(4163) Wed 31 Jul 91 20:41 By: Tom Rieger To: ALL Re: POWER echo St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @MSGID: 1:260/242 7f94589b Announcing: The formation of the POWER conference. A FidoNet echo for the operators/maintainers of power, steam and refrigeration plants. Moderated by Tom Rieger, a stationary engineer with with working experience on nuclear and conventional naval propulsion plants, oil, gas and solid fuel steam generation plants and ammonia refrigeration systems. Topics to include (but not limited to) plant safety, plant operations, plant maintenance, innovations, co-generation, solid fuel firing, ash handling, water treatment, emissions reduction, problem solving... Anything you can think of which is related to the power/refrigeration industry. Private topology until I can take it regional and eventually place it on the backbone. NetMail link-up requests to 1:260/242. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) @PATH: 260/226 228 13/13 151/1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (679) Mon 20 May 91 16:01 By: Don Kulha To: all Re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Home Power" Magazine is a real delight.....I'ts printed normal mag size, probably runs 40-60 pages, printed 6x year, has some color, good drawing and pictures, excellent articles and reviews, a calendar of "event's", very interesting adverts.....It's all about getting along on the energy you can generate and capture with a bias toward real life systems and experiences. There's tech, lifestyle, editorial and humor between the covers and it's the best compendium of practical information on the field. There's not much on the big corporate size projects, it's more about "personal" sized systems. It's the best money I ever spent on a magazine subscription....DCK Contact: Home Power Magazine/P.O.Box 130/Hornbrook CA 96044 (916)475-3179/$10 yr (basic sub.- send more!) P.S.-It's also printed "responsibly" with degradeable/recyclable stuff --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (680) Sun 16 Jun 91 10:51 By: Gale Barrows To: Don Kulha Re: re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is another echo I will be anxiously watching !!! As I stated to Teresa, I hope to build a house soon but the REA wants better than $6,000 to bring in the juice. i expect I will be running 12 volt electricicty with a back up generator to run the computer. If there were only a cheap way to run this juice hog off 12 volt, I would be even happier. Will be watching. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (681) Mon 17 Jun 91 20:10 By: Don Kulha To: Ya'll Re: BioFuels St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ At Sonoma Online we also carry the SUST_AG (Sustainable Agriculture) conference and after my wife mentioned we had kicked off this echo some of the folks got very excited about it. Kevin Erb came up with this gem which he asked me to post here..... Grow your own fuel, state farmers told columbia, mo. -- Mel Blase was telling farmers how they can grow their own fuel. Behind him, a diesel tractor was purring along on bio-diesel fuel made from rapeseed oil. "You have a good shot at making money with this stuff, the way government programs are set up," Blase, an agricultural economist at the University of Missouri-Columbia, told farmers attending the University's Agronomy Day (June 5). Blase pointed out that farmers participating in government's program can grow oil crops under the 0-92 Oilseeds Program. Under that program, they can get deficiency payments for not growing a program crop, like corn or wheat, while using the same land for growing a oilseed crop, like canola. Blase, a farmer himself, said profit potential from bio-diesel fuels was looking good these days, and the situation could get even better when oil prices shoot back up. But, alas, Blase is also an economist. "There's money here, but you have to have just the right combination of things going for you." He then rattled off his list of "factors that have to be working in your favor if you're going to turn a profit." -- You have to be able to produce at least 2,000 pounds of industrial rapeseed per acre. "Not all farmers will get that yield the first time," Blase said. "But with 2,000 pounds, you'll produce a 100 gallons of oil and 1,200 pounds of meal per acre." -- You should cover land costs with payments from the 0-92 program, if you have a good base. "The value of the meal will cover all the other costs, except crushing and purifying the oil, " Blase said.. "To get the meal to 'pay out,' you have to have a cattle feeding operation, access to pelleting equipment, and credit the meal for its protein value." -- You should have a crusher on your farm or nearby. Blase figured crushing costs at 25 cents a gallon, plus another 25 cents for esterification (adding anhydrous methanol and potassium hydroxide to purify the fuel). -- You should have access to someone who is trained to make the fuel. With all of the above, Blase said, a farmer should be able to produce a gallon of bio-diesel fuel for about one-half the cost of petroleum-based diesel fuel. "But you have to take some risk and have all the right things going for you to make a profit," Blase said. Meanwhile, just a few miles away, University of Missouri agricultural engineers Jim Frisby and Leon Schumacher will soon be taking their bio-diesel-fueled pickup truck for a spin. The Missouri Soybean Merchandising Council is supporting their research to see if soy oil can be used economically in the trucking industry. "Soybean oil shows tremendous promise as a fuel for diesel engines," Schumacher said. In the past, soybean oil has been used to power stationary engines and farm tractors. However, in those studies, the engines worked on a heavy, continuous loads. Trucks require much more varied engine operating conditions. Schumacher and Frisby will replace the standard engine in the pickup truck with a diesel engine and modify it to use the heavier soybean oil. The soybean oil is degummed in a process in which the oil is treated with alcohol and a catalyst, which changes the molecular structure to make a free flowing fuel. "It's a process that with training and proper equipment any farmer can do," Schumacher said. The pickup truck will be tested for more than 12,000 miles to see how well it performs on the bio-diesel fuel. Back to Mel Blase and his tractor. "Every time petroleum prices go up ... and every time we improve techniques for squeezing oil out of oilseed crops ... potential looks better for farmers who want to produce their own bio-diesel fuel." Behind him the tractor kept running. "Notice, bio-diesel gives off less smoke," Blase said. "Its day will come." ### Contact: Melvin Blase, (314) 882-0128 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (682) Mon 17 Jun 91 20:14 By: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > This is another echo I will be anxiously watching !!! As I > stated to Teresa, I hope to build a house soon but the REA > wants better than $6,000 to bring in the juice. i expect I > will be running 12 volt electricicty with a back up > generator to run the computer. If there were only a cheap > way to run this juice hog off 12 volt, I would be even > happier. Powering the computer will be a piece of cake my friend. Lots of folks off the grid are doing that with small efficient inverters to get 110v AC from 12-24 volts. The magazine HP publishes is done that way and their are 12v DC Monitors and PC compatible power supplys (and printers and...). Will try and dig up some specifics for ya and get 'em posted. Consider that most real UPS systems are battery powered (though charged off the grid) so if you think about it all they are is a battery charger, an inverter, a battery bank and a power filter all rolled into one. The most efficent independant power systems designed these days are somewhat reliant on fuel generated power. Folks design their systems by totaling their consumption, getting the major percentage of power from solar or hydro or wind and make up the balance with a generator which they need for slack periods with their other power systems and/or powering large intermittent loads. Your power system might not actually be cheaper than the $6K you'd spend with the REA stringing lines in (if you build a big system) but then again you wouldn't get many power bills either.....More to come....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (683) Mon 17 Jun 91 21:32 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Edison's Rural Home St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ From Home Power Magazine #8 (Dec88-Jan89): Edison's Rural House When Thomas A Edison was asked whether the blessings of electric power could be extended to rural homes unreached by utility, he turned his attention to the problem and came up with an answer like gen set plus. A demonstration project called the Edison Twentieth Century Suburban Residence was opened to the public in 1912 in Lewellyn Park, NJ with electricity provided from twenty seven 150 amp/hr batteries kept charged by a 4hp gas engine generator (housed in the stable). The house must have been a marvel. Sixty-four light fixtures and lamps gave it a degree of illumination rare in those days, even in electrified city homes. The list f appliances is impressive even by 1988 standards: vacuum cleaner, washer, ringer, iron, refridgerator, stove, broiler, toaster, perk, teapot, egg-boiler, baby bottle warmer and hot shave mug. The bedrooms had bed warmers, the billiard room had a movie machine, the living room had a phonograph and the library had a dictating machine. Chicks were hatched in an incubator-brooder in the stable. Edison saw the efficency and economy of storing power from a part-time source in batteries and having it available on a full time basis. (Originally condensed from the 1982 issue of the now extinct SOLAR AGE magazine) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (684) Tue 18 Jun 91 1:10 By: Gale Barrows To: don Kuhla Re: fido St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ I will be asking my sysop (Ken Taylor of Grey Eagle, Falls Church, VA) to get this as doon as it becomes a fido echo. Thanks. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (685) Tue 18 Jun 91 18:19 By: Don Kulha To: Ya'll Re: This Month In Home Power Magazine... St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ As luck would have it I received the newest bi-monthly issue of Home Power magazine today (with a new subtitle "The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power") Some of the articles in this issue: -UltraLow-Head Hydro Power -Systems, PV vs. Seabrook -Fuel Cells, Power Source of the 90's -Photovoltaics, How PV's are rated -Health & Enviornment, Electromagnetic Fields -Wind, Wind Generator Towers -Photovoltaics, How PV's Work -Photovoltaics, PV Module Rating (yes, a second article on it) -Photovoltaics, Pond Aeration -Muscle Power, Pedal Power -Energy Fair, SEER '91, Willits CA (Aug. 9,10,11) -Inverters, How Inverters Work -Things That Work!, High Lifter Water Pump -Efficient Appliance, Washing Machines II -Energy Fair-Midwest RE Fair Amhurst, WI -Electric Vehicles, Solar & Electric 500 -Homebrew, 5 Projects from HP Readers -Code Corner, The NEC and You -Good Books, Renewable Energy Reading -Home & Heart, Washer & Vacuum Stuff -Happenings, Renewable Energy Events -The Wizard Speaks, Free Energy Update -Letters to Home Power -Q&A, The Manner of Techie Gore -Ozonal Notes, Our Staph Gets to Rant and Rave (their spelling...) -Home Power MicroAds Theres a bit more stuff but you get the idea. This issue is #23 and runs 98 pages. Their Quote for the month is: "We should all be concerned about the future because we will have to spend the rest of our lives there" - Charles Franklin Kettering, 1876-1958 Access: Home Power Magazine, POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044-0130 916-475-3179 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (686) Wed 19 Jun 91 23:16 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: SEER '91, Willits CA St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ You are again invited to the Solar Electric Capital Expo Willits, Ca Rally Over 100 functioning Dozens of solar, electric exhibits of the latest SOLAR and human powered vehicles in energy efficency & ENERGY competing for prizes in renewable energy which EXPO the Tour de Mendo Rally. include: Solar, wind, & World Championship Elect- wood, hydro & hydrogen RALLY rathon Race at Ukiah Race technologies '91 track with Speed Trials August 9th, 10th & 11th in Willits CA Sponsored by the Willits Chamber of Commerce Workshops and seminars on Solar electricity, solar water heating, passive solar design, lighting efficency, energy management & enviornmental products from specialists in the industry. International symposium on Global Village systems & funding, matching end-users with suppliers and financing. Final leg of the competition of the "Capital to Capital" electric vehicle race circuit featuring the California Clean Air Race; 1st leg: Sacramento-to-LA, 2nd leg: Clean Air Revival in S.F. and last Leg: Tour de Mendo at SEER '91. Kids activities: Solar electricity design workshop, solar toys and noveltys, Energy games & prizes, Kidcar EVehicle rides, Model Solar Car and boat race, car building workshop. Participants of the Energy Industry Forum on Friday, Aug. 9th, will be convening the New Energy Congress to ratify and sign the Declaration of Energy Independance. This statement of support for the development of con- servation and renewable energy technology will be hand delivered to the White House by a fleet of solar-electric vehicles. Advance Ticket Package for 2: Includes T-shirts (state sizes), Tickets for 2 days each, visitors guide and programs......$40 (save $10) SEER '91 T-shirts (Full color 100% cotton)... $15 SEER '91 Canvas Tote Bag......................$15 Single Day Admission..........................$5 Single day Admission, Students/Seniors........$2.50 Children under 12 with adult..................FREE Send Name, Address & Phone # with Order to: SEER '91, 239 S. Main, Willits CA 95409, (707)459-1256. Exhibitor/Rally Rules and Regs on Request. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (687) Wed 19 Jun 91 23:29 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Clarification St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ I would like to clarify a point here. We are not offically endorsed or sponsored by Home Power Magazine. We have taken a great deal of inspiration from them, lifted some of the info we'll share from their publication and were cheered on by Richard Perez their publisher. We spoke with him last year at the inaugural SEER event and he encouraged us to get this forum going and offered to copy the text of many of their articles to disk so they could be shared and the info utilized as widely as possible. Hey, these are OUR kind of folks!; damn the beurocracy, spread the gospel of renewable energy and full speed ahead! It's yet to be determined if they'll be joining us online or offering any endorsement but they were very excited about getting the info online....I'll be willing to accept bets and offering long odds that they will though (they do use Macs and modems....PV powered of course). We haven't offically named the echo but refered to it early on alternatly as they Home Power Systems/ Homebrew Power/ Homemade Power echo....It's kinda stuck as the HomePower echo. I've written Richard and time will tell. Hopefuly we'll be able to set up a node at the upcoming SEER '91 event (gotta scrounge some PV's, batterys and an inverter to power a system) and echo back to you folks from the festival. We'll keep you posted but no matter what we call it we'll be sharing info on Home Power Systems!......DCK P.S.-For now I guess I'm the official/unoffical moderator/head-cheerleader here for the meantime. After things get established I'll probably bow-out of that position though...DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (688) Mon 24 Jun 91 21:06 By: Frank Matthews To: all Re: cheap solar St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi, I just found a cheap solar panel (12V-1watt...small) wired to plug into a car/camper lighter...for only 27.49$/each...source is Alltronics in San Jose...408-943-9773...just the thing to stick on a camper dash to keep the batteries cooking... >>>>==Frank==*>>> Forrest's BBS 901-278-1712-Ring Twice-Hang Up-WAIT 6 SECS-Call Back --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (689) Tue 25 Jun 91 22:46 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Welcome St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ In Welcoming two new systems to our echo (151/502 and 323/109) I would like to "replay" our opening message which stated the subject and hopes for our fledgling conference (...in part because I'm not sure confmail will re-export it right). Enjoy.... Original Message Date: Tue 25 Jun 91 22:45 From: Don Kulha To: All Subj: Home Brew Power Many folks in the U.S. have chosen not to hook into the normal utility power grid and to generate their own power. Some of us are planning to take this step, some are forced into it and others are still dreaming of the day that they can buy that piece of country property and do so. Northern CA is a hotbed of homebrew power folks and this conference is dedicated to them. Some of the topics that will likely be dealt with here are: Solar energy, solar panels, inverters, battery systems, hydro power, solar cooking, energy conservation, electrical wiring, generators, phone systems (radio & otherwise), water heating, appliances and electric powered transportation. There are many others also appro to this conference too numerous to mention....we'll just have to discover them as we go along. Our BBS, Sonoma Online is going to kick-off and promote this conference. We will be contacting other BBS systems in Northern CA to invite them to join in the discussion and fun. Eventually, if enough folks participate and find this echo of value, I'm sure it will spread across the country. To be sure our start will be a slow one but there are many thousands of folks "living off the grid" and dreaming of "cutting the cord" so I think it wil become quite useful and popular. Finally, credit where it's due. This conference (and this sysop) was inspired by and somewhat modeled on a great publication called "Home Power" magazine which has been in print for several years now and is a tremendous resource. Last summer we met Richard Perez, the publisher and editor at the Solar Energy Expo and Rally (SEER '90), held in Willits CA in early August (a must do event!, details soon). He offered to give us copies of hundreds of articles they've published over the years on disk to post online for you so we'll likely establish a file area for downloading them and also post some of the shorter pieces to the echo. Hopefully they'll eventualy get online with us and share some of their wealth of experience. This is gonna be a lot of fun folks! Don Kulha/Sonoma Online BBS --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (690) Tue 25 Jun 91 5:59 By: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e05795c * In a message originally to Don Kulha, Gale Barrows said: GB>This is another echo I will be anxiously watching !!! As I GB>stated to Teresa, I hope to build a house soon but the REA GB>wants better than $6,000 to bring in the juice. i expect I GB>will be running 12 volt electricicty with a back up generator GB>to run the computer. If there were only a cheap way to run GB>this juice hog off 12 volt, I would be even happier. GB>Will be watching. GB> GB>--- ConfMail V3.31 GB> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 GB>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Well, $6000 is a lot of $$$ money and I am real glad I didn't have to put up money for power but remote power equipment is expensive! But for your computer, Heart makes a nice 300 Watt AC inverter. Tie it to some 12 volts batteries and bingo! 300 watts of AC for you application. But you be sure and use a surge suppressor if you do is. I am familiar with the Heart AC waveshape, it is better than Triplite by far but to run a computer..use a surge suppressor. The 300 watt inverter and some used car batteries could get you started for less than $1000. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (691) Tue 25 Jun 91 6:01 By: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e0579b8 One more thing, the most important thing a bout Remote Power Systems is to find a good dealer who knows his stuff, if someone besides you is going to do the work. There is nothing more important than a quality tech backed by a dealer with good integrity! Talk to some people! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (692) Wed 26 Jun 91 17:41 By: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: Home Computer Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Getting back to your original post Gale....I wanted to dig up an article I'd read a short while back for some info for you....It was in Home Power Mag #22 (April/May 91)...... > Original Message Date: 16 Jun 91 10:51:48 > From: Gale Barrows > stated to Teresa, I hope to build a house soon but the REA > wants better than $6,000 to bring in the juice. i expect I > will be running 12 volt electricicty with a back up > generator to run the computer. If there were only a cheap > way to run this juice hog off 12 volt, I would be even > There are a couple ways to go at running your PC off of 12 volt power. A while back HP mag ran an article by a fellow who was converting IBM PC compatibles to run off of 12v DC. That involved a 12v monitor and a specially modified power supply. In looking at a pinout diagram of the standard IBM type power supply I keep handy all the leads are either grounds or +5vdc or +12vdc. I would think it not too difficult to to modify or build a power supply to run off of 12vdc to supply your computers power needs. Then too this chap was modifying/building systems that were 12vdc powered so you could always contact him (will either find that back issue or get the info from Richard Perez soon). If you aren't running a PC compatible I think it would still be a fairly simple matter. I believe my old Atari 800 used 9vdc for everything so that would be an even simpler hack. The article I was looking for was a review of the Powerstar series of inverters (Powerstar Products, 10011 North Foothill Blvd, Cupertino, CA 95014, (408)973-8502). H-P reviewed their 1,300 watt model ($799) and they also offer a 400w ($399) and 700w ($499) models. They raved about this product. It was very efficent giving efficencys of 98% at 25w (where most inverters of this size are about 30% efficient) about 97% at 100w, 89% at 300w,92% at 600w, and 94-95% from there on up to it's rated 1300w. I would expect the smaller models to offer similar great performance. These inverters are also upgradeable, ie., the 400 can be upgraded to 700 which is covertable to 1300w which is unique. These are modified sine wave inverters using a high frequency (30kHZ) DC to DC switching power supply. The high voltage DC is then chopped by field effect transistors into modified sine wave 120vAC. The 1300w model is tiny because of this and wieghs a mere 5lbs. It is extremely quiet in the audio and radio spectrums. Another great thing about it is that only consumes 1 watt (yes one) on standby which means that you can leave it on all the time without wasting significant power...that alone could change the way people use inverters (especially considering it's high low load efficency figures). In the test they ran all sorts of loads on it, microwaves, shopvacs, satellite TV and shortwave systems, lights, wall cube power supplys, etc. all of which worked as good or better than they have on other inverters. This sounds like a tremendous product. The reason I think it would be good for you is that it should power your computer system just fine and allow you some other 120vac luxuries on a regular basis without having to fire off the generator. While it's true that running your lighting and other appliances directly off of 12vdc bypasses any possible losses from the inverter considering the efficencys of the Powerstar units inverted power is darn convienient too. It sure would be nice to be able to punch the vcr on button and power up the trinitron without first cranking the generator or inverter. These small highly efficent inverters may hearld a new era of convienience for off-grid power generating households.....Check it out! P.S.-Gale, you mentioned a generator....hopefully you'll use it to charge your batterys and have a solar array (the prices are darn reasonable these days) to provide the bulk of your power from a renewable resource. Sadly I must admitt to still being a "grid-sucker" myself but I'm assembling the tools and knowledge to get off the grid and into the country soon. My first step is going to be taking this BBS off the grid and we'll progress from there....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (693) Wed 26 Jun 91 18:46 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Energy Fair St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Great Lakes Renewable Energy Fair will be held July 19, 20 and 21 at Transverse City Michigan. It will feature demonstrations, display booths, workshops, speakers, kid's activities, alternative transportation, entertainment, camping, food and tours. Contact: Great Lakes Renewable Energy Association (GLREA),11059 Bright Road, Maple City, Michigan 49664 (616)228-7159 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (694) Wed 26 Jun 91 18:50 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Midwest Nieghbors St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Just a note here that some of you may be interested in the Midwest Renewable Energy Association. The MREA con be contacted at 116 Cross Street, P.O. Box 249, Amherst, WI 54406 (715)824-5166. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (695) Wed 26 Jun 91 19:19 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Resource Directory St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Solar Electricity Today" The 1991-1992 Renewable Energy Resource Directory is now available. H-P mag reviewed the newest edition and had this to say: "This is a vastly updated and expanded listing of most every manufacturer, distributor and dealer in the field of renewable energy. It contains over 800 listings spanning the topics of publications, dealers, manufacturers vy type. Names and complete addresses, most with phone numbers, make this resource directoryfor anyone in the biz and anyone purchasing components or services. Editor Paul Wilkins deserves the Medal of Excellence with PV clusters for the great work he's put into this new directory." "Solar Electricity Today contains 16 pages in an 8.5" by 11" black and white format. Cost is $7.00 from PV Network News, 2303 Cedros Circle, Santa Fe, NM 87505 * (505)473-1067. At less than a penny per listing Solar Energy Today is a fantastic information bargain." I will begin searching for and putting together a listing of all the renewable energy companies, groups, and resources I know of shortly to post into the HomePower echo but it won't begin to compare in scope with what these folks have done.....sounds like a great deal. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (696) Wed 26 Jun 91 19:40 By: Don Kulha To: Echo Recipients Re: Updates St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ I'd appreciate a note periodically if/when you add feeds to this echo so I can publish a master access list in the various related echos so folks know where they can link in. Many Thanks! Don Kulha/Moderator @ 125/7 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (697) Mon 1 Jul 91 0:08 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Abortive Attempt St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ I worked on compiling a database of renewable energy product vendors in spare time over the weekend. Tried to send it out via the echo this eve but the screen formatting left lots to be desired. I'm using a new machine (a Zenith laptop-a good solar power candidate), a new database program and basically ran out of time to get it right this eve. It's coming though! I think a lot of folks will find resources, both for bits and info, that will be very handy. More soon! .........DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (983) Sat 20 Jul 91 14:04 By: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: re: Laptop 'puters St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Don, Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid battery is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a 12 volt ni-cad is actually 12 volts. *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more than it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the LCD display and its associated drivers. Check this out pretty carefully before you fry your new toy! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (1021) Sat 20 Jul 91 21:59 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 1 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Seeking Our Own Level by Paul Cunningham // This second issue of Home Power Magazine gives me the opportunity as Hydro Power editor to wax philosophical. A chance to put aside thinking about the "hows" of generating electrical power from water and to reflect on the whys, by still waters, of course. Around a decade or more ago a certain realization was taking hold. Yes, we could escape the prescribed route of greater specialization, consumerism and urbanization that North American culture had mapped for us. The ultimate metaphor for carving out our new lifestyle from the social and spiritual wilderness was to generate our own electricity from wind, sun, and water. Home Power. We were and are literally putting the power back into our own hands. It was a matter of the amperage and the ecstasy. Becoming more conscious of our energy generation and consumption also brought the realization that we really needed very little electricity to be comfortable. So where are we now? This is difficult to assess since the people involved are by their situation a very decentralized group. Yet, I receive letters from all over the world from people who know something about head and flow, nuts and volts, and also from those who don't, but believe in the magic of turning water into electricity. The truth is, we are everywhere. We are part of an unnoticed, but vital and growing, network of people who are interested in generating their own power. And now this spectrum has broadened to a great degree. Reasons for small-scale power generation range from the practical (beyond the commercial power lines) to the environmental (small scale generation is less harmful than megaprojects or nukes). The original trickle of backwater hydro power enthusiasts has swelled. Water, of course, is not deterred by obstacles-- it flows over them, wears them down through time and seeks its own level. Something like this is happening with the alternative energy movement in general. The part that is successful has persevered and attracted a following on its own terms. A very --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (1022) Sat 20 Jul 91 22:00 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 2 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ persevered and attracted a following on its own terms. A very interesting aspect of this movement is what can be offered to the developing countries. Progress does not have to mean expensive large projects and centralization of power generation. Individual people can master this simple, small scale technology. This mastery will dramatically change their lives. Just a little energy production can produce vast improvements in the quality of life. Alternative energy can provide lights for a village to work or read by, or power pumps to move water for drinking or irrigation, or power tools for cottage industries. The possibilities of alternative energy are endless and revolutionary. The surface has barely been scratched. So Let's Change... Clearly the world needs a new blueprint for development and change. Alternative energy is definitely part of this new blueprint. At least, there is now some groundwork in this field that proves its viability . This, alone, is an accomplishment. This magazine will help in a technological and philosophical exchange of ideas. Home Power is a forum for small scale alternative energy. Right now there is no other publication that seriously addresses the requirements and interests of people involved in personal power production. We need a higher profile if we hope to be one of the keepers of the light. It is unclear why home-sized water power, in particular, is so little known. It is true that other forms of comparable energy sources receive far more attention. The supreme reliability of photovoltaics and the romance of wind power are well established. Somehow the use of residential sized hydro-power has been largely overlooked. Part of this is likely due to the sound of the output figures. Although a water power system may produce 100 watts of power 24 hour per day, it sounds like so much less than a PV (or wind) system that has a peak output of 1,000 or 2,000 watts. Yet the water system could easily produce more total power output over a given time span. And be much cheaper. I read recently in a magazine (New Shelter) a comparison of three types of alternative energy systems. It was stated that "experts agree" that a hydro site capable of less than 500 watts continuous output is simply not worth bothering with. It is safe to say that a wind or PV system with this level of output would be at least a five figure investment. My own household operates on a maximum of 100 watts of continuous power input and runs quite successfully on less when water flow drops. Please understand that all forms of alternative energy technology are site specific. At any given location there may be compelling factors that favor one form. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (1023) Sat 20 Jul 91 22:02 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ This site specific nature still doesn't explain the low proliferation of water power. This discussion does not imply competition between the various forms of alternative energy. The situation is one of cooperation rather than competition. Many times more than one type of power generation can be used to produce a hybrid system that is both more reliable in output and more cost effective than a single source. The point being made is simply that the very useful source of water power should not be overlooked. So far no large business has attempted to develop the personal sized hydro market. The advantage to the small manufacturer like myself, of course, is that we can still remain in business. The small hydro market has such a low profile that raising it by any means would probably be helpful to all involved. At present, none of the few small manufacturers has the business machinery to aggressively promote their product or to greatly increase production if it was required. The industry is in its infancy. A Look Forward Improvements in magnetics and electronics make possible devices that would be a quantum leap ahead of the present day offerings. Higher-frequency generation using the new super magnets, coupled with solid state switching, could create cheaper and more efficient machines. Although more advanced machines are not strictly needed, a certain amount of R&D is necessary to produce any product. This will continue and is healthy for both the industry and the consumer. But thus far the machinery itself is not the limitation on its use. The consciousness of the market is controlling the growth of alternative energy at this time. This became very clear to me when I first started my business. Most of my sales went to the U.S. West Coast even though my location is in Atlantic Canada. The main work needing to be done is increasing the awareness of potential alternative energy users. So you corner the market. What if there is no market? I believe the market is unlimited but no one has noticed. This is certainly the case in developing countries. Most areas have little or no power. And these people are not likely to be reading our English language publication. So This Is The Challenge! To spread the word any and every possible way. This is why we are here with Home Power. Hopefully this will set in motion the realization that we (and our planet) will benefit more from small local power systems than the centralized capital-intensive types. Article Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine Originally published Jan-Feb 1988 Issue --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3538) Sun 21 Jul 91 22:55 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Steam Anyone? St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ I was wondering if anyone else here is intereseted in steam power? It occurs to me that it could be a worthwhile area to look into. Someone a while back entered a message with steam as the topic, inquired as to Testla turbine feasability and info but didn't mention it in the body of their message. I know that the Testla turbine was first used in conjunction with steam. I also was looking through some catalogs I keep at work (Lindsay's) for info to pass on to the fellow (coming up shortly) and did find references to it and a book with (I think) info that this chap wants. Interestingly enough there, next to the book listing, was a picture of a Testla turbine and a footnote about the picture saying it was courtesy of "Live Steam", a magazine I've seen at the local newsstand (bought a copy too and a friend quickly borrowed it). Anyway, Nickola Tesla demoed his turbine as a engine to drive an electrical generator...interesting. Whether one used Tesla's turbine or some other type of steam engine I'm sure interested in the possibility of harnessing solar energy to heat a boiler to generate electrical power or compressed air (or to pump water, or....). You might even be able to use some of the by product (steam) for distilled water (just dandy for batteries eh?). Might be a nice alternative to a generator burning fossil fuels for some applications and you could steam your veggies at the same time! (grin). Even non-solar steam could be interesting in the AE scheme of things.....Hmmmmmm..... DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3539) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:22 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 1 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Build Your Own 12 VDC Engine/Generator by Richard Perez This small, easy to build, generator is the answer to a burning AE question. What do we do when the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, and the creek dries up. This generator is a back up power source for times when our AE sources don't meet our demands. It is optimized to do only one thing-- properly recharge batteries. Engine/Generator Overview Before we actually discuss the construction of this engine/generator, let's examine the job it is designed to do. It is the nature of this task that determines the various design decisions we need to make when constructing this back up generator and its control system. Source Capacity Every AE system should have at least one power source capable of recharging the batteries at between C/10 to C/20 rates of charge. For example, a battery pack of 700 ampere-hours periodically needs to be recharged at a minimum of 35 amperes (its C/20 rate). To figure the C/20 rate for your pack simply divide its capacity in Ampere-hours by 20. The resulting number is the C/20 rate in Amperes. The C/20 rate is the minimum necessary for equalizing charges. If the batteries cannot be equalized they will fail more rapidly. Power Source Control Most energy sources that charge batteries need to be controlled. If the charging source is not controlled, then the batteries may be overcharged or charged too rapidly. They can be ruined. The most common method of control is voltage regulation. This works fine in cars and in batteries with shallow cycle, float service. Voltage regulation alone is not enough for deeply cycled batteries. They must also be current regulated to prevent too rapid recharging. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3540) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:24 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: generator 2 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Voltage Regulation Voltage regulation only is OK for batteries that are very shallowly cycled. In shallow cycle service the battery refills almost immediately since it has only had a small amount of its energy removed. In deep cycle service the batteries have had about 80% of their energy removed before recharging. If deep cycle batteries are recharged from a source that is voltage regulated, they will be charged at the total output current of the source as it struggles to bring the batteries immediately to the set voltage limit. If the charging source has say 55 amperes available, then it will charge the batteries at this 55 amp. rate. If the battery is a 100 ampere-hour battery, then the C/10 rate for this battery is 10 amperes. The 55 amperes from the source would recharge the 100 ampere-hour battery at a rate over five times faster than it should be charged. This will result in premature battery failure, higher operating costs, and much lower system efficiency. Constant Current Constant current charging means that the batteries are recharged at a fixed amperage rate until they are full. The voltage of the batteries is left unregulated until the batteries are full. The rate of charge is usually between C/10 and C/20. Constant current charging assures that the batteries are not charged too rapidly. Rates of charge greater than C/10 produce heat which can warp the heavier plates of the deep cycle batteries. Too rapid recharging wastes energy in heat, and gradually ruins the batteries. Solar Cells and Wind Machines It is easy not to put up enough wind or solar to do the job. Wind and solar sources are currently expensive enough that the tendency is not to buy enough power to adequately run the system and recharge the batteries. If you are running stand alone wind or solar sources be sure that they can deliver at least a C/20 rate to your batteries. Wind and solar systems also need a motorized backup to provide constant, on demand, power for equalizing charges. Motorized Powerplants The motorized plant is reliable, high in power, and relatively cheap to purchase. The motorized source has the distinct advantages of delivering large amounts of power when you need it. This is very different from wind and solar systems, where you have to take it when you can get it. Its major disadvantage is that it requires fuel. Motorized sources do not usually suffer from being undersized. If the power source is capable of delivering between C/20 and C/10 rates of charge to the batteries, then the system is happy. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3541) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:25 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 3 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lawnmower Engines and Car Alternators The idea here is to use a lawnmower engine (or other small horizontal shaft motor) to drive an automotive alternator. The alternator puts out between 35 and 200 amperes (depending on its size) of 12 to 18 volt DC energy to charge the batteries. The first engine we used actually came from an old lawnmower we bought for $35. We got a 35 ampere Delco alternator from a dead Chevy in the junkyard for $15. We bolted the entire works to a thick wood slab, and used an old oven heating element as a crude resistive field controller. The unit ran and charged our 350 ampere-hour battery for 2 years before the motor died. Type and Size of Motor We've since tried many different combinations of motors and alternators. Small gas motors between 3 and 8 horsepower are ideal for this job. We found that the Honda small engines will run about 5,000 hours without major work, Tecumseh engines about 800 hours, and Briggs & Stratton engines about 600 hours. The Honda also has the advantage of a 100 hour oil change interval, compared with 25 hours for both the Tecumseh and the Briggs & Stratton. If you consider the operating life and operating cost of small engines, then the higher quality units are much less expensive in spite of their higher initial cost. The engine's size is determined by the size of the alternator. This assures a balance between system efficiency and cost. A 35 ampere alternator can be driven by a 3 hp. motor. A 100 ampere alternator needs at least a 5 hp. motor. For alternators between 100 and 200 amperes use the 8 hp. motor. Type and Size of Alternator Just about any automotive alternator will work in these systems. What really counts is the size of the alternator. Its current output (amperage rating) should be sized to match the capacity of the battery pack. The more capacity the battery pack has the bigger the alternator which charges it must be. The alternator must be able to deliver at least a C/20 rate of charge to the batteries. We have had good results with 35 ampere Delco alternators for battery packs under 700 ampere-hours. Batteries up to 1,400 ampere-hours are fed with the 100 ampere Chrysler alternators. Packs larger than 1,400 ampere-hours should have a 200 ampere rated alternator. The higher amperage alternators are measurably more efficient than the smaller ones. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3542) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:25 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 4 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ The higher amperage alternators are more difficult to find. Try your local auto electric shops, they may have a source for these high amp jewels. Regular alternators up to 70 amperes are usually available from junkyards at less than $20. Alternator rebuilders can provide rebuilt units from $40. to $150. These alternators are a good investment. They are designed to run under the hood of a hot car on a Summer's day. In the type of service we give them they run cool and last a very long time. I've seen these alternators last over 10 years with just the replacement of bearings and brushes. The more modern alternators contain their voltage regulators within the alternator's case. These internal regulators need to be disabled before these alternators are useful in this system. If you can't do this yourself, then take the alternator to an alternator shop for help. Some alternators have what is known as an "isolated field", these need to have one field lead grounded and simply feed positive energy to the other field lead. The older Delco types are very simple and straight forward to use, they require no modification. Getting it all together- Assembly We originally bolted both the alternator and the motor to a wooden slab about 16" by 24" and 4 inches thick. Be very careful on this step. If the motor pulley and the alternator pulley are not properly aligned, then the unit will wear belts out very rapidly. These units work best on heavy metal bases. There is a lot of vibration and the wooden slabs give up after a few years. Either add a sheet of 1/4" to 3/8" steel between the wood and the motor/alternator, or make the base completely out of metal. A local welding shop made us a base out of 3/8" steel plate with a welded 1" by 2" steel square tubing perimeter for $50. You can see it in the photograph. If you can weld the materials cost about $18. INSERT FIGS 1 We coupled the alternator to the motor with an "A" sized Vee belt. Keep the belt length to a minimum by mounting the motor and alternator close together. We use belts between 28 and 33 inches in total length. The stock pulley on the alternator works well. The best sized motor pulley is between 5 and 6 inches in diameter. This pulley ratio gears up the alternator for better efficiency while allowing the motor to run about 2,200 rpm. We have had very poor results with the lightweight cast aluminum pulleys. These light pulleys were not up to the job and broke frequently. We're now using cast and machined iron pulleys (such as the Woods SDS pulleys) that work very well and are extremely rugged. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3543) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:28 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 5 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Use heavy bolts with lock washers to secure everything to the base. Be sure to get the alternator turning in the right direction. Electrically it makes no difference, but the alternator's fan is designed to suck air from the back of the alternator and to exhaust this air in front around the pulley. If the alternator's fan is running backwards then the alternator will overheat when heavily loaded. Use large wire to hook up the output of the alternator. Something between 6 gauge and 2 gauge is fine, depending on the length of the runs. Locate the motor/alternator as close as possible the batteries. This keeps power loss in the wiring to a minimum. Consult the Basic Electricity article in this issue for details. Control Systems The first motorized charger we built worked fine, but we had problems controlling it. We were using a stock car voltage regulator. It wanted to charge the batteries far too quickly; in many attempts the large load stalled the motor. We have experimented with many forms of control for the alternator and have finally arrived at several which work well. All alternator controls work by limiting the amount of power supplied to the alternator's rotating magnetic field. All alternator control starts with controlling the field's energy. Car Voltage Regulators Car voltage regulators will not work well in deep cycle applications. The regulator makes its decisions based only on the system's voltage. This is fine with the average car battery which is cycled to less than 1% of its capacity before being refilled. The deep cycle battery, however, is almost empty when it is recharged. The car voltage regulator attempts to instantly bring the system's voltage to about 14 volts. A 12 volt deep cycle lead-acid battery will not reach a voltage of 14 volts until it is almost filled. The net result is that the car regulator dumps the entire output of the alternator into the batteries until they are full. This is most always too much energy too fast for a fully discharged battery. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3544) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:29 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 6 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ To compound the problem, the car regulator's voltage limit is set too low for deep cycle service. This low voltage limit means that the batteries are charged too slowly when they are almost full, resulting in many extra hours of generator operation to totally fill the battery pack. Since the car regulator is set at about 14 volts, we are unable to raise the system voltage up to over 16 volts for the essential equalizing charges. Resistive Field Controller The simplest and cheapest form of alternator control is to use resistance to limit the amount of energy that is fed to the alternator's field. The idea is very simple, insert resistance between the battery's positive pole and the wire feeding the alternator's field. Resistance in the neighborhood of 2 to 25 ohms works well. Adjust the resistance until the charge rate into the battery is between C/20 and C/10. The less the resistance in the field line, the higher the amperage output of the alternator. Originally we used a nichrome wire heating element from an old electric stove as a resistor. We used more or less wire (hence more or less resistance) with a wire clip lead. It worked fine. A better resistor to use is a 0 to 25 ohm rheostat (an adjustable power resistor) rated at least 25 watts. This allows smooth adjustment of the alternators output. Figure 2 shows the wiring hookup for a resistive field controller. INSERT FIG 2 Using resistive field control produces a system which is current regulated only. The resistive circuit does not provide any form of voltage regulation. When the batteries are full the system voltage can get very high, over 16 volts. Voltage this high can damage 12 VDC appliances that are on line at the time. The highest voltage for most 12 volt equipment is 15 volts. If you are using resistive field control, be sure to monitor the system's voltage and reduce the current output of the alternator to keep the system voltage under 15 volts when appliances are being used. Mk. VI Electronic Field Controller We eventually solved the problem of control by designing a series of electronic field controllers that regulate both the amperage and the voltage of the alternator. With this electronic field control, we simply set the desired charge rate, and set the system's voltage ceiling. The battery is recharged at a constant rate until it is full. When the batteries are full, the voltage limit predominates and the system is voltage regulated, thereby protecting the batteries from overcharging. And also protecting all electrical equipment on line. The amperage output is adjustable from 0 to the full rated output of the alternator. The voltage limit is adjustable from 13.5 volts to 16.5 volts. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3545) Sun 21 Jul 91 23:31 By: Don Kulha To: all Re: Generator 7 of 7 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ For the intrepid electronic builder, this electronic field controller's schematic is illustrated in Figure 3. This field controller uses off the shelf parts available at Radio Shack. Printed circuit boards, kits, and completed field controllers are available from the Electron Connection Ltd., P.O. Box 442, Medford, Oregon 97501. Complete installation and operating instructions are included. Write for more info. INSERT FIG 3 Using a Motorized Source for Equalizing Charges The motorized source is the best type to use for the equalizing charges. Its voltage output is capable of being adjusted to over 16 volts in order to accomplish the equalizing charge. The motorized source is capable of delivering a C/20 rate of charge for the least 7 continuous hours necessary for battery equalization. Remember the batteries must already be full before the equalizing charge is started. Users of solar and wind systems should consider constructing a lawnmower powerplant just to equalize their batteries. The very nature of wind and solar energy makes it very difficult to equalize the batteries without such a motorized power source. This generator makes excellent backup power for times when Mother Nature isn't cooperating with our energy demands. Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine From Issue #2, Jan-Feb 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3546) Mon 22 Jul 91 23:48 By: Lou Schneider To: Don Kuhla Re: Real Goods St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Don, are you familiar with Real Goods Trading Co. in Ukiah? They publish the Alternative Energy Sourcebook, a 400 page manual that also doubles as a catalog for the products they carry. It's $14, refundable with your first $100 order. One gem in there is Thomas Glover's _Pocket Ref_, a comprehensive pocket sized reference book. Included is everything from compressed airand gasses to automotive, carpentry and masonry, element tables, Epson printer codes, wire and screw sizes, math, general sciences, glue, hardware ... the list goes on and on. Real Goods Trading Co. 966 Mazzoni St. Ukiah, CA 95482 (707) 468-9214 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3547) Tue 23 Jul 91 11:00 By: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Steam! St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, you know?) As for the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, I suspect that it would not run well on anything but steam, and (just possibly) compressed air. I know we used to use a large air compressor to turn over the 2500BPH triple-expansion, dual reciprocating steam power plant about the S.S. Jeremiah O'Brien when we aere servicing her. Did you know that *EVERYTHING* about a Liberty Ship was steam driven? There were in excess of 40 steam enginers aboard a Liberty! This included the main enginer, the electrical generators (3, each with it's own single cylinder steam plant), the cargo winches, the steering mechanism (yes, a steam powered, 4 cylinder servomechanism!), water pumps, air pumps, you name it! Pretty neat. Steam is a clean, simple technology (of course, the cleanliness of it depends on the source of heat). Steam is reliable, efficient and *FUN*. It is also tricky, and can be *EXTREMELY* dangerous! For example, a boiler with a 1000 gallon water capacity, operating at 150 pounds of pressure, is one INCREDIBLE bomb! Consider that when steaming, there are 145.25 cu. ft. of water at approximately 275 degrees F. Should anything breach the boiler shell and release the pressure, that water will flash into steam in something like 1.5 milliseconds, and will rather suddenly occupy *1800 TIMES* it's initial volume, or some 261,458 cu ft.!!!!!! That's 9683.6 cu yards! Steam explosions are, to say the least, spectacular! For this reason, water-tube, as opposed to fire-tube boilers are much safer. In the event of a leak, the boiler is self-quenching. Moreover, there is less metal surface exposed to a dangerous combination of high temperature *AND* high pressures. While a water-tube boiler can still explode, it is much less likely, and generally somewhat less violent (water tube boilers hold less water per pound of steam per hour capacity). Then again, you just haven't *LIVED* until you've had to re-pack a steam throttle valve while there's 100 PSIG of live steam flowing through the line! Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3548) Tue 23 Jul 91 17:10 By: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Steam Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 23 Jul 91 11:00:24 > From: Tom Keller > To: Don Kulha > *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! > (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, > you know?) > I'm possibly becoming a convert there too. It might just have some practical applications in alternative energy systems. Now granted, the conference isn't just on AE but also on personal power production. Still it behoves us to look at alternatives to gas fired backup generators. They have their place certainly but we should look down every avenue to find ways of avoiding their use. Solar produced steam could be ideal. Part of the reason folks have the gas fired generators is that sometimes the sun ain't out, the wind doesn't blow and you don't have any hydro potential. I suspect, though I don't have the hard data to back it up, that it's better for the enviornment to get a 1000 btu from your wood lot than from Standard Oil. > As for the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, I suspect that it > would not run well on anything but steam, and (just > possibly) compressed air. I know we used to use a large air > compressor to turn over the 2500BPH triple-expansion, dual > reciprocating steam power plant about the S.S. Jeremiah > O'Brien when we aere servicing her. > I found the catalogs a few days back....Lindsay's Publications (POB 583, Manteno IL 60950 (815)468-3668) puts out several catalogs full of interesting low/hi tech stuff. The two catalogs of theirs I have (Electrical Books/Technical Books) are fascinating. A lot of the stuff relates to old technology and how to do it yourself. Their electrical books catalog lists a phamplet titled "Tesla: The lost inventions" featuring data on several devices including the bladeless turbine. I ordered three books/phamplets from them today...the one just mentioned plus one on building copper-oxide solar cells and another on windmills. There are a couple sketchs in the catalog of the Tesla turbine which have whetted my curiousity. They look simple to make so after I get the book one of the machinists at the lab and I will probably build a small one to experiment with (using a bunch of scrap 5.25" diameter aluminum disk platters for plates). > > Steam is a clean, simple technology (of course, the > cleanliness of it depends on the source of heat). Steam is > reliable, efficient and *FUN*. It is also tricky, and can > be *EXTREMELY* dangerous! > Yep, as per my observations above it may be a great way to break reliance on fossil fuels for some apps. The Edmunds scientific catalog lists one freznel lens (about 3 feet sq.) as generating over 2000 deg. F at it's focal point so at some point short of that focal point might be a good place to focus it on a heavy copper block attached to the boiler to focus the light on. I'm only thinking about about building a small 2-3hp engine at this point and this might do it dependant on the efficency of the boiler/engine combo. The co-generation possibilities also have me fascinated. > > For this reason, water-tube, as opposed to fire-tube > boilers are much safer. In the event of a leak, the boiler > is self-quenching. Moreover, there is less metal surface > exposed to a dangerous combination of high temperature *AND* > high pressures. While a water-tube boiler can still > explode, it is much less likely, and generally somewhat less > violent (water tube boilers hold less water per pound of > steam per hour capacity). > > Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, > Steam Enthusiast! > I'll confer with you later on in my project. Borrowed a book on building various sterling and steam engines and boilers today. I need to do a lot of research and procede cautiously when it comes to the actual steam generation. Water @ 275 deg. F and 150 PSI expands to steam volumetrically at a rate of 1800:1? Wow! Sounds like theres some real useable power there! Thanks for the info....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3549) Wed 24 Jul 91 19:09 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 1 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Trace Inverter Model 1512 Test Environment-- We tested the 1512 at our site located about 12 miles from any commercial utilities. This place has been totally powered by alternative energy since 1976. Photovoltaics and motorized generators (both 12 VDC and 120 VAC) are the power sources. We hooked the 1512 inverter to 2 Trojan L-16W batteries (350 ampere-hours at 12 volts) for the test period. The 1512 was wired to the batteries with 0 gauge copper cables with a combined length of less than 6 feet. The inverter is used to power a variety of test equipment, computers, printers, power tools, kitchen appliances, and some lighting. The 1512 was constantly monitored by a DC powered oscilloscope (fully isolated from the 1512's output by its own internal battery power supply), a DVM, and an analog expanded scale AC voltmeter during the entire testing period of three weeks. Packing, Installation Instructions, and Owner's Manual The unit was packed very well and survived UPS shipping. The shipping container is first class. We first turned our attention to the installation instructions, and operator's manual. It is well written, very thorough, and has a folksy flavor that is refreshing. The short form for immediate hookup is a very good idea for impatient customers. All the instructions are clear and concise. No one should have any trouble installing or operating the model 1512. All that is necessary is to read the manual. The manual is very detailed in comparison with those of other inverter manufacturers. It may be a little too technical for some, but it is good to see this information available to the users. The discussion of the various types of loads and how they function on this inverter is very good, and will help non-technical users understand such things. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3550) Wed 24 Jul 91 19:10 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 2 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Inverter Operation The 1512 powers inductive loads better than any inverter we have ever used. Regardless of size or type of load (we tried all kinds), the inverter was very consistent in its output waveform. We saw on the oscilloscope that we could not get the inverter's waveform to go out of the modified sine wave mode. This is amazing and almost unique. The Trace is very different from some inverters, which put out a wide variety of glitchy waveforms on inductive loads (especially small ones). The Trace 1512 inverter powered inductive loads such as fluorescent lights, stereos, TVs, satellite TV systems, sewing machines, computers, and motors better and quieter than many other modified sine wave inverters. Our inductive AC equipment happily consumed the power made by the 1512. One very dramatic case was our computer equipment. This computer equipment has had problems with overheating when powered by other inverters. It ran much cooler on the 1512. The Trace inverter is among the most efficient types we have tested. The 1512 met Trace's specs for efficiency. The 1512 inverter produced noticeably less heat when powering large inductive loads. For example, we used a large 720 watt vacuum on the inverter. When powered by another inverter this vacuum began serious overheating after only 20 minutes of continuous usage. The inverter itself was also very warm. When the vacuum was run on the Trace 1512, neither it or the 1512 showed any appreciable heating after over 2 hours of continuous operation. The 1512 has excellent voltage regulation and is within Trace's specs. Regardless of load size, load type, temperature, and battery voltage, the 1512 did not vary over 2 volts (measured by us) in its AC output voltage. We tested the inverter on input voltages from 11 to 15.3 VDC. Temperature ranged from 10¡ C. to 40¡ C. Loads ranged from 25 watts resistive to 1.2 kW. inductive. Trace has really accomplished a great deal in the area of voltage regulation. Trace's digital approach to inverter design has produced an incredibly stable inverter. We were not able to measure any deviation from 60 cycles in all our testing. This is a big plus for anyone powering TV, video equipment, or audio equipment from an inverter. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3551) Wed 24 Jul 91 19:10 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ The 1512 met Trace's specs. for power output. We repeatedly tried to overload the Trace inverter, but we couldn't kill it. The 1512 protected itself from any damage due to overloading. We tried resistive and inductive loads up to 3kW, with starting surges over 10kW. In the past, inverters would not survive being so grossly overloaded. Battery Charger Operation The battery charger was a very pleasant surprise. Not only is it easily user programmable, but its range of operation is much greater than anything else available. The 70+ Ampere current output of the 1512's charger is nearly twice as powerful as any comparable unit. The battery charger's voltage output can be set high enough to fully recharge deep cycle batteries. The Trace 1512 is the only inverter/charger we've seen that can effectively cycle the batteries; it is unique. The Trace is the best for operation with a motorized generator. The 1512 will recharge the batteries faster than any other type of inverter/charger we've ever seen. This results in less generator operating time, and greater fuel economy. The programmable nature of the charger makes overcharging or too rapid charging of the batteries impossible. The 1512's current output was very constant over the entire recharging voltage range of our test batteries. Inverter to generator automatic changeover is smooth and positive. The Trace 1512 has the best built-in battery charger in the industry. On the down side... It was very difficult to find anything to complain about with the Trace 1512. The only feature we didn't like was the inverter's audio buzz. This audio noise is loud enough that the inverter should be located where no one will have to listen to it. A little noise is a very small matter in comparison with the inverter's many fine points. Conclusion The Trace 1512 is one of the finest modified sine wave inverter available. We found that it meets all of Trace's specifications. It is as far ahead of other inverters as a Corvette is from a Model T. The 1512 is the first inverter to combine digital technology with ease of use, efficiency, and sheer toughness. The list price of $1,310. (with optional charger) is in line with the 1512's superb performance. We are recommending the Trace 1512 as an excellent buy. You can get more info on the 1512 from Trace Engineering Inc., 5917 195th NE, Arlington, WA 98223, or phone 206-435-8826. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Originally published December 1987, Issue #1 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3552) Sun 21 Jul 91 9:40 By: Jim Dunmyer To: Tom Keller Re: re: Laptop 'puters St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:06bf 16f54d13@ MSGID: 1:234/100 288957b4 @CHARSET: PC-8 > > Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a > lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid > battery is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a > 12 volt ni-cad is actually 12 volts. > > *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more > than it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the > LCD display and its associated drivers. Check this out > pretty carefully before you fry your new toy! At least *some* laptops have a "12 volt power cord" available to plug into a vehicle's cigarette lighter socket. The voltage from that source will be from a bit over 12 volts to as high as 15 volts (engine running). One might assume that the laptop is capable of handling that variation. Matter of fact, if you measure the "AC adaptor" output voltage, you'll find that many aren't regulated *at the adaptor*, and are considerably higher than the nominal rating. One caveat: If you plug a laptop into a vehicle's lighter socket, turn it off and unplug it while you start the engine. The inductive kick-back from the starter motor and solenoid can put a very high-voltage spike on the system, and that could be very hard on your laptop. <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) @PATH: 234/100 1/211 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3553) Mon 22 Jul 91 17:50 By: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Home power magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:f0ea 16f68e5c@ MSGID: 1:234/100 288b1b39 @CHARSET: PC-8 Don, Where can I obtain this Home Power magazine? I've never seen it on the stand at B. Dalton, for instance... Thanks!! <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) @PATH: 234/100 1/211 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3554) Fri 26 Jul 91 11:25 By: Michael Favor To: Lou Schneider Re: Re: Real Goods St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:f9eb 16fa5b27 > Don, are you familiar with Real Goods Trading Co. in Ukiah? > They publish the Alternative Energy Sourcebook, a 400 > page manual that also doubles as a catalog for the products > they carry. It's $14, refundable with your first $100 i called them this morning and they said they would send me a free catalog. i dont know if it is the same as the 400 page manual that you mentioned. i probably would have paid the $14 for the book you mentioned, but the free catalog might be a good start for somebody who would not pay the $14. so for you free catalog seekers, that number again is: > > Real Goods Trading Co. ... > (707) 468-9214 thanks much for the info, lou! cheers, michael --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) @PATH: 119/4 911 203/53 125/10 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3555) Fri 26 Jul 91 11:31 By: Michael Favor To: Tom Keller Re: Re: Steam! St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:2fa9 16fa5bf1 > *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! > (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, > you know?) > What a surprise! I don't know if you remember, Tom, but we had some mutual friends for awhile about 15 years ago. I am still enjoying the book you gave me on the Discipline of Programming, by Dijkstra, and still consider buying rice in 100 pound bags, when possible. I just picked up this echo because I have a strong interest in generating electricity from solar powered steam, and I appreciated your examples of the power and flexibility of steam power. It's great to see a familiar name from long distance in an unexpected place on the net. If you want to chat about old times, you can netmail to me at 119/ 4, (pgp key available by file request as humanity.pub) or look me up in the phone book. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) @PATH: 119/4 911 203/53 125/10 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3556) Fri 26 Jul 91 12:23 By: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Steam Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:4b67 16fa62fb > I found the catalogs a few days back....Lindsay's > Publications (POB 583, Manteno IL 60950 (815)468-3668) I called this company, and the new number is 815-935-5353. Unfortunately, the steam power book is now out of print. > There are a couple sketchs > in the catalog of the Tesla turbine which have whetted > my curiousity. They look simple to make so after I get > the book one of the machinists at the lab and I will probably > build a small one to experiment with (using a bunch of > scrap 5.25" diameter aluminum disk platters for plates). I have been looking around in the library for several weeks now, but there seems to be a dearth of information about relatively small steam turbines. The closest thing I could find would be about $10,000, and require superheated steam to avoid erosion of the blades by condensate. The Tesla Bladeless Turbine sounds like just what I've been looking for! If it is that easy to build, it couldnt be too expensive. I am extremely interested in any further info you could possibly post here, or mail to me (pobox 4096 chico, ca 95927) or fax to me (916- 891-0502) or anything else you could think of. I would gladly pay postage/phone charges or whatever. From some articles I have read, apparently its not too hard to create a focusing reflector by stretching mylar into the propper shape using a small vacuum pump. A group of these collectors on on a framework not much larger than than average satalite tv dish (ie: backyard sized) could easily produce enough steam to drive a 10Kw generator, which is more than enough for the average household, with air-conditioner running. In the area where I live the utilility company (PGE) is required by law to purchase any extra electricity (up to 100Kw) at about $.04/Kwh, so a solar generator of this type might even find use in areas readily accessable to utility power, purely on economic grounds, considering the size of our monthly household power bill as an example case. Wouldn't it be nice to turn that bill into a check? michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) @PATH: 119/4 911 203/53 125/10 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3557) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:40 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex nozzles St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e3093d2 Interesting, a windmill could drive such a thing? And then the cold air gets used like in refrigerater? And the hot air,what do we do with it, pipe it to Sacromento to keep the Politicians going? (haha) but really, a windmill can run an air compressor, and compressed air can be put through a longish tube.. (I think) but then we have a wind powered refrigerater, and that can't really be practacle. Humm though what about doing it with a thicker fluid? Like water? Would it be possible to heat water (from a stream for example) as preheating hot water system? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3558) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:41 By: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: re: Home Power Magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309434 GB>At least I already have a start on a 12 volt system. I GB>already have a bank ofsix 12 volt deep cycle batteries tht i GB>use in my camper. I often am using the camper for 5-6 days GB>with no recharges so I want enough batteries when I am on the GB>road. It would not take much more to build a off grid system. GB> GB>--- ConfMail V3.31 GB> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 GB>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Good quality deep cycle batteries can easily be 1/2 the cost of an off grid system! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3559) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:47 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Laptop 'puters St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309570 Yeah you've probably got something there! Computer (and all) power supplies are not 100% efficient. For example, if we get 60% efficiency from a power supply we are doing reasonably well. In theory, 80% is achievable..So for 50 watts in (the hard drive you mentioned) only 25-30 gets to the drive. And that is probably regulated on board so that only 10-15 watts is actually used by the integrated circuits and motor. Running batteries (12 volt system) it seems possible to bypass all the DC to AC, AC inverter..etc. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3560) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:53 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Battle of the Currents St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e3096ec Cheering article Don, but as with almost everything, $$$ rules and the central power plant (and hydroelectric dams) that produce power some distance from users (in cities) requre High Voltage lines in order to transport the power, there is just no other way to do it Possibly roof solor cells if efficient, or something like that will come in someday but even so, in order to have enough power to run a sawmill (for example) a lot of power is needed and that means high voltage lines...because it is cheapest. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3561) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:54 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex Tubes St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e30972e It is an attractive idea... --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3562) Sat 27 Jul 91 22:59 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: System Review 1 of 4 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309854 Yeah, the inverter type system is really plug in compatible with lots of things..lights, tvs,..etc. and it is the least efficient system too. Even though the inverter may be state of the art and 95% efficient, the appliences designed to work from 120VAC are mostly power dissapaters. For example incadescent lights are really good space heaters. Flourescents are better but the ballest makes a lot of heat too. And refrigerators or washing machines...whew! Whereas 12 Volt appliences are designed (generally) to be powermisers--- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3563) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:03 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: System Review 4 of 4 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309954 In general it sounds like a generator system with a photovoltaic trickle charger on the batteries. That's all the 4 panels can really do for the batteries...but it costs gas to charage batteries and something like a 10 foot windmill in their location (mountains) would be a good investment, expecially if homemade! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3564) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:05 By: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: steam St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e3099ca * In a message originally to Don (and everyone), Tom Keller said: TK> This is *GREAT*!!! This is the sort of echo for which I TK>believe BBSing was intended!!!!!!!! TK> TK> I have become fascinated with the Tesla Bladeless Turbine. TK>I have several tentative projects in mind for such a machine. TK>I am having difficulty locating detailed information on this TK>technology. Can anyone assist? No but can you describe a bit of this Tesla Turbine please? sounds interesting..would it work in moving water or wind or is tempreture a necessary component? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3565) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:09 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Windpower 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309abe Might be worthy of mention, a good way to know how much wind a site receives is to look around, especially at nearby trees. Flagging or the absense of limbs from on side of (or several sides or) a tree are good indicaters of wind. For a typical pine or fir tree, 25% flagging means enough wind to put in a windmill.... --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3566) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:10 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Windpower 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309afe One more thing Don, and I ask because you have posted some expertise in this area...do you know of a method to get 60 Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3567) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:16 By: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: re: Laptop 'puters St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309c58 * In a message originally to Don Kulha, Tom Keller said: TK>Don, TK> TK> Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a TK>lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid battery TK>is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a 12 volt ni-cad TK>is actually 12 volts. TK> TK> *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more than TK>it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the LCD TK>display and its associated drivers. Check this out pretty TK>carefully before you fry your new toy! TK> TK>--- ConfMail V3.31 TK> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 TK>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) I think that's right! Lead-Acids can be as much as 15.5 Volts, depending on their design etc. And there is the potential to make a very simple 'power supply' from very few components for computer use I'm thinking of a three terminal, large transistor looking thing that accepts +12.2 to +18 on one leg, ground on another leg and puts out +12 volts DC on the third leg..these are darn cheap and there is probably one in most computers as a final regualtor (within the computer case). There is one for +12 and one for +5 in my C=64. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3568) Sat 27 Jul 91 23:25 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Trace Inverters 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e309e80 I've found the Heart Inverter (out of Washington State) to be very good. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3569) Sun 28 Jul 91 10:15 By: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: re: Home power magazine St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Don, > Where can I obtain this Home Power magazine? I've never > seen it on the stand at B. Dalton, for instance... > That's not too suprising. I know it does make it to some news stands but don't know where. The best way is to get a subscription which is quite reasonably priced; 6 bi-monthly issues yearly for $10 mailed 3rd class. Their address is: Home Power Magazine, POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044 (916)475-3179 voice phone. It is professionally printed, runs around 100 pages (8X11") and has been published since 1987. It is a tremendous asset for folks interested in small scale alternative energy systems and personal power production. The emhasis is on residence sized systems and hands-on engineering. No pie in the sky stuff here...just good practical information. I tend to rave some about this publication. I should say that the only connection I have with them is that they've served as inspiration, are rooting us on in this echo and have supplied us with the text from the first five issues (we'll get the stuff from issues 6-11 in a couple weeks when I see them at the Solar Expo and Rally). One reason I'm so "high" on them is that Home Power mag has kinda served as a "rallying point" for the small scale alternative energy movement. They give encouragment and PR to regional, national and international groups and events and are "real" and very dedicated folks. Check it out, I'm sure you'll be pleased....I subscribe and it's the best money I've ever spent on a subscription. You can't find the type of "real-world" info they publish anywhere else..... DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3570) Sun 28 Jul 91 10:34 By: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Re: Real Goods St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > i called them this morning and they said they would send me > a free catalog. i dont know if it is the same as the 400 > page manual that you mentioned. i probably would have paid > the $14 for the book you mentioned, but the free catalog > might be a good start for somebody who would not pay the > $14. so for you free catalog seekers, that number again is: > > Real Goods Trading Co. > > (707) 468-9214 Michael, I can tell ya that they put out a 3-4x yearly catalog that definitly isn't the large sourcebook they sell for $14 (refundable with order). The big volume lists a lot more stuff and is about 50% good in depth information about AE . You'll find the catalog you're getting fascinating and after reading it will most likely want the larger volume. Getting the free catalog is an excellent move though....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3571) Sun 28 Jul 91 10:50 By: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Re: Steam Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The Tesla Bladeless Turbine sounds like just what I've been > looking for! If it is that easy to build, it couldnt be too > expensive. I am extremely interested in any further info > you could possibly post here, or mail to me (pobox 4096 > chico, ca 95927) or fax to me (916- 891-0502) or anything > else you could think of. I would gladly pay postage/phone > charges or whatever. > The turbine might be what you're looking for after all. First off I'm going to build a small working model to initally be powered by compressed air for testing purposes. I'll post info on it here in a month or so after we do the engineering study (don't want to blow this thing up by over-reving it...aluminum rotors may not work). We're going to analyze it's efficency pretty carefully and luckily I have some high powered engineers interested in this who will be modeling this for me. I don't know that condensate will be a problem beyond normal oxidation...they use these things as pumps commercially. My most likely problem will be keeping the rotor disks together at 30k/rpm and keeping bearings in it. I may need to make some hardened stainless steel disks and get special bearings and lubricants. Will keep you posted... > to create a focusing reflector by stretching mylar into the > propper shape using a small vacuum pump. A group of these > collectors on on a framework not much larger than than > average satalite tv dish (ie: backyard sized) could easily > produce enough steam to drive a 10Kw generator, which is > more than enough for the average household, with > air-conditioner running. In the area where I live the > utilility company (PGE) is required by law to purchase any > extra electricity (up to 100Kw) at about $.04/Kwh, so a > solar generator of this type might even find use in areas > readily accessable to utility power, purely on economic > grounds, considering the size of our monthly household power > bill as an example case. Wouldn't it be nice to turn that > bill into a check? > Yes, it's truely amazing how much energy actually falls on the surface of the earth courtesy of the sun. My project has two power sources in mind...wood and solar (I want something besides solar for when the sun doesn't shine as backup). I think that steam generation is going to be a lot stickier for me than building the turbine but then it's a well known technology which just requires a bit of reserch on my part. I'm with you though...it would be beautiful to generate electricity using sunlight, water and some mechanical bits. I have a pile or aluminum sheets that got a special thin film coating to make them 99% reflective in the visual wavelegnth EM range which I plan to play with in addition to trying freznel lens as a concentrator. A few years back I was experimenting with a solar air heater which I used some of these in. To keep this short I screwed up and used wood as the back and part of the framing. Some of these panels were added as "wings" to concentrate a bit more energy on the collector itself. I finished it late one eve and went to bed. The next morning I found the prototype collector where I'd left it on the lawn with smoke pouring out of the exhaust ports! I judged my solar collection experiment a sucess but never had a way to apply it to the rented house I lived in. Then I built a curved wood framework, put some of these thin aluminum reflectors on it and placed a 15 gallon drum (painted with a selective black coating) in front of it. Got the water up to a simmer in spite of the very crude hack that it was. Yep, there's definitly enough energy incoming to make some steam! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3572) Sun 28 Jul 91 11:31 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: re: Vortex nozzles St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:40:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Vortex nozzles > Interesting, a windmill could drive such a thing? > And then the cold air gets used like in refrigerater? And Well, I've yet to build anything but am dying to try it out. I know that the nozzles do work and just yesterday I saw a lot of windmills (old fashioned types) which I know were used for pumping water. I'd assume if you can use one to pump water you could use one to run a small compressor. If the cold output side of the nozzle were plumbed into an old refridgerator's cooling coils I would think that the -30 deg. F cold air would have to cool it down. The caveat is that these nozzles are not very efficient in the usual sense if one had to generate electricity or burn fuel to operate a compressor but if one had sufficent wind, hydro or steam power for the compressor it MIGHT be practical. It would be great to get away from using freon in our refridgeration systems (air conditioners/refridgerators) which is rapidly destroying the ozone layer above us. As mentioned before I was just musing on the possibilities but I sure hope to get a chance to try this out! > the hot air,what do we do with it, pipe it to Sacromento to > keep the Politicians going? (haha) but really, a windmill > can run an air compressor, and compressed air can be put > through a longish tube.. > (I think) but then we have a wind powered refrigerater, and > that can't really be practacle. Humm though what about > doing it with a thicker fluid? Like water? Would it be > possible to heat water (from a stream for example) as > preheating hot water system? > --- The hot air output side of the nozzle could have many applications. It could be used for heating water or to help drying produce (fruits/veggies/jerky). I seem to recall the hot side temp as being at about 170 deg. F which would be a shame to waste. As to using water, well, I don't know if the nozzle system could be re-engineered to use it. However if one were to exhaust either side of the nozzle into the bottom of a water tank the heat/cold is going to be transfered to the fluid as it rises through it. I was concentrating more on the cold side of the equation since solar heat seems very easy to do and I am worried about the CFC/atmosphere problems. As to whether any of it is practical...hopefully I'll find out! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3573) Sun 28 Jul 91 11:59 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: re: Battle of the Currents St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:53:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Cheering article Don, but as with almost everything, $$$ > rules and the central power plant (and hydroelectric dams) > that produce power some distance from users (in cities) > requre High Voltage lines in order to transport the power, > there is just no other way to do it Possibly roof solor > cells if efficient, or something like that will come in > someday but even so, in order to have enough power to run a > sawmill (for example) a lot of power is needed and that > means high voltage lines...because it is cheapest. > --- I can appreciate your point there and am quite aware of Ohm's law and it's implications...one needs a lot more conductor to move the same amount of energy through it at low voltage (thinking in terms of Pressure) than at higher voltage. I also know about the benefits of AC for moving power long distances. Still the article I quoted did point out the usefulness and some good points of using low voltage DC at the point of power production. Now if one needed 200 KW of electrical power it would be a little difficult to do that onsite with photovoltaics for an industrial plant, especially if it ran 24 hours a day. Big utility hydro would be cheaper and maybe more practical. No, I think that the article and most of the discussion here relates to personal power production and small scale sytems...most of which would be on the order of 5-10kw a day or less. Good point though. Now if TI's new "bubble cells" prove practical and the cost per watt of produced power can be gotten down to a dollar a watt or less (currently at around $6 a watt) for an installed system then maybe we'll see solar being used a lot more for non-remote systems. For a lot of folks paying $20,000 just to get power to their homesite makes solar and other alternative technologies very attractive. At least now solar is far cheaper than atomic power which (hopefully) will turn that technology into a dinosaur....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3574) Sun 28 Jul 91 12:21 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: re: System Review 1 of 4 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:59:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: System Review 1 of 4 > Yeah, the inverter type system is really plug in compatible > with lots of things..lights, tvs,..etc. and it is the least > efficient system too. Even though the inverter may be state > of the art and 95% efficient, the appliences designed to > work from 120VAC are mostly power dissapaters. For example > incadescent lights are really good space heaters. > Flourescents are better but the ballest makes a lot of heat > too. And refrigerators or washing machines...whew! Whereas > 12 Volt appliences are designed (generally) to be powermisers > --- Well put sir! Luckily there are some folks/companies out there making extremely efficient and misery refridgerator and washers. Home power mag had an excellent article on retrofitting washing machines to use up to 70% less energy without reducing performance. Hopefully I'll get that article soon to post here. Sunfrost in Arcata makes some extremely efficient refridgerators available in 12vdc, gas fired and 110vac models. I think that super insulation and mounting of the motors and compressors on top of the cold box as opposed to underneath it (heat rises) along with very efficient motors make the difference. Of course they are pretty pricey too (2-3X "normal" prices) but if one is producing their own power which is pretty pricey itself the super efficient appliances can make of ton of sense even at elevated prices. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some good hard data to post here....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3575) Sun 28 Jul 91 12:36 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: re: System Review 4 of 4 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 23:03:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: System Review 4 of 4 > In general it sounds like a generator system with a > photovoltaic trickle charger on the batteries. That's all > the 4 panels can really do for the batteries...but it costs > gas to charage batteries and something like a 10 foot > windmill in their location (mountains) would be a good > investment, expecially if homemade! > --- I don't recall the article well right now but 4-50 watt PV panels doesn't sound like a lot. It depends on what you're using though. I dug out my Real Goods AE sourcebook and it tells me that while a normal refridgerator uses about 3000 watts per day to run a 12vdc Sunfrost 12 cu. foot model only uses 350 watts! Assuming the folks quoted in the article have 4 50 watt panels that produce power for an average of 5 hours a day thats about 1000 watts. Three times what the refridgerator uses leaving about 600 watts. You can run a lot of 15 watt lights off that, a 12v Color TV VCR (12vdc-about 70 watts with the tape running), radios, sewing machines, etc. You really can do an amazing amount with small amounts of power with efficient appliances, especially when you adopt a new mind-set because you've gotta produce the power yourself. I'd never dream of using a 1500 watt waterbed heater if I had to make the power myself, nor would I burn 230 watts an hour to run this BBS 24 hours a day. I'm still on the grid but I want off bad...the BBS is going to go on a crash energy diet shortly! (and now I know what do do with those old 65watt IBM PC power supplys I've been replacing with 150's for folks!). With a good battery bank you can run an energy deficit for sometime before having to fire up the generator. If you have a 350 amp hour 12volt battery bank thats 3500 watts (derated 20% per normal). If your energy shortfall is 350 watts/day over what your AE source is and you only cycle the battery bank down to a 50% charge (a good number) you could run 5 days before firing the generator up for an hour or two (say while running the washer to wash clothes) to top off the batterys. One of the nice things about PV panels is that they are modular...you can add them as needed (providing that the pocket book can afford them...a 50 watt PV panel usually runs around $330 bucks)...Most folks size their PV arrays a bit small and plan on charging (generators are cheap) when they need to run a heavy load (table saws, planners, welders) that they need the generator for anyway.....DCK P.S.-And yes, the idea of burning gasoline to power my home bugs me too. That's why I'm so interested in steam engines (either wood or solar powered) right now. I'll no doubt keep a gas generator around when I get off the grid (as a last gasp backup) but I'm sure gonna try to obsolete that sucker! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3576) Sun 28 Jul 91 14:13 By: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: battery pack St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ You refered to L-16 batteries. What are they? the batteries I have are plain old lead-acid deep cycle size 27 batteries parralell conected for 12 volts, nominal. I charge them off the tow vehicle alternator and occaisionaly run a complete discharge/recharge cycle or two. Makes a big difference in usable charge. When I run the cycle, I am at home and use a 110 charger. I am a ways from Sonoma county !!! I live near Custer, South Dakota, which is in the Black Hills of western South Dakota. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3577) Sun 28 Jul 91 21:19 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Wind/AC St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 23:10:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > One more thing Don, and I ask because you have posted some > expertise in this area...do you know of a method to get 60 > Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? > --- Me? expertise? Naw.....I'm a relative newcomer to the AE field myself (but I'm darn good at research and engineering). I have read references to wind generators directly supplying 120vac but don't have any info handy. Usually folks run their wind generators at 12 or 24 volts to charge battery banks and invert it back up to 120vac which gives you the benefit of stored power when the wind isn't blowing. I have read of folks inverting the power at the tower site to AC to cut transmission losses and allow them to use a smaller gauge wire to move higher voltage up to the site of their main system/battery banks. I think you almost have to have batteries in the loop somewhere for a practical system. I believe the folks at Bergy Windpower are the acknowledged experts in the field and claim to have sold more wind power systems in the 1-10kw range during the past decade than anyone else in the world. They are located at 2001 Priestly Ave., Norman OK 73069, (405)364-4212 (voice) or (405)364-2078 (fax). My area of expertise relates to extra-terrestial solar cell cover applications...not too similar to the type of AE we're usually speaking of here. Just to be upfront I am an alternative energy enthusiast and have been studying the field for about 10 years and have done some experimentation. I can usually dig into my reference materials and come up with useful info for folks but always defer to the folks in the industry with extensive real-world experience when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of system integration. Glad I can be of some help though when possible.....DCK P.S.-The "expertise" of which you speak was probably that of the articles author....The folks at Home Power mag generously sent us the text of many of their articles to post here. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3578) Sun 28 Jul 91 21:52 By: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: L-16's St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gale, the l-16's that Terry refers to is a somewhat "generic" reference to a particular size/output and form-factor of battery commonly purchased from the Interstate Battery company or the Trojan Battery Company in San Francisco. They are a very robust heavy duty battery intended for deep-cycling service, come as 6 volt, 350 amp/hr units. They measure about 12" long X 7" wide X 16" tall, are ungodly heavy and cost around $175 each. They can last up to 7-10 years given proper care and no discharged too deeply (say 50% or so). They're very popular and give good service in AE applications. Your group 27 batteries probably aren't going to hold up too long my friend. Even the so called "deep cycle" group 27's are usually not up to the rigors of AE system use unless you cycle them very shallowly. Interstate makes a group 27 (#27-SRM) that puts out 95 amp/hours and will probably last 3-5 years. Next time you need batteries consider the L-16's, they seem to be the best bang for the buck as far as I can tell....DCK P.S.-Forgot to mention (though ya probably figured it out) that one wires 2 L-16's in series to get 12 volts and more pairs in parallel to up the amp hour capacity. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3579) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:18 By: Gale Barrows To: Don Kulha Re: re: L-16's St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ The batteries I have are Interstate 27 type and have given me good service for about 4 years now. I do not pull them down too heavily and about every 5-6 months I put a load on them and draw them down completly and then recharge. It takes about 7-8 days to run them down and recharge at least twice. This was the interstate rep's suggestion for lopngest battery life at meximum storagew capacity. He said they have to be completly cycled just like a ni-cad. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3580) Mon 29 Jul 91 10:26 By: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Re: Steam! St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Michael, You will have to tell me which city you are in if I am to look you up in the phone book. I have no access to private netmail. tom --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3581) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:48 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters 1 of 5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Inverters by Richard Perez // The modern power inverter has revolutionized the usage of battery stored electrical power. An inverter changes the low voltage DC energy of the batteries into 120/240 volt, 60 cycle, AC housepower. Just like the energy available downtown. The idea here is to use the battery stored energy in regular household appliances. The low voltage DC supplied by the batteries will not run standard consumer appliances, which accept only 60 cycle, 120/240 volt, AC power. Until the advent of modern inverters, battery people had to content themselves with 12 VDC appliances. These are specialized and very expensive. In many cases there are no 12 VDC appliances made for a particular job. The inverter has changed this; now battery users can run just about any standard commercial appliance. In practical terms, the inverter allows us to run electric drills, power saws, computers, printers, vacuum cleaners, lighting, food processors, and most electrical appliances that can be plugged into the wall. If the battery/inverter system is big enough, then large appliances such as freezers, refrigerators, deep well pumps, and washing machines can be accommodated. All these standard 120/240 volt AC appliances can be powered from the batteries by using the appropriate inverter. The inverter draws its energy from the batteries, it does not require any other power source. Inverter operation is quiet and its power is available 24 hours a day, whenever it is needed. The addition of an inverter to a motorized system greatly improves the system efficiency. Power costs can be cut to 25 cents on the dollar by using an inverter instead of constant generator-only operation. The generator can be run for only several hours per week, but the inverter's 120/240 VAC power is constantly available. It is simply not efficient to run a large generator for a few lights and maybe a stereo. The generator is used to recharge the batteries, and to power large intermittent loads. This approach results in the generator being run more heavily loaded, where it is much more efficient. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3582) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:50 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters, 2 of 5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Different Types of Inverters Inverters are manufactured in 3 basic types. These types are named for the kind of power they produce. The question is, "How close does the inverter come to reproducing the waveform of standard commercial power?" There are trade-offs involved in inverter design. The more closely the inverter replicates commercial sinusoidal power, the less efficient the inverter becomes. This is a sad, but true, fact of physics. As the primary power source, efficiency is a very important factor in inverter operation. When we consider running large appliances such as freezers and washing machines on battery stored power, even small percentages of wasted energy are not acceptable. Battery stored energy is simply too expensive to waste. Square Wave Of all types of inverters, the square wave inverter produces power that least resembles commercial power. This inverter is the cheapest type to buy. It will not run many appliances which require cleaner forms of power. Stereos, televisions, computers, and other precision electronics will not accept square wave power. The power produced by square wave inverters varies considerably with the voltage changes of the batteries as they are discharged. These inverters are designed to be inexpensive, and as such their efficiency is low, less than 70% when fully loaded. If the square wave inverter is only partially loaded, its efficiency drops to less than 30%. These inverter cost about $0.50 per watt and are available in sizes up to 1,000 watts. The square wave inverter is not suitable for homestead usage. It is neither efficient or versatile enough. Modified Square Wave The modified sine wave inverter represents a compromise between efficiency and utility. The modified sine wave inverter is the best type to use in home power service. This type of inverter is capable of powering almost all commercial electrical appliances, even very delicate electronics such as computers. The power this inverter produces is not identical to commercial power, but it is close enough to fool almost all appliances. The efficiency of the modified sine wave inverter is the highest of all types of inverters, in some cases consistently over 90%. For example, we use a 1,500 Watt Trace Inverter. This inverter is over 90% efficient at power output levels between 100 and 600 watts. Its no load power consumption is less than 1 watt. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3583) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:50 By: Don Kulha To: all Re: Inverters, 3 of 5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ We leave it on all the time, ready for instant service. We have yet to use an appliance that will not accept its modified sine wave power. The inverter is fully protected against overloading. It even contains a circuit that prevents overdischarging of the batteries. The output power of the Trace inverter is very clean, far cleaner and more dependable than commercially produced electricity. These inverters are also available with built-in battery chargers. The battery charger senses when you have turned on the AC powerplant and recharges the batteries. It also automatically transfers the household to generator produced power, and returns the household to inverter power when the motorized powerplant stops. cost of modified sine wave inverters is about $1.00 to $1.50 per watt. This type of inverter is available with output wattages between 300 and 25,000 watts. In most cases, the inverter is capable of surge wattages about 3 times its rated output wattage. Many of the larger modified sine wave inverters have outputs of both 120 and 240 volts AC. This surge capability is very important when powering large motor driven appliances such as refrigerators, washing machines, and deep well pumps. Sine Wave Inverters The sine wave inverter exactly duplicates the sinusoidal waveform of commercially produced power. It accomplishes this at the expensive of efficiency. The sine wave inverter is necessary only for very delicate electronics. These inverters are usually sold to hospitals, airports, and government installations. They are the only ones who can afford to buy them and run them. Efficiency for sine wave inverters is less than 60% at optimum loading. At light and heavy loads the efficiency drops to less than 30%. These inverters are expensive, around $2.50 per watt. The sine wave inverter is not suitable for homestead power, it is too expensive and inefficient. Inverter Sizing Modern power inverters are available in many sizes. The process of determining the right size for a particular homestead can be confusing. The process is really simple-- just make a survey of all the appliances you wish to run from inverter supplied power. List each appliance, its rated wattage, and the number of hours per day that the appliance will be operational. It is best to allow each person in the household the usage of a light-- one person,one light. We seem to average about five hours of lighting per day. If this estimation process is to be effective all appliances must be included, be realistic. Be sure to allow some margin for future expansion. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3584) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:51 By: Don Kulha To: all Re: Inverters 4 of 5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Average Consumption Put a star beside all appliances that are required to operate at the same time. Include in this starred list all appliances with automatic controls, for example refrigerators and freezers. Add the total wattage of all the appliances on the starred list. This wattage figure is the smallest amount of power that will do the job. The inverter must be sized larger than this figure if the system is to work as planned. If the inverter is undersized, it may shut itself off due to overloading and leave you in the dark. The wattage of each appliance multiplied by the number of hours per day it is operational gives an estimate of energy consumption in watt-hours per day. This figure is used to determine the capacity of the battery pack necessary to do the job. Surge Consumption Appliances which use electric motors require more power to start themselves than they require to run. This high starting power consumption is called starting surge. Many motorized appliances require over 3 times as much power to start than to run. These starting surges must be considered in sizing the inverter's wattage. If these surges are not allowed for then the refrigerator starting up may overload the already loaded inverter and shut it off. Most power inverters worth having are capable of delivering 3 to 5 times their rated wattage for surges. If there are several large motors in the system that may start themselves, then the situation becomes more complex. For example, consider a system where both the deep well pump and a refrigerator are being used. Both the pump and the refrigerator may turn themselves on at the same time. The resulting surge demand may be high enough to shut down the inverter. It is best to assume that all appliances on automatic control are starting at the same time. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3585) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:52 By: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters 5 of 5 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Add their surge wattages and be sure this figure is less than the surge capability of the inverter being considered. Inverter Wiring The inverter's output should be wired into the house's main distribution panel. A quick reference to books on house wiring will aid you in getting the power into the house with low loss and safety. Remember that all the power being used in the house is traveling through these connections-- use big wire (6 to 2 gauge) and low loss connections. AC Wiring One of the major attractions of inverter produced power is that it is at normal 120/240 voltages. This is very important when placing older homes on alternative energy. The wiring within the walls is designed for 120 volt operation. It has too much power loss to be used with low voltage DC energy directly from the battery. The wiring, switches, outlets, and all their interconnections have too much resistance to efficiently transfer the batteries' energy directly. DC Wiring- Battery to Inverter Connection The wiring that supplies the energy from the battery to the inverter is of critical importance and deserves special attention. These wires must be capable of transferring over 200 amperes of current efficiently. This means that the wiring must have very low resistance-- use 0 to 000 gauge copper wire. Keep the length of these heavy gauge wires to an absolute minimum. Most inverters are located within five feet of their batteries. The actual connections on the battery terminals are subject to corrosion. It is common practice to use battery cables from automobiles. These cables have ring connectors mechanically crimped to their ends. The sulphuric acid in the batteries eventually corrodes the mechanical connection between the actual wire and its ring connector. If a more permanent connection is desired, make your own connectors by soldering copper tubing over the ends of the heavy wires. Flatten this assembly and drill the appropriate hole in it. This soldered connector is vastly superior to any other type. These heavy wire sets with soldered connectors are available commercially from the Electron Connection Ltd., P. O. Box 442, Medford, Oregon, 97501. Next month we will discuss in detail the specifics of inverter sizing. Tune in and find out the inverter size that best fits your individual Courtesy of and copyright by Home Power Magazine Initially published in Issue #1, December 1987 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3586) Mon 29 Jul 91 15:32 By: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Steam Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Don, Not having read more than the info file on the Tesla turbines, I am not certain, but from what I read, the Tesla turbine is NOT a high speed turbine. Also, I don't think that testing it with compressed air is going to give you much in the way of meaningful data, as the performance with steam will be considerably different. Would be interested in participating more directly in your expreimentations. Gimme a jingle, ok? Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3587) Mon 29 Jul 91 16:51 By: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Re: Steam Power St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 15:32:28 > From: Tom Keller > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Re: Steam Power > > Not having read more than the info file on the Tesla > turbines, I am not certain, but from what I read, the Tesla > turbine is NOT a high speed turbine. Also, I don't think > that testing it with compressed air is going to give you > much in the way of meaningful data, as the performance with > steam will be considerably different. > > Would be interested in participating more directly in > your expreimentations. Gimme a jingle, ok? > I'm not sure about speeds myself other than knowing that the moving steam or air column in the turbine takes a longer path the higher the RPM goes increasing the efficency. I have heard that some of Tesla's turbines were spun up to the neighborhood of 80,000 RPM (at which point I believe it exploded). One of the engineers at the lab has been doing some calcs for me and it seems that at about 3,600 RPM the aluminum rotors I was considering using would explode (6" dia.). I'll probably be going to a hardenable grade of stainless steel for the experimental model's rotors. I believe that the turbine would work far better on steam than compressed air but since air is easier for me to get it will be the first phase test medium. At that point if it shows any promise at all I'll try the next phase on steam power. Initally I'll be contacting a retired steam buff from the lab to use his rig and later consider building or buying a boiler set-up. I appreciate the point you made about about fuels and pollution. My root interest in this project isn't the turbine although I do find the idea and the simplicity of it beautiful. My primary goal is to create a solar powered boiler to drive an engine to make electrical power with a minimum of pollution. I may end up not using the turbine at all and am researching piston style steam engines in parallel with the turbine project. I want to make energy with an absolute minimum of pollution so that I'll have a backup source of energy to PV's, wind or Hydro when I make my move off the grid. If the solar heated boiler proves practical (and I have every reason to believe it will) I would still have a wood-fired boiler in tandem with the solar powered one. One of the reasons folks living off-grid often have gas-fired generators is that sometimes there isn't enough solar, wind, or hydro power available to charge the batteries. Proper system design should minimize the need for carbon-dioxide producing power generation. It's definitly one of my goals here but if I have to fallback on burning wood a couple times a year I won't feel too bad. I'd probably have a gas fired generator too in mothballs (on the off chance an emergency came up and it was needed). Since we're on the subject of pollution here I'll ramble for a moment. A part of my "dream" AE system entails having a small "uphill" pond to act as sort of a battery in conjunction with "micro" or "nano" hydro power. Wind or steam power might be an excellent way to pump water uphill into a pond without first converting the energy into electricity. Then, given enough head to create water pressure and a small hydro generator or alternator I'd have clean power on demand. Wind and hydro are a lot cleaner in terms of their overall enviornmental impact as opposed to photovoltaics. Having an aqueous "battery" of sorts would also minimize the size of the battery bank one would need for their rural homesite...and most batteries contain some toxics we'd do best to minimize the use of. Even considering the negative impact of PV's and/or batteries and/or burning wood to fire a boiler they've got to be far lesser impacts than another Rancho Seco or Three-Mile Island atomic plant.....DCK P.S.-Will keep your kind offer of assistance in mind Tom. May need assistance when I get around to the steam plant phase of the project assuming I get that far (...which is likely...). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3588) Tue 30 Jul 91 0:30 By: Lou Schneider To: Terry Olsen Re: re: Windpower 3 of 3 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ...do you know of a method to get 60 Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? I've never tried this, but if you excite the field of a commutator-type DC generator with an AC signal, you should get an AC output that's locked to the excitation signal, not the rotational speed. Voltage would be controlled in the normal manner, varying the excitation voltage to control the output voltage, just like a DC generator. I can think of several possibilities - use a small inverter to excite the generator and get large quantities of stable AC whenever the wind blows. Or use a sample from the PG&E grid and your wind generator will be phase locked to PG&E (I think this is how commercial wind generators feed back into the grid). Or if you're using steam or hydro to power the generator run the turbine at the most efficient speed for the load that's on it, and vary the field to control the output. You wouldn't have to keep the speed at a constant 1800 or 3600 RPM. One disadvantage would be the maintenance of the commutator and brushes. Of course, to minimize brush wear you could apply the excitation to the armature and take the output from the stator coils. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3589) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:30 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: re: Vortex nozzles St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e325384 Well the hot side could do some work preheating water as you have already said...the cold side doing refrigeration (sp . . I just woke up). sound good, now what kind of constant source of power can we modulate to produce refrigiration cooling when we want it? Hydro or Hydro-electric would be ideal..and wind is too iffy. I have wind here, the tree flagging says about 10+ miles per hour per, averaged for the year..but not all the time! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3590) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:35 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: re: Battle of the Currents St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e3254a8 Yeah, for $20,000 a person can have a real power system, using batteries, hydor-electric (1 KW wheel) and 2.5 KW inverter. So if a person has a good source of water it would pay off in 20 years! As for gettin rid of nucelar..well there are uses for nuclear we haven't done much with yet, especially spacecraft..No the two sources that I feel may become worth a great deal (I've been wrong before) are 1.dirct solor to electricity energy. And 2. a beamed power system. colleltors in space. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3591) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:38 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Miser appliences St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e325576 I agree..refrigeraters are an excellent case in point for power misers compared to our standard method, our standard refrigeraters! Whew, the heat producer at the bottem of the 'frigde and the coils reducing their own efficiency because the heat is trapped by the hot air surrounding the cooling coils! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3592) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:43 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: re: System Review 4 of 4 St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e32567e As a point of interest..I helped a guy install a system which ran his refrigerator, all the lights he wanted, and his table saw (11 Amp inductive motor), and the rest of his shop. The inverter was 2.5 KW (Heart) and power source was a water wheel producing about well a bit less than 1 KW, 24 hours a day. 4each 300 amp-hour batteries.(golf cart type). Great system..we adjusted his voltage a bit high at the inverter to get the saw to start! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3593) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:50 By: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: battery pack St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e325848 GB>You refered to L-16 batteries. What are they? the batteries I L-16 batteries are 300 amp-hour 6 volt batteries that must be connected in series to produce 12 volts. They were, 5 years ago when I was active in the industry, the last word in good deep-cycle batteries, designed from the begining to stand stationary and be deep-cycled. Not quite up to your knee from the floor, not quite from your elbow to your wrist deep and a hand-span across. Real good batteries! GB>have are plain old lead-acid deep cycle size 27 batteries GB>parralell conected for 12 volts, nominal. I charge them off I don't know the 27 batteries... GB>the tow vehicle alternator and occaisionaly run a complete GB>discharge/recharge cycle or two. Makes a big difference in GB>usable charge. When I run the cycle, I am at home and use a Sounds like you know your batteries!! GB>110 charger. GB> I am a ways from Sonoma county !!! I live near Custer, GB>South Dakota, which is in the Black Hills of western South GB>Dakota. I am in Humboldt County. What do the Black Hills look like? Gentle rolling hills, high snowy crags? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3594) Mon 29 Jul 91 6:52 By: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Wind/AC St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @PID: QE 2.75 b9 & RA 1.01 2306@ MSGID: 1:125/12 4e3258ca If you run into anything of how to get 120VAC at 60 cycles...would you mention it on the echo here please? Problems, problems...grumble.. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) @PATH: 125/12 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3595) Mon 29 Jul 91 12:06 By: Michael Favor To: all Re: following message reposted... St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:dd94 16fd60d4 i have been informed that there were some severe but temporary problems with the backbone crosslinking some echos, but that it has been fixed now. i feel strongly enough about one of the three messages that i posted during this period to warrant reposting it in order to make sure that it was not one of the messages that was misdirected. my appologies if the following message is redundant. cheers, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) @PATH: 119/4 911 203/53 125/10 7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3596) Tue 30 Jul 91 13:36 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Refridgeration St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:30:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Well the hot side could do some work preheating water as you > have already said...the cold side doing refrigeration (sp . > . I just woke up). sound good, now what kind of constant > source of power can we modulate to produce refrigiration > cooling when we want it? Hydro or Hydro-electric would be > ideal..and wind is too iffy. I have wind here, the tree > flagging says about 10+ miles per hour per, averaged for the > year..but not all the time! > --- I don't know that one would have to have constant power. In terms of a retrofit of existing commercial refridgerators it may not be practical but I had thermal mass or phase-change materials in mind. The vortex nozzles put out cold air at a max cool temp of -30 deg. F which, given enough run time often enough could freeze something like that liquid filled plastic blocks they have in some ice chests. Then too maybe you use the wind power to pump water into an uphill pond or tank and use the fall and water volume to turn a pelton wheel to turn an air compressor pump....there are possibilities....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3597) Tue 30 Jul 91 22:16 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Atomic Energy St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:35:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Yeah, for $20,000 a person can have a real power system, > using batteries, hydor-electric (1 KW wheel) and 2.5 KW > inverter. > So if a person has a good source of water it would pay off > in 20 years! > As for gettin rid of nucelar..well there are uses for > nuclear we haven't done much with yet, especially > spacecraft..No the two sources that I feel may become worth > a great deal (I've been wrong before) are 1.dirct solor to > electricity energy. And 2. a beamed power system. > colleltors in space. > --- I believe that PG&E, the utility in my area, wants something like $30,000 dollars a mile to run residence power lines. That's only a rough guesstimate based on what I *think* I recall reading. That's to say that before you can consume watt #1 at your rural homesite you may be paying that much for PG&E to put in the lines, then you have the priviledge of paying $.10-.14 per KW for all the power you use. If you're reasonably frugal with power you can have an independant power system for a lot less and never have to pay the utility after that. At our latitude, 20-50 watt PV panels will produce about 4500 watts per day on average (more in summer, less in winter). They'd cost you about $6000. Say another $7k for trackers, inverters, controllers, cable, batteries, an efficient Sun Frost 'fridge and a small generator. With the right gear and reasonable consumption you could live like a king on 4.5kw a day. My point is that the payback *could* be a lot sooner than 20 years....if you had to pay a hefty fee up front for power lines. Somehow I just don't think us educated monkeys are ready to mess with nuclear power yet. Maybe if we absolutely, positively HAD to in order to assure our survival it would be okay. I'm all for space exploration and believe we will use nuclear for that someday but it gives me the willies to think of a shuttle filled with radioactives blowing up like the Challenger. I like what Stewart Brand had to say (courtesy of the Real Goods Sourcebook): "Radiation leaks are caused by fools like me, but only God can build a nuclear reactor 93 million miles from the nearest elementry school". As for beamed power collected in space...why bother? It's gonna make it here on it's own anyway! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3598) Tue 30 Jul 91 23:01 By: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: re: following message reposted... St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 12:06:41 > From: Michael Favor > To: all > i have been informed that there were some severe but > temporary problems with the backbone crosslinking some > echos, but that it has been fixed now. > > i feel strongly enough about one of the three messages that > i posted during this period to warrant reposting it in order > to make sure that it was not one of the messages that was > misdirected. my appologies if the following message is > redundant. > Funny thing is your "reposted messages" seem to be absent, but we received 3 messages from you posted on June 26th just fine...Anyway, I guess that makes it a "wash" and we're in good shape!....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3599) Tue 30 Jul 91 23:07 By: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Table Saws.... St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:43:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > As a point of interest..I helped a guy install a system > which ran his refrigerator, all the lights he wanted, and > his table saw (11 Amp inductive motor), and the rest of his > shop. The inverter was 2.5 KW (Heart) and power source was > a water wheel producing about well a bit less than 1 KW, 24 > hours a day. 4each 300 amp-hour batteries.(golf cart type). > Great system..we adjusted his voltage a bit high at the > inverter to get the saw to start! > --- Love that Hydropower. Nice clean versatile stuff. Interesting system too. I seem to recall reading about a fellow with a rural cabinet shop who'd replaced the motor in his table and radial arm saws with permanent magnet 12vdc motors. I don't think I have the info anymore more but I'll dig some. Perhaps a person knowledgeable in the ways of PMag dc motors will enlighten us all. It would take some monster cable to deliver 140 amps @ 12vdc to the saws though. The inverted approach sounds much simpler....Thanks! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) @PATH: 125/7 151/1000 1003 223 ------------------------------------------------------------------ (3602) Wed 31 Jul 91 20:02 By: Lawrence London To: Don Kulha Re: Updates St: Sent ------------------------------------------------------------------ @MSGID: 1:151/502 7f94029a > I'd appreciate a note periodically if/when you add feeds > to this echo so I can publish a master access list in the > various related echos so folks know where they can link in. > Many Thanks! > Don Kulha/Moderator @ 125/7 > > --- ConfMail V3.31 > * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 > (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) > Receiving HOMEPOWR here at 151/502 in Chapel Hill, N.C., home of SUST_AG. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------ (4210) Thu 1 Aug 91 14:15 By: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: POWER echo St: ------------------------------------------------------------------ @MSGID: 1:151/502 808e414a * Forwarded from "Echo Request" * Originally from Tom Rieger * Originally dated 07-31-91 20:41 Announcing: The formation of the POWER conference. A FidoNet echo for the operators/maintainers of power, steam and refrigeration plants. Moderated by Tom Rieger, a stationary engineer with with working experience on nuclear and conventional naval propulsion plants, oil, gas and solid fuel steam generation plants and ammonia refrigeration systems. Topics to include (but not limited to) plant safety, plant operations, plant maintenance, innovations, co-generation, solid fuel firing, ash handling, water treatment, emissions reduction, problem solving... Anything you can think of which is related to the power/refrigeration industry. Private topology until I can take it regional and eventually place it on the backbone. NetMail link-up requests to 1:260/242. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502)