Subject: WWII-L Digest - 20 Apr 1993 to 21 Apr 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 00:00:47 -0400

There are 15 messages totalling 578 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. IRELAND
  2. USAAF 21 APR 43 (2)
  3. about my father (2)
  4. USAAF 17 APR 43 (3)
  5. BOOK (2)
  6. INFO: Italian Navy: Genoa and Cape of Matapan
  7. BOOK FLYER
  8. MEMBERS (2)
  9. National Archives FTP Site

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 11:12:44 GMT
From:    Stephen Casey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: IRELAND

On Tue, 20 Apr 1993 15:21:45 -0400 <[email-masked]> said:
>
>During one of my jaunts through Ireland, my wife and I stumbled
>upon a cemetary for German military personnel who died in Ireland
>during the war.  I believe it was south of Dublin but would not
>stake my life, or paycheck, on it.  It was a small cemetary but very
>well kept and in excellent taste but I was still surprised to find
>it.

This cemetary is in Glencree, in the Wicklow mountains, about 12 miles south
of Dublin. The reason so many German personnel are buried there is that if a
plane was badly damaged on a raid on the western side of Britain the crew
had a better chance of making land in Ireland then getting back to the
Continent. Most of those buried were either dead before the plane made land
or else died of their wounds soon after.  German crews also probably felt
that they would be better treated in a neutral country.

The German Government/Embassey still looks after the Cemetary.

                       Stephen Casey.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 07:20:24 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 21 APR 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 21 APRIL 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/wwii/usaaf

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  Liberator, Consolidated (RAF)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eleventh Air Force)
  In the Aleutians, Commander North Pacific Forces (NORPACFOR) places all
Army and Navy Air Forces [Task Group (TG) 16.1] under Brigadier General
William O. Butler, Commanding General Eleventh Air Force. The Army Air
Striking Unit (Eleventh Air Force) is designated Task Unit 16.1.1 (TU
16.1.1) and the Naval Air Search Unit (Patrol Wing Four) is designated TU
l6.l.2.
  Two P-38's take off for Kiska but abort the mission.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force)
    In Burma, 8 B-25's bomb the railroad yards at Maymyo, and 9 more bomb
the area around the Myitnge bridge.
    In Thailand, 16 B-24's are dispatched to bomb the Bangsue Arsenal and
other targets in Bangkok, but only 4 reach the target area and loose
bombs over the city.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Italy, RAF Liberators, under operational control of the IX Bomber
Command, bomb Naples.
    In Tunisia, P-40's bomb and strafe barges along the coast. The British
Eighth Army meets such fierce opposition at Takrouna that General
Montgomery decides to confine the offensive to the coastal region.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Tunisia, weather prevents completion of any missions by the
Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF). Northwest African Tactical
Air Force (NATAF) fighters and A-20's hit landing grounds and military
traffic on roads, fly sweeps and armed reconnaissance, and attack
ground forces and aircraft in the Medjez el Bab-Goubellat area where an
enemy counterattack by armored and infantry columns during the night of
20/21 Apr ends in costly failure.
    The 346th and 347th Fighter Squadrons, 350th Fighter Group with P-39's
swap bases; the 346th moves from La Senia, Algeria to Orleansville,
Algeria; the 347th moves from Orleansville to Le Sers, Tunisia.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-25's bomb Kaimana and Laga. Single B-17's attack
coastal villages in NE New Guinea and hit Ubili and Gasmata in the
Bismarck Archipelago.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  [email-masked]                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 07:53:54 EST
From:    Mike Long <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 21 APR 43

>WEDNESDAY, 21 APRIL 1943
>CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force)
>    In Burma, 8 B-25's bomb the railroad yards at Maymyo, and 9 more bomb
>the area around the Myitnge bridge.

For several weeks now I've been reading Jack's chronologies about the efforts
to destroy the Myitnge bridge. (How ARE you supposed to pronouce it anyway?)
Would someone care to be a bit more explicit about why this particular bridge
was so hard to destroy? Was it that thoughly defended? How many aircraft
casualties did the Allies take? How many total missions were sent before the
bridge was knocked out, assuming it was?

Just curious......
Thanks,
Mike Long MLONG@UCONNVM

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 09:07:20 EDT
From:    Debby <[email-masked]>
Subject: about my father

I have just discovered this list. And have a question for you. My
father, Wiley T. Harrison, served in World War II. I know he was at Los
Alamos. He talked about the development of the first atomic bomb. And I
have a certificate to him signed by the Secretary of War. It's dated 6
August 1945. It's for service with the Manhatten District. That's all I
know about his service out there. My father died in 1979. If any of you
were out there, I'd like to hear from you. I'd like to know more about
what life was like for my father out there. If you wouldn't mind sharing
thoughts or memories of that I'd love to know more about it.

Please respond to my e-mail address: [email-masked]

I want to thank you in advance for anything anyone can tell me. Since my
father is gone, maybe some of you can help me know what he did.

Deborah Haynes
Computer Services
800 Wheatley St.
Georgia Southwestern College 31709-4693
(912) 928-1230   GIST 345-1230
INTERNET:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 09:36:59 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 17 APR 43

> SATURDAY, 17 APRIL 1943
>
> EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
>   VIII Bomber Command Mission Number 52: 115 B-17's are dispatched against
> the Focke-Wulf factory at Bremen, Germany the Eighth Air Force's largest
> mission to date. A mass of fighters attacks during bomb run, shooting down
> 15 while flak claims another. We claim 63-15-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 39
> B-17's are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 4 WIA and 159 MIA.

        This is a trivial question: what does the 63-15-17 above mean?
My guess is 63 destroyed, 15 probable, 17 damaged.  If that is the case,
how accurate are these figures?  They seem rather high to me.  This could
shed some light on the claim that B-17s downed the most fighters, though.
Losing 16 out of 115 B-17s is also a pretty nasty statistic.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I cut you on everyt'ing; I don't need you!  Sixty
feet of bridge I can pick up almost anywhere!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:19:09 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOK

  Oslo, April 21.  Again, let me say I appreciate the interest in
my book and the suggestions I am getting.
  I am sending flyers to Ray Villalobos, Richard King, and Steve
Fox, who have provided their mailing addresses.
  Ray, for those in the US, payment is no problem.  You can
do it with a check on your bank.  I have an account in Washington,
DC.  (Payment by people outside the US, who do not have US accounts,
is another matter and requires some discussion of options.)
  For Robert Granvin, as you will have gathered by now, I already
have a publisher who is very cooperative (myself).  If, after
someone shows him my book, a publisher wants to make me an offer,
I will consider it.  (This is the advantage of being retired on
a State Department pension - smile.)
  I would have glad to have you republish my IHT article,
if you think it would be useful.
  For Steve Fox, someone else has suggested I put my book on tape,
and I have this in the back of my mind.  I am, however, discussing
with a fellow on Compuserve putting it on disk and do not want
to get myself overextended.  (I am sceptical about the disk idea
but am curious enough to pursue the discussion.)  Perhaps we can
come back to the tape idea later.
  Yes, I am aware that Knowledge Index is now on Compuserve and
also have been using it for many years.
  As to Kari, this is a frequent girls name here.  My Norwegian
wife has a number of friends called Kari, which can make a
conversation with her confusing.  "Else, which Kari?"  The
university computer center gives each of its computers a person's
name.  The one I used happens to be called Kari, which can cause
further confusion.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 11:24:43 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: INFO: Italian Navy: Genoa and Cape of Matapan

        During the winter of 1940-41, activities of Italian battleships were
reduced.  Both "Littorio" and "Duilio" were undergoing repairs from damage
incurred the previous November at Taranto; the former still at Taranto, the
latter in Genoa.  Salvage work on "Cavour" continued at Taranto as well, but
it was estimated that she would not be refloated until the summer.  "Doria"
had completed training and was operational along with "Veneto".  "Cesare" had
been damaged in January, during an air raid on Naples, and was transferred to
Genoa for repairs that would last three months.

        At dawn, on February 9, 1941, Force H from Gibraltar, under Admiral
Sommerville, consisting of the battleship "Malaya", battlecruiser "Renown",
carrier "Ark Royal", a cruiser and ten destroyers, bombarded Genoa for half
an hour.  The targets included shipyards, factories, and "Duilio", still
under repair.

        Italian assessments indicated that such an attack was possible
and a force had previously been sent to sea, including "Veneto", "Doria",
"Cesare", three heavy cruisers and ten destroyers, to counter the British.
However, due to poor weather and communications, the Italian units were too
far south and, despite the favorable situation, were unable to intercept
the British.

        The British shelling sank some cargo ships but no other major damage
was sustained.  However, the audacity of the action was in keeping with the
best traditions of the British Navy.  Moreover, Italian morale suffered and
the incident again highlighted the navy's ineffective communications and
poor naval-air force cooperation.

        Little more than a month later, while controversy still swirled
around the shelling of Genoa, the Italian Navy suffered a significant
setback, perhaps its worse defeat at sea during the war.  In a brief night
action, at close range, the 1st Cruiser Division, consisting of three
heavy cruisers of the "Zara" class, along with two destroyers, was sunk.

        Under German pressure, a cruiser sweep of the Eastern Mediterranean
was planned, with the goal of interdicting convoy traffic between Egypt and
Greece. The Germans argued (incorrectly) that British battleships would not
be available to oppose the sweep.  Italy, dependent on Germany for oil, had
already used up half of its strategic reserve, and therefore bowed to the
pressure of its Axis partner.  The Germans committed themselves to cooperate
in providing air cover for the operation.

        The Italian force was made up of "Veneto", providing heavy cover,
eight cruisers and thirteen destroyers.  On the morning of March 28, 1941,
they neared the small island of Gavdo, near the Cape of Matapan, and came
into contact with four British light cruisers and eight destroyers.  These
were the British light forces, acting as scouts for the Mediterranean fleet,
which was made up of the battleships "Warspite", "Valiant", and "Barham", the
armored cruiser "Formidable", and nine destroyers under Admiral Cunningham.
He was aware that the Italian units were at sea and he was spoiling for a
fight, with the "Veneto" as his main target.

        The four British cruisers were sighted by three Italian cruisers
and turned southward, staying out of range, hoping to draw the Italians
into the British heavy forces.  After an hour, the Italians reversed course
with the same objective and the British took the bait.  "Veneto" then
appeared from the northwest and opened fire, taking the British by surprise.
Once they realized they were under battleship fire, the British again turned
southwards, hoping to draw the Italians into the oncoming heavy fleet.  Air
strikes were launched from "Formidable" and from land bases and Admiral
Iachino realized he had lost the element of surprise and decided to return
home.

        The British could not catch the Italians at their maximum speed
and so launched further air strikes, hoping to damage and slow them.
Late in the afternoon, "Veneto" was hit portside near the screws by an
air-launched torpedo.  The outboard shaft broke and the port propeller
sheared off.  Flooding was extensive and power was initially lost, but
the ship was able to get under way again a few minutes later, working up
to 19 knots and proceeding home.  Despite the German promises, calls for
fighter protection were in vain throughout the day.  Calls for assistance
from the Regia Aeronautica also were fruitless.  At dusk, during another
British air strike, the heavy cruiser "Pola" took a torpedo hit and
stopped dead in the water.  Admiral Iachino was unaware that the British
battle fleet was in close proximity, again being badly served by
reconnaissance and intelligence.  He ordered the heavy cruisers "Zara"
and "Fiume" and four destroyers to stand by and assist "Pola".

        On the other hand, Admiral Cunningham had a good appreciation of
the general situation thanks to effective air reconnaissance.  He believed,
though, that "Veneto", not a cruiser, had been stopped and continued his
pursuit despite darkness.  The British ships, radar equipped, unlike their
foe, came upon the Italian forces, aiding "Pola".  Unaware of the enemy's
presence and intent on assisting their compatriot, the Italian ships were
not closed up at battle stations.  At point blank range, British 15-inch
guns sank "Fiume" and "Zara" while two of the Italian destroyers were sunk
in the ensuing melee.  "Pola", immobilized, scuttled herself, being assisted
by a number of British torpedos after her crew was taken off by destroyers.
(British propaganda reports that "Pola"'s crew had panicked or were drunk
are totally baseless and their source and purpose should be noted.)

        Italian lack of radar and the British use of naval aircraft as well
as information via "Ultra" provided the British with a great advantage.
However, none of this mitigates the Italian mistakes, including poor night
tactics, reconnaissance and intelligence, as well as the absence of air
cover.  These factors combined to cause an Italian debacle.  Though the
defeat was painful, it did not materially affect the balance of forces
in the Mediterranean.  The Italian battleship force was still essentially
intact and four heavy cruisers remained in service while the British had
only one, "York", in the theater.  ("York" would be severely damaged in
May in Suda Bay, Crete, by a brilliant attack by Italian-piloted explosive
motor boats.  The ship would be unsalvageable.)

        "Littorio", now fully repaired, reentered service as the fleet
flagship, replacing "Veneto", which would be under repairs for the next
three months.  "Doria", "Duilio", and "Cesare" were also operational.

        It should also be noted that the British would soon suffer heavy
naval losses at the hands of Axis air units during the evacuations of
Greece and Crete, when the British lacked a friendly air umbrella.  This
was a situation frequently faced by the Italian Navy, and the British fared
just as badly.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
He blew out the brains of an apparent civilian on TV.  He was thus guilty
of the one truly unpardonable crime in modern society...  Bad Taste.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:38:32 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOK FLYER

  Oslo, April 21.
  For Chris Scogings.  I produced my flyer with Ventura Publisher, and
it is not easy to convert it to a file which can be sent by EMAIL.  I
will, however, try tomorrow to send it by fax.
  For Andree Webb.  Thanks for your vote of confidence.  My mailing
address is: John C. Ausland, Sondreveien 4 Entry 2, 0378 Oslo, Norway.
Please include your mailing address.  I will let you know when your
book is on the way.
  Glad you liked my article.  After writing many years about foreign
policy and military matters, my computer articles are pure fun.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:42:30 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOK

  Oslo, April 21.  For Andree Webb.  Yes, it will be $35 in total for
surface mail.  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 12:56:43 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: about my father

Debbie,

A very good book onthe Manhattan Project and the science advances that led to
it is:

The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes.  (Simon and Schuster, 1986).

This will tell you a lot about what went on, even if it doesn't mention your
father by name.

Hope this helps.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 13:31:48 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: USAAF 17 APR 43

                This is a trivial question: what does the 63-15-17 above mean?
        My guess is 63 destroyed, 15 probable, 17 damaged.  If that is the case,
        how accurate are these figures?  They seem rather high to me.  This could
        shed some light on the claim that B-17s downed the most fighters, though.
        Losing 16 out of 115 B-17s is also a pretty nasty statistic.
        --
        Joe Barone
        [email-masked]

You are correct!  The first number indicates the number of enemy
aircraft CLAIMED destroyed, the second number indicates the number
of enemy aircraft CLAIMED probably destroyed and the third number
indicates the number of enemy aircraft CLAIMED damaged.  There has
been discussions during the past week about the validity of these
claims and I agree completely that they are inflated which
presented one hell of a problem for intelligence officers.  When a
number of gunners were all shooting at the same target, you get a lot
of claims for the same aircraft.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  [email-masked]                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 19:57:48 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEMBERS

  Oslo, April 21.  I note on the breakdown by country of members of
this list that there are three from Norway.  I would be curious as
to who the other two are and wonder if they would identify themselves.
Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:48:47 -0400
From:    Lydia Fish <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEMBERS

>  Oslo, April 21.  I note on the breakdown by country of members of
>this list that there are three from Norway.  I would be curious as
>to who the other two are and wonder if they would identify themselves.
>Regards, John Ausland

Dear John

Send the command

review wwii-l by country

to

listserv@ubvm

and you will receive a list of members of wwii-l sorted by country

Lydia Fish

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Apr 1993 00:42:48 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 17 APR 43

>
>                 This is a trivial question: what does the 63-15-17 above mean?
>         My guess is 63 destroyed, 15 probable, 17 damaged.  If that is the case,
>         how accurate are these figures?  They seem rather high to me.  This could
>         shed some light on the claim that B-17s downed the most fighters, though.
>         Losing 16 out of 115 B-17s is also a pretty nasty statistic.
>         --
>         Joe Barone
>         [email-masked]
>
> You are correct!  The first number indicates the number of enemy
> aircraft CLAIMED destroyed, the second number indicates the number
> of enemy aircraft CLAIMED probably destroyed and the third number
> indicates the number of enemy aircraft CLAIMED damaged.  There has
> been discussions during the past week about the validity of these
> claims and I agree completely that they are inflated which
> presented one hell of a problem for intelligence officers.  When a
> number of gunners were all shooting at the same target, you get a lot
> of claims for the same aircraft.

>From a reference I had at hand: on 9 October '42 the 8th AF attacked Lille. The
bombers claimed 56-26-20. After the war it was found that Luftwaffe losses had
been 2.

The book includes handy statistics: Total claims for the 8th AF were 6098, for
the 15th AF 2110. (Compared to losses in combat 5548 and 2519, respectively). The
gunners of the 8th AF fired 76.887.000 rounds of .50 ammunition and 653.000
rounds of .30 ammunition, the 15th fired +30.000.000 rounds of .50... That is
roughly 13100 rounds/claim.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Apr 1993 19:11:29 -0400
From:    Lydia Fish <[email-masked]>
Subject: National Archives FTP Site

Forwarded from VWAR-L

=================================================================
The Center for Electronic Records of the U.S. National Archives
and Records Administration has established an FTPable directory.
The FTP directory can be accessed by FTPing to FTP.CU.NIH.GOV
(128.231.64.7).  The directory in which this information is
stored is CNTR_ELEC_RECS (CD CNTR_ELEC_RECS).

In this directory are four files: a READ.ME file describing the
contents of the files in the directory; the partial and
preliminary public Title List (TITLE.LIST.APR1693), created by
the staff of the Center as a guide to some of the records in the
custody of the Center; a file containing a brief description of
the Center (CENTER, excerpted from National Archives General
Information Leaflet #37, "Information About Electronic Records in
the National Archives for Prospective Researchers") and a
description of the fee based reference services provided by the
Center (SERVICES).  Please note that the Title List file has a
line length of 132 characters and currently has 8,101 lines.

To gauge the usefulness of this service, Center staff would be
interested in reactions from those who experiment with using any
of these files.  We are interested in suggestions for
improvement, any criticisms, and general comments.

I hope this information is useful.  If you have any questions,
please contact me at the Center for Electronic Records (NSX),
ATTN: Reference Staff, National Archives, Washington, DC 20408.
The telephone number is (202) 501-5579.  I can also be reached
via Internet at [email-masked] or BITNET at TIF@NIHCU.

THEODORE J. HULL
Archives Specialist, Archival Services Branch
Center for Electronic Records
(202) 501-5579

Apr 1993

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Apr 1993 to 21 Apr 1993
*************************************************