Subject: WWII-L Digest - 30 May 1993 to 31 May 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 00:00:47 -0400

There are 10 messages totalling 262 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Long Lance Qyery
  2. REF:  Doomed at the Start
  3. RE TRV: TROUBLE WITH THE BRITS
  4. TRV: DIFFICULTY WITH THE BRITS
  5. Memorial Day, 1993 (2)
  6. Hello
  7. GEN: REALLY disuccusing the war
  8. THE LIST AND WWII
  9. Inflatable Dummies

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 00:13:00 EDT
From:    ROBERT GANNON <[email-masked]>
Subject: Long Lance Qyery

I've been trying to find out a bit of information about Long Lance
(to fill in a hole in a manuscript I'm writing) but so far I've
been unable to find what I want--so I turn to you.  Specifically,
I'd like to find out the circumstances of the first Allied capture
of one.

Long Lance, you remember, was the monster Japanese torpedo
Type-93, the biggest, most powerful in the world.  It
stretched almost 30 feet, had a diameter of two feet, weighed more
than 3 tons, and ran at speeds of up to 56 mph driven by a 500-hp
engine that used liquid hydrogen peroxide instead of compressed
air.  Its effective range was 22 miles, and it ran wakeless.
Nobody else had anything like it.

But nowhere can I find how, where, or when the Allies secured one.
I know they did, because late in the war some laboratories began
to try to copy it.

Can you supply any information?  Thanks for the help.
======================================================================

Robert Gannon              |  Bitnet:    RHG@PSUVM
35 Burrowes Bldg.          |  Internet:  [email-masked]
Penn State                 |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or 355-0943
University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 00:31:47 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF:  Doomed at the Start

I have just finished a book that may be of some interest to the list.
It is *Doomed at the Start:  American Pursuit Pilots in the
Philippines, 1941-1942* by William Bartsch (Texas A & M Press, 1992).
The book chronicles the misfortunes of the 24th Pursuit Group, which
with its P-40's and P-35's were expected to defend the Philippines.

Bartsch spent 13 years researching the book and interviewed almost
all of the surviving members, pilots and ground crew.  He also
interviewed some of the Japanese pilots who participated in the
campaign.  He has produced a work that gives an almost day by day
account of the 24th Pursuit.  This book is not so much an analysis of
the campaign, but an account of experiences of the men who fought the
battles.

The failure of the Army Air Corps in the opening days of the
campaigns has been debated by everyone from scholars to conspiracy
addicts.  SOme (then & now) have argued that the concentration of
American airpower should have inflicted heavy damage on the
attacking Japanese.  Myths have grown up about all the planes being
destroyed on the ground.  Bartsch convincingly shows that the 24th
Pursuit suffered from a combination of poor equipment and over
confidence that truly made the group doomed from the start.

The 24th was equipped primarily with P-40's; one squadron of P-40B's
and three of P-40E's.  While the P-40E was the best American fighter
at the start of the war, they were nothing but problems for the 24th.
Most arrived only weeks before the war started.  But many were
grounded because the Army forgot to ship the Prestone anti-freeze
needed for the engines!  One squadron was re-equipped only days
before the outbreak of hostilities.  Another problem with the P-40E's
was that a maintenance order forced the groundcrew's to disconnect the

mechanism that automatically cleared the guns when they jammed.  This
meant that the planes had to land when ever the guns jammed (which
happened all too often).  Finally, the P-40's performance suffered
severely at the altitude used by the Japanese bombers.

While many pilots realized their limitations and predicament, most
were over confident in their ability to outfight the Japanese
fighters and bombers.  This despite the fact they had any real
training with their new aircraft in squadron tactics and interception
techniques.

On December 8th only one squadron of P-40B's were caught on the
ground and most of its aircraft were destroyed.  But while the other
squadrons were airborne, they were unable to intercept the
attacking bombers because of conflicting orders and bad luck.  Fog
delayed the Japanese strike and most American planes were short of
fuel when the attackers finally arrived.  One squadron circled over
Manila Bay and never spotted the Japanese.  Those that did intercept
enemy fighters tried to dogfight with them, which all to often proved
fatal to the Americans.  By the end of the day about a third of the
American fighters had been either shot down, destroyed on the ground,
or crashed through pilot error.

December 10th was even worse for the 24th Pursuit.  The Philippines'
only radar set was destroyed on the 8th so the American pilots had
only a few minutes warning before the Japanese appeared.  Many more
fighters were destroyed on the ground.  Nine P-40's who did manage to
get aloft decided to attack 30 Zeros, most of the Americans were shot
down.  By the end of the day another third of the group's fighters
had been lost.  After this the Japanese were undisputed masters of
the air.

The rest of the book tells the story of the remaining pilots and
planes which continued to operate under worse and worse conditions
until the campaign came to an end in May, 1942.

The final chapter is an analysis of the failure of the 24th Pursuit
and compares it to the success of the Flying Tigers under Chennault,
who also flew P-40's.  He blames the lack of an effective early
warning system, unfamiliarity with the P-40E's and poor leadership as
the main reason for the 24th's poor perfomance.

The story of the 24th and its men is involving reading.  I recommend
it to anyone who is interested in both the opening days of WWII and
men in combat.

Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
[email-masked]
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 10:06:36 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE TRV: TROUBLE WITH THE BRITS

{  Oslo, May 31.  In the event it has not creeped through to the list,
those who said it was the cricket grounds which the town clerk in
Axminister would not let us use as a drill field are correct.
  As to the silver dollars, it looks like they will have to look to
Jerry, since he is using the great power he has as list owner to
hold on to them.
  Thanks to all those who joined in this bit of nonsense.
  Regards, John Ausland

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 08:09:19 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: DIFFICULTY WITH THE BRITS

Hmmm, I'd guess that the reason that the town clerk didn't allow you to have
your first choice of drill fields was that you chose the town pasture.  B=)

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 08:14:52 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day, 1993

Larry, Thanks for your Memorial Day message.  Since I'd  signed off VWAR-L,
I was wondering if I'd see it on this list (or MILHST-L).

Michael Cotter,
3rd RRU, Vietnam, 1/62 - 5/63

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 07:36:51 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memorial Day, 1993

>
> Larry, Thanks for your Memorial Day message.  Since I'd  signed off VWAR-L,
> I was wondering if I'd see it on this list (or MILHST-L).

As long as I've got access to a computer with a hookup to the net, you'll
see it.  We owe a lot to so many.

>
> Michael Cotter,
> 3rd RRU, Vietnam, 1/62 - 5/63
>
Larry J

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 12:54:12 CDT
From:    Brian Clemmons <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hello

Hi!  My name is Brian Clemmons and I'm a student at the University of
Alabama.  My grandfather is a naval veteran and I am now a military
reservist.  I'm interested in learning more about WWII, especially
infantry experiences in all theaters.  I'd love to hear from anyone
on the list.

Thanks,

---Brian

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 16:07:00 EST
From:    GERHARD REMPEL <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: REALLY disuccusing the war

As usual, Bill Thacker makes a lot of common sense. I simply would like to
endorse his point of view.

Gerhard Rempel
GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 16:23:00 EST
From:    GERHARD REMPEL <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THE LIST AND WWII

John Ausland said:
>My boss when I was working on the Berlin crisis in the early
1960s in State had had no military experience but had a remarkably
good grasp of the military aspects of the problem...............<

I for one would like to hear more about your experience with the Berlin
crisis at the time the wall went up. Could you tell us what you were doing
at the time and how you view those events now?

Gerhard Rempel
GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

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Date:    Mon, 31 May 1993 17:52:22 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Inflatable Dummies

> Filed under Weird Weapons ..
>
> I remember reading about the Allies producing large
> quantities of inflatable dummy tanks and airplanes
> and situating them strategically around England,
> so as to mislead Axis agents both on the ground
> and in the air about the resources available for
> the invasion of France.
>
> Does anyone have the story ?

You've got the basic story. Lots of photo spreads on the pre-invasion buildup
have a photo showing an inflatable tank ( I've seen the same photo so many
times I can visualize it right now, I just can't find it).  I beleive one of
their main uses was to simulate the buildup of Pattons imagenary army that was
supposedly going to launch the main invasion in Pas de Calais.

Same types of decoys are still used, theyve just gotten more sophisticated
so that they can fool thermal and other sensors.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

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End of WWII-L Digest - 30 May 1993 to 31 May 1993
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