Subject: WWII-L Digest - 23 Aug 1993 to 24 Aug 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 00:00:23 -0400

There are 19 messages totalling 880 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 24 AUG 41
  2. 2nd Marine Division
  3. Hnet Guide to HNSource at U Kansas
  4. Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities (9)
  5. U-534
  6. blitzkrieg...again
  7. Addr: Term (3)
  8. Blitzkrieg...again
  9. TROUBLE: adminb.rferl.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 07:24:00 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 24 AUG 41

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCE
TUESDAY, 24 AUGUST 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (AAF Antisubmarine Command): The Army Air Forces
Antisubmarine Command is dedesignated I Bomber Command and reassigned to
the First Air Force after the Army Air Forces and US Navy reach an agree-
ment under which the Army Air Forces withdraws from antisubmarine opera-
tions. During the remainder of Aug 43, the following squadrons cease flying
ASW missions:
  8th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, based at
Miami Army Airfield, Florida but operating from Trinidad,
  14th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing, at Camp
Edwards Army Airfield, Falmouth, Massachusetts,
  24th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing, at
Westover Field, Ayr, Massachusetts, and
  25th Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), 26th Antisubmarine Wing, Jackson-
ville Municipal Airport, Florida.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 B-24's and 6 B-25's, escorted
by 22 P-40's and P-38's, bomb airfields at Hankow and Wuchang; 4 B-24's are
lost; they claim 24 enemy interceptors shot down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 86
Part I: An air depot and airfields in France are targetted:
  1. 110 B-17's are dispatched to the Villacoublay Air Depot; 86 hit the
target at 1800-1805 hours; they claim 1-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 64 aircraft
are damaged; casualties are 10 WIA.
  2. 42 B-17's are dispatched to the Conches and Evreux/Fauville Airfields;
22 hit the target at 1844-1858 hours; they claim 0-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft;
1 B-17 is lost and 15 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 9 WIA.
  3. 35 of 36 B-17's fly a diversion without incident.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 86 Part II: 85 B-17's, which had flown to
North Africa after attacking Regensburg, Germany on 17 Aug, are dispatched
to the Bordeaux/Merignac Airfield; 58 hit the target at 1157-1200 hours;
they claim 3-3-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-17's are lost, 2 are damaged
beyond repair and 40 damaged; casualties are 30 MIA. 9 B-17's returned to
North Africa after encountering difficulties.
  VIII Air Support Command Missions 33A & 33B: B-26's fly 2 diversions for
the B-17's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  WESTERN MEDITERRANEAN (Northwest African Air Force): In Italy, Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit a railroad tunnel
and cruiser offshore at Sibari, tracks and buildings at Castrovillari, and
the town area at Sibari; and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force air-
planes strafe motor transport N of Reggio di Calabria
and provide withdrawal cover for the NATAF fighter-bombers.
  HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Kairouan, Tunisia to Castel-
vetrano, Sicily.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 25 B-24's, with fighter escort, bomb Papatura Fa Island and attack
the E shore of Ringa Cove on New Georgia Island. P-39's strafe barges at
Kakasa on Choiseul Island.
  The 23d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
which has been operating from Guadalcanal Island with B-17's since Mar 43,
returns to it's base on Espiritu Santo Island in the New Hebrides Islands
for R&R

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's thoroughly pound Wewak and bomb Salamaua; and B-25's bomb Larat and
barges E of Wotap.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 10:41:00 EDT
From:    "Stephen R. Guilmet (617) 552-4890" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 2nd Marine Division

I have a friend who served with the 2nd Marine Division in WWII.
Recently, he received the medals that he earned, from St. Louis.
I am planning to build a case to display these medals along with
the U.S. flag, Marine Corps flag and 2nd Mar Div patch.  I also
want to have an engraved brass plate made for each of the invasions
that he participated in.  Could someone please supply me with the
dates that the Marines would have been on these islands so I can
include them on the engraving.

        Tarawa  -
        Tinian  -
        Saipan  -
        Okinawa -

I am NOT subscribed to this list.  Please send any correspondence to
me via private E-Mail.  My address is GUILMET@BCVMCMS.

Thank you for any assistance you can give me!

Semper Fi!

Stephen R. Guilmet
Boston College

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 09:11:38 -0500
From:    h-teach listserv mail account <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hnet Guide to HNSource at U Kansas

Mod. Note: Here is the HNet Guide to using HNSourse at the University of
Kansas.

     from your mainframe: use TELNET
     telnet   hnsource.cc.ukans.edu
     LOGIN AS history
     YOU GET HNSOURCE:

                           The University of Kansas

  Login as 'kufacts' for  access to the Campus Wide Information System.
           'history' for history network resources
           'ex-ussr' for former Soviet Union info
  login: history

  Enter a terminal type: [vt100]
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +               HNServer              +
             +                                     +
             +    The Central Information Server   +
             +                                     +
             +           FOR HISTORIANS            +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

                  * HOW TO USE THIS SYSTEM

                  * HNSERVER AND THE HISTORY NETWORK

                  * BIBLIOGRAPHY: HYTELNET AND INTERNET GUIDES

                  * RESOURCES: DATA BASES

                  * SCHOLARLY EXCHANGE: DISCUSSION LISTS

                  * NEWS, BOOKS, AND WEATHER

                  * HNSERVER NEWS
      =====

             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                       +
             +   HNServer AND THE HISTORY NETWORK    +
             +                                       +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

                  * ABOUT HNServer

                  * ABOUT THE HISTORY NETWORK

                  * THE HISTORY NETWORK CHARTER AND ORGANIZATION

                  * ABOUT H-NET

             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +          Research Resources         +
             +          FTP and Gopher Sites       +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

                * Americas and Africa

                * Europe and Asia

                * Services to Educators
                        (under construction. advice accepted. 8^)
                * Bibliographies and Texts

                * Electronic History Journals

                * Software/Shareware FTP archives
      ==============================================
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +         Americas and Africa         +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * RA Mississippi State University History FTP site
                The Mississippi State historical archives (ftp.msstate.edu
                ftp site) is provided as a scholarly service of Mississippi
                State University. Its collection specializes in the Americas
                and Africa.

        * BYRD Marshall University History FTP site
                The history FTP archive on byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152)
                welcomes all types of historical documents, databases, papers,
                reviews or other materials. Most of the material at this time
                focuses on political and military/diplomatic history.

        * CONSTITUTIONAL DOCUMENTS     From Cleveland Freenet
                This data base contains full English-language texts of
                documents relative to to the United States Constitution.

        * WSDB
                Women's Studies Database from the University of Maryland,
                College Park.

        * NAFTA
                Draft of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)
                via the ariel.unm.edu ftp site.

        * Telnet to the U.S. Geographical Database.

        * UT-LANIC
                University of Texas Latin American Information Center

        * Clinton White House
                Clinton White House electronic publications and public
                access e-mail instructions.

 ==============================
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +          Europe and Asia            +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * CLIONET
                CLIONET is a gopher server maintained by the History
                of James Cook University, Australia. It houses the
                electronic journal CLIONET and a data base of 19th-
                century sources for Australian history.

        * COOMBSQUEST
                COOMBSQUEST is an information server maintained by the
                Australian National University, with specializations in
                linguistics prehistory, Oceania, and Aboriginal studies.
                Offers extensive connections to other relevant sites.

         DARTMOUTH DANTE PROJECT....

        * MALIN University of Kansas History FTP site
                MALIN is maintained by the Department of History and the
                Academic Computer Services of the University of Kansas. It
                includes a wide variety of materials for the use of hist-
                orians, primarily on Europe and Asia.

        * USSR ARCHIVES University of Missouri at Kansas City FTP site.
                Databases of archives of several discussion lists relating
                to Soviet and Eastern European history during and after the
                attempted coup of 1991, and other Soviet materials.

        * EX-USSR ARCHIVES University of Kansas FTP site
                Leaders of ex-USSR republics, e-mail addresses to ex-USSR,
                listservers and news sources relating to the nations of the
                former Soviet Union.

        * GHETA  University of Groningen (NL) FTP site
                Groningen Historical Electronic Text Archive is located at
                the Faculty of Arts of the University of Groningen in the
                Netherlands. It is assembling a data-base of indices and
                texts of Dutch historical journals as a continuing project.

        * Holocaust and Fascism Archives
                Victoria FreeNet (select 4-Government Building).

        * ROME REBORN U.S. Library of Congress FTP site
                A large collection of catalogues, lists, descriptive
                materials and graphics files of the recent Library of Con-
                gress/Vatican Library exhibit, "Rome Reborn."

        * WORLD SYSTEMS University of Colorado FTP site
                Contains papers, syllabi, bibliographies and other materials
                for the study of the world systems approach to history and
                economics.

        * RENDANCE
                The Renaissance Dance Archives, containing bibliographies and
                e-texts relating to dance in Renaissance Europe.

        * BIRON The Essex Social Research Council Archive
                Full search facilities for this primarily statistical archive.
                (NOTE:login: biron password: norib>

        * ECHO--European database
                (not yet in full operation)

         ====================================

             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
             +                                     +
             +      Bibliographies and Texts       +
             +                                     +
             + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

        * U.S. National Archives and Records
                Center for Electronic Records (not yet working)

        * Catalogue of Projects in Electronic Text
                Georgetown University Center for Text and Technology

        * GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS (USA)
                A searchable database of U.S. Government publications.

        * PERIODICAL LITERATURE       Offered by CARL
        =====and there's more in HNSERV: explore!======

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 13:25:00 EST
From:    "W.C. \"Rusty\" DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

>     I know WAR WITHOUT MERCY alludes to such acts in general terms, but do
>you know of any specific, on-the-ground, "at our mercy" incidents of
>American atrocities against civilians in the Pacific?

I have never found any references to specific acts of this sort, although
as you mentioned, WAR WITHOUT MERCY makes some statements about supposed
incidents.

>     While our war crimes in the Pacific pale by comparison with the
>Japanese, we do have an obligation to acknowledge them, especially if
>the Japanese are finally willing to do so.

I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
directly disobeying orders).  It is clear that events like the
Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
Japanese high Command, but the beheading of the Doolittle's Raiders
may have been the act of an individual commander.

It appears that the massacre of Chinese civilians was a direct policy
of the Japanese command staff.

bill
U of Pitt

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 12:48:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-534

>
> The report I have does not say anything about them opening up the sub
> and if so, what they found.  Except for damage to the tower by fishing
> trawlers, the sub is in nearly intact.

  I imagine the RAF bomber did a little more damage than the trawlers :-).

  Keep us updated on the U-boat, please!

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner [email-masked]
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 14:10:51 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: blitzkrieg...again

Shawn Robert Woodford writes:
> Contrary to popular myth, there was
> NO such thing as blitzkrieg, at least as defined by an German military
> literature from 1919-1945.  The name blitzkrieg itself is no where to be
> found. It was coined by an American journalist in September 1939.

Hey, you're the one who started all this with your "...with a COMBAT DOCTRINE
better than BLITZKRIEG" comment!   :-)

The term has entered common usage, and refers to what the Germans did in
1939, 1940, and (usually) 1941. Yeah, fuzzy....hence my confussion and
"no they didn't" reply.

Also, perhaps blitzkrieg wasn't really suitable for writting up in field
manuals. Too new/secret/experimental for 1939, and no longer workable by
1942.

I disagree with the comment of under/bad analysis of German WW2 history. It
has been pretty much beaten to death from almost every angle IMO. Otherwise
there is little in Shawn Ws post I'd disagree with. But I do have a few
comments...

> The main lesson the German General Staff brought away from World War I was
> that they failed due to a lack of sufficient resources.

This is also my understanding of why Germany lost. The blockade was nearing
the starvation phase (a major factor in declining German popular support
for the war), coupled with severe battlefield casualties.

> Because Germany could never produce enough tanks to
> fully equip more than about 10% of their army, they had to rely on a way of
> winning that de-emphasized pitched battle.

Yes, unlike the UK which was horseless by late 1939, the Germans relied
primarily on horses until the end. There is a "motorization myth"
surrounding WW2...especially WRT German operations.

[The Germans had two lines of thought on strategy:]
> deep penetrations relying on
> speed and confusion to disrupt the enemy--the cavalry approach; and the
> more orthodox principle of encirclement, battle and annihilation

> the Panzer divisions were set up in
> such a way that maximized maneuver over battle.

Right. It was unrealistic to expect Germany to be able to go entirely the
"cavalry" approach. But if that motorized 10% were kept together (in Pz and
PG divisions), they could try out some of the mobile warfare ideas when
operating as a supplement to the mass of the German army (leg infantry).
The allies were inclined to parcel the tanks/mech out amoung the leg units,
thereby dilluting their effectiveness.

> As the war progressed they
> rarely possessed enough tanks to pack a sufficient wallop...
[plus little SP artillery and mech infantry, so the tanks in the spearhead
fought alone]

BTW, this is a major reason the Pz IVD came out...basically a howitzer tank
for the tank regiments.

> the Panzer divisions were as much tied to railroads for supply as the vast
> numbers of German infantry divisions.
> These factors...
> ...derived from weaknesses in German military theory brought about
> by a faulty analysis of the causes of their WWI defeat, and a decided
> failure in the Hitler era to link military ends with industrial means.

This is where I'm getting confused. Are you saying here the German opinion
that their WW1 defeat was due to a resource shortage was wrong?
(I'd agree with the 2nd half: Hitler's objectives exceeded his means)

It seems to me Germany chose the correct approach: avoid a long war which
it assumed it might well lose again. Germany failed to do so, got the long
war and lost it. But the objective of "blitzkrieg" was to fight a war to
destroy the enemy as soon as possible, before attrition and resource
shortages could make a difference. I'd say this WAS based upon examining
the industrial (and social) means. German's limited raw resources meant
matching the production of a combined enemy was unfeasible.
[example: Pre-Barbarossa, the USSR was a major supplier of oil to Germany.
Not smart to fight a long war with your oil supplier. Hmmm, I guess the
Japanese were thinkng the same thing about long wars.]

IMO, the main problem with this idea was that it didn't work against the
USSR as planned, not that it was a bad idea given the info at hand to the
German General Staff. The intelligence reports on what would be involved
to defeat the USSR were a major blunder. Given historical hindsight, we
can see Germany's mistakes, but I think dismissing the strategic concept
as fatally flawwed is going a bit overboard. Obviously it could work
against some of Germany's enemys.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 13:27:52 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <[email-masked]>
Subject: Addr: Term

Can someone tell me what the term FLAK (or FLAC or FLACK) means?
A Vietnam veteran who spent time in Cambodia "spotting targets for
air strikes" told me he was a FLAK (sp?). Is this a new term or
did FLAKs exist in WWII? I assume it is some time of special
forces designation, but he did say he was not a Ranger. Thanks.
***************************************************************
[email-masked]
Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 14:00:38 CDT
From:    Lee Short <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

bill wrote:
>I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
>were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
>individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
>directly disobeying orders).

I agree with this.

>It is clear that events like the
>Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
>Japanese high Command,

This does not fit in with my understanding of the events at Bataan.
As I remember, that decision was strictly the prerogative of the local
commander.  I also remember there being some discussion that the
deaths were largely due to negligence, rather than specific intent.
Could you provide references for your view?

I'll readily admit that there were plenty of examples of atrocities
that were results of policy decisions high up in Japanese military
circles, but I wasn't under the impression that Bataan was one of
them.

Lee

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:16:54 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Bill D writes:
> I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
> were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
> individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
> directly disobeying orders).

Good point. Whatever crimes a few men out in the field do is not directly
the fault of the entire army or its policy. (In fact, it is frequently in
the best interest of the army to punish such war crimes for the purposes
of maintaining disipline.) Failure to investigate/punish known war crimes
makes the army part of the crime.

> It is clear that events like the
> Bataan death march were the result of a policy decision within the
> Japanese high Command, but the beheading of the Doolittle's Raiders
> may have been the act of an individual commander.

Actually, I think this example might be backwards. You can get a lot of
debate about the Bataan Death March. It appears to have been a mistake in
estimating the resources necessary to move the POWs, and their condition.
Not enough food and transport was provide, and the journey was too
strenuous for their weakened condition. But plenty of individual crimes
of sadism occured.

As for the Doolittle raiders, I think it was policy to collect them, try
them as criminals, and (as they were to be found guilty) executed them.
The Chinese civilians were very harshly punished for abetting the escape
of some raiders. I forget the number, but it was like tens of thousands
murdered.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 17:50:43 -0230
From:    Miguel Borges <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

On Tue, 24 Aug 1993, Lee Short wrote:

> bill wrote:
> >I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
> >were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
> >individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
> >directly disobeying orders).
>
> I agree with this.

I don't.  Not the way it is stated anyway.

So the Nazi leadership is responsible for the death of Jewish civilians,
but the men that actually carried out the orders aren't?  Or am I
mis-reading what you guys mean?

\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /
 \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \(Carlos) Miguel Borges \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/
 /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  [email-masked] \  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \/  \

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:53:22 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

'Agreed about the need to differentiate between policy and local impulse.
     On the other hand, principled distinctions can get fuzzy in that kind
  of total war, and it is always hard to tell (afterwards) how high the
  impulse -- or indifference -- was.

Any information would be appreciated.

I hear the new fellow tapped for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is Polish(-
  American).  I wonder what his feelings are about Katyn and the political
  victimization of the officer corps.

Lou Coatney,
  WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:39:47 CDT
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

If my memory hasn't failed me, FLAK means FLugzeug Abwehr Kanone (anti-
aircraft cannon).  That is my ubderstanding of it.  Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:50:11 EDT
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Maybe there are some ex-military men out there who can answer this question
but my assumption was that under war-time conditions, that an commanding
officer has an obligation to control the men and units under his command
and to know of their actions.  I understand that this is not always possible
- especially with individual actions in the field - but I thought that the
"I did not know" or the "I was under orders" defense for the most part has
not been accepted by the nations at large (espcially if the war crimes were
commited by the losing side).
assume) side composed of Serbs and Croats are accussed of the majority of the
An intresting side show will be occuring in the near future when we may have
victorious Serb and Croat "leaders" being tried by the UN for the actions of
"local" commanders and their subordinates.

Sorry to take this subject off-tangent but I am slightly curious.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:00:57 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: Term

In your message of 24 Aug 1993 at 1443 CDT, you write:
> Can someone tell me what the term FLAK (or FLAC or FLACK) means?
> A Vietnam veteran who spent time in Cambodia "spotting targets for
> air strikes" told me he was a FLAK (sp?). Is this a new term or
> did FLAKs exist in WWII? I assume it is some time of special
> forces designation, but he did say he was not a Ranger. Thanks.
> ***************************************************************
> [email-masked]
> Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.
>

The only experience I have had with the term FLAK is the German use of
the term which is an acronym for Flieger Abwehr Kannone (Anti-aircraft
cannon/gun) rather like their PAK - Panzer Abwehr Kannone (Anti-tank
gun) designations.

As for the Viet-Nam war I know there were a number of US Air Force
personnel who were known as FACs (Forward Air Controllers) who
operated in units known as Aerial Port Squadrons or some such.

Hope that helps,
                        Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 16:11:00 CDT
From:    Shawn Robert Woodford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blitzkrieg...again

Boy do I feel stoopid!  Thanks for pointing out the inconsistencies in the line
 of thought in my post Scott.  The e-mail software is so user-unfriendly that
it is difficult to correct one's thoughts when they go down on the screen.

What I would have said re: blitzkrieg had my mind been screwed on straight, is
that the main lesson the GGS got in its post-war analysis of WWI was NOT that
it lost due to faulty strategic decisions resulting in an opposing alliance of
nations with far vaster resources at their disposal.  Rather they concluded
that they had failed to win the war in 1914 and 1918 because their operational
offensives had been just a shade too slow.  (It was the Soviets that concluded
that they suffered defeat because of lack of resources, but that is another
post...)  This conclusion stimulated the thinking that spurred the development
of German inter-war maneuver theory.

Put in less confusing terms, my contention about blitzkrieg is that it was a
concept predicated upon avoiding battle.  Once forced to give battle on equal
or inferior terms (in bad weather, over long distances from supply bases, under
conditions of air inferiority, etc.), the panzers ceased to achieve decisive
operational successes.  This weakness arose from a conceptual tension within
the Panzerwaffe over the best operational approach to adopt--deep penetration
or traditional encirclement.  While the early campaigns of 1939-40 did not over
tax the combat capability of the panzers, the campaign in the Soviet Union
clearly did.  (I would contend that the Polish, French and Balkan campaigns
were all examples of penetration instead of kesselschlacht operations.)

B. H. Liddel Hart described a battle within the German High Command while the
planning for Barbarossa went on.  Guderian and the other panzer commanders
advocated deep penetrations by the panzergruppen to disrupt the Red Army.  The
Dnepr River would serve the same function the English Channel had in the French
Campaign.  At that point, the panzers would forge on to Moscow and other
objectives in the strategic depth while the footbound infantry divisions would
be tasked to complete the destruction of the cut off Soviet forces.   The more
orthodox members of the German High Command, such as Halder, Kluge and
Brauchitsch had visions of the German Army being swallowed up by the Russian
depths, and advocated a more traditional approach that kept the panzergruppen
tied to the following infantry armies, executing a traditioanl German kessel-
schlachten.  After the destruction of the Red Army in European Russia, then
Moscow and other objectives could be taken at leasure.  Of course, Hitler had
hsi own ideas about occupying the economically fertile Ukraine, razing
Leningrad, and starving Moscow.  In the end, Barbarossa was a compromise
between orthodoxy and Hitler.  Guderian tried mightily to drag the rest of the
army with him to Moscow, but was undercut by the lack of proper logistical
preperations for those kind of operations, the inherent limitations of the
Panzerwaffe and Hitler's insistence on encircling Kiev.

I would contend that Barbarossa was lost before it began.  For Guderian's
approach to have worked, the infantry divisions (or a significant portion
thereof) would have to have been motorized, so that they could 1.) provide
sufficient support to the panzer divisions, and 2.)achieve a tempo of advance
fast enough to prevent the panzers from becoming so isolated that the leverage
effect of their advance continued to have an effect on the bypassed Soviets
(like when a lever arm gets too long, it snaps).  There would also have been
the necessity to provide long-range logistical assistance to the panzer
spearheads.  Even then, it would have been a near-run thing.

The orthodox approach would never have won, except in the unlikely circumstance
of complete German economic mobilization.  Then it would have taken perhaps two
or more campaign seasons to defeat the Soviets.  This would have flown in the
 face of Hitler's strategic vision though, and seems very remote.

The compromise obviously failed.  Even had the Germans taken Moscow in December
1941, they would never have been able to hold it.  Stalin could continue to
prosecute the war, even without Allied logistical assistance, and would have
won, though it might have taken a bit longer.  The failure to properly assess
political goals (unconditional victory) in terms of strategic realities (vast
economic inferiority vs. likely opponents) and operational capabilities
(limited capabilites of German Army) brought the Germans to defeat in both
world wars.  In both situations, they tried to solve intractable strategic
odds with a tactical/operational solutions and failed.

Shawn Robert Woodford, Kansas State
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 18:19:44 CDT
From:    Lee Short <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Miguel Borges wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Aug 1993, Lee Short wrote:
>> bill wrote:
>> >I think it is also a good idea to differentiate betwen war crimes that
>> >were the result of a policy and those that were the result of an
>> >individual going to the extreme in carrying out orders (or even
>> >directly disobeying orders).
>>
>> I agree with this.
>
>I don't.  Not the way it is stated anyway.
>
>So the Nazi leadership is responsible for the death of Jewish civilians,
>but the men that actually carried out the orders aren't?  Or am I
>mis-reading what you guys mean?

I think you are.  What we mean is that in nearly every war there have
been examples of individual soldiers who have committed atrocities.
If these atrocities were not encouraged or ordered by their superiors,
then there is little point in viewing the government of their nation
in the same light as the government of a nation which encourages or
orders atrocities as a matter of policy.

Lee

Lee Short   [email-masked]         This is the sort of English up with which
Software Janitor                 I will not put.
Hughes Training, Inc.              --  W. Churchill
Minneapolis, MN

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 20:30:44 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

>
> As for the Doolittle raiders, I think it was policy to collect them, try
> them as criminals, and (as they were to be found guilty) executed them.
> The Chinese civilians were very harshly punished for abetting the escape
> of some raiders. I forget the number, but it was like tens of thousands
> murdered.

  The figures I've seen were 100,000+. Another failed "object lesson."

> Scott.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 20:52:17 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: TROUBLE: adminb.rferl.org

Hassan, contact me please.
>
> Bad address -- <[email-masked]>
> Error -- Nameserver error: Error 0
>

Larry J

#L.W. Jewell WWII-L Listowner [email-masked]
#"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
#"Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Aug 1993 21:53:43 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese war reparations and "others'" atrocities

Lest anyone be misled:  I should remind our readers that I very clearly
  did not put (any) war crimes by our people against the Japanese "in the
  same light."  If Lee Short implied otherwise, he might want to re-read
  my original post.

What I am looking for is a case where an American soldier refused orders
  to (participate in a) massacre (of) Japanese civilians on Okinawa (or
  Saipan? -- there, though, I understand we went to strenuous efforts just
  to prevent (families of) Japanese civilians from committing suicide.)

Although I hadn't originally asked for a specific case of on-the-ground
  atrocities against Japanese civilians, that might be a healthy
  reciprocal acknowledgement at that.  Just the furor the prospect is
  causing on this net verifies its significance and an apparent need for
  a two-way conciliatory effort.

Incidentally, I do NOT consider the A-bombs as "atrocity" weapons -- but
  for now let's stick to my original question, can we?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 23 Aug 1993 to 24 Aug 1993
*************************************************