More Delco Tips Dear Home Power, As a long time advocate and user of home power I was pleased when I saw my first issue (#15) of the magazine. I have not been doing much except talking about it for the last seven years for various reasons, but am now teaching a class on wind energy and electric vehicles for Jordan College's Energy Institute. The letter from Lon Beville about using Delco generators for motors is right on, but here's a few more tips. The variable resistor (rheostat) for the field is needed only if you want to vary the speed of the motor. I've used them for grinders, drill presses, water pumps, etc. by just grounding the field. By use of the rheostat, however, you can run these motors on higher voltages. 24 and 32 volt systems will run them ok, I've never tried higher. The trick is to keep the current in the field to the same level or less than if 12 volts was applied. More current than that is just turned to heat and can burn out the field coils. I took an old Ford generator and mounted it on a 30" buzz saw. Double V-belts from the motor to the flat pulley worked fine. At the time I was using a 30 volt system with a large battery. A rheostat was used to adjust the field current so that the motor drew minimum current and the saw would "sing" right. That was about 10 amps. The wood I cut was slabwood, sometimes I'd have to nurse it and make two cuts, but it worked well. While loaded down cutting hard, the motor would draw about 100 amps. Sometimes I'd smell the hot insulation, but since I had plenty of motors I ignored the odor. Never burnt that thing out, and I cut alot of wood. You probably know by know that Mother Earth News built a large Minto Wheel back in the '70's and it was a bust. Took so much heat to make it go that it wasn't worth the effort. It did work, though. If Home Power is interested I'll write an article on my battery powered arc welder that would lay a 200 amp bead and did a lot of fastening for me. Also, perhaps a description of water systems I've installed. Meanwhile, here's my six dollars for a subscription, keep up the good work! Oh, by the way, Jordan College's offices are in Cedar Springs, MI 49319. Paul E. Zellar, Mount Pleasant, MI ***Hello Paul, Home Power considers all reader input- articles, system shorties, homebrew, and letters. See "Writing for HP" on page 55 for the details. RP New Mexico Hydro Freaks, LOOK OUT! Would like to contact current water power user's in New Mexico. Can you help? H. Frauenglass, 1316 Willow Farm Box 56, Embudo, NM 87531 More Stamps Than Friends Hello! I am/was a B.S. Mechanical Engineer, but am also a pragmatist, or is it just intelligently lazy... I am impressed with a lot of the high tech equipment & techniques, many of which I am not familiar with, such as the LCB. On the other hand, I did not find as much low tech as I presently want. However, I did find helpful data for solar hot water -- and perhaps will plan on a fancier system which would also supply more hot water during the winter than the current method -- which is basically black plastic pipe on the roof pumped thru the existing propane HW tank to keep it full. RE back issues: have you a descriptive index which could make possible selection of WHICH back issues are desired? Have you reprinted and bound back issues for sale? Or even considered doing so? I can see just from #17 that selection of material for reprint might require savage ruthlessness or perhaps ruthless savagery........ Now a new purpose in/for life: existing till the arrival of the next issue. Thank you, thank you, thank you! You may publish any of this you like, w/name and address. I have more 25 cent stamps than friends, and am a medium fast typist... Best regards, Woody Mcpheeter, 3095 Galls Creek Rd, Gold HIll, OR 97525 ***Hello Woody, we're working on solar hot water articles, but we need input from readers to accomplish this in print. No one in the crew now has a solar hot water heating setup, but we are aware of several, notably the Copper Cricket from the Sage Advance folks in Eugene Oregon. Index of HP1 through HP11 is in issue #11. There is an index in this issue for HP12 through HP17. The back issues are disappearing fast. We are moving ahead with new info. If there is enough interest, we will collect the information in all back issues by subject and publish it as a book sans advertising. RP PV Rating Clarification Dear Richard and Home Power Readers: From time to time Home Power articles mention that particular modules put out more than the manufacturer's rating. These statements may be confusing PV users and some clarification is needed. The power output of a module is determined by many variables including intensity of sunlight, atmospheric clarity, ambient temperature and wind. To measure a single parameter such as output current may lead to the conclusion that one manufacturer's product frequently exceeds it's rated output. The engineers at the Southwest Region Experiment Station have tested well over 300,000 PV modules in the last ten years as systems were tested all over the country and overseas. In FEW CASES have we found PV modules that have even met, let alone exceeded the manufacturer's rating, particularly when installed in systems. Why the difference between tests and Home Power reader experience? Modules are rated by POWER output at a specific set of standard conditions which are generally a cell temperature of 25¡ Celsius and an irradiance value of 1000 Watts per square meter. Unless these two parameters are measured and used to convert the actual measured power output back to standard conditions, a comparison of power output is not possible. For example, a commonly available PV module may be rated by the manufacturer at 48 Watts at 16.7 volts and 2.88 amps when the cell temperature is 25¡C and the irradiance is 1000 Watts per square meter. If the irradiance drops to 800 Watts per square meter at a 25¡C cell temperature, the maximum power output drops to about 38.4 Watts at about 16.5 volts and 2.33 amps. Without knowing how much sunshine we have, we cannot know what the module is supposed to produce. Although the module is rated at 25¡C cell temperature, most modules operate at cell temperatures in the 40-55¡C range. With a 50¡C cell temperature, the above module would be able to generate about 2.90 amps at 14.8 volts or about 43 Watts. Again, unless we can measure cell temperature, we really do not know how the module output compares with its rated value. It is not too meaningful to just measure current output without doing the same for voltage and then converting the resulting power back to standard conditions. Power output (the product of voltage and current) is generally directly related to irradiance. Current increases almost directly with increases in irradiance while voltage goes up at a much lower rate. Current increases as temperature increases, but voltage decreases at a faster rate, so power goes down as temperature increases. Each module has slightly different characteristics. When the module is installed in a system, we have power losses in the wire, diode, switches, and fuses or circuit breakers. If the system output is measured and module output calculated from that measurement, we must consider those losses which may be as high as 9% when average module soiling is included. In a system where modules are connected in series and parallel to achieve higher output, a mismatch factor comes into play that may reduce the power output another 5%. In stand-alone systems that charge batteries, most modules deliver somewhat less than their rated output. Using the example module above, the manufacturer's rating is 48 Watts at standard conditions. The module will operate ay 50¡C on a summer day which reduces the output at the module to only 43 Watts. If batteries are being charged at about 14.5 volts, the module can deliver only about 41 Watts. In an average system, mismatch and wiring losses may account for another 5% reducing the power rating per module at the PV disconnect switch to 39 Watts. When module output is being stated for an actual system, all of these factors must be considered. Sincerely, John Wiles, Project Manager, Southwest Technology Development Institute, Las Crues, NM ***Thanks John, We've been thinking that maybe the best way to rate modules is by current (Amperes) and accumulated current (Ampere-hours per day). The Wattage figures are skewed by voltage measurements (P=IE) that are constantly changing with battery state of charge, battery temperature, PV cell temperature, and system loading. PVs seem to behave, within broad limits, like constant current sources. The amount of current is tied to many factors, the foremost is solar insolation. Factoring voltage into the rating makes it vaguer and more nonspecific since voltage is nonlinear in both batteries and PV cells. I have no doubt that many of our readers have solar sites that often experience more solar insolation than the standard of 100 mW./cm.2. This accounts for much of the overspec measurements. Bottom line however is that these measurements are real and do represent power produced. During a clear cold (<20¡F.) winter day, with snow all around, we've measured a sustained (>2 hrs.) 33.8 Amperes into a battery (14+ VDC) from 8 modules rated at 2.89 Amperes each. Now, this is 1.3 Amps more per panel than spec (or 46% overspec). While this doesn't mean that these panels are any better than any others, it does mean we had much higher than normal insolation coupled with low temperatures. It all adds up to more power and that's what it's all about. RP XXXXXXXXXXXXXXto HOMEBREW Another Sewing Machine Fix Dear Folks, I've been meaning to write about sewing machines and was finally prompted by your article on converting a sewing machine to hand power in the June/July issue. I have a somewhat unusual treadle sewing machine - a hybrid of old and new technology. The machine is a Bernina #807 and the cast iron base is a Singer industrial treadle. To accomplish this union required only a hacksaw and a little nerve as I cut away part of the metal casing around the base of my $600 Swiss-built machine, exposing the drive wheel. I removed the drive belt that connected to the electric motor and made a leather drive belt to fit around the treadle wheel. The machine itself sits on a wood table that is bolted to the treadle base, with a hole cut off from an old standard machine. The first treadle base I had was a cast off from an old standard machine, The drive wheel on most of these machines is 12" diameter, which is OK for straight stitching but too slow for zigzag or pattern stitches. i later found the industrial base with a 16" diameter drive wheel. It was holding up a flower planter in someone's yard and was quite rusty. I stopped and talked to the man who had it and offered to swap my nice painted base for his rusty one. Needless to say, he must have thought I was a little nuts but agreed top my proposal. I came up with this combo long before I moved off the grid. I originally learned to sew on an old treadle when I was 6 years old, and as a professional seamstress I wanted to recapture that precise control over the needle action without giving up the pattern stitches of my modern machine. The only part of my machine that I would ever consider hooking up to 12V would be the built in light bulb. I've had the Bernina for 15 years, 12 of which were treadle powered. Anybody want a slightly used 110 vac sewing machine motor? Larisa Walk, Rt3 Box 163A, Winona, MN 55987 Noooo....Body Knows!! About a year ago I wrote a letter that was printed in "Home Power" asking for reader information from those who had "China Diesel" generators. There were about 6 responses besides those that appeared in "Home Power" magazine. Alas, the variety of the responses leaves one wondering what really is happening out there. The responses varied from one person who suggested that the smaller engines be used as anchors for rowboats, and the other extreme from another person who had nothing but praise. If any generality could be made, it may be that the 13hp or larger engines have a better track record. Personally I have a 13hp, 8000 watt unit, and have written a couple of letters to the "China Diesel" company asking for parts, and have never received a response. So, pay your money and take your choice. Mark Riener, Mount Shasta, CA A Good Book My husband and I just recently joined the ranks of PV'ers. There are a few of us here in southern Vermont and we circulate a subscription (1) of Home Power among us. I am writing to tell you of a GREAT new book that helped us tremendously when we were building our remote hove and choosing just the right PV system for our needs. We thought you would put something in your magazine about it, since you are dedicated to getting the word out about new products, etc. to your readers. The book is The Solar Electric Independent Home Book and is written by Fowler Solar Electric Inc. of Worthington, MA. The copyright date is 1989; I note that there is no ISBN or Library of Congress number. We purchased our book directly from Fowler Solar Electric, Inc. We bought our system from FSE and also bought the book at the same time, mainly because it was recommended that we do so and we did not know that much about the "technical end" of the PV system we were installing. Well, after reading The Solar Electric Independent Home Book, we were able to design our system and know that we were getting exactly what we needed to power our home. We were also able to cut down a great deal on our electrician costs, because we did a good part of the installation by ourselves. Now, we are enjoying our system and know what to do during those low sun months and can troubleshoot our own system. It is just a good feeling to know we are able to rely on ourselves for our own power and taking care of our PV system. We couldn't have been able to do this had we not found out about Fowler Solar Electric's book. In any event, since you are on the West Coast, you may not know about The Solar Electric Independent Home Book. If you want to order one, the cost is $15.95 and is available from: Fowler Solar Electric, Inc. 13 Bashan Hill Road Worthington, MA 01098 The phone number is 413-238-5974 and there is probably a shipping charge. Ours was mailed with our system, so I am not sure what the shipping cost would be. It would be nice if you included my letter in your next issue, or see for yourself by ordering the book! Ann Schuyler, Londonderry, VT A Recycled Paper Fund Here's my $ for a subscription plus a little for a "Recycled paper fund"! So it costs more... this mag is a bargain at twice the price. If this group of subscribers can't bear the cost, who can we expect to. Increase the demand and the cost will go down. We can't afford NOT to use recycled products. Jim Sluyter, Bear Lake, MI ****We are chasing the elusive recycled paper full time. We will move to it as soon as we can afford it. Right now it's running about four times the cost of what we're using (it comes in giant rolls for a web press as bigger than our house). The paper we use now is recyclable. How about it HP readers, if we went to recycled paper would help pay the cost increase? RP & KP A Nerd's Answer Fellow Travelers, I just received the latest issue today and I am almost through it already. I loved the article on education. The kids are the ones who are really going to need this knowledge. Unless I missed it in my first rush through, (I usually read each issue at least twice), the person who wrote the Nerd's was not identified. He raises a point that is annoying to many computer users though. I use one at work for large volume jobs and losing a page once in a while on large batch jobs is not a problem. I also have a setup at home and do most of my personal correspondence on it. Since most of this is one page at a time stuff, losing a full page each time I print a page is very wasteful. The printer I have now has solved the problem permanently but what I used to do was to save a couple of empty sheets of the heavy paper that blank labels come on and cut them up the middle between the tractor holes. When I printed a letter and ran the paper ahead to tear it off, I would simply attach the strips to the end of the paper still in the machine, overlapping the top by a few inches, with Scotch tape or the adhesive edge of Post-Its or whatever else was handy. After a few mishaps I learned to only tape the strips to the part of the paper that would be torn off with the tractor holes at the top corners of the page and the bottom corners of the strips so as not to damage the letter when removing the Scotch tape. This only takes a few seconds and then I would run the paper back into the printer where it would be ready for my next letter with no waste. Keep up the good work. Health and Happiness, Rev. Joseph Christie, New York, NY *****Thanks for the tip, Joesph. The author of that particular Nerd's Corner bit was Bob-O Schultze and I get credit for leaving his name out. RP Q&A on Battery Voltages Reading your fine magazine has brought a couple of ideas to my mind that I haven't seen discussed. We are in the process of building a house that will use PVs for electricity. We expect to use about 4 Kw per day. The house will be wired entirely for 110 vac, except possibly the Sunfrost refrigerator. We already have 28 @ M-51 ARCO panels (2.31 amps-17.3 VDC). It seems with these panels wired series parallel, a voltage controller and 18 NICAD cells (18 x 1.65 max. voltage=29.70 VDC) one could use a 24 VDC inverter and refrigerator or with the panels, no controller and 21 NICAD cells one could use a 32 VDC inverter, a 110 vac refrigerator and make maximum use of the high voltage panels. I would appreciate it if you could let me know about the practicability of these ideas. Or if we would be better off with the more common combinations. Thanks, Larry Thompson, Boonville, CA ***Hi Larry, the most popular nicad configuration for 24 Volt systems is twenty series cells. This increases the battery's utility under nightly loads because its voltage stays higher. A nicad cell is effectively discharged when its voltage reaches 1.1 VDC under discharge. Under charge rates as low as C/30, the nicad cell will reach voltages above 1.6 VDC when totally full. Rest voltage of a full cell, not under either charge or discharge, is about 1.35 VDC. Under the 21 cell scenario you mentioned, the discharge voltage would be too low at night to operate the 32 Volt inverter. My advice is to use 20 series cells, regulate the array at about 30 VDC and use a 24 Volt inverter. This allows inverter operation until the nicad battery is totally empty. The 18 cell scenario will have voltage too low to run the 24 Volt inverter when there is still about 25% of the power remaining in the battery. RP. Q&A Fluorescents In a recent HP data was shown to indicate that wiring a house for 120vac alone was more cost effective than 12VDC & 120 vac. Sounds good but I do not like the disposable style of 120vac electronic PL lamp/ballast combos. I love Janmars new line of PL conversion units....except they use XMFR type ballasts= Great Inefficiency. Their PL-5 unit consumes, by my measurements via a Fluke D800, 14 watts of ac power. This does not include inverter inefficiencies. By contrast, a PL-5 with Sunalex 12VDC electronic ballast consumes a meager 6 watts TOTAL (as its DC). The Janmar units are incredibly versatile with replacement lamps, interchangeable globes/reflectors etc. Standard transformer ballasts also hum on the inverter so that with their inefficiencies I feel they're out of the question. They do make a #213 series which converts a standard edison base to PL and includes the adaptor threads for their various line of globes --Great--just put in an in-line/external ballast with it & presto ! efficiency & practical good looks. But where (who) to get an equivalent to Sunalex's SXE 1001 that operates on 120vac? Use a DC ballast with step down XMFR & diodes to rectify? Still=hum! The Dulux/Philips line are nice & VERY efficient! Philips SL18R40 uses a 0.1 amp at 120vac Å12 watts & 800 lumens. The Dulux have no reflectors...(try 'em in a track light) & the smallest of any electronic ballasted 120vac compact fluorescent is a Dulux EL-7 (7 watt). So, I'm asking for HELP!!! Let's get the word out & find a supplier/manufacturer for an ecologically sensitive, non-throw away ballast, efficient electronic ballast, 120vac PL bulb fluorescent conversion unit!! In a recent comparison article on batteries it was mentioned that the life of lead acid batteries in a float configuration is 15 years (found it!! HP17, pg. 34). I set up my power system around 4 years before (now) it was actually put into deep cycle service. I used it all as set up...12VDC lighting/inverter etc., but being in a travel trailer where ac grid power was available I just used a battery charger and kept the cells floating (Å1 to 2% capacity cycling, max.). My question is-did I use 4 years of my service life then or not? Does the lifetime clock begin as soon as electrolyte is added to the cells, ie. at the manufacturing facility or dealer point? If so, should I stop babying my 4 L-16's and figure their life is 1/3 to 1/4 over already? (Even tho they were just put into service 1 month ago.) Can one get more than 10-15 years out of L-16's with VERY conscience use, or is there a point where the clock is ticking on their life anyway, so you might as well use them (cycle the batteries). OH, I've written Janmar about their HORRIBLY inefficient PL ballasts & asked about electronic equivalents. Also Sunalex, in hopes they make or will make such a unit. Thanks for all you do! I appreciate (in advance) the responses to my question, I realize you MUST be incredibly busy. I want to do my house & neighbor's house wiring in 120vac but really want to do it efficiently or will recommend dual voltage systems. It is often frustrating, but worth it being on the leading edge! Todd Cory, Mt Shasta, CA ****Hello Todd. On the lead-acid cell, yes, they begin some of their aging processes the instant electrolyte is added to the cell. The initial float type service you had them under is the least wearing type. The lifetimes given in HP are statistical averages. Your experiences will be different. I would estimate that you have lost very little life from the L-16s because you kept them under float charge. Our particular pack of L-16Ws has been in repeated deep cycle service for over 10 years. We figure that out of their original capacity of 700 Ampere-hours about 500 remains. The self- discharge rate has increased noticeably since they were new. But they aren't dead yet and I'm still giving them the best of care (regular equalization), so we'll see just how long they do go. My advice on wiring is do it 120 vac and use an inverter. This offers simplicity and lower cost overall. The only negative point is the magnetic fields generated by the 120 vac. I suggest enclosing the inverter in a Faraday cage and using twisted pair wiring inside of metal conduit if this is a problem for you. We are working on information about magnetic fields in our systems and their possible health effects. More on this as soon as the info gets hard. RP Q&A Refers Dear Home Power, Here is my check for two years for first class delivery of a FIRST CLASS MAGAZINE. Keep up the good work as I have yet to find another magazine that even come close to yours. I just wish it was monthly. This question is for Bob McCormick (Homemade Low Voltage DC REfrigeration, HP16, P.48) or any one else that might know. Has a 12VDC Danfoss compressor & controls ever been installed into a window air-conditioner? If so, what size (BTU rate)? What was the current draw? If not, why not? Won't it work? It sure would be nice to cool the RV down when it is 115¡ outside. Thank You, Jim Miller, 4920 E Holly Apt 1, Phoenix, AZ 85008 Q&A NICADS Dear HP, I love your mag and right now am waiting for the next issue. I have a question about nicads for RV use. I live in a converted school bus and am worried about the higher voltage voltage of nicads. The big 145 amp alternator has a voltage adjust that might go up to 17 volts, but would that damage anything (start, gages, etc.)? Second, the power mostly goes to power my "car" stereo which is a 240 watt Carver Amp and tape deck. Would the higher voltage be safe for these? Thanx for your help as I would like to use nicads because of the endless batteries I have frozen because they weren't fully charged!! Rob Waghbourne, Crested Butte, CO ***OK Rob, simply leave your voltage regulator where it is. The nicads will refill at voltages as low as 1.35 VDC per cell (that's 13.5 Volts for a 10 cell, 12 Volt, pack) it just takes longer. Most vehicles using 12 Volt systems are regulated at between 13.8 and 15 VDC. This is just fine for a 10 series cell nicad pack. In fact, Lon Gillas's boss at Pacific West Supply converted his Mercedes diesel sedan from lead-acid to nicads after it ate three lead-acid batteries in a year. The nicad has been in place over eight months now, no mods to the voltage regulator and no problems. RP Q&A PV Panel Problem My site faces south and is relatively free of obstructions. My single solar panel is set at the proper angle for this latitude yet I can't get more than 500 mA. at noon. I suspect the panel but how do I test it? It's 34 watts and was manufactured in Maryland about 5 years ago. I can't remember the name of the maker. I would like to go to a larger array and more batteries. Right now I get 2 days use every three weeks and have to charge with my truck when I desire more. Also, is microwave a dirty word? I like mine at home and would like to add one at camp but can't find out if they will work off a simple inverter or would you need an inverter with a more sophisticated wave form? I'm talking a .86Kw microwave and a 100 watt inverter. If I go to a larger system will I also need regulation? Bill Walters, Butler, PA ****Here's the scoop, Bill. First check the panel for open circuit voltage. If you're charging a 12 Volt battery, then the panel must have an open circuit voltage of over 17 VDC. Maybe you've got a 9 or a 6 Volt panelÉ If the open circuit voltage is above 17 VDC and you still aren't getting any amps out (check the wiring, is it good?), then the panel is defective. Possible problems here are broken wiring within the panel or deceased cells. In order to run a microwave of any size, I recommend a 2,000 Watt inverter or larger. For example, we have an 860 Watt (that's 0.86 kW.) Goldstar model that performs well on our Heliotrope PSTT 2.3kW. inverter. In general, most microwaves will work well on inverters, the only problems reported are in a few electronic timers which go double-time demented on modified sine-wave power. Mechanical timers work fine. RP Comments and Questions Dear Home Power, Thank you for putting out such a much needed Magazine. I look forward to each issue. I have some questions and comments that I want to address to you. First, I can see that you are into your computers. I was wondering if you all knew of any bulletin board systems that are devoted to alternative energy? Second, I have some questions regarding surge protectors. I have been trying to use one ever since a short sent a spike to a tape player and severely damaged it. However, I have had some trouble getting one to last. Is there something about inverter power that these things just can not handle? My third question is about Ni-Cad batteries. Does any one recycle them They sound like a good alternative to lead-acid batteries, but if they are not readily recyclable, I can not consider using them. I would like to put in a word for low voltage homes. There is a move toward using an inverter to supply all of the electrical needs of an alternative energy home. There are some distinct advantages to this. Most notably, easier wiring. However there are some disadvantages as well. One is that low voltage is inherently safer. Another is that there is no electromagnetic radiation associated with DC current --this type of radiation might prove to be harmful. Furthermore, one must be totally dependent on his inverter. Although these units have grown quite reliable in recent years, there is bound to be a problem sooner or later. When that problem occurs, will there be someone around to fix it quick --there would not be around here. Thus, one could be without power for some time. This is what I have hoped to avoid using solar power. I also want to reply to Fred D †ensing's letter and S.K.'s response (HP16). I do not think we should discount the governments assistance with alternative energy's development. After all look what it has done for the development of other energy sources (note R. Perez's article of the same issue.) There has been some problems in the past with tax credits, but that does not mean we should not seek further government assistance. (I for one do not like the fact I support others electrical habits with out receiving any support for mine.) Solar energy, or computer technology -- including personal computer technology -- would not be where it is today without direct and indirect support. Note the space program which boosted computer and solar developments. Besides if we can get Uncle Sam into solar, maybe he will forget about nuclear. Thank You, Chip Upsal, Mt. View, MO ***Try Environet (the free Greenpeace BB) at 415-861-6503 (computers). Energy stuff is also available for pay on EcoNet (call 415-923-0900 for humans). On surge protectors: they often are unhappy with the mod-sine waveform of inverters. The SL Warber varieties work great on both Trace and Heliotrope inverters. Get one that is rated far in excess of the power you will use through it. This keeps the transorb filters, metal oxide varistors (MOVs) from freaking out. On nicads: Pacific West Supply will recycle, properly dispose of and/or recondition nicads. See their ad this issue. On EM from inverters: yep, it's there all right and it's also all over the grid. We're working on straight info along with the best research we can dig up on the health effects, ways to measure the EM fields at your location and what to do about it. Big job- we'll get it into print ASAP. On the gov't helping out: well, I think we should accept whatever help it supplies. Just let's not wait for them to do anything. Those of us already using renewables are so far ahead of what officialdom thinks is possible that they can't even see us on a clear day. If government wants to catch up quick, then I for one will do all I can to help them. As for waiting for them to fund a project or rule on the feasibility of a technology, forget it. By the time they do anything, we'll be flying around in PV powered heliocopters. RP