Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 May 1993 to 29 May 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 30 May 1993 00:00:30 -0400

There are 14 messages totalling 587 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Italian Merchant Raiders (FWD)
  2. SANTAYANA RECONSIDERED (2)
  3. TRV: DIFFICULTY WITH THE BRITS
  4. ADMIN: Revised Charter & Info.
  5. TRIV: TROUBLE WITH BRITS
  6. Santayana Reconsidered (2)
  7. POL: Pre-WW II / Post-Cold War
  8. FAQ, more thoughts.
  9. ADMIN: Double Oops.
 10. TRV: Trouble...
 11. GEN: WAYS OF LOOKING AT WWII (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 06:58:19 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Italian Merchant Raiders (FWD)

Forwarded from MILHST-L, please respond to Joe directly if you have
information (posting to the list is ok as well but I don't think he's
a member.)

Date:    Fri, 28 May 1993 09:13:24 -0400
From:    Joe Bialek <[email-masked]>
Subject: ITALIAN MERCHANT RAIDERS, WWII

DOES ANY OUT THERE KNOW OF ANY SOURCES COVERING THE CONVERSION OF MERCHANT
SHIPS FOR COMMERCE RAIDING BY THE ITALIAN NAVY IN WWII?  I CAME BY SOME INFO.
IN PASSING IN A VOLUME ON GERMAN RAIDERS BUT HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GATHER
ANY DETAILS AS TO HOW THESE VESSELS WERE CONVERTED, TONNAGE, ARMAMENT
TACTICS, SUCCESSES (IF ANY), NARRATIVES, MAPS, DETAILED SHIP DRAWINGS
PHOTOS ETC.  THANKS
                JOE BIALEK
                SMITH COLLEGE
                NORTHAMPTON, MA. 01063

                [email-masked]

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 07:14:04 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SANTAYANA RECONSIDERED

>
>   Oslo, May 27.  Given events in Yugoslavia and elsewhere, I think
> we must reconsider Santayanas dictum or at least enlarge it.  What
> about: in some situations, those who remember the past are
> condemned to repeat it?  Regards, John Ausland
>
This is one of the prime reasons I started this list.  Early on I mentioned
that "I study war as I would a snake, is it coiled and ready to strike again?"

The localized "brush wars" that are springing up since the collapse of the
USSR are merely continuation of conflicts that were raging before the Red
Army stepped in to suppress them after WWII. The "pot" was still boiling
but the lid had been screwed down too tightly.  The result, for a student
of history, was inevitable.  Prof. Ingrao, here at Purdue, warned us in 1991
that Yugoslavia would explode when the communists lost control of the country
since it was an artificial creation that was highly unstable.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 22:19:39 +1000
From:    Ray Fairall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: DIFFICULTY WITH THE BRITS

 The ideal area could have only been the local cricket pitch! The football
field would have been expendable, but no mere war, national emergency etc
would have been sufficantly important to sacrifice the cricket pitch.
Ray Fairall.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 15:53:22 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SANTAYANA RECONSIDERED

From: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
>
> The localized "brush wars" that are springing up since the collapse of the
> USSR are merely continuation of conflicts that were raging before the Red
> Army stepped in to suppress them after WWII. The "pot" was still boiling
> but the lid had been screwed down too tightly.  The result, for a student
> of history, was inevitable.

I think the idea is that the nuclear standoff and the partitiion
of Europe "froze" history.  And now it restarts.  But due to those
accumulated pressures, it is restarting in a most unpleasant manner
as it turns out.  Russia is suffering a political nervous breakdown,
but quite non-violent.  Most of its former minions are not so fortunate ..

Fukuyama was full of generic Western self-congratulation of the sort
seemingly designed to inhibit critical self-analysis in the West.

History has not ended.  It is just beginning.

And so .. what does the record of man's inhumanity to man, as expressed
on a massive, industrialized scale in WW II, have to tell us now ?? ..

--
* Fred Baube (tm)    * "Government had broken down.
* [email-masked]  *  I found the experience invigorating."
* 60 28' N  22 18' E *  -- Maurice Grimaud, Paris prefect of
* #include <disclaimer.h>                 police in May 1968

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 07:59:53 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Revised Charter & Info.

I've added "housekeeping" information onto the end of this file.
Please keep a copy for future reference.

Regards,
Larry J
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
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MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
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      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.

Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.

1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
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If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)

Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "[email-masked]"
or "[email-masked]" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <[email-masked]>

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      [email-masked]
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234

#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   [email-masked]     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 15:52:34 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIV: TROUBLE WITH BRITS

  Oslo, May 29.  Ray Fairall wins.  Yes, it was the cricket pitch.  The
locals would lend us their buildings and their daughters.  They would
even have the wives do the officers' laundry, but there are limits even
to British patriotism.
  You get the brass ring.  (Sorry about the silver dollars, but we
Democrats never keep our promises when they involve money.)
  Regards, John Ausland
  PS  I see you are in Australia.  Please send me an EMAIL message and
let me know where you are.  I spent five happy years there in the fifties,
at our embassy in Canberra and as American Consul in Adelaide.
        John C. Ausland CIS: 73240,2704
        Internet: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 15:52:49 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Santayana Reconsidered

  Oslo, May 29.  Larry, I happen to have spent two years at our embassy
in Belgrade in the 1950s.  A favorite subject of reports was what would
happen after Tito.  Our expectation was that the country would fall
apart in due course.
  What we did not foresee was that some of the Serbs would become so
brutal.  I talked recently with the last Norwegian Ambassador to Belgrade
recently, and he said that had surprised him also.  We all knew so many
nice Serbs.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 17:02:06 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL: Pre-WW II / Post-Cold War

Continuing in the vein of my last posting ..

As the Eastern Bloc disintegrates, there has once again been
a "Springtime of Nations", in the words of Timothy Garten Ash.

Can one say that this was the situation in Europe immediately
before the war ?

What regional historical processes were interrupted by
the rise of and the aggression of fascism in Germany ?

There must be *something* here to learn.

Perhaps this is straying from the list, anyone interested
 please feel free to write me directly ..

/Fred

--
* Fred Baube (tm)    * "Government had broken down.
* [email-masked]  *  I found the experience invigorating."
* 60 28' N  22 18' E *  -- Maurice Grimaud, Paris prefect of
* #include <disclaimer.h>                 police in May 1968

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 09:33:33 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Santayana Reconsidered

>
>   Oslo, May 29.  Larry, I happen to have spent two years at our embassy
> in Belgrade in the 1950s.  A favorite subject of reports was what would
> happen after Tito.  Our expectation was that the country would fall
> apart in due course.
>   What we did not foresee was that some of the Serbs would become so
> brutal.  I talked recently with the last Norwegian Ambassador to Belgrade
> recently, and he said that had surprised him also.  We all knew so many
> nice Serbs.
>   Regards, John Ausland
>
I think the only indication of the troubles to come that most people ever
got was the clues in the movie "Force 10 From Navarone".  (I think that's
the one, where one of the partisans is a Chekist?)

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 12:20:07 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FAQ, more thoughts.

 John was kind enough to point out that I had left a command out of the
updated Intro., namely how to return to normal mail from digest.  This is
done by using the "mail" command, same as you would for restoring from
"nomail".  I just tested this and it works, so I'll add it to the Intro.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 12:32:38 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Double Oops.

This was sent out under an erroneous subject line and I think it's
important enough for those who are opting out of the FAQ discussion to
have a chance to see it.
>
>  John was kind enough to point out that I had left a command out of the
> updated Intro., namely how to return to normal mail from digest.  This is
> done by using the "mail" command, same as you would for restoring from
> "nomail".  I just tested this and it works, so I'll add it to the Intro.
>
> Larry J
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 12:38:27 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Trouble...

Since no one has mentioned it, (or I missed it) my first thought was that
large flat areas in England would make very nice landing fields for planes
and gliders, unless they were *mined*, something that would make it less than
ideal for drilling anyone but the "punishment squad" :-).
(Of course I could be reading too much about Rommel's Asparagus lately.)

BTW, I'm keeping the the 10 silver dollars, no matter who wins :-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 23:13:44 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: WAYS OF LOOKING AT WWII

  Oslo, May 29.
  FOR LARRY JEWELL
  On reflection, I do not think I deal adequately with this exchange
between us, when I limited my reply to Yugoslavia.
>   Oslo, May 27.  Given events in Yugoslavia and elsewhere, I think
> we must reconsider Santayanas dictum or at least enlarge it.  What
> about: in some situations, those who remember the past are
> condemned to repeat it?  Regards, John Ausland
>
This is one of the prime reasons I started this list.  Early on I mentioned
that "I study war as I would a snake, is it coiled and ready to strike again?"

The localized "brush wars" that are springing up since the collapse of the
USSR are merely continuation of conflicts that were raging before the Red
Army stepped in to suppress them after WWII. The "pot" was still boiling
but the lid had been screwed down too tightly.  The result, for a student
of history, was inevitable.  Prof. Ingrao, here at Purdue, warned us in 1991
that Yugoslavia would explode when the communists lost control of the country
since it was an artificial creation that was highly unstable.

Larry J

  JCA COMMENT:  I wonder if I understand you correctly.  You are not so
concerned with the conduct of the war as its consequences.  Having just
spent two years writing a book about the war in Europe, you will under-
stand that I came to the list preoccupied with the conduct of the war.
On the other hand, having spent nearly half a century as an official and
writer dealing with the consequences of the war, I have no objection to
discussing these also.  I should note, however, that the way in which
the war was conducted had implications for what followed it.
  Let me state my approach briefly.  WWI undermined the imperial system,
and WWII destroyed it.  WWII ended with the US scattered all over the
world.  The Soviet Union was initiatally content with licking its wounds
and consolidating its new empire.  Its leaders then decided that this
was not enough, and they went for becoming a global power.  The trouble
was that everywhere they went they ran into us.  This led to a power
struggle which ended in the collapse of the Soviet Union and a greatly
troubled US.  It also allowed the resurrection of a number of quarrels
which had been suppressed.  (Your point.)
  This paragraph could lead to a lengthy discussion, but I for one think
it belongs in another list.  Perhaps a better approach would be to discuss
the conduct of the war but go beyond this to examine the implications
of the way in which the war was conducted for the postwar world.
  Let me take just one example at a high strategic level to
illustrate what I mean.  Suppose FDR (Marshall) had decided on a strategy
which emphasized defeating Japan first.  Just imagine what effect this
could have had on the outcome.  For one thing, the bomb might have
been dropped on Germany.
  I am not suggesting we discuss this but simply use it to illustrate
the interconnection between the way in which the war was conducted
and the situation we had to deal with after the war.  There are many
other examples.
  If I have misunderstood you, I welcome correction.  It would, however,
be helpful to me to know: WHAT, IF ANY, QUESTION IS IT WE ARE TRYING
TO ANSWER?
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 May 1993 17:15:38 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: WAYS OF LOOKING AT WWII

I think that if we took a poll, we'd find about 200+ ways of looking at the
war on this list.  We'd also find 200+ purposes being on the list.

Personnally, I'm interested in the political maneuvers that took place
prior to the US entry into the war, Navy matters of all stripes, and the
"Eastern Front."

I've seen conversations flow by that I had little interest in, but which
generated dozens of messages and quite a bit of "heat" in the process.
Other threads have been windows on to new views of the war for me.

I guess I'm trying to say that we no mission and every mission on this list
and the people who get something out of it stay, while those who don't move
on to other areas.

I hope that everyone has had at least one question answered or found a clue
to the possible answer.

The "FAQ" will be a general framework for information on the war.  I'm
currently working on several projects which have basic information about
the war; the US Navy's Chronology of World War II, bios and specs for all
the major combatants in the Pacific on Dec. 7, 1941, and a pending project
that will digitize several volumes of the the Army's "Green Books."

I am completely indifferent to size.  This project may fit on a CD-ROM, or
on several.  I may get to see it finished, but I'm highly doubtful that
I will ever see the end of the project, though I hope to see the end of
phase one.

Two types of information will go into the FAQ; that information that is in
the public domain, and pointers, references and reviews of copyrighted
materials.  The public documents can go into the FAQ whole, and the foot-
notes will report of other sources of information on the subject.  I have
"The 'Magic' Background to Pearl Harbor" in five volumes on my desk.  This
contains all the relevant decryptions, but finding a particular passage in
it is NOT easy.  On disk this would be a "snap".  The Army Green Books
are in 78 volumes.  The Chronology alone is 600+ pages.  Searching for
the name of the battalion that held the left wing on Bataan would be
no fun.

This information is setting on library shelves, with pages being ripped out
so someone can have a "cool" picture to decorate a locker, out of reach
of many people who could use it.  Our members outside the US have an even
harder time finding US source documents, just as I had a hell of a time
finding Chamberlain's speech to Parliament on September 3, 1941.

I've started converting this information, as anyone who logs into "byrd"
can see.  I welcome the help of any interested party and I ask those of you
who can help to do what you can on the subject of your choice.  It will be
a job that is unpaid and beyond any payment, since you will get little or
no direct recompense, just the knowledge that the job was done to help
beat back the darkness a little, to bring ever more light on the subject
and maybe help someone somewhere find a way to make wars and conflicts
"history".

I hope some of this has made sense.

Larry J

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 May 1993 to 29 May 1993
*************************************************