accomplish more.


From an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Sep 13 23:14:03 EDT 1996
Article: 1116 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!an588
From: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar chimneys for thermal and electrical power
Date: 10 Sep 1996 20:57:34 GMT
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Lines: 20
Sender: an588@freenet3.carleton.ca (Catherine Woodgold)
Message-ID: <514knu$f6a@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
References: <5144ci$4o8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Catherine Woodgold)
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.carleton.ca


Since the air is still hot when it exits the chimney, I guess that
most of the energy is not converted to electricity but remains in
the hot air.

In a desert where land and hot air are cheap, this may still
be a cost-effective way to make electricity;  I don't know.

There are engines that use smallish temperature differences
(tens of degrees I think) to drive them, perhaps converting
more of the heat into mechanical energy.  Baer's diving engine?
An engine that uses bimetallic parts that move when warmed
or cooled?  Or that uses memory metal:  that stuff I forget
the word for that assumes one shape at one temperature and
a different shape at a different temperature.

Anyway, for low-cost electricity where land is plentiful
and cheap materials must be used, the chimney sounds good.

Cathy


From jeffyr@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:14:04 EDT 1996
Article: 1117 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: "Jeffrey Rosen" <jeffyr@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar/wind community
Date: 11 Sep 1996 02:00:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <01bb9f85$31ba99c0$4c72d9ce@#jeffyr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mar-wv3-12.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 10  9:00:27 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.homepower:320 alt.energy.renewable:17981 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1761 alt.solar.thermal:1117

I am begining to research the feasability of developing a residentialy
zoned parcel into an "eco-village" In addition to researching and
implementing the latest technology in design,waste treatment,recycleable
materials etc., I would like to compile as much info on solar energy as I
can in a short amount of time. Among the considerations I am looking at
are: can several dwellings share a large array in such a way that each
family draws upon only the amount of equipment they invested in, are there
more efficient ways to divide the expense, Is a large communal array an
effective way to simplify and beautify individual homes by secluding the
panels on an out of the way lot, ?
      Is anyone aware of similar community efforts?  Also I have heard of a
company which has made a recent break through in the cost of panel
construction which makes solar electricity competitive with grid power, can
anyone point me in the direction of this development? 
   The project will be located in Charles Town WV and as the sub-division
is larger than the current supply of interested participants need This may
also be considered a call for others who may wish to participate and who
are willing to relocate to WV. Likewise any photovoltaic industry people
who see this may feel free to offer your companies services if it seems to
be appropriate. This is not an exclusive subdivision being planned by
wealthy do-gooders so cost is critical and we hope to keep prices in range
with the assistance of Federal and private aid. 

          Jeffrey Rosen
        Claymont Society for Continuous Education
          Charles Town WV
          jeffyr@ix.netcom.com 


From pgosun@aol.com Fri Sep 13 23:14:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1118 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: pgosun@aol.com (PGOSUN)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Rights
Date: 10 Sep 1996 15:12:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <514ei6$nsk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3234515B.3D21@ieee.org>
Reply-To: pgosun@aol.com (PGOSUN)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

You could also call the Boulder Energy Conservation Center at
303-441-3278.  They could certainly put you in touch with the right person
in the city.  We have solar rights laws here.

Pamm


From sylvan@cyberhighway.net Fri Sep 13 23:14:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1119 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cyberhighway.net!user1.cyberhighway.net!sylvan
From: sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 12 Sep 1996 19:06:16 GMT
Organization: Visualize Whirled Peas
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <519mv8$6vs@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: user1.cyberhighway.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

shardson@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>lightweight coil of hose that is durable and lightweight.  I just
>threw it up on my patio cover and hooked it in line.  I now have 900
>feet of hose in the system.  Water entering at 82 degrees came out at
>96 degrees at 2 gpm flow.  The days and nights have been warmer the
>last few days; about 92 and 60.  The pool is now 88F, warmer than when
>the days were 104 and nights 75.  As I add coils I hope to maintain

Are you preventing water flow thru the coil when coil temp is
less than pool temp?  That can make a huge difference...

sdb


From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:14:09 EDT 1996
Article: 1120 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com (Hardison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:25:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <51afjt$d96@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <519mv8$6vs@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca1-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 12  9:06:53 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler) wrote:

>shardson@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>last few days; about 92 and 60.  The pool is now 88F, warmer than when
>>the days were 104 and nights 75.  As I add coils I hope to maintain

>Are you preventing water flow thru the coil when coil temp is
>less than pool temp?  That can make a huge difference...

>sdb

Good point.  Does anyone know of any homebrew plans for making your
own Radio Shackish differential temperature switch circuit for
controlling the bypass valve?



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Sep 13 23:14:11 EDT 1996
Article: 1121 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.electronics,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 13 Sep 1996 08:44:05 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <51bkul$43v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <519mv8$6vs@host-3.cyberhighway.net> <51afjt$d96@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1121 sci.electronics:410 alt.energy.renewable:18051 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:8940

Hardison <SHardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Does anyone know of any homebrew plans for making your own Radio Shackish
>differential temperature switch circuit for controlling the bypass valve?

You might try a Grainger snap-disc thermostat (eg the $6.46 2E247 10 amp
thermostat, which turns on at 130 F and off at 115 F) in a little black box
with a transparent sun-facing cover.

Or a $75 (wholesale) DTT '94 differential thermostat, including power supply,
line cord, box, fuse, switched 110V receptacle and thermistors from Heliotrope
General at (800) 460-3930. Their design uses MSI ICs, and doesn't look like
it's changed much in the last 15 years.

Or a $199 Blue Earth BASIC programmable microcontroller from (800) DIGI-KEY,
http://www.digikey.com, which might do more, eg turn on a whole house fan at
night, during the summer, with a lower temp limit, or blow down some warm air
>from  the peak of an attic through a duct into the house on a sunny winter day,
after opening a return air damper with a $50 2-watt 24 VAC 45 in-oz Honeywell
6161MLB1000 direct-coupled damper actuator motor, or leave that attic floor
damper open, under a transparent south attic roof, for daylighting, with the
peak fan off, during the day, when the house is already warm enough. 

Or you might design and sell a new differential thermostat, starting with
Digi-Key's $7.05 22 microamp PIC16LC72A-04I/SP-ND microchip controller with
on-board 8 bit ADC. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Sep 13 23:14:13 EDT 1996
Article: 1122 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 11 Sep 1996 09:32:03 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <516f0j$mq8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <514k22$evd@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1122 alt.energy.renewable:18052

Cathy Woodgold <an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
 
>I wonder whether painting the sides and bottom of the pool black
>would make more difference than some black hose etc.

We could just dye the water black... :-)

But most of the sun would be absorbed anyway, no?
Here's a quote from Duffie and Beckman (1991), page 652:

  As radiation is transmitted through water, the longer wavelengths are
  absorbed near the surface. Measurements by Nielson (1988) indicate that
  little radiation at lambda > 0.7 micrometers is transmitted through a
  meter of clean water, but over 95% of the radiation in the wavelength
  range 0.3 to 0.6 micrometers is transmitted through this much water.

They also say solar ponds are of the order of 1 to 3 m deep.

Table 2.6.1 of the book shows that about 40% of the energy in the terrestrial
solar spectrum has wavelengths < 0.7 micrometers. And an ordinary pool paint
might reflect half of the sun, and that reflection has to go back out of the
water again, giving the water a second chance to absorb it on the way out, so
maybe only 0.4x0.95x0.5x0.95 = 18% of the incoming solar energy escapes from
the pool, ignoring the 5% water-air reflections... 

>An expensive idea:  Build the pool with three parts.

Hmmm.

>The middle part is a regular pool. The other two parts are the same area,

Why the same area? Vot is the goal here?

>but only 4 inches deep, painted black.

Why 4 inches deep? Why not dark green, which can look very dark to the sun,
but bright to the eye, which is most sensitive to yellowish green? Why does
the Lord permit such Suffering on Earth, if He is Omnipotent? What is Truth?

>When the sun is not shining, drain some water from the pool so the
>shallow parts are empty.

To avoid losing heat at night...

>(How to get the warm water to mix into the rest of the pool, though?)

The filter pump?

>The shallow parts could be covered with bubble cover all the time, or never
>covered.

Never seems simpler. If the shallow parts have some thermal mass (how much?),
and they are only covered with water once in a while (how often?) to remove
most of the collected and stored solar heat, evaporation loss won't be a lot.
How often should we spray a roof?
 
A square foot of 4" thick concrete weighing 48 pounds with a specific heat of
0.16 Btu/F and a thermal capacity of 8 Btu/F-ft^2 absorbing 300 Btu/hr of sun
might heat up 40 F in an hour, if it lost no heat to the to the air or the
ground. Suppose we covered it with 8 pounds (one gallon) of water per hour,
raising the water temp by something like 30 F. How long would the water have
to sit on the concrete, each hour? Suppose the main thermal resistance is
the concrete, at about 0.2/inch, ie about 0.4 for half the slab thickness.
We want to transfer about 300 Btu through a US R-value of 0.4 in t hours, with
an average temperature difference of 10 F? So, Ohm's law for heatflow says
U = t delta T A/R, ie 300 = t (10) 1/0.4, so t = 12 hours. Too long. What
to do? Add lots of steel to the concrete to raise the thermal conductivity?

Flood it more often, using less water each time, to remove the heat from
the surface, before it has a chance to propagate into the concrete? This
means more evaporation loss... A less porous surface like tile would help.

Some people say thin-walled 4" PVC sewer pipe costs less than the volume of
concrete it displaces (but doesn't the slab have to be thicker, if it has
4" pipes inside?) Maybe the water should flow through pipes in the slab.
Maybe smaller pipes, eg polyethylene tubing, just inside a masonry wall
to the north of the pool, if we want to use the pool in the winter.

Most pools have a shallow part already, a skirt, about 6' wide, with almost
the same area as a 24' x 32' pool surface. Make it thinner, of reinforced
concrete? Hard to do for existing pools. Paint the skirt darker, and put some
PVC pipe with some holes in it around the outer perimeter, and add a solenoid
valve and controls to the filter pump to divert the flow to intermittently
wash the skirt with some pool water, if the pool were too cool and the skirt
were warm, washing dried Cool-Aid, cookie crumbs, etc., into the pool along
with the warm water. 

We might wash the skirt during the day to keep it cooler for feet, and
wash it at night sometimes, if the pool got too warm, automatically.

Nick



From noring@netcom.com Fri Sep 13 23:14:14 EDT 1996
Article: 1123 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.physics.fusion,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy.hydrogen,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.fusion
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.iag.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!netcom.com!noring
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Subject: Re: QUESTION: Progress in Fusion
Message-ID: <noringDxoK8D.85E@netcom.com>
Followup-To: sci.energy
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <322F98CC.53AE@ozemail.com.au> <32308DD7.6B4E@hydro.on.ca> <mwgoodman-0709962356180001@ppp4-2.igc.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:53:01 GMT
Lines: 126
Sender: noring@netcom10.netcom.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:54453 sci.physics.fusion:28172 alt.energy.renewable:18059 sci.energy.hydrogen:4823 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1763 alt.solar.thermal:1123 alt.fusion:1

[followup discussion, if any, set to sci.energy]

In article mwgoodman@igc.apc.org (Mark W. Goodman) writes:

>My view of fusion power has long been that while it may be technically
>feasible, the technology will be so complicated -- orders of magnitude
>greater than fission reactors -- that the supposedly "free" fuel becomes
>quite expensive.  I doubt that fusion will ever be economically
>competitive with solar-derived renewables (photovoltaics, wind, biomass).

Having worked at LLNL, and having the honor of helping out with the design
of the NIF (laser fusion), plus happening to be in the division where the
magnetic fusion people reside, I've come to the same conclusion.

There is no way under the sun that the two fusion paradigms now being
developed, laser fusion and magnetic (Tokamak) fusion will ever be
practical.  They will be so unbelievably complex that the economics of
running them will price them out of even the future energy market when
energy prices will be much higher assuming fossil fuels start running out
and no other alternatives are found (though as I'll write below, solar is
knocking on the door).

Yet DOE keeps pouring money into these two technologies, rather than putting
the money into looking at alternative ways to achieve fusion (and I'm not
talking necessarily about cold fusion).  My Ph.D. advisor, for example,
told me an idea 16 years ago for a fusion reactor involving molten lithium --
it was so simple it was amazing (I can't say if it'd really work, though).
He told a nuclear physicist friend, who was fairly well-known many years ago
in the magnetic fusion are, about his idea, and his friend could not think of
any reason why it would *not* work (so the idea had some soundness to it, at
least at first glance.)  But the answer back essentially was, "but we're
making progress on magnetic fusion, and that's the direction we're going --
no need to look at other ideas."  Clearly a lemming attitude, and one which
has blinded the entire fusion program for the last 40 years.  Once these
fusion approaches became institutionalized (at Princeton, LLNL, and
elsewhere), they became a juggernaut with incredible inertia but with little
progress, as history has shown.  "Fusion is just 40 years away" -- they
told Congress 40 years ago, and they still say it today -- "just 40 years
off".  Rivers and rivers of money have simply disappeared into a cesspool.

It would not surprise me if the Government had taken a different approach and
put the emphasis on exploring for other ways to achieve fusion rather than
*prematurely* going with magnetic fusion starting in the 1950's (and later
adding laser fusion), that we just might have working and economical fusion
reactors today and that these reactors may radically be quite different than
what is now being "developed".

Because of my extensive solar thermal electric background (e.g., worked for
Sandia Livermore while they were testing Solar One at Barstow), I believe
that had the Federal Government took all the money they spent on fusion up
to now, and instead invested it in solar thermal/photovoltaic research, that
we'd now be generating most of our nation's electric power from the deserts
of Nevada, California, Arizona and Utah (a diddly-squat 5000-10000 sq. miles
of molten-salt receiver solar thermal powerplants would easily accomplish
that -- you should get about 100 MWe per square mile of land area, including
significant nighttime power from molten salt storage capacity -- and though
10000 sq. miles seems huge, compared to the total desert areas in the South-
West U.S. is trivial -- there's a lot of land in the U.S. deserts -- it will
prove to be our greatest resource.)

Heck, I've seen the economic numbers from even conservative estimates, that
if the Federal government takes all the money they will invest the next 20
years into laser and magnetic fusion and uses it instead to build the mass
production manufacturing facilities for building large numbers of state-of-
the-art heliostats (by the far the biggest cost in solar thermal plants),
that we'd see within one year ground breaking by industry for several
gigawatt-sized solar plants in southern Nevada because they will clearly be
economical.  Solar electric power generation is somewhat close to economical
right now (the *huge* capital investment to build the facilities to mass
produce heliostats in a large enough capacity to reduce costs enough is about
the only thing holding solar back at this time), and this "give-away" program
(though as a libertarian I find it distasteful, but if a give-away is to be
done, it's better than fusion) will essentially solve the future energy
needs in this country well into the 21st century (provided we evolve into
an electric-based energy system.)

And even if my estimates of solar thermal economics are off, it certainly
won't be Tokamak or Laser Fusion that will ever solve our coming energy
problems!  The money is much better spent into further reducing the cost of
solar power technologies (both thermal and photovoltaic) since they are so
close now and whose environmental impact will be a lot less (the fusion people
don't talk much about the radioactive by-products of their process, nor what
would happen in the case of an accident or terrorist attack!)  Investing it
in ultra-complex fusion concepts to keep our nuclear physicists employed, and
because they can lobby better than the solar supporters is stupid and an
egregious waste of taxpayer's money.

At some future time I may write about the NIF (laser fusion), a technically
cool technology, but wholly impractial for power production, and which should
not be built at all (I'm not sure if it has been mothballed or if it is still
in the running -- anybody know?).  It is a boondoggle, whose primary purpose
is to be a very expensive tool for continuing nuclear weapons research (and
to "reward" the management at LLNL for their well-done work since the 1950's
in building nuclear weapons), particularly to understand better the various
physics effects involved with the entire fusion process for thermonuclear
devices.  Such research, however, can be done by other less expensive ways
including more advanced simulation.  The billion dollars plus to build the
NIF could instead be used to build bigger and faster computers.  Enough said
on that for now.  Can you imagine the power of a $500 million computer?

Oh, and I might write up on the other DOE boondoggle as well, the Yucca
Mountain Project.  I worked for it for a short time, and saw things that
would curl your hair (I haven't decided whether or not to tell all, since I
know things that are very, well, er, should we say, sensitive.)  If I don't
say anything more on either NIF or Yucca Mountain, assume that some DOE
types have somehow muzzled me.  After all, I am covered under various types
of non-disclosure and security arrangements, and they might be able to twist
them enough to silence me.  We'll see.  I know I will have succeeded with
this post if I do get a phone call or visit from DOE people.

Anyway, it's amazing how DOE has so screwed up energy research and nuclear
waste disposal in this country.  I'll be the first one to clap when DOE is
dismantled since it has proven to serve no useful purpose to properly advance
energy research nor to solve our coming future energy problems.  DOE is a
bureaucratic nightmare that sucks at the public trough, and which you can't
fully appreciate until you've worked for the National Labs for 15 years as I
have.  If others reading this have DOE stories to tell, do share them.  It's
amazing how political and bureaucratic that organization is.

Jon Noring

-- 
OmniMedia Electronic Books | URL:  http://www.awa.com/library/omnimedia
9671 S. 1600 West St.      | Anonymous FTP:
South Jordan, UT 84095     | ftp.awa.com  /pub/softlock/pc/products/OmniMedia
801-253-4037               | E-mail:  omnimedia@netcom.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Join the Electronic Books Mailing List (EBOOK-List) Today!  Just send e-mail
to majordomo@aros.net, and put the following line in the body of the message:
     subscribe ebook-list     


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Sep 13 23:14:16 EDT 1996
Article: 1124 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!metro.atlanta.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 11 Sep 1996 09:58:44 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <516gik$n7h@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Steve <shardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
 
>I found a way to handle the hose better.  Just use a hot melt glue gun
>and 500 feet of hose to glue a 6 foot diameter flat coil.

28 ft^2? How much does the hose cost? What next? Lay a piece of plywood on
the ground with some 1" beadboard impaled on a few headless nails to guide
the hose, and make a spaced rectangular coil with a 3" gap between tubes, and
some sort of thin concrete fill, with chicken wire on both sides, to cast
sections of a freestanding north wall, with polyethylene film glazing?

>I now have 900 feet of hose in the system.

51 ft^2 of solar collector?

>Water entering at 82 degrees came out at 96 degrees at 2 gpm flow.

Sounds like (96 F - 82 F)(8 lb/g)(2 g/m)(60 m/hr) = 13,440 Btu/hr 
out of 300 Btu/ft^2/hr x 51 ft^2 = 15,300 Btu/hr in full sun.
88% efficient, as a solar collector! :-)

>As I add coils I hope to maintain the temperature thorugh October.

This might work very well with a good pool cover.

Nick



From mcummins@e-tex.com Fri Sep 13 23:14:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1125 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.netone.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.e-tex.com!news
From: mcummins@e-tex.com (user3)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: no-cost heating & cooling
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:14:39 -0500
Organization: East Texas Internet
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <MPG.ca38ab74409c6d5989680@news.e-tex.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial41a.e-tex.com
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v1.01 (30 Day Trial)

I am currently involved in a research project to determine the efficacy 
of geothermal heating and cooling for residential applications.  My 
background is in law/business.  I have read significant theoretical 
discussions regarding solar, geothermal, and wind power applications. I 
have been unable to locate any reports of practical applications and the 
results.  Does anyone have any personal experience which they would share 
concerning methods of implementation, problems encountered, and results 
obtained?   
-- 
Michael W. Cummins
mcummins@e-tex.com

Researching new methods to cut our dependence on 
fossil fuels.


From shardson@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 14 13:20:01 EDT 1996
Article: 1126 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: shardson@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:01:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca2-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 11  3:43:07 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

SHardson@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>jbullard@uoguelph.ca (James A Bullard) wrote:

>>I have an inground 14 X 28 foot swimming pool that refuses to stay above 
>>70 except in the hot August months.  Is there a way to run the water 
>>through black pipes on the roof and down to the pool?  How many feet of 
>>pipe?  How big a pump?
>>Any ideas?
>>James

>Stay tuned.
>I'm playing with the same idea right now.  I have a 11X23 foot pool
>that is hovering at 83F with a cheap bubble pool cover and 400 feet of
>black 1/2" hose laid flat on top of a patio cover. (Don't try this
>with one big long 400 foot length!  Cut it in 50 ft sections and use
>connectors for that sort of hose.)  I am tapping the high pressure
>side of the pool pump that runs a pressure operated pool sweeper, and
>returning to the low pressure side returning to the pool.  I have a
>in-line screen filter (like you find for drip irrigation) and a pvc
>ball valve set so about 1 gpm runs through the hose system.

>Result?  With the nights dropping into the 50s and days around 85, I
>think that the 83F I am sustaining now is pretty good.  But I suspect
>that the pool cover is doing a lot more than the black hose.  This
>weekend I will take temperatures exiting the hose and report back.  I
>probably need about 8 times more hose to do any real good.

>Steve

I found a way to handle the hose better.  Just use a hot melt glue gun
and 500 feet of hose to glue a 6 foot diameter flat coil.  Use about
an inch of hot melt glue every 4 or 5 inches.  The result is a
lightweight coil of hose that is durable and lightweight.  I just
threw it up on my patio cover and hooked it in line.  I now have 900
feet of hose in the system.  Water entering at 82 degrees came out at
96 degrees at 2 gpm flow.  The days and nights have been warmer the
last few days; about 92 and 60.  The pool is now 88F, warmer than when
the days were 104 and nights 75.  As I add coils I hope to maintain
the temperature thorugh October.

STeve



From stevie2@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 15 10:48:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1127 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Steve Segrest <stevie2@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Who's Who In Renewable Energy
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:58:29 -0400
Organization: Sterling Energy
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <323AE435.5755@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: atl-ga10-05.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 14 12:03:36 PM CDT 1996
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)

For a free listing of you and your Company in "Who's Who In Renewable
Energy" visit the website
http://www.pic.net/~stevie2/pages/contacts.html

NEW:  We have added how to access 12 Renewable Energy Related NewGroups
in Who's Who.

Brought To You By
Grass Roots Support For Clean Energy
A Non-Profit Organization


From shardson@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 15 10:48:19 EDT 1996
Article: 1128 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: shardson@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:12:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <518fjm$lk0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <516gik$n7h@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca1-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 12  2:54:30 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Steve <shardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
...... 500 feet of hose to glue a 6 foot diameter flat coil.

>28 ft^2? How much does the hose cost?
$30 per 6ft diameter coil plus $10 worth of hot melt;  and 4 hours of
my time.   Dang, how cheap do you want?

>. . .freestanding north wall, with polyethylene film glazing?
This assumes you have the funds and space for a north wall, of course.
I don't have ground level sun exposure that I can use.   How about a
comment on pulling heat from a hot attic?  How big a radiator?  Any
ideas?

>51 ft^2 of solar collector?

>>Water entering at 82 degrees came out at 96 degrees at 2 gpm flow.

>Sounds like (96 F - 82 F)(8 lb/g)(2 g/m)(60 m/hr) = 13,440 Btu/hr 
>out of 300 Btu/ft^2/hr x 51 ft^2 = 15,300 Btu/hr in full sun.
>88% efficient, as a solar collector! :-)
I guess I should have re-measured the flow rate after the last 500
feet add-on.  And isn't 8lbs/gal for water a bit high?  Anyway, what
efficiency can a simple open air collector hope to get on a windless
day in full sun?

>>As I add coils I hope to maintain the temperature thorugh October.

>This might work very well with a good pool cover.


>Nick





From aab@cichlid.com Wed Sep 25 13:26:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1129 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news4.agis.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!noos.hooked.net!news.scruz.net!news.cichlid.com!not-for-mail
From: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 12 Sep 1996 12:37:34 -0700
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <519opu$mtc@loach.cichlid.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <511fk0$k7p@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: loach.cichlid.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1129 alt.energy.renewable:18095 alt.architecture.alternative:8011

Nick Pine writes:

>John W. Moffett <j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>I live in New Jersey with a well shaded pool.  Have nice sunny roof and 
>>would like to use solar to warm up the pool by 10 degrees.

>How about floating two dozen $16 2' x 8' x 2" thick pieces of Styrofoam on the
>pool, 

<actual heater idea deleted, good one Nick!>

An idea for insulating pools is to float styrofoam spheres (1-2 inches
in diameter or so, a couple of spheres deep). That way you insulate and can 
still swim without messing with the insulation. I don't know if styrofoam 
popcorn used for packing would work -- might saturate and sink but worth 
experimenting with outside the pool perhaps.

Even air filled plastic balls would help insulate and allow pool use.

Good luck.
-- 
Best regards,
Andy Burgess
aab@cichlid.com


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1130 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!newshost.convex.com!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 12 Sep 1996 22:12:48 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <51afv0$3d3@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <511fk0$k7p@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <519opu$mtc@loach.cichlid.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1130 alt.energy.renewable:18101 alt.architecture.alternative:8017

Andy Burgess <aab@cichlid.com> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrotes about:
 
>>...floating 2 dozen $16 2' x 8' x 2" thick pieces of Styrofoam on the pool, 

Oops. That shoulda been 2 dozen $8 2' x 8' x 2" thick pieces of Styrofoam.
Still a lot of stuff to get out of the way when you want to go for a swim.

><actual heater idea deleted, good one Nick!>

Thank you :-)

>An idea for insulating pools is to float styrofoam spheres (1-2 inches
>in diameter or so, a couple of spheres deep). That way you insulate and can 
>still swim without messing with the insulation.

You can? Hmmm. Underwater, maybe.

>I don't know if styrofoam popcorn used for packing would work -- might
>saturate and sink but worth experimenting with outside the pool perhaps.

I think that popcorn is more like beadboard than Styrofoam, 
ie, white, not blue or pink. Oh wait, I've seen pink...
Would a lot of kids probably swallow the popcorn and drown?

>Even air filled plastic balls would help insulate and allow pool use.

One place I worked used ping-pong balls to cover their IC boiling bath.

How about putting the popcorn in a heat-sealed polyethylene film pillow? 

Or filling the pillow with soap bubbles, and squeezing them out through
a filter to break them down into 200 times less liquid by volume when
the pillow is rolled up?

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1131 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!sun-net.ncren.net!rutgers!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy
Subject: Solar chimney electrical output
Date: 16 Sep 1996 12:48:37 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <51k0d5$ju8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: Vot am I doink wrong here?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1131 alt.energy.renewable:18121 sci.energy:54541

10 TM=323'maximum temperature of air (K)
20 RHOM=1.2929*273/TM'air density at max temp (kg/m^3)
30 TA=302'ambient temp (K)
40 RHOA=1.2929*273/TA'air density at ambient temp (kg/m^3)
50 K=.025334'thermal conductivity of air (W/m-K)
60 G=9.8'acceleration of gravity (m/s^2)
70 CP=1012!'specific heat of air at constant pressure (J/kg-K)
80 ALPHA=.0000212'thermal diffusivity of air (m^2/s)
90 FRHO=(RHOM^8)/(RHOA^12)*(K^15)*(G^15)
100 FRHO=(FRHO/(ALPHA^5)/(CP^10)/(CP^5))^(1/11)'density factor
110 TL=313'avg temp of air under the canopy (K)
120 TS=348'surface temperature of ground under canopy (K)
130 FT=((TS-TL)/TA)^(15/11)'temperature factor
140 RR=5'rotor radius (meters)
150 RC=122'canopy radius (meters)
160 HC=195'chimney height (meters)
170 HP=.25'gap of canopy opening at the periphery (meters)
180 FG=RR^(16/11)*RC^(15/11)*HC^(15/11)/(HP^(12/11))'geometry factor
190 BIGBRACKET=FRHO*FT*FG'from equation 30 in paper
200 ETAR=16/27'rotor power coefficient (assumed to be Betz limit)
210 PR=.018*ETAR*BIGBRACKET'rotor power in watts from eqn 30
220 PRINT PR

    35.35902, ie 35 watts vs 67 kW in line 1 of Table 1 of Lodhi's paper...

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1132 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!news.ucdavis.edu!csus.edu!newshub.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 12 Sep 1996 10:19:32 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <51965k$74@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <50hqas$osr@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca> <515u2r$84v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <516gik$n7h@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <518fjm$lk0@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

<shardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>>Steve <shardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
 
>...... 500 feet of hose to glue a 6 foot diameter flat coil.

>>28 ft^2? How much does the hose cost?

>$30 per 6ft diameter coil

6 cents/foot...?

>plus $10 worth of hot melt;  and 4 hours of my time.

Another $14 :-) Hmmm. $44/28 ft^2 = 1.57/ft^2. Not bad, but...

>Dang, how cheap do you want?

I still like the south roof idea. 10 cents/ft^2 for the two layers of poly
film, another 75 cents/linear foot for the extrusion clamps to hold it (or
maybe some cheaper 1x3s or aluminum strips with screws), and another $1/ft
for the 1 1/2" PVC pipe along the top edge? $60 + $75 + $30 = $165 for a
30' long x 20' slant height 600 ft^2 roof, ie 28 cents/ft^2?
  
>>. . .freestanding north wall, with polyethylene film glazing?

>This assumes you have the funds and space for a north wall, of course.

Funds may be easy, vs. space. That wall might cost 10 cents/ft^2 for the
beadboard back, another 10 cents/ft^2 for the concrete, another 10 cents
for the chicken wire, 18 cents for the tubing on 4" centers and 5 cents
or so for the poly film cover, ie 43 cents/ft^2, not counting labor. More
than the roof, but swimming pools often need walls around them anyway.
 
>How about a comment on pulling heat from a hot attic?

Good idea. Especially if you make the south roof transparent, like mine. Ed
Palmer of Solar Attic in Minnesota (612) 441-3440 sells something like this
for use with an ordinary attic. You might start with a used auto radiator
with its attached 12 V fan, like the $35 1984 Dodge Omni radiator in my
living room floor. Ed charges more than that for his version, $1500 or so 
in the tax credit era, $500 or so now :-)

Or you might use a duct heat exchanger like the $139 all-copper 2' x 2'
SHW 2347 unit made by Magic Aire, which transfers 45K Btu/hour between
125 F water and 68 F air, ie about 800 Btu/hr-F at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1"
H20 air pressure drop. The $12 Chinese-made Holmes (800)-5-HOLMES 20" 
box fan moves about 1000 cfm, whilst consuming about 100 W. 

>How big a radiator? 

How big an attic? How big a pool? Where I live, a 24'x32'x6' deep pool at
72 F might lose 24(72-36)768ft^2/R10 = 66K Btu/day of heat through its
floating 2" Styrofoam cover, another 24(72-45)672ft^2/R10 = 44K Btu from its
R10 sides, if any, to the warmer ground, and another 24(72-55)768/R10 = 31K
through its uninsulated bottom, ie 141K Btu/day in December. A 150 ft^2 $50
solar collector could keep it heated in December, if it were mostly covered.

>>>Water entering at 82 degrees came out at 96 degrees at 2 gpm flow.
>
>>Sounds like (96 F - 82 F)(8 lb/g)(2 g/m)(60 m/hr) = 13,440 Btu/hr 
>>out of 300 Btu/ft^2/hr x 51 ft^2 = 15,300 Btu/hr in full sun.
>>88% efficient, as a solar collector! :-)

>...isn't 8lbs/gal for water a bit high?

Heavy water.

8 is a nice binary number, no? As is 64 pounds for a cubic foot.

>Anyway, what efficiency can a simple open air collector hope
>to get on a windless day in full sun?

It can hope for 100%, or more, if the air is warmer :-)

Nick



From jimfrizz@iol.ie Wed Sep 25 13:26:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1133 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!usenet
From: jimfrizz@iol.ie (Seamus)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:59:37 GMT
Organization: Chaotic.
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <323bc782.59382989@news.iol.ie>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <511fk0$k7p@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <519opu$mtc@loach.cichlid.com>
Reply-To: jimfrizz@iol.ie
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-015.waterford.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1133 alt.energy.renewable:18135 alt.architecture.alternative:8043

aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess)  gave  that:

>Nick Pine writes:
>
>>John W. Moffett <j.w.moffett@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>I live in New Jersey with a well shaded pool.  Have nice sunny roof and 
>>>would like to use solar to warm up the pool by 10 degrees.
>
>>How about floating two dozen $16 2' x 8' x 2" thick pieces of Styrofoam on the
>>pool, 
>
><actual heater idea deleted, good one Nick!>
>
>An idea for insulating pools is to float styrofoam spheres (1-2 inches
>in diameter or so, a couple of spheres deep). That way you insulate and can 
>still swim without messing with the insulation. I don't know if styrofoam 
>popcorn used for packing would work -- might saturate and sink but worth 
>experimenting with outside the pool perhaps.
>
>Even air filled plastic balls would help insulate and allow pool use.
>
>Good luck.
>-- 
	Yes, I found that it sinks or becomes sticky, saturated, heavy
and obnoxious to handle.(In the pool.)
	Floating bubble plastic from an elevating counterpoised
roller, with balancers to auto spread the sheet on the surface, works
and stops heat loss by evaporation dead. The bubble plastic can be
recycled from commercial sources and NOT joined by sticky tape as it
degrades, but coarsely sewn with a manmade yarn such as agricultural
bale binder twine. This works. Bear in mind that if the pool is not
shaded or indoor, then these materials are UV degradable.
	This cover is manually workable by one ordinary unfit person
in under a minute.

Best regards, Jim


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1134 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.photovoltaic
Subject: Re: solar chimneys for thermal and electrical power
Date: 18 Sep 1996 09:43:05 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <51ou99$cnq@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <5144ci$4o8@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <514knu$f6a@freenet-news.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1134 alt.energy.renewable:18142 sci.energy:54566 alt.architecture.alternative:8047 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1781

Catherine Woodgold <an588@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
 
>Since the air is still hot when it exits the chimney, I guess that
>most of the energy is not converted to electricity but remains in the hot air.

Looks that way...

Page 185 of M A K Madhi's (b5mak2ttacs.ttu.edu) "Helio-aero-gravity electric
power production at low cost" paper (pp 183-189 in Renewable Energy, Vol 2,
No. 2, 1992) says a chimney of height Hc having air at the top and bottom at
temperatures and densities Tt, Tb, Rhot and Rohb would have a pressure
difference dP = 1/2 Rhob v^2, (equation 10) where v = sqrt(2/Rohb dP) and
dP =(Rhot-Rhob)gHc (12) and Rhot Tt = Rhob Tb (14) so v^2 = 2(Tb-Ta)/Ta gHc
or, rewritten, v = sqrt(2gHc(Tb-Ta)/Ta), reminiscent of the empirical chimney
formula cfm = 16.6 Av sqrt(hdT), in English units.

Does this mean that if we could somehow heat ambient 25 C (77 F) air to 55 C
(131 F) in, say a 6 m (20') chimney, we would have an air velocity in the
chimney of sqrt(2 9.8 6 30/(25+273)) = 3.44 m/s or 8.3 mph, with a power
density of 25 watts/m^2, using Paul Gipe's formula P/A = 0.6125 S^3,
where S is in m/s?

A 50' chimney heating 30 F air to 130 F might make sqrt(2 9.8 15.24 56/272)
= 7.82 m/s with a power density of 292 W/m^2...

A +/- 45 deg fixed Winston concentrator?                north
The south side could be transparent,                      ..
the north side could be reflective on both sides,   .   .    .   .
and the sides adjacent to the letters "dn"        .      .dn.       .
might be black poly film or shadecloth with     .    up   ..   up     .
pinholes. Cool air might come up from the bottom    .   .     .   .
through the ducts marked "up", and be warmed as          south
it filters through the black plastic and moves out the top,
or it might move back down to the ground, to enter and warm a building...

It might be 8' wide and 4' thick and 50' tall, using 1200 ft^2 of standard
greenhouse white and black and clear polyethylene film, heat-sealed at the
edges, costing 5 cents/ft^2, ie $60 for the whole thing, five stories tall,
and it might collect the heat equivalent of 4-6 gallons of oil per day, or
make some electricity.

How much solar aperture is required to heat 3.44 m^3/s of air 30 C? I'm not
used to metric units. Hmmm. Air weighs about 1 kg/m^3, with a specific heat
of about 1 kJ/kgC, so that's about 3.44 kJ/s or 3400 watts or 3 m^2, to make
25 watts, with an efficiency of about 0.7%, or 0.4% if the Betz limit applies.
The 50' version would need at least 8 m^2 or 80 ft^2 of solar aperture.
Seems reasonable. Could the windmill be at the bottom?

Nick



From guss@digital.net Wed Sep 25 13:26:35 EDT 1996
Article: 1135 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!msunews!newaygo-news!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!ddi2.digital.net!pc
From: guss@digital.net (Guss Wilder)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating - lots of questiions
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 23:11:47 GMT
Organization: FLORIDA ONLINE, Florida's Premier Internet Provider
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <51fe7v$6nv@ddi2.digital.net>
References: <01bb9c2c$f1de6a80$62070ccf@Psandyb>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm14_10.digital.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2

In article <01bb9c2c$f1de6a80$62070ccf@Psandyb>, "SandyB" <sandyb@aloha.net> wrote:
>I went to the local fair and was intriqued by the solar hot water guys
>display. 
>My questions??  Is it worth it?  Are they trouble free?
>
Based on my experience with two houses that had solar hot water I would say 
that they are not worth it due to ongoing maintenance costs.  Energy costs in 
your area, however, may be much higher than the 8 cents/kwh in my area and 
you may gain greater benefits.  You probably do not suffer the freeze damage 
problems that happen in many areas either.
In your cost calculations, remember that lightning may strike the electronics, 
especially on roof mounted units, and it's not cheap to replace.  Also, the 
pumps wear out.  Then too, when tanks wear out, you will have a much more 
expensive tank to replace.  It is also hard to find competent repair people.  
Most of the big plumbing shops in my area (Fla.) stopped working on them 
because of user dissatisfaction, and it is only expensive (what I call 
"specialty botique") places that work on them.  Ask several reputable plumbing 
places in your area about it before making the investment.  Get prices on 
replacing the individual components too, so you will know what to expect.


From chuckd2836@aol.com Wed Sep 25 13:26:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1136 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: chuckd2836@aol.com (ChuckD2836)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Pool Heating
Date: 15 Sep 1996 09:41:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <51h12n$ckl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: chuckd2836@aol.com (ChuckD2836)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

This is just a thought, but has anyone ever thought of maybe using a
parabolic dish to focus the sun on some sort of heat exchanger and run the
pool water through it? Would seem to me a more aggressive way to heat your
pool quickly.
Have no idea on the particulars involved, just remember as a kid seeing
something in popular science about cooking with the sun. 
And as far as following the sun through the day maybe using an equitorial
mount from a telescope or building your own type of mount.
This would involve a bit more cost but wouldnt you be able to raise the
water temperture farther and faster?
Chuck Drake


From dcj@atl.mindspring.com Wed Sep 25 13:26:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1137 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!jolt.pagesat.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!usenet
From: dcj@atl.mindspring.com (Dale C. Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: help please - black tiles on roof- can this heat water
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:09:05 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <51h2sq$kh0@camel3.mindspring.com>
References: <323CDF08.3ADE@itl.net>
Reply-To: dcj@atl.mindspring.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: user-168-121-109-65.dialup.mindspring.com
X-Server-Date: 15 Sep 1996 14:12:42 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Andrew & Jane Renouf <renouf@itl.net> wrote:

>I have a property with a black  roof constructed of thin slate.   On 
>sunny days the whole loft space above the house heats up to very high 
>temperatures.  (You can't stay up there for any length of time).

<snip>

>I am located just south of Great Britain.   The roof is is quite large so 
>the size of the "collector" could be very large ( 10 meters by 6 
>meters)  to make up for the poor efficiency.    

>Any help welcome.

>- Andrew Renouf

Not being rude, but isn't it exceedingly wet just south of Great
Britain?

-- dcj@mindspring.com



From renouf@itl.net Wed Sep 25 13:26:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1138 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!news.insnet.net!insnet.net!news.itl.net!newsmaster@olympus.itl.net
From: Andrew & Jane Renouf <renouf@itl.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: help please - black tiles on roof- can this heat water
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:00:56 -0700
Organization: Supernet
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <323CDF08.3ADE@itl.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup081.itl.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)

I have a property with a black  roof constructed of thin slate.   On 
sunny days the whole loft space above the house heats up to very high 
temperatures.  (You can't stay up there for any length of time).

I was thinking  of running a long length of copper pipe directly behind 
the slates and placing insulation behind the copper pipe.

What efficiency would I get ?  How close should the copper pipes be?  I 
know efficiency would be very low,  however, we are only talking about 
the cost of the copper pipe.   (I am insulating the roof anyway as part 
of a loft conversion).

can anybody work out if it is likely to be cost effective ?

The angle of the roof is 42 degrees with a south facing aspect.

I am located just south of Great Britain.   The roof is is quite large so 
the size of the "collector" could be very large ( 10 meters by 6 
meters)  to make up for the poor efficiency.    

Any help welcome.

- Andrew Renouf


From r.bahm@ieee.org Wed Sep 25 13:26:39 EDT 1996
Article: 1139 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Raymond Bahm <r.bahm@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: no-cost heating & cooling
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:18:57 -0600
Organization: Raymond J. Bahm and Associates
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <323E26B1.6D58@ieee.org>
References: <MPG.ca38ab74409c6d5989680@news.e-tex.com>
Reply-To: r.bahm@ieee.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmd24.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I)
To: user3 <mcummins@e-tex.com>

user3 wrote:
> 

>  Does anyone have any personal experience which they would share
> concerning methods of implementation, problems encountered, and results
> obtained?
> --
This is not personal, but I have heard reports about several projects
of greatly differing sizes.  The Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory has
drilled a borehole near their facility in Northern New Mexico and done
research on the heated water and steam which returns when water is
pumped
down the hole.  You might find some reports in their library.

I seem to recall that the most common problem with geothermal systems
is the disolved minerals which precipitate out in the piping of the
systems, ultimately clogging things.
-- 
Ray Bahm  --  r.bahm@ieee.org


From cb@eden.com Wed Sep 25 13:26:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1140 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.eden.com!usenet
From: cb@eden.com (Corey Breed)
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.neutopia,alt.society.paradigms,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.society.steve-lane,alt.society.transatl-class.discussion,alt.society.transatl-class.rules,alt.society.underwear,alt.soft-sys.corel.draw,alt.soft-sys.corel.misc,alt.soft-sys.tooltalk,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solaris.x86,alt.soulmates,alt.sources
Subject: --MAKE MONEY BY GOING TO AUCTIONS!--
Date: 19 Sep 1996 23:43:16 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <51slqk$lv6@boris.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: net-3-100.austin.eden.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.society.labor-unions:3184 alt.society.mental-health:4620 alt.society.neutopia:28399 alt.society.paradigms:828 alt.society.resistance:5816 alt.society.revolution:21416 alt.society.sovereign:17177 alt.society.steve-lane:262 alt.society.transatl-class.discussion:21 alt.society.transatl-class.rules:18 alt.society.underwear:8342 alt.soft-sys.corel.draw:10011 alt.soft-sys.corel.misc:823 alt.soft-sys.tooltalk:871 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1783 alt.solar.thermal:1140 alt.solaris.x86:924 alt.sources:11551

Ads on television and in newspapers try to sell information on how to 
find auctions for as much as $20(U.S.) or more memorably $19.95(U.S.).  
I am willing to give you the same information for $5.00 (U.S.).  This is 
not an extravagent amount compared to the thousands you can save at 
gov't and municipal auctions.  Maybe you could be one of the people that 
finds a new Mercedes for a couple of hundred dollars.  Give it a try, it 
can be fun and profitable.

Send $5.00 in check or money order to:

	R. C. Breed
	1221 S. Congress #833
	Austin, Tx. 78704

Please include your e-mail address.  If you do not have one give your 
snail mail address.  E-mail orders will be processed more quickly.



From paulb@leia.ursinus.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1141 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!pornstorm.eit.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.ursinus.edu!not-for-mail
From: paulb@leia.ursinus.edu (Paul Bashus)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Closet Spreadsheet
Date: 16 Sep 1996 16:06:48 -0400
Organization: Ursinus College
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <51kc0o$hh@leia.ursinus.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: leia.ursinus.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:18156 alt.solar.thermal:1141

Below is a Excel 7.0 Spreadsheet for sizing a sunspace and solar closet for
a house.  The file is uuencoded and zipped.

section 1 of 1 of file "SolClost.zip" [Norton Navigator 1.0]

begin 644 SolClost.zip
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!   )
 
end

section 1 of 1 of file "SolClost.zip" [Norton Navigator 1.0]




From bcrain@mailer.packet.net Wed Sep 25 13:26:42 EDT 1996
Article: 1142 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.packet.net!usenet
From: Bob Crain <bcrain@packet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Water heating - lots of questiions
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:36:07 -0400
Organization: Thermal conversion Technology
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <323DBA33.2927@packet.net>
References: <01bb9c2c$f1de6a80$62070ccf@Psandyb> <51fe7v$6nv@ddi2.digital.net>
Reply-To: bcrain@mailer.packet.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: srq136.packet.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Guss Wilder wrote:
> 
> In article <01bb9c2c$f1de6a80$62070ccf@Psandyb>, "SandyB" <sandyb@aloha.net> wrote:
> >I went to the local fair and was intriqued by the solar hot water guys
> >display.
> >My questions??  Is it worth it?  Are they trouble free?
> >
> Based on my experience with two houses that had solar hot water I would say
> that they are not worth it due to ongoing maintenance costs.  Energy costs in
> your area, however, may be much higher than the 8 cents/kwh in my area and
> you may gain greater benefits.  You probably do not suffer the freeze damage
> problems that happen in many areas either.
> In your cost calculations, remember that lightning may strike the electronics,
> especially on roof mounted units, and it's not cheap to replace.  Also, the
> pumps wear out.  Then too, when tanks wear out, you will have a much more
> expensive tank to replace.  It is also hard to find competent repair people.
> Most of the big plumbing shops in my area (Fla.) stopped working on them
> because of user dissatisfaction, and it is only expensive (what I call
> "specialty botique") places that work on them.  Ask several reputable plumbing
> places in your area about it before making the investment.  Get prices on
> replacing the individual components too, so you will know what to expect.

The above would seem only to apply to active systems. The lifetime
maintence cost of most passive solar water heaters (batch heaters) is
zero!  Maintenence costs, when they occur typically involve removing and
replacing the collector to repair the roof when it wears out!

The above does come with the caveat that the collector is installed
corectly. For instance, using a Pressure / Temperature valve on a batch
heater will cause it to "blow of" quite often, and after a few cycles of
that it will no longer seat. Using a Pressure Only relief valve avoids
the "blow off" problem and is the "only way to go". (In a pinch the temp
probe of a P/T valve can be cut off). Also drains need to to be able to
drain (No water running uphill).

Solar Water Heating got more than it's share of black eyes during the
"bad ol' days" of Tax Credits. Continuing to build high quality, low
maintainence systems to meet todays requirements, while hearing the
horror stories that others generated can sometimes be quite
disheartening. But usually it just makes us work harder.

Bob Crain
Plant Manager
Thermal Conversion Technology
Manufacturers of the ProgressivTube Solar Water Heaters
Sarasota, FL


From qjwinn@IMAP2.ASU.EDU Wed Sep 25 13:26:44 EDT 1996
Article: 1143 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!qjwinn
From: qjwinn@IMAP2.ASU.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: no-cost heating & cooling
Date: 17 Sep 1996 19:13:36 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <51mt90$rtg@news.asu.edu>
References: <MPG.ca38ab74409c6d5989680@news.e-tex.com> <323E26B1.6D58@ieee.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: general3.asu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Raymond Bahm (r.bahm@ieee.org) wrote:
: user3 wrote:
: > snip


test reply please disregard. thanx 
qj


From stpclibn@reading.ac.uk Wed Sep 25 13:26:45 EDT 1996
Article: 1144 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunews!suma3!stpclibn
From: Peter James Brooke Clibbon <stpclibn@reading.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar/wind community
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:37:28 +0100
Organization: University of Reading, U.K.
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960917153345.14324A-100000@suma3.reading.ac.uk>
References: <01bb9f85$31ba99c0$4c72d9ce@#jeffyr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: suma3-e2.reading.ac.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To: Jeffrey Rosen <jeffyr@ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <01bb9f85$31ba99c0$4c72d9ce@#jeffyr>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.homepower:330 alt.energy.renewable:18160 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1786 alt.solar.thermal:1144



On 11 Sep 1996, Jeffrey Rosen wrote:

> I am begining to research the feasability of developing a residentialy
> zoned parcel into an "eco-village" In addition to researching and
> implementing the latest technology in design,waste treatment,recycleable
> materials etc., I would like to compile as much info on solar energy as I
> can in a short amount of time. Among the considerations I am looking at
> are: can several dwellings share a large array in such a way that each
> family draws upon only the amount of equipment they invested in, are there
> more efficient ways to divide the expense, Is a large communal array an
> effective way to simplify and beautify individual homes by secluding the
> panels on an out of the way lot, ?
>       Is anyone aware of similar community efforts?  Also I have heard of a
> company which has made a recent break through in the cost of panel
> construction which makes solar electricity competitive with grid power, can
> anyone point me in the direction of this development? 
>    The project will be located in Charles Town WV and as the sub-division
> is larger than the current supply of interested participants need This may
> also be considered a call for others who may wish to participate and who
> are willing to relocate to WV. Likewise any photovoltaic industry people
> who see this may feel free to offer your companies services if it seems to
> be appropriate. This is not an exclusive subdivision being planned by
> wealthy do-gooders so cost is critical and we hope to keep prices in range
> with the assistance of Federal and private aid. 
> 
>           Jeffrey Rosen
>         Claymont Society for Continuous Education
>           Charles Town WV
>           jeffyr@ix.netcom.com 
> 
> 
> This may be a suggestion that you've already heard, but have you been in
> contact with the Centre for alternative energy in Wales, UK.  They have,
> essentially, a community running on renewable energy (PV, micro hydro
> and wind). They have also incorporated efficient building construction,
> bio-sewage, energy savings, etc, the works, in their site.  They have a
> web page (conduct a search on Yahoo), and can be reached on email. They
also have  a publishing house which details their experiences. Seeing
however is believing...I  was there 2  weeks  ago,  and was quite
impressed.

regards,
Peter Clibbon
Energy Group, University of Reading



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1145 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!usenet.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: help please - black tiles on roof- can this heat water
Date: 17 Sep 1996 10:40:06 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <51md86$39@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <323CDF08.3ADE@itl.net> <51h2sq$kh0@camel3.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

>Andrew & Jane Renouf <renouf@itl.net> wrote:
>
>>I have a property with a black  roof constructed of thin slate.   On 
>>sunny days the whole loft space above the house heats up to very high 
>>temperatures.  (You can't stay up there for any length of time).

Sounds promising.

The water heating efficiency would depend on the average water temperature,
Tw (F), the outdoor air temp, Ta (F), windspeed v (mph) as well as solar
intensity (300 Btu/ft^2/hr peak), sideways thermal resistance of the roof
(0.2xsx12/t F-hr/Btu, where water pipe spacing s and masonry roof thickness t
are in inches?), and the details of how well you attach the water pipes to
the roof. If they are buried in mortar, that might be pretty good thermal
connection, compared to the roof resistance itself.

You might analyze this electrical model for a square foot of roof,
to estimate the efficiency:

            ----------------- 
       ---| 300 Btu/ft^2/hr |--->---
      |    -----------------        |
      |  solar current source       |
      |                             |         I -->
 Ta  -------------www--------------------------www------  Tw
 60F?             Ra                Tr         Rr       | 80F?
                = 1/(2+v/2)                  = 2.4s/t   |
                                                     -------
You might also measure the roof temp Tr, as is,        ---
with no heat flowing into water.                        |
                                                       ---
                                                        -
The efficiency might be something like I/300. It would be low. A layer of
plastic glazing over the roof would improve it, or a transparent roof with
a dark colored attic and some fin-tube pipe running along under the ridge,
in which case you might also blow down some warm air from the peak through
a duct into the house for space heating, with a motorized air return damper. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 25 13:26:47 EDT 1996
Article: 1146 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!dimensional.com!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: heating a pool?
Date: 19 Sep 1996 12:19:41 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <51rrqt$pa2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <50okrd$7il@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <51ribs$fu2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Solardc <solardc@aol.com> wrote:

>Use a u/v resistant cover on a roller or connected to hula hoops.

How do you connect a cover to hula hoops? Most covers seem to have
very poor R-values, 1 vs 10 or 20... 

>...you won't need the cover except in the coolest ends of the season.

I keep thinking about year-round use. Swimming in January,
with the cover off, but not more than an hour a day or so. 

>Designs from worst (1) to best(higher numbers)
>
>Starting with the poorest design (sorry, Nick I only speak from 22 years
>experience) 

Aha, an old hand, like the folks in Wash, DC :-) 

>1."Trickle" (evaporation, corrosion, low flow)

I think we've been through this before: trickle between two layers of plastic
film on a roof, a black one over the shingles to keep them from rotting, and
a clear one over that to eliminate evaporation. Use al extrusion clamps to
make the 5 cent/ft^2 film replacement and recycling every 3 years very easy.

Low flow? Seems like we'd want 1 gpm/10 ft^2 or so, which might easily
emergy from a 2" PVC ridge pipe with 1/8" holes every 6" or so on the
south side, that trickle water between the plastic films.

>6. EPDM (Solaroll, Sunmat)

And EZ-Heat? $4/ft^2 seems expensive, vs 30 cents/ft^2...

Nick



From David@peecee.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 25 13:26:48 EDT 1996
Article: 1147 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peecee.demon.co.uk!David
From: David Wigg <David@peecee.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: $$COULD YOU USE A LOTTA XTRA CASH?$$
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:40:55 +0100
Organization: david
Lines: 1
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <kcexdCA35$QyEwlV@peecee.demon.co.uk>
References: <520o5u$8mf@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: peecee.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: peecee.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.00 <$2FIOBcq4QxZDmLCJCSEkIApwF>

Only then will you realise that money can't be eaten


From Replyby@Mail.com Fri Sep 27 14:27:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1148 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news73.supernews.com!news
From: Replyby@Mail.com (LSAT PRODUCTIONS)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: !!!!!!!!!!!  FREE INTERNET ACCESS   !!!!!!!!!!!
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:30:37 GMT
Organization: News.org
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <5289nj$r2h@news71.supernews.com>
Reply-To: Replyby@Mail.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 153.34.106.154
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

!!!!!!!!!!!  FREE INTERNET ACCESS   !!!!!!!!!!!

NEVER EVER pay for Internet Access AGAIN!!! E-V-E-R!

Amazing Course on Audio Tape describes STEP by STEP what your Internet

Service Provider doesn't want you to know!

* How to get FREE LOCAL DIAL-UP PPP Internet Access!
* How to Surf the Web,Newsgroups,and EMAIL Anonymously/Untraceable!
* How to Make VOICE Phone Calls ANYWHERE in the World UNTRACEABLE!
* Where you can get FREE Email Remailing
* Where you can get FREE Email Addresses
* Where you can get FREE Access to News Servers
* How to get FREE Internet Tools for Email, News, WWW, Etc.
* How to get free accounts on BBS's
* MUCH MUCH More!!!

No matter where you live in the world we guarantee you will get FREE 
internet access legally and anonymously!

TO ORDER:

LSAT Productions
PO Box 2747-453
Huntington Beach, CA  92648
USA

WE ACCEPT Check or Money Order.

$24.95 Delivered (WORLDWIDE) (US FUNDS ONLY)

Act NOW supplies are in Limited Supply! 

FAST SERVICE!

ORDER FORM - Print out and mail
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  -

                                             Price Each    Sub-Total

__   Total # of Courses     __________   ___________

           Shipping  (+ 1.00/add. course)     ___________

           Sales Tax (CA residents 7.75%)     ___________

                     Order total                    US $___________ 
PAYMENT BY:

___ Check ___ Money Order  - US FUNDS only!


SHIP TO:

______________________________      _____________________
Name                                                          Phone #

______________________________
Address
                                                                   
______________________________       As it should be written on a mail

City,State,Zip                                              piece.

______________________________
Country

WE ACCEPT US FUNDS ONLY!  Please make checks payable to ->   LSAT





From mounce@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:16 EDT 1996
Article: 1191 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!mounce
From: mounce@u.washington.edu (Doug Mounce)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Generating your own electricity
Date: 3 Oct 1996 17:54:12 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <530uk4$7cv@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: homer05.u.washington.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: mounce
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:29834 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9286 alt.energy.renewable:18388 alt.solar.thermal:1191

Hey, Will, sorry to upset you with the National Geographic reference. 
It's not meant to be a technical journal, and I didn't mean to imply that
technology ten years ago should inform the cost basis of a decision today. 
The more interesting information are the types of problems this individual
encountered with the switch, and his conclusion about whether it was
"worth it".  It's just an example.  	Doug
-- 


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:17 EDT 1996
Article: 1192 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 3 Oct 1996 13:00:26 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <530rfa$mfi@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <52u5c4$edn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52uavn$jpn@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1192 alt.energy.renewable:18389 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9287

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>>>>I wonder why most solar heating professionals completely ignore the
>>>>greenhouse industry, who have been working with inexpensive and practical
>>>>outdoor transparent structures for years. And vice versa...

>>Still wondering...
 
>Because solar space heating is a con.

Yes, there's been lots of that. It's time to fix that.

>It may be great for enthusiasts who have more time and money and space and
>a great do-in-yourself streek, but for the average homeowner, it is not
>cost effective or practical.

Agreed, as usually done, with rooftop panels, or direct gain houses
outside of the southwest. But that doesn't mean it has to be that way.

>Very few people have the space to install transparent structures to heat
>their homes. 

Bullshit. Every house has a south or southwest or southeast wall or roof.
Altho some houses are more suitable than others.

>>I felt perfectly comfortable in an 98 F outdoor hotel pool in Banff, Alberta,
>>when the air temp was -12 F, at night, with snow falling on my head... It was
>>too warm for swimming.  

Ice all over the steps and handrails, too...
 
>I bet that pool was not heated by a solar system. Nor could it be
>during the winter. A more likely renewable heat source would be a hot
>spring, which I don't think Banff has.

Can you say "Banff Springs Hotel" :-)

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1193 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Solar oven improvements?
Date: 3 Oct 1996 13:56:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 290
Message-ID: <530up3$n1c@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1193 alt.energy.renewable:18390 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9288

Marge Wood <woodm@NICANOR.ACU.EDU> forwards from Barbara Kerr:

>It gets about 250 degrees F. by 9:30 a.m. rises to around
>300F at noon and slowly drops until by 4 p.m cooking is over...
>Bread takes 2 hours.  A chicken or a beef roast takes 2 to 3 hours.

How long does bread usually take in an oven? A half-hour? How about
a 20 lb turkey, or 5 gallons of rice or beans or potatoes?
Sounds like higher temperatures might be welcome. 

Or a higher thermal conductivity between the air and the food, as in a
convection oven? The $39 DecoSonic circular glass one, with a mechanical
timer and thermostat and electric heater and fan, dries and cooks some
things very quickly, especially in small pieces, compared to a regular oven.
Warm air-food conductivity might be about 2+V/2 Btu/hr-ft^2 F, where V is
in mph, or 10+V W/m^2-K, where V is in m/s. A small PV powered circulation
fan in the oven might increase V from 0 to 8 mph and reduce the time to
heat up a pint of soup by 3:1, were the pot not exposed to the sun, altho
the the pot lids are usually transparent, with some sun shining in... 
 
>If I am going to be away from home, I may put the pots in before 8 a.m.
>and let them wait for the oven to heat up. And since the oven turns
>itself off, things do not have to be taken out promptly.

Storing some heat in the oven might be an advantage, if the pots did not
have to wait, and a disadvantage if the oven did not turn itself off.
But since solar energy is free, the oven might have a timer. Most ovens do.
A hanging metal cup weight filled with water, inside the oven, that holds
down a vent flap with a spring at the top, that opens when food is done?
A flap in the bottom that opens to let heat rise up into the oven, and 
somehow closes when the food is done?
 
>The outside portion of the Solar Wall Oven is comprised of the oven proper
>and the passageway ending in a frame to hold the oven securely in place.
>If the oven is very big, there may be cantilever props for additional support.

Sounds like the space under the oven is mostly empty. If the space below
needs props, how about putting some glazing under there, and heating the
oven from below too, or instead? Most people think of the sun as heating
things from above, or at an angle, but if we want to use the sun all year,
even in winter, when the sun is lower in the sky, and the days are shorter
and colder, it seems better to have lots of vertical or almost-vertical
glazing, since the highest altitude of the sun at noon on the shortest day
in winter is only 90-23.5-latitude, 26.5 degrees above the horizon at noon
on 12/21, where I live.

Also, with a low-thermal-mass "sunspace" below, and the thing to be heated
above it, warm air rises, so the thing above the house or oven or water tank
can be heated from below during the day, and if the thing is insulated above,
it can trap the heat at the top (like a cave or an igloo, with a floor above
the entrance) and lose little heat at night. If there is glazing above, vs.
an insulated roof, most of the heat in the oven is likely to disappear at
night. Maybe the pots could have a head start in the morning...

>The insulated oven box is lined with galvanized metal, approx. 26 gauge,
>is shaped and spaced inside the insulation with 1/2 inch or so clearance
>from the insulation and 1/4 in.to 1/2 in. from the glazing. 

I can't quite imagine how this looks.
I wonder how thick the insulation is, and what kind it is. 
 
>With the south facing ovens I have experienced six to seven hours of
>temperatures above 250F daily when the sun is out.
 
I wonder how well this works in the winter. Or in cloudier places.
Could we store solar heat for a cloudy day in the oven?

>My current oven size slants from 15 to 12 inches high, 18 inches
>north to south and 30 inches wide.

Aha, numbers! :-) Let's see: the oven itself has a surface area of about
15(2(18+30)) = 1440 in^2 or 10 ft^2, and it might be at counter height, 30"
above the floor, with about 3' to the ground on the outside? and 30" wide,
another 3' or so. And 18" deep, with a volume underneath of about 10 ft^3,
and a potential vertical solar glazing area underneath of about 10 ft^2, or
more if the glass or polycarbonate glazing slopes, or it is wider near the
ground. Glazing the space underneath might collect another 10,000 Btu/day
of sun where I live, in December. 
 
>The exterior end of the passageway and the base for the oven are
>set out from the wall sufficently to allow noonday sun at mid-summer
>to strike the top of the oven and any reflector.

And in mid-winter, when the sun just slides in almost parallel to the lid?

>If this is not possible, place the oven out as far as convenient and
>compensate by the angle and size of a South reflector.

A south reflector on the ground, white paint, or a shallow frozen reflecting
pool, might reflect 60% of the sun that falls on the ground to the oven (as
well as keep weeds and lawn mowers away from the glass), vs the 20% ground 
reflection in NREL tables, so it might increase the solar input by 1.6/1.2
= 1.33, 33% more, 13K vs 10K Btu/day. Collecting more sun by reflection is
harder to do with overhead glazing.

How about a movable insulating reflective cover on top of the oven, to cover
the glazing on top at night, with an R-value of 10, say, like the walls of
the oven (?). Hinge the cover along the edge near the house wall, and run a
string into the house that raises the cover when you pull on the string, so 
the oven can gather more heat on a sunny day in December, with the cover
raised to about a 45 degree angle. Can we attach a small motor and pulley
to the string, to lower the cover at night, or when a cloud passes over,
or when cooking is done? Sure.

How hot will the oven get on a December day, without much thermal mass inside?
Say we are cooking bread, with an RC time constant of less than an hour. RC
is product of the thermal resistance and capacitance. A loaf of bread with a
surface area of 1 ft^2 and a thermal resistance of 1/(2+8/2) = 1/6 (in a
convection oven) containing a pint of water might have an RC time constant
of 1/6 x 1 = 1/6 hour or 10 minutes. Let's assume the oven does not have to
evaporate a lot of water from the food as it cooks (this is very expensive
energy-wise, at 1000 Btu/pint of water.)

An average December day where I live near Philadelphia might be 43 F outside
for 6 hours, during which 1000 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall, if
there is no ground reflector. About 30"x18"/144in^2/ft^2x 1000 Btu/ft^2 =
3750 Btu/day of sun might fall on top of this oven, (if the lower surface of
the cover reflected 100% of the sun that fell on it) of which 90% might enter
the oven, if it had polycarbonate glazing, ie 3375 Btu, and the oven with 
internal temperature T would lose heat through its walls and ceiling over
6 hours to the 43 F outside world (let's assume the kitchen is also 43 F in
December, like mine, making the calculation simpler and the refrigerator
more efficient :-) If the conductivity of the oven were, say R1 for the
4 ft^2 of upper glazing and R10 for the 6 ft^2 of walls and bottom, ie
a total of 4/1 + 6/10 = 4.6 Btu/hr-F, we would have

3375 = 6 hoursx(T-43)x4.6 = 27.6 (T-43), or T = 43 + 3375/27.6 = 165 F. 

Not very warm, on an average December day with an average amount of sun, 
so what do we do, just cook on sunnier winter days? Add an electric heater
and thermostat in the oven and cook with the top lid closed on cloudier days?
How big an electric heater? With the lid closed, we have a conductivity of
10 ft^2/R10 = 1 Btu/hr-F :-) So raising the oven to 343 F, say, takes
(343F-43F)x10 Btu/hr-F = 3000 Btu/hr or 3000/3.41 = 880 watts. A $20 hair
dryer or small electric room heater could do this, for about 10 cents/hr,
if the electrical insulation, etc, didn't melt in the heat... Or 9 100 watt 
light bulbs in the bottom of the oven. (But it's better to have more airflow
around the food.)

Double glaze the oven? This reduces the amount of sun, but it also lowers the 
heat loss. Suppose double glazing is R2. Then the glazing conductivity drops
>from  4ft^2/R1 to 4 ft^2/R2, and the total conductivity of the oven decreases
>from  to 2.6 vs 4.6 Btu/hr-F, and the amount of sun that enters the oven might
decrease by another 10% to 3000 Btu/day. So we have 

3000 = 6 hoursx(T-43)x2.6 = 15.6 (T-43), or T = 43 + 3000/15.6 = 235 F. 

Better...

Let's add another 10 ft^2 of double glazing underneath, with some sort of
solar absorber behind it, and let the hot air rise up or better, be blown up
with some sort of fan into the oven. The oven temp T would go up as the
total becomes 4 ft^2/R2 for the upper glazing, 2 ft^2/R10 for the walls,
nothing for the floor, since it is warmer underneath, and 10 ft^2/R2 for
the lower glazing, for a total of 2 + 0.2 + 5 = 7.2. Solar power increases
>from  3K Btu/day to 3K + 10 ft^2 x 1333 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 14K Btu/day. So

14K = 6 hrx(T-43)x7.2, and T = 43 + 14K/(6x7.2) = 367 F.

How about cloudy days? Can we somehow store heat in the volume underneath, 
in say, a collection of scrap iron, with insulation around it, and a small
fan to heat the iron with solar hot air during the day? Iron and steel store
about the same amount of heat as water per cubic foot, 64 Btu/degree F, but
at a higher temperature. And it can be cheap at a junkyard, a penny a pound,
maybe. We'd need to cut it or break it up into smallish pieces and put it
inside some sort of box, or weld it together into a chunk with lots of holes
for fast-moving air circulation near the outside, and bigger hunks inside, eg
engine blocks or ingots or a stack of civil war cannonballs in a public park.

Say we mount the oven at eye level, and the heat store is 4' tall x 4' wide
x 2' thick, on the average, so we can store 4x4x2x64 = 2048 Btu/F inside.
The iron might be completely surrounded by R10 fiberglass insulation, with
some sort of oxidixed iron (a somewhat selective surface) eg stucco mesh over
that, an air gap, and two layers of glazing. What would the average temp of
this box be, ignoring the oven? The average outdoor temperature in December
over a 24 hour day where I live is 36 F. At this point, the box would lose
heat day and night.

Suppose now that the kitchen is 70 F, and the house wall is R20, so the heat
loss on the house side is not large. The 8 ft^2 bottom might have 2" R10
Styrofoam insulation exposed to R10 soil, ie a conductivity of 8 ft^2/R20
= 0.4, and the top of the box might have 8 ft^2/R10 = 0.8 Btu/hr-F, with
16 ft^2/R20 for the north side, exposed to the 70 F kitchen, with a total
of 16 ft^2/R10 for the east and west sides, and 16 ft^2/R10 for the south
side, at night, and 16 ft^2/R2 during the day. The box might collect
16 ft^2 x 1333 Btu/ft^2/day x 0.9 x 0.9 = 17K Btu/day. 

So 17K = 6 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R2  during the day, for the south wall,
      + 18 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R10 at night, for the south wall,
      + 24 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R10 all for the east and west walls,
      + 24 hours (T-36) 8 ft^2/R10  all day, for the top,
      + 24 hours (T-70) 16 ft^2/R20 all day, for the north wall,
      + 24 hours (T-36) 8 ft^2/R20  all day, for the bottom.

This is easier than figuring out income taxes, right? Simplifying,

   17K = 6 (T-36) 8
      + 18 (T-36) 1.6
      + 24 (T-36) (1.6 + 0.8)
      + 24 (T-70) 0.8
      + 24 (T-36) 0.4, or

   17K = (T-36) (48 + 28.8 + 57.6) (T-70) 19.2 + (T-36) 9.6
       = (T-36) 144 + (T-70) 19.2
       = 144T - 5184 + 19.2T - 1344 = 163.2T - 6528, so...

T = (17K+6528)/163.2 = 144 F. Not very warm...

Maybe we need a small air-air heat pump here, not just a heat-exchanger, but
a low-velocity vortex tube or a little jet engine to cool the block and heat
the oven to a higher temperature as needed. Compress some air with a turbine,
use the warmer air to heat the oven bottom, and return it expanded and cooler
to the block, via another small windmill attached to the same shaft, that
partially powers the input fan. We've got a fan in there anyway, right?

PV = nRT, so to increase air temp from 150 F to 250 F, ie from 610 to 710
degrees Rankine, we need to compress it by 710/610, to 86% of its original 
volume? Or push another 16% of air into that volume? Then remove some heat
at 250 F, then expand the air again, efficiently, ie slowly, to its larger
volume, and let it emerge at normal pressure from our unusual heat pump,
cooler than when it went in. We might need 14.7/0.86, ie 2.4 psi more than
atmospheric pressure. Hmmm. 67" of water. The American Supercharger II
hot tub blower, 2P681 in the Grainger catalog, $193, weighing 8.7 pounds
in the brown trunks (or the yellow ABS flame-retardant housing?) At 35 cfm,
with a ONE HORSEPOWER, 110 V, 6.6A motor... We would not need the sun if
we used that. And we might only be moving 35 cfm x 100 F, ie at most about
3500 Btu/hr or just over 1 kW, for a COP of less than 2. We need to look more,
or find someone to design a more efficient turbine.

We might double some of the insulation instead, and build some fixed
reflecting walls extending 6' or so from the south corners of the box
at about a 45 degree angle to the east and west sides of the box, to
double the sun to 34K Btu/day, and decrease the losses, so

34K = 6 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R2  during the day, for the south wall,
   + 18 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R20 at night, for the south wall,
   + 24 hours (T-36) 16 ft^2/R20 all for the east and west walls,
   + 24 hours (T-36) 8 ft^2/R20  all day, for the top,
   + 24 hours (T-70) 16 ft^2/R20 all day, for the north wall,
   + 24 hours (T-36) 8 ft^2/R20  all day, for the bottom, ie

34K = 6 (T-36) 8
   + 18 (T-36) 0.8
   + 24 (T-36) (0.8 + 0.4) 
   + 24 (T-70) 0.8
   + 24 (T-36) 0.4, or

34K = (T-36) (48 + 14.4 + 28.8) (T-70) 19.2 + (T-36) 9.6
    = (T-36) 91.2 + (T-70) 19.2
    = 91.2T - 3283 + 19.2T - 1344 = 110.4T - 4627, so...

T = (34K+4627)/110.4 = 350 F, 24 hours a day. 

But on a sunny December day, with the top oven cover open, we would have
about 300 Btu/ft^2/hr shining into the oven, ie another 8 ft^2x300x0.9x0.9
= 2000 Btu/hr shining into the oven, (the oven now being now 4' wide x 
2' deep x 2' tall) which would be losing 8 ft^2/R2 Btu/hr of heat through
the top glazing to the 43 F average outdoors, so

2000 = (T-43) 8 ft^2/R2 for the top,
     + (T-43) 16 ft^2/R20 through the sides,
     + (T-70) 8 ft^2/R20 through the north wall,
     + (T-350) 8 ft^2/R20 through the bottom, ie

2000 = (T-43) 4.8 + (T-70) 0.4 + (T-350) 0.4 = 5.6T - 374.4, so

T = (2000+374.4)/5.6 = 424 F. Almost time for solar pizza :-)

Especially if the top cover has a couple of side reflectors...

How fast will the oven heat store cool off on a cloudy day? With 2048 Btu/F
of heat storage, and the oven all buttoned up, with the movable R10 cozy
covering the R10 oven floor, the heat store might lose

24 hours x ((350-36) x (16 ft^2/R20 for the south wall, + 
                        16 ft^2/R20 for the east and west walls +
                         8 ft^2/R20 for the top + 
                         8 ft^2/R20 for the bottom) +
            (350-70) x  16 ft^2/R20 for the north wall), ie
	    
24(314(0.8+0.8+0.4+0.4)+280x0.8) = 24(754+224) = 23,472 Btu/day.

So, on the first cloudy day, it would cool 23472/2048 = 12 F to 338 F.
On the second, it would cool a bit less, since it starts off cooler, etc.

This is oversimplified, and nature is less linear at these temperatures,
so we won't really know how well it works until somebody builds one... 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:19 EDT 1996
Article: 1194 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Is American house design behind?
Date: 3 Oct 1996 14:44:08 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5311ho$nno@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3252697E.228A@anon.edu> <richarda-0310961041460001@pm1g.icx.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture:22227 alt.architecture.alternative:8304 alt.solar.thermal:1194 alt.energy.renewable:18391 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9289

Richard Austin <richarda@icx.net> wrote:

>In article <3252697E.228A@anon.edu>, "Mr. Bean" <anon@anon.edu> wrote:
 
>>Is that true that Europeans have always been much more receptive than 
>>American to Modern residential architecture? Why american houses are so 
>>boring?

>American housing is about 200 years behind the technology. But high tech
>isn't the answer. Low-tech, high design is the answer.

Agreed.

Nick

Today's weather at my house: sunny, 55.4 F outside, 67 F inside, 111.8 F
in the solar attic, with the steep south single layer polycarbonate roof.
Time to close the attic windows?



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:20 EDT 1996
Article: 1195 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 4 Oct 1996 12:03:55 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 496
Message-ID: <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1195 alt.architecture.alternative:8314 alt.energy.renewable:18396 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9309

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
 
>>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>>>>>available solar pool heating products.

I hereby acknowledge that commercially available pool heating products are
too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.
 
>>Still perplexed? Pool heaters aren't that bad, just too expensive, but pool
>>insulation sucks. Perhaps you have not noticed this. So here's a clue :-)
>>Heating a swimming pool with existing technology is like bailing a boat
>>with no bottom. You "solar pool heating professionals" need to get your
>>heads out of the sand and act more sensibly and responsibly on behalf of
>>your clients, and look at this as more of a system. Energy in, and energy
>>out, with a lot more emphasis needed on the out part, at the moment. 
 
>We don't build pools. A professional solar installer tries to get the
>pool owner to use a solar blanket.

Good idea. Now suppose you are a dermatologist. A patient comes in to your
office who has just been run over by a car, and he is bleeding profusely from
his missing arm. He asks for help with his itchy scalp. What do you do?

Pat him on the back, give him a prescription for some ointment, and
send him on his way? Is that professional? I know, I know, what can
you do if people do not want or will not accept the right kind of help?
You tell them what they need, and they ignore you. So maybe you end up
thinking they don't really need what you think they need, or that what
you have to sell today is really what they need, which is not true.

HVAC criminals act the same way.

This needs more common sense, leadership and education, along with a bigger 
picture, less specialization, and more high-school physics and arithmetic.

>>It is irresponsible to sell people heaters, when what they need is
>>insulation. It is irresponsible to use lots of fuel to heat a pool,
>>when one could use use far less fuel and pollute the atmosphere far
>>less with a little more imagination and insulation.
 
>You might consider that solar energy isn't a fuel in the conventional
>sense. There is no pollution associated with the use of a solar system.

Sure. That's obvious. What should also be obvious, but isn't, is that pools 
need more insulation, somehow. New pools built differently, retrofits, truly
effective thermal covers, structures to enclose pools, etc. It seems foolish
to attach expensive pool heaters to such miserably-insulated pools, from an
engineering point of view. If pools were better insulated, it would seem less
foolish to use existing pool heaters, and fewer square feet of them. You
might call this a rational engineering point of view. Not necessarily how
everyone else thinks.

Another reason to avoid using expensive pool heaters is that energy is so
cheap in this country. But making an inexpensive plastic film pool heater
on a roof seems OK, from that point of view. A square foot of ANY sort of
solar collector can only collect the heat equivalent of a gallon or two
of oil per year, so if oil and gas are cheap, solar collectors need to be
cheap to compete with them economically, no? Or, they need to serve more
than one purpose, like a transparent roof or transparent siding for a house,
since houses need roofs and siding anyway, or a sunspace that adds some
daytime floorspace and storage space and perhaps a place to grow things
to a house. Or a place to put a hot tub or a swimming pool.
 
>>>>These things seem like expensive overkill to me, for pool heating. 
>>>>Sure they work, but why spend $5/ft^2 when you can make a swimming
>>>>pool collector for 50 cents/ft^2? And why just extend the season a bit
>>>>when you can make something that works year-round. And where are the
>>>>R10 commercially-available pool covers?
 
>Let's see a "year-round" solar collector for 50 cents/ft^2.

Yeah, let's see that, Andy :-)

>One that isn't going to freeze,

Drain the system back into the pool at night. 

>that's going to last for 15 years+ with no maintenance,

Sounds good to me, but is that necessary? Many homeowners mow lawns, paint,
clean out gutters, wash dishes, mop floors, etc. (not me of course.)

>that doesn't look like garbage on a roof ......

Chacun a ses ordures. But how do you know what this will look like?
It ain't been designed yet. Architects and others have ways of making
lots of things look pretty, and there are many different architectural
forms with equivalent engineering performance. 

Let's see. Perhaps you would say that a black roof is not inherently ugly. 
Putting a layer of clear plastic over that doesn't change the appearance
much. Now we seem to be talking about how to keep the clear plastic from
flapping in the wind, right? If you were a piece of plastic film, lying flat
on a roof, with another flat piece of plastic right underneath, and you were
recently wet underneath, would you want to flap in the wind? Maybe.

What would keep you from doing so? Vacuum? The wet adhesive force?
Seems worth a try. Perhaps we are overcomplicating this. I think there
are lots of ways to solve this problem, some being more aesthetically-
acceptable than others. And why such emphasis on aesthetics, anyhow?
Iraquis are dying because of the way we use energy in this country.

>>Still wondering... It seems stupid to sell people pool heaters to extend
>>the season a few weeks, when with a fairly tiny amount of engineering and
>>arithmetic, you can make solar-heated pools that are usable all year. 
 
>Yeah, in theory. Try it sometime!

I'd love to, but I don't have a pool, and I'm not in that business. You are. 

>>>>Solar pool heating should be extremely easy, with a built-in thermal mass
>>>>and low water temperatures and high air temperatures and insolation.
>>>>So why aren't more people doing it?
 
>Because people get misinformation about solar from people who know
>nothing about what really works. From people like you.

I disagree. I think this business is fucked-up.

>>>I have always recommended conservation before insolation (insulation
>>>before sunshine) with any solar product...
 
>>Nice platitude. So why aren't you making an R10 pool cover? 
 
>It's not a platitude, it's the truth.

Too bad people don't follow your recommendation, huh?

>BTW I don't have the millions to risk in developing a product
>pool owners wouldn't buy. 

I don't think it would take millions. I think it might take 2 weeks,
depending on what you mean by "it." And I think people would happily 
buy "it" if "it" were reasonably priced and performed well, and you
put "it" in an alternative energy catalog like Jade Mountain's
(jade-mtn@indra.com.) Or sold kits to Home Depot.

>>>...in the real world, people with swimming pools tend to prefer easy
>>>solutions...

What is an easy solution?

Is it easy to put a $900 30' wide x 48' long plastic film greenhouse over an
existing pool, and hinge a 300 pound 24' x 36' cover made with $300 worth of
beadboard and 2x4's to a pipe along the 36' north edge, and haul the cover up
to a 45 degree angle automatically with a $200 DC winch when the sun shines
and the pool needs heat, in December? I think so. Should the south glazing
be translucent polyethylene film that needs recycling every 3-5 years, at a
cost of $60, or very clear single layer polycarbonate that lasts for 20 or 30
years, and costs $1000? Should people grow food and flowers and sit outside
next to their swimming pools in December? Would the second one of these things
be cheaper or easier to build? I think so, the 10th? I think so. How many 
people would like to own one? How will we know until we build one? You say
you know already, but people don't have choices like these now. 

>>>As you acknowledge, you do not have a swimming pool, and, from the
>>>sounds of it have never built a real solar pool heating system, I
>>>would suggest that you are ignorant of the practicallities of
>>>operating a pool and a solar pool heating system.
 
>>True. And I suggest you are know too much of these "practicallities." 
>>Also, it appears you can't spell. Not a good sign for a solar physicist.
 
>You would suggest that too much knowledge is a bad thing? Interesting
>comment from someone in an educational institute.

I'm suggesting that some of what you "know" is not true. 
And I am not presently institutionalized :-)

>>>You should be aware that even if you use a solar cover all the time,
>>>you are still going to have to heat the pool - ideally with a solar system.
 
>>Oh, I'm aware of that. Can we use numbers here? I mean, are you capable of
>>doing that sort of arithmetic, Andy, as a self-styled "solar professional"?
>>Or are you very confused about solar arithmetic and high school physics?
>>We need fewer "solar professionals" like that...
 
>No, Only confused by selective readers. ie: those who ingore facts
>that support their arguements.

I wonder what you mean by that. How do you ingore a fact?
That might work better than these discussions...

>>Now suppose the cover and heater are the same... :-)
 
>You mean like existing solar bubble balnkets????

Yes, during the daytime. Altho something more vertical would work a lot better
in wintertime. But we need something that is a lot more insulating at night.

>>>Solar systems have to be large because pools require a large
>>>amount of heat - that is just a matter of physics.
 
>>Sure. I wonder if you are familiar with this "matter of physics."
>>Few people are, I've noticed. Let's talk a lot more about that...
 
>Anytime.

OK. Give me some numbers. How much heat does a swimming pool need?

>>>Solar pool heating is not new, commercial products have been around
>>>for at least 25 years, and they work well
 
>>Bullshit. Pool insulation is rotten.
 
>What's pool insulation got to do with solar pool heating? We're
>talking about solar panels here.

You may have hit on the problem here.

>>>and last a long time (15+ years) if desighned and installed properly -
>>>with little or no maintenance!!!!!!!
 
>>So why aren't more people doing it? Something to do with money?
 
>Of course.

OK. What do we do about that? Make solar heaters with rooftop plastic films,
ie make them cheaper? Add value to the _system_, by making it possible to
swim all year? Reduce the cost with a more balanced _system_, with more
insulation and less solar heating?

>>...poorly engineered products? Like blue-colored "solar pool blankets"? :-)
 
>Solar blankets ARE NOT solar pool heaters.

True, in the usual sense. But why are they blue?
They would let in more sun if they were clear.

>>Or piss-poor insulating pool covers? Would you insulate your house with
>>swimming pool cover material? No way... Just how gullible do you think
>>people are, Andy, when you imply these are "well-engineered products"?
 
>You don't seem to know the distinction between solar blankets and
>solar panels!!!

Untrue. Should I add some exclamation points!!! ? :-)

>>They are expensive kludges, that hardly seem engineered at all to me. If
>>that's all you have to sell, too bad. But existing pool covers are no good,
>>and saying they are won't make them so. That is a lie. Do you ever get
>>angry when people lie to you? Should professionals lie? Should they know
>>the basic science of their profession, or just sell things?
 
>Yes I get angry when people lie to me. I also get angry when people
>don't listen.

Me too. And should professionals lie? And should they know
the basic science of their profession, or just sell things?

>Existing pool covers are much much better than nothing!

Absolutely.

>Right now that is the alternative.

You mean, like, this afternoon....?

>>>Try that with loose plastic sheeting on a roof!!!!!!
 
I would if I had a swimming pool, perhaps this afternoon. Maybe I should
put one up in my attic. No, too heavy... It's 100.6 F up there now, and 
47.7 F outside. I'm thinking of closing some attic windows.

>>Try what? Who said the plastic was "loose"? We don't want it to blow away,
>>or suffer from wind fatigue. How can we avoid that? There must be 50 simple
>>ways. Sven Tjernagel of Mechanicsburg, PA has built several thousand flexible
>>rooftop water heaters like these, over the last 20 years. Are you looking for
>>problems or looking for solutions?
 
>Why isn't Sven's product being sold to heat pools? 
>I've never heard of it, and I would like to.

I don't know the answer to that question. I suspect they are being used for
some swimming pool heating applications now. Chlorine compatibility may be a
problem. A heat exchanger might be needed with an EPDM collector, but that's
probably not a big deal. Run a few $4 solid PVC pipes around the pool maybe.
Or make a concentric tube heat exchanger out of some of the plumbing. Do
SolaRoll collectors degrade from pool chlorine? Is that why they wear out?
We might use oxygenation, or Aqua-Air's silver-copper ion system to reduce
or eliminate chlorine. Environmentalists and fish don't like chlorine.

Sven is now definitely out of that business, and mostly building water tanks
for fire protection systems now. But many of those several thousand solar
heating systems are still in use at hotels and laundrys and so on. He aimed
at commercial and industrial installations, some of them having thousands of
square feet of collectors. In his system, the EPDM rubber needed replacing 
every 7 or 8 years, because it was a trickle-down system rather than filled
with water, with dry hot spots. That also meant he needed more water flow than
normally needed, I think. And I suppose there were stagnation problems in some
installations. He didn't intall these systems on roofs with a pitch more than
1:1 either, as I recall. He said he aimed at businesses than homeowners
because businesses were used to the idea of maintenance, and didn't mind
replacing the rubber every so often, but homeowners expected systems to last
at least 20 years, and didn't want to do any maintenance at all. Does that
make sense? I'm sure it does to you.

I just tried to call Sven, and got his answering machine. Perhaps you'd
like to talk with him: 

Sven Tjernagel Solar Systems
477 Woodcrest Road
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
(717) 761-5858, -8951 fax

He's an interesting and practical person who knows a lot about solar heating,
including radiant floor heating and hot air distribution with duct heat 
exchangers. Good practical stuff. But like many people who really know how
to do solar heating, he's out of that business. He site-built heat storage
tanks with EPDM rubber liners inside plywood boxes until UL stopped approving
site-built tanks (will CSA accept them?), then switched to a nicer design,
something like a tall circular sheet metal swimming pool, lined with foam
and EPDM. He stopped installing unpressurized hot water tanks upstairs when
people complained about "rats in the walls," ie hot water cavitation in
the vertical pipes... 

>>>The status quo works, and has been arrived at from trial and error in the
>>>solar industry. I'm all for inovation, but not just for inovations' sake.
>
>>There's something to be said for the status quo, and you have said it,
>>but it does not seem to me that you are "all for innovation."

I wonder how long you will parrot back this status-quo defense. 

>>>Prove to me it works and lasts as long or longer, has less
>>>impact on the environment and I'll go with it.
 
>>That's not my job, Andy. I'm not the "solar pool heating professional."
 
>No, but you are advising people who are looking for practical solar
>.solutions.

Sure.

>You owe it to them to tell them what is available in the market,

Not if they are not practical solar solutions.

>I've just noticed that your e-mail address origionates from an .edu
>location.

Just now, huh?

>I must conclude from this and your attitude that you are an
>"Ivory tower idiot" - long on the theoretical and ignorant of the practical.

OK. Go ahead. Conclude.

>You seem to be blaming the solar industry for the sins of the
>pool-building industry.

Not exactly. Not even close, actually.

>The two are not related.

I wouldn't say that at all. Would they were moreso.

>If you care to take a close look, you'll find that pool campanies usually
>don't sell solar systems -

Interesting. Why not, exactly? 

>solar companies do.

Now why is that... Could it be that pool companies know that solar heating
their existing pools is foolish? Unlike your customers, after you have
handcuffed them to chairs and given them your professional advice?

>Pool companies - from what I've seen- don't give two hoots what it costs
>a pool owner to operate their pools. They just want to sell the pool and 
>the chemicals that go with it.

OK for the moment. But I think that might change, with a few good examples.

>(The chemicals are another environmental horror story)

That might be improved a lot with aeration, a fountain here or a waterfall
there, and by letting some water flow through the pool, if heating water or
water itself were not so expensive. One might use rain, for hot tubs, and  
5 parts per _billion_ of copper ion in water will stop algae. Throw some
pennies in the filter?

>Solar is a nuisance to them -they'd rather you bought a gas heater (from them)
>and run it on "high" all the time. (that way you'll need more pool chemicals)

I think this can change, if a few people do things right.  

>Any reputable solar company, and there are many, will insist that
>before you use a solar system, you use a solar blanket. The only solar
>blankets available are really just evapouration retarders, not
>insulation blankets.(And the best ones are transparent/translucent to
>let the sun into the pool)

Right.

>There is a very simple reason for this. No one has figured out a way
>to cover an 800 Sq. ft. kidney shaped pool with an insulating blanket
>that can be removed and replaced in 2 minutes (that doesn't cost over $300)

I think you may be defining the problem too narrowly here, but perhaps we
need to do more figuring out. Tiny cold bubbles are excellent insulators. 
Greenhouse people have been experimenting with them since 1975, and they
have a harder task than swimming pool coverers. Can we have bubbles on top
of the water itself, somehow, under a plastic film to stop evaporation? 
Polyethylene macrospheres that are filtered out when we want to swim?

How about just deflating a polyethylene film pillow full of tiny soap bubbles
before swimming, pumping it out and letting it sink to the bottom? Or doing
that with a weighted neutrally-bouyant Styrofoam cover, by making it slightly
heavier than the pool, and lowering it with a few ropes or letting some water 
fill a few cavities rather than air? This is not rocket science.

>These are parameters that are set by the end user.

I think you may be defining the problem too narrowly here.
Many end-users would be delighted to swim in December.....

>As I have already mentioned, even the existing easy-to-use, not unsightly,
>cheap, solar bubble blankets are difficult to sell 

Awww... Too bad... Poor Andy...

>(and get the customers to use) (this is true even when you point out
>they will need a solar system twice as large if they don't use a blanket!!)

And all this is for what? Another month or so of pool use?

>The average consumer can be a pretty dumb animal !

Especially when bamboozled by "professionals."

>They will buy for their convienence and their pocket-book, but
>not for the environment or energy efficiency (if it means more
>than a 3 year payback).

How about for December swimming, or a nice warm place to sit outdoors
during the day, or to grow food or flowers?

>This is the real market. Rant and rave all you wish about what people
>"should" do.

I know, I know, they should buy your solar pool covers and heaters.

>They do what they do, and will continue to do so. 

Forever and ever, unchanging unto the last syllable of recorded time...

>I consider it a small victory to turn people from natural gas, oil or
>electricity to solar for heating their pools.

I do too. But we look for easy victories, right? Like drunks who look for
wallets under lamposts at night, because there is not so dark there.  

>I think it is a crime to heat a pool with a fossil or nuclear (fission)
>fuel and damage the environment in the process.

No argument there, and fusion is very far away. But it's also a crime 
to push pool heaters when what people need is pool insulation.

>Until some company invents and perfects the R10 pool blanket -and I
>don't think that it will happen in my lifetime-

Perhaps because in your world, nothing  ever  changes.

>the best solution is still the manufactured solar product,
>installed by solar professionals.

Ah yes, those nice shiny expensive bailing buckets for bottomless boats,
installed by crack solar professionals. "Here you are M'am. We are so happy
to meet your pool heating needs."

>The payback on these systems vs. installing and
>operating a conventional natural gas heater is typically 2-3 years.

Almost as short as the payback for closing the windows of a house
in December, vs buying more gas to heat it...

>If you wish to complain about my spelling, go ahead - I don't have a
>spell-checker

I don't either. 

>and I consider it very petty of you to comment on it -
>I'd say it shows a pretty arrogant attitude.

Okokok. I won't say another word about your spelling.
I will let this aspect of your professioalism speak for itself.

>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.

No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)

Nick



From rbean@earth.execpc.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1196 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!iag.net!newspump.sol.net!posts.execpc.com!earth.execpc.com!not-for-mail
From: rbean@earth.execpc.com (Ron Bean)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: winter heating (for those in colder climates)
Date: 4 Oct 1996 15:28:29 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <533s1d$h57@earth.alpha.net>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <01bbafdf$314cb8a0$a3c8bdcd@sculbert.bconnex.net> <52u126$dql@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530lrf$21d@News.IDT.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: earth-le1.execpc.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:29939 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9312 alt.energy.renewable:18398 alt.solar.thermal:1196


tssinc@mail.idt.net (Jerry Chase) writes:
 
>For those who haven't figured it out, Nick Pine is the type of
>"expert" who would posit an exact mathmatical answer to the
>question "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"

   Does Nick Pine claim to be an "expert"? He tends to raise interesting
questions and leave the value of his "answers" as an excercise for the
reader. Anyone who takes his ramblings as "advice" is missing the point.
Anyone who dismisses them out of hand is probably missing something also.

>While Nick has a little knowledge and a good handle on math, he flails
>about the newsgroups like a child with a chainsaw, in his attempts to
>impress others with his skill at using tools beyond his abilities.

   I don't get the impression that he's trying to impress anyone, but he
doesn't have any sympathy for the humor-impaired.

   (I do wish he'd put his footnotes at the end of the article instead of
in the middle of his sentences.) 

>I try to ignore Mr. Pine unless he quotes one of my posts out of
>context.

  Chill out. If people aren't fooled by him quoting someone else out of
context, it won't be any different when he's quoting you out of context.


From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:22 EDT 1996
Article: 1197 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:58:12 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <324EE3EB.75A4@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l3.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

 
>> I'd guess you are somewhat locked into the status quo, like many others.

>Which means "you don't agree with everything that Nick Pine decries".

>Cheers,

>William R. Stewart
>Member American Solar Energy Society
>Member Electrical Vehical Association of America
>"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

Thanks for the vote of support.

In these posts I've felt like I'm battling someone who isn't really
looking for practical answers. I would appear he has a plastic film
fixation. I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of
applications, but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar
needs is absurd.

And, yes, solar can be cheaper...... if you do it yourself. But... in
all likelyhood it will be much less reliable, much less efficient and
last for a much shorter time.

There are many good solar products on the market, and many dedicated
and experienced solar companies out there. It is still a buyer beware
market, and the best defense is to become informed and educated about
solar before looking to buy something. I would hope that this
newsgroup strives to achieve that purpose for its' readers. I know
that's what I'm trying to do.

Andrew McKegney
Member SESCI, CANSIA, NSPI of Canada



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1198 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:43:47 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 224
Message-ID: <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l3.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>>>>available solar pool heating products.

>Still perplexed? Pool heaters aren't that bad, just too expensive, but pool
>insulation sucks. Perhaps you have not noticed this. So here's a clue :-)
>Heating a swimming pool with existing technology is like bailing a boat
>with no bottom. You "solar pool heating professionals" need to get your
>heads out of the sand and act more sensibly and responsibly on behalf of
>your clients, and look at this as more of a system. Energy in, and energy
>out, with a lot more emphasis needed on the out part, at the moment. 

We don't build pools. A professional solar installer tries to get the
pool owner to use a solar blanket.

>It is irresponsible to sell people heaters, when what they need is
>insulation. It is irresponsible to use lots of fuel to heat a pool,
>when one could use use far less fuel and pollute the atmosphere far
>less with a little more imagination and insulation.

You might consider that solar energy isn't a fuel in the conventional
sense. There is no pollution associated with the use of a solar
system.

>>>These things seem like expensive overkill to me, for pool heating. 
>>>Sure they work, but why spend $5/ft^2 when you can make a swimming
>>>pool collector for 50 cents/ft^2? And why just extend the season a bit
>>>when you can make something that works year-round. And where are the
>>>R10 commercially-available pool covers?

Let's see a "year-round" solar collector for 50 cents/ft^2. One that
isn't going to freeze, that's going to last for 15 years+ with no
maintenance, that doesn't look like garbage on a roof ......

>Still wondering... It seems stupid to sell people pool heaters to extend
>the season a few weeks, when with a fairly tiny amount of engineering and
>arithmetic, you can make solar-heated pools that are usable all year. 

Yeah, in theory. Try it sometime!

>>>Solar pool heating should be extremely easy, with a built-in thermal mass
>>>and low water temps and high air temperatures and insolation.
>>>So why aren't more people doing it?

Because people get misinformation about solar from people who know
nothing about what really works. From people like you.

>Still wondering...

>>I have always recommended conservation before insolation (insulation
>>before sunshine) with any solar product...

>Nice platitude. So why aren't you making an R10 pool cover? 

It's not a platitude, it's the truth. BTW I don't have the millions to
risk in developing a product pool owners wouldn't buy. 

>>but in the real world, people with swimming pools tend to prefer easy
>>solutions...

>Like bombing Iraq? :-)

Only in America - - "Pity"

>>As you acknowledge, you do not have a swimming pool, and, from the
>>sounds of it have never built a real solar pool heating system, I
>>would suggest that you are ignorant of the practicallities of
>>operating a pool and a solar pool heating system.

>True. And I suggest you are know too much of these "practicallities." 
>Also, it appears you can't spell. Not a good sign for a solar physicist.

You would suggest that too much knowledge is a bad thing? Interesting
comment from someone in an educational institute.

>>You should be aware that even if you use a solar cover all the time,
>>you are still going to have to heat the pool - ideally with a solar system.

>Oh, I'm aware of that. Can we use numbers here? I mean, are you capable of
>doing that sort of arithmetic, Andy, as a self-styled "solar professional"?
>Or are you very confused about solar arithmetic and high school physics?
>We need fewer "solar professionals" like that...

No, Only confused by selective readers. ie: those who ingore facts
that support their arguements.
 
>Now suppose the cover and heater are the same... :-)

You mean like existing solar bubble balnkets????

>>Solar systems have to be large because pools require a large
>>amount of heat - that is just a matter of physics.

>Sure. I wonder if you are familiar with this "matter of physics."
>Few people are, I've noticed. Let's talk a lot more about that...

Anytime.

>>Solar pool heating is not new, commercial products have been around
>>for at least 25 years, and they work well

>Bullshit. Pool insulation is rotten.

What's pool insulation got to do with solar pool heating? We're
talking about solar panels here.

>>and last a long time (15+ years) if desighned and installed properly -
>>with little or no maintenance!!!!!!!

>So why aren't more people doing it? Could it have something to do with money?

Of course.
>Or poorly engineered products? Like blue-colored "solar pool blankets"? :-)

Solar blankets ARE NOT solar pool heaters.

>Or piss-poor insulating pool covers? Would you insulate your house with
>swimming pool cover material? No way... Just how gullible do you think
>people are, Andy, when you imply these are "well-engineered products"?

You don't seem to know the distinction between solar blankets and
solar panels!!!
>They are expensive kludges, that hardly seem engineered at all to me. If
>that's all you have to sell, too bad. But existing pool covers are no good,
>and saying they are won't make them so. That is a lie. Do you ever get
>angry when people lie to you? Should professionals lie? Should they know
>the basic science of their profession, or just sell things?

Yes I get angry when people lie to me. I also get angry when people
don't listen. Existing pool covers are much much better than nothing!
Right now that is the alternative.

>>Try that with loose plastic sheeting on a roof!!!!!!

>Try what? Who said the plastic was "loose"? We don't want it to blow away,
>or suffer from wind fatigue. How can we avoid that? There must be 50 simple
>ways. Sven Tjernagel of Mechanicsburg, PA has built several thousand flexible
>rooftop water heaters like these, over the last 20 years. Are you looking for
>problems or looking for solutions?

Why isn't Sven's product being sold to heat pools? I've never heard of
it, and I would like to.

>>The status quo works, and has been arrived at from trial and error in
>>the solar industry. I'm all for inovation, but not just for inovations' sake.

>There's something to be said for the status quo, and you have said it,
>but it does not seem to me that you are "all for innovation."

>>Prove to me it works and lasts as long or longer, has less
>>impact on the environment and I'll go with it.

>That's not my job, Andy. I'm not the "solar pool heating professional."

No, but you are advising people who are looking for practical solar
solutions. You owe it to them to tell them what is available in the
market, rather than simply foisting your own untried and unproven
ideas on them as the "best" way to go.
>Nick

Nick , you are really starting to behave like an A______.

I've just noticed that your e-mail address origionates from an .edu
location. I must conclude from this and your attitude that you are an
"Ivory tower idiot" - long on the theoretical and ignorant of the
practical.

You seem to be blaming the solar industry for the sins of the
pool-building industry. The two are not related. If you care to take a
close look, you'll find that pool campanies usually don't sell solar
systems - solar companies do. Pool companies - from what I've seen-
don't give two hoots what it costs a pool owner to operate their
pools. They just want to sell the pool and the chemicals that go with
it. (The chemicals are another environmental horror story) Solar is a
nuisance to them -they'd rather you bought a gas heater (from them)
and run it on "high" all the time. (that way you'll need more pool
chemicals)

Any reputable solar company, and there are many, will insist that
before you use a solar system, you use a solar blanket. The only solar
blankets available are really just evapouration retarders, not
insulation blankets.(And the best ones are transparent/translucent to
let the sun into the pool) There is a very simple reason for this. No
one has figured out a way to cover an 800 Sq. ft. kidney shaped pool
with an insulating blanket that can be removed and replaced in 2
minutes (that doesn't cost over $300) These are parameters that are
set by the end user. As I have already mentioned, even the existing
easy-to-use, not unsightly, cheap, solar bubble blankets are difficult
to sell (and get the customers to use) (this is true even when you
point out they will need a solar system twice as large if they don't
use a blanket!!)

The average consumer can be a pretty dumb animal ! They will buy for
their convienence and their pocket-book, but not for the environment
or  energy efficiency (if it means more than a 3 year payback).

This is the real market. Rant and rave all you wish about what people
"should" do. They do what they do, and will continue to do so. I
consider it a small victory to turn people from natural gas, oil or
electricity to solar for heating their pools. I think it is a crime to
heat a pool with a fossil or nuclear (fission) fuel and damage the
environment in the process.

Until some company invents and perfects the R10 pool blanket -and I
don't think that it will happen in my lifetime- the best solution is
still the manufactured solar product, installed by solar
professionals. The payback on these systems vs. installing and
operating a conventional natural gas heater is typically 2-3 years.

If you wish to complain about my spelling, go ahead - I don't have a
spell-checker and I consider it very petty of you to comment on it -
I'd say it shows a pretty arrogant attitude. Get some real-world
experience with  pool heating -solar or other - PLEASE before advising
pool owners on what they can do.

Thankyou.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.




From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:25 EDT 1996
Article: 1199 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: 4 Oct 1996 07:37:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <532ssu$2u8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <324EE3EB.75A4@patriot.net> <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>In these posts I've felt like I'm battling someone who isn't really
>looking for practical answers.

And I feel I'm talking with someone who has no practical answers to sell.

>I would appear he has a plastic film fixation.

I don't see that in my DSM IV.

>I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of applications,

Not so limited, I think. There is this very large and successful greenhouse
industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the solar heating industry. Why? 

Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential sunspaces, and the prices varied
>from  $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film greenhouses cost less than
$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar heaters. This difference 
is very remarkable to me. If commerical growers had to use residential
sunspaces, they would be out of business in a year. I think the fact that
people heat houses with residential sunspaces is economically crippling
the solar house heating industry, don't you?

Pools seem different. The problem there seems to be the imbalance between
too little insulation and too much emphasis on pool heating, like bailing
a boat with big holes in the bottom. Perhaps pool owners are so rich,
they don't care about the money it takes to heat a pool. Available products
are not suitable for pool heating, as a system. Is that because of a lack
of industrial leadership, or a lack of market demand, or both? Or is it
just momentum and ignorance. Somebody should look at swimming pool heating
_systems_, a subject which includes insulation (surprise.)

Steve Baer recently wrote that the greatest discovery of solar heating
investigators has been that if you use lots and lots of insulation, you
need very little heat for a house, from the sun or any other source :-)

Pool people do not seem to have discovered that yet. Steve has also
written that, in a way, he enjoys repeating obvious truths to people
who won't listen. I don't.

>but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar needs is absurd.

Nobody suggested that.

>There are many good solar products on the market, and many dedicated
>and experienced solar companies out there. It is still a buyer beware
>market, and the best defense is to become informed and educated about
>solar before looking to buy something. I would hope that this
>newsgroup strives to achieve that purpose for its' readers. I know
>that's what I'm trying to do.

That's one purpose I had in mind when I created this newsgroup.

Another is to focus on basics, and cut through the hype.

Nick



From kenacks@delphi.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:26 EDT 1996
Article: 1200 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!delphi.com!usenet
From: Ken Acks <kenacks@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Free Newsletters--Environmental Damage Valuation & Cost Benefit News
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 09:40:10 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <ZXNxdci.kenacks@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com

Three sample issues of a newsletter entitled

"ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE VALUATION AND COST BENEFIT NEWS"

are available free of charge. Please send

Name________________________________________________
Organization________________________________________
Street Address______________________________________
City, State, County, Zip____________________________
e-mail address______________________________________

to kenacks@delphi.com call (516) 897-9728, or fax (516) 897-9185

You will receive two versions--an ascii and binary (Wordperfect)
version. The ascii version is more easily read but less visually
appealing.  Many  recipients have difficulties translating the
binary files.

This is not a list. You will receive 6 to 9 mailings, and none
thereafter, unless you subscribe.


You can also obtain additional information from our web site
currently located at 

                http://people.delphi.com/kenacks/

The site currently features a text version of the April, 1996
newsletter, a large number of valuable links, and a statement of
purpose.




From tssinc@mail.idt.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1201 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!news.idt.net!news
From: tssinc@mail.idt.net (Jerry Chase)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: winter heating (for those in colder climates)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 04:55:06 GMT
Organization: IDT Corporation
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <534fan$lb7@News.IDT.NET>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <01bbafdf$314cb8a0$a3c8bdcd@sculbert.bconnex.net> <52u126$dql@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530lrf$21d@News.IDT.NET> <533s1d$h57@earth.alpha.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-14.ts-2.mia.idt.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:29970 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9316 alt.energy.renewable:18403 alt.solar.thermal:1201

>tssinc@mail.idt.net (Jerry Chase) writes:

>>For those who haven't figured it out, Nick Pine is the type of
>>"expert" who would posit an exact mathmatical answer to the
>>question "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"

rbean@earth.execpc.com (Ron Bean) wrote:

>   Does Nick Pine claim to be an "expert"? 

Unfortunately, he does.  Do an alta-vista search for his "test for a
true energy expert" to get a short course on someone off on an ego
trip.

>He tends to raise interesting
>questions and leave the value of his "answers" as an excercise for the
>reader. 

Many of those questions are gleaned from other people's posts.  I
don't object, but don't forget to give credit where credit is due.

>Anyone who takes his ramblings as "advice" is missing the point.
>Anyone who dismisses them out of hand is probably missing something also.

I made the same mistake about seriously thinking about his points at
first.  Upon close examination, I found many of them flawed.

For example, Nick believes in "wind energy concentrators" (big funnels
in front of windmills).  After I experimented with trying to make a
functioning one these and failed, I researched the problem and found
valid reasons why they don't work, based in simple classical physics.

I notified Nick of my failure and suggested some relevent theorems to
him of why the concept wouldn't work as he had intuited, yet he
continued to insist, in the face of clear evidence, that he had to be
correct, referring to some research by Grumann as his proof.

Not trusting my own judgement as being the word from "on high", (Read
"able and willing to admit errors")  I contacted Mike Bergey, (I trust
the name needs no further qualification) who answered me that "wind
concentrators were the 800 mpg caburators of the alt.energy field",
and "the concentrator that Grumann designed was ineffective."  'Nuff
said. (And so much for Nick's qualifications to conduct a test for a
"true" energy expert.)

I could continue with other areas where Nick's knowledge is not what
it seems at first glance, but the point has been made.

>>While Nick has a little knowledge and a good handle on math, he flails
>>about the newsgroups like a child with a chainsaw, in his attempts to
>>impress others with his skill at using tools beyond his abilities.

>   I don't get the impression that he's trying to impress anyone, but he
>doesn't have any sympathy for the humor-impaired.

I stand by my statement.

Nick doesn't have sympathy for _anyone_ who disagrees with his point
of view.  Unfortunately for Nick, _I_ don't appreciate anyone that
goes out of their way to "put down" others (myself aside, I've seen
him try to "trash" many others).  

His statements, like "You are fortunate you don't have knowledge
(about energy) like some others." are, sad to say, a true reflection
of his attitude. That _isn't_ humor.  It is pure "I'm better than
everyone else in this group" thinking, which is b_______, and has no
place in any group trying to expose new ideas and discuss them in a
civilized manner. 

>   (I do wish he'd put his footnotes at the end of the article instead of
>in the middle of his sentences.) 

>>I try to ignore Mr. Pine unless he quotes one of my posts out of
>>context.

>  Chill out. If people aren't fooled by him quoting someone else out of
>context, it won't be any different when he's quoting you out of context.

I "chill" when Nick behaves like a human, and not a know-it-all
without a clue.  You'll notice I did let him quote out of context in
making his first comments.  It was only when he started with his usual
BS that I responded.  If there weren't newcomers to the groups, I
probably would have even let that slide.

BTW, You are welcome to do an av search on me if you think I lack am
"humor-impaired"  or lack the ability to laugh at my own mistakes.

Just for fun, then do one on Mr. Pine.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, and when Nick goes away from pontification
and moves on to honest attempts to support and help others in his
posts, like many others with less "intellect" and more of what he
looks down on as "practical knowledge", I'll gladly change my attitude
towards him.  

Until then, as Ayn Rand used to say, he'd better "check his premises".

"Now go away, or I will taunt you a second time." <g> (Monty Python
again.)
 



From aaasolar@rt66.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1202 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!panix!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Chuck Marken <aaasolar@rt66.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Any Solar Heating Pool Information on the Internet
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:32:30 -0600
Organization: Rt66.COM, Public Internet Access in New Mexico
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <325422DE.5FCD@rt66.com>
References: <32515A67.2FAD@cc.hku.hk>
Reply-To: aaasolar@rt66.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmd02.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U)

Nobody wrote:
> 
> Hello all solar application experts,
> I would like to know if there is any information about
> Solar Heating Pool information such as Principle, Theory etc. found
> on the Internet.
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Rgds
> Samuel

To Nobody, we have a small section on pool heaters at - 
http://www.rt66.com/aaasolar
Look at the Solar Design Catalog contents - Parts and Equipment -
Swimming Pool Collectors and Equipment. We can also send you a free
Solar Design Catalog with system diagrams and more info via snail mail
free postage USA & Canada, $5US prepaid otherwise.
Chuck


From mecran01@homer.louisville.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1203 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!hermes.louisville.edu!homer.louisville.edu!mecran01
From: "Mr. Sorta Grumpy" <mecran01@homer.louisville.edu>
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 08:19:40 -0400
Organization: University of Louisville, Louisville KY USA
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET> <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: homer.louisville.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30005 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9319 alt.energy.renewable:18408 alt.solar.thermal:1203

This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

I'm not sure what ate the carp droppings.  At the risk of waxing too 
philosophical, it would seem that using the methods of permaculture would 
be very frugal. THis is not, however, an invitation for an argument 
between environmentalists and their opposites.

I've noticed the tone of this group changing recently too.  It's gone 
>from  being somewhat apolitical and pragmatic to sort of unfocused.  I 
believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 
of this group.



Mark Crane
University of Louisville
http://www.louisville.edu/~mecran01
mecran01@homer.louisville.edu
____________________________________________________________

The point of education in a democracy is to discover
as many ways of seeing as possible, not to rest secure
in the perspective we find the easiest and most comfortable
or the perspective of those currently in power.

--James Berlin, in "The Subversions of the Portfolio"
_____________________________________________________________




From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1204 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 08:28:42 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <32565479.35C7@patriot.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-0.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1204 alt.architecture.alternative:8324 alt.energy.renewable:18410 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9320

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
> 
> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
> >>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
> >>>>>available solar pool heating products.
> 
> I hereby acknowledge that commercially available pool heating products are
> too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.

Then time's a-wastin'!  Get your product prototyped and then
mass-produced, then you will make a fortune and you won't have to bore
us with these pointless arguments about the cheapest possible pool
heaters.  People with pools aren't normally interested in old tires and
boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.

I surprised you haven't championed earthships, yet.

> >Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
> >PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
> 
> No. 

Typical.


-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1205 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 5 Oct 1996 09:33:12 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <535o2o$eqf@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1205 alt.architecture.alternative:8325 alt.energy.renewable:18411 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9323

     The sea is potentially a source of vast amounts of electrical energy,
     as well as haddock. Scientists predict that some day, possibly as early
     as next week, whole cities will be powered by the sea. The key will be
     gigantic undersea electric turbines, whose blades will be turned by
     the relentless, powerful motion of lobsters walking along the sea bed.
     If you live near the sea and own a gigantic electric turbine, you can 
     harness this power today. The trick is to make sure your turbine is
     parallel with the prevailing lobster motion.

         from _The Taming of the Screw: Several Million Homeowners' 
	       Problems Sidestepped_, by Dave Barry

Moving from the Ludicrous to the Impractical...

>Is it easy to put a $900 30' wide x 48' long plastic film greenhouse over an
>existing pool, and hinge a 300 pound 24' x 36' cover made with $300 worth of
>beadboard and 2x4's to a pipe along the 36' north edge, and haul the cover up
>to a 45 degree angle automatically with a $200 DC winch when the sun shines
>and the pool needs heat, in December?

We might try a smaller version of this first, with some EPDM rubber draped
over some strawbales inside a quonset-hut-like structure, or more easily
recyclable haybales, if we are surrounded by horses, which (the bales) are
about 3' long and 16" square. Stack up 24 of them like this in 3 layers of 8
to make a 56" square x 4' deep hot tub, 88" square on the outside?

             ~12'                  We would need
..............................        a 16'x16' piece of vinyl or EPDM rubber
.              .             .        24 bales
.              .             .        12'x50' greenhouse UV poly film
.              .             .        6 12' pressure treated 2x4s
. . . . .  b a l e  b a l e b         2 4x8 sheets of 2" Styrofoam
.         b    .             a        20 12' 1x3s  
.         a    .             l ~12'   some screws and bolts
.         l    .hot tub      e        a pulley
. . . . . e . . . . . . . .  b        some rope
.         b    .             a        etc
.         a    .             l
.         l    .             e
......... e  b a l e  b a l e

               .
          .    c    .                 The cover, shown in the raised position
       .          c    .              might be painted white on the bottom.
    .                c   .    ~10'    It might be 8'x8'x2" thick, weighing
  .                     c  .          20 pounds, and it might be lifted 
 .                         c.         with a small 12 VDC reversible motor,
.         b floating bubble  b        eg a used windshield wiper motor,
.         a  pack cover...   a        especially if it had a counterweight,
.         l                  l        to collect sun or keep some plants
..........e..................e        from freezing at night, automatically.

How much sideways water load do the bales have to hold in, at the bottom?
A foot of water weighs 0.43 psi, so the wall of the tub, 2' deep on average, 
pushes sideways at 0.86 psi, so if the sides are held in every foot along
the perimeter of the tub, each tie has to hold 12"x48"x0.86 = 500 pounds.
Some ground stakes and/or tensioned 1/4" dacron rope every foot, running
across the bottom, holding together the pressure-treated 2x4 frame flat on
the ground that surrounds the bales and some 1x3s on edge every 2', tucked 
inside a flat 1x3 frame at the top of the tub?  

I've built curved half-bows like these with 2 12' 1x3s bent into an 8' radius,
held together with deck screws and 1x3 spacer blocks, purlins or ridgepole,
every 2'. A little chicken wire or stucco mesh on each side of the spacer
blocks would keep them from slipping and make the bows stronger.

On an average December day, where I live, about 10'x12'x900 = 108K Btu of sun
would fall into this structure, about one gallon of oil's worth, or 30% more
with a shallow frozen reflecting pool to the south, made from another piece
of EPDM rubber draped over a perimeter earth berm. One layer of poly film
has an R-value of about 0.8, and there's about 500 ft^2 of it here, so the
average daytime winter air temperature inside the structure might be about
43 F + 108K/(6hrx500ft^2/R0.8) = 72 F. 

If the bubble pack pool cover transmits 80% of the sun into the water, and
the white paint under the rigid cover reflects another 80%, we might have 
16 ft^2 x 900 Btu x 0.8 x 0.8 = 9K Btu falling into the hot tub on an average
6 hour day, with 6 x (T-72) x 16 ft^2/R1 Btu leaking out, for a water temp
T of about 72 + 9K/(6x16) = 166 F. Heh.

The tub would hold about 76 cubic feet of water, weighing about 5000 lb,
and all buttoned up, with about 100 ft^2 of R50 sides and 50 ft^2 of R10
cover, starting at 110 F, it might lose about 24(110-36)(2+5) = 12K Btu
on an average cloudy day, cooling to 110-12K/5K = 108 F.

It would be nice if the structure leaked a bit, with most of the rainwater
>from  the "roof" ending up in the flower bed in the front, and some of it
flowing through the hot tub to end up there as well.

Or... suppose the cover and heater were the same, like a "solar pool cover,"
during the daytime, but a lot more insulating at night. This hot tub inside
the enclosure would want the north poly film painted white, to reflect more
sun down into the tub.  
 
How much heat does a swimming pool need? Most of the loss is through the
cover. A 24x36' pool with an R10 cover might need 24(76F-36F)24x36/R10
= 83K Btu/day of solar heat in December where I live, the amount of sun that
falls on 83 ft^2 of vertical surface or 160 ft^2 of horizontal surface,
less than 20% of the pool cover area.

How about just deflating a polyethylene film pillow full of tiny soap bubbles
before swimming, pumping it out and letting it sink to the bottom?

Like this?                    poly pillow
                          rr   .   .   .   rr   pool rim
   air pump===hose====>   .                 .
                               . water .  <-- floating screen on a soapy water
                          s        .        s          puddle in the bottom  
                          s    detail A     s          of the poly pillow
                          s                 s
			  s                 s   pool sides
			     bottom of pool                 ^  ^  s is some
                                                            |  |  window 
Perhaps 3 modes, for a swimming pool?                bubbles|  |  screen
                                                            |2"|
      day: pillow full of air                       F s s s hose s s s Float
      night: pillow full of bubbles      detail A:       soapy water
      swimming: pillow on the bottom.               bottom of poly pillow

For the hot tub, it seems simpler to do this with a Styrofoam cover, making
it slightly heavier than the water, and lowering it by letting some water
fill a few cavities rather than air. Assuming it's 4' square inside, to make
the numbers easier, the 16 ft^2 x 2" thick Styrofoam weighs little, and
displaces about 10 pounds of water per square foot when submerged. Concrete
and stone weigh about 150 lb/ft^2 in air, or 86 lb/ft^3 when submerged. So
we need about 10/86x12" = 1.4" of concrete or stone or gravel or something
on top of the Styrofoam cover to hold it underwater. Lay some polypropylene
twine down on the cover, recycled from haybales, and place 1.4" of concrete
on top of it? Or glue a 2" thick x 4" wide Styrofoam edge around the top,
and pour some round pebbles on top? To collect sun effectively in this case,
we need a single layer of clear plastic film on top of the hot tub, to
prevent evaporation loss with the cover submerged. 

We might have 16' of 6" poly duct (eg unvented V4-6 at 22 cents per linear
foot from D & L Growers at (800) 732-3509) around the perimeter, underneath,
heat-sealed at the ends, so we can float the cover by slightly inflating the
tubing at night, with an aquarium pump. Allowing a little air to escape
underwater would probably keep the tub cleaner. Hmmm. Tropical fish?

We might use 4x8 cover modules for a full-sized pool, with 12" poly duct
underneath, inflated to 4" depth, and attach them together so these tippy
boats could support people on "pool patios," which might be fun, at parties.

Nick



From aab@cichlid.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1206 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!news.cichlid.com!not-for-mail
From: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 5 Oct 1996 10:24:21 -0700
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <5365k5$lc6@loach.cichlid.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32565479.35C7@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: loach.cichlid.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1206 alt.architecture.alternative:8330 alt.energy.renewable:18412 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9327

In <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> writes:

>Nick Pine wrote:
>> 
>> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
>> 
>> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>> >>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>> >>>>>available solar pool heating products.
>> 
>> I hereby acknowledge that commercially available pool heating products are
>> too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.

>Then time's a-wastin'!  Get your product prototyped and then
>mass-produced, then you will make a fortune and you won't have to bore
>us with these pointless arguments about the cheapest possible pool
>heaters.  People with pools aren't normally interested in old tires and
>boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.

Regarding solar heating of pools and houses I would estimate that of the
people in the US:

90% Couldn't care less
9%  Will use off the shelf solar products with guarantees installed by
    licensed contractors
1%  Will develop their own systems.

Andrew, Will and company cater to the middle group. Nick to the last
group.

Funny thing is, people like Andrew and Will were saying the same thing
about any kind of solar heating a few decades ago because there weren't
any products. The viewpoint is summarized as: "If I can't buy it off 
the shelf then I don't want it"

People like Nick are where the new ideas and products come from. Thanks
to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products 
to sell today.

I appreciate the information that all parties post to this newsgroup.
Will and Andrew for information about what products are available, how
they work, and the techniques to install them. Nick for new ideas and 
examples of how to do the necessary calculations.

Thanks to all of you.

-- 
Best regards,
Andy Burgess
aab@cichlid.com


From jimfrizz@iol.ie Wed Oct 16 22:37:32 EDT 1996
Article: 1207 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!usenet
From: jimfrizz@iol.ie (Seamus)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 18:26:53 GMT
Organization: Chaotic.
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <325668a4.18197522@news.iol.ie>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32565479.35C7@patriot.net>
Reply-To: jimfrizz@iol.ie
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-011.waterford.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1207 alt.architecture.alternative:8331 alt.energy.renewable:18413 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9328

Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>   said that:

>Nick Pine wrote:
>> 
>> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
>> 
>> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
....................etc
>I surprised you haven't championed earthships, yet.
>
>> >Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>> >PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
>> 
>> No. 
>
......etc
>"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

Quite so.This seems to be a hot topic at the moment and needlessly so.
There should be no dispute that solar heating of pools can be done
nicely on a shoestring, and there are several rival methods to do it.
All have merit.....probably.

We have been heating our swimming pool and hot tub by mainly solar for
four years now with a home build maintenance free system. It runs
automatically.......nearly.

The heavy oil boiler is still in place and is used as a top up when we
want it for our convenience and pleasure, but we probably could do
without it with a little more effort.......

We save 75% of the original heating fuel bill annually from before the
system came online.

We have achieved at least a double payback on the build cost, and
enjoy a longer season with the pool in use. This was made easier by
retro fitting pool wall and hall floor insulation before the last
season. This comprised of lightweight concretion made from recycled
packaging ground into poly beads, sand , gravel and stabilised with
very little cement. Damp proof courses were built in and drainage too.
Simple, and it all works beautifully.

If a crud like me can do it then so can you. Quit the *what where and
how* and just discuss the *when*.

I should have added that this is set up in Ireland where the weather
is not Californian.

We have the benefit of high oil prices to help us on. I understand
that the US is crippled by unrealistically low prices for energy.

Good luck, Jim.





From frg@io.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1208 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!usenet
From: frg@io.com (frg)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: R&D for Inventors
Date: 5 Oct 1996 17:15:37 GMT
Organization: Fellows Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <53653p$nci@nntp-2.io.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-01-110.austin.io.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

nventors can get professional advice and help in perfecting their inventions, 
and in developing/writing the technical portion of the patent application.  
See the website http://www.io.com/~frg, e-mail frg@io.com or call (512) 
218-4803. 



From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1209 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 18:29:49 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-13-c-175.gw.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1209 alt.energy.renewable:18415 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9332

I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
skiing.

I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water, 
circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof 
temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
pool in late May and close it in early September.


-- 
Richard C. Lambert                      800 Brenner Avenue
President                               Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.         (612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr     lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu



From smbkk@aol.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1210 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: smbkk@aol.com (SMBKK)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 4 Oct 1996 22:52:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <534ih9$ld4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

SMBKK@AOL.COM

One might be prone to think, given the amount of " space" that this issue
has taken, that the world starts and stops around heated pools. And people
believe Architects are elitists! 


From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Wed Oct 16 22:37:35 EDT 1996
Article: 1211 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.coast.net!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:55:57 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

There has been a bit (?!) of ranting on this topic here.
I am still not sure of the facts about solar blankets for the pool.
This is all theoretical as I haven't got one yet!!
Obviously I leave it on at night. 
When the sun comes up and starts to warm the air, ground, and water at
what point should I take the cover off to let the rays do their work
directly on the water, or does the evaporation ALWAYS suck out more
energy then can be provided directly (meaning I only take the cover
off to actually swim!)
Is there some quirky relationship between air temp and water heat
transfer that will enable me to know when its beneficial to take the
cover off at other times?
Please keep responses prettty simple - I don't wann be playing with
the cover more than twice a day if possible (on and off!!!)



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1212 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:35:42 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <3256FEDD.7205@patriot.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> <5365k5$lc6@loach.cichlid.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-3.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1212 alt.energy.renewable:18418

Andy Burgess wrote:
> 
> In <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> writes:
> 
> >Nick Pine wrote:
> >>
> >> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
> >>
> >> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
> >> >>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
> >> >>>>>available solar pool heating products.
> >>
> >> I hereby acknowledge that commercially available pool heating products are
> >> too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.
> 
> >Then time's a-wastin'!  Get your product prototyped and then
> >mass-produced, then you will make a fortune and you won't have to bore
> >us with these pointless arguments about the cheapest possible pool
> >heaters.  People with pools aren't normally interested in old tires and
> >boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.
> 
> Regarding solar heating of pools and houses I would estimate that of the
> people in the US:
> 
> 90% Couldn't care less
> 9%  Will use off the shelf solar products with guarantees installed by
>     licensed contractors
> 1%  Will develop their own systems.
> 
> Andrew, Will and company cater to the middle group. Nick to the last
> group.

I don't cater to one group over another; I simply stated that most
people wouldn't want old tires and boards on their roof holding down
massive sheets of plastic.  I'm all for innovation, but against Nick's
denigration of persons who don't worship his extremely cheap systems. 
Note that he does not live in a extremely cheap house.

> Funny thing is, people like Andrew and Will were saying the same thing
> about any kind of solar heating a few decades ago because there weren't
> any products.  The viewpoint is summarized as: "If I can't buy it off
> the shelf then I don't want it"

I've made my own solar products, such as a solar window heater out of
reclaimed wood, a discarded patio door, and scrap copper.  I'm all for
inexpensive, do-it-yourself solar projects; however, I just don't insist
on shoving the concept down everyone's throat.
He's even called people "criminals" for not using the cheapest possible
materials.

> People like Nick are where the new ideas and products come from. Thanks
> to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products
> to sell today.

Hardly.  #1, I don't sell solar products.  #2, Nick goes to great
lengths to present his ideas, though he often makes mistakes in the
order of magnitudes, or completely ignores significant aspects while
gloating over his prowness.  I once saw him take a stab at some HVAC
calculations, call it "HVAC craftsmanship" and then ask someone what
"PD" (pressure drop) stood for.

I have an electro-mechanical engineering degree and background,
including coursework in the application of HVAC and solar engineering. 
I've watched Nick propose "quizzes" of peoples' knowledge, just to glean
their formulas.

The new ideas come from persons who apply real knowledge in producing
prototypes, testing them, and then improving them.  By no means are all
of Nick's ideas screwball, but innovation is "95% perspiration, 5%
inspiration".

I admire his enthusiasm, but he must realize that other people have
ideas and have applied them, too, with a diversity of experiences.  It's
great to sit back with a catalog and design a system, and another to see
the results of such a design.

Ask him about empirical data on a solar closet; he mentioned a 4'x4' box
that didn't seem to behave according to his predictions and then
declared that the insulation must be R-5, even though he built it to
R-20.  Any solar closets?  Anywhere?

Hot air is great, but best when part of a solar heating system.  "Build
it and they will come".

Best regards,

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From heliocol@infobahnos.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1215 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.texoma.com!news.total.net!news
From: heliocol@infobahnos.com (Ken Tait)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 19:56:24 GMT
Organization: Infobahn Online Services, Montreal, CANADA +1(514)481-2585
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <538mdn$ge9@faith.total.net>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
Reply-To: heliocol@infobahnos.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.236.175.122
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) wrote:

>There has been a bit (?!) of ranting on this topic here.

That's an understatement!!  I agree with you totally and hope this
reply does not bring on the rath of god (NP) (PS- the small "g" is not
a typo.)  I have been following this group for a year now and frankly
have been intimidated to such a point that I thought it best not to
participate.  Well here goes!

>I am still not sure of the facts about solar blankets for the pool.
>This is all theoretical as I haven't got one yet!!

If you have a pool, GET A BLANKET!
If you havn't got a pool, when you do install one, heat it with solar
>from  the beginning.

>Obviously I leave it on at night. 

Yes an no!  Bad answer I know, but I'll touch on this at the end.

>When the sun comes up and starts to warm the air, ground, and water at
>what point should I take the cover off to let the rays do their work
>directly on the water, or does the evaporation ALWAYS suck out more
>energy then can be provided directly (meaning I only take the cover
>off to actually swim!)

The heat load or loss on a pool is affected by many variables.  Water
temp., air temp., ground temp., water table level, humidity, wind
speed, construction of pool, type of pool (above, on or in ground)
etc., etc.

And of course most of these are changing varibles depending on time of
day, time of season, climate, weather etc.  So its quite clear, there
is no real answer to your question.  Common sense will have to
prevail.

A pool blanket reduces heat loss by   A) reducing evaporation.
 and   B) reducing heat transfer out of the water (to the air)

A pool blanket reduces heat GAIN by   C) Shading the pool.

So take the blanket off when you think all the variables are in your
favour and will remain that way more or less, for a period of time.

Examples:  Assume pool is at 80F.
	Its raining and cloudy		-on
	Its sunny, warm and no wind	-off
	Its sunny, cool and dry and windy	-on
	Its sunny, hot and humid, but thunder
	 showers called for all afternoon 	-God knows?

>Is there some quirky relationship between air temp and water heat
>transfer that will enable me to know when its beneficial to take the
>cover off at other times?

Now the answer to your first assumption. --"Blanket on at night".

A side effect of a pool blanket is that it screws up the water flow in
the pool, particularly at the surface.  This causes stagnant areas
that breed algae and bacteria.  Bubble pack covers are the worst for
this.  Leaving the blanket on all the time is not good!!!
Also taking the cover off and on and off and on........
is a real PAIN.

So another judgement call.  If you leave the cover off at night you
will lose tons of heat.  I mean tons, were talking millions of BTU's.

You will either have a cold unusable or at least unpleasant pool if
you dont heat it, or a costly proposition if you heat it with oil,
gas, elec. 

However if your smart and heat it with solar, who cares if the cover
is off or not.  The heat you lose at night will go back in the pool
costing you nothing, limiting the algea problems and reducing the
cover on, off, on, off--you know what I mean-- problem.  Additional
advantages are that you wear out the cover less and it will last
longer and of course all the tons of heat are now in your pool and not
in your attic so if you have AC your saving again.  When the variables
are such that the loss is bigger than you can gain during the day,
start using the cover.

>Please keep responses prettty simple - I don't wann be playing with
>the cover more than twice a day if possible (on and off!!!)

I hope this was simple because it sure was long---sorry about that.


Ken Tait, P. Eng.
President
Heliocol Canada Inc.
http://www.sunsolar.com



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1216 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 7 Oct 1996 01:09:25 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 188
Message-ID: <53a3a5$nmf@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <538mdn$ge9@faith.total.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1216 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9344

Ken Tait <heliocol@infobahnos.com> wrote:
>John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) wrote:

>... hope this reply does not bring on the rath of god (NP)...

He (God) is a Merciful God, but He does not Suffer Fools Gladly.
Especially They who Purveyeth, and Acteth as if they Knoweth,
but Knoweth Not, and Will Not Accepteth Truth.

>I have been following this group for a year now and frankly have been 
>intimidated to such a point that I thought it best not to participate.

Welcome to the group :-) I've been told it can be a good idea to keep one's
mouth closed and not reveal one's ignorance. I'm still learning about this.

>>I am still not sure of the facts about solar blankets for the pool.
 
Perhaps you have been talking with experts?

>>Obviously I leave it on at night. 
 
>Yes an no! 

Yes, I'd suggest. But hey, I'm not an solar pool expert.

>>When the sun comes up and starts to warm the air, ground, and water at
>>what point should I take the cover off to let the rays do their work
>>directly on the water, or does the evaporation ALWAYS suck out more
>>energy then can be provided directly

I'd guess that almost always happens.

>(meaning I only take the cover off to actually swim!)

Good idea.

>The heat load or loss on a pool is affected by many variables.  Water
>temp., air temp., ground temp., water table level, humidity, wind
>speed, construction of pool, type of pool (above, on or in ground)
>etc., etc.
 
Since you are a P. Ing, Ken, perhaps you could easily come up with a
precise calculation indicating when it would make sense to leave an
R1 transparent pool cover off the pool, when the sun is shining.

>And of course most of these are changing varibles depending on time of
>day, time of season, climate, weather etc.  So its quite clear, there
>is no real answer to your question.

>From  a thermal point of view, it's clear to me: unless the pool is too hot,
leave the cover on, except for swimming. With insignificant exceptions.
Also I'm beginning to think that solar pool experts can't spell.
Do solar pool experts have Silly Walks (tm) too?

>Common sense will have to prevail.

And perhaps a little arithmetic?

>A pool blanket reduces heat loss by   A) reducing evaporation.

Enormously, in most cases. Here's one version of a formula for the ratio
of heat loss by convection to the heat loss by evaporation, for a pond,
independent of windspeed, from page 664 of Duffie and Beckman's 1991
_Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_:

Qc   0.001(Tp-Ta)     where Tp and Ta are pond and ambient temps (F) and
-- = ------------           Pwp and Pa are vapor pressures at the pond
Qe     Pwp - Pa             surface and ambient vapor pressure in inches
                            of mercury, 29.6" being 1 atmosphere. 

What else? Clausius-Clapeyron: ln Vp = 17.863-9621/Tabsolute,
and humidity ratio W = 0.62198 Pw/(P-Pw). And Qe is roughly 
(Tp-Ta)(2+V/2) Btu/hr-ft^2 with a windspeed of V mph. And a
clear sky can suck heaps o' radiative heat out of a pool.

>and   B) reducing heat transfer out of the water (to the air)

About as much as a single pane window reduces heat loss from a house,
for small temperature differences, ie not much, as we have discussed. 

>A pool blanket reduces heat GAIN by   C) Shading the pool.

It might "shade" the pool by reflecting and absorbing 10% or 20% of the sun
that falls on the cover, depending on the color (blue being a stupid color,
I'd guess) and glazing thickness and material. Some of the reflected solar
power is lost to the sky, and some eventually ends up in the pool, likewise
absorbed power. So we might take the pool cover off when the sun is shining
if we believed that the increased gain (30 Btu/hr-ft^2, ie 10% of the peak
solar input?) would be more than the 1 Btu/hr-ft^2-F increased loss by R1
conduction and evaporation (which might be much more than that.) 

>Examples:  Assume pool is at 80F.

With what air temp (80 F?) and humidity ratio (0.0133, like Philadelphia,
in July?), and how much sun, and clouds and wind? Lacking more numbers,
this example doesn't make much sense to me.

>	Its raining and cloudy		-on

Is the air warmer than the pool? Does it rain much when it is not cloudy? 
Are there people in the pool? ("Look out, here comes Ken, trying to save
more Btus..." :-)

>	Its sunny, warm and no wind	-off

This would hardly ever make sense, I'd guess. 

>	Its sunny, hot and humid, but thunder
>	 showers called for all afternoon 	-God knows?

God might say:

         Leave the Cover Off, If the RH is 100%, and
	 the air is at least as Warm as the Pool.
         And get out of Eden, for Dumbth.

>>Is there some quirky relationship between air temp and water heat
>>transfer that will enable me to know when its beneficial to take the
>>cover off at other times?

I think so, but it seems to me that doesn't matter,
since those conditions hardly ever happen...

>Now the answer to your first assumption. --"Blanket on at night".

"A No-Brainer," God might say, muttering something about Earthworms
being able to Figure THAT Out, and wondering why He gave us ASCII.

>A side effect of a pool blanket is that it screws up the water flow in
>the pool, particularly at the surface.  This causes stagnant areas
>that breed algae and bacteria.  Bubble pack covers are the worst for
>this.  Leaving the blanket on all the time is not good!!!

Perhaps the answer to this is 5 parts per billion of Cu ion, via a smidge of
CuSO4 in the water (which turns blonde hair green in larger quantities, and
causes human death in larger ones) or an Aqua-Air Cu/Ag ion electrolyzer,
((410) 489-5288) or a small air bubbler under the cover. (God: "And Don't
Pee in the Pool.")

>So another judgement call.  If you leave the cover off at night you
>will lose tons of heat.  I mean tons, were talking millions of BTU's.

Unless it's a warm humid night, in which case the pool might gain heat.
Millions of Btus, even, on a Really Hot Night.

>You will either have a cold unusable or at least unpleasant pool if
>you dont heat it, or a costly proposition if you heat it with oil,
>gas, elec. 

Or a solar pool heater?

>However if your smart and heat it with solar, who cares if the cover
>is off or not.

Right, who cares, if it's solar heat! Solar heat is special heat. It never
leaves the pool! Solar Btus are different from oil or gas Btus. They are
special permanent Btus. And commercial solar pool heaters are inexpensive,
and they will make you feel ecological _all over_!

>The heat you lose at night will go back in the pool costing you nothing,

Solar is truly magical! Pool size, weather, covers, none of those matter,
if you have enough solar pool heaters! Now where was that order form...?

>limiting the algea problems and reducing the
>cover on, off, on, off--you know what I mean-- problem. 

Right...

>Additional
>advantages are that you wear out the cover less and it will last
>longer and of course all the tons of heat are now in your pool and not
>in your attic so if you have AC your saving again.

Makes perfect sense.

>When the variables
>are such that the loss is bigger than you can gain during the day,
>start using the cover.

That almost makes sense...

>I hope this was simple because it sure was long---sorry about that.

It was a long response, Ken, but it was also obtuse. 

Nick



From dale@xs4all.nl Wed Oct 16 22:37:39 EDT 1996
Article: 1217 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:44:35 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3258B4E3.67C6@xs4all.nl>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd11-10.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-XS4ALL-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:36:32 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1217 alt.energy.renewable:18433 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9345

At last someone with real life experience!

I have been trying to do something like this in an area of 
the world where black pipe of any kind does not exist 
(northeast Poland). Whatever I want, I will have to import or 
carry it in from a long ways off, so I want to get it right 
at the start. 
 
What is a grundfos pump? 
How many gallons per minute are going through it?

Who makes the controler? 

What exactly is black poly piping? 'Poly' what? Is it 
flexible, is it resistant to decay from the sunlight and hot 
water? How much total space does a 1000' coil take up. Is it 
coiled tight or with space between the coils? Does it have 
any covering (glazing, glass or plastic) over it, or 
insulation under it? Would that make a significant 
difference?


From dale@xs4all.nl Wed Oct 16 22:37:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1218 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:45:08 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3258B504.45C2@xs4all.nl>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd11-10.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-XS4ALL-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:37:05 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1218 alt.energy.renewable:18434 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9346

At last someone with real life experience!

I have been trying to do something like this in an area of 
the world where black pipe of any kind does not exist 
(northeast Poland). Whatever I want, I will have to import or 
carry it in from a long ways off, so I want to get it right 
at the start. 
 
What is a grundfos pump? 
How many gallons per minute are going through it?

Who makes the controler? 

What exactly is black poly piping? 'Poly' what? Is it 
flexible, is it resistant to decay from the sunlight and hot 
water? How much total space does a 1000' coil take up. Is it 
coiled tight or with space between the coils? Does it have 
any covering (glazing, glass or plastic) over it, or 
insulation under it? Would that make a significant 
difference?
dale@xs4all.nl


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1219 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 7 Oct 1996 09:01:32 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 167
Message-ID: <53auvc$np2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <538mdn$ge9@faith.total.net> <53a3a5$nmf@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1219 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9348

Ken Tait <heliocol@infobahnos.com> wrote:
 
>>A pool blanket reduces heat loss by   A) reducing evaporation.
 
God (big G) replied via god (NP), assuming He wasn't making this up:

>...Here's one version of a formula for the ratio of heat loss by convection
>to the heat loss by evaporation, for a pond, independent of windspeed, from
>p 664 of Duffie and Beckman's 1991 _Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes_:
 
>Qc   0.001(Tp-Ta)     where Tp and Ta are pond and ambient temps (F) and
>-- = ------------           Pwp and Pa are vapor pressures at the pond
>Qe     Pwp - Pa             surface and ambient vapor pressure in inches
>                            of mercury, 29.9" Hg being 1 atmosphere. 

If Tp > Ta, it looks like we have heat loss by convection and evaporation,
since Pa has to be less than Pwp, since the pool surface air is saturated
with water, and warmer air can hold more water than colder air, right?

When should we take the pool cover off on a day in October in Phila, with an
average temp of 56.4 F, daily min, 46.4, daily max, 66.3, record min, 35,
record max, 96 F, average humidity ratio, 0.007, and average 1020 Btu/ft^2/d
of sun that falls on a horizontal surface, if the pool temp were 80 F?

On an average day, we might take off the cover and gain 30 Btu/ft^2/hr of
solar heat, at noon, and lose (80-66.3)1ft^2/R1 = 13.7 Btu/hour by conduction.
Pwp(80F)=exp(17.863-9621/(80+460)) = 1.079" Hg, or 1.033 from page 6.4 of the
1993 ASHRAE HOF, and Pa=29.921/(1+0.62198/0.007) = 0.333" Hg, so we'd lose
1000(1.079-0.333)/(80-66.3) = 54.45 times more heat by evaporation than by
convection, ie another 746 Btu/hr-ft^2, losing a total of 760 Btu/hr-ft^2
and gaining 30 Btu/hr-ft^2, maybe, for a total loss of 730 Btu/hr. We might
evaporate 3/4 lb of water per hour per square foot of pool this way. We might 
be able to evaporate 500 gallons of water, if we did this over an 8 hour
average October day with a 24'x36' pool. So it looks like this strategy won't
work very well in Phila, on an average October day.

How close would the air temp have to be to the pool temp, to make it worth
taking the "solar pool cover" off? Looks like the breakeven point is when 

30 = (80-Ta)(1+1000(exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460))-0.333)), or 
   = (80-Ta)(333-1000(exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)), ignoring convection,
   = 26640 - 80,000 exp(...) - 333 Ta + 1000 Ta exp(...), or
   = 26640 - 333 Ta - 1000(80-Ta)exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)), or

Ta - 3(80-Ta)exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)) = 79.91. Hmmm. 

If Tp = Ta, there will be no convection loss, right? And if the
ambient air is not 100% humid, there will be evaporation heat loss.  
 
Does this equation apply when the air is warmer than the water, ie Ta > Tp?
There's an old reference: Bowen, I. S. Physical Review, 27B, 779 (1926)
"The Ratio of Heat Loss by Conduction and by Evaporation from Any
Water Surface." The title does not mention condensation, or talk about
heat gain at all, or suggest water can lose heat by evaporation and
gain by convection at the same time, but hey, why not?

>What else? Clausius-Clapeyron: ln Vp = 17.863-9621/(T+460),
>and humidity ratio W = 0.62198 Pw/(P-Pw). And Qe is roughly 
>(Tp-Ta)(2+V/2) Btu/hr-ft^2 with a windspeed of V mph. And a
>clear sky can suck heaps o' radiative heat out of a pool.

Baruch Givoni has measured roofs that are 10 C cooler than surrounding air,
on clear nights. If the wind blows, it warms up the roof. Seems like this
would happen on a clear day, too, as another form of heat loss.
Why is the sky blue? Why are "solar pool covers" blue? 

>>A pool blanket reduces heat GAIN by   C) Shading the pool.
 
>It might "shade" the pool by reflecting and absorbing 10% or 20% of the sun
>that falls on the cover... some of that eventually ends up in the pool...
>So we might take the pool cover off when the sun is shining if we believed
>that the increased gain (30 Btu/hr-ft^2, ie 10% of the peak solar input?)
>would be more than the 1 Btu/hr-ft^2-F increased loss by R1 conduction and 
>evaporation (which might be much more than that.) 

A perfectly transparent pool cover would not "shade the pool," nor would
a perfectly conductive one, I guess. "Solar pool covers" are close to both.

>>Examples:  Assume pool is at 80F.
 
>With what air temp (80 F?) and humidity ratio (0.0133, like Philadelphia,
>in July?), and how much sun, and clouds and wind? 
 
Humidity ratio (W) is the ratio of water weight/dry air weight. Perhaps
NREL characterizes humidity by monthly average humidity ratios for various
places in their _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ since W depends
less on air temperature than relative humidity (RH). Perhaps this says
there's a certain amount of water in the atmosphere, in a particular city,
and if the air temp goes up, RH goes down, and vice-versa, unless
condensation or evaporation occur, eg to or from swimming pools.

>>	Its sunny, warm and no wind	-off
 
If the air is warmer than the pool, and the air is moving, the pool gains
heat by convection, and loses heat by evaporation, right? If the air is warm
enough and humid enough, the pool gains heat by condensation, right? How warm,
and how humid? Would we ever want the pool warmer when that happens? Maybe.

>>>Is there some quirky relationship between air temp and water heat
>>>transfer that will enable me to know when its beneficial to take the
>>>cover off at other times?
 
Sure. I wonder what that relationship is. 

Nick

  The main point is I want you to have fun in doing what you are trying to
  do for yourself or India or whatever. There is in fact no agenda that is
  or has to be laid out by me, and you follow it. You are self motivated by
  your fun and curiosity. Let me tell you a story.

  When I joined TIFR, we worked (or played) in a place called Holiday Camp.
  We were entitled to 90 days vacation in an year. So we were called 
  vacation officers in Holiday camp. We were not assigned any jobs. No
  agenda. We used to frequent the coffee tables, then magazine sections,
  then lunch, gossip, then coffee, and by 3pm, it was time to go. After six
  months of such fun, the fun became boring. We started wondering: why the
  heck we were being paid at all? From then on the story was entirely
  different. Work became play and play became work.

  Please note: it is not my project you are doing. It is your project,
  whatever that you are doing for the fun of doing it. You do not have to
  prove or disprove my ideas. You generate your own and be self referred.
  This is what I would like to see happen.
						Sastry

  Guruji feels that it will be imporant to teach organisational skills,
  team spirit and bonding, since the schools are teaching other standard
  educational aspects such as reading, writing and arithmetic. We all hear
  of how we Indians don't do well in groups, right? There is the well-known
  story of the Indian crabs. Also, someone was saying a few days ago that
  "one Indian equals three Japanese, but three Indians equal one Japanese".
  Not that we want to compete and beat the others, but the Japanese do seem
  to offer a valuable lesson to us here, in making the group (Japan Inc)
  an important entity. Guruji has been very impressed by the Japanese school
  next door, where the kids spend a few hours everyday in the sun, doing
  various group exercises such as forming patterns, then reorganising 
  themsleves etc. (the kind we see in parades). Guruji feels it will be
  good for us work on fun themes that involve group work and hence teach
  the value of this. 

  Some ideas we were discussing here were: have a set of circles each of
  some given colour, organised in some initial pattern (say a set of
  parallel lines). Then "morph" this into some other pattern, by moving the
  circles appropriately. This is a symbolic representation of the Japanese
  children's daily exercise. Each group (or child) is  assigned a certain
  colour, and by moving their circles appropriately, they see how a pattern
  froms by their individual moves. Or maybe, they are given building blocks
  to build a house--one child puts them together, another paints, another
  takes care of the environment around the house etc. Maybe we can start off
  creating group puzzles and activities like this that are fun for the kids,
  then maybe make them software packages that the children work with. 

  I think this can also help us enhance our group activity: I think many of
  us really dream of contributing to the work of SVT (or other such groups)
  and have largely similar goals, but we do seem to become unorganised and
  unfocussed at times, right? Maybe projects such as this will help us split
  the work appropriately through the Internet, and jointly brainstorm etc.

                                                   Aravind

  Thanks Aravind, this message itself tries to incorporate the group spirit
  we are talking about. Together, we can fly much higher than any one of us
  individually can (as long as we sit in each other's laps :-) Have fun!

						   Sastry



From stuart@ll.mit.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:42 EDT 1996
Article: 1220 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!llnews.ll.mit.edu!usenet
From: stuart@ll.mit.edu (Joseph Scott Stuart)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: 07 Oct 1996 14:35:30 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <STUARTS.96Oct7103530@pickering.llan>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net>
	<32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET>
	<32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
	<Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>
In-reply-to: "Mr. Sorta Grumpy"'s message of Sat, 5 Oct 1996 08:19:40 -0400
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30171 alt.energy.renewable:18437 alt.solar.thermal:1220


In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu> "Mr. Sorta Grumpy" <mecran01@homer.louisville.edu> writes:


>This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
>permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
>a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
>which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
>that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

>From  the BBC in the last few days: Another use for chicken (and
turkey) droppings is, apparently, to burn them to produce
electricity.  There is a power plant somewhere in Britain doing this.

scott



From ceparch0@island.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:43 EDT 1996
Article: 1221 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.island.net!dyn26.victoria.island.net!user
From: ceparch0@island.net (L.A. Osolin)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:09:14 -0800
Organization: Carl E. Peterson Architect Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <ceparch0-0710961409150001@dyn26.victoria.island.net>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET> <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn26.victoria.island.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30202 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9354 alt.energy.renewable:18446 alt.solar.thermal:1221

In article
<Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>, "Mr.
Sorta Grumpy" <mecran01@homer.louisville.edu> wrote:

> This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
> permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
> a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
> which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
> that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

There was a TV news broadcast (last month I belive) from BCTV in
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
which showed the progress of an experiment of feeding chicken manure to
cattle. It was
successful in that it was providing a good food supplement and giving
commercial egg
producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.


From petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Oct 16 22:37:43 EDT 1996
Article: 1222 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!scream.ing.com!freenet!petroski
From: Brian K Petroski <petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us>
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:45:18 -0500
Organization: gofast.net -- ISDN ISP for MPLS/STPL
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961007133921.24760B-100000@freenet>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET> <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.msp.mn.us
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: petroski@freenet
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30204 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9355 alt.energy.renewable:18448 alt.solar.thermal:1222

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Mr. Sorta Grumpy wrote:

> This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
> permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
> a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
> which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
> that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

     Thank you for reminding me of this.  I do recall seeing something
about this years ago.  I had already planned to have a few chickens and an
aquaculture pond but had forgotten about this simple method of linking
them together. 

> I'm not sure what ate the carp droppings.  At the risk of waxing too 

     In actuallity, I don't think the carp even eat the chicken 
droppings.  I believe how it works is that the droppings of both carp and 
chickens promote the growth of algea which encourages zoolplankton and 
insect larva which the carp eat.

> I've noticed the tone of this group changing recently too.  It's gone 
> from being somewhat apolitical and pragmatic to sort of unfocused.  I 
> believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 
> of this group.

     I haven't been in this group very long, but I am certainly more 
interested in the pragmatic applications of how to build systems myself 
than about the politics.



			    Brian Petroski
			Just your stereotypical
			      polysexual,
			       bisexual
			    solitary pagan
		       from St. Paul, Minnesota




From tssinc@mail.idt.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:45 EDT 1996
Article: 1223 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.idt.net!news
From: tssinc@mail.idt.net (Jerry Chase)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:44:14 GMT
Organization: IDT Corporation
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53bto5$842@News.IDT.NET>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET> <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu> <ceparch0-0710961409150001@dyn26.victoria.island.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-6.ts-2.mia.idt.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30207 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9357 alt.energy.renewable:18449 alt.solar.thermal:1223

ceparch0@island.net (L.A. Osolin) wrote:

>In article
><Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>, "Mr.
>Sorta Grumpy" <mecran01@homer.louisville.edu> wrote:

>> This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
>> permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
>> a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
>> which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
>> that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

>There was a TV news broadcast (last month I belive) from BCTV in
>Vancouver, B.C. Canada
>which showed the progress of an experiment of feeding chicken manure to
>cattle. It was
>successful in that it was providing a good food supplement and giving
>commercial egg
>producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.

I hesitate to think where they are planning to get rid of the cattle
manure... <g>

My grandfather had a farm that I visited regularly as a child.  Cattle
are singularly stupid animals.  This sounds like something a cow would
enjoy.




From guymacon@deltanet.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:45 EDT 1996
Article: 1224 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.deltanet.com!usenet
From: guymacon@deltanet.com (Guy Macon)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
Date: 5 Oct 1996 15:53:54 GMT
Organization: Electronics Engineer
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <5360ai$r00@news03.deltanet.com>
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net> <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET> <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ana1043.deltanet.com
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30211 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9362 alt.energy.renewable:18450 alt.solar.thermal:1224

In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu>, 
mecran01@homer.louisville.edu said...
>
>I've noticed the tone of this group changing recently too.  It's gone 
>from being somewhat apolitical and pragmatic to sort of unfocused.  I 
>believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 
>of this group.

I think I know the reason.

Your message was crossposted to:

Newsgroups: 
misc.consumers.frugal-living
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
alt.energy.renewable
alt.solar.thermal

These are all different communities.  By crossposting to them all,
you get unfocused discussions.  I read sci.engr.heat-vent-ac, and
it is *very* focused, except when diluted by crossposts.

Try this: trim your "Newsgroups:" line to just the newsgroup you read,
then consider those posts that are not crossposted.  As a group, you
will find the uncrossposted subset of messages to be the kind you like.
If you can convince others to trim newsgroups, your newsgroup will
become more enjoyable to read.


The purpose of different newsgroups is to focus discussion.

Excessive crossposting destroys that purpose.



From sylvan@cyberhighway.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1225 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.psc.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!iag.net!news.misty.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cyberhighway.net!user1.cyberhighway.net!sylvan
From: sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Date: 6 Oct 1996 23:20:17 GMT
Organization: Visualize Whirled Peas
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <539erh$6bq$3@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> <5365k5$lc6@loach.cichlid.com> <3256FEDD.7205@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: user1.cyberhighway.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1225 alt.energy.renewable:18452

Will Stewart (wstewart@patriot.net) wrote:
>The new ideas come from persons who apply real knowledge in producing
>prototypes, testing them, and then improving them.  By no means are all
>of Nick's ideas screwball, but innovation is "95% perspiration, 5%
>inspiration".

Interesting choice of a quote...  Thomas Edison, who, if you will recall,
was constantly coming up with ideas widely critisized as screwball or
worse.  Many of them didn't pan out.  The few that did are greatly
appreciated.  If even 99% of what Nick comes up with is garbage, the
remaining 1% is appreciated.

Of course, we do need your side also Will...  Can't let any crazy
impractical geniuses have free run of the place, even with a good idea!

sdb


From sylvan@cyberhighway.net Wed Oct 16 22:37:47 EDT 1996
Article: 1226 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cyberhighway.net!user1.cyberhighway.net!sylvan
From: sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 8 Oct 1996 03:51:13 GMT
Organization: Visualize Whirled Peas
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <53cj3h$flc$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <3258B504.45C2@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: user1.cyberhighway.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1226 alt.energy.renewable:18457 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9371

dale (dale@xs4all.nl) wrote:
>What exactly is black poly piping? 'Poly' what? Is it 

black polyethylene

>flexible,

So-so.  Won't do sharp bends, but does bend somewhat.

>is it resistant to decay from the sunlight and hot 

Sunlight - not impervious, but resistant.  Hot water?  Somewhat.

>water? How much total space does a 1000' coil take up. Is it 

A lot.

sdb


From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:48 EDT 1996
Article: 1227 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n2tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:19:45 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <53bbem$rpc@news.pathcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts2l9.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1227 alt.energy.renewable:18459 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9372

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
>McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
>climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
>do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
>skiing.

>I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
>small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water, 
>circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
>exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof 
>temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
>solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
>years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
>off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
>sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
>always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
>enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
>pool in late May and close it in early September.


>-- 
>Richard C. Lambert                      800 Brenner Avenue
>President                               Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
>R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.         (612) 483-1492
>Energy Conservation Consulting Engr     lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu

Dear Mr. Lambert

Thankyou for posting your experience. Actually it is a strong
supporting case for the "discussion" I have been having with Mr. Pine.

Your system which uses poly pipe sounds very typical of most
do-it-yourself systems -although larger by a factor of ten - which is
good! Many do-it-yourselfers will only install 100 - 300 feet of pipe
(not 4000 like you) and make the same claims about performance as you.
Unfortunately their systems aren't capable of heating that well.
(thermal physics raises it's practical head.!<)

The only caution I suggest about coils of pipe, is being sure to drain
them completely before freezing weather. Poly pipe is not made to be
exposed to the sun (it's designed to be buried) and as a result it
hardens after 2-3 years, and will split if it is frozen full of water.
On a flat roof it may not be too hard to blow the pipe out. On a
sloped roof, it is very hard to blow the water out of the bottom half
of the loops of coil.

PS. This thread went in this direction because I was recommending the
use of conventional, manufactured, solar pool heating panels.

Andrew McKegney



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:49 EDT 1996
Article: 1228 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n2tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:45:21 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <53bcun$sn5@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <324EE3EB.75A4@patriot.net> <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com> <532ssu$2u8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts9l1.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
> 
>>In these posts I've felt like I'm battling someone who isn't really
>>looking for practical answers.

>And I feel I'm talking with someone who has no practical answers to sell.

>>I would appear he has a plastic film fixation.

>I don't see that in my DSM IV.

>>I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of applications,

>Not so limited, I think. There is this very large and successful greenhouse
>industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the solar heating industry. Why? 

>Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential sunspaces, and the prices varied
>from $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film greenhouses cost less than
>$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar heaters. This difference 
>is very remarkable to me. If commerical growers had to use residential
>sunspaces, they would be out of business in a year. I think the fact that
>people heat houses with residential sunspaces is economically crippling
>the solar house heating industry, don't you?

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "solar house heating
industry". There is also no need for one if houses were built better -
as you point out Steve Baer points out later in this post.

>Pools seem different. The problem there seems to be the imbalance between
>too little insulation and too much emphasis on pool heating, like bailing
>a boat with big holes in the bottom. Perhaps pool owners are so rich,
>they don't care about the money it takes to heat a pool. Available products
>are not suitable for pool heating, as a system. Is that because of a lack
>of industrial leadership, or a lack of market demand, or both? Or is it
>just momentum and ignorance. Somebody should look at swimming pool heating
>_systems_, a subject which includes insulation (surprise.)

Pool owners tend to be on the better end of the financial scale, but
pools are a middle class phenom, which is why there are so many pools.
Available products are exactly suitable for heating pools. Solar pool
heaters when used in conjunction with a solar pool balnket can replace
the need for a gas or oil pool heater for the season 95% of pool
owners want. Most pool owners do not want to use their pools when the
air temperature makes being outside -wet and mostly naked -
uncomfortable. If people desire that experience they will install a
spa or hot tub and keep it at 104 F. (Which perhaps I have to point
out to you is impractical for a full-sized pool)

>Steve Baer recently wrote that the greatest discovery of solar heating
>investigators has been that if you use lots and lots of insulation, you
>need very little heat for a house, from the sun or any other source :-)

I have lived in my retrofitted R-2000 house for the last 10 years.
Super-insulated, and reasonalbly airtight 1800 ft^2, for $250 worth of
natural gas per winter season. Nice large insulated (glass) sunspace
and windows on the South-West side. 

>Pool people do not seem to have discovered that yet. Steve has also
>written that, in a way, he enjoys repeating obvious truths to people
>who won't listen. I don't.

>>but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar needs is absurd.

>Nobody suggested that.

>>There are many good solar products on the market, and many dedicated
>>and experienced solar companies out there. It is still a buyer beware
>>market, and the best defense is to become informed and educated about
>>solar before looking to buy something. I would hope that this
>>newsgroup strives to achieve that purpose for its' readers. I know
>>that's what I'm trying to do.

>That's one purpose I had in mind when I created this newsgroup.

>Another is to focus on basics, and cut through the hype.

Perhaps focus on the facts. There are more people out there looking
for products and services than people who want to build it themselves.
Both approachs should be encouraged.

Some of my best customers are those who showed the interest and energy
to build a do-it-yourself system. Once they had tasted what solar had
the potential to do, and realized they didn't have the skills, time or
experience to do-it-themselves, they contacted professionals in the
field and purchased a system from them.

Andrew McKegney





From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:50 EDT 1996
Article: 1229 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n2tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:49:48 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts9l1.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1229 alt.architecture.alternative:8384 alt.energy.renewable:18462 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9374

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
> 
>>>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>>>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>>>>>>available solar pool heating products.


>>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.

>No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)

>Nick

96:10:07

I can see that this is a complete waste of my time. You are not
interested in providing people with information about practical (read
currently available) solar systems. You only wish to promote you're
untried & unproven concepts (using plastic films for everything) as
being better than everything else.

You have completely ignored the fact that solar companies do not
design, sell or install swimming pools. You have no comprehension of
the swimming pool marketplace. Yet, you feel you can speak with
authority about solar pool heating in the real world!

You've never owned a pool, you've never built a solar pool heater,
you've acknowledged you are ignorant of the practicalities of
operating a pool. Yet, you feel you can advise pool owners.

You seem to think that you can pull some formulae from a text and
figure out what can be done in the real world. Your ideas are not
inovative, they are ill-conceived. You have no grasp of the real
limitations of working with pools, pool owners, or for that matter
pool-owners' houses.

People within the pool industry are constantly inventing and marketing
new products. These are people who know the limitations and are trying
to stretch them. Yes, eventually, there may come a time when an R-10
pool blanket is a real, marketable, item. But as I said, it's not
likely to be in my lifetime.

To wildly proclaim that people should't heat their pools with
manuafactured solar products because they should be saving heat in
their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.

Solar pool heating is the most cost-effective type of solar in North
America. It has the potential to save millions of dollars worth of
energy per year, and prevent the creation of millions of tons of
pollution per year. Intead of promoting it you want to spit on it
because YOU feel that it's too expensive.

The market decides what is too expensive. A two to three payback is
very reasonable. If you have a better ,cheaper, product bring it to
the market, it would be welcome by both consumers and dealers.

To conclude, put-up or shut-up.

Respectfully

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.
President. Solar Evaluation Services Inc.
20 year member Solar Energy Society of Canada Inc.
Past Member International Solar Energy Society
Member National Spa & Pool Institute of Canada
Member Canadian Solar Industries Association



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:51 EDT 1996
Article: 1230 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n2tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:10:57 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <53blfn$eu@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> <5365k5$lc6@loach.cichlid.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts9l1.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1230 alt.architecture.alternative:8385 alt.energy.renewable:18463 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9375

aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) wrote:

>In <32565479.35C7@patriot.net> Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> writes:

>>Nick Pine wrote:
>>> 
>>> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> drones on:
>>> 
>>> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>>> >>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>>> >>>>>available solar pool heating products.


>>Then time's a-wastin'!  Get your product prototyped and then
>>mass-produced, then you will make a fortune and you won't have to bore
>>us with these pointless arguments about the cheapest possible pool
>>heaters.  People with pools aren't normally interested in old tires and
>>boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.

>Regarding solar heating of pools and houses I would estimate that of the
>people in the US:

>90% Couldn't care less

Pool owners care if they heat their pools

I would suggest that ratios here are more like :

1% couldn't care less
94 % care, but don't know what to do
3.5 % will use off-the-shelf solar
1.5 % will do-it-themselves, first, and then switch to manufactured
products

>9%  Will use off the shelf solar products with guarantees installed by
>    licensed contractors
>1%  Will develop their own systems.

>Andrew, Will and company cater to the middle group. Nick to the last
>group.

>Funny thing is, people like Andrew and Will were saying the same thing
>about any kind of solar heating a few decades ago because there weren't
>any products. The viewpoint is summarized as: "If I can't buy it off 
>the shelf then I don't want it"

Two decades ago I was trying to build my own solar pool heating
systems. They worked, sort-of. I then worked for two solar equipment
manufacturers. I am familiar with the processes of invention and
inovation.

>People like Nick are where the new ideas and products come from. Thanks
>to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products 
>to sell today.

Nicks' ideas aren't new. They are ill-conceived, based upon his lack
of knowledge of the concept, the materials, the swimming pool, the
pool owner and the market in general.

The best people to develop new products are those who have worked in
the industry for some time and know its' parameters.

>I appreciate the information that all parties post to this newsgroup.
>Will and Andrew for information about what products are available, how
>they work, and the techniques to install them. Nick for new ideas and 
>examples of how to do the necessary calculations.

>Thanks to all of you.

>-- 
>Best regards,
>Andy Burgess
>aab@cichlid.com

Thanks for the thanks.

Andrew McKegney



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:52 EDT 1996
Article: 1231 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 8 Oct 1996 10:11:28 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1231 alt.energy.renewable:18464 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9376

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>What Mr. Pine doesn't (want to) appreciate is that (existing) solar
>blankets -as simple as they are- are a bother to use, even with a roller,

Au contraire, I appreciate that... 

>and that most pool owner really don't want to look at them.

Perhaps that would change if they looked like a slate patio.

>They like the look of the water swirling and sparkling in the sun.

I enjoy watching house fires, sometimes. 

>A very important point about blankets has not be mentioned by others.
>That is the blankets don't work worth beans if they are wet!

We already talked about that, as regards R-value. Wet insulation has little.
Even 2% moisture in fiberglass insulation reduces its R-value by half, and
it's not hard to accumulate that much moisture in a house wall, if the vapour
barrier is not perfect. Wind is a problem with fiberglass too. Foam is better
this way, but R-value tests first developed and standardized by fiberglass 
insulation manufacturers use perfectly still, dry air for testing both, so
we don't hear much about the advantages of foam over fiberglass, in the
presence of water vapour and wind.  

>As I stated earlier blankets work by reducing evapouration. If there
>is water on top of them, that water evapourates,and pulls heat from
>the pool right through the blanket. It's like having holes in the blanket.

Good thought. Can we store heat in our slate pool cover patio all day,
and then submerge it briefly for a dip in the pool at dusk, to cool off?

Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 

Or build some air pockets under the cement slabs with some PVC drainage pipe
($3.88 for 4" pipe 10' long, at Home Depot), drilling a hole in the bottom
of the pipe to push air out of the pipe through a small piece of air tubing
stuck in the pipe, if you want to walk on water. Join the air pipes end
to end to attach the slabs? Use some imagination.

>During periods of bad weather the average pool owner doesn't swim, and
>unfortunately they don't watch the chemicals in their pool. If the pool
>is covered with a blanket it will actually stay reasonably warm...

Suppose our pool starts out at 80 F, and only loses heat through its 24 x 36'
R1 "solar pool cover" over a cloudy week in October, in Philadelphia, with
an average air temperature of 56.4 F. R = 1/768 and C is about 24x36x6x64
= 332K pounds of water, 166 tonnes. So RC = 332K/768 = 432 hours, 18 days.
Nice :-) So T = 56.4 + (80-56.4) exp(-t/18), where t is in days, 78.7 F
after 1 day, 77.5 after 2, and 72.4 after 7 days.

With an R10 pool cover, we'd have an RC time constant of 180 days, so
T = 56.4 + (80-56.4) exp(-t/180), where t is in days, 79.9 after 1 day,
79.8 after 2, and 79.1 after 7 days with the cover on. Hmmm.

In December, we might have T = 35.8 + (80-35.8) exp(-t/180), 79.8 after 1 day,
79.5 after 2, and 78.3 after 7 days with an R10 cover on. Or T = 35.8 +
(80-35.8) exp(-t/18), 77.6 after 1 day, 75.4 after 2, and 65.8 after 7 days
under an R1 cover. Not too bad, but too cold for swimming.

During a long string of average December days, with some sun, a square foot
of this pool with the perfectly insulated side walls and R1 "solar pool cover"
would absorb about 500 Btu/ft^2/day of sun and lose 24(T-35.8)/R1, so
T = 35.8 + 500/24 = 56.6 F. Not warm enough. Adding an overhead reflector like
a 15' tall commercial plastic film greenhouse with the north poly film painted
white or ferrocement over an interesting half-dome armature made of 2x4s and
chicken wire might add 800 Btu/ft^2/day so T = 35.8 + 1300/24 = 90 F. Hey.  

But with uninsulated sidewalls, we need a better pool cover, Andy, eg an
automatically-movable one that collects sun during the day and really
holds it in at night... 

>NEVER, NEVER swim on or over a plastic film pool cover. Many people have
>drowned from trying this. Mr. Pine has made a very dangerous and foolish
>suggestion in an earlier post about having a plastic cover sink to the
>bottom of the pool.

I have NEVER, NEVER suggested swimming under a pool cover
when it is on the bottom of the pool.

Especially a slate one. Unless one is a Mafia leader in disfavour...

("Guido decided to investigate the pool cover, from underneath.")

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:53 EDT 1996
Article: 1232 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 8 Oct 1996 07:31:42 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1232 alt.architecture.alternative:8386 alt.energy.renewable:18465 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9377

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> concludes, at last, perhaps:
 
>>>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>>>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
 
>>No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)
 
>I can see that this is a complete waste of my time.

I didn't think you would like to talk about solar arithmetic,
Although you did write that you would like to, "anytime."

>You are not interested in providing people with information...

I'll ignore these untruths.

>You seem to think that you can pull some formulae from a text and
>figure out what can be done in the real world.

Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

>To wildly proclaim that people should't heat their pools with
>manuafactured solar products because they should be saving heat in
>their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.

I agree. Altho I've never done that, wildly or otherwise. 

>Solar pool heating is the most cost-effective type of solar in North
>America. It has the potential to save millions of dollars worth of
>energy per year...

And it has been and has had for umpteen years.
So why don't people do more of it? 

>To conclude, put-up or shut-up.
>
>Respectfully

Thanks for saying "respectfully." 

>Andrew McKegney C.E.T.
>President. Solar Evaluation Services Inc.
>20 year member Solar Energy Society of Canada Inc.
>Past Member International Solar Energy Society
>Member National Spa & Pool Institute of Canada
>Member Canadian Solar Industries Association

Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:54 EDT 1996
Article: 1233 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 8 Oct 1996 07:59:08 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1233 alt.energy.renewable:18468 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9380

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> estimates:
 
>Yes you should use the pool cover at night if you want the pool to
>stay the same temperature. If your pool is warmer than the air temp,
>it will lose very little heat overnight, conversely...

Let's see: on a single October night, where I live, with an average air
temp of 46.4 F, an 80 F pool with 24' x 36' R1 cover would lose about  
16 hours (80-46.4)24x36/R1 = 464,486.4 Btu, the heat equivalent of about
4 gallons of oil. How many 8 oz. cups of tea could we make with that heat,
starting with 62 F water? Heating each half-pound of water to 212 F takes
1/2(212-62) = 75 Btu, so we could make 464,486/75 = 6,193 cups of tea.

A kitchen match contains about 1 Btu, so we could also do this by standing
under the pool and burning 464,486 matches per day, ie 19,353 matches per
hour or 322 matches per minute or 5 matches per second, for 24 hours a day.

Hey, renewable energy! :-)

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:55 EDT 1996
Article: 1234 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 8 Oct 1996 08:15:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <53dgke$485@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <538mdn$ge9@faith.total.net> <53a3a5$nmf@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53auvc$np2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1234 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9381

Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
 
>How close would the air temp have to be to the pool temp, to make it worth
>taking the "solar pool cover" off? Looks like the breakeven point is when 
>
>30 = (80-Ta)(1+1000(exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460))-0.333)), or 
>   = (80-Ta)(333-1000(exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)), ignoring convection,
>   = 26640 - 80,000 exp(...) - 333 Ta + 1000 Ta exp(...), or
>   = 26640 - 333 Ta - 1000(80-Ta)exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)), or
>
>Ta - 3(80-Ta)exp(17.863-9621/(Ta+460)) = 79.91. Hmmm. 
 
Aha, shoulda writ:

How close would the air temp have to be to the pool temp, to make it worth
taking the "solar pool cover" off? Looks like the breakeven point is when 
30 = (80-Ta)(1+1000(1.079-0.333)) = 747 (80-Ta) = 59760 - 747 Ta, so 
Ta = (59760-30)/747 = 79.96 F. So it might make sense to remove the cover
to let more sun shine into the pool, if the air is no more than 0.04 F
cooler than the pool, and there is no wind, in Philadelphia in October.

Probably not worth the trouble, eh?

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:56 EDT 1996
Article: 1235 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: 8 Oct 1996 10:33:35 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <53donv$59u@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com> <532ssu$2u8@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bcun$sn5@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>>Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential sunspaces, and the prices varied
>>from $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film greenhouses cost less than
>>$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar heaters. This difference 
>>is very remarkable to me. If commerical growers had to use residential
>>sunspaces, they would be out of business in a year. I think the fact that
>>people heat houses with residential sunspaces is economically crippling
>>the solar house heating industry, don't you?
>
>As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "solar house heating industry".

I think there is. Many people want to heat their houses with the sun, even
today, and turn to architects for passive solar houses, or energy-efficient
houses. There are many ways to make a house energy efficient. For instance,
don't put a heater inside. Or a woodstove, or a heat pump. Nothing except
solar heating, with a COP of 1,000 or more.

>There is also no need for one if houses were built better -

I disagree. Perhaps you would say there would be no need for sailboats, 
if motorboats were efficient enough. There's something special about
just using powerful natural forces with smart low-power controls and
well-designed minimal elegant structures.

>>Pools seem different...

>Available products are exactly suitable for heating pools.

But not for insulating them, which is a part of the heating job,
as you point out with houses.

>Most pool owners do not want to use their pools when the
>air temperature makes being outside -wet and mostly naked - uncomfortable.

Japanese people do. Russians do. Icelanders do. Albertans do. Germans do.
Nobody wanted to use the telephone, in 1880.

>If people desire that experience they will install a spa or hot tub
>and keep it at 104 F.

That's the simplest choice, among available alternatives. 

>Which perhaps I have to point out to you is impractical for a full-sized pool

Bucky Fuller was carefully taught in school that people can never fly,
with or without airplanes... So, is a 104 F pool impractical in December? 
What makes it impractical. You have my plans and numbers. Where's the
problem? Let's fix it together. In rhetoric, an assertion demands no more
than a counterassertion. Where are your numbers?

>>Steve Baer recently wrote that the greatest discovery of solar heating
>>investigators has been that if you use lots and lots of insulation, you
>>need very little heat for a house, from the sun or any other source :-)
>
>I have lived in my retrofitted R-2000 house for the last 10 years.
>Super-insulated, and reasonalbly airtight 1800 ft^2, for $250 worth of
>natural gas per winter season. Nice large insulated (glass) sunspace
>and windows on the South-West side. 

Nice, but why do you have a gas heater?
How much did that house cost?
How do you make hot water?

>There are more people out there looking for products and services
>than people who want to build it themselves.

Sure.

>Both approachs should be encouraged.

I don't think people should be further encouraged to buy these bailing
buckets for bottomless boats. It gives solar heating a bad name. Makes
people who are interested in solar heating look like idiots, or worse.

>Some of my best customers are those who showed the interest and energy
>to build a do-it-yourself system. Once they had tasted what solar had
>the potential to do, and realized they didn't have the skills, time or
>experience to do-it-themselves, they contacted professionals in the
>field and purchased a system from them.

No comment. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1236 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Floating pool patios
Date: 8 Oct 1996 11:08:20 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53dqp4$5k5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1236 alt.energy.renewable:18470 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9385

Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
 
>Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
>a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
>concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
>corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
>26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
>hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
>and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
>collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
>the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
>heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 

Come to think of it, you could walk on it, if the poly film cover were
sufficiently inflated. Poly film pillows on commercial greenhouses are up
to 3' thick, as inflated on 4' centers, and they hold up more than 15 psf
of snow, so a pool cover like this could be 36' tall in the middle, with a
3' rise every 2' in from the edge. We might paint the north side dark, or
hang some greenhouse shadecloth across the middle, and blow down some air
>from  the top through floatation pipes in thermal contact with the water,
to collect more solar heat. I'd clip this cover to the edge of the pool
for parties, so we don't somehow end up like Guido.

There must be a simple way to make an airtight door in the film itself...
Overlap 2 pieces of film, and slip between them to get in?   Not quite...

Nick



From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Wed Oct 16 22:37:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1237 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.vbc.net!news.mira.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:24:40 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1237 alt.energy.renewable:18475 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9392

Well thanks guys!
I'd hate to see the long and complicated answers!!!!
Nick's technospeak had me a bit baffled and the earlier response
"seems" to make some common sense to me.
I got the impression that Nick thinks that the cover should be on at
all times to prevent evaporation rather than have any exposure to
warmer air temps - is this correct. 
At all air temps??? It gets to 90F regularly in summer here but we
still like warmer water!



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:37:58 EDT 1996
Article: 1238 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 8 Oct 1996 22:39:59 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53f39v$dtq@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1238 alt.energy.renewable:18485 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9398

John Harrison <John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au> wrote:

>I got the impression that Nick thinks that the cover should be on at
>all times to prevent evaporation rather than have any exposure to
>warmer air temps - is this correct. 

This seems like the simplest strategy.  

>At all air temps??? It gets to 90F regularly in summer here but we
>still like warmer water!

If the air is humid and warm enough to warrant removing the pool cover, you 
might not want the pool warmer. You might answer this question more exactly
with a simulation, using real local weather data, or build a couple of
minipools side by side, one with and one without a cover, and control the
big pool based on the minipool performance (?) As Andy said, this is not 
a simple question, but it may well be an unimportant and insignificant one.

Nick



From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:37:59 EDT 1996
Article: 1239 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com (Hardison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 05:16:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <53fc8i$5tk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Oct 09 12:12:50 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1239 alt.energy.renewable:18486 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9399

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>
>I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
>small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water, 

I have the same set up (3000 FT) of coiled hose on my patio cover.  I
just had a nice swim this evening in 84F water (so it works).  But I
don't have a differential temperature controller like you describe.
I haven't seen any $100 controllers.  Was that years ago?  I need one
of those things!  Please post a source!

S. Hardison>



From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:00 EDT 1996
Article: 1240 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com (Hardison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 05:39:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <53fdk5$r50@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <3258B504.45C2@xs4all.nl> <53cj3h$flc$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Oct 09 12:36:05 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1240 alt.energy.renewable:18487 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9400

sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler) wrote:

>dale (dale@xs4all.nl) wrote:
>>What exactly is black poly piping? 'Poly' what? Is it 

>black polyethylene

>>flexible,

>So-so.  Won't do sharp bends, but does bend somewhat.

Actually, the 0.6 mm black poly drip irrigation hose will almost make
a 1' diameter bend.. good for coiling flat.

>>is it resistant to decay from the sunlight and hot 

>Sunlight - not impervious, but resistant.  Hot water?  Somewhat.

Sunlight?  black drip irrigation hose lasts a long time right out in
the very hot sun.  Over 5 years, I'm sure... from experience.  In
fact, I can't remember ever seeing this stuff anything worse that a
little stiff after 10 years right out in the vey hot California
central valley sun.  Pool chemicals?  Maybe that's a problem.  I don't
know yet.

>>water? How much total space does a 1000' coil take up. Is it 

>A lot.
It isn't the space, it's the square feet of surface exposed to the
sun.  A 500 foot coil donut is about 27 square feet- a 6 foot diameter
donut with a 1 foot diameter hole.  A 1000 foot coil would be a little
over 8 feet in diameter.  I have six 6-foot diameter coils for ease of
handling.  Once a 6 foot dia. coil is hot melt glued every 6 inches or
so around the coil, you can pick it up by the middle and hoist it up
on the roof.

>sdb




From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:01 EDT 1996
Article: 1241 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com (Hardison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 05:51:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53fea2$26j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <53bbem$rpc@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 08 10:47:46 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1241 alt.energy.renewable:18488 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9401

>The only caution I suggest about coils of pipe, is being sure to drain
>them completely before freezing weather. Poly pipe is not made to be
>exposed to the sun (it's designed to be buried)

I've used 1/2" black poly irrigation hose in the garden for 10 years
with nothing more serious than a little stiffness. It commonly sees 50
psi and lays in the sun year after year.  I suspect this irrigation
hose will last a lot longer as a solar collector than you're supposing
here.

> and as a result it
>hardens after 2-3 years, and will split if it is frozen full of water.

This is probably true, but where you don't worry about hard freezes,
like here in the California central valley, a lot of black hose is a
viable solution for home-brew solar pool heating.   


S. Hardison





From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:02 EDT 1996
Article: 1242 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:19:57 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts3l12.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1242 alt.energy.renewable:18490 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9403

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>>What Mr. Pine doesn't (want to) appreciate is that (existing) solar
>>blankets -as simple as they are- are a bother to use, even with a roller,

>Au contraire, I appreciate that... 

>>and that most pool owner really don't want to look at them.

>Perhaps that would change if they looked like a slate patio.

Perhaps, but they would not like trying to remove them !!

>>They like the look of the water swirling and sparkling in the sun.

>I enjoy watching house fires, sometimes. 

Say, do you like watching burning churchs too? Perhaps I should pass
your name on to authorities in Georgia.

>>A very important point about blankets has not be mentioned by others.
>>That is the blankets don't work worth beans if they are wet!

>We already talked about that, as regards R-value.
I'm not talking R value, as solar blankets have virtually none.

Note: the following is useless information for pool owners.

 Wet insulation has little.
>Even 2% moisture in fiberglass insulation reduces its R-value by half, and
>it's not hard to accumulate that much moisture in a house wall, if the vapour
>barrier is not perfect. Wind is a problem with fiberglass too. Foam is better
>this way, but R-value tests first developed and standardized by fiberglass 
>insulation manufacturers use perfectly still, dry air for testing both, so
>we don't hear much about the advantages of foam over fiberglass, in the
>presence of water vapour and wind.  

Note ends.

>>As I stated earlier blankets work by reducing evapouration. If there
>>is water on top of them, that water evapourates,and pulls heat from
>>the pool right through the blanket. It's like having holes in the blanket.

>Good thought. Can we store heat in our slate pool cover patio all day,
>and then submerge it briefly for a dip in the pool at dusk, to cool off?

>Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
>a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
>concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
>corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
>26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
>hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
>and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
>collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
>the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
>heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 

It "might" (highly unlikely) keep your pool warm, but I don't know of
many people who ae going to want to shovel the snow off the cover
before they sink it (along with the dust dirt, leaves, dead bugs,
etc.) before they go for a swim.

>Or build some air pockets under the cement slabs with some PVC drainage pipe
>($3.88 for 4" pipe 10' long, at Home Depot), drilling a hole in the bottom
>of the pipe to push air out of the pipe through a small piece of air tubing
>stuck in the pipe, if you want to walk on water. Join the air pipes end
>to end to attach the slabs? Use some imagination.

>>During periods of bad weather the average pool owner doesn't swim, and
>>unfortunately they don't watch the chemicals in their pool. If the pool
>>is covered with a blanket it will actually stay reasonably warm...

>Suppose our pool starts out at 80 F, and only loses heat through its 24 x 36'
>R1 "solar pool cover" over a cloudy week in October, in Philadelphia, with
>an average air temperature of 56.4 F. R = 1/768 and C is about 24x36x6x64
>= 332K pounds of water, 166 tonnes. So RC = 332K/768 = 432 hours, 18 days.
>Nice :-) So T = 56.4 + (80-56.4) exp(-t/18), where t is in days, 78.7 F
>after 1 day, 77.5 after 2, and 72.4 after 7 days.

Most pool owners would be very happy that their pool only lost 1-2
degrees per day with the outside temperature being only 56. As I have
pointed out, a conventional solar system will easily reheat the pool
2-4 degrees on a sunny day. (for free)

With your imaginary R10 blanket that magically appears and dissappears
>from  the pool surface without any effort by the pool owner, things
could be even better. But then this is pure fantasy.

>With an R10 pool cover, we'd have an RC time constant of 180 days, so
>T = 56.4 + (80-56.4) exp(-t/180), where t is in days, 79.9 after 1 day,
>79.8 after 2, and 79.1 after 7 days with the cover on. Hmmm.

>In December, we might have T = 35.8 + (80-35.8) exp(-t/180), 79.8 after 1 day,
>79.5 after 2, and 78.3 after 7 days with an R10 cover on. Or T = 35.8 +
>(80-35.8) exp(-t/18), 77.6 after 1 day, 75.4 after 2, and 65.8 after 7 days
>under an R1 cover. Not too bad, but too cold for swimming.

>During a long string of average December days, with some sun, a square foot
>of this pool with the perfectly insulated side walls and R1 "solar pool cover"
>would absorb about 500 Btu/ft^2/day of sun and lose 24(T-35.8)/R1, so
>T = 35.8 + 500/24 = 56.6 F. Not warm enough. Adding an overhead reflector like
>a 15' tall commercial plastic film greenhouse with the north poly film painted
>white or ferrocement over an interesting half-dome armature made of 2x4s and
>chicken wire might add 800 Btu/ft^2/day so T = 35.8 + 1300/24 = 90 F. Hey.  

>But with uninsulated sidewalls, we need a better pool cover, Andy, eg an
>automatically-movable one that collects sun during the day and really
>holds it in at night... 

>>NEVER, NEVER swim on or over a plastic film pool cover. Many people have
>>drowned from trying this. Mr. Pine has made a very dangerous and foolish
>>suggestion in an earlier post about having a plastic cover sink to the
>>bottom of the pool.

>I have NEVER, NEVER suggested swimming under a pool cover
>when it is on the bottom of the pool.

No, you have suggested swimming over the top of a submerged plastic
pool cover. Just as bad and dangerous!!!!! This is a totally stupid
idea and I hope anyone who loses a family member because of your
suggestion, sues your ass off !!!!

You are way over your head when it comes to talking about heating real
pools with solar systems. I suggest you quit before you drown.

Andrew McKegney



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:03 EDT 1996
Article: 1243 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:31:39 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <53eej6$3h0@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts3l12.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1243 alt.energy.renewable:18491 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9404

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) continues to spew:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> estimates:
> 
>>Yes you should use the pool cover at night if you want the pool to
>>stay the same temperature. If your pool is warmer than the air temp,
>>it will lose very little heat overnight, conversely...

>Let's see: on a single October night, where I live, with an average air
>temp of 46.4 F, an 80 F pool with 24' x 36' R1 cover would lose about  
>16 hours (80-46.4)24x36/R1 = 464,486.4 Btu, the heat equivalent of about
>4 gallons of oil. How many 8 oz. cups of tea could we make with that heat,
>starting with 62 F water? Heating each half-pound of water to 212 F takes
>1/2(212-62) = 75 Btu, so we could make 464,486/75 = 6,193 cups of tea.

>A kitchen match contains about 1 Btu, so we could also do this by standing
>under the pool and burning 464,486 matches per day, ie 19,353 matches per
>hour or 322 matches per minute or 5 matches per second, for 24 hours a day.

>Hey, renewable energy! :-)

A typical volume of water for a pool of those (uncommon) dimensions
would be: 24 x 36 x 5 (average depth) =4320 ft^3
Weight = 4320 x 64.2 =277344 lbs
therefore drop in pool temp = 464486btu/277344btu/degree = 1.67
degrees.

A pool owner is going to be very happy that his pool only cooled by
that much. A properly sized and installed solar system will also add
about 600,000 btu's to the pool raising the temp by 2.25 degrees.
Passive solar gain through the blanket would add to this, probably by
2 more degrees.

Andrew McKegney




From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:04 EDT 1996
Article: 1244 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:38:27 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts3l12.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1244 alt.architecture.alternative:8398 alt.energy.renewable:18492 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9405

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> concludes, at last, perhaps:
> 
>>>>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>>>>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
> 
>>>No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)
> 
>>I can see that this is a complete waste of my time.

>I didn't think you would like to talk about solar arithmetic,
>Although you did write that you would like to, "anytime."

>>You are not interested in providing people with information...

>I'll ignore these untruths.

>>You seem to think that you can pull some formulae from a text and
>>figure out what can be done in the real world.

>Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

Yes totally. It doesn't work that way . If you think it does you are
either in denial or are completely deluded.

>>To wildly proclaim that people should't heat their pools with
>>manuafactured solar products because they should be saving heat in
>>their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.

>I agree. 

>>Solar pool heating is the most cost-effective type of solar in North
>>America. It has the potential to save millions of dollars worth of
>>energy per year...

>And it has been and has had for umpteen years.
>So why don't people do more of it? 

As I have said because of ignorant bad-mouthing by people like you.
You have never explained your pathalogical hatred of manufactured
solar pool products. They work, they have been around for years, they
are very durable, and they are cost-effective.

>>To conclude, put-up or shut-up.
>>
>>Respectfully

>Thanks for saying "respectfully." 

And you still haven't put up your fictional solar system or imaginary
blanket.

>>Andrew McKegney C.E.T.
>>President. Solar Evaluation Services Inc.
>>20 year member Solar Energy Society of Canada Inc.
>>Past Member International Solar Energy Society
>>Member National Spa & Pool Institute of Canada
>>Member Canadian Solar Industries Association

>Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 

And I guess that makes you an ignorant American, Congratulations.

Andrew McKegney



From mail.crosslink.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:05 EDT 1996
Article: 1245 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: hwalker@mail.crosslink.net (Howard Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: 9 Oct 1996 03:27:45 GMT
Organization: crosslink.net
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <53f63h$eic$1@kronos.crosslink.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <324EE3EB.75A4@patriot.net> <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com>
Reply-To: mail.crosslink.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.65.34
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

In article <530s5p$lfm@news.pathcom.com>, sunone@pathcom.com says...
>
>Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>
> 
>>> I'd guess you are somewhat locked into the status quo, like many others.
>
>>Which means "you don't agree with everything that Nick Pine decries".
>
>>Cheers,
>
>>William R. Stewart
>>Member American Solar Energy Society
>>Member Electrical Vehical Association of America
>>"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.
>
>Thanks for the vote of support.
>
>In these posts I've felt like I'm battling someone who isn't really
>looking for practical answers. I would appear he has a plastic film
>fixation. I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of
>applications, but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar
>needs is absurd.
>
>And, yes, solar can be cheaper...... if you do it yourself. But... in
>all likelyhood it will be much less reliable, much less efficient and
>last for a much shorter time.
>
>There are many good solar products on the market, and many dedicated
>and experienced solar companies out there. It is still a buyer beware
>market, and the best defense is to become informed and educated about
>solar before looking to buy something. I would hope that this
>newsgroup strives to achieve that purpose for its' readers. I know
>that's what I'm trying to do.
>
>Andrew McKegney
>Member SESCI, CANSIA, NSPI of Canada
>

I purchased 3 used semi-flexible rubberized panels (4 X 10)for my pool and 
did the plumbing myself.  Total material expense was around $500.  Half the 
price of a 100K Btu propane pool heater.  Most of the practical info was 
obtained from the local library (a small one) and the most helpful info came 
>from  some of the books Ted Lucas wrote on solar energy.
On a nice sunny summer's day here in Virginia, I can raise the temperature of 
my 14,000 gallon in ground by 8 to 10 degrees.  Well worth the effort and 
cost.

Howard Walker



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:05 EDT 1996
Article: 1246 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Followup-To: alt.energy.renewable
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:44:44 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <325B902B.77EB@patriot.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-15.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1246 alt.architecture.alternative:8401 alt.energy.renewable:18496 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9410

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> concludes, at last, perhaps:
> 
> >>>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
> >>>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
> 
> >>No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)
> 
> >I can see that this is a complete waste of my time.
> 
> I didn't think you would like to talk about solar arithmetic,
> Although you did write that you would like to, "anytime."

You were simply changing the subject away from the painfully obvious.

> >You are not interested in providing people with information...
> 
> I'll ignore these untruths.

The following is *very* true from my observations of your posts;

  "You only wish to promote your untried & unproven concepts 
  (using plastic films for everything) as being better than 
  everything else."
 
> >You seem to think that you can pull some formulae from a text and
> >figure out what can be done in the real world.
> 
> Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

Without any experience in those situations.  Ever hear of an armchair
quarterback?
 
> >To wildly proclaim that people should't heat their pools with
> >manuafactured solar products because they should be saving heat in
> >their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.
> 
> I agree. Altho I've never done that, wildly or otherwise.

You have a short memory.
 
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From SHardson@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1247 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!netnews.fast.net!news.fast.net!netaxs.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: SHardson@ix.netcom.com (Hardison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating. Using existing technology
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 06:01:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <53fetj$26j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <52grf5$8uk@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pgdi$qht@news.pathcom.com> <52r65c$1h0@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mod-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 08 10:58:11 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

yea Andrew





From guymacon@deltanet.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:07 EDT 1996
Article: 1248 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!wizard.pn.com!news.gte.com!news-in.tiac.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.deltanet.com!usenet
From: guymacon@deltanet.com (Guy Macon)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 9 Oct 1996 11:56:01 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ana3122.deltanet.com
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1248 alt.energy.renewable:18500 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9411

In article <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) says:

>At all air temps??? It gets to 90F regularly in summer here but we
>still like warmer water!

I heard that in Pheonix, AZ, the set up fountains to stop
pools from getting too hot to swim in...


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1249 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 9 Oct 1996 16:07:31 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <53h0m3$rv9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <3258B504.45C2@xs4all.nl> <53cj3h$flc$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net> <53fdk5$r50@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1249 alt.energy.renewable:18501 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9413

Talked with Sven Tjernagel, who just got back from a trip. He says pool
chlorine should be no problem with EPDM rubber collectors, altho
roof pitch is, the way he builds them. He suggests no more than a 5:12
roof pitch, for an 8-10 year lifetime under two layers of glass. He imagines
that with no glass, the rubber should last 15 years or more. He sold these
things as a product for 9 years, along with their extrusions and hardware.

His collectors cost $9.30, including two layers of glass, etc, and the
largest ones are about 10' tall by 40' wide, limited by the size of the
sheet of rubber two people could carry. The Gettysburg Motel just rebuilt
their 1600 ft^2 of collectors on a new roof. Their accountant figures these
double-glazed units pay for themselves every 14 months, for domestic water
heating. That would shorten a lot for pool heaters, with no glazing or
EPDM rubber replacement. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1250 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 9 Oct 1996 15:56:45 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <53h01t$rrb@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <53fc8i$5tk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1250 alt.energy.renewable:18502 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9414

Hardison <SHardson@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
 
>I have the same set up (3000 FT) of coiled hose on my patio cover.  I
>just had a nice swim this evening in 84F water (so it works).  But I
>don't have a differential temperature controller like you describe.
>I haven't seen any $100 controllers.  Was that years ago?  I need one
>of those things!  Please post a source!

The trade price of Heliotrope General's DTT '94 Combo was $74.80, including
sensors and a 110 VAC recepticle, as of 18 months ago. (800) 552-8838.

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:09 EDT 1996
Article: 1251 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 9 Oct 1996 16:34:34 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1251 alt.energy.renewable:18503 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9415

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>>>...most pool owner really don't want to look at them.

The eyes want to look but the body does not? 
 
>>Perhaps that would change if they looked like a slate patio.
 
>Perhaps, but they would not like trying to remove them !!

Perhaps you have not had time to read the 10 lines you quoted below.
 
>>Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
>>a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
>>concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
>>corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
>>26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
>>hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
>>and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
>>collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
>>the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
>>heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 
 
>It "might" (highly unlikely) keep your pool warm, but I don't know of
>many people who ae going to want to shovel the snow off the cover
>before they sink it

Those pool owners might prefer the inflatable version, described in the
10 lines you quoted above (note the plastic film should terminate below
the water line, to make a dry floor and a good air trap) with the oblong
poly film dome 12' high in the middle, and the inside of the north half
of the plastic film painted white to reflect more sun down into the water
on top of the cover, during the day.

Should we inflate the cover with Grainger's $60 1" 140 cfm 100 watt blower,
the one used to inflate greenhouse poly film pillows? Or the leaf blower
that Sears Hardware is now selling for $49.95 (8.5 A 110V, 340 cfm at 150 mph)
We might make a pressure switch with a manometer and a floating magnet and
reed switch. Or find a 13 year old science fair student or a serious solar
pool heating professional to solve this pressure control problem. Another
cordless 12 VDC (allowing easy backup power) 16 A version blows 70 cfm at
110 mph, which might raise a 24' x 36' slate pool cover from the bottom in
2 minutes, or turn on for a few seconds every 4 hours to keep it afloat.

Their $69.95 wet/dry shop vac might make a good bubble generator, with the
vacuum hose connected to the top of the cover and a bubble sensor to turn
the vac on when there are no bubbles at the top.

Use some imagination, Andy.
 
>With your imaginary R10 blanket that magically appears and dissappears
>from the pool surface without any effort by the pool owner, things
>could be even better. But then this is pure fantasy.

Like telephones or moonwalking or wireless electronic doorbells or plastic
film greenhouses? Perhaps you imagine skyscrapers and airplanes are built
by trial and error :-) Some things are fairly predictable. Like you.

Nick

Wise men learn more from fools
Than fools learn from wise men.  --fortune cookie



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:10 EDT 1996
Article: 1252 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Low power HVAC with vortex tubes
Date: 9 Oct 1996 17:10:45 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <53h4cl$sff@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1252 alt.architecture.alternative:8412 alt.energy.renewable:18504 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9417

Meanwhile, in Siberia...

Valerie Kotelnikov (us@tko.tuva.su), who works for the Tuvinian Institute of
the Russian Academy of Sciences, and has recently published a paper on vortex
technology, and has several issued patents on renewable energy technology
(ie he seems to know what he's talking about, unlike me :-), has recently
been inventing an air-air heat pump using an electric fan, that (so far)
moves 18 times the electrical input power as heat, while more typical heat
pumps use more expensive and complicated hardware and refrigerant gases
like Freon to move only 3 times as much heat as the input power (COP=3.)

Can we heat a house with some sort of vortex tube, using the basement floor?

Valerie describes one of his tiny low-speed vortex heat pump experiments:

(After my Rushlish translation :-)

The tube was 8 inches tall with a top diameter of 7.2 inches and a bottom
diameter of 10.4 inches and a cone angle of 7 degrees. Cylindrical vortex
tubes typically have length/diameter ratios of 30-50. Conical shaped ones
can be shorter. Jet-engine-types which compress the air significantly can
be still shorter, and if the output propellor despins and slows down the
air, removing its kinetic energy, they can be even more efficient.

[Professional Engineer Norman Saunders told me on February 2, 1996, as
we were driving from Boston to Maine, that he has been wanting to build
one of these for a long time, for a ground-coupled air->liquid heat pump
application. He said this was described in one of his proprietary files,
but he did not ask me to keep this information to myself, and he didn't
seem interested in pursuing another patent. He's 80 years old now, and
he has 12 patents already :-) On the other hand, Valerie asked me to post
the results of his experiment here. Norman said one of the problems in
building this is finding a small jet engine. Jet engines aren't cheap,
or quiet, and they would make far more heat than a house needs.]

The exit area was a 1.2 inch diameter hole.

I used a 2.4 watt electric fan. Yes, 2.4 watts, less than 3 watts.

The airflow was 0.00523 liters/second, about 0.01 cfm. 

I wrote:

>It seems to me that a larger experiment would be useful, Val, with a larger
>airflow and a taller and larger diameter tube, eg a tube 1 m or 2 m tall
>and an input power of 100 watts, and an airflow of 1000 cfm.

Yes, sure, but I have not money enough. It is very hard time here now. I need
to find some money for food for my daughters. We don't get our salary during
three month which must be paid us earlier.

I didn't think to measure the air velocity, it was about 40 meters/second,
I think, ie 90 mph, high for cars but not fast for an air vortex. Typical
vortex tubes have 100,000 rpm in 1-2 inch diameter. About 10,000 m/s. Vortex
tubes made by Vortec, Inc. have 120 C hot air and -40 C cold air outputs.

The input air temperature was from 62F to 82F, and the output air was
about 6-7 degrees C more than the input temperature.

Heat power Q = 1009 J/kg*grad * difference of temp * mass

or for my case  Q = 1009 * 0.0063 * 7 = 44.1 watts

so COP = 44.1/2.4 = 18.

It is high for this unit. I had COP=7 before. The output airflow temp depends
on the rate of flow. For 7, I used a flow rate of less than this 6.3 g/s.

>Let's try this, Val: suppose we want to heat a house with 90 F air with 55 F
>basement air. Raise the temp of the basement air 35 F, heat the house, and
>return 35 F air to the basement to warm up again? Maybe 1 kW. How would we
>do that? What would the flow rate and fan power be? What air velocity and
>static pressure? What diameter and tube length? Would you extract some
>heat from the hotter air through the walls of the tube?
 
>I may extract heat through walls of tube, and I may extract hot air also.

>Sounds good. Even simpler. Can we put more numbers on this picture?

                   90 F air to 70 F house ==>
                     DT = 20 F, about 10 K.   

                           70 F     First floor? Second floor? Third floor?
..........................   |   ................................
               55 F air-> 100 watt <-55 F air
			 |  fan? |
                         |       |
                         |   s   |  -->further heat extracted from tube wall,
  1 m^3/sec of air   |   |   h   |         to further heat rising 90 F air
  with 1 K delta T       |   a   |  D = ?  with compressed input air?
  moves about            |   f   |
  1 kW, right?     40 D? |   t   |  l/s = 1 kW/10 K = 100?
                         |   ?   |                  ~ 200 cfm
                         |       |  
                     |   |       |
                         |       |
                          50 watt               ^
slow moving 90 F air <-- windmill? --> 90 F air |
                             |
                     <--------------->  air returned from house at 35 F
...........................................................................
               30' x 30', 55 F basement floor warms air back up to 55 F

Can we do this so

35 F cold air flows out from the center of the tube at the bottom, and
55 F stratified basement warm air flows into the tube at the top, and
90 F air flows out from the bottom rim of the tube up into the house, and
70 F house air flows from the house floor into the top center of the tube?

With a fan blowing air down from the top through a propellor at the bottom,
connnected by a rotating shaft? Or perhaps the windmill at the bottom should
be attached to an induction motor, and used as an electrical generator.

This newsgroup publication is intended to be a bar to patenting, under
USC 102/103, and a suggestion that this technique be further developed. 

Nick



From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:11 EDT 1996
Article: 1253 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 21:49:55 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 123
Message-ID: <325C8073.F64@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <3258B4E3.67C6@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-27-a-189.gw.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1253 alt.energy.renewable:18506 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9418

At 08:50 AM 10/7/96 +0100, Dale@xs4all.nl wrote:

>>I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that someone
>> was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
>>climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in
>>Minnesota do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two
>>months of bad skiing.

>>I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>>garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.
>>A small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>>the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water,
>>circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
>>exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the
>>roof temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble
>>pack" solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the
>>system in 12 years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90
>>(the pump turns off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6
>>or 7 degrees per sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.
>>In short, the pool has always been at a comfortable temperature anytime
>>the outside was warm enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.
>>We typically open the pool in late May and close it in early September.
>>
>>Dick Lambert

>At last someone with real life experience!
>
>I have been trying to do something like this in an area of the world where
>black pipe of any kind does not exist (northeast Poland). Whatever I want,
>I will have to import or carry it in from a long ways off, so I want to get
>it right at the start.
>
>What is a grundfos pump?

Grundfos is a brand name of a pump - I believe the parent company is in
Germany.  All I have is the US address: Grundfos Pumps Corp, 2555 Clovis
Avenue, Clovis, California 93612, USA (209) 292-8000.  I'm using a 1/12
horsepower model #UP-26-96BF which has a bronze volute (case) and a
stainless steel impellor.

>How many gallons per minute are going through it?

I estimate that it's pumping about 9.5 gallons/minute.
>
>Who makes the controler?

Goldline Controls division of Independent Energy Inc., 42 Ladd Street,
East Greenwich, Rhode Island, USA (401) 884-6990, (800) 343-0826.  I'm
using their model CM30 - X0102 which is a pool & spa unit with a 55 to
110 deg F adjustable maximum pool high limit ($80 in 1985).  It uses a
model INS-1 insolation sensor ($10 in 1985) and a model SC-1/2 water
temperature sensor ($10 in 1985).
>
>What exactly is black poly piping? 'Poly' what?

Flexible high density polyethylene.  I used a 1" 80 psi rated product
under the brand name of "Excel" made by Granse Corporation, 21670
Hamburg Avenue, Airlake Industrial Park, Lakeville, Minnesota 55044, USA
(612) 469-2191, (800) 328-4509.  I paid $110.00 per 1000 foot coil in
1985. This type of pipe is connected with  radiator hose clamps and
barbed fittings (male barbed fitting on both ends) which slip inside the
pipe thereby reducing its internal diameter.  In addition to the time
and expense of making the connections, each fitting creates a high
pressure drop compared to the normal fittings used with rigid pipe.   I
special ordered long length coils to minimize the problems, expense, and
pressure drop many connections would cause.  

> Is it flexible?

Yes - see below.

>Is it resistant to decay from the sunlight and hot water?

Yes, the manufacturer claimed that they use a an "ultraviolet proof"
resin that does not deteriorate in sunlight.  I have not seen any
deterioration in the pipe at all.  In fact, I deliberately left the odd
lengths I had left over on the garage roof alongside the solar heater. 
They have been left in the sun subject to everything the solar heater
piping has had to face except for the pool water inside.   Therefore,
they have had a tougher environment since there was no water to carry
away the heat - they just baked in the sun.  I just brought a piece
that's been on the roof since July 1985 down and it flexes just like it
was brand new - absolutely no sign of hardening or brittleness at all. 
I just bent the piece into a 2 foot diameter circle with virtually no
noticeable flattening of the pipe - there was no flattening with a 3
foot diameter circle.

> How much total space does a 1000' coil take up?   Is it coiled tight or with space between the coils?

I laid the pipe on an 85 deg F day in four flat spiral coils that
started at about 3 1/2 foot in diameter and went out to about 11 feet in
diameter.  All four coils fit in an area of about 11 feet by 44 feet.

>Does it have any covering (glazing, glass or plastic) over it, or insulation under it?

No.  I thought about glazing but decided it was [A] too expensive to do
it with low maintenance glazing like glass, [B] to maintenance prone
with a cheaper plastic, and [C] likely to damage the EPDM roofing below
the glazing if I had installed it.  I took the lack of glazing into
account when I decided how much pipe to install.  I don't think there
would be much of an efficiency gain from insulating beneath the array,
however, I decided that I would add some kind of closed cell (not porous
to water) insulation beneath to protect the roof membrane if I ever did
need to glaze to increase capacity.

> Would that [glazing] make a significant difference?

Most definitely,  I would guess that glazing would at least double the
efficiency.  As it stands now I benchmarked my system as follows:  On
5/21/94 at 1:35 PM central standard time with no clouds and a 90 deg F
outside air temperature the solar heater delivered a 13 deg F
temperature rise (77 deg entering pool water temperature, and 90 deg F
leaving pool water temperature).  I got essentially the same results a
month later.  The temperature rise goes up due to the increased delta T
when the pool water is colder.

Hope this helps.
----
Richard C. Lambert 			800 Brenner Avenue
President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu



From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:12 EDT 1996
Article: 1254 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:04:33 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <325C83E1.3ACE@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <53bbem$rpc@news.pathcom.com>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-27-a-189.gw.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1254 alt.energy.renewable:18510 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9419

Andrew McKegney wrote:
> 
> Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> >I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
> >McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
> >climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
> >do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
> >skiing.
> 
> >I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
> >garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
> >small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
> >the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water,
> >circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
> >exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof
> >temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
> >solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
> >years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
> >off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
> >sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
> >always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
> >enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
> >pool in late May and close it in early September.
> 
> 
> Dear Mr. Lambert
> 
> Thankyou for posting your experience. Actually it is a strong
> supporting case for the "discussion" I have been having with Mr. Pine.
> 
> Your system which uses poly pipe sounds very typical of most
> do-it-yourself systems -although larger by a factor of ten - which is
> good! Many do-it-yourselfers will only install 100 - 300 feet of pipe
> (not 4000 like you) and make the same claims about performance as you.
> Unfortunately their systems aren't capable of heating that well.
> (thermal physics raises it's practical head.!<)
> 
> The only caution I suggest about coils of pipe, is being sure to drain
> them completely before freezing weather. Poly pipe is not made to be
> exposed to the sun (it's designed to be buried) and as a result it
> hardens after 2-3 years, and will split if it is frozen full of water.
> On a flat roof it may not be too hard to blow the pipe out. On a
> sloped roof, it is very hard to blow the water out of the bottom half
> of the loops of coil.

The manufacturer (Granse) claimed that they use a an "ultraviolet proof"
resin that does not deteriorate in sunlight.  I have not seen any
deterioration in the pipe at all.  In fact, I deliberately left the odd
lengths I had left over on the garage roof alongside the solar heater. 
They have been left in the sun subject to everything the solar heater
piping has had to face except for the pool water inside.   Therefore,
they have had a tougher environment since there was no water to carry
away the heat - they just baked in the sun.  I just brought a piece
that's been on the roof since July 1985 down and it flexes just like it
was brand new - absolutely no sign of hardening or brittleness at all. 
I just bent the piece into a 2 foot diameter circle with virtually no
noticeable flattening of the pipe - there was no flattening with a 3
foot diameter circle.

BUT, if the coils were mounted in anything but a horizontal surface they
would have to be blown out well.  I used to have the same outfit that
blew out my underground sprinklers blow out my solar heater too until
they blew UP my $80 multiport pool valve - then I started doing it
myself with a small 3/4 hp compressor.  The sprinkler outfit used a
trailer mounted compressor of the type used for jackhammers and it blew
the system dry (and no it did not unwind my solar coil like a New Years
eve part favor).

-- 
Richard C. Lambert 			800 Brenner Avenue
President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu



From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:13 EDT 1996
Article: 1255 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:06:50 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <325C846A.357C@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <53fc8i$5tk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-27-a-189.gw.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1255 alt.energy.renewable:18511 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9420

Hardison wrote:
> 
> Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> >
> >I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
> >garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
> >small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
> >the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water,
> 
> I have the same set up (3000 FT) of coiled hose on my patio cover.  I
> just had a nice swim this evening in 84F water (so it works).  But I
> don't have a differential temperature controller like you describe.
> I haven't seen any $100 controllers.  Was that years ago?  I need one
> of those things!  Please post a source!
> 
> S. Hardison>

Goldline Controls division of Independent Energy Inc., 42 Ladd Street,
East Greenwich, Rhode Island, USA (401) 884-6990, (800) 343-0826.  I'm
using their model CM30 - X0102 which is a pool & spa unit with a 55 to
110 deg F adjustable maximum pool high limit ($80 in 1985).  It uses a
model INS-1 insolation sensor ($10 in 1985) and a model SC-1/2 water
temperature sensor ($10 in 1985).
-- 
Richard C. Lambert 			800 Brenner Avenue
President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu



From Mlobrien@btinternet.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:14 EDT 1996
Article: 1256 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!btinternet!usenet
From: "Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 9 Oct 1996 23:37:33 GMT
Organization: BT Internet
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <01bbb639$f38b3bc0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host-73-37-60.btinternet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1256 alt.architecture.alternative:8417 alt.energy.renewable:18512 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9421

	Andrew my impression is that Nick is a free minded creator with the
characteristic light hearted attitude. You might be too heavy and serious
to gain anything out of this thread. Seems to me we have the business man
rediculing the scientist, type of thing. I'm not saying you aren't a
scientist, you're just from another necessary nitch in the big picture that
won't bare much fruit from interaction from Nicks kind where others would
harvest huge spin-offs. But then who the hell am I ?
-- 
Marc O'Brien
Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote in article 
> >Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 
> 
> And I guess that makes you an ignorant American, Congratulations.
> 
> Andrew McKegney
> 
> 


From Mlobrien@btinternet.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:15 EDT 1996
Article: 1257 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!btinternet!usenet
From: "Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 9 Oct 1996 23:49:45 GMT
Organization: BT Internet
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <01bbb63b$85dd0200$492349c2@mlobrien>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <530rar$l5o@news.pathcom.com> <533chb$553@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53bk83$vsh@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host-73-35-139.btinternet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1257 alt.architecture.alternative:8418 alt.energy.renewable:18513 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9422

	Andrew my impression is that Nick is a free minded creator with the
characteristic light hearted attitude. You might be too heavy and serious
to gain anything out of this thread. Seems to me we have the business man
rediculing the scientist, type of thing. I'm not saying you aren't a
scientist, you're just from another necessary nitch in the big picture that
won't bare much fruit from interaction from Nicks kind where others would
harvest huge spin-offs. But then who the hell am I ?
-- 
Marc O'Brien
Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote in article 
> >Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 
> 
> And I guess that makes you an ignorant American, Congratulations.
> 
> Andrew McKegney
> 
> 


From a.doherty@bristol.ac.uk Wed Oct 16 22:38:16 EDT 1996
Article: 1258 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!warwick!bris.ac.uk!usenet
From: "Andrew J. Doherty" <a.doherty@bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Rabbits and Permaculture
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: anaajd.ana.bris.ac.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
To: "L.A. Osolin" <ceparch0@island.net>
Message-ID: <325CAA3C.1CC8@bristol.ac.uk>
Sender: usenet@fsa.bris.ac.uk (Usenet)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Organization: University of Bristol, UK
References: <rambojr-1809962329300001@morr03-nj-19.gti.net>
	 <32436879.2737846@news2.argo.net> <5271e7$5rl@News.IDT.NET>
	 <32474c3e.999360@news2.argo.net> <52quin$gi@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
	 <Pine.HPP.3.91.961005081352.16828M-100000@homer.louisville.edu> <ceparch0-0710961409150001@dyn26.victoria.island.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:48:12 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
Lines: 35
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:30430 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9424 alt.energy.renewable:18514 alt.solar.thermal:1258

L.A. Osolin wrote:
>
> 
> There was a TV news broadcast (last month I belive) from BCTV in
> Vancouver, B.C. Canada
> which showed the progress of an experiment of feeding chicken manure to
> cattle. It was
> successful in that it was providing a good food supplement and giving
> commercial egg
> producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.
 But Remember BSE in cattle - a disease supposedly passed from one
animal (sheep) to another (cow) through providing that animal with a
diet it was not meant to be feeding on? If it teaches us nothing else,
it teaches us that we do not know enough about how pathogenic
organism(s) cross species barriers. Cows are herbivores - let them stay
as herbivores. As another mesage inthis thread mentioned, chicken manure
can be burnt as a fuel for generating electricity. In this country, one
power plant is going through the planning process. I think people would
find that a more acceptable use of chicken manure than feeding to
cattle.

TTFN
-- 
***********************************************
   Dr Andrew Doherty                          
   Department of Anatomy                   
   School of Medical Sciences             
   University Walk                               
   Bristol                                            
   UK
   BS8 1TD

   e-mail  A.Doherty@Bristol.ac.uk

************************************************


From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1259 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n1tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 20:16:52 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <53h23k$i8@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts5l13.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1259 alt.energy.renewable:18515 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9426

guymacon@deltanet.com (Guy Macon) wrote:

>In article <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) says:

>>At all air temps??? It gets to 90F regularly in summer here but we
>>still like warmer water!

>I heard that in Pheonix, AZ, the set up fountains to stop
>pools from getting too hot to swim in...

96:10:09

Yup that works because of evapourative cooling, but you  can lose a
lot of water that way.

Another approach that solar pool heater owners can use is to run the
solar systems at night. (In fact some of the better solar controllers
have an "over temp" feature built into them which will cause the water
to flow through the panels at night if the pool gets too warm - a
feature we really don't need here in Canada!)

The solar panels lose heat to the sky (which has a cooler temperature
on clear nights than the air), which cools the pool down. As noted
this only works well if there are no clouds.

Andrew McKegney



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1260 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n1tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 05:39:52 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com> <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1260 alt.energy.renewable:18516 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9427

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) continued to spew:


>>>Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
>>>a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
>>>concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
>>>corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
>>>26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
>>>hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
>>>and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
>>>collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
>>>the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
>>>heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 
> 
>>It "might" (highly unlikely) keep your pool warm, but I don't know of
>>many people who are going to want to shovel the snow off the cover
>>before they sink it

> 
>>With your imaginary R10 blanket that magically appears and dissappears
>>from the pool surface without any effort by the pool owner, things
>>could be even better. But then this is pure fantasy.

If you think this idea is so hot why don't you build one. I'd wager
dollars to donuts that you could not make a practical product that
could be sold to compete with the products currently on the market.

BTW the latest issue of Pool & Spa Marketing has a feature on pool
covers and rollers. You might actually learn something about pool
covers if you were to read it.

Available from:	 Hubbard Marketing and Publishing
		270 Esna Park Drive, Unit 12
		Markham, Ontario, Canada. L3R 1H3
		905-513-0090

You should get a copy - you have a lot to learn about pools.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From jimfrizz@iol.ie Wed Oct 16 22:38:19 EDT 1996
Article: 1261 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!iol!usenet
From: jimfrizz@iol.ie (Seamus)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:06:58 GMT
Organization: Chaotic.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com> <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com>
Reply-To: jimfrizz@iol.ie
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-026.waterford.iol.ie
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1261 alt.energy.renewable:18518 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9429

sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)   said that:
>
>You should get a copy - you have a lot to learn about pools.
>
>Andrew McKegney C.E.T.

I for one have just about had it with this arrogant salesperson and he
gets my killfile vote.

The day is better already.
Jim


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:20 EDT 1996
Article: 1262 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 10 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 248
Message-ID: <53j6dp$9cj@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com> <01bbb63b$85dd0200$492349c2@mlobrien>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1262 alt.architecture.alternative:8422 alt.energy.renewable:18519 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9430

Marc O'Brien <Mlobrien@btinternet.com> wrote:

>	Andrew my impression is that Nick is a free minded creator with the
>characteristic light hearted attitude.

I do tend to minimize the actual work of building things, but it seems to me
that there are a lot of people in the world who are better at building things
than I am, things that don't leak or fall down, even. Perhaps my niche is
suggesting different ways of building things, from a thermal point of view.
I prefer low-cost materials, at least at first, especially for experimental
systems like bubblewalls, but I think it's important to bear in mind that
solar structures can have many different architectural forms, with equivalent
engineering principles and performance, and that cost/performance ratio is
often more important than performance itself.

So, on to further crackpot schemes:

Valerie sends a little picture, and a clarification:

>Can you send me a simple ascii picture of this?

I try it, but it will be better in .bmp or another graphic format. If you
can to uudecode and unzip it I can send you picture in these formats.
See ascii:
                         input
                      /---   ---\
                    /             \
                  /                 \
                /                     \
            --/                         \
  output   _               Fan            \
           /  __________   __   __________  \
         /   /__________\ I__I /__________\   \
       /----------------------------------------\

...will send some equations later.

>>Quantity of heat (Q) = 1009 J/kg*grad * difference of temp * mass
>>
>>or for my case  Q = 1009 * 0.0063 * 7 = 44.1 watts
>>
>>and COP = 44.1/2.4 = 18
>
>Hey, that's great. What was the airflow rate in that case?

I wrote it for example. I never get it on my device. It was just about 7.

Valerie I. Kotelnikov                   Tuvinian Complex Institute,
academic secretary                      667007, Russia, Republic of
phone 7 394 2236355                     Tuva, Kyzyl, International st.,117a,
fax   7 394 2236555                     e-mail us@tko.tuva.su

Well, 7 is pretty good, and I think Val has good reasons to expect higher.

Meanwhile, back at the unfunny free energy farm, I spoke to an engineer friend
who went to Dennis Lee's free energy show in Phila a couple of weeks ago. Lee
is just out of jail, for failing to make good on a number of contracts, as
I understand it. He says he couldn't make good on the contracts because they
threw him in jail. But he rented the Phila convention center for $50K for the
night, the last stop on a US grand national money harvesting tour. He's now
selling "franchises" for $10K each, "a maximum of 2,000 of them." Every one
of the 30 devices on stage was connected to some sort of power source, but
the audience didn't seem to notice that. The "Brown's gas" (H2+O2) engine
was connected to some huge bright orange industrial-looking electrolysis
boxes, plugged into the wall with huge fat black electrical cables.

Why do we waste our time talking about or believing or debunking this stuff?
Why not just build a few more things that do work, eg above-ground swimming
pools or hot tubs with good thermal covers with solar air heaters on their
sunny sides, so they can heat themselves. Or buy more CF light bulbs.

A friend writes: 

>Solar energy and the trees on  our property are about the only sources
>of renewable energy that we have.

It's unwindy and un-hydro-y where I live too, and I have lots of space
as well, a 5 acre "yard," which is now taller than I am, with about 100
55 gallon "accent drums" sprinkled around the yard.
 
>We have an oil burner which heats water for baseboard heat, and a  150
>amp service box where the utility power comes  in.   We  have electric
>central air conditioner and water heater.

Do you have a damp basement too? Perhaps with a dirt floor like mine? I have
an oil burner too, but I don't use it much. I'm thinking of air conditioning
the basement this winter, and heating the house with the warm side of the
air conditioner, to eliminate the 25 gallons of oil I used to heat the house
last winter. I didn't burn any wood last winter, either.

Why not add a plastic film greenhouse onto the south side of your house,
or build yourself a plastic film greenhouse in the sun near your house,
with a strawbale tank lined with EPDM rubber for space and water heating?
If the greenhouse were very near the house, some of the solar "waste heat"
>from  heating the water tank could heat the house with warm air. A greenhouse
might be a fine place to put your central air outdoor unit, if it can
work as a heat pump in the winter. 

Stuppy (800) 877-5025 sells 20' wide x 10' tall greenhouses for 64 cents
per square foot, up to 48' long, 57 cents if longer, plus about $200 for
shipping from Kansas City, and a 30' wide x 100' long x 15' tall 3,000 ft^2 
greenhouse can be put up by 3 people in one day, from scratch, including
the ground stake "foundation." The standard way to keep the plastic film
>from  fatiguing in the wind in the winter is to use two layers and inflate
it to 1/4" water column pressure with a $50, 50 watt blower. You might only
turn on the blower when it is windy, or just use 1 layer of plastic and some
sort of ridge venturi to make a slight vacuum inside when the wind blows.

As an alternative to those standard quonset hut or gothic arch-shaped
greenhouses made with curved galvanized pipes, you might spend another
day making the 18 curved beams you'd need for a 16' wide 8' tall x 32'
long greenhouse out of 36 12' 1x3s costing $2 each, bending two of each
to an 8' radius, with some 1x3 spacers and purlins and ridgepole every 2',
held together with deck screws, for a $200 512 ft^2 structure to collect
and store about 200K Btu of sun per day, about 2 gallons of oil's worth,
on an average December day.

It might look something like this:

     ---                  .
                   .      c      .            The 10' x 32' R10 insulating 
               .               c     .        and reflective cover is shown  
      8'     .                      c  .      in the raised position.
           .                            c.
          . plants,       b "solar" pool  b   ---
         .  picnic table, a    cover      a.
        .   etc.          l  106 F water? l .  4'
     .....................e...............e..................
        |                16'                |

                          |       11'       |
        .....................................
        .                 . ............... . ---
        .                 . .      8'     . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . 30'         . . 32'
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . . . . . . . . .
        ..................................... ---

The tank might be 8' wide x 4' deep inside, made with about 80 strawbales
and a few 2x4s and dacron rope and ground stakes, and a single piece of EPDM
rubber, 20' wide x 44' long. Mouldy old $1 strawbales might have this piece
of EPDM rubber draped over the top surface, with the sides uncovered, all
natural-like, with a plastic film vapor barrier underneath. (Yuppies and
architects might use $2 bright yellow strawbales, with accent pumpkins.)

The cover might be

1. rigid as shown, weighing about 300 pounds at 1 lb/ft^2?, made with $160's
worth of 4x8 sheets of 2" Styrofoam and a few 2x4s, painted white underneath 
and dark on top, with a counterweight and a small reversible motor and
photocontrol, or

2. a $24 flat polyethylene pillow, filled with tiny cold bubbles at night and
air during the day, using a $50 wet/dry shop vac with a bubble sensor in the
return line (I wonder how to make that?) to make bubbles out of a soapy water
puddle at the bottom of the plastic film and collect them at the top, for a
few seconds every few hours. This cover might be on the bottom if people were
sitting in this large hot tub, and they would want to be careful to neither
slip nor puncture the plastic film, nor crawl underneath, as one solar pool 
heating professional suggests. The north half of the poly film overhead might
be painted white, to reflect more sun down into the water on a winter day.

3. Another way to make a cover is to assemble $30 worth of 4" solid thinwall
PVC drainage pipe on the floor of the tank, into a 30x8' picture frame, place
$120 worth of 2" Styrofoam on top, lay plastic mesh on top for reinforcement,
and place 2" of concrete or pebbles over that. If all goes well, when you fill
the PVC pipe with 2 cubic feet of air at 2 psi from a 340 cfm, 150 mph $49
Sears leaf blower, to make a bouyant force of about 120 pounds, the cover
might magically rise up to the top in 0.35 seconds, and people could sleep
on it at night. A guest room. With a klaxon and automated "Dive! Dive! Dive!"
announcement a few seconds before the cover sinks at dawn the next morning
to absorb sun in the water through a single layer of plastic film on top?

4. Or, you might lift the neutrally-bouyant slab with a polyethylene film
cover on top, by inflating that. More at night than during the day, when
the floor would be awash. Or you could haul the cover up out of the water
with a rope harness and a $149 Sears garage door opener, which some people
use to haul boats out of the water.

This could become a serious hobby. Or even a business.

What would the average water temperature be in December? Where I live,
the south wall might receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun, of which 90%
might make it through the outer layer of plastic film and 80% be reflected
>from  the white surface overhead, and 90% of that might fall into the water,
so the average daily solar gain into the water might be 1000x256x0.9x0.8x0.9
= 166 K Btu. The greenhouse might be 70 F on an average December day in the
Philadelphia area, with some sun, or warmer if there's a reflecting surface
to the south. 

The pool would mainly lose heat through the "solar pool cover," over a 6 hour
solar collection day, so if there were no useful heat output from the pool,
it might have an average steady-state stagnation water temp T such that
166K Btu = 6(T-70)240 ft^2/R1 ==> T = 70 + 166K/(6x240) = 185 F. Warm enough
to cook lobsters?

The thermal conductance of the pool with the cover in place would be about

    320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the cover,
  + 320 ft^2/R50 =  6 for the walls,
  + 320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the bottom,
    for a total of 70 Btu/hr-F,

and the average temp inside the greenhouse might be 50 F in December, so if
the pool temp were 130 F, say, the top and sides of the pool might lose
24(130-50)70 = 134 K Btu/day, and the 4x8x32x64 = 65,536 pounds of water
might lose 134K/66K = 2 F on a cloudy day, and another 2 F if it supplied
a modern house with the heat equivalent of a gallon of oil per day.

And another 1 F if it were supplying hot water for the house, via some hot
water plastic pipe running around the top edge... How much plastic pipe area
do we need to heat 3 gpm of water from 55 F to 110 F in 130 F water? We need
to transfer 3x8x(110-55) = 1320 Btu of heat in a minute, or about 80 K Btu/hr
(23 kW), which we might do across a liquid-liquid interface with an R0.1 thin
PVC pipe wall between (copper pipe might make this R0.03, and tend to inhibit
algae growth in the pool), with an average temperature difference of something
like 50 F, so we'd need a pipe surface area A such that 80K = 50 A /R0.1, so 
A = 0.1x80K/50 = 160 ft^2. A $10 10'x4" schedule 80 PVC pipe has an area of 
Pix4/12x10 = 10.5 ft^2 and a volume of 3.14x(1/6)^2x10 = 0.87 ft^3 (which
would displace $1.77 worth of concrete at $55/yd^3.) So, do we need 16 of
these 10' pipes? I don't think so, since we do not or should not use 3 gpm
of hot water for more than about 20 minutes at a time, ie 60 gallons or
7.5 cubic feet, or about 8 pipefuls of water, or 80 linear feet of pipe,
once around the top edge, just under the water surface. 

Now how can we keep this pipe half full of air, to float the pool cover?

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1263 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 10 Oct 1996 13:28:17 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53jbnh$a3s@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com> <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1263 alt.energy.renewable:18521 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9432

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>If you think this idea is so hot why don't you build one. I'd wager
>dollars to donuts that you could not make a practical product that
>could be sold to compete with the products currently on the market.

I'll pass on that. Seems to me solar ovens and pools are luxuries in this
country, as long as we are heating our houses with oil and bombing Iraq
to keep the price low. This keeps Canadian oil prices low too, I guess.
 
>BTW the latest issue of Pool & Spa Marketing has a feature on pool
>covers and rollers. You might actually learn something about pool
>covers if you were to read it.
>
>Available from: Hubbard Marketing and Publishing
>		 270 Esna Park Drive, Unit 12
>		 Markham, Ontario, Canada. L3R 1H3
>		 905-513-0090

Thanks for the tip. I called 'em, and they are sending me a free copy :-)

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From brandonm@i-link.net brandonm@austin.ibm.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:22 EDT 1996
Article: 1264 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!brandonm
From: brandonm@austin.ibm.com (Brandon Mayfield)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Hey, Nick!
Date: 10 Oct 1996 18:49:56 GMT
Organization: varies with the inverse of the frustration
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <53jggk$26ta@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: brandonm@i-link.net brandonm@austin.ibm.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: purgatory.austin.ibm.com
Originator: brandonm@purgatory.austin.ibm.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1264 alt.energy.renewable:18522 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9433


In article <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> 
> Even 2% moisture in fiberglass insulation reduces its R-value by half, and
> it's not hard to accumulate that much moisture in a house wall, if the vapour
> barrier is not perfect. 
> 

 2% moisture by weight, volume, or what?

 I'm insulating a house in the next couple of weeks - could I use 
 something besides fiberglass to avoid this problem? How about some
 kind of foam, or polystyrene (sp?). Got any recomendations of brands
 etc.? What's going to get the biggest bang for the buck?

 I'm stuck with the 2x4 exterior walls covered with Tyvek house wrap / 
 masonite siding. I was not especially worried about a vapor barrier 
 (just using kraft backed 'glass bats) since there's no vapor barrier 
 on the outside wall and the %RH is typically just slightly lower than, 
 say, Houston (I'm in Austin, Tx.).

 Brandon Mayfield



From aab@cichlid.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:23 EDT 1996
Article: 1265 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!news.cichlid.com!not-for-mail
From: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 10 Oct 1996 13:03:26 -0700
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <53jkqe$5qq@loach.cichlid.com>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com> <01bbb63b$85dd0200$492349c2@mlobrien> <53j6dp$9cj@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: loach.cichlid.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1265 alt.architecture.alternative:8430 alt.energy.renewable:18524 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9434

In <53j6dp$9cj@ufo.ee.vill.edu> nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>3. Another way to make a cover is to assemble $30 worth of 4" solid thinwall
>PVC drainage pipe on the floor of the tank, into a 30x8' picture frame, place
>$120 worth of 2" Styrofoam on top, lay plastic mesh on top for reinforcement,
>and place 2" of concrete or pebbles over that. If all goes well, when you fill
>the PVC pipe with 2 cubic feet of air at 2 psi from a 340 cfm, 150 mph $49
>Sears leaf blower, to make a bouyant force of about 120 pounds, the cover
>might magically rise up to the top in 0.35 seconds, and people could sleep
>on it at night.

I don't think 2 psi is enough. A column of water is roughly 1/2 PSI
per foot so to inflate something on the bottom of a swimming pool would 
take more pressure. Maybe run a line from the hot tub bubbler?


-- 
Best regards,
Andy Burgess
aab@cichlid.com


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:24 EDT 1996
Article: 1266 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 10 Oct 1996 17:49:03 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53jr0f$dmd@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <01bbb63b$85dd0200$492349c2@mlobrien> <53j6dp$9cj@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53jkqe$5qq@loach.cichlid.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1266 alt.architecture.alternative:8431 alt.energy.renewable:18525 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9436

Andy Burgess <aab@cichlid.com> wrote:

>I don't think 2 psi is enough. A column of water is roughly 1/2 PSI
>per foot so to inflate something on the bottom of a swimming pool would 
>take more pressure.

This was the 4' hot tub version, filled with 3.5' of 0.43 psi/ft water?
The cover would normally be near the surface, in automatic mode, and only on
the bottom and close to neutrally bouyant if someone were using the pool/tub,
so perhaps the person could manually pull the cover up to the top with a
rope in that case, and a 3" H20 blower could normally keep it afloat?

Still wondering how to keep the 4" pipe underneath half-filled with air,
with a bit more to raise the cover and a bit less to lower it. Some kind
of low pressure air pump in a higher pressure enclosure, eg a 55 gallon
plastic drum wrapped with concrete and chicken wire? :-)

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:25 EDT 1996
Article: 1267 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Hey, Nick!
Date: 10 Oct 1996 18:14:14 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <53jsfm$dtq@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53jggk$26ta@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1267 alt.energy.renewable:18526 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9437

Brandon Mayfield <brandonm@i-link.net brandonm@austin.ibm.com> wrote:
>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>> 
>>Even 2% moisture in fiberglass insulation reduces its R-value by half, and
>>it's not hard to accumulate that much moisture in a house wall, if the vapor
>>barrier is not perfect. 
>
> 2% moisture by weight, volume, or what?

I don't recall. Heard this from David South at last year's Monolithic Dome
conference. I think he said 6% was typical, if the vapor barrier is poor. 
That would be 4 pounds of water per cubic foot of fiberglass by volume :-)
Perhaps it's by weight.

> I'm insulating a house in the next couple of weeks - could I use 
> something besides fiberglass to avoid this problem? How about some
> kind of foam, or polystyrene (sp?). Got any recomendations of brands
> etc.? What's going to get the biggest bang for the buck?

Fiberglass is the bigger bang. Cheaper than straw, at 25 cents/R20-ft^2,
ie 1.25 cents/R-foot, like board-foot. Cheaper than straw in some stores, at
$4/R50-4 ft^2 strawbale, ie 2 cents/R-foot. Not as cheap as a bubblewall, tho.
 
> I'm stuck with the 2x4 exterior walls covered with Tyvek house wrap / 
> masonite siding. I was not especially worried about a vapor barrier 
> (just using kraft backed 'glass bats) since there's no vapor barrier 
> on the outside wall and the %RH is typically just slightly lower than, 
> say, Houston (I'm in Austin, Tx.).
 
Do y'all put the vapor barrier on the inside or outside of the insulation
down there? Perhaps you should consult with your local HVAC criminal.

("Guido? Nah, Guido's not around anymore. He had a unforchunate axident.")

Nick



From serv.adm@qc.bell.ca Wed Oct 16 22:38:26 EDT 1996
Article: 1268 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!snunews.snu.ac.kr!news.kaist.ac.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!utcsri!bc2cep!news
From: "Serv Adm" <serv.adm@qc.bell.ca>
Subject: Solar pool heating
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: cmoc3o.qc.bell.ca
Message-ID: <01bbb5fa$cb470020$0b3f708e@cmoc3o.qc.bell.ca>
Sender: news@on.bell.ca (news admin)
Organization: Bell Canada, Bell Sygma, SRCI
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:59:31 GMT
Lines: 16

I built last year a solar pool heather with 6 4'x8' black Coroplast sheets
(192 sq. fo.) on my roof. Water going out from the pool filter is going
thru
theses panels and going back to the pool. I want to evaluate the efficiency
of my system. Could someone help? Here is a little more info: there are
6000 litres
of water circulating thru the panels in an hour. Water coming out from the
system
is 2 degres (celcius) higher than water going in the panels. How much BTU
my
system is developping?

I live near Montreal (Quebec) Canada.

Philippe Lavoie
plhs@cam.org


From sylvan@cyberhighway.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:27 EDT 1996
Article: 1269 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cyberhighway.net!user1.cyberhighway.net!sylvan
From: sylvan@cyberhighway.net (Sylvan Butler)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 11 Oct 1996 03:30:21 GMT
Organization: Visualize Whirled Peas
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <53kf0d$r5q$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com> <53h23k$i8@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: user1.cyberhighway.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1269 alt.energy.renewable:18532 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9443

Andrew McKegney (sunone@pathcom.com) wrote:
>Another approach that solar pool heater owners can use is to run the
>solar systems at night. (In fact some of the better solar controllers
 ...
>The solar panels lose heat to the sky (which has a cooler temperature
>on clear nights than the air), which cools the pool down. As noted

This makes absolutely no sense.  The amount of radient energy in 100deg
water is trivial.  Isn't the air temp the only concern, and the air temp
is usually cooler on clear nights?

sdb



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:28 EDT 1996
Article: 1270 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n2van.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Floating pool patios
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:14:58 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <53jfb8$o8d@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53dqp4$5k5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l10.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1270 alt.energy.renewable:18538 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9448

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
> 
>>Here's another recipe: make 1 picture-frame mold out of 2x4s on edge with
>>a 4'x8' id, and put a $16 4x8x2" Styrofoam panel inside and place 1.5" of
>>concrete on top of it, and push a 1/2" diameter hole diagonally through each
>>corner of the concrete, so you can tie these slabs together later. Repeat
>>26 times. Make the perimeter slabs with cedar strips and plated screws to
>>hold down a single $40 24'x36' sheet of 6 mil poly film, on top of the cover,
>>and inflate the film slightly to raise the cover and make a 768 ft^2 solar
>>collector, and lower it 2" every so often, letting some water leak in around
>>the lower film edges, using a thermostat, automatically, to remove the solar
>>heat. You can't walk on this, but it would keep the pool warm in December. 

>Come to think of it, you could walk on it, if the poly film cover were
>sufficiently inflated. Poly film pillows on commercial greenhouses are up
>to 3' thick, as inflated on 4' centers, and they hold up more than 15 psf
>of snow, so a pool cover like this could be 36' tall in the middle, with a
>3' rise every 2' in from the edge. We might paint the north side dark, or
>hang some greenhouse shadecloth across the middle, and blow down some air
>from the top through floatation pipes in thermal contact with the water,
>to collect more solar heat. I'd clip this cover to the edge of the pool
>for parties, so we don't somehow end up like Guido.

>There must be a simple way to make an airtight door in the film itself...
>Overlap 2 pieces of film, and slip between them to get in?   Not quite...

>Nick

Nick inflatable pool covers are not new, they have been around for
years and they are not cheap. (Check out the latest issue of Pool and
Spa Marketing) Plus in winter months you have to heat the air you use
to inflate the cover, or it's like standing naked in a blizzard !

You have to use a blanket on the pool or the convective heat losses
are incredible. Nothing like ice-cold condensation to chill-out a
swim. (I know, I been there, done that).

Again you're way out on the end of a 100 metre diving board, and all
you know is the theory of diving - hell it can't be that hard to fall
down! Recant --- before you do a(nother) belly-flop and splatter your
ignorance over the web.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:29 EDT 1996
Article: 1271 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n2van.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:11:49 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53k7os$28v@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com> <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com> <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts16l8.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1271 alt.energy.renewable:18539 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9449

jimfrizz@iol.ie (Seamus) wrote:

>sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)   said that:
>>
>>You should get a copy - you have a lot to learn about pools.
>>
>>Andrew McKegney C.E.T.

>I for one have just about had it with this arrogant salesperson and he
>gets my killfile vote.

>The day is better already.
>Jim

It would appear Jim that  you  don't know what your talking about
either, Just like your friend Mr. Pine

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:30 EDT 1996
Article: 1272 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 11 Oct 1996 06:44:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53l8di$l5g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com> <53h23k$i8@news.pathcom.com> <53kf0d$r5q$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1272 alt.energy.renewable:18540 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9450

Sylvan Butler <sylvan@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
  ...
>>The solar panels lose heat to the sky (which has a cooler temperature
>>on clear nights than the air), which cools the pool down. As noted
>
>This makes absolutely no sense.  The amount of radient energy in 100deg
>water is trivial.  Isn't the air temp the only concern, and the air temp
>is usually cooler on clear nights?

100 F water has a an absolute temp of 560 R, no? It radiates energy at about
0.174 x 10^-8 560^4 = 171 Btu/hr-ft^2 to the surroundings, which also radiate
energy back at the water. If the surroundings have a temperature of 0 F,
they only radiate heat back to the water at a rate of 78 Btu/hr-ft^2, for a
net heat loss of 93 Btu/hr-ft^2. Perhaps a clear sky can be colder than 0 F. 
 
Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

					  Tom Smith 


From ffrick@msn.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1273 of alt.solar.thermal
From: ffrick@msn.com (Richard Magee)
Subject: Low-Cost solar collectors - Info request
Date: 10 Oct 96 16:47:00 -0700
Message-ID: <0000599d+00000268@msn.com>
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.msn.com!msn.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Organization: The Microsoft Network (msn.com)
Lines: 8

  I would like to build a solar heat system for my home. If anyone 
has information on where I might get plans to build or purchase Low 
Cost Solar collectors.
  I Live in Boston, Massachusetts and would like to supplement our 
home heating system.

                           Rick Magee
                           ffrick@msn.com


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:31 EDT 1996
Article: 1274 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Floating pool patios, and other divers' matters
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:58:52 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <53lnbc$n8a@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53dqp4$5k5@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53jfb8$o8d@news.pathcom.com> <53lmu7$n65@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1274 alt.energy.renewable:18549 alt.architecture.alternative:8440 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9452

Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote:

>Perhaps these are opaque baby-blue aesthetically-interesting inflatable effete
>and pool covers, vs serious virile poly pool covers that stand tall...
  ^
Oops. A typo. I thought I'd deleted all of "and faggoty pool covers," so as
not to offend my faggoty friends, by implying they were solar pool heating
professionals, or worse. (What could be worse?) Sorry... 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:32 EDT 1996
Article: 1275 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!info.ucla.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Floating pool patios, and other divers' matters
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:51:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 235
Message-ID: <53lmu7$n65@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53dqp4$5k5@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53jfb8$o8d@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1275 alt.energy.renewable:18550 alt.architecture.alternative:8441 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9453

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> oozed:
 
>Nick inflatable pool covers are not new, they have been around for
>years and they are not cheap.

Commercial plastic film greenhouses have been around since the 60s,
and they cost 57 cents per square foot. Inexpensive erections, too.
Perhaps solar pool heating professionals are accustomed to paying
large sums for erections.

>(Check out the latest issue of Pool and Spa Marketing)

There are many ways to do things wrong, as Edison found out
9,999 times with light bulb filaments.

>Plus in winter months you have to heat the air you use
>to inflate the cover, or it's like standing naked in a blizzard !

Perhaps these are opaque baby-blue aesthetically-interesting inflatable effete
and pool covers, vs serious virile translucent poly pool covers that stand tall
and proud, with their feet in the pool water itself, and their north halves
painted white to keep the sun from shining in one side and out the other, as
they bounce it down into the pool water washing over their solid slate patio
decks. Perhaps their lower plastic film edges are not underwater, holding up
a slate pool patio, so they don't leak very much air, like a well-sealed
1 acre greenhouse poly film cover inflated with a single 50 watt blower.
 
>You have to use a blanket on the pool or the convective heat losses
>are incredible.

We already covered that. 

>Again you're way out on the end of a 100 metre diving board, and all
>you know is the theory of diving - hell it can't be that hard to fall
>down! Recant --- before you do a(nother) belly-flop and splatter your
>ignorance over the web.

Nonono. I won't recant. I splatter my ignorance in your general direction.
Here's the plan du jour:

Article 2375 of alt.architecture.alternative:
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 10 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0400 [updated 10/11/96]
Organization: Villanova University

Why not add a plastic film greenhouse onto the south side of your house, or
build yourself a plastic film greenhouse in the sun near your house, within
20' say, with a couple of underground pipes for warmwater heat transfer from
a strawbale tank lined with EPDM rubber for space and water heating?

If the greenhouse were very near the house, say within 10', some of the
solar "waste heat" from heating the water tank could heat the house with
warm air. A greenhouse might be a fine place to put your central air outdoor
unit, if it can work as a heat pump in the winter. 

Stuppy (800) 877-5025 sells 20' wide x 10' tall greenhouses for 64 cents
per square foot, up to 48' long, 57 cents if longer, plus about $200 for
shipping from Kansas City, and a 30' wide x 100' long x 15' tall 3,000 ft^2 
greenhouse can be put up by 3 people in one day, from scratch, including
the ground stake "foundation." The standard way to keep the plastic film
>from  fatiguing in the wind in the winter is to use two layers and inflate
it to 1/4" water column pressure with a $50, 50 watt blower. You might only
turn on the blower when it is windy, or just use 1 layer of plastic and some
sort of ridge venturi to make a slight vacuum inside when the wind blows.

As an alternative to those standard quonset hut or gothic arch-shaped
greenhouses made with curved galvanized pipes, you might spend another
day making the 18 curved beams you'd need for a 16' wide 8' tall x 32'
long greenhouse out of 36 12' 1x3s costing $2 each, bending two of each
to an 8' radius, with some 1x3 spacers and purlins and ridgepole every 2',
held together with deck screws, for a $200 512 ft^2 structure to collect
and store about 200K Btu of sun per day, about 2 gallons of oil's worth,
on an average December day.

These 1x3 beams fail in horizontal shear, slipping when you put the ends on
the ground and push on the curved top side. So they could use some glue, and
a solid middle 1x3, or a little chicken wire on each side of the 1x3 spacer:

     -----------------------------------------------------------

                            12' 1x3

     -----------------------------------------------------------
                     |    chicken wire   |
                     |   1x3x3x3 spacer  |
                     |     every 2-3'    |
                     |    chicken wire   |
     -----------------------------------------------------------

                            12' 1x3

     -----------------------------------------------------------

It might look something like this:

     ---                  .
                   .      c      .            The 10' x 32' R10 insulating 
               .               c     .        and reflective cover is shown  
      8'     .                      c  .      in the raised position.
           .                            c.
          . plants,       b "solar" pool  b   ---
         .  picnic table, a    cover      a.
        .   etc.          l  106 F water? l .  4'
     .....................e...............e..................
        |                16'                |

                          |       11'       |
        .....................................
        .                 . . . . . . . . . . ---
        .                 . .      8'     . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . 30'         . . 32'
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . . . . . . . . .
        ..................................... ---

The tank might be 8' wide x 4' deep inside, made with about 80 strawbales
and a few 2x4s and dacron rope and ground stakes, and a single piece of EPDM
rubber, 20' wide x 44' long. This piece of rubber might drape over the top
of moldy old $1 strawbales, with the sides uncovered, all natural-like, with
a plastic film vapor barrier underneath. (Yuppies and architects might use 
bright yellow $2 strawbales, with accent pumpkins.)

The cover might be

1. rigid as shown, weighing 300 pounds at 1 lb/ft^2?, made with $160's worth
of 4x8'x2" Styrofoam sheets and a few 2x4s, painted white underneath and dark
on top, with a counterweight, small reversible motor and photocontrol, or

2. a $24 flat polyethylene pillow, filled with tiny cold bubbles at night, and
air during the day, using a $50 wet/dry shop vac with a bubble sensor in the
return line (how do we make that?) to make bubbles out of a soapy water puddle
at the bottom of the plastic film and collect them at the top, for a few
seconds every few hours. The cover might be on the bottom if people were in
this large hot tub, and they would want to be careful to neither slip nor
puncture the plastic film, nor crawl underneath, as one solar pool heating
professional suggested. The north half of the poly film overhead might be
painted white, to reflect more sun down into the water on a winter day.

3. Another way to make a cover is to assemble $30 worth of 4" solid thinwall
PVC drainage pipe on the floor of the tank, into a 30x8' picture frame, lay
some plastic mesh on top for reinforcement, place an inch of concrete over
that, then $120 worth of 2" Styrofoam on top of that, and some very thin
thin reinforced concrete slabs, pieces of slate, or 1/2" of pebbles over that.
If all goes well, when you fill the PVC pipe with a little air at 2 psi from
a 340 cfm, 150 mph $49 Sears leaf blower (?) to make a maximum bouyant force
of about 640 pounds, the cover might magically rise up to the top, and people
could sleep on it at night. A guest room. With a klaxon and automated
"Dive! Dive! Dive!" announcement a few seconds before the cover sinks at dawn
the next morning to absorb sun into the water through a single layer of
plastic film on top?

4. Or, you might lift the neutrally-bouyant slab with a polyethylene film
cover on top, by inflating that. More at night than during the day, when
the floor would be awash. Or you could haul the cover up out of the water
with a rope harness and a $149 Sears garage door opener, which some people
use to haul boats out of the water.

This could become a serious hobby. Or even a business.

What would the average water temperature be in December? Where I live,
the south wall might receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun, of which 90%
might make it through the outer layer of plastic film and 80% be reflected
>from  the white surface overhead, and 90% of that might fall into the water,
so the average daily solar gain into the water might be 1000x256x0.9x0.8x0.9
= 166 K Btu. The greenhouse might be 70 F on an average December day in the
Philadelphia area, with some sun, or warmer if there's a reflecting surface
to the south. 

The pool would mainly lose heat through the "solar pool cover," over a 6 hour
solar collection day, so if there were no useful heat output from the pool,
it might have an average steady-state stagnation water temp T such that
166K Btu = 6(T-70)240 ft^2/R1 ==> T = 70 + 166K/(6x240) = 185 F. Warm enough
to cook lobsters?

The thermal conductance of the pool with the cover in place would be about

    320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the cover,
  + 320 ft^2/R50 =  6 for the walls,
  + 320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the bottom,
    for a total of 70 Btu/hr-F,

and the average temp inside the greenhouse might be 50 F in December, so if
the pool temp were 130 F, say, the top and sides of the pool might lose
24(130-50)70 = 134 K Btu/day, and the 4x8x32x64 = 65,536 pounds of water
might lose 134K/66K = 2 F on a cloudy day, and another 2 F if it supplied
a modern house with the heat equivalent of a gallon of oil per day.

And another 1 F if it were supplying hot water for the house, via some hot
water plastic pipe running around the top edge... How much plastic pipe area
do we need to heat 3 gpm of water from 55 F to 110 F in 130 F water? We need
to transfer 3x8x(110-55) = 1320 Btu of heat in a minute, or about 80 K Btu/hr
(23 kW), which we might do across a liquid-liquid interface with an R0.1 thin
PVC pipe wall between (copper pipe might make this R0.03, and tend to inhibit
algae growth in the pool), with an average temperature difference of something
like 50 F, so we'd need a pipe surface area A such that 80K = 50 A /R0.1, so 
A = 0.1x80K/50 = 160 ft^2. A $4 10'x4" PVC pipe has an area of Pix4/12x10
= 10.5 ft^2 and a volume of 3.14x(1/6)^2x10 = 0.87 ft^3 (which would displace
$1.77 worth of concrete at $55/yd^3.) So, do we need 16 of these 10' pipes?
I don't think so, since we do not or should not use 3 gpm of hot water for
more than about 20 minutes at a time, ie 60 gallons or 7.5 cubic feet, or
about 8 pipefuls of water, or 80 linear feet of pipe, once around the top
edge, just under the water surface. 

Now, how can we keep this pipe half full of air, to float the pool cover?

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High-performance, low-cost solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:33 EDT 1996
Article: 1276 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Meanwhile, in Oklahoma...
Date: 11 Oct 1996 11:54:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 245
Message-ID: <53lqkb$nma@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1276 alt.energy.renewable:18553 alt.architecture.alternative:8445 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9454

>I am building a house and plan to have a solar closet and sunspace as
>you describe except that the solar closet will be in the sunspace instead of
>in the house.

There would be more heat loss from the closet that way at night to the
low-thermal-mass sunspace, when the sunspace gets cold, than if 5 walls
of the closet were inside the warmer house at night, with only the south
wall exposed to the sunspace, but it seems to me that the sunspace can be
a less-expensive space than the 24 hour living space of the house, and
you can just use a little more insulation in the solar closet walls...

For instance, the sunspace might be a plastic film greenhouse costing less
than a dollar per square foot, with a pebble floor over some plastic film as
a vapor barrier, and the solar closet walls might be strawbales. So, that
makes sense to me.. Why waste $75/ft^2 house living space for a solar closet
if it can live "outdoors" in a $5/ft^2 sunspace?

I'm planning to put the solar closet inside the sunspace in our youth
hostel project, vs extending the living space. If we put it inside the
existing 10x12' structure, there would be a lot less living space.

We may end up with something that looks like this

                       -------------
  south               |    |        |
                      | ss |existing|
                      | ---|  shed  | 12'
                      || DD|        |
                      || DD|        |
                      || DD|        |
                      | ---|        |
                       ---- --------
                         8'    10'

                         ^
			 |
			 new 8'x12' sunspace, with 2 layers of 6 drums,
surrounded by 6" of fiberglass insulation... (We would need fewer drums
without the recent architectural additions of 72 ft^2 of single pane windows
and sliding doors, and 12 ft^2 of single pane skylight, but hey, who wants
to live in a refrigerator.)

I wonder about shading within the sunspace... if your house and solar
closet and sunspace look like this

                            -----------------
                           |                 |
                           |                 |
                           |                 |
                       ----|                 |
                      |    |                 |
                      |    |                 |
  south               |    |                 |
                      | ss |                 |
                      |    |---              |
                      |    |   |             |
                      |    | sc|             |
                      |    |   |             |
                       ---- -----------------






  and the
  sun is
  over here,

then the solar closet does not shade the sunspace, but

if your house and solar closet and sunspace look like this

                            -----------------
                           |                 |
                           |                 |
                           |                 |
                       ----|                 |
                      |    |                 |
  south               |    |                 |
                      |    |                 |
                      | ss |                 |
                      | ---|                 |
                      ||   |                 |
                      ||sc |                 |
                      | ---|                 |
                       ---- -----------------




  and the
  sun is
  over here,

it seems to me we have less sun falling into the sunspace, ie the NW corner
of the solar closet is in shade. Am I confused about this? Probably :-)
The sunspace receives the same amount of sun through the glazing in either
case, right? So who cares what the internal shade patterns are? It receives
the same amount of daily solar energy in either case. If I keep writing that,
I may end up believing it.

>I plan to have a gas or electric water heater upstairs above the closet in a
>system as you described. I have a couple of  details that I hope you will
>help me with.

OK. I'll try.

>1. Since the solar closet will be used to heat domestic hot water the closet
>would need to be heated year round.

Right. But not exactly "heated." The solar closet glazing needs to be unshaded,
but the sunspace does not have to have a high temperature in the summer. The
solar closet will be happy in its normal winter environment, eg 70 F during
the day. It makes sense to keep the solar closet in the sunspace to help avoid
heating the house in the summer. (My old stone house has a "summer kitchen"
off the north side, which I use as a walk-in refrigerator/kitchen in winter.)
If the solar closet were inside the house, it would leak some heat into the
house, undesirably in summer.

>This seems to me to be a problem in my hot Oklahoma summers. Air conditioning
>is actually more of a concern in our hot humid climate than heating since
>I don't yet have a non-electric solution except to sweat :-).

I see your point. Perhaps you could use a fan. Or a heat sink. Or an unheated
waterbed? A swimming pool? A floating pool chair filled with water? A beanbag
filled with copper BBs, or Cryogel Iceballs? A cold water bottle worn inside 
your shirt, with some tubes to allow warmer water to flow up into your
double-walled convective pith helmet shaped cooler or clip-on hollow Martian
antennae? (Real Goods might carry these.) Wear fighter pilot pants inflated
with water instead of air? Use a tiny air conditioner to inflate your pants,
or a hemispherical hair dryer hat, raining a shower of cool dry air over your
body, after it passes through a sun-baked but now cooler dessicant cartridge?
(Why don't those hair dryers suck the warm air back into the heater at the
bottom of the helmet, instead of spraying it out into the room?) Live in the
basement? Lose a little weight to decrease your internal energy generation 
and increase your surface to volume ratio? Grow heat-conductive hair? Some
sort of rectal heat exchanger? Just a few suggestions :-)

>I've thought of one solution. To eliminate the need to heat the closet in
>the summer I could have a separate solar water heater that sits away from
>the house that would be used only in the summer.

That would work, but why have two? Moving heat any distance can be lossy
and/or expensive with insulated pipes, even as hot water.

You could vent the sunspace during the summer, without shading it...
Or even remove the sunspace glazing entirely, which might make it last
longer, if it were plastic film. The solar closet glazing is a smaller
area than the sunspace glazing (8x12', if you are making hot water?) so
maybe you could somehow shade part of the sunspace glazing by hanging some
shadecloth over it on the outside in the summer, without shading the smaller
solar closet glazing. Or put lots of insulation between the sunspace and
living space, so a warm sunspace won't heat up the house much. You can figure
this out with numbers, but I'd just use lots of natural ventilation in the
summer, maybe opening up the endwalls completely, floor to ceiling.

How about venting the sunspace to the outside, and unrolling a piece of
greenhouse shadecloth over the dark north sun-absorbing wall of the sunspace
during the summer, with an air gap between the shading and the house wall,
without covering the smaller solar closet glazing? That may be easier to do,
geometrically.

Come to think of it, this would make the sunspace more usable and a more
efficient solar collector in winter too, with cool house air flowing out into
the sunspace on a sunny day, so the sunspace is basically full of 70 F air,
which is then heated up to 100 F, maybe, as it passes from south to north
_through_ the shadecloth mesh absorber and back into the house. This is more
efficient and comfortable than having the entire sunspace filled with 100 F
air on a sunny winter day (we measured 157 F in our 2'x4'x8' tall outdoor
test structure sunspace last winter, and my 600 ft^2 solar attic was 125 F
a couple of days ago.) So maybe the shadecloth should be permanently hanging
a few inches away from the north wall of the sunspace, ie the wall between
the sunspace and house, except for the solar closet glazing. You might have
an umbrella over your picnic table in the sunspace, for shade...

This would also increase the solar collection efficiency of the sunspace
because some sun would pass through the shadecloth and heat up the wall
behind it, and the shadecloth would block reradiation. I wonder what the
optimum shadecloth density is. Allowing some sun to pass through it is
better than allowing none, or all of it. This arrangement would also
add the shadecloth area (both sides) to the sun-air heat transfer area,
decreasing the "absorber plate temperature" and reradiation loss.

                                              .
Like this, maybe:                           .  solar 
                                          .    attic?
					.. ..........
                                     .  >. . ==> 100 F air
                                   .    >.^.
                                  .     >.^.  house
                                 .  70 F>.^.
              reflecting pond?   .  air >. . <==  70 F air
....................................................................
                                         ^ dark shadecloth

Another thing: it seems to me that in hot humid places, it might be a good
idea to have some material that absorbs water vapor in the sunspace, eg
a vermiculite or zeolite or calcium chloride pebble or very thin reinforced
concrete floor, or a shallow polyethylene glycol pool or slow wet-wall
waterfall/fountain (PG can absorb 11x its weight in water.) We wouldn't want
too much thermal mass or and RC time constant much more than an hour or two
in the sunspace, but if we could vent the sunspace to the outside during the
day, and let the hygroscopic material, eg the floor, heat up and bake dry
in the sun, and then close the vents and let it cool off at night, and then
allow airflow between the house and the sunspace in the early AM before dawn,
we might be able to dehumidify the house this way.

Materials that do not change their chemistry when they absorb water heat up
the air as they do so, but Richard Komp says some materials which do change
their chemistry don't heat up the air as they absorb water, or they do,
but they cool off at the same time, so the net absorption reaction is not
exothermic.
 
>2. What diameter tube is typically used with the "fin tube" collector? You
>reference a fin tube base board heater. Would one or several of these work
>for the collector?

I'd use 3/4" baseboard. That's what Steve Baer uses in Big Fins, and they
seem to work fine by natural convection, as far as the water flow goes. 
Having to use a tiny pump would not be a disaster, in my book, but it seems
better to make the plumbing in the convection loop with few bends, and use
natural warmwater convection. If the fin tube is inside the solar closet,
up along the ceiling, you should not have to worry about freezing, but the
piping that connects through the sunspace to the water heater upstairs
might want to be insulated. 
 
>3.What about insulation under the floor of the house with a masonry floor?
>Do you feel it would be worth while? Seems to me that it would help in the
>winter but reduce the cooling effect in the summer.

Ground coupling could be an advantage. A cold source for better push-pull
house temp control, even in the winter, and a way to condense some water,
maybe, and heat sink, if you decide to build a closed cycle solar thermal
engine to make electricity with refrigerant gases or low boiling point
solutions of ethyl alcohol, hexane, etc, like those "hand boiler" toys :-)
A roof pond or reflecting pond might help cool the house in the summer,
in dry weather. 

>Your drawing shows it under the closet but not the house in your paper.

We didn't intend to show any floor details. 

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:34 EDT 1996
Article: 1277 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:04:48 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <325EFCBF.7F3E@patriot.net>
References: <52evg9$984@news.pathcom.com> <53de2u$3su@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eevu$3r3@news.pathcom.com> <01bbb63b$85dd0200$492349c2@mlobrien> <53j6dp$9cj@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-30.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1277 alt.architecture.alternative:8453 alt.energy.renewable:18563 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9456

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Marc O'Brien <Mlobrien@btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> >       Andrew my impression is that Nick is a free minded creator with the
> >characteristic light hearted attitude.
> 
> I do tend to minimize the actual work of building things, but it seems to me
> that there are a lot of people in the world who are better at building things
> than I am, things that don't leak or fall down, even. Perhaps my niche is
> suggesting different ways of building things, from a thermal point of view.

Suggesting is one thing; berating people for not implementing your whims
or preferences is another.

> I prefer low-cost materials, at least at first, especially for experimental
> systems like bubblewalls, but I think it's important to bear in mind that
> solar structures can have many different architectural forms, with equivalent
> engineering principles and performance, and that cost/performance ratio is
> often more important than performance itself.

As always in architect, one must also consider aesthetics.  If you want
to promote lower costs, then consider earth ships.
 
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:35 EDT 1996
Article: 1278 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n2van.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar pool heating
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:13:04 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <53jf7m$o8d@news.pathcom.com>
References: <01bbb5fa$cb470020$0b3f708e@cmoc3o.qc.bell.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l10.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

"Serv Adm" <serv.adm@qc.bell.ca> wrote:

>I built last year a solar pool heather with 6 4'x8' black Coroplast sheets
>(192 sq. fo.) on my roof. Water going out from the pool filter is going
>thru
>theses panels and going back to the pool. I want to evaluate the efficiency
>of my system. Could someone help? Here is a little more info: there are
>6000 litres
>of water circulating thru the panels in an hour. Water coming out from the
>system
>is 2 degres (celcius) higher than water going in the panels. How much BTU
>my
>system is developping?

>I live near Montreal (Quebec) Canada.

>Philippe Lavoie
>plhs@cam.org

96:10:10

Dear Philippe

Did you want an answer in US, Imperial, or SI units !<)

Before showing you the calculation, I would like to point out that the
accuracy of both the flow rate through the panels and the temperature
rise across the panels is critical to get an accurate performance
estimate. Being off by one degree C. can represent a 33% - 50%
difference in performance!

First the amount of heat you are collecting = mass flow x speciific
heat x temperature difference.

>From  your numbers (using Imperial units) this becomes

13200 lbs/hr x 1 btu/lb F x 3.6 degrees F. = 47,520 BTU/hr

The estimate of the amount of solar energy the panels are seeing can
only be a guess, because I don't know the angle at which they are
facing the sun, or the time of day. However, making the assumption
they are facing more or less South and at an angle within 30 degrees
of normal to the sun, and that it was a sunny day when you took the
measurements, the calculation would be: area of solar collector x
average insolation of sun (energy of sunshine)

Which becomes:  6 (panels) x 32 ft^2  x 300 BTU/ft^2 hr

Which equals: 192 x 300 = 57,600 BTU/hr

The efficiency of  your solar system is then  output/input =
47,520/57600 = 82.2 %

This is a damn fine number!

Many commercial products would be hard pressed to match this
performance. The design you have is actually the most common of the
commercial products using (custom) extrusions similar to coroplast. I
tried build panels from this material 22 years ago. I could never get
the headers to stick to the board permenantly. Most coroplast is not
designed for long term full-sun exposure. It will likely harden and
become vulnerble to cracking in a couple of years. Until then enjoy
your system and  (note to a fellow Canadian) don't let it freeze.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1279 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:53:44 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <325EFA27.7431@patriot.net>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dfmc$43s@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53eddp$pnv@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com> <53h23k$i8@news.pathcom.com> <53kf0d$r5q$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-30.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1279 alt.energy.renewable:18569 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9457

Sylvan Butler wrote:
> 
> Andrew McKegney (sunone@pathcom.com) wrote:
> >Another approach that solar pool heater owners can use is to run the
> >solar systems at night. (In fact some of the better solar controllers
>  ...
> >The solar panels lose heat to the sky (which has a cooler temperature
> >on clear nights than the air), which cools the pool down. As noted
> 
> This makes absolutely no sense.  The amount of radient energy in 100deg
> water is trivial.  Isn't the air temp the only concern, and the air temp
> is usually cooler on clear nights?

Radiant energy is exchanged with the night sky, which can be "seen" by
the panels at very low temperatures.  Any number of factors, i.e.,
cloudy cover, smog,etc can reduce the transfer rate.

An intro to thermodynamics would be a good investment.

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

"Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post (or one posting trolls) to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts or logic."    - bashford@psnw.com


From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1280 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!n3tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:14:30 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53bi0u$v10@news.pathcom.com> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53edt9$379@news.pathcom.com> <53h28q$s6a@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com> <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l10.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1280 alt.energy.renewable:18572 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9458

jimfrizz@iol.ie (Seamus) wrote:

>sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)   said that:
>>
>>You should get a copy - you have a lot to learn about pools.
>>
>>Andrew McKegney C.E.T.

>I for one have just about had it with this arrogant salesperson and he
>gets my killfile vote.

>The day is better already.
>Jim

It would appear Jim that  you  don't know what your talking about
either, Just like your friend Mr. Pine

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1281 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!info.ucla.edu!CTCnet!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!n3tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:13:52 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <53me76$q7l@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53g3sh$7vn@news05.deltanet.com> <53h23k$i8@news.pathcom.com> <53kf0d$r5q$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net> <53l8di$l5g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l10.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1281 alt.energy.renewable:18573 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9459

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Sylvan Butler <sylvan@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>  ...
>>>The solar panels lose heat to the sky (which has a cooler temperature
>>>on clear nights than the air), which cools the pool down. As noted
>>
>>This makes absolutely no sense.  The amount of radient energy in 100deg
>>water is trivial.  Isn't the air temp the only concern, and the air temp
>>is usually cooler on clear nights?

>100 F water has a an absolute temp of 560 R, no? It radiates energy at about
>0.174 x 10^-8 560^4 = 171 Btu/hr-ft^2 to the surroundings, which also radiate
>energy back at the water. If the surroundings have a temperature of 0 F,
>they only radiate heat back to the water at a rate of 78 Btu/hr-ft^2, for a
>net heat loss of 93 Btu/hr-ft^2. Perhaps a clear sky can be colder than 0 F. 
> 
>Nick

I believe your calculations are resaonably accurate (after having
checked my ASHREA handbooks), but you didn't follow through to
illustrate the significance of the heat loss.

If we use the surface area of the  pool you have previously used (24'
x 36') we end up with a heat loss of 93 x 864 = 80352 BTU / hr. Using
a 10 hour "night" that becomes 803,520 BTUs. 

If the pool has a volume of water 270,000 lbs of water, this heat loss
would be equivalent to 803,520/270,000 = 2.98 say 3.0 degrees F.

That is only the heat loss by Radiation. Heat losses from
convection/evapouration and conduction (to the ground) are in addition
to this.

If the pool is covered, all forms of heat loss will be significantly
reduced. The solar panels will lose heat primarily by radiation to the
night sky, if the air temperature is the same as the pool temperature.
If water is sprayed onto the solar panels at night they will also lose
heat by evapouration. (Not recommended in areas with hard water. Hard
water deposits would likely reduce the absorbtivity of the solar
panels.) This approach is far better than draining warm water from the
pool and adding cold water, as you take advantage of the latent heat
of cooling (requiring 144 times less water).

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:39 EDT 1996
Article: 1282 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 12 Oct 1996 09:02:01 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <53o4s9$b3e@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53kf0d$r5q$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net> <53l8di$l5g@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53me76$q7l@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1282 alt.energy.renewable:18577 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9461

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>...adding cold water, as you take advantage of the latent heat
>of cooling (requiring 144 times less water).

Sounds like you are adding ice.

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1283 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: 12 Oct 1996 08:58:27 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53i33d$c1u@news.pathcom.com> <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie> <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1283 alt.energy.renewable:18578 alt.architecture.alternative:8456 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9462

Which is less expensive or more convenient for space heating, more solar
glazing and thermal mass, or more insulation? And how little backup fuel do
we want to use? A direct gain house can easily save 20% of an oil bill, but
to save or 90 or 100%, we need to change techniques. Steve Baer says it's
easy to make a 100% solar heated house. Just turn off the backup system.
He also says the greatest discovery of solar investigators has been that
if we use lots and lots of insulation, we need very little heat for a house,
>from  the sun or any other source. But superinsulation doesn't heat water.

And when David Boyer and I put 200 free 55 gallon drums full of water in his
local $1000, 20x100' R1 plastic film greenhouse last winter, a structure the
size of a house, with 1/20 the usual wall insulation, his propane heating
bill changed from $8,000 the winter before to $1,500 last winter. That was
a better first step than insulation. And I only used 25 gallons of oil last
winter to heat my old 4 bedroom stone house with 2 R10 and 2 R2 walls. 

We might build a 100% solar house in the Seattle that has a very large time
constant, and no solar glazing at all. Open it up in the summer, and let the
air heat it up, and close it up more in the winter, when it's cold outside.
How about a Monolithic Dome, half full of water, with a houseboat inside? :-)

An indoor pool, perhaps with fish... A water supply and heat sink and sewage
treatment system? Monolithic has been building these domes for 20 years now,
all over the world, and some of them are very large, eg 260' hemispheres,
and they have been used as water tanks, with no extra waterproofing. So...
Hire someone to build the dome in the normal way, for $25/ft^2 of base area,
then build a house inside, without much weatherproofing, then seal up the
dome door below and flood it? No need to worry about floods :-)

Or hold up the house with beams or cables into the concrete walls, in a more
normal way, and excavate first, so the pool is underground, and the house is
at ground level... In that case, the foam and concrete might not need to be
so thick. How would we warm or cool the water? Perhaps let air flow in over
the water through some holes in the dome perimeter at ground level, with a
vapor barrier floating on top of the water. 

How big would the dome have to be to get through a 6,000 degree day F winter
with a temperature change of less than 10 F, without using any solar glazing
at all? We need a time constant of about 1 year, roughly 10,000 hours. A
standard Monolithic Dome hemisphere has 3" of R20 exterior foam with 2" of
reinforced concrete inside. Filling it up with water completely makes
RC = 20/(2Pir^2) x 2/3Pir^3x64 lb/ft^3 = 427 r = 10,000, so r = 10,000/427
= 24 feet. If the 300 tons of water inside were 78 F in the fall, and it
lost 24x6000x1152ft^2/R20 = 8 million Btu of heat over the winter, the water
would be 65 F in the spring. Expand the dome to 40', a more normal size for
a house, use less water, add some solar glazing, eg some windows above, or
a transparent skirt around the lower south quarter, outside of the foam, with
an air gap between, and a Northwest winter should be no problem.

How about building a house on top of a strawbale pond foundation, inside a
$1/ft^2 commercial plastic film greenhouse? The ponds might be 2 bales deep,
about 32" tall, inside a standard 30' wide greenhouse like this: 

     ---                  .
                   .             .           
               .                     .          
     15'     .                         .     
           .                             .
          .                               .   
         .                                 . ----
        .b                b                b. 32" 
     ....b................b................b.................
        |                30'                |

        .....................................
        . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ---
        . .               . .     13'     . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . . 62'         . . 64'
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . .               . .             . .
        . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
        ..................................... ---

The 2 ponds might be 13' wide x 62' long x 32" deep inside, made with about
170 bales and a few 2x4s and dacron rope and ground stakes, and 2 pieces of 
EPDM rubber, 20' wide x 70' long. They would each hold about 17K gallons of
water, enough for a good water supply. And enough to hold the structure
down without using any ground stakes, eg on a flat city roof.

The house might sit on a $3/ft^2 Corruform concrete slab, poured on top of
currugated metal, as in office construction, or some thin reinforced 15'x 8'
concrete slabs, with a rib along the bottom. The concrete would act as a
vapor barrier above, and we might add a vapor barrier under the concrete,
eg a floating vapor barrier on the water, some sort of plastic film or oil.

Build the house out of strawbales, too? Unweatherproofed ones, since this
house is out of the weather. With an arched unweatherproofed roof with bales
running lengthwise south to north, on top of a vapor barrier, with 2x4s on
18" centers running east and west under that, attached to some flat arched
2x4s under that, and a few horizontal north-south tension members under that?

As to thermal performance, strawbales are about R50, so we have (roughly)
RC = R50/2000 ft^2x32"/12x2x13x62x64 = 6877 hours, or 287 days or 41 weeks
or 9.4 months. Not quite passive annual heat storage, but this stucture has
a lot of glazing, and it could have a ceiling fan blowing some warm air down
under the length of the floor. If we start off with this house at 68 F on
December 1, where I live, where the average December temperature is 36 F,
it might cool to 36 + (68-36)exp(-30/287) = 64.8 F after a cloudy month.
We rarely get 30 cloudy days in a row. Perhaps that happens more often in
Seattle, where the average December temperature is 40.5 F, and the average 
amount of sun that falls on a south wall in December is 420 Btu/ft^2/day.

How warm could we make this house in Seattle? 420x15x64x0.9 = 363K of sun
might get into the greenhouse, on an average 6 hour solar collection day,
and if the strawbale roof touched the peak of the greenhouse, so not much
heat was lost from the north side during the day, 6hr(T-40.5)960ft^2/R0.8
= 7200(T-40.5) Btu/day would be lost through a single layer of poly film,
and another 18hr(T-40.5)2000ft^2/R50 = 720(T-40.5) Btu would be lost during
the night, so 7920(T-40.5) = 363K, ie T = 40.5 + 363K/7.9K = 86 F.

Sounds good to me, especially since we didn't count the sun that falls on a
horizontal surface in December. Or in June. But cooling is another story. 

Nick



From aaasolar@rt66.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:40 EDT 1996
Article: 1284 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!mack.rt66.com!usenet
From: Chuck Marken <aaasolar@rt66.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Low-Cost solar collectors - Info request
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:55:29 -0600
Organization: Rt66.COM, Public Internet Access in New Mexico
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <325ED061.674A@rt66.com>
References: <0000599d+00000268@msn.com>
Reply-To: aaasolar@rt66.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmg27.rt66.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U)

Richard Magee wrote:
> 
>   I would like to build a solar heat system for my home. If anyone
> has information on where I might get plans to build or purchase Low
> Cost Solar collectors.
>   I Live in Boston, Massachusetts and would like to supplement our
> home heating system.
> 
>                            Rick Magee
>                            ffrick@msn.com

Rick, You should consider used liquid collectors. We have many sizes
available, 4' x 8' being the most popular. They run about 150 to $200
ea. depending on brand and condition. This is 1/2 to 1/3 the price of
new collectors. Check out our site at http://www.rt66.com/aaasolar or
e-mail aaasolar@rt66.com with a snail mail address for a free catalog,
poatage free in the USA and Canada, $5 everywhere else.

Chuck


From petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Oct 16 22:38:41 EDT 1996
Article: 1285 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!scream.ing.com!freenet!petroski
From: Brian K Petroski <petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:06:45 -0500
Organization: gofast.net -- ISDN ISP for MPLS/STPL
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961012134531.16934A-100000-100000-100000@freenet>
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.msp.mn.us
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: petroski@freenet
In-Reply-To: <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1285 alt.energy.renewable:18593 alt.architecture.alternative:8473 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9465

On 12 Oct 1996, Nick Pine wrote:

> And when David Boyer and I put 200 free 55 gallon drums full of water in his
> local $1000, 20x100' R1 plastic film greenhouse last winter, a structure the
> size of a house, with 1/20 the usual wall insulation, his propane heating
> bill changed from $8,000 the winter before to $1,500 last winter. That was
> a better first step than insulation. And I only used 25 gallons of oil last
> winter to heat my old 4 bedroom stone house with 2 R10 and 2 R2 walls. 

     I agree.  We can build 100% solar homes with sufficient thermal mass 
and only moderate insulation.  My plan is to build a 40' wooden geodesic 
dome and cover it with an earth mound.  Then a few inches of  insulation 
on th mound and another earth covering, enough to let grass root on top 
of it.  The house will have solar gain from the southern exposed face and 
summer heat will be pumped into the mound through air tubes.  In the 
winter the air flow will be reversed to take the heat out of the mound 
into the house.  This design in for Minnesota and I see no reason it 
won't work anywhere in the U.S. simply by adjusting the size of the mound 
and the times when the air flow runs.  In southern states for example a 
rather small mound can store daytime heat for cool nights and thereby 
also provide a level of air conditioning.


			    Brian Petroski
			Just your stereotypical
			      polysexual,
			       bisexual
			    solitary pagan
		       from St. Paul, Minnesota





From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Wed Oct 16 22:38:42 EDT 1996
Article: 1286 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 21:16:01 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am STILL not sure from all the hype and calculations when I should
take my cover off if the air temp is warmer than the water temp?????
Forget philadelphia!
This is Brisbane Australia!
During the day (like now at 6a.m ) it is around 18 C and will get up
to 26-28 C during the middle of the day and go bback to 15-16
overnight.
My pool temp is about 22C - late afternoon, and I haven't done a
series of various daytime measurements yet..
I want it warmer!
When does heat gain from air temp better the loss from evaporation.
Rough simple approximations is all I require, but probably should
relate water temp to air temp rather than stuff like ..."when its a
warm day"... that depends if you live in Antractica or Manilla!!!!
Thanks to all who have been game to broach this topic -
fascinating!!!!



From mail.crosslink.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:43 EDT 1996
Article: 1288 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: hwalker@mail.crosslink.net (Howard Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Low-Cost solar collectors - Info request
Date: 13 Oct 1996 01:19:23 GMT
Organization: crosslink.net
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <53pg2r$lit$1@zeus.crosslink.net>
References: <0000599d+00000268@msn.com>
Reply-To: mail.crosslink.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.65.61
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

In article <0000599d+00000268@msn.com>, ffrick@msn.com says...
>
>  I would like to build a solar heat system for my home. If anyone 
>has information on where I might get plans to build or purchase Low 
>Cost Solar collectors.
>  I Live in Boston, Massachusetts and would like to supplement our 
>home heating system.
>
>                           Rick Magee
>                           ffrick@msn.com


Go to your local library and check out, "Ted Lucas....Low cost Solar 
Heating."  He wrote some damn good stuff in the late 70's - early 80's.
He is the one that got me thinking about solar heating for my pool.

Howard Walker



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:44 EDT 1996
Article: 1289 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Floating pool patios, and other divers' matters
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:23:07 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <3260609A.475@patriot.net>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53dneg$53v@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53dqp4$5k5@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53jfb8$o8d@news.pathcom.com> <53lmu7$n65@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-14.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1289 alt.energy.renewable:18602 alt.architecture.alternative:8479 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9470

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> oozed:
> 
> >Nick inflatable pool covers are not new, they have been around for
> >years and they are not cheap.
> 
> Commercial plastic film greenhouses have been around since the 60s,
> and they cost 57 cents per square foot. Inexpensive erections, too.
> Perhaps solar pool heating professionals are accustomed to paying
> large sums for erections.
> 
> >(Check out the latest issue of Pool and Spa Marketing)
> 
> There are many ways to do things wrong, as Edison found out
> 9,999 times with light bulb filaments.

Then time's a-wastin'!  Submit your patent application and the world
will beat a path to your doorway...

William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From dale@xs4all.nl Wed Oct 16 22:38:45 EDT 1996
Article: 1290 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Poor Whites?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:57:45 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <326084D9.4219@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd08-23.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-XS4ALL-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:49:35 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Are there any poor whites in SA?

If so where are they?
 
If not, why not?
 
Was there special social security for whites that was not 
available to blacks? is this still the case?

Is there private aid available for white people through 
churches or whatever, that is not available to blacks? 

This is a serious question. What are the living conditions of 
the poorer segments of the white South Aferican society.?


From dale@xs4all.nl Wed Oct 16 22:38:46 EDT 1996
Article: 1291 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!usenet
From: dale <dale@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Poor Whites?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:02:33 +0100
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <326085F9.68AF@xs4all.nl>
References: <326084D9.4219@xs4all.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asd08-23.dial.xs4all.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-XS4ALL-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:54:20 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

Sorry about that.
Accidently posted to wrong newsgroup.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:47 EDT 1996
Article: 1292 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 12 Oct 1996 20:28:16 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <53pd30$doi@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

John Harrison <John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au> wrote:

>I am STILL not sure from all the hype and calculations when I should
>take my cover off if the air temp is warmer than the water temp?????

Perhaps you need less hype and more calculations.

>Forget philadelphia!

Moving your pool to Philadelphia would simplify the calculations...

>This is Brisbane Australia!

Okokok.

>During the day (like now at 6a.m ) it is around 18 C and will get up
>to 26-28 C during the middle of the day and go bback to 15-16 overnight.

Yes... But vot is the hoomidity?

>My pool temp is about 22C - late afternoon, and I haven't done a
>series of various daytime measurements yet..

Yes... But vot is the hoomidity?
Day/night pool temp probably won't change a lot.

>I want it warmer!

Have you tried lighting 7 kitchen matches per second underneath?
Or just leaving the cover on, unless you want to go swimming?

>When does heat gain from air temp better the loss from evaporation.

When heat loss by evaporation equals heat gain by convection.
That 1926 formula perhaps, with Qe = - Qc. 

>Rough simple approximations is all I require, but probably should
>relate water temp to air temp rather than stuff like ..."when its a
>warm day"... that depends if you live in Antractica or Manilla!!!!

How about this, for a crude strategy: bury a glass of water up to its rim
in the ground and put a thermometer in it. When the sun is shining on that
spot, and the thermometer sitting in the glass full of water reads higher
than the pool temp, take off the cover. Not that it will make much difference.

Nick



From gjones@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Oct 16 22:38:48 EDT 1996
Article: 1294 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!gjones
From: c <gjones@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Brave new World???
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:35:50 -0600
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.93.961012133405.21660J-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gjones@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII



Need info re: independant heating systems
ie: heat pumps and solar power...

Totally independant living experiment...on paper or reality..
it all depends on the interest..
The facility exists...

G.



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:49 EDT 1996
Article: 1295 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:52:11 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <32613A5A.50FE@patriot.net>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961012134531.16934A-100000-100000-100000@freenet>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-36.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1295 alt.energy.renewable:18625 alt.architecture.alternative:8491 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9475

Brian K Petroski wrote:
> We can build 100% solar homes with sufficient thermal mass
> and only moderate insulation.  My plan is to build a 40' wooden geodesic
> dome and cover it with an earth mound.  Then a few inches of  insulation
> on th mound and another earth covering, enough to let grass root on top
> of it.  

Of course, earth is an effect insulation, depending on depth and water
content.  

> The house will have solar gain from the southern exposed face and
> summer heat will be pumped into the mound through air tubes. 

What will be the heat storage meduim?  Air, earth, or water?  Have you
considered calculating Qin vs. Qout for an entire season?  How much BTUs
do you plan to store?  I have looked at similar configurations and have
not been able to identify a practical seasonal storage.  Ideally, a
phase change material (i.e., water to ice) can be used in order to
reduce the mass and volume of the storage material. However, phase
change materials usually have a melting/solidifying point that is
favorable for either heat or cold storage, not both.

> In the
> winter the air flow will be reversed to take the heat out of the mound
> into the house.  This design in for Minnesota and I see no reason it
> won't work anywhere in the U.S. simply by adjusting the size of the mound
> and the times when the air flow runs.  

The southern states tend to have more humidity, hence condensation
problems that promote the growth of mold and other nasty agents.  I
pursued a design using earth tubes and am going with a ground-source
heat pump instead.

> In southern states for example a
> rather small mound can store daytime heat for cool nights and thereby
> also provide a level of air conditioning.

You need to consider having two storage mediums, as heat gathered during
the summer needs to stored separately from the cold being used for air
conditioning.

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From rbean@earth.execpc.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:49 EDT 1996
Article: 1296 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!posts.execpc.com!earth.execpc.com!not-for-mail
From: rbean@earth.execpc.com (Ron Bean)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: 13 Oct 1996 15:32:49 -0500
Organization: Exec-PC
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <53rjlh$f3p@earth.alpha.net>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie> <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com> <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: earth-le1.execpc.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1296 alt.energy.renewable:18630 alt.architecture.alternative:8493 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9476


nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>How about a Monolithic Dome, half full of water, with a houseboat inside? :-)

(ROTFL)

Wouldn't it get kind of humid in there?
I'd skip the dome and the straw bales and just put a pole building over it.
(Just make sure the head has a holding tank...)

I've always wanted to live on a houseboat...


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:51 EDT 1996
Article: 1297 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: 14 Oct 1996 07:43:27 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <53t90v$ft1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com> <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53rjlh$f3p@earth.alpha.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1297 alt.energy.renewable:18645 alt.architecture.alternative:8501 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9479

Ron Bean <rbean@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>
>>How about a Monolithic Dome, half full of water, with a houseboat inside? :-)
>
>Wouldn't it get kind of humid in there?

Sure, without a vapor barrier.

>I'd skip the dome and the straw bales and just put a pole building over it.

Sounds cool.

>(Just make sure the head has a holding tank...)

Not necessarily. Perhaps just a stack vent, and a macerator/chlorinator,
with the chlorinator turned off. Wastewater treatment with large warm
reservoirs can be very effective.

Nick



From eastceo@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:52 EDT 1996
Article: 1298 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: eastceo@worldnet.att.net (Michael Fillmore)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Slab
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:43:12 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <32634268.2878124@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 244.bridgeton-060.mo.dial-access.att.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/16.299

Need ideas for back porch slab. The slab is moving slowly away from
the house it was poured next to. I currently plan to put in a footing
around the sab about two to three feet deep. Ideas?
Mike


From daniel@laser.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:53 EDT 1996
Article: 1299 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!usenet
From: daniel@smtp1.laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:55:29 -0400
Organization: LaserNet
Lines: 385
Message-ID: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net>
Reply-To: daniel@laser.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx37.laser.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1299 alt.architecture.alternative:8505 alt.energy.renewable:18654 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9485

"Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com> wrote:

>        Andrew my impression is that Nick is a >free minded creator with t=
he
>characteristic light hearted attitude. You might >be too heavy and serious=

>to gain anything out of this thread. Seems to me >we have the business man=

>rediculing the scientist, type of thing. I'm not >saying you aren't a
>scientist, you're just from another necessary >nitch in the big picture th=
at
>won't bare much fruit from interaction from Nicks >kind where others would=

>harvest huge spin-offs. But then who the hell am I >?
>-- =

>Marc O'Brien
>Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

I come into this thread late but I=B9m sure I haven=B9t =

missed a thing. I too am a solar professional. I =

too have wasted vast amounts of time trying to give =

a practical perspective to Mr. Pine=B9s posts. And I =

too have been personally attacked and had my =

intelligence and integrity challenged by Mr. Pine =

for my trouble.

Nick a free minded creator? Has he created thing =

one? What I see is a huge amount of time spent =

attempting to destroy, denigrate, demean and =

demonize what=B9s left of the solar profession. A =

scientist? I was taught that a scientist published =

his or her hypotheses as a starting point for an in =

depth report on the set up and progress and =

conclusions of a replicable, controlled experiment. =

Maybe I=B9m wrong, but I can=B9t see Edison or Bell or =

Fulton or the Wright brothers spending their R and =

D time railing against the existing structure of =

the lighting, communication or transportation =

industries. They simply built a better product. A =

theorist? Yes. A postulator? You bet. A =

mathematician? Maybe. A scientist? NOT!

I recognize how attractive Mr. Pine=B9s ideas are. If =

someone used three pages of mathematical proofs to =

show me how I could have an industrial =

refrigeration device at one tenth the cost of a =

=B3conventional=B2 one, I=B9d want to believe. If you, as =

the industry professional, saw a flaw in the =

cardboard compressor design, you would want =

potential consumers to know about the problem =

before your industry suffered from the indictment. =

Mr. Pine fancies himself a sailor. Can a =

mathematician =B3prove=B2 that his boat will go twice =

as fast if he drilled half of the weight of the =

hull away? Have you ever seen the mathematical =

proof that 1=3D0? Would he accept the argument at =

face value and start drilling? Would he question =

the integrity of those scam artists that sold him =

this overweight and overpriced boat?

Am I afraid of a change in the status quo? Of =

innovation? Of a new minimum cost, effective, =

efficient technology that will shake up the =

industry? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Nothing would be better! =

Shake up my industry? Hell, revolutionize it. I =

don=B9t manufacture any of these products. I don=B9t =

carry a vast inventory. I simply install and =

maintain them. If they don=B9t work, the customer has =

them yanked and I lose a customer. I have customers =

ready, willing and able to buy and install solar =

now. With exponentially more waiting in the wings =

for the price to come down and the efficiency to go =

up. I=B9m the first in line to profit from an =

improvement. My customer base would explode.  What =

exactly is my motivation for trying to squelch a =

new and innovative solar technology? Am I afraid of =

homebrewed solar? Of course not. Well, maybe so, if =

it=B9s poorly designed or installed. Who are they =

going to call when they need a part? Who are their =

neighbors going to call when they see a solar =

project that works? Conversely, who are they going =

to blame when the device doesn=B9t work up to =

expectations? Or when it leaks and ruins their =

ceiling? I have scores of customers who built their =

own and regularly call me for parts or just advise. =

Many of these customers built their own ten years =

ago and now, due to health or just the =

complications of their lives call me to do the =

things that they used to do. What I am afraid of is =

another half-baked, poorly thought out concept that =

promises the moon and can=B9t deliver, resulting in =

dissatisfied customers.

Case in point. Mr. Pine has, for more than a year, =

repeatedly asserted that with no more than plastic =

sheeting, plastic shade cloth and a 50 watt blower =

he can impart 120F into a water storage device when =

ambient air temp is 50F or below. This to me, and =

to anyone who works with solar daily, is like a =

mathematical proof that pigs can fly. If this were =

as evident to the casual reader of this group as it =

is to me, I=B9d simply dismiss it as a recurring bad =

joke. But its not. This is extremely attractive. We =

all want to believe it. We all want to believe that =

there is a magical pill that we can put in our gas =

tanks and double our gas milage. OK, so someone =

posts the mathematical proof that pigs can fly. Is =

it now incumbent upon me to prove otherwise (Lord, =

how I=B9ve tried. Graciously accepting criticism is =

not one of Mr. Pine=B9s strong suits)? Is this really =

how a scientist operates? Although this is exactly =

what he has been fishing for, someone please do Mr. =

Pine=B9s lab work for him. Please build it for him, =

ship it to him and set it up. Put Mr. Pine inside =

of it with a thermometer and instruct him not come =

out until the storage hits 120F. That will keep him =

busy until July.

Mr. Pine implicates the entirety of an industry =

with the statement,
>There is this very large and successful greenhouse
>industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the >solar heating industry. W=
hy?

>If commercial growers had to use residential
>sunspaces, they would be out of business in a >year. I think the fact that=

>people heat houses with residential sunspaces is >economically crippling
>the solar house heating industry, don't you?=B2

If you can believe that the solar industries are =

populated by nothing but dim-witted crooks who =

drive by these things every day and can=B9t put two =

and two together, the people who design, build, =

supply and work in and around greenhouses must be =

pretty slow too.

Look beyond the knee jerk reaction, though not too =

far beyond. Commercial greenhouses are FOR GROWING =

PLANTS, NOT FOR MAKING HEAT. Green plants require =

certain minimum light levels to survive and much =

more to thrive. They are used to house tropical =

plants, those that require minimum 40F or die, or =

to get up to a one month jump on the growing season =

for native species. This is the closest compromise =

available to provide light levels AND a controlled =

environment for their cash crops. Ask any grower of =

tropicals in a temperate climate what his highest =

yearly expense is. Far and away the answer is fuel =

to heat the space. Why can=B9t you buy vine ripe =

tomatoes in January? Because it=B9s not economically =

feasible to heat the greenhouse at night to keep =

them alive. Commercial growers can afford to buy =

fuel or replace their structures every 2 years =

because you give them money when you buy their =

bushes. Yes, temps in the greenhouse go up when the =

sun shines in (some stupid yet highly dishonest =

solar professional heard a scientist use the term =

=B3greenhouse effect,=B2 had the scientist spell it all =

out for him and made the first solar panel). The =

problem is, contrary to Mr. Pine=B9s opinion, that =

people do not use residential sunspaces to heat =

their homes. They use residential sunspaces to =

reside in and then throw vast amounts of money into =

the space to cool it in the summer and heat it in =

the winter when the sun goes down. The trick is, as =

Mr. Pine has figured out, to isolate the sunspace =

>from  the living area. =


He further blathers, =

>Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential >sunspaces, and the prices va=
ried
>from $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film >greenhouses cost less th=
an
>$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar >heaters.

BULLSHIT! It doesn=B9t even come close. Assertion - =

counterassertion. Prove it. Here on earth. Not just =

in your mind.

Is this a useless idea? Of course not, it=B9s a great =

idea. It=B9s been around for many, many years in =

many, many forms. Do you want to make it better? =

Use glass so you don=B9t have to replace the plastic =

every 2 or 3 years. More performance? Use low-iron =

glass to let more light in. More? Insulate the =

sides away from the sun. Even more? Use a metallic =

absorber like aluminum or copper. Better? Use a =

selective surface on the absorber to minimize =

radiant losses. Even better? Use a high capacity =

heat exchange medium like water or glycol to move =

heat away from the sunspace and into the place =

where it=B9s needed as fast as possible. Now you CAN =

get a 70F temp rise above ambient. Gee, why didn=B9t =

we ignorant and deceitful solar professionals think =

of that? Wow, we can design them to be modular and =

mass produce them. We=B9ll call them solar panels and =

sell them to an unsuspecting public. What a great =

scam.

It=B9s a fine idea. But, greatly more limited than =

Mr. Pine=B9s arithmetic shows. Someone who has no =

hidden agendas please do Mr. Pine=B9s lab work for =

him so he can quantify his work. While your at it, =

build him an R10 pool cover that people will use. =

You=B9ll both become millionaires and I will ride =

your coattails and be able to send my kids to =

college so they can further study the insights and =

prophecies of King Nick.

I can=B9t speak for Mr. McKegney, and I=B9ve missed =

most of this thread, but I=B9ve seen nothing he has =

said that I would disagree with. =


Am I too heavy and serious to gain anything out of =

this thread? Maybe so. I get that way when poorly =

informed, self important, prepossessed, pocket =

protector Bozos attempt to take food from my =

family. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Dan


From daniel@laser.net Wed Oct 16 22:38:55 EDT 1996
Article: 1300 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!usenet
From: daniel@smtp1.laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:07:00 -0400
Organization: LaserNet
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <32626524.52E@smtp1.laser.net>
Reply-To: daniel@laser.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx37.laser.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1300 alt.energy.renewable:18655 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9486

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

> Would that [glazing] make a significant difference?

>Most definitely,  I would guess that glazing would >at least double the
>efficiency.  As it stands now I benchmarked my >system as follows:  On
>5/21/94 at 1:35 PM central standard time with no >clouds and a 90 deg F
>outside air temperature the solar heater delivered >a 13 deg F
>temperature rise (77 deg entering pool water >temperature, and 90 deg F
>leaving pool water temperature).  I got >essentially the same results a
>month later.  The temperature rise goes up due to >the increased delta T
>when the pool water is colder.

Not necessarily. Glazing will increase the =

operating temperature, but may be less efficent at =

putting heat in the pool. Glazing will absorb some =

of the light before it gets to the pipe, even when =

the light source is at a right angle to the =

glazing. As the sun moves away from a right angle =

to the glazing, more and more light gets reflected =

>from  the glazing surface. Unglazed collectors make =

better use of sideways light, they have a longer =

solar day. At operating temps up to about 15 F =

(depending on light levels and winds) above ambient =

air temps, unglazed collectors are more efficient =

at turning light into heat in the pool.

In addition, as youve already figured out, the =

higher temps, especially in the dead of summer when =

youre least likely to use the heater and pull heat =

away from the collectors, can damage not only most =

roofing materials, but the plastic pipe itself.

The best thing you can do to increase your =

efficiency is to increase the flow. Maybe by =

plumbing the collectors in a parrallel design, =

increasing feed and return pipes to 1.5 or 2 inch =

and hooking to your filter pump. Your controller =

can then operate a simple diverter valve. As you =

increase flow, the temperature rise (pool water to =

collector outlet) will go down. Dont be alarmed, =

this is a good thing. The efficiency of available =

sunlight to heat in the pool is going up. As proof, =

reduce your flow to zero. The collectors heat up =

until they can hold no more and lose heat to the =

air as fast as they gain from the sun. This is your =

point of highest possible delta T (pool water to =

collector outlet) at that given moment=B9s conditions =

of light, wind, air temp, etc. Obviously, heat gain =

to the pool is zero. Trust your controller to turn =

the system off when available heat is not worth the =

trouble.
Hope this helps.

Dan


From petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Oct 16 22:38:56 EDT 1996
Article: 1301 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!scream.ing.com!freenet!petroski
From: Brian K Petroski <petroski@freenet.msp.mn.us>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:59:40 -0500
Organization: gofast.net -- ISDN ISP for MPLS/STPL
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961014124843.28830b-100000@freenet>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961012134531.16934A-100000-100000-100000@freenet> <32613A5A.50FE@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.msp.mn.us
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: petroski@freenet
In-Reply-To: <32613A5A.50FE@patriot.net> 
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1301 alt.energy.renewable:18657 alt.architecture.alternative:8508 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9487

On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Will Stewart wrote:

> Brian K Petroski wrote:
> > The house will have solar gain from the southern exposed face and
> > summer heat will be pumped into the mound through air tubes. 
> 
> What will be the heat storage meduim?  Air, earth, or water?  Have you
> considered calculating Qin vs. Qout for an entire season?  How much BTUs
> do you plan to store?  I have looked at similar configurations and have
> not been able to identify a practical seasonal storage.  Ideally, a
> phase change material (i.e., water to ice) can be used in order to
> reduce the mass and volume of the storage material. However, phase
> change materials usually have a melting/solidifying point that is
> favorable for either heat or cold storage, not both.

     The heat storage medium will be the earth mound.  I haven't 
calculated out the number of BTUs yet or the exact size of the mound.  
Yes I am fully aware that he mound needed in this climate will be 
considerably larger than the house itself.  I do not consider that to be 
a problem.  Also as I stated, some insulaton will be put on top of the 
mound so it will not loose heat as fast; this in turn will reduce the 
size of the mound needed to store enough heat.

> The southern states tend to have more humidity, hence condensation
> problems that promote the growth of mold and other nasty agents.  I
> pursued a design using earth tubes and am going with a ground-source
> heat pump instead.

     I mentioned the souther state idea just as an example.  I have not 
studied the particulars of a warmer climate as my designs are for 
Minnesota, I just wanted to say I felt they can be adapted.

> You need to consider having two storage mediums, as heat gathered during
> the summer needs to stored separately from the cold being used for air
> conditioning.

     Not at all.  One storage medium, the earth mound.  In the summer the 
mound will be cooler than the air tempurature so it will provide a 
cooling effect by absorbing heat.  After absorbing heat all summer the 
mound will be warmer than the air in the winter and so will provice a 
warming effect.  No need for two mediums, just cooking is in the charging 
stage and warming is in the discharging stage.  There was a concrete dome 
home build in Montana that uses this principle and the owner said that in 
three years he burned only 1 1/2 cords of wood for heat and the interior 
tempurature never rose above 75 degrees even when the summer temps were 
well above 90 degrees.  He then went on to explain where he had made an 
error in his calculations and that the wood heat would be completely 
eliminated by a slight increase in the mass of the earth mound or using 
slightly more insulation over it.



			    Brian Petroski
			Just your stereotypical
			      polysexual,
			       bisexual
			    solitary pagan
		       from St. Paul, Minnesota




From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1302 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 14 Oct 1996 21:41:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 195
Message-ID: <53uq4v$nbv@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1302 alt.architecture.alternative:8519 alt.energy.renewable:18673 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9497

<daniel@laser.net> fills up this screen with lots of short double spaced lines,
to wit, or lack therof:

>Nick a free minded creator? Has he created thing one?

Sure. For instance, a house in PA that used only 25 gallons of oil last winter
for heat, a 7x11' Trombe wall, on the back of a local building, the first
Intelligen cogen installation in Pennsylvania, a 2000 ft^2 greenhouse that
used $1500 of propane heat last winter, vs. $8,000 the winter before, a
2x4x8' test box that sat on a roof last winter, a bubblewall test box, and
my favorite: a simple and general scheme to design an inexpensive 100% solar
heated house that makes inexpensive solar hot water too, using some arithmetic
and NREL solar data, described in a paper physics prof Paul Bashus and I gave
at the World Renewable Energy Congress last June, sponsored by UNESCO, DOE,
NREL, The British Council, etc, and just published in the proceedings by
Pergamon Press. You can see it at http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html.
It will also be published soon in The Journal of Renewable Energy.

This winter I'm working on a 20x32' air heater for another local building,
and a 12x22' 100% solar heated building retrofit. I finished the sunspace
frame for that today, and I'll be doing some insulation tomorrow. 

>A scientist? [blah blah blah]

No, an engineer. We have enough solar scientists.

>Case in point. Mr. Pine has, for more than a year, =
>repeatedly asserted that with no more than plastic =
>sheeting, plastic shade cloth and a 50 watt blower =
>he can impart 120F into a water storage device when =
>ambient air temp is 50F or below.

Doesn't take all that. Just some plastic. Of course you have to make sure
the planets are all lined up correctly, etc :-) Let's try a little thought
experiment, Dan. Direct sun of 300 Btu/ft^2/hr is shining into a insulated box
through some R1 glazing, and the temperature outside is 30 F. Assume all the
heat is lost back out the glazing. What is the temperature inside the box?
(Hint: 330 F.)

And if you attach another insulated box to the back of the first, with some
thermal mass inside, and blow some hot air from the first box to the second
when the sun is shining, and it prevent air from flowing at night, what is
the temperature inside the second box? (Hint: 330 F.)

Now put the first box in a 70 F room instead of outdoors in 30 F air.
What happens to the temperature now?  (Hint: 400 F.)

>Mr. Pine implicates the entirety of an industry =

No, he doesn't do that...

>with the statement,
>>There is this very large and successful greenhouse
>>industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the >solar heating industry. W=
>hy?
>
>>If commercial growers had to use residential
>>sunspaces, they would be out of business in a >year. I think the fact that=
>
>>people heat houses with residential sunspaces is >economically crippling
>>the solar house heating industry, don't you?=B2
>
>If you can believe that the solar industries are =
>
>populated by nothing but dim-witted crooks who =
>
>drive by these things every day and can=B9t put two =
>
>and two together, the people who design, build, =
>
>supply and work in and around greenhouses must be =
>
>pretty slow too.

Amazing, isn't it? You seem to be acting dim-wittedly, Dan, but not crookedly.

>Look beyond the knee jerk reaction, though not too =
>
>far beyond. Commercial greenhouses are FOR GROWING =
>
>PLANTS, NOT FOR MAKING HEAT.

Must everything must be used for the purpose intended?
Can you crack nuts with a hammer? 

>out for him and made the first solar panel). The =
>
>problem is, contrary to Mr. Pine=B9s opinion, that =
>
>people do not use residential sunspaces to heat =
>
>their homes.

That's a problem, but it isn't contrary to my opinion.

>They use residential sunspaces to =
>
>reside in and then throw vast amounts of money into =
>
>the space to cool it in the summer and heat it in =
>
>the winter when the sun goes down.

Dumb, isn't it. You seem to be saying "people do stupid things, and
it is hopeless to try to change that, because they will never change."

>The trick is, as =
>
>Mr. Pine has figured out, to isolate the sunspace =
>
>from the living area. =

Good idea :-)

>>Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential >sunspaces, and the prices va=
>ried
>>from $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film >greenhouses cost less th=
>an
>>$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar >heaters.
>
>BULLSHIT! It doesn=B9t even come close. Assertion - =
>
>counterassertion. Prove it. Here on earth. Not just =
>
>in your mind.

Not my job, Dan. I don't need to prove it. People who seem to require these
kinds of physical demonstrations are mostly people who do not understand
physics, so they have no other way of proving to themselves that something
works. Good engineers don't need such demonstrations for simple things like
this. However, I have noticed our plastic glazed Trombe being 122 F inside
when the temp outside was 38 F, and our plastic glazed test box sunspace
being 157 F when the temp outside was 55 F last winter, and my whole 600 ft^2
plastic glazed attic with 2 stone endwalls being 125 F last week.

>...More performance? Use low-iron =
>
>glass to let more light in. More? Insulate the =
>
>sides away from the sun. Even more? Use a metallic =
>
>absorber like aluminum or copper. Better? Use a =
>
>selective surface on the absorber to minimize =
>
>radiant losses. Even better? Use a high capacity =
>
>heat exchange medium like water or glycol to move =
>
>heat away from the sunspace and into the place =
>
>where it=B9s needed as fast as possible. Now you CAN =
>
>get a 70F temp rise above ambient.

Sure. But you can do that a lot cheaper in other ways. I think we need more
performance/price ratio, more cost-effectiveness, not more performance.
But perhaps everyone you know drives drag racer cars...

>Gee, why didn=B9t =
>
>we ignorant and deceitful solar professionals think =
>
>of that?

I'd say you are ignorant and arrogant, but not deceitful. You don't
know enough to be deceitful. And I'm not sure what you mean by "that."

I suppose some solar professionals have not invented more cost-effective
systems because they had their heads in the sand, and others refuse to learn 
solar arithmetic, and others had a few bad products to sell, but they were
selling every one they could make in solar tax credit times, so why invent
new ones?

>Wow, we can design them to be modular and =
>
>mass produce them. We=B9ll call them solar panels and =
>
>sell them to an unsuspecting public. What a great =
>
>scam.

I agree. "Solar panels" are a scam, these days. No good, economically.

>Am I too heavy and serious to gain anything out of =
>
>this thread? Maybe so. 

Probably so, I'd say. And too locked in to the status quo, and rigid thinking,
with an attitude, and too ignorant to go build something better.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1303 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: 15 Oct 1996 07:32:01 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <53vsnh$s41@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <325cd4bf.5217926@news.iol.ie> <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com> <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1303 alt.energy.renewable:18689 alt.architecture.alternative:8530 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9501

Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote:
 
>How about building a house on top of a strawbale pond foundation, inside a
>$1/ft^2 commercial plastic film greenhouse? The ponds might be 2 bales deep,
>about 32" tall, inside a standard 30' wide greenhouse like this: 
>
>     ---                  .
> sun               .             .           
>               .                     .          
>     15'     .                         .     
>           .                             .            [64 feet long]
>          .                               .   
>         .                                 . ----
>        .b      water     b     water      b. 32" 
>     ....b................b................b.................
>        |                30'                |
 
This would collect about 30% more sun in December, where I live, if it
had a frozen reflecting pool outdoors, to the south.

>As to thermal performance, strawbales are about R50, so we have (roughly)
>RC = R50/2000 ft^2x32"/12x2x13x62x64 = 6877 hours, or 287 days or 41 weeks
>or 9.4 months. Not quite passive annual heat storage, but this stucture has
>a lot of glazing, and it could have a ceiling fan blowing some warm air down
>under the length of the floor.

As another alternative, the house might have a floating floor.

Some ferrocement barges, perhaps, or some 8' x 16' platforms, bolted together
and wrapped below with a single folded piece of EPDM rubber that comes up to
the top of their 1' sides, with strawbales for insulation, and no air gap
underneath, and solar heat moving into the water via some some air-water heat
exchangers near the top of the greenhouse. If the strawbales had a woodframe
or ties to hold them together, and some chicken wire and concrete on top, the
"platform" below might just be an EPDM rubber bag. 

The heat exchangers could be some fin-tube pipe with a thermal conductivity
of about 5 Btu/hr-F per linear foot, or some used auto radiators with their
electric fans, which might lose the heat equivalent of 1 gallon of gas per
hour, idling on a hot day at 100K Btu/hr/(200F-100F) = 1,000 Btu/hr-F (?),
or some fan-coil units like Magic-Aire's $150 all-copper 2' x 2' SHW 2347
duct heat exchangers, bolted onto window fans, transferring 45K Btu/hour
between 125 F water and 68 F air, ie about 800 Btu/hr-F at 1400 cfm, with
a 0.1" H20 pressure drop.

How efficient would this be, as a solar collector? The solar heat, about
300 Btu/ft^2/hr, max, wants to leave to the colder outside world via the
glazing thermal resistance, which could be R1/960ft^2 in this case, but it
also wants to flow from warmer air into cooler water via the air-water heat
exchangers, so we have something like this thermal circuit, for a square foot
of glazing, where I live, in December, with an average daytime high of 43 F: 

                ------------               Raw
   43 F--------| 300 Btu/hr |->------------www----->---------Tw, water temp
           |    ------------    |  heat exchanger resistance
           |         R1         |
            ----<---www------------Ta, air temp near ceiling
	     glazing resistance

In a circuit like this, current divides according to the conductances.
So if Raw = 1/3, say, and Tw = 43 F, 200 Btu/hr would go into the water
and 100 Btu/hr would go back out through the glazing. If the water were
warmer or Raw higher, less heat would flow into the water.

If the water temp were 100 F, and Raw = 1/8, eg 1 auto radiator for each
8'x16' section of glazing, we would have

                ------------    a          1/8
   43 F--------| 300 Btu/hr |->------------www----->---------Tw = 80 F
           |    ------------    |  heat exchanger resistance
           |         R1         |
            ----<---www------------Ta, air temp near ceiling
	     glazing resistance

So 300 Btu/hr go into point a, of which (Ta-100)/(1/8) flow into the water,
and (Ta-43)/1 flow into the air. So 300 = 8(Ta-100) + Ta - 43, or 
257 = 8 Ta - 800, or Ta = 1057/8 = 132 F, and about (132-100)/(1/8) = 256
Btu/hr flow into the water, so the efficiency is 256/300 = 85%. Using 2 layers
of plastic would reduce the sun by 10% or so, but allow conventional air
inflation of poly film pillows to reduce plastic wind fatigue. It would raise
the efficiency, but double the glazing cost, to 10 cents per square foot.

Nick



From sunone@pathcom.com Wed Oct 16 22:38:58 EDT 1996
Article: 1304 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:28:09 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <53ufmo$gso@news.pathcom.com>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53me8c$q7l@news.pathcom.com> <53o4lj$b0u@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53rjlh$f3p@earth.alpha.net> <53t90v$ft1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts15l5.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1304 alt.energy.renewable:18690 alt.architecture.alternative:8531 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9502

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Ron Bean <rbean@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>>
>>>How about a Monolithic Dome, half full of water, with a houseboat inside? :-)
>>
>>Wouldn't it get kind of humid in there?

>Sure, without a vapor barrier.

>>I'd skip the dome and the straw bales and just put a pole building over it.

>Sounds cool.

>>(Just make sure the head has a holding tank...)

>Not necessarily. Perhaps just a stack vent, and a macerator/chlorinator,
>with the chlorinator turned off. Wastewater treatment with large warm
>reservoirs can be very effective.

>Nick

Hey! Don't forget anaerobic fermentation makes methane! You could tap
the methane to burn in a heater on those sunless days, or for cooking.

Andrew McKegney



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:38:59 EDT 1996
Article: 1305 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: 15 Oct 1996 14:41:40 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <540lt4$27j@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <536i4d$3ol@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <53rjlh$f3p@earth.alpha.net> <53t90v$ft1@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <53ufmo$gso@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1305 alt.energy.renewable:18700 alt.architecture.alternative:8540 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9506

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>>Ron Bean <rbean@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>>>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>>>
>>>(Just make sure the head has a holding tank...)
>
>>Not necessarily. Perhaps just a stack vent, and a macerator/chlorinator,
>>with the chlorinator turned off. Wastewater treatment with large warm
>>reservoirs can be very effective.
>
>Hey! Don't forget anaerobic fermentation makes methane! You could tap
>the methane to burn in a heater on those sunless days, or for cooking.

Good idea in principle. You will probably find the numbers show enough
methane for cooking, given, say, a family of 4, and not enough for heating
without the sun, except for a terrifically superinsulated house, but perhaps
enough for cloudy day heating. 

Nick



From Mlobrien@btinternet.com Wed Oct 16 22:39:00 EDT 1996
Article: 1306 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!news.cid.sco.com!btinternet!usenet
From: "Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 15 Oct 1996 07:21:21 GMT
Organization: BT Internet
Lines: 233
Message-ID: <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host-73-35-237.btinternet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1306 alt.architecture.alternative:8542 alt.energy.renewable:18701 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9507

	Daniel, I'd say think again what science is and what makes a scientist. I
think you're being insulting insinuating that Nick is seriously conspiring
to destroy your industry or that there are people in your industry with out
the mind to evaluate Nicks thoughts on there own. Many people like myself
come to these newsgroups not just for some serious discussion but also for
a chance to talk about ideas at leasure in the casual hope that there may
be some interesting spin offs. I don't see how your attitude helps anyone,
but then again I say "who the hell am I" ?
-- 
Marc O'Brien
Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

daniel@smtp1.laser.net wrote in article <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net>...
"Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com> wrote:

>        Andrew my impression is that Nick is a >free minded creator with
the
>characteristic light hearted attitude. You might >be too heavy and serious
>to gain anything out of this thread. Seems to me >we have the business man
>rediculing the scientist, type of thing. I'm not >saying you aren't a
>scientist, you're just from another necessary >nitch in the big picture
that
>won't bare much fruit from interaction from Nicks >kind where others would
>harvest huge spin-offs. But then who the hell am I >?
>-- 
>Marc O'Brien
>Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

I come into this thread late but I¹m sure I haven¹t 
missed a thing. I too am a solar professional. I 
too have wasted vast amounts of time trying to give 
a practical perspective to Mr. Pine¹s posts. And I 
too have been personally attacked and had my 
intelligence and integrity challenged by Mr. Pine 
for my trouble.

Nick a free minded creator? Has he created thing 
one? What I see is a huge amount of time spent 
attempting to destroy, denigrate, demean and 
demonize what¹s left of the solar profession. A 
scientist? I was taught that a scientist published 
his or her hypotheses as a starting point for an in 
depth report on the set up and progress and 
conclusions of a replicable, controlled experiment. 
Maybe I¹m wrong, but I can¹t see Edison or Bell or 
Fulton or the Wright brothers spending their R and 
D time railing against the existing structure of 
the lighting, communication or transportation 
industries. They simply built a better product. A 
theorist? Yes. A postulator? You bet. A 
mathematician? Maybe. A scientist? NOT!

I recognize how attractive Mr. Pine¹s ideas are. If 
someone used three pages of mathematical proofs to 
show me how I could have an industrial 
refrigeration device at one tenth the cost of a 
³conventional² one, I¹d want to believe. If you, as 
the industry professional, saw a flaw in the 
cardboard compressor design, you would want 
potential consumers to know about the problem 
before your industry suffered from the indictment. 
Mr. Pine fancies himself a sailor. Can a 
mathematician ³prove² that his boat will go twice 
as fast if he drilled half of the weight of the 
hull away? Have you ever seen the mathematical 
proof that 1=0? Would he accept the argument at 
face value and start drilling? Would he question 
the integrity of those scam artists that sold him 
this overweight and overpriced boat?

Am I afraid of a change in the status quo? Of 
innovation? Of a new minimum cost, effective, 
efficient technology that will shake up the 
industry? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Nothing would be better! 
Shake up my industry? Hell, revolutionize it. I 
don¹t manufacture any of these products. I don¹t 
carry a vast inventory. I simply install and 
maintain them. If they don¹t work, the customer has 
them yanked and I lose a customer. I have customers 
ready, willing and able to buy and install solar 
now. With exponentially more waiting in the wings 
for the price to come down and the efficiency to go 
up. I¹m the first in line to profit from an 
improvement. My customer base would explode.  What 
exactly is my motivation for trying to squelch a 
new and innovative solar technology? Am I afraid of 
homebrewed solar? Of course not. Well, maybe so, if 
it¹s poorly designed or installed. Who are they 
going to call when they need a part? Who are their 
neighbors going to call when they see a solar 
project that works? Conversely, who are they going 
to blame when the device doesn¹t work up to 
expectations? Or when it leaks and ruins their 
ceiling? I have scores of customers who built their 
own and regularly call me for parts or just advise. 
Many of these customers built their own ten years 
ago and now, due to health or just the 
complications of their lives call me to do the 
things that they used to do. What I am afraid of is 
another half-baked, poorly thought out concept that 
promises the moon and can¹t deliver, resulting in 
dissatisfied customers.

Case in point. Mr. Pine has, for more than a year, 
repeatedly asserted that with no more than plastic 
sheeting, plastic shade cloth and a 50 watt blower 
he can impart 120F into a water storage device when 
ambient air temp is 50F or below. This to me, and 
to anyone who works with solar daily, is like a 
mathematical proof that pigs can fly. If this were 
as evident to the casual reader of this group as it 
is to me, I¹d simply dismiss it as a recurring bad 
joke. But its not. This is extremely attractive. We 
all want to believe it. We all want to believe that 
there is a magical pill that we can put in our gas 
tanks and double our gas milage. OK, so someone 
posts the mathematical proof that pigs can fly. Is 
it now incumbent upon me to prove otherwise (Lord, 
how I¹ve tried. Graciously accepting criticism is 
not one of Mr. Pine¹s strong suits)? Is this really 
how a scientist operates? Although this is exactly 
what he has been fishing for, someone please do Mr. 
Pine¹s lab work for him. Please build it for him, 
ship it to him and set it up. Put Mr. Pine inside 
of it with a thermometer and instruct him not come 
out until the storage hits 120F. That will keep him 
busy until July.

Mr. Pine implicates the entirety of an industry 
with the statement,
>There is this very large and successful greenhouse
>industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the >solar heating industry.
Why?

>If commercial growers had to use residential
>sunspaces, they would be out of business in a >year. I think the fact that
>people heat houses with residential sunspaces is >economically crippling
>the solar house heating industry, don't you?²

If you can believe that the solar industries are 
populated by nothing but dim-witted crooks who 
drive by these things every day and can¹t put two 
and two together, the people who design, build, 
supply and work in and around greenhouses must be 
pretty slow too.

Look beyond the knee jerk reaction, though not too 
far beyond. Commercial greenhouses are FOR GROWING 
PLANTS, NOT FOR MAKING HEAT. Green plants require 
certain minimum light levels to survive and much 
more to thrive. They are used to house tropical 
plants, those that require minimum 40F or die, or 
to get up to a one month jump on the growing season 
for native species. This is the closest compromise 
available to provide light levels AND a controlled 
environment for their cash crops. Ask any grower of 
tropicals in a temperate climate what his highest 
yearly expense is. Far and away the answer is fuel 
to heat the space. Why can¹t you buy vine ripe 
tomatoes in January? Because it¹s not economically 
feasible to heat the greenhouse at night to keep 
them alive. Commercial growers can afford to buy 
fuel or replace their structures every 2 years 
because you give them money when you buy their 
bushes. Yes, temps in the greenhouse go up when the 
sun shines in (some stupid yet highly dishonest 
solar professional heard a scientist use the term 
³greenhouse effect,² had the scientist spell it all 
out for him and made the first solar panel). The 
problem is, contrary to Mr. Pine¹s opinion, that 
people do not use residential sunspaces to heat 
their homes. They use residential sunspaces to 
reside in and then throw vast amounts of money into 
the space to cool it in the summer and heat it in 
the winter when the sun goes down. The trick is, as 
Mr. Pine has figured out, to isolate the sunspace 
>from  the living area. 

He further blathers, 
>Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential >sunspaces, and the prices
varied
>from $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film >greenhouses cost less
than
>$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar >heaters.

BULLSHIT! It doesn¹t even come close. Assertion - 
counterassertion. Prove it. Here on earth. Not just 
in your mind.

Is this a useless idea? Of course not, it¹s a great 
idea. It¹s been around for many, many years in 
many, many forms. Do you want to make it better? 
Use glass so you don¹t have to replace the plastic 
every 2 or 3 years. More performance? Use low-iron 
glass to let more light in. More? Insulate the 
sides away from the sun. Even more? Use a metallic 
absorber like aluminum or copper. Better? Use a 
selective surface on the absorber to minimize 
radiant losses. Even better? Use a high capacity 
heat exchange medium like water or glycol to move 
heat away from the sunspace and into the place 
where it¹s needed as fast as possible. Now you CAN 
get a 70F temp rise above ambient. Gee, why didn¹t 
we ignorant and deceitful solar professionals think 
of that? Wow, we can design them to be modular and 
mass produce them. We¹ll call them solar panels and 
sell them to an unsuspecting public. What a great 
scam.

It¹s a fine idea. But, greatly more limited than 
Mr. Pine¹s arithmetic shows. Someone who has no 
hidden agendas please do Mr. Pine¹s lab work for 
him so he can quantify his work. While your at it, 
build him an R10 pool cover that people will use. 
You¹ll both become millionaires and I will ride 
your coattails and be able to send my kids to 
college so they can further study the insights and 
prophecies of King Nick.

I can¹t speak for Mr. McKegney, and I¹ve missed 
most of this thread, but I¹ve seen nothing he has 
said that I would disagree with. 

Am I too heavy and serious to gain anything out of 
this thread? Maybe so. I get that way when poorly 
informed, self important, prepossessed, pocket 
protector Bozos attempt to take food from my 
family. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Dan

----------



From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Wed Oct 16 22:39:02 EDT 1996
Article: 1307 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!garlic.com!news.vbc.net!news.mira.net.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:35:14 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1307 alt.energy.renewable:18704 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9509

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
>McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
>climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
>do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
>skiing.

>I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
>small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water, 
>circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
>exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof 
>temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
>solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
>years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
>off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
>sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
>always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
>enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
>pool in late May and close it in early September.


Befoe this topic dies - can you tell me how putting the pipes in
parallel "keeps the head loss low"?
I am thinking of doing this deal, and I need to know the best way to
get the water from my 3" pool pipes up onto the roof which is some
distance away (say 25 feet horizontal ) and up to the roof (say 15-20
feet above the filter pump).
There will be a fair resistance (??) as the pipe narrows to the black
poly pipe diameter - will my filter pump (1.5hp) handle the pressure
load from the height as well as the resistance from the smaller tube ?
What "valves" need to be put in this system?



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:39:03 EDT 1996
Article: 1309 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Supporting loads (was Re: 2X4 joists)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 03:08:13 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <326308E3.4646@mail.cwo.com> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1309 alt.home.repair:36504 alt.architecture.alternative:8551 alt.energy.renewable:18715 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9514

Paul Valentine <paul@gizard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 
>>Why do people want to square the length in bending moment calculations?
 
>The length is squared in the bending moment formula if the load is
>input in load per unit length along the beam. If the total load on the
>beam is used then the length is not squared.

Makes sense to me.

Now, I wonder how much weight a 12' beam like this will hold up?

     www s www s www
 --> www s www s www  <--3 1/2" drywall screws
     www s www s www
     www s www s www
 --> www s www s www  <--
     www s www s www
               ^  ^
               |  | __ 2x4
               |__ 1/16" steel, or perhaps a U-shaped piece of chicken wire,   
                                hardware cloth, stucco mesh, etc...

Harry Parker's _Simplified Design of Structural Timber_, 2nd edition,
gives this procedure on pages 233-235:

1. Assume fs = 20K psi for the steel and fw = 1200 psi for the wood.
2. Find the section modulus of the wood Sw = bh^2/6 = 9.1875 in^3.
3. Find the section modulus of the steel Ss = 0.255 in^3.
4. Find the distributed load that the wood will carry.
   M = WL/8 = 18 in-lb = fwSw, so W = 413 lb. 
5. Find the distributed load that the steel will carry.
   M = WL/8 = 18 in-lb = fsSs, so W = 284 lb. 
6. Add the 2 loads to find the 697 lb max load the flitched beam will carry.
   
Perhaps 2 such collar beams could hold up 2 55 gallon drums full of water,
with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and some glazing
to the south, and insulation overhead, and some foil underneath, using a
few stud cavities for the supply airpath, to make a gravity-feed solar
water heater like this:
                                
                      ........                        .
                      drums                     . drum drum .
polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .
film sunspace --> . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .
	         .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    .
                .   g <-- single glazing   .    .           .    .
            .....................      ..............................

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:39:04 EDT 1996
Article: 1310 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Insulating underground copper pipe
Date: 16 Oct 1996 03:46:22 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5423se$8f9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <541r4r$lr1$2@kronos.crosslink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1310 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9515

Howard Walker <mail.crosslink.net> wrote:

>By necessity, I am forced to mount my 5 panel array approximately 60 feet 
>from my house.

Have you considered moving your house? :-)

>In one of Ted Lucas' books, a fellow in Pa. did that but utilized 12" 
>diameter PVC with spacers to hold the pipe in place and then had insulating 
>foam injected inside.  He claimed an R value of 30.

Hmmm. I wonder how much that cost.

>Well, 12" is prohibitively expensive.  I have priced 10" and for around $250, 
>I can make the run....anyone have some better input to the situation???

You might consider vermiculite, dry earth, packing peanuts or perhaps fine-
grained clay soil, if you can keep it dry, which the warm pipe might do, if
the water table is never above it. You might take a look at the 1993 ASHRAE
HOF, Fig 6 on page 22.13, "Trends of apparent thermal conductivity of moist
soils," which shows most soils approaching 3 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F, below 3% 
moisture. It looks like fine grained clay soil extrapolates to 0 conductivity
at 0% moisture, but there's an odd plateau at 4.5 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F. Maybe
that's conduction, which would flow in any direction, vs the main (upward)
heatflow in moist soil, when moisture below evaporates and recondenses above.

How about lining a trench with 6 mil poly film, putting a foot of soil in it, 
then the pipe, then another foot of soil, and then folding the poly film over
the top? Hmmm. That might make 3/12 Btu/h-ft^2-F, ie R4... Not too hot.

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:39:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1311 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: air-liquid solar water heaters
Date: 16 Oct 1996 08:53:52 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1311 alt.architecture.alternative:8552 alt.energy.renewable:18716 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9516

daniel@laser.net wrote:

>>The trick is, as =
>>
>>Mr. Pine has figured out, to isolate the sunspace =
>>
>>from the living area. =
>
>Good idea :-)

And put our bare collectors in the sunspace, eg Big Fins, with an ordinary
water heater upstairs that seldom turns on, heated by natural warm water
convection, with no collector glazing nor insulation nor pumps nor controllers
nor antifreeze nor heat exchangers if possible, just a well-managed sunspace
that never freezes.

Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the
peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and
some glazing to the south, and insulation overhead, and some foil underneath, 
using a few stud cavities for the supply airpath, to make a gravity-feed
solar water heater like this:
                                
                      ........                        .               ---
                      drums                     . drum drum .
polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .---
film sunspace --> . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .    11'
                 .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8'
   pond         .   g <-- single glazing   .    .           .    .
            .....................      ...................................
                                           |          12'        |

During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of
some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective
insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6"
air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of
polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. There might be a diagonal
layer of oxidized stucco mesh in the air heater, sloped from north to south.

Something like this would be nice for a rustic cabin, as a part of solar
heating our 10'x12' shed. The sunspace frame has curved 1x3 spaced beams
on 4' centers (I just snapped 4 1x3s in bending them to less than an 8'
radius) and the 4x8x8' solar closet might be in the sunspace itself, which
leaves a 4x8' patch of sunspace wall. It would be nice to have a warmwater 
hose in the sunspace, for showers. At some point, the "solar closet" might
become an EPDM-lined strawbale hot tub, as well, with a rigid automatically
movable reflective and insulating cover.

The water supply might be a 16x24' pond to the south, as well as the 8x12'
sunspace and 10x12' roof and 12x16 adjacent greenhouse area, about 800 ft^2
of rain catchment area, which should provide 64 gallons of water a day, where
I live, for an average water consumption of 8 gallons per hour over an 8 hour
day. Enough water for 16 showers with 4 minutes of water usage at 2 gpm.

Heating the water from 65 F to 105 F takes about (105-65)64x8 = 20K Btu/day,
which could come from the 4x8' air heater, and raising it from 32 F to 65 F
takes about (65-32)64x8 = 16K Btu/day. Could this be done with a 4" x 10'
tempering pipe hanging inside the cabin, near the ceiling? It would hold 
about 56 pounds of water, with a surface area of about 10.5 ft^2, and the
main thermal resistance might be a (US) R2/3 still air film on the outside,
which would make RC = 0.67/10.5x56 = 3.5 hours. Hmmm. We need something
closer to a half hour to keep up with the average water usage.

Add some sort of fins and a small fan and a 6" concentric pipe to double the
first pipe area and reduce the R-value to about 0.2, by moving air past the
pipe at 8 mph? With a half-hour time constant, 7 gallons of water in a 70 F
room would warm up to 70-(70-32)exp(-1/0.5) = 65 F in an hour. Or should we
put the pipe outside, near the peak of the warmer sunspace, with some
insulation above it? 

Or hang a dark drum in the sunspace, and let it lose heat all night? A 55
gallon drum has about 25 ft^2 of area, so RC = 2/3/25x55x8 = 12 hours. Suppose
we surround it with insulation on the back, and R1 glazing on the front. Most
of the heat loss will be through the glazing, and on an average day, with some
sun, if the drum starts out at 32 F, and the sunspace is 80 F for 6 hours,
the water temp at the end of the day would be 80-(80-32)exp(-6/12) = 51 F.
Adding 12ft^2x0.9x0.9x1000 Btu/ft^2/dayx1.3reflective gain = 13K Btu of direct
sun to this might raise the water temp another 13K/450 lb = 28 F to 79 F.
Looks like the right ball park.

Jade Mountain's $59 4 gpm 12V 7A #WP100 Amazon submersible pump might run
for 2 minutes every hour, with a float switch or 2 in one of the drums.

Nick



From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:39:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1312 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:59:37 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3264CE28.4076@patriot.net>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-15.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1312 alt.architecture.alternative:8553 alt.energy.renewable:18720 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9518

Marc O'Brien wrote:
> 
>         Daniel, I'd say think again what science is and what makes a scientist. I
> think you're being insulting insinuating that Nick is seriously conspiring
> to destroy your industry or that there are people in your industry with out
> the mind to evaluate Nicks thoughts on there own. Many people like myself
> come to these newsgroups not just for some serious discussion but also for
> a chance to talk about ideas at leasure in the casual hope that there may
> be some interesting spin offs. I don't see how your attitude helps anyone,
> but then again I say "who the hell am I" ?
> --
> Marc O'Brien
> Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

Perhaps you've only seen some of Nick's posts.  In many posts in the
past, Nick has pushed his variations of another's effective solar
solutions as the only real way to implement solar energy capture and
distribution.  He has called those who do not discard all existing solar
technology for his 'criminals', 'stupid', 'crooks', etc.  We have gotten
tired of being insulted by someone who was initially orders of magnitude
off in his calculations.  Now he is slowly getting closer, and may be
within a 75% margin of error.
We believe it is unethical for someone to denigrate the accomplishments
of all others while not even having a functioning 'solar closet' to hold
up as proof.

I am an active solar proponent; just visit my web-site.  I've also made
my own homegrown solar components and encourage everyone to try it. 
Just don't be surprised if you are disappointed with the results of a
Nick Pine design.

Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From wstewart@patriot.net Wed Oct 16 22:39:07 EDT 1996
Article: 1313 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:45:04 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <3264CAC0.2382@patriot.net>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <53uq4v$nbv@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-15.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1313 alt.architecture.alternative:8554 alt.energy.renewable:18721 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9519

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> <daniel@laser.net> wrote:
> 
> >Nick a free minded creator? Has he created thing one?
> 
> Sure. For instance, a house in PA that used only 25 gallons of oil last winter
> for heat,

This was not your original idea, but that of Norman Saunders.

> a 7x11' Trombe wall,

Again, not an original idea on your part.  You also disparage Trombe
walls.

> the first
> Intelligen cogen installation in Pennsylvania, 

A creation of yours?  Or simply an installation?

> a 2000 ft^2 greenhouse that
> used $1500 of propane heat last winter, vs. $8,000 the winter before, 

Perhaps your best job yet.  Are you the first to do this?

>a
> 2x4x8' test box that sat on a roof last winter, 

And as I understand, you attempted to make it R-20, but it only performs
as if it were R-5...

A test box is not much of a 'creation' to blow your horn on.

> a bubblewall test box,

Ditto.

 and
> my favorite: a simple and general scheme to design an inexpensive 100% solar
> heated house that makes inexpensive solar hot water too, using some arithmetic
> and NREL solar data, described in a paper physics prof Paul Bashus and I gave
> at the World Renewable Energy Congress last June, sponsored by UNESCO, DOE,
> NREL, The British Council, etc, and just published in the proceedings by
> Pergamon Press. You can see it at http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html.
> It will also be published soon in The Journal of Renewable Energy.

This is an idea, not a creation.  Many at DOE and NREL would be
surprised by your suggestion of their tacit approval of your paper.

> This winter I'm working on a 20x32' air heater for another local building,
> and a 12x22' 100% solar heated building retrofit. I finished the sunspace
> frame for that today, and I'll be doing some insulation tomorrow.

Then log all of the energy inputs, outside temps, inside temps, etc, and
let us know the results in the spring.

> >A scientist? [blah blah blah]
> 
> No, an engineer. We have enough solar scientists.

An electrical engineer. You tend to denigrate thermodynamics, the
fundamental solar thermal skill.
 
> >Case in point. Mr. Pine has, for more than a year, =
> >repeatedly asserted that with no more than plastic =
> >sheeting, plastic shade cloth and a 50 watt blower =
> >he can impart 120F into a water storage device when =
> >ambient air temp is 50F or below.
> 
> Doesn't take all that. Just some plastic. Of course you have to make sure
> the planets are all lined up correctly, etc :-) Let's try a little thought
> experiment, Dan. Direct sun of 300 Btu/ft^2/hr is shining into a insulated box
> through some R1 glazing, and the temperature outside is 30 F. Assume all the
> heat is lost back out the glazing. What is the temperature inside the box?
> (Hint: 330 F.)

This is another example of misapplied arithmetic; there are no
assumptions about solar incidence angle, insulation R values, time
necessary to reach this 'steady state' condition, infiltration losts,
etc.

> And if you attach another insulated box to the back of the first, with some
> thermal mass inside, and blow some hot air from the first box to the second
> when the sun is shining, and it prevent air from flowing at night, what is
> the temperature inside the second box? (Hint: 330 F.)

Insulation losses in the second box would result in a lower temperature.
Kids don't try this at home...

The reader is encouraged to employ texts that contain correct
application of engineering data, as opposed to relying on Nick's
posts.   Imagine if your brain surgeon was a podiatrist that had skimmed
through a pictorial on brain surgery.  Would you be willing to go under
the knife?

Cheers,

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

"Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post (or one posting trolls) to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts or logic."    - bashford@psnw.com


From redrok@pclink.com Wed Oct 16 22:39:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1314 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Insulating underground copper pipe
Message-ID: <3264EFCB.5EA9@pclink.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:23:07 -0700
References: <541r4r$lr1$2@kronos.crosslink.net> <5423se$8f9@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 59
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1314 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9521

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Howard Walker <mail.crosslink.net> wrote:
> 
> >By necessity, I am forced to mount my 5 panel array approximately 60 feet
> >from my house.
> 
> Have you considered moving your house? :-)
> 
> >In one of Ted Lucas' books, a fellow in Pa. did that but utilized 12"
> >diameter PVC with spacers to hold the pipe in place and then had insulating
> >foam injected inside.  He claimed an R value of 30.
> 
> Hmmm. I wonder how much that cost.
> 
> >Well, 12" is prohibitively expensive.  I have priced 10" and for around $250,
> >I can make the run....anyone have some better input to the situation???
> 
> You might consider vermiculite, dry earth, packing peanuts or perhaps fine-
> grained clay soil, if you can keep it dry, which the warm pipe might do, if
> the water table is never above it. You might take a look at the 1993 ASHRAE
> HOF, Fig 6 on page 22.13, "Trends of apparent thermal conductivity of moist
> soils," which shows most soils approaching 3 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F, below 3%
> moisture. It looks like fine grained clay soil extrapolates to 0 conductivity
> at 0% moisture, but there's an odd plateau at 4.5 Btu-in/h-ft^2-F. Maybe
> that's conduction, which would flow in any direction, vs the main (upward)
> heatflow in moist soil, when moisture below evaporates and recondenses above.
> 
> How about lining a trench with 6 mil poly film, putting a foot of soil in it,
> then the pipe, then another foot of soil, and then folding the poly film over
> the top? Hmmm. That might make 3/12 Btu/h-ft^2-F, ie R4... Not too hot.
> 
> Nick

Hi Nick;

Why not fill the trench and poly film with the vermiculite or packing peanuts.
This will have considerably more R value and still be realy cheap.
You might want to put a cover plate of 2" styrofoam board over the packaged
insulation and then backfill. The foam board is stiffer so you will still be
able to walk over it.

-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever
Ignorance can be Fixed

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From greg.marion@sdrc.com Wed Oct 16 22:39:09 EDT 1996
Article: 1315 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!sdrc.com!usenet
From: Greg Marion <greg.marion@sdrc.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Supporting loads (was Re: 2X4 joists)
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:50:51 -0400
Organization: SDRC-NAO Customer Services
Lines: 16
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3264DA2B.794B@sdrc.com>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <326308E3.4646@mail.cwo.com> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sgics36.sdrc.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1315 alt.home.repair:36534 alt.architecture.alternative:8556 alt.energy.renewable:18722 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9523

This is a great thread! 

BTW - Their is a span calculator at http://www.btw.com/himprove.htm

Now - what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double
2x8x12 support using double 2x4 criples on both sides? Any
pointers? 

Thanks!

-- 
==================================================================

Greg Marion                                                   SDRC
SDRC North American Customer Services
greg.marion@sdrc.com


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 16 22:39:10 EDT 1996
Article: 1316 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Supporting loads (was Re: 2X4 joists)
Date: 16 Oct 1996 10:47:43 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 16
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <542sif$bn2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3264DA2B.794B@sdrc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1316 alt.home.repair:36538 alt.energy.renewable:18724 alt.architecture.alternative:8557 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9525

Greg Marion  <greg.marion@sdrc.com> wrote:

>This is a great thread! 

It does seem like fun.

>Now - what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2x8x12
>support using double 2x4 criples on both sides? 

I dunno. What's a cripple? I've decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full
of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12' 2x6 with 2 12' 2x4s
and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2x6 at the bottom, made
>from  2 10' pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up?

Nick



From hdb@gate.net Thu Oct 24 20:28:52 EDT 1996
Article: 1317 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!news
From: Henry Bloom <hdb@gate.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Some WWW sites relating to renewable energy
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:06:23 -0400
Organization: CyberGate, Inc.
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <3265868F.6725@gate.net>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: hdb@gate.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: dfbfl6-6.gate.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1317 alt.architecture.alternative:8558 alt.energy.renewable:18725 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9526

The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US
government department of energy site.) 

http://www.nrel.gov/  
http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   
http://www.realgoods.com/   
http://www.bergey.com/index.html 
http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html
http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html 
http://www.gridwise.com/ 
http://www.webpage.com/wpt/  
http://solstice.crest.org/


From hank@netcom.com Thu Oct 24 20:28:53 EDT 1996
Article: 1318 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!hank
From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: air-liquid solar water heaters
Message-ID: <hankDzDtyD.Lz1@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:56:37 GMT
Lines: 22
Sender: hank@netcom17.netcom.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1318 alt.architecture.alternative:8560 alt.energy.renewable:18728 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9527

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

 ...
>Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the
>peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and
 ...
>During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of
>some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective
>insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6"
>air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of
>polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. There might be a diagonal


    How do you handle 
    -- condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you
       don't get mold growing in the system?
    -- fire blocks, so you don't get a fire going up the stud space 
       (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)
       (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot)

The ideas are attractive, but I don't see any built in ways to handle
either air quality/mold/condensation or fire safety considerations in them.


From daniel@laser.net Thu Oct 24 20:28:54 EDT 1996
Article: 1319 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.LASER.NET!usenet
From: daniel@smtp1.laser.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:13:29 -0400
Organization: LaserNet
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <32655E09.2E30@smtp1.laser.net>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
Reply-To: daniel@laser.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ffx33.laser.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1319 alt.architecture.alternative:8561 alt.energy.renewable:18729 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9529

Marc O'Brien wrote:
> 
>         Daniel, I'd say think again what science is and what makes a scientist. I
> think you're being insulting insinuating that Nick is seriously conspiring
> to destroy your industry or that there are people in your industry with out
> the mind to evaluate Nicks thoughts on there own. Many people like myself
> come to these newsgroups not just for some serious discussion but also for
> a chance to talk about ideas at leasure in the casual hope that there may
> be some interesting spin offs. I don't see how your attitude helps anyone,
> but then again I say "who the hell am I" ?
> --
> Marc O'Brien
> Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

Marc

Its not the people within my industry that Im 
concerned with. Its the casual, leisurely reader 
like you that may be swayed by the loudest voice. 
Speculation with no practical back up is no more 
than speculation.

People in my industry have already done the lab 
work and know what the result is. Thats why we are 
not pasting plastic greenhouses around the 
neighborhood.

Youre right I have a bad attitude when I talk to Mr 
Pine. But I feel better now.

Dan


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:28:55 EDT 1996
Article: 1320 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: air-liquid solar water heaters
Date: 17 Oct 1996 10:33:31 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <545g3r$nfo@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <hankDzDtyD.Lz1@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1320 alt.architecture.alternative:8565 alt.energy.renewable:18732 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9533

Hank Roberts <hank@netcom.com> wrote:
>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> ...
>>Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the
>>peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and
> ...
>>During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of
>>some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective
>>insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6"
>>air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of
>>polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.
>
>    How do you handle 
>    -- condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you
>       don't get mold growing in the system?

Where would the condensation occur, exactly? The whole building would leak
enough air to eliminate moisture buildup, and the sunspace would have a vapor
barrier on the floor, and the drums would almost always be warmer than the
ambient air. They might have a shallow liner underneath, in case one of them
leaked, or a little condensation formed. Condensation might be a larger
problem in the preheater, if any, ie the tempering tank/heat exchanger that
raises the water temp from 32 F to 70 F or so, but that might live in the
sunspace.

>    -- fire blocks, so you don't get a fire going up the stud space 
>       (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)

Perhaps stud spaces are used in this way now as HVAC ducts.

I'm not impressed with some parts of the code, altho I like the part in the
front that says you can do whatever you want, notwithstanding the following
text, if the building inspector approves. Sprinklers? Dampers with fusible
links, as in envelope houses? Halon? Some old fashioned carcinogenic-if-used-
but-perhaps-less-harmful-than-immolation carbon tetrachloride glass bulbs
near the top of the stud cavities? A good and reliable fire detection and
extinguishing system? Seems like there are lots of solutions, including just
insulating the stud cavities in the normal way, and making the air heater on
the outside of the wall a little thicker.

>       (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot)

I think it's been through some big city flame spread tests OK.

>                      ........                        .               ---
>                      drums                     . drum drum .
>polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .---
>film sunspace --> . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .    11'
>                 .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8'
>   pond         .   g <-- single glazing   .    .           .    .
>            .....................      ...................................
>                                           |          12'        |
 
>During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside
>of the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom, and up through a
>4" air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer
>of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.
 
This solar closet may end up in the ceiling. I ended up making all the collar
beams super-strong yesterday, and realized 6 drums will fit in the ceiling,
(few earthquakes here.) This could be enough for a combined space and water 
heating system, with no separate solar closet in the sunspace. Like the attic
warmstores of Norman Saunders, except it would have an air heater built into
the back wall of the sunspace, to make a higher temp, and the warm sunspace
air, ie the "waste heat" from that air heater glazing, would heat the cabin
on an average December day, with some sun. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:28:56 EDT 1996
Article: 1321 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: sizing a sunspace and solar closet to match a house
Date: 17 Oct 1996 11:08:51 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <545i63$npe@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: a South Carolina example
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1321 alt.energy.renewable:18733 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9535 alt.architecture.alternative:8567

>Here are some numbers from the manual for Columbia, SC:

              Dec  Jan     Dec  Jan
>Columbia     46.9 43.8 F  1160 1140 Btu/ft^2/day.

>I'm not clear on what the BTU per square foot figures mean and how it
>compares to say US average etc. I'm assuming that this is just a measurement
>for the energy of the sun that is striking the surface during the time period
>measured.

Yes, and that varies depending on the orientation of the surface. These
averages are for a south-facing wall, because the sun arrives at an angle
closer to horizontal than vertical in the middle of winter (elevation at noon
on 12/21 = 90-23.5-lat, in degrees.)

A Btu is about the same as the energy in a kitchen match; 1 Btu can heat 1
pound of water 1 degree F, and when the water cools 1 F, it gives back 1 Btu.

              air temp     amount of sun
              Dec  Jan     Dec  Jan
>Columbia     46.9 43.8    1160 1140 Btu/ft^2/day.

January looks like the more challenging month for solar heating here, since
it has less sun and it's cooler than December. You have 1140/(70-43.8)
= 43.5 Btu/degree-day in January. Phila has 26.6. It's 50 in some places
in New Mexico and Texas, eg Abilene, where certain people REALLY SHOULD
solar heat their houses. Places in NY and Canada have 12. Barrow, Alaska
has an average daily temperature of -13.4 F in Jan, with 0 Btu/ft^2/day
of sun, making this index 0. (The average outdoor temp in July in Barrow 
is 39.3 F.) The higher this number, the easier it is to solar heat a house.

>How we harness that energy efficiently is another matter! Any ideas.

Sure, a sunspace and solar closet! See our solar closet paper at:
http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html

>I'd appreciate your feedback, and advice on the above, and would like to know
>more about your solar closet and sunspace house.

Check out our web paper: your house might have some sort of attached but
thermally isolated low-thermal-mass sunspace, without a lot of bricks, etc
inside it, nor many water-vapor-producing plants, with warm air flowing from
the sunspace into the house on an average winter day, and a $100 2 watt
Honeywell motorized damper (or a $12 window fan with a $15 thermostat) that
stops the airflow at night and lets the sunspace get cold while the house
stays warm. Airflow also stops if the house gets too warm. Meanwhile, there's
a small room in the house completely surrounded by insulation, with some
sealed containers of water inside, which provides warm air for the house on
a cloudy day when the sunspace is cool, and can also easily provide close
to 100% solar hot water, with some fin tube near the ceiling and an ordinary
water heater upstairs, which seldom turns on, like a Big Fin system in a
sunspace, but working 24 hours a day.

Here are some basic SS/SC sizing steps for 100% solar house heating:

1. Look up the local average temp and amount of sun that falls on a south
wall, in the worst-case solar heating month, 43.8 F and 1140 Btu/ft^2/day.

2. Find out how much heat the house needs on that average day. Say it's
32x32x16' tall, with average R20 walls (including the windows, making the
R20 average harder to achieve) The walls would have a thermal conductivity
of 2,000 ft^2/R20 = 100 and the ceiling might have 1000 ft^2/R20 = 50, for
a total of 150. So on an average day, the house might need 24 hr(70-43.8)150
= 94K Btu. About the same as the energy in a gallon of oil, inefficiently
burned. Call this 100K Btu/day, in round numbers.

3. Find how much south glazing a low-thermal-mass sunspace needs, to supply
That heat on an average day. Suppose 1 square foot of R1 single pane glazing
gains 1140 Btu/day, and loses 6hr(70-43.8) = 157 Btu, for a net gain of 
982 Btu/ft^2/day. Call this 1000. Then we need 100K/1000 = 100 ft^2 of
sunspace glazing, if the sunspace is shallow, or a bit more if deeper, with
larger endwall losses. This "sunspace" could be a $5000 clear redwood and
glass structure, 12' wide x 8' deep x 16' tall, or a $500 commercial plastic
film greenhouse, 12' wide x 8' deep x 16' tall, with curved galvanized pipes
leaning up against the south side of the house, or an 8' tall x 8' deep x 16'
long quarter cylinder with 5 curved spaced beams made from $20 worth of 12'
1x3s, or an 8'x 16' patch of transparent "solar siding" instead of some of
the south siding on the house, at about the same cost, or a transparent
polycarbonate roof, at a lower cost than the usual roof, with no shingles or
tarpaper or sheathing, and less labor, and lots of light in the attic, or a
walk out basement with 2 or 3 8x8' sliding glass doors on the south wall. 

4. Find how much thermal mass you need in the solar closet, to keep the
house warm for 5 cloudy days in a row. 5x100K = 500K Btu, right? A 55
gallon drum cooling from 130F to 80F releases about 25 K Btu, so you could
use 500K/25K = 20 drums, say 2 layers of 10 drums in a 4' deep x 10' wide
x 8' tall solar closet, with 10' x 8' of single pane glazing and an air gap
over the insulated south side, ie in the wall between house and sunspace. 

Powerful natural forces, smart low-power controls, and minimal elegant
beautiful structures, like sailboats, but less expensive... 

Nick



From Mlobrien@btinternet.com Thu Oct 24 20:28:57 EDT 1996
Article: 1322 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!btinternet!usenet
From: "Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 17 Oct 1996 20:49:42 GMT
Organization: BT Internet
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host-73-35-77.btinternet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1322 alt.architecture.alternative:8572 alt.energy.renewable:18735 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9538

daniel@smtp1.laser.net wrote in article 
: 
: Marc
: 
: Its not the people within my industry that Im 
: concerned with. Its the casual, leisurely reader 
: like you that may be swayed by the loudest voice. 
: Speculation with no practical back up is no more 
: than speculation.
: 
: People in my industry have already done the lab 
: work and know what the result is. Thats why we are 
: not pasting plastic greenhouses around the 
: neighborhood.
: 
: Youre right I have a bad attitude when I talk to Mr 
: Pine. But I feel better now.
: 
: Dan

Yeh sure, what ever turns you on Pal.
 


From sunone@pathcom.com Thu Oct 24 20:28:58 EDT 1996
Article: 1323 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!n2ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:05:28 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 95
Message-ID: <545pu7$737@news.pathcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7l7.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1323 alt.energy.renewable:18737 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9545

John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) wrote:

>Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>>I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
>>McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
>>climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
>>do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
>>skiing.

>>I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>>garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
>>small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>>the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water, 
>>circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
>>exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof 
>>temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
>>solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
>>years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
>>off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
>>sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
>>always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
>>enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
>>pool in late May and close it in early September.


>Befoe this topic dies - can you tell me how putting the pipes in
>parallel "keeps the head loss low"?
>I am thinking of doing this deal, and I need to know the best way to
>get the water from my 3" pool pipes up onto the roof which is some
>distance away (say 25 feet horizontal ) and up to the roof (say 15-20
>feet above the filter pump).
>There will be a fair resistance (??) as the pipe narrows to the black
>poly pipe diameter - will my filter pump (1.5hp) handle the pressure
>load from the height as well as the resistance from the smaller tube ?
>What "valves" need to be put in this system?

96:10:17

Dear John

There are a couple of ways to keep the head loss low. The most
efficient is to use several (many) coils in parallel (each coil being
supplied (and returned to) by a common pipe) rather than one big coil
with one inlet and outlet. The supply and return lines must be a least
the same size as your regular plumbing -- or -- a second less
desirable method of reducing pressure drop -- substancially reduce the
flow rate of the water through the piping, which will also allow you
to use smaller diameter piping.

Note: the principle of using multiple parallel paths is used in almost
all commercial solar pool panels. They typically have dozens (if not
hundreds) of parallel tubes per panel. This is why they have such low
pressure drops while handling all of the flow from the pool filter.

Note 2: To collect the most heat from any solar panel, you want it to
operate as cool as possible. The warmer it is, the more heat it loses
to the air around it. So you want to push as much water as you can
through the panels to keep their temperature down. This will be a
problem if you have only one continuous coil as the pressure drop
through it will be very high, and this will seriously reduce the flow
rate through your filter.

To solve the problem of high pressure drop in a single coil system you
can install a diverter valve in the pool plumbing (between the supply
and return lines of the solar system) and open in to allow some water
to bypas the solar system and go staight back to the pool.

BTW all solar plumbing should be on the line returning to the pool,
after the filter (this keeps the crap out of the solar panels).

A third way to reduce the "effect" of the pressure drop from a solar
system on a pool pump is to use a seperate pump to circulate the water
throught the solar panels. This does involve the additional expenses
of the pump and the operation of the pump (and perhaps a seperate
timer/controller).

To answer your question as to whether or not you 1.5 hp pump could
"handle the pressure", it will work but pump much less water. The
result is you will likely get insufficient filtering to keep your pool
clean. A well installed commercial system might see a 4 psi pressure
drop between solar on & off. A single coil system could easily see a
20 psi pressure drop.

Another point to mention about pressure drops, is that in closed
systems (not open to the air) the height of the solar panels is not a
factor (except when first filling the system) because the weight of
the column of water going up equals the weight of the column of water
coming down. If the system is "open" with a vacuum breaker or other
method the column of water going up is not offset by the water coming
back.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.




From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:28:59 EDT 1996
Article: 1324 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: combining a solar water heater and attic warmstore
Date: 18 Oct 1996 09:49:23 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <5481t3$616@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <hankDzDtyD.Lz1@netcom.com> <545g3r$nfo@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1324 alt.architecture.alternative:8576 alt.energy.renewable:18738 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9549

                      ........ R20                    .     R20       ---
                       6 drums                  . drum drum .
polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .---
film sunspace --> . g R20                  .    . solar air .    .    11'
                 .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8'
   pond         .   g <-- single glazing   .    .           .    . R
            .....................      ...................................
                                           |          12'        |

During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the outside of
the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom of an air heater, and up
through a 6" air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single
layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. At night, the
air heater would get cold, and the heat would stay trapped in the attic.
Steve Baer and Norman Saunders, PE, have been building systems like this 
for the last 30 years.
 
Suppose there are 6 plastic 55 gallon drums in the attic. 

A few numerical questions: 
 
1. What would the average stagnation drumwater temperature be in December?  

With a frozen pond to the south, about 1300 Btu/ft^2/day would fall on the
sunspace glazing, of which about 1050x8'x12' = 100K Btu would enter the air
heater, on an average December day in Philadelphia, with a 24 hour average
outdoor temperature of 36 F. So if the drumwater has temp T, and the sunspace
air is 70 F, and the solar energy that flows into the drumwater equals the
water heat loss, on an average day, we have  

100K Btu =   6 hr(T-70)8x12/R1   from the air heater during the day
           +24 hr(T-36)10x12/R20 from the roof, 24 hours a day
         = 576T - 40320 + 144T - 5184 = 720T - 45504, or
T = (100K+45.5K)/720 = 202 F.

OK, altho radiation losses would make this temperature closer to 130 F,
without a selective surface, and this doesn't consider house heating or
hot water consumption, yet. 

2. If the average drumwater temp were 110 F, what is the minimum average
R-value needed for the cabin walls, so the drums can keep the cabin at 68 F 
for 8 hours per day for 5 days without sun? 

The drums store about 6(110-80)55x8 = 80K Btu, and the cabin walls have an
area of about 350 ft^2, so ignoring the heat loss through the roof, we have
80K = 5x8x(68-36)350/R = 450K/R, so R = 450K/80K = 5.6. Suppose we use an
R10 average. R20 for the walls themselves, and window losses that make the
total no less than R10. Then the cabin needs 8hr(68-36)350ft^2/R10 = 9K Btu
to stay warm on an average 8 hour day.

3. Would the sunspace really be 70 F, during the day?

The heat loss from the air heater would be about (110-70)8x12/R1 = 3840
Btu/hour, and the 12'x8'x8' curved sunspace has about 400 ft^2 of R1 glazing,
and the avg daytime high temp in Phila in December is 43 F, for an approximate
sunspace temp Tss = 43 + 3840xR1/400 = 52.6 F. We could put less energy into
the water to make the average sunspace temp 70 F, so we can heat the cabin
with sunspace air, by impeding the air heater airflow so the air temp goes up 
and we lose 12K vs 4K Btu/hr. Then Tss = 43 + 12K/400 = 73 F. Better. But
the sunspace loss would increase to 6hrx12K = 72K Btu/day. We could double
glaze the sunspace to cut this in half... Or just remove 9K Btu/day of 110 F
air from the air heater, ie 40 cfm, and leave the sunspace cooler. It seems
to me a human or plant might be fairly warm in a 53 F room full of still air,
if exposed to direct sun.

Or we could use a larger sunspace. We might add on another curved poly film
12'x 8' sunspace to the east, with a poly film covered strawbale wall to the
north. This would collect an additional 100K Btu of sun per day, and increase
the sunspace glazing area to about 700 ft^2. How much leftover energy will
there be if we keep the whole sunspace at 70 F on an average day? 

200K - 6(70-43)700ft^2/R1 = 87K Btu/day.

4. How many 4 minute 2 gpm showers can we take on an average day, while
heating 32 F water to 110 F? 

Each shower takes 4x2x8(110-32) = 5K Btu, so with N showers/day, we have

87K Btu =  24 hr(110-36)10x12/R20  from the roof, 24 hours a day
         + 9K Btu                  for space heating
	 + 5K N Btu                for water heating
         = 10.6K + 9K + 5K N, so N = (87K - 19.6K)/5K = 13.

Did I do this arithmetic correctly?

This would work better with 55 F well water. 

Off to do more hammering, on this cool and blustery day.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

                                          Tom Smith, 1980



From guymacon@deltanet.com Thu Oct 24 20:29:00 EDT 1996
Article: 1325 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.deltanet.com!usenet
From: guymacon@deltanet.com (Guy Macon)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: 18 Oct 1996 15:38:32 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <54889o$sd0@news01.deltanet.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.v <545pu7$737@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ana1038.deltanet.com
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1325 alt.energy.renewable:18742 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9559

Expanding on a point in Andrew's excellent post;

In article <545pu7$737@news.pathcom.com>, sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney) says:
>
>Another point to mention about pressure drops, is that in closed
>systems (not open to the air) the height of the solar panels is not a
>factor (except when first filling the system) because the weight of
>the column of water going up equals the weight of the column of water
>coming down. If the system is "open" with a vacuum breaker or other
>method the column of water going up is not offset by the water coming
>back.
>

This is 100% true in any reasonable solar pool heater, but there is an
exception that the industrial folks migh run into...

The weight of the column of water going down only offsets the first
11 meters or so of the column of water going up.  Past that, a
partial vacuum forms in the line going down.  This assumes 1
atmosphere at the outlet.  A pressurized loop can go higher and
still have a full syphon effect.

The real problem is when you expect the water going down to cool
something.  The partial vacuum (water vapour, really) does not
cool the pipe walls as well as water would...


From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:01 EDT 1996
Article: 1326 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersurf.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:41:27 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <326831C7.300A@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: pub-17-a-137.dialup.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1326 alt.energy.renewable:18743 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9563

John Harrison wrote:
> 
> Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> >I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
> >McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
> >climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
> >do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
> >skiing.
> 
> >I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
> >garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
> >small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
> >the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water,
> >circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
> >exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof
> >temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
> >solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
> >years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
> >off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
> >sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
> >always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
> >enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
> >pool in late May and close it in early September.
> 
> Befoe this topic dies - can you tell me how putting the pipes in
> parallel "keeps the head loss low"?

A pump only pushes so much water through a given resistance so if you
put four 1000' pipes in parallel you'll have 1/4 of the resistance of
4000' in series.

> I am thinking of doing this deal, and I need to know the best way to
> get the water from my 3" pool pipes up onto the roof which is some
> distance away (say 25 feet horizontal ) and up to the roof (say 15-20
> feet above the filter pump).
> There will be a fair resistance (??) as the pipe narrows to the black
> poly pipe diameter - will my filter pump (1.5hp) handle the pressure
> load from the height as well as the resistance from the smaller tube ?

No. I used a separate Grundfos brand circulating pump that taps into my
2" pool line just after the filter and returns the heated water on the
other side of an elbow - it isn't meant to run without the main pool
pump running.  I've got about a 10' rise to the garage roof.  I
recommend that you run as large a pipe to the roof as practical to keep
losses down.

> What "valves" need to be put in this system?

I would suggest six.  One one each of the four 1000' coils to aid in
blowing them out (assuming your in an area that freezes) plus two more
to isolate the heater from the main pool circulating line is case you
solar system develops a leak.

-- 
Dick Lambert 				800 Brenner Avenue
President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu




From s_json@hanbat.chungnam.ac.kr Thu Oct 24 20:29:02 EDT 1996
Article: 1327 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.chungnam.ac.kr!hanbat.chungnam.ac.kr!s_json
From: s_json@hanbat.chungnam.ac.kr (jong son pyo)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Some WWW sites relating to renewable energy
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 19 Oct 1996 17:49:33 GMT
Organization: Chungnam National University of Korea
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <54b4bd$rmr@news.chungnam.ac.kr>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <53vlb9$r54@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <542lt0$apn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3265868F.6725@gate.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hanbat.chungnam.ac.kr
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1327 alt.architecture.alternative:8581 alt.energy.renewable:18747 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9575

Henry Bloom (hdb@gate.net) wrote:
: The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US
: government department of energy site.) 

: http://www.nrel.gov/  
: http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   
: http://www.realgoods.com/   
: http://www.bergey.com/index.html 
: http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html
: http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html 
: http://www.gridwise.com/ 
: http://www.webpage.com/wpt/  
: http://solstice.crest.org/


From tooie@sover.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:02 EDT 1996
Article: 1328 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!not-for-mail
From: tooie@sover.net (Tooie)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Supporting loads (was Re: 2X4 joists)
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.home.repair,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 16 Oct 1996 23:01:19 GMT
Organization: SoVerNet, Inc.
Lines: 19
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <543pfv$25l@thrush.sover.net>
References: <325FC765.7084@concentric.net> <32642398.4196100@news.demon.co.uk> <5421kt$85b@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3264DA2B.794B@sdrc.com> <542sif$bn2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.sover.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1328 alt.home.repair:36648 alt.energy.renewable:18754 alt.architecture.alternative:8589 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9588

Nick Pine (nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu) wrote:
: Greg Marion  <greg.marion@sdrc.com> wrote:
: 
: >This is a great thread! 
: 
: It does seem like fun.
: 
: >Now - what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2x8x12
: >support using double 2x4 criples on both sides? 
: 
: I dunno. What's a cripple? I've decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full
: of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12' 2x6 with 2 12' 2x4s
: and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2x6 at the bottom, made
: from 2 10' pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up?
: 

Just load it til it breaks, rebuild it and put a little less on it ;-)

tooie


From jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:03 EDT 1996
Article: 1329 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jr4q+
From: Jason Mansfield Roth <jr4q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Long term heat storage for unusual and inexpensive houses
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:12:42 -0400
Organization: Sponsored account, Office of the Dean - CFA, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4mNP8ua00iWUEGUKgg@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961012134531.16934A-100000-100000-100000@freenet> <32613A5A.50FE@patriot.net>
	<Pine.SGI.3.91r.961014124843.28830b-100000@freenet>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.91r.961014124843.28830b-100000@freenet>
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1329 alt.architecture.alternative:8604 alt.energy.renewable:18767

	<32613A5A.50FE@patriot.net>>> We can build 100% solar homes with
sufficient thermal mass
>> and only moderate insulation.  My plan is to build a 40' wooden geodesic
>> dome and cover it with an earth mound.  Then a few inches of  insulation
>> on th mound and another earth covering, enough to let grass root on top
>> of it.  
> 
>Of course, earth is an effect insulation, depending on depth and water
>content.  
> 
>> The house will have solar gain from the southern exposed face and
>> summer heat will be pumped into the mound through air tubes. 
> 
>What will be the heat storage meduim?  Air, earth, or water?  Have you
 
There is a man out west...John Hiatt perhaps (I know that's a rock star,
but I think that's about the name of the builder) who has had success
with such a system (no dome, but an umbrella of insulated earth over a
building). I believe he's in a fairly harsh climate, and gets year-round
storage. The whole principle of earth shelter (even w/o insulating the
earth) is that earth moderates temps and effectively puts the building
in a wind-free 55 degree environment year-round. This makes solar
heating simple with little more than the mass of a cement or tile floor.
Obviously, no matter what your Btu needs, you must have mass to mtach
your glass area or face over/underheating, but the principle is simple. 

Ah, I just checked -- It's John Hait -- Box 4694, Missoula, MT 59806.
And he uses "umbrellas" of insulation over the house (part of the
advantage of this practice -- combine it with a butyl sheet, and you
have a large store of _dry_ earth around your building. It's the cold
water seeping through the soil that robs most of the heat from earth
shelters. Hait also uses earth tubes, hundreds of feet long according to
Mac Wells.

Anyway, hope that insight is helpful. I just want to reiterate that a
basic, well-designed earth shelter should not require much more than a
1/2 cord of wood per year anyway. Add the extreme climate, but subtract
a mass of dry earth, and you should have no problems (question -- how
much sunlight do you get? Frankly, it's the 3 days w/o sun that drain
the mound's heat more than winter in general; in a sunny area, you may
never rely on the mound for more than the temp moderator/wind buffer
that it is).


JMR

93 SL2, blue-green

"I never gave anyone hell -- I just told 'em the truth, and they thought
it was hell."

"What's the use of a good house if you don't have a decent planet to put
it on?"



From mail.crosslink.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:04 EDT 1996
Article: 1330 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.magicnet.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: hwalker@crosslink.net (Howard Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Insulating underground copper pipe
Date: 16 Oct 1996 05:17:15 GMT
Organization: crosslink.net
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <541r4r$lr1$2@kronos.crosslink.net>
Reply-To: mail.crosslink.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.65.34
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7

By necessity, I am forced to mount my 5 panel array approximately 60 feet 
>from  my house.
In one of Ted Lucas' books, a fellow in Pa. did that but utilized 12" 
diameter PVC with spacers to hold the pipe in place and then had insulating 
foam injected inside.  He claimed an R value of 30.
Well, 12" is prohibitively expensive.  I have priced 10" and for around $250, 
I can make the run....anyone have some better input to the situation???
I need to get started fairly soon.....cold weather is on the way here in VA.

Howard



From jbrown@twd.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:05 EDT 1996
Article: 1331 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: James W Brown <jbrown@twd.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Low-Cost solar collectors - Info request
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:04:04 -0700
Organization: CrossLink Internet Services
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <326658F4.1607@twd.net>
References: <0000599d+00000268@msn.com> <53pg2r$lit$1@zeus.crosslink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.31.46.119
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)

Howard Walker wrote:
> 
> In article <0000599d+00000268@msn.com>, ffrick@msn.com says...
> >
> >  I would like to build a solar heat system for my home. If anyone
> >has information on where I might get plans to build or purchase Low
> >Cost Solar collectors.
> >  I Live in Boston, Massachusetts and would like to supplement our
> >home heating system.
> >
> >                           Rick Magee
> >                           ffrick@msn.com
> 
> Go to your local library and check out, "Ted Lucas....Low cost Solar
> Heating."  He wrote some damn good stuff in the late 70's - early 80's.
> He is the one that got me thinking about solar heating for my pool.
> 
> Howard WalkerCheck the Solar Topic on my homepage for a summary of a similar system.

   http://homepage.twd.net/jimsspot/index.htm

Might help to evaluate the proposals

    --JB


From philippe.bruno@skynet.be Thu Oct 24 20:29:06 EDT 1996
Article: 1332 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Belgium.EU.net!news
From: Philippe BRUNO <philippe.bruno@skynet.be>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: How to make a house energy independent in Belgium ?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:22:51 +0200
Organization: Hmmm....does it -really- leads to a better world ?    : - )
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3266B1BB.5C1A@skynet.be>
Reply-To: philippe.bruno@skynet.be
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup10.verviers.eunet.be
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I)
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Thermal.asc"

Hello there !

I live in Belgium. Eastern part of Belgium, near Germany.

This is definitely not the sunniest place in the world... :-)

The house, here, is on top of a hill, in the middle of nowhere...
It's very well located to get all the wind, and all the sun, when it
shines... :-)

It's quite a big house, and I would like to make it "energy-independent",
especially as far as HEATING is concerned.

The house has a fuel-oil boiler, connected to a classic "central heating"
system, and my idea is to put solar panels on the roof and to use the energy
they would produce to heat a liquid that would replace the water that is
actually running in the radiators.

I have been told that to use photovoltaic panels to produce electricity, and
then to use the electricity to heat a liquid is a big mistake, because the
efficiency would be very low, and that I should better use "thermal solar
panels".

I am not a newbie, but this is a matter I really don't know anything
about...

So, I would *really* appreciate if you could give me as much information as
possible about what would be the best solution, as well as where to find all
necessary products.

Tips of any kind (URL's, personal experiences, FAQ's, and so on), are
welcome !

Thank you in advance for your help !

Best regards to all,

Philippe BRUNO

PS : in order not to pollute the groups with such a "basic" question,
     pls answer directly to : philippe.bruno@skynet.be
     Thank you !



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:07 EDT 1996
Article: 1333 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: How to make a house energy independent in Belgium ?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 07:00:06 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <326B57B4.4E78@patriot.net>
References: <3266B67B.3AE3@skynet.be> <326B2C1F.3A30@aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-8.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:55787 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1921 alt.solar.thermal:1333

Ingo Bruemmer wrote:

> I dont think that your question is too basic. Why should this subject not be > discussed here. Or has anyone a better idea?
> 
> I live in the middle of Germany, in Hannover. And things here aren't easy as well. I > also think of solar energy for my house.
> [...] 
> It hard to get information on that in Germany. As any of the readers ideas?

The short answer:

   Start with an energy audit, to acquire a baseline energy consumption
profile.
http://ecep1.usl.edu/ecep/audits/a/a.htm

   Make sure your house has adequate insulation and infiltration
protection.  Your heating requirements can be reduced dramatically if
you have a house that utilizes minimal insulating techniques.  
http://www.lib.montana.edu/ARCHIVE/databases/Cold_Climate_Collection/INSULATE

Windows can be the greatest heat loss culprits. 
http://www.ma.adfa.oz.au/%7Eprl/AAWG/newslet/nl10.htm#Window_en_effic
http://www.wasco1.com/~johnabb/glazedefine/

Consider passive solar in conjunction with active solar.
http://www.eren.doe.gov/office/femp/fact_passive.html
http://www.nrel.gov/documents/caddet/register/94-507.htm

For active thermal solar, consider all available technologies, such as
evacuated tube collectors in addition to flat plate collectors.
http://www.softaid.net/thermomax/

For two excellent URL lists, visit;
http://www.eren.doe.gov/RE/solar.html
http://www.eren.doe.gov/EE/buildings.html

Congratulations on your objective!

Cheers,
 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:08 EDT 1996
Article: 1334 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 19 Oct 1996 23:17:23 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1334 alt.energy.renewable:18818

The latest issue of Hubbard's Pool and Spa Marketing describes a number of 
interesting safety covers which look like they could become R10 pool covers,
with a little imagination.

Here's a quote from the editorial page:

  The National Spa and Pool Institute out of Alexandria, VA provides
  quarterly trend reports which offer insight into consumer buying trends
  through surveys. Their first quarter report for 1996 indicated that the
  desire by consumers in the United States to own an inground swimming pool
  had fallen by 33.3 per cent from nine per cent of consumers surveyed in
  October 1995, who were "very interested" in owning an inground pool, to
  only six per cent who had a strong interest in the April 1996 survey. The
  number of consumers interested in an above-ground pool or spa remained
  unchanged at levels of three per cent and eleven per cent respectively. 

  At the same time, Thom Blischok, a business consultant who recently spoke
  at the CEO Leadership converence in Washington, sponsored by NSPI, has done
  new research on consumer attitudes as well as industry attitudes and he
  feels that the "disconnect" between what consumers want and what the pool
  and spa industry is currently producing, marketing and selling creates a
  major gap in the selling process.

  According to Mr. Blischok, it appears that consumers see the industry as
  price-driven, fragmented, offering no innovation and that the products
  are of questionable quality.

Nick



From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Thu Oct 24 20:29:09 EDT 1996
Article: 1335 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news.PBI.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.vbc.net!news.mira.net.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:10:57 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <54glg5$ikf@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <326831C7.300A@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1335 alt.energy.renewable:18837 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9636

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

amongst other stuff

>No. I used a separate Grundfos brand circulating pump that taps into my
>2" pool line just after the filter and returns the heated water on the
>other side of an elbow - it isn't meant to run without the main pool
>pump running.  I've got about a 10' rise to the garage roof.  I
>recommend that you run as large a pipe to the roof as practical to keep
>losses down.

>> What "valves" need to be put in this system?

>I would suggest six.  One one each of the four 1000' coils to aid in
>blowing them out (assuming your in an area that freezes) plus two more
>to isolate the heater from the main pool circulating line is case you
>solar system develops a leak.

I am not in an area that EVER freezes, but I thought that I would need
a valve at the pump end to prevent " backflushing " from  the water up
on the roof when the pump goes off, and also some other sort of valve
to stop the down pipe (outlet) from the solar collector from
collapsing from negative pressure when the pump goes off (won't the
water in this pipe just run down into the pool otherwise?).
Excuse my ignorance - I know nothing about solar, pressure, flow,
valves etc!!!
What sort of valves are we talking about???? 




From markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de Thu Oct 24 20:29:10 EDT 1996
Article: 1336 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!news.maz.net!ins.net!loca.net!usenet
From: Markus Goerres <markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar adsorption cooling
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:26:35 +0200
Organization: LocaNet
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <326A1A7B.56B2@dortmund.netsurf.de>
Reply-To: markus.goerres@dortmund.netsurf.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: portc5.dortmund.netsurf.de
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)

Where can I get some information about adsorption cooling in general and
adsorption cooling combined with thermal solar energy?
I intend no! a b sorption

Greetings
-- 
Markus Goerres
eMail: markus.goerres@Dortmund.netsurf.de
URL: http://www.Dortmund.netsurf.de/~mgoerres/




From chiefmac@intrex.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:11 EDT 1996
Article: 1337 of alt.solar.thermal
Message-ID: <326A51D6.29BF@intrex.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 12:22:46 -0400
From: Chief Mac <chiefmac@intrex.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Project
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.153.25.10
Lines: 13
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!rtp2.intrex.net!

Hi, I'm a high school student and I'm doing a project concerning Thermal
energy from the sun.  I want to be able to melt aluminum using sunlight.
I'm need a few things though.  If anyone out there knows or can brain
storm a few ideas about the following things, I'd be extremely grateful
and will gladly update you on my progress.

-At what temp. does Aluminun melt?
-What are effective ways to concentrate light?
-It is possible to make lens (ie: magnifying glasses) at home?

					Thanks!

					A Grateful Student:  
					M. MacDougall
					Enloe HS, Raleigh,NC
					bigmacd@juno.com


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Thu Oct 24 20:29:12 EDT 1996
Article: 1338 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Panel orientation?
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:26:37 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port20.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82


This is probably in a FAQ somewhere, but I can't see one?

Obviously a fixed solar panel should face south (in northern
hemisphere), I would like to know what angle to the horizontal is
optimum for a 'flat', fixed panel (I sort of know the answer to this
one - I'd like some confirmation and justification).
In this particular case the latitude is 56 1/2 N.

(In case anyone remembers I'm planning to install one of the
freeze-tolerant panels I mentioned some time ago!)

Gordon.




From redrok@pclink.com Thu Oct 24 20:29:13 EDT 1996
Article: 1339 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Project
Message-ID: <326AF161.28BA@pclink.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:43:29 -0700
References: <326A51D6.29BF@intrex.net>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52

Hi BigMac;

Chief Mac wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'm a high school student and I'm doing a project concerning Thermal
> energy from the sun.  I want to be able to melt aluminum using sunlight.
> I'm need a few things though.  If anyone out there knows or can brain
> storm a few ideas about the following things, I'd be extremely grateful
> and will gladly update you on my progress.
> 
> -At what temp. does Aluminun melt?

I just looked it up. 1220F. Although this is pure aluminium
the different alloys can be higher or lower by a small amount.

> -What are effective ways to concentrate light?

The best way is to use very high concentrations. Usually
20 to 1 or better works good.

> -It is possible to make lens (ie: magnifying glasses) at home?

Well not really. You can buy some pretty large fresnel lenses.
These ar quite expensive.

The best way is to use a parabolic reflecter. These can be
quite large. If you use an old 12 ft fiberglass satellite dish
and line it with aluminium foil you will have a large amount of 
power available. In the neighborhood of 9000watts thermal.

> A Grateful Student:
> M. MacDougall
> Enloe HS, Raleigh,NC
> bigmacd@juno.com

-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever
Ignorance can be Fixed

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:14 EDT 1996
Article: 1340 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:52:50 -0700
Organization: R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <326C5321.749D@gold.tc.umn.edu>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <326831C7.300A@gold.tc.umn.edu> <54glg5$ikf@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
Reply-To: lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: pub-20-a-145.dialup.umn.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1340 alt.energy.renewable:18839 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9646

John Harrison wrote:
> 
> Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> 
> amongst other stuff
> 
> >No. I used a separate Grundfos brand circulating pump that taps into my
> >2" pool line just after the filter and returns the heated water on the
> >other side of an elbow - it isn't meant to run without the main pool
> >pump running.  I've got about a 10' rise to the garage roof.  I
> >recommend that you run as large a pipe to the roof as practical to keep
> >losses down.
> 
> >> What "valves" need to be put in this system?
> 
> >I would suggest six.  One one each of the four 1000' coils to aid in
> >blowing them out (assuming your in an area that freezes) plus two more
> >to isolate the heater from the main pool circulating line is case you
> >solar system develops a leak.
> 
> I am not in an area that EVER freezes, 

Then you wouldn't really need the individual valves on the four parallel
coils.  I'd still recommend the two isolating valves at the pool pump in
case the system developes a leak you shut it off without having to turn
off your main pool pump.

>but I thought that I would need
> a valve at the pump end to prevent " backflushing " from  the water up
> on the roof when the pump goes off

This isn't a problem unless you have a leak in the pipe above that opens
the system to the atmosphere.

> and also some other sort of valve
> to stop the down pipe (outlet) from the solar collector from
> collapsing from negative pressure when the pump goes off 

This isn't a problem

(won't the
> water in this pipe just run down into the pool otherwise?).

See above


> Excuse my ignorance - I know nothing about solar, pressure, flow,
> valves etc!!! What sort of valves are we talking about????

I'd suggest what's know as a ball valve - they are available from any
decent do-it-yourself store.  Get one that has a full sized port, i.e.,
the hole thru the rotating ball should be the same size as the pipe the
valve it for.

-- 
Dick Lambert 				800 Brenner Avenue
President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:15 EDT 1996
Article: 1341 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news-in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: 21 Oct 1996 06:49:11 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <54fkf7$cp5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1341 alt.energy.renewable:18846

The latest issue of Hubbard's Pool and Spa Marketing describes a number of 
interesting safety covers which look like they could become R10 pool covers,
with a little imagination...

One interesting one is the deck-anchored "Hover Cover" from Hollenbeck
Industries. which "creates the chararcteristic 'domed' design by using
air-supported reinforced vinyl material over the pool surface. Air pressure
is created by a shop vac or air compressor that is attached to a fill port
on top of the cover. The above ground version of the Hover Cover is secured
to the side of the pool with a cable that is threaded through grommets in 
the cover material and tightened with a winch. Special hooks are also
attached to each upright to ensure that no gaps are left around the cover's
perimeter... [with] a skirt of material that hangs down inside the pool wall
into the water, creating an air seal around the cover after it has been
anchored."

There's a description of the 12/91 ASTM standard for safety covers, which
specifies that any gaps around the pool be small enough that a test object
be unable to pass through, and that covers for pools >8' diameter or width
support a minimum static load of 485 pounds, the combined weight of 2
adults and 1 child in a standard rescue operation.

There's a picture of a Hover Cover in the magazine. It looks to be about 3'
tall in the middle, and tight as a drum, with crinkled sides, and opaque.

Seems like this could be a nice R10 solar pool cover if it had a solid
insulating deck for safety purposes, that sank for swimming, and a tall
transparent vs squat opaque top, with a reflective north wall, and some
sort of airlock door, and a lower pressure, eg 1/4" H20 (over a thousand
pounds for a 24x36' pool), like a commercial plastic film greenhouse.

Nick



From dcj@atl.mindspring.com Thu Oct 24 20:29:16 EDT 1996
Article: 1342 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!usenet
From: dcj@atl.mindspring.com (Dale C. Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Project
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:13:04 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <54g7a8$3dh@camel0.mindspring.com>
References: <326A51D6.29BF@intrex.net>
Reply-To: dcj@atl.mindspring.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: user-168-121-109-65.dialup.mindspring.com
X-Server-Date: 21 Oct 1996 16:10:48 GMT
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Chief Mac <chiefmac@intrex.net> wrote:

:>Hi, I'm a high school student and I'm doing a project concerning Thermal
:>energy from the sun.  I want to be able to melt aluminum using sunlight.
:>I'm need a few things though.  If anyone out there knows or can brain
:>storm a few ideas about the following things, I'd be extremely grateful
:>and will gladly update you on my progress.

:>-At what temp. does Aluminun melt?
:>-What are effective ways to concentrate light?
:>-It is possible to make lens (ie: magnifying glasses) at home?

:>					Thanks!

:>					A Grateful Student:  
:>					M. MacDougall
:>					Enloe HS, Raleigh,NC
:>					bigmacd@juno.com

Call Edmund Scientific @ (609) 573-6250 and request a copy of their
catalog #16N7.  Covers optics and optical instruments.  They have
anumber of products that can be easily adapted to achieve what you
want.

DCJ

-- dcj@mindspring.com



From krimson@micron.net Thu Oct 24 20:29:17 EDT 1996
Article: 1343 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.micron.net!news
From: krimson@micron.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 02:30:55 GMT
Organization: Micron Internet Services
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <54jsi6$mob@is05.micron.net>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <326831C7.300A@gold.tc.umn.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cboi042p01.boi.micron.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1343 alt.energy.renewable:18852 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9672

Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>John Harrison wrote:
>> 
>> Dick Lambert <lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> >I missed the first posts on this subject but I gather that Andrew
>> >McKegney  was looking for some ideas on solar pool heating in a cold
>> >climate.  Will someone with a 12 year old solar pool heater in Minnesota
>> >do?  Minnesota - you know, the place where summer is two months of bad
>> >skiing.
>> 
>> >I put four 1000' coils of 1" black poly piping on my (admittedly flat)
>> >garage roof.  They are plumbed in parallel to keep the head loss low.  A
>> >small Grundfos pump, controlled by a $100 controller that senses
>> >the temperature of the roof as well as the pool water,
>> >circulates water through the system anytime the roof temperature
>> >exceeds the pool water temp.  It also will run the solar pump if the roof
>> >temperature is below 40 to prevent freezing.  I use a "bubble pack"
>> >solar cover.  I haven't had any maintenance expenses on the system in 12
>> >years and it typically keeps the pool between 88 and 90 (the pump turns
>> >off at 90) .  It is able to bring the water up about 6 or 7 degrees per
>> >sunny day if we have a long cool cloudy stretch.  In short, the pool has
>> >always been at a comfortable temperature anytime the outside was warm
>> >enough for anyone to be interested in swimming.  We typically open the
>> >pool in late May and close it in early September.
>> 
>> Befoe this topic dies - can you tell me how putting the pipes in
>> parallel "keeps the head loss low"?

>A pump only pushes so much water through a given resistance so if you
>put four 1000' pipes in parallel you'll have 1/4 of the resistance of
>4000' in series.

>> I am thinking of doing this deal, and I need to know the best way to
>> get the water from my 3" pool pipes up onto the roof which is some
>> distance away (say 25 feet horizontal ) and up to the roof (say 15-20
>> feet above the filter pump).
>> There will be a fair resistance (??) as the pipe narrows to the black
>> poly pipe diameter - will my filter pump (1.5hp) handle the pressure
>> load from the height as well as the resistance from the smaller tube ?

>No. I used a separate Grundfos brand circulating pump that taps into my
>2" pool line just after the filter and returns the heated water on the
>other side of an elbow - it isn't meant to run without the main pool
>pump running.  I've got about a 10' rise to the garage roof.  I
>recommend that you run as large a pipe to the roof as practical to keep
>losses down.

>> What "valves" need to be put in this system?

>I would suggest six.  One one each of the four 1000' coils to aid in
>blowing them out (assuming your in an area that freezes) plus two more
>to isolate the heater from the main pool circulating line is case you
>solar system develops a leak.

>-- 
>Dick Lambert 				800 Brenner Avenue
>President				Roseville, Mn 55113-1904
>R.C. Lambert & Associates, Inc.		(612) 483-1492
>Energy Conservation Consulting Engr	lambe015@gold.tc.umn.edu


Could this type of system be converted to warm a house?

Is there any way to use a pond in the winter to heat a house?






From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1344 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Solar spa heating arithmetic
Date: 21 Oct 1996 10:05:09 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 114
Message-ID: <54fvul$e7j@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1344 alt.energy.renewable:18858

The Comfort Spa (109 Woodbine Downs, Unit 3 & 4/Etobicoke, Ontario M9W 6X1,
(416) 213-9929) is octagonal and weighs "70 to 100 pounds." Their ad has a
picture of 2 thin people lifting one up on top of a car. The Comfy 1 model
fits 3 people, the Comfort Spa fits 6, and the Turbo Spa features "all of
the latest design innovations." 

The ad says it has a marine grade vinyl exterior, and an interior liner of
poly tri-ply PVC reinforced with a nylon scrim, and a schedule 40 PVC frame,
and polyethylene foam insulation, and a limited 5 year warranty. 

What would it take to solar heat this thing, assuming it's about 5' diameter,
with R20 sides and cover? Say, sit it on top of 4 plastic 55 gallon drums
inside some R10 insulation (2" of Styrofoam, with latex paint on the outside),
and add a 4' tall x 16' long polyethylene film window w on the front:

                                2'
                              -----
                            /   D   \
                          /| D     D |\       5'
                        /r  g   D   g  r\
                      / w w w w w w w w w \
                               16' 
                         reflecting pool

The inside wall marked r might be reflective, with polycarbonate glazing g
over the 5 south sides of the drum enclosure. This could be a direct gain
system, with sun shining in on the drums. If there were a reflecting pool in
the front, the drums might receive 1300 Btu/ft^2/day x 64 ft^2 x 0.9 x 0.9
= 67K Btu/day of sun where I live, with an average outdoor temperature of 36 F
in December. The thermal conductance from the drums to the outside air would
be about 20ft^2/R20 = 1 for the top, 24ft^2/R10 = 2.4 for the 3 north sides,
and 40ft^2/R2 = 20 for the other 5 sides, for a total of 23.4 Btu/hr-F-ft^2,
ignoring the spa for the moment, so we might find the steady-state drumwater
temp T from 

   24hr(T-36)23.4 = 67K, or T = 36 + 67K/5612.6 = 155F. 

Assuming we could make the water that temperature (unlikely, with radiation
losses) what happens after a cloudy week? RC = 4x500/23.4 = 85 hours, so 
T(168 hours) = 36 + (155-36)exp(-168hours/85 hours) = 52 F. Storing heat 
for a cloudy week is difficult with a direct gain system. Should we replace
the $3 piece of R1 poly film with $2500 worth of R8 windows? ("Of course,"
window manufacturers might say :-)

Or make it an indirect gain system, with an air heater on the sunny side, and
no airflow at night, with a conductivity of 1 for the top and 64ft^2/R10
= 6.4 for the sides, so RC = 4x500/7.4 = 270 hours? Then, if the water started
at 136 F, after a cloudy week it would be about 36 + (136-36)exp(-168/270)
= 89.7 F. Better, but still not warm enough. Let's add more insulation: with
R20 sides we have RC = 2000/4.2 = 476 hours and 36 + exp(-168/476) = 106 F.

But each 55 gallon drum has a surface area of about 25 ft^2 and a still air
surface film conductance of about 40 Btu/hr-F-ft^2, and we have 64 ft^2 of
glazing, for a thermal mass area/glazing area ratio of less than 2... So to
get 400 Btu/hr x 64 ft^2 = 83 K Btu/hr of full sun with reflection into the
drums, we need air around them that is about 83K/(4x40) = 519 F warmer than
the water inside. How can that be improved?

Increase the surface area by placing 3 8x8x16" concrete blocks with 3 holes
in them under each 3' tall drum, and put 2 1 liter soda bottles full of water
in each hole? Each block adds about 6 ft^2 of surface, and bottles add about
1 ft^2 each, for a total of about 4drumsx3blocksx12ft^2 = 144 ft^2 more area.
And let's fill up the 1ft^2 x 4 ft tall hole between the drums with another
13x4 1 and 2 liter bottles, for a total mass surface of 300 ft^2, reducing
the required air temp to 184 F warmer than the drum water, in full sun. But
only about 80% of the sun will pass through the glazing, reducing the delta T
to 148 F. Making the drum surfaces rougher and moving air at 4 mph past the
drums should increase their thermal conductivity to 2+4/2 = 4 Btu/hr-F-ft^2
and decrease the delta T to a more reasonable 83K/(300x4) = 69 F.

Or, we could just reduce the solar glazing, since we are collecting about 
10 times the solar power needed to keep the tub warm. Just glazing the 3
south sides gives 24 ft^2 of solar aperture, about 4 times more than needed: 

                                2'
                              -----
                            /   D   \
                           | D     D |        5'
                            g   D   g    
                              g g g         

                         reflecting pool

Now the solar glazing/thermal mass area ratio is about 12:1, and full sun is
about 5760 Btu/hr, and delta T = 5760/(300x4) = 5 F. About 28 K Btu/day of
sun shines in through the glazing, and about 6 hr(T-36)24 ft^2/R1 of heat is
lost through the glazing each day, making the linear water temp prediction
approximately 36 + 28K/(6x24) = 231 F. Still warm enough :-)

The spa itself might have a thermal conductivity of about 1 for the top and
3 for the sides, losing 24(105-36)4 = 6624 Btu on an average December day. 
The lower part would have a thermal conductivity of about 64ft^2/R20 = 3. The
55 gallon drums have a thermal mass of 4x55x8 = 1760 Btu/F, and the bottles
add about 60 x 4.2 = 252, for a total thermal mass of about 2000 Btu/F, so
a cloudy week might look like this:

day   drum temp   drum loss  spa temp  spa loss  total loss

0     136 F       7200 Btu   105 F     6624 Btu  13824 Btu       
1     129.1       6703       105       6624      13327
2     122.4       6223       105       6624      12847
3     116.0       5758       105       6624      12382
4     109.8       5314       105       6624      11938
5     103.8       4884       103.8     6509      11393
6      98.1       4471        98.1     5962      10433...

On a typical day, we might supply 6624/24 = 276 Btu/hr to the spa by pumping
276/20 = 13.8 pounds per hour or 0.029 gpm from a drum up into the spa, with
a 12 V 4 gpm pump running less than 1% of the time, while letting some spa
water flow back into the drum. On a sunny day, we might pump some pondwater
into the spa, and let it overflow on the ground, using no chemicals.

Nick



From snyderj@imap2.asu.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:18 EDT 1996
Article: 1345 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!email1.asu.edu!snyderj
From: Jeremy Snyder <snyderj@imap2.asu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Photo-voltaic cells
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:17:35 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.961021171622.22918B-100000@email1.asu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: email1.asu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: snyderj@email1.asu.edu

I heard a rumor about highly efficient photo-voltaics that have been 
developed.  Does anybody know more.  Present photo-voltaics are highly 
_inefficient_ and I want to know more about very efficient cells.  Please 
help.


From snyderj@imap2.asu.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:19 EDT 1996
Article: 1346 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!email1.asu.edu!snyderj
From: Jeremy Snyder <snyderj@imap2.asu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Vehicles
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:16:11 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.961021171444.22918A-100000@email1.asu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: email1.asu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: snyderj@email1.asu.edu

Anybody know much about solar vehicles?  Design?  Efficiency?  Materials?
Photovoltaic developments and how I can get ahold of information/ 
developers of such technology?  Please help.


From sunone@pathcom.com Thu Oct 24 20:29:20 EDT 1996
Article: 1347 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 03:15:46 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <54mnvn$690@news.pathcom.com>
References: <3233A71C.7A78@worldnet.att.net> <52evg4$984@news.pathcom.com> <52gvbo$8va@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52pi1n$r4s@news.pathcom.com> <52rhfv$2gm@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <52rt8h$nkr@news.pathcom.com> <3254688D.3F07@gold.tc.umn.edu> <540slm$3if@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <326831C7.300A@gold.tc.umn.edu> <54glg5$ikf@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1347 alt.energy.renewable:18878 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9718

John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison) wrote:

>I am not in an area that EVER freezes, but I thought that I would need
>a valve at the pump end to prevent " backflushing " from  the water up
>on the roof when the pump goes off, and also some other sort of valve
>to stop the down pipe (outlet) from the solar collector from
>collapsing from negative pressure when the pump goes off (won't the
>water in this pipe just run down into the pool otherwise?).
>Excuse my ignorance - I know nothing about solar, pressure, flow,
>valves etc!!!
>What sort of valves are we talking about???? 

The valve you are speaking of is a "check-valve" or "foot valve"(if at
the end of a pipe) They are designed to allow water to flow in only
one direction- ie: not drain out or back. They are available from any
plumbing store, or if you want PVC, a good pool service
store/department.

You will have a problem, if your system plumbing is "closed" meaning
not open to the air (anywhere), with a vacuum/negative pressure in the
plumbing at the highest point when the pump is off.

The solar industry uses vacuum breakers to allow air into the plumbing
if a negative pressure develops in the panels. This prevents plastic
panels, softened in high heat - non-operating conditions, from
collapsing. (and these products are designed to be in the sun - unlike
most poly pipe!)

Again, vacuum breakers can be purchased from a good plumbing store.

Shut off  valves should be used on the supply and return lines as
noted by others.

Andy McKegney C.E.T.






From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Oct 24 20:29:21 EDT 1996
Article: 1348 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Gee, somebody actually read our paper...
Date: 24 Oct 1996 08:07:30 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 170
Message-ID: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: rant du jour
Keywords: solar house heating KISS
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1348 alt.energy.renewable:18880 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9721

>> Consider a 1 m cubical solar closet (Fig. 1A) sitting outdoors on an
>> average 0 C December day near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. The
>> south wall of the closet, i.e., the solar air heater, receives about 3
>> kWh/m^2/day of solar heat, i.e. Ein = 3 kWh/day, more if there is snow
>> on the ground or a white surface or a shallow frozen reflecting pool
>> in front...
 
>This value is closer to 2.7 kWh/day and that is with a snow covered ground.

Let's see. The NREL _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and
Concentrating Collectors_ (printed with a renewable source ink on paper
containing at least 50% wastepaper :-) says the 24 hour average December air
temperature in Philadelphia over the last 30 years has been 2.1 C, not 0 C,
with a daytime high of 6.3 C. The nice folks at NREL say the average amount
of sun that has fallen on south walls for the last 30 years in December in
Phila has been 2.9 kWh/m^2/day, 1.8 min, 3.6 max, with an uncertainty of
+/-11%, and a standard deviation of 7.3%, given a 20% ground reflectivity,
using the Perez model (Perez, R.; Ineichen, P.; Seals, R.; Michalsky, J.;
Stewart, Will. (1990), "Modeling daylight availability and irradiance
components from direct and global irradiance." Solar Energy, 44(5),
pp. 271-289.)

Ic = Ib cos theta + Id + Ir, where
            theta is the incident angle of the sun's rays to the collector,
            and          Ir is the radiation reflected from the surface
	                    in front of the collector
and the diffuse radiation 

Id = Idh [0.5(1-F1)(1+cos beta) + F1 a/b + F2 sin beta], where

     Idh = diffuse solar horizontal radiation
     F1 = circumsolar anisotropy coefficient, function of sky condition
     F2 = horizon/zenith anisotropy coefficient, function of sky condition
     beta = tilt of the collector from horizontal
     a = the greater of 0 or the cosine of the incident angle
     b = the greater of 0.087 or the cosine of the solar zenith angle

They go on to say "The ground-reflected radiation received by a collector is
a function of the global horizontal radiation (Ih) the tilt of the collector
>from  the horizontal (beta) and the surface reflectivity or albedo (rho):

     Ir = 0.5 rho Ih (1-cos beta).

They further illuminate: "Surface albedo was adjusted depending on the presence
of snow cover, as indicated by the snow depth data in the NSRDB. If there was
snow on the ground the surface albedo was set to 0.6 (albedo for snow ranges
>from  about 0.35 for old snow to 0.95 for dry new snow.) If no snow was
indicated, the surface albedo was set to 0.2, a nominal value for green
vegetation and some soil types."

I live here. There is sometimes snow on the ground in December, but more often
not, I'd guess. I think it's a good idea to have a shallow reflecting pool in
front of a solar wall in this area, which will have a reflectance of about 0.6
when it's frozen (slightly higher at grazing angles), when it's cold outside,
when we need more sun, and 0.06 when unfrozen, eg in the summer, as I recall.

>Besides which this is only the value of solar energy incident on
>the vertical surface, it is NOT the amount of radiation that is received
>on the other side of the glazing.

Our single layer of 0.020" polycarbonate glazing with a nominal 92% solar
transmittance might have passed about 85% of this. The transmittance depends
on the angle. December sun rises in the SE and sets in the SW here, a swing
of about 90 degrees, and most solar heating happens around noon. Polyethylene
film has about the same solar transmission, but less greenhouse effect, ie
it is more transparent to longwave IR reradiation, which is bad. It also
costs 5 cents/ft^2, vs $1.50, and comes in rolls 40' wide, vs 4' wide. Poly
film will last a long time if it's rolled up or has some shadecloth covering
it in the summer. "IR" poly film with more greenhouse effect costs more,
looks cloudier, and blocks part of the solar IR spectrum. Prof David Meer
of Rutgers says the performance increase with IR poly should be small, at
interior temps of 70-100 F, altho it would lower the thermal loss at the
much higher temperature of an unvented greenhouse in the sun. 

>How about some tranmisssion-absorbance equations? 

You mean transmittance-absorptance equations? This isn't some academic
plaything. It's a way to stop bombing Iraq and clean up the air on this
planet, but that won't happen unless we do it a lot more, and stop treating
solar heated houses as aesthetic toys or experiments or grant opportunities.

I'd like to keep all this very simple, so even architects can understand it.
A lot of solar houses are designed very badly in this country, or really not
designed at all, from a thermal point of view, or designed with very low
standards for performance, eg a 30% solar fraction, using the PSIC guidelines,
vs the 100% solar-heated houses which Professional Engineer Norman Saunders
has been building since 1944, which also make hot water, and don't have to
be absolutely airtight or superinsulated. Most of the solar houses near me
(not many) look pretty, with "dramatic south-facing glass," but they are very
expensive custom houses, and they perform _miserably_, compared to what is
possible with better thermal design. Improving their thermal design is like
shooting fish in a bucket, using a shotgun.

It seems to me that if architects used any basic physics at all in solar
house heating design, even with numbers that were off by 50%, and a few
"oversimplifications," they could do a much better job designing solar houses
than they do now, using cookbook approaches at best, with little insight
into the physics. We made a lot of approximations in this paper, but the
result seems reasonable and conservative and not too hard to understand.

It's conservative partly because of some facts we didn't talk about. For
instance, some sun shines in the house windows during the day, and the south
wall of the house is warm during an average day, because of the sunspace, and
the sunspace collects heat on days that are statistically warmer than average
days, with more sun, and days are warmer than nights: 43 F where I live, vs
the 36 F 24 hour average temperature. We ignored all this. TMY2 simulations
I've done seem to indicate that this simplified procedure results in slightly
overdesigned houses, from a thermal point of view. All this is capable of
infinite elaboration, to make ever more perfect models that are ever more
difficult to use and understand, if you want to spend your life that way, 
and if you don't want to build anything, or see others do so.
 
>> so if Ein = Eout, then Tw = 0 + 3k/94.5 = 31.7 C. (2)
>
>Ein doesn't equal Eout,

I'd say that's a good approximation.

>this is only true if their is steady state conditions AND no thermal storage.

I'd say the same about that, but I would use the words "there" and "are."

>Your basic premises are flawed, thus invalidating the work.

Thanks for your help :-)

Our instruments will be living outdoors again this winter, in a larger box,
a 10'x 12' cabin at a youth hostel. The sunspace frame is now up and covered.
It's a quarter cylinder, about 8' tall and 8' deep and 12' wide, made with 4
curved spaced beams, each beam made with 2 12' 1x3s (costing $1.44 each :-)
with a 1x3 spacer block every 2' and some drywall screws.

There's a single layer of 0.006" greenhouse polyethylene film over that, held
in place underneath by 2 12' 1x3 cedar cap strips over the end bows, and held
down on top by a 12' piece of nylon twine stretched over the outside of the
poly between each bow, running from the peak to the ground, like a strapped
Mediterranean-style poly greenhouse, vs an American air-inflated one with two
layers of poly. It looks nice to me, like a handmade boat or an airplane.
Very light and strong. It's a bit cloudy to look through, like a translucent
shower curtain, which is also nice. Another problem with direct gain houses
is lack of privacy. There will be a shower inside the sunspace, and perhaps
a hot tub, with hot water coming from 6 plastic 55 gallon drums above the
ceiling of the cabin, sitting on top of some strengthened collar beams. The
ceiling will likely be poly film, or perhaps nothing, since there are a couple
of single pane skylights above it (a pro-malo donation from a young architect,
who also installed 52 ft^2 of single pane windows on the north and west sides
of the cabin) in the gable roof, which will be insulated underneath with 6"
of fiberglass and a poly film vapor barrier. 

And we will add on another half-cylinder greenhouse section to the east,
12' wide x 18' deep x 8' high, with 4 $3 12' 1x3 beams to the south and 4
$5 16' 1x3 beams to the north. And a $100 24'x16' shallow reflecting pond
to the south, made from a 20' wide roll of EPDM rubber roofing material,
with a shallow perimeter earth berm.

And, this morning Clint Buckwalter will start removing 2 fallen down apple
trees in front of my house and smoothing the ground for a 40' long x 16' high
x 8' deep curved lean-to poly film sunspace, and a 40' x 16' reflecting pond. 

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From madhv-s@acsu.buffalo.edu Sat Oct 26 11:20:36 EDT 1996
Article: 1349 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news-hk.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!acsu.buffalo.edu!madhv-s
From: madhv-s@acsu.buffalo.edu (Sri_G)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Vehicles
Date: 22 Oct 1996 16:44:09 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <54itkp$pee@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: achernar.cedar.buffalo.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: madhv-s


Jeremy Snyder (snyderj@imap2.asu.edu) wrote:
: Anybody know much about solar vehicles?  Design?  Efficiency?  Materials?
: Photovoltaic developments and how I can get ahold of information/ 
: developers of such technology?  Please help.

Try alt.solar.photovoltaic

-SriG
-- 
Sriganesh "SriG" Madhvanath	 | Grad student, Dept of CS, SUNY at Buffalo   
email: madhv-s@cedar.buffalo.edu | www: http://www.cs.buffalo.edu/~madhv-s


From dallas@ols.net Sat Oct 26 11:20:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1350 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!iag.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!server2.ols.net!usenet
From: dallas@ols.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Kiln
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:55:51 GMT
Organization: server2.ols.net
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <54iq55$jvb@server2.ols.net>
Reply-To: dallas@ols.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: dallas.ols.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Does anyone have information or plans to build a solar kiln for drying
wood. I am planning to build a log home and have to use pine with less
than 19% moisture shed drying will take to long. 



From gmb@twd.net Sat Oct 26 11:20:37 EDT 1996
Article: 1351 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.magicnet.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: Gene Bearer <gmb@twd.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Oven
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:59:35 -0400
Organization: M&M's
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <326D5FE7.5D66@twd.net>
Reply-To: gmb@twd.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.99.32.103
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)

I am looking for directions for having students make a solar oven in
which to cook from as a class project.  Please forward many information
that may help me to<gmb@twd.net>  Thanks!!  Gene


From david.williams@westonia.com Sat Oct 26 11:20:38 EDT 1996
Article: 1352 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!ve3ied!gts!westonia!westnews!david.williams
From: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Message-ID: <8CA5259.172400050D.uuout@westonia.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 10:01:00 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Westonia Computer Systems of Canada
Reply-To: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.3
X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.30
Lines: 21

-> When does heat gain from air temp better the loss from evaporation.
-> Rough simple approximations is all I require, but probably should
-> relate water temp to air temp rather than stuff like ..."when its a
-> warm day"... that depends if you live in Antractica or Manilla!!!!

If the *dew point* of the air is higher than the temperature of the
water in your pool, then the pool will certainly gain heat from contact
with the air. If the dew point is lower than the pool temperature, the
calculation is long and complex, involving the temperature and humidity
of the air, wind velocity (including turbulence caused by nearby
buildings) and a bunch of other things. Rather than attempt the
calculation, it would probably be a lot easier to use some sort of
experimental approach, maybe using a miniature "pool" in a jam jar, or
something of the sort, which would warm up or cool down a lot faster
than the full-size pool, so you could see what is happening quickly.
Even a "wet bulb" thermometer, in which the bulb that holds most of the
mercury or alcohol is surrounded by a damp cloth or tissue, might give
you sufficient information. If it indicates a temperature that is warmer
than the pool, take the cover off.

                              dow


From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:30 EST 1996
Article: 1353 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar spa heating arithmetic
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:47:41 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <54mmb2$690@news.pathcom.com>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <54fvul$e7j@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1353 alt.energy.renewable:18948

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>The Comfort Spa (109 Woodbine Downs, Unit 3 & 4/Etobicoke, Ontario M9W 6X1,
>(416) 213-9929) is octagonal and weighs "70 to 100 pounds." Their ad has a
>picture of 2 thin people lifting one up on top of a car. The Comfy 1 model
>fits 3 people, the Comfort Spa fits 6, and the Turbo Spa features "all of
>the latest design innovations." 

>The ad says it has a marine grade vinyl exterior, and an interior liner of
>poly tri-ply PVC reinforced with a nylon scrim, and a schedule 40 PVC frame,
>and polyethylene foam insulation, and a limited 5 year warranty. 

Nick you have completely missed the point of this product.... It's
portable, it's not meant to be kept in one place!! (it's a toy!)

>On a typical day, we might supply 6624/24 = 276 Btu/hr to the spa by pumping
>276/20 = 13.8 pounds per hour or 0.029 gpm from a drum up into the spa, with
>a 12 V 4 gpm pump running less than 1% of the time, while letting some spa
>water flow back into the drum. On a sunny day, we might pump some pondwater
>into the spa, and let it overflow on the ground, using no chemicals.

Ignorance rears its' wooden head again!

mmmmm hot pond water - let's sit here it it and watch the scum grow!!!

Did you also notice in the advertisement the bubbling water around the
two "happy owners"? It is very easy to heat something that doesn't
lose heat - like a covered well insulated - UNUSED spa. As soon a spa
owners get in and use it for 15 minutes with the jets blowing, the
heat loss goes through the roof (and everywhere else:<) . All off your
calculations are for naught. 

Please learn something more about the industry before espousing such
nonsense.

Andy McKegney C.E.T.





From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:31 EST 1996
Article: 1354 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:32:32 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <54mlek$55l@news.pathcom.com>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <54fkf7$cp5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1354 alt.energy.renewable:18949

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>The latest issue of Hubbard's Pool and Spa Marketing describes a number of 
>interesting safety covers which look like they could become R10 pool covers,
>with a little imagination...

>One interesting one is the deck-anchored "Hover Cover" from Hollenbeck
>Industries. which "creates the chararcteristic 'domed' design by using
>air-supported reinforced vinyl material over the pool surface. Air pressure
>is created by a shop vac or air compressor that is attached to a fill port
>on top of the cover. The above ground version of the Hover Cover is secured
>to the side of the pool with a cable that is threaded through grommets in 
>the cover material and tightened with a winch. Special hooks are also
>attached to each upright to ensure that no gaps are left around the cover's
>perimeter... [with] a skirt of material that hangs down inside the pool wall
>into the water, creating an air seal around the cover after it has been
>anchored."

>There's a description of the 12/91 ASTM standard for safety covers, which
>specifies that any gaps around the pool be small enough that a test object
>be unable to pass through, and that covers for pools >8' diameter or width
>support a minimum static load of 485 pounds, the combined weight of 2
>adults and 1 child in a standard rescue operation.

>There's a picture of a Hover Cover in the magazine. It looks to be about 3'
>tall in the middle, and tight as a drum, with crinkled sides, and opaque.

>Seems like this could be a nice R10 solar pool cover if it had a solid
>insulating deck for safety purposes, that sank for swimming, and a tall
>transparent vs squat opaque top, with a reflective north wall, and some
>sort of airlock door, and a lower pressure, eg 1/4" H20 (over a thousand
>pounds for a 24x36' pool), like a commercial plastic film greenhouse.

>Nick

Nick,  The cover you are refering to in the article is a winter cover.
It is designed to be used while the pool is closed for the winter
season. It is not intended that this cover be used during the swimming
season, as it is entirely impractical to remove it swim and re-install
it every day.

This idea of a solid sinking deck is really scary, as well as being
ridiculous. First it would not conform to ASTM standard you quote,
secondly it would present a real peril and safety hazard, and third
would be ridicously expensive to install and maintain.

Please, before you take a little information and draw straight line
conclusions, get a broader based knowledge of the industry you love to
belittle. (maybe read another magazine?)

Andy McKegney C.E.T.




From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:32 EST 1996
Article: 1355 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:21:38 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <54mkq7$55l@news.pathcom.com>
References: <32626271.5DAF@smtp1.laser.net> <01bbba68$081b69c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc2d$c7ed79c0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <01bbbc6b$3e88dce0$LocalHost@mlobrien> <54c5k3$cb1@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1355 alt.energy.renewable:18950

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>The latest issue of Hubbard's Pool and Spa Marketing describes a number of 
>interesting safety covers which look like they could become R10 pool covers,
>with a little imagination.

>Here's a quote from the editorial page:

>  The National Spa and Pool Institute out of Alexandria, VA provides
>  quarterly trend reports which offer insight into consumer buying trends
>  through surveys. Their first quarter report for 1996 indicated that the
>  desire by consumers in the United States to own an inground swimming pool
>  had fallen by 33.3 per cent from nine per cent of consumers surveyed in
>  October 1995, who were "very interested" in owning an inground pool, to
>  only six per cent who had a strong interest in the April 1996 survey. The
>  number of consumers interested in an above-ground pool or spa remained
>  unchanged at levels of three per cent and eleven per cent respectively. 

>  At the same time, Thom Blischok, a business consultant who recently spoke
>  at the CEO Leadership converence in Washington, sponsored by NSPI, has done
>  new research on consumer attitudes as well as industry attitudes and he
>  feels that the "disconnect" between what consumers want and what the pool
>  and spa industry is currently producing, marketing and selling creates a
>  major gap in the selling process.

>  According to Mr. Blischok, it appears that consumers see the industry as
>  price-driven, fragmented, offering no innovation and that the products
>  are of questionable quality.

>Nick

Hey Nick, I'm glad to see you made the effort to read the article I
refered you to a few postings back. Good for you.

While the article you quote is true regarding the numbers of people
interested in owning an inground pool dropped between October 1995 and
April 1996, this should hardily be a surprise! We had a record hot
summer (1995) followed by a very miserable Spring (1996) I'm surprised
the numbers weren't worse!

Regarding Mr. Blischok's observations, Again I believe this is true,
and the fact that the pool industry ignores solar pool heating is a
symptom of this malaise. (not the other way around)

Again I point out THE SOLAR POOL HEATING INDUSTRY IS NOT THE POOL
INDUSTRY!! This fact seems to continually elude you. 

I pointed out this issue of the magazine because of its' article on
solar blankets & rollers. None of these systems have the potential to
be R-10 covers - unless (and this might happen someday) someone can
come up with a flexible, waterproof, UV resistant, physically tough &
light-weight material that has a (conductive) R value of 10 in a
thickness less than half an inch. Oh, BTW,,,,,, it must also be
cheap.(less than 50 cents/ft^2).

If this magical material existed, there would be thousands of
applications - not just for pool covers!

Until then I'll still encourage pool owners to use a solar blanket and
heat their pools with a solar system (if they want to heat it at all).


PS. The vast majority of my systems go onto pools already built. If I
have the chance to talk to a pool purchaser, I do recommend energy
conservation be considered during the construction stage - proper
water drainage & insulation if they'll consider it. However most pool
companies just want to build a pool the way they have for the last 25
- 50 years.

Andy McKegney C.E.T.



From david.williams@westonia.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:33 EST 1996
Article: 1356 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!metro.atlanta.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!gts!westonia!westnews!david.williams
From: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Message-ID: <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 10:24:00 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Westonia Computer Systems of Canada
Reply-To: david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS)
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk>
X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.3
X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.30
Lines: 27

-> Obviously a fixed solar panel should face south (in northern
-> hemisphere), I would like to know what angle to the horizontal is
-> optimum for a 'flat', fixed panel (I sort of know the answer to this
-> one - I'd like some confirmation and justification).
-> In this particular case the latitude is 56 1/2 N.

Actually, due south is not always the best direction for the panel to
face. It depends on the local conditions and climate. For example, if
the site is shaded from the east, it is better to face somewhat to the
west. Also, if afternoons tend to be cloudier than mornings, which is
true in some climates, it is better for the panel to face somewhat to
the east, to take advantage of the morning sun.

As for the angle of tilt: The usual compromise is to make the panel
directly face the sun at noon on the date of the winter solstice, when
the solar declination is -23.5 degrees. This gives the panel maximum
efficiency in winter. In summertime, it will be less efficient, but this
will be offset by the greater amount of sunshine. So the tilt of the
actual panel from the horizontal should be (L + 23.5) degrees, where L
is your latitude in degrees north. The angle of elevation in which the
panel faces should be 90 degrees minus this angle of tilt.

Note that some solar installations, e.g. swimming-pool heaters, are not
intended to work in wintertime. In these cases, it is better to make the
panel point to a higher elevation, to make it more efficient in summer.

                           dow


From don't do this again Tue Nov  5 09:30:34 EST 1996
Article: 1357 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: don't do this again
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Lottery Information
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:55:16 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <54mmp9$690@news.pathcom.com>
References: <54knps$prj@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

information@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>To get information on one of the best lotteries in the world, go to......

>http://www.interlotto.li/cgi/hserver.exe?mainlot+serve=_mn_main+urlref=3300000511816


>for other information, go to....

>http://www.interllotto.com

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!
pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!

pamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspmaspamspmaspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam!!!






From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:35 EST 1996
Article: 1358 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!newsfeed1.aimnet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Photo-voltaic cells
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:51:35 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <54mmia$690@news.pathcom.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.961021171622.22918B-100000@email1.asu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts10l2.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Jeremy Snyder <snyderj@imap2.asu.edu> wrote:

>I heard a rumor about highly efficient photo-voltaics that have been 
>developed.  Does anybody know more.  Present photo-voltaics are highly 
>_inefficient_ and I want to know more about very efficient cells.  Please 
>help.

Good newsgroup to start that rumor.

The average silicon (single crystal) cell has an peak efficiency of 15
-17 %.

Laboratory samples have achieved short-term efficiencies of 35% using
exotic materials and expensive processes.

What efficiencies are you speaking of?

Andy McKegney C.E.T.



From wstewart@patriot.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:36 EST 1996
Article: 1359 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:39:22 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <32701A48.FAD@patriot.net>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-4.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)

DAVID WILLIAMS wrote:
> 
> -> Obviously a fixed solar panel should face south (in northern
> -> hemisphere), I would like to know what angle to the horizontal is
> -> optimum for a 'flat', fixed panel (I sort of know the answer to this
> -> one - I'd like some confirmation and justification).
> -> In this particular case the latitude is 56 1/2 N.
> 
> Actually, due south is not always the best direction for the panel to
> face. It depends on the local conditions and climate. For example, if
> the site is shaded from the east, it is better to face somewhat to the
> west. Also, if afternoons tend to be cloudier than mornings, which is
> true in some climates, it is better for the panel to face somewhat to
> the east, to take advantage of the morning sun.
> 
> As for the angle of tilt: The usual compromise is to make the panel
> directly face the sun at noon on the date of the winter solstice, when
> the solar declination is -23.5 degrees. This gives the panel maximum
> efficiency in winter. 

Actually, it gives the greatest efficiency on one day, the winter
solstice.
If you were to plot a curve (energy vs. angle) at different angles, the
angle with the greatest area under the curve would provide the greatest
energy input in a year's time.  

For empirical solar data in the US, see:
http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad/radiate-form.cgi

Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From sspence@castle.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:37 EST 1996
Article: 1360 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!fozzie.mercury.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!snunews.snu.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.datalytics.com!news.datasync.com!novia!arther.castle.net!usenet
From: "Steve Spence" <sspence@castle.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: 24 Oct 1996 11:44:50 GMT
Organization: The Castle Network, http://www.castle.net
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <01bbc19f$f82a4060$221ef6cd@Spence.zinsser.com>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bridge41.castle.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

you can eyeball it by aiming at the sun at noon time. check the shadow for
smallest footprint.
-- 
-------------------------
sspence@castle.net
http://www.communityweb.com/steve.html
ClubIE Team 6 Member
Team Gates Member!
http://www.teamgates.com
http://www.clubie.com
Member of The HTML Writers Guild
Member of The Microsoft Site Builder Network

gcp <gcp@taynet.co.uk> wrote in article <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk>...
> 
> This is probably in a FAQ somewhere, but I can't see one?
> 
> Obviously a fixed solar panel should face south (in northern
> hemisphere), I would like to know what angle to the horizontal is
> optimum for a 'flat', fixed panel (I sort of know the answer to this
> one - I'd like some confirmation and justification).
> In this particular case the latitude is 56 1/2 N.
> 
> (In case anyone remembers I'm planning to install one of the
> freeze-tolerant panels I mentioned some time ago!)
> 
> Gordon.
> 
> 
> 


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:38 EST 1996
Article: 1361 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: A solar hayloft
Date: 28 Oct 1996 06:12:27 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <5524er$o69@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1361 alt.energy.renewable:18966 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9776 alt.architecture.alternative:8687

A 40x32'x26' tall horse barn near Philadelphia faces southeast, with a
16' tall uninsulated gambrel roof over a concrete block wall 10' high:

 ---------------     ---                  .
|               |                    .     s    .
-----------------                          sppppp.
D<hayloft doors>D                  .      Ds      .       --- 
-----------------     26'         ..................
| . . . . . . . |                  .      .      .   .    10'
| . . . . . . . |                  .horses.      .    . <-- new sunspace
| . . . . . . . |                  .      .      .    .
.......................        ..............................

|      40'      |                  |     32'     | 12'|   16'  |

The tyrannical young horsepersons  ........D...........  .  .  . 
desire to live in the hayloft.     .       ssssss.T1  .        .
                                   .       s     ......        .
Trees T1 and T2 are now gone,      .       s     .    .  r     .
cut off about 28" above the        .       s 12' ......  e     .
ground, so tables can be           .       s     .T2  .  f     .
screwed to the tops,               .       s     ......  l  p  .
in the new sunspace.               .       s pp  .    .  e  o  .  SE ->
                                   .       s  pp ......  c  n  .
So is the large shrub S.           .       s     .    .  t  d  .
                                   .       s     ......  i     .
But lilac bush L remains,          .       s     .L   .  n     .
though pruned a bit, so far.       .       s     ......  g     . 
                                   .       s     .    .        .
Suppose we built a straw bale      .       s     ......        .
or haybale wall down the middle,   .       ssssss.    .        .
about 14' tall x 40' long, about   .......D............  .  .  .
180 bales, as an infill wall with                     S
a 2x4 framework, with another 50 bales
lining the endwalls, and another 25 bales to cover the 2' southeast kneewall,
and 640 ft^2 of new 6" fiberglass insulation for the rest of the roof, with
a poly film vapor barrier or foil underneath, 12' in from the SE wall...

Thermal storage might be a ceiling pond above the new living area,
12' wide x 40' long = 480 ft^2. How deep? The new living space
would have a total thermal conductivity of about
14x40/R50       + 2x14x12/2/R50   + 2x40/R50      + 16x40/R20 =
12, middle wall   4, endwalls       2, kneewall     32, roof  =
50 Btu/hr-F, requiring about 24hr(68F-26F)50 = 38K Btu/day to stay warm on
an average 36 F December day in Philadelphia, PA. On the order of 1/3 of a
cubic foot of wood per day, if a 4x4x8' cord contains the heat equivalent
of 100 gallons of oil.

We need 5 x 38K = 190 K Btu of stored solar heat for 5 cloudy days in a row.
If the pond were 110 F on an average day, each cubic foot of water would
store about 64(110-80) = 2000 Btu of usable space heat, so the pond needs
to be 190K/480/2000 = 0.2' deep, about 3". Or we could cover the loft area
with waterbed matresses on top of an EPDM rubber liner. Or use 190K/30/500
= 13 55 gallon drums full of water or 150 5 gallon plastic drywall or paint
pails, with lids, in a more compact heat store configuration with a lower and
more desirable envelope surface to volume ratio. A ceiling fan with a
thermostat might bring down heat to the living area, as needed. The water
might also serve for hot showers, and as a sprinkler system, in case of fire.

The floor could use a vapor barrier underneath (but no insulation, perhaps)
to reduce le parfum des chevaux, and serve as a return path for living space
air that flows into the sunspace on a sunny December day. The sunspace might
be built with 9 curved beams on 5' centers, each made from 2 $2 16' 1x3s with
1x3 spacers every 2', held together with drywall or deck screws, attached to
a 2x4 under the eaves, and wedged between the wall and pressure treated 2x4s
spiked to the ground through holes with 40" of 1/2" reinforcing rod every 5'.
The sunspace frame might be covered with a single piece of greenhouse UV
polyethylene film, 40' long x 16' wide, costing $32, which might be rolled up
in the summer to make it last longer and keep the sunspace cooler. The east
endwall might be white painted poly or an insulated wall, since no sun would
enter it from the east in December. Poly film wind fatigue might be reduced
by strapping it down in the winter with some stretched 1/8" nylon ropes over
the film between the curved wooden beams, following the eave to ground arc.

The sunspace would have a layer of greenhouse shadecloth spaced a few inches
away from the block wall, to keep the sun from hitting the block wall, so
the block wall stores less solar heat during the day, and wastes less heat
at night, back out through the glazing. This would also keep the barn cooler
in summertime. The upper part of the shadecloth might have another layer of
glazing or shadecloth a few inches to the south, to increase the air temp
above the average sunspace temp. Air might ideally flow in a figure 8 during
the day, clockwise below and counterclockwise above, in SW elevation, from
(1) north of the shadecloth up through some ductlike rafter spaces insulated
with foamboard or foil, through the loft area (2), then back down under the
floor (3), then out into the sunspace (4), south of the shadecloth, then
north and sideways through the shadecloth (5), then up through the rafter
channels and back into the loft area again (1). 

                 .
            .     s   .
         .        s      .
                  s <-- 2   
        .    ---  sppppppp.
                  s
       .      8' Ds        .      
                 Ds
      .....................^.      ---                       sun
        .        .  3-->  .1 .                           
        .        .        .^  .    10' 
        .        .        .| 4 .
        . horses .        .     . <-- new sunspace
        .        .        .<-5   .
        .        .        .      .
      .................................

An approximate calculation for loft water temp: the sunspace gains about
1000 Btu/ft^2/day, ie about 400K Btu/day, and loses about 6hr(90-36)400ft^2/R1
= 130K Btu of heat through the SE glazing, and an equal amount through the
block wall, perhaps (some of which might be insulated on the outside, under 
the shadecloth), leaving a net gain of about 140K Btu on an average December
day, of which 38K is needed to keep the living space warm, leaving about 100K
Btu/day. If the main heat loss from the loft area is through the R20 roof,
then 24hr(T-36)640ft^2/R20 = 100K Btu, where T is the average water temp,
so T = 36 + 100K/(24x640/20) = 130 F. Lovely.

Nick

None of us let reality interfere with our thinking   --Dan Gottlieb



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:38 EST 1996
Article: 1363 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 30 Oct 1996 09:21:34 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <557o9e$db8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <8CA5259.172400050D.uuout@westonia.com> <54tr07$nrn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <556gjc$8mc@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1363 alt.energy.renewable:18975 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9855

Andrew McKegney, "C. E. T" <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>The practical answer is very simple.

And in your case, wrong.

>If the sun is shining on your pool and 1.) it is not windy 2.) the air
>temperature is no more than 5 degrees cooler than the pool, you will
>probably  do better to leave the cover off of the pool.

That may work on your planet, Andy, but on an average day in Philadelphia
in October, "solar covers" should be on pools until the still air warms up
to less than 0.04 F cooler than the pool, approximately, a temperature
difference 125 times smaller than 5 degrees (F?). I posted that calculation.
Perhaps you didn't read it, or understand it, or believe it. 

>This is not rocket science, although you can turn it into that if you
>are trying to optimize for the last BTU.

Some people can. Others try to simplify these calculations. C. E. T.s
apparently just pretend they know what they are talking about, and shoot
>from  the hip, with answers that are wrong by more than 2 orders of magnitude.

Nick

With maturity comes the desire for simplicity   --Bela Bartok(?)



From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:39 EST 1996
Article: 1364 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!n1ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:58:35 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <558k33$ir@news.pathcom.com>
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <8CA5259.172400050D.uuout@westonia.com> <54tr07$nrn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <556gjc$8mc@news.pathcom.com> <557o9e$db8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts3l3.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1364 alt.energy.renewable:18976 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9880

nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney, "C. E. T" <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:

>>The practical answer is very simple.

>>If the sun is shining on your pool and 1.) it is not windy 2.) the air
>>temperature is no more than 5 degrees cooler than the pool, you will
>>probably  do better to leave the cover off of the pool.

>That may work on your planet, Andy, but on an average day in Philadelphia
>in October, "solar covers" should be on pools until the still air warms up
>to less than 0.04 F cooler than the pool, approximately, a temperature
>difference 125 times smaller than 5 degrees (F?). I posted that calculation.
>Perhaps you didn't read it, or understand it, or believe it. 

As usual , you jump in not knowing what the hell you are talking about
Nick. You insist on trying to turn a simple approximation into an
exact science. You have not made any allowance for the fact that
having a blanket on the pool blocks between 50 % and 100% (depending
upon the blanket) of the incident sunshine. The biggest factor you
don't even take into consideration in your calculations --- the wind!!

When it comes to answering questions about pool heating with solar you
should keep your ----- nose out of it.

>>This is not rocket science, although you can turn it into that if you
>>are trying to optimize for the last BTU.

And Nick tries to do this to make himself look like an authority, when
he knows NOTHING (by his own admission) about operating or heating a
swimming pool.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.

Beware of those calling themselves experts




From wstewart@patriot.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:40 EST 1996
Article: 1365 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Gee, somebody actually read our paper...
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:27:43 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <3270178E.96D@patriot.net>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-4.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1365 alt.energy.renewable:18979 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9888

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> >> Consider a 1 m cubical solar closet (Fig. 1A) sitting outdoors on an
> >> average 0 C December day near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. The
> >> south wall of the closet, i.e., the solar air heater, receives about 3
> >> kWh/m^2/day of solar heat, i.e. Ein = 3 kWh/day, more if there is snow
> >> on the ground or a white surface or a shallow frozen reflecting pool
> >> in front...
> 
> >This value is closer to 2.7 kWh/day and that is with a snow covered ground.
> 
> Let's see. The NREL _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and
> Concentrating Collectors_ (printed with a renewable source ink on paper
> containing at least 50% wastepaper :-) says the 24 hour average December air
> temperature in Philadelphia over the last 30 years has been 2.1 C, not 0 C,
> with a daytime high of 6.3 C. The nice folks at NREL say the average amount
> of sun that has fallen on south walls for the last 30 years in December in
> Phila has been 2.9 kWh/m^2/day, 1.8 min, 3.6 max, with an uncertainty of
> +/-11%, and a standard deviation of 7.3%, given a 20% ground reflectivity,
> using the Perez model (Perez, R.; Ineichen, P.; Seals, R.; Michalsky, J.;
> Stewart, Will. (1990), "Modeling daylight availability and irradiance
> components from direct and global irradiance." Solar Energy, 44(5),
> pp. 271-289.)

Original data from the
"Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and Concentration
Collectors"
NREL/TP-463-5607 DE93018229

December:

Solar Radiation, kWh/m^2/day Percentage Uncertainty: 11
Avg. 3.1  Min. 2.8  Max 3.4

Temperature
Daily Min
(deg C)   -2.2   

Daily Max
(deg C)    6.3 

Wind Spd.
 (m/s)     4.5

> Our single layer of 0.020" polycarbonate glazing with a nominal 92% solar
> transmittance might have passed about 85% of this. 

What do you base this estimate on?

> >How about some tranmisssion-absorbance equations?
 
> You mean transmittance-absorptance equations? This isn't some academic
> plaything. It's a way to stop bombing Iraq and clean up the air on this
> planet, but that won't happen unless we do it a lot more, and stop treating
> solar heated houses as aesthetic toys or experiments or grant opportunities.

????
 
> I'd like to keep all this very simple, so even architects can understand it.
> A lot of solar houses are designed very badly in this country, or really not
> designed at all, from a thermal point of view, or designed with very low
> standards for performance, eg a 30% solar fraction, using the PSIC guidelines,

Uh-oh, he's at it again.  Nick Pine is the world authority and everybody
else is wrong...
 
> It seems to me that if architects used any basic physics at all in solar
> house heating design, even with numbers that were off by 50%, and a few
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> "oversimplifications," they could do a much better job designing solar houses
> than they do now, using cookbook approaches at best, with little insight
> into the physics. We made a lot of approximations in this paper, but the
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> result seems reasonable and conservative and not too hard to understand.

This should give everyone an idea of the precision of the paper.

> >> so if Ein = Eout, then Tw = 0 + 3k/94.5 = 31.7 C. (2)
> >
> >Ein doesn't equal Eout,
> 
> I'd say that's a good approximation.
> 
> >this is only true if their is steady state conditions AND no thermal storage.
> 
> I'd say the same about that, but I would use the words "there" and "are."
> 
> >Your basic premises are flawed, thus invalidating the work.

Perhaps a introductory course in thermodynamics can help in the use of
thermodynamic formulas...
 
> Our instruments will be living outdoors again this winter, in a larger box,
> a 10'x 12' cabin at a youth hostel. The sunspace frame is now up and covered.
> It's a quarter cylinder, about 8' tall and 8' deep and 12' wide, made with 4
> curved spaced beams, each beam made with 2 12' 1x3s (costing $1.44 each :-)
> with a 1x3 spacer block every 2' and some drywall screws.

What is your data logging strategy, assuming you are going to collect
empirical data to support your assertions?

Cheers,

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:41 EST 1996
Article: 1366 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 31 Oct 1996 11:38:26 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <55akm2$60@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <556gjc$8mc@news.pathcom.com> <557o9e$db8@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <558k33$ir@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1366 alt.energy.renewable:18980 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9892

Andrew McKegney, "C. E. T" <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>>>If the sun is shining on your pool and 1.) it is not windy 2.) the air
>>>temperature is no more than 5 degrees cooler than the pool, you will
>>>probably  do better to leave the cover off of the pool.
 
>As usual , you jump in not knowing what the hell you are talking about Nick.

A curious thought, from you.

>You insist on trying to turn a simple approximation into an exact science.

No, but I like to use a little science...
You seem to favour the Wild-Ass-Guess (WAG, vs SWAG) technique.

>You have not made any allowance for the fact that
>having a blanket on the pool blocks between 50 % and 100% (depending
>upon the blanket) of the incident sunshine. The biggest factor you
>don't even take into consideration in your calculations --- the wind!!

Let's look again, shall we?

>>That may work on your planet, Andy, but on an average day in Philadelphia
>>in October, "solar covers" should be on pools until the still air warms up
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                              ^^^^^^^^^
>>to less than 0.04 F cooler than the pool, approximately...

A typical "solar cover" might pass 80% of the sun, blocking only 20%, and
might add R1 to the pool surface thermal resistance. Taking that cover off
would add 20% to the solar input and subtract R1 from the thermal resistance,
which might cancel out if the air were cooler than the pool, were it not for
the enormous effect of evaporation, which can make the effective thermal
conductance 50 times higher than an R1 pool cover. 

>...Nick tries to do this to make himself look like an authority...

No. I try to do this to understand how the world works, and help improve it. 

>when he knows NOTHING (by his own admission) about operating or heating a
>swimming pool.

Sometimes knowing nothing is better than "knowing" something :-)

>Beware of those calling themselves experts

Amen.

Nick



From maureen@ez2.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:42 EST 1996
Article: 1367 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet
From: Maureen & Dale Smith <maureen@ez2.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Jacuzzi
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 21:55:43 -0700
Organization: Sundance Properties & Air Wave Communications
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <327199CF.3987@ez2.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.191.23
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U)

We're digging our jacuzzi up to repair it and convert it to solar power. 
 The estimate for the pipes is about 1500$.  Is this something we could 
easily do ourselves?  We do the digging and the money is just for the 
pipes and solar stuff?  could we buy something for cheaper and install it 
ourselves?

Maureen


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:43 EST 1996
Article: 1368 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Gee, somebody actually read our paper...
Date: 26 Oct 1996 09:25:34 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <54t3ge$1fv@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1368 alt.energy.renewable:18992 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9925

Will Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:
>Nick Pine wrote:
 
>> >> Consider a 1 m cubical solar closet (Fig. 1A) sitting outdoors on an
>> >> average 0 C December day near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. The
>> >> south wall of the closet, i.e., the solar air heater, receives about 3
>> >> kWh/m^2/day of solar heat, i.e. Ein = 3 kWh/day, more if there is snow
>> >> on the ground or a white surface or a shallow frozen reflecting pool
>> >> in front...
 
>> >This value is closer to 2.7 kWh/day and that is with a snow covered ground.
 
>> Let's see. The NREL _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and
>> Concentrating Collectors_ (printed with a renewable source ink on paper
>> containing at least 50% wastepaper :-) says the 24 hour average December air
>> temperature in Philadelphia over the last 30 years has been 2.1 C, not 0 C,
>> with a daytime high of 6.3 C. The nice folks at NREL say the average amount
>> of sun that has fallen on south walls for the last 30 years in December in
>> Phila has been 2.9 kWh/m^2/day, 1.8 min, 3.6 max, with an uncertainty of
>> +/-11%, and a standard deviation of 7.3%, given a 20% ground reflectivity,
>> using the Perez model (Perez, R.; Ineichen, P.; Seals, R.; Michalsky, J.;
>> Stewart, Will. (1990), "Modeling daylight availability and irradiance
>> components from direct and global irradiance." Solar Energy, 44(5),
>> pp. 271-289.)

Oops, I seem to have made a mistake in this paragraph. The last author was
Stewart, R., not Stewart, Will. 
 
>Original data from the
>"Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and Concentration
>Collectors"
>NREL/TP-463-5607 DE93018229
>
>December:
>                                                     [+/-]
>Solar Radiation, kWh/m^2/day Percentage Uncertainty:^11
>Avg. 3.1  Min. 2.8  Max 3.4                       

Yes Will, for a south-facing collector at a tilt of latitude + 15 degrees, in
Philadelphia, unlike the vertical window above, which gets 2.9 kWh/m^2/day as
I wrote, with a ground reflectance of close to 20%, vs higher snow or ice or
concrete or white pebble or white plastic deckboard or paint reflectances.

>> Our single layer of 0.020" polycarbonate glazing with a nominal 92% solar
>> transmittance might have passed about 85% of this. 
>
>What do you base this estimate on?

It's a guess. You might call it Engineering Judgement. I wouldn't.
Perhaps you'd like to work out a more exact answer, and post it.

>>Our instruments will be living outdoors again this winter, in a larger box,
>>a 10'x 12' cabin at a youth hostel. The sunspace frame is now up and covered.
>>It's a quarter cylinder, about 8' tall and 8' deep and 12' wide, made with 4
>>curved spaced beams, each beam made with 2 12' 1x3s (costing $1.44 each :-)
>>with a 1x3 spacer block every 2' and some drywall screws.
 
>What is your data logging strategy, assuming you are going to collect
>empirical data to support your assertions?

Same as last winter. We will use our $2500 Lambert data logger/controller with
easy help menus and data collection screens and non-volatile data and program
memories, and a 19.2 modem, to collect data continuously and record averages
every 5 minutes from sensors for the amount of sun, wind, and 6 temperatures.
One more this winter, for solar DHW. The controller section will again drive
solid state relays to open and close motorized dampers, etc, and it will also
measure the total electrical power used in the structure, including its own,
an average total power consumption of about 11 watts. We will download the
data every few days and play with it, using spreadsheets and other computer
programs, with occasional changes to control algorithms and configurations,
And we will probably write another paper. We might let other people call up 
the data logger too, if we like them.

Cheers,

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:44 EST 1996
Article: 1369 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Bending wood with steam
Date: 26 Oct 1996 09:39:27 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <54t4af$1jq@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: A better way to make curved 1x3 beams for plastic film sunspaces?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1369 alt.energy.renewable:18994 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9927

"Brendan A. Niemira" <niemirab@PILOT.MSU.EDU> writes:

>I seem to recall... a simple steam tank that is used to make wood really
>pliable.  Basically, a pipe (or round air duct, I forget which), about 12"
>in diameter, is attached to a steam source at one end, a removable cap at
>the other and wrapped in insulation.  Slats (for the boat hull) are piled in
>the pipe, and steamed for a long time (24h? 36?).  These are removed and
>bent to the proper shape while hot; as they cool, they get quite rigid.

Thanks for the tip, Brendan. I'm trying to think how to do this. Seems like a
steel 55 gallon drum on its side with a wood fire underneath might make a good
steam generator, with 6 more deheaded steel drums in series, all bolted or
welded together and surrounded by strawbales or leaves. Grainger's $55 1A122
steel drum deheader looks like a large can opener... 7 drums and 48 bales... 

                                   21'

                    bale   bale   bale   bale   bale   bale
            ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
           |                                                | 2'
            ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
  _________  fire   bale   bale   bale   bale   bale   bale _____________

           cross section:      

                          |   --~52"--   |

                           ---- ---- ----  --- ~52"
                          |    |    |    |
                          |     ----     | --- ~38"
                           -- /      \ --
                          |  |        |  |
                          |   \      /   |
                           ---- ---- ----  --- ~14"
                          |    |    |    |    
                          |    |    |    |    
                  -------- ---- ---- ---- --------

But it seems simpler to just use one drum, and make the steam chamber a
strawbale trench lined with EPDM rubber, like this... 

           cross section, not to scale:      

                          |   --~54"--   |
                             | - 36"- |      
                              --------     --- ~42"
                             |sideways|    
                             |  bale  |    (quantity 16'/18" ~ 12)
                              -------- 
                                rebbure 
                              plywood b
                           rubber  erub   
                           ---- u  b ----  --- ~28"    
                          |    |b  b|    |              endwise bales
                          |    |beru|    |              (quantity 4x
                           ---- ---- ----  --- ~14"     16'/36" ~ 22)
                          |    |    |    |    
                          |    |    |    |    
                  -------- ---- ---- ---- --------

The sheet of rubber has to be at least 46" wide, and 16' + 14" + 14" long,
so a 10' wide x 20' long sheet of rubber roofing material would allow bending
1x3s up to 16' long, with 2 sheets of plywood or some strings stretched across
the top, and about 40 straw or haybales around it, and all this could be taken
apart and reused, or left in place, with the rubber draped over the top and a
poly film vapor barrier between the strawbales and the ground. 

The screw-in plugs in the drums (bungs) are about 2" diameter, but US Plastics
("GOD is our Partner!") and others sell bungs with smaller threaded holes in
the middle, and plumbing supply stores have bulkhead male garden hose fittings
that screw into the smaller hole in the bung, to get the low-pressure steam
>from  the drum in the fire to the trench, via a hot water garden hose (?) with
the other open end inside the trench. If something plugged up, the garden hose
would likely pop before the drum exploded.

But if the drum had a fiberglass insulation cozy on top, it might lose about
25ft^2/R20 x (212-52) = 200 Btu/hr, and the trench surrounded by 85 ft^2 of
R50 strawbales might lose another 85ft^2/R50 x (212-53) = 300 Btu/hr, so the
whole thing might use 1/2 pound of water per hour, or 12 pounds of water or
1.5 gallons in 24 hours, since it takes about 1,000 Btu to evaporate a pound 
of water (or 144 Btu, if you come from Andy M's planet.)

So the steam generator might be an electric teakettle, or a bucket of water
with an immersion heater sitting inside the trench, controlled by a 190 F
thermostat at the other end of the trench. We might restack the bales later
and make a sauna.

Nick

Confusion is like fertilizer:
it feels like shit, but nothing grows without it. 
                                                    --Carl Whittaker



From joefoor@digitalexp.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:45 EST 1996
Article: 1370 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.cntfl.com!dial-08.marianna.fl.digitalexp.com!joefoor
From: joefoor@digitalexp.com (Joe Foor)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Bending wood with steam
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:02:26
Organization: CMDS News machine
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <joefoor.10.00010A77@digitalexp.com>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net> <54t4af$1jq@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-08.marianna.fl.digitalexp.com
Summary: A better way to make curved 1x3 beams for plastic film sunspaces?
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1370 alt.energy.renewable:19001 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9948

In article <54t4af$1jq@ufo.ee.vill.edu> nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:

>"Brendan A. Niemira" <niemirab@PILOT.MSU.EDU> writes:

>>I seem to recall... a simple steam tank that is used to make wood really
>>pliable.  Basically, a pipe (or round air duct, I forget which), about 12"
>>in diameter, is attached to a steam source at one end, a removable cap at
>>the other and wrapped in insulation.  Slats (for the boat hull) are piled in
>>the pipe, and steamed for a long time (24h? 36?).  These are removed and
>>bent to the proper shape while hot; as they cool, they get quite rigid.

>Thanks for the tip, Brendan. I'm trying to think how to do this. Seems like a
>steel 55 gallon drum on its side with a wood fire underneath might make a good
>steam generator, with 6 more deheaded steel drums in series, all bolted or
>welded together and surrounded by strawbales or leaves. Grainger's $55 1A122
>steel drum deheader looks like a large can opener... 7 drums and 48 bales... 

  <snip>

>The sheet of rubber has to be at least 46" wide, and 16' + 14" + 14" long,
>so a 10' wide x 20' long sheet of rubber roofing material would allow bending
>1x3s up to 16' long, with 2 sheets of plywood or some strings stretched across
>the top, and about 40 straw or haybales around it, and all this could be taken
>apart and reused, or left in place, with the rubber draped over the top and a
>poly film vapor barrier between the strawbales and the ground. 

I saw a steamer thrown together in about twenty minutes once. 

It was made of one inch closed cell rigid foam insulation with a foil 
barrier on one side. 

The foam was cut down the middle, then two strips about two inches wide were 
cut from each edge. The pieces were assembled with the wide oieces separated 
at the edges by the two narrow strips, creating a rectangular enclosure 2" 
by 16" inside and as long as the foam sheet. several of these were assembled 
end to end, with all joints taped with metallic duct tape. 

The foil barrier on the inside, kept the steam from penetrating the foam. The 
steam was fed in one end and the wood went in the other end. Both ends were 
loosely plugged with pieces of foam.

It worked just fine.

regards,
Joe



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:46 EST 1996
Article: 1371 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Bending wood with steam
Date: 2 Nov 1996 10:31:44 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <55fph0$sll@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net> <54t4af$1jq@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <joefoor.10.00010A77@digitalexp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1371 alt.energy.renewable:19003 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9952

Joe Foor <joefoor@digitalexp.com> wrote:

>I saw a steamer thrown together in about twenty minutes once. 
>
>It was made of one inch closed cell rigid foam insulation with a foil 
>barrier on one side. 
>
>The foam was cut down the middle, then two strips about two inches wide were 
>cut from each edge. The pieces were assembled with the wide oieces separated 
>at the edges by the two narrow strips, creating a rectangular enclosure 2" 
>by 16" inside and as long as the foam sheet. several of these were assembled 
>end to end, with all joints taped with metallic duct tape. 

Sounds nice :-) What was the steam generator?

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:46 EST 1996
Article: 1372 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: A vacuum-stabilized plastic film wall-warmer
Date: 2 Nov 1996 10:52:40 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <55fqo8$sr0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1372 alt.energy.renewable:19004 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9953

Our local paper, the Collegeville Independent, ("Accept and defend the truth
whatever the source!" :-) has a lovely 32' long x 20' high south-facing wall
with about 120 ft^2 of windows, and last June they wanted to save something
like 300 Btu/hr/ft^2 (peak sun) x 120 ft^2 = 36K Btu/hr of peak AC (7 window
ACs) by covering the wall with a $130 piece of greenhouse shadecloth. They
wanted barn red, to match the building, and there was a mill delay, but it
should be here soon. This winter they may try a vacuum-stabilized wall-warmer
for solar heating, about 750 Btu/ft^2/day max, net, in December, or the heat
equivalent of about 5 gallons of oil/day. The current plan: 

1. Put a 2x4 frame on edge around the wall perimeter, seal the inside edge
   with a can of spray foam caulk, and paint it red.
2. Screw hooks into the inside the frame an inch away from the wall every 4',
   and hang a 32' wide x 20' tall piece of 57% red shadecloth on the hooks.
3. Install window fans with in 1 or 2 upstairs windows, with controls to
   turn on the fans if it is windy OR if the sun is shining and the building
   needs heat.
4. Add transparent motorized dampers with Honeywell 6161B1000 $50 2 watt motors
   to 1 or 2 lower windows, that open when the sun is shining and the building
   needs heat.
5. Screw in more hooks 2.5" away from the wall, and make a 4' 14 gauge
   galvanized wire grid using those hooks.
6. Attach 4 small pulleys under the soffit, and hang 40' of #3 (1/8") nylon
   twine from each of 4 of the hooks, starting 4' from the end of the wall.
   Later, thread the ends of the twine through 4 holes in the top of the wall,
   into the building (or use 60' of twine for each hook, and run the ends of
   the twine back down to ground level cleats on the outside.) 
7. Staple a $32, 32' wide x 20' tall piece of 6 mil UV polyethylene film onto
   the face of the frame at the top, and screw on a 32' 1x3 cedar cap strip.
8. Attach 20' of cedar 1x3 cap strips over the poly on the east and west
   vertical sides of the frame, using hinges so the strips can fold out and
   away from the frame to the east and west. 
9. Make a cedar 1x3 sandwich for the bottom of the film, and screw it onto
   the bottom 2x4, letting the 4 20' pieces of twine hang out below.  
10.Thread the twine through the pulleys and into the building or back down
   to the bottom of the frame. 

Operation:

In the winter, when the sun is shining and the building needs heat, the
damper(s) open and fan(s) turn on to move air out from the building into the
"sunspace" at the bottom, through the shadecloth and back into the building
at the top. When it is windy, and the building does not need heat, or there
is no sun, the fan(s) turn on with the dampers closed, to make a vacuum of
about 0.25" H20 (about 0.001 psi or 1 psf) to pull the poly film in against
the wire grid and keep it from flexing and fatiguing in the wind. The twines
over the outside also help prevent the wind from making the film balloon out.

In the summer, unscrew the bottom 1x3 poly sandwich and fold the cedar cap
strips on the side away from the frame, and roll up the poly film until it
rests under the soffit, with the sandwich at the bottom of the U-shaped
twine, to make it last longer and allow the shadecloth keep the wall cooler. 

The wall itself needs to be made fairly airtight to make this work.

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:47 EST 1996
Article: 1373 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: A vacuum-stabilized plastic film wall-warmer
Date: 2 Nov 1996 13:39:41 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <55g4hd$rc@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55fqo8$sr0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: an update, slightly simpler
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1373 alt.energy.renewable:19007 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9956 alt.architecture.alternative:8704

Our local paper, the Collegeville Independent, ("Accept and defend the truth
whatever the source!") has a lovely 32' long x 20' high south-facing wall with
about 120 ft^2 of windows. Last June they wanted to save on the order of
300 Btu/hr/ft^2 (peak sun) x 120 ft^2 = 36K Btu/hr of peak AC (7 window ACs)
by covering the wall with a $130 piece of PAK greenhouse shadecloth, with a
perimeter hem and grommets every 4', available from Stuppy at (800) 977-5025.
The shadecloth was to be barn red, to match the building. There was a mill
delay, but it should be here soon. This winter we may try a vacuum-stabilized
wall-warmer for solar heating, yielding about 750 Btu/ft^2/day max in December,
or the heat equivalent of about 5 gallons of oil. The current plan is: 

1. Put a 2x4 frame on edge around the wall perimeter, seal the inside edge
   with a can of spray foam caulk, and paint it red.
2. Screw 9 hooks inside the upper frame 2.5" away from the wall every 4', and
   hang a 32' wide x 20' tall piece of 57% red shadecloth on the hooks.
3. Install window fans in 1 or 2 upstairs windows, with controls to turn them
   on if it is windy OR the sun is shining and the building needs heat.
4. Add transparent motorized dampers with Honeywell 6161B1000 $50 2 watt motors
   to 1 or 2 lower windows, open when there is sun and office heat is needed.
5. Screw 9 more hooks on 4' centers inside the lower frame, 1" away from the
   wall, and attach the bottom edge of the shadecloth to the lower hooks.
6. Attach 4 small pulleys under the eave, and hang 40' of #3 (1/8") nylon
   twine from each of 7 upper hooks, starting 4' from the end of the wall.
   Later, thread the ends of the twine through 4 holes in the top of the wall,
   into the building (or alternatively, use 60' of twine for each hook, and
   run the ends of the twine back down to ground level cleats on the outside.) 
7. Staple a $32, 32' wide x 20' tall piece of 6 mil UV polyethylene film onto
   the face of the frame at the top, and screw on 32' of 1x3 cedar cap strip.
8. Attach 20' of cedar 1x3 cap strips over the poly on the south edges of the
   vertical sides of the frame, screwed in place, with hinges so the strips
   can fold out and away from the frame to the east and west, for summer. 
9. Make a 32' cedar 1x3 sandwich for the bottom of the film, and screw it onto
   the bottom 2x4, letting the 7 20' or 40' pieces of twine hang out below.  
10.Thread the twine through the pulleys and into the building or back down
   to the bottom of the frame. 

It would look like this from the west, not to scale:

           |            3.5"            |

.  pulley . . . . . .  inside twine  . . . . . . > .  ___
o  .       | hook                       |   
u  .       | . \       ==>             fan ==>
t  .       | .   s                      |   
s  .       p .     h                    |   
i  .       o .       a                  |                     office
d  ^       l .         d                |   
e  .       y .           e              |             20'
.  .       | .             c            |   
t  .       f .               l          |   
w  .       i .                 o        |   
i  .       l .                   t      |   
n  .       m .         <==         h    |   
e  .       | .                       \ damper <==
.  . < . . | . _ _ _ _ 2 x 4 _ _ _ _hook|             ___
           
Operation:

In the winter, when the sun is shining and the building needs heat, the
damper(s) open and fan(s) turn on to move air out from the building into the
"sunspace" at the bottom, through the shadecloth and back into the building
at the top. When it is windy, and the building does not need heat, or there
is no sun, the fan(s) turn on with the dampers closed, to make a vacuum of
about 0.25" H20 (about 0.001 psi or 1 psf) to pull the poly film in against
the twine inside the frame and keep it from flexing and fatiguing in the wind.
The outside twines help prevent the wind from making the film balloon out.

In the summer, unscrew the bottom 1x3 poly sandwich and fold the cedar cap
strips on the side away from the frame, and roll up the poly film until it
rests under the eave, with the sandwich supported by the U-shaped twines,
to the poly film last longer and allow the shadecloth keep the wall cooler. 

The wall itself needs to be made fairly airtight to make this work.

Nick



From gcp@taynet.co.uk Tue Nov  5 09:30:48 EST 1996
Article: 1374 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:52:29 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <550lf1$mb0@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com> <32701A48.FAD@patriot.net> <550ij6$lr5@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port36.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp) wrote:

>Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>>For empirical solar data in the US, see:
>>http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad/radiate-form.cgi
>I'll check this out.
>It might be good enough, thanks.

Unfortunately the site only gives options of:
0 degrees
lat. -15
latitude
lat. +15 
90 degrees

They do give how to work it out, but you need more data than I have!
It would _seem_ though that it is not that sensitive and approx. +15
Would be OK 
I have to say I knew this already  :-)

(if this was the case then interestingly a terahedral 
support would provide near optimum support for either pv or thermal
at my latitude - nice coincidence :-)
I'd like to know if it's worth the effort to try and improve on this!

Gordon.



From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Tue Nov  5 09:30:49 EST 1996
Article: 1375 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.mira.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Looking for Info on Pool Solar Heating in NJ
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 19:56:15 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <54tqgq$nht@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <54glg5$ikf@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am still reading this with interest, but remember I live in brisbane
, Australia where it NEVER freezes!
I am pretty sure I am gonna try this setup with the poly pipes!
A couple of questions remain....
The pool pump (1.5HP) will have to lift the water to the roof (about
20ft) - will it have enough or too much pressure for a 1000 ft run of
polypiping? I am going to try one coil initially to see how i go. Can
I use the plastic securers (that you get in the garden/ hardware
shops)over the pipe barbed interconnectors or should I use metal
clamps?

What difference does it make to the system if there is gate or ball
valve somewhere after the pump but before the solar collector?
These restrict the diameter of whatever pipe they are put on. What
does it do to pressure vs flow??? Are they really necessary?
Won't the pump be struggling against this restriction since it has a
fixed output rate??? Does this harm the pump?
But better than blowing all the joins (not that there will be too
many) and having water all over my roof!
(My currnet pump runs from 40-100 psi depending on how dirty the
filter is!)
Does it really make any difference (to pressure, flow etc)where I make
the first join from the pvc 50mm PVC pipe (from the pump outlet) to
the 19mm black poly pipe.
A restriction is a resriction !!! 
It is a lot easier for me to do this join at ground level near the
pump and then run the black poly up to the roof coil and back to the
pool. It is a lot harder (i.e. more work and money) to run the 50mm
pvc pipe up onto the roof and then make the connection to the coil. If
that makes a big difference to efficiency etc can someone tell me how?



From mhamon@ccnet.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:50 EST 1996
Article: 1376 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.cerf.net!ccnet.com!usenet
From: mhamon@ccnet.com (Marvin Hamon)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Oven
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:38:02 -0700
Organization: Hamon Consulting
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <MPG.cd8a09445d8b89d989680@news.ccnet.com>
References: <326D5FE7.5D66@twd.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: h97-158.ccnet.com
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v1.01 (30 Day Trial)

In article <326D5FE7.5D66@twd.net>, gmb@twd.net says...
> I am looking for directions for having students make a solar oven in
> which to cook from as a class project.  Please forward many information
> that may help me to<gmb@twd.net>  Thanks!!  Gene
> 

I would recommend "Cooking with the Sun" by Beth Halacy and Dan Halacy. 
It gives a good background in how solar ovens work and instructions on 
building simple ovens that I think would work out well for a class 
project. It even covers cooking tips and gives recipes.

I also found quite a few web sites with information on solar ovens when I 
did a search on one of the web search engines.

I hope this helps.

Marvin Hamon
mhamon@ccnet.com


From gcp@taynet.co.uk Tue Nov  5 09:30:51 EST 1996
Article: 1377 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:03:27 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <550ij6$lr5@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com> <32701A48.FAD@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port36.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

>DAVID WILLIAMS wrote:

>> -> I would like to know what angle to the horizontal is
>> -> optimum for a 'flat', fixed panel 

>> Actually, due south is not always the best direction for the panel to
>> face. It depends on the local conditions and climate. For example, if
>> the site is shaded from the east, it is better to face somewhat to the
>> west. Also, if afternoons tend to be cloudier than mornings, which is
>> true in some climates, it is better for the panel to face somewhat to
>> the east, to take advantage of the morning sun.
I don't think the weather here is that predictable  :-)
Angle will also depend on whether the panel is only efficient for
direct sunlight, or as in more modern designs is able to make good use
of scattered light.
>> As for the angle of tilt: The usual compromise is to make the panel
>> directly face the sun at noon on the date of the winter solstice, when
>> the solar declination is -23.5 degrees. This gives the panel maximum
>> efficiency in winter. 

>Actually, it gives the greatest efficiency on one day, the winter
>solstice.
At noon  :-)
But it may not be  far out.

I've seen other compromises that suggest latitude -15 or -10 degrees
This is probably quite good, but if you think about it, it is
probably designed for mid (US?) latitudes.
>If you were to plot a curve (energy vs. angle) at different angles, the
>angle with the greatest area under the curve would provide the greatest
>energy input in a year's time.  
Plus, if you're being comprehensive, a demand curve.
But this is what I was after Will,
_only I'd hoped somebody would have worked it out!_
(Nick! - oh no, he doesn't like panels :-(

It would be useful to work out how critical this is, as there is extra
cost involved in other than putting it on the best available surface. 
There is obviously a trade off between efficiency and cost of
installation to give the shortest payback period.
This is complicated (or perhaps made easier) in modern designs by
their ability to use daylight rather than just direct sunlight.

In my particular case the house is orientated at about 45 degrees to
the cardinal points - so I will probably have to invest in a dedicated
mounting anyway and may as well make the best  of it!
(And the gable ends are SE & NW, and since the panel is designed to
freeze the SW roof slope would not be a good idea - just in case
anyone thinks that might be OK.  
And yes I had already considered it might be best to face it somewhat
to the east as a consequence of this design)

>For empirical solar data in the US, see:
>http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad/radiate-form.cgi
I'll check this out.
It might be good enough, thanks.

Gordon. 




From wstewart@patriot.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:52 EST 1996
Article: 1378 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Gee, somebody actually read our paper...
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:50:07 -0400
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3272CDDE.7F2A@patriot.net>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net> <54t3ge$1fv@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-33.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1378 alt.energy.renewable:19018 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9962

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Will Stewart  <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

> >Original data from the
> >"Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and Concentration
> >Collectors"
> >NREL/TP-463-5607 DE93018229
> >
> >December:
> >                                                     [+/-]
> >Solar Radiation, kWh/m^2/day Percentage Uncertainty:^11
> >Avg. 3.1  Min. 2.8  Max 3.4
> 
> Yes Will, for a south-facing collector at a tilt of latitude + 15 degrees, in
> Philadelphia, unlike the vertical window above, which gets 2.9 kWh/m^2/day as
> I wrote, with a ground reflectance of close to 20%, vs higher snow or ice or
> concrete or white pebble or white plastic deckboard or paint reflectances.

Perhaps you are using a different source.  For a vertical surface, the
data I quoted can be found online at
http://solstice.crest.org/cgi-bin/solrad/radiate-search.cgi?state=PA&station=ALLENTOWN&EquipmentType=Flat-Plate+Collector+Facing+South+at+Fixed+Tilt%3D90

Cheers,
 
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From jason@merlin.demon.co.uk Tue Nov  5 09:30:53 EST 1996
Article: 1379 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!merlin.demon.co.uk
From: jason@merlin.demon.co.uk (Jason Arthurs)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:24:42 GMT
Organization: Digital Directory
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <32799b17.1305917@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com>
Reply-To: jason@merlin.demon.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 22 Oct 96 10:24:00 -0500, david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID
WILLIAMS) wrote:

>Note that some solar installations, e.g. swimming-pool heaters, are not
>intended to work in wintertime. In these cases, it is better to make the
>panel point to a higher elevation, to make it more efficient in summer.

Surely it wouldn't be a major task to build a sun seeking panel which
turned to follow the sun throughout the day. I once built a sunseeker
as part of a school technology project which used a BBC model B (an
ancient 32k Motorola 6502 computer used in UK schools) and an array of
five cheap photoresistors. 

The computer measured values from the five photoresistors (arranged in
a cross with the outer four sensors angled away from the central
sensor at about 20 degrees). If one of the outer sensors registered as
being exposed to more light than the central sensor it would activate
a motor and turn the array towards the light. 

It wasn't brilliant and it spent overcast days chasing gaps in the
clouds (a bug I fixed by changing the tolerances). It could be
confused and 'lose' the sun on occasions and it would follow well lit
clouds in preference to the sun on occasions.

By adding extra sensors and a more flexible computer (the BBC model B
was great for its time, but is very limited by todays standards) it
could probably work well enough. In the UK the main limitation was the
weather!

Regards,
Jason.

"When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast 
 is dropped, it always lands with the buttered side facing down. I 
 propose to strap buttered toast to the back of a cat; the two  will
 hover, spinning inches above the ground..."


From casey@mail.fwi.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:53 EST 1996
Article: 1380 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!nntp-hub.idt.net!news.fwi.com!usenet
From: "Casey Lee Lengacher" <casey@mail.fwi.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Cell Arrays for Solar Cars
Date: 30 Oct 1996 04:28:21 GMT
Organization: IPFW
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <01bbc61a$3febfbe0$144471cf@casey.fwi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fw1-18.fwi.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

I'm looking for anyone who knows anything about designing solar cell arrays
for solar cars.



From John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au Tue Nov  5 09:30:54 EST 1996
Article: 1381 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.mira.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news
From: John.Harrison@mailbox.uq.oz.au (John Harrison)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:04:32 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <54tr07$nrn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <8CA5259.172400050D.uuout@westonia.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sujharri.slip.cc.uq.oz.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

david.williams@westonia.com (DAVID WILLIAMS) wrote:

>-> When does heat gain from air temp better the loss from evaporation.
>-> Rough simple approximations is all I require, but probably should
>-> relate water temp to air temp rather than stuff like ..."when its a
>-> warm day"... that depends if you live in Antractica or Manilla!!!!

>If the *dew point* of the air is higher than the temperature of the
>water in your pool, then the pool will certainly gain heat from contact
>with the air. If the dew point is lower than the pool temperature, the
>calculation is long and complex, involving the temperature and humidity
>of the air, wind velocity (including turbulence caused by nearby
>buildings) and a bunch of other things. Rather than attempt the
>calculation, it would probably be a lot easier to use some sort of
>experimental approach, maybe using a miniature "pool" in a jam jar, or
>something of the sort, which would warm up or cool down a lot faster
>than the full-size pool, so you could see what is happening quickly.
>Even a "wet bulb" thermometer, in which the bulb that holds most of the
>mercury or alcohol is surrounded by a damp cloth or tissue, might give
>you sufficient information. If it indicates a temperature that is warmer
>than the pool, take the cover off.

Anything small placed in or on the ground will get a lot of heat
transfer form there won't it? We are talking temps here of 16-17 C at
night and 25-28 C during day.
I am still not sure if the sun is better on the water surface, or
better on my clear plastic bubble cover which is still preventing
evaporation.
I tried exposing half the pool yesterday and measured the exposed
water surface temp vs the temp of water under the cover still - the
same!!! Now maybe thats dumb and the heat transfer is smaller than
1degree.





From wstewart@patriot.net Tue Nov  5 09:30:55 EST 1996
Article: 1382 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:44:26 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <3274AAAA.52DF@patriot.net>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com> <32701A48.FAD@patriot.net> <550ij6$lr5@biffo.sol.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-4.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)

gcp wrote:
> 
> Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> wrote:

> I've seen other compromises that suggest latitude -15 or -10 degrees
> This is probably quite good, but if you think about it, it is
> probably designed for mid (US?) latitudes.

Where do you live? 

> >If you were to plot a curve (energy vs. angle) at different angles, the
> >angle with the greatest area under the curve would provide the greatest
> >energy input in a year's time.

> Plus, if you're being comprehensive, a demand curve.
> But this is what I was after Will,
> _only I'd hoped somebody would have worked it out!_

What is your demand?  How are you going to control your demand, such as;

  - insulation
  - number and type of windows
  - infiltration
  - number of persons, level of activity
  - cooking preferences (amount of energy and humidity)
  - etc.

ASHRAE's Manual J gives a good start for figuring out these factors.
Home Energy magazine gives a lot of good tips in easy-to-understand
articles.

> It would be useful to work out how critical this is, as there is extra
> cost involved in other than putting it on the best available surface.
> There is obviously a trade off between efficiency and cost of
> installation to give the shortest payback period.
> This is complicated (or perhaps made easier) in modern designs by
> their ability to use daylight rather than just direct sunlight.

It sounds as if you are considering passive solar as well.

> In my particular case the house is orientated at about 45 degrees to
> the cardinal points - so I will probably have to invest in a dedicated
> mounting anyway and may as well make the best  of it!

Unless you can construct an addition (like a shed) that faces due south.

> (And the gable ends are SE & NW, and since the panel is designed to
> freeze the SW roof slope would not be a good idea - just in case
> anyone thinks that might be OK.

Why are you concerned about the temperature of the roof?

Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From pcosenza@gpu.com Tue Nov  5 09:30:56 EST 1996
Article: 1383 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!netnews.fast.net!news
From: pcosenza@gpu.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Well when should I take my pool cover off??!!
Date: 31 Oct 1996 15:07:09 GMT
Organization: via FASTNET(tm) PA/NJ/DE Internet Services
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <55afat$2ar@nn2.fast.net>
References: <53p1u3$6vn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <8CA5259.172400050D.uuout@westonia.com> <54tr07$nrn@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au> <556gjc$8mc@news.pathcom.com> <557o9e$db8@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <327814A3.52B1@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: power.gpu.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1383 alt.energy.renewable:19074

Take the cover off before ya dive in!!  Seems simple



From gcp@taynet.co.uk Tue Nov  5 09:30:57 EST 1996
Article: 1384 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-hk.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sol.co.uk!usenet
From: gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:38:57 GMT
Organization: Scotland-On-Line
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <55bd6g$ebi@biffo.sol.co.uk>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <55901n$61v@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-port34.sol.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney) wrote:

>gcp@taynet.co.uk (gcp) wrote:

>>(In case anyone remembers I'm planning to install one of the
>>freeze-tolerant panels I mentioned some time ago!)

>Another thought about your post in which you mention "freeze tolerant"
>solar panels.  What is it that makes them freeze tolerant?

>Even if the panels are freeze tolerant (and many rubber panels claim
>to be) what about the supply and return plumbing? If you are using a
>freezable fluid - read "pure"water- how do you keep the pipes which
>are not in a heated space from freezing? Electric pipe tracing
>heaters? What if the power goes off in the middle of a blizzard for
>5-6 hours?

>Just curious.

In order:
Yup, rubber! (but not any old)
Good question!
(It is directly plumbed into the domestic hot water system 
so it is "pure" water)
_I_ don't know (but I know someone who does :-)
No it's a very simple system. (So next question doesn't follow)
All I can say is it has survived one of the hottest summers on record,
and the last winter, which caused a huge number of burst pipes.
I would guess in freezing conditions isolation valves operate, and
heat loss is not sufficient to cause damage in the time available?

The panel was designed at Napier University in Edinburgh, Scotland,
and the marketing is by AES - part of the Findhorn community.
(Both have www pages.)

I hope that's of some reassurance?
Gordon.






From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Nov  5 09:30:58 EST 1996
Article: 1385 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Sunspace cogeneration
Date: 4 Nov 1996 09:06:11 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 204
Message-ID: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1385 alt.energy.renewable:19075 alt.architecture.alternative:8730 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:9991

In the usual way of making electricity, about 2 kWh of heat go up the cooling
tower, etc, for every 1 kWh of electricity produced. Cogeneration makes more
efficient use of fuel, since that "waste heat" (2/3 of the fuel energy :-)
is used, and the electricity is more reliable, given a grid connection, too.
Small scale cogen makes more sense, as in the Intelligen system (about $10K
for 5 kW, ie $2/peak watt), since it's hard to move heat over large distances.
Intelligen built their first cogen system about 8 years ago, and now they have
about 80 systems in the field, which burn home heating oil. They are building
10 prototypes that will burn natural gas or propane. Their system has an 11 HP
Diesel engine attached to a 5 kW motor, ie an "induction generator." When the
house needs heat, the motor starts the engine from the grid, and the engine's
cooling water circulates through house radiators, a water-air heat exchanger,
an indirect-fired water heater, a fan coil unit, a swimming pool heater, etc,
while making the electric meter run backwards. When the house thermostat says 
the house is warm enough, the system shuts down and waits for the house to
cool off. In the winter, the electric company sends the homeowner a check
every month, or credits for summer usage. The electric bill comes out close
to $0.00 for the year, and the heating bill stays about the same, since over
90% of the energy in the oil is used to make heat and electricity.

But cogen using fossil fuels has to be an interim step, vs. a solar future,
since those fuels will become progressively more expensive as the atmosphere 
keeps getting dirtier. Combining PV and space or water heating seems like a
natural form of cogeneration, since PVs are less than 20% efficient, ie we
waste 4 kWh of heat for every 1 kWh of PV output, and PV cells cost a lot
more than mirrors. Running them hotter makes them a tad less efficient (not
much for the amorphous sort, 50 W/m^2 at 25 C vs 45 W/m^2 at 60 C), so this
is a compromise, but it can work well. Sunwatt makes a 150 W PV panel that
makes 1600 watts of water heating at the same time, using 2:1 concentration.

Putting PV panels or bare PV cells or bare solar water heating collector
plates (eg Big Fins, Zomeworks' most popular product) inside a sunspace is
another way to use the waste heat from PV or water heating to heat a house,
with sunspace air warmed by PVs or collector plates with water inside, not
antifreeze, and no pumps or heat exchangers or controls, just warm-water
thermosyphoning with a plain old 3/4" copper pipe loop to an insulated tank
or a conventional water heater or insulated upstairs, with a heating element
that rarely turns on. A simpler way to make gravity-feed hot water is to put
a few plastic 55 gallon drums on the floor above, and let warm air from the
sunspace rise up behind another layer of glazing on its north wall and heat
the drums, which are supplied with fresh water using a float valve. 

What is this PV mania? Why are a few people going bananas about the small and
shrinking electrical slice of their home energy pies, while mostly ignoring
much more cost-effective solar house and water heating systems?

Suppose we have a "superinsulated" house with average R20 walls and ceilings. 
This might be an ordinary house, with fairly airtight construction, eg a good
polyethylene film vapor barrier inside, and 5 1/2" of fiberglass insulation,
and _just a few windows_ in the walls of the house itself. Why do houses have
so many heat-losing windows? Richard Komp of Sunwatt thinks houses have so
many windows because of the popularity of early "solar houses," ironically.
Pat Hennin at the Shelter Institute thinks it has something to do with massive
magazine advertising of windows, or perhaps the FHA. Marc Rosenbaum, PE,
thinks the BOCA code requires that 4-8% of the floor space of a house be
windows. Do houses have so many windows for daylighting? Direct beam sunlight
is 200 times more intense than a brightly lit office, so if we spread it
around a room well, eg with a reflecting lightshelf below and a white ceiling
above, we only need about 1 ft^2 of window for every 200 ft^2 of floorspace,
ie about 10 ft^2 of windows in a 2,000 ft^2 house. A single 3'x4' south window,
passing Steve Baer's "sameshine" from a heliostat outside? Or a 1'x 1' window
passing a 1kW beam of 10:1 concentrated sun into the house, onto a solar oven? 

Do houses have so many windows so we can see the world outside? At night???
If not, let's put all those house windows in a thermally-isolated low-thermal
mass sunspace that heats the house proper during the day, and enjoy the
sunspace and the view during the day, and go inside and let the sunspace
get cold at night. We do not have an obligation to heat the "outdoors" :-)

I have a engineer friend who lives in a conventional house near Phila, who
has a winter heating bill of about $300. In the winter, he covers almost all
of the windows of his house on the inside with white foamboard, expanded
polystyrene coffee-cup material, which costs about 15 cents per board foot.
He just stuffs the foamboard into the window frames. A fire hazard, but he
lives with that. Malcolm Wells used to cover most of the windows in his
underground office annex with foamboard too, but he had a thin coat of nicely
stenciled stucco on the side of the foamboard that faced the office. For
south windows, we might put some dark stucco or window screen on the side
of the foamboard facing the window, and leave a 2" air gap between the window
and the foamboard, and leave a few inches of window exposed at the top, to
make those windows into passive solar air heaters in the winter. 

If we don't try to keep the sunspace warm at night, we don't need to make it
with R8 house windows that cost $40/ft^2, filled with heat mirrors and argon
gas, or even $5 R2 double glazed patio door replacement panes. We can make
a sunspace out of inexpensive single pane glass, or polycarbonate plastic
at $1/ft^2, or even polyethylene film at $0.05/ft^2, should we desire more
frugality or privacy.

Suppose our two-story R20 house is 32'x32'x16' tall. The thermal conductance
would be about 1,000 ft^2/R20 for the roof and 2,000/R20 for the walls, a
total of 150 Btu/hr-F. How much sunspace glazing would the house need, for
100% solar house heating? That depends on where the house is...

                Mon  Ta  I    I/(68-T)  Qd    SSG   SSA  Q5    ND  SCW

Prescott, AZ    Jan  36  1570    49     114K  1379   83  570K  23   8'
Albuquerque, NM Jan  34  1640    48     122K  1437   85  610K  25  10'
Phila, PA       Jan  30  1000    27     135K   774  174  675K  27  10'
Portland, ME    Dec  27   940    23     149K   691  216  745K  30  10'
Concord, NH     Dec  24   880    20     157K   618  254  785K  32  12'
Elkins, WV      Dec  32   710    19     130K   494  263  650K  26  10'
Seattle, WA     Dec  41   420    15      99K   255  388  495K  20   8'

The first column is the difficult month for solar house heating. The second
and third are NREL's average outdoor temperatures (F) and amounts of sun
that fall on south walls in Btu/ft^2/day. I/(68-T) is sun/degree days, a
measure of solar heating ease. Qd=24(68-T)150 is the amount of heat our house
needs on an average day in that worst-case month. SSG=I-6hr(68-T)1ft^2/R1 is
the daily solar gain per square foot of sunspace glazing. SSA=Qd/SSG is the
sunspace glazing area needed to keep the house warm on an average 24 hour day.
Q5 = 5 Qd is the amount of heat needed to keep the house warm for 5 days
with no sun. ND=Q5/(130F-80F)55x8)) is the number of 55 gallon drums full of
water 130 F water needed inside a solar closet to store that heat. SCW = ND/3,
rounded up to the nearest 2', is the east-west solar closet width required to
hold the drums stacked 3 deep and 2 high, in a box 8' high and 6' deep. The
size of the solar closet does not depend on the amount of sun, in this model,
just the average outdoor temperature. It is proportional to the difference 
between indoor and outdoor temperatures, ie the number of heating degree days.
The sunspace glazing area decreases with the amount of available sun. 

If the sunspace were 16' tall, with insulated endwalls and roof, the 32' south
wall of our R20 house might look like this from above, in various cities: 

                 32'                              
      12'        
|________________________________|     Concord, NH
|           |     |
|     SC    |     |
|           | SS  | 8'
|-----------      |
 -----------------
	16'

      10'        
|________________________________|     Portland, ME 
|         |     |
|     SC  |     |
|         | SS  | 8'
|---------      |
 ---------------
	14'

      10'        
|________________________________|     Phila, PA 
|         |   |
|     SC  |   |
|         | SS| 8'
|---------    |
 -------------
	12'

      10'        
|________________________________|     Elkins, WV 
|         |       |
|     SC  |       |
|         | SS    | 8'
|---------        |
 -----------------
	16'

      10'        
|________________________________|     Albuquerque, NM
|         |  |
|     SC  |  |
|         |SS| 8'
|---------   |
 ------------
	10'

      8'        
|________________________________|     Prescott, AZ 
|       |  |
|     SC|  |
|       |SS| 8'
|-------   |
 ----------
	8'

      8'        
|________________________________|     Seattle, WA 
|       |                  |
|     SC|                  |
|       |SS                | 8'
|-------                   |
 --------------------------
	24'

If some nut fills up the sunspace with PV cells, it won't make any difference
in the size required for house heating, since they are so inefficient, and 
most of the heat from the electrical energy they produce will end up heating
the house anyway. If sunspace air heats water for showers, or it contains bare
collector plates for water heating, it should be about 4' wider. If the solar
closet heats water via 16' of fin-tube pipe near its ceiling and a warmwater
convection loop, the closet should be 8' wider, and double-glazed... 

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

                                          Tom Smith, 1980



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:38 EST 1996
Article: 1386 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Bending 1x3s
Date: 5 Nov 1996 08:58:57 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1386 alt.energy.renewable:19080 alt.architecture.alternative:8739 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10017

Here's a little calculation that might be useful for curved sunspace design:
it finds the approximate bending radius Re and helps estimate the length Le of
the 2 1x3s needed to make a spaced sunspace beam. Picking a length La gives an
estimate of the actual effective bending radius; 10' seems like a good radius.
Much less than that, and cheap 1x3's (10 cents/linear foot) tend to snap.
Much more than that, and headroom and snow loading become problems.

10 H=8'height of an approximate quarter cylinder lean-to sunspace
20 D=10.75'depth of sunspace
30 C=SQR(H^2+D^2)'length of diagonal chord (use for prebending with a wire)
40 RE=C/SQR(2)'approximate radius of bending
50 LE=3.1416*RE/2'approximate length of 1x3
60 PRINT C,LE,RE
70 LA=14'actual length of 1x3 used
80 RAE=LA/SQR(2)'estimate of effective radius of bending
100 RA=RAE'save last estimate
110 RAE=C/2/(SIN(LA/(2*RA)))'refine estimate
120 IF ABS(RAE-RA)>.01*RAE GOTO 100'iterate to 1%
140 PRINT,LA,RA' Note: at Ra = 8', 1/3 of cheap 1x3s snap, when bent.

RUN

13.40009      14.8838       9.475297
              14            12.38271

A typical beam might have flat 1x3 spacer blocks every 2', screwed between 2
12' 1x3s with 2" deck screws, with the bottom 1x3 sticking out (tab A) an inch
below a horizontal purlin serving as the last spacer, with tab A tucked inside
a pressure treated 2x4 staked on edge to the ground with 3' of 1/2" rebar
through a 5/8" hole every 6'. The top tab might stick out from another purlin,
and tuck under a 2x4 screwed flat along the wall of a house, with another 2x4
under that. A slightly diagonal center purlin is useful for alignment and
racking strength. The glazing can be very clear, long-lasting polycarbonate,
at $1/ft^2 in 49" wide rolls, or 3 year UV-stabilized greenhouse polyethylene
film which comes in much wider rolls, with some nylon twine stretched over
the poly from top to bottom between each beam to reduce wind fatigue.  

Dr. Erdos might have offered a dime for the solution to this math problem :-)

Nick

Dr. Paul Erdos died of a heart attack this spring at age 83, while attending
a conference in Warsaw. He lived a celibate, monkish and nomadic life devoted
to mathematics. He had no home, lived out of a single suitcase and traveled
the world attending conferences and visiting mathematicians. Above average
mathematicians might publish 20 papers in their lifetimes; great ones might
publish 50. Erdos worked on mathematics for 19 hours every day, and was the
author of more than 1500 works. He received the immensely prestigious World
Prize, at $50,000 the highest-paying award in mathematics. Despite a spotty 
income, he gave most of it away, offering $10 prizes for easy unsolved
mathematical problems, $100 for hard ones, and $1000 for impossible ones.
He defined the word "mathematician" as "a machine for turning coffee into
theorems." Told by many colleagues to slow down, he always replied "There'll
be plenty of time to rest in the grave." He was 5'6" tall and weighed 130
pounds, with white hair, glasses and an unruly beard. He lived on a diet
consisting largely of caffeine, antidepressents and amphetamines. He was
a master of the Japanese board game go. 



From joefoor@digitalexp.com Sun Nov 17 12:40:39 EST 1996
Article: 1387 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.cntfl.com!dial-03.marianna.fl.digitalexp.com!joefoor
From: joefoor@digitalexp.com (Joe Foor)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Bending wood with steam
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:23:12
Organization: CMDS News machine
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <joefoor.14.00126388@digitalexp.com>
References: <54nm62$5q3@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3270178E.96D@patriot.net> <54t4af$1jq@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <joefoor.10.00010A77@digitalexp.com> <55fph0$sll@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-03.marianna.fl.digitalexp.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1387 alt.energy.renewable:19089 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10025

In article <55fph0$sll@ufo.ee.vill.edu> nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>>I saw a steamer thrown together in about twenty minutes once. 
>>
>>It was made of one inch closed cell rigid foam insulation with a foil 
>>barrier on one side. 
>>
>>The foam was cut down the middle, then two strips about two inches wide were 
>>cut from each edge. The pieces were assembled with the wide oieces separated 
>>at the edges by the two narrow strips, creating a rectangular enclosure 2" 
>>by 16" inside and as long as the foam sheet. several of these were assembled 
>>end to end, with all joints taped with metallic duct tape. 

>Sounds nice :-) What was the steam generator?

>Nick

The steamer was a steel tank (looked like it might have come out of a small 
water heater), sized at about 10 gallons. It was heated by a fire of wood 
scraps from the construction project.

regards,
Joe



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:40 EST 1996
Article: 1388 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 6 Nov 1996 07:44:57 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1388 alt.energy.renewable:19091 alt.architecture.alternative:8742 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10030

Dave Robison <drobison@TELEPORT.COM> writes:

>New super-windows are R3-R5, which is pretty good.

But super-prices and lower solar transmissions are not.
Nor 5 year guarantees. What happens after the argon leaks out?

Consider 2 houses on an average day in Philadelphia in December, with an
average outdoor temperature of 36 F and an average 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
that falls on a south wall: a super-house with 200 ft^2 of R5 super-windows
in the R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 60%, and a house with a
32' wide x 16' tall x 12' deep lean-to R0.8 polyethylene film sunspace on the
R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 92%, covered with shadecloth
in the summer, with just a few windows in the house wall proper, and a 16'
x 48' x 2' deep shallow frozen pond, made from a single 20 x 50' piece of
EPDM rubber in front of the sunspace that augments the solar input by 30%:

                        super-house         sunspace house

Solar gain              120K Btu/day        612K Btu/day

Thermal loss             43K Btu/day        123K Btu/day

Cloudy day loss          43K Btu/day         20K Btu/day

Net energy gain          89K Btu/day        489K Btu/day
                         (26 kWh/day)       (143 kWh/day)

Cogen possiblities:
      solar closet      no                  yes
      water heating     no                  yes
      PV                no                  yes

Summer solar gain       120K Btu/day           0 Btu/day 

House wall
Maintenance             more                less 

Sunspace glazing                            $25 and 2 hours
recycling               none                every 5-10 years            

Gutter
maintenance             more                none

Lawnmowing              more                less

Water storage           0 gallons           12,000 gallons 

Skating rink            no                  yes

Tertiary sewage 
treatment pond          no                  yes

Duckweeds, ducks, 
frogs, goldfish,
bass, reeds, etc.       no                  yes

Mosquitos               no                  ?

Aesthetics              "pretty"            a matter of taste 

Resale value            N/A                 ?       

Removable or      
convertible to
a grape arbor, etc.     N/A                 1 day

Privacy                 not good            better

Cost                    $8,000              $1,000

Additional 
wallspace for
bookcases, etc.         0 ft^2              512 ft^2

Additional floorspace
for daytime use,
December gardening, 
hot tubs, storage, etc. 0 ft^2              384 ft^2

Second story deck       no                  possible (8x32')

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:41 EST 1996
Article: 1389 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 7 Nov 1996 02:13:10 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <55s266$bi6@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1389 alt.energy.renewable:19099 alt.architecture.alternative:8745 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10044

I wrote:
 
>Consider 2 houses on an average day in Philadelphia in December, with an
>average outdoor temperature of 36 F and an average 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
>that falls on a south wall: a super-house with 200 ft^2 of R5 super-windows
>in the R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 60%, and a house with a
>32' wide x 16' tall x 12' deep lean-to R0.8 polyethylene film sunspace on the
>R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 92%, covered with shadecloth
>in the summer, with just a few windows in the house wall proper, and a 16'
>x 48' x 2' deep shallow frozen pond, made from a single 20 x 50' piece of
>EPDM rubber in front of the sunspace that augments the solar input by 30%:
>
>                        super-house         sunspace house
>
>Solar gain              120K Btu/day        612K Btu/day
>
>Thermal loss             43K Btu/day        123K Btu/day
>
>Cloudy day loss          43K Btu/day         20K Btu/day
>
>Net energy gain          89K Btu/day        489K Btu/day
>                         (26 kWh/day)       (143 kWh/day)
>
>Cogen possibilities:
>      solar closet      no                  yes
>      water heating     no                  yes
>      PV                no                  yes...

A little more explanation:

The practice of heating a house with a low-thermal-mass isolated sunspace is
not new, altho adding a solar closet inside one may be. These are called
"solaria" in Canada, as popularized by the Brace Research Institute in
Montreal. I'm building a 2-story version of a polyethylene film "Solar Room"
as pioneered by S. R. Kenin and others in Taos, NM, and described in William
Shurcliff's book _New Inventions in Low-Cost Solar Heating--100 Daring Schemes
Tried and Untried_. The materials for this will cost about $500, and I expect
it will take me about 2 weeks to build.

Some ways to get an idea of what these curved plastic film sunspaces look like
are to visit a local greenhouse grower or greenhouse supplier or to get a
$5 catalog from Stuppy at (800) 877-5025 or E. C. Geiger at (800) 4GEIGER,
http:/www.hortnet.com, or X. S. Smith in New Jersey. The materials to build
one of these greenhouses can cost less than $1/ft^2.

I'm attaching curved galvanized pipe half-bows ($36 each) from a gothic-arch-
type greenhouse to the south side of my house this week. They come from
Geiger's 30' wide "Northerner" plastic film greenhouse, which is 13' 3" tall
in the middle, as normally set up. The straight end that is normally at the
peak of this greenhouse will be at the ground, with the curved end that is
normally at the ground at the top, in this case. The pipes are 20' long
corner to corner and about 22' long along the curve, and 1.66" in diameter,
and get attached to the fascia board of the house with 2 small pieces of
angle iron and 3 bolts to make a hinge, in X S Smith's lean-to detail. The
overall pipe length can be adjusted by slipping more or less of the straight
end of the pipe into a concentric ground post pipe, 50", 60" or 70" long, with
a 3/8" through bolt to hold it in place. The ground posts serve as foundation,
attached to a pressure-treated 2x10 on edge running along the ground.

These pipes will be set up on 4' centers, using 9 of them to cover the
32' x 16' south wall of my house, and the resulting sunspace will be about
12' wide at ground level, ie it will have about 12'x32' of floorspace,
covered with black plastic and pebbles, or maybe gravel and slate.

Greenhouse polyethylene film comes in wide rolls, up to 40'x150' long, and
one standard roll size is 24' x 100' ($122 for 0.004" thick material) so
I'll adjust the pipe length to 24' along the curve, and use a single layer
of 24' wide poly with some nylon twine stretched over the outside between
the bows from top to bottom, following their curve, Mediterranean-style,
to tension the film against wind fatigue. The film will have a large piece
of greenhouse shadecloth covering it in the summer, which should make it
last longer than the 3 year guarantee. Rutgers prof David Meer told me about
his greenhouse in the shade, covered with 6 year old poly film that is still
in good shape. Greenhouse film is often recycled, vs discarded.

I'll be using some aluminum extrusion clamps ("Uni-Lock," Geiger catalog
number 33-SL16, or Stuppy's 10081/10082, at about $1/linear foot) to make the
film easy to change. A less expensive and more labor intensive alternative
is to make curved 1x3 spaced beams for about $5 each, and use cedar 1x3 cap
strips with deck screws to hold the film at the perimeter. 

The usual commercial practice in the US (which has about 15,000 acres of
poly film greenhouses) is to use 2 layers of film, and statically-inflate
them with a continuously running 50-100 watt blower to tension the film.

Nick



From windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com Sun Nov 17 12:40:42 EST 1996
Article: 1391 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!peavax.eng.pko.dec.com!ricks.enet.dec.com!windnagle
From: windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com (Carl Windnagle)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 7 NOV 96 11:31:23
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <55t394$cfe@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ricks.enet.dec.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1391 alt.energy.renewable:19103 alt.architecture.alternative:8750 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10070


Nick,

I appreciate your contributions to these groups.  While I don't necessarily
agree with your general concept of a low-cost, unheated solar-clost it
obviously has merits worth considering.

I have a few questions about the following scheme though.  Why does
one scenario have a reflecting pond and the other does not?  It seems
that the pond could have been used in both to give a more fair comparison.

I also don't understand why the house has so much less window area than
the lean-to.  If you assume that the house has a wall of windows on
the south side it would have less glazing that an equivalent sized lean-to
wall because of the structural supports, but if you started with the
same size building, the lean-to would have a shorter south wall because
of the slant of the roof over the 12 foot depth of your lean-to.

I have a house that I selected because the rear of the house faces within
20 degrees of South.  I plan on adding a garage with a large room above
it primarily for entertaining.  I can't really consider your lean-to
idea because it needs to be permanent and used for more than just heating.
The room hasn't been designed yet, but I'm considering having the roof
of the room angle directly up to the south side so it's at its highest
point there.  Amusingly, this style of roof is referred to as "lean-to".
The south wall would be mostly windows and have an automatic insulating
shade that would open in the morning and close in the evening.  Since it
will only be used for entertaining it seems that it shouldn't need much
heating if there is enough thermal mass to keep it warm into the late evening.

/carl

Sorry for deleting the end of your post, my newsreader made me do it.

In article <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes...
> 
>Consider 2 houses on an average day in Philadelphia in December, with an
>average outdoor temperature of 36 F and an average 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
>that falls on a south wall: a super-house with 200 ft^2 of R5 super-windows
>in the R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 60%, and a house with a
>32' wide x 16' tall x 12' deep lean-to R0.8 polyethylene film sunspace on the
>R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 92%, covered with shadecloth
>in the summer, with just a few windows in the house wall proper, and a 16'
>x 48' x 2' deep shallow frozen pond, made from a single 20 x 50' piece of
>EPDM rubber in front of the sunspace that augments the solar input by 30%:
> 


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:43 EST 1996
Article: 1392 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 9 Nov 1996 05:51:09 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 244
Message-ID: <561nmt$1js@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55t394$cfe@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1392 alt.energy.renewable:19104 alt.architecture.alternative:8755 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10081

>Nick,

Hi Carl,

>I appreciate your contributions to these groups.

Good :-)

>While I don't necessarily agree with your general concept of a low-cost,
>unheated solar-clost it obviously has merits worth considering.

An unheated solar closet? Not our concept. And our concept is very specific,
not at all general, altho specific implementations can take a wide variety of
architectural forms, with equivalent thermal performance. Perhaps you are
talking about a low-thermal-mass sunspace that gets cold at night, something
like a $1/ft^2 transparent lean-to tent covering a part of the south side
of a house, or a $100/ft^2 aluminum or redwood and glass sunspace. It's the
same configuration, from an engineering point of view, but it can have many
architectural forms, with different costs, real-estate taxes, aesthetics, etc.

A solar closet is diametrically different from a sunspace, as physics prof
Dr. Paul Bashus and I described it in our paper. It's a high-thermal-mass
energy storage element, and its internal temperature changes slowly. It stores
solar heat for about a week without sun. It might live in the sunspace, with
its own glazing. It definitely stays warm overnight, completely surrounded
by insulation. Someone just told me that years ago, he added a 15' cube of
water on to his house in New Jersey, for seasonal heat storage. A solar closet
is sort of like that, but smaller and easier to build, and easier to get
heat into and out of, using air, and it only provides heat during cloudy
periods, while the sunspace provides heat for the house on a statistically
average winter day, with an average amount of sun. The sunspace takes care
of the statistical mean, and the closet takes care of statistical deviations.

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory's Solar Radiation Data Manual for
Buildings lists monthly weather data collected over the last 30 years for
239 US cities, with statistical means and deviations. It says a south wall
in Philadelphia receives an average of 1000 Btu/day of sun in January, with
a standard deviation of about 7%.

>From  a less statistical point of view, a sunspace is like a stereotypical
husband who only works when the sun is shining, and moves fast, a yin person
who has no memory for tomorrow. The solar closet is his yang farmer wife, who
puts every penny of her egg money into the cookie jar, and doesn't spend a
penny on heat until a cloudy week comes along, when she leaves her husband
out in the cold (sniff) and keeps her human children warm in the house, her
highest calling. She thinks ONLY of future rewards and delayed gratifications, 
and has few concerns for today, moving slowly, tilling the soil protected
by the sunspace.

The larger the solar closet, the lower the R-value of the house can be, and
still be 100% solar heated. David Boyer's 20 x 100' greenhouse with R1 walls
(2 layers of polyethylene film) was over 80% solar heated last winter, with
a propane heating bill of $1500 vs $8000 the year before. The only thing we
did was to add lots of thermal mass, 200 55 gallon drums full of water, about
a hundred thousand pounds of water. With R10 walls, we might have the same
performance with only 10,000 pounds of water, but the greenhouse was already
there, and the drums were free, and David mainly wants to grow plants and
people, not build solar structures.

What would the R-value of the walls of a 32'x32'x16' tall sunspace house
have to be, for 100% solar heating, if the sunspace contained an 8' tall x
8' deep x 16' long solar closet, under a deck? It might have 55 gallon drums
4 deep x 8 wide x 2 high inside, 64 of them, about 32K pounds of water 
completely surrounded by R20 insulation, with an air heater over the south
wall of the closet: a single 16'x 8' layer of polycarbonate glazing with an
air gap between the glazing and the south wall closet insulation, and openings
in that wall at the top and bottom to let solar warmed air into the closet
during the day, with an insulated damper to cover the top opening at night.
What would the average water temperature be, inside that closet?

The sunspace might be 68 F on an average December day, filled with house air 
flowing into the sunspace from an opening in the house wall near the bottom.
That 68 F air might travel upwards and sideways, from south to north through
a mesh absorber, eg a piece of 50% solar-absorbing green greenhouse shadecloth
with sun shining on and through it, hanging a few inches from the house wall.
That air might become warmer, say 120 F in that thin space, and re-enter the
house through an opening at the top with a motorized damper and a couple of
thermostats to keep the house warm on a statistically average day. 

Meanwhile, the sun would also be shining through the sunspace glazing and
then into the solar closet glazing, inside the sunspace, with no shadecloth
in front of that. Approximately 16'x8'x1000Btu/ft^2/dayx0.9x0.9 = 103K Btu
of sun would enter that solar closet on a statistically average December day,
where I live, with no reflecting pool. The air heater would warm closet air
which would circulate through the solar closet, heating the drums full of
water inside. Each 2' diameter x 3' tall drum has a surface area of about
25 ft^2, so 64 of them have 1600 ft^2, vs the 128 ft^2 of solar glazing,
a large 12.5:1 ratio, which means the drum temperature would be about the
same as the air temperature, when the sun is shining.

On an average December day in Philadephia, the solar closet might lose heat
to a 68 F sunspace during the day and a 36 F sunspace at night. I assume an
average solar collection day is 6 hours long in December in Phila. After a
long string of statistically average weather days in December, if the slowly-
changing water temp in the closet is T, ignoring the floor, we have 

103K Btu = 6hr(T-68)128ft^2/R1    for the south wall, during the day
        + 18hr(T-36)128ft^2/R20   for the south wall at night
        +  6hr(T-68)128ft^2/R20   for the deck, during the day
        + 18hr(T-36)128ft^2/R20   for the deck, at night
        +  6hr(T-68)128ft^2/R20   for the end walls, during the day
        + 18hr(T-36)128ft^2/R20   for the end walls, at night
        + 24hr(T-68)128ft^2/R20   for the north (house) wall
	  
         = 6(T-68)128 + 6(T-68)256/20 + 18(T-36)384/20 + 24(T-68)128/20
	 = (768+76.8+153.6)(T-68) + 345.6(T-36) = 998.4(T-68) + 345.6(T-36)
         = 1344T - 80333, so

T = (103K + 80333)/1344 = 136 F.

If the drums can provide heat for the 68 F house until they reach 78 F, we
can store (136-78)32K = 1.86 million Btu in the closet. On a average cloudy 
day, our sunspace house with about 3000 ft^2 of walls and ceilings with an
average R-value R might lose 24hr(68F-36F)3000ft^2/R = 2.3 million/R Btu.
It might need about 11.5 million/R Btu to stay warm inside for 5 days in
a row with no sun. If 1.86 million = 11.5 million/R, then R = 6.2. One might
even build the whole house out of R8 windows, except for the R20 south wall,
if one were rich and crazy. Houses with sunspaces and solar closets do not
have to be superinsulated and airtight to be 100% solar-heated.

>I have a few questions about the following scheme though.  Why does
>one scenario have a reflecting pond and the other does not?

Most houses don't have ponds to the south, and I was trying to
compare a conventional house to something different, and better. 

>It seems that the pond could have been used in both to give a more
>fair comparison.
 
Sure. That would reduce the amount of sun that falls on the sunspace by about
30% in December (-->, below), while increasing the lawnmowing, etc, so the
sunspace house would collect less sun. Instead of collecting 5.44 times as
much sun as the super-house, the sunspace house would only collect about
4 times as much, which is still a lot more, and a lot more than needed for
100% solar heating, with reasonably-insulated walls and air infiltration. 

                        super-house         sunspace house

Solar gain              120K Btu/day        612K Btu/day --> 471K Btu/day

Thermal loss             43K Btu/day        123K Btu/day

Cloudy day loss          43K Btu/day         20K Btu/day

Net energy gain          89K Btu/day        489K Btu/day --> 348K Btu/day
                         (26 kWh/day)       (143 kWh/day)-->  102 kWh/day

>I also don't understand why the house has so much less window area than
>the lean-to.  If you assume that the house has a wall of windows on
>the south side it would have less glazing that an equivalent sized lean-to
>wall because of the structural supports, but if you started with the
>same size building, the lean-to would have a shorter south wall because
>of the slant of the roof over the 12 foot depth of your lean-to.

I'm trying to give the super-window-house a break. Direct gain houses have
an optimal ratio of heat load to south window area. Too many south windows,
which are poor thermal insulators, vs a house wall, and the thermal loss of
the house during the night or a cloudy week go way up, which kills the
performance unless you live in the sunny southwest. Too few windows, and you 
have a superinsulated house with no solar gain. And those windows are very
expensive. Sunspace houses have no such performance limitation. They can have
as much sunspace glazing as they want, since that glazing causes no thermal 
loss for the house at night, or on a cloudy day. The sunspace also eliminates
the average daytime loss from the south wall area covered by the sunspace,
but that doesn't mean much, since at high solar fractions, what matters most
is house performance on cloudy days. 
 
>I have a house that I selected because the rear of the house faces within
>20 degrees of South. 

Nice to be free from aesthetic tyrants :-)

>I plan on adding a garage with a large room above it primarily for
>entertaining.

That is to say, occasional use?

>I can't really consider your lean-to
>idea because it needs to be permanent and used for more than just heating.

Nothing is permanent, but X S Smith says their curved galvanized pipes should 
last for at least 40 years. The plastic film needs replacing and recycling
every 5-10 years, if it is covered with shadecloth in the summer. That might
take an hour or two, on a calm day. Polycarbonate plastic is clearer, like a
window, and would last longer, perhaps 30 years if covered with shadecloth
in summer, but it is also more expensive, about $1/ft^2, and attaching it
is more work, since it only comes in 4' wide rolls, vs 40' wide rolls that 
only need be attached at the edges.  

Is it better to build permanent structures, eg concrete Monolithic Domes
with a lifetime of some 2000 years, by their estimate, or to build things
with shorter lifetimes, and allow them to adapt or disappear over time? An
old Californian specifically asked an architect to design him a house that
would not last much longer than his lifetime. Suppose we covered the earth
with Monolithic Domes over the next few years, leaving a permanent legacy 
for our children, and their children, and so on. Would their lifestyles be
different from ours? Would they see this as an architectural disaster? Would
they establish a superfund, with traveling concrete grinders to reduce them
to dust, so they could build more appropriate houses?

>The room hasn't been designed yet, but I'm considering having the roof of the
>room angle directly up to the south side so it's at its highest point there.

Sounds good.

>Amusingly, this style of roof is referred to as "lean-to".

Sounds like a clerestory, that doesn't lean.

>The south wall would be mostly windows and have an automatic insulating
>shade that would open in the morning and close in the evening.

Good luck. Those things seem very expensive to me, and if they leak ANY air
around the edges, the R-value becomes a lot lower than what is claimed. And
how does the claimed R-value compare to an R20 wall?

>Since it will only be used for entertaining it seems that it shouldn't need
>much heating if there is enough thermal mass to keep it warm into the late
>evening.

Something seems backwards here. If the room use is occasional, perhaps it
should have very low thermal mass, so you can heat it up quickly for parties
at night, eg with warm air from the house, and let cool off quickly. It
sounds like a fine sunspace, one that might even heat the rest of your house,
unless you fill it with thermal mass.

Why not make the south wall of the garage below transparent, and let that
"sunspace" warm air flow up into your new room when the sun is shining, and
into the house, with no nighttime penalty? How about some clear corrugated
polycarbonate "solar siding," with a dark, low-thermal-mass surface and an
air gap behind it, or an old-fashioned glass garage door, or perhaps a
translucent fiberglass version? 

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html



From greentro@sentex.net Sun Nov 17 12:40:45 EST 1996
Article: 1393 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.rns.net!flint.sentex.net!p21.gallium.sentex.ca!greentro
From: greentro@sentex.net (Bert Menkveld)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Panel orientation?
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:53:33 LOCAL
Organization: Greentronics
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <greentro.11.002D6893@sentex.net>
References: <54dua0$k8h@biffo.sol.co.uk> <8CAC270.172400051A.uuout@westonia.com> <32799b17.1305917@news.demon.co.uk> <558kea$ir@news.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p21.gallium.sentex.ca
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]

In article <558kea$ir@news.pathcom.com> sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney) writes:
>Unfortunately it is a major task to build a solar tracker capable of
>handling standard sized systems for pools and domestic hot water.
>The increase in solar energy collected is usually no more than 30 %.
>It is much more cost effective , from both a maintenace point of view
>and initial cost standpoint, to simply add 30 % more collector area.

But what if we add some simple mirrors to concentrate incoming solar rays on 
the collector?  Without tracking, such mirrors don't help very much (it seems 
to me), but with a tracking collector, you can get optimal use of low-cost 
mirror surfaces surrounding the collector on all sides.

Does this make sense?  Of course, the whole collector and mirror thing is 
going to be pretty big and unwieldy.  One of these days I'm going to actually 
build a collector, but it certainly won't be tracking on the first go round.

--
Bert Menkveld



From Money@Moneyville.net.au Sun Nov 17 12:40:46 EST 1996
Article: 1394 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pumpkin.pangea.ca!news.mira.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news
From: Money@Moneyville.net.au (Rad)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: $$$$$$$ WOMEN AND MONEY $$$$$$$
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 08:41:09 GMT
Organization: Customer of Connect.com.au P/L, Melbourne, Australia
Lines: 141
Message-ID: <3283399b.0@pluto.ais.com.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pluto.ais.com.au
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Rad wrote:
Buried in this article are several cool and naughty address’ so read
on.
Taking 5 minutes to read this may be one of the best decisions you
ever
make.


If you follow the three steps below, there is no reason whatsoever
that
why you can’t make a few bucks just like all the other rich bastards
around.
  This is a perfectly legitimate investmentopportunity.  You 
invest $5 and you receive return on your investment.  So does the next
investor.  NOT ILLEGAL, NOT A CHAIN LETTER - PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE!
OBVIOUSLY IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED, THEN DON'T PARTICIPATE. BUT 
PLEASE PRINT THIS ARTICLE AND GIVE IT TO SOMEONE WHO MAY WISH TO 
TAKE ADVANTAGE.

The procedure is very simple.

Step 1.  Write your name and address on 5 separate pieces of paper
with
the words "Please 
add me to your mailing list." Fold a $1 note or money order or bank
draft
in each of the 
pieces of paper and mail them to the following 5 addresses:

1. Deborah Gorham, 2541 High Ridge, Jennings Mo, 63136
2. Mike Burek, 2007 Sunny Brook Dr., Austin ,Tx. 78723-3451  USA
3. Todd Faggoa, 75 Courtney Rd., Dartmouth, NS B3A4C3 Canada
4. Dave Scott, 3399 E. Stone Mountain ln., Sandy, UT, 84092  USA
5.Rod Davey, 32 Burgundy St Pascoe Vale Victoria Australia 3044

Step 2. Now remove the 1st name from the top of the list and put your
name
and address as number 5 on the list.  You can do this by re-typing
this article or simply
editing and re-posting it in this or another newsgroup.

Step 3. Post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (There
are
17000 of them)

You are now in the mail order investment business and you will start
to
receiving $1 returns within a week or two.  The more newsgroups you
post to, the bigger
your return will be. You may want to rent a Post office box to handle
the volume of
mail you are likely to receive.  
If you wish to remain anonymous , you can use a pseudonym such as "The
Manager"  or "The investor",  But make sure you address is correct!

NOW LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS SYSTEM WORKS!

Of every 200 postings I made, I received an average of 5 replies, YES
-
ONLY 5, each with a $1 bill enclosed. You make $5 for every 200
postings WITH YOUR NAME
AT NUMBER 5.

Each person who sent you $1 now also makes, let's say, only  200
additional postings WITH YOUR NAME AT NUMBER 4, i.e. 1000 postings On
average, therefore, 50 
people will send you $1 with your name at number 4.  You make $50.

Your 50 new agents make 200 postings each WITH YOUR NAME AT NUMBER 3.
Or 
10,000 postings - average return 500 at $1 each is $500.  They make
200
postings each With YOUR NAME AT NUMBER 2 = 100,000 Postings. = 5000
returns at $1 each =

$5,000.  

Finally, 5000 people make 200 postings each WITH YOUR NAME AT NUMBER
1. 
And you get a return of $50,000 before your name drops off the list.
AND THAT'S IF EVERYONE MAKES ONLY 200 POSTINGS!

TOTAL INCOME IN ONE CYCLE $55,500.

>From  time to time, when your name drops off the list, you take the
latest
posting that is appearing in the newsgroups, SEND OUT ANOTHER $5 TO
THE NAMES THAT ARE 
ON THE LIST, PUT YOUR NAME IN AT NUMBER 5 AND START POSTING 
AGAIN.  REMEMBER, 200 POSTINGS IS ONLY A GUIDELINE.  THE MORE YOU 
POST THE GRATER YOUR RETURN.

Let's review the reasons you should do this:  The only cost factors
are 5
stamps, five envelopes, and $5. Anyone can afford five dollars to put
into such an
effortless investment with SPECTACULAR RETURNS!  

Some people have said to me "What if the scheme gets played out and no
one
sends me any money?"  Big deal!  You loose $5.  BUT, WHAT IF IT WORKS!
Think of what
you stand to gain!

Do you realize how many newsgroups there are?  Do you realize how many
time this can be played out over and over, with COMPLETELY NEW people
participating? 
THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF NEWSGROUP USERS EVERY MONTH!

Remember, read the instructions carefully and PLAY FAIRLY....That's
the
only way this will work for everyone.  Get a printout so you can refer
back to this
article easily.

There is always the temptation to NOT send the money, and re-post the
article anyway.  There is nothing to keep you from doing this...But
remember that if the
people who re-post YOUR article do the same, then you make no money
either.  LET'S ALL BE
HONEST,AND WE CAN ALL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!

REMEMBER, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY.

Enjoy!
Could somebody please send me the cheat codes for Dukematch
as my mate really needs to get his butt kicked
Here’s an address for a cool site  http://http.tamu.edu/~wac1277/
DONNA D'ERICO
GENA LEE NOLIN
http://152.163.199.26/borrg/biz.html
http://www.superbody.com
http://www.itouchmyself.com
http://www.libidox.com
http://erosnet.com
AMY JO jOHNSON
http://www.liquidimage.ca/vr/
www.axxis.com.kali-duke net program
http://www.liquidimage.ca/vr/




From duncan@tcac.com Sun Nov 17 12:40:47 EST 1996
Article: 1395 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!atlas.tcac.com!usenet
From: Duncan Baird <duncan@tcac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 10 Nov 1996 22:00:54 GMT
Organization: TCA Communications
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <565jam$hva@atlas.tcac.com>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55t394$cfe@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slsp-ara1-a4.tcac.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1395 alt.energy.renewable:19124 alt.architecture.alternative:8759 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10095

If you would like natural daylighting in your house to replace your
electric lights during the day, visit 

http://pages.prodigy.com/duba/sohome.htm

So-Luminaire Daylighting Systems Corp makes a system that tracks the 
sun and reflects the light into your house.  You will find info at 
this web site.

Thanks,
Duncan Baird


windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com (Carl Windnagle) wrote:
>
> 
> Nick,
> 
> I appreciate your contributions to these groups.  While I don't necessarily
> agree with your general concept of a low-cost, unheated solar-clost it
> obviously has merits worth considering.
> 
> I have a few questions about the following scheme though.  Why does
> one scenario have a reflecting pond and the other does not?  It seems
> that the pond could have been used in both to give a more fair comparison.
> 
> I also don't understand why the house has so much less window area than
> the lean-to.  If you assume that the house has a wall of windows on
> the south side it would have less glazing that an equivalent sized lean-to
> wall because of the structural supports, but if you started with the
> same size building, the lean-to would have a shorter south wall because
> of the slant of the roof over the 12 foot depth of your lean-to.
> 
> I have a house that I selected because the rear of the house faces within
> 20 degrees of South.  I plan on adding a garage with a large room above
> it primarily for entertaining.  I can't really consider your lean-to
> idea because it needs to be permanent and used for more than just heating.
> The room hasn't been designed yet, but I'm considering having the roof
> of the room angle directly up to the south side so it's at its highest
> point there.  Amusingly, this style of roof is referred to as "lean-to".
> The south wall would be mostly windows and have an automatic insulating
> shade that would open in the morning and close in the evening.  Since it
> will only be used for entertaining it seems that it shouldn't need much
> heating if there is enough thermal mass to keep it warm into the late evening.
> 
> /carl
> 
> Sorry for deleting the end of your post, my newsreader made me do it.
> 
> In article <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes...
> > 
> >Consider 2 houses on an average day in Philadelphia in December, with an
> >average outdoor temperature of 36 F and an average 1,000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun
> >that falls on a south wall: a super-house with 200 ft^2 of R5 super-windows
> >in the R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 60%, and a house with a
> >32' wide x 16' tall x 12' deep lean-to R0.8 polyethylene film sunspace on the
> >R20 south wall, with a solar transmission of 92%, covered with shadecloth
> >in the summer, with just a few windows in the house wall proper, and a 16'
> >x 48' x 2' deep shallow frozen pond, made from a single 20 x 50' piece of
> >EPDM rubber in front of the sunspace that augments the solar input by 30%:
> > 



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:48 EST 1996
Article: 1396 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!newshub.csu.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Ohm's law for heatflow
Date: 11 Nov 1996 12:19:23 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 232
Message-ID: <567n6r$eff@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: back to solar basics :-)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1396 alt.energy.renewable:19131 alt.architecture.alternative:8763 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10105

My friend in the Canadian Frozen North writes:

>       I figure with 166K Btu insolation and 60K lb of water that the
>       maximum temperature gain by the water is (166KBtu/60Klb = 2.76 F)
>       subtract from that the heat loss day and night and you stabilize
>       at around 115 or 116 F.

You can just pretend the thermal mass is infinite, to find that equilibrium
temperature. (How do you subtract a temperature from a heat loss???)

>       I may be wrong somewhere in my calculations because when I increase
>       the R-value of the hoophouse and decrease the r-value of the pool,
>       (remember, I want this thing to operate at -40 and the 28 degree
>       spread you have in Pennsylvania seems a bit feeble for that) I end up
>       in some sort of a loop where the water temp and air temp fluctuate
>       wildly from positive hundreds to negative 50's and hundreds.

Sounds familiar :-)

"Confusion is like fertilizer.
It feels like shit, but nothing grows without it." :-)

>       I know for sure that the water and air in that greenhouse aren't
>       going to be colder than the outside temp,

That's an excellent insight. One you don't often get with F-charts...
This is more like cooking from scratch than with cake mixes.

>       but I can't seem to figure out the source of the problem.

Keep looking... (I've managed to make those solar air-conditioners too :-) 

>       Thot u mite hev sum ideas, no?

You need to put some limits in your spreadsheets, and make them march slower
in time. You need to tell them things like "if part A is warmer than part B,
let heat flow from A to B, but if part A is cooler, don't let any heat flow
>from  A to B." Your computing knowledge seems to be ahead of your heatflow and
arithmetic knowledge :-) I think you need to slow down, and _simplify_ this
system, and play with it and see what happens, until it makes sense to you.
I know that sounds pretty general, but it's a good way to go...

>       I've gotten some catalogs from greenhouse suppliers... and found them
>       full of good deals, but short on solar and insulating info.

Yes. They don't care much about that, because their customers don't, because
we haven't stopped bombing Iraq yet. Stuppy has a nice $5 catalog at (800)
877-5025, with lots of application notes in the back. More along the lines of
how to build things than their thermal performance.

>       They talk about "high transparency",
>	"the best IR retention","20% warmer","highest insulating
>	value", but they don't give any real numbers for me to crunch.

Yes. I don't think IR greenhouse film is worth buying for a sunspaces that
get cold at night. It costs more, 7 or 8 cents/ft^2 vs 5, and the IR additive
also blocks some of the solar input. Some window screen or shadecloth inside
the sunspace can also reduce reradiation by letting part of the sun pass
through the mesh and heat up the dark wall behind it. Then some of the
reradiation from the wall is blocked by the mesh so it can't get back out
through the poly glazing. Another advantage to using a mesh is that the
sunspace can be filled with cooler air flowing out from the house, while the
air in that thin solar air heater space between the mesh and the house wall
can be warmer, which is thermally more efficient and more comfortable for
people than filling the whole sunspace up with hot air, next to the cool
sunspace glazing. The mesh also increases the sun-air heat transfer surface
area, which lowers the average absorber temperature and reduces reradiation.
If the mesh is hung outside the poly film in the summer, or the poly film
is rolled up and the mesh is left in place, the mesh will reduce solar gain
and the poly film will last a lot longer.

>	I got a greenhouse design book from a prof in Alaska and it
>	gives lotsa numbers, but instead of R-values, he quotes
>	everything in U-value.  Is there a conversion?

Sure R = 1/U.

>       Now I have heard of R-value, U-value, Metric R-value, and R.S.I.

I've never heard of R.S.I. What does that stand for? Royal SI units? :-)

>	Is there a conversion?

US R-values in ft^2-F-hr/Btu are 5.68 times higher than metric ones
in W/m^2-K, for the same material... So metric R1 is like US R5.68,
and a US R1 window would be R0.176 watts/m^2-K or U = 5.68 in metric.

>       I have an old book called _the Theory of Heat_ which has yet
>       another way of quantizing relative thermal conductivity.
>       Beyond me, I'm afraid.

Beyond me too, probably. I do not like calculus.

Perhaps you've seen the book _Structures: Why Things Don't Fall Down_,
by J. E. Gordon, containing this nice little quote...

   When we play tennis or walk downstairs we are actually solving
   whole pages of differential equations, quickly, easily and without
   thinking about it, using the analogue computer which we keep in our
   minds. What we find difficult about mathematics is the formal, symbolic
   presentation of the subject by pedagogues with a taste for dogma,
   sadism and incomprehensible squiggles.

Or this one... 

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become
involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as
intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.

					  Tom Smith, 1980
Still waiting...

>       I just want some  basic
>	formulas that I can put numbers into so I can figure out the
>	optimal size and materials for my solar greenhouse experiment.

You might look at your Alaska prof's greenhouse book more carefully, or read
about Ohm's law for heatflow on page 70 of the $35 NRAES-33 Greenhouse
Engineering book (4th rev., 1996? now written by Robert A. Aldrich and John
W. Bartok, Jr., published by the good honest non-profit Northeast Regional
Agricultural Engineering Service at 152 Riley-Robb Hall, Cooperative Extension,
Ithaca, NY, 14853-5701, or (607) 255-7654... (For another $6 they will also
send you a photocopy of their 10 year old biogas booklet that explains how
to make methane from manure and use it in modified gas appliances.) 

Table 4-2 on page 64 says poly film has a light (PAR) transmittance of 0.92
and an infra-red transmissivity of 81% (vs glass and polycarbonate at 2% and
1%--polycarbonate is better...) at an 80 F source temperature. Fig 2-8 on
page 31 shows a fairly flat curve of transmittance vs wavelength for poly, so
2 layers should pass about 0.92 x 0.92 = 0.85 of the solar heating spectrum.
But then Table 2-3 on page 34 lists a thermal transmittance of 50% for UV-
stabilized polyethylene, and 20% for IR poly, which seems inconsistent with
page 64. This may be a science like bible interpretation. Table 4-4 on page
66 lists U1.2 for a single layer of plain poly film, with U0.7 for 2 layers.
And table 8-4 on page 146 lists a single layer of clear poly film used as an
internal thermal blanket (no wind) as having U = 0.45 Btu/hr-F-ft^2, ie just
over R2, while black poly film has U = 0.48, a _better_ effective conductor,
as a better IR emitter? If it matters so little whether the poly film blanket
is clear or black, with no wind, how can we lose lots of heat by reradiation?

So... the R-value of poly film with wind outside seems to be "about 1,"
which seems like a nice round number to use for solar designs.

BTW, the thermal conductance of a surface air film is approximately 

U = Cs + V/Cw Btu/hr-F-ft^2, where V is in mph, and 
    Cs = 1.5 and Cw = 5 for smooth surfaces like glass and
    Cs = 2 and Cw = 2 for rough surfaces like stucco (p 22.1, 1993 ASHRAE HOF.)

I suggest you call your greenhouse a design, BTW, not an experiment. Do you
know Ohm's law for electricity? It's the same as Newton's Law of Cooling in
heatflow, with different units.

Newton said that the amount of heat that flows through a wall in an hour
is proportional to the difference in temperatures on each side of the wall
and the size of the wall, and inversely proportional to its thickness.

Ohm's law:      I = (Vh-Vl)/R, eg 2 amps   = (12V-2V)/5 Ohms.
Newton's law:   Q = (Th-Tl)/R, eg 2 Btu/hr = (12F-2F)/5 F-hr/Btu.

I is in the current flow in amps, and Q is the heatflow in Btu/hr
(or watts--all this is easy to do in metric too, easier in fact, but
it seems easier to just talk about one system at a time.)

Vh is a higher voltage and Vl is a lower voltage, while
Th is a higher temperature and Tl is a lower temperature.
(Vh-Vl) is called the potential difference or voltage.
(Th-Tl) is called the temperature difference or "delta T."
You can think of either as the pressure that drives the flow.

R is the electrical resistance in Ohms or 
    the thermal resistance in ft^2-F-hr/Btu
R = rho L/A for an electrical resistor, where rho is the bulk electrical
    resistivity of a material, L is the length of resistor that the
    current flows through, and A is its cross-sectional area of that path.
R = k L/A for a thermal resistor, where k is the bulk thermal resistivity
    of the insulating material, L is the wall thickness (think of a wall
    as a very large flat resistor :-) and A is the area of the wall.

Another way to calculate the value of a thermal resistor is 

R = R-value/A, where "R-value" is the _measured_ US R-value that you see
               stamped on big rolls or sheets of insulation in hardware
	       stores, and A is the area of the insulator in square feet.

A lot of good honest people in the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating
and Air-Conditioning Engineers have measured R-values for individual building
components, so we can easily calculate and reliably predict the values of
thermal resistors composed of combinations of components, using the same rules 
that people use to find the resistance of series and parallel electrical
resistors. This is not very mysterious, altho ASHRAE people seem fond of
footnotes. It works pretty well at low temperatures, eg below 130 F. Above
400 F, heatflow by radiation becomes very important. That depends on the
absolute temperature of a body, ie how warm it is compared to absolute zero,
and what is around it. A "black body" with emissivity 1 at temperature T (F)
with nothing around it radiates 0.174(T+460)^4 Btu/hour/ft^2 of heat. A
selective surface like oxidized galvanized iron or copper can radiate less,
and be hotter in the sun.

It is curious how people don't think of buildings using beams designed with 
arithmetic as structural experiments, but they think of solar structures
designed with Newton (1642-1727)'s Law of Cooling as thermal experiments,
even though that is a older version of Ohm (1787-1854)'s law, which most
people accept, except for new age electricians, perhaps... Is this because
there are so many badly designed solar structures, from a thermal point of
view, designed without much arithmetic at all, or solar common sense? Solar
history books like John Perlin's _Golden Thread_ tell of architects being
_amazed_ over and over, over the years, over decades and decades, one by one,
that a room with a south window gets warm when the sun is shining, a fact that
engineers and physicists have been able to predict very precisely for hundreds
of years. High school students can do this, these days, but architects still
haven't figured out solar basics yet. They just talk as if they know what they
are talking about, and design poorly-performing solar houses, and wave their
hands. They need to use more numbers, as they do when designing simple beams.

>	I have probably invested a week's worth of hours researching
>	this, so you could qualify me as "interested".

I'm just beginning to master the basics of solar arithmetic, after 22 years,
with valuable help from good and honest and generous solar pioneers like Steve
Baer, John Page, PhD, William Beckman, PhD, John Duffie, PhD, Norman Saunders,
PE, Howard Reichmuth, PE, and William Shurcliff, PhD. And special insights
>from  William (Mr Bill) Rosenthal, PhD, who actually likes calculus. And a lot
of distractions and arrogant ignorant talk from architects, and a lot of
expensive and impractical badly performing designs like envelope houses and
direct gain houses (Steve Baer's wife calls them "direct loss houses" :-)
outside of the Southwest. Government programs have not helped my understanding
much, but NREL has helped a lot lately, with some very good solar weather data
for 239 US cities.

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:49 EST 1996
Article: 1397 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 12 Nov 1996 20:32:16 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <56b8f0$2j4@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55t394$cfe@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com> <561nmt$1js@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <56a74e$kkj@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1397 alt.energy.renewable:19138 alt.architecture.alternative:8768 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10126

Carl Windnagle <windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com> wrote:

>>Why not make the south wall of the garage below transparent, and let that
>>"sunspace" warm air flow up into your new room when the sun is shining, and
>>into the house, with no nighttime penalty? 
 
>Actually I was planning on extending the windows all the way down to the
>ground level

Sounds good. An ideal passive house might have a sunspace on a lower level,
thermal storage above that, and living space above that, so heat could be
collected and stored and distributed entirely passively, since hot air rises.

>It seems like making that space a solar closet instead would solve many
>problems.

It sounds like you are talking about putting the solar collection and
storage on the ground floor. I was just suggesting putting a "sunspace"
on the ground floor, with no thermal storage.

>I won't have to worry about freezing.  The glazing for the solar closet 
>would be dramatically less expensive than high R-value windows used
>in the living space. 

Good... Do you have clearly in mind that solar closets work best inside
some sort of larger sunspace glazing, or at least with 2 layers of glazing
in front of them, with house air circulating between the glazings, to make
this a more efficient solar collection and storage system, in a sort of
symbiotic relationship? You write about a solar closet on the ground floor,
but you don't mention its surrounding sunspace partner.

>I should also be able to set it up so that when the large room is not being
>used, I can send excess collected heat from the solar closet into the rest
>of the house.

The way I figure it, if the solar closet is inside or behind some sort of
sunspace (which can take a number of forms, eg transparent siding for a house)
there will always be excess heat available from that sunspace while the closet
is charging up to a higher temperature, but the closet will never supply heat
to the house while the sun is shining, by design. When the sun is shining, 
heat is most efficiently extracted from the sunspace, a less expensive
structure operating at a lower temperature. If the closet were to supply heat
to the house when the sun were shining, it would have a have to store heat at
a lower temperature than if not. In my mind, solar closets themselves should
supply little heat for the house on an average day, except as accidental
thermal losses.

This is a vague word picture of some conclusions that can be made
more precise and seen more clearly with some solar arithmetic...

Nick



From windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com Sun Nov 17 12:40:50 EST 1996
Article: 1398 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!data.ramona.vix.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!peavax.eng.pko.dec.com!ricks.enet.dec.com!windnagle
From: windnagle@ricks.enet.dec.com (Carl Windnagle)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Comparing a super-house with super-windows vs. a sunspace house
Date: 12 NOV 96 10:49:26
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <56a74e$kkj@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com>
References: <55kt8j$nia@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55nh71$2q7@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55q189$5ah@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <55t394$cfe@peavax.eng.pko.dec.com> <561nmt$1js@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ricks.enet.dec.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1398 alt.energy.renewable:19139 alt.architecture.alternative:8769 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10128


Thanks for the clarification.  I have to admit I hadn't fully understood
the solar closet concept until now.  It seems like that would nicely
solve some of the problems I had been trying to figure out.

In article <561nmt$1js@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes...
>An unheated solar closet? Not our concept. And our concept is very specific,
>not at all general, altho specific implementations can take a wide variety of
>architectural forms, with equivalent thermal performance. 
>Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html

>>I have a house that I selected because the rear of the house faces within
>>20 degrees of South. 
>>I plan on adding a garage with a large room above it primarily for
>>entertaining.
> 
>That is to say, occasional use?
> 
>>The room hasn't been designed yet, but I'm considering having the roof of the
>>room angle directly up to the south side so it's at its highest point there.
>>The south wall would be mostly windows and have an automatic insulating
>>shade that would open in the morning and close in the evening.
>>Since it will only be used for entertaining it seems that it shouldn't need
>>much heating if there is enough thermal mass to keep it warm into the late
>>evening.
> 
>Something seems backwards here. If the room use is occasional, perhaps it
>should have very low thermal mass, so you can heat it up quickly for parties
>at night, eg with warm air from the house, and let cool off quickly. It
>sounds like a fine sunspace, one that might even heat the rest of your house,
>unless you fill it with thermal mass.
> 
My line of thinking had been that I could let it cool off, but then I
realized that most of the time it would be used would be after sunset.
I also thought that the room would most likely be excessively warm
during the day so some thermal mass would help.

>Why not make the south wall of the garage below transparent, and let that
>"sunspace" warm air flow up into your new room when the sun is shining, and
>into the house, with no nighttime penalty? 
>Nick


Actually I was planning on extending the windows all the way down to the
ground level and putting a wall between the garage and the sunspace so
there would be more sunspace to heat the room and thermal mass.  I was going
to use simple unglazed, passive hot water collectors with the storage tank 
above so it would be completely passive.  I was worried that there was a chance
that the bottom of the collector could freeze though since it would be the
lowest point of the room and right next to all those windows.


It seems like making that space a solar closet instead would solve many
problems.  I won't have to worry about freezing.  The glazing for the
solar closet would be dramatically less expensive than high R-value windows
used in the living space.  I should also be able to set it up so that
when the large room is not being used, I can send excess collected heat
>from  the solar closet into the rest of the house.  And of course the solar
closet could be used to heat the large room when necessary.


I still don't think I'd use the lean-to, galvanized pipe frame sunspace
because it would obscure the view out the south windows.


/carl


From asolovyo@copper.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:51 EST 1996
Article: 1399 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!copper!asolovyo
From: asolovyo@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Ariadna A Solovyova)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.energy
Subject: Energy Crisis in Kazakhstan: INFO AND ADVICE NEEDED!
Date: 15 Nov 96 02:02:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <asolovyo.848023359@copper>
NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 (NOV)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.homepower:527 alt.energy.renewable:19168 alt.solar.thermal:1399 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1984 sci.energy:57969

Hi,

I'm a student from Kazakhstan, a former Soviet Union republic, whose
residents now suffer from fuel shortages. Many of my friends in Almaty
(the capital of Kazakhstan) have been cooking on fire for a few weeks.

I've found some exciting info and plans for solar cookers and will send
them to my friends; I will also travel there soon and deliver materials
that are hard to obtain there. Almaty is one of the sunniest cities in the
former SU, so solar energy has a great potential there.

I need more information about all kinds of solar devices (especially those
which could be used by apartment dwellers), as well as efficient (and,
preferably, easy to construct) woodstoves. Also, any advice on what people
could do to help themselves in this situation would be very welcome. I
would be thankful for pointers to books, magazines, WWW sites, mailing
lists, commercial sources, and especially plans and designs that could be
used to construct needed devices.

The worst problem there is cooking and water heating, since most people
have gas stoves, and natural gas supplies have been cut off. However,
electricity and central heating have recently been down several times as
well. So if anyone knows where I could get portable generators that run on
something else than natural gas (alcohol? kerosene?), portable electric
stoves, or anything else of that sort, please contact me! 

If you represent a company that supplies any of those things, I could help
you make business contacts with companies and US agencies in Almaty if you
are interested.

Thank you very much in advance!

Ari Solovyova


From jgordes@mail.snet.net Sun Nov 17 12:40:52 EST 1996
Article: 1400 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.onr.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet
From: jgordes@mail.snet.net
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Energy Crisis in Kazakhstan: INFO AND ADVICE NEEDED!
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:07:42 GMT
Organization: A customer of SNET Internet: http://www.snet.net/
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <56i4em$iqt@news.snet.net>
References: <asolovyo.848023359@copper>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trtn00-sh1-port3.snet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.homepower:528 alt.energy.renewable:19188 alt.solar.thermal:1400 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1986 sci.energy:58051

asolovyo@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Ariadna A Solovyova) wrote:

>Hi,

>I'm a student from Kazakhstan, a former Soviet Union republic, whose
>residents now suffer from fuel shortages. Many of my friends in Almaty
>(the capital of Kazakhstan) have been cooking on fire for a few weeks.

>I've found some exciting info and plans for solar cookers and will send
>them to my friends; I will also travel there soon and deliver materials
>that are hard to obtain there. Almaty is one of the sunniest cities in the
>former SU, so solar energy has a great potential there.

>I need more information about all kinds of solar devices (especially those
>which could be used by apartment dwellers), as well as efficient (and,
>preferably, easy to construct) woodstoves. Also, any advice on what people
>could do to help themselves in this situation would be very welcome. I
>would be thankful for pointers to books, magazines, WWW sites, mailing
>lists, commercial sources, and especially plans and designs that could be
>used to construct needed devices.

>The worst problem there is cooking and water heating, since most people
>have gas stoves, and natural gas supplies have been cut off. However,
>electricity and central heating have recently been down several times as
>well. So if anyone knows where I could get portable generators that run on
>something else than natural gas (alcohol? kerosene?), portable electric
>stoves, or anything else of that sort, please contact me! 

>If you represent a company that supplies any of those things, I could help
>you make business contacts with companies and US agencies in Almaty if you
>are interested.

>Thank you very much in advance!

>Ari Solovyova

Hello Ari,

For solar cooking information I suggest you contact Solar Cookers
International , 1724 Eleventh St. Sacramento, CA 95814. (916) 444-5379
fax or (916) 444-6616 phone.

For plans on very efficient wood cook stoves, contact Volunteers in
Technical Assistance (VITA) 1815 Lynn St., Suite 200, P.O. Box 12438,
Arlington, VA 22209-8438. (703) 276-1800 phone.  (703) 243-1865 fax.

Good luck

Regards,
Joel N. Gordes




From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sun Nov 17 12:40:53 EST 1996
Article: 1401 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Building a concrete block home?!
Date: 15 Nov 1996 12:00:08 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <56i7io$4o5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <328BF051.EF2@panacom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8780 alt.solar.thermal:1401 alt.energy.renewable:19195 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10200

Kenneth A. Davis <pipewrench@panacom.com> wrote:

>I would like to know how much materials it would take to build a 40x60
>concrete block home (just blocks and roof..no interior(walls or otherwise)?

A 1-story shoebox would have 2(40+60)8 = 1600 ft^2 of walls and 2400 ft^2 of
roof, requiring 1800 blocks for the walls and 2700 for the roof, if assembled
blocks measure 8x16/144=0.88 ft^2 each, ie 4500 blocks altogether. 

A quonset hut 20' tall in the middle with an 1885 ft^2 roof needs 2120 blocks
for the roof and 353 for the endwalls, 2473 altogether.

A quonset hut made with 1/2" of cement over 3 layers of 4' chicken wire over
4' burlap over 16 curved double 1x3 beams on 4' centers, each 64' long, needs
16x64x2 = 2048' of 1x3s at 10 cents/foot, ie $205 for wood, $185 for burlap,
about $600 for chicken wire and $100 for cement, ie $1090/2400 = 45 cents/ft^2,
ignoring the endwalls. 

>Also if anyone knows how would be the best way to insulate this type of 
>home for optimum energy efficiency?

Beadboard on the outside, with latex paint over that. Make the 60' side run
EW, cover the lower 12' with dark window screen and a $36 piece of greenhouse
poly film or a $700 single layer of polycarbonate plastic, with a 6" air gap
underneath, and allow house air to enter the gap through some holes at the
bottom and flow through the window screen sideways. Let some of the air flow
back into the house at the top while the rest flows under and heats a 20' wide
x 60' long x 2' deep (avg) pond under the ceiling, made from steel cables
supporting more chicken wire ferrocement, under a layer of EPDM rubber roofing
material. The pond could also provide hot water for the house. A shallow arc
of 4' wide foil underneath would avoid overheating the house.

Where I live, the minimum house wall insulation thickness is determined by
the solar house heating performance requirement in cloudy winter weather, as
well as the thermal mass of the house. With 2200 ft^2 of roof and endwalls with
average R-value R, we need about 24(68-30.4)2200/R = 2 million/R Btu to stay
warm on an average January day in Phila, or 10 million/R Btu for 5 cloudy days
in a row. The pond has a thermal capacity of about 20x60x2x64 = 154K Btu/F, so
if it's solar heated to say, 120 F, and it can keep the house at 68 F with 
warm air moving down to the house with a ceiling fan and a thermostat until
the pond reaches 80 F, we can store (120-80)x154K = 6.2 million Btu of useful
heat in the pond. If 6.2 million = 10 million/R, R = 1.6. A half-inch of R4
beadboard should be enough wall insulation for cloudy day-performance. 

On an average January day in Phila, this house would collect 662K Btu of heat,
while losing about 6(68-38) = 130 Btu/ft^2 through 720 ft^2 of R1 glazing,
for a net gain of 536K Btu. With R1.6 insulation, the house needs 2M/1.6
= 1.25 million Btu/day, so average day performance requires a higher level of
wall insulation, eg R5. Or a 72' long commercial plastic film greenhouse on
one end, or a glazed 60' long x 12' high strawbale wall. A reflecting pond
along the south wall would increase insolation by about 30%, raising net gain
to 730K Btu/day, and lowering the required R-value to 2 million/730K = 2.8.

One alternative might be to use lightweight insulating concrete, eg 30 pcf
roof slab concrete with an R-value of 1 per inch, made with expanded shale,
according to Bill Sypher of Norlite, Inc. (508) 263-0170 and Dr. John Ries,
P.E. of the Expanded Shale, Clay and Slate Institute (801) 272-7070.

Nick



From cobler@oro.net Sun Nov 17 12:40:54 EST 1996
Article: 1402 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!oronet!usenet
From: Bob Cobler <cobler@oro.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Energy Crisis in Kazakhstan: INFO AND ADVICE NEEDED!
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:23:21 -0800
Organization: "oronet, Penn Valley, CA"
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <328D4FC9.5B6E@oro.net>
References: <asolovyo.848023359@copper>
Reply-To: cobler@oro.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: i495.oro.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.homepower:530 alt.energy.renewable:19211 alt.solar.thermal:1402 alt.solar.photovoltaic:1987 sci.energy:58165

Ariadna A Solovyova wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm a student from Kazakhstan, a former Soviet Union republic, whose
> residents now suffer from fuel shortages. Many of my friends in Almaty
> (the capital of Kazakhstan) have been cooking on fire for a few weeks.
> 
> I've found some exciting info and plans for solar cookers and will send
> them to my friends; I will also travel there soon and deliver materials
> that are hard to obtain there. Almaty is one of the sunniest cities in the
> former SU, so solar energy has a great potential there.
> 
> I need more information about all kinds of solar devices (especially those
> which could be used by apartment dwellers), as well as efficient (and,
> preferably, easy to construct) woodstoves. Also, any advice on what people
> could do to help themselves in this situation would be very welcome. I
> would be thankful for pointers to books, magazines, WWW sites, mailing
> lists, commercial sources, and especially plans and designs that could be
> used to construct needed devices.
> 
> The worst problem there is cooking and water heating, since most people
> have gas stoves, and natural gas supplies have been cut off. However,
> electricity and central heating have recently been down several times as
> well. So if anyone knows where I could get portable generators that run on
> something else than natural gas (alcohol? kerosene?), portable electric
> stoves, or anything else of that sort, please contact me!
> 
> If you represent a company that supplies any of those things, I could help
> you make business contacts with companies and US agencies in Almaty if you
> are interested.
> 
> Thank you very much in advance!
> 
> Ari Solovyova

You should read Home Power, a very good magazine that describes all
sorts of alternative energy devices...send an email to:
hp@homepower.org.  The magazine is probably in the library.

good luck


From nomad29@aol.com Fri Dec  6 23:32:16 EST 1996
Article: 1417 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.magicnet.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: nomad29@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Ground water based heat pumps
Date: 24 Nov 1996 22:22:36 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <19961124222400.RAA28459@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

I've got a small lake in my back yard and am wondering how efficent these
now heat pumps are?  And how expensive a unit is required to heat a 2000
ft3 house?

Tom


From Mlobrien@btinternet.com Fri Dec  6 23:32:17 EST 1996
Article: 1418 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!btnet!btnet-feed1!btinternet!usenet
From: "Marc O'Brien" <Mlobrien@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,sci.environment,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
Date: 25 Nov 1996 00:47:51 GMT
Organization: BT Internet
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <01bbda47$18e64d20$LocalHost@notebook>
References: <56s79i$cfr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host-73-35-198.btinternet.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8828 sci.environment:112997 alt.solar.thermal:1418 alt.energy.renewable:19577 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10391

Sounds like an excellent Builtong machine :-)

Phil E. Tuma <petuma@mmm.com> wrote in article
<572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com>...
: A dehumidification dryer is the best way to dry clothes. Such a
system 
: uses a heat pump that can run at up to 230F.  Hot air from the
condenser 
: picks up moisture from the clothes.  This moist air then passes
over the 
: evporator where it is condensed and drained.  The air then
completes the 
: loop.  You'll note that the system completely recovers the latent
heat of 
: the moisture and so requires only about 40% of the energy of a 
: conventional system.  In fact, a dehumidification dryer can run on
a 
: standard 110V outlet.

Would you have to ensure a degree of ventilation preventing heat of
compression continually raising the chamber temperature which might
raise sat evap temp closer to dew point ?

-- 
Marc O'Brien

Industrial refrigeration mechanic


From greentro@sentex.net Fri Dec  6 23:32:18 EST 1996
Article: 1419 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.rns.net!flint.sentex.net!p26.silicon.sentex.ca!greentro
From: greentro@sentex.net (Bert Menkveld)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,sci.environment,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:20:48 LOCAL
Organization: Greentronics
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <greentro.12.00074B05@sentex.net>
References: <56s79i$cfr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com> <32959CC6.798F@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p26.silicon.sentex.ca
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8832 sci.environment:113157 alt.solar.thermal:1419 alt.energy.renewable:19595 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10411

In article <32959CC6.798F@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> James Staber <staber.industries.inc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>From: James Staber <staber.industries.inc@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:29:58 -0500

>I presume you're talking about the European condensing dryers.  Have you 
>seen any exported to the US?  Biggest problem I would be aware of is 
>capacity just as with their washers.

Well, that's a matter of your perceived "need" for capacity.  It does not seem 
to me that people in Europe necessarily have a lesser need for drying lots of 
clothes at a time than we in North America do.

BTW, our clothes dryer consists of a drying rack -- not as fast, but lots of 
capcity!  :)

--
Bert Menkveld



From sshelton@bellsouth.net Fri Dec  6 23:32:19 EST 1996
Article: 1421 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mco.bellsouth.net!news.cha.bellsouth.net!news.mia.bellsouth.net!news.msy.bellsouth.net!usenet
From: Steve Shelton <sshelton@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.energy
Subject: Gell-Cell Storage Batteries
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:21:23 -0800
Organization: BellSouth.Net
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3299F1B3.A4D@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: sshelton@bellsouth.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: d00065.msy.bellsouth.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:2006 alt.energy.homepower:539 alt.energy.renewable:19598 alt.solar.thermal:1421 sci.energy:59189

We have some 6 volt batteries to recycle.  We would like to get
them into the hands of people who would reuse them in a solar electric 
system of any sort.

	They are of the Gell-Cell variety and are in great condition.
We have 150 of these units and they are schedules to be recycled for the 
lead content and destroyed.


	We have tested the units completely and have found them to be in
excellent condition.

	We can arrange to have them shipped to you from New Orleans, La.

	If you are interested , please reply with your location and how 
many of the units that you might need.  

	We have already had parties interested in some of the units but still
have many unspoken for .

	More information is available for interested persons.


		Thanks for any replies,

	
`		Steve


From nagle@netcom.com Fri Dec  6 23:32:20 EST 1996
Article: 1422 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!nagle
From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: 12 Volt DC pump for solar water heating - Suppliers ?
Message-ID: <nagleE1GqqI.DzM@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
References: <LhM+aNAVyjmyEwzH@wirrleac.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:47:06 GMT
Lines: 12
Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com

Chris Laughton <chris@wirrleac.demon.co.uk> writes:
>From a back issue of Home Power, I note the succesful use of a March 809
>12 Volt DC pump directly connected to a 20 Watt PV module, to circulate
>a solar water heating system.

>My attempts to source a supplier of these, or similar pumps, for myself
>in the UK has not resulted in success. Any further leads both here or
>abroad most appreciated.

     Real Goods.

					John Nagle


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Dec  6 23:32:21 EST 1996
Article: 1423 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: aquarium, on limited energy
Date: 26 Nov 1996 06:13:54 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 115
Message-ID: <57ejdi$f0g@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <david-2411960945370001@bb-4.dialup.polaristel.net> <57ccst$7gq@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <david-2511961716380001@bb-6.dialup.polaristel.net> <329b61d5.18621880@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:2009 alt.solar.thermal:1423 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10413

Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>>>...A 110 VAC heater attached to a 12 VDC source might work fine with an
>>> aquarium with some added insulation.

>>I think I will try insulating it.

Good. Double glass on the front and 4" of styrofoam or some foil-faced
foamboard all round a 1x2x2' aquarium gives it a thermal conductance of about
4ft^2/R2 + 14ft^2/R20 = 2.7 Btu/hr-F, so keeping it 80 F in a 68 F room would
require an average of about (80-68)x2.7/3.41 = 9.5 watts, plus a little more
for the heat that leaves via the moist air bubbling through the water.

>>Do you mean, an AC heater attached directly to a 12V source...

Sure.

>>Will it work at a much lower voltage?

I would guess so.

>Why?

Aquarium heaters I've seen have wires glowing red, something like an
incandescent lamp. The resistance of a lamp filament decreases a lot with
decreasing temperature (and voltage) so the power dissipated (V^2/R) does not
drop nearly so much as in a linear resistor, with lower-than-normal voltage, as
R decreases with temperature. Heaters with red nichrome wires change resistance
less than lamps with incandescent tungsten filaments, but it's change in the
same direction. And you might only need 10% of the nominal power. 

>...the contacts might arc a bit more

That may or may not be a problem. 

>(resistor and capacitor in series, across contacts, might work well...

I don't think that snubber circuit would help. More mechanical hysteresis
might, but that would also increase the dead band.  
 
>The problem is the voltage.  Assuming that the resistance of a heater
>is linear (and it isn't!), then running a 100 watt 120 volt heater on
>12 volts will only give you 10 watts...

Sounds like enough. Nichrome is more linear than copper or tungsten over
temperature. Is red-hot 1200 F? Nichrome wire resistance at 650 C is
(650-20)x0.00017 = 0.107 times more than at 20 C. Tungsten wire resistance
at 2600 C is (2600-20)0.0045 = 11.6 times more than at 20 C.
 
>You'd have to rewire a heater so it had about a tenth of the amount
>of wire in it...

Good idea. Short out part of the wire or wind more wire around it or shorten
it or add a center tap, if necessary. But that probably isn't necessary.

>Really, the resistance of a heater isn't linear with voltage, so how
>much you get, iirc, will be a bit less.

It seems to me that an incandescent light bulb is approximately a constant
power device, but a heater with a glowing nichrome wire is not. 

Now, if the back of the aqarium faced a south window, you could hinge the
foamboard on the back at the bottom, and tilt it back with something like
a string wound around Grainger's $31.05 2L009 reversible permanent magnet
1/125 HP gearmotor (1.4 A @ 12 VDC, 17 rpm, 30 in-lb), with one of their
$6.46 2E245 110 F snap-action thermostats in a small glazed box painted dark
on the inside, exposed to the sun, in series with their $16.55 5E266
adjustable thermostat next to the glass, under the insulation on the east
or west side, set to a slightly higher temperature than the aquarium heater,
to solar heat the aquarium. 

That 5E266 thermostat might make a good alternative to the aquarium heater
thermostat, for 12 VDC switching, since it is rated for switching a 22 amp
resistive load at 110 VAC, or a 3/4 HP inductive load. It has a fixed
differential of 2 F. What temperature range do the fish require?

Suppose they can live in 75-85 F water. The aquarium has an RC thermal time
constant of about 10 gal x 8 lb/gal x 1 Btu/F-lb/2.7 Btu/hr-F = 30 hours.
If we warm the water to 85 F with the sun, it will cool to 75 F when
75 = 68 + (85-68)exp(-t/30), ie 7/17 = exp(-t/30) or ln(7/27) = -t/30 or
t = -30ln(7/17) = 20 hours. If the aquarium were twice as large in every
dimension, it would have 4 times the thermal conductance and 8 times the
volume of water, with a thermal time constant of 60 hours, so our fishy
friends could go for almost 2 days with no sun, before requiring backup heat.

If a narrower temperature range or thermal storage for more cloudy days
in a row were needed, we could either increase the size of the aquarium, or
add another higher temperature thermal storage aquarium containing no fish
or a solar closet to the back of the first one. What would the steady state
temperature of this thermal storage aquarium be in January in Philadelphia,
with about 1000 Btu/ft^2 falling on a south window over a 6 hour day, and
800 Btu/ft^2 passing through 2 layers of aquarium polycarbonate plastic,
if the aquarium were surrounded by R10 insulation at night, in a 68 F room?
Here's the approximate thermal situation:

1600 Btu = 6hr(T-68)4ft^2/R2       south wall, day
         +18hr(T-68)4ft^2/R20      south wall, night
         +24hr(T-68)6ft^2/R20      sides and top, 24 hours
         +24hrx9.5Wx3.41Btu/Wh     back, 24 hours, or

823 Btu = (T-68)(12+3.6+7.2) = 22.8(T-68), so T = 68 + 823/22.8 = 104 F. 

The fish aquarium needs about 450 Btu/day to stay at 75 F. If the heat store 
aquarium can keep the fish aquarium at 75 F until the heat store reaches 80 F,
it would store about (104-80)10x8 = 1920 Btu of useful heat, enough for about
4 days at a constant fish temperature of 75 F.

If we made the heat store an insulated back part of the fish aquarium, and
heated the fish aquarium from the glazing waste heat as the sun heated that
warmer part of the aquarium, in a very small-scale solar thermal cogeneration
system, we would have better performance...

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Fri Dec  6 23:32:22 EST 1996
Article: 1424 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.magicnet.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strawbale VS Rammed Earth
Date: 27 Nov 1996 10:56:40 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <57hobo$78@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3299BF09.7308@abstract.com> <329B4D66.B8B@a.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8842 alt.energy.renewable:19625 alt.solar.thermal:1424 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10423

Eric Brown  <pookie@a.crl.com> wrote:
 
>I was in Houston this past summer, and there were definitely
>periods where it wasn't cooling off at night, so strawbale should
>be more effective [than rammed earth.]

In what sense? It seems to me that strawbales are basically insulation,
without much thermal mass, which may be good for heating a house, but
natural cooling needs thermal mass, inside insulation, eg to ventilate
the house at night and button it up and keep it cool during the day, and
absorb human infrared radiation.

>(I'm freezing in my Austin apt right now, which is concrete although not
>with the thermal mass of thick rammed earth walls).

Concrete has lots of thermal mass. About 24 Btu/F-ft^3 I think, vs water or
steel at 62, or rammed earth at (?). But it seems to me it needs outsulation,
for a long RC time constant, on the order of 200 hours, to make an energy
efficient house. Consider a 16' concrete cube, with 6" solid walls, with R20
insulation all round: RC = R20/(6x256ft^2)x6x256ft^2x12 Btu/ft^2 = 240 hours
or 10 days :-) Heat it up during sunny weather to 75 F, and let it cool off
for a few cloudy days in a row in Austin in January, where the average outdoor
temp is 48.8 F, and the indoor temperature T = 48.8 + (75-48.8)exp(-t/240),
where t is in hours...

68 = 48.8 + (75-48.8)exp(-t/240) when t=-240ln((68-48.8)/(75-48.8))=74 hours,
ie just over 3 cloudy days in a row. Not a bad solar house... It could be
improved by somehow insulating 1 or 2 walls on the inside, and keeping them 
warmer than room temperature, or using water instead of concrete.

>Overhang design would be more important for rammed earth to shield from the
>summer sun and use the winter sun.

I don't think winter sun shining onto a rammed earth wall will do much
to heat a house, without glazing. With glazing, it makes a poor Trombe wall,
and Trombe walls are already poor solar collectors, because they store solar
heat in a thermal mass wall during the day, and let most of that stored heat
leak out through the low-thermal-resistance glazing at night. A Trombe wall is
also a thermal disaster on a cloudy day, since it is such a poor insulator.

Far better to put some glazing over some sort of dark colored insulation,
with an air gap, and let solar-warmed air flow into the thermal mass of the
house during the day, and let the air gap and glazing get cold at night.

>...when you do use a/c or heat, more thermal mass means more energy required.

Seems to me it makes no difference, if the indoor temperature stays the same 
all day. But thermal mass is a big plus for solar heating and natural cooling.
 
Nick



From hbr11@mail.dotcom.fr Fri Dec  6 23:32:23 EST 1996
Article: 1426 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!wanadoo.fr!usenet
From: John Brown <hbr11@mail.dotcom.fr>
Newsgroups: alt.solar,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.solaris.x86,alt.soulmates,alt.sources,alt.sources.d,alt.sources.mac,alt.sources.wanted,alt.sport,alt.sport.basketball,alt.sport.bowling,alt.sport.foosball,alt.sport.horse-racing,alt.sport.jet-ski,alt.sport.officiating,alt.sport.paintball,alt.sport.pool,alt.sport.weightlifting,alt.sports,alt.sports.basminton,alt.sports.baseball,alt.sports.basketball,alt.sports.college,alt.sport.college.acc,alt.sport.college.big-east,alt.sports.football,alt.sports.football.pro,alt.sports.hockey.nhl,alt.stagecraft,alt.starfleet,alt.starfleet.rpg,alt.startrek,alt.startrek.bajoran,alt.startrek.borg,alt.startrek.carddassian,alt.startrek.creative,alt.startrek.creative.erotica,alt.startrek.klingon,alt.startrek.romulan,alt.startrek.tos.trekmuse
Subject: "THE" site
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:58:04 +0100
Organization: HBR
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <329C029C.4CC@mail.dotcom.fr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: yellow-tln-56.wanadoo.fr
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E [fr]-NAVIGATEU  (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar:7 alt.solar.photovoltaic:2014 alt.solar.thermal:1426 alt.solaris.x86:1172 alt.sources:11698 alt.sources.d:5329 alt.sources.mac:6524 alt.sources.wanted:9228 alt.sport:103 alt.sport.basketball:47 alt.sport.bowling:36479 alt.sport.foosball:3135 alt.sport.horse-racing:10262 alt.sport.jet-ski:17643 alt.sport.officiating:7082 alt.sport.paintball:17124 alt.sport.pool:6645 alt.sport.weightlifting:2120 alt.sports:112 alt.sports.baseball:105 alt.sports.basketball:56 alt.sports.college:49 alt.sports.football:192 alt.sports.football.pro:978 alt.sports.hockey.nhl:275 alt.stagecraft:7896 alt.starfleet:362 alt.starfleet.rpg:54480 alt.startrek:5123 alt.startrek.bajoran:2202 alt.startrek.borg:2900 alt.startrek.creative:48288 alt.startrek.creative.erotica:4157 alt.startrek.klingon:13480 alt.startrek.romulan:2456 alt.startrek.tos.trekmuse:440

More information :
http://members.aol.com/hbr11


From wstewart@patriot.net Fri Dec  6 23:32:24 EST 1996
Article: 1427 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!portal.gmu.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strawbale VS Rammed Earth
Followup-To: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:39:48 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <329CDF54.1F2@patriot.net>
References: <3299BF09.7308@abstract.com> <329B4D66.B8B@a.crl.com> <57hobo$78@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-9.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8849 alt.energy.renewable:19652 alt.solar.thermal:1427 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10446

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Eric Brown  <pookie@a.crl.com> wrote:
> 
> >I was in Houston this past summer, and there were definitely
> >periods where it wasn't cooling off at night, so strawbale should
> >be more effective [than rammed earth.]
> 
> In what sense? It seems to me that strawbales are basically insulation,
> without much thermal mass, which may be good for heating a house, but
> natural cooling needs thermal mass, inside insulation, eg to ventilate
> the house at night and button it up and keep it cool during the day, and
> absorb human infrared radiation.

But if the temperature doesn't cool during the night, then you have a
huge hot thermal mass; if you chose to turn on the air conditioner, it
would take forever to cool.
Large thermal mass interiors are best suited to climates with daily
temperature swings above and below the comfort level.
 
> >(I'm freezing in my Austin apt right now, which is concrete although not
> >with the thermal mass of thick rammed earth walls).

Concrete is a very poor insulator.

> >Overhang design would be more important for rammed earth to shield from the
> >summer sun and use the winter sun.
> 
> I don't think winter sun shining onto a rammed earth wall will do much
> to heat a house, without glazing. With glazing, it makes a poor Trombe wall,
> and Trombe walls are already poor solar collectors, because they store solar
> heat in a thermal mass wall during the day, and let most of that stored heat
> leak out through the low-thermal-resistance glazing at night. A Trombe wall is
> also a thermal disaster on a cloudy day, since it is such a poor insulator.

Most current Trombe wall designs include retractable insulation for use
at night or on rainy days.  Such insulation places Trombe walls on the
forefront of passive solar techniques.

> Far better to put some glazing over some sort of dark colored insulation,
> with an air gap, and let solar-warmed air flow into the thermal mass of the
> house during the day, and let the air gap and glazing get cold at night.

As long as the air doesn't become to hot during the daytime.  If you
were to pass the heated air through baffles in the walls, that would
provide even, subtle changes in the indoor air temperatures.  One
problem with some passively heated solar houses are the uncomfortable
swings in air temperature.  Large amounts of interior thermal mass may
help mitigate this to some degree, though the air temperature would have
to be significantly higher in order to gain any appreciable heat
transfer.

Another solution to this problem is to have more wall insulation,
substantial south facing glass, water walls just inside the windows, and
insulated shades that could be drawn at night.  The window space overall
would be the same as a normal house, with much of the increased south
window space borrowed from the east, west, and north walls.  The water
walls just inside the south windows would directly absorb much of the
solar heat gain, thereby avoiding the overheating of interior air.  The
insulated shades would reduce the heat loss at night, and can be used on
ordinary windows anyway.

 
> >...when you do use a/c or heat, more thermal mass means more energy required.
> 
> Seems to me it makes no difference, if the indoor temperature stays the same
> all day.

If that temperature is too high for comfort, then AC is needed to reduce
it.  If the A/C also has to cool the walls in order to reduce convection
and reradiation, then more energy is required.

>But thermal mass is a big plus for solar heating and natural cooling.

In instances, certainly not as a general rule. 
 
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From ahaffner@aft.sn.no Fri Dec  6 23:32:25 EST 1996
Article: 1428 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!online.no!sn.no!usenet
From: ahaffner@aft.sn.no (Andreas Haffner)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Stirling Motors
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:53:22 GMT
Organization: (private)
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <32a0baa1.13466537@nntp.sn.no>
References: <32A0566D.593@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nm14-9.ppp.sn.no
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

John Dunaj <ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net> wrote on Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:44:45
-0500:

>Are there any manufactures of small < 5 h.p. Stirling Motors out there.

My homepage can direct you to some sites. But there are few - very few I
think - which you could buy right over the counter. Small demonstration and
tøy units are easier to get.

Andreas Haffner

---------------------------------------------
This is my own opinion!.......?.......I think
Homepage..........http://home.sn.no/~ahaffner


From tjebb@srd.bt.co.uk Fri Dec  6 23:32:26 EST 1996
Article: 1429 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!goliath.montclair.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!usenet
From: tjebb@srd.bt.co.uk (Tim Jebb)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,sci.environment,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
Date: 2 Dec 1996 13:35:00 GMT
Organization: BT
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <57ulu4$b06@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>
References: <56s79i$cfr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com> <32959CC6.798F@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> <greentro.12.00074B05@sentex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: phao.srd.bt.co.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.14
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8854 sci.environment:113610 alt.solar.thermal:1429 alt.energy.renewable:19673 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10460

>>I presume you're talking about the European condensing dryers.  Have 
you 

The only condensing dryers I've seen are ones which use cold water, and 
are in fact combination washer-dryers. However, I've not been looking 
very hard, not knowing that such beasts exist except in my imagination. 
Can you actually buy them?


>>seen any exported to the US?  Biggest problem I would be aware of is 
>>capacity just as with their washers.
>
>Well, that's a matter of your perceived "need" for capacity.  It does 
not seem 
>to me that people in Europe necessarily have a lesser need for drying 
lots of 
>clothes at a time than we in North America do.

Not true. It's well known that Americans sweat more than we do :-)



From pookie@a.crl.com Fri Dec  6 23:32:27 EST 1996
Article: 1430 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsrelay.courtave.net!polo.iquest.com!news3.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!usenet
From: Eric Brown <pookie@a.crl.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strawbale VS Rammed Earth
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:54:12 -0600
Organization: Syzygy, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <329D1AF4.605F@a.crl.com>
References: <3299BF09.7308@abstract.com> <329B4D66.B8B@a.crl.com> <57hobo$78@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
Reply-To: pookie@a.crl.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: a120012.aus1.as.crl.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8863 alt.energy.renewable:19728 alt.solar.thermal:1430 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10488

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Eric Brown  <pookie@a.crl.com> wrote:
> 
> >I was in Houston this past summer, and there were definitely
> >periods where it wasn't cooling off at night, so strawbale should
> >be more effective [than rammed earth.]
> 
> In what sense? It seems to me that strawbales are basically insulation,
> without much thermal mass, which may be good for heating a house, but
> natural cooling needs thermal mass, inside insulation, eg to ventilate
> the house at night and button it up and keep it cool during the day, and
> absorb human infrared radiation.
> 
> Seems to me it makes no difference, if the indoor temperature stays the same
> all day. But thermal mass is a big plus for solar heating and natural cooling.

Nick, what I'm saying is exactly that -- strawbales are basically
insulation.
I don't think you saw what Gary was asking about.  He is concerned about
rammed
earth in the dead of summer, not the optimal conditions of warm
days/cool nights
or cold days/solar heat that you're talking about.  Uninsulated thermal
mass is
a great heat source/heat sink, which can be liability in the wrong
conditions.

Nice formulas tho... :)

Eric


From line.blytt@ijvf.nlh.no Fri Dec  6 23:32:28 EST 1996
Article: 1431 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!usenet
From: Line Diana Blytt <line.blytt@ijvf.nlh.no>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 10:09:03 +0100
Organization: Agricultural university of Norway
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <32A6912F.2D75@ijvf.nlh.no>
References: <56s79i$cfr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com> <32959CC6.798F@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> <greentro.12.00074B05@sentex.net> <57ulu4$b06@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>
Reply-To: line.blytt@ijvf.nlh.no
NNTP-Posting-Host: aasnett-dhcp-65.nlh.no
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8871 alt.solar.thermal:1431 alt.energy.renewable:19757 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10524

Tim Jebb wrote:
> 
> >>I presume you're talking about the European condensing dryers.  
> >>Have you
> 
>The only condensing dryers I've seen are ones which use cold water, >and are in fact combination washer-dryers. However, I've not been >looking very hard, not knowing that such beasts exist except in my >imagination. Can you actually buy them?

> >>seen any exported to the US?  Biggest problem I would be aware of is
> >>capacity just as with their washers.

> >Well, that's a matter of your perceived "need" for capacity.  It does > >not seem
> >to me that people in Europe necessarily have a lesser need for drying > >lots of clothes at a time than we in North America do.

> Not true. It's well known that Americans sweat more than we do :-)

I don´t know what you can buy in thee US but in Norway the condensing 
dryers I belive have half of the marked. They have been for sale at 
least 5-10 years and are not too expensive either. A full 
washer-machine, about 4-5 kg dry clothes, takes about 2 hours to dry and 
"produce" desilised water in a container which you have to empty. On hot 
summer dayes it is not so efficient. It produces heat (not wapour) so a 
closed  small room isn´t a ideal placement. In winter time the condense 
dryer works very good and the heat is a welcome side-effect.

Line Diana Blytt


From rdpeter@nwi.net Fri Dec  6 23:32:28 EST 1996
Article: 1432 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!ratty.wolfe.net!usenet
From: Ryan Duston Peterson <rdpeter@nwi.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strawbale VS Rammed Earth
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 01:16:09 -0800
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <329EA9D9.3A6B@nwi.net>
References: <3299BF09.7308@abstract.com> <329B4D66.B8B@a.crl.com> <57hobo$78@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nw-ts1-p12.nwinternet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:8876 alt.energy.renewable:19766 alt.solar.thermal:1432 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10526

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Eric Brown  <pookie@a.crl.com> wrote:
> 
> >I was in Houston this past summer, and there were definitely
> >periods where it wasn't cooling off at night, so strawbale should
> >be more effective [than rammed earth.]
> 
> In what sense? It seems to me that strawbales are basically insulation,
> without much thermal mass, which may be good for heating a house, but
> natural cooling needs thermal mass, inside insulation, eg to ventilate
> the house at night and button it up and keep it cool during the day, and
> absorb human infrared radiation.
> 
> >(I'm freezing in my Austin apt right now, which is concrete although not
> >with the thermal mass of thick rammed earth walls).
> 
> Concrete has lots of thermal mass. About 24 Btu/F-ft^3 I think, vs water or
> steel at 62, or rammed earth at (?). But it seems to me it needs outsulation,
> for a long RC time constant, on the order of 200 hours, to make an energy
> efficient house. Consider a 16' concrete cube, with 6" solid walls, with R20
> insulation all round: RC = R20/(6x256ft^2)x6x256ft^2x12 Btu/ft^2 = 240 hours
> or 10 days :-) Heat it up during sunny weather to 75 F, and let it cool off
> for a few cloudy days in a row in Austin in January, where the average outdoor
> temp is 48.8 F, and the indoor temperature T = 48.8 + (75-48.8)exp(-t/240),
> where t is in hours...
> 
> 68 = 48.8 + (75-48.8)exp(-t/240) when t=-240ln((68-48.8)/(75-48.8))=74 hours,
> ie just over 3 cloudy days in a row. Not a bad solar house... It could be
> improved by somehow insulating 1 or 2 walls on the inside, and keeping them
> warmer than room temperature, or using water instead of concrete.
> 
> >Overhang design would be more important for rammed earth to shield from the
> >summer sun and use the winter sun.
> 
> I don't think winter sun shining onto a rammed earth wall will do much
> to heat a house, without glazing. With glazing, it makes a poor Trombe wall,
> and Trombe walls are already poor solar collectors, because they store solar
> heat in a thermal mass wall during the day, and let most of that stored heat
> leak out through the low-thermal-resistance glazing at night. A Trombe wall is
> also a thermal disaster on a cloudy day, since it is such a poor insulator.
> 
> Far better to put some glazing over some sort of dark colored insulation,
> with an air gap, and let solar-warmed air flow into the thermal mass of the
> house during the day, and let the air gap and glazing get cold at night.
> 
> >...when you do use a/c or heat, more thermal mass means more energy required.
> 
> Seems to me it makes no difference, if the indoor temperature stays the same
> all day. But thermal mass is a big plus for solar heating and natural cooling.
> 
> Nick


   Nick,

    your my GOD. I've been reading you for at least 3 months now.
You know anything about everything. I hope someday to be just like you!


From wstewart@patriot.net Fri Dec 13 11:29:18 EST 1996
Article: 1433 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar thermal storage walls
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 07:19:51 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <32AC03E7.6A27@patriot.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-1.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:19845 alt.solar.thermal:1433

I'm in the latter stages of designing my passive solar modular home, and
I am looking for designs of solar thermal storage walls that have
worked,
or are even just designs that people are planning to someday use.   The
house has 5 sets of a 3 window group; each window is 3'x6.5'.  The
length of my present wall design will be around 9', width 8", and height
2.5'.  Material at present is stainless steel, welded at all joints (one
piece folded together), with fittings for filling and draining the
water.  The surface exposed to the sun will be painted with an
absortivity=.90 emissivity=.10 paint to avoid reradiation.  The walls
will be placed 4" inside the south windows.

I choose water because of the high heat density, though I am willing to
consider other suggestions.  I choose the rectangular shape for
aesthetic purposes, because my wife wouldn't consider the available
cylinders.  The wall can be painted or wallpapered, etc.

I have considered other designs, such as the type Nick Pine mentions,
and
have settled on the present overall passive solar design for a number of
reasons.

Any thoughts, anyone?

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From andyh@access.usa.net Tue Dec 17 00:19:28 EST 1996
Article: 1434 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.usa.net!earth!not-for-mail
From: andyh@access.usa.net (Andy Hollister)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Looking for solar plans
Date: 11 Dec 1996 15:51:15 GMT
Organization: Internet Express (800-592-1240 customer service)
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <58ml9j$2ph@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: networker.usa.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

Hello,
I saw a diagram a few years ago outlining a thermal solar system that used
ammonia and water in the collection loop, in the middle it transfered the
energy to the water, returned the ammonia to the collection loop and piped
the water to the generating loop.
It was done this way because ammonia absorbed the solar energy more
efficiently (or quickly), but the water has the heat storage capacity.
I would like to find the original reference, further research or working
plans. If anyone has this data please post or email me.
Thanks!
Andy
andyh@usa.net
 -- 



From amitsur@netvision.net.il Tue Dec 17 00:19:30 EST 1996
Article: 1435 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news-hk.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.NetVision.net.il!news
From: amitsur@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Venting a dryer indoors
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 96 16:41:49 PDT
Organization: NetVision LTD.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <NEWTNews.850092379.15890.amitsur@dialup.netvision.net.il>
References: <56s79i$cfr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <572ljs$em6@dawn.mmm.com> <32959CC6.798F@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> <greentro.12.00074B05@sentex.net> <57ulu4$b06@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>  <32A6912F.2D75@ijvf.nlh.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts010p15.pop2a.netvision.net.il
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10665 alt.solar.thermal:1435 alt.energy.renewable:19983 alt.architecture.alternative:8930



we manufactor dryers based on refrigeration cycle.the 
capacity is from 10 liter per day up to 42 liter per day
and it used in u.k and new-ziland. if you want more 
details then e-mail me

amitsur levy-israel



From Mick@mjwc.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 17 13:22:27 EST 1996
Article: 1438 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mjwc.demon.co.uk!Mick
From: Mick Whittingham <Mick@mjwc.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Sterling engines
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:18:14 +0000
Organization: MJW CONSULTANCY
Lines: 6
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <oRFYgKAGZXtyEwMB@mjwc.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mjwc.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mjwc.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.10 <sLPMSEoIQViSFuK7q0fJfT+umG>

Has any one in this group had any experience with Sterling engines to
produce electricity from sun light?
If not can any one point me in the right direction for information.
-- 
Best regards
Mick Whittingham


From morse@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_DOMAIN_FILE Tue Jan 21 11:37:02 EST 1997
Article: 1454 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realtime.net!einstein!morse
From: morse@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_DOMAIN_FILE (Morse)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Van heat (was Re: The First Oppression)
Followup-To: alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Date: 21 Dec 1996 18:03:58 GMT
Organization: CyberTects: Solar Soyuz Zaibatsu
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <59h8qe$a9s@news3.realtime.net>
References: <58pht8$12da@news3.realtime.net> <58vd5n$115q@news3.realtime.net> <59es1j$l2g@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <59fl1b$j54@news3.realtime.net> <59gihl$647@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: einstein.ssz.com
X-RTcode: 834dfc2c328e7f41f1bc261a
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.photovoltaic:2085 alt.solar.thermal:1454 alt.energy.renewable:20294


Hi

My email address is morse@ssz.com.  Please do email your stuff
to me, because it will eventually disappear from the newsgroup and
I have a really primitive computer setup and can't download stuff
easily.

Frankly, the idea of solar-heating your waterbed in your van
just sounds like hippie heaven, doesn't it?  I particularly like
the idea that you can fill up the bed every day and park the van in
the sun and not drag the water around.  For ecological purposes,
though, shouldn't you store the water and refill the bed with it?
Any ideas on how that could best be done?

As you can see, I'm quite unhandy and uninformed about such
matters.  The van is not mine personally, but belongs to a friend.
He now tells me that solar hearing in his van is not practical
because it has tinted windows.  I still think the subject is
interesting and promising. Does anyone have a suggestion about
those tinted windows?  How many would have to be replaced?

Kate



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Jan 21 11:37:03 EST 1997
Article: 1455 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: solar closet diagnostics
Date: 22 Dec 1996 08:19:26 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <59jcgu$1m@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:10824 alt.architecture.alternative:9031 alt.solar.thermal:1455 alt.energy.renewable:20338

Meanwhile, in Arizona:

>Well after adding the blower, water, and square feet of surface area, the
>closet didn't seem to improve at all. It's still 70 F to 72 F in the mornings.

Hmmm.

>So now I'm thinking that the insulation and thermal bridging is the problem.

Air leaks might be part of the problem as well. An 8' R20 cube would have a
thermal resistance of R20/(6x64ft^2) = 0.052 "Ohms" if it were airtight. With
a 10 cfm leak, ie a 0.1 "Ohm" shunt resistor, this drops about 35% to 0.034
"Ohms." The natural "stack effect" airflow inside an 8' tall chimney with
2 A ft^2 holes at the top and bottom is about 16.6 A sqrt(8'dT), where dT
is the inside/outside Farenheit temperature difference. If dT=70F-30F=40F,
10 cfm=16.6Asqrt(320), so a couple of holes or cracks with area A = 0.034 ft^2
ie about 2" x 2.5", or 8' (one side) x 1/16", or 32' (the perimeter) x 1/64"
might let 10 cfm leak through the closet...

Air leaks can be reduced by covering the inside of the box with large pieces
of plastic film, carefully sealed (taped, caulked, etc) at every edge. It's
also important to keep moisture out of the sunspace, as we are discovering
in the hostel cabin project, where moisture is coming up out of the ground
in the sunspace and condensing on the inside of the glazing, reflecting sun
out from the glazing, reducing the solar gain, and letting more heat flow out
of the glazing via condensation than convection. The frost on the inside of
the hostel sunspace plastic glazing melted at about 10 AM yesterday, and the
unfinished sunspace with no insulation behind it heated up to about 75 F when
it was 30 F outside, a good sign. But we lost an hour of sun. It would help
to seal the edges of the vapor barrier under the gravel floor better. This
is probably much less of a problem in Arizona...

The Energy-Crafted Home spec contains a diagram showing two 10x10' painted
walls, one with no holes, passing 1 cup of water per year via water vapor
diffustion, and one with a single 1" hole in the middle, passing 20 gallons
of water per year via air leakage. If this were an R20 wall, and that 160
pounds of water passed through the hole over a 160 day heating season, an 
extra 1000 Btu/day or 42 Btu/hr of latent heatflow would pass through the
wall, 7 times more than the 6 Btu/hr that would flow through the wall's basic
thermal resistance (R20/100ft^2), or the 2.4 Btu/hr that would flow through
a perfect R50 strawbale wall. That water might condense in the insulation
and rot the wall, too...

All these should be diagnosable problems, like fixing a very simple car,
with some understanding and prediction of how the system should work, and
some measurements and perhaps some experiments, like moving the water
containers out of the closet and putting a 600 watt electrical heater with 
a fan inside overnight, with it all closed up, and measuring the inside and
outside air temps, to estimate the thermal resistance of the closet. A perfect
R20 8' cube would have a temperature difference of 600x3.4x0.052 = 106 F. An
alternative is to measure the self-cooling rate with the thermal mass inside.
Or exhaust air from the closet through a large hole with a window fan on a
cold day and find incoming air leaks through cracks, etc, by feeling all over
the inside for cold drafts or moving a cigarette (or incense, for new age
solar enthusiasts) slowly around the inside edges, and watching the smoke.

Another possible problem is heat that radiates back out through the closet
glazing. This wasn't a problem in last winter's system with 2 layers of black
aluminum window screen under polycarbonate glazing, but it could be more
serious with polyethylene glazing with no mesh absorber. Steve Baer says
it's easy to tell how efficient a solar collector is: the surface should
look dark, and the glazing should be cool. One might measure the input/output
closet air temp difference and flow. How can slow airflow be measured
accurately and inexpensively? Last winter, we used our fan pressure/volume
curve and a $50 0-0.25" H2O Magnehelic air pressure meter to estimate airflow
volume. We were pleased that the pressure difference across the fan was only
equivalent to a column of water 0.05" tall, which corresponds to the specified
free airflow spec of 560 cfm from a 4C688 Grainger fan. That pressure didn't
change at all when we opened the large door to the closet, so the water
containers were not constricting the airflow at all, compared to the airpath
with 4 90 degree turns.

> Straw Bales would probably be the best solution to this problem, but they
>are expensive this time of year...

There are other ways to prevent thermal bridging. For instance, we will use
fiberglass insulation in the hostel cabin, stapled between vertical 2x4 studs
on 2' centers, with some poly film over that and some horizontal 1x3's on 2'
centers over that, on the inside to act as nailers for the eventual drywall,
so instead of having the 8'x1.5" length of the studs (R3/1ft^2 = 3 "Ohms")
as thermal shunts every 2', we will only have 5 little 1.5"x2.5" points of
contact (R4/0.13ft^2 = 31 "Ohms") in parallel with the larger resistor
consisting of the 8' x 22.5" R20 insulation (R20/15ft^2 = 1.33 "Ohms"),
increasing the equivalent parallel resistance (Rp=R1xR2/(R1+R2)) by about
40% from 0.92 "Ohms" to 1.28 "Ohms."

Something has to be done about the 72 ft^2 of single pane glazing in the
cabin too, which is a huge thermal shunt. All this will take time, and
winter is now half over... :-( 

>BTW, I got tired of waiting for the closet to improve, so I started using
>it last night. (I was cold :)) So I drilled a couple of 4" holes through the
>wall from my room into the closet, at the top and bottom. My room which has
>been getting down to the low 50's a night, was a nice 60 F this morning when
>I got up! The closet dropped 2 F from its normal morning temp.

Sounds nice. You are way ahead of us at the moment...

> I also got the Grainger catalog, and will be looking for a little 4" fan
>when I get time.

A 4" fan sounds wimpy and noisy for this job. A 50 cfm fan will only transfer
about 500 Btu/hr, about 150 watts of heat, with a air temp difference of 10 F.
And fan efficiency increases with diameter: Grainger's 4" 1765 rpm 4C548 fan
uses 9 watts to move 55 cfm, with a max air temp spec of 120 F, while their
10" 1650 rpm 4C688 fan uses 36 watts to move 560 cfm, with an air temp spec of
149 F. How about using that $61 fan, with a $16 5C343 speed controller, so you
can vary the speed and power and noise, and enlarge the hole if you need to?

Grainger's $139 3C691 56" 265 rpm 110 W ceiling fan moves 25,500 cfm :-)

>Gotta go now...

Good luck :-)

Nick



From crdreyer@oxford.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:04 EST 1997
Article: 1481 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news
From: Chris Dreyer <crdreyer@oxford.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Nuclear Reactions in Stars
Date: 10 Jan 1997 04:34:48 GMT
Organization: iSTAR internet Incorporated
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <5b4gt8$9p6@nr1.toronto.istar.net>
Reply-To: crdreyer@oxford.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: nnt-181.oxford.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.sci.planetary:14687 alt.solar.photovoltaic:2139 alt.solar.thermal:1481

'Evening everyone! If anyone is interested in taking a look at a new
section on a site I have on the Nuclear Reactions in Stars, I'd be
interested in any comments that I can get. It's for an OAC (OAC is
another way of saying grade 13 in Canada) Chemistry project. It's not
complete as of yet, but should be done within the next week! Anyone
who's interested, take a look! Thanks!

Chris Dreyer

http://www.oxford.net/~crdreyer/stars/
crdreyer@oxford.net


From hpolvi@interlog.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:05 EST 1997
Article: 1482 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news2.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!dogman
From: hpolvi@interlog.com (Henry Polvi)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: SOLAR COLLECTING TUBES - BLACK OR SHINY?
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 97 09:44:04 GMT
Organization: InterLog Internet Services
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dogman.interlog.com
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1482

Recently i observed a solar collecting device consisting of concentric tubes,
the inner contains water to be heated, this has a relfective mirror like coating.
The annular space is vacuum, the outer tube is clear pyrex glass.

My question, wouldn't it work better if the inner tube was coated flat black instead of being reflective?
The black is more absorptive and thus more heat should transfer to the water inside, no?

Opinions anyone please?

Henry Polvi
Toronto, ON



From hws@csgi.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:06 EST 1997
Article: 1483 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.137.48.149!news7.agis.net!agis!newspeer1.agis.net!agis!news1.dn.net!dca-dyn-1-20.ppp.dn.net!user
From: hws@csgi.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: SOLAR COLLECTING TUBES - BLACK OR SHINY?
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 09:24:40 -0500
Organization: digitalNATION high speed internet
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <hws-1201970924400001@dca-dyn-1-20.ppp.dn.net>
References: <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dca-dyn-1-20.ppp.dn.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1483

In article <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>, hpolvi@interlog.com (Henry
Polvi) wrote:

> Recently i observed a solar collecting device consisting of concentric tubes,
> the inner contains water to be heated, this has a relfective mirror like
coating.
> The annular space is vacuum, the outer tube is clear pyrex glass.
> 
> My question, wouldn't it work better if the inner tube was coated flat
black instead of being reflective?
> The black is more absorptive and thus more heat should transfer to the
water inside, no?
> 
> Opinions anyone please?
> 
> Henry Polvi
> Toronto, ON

My experience has been that with black coating things get extremely hot. 
Perhaps in this situation only a certain amount of heat could be
controllable within economic reasons or ???
-Harry Sadler


From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:07 EST 1997
Article: 1484 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: SOLAR COLLECTING TUBES - BLACK OR SHINY?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:21:23 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5bcgtc$3pd@news.pathcom.com>
References: <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts9l14.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1484

hpolvi@interlog.com (Henry Polvi) wrote:

>Recently i observed a solar collecting device consisting of concentric tubes,
>the inner contains water to be heated, this has a relfective mirror like coating.
>The annular space is vacuum, the outer tube is clear pyrex glass.

>My question, wouldn't it work better if the inner tube was coated flat black instead of being reflective?
>The black is more absorptive and thus more heat should transfer to the water inside, no?

>Opinions anyone please?

>Henry Polvi
>Toronto, ON

If the solar tubes you are refering to are the units on the post
office just North of the Gardiner (west of the old race track), those
panels (tubes) are actually black inside. They operate by filling with
water, and when this happens, it changes the refractive index of the
two tubes (water between them) and they look black. When empty they
look silvery.

Andrew McKegney
Oakville Ontario.



From sportnut@swcp.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:08 EST 1997
Article: 1485 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.245.73.2!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!usenet
From: sportnut@swcp.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Electronic information about Solar Power
Date: 13 Jan 1997 04:58:05 GMT
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <5bcfct$t2@sloth.swcp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp42.swcp.com
X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1485

Can anybody give me a source for basic information
about how solar power works, what needs to be
bought and sources for purchasing equipment?
Best regards  Chris Berg   sportnut@swcp.com



From abe@pi.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:09 EST 1997
Article: 1486 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!sun4nl!easy4.worldaccess.nl!news
From: abe@pi.net (EASY MONY!!!)
Newsgroups: alt.soc.ethics,alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.civil-disob,alt.society.civil-liberties,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.foia,alt.society.futures,alt.society.generation-x,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.society.mental-health,alt.society.neutopia,alt.society.resistance,alt.society.revolution,alt.society.sovereign,alt.society.underwear,alt.soft-sys.corel.draw,alt.soft-sys.corel.misc,alt.soft-sys.tooltalk,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.sounds.a
Subject: $$$$ Make 50.000 fast,  IT WORKS you can't lose!!!!!!$$$$
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 97 21:46:53 GMT
Organization: BDM
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <5bgusd$afo_044@news.worldaccess.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grn2-12.worldaccess.nl
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.soc.ethics:367 alt.society.anarchy:52573 alt.society.civil-disob:672 alt.society.civil-liberties:14144 alt.society.civil-liberty:66768 alt.society.conservatism:83335 alt.society.foia:24 alt.society.futures:676 alt.society.generation-x:162260 alt.society.labor-unions:6307 alt.society.mental-health:5842 alt.society.neutopia:32856 alt.society.resistance:6111 alt.society.revolution:23135 alt.society.sovereign:19299 alt.society.underwear:11576 alt.soft-sys.corel.draw:10914 alt.soft-sys.corel.misc:969 alt.soft-sys.tooltalk:933 alt.solar.photovoltaic:2145 alt.solar.thermal:1486




From jglasgow@csrlink.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:10 EST 1997
Article: 1487 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!not-for-mail
From: jglasgow@csrlink.net (John Q. Glasgow Jr.)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: SOLAR COLLECTING TUBES - BLACK OR SHINY?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:30:08 GMT
Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5bcv82$8tg$1@news3.microserve.net>
References: <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pmsc1-0.csrlink.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1487

hpolvi@interlog.com (Henry Polvi) wrote:

>Recently i observed a solar collecting device consisting of concentric tubes,
>the inner contains water to be heated, this has a relfective mirror like coating.
>The annular space is vacuum, the outer tube is clear pyrex glass.

>My question, wouldn't it work better if the inner tube was coated flat black instead of being reflective?
>The black is more absorptive and thus more heat should transfer to the water inside, no?

>Opinions anyone please?

>Henry Polvi
>Toronto, ON

I agree. I don't have a degree in the field, but I did have a solar
heat system installed in a house. It used a flat black color for the
backing material. There were copper tubes that were installed on top
of the backing material. It had a clear tempered glass top panel. The
theory for the system was that the sun could shine through the clear
tempered glass top, strike the flat black backing material, and that
in turn heated the copper tubes and the 50/50 antifreeze/water
solution flowing through the tubes. Flat black has the greatest
absorption of all colors.



From mingusp@aol.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:11 EST 1997
Article: 1488 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!fsc.fujitsu.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mingusp@aol.com (MingusP)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: SOLAR COLLECTING TUBES - BLACK OR SHINY?
Date: 14 Jan 1997 18:15:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <19970114161200.LAA12168@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <5b91sg$569@news.interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1488

The reason that the inside is shiny and the outside is black is so that
energy from the sun will be absorbed (black reflecting less then white or
any other for that matter). One the energy (heat ) has been absorbed color
has little to do with the rate at which heat is passed through the wall.
On the inside of he cylinder you want to retain heat as much as possible
so the it is shiny. The mirror like coating bounces the heat energy back
and forth. Remember you are trying to heat the water inside not keep the
walls of the container warm.


From biotech@uni4nn.iaf.nl Tue Jan 21 11:37:12 EST 1997
Article: 1489 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!magma.noord.bart.nl!usenet
From: "Dr. Gert E. de Vries" <biotech@uni4nn.iaf.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Any good WWW sites on heat pipes?
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:32:43 +0100
Organization: bART Internet Services
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <32DCCE6B.2404@uni4nn.iaf.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asyn16.gn6.noord.bart.nl
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1489

Hi,

Does anyone have information on heatpipes?

Thanks, Gert



From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:13 EST 1997
Article: 1490 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!n1cal.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Limited Offer
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:13:19 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5bhel5$1jk@news.pathcom.com>
References: <32dae377.4996199@news.interhop.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts19l10.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1490

jlmgraphics@interhop.net wrote:

>Build it in your garage.
>Plans for alcohol still (ethanol).
>For fuel to run your chainsaw, lawn mower, your car, weed eater
>anything gas powered!
>If interested, send cheque or money order for $20.00 to receive plans
>at:
>208 Royal Rd.
>Keswick ON CAN.
>L4P-2M2
>Don't forget to send a self-addressed stamped 8"x8" envelope.

>Also have plans for Solar Powered Dog House, How to pamper your pooch!
>$10.00 Plans tell how to:
>Build the doghouse so that heat during the day and the stored energy
>will keep Rover warm all night!
>Tells you how to plan it for your geographical location.
>Very simple and cheap to build. ($30.00-$40.00)
>Learn basic Solar Engineering while you build the doghouse.

Also Available from the same company....

An Ethanol powered solarheated dog house cooker!!!!!!

Just imagine after a long scorching-hot day coming home to a nice
piping hot meal of marinated-barbequed dog!!

Plans available for only $20.00!!

Free form letters to rebutt angry calls fro neighbours and the SPCA!

Act now and we will include plans for a solar powered birdhouse
roaster - FREE !

208 Royal Rd.
Keswick ON CAN.
L4P-2M2

Don't forget to send a self-addressed stamped 8"x8" envelope.

Give us a break eh ;<)

AM



From censolar@censolar.org Tue Jan 21 11:37:14 EST 1997
Article: 1491 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:41:06 -0600
From: srgil@medialabs.es
Subject: Solar Energy distance-learning
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.photovoltaic,sci.physics,sci.environment,alt.solar.thermal,talk.environment,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.engr.mech,misc.jobs.offered,sci.energy.hydroge
Message-ID: <853363895.28001@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: censolar@censolar.org
Organization: Censolar
X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 15 21:36:11 1997 GMT
X-Originating-IP-Addr: 194.133.86.1 ()
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Authenticated-Sender: srgil@medialabs.es
Lines: 13
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:62023 alt.energy.renewable:21022 alt.solar.photovoltaic:2149 sci.physics:221382 sci.environment:117823 alt.solar.thermal:1491 talk.environment:86586 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11220 sci.engr.mech:33303 misc.jobs.offered:1903816

CENSOLAR is an international Solar Energy distance-learning. Center with
offices in Seville, Spain,  the European capital of solar research and
tecnology.
The educational services cover all the Spanish speaking countries,
including North, Central and South America. The working language is
Spanish.
CENSOLAR produces books, courses and software about photovoltaic and
solar thermal technology, having been working in this field since 1979.

http://www.censolar.es

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet


From jlmgraphics@interhop.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:15 EST 1997
Article: 1492 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.missouri.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.indy.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!usenet.logical.net!node2.frontiernet.net!newsfeed.vivanet.com!myth.vianet.on.ca!news2.insinc.net!news.interhop.net!usenet
From: jlmgraphics@interhop.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Limited Offer
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 01:38:12 GMT
Organization: Interhop Network Service Ltd.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32dae377.4996199@news.interhop.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pppa12.nmkt.interhop.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1492

Build it in your garage.
Plans for alcohol still (ethanol).
For fuel to run your chainsaw, lawn mower, your car, weed eater
anything gas powered!
If interested, send cheque or money order for $20.00 to receive plans
at:
208 Royal Rd.
Keswick ON CAN.
L4P-2M2
Don't forget to send a self-addressed stamped 8"x8" envelope.

Also have plans for Solar Powered Dog House, How to pamper your pooch!
$10.00 Plans tell how to:
Build the doghouse so that heat during the day and the stored energy
will keep Rover warm all night!
Tells you how to plan it for your geographical location.
Very simple and cheap to build. ($30.00-$40.00)
Learn basic Solar Engineering while you build the doghouse.







From jhedrick@ohio.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:16 EST 1997
Article: 1493 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!not-for-mail
From: jhedrick@ohio.net (James R. Hedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: newbie
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:58:14 GMT
Organization: Microserve Information Systems (800)-380-INET
Lines: 2
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5blc9q$am5$1@news3.microserve.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp31.respool1.medina.ohio.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1493

I am a newbie to the group.  Is there a FAQ?



From carsteng@dd.dk Tue Jan 21 11:37:17 EST 1997
Article: 1494 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news1.tele.dk!cph-1.news.DK.net!dkuug!dknet!usenet
From: "CARSTEN GLEM" <carsteng@dd.dk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solarenergy and swimmingpools
Date: 16 Jan 1997 10:30:46 GMT
Organization: Damgaard International A/S
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <01bc0398$d1838120$d9fd58c1@wscgl.dd.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: groucho.dd.dk
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1494

Hello

Anybody have any experience using solarenergy to warm up swimmingpools ?

Carsten




From robin@di-ren.demoon.co.uk Tue Jan 21 11:37:18 EST 1997
Article: 1495 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!di-ren.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail
From: robin@di-ren.demoon.co.uk (Di-Ren)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Information
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:11:09 GMT
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <853441522.12241.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: di-ren.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: di-ren.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1495

I am trying to locate information re solar heating on the net - does
anyone have useful pointers please

Thanks

Robin



From sv64013@lanet.lv Tue Jan 21 11:37:19 EST 1997
Article: 1496 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.uio.no!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.latnet.lv!news
From: Andris <sv64013@lanet.lv>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Electronic information about Solar Power
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:01:32 +0200
Organization: LU
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <32DE26AC.52B8@lanet.lv>
References: <5bcfct$t2@sloth.swcp.com>
Reply-To: sv64013@lanet.lv
NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.148.253.21
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1496

sportnut@swcp.com wrote:
> 
> Can anybody give me a source for basic information
> about how solar power works, what needs to be
> bought and sources for purchasing equipment?
> Best regards  Chris Berg   sportnut@swcp.com


 Hello. If you were able to understand Latvian, you would be able to get
very good source for your interest.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Jan 21 11:37:20 EST 1997
Article: 1497 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!gatech!news.jsums.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Solar heating the S.A.V.E. house
Date: 17 Jan 1997 02:52:52 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 302
Message-ID: <5bnb4k$7rs@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Summary: using a nearby greenhouse?
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.environment:117939 alt.architecture.alternative:9291 alt.energy.renewable:21067 alt.solar.thermal:1497 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11263

The 300-odd members of the environmental club Students Against Violating the
Earth (S.A.V.E) of Souderton Area High School (Southeast PA) are looking into
ways to solar heat the new environmental building they have constructed. It
was not designed to be 100% solar-heated, with the long axis north-south and
lots of windows with no thermal shutters inside them, and insulation inside
vs. outside the masonry walls. It might have been easier to solar heat if the
north masonry walls had exterior foam insulation like Dri-Vit with a stucco
finish, vs brick, with some plastic 55 gallon drums above the greenhouse.
The building will be used 24 hours a day, vs a daytime classroom. 

They have now installed electric resistance baseboard heating, a fine solar
backup system with low initial cost, if rarely used, as in the New England
houses of Norman Saunders, PE, or Dr. Bill Freeborn's Harleysville, PA house 
with an electric heating bill of about $58 per year.

Here's an approximate diagram from memory:

                                            south-southwest
                                                 ~ 12'
The building has about                       ------------
                                            |tile floored| ~6'
  50x16' of R3.3 windows,                   | greenhouse |
  90x16' of R20 walls, and             --------|......|--------
  22x42' of R20 ceiling,              |                        |
                                   ~8'| R3.3   all glass  R3.3 |~8'
so the thermal conductance            |                        |
  might be approximately              |                        | 
  240 for the windows,             -- |    cathedral ceiling   | --
   72 for the walls, and              |                        |
   46 for the ceiling, ie             |                        |
  358 Btu/hr-F total.                 |                        |
                                      |                        |
Air infiltration might add another    |                        |
  22x42x16/55x0.5ACH = 134 to this,   |                        |
  making the total heat loss          |                        |
  coefficient 492 Btu/hr-F.           |                        |
                                      | R20          balcony   |~34'
Over an average 30 F January day,     |...........   ..........|
  the building might need about       |          .....         |
  24hours(68-30)492 = 449K Btu        |  bedroom   ^   kitchen |
  to stay warm, about 132 kWh or      |  below     |   below   |
  3 gallons of oil. Or 560 ft^2       |            |           |
  of south glazing...                 |            |           |
                                      | fireman's pole         |
                                       ------------------------
  An average 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun            ~22'
  falling on 22'x16' = 352 ft^2 of 80% solar-transmitting south windows
  could keep this house reasonably warm during an average January day, if
  the heat could be stored. A PV-powered ceiling fan will help distribute
  the heat. Circulating warm air from the ceiling under an insulated floor
  slab might have helped here. 

The building might have 3 heating zones, with the big space cooler at night,
and a cool bedroom and a cold kitchen, so the refrigerator does not have to
work hard. (My kitchen is 35 F this morning.) It has a concrete floor slab
which may tend to keep temperatures from changing quickly inside. 

If the glass doors to the greenhouse were closed on a cloudy day, the thermal
conductance of the glass area would decrease from 240 to about 185 Btu/hr-F,
reducing the total thermal conductance from 492 to 437 Btu/hr-F. Covering 50%
of the remaining windows with R10 foamboard shutters in December and January
would reduce the glass loss to about 93+400ft^2/13.3=123 Btu/hr-F, reducing
that total thermal conductance to 374, while leaving 400 ft^2 of windows for
an average indoor solar intensity of about 10,000x80%x350ft^2/880ft^2 = 3100
footcandles at noon, 62 times more than a well-lit 50 fc classroom. Some
reflective light shelves under high windows might bounce the sun off the white
ceiling and diffuse it around the main area. Compact fluorescent lights with
individual switches or occupancy sensors could fill in lower-intensity areas.
This might be a nice project for a student with a light meter.

The south window shutters might be dark green on the outside, with an air gap
between window and shutter and an opening near the top to make those windows
seasonal air heaters, with something like half the former solar gain, since
they would have warmer air next to the window, but little loss at night or
on a cloudy day. (More efficient window shutter collectors might have a layer
of dark mesh dividing the air gap, and passively persuade room air to flow
down the cold side between the mesh and the window, and back up into the room
via the warmer side of the gap to the north of the mesh.)

These seasonal interior shutters with simple solar collection would reduce
the average net heat requirement to about 24x(68-30)374 - 0.5(350)0.8x1000
= 341K - 140K = 201K Btu per day. Limiting air infiltration to 0.5 ACH may
not be easy, even though about 15% of the walls are below ground. A blower
door test on a cold night with an army of students with scaffolds and smoke
sticks and caulking guns might accomplish this :-) Some of the daily heat
might come from students, at about 300 Btu/hour/student, eg 30x3x300 = 27K
Btu/day from a 3 hour class with 30 students, and some of that 201K Btu might
come from electrical energy consumption, eg 500kWhx3410/30=57K Btu/day, but
the building may be empty at times, and the students intend to be frugal with
electrical power, so it looks like this building, as modified, needs at least
201K/1000Btu/ft^2/day = 201 ft^2 of additional south glazing to stay warm on
an average January day, if it only uses the sun for heat, vs. wood, a heat
pump, etc. What works for January should work for the rest of the year. 

Over 5 cloudy days, the modified building would need about 5x341K = 1.7
million Btu to stay warm, which might come from 1.7M/(120-80) = 43,000
pounds or about 700 cubic feet of warm water cooling from 120 F to 80 F
in some insulated plywood or ferrocement tanks lined with 10' wide EPDM
rubber roofing material, supporting 2 benches inside a nearby 30' wide by
32' long greenhouse to the west of the SAVE house with an equivalent winter
south glazing area of about 400 ft^2, using $2,000 worth of materials.
A 4' wide x 3' tall x 32' long tank would hold 384 cubic feet of water,
a total of 768 ft^3 for 2 of them. 

This leaves 22' x 32' of floorspace in the middle of a half-cylindrical
greenhouse which might be used as a classroom, which could be fairly cold
at night, except for special occasions. The north tank might have a
transparent cover, and the north wall/roof of the greenhouse might be
reflective, to gather some concentrated sun, like this:  

       .                                        ---
               .
                    .
                        .
 <- S                      .                   12-15'
                              .   y
         (32' long)             . |     z
       /                    ......|   /  
     /                      .tank . /
x <............................f............. ---

About 640 ft^2 of 1" foil-faced foamboard might be slotted and bent and
screwed to the bottom of curved galvanized pipes on 4' centers to make a
reticulated 4.5:1 concentrating parabolic shape, with the reflective surface
inside the greenhouse, with a focus f at about x=2.68' (y^2 = 4fx). The same
sheathing might be used for the endwalls, reflective side in, or they might
be 1 or 2 layers of polycarbonate or polyethylene film.

The north tank might have a shallow drain-down pool made from a 4' wide piece
of EPDM rubber draped over vertical 2 x 4 edges with 5 3/16" x 46" x 76"
single-pane tempered sliding glass door replacement panels laid on top. A
low-power pump (e.g. Grainger's 100 watt 2P079 pump) might circulate about
12 gpm at about 1' head between the tank and the shallow pool when the sun
is shining. A lower power and possibly simpler alternative might have an
insulating cover under the glass that sinks a bit during the day. 

Here's an approximate energy balance for the north tank:

Energy in = 12 x 32' x 1100 Btu/ft^2/day x .9 trans. x .8 reflectance
          = 300 K Btu/day

Energy out = (T-32)(4'x32')/R1*6 hours/day, in January.

Energy in = Energy out ==> 768 T - 25K = 300K, ==> T = 428 degrees F :-)

The water might heat up 10 degrees F per day if it starts cold. With R20
insulation and 472 ft^2 of surface, ie a thermal resistance of R = 0.042
F-hr/Btu and C = 384x62 = 23808 Btu/F, the north tank would have a natural
time constant RC = 1000 hours or 42 days. If it were 130 F initially, with
no additional heat loss, it would cool to about 30+(130-30)exp(-24/1000)
= 127.6 F on a cloudy day. The tanks might supply space heating to a fan-coil
unit in the SAVE house using Magicaire's $150(?) all-copper 2'x2' SHW 2347
duct heat exchanger, which transfers 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and
68 F air at 1400 cfm, ie about 800 Btu/hr-F, with a 0.1" H20 fan pressure
drop. The low pressure water might move between greenhouse and house via
two insulated hot water hoses laid in a short trench.

The tanks might serve as foundation, perhaps making this structure temporary
for building permit purposes, one that might sit on flat ground or a strong
flat roof of a city building, with no roof penetrations. The lower perimeter
edges should lie in a plane, especially if the greenhouse is covered with
clear flat polycarbonate glazing. The $35 galvanized pipe half-bows might be
bolted to vertical 2x4s that form one wall of the tank, instead of being
slipped into $10 ground stake pipes, which is the way these greenhouses are
usually constructed. 

An alternative to this concentrating system might have a large dark vertical 
mesh absorber running down the length of a half-cylindrical greenhouse, say
an $80 32' long x 12' tall piece of 60% solar-absorbing dark green shadecloth
with a $60 piece of 80% black shadecloth north of it and $20 worth of UV 
polyethylene film on both sides 6" away from the absorber. The shadecloth
would absorb 92% of the sun, creating a light side and an 800 fc "dark side"
for the greenhouse. A fan-coil or two might push air east or west through a
polyethylene duct with holes near the top of this sandwich, making the air
flow horizontally from south to north through the mesh absorber and back, in
a closed loop. Some posts might keep the sandwich from ballooning and help 
support a snow load while the greenhouse melts snow using stored solar heat. 

A shallow reflecting pool to the south of the greenhouse might serve as a
skating rink and help keep weeds and lawnmowers away from the glazing and
increase the solar intensity by about 30% when frozen, in this non-parabolic
geometry. (Engineer Rudy Behrens of Aurora Farms at 1547 North Trooper Road,
Norristown, PA 19403 is building more magical Cassagrainian greenhouses for
year-round vegetable crops with arrays of fixed 8'x8' Mylar film/plywood
reflectors to concentrate winter sun into $5K canvas/steel 30' geodesic
Pacific Domes with their large vinyl bay windows facing north :-)

The air-heater sandwich might be built into the south wall/roof using an
extra layer of polyethylene film, if this were not a working greenhouse full
of plants needing full sun. Hanging the sandwich in the middle keeps it and
the greenhouse warmer than if it were built into the south wall and losing
heat directly from the higher sandwich temperature to the outside world.

As another alternative, the sandwich might have fin-tube pipe near the top
instead of fan-coil units, which would cost more but use less electrical
power. That would also be quieter, and might help support the roof. 

So, what happens here? The sun shines into the greenhouse and gets absorbed
by 2 layers of poly film, with a solar transmittance of 0.92 each and a
combined R-value of 1.2. The sun keeps on shining into the sandwich, and
its single layer of poly film (or perhaps polycarbonate) transmits 92% of
the sun and absorbs or scatters 8%, which heats the greenhouse to an air 
temperature Tg, and the greenhouse loses heat to the outdoors through the
south glazing, as well as the R5 north and endwalls. Meanwhile, the air
inside the sandwich has a warmer temperature Ts, and the sandwich loses
heat to the greenhouse through both US R0.8 poly sides, ie the waste heat
>from  the water heating process is heating the greenhouse air in a kind of
thermal cogeneration.

Two 800 Btu/hr-F heat fan-coil units (or 2 automobile radiators with efficient
12 volt fans) might be modeled with an analogous electrical DC steady-state
circuit that looks something like this:

          glazing resistance   end wall resistance
        --------www--<-----------------www---------------->---- 30 F
       | Rg = R1.2/750 ft^2  | Re = R5/700ft^2
       |                     | north wall resistance
       |  small solar        |---------www---------------->---- 30 F
       |  current source     | Rn = R5/750ft^2
       |    ------           |                   Ts  fan-coil 
       |   |      |          |   sandwich res.  |    resistance
30 F ------| ---> |-------------------www---<------->-www------ Tw 
           |      |         |  Rs = R0.8/768ft^2  |  1/1600 |
            ------           Tg                   |         |--> 201K
    14'x32'x1000x1.3x0.08/6hr                     |         |    Btu/day
      = 7.8K Btu/hr (2.6 kW)                      |         |
                                                  |      ------- tanks
          large solar                             |              for the
          current source                          |      ------- memories
            ------                                |         | 
           |      |                               |         |
30 F ------| ---> |--------------------------------        ---
           |      |                                         - 
            ------                                          
    14'x32'x1000x1.3x0.92^3/6hr                             
      = 75.6K Btu/hr (22.1 kW)                               
                                                         
which simplifies to 
                       Ts                               Tw
              Rt      |       fan-coil resistance      |  
Tt ----------www----------------------www----------------------> 33.5K
                          Rf = 1/1600 = 0.000625 F-hr/Btu    |   Btu/hr
                                                           -----
    Tt = 161 F is the (Thevenin) equivalent temperature,   -----
         which is Ts above with the tanks disconnected.      |
    Rt = 0.00053 F-hr/Btu is the resistance from Ts to      ---
         ground with tanks disconnected, current sources     - 
         opened up and voltage sources shorted, ie
	 Rg, Re, Rn and Rs in parallel.

Thus we can easily see (I hate these words :-), Tw = 161-33.5K(Rt+Rf) = 122 F.
It looks like we may be able to make the water at least 120 F this way. If it
turns out we can't, and the sandwich has studs on 4' centers, we can insulate
some of the dark side with foamboard or replace the 5 cent/ft^2 poly film on
the front with $1.25/ft^2 polycarbonate plastic, which comes in rolls 49" wide
x 50' long from Replex at (800) 726-5151 or commercial greenhouse suppliers
like Rimol Greenhouse Systems at (603) 425-6563, who sell this plastic film
for $250 per roll + $10 for UPS shipping.

Ts = Tw + 33.5KRf = 143 F, using this model, and Tg comes from another 
Thevenin equivalent circuit:

                       Tg                               Ts
              Rt      |       sandwich resistance      |  
Tt ----------www----------------------www----------------------> 143 F
                        Rs = R0.8/768ft^2 = 0.0010417
                                                           
    Tt = 38.5 F is Tg with the tanks disconnected, and 
    Rt = 0.001093 F-hr/Btu is the resistance from Tg to ground
         with tanks disconnected and current sources opened up.

So the greenhouse temperature Tg = 38.5+(143-40)Rs/(Rt+Rs) = 96.4 F, so we
may want to vent the greenhouse during the winter to keep it cooler or waste
less solar heat by adding some insulation to the north side of the sandwich,
and allowing some warm air to flow out of the sandwich as needed to keep the
greenhouse at 68 F on a sunny day.

Domestic hot water for SAVE showers, hot tubs, etc, could be supplied via a
heat exchanger attached to the existing water heater in the house, in the
same circulation loop as the fan coil unit. 

The fan-coil unit or baseboard radiators inside the SAVE house need to supply
about 201K/24 = 8400 Btu/hour on an average day, with a water temperature
difference of about 10 F, and a water flow rate of about 840 pounds per hour
or 2 gallons per minute. The building needs about (68-10)374 = 22K Btu/hr on
a very cold night, at the ASHRAE-recommended Philadelphia 99%-tile outdoor
dry bulb winter heating design temperature of 10 F. This might come from an
additional fan-coil unit and pump, with a water temperature difference of
14 F and a total water flow of about 4 gpm.   

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html
Web site: http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick 



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Jan 21 11:37:21 EST 1997
Article: 1498 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Information
Date: 17 Jan 1997 01:45:58 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5bn776$7bd@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <853441522.12241.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1498

Di-Ren <robin@di-ren.demoon.co.uk> wrote:

>I am trying to locate information re solar heating on the net - does
>anyone have useful pointers please

Hi Robin,

Email to you bounced...

Host unknown (Name server: di-ren.demoon.co.uk: host not found)

I wonder what you would like to know about solar heating.

Nick

Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting
Pine Associates, Ltd.                                (610) 489-0545 
821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057
Collegeville, PA 19426                     Email: nick@ece.vill.edu

Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and
cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US
Patent Agent. Solar closet paper: http://leia.ursinus.edu/~physics/solar.html
Web site: http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick 



From merlon@gn.apc.org Tue Jan 21 11:37:22 EST 1997
Article: 1499 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!cold.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!gn.apc.org!gn5!gn!merlon
From: B P Moore <merlon@gn.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: solar collecting roofs
Message-ID: <APC&2'0'a13b0641'c74@gn.apc.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:49:52 +0000
X-Gateway: notes@gn.apc.org
Lines: 12
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1499

From: merlon (Barrie  Moore)

ARMOUR-PLATING    - too ugly

SILVER-PLATING    - too expensive

SOLAR-PLATING     - www.archinet.co.uk

click on the solar-plating logo on the home page
go to "more" for a picture




From tim.heuser@cdis.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:23 EST 1997
Article: 1501 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.45.255.1!coopnews.coop.net!news.frontier.net!cdis!tim.heuser
From: tim.heuser@cdis.com (TIM HEUSER)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Electronic informatiÿÿÿÿÿ
Message-ID: <8D041EC.00AC000010.uuout@cdis.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 08:12:00 -0700
Distribution: world
Organization: Coyote's Den Information System, Durango, Co. (970)247-0628
Reply-To: tim.heuser@cdis.com (TIM HEUSER)
References: <32DE26AC.52B8@lanet.lv>
X-Newsreader: PCBoard Version 15.3
X-Mailer: PCBoard/UUOUT Version 1.30
Lines: 18
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1501

AA> sportnut@swcp.com wrote: > > Can anybody give me a source for
AA> basic information > about how solar power works, what needs to
AA> be > bought and sources for purchasing equipment? > Best regards
AA>  Chris Berg   sportnut@swcp.com

Check out "Real goods" at http://www.realgoods.com\
or e-mail at realgood@realgoods.com

This is a great source for not only hardware but reading also.

Tim

 * RM 1.3 02908 * Youth & Strength can be overcome by AGE & SNEAKY!(c)


---
 Presentation of the preceding message was made possible by Coyote's Den BBS
         Durango, Colorado * 970.247.0628 Data & Fax * SysOp@cdis.com


From wstewart@patriot.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:23 EST 1997
Article: 1502 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: sci.environment,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solar heating the S.A.V.E. house
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:16:00 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <32E0244F.6982@patriot.net>
References: <5bnb4k$7rs@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-26.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu sci.environment:118004 alt.architecture.alternative:9299 alt.energy.renewable:21105 alt.solar.thermal:1502 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11280

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> The 300-odd members of the environmental club Students Against Violating the
> Earth (S.A.V.E) of Souderton Area High School (Southeast PA) are looking into
> ways to solar heat the new environmental building they have constructed. It
> was not designed to be 100% solar-heated, with the long axis north-south and
> lots of windows with no thermal shutters inside them, and insulation inside
> vs. outside the masonry walls. It might have been easier to solar heat if the
> north masonry walls had exterior foam insulation like Dri-Vit with a stucco
> finish, vs brick, with some plastic 55 gallon drums above the greenhouse.
> The building will be used 24 hours a day, vs a daytime classroom.
> 
> They have now installed electric resistance baseboard heating, a fine solar
> backup system with low initial cost, if rarely used, as in the New England
> houses of Norman Saunders, PE, or Dr. Bill Freeborn's Harleysville, PA house
> with an electric heating bill of about $58 per year.

Fine if the house is designed to be 90+% solar heated.

> Here's an approximate diagram from memory:
> 
>                                             south-southwest
>                                                  ~ 12'
> The building has about                       ------------
>                                             |tile floored| ~6'
>   50x16' of R3.3 windows,  

Nice windows.  Is that the center-of-glass value or unit value?

                                              | greenhouse |
>   90x16' of R20 walls, and             --------|......|--------
>   22x42' of R20 ceiling,              |                        |

Your window, wall, and ceiling measurements don't add up.

>                                    ~8'| R3.3   all glass  R3.3 |~8'
> so the thermal conductance            |                        |
>   might be approximately              |                        |
>   240 for the windows,             -- |    cathedral ceiling   | --
>    72 for the walls, and              |                        |
>    46 for the ceiling, ie             |                        |
>   358 Btu/hr-F total.                 |                        |
>                                       |                        |
> Air infiltration might add another    |                        |
>   22x42x16/55x0.5ACH = 134 to this,   |                        |
>   making the total heat loss          |                        |
>   coefficient 492 Btu/hr-F.           |                        |

How did you arrive at this figure?  What type of windows are installed
(casement, single hung, picture) and what is the infiltration rate per
window?  ANSI NWWDA Standards for wood window units, Grade 40 allows .25
cubic feet per minute per lineal sash foot.
 
>                                       | R20          balcony   |~34'
> Over an average 30 F January day,     |...........   ..........|
>   the building might need about       |          .....         |
>   24hours(68-30)492 = 449K Btu        |  bedroom   ^   kitchen |
>   to stay warm, about 132 kWh or      |  below     |   below   |
>   3 gallons of oil. Or 560 ft^2       |            |           |
>   of south glazing...                 |            |           |
>                                       | fireman's pole         |
>                                        ------------------------
>   An average 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun            ~22'
>   falling on 22'x16' = 352 ft^2 of 80% solar-transmitting south windows
>   could keep this house reasonably warm during an average January day, if
>   the heat could be stored. A PV-powered ceiling fan will help distribute
>   the heat. Circulating warm air from the ceiling under an insulated floor
>   slab might have helped here.

Or a thermal storage wall with insulated shades for nighttime
insulation.
 
> The building might have 3 heating zones, with the big space cooler at night,
> and a cool bedroom and a cold kitchen, so the refrigerator does not have to
> work hard. (My kitchen is 35 F this morning.) It has a concrete floor slab
> which may tend to keep temperatures from changing quickly inside.
 
>[...]

> Over 5 cloudy days, the modified building would need about 5x341K = 1.7
> million Btu to stay warm, which might come from 1.7M/(120-80) = 43,000
> pounds or about 700 cubic feet of warm water cooling from 120 F to 80 F
> in some insulated plywood or ferrocement tanks lined with 10' wide EPDM
> rubber roofing material, supporting 2 benches inside a nearby 30' wide by
> 32' long greenhouse to the west of the SAVE house with an equivalent winter
> south glazing area of about 400 ft^2, using $2,000 worth of materials.
> A 4' wide x 3' tall x 32' long tank would hold 384 cubic feet of water,
> a total of 768 ft^3 for 2 of them.

Too bad this couldn't be insulated and buried under the slab.


> The north tank might have a shallow drain-down pool made from a 4' wide piece
> of EPDM rubber draped over vertical 2 x 4 edges with 5 3/16" x 46" x 76"
> single-pane tempered sliding glass door replacement panels laid on top. A
> low-power pump (e.g. Grainger's 100 watt 2P079 pump) might circulate about
> 12 gpm at about 1' head between the tank and the shallow pool when the sun
> is shining. A lower power and possibly simpler alternative might have an
> insulating cover under the glass that sinks a bit during the day.
> 
> Here's an approximate energy balance for the north tank:
> 
> Energy in = 12 x 32' x 1100 Btu/ft^2/day x .9 trans. x .8 reflectance
>           = 300 K Btu/day
> 
> Energy out = (T-32)(4'x32')/R1*6 hours/day, in January.

How did you arrive at this?
 
> Energy in = Energy out ==> 768 T - 25K = 300K, ==> T = 428 degrees F :-)

This is a definite clue...

Your article is too long to review. 

Cheers, 
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

"Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post (or one posting trolls) to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts or logic."    - bashford@psnw.com


From sunone@pathcom.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:24 EST 1997
Article: 1503 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!news.jhu.edu!jobone!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n3tor.istar!news.pathcom.com!usenet
From: sunone@pathcom.com (Andrew McKegney)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solarenergy and swimmingpools
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:51:12 GMT
Organization: Pathway Communications
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <5bpl1n$bit@news.pathcom.com>
References: <01bc0398$d1838120$d9fd58c1@wscgl.dd.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts18l4.pathcom.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1503

"CARSTEN GLEM" <carsteng@dd.dk> wrote:

>Hello

>Anybody have any experience using solarenergy to warm up swimmingpools ?

>Carsten

Yup, lots. What do you want to know, other than that solar pool
heating systems work well providing they're designed properly?

Andy McKegney C.E.T.




From wa@hogia.se Tue Jan 21 11:37:25 EST 1997
Article: 1504 of alt.solar.thermal
From: "Wilhelm Ahlgren" <wa@hogia.se>
Subject: Re: Information
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
References: <853441522.12241.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Hogia Communications AB
Message-ID: <01bc053e$6a136b20$10b2fbc2@wa.hogia.se>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
NNTP-Posting-Host: wa.com.hogia.se
Date: 18 Jan 97 12:47:30 GMT
Lines: 19
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.89.123.24!nntp.inet.fi!news.sto.telegate.se!wa.com.hogia.se
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1504



Di-Ren <robin@di-ren.demoon.co.uk> wrote in article
<853441522.12241.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>...
: I am trying to locate information re solar heating on the net
- does
: anyone have useful pointers please
: 
: Thanks
: 
: Robin
: 
: 

Try this

<http://www.ises.org/pages/solarinfo.html>




From redrok@pclink.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:26 EST 1997
Article: 1505 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: solar collecting roofs
Message-ID: <32E0E42C.53F2@pclink.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:54:36 -0800
References: <APC&2'0'a13b0641'c74@gn.apc.org>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: B P Moore <merlon@gn.apc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 39
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1505

B P Moore wrote:
> 
> From: merlon (Barrie  Moore)
> 
> ARMOUR-PLATING    - too ugly
> 
> SILVER-PLATING    - too expensive
> 
> SOLAR-PLATING     - www.archinet.co.uk
> 
> click on the solar-plating logo on the home page
> go to "more" for a picture

Ok. I found the site.
http://www.archinet.co.uk/

But I could not find the words "solar-plating" or "more".

Are you sure you tried this site before posting your
message?

-- 
CUL8ER

Stupid is Forever.
Ignorance can be Fixed.

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
Solar Heliostats
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
redrok@pclink.com
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/



From stevie2@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 21 11:37:27 EST 1997
Article: 1506 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!mr.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Steve Segrest <stevie2@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Renewable Energy News
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:47:48 -0500
Organization: Common Purpose
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <32E0F0A4.5A6F@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: atl-ga12-02.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 18  7:56:52 AM PST 1997
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1506

Summary of This Week's Top News Stories On Renewable Energy:

Monday:  One-Third Of Mass. Customers Choose Green Over Price
Tuesday: Congress Committee Assignments (Renewable Energy)
Wednesday:  Wisconsin RFP For Renewable Energy
Thursday:  Proposed Revisions To Clean Air Act
Friday:  CA Energy Commission Finds Tax Inequity For Renewables

To read these stories go to http://www.pic.net/~stevie2 and then click
on DAILY NEWS

Common Purpose For Clean Energy
A Non-Profit Organization


From bently@flash.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:28 EST 1997
Article: 1507 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.66.12.35!news-in.iadfw.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail
From: Wally Bently <bently@flash.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: What are the costs in constructing solar tower & line focused solar collectors?
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:19:11 -0600
Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <5bs0bj$fsn$1@excalibur.flash.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tc5-220.flash.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1507

1997 January 18th. 

I recently looked at the home page by Sandia corporation in regards to
the solar tower they constructed in the late 1970's.  I am trying to 
establish current 1990 realistic numbers and where further cost
reductions are needed.  

    The following were some costs for the 222 helio-stat mirror
Solar Tower system which produce about 5 megawatts (thermal heat)
under maximum sunlight.  This thermal heat generates about 1.5 million
electrical watts.  

Technology                                       Capital
Era                                               Cost? 
-------   ----------------------   -----------  -------------- 
1970's    Helio stat cost (each)   $35,000      $4.50/electrical-watt
	  Computer cost            $1 million  
          Total system cost        $22 million $13.20/electrical-watt 

1980's    Helio stat cost (each)   $17,000      $2.16/electrical-watt 
          Total system cost        $ ?          $6.10/electrical-watt?
          Computer cost            $100,000         ? 

1990's    Helio stat cost (each)     ?              ?
          Computer cost              ?              ?  
          Total system cost        $20,000?         ?

Of course from this home page, recurring and non recurring
(development, research, and manufacturing one time costs) cannot be
determined.  At least 33% of the costs ($1.35/thermal-watt) are
thought to be composed of overhead management, research, public
relations, and other such items.   

What portion of the (recurring costs only) for each heliostat is
composed of pointing electronics and computer control?   I personally
can't see more than $1,000/heliostat for electronics and probably is
closer to $500/heliostat.   

What was the hardware technology used to control the helio stats? 
More specifically how did the central computer transmit
(via radio or cable?) the pointing information and in what form 
(analog or digital?) to each heliostat.  What type of servo system
for moving the mirrors (in some detail) were used?   

I would like to know the answers to the same questions for the 
California located Solar Electric Gas Generation System SEGGS
which are line focused (one axis rotation) solar collectors. 

I personally believe, that capital costs can be brought down within
this decade to $5 electrical-watt (about the same as current
photovoltaic panels prices and nuclear reactors.   

Is there some way of getting a detailed break-down of current
costs for building a 1990's technology solar tower system. 

Any additional information would be be appreciated.  

Thank you,

Wally Bently
E-mail bently@flash.net


From MRPAINTBALL@prodigy.net Tue Jan 21 11:37:29 EST 1997
Article: 1509 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-server.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.207.105.50!prodigy.com!usenet
From: MRPAINTBALL <MRPAINTBALL@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.soulmates,alt.sounds.answering.machines,alt.sources,alt.sources.amiga,alt.sources.d,alt.sources.mac,alt.sources.patches,alt.sources.wanted,alt.spam,alt.spank.tonya.harding,alt.speech.debate,alt.spleen,alt.sport.basketball.nba.orl-magic,alt.sport.bowling,alt.sport.bungee,alt.sport.darts,alt.sport.falconry,alt.sport.foosball,alt.sport.horse-racing,alt.sport.jet-ski,alt.sport.lacrosse,alt.sport.lasertag,alt.sport.officiating,alt.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: $$$$ Make 50.000 fast,  IT WORKS you can't lose!!!!!!$$$$
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:33:38 -0500
Organization: Prodigy Internet
Lines: 666
Message-ID: <32DF4772.5710@prodigy.net>
References: <5bm52q$apk_043@grn1-2.worldaccess.nl>
Reply-To: MRPAINTBALL@prodigy.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------79BA58ED4377"
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
CC: Mrpaintball@prodigy.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1509 alt.sounds.answering.machines:51 alt.sources:11805 alt.sources.amiga:3569 alt.sources.d:5362 alt.sources.mac:6664 alt.sources.patches:46 alt.sources.wanted:9341 alt.spam:10660 alt.spank.tonya.harding:1312 alt.speech.debate:2397 alt.spleen:2301 alt.sport.basketball.nba.orl-magic:919 alt.sport.bowling:38551 alt.sport.bungee:2366 alt.sport.darts:8529 alt.sport.falconry:3841 alt.sport.foosball:3216 alt.sport.horse-racing:10674 alt.sport.jet-ski:17862 alt.sport.lacrosse:712 alt.sport.lasertag:17728 alt.sport.officiating:7182 alt.sport.paintball:18261

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------79BA58ED4377
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Easy Mony wrote:
> 
> $$$$ Make 50.000 fast,  IT WORKS you can't lose!!!!!!$$$$
> 
> Take five minutes to read this and it WILL change your life.
> 
                                                                                                
JUST SAY NO TO SPAM!!!!!

--------------79BA58ED4377
Content-Type: image/gif; name="spam.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="spam.jpg"
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--------------79BA58ED4377--



From grantr@qni.com Tue Feb 11 16:21:35 EST 1997
Article: 1548 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.suba.com!not-for-mail
From: grantr@qni.com (Grant S. Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water to heat/cool a house
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 09:32:35 GMT
Organization: Suba Communications, http://www.suba.com
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <32fa6145.16907821@news.qni.com>
References: <5clvie$521@brtph500.bnr.ca> <32EFB430.9F2@flash.net> <5cqmkt$o2k@brtph500.bnr.ca> <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <5d6dmn$npn@wilma.widomaker.com> <5d7qqc$11i$2@newsmaster.pathcom.com> <32F825EB.6768@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: grantr@qni.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.149.1.29
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/32.339
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:22200 alt.solar.thermal:1548 alt.architecture.alternative:9595 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11678

J Chace <amysan1@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Aitight houses use heat exchngers to take care of moisture and smell!! It 
>works.

Do you have any recommendations on these heat exchangers?


From RDD@r-ds.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 11 16:21:36 EST 1997
Article: 1549 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!r-ds.demon.co.uk!r-ds.demon.co.uk!RDD
From: "R. Daniel Davies" <RDD@r-ds.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Copper vs. Plastic for Pool
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:24:10 +0000
Organization: R&DSERV
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <qFHbnKAKRF$yEw9H@r-ds.demon.co.uk>
References: <AF1C20D89668B58D6@ws1.husler.xo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: r-ds.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: r-ds.demon.co.uk
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.12 <57hxOZV6qyVdKnGY9wyhlCL91q>
Lines: 24
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1549

In article <AF1C20D89668B58D6@ws1.husler.xo.com>, Bill Husler
<Bill@Husler.xo.com> writes
>I have to replace my current 5 panel fafco system (15 years old) and have
>had both copper and plastic recommended to me. I am intriqued by Copper
>since it would extend the swimming season, but a concerned about the
>plastic proponents contention that Chlorine eats copper. Does anyone have
>any experience with Copper panels? How much Chorine is OK? If I shock the
>pool, will it devour my panels?
>Bill
>
>Please remember to always flame via private eMail - the rest of the group is 
>just not interested.


Chlorine is an oxidiser and thefore will attack both copper and
plastics!  In the presence of some metals in the water, such as copper,
the effects of the oxidation degradation process are accelerated.
Chlorides and sulphates in the pool water will also attack the copper.
Hence plastics will probably be a safer bet from a corrosion point of
view depending upon which type of plastics is used.  I know it may be
obvious, but a large amount of filters and pool piping etc is already
plastics.
Hope this helps some.
Daniel Davies


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Tue Feb 11 16:21:37 EST 1997
Article: 1550 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: water vapor, rocks, air leakiness and relative humidity
Date: 8 Feb 1997 14:34:33 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <5dikg9$ep4@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <5dbhpr$se8@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5dcloq$n49@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <5dfkd1$m0$1@newsmaster.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:9602 alt.energy.renewable:22208 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11682 alt.solar.thermal:1550

Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>Um, could you explain how this works , please?
>
>(clip)
>>Liquid polyethylene glycol can absorb 11 times its weight in water. 

Mostly I've just read about this, and I think that may be 1X for glycol,
vs 11X for lithium chloride. Here are some excerpts from pages 19.1-19.4
of the 1993 ASHRAE HOF:

  Virtually all materials are dessicants; that is, they attract and hold
  water vapor. Wood, natural fibers, clays and many synthetic materials
  attract and release moisture like commercial dessicants do, but they 
  lack the holding capacity of what are known as dessicant materials. For
  example, woolen carpet fibers attract up to 23% of their dry weight in
  water vapor, and nylon can take up almost 6% of its weight in water. In
  contrast, a commerical dessicant takes up between 10 and 1100% of its
  dry weight in water vapor, depending on its type and the moisture
  available in the envrironment. Furthermore, commmercial dessicants
  continue to attract moisture even when the surrounding air is quite dry,
  a characteristic that other materials do not share.

  All dessicants behave in a similar way--they attract moisture until they
  reach equiliburium with the surroundiung air. Moisture is usually removed
  from the dessicant by heating it to temperatures between 120 and 500 F
  and exposing it to a scavenger airstream [eg a sunspace vented to outdoors
  on a sunny summer day.] After the dessicant dries, it must be cooled so
  that it can attract moisture once again. Sorption always generates sensible
  heat equal to the latent heat of the water vapor taken up by the dessicant,
  plus an additional heat of sorption that varies between 5 and 25% of the
  latent heat of the water vapor. [Richard Komp says materials that undergo
  chemical change when absorbing water do not necessarily heat up while doing
  so, which seems useful in summertime.] This heat is transferred to the
  dessicant and to the surrounding air.

The HOF says dessicants are used in many air-conditioning applications,
particularly when the cost of [solar :-)] energy to regenerate the dessicant
is low when compared with the cost of energy to dehumidify the air by chilling
it below its dew point. It also says they show promise in improving indoor air
quality in typical building HVAC systems by adsorbing hydrocarbon vapors at
the same time they collect moisture from air. 

  The vapor pressure of a liquid absorption solution is directly proportional
  to its temperature and inversely proportional to its concentration. Figure
  4 [showing surface vapor pressure of different concentrations of glycol
  increasing with temperature, eg 98% glycol increasing from about 0.1" Hg at
  60 F to to 1" Hg at 140 F with a dew point of 79 F (vs water at 6" Hg at
  140 F with a dew point of 140 F)] illustrates the [decreasing] effect of
  increasing dessicant concentration on the water vapor pressure at its
  surface. The figure shows the vapor pressure of various solutions of water
  and triethylene glycol, a common commercial dessicant. As the glycol content
  of the mixture increases, its vapor pressure decreases. This pressure
  difference allows the glycol solution to absorb moisture from the air
  whenever the vapor pressure of the air is greater than that of the solution.

  ...the behavior of a liquid dessicant can be controlled by adjusting its
  concentration, its temperature, or both. Dessicant temperature is controlled
  by simple heaters and coolers. Concentration is controlled by heating the
  dessicant to drive moisture out into a waste air stream... 

  ...liquid dessicants have an especially high water-holding capacity. Each
  molecule of lithium chloride, for example, can hold two water molecules,
  even in the dry state. Above two water molecules per molecule of LiCl, the
  dessicant becomes a liquid and continues to absorb water. If the solution 
  is in equilibrium with air at a 90% rh air moisture condition, approximately
  26 water molecules are attached to each molecule of LiCl. This represents
  a water absorption of more than 1000% on a dry mass basis. 

  As a practical matter, however, the absorption process is limited by the
  surface area of a dessicant exposed to the air being dehumidified and the 
  contact time allowed for the reaction. More surface area and more contact
  time allows the dessicant to approach its theoretical capacity. Commercial
  dessicant systems reflect these realities either by spraying the dessicant
  onto an extended surface much like in a cooling tower, or holding a solution
  in a rotating extended surface with a large solution capacity... 

Which suggests a glycol pool in a sunspace with a glycol fountain in a house, 
or a granular dessicant sunspace floor made from lava or expanded shale or
some sort of material containing lithium or calcium chloride or a silica gel
or some sort of zeolite...  

Figure 7 on page 19.5, "sorption isotherms of various dessicants at 72 F"
is a graph of mass of water vapor absorbed as a function of % rh at 72 F,
ranging from about 100% by weight for triethylene glycol (Dow Chemical) to
1000% for LiCl (Cargocaire Engineering Division of Munters USA, with a graph
by itself) at 90% rh. This dessicant chapter references "Lithium Chloride
Technical Data" bulletin 151, 1988, from Foote Mineral in Exton, PA.

It also says

  The useful life of dessicant materials depends largely on the quantity and
  type of contamination in the airstreams they dry. In commercial equipment,
  dessicants last between 10,000 and 100,000 hr and longer before they need
  replacement... Liquid absorbents are more susceptible to chemical reaction
  with airstream contaminants other than water vapor than are solid[s]. For
  example, certain sulfur compounds can react with lithium chloride to form
  lithium sulfate, which is not a dessicant. If the concentration of such
  compounds in the airstream were below 10 ppm and the dessicant were in use
  24 h a day, the capacity reduction would be approximately 10% to 20% after
  three years of operations. [At] 30 ppm, the capacity change would occur 
  after one year... In air-conditioning applications, dessicant equipment is
  designed to minimize the need for dessicant replacement in much the same way
  that vapor compression cooling systems are designed to avoid the need for
  compressor replacement. Unlike filters, dessicants are seldom intended to
  be frequently replaced during normal service in an air-drying application. 

I'd like to know more about this subject, for instance what are the rates
for water vapor absorption, and how much do these materials cost?

Nick



From longiese@unlimited.net Tue Feb 11 16:21:38 EST 1997
Article: 1551 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!supernews.com!ts1-49.unlimited.net!user
From: longiese@unlimited.net (Lon Giese)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 18:48:54 -0800
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.net-link.com
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts1-49.unlimited.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1551

Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that 
I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
made from disassembled soda cans.

Please reply to xspb42a@prodigy.com or this news group.

Also if anyone is interested in my dish inquiries welcome.

Thanks 
Howie29


From Sdasaro@nassau.cv.net Tue Feb 11 16:21:40 EST 1997
Article: 1552 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!167.206.32.7!news1.nassau.cv.net!news
From: Sdasaro@nassau.cv.net (Stevo)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water to heat/cool a house
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 18:32:15 GMT
Organization: CableVision InterNetNews site
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <32f6466c.13426240@news-server>
References: <5clvie$521@brtph500.bnr.ca> <32EFB430.9F2@flash.net> <5cqmkt$o2k@brtph500.bnr.ca> <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.4.39.181
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:22235 alt.solar.thermal:1552 alt.architecture.alternative:9619 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11692

Your post was most interesting.
My son just purchased a 5 acre lot in Mill Neck New York (Long Island)
It's a relatively flat parcel with plenty of open space (so when the
sun shines it will get to the structure.)  He will be building a
4-5000 sq. ft. home and is interested in utilizing geothermal , solar,
or other alternative energy source. Will this fly in our area?   We
have not yet contracted a builder, feeling that a general plan should
be worked out, then a real architectoral design made up.  Do  you know
anyone in our area?  Could you point us at a source of plans to
ponder?
Thanking you in advance
Stevo
On 31 Jan 1997 08:31:19 -0500, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Al Hartkopf <ingraih@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>>I think ceiling fans in every room will do the job of circulating the air
>>around the room and result in an overall cooling of the room due to the
>>temperature of the slab. Think that will work?
>
>Conduction works well with 2" concrete walls insulated on the outside.
>Monolithic Domes have 2" of concrete with 3" of foam on the outside, and
>the temperature difference from top to bottom of a 200' diameter dome is
>said to be less than 5 F. A nice solar house: the sun shines in a window
>or insulated air heater and warms the room, and the warm air rises to the
>ceiling and heat conducts back down the walls. Perhaps these domes distribute 
>solar heat too well... They might work even better as solar houses with some
>way to control the heatflow, storing heat at a higher temperature in the mass
>above, eg the concrete roof or a 110 F ceiling pond with some foil underneath
>and a horizontal ring of form insulation replacing part of the concrete wall,
>with a few vertical water pipes running through the ring instead of plain 
>reinforcing rod.
>
>Where will the coolth come from, in your house? How much is needed? How
>much groundwater flows under the site? How deep? Perhaps you could use a
>floorslab in contact with the ground, with pipes running through it, with
>insulation around the perimeter and on top, and insulate the slab from the
>walls of the house. Foam will support 10-30 psi...
>
>>This will be built in North Carolina, west of Raleigh.
>
>Looks like a great place for a solar house. January is probably the most
>difficult month for solar heating in Raleigh, with an average of 1130 Btu/ft^2
>of sun falling on a south wall and a 24 hour average air temperature of 38.9 F
>and an average daily max temp of 48.9 F, according to NREL. The next step
>might be to calculate the heat loss of your house using ASHRAE arithmetic,
>by adding up each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. You may not
>have much wind/air leakage with concrete walls. The average yearly air temp
>in Raleigh is 59.3 F, which might be close to ground and slab temps.
>
>>The terrain is rolling hills and the altitude is a little above Raleigh. We
>>think that a hefty roof overhang, calculated to allow winter light in, is
>>in order. Still on the right track?
>
>NREL suggests 1' of south glazing height needs 0.293' of opaque surface
>above it and 0.417' of overhang above that at your 36 N latitude. 
>
>>One issue along these lines of cool slab and cool room is condensation.
>>Anybody now how to predict the temperature that "dew" will begin to form
>>on the cooled floor? Seems like it is a temperature difference that causes
>>this.
>
>And air leakage. Where else does the water vapor come from? Seems like a good
>idea to ventilate this house at night, and button it up during the day. July
>looks like the warmest month in Raleigh, with an average air temp of 78.1 F,
>88 during the day and 68.1 at night. 
>
>>...the southwest. That's the only place I ever saw those water cooled heat
>>exchangers. We lived in Yuma (hot!) and that thing really kept us coooolll.
>
>Sounds like you are talking about evaporative cooling. NREL says the average
>humidity ratio in July is W = 0.0149 lb water vapor/lb dry air, corresponding
>to a water vapor partial pressure of p/(1+0.62198/W), with p = 14.5 psia in
>Raleigh, and less at your higher altitude; 68 F air has W = 0.01478 at
>saturation, so you might see fog at night and dew on the morning grass,
>without much use for evaporative cooling (how about a roof pond?)   
>
>>I thought about doing exactly this as it would provide a platform for
>>dehumidifying the house. Thats a real concern when things start to drip
>>around here in July.
>
>I don't think evaporative cooling would help this house much, but a dark
>low-thermal-mass dessicant sunspace floor might absorb water vapor from house
>air in the early morning, and dry and bake out in the sun with the sunspace
>vented to the outdoors during the day. The sunspace floor might be lightweight
>reinforced concrete insulated below, containing expanded shale which absorbs
>13% of its weight in water. It might have a polyethylene glycol fountain
>absorbing 11 times its weight in water... How much water vapor do you need
>to absorb to keep your house at 50% RH and 75 F inside, if it leaks 1 ACH
>for 12 hours a day?
>
>Nick
>



From ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 11 16:21:41 EST 1997
Article: 1553 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: John Dunaj <ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32FE297C.3B24@worldnet.att.net>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.116.100.82
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1553

Lon Giese wrote:
> 
> Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that
> I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
> made from disassembled soda cans.
> 
> Please reply to xspb42a@prodigy.com or this news group.
> 
> Also if anyone is interested in my dish inquiries welcome.
> 
> Thanks
> Howie29

OK, I'll bite. Tell us more about your "dish" and why you need a 10KW 
turbine?


From GerowFM@Oceana.net Tue Feb 11 16:21:42 EST 1997
Article: 1554 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cns.net!not-for-mail
From: "Fred M. Gerow" <GerowFM@Oceana.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water to heat/cool a house
Date: 9 Feb 1997 21:51:58 GMT
Organization: CNS
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <01bc16d3$cbadb240$c43484cd@gerow>
References: <5clvie$521@brtph500.bnr.ca> <32EFB430.9F2@flash.net> <5cqmkt$o2k@brtph500.bnr.ca> <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <5d6dmn$npn@wilma.widomaker.com> <5d7qqc$11i$2@newsmaster.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: courier3.robocop.oceana.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:22240 alt.solar.thermal:1554 alt.architecture.alternative:9622 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11695

If you have south facing glass and a humidity problem you have a couple of
choices.  One would be an air to air heat exchanger and another would be a
solar green house full of green growies that should if properly managed
balance the equation.  KISS


Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote in article
<5d7qqc$11i$2@newsmaster.pathcom.com>...
> alanh@widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz) wrote:
> 
> >In <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu> nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> 
> >>NREL suggests 1' of south glazing height needs 0.293' of opaque surface
> >>above it and 0.417' of overhang above that at your 36 N latitude. 
> 
> >   I am not visualizing this. Can you explain what is meant? Ascii art,
> >maybe?
> 
> 
> >>And air leakage. Where else does the water vapor come from? 
> 
> >     Those darn inhabitants, Nick. Wouldn't it be easier if people
didn't
> >insist on _breathing_ inside their own homes?
> 
> >I feel that water evaporation from the toilet and in the plumbing's
water
> >traps can be a source of water vapor.
> 
> Let's see...... cooking, bathing, washing floors/counters etc.,
> plants, dogs, cats, birds, fish (tanks)..........
> 
> It should be a well known fact that air tight houses have humidity
> problems (too much) because of the water vapour that is generated
> INSIDE the house.
> 
> Andy McKegney
> 
> 


From sm@cph.ih.dk Tue Feb 11 16:21:43 EST 1997
Article: 1555 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!ais.net!news.stealth.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.89.123.24!nntp.inet.fi!news.funet.fi!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!news-inn.uni-c.dk!news.uni-c.dk!not-for-mail
From: sven munk <sm@cph.ih.dk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: chimney effect calculation ?
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:32:25 +0100
Organization: ikt
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32FDFC19.40C6@cph.ih.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: smunk.cph.ih.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1555

I am looking for methods to quantify the chimney effect and examples
of its use - preferably with measurements.

The principle in the chimney effect (btw I am sure if this
expression is understood everywhere) is based on the fact that
heating air by solar power will make it hotter and less density
will follow. If the heated air is in a channel (chimney) it
will raise and draw cool air in at the bottom of the channel.
In short: The chimney effect can be used to move air by solar power.

Suggestions and info welcomed

sven munk
IKT
sm@cph.ih.dk


From moss@dial.pipex.com Tue Feb 11 16:21:44 EST 1997
Article: 1556 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.missouri.edu!newshub.more.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-feed1.globalnet.co.uk!kew.globalnet.co.uk!usenet
From: moss@dial.pipex.com (Carl Moss)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: translucent window films
Date: 9 Feb 1997 15:07:21 GMT
Organization: Claxton Moss Ltd
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5dkp79$sji@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: client8325.globalnet.co.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1556

would welcome product information on self-apply window coverings to deflect sun 
and provide privacy.

preferably uk-sourced

thanks

carl moss
cm@invest.co.uk



From jeff.swanson@cplc.com Tue Feb 11 16:21:45 EST 1997
Article: 1558 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-16.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!NEWS!not-for-mail
From: "Anythingforabuck" <jeff.swanson@cplc.com>
Subject: Re: water vapor, rocks, air leakiness and relative humidity
Message-ID: <01bc1613$ab96aea0$6c036e9f@PC007558.RAL.CPLC.COM>
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 22:55:28 GMT
References: <5dbhpr$se8@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5dcloq$n49@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1157
Lines: 6
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:9630 alt.energy.renewable:22255 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11706 alt.solar.thermal:1558

Basements and wine cellars use this principle to stay nice and cozy year
'round.  
So do dungeons.
Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote in article
<5dcloq$n49@ufo.ee.vill.edu>...




From swanton@river.gwi.net Tue Feb 11 16:21:46 EST 1997
Article: 1559 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.120.68.2!news.gwi.net!not-for-mail
From: swanton@river.gwi.net (george p swanton)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: 10 Feb 1997 12:01:25 -0500
Organization: Biddeford Internet Corp.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5dnk95$7aj@river.gwi.net>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: river.gwi.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1559

In article <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>,
Lon Giese <longiese@unlimited.net> wrote:
>Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that 
>I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
>made from disassembled soda cans.

You're using a 4' diameter dish made from old soda cans and you want
a _10KW_ _turbine_? How do you figure?

If you do build this thing, do be careful about the boiler part ok?

gps



From london@sunsite.unc.edu Tue Feb 11 16:21:47 EST 1997
Article: 1560 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!calzone.oit.unc.edu!london
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Request info on Dow Corning's FORMULAR rigid polystyrene insulation (any toxicity for indoor use?)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:52:50 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970210222612.8382B-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
To: greenbuilding@crest.org
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1560


I need to insulate the interior surface of a concrete block wall in 
my house with Dow Cornings's FORMULAR rigid high density insulation 
(FORMULAR 600, which has the highest density/PSI rating). This is in
my living space in a room heated with a woodstove. I plan to construct a 
cavity wall to cover this insulation and to provide thermal mass, i.e. the 
insulation will be sandwiched between two block walls and sealed 
against contact with room air with cement and caulking as necessary.

Does anyone know whether FORMULAR will outgas toxic fumes over the short 
or long term? Will  my containment system be adequate to prevent 
infiltration of any possible toxics into my living space? As it will be 
exposed to moderate heat due to proximity to the outer block wall warmed 
by the woodstove I am wondering if this factor would result in the 
stimulation or acceleration of outgassing.
 
If FORMULAR turns out to not be acceptable for this application does 
anyone know of a rigid insulation that would be?

Many thanks for any advice or pointers to resources on this subject.

Some of you may find my renewable energy page interesting.

Lawrence London
Chapel Hill, N.C.

london@sunSITE.unc.edu
london@nuteknet.com
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy.html
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden




From gerety@student.umass.edu Tue Feb 11 16:21:48 EST 1997
Article: 1561 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!robby.oit.umass.edu!nscs46p6.remote.umass.edu
From: Andrew Gerety <gerety@student.umass.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Thermal solar collectors
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:08:56 -0500
Organization: Umass
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <32FFFEE8.5B3C@student.umass.edu>
Reply-To: gerety@student.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: robby.oit.umass.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-HWY1NE  (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1561

Who can send me ADRESSES from companies that build solar thermal
collectors for domestic hot water purposes? Do you know from any company
who supplies these systems for LATIN AMERICA?

Thank you for any information. 

Post me or write me personally: gunnar@acad.umass.edu


From kriegsman@a1.nl Tue Feb 11 16:21:49 EST 1997
Article: 1562 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!news.a1.nl!news
From: kriegsman@a1.nl (kriegsman)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Antw: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 18:35:33 GMT
Organization: a1.nl
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <N.021197.193533.78@a3.a1.nl>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: a1-42-101.a1.nl
X-Newsreader: Quarterdeck Message Center [1.1]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1562


> Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that 
> I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
> made from disassembled soda cans.
> 
> Please reply to xspb42a@prodigy.com or this news group.
> 
> Also if anyone is interested in my dish inquiries welcome.
> 
> Thanks 
> Howie29

I can't figure out why you need a 10 kW turbine when you have a dish of four 
feet.

According to my calculations (metrical):

Diameter 4 feet = 1.22 meter
Area = 1.17 m^2
Energyflux from sun max. about 1 kW / m^2
So thermal power from dish is about 1.17 kW as a max.

This means that you need a turbine of about 450 Watts.
This is with an assumed thermal efficiency of 40%, which you will probably 
never reach, because you need very high steam temperatures for that.

Please explain why you need 10 kW.

Z. Kriegsman




From Sdasaro@nassau.cv.net Wed Feb 12 12:58:36 EST 1997
Article: 1552 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!167.206.32.7!news1.nassau.cv.net!news
From: Sdasaro@nassau.cv.net (Stevo)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water to heat/cool a house
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 18:32:15 GMT
Organization: CableVision InterNetNews site
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <32f6466c.13426240@news-server>
References: <5clvie$521@brtph500.bnr.ca> <32EFB430.9F2@flash.net> <5cqmkt$o2k@brtph500.bnr.ca> <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.4.39.181
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:22235 alt.solar.thermal:1552 alt.architecture.alternative:9619 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11692

Your post was most interesting.
My son just purchased a 5 acre lot in Mill Neck New York (Long Island)
It's a relatively flat parcel with plenty of open space (so when the
sun shines it will get to the structure.)  He will be building a
4-5000 sq. ft. home and is interested in utilizing geothermal , solar,
or other alternative energy source. Will this fly in our area?   We
have not yet contracted a builder, feeling that a general plan should
be worked out, then a real architectoral design made up.  Do  you know
anyone in our area?  Could you point us at a source of plans to
ponder?
Thanking you in advance
Stevo
On 31 Jan 1997 08:31:19 -0500, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Al Hartkopf <ingraih@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>>I think ceiling fans in every room will do the job of circulating the air
>>around the room and result in an overall cooling of the room due to the
>>temperature of the slab. Think that will work?
>
>Conduction works well with 2" concrete walls insulated on the outside.
>Monolithic Domes have 2" of concrete with 3" of foam on the outside, and
>the temperature difference from top to bottom of a 200' diameter dome is
>said to be less than 5 F. A nice solar house: the sun shines in a window
>or insulated air heater and warms the room, and the warm air rises to the
>ceiling and heat conducts back down the walls. Perhaps these domes distribute 
>solar heat too well... They might work even better as solar houses with some
>way to control the heatflow, storing heat at a higher temperature in the mass
>above, eg the concrete roof or a 110 F ceiling pond with some foil underneath
>and a horizontal ring of form insulation replacing part of the concrete wall,
>with a few vertical water pipes running through the ring instead of plain 
>reinforcing rod.
>
>Where will the coolth come from, in your house? How much is needed? How
>much groundwater flows under the site? How deep? Perhaps you could use a
>floorslab in contact with the ground, with pipes running through it, with
>insulation around the perimeter and on top, and insulate the slab from the
>walls of the house. Foam will support 10-30 psi...
>
>>This will be built in North Carolina, west of Raleigh.
>
>Looks like a great place for a solar house. January is probably the most
>difficult month for solar heating in Raleigh, with an average of 1130 Btu/ft^2
>of sun falling on a south wall and a 24 hour average air temperature of 38.9 F
>and an average daily max temp of 48.9 F, according to NREL. The next step
>might be to calculate the heat loss of your house using ASHRAE arithmetic,
>by adding up each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. You may not
>have much wind/air leakage with concrete walls. The average yearly air temp
>in Raleigh is 59.3 F, which might be close to ground and slab temps.
>
>>The terrain is rolling hills and the altitude is a little above Raleigh. We
>>think that a hefty roof overhang, calculated to allow winter light in, is
>>in order. Still on the right track?
>
>NREL suggests 1' of south glazing height needs 0.293' of opaque surface
>above it and 0.417' of overhang above that at your 36 N latitude. 
>
>>One issue along these lines of cool slab and cool room is condensation.
>>Anybody now how to predict the temperature that "dew" will begin to form
>>on the cooled floor? Seems like it is a temperature difference that causes
>>this.
>
>And air leakage. Where else does the water vapor come from? Seems like a good
>idea to ventilate this house at night, and button it up during the day. July
>looks like the warmest month in Raleigh, with an average air temp of 78.1 F,
>88 during the day and 68.1 at night. 
>
>>...the southwest. That's the only place I ever saw those water cooled heat
>>exchangers. We lived in Yuma (hot!) and that thing really kept us coooolll.
>
>Sounds like you are talking about evaporative cooling. NREL says the average
>humidity ratio in July is W = 0.0149 lb water vapor/lb dry air, corresponding
>to a water vapor partial pressure of p/(1+0.62198/W), with p = 14.5 psia in
>Raleigh, and less at your higher altitude; 68 F air has W = 0.01478 at
>saturation, so you might see fog at night and dew on the morning grass,
>without much use for evaporative cooling (how about a roof pond?)   
>
>>I thought about doing exactly this as it would provide a platform for
>>dehumidifying the house. Thats a real concern when things start to drip
>>around here in July.
>
>I don't think evaporative cooling would help this house much, but a dark
>low-thermal-mass dessicant sunspace floor might absorb water vapor from house
>air in the early morning, and dry and bake out in the sun with the sunspace
>vented to the outdoors during the day. The sunspace floor might be lightweight
>reinforced concrete insulated below, containing expanded shale which absorbs
>13% of its weight in water. It might have a polyethylene glycol fountain
>absorbing 11 times its weight in water... How much water vapor do you need
>to absorb to keep your house at 50% RH and 75 F inside, if it leaks 1 ACH
>for 12 hours a day?
>
>Nick
>



From ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 12 12:58:37 EST 1997
Article: 1553 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: John Dunaj <ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 14:46:04 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32FE297C.3B24@worldnet.att.net>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.116.100.82
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1553

Lon Giese wrote:
> 
> Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that
> I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
> made from disassembled soda cans.
> 
> Please reply to xspb42a@prodigy.com or this news group.
> 
> Also if anyone is interested in my dish inquiries welcome.
> 
> Thanks
> Howie29

OK, I'll bite. Tell us more about your "dish" and why you need a 10KW 
turbine?


From GerowFM@Oceana.net Wed Feb 12 12:58:38 EST 1997
Article: 1554 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cns.net!not-for-mail
From: "Fred M. Gerow" <GerowFM@Oceana.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water to heat/cool a house
Date: 9 Feb 1997 21:51:58 GMT
Organization: CNS
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <01bc16d3$cbadb240$c43484cd@gerow>
References: <5clvie$521@brtph500.bnr.ca> <32EFB430.9F2@flash.net> <5cqmkt$o2k@brtph500.bnr.ca> <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <5d6dmn$npn@wilma.widomaker.com> <5d7qqc$11i$2@newsmaster.pathcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: courier3.robocop.oceana.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:22240 alt.solar.thermal:1554 alt.architecture.alternative:9622 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11695

If you have south facing glass and a humidity problem you have a couple of
choices.  One would be an air to air heat exchanger and another would be a
solar green house full of green growies that should if properly managed
balance the equation.  KISS


Andrew McKegney <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote in article
<5d7qqc$11i$2@newsmaster.pathcom.com>...
> alanh@widomaker.com (Alan Horowitz) wrote:
> 
> >In <5css77$pqa@ufo.ee.vill.edu> nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
> 
> >>NREL suggests 1' of south glazing height needs 0.293' of opaque surface
> >>above it and 0.417' of overhang above that at your 36 N latitude. 
> 
> >   I am not visualizing this. Can you explain what is meant? Ascii art,
> >maybe?
> 
> 
> >>And air leakage. Where else does the water vapor come from? 
> 
> >     Those darn inhabitants, Nick. Wouldn't it be easier if people
didn't
> >insist on _breathing_ inside their own homes?
> 
> >I feel that water evaporation from the toilet and in the plumbing's
water
> >traps can be a source of water vapor.
> 
> Let's see...... cooking, bathing, washing floors/counters etc.,
> plants, dogs, cats, birds, fish (tanks)..........
> 
> It should be a well known fact that air tight houses have humidity
> problems (too much) because of the water vapour that is generated
> INSIDE the house.
> 
> Andy McKegney
> 
> 


From sm@cph.ih.dk Wed Feb 12 12:58:39 EST 1997
Article: 1555 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!ais.net!news.stealth.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.89.123.24!nntp.inet.fi!news.funet.fi!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!news-inn.uni-c.dk!news.uni-c.dk!not-for-mail
From: sven munk <sm@cph.ih.dk>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: chimney effect calculation ?
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:32:25 +0100
Organization: ikt
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <32FDFC19.40C6@cph.ih.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: smunk.cph.ih.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1555

I am looking for methods to quantify the chimney effect and examples
of its use - preferably with measurements.

The principle in the chimney effect (btw I am sure if this
expression is understood everywhere) is based on the fact that
heating air by solar power will make it hotter and less density
will follow. If the heated air is in a channel (chimney) it
will raise and draw cool air in at the bottom of the channel.
In short: The chimney effect can be used to move air by solar power.

Suggestions and info welcomed

sven munk
IKT
sm@cph.ih.dk


From moss@dial.pipex.com Wed Feb 12 12:58:40 EST 1997
Article: 1556 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.missouri.edu!newshub.more.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-feed1.globalnet.co.uk!kew.globalnet.co.uk!usenet
From: moss@dial.pipex.com (Carl Moss)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: translucent window films
Date: 9 Feb 1997 15:07:21 GMT
Organization: Claxton Moss Ltd
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5dkp79$sji@kew.globalnet.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: client8325.globalnet.co.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1556

would welcome product information on self-apply window coverings to deflect sun 
and provide privacy.

preferably uk-sourced

thanks

carl moss
cm@invest.co.uk



From jeff.swanson@cplc.com Wed Feb 12 12:58:41 EST 1997
Article: 1558 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-16.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!NEWS!not-for-mail
From: "Anythingforabuck" <jeff.swanson@cplc.com>
Subject: Re: water vapor, rocks, air leakiness and relative humidity
Message-ID: <01bc1613$ab96aea0$6c036e9f@PC007558.RAL.CPLC.COM>
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 22:55:28 GMT
References: <5dbhpr$se8@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5dcloq$n49@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1157
Lines: 6
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:9630 alt.energy.renewable:22255 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:11706 alt.solar.thermal:1558

Basements and wine cellars use this principle to stay nice and cozy year
'round.  
So do dungeons.
Nick Pine <nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu> wrote in article
<5dcloq$n49@ufo.ee.vill.edu>...




From swanton@river.gwi.net Wed Feb 12 12:58:42 EST 1997
Article: 1559 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.120.68.2!news.gwi.net!not-for-mail
From: swanton@river.gwi.net (george p swanton)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: 10 Feb 1997 12:01:25 -0500
Organization: Biddeford Internet Corp.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5dnk95$7aj@river.gwi.net>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: river.gwi.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1559

In article <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>,
Lon Giese <longiese@unlimited.net> wrote:
>Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that 
>I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
>made from disassembled soda cans.

You're using a 4' diameter dish made from old soda cans and you want
a _10KW_ _turbine_? How do you figure?

If you do build this thing, do be careful about the boiler part ok?

gps



From london@sunsite.unc.edu Wed Feb 12 12:58:43 EST 1997
Article: 1560 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!calzone.oit.unc.edu!london
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Request info on Dow Corning's FORMULAR rigid polystyrene insulation (any toxicity for indoor use?)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:52:50 -0500
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970210222612.8382B-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
To: greenbuilding@crest.org
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1560


I need to insulate the interior surface of a concrete block wall in 
my house with Dow Cornings's FORMULAR rigid high density insulation 
(FORMULAR 600, which has the highest density/PSI rating). This is in
my living space in a room heated with a woodstove. I plan to construct a 
cavity wall to cover this insulation and to provide thermal mass, i.e. the 
insulation will be sandwiched between two block walls and sealed 
against contact with room air with cement and caulking as necessary.

Does anyone know whether FORMULAR will outgas toxic fumes over the short 
or long term? Will  my containment system be adequate to prevent 
infiltration of any possible toxics into my living space? As it will be 
exposed to moderate heat due to proximity to the outer block wall warmed 
by the woodstove I am wondering if this factor would result in the 
stimulation or acceleration of outgassing.
 
If FORMULAR turns out to not be acceptable for this application does 
anyone know of a rigid insulation that would be?

Many thanks for any advice or pointers to resources on this subject.

Some of you may find my renewable energy page interesting.

Lawrence London
Chapel Hill, N.C.

london@sunSITE.unc.edu
london@nuteknet.com
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy.html
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden




From gerety@student.umass.edu Wed Feb 12 12:58:44 EST 1997
Article: 1561 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!robby.oit.umass.edu!nscs46p6.remote.umass.edu
From: Andrew Gerety <gerety@student.umass.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Thermal solar collectors
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:08:56 -0500
Organization: Umass
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <32FFFEE8.5B3C@student.umass.edu>
Reply-To: gerety@student.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: robby.oit.umass.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-HWY1NE  (Win95; U)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1561

Who can send me ADRESSES from companies that build solar thermal
collectors for domestic hot water purposes? Do you know from any company
who supplies these systems for LATIN AMERICA?

Thank you for any information. 

Post me or write me personally: gunnar@acad.umass.edu


From kriegsman@a1.nl Wed Feb 12 12:58:45 EST 1997
Article: 1562 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!news.a1.nl!news
From: kriegsman@a1.nl (kriegsman)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Antw: Need a Steam Turbine aprox 10KW
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 97 18:35:33 GMT
Organization: a1.nl
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <N.021197.193533.78@a3.a1.nl>
References: <longiese-0802971848550001@ts1-49.unlimited.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: a1-42-101.a1.nl
X-Newsreader: Quarterdeck Message Center [1.1]
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1562


> Can anyone give me an idea about how or where to get a steam turbine that 
> I can use for solar heat experiments.  I am using four foot Parabolic dish
> made from disassembled soda cans.
> 
> Please reply to xspb42a@prodigy.com or this news group.
> 
> Also if anyone is interested in my dish inquiries welcome.
> 
> Thanks 
> Howie29

I can't figure out why you need a 10 kW turbine when you have a dish of four 
feet.

According to my calculations (metrical):

Diameter 4 feet = 1.22 meter
Area = 1.17 m^2
Energyflux from sun max. about 1 kW / m^2
So thermal power from dish is about 1.17 kW as a max.

This means that you need a turbine of about 450 Watts.
This is with an assumed thermal efficiency of 40%, which you will probably 
never reach, because you need very high steam temperatures for that.

Please explain why you need 10 kW.

Z. Kriegsman




From gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca Wed Feb 12 12:58:47 EST 1997
Article: 1563 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bctel.net!news
From: gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca (Graig Pearen)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Panels
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 02:14:18 GMT
Organization: BCTEL Advanced Communications
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5dr87i$oep3@news.bctel.net>
References: <32f6db7d.4201323@news.interchange.ubc.ca>
Reply-To: gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: pgrg01m01-85.bctel.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1563

mccall@interchange.ubc.ca (david mccall) wrote:

>For Sale  Solar panals for heating water  approximate size 4'x8' also
>waterpumps to suit ideal for cabins pools etc.
>e-mail for details -  mccall@interchange.ubc.ca 

Please tell me more! 

Graig

(Prince George, BC)



From isidoro@tinn.net Wed Feb 12 12:58:48 EST 1997
Article: 1564 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!194.179.1.100!minerva.ibernet.es!diana.ibernet.es!not-for-mail
From: "Isidoro Mateos" <isidoro@tinn.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Traduccion
Date: 11 Feb 1997 21:28:18 GMT
Organization: Grupo Espiral
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <01bc1863$03fbe500$6aaee0c2@alejandro>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.224.174.106
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1564

Mi nombre es Antonio Luis Mateos
Soy traductor de Ingles.
Con el titulo: Certificate of Proficiency in Inglish y Curso de
Traducción en The City Literature Londres (1993 - 1994)
y experiencia de dos años como traductor en Londres.
mi E-Mail es: aluis@hotmail.com


From zubob@global2000.net Sat Mar 22 21:14:51 EST 1997
Article: 1840 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.global2000.net!dialup-202.global2000.net!user
From: zubob@global2000.net (zubob)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: ZuCom Services GREAT DEAL!!! 10% off with this add
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:28:53 -0500
Organization: global2000.net
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <zubob-1903972028530001@dialup-202.global2000.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-202.global2000.net
X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1840

ZuCom Services

World Class Services
_________________________

We support all your Design, Printing, and Internet needs..

Services include:
      WEBPAGE DESIGN (Corporate and Personal)
      WEBSPACE (Corporate and Personal)
      Desktop Publishing
      Pre-Press 
      Graphic Design
      COLOR PRINTING
      Internet Solutions
      Internet Training and Education 
      Beta Testing
      More More More...
__________________________
Call or E-Mail us TODAY!!!!  10% OFF all services by mentioning this ad!!!

E-Mail:  ZuComCo@AOL.COM                        WebSite:
http://members.aol.com/zucomco
Call: (518)783-6799
Write: ZuCom Services
                P.O. Box 1391
           Latham, N.Y. 12110


From redrok@pclink.com Sat Mar 22 21:14:52 EST 1997
Article: 1841 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.lighting
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!xfer.kren.nm.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Estimating heating & lighting values of sunlight?
Message-ID: <3331643A.14B4@pclink.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:22:18 -0800
References: <01bc3480$7fe7fee0$780e05d1@rba.bconnex.net>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Ralph Bouwmeester <rba@bconnex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 38
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1841 sci.engr.lighting:7967

Hi Ralph;

Ralph Bouwmeester wrote:
> 
> Can anyone point me to a web site(s) that gives charts for the following:
> 1. Sunlight heating values (Btuh/sq. m.)?
> 2. Sunlight brightness?

> Ralph
> rba@bconnex.net

Try these guys:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/solrad/

They have all the real data you could posibly need about
any place in the US.

-- 
           \ \      \      \  \   \       \ Receiver
Stupid is Forever    \ Light\From the Sun  \     [*]
Ignorance can\be Fixed\      \  \   \       \ /////|
              \ \      \      \  \   \   / / / / //|
Ziggy          \ \      \      \  \ / \/  /  /\ /  |
WA0VBE          \ \      \     /\  /   /   /   / / |
Designer         \ \      /    / \  /   \/    / \  |
                  \ \/     /     /\  \ / \   /  /\ |
Duane C. Johnson  ===\ /    \ /    \ ===  \ /    ===
Red Rock Energy      ===    ===     \     ===  /
1825 Florence St.  Heliostat Mirror Control & Mounts
White Bear Lake, Minnesota            \ (C) 97/03 11
USA     55110-3364                     \
(612)635-5065 work                      \    /
(612)426-4766 home                       \
redrok@pclink.com      (my email address:)\ /
redrok2@juno.com       (my juno  address:)===
dcj2@PO8.RV.unisys.com (my Unisys address:)
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
These are my opinions and not that of Unisys.



From swanton@river.gwi.net Sat Mar 22 21:14:53 EST 1997
Article: 1842 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.gwi.net!not-for-mail
From: swanton@river.gwi.net (george p swanton)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y,alt.home.repair,sci.environment,talk.environment,aus.environment.conservation,aus.environment,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.misc,sci.electronics.misc,sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Starlite (was Re: THERMAL PAINT?)
Followup-To: sci.energy
Date: 20 Mar 1997 11:43:45 -0500
Organization: Biddeford Internet Corp.
Lines: 36
Sender: swanton@spamOff.gwi.net
Message-ID: <5grpg1$kij@river.gwi.net>
References: <5esuo7$557@park.interport.net> <3324A5D7.7195@band1.bandwidth.net> <rebry.450.0022091F@atomicsys.com> <332D78E9.24A9@anchor-new-mexico.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: river.gwi.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
x-no-archive: yes
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu uk.d-i-y:735 alt.home.repair:51016 sci.environment:123899 talk.environment:94209 aus.environment.conservation:1457 aus.environment:87 alt.energy.renewable:23409 sci.energy:64343 sci.misc:25281 sci.electronics.misc:22981 alt.solar.thermal:1842 alt.architecture.alternative:10445

In article <332D78E9.24A9@anchor-new-mexico.com>,
Willie Schmit, CRL <info@anchor-new-mexico.com> wrote:
>rebry@atomicsys.com wrote:

>> There is a material called " Starlite "  an inventor from england 
>> has created.

[...]

>> He does a demo. by dipping a raw egg in it and playing a Oxy-Acetelene torch
>> over it for 15 minutes. he then cracks the egg and it is still raw, with the
>> tempature still being the same as when started.
>> 
>> The web page is on the Discovery Channel's web page.

>I remember seeing a story on that stuff on tv somewhere
>I couldn't find the web page @ discovery
>I would love to hear more about the formula (common grocery store stuff)

I saw this program also. It was indeed fascinating. However, it
appears that inventor guards the formula and procedures for making
the stuff so jealously as to preclude its development for any real-world 
application. At least this was the situation some years ago. 
Can anyone report anything new?

This is unfortunate as it could prove _very_ useful if it performs as 
claimed. Paranoia aside, the only reason I can think of for not marketing 
the stuff is that the inventor is aware of some undisclosed undesirable
attribute which might prevent practical application (ie perhaps it 
biodegrades rapidly, is highly suceptible to UV radiation, etc). 

gps


Note: followups to sci.energy to cut crossposting
      (may not be the best group but seemed best of included groups)


From stevie2@ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 22 21:14:54 EST 1997
Article: 1843 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: Steve Segrest <stevie2@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Weekly Enviro & Energy News
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:02:07 -0500
Organization: Common Purpose
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3333E65F.55BF@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-18.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Mar 22  6:02:19 AM PST 1997
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1843

Energy & Environmental News For The Week Of March 17th at
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2958/news.html

Mon  -- Global Warming Initiatives In Europe
Tue  -- High Costs Estimates Of Enviro Compliance & Credibility
Wed  -- Is Ethanol Tax Credit Corporate Welfare?
Thr  -- Renewable Energy & Electricity Deregulation
Fri  -- Rio Earth Summit After 5 Years (National Public Radio)

Real Audio Segments:

***  -- Corporate Welfare And The Environment
***  -- Acid Snow And Power Plants

Brought To You By:
Common Purpose
A Non-Profit Organization
http://www.vivid.net/corp/commonpurpose


From edward@idcomm.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:05 EST 1997
Article: 1858 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: edward@idcomm.com (Ed)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:36:50 GMT
Organization: iSTAR internet Incorporated
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <5h7a7i$qv1@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <33143696.116462231@news2.lightlink.com> <AF366CE6-96E36@207.146.33.45> <3315066a.169674291@news2.lightlink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10521 alt.solar.thermal:1858 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12384 alt.energy.renewable:23480 sci.environment:124576

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:36:09 -0500, sscott@light-link.com (Steve
Scott) wrote:

>Agreed, we should be researching alternative sources of energy.  However
>I find it difficult to listen to doomsayers with a straight face.
>

It's kind of funny that you are the second person in this newsgroup to
say something like this, and yet I don't recall any doomsaying at all.

What are you reacting to if not to the postings here?


From REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME.Buchner@mega-com.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:06 EST 1997
Article: 1859 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME.Buchner@mega-com.com (David Buchner)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment,alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:36:53 GMT
Organization: the Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5h7a7l$qv3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <3309d8a6.2069404@superego.idcomm.com> <AF2F6659-15E9D@207.146.33.100> <5eeth9$rma@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <Buchner-2102970858590001@sebeka-9.dialup.means.net> <JMC.97Feb21173020@Steam.stanford.edu> <3311be55.2756787@superego.idcomm.com> <3312362b.116354647@news2.lightlink.com> <33132dc7.3022049@superego.idcomm.com> <331f0757.7158015@news2.lightlink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10522 alt.solar.thermal:1859 alt.energy.renewable:23481 sci.environment:124577 alt.energy.homepower:1291

In article <331f0757.7158015@news2.lightlink.com>, sscott@lightlink.com wrote:
> >>We'll be in a better position to determine that when it's proven that
> >>freon does damage to the ozone layer.
 
> >You mean after you have conducted your own personal investigation in
> >addition to the one done by NASA involving several special satellites
> >and a great deal of effort? Because those scientists are pretty
> >convinced.
 
> Yes, some scientists are very convinced.  And at least an equal number
> remain totally unconvinced.  There is nowhere near a consensus in the
> scientific community at this point.

Why is this civilization so stubborn in its insistence that everything
must have scientific-type *proof* of the right thing to do before doing
it? Absolutely the scientific process requires such repeatable, reliable
proof. But mightn't we be foolish to assume we should do *everything* this
way? It would be dumb to assume the correctness of cold fusion or
UFO's-are-alien-spaceships claims without solid verification, but human
issues, and issues which *might* involve immediate risk, are different.
Aren't they? People become resentful of scientific arrogance over just
this kind of thing -- where we're supposed to wait until They say so
before taking action.

-- 
Everyone else was doing it, so I put "REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME." in my return address. Remove it to, um, mail me.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:07 EST 1997
Article: 1860 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:36:49 GMT
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5h7a7h$qv1@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <3309d8a6.2069404@superego.idcomm.com> <33143696.116462231@news2.lightlink.com> <33132b15.2331343@superego.idcomm.com> <5f37m0$r3u$1@host-3.cyberhighway.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10523 alt.solar.thermal:1860 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12385 alt.energy.renewable:23482 sci.environment:124578

Sylvan Butler <NoJunk.sylvan@cyberhighway.net> wrote:

>The supply of oil will always be sufficient, but it will become more
>expensive if the supply begins to run low.

It might also become more expensive if we stopped bombing Iraq.

Nick



From REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME.Buchner@mega-com.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:08 EST 1997
Article: 1861 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME.Buchner@mega-com.com (David Buchner)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:36:54 GMT
Organization: the Department of Redundancy Department
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5h7a7m$qv3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <Buchner-2302972133190001@sebeka-24.dialup.means.net> <AF37D362-E83CE@207.146.46.250>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10524 alt.solar.thermal:1861 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12386 alt.energy.renewable:23483 sci.environment:124579

In article <AF37D362-E83CE@207.146.46.250>, "Greg Burgin"
<gburgin@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> I have an idea! Build a modified ice house. Superinsulate it and fill it
> with plastic 55 gal drums full of water and maybe some antifreeze. Maybe a
> couple thousand pounds of water would be enough. Through the winter a
> damper would open and perhaps a fan would circulate outside air into the
> ice house whenever the outside air is cooler. It should get very cold in
> the ice house. In the summer, circulate air between the ice house and your
> house. Even if the ice house warms it will always be cooler than peak
> summer! 

I like the 55-gal drum idea: then I *do* get to keep my water. Maybe also
less mold and stuff. But why antifreeze? I have a sort of vague idea that
a fairly large amount of the "cold storage" would be in the form of all
the energy water loses to become ice. Ice at zero-C can still suck up a
lot of heat as it melts, but antifreeze/water at zero just starts warming
up steadily.

I see that somebody got a bunch of poly drums FREE. No fair! Everyplace I
can get 'em around here is *selling* them (about $15), dirty and used,
because so many people want them to make recycling bins and swimming
rafts. Perhaps you could UUencode half a dozen of them and email them to
me?

-- 
Everyone else was doing it, so I put "REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME." in my return address. Remove it to, um, mail me.


From gburgin@mailhost.worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:08 EST 1997
Article: 1862 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: "Greg Burgin" <gburgin@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:36:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <5h7a7n$qv3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <JMC.97Mar13101240@Steam.stanford.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0001BF1B"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0b1
X-News-Servers: netnews.worldnet.att.net
        nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/alt.architecture.alternative, 
        nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/alt.solar.thermal, 
        nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/sci.engr.heat-vent-ac, 
        nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/alt.energy.renewable, 
        nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/sci.environment
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10525 alt.solar.thermal:1862 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12387 alt.energy.renewable:23484 sci.environment:124580


--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0001BF1B
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
X-Fontsize: 12
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Mar 13, 1997 1:12 PM, 
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0001BF1B
Content-Type: application/X-url
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: John McCarthy

bWFpbHRvOmptY0BTdGVhbS5zdGFuZm9yZC5lZHU=
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0001BF1B
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
X-Fontsize: 12
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 wrote: 

> By the way, if you use anti-freeze in the water you cool in winter,

> you don't get the benefit of the 80 calories/gram of extra coolth
that

> the heat of melting gives you.


Yes, that would be from the phase change. But forming ice could be
hard on the container holding the water.


Greg
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0001BF1B--



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:09 EST 1997
Article: 1863 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!cal.istar!news
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: 25 Mar 1997 01:37:03 GMT
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <5h7a7v$qv5@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
References: <Buchner-2302972133190001@sebeka-24.dialup.means.net> <REMOVE.TO.MAIL.ME.Buchner-1003970947300001@208.130.86.20> <5g9gvo$2qb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <332D76C5.3A57@anchor-new-mexico.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news-3.incentre.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10526 alt.solar.thermal:1863 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12388 alt.energy.renewable:23485 sci.environment:124581

Willie Schmit, CRL <info@anchor-new-mexico.com> wrote:

>>Seems like most people would like some sort of indoor pond to store solar
>>heat, with a waterfall and lots of plants and granite statues. I wonder how
>>to do that. If the pond were a lithium chloride solution it might release
>>heat by absorbing water vapor from plants in a ground-coupled garden or
>>a lawn in a sunspace. LiCl is a salt that can absorb about 12 times its
>>weight in water. A house might get 500K Btu (about 150 kWh) of heat for a
>>cloudy week by allowing about 50 pounds of dryish LiCl solution to absorb
>>500 pounds of water vapor, ie about 55 gallons of water. It would take 20
>>insulated 55 gallon drums full of 130 F water cooling to 80 F to store that
>>much heat. Can we store heat with no loss in an uninsulated pond with twenty
>>times less volume, and use the LiCl in some sort of passive ground-coupled
>>heat pump system? As a rule of thumb, each square foot of LiCl pond surface
>>can release about 40 Btu/hr of heat as it absorbs water vapor.

>If you look carefully you will notice a common thread to all this talk 
>about collection and storage of heat - the answer is MASS.

Well, the paragraph above describes evaporating and condensing water,
ie phase change, vs sensible heat storage in thermal mass. 

>I would sooner have 10 yards of concrete in my greenhouse than a stack of 
> expensive, leaky, clumsy 55 gallon drums (the ones that were filled with 
>toxins are usually cheap)

Hard to know where to begin... I get 40 free plastic drums every month from a
food processing plant, and they used to contain edible products like frying
oil or sauterne wine, or non-toxic products like soap or propylene glycol.

And drums in a greenhouse may work reasonably well for you in NM, but in
cloudy climates this cripples the solar house heating performance of a
sunspace by storing solar heat all day in the drums, which mostly leaves
through the low-thermal-resistance solar glazing on cloudy days and at night.
Better to put the drums inside the house, and let warm air flow through a
hole in an insulated wall during the day, heating the drums during the day,
and let the sunspace get icy cold at night, perhaps leaking some warm house
air deliberately and controllably into the greenhouse on a cold night as
needed to keep the plants from freezing. Better still to live outside the
heat battery and its temperature swings, and keep it at more than 70 F on
the average, so the house can be controllably heated by leaking warm air
>from  the warmstore to the house.

And concrete only stores about 1/3 as much heat as water by volume, with an
undesirably higher effective thermal resistance. Rock beds have OK thermal
resistance, but they require lots of fan power compared to a room full of
containers of water.

>BTW - get a keg of beer and a bunch of guys with rakes - plus 1 or 2 that 
>know concrete - and pick up the phone - they deliver.

The beer sounds nice, but concrete costs more than water. 

Then again, concrete is more rodent-resistant. 

   In our home solar heating system we used water as the thermal storage
   medium for an air-transfer unit, the water being contained in 1000
   one-gallon polyethylene bottles stacked so that air could flow between
   them. They worked satisfactorily until some desert pack rats invaded
   the storage bin, making nests of the insulation and chewing holes
   in the water bottles. 
                                 p 468, _Applied Solar Energy_, by
                                 Aden B. Meinel and Marjorie P. Meinel
                                 Addison-Wesley, 1976

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:10 EST 1997
Article: 1864 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Solar pool heater
Date: 24 Mar 1997 19:20:49 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <5h75p1$868@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
References: <5gbi0h$b51@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <AF521FF6-4C9A6@207.146.32.220> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970321233051.299A-100000@dwarf.nome.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1864 alt.energy.renewable:23486 alt.architecture.alternative:10589 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12389 sci.environment:124592

Morgoth  <morgoth@nome.net> wrote:

>...when the weather gets colder, having a cover might be a good idea...

Yes, say an R20 cover, like a good house wall...

Nick



From optics@srv.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:11 EST 1997
Article: 1865 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub3.barrnet.net!mars.hyperk.com!usenet
From: optics@srv.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Collectors
Date: 25 Mar 1997 05:38:18 GMT
Organization: SRVnet, Inc.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5h7oca$dqh@mars.hyperk.com>
References: <859226823.2911.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: optics@srv.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ras588.srv.net
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1865

In article <859226823.2911.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>, support@di-ren.demon.co.uk (Di-Ren) says:
>
>Given that most solar collectors are in a fixed position, would a
>vertical corrugated collector surface increase or decrease efficiency?
>
>Robin
>


It depends on your latitude.  In reality, their is an optimum elevation
angle for a solar collector for each day of the year.  I have some info
on this in my article at
http://www.srv.net/opt/sunchrt.html


From optics@srv.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:12 EST 1997
Article: 1866 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub3.barrnet.net!mars.hyperk.com!usenet
From: optics@srv.net
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Sun Chart info
Date: 25 Mar 1997 05:31:56 GMT
Organization: SRVnet, Inc.
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <5h7o0c$dqh@mars.hyperk.com>
Reply-To: optics@srv.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ras588.srv.net
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1866

I have an article on the web providing info on using suncharts in
passive solar design.  If interested, find it at:
http://www.srv.net/opt/sunchrt.html


From innrcrcl@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:13 EST 1997
Article: 1867 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Dennis Nelson <innrcrcl@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment
Subject: Re: storing solar heat
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:31:11 -0800
Organization: Inner Circle
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <33378D4F.77F3@worldnet.att.net>
References: <JMC.97Mar13101240@Steam.stanford.edu> <5h7a7n$qv3@nr1.calgary.istar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.153.196
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10591 alt.solar.thermal:1867 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12392 alt.energy.renewable:23492 sci.environment:124616

Greg Burgin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 13, 1997 1:12 PM,
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                                   Type: application/X-url
>             Attachment 2      Encoding: base64
>                            Description: John McCarthy
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> wrote:
> > By the way, if you use anti-freeze in the water you cool in winter,
> > you don't get the benefit of the 80 calories/gram of extra coolth
> that
> > the heat of melting gives you.
> 
> Yes, that would be from the phase change. But forming ice could be
> hard on the container holding the water.


Not if you leave room for expansion.


Dennis Nelson


From wings@primenet.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:14 EST 1997
Article: 1868 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail
From: wings@primenet.com (Gene A. Townsend)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Collectors
Date: 25 Mar 1997 04:05:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5h8bgu$l32@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <859226823.2911.0@di-ren.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: wings@primenet.com
X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.131 (wings)
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1868

support@di-ren.demon.co.uk (Di-Ren) wrote:

>Given that most solar collectors are in a fixed position, would a
>vertical corrugated collector surface increase or decrease efficiency?

>Robin

I built a solar collector a few years ago that was made of corrugated
galvanized steel and stood vertically.  It doubled as a night-time sky
radiator in the summer.

Corrugation increase the surface areas and their losses, so that will
reduce efficiency, but it does helps the stiffness of the structure.

I wanted to reduce solar collection in the summer, increase it in the
winter, and the east-west orientation of a vertical receiver does this
pretty well.  

The orientation has no effect on "efficiency", other than the
increased heat losses due to both surfaces being exposed to ambient,
rather than just one where the receiver is laid on a roof or other
structure.  Extra insulation on the back side is needed.

Also, the wind will place large forces on something like this if it is
very large, so consider this in the design.

Cheers,

Gene A. Townsend



From info@anchor-newmexico.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:15 EST 1997
Article: 1869 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!nmia!news
From: "Willie Schmit, CRL" <info@anchor-newmexico.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:56:24 -0800
Organization: Anchor Desktop Security
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3337F5A8.9F0@anchor-newmexico.com>
References: <5ffm2k$8un@news.epcc.edu> <19970306222700.RAA02216@ladder01.news.aol.com> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970310005215.19692A-100000@dwarf.nome.net> <01bc3709$bc98dfe0$499045cf@default> <5h47im$2kn@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup2.nmia.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10594 alt.solar.thermal:1869 alt.energy.renewable:23496

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Don Minton <minton2@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> >The whole point of the solid tire walls is its THERMAL MASS, not insulation.
> 
> Seems to me ya gotta have both, the former inside the latter.
> 
> >Hope you save your 55 gallon drums ... because you will need 55 of them to
> >equal the 3000 gallon cistern... Imagine what a real consuer would need!
> 
> 10,000-20,000 gallons, where I live. A 4' deep x 8' wide x 80' long pond?
> A nice thermal mass inside a house or a greenhouse, if it could somehow be
> surrounded by insulation...
> 
> Nick

Wherever I have studied the numbers - more than enough sunlight exists to 
heat a house to the 40-60% contribution needed to consider it a "solar 
heated" house.  What most people dismiss is the MASS.  There is a common 
idea that only water can be used as thermal storage. Sure earth or 
concrete can only store 1/2 of the heat that water can, but you can't 
build a house out of water. 
Add insulation - add mass - reduce north, west, east facing glazing - and 
prevent the loss of that heat by reducing south facing glass to the 
required size (and no more)


From agong@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:16 EST 1997
Article: 1870 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!news.pbi.net!news.pacbell.net!usenet
From: Alex Gong <gong@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Used/Surplus Solar Panels For Sale?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:51:12 -0800
Organization: A customer of Pacific Bell Internet Services
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <33383AC0.7AE4@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: agong@worldnet.att.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-170-212-220.lsan03.pacbell.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1870

I'm looking for some used/surplus/blemished solar panels. Can someone
please tell me where I can get these panels.
Thank you.


From sunsfre@interserv.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:17 EST 1997
Article: 1871 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.interserv.com!news
From: "kevin" <sunsfre@interserv.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: HELP !! Solar Production Equipment Wanted !!
Date: 25 Mar 1997 22:25:11 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <01bc396b$2623de20$5d87aec7@kevincre>
References: <332e68f8.11430167@news.otenet.gr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ad08-093.compuserve.com
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1871

test

navec@acci.gr wrote in article <332e68f8.11430167@news.otenet.gr>...
> N.A.V.E.C. Corporation in Athens, Greece, the first and only LEADING
> SOLAR ENERGY COMPANY in Greece,  is looking for the necessary
> machinery to buy in order to build a manufacturing unit of Solar
> Panels in Greece.
> 
> If anyone has information as of how to find and/or contact
> manufacturers who produce the necessary assembling and testing
> equipment, please send information to Mr Dimitris Zeppos at
> <zepposd@usa.net> and c/c <navec@acci.gr>.
> 
> Your help is grealty appreciated.
> 
> Dimitris Zeppos
> 


From lthwaits@aol.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:18 EST 1997
Article: 1872 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!mindspring!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: lthwaits@aol.com (L Thwaits)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Used/Surplus Solar Panels For Sale?
Date: 26 Mar 1997 00:04:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <19970326000401.TAA18836@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <33383AC0.7AE4@pacbell.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1872

Put me on that bandwagon -- I'm interested too!  Anyone with panels that
wants cash is someone I'd love to talk with.  Preferably within 350 miles
of Tucson / Phoenix area so I can come and pick up the units in person.

-Lorin Thwaits
In East Tucson, AZ
(520) 886-1421

PS: Even panels that are totally smashed are worth something to me.



From sfischer@javanet.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:19 EST 1997
Article: 1873 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.javanet.com!not-for-mail
From: sfischer@javanet.com (Seth Fischer)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Most efficient passive thermal project
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:30:32 GMT
Organization: JavaNet Cafe
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <33386ad7.4554907@news.javanet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: noho-us227.javanet.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1873

As the title suggests, I am looking for the most efficient passive
thermal way to heat my house. Will I be better off putting a sunroom
on my porch, filling it with thermal mass, and pumping the heat into
the house with a fan. Or, am I better off with a tromb wall?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Seth Fischer


From gburgin@mailhost.worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:20 EST 1997
Article: 1874 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: "Greg Burgin" <gburgin@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Most efficient passive thermal project
Date: 25 Mar 97 21:22:20 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <AF5DF28F-39D29@207.146.46.187>
References: <33386ad7.4554907@news.javanet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.146.46.187
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00039C49"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0
X-News-Servers: netnews.worldnet.att.net
X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/alt.solar.thermal
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1874


--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00039C49
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
X-Fontsize: 12
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Mar 25, 1997 8:30 PM, 
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00039C49
Content-Type: application/X-url
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Description: Seth Fischer

bWFpbHRvOnNmaXNjaGVyQGphdmFuZXQuY29t
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00039C49
X-Fontfamily: Geneva
X-Fontsize: 12
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 wrote:

> As the title suggests, I am looking for the most efficient passive

> thermal way to heat my house. Will I be better off putting a sunroom

> on my porch, filling it with thermal mass, and pumping the heat into

> the house with a fan. Or, am I better off with a tromb wall?

> 


It would seem to me that you need to choose between storing heat in a
sunspace OR pumping it into the house. I'd rather pump it into the
house. How about a low thermal mass vertical sunspace? Trombe walls
act as a wick drawing heat out of the house when the sun isn't
shining.


Greg
--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00039C49--



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:21 EST 1997
Article: 1875 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Solar storage tank design
Date: 26 Mar 1997 00:34:40 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <5hachg$jbr@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <01bc3509$3b2094a0$2b7831cf@default> <19970325193200.OAA01955@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:23515 alt.architecture.alternative:10613 alt.solar.thermal:1875 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12404 sci.environment:124757

Tvoivozhd <tvoivozhd@aol.com> wrote:

>...don't even think about a wooden tank.

Plywood tanks lined with EPDM rubber have been used for off-peak storage in
electric resistance house heating systems for years. Sven Tjernagel of STSS
(477 Woodcrest Drive, Mechanicsburg, PA 17055, USA) started making something
like tallish prefabricated steel circular swimming pools lined with EPDM and
foam when UL wouldn't approve site-built plywood tanks. (Sven built hundreds
of 10x20' solar collectors out of EPDM rubber bladders as well.)

>Go to the local library and have the librarian get on interlibrary 
>loan the two Ken Kern (deceased) books on "Owner-built home" and
>"Owner-built homestead".  Much cheaper, much better, much easier...

Perhaps not, for a 1000 gallon tank inside an existing garage.

>...think about using a phase-change material like Glauber's salt...

>From  what I've read, Glauber's salts get tired of changing phase after a few
hundred cycles, and have to be mechanically stirred up, or something, to help
them keep working. Corrosion, cost and getting enough thermal mass surface
area for charging with solar-warmed air without lots of electrical power for
fans and blowers can also be problems. And I've read that phase change waxes
catch fire, and often need to be stored outdoors, building-code-wise... 

>...I've forgotten the math, but phase-change materials occupy a lot smaller
>space than liquids---l/l0th?, l/20th?----and size of installation translates
>directly to cost.

How about water phase change in a lithium chloride solution? Cypress-Foote
Mineral sells LiCl for about $4/pound, and it can absorb 12X its weight in
water, at 1000 Btu/lb vs about 50 Btu/lb for sensible water heat storage, so
100 lb might store 1 million Btu for a cloudy week, in a house with lots of
internal thermal mass and external insulation, which can keep itself warm
with a low-thermal-mass sunspace for 24 hours over an average winter day,
with an average amount of sun. Put a solar still in the sunspace, store
concentrated LiCl in 2 uninsulated plastic 55 gallon drums in the house, and
let the LiCl somehow absorb water from a damp basement floor or an indoor lawn
as it evaporates with ground-coupled heat on a cloudy day?  

Then again, an all-masonry house with exterior insulation can have an RC time
constant of several weeks (and 1/3 the fire insurance rate), so all it needs
is a low-thermal-mass sunspace with lots of glazing, which gets cold at night.
Who needs more thermal storage? 

Nick



From Box, 830, Petersburg, AK, 99833 Thu Mar 27 21:53:22 EST 1997
Article: 1876 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!cyclic.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news1.agis.net!agis!newsgod.santaclara.agis.net!news4.agis.net!nntp.alaska.net!usenet	
From: "Judith R. Sarber" <jsarber@alaska.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Freezing water supply
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 01:59:20 +0000
Organization: JOBco
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <333882F8.29C0@alaska.net>
Reply-To: Box, 830, Petersburg, AK, 99833
NNTP-Posting-Host: psg-p1-14.alaska.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1876

Need some suggestions for keeping my water supply from freezing.  I 
collect rainwater off roof and store in cistern in back shed, which is 
only protection it gets at this time.  I can't sink a tank under the 
house because I only have 18-inches of overburden and hard shale 
beneath.  I live off the grid so there is no electricity.  I must leave 
my house for trips of 6-21 days.  Most of the time I have no problem, 
but when I am called out on a trip for several weeks in mid-winter, I 
must drain the system "in case" the weather turns cold.  Cold in this 
area is zero to 25-degrees, but cold weather means sunny weather.  I 
have "good" solar available for only 2-3 hrs during deepest winter.  
Does anyone have any suggestions?  I heard recently about a water 
container that can be put out for birds during winter, which has 
"channels" that prevent the water from freezing except during very cold 
periods.  Has anyone heard of this? or know of the principle behind it?


From wings@primenet.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:23 EST 1997
Article: 1877 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!mindspring!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail
From: wings@primenet.com (Gene A. Townsend)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass?
Date: 26 Mar 1997 04:13:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5hb0bt$779@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <5ffm2k$8un@news.epcc.edu> <19970306222700.RAA02216@ladder01.news.aol.com> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970310005215.19692A-100000@dwarf.nome.net> <01bc3709$bc98dfe0$499045cf@default> <5h47im$2kn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3337F5A8.9F0@anchor-newmexico.com>
Reply-To: wings@primenet.com
X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.145 (wings)
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10617 alt.solar.thermal:1877 alt.energy.renewable:23518

"Willie Schmit, CRL" <info@anchor-newmexico.com> wrote:

>Wherever I have studied the numbers - more than enough sunlight exists to 
>heat a house to the 40-60% contribution needed to consider it a "solar 
>heated" house.  What most people dismiss is the MASS.  There is a common 
>idea that only water can be used as thermal storage. Sure earth or 
>concrete can only store 1/2 of the heat that water can, but you can't 
>build a house out of water. 

The eskimos having been building igloos for thousands of years, made
entirely of water.

I thought very seriously about building a house with water walls and
ceiling.  Since I live in southern Arizona, the igloo is out.

I built an experimental water wall, using corrugated steel a few years
ago that acted like a vertical water solar collector/storage tank,
that worked fairly well.  Four of these, and I have a water house.

Do you think I could get a reduced fire insurance rate for this
design?

Cheers,

Gene A. Townsend



From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:24 EST 1997
Article: 1878 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!news-out.communique.net!communique!mr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclic.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 19:51:21 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <33387309.789D@patriot.net>
References: <5ffm2k$8un@news.epcc.edu> <19970306222700.RAA02216@ladder01.news.aol.com> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970310005215.19692A-100000@dwarf.nome.net> <01bc3709$bc98dfe0$499045cf@default> <5h47im$2kn@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-34.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10618 alt.solar.thermal:1878 alt.energy.renewable:23519

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> Don Minton <minton2@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> >The whole point of the solid tire walls is its THERMAL MASS, not insulation.
> 
> Seems to me ya gotta have both, the former inside the latter.

In an area with cold winters, this is true.  In areas, such as the
southwest US, that have warm days and cool evenings, the thermal mass
walls don't need insulation, because they simply 'flywheel' the
temperature swings.

Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:25 EST 1997
Article: 1879 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar collector thermostat
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:00:06 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <33387516.BBD@patriot.net>
References: <859173220.30400@dejanews.com> <3337f5e3.5092636@news.tyler.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-34.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1879

James Bassett wrote:
> 
> Use a yard light controler and a normaly closed relay.
> jb

There are a number of web sites that have such controls; one such is
http://www.rt66.com:80/aaasolar/controls.htm


> On Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:32:20 -0600, fedor@tnics.com wrote:
> 
> >I have a 4 X 8 foot solar water collector on my roof.  In the basement is
> >the storage tank and the pump to circulate the water.  In the morning I
> >turn the pump on to circulate the water and at night I turn the pump off.
> >What I want to do is put a small thermostat in a clear box on my roof that
> >would turn the pump off and on automatically.  Where can I purchase a
> >thermostat running on 120 volts that would turn the pump off and on.  The
> >pump only draws about forty watts.
> >
> >-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> >      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From solarboy@mdc.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:25 EST 1997
Article: 1880 of alt.solar.thermal
From: "Bill Teynor" <solarboy@mdc.net>
Subject: Re: seeking solar still
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
References: <hrick-2403970108440001@pm6-13.magicnet.net>
Organization: Tech Solar
Message-ID: <01bc39ab$643643c0$09d2c4d0@default>
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
NNTP-Posting-Host: computone1-ppp08.mdc.net
Date: 26 Mar 97 06:00:42 GMT
Lines: 19
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.66.240.253!news.netway.com!computone1-ppp08.mdc.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1880

Rick,

As a grad project, I'm designing a highly efficient solar still which that
should outperform any presently sold stills by 20%.  The design was
inspired by the need for clean water in third world countries where cost is
a crucial factor.  I estimate that this will run for about half the price
of its nearest competitor.

If interested, drop me a line at solarboy@mdc.net.

Sincerely,
Bill Teynor

Rick Harrison <hrick@magicnet.net> wrote in article
<hrick-2403970108440001@pm6-13.magicnet.net>...
> Are there any kits or prefabricated solar stills on the market?
> I'm looking for something that will generate about 1 gallon per
> day of distilled water.
> 


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:26 EST 1997
Article: 1881 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.etcfiber.net!pjm-gate.pjm.com!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: thermal mass?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 13:30:16 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5h95jo$cq8@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <5ffm2k$8un@news.epcc.edu> <01bc3709$bc98dfe0$499045cf@default> <5h47im$2kn@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3337F5A8.9F0@anchor-newmexico.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:10619 alt.solar.thermal:1881 alt.energy.renewable:23522

Willie Schmit, CRL <info@anchor-newmexico.com> wrote:
 
>Wherever I have studied the numbers - more than enough sunlight exists to 
>heat a house to the 40-60% contribution needed to consider it a "solar 
>heated" house.

Some people call houses "solar heated" when they have no other form of heat.

>There is a common idea that only water can be used as thermal storage.

Water is good...

>Add insulation - add mass - reduce north, west, east facing glazing - and 
>prevent the loss of that heat by reducing south facing glass to the 
>required size (and no more)

And you may end up with a 50% solar heated house. To raise that fraction,
you can put as much south glazing as you like in a low-thermal-mass sunspace 
that gets cold at night, and put the thermal mass in a part of the house
that ideally has a temp of more than 70 F, on an average day. 

Nick



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:27 EST 1997
Article: 1882 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Most efficient passive thermal project
Date: 26 Mar 1997 00:41:44 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5hacuo$je7@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <33386ad7.4554907@news.javanet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1882

Seth Fischer <sfischer@javanet.com> wrote:

>As the title suggests, I am looking for the most efficient passive
>thermal way to heat my house. Will I be better off putting a sunroom
>on my porch, filling it with thermal mass, and pumping the heat into
>the house with a fan. Or, am I better off with a tromb wall?

No. In both cases, most of the solar heat would be stored in the thermal mass
near the solar glazing during the day, and leave through the low thermal
resistance of the glazing at night. You would probably be far better off
with a low-thermal-mass sunspace and a fan, and lots of thermal mass INSIDE
the house...

Nick



From sei@solarenergy.org Thu Mar 27 21:53:28 EST 1997
Article: 1883 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.pbi.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.238.120.21!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:11:27 -0600
From: sei@solarenergy.org
Subject: PV WORKSHOPS IN D.C. (April 1997)
Newsgroups: talk.environment,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.environment,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.homepower
Message-ID: <859399612.21729@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: sei@solarenergy.org
Organization: Solar Energy International
To: oliver@topazmail.com
X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Mar 26 18:06:53 1997 GMT
X-Originating-IP-Addr: 199.117.105.1 (p1.Glenwood-Springs.dialup.csn.net)
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01Gold (Win16; I)
X-Authenticated-Sender: sei@solarenergy.org
Lines: 46
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu talk.environment:95014 alt.energy.renewable:23528 sci.energy:64547 sci.environment:124852 alt.solar.photovoltaic:2543 alt.solar.thermal:1883 alt.energy.homepower:1297

Solar Energy International is pleased to announce a series of three
Renwable Energy Workshops to be held in Washington D.C. prior to and
during the American Solar Energy Society's Annual Conference.

Workshop #1  Photovoltaic Design
Monday, April 21 - Thursday, April 24, 1997
4pm - 8pm each day

This workshop is a technical lecture series on photovoltaic design.
Topics will include solar electricity for remote homes and businesses,
solar site analysis, PV system components and energy efficient appliances.
Solar electric applications for developing countries will also be covered.
Registration fee includes PV manual and hand-outs.  Cost: $300 Late: $350

Workshop #2 Renewable Energy Technology Overview
Friday, April 25, 1997
8:30am - 5pm

This workshop is an overview of photovoltaics, wind power, micro-hydro
power and solar thermal technologies.  It will cover energy fundalmentals,
renewable energy applications, stand alone systems, hybrid systems and
applications for developing countries.  Registration fee includes
handouts.  Cost: $110 Late: $125

Workshop #3 Renewable Energy for Developing Countries
Saturday, April 26, 1997
8:30am - 5pm

This workshop explores how to successfully implement sustainable
development projects with renewable energy technologies.  Topics covered
include integrating women into renewable energy projects; effective
technology transfer; and setting up infrastructure, economics and
financing, and microenterprises utilizing renewable energy.  Registration
fee includes handouts.  Cost: $110 Late: $125

For more information about these workshops or to register please contact
us as soon as possible.

Solar Energy International
P.O. Box 715
Carbondale, CO 81623
tel: (970)963-8855 fax: (970)963-8866
email: sei@solarenergy.org  website: www.solarenergy.org

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet


From saturn@primenet.com Thu Mar 27 21:53:29 EST 1997
Article: 1884 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!saturn
From: Elaine Gallegos <saturn@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Solar pool heater
Date: 26 Mar 1997 20:45:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5hcqfu$t5m@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
References: <5gbi0h$b51@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <AF521FF6-4C9A6@207.146.32.220> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970321233051.299A-100000@dwarf.nome.net>
X-Posted-By: saturn@206.165.5.101 (saturn)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1884 alt.energy.renewable:23535 alt.architecture.alternative:10627 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12408 sci.environment:124912


 You can't use solar to heat a pool. The ground draws off all the heat.





Morgoth <morgoth@nome.net> wrote:
: What about some form of bottom of the pool solar energy
: absorbtion? I know people would not like a black bottom to their
: pool, so what else is there?

: I have seen where some are thinking of using low power microwaves
: (Popular Science/Mechanic) to heat rooms, what about some form of
: similar. Or maybe some two part system. One smaller pool that
: acts as the heating pool (black bottom?) (or a black or other
: made of absorbant material covered 55 gallon drum or like), that
: feeds into a larger pool (the main one).

: Of course when the weather gets colder, having a cover might be a
: good idea, maybe an automatice cover.




--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elaine Gallegos
saturn@primenet.com                  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:30 EST 1997
Article: 1885 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Solar storage tank design
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:22:07 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3339D9CF.16A1@patriot.net>
References: <01bc3509$3b2094a0$2b7831cf@default> <19970325193200.OAA01955@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5hachg$jbr@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-66.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:23537 alt.architecture.alternative:10631 alt.solar.thermal:1885 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12410 sci.environment:124950

Nick Pine wrote:
>
> >...think about using a phase-change material like Glauber's salt...
> 
> From what I've read, Glauber's salts get tired of changing phase after a few
> hundred cycles, and have to be mechanically stirred up, or something, to help
> them keep working. 

That was a problem years ago, but has since by rectified by various
additives.

> Corrosion, cost and getting enough thermal mass surface
> area for charging with solar-warmed air without lots of electrical power for
> fans and blowers can also be problems.

Direct gain is a perfect application of phase-change materials.

> And I've read that phase change waxes
> catch fire, and often need to be stored outdoors, building-code-wise...

I know people who use phase change waxes in storage tanks in their
homes.  Could you cite a building code that prohibits this?
 
Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From wstewart@patriot.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:31 EST 1997
Article: 1886 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news
From: Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Most efficient passive thermal project
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:28:37 -0500
Organization: PatriotNet, (703) 277-7737
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3339DB55.DDF@patriot.net>
References: <33386ad7.4554907@news.javanet.com> <AF5DF28F-39D29@207.146.46.187>
NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-66.patriot.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1886

Greg Burgin wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Mar 25, 1997 8:30 PM,
> 
>                                  Type: application/X-url
>                 Part 1.2     Encoding: base64
>                           Description: Seth Fischer
> 
> wrote:
> > As the title suggests, I am looking for the most efficient passive
> > thermal way to heat my house. Will I be better off putting a sunroom
> 
> > on my porch, filling it with thermal mass, and pumping the heat into
> 
> > the house with a fan. Or, am I better off with a tromb wall?
> >
> 
> It would seem to me that you need to choose between storing heat in a
> sunspace OR pumping it into the house. 

Or bringing the sunshine directly into the house through large south
windows with some form of thermal storage, such as masonry floors or
water storage tanks.  See
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm

-- 
William R. Stewart
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Thu Mar 27 21:53:32 EST 1997
Article: 1887 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!ncar!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Re: Solar pool heater
Date: 27 Mar 1997 07:14:59 -0500
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5hdoc3$4ti@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <5gbi0h$b51@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <AF521FF6-4C9A6@207.146.32.220> <Pine.SUN.3.93.970321233051.299A-100000@dwarf.nome.net> <5hcqfu$t5m@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1887 alt.energy.renewable:23538 alt.architecture.alternative:10633 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12411 sci.environment:124952

Elaine Gallegos <saturn@primenet.com> takes a flying leap over hundreds
of years of physics and writes: 
 
> You can't use solar to heat a pool. The ground draws off all the heat.

Soil a few feet underground has the average yearly air temp, eg 50-60 F, and
an R-value of about 10, like 2" of Styrofoam, for downward heat flow. The
main mechanism for upward heat loss through soil is evaporation of water
>from  lower layers and condensation in layers above, so dry perimeter ground
is good, but not easy to arrange, if water comes up from below.

The main problem with solar pool heating is very poor R-values of available
pool covers, eg blue plastic "solar pool covers" with R-values less than 1,
vs a common R20 house wall. Trying to heat a pool with such top insulation is
like trying to bail a bottomless boat. People who sell solar pool heaters
don't seem to recognize this. They just sell bailing buckets. ("Leak in the
boat, eh? Not my problem. Here, try this shiny new bucket.")

Nick



From B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz Thu Mar 27 21:53:33 EST 1997
Article: 1888 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!comp.vuw.ac.nz!HERMES!hamiltonb.grace.cri.nz!B.Hamilton
From: B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Solar storage tank design
Message-ID: <B.Hamilton.1044.045D6F58@irl.cri.nz>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:22:33 LOCAL
References: <01bc3509$3b2094a0$2b7831cf@default> <19970325193200.OAA01955@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5hachg$jbr@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3339D9CF.16A1@patriot.net>
Organization: Industrial Research Limited
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
Lines: 18
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:23545 alt.architecture.alternative:10639 alt.solar.thermal:1888 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12414 sci.environment:124992

In article <3339D9CF.16A1@patriot.net>
 Will Stewart <wstewart@patriot.net> writes:

>> And I've read that phase change waxes
>> catch fire, and often need to be stored outdoors, building-code-wise...
>I know people who use phase change waxes in storage tanks in their
>homes.  Could you cite a building code that prohibits this?

A couple of decades ago, wax filled storage heaters were 
banned from NZ houses after a series of fires. Most of the
fires were from one brand ( Skope? ). I'm not certain if they
still are banned, but they were replaced with ones filled 
with thermal bricks or oil-filled units. There has been some
very interesting developments in high specific heat bricks
in NZ that can hold a lot more heat per unit volume and
mass, but I don't think they are on the market yet.

        Bruce Hamilton



From chucklesw@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 27 21:53:34 EST 1997
Article: 1889 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!worldnet.att.net!newsadm
From: Chuck Wright <chucklesw@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: seeking solar still
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:02:19 +0000
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <333AA81B.6028@worldnet.att.net>
References: <hrick-2403970108440001@pm6-13.magicnet.net>
Reply-To: chucklesw@worldnet.att.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.106.117
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1889

Rick Harrison wrote:
> 
> Are there any kits or prefabricated solar stills on the market?
> I'm looking for something that will generate about 1 gallon per
> day of distilled water.

The El Paso Solar Energy Society has plans for one that they
think works well. You have to build it from scratch, but it
looks quite simple.

Check out

http://www.txses.org/epsea/stills.html

- Chuck Wright


From gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca Thu Mar 27 21:53:34 EST 1997
Article: 1890 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.bctel.net!not-for-mail
From: gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca (Graig Pearen)
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y,alt.home.repair,alt.solar.thermal,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Ugly Stanley Range
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 01:26:39 GMT
Organization: BCTEL Advanced Communications
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5hf5im$o5l$1@news.bctel.net>
References: <3315DB1D.689F@thewoods.com>
Reply-To: gpearen@bc.sympatico.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: pgrg01m01-77.bctel.ca
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu uk.d-i-y:746 alt.home.repair:51986 alt.solar.thermal:1890 alt.architecture.alternative:10643

"A. Forest" <into@thewoods.com> wrote:

>I have a Stanley range in my kitchen that works very well it is about 20 
>years old. Problem is it is finished in white enamel and looks more like 
>a medical incenerator in the kitchen.

>Can I paint it another colour? Prefer Black or Deep Red.

>I travel to the US quite often so any suggestions from our North 
>American D-I-Y friends regarding heat resistant paint that are availble 
>there would be welcome.

>Thanks in advance

There are paints made for wood stoves that will take the heat but most
are not high gloss so would be difficult to clean. You need a high
gloss enamel. Perhaps an automotive engine paint would do. The
biggest problem would be getting the old paint clean enough for the
new paint to stick. Scrub it well with a strong soap then have it
sand blasted or sanded the way an auto body is before painting it.

Graig



From johndrew@epix.net Sat Apr 12 19:48:26 EDT 1997
Article: 1947 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news_server.cs.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!sprint!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.communique.net!communique!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail
From: Mike Johndrew <johndrew@epix.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: collecting and storing
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:15:36 -0400
Organization: epix Internet Services
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <334C3F38.4EF6@epix.net>
Reply-To: johndrew@epix.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: tmbg-115ppp72.epix.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1947

Hi, I'm very much interested in passive design and because I live up
here in central NY (cold winters and not a lot of sunlight!) any tips in
not only collecting but storing the solar heat. Thanks.       Mike


From johndrew@epix.net Sat Apr 12 19:48:27 EDT 1997
Article: 1948 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.new-york.net!metro.atlanta.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.communique.net!communique!news3.epix.net!news1.epix.net!not-for-mail
From: Mike Johndrew <johndrew@epix.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: collecting and storing
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:15:07 -0400
Organization: epix Internet Services
Lines: 3
Message-ID: <334C3F1B.57B1@epix.net>
Reply-To: johndrew@epix.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: tmbg-115ppp72.epix.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1948

Hi, I'm very much interested in passive design and because I live up
here in central NY (cold winters and not a lot of sunlight!) any tips in
not only collecting but storing the solar. Thanks.       Mike


From mrkozy@aol.com Sat Apr 12 19:48:28 EDT 1997
Article: 1949 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: mrkozy@aol.com (MRKozy)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Solar Pool Heater Renovation
Date: 10 Apr 1997 22:43:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <19970410224100.SAA00179@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1949


I'm in the process of renovating a swimming pool solar heater system that
has been in place for about twenty years.  I need to repair/replace two
components.  An electrically operated collector by-pass valve.  It goes on
3" PVC pipe and is run by a small 12 volt solenoid.  The  solenoid appears
to change the preasure equilibrium on a rubber diaphram which in turns
open or closes the valve.  Someone told me that the valve was typical of
those used in commercial irrigation systems.

The controller is manufactured by Helitrope General.  It
activates/deactivates the solenoid based on the difference between two
temperature sensors, one attached to the piping on the collector array and
the other to the pool pump inlet piping.

Any ideas on where I can get repair parts or equivalent replacement
components.

You can e-mail me at mkozy@worldnet.att.net.

Thanks


From info@anchor-new mexico.com Sat Apr 12 19:48:29 EDT 1997
Article: 1950 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!nmia!news
From: "Willie Schmit, CRL" <"info"@anchor-new mexico.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar powered cooling - how to ?
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:09:32 -0700
Organization: Anchor Desktop Security
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <5ig80h$19l@hume.nmia.com>
References: <333F6A5A.6D11@cph.ih.dk> <5hqo74$dl9@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup105.nmia.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I; 16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1950

Gene A. Townsend wrote:
> 
> sven munk <sm@cph.ih.dk> wrote:
> 
> >Based on the chimney effect and water with a large area it should be
> >possible to get the water cooled when the sun is shining. The chimney
> >heated by the sun draw air pass the water surface and take away all
> >the "hot" watermolecules.
> 
> >Anyone with experience with this method of cooling ?
> 
> >BTW: I just remembered something about solar powered de-salination
> >(removing the salt from seewater by destillation) based on a method
> >somewhat similar. Are such units working somewhere ?
> 
> >sven munk
> >IKT
> >sm@cph.ih.dk
> 
> Using a solar chimney to create a draft for an evaporative cooler may
> work in some locations, however there is no way to condense the water
> from the vapor inexpensively that I know of.
> 
> A passive evaporative cooling tower will work more effectively for
> cooling.  These are towers about 6 ft. square by 30 feet tall  that
> have porous media at the top that is kept constantly wet and vents
> into the living space, which must have open windows or other outlet
> vents at the other end.
> 
> Ambient air entering the porous media is cooled evaporatively, gaining
> mass and causing a sinking effect, sort of a reverse chimney effect
> actually, moving the air both through the media and into the living
> space using no additional energy.
> 
> Solar chimneys have many technical problems.  Using one for cooling
> would be a poor choice because the air is mostly cooled by the
> evaporation, rather than the water.  (yes, they are both cooled)
> After cooling, the air is heated by the solar chimney, throwing away
> the cooling.  The water would need to be circulated through a heat
> exchanger, which would be an additional part that would be expensive.
> 
> Hope it helps,
> 
> Gene A. Townsend

Gene - I remember an article (Home Power?) - that used a chimney to 
create negative air pressure in a home - a second stack with a sheet 
metal funnel and wind cock kept pointing up wind - there was an 
evaporative cooling mesh in the throat of the stack and a PV fan to help 
it draw (with the help of the chimney on the opposite side of the house) 
- I even think that the duct ran underground for a while to further cool 
the air - (and presumably condense some of the vapor out).


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Sat Apr 12 19:48:30 EDT 1997
Article: 1951 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Keeping the house cooler
Date: 11 Apr 1997 11:06:49 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5ilk29$ip2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3347017d.10458121@198.235.216.4> <19970409071300.DAA21217@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5igpbh$98k@labss5e.mathcs.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:56279 alt.solar.thermal:1951 alt.energy.renewable:23782 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12567 alt.architecture.alternative:10888

How about a roof pond, say a flat EPDM rubber roof with standing seams every
16' and a 6" lip around the edge? Atlanta has a 24 hour average temperature
of 78.8 F in July, with an average daily max of 88 F and average daily min
of 69.5 (when dew begins to form, so evaporative cooling is nil.) A roof pond
covered with soap bubbles during the day, under 2 layers of poly film with
some shadecloth over that, perhaps, inflated and vented with outside air at
night, might have a thermal conductance of something like 2 Btu/hr-F-ft^2,
ignoring evaporation, so it might keep a 1-story 32'x32'house with a shaded
south wall and R20 insulation at temperature T, if the energy flowing into
the house over a day, 24h(78.8-T)1024ft^2/R20 equals the energy flowing out
of the pond, say 6h(T-69.5)1024ft^2x2, so T = 73 F. 

A sunspace containing a solar still (with a reflective cover and concentration
ratio of 2:1, heating a shallow trench of lithium chloride solution?) might
provide summer dehumidification, and additional winter solar heat storage in
the form of a few hundred pounds of concentrated LiCl solution, ready to
absorb water vapor and releasing some 1000 Btu/pound of water. (Or maybe part
of the roof pond should be LiCl?)

The average January temperature in Atlanta is 41 F, and an average of 1120
Btu of sun per day falls on a square foot of south wall, while an average of
820 Btu falls on a square foot of horizontal surface, eg a roof pond. If the
pond is covered with tiny cold soap bubbles at night (almost as good as
fiberglass insulation) it might collect about 32x32x820x0.8 = 672K Btu/day
of sun and lose about 6h(T-41)1Kft^2/R2 during the day and 18(T-41)1Kft^2/R20 
at night, making its average temperature T = 41 + 672K/3.9K = 213 F :-)
(Radiation loss would make it closer to 130 F, as would using some of this
heat to warm the house, altho that might better be done via a plastic sunspace
along the south wall, on an average day, with an average amount of sun.)

A pond like this would ensure the house roof never saw less than 32 F in
winter, since it would take about 4400 Btu to freeze a square foot of it
solid, at a rate of (32-(-10))1ft^2/R20 = 2 Btu/hr when it's -10 F outside,
ie 2,200 hours or 13 weeks with no sun at -10 F. It could also melt a lot of
snow on the roof, especially with wellwater keeping it warmer than 50 F. It
might make a good sprinkler system or gravity-feed rainwater source or large 
winter water heater, storing up to 4,000 gallons of water, and gathering 80
gallons a day where I live, with an average monthly rainfall of 4". 

Nick



From pantry@hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 23:51:51 EDT 1997
Article: 1952 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news.pacbell.net!usenet
From: pantry@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Keeping the house cooler
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:02:04 -0700
Organization: A customer of Pacific Bell Internet Services
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3350146C.1119@hotmail.com>
References: <3347017d.10458121@198.235.216.4> <19970409071300.DAA21217@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5igpbh$98k@labss5e.mathcs.emory.edu> <5ilk29$ip2@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-212-159-25.scrm01.pacbell.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1952 alt.energy.renewable:23795 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12584 alt.architecture.alternative:10904

Nick Pine wrote:
> 
> How about a roof pond, 

I was part of a group that retrofitted some surplus university buildings 
this way. I didn't like the design. It used a waterbed bag resting on a sheet 
of tin or aluminum over the roof joists, a strong frame, and hydraulically 
raised lid/reflector. The hydraulics were to be computer controlled but it 
never got that far.

My suggestion was to replace the tin or aluminum with plexiglas or 
something similar and to color the water. This would have all but 
eliminated daylighting by electricity while still collecting some heat. I also 
suggested that instead of big heavy insulated lid/reflected, that the bags be 
bunked--that is bag on top, supportive frame in middle, and bag on bottom. 
This way by pumping the water between bags you would have a great deal of 
control over the temperature.

BTW, the system was designed for summer cooling. Keep the lid shut 
during hot summer days, open at night and take advantage of night sky 
radiation. The bag absorbs heat from the building during the day.

Howard


From hwalker@crosslink.net Mon Apr 14 23:51:53 EDT 1997
Article: 1953 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.cc.ukans.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.246.124.37!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!not-for-mail
From: hwalker@crosslink.net (Howard Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: RE: Keeping the house cooler
Date: 14 Apr 1997 02:21:42 GMT
Organization: crosslink.net
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5is4bm$dsq$2@kronos.crosslink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.65.42
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (16bit)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1953

I was reading an old Ted Lucas book on solar heating & cooling.  A very 
interesting concept (circa 1977) was a length of 1/2 inch pvc running the 
length of the peak of the roof, with fine mist nozzels every 5 feet or so.  
Fed from house water pressure with a roof mounted thermal sensor and 
electrically controlled water solenoid valve.

When the roof shingle reached 90 degrees or so, the sensor would energize the 
water valve solenoid, turning on the water to the roof mister.  The misting 
system would spray a fine mist of water to cool the shingles....etc, etc.

I wonder how well this concept works?  Anyone out there ever try it?



From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Mon Apr 14 23:51:53 EDT 1997
Article: 1954 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!gatech!csulb.edu!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ais.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!132.205.106.4!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,sci.environment,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Keeping the house cooler
Date: 14 Apr 1997 02:24:54 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5isijm$5@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <3347017d.10458121@198.235.216.4> <5igpbh$98k@labss5e.mathcs.emory.edu> <5ilk29$ip2@ufo.ee.vill.edu> <3350146C.1119@hotmail.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1954 alt.energy.renewable:23814 sci.environment:126618 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:12596 alt.architecture.alternative:10922

<pantry@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> How about a roof pond, 

>I was part of a group that retrofitted some surplus university buildings 
>this way. I didn't like the design. It used a waterbed bag resting on a sheet 
>of tin or aluminum over the roof joists, a strong frame, and hydraulically 
>raised lid/reflector.
 
I wonder where this project was, and where the insulation was.

Perhaps this system was only for cooling.

>My suggestion was to replace the tin or aluminum with plexiglas or something
>similar and to color the water. This would have all but eliminated
>daylighting by electricity while still collecting some heat.

There could be lots of light even while absorbing most of the sun, since
direct sun is about 10K footcandles, 200 times stronger than a well-lit
(overlit?) 50 FC office. Would colored light drive most people bananas?

>I also suggested that instead of big heavy insulated lid/reflected, that
>the bags be bunked--that is bag on top, supportive frame in middle, and bag
>on bottom. This way by pumping the water between bags you would have a great
>deal of control over the temperature.

I wonder about making the ceiling some sort of dark mesh, eg black aluminum
window screen or 80% black greenhouse shadecloth, under some large (8x8'?)
greenhouse polyethylene film pillows filled with tiny cold static soap bubbles
on a winter night (these bubbles can last for hours, and are almost as good as
fiberglass insulation) and larger, moving bubbles on a day with some sun.

Filling horizontal pillows with bubbles might be easier than trying to make
bubbles uniformly fill poly pillows in curved plastic film greenhouse walls,
without leaks, which was tried with some success in Arizona and New Hampshire
in the 70s. These days, we can probably make better bubble sensors to keep the
pillows filled, and somehow recycle the air that comes out at the top, to
prevent the bubble solution from becoming dusty.

Ceiling pillows 2' thick in the middle might contain 64 ft^3 of tiny bubbles
weighing about 20 pounds, and act as solar heat collectors during the day,
with a large thermal storage tank on/in the ground. The pillows might be under
a steep, fixed, monopitch roof sloping up to a translucent south wall, with
white paint or foil under the roof, and day/night modes reversed in summer.

Nick



From vc@blp.sover.net Mon Apr 14 23:51:54 EDT 1997
Article: 1955 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!news-out.communique.net!communique!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!sprint!news-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!not-for-mail
From: "vc@blp.sover.net" <vc@blp.sover.net>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: solar powered cooling - how to ?
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:29:40 -0500
Organization: vc@blp.sover.net
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <33516C4D.4BAB@blp.sover.net>
References: <333F6A5A.6D11@cph.ih.dk> <5hqo74$dl9@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5ig80h$19l@hume.nmia.com>
Reply-To: vc@blp.sover.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm0a8.mont.sover.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K)
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1955

> Gene - I remember an article (Home Power?) - that used a chimney to
> create negative air pressure in a home - a second stack with a sheet
> metal funnel and wind cock kept pointing up wind - there was an
> evaporative cooling mesh in the throat of the stack and a PV fan to help
> it draw (with the help of the chimney on the opposite side of the house)
> - I even think that the duct ran underground for a while to further cool
> the air - (and presumably condense some of the vapor out).

We've done something like this for years. We have a large attached
greenhouse covering the south side of our home. In the winter we draw
the heat into the house and it provides about half of our heat. But,
during the summer we reverse things and vent out the top (~20' up) of
the greenhouse. Since the greenhouse is sealed other than the top vents
this then draws air into the greenhouse through the 1st story windows in
the house that open into the greenhouse. The house is kept closed except
for drawing air up through the basement which is cool air. The net
result is cooling of the entire house and greenhouse to a very
comfortable level such that it is much cooler indoors than outdoors. At
night we open the house (bedroom) windows to let the air come in there
as well and since the thermal mass in the greenhouse is still warm it
continues drawing for a while.

Another way of cooling I've always wanted to try is with our spring. Our
water supply is a spring about 150' vertical above the house. Our
bathroom tends to be extra cool in the summer because of the mass of the
water in the water tank and toilet tank. The water coming in is about 45
F. The sprin produces much more water than we use. Someday I would like
to try running it through coils that would condense water out of the air
and cool the air in the house. From there I would run the water perhaps
out to the barn or something. But, the current system works well enough
that this would just be for the fun of experimenting... 8-)


From cary@net-connect.net Mon Apr 14 23:51:55 EDT 1997
Article: 1956 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.cybernet.dk!news.onramp.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.net-connect.net!not-for-mail
From: cary@net-connect.net (Cary )
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: DON'T SHOP AT CIRCUIT CITY
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:19:40 GMT
Organization: Net Connect, Ltd.
Lines: 60
Message-ID: <5is61s$2s1$28@news.net-connect.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: as01.net-connect.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1956


   WHY YOU SHOULD NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM CIRCUIT CITY


I was looking for a new computer earlier this year.  Since I was a
loyal customer
of Circuit City, I bought a name brand computer from them at their
Lafayette, Louisiana location. 
 It was a $2,600.00 system with a 166mhz Pentium, internal Zip drive,
battery back-up power supply, etc.

Well, unfortunately, there was a problem.  The sound card was
defective.  I tried 
to get the problem worked out with the manufacturer, but the part was
on back-
order.  Eventually, I brought the system back to Circuit City and
exchanged it for
an identical system.  

The new system had a problem with the modem.  I was disgusted.  After
7 days,
I returned this system.  Circuit City refused to accept the return.
"Why?" you
ask?  Because they say I violated their product return policy.
Circuit City says
that you must return any computer within 14 days if you expect a
refund.  I 
pointed out that I only had this system for 7 days.  "Ahhh, but we
have to go 
by the date you purchased the original(defective) system, not the date
you
took possession of the second system."  

I appealled to the manager of the store, Kevin Harrington.  But he
said the same
thing.  He added, "We're just gonna put this system on the shelf for
you with your
name on it.  You can come get it whenever you want!"  I then called
their Consumer
Affairs Department at 1-800-251-2665.  I got the same run around from
them.  But I also
got referred to Dave Walker, a supervisor, at 1-800-399-2565 ext 6035.
He was also no
help.  It was the same run around.

Dave did give me the  of the District Manager, Mr. Gary Bivens.  It is
2421 Veterans 
Memorial Blvd., Kenner, LA  70062.  Mr Bivens echoed the same
responses that I
have heard from the beginning.

So, you can see, Circuit City does not stand behind their products.
Their trying to 
steal $2,600.00 from me(they still have the computer, plus it is no
longer state-of-the-
art).  Please don't trust them.  I am really sorry that I did.  


Cary



From datamax@j51.com Mon Apr 14 23:51:56 EDT 1997
Article: 1957 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ott.istar!news.istar.net!news.synapse.net!news.abs.net!news.j51.com!not-for-mail
From: S.P., Woodring<datamax@j51.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Save money!!!
Date: 14 Apr 1997 22:47:12 GMT
Organization: DATAMAX
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <5iuc5g$okg$3483@news.j51.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pma16.ucs.net
Xref: newz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:1957


Do you have a car?

Do you like music on the go?

Have you given any thought about upgrading the car stereo system?

If you have answered yes to any of these questions,

Go to http://www.j51.com/datamax/prod01.htm

Guaranteed, I can save you a great deal of money.

Sincerely,

SP, Woodring

______________________________________________________
I know everyone is looking for a way to save money. 
Should this not be of interest to you, Please forward it to
a friend who needs it.

This is a promotion for "What you should know before you
install your car stereo system"  A booklet written by SP, Woodring.
______________________________________________________

----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is being brought to you by Dynamic Mail - the easier and faster 
way to explode your business on the internet. For more information please 
visit our web site at : http://members.tripod.com/~apexpi/
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From edsanders@edsanders.com Wed Sep  3 12:46:00 EDT 1997
Article: 2559 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsfeed.kornet.nm.kr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ncia.net!not-for-mail
From: <edsanders@edsanders.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: New Solar Hot Water Web section:
Date: 31 Aug 1997 11:46:33 GMT
Organization: North Country Internet Access
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <01bcb62c$31c45d20$63b18dcf@edsanders>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ncia99l.ncia.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2559

You might like to check out the new section on my web site on solar hot
water. Has some history on it from 1915 and on a solar collector I built
for hot water.

http://www.edsanders.com/solar/hotwater.htm

Ed Sanders

http://www.edsanders.com


From grants@ForYou.com Wed Sep  3 12:46:01 EDT 1997
Article: 2560 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!unc-cs!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!infeed1.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.103.79.92!NEWS!not-for-mail
From: grants@ForYou.com
Subject: $$$ FREE CASH GRANTS  $$$$$$$$$
Message-ID: <81f7cd$e322e.41@NEWS>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:21:33
Lines: 34
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2560

CASH GRANTS   CASH GRANTS   CASH GRANTS

Foundations all over the United States GIVE CASH GRANTS.

ANYONE can apply for a Grant from 18 years and up...

This money HAS to be given away, WHY not to YOU?

Grants from $500.00 to $50,000.00 possible, in some instances.

Grants don't have to be paid back.

Grants can be ideal for people who are or were bankrupt 
or just have bad credit.

Get the money you need to start that business, you have always wanted.

To get your  list of  FOUNDATIONS that give grants, AND instructions 
on how to apply.

Send a check or money order for ONLY $7.00 to:

TO RECEIVE BY US MAIL ENCLOSE A STAMPED, SELF ADDRESSED, #10 ENVELOPE.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
B.C.S.
39 GURLEY ROAD  #201
EDISON, NJ  08817
Att: GRANT INFO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Include your E-MAIL ADDRESS for faster service.







From aon.912020106@aon.at Wed Sep  3 12:46:02 EDT 1997
Article: 2562 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.apfel.de!newscore.univie.ac.at!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!garion.telecom.at!news-admin@telecom.at
From: aon.912020106@aon.at (MaltschiTant)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: a motor called Elsbeth ?
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 20:11:41 GMT
Organization: TELECOM Network Provider, Austria
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <340c4ff1.2637168@news.aon.at>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.3.65.207
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2562 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:53735


Looking for someone who has got experience with an Elsbeth Motor!
It is supposed to run on >methyl ester made from used cooking oil<
or from >... rape-seed<.
This motor does not need a cooler, neither water nor air.
It is not a drive assembly, but a stationary thermo power generator.

The info is needed for experiments.
Thanx
die liebe MaltschiTant


From nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu Wed Sep 17 10:12:21 EDT 1997
Article: 2579 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.misty.com!news.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.repair.house,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Energy conservation
Date: 15 Sep 1997 06:41:02 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <5vj3bu$al0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
References: <341a8c91.5115667@news> <5veo14$8h9@nntp02.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ufo.ee.vill.edu
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:75223 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:14616 alt.solar.thermal:2579 alt.energy.renewable:26871 alt.architecture.alternative:12551


Elaine Gallegos  <saturn@primenet.com> wrote:
 
> Think trees...

Or maybe grapes, runner beans, trumpet vines, clematis,
or greenhouse shadecloth...

> Your solar heat collector should be on the south side of the building. An
>entire wall if possible.

Sounds nice.

>Like a big greenhouse on the south/west side.

Mine is 32' long x 16' tall x 12' deep, made from standard commercial plastic
film greenhouse parts, mainly 9 $35 curved galvanized pipes each 24' long, 4'
apart, running from the ground to the eave. They slip/bolt over some 5' pipes
pounded into the ground, and there's a pressure treated board bolted on edge
around the perimeter. After this winter, it will be covered with a single
800 ft^2 $40 piece of 4-year cloudy private polyethylene greenhouse film, to
collect solar heat equivalent to about 500 gallons of oil, and add about
400 ft^2 of floorspace to my house. The building inspector said "It's nice
you called it an air heater instead of a 400 ft^2 2-story addition." I think
I'll cover the ground with more poly film and Astroturf, or a collection of
worn-out carpets, and put a picnic table, umbrella and chairs out there. 

>Line the solar collector with thick concrete tiles on the floor, and
>stone masondry along the wall. The stones will collect heat and radiate
>this heat all night long in winter.

This would work as a more efficient house heater if most of the thermal mass
were in the house, vs in the greenhouse, radiating heat all night... Let warm
air circulate through the house during the day, then turn off the window fan
(in series with a $6 greenhouse cooling thermostat and a $16 house heating
thermostat) or close the windows and doors between house and greenhouse at
night, and let the greenhouse/collector get cold quickly, so it loses very
little heat to the outdoors through the solar glazing at night. 

If the greenhouse contains plants, the fan might also have a parallel 35 F
greenhouse heating thermostat. Greenhouses containing freeze-tolerant plants
like cactus, or no plants at all, make more efficient house heaters, since
they can be colder at night and dryer during the day, with less condensation. 

> The thickly planted trees will cool your house in summer. Plan it so that
>the trees prevent any direct sunlight from hitting your roof, ESPECIALLY
>your sun collector in summer. That would be bad. 

I have found it difficult to shade my house roof from high summer sun with big
trees, without having 1' diameter branches fall on the (steep, transparent)
south roof. Exterior shadecloth, venting and attic floor insulation help.

> If necessary, cover the sun collector in summer with silver tarp until
>your trees are tall enough to block all sunlight.

I hung a $75 16x32' piece of 80% black greenhouse shadecloth over my south
wall this summer. It looks solid black from the outside, but like a window
screen from the inside, through the house windows. Shadecloth comes from
greenhouse suppliers like Stuppy (800) 733-5025, made to order, with hems
and grommets around the edges. Delivery time is about 2 weeks. It comes in
various colors.

I hung a $140 20x32' piece of 57% red shadecloth a few inches away from the
flat south wall of the local newspaper's red barn/office building this summer,
to help them save money on air conditioning by keeping about 60K Btu/day of
sun (eg 2 window ACs running 6 hours per day) from shining into 120 ft^2 of
south windows. We hope to cover it with $32 worth of poly film and a few nylon
ropes to keep it from flapping much in the wind, and use it as a 640 ft^2
solar air heater this winter. Building air would exit a lower window, rise up
between the shadecloth and poly film, travel sideways from south to north
through the warm shadecloth, and re-enter the building through 1 or 2 upper
windows with 1 or 2 $12 window fans. This might collect 580K Btu of heat on
an average December day, and lose about 6h(100F-30F)640ft^2/R1 = 270K, a net
gain of about 310K Btu/day, slightly more than the heat in 2 gallons of oil.  

The newspaper building seems so old and large that this air heater will
probably only let the oil burner run less often. It's unlikely that storing
this comparatively small amount of heat would be economical. 

Nick



From jmucci@umich.nowhere.edu Wed Sep 17 10:12:22 EDT 1997
Article: 2580 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu!pm114-23.dialip.mich.net!user
From: jmucci@umich.nowhere.edu (John D. Muccigrosso)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.repair.house,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.renewable,alt.architecture.alternative
Subject: Re: Energy conservation
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:18:53 -0400
Organization: Univeristy of Michigan
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <jmucci-1609970118540001@pm114-23.dialip.mich.net>
References: <341a8c91.5115667@news> <5veo14$8h9@nntp02.primenet.com> <5vj3bu$al0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm114-23.dialip.mich.net
X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.frugal-living:75416 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:14621 alt.solar.thermal:2580 alt.energy.renewable:26891 alt.architecture.alternative:12561


In article <5vj3bu$al0@ufo.ee.vill.edu>, nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:

> I hung a $75 16x32' piece of 80% black greenhouse shadecloth over my south
> wall this summer. It looks solid black from the outside, but like a window
> screen from the inside, through the house windows. Shadecloth comes from
> greenhouse suppliers like Stuppy (800) 733-5025, made to order, with hems
> and grommets around the edges. Delivery time is about 2 weeks. It comes in
> various colors.

How did you attach the cloth to the house?

> I hung a $140 20x32' piece of 57% red shadecloth a few inches away from the
> flat south wall of the local newspaper's red barn/office building this summer,
> to help them save money on air conditioning by keeping about 60K Btu/day of
> sun (eg 2 window ACs running 6 hours per day) from shining into 120 ft^2 of
> south windows.

How did this go?

-- 
John D. Muccigrosso                         Department of Classical Studies
jmucci@umich.nowhere.edu  <-- remove the .nowhere from my address         University of Michigan


From sawie@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 17 10:12:23 EDT 1997
Article: 2581 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!unc-cs!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!cs.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!ai-lab!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tfc-bham.demon.co.uk!mark
From: Sun At Work In Europe <sawie@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable,alt.solar.thermal,uk.environment
Subject: Sun At Work In Europe online
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:20:03 +0100
Organization: The Franklin Company
Sender: Mark E Thornton <mark@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk>
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <dIcqZGAjOqH0Ewzd@tfc-bham.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tfc-bham.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: tfc-bham.demon.co.uk [158.152.32.25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a <pAgFpWZdy+qFUPug+H3vOdd6os>
Lines: 12
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.energy.renewable:26902 alt.solar.thermal:2581 uk.environment:2456

The latest issue of Sun At Work In Europe, the European sustainable
energy magazine, is now on-line trailing features on solar water
heating, sustainable energy in Slovenia, and a special pullout on SunDay
'97, European Renewable Energy Day.

    http://www.demon.co.uk/tfc/sawie.html

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
         S u n   A t   W o r k   I n   E u r o p e
            European Sustainable Energy Magazine




From jbright469@aol.com Wed Sep 17 10:12:24 EDT 1997
Article: 2582 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: jbright469@aol.com (JBright469)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar heat enough to drive my pool warmer??
Date: 17 Sep 1997 04:18:00 GMT
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <19970917041801.AAA07079@ladder02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder02.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
References: <341eee63.1989475@news.uq.edu.au>
SnewsLanguage: English
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2582

>If I lie my black coiled piping beside the pool in the sun with each
>end in the water will the heat create any convection to flow the
>water??

not if it's placed at an equal height or higher than the pool
heat rises so you cant't use thermo-siphoning from above

if you placed the coil below the pool? maybe 
but you might get hot spots stopping your flow then too with a coil
(top of each loop may get too hot to siphon properly)

 it might be easier to use a dark finish or liner in the pool
 and heat the water in place
 of course then you don't have a lot of control to prevent overheating

maybe use a dark colored pool blanket on top of the water?

>What if I put one end in deep and the other shallow-
>  will the pressure difference be enough to make it go??

I may be mistaken but I don't believe your pressure or temperture
differecials would be high enough to drive a flow



From redrok@pclink.com Wed Oct  8 01:32:41 EDT 1997
Article: 2621 of alt.solar.thermal
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!recycled.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.192.241.248!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.pclink.com!not-for-mail
From: "Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on economics of Solar Water Still
Message-ID: <3438E887.5FDC@pclink.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 06:32:55 -0700
References: <343500A5.4179@pclink.com> <34350a72.2895261@news.ucla.edu>
Organization: Red Rock Energy
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: Michael Stein <mas@ucla.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 53
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2621

Hi Michael;

I just checked. When the water is labeled as "distilled" it has
to be distilled. Of course this could be from a vacuum process
at a lower temperature. Essentially the process of distillation
requires some form of gasification and condensation to be
sold as distilled.

Some De-ionized water used osmosis techniques while others use
chemical methods.

Finally soft water simply exchange hard ions such as calcium
with soft ions such as magnesium.

When doing a water resistivity test for chemical purity generally
distilled water is the best with de-ionized second and of course
followed by soft water.

The best stills have de-gasification at high temperature before
boiling.  

Michael Stein wrote:
> 
> >What's wrong with this picture. On the one hand I get $55000
> >and on the other hand I get $156.
> 
> I thought that a lot (all?) of the "distilled water" was really
> either de-ionized (via ion-exchange) or reverse osmosis.
> No need to deal with "heat" at all....

-- 
   CUL8ER   \    \ \      \      \ \\   \      \ Receiver
  Powered by \    \ \      \      \ \\   \      \     [*]
 Thermonuclear\    \ \ Solar\Energy\From the Sun \ //////
Energy(the Sun)\    \ \      \      \ \\   \ / / /\/ / //
                \    \ \      \      \ /\ / \/  /  /  / |
   WA0VBE        \    \ \      \ /   /\ \/   /   /  \/ /|
  Ziggy           \    \ \ /    /    / \ \/   \/    /\  |
                   \ /  \ \/     /     /\ \\ / \   /  / |
"Red Rock Energy"  ===  ===\ /    \ /    \ ===  \ /   ===
Duane C. Johnson Designer  ===    ===     \ \   ===  /  |
1825 Florence St.   Mirrors,Heliostats,Controls & Mounts|
White Bear Lake, Minnesota                  \ \     /   |
USA         55110-3364                       \ \        |
(612)635-5O65    work                         \ \  /    |
(612)426-4766   home                  copyright\ \      |
(612)583-2O62  Red Rock Energy Site   (C) 971005\ /     |
redrok@pclink.com    (my primary email: address)===\    |
redrok2@juno.com                 (juno address)     \   |
duane.johnson@unisys.com      (Unisys address)       \  |
johnsodc@freenet.msp.mn.us  (freeNET address)         \ |
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/  (Website)\|
These are my opinions,  not that of Unisys.           ===



From epitome@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:12 EDT 1997
Article: 2634 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!news.mira.net.au!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: epitome@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: test ns
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:51:07 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <3443F75B.E0FE8411@ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pax-ca26-04.ix.netcom.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Oct 14  5:50:31 PM CDT 1997
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2634

test only



From eurotecam@tsai.es Wed Oct 22 12:24:12 EDT 1997
Article: 2635 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!EU.net!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!cosy.sbg.ac.at!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!news.tsai.es!news.tsai.es!newsadmin@tsai.es
From: "RLM" <eurotecam@tsai.es>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: high out put
Date: 20 Oct 1997 11:45:36 GMT
Organization: EDTASL
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <01bcdd87$e47927c0$3038e0c2@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 56048.rad.tsai.es
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2635

If you need solar collectors with very high output, e.g. high temp and hot
water production in cloudy regions, please contact Europea de Técnicas
Ambientales in Spain. e-mail: eurotecam@tsai.es



From hnrconsult@aol.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:13 EDT 1997
Article: 2636 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!news.pn.com!nntp.pn.com!news1.best.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: hnrconsult@aol.com (HnRConsult)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Need Direction for Collector Build
Date: 20 Oct 1997 22:40:46 GMT
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <19971020224000.SAA17598@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2636

I would like to build a flat panel solar collector to heat up a liquid to the
 hottest temp possible and would like to know the best place to go for data on
 what types of materials and construction to use for optimizing the efficiency
 of the collector box. 
 
Please respond to HNRCONSULT@AOL.COM


From laseraxe@erols.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:14 EDT 1997
Article: 2637 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!winter.news.erols.com!not-for-mail
From: David Wells <laseraxe@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Vapor Jet Pumps as Bottoming Cycle Refrigeration Cycle
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:23:25 -0700
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <344C11C2.4920@erols.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rkv-as4s51.erols.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 877389709 14592 207.172.243.114 (20 Oct 1997 23:21:49 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@erols.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-DH397  (Win16; I)
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2637 alt.solar.photovoltaic:4189 alt.energy.homepower:2694 alt.energy.renewable:28326

Hey, all you thermodynamophiles:

Has anyone got any information as to references that I can refer to to
compute the efficiency of a cooling cycle using a Venturi vapor-jet
ejector as a pump?

The idea is this: you boil a material such as Freon 134a or butane at
about 60 C, send the high pressure gas to a "vapor ejector", which is a
handy little pump that I can buy in McMaster-Carr for a hundred bucks or
so,  said vapor ejector uses steam or other vapors to create a vacuume
with a converging/divergind sonic or supersonic nozzel, and then I use
the vacuum to evaporate the refrigerant gas.

The problem: modeling the thing.  The best I can do now is to use
Perry's Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology (see "ejectors"), which has
some performance curves to get pressure ratios given input compression
ratio of the motive gas.

Anybody out there ever made a "vapor jet refrigerator" ? How well did it
work?  How do you select the working fluid?

Geeze, after the virtually zero response to my "where's the beef" memo,
I'll bet this one gets a virtual zero.  

Not that I'm a pessimist....


-Dave


From rossen@dgcdec1.epfl.ch Wed Oct 22 12:24:15 EDT 1997
Article: 2638 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!unc-cs!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsgate.unisource.nl!news.amsterdam.unisource.nl!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!ubnnews.unisource.ch!news-sol.swissonline.ch!news
From: Erik Rossen <rossen@dgcdec1.epfl.ch>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: New (?) solar thermal / hydro-electric hybrid
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:54:04 +0200
Organization: Swissonline AG, Switzerland
Message-ID: <344BEF1C.4EBBE262@dgcdec1.epfl.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-14-188.swissonline.ch
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486)
Lines: 36
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2638

As some of you may know, I've been looking around for a cheap motor
system to
use in high-concentration solar thermal applications.  I haven't had too
much
luck thus far, but I haven't stopped looking.
Anyway, I want to know if anyone has ever heard of the following system
configuration:
1.  A high temperature solar concentrator (dish, heliostats, whatever),
2.  Producing steam at about 6 bars pressure,
3.  Connected by pipe to a filled high pressure water tank, say 2 cubic
meters
in volume,
4.  With a pipe out of the bottom of the tank that feeds a Harris
micro-hydro
electric turbine,
5.  The splash is fed back into a twin high pressure water tank,
6.  When the water in the first tank is exhausted, steam is fed to the
twin and
the water in the twin is used to propel the turbine,
ad infinitum.

Just a few bits of info:  a "high output" 4 nozzle Harris turbine will
do 1500
watts under 200 feet of head with 100 gallons per minute of flow.  The
turbine
costs $995 and a high output DC alternator to go with it costs $200.
This is according to the Solar Living Source Book, 9th ed. by John
Schaeffer
et al.  According to the book, such a system is 40% efficient in
converting
gravitational power (i.e. head x flow) into electrical power.

I guess this is a bit like a water ram, but without the tank on a tower.
Anybody?

Erik.


From conpute@idirect.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:16 EDT 1997
Article: 2639 of alt.solar.thermal
From: conpute@idirect.com (CONPUTE)
Subject: Re: Vapor Jet Pumps as Bottoming Cycle Refrigeration Cycle
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable
Followup-To: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable
References: <344C11C2.4920@erols.com>
Organization: ComputerLink Internet Direct.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
NNTP-Posting-Host: hometown.idirect.com
Message-ID: <344c1778.0@oasis.idirect.com>
Date: 21 Oct 97 02:46:16 GMT
Lines: 41
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!209.89.75.18!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!conpute
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2639 alt.solar.photovoltaic:4192 alt.energy.homepower:2697 alt.energy.renewable:28332

David Wells (laseraxe@erols.com) wrote:
: Hey, all you thermodynamophiles:

: Has anyone got any information as to references that I can refer to to
: compute the efficiency of a cooling cycle using a Venturi vapor-jet
: ejector as a pump?

: The idea is this: you boil a material such as Freon 134a or butane at
: about 60 C, send the high pressure gas to a "vapor ejector", which is a
: handy little pump that I can buy in McMaster-Carr for a hundred bucks or
: so,  said vapor ejector uses steam or other vapors to create a vacuume
: with a converging/divergind sonic or supersonic nozzel, and then I use
: the vacuum to evaporate the refrigerant gas.

: The problem: modeling the thing.  The best I can do now is to use
: Perry's Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology (see "ejectors"), which has
: some performance curves to get pressure ratios given input compression
: ratio of the motive gas.

: Anybody out there ever made a "vapor jet refrigerator" ? How well did it
: work?  How do you select the working fluid?

: Geeze, after the virtually zero response to my "where's the beef" memo,
: I'll bet this one gets a virtual zero.  

: Not that I'm a pessimist....


: -Dave


Do you have WWW access?

I have been studying Jet Pump design for a rocket engine.  I do have a few
useful WWW pages if you are interested.

                       Earl Colby Pottinger

 ----------------------------------------------------
 : Come play Realms of Despair! http://www.game.org :
 ----------------------------------------------------


From laseraxe@erols.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:17 EDT 1997
Article: 2640 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!unc-cs!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!winter.news.erols.com!not-for-mail
From: David Wells <laseraxe@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic
Subject: Re: New (?) solar thermal / hydro-electric hybrid
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:38:24 -0700
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <344CB050.2BD2@erols.com>
References: <344BEF1C.4EBBE262@dgcdec1.epfl.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rkv-as1s21.erols.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 877430211 15869 207.172.239.21 (21 Oct 1997 10:36:51 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@erols.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-DH397  (Win16; I)
To: Erik Rossen <rossen@dgcdec1.epfl.ch>
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2640 alt.solar.photovoltaic:4194

Erik Rossen wrote:
> 
> As some of you may know, I've been looking around for a cheap motor
> system to
> use in high-concentration solar thermal applications.  I haven't had too
> much
> luck thus far, but I haven't stopped looking.
> Anyway, I want to know if anyone has ever heard of the following system
> configuration:
> 1.  A high temperature solar concentrator (dish, heliostats, whatever),
> 2.  Producing steam at about 6 bars pressure,
> 3.  Connected by pipe to a filled high pressure water tank, say 2 cubic
> meters
> in volume,
> 4.  With a pipe out of the bottom of the tank that feeds a Harris
> micro-hydro
> electric turbine,
> 5.  The splash is fed back into a twin high pressure water tank,
> 6.  When the water in the first tank is exhausted, steam is fed to the
> twin and
> the water in the twin is used to propel the turbine,
> ad infinitum.
> 
> Just a few bits of info:  a "high output" 4 nozzle Harris turbine will
> do 1500
> watts under 200 feet of head with 100 gallons per minute of flow.  The
> turbine
> costs $995 and a high output DC alternator to go with it costs $200.
> This is according to the Solar Living Source Book, 9th ed. by John
> Schaeffer
> et al.  According to the book, such a system is 40% efficient in
> converting
> gravitational power (i.e. head x flow) into electrical power.
> 
> I guess this is a bit like a water ram, but without the tank on a tower.
> Anybody?
> 
> Erik.


Erik-


An interesting idea.  Others may laugh, but I think these sorts of low
cost designs might actually win out over the higher technology ones.

A moment of thought here about the analysis.

When you go take a thermodynamics class, the usual way of dealing with
Rankine cycles in text books is to compute the output work from the
changes in enthalpy of the gas going in versus going out.  This is
correct, of course, but as someone else pointed out here on the
newsgroup, turbines don't usually recover the pv work that occurs during
the boiling of the gas.  They take gas at pressure and volume 1), expand
it through a nozzel to produce a gas with momentum, reduce the momentum
with a turbine blade, which then produces work.


Piston engines and your engine concept do, instead, try to recover the
work done in the boiling process.  It just so happens that the work
produced when a liquid boils is exactly equal to the work that the gas
does on the container volume.  So, your proces starts out delivering to
the system an amount of work equal to the enthalpy change of water
boiling.

The trick to computing things in your design is, I think, in computing
the work INPUT which is required.

I assume that the best usage of the compressed steam in the chamber
after it has expanded would be NOT to feed into a turbine (which would
not produce that much work/lb of steam anyway), but instead, its best
use would be as a means of pre-heating the incoming water going to the
boiling process.  The preheater could be a simple counter-flow shell and
tube heat exchanger.

One final note:

You list the efficiency of the hydraulic turbine/generator as being
around 40%.  This is the MECHANICAL EFFICIENCY, not the THERMODYNAMIC
EFFICIENCY of the combination.  I'm sure you probably all ready know
this.

I recently looked into the mechanical efficiency of gear pumps. 
According to the manufacturer I talked to, the mechancial efficiency of
a typical hydraulic gear motor or pump is around 70%.

Motor efficiency is typically between 60% and 95% for motors in the
sub-horsepower range to a few horsepower.  Three phase motors are
usually about 10% higher in efficiency than single phase motors.

So, all in all, the turbine/motor operating at 40% seems to be a bit low
to me.  The advantage is, of course, that the turbine can take the
water.  But can it take the hot water?

Just some thoughts...


By the way:

I think the U.S. Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) should get off of the
goddamn planet MARS and come back here to good ole EARTH and help save
us from all this techno spam!!

JPL.  Just think about it.  Jet Propulsion.  Not rocket propulsion.  Jet
pumps.  Solar energy.  Makes sense.

-Dave


From wings@primenet.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:18 EDT 1997
Article: 2641 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail
From: Gene Alan Townsend <wings@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: New (?) solar thermal / hydro-electric hybrid
Date: 21 Oct 1997 04:13:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <344C8DA4.3227@primenet.com>
References: <344BEF1C.4EBBE262@dgcdec1.epfl.ch>
Reply-To: wings@primenet.com
X-Posted-By: @206.165.43.102 (wings)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2641

Erik Rossen wrote:
> 
> As some of you may know, I've been looking around for a cheap motor
> system to
> use in high-concentration solar thermal applications.  I haven't had too
> much
> luck thus far, but I haven't stopped looking.
> Anyway, I want to know if anyone has ever heard of the following system
> configuration:
> 1.  A high temperature solar concentrator (dish, heliostats, whatever),
> 2.  Producing steam at about 6 bars pressure,
> 3.  Connected by pipe to a filled high pressure water tank, say 2 cubic
> meters
> in volume,
> 4.  With a pipe out of the bottom of the tank that feeds a Harris
> micro-hydro
> electric turbine,
> 5.  The splash is fed back into a twin high pressure water tank,
> 6.  When the water in the first tank is exhausted, steam is fed to the
> twin and
> the water in the twin is used to propel the turbine,
> ad infinitum.
> 
> Just a few bits of info:  a "high output" 4 nozzle Harris turbine will
> do 1500
> watts under 200 feet of head with 100 gallons per minute of flow.  The
> turbine
> costs $995 and a high output DC alternator to go with it costs $200.
> This is according to the Solar Living Source Book, 9th ed. by John
> Schaeffer
> et al.  According to the book, such a system is 40% efficient in
> converting
> gravitational power (i.e. head x flow) into electrical power.
> 
> I guess this is a bit like a water ram, but without the tank on a tower.
> Anybody?


Eric:

Yes, this will work, but will yield a very low efficiency system.

The main problem is how do you react high temperature steam with low
temperature water without most of the steam condensing?  Answer; a thick
insulating piston.  It all gets very complicated.

No matter what you do, a large fraction of the steam will condense out
in the large water pumping cylinder, reducing efficiency greatly.  This
process is called "initial condensation" in steam engines.

I would look for a water turbine with MUCH better performance (like >80%
>from  small Francis turbines, 70% from converted outboard motor lower
ends).  

Most of the early steam engines were used for water pumping.

Small steam engines tend to have around 5% thermodynamic efficiency.  5%
of 40% is only 2% net efficiency.

I would suggesting sticking with a standard small piston steam engine,
and eliminating the expensive hydraulic transmission.

Regards,

Gene A. Townsend


From laseraxe@erols.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:19 EDT 1997
Article: 2642 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eng.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!winter.news.erols.com!not-for-mail
From: David Wells <laseraxe@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Vapor Jet Pumps as Bottoming Cycle Refrigeration Cycle
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:52:30 -0700
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <344D160E.412E@erols.com>
References: <344C11C2.4920@erols.com> <jforbes.6564.00AF35FC@primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rkv-as4s48.erols.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: winter.news.erols.com 877456252 21071 207.172.243.111 (21 Oct 1997 17:50:52 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@erols.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01GoldC-DH397  (Win16; I)
To: "J. Forbes" <jforbes@primenet.com>
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2642 alt.solar.photovoltaic:4200 alt.energy.homepower:2701 alt.energy.renewable:28364

J. Forbes wrote:
> 
> In article <344C11C2.4920@erols.com> David Wells <laseraxe@erols.com> writes:
> 
> >Has anyone got any information as to references that I can refer to to
> >compute the efficiency of a cooling cycle using a Venturi vapor-jet
> >ejector as a pump?
> 
> >The idea is this: you boil a material such as Freon 134a or butane at
> >about 60 C, send the high pressure gas to a "vapor ejector", which is a
> >handy little pump that I can buy in McMaster-Carr for a hundred bucks or
> >so,  said vapor ejector uses steam or other vapors to create a vacuume
> >with a converging/divergind sonic or supersonic nozzel, and then I use
> >the vacuum to evaporate the refrigerant gas.
> 
> If that vapor jet pump is the kind I'm thinking of, it has two inlets, and one
> outlet....not too useful for your intended application, as it would mix the
> refrigerant with the steam.
> 
> Jim


Jim-
I think you missed my point...

The vapor jet uses a single fluid, on both the inlet, the pump, and the
mix outlet.

What I am suggesting is that the heat from the photovoltaic array, be it
concentrating or non-concentrating, is collected and used to BOIL the
SINGLE REFRIGERANT.  This hot, high pressure (not that high pressure)
gas is directed into the vapor jet inlet. It is the PUMP fluid.

Next, suppose there is a LOWER PRESSURE EVAPORATOR, which is boiling at
a lower temperature, say around 45 or 50 deg F.  The boiled vapor is
then PUMPED OUT by the momentum of the jet. 

The outlet fitting would have the mixed streams, and would be at some
intermediate temperature and pressure.

Got it?

The vapor jet refrigeration cycle is not very efficient, and used only
if there is an abundance of some sort of waste heat, which I think we
have here, especially if the pv array type is the concentrating type,
such as a parabolic linear trough.

-Dave


From jforbes@primenet.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:19 EDT 1997
Article: 2643 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!ip-47-003.fhu.primenet.com!jforbes
From: jforbes@primenet.com (J. Forbes)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal,alt.solar.photovoltaic,alt.energy.homepower,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Re: Vapor Jet Pumps as Bottoming Cycle Refrigeration Cycle
Date: 21 Oct 1997 08:44:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <jforbes.6564.00AF35FC@primenet.com>
References: <344C11C2.4920@erols.com>
X-Posted-By: @206.165.47.3 (jforbes)
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2643 alt.solar.photovoltaic:4204 alt.energy.homepower:2703 alt.energy.renewable:28367

In article <344C11C2.4920@erols.com> David Wells <laseraxe@erols.com> writes:

>Has anyone got any information as to references that I can refer to to
>compute the efficiency of a cooling cycle using a Venturi vapor-jet
>ejector as a pump?

>The idea is this: you boil a material such as Freon 134a or butane at
>about 60 C, send the high pressure gas to a "vapor ejector", which is a
>handy little pump that I can buy in McMaster-Carr for a hundred bucks or
>so,  said vapor ejector uses steam or other vapors to create a vacuume
>with a converging/divergind sonic or supersonic nozzel, and then I use
>the vacuum to evaporate the refrigerant gas.

If that vapor jet pump is the kind I'm thinking of, it has two inlets, and one 
outlet....not too useful for your intended application, as it would mix the 
refrigerant with the steam.

Jim



From PRQR04A@prodigy.com Wed Oct 22 12:24:20 EDT 1997
Article: 2644 of alt.solar.thermal
Path: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!not-for-mail
From: PRQR04A@prodigy.com (Mr. Richard J. Lynch)
Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Environmental Web Site Needs YOUR Help!
Date: 22 Oct 1997 01:21:55 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 63
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <62jkfj$2nmm$4@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: innugap5-int.news.prodigy.com
X-Newsreader: BBUsenet Version 1.0
Xref: fddinewz.oit.unc.edu alt.solar.thermal:2644

NEW ENVIRONMENTAL WEB SITE -
Towards Greener Pastures 10/21/97

Towards Greener Pastures is a new web site set up at
http://pages.prodigy.com/technogreen/index.htm

Last month we introduced our as site a clearing house for
information on the field of ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. We hope to
impact the FUTURE by examing what works today by featuring
many effective environmental ideas being put forth as we enter 
the next millenium. Lastly, we will look at the FUTURE role of 
TECHNOLOGY and how it could positively improve the 
environmental health of the planet through the implementation
of planned city dwellings and other cutting edge ideas.

******
UPDATE
******

Last month we asked anyone interested to respond to the below
questions which we will build our site around.

The response was tremendous but we still need more to have a 
more diverse sampling of opinions. Thanks for your
participation!

----Start Survey----

Hi,

We are writing to recruit your help for our new environmentally orientated web page called Towards  Greener Pastures. We are college students who are developing this page as our senior project and we fully intend to carry this page and our mission on after our graduation.

Our web page is going to focus on several concepts - the first two being the ideas of sustainable development and environmental justice. These two terms are loosely defined within the environmental movement and we want to include definitions of them as a centerpiece of our web site. We hope to receive  responses from people involved in the environmental movement. We will then distill and summarize the terms "sustainable development" and "environmental justice" so our readers have a greater understanding of the concepts.

We also hope to point out ways in which those seeking college degrees in the environmental field can hope to advance their career and utilize their skills for the movement.

If you can answer any or all of the following questions it would be greatly appreciated and all or part of your comments may appear on our web site in the very near future.

Question #01: 
Please define your concept of  "sustainable development" and what methods is your organization employing to achieve this? 

Question #02:
Please define your concept of  "environmental justice"?

Question #03:
What are the key issues your group is currently working on?

Question #04:
What are your opinions of the national environmental organizations? Do you find them a help or a hindrance?

Question #05:
In your opinion, what employment opportunities exist or are up and coming for those individuals seeking degrees in environmental sciences and studies programs?

Lastly, we are going to review and provide hyper links to several web pages in the coming months. If you would like your web page to be reviewed please let us know as soon as possible.

We look forward to hearing from you soon.

Sincerely,
Richard and Laura Lynch
Towards Greener Pastures





