Subject: WWII-L Digest - 29 Aug 1993 to 30 Aug 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 00:00:24 -0400

There are 16 messages totalling 886 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. POLISH AIR INFO
  2. USAAF 28-29 AUG 43
  3. USAAF 30 AUG 43
  4. re-FTP-BYRD (2)
  5. Firebombing of Japanese cities
  6. Turkey in WWII
  7. War crimes precedents: Homma and Yamashita
  8. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities
  9. destroyers
 10. WEAP: US BB's
 11. GEN: destruction of Manila
 12. Pol: Turkey
 13. INF: Battleships and Dates.
 14. TROUBLE: berlioz.nsc.com
 15. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (New "TROUBLE" flag only change.)

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Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:50:00 MSZ
From:    Maciek Jankowicz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POLISH AIR INFO

> Which Polish squadrons under British command were used at
> the bombing of Monte Cassino ?

        As someone has already written on this list, the answer is:
none Polish squadron bombed Monte Cassino.

        At the time concerned (first half of 1944) there were only
two Polish Air Force units in Italy. Namely:

318 Fighter Reconnaissance Squadron (318 Dywizjon Mysliwsko-Rozpoznawczy
Gdanski), belonging to 285 Reconnaissance Wing of 1 Tactical Air Force.
The squadron was equipped with Spitfire Mk V.
They became operational at 1st of May 1944 at Trigno. The unit
performed photo/visual recce and artillery fire observation missions
for British 5th Corp, later for Polish 2nd Corp of British 8th Army.
It was very close to Monte Cassino.

1586 Polish Special Duties Flight (1586 Polska Eskadra Specjalnego
Przeznaczenia; known also as: 301 Dywizjon Ziemi Pomorskiej,
formerly 301 Polish Bomber Squadron), belonging to the 334 Special
Duties Wing. Since XII 1943 the unit was flying with supplies
over occupied countries, also to Poland, from Campo Cassale
near Brindisi. They were equipped with HP Halifax and
B-24 Liberator machines.

>   On the general side is there a site or archive I can access to find info
> on the Polish Air Force under the British.

        Unfortunately, I have not heard about anything like that.
Moreover, nearly all the books I know on the subject are published in Polish.

        Regards,

                Maciek Jankowicz.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:03:41 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 28-29 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 28 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The 8th Antisubmarine
Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, based at Miami Army Airfield,
Florida, ceases flying ASW missions.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's bomb the marshalling yard at
Terni; B-26's hit the Aversa marshalling yard and Sparanise; and B-25's hit
the Cancello Arnone marshalling yard. P-40's fly intruder missions over
Sardinia, bombing and strafing industry and town area. Northwest African
Tactical Air Force (NATAF) light and medium bombers attack railroad facili-
ties at Lamezia and Catanzaro, Italy; fighter-bombers hit road and rail
junctions, and marshalling yards at Castrovillari, Cosenza, and Catanzaro,
Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's, P-40's, and US Navy F4U's bomb and strafe barges,
buildings, and personnel in the Sigolehe Island-Barora Ite Island area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
26 B-25's bomb and strafe dumps and shipping in the Hansa Bay area, sinking
a small freighter, a power launch, and 8 barges and luggers; and 20 B-17's
and A-20's bomb jetties at Lae and Voco Point and hit barges in Samoa
Harbor between Lae and Salamaua.

SUNDAY, 29 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 9 B-25's, with fighter escort, bomb the
airfield at Chingmen, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Major General William E Kepner
succeeds Major General Frank O Hunter as Commanding General VIII Fighter
Command.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-17's hit the Orte marshalling yard,
and B-26's bomb Torre Annunziata; Northwest African Tactical Air Force
(NATAF) fighters escort the NASAF bombers, hit a rail junction at Bagnara,
bridge and town of Angitola, gun positions in the Villa San Giovanni-Reggio
di Calabria areas, and a marshalling yard at Lamezia.
  HQ 51st Troop Carrier Wing transfers from Goubrine, Tunisia to Gela,
Sicily.
  HQ 57th Bombardment Wing transfers from Egypt to Tunisia.
  HQ 64th Troop Carrier Group transfers from El Djem, Tunisia to Comiso,
Sicily.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
35 B-24's, escorted by 44 P-38's, strike airfields at Wewak and Boram; and
48 B-25's and 2 B-17's bomb and strafe the Alexishafen and Bogadjim areas.
A-20's hit dumps on Gasmata Island off the coast of New Britain. B-24's
bomb Babo, New Guinea and Adodo in the Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:08:41 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 30 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 30 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): The 73d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 28th
Composite Group, based on Amchitka Island with B-25's, begins a movement
back to the US.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 13 B-25's, some with P-40 sup-
port, attack Owchihkow and Shihshow, blasting fuel stores and several
buildings; the P-40's strafe gun positions outside Shihshow; 10 P-38's and
P-40's on armored reconnaissance from Sinti to Yoyang to Sienning, strafe
and bomb several targets of opportunity; 3 locomotives are exploded and
another damaged, a water tank is knocked down, and several railroad
stations are heavily damaged. 4 other P-40's attack a convoy E of Hong
Kong; 1 freighter is hit amidships, causing heavy damage; 2 other vessels
are also effectively damaged.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 482d Bombardment Group
(Pathfinder), a Pathfinder (PFF) group fitted with British Oboe and H2S and
US H2X blind-bombing equipment, becomes operational.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 38: 36 B-26's are dispatched to an
ammunition dump at Foret d'Eperlecques near Saint-Omer, France; 33 hit the
target at 1859 hours; 14 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 3 WIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, B-17's of
the Northwest African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) bomb Viterbo Airfield;
B-25's hit the Civitavecchia marshalling yard; B-26's bomb the Aversa
marshalling yard. P-40's strafe a radar station at Pula, Sardinia. Also in
Italy, Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) medium and light
bombers attack marshalling yards at Marina di Cantanzaro and Paola, and gun
emplacements and bivouac S of Reggio di Calabria; and A-36's bomb marshal-
ling yards at Sapri and Lamezia.
  HQ 60th Troop Carrier Group transfers from El Djem, Tunisia to Gela,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 24 B-24's, along with 20 P-40's and P-39's and 20+ US Navy F4U's,
pound Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island. Allied airplanes claim more
than 30 Japanese shot down; 6 US aircraft are lost.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's pound Dagua, But, and Tadji; and A-20's hit barges on the Bubui
River. On New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, B-26's bomb Cape
Gloucester Airfield while B-25's sweep along the NW coast, bombing and
strafing barges and enemy-occupied villages.
  The 8th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, transfers from Dobodura to
Tsili Tsili, New Guinea with P-40's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 13:52:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: re-FTP-BYRD

Larry, thanks for the USN chronology and the batttleship stories in BYRD
This will give an answer on a lot of questions.
Some of my questions were:
  What were the names of the BB cancelled after  WW1 ?
  What did the BB in the first months of WW2? It always
    surprised me that the numbers of BB were US-Jap 17-11 and after
    Pearl Harbor still 11-11, while the US acted as they had none.
  What was the US answer on the Yamato?
    I knew it was Montana, but ...
    The idea behind the Yamato was to built a BB so big it could not
    pass the Panama canal, so the US should be unable to match them.
Now I have a lot of nice reading to find the answers.
Give my greetings to Kim.
Peter de Lange
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 07:09:21 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: re-FTP-BYRD

Glad you liked the files.  I'm going to upload a "consolidated" listing
of the battleships, all in one file and with additional information on
armour and major weapons modifications. Stay tuned for further info.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:53:16 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Firebombing of Japanese cities

>During my interview of Roman Pucinski -- who was the Katyn Select Congres-
>  sional Committee's Chief Investigator -- he mentioned that he had been a
>  B-29 bombardier.  He said that they would forewarn 12 Japanese cities at
>  a time  of possible attack, and then attack the selected targets of them.
>
>This seems to be a satisfactory "fair warning."  Has anyone else heard of
>  this practice?
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>

Lou,
     While researching my book, I found copies of the warnings in the LeMay
papers.   They weren't as clear as your bombardier friend remembers.  I printed
part of the text in my tome.  The bottom line was that the leaflets named
eleven possible targets, but then noted that unnamed cities might be bombed,
too.  So it really covered all of Japan.  It was a highly successful
psychological warfare campaign, eventually driving six and a half million
Japanese to flee from cities.  The same tactic had been rejected as too
"terroristic" in Europe.

                                        Con Crane
                                        LTC, USA
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 15:51:28 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Turkey in WWII

Turkey did not join the Axis because it feared an invasion from the British
in the Mediteranean.  There were also strong British and Russian forces in
Iraq.

Turkey did join the Allies against Germany in 1943, I think.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:[email-masked]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 10:18:13 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents: Homma and Yamashita

In your message you write:
>>Lee,
>>     My point was not to deny that the trials might have been vindictive, an
>>accusation that can be made for many war crimes trials, but to point out that
>>the case has established a legal precedent that might be used again.
>
>Thanks for clearing this up.  To be honest, I wasn't quite sure about
>your opinion on the matter.
>
>>You
>>really should read the Supreme Court decision if you get the chance.
>
>Do you know of a convenient reference that has it?  I actually would
>be quite interested...I've seen excepts, but never the whole thing.
>
>
>Lee
>
Lee,

Any law school library has the complete bound Supreme Court
decisions.  If this was a published opinion, the complete text
should be found in this collection.

Ask your local law school librarian for assistance in using the
law library and finding your particular decision.

Hope this helps.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Phila PA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 10:39:22 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

In your message you write:
>Rusty,
>
>     In the spirit of trans-Pacific glasnost, I have heard a(n unverified)
>report of a young GI being executed/murdered on the spot by his sergeant for
>refusing to participate in the massacre of an Okinawan village in 1945.
>
>     I know WAR WITHOUT MERCY alludes to such acts in general terms, but do
>you know of any specific, on-the-ground, "at our mercy" incidents of
>American atrocities against civilians in the Pacific?
>
>     While our war crimes in the Pacific pale by comparison with the
>Japanese, we do have an obligation to acknowledge them, especially if
>the Japanese are finally willing to do so.
>
>Lou Coatney,
>  Western Illinois University Library
>
Lou,

I'm not sure what you are specifically looking for, but for a
GOOD graphic (VERY GRAPHIC) description of civilian deaths at
the hands of the Japanese and American troops on Okinawa, see
TENNOZAN by George Feifer, published by Ticknor & Fields in
1992.

Hope this is of use.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Phila PA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 17:01:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: destroyers

Silvio. here some data about 2 of your ships.
Horace A. Bass (Sept.12.1944) USA: Fast transport, ex-destroyer-escort.
 Displacement 1650 tons. Dimensions: 300(w.l), 306(o.a.) x 37 x 20 feet
 Guns : 1 x 5 inch , 6 x 40 mm
 Machine 12000 hp , 23 kts
 Complement 204  + 162 troops.
Yung Hsiang - China. River Gunboat
 built in 1912-13 by Kawasaki Co., Kobe, Japan.
 Displacement 830 tons. Dimensions: 205 x 29.5 x 8 ft.
 Guns 1 x 4.1 inch , 1 x 3 inch
 Machine 1350 hp , 13.5 kts
 Complement 105.
If you are able to supply us with some more data about the ships and
about the background of your question maybe we can be more helpfull.
Is there a connection between these ships?
Peter de Lange
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:01:29 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: US BB's

Peter de Lange writes:

> Some of my questions were:
>   What were the names of the BB cancelled after  WW1 ?

Er... from memory, I believe there was one ship of the Colorado Class
(Washington, maybe?), four ships of the South Dakota Class (not to be
confused with the WWII South Dakotas; the cancelled ships were slower and
more heavily armored), and the six Lexington-class battlecruisers.  There
may have been six SoDaks planned, I can't remember.

>   What did the BB in the first months of WW2? It always
>     surprised me that the numbers of BB were US-Jap 17-11 and after
>     Pearl Harbor still 11-11, while the US acted as they had none.

Mostly, they kept busy in the Atlantic.  Between Pearl Harbor and the
sinking of the Repulse and Prince of Wales, Britain and the US pretty
quickly realized that the battleships on hand were unable to protect
themselves from aircraft, and major refits were planned to correct that
(not to mention carrier-building).  Meanwhile, they could be used as-is
agains the Italians and Germans in the Med and the Atlantic, where friendly
land-based air power could protect them.  With German raiders in the
Atlantic, a lot of the BB's spent this period as convoy escorts; others in
Britain were used to bottle up the German fleet in Norway, and of course
the British kept 4-6 battleships in the Med to counter the Italians.

>   What was the US answer on the Yamato?
>     I knew it was Montana, but ...
>     The idea behind the Yamato was to built a BB so big it could not
>     pass the Panama canal, so the US should be unable to match them.

The Montanas would not have been able to use the Canal, either.  But in
fact, it's correct to say that the Iowas were our counter to Yamato.
Recall that the Japanese built the ship under extreme secrecy, and that was
maintained even after commissioning.  I've read accounts that many of the
officers serving aboard her were not informed of her true armament, for
example.

The US believed that the Yamato was armored and armed similarly to one of
our South Dakotas; 16"/45's on perhaps 40,000 tons displacement.  Given
that the Iowa was designed to be the next logical step past a SoDak, I
would argue that as late as 1945 it was considered a Yamato-killer.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:26:52 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: destruction of Manila

re: destruction of Manila

Someone asked for references to Manila's destruction being the 2nd worst
of WW2. Here's what I found...

Ronald H. Spector _Eagle Against the Sun_ (paperbck pg 524)

"...civilians died in large numbers from the heavy use of arillery by both
sides. Japanese fighting men added to the carnage by murdering, raping,
beating, or burning hapless Filipino civilians caught within their lines.
About 100 000 Filipino civilians died in the battle of Manila - almost six
time the number of soldiers killed on both sides. ... Of all allied cities,
only Warsaw suffered greater damage during the war than Manila."

William B. Breuer _Retaking the Philippines_ (pg 253)

"[House-to-house fighting and artillery] had turned the Pearl of the Orient
into piles of charred rubble. Endless blocks of homes were in ruins. Most
buildings were gutted. Everywhere piles of broken glass had spilled out into
the streets. 75% of the factories and 80% of the utilities were razed. Of
all the great cities of Europe demolished during the war, only Warsaw
suffered more extensively."

"Few civilian populations anywhere endured more intense pain and horrors
than did Manila's. Some 100 000 Filipinos in the capital were already dead,
killed by artillery and bullets or murdered by the doomed Japanese garrison.
There are verified reports of [burning, mutilation, murder of babies, rape,
etc]".

Hmmm, looks like Spector and Breuer used similar sources...that Warsaw
quote in particular. I don't have the US Army in WW2 official history of
the liberation, but I'd guess that is where it is from.

I think Manila's population was about 800 000. I'm unsure if that is
accurate for the time of the battle in Feb 1945. Given to 2-to-1 rule
of thumb for civilian casualties, I'd guess Manila's total casualties
from the battle as about 300 000 dead and wounded...1/3 to 1/2 of the
population.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:28:29 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Pol: Turkey

Cagan Gurer writes:

> Does anyone know the reason why Turkey did everything to keep out of the
> war?

Britain was placing quite a bit of pressure on Turkey to remain neutral,
and the Turks certainly had a great deal to lose with Britain as an enemy.
By the time Germany invaded the USSR the British had control of the former
French colonies in the Middle East, so had a solid base from which to
threaten southern Turkey;  within a month of Barbarossa, Britain and the
USSR controlled Iran, as well.  Add the British naval presence in the Med,
and it's clear that Turkey didn't want to have them for an enemy.

But considerations go further than that.  We can start as early as WWI,
where the lesson was that Germany was not able to do a lot to help Turkey,
so her value as an ally was low.

Then consider the Russo-German Non-Aggression Pact of 1939, and subsequent
expansion of German influence in the Balkans.  By the time Germany broke
that pact by invasion, she had gained control of the entire Balkan region
and bordered Turkey.  From the Turkish point of view, that means your
historical enemy, Russia, is cooperating with this new expansionist power;
the two recently split Poland between them.  No warm fuzzy feelings result
from this. 8-)

In 1940, Turkey fell out with Italy and severed relations.  Relations with
Germany were strained to the point that a German shipyard in Turkey was
confiscated and its technicians expelled.  A border clash with Russia over
Bessarabia nearly escalated to warfare.  By December of that year there
were very credible rumors that the Axis would invade Turkey to create a
path to the Middle East.

So Turkey simply wasn't feeling all that friendly toward the Axis, and a
British guarantee of protection was soon accepted.

In the end, it was the wise decision for Turkey.  Their armed forces would
have been nearly helpless against Germany, the USSR, or Great Britain, so
entry into the war on either side would have been suicidal.  At best they'd
have shared Finland's fate; at worst, Poland's.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
          "Giving money and power to government is like giving
         whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 16:46:32 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Battleships and Dates.

I'm happy to announce that the first draft of the WHO'S WHO OF
UNITED STATES BATTLESHIPS is available for ftp from

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/maritime/american_bat_dir
bb_full.zip

This is a 236K zip file that expands to a 740K plain text file containing
information on all U.S. battleships. Technical specifications and a
short bio (some very short, others very long) for each ship, including
canceled hulls, are included. The core of this material is from
Dictionary of American Fighting Ships produced by the Naval Historical
Center, Washington, D.C., with additional information from other sources.

The individual bio's on each ship will remain in the same directory.

This volume is the second in a series of reproductions of historical
documents from the Naval Historical Center. The first was THE UNITED
STATES NAVY'S CHRONOLOGY OF WORLD WAR II, which is also available from
"byrd".  Both were originally created at the public expense and are
freely reproducible.

The chronology is in

/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology

For other etexts of interest, inquire into Project Gutenberg.

Instructions on ftp available via e-mail on request.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 17:00:00 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: TROUBLE: berlioz.nsc.com

 Alan, please contact me!

> UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s):
>     <[email-masked]>
> 550 Host 'BERLIOZ.NSC.COM' Unknown

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 1993 17:03:46 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L (New "TROUBLE" flag only change.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs.
     Single axis")
REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.)
INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.)
DOC (Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War,
     Speeches, Treaties, etc.)
GEN ("Let's find a category for this.")
TRV (For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.)
VET (For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans)
HOME (For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.)
NOST (For Nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.)
ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
       Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate
       an "ADMIN" article.)
WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.)
MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC  (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives)
      should be posted under this flag.))
TROUBLE (Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.)

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.

Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.

1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.

Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from you own account rather
than having me add you to the list.  This allows the software to confirm
mailing routes as I don't always get your full address in the mail.

Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution.

SUBSCRIPTION INFOMATION:

ALL Messages are to go to:

[email-masked] (internet)
listserv@ubvm                (bitnet)

Send the following commands  in the body of the message.

To SUBSCRIBE:

subscribe wwii-l (your name)

To UNSUBSCRIBE:

unsubscribe wwii-l

To turn mail off for a period without unsubscribing:

set wwii-l nomail

To turn mail back on when ready:

set wwii-l mail

To Digest (have all postings sent in one mailing per day):

set wwii-l digest

To restore normal mail (undigest the list.)

set wwii-l mail

To confirm that your posting has been sent to the list:

set wwii-l ack

To get a copy of your posting sent to you:

set wwii-l repro

(Ack will send you a note saying "your file has been succesfully distributed,
and repro will send a copy back to you of your posting..

To retrieve logfiles for WWII-L send mail to [email-masked] or
                                             listserv@ubvm (for bitnet)

with this message in the body:

get wwii-l log9207c

This file will contain all the postings sent to the list in the third week
of July.

The files are held for two months and broken down by seven day periods (which
usually don't coincide with the calendar "week".  Thus you might see this
kind of entry

WWII-L LOG9207A  (for 01-07 July, 1992)
WWII-L LOG9207B  (for 08-14 July, 1992)
WWII-L LOG9207C  (for 15-21 July, 1992)

You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into ubvm.cc.buffalo.
edu and CD to WWII-L.  The files are in ascii format and the machine is case
sensitive.

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)

Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "[email-masked]"
or "[email-masked]" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <[email-masked]>

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      [email-masked]
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234

#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   [email-masked]     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 29 Aug 1993 to 30 Aug 1993
*************************************************