Subject: WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1993 to 11 Apr 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 00:00:35 -0400

There are 5 messages totalling 250 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. E-Mail address
  2. REF: French and German warships?
  3. French & German Battleships
  4. <No subject given>
  5. What is this thing?????????????

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Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1993 04:13:27 -0300
From:    Jay White <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: E-Mail address

KK> Kevin Kamphaus
KK> [email-masked]
KK> P.S. Where is the Imperial War Museum?

        Imperial War Museum
        Lambeth Road
        London,UK
        SE1 6HZ

cheers,
        Jay White
        ([email-masked])
        Mount Allison University
        Sackville, NB  CANADA

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Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1993 17:14:30 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: French and German warships?

I would appreciate any info (specifications, operational
histories, references, et cetera)  on these ships:

       [1] Ocean -- a French battleship operational in September 1939

       [2] Bearn -- a French a/c carrier operational early in 2nd World War

       [3] Mackensen -- German battleship or battlecruiser operational
                        late in 1st World War

Thanks in advance.

Robert George
(speaking only for myself)

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Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1993 17:16:55 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French & German Battleships

> I would appreciate any info (specifications, operational
> histories, references, et cetera)  on these ships:
>
>        [1] Ocean -- a French battleship operational in September 1939

The Ocean was originally named the Jean Bart and was the second of
the Courbet Class of battleships.  She was laid down in 1910 and
commissioned in 1913.  With a designed displacement of 23,000 tons,
she was armed with 12 12" QFG L/45, 22 5.5" QFG L/55 in casemates and
4 450mm torpedo tubes.  In 1927/28 the torpedo tubes were removed and
five 75mm AA guns were added.  Her four Parson Turbines put out
28,000 shp and maximum speed achieved on trials was 22.6 knots.

During WWI the Jean Bart served mainly in the Mediterranean.  Early
in the war, 8/16/14 she and her sisters Courbet, France, and Paris
engaged and sank the Austrian cruiser Zenta.  A few months later, on
12/21/14 she was struck by several torpedos from the Austrian
submarine U-12 in the Straits of Otranto.  She arrived in Malta  with
over a 1,000 tons of water in the ship.  After the War she was part
of the allied intervention against Bolshviks Russia.  On 4/16/19 she
bombarded Odessa.

In the 1920's she underwent minor conversions and from 1931 on was a
training ship.  With the laying down of the new Richelieu class in
1937, the Jean Bart was renamed the Ocean to free her name for one of
the new battleships.

As far as I know, she saw no operational service in WWII and by the
armistice she was a stationary training ship and hulk in Toulon.  She
was scuttled with the rest of the French fleet on 11/27/42.  The
Germans used her for target practice and was damaged by allied bombs
during Allied air raids in 1944.  Shortly after the liberation of
Toulon, she was broken up and  scrapped.
>
>        [2] Bearn -- a French a/c carrier operational early in 2nd
World War

The Bearn was the fifth ship of the Normandie class of Battleships.
All five were laid down shortly before the outbreak of WWI and
construction on them was halted when the war broke out.  Work resume
on the Bearn in 1918, but initially only with the view of launching
her to clear the shipyards.  She was finally launched in 1920.  During
1920- 1921 various tests with aircraft were conducted on her
partially completed main deck.  The decision was made to convert her
to an aircraft carrier.  By 1927 the conversion was complete and the
Bearn was France's first aircraft carrier.  She carried 40
aircraft.  As a carrier she must have been considered a failure.  Her
engines could only produce enough shp to move her at 21.5 knots and
she lacked catapults.  In June 1940 she escaped to Martinique and was
demilitarized until 1943.  Then she was converted in New Orleans into
a aircraft transporter.  Her flight deck was shorten and modern anti-
aircraft guns were added.  After the war, she served off the coast of
French Indo-China until 1946.  In 1947 she became a training ship,
eventually a stationary hulk in Toulon.  In 1966 she was sold and in
1967 towed to Italy for scrapping.

>        [3] Mackensen -- German battleship or battlecruiser
>           operational late in 1st World War

The Mackensen was not completed in time to see service in WWI.  The
lead ship in a class of four battlecruisers, she was laid down in
January 1915 and was approx. 12 months from completion when the war
ended.  Her general design was a continuation of development
started with the Derfflinger class.  If completed she would have been
a formidable battlecruiser, armed with 8 350mm (13.75") QFG L/50
mounted in four turrets, 14 150mm QFG L/45 in casemates, 8 88mm A. A.
guns, and 5 600mm submerged torpedo tubes.  The maximum thickness of
her side armor was 300mm (in way of comparison, the Renown class of
battlecruisers, laid down at the same time, had a maximum side armor
of 152mm).  Her displacement was estimated to be about 30,500 tons
and her top speed was estimated at 27 knots.

After the war, it was proposed to convert her into a large oil
tanker powered by old submarine engines.  This option was abandoned,
however, and the hull was scrapped in 1923-24.

It has been suggested by some that the WWII battle crusiers
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were nothing more than updated Mackensens.

I found all this information in Breyer, Siegfried:  Battleships and
Battle Cruisers, 1905-1970 Doubleday, 1973).

> Robert George
> (speaking only for myself)

Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1993 22:06:54 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

> Mike, I have the reference you are looking for in my personal library.
> DEVIL'S GUARD by George Robert Elford Paper back book first published in
> the US by Delacorte Press 1971 first published in gREAT Britain by New
> English Library 450 03754 1
>
> In the forward the author indicates that he is basicly retelling the
> story as told to him by Hans Josef Wagemueller who was an SS
> Partisanjaeger (guerrilla hunter) who joined the French Foreign Legion
> and served in Indochina.  Wagemueller is a name used by this man ie not
> his real name.  The book is fascinating and well worth reading.  But,
> you need a strong stomach.  This guy tells you how it was, in no
> uncertain terms.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Zel Eaton

I've got this book ( In paperback)  and have always felt that it had a very
high BS quotent.  I would love to get it either proved or disproved.

The 'Battalion of the damned' as he calls it lasted '1,243 days' and was
disbanded 700 days before Dien Bien Phu. Lets see that makes it sometime in '48
till mid '52, right? ( The dates are from the last page of the book.)

Some of Hans Josef Wagemueller's biography as listed in the intro
"When that was over [ 5 years in Indo China] he moved into a small Asian country
to train its token, archaic army in the intracacies of modern warfare and
the use of modern weapons. ... The head of state where he now lives has granted
him  citezenship. The local University has bestowed upon him the title Honarary
Professor of Military Sciences. He is now Hindu by religion and goes by a local
name. At the age of 64 he is still going strong"

Well 64 in 1970 ( book is copyrighted in 71) would make him 96 today.
I have a hard time accepting the 'This is the story as told to me by someone
who wants to remain anonynous' and by the way 'he wants his portion of the
royalties to go to the widows and orphans of those Americans who fell in
Vietnam'

Give me a break. Can anyone corraborate this account or do we write it off as
fantasy? I wish I had the time to check it out but work calls :-(

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

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Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1993 21:24:27 CST
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: What is this thing?????????????

I spent part of my Easter weekend in St. Louis, and found a really good
militaria store.  It is called Overlaord Military Collectables, located
at 3008 Woodson Road, St. Louis, MO 63114 (314-423-6644).  It has the
best WWII US uniform selection I've seen for sale outside of a
reenactment, and I purchased several items.  I got a pair of WWII
Officer's pink trousers, a pair of Khaki USA Suntan trousers that fit, a
1942 Army Officer's Guide, and a Navy Officer's Guide from 1943 (each
guide $12).  I am putting this impression of a USA officer for a USO
show at Jefferson Barracks, and I needed an overcoat/raincoat.
According to the Officer's Guide, raincoats were not an issue item, and
that commercial pattern raincoats were were acceptible, as long as they
were close in style and color.  I dug around and came up with a WWII era
rain/overcoat and bought it for $10.  The question I have now, is what
the heck is this thing???

It is a gabardine blend, knee length (trench coat).  The color is a
green, tan color---more light OD green than the pink trousers.  It is
double breasted with four buttons that are a brown/green like a US M-43
firld jacket.  It is belted, with two loops on the back, and a leather
covered open face buckle about 3" with a hasp in the middle.  It has epa
lauts, with some evidence of holes, however there is no evidence of any
sleeve insignia applied.  It has verticle opening pockets about 5" over
from the buttons, and located below the belt.  The collar lays flat,
with button holes on both lapels on the lower portion.  The pocket
opening flap is scalloped with a brown/green button, and there are wrist
straps with two buttons--one for normal, and one to tighten it up.  The
buttons are a plastic/sythetic.  The lining is an OD green satin, with a
verticle interior pocket on the left interior.  The only tag on it says
"Ritex Military Apparel, Criterion Mercery, 200 Pitt Street Sydney".
There are no tags in the pockets.  ALso, it has a right shoulder flap
like a hunting jacket would, secured with a button.

My digging thus far has surfaced that it looks just like a coat pictured
in the 1943 Navy Officer's Guide.  The picture is of an Ensign wearing
the Winter AviatorWorking Uniform (the green single breasted suit).  The
Ensign is wearing a jacket very similar, except that there are only
three rows of buttons on the pictured coat.  Also, if it were Navy, why
would it have Army type buttons.  The USN Officer's Guide doesn't
provide any info on the jacket in the picture.  Also, the Sydney
manufacture is a bit odd, unless there were tailors that jumped in the
uniform business to support US forces assigned there during WWII.  I
wonder if it is even US.  It is very obviously not a field garment.

I am really happy with it, because I got it cheap, and it will do very
nicely for what I want to do with it, but I still wonder, what it is?
Anybody got any ideas---especially you chaps in Australia.

Thanks in advance---Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

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End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1993 to 11 Apr 1993
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