Subject: WWII-L Digest - 10 Jul 1993 to 11 Jul 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1993 00:00:35 -0400

There are 9 messages totalling 383 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MISC: French transport system
  2. German combat worth catagories
  3. WWII-List
  4. German Combat Worth Catagories
  5. WWII casaulties
  6. GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR
  7. Mississippi Flood
  8. Mississippi Flood and WWII (2)

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Date:    Sat, 10 Jul 1993 23:19:10 -0700
From:    Thomas Cardoza <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MISC: French transport system

Bill Mauldin had some intersting commentaries on the "French"
contributions to the allied transport system. They appear in "Up Front."
Incidentally, I saw that book recommended along with Ernie Pyle's "Brave
Men" some time ago on this list.  I suggest Mauldin's "The Brass Ring" for
a much more candid version of certain events, especially those off duty
moments.

TC

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Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 07:51:57 EST
From:    Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German combat worth catagories

>
> Scott,
> If Category I units were those capable of combat on the Eastern front, I
> would be interested to know if OKH considered the Western Front (after 6
> June 1944) to be "Category II."  In other words, does the Kampfwert system
> reflect a German perception of the West as being significantly less
> demanding or equally demanding to the East.  What did Categories II and
> III signify?
>
> Tom Cardoza

One of the "Green Books", Cross-channel Attack, has two chapters on German
preparations for invasion.  The status and equipage of the troops on the "West
Wall" are discussed extensively.  I'll move these near the top of the que and
send them to "byrd" this week.

Larry J

BTW, thanks, Pat Hughes, I got your letter with the missing pages, don't
remember if I've said thanks yet.

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Date:    Wed, 7 Jul 1993 20:21:02 +0100
From:    Tom Holloway <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII-List

Just saw your append to soc.veterans.  I was reading it to
see if there was anything relevent to WW2 and there you were!

I run a charity for children who are hearing-impaired or
speech-impaired and as part of that run Education Exchange
projects to encourage them with their general communications.

Here's something we are putting together for September to
May 1994.  Might you be interested in helping us with it?

 +-------------+  +------------------------------------+
 | MEMORIES OF |  | Moderator - Tom Holloway           |
 | WARTIME     |  | CAMPUS 01:CLK001                   |
 +-------------+  | Internet [email-masked]  |
                  +------------------------------------+

     "Those that do not learn from the past are
      condemned to repeat it"; George Santayana.

 More than 2,000,000 (two million) young people passed
 through England during the years 1943 and 1944.  They came
 from America, Australia, Canada, Ceylon, Fiji, France,
 Papua, Poland...  so many countries.....  They found an
 England quite different from the one we know today.

 Four people who lived in that time will be available to
 share the experience of their everyday lives. They are:-
 THE SCHOOLBOY; THE LAND-GIRL; THE SOLDIER; THE NURSE.

 They will NOT be waving flags, or glorifying war. They
 WILL be paying testimony to those who quietly endured
 and sometimes lost.

 We would like children everywhere to ask Senior Citizens
 who were in England during those years to tell their
 impressions and experiences and to send them to
 [email-masked].  Perhaps old friends will find
 each other again.  Perhaps they will make new friends -- of
 a different age and a different country.

 As part of this project we shall have regular online
 discussions on the St Johns University, New York, UNIBASE
 system.

+--------------------------+
! Tom Holloway             !
! [email-masked] !
+--------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 15:51:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Combat Worth Catagories

I stand corrected from my earlier post on German "kampfwert" ratings; A
catagory IV division was the highest and a I, the lowest.  Someone else asked
if the Germans also differentiated between combat intensity on the various
fronts.  In fact they did--A catagory IV division was one that could was
capable of fighting on the the Eastern Front.  Perhaps a Catagory III division
was good enough for front line service on the Western Front, but only quiet-
sector or rear area duty in Russia (I am not familiar with the criterion for
making the distinctions).

This raises the question of whether combat was more destructive on the Eastern
than Western front, and if so, why?  It occurs to me that the Germans
considered Eastern front combat more demanding because of the nature of Soviet
tactics.  Although the Russians used large masses of artillery to rend holes in
the German lines, Soviet artillery was notoriously slow to displace and calling
for fire support was a quick way for a Soviet officer to end up in a penal
battallion clearing minefields...Thus, Soviet OMG's were forced to rely on
direct fire support--tanks and dedicated assault guns--to make up for this lack
of firepower.  They were also among the first armies to equip their infantry
formations with SMG's to bolster their firepower.  On of the reasons Zhukov's
counterattack before Moscow failed to encircle Heeresguppe Mitte in Dec-Feb '41
was because the losses in the summer campaign forced Soviet troops to rely on
mortars for fire support; thus they didn't have sufficient combat power to wipe
out the German igelstellen.  The upshot of this is that the Soviets relied on
infantry and direct fire attacks where the Germans and Western Allies woud use
massed and accurate artillery and air support.  Hand to hand infantry
firefights are naturally going to be expensive in terms of lives.  An
interesting statistic I read a few years ago in SPI's old "Russo-German War"
study was that while German artillery inflicted on the order of 70-80% of
Russian combat casualties, Soviet tubes accounted for only about 50% of German
losses.  Unfortunately the work was not footnoted, so I never did discover
where these figures came from.  While this may be interpreted as a disregard of
human life on the part of the Soviets, I might point out that is was a
manifestation of the old Russian concept of "interchangibility of fire."  Where
it came from is unclear, but Marshal Suvorov was a confirmed believer in the
concept as his bayonet charges against French troops in Italy in 1799 ran
contrary to the developing spirit of firepower, but succeeded brilliantly
anyway.  For Soviet tacticians, using infantry attacks in depth as a substitute
for artillery support was a natural adaptation--but it also rendered Eastern
Front battle excessively bloody.

But this also brings up the question of why the Germans considered infantry
combat on the Eastern Front as more destructive than facing the overwhelming
air and artillery assets of the Allies on the Western Front in 1944-45.  The
Allied way of making war was (and is) predicated upon trading time and material
for lives.  Massive amounts of firepower used against the enemy saved lives in
avoiding costly infantry attacks.  Weren't the Germans taking huge casualties
from this firepower in the West?  I tend to disbelieve this notion.  While the
Allies viewed firepower as a killing tool, both the Germans and the Russians
tended to see it as more of a suppresive tool.  Artillery fire did indeed cause
casualties; indeed caused the largest proportion of the casualties, but
troops learned how to protect themselves from its effects.  I suspect that the
Allies used fireower to neutralize the German defenders until they could roll
over them with their conservative infantry/tank tactics.  (Remember, the Allies
did not execute a single operational encirclement until the Ruhr pocket in 1945
--Falaise doesn't count because it wasn't sealed until most of the German
troops in it had escaped).  Thus, combat on the Western Front was seen by the
Germans as less bloody than that on the Eastern Front.

Just a thought.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 18:07:31 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII casaulties

Posted to milhst-l:
>
> I ran across the following (unattributed) factoid recently,
> and have a hard time believing it:
>
>         "The wealthy died in greater numbers in [WWII],
> proprotionately, than did the poor".
>
> any comments?
>

     Some thoughts (not supported by *any* data):

     1) I would expect peasants to fare better in war than urbanites:
peasants are accustomed to a harsher life, perhaps able to "extract"
more from a difficult environment.

     2) In an occupied nation where hostage-taking occurred, the hostages
seized by the occupying power were likely to be well-known, socially
prominent individuals.

     3) Soviet forces 'liberating' Eastern Europe would have had a
strong predisposition *against* prewar socioeconomic elites.

     All of the above are guesses. Please demolish those which
can be demolished.

     Rob George
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 20:50:15 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR

Greeting, friends.

As a (fellow?) member of the World War II Studies Association, I'm glad to
  see this usergroup up and running -- and, having finally figured out how to
  sign on to a usergroup without the physical presence of our Academic
  Computing staff, to be signed on finally.

GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR is a SIMPLE Russian Front/Great Patriotic War
  boardgame which was published on ERIC as an instructional aid for
  students middle school level and above.  It nonetheless contains all the
  essential decision-making variables of the campaign -- less such elusive
  intangibles as morale.

Have any of you used it?  in or outside of class?

The ERIC microfiche number is ED 287 786.  The ERIC social studies clearing-
  house will be issuing the 2d edition (eventually).  The 1st is fine,
  though.

In Spring 1991, I received a letter from N. Nachaev -- head of general
  secondary education in the USSR.  He asked for a copy of the game to
  review and consider for possible mass production/dissemination.  For a
  mere $69 I Federal-Expressed a copy to him, pointing out the political
  delicacy of a game about the death of 27 million people -- sobering
  dedication and considerable interest-stimulation/educational-benefits
  of the game notwithstanding.  Then the (attempted) Coup hit.  I've heard
  nothing back.  (For all I know, he's selling pencils now.)

Lou Coatney
Western Illinois University, Macomb, IL

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 20:54:03 EDT
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Mississippi Flood

I realize this is totally unrelated to our topic.  If you aren't
interested in this, please delete it.

As many of you probably already know, the Mississippi River is flooding
the middle of the United States like it never has before.  It is called
the flood of the century.  I grew up in Quincy, IL, on the river, and
have seen several major floods, however none are the scope and scale of
this one.

Today, me and several friends flew the Mississippi from Hannibal, MO to
Keokuk, IA.  We departed Kirksville, MO airport in a Cessna Skyhawk and
turned towards Hannibal.

Approximately 20 miles away from Hannibal we could see the flooding.  As
we flew over Hannibal, we could see that the downtown area was dry,
however the southern portion, called Bear Creek was under about 5 feet
of water, with the flooding extending several miles into the town.  The
western end of the Hannibal bridge was completed under water.  The
railroad bridge, usually about 12 feet out of the water, showed the surf
ace of the river about even with the decking.

Flying north, we approached the area east of Palmyra, with had flooding
from backwater of the Mississippi and flooding from the Fabius River
extending about five miles in-land.  On the opposite bank, the water
extended across the flood plain 3 miles to Marblehead.  We could see
bulldozers busy reinforcing the levies, and people walking the levies to
insure any boils or damage is spotted quickly, and dealt with.

Coming up south to Quincy, Lock and Dam #21 had the locks completely
under water--to include the buildings at the locks.  The water on the
west side of the river had expanded about half a mile.  The Quincy
Memorial Bridge was under several feet of water, while the Bayview
Bridge, the only bridge still open between Burlington, IA, and St. Louis
, showed lots of sandbagging to keep this only route of commerce open.
Quinsippi Island, where I attended a World War II display three weeks
ago, was under several feet of water, with the tops of the buildings
showing.

Flying north, we reached the area near Wyaconda State Park in Missouri.
The park was under water, with the line of water extending about 5 miles
in-land to within several hundred yards of US Highway 61.  As we
continued north, we saw LaGrange, Missouri.  The entire LaGrange
business district was under water, with it extending about four blocks
in-land.  On the Illinois side, National Guardsmen were sandbagging.

As we approached Canton, MO, it became very evident of the heavy price
that Meyer, Illinois has paid.  After gallant efforts at saving the town
for over a week, last Thursday the levy broke, and all that could be
seen of this nice little town was it's grain elevator, and the tops of
several multi-story buildings.  The flooding extended about ten miles on
theIllinois side of the river.  This flooding extended for about 20
miles along the Mississippi.  Canton, Missouri was holding it's own,
thanks to a major effort in suring up the levies, and a seawall to the
north of town.  The north side of the town seawall was under water.
Canton started sandbagging early, and was prepared when the water hit.
Based upon the crest predictions, the area was under maximum strain.  It
appears they will come through it OK.

Flying north, I saw the saddest sight of the trip.  Alexandria,
Missouri, a town I used to deliver to with my father, was completely
under water.  Only the tops of roofs could be seen.  The town was succes
sfully evacuated, however I could not forget the people who I had met
there, and wondering what they were doing.  The water extended a good
10-15 miles in-land on the Missouri side, nearly reaching Wayland,
Misouri.  This, combined with the water on the Illinois side of the
river, made the Mississippi 20 miles wide at this point.  All we could
see from east to west was muddy, brown Mississippi water.

We flew north to Keokuk.  Keokuk is lucky to be on a bluff, and appeared
to only suffer minor damage.  Lock and Dam #19 was mostly under water,
but it appeared the Union Electric power generating station was still
above water, and possibly functioning.  Turning south to head back to
Kirksville, we again flew over Alexandria.  It is difficult to imagine
the challenges of the people of Alexandria and Meyer will face when the
flood waters receed.  It is obvious that it will be weeks before they wi
ll be able to return to their homes, and years bfore their lives will
return to normal.  It will take weeks for the waters to recced, and
months for the fields to dry-up after having been under as much as 12
feet of water.  We could see boats moving around, with people checking
their property.

We were all pretty sobered by the time we landed in Kirksville.  Having
grown up on the Mississippi, we always saw it as a place to water ski,
or boat.  Never did I think that old man river was capable of this.  I
managed to shoot a role of film of places I recognized.  It was a sight
like I have never seen before.  I should probably get going, for it
looks like it is about ready to rain---again.

I hope this hasn't been too self-indulgent on my part.  It was an
unbelievable experience to see this.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 21:22:02 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mississippi Flood and WWII

Tim,

     I just returned from Rock Island -- my home town.  I slung a few
sandbags on the levee in 1965, just after I resigned/returned home from
West Point.  Soon after, Rock Island built a high/permanent dike.
Davenport is currently under water (at least its first couple of blocks from
the river are) because it didn't (build such a dike).

     It is very much like the regional emergency I (and my new, young wife)
saw in upper Idaho in Fall 1973 on our way to Alaska.  Fire conditions were
acute and a(nother) electrical storm was starting fires up and down the sides
of the mountains.  Threading our way through convoys of grim/grimy firefighters
was like driving through the middle of the Ardennes in late 1944.

Lou Coatney
Western Illinois University
Macomb, Illinois

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Jul 1993 21:26:06 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mississippi Flood and WWII

Incidentally, what was the name of that great book about the guy who drove
  the two little Jewish kids out of harm's way in the Ardennes.  It contained
  a great segment about Hemmingway.

?

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End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Jul 1993 to 11 Jul 1993
*************************************************