Subject: WWII-L Digest - 16 Aug 1993 to 17 Aug 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 00:00:39 -0400

There are 11 messages totalling 476 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW II Mysteries (3)
  2. USAAF 17 AUG 43
  3. WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps (3)
  4. weap: transports
  5. Help requested
  6. INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 10:25:53 +0200
From:    Allan Myrvang <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW II Mysteries

Hei anybody who would like to give a helping hand!

I feel that World War II is still a mystery, so I need help.

1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
   border in June 1941?

3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
   Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
   in Germany???

5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
   border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
   Finland!)

6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?

I think these questions are enough for this time. Looking forward to
interseting answers and I thank you in advance!

Allan

#################################################
#                #
#  Allan Myrvang                  #
#  Sildegrend                  #
#  N - 5590 ETNE                  #
#  Norway                   #
#  Phone number 04 75 65 33               #
#  Internet <AMyrvang@Oscar@No  192.124.156.38>#
#################################################

PS I tried yesterday to send this letter to the list, but due to
   system problems it must have been illegible. Excuse me so much!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 07:20:13 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 17 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
TUESDAY, 17 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 1 B-24 flies over
Kiska Island watching friendly forces land on the shore of E Kiska Lake.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 23 B-24's, operating in 3 waves, bomb
barracks at Cau Lo, French Indochina. 4 P-40's bomb town of Mangshih,
China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 84:
On the first anniversary of US heavy bomber operations from the UK, a
two-pronged attack into Germany is launched, marking the deepest penetra-
tion of German territory to date. The critical targets are the Messer-
schmitt complex at Regensburg, and the anti-friction-bearing factories at
Schweinfurt.
  1. 230 B-17's are dispatched to Schweinfurt; 188 hit the target at 1459-
1511 hours; they claim 148-18-63 Luftwaffe aircraft; 36 B-17's are lost, 3
are damaged beyond repair and 118 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 12 WIA and
352 MIA; there are 80 high explosive hits on the 2 main bearing plants.
  2. 146 B-17's are dispatched to Regensburg; 127 hit the target at 1148-
1207 hours; they claim 140-19-36 Luftwaffe aircraft; 24 B-17's are lost, 1
is damaged beyond repair and 50 are damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 9 WIA
and 200 MIA; every important building in the complex is damaged; the
surviving aircraft continue on to bases in North Africa.
  60 B-17's are lost in the fierce air battle that extends to the targets
and continues after the bombing.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 23 and 24: Two airfields in France are
targetted.
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Bryas Sud Airfield; 29 hit the target at
1051 hours; 2 aircraft are damaged.
  2. 72 B-26's are dispatched to Poix/Nord Airfield; 35 hit the target at
1552 hours; 20 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 1 WIA.
  During the night of 17/18 Aug the Royal Air Force (RAF) begins Operation
CROSSBOW, massive attacks on German V-weapon sites. About 570 aircraft drop
2,000 tons of bombs on Peenemunde, Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): 200+ P-40's hit shipping at
Messina, Sicily, at Palmi and in the Gulf of Gioia, Italy.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): The Sicilian
campaign ends with the official entry of the US Seventh Army's 3d Infantry
Division into Messina at 1000 hours. The British force from Ali arrives
shortly thereafter. The fall of Sicily paves the way for the stepped-up air
offensive against Italy.
  In France, about 180 Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's
attack Istres-Le-Tube Airfield and Salon-de-Provence Airfield. Around 100
medium bombers attack communications targets on the N part of the Italian
toe, hitting Battipaglia and Castrovillari with damaging effect; escorting
P-38's strafe vehicles in the area. Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) fighters and light bombers pound shipping in the Straits of Messina
and Gulf of Gioia, Italy, hit the rail center at Lamezia, Italy, and har-
rass enemy movement on the Italian toe.
  The 416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force, transfers from Al-
giers to Bone, Algeria with Beaufighters. The squadron will fly it's first
combat mission on 4 Sep.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
50+ B-24's and B-17's make a predawn attack on Wewak and satellite air-
fields at Boram, Dogaw, and But, and also hit Tadji and Madang; during the
midmorning, 30+ B-25's, with 80+ P-38's covering, carry out the day's
second bombing and strafing strike on Boram, Wewak, and Dogaw; this begins
a campaign to neutralize Japanese airfields in preparation for offensive
against Lae; A-20's again hit enemy forces in the Salamaua area. B-24's
bomb oil facilities at Balikpapan, Borneo.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 14:05:31 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

> Hei anybody who would like to give a helping hand!

Well, why not?

> 1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

When Germany invaded the country in 1941. Then little choice was left.
If you want to be rigorous, the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 to
collect their share of the country can also be considered a starting point,
but after the defaeat of Poland the USSR was not at war until 1941.

> 2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the Sovjet-German
>    border in June 1941?

No idea.

> 3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

Several reasons. (i) Stalin simply refused to believe that Germany would attack,
despite warnings from many people, including his own spies, the British, and
even some Germans. Commanders who wanted to prepare their units for battle were
forbidden to do this. (ii) The Red Army was reorganizing and reequipping on a
lareg scale. The plans for this were far too grandiose, resulting in chaos at
the time of the attack. Old units were disbanded and the new were not yet
created. (iii) Too many experienced officers had been eliminated by Stalins
purges, incapacitating the command.

> 4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
>    Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was better
>    in Germany???

Lots of tanks. The USSR had more than 10000 tanks, at least four times as much
as the German army. Many of them were obsolete, but the newer ones, especially
the T-34, were superior to the German tanks. However, the Red Army had no tank
divisions; tanks were scattered over all units. There was no theoretical basis
for a fast 'blitzkrieg' war; the Soviet generals had to learn this from their
German counterparts. What they did admirably fast.

> 5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the sovjetrussian
>    border? (It had not been an easy task for the Red Army to invade
>    Finland!)

Surprise and good organization. The USSR attack on Finland was problematic
because a badly organized army attacked a prepared enemy on very difficult
terrain. The German army was a very experienced force, the Red Army was
ill-prepared, and the terrain was mostly acceptable for tank warfare.

> 6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian winter?

Simply put: Hitler refused to do so. The war had to be won before the winter, so
only a small occupying force would need winter equipment. The possibility of a
winter war was out of consideration. Also, it was argued that large-scale
preparations for winter warfare would alarm the USSR; but it could hardly have
been more alarming than the large troop movements to the east.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 09:30:47 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

A friend is considering buying a jeep at a local government auction:

>       "Nine M183A1 Willys Jeeps, 1952's, 53's and 54's, most complete,
>       several in running condition, all former U.S. Army units.

These have been owned by the Forestry department, so their condition is
anyone's guess; probably not good.

He's wondering what to expect to pay for them.  I've pointed him at a
couple of periodicals (e.g., AFV Collectors' News), but since he's not
likely to find a copy by Saturday, I thought I'd see if anyone here might
have an estimate.

Blitzkreig! (tanks in advance)

-  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Aug 1993 15:59:06 BRA
From:    "Silvio E. G. Melo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: weap: transports

     Please, I need bibliography about transports (trucks, unarmoured cars etc)
of WWII (all countries). Any recommendations is welcome.
     tank's in advance.
                                Silvio E. G. Melo

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 12:25:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Help requested

From:   IN%"[email-masked]"  "ILL-L: Interlibrary Loan discus
   sion group", IN%"[email-masked]"  "crocker carol" 17-AUG-1993 12:23:29.
   76
To:     IN%"[email-masked]"  "Multiple recipients of list ILL
   -L"
CC:
Subj:   help/Dr. Frank

One of our professors would like a copy of a speech given by Dr. Frank,
"The Jews in Jurisprudents" page 71-, form DOCUMENTS OF GERMAN POLITICS,
Volume II.  He tells me that the cite was found on page 284 of TRIALS OF THE
MAJOR WAR CRIMINALS, volume 24.  Our volume 24 is missing, making cite check
impossible.

We tried OCLC and Lexis (found DOKUMENTE DER DEUTSCHEN POLITIK, but would
like an English version).  Am hoping some kind soul can help.

Thanks in advance!

Carol Crocker
Washburn School of Law Library
Topeka, Ks                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 13:56:32 -0400
From:    Bill Larson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45)

Larry,
        Clay Blair reports the date as 1 APR 1945 on pages 810-814 of Silent
Victory.
        Bill    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 14:16:20 EDT
From:    Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II Mysteries

        Allan Myrvang <[email-masked]> writes:
        1) When exactly did the Sovjet-Union enter the war, and why?

July 22, 1941, when German troops crashed across the border.

        2) Why were there so many Russian soldiers at the
        Sovjet-German  border in June 1941?

... Stalin didn't quite trust Hitler (as it turned out, with good
reason.)  Besides, the Soviets were determined to keep a large
standing army, and they had to be put *somewhere* :-)

        3) Why did they defend themselves so badly?

... their leadership at most levels was defective.  At the highest
levels, Soviet leadership misjudged how good the Germans were
(ordering ill-advised counterattacks and hold-your-grounds for far too
long); at the lower levels, the Soviet pool of commanders was
generally second-rate, since Stalin had so recently had the leading
lights murdered (having convinced himself that good commanders were
part of a plot to remove himself), leaving for the most part pleasant
nonentities to command the troops.

Also, military units were "dual-commanded" by its Red Army commander,
and its NKVD Commisar, so no commander would be in the least way
imaginative, since so doing would ensure a quick, one-way ride to
Lefortova (sp?) prison. Soviet units fought hard, but were rapidly
overcome.

        4) How was the Sovjet-Union equipped with tanks compared to
           Germany's tanks divisions? The technical standard was
           better in Germany???

   Some very good (KV-1's were virtually unstoppable, but few in
number; the T-34 was of course also very good); many not so good older
tanks.  They had many more tanks, but they were parceled out to
independant brigades, and unimaginatively handled.  German tanks,
though often inferior had radios, most Soviet's did not; German tanks
had better optics, air support, and generally better trained troops.
As for mechanical reliability, I don't have enough information from my
reading to tell.

        5) Why was it so easy for the German armies to cross the
           sovjetrussian border? (It had not been an easy task for the
           Red Army to invade Finland!)

... well, it wasn't exactly easy, but it was very rapid.  The terrain
in the two wars you mention was very, very different.  (In Finland,
the south was very heavily fortified, the north a virtually trackless
forest; in Poland the terrain was much more suited for mobile
operations and not as heavily fortified.)  Also, the Germans had honed
their skills for 2 years in mobile operations, so by then they were
pretty good at it.

        6) Why were the German soldiers not equipped for the Russian
           winter?

... stupidity, mostly.  A decision was made to use the sparse
(captured) Russian rail net to move things other than winter clothes,
in anticipation that the war would be over by the time winter set in.
The Russian rail system was a different guage than the German, so
especially in 1941 getting supplies up where the fighting was was
difficult.  Making up for that bad decision took time, since there
were an immense number of troops to be re-equipped, who were also
fighting at the time.

Charles

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 17:32:30 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF:Queenfish/Awa Maru (Silent Victory=1 APR 45)

>
> Larry,
>         Clay Blair reports the date as 1 APR 1945 on pages 810-814 of Silent
> Victory.
>         Bill    [email-masked]
>
Thanks for the response.  This was clearly a major FUBAR on the Queenfish's
part. How does Silent Victory tell the tale (if you have the time to report
it, of course, I can hear the eager young faces tramping toward campus even
now ;-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 20:45:45 CDT
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

Public Auction bids are a real crap shot as to what to bid--it just
depends upon who is bidding on them, and for what purpose they intend to
use them for (resale, restoration).  I would suggest scope out the compe
tition as much as possible, and their motives.  They could go for $50,
or $50,000 depending upon what their condition is.

I would assume if they have been used by the forestry department, they
probably have been used regularly, and have had scheduled maintenance
performed on them--so they might not be too bad--unless they have sat
rusting for 20 years.

So what are they worth???  I recently saw a WWII jeep, with trailer and
lots of nice do-dads listed for $12,000.  Minus the do-dads it is probab
worth around $9,000.  It depends upon if it is a runner, or a tower.  It
depends upon the shape of the mechanical componets.  Worry more about th
e engine, brakes, and powertrain than the body, seats and other cosmetic
items---cosmetic itemson a military vehicle (now there is a contradictio
n in terms!!) are easy to fix and cheap to fix--mechanical problems tend
to be frustrating and can be expensive.  Take a look and see exactly how
much they have been altered for the forestry department.  A less altered
vehicle is worth more to a military collector who might be bidding, and
a civilianized jeep is worth more to a 4-wheeler.  It all just depends.

I hope this helps, even though I didn't give you a straight answer.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:42:58 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Collectors' Jeeps

> A friend is considering buying a jeep at a local government auction:
>
> >       "Nine M183A1 Willys Jeeps, 1952's, 53's and 54's, most complete,
> >       several in running condition, all former U.S. Army units.
>
> These have been owned by the Forestry department, so their condition is
> anyone's guess; probably not good.
>
> He's wondering what to expect to pay for them.  I've pointed him at a
> couple of periodicals (e.g., AFV Collectors' News), but since he's not
> likely to find a copy by Saturday, I thought I'd see if anyone here might
> have an estimate.

Although everything varies kinda heavily, our collection of vehicles
includes a 1941 Willy's jeep.  (Jeep is actually an incorrect term, but
it's understood :-).

This is a unique vehicle in that not only is it fully restored and
operating, but that it was one of the first 600 ever built of its
type.  (I don't know if it's the same or similar to these.  I'm certain
I can find out.)

However, our jeep, sans trailer, has an estimated value of $10,000 to
$15,000.

I don't know if that helps set the value for a later probably worn-out
Willy's or not, but you'd know what NOT to spend for it. :-)

> Blitzkreig! (tanks in advance)

Groan.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force
  You know you've made a gear-up landing when it takes full power to taxi.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Aug 1993 to 17 Aug 1993
*************************************************