Subject: WWII-L Digest - 20 Jul 1993 to 21 Jul 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 00:00:19 -0400

There are 19 messages totalling 1011 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WANT: More Uniform Info (Russian)
  2. KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND (2)
  3. USAAF 21 JUL 43 (4)
  4. Aircraft deployed life boat?
  5. The Garry Owen (2)
  6. History Network
  7. KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view (5)
  8. hi (2)
  9. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Jul 1993 23:45:48 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: More Uniform Info (Russian)

I find myself in possession of at least one complete (or nearly complete)
WWII Russian uniform.  More parts on the way (enough to put together a
parade dress uniform).

I'm looking for detailing info.  Does anyone have any good books or
resource suggestions for photographs, diagrams and -- if possible --
details on Soviet WWII uniforms?  (Air Force in particular?)

Details would also include proper colors and design of things like the
belts, boots, etc.  What kind of sidearm would an _officer_ carry in
the field and anyone have any sources where one could pick up a
replica sidearm (or a de-armed one that can be restored to acceptable
appearance?)  Badge detail, stuff like that.

I am looking for a source for the boots.  I know that modern cavalry/
riding/horse-show boots are VERY close, but I also know that East
German uniforms are beginning to flood the market in some places.  The
East German boots are close enough to be considered authentic.  Any
good sources for CHEAP boots?  (Once they hit the dealers, the price
sky rockets -- They may be able to buy them for $5, but will sell
them for $50.  Ick.)

Email preferred to the address below as the technical trinket details
are probably not of general interest to the list.

(By the way -- the pants and shirt both fit perfectly -- no tailoring
needed -- not even hemming.  Cool.  I even have a driver now, since I
clearly outrank the only other Soviet uniform in the bunch... :-)

[Weird... I'm finding it easier to put together a Soviet officer uniform
than a U.S. one -- Norwegian is proving to be nearly impossible, without
an enormous amount of cash... Oof.]

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 12:34:23 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND

  Oslo, July 21.  Thanks to Fred van Wetten and Tom Cardoza for your
July 20 messages.
  Fred, I had never thought about Kohl's not being eligible for that
gathering.  Of course it would have to be von Weizsaecker.  Strange
that no one has mentioned that before, to my knowledge.  I plan to use
this point in my IHT article, giving you credit for thinking of it.
  Tom, there is a staff in Heidelberg which is doing the planning for
various anniversaries, and they certainly include the bulge.  The
sensitive one will be Paris, because of the dispute over who liberated
it.  (I deal with this in my book.)
  You raise an interesting point about whether there will be any
events on German soil.  I have tried to stimulate some interest in
the Huertgen Forest but so far with little result.  The Germans say
they have no interest in recalling this battle but are open minded
to US proposals.  I took this up at the 4th Infantry Division reunion
early this month but evoked no enthusiasm.  (This was in sharp
contrast to the emotions which emerged over Paris.)
  As to the Soviet Union, there were German military present at the
anniversary of Stalingrad.  Regards, John A.

*******************************************************************
* John C. Ausland               Tel: +47 22 14 17 68              *
* Land Productions              Fax: +47 22 16 30 92              *
* Sondreveien 4, Entry 2        CIS: 73240,2704                   *
* 0378 Oslo, Norway             Internet: [email-masked] *
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:13:44 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 21 JUL 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 21 JULY 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-40, Curtiss
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine
  Wellington, Vickers (RAF)

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 9 B-24's bomb Kiska Island targets, includ-
ing the runway, North Head, and Main Camp area where fires are observed.
Poor weather cancels other scheduled missions.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, about 20 B-25's bomb Randazzo and P-40's escort C-47's to
Licata and return.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    During the night of 20/21 Jul, Wellingtons of the Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) hit Crotone Airfield and the Naples marshal-
ling yard in Italy; Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) light
bombers hit motor transport convoys in the Randazzo, Sicily area. During
the day, NASAF B-17's bomb Grosseto Airfield, Italy.
    On the ground in Sicily, US Rangers seize Castelvetrano and the
airport; the US 82d Airborne Division takes San Margherita and the US 3d
Infantry Division takes Corleone; the US 45th Infantry Division, pushing
NW, takes Valledolmo; and the US 1st Infantry Division clears Alimena.
In the British 30 Corps area, the Canadian 1 Division takes Leonforte.
    HQ 31st Fighter Group transfers from Ponte Olivo, Sicily to
Agrigento, Sicily.
    HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and it's 84th Bombardment Squadron
(Light) transfer with A-20's from Soliman, Tunisia to Malta. The 307th
and 309th Fighter Squadrons, 31st Fighter Group, transfer with Spitfires
from Ponte Olivo, Sicily to Agrigento, Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands in a series of sorties in support of ground
forces, 22 B-25's, 50+ USAAF and US Navy fighters, and 170+ US Navy dive
bombers blast positions in the Bairoko area on New Georgia Island; 135
tons of bombs are dropped.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, 50+ B-25's again thoroughly pound the Madang area;
other B-25's hit the junction of the Gori and Ioworo Rivers and the
village of Bogadjim; and B-26's bomb barges and jetties W of Voco Point.
Single B-24's bomb Finschhafen Airfield, New Guinea and the town of
Rabaul on New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago.
  The 66th Troop Carrier Squadron, Fifth Air Force, arrives at Port
Moresby, New Guinea from the US with C-47's. The squadron will begin
aerial transportation in the theater on 27 Jul.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  [email-masked]                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:21:59 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Aircraft deployed life boat?

I did a little fast checking last night regarding the Air-Sea
Rescue (ASR) B-17's and B-29's used to deploy life boats.
According to my sources, it was originally planned to modify 150
B-17G's for this role but only 12 were actually modified as
B-17H's; they were redesignated SB-17G's in 1948.  When operating
in a combat zone as they did in WWII and the Korean War, the
aircraft retained their defensive armament; most had to be
retrofitted for the Korean War.  There were also a handful of
TB-17H's used for training in dropping the lifeboat.

About 16 B-29's were modified as SB-29's and my source indicates
that some operated in the Western Pacific in 1945 along the route
that the B-29's took between the Marianas Islands and Japan.  They
also soldiered on after the war.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:31:32 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND

I agree completely with Mr. van Wetten.  Pres. Von Weissacker is a man of
integrity, and more important, he is the head of state.  Kohl as PM is
"only" the head of the government.  I know its a somewhat obtuse argument,
but I'm not responsible for the way parliamentary democracies establish
their hierarchies.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:40:59 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The Garry Owen

you also might be able to record it off of "They Died With Their Boots On",
the Flynn or Fairbanks movie about Custer.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:47:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: History Network

For those of you new to the list, here's information on how to access
the History Net's server.  Documents of historical value and electronic
journals are available from this source (the WWII-L digests can be accessed
through this method or by ftp from byrd.mu.wvnet.edu.)  The instructions
below will direct you toward Marshall University's section, where most
of the WWII files can be found.  (Check "maritime" for file on Naval
History, and usaaf for the fly-boy stuff :-).

To access the files at Marshall University's Historical Archive site,

telnet to HNSource.cc.ukans.edu

login: history

Select Resource: Databases

Select America and Africa.

Instruction for using ftp available on request.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:15:45 +0100
From:    Mike Hoffmann <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view

Hello!

I've been following the discussion about whether or not Kohl, other
German politicians or other Germans (military or civilian) should
participate in the June 6, 1994 "celebrations".

As a German I had thought it better to hold back, but after some
thinking, I find I might add a bit.

I myself am definitely no friend of that self-righteous, bloated fatso
(called "der Dicke" even in his minstries :-) that we happen to have as
a Chancellor. But opinion about a politician is marginal. Whether you
happen to like or dislike a politician, be he Clinton, Jelzin, Mitterand,
Major or Kohl is of secondary importance.

He is the leading politician. The position of the head-of-state, the
Bundespraesident v. Weizsaecker is only representative. Comparable to
the British monarch, I would say. This has been designed that way ever since
the desaster of the Weimar Republic. But most of you know that well.

So, the question as to who should appear at the memorial act at the beaches
of the Normandy, should be related to what politicians and representatives of
other countries appear. If Clinton and Mitterand appear, then of course
the peer head-of-state of any other invited country should appear.
If the queen shows up, then v. Weizsaecker is the choice.

It has been talked about whether it would be appropriate to invite any
German representatives at all, due to the possible sensitivity of the
survivors.

Sorry, while I am certainly the last to deny the pains that memories of
these grievous times that have been brought on by the Nazi invasions of
its neighbors brings, in this case I must ask as to "who worries about the
sensitivity of the Germans".

Not be cared about? They were the "baddies", the conquerors who lost,
they brought in on them all by themselves? And so on?

Excuse me, are we living in the 90ies or in the vengeful post-war 40ies?

As has been mentioned even the Russians who have suffered incomparably more
than the Western Allies, have invited German representatives to the
memorial days for Stalingrad. This from a country that has suffered in like
manner as can only be compared to the Holocaust. Again, while I by no means
intend to diminish the memory of the fallen on the Western fronts, the
oft-found (and in the discussion of this subject, IMHO, extreme)
exxageration of the valor and suffering of the Allied combattants is
hurtful and one-eyed to the extreme to the dead of the Poles, the Soviets,
the victimes of the Holocaust - and I must also say the German fallen.

If the memorials held in the Normandy are to memorize those who suffered to
bring Europe back its freedom and those who suffered by being led to their
deaths by a criminal and atrocious "government" (... and - as the French
government is just now finally facing - the latter did not just include
Germans and its allies, but also regimes like Vichy or the Ustasha, who
were only too happy to support Himmler's SS in their genocide) then I
applaud this. Otherwise, especially the French, in one-eyed denial might
side very close to hipocrisy.

But to hold "celebrations", even re-enactments of the battles all the way
to the Rhine, then I can only wonder if some people have indeed not learned
what that catastrophe brought on by the Germans and their Nazi leaders
really meant.

In case you wonder, yes, I also despised the memorial for Sir "Bomber" Harris -
while I would have completely agreed with a site of memorial for the
men (& woman) of the Bomber command, who have sacrificed their lives to
bring the Nazi terror to its knees.

As I've said, we are living in the 90ies, and we should be shocked that
seemingly war and genocide are again becoming a means of choice for petty
dictators and the pursueing of political, nationalistic and racist goals.
The modern, free democracies of *today* - and that does include GErmany -
who fought as enemies then, should unite to memorize and make clear that
these events should never happen again.

To celebrate war&battles that should by todays standards be despised and
those that pursued them, I can only call obscene.  There is nothing to
really "celebrate". The dead should be mourned, not celebrated.

Mike

--
Mike Hoffmann - Internet Administrator, Siemens-Nixdorf AG, SNI SU AP 1123
INTERNET: [email-masked]
"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:23:03 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Garry Owen

"They Died with Thier Boots On" stars Errol Flynn but of course.  Their
is a scene where a jubulant Custer meets a limey in a saloon who introduces
him to the song.  A good hollywood movie in te the old tradition.
Too bad the Natives did'nt have more victories.  <:{  HAKL

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 15:57:06 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view

I would like to comment on Mike Hoffmann's message and announce
myself to the group.  I have been lurking for a couple of weeks
and have had not much opportunity to join in.  Who am I?  My
name is Richard Cummings, and I am Director of Security for
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty in Munich.  I have lived in
Munich for the last 13 years.  Before that I worked for the
U.S. government in Boston.  I graduated from Boston University
in 1971 with an A.B. in Soviet and East European Studies, and
did graduate work in Munich and later at Boston College.

>From my experiences living and working here in Munich, I have to
say that I agree with most of what Mike had to say.  Germany in
the 1990s is not the Germany of almost 50 years ago.  One really
has to live and work here to experience the political and social
system created from the ashes of WWII. I am not saying forgive
and forget what happened, nor am I diminishing the horrors of the
war, but I guess I am trying to say that there is a new
generation in Germany in political and economic control of a
thriving democracy.  Kohl does not need to attend any anniversary
celebration to get re-elected as I read in an earlier posting.
There is no viable candidate
the SPD side to challange him.  If he wanted to attend, he was
not doing so for cheap political gain.  I cannot speak for him,
nor would I presume that I could, but maybe just maybe he was
thinking of attending the anniversary to show the United States
and other European nations, that Germany in the 1990s is ready
and willing to be part of the Western democratic system.  Germany
has for the first time sent troops outside its terrority to fact
combat in Somalia.  Germany has a recent past to be proud of,
and a not so recent past that brought dishonor to Germany of
50 years ago.  Should the anniversary be thought of as only
a political meeting, than I have to ask why even have it?

A little rambling I know, so I'll stop and regards to all.

--==oo00oo==--
[email-masked]
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 09:55:51 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view

after reading your thoughtful reply I have only one thing to offer and to ask.
Are the ceremonies next year at Normandy a celebration? or are they a
Commemeration?  We at the National Museum of Natural History have had an
exhibit titled "Seeds of Change" commerating the facts of the effects of
1492. Columbus, Cristobo Colon, Or just plain Chris.  A great many people
did not understand at first what the meaning and intention was.  The
Director of the project Dr. Herman Viola emphasized the CHANGES since
1492 in the Americas.  Many of these changes were not positive as we all
know genocide and disease are not pleasant occurances.  Really I'm not
being sarcastic.  Our cultures feel a need to celebrate some events such
as independence and to commerate others such as an event like Columbus Day.
Our government however schedules these day to be convenient unto themselves.
I hope that next years events will be a commemeration honoring the war dead.

Sincerly, Hans Alan Kurt Luginbyhl
          Smithsonian Inst.
          Nat. Mus. of Natural Hist.
          ADP 202-357-1955
          Washington D.C.

"Proud that my father served in WWII in the Army Air Corps and the Air Force."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 10:12:57 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view

A good letter, and one difficult to know how to respond to (kept complete
below), raises good questions about commemorations, celebrations and
remembrances.

As part of the CAF, and whose parents suffered for years under occupation
forces, I have my own insights and perspectives -- as we all do.

There are people who simply want to relive their victories or the defeats
of others.  There are many who can't shake the 40's, but there are many
things that also should not be shaken even if extremely painful.

To let 1994 and 1995 pass is to do a disservice to history, even if it
does possibly hurt or offend some people.  To say "let's just let the
history pass" may solve some of the uneasiness or pain of one group of
people but increase the pain of another by essentially telling them they
are less important.

As an organization, we fly aircraft, build museums and develop educational
programs for the purpose of keeping the memories alive.  If you've ever seen
many of these demonstrations, visited the museums or taken part of the
educational programs, you will notice that there is a clear allied bent to
them -- no surprise, being 95% in the U.S. :-), but you will also notice
something else -- none of them deal with a "goodie vs. baddie" or talk about
"how we crushed the evil people of <yourchoice>."

The importance of remembering WWII and the people who served, fought, lived
and died under it is to remember why it happened, what it was for and how --
given all the knowledge so you won't forget -- to PREVENT it from happening
again.  In war, there are no clear innocent combatants -- all have some
measure of belief in their actions and part in the events leading up to the
cataclysm.

The days where one neighbor, without reason, justification or need, brutally
attacks another.  Today, everything has a sequence of events of which all (or
at least most) parties have some involvement in bringing about.  Learning and
remembering those events helps make it possible to recognize it in the
future.

But remembering and understanding what the _individual_ faced will help make
the horrors of war more realistic and again, help further the need and want
to prevent these actions from happening again.

Battlefield recreations are not a celebration of one groups victory over
another.  They are demonstrations that bring an image -- albeit incredibly
tame compared to the real thing -- to life.  That image may be exciting,
intriguing and a whole lot of fun.  But that results in the desire and
excitement to learn more -- to read, research and understand.

Today, nearly all of the warring parties are friends.  Germany and Japan
are friendly allies and cooperative partners.  The Soviet Union has
disintigrated and wants to become part of this community.

It is therefore difficult, sometimes, to stage a recreation, remembrance or
create a museum, display or memorial that puts Germany and Japan in the
position of aggressor, enemy or "evil."  Some things I do not agree with.
The memorial to Bomber Harris leaves me with mixed feelings.  Yet, I do not
condone that a person be forgotten because today the actions are not
"politically correct."  The Axis soldier fought with just as much need and
dedication as the Allied soldier.  What motivated both sides?

It is not wise to forget the atrocities committed upon certain people.  To
do so would be to state that the importance of protecting a friend's feelings
are more important that remembering the millions who were killed and the
reasons that were behind it.

These next couple years are going to be EXTREMELY painful for many.  There
is no way to prevent it, nor should extreme measures be taken to try.

Germany has a lot of painful history and memories.  So does Japan, Italy,
France...  So does Poland, Norway, Russia, England...  There are a lot of
survivors who have a lot of sensitivities...

However, the most important aspect of these next years is not to relive the
victories of one over another, but to remember those who died, what they
stood for, why they died and why it happened.  This means that it is important
to deal with all sides and all issues -- painful though they may be.  What
_were_ the valid points of the Axis side vs. those of the allied?  Why did
this event happen and why couldn't it be prevented.  Once we are in it, what
happened -- from positive and unbearable.

Commemorations (not celebrations) should be encouraged everywhere.  From
Normandy to Dresden.  From Pearl Harbor to Nagasaki.  From Iwo Jima to
the Bulge.  What happened here and _why_ did it happen?  And: What are we
going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?

To do anything less doesn't do justice to the _history_.  To forget is to
throw away all everyone sacrificed and anything we might have learned from
it.  The cost was just too high.  If we don't remember and learn, all we did
was waste a lot of resources in terms of human attitude, ability, cooperation
and lives.

> Hello!
>
> I've been following the discussion about whether or not Kohl, other
> German politicians or other Germans (military or civilian) should
> participate in the June 6, 1994 "celebrations".
>
> As a German I had thought it better to hold back, but after some
> thinking, I find I might add a bit.
>
> I myself am definitely no friend of that self-righteous, bloated fatso
> (called "der Dicke" even in his minstries :-) that we happen to have as
> a Chancellor. But opinion about a politician is marginal. Whether you
> happen to like or dislike a politician, be he Clinton, Jelzin, Mitterand,
> Major or Kohl is of secondary importance.
>
> He is the leading politician. The position of the head-of-state, the
> Bundespraesident v. Weizsaecker is only representative. Comparable to
> the British monarch, I would say. This has been designed that way ever since
> the desaster of the Weimar Republic. But most of you know that well.
>
> So, the question as to who should appear at the memorial act at the beaches
> of the Normandy, should be related to what politicians and representatives of
> other countries appear. If Clinton and Mitterand appear, then of course
> the peer head-of-state of any other invited country should appear.
> If the queen shows up, then v. Weizsaecker is the choice.
>
> It has been talked about whether it would be appropriate to invite any
> German representatives at all, due to the possible sensitivity of the
> survivors.
>
> Sorry, while I am certainly the last to deny the pains that memories of
> these grievous times that have been brought on by the Nazi invasions of
> its neighbors brings, in this case I must ask as to "who worries about the
> sensitivity of the Germans".
>
> Not be cared about? They were the "baddies", the conquerors who lost,
> they brought in on them all by themselves? And so on?
>
> Excuse me, are we living in the 90ies or in the vengeful post-war 40ies?
>
> As has been mentioned even the Russians who have suffered incomparably more
> than the Western Allies, have invited German representatives to the
> memorial days for Stalingrad. This from a country that has suffered in like
> manner as can only be compared to the Holocaust. Again, while I by no means
> intend to diminish the memory of the fallen on the Western fronts, the
> oft-found (and in the discussion of this subject, IMHO, extreme)
> exxageration of the valor and suffering of the Allied combattants is
> hurtful and one-eyed to the extreme to the dead of the Poles, the Soviets,
> the victimes of the Holocaust - and I must also say the German fallen.
>
> If the memorials held in the Normandy are to memorize those who suffered to
> bring Europe back its freedom and those who suffered by being led to their
> deaths by a criminal and atrocious "government" (... and - as the French
> government is just now finally facing - the latter did not just include
> Germans and its allies, but also regimes like Vichy or the Ustasha, who
> were only too happy to support Himmler's SS in their genocide) then I
> applaud this. Otherwise, especially the French, in one-eyed denial might
> side very close to hipocrisy.
>
> But to hold "celebrations", even re-enactments of the battles all the way
> to the Rhine, then I can only wonder if some people have indeed not learned
> what that catastrophe brought on by the Germans and their Nazi leaders
> really meant.
>
> In case you wonder, yes, I also despised the memorial for Sir "Bomber" Harris -
> while I would have completely agreed with a site of memorial for the
> men (& woman) of the Bomber command, who have sacrificed their lives to
> bring the Nazi terror to its knees.
>
> As I've said, we are living in the 90ies, and we should be shocked that
> seemingly war and genocide are again becoming a means of choice for petty
> dictators and the pursueing of political, nationalistic and racist goals.
> The modern, free democracies of *today* - and that does include GErmany -
> who fought as enemies then, should unite to memorize and make clear that
> these events should never happen again.
>
> To celebrate war&battles that should by todays standards be despised and
> those that pursued them, I can only call obscene.  There is nothing to
> really "celebrate". The dead should be mourned, not celebrated.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Hoffmann - Internet Administrator, Siemens-Nixdorf AG, SNI SU AP 1123
> INTERNET: [email-masked]
> "A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
> Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
> hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
> of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien
>

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:25:42 +0100
From:    Mike Hoffmann <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: KOHL VERSUS MITTERAND - a German view

> thriving democracy.  Kohl does not need to attend any anniversary
> celebration to get re-elected as I read in an earlier posting.

To which I might add, that in this one case, he could certainly not be accused
of trying to appease the far-right electorate.

Maybe...
Mike

--
Mike Hoffmann - Internet Administrator, Siemens-Nixdorf AG, SNI SU AP 1123
INTERNET: [email-masked]
"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 19:38:05 EDT
From:    Gotta love the summertime! <[email-masked]>
Subject: hi

hello all....
how are you ?

I have a question : What good WWII museums are there
on the eastern US ? (i think wwii-l had a list..
can anyone send it to me ? thanks)

Arnaud Bouis
(in New England at the moment)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 19:48:16 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 21 JUL 43

On Wed, july 21st,  Jack McKillop wrote:

>     On the ground in Sicily, US Rangers seize Castelvetrano and the
> airport; the US 82d Airborne Division takes San Margherita and the US 3d
> Infantry Division takes Corleone;

And were called thereafter the "Godfather Division" :-).

Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
[email-masked]
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 21:01:43 -0500
From:    Sandra Villarreal <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 21 JUL 43

Is San Margherita a correct spelling?

On Wed, 21 Jul 1993, Steve Alvin wrote:

> On Wed, july 21st,  Jack McKillop wrote:
>
> >     On the ground in Sicily, US Rangers seize Castelvetrano and the
> > airport; the US 82d Airborne Division takes San Margherita and the US 3d
> > Infantry Division takes Corleone;
>
> And were called thereafter the "Godfather Division" :-).
>
> Steve Alvin
> Dickinson State University
> [email-masked]
> **********************************************************************
> *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
> *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
> **********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 21:04:31 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

We've had a rush of new members to the list, so I'll repost the Introduction.
Keep a copy of this and it will answer most of you questions about the
day-to-day operation of the list. (I'll repost this as often as needed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs.
     Single axis")
REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.)
INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.)
DOC (Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War,
     Speeches, Treaties, etc.)
GEN ("Let's find a category for this.")
TRV (For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.)
VET (For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans)
HOME (For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.)
NOST (For Nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.)
ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
       Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate
       an "ADMIN" article.)
WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.)
MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC  (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives)
      should be posted under this flag.))

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.

Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.

1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.

Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from you own account rather
than having me add you to the list.  This allows the software to confirm
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Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution.

SUBSCRIPTION INFOMATION:

ALL Messages are to go to:

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Send the following commands  in the body of the message.

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set wwii-l nomail

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set wwii-l mail

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set wwii-l mail

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(Ack will send you a note saying "your file has been succesfully distributed,
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To retrieve logfiles for WWII-L send mail to [email-masked] or
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with this message in the body:

get wwii-l log9207c

This file will contain all the postings sent to the list in the third week
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The files are held for two months and broken down by seven day periods (which
usually don't coincide with the calendar "week".  Thus you might see this
kind of entry

WWII-L LOG9207A  (for 01-07 July, 1992)
WWII-L LOG9207B  (for 08-14 July, 1992)
WWII-L LOG9207C  (for 15-21 July, 1992)

You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into ubvm.cc.buffalo.
edu and CD to WWII-L.  The files are in ascii format and the machine is case
sensitive.

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)

Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "[email-masked]"
or "[email-masked]" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <[email-masked]>

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      [email-masked]
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234

#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   [email-masked]     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 21:03:15 -0500
From:    Julio Matos <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 21 JUL 43

       THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, i WILL NOT REPEAT THE CLASS.

On Wed, 21 Jul 1993, Steve Alvin wrote:

> On Wed, july 21st,  Jack McKillop wrote:
>
> >     On the ground in Sicily, US Rangers seize Castelvetrano and the
> > airport; the US 82d Airborne Division takes San Margherita and the US 3d
> > Infantry Division takes Corleone;
>
> And were called thereafter the "Godfather Division" :-).
>
> Steve Alvin
> Dickinson State University
> [email-masked]
> **********************************************************************
> *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
> *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
> **********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Jul 1993 23:25:02 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: hi

> hello all....
> how are you ?
>
> I have a question : What good WWII museums are there
> on the eastern US ? (i think wwii-l had a list..
> can anyone send it to me ? thanks)
>
>
> Arnaud Bouis
> (in New England at the moment)

Arnaud,

I got your letter about two weeks ago

I don't have the list handy but will see if I can dig it up.

Aberdeen Proving Grounds ( Just north of Baltimore Maryland) is open every day
but monday. It is a must see, Armor & ordinance heaven.

Uss Intrepid is in the New York City area. I don't have any details.

Washington Navy Yard in DC and the Smithsonian Air & Space museum should have
some interest.

Marine Corps Air & Ground Museum at Quantico ( Just south of DC) I've never
been there but hear it is good

USS North Carolina in Wilmington NC again I don't have details.

USS Yorktown and other ships at Charlestown Soth Carolina, again no details.

Call me at work ( Toll free call) 1-800-873-8237 when customer support answers
ask to be transfered to me.

-- Bob Smart               Net - [email-masked]
   Verdix Corp.            Fax - (703) 318-9304
   205 Van Buren           Phone - (703) 318-5808
   Herndon, Va 22070

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Jul 1993 to 21 Jul 1993
*************************************************