Subject: WWII-L Digest - 7 Apr 1993 to 8 Apr 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1993 00:00:17 -0400

There are 24 messages totalling 635 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Italian Fleet Disposition (3)
  2. F-5/P-38 (2)
  3. Italian fleet
  4. U505 (5)
  5. Flying Insects and Submersibles (3)
  6. Teterboro Display
  7. Additional Maritime Museum
  8. Naval Museum at Washington Naval Yard (2)
  9. Surrendered ships, U-505, & the Sara
 10. Surendered Ships, etc
 11. Tourist Subs
 12. Info needed
 13. A turning point? (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Apr 1993 22:44:30 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italian Fleet Disposition

>
> Does anyone have the distribution of the fleet available?  I'd like
> to know what units went to each country and the new names of any units
> renamed.
>
According to Siegfried Breyer's book Battleships and Battlecruisers,
the surviving Italian Battleships suffered the following fate:
Italia:  Returned to Italy Feb. 1947.  Allocated to the US under
         peace treaty as scrap.  Decommisioned June '48 and scrapped
         at La Spezia.
Vittorio Veneto:  REturned to Italy Feb. '46.  Allocated to UK under
                  peace treaty as scrap.  Decommisioned Feb. '48 and
                  scrapped at La Spezia
Andrea Doria:  REturned to Italy June, 1944, used as a training ship
               until 1956.  Scrapped 1957
Caio Dullio:   Same as Andrea Doria

Giulio Cesare:  Allocated to USSR as part of the peace treaty in Feb
                1947. Dec 1948 transferred to Augusta and then
                transfered to USSR in Feb 1949 as Z 11.  Incorporated
                into the Black Sea Fleet as the Novorossijsk.  Around
                29 October 1955 sunk in Sevastopol Roads as a result
                of striking a mine or from an internal explosion.

Unfortunately, I don't have any information for the rest of the
fleet.  You might want to check Jane's Fighting Ships from the late
'40's.  I hope this helps.

Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 09:36:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: F-5/P-38

Jack, an excellent documentation your list of F-2 till F-13 with
all their subtypes.
I found in Jane's the Northrop F-15 Black Widow the photorec.version
of the P-61E.
Have someone info about the F-1 and F-14??(not the Tomcat)
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 09:38:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italian fleet

Italian fleet.
For political reasons Churchill decided not to give the USSR Italian
batlleships in 1943.
Their comprimis was to send a Englisch battleship.
So the "Royal Souvereign" with US radar went into USSR service in 1944?
After the war she was send back to England.
Peter de Lange.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 06:14:02 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U505

John Riegsacker,

REF:  U505

There is a book (maybe out of print now) by ADM (Ret) Daniel Gallery
which talks about teh capture of the U-505.  He was the CO of one of the
destroyers that was right there and he was in on the boarding.

I read this book about 15 years ago and I'm sorry to say I can't remember
the title.  The author's name is correct.

Hope this helps.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 07:44:22 -0300
From:    Jay White <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Flying Insects and Submersibles

BS> The fact that it was captured and not surrendered at the end
BS> of the war is one reason it still exists. According to one
BS> of Galleries books there was a demand from the Soviets that
BS> it be destroyed since all surrendered equipment was to be
BS> destroyed. Gallery, and posibly others said that since it
BS> had been captured during the war and not surrendered at the
BS> end of the war it did not fall under the agreement.

I'm not sure this was strictly true--it certainly wasn't for the
Canadian Navy, which had a half-dozen or so surrendered U-boats
in its possession at the end of WWII.  On the other hand, the
U-boats *were* eventually 'destroyed' in that all the useful stuff
was stripped off & the hulks were sunk in ASW exercises.  But this
didn't happen in come cases until a year or two after the war ended.

It's too bad somebody in Canada didn't have the same foresight as
Capt. Gallery--what a fine exhibit the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic
in Halifax (see Larry's recent post) would have if a German U-boat
were berthed alongside Sackville, the last corvette.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 07:23:13 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: F-5/P-38

        Jack, an excellent documentation your list of F-2 till F-13 with
        all their subtypes.
        I found in Jane's the Northrop F-15 Black Widow the photorec.version
        of the P-61E.
        Have someone info about the F-1 and F-14??(not the Tomcat)
        Peter de Lange

I only listed the photo recon aircraft that were used in World War
II.  If I remember correctly, the F-1 was used in the early 1930's
and the F-15 Rainbow was a post-World War II development.

Let me check and I will post something, probably on Monday.  (Right
now I am working on a list of all Lockheed aircraft used by the
U.S. military for rec.aviation.military.  If there is any interest,
I will post it here also.)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 07:35:54 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Teterboro Display

           WORLD WAR II AIRCRAFT AT TETERBORO AIRPORT, NEW JERSEY

I received a flyer in the mail yesterday describing a mini-display at
Teterboro Airport in Teterboro, New Jersey that may be of interest.  Three
of the aircraft of the National Warplane Museum of Geneseo, New York,
will be available for viewing at the airport on April 16, 17 and 18, 1993.
Specifically, the aircraft are:

  1. A Boeing B-17(G?) Flying Fortress
  2. A Consolidated PBY(-6A?) Catalina
  3. A North American B-25(J?) Mitchell

The display is held under the auspices of the New Jersey Aviation Hall of
Fame and Museum which is located at the airport.  The aircraft "will be open
to the public for inspection on the Atlantic Aviation ramp on Industrial
Avenue, Teterboro Airport."

Parking is free but admission is $7 for adults and $3 for children.  The
admission "includes a visit to both the Aviation Hall of Fame's old control
tower museum on the west side of the airport and the Fred L. Wehran
Pavilion and Educational Center on the east side."

Call (201) 288-6344 for additional information.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 07:48:31 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U505

> I toured the U505 as a high school student.  The most amazing thing to me
> at the time was how little space anyone had.
>
> Somewhere, and I can't remember where, I read that Admiral King was furious
> at the caputure and swore all concerned to secrecy because we were reading
> the German ciphers and if word of the capture got out the germans would
> correctly realize we had their code books and would change them.  Does
> anyone know more about that aspect?

Gallery talks about the extreme concern over secrecy in his books. considering
they were written in the early 60s ( before Ultra) he doesn't mention that the
capture could have destroyed other sources of info but he does say the concern
was that if the Germans realized that the actual code books & machines had been
captured they would have changed them ( leading one to think that the capture
lead to a breakthrough in code breaking not that it would spoil an existing
one :-)

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 08:29:08 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italian Fleet Disposition

> The article below is from the Naval Chronology.
>
> 03/03/44 President announces that the Italian Fleet will be
> distributed among the United States, Great Britain, and Russia.
>
> Does anyone have the distribution of the fleet available?  I'd like
> to know what units went to each country and the new names of any units
> renamed.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry J

I don't have the distribution but I know that several US & British units were
'loaned' to the Soviets because we couldn't deliver Italian Units
I know 1 British R class Battleship ( Revenge?) and one Cincinatti class Cl
(Milwaukee?) were transferred in late 43 or early 44. There were other ships
involved. (probably all DDs or smaller) The loaned ships were returned after
the war. I seem to remember seeing something in Proceedings or Naval History by
a participant in the return process that said the Milwaukee was really trashed
when it was returned. I believe it was immediatly scrapped.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 08:52:55 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Flying Insects and Submersibles

> I'm not sure this was strictly true--it certainly wasn't for the
> Canadian Navy, which had a half-dozen or so surrendered U-boats
> in its possession at the end of WWII.  On the other hand, the
> U-boats *were* eventually 'destroyed' in that all the useful stuff
> was stripped off & the hulks were sunk in ASW exercises.  But this
> didn't happen in come cases until a year or two after the war ended.
>

That was within the time frame allowed. Remember the Prinz Eugen was used as
a test target at Bikini in 47?.  The victors were allowed to study the ships
but could not keep them for actual use.  I would not be surprised if that
clause was actually thought up by the US or Britian. after all who would usable
fleet units help the most? We were mothballing almost new ships. The Soviets
would have been the big winners if they were allowed to keep some of the
vessels.  When the US began insisting that the Soviets destroy some ships/subs
they had the Soviet diplomats said 'what about this U-boat you still have, you
haven't lived up to the agreement either'

I agree that it would be nice to have more 'relics' around Wish we could go
back and save Saratoga and/or Enterprise and a few others from the fate
they had.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 08:04:44 CST
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Additional Maritime Museum

I know of an additional ship museum:

USS INAUGURAL, located on the St. Louis, MO riverfront.  She is a WWII
era minesweeper that participated in the battle for Okinawa and
performed patrol and minesweeping operations before being decommissioned
in 1946.  She is now a National Historic Landmark, and is open for
self-guided tours.  She is located at the North leg of the Arch.  Take
I-70 to the Arch downtown.  Park in the Arch parking.  Her address is
300 North Lenore K. Sullivan Blvd.  It costs adults $1.75, and children
over 4 $1.25.Tours are from 10am to dusk daily from April through
October.  She is ran by St. Louis Consessions, phone 314-771-9911.

I haven't been there to see her, but I've heard she is OK.  A friend in
the Navy Reserve had a change of command ceremony to attend on the USS
Inaugural.  They had to wear their Summer whites, and it was September.
The temperature was 40 degrees.  Let's just say that they froze their
rears off, and they are now floating somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 09:16:00 EST
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Flying Insects and Submersibles

>I agree that it would be nice to have more 'relics' around Wish we could go
>back and save Saratoga and/or Enterprise and a few others from the fate
>they had.

>Bob Smart ([email-masked])

Well, if you have the bucks, you can certainly visit these ships.

There are dive tours that go to the atoll.  Saw a special once about
diving the wrecks in Bikini and Rabaul.  Neat stuff.  The Sara(?)
had a hangar deck full of aircraft, and is in relatively shallow
water.

Eerie...

N93774

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:13:11 EST
From:    S214000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U505

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!!
Then Capt. Gallery was aboard the USS Guadualcanal when he came up with
the idea of capturing a U-boat. And VC-5 was the squadron assigned to
the Guadualcanal. Mike

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:53:22 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Museum at Washington Naval Yard

Request for information....

Has anyone on the list been to the Naval Museum at the Washington
Naval Yard?  What aircraft are on display?  I'm planning a trip
to DC this summer to re-visit the Garber restoration facility for
the National Air and Space Museum.  Should I include a visit to
the Naval Museum as well?

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

P.S.  Larry, I'm sorry I forgot to use a flag in the SUBJ line; not
      sure which one would have been appropriate anyway....

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:16:26 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U505

>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!!
> Then Capt. Gallery was aboard the USS Guadualcanal when he came up with
> the idea of capturing a U-boat. And VC-5 was the squadron assigned to
> the Guadualcanal. Mike
>
Hmmm, the Naval Chronology shows VC-58 as being on Guadalcanal prior to
this incident, but doesn't show the embarked squadron at the time of the
capture.  Anyone know when 58 was replaced by 5?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 09:45:18 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Surrendered ships, U-505, & the Sara

A strange series of topics, but I felt that one message would be
better than three.

I have read, and unfortunately I don't have the references handy at
the moment, that both the Soviet and French navies kept several ex-
German warships in servce well into the '50's.  If I remember
correctly, these were primarily the surviving Narvik class destroyers
(armed with the 5.9" guns) and some torpedo boats (Not the E-boats,
but similar to U. S. Destroyer Escorts).  I also think that both
navies kept in operation a few U-Boats, including several MK XXI (I
think that was the designation, the advanced design of fleet boat
that was just entering service, I apologize again for not having my
references handy!).

One of the prizes on the U-505 was the capture of a complete German
code book.  Even with the advances of ULTRA, this was a real windfall
and it allowed anti-submarine activity to be even more effective in
the remaining months of the war.  One disadvantage of the U-505 tour
in Chicago is that you can not go into the conning tower.

With in the past year, National Geographic did an article on the
ships at Bikini Atoll and it includes several good pictures of the
Sara.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 09:58:21 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Surendered Ships, etc

I think I forgot to sign my name to my last message!  I'm new to e-
mail, so have some patience with me.

Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:57:24 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Museum at Washington Naval Yard

> Dennis E. Sparks
> [email-masked]
> Lexington, Kentucky
>
> P.S.  Larry, I'm sorry I forgot to use a flag in the SUBJ line; not
>       sure which one would have been appropriate anyway....
>
We only need the flags when traffic starts to get very heavy.  I'll post
a note when we reach a stress point.  Those of you who are original
members remember the slightly chaotic condition of the list when it started
so you can appreciate the more sedate pace we're moving with now.

Flags can, of course, be used at any time if you want to focus your topic
to a specific area.

Larry J

BTW, I'll be at the dedication of the Women's Memorial in DC next Veteran's
Day, 11 November.  If any of you are in the area, let's get together.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 15:03:13 -0400
From:    Eliot Friedman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Tourist Subs

While we're on the subject of old subs open to the public, I thought I
might mention the USS Torsk, on permanent display in Baltimore's Inner
Harbor.  There's a growing collection of other antique craft, including
the Coast Guard cutter Taney, and the 1812 vintage frigate Constellation.

-Eliot
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 12:17:00 EST
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Info needed

I am posting this for a colleague who is doing some research
hopefully leading to publication.

--------------------- forwarded text -----------------------

The following are usually listed as the top five fighter aces
of the Italian Air Force in WWII:

Major Adriano Visconti
Sg. Maj Teresio Martinoli
Lt. Leonardo Ferulli
Cpt. Franco Bardoni-Bisleri
Sgt. Luigi Corrini

I would like any biographical information on any or all of the
above.  I am looking for unit affiliations, the fronts on which
they fought, types of aircraft flown, current location or date
of death, personal achievements, etc.

I am aware that Bardoni-Bisleri was teh only one to survive the war, and
that he flew a Macchi MC202 over the Med and N-Africa as a squadron
commander in the 12th Gruppo CT.  I have no information on the other four.

Any reference sources, personal recollections, whatever would be appreciated.

I have a special interest in info about Visconti.

--------------------------- end of text ----------------------------------

N93774
-Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:35:18 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italian Fleet Disposition

        At the time of the armistice, "Impero" and "Cavour" were docked
in Trieste.  "Impero" was still under construction and a further 18 months
were needed to complete her.  "Cavour" was still undergoing repairs from
damage inflicted at Taranto, nearly three years before, and would need
another six months before she was completely repaired.  The Germans captured
these ships and suspended all work on them.  Dismantling of the ships
commenced in order to provide materials for the German war effort.  What
remained of the hulls of "Cavour" and "Impero" were sunk in Trieste by
Allied bombers on February 15 and February 20, 1945, respectively.  "Cavour"
was salvaged in 1946 and "Impero" in 1947 and they were scrapped.

        On September 23, 1943, an agreement of cooperation was reached
between the Allied and Italian navies concerning the fate of the Italian
fleet.  This was formulated by Admiral A.B. Cunningham, Chief of Allied
naval forces in the Mediterranean and Admiral Raffaele De Courten, Chief
of the Italian Naval Staff and Minister of the Navy.  The accord called
for the use of nearly all remaining warships, excluding the battleships,
against the Germans.  On October 13, 1943, Italy officially declared war
on Germany, formalizing the state of hostilities which had existed in
actuality since the armistice.  Except for the battleships, the units
returned to ports in Southern Italy and commenced operations.

        "Italia" (formerly "Littorio") and "Veneto" were interned in the
Great Bitter Lake, in the Suez Canal, with greatly reduced crews.  They
remained there, inactive, from October 1943 through February 1947.
"Cesare", "Doria", and "Duilio" remained in Malta with reduced crews
until June 1944 when they were returned to Italy.  "Cesare" remained
inactive in Taranto until the end of the war while the other two were
used on a limited basis, for training, in the waters of Southern Italy.

        The Italian government made vigorous efforts to have "Italia"
and "Veneto" returned to Italy and put back into service.  A proposal
was made to use the ships in the Pacific as carrier escorts.  However,
the Allies would not accede to such suggestions.  Instead the two ships
remained in Egypt, in the middle of the desert, like hostages, symbolizing
a vanquished nation.  They were finally allowed to sail home in February
1947, to face an even more denigrating fate.

        In 1944, the Russians had requested the immediate division of the
surviving Italian fleet, so they could take possession of their share.
While hostilities continued, this was not practical.  To placate their
ally, Britain and the US loaned a number of ships to the Soviets, including
the battleship, "Royal Sovereign", and the cruiser, "Milwaukee".  When
the war was over, the Soviets again demanded the Italian ships due them.

        Italy was obliged to sign a peace agreement in Paris on February
10, 1947.  This granted the "Cesare" (and other small units) to the Soviets,
"Veneto" to Britain, and "Italia" to the US.  "Doria" and "Duilio" were
to remain part of a reduced Italian Fleet.

        Separately negotiating with the countries in question, Italy
obtained renunciation of the ceding of the ships to the US and Britain
and a reduction in the number of ships assigned to France, which was
not scheduled to receive any battleships.  However, the ships in question
were to be scrapped.

        The "Cesare" was overhauled and decommissioned.  Given the number
Z-11, and crewed by and sailing under the flag of the Italian Merchant
Marine, the ship was transferred to the Soviet Union, at Valone, Albania,
on February 6, 1949.  The "Cesare" was renamed "Novorossik" in Soviet
service and was used as a training ship.  It is believed that she was
sunk in October, 1955, following the detonation of a mine.

        Despite Italian efforts to procrastinate on scrapping her modern
battleships until the clause in the treaty lapsed, "Veneto" and "Italia"
had their 15-inch guns sheared off and their machinery was destroyed.
These once-potent ships remained in this forlorn state for some years,
until October 1955, when they were scrapped.

        "Doria" and "Duilio" were of limited value due to their age and
design short-comings.  They were used as training ships and alternated
as the flagship of the commander-in-chief of the Italian Naval Squadron.
"Duilio" left active service in 1953 and was laid up at La Spezia.  "Doria"
was based at Taranto and was used for some years as a training and barrack
ship for the local naval school.  "Duilio" was scrapped between 1957-1958
and "Doria" between 1961-1962.  With their demise, the Italian battleship
passed into history.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 18:23:00 EST
From:    GERHARD REMPEL <[email-masked]>
Subject: A turning point?

While the subject title may be a bit of hyperbole, I did wonder about
the announcement this afternoon on CNN to the effect that the German
Constitutional Court had finally resolved the issue within the coalition-
government about German soldiers being involved in the enforcement of
the no-fly zone over Bosnia.

Is it significant to German citizens that German soldiers will be involved
in potential combat areas, albeit under UN auspices, and do so with the
full blessing of the top legal authorities? This is something, after all,
that has not happened since 1945. Is World War II finally over?

Gerhard Rempel
GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 18:45:43 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A turning point?

>
> While the subject title may be a bit of hyperbole, I did wonder about
> the announcement this afternoon on CNN to the effect that the German
> Constitutional Court had finally resolved the issue within the coalition-
> government about German soldiers being involved in the enforcement of
> the no-fly zone over Bosnia.
>
> Is it significant to German citizens that German soldiers will be involved
> in potential combat areas, albeit under UN auspices, and do so with the
> full blessing of the top legal authorities? This is something, after all,
> that has not happened since 1945. Is World War II finally over?

   The Allies stated continuously that they were fighting political ideologies
and not the people of the countries of the Axis.  It's hard for the "common
people" to understand the subtle distinction of this.
   Daschunds and "German shepard" dogs were killed during WWI in the USA and
sauerkraut was renamed "victory cabbage."
   We need to learn from the war, and from the period after the war.  I'm
glad that it's now becoming possible for the old enemies to work together
in solving some of the problems facing the post-war world.

> Gerhard Rempel
> GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Apr 1993 20:36:50 CDT
From:    Mark Coover <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U505

Gosh Barry , I hate to mention it , but the name of the book is  "U505".
  boy that was hard, I think I strained somthing!   Ok all kidding aside, I hav
e several of Adm. Gallery's books and I like em all....But U505 is my Favorite.
Its a quick read with a wealth of information about the times that is understan
derable to lay persons and Landlubbers like my self.How the Idea of seizing a s
ub started is intresting. A Uboat had surfaced and wallowed underfire for an ho
ur or so before sinking....Capt. Gallery Heard about it and started playing "Wh
at if we get that kind of Chance" games with his Officers...pretty soon they st
arted "Boarding Party ' Drills on the off chance They might get a crack at a su
b. then one day U505 is force up, close to them, and Shaszam! Opportunity meets
 Preperation and Captin Gallery is a Hero. Great Stuff, Great Book.  Mark.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Apr 1993 to 8 Apr 1993
***********************************************