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There are 11 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Battalions
  2. USAAF 2 AUG 43
  3. Green Books (2)
  4. USAAF 28 JUL 43
  5. HELP!!!!!
  6. MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields (2)
  7. MISC: Flying aircraft gifs
  8. suggested reading on Ploesti raid (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 07:00:05 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Battalions

Kevin,

Follow up to my previous.  Have been unable to locate anything on 926th Sig Bn.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 07:22:12 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 2 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 2 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 8 B-24's, 9 B-25's, and 8 P-38's hit Kiska
Island in 2 waves, bombing and strafing North Head, and coast guns on
Little Kiska Island, scoring several hits. 1 or 2 enemy aircraft over Attu
Island cannot be intercepted due to weather.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    A B-24 of the 4th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine
Group, sinks U-706 in the E Atlantic (46-15N 10-25W).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Air Support Command Missions 12A and 12B: Two airfields in France
are targetted.
      1. 34 B-26's are dispatched to Merville Airfield; 31 hit the target
at 0810 hours; 1 aircraft is damaged beyond repair and 15 are damaged.
      2. 21 B-26's are dispatched to the St. Omer/Ft. Rouge Airfield; 18
hit the target at 0900 hours; 13 aircraft are damaged.
    Total casualties for both missions are 6 WIA.
    VIII Air Support Command Missions 13A and 13B: An attack Woensdrecht
Airfield, The Netherlands is cancelled; Mission 13B is a diversion.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, P-40's attack shipping in the Straits of Messina and off
Milazzo.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters, and
light and medium bombers hit trucks, a dump and road junction in NE Sicily,
docks and shipping at Milazzo, Messina and in the Reggio di Calabria, Italy
area, and targets of opportunity (mainly motor transport) from Barcellona S
to Adrano.
    On the ground in Sicily, US ground forces push slowly W while British
troops gain control of Regalbuto and fight indecisively in the streets of
Centuripe.
    HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) with B-25's transfer from Hergla, Tunisia to
Ponte Olivio, Sicily.
    HQ 31st Fighter Group transfers from Agrigento to Termini, Sicily.
    HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 488th and 489th Bombard-
ment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Hergla, Tunisia to Comiso, Sicily
with B-25's.
    The 308th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group transfers from Agrigento
to Termini, Sicily with Spitfires.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On New Georgia Island in the Solomon Islands, B-25's, B-17's, P-40's, and
US Navy fighters pound the shores of Bairoko harbor; and B-24's, B-25's,
P-40's and Navy F4U's hit a supply area on the W side of Webster Cove.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-17's bomb supply dumps on the shores of Hansa Bay and
targets of opportunity along the Francisco River; A-20's hit Buiambun and
B-25's pound barges from Lae to Bogadjim, from Lae to Kepler Point, and
from the Bubui River to Lepsius Point; and B-24's bomb Lae harbor, Sala-
maua, and the W shore of Voco Point.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 08:26:09 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Re: Green Books

        Bob Smart's posting on the availability of the Green Books points out a
        common symptom of the GPO.  They're redoing the Dictionary of American
        Fighting Ships at the Naval History Institute and have released vol. 1
        of the revised edition.  The GPO took the old vol. 1 off the shelf,
        despite the fact that the two books don't "overlap".  Thus there will
        be gaps in the coverage until the second volume comes out and this will
        just move the "gap" farther down the alphabet.

        Larry J

Larry,
Are they adding any additional details about each ship in Vol 1?
I have the set at home and Vol 1 was "barebones" about each ship;
it didn't get good until Vol 4 or 5.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 08:26:14 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Re: USAAF 28 JUL 43

        >   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
        >     VIII Bomber Command Mission Number 78: The aviation industry in
        > Germany is targetted but bad weather hampers the raids. The targets are:
        >       1. 182 B-17's are dispatched against the Fieseler Works at Kassel,
        > Germany; 58 hit the target at 1027-1054 hours; they claim 27-15-22
        > Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17's are lost, 4 are damaged beyond repair and 54
        > damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 71 MIA.

        What happens to the aircraft that are dispatched but aren't listed as
        hitting the target? For example, in this raid only a third of the
        dispatched bombers hit the target; what happened to the rest?

There are always a certain percentage of aircraft that abort the
mission due to mechanical trouble.  The second problem was weather.
These aircraft did not have the electronic whizzbangs that would be
introduced in the Fall of 1943.  If the target was in an occupied
country, e.g., The Netherlands, there were rules prohibiting the
indiscriminate dropping of bombs.  I am not sure what the rules
were for Germany but if the target was overcast, the normal
procedure was to hit the secondary target and/or targets of
opportunity.  If they were socked in, you dropped your bombs in the
water and headed back home.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 07:35:10 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Green Books

>
>        Bob Smart's posting on the availability of the Green Books points out a
>        common symptom of the GPO.  They're redoing the Dictionary of American
>        Fighting Ships at the Naval History Institute and have released vol. 1
>        of the revised edition.  The GPO took the old vol. 1 off the shelf,
>        despite the fact that the two books don't "overlap".  Thus there will
>        be gaps in the coverage until the second volume comes out and this will
>        just move the "gap" farther down the alphabet.
>
>         Larry J
>
> Larry,
> Are they adding any additional details about each ship in Vol 1?
> I have the set at home and Vol 1 was "barebones" about each ship;
> it didn't get good until Vol 4 or 5.

  Vol. 1 cover letter "A" ships only. It's almost the sames size as the
earlier Vol. 1 so I'd say yes to your question.

  The books to years to write and grew more detailed as the series evolved.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
> |  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
> |  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
> |  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 09:13:39 EDT
From:    Elizabeth <KARI@GWUVM.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!!

Regarding your remark that "the guys" on this list are some of the best:
women subscribe to it, too.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 14:35:51 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU>
Subject: MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields

Over the weekend I saw a commercial for the US postal service
promoting stamp collecting.  One of the stamps I noticed in the
ad was one of a picture of B-24's over the Ploesti oil fields

This struck me because of the earlier posting about the typo re
B-17's in the raids and not B-24's.  Does anyone have any info
on what this particular collection this is and what other stamps
are included in it?  Sounds interesting...

TIA,
John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 13:28:43 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields

On Monday 2 Aug, John Peterson asked:

> Over the weekend I saw a commercial for the US postal service
> promoting stamp collecting.  One of the stamps I noticed in the
> ad was one of a picture of B-24's over the Ploesti oil fields
>
> This struck me because of the earlier posting about the typo re
> B-17's in the raids and not B-24's.  Does anyone have any info
> on what this particular collection this is and what other stamps
> are included in it?  Sounds interesting...

Since 1991, the U. S. Postal Service has produced a series of eight
stamps each year to commemorate (sp?) U. S. envolvment in WW II.  You
can buy all eight on a sheet that includes a map of the world showing
the progress of the Allied forces.  I don't have my stamps with me
(I'm not really a stamp collector, but this is a well done series)
but if memory serves stamps from last year included:  Doolittle's
Raid, Midway & Coral Sea, Operation Torch, and a "Homefront" stamp.








Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 14:42:51 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: MISC: Flying aircraft gifs

Stupid Question Time (tm), since I probably haven't been paying any
attention when it was discussed.

Has anyone taken on the task of obtaining photographs of WWII aircraft
restored to flying condition and scanning them into happy gifs?  (I'd
actually like to see a library of photos of currently flying aircraft,
whether they are on the airshow circuit or not -- makes for an excellent
resource as well when you are looking for people today who may know the
details you need to know and for identification when you see them at a
show or by chance.)

[P.S. I've got a few scans of three of our aircraft available by anonymous
ftp in the directory "/wwii/gifs" on "itasca.stat.umn.edu" (128.101.51.9).
These are NOT great quality scans.  I had them created because several
people needed or wanted something that would help them ID the aircraft
(and one picture to try and encourage some people to attend our hangar
dances... :-).  Still looking for someone who can do really good scans
from really bad prints, however...]

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 16:16:21 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: suggested reading on Ploesti raid

Brief histories of the three 8th AF B-24 groups taking part in
the 1 August raid on Ploesti:


The 44th BG was the first B-24 group in the USAAF.  While based in
Louisiana from Feb-Jun 1942, the group was credited with the
destruction of a U-boat in the Gulf of Mexico.  Assigned to the 8th
AF in September, they flew their first mission from England on
7 November 1942.  Loaned to the 9th AF, they arrived in Libya at
the end of June 1943, and flew 18 missions from Africa, including
the 1 August raid on Ploesti.  They returned to England by October,
and finished the war credited with 8009 sorties in 343 missions.

The 93rd BG also flew anti-submarine patrol, flying from Florida
May-July 1942, claiming three U-boat kills.  The first B-24 group
assigned to the 8th AF, they eventually flew more missions than
any other 8th AF BG.  They were loaned out early, and flew from
various bases in N. Africa from December 1942.  After the Ploesti
raid on 1 August, they returned to England by squadrons, with the
last squadron not returning till October.  The group took part in
49 missions while in N. Africa, finishing with 396 missions.

Assigned to the 8th AF in June 1943, the 389th BG flew their first
combat missions from Africa.  They flew 14 missions from N. Africa,
then began moving to England by squadrons, flying their first
mission from England on 7 September.  The group flew 321 missions,
and at one point provided all of the Pathfinder aircraft for the
entire 2nd BD.

Four of the five Medals Of Honor awarded for the 1 August Ploesti
raid were awarded to members of these three groups.

For anyone interested in further reading, I would like to
recommend Phillip Ardery's book, "Bomber Pilot".  Mr. Ardery was
assigned to the the 389th BG and flew on the 1 August mission.

Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Aug 1993 17:27:33 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: suggested reading on Ploesti raid

On Mon, 2 August, Dennis Spark wrote:
> Brief histories of the three 8th AF B-24 groups taking part in
> the 1 August raid on Ploesti:
>
>
> The 44th BG was the first B-24 group in the USAAF.  While based in
> Louisiana from Feb-Jun 1942, the group was credited with the
> destruction of a U-boat in the Gulf of Mexico.  Assigned to the 8th
> AF in September, they flew their first mission from England on
> 7 November 1942.  Loaned to the 9th AF, they arrived in Libya at
> the end of June 1943, and flew 18 missions from Africa, including
> the 1 August raid on Ploesti.  They returned to England by October,
> and finished the war credited with 8009 sorties in 343 missions.

The 44th is now a Strategic Missile Group (I'm not sure if that's the
correct title) headquartered at Ellsworth AFB, near Rapid City, SD.
The musuem near the base has a nice section devoted to the history of
the 44th, with a lot of emphasis on the Ploesti raid.


Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Aug 1993 to 2 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 6 messages totalling 292 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 3 AUG 43
  2. WANT: UK "Crown Copyright"?
  3. INF: Terminology (FWD) (2)
  4. INF: Air Force Terminology
  5. MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 07:08:05 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 3 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 3 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 6 attack missions, 2 of which abort, are flown
to Kiska Island by B-24's, B-25's, P-38's, and P-40's; numerous targets hit
and strafed include installations at North Head and South Head.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    Major General William E. Kepner becomes Commanding General, VIII
Fighter Command.
    HQ 353d Fighter Group and it's 350th Fighter Squadron transfer from
Goxhill to Metfield, England with P-47's; the squadron will fly it's first
mission on 9 Aug. These units will remain at this station until Apr 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, B-25's bomb Adrano and its highway approaches; and 300+
P-40's, the largest Ninth Air Force total to date, attack harbors and
shipping at Milazzo and Messina, and give direct support to British ground
forces in the Catania-Bronte area.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) light bombers
hit tactical targets; and fighters, light and medium bombers hit shipping
in the Straits of Messina and at Milazzo and attack Adrano and Biancavilla
and gun emplacements and bridges in the area.
    On the ground in Sicily, US forces continue E along the N coast toward
the Furiano River. At Troina, further inland, the enemy continues firm
resistance.
    HQ 82d Fighter Group transfers from Souk-el-Arba, Algeria to Grombalia,
Tunisia.
    The 414th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers with B-17's from Chateaudun-du-Rhumel, Algeria to Pont-du-Fahs,
Tunisia.
    The 486th and 487th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 340th Bombardment
Group (Medium), transfer with B-25's from Hergla, Tunisia to Comiso,
Sicily.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-25's, B-17's, and B-24's bomb barges, small craft,
villages, grounded planes, trails, and military camps at numerous points,
including areas in or around Bogadjim, Salamaua, Manokwari, and Larat and
along the Bubui, Masaweng, Mindjim, and Kofebi Rivers and Bogadjim Road. On
New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, the W coast of Borgen Bay
and an island in Marien Harbor are also hit.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:30:56 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: WANT: UK "Crown Copyright"?

Hi, I need to have a sidebar with someone conversant with the "Crown
Copyright" and rules for reproduction of documents under same.

Please e-mail to

jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu

if you have information on same.

TIA,
Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 11:53:38 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Terminology (FWD)

Being a Navy man, I had to response to the below with a resounding "duh?"
Can anyone clarify this for us?

> Mr. Jewell:
> I hope this isn't an inconvenience, but I wonder if you could help me
> distinguish between the Air Force, Air Corps, and the Army Air Corps.
> Also, is the Air Corps Reserve the proper designation for the immediate
> postwar period.  Any enlightenment you can provide will be much
> appreciated.
>
> By distinguish, I mean primarily the chronological differences in
> the various names.
>
TIA,
Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 14:26:15 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Re: INF: Terminology (FWD)

Ah, the Air Force to the rescue again!  (Just joking so no flames
please!)

  Being a Navy man, I had to response to the below with a resounding "duh?"
        Can anyone clarify this for us?

        > Mr. Jewell:
        > I hope this isn't an inconvenience, but I wonder if you could help me
        > distinguish between the Air Force, Air Corps, and the Army Air Corps.
        > Also, is the Air Corps Reserve the proper designation for the immediate
        > postwar period.  Any enlightenment you can provide will be much
        > appreciated.
        >
        > By distinguish, I mean primarily the chronological differences in
        > the various names.
        >
        TIA,
        Larry J

Larry, I don't know who is requesting this information but if it is
Sara Howell at Vanderbilt, I forwarded this and other information
to her this AM.

The ORGANIZATION which controlled Army aviation units both
operationally and administratively has had many names:

1. On 1 August 1907, the Aeronautical Division is established in
the Office of the Chief Signal Office (Army Signal Corps) "to have
charge of all matters pertaining to military ballooning, air
machines and all kindred subjects" even though the Army did not buy
their first airplane until 1909.

2. The above organization is superseded by the Aviation Section
(Signal Corps) created by Congress on 18 July 1914.

3. On 20 May 1918, Army aeronautics is severed from the Signal
Corps and two air departments were created in the War Department, the
Bureau of Military Aeronautics and the Bureau of Aircraft Production.
On 28 August 1918, a Director of Air Service was appointed to
administer these two air departments; the organization becomes known
as the Army Air Service.

4. On 2 July 1926, the Congress passed the Air Corps Act and the Army
Air Service is redesignated the Army Air Corps (AAC); the AAC had
control of all Air Corps units in the continental US.  The
commander of the AAC is known as the Chief of the Air Corps.

5. On 1 March 1935, the General Headquarters Air Force (GHQ Air
Force) is formed to control all COMBAT units (pursuit, bombardment
and attack) in the continental US; GHQ AF and all other Air Corps
units in the continental US remain under the control of the Chief
of the Air Corps.

6. On 19 November 1940, the GHQ Air Force is removed for the
jurisdiction of the Chief of the Air Corps and becomes an element
of the Army field forces and is assigned to the commanding general
of the field forces.

7. On 20 June 1941, the Army Air Forces (AAF) is created to
coordinate the activities of the Air Force Combat Command (formerly
GHQ Air Force) and the office of the Chief of the Air Corps.  Major
General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold is named Chief, Army Air Forces;
Major General George H. Brett is named Chief of the Air Corps; and
Lieutenant General D.C. Emmons is named Commanding General Air
Force Combat Command.

8. On 9 March 1942, the War Department is reorganized.  The Army
Air Corps and Air Force Combat Command are merged into the Army Air
Forces with Lieutenant General "Hap" Arnold named as Commanding
General Army Air Forces.  The Infantry, Cavalry, Field Artillery and
other surface combat elements are merged into the Army Ground Forces.
The supply and service agencies, i.e., Quartermaster, Ordnance,
Chemical Warfare, etc., are merged into the Services of Supply,
subsequently renamed the Army Service Forces.  These three new
organizations report to the General Staff, a body composed of equal
numbers of air and ground officers.

9. Finally, on 26 September 1947, the US Air Force is established.

One confusing factor when talking about the AAF is who controlled
what.  All AAF units in the Zone of Interior (the Continental US)
were generally under the control of HQ AAF.  When an AAF unit went
overseas, it came under the command of the Theater Commander.  For
example, the Eighth Air Force operated from England but was
assigned to the European Theater of Operations, US Army commanded by
Eisenhower; the Fifth Air Force operated from Australia, New
Guinea, etc. and was assigned to the Southwest Pacific Theater of
Operations, US Army, i.e., MacArthur, etc.  There were exceptions
to this rule, e.g., the Air Transport Command performed a
world-wide transportation function but it remained under HQ AAF;
Antisubmarine Squadrons were under the AAF Antisubmarine Command
which reported to HQ AAF, etc.  Finally, the Twentieth Air Force, the
B-29 outfit in the Pacific, remained under control of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff with "Hap" Arnold as it's titular head in order to maintain
one unified force.  If the B-29 units had been dolled out to the
Theater Commanders, they would have used them for their own benefit
and might have ignored the strategic mission for which the aircraft
was designed.

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 14:31:09 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Air Force Terminology

    Most land-based U.S. a/c were in the United States Army Air
Corps in 1939; the USAAC became the United States Army Air Force
in 1941?2? and the United States Air Force in the postwar period.

     However, the force was already known as the USAAF during WWII.
Hence I doubt that the reserve was called the U.S. Air Corps Reserve
in the postwar period.

     Rob

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Aug 1993 17:26:42 EDT
From:    "J.J. Dowd" <JJDOWD@UGA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields

I just happen to have in front of me a sheet of the WWII commemoratives that
include the Ploesti refinery attack.  The sheet commemorates 1943 and is called
"Turning the Tide."  Besides a groiup of ten stamps, the sheet includes a world
map with major battles of 1943 indicated.  The ten stamps include, besides the
B-24 hit on the Ploesti refineries, the following:
      1.  the invasion of Italy in Sept.'43
      2.  "Bonds and stamps help war effort, 1943
      3.  "'Willie and Joe' keep spirits high, 1943"
      4.  "Gold Stars mark World War II losses, 1943"
      5.  "Marines assault Tarawa, Nov. '43"
      6.  "Allied forces battle German U-boats, 1943"
      7.  "Military medics treat the wounded, 1943"
      8.  "Sicily attacked by Allied forces, July 1943"
      9.  the Ploesti attack
      10. "V-mail delivers letters from home, 1943"

  On the sheet is a message indicating that this is the third in a series of
World War II 50th anniversary stamp sheets being issued by the U.S. Postal Serv
ice from 1991 through 1995.  I missed the first two issues.

                                                 Jim Dowd
                                                 Athens, GA

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Aug 1993 to 3 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 8 messages totalling 465 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 4 AUG 43 (2)
  2. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (July 13 edition) (3)
  3. Kiska withdrawal
  4. INF: Need shipping losses tables...
  5. INF: "Nacht und Nebel" Decree?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:21:33 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 4 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 4 AUGUST 1943

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, between 0855 and 1846 hours, 153 tons of bombs
are dropped on Kiska Island, a new one-day record; 6 armored weather, photo
and reconnaissance missions, flown by 3 B-24's, 2 P-40's, and 2 F-5A's bomb
through clouds, take photos and observe fires in Main Camp and on Little
Kiska Island; later 48 B-25's, 22 B-24's, 16 A-24's, 8 P-40's, and 40
P-38's fly 17 bombing and strafing attacks to Kiska Island; targets hit
include buildings near the radio station, and the gun battery area on North
Head. Little Kiska Island and Segula Island are also strafed.
    The 36th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 28th Composite Group, which has
been operating from Adak Island with B-24's since Jun 43, returns to it's
base on Amchitka Island.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Air Support Command Mission Number 14: 36 B-26's are dispatched to
shipyards at Le Trait, France; 33 hit the target at 1926 hours without loss
or casualties.
    The 416th Night Fighter Squadron, VIII Fighter Command, begins moving
from Acklington, England to Algiers, Algeria with Beaufighters.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, P-40's attack shipping at Messina and support ground forces
at the N end of Mount Etna.
    On the ground in Sicily, US troops are halted by fierce opposition at
the Furiano River and at Troina.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Italy, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb the
submarine base at Naples; B-26's and B-25's hit the railroad bridge at
Cantanzaro and railroad at Paola. In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air
Force (NATAF) medium and light bombers, and fighters attack communications
targets, gun positions, and storage areas in the Milazzo-Adrano-Biancavilla
and Bronte-Riposto-Fiumefreddo areas. A number of NATAF aircraft hit rail
sidings on the toe of Italy and attack shipping off Messina, Sicily.
    On the ground in Sicily, the British cross the Salso River with 2
divisions, while other forces prepare to drive on Catania and others
continue toward Misterbianco.
    HQ 99th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 347th and 348th Bombardment
Squadrons (Heavy) transfer with B-17's from Navarin, Algeria to Oudna,
Tunisia.
    The 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons, 82d Fighter Group, transfer
from Souk-el-Arba, Algeria to Grombalia, Tunisia with P-38's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On New Georgia Island in the Solomons Island, B-25's, and US Navy dive
bombers, bomb the Gurasai-Kindu Village area; some of the B-25's also
strafe areas emitting intense small arms fire, silencing it. P-38's and
P-40's claim 11 fighters downed in a series of running battles over the C
Solomons.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  B-25's bomb and strafe the Itni River area on New Britain Island and hit
several villages on Selaroe Island in the Tanimbar Islands. Single B-24's
bomb a dump area on the Francisco River, New Guinea and Cape Gloucester
Airfield on New Britain Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 09:48:50 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (July 13 edition)

Since we're now over 260 members in 24 countries, I thought I'd repost
the intro.  We can expect another influx of new members  when school reopens
in the next few weeks.  Meanwhile, keep up the good work!

Larry J

*****************************************************************************
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
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ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
       Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate
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WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
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MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
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ARC  (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
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      should be posted under this flag.))

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
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at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.


Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.


1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.


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If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)


Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB%USMCP6.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet"
or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>


Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234


#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 13:44:11 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (July 13 edition)

        Since we're now over 260 members in 24 countries, I thought I'd repost
        the intro.  We can expect another influx of new members  when school reopens
        in the next few weeks.  Meanwhile, keep up the good work!

        Larry J

Larry,

If you have a chance (no rush either), could we get a rundown of
members by country?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 12:12:14 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4 AUG 43

Just a quick question to the collective wisdom of the net:  When did
the Japanese evacuate Kiska (Yes, I suppose I could look it up, but I
guess I'm too lazy today)?  If it was several days before the
invasion, wouldn't the lack of AA activity be a hint that the island
was empty?  Or did the U. S. just assume its airstrikes were very
effective?

Thanks.

Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 13:33:10 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Kiska withdrawal

I remember up at the Alaska State Library, we were sent a postwar
  Japanese feature film -- "Retreat from Kiska."  The acting was great,
  the ship models used in the naval scenes were beautiful, but it WAS
  marred by the obviously plastic model U.S. airplanes shooting their
  obviously spring-launched "rockets" at the ships (which were then
  revealed to be at sea in a studio bathtub).

It was nonetheless a fascinating film from the Japanese point of view
  about an important chapter in Alaskan history.  The person responsible
  for film acquisition was unenthused about military or naval history, and
  it was passed on into oblivion (we found out when we later tried to
  locate it).

Has anyone seen this?  I think Toshiro Mifune -- no less -- was in the film.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 16:49:19 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (July 13 edition)

> Larry,
>
> If you have a chance (no rush either), could we get a rundown of
> members by country?
>
To get a copy of the membership list broken-down by countries send

review wwii-l countries

as the only item in the body of a letter to

listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

and you'll get the list back, usually, within 24 hours.

I'd rather not post this to the whole list since a lot of people
probably aren't interested.  If this system fails for anyone, send
me mail to the address below and I'll forward you a copy of the file.

Larry J


#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 18:20:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Need shipping losses tables...

I need a reference for shipping losses for each month of the war. Number
of ships and tonnage from all causes.  Any suggestions?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Aug 1993 20:26:44 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: "Nacht und Nebel" Decree?

Anyone have the text of the "Night and Fog" Decree issued to the German
secret services in December 1941?

Larry J

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Aug 1993 to 4 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There is one message totalling 110 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 5 AUG 43

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Aug 1993 06:57:15 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 5 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 5 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    The air echelon of the 23d Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Anti-
submarine Wing, transfers from Drew Field, Tampa, Florida to Edinburgh
Field, Trinidad with B-25's. The ground echelon remains at Drew Field until
15 Oct 43 then moves to Smoky Hill Army Airfield, Kansas where it is
disbanded on 6 Nov 43.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    The 351st Fighter Squadron, 353d Fighter Group, transfers from Goxhill
to Metfield, England with P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first mission
on Monday and remain at this station until Apr 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, B-25's bomb the town, roads, and road junctions of Franca-
villa and shipping in the Straits of Messina.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters and
light and medium bombers attack troops, roads, and gun positions at Adrano
and Troina and surrounding areas in support of Allied ground forces, hit
motor transport behind enemy lines in Sicily and on the toe of Italy, and
sink or damage over 20 small vessels and barges at Milazzo and in the
Straits of Messina; and Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF)
B-17's, operating in 2 forces, hit the docks and railroad yards at Messina.
B-25's bomb a switching station at Guspini, Sardinia, and P-40's, after
escorting the B-25's, attack and probably sink a U-boat off SW Sardinia.
    On the ground in Sicily, US forces open an assault on the San Fratello
ridge, and further inland gain positions overlooking Troina. The enemy
withdraws from the town during the night. The British 13 Corps overruns
Paterno, Misterbianco, and Catania; the British 30 Corps continues toward
Adrano.
    HQ 310th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 379th, 380th, 381st and
428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer with B-25's from Dar el
Koudia to Menzel Temime, Tunisia.
    The 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers with P-39's
from Sfax to Sidi Ahmed, Tunisia.
    The 309th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, transfers with Spit-
fires from Agrigento to Termini, Sicily.
    The 346th and 416th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 99th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), transfer from Navarin, Algeria to Oudna, Tunisia with
B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On Santa Isabel Island in the Solomon Islands, B-24's bomb the shore of
Rekata Bay W of the Borokeiello Point area. B-25's and US Navy fighters
strafe barges on the NE coast of Gizo Island. Munda Airfield on New Georgia
Island, principal objective of C Solomons campaign, is taken by XIV Corps
forces after 12 continuous days of fierce fighting in the jungle area.
  The 372d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
based on Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands, begins operating from
Guadalcanal Island in the Solomon Islands with B-24's. The squadron will
fly it's first mission on Saturday.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, 30+ B-25's pound barges near Madang and at Alexishafen,
and hit the Nuru River bridge and towns of Bogadjim and Saidor; a single
B-24 bombs Finschhafen while another hits Vitu Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago. Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm A Moore takes command of the newly
formed Second Air Task Force based at the recently constructed advance
airfield at Tsili Tsili, New Guinea; strikes from here will facilitate
operations against Lae, New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Aug 1993 to 5 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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There are 10 messages totalling 541 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 6 AUG 43
  2. information
  3. British cruiser Delhi
  4. MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields
  5. INF: Andrew Query
  6. NAV: A question about frigates (modern) (3)
  7. USAAF 7-8 AUG 43
  8. Shipping losses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 07:24:18 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 6 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 6 AUGUST 1943

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    A B-25 of the 10th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 25th Bombardment
Group (Medium), and US Navy land-based aircraft sink U-615 at l2-38N
64-15W.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    HQ 479th Antisubmarine Group and it's 4th and 19th Antisubmarine
Squadrons (Heavy) transfer with B-24's from St Eval to Dunkeswell, England.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    The 352d Fighter Squadron, 353d Fighter Group, transfers from Goxhill
to Raydon, England with P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first combat
mission on Monday and will remain at this station until Apr 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 60+ B-26's hit Bronte, Catania, and Randazzo and the area N
of the Adrano-Biancavilla road; 20+ others bomb road intersections in
Adrano and Bronte; and 100+ P-40's attack shipping and shore targets in the
Messina area while 30 others attack shipping on the W coast.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Sicily, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb
coastal roads near Messina; B-26's and B-25's hit a road junction SW of
Badiazza and railroad bridges N of Gesso; Northwest African Tactical Air
Force (NATAF) light and medium bombers hit roads, junctions, and buildings
in the Troina, Adrano, Biancavilla, Tortorici, Bronte, Piranino, and Ran-
dazzo areas and the Bagnara Italy area; and fighter-bombers hit shipping
from Vibo Valentia S to the Straits of Messina.
    On the ground in Sicily, US troops are unable to cross the Furiano
River as fierce resistance continues. At Troina, troops push through the
town and 1 mile (1.6 km) to the E before opposition halts them. The British
take Biancavilla, and Adrano falls as the enemy pulls out during the night
of 6/7 Aug.
    HQ 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 32d, 353d and 419th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) transfer with B-17's from St-Donat, Algeria
to Oudna, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On Santa Isabel Island in the Solomon Islands, 20 P-39's and P-40's hit
the Tanagaba Harbor area; and 24 B-17's and B-24's, 24 B-25's, and 50+ US
Navy and US Marine Corps fighters and dive bombers pound the Rekata Bay
area, hitting bivouac and supply areas.
  The 63d Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, arrives on
Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands from the US with C-47's. The
squadron begins flying missions upon arrival.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  During the night of 6/7 Aug, B-24's bomb Laha Airfield on Amboina Island
in the Celebes Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 16:58:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: information

Silvio, here some notes on the cruisers you asked for.

The Adventure is a ww1 cruiser(launched 1904).
All I could find was a statement of 1919: should never be used again,
except in great emergency. This means IMO waiting for scrap.

The other 6 are all of the same class and known as the Emergency War
Programmme ships.(ww1)
12 ships were ordered, 4 cancelled(Daedalus,Daring,Desparate and Dryad)
8 ships served in ww2 as obselate cruisers only for escort duties.
1 became a war loss(Dunedin)
1 goes to the Polish Navy in 1943(Dragon)
So the 6 you mentioned have survived the WWII.

Some data:
 Delhi      20-sep-1940 interception of Vichy cruiser (Primauguet) and
                        escort to Casablanca.
                   1947 is to be fitted out as a stationary drillship
                        for R.N.V.R.
 Durban      8-dec-1941 Singapore
            14-feb-1942 Batavia, evacuated US Adm.Hart to Colombo.
 Dauntless     jul-1928 grounded by Nova Scotia, heavy damaged.
                   1930 again in service after complete refit.
 Diomede                served in New Zealand division for over 10 yrs.
 Danae      21-feb-1942 under Vice Admiral Helfrich to Western Striking
                        Force, based  Batavia.
            26-feb-1942 Sweep to NW, no result.
            27-feb-1942 Sweep to N,  no result.
            28-feb-1942 Last sweep and back to Colombo.

Jane's give the name Danea to a cancelled (1947) ship of the Daring class.
This means that in 1947 the cruiser Danea was out of service.
The other ships, I found only the Gunboat Tern, a WWII loss.

Peter de Lange
mimhcb@rulmvs.leidenuniv.nl

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 10:14:46 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: British cruiser Delhi

The Delhi is also of interest in that, about halfway through the war, she
  was refitted in an American yard with five (?) American 5"/38 Dual-
  Purpose guns in single-gun turrets for a main battery.

Apparently, this was a very successful armament, but the ship herself was
  probably inferior in design and strength to an American Fletcher-class
  destroyer, despite her larger tonnage -- and had a larger crew at risk.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:29:27 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields

        From: Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@dsu1.dsu.nodak.edu>
        Subject: Re: MISC: B-24 raids on Ploesti oil fields
        Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 13:28:43 MDT

        On Monday 2 Aug, John Peterson asked:

...
        Since 1991, the U. S. Postal Service has produced a series of eight
        stamps each year to commemorate (sp?) U. S. envolvment in WW II.  You
        can buy all eight on a sheet that includes a map of the world showing
        the progress of the Allied forces.  I don't have my stamps with me
        (I'm not really a stamp collector, but this is a well done series)
        but if memory serves stamps from last year included:  Doolittle's
        Raid, Midway & Coral Sea, Operation Torch, and a "Homefront" stamp.

        Steve Alvin
        Dickinson State University
        STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
        **********************************************************************
        *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
        *Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
        **********************************************************************

     Also, please note that each year there has been a commemorative book
issued as well. This is on the order of a descriptive narrative, with
spaces left to paste in the appropriate stamp. Each book comes with a full
set of the stamps, and I think the total cost was around $ 20.00. I can't
remember what the quality of the narritive was like (I moved recently, and
these are still packed), but the pictures were good, if I remember
correctly.

     Certain post offices seem to have been designated as major suppliers
of all the various commemorative stamps the post office issues. Check
with your local post office for the nearest one to you. It's possible that
they may still have copies of the 1991 and 1992 issues: I know I found the
1991 book in mid 1992. Perhps they'll tell you where to call and/or write
to order them.

                                                Regards,
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@nic.near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:22:00 CDT
From:    Bill Kupersmith <BLAWRKWY@UIAMVS.BITNET>
Subject: INF: Andrew Query

During the Second World War, and I believe for a great many
years before, the Royal Navy, or perhaps specifically the
Admiralty, was referred to as "Andrew" or "the Andrew."  Can
anyone tell us when and why the expression originated?

--Bill Kupersmith
Univ. of Iowa

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:26:56 -0500
From:    Glenn Millard <A_MILLARDGD@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU>
Subject: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

Sorry, to be off the subject of this list. I looked around in our newgroups
for a better group and couldn't find one. With many naval experts on this
list I'm sure one of them could give me a quick yes or no answer to my question.
I was recently talking to a friend of mine about the USS Lexington now on
display at Corpus Christi. The discussion strayed to a mention about a trip
of his to the Northeast, New Hampshire or Vermont, where he visited the
Bath Iron Works. They work on the new modern frigates for the US Navy.
He heard there that the new frigates could do 60 knots and stop in their
length from a speed like this. For a ship this seems extreme, even now days.
Fact or Fiction?

 Respond to me directly since this is off subject for the list.
 However, if you want to here more about the Lady Lex let me know, I got
 to tour her a month ago.

 Glenn Millard
 Academic Support
 Stephen F. Austin State University
 Internet: a_millardgd@ccsvax.sfasu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 14:35:33 EDT
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

60 knots????????????????????????????  Are these some kind of SR-71
ships???  I know a fast sealift ship maxes out at around 30 knots.
These are about as fast as they get for merchant ships.  Carriers are a
little faster, but 60 knots.  That seems extreme.  Stopping in a length
of a ship is pretty extreme as well.  I wouldn't buy a used car from
this friend based upon these stories.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 15:47:33 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 7-8 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 7 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (HQ AAF)
    The AAF Redistribution Center is established at Atlantic City, New
Jersey to receive, rehabilitate, and reassign personnel returning from
overseas.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 150 B-25's attack Randazzo; and 140+ P-40's attack shipping
at Messina and in the Straits, and shipping and shore-supply stores along
the NE coast.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Sicily throughout the day Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force
(NATBF) medium and light bombers pound Randazzo, the enemy's key withdrawal
point; Maletto is also bombed; P-40's and A-36's strafe and bomb small
craft between Sicily and mainland Italy, motor transport near Randazzo, a
warehouse N of Messina, dumps on the toe of Italy, and vehicles and commu-
nications targets in the Sant' Agata di Militello, Bronte, Cesaro, Torto-
rici, Castiglione di Sicilia and Riposto areas. In Italy, Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-25's in 2 forces hit the landing ground at
Crotone while B-26's bomb the railroad bridge at Marina di Cantanzaro and
highway bridge over the Angitola River.
    On the ground in Sicily, US forces improve their positions on the N
coast in the San Fratello region against heavy resistance. During the night
of 7/8 Aug, a small amphibious force lands on the coast 2 miles (3.2 km) E
of Sant' Agata di Militello, greatly aiding progress along the coast. Other
forces begin a drive on Randazzo.
    HQ 5th Bombardment Wing transfers from Chateaudun, Algeria to Depienne,
Tunisia.
    HQ 47th Bombardment Wing (Medium) transfers from Souk-el-Arba to Hamma-
met, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, 16 B-24's and 40+ B-25's, plus nearly 30 US Navy
airplanes, pound the harbor and shore areas of Bairoko on New Georgia
Island.
  The 64th Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, transfers with
C-47's from Tontouta, New Caledonia to Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides
Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-24's thoroughly pound the Salamaua area and also hit
Kela Village. On Timor Island, B-25's hit Cape Chater Airfield and Lautem.

SUNDAY, 8 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Air Support Command Mission 15: 36 B-26's are dispatched to
Poix/Nord Airfield, France but the formation is turned back by weather.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 90+ B-25's bomb the Randazzo area; 130+ P-40's hit shipping
at Messina and provide ground support in NE Sicily as US and British forces
push E and N, capturing Sant' Agata di Militello, Monte Camolato, and
Bronte.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's hit highway and
rail bridges at Angitola, Italy, while P-38's strafe trains and other
targets of opportunity SW of the town. In Sicily, Northwest African Tacti-
cal Air Force (NATAF) light and medium bombers pound Randazzo; fighters hit
road targets N of Etna, shipping in the Straits of Messina and cover ground
forces at Sant' Agata di Militello.
    HQ 63d Fighter Wing transfers from Maison Blanche to Rerhaia, Algeria.
    HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from Souk-el-Arba to
Soliman, Tunisia.
    The 352d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers with B-17's from St-Donat, Algeria to Oudna, Tunisia.
    The 416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force, arrives at Al-
giers, Algeria from England where it trained with Beaufighters.
    The 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force, arrives at Tafara-
oui, Algeria from England where it trained with Beaufighters. The squadron
flies it's first combat mission today.
    The 445th, 447th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 321st
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfer with B-25's from Souk-el-Arba to
Soliman, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On Kolombangara Island in the Solomon Islands, 23 B-25's, with P-38's,
P-39's, and US Navy F4U's as cover, bomb Vila and Buki harbor.
  The 72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
which has been operating from Guadalcanal Island with B-17's since Oct 42,
ceases combat operations and regroups at it's base on Espiritu Santo Island
in the New Hebrides Islands. The squadron will transition to B-24D's and
re-enter combat in Oct 43.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-24's attack Larat, shipping at Semboh, and barges at
Kokas.
  The 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, based at Amberley Field,
25 miles (40 km) W of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia begins operating from
Port Moresby, New Guinea with P-38's. The squadron will fly it's first
mission on Thursday.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 16:00:58 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

This is an area in which I have some small expertisse :-).

To keep it on charter, I'll compare the procdedures for "getting under
way" for 1943 and 1993.  (Gas turbine types will correct me if I'm
way wrong on any points?)

1943-A frigate's engineers ("Black Gang", a hold over from coal fired days)
     would arrive at the ship at least 8 hours in advance (if they ever
     left it) and light the fires under the boilers.  They would have to
     carefully heat several thousand gallons of water and tons of steel
     to operating temperatures.  Emergencies would cause them to take
     dangerous shortcuts but 4 hours would generally be minimum time.

     With the equipment on hand they could produce 25 knots if everything
     worked well.

     To stop the ship in an emergency, a "crash-back", or emergency backing
     manuever would involve closing the ahead throttle, and opening the
     astern throttle to first slow, then stop, the ahead turbines and start
     the astern turbines turning, being careful not to do this so fast that
     you destroyed a ton or more of finely machined turbines and reduction
     gears. Ideally this could be done in under a minute, if the ship wasn't
     going too fast.

     Picture the above procedure taking place while the captain is screaming
     into the intercom that a carrier has just cut across your bow to avoid
     a kamikaze :-(.

1993-The frigate's engineers, now almost jet engine mechanics (the turbines
     on the new FFG's are barely removed from fighter engines) arrive early
     enough to make sure that everything is in it's proper place.  In an
     emergency, the topside crew had better move VERY fast to remove the
     mooring lines if the engineers announce they're ready to go.  (You'll
     hear various estimates of times to go from "cold iron" to "under way"
     but I've  SEEN a FFG move in under 10 minutes, with a very unhappy
     crew.)

     The speed of the ship is controled by a panel on the bridge and the
     force of the engines is transmitted by a "variable pitch" propellor,
     a "screw" in Navy parlance, which turns at a constant velocity and
     has it's "bite" changed to produce more speed.  With this system you
     can go from "full ahead" to "emergency back" by turning a knob.  This
     would give the impression to a "old timer" that the ships can "stop
     on a dime" but several thousand tons of ship just don't DO that :-).
     Various tricks, including hard left or right rudder will further
     reduce stopping distance by slamming the ship broadside to its original
     direction.

Just my pre-budget $0.02 worth,

Larry J

'

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 18:40:11 -0230
From:    NAME <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: Shipping losses

I can't help you out with merchant shipping losses, but there is
a recent book that addresses the question of warship losses.
David Brown's _Warship Losses of World War II_ was published in
1990 by Arms & Armour Press of London, England (16.95 pounds
sterling; ISBN 0-85368-802-8). According to a review, Brown "has
compiled the most complete and detailed record of the more than
1600 warships and vessels lost during World War II. It is the
first single-volume reference to offer such information. The book
includes a mass of appendices, indexes of principal battles and
actions, ship names and most importantly a commentary which
allows the reader to track the vast war at sea from 1939 to
1945." The book includes a "statistical analysis [which] outlines
warship losses by ship type, area, country, cause (e.g. air
attack, submarine torpedo), and by year."

I have no idea whether the desired information on shipping losses
is included, but you might check out John Terraine's _Business in
Great Waters: The U-boat Wars, 1916-1945_ (London: Leo Cooper,
1991; 19.50 pounds sterling; ISBN 0-85052-7600). Unfortunately,
this book only examines the struggle with Germany. Two other
books with a similar focus are Jak Showell's _U-Boat Command:
Battle of the Atlantic_ (London: Conway Maritime Press, 1989 [I
believe Naval Institute Press released this in the US], 1989) and
V.E. Tarrant's _The U-Boat Offensive, 1914-1945_ (Annapolis,
Naval Institute Press, 1989; ISBN 0-87021-764-X). Jurgen Rohwer's
_Axis Submarine Successes, 1939-1945_ (Naval Institute Press,
1983) claims to provide complete statistics of every Axis
submarine success in World War II.

You didn't indicate whether you were interested in losses on the
"other" side. A new book by Mark P. Parillo, _The Japanese
Merchant Marine in World War II_ (Annapolis, Naval Institute
Press, 1993; $28.95, ISBN 1-55750-677-9) is an exceptionally
detailed and exhaustive study of its subject.

Actually, the more I wander on, the more I can appreciate the
challenge posed by your question. I can't really think of any
single-volume reference that would provide the kind of month-by-
month summary of shipping losses that you seek. Maybe some of the
titles I've suggested can help, but it may well be that what you
want has not yet been assembled.

Olaf

Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Aug 1993 to 6 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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There are 2 messages totalling 90 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Need shipping losses tables...
  2. PLEASE COPY THIS DISK

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 20:28:34 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: Need shipping losses tables...

> I need a reference for shipping losses for each month of the war. Number
> of ships and tonnage from all causes.  Any suggestions?
>
> Larry J
 For the US what about the Maritime Administration ( Is it part of Dept of
Commerce or Transportation?) Maybe I can dig up a number and call them here in
Washington next week.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com or bsmart@verdix.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Aug 1993 21:53:44 -0400
From:    "B.R. Samizdat Express" <samizdat@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: PLEASE COPY THIS DISK

PLEASE COPY THIS DISK -- UPDATE 8/1/93

from:
The B&R Samizdat Express
PO Box 161
West Roxbury, MA 02132
samizdat@world.std.com

(Reminder -- We're the folks who are making public-
domain Internet information available on disk,
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If you didn't see our initial message, where we
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just let us know and we'll send you a copy of that
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It's been a busy week:
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------------------------------

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There is one message totalling 35 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Need shipping losses tables...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Aug 1993 23:22:13 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Need shipping losses tables...

> > I need a reference for shipping losses for each month of the war. Number
> > of ships and tonnage from all causes.  Any suggestions?

> > Larry J
>  For the US what about the Maritime Administration ( Is it part of Dept of
> Commerce or Transportation?) Maybe I can dig up a number and call them here in
> Washington next week.

> Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com or bsmart@verdix.com)

Thanks for the offer.  The Naval Historical Center recommended the book
below for the U-Boat losses, but I still need a general merchant vessel loss
listing if I can find it.

Larry J

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Title:          Axis submarine successes, 1939-1945 / by Jurgen Rohwer ;
                   introductory material translated by John A. Broadwin.
 Author(s):      Rohwer, Jurgen.
 Other titles:   U-Boot-Erfolge der Achsenmachte, 1939-1945. English
 Publisher:      Annapolis, Md. : Naval Institute Press, c1983.
 Description:    xxii, 386 p. : maps ; 17 x 22 cm.
 Notes:          Updated translation of: Die U-Boot-Erfolge der Achsenmachte,
                   1939-1945.
                 Includes indexes.
 ISBN:           0870210823
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Aug 1993 to 8 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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There are 3 messages totalling 206 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 9 AUG 43
  2. AirLifeLine
  3. Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~#

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Aug 1993 07:17:19 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 9 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 9 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 1 B-24 flies photo reconnaissance over various
Kiska Island sites.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Air Support Command Missions 16A and 16B: 72 B-26's are dispatched
to the St Omer/Ft Rouge Airfield in France; clouds prevent bombing and only
1 aircraft hits the target at 1904 hours; 11 aircraft are damaged and 6 men
are WIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, B-25's hit Divieto and a nearby tunnel W of Spadafora San
Martino, and attack special points in the battle area of NE Sicily; P-40's
hit shipping at Messina, Milazzo, and Palmi.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb crossroads N
of Messina, Sicily. In Italy, B-25's hit Cantanzaro and Soverato River
bridges, B-26's attack Angitola River bridges, P-40's sweep over S Sardi-
nia, and P-38's hit a lighthouse and other targets of opportunity in S
Italy. In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) bombers hit
the Gesso road junction; fighters concentrate on highways and junctions and
also hit rail sidings and gun positions in areas around Linguaglossa, Flo-
resta, Falcone, Patti, Orlando, Novara di Sicilia, and Milazzo.
    On the ground in Sicily, US troops reach Torrenuovo, and, to the S,
drive the enemy back to the Simeto River between Cesaro and Randazzo.
    HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) transfers from Malta to Torrente
Comunelli, Sicily.
    The 446th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 321st Bombardment Group
(Medium), transfers with B-25's from Souk-el-Arba to Soliman, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, 1O B-25's, with fighter cover, bomb Vila on
Kolombangara Island. Shortly thereafter 22 B-24's strike the same target.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-17's, B-24's, and B-25's bomb Salamaua, Lae, Nuk Nuk,
Samoa Harbor at the mouth of the Francisco River, a barge near Reiss Point,
and bridges on the Bogadjim-Ramu road. Barges and machinegun positions along
Borgen Bay on New Britain Island, installations at Unea Island in the
Bismarck Archipelago, and targets of opportunity at Alilit in the Moluccas
Islands are bombed. Amboina Island, in the Moluccas Islands is thoroughly
pounded.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Aug 1993 12:36:54 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: AirLifeLine

Larry,
I know this does not belong in this group however, (1) there are a
few pilots and/or friends of pilots reading this and (2) it's nice
to see an uplifting news item instead of all the stuff we read
about and see on TV.




The following Ann Landers column appeared in my local newspaper on Monday,
August 2, 1993.  For those of you unfamiliar with Ann Landers, she writes a
syndicated newspaper column giving advise on various subjects to people who
write her with a problem.  I thought this one would be of particular
interest to the aviation community especially in the U.S.

               AirLifeLine: free air travel for patients

"Dear Ann Landers:  As a former B-52 navigator and now a private pilot,
I love flying.  In early 1992, I heard of an organization called
AirLifeLine.  This is a group of volunteer pilots from around the nation
who donate their time, skills, planes and fuel to provide free air
transportation to ambulatory medical patients.

"I received the first call from AirLifeLine two months after placing myself
on its roster.  A 17-year-old cancer patient's condition had worsened, and
he had to go to San Francisco for treatment immediately.  'Jack' lived in
an isolated part of Northern California.  He was too sick to take an
eight-hour bus ride and couldn't afford an airline ticket.

"Nothing prepared me for what ran through my head when I saw this kid.  My
first thought was, 'How in the world am I going to fit that wheelchair into
my plane?'  I was also a little annoyed because Jack seemed to have an
'attitude' and made some belittling comments about my 'bug-smasher.'

"I finally realized that Jack didn't have an attitude--he was just plain
scared.  I gave him a headset so we could talk without shouting and asked
him to help me by looking up radio frequencies and taxiway signposts.  He
stopped being an ambulance passenger and became a crew member.

"Although the flying was pretty routine, I felt different.  In fact, I felt
terrific.  I have never experienced such an overwhelming sense of
accomplishment as I did that day.  AirLifeLine and I save Jack and his
family a lot of anxiety and expense.

"Ann, I hope your column will direct attention to this incredible
public-service organization.  We desperately need donations and more
volunteer pilots.  I also want to put out a call to patients, their
families, physicians and social workers: USE US.  If the airlines or other
transportation companies won't take you because of your condition, or if
the cost of transportation for treatment is beyond your means, call
AirLifeLine.  The toll-free number is 1-800-446-1231.  We go strictly on
the basis of need, and we fly on your schedule, not ours.--Dale F. Brown,
pilot, AirLifeLine"

Ann Landers' response is:

"Dear Dale Brown:  We checked out AirLifeLine, and it came up with a 100
percent, five-star rating for competence, compassion and generosity.
AirLifeLine is a brilliant, humanitarian concept, and I am delighted to
tell the world about it.

"My readers should also know that patients are permitted to take a companion
along for emotional support.  Also, in order to qualify for AirLifeLine,
patients must have a letter from their doctor or social worker indicating
the diagnosis and the reason for the trip.  They must also have some
evidence that there is financial need for this service.

"AirLifeLine provides transportation from airport to airport.  Patients must
be able to get to and from the airports on their own.

"I don't usually pitch my reader for contributions, but if anyone out there
would like to send a few dollars to this truly great group, I think it
would be mighty nice.  My check for $100 goes in the mail today.  The
address is: AirLifeLine, 1716 X Street, Sacramento, CA 95818, USA."


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 03:15:00 -0400
From:    "Helena M. Menezes 30935" <HMENEZES@WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~#

          Silvio,

          "I don't know who you are, or where you are..."
          Gra@as a esse tipo de lista, infelizmente quando nao se tem o
          endere@o de uma determinada pessoa, a gente tem que mandar a msg
          para todo mundo (como e' o caso aqui...)

          Bem, primeiramente foi uma surpresa para min encontrar um
          Brasileiro por aqui na WWII. Que tipo de assunto te interessa
          mais da segunda guerra? Voce esta conectado com alguma
          universidade para ter acesso a BITNET/INTERNET?
          Estou morando aqui nos E.U. ha quase 9 anos e acho muito bom
          manter contato com outros Brasileiros. Se precisares de alguma
          coisa, e' so' dizer?

          Claudio.Braga@Permanet.Org@Internet

           (ou atraves do e-mail de minha esposa:
          Hmenezes@worldbank.org@internet)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Aug 1993 to 9 Aug 1993
***********************************************

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There are 6 messages totalling 234 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 10 AUG 43
  2. NAV: A question about frigates (modern) (2)
  3. Victoria Cross clipart
  4. NOST: Airshow in Indiana. (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 07:07:36 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 10 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 10 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, P-38's, P-40's, A-24's, B-24's and B-25's bomb
and strafe various targets on Kiska Island; direct hits are scored on
revetments W of the Wheat Grove and on gun emplacements, as well as on
buildings on Little Kiska Island.
    HQ Eleventh Air Force transfers from Elmendorf Field, Anchorage to Adak
Island.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (HQ AAF)
    Most Bombardment Groups/Squadrons (Dive) equipped with A-24's and
A-36's are redesignated Fighter-Bomber Groups/Squadrons.

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    The 14th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing,
ceases operating from Langley Field, Hampton, Virginia with B-24's and
returns to it's base at Camp Edwards Army Air Field, Falmouth, Massachu-
setts.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    B-25's attack Randazzo, Sicily while P-40's bomb and strafe shipping on
the SW coast of Italy and in the Straits of Messina.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    Brigadier General Ray A Dunn takes command of the Northwest African Air
Force Troop Carrier Command (Provisional). In Italy, Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) P-38's bomb and strafe communications targets
on the toe of Italy; and bridges at Angitola and N of Locri are attacked.
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) planes fly anti-shipping
sweeps over coastal areas of NE Sicily and the Straits of Messina, carry
out armored reconnaissance over the battle areas and toe of Italy, and bomb
Randazzo, Sicily.
    On the ground in Sicily, US Seventh Army forces pursue the enemy to a
point W of Naso near the N coast. During the night of 10/11 Aug, the US 3d
Infantry Division makes an amphibious landing on the coast, outflanking the
enemy E of Capo d'Orlando. The US 9th Infantry Division reaches a point N
of Bronte.
    HQ Twelfth Air Force transfers from Algeria to Tunisia.
    HQ 81st Fighter Group transfers from Monastir to Sidi Ahmed, Tunisia.
    The 84th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Malta to Torrente Comunelli, Sicily with A-20's.
    The 342d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Chateaudun-du-Rhumel, Algeria to Pont-du-Fahs, Tunisia with
B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, Colonel William A Matheny becomes acting Command-
ing General, XIII Bomber Command, a position he is officially assigned to
on 30 Sep 43. P-40's and P-39's turn back about 40 fighters attacking US
bulldozers working on Munda Airfield on New Georgia Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, 20+ B-24's pound airfields in the Salamaua area; 12 B-25's
hit barges in the Lae area and AA positions W of Borgen Bay on New Britain
Island; and 6 A-20's bomb and strafe barges in Labu Lagoon and on Gasmata
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 11:01:38 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

On friday, 6 August, Glenn Millard asked:

> The discussion strayed to a mention about a trip
> of his to the Northeast, New Hampshire or Vermont, where he visited the
> Bath Iron Works. They work on the new modern frigates for the US Navy.
> He heard there that the new frigates could do 60 knots and stop in their
> length from a speed like this. For a ship this seems extreme, even now days.
> Fact or Fiction?

Either your friend or someone at Bath is pulling you leg!  First, the
U. S. Navy is not building frigates right now.  The only surface
combatant under construction, other than carriers, are the Arleigh
Burke destroyers (and maybe the last of the Ticonderoga cruisers?).
The Burke can probably make about 35 knots (for security reasons the
navy won't give an exact speed), a far cry from 60!  The last U. S.
frigates were the O. H. Perry  class.  Their top speed was only about
29- 30 knots.

I apologize for going off the topic, but I thought others on the list
might be interested.


Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 13:30:42 -0300
From:    bechthold blain <bech8607@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: Victoria Cross clipart

I wonder if anyone out there can help me.  I'm working on a project in
which I need a graphic image of the Victoria Cross medal.  Can anyone tell
me where I can find such an image, or perhaps E-mail me one.

Thanks in advance


Mike Bechthold
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 12:36:57 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: NOST: Airshow in Indiana.

There will be "vintage" aircraft at the Mt. Comfort airshow near Indianapolis
the last weekend in August.  Your faithful list-tender intends to be there.
Anyone else going?  Will Miss Mitchell make an appearance?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 12:50:52 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST: Airshow in Indiana.

> There will be "vintage" aircraft at the Mt. Comfort airshow near Indianapolis
> the last weekend in August.  Your faithful list-tender intends to be there.
> Anyone else going?  Will Miss Mitchell make an appearance?

We're not scheduled to be at that show.

However, if anyone knows a contact promoting the show, we can make an
attempt since Miss Mitchell happens to be confirmed free that weekend...

(All it takes is money... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Aug 1993 16:32:26 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

> He heard there that the new frigates could do 60 knots and stop in their
> length from a speed like this. For a ship this seems extreme, even now days.
> Fact or Fiction?

A little mathematics.  60 kts converts to about 90 feet per second.  We can
calculate the deceleration the ship undergoes.  Turns out that it's simply:

  a = 126/L     where L is the ship's length, "a" being deceleration in
G's.  A ship of length 126ft, halting from 60 kts in its own length,
experiences 1G.  Double the length, halve the gees.  Somebody care to plug
a Perry's length into this?

Gotta say I find it dubious.  I don't know of a ship that can even *turn*
in its own length at half that speed, let alone stop.

But then, there's the account I read in Proceedings about the Iowas.
During their latest mobilization, one of the New Jersey's officers wrote an
article about her handling characteristics.  He described an emergency halt
procedure in which the screws were set to full reverse and the ship's twin
rudders were turned independently.  The starboard rudder is turned hard
aport, the port rudder turned hard starboard, the two closing together like
a pair of saloon doors.  The officer referred to this as "closing the barn
doors" and claimed a tremendous braking effect, "like standing on a flatbed
truck as it locks up its brakes at 60 mph."  He claimed that an object
thrown off the bow would not have passed the ship's stern before she
halted, i.e., stopping from 30 kts in a shiplength.

I take that with a truckload of salt.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Aug 1993 to 10 Aug 1993
************************************************

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Status: O

There are 9 messages totalling 501 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 11 AUG 43
  2. Wewak Mission, Aug 43
  3. NAV: A question about frigates (modern) (2)
  4. Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~#
  5. Announcing a New List: H-RHETOR
  6. ADMIN: End of Semester Reminder
  7. EN: Arnhem
  8. Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~# #

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 07:08:29 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 11 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
WEDNESDAY, 11 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, B-24's, B-25's, A-24's, and P-38's pound Kiska
Island targets in 11 attack missions; later, 10 reconnaissance, strafing
and photo missions to Kiska are flown by 3 P-38's, 26 P-40's, 4 F-5A's and
1 B-24. 9 B-24's from Attu Island drop bombs and incendiaries on Paramushi-
ru Island in the Kurile Islands, including Kashiwabara Airfield and Shimus-
hu Island where the Kataoka naval base and staging area are hit. 40 enemy
aircraft challenge the attackers, which score 4 confirmed kills, 1 proba-
ble, and 4 possibles.

  CANADA
    The Quebec Conference begins. President Franklin D Roosevelt and Prime
Minister Winston S Churchill discuss the entire spectrum of world opera-
tions and decide on the future action of Anglo-US armed forces.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force)
    The 76th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, transfers from Lingling
to Hengyang, China with P-40's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 90+ B-25's bomb a bridge, roads, railway, and the city area
in and about Randazzo. About 170 P-40's hit Randazzo, shipping at Milazzo
and Messina, roads and trains near Messina, and troop movements and evacua-
tions in NE Sicily.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Italy, the Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) again hits
communications targets on the toe of Italy; B-17's hit the marshalling yard
at Terni, B-25's bomb the Angitola River bridges and B-26's and P-38's
attack a bridge at Cantanzaro. Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF)
fighter-bombers support the US Seventh Army's landing E of Orlando, Sicily
by attacking troop concentrations, gun positions, and communications lines
leading to the area.
    On the ground in Sicily, US Seventh Army forces take Naso and press
closer to Randazzo. Medium bombers support the British Eighth Army by
raiding the Fiumefreddo and Randazzo areas.
    The 111th Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 68th Reconnaissance Group,
transfers from Gela to Termini, Sicily with P-51's. A detachment continues
to operate from Gela until Sep 43.
    The 341st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Chateaudun-du-Rhumel, Algeria to Pont-du-Fahs, Tunisia with
B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, 5 B-24's hit a supply area on the E side of
Suavanau Point, Santa Isabel Island and on Papatura Fa Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  A B-24 on armored reconnaissance sinks an enemy freighter NW of Kavieng
on New Ireland Island in the Bismarck Archipelago. The Second Air Task
Force completes a movement to Tsili Tsili Airfield, New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


----------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop      |  Those who have long enjoyed such privileges |
|  Bellcore           |  as we enjoy forget in time that men have    |
|  Piscataway, NJ     |  died to win them.     FDR                   |
|  USA                |  jem3@cc.bellcore.com                        |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 07:44:52 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Wewak Mission, Aug 43

The following is from the Air Force New Service.


AFNEWSIIOP082  KNOCKOUT AT WEWAK
BY K. DAVID HESKETT
AIR FORCE HISTORICAL RESEARCH AGENCY, MAXWELL AFB, ALA.
     An hour before midnight, 16 August, 1943, 50 B-24's from the U.S.
Fifth Air Force lumbered off airfields near Port Moresby, New Guinea.
Course:  north by northwest, over the rugged Owen Stanley Range.
Destination: four Japanese airfields at Wewak, 500-miles (800-km) away.
     For months the Allies had watched patiently as the Japanese built
up their air power in preparation for an offensive.  Unaware of our new
refueling strip at Tsili Tsili [200-miles (320-km) closer to Wewak],
the enemy felt safely out of range of fighter-supported bombers, and
complacently parked over 200 planes wingtip to wingtip.
     The target was ripe, and Lieutenant General George C. Kenney's
"kids" were eager for the task.  Kenney had formed the Fifth Air Force
out of dispirited units he called "the Goddamest mess you ever saw."
Faced by a numerically superior foe and constantly hampered by critical
shortages of planes, supplies and manpower, Kenney somehow managed to
reorganize and rearm his charge.  Infused with fresh fighting spirit,
the Fifth was earning a new name:  The "Flying Buccaneers."
     Shortly after 0000 hours, 17 August, the first "heavies" arrived,
dropping incendiary bombs to illuminate the target.  "Ken's Men"
[the 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy)] and "The Jolly Rogers" [90th
Bombardment Group (Heavy)] pressed the attack until 0300 hours.  The
U.S. Army Air Forces lost three bombers to anti-aircraft fire, but
accomplished the mission -- the Japanese airplanes were grounded and at
the mercy of a morning strike.
     Just after 0800 hours, 31 B-25 strafers from Dobodura and Port
Moresby roared in at tree level.  With their massed forward-firing guns
blazing, the "Grim Reapers" [3rd Bombardment Group (Medium)] and "Green
Dragons" [405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium)] raked the straight lines
of parked Japanese planes.  Surprised again, the enemy offered little
resistance.  As the Americans headed home, fires were visible
everywhere, mangled planes littered the runways and the "Grim Reapers"
had earned a Distinguished Unit Citation.  Eighty-five P-38s, their
range extended by refueling at Tsili Tsili, flew an uneventful escort
mission.
     On 18 August, bad weather hampered the "heavies," but 53 B-25s
fought through heavy anti-aircraft fire and enemy fighters to deliver
devastating strikes.  Despite flames bursting from the right wing of
his stricken B-25, Major Ralph Cheli tenaciously led his "Green Dragon"
flight through a punishing strafing and bombing attack.  Mission
completed, he turned command over to his wingman and crash-landed in
the ocean.  Cheli, with two crewmen, survived and was taken prisoner.
He died in captivity, but his heroism earned the Medal of Honor.  The
475th Fighter Group shot down 15 enemy fighters, earning a
Distinguished Unit Citation.
     Results:  More than 175 Japanese planes destroyed on the ground,
and at least 30 shot down.  Losses:  Five bombers and two fighters.
This two-day effort by Kenny's "Flying Buccaneers" left the Allies
virtually unchallenged in eastern New Guinea skies, set the stage for
the capture of Lae, and accelerated the pace of our advance toward
Japan.  (AFNS Features.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:00:00 CDT
From:    Bill Kupersmith <BLAWRKWY@UIAMVS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

I don't think anyone noticed that the original posting
regarding these 60 knot frigates said that they may have
been built in Vermont.  It would be interesting to hear
just where on the Vermont seacoast the shipyard is located.
If these ships were launched on the Vermont coast, it would
not surprise me that they are capable of 60 knots.  Are
they called the Green Mountain class?

--Bill Kupersmith
University of Iowa (which really does look as if it had a
seacoast after the recent floods)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:42:21 BRA
From:    "Silvio E.G. Melo" <COV90105@UFRJ.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~#

     Helena

     Mas que surpresa. Eu fiquei muito contente em saber que existe outros bra-
sileiros interessados em Segunda Guerra Mundial.
     Antes de Mais nada, desculpe a demora em responder, pois estou fazendo mes
trado na UFRJ e como ja estou na fase de elaboracao da minha tese, estou vindo
so duas vezes por semana a mesma. Alias a meu endereco e': COV90105@ufrj.bitnet
     Quanto aos meus principais interesses sobre o assunto que nos une, eu diri
a que tudo me interessa em se tratando de WWII, porem meu principal interesse e
na area de estrategia militar.
     Eu e um grupo de amigos aqui no Brasil, formamos um grupo, que na sua maio
ria, tambem se interessa, pela segunda guerra. Alguns sao "historiadores amador
es", e temos um outro polo de interesse, que e a elaboracao (e utilizacao) de
wargames, baseados principalmente nas grandes campanhas da Segunda Guerra, sem
fins comerciais.
     Fugindo um pouco do assunto, so para melhor informacao. Sou Engenheiro Nav
al, formado pela UFRJ e atualmente estou fazendo mestrado na area de Estruturas
Oceanicas, sendo minha especialidade, modelacao estrutural.
     Bom por hora, vou ficar por aqui. Estarei de novo na UFRJ na Sexta Feira
(apesar do 13 de agosto).             Silvio. E.G. Melo

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 09:27:42 -0700
From:    H-Rhetor <HATCHG@JKHBHRC.BYU.EDU>
Subject: Announcing a New List: H-RHETOR

============================
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------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 12:29:42 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: End of Semester Reminder

Hi, those of you who are leaving school or losing your net access for some
other reason are reminded to please unsubscribe from the list.  To do so
send

unsub wwii-l

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listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu or listserv@ubvm.bitnet

or send a note to me and I'll do it for you.

TIA,
Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 14:23:12 -0500
From:    Glenn Millard <A_MILLARDGD@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

About the modern frigates:
  After I posted the original message, I got to see a post card from the
  Bath Iron Works. They are on the coast in Maine, sorry for the location
  error. They are noted for having one of the largest cranes on the
  east coast. As for the speed of the frigates and their stopping distances
  I think everyone aggrees that there has been some exaggeration here, to
  phrase it kindly. However the discussion on how to stop frigates fast
  has been interesting. I think my question about this has been answered.
  Its probably about time to discontinue the off-list subject matter.

  To continue on topic:
   I assume the Batch Iron Works has been in business for a while. Does
   anyone know if they were around in WWII and if so, did they work on
   any Navy ships then. I assume there is some way to trace who built
   what. You always hear statistics about various fighting groups and
   their records (ie. Divisions, bomber and fighter groups). Did anyone
   keep records about production by manufacturer, I've seen this for
   aircraft production. What about ship production?

Glenn Millard
Academic Support
Stephen F. Austin State University
Internet: a_millardgd@ccsvax.sfasu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Aug 1993 21:40:50 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: EN: Arnhem

I think some of you might finthese extracts interesting as well as
disrbing:g:

REUTER
Wednesday 11-Aug-93 06:18 AM

ARNHEM WAR GRAVES DAUBED WITH SWASTIKAS


    NIJMEGEN, Netherlands (Reuter) - Right-wing extremists have
desecrated more than 200 graves of allied soldiers who fell in
the Battle of Arnhem.
    Two hundred and forty three British, Canadian, French,
Polish and Belgian graves were daubed with swastikas, [NAZI]
slogans and racist grafitti, police said Wednesday.
    The Commonwealth War Graves Commision in Britain said the
incident at the graveyard in Nijmegen, near Arnhem, was the
worst of its kind for many years.
    Most of those buried in the Jonkerbosch cemetery were
British soldiers who fell in the ill-fated World War II raid on
the bridge at Arnhem recounted in the book and film ``A Bridge
Too Far.''
    A spokeswoman at the commission said the incident would not
interefere with an annual ceremony to commemorate the daring
operation code-named ``Market Garden.''
 REUTER


.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 03:36:00 -0400
From:    "Helena M. Menezes 30935" <HMENEZES@WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Re: Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~# #

          Hi Silvio,

          Sera que voce e o teu grupo conseguem me ajudar?

          Eu tambem "estudo" WWII como hobby. Acho um assunto deveras
          fascinante pois explica "o porque" das coisas que acontecem hoje
          em dia. Aproveitando a oportunidade...

                 Como voce sabe, um dos motivos que levaram o  Brasil a
          entrar na guerra foi o torpedeamento, pelos alemaes, de navios
          Brasileiros. Bem, eu sempre ouvi que "quem afundou os primeiros
          navios nao foram os alemaes, e sim os americanos." O que faz
          muito sentido pois todo mundo sabe que os aliados precisavam de
          bases no Nordeste do Brasil, e o Getulio nao estava muito animado
          em entrar em nenhuma guerra.
                 Para encurtar a estoria... Foram os alemaes mesmo. Depois
          de varios livros sobre a guerra no atlantico, U-Boots, e ate
          mesmo uma entrevista com o Dr. Ernst Frohn, do Instituto
          Historico Alemao, aqui em Washington, "descobri" no "National
          Archives" o microfilme do Log-book do U-432, o submarino que
          afundou respectivamente o "Buarque" (em 15fev42) e o "Olinda" (em
          18fev42). Bem, ate ai' nenhuma novidade. O "problema" e' que no
          depoimento da tripulacao do "Buarque" (ate' isso deu pra achar
          por aqui!) varios tripulantes, o comandante, inclusive, mencionam
          um aviao que sobrevoou o navio e soltou um sinal
          luminoso...(???!!)
          Atraves do adido naval brasileiro aqui em Washington, recebi, do
          Ministerio da Marinha do Brasil, a "Historia Naval Brasileira"
          (Quinto Volume - Tomo II, 1985) em que na pagina 342,
          2.paragrafo, linha 4, le-se: "Hoje, sabe-se que os alemaes tinham
          uma aeronave espia~, com base em territorio norte-americano, para
          guiar os submarinos."(!!!?????)
                 Voces sabem de alguma coisa sobre o assunto? Nunca
          encontrei NADA escrito sobre isto. Nem mesmo uma linha. Ja
          perguntei a uma porcao de historiadores. Nada. Deixei ate aqui
          nesta rede que so se fala de WWII. Nada. O pessoal achou o
          assunto tao fantastico (imagine um aviao alemao EM TERRITORIO
          AMERICANO, depois de 7 de Dezembro de 1941!) que nem se deu ao
          trabalho de investigar. Sera que o Ministerio da Marinha sabe
          alguma coisa que nem os gringos aqui sabem? E voces?

          Claudio Braga (Claudio.Braga@Permanet.org@Internet)

          PS: Como eu te falei, pego tambem uma "carona" no endere@o da
          minha esposa: Hmenezes@worldbank.org@Internet (Helena)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Aug 1993 to 11 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There are 14 messages totalling 607 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 12 AUG 43 (2)
  2. Mt. Comfort airshow particulars (fwd) (2)
  3. NAV: A question about frigates (modern) (2)
  4. USAAF 28 JUL 43 (2)
  5. Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~# #
  6. meeting Tibbets (2)
  7. MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum
  8. INF: Shipyard stats.
  9. Luftwaffe victims

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 07:12:06 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 12 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
THURSDAY, 12 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutians Islands, B-24's and B-25's fly 26 bombing, strafing,
and radar and photo reconnaissance sorties over Kiska Island targets from
Adak Island. From Amchitka Island P-40's, P-38's, B-24's, B-25's, and
A-24's fly 70 bombing sorties over the island and are joined by B-24's,
P-40's, and F-5A's flying 6 reconnaissance and photo sorties. Targets
include the runway, harbor and shipping installations, army barracks, and
the Rose Hill area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Bomber Command Mission 81: The Ruhr is targetted with the bombers
concentrating on manufacturing installations and synthetic oil.
    1. 183 B-17's are dispatched to synthetic oil installations at Bochum,
Gelsenkirchen and Recklinghausen; some B-17's become separated on the bomb
run and bomb various targets of opportunity; 133 B-17's hit the targets at
0845-0925 hours; they claim 25-5-11 Luftwaffe aircraft; 23 B-17's are lost,
2 are damaged beyond repair and 103 are damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 49
WIA and 232 MIA.
    2. 147 B-17's are dispatched to manufacturing installations at Bonn;
110 hit the target at 0850-0858 hours; they claim 4-2-2 Luftwaffe aircraft;
2 B-17's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 69 are damaged; casual-
ties are 1 KIA, 7 WIA and 21 MIA.
    VIII Air Support Command Missions 17 and 18: 71 B-26's are dispatched
to the Poix/Nord Airfield in France; 34 hit the target at 1052 hours; 13
aircraft are damaged.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, 79 B-25's attack Falcone, Patti, Novara di Sicilia, and
Barcellona; P-40's bomb and strafe shipping at Messina.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Italy, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-25's attack
landing grounds at Crotone, and B-26's hit Grazzanise Airfield; they claim
9 fighters shot down. In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) P-40's and A-36's hit shipping along the NE coast and in the
Straits of Messina, attack gun positions and  vehicles at Capo Calava and E
of Randazzo, and hit a bridge at Taormina and roads in the Maletto-Fiumefr-
eddo areas; NATAF bombers attack Patti, Falcone, Barcellona, and Nunziata.
    On the ground in Sicily, the US Seventh Army continues to pursue the
enemy E along the N coast. Further inland, US forces gain a favorable posi-
tion from which to assault Randazzo, but the enemy withdraws during the
night of 12/13 Aug, precluding an attack. The British Eighth Army seizes
Maletto and Riposto.
    The 85th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 47th Bombardment Group
(Light), transfer from Malta to Torrente Comunelli, Sicily with A-20's.
    The 340th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Chateaudun-du-Rhumel, Algeria to Pont-du-Fahs, Tunisia with
B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, 20+ B-24's, with P-40 and F4U cover, bomb Kahili
Airfield on Bougainville Island, causing considerable damage in the dis-
persal and runway areas. The Allied airplanes claim 11 Zekes shot down; 1
P-40 and 1 F4U are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, B-25's hit the Bogadjim-Yaula road. In the Bismarck
Archipelago, A-20's bomb and strafe Gasmata Island and nearby barges; and a
B-24 hits Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island.
  The 432d Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, based at Amberley Field
near Brisbane, Queensland, Australia begins operating from Port Moresby,
New Guinea with P-38's. The squadron will fly it's first combat mission on
Friday.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 06:47:15 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Mt. Comfort airshow particulars (fwd)

I thought I'd share this with the list, sorry if it's out of your range.
As a general rule, we can post information about items of regional interest
to the list since no one knows who will be where when and this type of
thing might "make someone's weekend" :-).

Robert, I still don't have contact info, but I'll try contacting the
airport directly today.

Larry J

Forwarded message:
>
> Larry and Kim,
>
> According to the clipping (from the 1 August edition of the
> *Indianapolis Star*) that my friend Steve sent me, here are
> some of the performers expected to appear at the Mt. Comfort
> airshow:
>
>
> The Stars and Stripes civilian aerobatics team from Pennsylvania
>
> Clint McHenry, three-time US national aerobatics champion from
> Florida, flying a Russian-built Sukhoi Su-26M
>
> Bob and Pat Wagner of Troy, Ohio, a wing-walking act
>
> Bill Leff from Bloomington, Illinois, flying an aerobatic routine
> with a T-6 Texan trainer
>
> Steve Powell of Memphis, Tennessee, flying a sailplane
>
> Dan McCue of New York, flying a Russian Yak-11
>
> The Franfort skydiving exhibition team
>
> Venom jets piloted by Dave Vanliere and Ron Iberg
>
> PV-2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"
>
> B-17 (no mention as to version or owner)
>
> B-25 Mitchells (plural)
>
> P-51 Mustangs (plural)
>
> P-47 Thunderbolt
>
> F4U Corsair
>
> C-69 Constellation  (This I gotta see; the C-69 was the original
> version of the Connie.  I hope they got this right.)
>
> A-10 Warthog
>
> F-117 Stealth
>
> plus other current military aircraft, subject to availability
>
>
> Did I mention that there is another airshow the following weekend
> at the Clark County, Indiana airport, just across the Ohio river
> from Louisville?  About 20 P-51s are scheduled, with one flown by
> Chuck Yeager.  About 75-100 mostly WWII-vintage aircraft are
> expected.
>
> Dennis E. Sparks
> SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
> Lexington, Kentucky

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 09:07:22 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mt. Comfort airshow particulars (fwd)

> I thought I'd share this with the list, sorry if it's out of your range.
> As a general rule, we can post information about items of regional interest
> to the list since no one knows who will be where when and this type of
> thing might "make someone's weekend" :-).

And it's WWII related.  :-)

> Robert, I still don't have contact info, but I'll try contacting the
> airport directly today.

We've already been in contact with the airshow organizers and faxed a
proposal.  Because of the late date, it's unlikely Miss Mitchell will
be able to attend, but it wasn't eliminated as a possibility.

> > According to the clipping (from the 1 August edition of the
> > *Indianapolis Star*) that my friend Steve sent me, here are
> > some of the performers expected to appear at the Mt. Comfort
> > airshow:
> >
> > PV-2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"

This was just at our show.  I never got a chance to take a close look
at it, but it's definitely a unique aircraft.  Got some very nice pictures
of it, though.  Pretty.

> > B-17 (no mention as to version or owner)

Fuddy Duddy from National Warplane (Geneseo).

> > B-25 Mitchells (plural)

Panchito from National Warplane and another one, privately owned.  A nice
selection of B-25s, at least, with Panchito being a very nicely restored
aircraft (though I want to park Miss Mitchell next to it and compare :-)
and the other one which is, as I've heard, very complete in the "bells
and whistles" category (has oodles of original components installed, but
no word on the overall restoration).

> > P-51 Mustangs (plural)

Always.  :-)

> > C-69 Constellation  (This I gotta see; the C-69 was the original
> > version of the Connie.  I hope they got this right.)

Even if they didn't, a Connie all by itself is well worth the trip.  An
amazing airplane.  Especially when it's flying in tight formation with a
B-24 at 50 feet above the runway at high speed.  Incredible.

I never knew the Connie when it was in service.  Hoping I can arrange a
ride onboard one someday, because I'm convinced it's still one of the most
graceful, probably most comfortable, airliners (in airliner configuration)
ever flown.

> > A-10 Warthog
> >
> > F-117 Stealth

Bah.  Jets.  :-)

I'm told this show begins on Friday the 27th with a $5.00 ticket.  This
begins with an 8:00 p.m. (yes) flight schedules and a 9:00 hangar
dance.  The weekend costs $6.00 per day for adult/$3.00 for kids and is
open 8:00 a.m. to something later.  Flying is from noon until 4:00.

Sounds like fun.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 10:47:54 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

Glenn,

My wife's grandfather worked at the Bath Iron Works during WWII. He was a
welder and worked on assembling sections of Liberty Ships. He passed away
recently so I can't get any details of what ships he did work on. From the
discussions we did have about it, he said it was a very dangerous place to
work and he lost several friends to accidents etc. He also indicated it was
a very exciting and dynamic place to be. I'll talk to Grandmom and see if I
can get any more info.




Mike
MLONG@UCONNVM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 11:49:35 -0700
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 28 JUL 43

>>>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
>>>     VIII Bomber Command Mission Number 78: The aviation industry in
>>> Germany is targetted but bad weather hampers the raids. The targets ar e:
>>>       1. 182 B-17's are dispatched against the Fieseler Works at Kasse l,
>>> Germany; 58 hit the target at 1027-1054 hours; they claim 27-15-22
>>> Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17's are lost, 4 are damaged beyond repair and 54
>>> damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 71 MIA.
>>
>>What happens to the aircraft that are dispatched but aren't listed as
>>hitting the target? For example, in this raid only a third of the
>>dispatched bombers hit the target; what happened to the rest?
>
>There are always a certain percentage of aircraft that abort the
>mission due to mechanical trouble.  The second problem was weather.
>These aircraft did not have the electronic whizzbangs that would be
>introduced in the Fall of 1943.  If the target was in an occupied
>country, e.g., The Netherlands, there were rules prohibiting the
>indiscriminate dropping of bombs.  I am not sure what the rules
>were for Germany but if the target was overcast, the normal
>procedure was to hit the secondary target and/or targets of
>opportunity.  If they were socked in, you dropped your bombs in the
>water and headed back home.

Given that the weather was bad that mission, and that bombing raids
were flown in formation, how come some of the aircraft found the target
but most didn't?  It's hard to believe 124 out of 182 aircraft would
have to abort because of mechanical problems.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 14:32:47 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 28 JUL 43

> >>>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
> >>>     VIII Bomber Command Mission Number 78: The aviation industry in
> >>> Germany is targetted but bad weather hampers the raids. The targets ar e:
> >>>       1. 182 B-17's are dispatched against the Fieseler Works at Kasse l,
> >>> Germany; 58 hit the target at 1027-1054 hours; they claim 27-15-22
> >>> Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17's are lost, 4 are damaged beyond repair and 54
> >>> damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 71 MIA.
> >>
> >>What happens to the aircraft that are dispatched but aren't listed as
> >>hitting the target? For example, in this raid only a third of the
> >>dispatched bombers hit the target; what happened to the rest?
> >
> >There are always a certain percentage of aircraft that abort the
> >mission due to mechanical trouble.  The second problem was weather.
> >These aircraft did not have the electronic whizzbangs that would be
> >introduced in the Fall of 1943.  If the target was in an occupied
> >country, e.g., The Netherlands, there were rules prohibiting the
> >indiscriminate dropping of bombs.  I am not sure what the rules
> >were for Germany but if the target was overcast, the normal
> >procedure was to hit the secondary target and/or targets of
> >opportunity.  If they were socked in, you dropped your bombs in the
> >water and headed back home.
>
> Given that the weather was bad that mission, and that bombing raids
> were flown in formation, how come some of the aircraft found the target
> but most didn't?  It's hard to believe 124 out of 182 aircraft would
> have to abort because of mechanical problems.

Missions are rarely sent out en-masse.  Smaller numbers of aircraft are
dispatched with the next flight following later on.  Flights also depart
from many different airfields and take many different routes to target.
Weather can improve or get worse as the day goes on and weather can be
wildly different from different departure points.

What might be manageable for one flight could be completely different
for another.

If weather was bad, what the above suggests is that it was a bad day all
around for a mission, but some of the flights had weather marginal enough
to make the target.  In other words, it was bad odds for them all and
some made it through rather than good odds for all but most failed.

This reduces risk, increases chances of reaching the target and continually
disrupts recovery operations on the ground (the best way to keep fires
burning is keep the fire fighters under cover).  It also exhausts the
fighters who have limited time aloft with ammunition -- The more they
have the climb, fight, decend, land and rearm, the more likely you are
to disrupt them and catch them at a time convenient for you.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 17:47:40 BRA
From:    "Silvio E.G. Melo" <COV90105@UFRJ.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Msg to Silvio (Brazil) ~# #

     Carlos
     Desculpe se pensei se tratar de sua esposa Helena, eu nao entendi direito
que era esse o caso, tamanha a surpresa de encontrar um brasileiro "por ai" in-
teressado no assunto. Caso prefira podemos nos comunicar diretamente, sem ter
que passar pelo wwii-l ( envie diretamente para COV90105@ufrj.bitnet). Peco que
confirme novamente a conta que voce prefere que eu use para falar com voce.
     Sobre o que voce perguntou, uma coincidencia. Estou ajudando um amigo na
editoracao de um livro sobre este assunto. Foram ou nao os alemaes que torpedea
ram os nossos navios? A resposta como voce mesmo ja deu e sim. Pessoalmente eu
desconheco o fato da existencia de avioes espioes alemaes no continente america
no, porem e possivel que tais avioes fossem utilizados a partir das "vacas leit
eiras", algumas unidades foram construidas com um pequeno hangar, onde o aviao
ia desmontado e so era montado quando fosse necessario. Nao sei se alguma unida
de desse tipo teria sido utilizada na pratica e muito menos por aqui. Vou consu
ltar o meu amigo (Reinaldo) sobre o assunto, pois o especialista na area e ele.
     Sei que no momento nao e muito, mas em breve te dou uma resposta mais conc
lusiva. Espero que este novo contato seja proveitoso. Fico muito feliz por pode
r ajudar alguem, pois apesar de participar desta lista a quase dois anos, ate a
gora era apenas um mero ouvinte, sem muito o que dizer e com muito para ouvir.
                                       Silvio

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:06:59 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 12 AUG 43

>     1. 183 B-17's are dispatched to synthetic oil installations at Bochum,
> Gelsenkirchen and Recklinghausen; some B-17's become separated on the bomb
> run and bomb various targets of opportunity; 133 B-17's hit the targets at
> 0845-0925 hours; they claim 25-5-11 Luftwaffe aircraft; 23 B-17's are lost,
> 2 are damaged beyond repair and 103 are damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 49
> WIA and 232 MIA.

        I thought the crew for a B-17 was 10 men.  If true, where did the
2 extra MIAs come from.  I've noticed many of the reported MIAs don't
total the crew compliments for the lost planes.  Are these MIAs from
other damaged planes (such as ball-turret gunners) or did B-17s carry
extra personnel at times?

        Anyway, 23 lost B-17s is a staggering amount of men and machines!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
That's BigbooTAY!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:32:49 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: meeting Tibbets

WARNING:  Name-dropping about to commence.  Please stand by...

I had the opportunity to meet and talk with Paul Tibbets last
Friday.  Tibbets' name may or may not ring a bell with some
of you, but it's likely most of you have heard of his airplane.
He flew a B-29 named "Enola Gay", which dropped the atomic
bomb on Hiroshima.  (Coincidently, last Friday was the 48th
anniversary of the date of the Hiroshima mission.)

He was in Lexington, Kentucky to address a banquet/meeting of
the local aviation history group.  I was asked (with less than
a month's notice) to build a model of the "Enola Gay" for
display and as my reward was permitted to hang around and talk to
him more than the average attendee.  (Also, my model made the
local TV nightly news; I managed to stay out of the picture.)

One of the questions I asked him before his talk was, "Will you
be discussing the second atomic bomb mission?"  He replied that
he didn't intend to mention it.

I persisted, asking him why not.  His reply was, "Those guys
f**ked up.  They didn't do what I told them to do.  If they had
done what I told them to do, everything would have gone all right."

Since I had just read several accounts of the two missions, I
was curious as to who he blamed for the mistakes, what he thought
they could have done differently, etc.  I asked him if would
elaborate and his reply was "No."  End of discussion.

(I read Tibbets autobiography, variously titled "The Tibbets Story"
and "Flight of the Enola Gay"; the book "Enola Gay", by Thomas
and Witts; "Hiroshima Diary", written by a doctor who survived
the bomb; "Superfortress", by Gen. Curtis LeMay; "The Night Tokyo
Burned", an account of the fire-bombing raids on Japan; and William
Craig's "The Fall of Japan".  In my opinion, the last one contains
the best account of the Nagasaki mission.  I recommend it to your
attention.)

We now return control of your screen....


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 20:37:00 EST
From:    Han Solo <081689614@UCIS.VILL.EDU>
Subject: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

        Can someone please tell me where the George S. Patton Jr Museum is?
I don't even know if it is in this country.  I was also wondering if someone
could tell me a little about the Aberdeen proving grounds and Ordinance
Museum.

                                                        Thank you


Donald J. Rumignani
081689614@ucis.vill.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 21:48:57 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: NAV: A question about frigates (modern)

> About the modern frigates:
>   After I posted the original message, I got to see a post card from the
>   Bath Iron Works. They are on the coast in Maine, sorry for the location
>   error. They are noted for having one of the largest cranes on the
>   east coast. As for the speed of the frigates and their stopping distances
>   I think everyone aggrees that there has been some exaggeration here, to
>   phrase it kindly. However the discussion on how to stop frigates fast
>   has been interesting. I think my question about this has been answered.
>   Its probably about time to discontinue the off-list subject matter.
>
>   To continue on topic:
>    I assume the Batch Iron Works has been in business for a while. Does
>    anyone know if they were around in WWII and if so, did they work on
>    any Navy ships then. I assume there is some way to trace who built
>    what. You always hear statistics about various fighting groups and
>    their records (ie. Divisions, bomber and fighter groups). Did anyone
>    keep records about production by manufacturer, I've seen this for
>    aircraft production. What about ship production?
>
> Glenn Millard
> Academic Support
> Stephen F. Austin State University
> Internet: a_millardgd@ccsvax.sfasu.edu

Bath Iron works was one of the leading builders of Destroyer type ships almost
since the type was created. Quickly using the tables in Destroyers A design
History by Friedman DD 20 USS Flusser laid down 3 Aug 1908 was 'Bath Built'
I also see in there that they built 'Torpedo Boats' before that.

Like any old line yard they had a reputation for quality.  I am pretty sure
they are now controlled by someone else but they try and keep the Bath
Ironworks name in the press ( I have seen ads in USNI Proceedings, but can't
lay my hands on one right now)

As far as records by builder, there are plenty. I know I settled several
dsicussions about Aircraft carriers when I was stationed at Langley AFB by
calling Newport News Shipbuilding and asking the PR department. They never took
more than 5 minutes to come back with any spec on any ship they built
(usually tonnage, launch or commisioning date, etc) PR departments are great
places. I got several poster size pictures of Nimitz, Eisenhower, and a couple
subs too.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 20:56:09 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: meeting Tibbets

WAIT a minute, Dennis!  Do YOU understand what Tibbets (may have) meant
  when he said the Nagasaki crew fouled up?  (This is the first I've heard
  about a foul-up.)

Thanks for any info.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 21:11:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Shipyard stats.

For a "do-it-yourself" overview of shipyard production, check out

REGISTER OF SHIPS OF THE U.S. NAVY, 1775-1990, Major Combatants,
by K. Jack Bauer and Stephen S. Roberts, Greenwood Press, 1991.

Every combatant as large as a sloop or gunboat (PG) is listed with
the shipyard where it was built. It has specs. (as built and major
modification) as well as disposition at end of service (speaking of
which, anyone know the names of the U.S. battleships sunk by the
Luftwaffe [yes, this is a trick question ;-]).

This book weighs in at a hefty $75.00, but everyone who's seen it
agrees it's a real marvel.  The unofficial estimate from the Naval
History Center is "very reliable".

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 21:15:33 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Luftwaffe victims

I could look them up, but they were the old U.S. predreadnoughts in the
  Greek Navy.  (Do I win?  WHAT do I win?)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Aug 1993 to 12 Aug 1993
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Status: O

There are 16 messages totalling 786 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Shipyard stats.
  2. USAAF 13 AUG 43
  3. meeting Tibbets
  4. USAAF 12 AUG 43 (2)
  5. MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum (6)
  6. GEN: B-17 and B-24 visit
  7. Nagasaki miscellanea
  8. Nagasaki miscellanea ... outstanding! (2)
  9. USAAF 14-15 AUG 43

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Aug 1993 22:36:35 MDT
From:    Steve Alvin <STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Shipyard stats.

On Thursday, 12 August, Larry & Kim challenged: (speaking of
> which, anyone know the names of the U.S. battleships sunk by the
> Luftwaffe [yes, this is a trick question ;-]).
>
I guess the answer depends on your definition of "battleship" :-)
The last two american pre-dreadnoughts (I think they were launched
after both the Dreadnought & Michigan) were sold to Greece and the
Luftwaffe "took care" of them in 1941.  I've just packed up my
reference books, and I can't remember their names (one, I think, was
the  Salamis).

Steve Alvin
Dickinson State University
STEPHEN_ALVIN@DSU1.DSU.NODAK.EDU
**********************************************************************
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.--Proverb*
*Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat my class.-SA*
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 07:10:24 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 13 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
FRIDAY, 13 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 7 B-25's from Adak Island bomb targets at Main
Camp and North Head on Kiska and Little Kiska Islands. A B-24 flies a
special reconnaissance mission. From Amchitka Island B-24's, B-25's,
A-24's, and P-38's fly 8 more bombing missions against Kiska Island pound-
ing the Camp area, gun emplacements, buildings, shipping, and airstrip
revetments.
    The 406th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 41st Bombardment Group (Medi-
um), ceases operating from Adak Island with B-25's and returns to it's base
at Elmendorf Field, Anchorage.
    During the latter part of Aug 43, the 515th and 516th Fighter-Bomber
Squadrons, 407th Fighter-Bomber Group, cease operating from Amchitka Island
with A-24's and return to their base at Drew Field, Tampa, Florida.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force)
    4 P-40's bomb and strafe enemy installations at Lungling, China.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    61 B-24's hit an aircraft factory at Wiener-Neustadt in the first Ninth
Air Force raid on Austria. 80+ B-25's hit Piedimonte, Italy, Falcone,
Sicily, and shipping at Messina, Sicily. 200+ P-40's attack shipping and
bridges along the SW Italian coast, hit shipping in the Straits of Messina,
and fly armored reconnaissance and fighter-bomber operations in NE Sicily.
    The 67th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 44th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
ceases operating from Benina, Libya with B-24's and returns to it's base at
Shipdham, England.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Italy, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb a
marshalling yard at Lorenzi, and B-25's and B-26's hit a marshalling yard
at Littoria; other B-25's hit a vessel off Pizzo. P-40's fly a sweep over S
Sardinia, strafing small boats, a power station, and railroad junction.
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) light and medium bombers bomb
Piedimonte, Italy, Falcone, Sicily, and bridges N of Scaletta, Sicily.
A-36's and fighters hit targets in NE Sicily, the Straits of Messina and on
the toe of Italy, including Gioia Tauro, Italy and in Sicily, the Barcel-
lona road junction E of Randazzo, the marshalling yard and trucks at Spada-
fora, trucks between Taormina and Baracca, and barges, ferries, and small
vessels in the Strait of Messina.
    On the ground in Sicily, the US Seventh Army enters Randazzo without
opposition. Coastal forces continue E toward Patti.
    The 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Malta to Torrente Comunelli, Sicily with A-20's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  On New Georgia Island in the Solomon Islands, 4 P-40's become the first
Allied aircraft to land on the reconstructed Munda Airfield; after refuel-
ing, they are sent on a sweep of the Kolombangara Island coast; 9 B-17's,
with fighter cover, bomb a Kape Harbor depot; and 2 others on armored
reconnaissance bomb Vila on Kolombangara Island. On Santa Isabel Island, 12
B-25's bomb supply areas in the Rekata Bay area; 2 B-24's on armored
reconnaissance hit Suavanau Point, 8 bomb the airfield on Ballale Island,
and 13 bomb Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  59 B-24's, B-17's, and B-26's drop 175 tons of bombs in the Salamaua, New
Guinea area in the heaviest single day strike by the Fifth Air Force to
date. 9 other B-24's bomb the oil center at Balikpapan, Borneo during a
late night raid; the round trip covers 1,200 miles (1,920 km).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 07:23:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: meeting Tibbets

?Error? struck me as well. But I got to thinking (smoke, steam, all that sort
of stuff) and I vaguely recall reading that the mission went off course from
their intended target of the industrial side of the area, and zeroed on the
residential.

What is the Real story?

... Alan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.   Nemo me impune lacessit.  Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI   Father of one.            FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881   U.S. Army Abn Inf 80-82   Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 07:50:03 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Re: USAAF 12 AUG 43

        >     1. 183 B-17's are dispatched to synthetic oil installations at Bochum,
        > Gelsenkirchen and Recklinghausen; some B-17's become separated on the bomb
        > run and bomb various targets of opportunity; 133 B-17's hit the targets at
        > 0845-0925 hours; they claim 25-5-11 Luftwaffe aircraft; 23 B-17's are lost,
        > 2 are damaged beyond repair and 103 are damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 49
        > WIA and 232 MIA.

                I thought the crew for a B-17 was 10 men.  If true, where did the
        2 extra MIAs come from.  I've noticed many of the reported MIAs don't
        total the crew compliments for the lost planes.  Are these MIAs from
        other damaged planes (such as ball-turret gunners) or did B-17s carry
        extra personnel at times?

                Anyway, 23 lost B-17s is a staggering amount of men and machines!
        --
        Joe Barone
        m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
        That's BigbooTAY!

The casualty figures I list were the actual numbers of PEOPLE and not
necessarily air crew.  There were always a few "extra crewmen" around;
photographers, brass getting their tickets punched, specialists trying
something, etc.

One little known fact is that 10% of the US Army KIAs in WWII were
assigned to the Eighth Air Force; that is a lot of people for such
a small outfit.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 09:42:44 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

In respnse to your question about the Ordnance Museum at
Aberdeen MD---

There is a very large outdoor display of armored vehicles from
various combatants, i.e. American, Japanese, German and Russian,
along with various other vehicles.  The display is quite
extensive.  In addition, the main road on the post leading to
the museum is a divided highway with the center median filled
with various American armored vehicles.

The museum building has an interesting display of small arms,
mainly machine guns from everywhere.

An interesting place!!!

Hope this is of use.

Jim Irwin
jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 09:16:33 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

'Saw things there I haven't even seen in books!  Watch out for the wasps,
  though.  They love to nest on/around the AFVs.  (When we were there, one
  of the Tiger tanks was missing.  I believe we were told it was back over
  in Germany getting reconditioned to running order.  Hmmm.  A lot of pieces
  in that kit!)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 09:23:53 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN: B-17 and B-24 visit

        I got busy and didn't post about this earlier.
        There is more than the Mt. Comfort Airshow to see in Indiana
this year. Currently, the Monroe County Airport in Bloomington has
four guests -- two of them of interest to this group.
        B-24 "All-American" and B-17 "Nine-O-Nine" are on display
until Saturday afternoon. There is a charge of $7 per adult and $3 per
child to tour the bombers. All proceeds go to keeping the two ladies
in the air.
        For the more modern minded, the two other visitors are F-16s
of the Indiana Air National Guard.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 10:19:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 12 AUG 43

>         >     1. 183 B-17's are dispatched to synthetic oil installations at Boc
> hum,
>         > Gelsenkirchen and Recklinghausen; some B-17's become separated on the
> bomb
>         > run and bomb various targets of opportunity; 133 B-17's hit the target
> s at
>         > 0845-0925 hours; they claim 25-5-11 Luftwaffe aircraft; 23 B-17's are
> lost,
>         > 2 are damaged beyond repair and 103 are damaged; casualties are 5 KIA,
>  49
>         > WIA and 232 MIA.
>
>                 I thought the crew for a B-17 was 10 men.  If true, where did th
> e
>         2 extra MIAs come from.  I've noticed many of the reported MIAs don't
>         total the crew compliments for the lost planes.  Are these MIAs from
>         other damaged planes (such as ball-turret gunners) or did B-17s carry
>         extra personnel at times?
>
>                 Anyway, 23 lost B-17s is a staggering amount of men and machines
> !
> The casualty figures I list were the actual numbers of PEOPLE and not
> necessarily air crew.  There were always a few "extra crewmen" around;
> photographers, brass getting their tickets punched, specialists trying
> something, etc.
>
> One little known fact is that 10% of the US Army KIAs in WWII were
> assigned to the Eighth Air Force; that is a lot of people for such
> a small outfit.

Also keep in mind that aircraft returning to base will also bring with
them KIA and WIA.  Some will even list MIA (shell rips through the nose
doing severe damage to aircraft -- bombardier found to be missing).

Aircraft returning home rarely came home without some sort of casualty.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:46:29 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Nagasaki miscellanea

WARNING:  This is a long one......

Various facts about the two atomic bomb missions, exerpted from
William Craig's "The Fall of Japan" (Dial Press, 1967):

Three B-29s from Tibbets' 509th Composite Group were dispatched
ahead of the "Enola Gay", to report the weather conditions at
each of the three potential targets of Hiroshima, Kokora, and
Nagasaki.  Leaving from Tinian beginning at 1:37 AM on 6 August,
the weather planes were "Straight Flush", "Full House" and
"Jabbit III".  Claude Eatherly, pilot of "Straight Flush",
flew to the primary target of Hiroshima.  His report back to
Tibbets, flying an hour behind, resulted in the decision to bomb
the primary.

"Enola Gay", piloted by Tibbets, departed Tinian at 2:45 AM, and
was accompanied to the target by the B-29s "The Great Artiste",
flown by Charles Sweeney, and a/c #91 (unnamed), flown by Geaorge
Marquadt.  Sweeney's aircraft had been outfitted as a data
collector, and dropped three parachute-equipped cannisters of
instruments into the blast, which radioed their data back to the
aircraft.  The bomb was released from 31,000 feet and exploded
43 seconds later at about 1800 feet.  "Enola Gay" and "Great Artiste"
had each executed a diving 155 degree turn (in opposite directions)
at the instant the bomb and data cannisters were released, and were
about twelve miles from the target when the bomb exploded.  A/C #91
was a photo plane and had orbited at a safer distance.  According
to an interview with Tibbets upon his return to Tinian, the entire
mission had taken place with a degree of perfection not approched
in the practices.

Which brings us to the second mission, three days later.  It had
already been decided at the highest levels that a second bomb would
be dropped within three days, in order to convince the Japanese
that the US had a ready supply of the bombs.  (It did not; there
would have been no more available until late September at the
earliest, after the scheduled invasion date.)  The decision *not*
to drop the second bomb was to have come from Truman himself, who
would have had to send an order cancelling or delaying the second
mission.

Tibbets selected Charles Sweeney to lead the second mission.  Since
his aircraft was outfitted as a data plane, he swapped aircraft
with Fred Bock.  Bock flew "The Great Artiste" and Sweeney flew
"Bock's Car", loaded with the plutonium bomb, nicknamed "Fat Man".

Moments before takeoff, it was discovered that the fuel pump in the
lower of the two large fuel tanks occupying the rear bomb bay was
inoperative.  600 gallons of fuel already loaded couldn't be
accessed.  Discussing the situation with Tibbets, Sweeney elected
to continue the mission.  (The two weather planes, bound for
Kokura and Nagaski, had already left.)  If the the need arose,
the aircraft could return to Iwo Jima, located 750 miles from Japan,
instead of trying for Tinian, 1500 miles away.

Making his takeoff roll, Sweeney used almost all of the runway,
as had "Enola Gay" three nights previously.  A bright spotlight
normally used to mark the end of the runway was unaccountably
turned off that night.  Shortly after, the two accompanying B-29s
took off.  An hour later, Dr. Robert Serber, last seen taxying
off in the photo plane, turned up at the headquarters building.
Because he had forgotten his parachute, the pilot, Maj. Hopkins,
booted him off the plane at the far end of the runway, where he
had to walk 1.5 miles in the darkness to report in.  He was the
only person who had been on board the plane who had been trained
to use the special high speed camera to be used to film the
explosion.  Breaking radio silence, experts on Tinian radioed
instructions to Hopkins for a half hour on the use of the camera.

Halfway to Japan, a warning light on the bomb's monitoring panel
glowed red, indicating that all of the firing circuits had
somehow closed, and the bomb was ready to detonate.  After a
tense half hour, Lt. Barnes was able to determine that the
problem was only a faulty switch in the monitoring panel, which
he repaired.

Arriving over the rendezvous point over the southern tip of the
island of Yakoshima, Sweeney received coded messages from the
two weather planes that both targets had 2/10 cloud cover.  This
was important, since they were under strict orders to bomb
visually, rather than by radar, which was less accurate.

Meeting up with the data plane, the two aircraft continued to
orbit, waiting for the arrival of the photo plane.  Unknown to
them, the photo plane was also orbiting, but at the wrong end
of the island, and at the wrong altitude.  After 43 minutes,
Sweeney elected to continue without Hopkins.  Fuel was already
running low.

Arriving at Kokura, they found that while parts of the city were
cloud free, the aiming point was obscured by haze and smoke from
a nearby fire.  After making three passes from different directions
at Kokura, Sweeney's bombardier still could not see well enough
to make a drop.  By now anti-aircraft guns were beginning to fire,
and fighter aircraft were rising to attack.  The decision was
made to continue to the secondary target of Nagasaki.

As the two bombers left Kokura, Sweeney lost sight of the data
plane.  He spoke into the intercom, asking "Where's Bock?"
Unfortunately, he had thrown the radio master switch also, and
so transmitted the question, breaking radio silence.  Hopkins,
in the photo plane, heard the transmission and also broke
radio silence, asking "Chuck, where the hell are you?"  When
he had failed to make the rendezvous, Hopkins had continued
on to Kokura, hoping to catch sight of the other two aircraft.
Sweeney chose not to break radio silence again, leaving Hopkins
wondering.

Because of the fuel shortage, Sweeney was forced to fly directly
toward Nagasaki, flying directly over the fighter airfields at
Kyushu.  He couldn't afford the fuel to divert around the area.
Returning even to Iwo Jima after dropping the bomb was no longer
possible.  There was possibly enough fuel for one pass at
Nagasaki with enough fuel left to get to the recently captured
Okinawa, 300 miles from Japan.  There wasn't enough fuel to fly
to Okinawa with the bomb; if unable to bomb Nagasaki, Sweeney
would have to drop the bomb in the ocean.

Conferring with Navy Commander Ashworth, the person in command
of the bomb itself, the two decided that if Nagasaki was also
cloud covered, they would drop the bomb by radar, in violation
of their orders.

On Tinian, officials were deeply worried.  There had been no word
from "Bock's Car", and it was well past the time they should
have dropped the bomb.  Returning from lunch, Gen. Tom Farrell
(Gen. Groves' representative on Tinian) was handed a copy of a
radioed message from the wandering photo plane, asking "Has #77
(Bock's Car) aborted?"  Farrell threw up on the floor.

The city of Nagasaki was distinctively X-shaped, due to the
surrounding hills.  The bomb was intended to be dropped just to
the southeast of the center of the X, in the heart of the
downtown area.  Only thirty seconds from the drop, the area
was still to cloud covered to allow a visual sighting of the
aiming point.  Five seconds later, the bombardier called out on
the intercom, "I'll take it."  He had seen a hole in the cloud
cover and was able to direct the aircraft to the aiming point
visually.

Fat Man detonated at 1540 feet over the northwest leg of the X
and 26,000 people died.

Down to 300 gallons of fuel, Sweeny headed to Okinawa.  While
an hour out, he radioed ahead to state his emergency.  There
was no response.  The rescue ships, submarines, and aircraft
assumed that the aircraft had already bombed Kokura, and had
returned to their bases.  Within sight of Okinawa, they still
were unable to contact the tower.  Sweeney ordered flares to
be shot off, but still they were not noticed.  Finally, they
fired off every flare onboard, 24 in all, which attracted
attention.  Making a straight in approach, Sweeney touched
down at 120 mph, scattering air traffic.  Bouncing once, the
two outer engines ran out of fuel and quit.  Sweeney reversed
the pitch on the two remaining engines and brought the
aircraft to a stop, narrowly missing a row of parked B-24s.

"Bock's Car" stayed on Okinawa less than two hours.  Within
a few minutes of landing, they were joined by Bock's crew
in "The Great Artiste".  An hour later, the missing camera
plane landed.  Making their way on to Nagasaki also, they
witnessed and filmed the explosion, albeit from a much greater
than planned distance.



"Bock's Car" is on display at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson
AFB in Ohio.  "Enola Gay" is slowly being restored at the
Smithsonian's Garber restoration facility at Suitland, Maryland.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:47:52 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Nagasaki miscellanea ... outstanding!

Dennis,

     THANK you for the riveting narrative of the Nagasaki bomb.  I trust
the people were/are rather religious, knowing how close Death passed them
by.  With hindsight (and the surrender), it is just as well that Sweeney
bombed off the mark.

     I can't believe Hopkins would have compromised a strategic mission by
bouncing somebody off his plane for an infraction of regulations, no matter
how basic.

     If you know off the top of your head, was he reprimanded in any way?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 12:56:27 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

>         Can someone please tell me where the George S. Patton Jr Museum is?

Fort Knox, KY.  It's co-located with the tank museum there.  Just takes up
a couple of rooms in the museum, as I recall.

The tank museum at Knox is a pale shadow of Aberdeen, BTW, except that
they've got a few oddballs, most notably the T28 tank (T95 GMC) which is
quite impressive.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 13:26:29 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

Kurt Luginbyhl   MNHAD007@SIVM__202-357-1955
ADP,National Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian Institution, Wash D.C._20560
Is Knox still a Tank school? And is it just for Officers?  Curious about the
Army... My dad was Air Force.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 13:33:30 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

Donald,


>        Can someone please tell me where the George S. Patton Jr Museum is?

It is located at Ft. Knox, Kentucky (near Elizabethtown, KY, soutwest of
Louisville)

>I don't even know if it is in this country.  I was also wondering if someone
>could tell me a little about the Aberdeen proving grounds and Ordinance
>Museum.

Co-located with Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland, south of Baltimore, along the
Chesapeake Bay
>
>                                                        Thank you
>
>
>Donald J. Rumignani
>081689614@ucis.vill.edu
>

Hope this helps,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 12:48:13 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Nagasaki miscellanea ... outstanding!

... the people of Kokora were/are rather religious, ...   that is

LRC

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 13:57:00 EST
From:    Han Solo <081689614@UCIS.VILL.EDU>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

        Thank you very much for your info on the Ordinance Museum at Aberdeen.
I have to get down there some time soon.  However, my other question has not
yet been answered.  Does anyone know about the Patton Museum???



Donald Rumignani
081689614@ucis.vill.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Aug 1993 15:31:26 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 14-15 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
SATURDAY, 14 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  Bf 109, Messerschmitt (Luftwaffe)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, 2 B-24's fly a special radar ferret and
reconnaissance mission; 1 B-25, 8 B-24's, and 10 P-38's then fly 2 attack
missions to Kiska Island, bombing with unobserved results.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    61 B-24's, on loan from the Eighth Air Force, bomb the Bf 109 factory
at Wiener-Neustadt, Austria. B-25's attack road junctions and vehicle
concentrations along the NE coast of Sicily and bomb a crossroads N of
Palmi, Italy. P-40's hit shipping in the Milazzo and Messina, Sicily areas
and along the Italian coast in the Palmi area.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) P-38's sweep the toe of
Italy but find little enemy movement. Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) fighters, and medium and light bombers hit a refueling depot at
Nicola and near Gesso, Sicily, a road junction N of Palmi, Italy, shipping
in the straits and along the W coast of Italy N to Gioia, and numerous
targets of opportunity in NE Sicily and S Italy as the enemy continues an
orderly evacuation from Sicily to mainland Italy across the Straits of
Messina.
    On the ground in Sicily, US troops speed E along the coast to the
Barcellona area and also continue pursuit of the enemy E of Randazzo.
    The 340th, 341st and 342d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 97th Bombard-
ment Group (Heavy), transfer from Pont-du-Fahs to Depienne, Tunisia with
B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, 9 B-17's bomb the Rekata Bay area of Santa Isabel
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, 50+ B-24's, B-17's, and B-25's pound the Salamaua area
battle zone; with close air and artillery support, US forces push to the
crest of Roosevelt Ridge; the enemy retains several ridges along Dot Inlet;
and A-20's strafe barges near Finschhafen. On New Britain Island in the
Bismarck Archipelago, B-25's hit barges at Talasea and Rein Bay, and other
B-25's bomb Koepang on Timor Island.
  HQ 475th Fighter Group and it's 431st, 432d and 433d Fighter Squadrons
transfer from Amberley Field near Brisbane, Queensland, Australia to
Dobodura, New Guinea with P-38's. The 431st and 432d are operating from
Port Moresby, the 431st until Oct 43 and the 432d until Sep 43; the 433d
will fly it's first mission tomorrow.

SUNDAY, 15 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force)
    In the Aleutian Islands, US and Canadian troops invade Kiska Island and
discover that the Japanese, under the cover of fog, evacuated their garri-
son. A P-38 bombs and strafes Sniper Hill.
    The 635th Bombardment Squadron (Dive), 407th Fighter-Bomber Group,
based at Drew Field, Tampa, Florida but operating from Amchitka Island, is
disbanded and it's A-24's are transferred to other units.

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command)
    The 17th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, based
at Miami, Florida with B-25's, ceases flying ASW missions. The squadron
will transfer to New Mexico and be redesignated 855th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy) and transition to B-24's and then join the Eighth Air Force in
England in Jan 44.
    The air echelon of the 23d Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Anti-
submarine Wing, based at Edinburgh Field, Trinidad begins operating from
Zandery Field, Surinam. The squadron will operate from this station with
B-25's until Dec 43.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force)
    VIII Bomber Command Mission 82: Luftwaffe airfields in France and the
Netherlands are targetted today.
      1. 180 B-17's are dispatched to Vlissingen Airfield in the Nether-
lands and Amiens and Poix Airfield in France; 147 aircraft hit the targets
at 1926-1931 hours; 48 B-17's are damaged; casualties are 3 WIA.
      2. 147 B-17's are dispatched to Merville, Lille/Vendeville and Vitry
en Artois Airfields in France; 143 hit the targets at 1925-1933 hours; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are lost and 11 damaged; casualties
are 1 KIA, 3 WIA and 20 MIA.
    VIII Air Support Command Missions 19A, 19B and 20: Three Luftwaffe
airfields are targetted:
      1. 36 B-26's are dispatched against St Omer/Ft Rouge Airfield in
France; 31 hit the target at 0959 hours; 18 B-26's are damaged.
      2. 36 B-26's are dispatched against Woensdrecht Airfield, The Nether-
lands; they turn back at the Dutch coast aborted the mission.
      3. 21 B-26's are dispatched against the marshalling yard at Abbe-
ville, France; 19 hit the target at 1933 hours; 9 aircraft are damaged;
casualties are 1 WIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force)
    In Sicily, B-25's hit shipping along the beaches of Sant' Agata di
Militello; 180+ P-40's attack shipping at Messina and in the Straits of
Messina. Enemy forces withdrawing to mainland Italy are pounded severely by
constant air attacks.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force)
    In Italy, Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-25's and
B-26's bomb Sibari railroad junction and marshalling yard, and P-38's hit
trains, troops, radar, and Staletti railroad tracks and tunnel. P-40's
attack a bivouac area near Monserrato, Sardinia.
    On the ground in Sicily, US Seventh Army troops land on the Sicilian N
coast NW of Barcellona during the night of 15/16 Aug to block the enemy
withdrawal. The US 3d Infantry Division heads along the N coast to Spada-
fora. British Eighth Army troops complete a drive around Mount Etna as the
Randazzo-Linguaglossa road is closed. Linguaglossa and Taormina are taken.
    HQ 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Pont-du-Fahs to
Depienne, Tunisia.
    The 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers from Warnier,
Algeria to Sidi Ahmed, Tunisia with P-39's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force)
  In the Solomon Islands, Commander Air (COMAIR), New Georgia command post,
recently opened at Munda Point, New Georgia Island by Major General Francis
P Mulcahy, USMC, conducts its first full day of operations. Fighters are
sent to cover amphibious landings at Vella Lavella Island where elements of
the 25th Infantry Division, and supporting units, go ashore in the Barakoma
area and establish a beachhead. Allied airplanes knock down about 25
Japanese aircraft (7 by Army Air Forces fighters) attacking the landings.
F4U's also claim 10 Japanese shot down over Kahili, Bougainville Island.
B-25's bomb Papatura Fa and Ighiti Islands in the Rekata Bay area of Santa
Isabel Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force)
  In New Guinea, heavy bombers again hit the Salamaua area; 12 Japanese
bombers, escorted by 20+ fighters, attack Tsili Tsili Airfield for the
first time; intercepting P-39's claim 14 airplanes downed for the loss of 3
P-39's.
  HQ 35th Fighter Group transfers from Port Moresby to Tsili Tsili, New
Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Aug 1993 to 13 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 6 messages totalling 254 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 16 AUG 43
  2. MISC: Aberdeen Museum
  3. Aberdeen Proving Grounds/Edgewood Arsenal Clarification
  4. Addr: Nagasaki miscellanea
  5. PLEASE COPY THIS DISK
  6. INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 07:19:30 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 16 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
MONDAY, 16 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-40, Boeing Flying Fortress
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, a B-24 reconnais-
sance flight reconnoiters North Head, Main Camp, and northern Kiska Island,
and observes friendly forces' unopposed advance into Main Camp.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Bombers hit and claim 2 small vessels sunk
about 130 miles (208 km) S of Rangoon, Burma.
  The 89th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, transfers from Karachi to
Gushkara, India with P-40's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on 8
Sep 43.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 P-40's bomb town of Tengchung, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 83:
Luftwaffe facilities in France are targetted today.
  1. 179 B-17's and 1 YB-40 are dispatched to Le Bourget air depot in the
Paris area; 171 hit the target at 0929-0937 hours; they claim 29-3-11
Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost and 46 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA,
4 WIA and 31 MIA; this mission is escorted all the way to the target by
P-47's using drop tanks.
   2. 66 B-17's are dispatched to Poix and Abbeville Airfields; all 66 hit
the targets at 0911-0923 hours; 38 aircraft are damaged; no casualties.
   VIII Air Support Command Missions 21, 22A and 22B: Airfields in France
are targetted today; no casualties.
   1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Bernay St Martin Airfield; 31 hit the
target at 1117 hours; 2 aircraft are damaged.
   2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Beaumont Le Roger Airfield; 29 hit the
target at 1700 hours and 3 hit Conches Airfield at 1703 hours; 3 aircraft
are damaged.
   3. A diversion is flown by B-26's of the 323d Bombardment Group (Medium).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): 86 B-24's bomb the city area and
airfields at Foggia, Italy. In Sicily, 50+ B-25's hit landing craft concen-
trations near Ganzirri and Messina, and 100+ P-40's hit shipping at Messina
and in the Straits of Messina, as the enemy continues the withdrawal of
rear guard troop to mainland Italy. Before midnight, US patrols enter
Messina, which is under fire from the Italian coast.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) medium bombers hit Staletti and a tempo-
rary bridge at Angitola. In Sicily, Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) light and medium bombers hit shipping in the Straits of Messina and
from N of Messina to Capo Pelaro. A-36's and P-40's concentrate on communi-
cations targets on the toe of Italy, hitting trains, trucks, railroad
yards, and sidings at Nicastro, Lamezia, Amantea, and Sambiase. Also bombed
are barges, ferries, and small vessels off Messina, Sicily and in the Golfo
di Sant' Eufemia, Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 9 B-24's bomb Papatura Fa Island. 12 B-25's, 5 B-17's, and 30+ US
Navy planes attack Vila Airfield on Kolombangara Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): Oil tanks at
Balikpapan, Borneo are hit by 2 B-24's. In New Guinea, 5 B-25's bomb Larat;
15 P-38's and 32 P-47's intercept 25 fighters preparing to attack transport
vessels near Tsili Tsili; the strike is completely thwarted and 12 fighters
shot down. This marks first the combat use of the P-47 in this theater.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:06:10 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MISC: Aberdeen Museum

        For those going to Aberdeen, be on the lookout for the T-34
with the bogus towing eyelets.  Apparently, the craftsmen from Tamiya
Model Company went to Aberdeen in order to study the vehicles to produce
their various armor models and one of these was the T-34.  The particular
T-34 they studied had had two additional towing eyelets welded on by the
Americans who had brought it over after the war.  These two eyelets are
positioned at the very front of the chasis of the vehicle.  Anyway, Tamiya
faithfully reproduced these eyelets on all of the 1/35 scale kits (even
though their box art does not show them!).  Other model companies followed
suit and now many scale models of the T-34 have these American additions.
To the modelers on the list:  Remove these eyelets from their models!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Moriarty: Buying this Tiger is going too far!
Odd Ball: It's a beautiful machine!
Moriarty: It's a piece of junk! The fuel system leaks all over!
Odd Ball: Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:13:16 -0400
From:    Eliot Friedman <ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Aberdeen Proving Grounds/Edgewood Arsenal Clarification

Correcting someone's geography in a previous post, the Aberdeen Proving
Grounds (and Edgewood Arsenal) are about 20 miles NORTH (actually,
northeast), NOT SOUTH, of Baltimore, MD.

Just as most native New Yorkers (myself included) have never visited the
Statue of Liberty, I have not yet visited the Ordnance Museum (closed
Mondays).  There's always next weekend.

-Eliot
ekfriedm@thama1.apgea.army.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 10:41:04 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: Nagasaki miscellanea

My librarian coworker tells me the Nagasaki bomb happened to
accidentally be dropped on the Catholic section of the city,
thereby almost wiping out the entire Catholic population of
Japan in one shot.
**************************************************************
Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 19:41:13 -0400
From:    "B.R. Samizdat Express" <samizdat@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: PLEASE COPY THIS DISK

PLEASE COPY THIS DISK -- UPDATE 8/16/93

from:
The B&R Samizdat Express
PO Box 161
West Roxbury, MA 02132
samizdat@world.std.com

(Reminder -- We're the folks who are making public-
domain Internet information available on disk,
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If you would like to receive a list of our current
offerings, please send us email requesting it.
If you didn't see our initial message, where we
explain what we're doing and why, and who we are,
just let us know and we'll send you a copy of that
as well.)
****************************************************

Following up on your suggestions and requests, we
are making available on disk over 300 ERIC Digests
(from the Educational Resources Information Center).
For your convenience, these are grouped by subject/interest
area on 11 disks, which range from about 250 to 750 Kbytes.

1) Minority Education (U.S.)
2) Math, Science, & the Environment
3) Computers in Education
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Those disks are ready now, on the same terms as our
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Unfortunately we are still not ready to release our Internet
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Meanwhile, we'd appreciate your help in finding sources of information
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REMINDER:  The information resources available on the Internet and
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efforts to provide maximum benefit. For now, we're basing
our decisions on the assumption that some of you would
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their own copies), that others would like to assemble your
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Please send your suggestions as well as your requests to be
added to our distribution list to:  samizdat@world.std.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 22:13:25 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru?

Any give me a ref for the sinking of the Awa Maru by Queenfish?  I have
WORLD WAR II; America at War, 1941-1945, which gives two different dates
for the same incident.

TIA,
Larry J

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Aug 1993 to 16 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 13 Aug 1993 to 14 Aug 1993
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There are 2 messages totalling 71 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Aug 1993 20:22:02 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

>Kurt Luginbyhl   MNHAD007@SIVM__202-357-1955
>ADP,National Museum of Natural History
>Smithsonian Institution, Wash D.C._20560
>Is Knox still a Tank school?

Yes,  basic and advanced training for both Armor officers and enlisted
soldiers still occurs at Ft. Knox.

>And is it just for Officers?

No.  See above.

>Curious about the Army... My dad was Air Force.
>
Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Aug 1993 20:35:15 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: MISC:Patton Museum, Aberdeen Museum

> Donald,
>
>
> >        Can someone please tell me where the George S. Patton Jr Museum is?
>
> It is located at Ft. Knox, Kentucky (near Elizabethtown, KY, soutwest of
> Louisville)
>
> >I don't even know if it is in this country.  I was also wondering if someone
> >could tell me a little about the Aberdeen proving grounds and Ordinance
> >Museum.
>
> Co-located with Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland, south of Baltimore, along the
> Chesapeake Bay
>
> Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
                      (only after they orient their maps :-))
> MAJ, IN
> Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

Bear you just got an F- in map reading. Aberdeen is  about 20 miles North of
Baltimore just off of I-95. It is open every day but monday. and has a
FANTASTIC collection of armor, all sitting outdoors with very little
protection. Some of the WW@ German stuff is literally cut open ( It looks
just like the cut-away drawings in the books:-)).  The inside collection of
small arms, munitions, testing parephanalia is very good also. On one of the
main roads on post they have the 'mile of tanks' which is a history of US
armor in order.  If you enter from I-95 ( the main Interstate Highway up the
east coast) it is well marked. The local town is also Aberdeen ( Home of
Cal Ripken of baseball fame also).

About 20 years ago I got to go on bus tour of the testing area on Armed Forces
day. I'm going to have to ask an e-mail contact I have who works at the Proving
Ground if they still do that. It was very interesting they had a Tank on the
Hill, the Mud Bog and I think the washboard road. Also got to see the ballistic
test ranges and other things I only vaguely remember.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Aug 1993 to 14 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There are 11 messages totalling 476 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW II Mysteries (3)
  2. USAAF 17 AUG 43
  3. WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps (3)
  4. weap: transports
  5. Help requested
  6. INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 10:25:53 +0200
From:    Allan Myrvang <Amyrvang@OSCAR.BBB.NO>
Subject: WW II Mysteries

Hei anybody who would like to give a helping hand!

I feel that World War II is still a mystery, so I need help.

1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
   border in June 1941?

3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
   Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
   in Germany???

5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
   border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
   Finland!)

6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?

I think these questions are enough for this time. Looking forward to
interseting answers and I thank you in advance!

Allan

#################################################
#                #
#  Allan Myrvang                  #
#  Sildegrend                  #
#  N - 5590 ETNE                  #
#  Norway                   #
#  Phone number 04 75 65 33               #
#  Internet <AMyrvang@Oscar@No  192.124.156.38>#
#################################################


PS I tried yesterday to send this letter to the list, but due to
   system problems it must have been illegible. Excuse me so much!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 07:20:13 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 17 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
TUESDAY, 17 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 1 B-24 flies over
Kiska Island watching friendly forces land on the shore of E Kiska Lake.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 23 B-24's, operating in 3 waves, bomb
barracks at Cau Lo, French Indochina. 4 P-40's bomb town of Mangshih,
China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 84:
On the first anniversary of US heavy bomber operations from the UK, a
two-pronged attack into Germany is launched, marking the deepest penetra-
tion of German territory to date. The critical targets are the Messer-
schmitt complex at Regensburg, and the anti-friction-bearing factories at
Schweinfurt.
  1. 230 B-17's are dispatched to Schweinfurt; 188 hit the target at 1459-
1511 hours; they claim 148-18-63 Luftwaffe aircraft; 36 B-17's are lost, 3
are damaged beyond repair and 118 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 12 WIA and
352 MIA; there are 80 high explosive hits on the 2 main bearing plants.
  2. 146 B-17's are dispatched to Regensburg; 127 hit the target at 1148-
1207 hours; they claim 140-19-36 Luftwaffe aircraft; 24 B-17's are lost, 1
is damaged beyond repair and 50 are damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 9 WIA
and 200 MIA; every important building in the complex is damaged; the
surviving aircraft continue on to bases in North Africa.
  60 B-17's are lost in the fierce air battle that extends to the targets
and continues after the bombing.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 23 and 24: Two airfields in France are
targetted.
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Bryas Sud Airfield; 29 hit the target at
1051 hours; 2 aircraft are damaged.
  2. 72 B-26's are dispatched to Poix/Nord Airfield; 35 hit the target at
1552 hours; 20 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 1 WIA.
  During the night of 17/18 Aug the Royal Air Force (RAF) begins Operation
CROSSBOW, massive attacks on German V-weapon sites. About 570 aircraft drop
2,000 tons of bombs on Peenemunde, Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): 200+ P-40's hit shipping at
Messina, Sicily, at Palmi and in the Gulf of Gioia, Italy.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): The Sicilian
campaign ends with the official entry of the US Seventh Army's 3d Infantry
Division into Messina at 1000 hours. The British force from Ali arrives
shortly thereafter. The fall of Sicily paves the way for the stepped-up air
offensive against Italy.
  In France, about 180 Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's
attack Istres-Le-Tube Airfield and Salon-de-Provence Airfield. Around 100
medium bombers attack communications targets on the N part of the Italian
toe, hitting Battipaglia and Castrovillari with damaging effect; escorting
P-38's strafe vehicles in the area. Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) fighters and light bombers pound shipping in the Straits of Messina
and Gulf of Gioia, Italy, hit the rail center at Lamezia, Italy, and har-
rass enemy movement on the Italian toe.
  The 416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force, transfers from Al-
giers to Bone, Algeria with Beaufighters. The squadron will fly it's first
combat mission on 4 Sep.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
50+ B-24's and B-17's make a predawn attack on Wewak and satellite air-
fields at Boram, Dogaw, and But, and also hit Tadji and Madang; during the
midmorning, 30+ B-25's, with 80+ P-38's covering, carry out the day's
second bombing and strafing strike on Boram, Wewak, and Dogaw; this begins
a campaign to neutralize Japanese airfields in preparation for offensive
against Lae; A-20's again hit enemy forces in the Salamaua area. B-24's
bomb oil facilities at Balikpapan, Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 14:05:31 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NATS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

> Hei anybody who would like to give a helping hand!

Well, why not?

> 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

When Germany invaded the country in 1941. Then little choice was left.
If you want to be rigorous, the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 to
collect their share of the country can also be considered a starting point,
but after the defaeat of Poland the USSR was not at war until 1941.

> 2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
>    border in June 1941?

No idea.

> 3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

Several reasons. (i) Stalin simply refused to believe that Germany would attack,
despite warnings from many people, including his own spies, the British, and
even some Germans. Commanders who wanted to prepare their units for battle were
forbidden to do this. (ii) The Red Army was reorganizing and reequipping on a
lareg scale. The plans for this were far too grandiose, resulting in chaos at
the time of the attack. Old units were disbanded and the new were not yet
created. (iii) Too many experienced officers had been eliminated by Stalins
purges, incapacitating the command.

> 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
>    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
>    in Germany???

Lots of tanks. The USSR had more than 10000 tanks, at least four times as much
as the German army. Many of them were obsolete, but the newer ones, especially
the T-34, were superior to the German tanks. However, the Red Army had no tank
divisions; tanks were scattered over all units. There was no theoretical basis
for a fast 'blitzkrieg' war; the Soviet generals had to learn this from their
German counterparts. What they did admirably fast.

> 5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
>    border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
>    Finland!)

Surprise and good organization. The USSR attack on Finland was problematic
because a badly organized army attacked a prepared enemy on very difficult
terrain. The German army was a very experienced force, the Red Army was
ill-prepared, and the terrain was mostly acceptable for tank warfare.

> 6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?

Simply put: Hitler refused to do so. The war had to be won before the winter, so
only a small occupying force would need winter equipment. The possibility of a
winter war was out of consideration. Also, it was argued that large-scale
preparations for winter warfare would alarm the USSR; but it could hardly have
been more alarming than the large troop movements to the east.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 09:30:47 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

A friend is considering buying a jeep at a local government auction:

>       "Nine M183A1 Willys Jeeps, 1952's, 53's and 54's, most complete,
>       several in running condition, all former U.S. Army units.

These have been owned by the Forestry department, so their condition is
anyone's guess; probably not good.

He's wondering what to expect to pay for them.  I've pointed him at a
couple of periodicals (e.g., AFV Collectors' News), but since he's not
likely to find a copy by Saturday, I thought I'd see if anyone here might
have an estimate.

Blitzkreig! (tanks in advance)

-  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 15:59:06 BRA
From:    "Silvio E. G. Melo" <COV90105@UFRJ.BITNET>
Subject: weap: transports

     Please, I need bibliography about transports (trucks, unarmoured cars etc)
of WWII (all countries). Any recommendations is welcome.
     tank's in advance.
                                Silvio E. G. Melo

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 12:25:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Help requested

From:   IN%"ILL-L%UVMVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.EDU"  "ILL-L: Interlibrary Loan discus
   sion group", IN%"zzcroc@ACC.WUACC.EDU"  "crocker carol" 17-AUG-1993 12:23:29.
   76
To:     IN%"ILL-L%UVMVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.EDU"  "Multiple recipients of list ILL
   -L"
CC:
Subj:   help/Dr. Frank

One of our professors would like a copy of a speech given by Dr. Frank,
"The Jews in Jurisprudents" page 71-, form DOCUMENTS OF GERMAN POLITICS,
Volume II.  He tells me that the cite was found on page 284 of TRIALS OF THE
MAJOR WAR CRIMINALS, volume 24.  Our volume 24 is missing, making cite check
impossible.

We tried OCLC and Lexis (found DOKUMENTE DER DEUTSCHEN POLITIK, but would
like an English version).  Am hoping some kind soul can help.

Thanks in advance!

Carol Crocker
Washburn School of Law Library
Topeka, Ks                          zzcroc@acc.wuacc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 13:56:32 -0400
From:    Bill Larson <larson@PEVSA.PEC.NCSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45)

Larry,
        Clay Blair reports the date as 1 APR 1945 on pages 810-814 of Silent
Victory.
        Bill    Bill_Larson@ncsu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 14:16:20 EDT
From:    Charles <mcgrew@CS.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

        Allan Myrvang <Amyrvang@oscar.bbb.no> writes:
        1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

July 22, 1941, when German troops crashed across the border.

        2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the
        Sovjet-German  border in June 1941?

... Stalin didn't quite trust Hitler (as it turned out, with good
reason.)  Besides, the Soviets were determined to keep a large
standing army, and they had to be put *somewhere* :-)

        3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

... their leadership at most levels was defective.  At the highest
levels, Soviet leadership misjudged how good the Germans were
(ordering ill-advised counterattacks and hold-your-grounds for far too
long); at the lower levels, the Soviet pool of commanders was
generally second-rate, since Stalin had so recently had the leading
lights murdered (having convinced himself that good commanders were
part of a plot to remove himself), leaving for the most part pleasant
nonentities to command the troops.

Also, military units were "dual-commanded" by its Red Army commander,
and its NKVD Commisar, so no commander would be in the least way
imaginative, since so doing would ensure a quick, one-way ride to
Lefortova (sp?) prison. Soviet units fought hard, but were rapidly
overcome.

        4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
           Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was
           better in Germany???

   Some very good (KV-1's were virtually unstoppable, but few in
number; the T-34 was of course also very good); many not so good older
tanks.  They had many more tanks, but they were parceled out to
independant brigades, and unimaginatively handled.  German tanks,
though often inferior had radios, most Soviet's did not; German tanks
had better optics, air support, and generally better trained troops.
As for mechanical reliability, I don't have enough information from my
reading to tell.

        5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the
           sovjetrussian border? (It had not been an easy task for the
           Red Army to invade Finland!)

... well, it wasn't exactly easy, but it was very rapid.  The terrain
in the two wars you mention was very, very different.  (In Finland,
the south was very heavily fortified, the north a virtually trackless
forest; in Poland the terrain was much more suited for mobile
operations and not as heavily fortified.)  Also, the Germans had honed
their skills for 2 years in mobile operations, so by then they were
pretty good at it.

        6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian
           winter?

... stupidity, mostly.  A decision was made to use the sparse
(captured) Russian rail net to move things other than winter clothes,
in anticipation that the war would be over by the time winter set in.
The Russian rail system was a different guage than the German, so
especially in 1941 getting supplies up where the fighting was was
difficult.  Making up for that bad decision took time, since there
were an immense number of troops to be re-equipped, who were also
fighting at the time.

Charles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 17:32:30 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45)

>
> Larry,
>         Clay Blair reports the date as 1 APR 1945 on pages 810-814 of Silent
> Victory.
>         Bill    Bill_Larson@ncsu.edu
>
Thanks for the response.  This was clearly a major FUBAR on the Queenfish's
part. How does Silent Victory tell the tale (if you have the time to report
it, of course, I can hear the eager young faces tramping toward campus even
now ;-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 20:45:45 CDT
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

Public Auction bids are a real crap shot as to what to bid--it just
depends upon who is bidding on them, and for what purpose they intend to
use them for (resale, restoration).  I would suggest scope out the compe
tition as much as possible, and their motives.  They could go for $50,
or $50,000 depending upon what their condition is.

I would assume if they have been used by the forestry department, they
probably have been used regularly, and have had scheduled maintenance
performed on them--so they might not be too bad--unless they have sat
rusting for 20 years.

So what are they worth???  I recently saw a WWII jeep, with trailer and
lots of nice do-dads listed for $12,000.  Minus the do-dads it is probab
worth around $9,000.  It depends upon if it is a runner, or a tower.  It
depends upon the shape of the mechanical componets.  Worry more about th
e engine, brakes, and powertrain than the body, seats and other cosmetic
items---cosmetic itemson a military vehicle (now there is a contradictio
n in terms!!) are easy to fix and cheap to fix--mechanical problems tend
to be frustrating and can be expensive.  Take a look and see exactly how
much they have been altered for the forestry department.  A less altered
vehicle is worth more to a military collector who might be bidding, and
a civilianized jeep is worth more to a 4-wheeler.  It all just depends.


I hope this helps, even though I didn't give you a straight answer.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:42:58 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

> A friend is considering buying a jeep at a local government auction:
>
> >       "Nine M183A1 Willys Jeeps, 1952's, 53's and 54's, most complete,
> >       several in running condition, all former U.S. Army units.
>
> These have been owned by the Forestry department, so their condition is
> anyone's guess; probably not good.
>
> He's wondering what to expect to pay for them.  I've pointed him at a
> couple of periodicals (e.g., AFV Collectors' News), but since he's not
> likely to find a copy by Saturday, I thought I'd see if anyone here might
> have an estimate.

Although everything varies kinda heavily, our collection of vehicles
includes a 1941 Willy's jeep.  (Jeep is actually an incorrect term, but
it's understood :-).

This is a unique vehicle in that not only is it fully restored and
operating, but that it was one of the first 600 ever built of its
type.  (I don't know if it's the same or similar to these.  I'm certain
I can find out.)

However, our jeep, sans trailer, has an estimated value of $10,000 to
$15,000.

I don't know if that helps set the value for a later probably worn-out
Willy's or not, but you'd know what NOT to spend for it. :-)

> Blitzkreig! (tanks in advance)

Groan.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Aug 1993 to 17 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 8 messages totalling 546 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW II Mysteries (3)
  2. USAAF 18 AUG 43
  3. WW II Mysteries (fwd)
  4. WW II Mysteries (Finland, again)
  5. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory
  6. REF: Barbarossa and later.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 09:42:07 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <flb@FLB.OPTIPLAN.FI>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

> Date:         Tue, 17 Aug 1993 14:05:31 +0200
> From: Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NATS.UIA.AC.BE>
> Subject:      Re: WW II Mysteries

Not to critique Emmanuel's remarks, just expand
on them, and provide info about the Winter War ..

> > 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?
>
> [..] but after the defeat of Poland the USSR was not at war until 1941.

[Tell that to the Finns !]

> > 2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
> >    border in June 1941?

There is a revisionist theory developing that Stalin
planned a sneak attack of his own later in 1941.
Apparently the historical evidence for this is
interesting but not persuasive.

> > 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
> >    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
> >    in Germany???
>
> [..] the Red Army had no tank
> divisions; tanks were scattered over all units. There was no theoretical basis
> for a fast 'blitzkrieg' war; the Soviet generals had to learn this from their
> German counterparts. What they did admirably fast.

I recall reading that some Soviet military thinkers had
actually developed some theories of lightning armored
warfare, and had tried them in exercises, but that it
had fallen on deaf ears, and perhaps been lost completely
in the purges.  Can anyone else recall reading this ?

> > 5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
> >    border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
> >    Finland!)
>
> [..] The USSR attack on Finland was problematic
> because a badly organized army attacked a prepared enemy on very difficult
> terrain.

The terrain is not *that* difficult.  Forests and
thousands of shallow glacial lakes.  The *climate*
however is deadly if you're not prepared for it.

But some of the problems for the Soviets:

1) overconfidence: captured documents showed that the units
   operating in middle Finland planned to cut the country
   in two in a week or two

2) units not prepared for the climate, e.g. units from the Ukraine

3) the Finnish civil guard units knew their home terrain

4) Soviet units were largely road-bound, while Finnish units
   had superior tactical mobility (bicycles and skis).

Superior tactical mobility enabled a Finnish tactic that
worked like so: to allow a Soviet formation to string out
along a forest highway, and then separate it into pieces,
not incidentally isolating the food and logistical elements
from the rest of the group.  Then, a change to a defensive
stance allowed the climate to do much of the work in exhausting
the Soviet formations.

Anyone interested might read "The Unknown Soldier"
by Vaino Linna.  Reads something like the book on
Viet Nam, "Dispatches" by Michael Herr.

/fred

--
* Fred Baube (tm) GU/MSFS/88 baube@optiplan.fi
* #include <disclaimer.h>
* Glasnost for the FBI
* Free Leonard Peltier

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 07:10:10 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 18 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
WEDNESDAY, 18 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-40, Curtiss

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command
Missions 25A and 25B: Two Luftwaffe airfields are targetted:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Lille/Vendeville Airfield in France;
because of mechanical trouble with communications equipment and the
bombsight in the lead plane, 22 aircraft bomb the Ypres/Vlamertinge Air-
field in Belgium at 1016 hours; 23 aircraft are damaged; there are no
casualties.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Woensdrecht Airfield in the Netherlands;
32 hit the target at 1032 hours; 8 aircraft are damaged; there are no
casualties.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): In Italy, P-40's attack motor
transport between Scilla and Bagnara, and bomb shipping off Scilla.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) fighters and medium bombers hit
barracks and railroad at Gonnesa, sink a small vessel in the Golfo di
Sant' Eufemia and bomb and strafe a railway station, bridge, and tracks
at Soverato, bridges and a road junction at Angitola, and highway and road
junction at Staletti. Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) air-
planes hit gun positions and road and rail transport in S Italy.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
70+ B-24's, B-25's, and B-17's, with cover of almost 100 fighters, blast
airfields at Wewak, Boram, Dagua, and But. The midmorning attacks cause
heavy destruction of Japanese airplanes on the ground, and US fighters
and bombers claim 30+ enemy aircraft shot down.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 09:29:18 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

>1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

Ignoring the invasion of the Baltic states (as everyone except the
Latvians, Lithuanians, and Estonians seems to do)...

Mid-September 1939, when the USSR invaded Poland from the west while Germany
was finishing off most of te Polish army in the east. Germany and the USSR
had a non-aggression pact with a secret protocol calling for the spliting
of Poland between them (oh, and the Baltic states too).

The USSR again attacked at the end of 1939, this time Finland was the
target. Although the USSR initially met with failure and suffered heavy
casualties, in the end victory was attained. The western allies (France,
Britain, and Polish survivors) were to have intervened in spring 1940, but
by then it was hopeless for Finland, and the troops were diverted to
invade/assist Norway.

Yes, it was nearly a three way way: Germany vs USSR and west; USSR vs
Germany and west; west and USSR vs Germany. If Germany had not been so
sucessful in France, it is interesting to guess what Italy might have done
(Italy considered war with Germany over Austria just a couple years before!).
So it is easy to see why there were so many US isolationist until 1941:
European politics was crazy!

It wasn't until Germany invaded the USSR in June 1941 that the USSR became
a reluctant (not so friendly) ally to the western Allies.

>2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
>   border in June 1941?

This is a bit controversal. Some say it was because Stalin was planning an
invasion of his own (probably true IMO, but not in 1941....maybe 1942).
Others say it was due to Red Army doctrine of defense by offense....when
attacked, counterattack. Others say it was to guard against the Germans.

>3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

1) poor training 2) inexperience 3) the purges (most officiers had been
executed in 1930s) 4) army undergoing re-organization 5) the Germans
were very skilled at war 6) defenses not fully prepared 7) deployment
not very good for defense (more like offense)

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:28:37 -0300
From:    Neal Parsons u <pars8331@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries (fwd)

        I first sent this directly to Allan, now I send to all.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 09:18:25 -0300 (EDT)
From: Neal Parsons u <pars8331@mach1.wlu.ca>
To: Allan Myrvang <Amyrvang@OSCAR.BBB.NO>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries



On Tue, 17 Aug 1993, Allan Myrvang wrote:

> Hei anybody who would like to give a helping hand!
>
> I feel that World War II is still a mystery, so I need help.
>
> 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?
        This is a point of contention.  For me the answer is that the
Soviets entered the war in September 1939 when they took part in the
invasion of Poland. >
> 2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
>    border in June 1941?
        There is a lot of thought (reasonable) that the Soviets were in the
process of preparing for an invasion of Germany at some distant time (not
too distant)>
 > 3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?
        As incredible as it may seem, the aforementioned offense preparations
seemed to have taken up a large portion of Soviet thinking.  It also
helped that Stalin had recently put most of his top officers in gulags.>
 > 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
>    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
>    in Germany???
        I'll assume you mean around the time of Barbarossa and perhaps over
the next year.  The main German tank was the Panzer IV F2 which came onto
the Eastern front in 1942 (24tons, 25mph, 50mm max armour, armed with long
75 mm gun and 2 mg.), also there was the Panzer IVG which was slightly
upgraded IVF2.  These fine battle tanks were in for quite a shock when the
began to meet the famous T-34 and less known KV1 and KV2.  The T-34 is
considered the finest tank of the war (by some) :26.3 tons, 32mph, 75mm
max armour [in a sloped form], 76.2mm gun and 2 mg.  The KV1 was the heavy
tank:  43.5 tons, 25mph, 90mm armour max [sloped] 76.2mm gun, 3 mg.  KV2
was the assault gun version of the KV1:  52 tons, 12 mph, 110mm armour
max, armed with 152mm gun and 3 mg.
 > 5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
>    border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
>    Finland!)
        Little discussed fact about Finland - the initial Russian attack
utilized poor quality troops.  The Russian theory of defence (massed human
bodies) is easier the cross with armour.  Stalin was not concerned with
the human loss that massed defence entailed, the USSR had enough men and
resources to suffer huge losses and still maintain a force.>
> 6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?
        In danger of being too flip but, Hitler was an idiot.  He felt the
Soviets would be suing for peace by September, so, why prepare for a
winter campaign -- not exactly the way to run a campaign.>
> I think these questions are enough for this time. Looking forward to
> interseting answers and I thank you in advance!
>
> Allan
>
        Allan:  I hope  my answers have helped, they are mostly off the
top of my head (tank details did come from a handy book).  Thank you for
such interesting questions.  I've read this group for a month but this is
the first time I've ever wanted to respond to anything.  Let me know if
you think my answers should go out across the whole group, right now I've
just sent this to you.

        Neal Parsons, MA history (WW2), WLU University, Waterloo Canada >
################################################# > #                #
> #  Allan Myrvang                  #
> #  Sildegrend                  #
> #  N - 5590 ETNE                  #
> #  Norway                   #
> #  Phone number 04 75 65 33               #
> #  Internet <AMyrvang@Oscar@No  192.124.156.38>#
> #################################################
>
>
> PS I tried yesterday to send this letter to the list, but due to
>    system problems it must have been illegible. Excuse me so much!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 18:55:13 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <flb@FLB.OPTIPLAN.FI>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries (Finland, again)

> Date:         Wed, 18 Aug 1993 09:29:18 -0400
> From: "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: WW II Mysteries
>
> >1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?
>
> The USSR again attacked at the end of 1939, this time Finland was the
> target. Although the USSR initially met with failure and suffered heavy
> casualties, in the end victory was attained.

In a manner of speaking.  Stalin's demands shrank
as his failure to overwhelm Finland became more
and more glaring to the rest of the world.

> The western allies (France,
> Britain, and Polish survivors) were to have intervened in spring 1940, but
> by then it was hopeless for Finland, and the troops were diverted to
> invade/assist Norway.

A book entitled "The Request That Never Came" (I think)
(or "Plea" ?) asserts that if the Finns had made a formal
request for aid, which they were under some pressure from
the Allies to do, it would have come, but that the Finnish
government of the day decided against it, for reasons having
to do with (1) the likely (lack of) value of the aid, and
(2) how it would affect the political situation that would
develop after the war.

(And as it turned out, after the war the Allies left Finland
to sort out its affairs with the Soviets by itself, and Stalin
showed some generosity in their bilateral dealings.)

--
* Fred Baube (tm) GU/MSFS/88 baube@optiplan.fi
* #include <disclaimer.h>
* Glasnost for the FBI
* Free Leonard Peltier

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 11:00:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

On the subject of Soviet maneuver theory before and during WWII, the Soviets
did indeed have a very fertile line of thinking going on concerning tank
warfare.  The leading lights were Mikhail Tukhachevskii & V. K. Triandafillov.
They devised a concept known as Deep Battle, which was far more solid and
conceptually grounded than the mish-mash of ideas retroactively coined
"blitzkrieg."  Tukhachevskii was a charismatic leader, a throwback to the Tsar-
ist Army, both factors contributing to his demise in 1936 in Stalin's purges.
Stalin, being deranged but not stupid, kept several of Tukhachevskii's
proteges around should he need to revive the Deep Battle concept, one of these
being one Georgii Zhukhov.  Around the time of the Finnish War, the Soviet Army
was dominated by conservative infantry-oriented thinkers, like Klimenti
Voroshilov, who dismembered Tukhachevskii's tank corps, and pushed doctrinal
concepts far more "politically correct" than militarily effective.  As a result
of the Finnish debacle and the obvious success of the German's the Red Army was
in the process of ressurecting large tank formations when Hitler launched "Fall
Barbarossa" in June 1941.  As for the notion that the Red Army was being
concentrated for a lunge into German-held Poland, I would suggest a look at the
maps of the dispositions of 22 June 1941.  The Red Army was spread out between
the frontier and the old border, protected by the so-called "Stalin Line."
These reflected a battle of concepts going on within the Soviet High Command as
how best to deal with a German attack--meet it on the border, or utilize a
variant of "elastic defense."  Despite Stalin's suicidal counter-attack-at-all-
costs orders of the fall of 1941, the Red Army did indeed manage to halt the
Wehrmacht at Moscow.  By then the ressurrection of Tukhachevskii's Deep Battle
was in full swing, with its first great success occuring in Zhukov's "Operation
Saturn" at Stalingrad in November 1942.  After that it was the governing
doctrine that destroyed the Wehrmacht and brought Stalin to Berlin by 1945.
For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I would like
to point out that 5 of every 6 German combat casualties in World War II came on
the Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated in World War II by the Soviets,
plain and simple--and with a combat doctrine far more sound than blitzkrieg.

For more information on the Soviet style of war, I reccommend *Race to the
Swift: Thoughts on Twenty-First Century Warfare* and *Deep Battle: The Brain
child of Marshal Tukhachevskii* both by Brigadier Richard Simpkin.  The former
is simply the best treatise on military theory since Bernard Brodie's *The
Absolute Weapon*.  For more on the politics of the Soviet High Command, I
suggest John Erickson's venerable but excellent *The Soviet High Command*.  On
the Soviet pre-war dispositions and debate, I think Bryon Fugate's flaky but
detailed *Operation Barbarossa* does a relatively good job of examining the
available evidence, although his contention that the outcome of Barbarossa was
all according to Stalin's plans is, well, ludicrous.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:37:01 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

> 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

The dates have mostly been pointed out (BTW, the German invasion was June
22, 1941, not July).  The reasons: ostensibly, the occupation of eastern
Poland was the reclamation of what was rightfully Soviet territory and the
rescue of abused Ukrainian and Byelorussian minorities in that area.  I.e.,
pretty much the same motive that the Germans claimed.  For the Baltic State
and, especially, Finland, the claimed motivation was to improve the
defensability of Soviet territory, that is, the Baltic coast and
Leningrad.  A chunk of Romania was grabbed, more diplomatically, for the
same reason.

> 2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
>    border in June 1941?

The theories have all been stated.  One nuance that was omitted was the
concept of a spoiling attack; it is possible that Stalin intended, upon
receiving word of imminent German invasion, to launch an attack of his own
before the Germans got moving.

> 3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

Also well-covered by others.  The ponderous chain of command, with Stalin
at its head, played the biggest role.  They were also fighting the most
skilled and efficient army in the world.  They certainly fought no worse
than, say, the French.

> 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
>    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
>    in Germany???

In 1940 and 1941, the Soviets had the best tanks in the world.  In 1941,
they also had 22,000 tanks, about half of which actually ran. 8-)  While
there were a number of technical problems with even the best Soviet armor (no
radios, 2-man turrets, poor visibility, etc) the deciding factors in
their early defeats were:

 - the skill and experience of the German tankers
 - the flexibility allowed by the German system of command
 - the well-practiced combined arms tactics of the Germans, especially
        the dominance of German airpower

This last point is not to be underestimated; it is quite comparable to the
situation in France in 1944, where Allied airpower neutralized the
technical superiority of German armor.


The Soviets had, in fact, been one of the early innovators of the concept
of the Tank Corps (a large formation of tanks and supporting arms).  Their
pioneer was Marshal Tuhkachevsky, one of the most important figures in the
Red Army.  The tank corps died with him in Stalin's Purge.

(A sideline on the Purge; _The Great Patriotic War_, recently published,
claims that as a result of the Purge one Siberian division found itself
commanded by a lieutenant, the highest-ranking officer left.)

By the time of the German invasion, the new crop of officers was beginning
to recommend the formation of large tank units, and orders to that effect
were given in the fall of 1941  (by which time there weren't enough tanks
available to fill the demands for a tank corps).

> 6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?

The plans called for the effective defeat of the Red Army in about six
weeks, to be followed by a more leisurely occupation of the western USSR
(the only part considered worth controlling, everything west of the Volga).
Given that the French Army had been defeated in less time than that and
that the Russians were believed to be even less capable than them, and
assuming that the masses were eager to rebel against the Communists (which
was Hitler's assumption), this did not seem entirely unreasonable.  In the
event, by six weeks into the campaign the Germans had essentially met their
objectives; they destroyed as much of the Red Army as they had thought
would be necessary to defeat the USSR.

In other words, they underestimated Russia, and found themselves fighting
months after they thought the affair would be concluded.  By that point,
the supply lines were fully utilized just keeping the units at the front in
marginal supplies; no capacity was available for winter equipment.





Has anyone on the list read _Hitler's Panzers East_ ?  It claims to be an
historical analysis and reconstruction; changing some key decisions, it
apparently argues that Germany could have defeated the USSR.  I thumbed
through a copy in a bookstore, but put it down as I have little interest in
paying for someone else's crackpot "what if" ideas (I generate quite enough
of my own, for free! 8-)   It could be of value, though, if it presents a
lot of factual evidence as a starting point; i.e, "In August, the Germans
had xxxx tanks running, with yyy replacements being received each month and
fuel for zzzz miles."


Finally, many thanks for the very informative responses to my question
about historical jeeps!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Aug 1993 16:48:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: REF: Barbarossa and later.

Here's an interesting study on the Eastern Front, covering the early period
of planning and attack:

THE GERMAN CAMPAIGN IN RUSSIA, PLANNING AND OPERATIONS (1940-1942)
Center for Military History, United States Army, Washington, D.C.
CMH Pub 104-21.

"The purpose of this study is to describe German planning and operations
in the first part of the campaingn against Russia.  The narrative starts
with Hitler's initial plans for an invasion of Russia and ends at the time
of Germany's maximum territorial gains during the battle of Stalingrad.
A subsequent volume will depict the course of events from the Russia
counteroffensive in November 1942 to the capture of Berlin in April 1945

"The material for this study was obtained from German military records now
in the custody of The Adjutant General, Department of the Army.  Monographs
by former German general officers who had an active part in the planning and
operations provided additional information.  The authors of these mono-
graphs, prepared for the Historical Division, United States Army, Europe,
include Generaloberst (Gen.) Franz Halder, Chief of Staff of the German Army
from 1938-1942; Generaloberst Gotthard Heinrici, a former corps, army, and
army group commander on the Russian front; and several others."

You might also want to check out the facimilies of Directive 21 and the
text of the Soviet-German Non-aggresion Pact (plus some additional infor-
mation) available from Marshall University's ftp site BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU.
(Do I need to repost the instructions for FTP and HNSource again?)


Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Aug 1993 to 18 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There are 10 messages totalling 525 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW II Mysteries (blitz => sitz)
  2. USAAF 19 AUG 43
  3. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory (5)
  4. WW II Mysteries (2)
  5. weap: destroiers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 11:43:14 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <flb@FLB.OPTIPLAN.FI>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries (blitz => sitz)

> Date:         Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:37:01 EDT
> From: "William B. Thacker" <wbt@cbemf.att.com>

But first, more on Finland ..

> > 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?
>
> [..] For the Baltic State
> and, especially, Finland, the claimed motivation was to improve the
> defensability of Soviet territory, that is, the Baltic coast and
> Leningrad.

Soviet pre-war demands centered exactly on this issue.
A book "Cold Will: The Defense of Finland" says that
Finland botched it in the negotations that led to war,
by standing on ideals when a certain amount of *real-
politik* was called for.  Over the course of the nego-
tiations Stalin's demands softened *considerably*.
It was an avoidable war.  I asked a poli sci prof here
his opinion of the thesis, and he said he can't judge,
that the author of Cold Will had access to official
Finnish records closed to all others.


And now the juicy part ..  :-)

> > 6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?
>
> The plans called for the effective defeat of the Red Army in about six
> weeks, to be followed by a more leisurely occupation of the western USSR
> (the only part considered worth controlling, everything west of the Volga).
> Given that the French Army had been defeated in less time than that and
> that the Russians were believed to be even less capable than them, and
> assuming that the masses were eager to rebel against the Communists (which
> was Hitler's assumption), this did not seem entirely unreasonable.  In the
> event, by six weeks into the campaign the Germans had essentially met their
> objectives; they destroyed as much of the Red Army as they had thought
> would be necessary to defeat the USSR.
>
> In other words, they underestimated Russia, and found themselves fighting
> months after they thought the affair would be concluded.  By that point,
> the supply lines were fully utilized just keeping the units at the front in
> marginal supplies; no capacity was available for winter equipment.
>
>
> Has anyone on the list read _Hitler's Panzers East_ ?  It claims to be an
> historical analysis and reconstruction; changing some key decisions, it
> apparently argues that Germany could have defeated the USSR. [..]

I raised this a couple of months ago but no-one rose to take the bait ..

I have not read the book, but have gone over two accounts:
Stolfi wrote an article in "Command" magazine (wargaming),
and hia book was heavily critiqued in an issue of "Europa"
magazine (ditto).

Stolfi's idea is that the fantastic accomplishments of
blitzkrieg were an unexpected surprise in every case, and
that his plan for the Soviets *was* to take enough territory
to become economically self-sufficient: a "siege" mentality.

Thus Stolfi explains the apparently otherwise inexplicable,
like long waits in the autumn.

Stolfi maintains that the war was lost for Germany not
in 1939 or 1942 or 1943, but in July and August of 1941.

With this in mind I put out questions about finding maps
and other materials re. the pre-war locations of essential
resources (POL, metals, etc), and it seems that most libra-
ries in the US should be well-stocked with maps distributed
by the US gov't after the war.

There was a long, long "Germany Wins!" thread on CONSIM-L.

/fred

--
* Fred Baube (tm) GU/MSFS/88 baube@optiplan.fi
* #include <disclaimer.h>
* Glasnost for the FBI
* Free Leonard Peltier

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 07:07:16 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 19 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
THURSDAY, 19 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Brigadier General Howard C Davidson
becomes Commanding General Tenth Air Force.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 85:
Three Luftwaffe airfields in The Netherlands are targetted:
  1. 125 B-17's are dispatched to Gilze-Rijen and Flushing Airfields; 38
B-17's hit Gilze-Rijen at 1802-1814 hours and 55 hit Flushing at 1756
hours; they claim 29-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost and 42
damaged; casualties are 9 WIA and 41 MIA; this mission is escorted by 175
P-47's who claim 9-2-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost and the pilot is
listed as MIA.
  2. 45 B-17's are dispatched to Woensdrecht Airfield but weather prevents
them hitting the target.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 27A, 27B and 28: Three Luftwaffe air-
fields in France are targetted:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Amiens/Glisy Airfield; all hit the target
at 1129 hours; they claim 1-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-26 is damaged
beyond repair and 9 are damaged; casualties are 2 WIA.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Poix/Nord Airfield; 35 hit the target at
1218 hours; 1 aircraft is damaged; there are no casualties.
  3. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Bryas Sud Airfield but the target is
obscured by cloud and the mission is aborted.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): About 70 B-24's bomb the marshal-
ling yard at Foggia, Italy. P-40's fly coastal reconnaissance over the toe
of Italy and bomb roads and buildings.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, 150+
Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb the Foggia
marshalling yard, while almost 100 medium bombers hit marshalling yards at
Sapri and Salerno; the bombers, and escorting P-38's claim 34 enemy planes
shot down, against 8 losses; Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF)
A-36's attack the Cantanzaro marshalling yard; P-40's on sweeps over the
Italian toe attack a train near Melito di Porto Salvo and strafe a small
number of trucks.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), 3d Photographic Reconnaissance
and Mapping Group, ceases operating from Gela/Ponte Olivo, Sicily with
F-4's and returns to it's base at Ariana, Tunisia.
  The 86th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 47th Bombardment Group
(Light) transfer from Torrente Coumunelli to Gerbini, Sicily with A-20's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's, operating in pairs and with fighter escort, hit barges at
Timbala Bay on Vella Lavella Island, Kakasa radio station on Gill Island,
and a beached vessel in Paraso Bay. From this date through 28 Aug, Japanese
airplanes attack Allied forces in the Barakoma area of Vella Lavella
Island, losing a considerable number of aircraft (claims total about 50) to
Allied fighters and ground fire without doing any great damage to the
Allies.
  HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Espiritu Santo Island,
New Hebrides Islands to Guadalcanal Island, Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's attack Manokwari, sink a small craft near Babo, and bomb Larat and
Saumlakki in the Tanimbar Islands. On Timor Island, B-25's hit Koepang,
Fuiloro, and Lautem.
  HQ 375th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Port Moresby to Dobodura, New
Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 09:15:01 CDT
From:    John Hirvela <John=Hirvela%EMC=Srvc%Eng=Hou@BANGATE.COMPAQ.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

Shawn Robert Woodford spake:

>For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I would
>like to point oery 6 German combat casualties in World War II came on the
>Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated in World War II by the Soviets,
>plain and simple--and with a combat doctrine far more sound than blitzkrieg.

Shawn's comments brought up a counterpoint in my mind that may be an urban
legend, but I recall reading somewhere that in every battle on the Eastern
Front the Soviets actually had more casualties than the Germans, even in
battles the Soviets won.  Would that be a criticism of Soviet combat
doctrine?  I agree, though, that WWII was won/lost on the Eastern Front.

Regards,
John
john=hirvela%emc=srvc%eng=hou@bangate.compaq.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 11:48:10 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

> For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I
> would like to point out that 5 of every 6 German combat casualties
> in World War II came on the Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated
> in World War II by the Soviets, plain and simple...

This statistic is meaningless without some associated context.  For
example, what was the capture ratio on the two fronts?  (I don't know
the answer, I'm just asking to illustrate the 5 out of 6 ratio doesn't
mean much by itself.)  How about casualty/capture relationships? Is
there a comparison of casualties to territory captured?  Also, the
conclusion doesn't take into account the fact that the Luftwaffe
wasn't as active on the Eastern Front since much of it was defending
Germany from strategic bombing.  Without the western Allies, I'm not
sure who would have won a purely Soviet-German slugfest.  By 1945,
the Soviets were scraping around for troops just as the Germans were,
just not to the extent that the Germans were.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK?  Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists.  I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 19:25:32 +0200
From:    Allan Myrvang <Amyrvang@OSCAR.BBB.NO>
Subject: WW II Mysteries

If people should like to send me an answer, I hope they send the
answer to the list first and foremost, WITH a COPY to my private
address. My problem is that I cannot receive every day's total
discussion. I cannot simply pay the telephone bill.

Allan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 14:34:06 BRA
From:    "Silvio E.G. Melo" <COV90105@UFRJ.BITNET>
Subject: weap: destroiers

    I need some information about the following class os destroiers:
- Horace A. Bass (US)
- Furitsuki (JAP)
- Hatsume (JAP)
- Yung Hsiang (Ex-JAP)
    Anyone may be help me? Tank's in advance.
                                   Silvio E. G. Melo

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 13:03:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

Two responses here: 1.  The combat casualty figure of 5 of 6 Germans going down
on the Eastern Front (not including the Balkans) includes K,W,MIA, POW and is
merely intended to illustrate that the back of the Wehrmacht was broken by the
Red Army, not by the Allies, or by the Combined-Bomber Offensive.

2.  As to the casualty ratio between German and Soviet losses on the Eastern
Front, the "urban myth" is quite valid--the Soviets took somewhere between two
and three times the combat casualties the German did.  I would agree that this
can be used to support the contention that the German's were indeed far more
effective at the tactical and operational levels.  Yet, for all of the German
Army's prowess, the panzer divisions seldom won any decisive operational
successes after the fall of France.  Case Barbarossa was spectacularly
effective, but blitzkrieg fell short at Moscow, Stalingrad, Alem Halfa, Kursk,
Bastogne, etc...

Conversely, after Manstein's "Miracle of the Donets" in the Spring of 1943, the
Red Army ran up an impressive string of operational successes that the Soviet
High Command translated into a decisive strategic advantage.  The Soviets were
painfully aware that they could never hope to attain anything like the German
Army's combat effectiveness.  If you become familiar with the works of M.
Tukhachevskii and V. K. Trinadfillov, who provided the theoretical background
to the Red Army's WWII doctrine, the key in warfare was adequate resources. So
to offset the German superiority, the Soviets outmached them in material, human
as well as industrial.  They also tailored their tactics and operations to
their limitations as well as strenths, within the framework of their strategic
goals and theoretical foundations.  Deep Battle was far more integrated in this
context than Blitzkrieg, which only worked for the Germans when everything went
well for them.  The Soviets created the conditions for their victory, rather
than relying on military opportunism, like the Germans had to.

It is for this reason I find those who see the Wehrmacht as the epitome of
military success to be way off base.  Ultimately the Germans lost, not because
of things beyond their control, but because they went to war banking on the
innate quality of their troops and the superiority of German military thought.
When they encountered a system with a sounder way of making war, they were
defeated, not overwhelmed.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 16:15:14 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

Shawn Robert Woodford wrote:
> For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I would
> like to point out that 5 of every 6 German combat casualties in World War
> II came on the Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated in World War II
> by the Soviets, plain and simple--and with a combat doctrine far more
> sound than blitzkrieg.

I disagree at least somewhat with two ideas/opinions expressed above

(1): The USSR defeated Germany.

That "5 of every 6 German combat casualties in WW2 came on the eastern
front" does not, to me, equate with cause of defeat.

Perhaps a similiar argument might be advanced for the asian/pacific
portion of the war by saying: X of 6 Japanese combat casualties occured
in China; thus China defeated Japan. I don't know what X is...maybe 3
or so I'd guess, but the number isn't my point. Its just that I do not
find casualties to be a good measure of cause of defeat.

I'd agree the USSR played the major role in the defeat of Germany, but I
don't think the USSR could have done it alone (say, if Britain dropped out
of the war after Dunkirk as expected by Hitler). IMO, the decisive factors
in Germanys defeat were:

 a) industrial resource shortage: Germany was out-produced. See the book
    _Brute Force_ for a discussion. Apart from Gemany's limited natural
    resources, the Allied naval blockade and Combined Strategic Bombing
    campaigns were also a part of this. As was sabotage and destruction
    before capture of those resources in conquered territory. Germany
    captured much resources, but was unable to use them effectively.
    All this made much worse by poor industrial policy.

 b) military manpower shortage: yes, just like Shawn suggested  :^)
    Partially offset by: German's use of slave labor to free German men
    for military use; German's virtual drafting of racial Germans in
    occupied territories; use of willing allies. Germany's policy WRT
    some ethnicities turned what might have been allies into enemies.

 c) too many enemies on too many fronts: this exasperated the resource and
    manpower problems, particularly WRT the western allies. Germany had to
    keep many troops away from the eastern front (the main front of the
    German army) to protect the conquered territories and Germany. The
    vastness of the USSR (and its under-developed transport net) also hurt.

 d) Loss of Air Superiority: An army that can't maneuver because of enemy
    air attacks is doomed to nearly static warfare. In static war, the
    side with the most/biggest guns wins. Germany's edge against the USSR
    and western allies was flexibility in mobile warfare. Without it, the
    attrition tactics of the allies and USSR became effective.

To wrap up, it was Shawn's "plain and simple" comment that bugged me  :-)

---
Now on to the Shawn's other opinion:
(2): The USSR's triumph was due to a better combat doctrine.

I disagree. The USSR won battles because they overwhelmed the enemy with
firepower and numbers. It was attrition that destroyed the German military,
not fancy maneuvers. I would agree the USSR *developed* a good combat
doctrine, but I don't see much evidence that it was put into substantial
real use in WW2. The "Russian Steamroller" was descriptive.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 16:25:29 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

Neal Parsons writes:
> On Tue, 17 Aug 1993, Allan Myrvang wrote:
>
>  > 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
> >    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
> >    in Germany???
>         I'll assume you mean around the time of Barbarossa and perhaps over
> the next year.  The main German tank was the Panzer IV F2 which came onto
> the Eastern front in 1942 (24tons, 25mph, 50mm max armour, armed with long
> 75 mm gun and 2 mg.), also there was the Panzer IVG which was slightly
> upgraded IVF2.  These fine battle tanks were in for quite a shock when the
> began to meet the famous T-34 and less known KV1 and KV2.

The timeline here is a bit muddled.  As Neal says, the Pzkw IV F2 didn't
reach the eastern front until 1942.  This was the first of the
long-barreled Pzkw IV's; all versions previous (i.e., all those in service
in 1941) carried the short 7.5cm L/24, with limited armor piercing
capability.  By the time these tanks saw service, the T34 was no longer a
surprise.  (In fact, the PzIV G was on par with the T34/76; arguably superior
in many respects,  especially gunnery.)

In 1941, the main German battle tank was the PzKw III.  The current version
carried a 5cm gun; these were mostly of 42 caliber length, although the
superior L/60 gun was carried by the latest J model.  Still, a large number
of the PzIII's in service carried only a 3.7cm gun; including the very
large quantities of PzKw 38(t) still in service, the 3.7cm was Germany's
main tank gun for Barbarossa.  Worse, PzKw II's (with 2cm guns) still made
up a significant part of the panzer forces.

It was these tanks that had to overcome the first encounters with T34's and
KV's.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Aug 1993 16:40:59 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

> I disagree at least somewhat with two ideas/opinions expressed above
>
> (1): The USSR defeated Germany.
>
> That "5 of every 6 German combat casualties in WW2 came on the eastern
> front" does not, to me, equate with cause of defeat.

It also has to be kept in mind that in the combat theaters on the ground,
where much of these casualty figures come from, that the USSR was in
physical combat with the Germans much longer and earlier than the allies.

The Germans had "little" trouble going through relatively undefended
Europe, but the Allies (sans USSR) didn't really hit the Germans hard
until Normandy, 1944.

I'd like to see the breakdown of casualty figures for air crews.  It
would be quite obvious that it could be argued that the U.S. and
Britain, primarily, was the sole cause of the defeat of the Luftwaffe
because of the high percentage of casualties in those theaters.  However,
if the Luftwaffe had not been kept busy in other areas as well (including
the Eastern Front), the results may have been different.

> I'd agree the USSR played the major role in the defeat of Germany, but I
> don't think the USSR could have done it alone (say, if Britain dropped out
> of the war after Dunkirk as expected by Hitler). IMO, the decisive factors
> in Germanys defeat were:

The USSR never did it alone.  The lend-lease program was in full swing
and the USSR received many items from materials, aircraft, weapons,
ammunition and vehicles from the west.  Without those supplies, the
USSR could very possibly have not held out.  In some clear instances
(Don't ask me to cite them... :-) there were cases where U.S. built
trucks were able to keep supply lines open for food, ammunition and
troops -- supplies that would otherwise have been carried in by hand,
making the situation bleak(er) or simply impossible.

The Allies were involved in the Eastern Front from the beginning even
though troops weren't necessarily there.

> To wrap up, it was Shawn's "plain and simple" comment that bugged me  :-)

Nothing is plain and simple.  Everything has a lot of connections.

If the Luftwaffe had not had to defend against the Allied air attacks,
what would freeing those resources have done at the Eastern Front, for
a simple example?

What would have happened to the Allied invasion plans if "the isles" had
fallen during the Battle of Britain?

How would the landings at Normandy have been affected or changed if
Rommel had been successful in capturing and securing North Africa?

There is a LOT of cause and effect in warfare -- especially World
Warfare.

> Now on to the Shawn's other opinion:
> (2): The USSR's triumph was due to a better combat doctrine.
>
> I disagree. The USSR won battles because they overwhelmed the enemy with
> firepower and numbers. It was attrition that destroyed the German military,
> not fancy maneuvers. I would agree the USSR *developed* a good combat
> doctrine, but I don't see much evidence that it was put into substantial
> real use in WW2. The "Russian Steamroller" was descriptive.

The Soviets, like the British, were basically beaten more than once.

In the British case, Hitler (et. al.) simply didn't recognize it.  In
the Soviet case, being able to survive a brutal winter with open supply
lines meant survival -- sticking it out better than the enemy.  All of
these things were the result of many different items linking together to
create a final result.  The most important, perhaps, being willpower,
patience and sacrifice.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Aug 1993 to 19 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 8 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 20 AUG 43
  2. WWII Stat Request (2)
  3. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory
  4. Clip-Art
  5. weap: destroiers
  6. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine
  7. USAAF 21-22 AUG 43

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 07:14:39 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 20 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
FRIDAY, 20 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS: Army Air Forces, India-Burma
Sector, China-Burma-India Theater is activated at New Delhi, India.
Lieutenant General George E Stratemeyer assumes command. Components include
the Tenth Air Force, China-Burma-India Air Service Command (Provisional),
China-Burma-India Training Unit (Provisional) and several lesser units.

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): X Air Force Service Command (AFSC)
personnel and organizations are absorbed by CBI ASC (Prov), see above.
Brigadier General Robert C Oliver, Commanding General X AFSC, becomes
Commanding General CBI ASC (Prov).

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-25's, with fighter escort,
bomb Tien Ho Airfield at Canton; they claim 5 interceptors shot down. 15
P-40's intercept 21 fighters over Kweilin; 2 P-40's and 2 Zekes are shot
down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The air echelon of the
22d Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine Group, arrives at
Dunkeswell, England from the US with B-24's. The ground echelon remains in
the US, then moves to Utah in Sep 43 where it is inactivated.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 66th Fighter Wing transfers
from Duxford, England to Sawston, England where it will remain until Oct 45.
  HQ 482d Bombardment Group (Pathfinder) and it's 812th, 813th and 814th
Bombardment Squadrons (Pathfinder) are activated at Alconbury, England
where they will remain until May/Jun 45. The 812th and 813th, equipped with
B-17's, will fly their first pathfinder mission on 27 Sep 43 and 24 Sep
respectively; the 814th, equipped with B-24's, will fly it's first path-
finder mission on 11 Jan 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): P-40's strafe and bomb shipping
off the Italian toe and communications targets on land.  Hits are scored on
bridges, railway yards, and railway cars.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's hit the Capua and Aversa marshal-
ling yards, while B-25's bomb the Benevento marshalling yard, and P-40's
attack the airfield at Monserrato, Sardinia; Northwest African Tactical Air
Force (NATAF) fighters hit road and railway at Gioia and trucks near Locri
during missions along the E and W coasts of the Italian toe.
  HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and it's 84th and 85th Bombardment
Squadrons (Light) transfer with A-20's from Torrente Comunelli to Gerbini,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): HQ XIII Bomber
Command transfers from Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands to
Guadalcanal Island in the Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
24 B-24's, escorted by 46 P-38's, hit Boram Airfield in the late morning;
P-38's claim 19 fighters shot down. A-20's bomb Lae and hit the Salamaua
area where enemy forces have abandoned positions on Mount Tambu and
Komiatum Ridge and are manning last-ditch defensive position at Salamaua.
B-25's strafe barges near Cape Gloucester on New Britain Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:06:00 EDT
From:    ROBERT GANNON <RHG@PSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Stat Request

I'm in need of a few WWII figures showing naval destruction,
and for some reason my references don't help.  Can anyone out
there supply:

* The total, worldwide naval destruction (in either tons
     or vessels?

* Total destruction of Axis & Allied ships (if possible,
     broken down by country, but that's not necessary)?

* Loss of submarines by countries other than U.S. Germany
     Italy and Japan?

My eternal thanks.
======================================================================
Robert Gannon              |  Bitnet:    RHG@PSUVM
35 Burrowes Bldg.          |  Internet:  RHG@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Penn State                 |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or 355-0943
University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:32:56 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

Scott Hannon writes:

> Shawn Robert Woodford wrote:
> > For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I would
> > like to point out that 5 of every 6 German combat casualties in World War
> > II came on the Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated in World War II
> > by the Soviets, plain and simple--and with a combat doctrine far more
> > sound than blitzkrieg.
>
> I disagree at least somewhat with two ideas/opinions expressed above
> (1): The USSR defeated Germany.

This discussion is getting nowhere because it's clear that Shawn and Scott
have different meanings.

I've often said pretty much what Shawn said; "The USSR beat Germany, and we
helped."  I put it that way primarily for shock value; Americans (and, I
believe, British, but I'm willing to be corrected) are taught that *we* won
the war almost single-handedly.  This was particularly true in the 50's and
60's, when the Eastern Front was little-studied and enignmatic.  (On this
list and at other times when I know I'm talking to a knowledgable group,
that shock value isn't needed.)

Scott's point is, of course, correct.  The USSR did not defeat Germany
alone, and might well have lost without British and American aid.  Neither
did America's contribution, alone, win the war.

(On the other hand, if I *had* to attribute the victory to a single nation,
it would be the USSR.  It's just that the attribution would be
meaningless.)


>  a) industrial resource shortage: Germany was out-produced.
>     Apart from Gemany's limited natural
>     resources, the Allied naval blockade and Combined Strategic Bombing
>     campaigns were also a part of this. As was sabotage and destruction
>     before capture of those resources in conquered territory.

This is an example of the way western histories tend to present facts in
such a way as to inflate the importance of American/British roles. (I am
NOT saying that this is intentional misrepresentation, mind you!  Simply
that these facts, out of context, give the wrong impression.)

Germany was indeed outproduced, but the production losses because of the
blockade, bombing, and sabotage are outweighed by the production losses due
to Soviet guns.  For all the tanks we bombed in the factories and on the
railroads, the Russians blew up a lot more with gunfire.  (In other words,
if they hadn't been fighting the USSR, Germany wouldn't have been
outproduced even with our strategic actions.)

> Now on to the Shawn's other opinion:
> (2): The USSR's triumph was due to a better combat doctrine.
>
> I disagree. The USSR won battles because they overwhelmed the enemy with
> firepower and numbers.

Which is a pretty effective combat doctrine, no?  8-)  I think the argument
here is meaningless until we all know what "combat doctrine" means.

I would argue that by 1945 the Soviets had an excellent combat doctrine;
the optimal one, perhaps, given their raw materials.  The Red Army soldier
wasn't the same man as a Wehrmacht trooper; he was less educated, poorer
trained, and given less autonomy.  The USSR wasn't the same nation as
Germany; it made more tanks but less trucks.

So, what does "combat doctrine" mean?  If it means "best utilization of
the army", the Germans had the better doctrine; given an equal number of
men and tanks, they'd win.  If it means "best utilization of your
resources," it's a different story, and the Soviets are in the running.
They forged a combat doctrine that allowed them to defeat an enemy who was
man-for-man their better.

To understand my point, think historically; how many armies have been
unable to do what the USSR did?  History is loaded with examples of nations
who were, despite superiority, unable to overwhelm an enemy with firepower
and numbers.  Persians against the Greeks; barbarians versus the Romans;
Union versus Confederacy (pre-Grant), tribesmen versus the British; there
are hundreds of examples.  At first glance, it's easy to discount the
Soviet tactics as something any idiot could do, but that's a mistake.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 12:50:47 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Clip-Art

I am looking for clip art for the Douglas C-54/DC-4 aircraft.  Anyone know
where I can get it?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:57:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Stat Request

>
> I'm in need of a few WWII figures showing naval destruction,
> and for some reason my references don't help.  Can anyone out
> there supply:

  Most of what you need is in WARSHIP LOSSES OF WORLD WAR TWO, David Brown,
Arms and Armour Press (UK) or Sterling Publishing Co. (USA).  If you can't
find a copy, send me a note. Naval Historical Center gives it two flippers up.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 13:10:18 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: weap: destroiers

Sivlio, do you need specifications or operational history or both?  I can
help with the US destroyer, but I'm clueless on the Japanese ships. What
reference are you working from? Translational differences may make it hard
to determine the ships names.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 13:35:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine

I have little to add to William Thacker's keyboard eloquence, except to
reiterate my point that if operational and tactical excellence were all that
were needed to win wars, Nazi Germany would most likely still exist.  What the
Nazis could not do was integrate their combat effectiveness into an effective
strategy, which MUST take into account material imbalances.  Soviet military
thinkers came away from the First World War and their Civil War with this
firmly planted
in their minds and devised a combat doctrine synchronized with their


strategic realities.  German military thinkers chose to delude themselves as to
the strategic realities of their defeat, chosing instead to focus on their
operational and tactical shortcomings.  Hence, "blitzkrieg" represented a fatal
lack of rationalization of tactical and operational means with strategic ends--
this is the basic reason why the Germans lost the war.

Facile appreciations of German maneuver theory can be very dangerous--I believe
the US Army did itself no favors after Vietnam by becoming fascinated by it.
There is a great deal to be learned by studying the Wehrmacht, and much that
can be adapted in a search for optimal combat effectiveness, but ultimately
blitzkrieg can only be regarded as a theoretical dead end.  It is too bad that
Cold War prejudices still run so deep as to preculde objective consideration of
Soviet miltary thought, which was far more fertile and imaginitive than that in
Germany.

Lest anyone jump to the obvious conclusion, I add the caveat that there is
not necessarily a correlation between military thought and performance on the
battlefield, although the two are very much related, and must be considered
together.

For anyone interested, I recommend a three volume set edited by Williamson
Murray and Allan Millett out of Ohio State titled *Military Effectiveness*
for a series of essays on the effectiveness of the belligerents from World War
I through World War II--it illuminates the question in all aspects from
political effectiveness through tactical effectiveness.

On the question of the "Wehrmacht Mystique," I would reccomend one look at an
article by Daniel Hughes in Military Review (Dec. '86), "Abuses of German
Military History;"  Roger A. Beaumont, "On the Wehrmacht Mystique," Military
Review (July '86); Martin van Creveld, "On Learning From the Wehrmacht and
other Things," Military Review (Jan.'88); and Roger A. Beaumont, "Wehrmacht
Mystique Revisited," Military Review (Feb. 1990).

spasibo e doz'vedanye

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State (soon to be King's College, UofLondon)
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 15:32:54 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 21-22 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
SATURDAY, 21 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): During the Aleutian Campaign, 3 Jun 42 to 21
Aug 43, the Eleventh Air Force destroyed 69 aircraft, sank 21 and damaged
29 ships, and lost 29 of its own aircraft.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 14 B-24's, 7 B-25's, and 11
P-40's attack docks and the airfield at Hankow; a large force of fighters,
estimated at 50+, attacks the B-24 formation, shooting down 2 of the
B-24's; gunners on the B-24's claim 40+ fighters shot down. In the Hengyang
area, 19 P-40's battle 33 airplanes, shooting down 5 Zekes. S of Changsha,
9 P-38's clash with 12 Zekes, shooting down 3.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The air echelon of the
6th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine Group, arrives at
Dunkeswell, England from Gander Lake, Newfoundland with B-24's. The ground
echelon remains in Newfoundland and moves to Utah in Sep 43 where it is
inactivated on 30 Oct 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): B-24's attack a railroad
station, marshalling yard, and air depot at Cancello Arnone, Italy.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's and B-17's bomb marshalling
yards at Villa Literno and Aversa; the P-38 escort also attacks Aversa;
NASAF aircraft claim 20+ enemy fighters shot down; Northwest African Tacti-
cal Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit traffic on the Bovalino-Bagnara
road.
  HQ 42d Bombardment Wing (Medium) transfers to Ariana, Tunisia where
groups are assigned.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's and
fighters strafe barges in Doveli Cove and Marquana and Paraso Bays in the
Central Solomons.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's pound But and Dagua Airfields; B-17's bomb the Bogadjim area; and
single B-24's hit the Salamaua area and targets of opportunity at Malahang.
B-24's carry out a damaging strike against Pombelaa in the Celebes Island.

SUNDAY, 22 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 P-40's bomb Japanese HQ and a
supply dump at Tengchung, and strafe trucks and troops in the area; 2
others strafe road traffic between Tengchung and Lungling.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), Fourteenth Air Force, transfers
from Bishnupur, India to Kunming, China with F-5's. The flight which has
been operating from Kweilin since Jul will remain there until Sep 43.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command
Missions 30A and 30B: Two Luftwaffe airfields in France are the targets:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Beaumont-le-Roger Airfield; 35 hit the
target at 2110 hours; they claim 3-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-26 is lost
and 8 are damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 6 MIA.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Poix/Nord Airfield; they all return
early when they are unable to contact the escort fighters, RAF Spitfires.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): All fighter and medium bomber
groups of the Ninth Air Force are transferred to the Twelfth Air Force,
i.e.:
    12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Gerbini, Sicily with B-25's,
    57th Fighter Group and it's 64th, 65th and 66th Fighter Squadrons on
Sicily with P-40's,
    79th Fighter Group and it's 85th, 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons on
Sicily with P-40's,
    324th Fighter Group and it's 314th, 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons
at El Haouaria, Tunisia with P-40's, and
    340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 486th, 487th, 488th and
489th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Comiso, Sicily with B-25's.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's, with an escort of Northwest African
Tactical Air Force (NATAF) A-36's, bomb the marshalling yard at Salerno,
Italy; they claim 26 enemy fighters destroyed. NATAF fighters on armored
reconnaissance hit motor transport S of the Locri-Gioia Tauro, Italy area
and NE of Bagnara, Italy.
  HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Ponte Olivo to Gerbini,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's and US
Navy dive bombers, escorted by fighter aircraft, bomb barge centers on the
W coast of Vella Lavella Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's strike
Dili on Timor Island. In New Guinea, as a result of the air offensive
against Wewak and satellite airfields, Japanese airpower on New Guinea is
sufficiently neutralized for 4 Allied destroyers to proceed along the coast
from Milne Bay to Finschhafen; after bombarding Finschhafen during the
night of 22/23 Aug, the warships return to Milne Bay.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Aug 1993 to 20 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There are 2 messages totalling 52 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MISC: Aberdeen Museum
  2. ADMIN: New flag:TROUBLE:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Aug 1993 15:54:22 +0100
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: MISC: Aberdeen Museum

>         For those going to Aberdeen, be on the lookout for the T-34
> with the bogus towing eyelets.  Apparently, the craftsmen from Tamiya
> Model Company went to Aberdeen in order to study the vehicles to produce
> their various armor models and one of these was the T-34.  The particular
> T-34 they studied had had two additional towing eyelets welded on by the
> Americans who had brought it over after the war.  These two eyelets are
> positioned at the very front of the chasis of the vehicle.  Anyway, Tamiya
> faithfully reproduced these eyelets on all of the 1/35 scale kits (even
> though their box art does not show them!).  Other model companies followed
> suit and now many scale models of the T-34 have these American additions.
> To the modelers on the list:  Remove these eyelets from their models!
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com

Sort of like the Soviets when they copied the B-29 that was interned and came up
with the Tu-4 (Bull). The B-29 had been damaged on some previous missions and
was sporting some patches when the Soviets got hold of it. reports have it that
the Tu-4 faithfully duplicated those patches on the knock-off versions :-)

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Aug 1993 15:11:36 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: New flag:TROUBLE:

Every once in a while I get error messages from sites that I can't reach.
I'd rather not delete those members but I get a error message for each
posting to the list for each of the troublesome sites. 250+ error messages
a day on a bad stretch.

So, I'm going to post a note with the TROUBLE flag when I get these msgs.
If you see

TROBULE: mace.cc.purdue.edu

and that's not your site, ditch it. If it is your site, check to see if
you're address, or the address of a colleague, friend, classmate, etc.

I'm only going to try this on the most troublesome sites, the ones I can't
reach otherwise, so you shouldn't see many and they'll always be short.

Larry J

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Aug 1993 to 21 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There are 2 messages totalling 81 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine
  2. TAC: Lend-Lease relationship to Soviet Tactics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 00:09:42 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine

I think that it is incorrect to conclude in any way, from the fact that Germany
lost the war and the USSR and the allied won it, that the Blitzkrieg doctrine
was a 'dead end'. In the end, Germany was completely incapable to apply the
'Blitzkrieg' concept, partly because of the inferiority of its ground troops in
quantity but often also in quality, and partly because it had lost air
superiority.

It seems doubtful that even 'Barbarossa' was an operation in accordance with the
theory, because air support was diminutive, tank commanders were subordinated to
infantry commanders, deep movements behind the enemy lines were discouraged, the
decisions of local commanders were hampered by dictates from Berlin, and most
important, the target of the whole operation was not cutting the Read Army to
pieces, but conquering territory of economic value.  The Whermacht kept some
tactical superiority, and drove the Soviet Army forward to Moscow, which looked
like Blitzkrieg because it was fast. But it wasn't a true Blitzkrieg.

The critique on the 'Blitzkrieg' concept, in comparison with the 'deep battle'
concept, seems to be that it did not include a full-scale preparation of the
country for war. I wonder whether this was a consequence of the national
background. The USSR was a vast and relatively underdeveloped country, with lots
of unused resources; thus it was natureal to make large-scale preparations a
part of the plan. Germany was a relatively small but highly industrialized
nation with little natural resources; thus it was normal to take it for granted
that all preparations possible would have been made. But also to avoid very
long-term preparations, because the German industry would be unable to match the
production of an opponent like the USSR or the US anyway.

In the end, it seems that the 'Blitzkrieg' concept offered the German army a
possible, or a nearly possible, way to win a war with the USSR, while the
so-called 'deep battle' concept would have been inapplicable. On the on the
other hand, 'deep battle' offered the Soviets an almost certain victory in the
end, but a better understanding of the 'blitzkrieg' concept could have spared
them the dangerous defeats of 1941.

Last but not least, it should be noted that the Soviet tactics of 1944-1945 were
unacceptable to any other force, because of their wastefulness with 'human
resources'. Do you really see the US, or any other civilised nation, adopt a
tactical concept that multiplies losses by three? Even if this guarantees a
victory? It is far more logical to adopt the 'blitzkrieg' concept, a little more
risky but in general less wasteful, and back it up with a substantial economic
power.

Emanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Aug 1993 18:26:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.COPLEX.COM>
Subject: TAC: Lend-Lease relationship to Soviet Tactics

>From a post by Robert Granvin on August 19, 1993--

>The USSR never did it alone.  The lend-lease program was in full swing
>and the USSR received many items from materials, aircraft, weapons,
>ammunition and vehicles from the west.  Without those supplies, the
>USSR could very possibly have not held out.  In some clear instances
>trucks were able to keep supply lines open for food, ammunition and

By the end of the war, Lend-Lease had supplied approximately 2/3 of
the trucks being used by the Soviet Union.  Also, US agriculture
ensured sufficient food supply for the majority of the Soviet Army.
That is, of course, in addition to the rest of Lend-Lease material
supplied to the Soviets and other countries.  IMO the Lend Lease
program is all that kept the allies afloat.  Without it we wouldn't
have had to think about...

>What would have happened to the Allied invasion plans if "the isles" had
>fallen during the Battle of Britain?
>How would the landings at Normandy have been affected or changed if
.

          Jeff
---
 . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Aug 1993 to 22 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 22 Aug 1993 to 23 Aug 1993
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Status: O

There are 18 messages totalling 660 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TAC: Lend-Lease rel.to Soviet Tactics
  2. USAAF 23 AUG 43
  3. USAAF DEC 41
  4. TRV: Greco-American Battleships
  5. INF: U.S. Naval Chronology
  6. WW II/Russian Front "mysteries"
  7. Soviet tank divisions in 1941
  8. 22 June 1941
  9. Raising the U-534
 10. TAC: production/blitzkrieg
 11. U-534 (2)
 12. Bath Iron Works
 13. The Net ADvertiser
 14. REP: Japan war reparations
 15. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory
 16. more U-534 information
 17. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 10:54:43 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <flb@FLB.OPTIPLAN.FI>
Subject: Re: TAC: Lend-Lease rel.to Soviet Tactics

> Date:         Sun, 22 Aug 1993 18:26:00 LCL
> From: Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com>
> Subject:      TAC: Lend-Lease relationship to Soviet Tactics
>
> US agriculture
> ensured sufficient food supply for the majority of the Soviet Army.

I'm not sure if it counts as "agri-
cultural", so I'll mention that ..

The US sent enormous amounts of SPAM to
the Soviets. Probably because it packed
the most calories possible per shipload.

I have read a quote from a senior Soviet
officer saying that without SPAM they
could not have made it to Berlin.

/fred  (a Monty Python fan)

--
* Fred Baube (tm) GU/MSFS/88 baube@optiplan.fi
* #include <disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 07:21:46 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 23 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
MONDAY, 23 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-25's fly low-level strike against
Myitnge, Burma bridge, knocking out a center span and badly damaging 2
others.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): B-24's hit a marshalling yard at
Bari, Italy.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's bomb the Battipaglia, Italy marshalling
yard. Fighter-bombers hit factory and barracks near Cagliari, Sardinia.
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) P-40's and A-36's escort NASAF
B-26's, and Spitfires fly uneventful tactical reconnaissance over NE Sicily
and the toe of Italy.
  HQ 313th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Kairouan, Tunisia to Sciacca,
Sicily.
  The 93d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers from Monastir to
Sidi Ahmed, Tunisia with P-39's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-24's and
P-39's strafe targets of opportunity on Wagina Island in the Solomon
Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's bomb the
town and airfield of Kendari on Celebes Island. B-25's hit targets in the
Aroe Islands. In New Guinea, B-26's pound Kela; and B-25's hit Marawasa,
Finschhafen, and Lillum Saun.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 07:26:16 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF DEC 41

The combat chronology of the USAAF for December 1941 has been forwarded to
the two ftp sites listed below for your use.


1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 07:21:48 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: TRV: Greco-American Battleships

Oops, while going over the logfiles I noticed that I had not acknowledged
the correct answers to the question about which American battleships
had been sunk by the Luftwaffe. Here'e the "official" answer and everyone
who responsed correctly has won (don't know what you've won, but you've
won :-).


04/23/41 Greek naval vessels sunk:
          Battleships KILKIS and LEMNOS, by German aircraft,
           Salamis, Greece, [KILKIS (ex-USS IDAHO BB-24) and LEMNOS
           (ex-USS MISSISSIPPI BB-23) were not operational at the
           time of the attack.]

(I *told* you it was a trick question.)

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 07:25:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: U.S. Naval Chronology

The first draft of the digitization of the U.S. Navy's Chronology of WWII
is done and will be uploaded to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu within the week.

This is a pure text scan of a U.S. Government Printing Office publication
and is in  the public domain.

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 10:38:24 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WW II/Russian Front "mysteries"

Allan,

     'Suggest you read OPERATION BARBAROSSA by Fugate, HITLER'S PANZERS
EAST by Stolfi, ROAD TO STALINGRAD by Erickson.

     The Germans invaded 22 Jun 41.  They were so successful at the begin-
ning because Stalin, Beria, etc. refused to believe the Germans would
attack.  On the first day, Red Army commanders could not get official
permission to shoot back.

     The Russians had 22,500 tanks (est.), the Germans 3,500.  The Russians
had the T34 and KV1 tanks which were far superior to anything the Germans
had.  (Like the Germans, they had many more light/obsolete tanks.)

     Lack of radios/communication/coordination handicapped the Russians.
Their units were clumsy.  Also, the Germans had the finest, battle-tested
troops in the world -- at that moment.

     'Hope this helps you get a start on the greatest/largest military
campaign in history.  I have a simple Russian Front game published on
ERIC -- GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR -- which you may find informative
and which is available via large research/university libraries worldwide.

Louis Coatney,
  Western Illinois University Library

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 10:44:54 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Soviet tank divisions in 1941

Emmanuel,

     The Soviets did have tank divisions in 1941.  There were roughly
30 mechanized corps, usually consisting of 2 tank divs and 1 motorized
infantry div.  I believe the theoretical number of tanks for a mechcorps
was a little over 1000.

     Your point about the Soviets being in the midst of re-equipping and
re-organization -- and your point about the destructive effect of the
Katyn-like massacre of "progressive"/pro-Tukhachevski members of the Red
Army officer corps -- was/were well taken.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 10:53:48 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: 22 June 1941

Again, the Germans invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941.

Incidentally, the Red Army frontier fortification troops and NKVD border
  guards fought like lions, in most cases.  Many of their wives and children
  had moved up to the border areas with them.  Those that weren't able to be
  evacuated were consumed by the disaster.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 11:00:06 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Raising the U-534

The following is an AP item from Monday morning's paper.

ANHOLT, Denmark - Gale force winds forced salvagers to postpone the
surfacing of a WWII German submarine yesterday, while historians
speculated that something of value might be in the U-boat.

Documents show that the U534, which was sunk by a Royal Air Force
bomber May 5, 1945, carried 16 tons of provisions.

"Such a submarine usually carried 12 to 13 tons of food, so one can't
rule out the possibility that there could be something else in the
cans", said Winnie Odder, a historian.

Salvagers said they hoped to bring the submarine up today.  They need
12 hours of calm weather to raise it from the sea bottom of the tiny
island of Anholt between Sweden and Denmark.

German historian Per Kluever said that according to WWII British
intelligence sources, 20 German submarines were supposed to leave
Germany for the northern seas in May 1945.

Kluever said that some of those submarines carried prominent Nazis
fleeing the collapsing Third Reich and carrying precious goods.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 12:39:39 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: TAC: production/blitzkrieg

I (Scott) wrote:
[a decisive factor in Germany's defeat was]:
>>  a) industrial resource shortage: Germany was out-produced.

Bill replies:
>This is an example of the way western histories tend to present facts in
>such a way as to inflate the importance of American/British roles....
>...these facts, out of context, give the wrong impression.
...
>Germany was indeed outproduced, but the production losses because of the
>blockade, bombing, and sabotage are outweighed by the production losses due
>to Soviet guns.

I think WW2 German industry, with a good supply of raw resources, an
undamaged transport system, and lack of bomber harrasment, could have been
double what it was. Thus production losss > gun losses. It comes down to
what you think German industry could have acheived.

Shawn Robert Woodford writes:
> What the Nazis could not do was integrate their combat effectiveness into
> an effective strategy, which MUST take into account material imbalances.
[But the USSR did.]
> "blitzkrieg" represented a fatal lack of rationalization of tactical and
> operational means with strategic ends--this is the basic reason why the
> Germans lost the war.

The USSR did not IMO have better strategic vision...it seems to have been
plenty faulty as demonstrated in Finland in 1940 and USSR in 1941/1942.
Germany was not IMO pursuing a dead end...as victory in Poland, Norway,
Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, and France (and *almost* the USSR)
seem to me to refute that idea.

Germany underestimated the size of the Red army and the difficulties caused
by terrain. They more-or-less did what they thought would win them the war
by August 1941. Given their poor intel on the USSR, its hard to say the
fault with Barbarossa was with blitzkrieg...the faulty intel analysis made
it seem it should have worked.

>It is too bad that Cold War prejudices still run so deep as to preculde
>objective consideration of Soviet miltary thought, which was far more
>fertile and imaginitive than that in Germany.

I don't think Soviet military theory has been ignored. The amount of
published work on the topic seems to refute that idea. The general
inappropriateness of Soviet doctrine for western militaries is a major
reason it doesn't see wider use. Many countries are not willing to expend
lives so freely, keep armys so large, and treat soldiers so badly. I'd
suggest the reason Soviet military theory was more furtile and imaginative
than Germany's during WW2 was due to the relative success of each sides
military performance. Success leads to stagnation, failure to change.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 12:49:13 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: U-534

According to the Associated Press, the U-534 was raised today off a
Danish Island.  Only 3 men of the crew of 52 were killed when the sub
was sunk by an RAF bomber on 5 May 45.

The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
and if so, what they found.  Except for damage to the tower by fishing
trawlers, the sub is in nearly intact.  The sub will be turned into a
museum at Hirtshals, Denmark.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 15:22:10 -0230
From:    NAME <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: Bath Iron Works

For more information about the shipyards at Bath, Maine, I
suggest you get in touch with:

     The Curator
     Maine Maritime Museum
     243 Washington Street
     Bath, Maine  04530
     USA

Hope this helps.

Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 12:57:56 CDT
From:    "D. Neff" <NEFF@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-534

>The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
>and if so, what they found.

   Was Geraldo Rivera there by chance? :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 18:35:11 +0200
From:    NetAdvertiser <netad@UDS01.UNIX.ST.IT>
Subject: The Net ADvertiser

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Advertising in the digest is completely free, except for commercial companies
which must submit a 75 $ fee in order to support the InfoNet Project work.

For any information, subscription and submission write to:
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*****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 15:09:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: REP: Japan war reparations

            *  *  *   C h i n a   N e w s   D i g e s t   *  *  *

                               (News Global)

                          Monday, August 16, 1993

Forwarded by: Liu Jian
Source: Reuter, August 14, 1993

TOKYO -- New Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa is considering setting up a
$9.8 billion fund to express Japan's repentance for its World War II
excesses, a newspaper said Saturday.

The daily Mainichi said the seven parties making up Hosokawa's coalition
government had started consultations on the fund.

The report said the government would provide the funds but would not be
directly involved in their disbursement. Other details, including whether
the beneficiaries would be individuals, institutions or governments, were
not yet decided.

The newspapers said Chief Cabinet Secretary Masayoshi Takemura would hold
consultations on the proposed fund with academics and other interested
parties.

Government officials were not immediately available to comment on the
report.

Hosokawa, on assuming power this week, has said he wants to make amends for
Japan's actions during its invasion of China in World War II, and on Tuesday
called the conflict "an aggressive war and a wrong war."

Hosokawa is expected to make some sort of apology in his first policy speech
at parliament on August 23.

But officials fear the policy of openness could encourage former victims of
Japanese colonialism to come forward demanding compensation.

However, the new government intends to uphold the position held by previous
Japanese governments that have maintained that Japan had fulfilled its war
reparations requirements via government-level agreements.

"Prime Minister Hosokawa is not considering reviewing Japan's stand on
reparation," Takemura told Friday's news conference.

----------------------end of forwarded text------------------------------

N93774

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 14:27:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

>From what I can gather, there is a decided misconception about what
"blitzkrieg" and what "Deep Battle" are.  Contrary to popular myth, there was
NO such thing as blitzkrieg, at least as defined by an German military
literature from 1919-1945.  The name blitzkrieg itself is no where to be found.
It was coined by an American journalist in September 1939.  Anglo-American
historians have been amazingly neglectful in its analysis of German Military
History, relying on biased memoirs, technical analyses derived through the lens
of homegrown theories (Liddell Hart, Fuller), and the huge mythology created by
the Allies in 1939-41 to explain ther shocking setbacks.  Only very, very
recently has a new generation of military historians bothered to look at the
German-language, primary sources.  Both of the German inter-war field manuals,
von Seeckt's 1922 version and von Beck's 1934 version contain no reference to
blitzkrieg, and I defy anyone to find anything but a superficial resemblance to
what we erroneusly define as blitzkrieg now, to what they advocated then.

>From what can be deduced from the fragmentary record, the Germans did not have
what Western military institutions would define as a combat "doctrine," in the
sense of a well-defined set of instructions, outlining their method of warfare.
Instead they relied on inculcating a common philosophy of war and a tremedous
amount of reliance upon subordinate initiative in the officer corps, and used
General Staff officers as watchdogs throughout the various command levels to
keep the system functioning.  German officerswere taught a common approach to
problem-solving, allowing for a decentralized means of conducting operations.
It was this flexibility that gave them such tactical and
operational superiority over their opponents.  This is what allowed them to
utilize their meagre resources effectively enough to defeat, the Poles, France,
etc.

The main lesson the German General Staff brought away from World War I was that
they failed due to a lack of sufficient resources.  Interestingly enough, this
is the same conclusion that the early Soveit Army thinkers came to as well.
Where they parted was on the solution to this.  The Germans decided that there
wasn't anything wrong with their tactical approach, but that it hadn't produced
victory because it hadn't been able to achieve a decision rapidly enough.  So
they began to emphasize those technologies and tactics that maximized speed--
tanks, aircraft, auftragstaktik, and infiltration tactics.  The early Panzer
waffe was a compromise between the cavalry approach advocated by many WWI vets
and the motorized infantry approach advocated by Brauchitsch, von
Tschischwitz and Guderian.  Because Germany could never produce enough tanks to
fully equip more than about 10% of their army, they had to rely on a way of
winning that de-emphasized pitched battle.  This resulted in an impasse between
the "Young Turks" in the Reichsheer advocating deep penetrations relying on
speed and confusion to disrupt the enemy--the cavalry approach; and the more
orthodox principle of encirclement, battle and annihilation espoused by the
older generation of German officers.  Thus, the Panzer divisions were set up in
such a way that maximized maneuver over battle.  As the war progressed they
rarely possessed enough tanks to pack a sufficient wallop, their artillery was
still truck-drawn rather than self-propelled.  Most importantly, their infantry
was transported on trucks, rather than half-tracks, forcing them to dismount to
fight, invariably resulting in their seperation from the tank spearhead.  Tanks
without infantry support are at a decided disadvantage in any terrain offering
even modest concealment to defending forces.  Moreover, the Panzer divisions
were as much tied to railroads for supply as the vast numbers of German
infantry divisions.  This limited them to "hops" of about 200km before lack of
supplies ground their advance to a halt.  These factors were instrumental in
the German failure to penetrate the British Dunkirk perimeter in June 1940, as
well as preventing them from delivering the coup de gras to the Soviets in
1941.  And they derived from weaknesses in German military theory brought about
by a faulty analysis of the causes of their WWI defeat, and a decided failure
in the Hitler era to link military ends with industrial means.

Yeah, the German economy could have produced far more than it did, but as long
as Hitler ran the country, it wouldn't produce enough to equip the German Army
sufficiently to relieve the stresses on its military approach.  Hitler would
not subject the German people to the stringencies of a wartime economy before
he absolutely had to, and he would never give anyone the power to rationalize
war production before he absolutely had to.  Failure to appreciate these
realities were fundamental strategic errors, and created fatal instabilities in
the German operational concept.  This is why blitzkrieg can only be considered
as nothing more than a theoretical dead end, although its specific features are
very much worth study.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 16:34:29 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: more U-534 information

This just in....(insert sounds of newsroom teletypes)  :-)

COPENHAGEN, Denmark - Salvagers hoping for Nazi documents and treasure
hoisted a German U-boat in "fantastic shape" Monday out of a muddy
seabed where it sank in an Allied attack 48 years ago.

German survivors from the vessel and airmen from the British plane
that bombed it gathered on the Danish island of Anholt for the
recovery, singing war songs together and swapping stories.

Historians have speculated that the U-534, like some other German
submarines seized near the end of the war, carried microfilms and
paintings sent out of Germany in the last days of the Hitler regime.
The vessel's good condition increased chances to recover such items,
if any were aboard.

"It's in fantastic shape, much better than we expected", said
Jonathan Wardlow, a spokesman for the salvagers.  The U-boat's tower
had been damaged by fishing trawlers, but the rest of the 255-foot
submarine, which had sunk stern-first 220 feet deep into the mud,
was nearly intact.

Wardlow said Capt. Finn Lenneman, a Danish Navy explosives specialist
and first man to board the submarine, found shells in the deck lockers
"in excellent condition".  The hull was only slightly corroded and
retained its original gray-brown color.  Salvagers had feared that the
ammunition might have deteriorated and become dangerously unstable.

U-534 was among the most modern German submarines when a Royal Air
Force bomber sank it on May 5, 1945, the day after Nazi troops
surrendered in Denmark, northern Germany, and the Netherlands.  Three
members of the 52-man crew died.

The 1,100 ton vessel was hoisted from the water by two giant cranes,
and Dutch crewmen from the Smit Tak crane company used hand tools to
pry open two deck hatches.

Three quarters of the vessel was filled with water, but the officers'
quarters and radio room were dry, behind watertight hatches closed by
German sailors before they abandoned ship, salvagers said.

Eight German survivors and four airmen from the Liberator bomber that
sank the submarine viewed the hoisting of the wreck.  "I guess I will
have a little bit of excitement", the bomber's navigator, Neville
Baker of Lakewood, Ohio, said before the recovery.

"I was told I would be the first (American) man ever who sank a German
warship and saw it brought up again in my lifetime", said Baker, a
native Briton who took US citizenship.  The other three airmen are
Australians.

The U-534 will be towed by barge to Hirtshals, on the west coast of
Denmark's Jutland peninsula, and turned into a museum.  Salvagers said
it could take three days to disarm and remove explosives.  When the
submarine is declared safe for boarding, historians will search it.

German historian Per Kluever quoted WWII British intelligence sources
as saying 20 German submarines with prominent Nazi officials and
precious goods left Germany in the last days of the Third Reich.
U-534 could be one of them.

A German submarine seized off the eastern United States on May 14, 1945,
held military documents and valuable goods worth $6 million in a secret
double stern.  Kluever said that submarine, trying to reach Japan, also
carried a Nazi general and two Japanese military officers.

No remains were expected to be found.  "There's so little space in a
U-boat that there's no place to hide", said Kluever.  No one was missing
from the crew list and none of the identities was in doubt, he said.

Under salvage agreements, newspaper owner and salvage sponsor Carsten
Ree owns the submarine, but the valuable goods and documents found
inside belong to the Danish state.  A court was expected to rule later
about the final disposition of such goods.

(AP story by Jan M. Olsen)


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Aug 1993 18:01:18 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Rusty,

     In the spirit of trans-Pacific glasnost, I have heard a(n unverified)
report of a young GI being executed/murdered on the spot by his sergeant for
refusing to participate in the massacre of an Okinawan village in 1945.

     I know WAR WITHOUT MERCY alludes to such acts in general terms, but do
you know of any specific, on-the-ground, "at our mercy" incidents of
American atrocities against civilians in the Pacific?

     While our war crimes in the Pacific pale by comparison with the
Japanese, we do have an obligation to acknowledge them, especially if
the Japanese are finally willing to do so.

Lou Coatney,
  Western Illinois University Library

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 22 Aug 1993 to 23 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 19 messages totalling 880 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 24 AUG 41
  2. 2nd Marine Division
  3. Hnet Guide to HNSource at U Kansas
  4. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities (9)
  5. U-534
  6. blitzkrieg...again
  7. Addr: Term (3)
  8. Blitzkrieg...again
  9. TROUBLE: adminb.rferl.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 07:24:00 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 24 AUG 41

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
TUESDAY, 24 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The Army Air Forces
Antisubmarine Command is dedesignated I Bomber Command and reassigned to
the First Air Force after the Army Air Forces and US Navy reach an agree-
ment under which the Army Air Forces withdraws from antisubmarine opera-
tions. During the remainder of Aug 43, the following squadrons cease flying
ASW missions:
  8th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, based at
Miami Army Airfield, Florida but operating from Trinidad,
  14th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing, at Camp
Edwards Army Airfield, Falmouth, Massachusetts,
  24th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing, at
Westover Field, Ayr, Massachusetts, and
  25th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, Jackson-
ville Municipal Airport, Florida.


CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 B-24's and 6 B-25's, escorted
by 22 P-40's and P-38's, bomb airfields at Hankow and Wuchang; 4 B-24's are
lost; they claim 24 enemy interceptors shot down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 86
Part I: An air depot and airfields in France are targetted:
  1. 110 B-17's are dispatched to the Villacoublay Air Depot; 86 hit the
target at 1800-1805 hours; they claim 1-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 64 aircraft
are damaged; casualties are 10 WIA.
  2. 42 B-17's are dispatched to the Conches and Evreux/Fauville Airfields;
22 hit the target at 1844-1858 hours; they claim 0-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft;
1 B-17 is lost and 15 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 9 WIA.
  3. 35 of 36 B-17's fly a diversion without incident.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 86 Part II: 85 B-17's, which had flown to
North Africa after attacking Regensburg, Germany on 17 Aug, are dispatched
to the Bordeaux/Merignac Airfield; 58 hit the target at 1157-1200 hours;
they claim 3-3-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-17's are lost, 2 are damaged
beyond repair and 40 damaged; casualties are 30 MIA. 9 B-17's returned to
North Africa after encountering difficulties.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 33A & 33B: B-26's fly 2 diversions for
the B-17's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit a railroad tunnel
and cruiser offshore at Sibari, tracks and buildings at Castrovillari, and
the town area at Sibari; and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force air-
planes strafe motor transport N of Reggio di Calabria
and provide withdrawal cover for the NATAF fighter-bombers.
  HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Kairouan, Tunisia to Castel-
vetrano, Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 25 B-24's, with fighter escort, bomb Papatura Fa Island and attack
the E shore of Ringa Cove on New Georgia Island. P-39's strafe barges at
Kakasa on Choiseul Island.
  The 23d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
which has been operating from Guadalcanal Island with B-17's since Mar 43,
returns to it's base on Espiritu Santo Island in the New Hebrides Islands
for R&R

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's thoroughly pound Wewak and bomb Salamaua; and B-25's bomb Larat and
barges E of Wotap.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 10:41:00 EDT
From:    "Stephen R. Guilmet (617) 552-4890" <GUILMET@BCVMCMS.BITNET>
Subject: 2nd Marine Division

I have a friend who served with the 2nd Marine Division in WWII.
Recently, he received the medals that he earned, from St. Louis.
I am planning to build a case to display these medals along with
the U.S. flag, Marine Corps flag and 2nd Mar Div patch.  I also
want to have an engraved brass plate made for each of the invasions
that he participated in.  Could someone please supply me with the
dates that the Marines would have been on these islands so I can
include them on the engraving.

        Tarawa  -
        Tinian  -
        Saipan  -
        Okinawa -

I am NOT subscribed to this list.  Please send any correspondence to
me via private E-Mail.  My address is GUILMET@BCVMCMS.

Thank you for any assistance you can give me!

Semper Fi!

Stephen R. Guilmet
Boston College

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 09:11:38 -0500
From:    h-teach listserv mail account <hteach@PAPAYA.WUSTL.EDU>
Subject: Hnet Guide to HNSource at U Kansas

Mod. Note: Here is the HNet Guide to using HNSourse at the University of
Kansas.

     from your mainframe: use TELNET
     telnet   hnsource.cc.ukans.edu
     LOGIN AS history
     YOU GET HNSOURCE:

                           The University of Kansas

  Login as 'kufacts' for  access to the Campus Wide Information System.
           'history' for history network resources
           'ex-ussr' for former Soviet Union info
  login: history

  Enter a terminal type: [vt100]
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +               HNServer              +
             +                                     +
             +    The Central Information Server   +
             +                                     +
             +           FOR HISTORIANS            +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

                  * HOW TO USE THIS SYSTEM

                  * HNSERVER AND THE HISTORY NETWORK

                  * BIBLIOGRAPHY: HYTELNET AND INTERNET GUIDES

                  * RESOURCES: DATA BASES

                  * SCHOLARLY EXCHANGE: DISCUSSION LISTS

                  * NEWS, BOOKS, AND WEATHER

                  * HNSERVER NEWS
      =====


             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                       +
             +   HNServer AND THE HISTORY NETWORK    +
             +                                       +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +


                  * ABOUT HNServer

                  * ABOUT THE HISTORY NETWORK

                  * THE HISTORY NETWORK CHARTER AND ORGANIZATION

                  * ABOUT H-NET

             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +          Research Resources         +
             +          FTP and Gopher Sites       +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

                * Americas and Africa

                * Europe and Asia

                * Services to Educators
                        (under construction. advice accepted. 8^)
                * Bibliographies and Texts

                * Electronic History Journals

                * Software/Shareware FTP archives
      ==============================================
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +         Americas and Africa         +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * RA Mississippi State University History FTP site
                The Mississippi State historical archives (ftp.msstate.edu
                ftp site) is provided as a scholarly service of Mississippi
                State University. Its collection specializes in the Americas
                and Africa.

        * BYRD Marshall University History FTP site
                The history FTP archive on byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152)
                welcomes all types of historical documents, databases, papers,
                reviews or other materials. Most of the material at this time
                focuses on political and military/diplomatic history.

        * CONSTITUTIONAL DOCUMENTS     From Cleveland Freenet
                This data base contains full English-language texts of
                documents relative to to the United States Constitution.

        * WSDB
                Women's Studies Database from the University of Maryland,
                College Park.

        * NAFTA
                Draft of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)
                via the ariel.unm.edu ftp site.

        * Telnet to the U.S. Geographical Database.

        * UT-LANIC
                University of Texas Latin American Information Center

        * Clinton White House
                Clinton White House electronic publications and public
                access e-mail instructions.

 ==============================
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +          Europe and Asia            +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * CLIONET
                CLIONET is a gopher server maintained by the History
                of James Cook University, Australia. It houses the
                electronic journal CLIONET and a data base of 19th-
                century sources for Australian history.

        * COOMBSQUEST
                COOMBSQUEST is an information server maintained by the
                Australian National University, with specializations in
                linguistics prehistory, Oceania, and Aboriginal studies.
                Offers extensive connections to other relevant sites.

         DARTMOUTH DANTE PROJECT....

        * MALIN University of Kansas History FTP site
                MALIN is maintained by the Department of History and the
                Academic Computer Services of the University of Kansas. It
                includes a wide variety of materials for the use of hist-
                orians, primarily on Europe and Asia.

        * USSR ARCHIVES University of Missouri at Kansas City FTP site.
                Databases of archives of several discussion lists relating
                to Soviet and Eastern European history during and after the
                attempted coup of 1991, and other Soviet materials.

        * EX-USSR ARCHIVES University of Kansas FTP site
                Leaders of ex-USSR republics, e-mail addresses to ex-USSR,
                listservers and news sources relating to the nations of the
                former Soviet Union.

        * GHETA  University of Groningen (NL) FTP site
                Groningen Historical Electronic Text Archive is located at
                the Faculty of Arts of the University of Groningen in the
                Netherlands. It is assembling a data-base of indices and
                texts of Dutch historical journals as a continuing project.

        * Holocaust and Fascism Archives
                Victoria FreeNet (select 4-Government Building).

        * ROME REBORN U.S. Library of Congress FTP site
                A large collection of catalogues, lists, descriptive
                materials and graphics files of the recent Library of Con-
                gress/Vatican Library exhibit, "Rome Reborn."

        * WORLD SYSTEMS University of Colorado FTP site
                Contains papers, syllabi, bibliographies and other materials
                for the study of the world systems approach to history and
                economics.

        * RENDANCE
                The Renaissance Dance Archives, containing bibliographies and
                e-texts relating to dance in Renaissance Europe.

        * BIRON The Essex Social Research Council Archive
                Full search facilities for this primarily statistical archive.
                (NOTE:login: biron password: norib>

        * ECHO--European database
                (not yet in full operation)

         ====================================

             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +      Bibliographies and Texts       +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * U.S. National Archives and Records
                Center for Electronic Records (not yet working)

        * Catalogue of Projects in Electronic Text
                Georgetown University Center for Text and Technology

        * GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS (USA)
                A searchable database of U.S. Government publications.

        * PERIODICAL LITERATURE       Offered by CARL
        =====and there's more in HNSERV: explore!======

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 13:25:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

>     I know WAR WITHOUT MERCY alludes to such acts in general terms, but do
>you know of any specific, on-the-ground, "at our mercy" incidents of
>American atrocities against civilians in the Pacific?

I have never found any references to specific acts of this sort, although
as you mentioned, WAR WITHOUT MERCY makes some statements about supposed
incidents.

>     While our war crimes in the Pacific pale by comparison with the
>Japanese, we do have an obligation to acknowledge them, especially if
>the Japanese are finally willing to do so.

I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
directly disobeying orders).  It is clear that events like the
Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
Japanese high Command, but the beheading of the Doolittle's Raiders
may have been the act of an individual commander.

It appears that the massacre of Chinese civilians was a direct policy
of the Japanese command staff.

bill
U of Pitt

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 12:48:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-534

>
> The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
> and if so, what they found.  Except for damage to the tower by fishing
> trawlers, the sub is in nearly intact.

  I imagine the RAF bomber did a little more damage than the trawlers :-).

  Keep us updated on the U-boat, please!


Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 14:10:51 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: blitzkrieg...again

Shawn Robert Woodford writes:
> Contrary to popular myth, there was
> NO such thing as blitzkrieg, at least as defined by an German military
> literature from 1919-1945.  The name blitzkrieg itself is no where to be
> found. It was coined by an American journalist in September 1939.

Hey, you're the one who started all this with your "...with a COMBAT DOCTRINE
better than BLITZKRIEG" comment!   :-)

The term has entered common usage, and refers to what the Germans did in
1939, 1940, and (usually) 1941. Yeah, fuzzy....hence my confussion and
"no they didn't" reply.

Also, perhaps blitzkrieg wasn't really suitable for writting up in field
manuals. Too new/secret/experimental for 1939, and no longer workable by
1942.

I disagree with the comment of under/bad analysis of German WW2 history. It
has been pretty much beaten to death from almost every angle IMO. Otherwise
there is little in Shawn Ws post I'd disagree with. But I do have a few
comments...

> The main lesson the German General Staff brought away from World War I was
> that they failed due to a lack of sufficient resources.

This is also my understanding of why Germany lost. The blockade was nearing
the starvation phase (a major factor in declining German popular support
for the war), coupled with severe battlefield casualties.

> Because Germany could never produce enough tanks to
> fully equip more than about 10% of their army, they had to rely on a way of
> winning that de-emphasized pitched battle.

Yes, unlike the UK which was horseless by late 1939, the Germans relied
primarily on horses until the end. There is a "motorization myth"
surrounding WW2...especially WRT German operations.

[The Germans had two lines of thought on strategy:]
> deep penetrations relying on
> speed and confusion to disrupt the enemy--the cavalry approach; and the
> more orthodox principle of encirclement, battle and annihilation

> the Panzer divisions were set up in
> such a way that maximized maneuver over battle.

Right. It was unrealistic to expect Germany to be able to go entirely the
"cavalry" approach. But if that motorized 10% were kept together (in Pz and
PG divisions), they could try out some of the mobile warfare ideas when
operating as a supplement to the mass of the German army (leg infantry).
The allies were inclined to parcel the tanks/mech out amoung the leg units,
thereby dilluting their effectiveness.

> As the war progressed they
> rarely possessed enough tanks to pack a sufficient wallop...
[plus little SP artillery and mech infantry, so the tanks in the spearhead
fought alone]

BTW, this is a major reason the Pz IVD came out...basically a howitzer tank
for the tank regiments.

> the Panzer divisions were as much tied to railroads for supply as the vast
> numbers of German infantry divisions.
> These factors...
> ...derived from weaknesses in German military theory brought about
> by a faulty analysis of the causes of their WWI defeat, and a decided
> failure in the Hitler era to link military ends with industrial means.

This is where I'm getting confused. Are you saying here the German opinion
that their WW1 defeat was due to a resource shortage was wrong?
(I'd agree with the 2nd half: Hitler's objectives exceeded his means)

It seems to me Germany chose the correct approach: avoid a long war which
it assumed it might well lose again. Germany failed to do so, got the long
war and lost it. But the objective of "blitzkrieg" was to fight a war to
destroy the enemy as soon as possible, before attrition and resource
shortages could make a difference. I'd say this WAS based upon examining
the industrial (and social) means. German's limited raw resources meant
matching the production of a combined enemy was unfeasible.
[example: Pre-Barbarossa, the USSR was a major supplier of oil to Germany.
Not smart to fight a long war with your oil supplier. Hmmm, I guess the
Japanese were thinkng the same thing about long wars.]

IMO, the main problem with this idea was that it didn't work against the
USSR as planned, not that it was a bad idea given the info at hand to the
German General Staff. The intelligence reports on what would be involved
to defeat the USSR were a major blunder. Given historical hindsight, we
can see Germany's mistakes, but I think dismissing the strategic concept
as fatally flawwed is going a bit overboard. Obviously it could work
against some of Germany's enemys.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 13:27:52 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: Term

Can someone tell me what the term FLAK (or FLAC or FLACK) means?
A Vietnam veteran who spent time in Cambodia "spotting targets for
air strikes" told me he was a FLAK (sp?). Is this a new term or
did FLAKs exist in WWII? I assume it is some time of special
forces designation, but he did say he was not a Ranger. Thanks.
***************************************************************
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU
Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 14:00:38 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

bill wrote:
>I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
>were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
>individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
>directly disobeying orders).

I agree with this.

>It is clear that events like the
>Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
>Japanese high Command,

This does not fit in with my understanding of the events at Bataan.
As I remember, that decision was strictly the prerogative of the local
commander.  I also remember there being some discussion that the
deaths were largely due to negligence, rather than specific intent.
Could you provide references for your view?

I'll readily admit that there were plenty of examples of atrocities
that were results of policy decisions high up in Japanese military
circles, but I wasn't under the impression that Bataan was one of
them.

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:16:54 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Bill D writes:
> I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
> were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
> individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
> directly disobeying orders).

Good point. Whatever crimes a few men out in the field do is not directly
the fault of the entire army or its policy. (In fact, it is frequently in
the best interest of the army to punish such war crimes for the purposes
of maintaining disipline.) Failure to investigate/punish known war crimes
makes the army part of the crime.

> It is clear that events like the
> Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
> Japanese high Command, but the beheading of the Doolittle's Raiders
> may have been the act of an individual commander.

Actually, I think this example might be backwards. You can get a lot of
debate about the Bataan Death March. It appears to have been a mistake in
estimating the resources necessary to move the POWs, and their condition.
Not enough food and transport was provide, and the journey was too
strenuous for their weakened condition. But plenty of individual crimes
of sadism occured.

As for the Doolittle raiders, I think it was policy to collect them, try
them as criminals, and (as they were to be found guilty) executed them.
The Chinese civilians were very harshly punished for abetting the escape
of some raiders. I forget the number, but it was like tens of thousands
murdered.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 17:50:43 -0230
From:    Miguel Borges <carlos@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

On Tue, 24 Aug 1993, Lee Short wrote:

> bill wrote:
> >I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
> >were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
> >individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
> >directly disobeying orders).
>
> I agree with this.

I don't.  Not the way it is stated anyway.

So the Nazi leadership is responsible for the death of Jewish civilians,
but the men that actually carried out the orders aren't?  Or am I
mis-reading what you guys mean?


\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /
 \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \(Carlos) Miguel Borges \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/
 /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  carlos@morgan.ucs.mun.ca \  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:53:22 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

'Agreed about the need to differentiate between policy and local impulse.
     On the other hand, principled distinctions can get fuzzy in that kind
  of total war, and it is always hard to tell (afterwards) how high the
  impulse -- or indifference -- was.

Any information would be appreciated.

I hear the new fellow tapped for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is Polish(-
  American).  I wonder what his feelings are about Katyn and the political
  victimization of the officer corps.

Lou Coatney,
  WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:39:47 CDT
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

If my memory hasn't failed me, FLAK means FLugzeug Abwehr Kanone (anti-
aircraft cannon).  That is my ubderstanding of it.  Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:50:11 EDT
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Maybe there are some ex-military men out there who can answer this question
but my assumption was that under war-time conditions, that an commanding
officer has an obligation to control the men and units under his command
and to know of their actions.  I understand that this is not always possible
- especially with individual actions in the field - but I thought that the
"I did not know" or the "I was under orders" defense for the most part has
not been accepted by the nations at large (espcially if the war crimes were
commited by the losing side).
assume) side composed of Serbs and Croats are accussed of the majority of the
An intresting side show will be occuring in the near future when we may have
victorious Serb and Croat "leaders" being tried by the UN for the actions of
"local" commanders and their subordinates.

Sorry to take this subject off-tangent but I am slightly curious.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:00:57 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

In your message of 24 Aug 1993 at 1443 CDT, you write:
> Can someone tell me what the term FLAK (or FLAC or FLACK) means?
> A Vietnam veteran who spent time in Cambodia "spotting targets for
> air strikes" told me he was a FLAK (sp?). Is this a new term or
> did FLAKs exist in WWII? I assume it is some time of special
> forces designation, but he did say he was not a Ranger. Thanks.
> ***************************************************************
> RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU
> Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.
>

The only experience I have had with the term FLAK is the German use of
the term which is an acronym for Flieger Abwehr Kannone (Anti-aircraft
cannon/gun) rather like their PAK - Panzer Abwehr Kannone (Anti-tank
gun) designations.

As for the Viet-Nam war I know there were a number of US Air Force
personnel who were known as FACs (Forward Air Controllers) who
operated in units known as Aerial Port Squadrons or some such.

Hope that helps,
                        Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:11:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Blitzkrieg...again

Boy do I feel stoopid!  Thanks for pointing out the inconsistencies in the line
 of thought in my post Scott.  The e-mail software is so user-unfriendly that
it is difficult to correct one's thoughts when they go down on the screen.

What I would have said re: blitzkrieg had my mind been screwed on straight, is
that the main lesson the GGS got in its post-war analysis of WWI was NOT that
it lost due to faulty strategic decisions resulting in an opposing alliance of
nations with far vaster resources at their disposal.  Rather they concluded
that they had failed to win the war in 1914 and 1918 because their operational
offensives had been just a shade too slow.  (It was the Soviets that concluded
that they suffered defeat because of lack of resources, but that is another
post...)  This conclusion stimulated the thinking that spurred the development
of German inter-war maneuver theory.

Put in less confusing terms, my contention about blitzkrieg is that it was a
concept predicated upon avoiding battle.  Once forced to give battle on equal
or inferior terms (in bad weather, over long distances from supply bases, under
conditions of air inferiority, etc.), the panzers ceased to achieve decisive
operational successes.  This weakness arose from a conceptual tension within
the Panzerwaffe over the best operational approach to adopt--deep penetration
or traditional encirclement.  While the early campaigns of 1939-40 did not over
tax the combat capability of the panzers, the campaign in the Soviet Union
clearly did.  (I would contend that the Polish, French and Balkan campaigns
were all examples of penetration instead of kesselschlacht operations.)

B. H. Liddel Hart described a battle within the German High Command while the
planning for Barbarossa went on.  Guderian and the other panzer commanders
advocated deep penetrations by the panzergruppen to disrupt the Red Army.  The
Dnepr River would serve the same function the English Channel had in the French
Campaign.  At that point, the panzers would forge on to Moscow and other
objectives in the strategic depth while the footbound infantry divisions would
be tasked to complete the destruction of the cut off Soviet forces.   The more
orthodox members of the German High Command, such as Halder, Kluge and
Brauchitsch had visions of the German Army being swallowed up by the Russian
depths, and advocated a more traditional approach that kept the panzergruppen
tied to the following infantry armies, executing a traditioanl German kessel-
schlachten.  After the destruction of the Red Army in European Russia, then
Moscow and other objectives could be taken at leasure.  Of course, Hitler had
hsi own ideas about occupying the economically fertile Ukraine, razing
Leningrad, and starving Moscow.  In the end, Barbarossa was a compromise
between orthodoxy and Hitler.  Guderian tried mightily to drag the rest of the
army with him to Moscow, but was undercut by the lack of proper logistical
preperations for those kind of operations, the inherent limitations of the
Panzerwaffe and Hitler's insistence on encircling Kiev.

I would contend that Barbarossa was lost before it began.  For Guderian's
approach to have worked, the infantry divisions (or a significant portion
thereof) would have to have been motorized, so that they could 1.) provide
sufficient support to the panzer divisions, and 2.)achieve a tempo of advance
fast enough to prevent the panzers from becoming so isolated that the leverage
effect of their advance continued to have an effect on the bypassed Soviets
(like when a lever arm gets too long, it snaps).  There would also have been
the necessity to provide long-range logistical assistance to the panzer
spearheads.  Even then, it would have been a near-run thing.

The orthodox approach would never have won, except in the unlikely circumstance
of complete German economic mobilization.  Then it would have taken perhaps two
or more campaign seasons to defeat the Soviets.  This would have flown in the
 face of Hitler's strategic vision though, and seems very remote.

The compromise obviously failed.  Even had the Germans taken Moscow in December
1941, they would never have been able to hold it.  Stalin could continue to
prosecute the war, even without Allied logistical assistance, and would have
won, though it might have taken a bit longer.  The failure to properly assess
political goals (unconditional victory) in terms of strategic realities (vast
economic inferiority vs. likely opponents) and operational capabilities
(limited capabilites of German Army) brought the Germans to defeat in both
world wars.  In both situations, they tried to solve intractable strategic
odds with a tactical/operational solutions and failed.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 18:19:44 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Miguel Borges wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Aug 1993, Lee Short wrote:
>> bill wrote:
>> >I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
>> >were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
>> >individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
>> >directly disobeying orders).
>>
>> I agree with this.
>
>I don't.  Not the way it is stated anyway.
>
>So the Nazi leadership is responsible for the death of Jewish civilians,
>but the men that actually carried out the orders aren't?  Or am I
>mis-reading what you guys mean?

I think you are.  What we mean is that in nearly every war there have
been examples of individual soldiers who have committed atrocities.
If these atrocities were not encouraged or ordered by their superiors,
then there is little point in viewing the government of their nation
in the same light as the government of a nation which encourages or
orders atrocities as a matter of policy.

Lee

Lee Short   lees@asf.com         This is the sort of English up with which
Software Janitor                 I will not put.
Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
Minneapolis, MN

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 20:30:44 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

>
> As for the Doolittle raiders, I think it was policy to collect them, try
> them as criminals, and (as they were to be found guilty) executed them.
> The Chinese civilians were very harshly punished for abetting the escape
> of some raiders. I forget the number, but it was like tens of thousands
> murdered.

  The figures I've seen were 100,000+. Another failed "object lesson."

> Scott.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 20:52:17 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: TROUBLE: adminb.rferl.org

Hassan, contact me please.
>
> Bad address -- <HASSANS@ADMINB.RFERL.ORG>
> Error -- Nameserver error: Error 0
>

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 21:53:43 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Lest anyone be misled:  I should remind our readers that I very clearly
  did not put (any) war crimes by our people against the Japanese "in the
  same light."  If Lee Short implied otherwise, he might want to re-read
  my original post.

What I am looking for is a case where an American soldier refused orders
  to (participate in a) massacre (of) Japanese civilians on Okinawa (or
  Saipan? -- there, though, I understand we went to strenuous efforts just
  to prevent (families of) Japanese civilians from committing suicide.)

Although I hadn't originally asked for a specific case of on-the-ground
  atrocities against Japanese civilians, that might be a healthy
  reciprocal acknowledgement at that.  Just the furor the prospect is
  causing on this net verifies its significance and an apparent need for
  a two-way conciliatory effort.

Incidentally, I do NOT consider the A-bombs as "atrocity" weapons -- but
  for now let's stick to my original question, can we?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 23 Aug 1993 to 24 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 13 messages totalling 557 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Addr: Term (2)
  2. USAAF 25 AUG 43
  3. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities
  4. Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit" (2)
  5. Lee's response
  6. Japanese war reparations and others
  7. War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita
  8. Internet Survey
  9. TAC: production/blitzkrieg
 10. TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing
 11. U-534

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 06:22:42 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

Richard:

FLAK is the shortened form of the German term for anti-aircraft artillery.

Flug-Abwehr-Kanone (is my spelling correct? I don't have my German-English
dictionary handy)

which in literal translation means aircraft defense cannon.

Hence, the fire put up by anti-aircraft guns by the Germans
was called FLAK by the aircrews.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 07:11:41 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 25 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
WEDNESDAY, 25 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  SE ASIA: Admiral Louis F Mountbatten is appointed Supreme Allied
Commander, Southeast Asia.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-25's, with fighter escort, bomb Kowloon
Docks at Hong Kong.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): US heavy bombers are assigned i
role of bombing important Luftwaffe targets in Operation STARKEY, designed
to contain enemy forces in the west to prevent their transfer to Eastern
Front, and to serve as a dress rehearsal in the Pas de Calais, France area
for the invasion of W Europe. The Allies hope to provoke the Luftwaffe into
a prolonged air battle.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 34A & 34B: Two locations in France are
targetted:
  1. 21 B-26's are dispatched to the power station at Rouen; all hit the
target at 1832 hours; 2 aircraft are damaged.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Tricqueville Airfield; 31 hit the target
at 1834 hours; they claim 1-8-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-26's are damaged.
  HQ 45th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) arrives at Brampton Grange, England from
the US; it will remain at this station until Sep 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): B-24's bomb the marshalling yard
at Foggia, Italy.
  The 566th and 567th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 389th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), which have been operating from Bengasi, Libya with B-24's
since Jul 43, return to their base at Hethel, England.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): Around 135 B-17's
and 140 P-38's attack satellite airfields at Foggia, Italy. Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit trucks S of Sino-
poli, Italy.
  The 414th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
transfers form Pont-du-Fahs to Depienne, Tunisia with B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 13 B-25's, along with 40+ US Navy dive bombers and an escort of
fighter aircraft, pound barge centers at Webster and Ringa Coves on New
Georgia Island. 6 B-24's, along with 24 fighters, hit Kahili Airfield on
Bougainville Island. Other P-40's strafe large motor vessels and a barge in
the NW part of the Slot.
  The 371st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
based on Espiritu Santo in the New Hebrides Islands begins operating from
Guadalcanal Island with B-24's; they will fly their first mission tomorrow.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
almost 100 B-24's, B-25's, and B-17's carry out an hour-long strike against
the Hansa Bay area, Nubia, and Awar, and nearby shipping; and small flights
of B-24's attack Finschhafen and hit a transport off New Hanover Island in
the Bismarck Archipelago. A-20's hit Gasmata Island off New Britain Island;
and B-25's bomb targets on Timor Island.
  HQ 433d Troop Carrier Group arrives at Port Moresby, New Guinea from the
US. They will remain at this station until Oct 44.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 07:44:30 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

I think FLAC might refer to

     Front
     Line
     Air [support]
     Controller

in this context (i.e., Vietnam).

But I am no expert on Vietnam . . .

Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 09:50:19 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Lou Coatney wrote:
>Lest anyone be misled:  I should remind our readers that I very clearly
>  did not put (any) war crimes by our people against the Japanese "in the
>  same light."  If Lee Short implied otherwise, he might want to re-read
>  my original post.

I certainly didn't imply otherwise.  The extent of my original
comments on the subject were "I agree with this".  I made more
extensive comments on Japanese behavior at Bataan.  I don't see how
this could possibly be construed as "implying otherwise."  If you
think that my second post on the subject implied otherwise, I suggest
you reread it.

I feel kind of redundant posting this, but evidently things were not
as clear as I thought they were.

Lee

Lee Short   lees@asf.com         This is the sort of English up with which
Software Janitor                 I will not put.
Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
Minneapolis, MN

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 10:21:03 EST
From:    Eden Steven CPT <ks3763@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit"

Ron Babuka wrote wondering about defenses for officers who commit, or whose
men commit atrocities in the field. I can only speak for the American Army.

"I was only following orders" It is not permissible for an officer to obey any
illegal order. What is an illegal order? Well, should an officer be ordered to
kill prisoners, that order violates the Rules of War under the Geneva
Convention, to which the United STates is a signatory. The officer is not only
permitted to disregard that order, he is obliged to disobey it, and to prevent
others from carrying it out to the best of his ability, and to report the
incident to his chain of command immediately. In short, the "following orders"
defense is no longer allowed.

"I didn't know" If a commander truly did not know that soldiers under his
control had committed a war crime, he cannot, obviously, be held directly
responsible for that crime in a strictly legal sense. However, as a commander,
he is responsible for allowing the conditions to exist that make war crimes
possible (low morale, ignorance of the Law of War, poor leaders, etc.) and
therefore could be punished for the crimes in a non-judicial manner.

I do not know what kind of training the US Army gave its soldiers and officers
about the Laws of War during WWII, but the above reflects current attitudes.

CPT Steve Eden
USMA at West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 11:22:01 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Lee's response

Thanks, Lee.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 11:30:44 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit"

Steve,

     Thank you for your thoughtful response.  Judging from similar input
from "Bear" Barrett on a similar question I raised on VWAR-L, concern about
ethical/legal conduct ofin combat situations is cultivated at and appreciated by
is cultivated at and appreciated at  the Academy.

     This is heartening to see.

     What things were like against the Japanese, after 4 brutal years of
war, is hard for me to speculate.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 14:21:04 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others

>Ron Babuka wrote wondering about defenses for officers who commit, or whose
>men commit atrocities in the field. I can only speak for the American Army.
>
>"I was only following orders" It is not permissible for an officer to obey any
>illegal order. What is an illegal order? Well, should an officer be ordered to
>kill prisoners, that order violates the Rules of War under the Geneva
>Convention, to which the United STates is a signatory. The officer is not only
>permitted to disregard that order, he is obliged to disobey it, and to prevent
>others from carrying it out to the best of his ability, and to report the
>incident to his chain of command immediately. In short, the "following orders"
>defense is no longer allowed.
>
>"I didn't know" If a commander truly did not know that soldiers under his
>control had committed a war crime, he cannot, obviously, be held directly
>responsible for that crime in a strictly legal sense. However, as a commander,
>he is responsible for allowing the conditions to exist that make war crimes
>possible (low morale, ignorance of the Law of War, poor leaders, etc.) and
>therefore could be punished for the crimes in a non-judicial manner.
>
>I do not know what kind of training the US Army gave its soldiers and officers
>about the Laws of War during WWII, but the above reflects current attitudes.
>
>CPT Steve Eden
>USMA at West Point
>

To add on to Steve Eden's excellent reply; at the end of WWII, Japanese
Generals Homma and Yamashita were judged guilty and executed by Douglas
MacArthur for war crimes by their subordinates when any evidence that the
generals knew about them or had any control over them was tenuous at best.
Despite this flaw, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions by a 7-2 vote. So
even if a commander doesn't know about war crimes that occur, there is a legal
precedent to hold him responsible anyway.

                                        LTC Conrad Crane
                                        Also from USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 14:34:55 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

A sobering amplification, Conrad.  But are you saying the trials and
  executions of H and Y for ultimate responsibility -- knowing or not --
  was a VALID precedent?

Pardon my tossing you a "live one" -- it WAS the Supreme One who put them
  on/in the dock.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 15:52:50 -0400
From:    William Milheim <WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Internet Survey

                              INTERNET SURVEY

                     Adele F. Bane <AFB2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
                 William D. Milheim <WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU>
              The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley
________________________________________________________________________________
This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the
Internet that are most used by the academic community.  You have been chosen as
a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate.
Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published
later this year.  Please answer all survey questions.
________________________________________________________________________________

INTERNET INSIGHTS:  A Survey

We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself:

        How many years of computer experience do you have?      _____
        How long have you used e-mail of any type?              _____
        How long have you been an Internet user?                _____

Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified.  They are
electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer.  An
estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily.
This survey explores the use of each of these services.

1.  E-Mail Use:  How often do you make these connections?

           (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Private Email:                                  _____

                Discussion group(s):                            _____
                        (Specify)

                Usenet (or Netnews)                             _____

                Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s):           _____
                        (Specify)



2.  Telnet Use:  How often do you connect to remote databases?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Games/Simulations:              _____
                Library Catalogs:               _____
        .       Specialized Databases:          _____


2a.  How frequently do you connect these Internet sources:

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                American Mathematical Society BBS               _____
                American Psychological Assn.                    _____
                CARL                                            _____
                CITADEL                                         _____
                Cleveland FreeNet                               _____
                Dartmouth Dante                                 _____
                Dialog                                          _____
                Dow-Jones News Retrieval                        _____
                Dranet                                          _____
                EDIN                                            _____
                EPA                                             _____
                ERIC                                            _____
                FEDIX/MOLIS                                     _____
                GenBank                                         _____
                Geographic Name Server                          _____
                International Centre for Distance Learning      _____
                ISAAC                                           _____
                Lexis                                           _____
                Market/Business Report                          _____
                National Education BBS                          _____
                Netfind                                         _____
                Nexis                                           _____
                Oceanic Information Center                      _____
                OCLC                                            _____
                PENpages                                        _____
                RLIN                                            _____
                SpaceLink                                       _____
                STIS                                            _____
                TC Forum                                        _____
                Weather Underground                             _____
                Webster Dictionary                              _____

                Other  (Please specify):


3.  FTP Use:  How often do you download files from FTP archive sites?

           (Insert appropriate number beside each item)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Computers and Academic Freedom                  _____
                EASI                                            _____
                History                                         _____
                LIBSOFT                                         _____
                Lyric and Discography                           _____
                NASA                                            _____
                Online Libraries Directory                      _____
                Science Education                               _____
                SIMTEL20                                        _____
                SUMEX-AIM                                       _____
                U.S. Supreme Court Decisions                    _____
                Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives          _____

                Other (Please Specify):


4.      Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet.
        How often do you use these network guides?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Archie                                          _____
                Campus-wide Information Systems                 _____
                Gopher                                          _____
                WAIS (Wide-area information servers)            _____
                WWW (WorldWideWeb)                              _____
                Veronica                                        _____
                HYTELNET                                        _____
                Other (Please specify):


Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users.  Please comment on
the following:

5.      The importance of the Internet to your work?



6.      Advantages the Internet offers over other resources?



7.      Barriers to using the Internet?



8.      Your most memorable use of the Internet?



9  These questions will help us interpret the results of this study:

        Title:  ________________________________________
        Affiliation:  __________________________________
        Discipline:  ___________________________________
        Research Interest(s):____________________________________
        _________________________________________________________

Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU
by September 3, 1993.

If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your
e-mail address here:  _____________________.


            :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 16:30:04 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: production/blitzkrieg

 From: "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
> I think WW2 German industry, with a good supply of raw resources, an
> undamaged transport system, and lack of bomber harrasment, could have been
> double what it was. Thus production losss > gun losses. It comes down to
> what you think German industry could have acheived.

I recently posted this info to the Usenet newsgroup alt.war and thought
it might shed some light on how the German economy may have fared if
there had been no strategic bombing.  Despite strategic bombing, Germany
managed to nearly double its armor production for each year after 1942
(once its economy was converted to a war footing).  Also note that the
quality of the types of AFVs produced was better than their predecessors.

The question remains: Would production figures have been significantly
higher if there had been no strategic bombing campaign?

Below is a table of German armor production [1]:

Type                              1940   1941   1942   1943   1944
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Pzkw I (total built from 1933-41) 2000      0      0      0      0
Pzkw II (total prod 1936-1940)   ~1000    233    306     77      7
Pzkw III                           895   1845   2555    349      0
Pzkw 38(t) (Czech)                 275    698    195     87    125
Pzkw IV                            280    480    965   3073   3366
Pzkw V                               0      0      0   1850   3964
Pzkw VI Tiger I                      0      0     78    647    623
Pzkw VI King Tiger                   0      0      0      0    379
-------------------------------------------------------------------
StuG III/StuG IV                   184    550    828   3319   7628
JgPz 38                              0      0      0      0   1598
JgPz V                               0      0      0      0    215
JgPz VI                              0      0      0      2     51
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                           ~4634   3806   4927   9404  17956

[1] "Deutsche Panzer: 1917-1945", Uwe Feist, Aero Publishers, 1978, pg. 69
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 17:53:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing

Is Mr. Barone's post a signal for open-season on WWII Strategic Bombing?


Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 20:36:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.COPLEX.COM>
Subject: U-534

> The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
> and if so, what they found.  Except for damage to the tower by fishing

Network News reported the German sub was only partially searched as of
the 25th and so far the most important find consisted of 100 bottles
of German wine!  A coupe of other items also, but must have been even
less important.  Can't remember what they were.
---
 . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 24 Aug 1993 to 25 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 25 Aug 1993 to 26 Aug 1993
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Status: O

There are 25 messages totalling 1079 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen: U-534 Details of Items Found
  2. U-534 (2)
  3. Internet Survey (4)
  4. USAAF 26 AUG 43
  5. TAC: production/blitzkrieg
  6. War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita (4)
  7. <No subject given>
  8. TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing (2)
  9. U-boat in Denmark info
 10. TAC/STRAT: WWII Bombing
 11. weap: destroiers
 12. world war II (2)
 13. your mail
 14. WEAP: Amazingly boring Pzkw 38(t) ramblings
 15. Internet Survey <an apology>
 16. POLISH AIR INFO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 06:55:00 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Gen: U-534 Details of Items Found

I didn't keep the post, but someone asked what was found in
U-534.

                       (c) United Press International.
              May be reproduced in hard copy only with credit to
                         United Press International.


Wednesday 25-Aug-93 09:15 AM

Wine, condoms and torpedoes found aboard salvaged U-boat


BONN (UPI) _ Bomb disposal experts found torpedoes, wine and
condoms aboard a salvaged German U-boat but saw no sign of the
fabulous treasures some believe may be aboard, a spokesmen for
the salvage operation said Wednesday.

The spokesman said Danish navy bomb disposal experts found the
torpedoes during an initial probe into parts of the vessel. He
said no one has seen the U-boat's hold yet.

``Two bottles of wine were found in the forward torpedo room. Now
we know it is the right U-boat, as the navigator can remember the
bottles,'' said Jonathan Wardlow, a spokesman for Copenhagen
publisher Karsten Ree, who is funding the $3.6 million salvage
operation.

Speaking by telephone from Anholt Island, halfway between Sweden
and Denmark, Wardlow said 100 bottles of wine were believed to be
aboard. A box of condoms also was found during the search of the
submarine.

``The U-boat was the last to leave the (French port of) Bordeaux.
The crew ransacked the stores before leaving, and when they
opened the box later they found it contained condoms,'' Wardlow
said.


The U-534 was pulled 220 feet (67 m) to the surface of the
Kattegat Sea, 13 miles (20 km) northeast of Anholt Island Monday.
Operations were delayed Tuesday because the subamarine was
weighed down by mud and clay wedged between its inner and outer
hulls.

Henrik Laier, another spokesman for the salvage operation, said
that after the Danish experts probed the inside of the boat
``they found no trace of any treasure. They haven't seen anything
other than the torpedo chambers and bits of equipment such as
shells and ammunition cases.''

He said the German submarine was placed on a submerged barge and
probably will be towed into dry dock Friday after the torpedoes
have been disarmed.

The U-boat was sunk by depth charges fired by a British Royal Air
Force bomber May 5, 1945, four days before Germany's
unconditional surrender. The submarine was sailing from Kiel on
the northern German coast while fleets of other German U-boats
were scuttled in the closing stages of the war.

Although survivors of the sinking have said the U-boat contained
only normal supplies, there has been intense speculation over its
cargo, including claims that gold and treasures stolen by the
[NAZIS], secret weapons plans and even the body of Adolf Hitler's
mistress, Eva Braun, were aboard.


--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 10:23:17 +0200
From:    Mike Hoffmann <mike@HORUS.MCH.SNI.DE>
Subject: Re: U-534

In message <199308260237.AA05834@thoth> you write:
>Network News reported the German sub was only partially searched as of
>the 25th and so far the most important find consisted of 100 bottles
>of German wine!  A coupe of other items also, but must have been even
>less important.  Can't remember what they were.

Less important? Why, there was a whole box of condomes on board!

:-)
Mike

--
Mike Hoffmann - Internet Administrator, Siemens-Nixdorf AG, SNI SU AP 1123
INTERNET: Mike.Hoffmann@mch.sni.de
"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 07:00:30 EST
From:    Eden Steven CPT <ks3763@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey

>                              INTERNET SURVEY
>
>                     Adele F. Bane <AFB2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
>                 William D. Milheim <WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU>
>              The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley
>______________________________________________________________________________
__
>This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of th
e
>Internet that are most used by the academic community.  You have been chosen a
s
>a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate.
>Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be publishe
d
>later this year.  Please answer all survey questions.
>______________________________________________________________________________
__
>
>INTERNET INSIGHTS:  A Survey
>
>We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself:
>
>        How many years of computer experience do you have?      _10____
>        How long have you used e-mail of any type?              _2____
>        How long have you been an Internet user?                _1____
>
>Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified.  They are
>electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer.  An
>estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily.
>This survey explores the use of each of these services.
>
>1.  E-Mail Use:  How often do you make these connections?
>
>           (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:)
>
>        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                Private Email:                                  _6____
>
>                Discussion group(s):                            _6____
>                        (Specify)
>
>                Usenet (or Netnews)                             _1____
>
>                Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s):           _1____
>                        (Specify)
>
>
>
>2.  Telnet Use:  How often do you connect to remote databases?
>
>           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                Games/Simulations:              _2____
>                Library Catalogs:               _2____
>        .       Specialized Databases:          _2____
>
>
>2a.  How frequently do you connect these Internet sources:
>
>           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                American Mathematical Society BBS               __1___
>                American Psychological Assn.                    __1___
>                CARL                                            __1___
>                CITADEL                                         __1___
>                Cleveland FreeNet                               __1___
>                Dartmouth Dante                                 __1___
>                Dialog                                          __1___
>                Dow-Jones News Retrieval                        __1___
>                Dranet                                          __1___
>                EDIN                                            __1___
>                EPA                                             __1___
>                ERIC                                            __1___
>                FEDIX/MOLIS                                     __1___
>                GenBank                                         __1___
>                Geographic Name Server                          __1___
>                International Centre for Distance Learning      __1___
>                ISAAC                                           __1___
>                Lexis                                           __1___
>                Market/Business Report                          __1___
>                National Education BBS                          __1___
>                Netfind                                         __1___
>                Nexis                                           __1___
>                Oceanic Information Center                      __1___
>                OCLC                                            __3___
>                PENpages                                        __1___
>                RLIN                                            __1___
>                SpaceLink                                       __1___
>                STIS                                            __1___
>                TC Forum                                        __1___
>                Weather Underground                             __1___
>                Webster Dictionary                              __1___
>
>                Other  (Please specify):
>
>
>3.  FTP Use:  How often do you download files from FTP archive sites?
>
>           (Insert appropriate number beside each item)
>
>        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                Computers and Academic Freedom                  __1___
>                EASI                                            __1___
>                History                                         __1___
>                LIBSOFT                                         __1___
>                Lyric and Discography                           __1___
>                NASA                                            __1___
>                Online Libraries Directory                      __1___
>                Science Education                               __1___
>                SIMTEL20                                        __1___
>                SUMEX-AIM                                       __1___
>                U.S. Supreme Court Decisions                    __1___
>                Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives          __1___
>
>                Other (Please Specify):
>
>
>4.      Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet.
>        How often do you use these network guides?
>
>           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                Archie                                          __1___
>                Campus-wide Information Systems                 __1__
>                Gopher                                          __2___
>                WAIS (Wide-area information servers)            __1___
>                WWW (WorldWideWeb)                              __1___
>                Veronica                                        __1___
>                HYTELNET                                        __1___
>                Other (Please specify):
>
>
>Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users.  Please comment o
n
>the following:
>
>5.      The importance of the Internet to your work?   Helpful but not vital
>
>
>
>6.      Advantages the Internet offers over other resources?
>
>         Always available at my desk, a chance to search widely for research
materials
>
>7.      Barriers to using the Internet?
>
>        Ignorance of computers - Internet is not user friendly
>
>8.      Your most memorable use of the Internet?
>
>
>
>9  These questions will help us interpret the results of this study:
>
>        Title:  ________Assisstant Professor________________________________
>        Affiliation:  __USMA at West Point________________________________
>        Discipline:  ___History________________________________
>        Research Interest(s):__19th Century European
Warfare__________________________________
>        _________________________________________________________
>
>Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU
>by September 3, 1993.
>
>If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your
>e-mail address here:  _____________________.
>
>
>            :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :)
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 07:15:28 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 26 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
THURSDAY, 26 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, the Eleventh Air
Force's striking power shrinks rapidly as the the following squadrons are
ordered to prepare for departure to the Zone of Interior (ZI):
  21st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), on
Umnak Island with B-24's,
  36th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 28th Composite Group, on Amchitka
Island with B-24's,
  73d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 28th Composite Group, on Amchitka
Island with B-25's, and
  406th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 41st Bombardment Group (Medium), at
Elmendorf Field, Anchorage, with B-25's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 15 B-24's, with an escort of 17 fighters,
bomb Kowloon Docks at Hong Kong; 5 Japanese interceptors are shot down. 5
B-25's, supported by 11 P-40's, bomb Tien Ho Airfield at Canton, China; in
a battle with enemy interceptors 1 P-40 is lost; the B-25's and P-40's
claim 5 Zekes downed.
  In China, the 449th Fighter Squadron is activated at Kunming and is
assigned to the 51st Fighter Group. The squadron forms at Lingling and
begins training with P-38's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command Mission
35: 36 B-26's are dispatched to Caen/Carpiquet Airfield, France; all hit
the target at 1846 hours; 1 B-26 is damaged beyond repair when it crashes
on landing.
  HQ 67th Fighter Wing arrives at Walcot Hall, England from the US. The
wing will remain at this station until Oct 45.
  HQ 20th Fighter Group arrives at Kings Cliffe, England from the US. The
group will remain at this station until Oct 45.
  The 359th and 360th Fighter Squadrons, 356th Fighter Group, arrive at
Goxhill, England from the US with P-47's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): The 316th Troop Carrier Group
and it's 36th, 37th, 44th and 45th Troop Carrier Squadrons with C-47's are
transferred to the Twelfth Air Force.
  The 328th, 329th, 330th, and 409th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 93d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), which have been operating from Bengasi, Libya
since Jun 43 with B-24's, return to their base at Hardwick, England.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): The Royal Air Force
(RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF) is assigned to the Northwest African Tactical
Air Force (NATAF), along with US units of the Ninth Air Force which have
been an operational part of DAF and Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force
(NATBF).
  In Italy, 80+ Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's, with
P-38 escort bomb Capua Airfield; 100+ fighter-escorted medium bombers hit
Grazzanise Airfield and satellite field; P-40's bomb Carloforte on San
Pietro Island and strafe the S part of Sardinia; and NATAF medium and light
bombers bomb targets on the toe of Italy, including the railroad junction
at Locri and gun positions at Reggio di Calabria and Villa San Giovanni.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 11 B-25's and 50+ US Navy dive bombers, escorted by fighters,
pound AA positions and barges at Ringa and Webster Coves on New Georgia
Island and at Nusatuva Island; P-40's strafe 2 large motor boats and a
100-foot (30.5 m) steam vessel off Ganongga Island; 15 B-24's bomb Papatura
Ite and supply areas on Papatura Fa Island; 15 B-24's, with fighter escort,
bomb Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island; and P-39's strafe buildings on
Gizo Island and at Kolulavabae Inlet.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 07:44:59 CDT
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: production/blitzkrieg

I saw something that suprised me in the table of vehicle production.
It showed Pzkw. 38 (t) production into 1944.  I thought that in the '43
time frame the Germans started converting their 38 (t)'s into Marders, a
nd Hetzers.  I saw the production figures for the 38 (t) under the Assau
lt Gun area.  The production that late seems wierd to me.  If they made
these vehicles that late--what were they used for???  These vehicles wer
very obsolete by 1942--why would they continue making them for 2 years,
if not to make chassis for other vehicles like the Hetzer and Marder??

I have a personal interest in the 38 (t) chassis because a guy in my Wor
ld War II reenactment unit, the 11th Panzer, has a real Hetzer.  Believe
me--there is nothing like the feeling of running along side her while
supporting an attack.  The ground shakes, and allied reenactors run, eve
n though the only thing the Hetzer can do is hurt thier pride.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 09:02:00 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>A sobering amplification, Conrad.  But are you saying the trials and
>  executions of H and Y for ultimate responsibility -- knowing or not --
>  was a VALID precedent?
>
>Pardon my tossing you a "live one" -- it WAS the Supreme One who put them
>  on/in the dock.
>
>Lou
>

Lou,
     While most coverage of the Homma-Yamashita trials notes that two Associate
Supreme Court Justices called the proceedings "legalized lynchings", the same
accounts normally fail to mention that seven other justices supported the final
verdicts.  Obviously there were many factors of timing and circumstance that
made the trials unique, but the reality for all military commanders is that the
legal precedent is on the books, and could be used again.  If you get a chance
to read the majority opinion of "In re Yamashita", you'll see that there was a
legal basis for the verdict, though the logic does seem harsh or convoluted at
times.  The bottom line is that commanders are responsible to take all possible
reasonable actions to insure that war crimes will not occur in their command.

                                             Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 08:31:21 EST
From:    Don Layton <HILAYTO@RUBY.INDSTATE.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

    A colleague of mine is working on a biography Edwin Hubble.  In
his research he came across a letter which stated that a German WWII
submarine had been captured on Chesapeake Bay during WWII.  On board
were German agents whose task it was to go ashore and kill Hubble.

    This sounded preposterous to my colleague and to me as well.  Has
anyone else heard that story?  Is there any possibility that this
actually happened and has simiply been covered up?  I would
appreciate any responses or reactions to this tale.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 09:37:23 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing

 From: Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>:
> Is Mr. Barone's post a signal for open-season on WWII Strategic Bombing?

Well, actually, I was hoping for rational discourse on the subject
since I really haven't formed my own conclusions on this topic.  :-)
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Oh, man, don't hit me with those negative waves so early in the morning!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 09:59:45 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing

>Is Mr. Barone's post a signal for open-season on WWII Strategic Bombing?

I hope not...its an escapee from ALT.WAR where I was unwise enough
to voice an unpopular opinion about "best tank of WW2" based in
part on ease/cost of production...whoa the flames from Panther
fans and Sherman haters!  :-)

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 09:45:28 CDT
From:    John Hirvela <John=Hirvela%EMC=Srvc%Eng=Hou@BANGATE.COMPAQ.COM>
Subject: U-boat in Denmark info

Cross posted w/o permission. cheers, john

To:             Multiple,recipients,of,list,SCUBA-L
                <SCUBA-L@BROWNVM.brown.edu>
Cc:
Bcc:
From:           Lauri P R{ty <praty@VIPUNEN.HUT.FI>
Subject:        Re: Uboat in Denmark
Date:           Wednesday, August 25, 1993 15:48:57 CDT
Attach:
Certify:        N
Forwarded by:

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



U534 was on a escort mission escorting several XXI class german boats
to Bergen. It was the FLAK (anti-aircraft artillery) boat. It was sunk
as it protected the others, which dived and got away.

U-534 (NOLLAU) WAS ON A STANDARD MISSION WHEN IT WAS SUNK.

I dived the boat 2.8.1993, a day before salvage. To my knowledge no
team has dived it after 1988, when a german sport diver was killed.

praty&rraty
----

PSK KUPLA: WE GO IN, WE DELIVER, WE COME OUT.


------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 10:55:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: TAC/STRAT: WWII Bombing

Whoa dudes, chill!  No dis intended...

Shawn Robert Woodford
HAL9000@KSUVM.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 12:50:23 BRA
From:    "Silvio E.G. Melo" <COV90105@UFRJ.BITNET>
Subject: Re: weap: destroiers

      Larry

      I need anyone informations about this ships. All informations is welcome.

Silvio
      P.S.

      I have making my master degree, and only come to university once a week,
and my answers is also only a week.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 16:33:44 -0400
From:    CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET
Subject: world war II

Greeting from OHIO WESLEYAN! I would like enter a discussion with you
on WWII, however I do not know how to star. Please contact me back and
give some ideas on discussion topics.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 11:22:37 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail

Don Layton writes:
|->
|->     A colleague of mine is working on a biography Edwin Hubble.  In
|-> his research he came across a letter which stated that a German WWII
|-> submarine had been captured on Chesapeake Bay during WWII.  On board
|-> were German agents whose task it was to go ashore and kill Hubble.
|->
|->     This sounded preposterous to my colleague and to me as well.  Has
|-> anyone else heard that story?  Is there any possibility that this
|-> actually happened and has simiply been covered up?  I would
|-> appreciate any responses or reactions to this tale.

        This seems extremely ridiculous. Why would anyone want to kill
Hubble? The older generation of astronomers, trained in the accurate,
19th century observing techniques, thought that Hubble was
partially incompetent and that the over-reliance on photographic
techniques would ruin "true" astronomy. BUT...nobody I know of, Nazi
or not, wanted him dead.
        Also, where's the submarine??? Why should it's capture be
secret now?
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 12:48:21 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>Lou,
>    While most coverage of the Homma-Yamashita trials notes that two Associate
>Supreme Court Justices called the proceedings "legalized lynchings", the same
>accounts normally fail to mention that seven other justices supported the
>final verdicts.
>Obviously there were many factors of timing and circumstance that made
>the trials unique,

Like the fact that MacArthur *somehow* managed to pick out for trial
the Japanese commander who took the Philippines from him and the one
who defended the Philippines against him?  Even though their war
crimes were tenuous at best, and there were plenty of Japanese who
committed blatant war crimes who were left unprosecuted?

I wouldn't call that "unique", I'd call it "vindictive".

Lee


Lee Short   lees@asf.com         This is the sort of English up with which
Software Janitor                 I will not put.
Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
Minneapolis, MN

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 14:44:24 CDT
From:    Brett Person <person@PLAINS.NODAK.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-534

>
> In message <199308260237.AA05834@thoth> you write:
> >Network News reported the German sub was only partially searched as of
> >the 25th and so far the most important find consisted of 100 bottles
> >of German wine!  A coupe of other items also, but must have been even
> >less important.  Can't remember what they were.
>
> Less important? Why, there was a whole box of condomes on board!
>
> :-)
> Mike
>
> --

Ok, so is there any serious speculation as to why a U Boat would be carrying
a cargo like this?  I mean, the condoms I can understand. but the wine? :-)
Maybe they were planning a party?
>

--
Brett Person
Guest Account
North Dakota State University
person@plains.nodak.edu || person@plains.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 16:22:40 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: world war II

>
> Greeting from OHIO WESLEYAN! I would like enter a discussion with you
> on WWII, however I do not know how to star. Please contact me back and
> give some ideas on discussion topics.
>
It was a BIG war. What are YOUR interests? I'm a naval hysterian myself :-).

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 17:35:06 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>>Obviously there were many factors of timing and circumstance that made
>>the trials unique

>Like the fact that MacArthur *somehow* managed to pick out for trial
>the Japanese commander who took the Philippines from him and the one
>who defended the Philippines against him?

Pick out the two worst/most-famous war crimes comitted by the Japanese
against US subjects. Lets see...
1) the Bataan Death March, and
2) the destruction of Manila (after Warsaw, the most damaged major city of
   WW2) and massacre of civilians by Japanese naval troops.
That "somehow" is plain to me: common sense.

>Even though their war
>crimes were tenuous at best, and there were plenty of Japanese who
>committed blatant war crimes who were left unprosecuted?

Most of the underlings who actually committed the crimes were dead (I
don't think there was a single prisoner taken of the naval troops in
Manila). Pretty much the only folks realistically available to prosecute
soon after the war were the leaders.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 16:46:56 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

Good post, Scott.  Also, MacArthur had the power and prestige to make sure
  that those he believed had hurt the people he cared about  were not going
  to be let off the hook  like some others were.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 17:00:31 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Amazingly boring Pzkw 38(t) ramblings

 From: Tim Scherrer:
> I saw something that surprised me in the table of vehicle production.
> It showed Pzkw. 38 (t) production into 1944.  I thought that in the '43
> time frame the Germans started converting their 38 (t)'s into Marders,
> and Hetzers.

Looking more closely through the Uwe Fiest book where I found the
info, it seems that the chart for Pzkw 38(t) includes chassis built
for self-propelled artillery and anti-aircraft variants.

Before I go any further, I should give a little detail on the book.
The book, "Deutsche Panzer: 1917-1945" is a pictorial of every single
type and ausf of German tank produced in that period (it even has a
listing for the Kw Nb.Fz, which was a real boat, of which only five
were built).  There is no write-up; only captions to the numerous
photos and vehicle specifications and production numbers and some
organizational info.

With that in mind, taking a closer look kind of confuses things!  For
the Pzkw 38(t), the manufacturer, Praga, produced approximately 1500
vehicles from 1937 to 1942.  The Pzjg 38 76.2 PAK 36(r), Marder III,
was also produced by Praga in 1942.  No production values are listed,
but a caption mentions 344 were deployed in April 1942.  There were
418 Pzjg 38 75 PAK 40/3, Marder, vehicles produced in 1942 and 1943
by Praga.  There were 1577 Hetzers, JgPz 38(t), built between 1943
and 1945 by Praga and Skoda.  The chart I sent out yesterday indicated
that 1598 Hetzers were built in 1944 alone!  And this is from the
same book!

The FLAK variation was called the 2cm FLAK 38 L/55 Auf Sf. 38(t).
No nickname is given.  162 were built by Praga in 1943 and 1944.

The Bison, 15cm sIG 33/1 Auf. Sf. 38, Ausf H and M were the SPA
variant.  370 were built in 1942 and 1943 by Praga.  Both the Ausf
H and M had the 15 cm sIG 33/1.  It looks like the H had the gun
mounted forward while the M had it mounted toward the rear.  As a
result, the superstructures differ greatly.  The superstructure of
an M looks similar to a Wespe with a shorter gun.

Totaling these production numbers indicates around 4000 Pzkw 38(t)
chassis were produced between 1937 and 1945.  The chart indicates
that 2978 were built from 1940 to 1944.  Some of the discrepancy
might be accounted for by assuming that the missing 1000 were produced
before 1940 or in 1945.  Adding to the discrepancy, however, is the
unknown number of Marder IIIs that were produced (I assumed 344 which
was the deployment for one particular month).

Anyway, to answer Tim's question, they were still cranking out Pzkw 38(t)
chassis after 1942 for the specialized armored vehicles.

Type                              1940   1941   1942   1943   1944  Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pzkw 38(t) (Czech)                 275    698    195     87    125   1380
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
JgPz 38                              0      0      0      0   1598   1598
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total                              275    698    195      87  1723   2978
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
This, gentlemen, is my counterpart, General Vogel.  When I look at his
face, I see a loser.  I'm sitting in his headquarters; I'm drinking his
wine; hell, I even have one of his broads hanging around here somewhere.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 18:27:08 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey

========================== vest@alpha.acast.nova.edu=========================
= Steven Vest: Electronic Reference Librarian: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL  =


On Wed, 25 Aug 1993, William Milheim wrote:

>                               INTERNET SURVEY
>
>                      Adele F. Bane <AFB2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
>                  William D. Milheim <WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU>
>               The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the
> Internet that are most used by the academic community.  You have been chosen as
> a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate.
> Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published
> later this year.  Please answer all survey questions.
> ________________________________________________________________________________
>
> INTERNET INSIGHTS:  A Survey
>
> We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself:
>
>         How many years of computer experience do you have?      _10+____
>         How long have you used e-mail of any type?              _5yrs____
>         How long have you been an Internet user?                _3yrs____
>
> Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified.  They are
> electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer.  An
> estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily.
> This survey explores the use of each of these services.
>
> 1.  E-Mail Use:  How often do you make these connections?
>
>            (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:)
>
>         1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>         2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>         3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                 Private Email:                                  _6____
>
>                 Discussion group(s):                            __6___
>                         (Specify)
>
>                 Usenet (or Netnews)                             _6____
>
>                 Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s):           _2____
>                         (Specify)
>
>
>
> 2.  Telnet Use:  How often do you connect to remote databases?
>
>            (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>         1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>         2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>         3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                 Games/Simulations:              __1___
>                 Library Catalogs:               __4___
>         .       Specialized Databases:          __2___
>
>
> 2a.  How frequently do you connect these Internet sources:
>
>            (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>         1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>         2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>         3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                 American Mathematical Society BBS               _1____
>                 American Psychological Assn.                    _1____
>                 CARL                                            _2____
>                 CITADEL                                         _1____
>                 Cleveland FreeNet                               _4____
>                 Dartmouth Dante                                 _1____
>                 Dialog                                          _5____
>                 Dow-Jones News Retrieval                        _1____
>                 Dranet                                          _1____
>                 EDIN                                            _1____
>                 EPA                                             _1____
>                 ERIC                                            _1____
>                 FEDIX/MOLIS                                     _1____
>                 GenBank                                         _1____
>                 Geographic Name Server                          _1____
>                 International Centre for Distance Learning      _1____
>                 ISAAC                                           _1____
>                 Lexis                                           _1____
>                 Market/Business Report                          _1____
>                 National Education BBS                          _1____
>                 Netfind                                         _1____
>                 Nexis                                           _1____
>                 Oceanic Information Center                      _1____
>                 OCLC                                            _1____
>                 PENpages                                        _1____
>                 RLIN                                            _1____
>                 SpaceLink                                       _1____
>                 STIS                                            _1____
>                 TC Forum                                        _1____
>                 Weather Underground                             _1____
>                 Webster Dictionary                              _1____
>
>                 Other  (Please specify):
>
>
> 3.  FTP Use:  How often do you download files from FTP archive sites?
>
>            (Insert appropriate number beside each item)
>
>         1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>         2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>         3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                 Computers and Academic Freedom                  __1___
>                 EASI                                            __1___
>                 History                                         __1___
>                 LIBSOFT                                         __1___
>                 Lyric and Discography                           __1___
>                 NASA                                            __1___
>                 Online Libraries Directory                      __1___
>                 Science Education                               __1___
>                 SIMTEL20                                        __1___
>                 SUMEX-AIM                                       __1___
>                 U.S. Supreme Court Decisions                    __1___
>                 Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives          __1___
>
>                 Other (Please Specify):
>
>
> 4.      Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet.
>         How often do you use these network guides?
>
>            (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)
>
>         1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
>         2=A few times                   5=Once a week
>         3=About once a month            6=More than once a week
>
>                 Archie                                          _2____
>                 Campus-wide Information Systems                 _2____
>                 Gopher                                          _2____
>                 WAIS (Wide-area information servers)            _2____
>                 WWW (WorldWideWeb)                              _2____
>                 Veronica                                        _4____
>                 HYTELNET                                        _____
>                 Other (Please specify):
>
>
> Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users.  Please comment on
> the following:
>
> 5.      The importance of the Internet to your work?
              Very>
>
>
> 6.      Advantages the Internet offers over other resources?
              Immediacy>
>
>
> 7.      Barriers to using the Internet?
              Poor editors.  Lack of standardization of command structure.>
>
>
> 8.      Your most memorable use of the Internet?
>
             >
>
> 9  These questions will help us interpret the results of this study:
>
>         Title:  Head, Off Campus Libray Services_________
>         Affiliation:  Nova University____
>         Discipline:  _Academic Library___
>         Research Interest(s):_Too many to list.______
>         _________________________________________________________
>
> Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU
> by September 3, 1993.
>
> If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your
> e-mail address here:  _____________________.
>
>
>             :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 18:42:34 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey <an apology>

My apologies for posting my first response to the list instead of to the
correct address.  Mea Culpa.

Steven



========================== vest@alpha.acast.nova.edu=========================
= Steven Vest: Electronic Reference Librarian: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL  =

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 18:49:32 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey

How do I fill out the survey.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Aug 1993 19:48:50 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey

Send this to the originator, not the list! Only the fact that it came
from a resonably legit school kept me from sending a lightning bolt.
I really hate junk mail, especially when the sender doesn't have the
courtesy to ask the listowner first.

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 13:35:38 +1000
From:    Physics1 Student Records <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: POLISH AIR INFO

While the subject of strategic bombing is topical I would like an answer to the
following.
Which Polish squadrons under British command were used at the bombing of Monte
Cassino ?
Does anyone have a list of Polish casualties from the above bombing ?
   Any answers or a point in the right direction would be appreciated.
   On the general side is there a site or archive I can access to find info
on the Polish Air Force under the British.
                                                 Regards
                                                 John Foster

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Aug 1993 to 26 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 22 messages totalling 822 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. POLISH AIR INFO
  2. twenty five pounder history (2)
  3. War crimes
  4. Destruction of cities (4)
  5. USAAF 27 AUG 43
  6. War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita (5)
  7. GEN: Warbird Auction (2)
  8. MacArthur's vindictiveness?
  9. "Carpetbaggers"--OSS Operations, Northamptonshire  UK
 10. INF: US Naval Chronology of WWII
 11. Neutral countries during the war (2)
 12. ARMY SHIPS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:45:28 METDST
From:    Grzegorz Wapinski <ekogw@HALINA.UNIV.GDA.PL>
Subject: Re: POLISH AIR INFO

>
> While the subject of strategic bombing is topical I would like an answer to the
> following.
> Which Polish squadrons under British command were used at the bombing of Monte
> Cassino ?
> Does anyone have a list of Polish casualties from the above bombing ?
>    Any answers or a point in the right direction would be appreciated.
>    On the general side is there a site or archive I can access to find info
> on the Polish Air Force under the British.
>                                                  Regards
>                                                  John Foster
>
None of the Polish squadrons were used at this bombing.

--
Grzegorz Wapinski                               ekogw@halina.univ.gda.pl
Department of Information Systems
University of Gdansk
A. Krajowej 119/121
81-824 Sopot, Poland

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:10:14 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: twenty five pounder history

I wonder if any readers of this discussion can point me to books, articles,
magazines etc that deal with the history, development, use in training and
battle of the British 25 Pounder field gun. What were its origins and what
major innovations took place in its development? How effective was it in
battle?
Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:50:13 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: War crimes

>Pick out the two worst/most-famous war crimes comitted by the Japanese
>against US subjects. Lets see...
>1) the Bataan Death March, and
>2) the destruction of Manila (after Warsaw, the most damaged major city of
>   WW2) and massacre of civilians by Japanese naval troops.

Isn't it interesting that you could only try Japanese leaders for war crimes
against US subjects?  What about the rape of Nanking and general genocide in
China.  20 million Chinese died in WWII - I'd be surprised if Phillipino +
US losses exceeded 1 million.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:53:45 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Destruction of cities

>..destruction of Manila (after Warsaw, the most damaged major city of WW2..

Is this correct?  I'm not arguing, just interested.  How do you measure
"destruction"?  and what about Berlin, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Dresden...?

I do agree about Warsaw but that's because the Germans systematically
destroyed the entire city with demolition charges, after the uprising in
1944.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 07:04:26 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 27 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 27 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 10th and 35th Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium), 25th Bombardment Group (Medium), based at Edinburgh Field,
Trinidad (10th) and Zandery Field, Surinam (35th) respectively send a
detachment with B-25's to operate from Port Of Spain, Trinidad until Oct
43.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 P-40's strafe a large truck
convoy between Sintsiang and Yoyang, destroying 5 trucks and damaging 15
others; 1 P-40 is downed by ground fire; 6 other P-40's hit communication
lines between Yoyang and Hankow; targets include 2 small steamboats, a
gunboat, several railroad cars, and a water tower.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 87:
224 B-17's are dispatched to the German rocket-launching site construction
at Watten, France; 187 hit the target at 1846-1941 hours; they claim 7-0-6
Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 98
damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 18 WIA and 32 MIA. The mission escort
consists of 173 P-47's; they claim 8-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost
and the pilot is listed as MIA. This is the first of the Eighth Air Force's
missions against V-weapon sites (later designated NOBALL targets).
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 36A & 36B: Two missions are scheduled
to targets in France:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Poix Nord Airfield; 35 hit the target
at 0826 hours; there are no losses or casualties.
  2. 21 B-26's are dispatched to the Rouen Power Station but the mission is
aborted because of bad weather and extremely heavy enemy fighter opposition.
  HQ 356th Fighter Group and it's 360th Fighter Squadron arrive at Goxhill,
England from the US with P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first combat
mission on 15 Oct.
  The 77th and 79th Fighter Squadrons, 20th Fighter Group, arrive at Kings
Cliffe, England from the US with P-38's. The squadrons will fly their first
mission on 28 Dec 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): The 564th and 565th Bombardment
Squadrons (Heavy), 389th Bombardment Group (Heavy), which have been
operating from Bengasi, Libya since Jul with B-24's, returns to their base
at Hethel, England.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb the Sulmona marshalling
yard, and medium bombers hit the Benevento and Caserta marshalling yards;
nearly 150 P-38's escort the bombers. Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) medium and light bombers, and fighters attack targets in S Italy,
including Cantanzaro rail and road junction, guns near Reggio di Calabria,
Sibari rail junctions, Cetraro marshalling yard, barracks at Tarsia, train
and repair shops at Paola, and a barge at Diamante.
  HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 486th, 487th, 488th and
498th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Comiso to Catania,
Sicily with B-25's.
  The 527th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 86th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers
from Gela to Barcelona, Sicily with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 10 B-24's Snoopers, i.e., B-24's  equipped with radar devices that
permit blind bombing, begin operations from Carney Field, Guadalcanal
Island. 12 B-25's, 8 P-40's, and 8 US Navy F4U's strafe barges and shore-
line targets at Kakasa on Choiseul Island; and P-39's strafe barges and
shore targets at Ringa Cove on New Georgia Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-26's attack bridges in the Bogadjim area; and A-20's strafe barges and
troops along the Babui River in the Lae area. On Timor Island, B-25's bomb
Dili and Cape Chater airstrip.
  The 67th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, arrives at
Port Moresby, New Guinea from the US with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 15:13:39 EET
From:    "F.Baube[tm]" <flb@FLB.OPTIPLAN.FI>
Subject: Re: Destruction of cities

> > > Date:         Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:53:45 +0200
> From: Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
> Subject:      Destruction of cities

> I do agree about Warsaw but that's because the Germans systematically
> destroyed the entire city with demolition charges, after the uprising in
> 1944.

OTOH the German commander in Paris disobeyed orders
to ruin the city.  Would he have been considered
liable for war crimes ?  And anyways didn't he
also have a hand in some destruction of cities
in the Netherlands ?

/fred

--
* Fred Baube (tm) GU/MSFS/88 * Kartoon Kwiz Korner: Who and Why ?
* baube@optiplan.fi          * George:  "The coast is clear ?"
* #include <disclaimer.h>    * His dog: (Looks around) "Roast is rear !"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 08:28:23 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>>Lou,
>>    While most coverage of the Homma-Yamashita trials notes that two Associat
e
>>Supreme Court Justices called the proceedings "legalized lynchings", the same
>>accounts normally fail to mention that seven other justices supported the
>>final verdicts.
>>Obviously there were many factors of timing and circumstance that made
>>the trials unique,
>
>Like the fact that MacArthur *somehow* managed to pick out for trial
>the Japanese commander who took the Philippines from him and the one
>who defended the Philippines against him?  Even though their war
>crimes were tenuous at best, and there were plenty of Japanese who
>committed blatant war crimes who were left unprosecuted?
>
>I wouldn't call that "unique", I'd call it "vindictive".
>
>Lee
>
>
>Lee Short   lees@asf.com         This is the sort of English up with which
>Software Janitor                 I will not put.
>Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
>Minneapolis, MN
>

Lee,
     My point was not to deny that the trials might have been vindictive, an
accusation that can be made for many war crimes trials, but to point out that
the case has established a legal precedent that might be used again.  You
really should read the Supreme Court decision if you get the chance. When I was
a cadet a long time ago, we had to study it as part of our military law course.

                                             Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:50:43 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Warbird Auction

Trust me... This is PAINFUL to look at (because it isn't the first
time I've seen similar).  Think we can all get together, pool pocket
change and buy the first Usenet Warbird?

There's an auction this Saturday (tomorrow) which has a surprisingly
excellent collection of warbirds including, but not limited to:

The only flying Me-109 (Casa) in the U.S.  (!!)
B-25J Mitchell (camera ship for Battle of Britain).
The only DC-3 on Amphibious floats.
Two more DC-3's.
F4U-4 Corsair.
North American Yale (Fixed gear T-6).
North American T-6G and an SNJ-2.
Fairchild PT-23.
A couple of Cessna O2-A's, one at least with combat history.
Howard DGA-15P (as used by Curtis LeMay).
Beechcraft AT-11 bomber.
Lockheed PV-2.
1937 Lockheed 12A (combat history -- took German hits).
Fairy Firefly project (!! complete).
A couple of Dehaviland Chipmunks.
A couple of T-28's.  One looks flying, the other a project.
A T-34 project complete with spare engine.
A-4C Skyhawk.
Grumman S-2E Tracker.
Douglas AD4-NA Skyraider.
and an F-104A Starfighter (!!) spotless static display aircraft.

I dunno why people want to get rid of this stuff (some apparently is
coming out of Wright Patterson -- gate sentinels?).  But if anyone has
a lot of spare cash around (especially for the 109 and some other really
unique birds), you can bid on Saturday at Rickenbacker Airfield in
Columbus, Ohio at 10:00 a.m.

I can donate about $100 to the cause.  :-(

The Royal Internet Air Force.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
                   If you can read this, thank a teacher.
                If you can read what you want, thank a vet.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:57:33 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>>Like the fact that MacArthur *somehow* managed to pick out for trial
>>the Japanese commander who took the Philippines from him and the one
>>who defended the Philippines against him?
>
>Pick out the two worst/most-famous war crimes comitted by the Japanese
>against US subjects. Lets see...
>1) the Bataan Death March, and
>2) the destruction of Manila (after Warsaw, the most damaged major city of
>   WW2) and massacre of civilians by Japanese naval troops.
>That "somehow" is plain to me: common sense.

(1) Most famous != worst.  The Japanese medical experiments were
assuredly a worse war crime than the Bataan Death March.  And the war
crimes in China were also much worse, but were not against US
subjects.

(2) I don't believe that any victims of the Manila massacre were
Americans.

(3) Holding Yamashita accountable for the Manila massacre is dubious,
as Yamashita ordered the troops to evacuate the city.

However, you do have a point:  MacArthur's selection of them to
prosecute may have been more politically motivated than personally
motivated.  I guess I'm just a bit quick to suspect MacArthur's
motives after seeing his vindictiveness toward Wainwright.

>
>>Even though their war
>>crimes were tenuous at best, and there were plenty of Japanese who
>>committed blatant war crimes who were left unprosecuted?
>
>Most of the underlings who actually committed the crimes were dead (I
>don't think there was a single prisoner taken of the naval troops in
>Manila). Pretty much the only folks realistically available to prosecute
>soon after the war were the leaders.

This make make their prosecution understandable; it does not make it
just.


Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:04:00 CDT
From:    Lee Short <lees@SNOOPY.ASF.COM>
Subject: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>Lee,
>     My point was not to deny that the trials might have been vindictive, an
>accusation that can be made for many war crimes trials, but to point out that
>the case has established a legal precedent that might be used again.

Thanks for clearing this up.  To be honest, I wasn't quite sure about
your opinion on the matter.

>You
>really should read the Supreme Court decision if you get the chance.

Do you know of a convenient reference that has it?  I actually would
be quite interested...I've seen excepts, but never the whole thing.


Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:10:22 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Warbird Auction

In your message of 27 Aug 1993 at 0949 CDT, you write:
>
> There's an auction this Saturday (tomorrow) which has a surprisingly
> excellent collection of warbirds including, but not limited to:

...list of lots of really cool aircraft deleted

If anyone on the list is going to this auction, I for one, would be
very much interested in seeing the realized price list on these
aircraft.  I've never attended an auction like this and would like to
know what items like this go for, especially the Me109 and the
Corsair.

                              Ciao, Bill Huber
>
> --
> Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
> rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
>                    If you can read this, thank a teacher.
>                 If you can read what you want, thank a vet.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:10:10 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: MacArthur's vindictiveness?

Lee,

     Regarding MacArthur's vindictiveness against Wainwright, my impres-
sion is that that had disappeared by Tokyo Bay (1945).  MacArthur WAS a
fine military leader and strategist who occasionally succumbed to self-
exaltation(/-exoneration), but he was also a very EMOTIONAL person who
could lose it from time to time.

     He seems to have been as egotistical as DeGaulle, but somewhat more
human.

     Others' assessments?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:03:00 CDT
From:    Bill Kupersmith <BLAWRKWY@UIAMVS.BITNET>
Subject: twenty five pounder history

You should find a lot of what you want in Ian V. Hogg,
British and American Artillery of World War 2 (London:
Arms and Armour Press, 1978).  It was a very effective
weapon and a favourite topic of anglo-american debate is
whether the 25 pounder or the American 105mm howitzer
was better.  The American howitzer fired a heaver shell, but
the 25 pdr. had greater range and was mounted on a stand
that allowed a 360 degree traverse, a feature later adopted
by the British army for the 105mm light gun.  Because of
its range, the 25 pdr. was designated a "gun howitzer."

--Bill Kupersmith

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:02:24 -0700
From:    "Thomas F. McGuire" <tmcguir@EIS.CALSTATE.EDU>
Subject: "Carpetbaggers"--OSS Operations, Northamptonshire  UK

Would anyone have information about the 891st/492nd Bombardment Group (H)
or the OSS Operations Groups (OG) it dropped into France?

My particular interest is the work of the Operation Groups.

I am also looking for a book, _Carpetbaggers:  America's Secret War in
Europe_.   The author is Ben Parnell; publisher, Eakin Press.

--------------------
Tom McGuire
Sacramento, CA
tmcguir@eis.calstate.edu
--------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 12:38:23 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>>Pick out the two worst/most-famous war crimes comitted by the Japanese
>>against US subjects.

Lee replies:
>(1) Most famous != worst.

Right, sloppy. I meant big, bad, & famous.

>The Japanese medical experiments were assuredly a worse war crime than
>the Bataan Death March.

Didn't this only become famous in the 1970s? Also, the number of Americans
(I'm unsure about Filipinos) involved seems to have been small or zero.

>(2) I don't believe that any victims of the Manila massacre were Americans.

They were all US subjects; the Philippines gained independence in 1946.

>(3) Holding Yamashita accountable for the Manila massacre is dubious,
>as Yamashita ordered the troops to evacuate the city.

We're back to the original question: "Are commanders responsible for the
actions of their troops?" Its a matter of law, and thus any justice that
may leak into it is somewhat incidental  :-/

as for China...

Chris replies:
>Isn't it interesting that you could only try Japanese leaders for war crimes
>against US subjects?  What about the rape of Nanking and general genocide in
>China.  20 million Chinese died in WWII - I'd be surprised if Phillipino +
>US losses exceeded 1 million.

The response was aimmed at the question of "justice" in the trials of Homma
and Yamashita. As they served in Malaya and Philippines, their crimes were
against US/Filinino and Commonwealth peoples, and hence top-most in the
minds of those people.

I'm too ignorant of post-war war crimes trials to offer much useful input,
but I do know other Japanese leaders *were* tried for war crimes, with
Tojo (minister of war?) being the most famous. As for China...I don't
really know about trials.

speculation:
Perhaps some crimes against China were "off-limits" to *Allied* war
crimes trials, as they occurred pre-entry of Allies into war against
Japan (hence the responsibility of China). Also, the Soviets held most
of the Japanese army in Manchuria (many Japanese soldiers were then
used as slave labor for the next 5+ years). I don't know if the USSR
cooperated in the war crimes trials.

Given the situation in China at the time, my guess is that war crimes
trials there were not a big international news item.

>>..destruction of Manila (after Warsaw, the most damaged major city of WW2

>Is this correct?  I'm not arguing, just interested.  How do you measure
>"destruction"?  and what about Berlin, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Dresden...?

I'll have to check...its one of those factoids I read somewhere that stuck
in my mind. It may well have been CAPITAL cities rather than the more
vaguely defined MAJOR cities. I think destruction was by percentage of
city in ruin. Manila was something like 90%.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:56:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: US Naval Chronology of WWII

I have uploaded a digitized copy of "The U.S. Naval Chronology of World
War II" to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu /pub/history/submissions.  I'll be moving
it to a more appropriate directory this weekend and will post a note
on the new location.

The files are:
 SIZE  FILENAME
  3555 chr39.txt
 11694 chr40.txt
 25700 chr41.txt
 77807 chr42.txt
 84910 chr43.txt
144222 chr44.txt
141007 chr45.txt
  5234 preface.txt
The above files are plain text and are compressed into:
120497 navchr.zip

I'm appending the readme.txt that will go with the files.

Larry J

27 August, 1993.

I have made a valiant attempt to reproduce the original text
of this document faithfully. However, I'm only human so if
you find an error, please send it to me at

jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu

and I'll correct it.  An errata file will be made available
and when the amount and/or seriousness of the corrects require
it, a revised version will replace the current files.

The .TXT files in this directory are plain ASCII, and the .ZIP
file is a compiled version of the same to allow for faster
transfer. (Be sure to set your options to "binary" before ftping
a .ZIP file.)

A complete naval chronology is in the works which will cover all
significant or interesting events of WWII. It's currently twice
the size of this volume and growing.

Larry W. Jewell

 JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU WWII-L Listowner moderator BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:18:07 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

>>Lee,
>>     My point was not to deny that the trials might have been vindictive, an
>>accusation that can be made for many war crimes trials, but to point out that
>>the case has established a legal precedent that might be used again.
>
>Thanks for clearing this up.  To be honest, I wasn't quite sure about
>your opinion on the matter.
>
>>You
>>really should read the Supreme Court decision if you get the chance.
>
>Do you know of a convenient reference that has it?  I actually would
>be quite interested...I've seen excepts, but never the whole thing.
>
>
>Lee


Lee,
     I don't know any readily available source.  It is in my old Constitutional
Law textbook, but that is 20 years old.  That's the type of source you'll have
to look for. Sorry.

                              Con

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:43:54 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Destruction of cities

IMHO, Tokyo should be added to the list of "most destroyed"
cities in WWII.  Consider these numbers, taken from the book
"The Night Tokyo Burned", by Hoito Edoin (ISBN 0-312-01072-9).

The city of Tokyo was a primary target for the low-level,
night incendiary raids which began in March 1945, and continued
until the end of the war.

First raid, night of 9/10 March:  285 B-29s burnt out 15.8 square
miles of the city (including 23 military targets), killing
approximately 100,000 people, and destroying 267,000 buildings.

Revisited on the night of 13/14 April by more than 300 B-29s,
another 11.5 square miles of Tokyo are burnt out.  Another 2500
people are killed, and an additional 257,000 are made homeless.

Returning on the night of 15/16 April, 300+ B-29s destroy another
9.0 square miles, kill 1000 people, with 213,000 injured or homeless.

On the night of 25/26 May, 250+ B-29s destroy another 5.3 sq. miles.

On the night of 26/27 May, another 16.8 square miles.

Altogether, up till this point, about 56 square miles (out of a total
of 110 sq. miles) have been utterly destroyed.  About 300,000 people
have died, with another 200,000 injured and 800,000 homeless.
(I may have missed reporting a raid or two.)

Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, and other cities suffered similar fates.

I'm not making any accusations, nor offering any excuses, just reporting
what I've read.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 12:58:29 -1000
From:    Robert Jay <RJAY@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Destruction of cities

On Fri, 27 Aug 1993, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:

> IMHO, Tokyo should be added to the list of "most destroyed"
> cities in WWII.  Consider these numbers, taken from the book
> "The Night Tokyo Burned", by Hoito Edoin (ISBN 0-312-01072-9).
>
> The city of Tokyo was a primary target for the low-level,
> night incendiary raids which began in March 1945, and continued
> until the end of the war.
>
> First raid, night of 9/10 March:  285 B-29s burnt out 15.8 square
> miles of the city (including 23 military targets), killing
> approximately 100,000 people, and destroying 267,000 buildings.
>
> Revisited on the night of 13/14 April by more than 300 B-29s,
> another 11.5 square miles of Tokyo are burnt out.  Another 2500
> people are killed, and an additional 257,000 are made homeless.
>
> Returning on the night of 15/16 April, 300+ B-29s destroy another
> 9.0 square miles, kill 1000 people, with 213,000 injured or homeless.
>
> On the night of 25/26 May, 250+ B-29s destroy another 5.3 sq. miles.
>
> On the night of 26/27 May, another 16.8 square miles.
>
> Altogether, up till this point, about 56 square miles (out of a total
> of 110 sq. miles) have been utterly destroyed.  About 300,000 people
> have died, with another 200,000 injured and 800,000 homeless.
> (I may have missed reporting a raid or two.)
>
> Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, and other cities suffered similar fates.
>
> I'm not making any accusations, nor offering any excuses, just reporting
> what I've read.
>
>
> Dennis E. Sparks
> SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
> Lexington, Kentucky

Having discussed the raids with individuals living in both cities, my
distinct impression is that while Osaka was largely flattened, bombing in
the vicinity of Kobe was extremely precise, and deliberately avoided most
of the historic old city.  That is indeed the impression one has of Kobe
today (unless they did a lot of painstaking reconstruction).

Robert  Jay
rjay@uhunix3.uhcc.hawaii.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 20:16:46 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject: Neutral countries during the war

It is obvious that Ottaman Empire has lost a lot of land during the WWI.
Even though it underwent a revolution and became the Republic of Turkey
I still do not understand why it did not get into the WWII. If the Turks
had allied with the Nazis they might have easily crushed the Soviet Army
in the Caucus(hope I spelled it right!)region and then their forces could
be transferred to Stalingrad. This transformation would probably stop the
destruction of the German armies in Stalingrad.
  >>Does anyone know the reason why Turkey did everything to keep out of the
war?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 21:08:15 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Neutral countries during the war

>
> It is obvious that Ottaman Empire has lost a lot of land during the WWI.
> Even though it underwent a revolution and became the Republic of Turkey
> I still do not understand why it did not get into the WWII. If the Turks
> had allied with the Nazis they might have easily crushed the Soviet Army
> in the Caucus(hope I spelled it right!)region and then their forces could
> be transferred to Stalingrad. This transformation would probably stop the
> destruction of the German armies in Stalingrad.
>   >>Does anyone know the reason why Turkey did everything to keep out of the
> war?
>

     The Caucasus is not exactly excellent fighting territory. During the
1st World War, the campaigns there had ended in great Tsarist Russian
successes against the Ottoman Turks. When the Tsarist regime collapsed,
Russian troops were deep in Turkish territory. Only the disintegration
of the Russian Army enabled the Turks to regain the lost territory.

     Secondly, Turkey in 1939/1940 had only a very primitive, and relatively
small army. Turkish cities were somewhat vulnerable to air attack (see
Ronald Lewin's book regarding Churchill as warlord).

     Thirdly, Turkey and Soviet Russia seem to have had decent relations
during much of the interwar period: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk actually
signed a frontiers treaty with Soviet Russia sometime in the 1920's.
Unfortunately, I forget the details.

     Churchill at one point hoped Turkey would enter the war as a British
ally (see Lewin for some details).

Regards,
Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Aug 1993 20:42:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.COPLEX.COM>
Subject: ARMY SHIPS

While browsing through a local bookstore the other day I saw a book
listing ships of the U.S. Army in WW2.  I didn't have time to relly
look, but the cover flap stated there were almost 129,000 ships and
other watercraft assigned to the ARMY during the war.

What did they do with them?  Who commanded them?  Did they have navy
crews?  Did they all keep their civilian crews if the were
'conscripted' into service?

Anyway, what really got me was the number assigned and why the army
and not the Navy or Coast Guard.  Why?
---
 . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Aug 1993 to 27 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 6 messages totalling 318 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Firebombing of Japanese cities
  2. Why Turkey neutral?
  3. Internet Survey
  4. reply to America's Secret War in Europe book request.
  5. MacArthur's vindictiveness? (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Aug 1993 13:08:21 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Firebombing of Japanese cities

During my interview of Roman Pucinski -- who was the Katyn Select Congres-
  sional Committee's Chief Investigator -- he mentioned that he had been a
  B-29 bombardier.  He said that they would forewarn 12 Japanese cities at
  a time  of possible attack, and then attack the selected targets of them.

This seems to be a satisfactory "fair warning."  Has anyone else heard of
  this practice?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Aug 1993 13:23:54 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Why Turkey neutral?

'Probably because it had believed in the Germans during WW I and lost
  (territory, wealth, etc.) bigtime.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Aug 1993 16:08:12 -0400
From:    James Herchek <aj901@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Internet Survey

                              INTERNET SURVEY

                     Adele F. Bane <AFB2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
                 William D. Milheim <WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU>
              The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley
________________________________________________________________________________
This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the
Internet that are most used by the academic community.  You have been chosen as
a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate.
Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published
later this year.  Please answer all survey questions.
________________________________________________________________________________

INTERNET INSIGHTS:  A Survey

We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself:

        How many years of computer experience do you have?      _7
__
        How long have you used e-mail of any type?              __2
_
        How long have you been an Internet user?                _2
__

Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified.  They are
electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer.  An
estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily.
This survey explores the use of each of these services.

1.  E-Mail Use:  How often do you make these connections?

           (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Private Email:                                  __6__

                Discussion group(s):                            ___2_
                        (Specify)

                Usenet (or Netnews)                             ____2

                Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s):           ____2
                        (Specify)



2.  Telnet Use:  How often do you connect to remote databases?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Games/Simulations:              _1__
                Library Catalogs:               ___1_
        .       Specialized Databases:          ___1_


2a.  How frequently do you connect these Internet sources:

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                American Mathematical Society BBS               __1__
                American Psychological Assn.                    __1__
                CARL                                            __2__
                CITADEL                                         __1__
                Cleveland FreeNet                               __6__
                Dartmouth Dante                                 __1__
                Dialog                                          __1__
                Dow-Jones News Retrieval                        __1__
                Dranet                                          __1__
                EDIN                                            __1__
                EPA                                             __1__
                ERIC                                            __1__
                FEDIX/MOLIS                                     __1__
                GenBank                                         __1__
                Geographic Name Server                          __1__
                International Centre for Distance Learning      __1__
                ISAAC                                           __1__
                Lexis                                           __1__
                Market/Business Report                          __1__
                National Education BBS                          __1__
                Netfind                                         __1__
                Nexis                                           __1__
                Oceanic Information Center                      __1__
                OCLC                                            __1__
                PENpages                                        __1__
                RLIN                                            __1__
                SpaceLink                                       __2__
                STIS                                            __1__
                TC Forum                                        __1__
                Weather Underground                             __2__
                Webster Dictionary                              __1__

                Other  (Please specify):


3.  FTP Use:  How often do you download files from FTP archive sites?

           (Insert appropriate number beside each item)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Computers and Academic Freedom                  __1__
                EASI                                            __1__
                History                                         __1__
                LIBSOFT                                         __1__
                Lyric and Discography                           __1__
                NASA                                            __1__
                Online Libraries Directory                      __1__
                Science Education                               __1__
                SIMTEL20                                        __1__
                SUMEX-AIM                                       __1__
                U.S. Supreme Court Decisions                    __1__
                Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives          __1__

                Other (Please Specify):


4.      Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet.
        How often do you use these network guides?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Archie                                          __1__
                Campus-wide Information Systems                 __1__
                Gopher                                          __1__
                WAIS (Wide-area information servers)            __1__
                WWW (WorldWideWeb)                              __1__
                Veronica                                        __1__
                HYTELNET                                        __1__
                Other (Please specify):


Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users.  Please comment on
the following:

5.      The importance of the Internet to your work?

      I can talk to people almost anywhere in the world.

6.      Advantages the Internet offers over other resources?

              ???

7.      Barriers to using the Internet?

              None that I know of

8.      Your most memorable use of the Internet?

         My discussion's with foreign users

9  These questions will help us interpret the results of this study:

        Title:         Harry Herchek
        Affiliation:   none
        Discipline:  ___________________________________
        Research Interest(s):History / WW2
        _________________________________________________________

Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU
by September 3, 1993.

If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your
e-mail address here:  _____________________.


            :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :)




--
******************************************************************************
                James Herchek /\/\ aj901@cleveland.freenet.edu.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Aug 1993 18:57:45 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject: reply to America's Secret War in Europe book request.

I looked for your book in almost all of the universities of Ohio through
Ohiolink which connects the libraries of Ohio; however there is no such
writer called Ben Parnell in any of the universities. Even Ohio State
University does not have it which has an enormous library. Sorry!!!!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Aug 1993 19:20:10 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MacArthur's vindictiveness?

Lou writes:
>
> Lee,
>
>      Regarding MacArthur's vindictiveness against Wainwright, my impres-
> sion is that that had disappeared by Tokyo Bay (1945).  MacArthur WAS a
> fine military leader and strategist who occasionally succumbed to self-
> exaltation(/-exoneration), but he was also a very EMOTIONAL person who
> could lose it from time to time.
>
>      He seems to have been as egotistical as DeGaulle, but somewhat more
> human.
>
>      Others' assessments?

     To me, MacArthur lived by the old saying "All the world's a stage."
It often seems that he approached life as if it were only a play, and
as if the other human beings were only "characters" rather than autonomous
entities.
     Why do I feel this way?
     (1) MacArthur's acts of heroism, which were sometimes extremely
dangerous out of all proportion to their potential benefits (a theatre
C-in-C should seldom risk his life);
     (2) His monomania (he regarded the SW Pacific area as "his"; the
Marine unit there was "his" Marine division);
     (3) His love of publicity.

     MacArthur also seems to have felt that some great "script" had
defined him as the "star" of the 20th century (hence his confidence
that he could defend the Philippines against Japanese attack, in the
face of clear facts).

     I don't wish to downgrade MacArthur's  military competence, or
his achievements in postwar Japan. But he does seem to me to have been
a man oddly "insensitive" to others, as if they weren't fully "real";
in other words, as if they only characters in a play of which he was
the star.
>
> Lou Coatney, WIU
>

Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Aug 1993 00:29:50 +0100
From:    Tom Holloway <xuegx@CSV.WARWICK.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: MacArthur's vindictiveness?

>      MacArthur also seems to have felt that some great "script" had
> defined him as the "star" of the 20th century (hence his confidence
> that he could defend the Philippines against Japanese attack, in the
> face of clear facts).
>
>      I don't wish to downgrade MacArthur's  military competence, or
> his achievements in postwar Japan. But he does seem to me to have been
> a man oddly "insensitive" to others, as if they weren't fully "real";
> in other words, as if they only characters in a play of which he was
> the star.
> >


Rob - many people have said the same about Churchill, and
by coincidence I've almost finished 'One Hundred Days', which
is the story of Napoleon Bonaparte's escape from Elba ending
in his defeat at the Battle of Waterloo.  One gets exactly that
same sense of 'theatrical destiny'.

I think it's related to Lord Acton's dictum... "power corrupts,
absolute power corrupts absolutely".

+--------------------------+
! Tom Holloway             !
! t.holloway@warwick.ac.uk !
+--------------------------+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Aug 1993 to 28 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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There is one message totalling 29 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Naval Chronology finds a home.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Aug 1993 06:42:23 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Naval Chronology finds a home.

For those who are interested, "The United States Naval Chronology of
World War II" is now located in

/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology

at

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

Next item for upload is what I call "Who's Who of American Battleships"
which is a compilation of the BB bio's from "Dictionary of American
Fighting Ships" with some additional material from other public sources.
This file is over 700K.

Watch for a "WHATSNEW" coming soon to a mailbox near you :-).

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Aug 1993 to 29 Aug 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 29 Aug 1993 to 30 Aug 1993
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Status: O

There are 16 messages totalling 886 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. POLISH AIR INFO
  2. USAAF 28-29 AUG 43
  3. USAAF 30 AUG 43
  4. re-FTP-BYRD (2)
  5. Firebombing of Japanese cities
  6. Turkey in WWII
  7. War crimes precedents: Homma and Yamashita
  8. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities
  9. destroyers
 10. WEAP: US BB's
 11. GEN: destruction of Manila
 12. Pol: Turkey
 13. INF: Battleships and Dates.
 14. TROUBLE: berlioz.nsc.com
 15. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (New "TROUBLE" flag only change.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:50:00 MSZ
From:    Maciek Jankowicz <mjnkowcz@GRAPE.MEIL.PW.EDU.PL>
Subject: Re: POLISH AIR INFO

> Which Polish squadrons under British command were used at
> the bombing of Monte Cassino ?

        As someone has already written on this list, the answer is:
none Polish squadron bombed Monte Cassino.

        At the time concerned (first half of 1944) there were only
two Polish Air Force units in Italy. Namely:

318 Fighter Reconnaissance Squadron (318 Dywizjon Mysliwsko-Rozpoznawczy
Gdanski), belonging to 285 Reconnaissance Wing of 1 Tactical Air Force.
The squadron was equipped with Spitfire Mk V.
They became operational at 1st of May 1944 at Trigno. The unit
performed photo/visual recce and artillery fire observation missions
for British 5th Corp, later for Polish 2nd Corp of British 8th Army.
It was very close to Monte Cassino.

1586 Polish Special Duties Flight (1586 Polska Eskadra Specjalnego
Przeznaczenia; known also as: 301 Dywizjon Ziemi Pomorskiej,
formerly 301 Polish Bomber Squadron), belonging to the 334 Special
Duties Wing. Since XII 1943 the unit was flying with supplies
over occupied countries, also to Poland, from Campo Cassale
near Brindisi. They were equipped with HP Halifax and
B-24 Liberator machines.

>   On the general side is there a site or archive I can access to find info
> on the Polish Air Force under the British.

        Unfortunately, I have not heard about anything like that.
Moreover, nearly all the books I know on the subject are published in Polish.

        Regards,

                Maciek Jankowicz.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:03:41 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 28-29 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 28 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The 8th Antisubmarine
Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, based at Miami Army Airfield,
Florida, ceases flying ASW missions.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb the marshalling yard at
Terni; B-26's hit the Aversa marshalling yard and Sparanise; and B-25's hit
the Cancello Arnone marshalling yard. P-40's fly intruder missions over
Sardinia, bombing and strafing industry and town area. Northwest African
Tactical Air Force (NATAF) light and medium bombers attack railroad facili-
ties at Lamezia and Catanzaro, Italy; fighter-bombers hit road and rail
junctions, and marshalling yards at Castrovillari, Cosenza, and Catanzaro,
Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's, P-40's, and US Navy F4U's bomb and strafe barges,
buildings, and personnel in the Sigolehe Island-Barora Ite Island area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
26 B-25's bomb and strafe dumps and shipping in the Hansa Bay area, sinking
a small freighter, a power launch, and 8 barges and luggers; and 20 B-17's
and A-20's bomb jetties at Lae and Voco Point and hit barges in Samoa
Harbor between Lae and Salamaua.

SUNDAY, 29 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 9 B-25's, with fighter escort, bomb the
airfield at Chingmen, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Major General William E Kepner
succeeds Major General Frank O Hunter as Commanding General VIII Fighter
Command.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's hit the Orte marshalling yard,
and B-26's bomb Torre Annunziata; Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) fighters escort the NASAF bombers, hit a rail junction at Bagnara,
bridge and town of Angitola, gun positions in the Villa San Giovanni-Reggio
di Calabria areas, and a marshalling yard at Lamezia.
  HQ 51st Troop Carrier Wing transfers from Goubrine, Tunisia to Gela,
Sicily.
  HQ 57th Bombardment Wing transfers from Egypt to Tunisia.
  HQ 64th Troop Carrier Group transfers from El Djem, Tunisia to Comiso,
Sicily.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
35 B-24's, escorted by 44 P-38's, strike airfields at Wewak and Boram; and
48 B-25's and 2 B-17's bomb and strafe the Alexishafen and Bogadjim areas.
A-20's hit dumps on Gasmata Island off the coast of New Britain. B-24's
bomb Babo, New Guinea and Adodo in the Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:08:41 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 30 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 30 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): The 73d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 28th
Composite Group, based on Amchitka Island with B-25's, begins a movement
back to the US.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 13 B-25's, some with P-40 sup-
port, attack Owchihkow and Shihshow, blasting fuel stores and several
buildings; the P-40's strafe gun positions outside Shihshow; 10 P-38's and
P-40's on armored reconnaissance from Sinti to Yoyang to Sienning, strafe
and bomb several targets of opportunity; 3 locomotives are exploded and
another damaged, a water tank is knocked down, and several railroad
stations are heavily damaged. 4 other P-40's attack a convoy E of Hong
Kong; 1 freighter is hit amidships, causing heavy damage; 2 other vessels
are also effectively damaged.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 482d Bombardment Group
(Pathfinder), a Pathfinder (PFF) group fitted with British Oboe and H2S and
US H2X blind-bombing equipment, becomes operational.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 38: 36 B-26's are dispatched to an
ammunition dump at Foret d'Eperlecques near Saint-Omer, France; 33 hit the
target at 1859 hours; 14 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 3 WIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, B-17's of
the Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) bomb Viterbo Airfield;
B-25's hit the Civitavecchia marshalling yard; B-26's bomb the Aversa
marshalling yard. P-40's strafe a radar station at Pula, Sardinia. Also in
Italy, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) medium and light
bombers attack marshalling yards at Marina di Cantanzaro and Paola, and gun
emplacements and bivouac S of Reggio di Calabria; and A-36's bomb marshal-
ling yards at Sapri and Lamezia.
  HQ 60th Troop Carrier Group transfers from El Djem, Tunisia to Gela,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 24 B-24's, along with 20 P-40's and P-39's and 20+ US Navy F4U's,
pound Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island. Allied airplanes claim more
than 30 Japanese shot down; 6 US aircraft are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's pound Dagua, But, and Tadji; and A-20's hit barges on the Bubui
River. On New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, B-26's bomb Cape
Gloucester Airfield while B-25's sweep along the NW coast, bombing and
strafing barges and enemy-occupied villages.
  The 8th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, transfers from Dobodura to
Tsili Tsili, New Guinea with P-40's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 13:52:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re-FTP-BYRD

Larry, thanks for the USN chronology and the batttleship stories in BYRD
This will give an answer on a lot of questions.
Some of my questions were:
  What were the names of the BB cancelled after  WW1 ?
  What did the BB in the first months of WW2? It always
    surprised me that the numbers of BB were US-Jap 17-11 and after
    Pearl Harbor still 11-11, while the US acted as they had none.
  What was the US answer on the Yamato?
    I knew it was Montana, but ...
    The idea behind the Yamato was to built a BB so big it could not
    pass the Panama canal, so the US should be unable to match them.
Now I have a lot of nice reading to find the answers.
Give my greetings to Kim.
Peter de Lange
MIMHCC@Rulmvs.LeidenUniv.NL

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:09:21 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: re-FTP-BYRD

Glad you liked the files.  I'm going to upload a "consolidated" listing
of the battleships, all in one file and with additional information on
armour and major weapons modifications. Stay tuned for further info.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:53:16 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Firebombing of Japanese cities

>During my interview of Roman Pucinski -- who was the Katyn Select Congres-
>  sional Committee's Chief Investigator -- he mentioned that he had been a
>  B-29 bombardier.  He said that they would forewarn 12 Japanese cities at
>  a time  of possible attack, and then attack the selected targets of them.
>
>This seems to be a satisfactory "fair warning."  Has anyone else heard of
>  this practice?
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>

Lou,
     While researching my book, I found copies of the warnings in the LeMay
papers.   They weren't as clear as your bombardier friend remembers.  I printed
part of the text in my tome.  The bottom line was that the leaflets named
eleven possible targets, but then noted that unnamed cities might be bombed,
too.  So it really covered all of Japan.  It was a highly successful
psychological warfare campaign, eventually driving six and a half million
Japanese to flee from cities.  The same tactic had been rejected as too
"terroristic" in Europe.

                                        Con Crane
                                        LTC, USA
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 15:51:28 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Turkey in WWII

Turkey did not join the Axis because it feared an invasion from the British
in the Mediteranean.  There were also strong British and Russian forces in
Iraq.

Turkey did join the Allies against Germany in 1943, I think.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 10:18:13 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents: Homma and Yamashita

In your message you write:
>>Lee,
>>     My point was not to deny that the trials might have been vindictive, an
>>accusation that can be made for many war crimes trials, but to point out that
>>the case has established a legal precedent that might be used again.
>
>Thanks for clearing this up.  To be honest, I wasn't quite sure about
>your opinion on the matter.
>
>>You
>>really should read the Supreme Court decision if you get the chance.
>
>Do you know of a convenient reference that has it?  I actually would
>be quite interested...I've seen excepts, but never the whole thing.
>
>
>Lee
>
Lee,

Any law school library has the complete bound Supreme Court
decisions.  If this was a published opinion, the complete text
should be found in this collection.

Ask your local law school librarian for assistance in using the
law library and finding your particular decision.

Hope this helps.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Phila PA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 10:39:22 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

In your message you write:
>Rusty,
>
>     In the spirit of trans-Pacific glasnost, I have heard a(n unverified)
>report of a young GI being executed/murdered on the spot by his sergeant for
>refusing to participate in the massacre of an Okinawan village in 1945.
>
>     I know WAR WITHOUT MERCY alludes to such acts in general terms, but do
>you know of any specific, on-the-ground, "at our mercy" incidents of
>American atrocities against civilians in the Pacific?
>
>     While our war crimes in the Pacific pale by comparison with the
>Japanese, we do have an obligation to acknowledge them, especially if
>the Japanese are finally willing to do so.
>
>Lou Coatney,
>  Western Illinois University Library
>
Lou,

I'm not sure what you are specifically looking for, but for a
GOOD graphic (VERY GRAPHIC) description of civilian deaths at
the hands of the Japanese and American troops on Okinawa, see
TENNOZAN by George Feifer, published by Ticknor & Fields in
1992.

Hope this is of use.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Phila PA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 17:01:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: destroyers

Silvio. here some data about 2 of your ships.
Horace A. Bass (Sept.12.1944) USA: Fast transport, ex-destroyer-escort.
 Displacement 1650 tons. Dimensions: 300(w.l), 306(o.a.) x 37 x 20 feet
 Guns : 1 x 5 inch , 6 x 40 mm
 Machine 12000 hp , 23 kts
 Complement 204  + 162 troops.
Yung Hsiang - China. River Gunboat
 built in 1912-13 by Kawasaki Co., Kobe, Japan.
 Displacement 830 tons. Dimensions: 205 x 29.5 x 8 ft.
 Guns 1 x 4.1 inch , 1 x 3 inch
 Machine 1350 hp , 13.5 kts
 Complement 105.
If you are able to supply us with some more data about the ships and
about the background of your question maybe we can be more helpfull.
Is there a connection between these ships?
Peter de Lange
MIMHCB@Rulmvs.LeidenUniv.NL

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:01:29 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: WEAP: US BB's

Peter de Lange writes:

> Some of my questions were:
>   What were the names of the BB cancelled after  WW1 ?

Er... from memory, I believe there was one ship of the Colorado Class
(Washington, maybe?), four ships of the South Dakota Class (not to be
confused with the WWII South Dakotas; the cancelled ships were slower and
more heavily armored), and the six Lexington-class battlecruisers.  There
may have been six SoDaks planned, I can't remember.

>   What did the BB in the first months of WW2? It always
>     surprised me that the numbers of BB were US-Jap 17-11 and after
>     Pearl Harbor still 11-11, while the US acted as they had none.

Mostly, they kept busy in the Atlantic.  Between Pearl Harbor and the
sinking of the Repulse and Prince of Wales, Britain and the US pretty
quickly realized that the battleships on hand were unable to protect
themselves from aircraft, and major refits were planned to correct that
(not to mention carrier-building).  Meanwhile, they could be used as-is
agains the Italians and Germans in the Med and the Atlantic, where friendly
land-based air power could protect them.  With German raiders in the
Atlantic, a lot of the BB's spent this period as convoy escorts; others in
Britain were used to bottle up the German fleet in Norway, and of course
the British kept 4-6 battleships in the Med to counter the Italians.

>   What was the US answer on the Yamato?
>     I knew it was Montana, but ...
>     The idea behind the Yamato was to built a BB so big it could not
>     pass the Panama canal, so the US should be unable to match them.

The Montanas would not have been able to use the Canal, either.  But in
fact, it's correct to say that the Iowas were our counter to Yamato.
Recall that the Japanese built the ship under extreme secrecy, and that was
maintained even after commissioning.  I've read accounts that many of the
officers serving aboard her were not informed of her true armament, for
example.

The US believed that the Yamato was armored and armed similarly to one of
our South Dakotas; 16"/45's on perhaps 40,000 tons displacement.  Given
that the Iowa was designed to be the next logical step past a SoDak, I
would argue that as late as 1945 it was considered a Yamato-killer.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:26:52 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: GEN: destruction of Manila

re: destruction of Manila

Someone asked for references to Manila's destruction being the 2nd worst
of WW2. Here's what I found...

Ronald H. Spector _Eagle Against the Sun_ (paperbck pg 524)

"...civilians died in large numbers from the heavy use of arillery by both
sides. Japanese fighting men added to the carnage by murdering, raping,
beating, or burning hapless Filipino civilians caught within their lines.
About 100 000 Filipino civilians died in the battle of Manila - almost six
time the number of soldiers killed on both sides. ... Of all allied cities,
only Warsaw suffered greater damage during the war than Manila."

William B. Breuer _Retaking the Philippines_ (pg 253)

"[House-to-house fighting and artillery] had turned the Pearl of the Orient
into piles of charred rubble. Endless blocks of homes were in ruins. Most
buildings were gutted. Everywhere piles of broken glass had spilled out into
the streets. 75% of the factories and 80% of the utilities were razed. Of
all the great cities of Europe demolished during the war, only Warsaw
suffered more extensively."

"Few civilian populations anywhere endured more intense pain and horrors
than did Manila's. Some 100 000 Filipinos in the capital were already dead,
killed by artillery a