Subject: WWII-L Digest - 24 Aug 1993 to 25 Aug 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 00:00:22 -0400

There are 13 messages totalling 557 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Addr: Term (2)
  2. USAAF 25 AUG 43
  3. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities
  4. Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit" (2)
  5. Lee's response
  6. Japanese war reparations and others
  7. War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita
  8. Internet Survey
  9. TAC: production/blitzkrieg
 10. TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing
 11. U-534

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Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 06:22:42 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

Richard:

FLAK is the shortened form of the German term for anti-aircraft artillery.

Flug-Abwehr-Kanone (is my spelling correct? I don't have my German-English
dictionary handy)

which in literal translation means aircraft defense cannon.

Hence, the fire put up by anti-aircraft guns by the Germans
was called FLAK by the aircrews.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 07:11:41 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 25 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
WEDNESDAY, 25 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  SE ASIA: Admiral Louis F Mountbatten is appointed Supreme Allied
Commander, Southeast Asia.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-25's, with fighter escort, bomb Kowloon
Docks at Hong Kong.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): US heavy bombers are assigned i
role of bombing important Luftwaffe targets in Operation STARKEY, designed
to contain enemy forces in the west to prevent their transfer to Eastern
Front, and to serve as a dress rehearsal in the Pas de Calais, France area
for the invasion of W Europe. The Allies hope to provoke the Luftwaffe into
a prolonged air battle.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 34A & 34B: Two locations in France are
targetted:
  1. 21 B-26's are dispatched to the power station at Rouen; all hit the
target at 1832 hours; 2 aircraft are damaged.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to Tricqueville Airfield; 31 hit the target
at 1834 hours; they claim 1-8-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-26's are damaged.
  HQ 45th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) arrives at Brampton Grange, England from
the US; it will remain at this station until Sep 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): B-24's bomb the marshalling yard
at Foggia, Italy.
  The 566th and 567th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 389th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), which have been operating from Bengasi, Libya with B-24's
since Jul 43, return to their base at Hethel, England.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): Around 135 B-17's
and 140 P-38's attack satellite airfields at Foggia, Italy. Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit trucks S of Sino-
poli, Italy.
  The 414th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
transfers form Pont-du-Fahs to Depienne, Tunisia with B-17's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 13 B-25's, along with 40+ US Navy dive bombers and an escort of
fighter aircraft, pound barge centers at Webster and Ringa Coves on New
Georgia Island. 6 B-24's, along with 24 fighters, hit Kahili Airfield on
Bougainville Island. Other P-40's strafe large motor vessels and a barge in
the NW part of the Slot.
  The 371st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
based on Espiritu Santo in the New Hebrides Islands begins operating from
Guadalcanal Island with B-24's; they will fly their first mission tomorrow.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
almost 100 B-24's, B-25's, and B-17's carry out an hour-long strike against
the Hansa Bay area, Nubia, and Awar, and nearby shipping; and small flights
of B-24's attack Finschhafen and hit a transport off New Hanover Island in
the Bismarck Archipelago. A-20's hit Gasmata Island off New Britain Island;
and B-25's bomb targets on Timor Island.
  HQ 433d Troop Carrier Group arrives at Port Moresby, New Guinea from the
US. They will remain at this station until Oct 44.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 07:44:30 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

I think FLAC might refer to

     Front
     Line
     Air [support]
     Controller

in this context (i.e., Vietnam).

But I am no expert on Vietnam . . .

Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 09:50:19 CDT
From:    Lee Short <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Lou Coatney wrote:
>Lest anyone be misled:  I should remind our readers that I very clearly
>  did not put (any) war crimes by our people against the Japanese "in the
>  same light."  If Lee Short implied otherwise, he might want to re-read
>  my original post.

I certainly didn't imply otherwise.  The extent of my original
comments on the subject were "I agree with this".  I made more
extensive comments on Japanese behavior at Bataan.  I don't see how
this could possibly be construed as "implying otherwise."  If you
think that my second post on the subject implied otherwise, I suggest
you reread it.

I feel kind of redundant posting this, but evidently things were not
as clear as I thought they were.

Lee

Lee Short   [email-masked]         This is the sort of English up with which
Software Janitor                 I will not put.
Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
Minneapolis, MN

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 10:21:03 EST
From:    Eden Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit"

Ron Babuka wrote wondering about defenses for officers who commit, or whose
men commit atrocities in the field. I can only speak for the American Army.

"I was only following orders" It is not permissible for an officer to obey any
illegal order. What is an illegal order? Well, should an officer be ordered to
kill prisoners, that order violates the Rules of War under the Geneva
Convention, to which the United STates is a signatory. The officer is not only
permitted to disregard that order, he is obliged to disobey it, and to prevent
others from carrying it out to the best of his ability, and to report the
incident to his chain of command immediately. In short, the "following orders"
defense is no longer allowed.

"I didn't know" If a commander truly did not know that soldiers under his
control had committed a war crime, he cannot, obviously, be held directly
responsible for that crime in a strictly legal sense. However, as a commander,
he is responsible for allowing the conditions to exist that make war crimes
possible (low morale, ignorance of the Law of War, poor leaders, etc.) and
therefore could be punished for the crimes in a non-judicial manner.

I do not know what kind of training the US Army gave its soldiers and officers
about the Laws of War during WWII, but the above reflects current attitudes.

CPT Steve Eden
USMA at West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 11:22:01 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lee's response

Thanks, Lee.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 11:30:44 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others" atrocit"

Steve,

     Thank you for your thoughtful response.  Judging from similar input
from "Bear" Barrett on a similar question I raised on VWAR-L, concern about
ethical/legal conduct ofin combat situations is cultivated at and appreciated by
is cultivated at and appreciated at  the Academy.

     This is heartening to see.

     What things were like against the Japanese, after 4 brutal years of
war, is hard for me to speculate.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 14:21:04 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and others

>Ron Babuka wrote wondering about defenses for officers who commit, or whose
>men commit atrocities in the field. I can only speak for the American Army.
>
>"I was only following orders" It is not permissible for an officer to obey any
>illegal order. What is an illegal order? Well, should an officer be ordered to
>kill prisoners, that order violates the Rules of War under the Geneva
>Convention, to which the United STates is a signatory. The officer is not only
>permitted to disregard that order, he is obliged to disobey it, and to prevent
>others from carrying it out to the best of his ability, and to report the
>incident to his chain of command immediately. In short, the "following orders"
>defense is no longer allowed.
>
>"I didn't know" If a commander truly did not know that soldiers under his
>control had committed a war crime, he cannot, obviously, be held directly
>responsible for that crime in a strictly legal sense. However, as a commander,
>he is responsible for allowing the conditions to exist that make war crimes
>possible (low morale, ignorance of the Law of War, poor leaders, etc.) and
>therefore could be punished for the crimes in a non-judicial manner.
>
>I do not know what kind of training the US Army gave its soldiers and officers
>about the Laws of War during WWII, but the above reflects current attitudes.
>
>CPT Steve Eden
>USMA at West Point
>

To add on to Steve Eden's excellent reply; at the end of WWII, Japanese
Generals Homma and Yamashita were judged guilty and executed by Douglas
MacArthur for war crimes by their subordinates when any evidence that the
generals knew about them or had any control over them was tenuous at best.
Despite this flaw, the Supreme Court upheld the convictions by a 7-2 vote. So
even if a commander doesn't know about war crimes that occur, there is a legal
precedent to hold him responsible anyway.

                                        LTC Conrad Crane
                                        Also from USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 14:34:55 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War crimes precedents:  Homma and Yamashita

A sobering amplification, Conrad.  But are you saying the trials and
  executions of H and Y for ultimate responsibility -- knowing or not --
  was a VALID precedent?

Pardon my tossing you a "live one" -- it WAS the Supreme One who put them
  on/in the dock.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 15:52:50 -0400
From:    William Milheim <[email-masked]>
Subject: Internet Survey

                              INTERNET SURVEY

                     Adele F. Bane <[email-masked]>
                 William D. Milheim <[email-masked]>
              The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley
________________________________________________________________________________
This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the
Internet that are most used by the academic community.  You have been chosen as
a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate.
Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published
later this year.  Please answer all survey questions.
________________________________________________________________________________

INTERNET INSIGHTS:  A Survey

We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself:

        How many years of computer experience do you have?      _____
        How long have you used e-mail of any type?              _____
        How long have you been an Internet user?                _____

Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified.  They are
electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer.  An
estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily.
This survey explores the use of each of these services.

1.  E-Mail Use:  How often do you make these connections?

           (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Private Email:                                  _____

                Discussion group(s):                            _____
                        (Specify)

                Usenet (or Netnews)                             _____

                Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s):           _____
                        (Specify)

2.  Telnet Use:  How often do you connect to remote databases?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Games/Simulations:              _____
                Library Catalogs:               _____
        .       Specialized Databases:          _____

2a.  How frequently do you connect these Internet sources:

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                American Mathematical Society BBS               _____
                American Psychological Assn.                    _____
                CARL                                            _____
                CITADEL                                         _____
                Cleveland FreeNet                               _____
                Dartmouth Dante                                 _____
                Dialog                                          _____
                Dow-Jones News Retrieval                        _____
                Dranet                                          _____
                EDIN                                            _____
                EPA                                             _____
                ERIC                                            _____
                FEDIX/MOLIS                                     _____
                GenBank                                         _____
                Geographic Name Server                          _____
                International Centre for Distance Learning      _____
                ISAAC                                           _____
                Lexis                                           _____
                Market/Business Report                          _____
                National Education BBS                          _____
                Netfind                                         _____
                Nexis                                           _____
                Oceanic Information Center                      _____
                OCLC                                            _____
                PENpages                                        _____
                RLIN                                            _____
                SpaceLink                                       _____
                STIS                                            _____
                TC Forum                                        _____
                Weather Underground                             _____
                Webster Dictionary                              _____

                Other  (Please specify):

3.  FTP Use:  How often do you download files from FTP archive sites?

           (Insert appropriate number beside each item)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Computers and Academic Freedom                  _____
                EASI                                            _____
                History                                         _____
                LIBSOFT                                         _____
                Lyric and Discography                           _____
                NASA                                            _____
                Online Libraries Directory                      _____
                Science Education                               _____
                SIMTEL20                                        _____
                SUMEX-AIM                                       _____
                U.S. Supreme Court Decisions                    _____
                Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives          _____

                Other (Please Specify):

4.      Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet.
        How often do you use these network guides?

           (Insert appropriate number beside items below.)

        1=Not at all                    4=About 2-3 times a month
        2=A few times                   5=Once a week
        3=About once a month            6=More than once a week

                Archie                                          _____
                Campus-wide Information Systems                 _____
                Gopher                                          _____
                WAIS (Wide-area information servers)            _____
                WWW (WorldWideWeb)                              _____
                Veronica                                        _____
                HYTELNET                                        _____
                Other (Please specify):

Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users.  Please comment on
the following:

5.      The importance of the Internet to your work?

6.      Advantages the Internet offers over other resources?

7.      Barriers to using the Internet?

8.      Your most memorable use of the Internet?

9  These questions will help us interpret the results of this study:

        Title:  ________________________________________
        Affiliation:  __________________________________
        Discipline:  ___________________________________
        Research Interest(s):____________________________________
        _________________________________________________________

Please return the completed survey to: [email-masked]
by September 3, 1993.

If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your
e-mail address here:  _____________________.

            :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 16:30:04 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: production/blitzkrieg

 From: "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
> I think WW2 German industry, with a good supply of raw resources, an
> undamaged transport system, and lack of bomber harrasment, could have been
> double what it was. Thus production losss > gun losses. It comes down to
> what you think German industry could have acheived.

I recently posted this info to the Usenet newsgroup alt.war and thought
it might shed some light on how the German economy may have fared if
there had been no strategic bombing.  Despite strategic bombing, Germany
managed to nearly double its armor production for each year after 1942
(once its economy was converted to a war footing).  Also note that the
quality of the types of AFVs produced was better than their predecessors.

The question remains: Would production figures have been significantly
higher if there had been no strategic bombing campaign?

Below is a table of German armor production [1]:

Type                              1940   1941   1942   1943   1944
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Pzkw I (total built from 1933-41) 2000      0      0      0      0
Pzkw II (total prod 1936-1940)   ~1000    233    306     77      7
Pzkw III                           895   1845   2555    349      0
Pzkw 38(t) (Czech)                 275    698    195     87    125
Pzkw IV                            280    480    965   3073   3366
Pzkw V                               0      0      0   1850   3964
Pzkw VI Tiger I                      0      0     78    647    623
Pzkw VI King Tiger                   0      0      0      0    379
-------------------------------------------------------------------
StuG III/StuG IV                   184    550    828   3319   7628
JgPz 38                              0      0      0      0   1598
JgPz V                               0      0      0      0    215
JgPz VI                              0      0      0      2     51
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                           ~4634   3806   4927   9404  17956

[1] "Deutsche Panzer: 1917-1945", Uwe Feist, Aero Publishers, 1978, pg. 69
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 17:53:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC/STRAT Strategic Bombing

Is Mr. Barone's post a signal for open-season on WWII Strategic Bombing?

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Aug 1993 20:36:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <[email-masked]>
Subject: U-534

> The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
> and if so, what they found.  Except for damage to the tower by fishing

Network News reported the German sub was only partially searched as of
the 25th and so far the most important find consisted of 100 bottles
of German wine!  A coupe of other items also, but must have been even
less important.  Can't remember what they were.
---
 . 1st 1.11 #1611 . [email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 24 Aug 1993 to 25 Aug 1993
*************************************************