Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 Jul 1993 to 29 Jul 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 00:00:40 -0400

There are 14 messages totalling 583 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Need help finding regiment history (2)
  2. USAAF 29 JUL 43
  3. Nat'l HIstorical Soc. (2)
  4. INF: MARSHALL
  5. REF: BRITISH BOOK ON WWII DOCUMENTS
  6. VET:Ethnic/Minority
  7. Green Books (3)
  8. "Greenbacks" -- (BIBLIO?)
  9. Patton anecdote
 10. Informations Request

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Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 09:16:45 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Need help finding regiment history

>>According to his discharge papers he was in the 253rd Infantry
>>Regiment serving in Europe. As a kid, either my imagination
>>ran wild or I was told he was in the 101st Airborne in the
>>Normandy Invasion and also fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
>>From what I have read in books, I see no mention of the 253rd
>>Infantry Regiment along with the 101st Airborne.

Has anyone answered this yet?  The 82nd and 101st Airborne regiments,
certainly on D-Day, were consecutive numbers starting with 501, ie: there
was 501, 502, 503, etc up to about 507.  I'm certain that the 253rd INF regt
would have nothing to do with them.

BTW, anyone know why the regiments were consecutive numbers but the two
Airborne divs were 82 and 101 ?  and later on, the 17th Airborne.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:[email-masked]
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Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 07:32:17 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Need help finding regiment history

Larry and John,

I offer the following info about the 253rd Inf Regt.

Bear

253rd Inf Regt:

253rd Inf, 254th Inf, 255th Inf  assigned to 63rd Inf Div in WW2.

Entered combat in late 1944 on southern part of French front.
Assigned to 7th US Army.  Fought in and around the Colmar Pocket
Jan-Feb 45.  In Feb, crossed the Saar north of Sarreguemines and
a few weeks later breached the Siegfried Line (US term; German term
is the Westwall) just south of Saarbrucken.  Captured Heidelberg
in March.  In April, destroyed the remains of the 17th SS
Panzer-grenadier Division near the Hardthauser Woods and crossed
the NEckar River.  Pursued the retreating German forces through
Wurttemburg and Bavaria.  Ended the war near Landberg at the edge
of the Bavarian Alps.

The 253rd Inf Regt never fought with or was assigned to the
101st Airborne Division.

Info taken from:

1)  Infantry Regiments of the US Army by James Sawicki,
Wyern Publications, Dumfies, Virginia, 1981.

2)  Fighting Divisions by CWO E. J. Kahn and Tech Sgt
H. McElmore, Infantry Journal Press, Washington DC, 1946
(now out of print).

>Can anyone help John out here?  Post to the list, send mail to me
>or post to soc.veterans. (Email to soc.veterans via
>[email-masked]).
>
>TIA,
>Larry J
>
>>I apologize if this is the wrong newsgroup but I need help
>>finding information on my father's WW2 military history.
>>
>>According to his discharge papers he was in the 253rd Infantry
>>Regiment serving in Europe. As a kid, either my imagination
>>ran wild or I was told he was in the 101st Airborne in the
>>Normandy Invasion and also fought in the Battle of the Bulge.
>>From what I have read in books, I see no mention of the 253rd
>>Infantry Regiment along with the 101st Airborne.
>>
>>Is it common for GIs and/or Regiments to get moved araoun? Is the
>>regiment listed on his discharge papers his assignment at the time
>>of discharge only or would it have been throughout his service?
>>His papers list the following Campaigns: Central Europe Rhineland,
>>G.O. 33, and W.D. 45 - do these mean anything to anybody?
>>His basic training was in Fort Dix, New Jersey.
>>
>>I would greatly appreciate any help on researching the history of
>>the 253rd Inf. Reg. or if anybody can tell me how to go about
>>tracking down his military records I would be forever grateful.
>>Thanks in advance for any help anybody can provide.
>>--
>>John R. Bonsma
>>Bell Communications Research
>>[email-masked]
>
>
>--
>#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner [email-masked]
>#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
>#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
>#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
>

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 07:51:03 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 29 JUL 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 29 JULY 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-40, Boeing Flying Fortress
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 1 B-17 scouts Kiska Island and bombs the
Main Camp area.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force)
    In Burma, 2 flights of B-25's blast the previously bombed Mu River
bridge between Ywataung and Monywa. The bridge is hit heavily with 1 span
left submerged in the river.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force)
    18 B-24's, with fighter escort, bomb shipping and dockyard installa-
tions at Hong Kong. Kowloon and Taikoo Docks and the old Royal Navy yards
are hit. 4 P-40's attack a Japanese force of 23 bombers and 30 fighters
attacking Hengyang, China; 1 Japanese fighter is downed.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
  VIII Bomber Command Mission Number 79: 2 locations in Germany are the
targets for this mission:
    1. 167 B-17's and a YB-40 are dispatched to the shipyards at Kiel;
91 hit the shipyard at 0901 hours and 48 hit targets of opportunity; they
claim 48-6-33 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17's are lost, 2 are damaged beyond
repair and 62 are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 61 MIA.
    2. 81 B-17's are dispatched to the Heinkel Works at Warnemunde; 54 hit
the target at 0922-0924 hours; they claim 0-2-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4
B-17's are lost and 7 damaged; casualties are 40 MIA.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 8 and 9: 2 airfields are the target:
    1. 18 B-26B's are dispatched against Schipol Airfield at Amsterdam,
The Netherlands; the mission is aborted due to a navigational error.
    2. 21 B-26B's are dispatched against Ft. Rouge Airfield, France; 19
hit the target at 1828 hours; 8 B-26's are damaged.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 200+ P-40's, to date the largest number of fighters
operating in 1 day during the Sicilian campaign, attack Messina Riposto,
shipping at Catania, Santa Teresa di Riva, Taormina, Milazzo, and in the
Straits of Messina.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's hit Aquino Air-
field, Sicily. B-17's bomb Viterbo Airfield, Italy. In Sicily, Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters and light bombers hit Regalbuto,
Milazzo, shipping off Messina, and gun positions and motor transport in NE
Sicily.
    On the ground in Sicily, the US Seventh Army almost completes the mopup
of W Sicily, approaches Santo Stefano Quisquina, advances on Mistretta, and
takes 3 islands off Trapani. The British Eighth Army opens an assault during
the night of 29/30 Jul along an axis of Catenanuova-Adrano.
    The detachment of the 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 2d Air Defense
Wing, operating from Protville, Tunisia with Beaufighters returns to it's
base at Rerhaia, Algeria.
    The 415th Night Fighter Squadron, 1st Air Defense Wing, transfers from
Monastir, Tunisia to La Sebala, Tunisia with Beaufighters. The detachment
at Protville, Tunisia also transfers.
    The 441st, 442d and 444th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 320th
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfer from Massicault, Tunisia to El
Bathan, Tunisia with B-26's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-17's, B-24's, and B-25's bomb Kela Point and village,
and Salamaua town and peninsula area. On New Britain Island in the Bis-
marck Archipelago, B-25's, B-26's, and a B-24 attack Army HQ, barges, and
villages in the Natamo vicinity, shipping off Cape Gloucester, Borgen Bay,
along the coast from Ring Ring Plantation to Roebuck Point and barges off
Cape Dampier, New Guinea. P-40's strafe targets of opportunity.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  [email-masked]                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 08:17:53 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nat'l HIstorical Soc.

I got mail last night from "The National HIstorical Society" out of
Hicksville, NY.  They're hawking a multi-volume set, titled "The UNited
States Army in World War II"

The set consists of a number (I can't tell how many) of volumes, plus three
picture books (400 pages each) plus two softcover atlases with 100 maps.
The first volume is over 600 pages,  for which they want only $20. (and
they take ten bucks off that as an introductory grabber.)  They also throw
in some other junk.

This looks too good to be true.  Twenty bucks for a book is nothing, and
they look to be of good quality.  I'm skeptical, it looks so good. I can
think of a number of ways this could turn sour (there are several thousand
volumes, perhaps, or the later books are $50 each...).  Does anyone know
anything about these folks?  (I'll give them a call, of course, but I
figured I'd check here, too.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
Quality Engineer            Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 10:04:58 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nat'l HIstorical Soc.

Bill Thacker writes:
>I got mail last night from "The National HIstorical Society" out of
>Hicksville, NY.  They're hawking a multi-volume set, titled "The UNited
>States Army in World War II"
...
>The first volume is over 600 pages,  for which they want only $20.
...
>This looks too good to be true.  Twenty bucks for a book is nothing, and
>they look to be of good quality.  I'm skeptical, it looks so good.

These are clones of the famous "green series" published (and still available
from) the US GPO. I too received this offer. Looks fairly good, but I
aready have a number of these books, and I'd rather not have to hassle
with a "book of the month" type of buying arrangement. And as most of
the volumes are still available from the GPO ($17-$40, most maybe $25) its
not all that great a deal.

*I think* all books published by the US GPO are in the public domain, so
anyone can (and as we see, they do) reprint them and sell them.

Most of the books look fairly good...they are mostly by US Army historians
and used primary sources (after action reports, orders, etc. Lots of foot
notes, etc).

Unfortunately the series was never completed (well, not with complete
coverage). The operations of 6th Army Group in S and E France are barely
covered...the operations in Alsace are just plain not covered at all.

The person who asked about the 253rd will thus have trouble, as...you guessed
it...the 253rd was part of 63 ID, a part of US 7th Army, a part of 6th Army
Group...in Alsace! [Remember the French in WW2 discussion? Their 1st Army
was the other unit with 6th Army Group.]

Oh, and the 63 ID and 101 ABD were both involved in the same fight in Alsace
in late Jan 1945. I forget if they were adjacent in the line (along the Moder
river) or not.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 16:54:46 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: MARSHALL

  Oslo, July 29.  Larry, You probably have in mind one of the volumes of
Pogue's biography of Marshall, which are fine books.  I have the
one on the post war period and can get the one on the pre-war at
a library here, so don't go to further trouble.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 16:55:05 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: BRITISH BOOK ON WWII DOCUMENTS

  Oslo, July 29.  The British have recently published THE SECOND
WORLD WAR: a guide to documents in the Public Record Office, by
John D. Canwell.  It seems to cover all the ministries, including
the Foreign Office, except the defense ministry.
  There is however at the back a list of official histories of
the war.  The one on Europe is VICTORY ON THE WESTERN FRONT,
edited by Major L.F. Ellis.
*******************************************************************
* John C. Ausland               Tel: +47 22 14 17 68              *
* Land Productions              Fax: +47 22 16 30 92              *
* Sondreveien 4, Entry 2        CIS: 73240,2704                   *
* 0378 Oslo, Norway             Internet: [email-masked] *
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 09:50:01 -0500
From:    Ellen Pedraza <[email-masked]>
Subject: VET:Ethnic/Minority

Hi!  I represent a group of students training to be elementary school
teachers.

For their class assignment (due in early September) they would like to
contact WWII veterans (or spouses or friends) from the following ethnic
groups:

African-American
Hispanic-American (Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban)
German-American
Italian-American
Native-American
Asian-American (Chinese, Japanese, Pacific Islander, Cambodian)

The group needs to talk (email) to individuals from the above groups about
their experiences at home or during military service during WWII.

If any of the WWII-L subscribers (or friends or spouses) meet the above
description and would like to "talk" to the class, please contact me
directly at the email address below.

The class assignment is to incorporate the ethnic experience into a
curriculum for Grades 2-5 about WWII.  They will be using traditional
sources such as films, videos, textbooks, but also want to include
personal interviews.

Also, if any subscribers are aware of ethnic/minority WWII veterans
organizations, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Ellen J. Pedraza        University of Wisconsin-Parkside
[email-masked]      (414)595-2077

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:53:00 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Green Books

I have read alot in this group about the "Green Books". What are they, do they
have a ISBN number, would they be available in my public library, and if they
were, what would they be called?

Thanks,
Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 14:35:14 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Green Books

>I have read alot in this group about the "Green Books". What are they,

That is the slang name of "The US Army in World War II" official history,
a multi-volume set [hmmm, maybe 30 volumes?] covering the European,
North African, Italian, Pacific, and Alaska/US theaters and operations
of *the US Army*. Not the US Marines, USAAF, Navy, etc, *just the US
Army*. Besides the military history of the campaigns, other volumes deal
with the special topics and services (quartermaster, chemical warfare,
etc).

The reason they are called the "green series" is that the binding and
covers are green...hey, these are ARMY books after all  :^)
Generally they take up couple meters of shelf space, so a walk thru
the military history section of a library will make them easy to find
if the library has them.

>do they have a ISBN number,

I'd assume so...I don't have a volume handy.
I forget the Dewey...in the "D"s with WW2 history.

> would they be available in my public library,

Public library? Unlikely, unless it is a good big one. They are certainly
not "rare". University librarys are likely to have them too.

>and if they were, what would they be called?

Each volume has its own title...they are part of a series, but each is
a stand-alone work. _Rearming the French_, _Chronology_, _Victory in
Papua_, etc, etc.

As I said, most of the "green series" volumes are still available
from the US GPO. The GPO also offers a fair selection of other good
military history books, and prices are very reasonable (its non-profit;
prices are merely to covering costs). They are available to anyone by
mail order or local GPO bookstore, not just US citizens.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Jul 29 1993 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 14:34:12 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Greenbacks" -- (BIBLIO?)

The Army "Greenbacks" can also be found in U.S. Documents depository
  collections in many major libraries -- call ahead.

If a library shelf number begins with a letter (like "D") it is part of the
  Library of Congress numbering system.  The Dewey numbers for WWII are in
  the 940s.

The U.S. Army Center for Military History has many other excellent publica-
  tions, including its series on the Russian Front.  Ironically the final/3rd
  volume (by Ziemke) was published first -- maybe because the Soviets were
  more forthcoming about their victories at the time -- and then the second.

We are still waiting on Dr. Charles von Luttischau's "Meisterwerke" -- the
  draft now stands at well over 1,000 pages, and the CMH is balking at
  publishing it.  Dr. vL did the superb maps in the Breakout & Pursuit and
  Ardennes volumes.

I urge WWII-L members to contact anyone they know in DC of influence (and)
  to (otherwise) exhort Brig. Gen. Nelson, the CinC, to get this moving.
  USACMH, 1099 14th St NW, Wash., DC, 20005-3402, 202/504-5400.

Lou Coatney
  Western Illinois University Library (although the opinions expressed above
  are my own, not the Library's)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 14:46:17 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Patton anecdote

This anecdote about Gen. Patton was extracted from Paul Tibbet's
autobiography, which has been variously titled "The Tibbets Story",
and "Flight of the Enola Gay".  As a 2nd Lt., Tibbets was assigned
to Fort Benning, GA in February 1938.  One of his duties was to
fly the then Lt. Col. Patton over the countryside so that he could
observe his tanks in action.

"One incident that I remember quite well came in 1940, when Patton's
outfit was demonstrating the speed, firepower, and manueverability
of some newly acquired tanks.  Bleachers and loudspeakers were set up
in the demonstration area, and a large number of officers from other
units, in addition to the tank corps students, turned out for the show.

The tanks clattered by in formation, then turned and smashed down a
number of fair-sized trees.  The instructors kept the spectators
informed of what was happening.  Patton himself took the microphone
at one point.  ...

Inspired perhaps by the size of his audience, he suddenly was seized
with the impulse to do something spectacular.  On a nearby hillside
was an abandoned farmhouse in ramshackle condition.  A tank had just
come to a stop in front of the bleachers and its driver, a sergeant,
was pointing out features that made this equipment superior to the
old tanks.

Patton broke into the sergeant's lecture and said, "Now I'll show you
what this tank can do.  See that house over there?  I'm going to
knock it down."

The sergeant started to protest.  "But sir," he said, "I wouldn't do-"

The general waved him aside and said, "Never mind, sergeant, I'm going
to show these people something."

Before the sergeant could remonstrate further, Patton climbed through
the hatch, let himself down into the driver's seat, and went roaring
across the field and up the hill in a cloud of dust.

The old frame house shuddered as Patton's tank smashed into it at full
speed.  Splinters flew in every direction as one side of the structure
collapsed.  But the big tank failed to come out the other side as it
was supposed to.  The spectators watched in puzzeled expectancy, and
a couple of tank corpsmen, including the sergeant, rushed to the house.

A few moments later they emerged, accompanied by Patton.  "Why didn't
someone tell me there was a basement under that house?" asked the
general, who was in good spirits despite his misadventure.  Suddenly
he realized that the sergeant had been trying to tell him just that.
Striding to the microphone, he showed no sign of embarrassment.

"There's a lesson in this," he told his audience of military
personnel.  "Always listen to your sergeant." "

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 16:07:58 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Green Books

>
> >I have read alot in this group about the "Green Books". What are they,
>
> That is the slang name of "The US Army in World War II" official history,
> a multi-volume set [hmmm, maybe 30 volumes?] covering the European,

  70+ at last count.

> >do they have a ISBN number,

> I'd assume so...I don't have a volume handy.
> I forget the Dewey...in the "D"s with WW2 history.

  D100's in the GovDoc section of a repository library.  Dewey is 940.92,
if memory serves.

> As I said, most of the "green series" volumes are still available
> from the US GPO. The GPO also offers a fair selection of other good
> military history books, and prices are very reasonable (its non-profit;
> prices are merely to covering costs). They are available to anyone by
> mail order or local GPO bookstore, not just US citizens.

  Ordering information and store locations are available from "byrd".
(byrd.mu.wvnet.edu) as gpo_order.txt and gpo_store.txt.

> Scott.
> Scott Hannon, Thu Jul 29 1993 ([email-masked])

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Jul 1993 15:07:12 BRA
From:    "Silvio E. G. Melo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Informations Request

      Steve

      Thank's for your information, but in Brasil the access of some books is
very dificult and more times, impossible.
      I'll look for this book, thank's.

                               Silvio

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End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Jul 1993 to 29 Jul 1993
*************************************************