Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 May 1993 to 27 May 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 00:00:40 -0400

There are 43 messages totalling 1727 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. CEMETERIES (5)
  2. USAAF 27 MAY 43
  3. Re. Cemetaries (5)
  4. Lessons
  5. Enola Gay markings
  6. U.S. Army Writing (2)
  7. Re. Bill Mauldin (3)
  8. SANTAYANA RECONSIDERED
  9. Wrong war, please. (6)
 10. CEMETARIES
 11. Listserv (2)
 12. GEN: Just some light reading...
 13. 50 Years ago today?
 14. SUMMER PROJECT (3)
 15. U-boat wreck
 16. Addr: Summer Project
 17. LIST AND WWII
 18. FAQ list
 19. Lack of interest
 20. WWII-l Charter
 21. FAQ, the prequel. (2)
 22. THE LIST
 23. What is your favorite FAQ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:34:17 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: CEMETERIES

  Oslo, May 27.  During my Easter revisit to the area in which the
4th Division fought during the miserable winter of 1944-45, I visited
several cemeteries.  One of them was a German cemetery near the
village of Huertgen.  The others were the American and German cemeteries
near Luxembourg City.
  I was again struck by some contrasts.  In the first place, there were
more visitors to the American cemeteries.  Also, they give a brighter
appearance.  The Americans use an off white stone as grave markers and
buildings, the Germans a heavy, grey stone.
  After visiting the Huertgen Forest, I fell to wondering where all
the men who died there were buried.  A message on the European Forum
of Compuserve produced a pamphlet from the American Embassy in Paris,
produced by the American Battle Monuments Commission.  This covers
cemeteries around the world, in which there are buried 124,912 dead.
Most of these are from World War II.  This does not include the
94,241 who were missing in action or buried at sea.
  After the World War II, the Battle Monuments Commission consolidated
the many graves scattered around Europe.  Next of kin were allowed
to decide.  Some wanted the men left near where they had fallen.
Most were reburied in the present cemeteries.
  The men who died during the winter fighting are for the most part
buried in cemeteries in Holland, Belgium, and Luxembourg.
  The visits to the German cemeteries were disappointing, because
the offices were closed.  There was, however, a large sign in German
at the Huertgen cemetery, which described what had gone on in that
area at length.  Since I read German, I could read it.  It was, however,
too long to copy and used too small print to photograph.
  A letter after returning home produced a letter from the German
organization which cares for the cemeteries.  This included
the full text of what is on the sign at the Huertgen cemetery, as well
as an excellent pamphlet about all military cemeteries in Germany, of
which there are many.  Also included was information on cemeteries in
east Germany.
  According to the text of the sign, the Germans lost 12,000 and the
Americns 55,000 in the fighting in that area.  As far as I know, there
is no reliable data on German casualties, and the figure for the
American dead is too high.  I have, therefore, queried my correspondent
about sources.
  In the cemetery near Luxembourg City, there was the same sign as
I had seen at a German cemetery in Normandy last June.  This I could
photograph, and it says that the cemetery is one of 343 in 24 countries,
with 1.4 million graves from the two wars.
  One does not have to dwell on these figures for long to see that they
say a great deal about German and European history in this century.
  Also, the American cemeteries say a great deal about the price
Americans have paid when intervening in European civil wars, to
prevent Germany from getting control of this continent.
  My father having survived both the first and second round and I the
second, I have no regrets.  My generation has provided Europeans nearly
a half century of peace - although the east Europeans paid a
hugh price for this.
  Unfortunately, there are now signs that the war phase of the cycle
is returning, and one must wonder how long the present civil war can
be limited to Bosnia.
  Regards, John Ausland
  PS  I am sorry if this has provided somber reading, but it is an
inescapable part of the history of World War II.  I would welcome
comments.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 02:48:17 -0400
From:    John Peterson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CEMETERIES

John:
     It's true that the number of casualties in WWII is very sombering.
However, it is something that must not be forgotten.  In this day and
age, it is very easy to forget what happened "so many" years ago.  The
fact that it happened on foreign territory has a lot to do with it.  We
forget what we can't see.  I can only imagine what it must be like to
see acres and acres of grave markers.  Sadly, I think we have forgotten
what happened only 50 years ago.  Europe is only just beginning to recover
from the aftereffects, and Russia and the rest of the former Soviet Union
will take a very long time to heal the wounds left from communism.  The
aftereffects will last for at least another 50 years, and really for
much longer than that.  Centuries from now, historians will look back on
World War II and see that it was THE turning point in history as we know it.
Now we have the former Yugoslavia, which it seems will just grow larger.
Eventually, IMHO, the samr thing will happen in China.
     Downsizing the military, base closings, major corporations making
sweeping layoffs, all this has to do with the aftereffects of the war
and the Cold War which followed as a direct result.  I hope my generation
(I'm in my 20's) has the sense to be able to deal with it, and to not
forget the lessons of WW II.  It would be sad to have to add to those
cemeteries overseas.  If everyone could just see them, it might make
people think twice.
     Hope I haven't rambled too much, but this is something I feel very
strongly about.

John Peterson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:24:05 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 27 MAY 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 27 MAY 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eleventh Air Force)
  In the Aleutians, Attu is covered by 1 B-25 flying ground support,
bombing and strafing troops and dropping photos taken on the previous day
to friendly forces, and by 1 B-24 and 6 P-38's flying air cover.  6 P-40's
fly an attack and reconnaissance mission to Kiska, concentrating on Little
Kiska and on the Main Camp area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In the Mediterranean, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF)
P-40's bomb the harbor defenses on Pantelleria Island and Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) P-40's attack targets on the S coast
of Pantelleria.
    In Sardinia, NASAF B-25's and B-26's hit Villacidro and Decimomannu
Airfields.
    The 111th Observation Squadron, 68th Observation Group transfers with
A-20's from Guercif, French Morocco to Nouvion, Algeria.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-24's and B-25's pound the Lae town area and airfield.
Other B-25's hit enemy forces at Labu and Jacobsens Plantation.
Finschhafen, Saidor, Kakakog, and Langgoer are hit by single-plane
strikes.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  [email-masked]                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:27:00 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re. Cemetaries

I for one find it interesting to read about places in Europe that I would like
to go but can't.  Some day I plan to return to Europe and retrace my dad's
path he took during the war. I am still working on getting all the info.  Also,
lately I have taken the opportunity to talk to WWII vets when I chance to find
one. Sometimes I know them, frequently I do not. There are less and less of
them around every year, and I would like to get as many first hand accounts no
matter how mundane(not everyone can be an Audey Murphy!).  On another topic,
I just finished reading the book "Up Front" by Bill Maudlin. I picked it up at
my local 1/2 price book store. I have been told, they made a movie of this book.
Can anyone verify this? It has quite a few of his Willie and Joe cartoons and
is an account of his time at the front. BTW, when did he die? Or has he?
Thanks,
Kevin Kamphaus [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 08:12:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lessons

Indeed I hope we have not forgotten the lessons learned.  While I
read of all the concern for the situation in Bosnia, and the seeming
instability in the area, we should not forget to look at the far east
where the People's Republic of China is spending a disproportionate
amount of money arming itself to the teeth.  From reading between the
lines of the China News Service, it would seem that the PRC is now
viewing itself as earning the inheritance of leadership in the new
'Co-prosperity Sphere' in the far east.  There are some real potential
problems:  Taiwan, the Spratleys, and Hong Kong's return to the PRC.

There is a sleeping giant......

Bill
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 08:25:45 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Enola Gay markings

This post amplifies the information provided by the National Air
and Space Museum in Washington, DC about the markings of the Enola
Gay.

The 509th Composite Group, consisting of the 320th Troop Carrier
Squadron with Douglas C-54s and the 393d Bombardment Squadron (Very
Heavy) with 15 B-29s arrived at North Field, Tinian, Marianas
Islands on 29 May 45.  It is interesting to note that the 393d was
equpped with B-29s built by the Glenn L. Martin Company at Omaha,
Nebraska instead of by Boeing.

The 509th was attached to the 313th Bombardment Wing (Very Heavy)
and all B-29s assigned to this wing carried a letter in a circle on
the vertical tail surfaces as an idenfication marking.  Initially,
the 509th applied a forward facing arrow in a circle to their B-29s
however, in order to keep the existence of this special group secret,
the markings were changed in Jul 45 to markings already assigned to
other groups of the Twentieth Air Force.  The markings applied were (1)
the R in a circle of the 6th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), 313th
Bombarmdment Wing (VH); (2) P in a square of the 39th BG (VH), 314th
BW (VH); (3) N in a triangle of the 444th BG (VH), 58th BW (VH); and
(4) the letter A without a geometric figure of the 497th BG (VH), 73d
BW (VH).  It is believed that each of these markings were applied to
three B-29s of the 509th so that when pairs of 509th aircraft flew
recon missions over Japan, they could not be identified as a unique
unit.  An expert can tell that some of the markings applied to the
509th aircraft are not identical to those applied to the "real" unit.

Another tipoff that these marking were false was the aircraft number
assigned to each aircraft.  All of the other B-29 groups in the
Marianas used aircraft number below 70 or 75 but the B-29s of the 509th
carried numbers between 72 and 95.  Known numbers are 72, 73, 77, 82,
83, 85, 86, 88, 89, 91 and 95.  The number was pained in the normal
size and position as other groups, i.e., 36 inches high on the rear
fuselage and 15 inches high just aft of the bombardiers's position.

On 6 Aug 45, the Enola Gay, B-29-40-MO, USAAF s/n 44-86292 coded R in a
circle and number 82, dropped the first A-bomb on Hiroshima; on 9 Aug
45, Bock's Car, B-29-35-MO, 44-27297 coded N in a triangle and number
77, dropped the second A-bomb on Nagasaki.

Sometime in Aug or Sep 45, the 393d reverted to it's original markings,
i.e., the forward facing arrow in a circle.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:36:43 CDT
From:    "D. Neff" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re. Cemetaries

I remember seeing Bill Maudlin on tv (it may have been 60 minutes) visiting
the soldiers during the gulf war.  So I think he's still around.  Does
any one know if he's still doing cartoons and if so, in what papers do
they appear?

+-------------------------+
|  David L. Neff          |
|  Univ. of Arkansas      |
|  Dept. of Agr. Econ     |
|  [email-masked]  |
+-------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:45:58 EDT
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S. Army Writing

I am trying to ascertain a detail regarding WWII memos and memorandums.
The question is subtle for those of you who've never written military
correspondence.  For officers in the USAAF, were they all considered to
be branched Air Corps, or did they retain their branches like
Quartermaster, A.G. except for flight crews.  My gut feeling is that
they are all branched Air Corps regardless of job.  Also, did those
assigned to an Army Air Force staff commanded by a General officer wear
General Staff brass, or Air Corps brass.

Secondly, is this correct for a signature block--

Snuffy L. Hangerblade
Captain, Air Corps

I do not have any references that confirm any of this.  Does anybody hav
e any references that would spell out WWII Army writing.

(The system I use sometimes compresses blank spaces, the Name on the
signitue block is one line above the Capt, A.C. line)

Thanks in advance,

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 07:51:07 EDT
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re. Bill Mauldin

I know Bill Mauldin did a display in 1982 at Jefferson Barracks.  I have
the poster, which will be framed and hanging in my dining room soon.  It
was done in conjunction with a second display with "Terry and the
Pirates".  Unfortunately, I wasn't reenacting yet and missed out on it.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 08:07:21 CDT
From:    Jean Miller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re. Cemetaries

There was a movie where Tom Ewell played one of the characters.  I don't
remember if the film was called "Up Front", but I can look it up when I
get home and find out.

Jean Spradlin-Miller
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 09:15:39 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Re. Cemetaries

        There was a movie where Tom Ewell played one of the characters.  I don't
        remember if the film was called "Up Front", but I can look it up when I
        get home and find out.

        Jean Spradlin-Miller
        [email-masked]

UP FRONT was a 92 minute black-and-white movie released in 1951
directed by Alexander Hall and starring David Wayne, Tom Ewell,
Marina Berti, Jeffrey Lynn and Richard Egan.  The sequel was BACK
AT THE FRONT, an 87 minute black-and-white film released in 1952.
The latter movie was directed by George Sherman and starred Tom
Ewell, Harvey Lembeck, Mari Blanchard and Richard Long and was
later retitled WILLIE AND JOE BACK AT THE FRONT after it was
released.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 17:01:59 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: SANTAYANA RECONSIDERED

  Oslo, May 27.  Given events in Yugoslavia and elsewhere, I think
we must reconsider Santayanas dictum or at least enlarge it.  What
about: in some situations, those who remember the past are
condemned to repeat it?  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 10:30:34 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Wrong war, please.

If we could return to discussion of World War II, please?  "Stealth" is
interesting and could have proved quite valuable in earlier days (almost
as valuable as Commanders who didn't understand radar ;-).

SUMMER PROJECT!

Anyone interested in compling a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for World
War II?  The top 10-100 questions most commonly asked in one file, made
avialable via gopher. This could be divided into ETO and PTO or any other
way that makes sense.

Anyone interested?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:31:06 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re. Bill Mauldin

From: Kurt Luginbyhl
I saw the Terry and the Pirates and had to comment.  My father Lt. Col.
Thomas T. Luginbyhl flew in WWII in B 17 Es.  His plane was Terry and the
Pirates so I was told.  My fathers middle name was Terrance.  Can anyone
help me find out if this is true?  My father was buried in Arlington
in November of 77.  He was Lt. Col T.T. Luginbyhl Ret. Dec.
Thanks......  Yours warmly... HAKL.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 17:37:22 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: CEMETARIES

  Oslo, May 27.  Thanks for the responses to my message about
cemeteries.
  FOR JOHN PETERSON.  There was no reason to apologize about your
message.  You were expressing your feelings, and these normally do
not organize themselves in a tidy fashion.
  As for forgetting, what worried me most about my Easter trip was
that the Germans are trying very hard to forget WWII.  My German
penpal and his wife joined us for two days.  He knew all about the
war, from reading.  She knew nothing, literally, because they do
not teach it at school.  I talked at the museum at Diekirch,
Luxembourg, to a young German who was doing research on the battle
of the bulge.  He commented that the Germans are busy forgetting
the war.
  Even more troublesome is the way in which the holocaust is being
rationalized.  One German has told me that it was no different than
what we did to the Indians.
  I am not saying that the Germans have not learned something from
the Hitler experience, but they want very much to put it behind
them.
  FOR KEVIN KAMPHAUS
  What outfit was your father with during the war?  Where in general
was he?
  UP FRONT by Bill Mauldin is good reading.  If, however, you want
to see what the war was like, read Ernie Pyle's BRAVE MEN.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 17:45:19 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CEMETERIES

John Peterson writes:
>...I can only imagine what it must be like to
>see acres and acres of grave markers.  Sadly, I think we have forgotten
>what happened only 50 years ago....
>...Centuries from now, historians will look back on
>World War II and see that it was THE turning point in history as we know it.
>...I hope my generation
>(I'm in my 20's) has the sense to be able to deal with it, and to not
>forget the lessons of WW II.

Interesting.  That's EXACTLY what people said about World War I - the great
war to end all wars, the turning point, etc, etc.  I have stood at Tyne Cot
Cemetery in Belgium, and the Menin Gate at Ypres and seen 100 000 names of
men who went missing in Flanders between 1914 and 1918.

The generation of the 1930's learned nothing and I very much fear that the
generations of the 1980/90's will learn nothing as well.  I was amazed at
the celebrations in the USA when the airforce massacred thousands of fleeing
Iraqi conscripts in 1991.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:[email-masked]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:44:47 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Listserv

Larry;

I'm unable to get to the listserver.... for some reason,  att insists it
doesn't know that machine.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
Quality Engineer            Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 10:49:14 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Just some light reading...

                   A VIEW FROM THE OTHER SIDE
                      Col. Hans W. Cloeter
                       Frankfurt, Germany

Night had laid its dark blanket over the valley  and  scarcely  a
sound was heard except the rumble from the nearby industrial com-
plex.

The little boy lying in his bed listened to the woman sitting  at
his side telling fairy tales.  He was awake waiting for his moth-
er to come home.  The friendly neighbor babysitting him  had  all
the lights turned off and opened the window.

The boy could see a rectangle of darkness when  suddenly  a  star
seemed to burst and shower its sparks all over the sky.

Immediately, air raid sirens began to wail  and  rumbling  explo-
sions came ever closer.

What the boy, aged three had seen, were the pathfinder markers of
Allied  bombers  and  his  first experience with the realities of
war.

The year was 1944 and the place a part of Austria  called  Styria
(one  of  the  seven  federal states of the Republic of Austria).
The valley is lined with villages and towns each having its plant
of  heavy industry and was, of course, frequently targeted during
those days.

The boy had been me and I still have a vivid recollection of that
evening  although none of being afraid; that came some time later
when we had to move to a farm nearby.  Dad was  a  counsellor  in
the  legal  department  of  one  of  the steel concerns there and
grandpa had just retired as managing director  of  the  plant  in
town where I was born.

I used to watch bomber flights coming  in  from  a  southwesterly
direction, presumably from Italy.  They would continue on towards
the northeast to join the river Danube which would guide them  to
Vienna.   As the war progressed, bombers began appearing from the
northwest.  The number of bombers kept increasing as the war came
closer  and closer to its end.  Usually we counted 24 bombers per
flight.

They were targeting an area of heavy industry near  the  city  of
Graz,  starting  at  Knittelfeld  and  running through Leoben and
Bruck to Semmerling.  These targets covered the  valleys  of  the
rivers  Mur  and Muerz.  Here, practically every town and village
had some sort of industrial plant, the center being  Leoben  with
its huge ore processing and steel milling facilities.

Watching these bombers fly overhead never frightened me, however.
In fact, watching the war progress in the air fascinated me!

A quarter mile from the farm house and anti-aircraft battery  was
nestled  in  the  woods.   We would see it fire from time to time
when they had locked on to an American or British bomber, but  we
never  once  saw  the soldiers who manned it.  I would also stand
outside and watch the contrails of dogfighting Britih and  German
fighters.   Some  of  these  aircraft  would crash into the hills
around us.

Later, my mother told me I  kept  pestering  her  with  questions
about  those  planes  doing their deadly stints right in front of
our noses.  I found them  much  more  fascinating  that  watching
sparrows  or  other birds.  Ironically, it was this interest that
laid the groundwork for my interest in aviation and career in the
airline  industry.   All  I  experienced was fascination -- never
fear.

But it was on a spring Sunday in 1945 while sitting down to lunch
when  we  heard the air raid sirens go off.  The adults shooed us
children into the deep cellar of the house.  I was angry, because
we  kids  were promised some dessert after lunch and were looking
forward to that rare treat.

Anger soon gave way to stark terror when we felt the shock  waves
of  the  exploding bombs less than a mile away.  I could feel the
explosions even down deep.  I know  that  I  almost  screamed  my
lungs out from a fear never before experienced.  Neither was that
fear ever never felt again - even during the last days of the war
when we had to retreat from the advancing Red Army.

The target, by the way, was a nearby railroad  bridge.   It  sur-
vived the war unscathed and is still standing today.

We had already packed all our belongings and set out in the small
hours  of the morning with the farmer and his family to go deeper
into the mountains.  The fear of  that  one  day  was  still  not
matched  even when the Russians caught up with us and returned us
to the farm.

There, a detachment of Russian soldiers led by a Major camped for
some  months  and  lived  off our supplies which, even on a farm,
dwindled fast.  When one of those soldiers -  a  young  farm  boy
from  the  Ukraine  with  a  son of his own - picked me up in his
arms, my mother nearly had a heart attack from fear of  something
happening  to  me.  But that guy just longed to hold a child like
his own in his arms and probably felt very homesick.

Months later, the Red Army retreated from that part of the  coun-
try and the British Occupation Forces took over.

After the war, Austria was split up among the Allied Forces.  The
eastern  states  including  Vienna  going to the Soviets with the
other four states falling under British, French and U.S.  jurisd-
iction.   Going  from one of the Western occupied states into the
Russian Zone meant crossing the so-called demarcation  line  with
special  passes  needed  which  were  issued  by  the Soviet High
Commissar.  The more stamps one had, the better it was!

Fear at that time was a constant part of life and it lasted until
1955  when  Austria  recovered  its sovereignty through the State
Treaty.

All this, however, is now history.  Former  enemies  have  become
friends.    The  little  boy  from  that  history  who  had  been
frightened by bombs dropped from U.S. B-17s has learned the  les-
sons of history and is now a member of the Confederate Air Force.

----

Hans Cloeter lives in Frankfurt, Germany today where his business
in  the  airline industry often takes him into Russia, the former
Soviet Union states and the U.S.  His family  ties  to  the  U.S.
goes  back  more  than  100 years.  Responding to the call of the
Southern Minnesota Wing's  membership recruitment campaign,  Hans
joined the Confederate  Air Force in 1993.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:56:53 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Army Writing

Tim,

Off the top of my head, you are correct.  The US Army Air Force was the whole
of the operation:  planes, crews, mechanics, support structure, etc.

The branch of the officers was Air Corps.

If I find anything in writing, I'll let you know.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:58:48 EDT
From:    Andree Webb <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CEMETERIES

> Chris said:
The generation of the 1930's learned nothing and I very much fear that the
generations of the 1980/90's will learn nothing as well.
 But what is the lesson from WWII ? Isn't it different from the lesson
 from WWI ? Doesn't WWII tell us that it is best to stop a Hitler bent on
 genocide early on ?

Andree Webb
Atlanta

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:32:00 CDT
From:    "Roger Safian, (708) 491-4058" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50 Years ago today?

Greetings,

    Have we lost our feed to the 50 Years ago today articles?  In the past
it seemed like they would come bunched a couple weeks at a time.  Does
anyone know what happened to them?  I really enjoyed them.

                                                    Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 11:57:00 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wrong war, please.

> SUMMER PROJECT!
>
> Anyone interested in compling a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for World
> War II?  The top 10-100 questions most commonly asked in one file, made
> avialable via gopher. This could be divided into ETO and PTO or any other
> way that makes sense.
>
> Anyone interested?

I'd be willing to work _with someone_ on such a project if there is
someone interested...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 12:12:47 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Listserv

>
> Larry;
>
> I'm unable to get to the listserver.... for some reason,  att insists it
> doesn't know that machine.

  That's why listowners make the big bucks.  I'll fix you up.

>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
> Quality Engineer            Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
>
Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 13:11:35 -0500
From:    Neal Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wrong war, please.

>
> If we could return to discussion of World War II, please?  "Stealth" is
> interesting and could have proved quite valuable in earlier days (almost
> as valuable as Commanders who didn't understand radar ;-).
>

  Not to deviate from the subject of WWII any further, but...

  I wasn't following the discussion that you jumped on, but why can't
you just delete the messages, like I did, of the topics that don't
interest you?  I know that you "own" this list, but let everybody have
a little fun.  I unsub'ed from the Adv Squad Leader game list because
of these kinds of issues and I'd like for you to unsub me from this
list too.

Later
Neal Smith
[email-masked]

P.S.  I would have sent this privately, but I couldn't find your
      e-mail address.  I didn't know if owner-wwii ...  would work.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 12:41:13 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CEMETERIES

> John Peterson writes:
> >...I can only imagine what it must be like to
> >see acres and acres of grave markers.  Sadly, I think we have forgotten
> >what happened only 50 years ago....
> >...Centuries from now, historians will look back on
> >World War II and see that it was THE turning point in history as we know it.
> >...I hope my generation
> >(I'm in my 20's) has the sense to be able to deal with it, and to not
> >forget the lessons of WW II.
>
> Interesting.  That's EXACTLY what people said about World War I - the great
> war to end all wars, the turning point, etc, etc.  I have stood at Tyne Cot
> Cemetery in Belgium, and the Menin Gate at Ypres and seen 100 000 names of
> men who went missing in Flanders between 1914 and 1918.
>
> The generation of the 1930's learned nothing and I very much fear that the
> generations of the 1980/90's will learn nothing as well.  I was amazed at
> the celebrations in the USA when the airforce massacred thousands of fleeing
> Iraqi conscripts in 1991.

WWI was a major turning point, but not to diminish it's importance to
history, it is WWII which created the world we live in today (but WWI
was a major ingredient to WWII by many methods).

WWII resulted in the largest human undertaking in history (no pun
intended!).  The loss of human life (and potential) is staggering as
well as the incredible technological advances and industrial construction.

But the legacy left behind is borders, politics and major world affairs.
Everyone has been touched by WWII in some manner.  The power centers have
been radically shifted and the primary functions of entire countries have
been either boosted, destroyed or completely changed.  Two super powers
emerged from the fray only to see one collapsing into pieces and the
other sometimes wonderin what's supposed to happen next.

This legacy, no matter what happens, will continue for a very long time.
The "ripple effect" of everything that happened in those six years will
continue to invade all future world events.

So, in perhaps most ways, WWII was the most major world altering event in
recent (and not so recent) history.   We are all still dealing with its
ramifications and implications on a daily basis.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 19:48:00 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: SUMMER PROJECT

  Oslo, May 27.  This struck me as an interesting project, and I fell
to thinking about what questions have been asked me about the war
and wondering if I could be helpful.
  I have come to the conclusion, however, that the suggestion must have
been addressed to teachers who teach about the war and hence hopefully
get some questions.
  As I search my memory, I cannot honestly remember anyone ever asking
a question about the war.  In fact, the first thing I learned on
returning to the US was that people did not want to hear about it.
In going through my letters, I found one complaining to my parents
that even the people at my artillery headquarters did not want to
hear what it was like at the front.
  Over the years, the only way I have been able to talk about the
war is to tell some of the funny incidents that happened.  Perhaps
this is one reason I wrote my book, to get at least a few people
to hear my story.  (I can add that the comments I have had so far
from people who have read it and the reviews here in the press have
been very gratifying.)
  Come to think about it, I have for some weeks been uploading stuff
here about my book and articles that are spin offs from it.  I
have had some technical questions about my computer article and
a few people have ordered my book, but I do not recall any questions
about the war.
  Let me be candid.  My message which has created the most response was
my last one about cemeteries, and the discussion soon drifted off
into speculations about Bill Mauldin - an interesting and more
comfortable subject.
  Thus, I am led to wonder how much interest the users of the list
really have in discussing World War II.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 12:44:09 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Re. Cemetaries

I always took the proximity of WWII vets nearby for granted.  My dad and
uncles served in both the Pacific and Europe, in all the branches.  Dad
will talk about most aspects of his service, except the liberation of
Dachau and Auhdruf Concentration camps.

One of the historical twists of his wartime experiences involved the three
other buddies he was playing gin with at Cornell on Dec. 7, 1941.  They were
all from Brooklyn, (but William Bendix wouldn't portray any of them) and my
dad and onbe of the others already had orders to report for pre-flight
training once they finished the Spring semester.  The father of one of them
was a contractor in Manila, and would be liberated from a Japanese POW camp
in 1944 by his son.  After PH dad didn't get into the AAF because he's color-
blind; so he ended up in the Signal Corps.  What made his induction inter-
esting, was the Army in its infinite wisdom was going to send an entire con-
tingent of Brooklyn boys, primarily Italian and Jewish to somewhere in the
deep, deep South.  However they did it, and dad hints that they had a sit-
down strike at the induction ctr., the Army decided to save on the railroad
costs, and sent them to Camp Drum and Ft. Dix instead.

All of them survived the war, dad was captured during the Bulge for a day,
and one of them, Al Jaffe had two destroyers sunk under him.  Up until a
few years ago when they some of them moved on to retirement in Florida, they
maintained a pretty regular card game every week.  Their maturity through
the years is demonstrated as they progressed from gin to poker to bridge.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 13:00:49 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: U-boat wreck

        In the Spring 1993 issue of Military History Quarterly (IMO,
a superb publication worth its subscription price) is an article on
a recently discovered U-boat wreck.  It's written by Barbara Benton.
I present in its entirety below.

        U.S. Navy and German historians are mystified as to the identity
of a World War II "Unterseeboot" found by divers last year some sixty-five
miles off Point Pleasant, New Jersey.  The silt-covered wreck, complete
with torpedoes, lies upright and essentially intact about 230 feet below
the surface.  Its conning tower lies to the side. [The accompanying sketch
shows the conning tower broken off, to the side of the U-boat, with a
gaping hole amidship as well.  The hull is still in one piece.  -Joe]
The mysterious wreck lures explorers of varying expertise, but diving
is hazardous because of depth and low visibility, and because the wreck
is filled with debris and hanging cables.  Thus far, three divers have
died.

        A ten-man commercial diving team based in Point Pleasant has
recovered numerous intriguing items -- including pieces of china imprinted
with the Nazi eagle and swastika, engraved flatware, gauge housings, other
hardware, and some human remains -- but so far nothing to positively
identify the submarine.

        Members of the Point Pleasant diving team combed some 10,000
antisubmarine-warfare reports from the National Archives and Navy
Historical Center and corresponded with a decorated former U-boat
commander in Germany who has conducted research from that side, but
because the voluminous records are incomplete and sometimes inaccurate,
conclusions are limited.  At best, they are able to speculate that the
mystery sub is U-boat 851, the only unaccounted-for vessel in the
formidable German fleet that terrorized Allied shipping throughout
World War II.  It left Kiel, Germany, in February 1944, carrying
seventy-five tons of mercury, twenty-nine tons of lead, spare motor
parts, and radio equipment for the German embassy in Tokyo.  By April
it had disappeared, probably torpedoed.  The question remains as to
what it would have been doing off-course along the coast of New Jersey.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Big Joe: What are you doing?
Oddball: Drinking some wine, eating some chesse, catching some rays.
Big Joe: Why aren't you up there fixing the tank?
Oddball: Hey, man, I just ride them, I don't know what makes them work.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 13:56:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wrong war, please.

> > If we could return to discussion of World War II, please?  "Stealth" is
> > interesting and could have proved quite valuable in earlier days (almost
> > as valuable as Commanders who didn't understand radar ;-).
>
>   Not to deviate from the subject of WWII any further, but...
>
>   I wasn't following the discussion that you jumped on, but why can't
> you just delete the messages, like I did, of the topics that don't
> interest you?  I know that you "own" this list, but let everybody have
> a little fun.  I unsub'ed from the Adv Squad Leader game list because
> of these kinds of issues and I'd like for you to unsub me from this
> list too.

I have to support Larry in this one.

We all deviate from time to time and it's enjoyable.  However, the
charter of the list is very clear and specific.  When the "deviation"
extends into a life of its own, it's usually time to try and quell it,
move it to email or move it to another discussion list (such as the
aircraft list).

For someone like me who reads and participates in both lists, the origin
of the discussion is almost invisible.  But when I focus on WWII-L, I
expect it to focus on WWII as that's what I'm taking part in researching
and preserving the memory of.  The ancilliary discussions have a tendency
to make the majority of readers "just kill off" the messages (which often
extend into everything received that day, or that week... When that happens,
the functionality of the list is temporarily lost.)

It's somewhat synonymous to the common Usenet cry "please move it to the
proper group."  All Larry is asking is that the discussion remains within
the scope of the charter.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 14:06:25 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wrong war, please.

> >
> > If we could return to discussion of World War II, please?  "Stealth" is
> > interesting and could have proved quite valuable in earlier days (almost
> > as valuable as Commanders who didn't understand radar ;-).
> >
>
>   Not to deviate from the subject of WWII any further, but...
>
>   I wasn't following the discussion that you jumped on, but why can't
> you just delete the messages, like I did, of the topics that don't
> interest you?  I know that you "own" this list, but let everybody have
> a little fun.  I unsub'ed from the Adv Squad Leader game list because
> of these kinds of issues and I'd like for you to unsub me from this
> list too.

  A mailing list has a charter and the listowner is supposed to keep the
list within that charter.  I tracked the thread long enough to know that
it was going beyond the charter and asked that it be dropped.  People with
small mailboxes or those who pay to access the nets want to get what they've
subscribed to get, a discussion of WWII and appropriate topics.

  I've had a very little to do as listowner since the membership have been,
very consistently, excellent people who have little need to be "prodded"
back onto charter.  This is the second time in a year that I've had to
exert my "ownership", a record that will hard to match on any list with
such potential volatile subject matter.  This is not to my credit, but to
the membership.

  As for "jumping", you must have missed the last time!

  To leave the list, send

unsub wwii-l

to

[email-masked]

>
> Later
> Neal Smith
> [email-masked]
>
>
> P.S.  I would have sent this privately, but I couldn't find your
>       e-mail address.  I didn't know if owner-wwii ...  would work.

   No problem, the subject matter needs to be cover once in a while.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 15:26:16 EDT
From:    Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wrong war, please.

        Anyone interested in compling a FAQ (Frequently Asked
        Questions) for World War II?

Sure, why not?  The answers might point to books, rather than give
thorough answers in some cases.  Here's a bash at some questions
(somebody keeping notes, I hope?), in no particular order:

        * How many casualties did the Russians take capturing
          Berlin?

        * What *did* happen to Hitler, Himmler, and the rest of
          the Bunker gang?  (I can even supply the answer to
          this one.)

        * (this one is esoteric, but did get some "play" on
          some list or other)  If the Germans had all these
          whizzo weapons (Me 262's, great tanks, missiles,
          jet bombers, etc. etc.), how could they lose?

        * What is Enigma, and how much did it *really* affect
          the conduct of the war?

... that's a start... (busy day, so I can't do too many...)

Charles

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 15:23:09 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <[email-masked]>
Subject: Addr: Summer Project

John Ausland has made some very striking comments concerning
whether we really WANT to discuss the war. It seems like lots
of people like to discuss technology and war machinery, and this
is indeed fascinating. Lots of us are sons and daughters of
WWII veterans whose father "never talked about it." Over the
years I've been able to piece together a few things from my
father, a Pacific Theatre veteran. His quote: "Anyone who had
very much to do with World War II does NOT want to be reminded
of it." He has spoken about corpses EVERYWHERE, mostly
civilians apparently, the true innocents of war. He talked
once about how he and other GIs had the job of bagging up
U.S. sailors' bodies as they floated off Leyte, lots of these.
He talked about atrocities committed by his fellow GIs, one man
shooting a old (civilian) man on Okinawa for sport, then jumping up
and down yelling "I got me a gook, I got me a gook!" And a few
other similar atrocities, one involving about 125 civilians who
were murdered by a U.S. airman as they fled on top of a hill
(no way they could have been mistaken for the enemy, Dad said).
He said the Marines he saw rotting in the ditches killed by their
own U.S. Navy's "short rounds" (when the barrels had been shot
too many times and became inaccurate) did not look like "the
Few, the Proud" to him. I asked him how he felt about seeing all
these things, and he responded, "When you've seen 20 thousand
corpses, what are a few more?" When we were in a watermelon
patch one August and saw lots of smashed, rotting, oozy
watermelons he said it reminded him of the army, where they
would be camped around dead Japanese, each corpse with one or
two huge bullfrogs sitting on it, gorged with maggots (they only
buried their own dead, but let the Japanese lay). These are
some of the things I've pulled out of my father after 37 years
I've known him. He NEVER wants to talk much about the army, but
still is very proud of being in the army. He alluded to the fact
that he once shot two fleeing Japanese in the back with his BAR,
and seems very disgusted with that fact, and probably would be
rather disgusted with me for repeating it (a taboo?). And to think that
he and millions more like him were boys perhaps 18 to 22 years
old when they saw all this, and did all this. My
dad always hated guns and thinks people who are interested in
guns are naive. But again, he is proud of being a private in the
U.S. Army, and in a way I will never be able to understand.
     I hope I haven't cast a pall over the LIST, but, yes, it
would be interesting to see if people would like to REALLY
discuss the war.
     Of the several lists with which I've been affiliated, WWII-L
is DEFINITELY the best one, and this is in part due to the LISTOWNER
who acts appropriately to keep the topics of discussion where they
should be. Thank you for this.
*******************************************************************
[email-masked]  Richard L. King

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 22:52:27 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: LIST AND WWII

Since this exchange may interest others, I am repeating these EMAIL
letters on the LIST.

Subject: SUMMER PROJECT (re.)
To: KARI::d_ausland_j
Date: Thu, 27 May 93 23:09:18 EET
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>   Thus, I am led to wonder how much interest the users of the list
> really have in discussing World War II.

To Americans, (and I am guessing that the list
is mostly Americans) the very name of the list
-- "World War II" -- pigeonholes the list as a
discussion of things and not of people.

Man's inhumanity to man is not a popular topic.

I am American, and I feel also that Americans
wish to turn away from such discussions.  There
is a feeling I think that such things as war are
optional, that life does not mean war: and that
those who have lived it need not bring it back
into the experience of themselves or of others.

I would be certain that soldiers coming back from
the Gulf, who had seen horror, do not receive the
opportunity to speak about it, and work thru their
feelings.  Even from wives and parents.  There are
of course exceptions in every culture, but as I say
I think those things known to be unpleasant are
avoided, no matter how wise or helpful it might
be to approach them.

best regards /fred

gollum::"[email-masked]"
LIST AND WWII
  Oslo, May 27.  Fred, thanks for your message.
  I think there may be a misunderstanding.  I am not talking so
much about the horror of the war, although there was enough of that,
but mainly what happened.  Who decided what and why?  What took
place as a result of the decisions?
  Since you refer a number of times to Americans, I wonder if you
think, because I am living in Oslo, I am Norwegian.  I am in fact
a retired American Foreign Service officer, who got a better offer
from a Norwegian woman than from the State Department.
  Regards, John Ausland
  PS  Since this exchange may interest others, I am posting it
on the list.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 17:08:21 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SUMMER PROJECT

>   Let me be candid.  My message which has created the most response was
> my last one about cemeteries, and the discussion soon drifted off
> into speculations about Bill Mauldin - an interesting and more
> comfortable subject.
>   Thus, I am led to wonder how much interest the users of the list
> really have in discussing World War II.
>   Regards, John Ausland
 I think there is interest. Look at some of the things that have flown around
the list in the last year.  A discussion about US Submarine operations that had
several of us pulling out our copies of Silent Victory and various first person
narratives.  The off and on questions about German Armor details; The almost
regular 'what was an LB-30?' question. The list is made up of people with a
variety of interests with the common thread being World War 2. Some are
interested in the weapons some in the politics and some in the first hand
experiences of others.  I know I stay tuned in because this is the most
knowledgeable group of folks on World War 2 that I have been associated with
since at least my days at VMI. Yes we get off the subject sometimes but I find
most of the threads on the list very informative and interesting to read. And
folks here are good enough that they 'keep me honest'. (That's a complement,
really :-)) I know that almost any mistake will be found and that I will be
politely called to task if I mess up. This is all what should happen in a good
discussion. We do have the problem that we receive messages in different order
and that there is a time delay that means we 'all talk at once' on some
questions.

Which brings me back to what do we put into a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions
File)?  The LB-30 question is an example of a FAQ. FAQs are generally things
that newcomers to the list ask or are curious about.  They help keep the same
questions from coming up time and again.They can also be used as an
introduction to the list for new folks.

I would propose that the following items be put into FAQs. These are presented
only as a starting point of things that I know have come up more than once, or
started a heavy discussion that was eventually settled with some conclusive
anawers.

1. What is an LB-30?  I think the article that answered it the last time it was
asked (about a week ago) would make a good answer.

2. What was the USAAF designation scheme? same for USN and IJN, ones could be
done on designation schemes for all major combatants

3. What was the USN ship designation scheme? (were Battlecruisers CC or CB :-))

We need to make sure that we get the answers to FAQs right, but that can be fun
too.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 16:30:29 CDT
From:    Daniel Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: FAQ list

How about adding these to the list of frequently asked questions:

How much did FDR, Hoover, etc. know in advance about the coming
    Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

How much information did the Allies have about the Death Camps before
    Normandy (or rather, before the first concentration camp liberation)?

When did the Western Allies first learn of Stalin's monstrosities,
    specifically the Ukrainian Terror Famine?  If we knew about these
    before the end of the war, why did we trust Stalin at Potsdam?

Why is it that Russia and Japan, despite their alliances, never declared
    war on each other?

and perhaps the most FAQ in the last few decades:

Why did Truman opt to use the Bomb on Japan instead of either 1) continuing
    conventional warfare or 2) using it in an open demonstration on an
    uninhabited isle as a threat of what could happen were Japan not to
    surrender?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 17:52:03 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: SUMMER PROJECT

>Thus, I am led to wonder how much interest the users of the list really
>have in discussing World War II.

John, I think that one of the "problems" here, and I may be wrong, is that
you are the rare participant who is a veteran of World War II.  I know there
are other veterans and active duty individuals on the list, but for most of
us, that war for all its significance and impact, is abstract.

I can believe that when you came home from Europe, public interest in details
was rare.  I was born in 1959, my three brothers between 1946-1952.  They have
no idea of what units my father was with, or what his geographic progress was
across the continent.  They have no idea what type of bomber our cousin "Little
Lenny" was a gunner on, or that he flew with the 8th. (my dad is "big Lenny")
On an important level their interest isn't as acute as mine was/is, but I think
dad didn't begin discussing his experiences until they passed from the realm
of recent history to reflective history.  When he returned from Europe his
interest was in a family and a profession.  I think that because his peers and
family served, as well as the rest of the nation he never saw it as unique.
What I find interesting, it that he doesn't have any freinds today from among
those he fought with; but he did and is still in contact with families of Frenchand Czech. resistance members he met.  As I posted earlier, he will not volunteer information about entering the camps, and he declined to attend the opening
of the Holocaust Museum in DC even though he was invited as a liberator.  This
takes mw back to my brothers; the two oldest had know idea that dad actually
was in that role.

I think the list members are very interested in the war, and we have discussed
moral implications; but the list of interests does vary.  I have found your
postings thought-provoking and well written, but I can only relate to the
Huertgen Forest on an analytical level.  My experiences in Lebanon were
different and certainly less frantic.  The single biggest difference is that
for me at the time, home was two hours away south by truck, 15 minutes by
helicopter; and I got home about once a month or more.  For you, home was
1800+ plus miles by ship.  Like my father you probably didn't get home until
it was over.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 18:38:30 EDT
From:    S214000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lack of interest

>Thus, I am led to wonder how much interest the users of the list
>really have in discussing World War II. I'm currently reading Daniel V.
Gallerys' autobiography and find it interesting, enjoyable to have his
prospective of the years leading up to and during WW II. I have read
autobiographies not just from WW II but Korea, Vietnam because I think
its beneficial, at least for me, to hear the little stories and events
that took place within the BIG picture. For me, it's hard to just walk
up to someone, whom I knew fought the battles, and ask what happened.
Because I afraid they won't talk about it, like my father, for whatever
reason. Therefore, I've resigned myself to finding the material and read
about the different experiences. But, yes I do have an interest on this
subject.

Mike Wilson
Northern Michigan University
Marquette, Michigan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 18:27:27 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII-l Charter

Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs.
     Single axis")
REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.)
INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.)
DOC (Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War,
     Speeches, Treaties, etc.)
GEN ("Let's find a category for this.")
TRV (For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.)
VET (For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans)
HOME (For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.)
NOST (For Nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.)
ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
       Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate
       an "ADMIN" article.)
WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.)
MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.

Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.

1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      [email-masked]
Hawkins Grad Hse. Box 337            JEWELL@PURCCMACE
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571

#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  JEWELL@PURCCMACE   [email-masked]     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 18:55:34 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: FAQ, the prequel.

How the FAQ idea got started.  I was on the phone yesterday to the Naval
History Center, talking to John Reilly about the WWII Naval Chrononlogy
(Chrono Team, stand-by for mail on the subject) and he mentioned that
they didn't have the manpower to answer all their requests for information.
The Chrono. Team will solve part of this when we get the Chronology
done and avialable via gopher, etc., but we still don't address the issue
of "Where do I start looking for information?"  If we can answer the most
common questions and give references to point the way to further clues,
we will be saving students, librarians, researchers and instructors a
boost.

More thought will produce a clearer picture of what we want out of a FAQ,
but I'd think that this list has the best resources in the world to do
it.

Possibly we'd have something like:

Who were the Allies?  Who were the Axis?
(Here we'd list both sides and note any that changed sides and when.  Two
or three broad references of varying degrees of "intensity" would then
be listed.

This may be a good idea, or it may be impractical, but I think it's worth
a shot.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 May 1993 03:38:38 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: THE LIST

  Oslo, May 28.  I have read the various responses to my message about
the list with great care and interest.  There is a great deal I could
say in respone but will try to be brief.

  First, I got what I think was an EMAIL message:

Date:         Thu, 27 May 93 16:08:55 CDT
From: Daniel Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Re:  post to WWII list
To: John Ausland <KARI::d_ausland_j>

>I'm new to this list, and so am not familiar with the book you authored,
which you mentioned in a recent post to the WWII list without mentioning
its title.  Could you please tell me the title, and perhaps the publisher
so that I could check it out?

REPLY:  You evidently did not see the book flyer I posted earlier.  To avoid
burdening the list, I am sending it to you by EMAIL, as I will be glad
to do to anyone else who asks for it.

>BTW, in reference to your question about how much we really want to
discuss the war:  I'm in my early 20s, and don't feel really qualified
to "discuss" the war.  I (and perhaps quite a few non-posting lurkers)
am here to *listen*, eager to hear personal recollections of a world
shaping event that was over more than 25 years before I was born.

REPLY:  No one expects you to be an expert.  As a student, however, you
will profit by asking for more information when someone says something
which interests you.  Do not worry about appearing uninformed.  If you
were not, you would not have asked the question.

FOR RICHARD KING

All I can say is that your father had a really tough war.  My brother
was a Marine in the Pacific and has similar experiences.  He also does
not like to talk about it.

This brings up the question about veteran's willingness to discuss
the war.  My three children have in recent years accused me of unwilling-
ness to discuss the war when they were young.  I do not remembered being
asked about it, but perhaps I am wrong.  Their reaction to my book has
been interesting.  One boy tells me he does not want to hear about the
war.  When I sent my daughter some chapters for comments on drafting,
she commented on a couple but then fell silent.  When here at Christmas,
she admitted she found it too painful to read.  My other son, who is
a classicist and has read a great deal about war, has taken it more in
his stride and helped me extract some useful microfiche on the Huertgen
battle from the Library of Congress.

Of the comrades I have asked for comments on chapters or for information,
only one has refused, on the advice of his doctor, to discuss
the subject.  He was one of my forward observers and had some tough
exeriences.  Furthermore, he carries on his conscience having shot a
fleeing German in the back.

FOR RICHARD KAPLAN

I am aware that there is a gap between myself, a veteran of the war,
and other users of this list.  (Are there any other veterans?  If
there are, could they identify themselves?)

One of my purposes in writing my book and joining this list is to try
to help close this gap.

FOR LARRY JEWELL

Thanks for posting the charter.  I had not previously seen this.
As to the FAQs, it looks like one way of focusing discussion and could
be useful.  After looking at the suggestions so far, I think that if
you are going to get anywhere, you will have to provide more guidance
regarding categories and levels of generalization.

Let me give you an example.  One could ask: what was Operation Cobra?
(It was the bombing which preceded our breakout from Normandy.)  A
more sophisticated question would be: why were so many of our men
killed and wounded by Cobra bombs which fell short?  (The answer to
throws light on the planning process and commander relationships.
Perhaps someone is familiar with the literature on this subject, but
one of the list readers of my book could also give you the answer.)

Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 20:39:24 EDT
From:    Zel Eaton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re. Bill Mauldin

sOM Somewhere I have seen a photo of Terry and the Pirates (the
aircraft) perhaps CAF collection Robert G.  is that true?

Zel eaton
> From: Kurt Luginbyhl
> I saw the Terry and the Pirates and had to comment.  My father Lt. Col.
> Thomas T. Luginbyhl flew in WWII in B 17 Es.  His plane was Terry and the
> Pirates so I was told.  My fathers middle name was Terrance.  Can anyone
> help me find out if this is true?  My father was buried in Arlington
> in November of 77.  He was Lt. Col T.T. Luginbyhl Ret. Dec.
> Thanks......  Yours warmly... HAKL.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! Zel Eaton  (Bitnet) AD04@NEMOMUS (Portal) [email-masked]   !
!            (Internet) [email-masked]      !
!            (Voice) 816-665-1832 /\RCMA (MO-048) SHARKHUNTERS   !
!            INTERNATIONAL, Past Member Board of Dir. /\ CAF Col.!
!            #12855/\ "LOS NUMEROS" - ON LINE- Contributing Ed.  !
!            Me . . . I speak only for myself . . .              !
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 21:59:00 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: What is your favorite FAQ?

Food for thought:

What questions have you answered over and over again?  What questions have
you never found a satifactory answer for?

One of my favorites is the wooden fins on the torpedoes used by IJN at
Pearl Harbor.  The fins were to stabilize the torpedoes while they
were in the air, but countless times I've seen it said that they were
for use in the water.

A harder one:

Why did the Western Allies stop at the Elbe?

And:

Why did Stalin get free reign in eastern Europe at Yalta?

Questions not easily answered, but pointers to the sources would same
the enquiring mind a lot of frustration.

The FAQ's can be graduated, elementary questions in one (basic questions
such as the heads of state for the major countries) and more complex or
little known in later sections or completely different sections.

Still rambling through this idea, waiting to see how it forms, if at all.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 May 1993 22:00:45 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FAQ, the prequel.

> How the FAQ idea got started.  I was on the phone yesterday to the Naval
> History Center, talking to John Reilly about the WWII Naval Chrononlogy
> (Chrono Team, stand-by for mail on the subject) and he mentioned that
> they didn't have the manpower to answer all their requests for information.
> The Chrono. Team will solve part of this when we get the Chronology
> done and avialable via gopher, etc., but we still don't address the issue
> of "Where do I start looking for information?"  If we can answer the most
> common questions and give references to point the way to further clues,
> we will be saving students, librarians, researchers and instructors a
> boost.
>
> More thought will produce a clearer picture of what we want out of a FAQ,
> but I'd think that this list has the best resources in the world to do
> it.

Gopher is a wonderful tool for all those who are on the internet.  It's a
lousy tool if you're not.  But gopher is probably the best place to start.

As far as "where" to put an archive, I can probably donate the space as well
as the gopher server.  Of course, the volatility of this is the same as for
anyone who works for an employer.  I'M not going anywhere, but budgets have
surprised me before (no, I'm not expecting anything here.  :-)

Perhaps the concept of "FAQ" isn't quite what we want.  What would be nic,e to
have is a _simple_ and manageable information tool.  For this, you want
something that is established in a tree structure.  Gopher is great for this,
plus you can set "bookmarks" that let you skip all the preliminary stuff.

This means that a structure has to be developed up front.  You want to start
with the most basic information and then break apart from that.

> Possibly we'd have something like:
>
> Who were the Allies?  Who were the Axis?

Using that example, there would then be a tree beneath "Allies" that listed
the country of each ally.  Below that would be the common demographic
information, involvement, troops, casualty figures, etc. etc. etc.
Unit structural breakdowns can follow, etc.

What's nice about this system is that you can focus on a narrow area.  The
areas that are lacking become obvious and hopefully inspire someone to do
the research needed to fill the holes.

You probably don't want to get into a lot of major nitty gritty details up
front.  Add those later.  There are a lot of high schools and elementary
schools joining the net.  Stories, information resources, etc. would be
very valuable to them.

> (Here we'd list both sides and note any that changed sides and when.  Two
> or three broad references of varying degrees of "intensity" would then
> be listed.
>
> This may be a good idea, or it may be impractical, but I think it's worth
> a shot.

We do have one opportunity -- with all the information sources available,
this could become the most accessible to the educational market.  (And
once dynamic enough, who knows?  NFS grant, anyone? :-)

As noted, I'm willing to at least initially provide space and the gopher
server and support.  I'm even willing to help put this together, but I
certainly don't have the time to do it on my own (not to mention I'm
certainly no expert...)

[By the way, this can be seamlessly linked into the 50YA and USAAF daily
summaries...]

It's a grand idea.  But it's also a grand undertaking.  Is there a small
cadre of rabidly dedicated people who will give up all to keep this going?
(I already do that with aircraft restoration at the CAF, so I have some good
information sources as well -- and zillllllions of photos :-), but no more
time...)-:

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 May 1993 to 27 May 1993
*************************************************