Subject: WWII-L Digest - 19 Aug 1993 to 20 Aug 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 00:00:30 -0400

There are 8 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 20 AUG 43
  2. WWII Stat Request (2)
  3. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory
  4. Clip-Art
  5. weap: destroiers
  6. WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine
  7. USAAF 21-22 AUG 43

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 07:14:39 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 20 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
FRIDAY, 20 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS: Army Air Forces, India-Burma
Sector, China-Burma-India Theater is activated at New Delhi, India.
Lieutenant General George E Stratemeyer assumes command. Components include
the Tenth Air Force, China-Burma-India Air Service Command (Provisional),
China-Burma-India Training Unit (Provisional) and several lesser units.

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): X Air Force Service Command (AFSC)
personnel and organizations are absorbed by CBI ASC (Prov), see above.
Brigadier General Robert C Oliver, Commanding General X AFSC, becomes
Commanding General CBI ASC (Prov).

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-25's, with fighter escort,
bomb Tien Ho Airfield at Canton; they claim 5 interceptors shot down. 15
P-40's intercept 21 fighters over Kweilin; 2 P-40's and 2 Zekes are shot
down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The air echelon of the
22d Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine Group, arrives at
Dunkeswell, England from the US with B-24's. The ground echelon remains in
the US, then moves to Utah in Sep 43 where it is inactivated.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 66th Fighter Wing transfers
from Duxford, England to Sawston, England where it will remain until Oct 45.
  HQ 482d Bombardment Group (Pathfinder) and it's 812th, 813th and 814th
Bombardment Squadrons (Pathfinder) are activated at Alconbury, England
where they will remain until May/Jun 45. The 812th and 813th, equipped with
B-17's, will fly their first pathfinder mission on 27 Sep 43 and 24 Sep
respectively; the 814th, equipped with B-24's, will fly it's first path-
finder mission on 11 Jan 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): P-40's strafe and bomb shipping
off the Italian toe and communications targets on land.  Hits are scored on
bridges, railway yards, and railway cars.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's hit the Capua and Aversa marshal-
ling yards, while B-25's bomb the Benevento marshalling yard, and P-40's
attack the airfield at Monserrato, Sardinia; Northwest African Tactical Air
Force (NATAF) fighters hit road and railway at Gioia and trucks near Locri
during missions along the E and W coasts of the Italian toe.
  HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and it's 84th and 85th Bombardment
Squadrons (Light) transfer with A-20's from Torrente Comunelli to Gerbini,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): HQ XIII Bomber
Command transfers from Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands to
Guadalcanal Island in the Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
24 B-24's, escorted by 46 P-38's, hit Boram Airfield in the late morning;
P-38's claim 19 fighters shot down. A-20's bomb Lae and hit the Salamaua
area where enemy forces have abandoned positions on Mount Tambu and
Komiatum Ridge and are manning last-ditch defensive position at Salamaua.
B-25's strafe barges near Cape Gloucester on New Britain Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:06:00 EDT
From:    ROBERT GANNON <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Stat Request

I'm in need of a few WWII figures showing naval destruction,
and for some reason my references don't help.  Can anyone out
there supply:

* The total, worldwide naval destruction (in either tons
     or vessels?

* Total destruction of Axis & Allied ships (if possible,
     broken down by country, but that's not necessary)?

* Loss of submarines by countries other than U.S. Germany
     Italy and Japan?

My eternal thanks.
======================================================================
Robert Gannon              |  Bitnet:    RHG@PSUVM
35 Burrowes Bldg.          |  Internet:  [email-masked]
Penn State                 |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or 355-0943
University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:32:56 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Maneuver Theory

Scott Hannon writes:

> Shawn Robert Woodford wrote:
> > For those with a certain fascination for the "Wehrmacht Mystique" I would
> > like to point out that 5 of every 6 German combat casualties in World War
> > II came on the Eastern Front.  The Germans were defeated in World War II
> > by the Soviets, plain and simple--and with a combat doctrine far more
> > sound than blitzkrieg.
>
> I disagree at least somewhat with two ideas/opinions expressed above
> (1): The USSR defeated Germany.

This discussion is getting nowhere because it's clear that Shawn and Scott
have different meanings.

I've often said pretty much what Shawn said; "The USSR beat Germany, and we
helped."  I put it that way primarily for shock value; Americans (and, I
believe, British, but I'm willing to be corrected) are taught that *we* won
the war almost single-handedly.  This was particularly true in the 50's and
60's, when the Eastern Front was little-studied and enignmatic.  (On this
list and at other times when I know I'm talking to a knowledgable group,
that shock value isn't needed.)

Scott's point is, of course, correct.  The USSR did not defeat Germany
alone, and might well have lost without British and American aid.  Neither
did America's contribution, alone, win the war.

(On the other hand, if I *had* to attribute the victory to a single nation,
it would be the USSR.  It's just that the attribution would be
meaningless.)

>  a) industrial resource shortage: Germany was out-produced.
>     Apart from Gemany's limited natural
>     resources, the Allied naval blockade and Combined Strategic Bombing
>     campaigns were also a part of this. As was sabotage and destruction
>     before capture of those resources in conquered territory.

This is an example of the way western histories tend to present facts in
such a way as to inflate the importance of American/British roles. (I am
NOT saying that this is intentional misrepresentation, mind you!  Simply
that these facts, out of context, give the wrong impression.)

Germany was indeed outproduced, but the production losses because of the
blockade, bombing, and sabotage are outweighed by the production losses due
to Soviet guns.  For all the tanks we bombed in the factories and on the
railroads, the Russians blew up a lot more with gunfire.  (In other words,
if they hadn't been fighting the USSR, Germany wouldn't have been
outproduced even with our strategic actions.)

> Now on to the Shawn's other opinion:
> (2): The USSR's triumph was due to a better combat doctrine.
>
> I disagree. The USSR won battles because they overwhelmed the enemy with
> firepower and numbers.

Which is a pretty effective combat doctrine, no?  8-)  I think the argument
here is meaningless until we all know what "combat doctrine" means.

I would argue that by 1945 the Soviets had an excellent combat doctrine;
the optimal one, perhaps, given their raw materials.  The Red Army soldier
wasn't the same man as a Wehrmacht trooper; he was less educated, poorer
trained, and given less autonomy.  The USSR wasn't the same nation as
Germany; it made more tanks but less trucks.

So, what does "combat doctrine" mean?  If it means "best utilization of
the army", the Germans had the better doctrine; given an equal number of
men and tanks, they'd win.  If it means "best utilization of your
resources," it's a different story, and the Soviets are in the running.
They forged a combat doctrine that allowed them to defeat an enemy who was
man-for-man their better.

To understand my point, think historically; how many armies have been
unable to do what the USSR did?  History is loaded with examples of nations
who were, despite superiority, unable to overwhelm an enemy with firepower
and numbers.  Persians against the Greeks; barbarians versus the Romans;
Union versus Confederacy (pre-Grant), tribesmen versus the British; there
are hundreds of examples.  At first glance, it's easy to discount the
Soviet tactics as something any idiot could do, but that's a mistake.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 12:50:47 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Clip-Art

I am looking for clip art for the Douglas C-54/DC-4 aircraft.  Anyone know
where I can get it?

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 11:57:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Stat Request

>
> I'm in need of a few WWII figures showing naval destruction,
> and for some reason my references don't help.  Can anyone out
> there supply:

  Most of what you need is in WARSHIP LOSSES OF WORLD WAR TWO, David Brown,
Arms and Armour Press (UK) or Sterling Publishing Co. (USA).  If you can't
find a copy, send me a note. Naval Historical Center gives it two flippers up.

Larry J

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 13:10:18 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: weap: destroiers

Sivlio, do you need specifications or operational history or both?  I can
help with the US destroyer, but I'm clueless on the Japanese ships. What
reference are you working from? Translational differences may make it hard
to determine the ships names.

Larry J

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Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 13:35:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Mysteries/Soviet Doctrine

I have little to add to William Thacker's keyboard eloquence, except to
reiterate my point that if operational and tactical excellence were all that
were needed to win wars, Nazi Germany would most likely still exist.  What the
Nazis could not do was integrate their combat effectiveness into an effective
strategy, which MUST take into account material imbalances.  Soviet military
thinkers came away from the First World War and their Civil War with this
firmly planted
in their minds and devised a combat doctrine synchronized with their

strategic realities.  German military thinkers chose to delude themselves as to
the strategic realities of their defeat, chosing instead to focus on their
operational and tactical shortcomings.  Hence, "blitzkrieg" represented a fatal
lack of rationalization of tactical and operational means with strategic ends--
this is the basic reason why the Germans lost the war.

Facile appreciations of German maneuver theory can be very dangerous--I believe
the US Army did itself no favors after Vietnam by becoming fascinated by it.
There is a great deal to be learned by studying the Wehrmacht, and much that
can be adapted in a search for optimal combat effectiveness, but ultimately
blitzkrieg can only be regarded as a theoretical dead end.  It is too bad that
Cold War prejudices still run so deep as to preculde objective consideration of
Soviet miltary thought, which was far more fertile and imaginitive than that in
Germany.

Lest anyone jump to the obvious conclusion, I add the caveat that there is
not necessarily a correlation between military thought and performance on the
battlefield, although the two are very much related, and must be considered
together.

For anyone interested, I recommend a three volume set edited by Williamson
Murray and Allan Millett out of Ohio State titled *Military Effectiveness*
for a series of essays on the effectiveness of the belligerents from World War
I through World War II--it illuminates the question in all aspects from
political effectiveness through tactical effectiveness.

On the question of the "Wehrmacht Mystique," I would reccomend one look at an
article by Daniel Hughes in Military Review (Dec. '86), "Abuses of German
Military History;"  Roger A. Beaumont, "On the Wehrmacht Mystique," Military
Review (July '86); Martin van Creveld, "On Learning From the Wehrmacht and
other Things," Military Review (Jan.'88); and Roger A. Beaumont, "Wehrmacht
Mystique Revisited," Military Review (Feb. 1990).

spasibo e doz'vedanye

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State (soon to be King's College, UofLondon)
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 15:32:54 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 21-22 AUG 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
SATURDAY, 21 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): During the Aleutian Campaign, 3 Jun 42 to 21
Aug 43, the Eleventh Air Force destroyed 69 aircraft, sank 21 and damaged
29 ships, and lost 29 of its own aircraft.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 14 B-24's, 7 B-25's, and 11
P-40's attack docks and the airfield at Hankow; a large force of fighters,
estimated at 50+, attacks the B-24 formation, shooting down 2 of the
B-24's; gunners on the B-24's claim 40+ fighters shot down. In the Hengyang
area, 19 P-40's battle 33 airplanes, shooting down 5 Zekes. S of Changsha,
9 P-38's clash with 12 Zekes, shooting down 3.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The air echelon of the
6th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine Group, arrives at
Dunkeswell, England from Gander Lake, Newfoundland with B-24's. The ground
echelon remains in Newfoundland and moves to Utah in Sep 43 where it is
inactivated on 30 Oct 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): B-24's attack a railroad
station, marshalling yard, and air depot at Cancello Arnone, Italy.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's and B-17's bomb marshalling
yards at Villa Literno and Aversa; the P-38 escort also attacks Aversa;
NASAF aircraft claim 20+ enemy fighters shot down; Northwest African Tacti-
cal Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit traffic on the Bovalino-Bagnara
road.
  HQ 42d Bombardment Wing (Medium) transfers to Ariana, Tunisia where
groups are assigned.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's and
fighters strafe barges in Doveli Cove and Marquana and Paraso Bays in the
Central Solomons.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's pound But and Dagua Airfields; B-17's bomb the Bogadjim area; and
single B-24's hit the Salamaua area and targets of opportunity at Malahang.
B-24's carry out a damaging strike against Pombelaa in the Celebes Island.

SUNDAY, 22 AUGUST 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 P-40's bomb Japanese HQ and a
supply dump at Tengchung, and strafe trucks and troops in the area; 2
others strafe road traffic between Tengchung and Lungling.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), Fourteenth Air Force, transfers
from Bishnupur, India to Kunming, China with F-5's. The flight which has
been operating from Kweilin since Jul will remain there until Sep 43.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command
Missions 30A and 30B: Two Luftwaffe airfields in France are the targets:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Beaumont-le-Roger Airfield; 35 hit the
target at 2110 hours; they claim 3-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-26 is lost
and 8 are damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 6 MIA.
  2. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Poix/Nord Airfield; they all return
early when they are unable to contact the escort fighters, RAF Spitfires.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Ninth Air Force): All fighter and medium bomber
groups of the Ninth Air Force are transferred to the Twelfth Air Force,
i.e.:
    12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Gerbini, Sicily with B-25's,
    57th Fighter Group and it's 64th, 65th and 66th Fighter Squadrons on
Sicily with P-40's,
    79th Fighter Group and it's 85th, 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons on
Sicily with P-40's,
    324th Fighter Group and it's 314th, 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons
at El Haouaria, Tunisia with P-40's, and
    340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 486th, 487th, 488th and
489th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Comiso, Sicily with B-25's.

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): Northwest African
Strategic Air Force (NASAF) B-26's, with an escort of Northwest African
Tactical Air Force (NATAF) A-36's, bomb the marshalling yard at Salerno,
Italy; they claim 26 enemy fighters destroyed. NATAF fighters on armored
reconnaissance hit motor transport S of the Locri-Gioia Tauro, Italy area
and NE of Bagnara, Italy.
  HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Ponte Olivo to Gerbini,
Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's and US
Navy dive bombers, escorted by fighter aircraft, bomb barge centers on the
W coast of Vella Lavella Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's strike
Dili on Timor Island. In New Guinea, as a result of the air offensive
against Wewak and satellite airfields, Japanese airpower on New Guinea is
sufficiently neutralized for 4 Allied destroyers to proceed along the coast
from Milne Bay to Finschhafen; after bombarding Finschhafen during the
night of 22/23 Aug, the warships return to Milne Bay.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Aug 1993 to 20 Aug 1993
*************************************************